Vol. 811 Wednesday No. 219 21 April 2021

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Election of Lord Speaker...... 1831 Questions Mobile Telephones: Public Emergency Alert System ...... 1833 Latin America: Future Foreign Policy...... 1836 Covid-19: Obesity ...... 1839 Care Homes: Guidance ...... 1843 Afghanistan Commons Urgent Question...... 1846 Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities Statement...... 1850 Domestic Abuse Bill Commons Reasons and Amendments ...... 1863

Grand Committee Net-Zero Carbon Emissions Motion to Take Note ...... GC 311 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2021-04-21

In Hybrid sittings, [V] after a Member’s name indicates that they contributed by video call.

The following abbreviations are used to show a Member’s party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2021, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1831 Arrangement of Business [21 APRIL 2021] Arrangement of Business 1832

House of Lords I also take the opportunity on behalf of the House to thank all members of staff, and the Hansard Society, Wednesday 21 April 2021 who made the election possible and ran the process so smoothly. There will be a proper occasion for tributes The House met in a hybrid proceeding. to be made to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, after he retires as Lord Speaker, so I will save mine until that Noon time. But on behalf of the House, I would like to thank him for all his service to this House. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of London. Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I concur with the comments of the Lord Privy Seal and offer Arrangement of Business our congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord McFall, Announcement on his election as the next Lord Speaker of your Lordships’ House. 12.07 pm Noble Lords including the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, the may recall that, when he was newly elected, we Hybrid Sitting of the House will now begin. Incidentally, congratulated the Lord Speaker on breaking through today marks the first anniversary of virtual proceedings. the glass ceiling as the first male occupant of that post I would like to thank the House and all the staff who —there are very few times that us women can say that. have made proceedings over the last year possible. There will be time later to pay proper tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, but at this stage I want to thank him for his service to this House. We look forward to Election of Lord Speaker the opportunity to pay tribute to his work. Announcement This was an unusual election and I think that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, said, the whole House 12.07 pm will want to thank the officials of the House, the Hansard Society, and Mark D’Arcy and Jackie Ashley The Clerk of the Parliaments announced the result of for hosting the hustings. I also want to thank the other the election for the office of Lord Speaker. The successful candidates; I am sure the noble Lord, Lord McFall, candidate was Lord McFall of Alcluith. will join me in this and has probably been in touch already. It was a difficult election and all the candidates showed the best of your Lordships’ House. As those of Message from the Queen us who have done so in other lives know, standing for election is always difficult; you want to win and need 12.07 pm to be prepared to lose. They all showed this House at The Lord Chamberlain (Lord Parker of Minsmere): its best and showed themselves at their best. They gave My Lords, I have the honour to notify your Lordships us an excellent and difficult choice, but from these that Her Majesty the Queen, having been informed Benches we send our warm congratulations to the that your Lordships have elected the Lord McFall of noble Lord, Lord McFall. I have worked with him for Alcluith to be Lord Speaker, has pleasure in confirming many years already, but look forward to working with your Lordships’ choice. him in his new role. Furthermore, I have the honour to present to your The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, if I Lordships a message from Her Majesty the Queen, may add this briefly, I first met the noble Lord, Lord signed by her own hand. The message is as follows: McFall, in the House of Commons when he came up “I thank you most sincerely for your expression of sympathy to congratulate me on a political book that I had in the great loss which I have sustained by the death of my written. I of course immediately recognised him as a beloved husband, the Duke of Edinburgh. I am greatly moved by man of sound judgment and discernment. But over your kind comments and by your sincere condolences, which bring me comfort at this time”. almost the last five years, I have recognised him as a man of action who brings forward his plans to completion and success. No Lord Speaker could have had a better Election of Lord Speaker or more loyal deputy, and no Lord Speaker has ever had a better preparation for the Woolsack as the noble 12.09 pm Lord, Lord McFall. I congratulate all three candidates on the way that they have conducted their campaigns The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) but, today, I congratulate him most sincerely and wish (Con): My Lords, on behalf of the whole House I him the very best of luck for the future. congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, on being elected Lord Speaker, and I look forward to working with him in his new role. I also offer our Arrangement of Business thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Announcement Town, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for standing in this election. As with everything else over the last 12.12 pm year, this election was impacted by Covid, but all three The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, Oral candidates rose admirably to the challenge of remote Questions will now commence. Some Members are campaigning. here in the Chamber, others are participating remotely, 1833 Arrangement of Business[LORDS] Mobile Telephones: Alert System 1834

[LORD FOWLER] away, and the pandemic has identified new uses for this but all Members will be treated equally. Please can initiative. Can my noble friend give us a target date for those asking supplementary questions keep them short when it will be rolled out in this country? and confined to two points, and I ask that Ministers’ answers are also brief. Lord True (Con): My Lords, I cannot give a specific target date, for the reasons I have given. I said that we Mobile Telephones: Public Emergency are ensuring the timing is carefully aligned with the Covid-19 strategy to avoid confusion. However, my Alert System noble friend is absolutely correct: technology advances. Question Our anticipation is that somewhere between 60% and 80% of phones may be contactable by this system 12.13 pm when it comes in. As he and the noble Lord opposite Asked by Lord Harris of Haringey said, we also have to be aware that anything which is broadcast is also able to be received by terrorists. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in introducing a public emergency Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]: My Lords, alert system using mobile telephones. given the imminent obsolescence of the country’sanalogue PSTN system, what assessment have the Government Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, I draw made of the impact their plans will have on the rollout attention to my interests in the register and beg leave of a voice over internet protocol technology and other to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order communication systems, such as the red button alarm Paper. which is relied on by so many elderly people?

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) Lord True (Con): My Lords, the system that is (Con): My Lords, the Cabinet Office and the Department envisaged would be complementary to, and would not for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport are developing a eliminate, other existing means of contacting people cell broadcast alert system to enable people whose in danger and emergencies. lives are at risk in an emergency to be rapidly contacted via their mobile phone. We are currently at the testing phase and, subject to successful progress, we hope to Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con): My Lords, of launch a service soon. course a public emergency alert system is very important, but so too is a prompt response from the ground to any crisis. In the light of the pandemic, has the time Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, the come to update the national community resilience Cabinet Office successfully tested the use of emergency framework, which is, after all, just a framework, to a text alerts in 2013. Last month, according to the Daily proper network, perhaps with the creation of a civilian Telegraph, a cell broadcasting system was trialled in reserve? Reading, 12 years after the technology was adopted in Australia and subsequently by many other countries. Can the noble Lord tell us whether this long-awaited Lord True (Con): My Lords, I again agree with further trial, which surprisingly he did not mention, those who have spoken that the ongoing response to was regarded as a success? Progress in rolling out a cell Covid-19 demonstrates the value of a whole-community broadcast system nationwide is welcome but is not approach when responding to emergencies. As envisaged flexible enough for every emergency. France is to have in the framework, to which my noble friend referred, a hybrid system using locality-based SMS as well. This we have seen how collaboration between local government would, for example, have better protected residents of and central government, statutory responders, businesses, Grenfell Tower and told them that the evacuation volunteers and community networks have all been advice had changed. The successful tenderer to roll critical to the response. While there are no current out a nationwide service could provide a hybrid system. plans to review the 2019 framework, we continue to Is that under consideration? learn lessons and evolve processes and guidance as appropriate. Lord True (Con): My Lords, I gave the noble Lord a brief response and will reiterate the point. The project Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op): But, my is at the stage where plans for public trials are now Lords, as we have heard, this has been going on for being drawn up. We are ensuring that the timing is years. Meanwhile, the Government have been caught carefully aligned with the Covid-19 strategy, to avoid unaware by Russian poisoners, by floods and by the any confusion. Grenfell disaster, not to mention the pandemic. What is causing the dithering and delay? Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for pursuing with such Lord True (Con): My Lords, I do not acknowledge vigour the recommendations of his report published myself to be a ditherer or a delayer. So far as I am nearly five years ago. I recall some difficult times at the concerned, I am satisfied that progress is being made, Dispatch Box trying to answer his questions. Since the since I am answering to your Lordships. I repeat what report, we have had 4G, and now 5G, more people I have said: we hope to make an announcement on have mobile phones, the terrorist threat has not gone public trials very soon. 1835 Mobile Telephones: Alert System[21 APRIL 2021] Latin America: Future Foreign Policy 1836

Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con): My Lords, I was the strategy to avoid confusion. The proposition is for a telecoms Minister when this issue was first raised, so I cell message that drops down and does not collect any am delighted to see the Cabinet Office take all the personal information from those who receive it. It is a blame for the dither and delay. I congratulate the specific approach. noble Lord, Lord Harris, who has indeed campaigned on this issue for many years. I am delighted to hear Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, that we are making progress. Does my noble friend it is extremely important, if we have a public emergency agree that it is very important that we get the protocols alert system, that it works in rural and upland areas, as right for when this system is used? It is a concern of well as elsewhere. I am excited that we can now piggyback the operators that it is not used with gay abandon, but mobile phones on to emergency services. Will my assiduously and carefully. noble friend take this opportunity to ensure that mobile phone connectivity is improved by, for example, Lord True (Con): I agree with my noble friend and piggybacking on North Yorkshire Police and other pay tribute to him, and all those who have spoken, for emergency services, so that such a system of using their interest in nudging—I guess that is the word—this emergency alerts works across the country, in rural as forward. My noble friend is quite right to say that alerts well as urban areas? must not scare or alarm people. The Government intend to launch a nationwide public information campaign Lord True (Con): My Lords, that is slightly wider to support the rollout of the service, to familiarise than my responsibility,but the Government are committed people with the look, sound and feel of the alert, and to extending coverage as far and as fast as they possibly to inform them when it will be used and how it works. can. On the specific question, emergency alerts will be available for the whole United Kingdom. Telecoms is Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): It is great to have a reserved matter, but the Government intend to work a public information system, but we do not know what with the DAs to enable them to use this new capability it is for. This issue is so important because it is about within their own jurisdictions to save lives in an emergency. managing risk. One of the problems at the moment is that it is not always clear where, in government, that The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, all responsibility lies. On 3 March, the Government said supplementary questions have been asked, so we now that they were actively move to the second Oral Question. “reviewing where responsibility for biological security and the strategy sits within Government.” The Minister said today that he understands the Latin America: Future Foreign Policy seriousness and urgency of these issues, and that he is Question satisfied with the progress, so can he update the House now, or write to me if he does not know, on whether a 12.23 pm decision has been made and where that issue sits within the Government? If not, when can they tell us? Asked by Baroness Coussins Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment Lord True (Con): I will have to write to the noble they have made of (1) the need for, and (2) the Baroness on biological security; I undertake to do so. benefits of, engaging with countries in Latin America as part of the United Kingdom’s future foreign Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]: Will the Government policy. provide free phones to those who cannot afford to buy them? The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): Lord True (Con): The intention is for this to be a My Lords, Latin America is an increasingly important cell notice. There will be no charges for receipt of this partner for the UK’s global ambitions. It is one of the service. The noble Lord makes a point about penetration regions most aligned to UK values. Our relationships and the capabilities of different telephones, and some are based on democratic values, sustainable, inclusive people do not have or want a telephone at all. I assure and resilient economic growth, and the championing him that the Government are taking all those matters of free trade. We also have strong people-to-people into account. links and effective co-operation on innovation, health and climate change. Lord Flight (Con): My Lords, in light of the recent record, can the Minister assure the House that the Baroness Coussins (CB): My Lords, despite the Government will now proceed with the implementation Minister’s positive words, Latin America gets just two of a public alert system for mobile phones, which brief paragraphs in the recent integrated review. As could have an important use in any pandemic and well as the scope for export growth, there is huge emergency, now that we have 4G and will soon have potential for UK influence and global leadership on 5G technology? climate change and human rights, not least in Colombia, where the UK is the UN penholder for the peace Lord True (Con): My Lords, I have given that process. Will the Minister ensure that future FCDO assurance to the House. As I said in my Answer, the policy does not short-change itself by ignoring Latin timing has to be carefully aligned with the Covid-19 America? 1837 Latin America: Future Foreign Policy[LORDS] Latin America: Future Foreign Policy 1838

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I precious metals, does he also agree that we should recognise the work that the noble Baroness does in this nurture our relationships with them, based on our region. I reassure her and your Lordships’ House that historic links and the huge good will there, just as how Latin America continues to be an important partner in the past our relations with oil-rich countries were for the UK. The priorities set out in the integrated built up because of our oil energy needs? review, such as climate change, trade, supporting open societies and human rights, are all relevant to the Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I agree region. It has three countries in the G20, more than with my noble friend and assure her about the agreements 400 million inhabitants and strong commercial and being signed. The full implementation of trade agreements cultural links across the globe, so I assure her that with Andean countries and central America, Chile, Latin America is a region where we have strategic allies CARIFORUM and Mexico, and the negotiation of on issues that matter most to us. new agreements with CPTPP and Mexico this year, have paved the way for a UK-Mercosur FTA in the Baroness Quin (Lab): My Lords, I support the future. We will continue to work closely with the region. words of the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and urge the Minister to work with the new US Administration and our partners in the Commonwealth on relations Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, the Minister with Latin America, including on trade, the environment, referred to economic growth and trade opportunities. security and foreign policy. Will the Minister also Some say,I think rightly,that prioritising a trade-corridor confirm that the Government are not involved in some strategy is optimum. As it has the current presidency zero-sum game here and are fully committed to facilitating, of the Pacific Alliance, have we sat with Colombia to not hampering, trade and foreign policy co-operation determine how best to maximise opportunities for the with our nearest European neighbours? UK? If so, what might they be and what is the best mechanism to achieve them? Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that the essence of the integrated Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, we review is to lay out the strategy of the United Kingdom work very closely with Colombia on a range of priorities, post our exit from the European Union. In doing so, a as we do with other Latin American countries and number of our key priorities remain closely aligned partners. We are looking to strengthen our ties across with those of our European Union neighbours and the region, as he rightly points out, by creating the partners, as they are with those of other countries, trade corridors that we require and are in the interests including those in Latin America. of the region, as well as the United Kingdom.

Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, with vaccine Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, on diplomacy tipping Latin American countries further 29 March, Carlos Vidal became the latest trade unionist into China’s influence, is the Minister concerned about to be killed in Colombia. At least 18 trade unionists the current Peruvian elections, where the far-left front- were killed in 2020 and, according to the UN verification runner admires Venezuela; that Chile may soon have a mission, a total of 133 human rights defenders were leader who favours China; and that Brazil’s climate murdered. So what steps are the Government taking and Covid crises threaten world stability? To follow up to ensure that the Minister’s Colombian counterparts on the previous question, is this not a strange time to address this issue with a public policy to dismantle reduce our influence by disconnecting from our European criminal organisations, including paramilitary successor allies? There is an EU-shaped hole in the integrated groups, as stipulated by the peace agreement? Also, review. what is the Minister’s response to the call for the Security Council, which is today considering Colombia, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, let me to create a group of technical experts to assist in that? correct the noble Baroness. As I am sure she appreciates, on a number of occasions I have stressed the importance of engagement with the European Union to our future, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, the whether on human rights or climate change. Many noble Lord is right to point out the challenges that issues that impact those within the European continent remain within Colombia, which is an FCDO human impact the United Kingdom, and we will continue to rights priority country. Indeed, in my virtual visit, the have a strong relationship with our EU partners. On issues that he raised were raised directly by myself her other point on the context of Latin America, we with the Justice Minister of Colombia. In terms of the have strong relationships with different countries and UN Security Council, the noble Lord is again correct. will continue to explore trade opportunities and the It is meeting today and will be hearing from the UN challenges of climate change across Latin America, Secretary-General’s special rapporteur, who will present but will continue to be a strong advocate for human her quarterly report. Wewill remain invested in Colombia, rights. both in the peace process and in the defence of human rights. Baroness Hooper (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend agree that demands on the world’s supply of Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, I remind the House lithium and copper will increase with our dependence of my registered interest as president of the Peru on digital and battery technology? Given that Latin Support Group. Given the serious misjudgment by the American countries, especially Chile, Peru and Bolivia, Blair Administration when they withdrew interest, have some of the world’s greatest resources of these involvement and resources from Latin America in 1839 Latin America: Future Foreign Policy[21 APRIL 2021] Covid-19: Obesity 1840 favour of building up a friendship with China, is it not published on 4 March, which shows a correlation disappointing that, further to the increasing influence between obesity rates and COVID-19 death rates; of China, there is so little mention of the region in the and what steps they intend to take in response. integrated review? The Minister has said that there is a real commitment to relationships with Latin America, TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department so how does he explain to the House this minimalist of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con): My comment in the integrated review on our strategic Lords, the World Obesity Federation’s Covid-19 report interests in Latin America? makes stark reading for us all. It is clear that excess weight is one of the few modifiable factors that contribute Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I to severe symptoms of Covid and, very sadly in some hope that the responses that I have given already, cases, to death. This is a wake-up call. Britain is clearly including today, will address some of those concerns. carrying too much weight. That is why the Government The noble Lord mentioned Peru among other South are committed to helping the country reduce obesity American countries, and I shall give him a practical and get fit and healthy. example. The United Kingdom recently signed a second Government-to-Government contract with Peru worth Lord Robathan (Con): My Lords, I am delighted to over £100 million, which is helping to rebuild schools hear my noble friend’s response because this research and hospitals in that country that were damaged back shows that being obese is a huge factor in deaths from in the 2017 flooding. That is just one practical example Covid, second only to old age. It was described as a of the strengthening relationship between the UK and wake-up call to Governments by the head of the Latin America. WHO, and last week the British Heart Foundation published research that showed that 31,000 deaths per Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]: My Lords, year from heart conditions are caused by excess weight. as chairman of the UK branch of Plan International, The Prime Minister has said that it was obesity that a charity, for about 20 years, I have regularly visited nearly killed him with Covid last year. I welcome the most of the countries in Latin America. The major steps that the Government are taking over junk food, problem always was that people obtained all sorts of but what further action can they take so that everyone, wonderful things and shelves were stocked but no one especially those in leadership roles—be it in schools, knew how to use them. That was rather wasteful and the NHS or, indeed, Parliament—understands that wewantedtodosomethingaboutthat.CantheGovernment, being obese should not be socially acceptable, because given that development is now included in the Minister’s obesity is killing people? portfolio,assuremethattheexperienceof non-governmental bodies that already work in Latin America will be Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I completely agree involved in any plans, as their experience is invaluable with my noble friend that obesity has been a sad and in providing insight into opportunities and areas of tragic driver of death from Covid. Overweight people need? The lesson that I learned was that it was important are 67% more likely to need intensive care from Covid to have someone explain how to use things, not just to than those who are not overweight. The list of the present them and then hope that people would be able measures that we have in place is extensive—there are to put together a prefab school or all sorts of things for 17 in number before me—and we are not going to stop educational use. In the light of the— there. This is a really important project for the Government. It is not our business to shame those The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, please let who are overweight, but it is our business to enable the Minister respond. those who seek to lead fit and healthy lives to take the necessary steps to reach that objective. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I picked up the gist of my noble friend’s question when she The Lord Bishop of London: My Lords, the reduced began and can give her a very to-the-point response. use of school space during lockdown highlighted an Of course, the importance of civil society remains part opportunity for us to make use of school kitchens as and parcel of the delivery of our programme. As regards community kitchens. This holds real potential for my portfolio on human rights, we work closely across addressing multiple issues such as poverty, obesity, the regions, particularly in countries such as Colombia. lack of food or loneliness, all at one time. Will the Government consider supporting school kitchens to The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, the become community kitchens when not in use by students time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now in order to tackle obesity in underserved neighbourhoods come to the third Oral Question, from the noble Lord, where people often have limited choices in their nutritional Lord Robathan. options? Covid-19: Obesity Lord Bethell (Con): The right reverend Prelate puts Question the case extremely well. The community kitchen measures she describes are beyond my brief. I do not have the 12.34 pm details to hand, but I should be glad to follow this up Asked by Lord Robathan and write to her. Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con): My Lords, as they have made of the report by the World Obesity we know, there are no real redeeming features to Federation COVID-19 and Obesity: The 2021 Atlas, Covid but, my goodness, it has managed to magnify 1841 Covid-19: Obesity [LORDS] Covid-19: Obesity 1842

[BARONESS CHISHOLM OF OWLPEN] we have to be careful about taking away people’s sense the obesity problem in this country. As my noble of agency. It is possible to buy affordable healthy foods friend said, it is a real wake-up call. Does the Minister at any price point. Food has never been cheaper than it feel, like me, that we have had enough initiatives that is today.We must put into people’s hands the knowledge last for a period and then disappear without any real and inspiration to take the steps necessary to shed the success? Is it time to put someone in charge of this pounds that need to be shed. serious health problem who has time and real clout to take on the food industry, tackle the root causes and Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]: My Lords, can the work with all government departments to deliver change? Minister assure me that the Government will not renege on their promise to ban the advertising of Lord Bethell (Con): I do agree with my noble friend high-fat, high-sugar and high-salt foods online? Will that the answer to this issue is sustained action. This is he ignore the objections of junk food producers and not something where snazzy initiatives are going to advertisers, and remind them of the similar ban on have the necessary impact. But the key to our efforts is Transport for London when the amount of advertising creating cross-governmental co-ordination—that very actually went up? Reformulated and low-calorie options difficult thing to achieve. We are working extremely generate revenue too. hard with other departments, particularly with DCMS and DCLG, in order to address the kind of housing, Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, the Government cultural, advertising and nutritional issues at the heart take the advertising of unhealthy foods seriously, which of this problem. is why we have commissioned this consultation. It has not finished yet so it is not possible for me to pronounce Lord Birt (CB) [V]: My Lords, the UK has among on its findings, but I assure the noble Baroness that we the highest rates of obesity in the whole world— are looking at this issue extremely carefully indeed. 28% compared with the benchmark, Japan, at 4%. We know,however,that payback on public health investment Lord Lilley (Con): Does my noble friend agree that is high—witness our historic success with cigarettes, the determination of the opposition parties and much safety belts and AIDS. All of us are painfully aware of of the media to pin the blame for the high level of how difficult it is to control our weight, but does the deaths in this country from Covid on the Government Minister not agree that we need a massive and truly has obscured the fact that the major reason why we transformative programme of public health and education suffer from a high mortality rate, compared with other to reverse this deadly trend? countries, is that we are fatter than other countries? Nearly two-thirds of adults in this country are overweight, Lord Bethell (Con): As the noble Lord rightly points and the number of obese people in this country is six out, the cost is enormous: £27 billion is the estimated times the proportion of obese people in Japan. Can we cost to society, and 64% of people are classified as give those facts to people? They can then make their overweight. The challenge is enormous. We have to own decision on whether to take this risk or not. strike the right balance between government action and personal agency. The noble Lord is right that the Lord Bethell (Con): I thank my noble friend for his return on investment is huge, but the Government question. It is for others in the post-mortem process to cannot lose weight for people on their behalf. No amount pronounce on the exact cause of deaths during Covid, of government initiative will shed the pounds. We have but it is an unavoidable fact that, of the 2.5 million to get people to change their behaviours. We are trying Covid deaths reported by the end of February,2.2 million to understand what the right measures are to give were in countries where more than half of the population people the inspiration and information they need to take is classified as overweight; that includes Britain. This the right steps. is a stark fact that, as my noble friend rightly points out, is sinking in among the British public. We want to Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords,this Government’s use this fact as an inflection point—it is an opportunity proposal is the 14th government obesity strategy since —to give people the inspiration they need to take the 1992. Despite 689 policies having been introduced in necessary steps towards healthy and fit living. the past 29 years, obesity rates have increased. Another major indicator is deprivation. Children from deprived Lord Bird (CB): Is it not important to bear in mind areas are twice as likely to be obese as children from the fact that people who are poor and obese are living the richest areas, as acknowledged by the Government’s in a permanent emergency? That emergency starts in strategy. However, the strategy was criticised for not the early years of their lives and carries on; they take going far enough on poverty. Healthy foods are three food and do many short-term things. We must break times more expensive per calorie than less healthy this emergency and remove the poor from it through foods. Can the Minister address this grave and vital education, social opportunity and giving people jobs matter of people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds that raise their wages. Also, social security is often not having access to, and being unable to afford, healthy used as a way of saying, “Go over there and we’ll and nutritious food? forget about you for a certain period of time.” It is the emergency that they live in that we have to challenge. Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I agree with the correlation pointed out by the noble Baroness. We must Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I defer to the noble acknowledge and address the fact that areas of deprivation Lord’s expertise and authority in speaking on behalf undoubtedly have higher levels of obesity. However, of those who live in deprivation. He is a valued 1843 Covid-19: Obesity [21 APRIL 2021] Care Homes: Guidance 1844 spokesman for people in such conditions. However, on Baroness Wheeler (Lab): Can the Minister explain his analysis, I do not think that poor people cannot why the visiting out guidance is not aligned with the lead healthy and fit lives. I do not believe that they road map for the national lockdown? Is there not a cannot make the right decisions for their futures. I gaping discrepancy between the advice for care home have the utmost respect for those who live in poverty; residents, who are advised to keep the number of it is for us to give them the inspiration and knowledge contacts to a minimum, and the advice for care workers, that they need to make the right decisions. who can go to the hairdresser’s, sit outside a pub, meet up in groups of six and then go back into a care home to provide personal care? The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. Wenow move to the fourth Oral Question. Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, these protocols are not tied to the road map because we hold them under constant review. We hear loud and clear the case made Care Homes: Guidance by the noble Baroness and others who make the case Question for change. We are open to making that change when the evidence says that the situation is ready. We expect care home workers to behave in a way that is responsible 12.45 pm and keeps infections to a minimum, but we cannot Asked by Baroness Jolly have protocols for every aspect of their lives.

Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD) [V]: My Lords, I they have made of the impact of their guidance declare an interest: I have a close family member who Visits out of care homes, last updated on 7 April, is a care home resident. People living in care have and in particular the requirement that residents endured over a year of rules keeping them separated making a visit out of a care home should isolate for from family and friends, with the double isolation of 14 days on their return. relatives being unable to go into the home and residents being unable to leave. Although I welcome the recent TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department relaxation of the rules on visiting out of care homes, of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con): My the guidance states that the requirement for a 14-day Lords, the Government do not underestimate the heavy isolation period on return burden of infection protocols on those who live in “is likely to mean that many residents will not wish to make a visit social care and on their loved ones. However, the out of the home.” public health advice is clear: once an infection enters a What is the point of pretending that it is being allowed? closed environment such as a social care home, it Does the Minister understand why imposing a blanket spreads far and fast, as we found out last year. We hope quarantine on visits out feels to many arbitrary, unfair that the vaccines will change this and we keep the and as though it is interfering with their liberty? Can policy under review but, until the evidence is conclusive, he explain why it is not possible for a resident who has the safety of residents remains our priority. been outside for visits to be tested on return and again after a specified number of days, rather than enduring a 14-day isolation during which they are often confined Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]: My Lords, care home to a small room? residents have been cooped up for more than a year. Most of them have received two doses of the vaccine Lord Bethell (Con): I can only express complete and many are becoming depressed at not being allowed sympathy for the noble Baroness’s points. She puts to go for a walk with a family member, or even to vote them extremely well. Undoubtedly, the pressure put in person at the polls. At a recent sitting of the Joint on residents and their family members is profound Committee on Human Rights, the pressure group Rights and I regret it enormously. However, this is not an for Residents told the committee that arbitrary or thoughtless measure from the Government; “the Government’s guidance on visiting out of care homes … is it is to protect residents who have shown themselves to blatant human rights abuse”. be highly susceptible to the disease. We have instances As the situation is easing somewhat, when do the of serious illness and death to remind us how important Government expect to reassess that guidance? these measures are. The noble Baroness is entirely right that the protocols are in place in order to deter Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, the noble Baroness external visits. In terms of testing, the unfortunate puts the case extremely well. I do not deny her suggestion truth is that the virus can harbour in someone’s body, that this is a huge burden on those involved. However, undetectable, for days. We know from protocols around data from the ONS makes it clear that, across care international travel that pre-travel testing catches only homes, when one case of coronavirus is reported, an about 15% or 20% of those with the disease and it is estimated 20% of residents typically subsequently test for that reason that we cannot turn to testing as an positive for Covid—even under the current state of the alternative. vaccine rollout. We remember Holmesley care home in Sidford, Devon, where there were 11 deaths because of Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl): My Lords, a major outbreak. We are still in the middle of the grass-roots relatives’ campaigns such as Rights for pandemic. The vaccine is making progress, but we Residents, John’sCampaign and Care Unlocked describe have to take things one step at a time. this guidance as “false imprisonment”, “barbaric”, 1845 Care Homes: Guidance [LORDS] Afghanistan 1846

[BARONESS FOX OF BUCKLEY] 12.55 pm “cruel”, “treating residents as second-class citizens” and “more scandalous than any Greensill revelations”. Sitting suspended. I want to press the Minister. Can he really explain from a virus control point of view, as the noble Baroness asked, what the risk difference is between care home Arrangement of Business workers who leave those care homes, go about their Announcement business and then return and give personal care in the same home and a vaccinated care home resident who, 1 pm after a family day out to the seaside, has to endure 14 days of solitary confinement? From a risk point of The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) view, it makes no sense. (Con): My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now resume. I ask Members to respect social distancing. Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, there are two points of difference. One is that we can take certain measures Afghanistan to guide the behaviours of care home workers but we cannot mandate for every aspect of their lives. Secondly, Commons Urgent Question care home workers wear PPE and that significantly reduces their infectiousness. We do not ask care home The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given residents to wear PPE. Were we to do so, I think it in the House of Commons on Tuesday 20 April. would provoke suitable concern among residents and “Following the shocking attacks of September 11 2001, their families. As a result, we have to have these isolation NATO allies invoked Article 5 of the Washington protocols in place to avoid the spread of the virus. treaty. An attack on one was an attack on us all. In Afghanistan over the two decades since, NATO has Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]: My Lords, I am a member shown extraordinary resolve in a country where the of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which has soldiering is tough and operational success is very been concerned about the treatment of care home hard won. Some 150,610 UK service personnel have residents over the past year. It is continuing its inquiry served in Afghanistan over the last 20 years. Hundreds with an evidence session this afternoon. As colleagues of our troops have suffered life-changing injuries, and have asked, are not the Government sabotaging the 457 of our young men and women have made the chance for care home residents to have a trip outside, ultimate sacrifice in the service of our country. I pay especially given that staff are coming and going without tribute to their service and their sacrifice. They will not quarantine? The Government’s guidance says that they be forgotten. “recognise how important” outside trips are I served in Afghanistan on two tours—the first, to “for residents’ health and well-being”. Kabul in 2005, and the second, to Sangin, in 2009. My At the same time, and as the Minister has affirmed in battalion lost 13 men on that second tour, with many his answers today, they recognise that their requirement more killed in our wider battlegroup. I have friends for a 14-day isolation period who will walk on prosthetic limbs for the rest of their “is likely to mean that many residents will not wish to make a visit lives, and I know people who suffered severe mental out of the home.” pain that tragically caused them to subsequently take This is insulting and treats care home residents and their own lives. Like every other Afghanistan veteran, their families like children, not as responsible adults. when I heard NATO’s decision last week, I could not help but ask myself whether it was all worth it. Lord Bethell (Con): I completely sympathise with Wewent into Afghanistan to disrupt a global terrorist the noble Baroness’s point. She is right: this puts huge threat and to deny al-Qaeda the opportunity to use pressure on residents and their families. I am heartfelt that nation as a base for mounting further international when I say that I completely agree with her that this attacks. In that mission, we were successful. By fighting has an impact on the mental health and well-being of the insurgency in its heartlands in the south and east residents. However, their health, their safety and their of the country, NATO created space for the machinery actual lives take priority, I am afraid. We are at a of the Afghan government to be established and moment where, even with the rollout of the vaccine, strengthened. Afghan civil society flourished. Schools there is still a high infection rate in the country. If the reopened and girls enjoyed education just as boys did. virus gets into a home it has a potentially devasting There is a vibrant and free media. Women are not only effect, spreading very quickly within the confined spaces valued and respected but are working in Afghan academia, of the home among people who, typically, are highly healthcare and politics. Over 20 years we have developed vulnerable. That is why we have to put in place these and then partnered the brave men and women of the serious protocols. This is done with huge regret and we Afghan national security forces. They are now a proud review it constantly. It is my sincere hope that we can army with the capacity to keep the peace in Afghanistan lift these protocols as soon as we possibly can, but if empowered to do so by future Governments in until the day when the evidence is conclusive, we have Kabul. to have them in place in order to protect lives. Those of us who have served very rarely get to reflect on an absolute victory; only in the most binary The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, all of state-on-state wars can the military instrument supplementary questions have been asked and that alone be decisive. But two generations of Afghan brings Question Time to an end. children have now grown up with access to education. 1847 Afghanistan [21 APRIL 2021] Afghanistan 1848

The Afghan people have tasted freedom and democracy, Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con) [V]: My Lords, and they have an expectation of what life in their country I too pay tribute to the brave contribution and sacrifices should be like in the future. The Taliban, apparently, made by our British forces in Afghanistan. I would have no appetite to be an international pariah like they question the evidence of the Taliban changing its were in the late 1990s. Our endeavours over the past stance. One has only to consider the escalating violence two decades have created those conditions and have in the country in recent months, and in areas where it given Afghanistan every chance of maintaining peace holds control, girls’ schools are already closing. How within its own borders. We will continue to support will we ensure that human rights, and particularly the Afghan Government in delivering that, but our women’s rights, are protected? If we do not, all those military could not stay in Afghanistan indefinitely, women who have stepped forward to take part in public and so we will leave, in line with NATO allies, by life will be left at risk. September. Nothing in the future of Afghanistan is guaranteed, but the bravery, determination and sacrifice Baroness Goldie (Con): We will continue to stand of so many British soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen with the people of Afghanistan to support a more stable, has given Afghanistan every possible chance of success.” peaceful future for the country, and we wholeheartedly support the United States-led efforts to energise the 1.01 pm peace process. We have been clear that the Taliban Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I join Ministers must engage meaningfully in a dialogue with the Afghan in paying tribute to the British Armed Forces who have Government. We have been equally clear that, in going served in Afghanistan, and especially to the 454 personnel forward, the Afghan Government must respect and who have lost their lives. We honour their service and protect the advances which have been made in respect their sacrifice. With the full withdrawal of NATO troops, of women and children. it is hard to see a future without bloodier conflict, wider Taliban control and greater jeopardy for former Baroness Coussins (CB): My Lords, troop withdrawal interpreters and women. The Chief of the Defence Staff is guaranteed to exacerbate the danger to Afghan said that this was interpreters who have helped our Armed Forces. The new relocation and assistance policy is welcome, but can “not a decision we had hoped for”. the Minister reassure the House that the embassy staff Did the UK try to stop the US taking this decision? administering it will proactively identify interpreters What steps will NATO allies now take to ensure that needingprotectionwhocouldbeindangerif theyapproach Afghanistan does not again become a breeding ground the embassy for help? Can she also confirm that the new for terrorism, and what ongoing support will the scheme covers family members and that it will absolutely Government provide to personnel and veterans who not be contracted out to a private company? have been injured in Afghanistan? Baroness Goldie (Con): The noble Baroness makes The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness a very important point. I have paid tribute before and Goldie) (Con): I thank the noble Lord for his tribute do so again to her enduring interest in this issue. The to our Armed Forces and particularly for his relocations and assistance policy, which as she knows acknowledgement of those who have paid the ultimate was updated last year and launched at the beginning sacrifice. I entirely endorse his welcome and kind of this month, is open to all our current and former remarks.In response to his question, the United Kingdom locally employed staff in Afghanistan, irrespective of has regular conversations with US counterparts on a date, role or length of service. As she is aware, they range of issues, and we consult closely.As the noble Lord must satisfy certain criteria, but it is important that is aware, this is a NATO mission in Afghanistan and any of these staff feeling anxious should contact the we were always clear that we would proceed in concert embassy in Kabul however they can. I also assure her with our NATO allies and partners, which we have that eligible locally employed staff can bring certain done. Regarding the noble Lord’s apprehensions, our family members with them to the UK. support of the NATO mission has brought Afghanistan to a much better place than it was in 2001. Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, I salute the efforts of our Armed Forces and of those Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]: My Lords, I development and humanitarian workers who have been too pay tribute to our service personnel who have injured or have lost their lives doing dangerous work served in Afghanistan, particularly those who have in Afghanistan over these past 20 years. That work made the ultimate sacrifice. In his Answer, the Secretary will become even more vital as NATO troops leave the of State said that we could not stay in Afghanistan country. How then can the Government justify the indefinitely, but are there ways in which the MoD reduction in overseas development assistance? By how would envisage supporting the Afghan national security much will programmes in Afghanistan be cut and what forces going forward, perhaps in the sense of training analysis has been carried out to support the decision or other forms of co-operation? to reduce such programmes at this critical time?

Baroness Goldie (Con): We are looking at the start Baroness Goldie (Con): I thank the noble Lord for of a new chapter for Afghanistan. We look forward to his welcome tribute to humanitarian relief workers, consulting closely our NATO allies and partners on who have indeed made huge sacrifices. I am sure that the way forward. Afghanistan is now shifting the focus the Chamber would absolutely endorse his remarks. to the political process, which is an important component As I indicated earlier, what is currently happening in in its journey forwards, hopefully towards peace. Afghanistan is predicated on a wider NATO allies and 1849 Afghanistan [LORDS] Commission on Race Disparities 1850

[BARONESS GOLDIE] Baroness Goldie (Con): The Taliban, if it seeks to partners collaboration to assess the situation and to realise its political goals, has to play a political role look to the future. We are committed to continuing to in a more stable and secure Afghanistan. It must work together in NATO to support Afghanistan during meaningfully engage in that process. It seeks international and beyond withdrawal. The noble Lord is correct recognition, and the only way it can achieve that is that much of the UK’s support for sustaining the through following through on its commitment to engage Afghan national security forces is provided as ODA. with peace. That is what we shall look to it to do and Ministers are currently finalising the allocation of hold it to account on. ODA for 2021-22, so decisions on individual budget allocations have not yet been taken. I think that he will The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) acknowledge that much excellent work has been achieved (Con): My Lords, the time allowed for this question by the United Kingdom in concert with our other has now passed. My apologies to the noble Lords, NATO partners. Lord West and Lord Loomba. We will take a moment to allow the pieces on the board to be reshuffled. Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con): Like many who served in Afghanistan, it is impossible not to have mixed feelings about this week’s news. However, it is Commission on Race and Ethnic nearly seven years since UK forces engaged in combat operations in Afghanistan. I feel that their departure Disparities is less of a question than the sustainability of the Statement legacy of the institutions that we have tried to build there. On paper—I emphasise, on paper—the Afghan The following Statement was made in the House of national army is 185,000 strong and funded almost Commons on Tuesday 20 April. entirely to date by the US. Is my noble friend confident “With permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like that the structure, size and capability of the Afghan to make a Statement on our work to examine inequality national army are sustainable in the long run? across the population and set out a new, positive agenda for change. Baroness Goldie (Con): As I indicated earlier, this is The Government are committed to building a fairer the start of a new chapter. The focus now will be on Britain and taking the action needed to promote equality the political process within Afghanistan. The responsibility and opportunity for all. We do, however, recognise to take all necessary decisions to support the journey that serious disparities exist across our society, and are towards peace will rest with the Afghan Government, determined to take the action that is required to address including whatever decisions they feel they need to them. Following the events of last summer, our nation take in relation to their defence and security measures. has engaged in a serious examination of the issue of Lord Craig of Radley (CB): My Lords, President Biden race inequality,and the Government have been determined inherited a decision to reduce US forces in theatre. to respond by carefully examining the evidence and Either that process had to continue or force levels had data. We need to recognise progress where it has been to be increased with no end date in sight. Would made, but we also need to tackle barriers where they sustaining increased force levels indefinitely in theatre remain. That was why, last summer, the Prime Minister have been a viable option for the UK, given our other established the independent Commission on Race and overseas commitments and the decision to reduce the Ethnic Disparities. It was tasked with informing our current combat strength of our Armed Forces? national conversation on race by carrying out a deeper examination of why disparities exist and considering how we can reduce them. Baroness Goldie (Con): The United Kingdom was always clear that we went into Afghanistan alongside After careful study, the commission made evidence- our NATO allies. We have adjusted together, and now based recommendations for action across government, we will leave together. This has not been a unilateral the private sector and other public bodies.The commission United Kingdom decision. As I said to my noble was established with 10 experts drawn from a variety friend Lord Lancaster, alongside our NATO allies and of fields, spanning science, education, economics, partners, we shall consult closely on the way forward broadcasting, medicine and policing. With one exception, as the focus turns to Afghanistan itself, the Afghan all are from ethnic-minority backgrounds. The chair, Government and the political journey forwards. Dr Sewell, has dedicated his life to education and to supporting young people from socially deprived back- Baroness Helic (Con) [V]: My Lords, I join my grounds to reach their full potential. This distinguished noble friends in paying tribute to our Armed Forces group was tasked with reviewing inequality in the UK, and remembering those who paid the ultimate price. and it focused on education, employment, crime and My noble friend said that the Taliban have no appetite policing, and health. to be an international pariah, yet in the past year they As this House will be aware, on 31 March, the have waged a campaign of targeted assassinations commission published its independent report. I will against journalists, judges, doctors and health workers now turn to its findings. It is right to say that the and have targeted women in public life in particular. picture painted by this report is complex, particularly Do we not see that as the act of pariahs? Do these in comparison with the way that issues of race are killings not warn against any idea that we can rely on often presented. The report shows that disparities do the Taliban to keep its promises and not roll back human persist, that racism and discrimination remain a factor rights or maintain links with terrorist organisations? in shaping people’s life outcomes, and it is clear about 1851 Commission on Race Disparities[21 APRIL 2021] Commission on Race Disparities 1852 the fact that abhorrent racist attitudes continue in society, straight. This report makes it clear that the UK is not within institutions and increasingly online. It calls for a post-racial society and that racism is still a real force action to tackle this. that has the power to deny opportunity and painfully However, the report also points out that, while disrupt lives. That is why the first recommendation of disparities between ethnic groups exist across numerous the commission is to challenge racist and discriminatory areas, many factors other than racism are often the actions. The report calls on the Government to increase root cause. Among these are geography, deprivation funding to the Equality and Human Rights Commission and family structure. For example, a black Caribbean to make greater use of child is 10 times more likely than an Indian child to “its compliance, enforcement and litigation powers to challenge grow up in a lone parent household. Disparities exist policies or practices that…cause…unjust racial disadvantage, or in different directions. People from south Asian and arise from racial discrimination.” Chinese ethnic groups have better outcomes than the The Government even more firmly condemn the white population in more than half of the top 25 causes deeply personal and racialised attacks against the of premature death. commissioners, which have included death threats. In The report also highlights the progress that Britain fact, one Opposition Member presented commissioners has made in tackling racism, and the report’s data as members of the Ku Klux Klan—an example of the reveal a range of success stories.For example, it underlines very online racial hatred and abuse on which the the significant progress achieved in educational attainment, report itself recommended more action be taken by with most ethnic-minority groups now outperforming the Government. their white British peers at GCSE level. The report It is, of course, to be expected that Members will also delves into the causes and drivers of some of the disagree about how to address racial inequality and most persistent and enduring issues. For example, the the kinds of policies that the Government should commission has identified the disproportionate rate of enact. However, it is wrong to accuse those who argue black men convicted of class B drug offences. for a different approach of being racism deniers or Let me be clear: the report does not deny that race traitors. It is even more irresponsible—dangerously institutional racism exists in the UK. Rather the report so—to call ethnic-minority people racial slurs like did not find conclusive evidence of it in the specific “Uncle Toms”, “coconuts”, “house slaves” or “house areas it examined. It reaffirms the Macpherson report’s negroes” for daring to think differently. definition of the term, but argues that it should be Such deplorable tactics are designed to intimidate applied more carefully and always based on evidence. ethnic-minority people away from their right to express The commission made 24 evidence-based and practical legitimate views. This House depends on robust debate recommendations. These have been grouped into four and diversity of thought. Too many ethnic-minority broad themes: to build trust; promote fairness; create people have to put up with this shameful treatment agency; and achieve inclusivity. every day, as some of my fellow MPs and I know too well. The House should condemn it and reprimand There are many things that unite this House. A those who continue with such behaviour. shared commitment to making Britain fairer for everyone is one of them. In the light of that fact, I urge right The commissioners’ experience since publication honourable and honourable Members to take the time only reinforces the need for informed debate on race to read the report’s 258 pages. There is also another based on mutual respect and a nuanced understanding thing that I am sure unites this House, which is abhorrence of the evidence. The Government will now consider of the appalling abuse meted out to the commissioners the report in detail and assess the next steps for future and the false assertions made about their work in the policy. In recognition of the extensive scope of past three weeks. It is true that this landmark analysis recommendations, the Prime Minister has established challenges a number of strongly held beliefs about the anewinter-ministerialgrouptoreviewtherecommendations. extent and influence of racism in Britain today. The It will ensure that action is taken to continue progress commissioners have followed the evidence and drawn to create a fairer society. As sponsoring Minister, I will conclusions that challenge orthodoxy, and they were provide strategic direction with support from my officials prepared for a robust and constructive debate. However, in the Race Disparity Unit. The group will be chaired they were not prepared for the wilful misrepresentation by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. of the report that occurred following its publication, On that note, on behalf of the Prime Minister, I such as false accusations that they denied racism exists, would like to thank the commissioners once again for or that they wished to put a positive spin on the all that they have done. They have generously volunteered atrocities of slavery,or false statements that commissioners their time, unpaid, to lead this important piece of did not read or sign off their own report, or that they work, and the Government welcome their thoughtful, are breaking ranks. I have been informed by the chair balanced and evidence-based findings and analysis. and by individual members that the commission remains The Government will now work at pace to produce united and stands by its report. a response to the report this summer. I assure the This Government welcome legitimate disagreement House that it will be ambitious about tackling negative and debate, but firmly reject bad-faith attempts to disparities where they exist and building on successes. undermine the credibility of this report. Doing so It will play a significant part in this Government’s risks undermining the vital work that we are trying to mission to level up and unite the country, and ensure do to understand and address the causes of inequality equality and opportunity for all, whatever their race, in the UK, and any other positive work that results ethnicity or socioeconomic background. I commend from it. For that reason it is necessary to set the record this Statement to the House.” 1853 Commission on Race Disparities[LORDS] Commission on Race Disparities 1854

1.12 pm than double the rate for white people at 4.5%. What steps, therefore, will the Government take to address Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab) [V]: President structural racism in the labour market? Will the Minister Joe Biden said today that the conviction of a former commit to publishing equality impact assessments of police office in the killing of George Floyd can be a job creation schemes? giant step forward in the march towards justice in America, but he warned, “We can’t stop here”. I would Many of the recommendations in this report lack add that neither can the United Kingdom. teeth. They are repetitions or rely too much on individual discretion. Some simply ask the Government to undo Following the Black Lives Matter movement, the the damage they have done since 2010. Proposals to commission that produced this report had an opportunity fund the EHRC and to establish an office for health meaningfully to engage with structural inequality and disparities are particularly ironic, given that the racism in the UK. Disappointingly, and incredulously, Conservatives have slashed EHRCfunding by £43 million they have produced a divisive and downright offensive since 2010 and abolished Public Health England. Does piece of material. It seems to glorify slavery and the Minister regret these cuts, and does she have any within the underplay of institutional racism appears plans to restore this funding? to blame ethnic minorities for their own disadvantage. This report must be rigorously challenged to prevent The report appeared to downplay the role of structural the decades of progress that we have made in our racism in health inequalities despite the hugely efforts to develop race equality in the UK. Since its disproportionate number of deaths of black and Asian publication, the report has garnered widespread criticism people from Covid-19 over the past year and is out of from groups and individuals such as the BMA, Professor step with the analysis of the ONS. Does the Minister Michael Marmot, all of our major trade unions, which agree that this section is an insult to black, Asian and represent over five million workers, and human rights ethnic minority people who have suffered the worst experts at the UN who state that the report has fatal and financial consequences of the pandemic? misrepresented data, shoe-horned conclusions and The report also downplays the role of structural misquoted academics. My noble friend Lady Lawrence inequalities in our education system, despite very recent said it gave data that shows that black Caribbean children are “a green light to racists.” more than five times more likely to be excluded from The data is misleading and incoherent, and its school in parts of the UK. There have been 60,000 conclusions are ideologically motivated and divisive. I racist incidents in schools in the past five years. What have many questions to ask the Minister in my speech, steps will the Minister take to address the deep-rooted, and I will be content to receive written responses from structural racial inequalities within the education system? her, as it may be difficult to answer every one I pose in The report contained minimal information and the Chamber today. These questions need resolution recommendations on social security, despite this being and reflection on this highly contentious government a key mechanism to end socio-economic and racial report. inequalities. What steps is the Minister taking to address Despite the overwhelming body of evidence, why structural inequalities of race and ethnicity in the social does this report seek to downplay the role of institutional security system? and structural racism in the UK? Does the Government Finally, the language in the report appears to regress share its view? It was reported that a number of to blame black, Asian and ethnic minority people for commissioners say that No. 10 intervened in the writing their own disadvantage. Mentions of family structure of the report and failed to give them sight of the final and culture misrepresent the reality of structural racism copy.These are serious accusations that call into question and turn back the clock on how we talk about race and the credibility and independence of the report. Can structural inequality.Will the Minister reject this report the Minister whether her Government intervened in the before us today in this Chamber? work of the independent commission and rewrote any part of the final report? The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) Does the Minister agree with the foreword by the (Con): I am afraid the next speaker, the noble Baroness, chair of the report? There he remarks: Lady Hussein-Ece, is not present in the Chamber or in “There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which the ether, so we will not be able to hear from her and speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and we will go straight to the Minister. suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.” TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Will her Government reject these abhorrent remarks? for Education and Department for International Trade The report attempts to construct a false binary between (Baroness Berridge) (Con): My Lords, the Government socio-economic inequality and racial inequality,suggesting will not be rejecting this report outright. When I began that racism has less of a role than class to play in to read this report, it did not match, in my view, what producing inequalities. Does the Minister agree this is had been reported in some parts of the media about it. disingenuous and divisive given that so many ethnic I commend it to noble Lords to read. It is 258 pages minority people are part of the working class struggling long, so it will take a bit of diary time to do that. It is after more than a decade of Tory austerity? an evidence-based report; it is our first official attempt The report appears to soften the role of structural to look at ethnic disadvantages and advantages. First, racism in the labour market, but the latest ONS dealing with the theme of the noble Baroness’s speech unemployment figures show that the unemployment regarding structural racism, the report commends and rate for ethnic minorities is more than 9.5%—more stands by the Macpherson definition of institutional 1855 Commission on Race Disparities[21 APRIL 2021] Commission on Race Disparities 1856 racism.Aswestandhere,thedaybeforeStephenLawrence “There has … been a wilful misrepresentation by some people Day,I think it is important to recognise that. It has stood of the Commission’s view on the history of slavery. The idea that the test of time. the Commission would downplay the atrocities of slavery is as absurd as it is offensive to every one of us. The report merely says In the areas the commission was reporting on, the that in the face of the inhumanity of slavery, African people evidence base did not support structural racism findings. preserved their humanity and culture. The Commission’s However, the report is incredibly clear that racist recommendation for Government to create inclusive curriculum incidents, racist prejudice and racism exist today in resources is about teaching these histories which often do not get this country and should be dealt with and condemned the attention they deserve.” wherever they are found. It is not an offensive report. It is important to put accurate comments on the record It does not glorify racism but stands against it. The in relation to the commission’s remarks on slavery. noble Baroness recognised that we are not the Britain We are looking seriously at the 24 recommendations. of the 1950s and 1960s. That is not to say we are a A group has been formed within the Cabinet Office, perfect country. As the report outlines, the commission chaired by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, hopes that it is to look at the recommendations put forward. “a road map for racial fairness.” In relation to the role of the family, the commission We are still on a journey in relation to this. is very clear: The 10 commissioners did this report as volunteers. “We reject both the stigmatisation of single mothers and the They were not paid to do it and are all present, as turning of a blind eye to the impact of family breakdown on the commissioners, standing by the report. They did not life chances of children.” seek to blame ethnic-minority individuals for their lot That is a balanced statement. This is the first commission in life. I regret to say that that is a misrepresentation of to look at the effect of family structure. Like me, many the report. noble Lords will know of families who have lost the other parent due to death. To suggest that we would In relation to the criticism that the United Nations say to them that there is not a huge impact on their has made of the report, unusually, the UK Government children puts the matter in a less political context. have responded to say that, again, that is a misrepresentation of the report. I do not mean to do a I have to disagree with the noble Baroness. As noble disservice to the report but, compared with the media Lords will be aware, I often stand at this Dispatch Box reporting, it is a tad dull in the way its narrative is on behalf of the Department for Education. There written. It is not the stuff of the headlines. The UN have been incredible achievements across education response has misrepresented it. It is not a matter of among certain ethnic groups. We have seen an incredible disagreement here, which we all welcome around reports rise in particular in the number of black African boys put into the public domain, but when that strays into going on to higher education at the moment. I do not the line of misrepresenting the evidence and the findings, recognise the noble Baroness’s characterisation of we have to speak out. The Minister for Equalities in structural racism across our system. That is not to say the other place will write to the United Nations group that there are not incidents within our schools that to outline what we believe is a misrepresentation of need to be dealt with as and when they happen, and this report. we would of course expect any member of teaching staff treating any pupil in that way to be subject to I can quite categorically say to the noble Baroness disciplinary measures. that no, No. 10 Downing Street did not write the report. The communication strategy was by an independent The report is a careful, evidence-based piece of person not connected to No. 10. There is no false binary work that we will look at. It is very illustrative of the here in the report. It is evidence based. It commissioned different achievements in different sectors of ethnic- research from the University of Oxford. It included minority groups—for instance, the incredible educational the white-majority population for the first time in a performance of some second-generation British south-east report such as this. Within our population, it attempted Asian communities—but that is not to say that we do to separate out different groups with different experiences. not have issues to deal with around educational participation in, for instance, the Gypsy, Roma and The noble Baroness is, though, right to draw attention Traveller communities. It is a complex and nuanced to the fact that, unfortunately, Covid has led to a picture that is Britain and England today, and we will recent increase in young, black unemployment. We are look at the recommendations carefully. looking at the response to that. There are various initiatives, funded particularly with some London boroughs,trying to redress that. With Brent and Newham, The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) we are looking at the Black Training and Enterprise (Con): My Lords, we come to the 20 minutes for Group and the Moving Up programme. There are Back-Bench questions.There are 16 Back-Bench speakers, also, of course, some geographical disparities in where so noble Lords can do the arithmetic; if they can keep job losses have been, so we have to look at the granular questions focused, we would be very much obliged. data as to why that has been an outcome at the moment, and at the causes of that, to redress it. 1.26 pm Obviously, across the whole population of this country, Lord Lucas (Con) [V]: My Lords, will my noble we are trying to drive up the skills base and increase friend join me in thanking all those millions of people the profile of apprenticeships in order for people to who, over the last 50 years that I have been politically get the skills that they need. conscious, have made this country a much friendlier It is important to outline the commission’s response place for ethnic minorities? The noble Baroness, Lady to the criticism of its remarks about slavery. It says this: Wilcox, reports that, on average, there is one report of 1857 Commission on Race Disparities[LORDS] Commission on Race Disparities 1858

[LORD LUCAS] Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, as I have outlined, a racial incident at a school every two and a half there will be detailed analysis of the recommendations years—it would have been more like every two and a that are given. The methodology that the noble Baroness half hours when I was young. Does my noble friend outlines is not one that I recognise from the parts of share my commitment to living up to the commission’s the report that I have read. It is an evidence-based vision of how Britain can continue to do better—a vision piece of work that looks at the causes of disparity and of unity and equity, and of shared values, history, at other factors such as cultural issues, family, social culture and future? Will she look carefully at all the class and geography. I will pass on her comments to ways in which the state is supporting the philosophies the commission about the methodology. that seek to set us against each other? Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, the Statement does BaronessBerridge(Con):MyLords,yes,theGovernment nothing to allay the fears of the black and ethnic commend the ambition of this report, which is for us minority community about this report. We seem to to use it as have come full circle from the report on the Brixton “a road map for racial fairness.” disorders by Lord Scarman. A lot of research has I hope noble Lords have understood that, although we been done since then that clearly identifies that racism are not the country we were, and we are not in a and racial discrimination are a daily reality in the lives perfect place—the commission does not say that—we of the black and ethnic minority community in Britain. want to work together. We applaud all those people Socially and economically they occupy the same place who have stood against the injustices that we have seen that was allocated to them in the earlier days, and decline over the years. We recognise that anywhere institutions and organisations have little awareness of racist incidents exist, we all have a responsibility. It is our culturally different communities. Will the Minister not just government; wherever we see such incidents— examine some of the reports by the Commission for many of us will have seen them in our own lives on Racial Equality, which was responsible for issuing public transport and places such as that—we must all legally enforceable non-discrimination notices to some speak up. We all have a responsibility to get to a racially of our institutions? Equality has no meaning unless it fair society. is properly and ethnically monitored. I want to see the day when black and brown faces in this country do Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]: My Lords, the CBI, of not have to look over their shoulder to see if they are which I am president, recently launched Change the welcome. Race Ratio, an initiative to promote ethnic-minority participation in business. The Commission on Race Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I can allay the and Ethnic Disparities made 24 recommendations. fears that the noble Lord outlines, as the report recognises However, the disclosure of the ethnicity pay gap—one that: of the most transformative steps a company can take “Outright racism still exists in the UK”. to address race inequality at work—was not one of them. Surely this should be a recommendation, as It does not detract from that. I will ask officials to closing the UK’s ethnicity pay gap is about making look at the reports that the noble Lord has outlined. our society fairer and more inclusive. Do the Government One report that has been drawn to my attention and not agree that diverse companies perform better on that is in a similar vein was by the Runnymede Trust in every metric and that transparency should be the watch- the early 2000s; the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, was word? While progress has been made on race inequality involved in writing it. We need to look at the causes of over the past few decades, there is still a long way to go. these disparities. We will not change the outcomes for people if we do not diagnose the causes properly. Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, yes, diversity Then, we can get the right solution and change the of governing boards and businesses is indeed a strength. outcomes. That is what we are passionate to do for We obviously agree that people should be paid in better outcomes for all the communities that the noble accordance with their work and that there should not Lord outlines. be an ethnic pay gap. However, it is the mechanism by which we get there that I believe we are in disagreement Lord Farmer (Con): My Lords, I must commend the on. The report states that, when companies publish Government on their considered response to this careful ethnicity pay gaps, they should also publish action and measured report. I have two questions. First, will plans and diagnoses as to how they are going to close sufficient time be given here to debate the issues that it that gap. raises, and early enough to inform the Government’s deliberations? Secondly, will the Government emulate Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab) [V]: My the commissioners’ courage by acting on evidence Lords, I am sure the Minister recognises that the about the benefits of stable family structures and ideology that puts race and gender as always subservient being proactive about preventing family breakdown to economics and class, which seems to underlie this where possible, because of its myriad contributions to report, was developed in the now discredited and poor outcomes for children? defunct Revolutionary Communist Party. Given that the commission was appointed by No. 10, is the Minister Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, it will be a proud that it is the ideology of the RCP that is now matter for the parliamentary authorities and the usual driving social policy at the centre of this Government? channels as to whether time is allowed for debate, but It does not understand what is going on in our society of course, noble Lords have that opportunity as well. and people are rather offended by that. Yes, the response will take seriously the recommendation 1859 Commission on Race Disparities[21 APRIL 2021] Commission on Race Disparities 1860

—I think it is framed as a “Support for Families” Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, with regard to review—to look in more detail at the effect that family Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, the report makes the structure can have on someone’s outcomes, particularly specific recommendation that the Government should educationally and economically. improve the way in which they collect ethnicity data. As I understand it, and I will write if I am incorrect in Lord Woolley of Woodford (CB): My Lords, yesterday saying this, the commission worked with MHCLG, was a momentous day. Derek Chauvin was found which, as the noble Baroness is aware, is working on a guilty of murdering George Floyd. President Biden strategy that is soon to be launched in relation to responded by stating that we must acknowledge and GRT. That will be the main government action on confront systemic racism. In spite of the overwhelming GRT.I know from past experience that the noble Baroness evidence from many, including the medical association, will welcome the action that we need to take on GRT, representing 150,000 doctors, Dr Sewell’s report stated particularly on educational underperformance. that the evidence they found did not show systemic racism. Furthermore, hundreds of thousands of black Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, the report cites the and white young people who took to the streets to evidence that you are six times more likely to be protest for Black Lives Matter were dismissed in the stopped and searched by the police if you are black report as well-meaning idealists but wrong in their than if you are white; that the vast majority of stop assertion of systemic racism. and searches are for drugs, not weapons; and that as a Yesterday the government Minister Kemi Badenoch, result class B drug offences amount to nearly half of who seemed to attack anyone who did not agree with prosecutions of all ethnic minority groups. This evidence her, including the excellent race equality organisation gives rise to the perception, which the report fails to the Runnymede Trust, none the less stated, to my great mention or address, that the police are there to target relief, that no one, not least the Government, is denying black people,not protect them. As the Minister mentioned, institutional racism as distinct from verbal racism. She Stephen Lawrence Day is tomorrow. A witness to the went on to say that it is not everywhere, and I think we Macpherson inquiry into his tragic death 20 years ago can all agree with that. But the report said, and the said that the black community felt overpoliced and Minister confirmed, that Dr Sewell and his commissioners underprotected. What has changed? How can progress did not find systemic racism in this report from the be made if black people do not have confidence in the deluge of evidence, including from myself. Given that report? dramatic but welcome U-turn in acknowledging systemic race inequalities, were the commissioners incompetent Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, in the report or in wilful denial? there are a number of recommendations in relation to crime and policing. One is about setting up independent Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, as I have outlined, safeguarding partnerships locally.There is also, obviously, the evidence that was considered by the commissioners, the recommendation that police forces should reflect as we understand it, is that they did not find institutional the communities they serve. On the point specifically racism in any of the sectors. I will come back to the raised by the noble Lord, there is an innovative specific comments from the other place that the noble recommendation that exposed the commissioners to Lord has raised but I understand that context to be, as an allegation that they supported the legalisation of I have outlined, that institutional racism is a concept drugs because they wanted to see the increased use of that we respect and understand, and the commission out-of-court penalties for the kind of class B possession stood by the Macpherson definition, but there was not that they outlined in the report. Weare looking seriously the evidence base here. Of course it is difficult when at those recommendations but obviously, we know that feelings are running high—obviously, I note that it is our police forces should reflect the communities that an important day today, particularly for the criminal they serve and that everyone should have confidence justice system in America—but when the evidence does that the police are there to protect them, not target not lead you to that conclusion then we have to respect them. that. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, a critique of the methodology may be wanted, but Baroness Verma (Con): My Lords, does my noble these are the conclusions of 10 respected commissioners: friend agree that it is important to consistently measure that the evidence did not lead to that conclusion, as progress, or the lack of it, as we do with gender? This uncomfortable as that can sometimes be. Government have been at the forefront of challenging companies and public sector organisations on gender Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]: My Lords, in this issues. The report agrees that racism is still deeply report of over 250 pages I read two perfunctory narrative imbedded and, exists across many sectors of life, and mentions of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller ethnic that the colour of your skin remains a big issue. I have minority groups—arguably the most discriminated against grown up in this country; I know what it feels like to in the UK—and a few insertions in the Department be discriminated against and called names. It is important for Education tables. They are absent from the sections that we start by examining how employment across on health, employment and criminal justice, where Whitehall is monitored and ensure that career support data exists, often explicitly racist. The report’sconclusions is provided for people entering with non-traditional ignore their situation. Did the commissioners speak to qualifications. Will she look at why, in authorities like anyone, or take any evidence, from these communities? mine in Leicester city where more than 50% of the Does the Minister concede that this kind of omission population is non-white, there seems to be not one can only, sadly, reinforce the superficial and unscholarly person of colour in a director role at the local authority aspects of the report? offices? 1861 Commission on Race Disparities[LORDS] Commission on Race Disparities 1862

Baroness Berridge (Con): I am grateful to the noble we live in an inherently unequal society predicated on Baroness for outlining the non-traditional qualifications race, gender, religion and socioeconomic conditions route to a career in Whitehall. Wehave recently announced such as class and wealth, as well as access. Work the delivery of 30,000 apprenticeships by next April, and undertaken by the right honourable David Lammy we will look seriously at the commission’srecommendation and recently by my noble friend Lady Lawrence directly to have a targeted campaign or initiative in relation to challenges the Government’s assessment and findings, the take-up of apprenticeships. There is a consultation and asks for immediate long-term action to address out currently—I think it was launched only yesterday—on structural discrimination and inequalities as they impact flexible apprenticeships, to try and make those more our citizens of minority heritage. I join my colleagues available. I cannot comment on the employment statistics in this House and the other place, alongside thousands of a local authority. of British experts, including highly respected academics, in making clear that this shocking attempt to misrepresent Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]: My Lords, in 2020 the big and deny experiences of racism and islamophobia will four accountancy firms had 11 black partners out of a be challenged so that justice prevails. Will the Minister total of 3,000. Deloitte had one, Ernst & Young and consider urgently meeting Members of this House as a KPMG had two each and PricewaterhouseCoopers way forward? had 6. The big eight accountancy firms have only 17 black partners out of a total of 4,000. There is also Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, the commission an ethnicity pay gap of up to 37%. Is the noble Baroness outlined a number of reviews, including those that concerned? If so, will she order an independent the noble Baroness outlined, and they were broadly investigation into big accountancy firms? in agreement with many of them. They took the recommendations of the Lammy review seriously, many Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, yes, of course of which have already been put into effect and others I am concerned about figures showing a lack of are in train. I shall come back to her on her kind offer representation like that. There have been various initiatives of a meeting. such as the Parker review and the review conducted by the noble Baroness, Lady McGregor-Smith. We have Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I will go back to been working closely in government on the Hampton- the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hannan. Alexander review and are looking at that piece of Do the Government regret the manner in which this work. I will note the statistics the noble Lord outlines report was pre-briefed by No. 10 in what looked like a when we are looking at that review. deliberate attempt to stir up controversy with independent scholars and lifelong campaigners who have worked Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con): My Lords, to an to eradicate the scourge of racism from our society? extraordinary degree we see racial questions in this What is to be gained by pursuing these culture wars? country through the prism of the American south—a Should action in future not be based on objective subculture anomalous within North America, let alone evidence? If that is the case and we are basing action within the wider English-speaking world. We saw that on objective evidence, why did the Minister not welcome in some of the atrocious and shocking language directed the plea from the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, for at the authors of this report. One MP posted a picture companies to be required to publish data on ethnic- of a Klansman and the authors were called “Uncle minority pay gaps between people with equivalent Toms” and worse. These are not words with cultural qualifications and abilities? Surely we have to make resonance in this country. Will the Minister join me in progress this way. thanking the authors for giving up their time from a sheer sense of service and patriotism to produce this Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, it is deeply forensic and factual paper? Will she add her voice to regrettable, as I have outlined, that reading many of mine in saying how important it is that these issues the media reports and the commission’s report is like are not be left to race professionals, but should allow moving from one planet to another. The commission people like the authors of this report—who have had its own independent communications advice and distinguished themselves as scientists, educators, no one wants to see an issue go from robust disagreement economists, and in all the fields that enrich our national —which is what we have always had a strong history of life—to have their voices heard? in this country—to personal abuse directed at various individuals who have given their time for nothing. As I have outlined, we agree that there should not be an Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, as I have outlined, ethnicity pay gap, but we disagree about the mechanism robust disagreements in this scenario sadly descended to change that. The history of our politics is that we into abuse of the commissioners, which is not acceptable. agree on the ends, but disagree on the means to get The first recommendation ironically outlines more there. work needing to be done on online abuse. I am concerned that the treatment of these commissioners may mean we see people less likely to come forward to volunteer The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) for public services, if that is the treatment that they expect. (Con): My Lords, the time allowed for this Statement has now elapsed. My apologies to the three noble Lords who were not called. Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, and the 1.48 pm noble Lords, Lord Dholakia and Lord Woolley. Since Scarman, again and again reports have reiterated that Sitting suspended. 1863 Arrangement of Business [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1864

Arrangement of Business Lady Campbell of Surbiton and Lady Grey-Thompson, Announcement and others were right to bring the issue of carer abuse to the attention of the House, and I was most grateful 1.50 pm to have a discussion with both of them this morning. I The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) just hope that, this afternoon, the tech of the noble (Con): For the consideration of the Commons reasons Baroness, Lady Campbell, works so that we all have and amendments on the Domestic Abuse Bill, proceedings the benefit of her quite considerable expertise. will follow guidance issued by the Procedure and I fully accept that disabled people who are abused Privileges Committee. Where there are no counter- by a paid or volunteer carer are just as in need of propositions, as for Motion A, the only speakers will effective protection and support as someone who is bethoselisted,whomaybeintheChamberorparticipating abused by an intimate partner or family member. We remotely. When there are counterpropositions, any remain firmly of the view that the focus of the Bill Member in the Chamber may speak, subject to the usual should continue to be on domestic abuse as the term is seating arrangements and the capacity of the Chamber. internationally recognised in the Istanbul convention Anyone intending to do so should email the clerk or and elsewhere. The elected House has agreed that we indicate when asked. Members who are not intending need to maintain this focus and disagreed with to speak on a group should make room for Members Amendment 1 by a substantial majority of 139. who are. All speakers will be called by the Chair. Short None the less, the Government have reflected carefully questions of elucidation after the Minister’s response on the earlier debates in this House, and we want to are permitted but discouraged. A Member wishing to ensure that the justice system and social care sector ask such a question, including Members in the Chamber, deal with carer abuse effectively, while preserving the must email the clerk. Leave should be given to withdraw definition of domestic abuse in the Bill as originally Motions. When putting the Question, I will collect voices introduced. The Government are therefore committing intheChamberonly.Wherethereisnocounterproposition, to a review of the protections and support available to the Minister’sMotion may not be opposed. A participant, victims of carer abuse. The review will access existing whether present or participating remotely, who might criminal laws, safeguarding legislation, regulation by wish to press a proposition other than the lead counter- the Care Quality Commission, the protections available proposition to a Division must give notice to the Chair, for non-regulated care and the support available for either in the debate or by emailing the clerk—this arises victims of carer abuse, including local authority and only on Motion F. If a Member taking part remotely voluntary sector support. We would aim to complete wants their voice accounted for if the Question is put, the review within 12 months. they must make this clear when speaking on the group. Of course, there will be an opportunity—we discussed Noble Lords following proceedings remotely but not this this morning—for organisations representing disabled speaking may submit their voice, content or not content, people and others to engage in the review, and naturally to the collection of the voices by emailing the clerk we will want to discuss the details of the review with during the debate. Members cannot vote by email. the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. I will confirm The way to vote will be via the remote voting system. something that I said this morning: we will not just do a series of round tables. I agree with her that data is Domestic Abuse Bill absolutely key to underpinning some of the work that Commons Reasons and Amendments might need to go forward. The review’s intention is to 1.52 pm address the concerns raised regarding the adequacy or otherwise of the current protections and the support for victims of carer abuse. I hope that, with the discussion Motion A that we had this morning and the undertakings this Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford afternoon, the noble Baroness and indeed the House That this House do not insist on its Amendments 1, will be content to support the Motion and not insist 2 and 3, to which the Commons have disagreed for on the amendments. their Reasons 1A, 2A and 3A. 1A: Because it is inappropriate to extend the definition of Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB) [V]: My Lords, “domestic abuse” in the Bill to include abuse carried out against a I will speak to Lords Amendments 1, 2 and 3 and disabled person by the person’s carer. Motion A, moved by the Minister. As I have stated, 2A: Because it is inappropriate to extend the definition of I will not oppose the Motion. “domestic abuse” in the Bill to include abuse carried out against a First, I thank the Minister for our helpful meeting disabled person by the person’s carer. today; despite the technological challenges, we had a 3A: Because it is inappropriate to extend the definition of very good exchange. At that meeting, I explained why “domestic abuse” in the Bill to include abuse carried out against a I have decided not to pursue further attempts to disabled person by the person’s carer. incorporate carer abuse of disabled people in the Bill. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams Although I think we all agree that the abuse of disabled of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, the House will recall people frequently takes place within a domestic setting, that these amendments sought to bring all carers it has become clear that the Bill is confined to abuse by within the definition of domestic abuse that applies an intimate partner or family member.There is no appetite for the purposes of the Bill. This would include carers to widen its scope at this stage. who are unpaid, such as neighbours and friends, as In addition, this long-awaited Bill, with its multi- well as paid-for carers and people in a position of trust functional role, will demand a great deal of resources who care for disabled people. The noble Baronesses, to change the domestic abuse culture. I would not wish 1865 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1866

[BARONESS CAMPBELL OF SURBITON] Minister’s efforts—even this morning. I welcome any to hold up the task of addressing the horrendous assurances that she can give as to how and when this domestic abuse experienced by thousands of adults and review will take place. Some of the most vulnerable children every day—no way. people in this country are depending on it. I am currently confident—especially after our conversation this morning—that the Government have Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I taken on board the deep concerns expressed across am disappointed that these amendments will not remain this House at the exclusion of disabled people from in the Bill, despite the tremendous work initiated by the Bill. I believe that they are committed to finding thenobleBaroness,LadyCampbell.Shehasworkedtirelessly alternative means to address carer abuse, as the current to bring these issues to the forefront during the debate protections are clearly inadequate. on this landmark Bill. In mitigation, however,I welcome I was therefore very pleased that, in the consideration the Government’s commitment to conduct a review. of Lords Amendments in another place, the Minister, Trusting someone enough to let them provide either VictoriaAtkins,announcedinresponsetomyamendments personal care, or support with day-to-day tasks or that communication, is in itself an emotionally intimate “the Government abhor all abuse, and we have every sympathy act which creates a close bond but also the risk of for the spirit of these amendments” abuse. It is not infrequent for abusers to target the in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. disabled person and befriend them. They persuade the “Abuse of disabled people by their carers must be called out disabled person that this is done for altruistic motives and acted upon ... we have listened carefully to the experiences while, at the same time, they exploit and abuse them. and concerns raised in this House and the other place ... That is The victim will experience the same ambiguity about why the Government intend to carry out a review of the protections power and control versus emotional attachment as for people at risk of carer abuse. We will engage with ... the disabled sector on the scope of the review, but it would broadly any other victim of domestic abuse. seek to examine the protections offered against carer abuse and I should stress that we will expect everything that is the support available to victims. We have listened and we will usually asked for in such a review. The Government act.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 519.] must get on with it. They must ensure they are led by I should be grateful if all sides of the House would experts in the field—including engaging with services strongly support and engage with this review. I hope it such as Stay Safe East which work with victims on the will not keep anything off the table, including further front line. The authentic voices of disabled victims legislative protections if necessary. I hope that the must be heard. It is vital that carer abuse is recognised review will commence as soon as possible. Of course, I and tackled, and that no victim of abuse is left without shall be chasing it and look forward to working with support. Wetherefore support the Motion and the review. the Government and especially with disabled people’s organisations. Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, first Carer abuse—as evidenced throughout the pandemic I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, for her and during earlier debates and pre-legislative scrutiny— words. This morning, I stressed that I was concerned must not continue unchecked. Disabled people deserve about all the abuse taking place behind closed doors to have equivalent protection—no less. throughout the pandemic. Carer abuse is not exempt from that. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, asked, “what else 2 pm is it, if not domestic abuse”? It is abuse which happens Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, I am and about which we have been very concerned during very disappointed at the outcome of this amendment. the last 12 months. With the lifting of restrictions, this I pay tribute to the hard work of the noble Baroness, is a timely opportunity to look into carer abuse. Lady Campbell, and many others in bringing it forward. Noble Lords have asked about timings. These will In the Commons, the Minister, Victoria Atkins, said: be announced shortly. As we undertake the review, we “We should steer away from diluting the purpose of the intend to engage with the disability sector about its Bill.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col 519.] scope. If it is to be meaningful, we must listen to those Shehaspromisedagovernmentreview,pledgingtoengage who have lived experiences. The noble Baroness, Lady with the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, Wilcox, asked if we shall talk to experts such as Stay and the disabled sector to examine the protections Safe East. Yes, we will. The review will be open, with offeredandsupportavailableforthiskindof domesticabuse. no preconceived outcomes. The Government will await Abuse by a paid or unpaid carer in the home its findings before deciding next steps. I assure the constitutes domestic abuse. If it is not domestic abuse, noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and other noble Lords then what is it? In responding to Victoria Atkins, Jess that we will keep all options under review. Phillips said that Motion A agreed. “abuse of trust and power is experienced in exactly the same way as that perpetrated by a mother, a father or a partner”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 526.] Motion B If it looks like domestic abuse and it takes place in the home by an individual—paid or unpaid—who is Moved by Lord Wolfson of Tredegar intimately involved with the victim, what else is it if That this House do not insist on its Amendment 9, not domestic abuse? to which the Commons have disagreed for their I sincerely hope that the promised review is not a Reason 9A. sop to enable the Government to kick this really 9A: Because it is unnecessary to provide for the accreditation important issue into the long grass. I appreciate all the of child contact centres by local authorities. 1867 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1868

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry and promote the child’s welfare. Section 34 of that Act of Justice (Lord Wolfson of Tredegar) (Con): My Lords, establishes the presumption that there should be continued the elected House has disagreed with Amendment 9 by contact between the child and their family while the a substantial majority of 130. The noble Baroness, child is in the care of the local authority. It places a Lady Finlay, has subsequently tabled Amendment 9B. duty on local authorities, subject to certain provisions While removing the requirement for accreditation of and to their duty to safeguard and promote the child’s child contact centres and services in relation to public welfare, to allow contact between a child in care and and private family law cases, it still requires the their parents. Details of contact are set out in a child’s Government to introduce a set of national standards care plan, which is governed by the Care Planning, to which organisations and individuals would be required Placement and Case Review (England) Regulations to adhere—in effect, a form of indirect accreditation. 2010. Those regulations set out the role of independent I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay review officers to ensure that contact is supported. and Lady Burt of Solihull, my noble friend Lady They will consider whether contact commitments in McIntoshof PickeringandthenobleLord,LordPonsonby care plans have been implemented and whether the of Shulbrede, for taking the time yesterday to speak child is happy. In 2015, the Department for Education with me about the revised amendment. While the published guidance on care planning, placement and Government recognise that the provision of child contact case review; further statutory guidance was published centres and services is vital in supporting families and in 2018. That is the statutory architecture. enabling parents to have contact with their children, I turn now to the safeguards in place before each this amendment remains problematic for a number of contact between a looked-after child and a parent is reasons. made. Whenever contact is arranged by a local authority, First, there is not an issue in relation to private law the social worker should undertake a full safeguarding cases of parties being referred to non-accredited child risk assessment, meeting the requirements of the guidance contact centres. That is because there are protocols in for the assessment of contact produced by each local place, involving the judiciary, magistrates and Cafcass authority. A broad range of factors is looked at: the family court advisers, which require them only to refer risk of physical, sexual and emotional abuse, including parties in private law cases to NACCC-accredited domestic abuse, and neglect; the risk of abduction; child contact centres when referring parties in those whether there is a history of violent or aggressive private law proceedings for supported, supervised contact behaviour and whether the child or supervisor is at and handover contact. That protocol has been in place risk; and the parent’s ability to prioritise the children’s with the NACCC since 2000 and was revised a few needs above their own. In outlining all that, I seek to years ago, in 2017. The memorandum of understanding reassure the House that there is already adequate between Cafcass and the NACCC has been in place statutory and regulatory provision in place. since 2018. Cafcass has assured the Government, as well as NACCC, that it is compliant with that memorandum I have spoken about private and public lawproceedings. of understanding. In addition, I should mention that parents can self-refer to contact centre services. NACCC officials themselves However, in light of what was said on Report, I have suggested that very few parents actually do that, have written to the President of the Family Division so any concerns that parents may be self-referring to and to the CEO of Cafcass requesting that they raise non-accredited centres are not borne out by the evidence, awareness amongst their colleagues and officials of and certainly not to any significant scale. the judicial protocol and memorandum of understanding which has been agreed. I understand that the NACCC What is the essential argument behind the amendment? is updating that judicial protocol. It will be agreed Those supporting it argue that there are large numbers with the President of the Family Division and reissued of unaccredited child contact centres and services, to the judiciary and magistrates. posing significant risk to children and parents around Further to that, Jacky Tiotto, the chief executive of safeguarding and the risk of domestic abuse. The Cafcass, has responded to my letter to her confirming NACCC provided some initial data on the number of that she will write to all Cafcass operational managers unaccredited contact centres, but the current evidence and family court advisers, reminding them of the base is insufficiently robust to support legislating on importance of the memorandum of understanding. the issue. While I am grateful to the NACCC for While she is unaware of any evidence to suggest that compiling the data, I have to note that some of the Cafcass staff are not complying with the requirements, “unaccredited” contact centres initially identified by it she emphasised that Cafcass is committed to working in fact turned out to be regulated by Ofsted or the effectively with the NACCC to ensure that every child Care Quality Commission. There is plainly more work receives the best possible service. to be done to understand the issue. The Government That is in relation to private family law. I turn now remain ready to work with the NACCC in this regard, to public law family cases where children are in the but outside this Bill. In particular, I am ready to care of the local authority. Comprehensive statutory explore further whether there is a case for ensuring provisions are already in place determining how local that there are appropriate arrangements in place for authorities should discharge their duties, including in anyone who seeks to set themselves up as a provider of relation to meeting statutory requirements to maintain child contact services to be subject to criminal record contact between a child and their family. checks. In that context, Section 22 of the Children Act 1989 I can therefore assure your Lordships’ House that places a general statutory duty on the local authority the Government are committed to ensuring the highest in relation to children looked after by it to safeguard levels of care and safeguarding where circumstances 1869 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1870

[LORD WOLFSON OF TREDEGAR] There are individual cases of concern, but it is not have necessitated involvement with the family justice appropriate to go into such details at this stage. Yet the system. However, given existing mechanisms within Government’s own recent harm report, which assessed private and public family law,and the extensive regulatory the risk of harm to children and parents in private law environment which I have set out, without further children cases, identified that professionals involved in evidence of a problem we do not believe that this child arrangement cases show a amendment is warranted at this time. “lack of understanding of the different forms that domestic abuse takes, and of the ongoing impacts of abuse on children and victim 2.15 pm parents”. Given my commitment to continue to work with The report identified systematic minimisation of abuse the NACCC on this issue, and to explore further the and unsightly,unsafe child arrangements in an adversarial question of criminal record checks for freelance providers, system with silo working. Some respondents felt the I respectfully urge the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of risk-assessment processes to be inadequate, providing Llandaff, and all noble Lords, not to insist on their examples of courts bypassing risk assessments altogether amendment. I beg to move. and simply ordering contact without assessing the ongoing risk for the non-abusive parent, without considering the risk of potential future harm and without consultation Motion B1 (as an amendment to Motion B) with the child. Surely the Government can see that their own report highlights that staff need specific training Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff on domestic abuse. At end insert “and do propose Amendment 9B That is why I find the Government’s email to me in lieu of Amendment 9— today about my amendment deeply worrying. In it, 9B: In Clause 55, page 35, line 19, at end insert— the Government recognise that individuals can set “( ) ensure all child contact centres and organisations that themselves up outside NACCC-regulated or Ofsted- offer child contact services regularly check their employees, agency regulated activities such as childminding. These people workers and volunteers for compliance with national standards in are not even eligible to seek such a certificate on relation to safeguarding and preventing domestic abuse as specified criminal record should they wish to demonstrate their in regulations made by the Secretary of State.”” commitment to the welfare of those for whom they are providing a contact service. Parents using such contact Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, the services have no assurance that these people, who have amendment I have tabled is a modified and simplified not been screened by enhanced criminal record disclosure version of the previous amendment regarding child and barring service checks, do not have unspent or contact centres. I am most grateful to the Minister, the spent convictions and cautions. Those of malintent noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, for meeting towards children and others who are vulnerable can the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh of Pickering and hide. Lady Burt of Solihull, the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby TheGovernmentsaidthatlocalauthorityarrangements of Shulbrede, and me yesterday. We were hopeful that safeguard public law cases, and in private law cases the Government would want to commit to making they did show that protocols are in place—but, again, regulations rapidly, but, alas, no. there is anecdotal evidence that some parts of the In redrafting I have taken into account the concern judiciary are unaware off the full content of the judicial expressed by the Minister in the other place that a protocol and the memorandum of understanding between statutory framework governing local authorities could NACCC and Cafcass. In some communities where be costly and bureaucratic. However, I take issue with there is greatest suspicion of statutory bodies, child the statement that the Government have not seen contact services may be harder to monitor and are not evidence to suggest that the framework used by the necessarily focused on a child contact centre.An individual National Association of Child Contact Centres—or may be complicit in abusive behaviours being perpetrated NACCC, as I will call it for short—and agreed with or have a history of inappropriate behaviour towards Cafcass through a memorandum of understanding, is children that has gone unnoticed. not needed. A lack of evidence being brought forward My amendment simply gives the Government powers does not mean that a problem does not exist; it simply to make regulation as they wish to ensure that all child means that it is currently going undetected. contact centres and organisations offering child contact I share with the House the words of our previous services regularly check for employees’, agency workers’ Prime Minister, the right honourable Theresa May, and volunteers’ full compliance with national standards who said on this issue in the other place: in relation to safeguarding and preventing domestic “May I say to the Minister that from my experience of more abuse. At a minimum it is essential so that these than 20 years as a constituency MP, telling me that CAFCASS vulnerable children are not exposed to further danger. has an involvement in something does not necessarily fill me with All the personnel involved should have, as a minimum, reassurance?” the enhanced disclosure and barring service checks, She went on to say that and I hope the Government would also require them “it is important to make sure that those protocols are sufficient to have up-to-date specialist domestic violence training and that they are doing the job that needs to be done.”—[Official to be able to detect and appropriately manage situations Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 531.] of ongoing abuse. Unfortunately,because there is no statutory requirement, Wemust not let domestic abuse legislation go through such monitoring is left to voluntary sector services and leave a loophole in our protection of children who such as the NACCC. are victims. It is consistent with the approach in the 1871 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1872

Department for Education document Working Together important for both the family and society that that is to Safeguard Children and with the welcome given by the case. I care passionately about families, and family the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to the law is at the heart of British society. Botulinum Toxin and Cosmetic Fillers (Children) Bill, I will put a point to the Minister today that he has debated last Friday in the House. The Minister said not answered to my satisfaction. GOV.UK states: then that “You will need to have an enhanced check with barred lists “the provisions in the Bill will ensure that young people are from the Disclosure and Barring Service, if you want to look after accorded the highest protections to safeguard their physical and children for a living … Who needs to be checked …You may need psychological health.”—[Official Report, 16/4/21; col. 1579.] to go through a DBS check if you work directly with children or In January 2021, the Government published their run the childcare organisation, for example as a … childminder … … … … tackling child sexual abuse strategy. So, I ask, when childminding assistant nanny playgroup owner children’s will the Government make sure that all those working home director”. with children and vulnerable people are subject to So I ask my noble friend a very simple, direct and enhanced DBS checks? Can the Minister explain why straight question: why are those either working at the Government are resistant to providing the highest child contact centres or offering services of contact protections to children who are victims of domestic being put in a less safe situation in relation to the abuse and potentially open to ongoing abuse or even children they are going to be dealing with than every predatory activities from people with criminal intent other person working with children? who could masquerade as providing child contact Let me remind the House that the noble Baroness, services? Lady Blower, has a Private Member’s Bill going through Unless I have a firm and comprehensive assurance this House at the moment looking to close a similar from the Government that this loophole will be closed, loophole in the provision of education to children and of when it will be closed, I will seek the opinion of aged between 16 and 19, and I support that Bill. That the House, as I believe this House is committed to the loophole shows that safeguarding should extend to welfare of children. I beg to move. 16 to 19 year-olds, and the Government are seeking to close that loophole for a very good reason: nobody wants a terrible incident to happen, leading to a potential Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I court case and huge trauma for all concerned, not am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, least the Government, whose responsibility it is to and I congratulate her on the work she has done in protect 16 to 19 year-olds in education or enjoying this regard and on bringing forward a revised amendment educational services in any setting. So for what reason, at this stage. I declare my interests: I am vice-president as we seek to close that loophole for 16 to 19 year-olds, of the National Association of Child Contact Centres; is a child or family in this case not enjoying the same I am co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group level of protection as they do with every other category on Child Contact Centres; and I am a non-practising of a person providing a service? Scottish advocate, so I did have some limited experience of family case law at the Scottish Bar. I would like to humbly correct the Minister on one point. He stated that those supporting the amendment I thank the Minister for meeting us on a number of were claiming that there are large numbers of unaccredited occasions—most recently yesterday. I took great heart centres at risk of domestic abuse. That has never been from his confirmation, which his official gave us on our claim. Our claim is that this small category is the call, that the Government indeed have the power unacceptable because it is putting children at risk, and to make the regulations we are requesting, so that this they are the most vulnerable in society. I would just amendment would not be needed. I draw attention to like to correct my noble friend on that single point. the letter sent by email today following the meeting yesterday, which states: 2.30 pm “At the meeting yesterday I indicated that my officials would look at the DBS regulations, to assess whether these could be As for the judicial protocol, the very fact that it is amended to apply to individuals setting up contact centres and being revised by the National Association of Child services, outside of the NACCC accredited services, in order to Contact Centres goes to the heart of the fact that it is provide a level of safeguarding for both children and parents.” not working. As all those involved in the judicial I would like to know why the Minister has drawn back protocol agree,including Cafcass and the Family Division, from what I understood was a clear commitment to it is not working as intended. I welcome the fact that it make these regulations. is under review, but we have to pause and point out to I remind the Minister that this is my second attempt my noble friend that it is not working as it should. I at supporting this amendment. I had a Private Member’s think we have established that there are instances Bill some two Parliaments ago as a relatively new where it could work better, and that is of great concern Member of this House on this precise point. I welcome to us and raises questions as to why the MoU is the fact that the Minister and others spoke in previous perhaps not being as respected as all those involved stages in support of this amendment, including the would hope. noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Burt, and the Regarding the allegations that we have not put noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. Our starting point is sufficient evidence, to my noble friend’s satisfaction, in simply, as the Minister explained, that we want to the public domain as to why the amendment is needed, ensure that in a family breakdown, the break-up of a I make a plea to his human side and hope he will marriage or any other relationship, the absent parent— realise that this is a deeply sensitive area. It is very normally the father, but possibly the mother—will difficult, given the nature of some of these issues— continue to have contact with the child. It is extremely I know that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is well 1873 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1874

[BARONESS MCINTOSH OF PICKERING] courts—not that they are all up to speed in using versed in them, as a practitioner—to put many of registered child contact centres—while the main problem these cases in the public domain and, in the limited lies elsewhere, in less formally constituted organisations time available, we have refrained from doing so. Perhaps sent by local authorities and other cash-strapped bodies. the Government should take it upon themselves to The Government seem to think that the existing guidelines look for this evidence, rather than a cash-strapped will filter through by osmosis to everyone who is voluntary organisation such as the National Association commissioning a child contact. There is a lack of of Child Contact Centres, which is working to keep awareness on the part of courts and local authorities our children safe. and, if an unfortunate incident occurs because centre I am clearly disappointed at the Government’s staff have not been trained properly and a child suffers apparently dismissive refusal to recognise this issue. or is put in jeopardy, the likely outcome is that the This amendment is actually doing the Government matter will be hushed up. We will not hear about it in and families a great service by pointing out a loophole the public domain, which is why it is difficult to in the law, as we have done previously. The type of provide evidence on the extent of the problem. screening that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has The revised amendment we are discussing today is encapsulated in this amendment is precisely what is far less prescriptive than its predecessor previously needed to close the loophole and to ensure that those discussed by your Lordships. As noble Lords have working in the public setting, through local authorities, said, it simply applies the same criteria to child contact and the private setting, to which the Minister referred, centre staff as to anyone working with children— for are covered by the same provisions. As I have informed example, a DBS check. The requirement for a register those who need to know, I will support this if it is is gone. No protocol and no policies are being stipulated: pressed to a vote. that will be down to the Government themselves. A child minder or a nursery assistant will have the Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]: My Lords, I support same requirement imposed on them. These are national the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay of Llandaff and standards for anyone working with children, so who Lady McIntosh of Pickering, particularly Lady McIntosh could argue that this bare minimum should not be in what she has said about child contact centres and applied to child contact centre staff, volunteers or organisations offering child contact which are not agency workers? The national standards and regulations accredited. It seems to me, as a matter of principle, would be for the Government to determine. that all contact centres and organisations involved in For goodness’ sake, let us at least weed out the bad providing this crucial service should be accredited in people, so that we do not expose our children to them some way or another. As for the idea that they can set at arguably the most vulnerable time of their lives. For up without anybody having to check, it seems blindingly that reason, if the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, decides obvious that this should not happen. to test the opinion of the House, I and my party will As a judge, I used to be very involved with the support her. National Association of Child Contact Centres, and with individual contact centres. I was a patron of Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab): My Lords, as is several of them, so I have some knowledge of the often the case, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady importance of child contact centres as places where Butler-Sloss, put the point simply and persuasively: children can meet their parents or parent. It is crucial that there should be common standards for all those that the safeguarding issue be recognised in such a way who provide services under child contact centres. that no one can fall through the gap, so I support this We have heard about the welcome exchange of amendment. views between the signatories to this amendment and the Minister. In the email we received from him, he The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD): Before seemed to acknowledge that the DBS regulations should we come to the winding-up speakers, does anyone in be assessed, and potentially amended, to see whether the Chamber wish to speak who is not on the list? If they apply to individuals setting up contact centres—so, not, I call the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull. he has acknowledged that deficiency in the existing arrangements.Furthertothat,intheconcludingparagraph Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, I am very of the Minister’s email he undertakes to ensure that grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay of Llandaff appropriate arrangements are in place for anyone who and Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and to others whose seeks to set up as a provider, and to explore further knowledge far exceeds my own, for all their efforts to whether that is indeed the case. bring this amendment forward. I have to join my The starting point is that there are uneven levels of cross-party colleagues in expressing disappointment at regulation across the network of child contact centre the Government’s eventual response to this amendment, providers. I accept what the Minister has said regarding despite the undoubted work and good will of the private law in our courts and that the existing Minister. memorandum of understanding is going to be updated The Minister in the Commons, Victoria Atkins, and revised, but that very fact maybe an acknowledgement seemed to consider that a letter from the noble Lord, that improvements are needed. I have to say, speaking Lord Wolfson, to the President of the Family Division as a family magistrate, that all the child contact centres and the chief officer of Cafcass requesting that they I have ever referred children to have been accredited “raise awareness” would resolve the issue. It will not. by the NACCC. The Minister also set out the existing The problem here is that the Government are talking public law statutory architecture, which is more complex, about one thing, the formal requests from the family but as so many speakers have said in this debate, we 1875 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1876 are talking about private providers—providers who case for ensuring that there are appropriate arrangements may come and go and may come from particular in place for anyone who seeks to set themselves up as a communities which do not trust existing services. Those provider of child contact centres to be subject to are the difficult cases that we are seeking to include in criminal record checks. The issue is that the regulations this extension of regulation. with regard to DBS are about eligibility for DBS checks, As the Minister will be aware, we are talking about not whether they are mandatory.” some very difficult cases—cases which are difficult to I suspect that where we end up is on the question of put in the public domain—and a few cases, not the whether there is a proper basis to legislate in this many cases which he claimed. The Bill is an opportunity space, given my assurances that we would be looking to close this loophole. We on the Labour Benches will at the DBS point and that there is no cogent evidence support the amendment in the name of the noble that the current system is not working. The protocol is Baroness, Lady Finlay, if she chooses to press it to a in place and has been endorsed at the highest level by vote. the judiciary and Cafcass. There are statutory and regulatory requirements in the public law cases. Indeed, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con): My Lords, I am the only first-hand evidence which we have heard this grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this afternoon from the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of debate. I am mindful of the views which have been Shulbrede, has been that the matter is working well. expressed across the House. I start with a point on As he confirmed, he sends his cases to an accredited behalf of the Government and of myself. So far as the centre only. Government are concerned, like the noble Baroness, Thatistheposition.Evenatthislatestage,Irespectfully Lady Finlay of Llandaff, they are committed to the invite the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, to welfare of children—that is not a phrase with which withdraw the amendment. any of us would disagree. For myself, if I may accept the point put by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, I am Pickering, I do have a human side. Notwithstanding most grateful to all who have spoken, and particularly that I am a lawyer and a Government Minister,something to my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss for of a human side still pokes through occasionally. her support, which I view as weighty. I stress to the There is nothing between us on the aim; what is House that a call for common standards seems to have between us is the means. I therefore remind the House come through in all the speeches in support of my of two points. First, of course anything said by the amendment. I am slightly concerned that the Government noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in this decry an evidence base because I have seen no evidence area has to be heard with care and listened to diligently, that they have undertaken a systematic review of the but it is the case already that the vast majority of standards of all the child contact centres and services people in child contact centres will have to have certain around, nor have they looked at them systematically. checks through NACCC accreditation and because of When they asked for evidence, we brought it, and did the local authority obligations. That is the first general what we could in the time available, and now it is being point. dismissed as anecdotal. We have gone round in circles The second general point in response to one of the and I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House. points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, is that the fact that the memorandum of 2.47 pm understanding is being updated and revised is no indication whatever that there is a problem with it. For Division conducted remotely on Motion B1 example, one of the revisions which is being made is to substitute the name of the previous President of the Contents 298; Not-Contents 240. Family Division, Sir James Munby, with the name of the new president, Sir Andrew McFarlane. Updating Motion B1 agreed. and revision of an MoU does not indicate that there is a problem. A lot of very good documents are continually Division No. 1 updated and revised. One is therefore back to the essential point, which CONTENTS is: what is the evidence which underpins the proposed Adams of Craigielea, B. Barker, B. amendment? It is all very well to talk of a loophole, Addington, L. Beecham, L. but the real question is whether there is an underlying Adonis, L. Beith, L. problem. It is the evidence base with which we have Alderdice, L. Benjamin, B. concerns. I say with genuine respect to the noble Allan of Hallam, L. Bennett of Manor Castle, B. Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, that anecdotal Alli, L. Berkeley of Knighton, L. evidence is not a sufficient basis in this area on which Alliance, L. Berkeley, L. Alton of Liverpool, L. Best, L. we should be legislating. Of course, staff must be trained Amos, B. Bichard, L. and we must look to see whether there are legislative Anderson of Ipswich, L. Billingham, B. gaps, but we have to proceed on proper evidence. Anderson of Swansea, L. Blackstone, B. So far as my email is concerned, I do not pull back Andrews, B. Blake of Leeds, B. from that at all; I stand by every single word of it. In Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Blower, B. Bach, L. Blunkett, L. particular, with regard to DBS checks, I am happy to Bakewell of Hardington Boateng, L. repeat from the Dispatch Box precisely what I said in Mandeville, B. Bowles of Berkhamsted, B. the email: “I am ready to explore whether there is a Bakewell, B. Bowness, L. 1877 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1878

Boycott, B. Harris of Haringey, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Smith of Newnham, B. Bradley, L. Harris of Richmond, B. B. Snape, L. Bragg, L. Haskel, L. Monks, L. Soley, L. Brennan, L. Hay of Ballyore, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Somerset, D. Brinton, B. Hayman of Ullock, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Stephen, L. Broers, L. Hayman, B. Morris of Yardley, B. Stern of Brentford, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Neuberger, B. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Brown of Cambridge, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Newby, L. Stirrup, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Henig, B. Newlove, B. Stone of Blackheath, L. Northover, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Nye, B. Bruce of Bennachie, L. Storey, L. Hollins, B. Oates, L. Bryan of Partick, B. Hoyle, L. Strasburger, L. Bull, B. O’Loan, B. Humphreys, B. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Stunell, L. Burt of Solihull, B. Hunt of Bethnal Green, B. Suttie, B. Butler of Brockwell, L. Paddick, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Taverne, L. Butler-Sloss, B. Hussain, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Campbell of Pittenweem, L. Pannick, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Parminter, B. Teverson, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Janke, B. Patel of Bradford, L. Carter of Coles, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Patel, L. Thomas of Cwmgiedd, L. Cashman, L. Jolly, B. Pinnock, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Chakrabarti, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Pitkeathley, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. Chapman of Darlington, B. Jones of Moulsecoomb, B. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Thornhill, B. Chidgey, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Prashar, B. Thornton, B. Clancarty, E. Jones, L. Primarolo, B. Tope, L. Clark of Kilwinning, B. Kakkar, L. Purvis of Tweed, L. Touhig, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Kennedy of Cradley, B. Puttnam, L. Triesman, L. Clement-Jones, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Quin, B. Turnberg, L. Coaker, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. Collins of Highbury, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Randerson, B. Tyler, L. Corston, B. Kerslake, L. Razzall, L. Uddin, B. Cotter, L. Kestenbaum, L. Rebuck, B. Vaux of Harrowden, L. Craig of Radley, L. Khan of Burnley, L. Redesdale, L. Verjee, L. Craigavon, V. Kidron, B. Rees of Ludlow, L. Walker of Aldringham, L. Crawley, B. Kilclooney, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Cunningham of Felling, L. Kingsmill, B. Rennard, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Davies of Brixton, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Ricketts, L. Walmsley, B. Davies of Oldham, L. Kramer, B. Ritchie of Downpatrick, B. Watkins of Tavistock, B. Deech, B. Krebs, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Dholakia, L. Laming, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Watts, L. Dodds of Duncairn, L. Lane-Fox of Soho, B. Rooker, L. Wellington, D. Donaghy, B. Lawrence of Clarendon, B. Rosser, L. West of Spithead, L. Doocey, B. Layard, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Wheatcroft, B. D’Souza, B. Lea of Crondall, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Wheeler, B. Dubs, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Russell of Liverpool, L. Whitaker, B. Eames, L. Leitch, L. Sandwich, E. Whitty, L. Elder, L. Lennie, L. Sawyer, L. Wigley, L. Evans of Watford, L. Levy, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. Wilcox of Newport, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Scriven, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Featherstone, B. Lincoln, Bp. Sharkey, L. Wills, L. Filkin, L. Lipsey, L. Sheehan, B. Wilson of Dinton, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Lister of Burtersett, B. Sherlock, B. Winston, L. Foster of Bath, L. London, Bp. Shipley, L. Woodley, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Ludford, B. Simon, V. Worcester, Bp. Fox, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Skidelsky, L. Wrigglesworth, L. Freyberg, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Smith of Basildon, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Gale, B. L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Macpherson of Earl’s Court, Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Young of Old Scone, B. Geidt, L. L. German, L. Mallalieu, B. NOT CONTENTS Giddens, L. Mandelson, L. Glasgow, E. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Aberdare, L. Bhatia, L. Goddard of Stockport, L. L. Agnew of Oulton, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Golding, B. Masham of Ilton, B. Altmann, B. Blencathra, L. Goudie, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. Bloomfield of Hinton Grantchester, L. Mawson, L. Arbuthnot of Edrom, L. Waldrist, B. Green of Deddington, L. Maxton, L. Arran, E. Borwick, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. McAvoy, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Botham, L. Greengross, B. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Astor of Hever, L. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Greenway, L. L. Balfe, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Grender, B. McDonagh, B. Barran, B. Brady, B. Grey-Thompson, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Barwell, L. Bridgeman, V. Grocott, L. McIntosh of Pickering, B. Bates, L. Bridges of Headley, L. Hain, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Bellingham, L. Brookeborough, V. Hamwee, B. McNally, L. Benyon, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. McNicol of West Kilbride, L. Berridge, B. Browning, B. Hanworth, V. Meacher, B. Bertin, B. Brownlow of Shurlock Row, Harries of Pentregarth, L. Merron, B. Bethell, L. L. 1879 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1880

Buscombe, B. Hill of Oareford, L. Robathan, L. Stroud, B. Caine, L. Hodgson of Abinger, B. Rock, B. Sugg, B. Caithness, E. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Rogan, L. Suri, L. Callanan, L. L. Rose of Monewden, L. Swinfen, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Hoey, B. Saatchi, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Carrington of Fulham, L. Hogg, B. Sanderson of Welton, B. Taylor of Warwick, L. Cathcart, E. Hooper, B. Sarfraz, L. Tebbit, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Horam, L. Sater, B. Trefgarne, L. Chisholm of Owlpen, B. Howard of Lympne, L. Scott of Bybrook, B. Trenchard, V. Clarke of Nottingham, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Seccombe, B. True, L. Coe, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Ullswater, V. Colgrain, L. James of Blackheath, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Vaizey of Didcot, L. Colwyn, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sharpe of Epsom, L. Vere of Norbiton, B. Cormack, L. Johnson of Marylebone, L. Sheikh, L. Verma, B. Courtown, E. Jopling, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Vinson, L. Couttie, B. Kamall, L. Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. Wakeham, L. Crathorne, L. Keen of Elie, L. Shields, B. Waldegrave of North Hill, L. Cruddas, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Shinkwin, L. Wasserman, L. Cumberlege, B. Kirkham, L. Shrewsbury, E. Wei, L. Davies of Gower, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. Smith of Hindhead, L. Wharton of Yarm, L. De Mauley, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Spencer of Alresford, L. Whitby, L. Deben, L. Lancaster of Kimbolton, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Willetts, L. Deighton, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Sterling of Plaistow, L. Williams of Trafford, B. Dobbs, L. Lansley, L. Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, Wolfson of Tredegar, L. Duncan of Springbank, L. Leigh of Hurley, L. L. Wyld, B. Dunlop, L. Lexden, L. Stewart of Dirleton, L. Young of Cookham, L. Eaton, B. Lilley, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Young of Graffham, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Lindsay, E. Strathclyde, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Eccles, V. Lingfield, L. Empey, L. Liverpool, E. 3.02 pm Etherton, L. Livingston of Parkhead, L. Evans of Bowes Park, B. Lothian, M. Fairfax of Cameron, L. Lucas, L. Motion C Fairhead, B. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Mancroft, L. Moved by Lord Wolfson of Tredegar Farmer, L. Manzoor, B. Faulks, L. Marlesford, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendment 33, Fink, L. Maude of Horsham, L. to which the Commons have disagreed for their Finkelstein, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Reason 33A. Fleet, B. McDonald of Salford, L. Flight, L. McGregor-Smith, B. 33A: Because it is unnecessary and is contrary to Fookes, B. McInnes of Kilwinning, L. the principle of judicial independence. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. McLoughlin, L. Foster of Oxton, B. Mendoza, L. Fox of Buckley, B. Meyer, B. Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con): My Lords, the Framlingham, L. Mobarik, B. elected House has disagreed with Amendment 33 and Fraser of Craigmaddie, B. Mone, B. Freud, L. Montrose, D. by a substantial majority, in this case of 143. In Frost, L. Morgan of Cotes, B. inviting this House not to insist on the amendment, I Fullbrook, B. Morris of Bolton, B. first take the opportunity to underline the Government’s Gadhia, L. Morrissey, B. recognition that comprehensive, high-quality and up-to- Gardiner of Kimble, L. Moylan, L. date training on domestic abuse is of critical importance Gardner of Parkes, B. Moynihan, L. Garnier, L. Murphy, B. for judges and magistrates involved in family proceedings. Geddes, L. Nash, L. Perhaps I may also take a moment again to record Gilbert of Panteg, L. Neville-Jones, B. my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, and Glenarthur, L. Neville-Rolfe, B. other noble Lords who have taken time to discuss this Glendonbrook, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Godson, L. B. matter with me, including most recently on a call to Gold, L. Noakes, B. which the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Goldie, B. Northbrook, L. was also party. While the Government recognise that Goldsmith of Richmond Norton of Louth, L. victims and survivors of domestic abuse can face Park, L. O’Shaughnessy, L. difficulty in the family justice system, especially during Goodlad, L. Parkinson of Whitley Bay, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Patten, L. proceedings and in particular when giving evidence in Greenhalgh, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. them, there are serious and fundamental concerns Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Penn, B. with regard to the substance of Amendment 33. Grimstone of Boscobel, L. Pickles, L. The first point is a constitutional one, which I have Hailsham, V. Pidding, B. Hallett, B. Polak, L. made on previous occasions but reiterate today.Training Hamilton of Epsom, L. Rana, L. for the judiciary is the responsibility not of the Hammond of Runnymede, L. Randall of Uxbridge, L. Government but of the Lord Chief Justice—not the Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, L. Ranger, L. Chancellor. The elected House disagreed with this Harris of Peckham, L. Rawlings, B. amendment on the basis—correctly,I would submit—that Haselhurst, L. Reay, L. Hayward, L. Redfern, B. it fundamentally undermines the important constitutional Henley, L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. principle of judicial independence. We have a number Herbert of South Downs, L. Risby, L. of constitutional principles in this country; some have 1881 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1882

[LORD WOLFSON OF TREDEGAR] As part of my departmental responsibilities, I meet been debated in your Lordships’ House in the last regularly—albeit at the moment virtually—with the several months. But perhaps I may venture that judicial President of the Family Division. My last such meeting independence is among the most important principles, was, in fact, yesterday and we discussed judicial training if not the most important. on domestic abuse in the context of this amendment. The statutory responsibility for ensuring that the He has given me his categoric assurance about the judiciary in England and Wales is properly trained importance he places on effective training in the area rightly sits with the Lord Chief Justice and is exercised of domestic abuse. He has said that the training will by way of the Judicial College. My right honourable continue and, importantly, that it will be updated in friend the Lord Chancellor does not have a role beyond light of the Bill, the harm panel, and the recent Court providing the resources required by the judiciary,through of Appeal judgments in four conjoined domestic abuse which the Judicial College is funded. As such, the cases.Lady Justice King has given me the same assurances. Lord Chancellor simply cannot direct the judiciary on Specifically, I have been assured that the Judicial College training with either a strategy or timetable, as would already has in hand the training that will be required be required by this amendment. as a result of this Bill, which is a landmark piece of Amendment 33B would therefore replace the reference legislation, as we all agree. to the Secretary of State in the original amendment While I respectfully commend my noble friend Lady with one to the Lord Chancellor. That correctly reflects Helic for raising this important issue, for the reasons I the constitutional role of the Lord Chancellor, who, as have set out, specifically the constitutional and practical opposed to the Secretary of State, has duties in respect reasons, I respectfully ask her and all noble Lords of the judiciary. The amendment also adds the Lord not to insist on Amendment 33 or to press new Chief Justice to the list of those who must be consulted Amendment 33B in its stead. I beg to move. before the strategy and timetable are published. However, it does not alter the fundamental way in which these amendments impinge, I suggest, on the independence Motion C1 (as an amendment to Motion C) of the judiciary. That is the first point and it is an Moved by Baroness Helic important constitutional proposition. The second is a practical point. It is already mandatory At end insert “and do propose Amendment 33B for any judge or magistrate to have training in domestic in lieu of Amendment 33— abuse before they hear cases in the family court. More than 50% of the content of private law induction 33B: After Clause 64, insert the following new Clause— training for judges is now focused on domestic abuse, “Training such is the judiciary’s recognition of its importance. (1) The Lord Chancellor must within six months of the There is not only induction training but ongoing training passage of this Act publish— as well. Continuation training annually is compulsory (a) a strategy for providing specialist training for all magistrates for judges and any judge authorised to hear public and judges hearing cases in family proceedings in the Family Courts concerning rape, sexual and domestic abuse and coercive family law cases must also attend the appropriate control; and seminar for that authorisation at least once every three (b) a timetable for the delivery of the training mentioned in years. subsection (1)(a), to include the training of all judges and magistrates Domestic abuse is covered in all family law cases who are already hearing or who are to be appointed to hear run by the Judicial College, and training reflects the Family cases and to include continuing professional development wide nature of domestic abuse. Therefore, it covers all training for all such judges and magistrates. areas recognised by the Government as abuse, ranging (2) The training mentioned in subsection (1)(a) must include from serious sexual and other assaults, emotional but is not limited to training concerning— abuse to coercive or controlling behaviour, including (a) the impact upon victims and witnesses, both adults and financial coercion and control. Let me explain what children, of the trauma of rape, sexual and domestic abuse and the training includes. This is not just one judge talking coercive control; to other judges. The training includes practical exercises (b) the risks and difficulties for victims and witnesses in giving evidence and taking part in proceedings concerning rape, sexual and role play and is delivered by a wide range of and domestic abuse and coercive control; experts, including academics and experts in psychiatry, (c) the risks and difficulties for victims and witnesses of being psychology and other professions and agencies working involved in proceedings where one or more other parties may be in this area, as well as victims. The Judicial College the perpetrators of rape, sexual and domestic abuse and coercive also advocates the use of specialists to co-train and control or persons connected to such perpetrators. provide an annexe of specialist organisations. In the (3) Before publishing the strategy and timetable mentioned in e-learning, SafeLives, Cafcass and Cafcass Cymru and subsection (1)(a) and (b) the Lord Chancellor must consult— IDVAs have all contributed to the films provided to (a) the Lord Chief Justice; the Judicial College. (b) the Chairman of the Board of the Judicial College; Thirdly—and importantly going forward—the Judicial (c) the President of the Family Division; College is committed to reviewing and improving training (d) the Chief Executive of the Magistrates Association; and on domestic abuse for both the judiciary and the (e) the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. magistracy. The senior judiciary, including both the (4) After commencement of this subsection, which must be President of the Family Division and Lady Justice not more than two years after the passing of this Act, the Lord King, the chair of the Judicial College, both acting on Chancellor must ensure that no Family cases are heard by judges behalf of the Lord Chief Justice, are working to further or magistrates who have not successfully completed the training develop domestic abuse training. mentioned in subsection (1).”” 1883 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1884

Baroness Helic (Con) [V]: My Lords, I express my I know that my noble friend the Minister recognises thanks to everyone who has supported this amendment that training is necessary to make all the provisions in in its previous guises, especially the noble Lord, the Bill work as they ought to—as we hope they will. I Lord Marks, my co-sponsor; the London Victims’ am grateful to him for raising this with the President Commissioner, who played an instrumental role in its of the Family Division and the head of the Judicial early stages; and the domestic abuse commissioner- College, and I am pleased to hear their assurances on designate. reform. I note, however, that we have heard similar I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for assurances for some time now without seeing real meeting me several times and engaging with what I change. For example, the harm panel implementation have had to say, even if he does not agree with it. He plan made commitments on training that we have not raised two fundamental objections: that the amendment yet seen implemented. This is why I still believe that is unnecessary, and that it is contrary to the principle legislation is an appropriate and necessary route in of judicial independence. I am yet to be convinced of delivering the improved training that we both think is either of those points. We are assured that all judges required. If my noble friend cannot accept this, I hope and magistrates already undergo training on domestic that he will prove me wrong. Perhaps he could play a abuse, but there is very little transparency around the convening role, bringing together judges and domestic form of the existing training. I am grateful to my abuse experts. I hope that he will continue to make the noble friend for offering more detail than we have views of your Lordships’House, which contains eminent previously heard on this point. lawyers and former judges who support this amendment, I am pleased that domestic abuse makes up more very clear to the senior judiciary. than 50% of the content of private law induction The current training is not working. Reform is training. However, I am afraid, that makes the case for desperately needed. If we hope to build a system that this amendment only stronger. Based on the real evidence works for victims and survivors—not their abusers—we that comes out of the family courts day in, day out, must not forget that. the existing training is simply not working. Judges and magistrates do not have the necessary understanding 3.15 pm of domestic abuse. We still hear of judges who do not believe in coercive control, do not recognise domestic Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, abuse unless it leaves physical injury, and say that there I will speak briefly on this Motion because we are well was no conviction for abuse so therefore there was no on course to achieve what we set out to do. I commend abuse. Survivors—both men and women—are unable to the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, for the commitment trust the courts and are afraid to go to them. Abusers and assiduity with which she has pursued this topic in know that they can use the courts to continue their abuse. the face of assurances that, at times, have seemed to her complacent and misplaced. The seriousness with If the existing training is not working, we must which this topic is now being addressed is a credit to reform and improve it. That is why the requirement to her and many others. consult the domestic abuse commissioner is so important. I am pleased to hear that the senior judiciary takes this I understand and accept entirely the Government’s issue seriously but, when the system is so flawed, it is concerns about judicial independence. Indeed, noble hard for effective change to come from within it. If the Lords will know that I have argued the case for it on Judicial College could open itself up to and work with any number of occasions in this House. I am not sure experts such as the domestic abuse commissioner, that that either the amendment we put forward or the would make a real difference. It is the sort of commitment Motion that is now there in its place would have that we need but which we have not yet heard. It is compromised judicial independence to the extent that worth stressing this point: without specific detail on the Government thought. However, we accept that the nature of training, it is hard for specialist organisations judicial training is a matter for the judiciary. We also to assess whether it is up to date and appropriate. accept that, for many years, judicial training has been I hope that my noble friend, and indeed the senior mandatory on induction and on a continuing basis for judiciary,willlookhardforwaystoimprovethetransparency judges sitting in family cases, but it is important to around training and engage with a wider range of ensure that such training is comprehensive, up to date experts and organisations in providing that training. and, above all, successful. That, I believe, is an objective we all share. On the question of judicial independence, of course I recognise that my noble friend is right to be cautious. It is also important to recognise that there has been Judicial independence is hugely important and I would a problem with domestic violence victims feeling that not want to suggest anything to undermine it. However, they have been treated unsympathetically by the courts I do not accept that this amendment does that; I hope in the past. There is a deeply held feeling that the that I have made this even clearer in its revised version trauma that they have suffered has been insufficiently in Motion C1. The Lord Chancellor is sworn to defend recognised, and that the particular trauma involved in the independence of the judiciary. In drawing up a court processes and reliving the violence that they have strategy for training, he would have to act within the suffered has not been properly addressed. A great deal terms of that oath. The amendment also makes clear of evidence to that effect has been given in speeches to the important roles of the Lord Chief Justice, the this House during the passage of the Bill. chairman of the board of the Judicial College, the We have made significant progress with the Bill President of the Family Division and the chief executive towards making the courts more humane places for of the Magistrates’Association. That is a powerful judicial domestic violence victims. We have been assisted voice in the process. enormously by the many groups and individuals who 1885 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1886

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] which I have no doubt will be updated again, sets out have briefed us,particularly Women’sAid, Claire Waxman how family cases involving domestic abuse should be —the Victims’ Commissioner for London—and many tried. The Court of Appeal sets out instructions and others. We are very grateful to all of them for their advice on how to approach and try domestic abuse insights and suggestions. cases. An important judgment for the Court of Appeal, There is room for much more progress.I am particularly Re H-N and Others (children) (domestic abuse: finding concerned to see faster progress towards more judicial of fact hearings), was given earlier this year. The three diversity. Throughout the debates on this Bill, it has members of the court were the President of the Family been clear to all of us that ethnic-minority victims and Division, the chairman of the Judicial College and a parties to proceedings have suffered unduly from the member of the criminal sentencing panel, all of whom difficulties and hardships caused by domestic violence. are involved in the training of family and criminal I believe that many share my view that a judiciary that judges and magistrates. The president himself takes a more clearly represents the people who appear before personal interest in the training of family judges. it—in colour, background, age and gender—would The House may be interested to know that in the appear, and be, more attuned to the challenges and H-N case, the Court of Appeal invited the various traumas that victims face. victims’ organisations, such as Women’s Aid, to be Throughout this process the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, represented at the court and to give their views, which has been ready to meet us and listen to the concerns were carefully listened to by the court—and that was expressed. I am extremely grateful to him for all his shown in the judgments. In the H-N case, the president help. We are particularly heartened by his assurances set out some statistics which showed that 1,582 full-time today, passed on through him from the senior judiciary, family judges, some part-time family judges and 2,744 not only to the effect that there is a strong commitment family magistrates sat in family cases in England and to improved judicial training but also to the effect that Wales. The president said that it is thought that domestic considerable emphasis is placed on domestic abuse abuse allegations are raised in at least 40% of cases in training. Particularly important is his telling us that which parents dispute the future of their children. the Judicial College already has in hand arrangements That means that domestic abuse issues are raised in for judicial training in the light of both the provisions about 22,000 child cases each year. In addition, the of the Bill and, no doubt, the discussions in this courts received last year 29,285 applications for injunction House and the other place concerning them. orders seeking protection from domestic abuse. In the clear expectation that judicial training directed It is obvious, as we have heard during proceedings at addressing the particular difficulties facing domestic on the Bill, that some judges get it wrong. That is violence victims is a high priority, I welcome the obvious from the H-N case, where in four cases things progress that we have made and agree with the decision went wrong. It is helpful that the Court of Appeal saw made by the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, not to divide that and put it right. However, from the large number the House on this Motion. of cases tried by the courts, there are very few appeals to the Court of Appeal and I would suggest, despite Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]: My Lords, this what has been said—particularly by the noble Baroness, amendment is understandable but misconceived and I Lady Helic, who said that the training is not working—that am relieved that it will not be put to a vote. I declare an only a comparatively small number of people have in interest as a former chairman of the Family Committee fact had bad experiences and that most judges have of the Judicial Studies Board, which was the forerunner got it right. of the Judicial College. I have recently been in touch with the Judicial I am told by the Judicial College that the domestic College to find out what training there is at the moment abuse training is being updated in the light of the and what is intended when the Bill becomes law. I forthcoming Act and instructions from the most recent hope that the House will bear with me as I bring noble Court of Appeal cases such as H-N and several others. Lords up to date. I propose to say quite a lot, despite The new Act will become an integral part of the noble Lords having heard from the Minister. I do not family training of judges at every level, and of magistrates. accept that the current training is not working. The It will form part of the courses taken by the judges Judicial College trains all judges at every level and all and magistrates trying criminal cases as well. It is across magistrates sitting in the criminal and civil courts. the board. The president has also set up a private law Judges and magistrates are identified as appropriate to working group which includes domestic abuse. There sit in particular work such as domestic abuse, and they is, therefore, a great deal of information, guidance and are ticketed to do so only after they have had sufficient instruction to judges and magistrates on how to try training. They are not allowed to sit until they have domestic abuse cases, which it is their duty to follow, had that training. The training involves a three-day and they are given the training to do so. induction course in a residential setting, followed by It is not in my view that there is a lack of good continual professional residential training throughout training; it is that some judges do not seem to have their time as a magistrate or judge. benefited from it. I cannot see how any statutory The training in domestic abuse includes hearing guidance from the Lord Chancellor will improve how from victims and victim organisations. A lot of online judges deal with such cases. It is a matter of trying to extra information and advice is also sent to judges and make sure that the limited number of judges who do magistrates. However, the Judicial College is only part not do well enough will do better. Much of that comes of the training. The president sets out instructions to from appeals to the Court of Appeal, which can put judges in practice directions. PD12J, updated in 2017, the matter right and give sensible and helpful advice. 1887 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1888

I am relieved that this matter will not go to a vote It is not always the case that there is a great call of because, although I have not dealt with it, this is also, support for judicial independence, but I will leave the as the Minister has said, a constitutional issue of point there. I do not in any way bring the noble Lord judicial independence. I hope that the House will now into that; I have the highest respect for him. be satisfied that the Judicial College is doing the best job that it possibly can and will, with the new Act, do 3.30 pm somewhat better. It is important that people fully understand the effect of domestic abuse on victims and on witnesses. The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) That is why this amendment was brought forward. I (CB): Does anyone else in the Chamber wish to speak? thank the noble Lord for his reassurances. From the No? I call the next speaker on the list, the noble Lord, discussions he has already had on these issues, how Lord Paddick. does he think he will ensure that the work the Judicial College will do will bring about that change, so that all Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, as the noble Baroness, judges and magistrates fully understand this horrific Lady Helic, has said, with the best will in the world, crime, in all its many facets, and take that into account much of the legislation that this House passes will be properly when doing their work in our courts? With ineffective if judges do not understand the issues. that, I thank the noble Lord for his response and look Sadly, in some cases—albeit a limited number—it is forward to hearing what he says. clear that they do not understand the issues surrounding domestic abuse, in particular, coercive control, rape Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con): My Lords, I am and sexual abuse, despite current training. again grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part Tothe noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in this debate. I first pick up the contribution from the I would say that there is a difference between outputs noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. On the and outcomes.I am not sure whether this is an appropriate previous Motion I respectfully commended her experience. analogy, but I know from my own experience of race Even though I lost that vote, I do so again, because she relations training, for example, that the cultural shift has given the House a lot of detail as to the training needed is difficult to achieve. The proof of the pudding that is actually provided. The House now ought to be is in the eating and, at times, the training of the judiciary reassured that, right from the top of the judiciary has failed the test. Despite the Minister’s assertion, I through to the Judicial College, there is a commitment fail to understand how mandating such training without to the importance of training, to ongoing training, to dictating the specific content can be contrary to the training from a variety of providers and not just principle of judicial independence, as my noble friend judges, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley- Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames has said. on-Thames, picked up, to specific training on the Domestic Abuse Bill—or, as I hope it will soon be, the However, we are grateful for the reassurances that Domestic Abuse Act. I hope that that level of detail has the Government have given as a result of the concerted been helpful to the House and, in particular, helpful efforts by the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, and my and reassuring to my noble friend Lady Helic. noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames. I also tried—I hope I succeeded, to an extent—to reassure my noble friend as to the extent and content Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, of the judicial training. I repeat the constitutional we on these Benches support the intention behind the point that we cannot force the judiciary on the nature, noble Baroness’s amendment. The case for improved content or extent of that training. But there is, as I training is well made. The amendment’s wording does have said, commitment from the very top to make sure not dictate what the training should be but puts the that the Judicial College fulfils its role and that all requirement for it in the Bill. Around the House, I judges and magistrates are properly trained on domestic think that we can all agree on the need for updated, abuse generally, and specifically on this Act. The House quality training and to ensure that it happens. can be assured that in my ongoing discussions and I have said many times that this is a good Bill and meetings with senior judiciary, including the President will be a good Act of Parliament, but it is important of the Family Division, I will keep the question of that everything is done to ensure that all aspects of the training on domestic abuse on the agenda. Even if I law are correct. That includes ensuring that our judges did not, the President of the Family Division would be and magistrates are properly trained. We owe that to totally focused on it anyway, but none the less I will victims, because domestic abuse is something that we ensure that it is part of our discussions. now talk about in the country and in the House. That I also respectfully agree with the point make by the was not the case many years ago and we should not noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, that just assume that judges and magistrates completely we must remember the particular difficulties—and the understand the issues. That is why it is important that judiciary is increasingly aware of this—that victims of we get the training right. domestic abuse have in court proceedings. The House I accept entirely the point the noble Lord, Lord will be aware that we have made a number of other Wolfson, makes about judicial independence. I think provisions in this Bill to do with witnesses, parties and we all support that, but there have been one or two cross-examination that will improve the lot of victims occasions at the other end of the building when other of domestic abuse in our courts. That is something I parts of the Conservative Party were not so keen on personally am very conscious of and focused on. judicial independence, when the judge made a decision Courts can be intimidating places at the best of times, that they did not like—we should get that on the record. and if you are a victim you can double, quadruple or 1889 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1890

[LORD WOLFSON OF TREDEGAR] tackling domestic abuse. The greater detail on existing quintuple the amount of intimidation you feel merely training that my noble friend offered was important. from the process.Wehave made some good improvements The assurances and commitments we are hearing from there. him, and from the judiciary via him, are very welcome. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, correctly says that There is much more work to be done. I hope that this the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The danger can be the beginning of a process, rather than the end. with metaphors is stretching them too far, but in this For now, I will withdraw the Motion. context we are all committed to making the best possible pudding. The way you do that, if I can stretch Motion C1 withdrawn. the metaphor, is to have the best set of ingredients. That is why the Judicial College, in its training, has Motion C agreed. already engaged, and will continue to engage, training from a wide variety of providers—though the decision as to who those providers are has to be ultimately that Motion D of the Judicial College. Moved by Lord Wolfson of Tredegar I hope I have dealt with all the points raised in this debate. I will take literally 30 seconds to respond to the That this House do not insist on its Amendment 37, noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, on the judicial to which the Commons have disagreed for their independence point. It is such an important point that Reason 37A, and do not insist on its Amendments 38 I must not let it go past, if the House will indulge me. and 83, to which the Commons have disagreed for My approach to judicial independence is really very their Reasons 38A and 83A. simple: you can disagree with the decision but you respect 37A: Because it is inappropriate to extend the so-called the decision-maker. It really is as simple as that. I fear ‘householder defence’ to victims of domestic abuse who use that, for the second time this afternoon, I have touched disproportionate force against their abusers in self-defence. on points of important constitutional principle. I will 38A: Because it is inappropriate to provide a new defence for not continue the lecture any further. I hope that my victims of domestic abuse who are compelled to commit an noble friend Lady Helic will indeed withdraw her offence as a result of such abuse, as the existing common law amendment. defence of duress is sufficient. 83A: Because it is inappropriate to provide a new defence for Baroness Helic (Con) [V]: My Lords, I will be brief. victims of domestic abuse who are compelled to commit an I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed offence as a result of such abuse, as the existing common law and agree with a great deal of what has been said. The defence of duress is sufficient. noble Lord, Lord Marks, has been an invaluable support throughout this process, not least on navigating the Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con): My Lords, the constitutional issues, and I commend his words on the elected House disagreed with these amendments by a feelings of survivors and the importance of up-to-date substantial majority. In inviting this House not to training. insist on these amendments, I remind noble Lords that The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the amendments seek to create two new statutory has been a powerful voice on training across all stages defences. Although the Government are sympathetic of this Bill. I am pleased we agree on the importance to the aims behind the new defences, we were, and we of training, even if we do not agree on the mechanism remain, entirely unconvinced of their necessity. for reform. Her update on the specifics of training is Amendment 37 sought to extend the provisions very interesting. It is reassuring that the courts are at contained in Section 76 of the Criminal Justice and least heading in the right direction, even if I believe that Immigration Act 2008. In effect, if I can shorten what there is still some way to go. is a bit of lengthy law, the amendment essentially seeks The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, makes the important to extend the special householder defence, where force point that not all training is equal. It is not enough to is used for the purposes of self-defence. Amendment 37 have training; it needs to be good training. That is why sought to extend those provisions to any person who reform is important. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy is, or has been, a victim of domestic abuse and who of Southwark, adds his support for updated, quality has been accused of a crime involving the use of force training. This really is a cross-party issue, and I hope against their abuser. The current householder defence that this will be noted by the judiciary, which I hope is in Section 76 recognises the acute circumstances of following these debates. dealing with an unexpected intruder and makes it My noble friend the Minister has been generous lawful to use disproportionate force. Amendment 37, with his time and in his response. I also value his role however,made the disproportionate use of force defence as an intermediary with the judiciary. It is very good available at any time and any place if the person to hear from him that reform is under way. I hope he accused has suffered domestic abuse at the hands of will continue to raise this issue in his meetings with the the person they assaulted. President of the Family Division and others, and to Although the Government are sympathetic to the keep an eye on training, even if the Government will aim behind Amendment 37, we remain unpersuaded not direct it. I am certainly grateful for the assurances of its necessity. We are not aware of any significant he has offered us today. evidence that demonstrates that the panoply of the I hope that, in debating judicial training, we have current full and partial legal defences available are helped raise its status as an issue and made clear to the failing those accused of crimes where being a victim of Government and the judiciary how important it is in domestic abuse is a factor to be taken into consideration. 1891 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1892

Full defences, such as the defence of self-defence, are in domestic homicide cases. The parameters and details defences to any crime and, if pleaded successfully, of that review are currently being refined, but we result in an acquittal. In the circumstances of domestic intend to explore the use of sentencing legislation and abuse, there are partial defences available relating to guidelines in relation to use of a weapon, how aggravating loss of control or diminished responsibility that can be and mitigating circumstances are taken into account, argued. Additionally, the fact that an accused is also a particularly those relevant to domestic abuse and, to victim of domestic abuse will be considered throughout the extent possible, the way in which defences to the criminal justice system process, from the police charges of murder or manslaughter affect sentencing, investigation through to any CPS charging decision, in both cases with a prior history of domestic abuse down to defences deployed at trial under the existing and those without. By undertaking that review, we will law and, if relevant, as a mitigating factor in sentencing. gain a greater understanding of how sentencing in We are also concerned that the proposed defence domestic homicide cases works in practice, while avoiding could, because it provides a full defence to murder, be a rush to make changes that could have unintended open to misuse, potentially even by an abuser who consequences. With respect to the noble Baroness, sought to claim that they were the victim of domestic Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, we feel that this is a abuse—which is very widely defined in this Bill, which more appropriate response, both to the original Lords is a very good thing—rather than the actual victim. Amendments 37, 38 and 83 and also, if I may say, to Turning to Lords Amendment 38, I remind the House her latest Amendment 37B. For those reasons, I believe this sought to create a new statutory defence for victims the principles and ethos behind this Bill will improve of domestic abuse who, by reference to a reasonable and provide better support for victims of domestic person in the same situation as the victim and having abuse and highlight the impact of offensive behaviour. the victim’s relevant characteristics, are compelled to We have raised the profile of domestic abuse. We will, commit certain crimes on the basis of having no obviously, continue to work in this area but, for the realistic alternative. Amendment 83, which would insert reasons I have set out, the Government are unable to a rather long and somewhat intimidating schedule, set support Amendment 37B, and I therefore beg to move out the offences to which this proposed defence would Motion D. not be available, but even though that schedule is long, it would still mean that the defence would be available Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab) [V]: As tabled, for many serious criminal offences, such as drug dealing, this new amendment, is in lieu of my earlier amendments serious assaults occasioning actual bodily harm and which sought to create statutory defences for survivors most non-fatal driving offences. Although, again, the who offend due to their experience of domestic abuse. Government absolutely understand that victims of One of the devasting impacts of domestic abuse is the domestic abuse may also be compelled to resort to unjust criminalisation of the victim. This is a landmark crime, we are not persuaded that the model on which Bill, and I pay tribute to all who have been perfecting this amendment is based, which is Section 45 of the it and adding to it. I think it will be a hugely important Modern Slavery Act 2015, is either apt or effective piece of legislation, but I am afraid it does not prevent with regard to domestic abuse. As I have stated previously, this criminalisation of victims. we have several concerns in relation to this amendment I am not resisting the Motion, but my new amendment in terms of the nature of the defence itself and the would commit the Government to establishing an nature of the offences for which this would be a defence. independent review of the effectiveness of self-defence. I will not detain the House by setting them out again, It is my view, as a barrister in the courts who has done especially as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of homicide cases involving domestic violence where the TheShaws,hasnowputforwardanalternativeamendment, victim has killed her abuser, that there is need for Amendment 37B. It instead calls for independent review legislative reform. A great deal of research has now of the defences available to the victims of domestic been done. A study recently conducted by the Centre abuse. However, I thought was worth briefly restating for Women’s Justice has produced a very persuasive our arguments against the original Lords amendments report concerning the limitations of the defences available because we contend that the existing full and partial to women and, particularly, how self-defence fails defences are up to the task, and because of that, we women because often, in circumstance where their have significant doubts about the case for a review of abuser is not using a weapon, they reach for a weapon. the kind proposed in Amendment 37B. This is then deemed to be disproportionate to the We are of course aware of the horrific impact and threat, but in the circumstances, and the fear created often devastation posed by domestic abuse, not only in her is so great, and she is so unmatched physically for direct victims but also indirect victims, such as with abuser, that she will often reach for a weapon children and the wider family and the House has where others might not. The report produced by the noted the way the early clauses of the Bill have been Centre for Women’s Justice calls into question the drafted with that in mind. ability of self-defence to cover many of the women, and it provides serious evidence of that. 3.45 pm Equally, the Prison Reform Trust has done a great Wealso recognise that there are some women offenders deal of research into women in custody,serving sentences who have been subject to domestic abuse and have in our prison estate, many of whom have been forced been compelled to commit crime as a result of their to commit crimes by their abusers. involvement in an abusive relationship. The Government We hope that this review might be added to the have, therefore, given a commitment—and this is, I review that has just been mentioned by the Minister. hope, an important point—to a review of sentencing The fact that sentencing is being looked at is welcome, 1893 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1894

[BARONESS KENNEDY OF THE SHAWS] independent review of this matter, and do so in but that does not deal with the fact that women unable conjunction with the review of sentencing, as he has to avail themselves of self-defence are often being left already outlined. with a conviction. This has serious consequences for people’s lives, even if they are dealt with more Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, I compassionately by a court because of their history of speak in favour of Amendment 37B, in the name of abuse that the court has heard. the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, I ask that this review be undertaken in conjunction having supported her in earlier amendments on Report. with the review on sentencing in homicide cases. I remind I always think that it is a danger for a non-lawyer to the House that the Lord Chancellor is contemplating get involved in some of these discussions. I remember such a review on homicide cases because, having spoken that very often people asked why we had so many to the Victims’ Commissioner and the domestic violence lawyers in the House of Commons, and when I got commissioner, who explained to him the ways in which there I realised that it was because we make laws. This women might seem to take disproportionate action of course is a good example of why we need the great because of their physical disadvantage, he felt compelled legal brains that this Chamber has in plenty. So I feel a to. I would not have thought that it was particularly little in awe not only of the noble Baroness but of my complicated to add to the review the issue of whether noble friend the Minister. the matter of self-defence and duress works for women I declare an interest as the deputy chairman of the and men experiencing domestic violence. Human Trafficking Foundation. There is a similarity My amendment seeks a formal response from the with the Modern Slavery Act, which covers people Minister to my suggestion. I will not be pushing the who commit crimes under duress because they have amendment to a vote. My earlier amendments would been trafficked or are enslaved, although my noble have provided effective defences for survivors of domestic friend the Minister does not think so. I find it difficult abuse who, as a result of the appalling experience, are not to see it, and it is a shame. The last thing we need is driven to use force in self-defence or are coerced to fill up our prisons with people who should not be by their abuser into offending. The amendments were there and who committed a crime only because they based on legal precedents already in place to protect were forced to. I heard what the Minister said, and other groups.Since we already makethis special concession what the noble Baroness said. It would be very useful for householders facing an intruder,I cannot understand if he could move a little more and extend that review why the same kind of concession in seeking proper justice to look at the issues that the noble Baroness mentioned. cannot be made available to victims of domestic abuse. I heard what the noble Baroness said about the meeting One might also look at how victims of trafficking that she had with my noble friend and the fact that who are compelled to offend are dealt with, as suggested there was a survivor there. I have always believed that by the statutory defence in the second of the two listening to survivors, whether of domestic abuse or propositions that I put before the House. They would modern slavery, normally for me swings the balance in have provided equivalent protection to survivors who, favour of the victims. Those poor, innocent people far from receiving protection and support, as this Bill who have had to endure so much should not have to seeks to ensure, find themselves in the dock for offences face criminal proceedings as a result of their abuse. that they had no realistic alternative but to commit. I look forward to hearing what my noble friend the When the Minister and I met last week to discuss Minister says in winding up this debate. I fear that I these proposals with members of the Centre for Women’s may be disappointed, but I hope that perhaps at the Justice,we were joined by a survivor who spoke powerfully last minute there will be a glimmer of hope. of her experience of terrible abuse, including how she was coerced by her terrifying abuser into handling The Lord Bishop of Gloucester [V]: My Lords, I stolen goods. I feel sure that the Minister would agree support this amendment, tabled by the noble Baroness, that there is no material difference between the Lady Kennedy. In Committee and on Report, I spoke circumstances that led her to offend and the way in in favour of amendments to this Bill that proposed a which victims of trafficking are coerced into offending. statutory defence of domestic abuse, recognising the Yet, had she been caught, it is highly likely that she significant number of women coming into contact would have received a caution or conviction, given the with the criminal justice system who have experienced impossibly high threshold required for the defence of domestic abuse and previous trauma, and how that duress, and that she would have gone to prison. becomes a driver for their offending. I do not want to This is far from being an isolated case. Many other repeat all that the noble Baroness has said, but I will examples, including cases in which self-defence has highlight again the statistic of almost 60% of women failed, have been collated and presented to the supervised in the community or in custody who have Government. The misery and injustice faced by victims an assessment have experienced domestic abuse—and in these cases will simply go on and on until reforms the true figure is likely to be much higher. are implemented. Other common-law jurisdictions have Regrettably,these amendments have not been included dealt with these challenges through legislation, and I in the Bill, and I therefore strongly support the call to have never been more convinced than now that we hold an independent review of the effectiveness of need legislation in this jurisdiction to ensure that these existing defences, as proposed by this amendment. cases are dealt with justly. I know that the Minister disagrees, but I also know that he sympathises with Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, I our aims. I hope therefore that he will take action had a few calm sentences worked out in response to today by confirming that the Government will hold an this Motion, and completely scrapped them once I read 1895 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1896 the Commons disagreement amendments in lieu and The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) reasons, because the reasons that the Commons have (Con): I must ask at this point: does anyone in the given for rejecting our amendments are absolutely Chamber wish to speak? No? In that case it is over to pathetic. the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. I disagree strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, of whom I am very fond, when he says Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, it really is a pleasure to that non-lawyers should not get involved in lawyerly follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, debates. Here in your Lordships’ House I see lawyers for reasons that will become apparent, not least because arguing ferociously about tiny issues on opposite sides we are three non-lawyers in a row. of the Chamber.Lawyers often do not agree,and therefore On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, at times we have to have some common sense. wondered whether I was accusing the Government of being misogynistic, following on from what the noble 4pm Baroness has just said. I say very clearly that that is It is no secret, or at least it might not be, that I am not what I said or intended to say. I shall clarify. The extremely intolerant of this Government. Quite honestly, essence of misogyny, as I understand it, is hatred of the Minister referring to a “substantial majority” in women who fail to comply with the sexist stereotype the other place cuts no ice here when the Government of a compliant, subordinate woman—hatred of women have an 80-plus majority as well as some quite unsavoury who stand up for themselves. I am not accusing the little people from other parties. Government of hating women, but in my opinion I am sorry, but I now just have scribbled notes on there are echoes of that view of women being subordinate these sheets of paper because of my fury at what I in their approach to this issue. have heard. One of the points about lawyers in the As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, other place is that they have given up their practices to has said, on the face of it the Government’s refusal to become MPs.That means they are relatively inexperienced, extend the so-called householder defence to victims of whereas here we have experienced lawyers who do domestic abuse who use disproportionate force against their best to give the Government good advice, but their abusers in self-defence in the same way that a somehow that is very rarely enough. householder is allowed to use disproportionate force TheCommonsreasonfordisagreeingwithAmendment37 against an intruder appears to smack of the view that is: men should stand and fight but women should run away. “Because it is inappropriate to extend the so-called ‘householder I do not intend to go over the arguments that I defence’ to victims of domestic abuse who use disproportionate made at previous stages of the Bill; suffice it to say that force against their abusers in self-defence.” I do not believe the Government’s arguments hold I would argue that inherent in that phrase is the deep water. As a result, I am led to the conclusions that I misogyny that we see all through society, because a have expressed. I would not be averse to the Government householder who uses force against an intruder is repealing the so-called householder defence, but I almost invariably going to be a man while the person believe that to allow predominantly male householders who attacks their abuser is almost invariably going to to avail themselves of such a defence while not extending be a woman. Misogyny is written into that wording. it to predominantly women victims of domestic abuse The Commons disagree with Lords Amendment 38: is inconsistent and incompatible. “Because it is inappropriate to provide a new defence for While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Randall of victims of domestic abuse who are compelled to commit an offence as a result of such abuse, as the existing common law Uxbridge, about Lords Amendment 38, in my view defence of duress is sufficient.” the Government’s approach is again inconsistent. The That is clearly not true because women are still being law specifically provides a statutory defence to victims sent to prison for,in many cases, quite justified aggression of modern slavery when those victims are compelled against their abusers. The same claim is repeated later to commit an offence, even though there is an existing in rejecting other amendments of ours. I just do not common-law defence of duress. When it comes to see how the Government can persist in their blindness victims of domestic abuse who are compelled to commit towards what is happening in society and not at least an offence as a result of such abuse, the Government try to make it a bit better. I fully realise that the Bill is argue that the existing common-law defence of duress a very valuable one and we absolutely need it, but why is sufficient. Either the existing common-law defence not make it as good as we possibly can? of duress is sufficient for both victims of domestic abuse and victims of modern slavery or it is not. In my I very much support the new amendment by the view, the Government should not be able to have it noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. I am both ways. very glad that she has persisted on this issue. I hope the Minister will actually listen to what we are saying Clearly,theseanomaliesneedtobeaddressed.MotionD1 now and take back to—I was going to say “his masters”, provides for an independent review of defences for but your Lordships know what I mean—his department those who offend due to domestic abuse, which we the fact that this would be a good addition to the support. The review of sentencing as suggested by the Government’s review of sentencing. I cannot say that Government does not appear to us to go far enough. forcefully enough. I just have one question—well, I have lots of questions, Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, including “Why won’t the Government see sense?”—but my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws set out this particular question is: when will the Government’s in detail the case for her amendments in Committee review of sentencing actually report? and on Report, and it is disappointing that they have 1897 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1898

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] but it is a broad review. The terms of reference are still been rejected by the other place. In response, she has being developed, but it will look at the impact of tabled Motion D1 in her name. As we have heard, she defences on sentencing, and, while I appreciate that is seeking an independent review to look at the issues that is not as far as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy that we have been talking about throughout our of The Shaws, would like me to go, I hope that it is an consideration of these matters. I think that is the right indication of the seriousness with which the Government way forward. take this matter and, in particular,the review of sentencing. I am conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson I pick up the point of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. of Tredegar, is resisting the new Motion from my We respectfully disagree that there is a read-over to noble friend, but she made the point, as have others, either the householder or the trafficking issue. As to that if the Government are resisting the issues raised the latter, I have made clear on previous occasions that in the amendment, he ought to address the question of we have concerns with the way that that defence is whether they could be looked at by the review of used in practice. Indeed, if I remember correctly, one sentencing—or is that a step too far for the Government? of Her Majesty’s judges recently explained that in a There is a huge issue here. I recall the debates that case that he was hearing in, I think, Bradford—I may we had when my noble friend and others presented be misremembering that. As such, there is an issue as harrowing cases. There is a real point here: if there is to how that trafficking offence is applied in practice. an intruder in someone’s house then, as the noble Lord, Likethe right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, Lord Paddick, said, often a male can defend himself I am well aware that there is a substantial proportion there and has a defence, but a woman attacked by her of women in prison who have themselves been victims partner in her own home, which should be a place of domestic abuse—that is of course why a review of of safety, cannot rely on such a defence. That cannot sentencing is so important. Without being trite, they be right. are in prison because they were given a prison sentence; The Bill is seeking to address the whole issue of therefore, a focus on sentencing in the review is entirely domestic abuse in all its various facets. It is a good appropriate. Bill, but it would be an even better one if we could I do not know whether there is anything I can do to make sure that all the gaps were plugged here. The fact help the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, is that women in their own homes, their place of in her apparent dichotomy between lawyers on the one safety, can often find themselves in very dangerous hand and common sense on the other. The point I was situations. If they have to defend themselves and end making about the majority in the other place was up injuring or killing their partner,we should understand actually that it was not the standard government majority, that and ensure that they have the proper defences to so to speak: it was a significant majority—with the take account of the difficult situation that they have greatest respect, that is something that this House found themselves in, often over many years. After all, ought to bear in mind. However, my noble friend Lord these things escalate; they do not happen overnight. Randall of Uxbridge did perhaps solve an age-old My noble friend has identified an important point conundrum about a justification for the existence of here, and I hope that when the Minister responds he lawyers, particularly in Parliament. He even came can address it. We need to find a way to look at the close to giving an explanation for their possible utility, issues that my noble friend raised in the review of so I am grateful to him for that. sentencing, as he referred to in his earlier remarks. My noble friend was also right when he said that people should not go to prison if they have been Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con): My Lords, I am convicted of a crime that they were forced to commit— again grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to “forced” is a critical word, and that is where you get these exchanges. Right at the start, I say that the noble into the defence of duress. However, as I said, it is not Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, was spot on only the question of the defence of duress: if there is a when she characterised my position as disagreeing but conviction, the nature of the force—if it does not sympathising—that is absolutely right. For the reasons amount to a defence—would still be relevant to sentencing that I have set out, I disagree but sympathise with the and to mitigation. aims of the amendments. As such, I hope that I have set out the reasons why Like the noble Baroness, I found the meeting with theGovernmentdisagree.IhopethatIhavealsoresponded the representatives from the Centre for Women’s Justice to the particular point put to me by the noble Lord, extremely helpful. I have read a lot of material that Lord Kennedy of Southwark, on the scope of the they have produced, and, in particular, like her, I review. However, for the reasons that I have set out, I found the conversation with the survivor who joined hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The us extremely powerful. Like my noble friend Lord Shaws, will indeed not press her amendment. Randall of Uxbridge, we have to remember that, while we may be debating what sometimes seem here to be The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) quite dry and technical issues of law, there are real (Con): I have received no requests to speak after the people—if I may use that terrible phrase—and, in this Minister.I beg your pardon; I see that the noble Baroness, case, real victims of domestic abuse, who are affected. Lady Jones, wishes to speak. The House can be assured that I have that at the very front of my thinking. I will not go over the substantive points that I 4.15 pm made—I hope I am excused for that. As I explained, Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): I asked about the review is of sentencing in domestic homicide cases, a date. 1899 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1900

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con): As I explained, come forward to report such crimes to the police, the review’s terms of reference are being set out. The regardless of their immigration status, and that they date will depend on how broad the review is, which are not deterred from doing so because of concerns will obviously affect the date by which it reports. that immigration enforcement action may be taken Certainly, as soon as there is a date fixed or anticipated, against them. As I have previously made clear, our I can perhaps write to the noble Baroness to inform overriding priority is to protect the public and all her of it. victims of crime, regardless of their immigration status. Guidance issued by the National Police Chiefs’ Council, Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab) [V]: My which was updated last year, makes clear that victims Lords, I am of course disappointed that there has not of domestic abuse should be treated as victims first been any movement—because the suggestion of there and foremost. being a review in relation to the defences was posited The National Police Chiefs’ Council remains clear last week, and I had hoped that, in the interim, we in its view that information-sharing between the police might have heard that some movement had taken and Immigration Enforcement is in the interest of the place behind the scenes. Given that the terms of reference victim. Assistant Commissioner Louisa Rolfe,the national have not been finalised, I will write to the Lord Chancellor policing lead on domestic abuse, concurred with this and seek to persuade him that the terms of reference view when she gave oral evidence to the Public Bill might extend to a look at the defences as well as the Committee in another place. sentencing in homicide cases where there is a background There can be many benefits to sharing information, of domestic violence or abuse. as it can establish whether a victim has a status of As I indicated, I will not press this Motion. I beg which they are unaware. It can also help to prevent leave to withdraw it, but I ask that the good offices of perpetrators of abuse from coercing or controlling the Lord Chancellor’s Department might be open to their victims because of their insecure immigration some reconsideration. status. In cases like these, bringing the victim into the immigration system and providing them with a clearer Motion D1 withdrawn. understanding of their status can only help them, enabling them to obtain appropriate legal advice to Motion D agreed. regularise their stay if necessary. I hope that noble Lords will also appreciate that the Motion E Government are duty bound to maintain an effective Moved by Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay immigration system, to protect our public services and safeguard the most vulnerable people from exploitation That this House do not insist on its Amendment 40, due to their immigration status. The public rightly to which the Commons have disagreed for their expect that everyone in this country should be subject Reason 40A. to our laws. It is right that, when people with an 40A: Because the Government has committed to reviewing the irregular immigration status are identified, they should processing of migrant victims’ personal data for the purposes of be supported to come under our immigration system immigration control in response to the report on Liberty and Southall Black Sisters’super-complaint on policing and immigration and, where possible, to regularise their stay.Immigration status published by Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary Enforcement staff routinely help migrant victims of on 17 December 2020, and the Commons consider that the crime by directing them to legal advice to help them Amendment would preempt the outcome of that review. regularise their stay. Since April 2020, Immigration Enforcement has Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con): My Lords, improved its data collection and has recorded crime on behalf of my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford, type on all victim referrals from the police. Between I beg to move Motion E—that this House does not April and December last year, 128 victims of domestic insist on its Amendment 40. Noble Lords will recall abuse were referred to Immigration Enforcement. Of that this amendment seeks to establish a firewall so those 128, 75—just under 60%—already had legal that the personal data of victims of domestic abuse that status in the UK, of which some of them may have are given or used for the purposes of their seeking or been unaware. Only 32 of these referrals—25% of receiving support are not used for immigration control them—had enforcement action taken in the form of purposes. the serving of papers to notify them of their immigration While we appreciate the case that noble Lords have status. This was often days after the initial referral and made throughout the passage of the Bill, the Government once the individual had been safeguarded by police remain of the view that what is provided for in officers. Records show that none of the individuals Amendment 40 would actually be detrimental to the has been detained and none has been removed from safeguarding of victims of domestic abuse—and that the United Kingdom. I hope that noble Lords will it is premature, given the process set out by the policing agree that these findings demonstrate some of the inspectorate, following its report in December on the misconceptions which have arisen regarding the actions super-complaint made by Liberty and Southall Black that Immigration Enforcement takes with migrant victims Sisters. This view was shared in another place, where of abuse. your Lordships’amendment was disagreed by a majority We understand the concerns raised by the noble of 80. Baroness, Lady Meacher, about migrant victims who None the less, the Government have of course do not feel safe reporting their abusers to the authorities reflected carefully on our earlier debates on this issue. for fear of enforcement action being taken. I am We want to ensure that all victims of crime are able to grateful to the noble Baroness for the time she made 1901 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1902

[LORD PARKINSON OF WHITLEY BAY] prosecution of that abuse, or to assist the victim of that abuse in yesterday to discuss this, and her amendments, with any legal proceedings, is not used for any immigration control me. As part of our review, we will engage with domestic purpose. abuse sector organisations better to understand those (3) Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to the Data Protection Act 2018 concerns and assess what more we can do to allay such shall not apply to the personal data to which subsection (1) or (2) applies. fears. We are also engaging closely with the domestic (4) For the purposes of this section, the Secretary of State abuse commissioner’s office throughout the review. must issue guidance to— The amendment would also have wider-reaching (a) persons from whom support or assistance may be requested impacts on domestic abuse victims receiving the NHS or received by a victim of domestic abuse in the United Kingdom; treatment they are entitled to. The NHS can seek (b) persons exercising any function of the Secretary of State in information from the Home Office about a person’s relation to immigration, asylum or nationality; and immigration status to inform its assessment of their (c) persons exercising any function conferred by or by virtue eligibility for free treatment. Data sharing of this kind of the Immigration Acts on an immigration officer. may help some victims of domestic abuse to establish (5) For the purposes of this section— their eligibility for free NHS treatment when seeking “immigration control purpose” means any purpose of the treatment not covered already covered by the exemption functions to which subsection (4)(b) and (c) refers; for medical conditions caused by domestic violence. “support or assistance”includes the provision of accommodation, Finally,and perhaps most pertinently,as the Commons banking services,education, employment, financial or social assistance, set out in their reason for disagreeing with your Lordships, healthcare and policing services; and any function of a court or prosecuting authority; this amendment is pre-empting the super-complaint “victim” includes any dependent of a person, at whom the process. The outcome of the super-complaint was domestic abuse is directed, where that dependent is affected by published by Her Majesty’sInspectorate of Constabulary that abuse.” and Fire & Rescue Services in December last year and 40C: In Clause 79, after subsection (7) insert— made eight recommendations. It is only right that we properly take account of the recommendations in this “(7A) Regulations under this section bringing section (Victims of domestic abuse: data-sharing for immigration purposes) into report, not least as this is the first ever super-complaint force may not be made until both Houses of Parliament have made under the provisions of the Policing and Crime approved a resolution to the effect that it should be brought into Act 2017, which were supported on all sides of your force, moved either after debate in that House of any publication Lordships’ House. of the outcome of a review by the Secretary of State of existing data-sharing procedures in relation to victims of domestic abuse In response to the report of Her Majesty’sInspectorate for purposes of immigration control, or after 1 July 2021, whichever of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, we have is the sooner.”” committed to review the current arrangements. We remain on track to publish the outcome of that review by the end of June, as I previously set out. To legislate Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]: My Lords, I rise to now would pre-empt the outcome of that review. move Amendments 40B and 40C, which need to be Moreover, it is highly probable that the outcome of taken together. Again, I thank supporters across the the review can be implemented through further updates House, including the right reverend Prelate the Bishop to the National Police Chiefs’ Council guidance or of London, for their support and I thank the Minister other non-legislative means. If legislation is needed, for our very helpful meeting yesterday. I was very there will be other opportunities, including the Police, grateful for a very open discussion about the issues. Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, which has already The purpose of our original Amendment 40 was to been introduced to Parliament. protect victims of domestic abuse whose migration I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and indeed status is uncertain. About half of these victims are too the whole of your Lordships’House, to support Motion E afraid to report the crimes committed against them. so that we can complete the review in line with the Their perpetrators threaten that the victim will be inspectorate’s findings and recommendations. I beg to detained or deported if they report the abuse. Irrespective move. of what their immigration status is, it is a very useful threat for perpetrators to use. The victims have good reason to be afraid because, at present, if the victim Motion E1 (as an amendment to Motion E) reports a crime of domestic abuse to the police, there is every reason the police may pass that information Moved by Baroness Meacher along to the immigration authorities. This is at a moment of crisis for the victim, when they have quite At end insert “and do propose Amendments 40B likely been made homeless, they may have been thrown and 40C in lieu of Amendment 40— out of their home and are completely vulnerable. The 40B: After Clause 72, insert the following new Clause— idea that the immigration authorities begin to look for “Victims of domestic abuse: data-sharing for immigration purposes them at that point is utterly inappropriate. (1) The Secretary of State must make arrangements to ensure To make clear what we were trying to achieve: our that personal data of a victim of domestic abuse in the United amendment was intended to prevent information about Kingdom that is processed for the purpose of that person requesting or receiving support or assistance related to domestic abuse is not the victim, or any witnesses, being passed from the used for any immigration control purpose. police to the immigration services. I understand the (2) The Secretary of State must make arrangements to ensure reasons for the Commons’ rejection of the amendment. that the personal data of a witness to domestic abuse in the They argue that the Government have committed to United Kingdom that is processed for the purpose of that person the review that the Minister has referred to about the giving information or evidence to assist the investigation or processing of migrant victims’ personal data for the 1903 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1904 purposes of immigration control and that the amendment 4.30 pm would pre-empt the outcome of that review. I totally The compromise amendment would await the outcome understand that. of the review and leave the Government in control, as Incidentally, the Minister referred to the need for Governments understandably need and like to be. It information to be passed to the NHS. We agree with recognises the need for the review to report but also that and we are not talking about blocking the sharing provides an avenue for the protection of these of information with the NHS; we are simply talking extraordinarily vulnerable domestic abuse victims to about the police passing information to the immigration be put in place if the review shows a need for that services, which is a completely different issue. protection. We know there is a need. The question is Our compromise amendment fully respects the whether the review will throw up that evidence and Government’s position and takes account of it. The information. only reason given by the Commons for rejecting the amendment was the fact that the review is ongoing. The Lord Bishop of London: My Lords, I thank the Amendment 40C, linked with Amendment 40B, makes noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for sponsoring this clear that regulations under this section will not come amendment, my friend the right reverend Prelate the into force Bishop of Gloucester and everyone who has faithfully “until both Houses of Parliament have approved a resolution to backed the inclusion of migrant women in this Bill. As the effect … after … any publication of the outcome of a review we already know, the Government voted against the … or after 1 July 2021, whichever is the sooner.” amendment, which would have improved access to As the Minister has explained, it is expected that justice for migrant women. The Commons outcome the review will be published in June. Therefore, the does not secure any long-term legislative protection review will need to be completed, and it will need for migrant women. That is a shame. resolutions from both Houses before these protections We have seen some great breakthroughs in this Bill, could be introduced. So we are allowing time for the some of which I have had the honour of co-sponsoring review to be completed and also putting quite an and which the Government have warmly supported, onerous block in the way of this reform by saying “we but their response on migrant women is quite glaring. need a resolution from both Houses.” Stuart McDonald of the SNP said it best when he The Minister referred to the National Police Chiefs’ asked: Council guidance, but I am told that the guidance is “what is more important, protecting and supporting victims, or implemented very unevenly across the country. If we protecting Home Office powers over migration?”—[Official Report, simply enhance the guidance, that is no guarantee that Commons, 15/4/21; col. 533.] these victims of domestic abuse will be protected. The Commons vote on 16 April has given us the It simply is not sufficient or strong enough. answer. The Minister explained to me that, if protection of The #MeToo movement caught on in waves in 2017 domestic abuse victims is needed, there may be a Bill because many people across countries, societies and in the next Session. However, these things are very cultures could say that they too had experienced some uncertain, and all we are doing is leaving open the form of sexual violence. We cannot in all good faith option of resolutions of both Houses. If there is an leave the outcome for migrant women to a principle alternative Bill, then clearly this matter could be picked that undoes the very aspiration of this Bill, which was up in that Bill. The Government rightly said that the to be ground-breaking. original amendment was not acceptable because it We have heard women campaigners speak loudly pre-empted the review, so we have taken that on board about how abusers can turn to using a woman’s insecure fully. immigration status as a tool to deter them from reporting One of the issues is that the review will need to abuse and to oppress them with the fear of deportation. illustrate that there is a problem with these victims of Women’s rights campaigners have said that the domestic abuse having such fear that they do not Government’s policy is creating an enabling environment report the crimes committed against them. I worry for abuse against women. We know that, because that the review sounds as though it will be focusing on reports have shown that some 92% of migrant women the positive experiences of some domestic abuse victims have reported threats of deportation from their whose immigration status is settled or quite straight- perpetrator. While I understand that the Government’s forward. response to data sharing is still under review and that In our meeting the Minister referred, as he did today, the outcome will be published in June, if we do not to the 128 domestic abuse victims who are in touch accept these amendments we miss the opportunity to with immigration officials. About 60% of them have enshrine in legislation protection for migrant women settled status and the remaining 30%-plus have not who are victims of domestic abuse. been detained or deported. This is welcome information, It is my faith that has driven me to speak today. It is but we have no idea whether those 128 represent 1% or my faith that drives me to stand alongside the marginalised 10% of these migrant women who are victims of and to ensure that we design together spaces in which domestic abuse. It would be extremely helpful if the they can flourish. The original precedent for this Bill, review tried to identify this cohort of about half of which set out to treat victims as victims first and domestic abuse victims who have an immigration status foremost, is what drew me to it. Will the Government issue to find out exactly what is happening to them. I believe migrant women? Will they partner with them ask the Minister to make sure that the review adequately so that they can be safer? Will they hear what the covers that half of the cohort about which we are campaigners have been saying and write into law safety talking. for migrant women, or will they wait to hear other 1905 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1906

[THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON] maintenance of effective immigration control, or the choruses of women’s voices saying, “Me too”? We must investigation or detection of activities that would ensure safe reporting for migrant women who experience undermine the maintenance of effective immigration domestic abuse so that they can be assured that, if control. they approach the police, they will be treated as victims As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, first and foremost and given the right form of support has just said, it matters not what a victim’s immigration to protect them from abuse. status is, if the victim fears that the consequences of reporting a crime of which they are the victim or Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]: My Lords, I agree witness might be their deportation. As the right reverend with the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the right Prelate the Bishop of London has said, there is one reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. It seems perfectly other question for the Government: what is more sensible that we should all wait until the report has important, ending violence against women, girls and come out. What worries me is what appears to be a other vulnerable victims of serious crime, or immigration lack of understanding by the Government. It is perfectly control? If the Government oppose Motion E1, they obvious that if a victim thinks that she—particularly are sending a very clear message that they care more she, but sometimes he—will be subject to immigration about immigration control than protecting vulnerable control, she is not going to come forward and say that victims of crime. We on these Benches will always put she has been abused. It is an obvious way for a victim ending violence against women, girls and other vulnerable to be kept under the control of the abuser. I worry victims first, by voting with the noble Baroness, Lady that, in looking at this, the Government have not taken Meacher, if she divides the House. The noble Baroness into account the obvious dangers to a victim of the has taken full account of the concerns of the other use of their data by immigration control. place and there appears to us to be no reason not to I am also concerned about the DDVC. A number of support her alternative amendments. victims of domestic abuse do not manage to come within its rules and are therefore in danger of being Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I deported despite being sufferers from domestic abuse. make it clear at the outset that if the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, divides the House then the Opposition Benches will strongly support her. This amendment The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) would provide for the circumstances where victims’ (Con): Does anyone else in the Chamber wish to speak data cannot be shared for immigration purposes if at this point? No? I therefore call the noble Lord, Lord they come forward to report abuse. However, and Paddick. importantly, it provides that, for this section to come into force, there must be a vote in both Houses to Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, the Commons reason approve it, after either the Government have published for disagreeing with Lords Amendment 40 relies on a their review and Parliament has debated it, or after 1 government review of a report by Her Majesty’s July if the Government have regrettably not lived up Inspectorate of Constabulary. In light of the two recent to their word and published their review by then. This reports by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary amendment rightly and democratically gives Parliament on the policing of protests, I now have serious concerns the ability to hold the Government to account on about HMIC’s political independence. As a result, any taking action after they publish their review. It is Commons disagreement based on a government review needed to allow victims to feel able to report abuse of immigration control, let alone one based on an without fear,so that dangerous perpetrators are reported HMIC report, provides me with no reassurance whatever. and stopped. Motion E1 would ensure that the personal details One of the consequences of putting immigration of victims and witnesses of domestic abuse were not control above the safety of victims is that perpetrators used for immigration control purposes. Victims of can commit these crimes with impunity—a risk not rape or sexual assault, as well as victims of domestic only for survivors but for wider communities. Better abuse, who have gone to the police have been deported trust in the police to protect victims of abuse and as a result of coming forward as vulnerable victims of investigate crime for migrant women will improve serious crime. Perpetrators of rape, sexual assault and responses for all survivors, and indeed the public. domestic violence threaten victims that, if they go to This revised amendment is a thoroughly reasonable the police, they will be deported. backstop. It gives the Government the time they have Can the Government help with what I understand asked for to publish their review, but it gives Parliament to be their position on how the sharing of information the power, and indeed the responsibility, to hold the between police and immigration enforcement can benefit Government to account and to demand action on this victims of domestic abuse? Is it their position that issue if there is no subsequent implementation. I wholly were a victim to be subject to coercive control on the recommend the amendment to the Minister and to the basis of their immigration status, sharing information Government. with immigration enforcement could establish that the victim’s immigration status was in fact compliant, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con): My Lords, I removing the mechanism of coercive control? If that is am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for the Government’s argument, how is that sharing of setting out the case for her revised amendments and to personal information without consent compliant with all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. GDPR? It is outside the exemption provided by Amendments 40B and 40C seek, in essence, to make paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to the Data Protection Act the same provision as her original Amendment 40 but 2018, which provides an exemption only for the add a mechanism for deferred commencement. I certainly 1907 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1908 appreciate the fact that the noble Baroness has tried to I submit that we should not now send it back to the seek a helpful middle course by adding this deferred other place in the same form, even if it is accompanied commencement and engaging with the reasons given by an additional amendment which provides for delayed in another place for rejecting Amendment 40. However, commencement. The Government are committed to I am afraid that we still do not think that her amendments completing their review of the current data-sharing quite solve the problem. arrangements in a little over two months’ time. Noble Until we have completed the review which I spoke Lords do not have long to wait for that. We should about, we do not want to prejudge the outcome by allow the super-complaints process to take its proper writing into law the provisions of Amendment 40. The course. We will soon publish and then implement the noble Baroness’s amendment provides for one outcome findings of the review. I know that your Lordships’ only, namely a blanket prohibition on the sharing of House will scrutinise the Government’s actions closely, the personal data of victims of domestic abuse for as indeed it should. I urge the noble Baroness not to immigration control purposes. To write this on to the press her Motion, and noble Lords to agree Motion E. face of the Bill, even with her suggested deferred commencement procedure, would still be prejudicial Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]: My Lords, I express to what needs to be an open review, without any my sincere and deep thanks to those who have spoken predetermined outcome. The right reverend Prelate the so powerfully and eloquently in support of this Bishop of London spoke of her anxiety about missing amendment—my heartfelt thanks to all of them. I know the opportunity of doing something in this Bill, but that those who represent these very vulnerable women we could be left with a provision which is simply not will also be extremely grateful. the right way of addressing the issue noble Lords are I also want to thank the Minister for his response, concerned about. As I set out earlier, the outcome of but my greatest disappointment is that he misrepresents the review can, in all likelihood, be given effect through our amendment. He talked about a “deferred non-statutory means, such as revised NPCC guidance, commencement”. The whole point about this revised, but we want to complete that review and make a compromised amendment is that it provides very clear decision once that has been done properly. provisions which leave it to the Government, first, to complete their review but, secondly, to decide whether 4.45 pm they want this to go through both Houses of Parliament. I will address some of the other points which noble The Government have a huge majority in the Commons Lords raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was and can certainly prevent a resolution going through. anxious that the review did not simply focus on the This is not a deferred commencement, it is a conditional positive experiences or the people we know about. commencement: conditional on the outcome of the Throughout these debates, she has made the point that review and on support from the Government, to be we do not know what we do not know. We do not perfectly frank about it. It is not exactly a wild amendment know how many people might be fearful of coming at all; it is very, very modest. forward, because they have not. That is why we want I welcome that the review will be talking to the to engage with domestic abuse sector organisations relevant organisations to try to understand the appalling through the review. They are well placed to make sure consequences of this sharing of information with the that issues such as that can be raised and those whose Immigration Service. I hope they get at that information voices have not yet been heard can be. That engagement and publish it in the review, because it is there, we is starting next month, and we are also working with know it is—I have heard lots of information about the designate commissioner to address those points. these appalling cases. We depend on the review being The noble Baroness was also concerned that the guidance thorough—we do not know whether it will be—and to which I referred is not uniformly understood across on the Government supporting the protections this all police forces. As I said, it was updated last year, but amendment seeks to provide. On that basis, I want to we will certainly work with the National Police Chiefs’ test the opinion of the House. Council to make sure that it is fully embedded in operational practice across all forces. 4.51 pm The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked about data sharing and consent. The Home Office does not process Division conducted remotely on Motion E1 personal data on the legal basis of consent, as we are obliged to discharge the obligation laid upon us in the Contents 307; Not-Contents 253. Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. Consent also has to be informed consent, and it is arguable whether a Motion E1 agreed. person who is vulnerable could be said to have given such. However, we do have protocols and procedures Division No. 2 in place to support people who are vulnerable because of their reliance for their status on a partner who is an CONTENTS abuser, in the way the noble Lord set out. Data is also Adams of Craigielea, B. Amos, B. processed on the basis of public task, as laid out in Addington, L. Anderson of Swansea, L. Articles 6 and 9 of the general data protection regulation Adebowale, L. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. and the Data Protection Act 2018. Adonis, L. Bach, L. Alderdice, L. Bakewell of Hardington We have asked the elected House to consider this Allan of Hallam, L. Mandeville, B. matter again; it has done so and has disagreed with Allen of Kensington, L. Bakewell, B. your Lordships’Amendment 40 by a substantial majority. Alli, L. Barker, B. 1909 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1910

Bassam of Brighton, L. Freyberg, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Rowlands, L. Beecham, L. Gale, B. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Royall of Blaisdon, B. Beith, L. Garden of Frognal, B. L. Russell of Liverpool, L. Benjamin, B. German, L. Macpherson of Earl’s Court, Sandwich, E. Bennett of Manor Castle, B. Glasgow, E. L. Sawyer, L. Berkeley, L. Gloucester, Bp. Mallalieu, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Bichard, L. Goddard of Stockport, L. Manchester, Bp. Scriven, L. Billingham, B. Golding, B. Mandelson, L. Sharkey, L. Blackstone, B. Goldsmith, L. Manningham-Buller, B. Sheehan, B. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Blake of Leeds, B. Goudie, B. Sherlock, B. Blower, B. Grantchester, L. L. Masham of Ilton, B. Shipley, L. Blunkett, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Sikka, L. Boateng, L. Greenway, L. Maxton, L. McAvoy, L. Singh of Wimbledon, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Grender, B. Smith of Basildon, B. B. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Boothroyd, B. Grocott, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Bowles of Berkhamsted, B. Hain, L. McDonagh, B. Smith of Kelvin, L. Bowness, L. Hamwee, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Bradley, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Smith of Newnham, B. Bradshaw, L. Hanworth, V. McNally, L. Snape, L. Bragg, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. McNicol of West Kilbride, L. Somerset, D. Brennan, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Meacher, B. St John of Bletso, L. Brinton, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Mendelsohn, L. Stephen, L. Broers, L. Haworth, L. Merron, B. Stern of Brentford, L. Brown of Cambridge, B. Hayman of Ullock, B. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Stern, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. Hayman, B. B. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Bruce of Bennachie, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Mitchell, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Bryan of Partick, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Monks, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Bull, B. Henig, B. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Storey, L. Burt of Solihull, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Strasburger, L. Butler-Sloss, B. Hollick, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Stunell, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Hollins, B. Murphy of Torfaen, L. Suttie, B. Campbell of Pittenweem, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Neuberger, B. Taverne, L. Campbell of Surbiton, B. Hughes of Stretford, B. Newby, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Campbell-Savours, L. Humphreys, B. Newcastle, Bp. Teverson, L. Carey of Clifton, L. Hunt of Bethnal Green, B. Northover, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Nye, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. Cashman, L. Hussain, L. Oates, L. Thornhill, B. Chakrabarti, B. Hussein-Ece, B. O’Loan, B. Thornton, B. Chandos, V. Janke, B. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Thurso, V. Chapman of Darlington, B. Janvrin, L. Osamor, B. Tope, L. Chartres, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Paddick, L. Touhig, L. Chidgey, L. Jolly, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Clancarty, E. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Pannick, L. Turnberg, L. Clark of Kilwinning, B. Jones of Moulsecoomb, B. Parekh, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Clark of Windermere, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Parminter, B. Tyler, L. Clement-Jones, L. Jones, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Uddin, B. Coaker, L. Jordan, L. Patel, L. Vaux of Harrowden, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Kakkar, L. Pinnock, B. Walker of Aldringham, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Kennedy of Cradley, B. Pitkeathley, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Colville of Culross, V. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Corston, B. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Prashar, B. Walmsley, B. Cotter, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Primarolo, B. Walney, L. Coussins, B. Khan of Burnley, L. Prosser, B. Warsi, B. Craig of Radley, L. Kidron, B. Purvis of Tweed, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Craigavon, V. Kilclooney, L. Puttnam, L. Watts, L. Crawley, B. Kingsmill, B. Quin, B. Waverley, V. Crisp, L. Kramer, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. West of Spithead, L. Cunningham of Felling, L. Krebs, L. Randerson, B. Wheatcroft, B. Curry of Kirkharle, L. Laming, L. Ravensdale, L. Wheeler, B. Davies of Brixton, L. Lawrence of Clarendon, B. Razzall, L. Whitty, L. Derby, Bp. Layard, L. Rebuck, B. Wigley, L. Dholakia, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Redesdale, L. Wilcox of Newport, B. Donaghy, B. Lee of Trafford, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Donoughue, L. Lennie, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Wills, L. Doocey, B. Levy, L. Rennard, L. Wilson of Dinton, L. Drake, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Ricketts, L. Winston, L. D’Souza, B. Liddle, L. Ritchie of Downpatrick, B. Woodley, L. Dubs, L. Lincoln, Bp. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Worcester, Bp. Eatwell, L. Lipsey, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Young of Hornsey, B. Elder, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Rooker, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Etherton, L. Lisvane, L. Rosser, L. Young of Old Scone, B. Featherstone, B. London, Bp. Filkin, L. Loomba, L. NOT CONTENTS Finlay of Llandaff, B. Low of Dalston, L. Foster of Bath, L. Ludford, B. Aberdare, L. Altmann, B. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Macdonald of River Glaven, Agnew of Oulton, L. Anderson of Ipswich, L. Fox, L. L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. 1911 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1912

Arbuthnot of Edrom, L. Framlingham, L. McLoughlin, L. Seccombe, B. Arran, E. Fraser of Craigmaddie, B. Mendoza, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Freud, L. Meyer, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Astor of Hever, L. Frost, L. Mobarik, B. Sharpe of Epsom, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Fullbrook, B. Mone, B. Sheikh, L. Balfe, L. Gadhia, L. Montrose, D. Shephard of Northwold, B. Barran, B. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Moore of Etchingham , L. Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. Bates, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Morgan of Cotes, B. Shields, B. Bellingham, L. Garnier, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Shinkwin, L. Morrissey, B. Benyon, L. Geddes, L. Shrewsbury, E. Berridge, B. Glenarthur, L. Morrow, L. Moylan, L. Smith of Hindhead, L. Bertin, B. Godson, L. Spencer of Alresford, L. Bethell, L. Gold, L. Moynihan, L. Naseby, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Bhatia, L. Goldie, B. Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, Blackwell, L. Goldsmith of Richmond Nash, L. Neville-Jones, B. L. Blackwood of North Oxford, Park, L. Stewart of Dirleton, L. B. Goodlad, L. Neville-Rolfe, B. Stowell of Beeston, B. Blencathra, L. Goschen, V. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Bloomfield of Hinton Grade of Yarmouth, L. B. Strathclyde, L. Waldrist, B. Green of Deddington, L. Noakes, B. Stroud, B. Borwick, L. Greengross, B. Northbrook, L. Stuart of Edgbaston, B. Botham, L. Greenhalgh, L. Norton of Louth, L. Sugg, B. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. O’Shaughnessy, L. Suri, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Grimstone of Boscobel, L. Parkinson of Whitley Bay, L. Swinfen, L. Brady, B. Hailsham, V. Penn, B. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Bridges of Headley, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Pickles, L. Taylor of Warwick, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Hammond of Runnymede, L. Pidding, B. Tebbit, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Hannan of Kingsclere, L. Polak, L. Trefgarne, L. Browning, B. Harris of Peckham, L. Popat, L. Trenchard, V. Brownlow of Shurlock Row, Haselhurst, L. Porter of Spalding, L. Trimble, L. L. Hay of Ballyore, L. Powell of Bayswater, L. True, L. Buscombe, B. Hayward, L. Price, L. Truscott, L. Caine, L. Henley, L. Rana, L. Tugendhat, L. Caithness, E. Herbert of South Downs, L. Randall of Uxbridge, L. Udny-Lister, L. Callanan, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Ranger, L. Ullswater, V. Carrington of Fulham, L. Hodgson of Abinger, B. Reay, L. Vaizey of Didcot, L. Carrington, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Redfern, B. Vere of Norbiton, B. Cathcart, E. L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Wakeham, L. Cavendish of Little Venice, B. Hoey, B. Ribeiro, L. Waldegrave of North Hill, L. Chadlington, L. Holmes of Richmond, L. Ridley, V. Wasserman, L. Chisholm of Owlpen, B. Hooper, B. Risby, L. Wei, L. Choudrey, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Robathan, L. Wharton of Yarm, L. Colgrain, L. Howard of Rising, L. Rock, B. Whitby, L. Colwyn, L. Howe, E. Rogan, L. Willetts, L. Cormack, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Rose of Monewden, L. Williams of Trafford, B. Courtown, E. Hunt of Wirral, L. Sanderson of Welton, B. Wolfson of Tredegar, L. Couttie, B. Inglewood, L. Sarfraz, L. Wyld, B. Crathorne, L. James of Blackheath, L. Sassoon, L. Young of Cookham, L. Cruddas, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sater, B. Young of Graffham, L. Cumberlege, B. Johnson of Marylebone, L. Scott of Bybrook, B. Younger of Leckie, V. Davies of Gower, L. Jopling, L. De Mauley, L. Kamall, L. 5.03 pm Deben, L. Keen of Elie, L. Deech, B. King of Bridgwater, L. Devon, E. Kirkham, L. Dobbs, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. Motion F Dodds of Duncairn, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Duncan of Springbank, L. Lancaster of Kimbolton, L. Dundee, E. Lang of Monkton, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendments 41 Dunlop, L. Lansley, L. Eaton, B. Leigh of Hurley, L. and 43, to which the Commons have disagreed for Eccles of Moulton, B. Lexden, L. their Reasons 41A and 43A Eccles, V. Lilley, L. 41A: Because the Amendment would involve a charge on Empey, L. Lindsay, E. public funds, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, Erroll, E. Lingfield, L. trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient. Evans of Bowes Park, B. Liverpool, E. Fairfax of Cameron, L. Livingston of Parkhead, L. 43A: Because the Amendment would involve a charge on Fairhead, B. Lucas, L. public funds, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, Fall, B. Lytton, E. trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient. Farmer, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Faulks, L. Mancroft, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Manzoor, B. Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, Fink, L. Marland, L. noble Lords will recall that Amendment 41 sought to Flight, L. McCrea of Magherafelt and provide at least six months of leave to remain and Fookes, B. Cookstown, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. McGregor-Smith, B. access to public funds to all migrant victims of domestic Foster of Oxton, B. McInnes of Kilwinning, L. abuse and provide them with a route to apply for Fox of Buckley, B. McIntosh of Pickering, B. settlement. In so doing, this amendment effectively 1913 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1914

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] for permanent residents of the UK. Automatically sought to expand the existing destitution domestic waiving the no recourse to public funds conditions for violence concession so that it made provision for all all migrant victims of domestic abuse, irrespective of migrant victims of domestic abuse, irrespective of the their diverse financial circumstances and needs, would wide range of circumstances represented in this group. not seem to be an appropriate course of action. The underlying objective of Amendment 43 was similar What is more, to provide access to public funds one in kind to Amendment 41; that is, to secure equally must also necessarily confer leave. The two cannot be effective protection and support for all victims of disaggregated in the manner suggested by the amendment. domestic abuse, irrespective of their status, as provided It is for this reason that we have launched the support for in the Istanbul convention. The Commons disagreed for migrant victims scheme, which can provide support with these amendments on the basis that they gave rise for migrant victims of domestic abuse with no recourse to a charge on public funds. to public funds. We think the support that will be Given the Commons’ reason, I welcome the fact available through the scheme will, in practice, ensure that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester that the majority of migrant victims without recourse and my noble friend Lady Helic have come forward to public funds will receive the support they need with substantially different amendments. I will take the directly from the support organisation, without the new Amendments 41B and 43B in turn. Amendment 41B, need to access those funds. in essence, seeks to lift the no recourse to public funds condition for migrant victims of domestic abuse until As I have pointed out during earlier debates on the the conclusion of the support for migrant victims Bill, we still need more information and evidence to scheme. The amendment also provides that within two inform longer-term policy decisions and to ensure that months of the scheme’s conclusion the Secretary of funding is appropriately targeted to meet the needs of State must consult the domestic abuse commissioner migrant victims. I am therefore very happy to inform and specialist sector and publish a strategy for the the House that we have now awarded the funding for long-term provision for victims who do not have leave the £1.5 million support for migrant victims scheme to or have leave subject to the no recourse to public funds Southall Black Sisters. We will work together with condition. Southall Black Sisters and an independent external evaluator to ensure that this scheme provides protection I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for her and support for migrant victims of domestic abuse careful consideration of debate thus far and acknowledge with no recourse to public funds, as well as supplying the effort she has made to separate out the immediate the evidence that we need to inform subsequent policy. needs of victims from their immigration status in the revised amendment. However, the Government still do The scheme is designed to provide support to those not think that this amendment would provide an individuals who fall through the gaps of other support appropriate way forward. The notion of an automatic mechanisms, such as the destitution domestic violence waiver of the no recourse to public funds condition concession. It provides a safety net of support through raises some concerns. Furthermore, I highlight to noble provision of accommodation in a refuge or other Lords that, like its predecessor, this revised amendment relevant safe accommodation. Also, the scheme can will inevitably also involve a significant charge on public offer wraparound provision, including emotional support funds. and more practical support such as immigration advice Our concerns about Amendment 41B are practical to aid victims in their recovery and in navigating the and principled. Perhaps I may deal with the practical options available to them to move on from that support. difficulties first. The support for migrant victims scheme In that sense, it already goes further than the rather will commence imminently—by which point, under blunt mechanism of simply granting access to public the terms of this amendment, a process by which to funds; the support that it provides can be tailored to lift the no recourse to public funds condition for the needs of individual victims. migrant victims of domestic abuse would need to be Amendment 43B was put forward by my noble operating. This would carry with it both considerable friend Lady Helic. I assure her that the Government cost and logistical difficulty. It is not a change that remain committed to ratifying the Istanbul convention could be delivered in time for the start of the scheme. as soon as practicable, and the swift enactment of this Even assuming such practical difficulties could be Bill will be a significant milestone in enabling that to overcome, we have, as I have said, more fundamental happen. I welcome how her revised amendment now concerns about implications of this amendment. focuses on the provision of accommodation-based Broadly speaking, successive Governments have taken support under Part 4, but I contend that it is not the view that access to publicly-funded benefits and needed because the duty on tier 1 local authorities services should normally reflect the strength of a operates in respect of all victims of domestic abuse migrant’s connections to the UK. We think that such and their children in need of accommodation-based access should become available to migrants only when support in their area. We will make clear through the they have settled here. These restrictions are an important statutory guidance under Part 4 that local authorities plank of immigration policy, operated, as I have said, and local partnership boards will be required to take by successive Governments, and they are applicable to steps to understand the additional barriers that may all migrants until they qualify for indefinite leave to prevent victims with protected characteristics accessing remain. The policy is designed to assure the public support in safe accommodation services. Local strategies that controlled immigration brings real benefits to the will also need to set out clearly how tier 1 authorities, UK but does not lead to excessive demands on the working with and through the board, will address the UK’sfinite resources, and that public funds are protected barriers identified. 1915 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1916

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, (k) other evidence of domestic abuse, including from a counsellor, my noble friend Lady Helic and the noble Baroness, midwife, school, witness or the victim. Lady Hamwee, are to be commended for championing (4) The Secretary of State must, within 2 months of the the cause of migrant victims. We all broadly want to completion of the pilot Support for Migrant Victims Scheme achieve the same outcome, albeit that we have different announced by the Government on 14 April 2021— views on how best to achieve it. I hope that in the light (a) consult the Domestic Abuse Commissioner and specialist organisations that work with victims of abuse on the impact of of the votes in the elected House and the reasons that this section on victims; it has given for disagreeing with these amendments (b) publish a strategy for the long-term provision of support they and all noble Lords will be content to agree for victims of domestic abuse who do not have leave to remain or Motion F. As I have indicated, the support for migrant have leave to remain subject to a condition under section 3(1)(c) victims scheme will soon be up and running. I am sure of the Immigration Act 1971.”” that the right reverend Prelate and others will be as keen as me to see the outcome of the scheme and will, The Lord Bishop of Gloucester [V]: My Lords, I will quite properly, continue to press the Government to listen carefully to what the Government say in response act on its conclusions. I beg to move. but, as things stand, I am minded to test the opinion of the House. I draw attention to my interests as stated Motion F1 (as an amendment to Motion F) in the register. I thank the Minister for her work and thank the team of Ministers who have remained so committed to this Bill and have listened deeply. I am Moved by The Lord Bishop of Gloucester grateful for all the time that I have been given to discuss this, but I remain hugely frustrated. At end insert “and do propose Amendment 41B I listened very carefully last week as the other place in lieu of Amendment 41— considered the amendments that we made to the Bill. 41B: After Clause 72, insert the following new Clause— The Government’s solution to this issue, as we have “Recourse to public funds for duration of pilot scheme just heard, is the pilot support for migrant victims (1) For the duration of the pilot Support for Migrant Victims scheme. This is insufficient. Although the Minister has Scheme announced by the Government on 14 April 2021, the just spoken warmly of what it will provide, it is for a Secretary of State must make provision that a person who— limited number of people only. It is estimated that the (a) is a victim of domestic abuse; and pilot project will not be able to provide the holistic (b) provides evidence in one or more of the forms in subsection wraparound support needed to aid recovery, even by (3); shall not be subject to restrictions on recourse to public funds, those women who access it. It is likely that organisations due to their immigration status, provided for in the provisions listed in subsection (2). will need to provide extra support, using donations and other funds, to cover services such as counselling (2) The provisions referred to in subsection (1) are— and therapeutic support and medical, travel and legal (a) section (3)(1)(c)(ii) of the Immigration Act 1971; costs.The pilot project will therefore remain an inadequate (b) section 115 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999; means to assess needs. (c) Schedule 3 to the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002; I remain committed, as I know others do, to ensuring (d) section 21 of the Immigration Act 2014. that the Bill is as good as it can be for all victims of (3) For the purposes of this section, evidence that a person is a domestic abuse. Amid all the debate and discussion, I victim of domestic abuse may consist of one or more of the return again and again to the people—the men, women following— and children—behind the words and policies. No person (a) a relevant conviction, police caution or protection notice; should be subject to the horrors of domestic violence, (b) a relevant court order (including without notice, ex parte, coercion and control. The degradation of humanity in interim or final orders), including a non-molestation undertaking this manner is an evil, and we must do all that we can or order, occupation order, domestic abuse protection order, to stamp it out. forced marriage protection order or other protective injunction; (c) evidence of relevant criminal proceedings for an offence 5.15 pm concerning domestic violence or a police report confirming attendance at an incident resulting from domestic abuse; I know even as I say this that the Minister and the (d) evidence that a victim has been referred to a multi-agency Government will agree with me on this, for which I am risk assessment conference; thankful. However, the Government’s answer regarding (e) a finding of fact in the family courts of domestic abuse; the rejection of the original amendment is the solution (f) a medical report from a doctor at a UK hospital confirming of the pilot project. I want to stress again how woefully injuries or a condition consistent with being a victim of domestic inadequate that is. It was my sincere hope that the abuse; other place would retain the addition to extend access (g) a letter from a General Medical Council registered general to support services for the small but vulnerable group practitioner confirming that he or she is satisfied on the basis of of migrant victims of abuse, mainly women. Without an examination that a person had injuries or a condition consistent it, the Bill will not be all that it could be. with those of a victim of domestic abuse; As I said, I am delighted that the pilot support for (h) an undertaking given to a court by the alleged perpetrator migrant victims scheme has been awarded to Southall of domestic abuse that he or she will not approach the applicant who is the victim of the abuse; Black Sisters, which has assisted me with this amendment. (i) a letter from a social services department confirming its Organisations such as this have extensive experience in involvement in providing services to a person in respect of allegations supporting victims of domestic abuse, restoring dignity of domestic abuse; and giving hope. Having undertaken a great deal of (j) a letter of support or a report from a domestic abuse research already, they know the extent of the problem support organisation; or regarding migrant victims who have no recourse to 1917 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1918

[THE LORD BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER] migrant victims have been working on this issue. I am public funds and who, when refused services such as particularly grateful to the noble Baroness,Lady Hamwee, accommodation, will in all likelihood return to abusive for her support on Report. I am also tremendously partners or find themselves at the mercy of those who grateful to End Violence Against Women for its assistance; exploit their vulnerability. I would like to take one last opportunity to praise it Mindful that financial privilege has been applied, and organisations such as Southall Black Sisters and the provisions proposed in this revised amendment are the Latin American Women’s Rights Service for the time-limited to 12 months, the duration of the pilot extremely important work they do. support for migrant victims scheme, so will run for the My noble friend the Minister has been generous length of the pilot. This greatly reduces the cost with her time and has worked tremendously hard on implications and has the added benefit of ensuring this Bill, and I recognise that the Government have that no person who needs support is excluded. It will made some very important concessions elsewhere. I also allow really informative data to be collected. am sorry that we have not yet been able to put in better If the Government truly believe the game-changing protection and support for the migrant victims who so pilot will meet the needs of the current eligible population, desperately need it. However, I am grateful for the it stands to reason that the cost implications are not Minister’s commitment on the statutory guidance just high at all. If the Government’s projection is that offered. the pilot will be insufficient to such a degree that the Of the various amendments relating to migrant amendment would create serious additional costs, the victims, the original Amendment 43 passed with the pilot is clearly inadequate. It cannot logically be true largest majority in your Lordships’ House. I believe that the pilot is sufficient and game-changing and that that this in part reflects the strength of feeling around the amendment would create significant extra costs. In the Istanbul convention. Since we last debated this addition, this amendment seeks agreement from the amendment on Report, Turkey has withdrawn from Government that the domestic abuse commissioner the convention—a serious backward step for millions and specialist organisations will be consulted at the of women. It is one that makes our own failure, or end of the pilot scheme. It asks for agreement to inability, to ratify almost nine years after we signed all publish a strategy for the long-term provision of support the less excusable. We should be leading the charge for for victims of domestic abuse who do not have leave to women’s rights around the world, yet we cannot get remain or have leave to remain subject to a condition. our own house in order. I will take a few moments to draw attention to a contradiction in the Government’s reasoning. During Motion F2 is a significant concession. It would not the passage of the Bill, we have heard about the create any additional financial duties. It is much more devastating impact of revenge porn. The LawCommission limited in scope than its predecessor, dealing only with is currently reviewing the law on intimate image abuse, local authority strategies—not with all aspects of support while at the same time the Government have recognised and protection—and making non-discrimination a the need for immediate action. We ask that the same consideration rather than an absolute requirement. I logic be applied to migrant victims of abuse. We know am glad that my noble friend recognised that this that the pilot scheme, although arguably insufficient, amendment does not pre-empt the pilot project and will report on the extent of this issue. At the same reviews currently under way but could still improve time, we hear that vulnerable migrant victims of abuse the lives of some of the most vulnerable victims of will be left out. We ask simply that support be offered domestic abuse. It could make all the difference for to these victims for the duration of the scheme and them between getting the support that they need to that a thorough review is undertaken on its completion. escape to build a new life and remaining trapped, stuck with abusers who use immigration status as one I will make one last point. The New Plan for more weapon in their arsenal. Immigration states as follows for victims of modern slavery: I fear that we will have missed an important “We will make clear, for the first time in legislation, that opportunity if we do not manage to embed greater confirmed victims with long-term recovery needs linked to their protection and support for migrant victims in the Bill. modern slavery exploitation may be eligible for a grant of temporary I know that the demands on the Government are leave to remain (subject to any public order exemption) to assist many and varied, and that future action, though promised, their recovery, building on our end-to-end needs-based approach can easily slip. We have before us legislation and a to supporting victims. We will also make clear that temporary ready opportunity to improve the lives of desperate, leave to remain may be available to victims who are helping the police with prosecutions and bringing their exploiters to justice.” vulnerable victims and give them some protection, While I welcome this approach, I am interested to support and dignity, and a chance to become something hear from the Minister why a route to leave to remain more than victims. The various amendments being to assist recovery is possible in the case of one set of proposed—Motion F2, Motion F1 and, earlier, Motion victims of serious crime, but not in another. I am E1—are chances to act. They are more limited in interested to hear all that will be discussed today, and I scope and ambition than earlier amendments, but they am very grateful to noble Lords who support this could still make real improvements to the lives of amendment. I beg to move. women and men experiencing abuse. I am sorry that the Government have not embraced them. Baroness Helic (Con) [V]: My Lords, it is a pleasure I hope that my noble friend the Minister will at to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of least be able to offer us some prospect of progress on Gloucester. I know how hard she and the other noble the Istanbul convention. She said “as soon as practicable”, Lords who have backed amendments on support for but I am afraid that that is still indefinite. A timetable 1919 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1920 for ratification—a yardstick by which we could monitor domestic abuse. This alternative amendment is the and observe progress in the future—would be very very least the Government should do for these particularly welcome. If we cannot legislate, at least we can scrutinise. vulnerable victims of domestic abuse, and we would A firmer commitment to full ratification without any support the right reverend Prelate were she to divide reservations, sooner rather than later, would be a point the House. of light in a world where women’s rights are slipping Lords Amendment 43 would have ensured that all backwards as often as they are marching forwards. victims of domestic abuse received equal protection I do not want to hold up this Bill. I know that and support irrespective of their status, including their timing is tight, and the last thing anyone wants is for it immigration status. The Commons reason for disagreeing to fail. I am grateful to have taken this issue this far was that it would and to have had such resounding cross-party support “involve a charge on public funds”. for both the Istanbul convention and the important Indeed it might—but it would also have been a significant issue of non-discrimination—which, I should note, step towards the UK finally being able to ratify the goes much wider than just migrant victims, although Istanbul convention. The noble Baroness, Lady Helic, they have been my main focus in your Lordships’ has proposed an alternative amendment that would at House. I hope that the Government will not forget the least ensure that local authorities consider the needs of strong arguments that have been heard across all stages all victims, including migrant women, when they make of the Bill. Above all, I hope that they will not forget strategic decisions about tackling domestic abuse. This the powerful testimonies of survivors that have featured. cannot be the landmark Bill the Government intend it Their voices are our inspiration and courage. I hope to be unless it puts the final pieces into place to enable that we can give them the support and protection they the UK to ratify the Istanbul convention. I recall an deserve. expression my mother was fond of: “Don’t spoil the ship for a ha’porth of tar.” The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD): The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I was hoping that this Bill could be, like the Modern has withdrawn. I have no notification of unlisted Slavery Act, a magnificent piece of legislation of which speakers, but does anyone in the Chamber wish to speak? all sides of the House could be justifiably proud. We No. In that case, I call the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. have already vastly improved the Bill in this House; it would be a shame if we now left it less than watertight. Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, I start by joining other noble Lords in paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]: As we have heard, Lords Lady Hamwee, who has been a passionate campaigner Amendments 41 and 43 were both disagreed by the on these issues. I was going to say that she had stepped Commons because they would involve a charge on down from the Front Bench, but she has stepped up to public funds. The Commons did not offer any further bigger and better things in the House, and I personally reason. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of will miss her greatly. Gloucester and the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, have Lords Amendment 41 would have provided a route now tabled Amendments F1 and F2. The amendment for victims of domestic abuse who are subject to from the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, provides that immigration control to be given the opportunity to apply local authorities “must have regard” to Article 4(3) of for leave to remain—not given leave to remain but the Istanbul convention when they are preparing their given the opportunity to apply—by allowing them to strategy for accommodation-based services under the stay in the UK pending the outcome of their application Bill. Article 4(3) of the convention provides that protection and to be supported financially during this time. Many for victims must be secured without discrimination of these victims are reliant on their abusive partner for based on any ground such as race, religion or migrant support, making escape from domestic abuse almost status. We support the aim of this amendment, which impossible. Initially, the Government said the reason also serves to remind the Government of their they objected was that they thought people might commitment to ratify the vital Istanbul convention, falsely claim to be victims of domestic abuse in order for which they have not yet set a timeframe. Perhaps to seek leave to remain in the UK. Again, we have to we will hear something definite on this point in the ask: what is more important, protecting vulnerable Government’s response to this amendment. victims of domestic abuse or immigration control? The Commons reason is simply 5.30 pm “Because the Amendment would involve a charge on public We cannot claim to be seriously tackling domestic funds”. abuse unless we are tackling it for every victim. That The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester means providing support to anyone living with this has presented an alternative amendment, a very modest awful crime. Abuse does not stop because of a person’s amendment, that seeks to address all the concerns the immigration status, and potentially life-saving support Government have previously expressed. There is a should not be stopped because of a person’s immigration £1.5 million 12-month pilot supporting such victims status. of domestic abuse, and the amendment simply ensures The Motion moved by the right reverend Prelate that, during the pilot period, victims are not turned the Bishop of Gloucester simply asks that no recourse down because of a lack of funds. It then sets a to public funds be lifted for all migrant victims of timetable for the introduction of a permanent solution domestic abuse for the duration of the Government’s once the results of the pilot have been evaluated. The pilot programme, titled Support for Migrant Victims. amendment comprehensively sets out the evidence The pilot programme covers migrant victims of domestic necessary to show that someone is a genuine victim of abuse on, for example, student, visitor or work visas, 1921 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1922

[LORD ROSSER] Lords have done is turning the Bill into a magnificent or who are here without authority, who are not eligible Bill of which we can be rightly proud, and the Government for existing support schemes. It is intended to provide have gone some way in meeting the concerns of your access to safe accommodation and specialist services Lordships’House. A significant number of amendments for these victims. The Government have accepted that from the Government and from noble Lords have there is a need for the pilot and for victims of domestic been accepted. The Bill is well on its way to being a abuse to have access to services for a 12-month period. magnificent Bill and this has been a good debate. If they have accepted this for some victims, how can it We all agree that all victims of domestic abuse not be right to ensure that all victims have access to should be treated first and foremost as victims and support for that short timeframe? have access to the support that they need. I welcome Southall Black Sisters, who will run the pilot, estimates the fact that the right reverend Prelate’srevised amendment that the resources the Government have made available now seeks to draw a distinction between the issue of for it can support only 300 to 500 women so, as the leave to remain and the provision of support. As I shadow Minister in the Commons said: said, her Amendment 41B does not quite achieve that, “What happens … when the 501st victim visits?”—[Official in that the no recourse to public funds condition is Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 524.] intrinsically bound up with a person’s immigration The answer is precisely what happens now. Victims of status. In any event, we continue to believe that the domestic violence remain trapped in the abuse they Support for Migrant Victims scheme, together with suffer because, without access to public funds and the other existing arrangements such as the destitute domestic associated support and protection, they have nowhere violence concession, are the right mechanisms to ensure they can go away from their abusers and those who that victims of domestic abuse who are subject to exploit them. Safe accommodation is not available to immigration control get the support they need. them because they do not have the resources to pay On costs, the revised amendment lifts the no recourse and they cannot afford such key things as counselling, to public funds conditions for the duration of the children’s costs and travel costs. scheme—that is, for 12 months. Even under the DDVC, Lifting no recourse to public funds for the duration leave is granted for three months, so waiving the of the pilot programme would address this and assist NRPF condition for a year incurs significant new in delivering the Government’sdeclared aim of gathering costs. My noble friend Lady Helic and the noble Lord, data to determine the scale of the problem and the Lord Rosser, talked about progress towards ratifying needs of victims in order to build a sustainable programme the Istanbul convention. Weare already under a statutory of support arrangements for migrant victims. How duty to report annually on that progress towards can you fully assess the scale of the problem and the ratification and the next report is due in October. needs of all the victims of abuse that the pilot is In conclusion, I welcome this constructive debate intended to cover if, in the absence of access to public and the efforts of the right reverend Prelate and my funds during the pilot, many victims are not able to noble friend to find alternative legislative solutions. come forward and seek help and thus remain largely However,Amendment 43B will still result in a significant hidden from view? The right reverend Prelate commented call on public funds and I suspect will invite the same on the contradiction between the Government arguing, response from the Commons as Amendment 43. In on the one hand, that the pilot scheme is “game-changing” the context of Part 4 of the Bill, my noble friend’s and, on the other hand, that the amendment will have Amendment 43B is unnecessary, as the duty in Part 4 a significant impact on public funds. will operate in respect of all victims of domestic abuse This amendment is a significantly reduced ask from and their children. As I have indicated, we remain the previous amendment on this issue, with which the firmly of the view that the Support for Migrant Victims Commons disagreed but which had the support of the scheme is the way forward. It will provide access to Victims’ Commissioner and the designate domestic safe accommodation for migrant victims who need it abuse commissioner. In the Commons, when debating and the evidence that we need to take decisions for the the previous amendment on this issue passed on Report long term about how best to support this group of in this House, the government Minister said: victims. On that basis I invite the House to agree to “We accept that not all migrant victims have access to the Motion F. necessary support and we need to address that … we want to help such victims to recover and escape such relationships.”—[Official The Lord Bishop of Gloucester [V]: I thank the Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 521.] Minister for her words and I thank deeply all noble Accepting Motion F1 will help to achieve those Lords who have spoken so passionately in this debate objectives, at least during the pilot scheme. Opposing and really added extra substance to my arguments. I it will not. We will support it if the right reverend am left still feeling very frustrated. I hear the Minister Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester decides to test the opinion talk about the support that is available, but I still feel of the House. It is one last ask on access to Support that what is not being named is all the people for whom for Migrant Victims. It is only short term for the duration the support is not available while this pilot happens. of the pilot exercise but it could save lives. With all due respect, the Minister has not answered my questions about the inconsistency in the Bill regarding Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, the sharing of intimate sexual images and the Government I thank all noble Lords for taking part in this debate. I recognising that there is a case for immediate action start by quoting the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who there, despite the fact that there is an ongoing Law said that this should be a “magnificent” Bill of which Commission review—so we already have that situation we can be rightly proud. Some of the work that noble happening in a different part of the Bill. 1923 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1924

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, Grocott, L. McNicol of West Kilbride, L. for quoting Jess Phillips MP in the other House, who Hain, L. Mendelsohn, L. raised that really important question: what happens Hamwee, B. Merron, B. when the 501st victim comes forward? There will not Hannay of Chiswick, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Hanworth, V. B. be anything. There seems to be a lot of fear going on Harris of Haringey, L. Mitchell, L. here, and a lot of assumptions. The whole point of this Harris of Richmond, B. Monks, L. amendment is that it is time limited and not risking Haskel, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. the immigration system being exploited, because it Haworth, L. Morris of Yardley, B. will be subject to a review at the end of 12 months. Hay of Ballyore, L. Morrow, L. Hayman of Ullock, B. Murphy of Torfaen, L. So I do feel frustrated. I hear what is being said, but Hayman, B. Neuberger, B. I want to seek the opinion of the House because I Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Newby, L. believe that this amendment would improve what is Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Newcastle, Bp. already a good Bill. This would make it really good. Hendy, L. Newlove, B. I beg leave to seek the opinion of the House. Henig, B. Northover, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Nye, B. 5.41 pm Hollick, L. Oates, L. Hollins, B. Osamor, B. Division conducted remotely on Motion F1 Howarth of Newport, L. Paddick, L. Humphreys, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Contents 292; Not-Contents 233. Hunt of Bethnal Green, B. Parekh, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Parminter, B. Motion F1 agreed. Hussain, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Division No. 3 Hussein-Ece, B. Patel, L. Hutton of Furness, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. CONTENTS Janke, B. Prashar, B. Jay of Paddington, B. Prescott, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Cashman, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Primarolo, B. Adebowale, L. Chakrabarti, B. Jones of Moulsecoomb, B. Prosser, B. Adonis, L. Chapman of Darlington, B. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Purvis of Tweed, L. Alderdice, L. Chartres, L. Jones, L. Puttnam, L. Allan of Hallam, L. Chidgey, L. Jordan, L. Quin, B. Allen of Kensington, L. Clark of Kilwinning, B. Kakkar, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Alli, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Randerson, B. Alton of Liverpool, L. Clement-Jones, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Razzall, L. Amos, B. Coaker, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Rebuck, B. Anderson of Swansea, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Kerslake, L. Redesdale, L. Bach, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Khan of Burnley, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Barker, B. Corston, B. Kidron, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Cotter, L. Kilclooney, L. Rennard, L. Beecham, L. Coussins, B. Knight of Weymouth, L. Ricketts, L. Beith, L. Craig of Radley, L. Kramer, B. Ritchie of Downpatrick, B. Benjamin, B. Crawley, B. Laming, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Bennett of Manor Castle, B. Cunningham of Felling, L. Lawrence of Clarendon, B. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Berkeley, L. Curry of Kirkharle, L. Layard, L. Rooker, L. Best, L. Davies of Brixton, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Rosser, L. Bichard, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Billingham, B. Derby, Bp. Levy, L. Rowlands, L. Blackstone, B. Donaghy, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Blake of Leeds, B. Doocey, B. Liddle, L. Salisbury, Bp. Blower, B. Drake, B. Lipsey, L. Sandwich, E. Blunkett, L. D’Souza, B. Lister of Burtersett, B. Sawyer, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Dubs, L. Lisvane, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. B. Eatwell, L. London, Bp. Scriven, L. Bowles of Berkhamsted, B. Etherton, L. Loomba, L. Sharkey, L. Bowness, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Sheehan, B. Boycott, B. Featherstone, B. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Sherlock, B. Bradley, L. Filkin, L. L. Shipley, L. Bradshaw, L. Foster of Bath, L. Mallalieu, B. Sikka, L. Bragg, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Manchester, Bp. Simon, V. Brennan, L. Fox, L. Mandelson, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Brinton, B. Freyberg, L. Mann, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Manningham-Buller, B. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Brookeborough, V. German, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Smith of Newnham, B. Brown of Cambridge, B. Giddens, L. L. Snape, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Glasgow, E. Masham of Ilton, B. Soley, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. Gloucester, Bp. Massey of Darwen, B. Somerset, D. Bruce of Bennachie, L. Goddard of Stockport, L. Maxton, L. St Albans, Bp. Bryan of Partick, B. Golding, B. McAvoy, L. St John of Bletso, L. Bull, B. Goldsmith, L. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Stern of Brentford, L. Burt of Solihull, B. Goudie, B. L. Stern, B. Campbell of Pittenweem, L. Grabiner, L. McCrea of Magherafelt and Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Campbell of Surbiton, B. Grantchester, L. Cookstown, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. McDonagh, B. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Carey of Clifton, L. Greenway, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Strasburger, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Grey-Thompson, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Stunell, L. Carter of Coles, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. McNally, L. Suttie, B. 1925 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1926

Taverne, L. Warsi, B. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Pickles, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. L. Polak, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Hoey, B. Popat, L. Teverson, L. West of Spithead, L. Hogg, B. Porter of Spalding, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Wheatcroft, B. Holmes of Richmond, L. Price, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Wheeler, B. Hooper, B. Randall of Uxbridge, L. Thornhill, B. Whitaker, B. Horam, L. Ranger, L. Thornton, B. Whitty, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Rawlings, B. Thurlow, L. Wigley, L. Howard of Rising, L. Reay, L. Thurso, V. Wilcox of Newport, B. Howe, E. Redfern, B. Tope, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Touhig, L. Wills, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Ribeiro, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Wilson of Dinton, L. Inglewood, L. Ridley, V. Turnberg, L. Winchester, Bp. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Risby, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Winston, L. Jopling, L. Robathan, L. Tyler, L. Woodley, L. Kamall, L. Rock, B. Uddin, B. Woolley of Woodford, L. Keen of Elie, L. Rogan, L. Verjee, L. Worcester, Bp. King of Bridgwater, L. Rose of Monewden, L. Walker of Aldringham, L. Wrigglesworth, L. Kirkham, L. Rotherwick, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. Saatchi, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Young of Old Scone, B. Lancaster of Kimbolton, L. Sanderson of Welton, B. Lang of Monkton, L. Sarfraz, L. Lansley, L. Sassoon, L. NOT CONTENTS Leigh of Hurley, L. Sater, B. Aberdare, L. Cumberlege, B. Lexden, L. Scott of Bybrook, B. Agnew of Oulton, L. Davies of Gower, L. Lindsay, E. Seccombe, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. De Mauley, L. Lingfield, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Altmann, B. Deech, B. Liverpool, E. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Anderson of Ipswich, L. Deighton, L. Livingston of Parkhead, L. Sharpe of Epsom, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. Duncan of Springbank, L. Lothian, M. Sheikh, L. Arbuthnot of Edrom, L. Dundee, E. Lucas, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Arran, E. Dunlop, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Eaton, B. Mancroft, L. Smith of Hindhead, L. Astor of Hever, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Manzoor, B. Spencer of Alresford, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Eccles, V. Marland, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Balfe, L. Erroll, E. Maude of Horsham, L. Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, Barran, B. Evans of Bowes Park, B. Mawson, L. L. Bates, L. Fairfax of Cameron, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Stirrup, L. Bellingham, L. Fairhead, B. McDonald of Salford, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Benyon, L. Fall, B. McGregor-Smith, B. Strathclyde, L. Berridge, B. Fink, L. McInnes of Kilwinning, L. Stuart of Edgbaston, B. Bethell, L. Finn, B. McIntosh of Pickering, B. Suri, L. Bhatia, L. Fleet, B. McLoughlin, L. Swinfen, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Flight, L. Mendoza, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Blackwood of North Oxford, Fookes, B. Meyer, B. Trefgarne, L. B. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Mobarik, B. Trenchard, V. Blencathra, L. Foster of Oxton, B. Mone, B. Trimble, L. Bloomfield of Hinton Framlingham, L. Moore of Etchingham , L. Tugendhat, L. Waldrist, B. Fraser of Craigmaddie, B. Morgan of Cotes, B. Udny-Lister, L. Borwick, L. Freud, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Ullswater, V. Botham, L. Fullbrook, B. Morrissey, B. Vaizey of Didcot, L. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Gadhia, L. Moylan, L. Vaux of Harrowden, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Moynihan, L. Vere of Norbiton, B. Brady, B. Gardner of Parkes, B. Nash, L. Verma, B. Bridges of Headley, L. Garnier, L. Neville-Jones, B. Wakeham, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Geddes, L. Neville-Rolfe, B. Waldegrave of North Hill, L. Browning, B. Glenarthur, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Wasserman, L. Brownlow of Shurlock Row, Godson, L. B. Wei, L. L. Goldie, B. Noakes, B. Wharton of Yarm, L. Buscombe, B. Goldsmith of Richmond Northbrook, L. Whitby, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Park, L. Norton of Louth, L. Willetts, L. Caine, L. Goodlad, L. O’Shaughnessy, L. Williams of Trafford, B. Caithness, E. Goschen, V. Pannick, L. Wolfson of Tredegar, L. Callanan, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Parkinson of Whitley Bay, L. Young of Cookham, L. Carrington of Fulham, L. Greengross, B. Patten, L. Young of Graffham, L. Carrington, L. Greenhalgh, L. Penn, B. Younger of Leckie, V. Cathcart, E. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Grimstone of Boscobel, L. 5.56 pm Chisholm of Owlpen, B. Hailsham, V. Choudrey, L. Hallett, B. Motion F2 not moved. Clarke of Nottingham, L. Hammond of Runnymede, L. Coe, L. Hannan of Kingsclere, L. Colgrain, L. Harris of Peckham, L. Motion G Colwyn, L. Haselhurst, L. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Cormack, L. Hayward, L. Courtown, E. Henley, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendment 42 Couttie, B. Herbert of South Downs, L. anddoagreewiththeCommonsintheirAmendments42A, Crathorne, L. Hodgson of Abinger, B. 42B and 42C in lieu. 1927 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1928

42A: Before Clause 69, insert the following new Clause— the amendment would actually achieve, and that is “Strategy for prosecution and management of offenders worthy of clarification. An example of this concerns (1) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period the report that has been circulated, which many noble of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, Lords have raised, that outlines 30 harrowing and prepare and publish a document setting out a strategy for— extremely distressing cases of women and children (a) detecting, investigating and prosecuting offences involving who have been murdered or seriously injured by violent domestic abuse, perpetrators. Based on the information provided in (b) assessing and managing the risks posed by individuals who the report, in many of these examples the perpetrator commit offences involving domestic abuse, and would already have been eligible for management under (c) reducing the risk that such individuals commit further the current MAPPA provisions or the proposed offences involving domestic abuse. amendment would not have made a difference because (2) The Secretary of State— the perpetrator had not been previously convicted. (a) must keep the strategy under review; What is clear from those examples is that the systems (b) may revise it. were not always working as they should and victims (3) If the Secretary of State revises the strategy, the Secretary were let down. Those cases illustrate the need for a of State must publish a document setting out the revised strategy. changed agency response to perpetrators so that they (4) In preparing or revising a strategy under this section, the Secretary of State must consult— are brought to justice earlier and agencies work together (a) the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, and to reduce the risk that perpetrators will commit future offences that might lead to death or serious injuries of (b) such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate. women and children. That is why we have continued to (5) Subsection (4) does not apply in relation to any revisions of argue that simply providing for a separate MAPPA the strategy if the Secretary of State considers the proposed category covering serial domestic abuse or stalking revisions of the strategy are insubstantial.” offenders, as Amendment 42D seeks to do, would not 42B: In Clause 75, page 59, line 8, after “section” insert strengthen the way in which MAPPA operates or “(Strategy for prosecution and management of offenders),” indeed address the underlying issues. 42C: In Clause 79, page 60, line 32, at end insert— “( ) section (Strategy for prosecution and management of 6 pm offenders);” It is worth disaggregating the amendment a bit to see what practical effect it would have. The argument Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, put forward by the proponents of this amendment is noble Lords know that Amendment 42, tabled by the that the discretionary category 3 of MAPPA—if I noble Baroness, Lady Royall, seeks to amend the could use the term—is not working and what is required Criminal Justice Act 2003 and provide for a new is to ensure that high-harm domestic abuse and stalking category of offender to be managed under Multi perpetrators are automatically brought within the MAPPA Agency Public Protection Arrangements, otherwise framework, but the amendment does not achieve that known as MAPPA. The intention is that such offenders outcome and I will say why. are recorded on ViSOR, the dangerous persons database. As I have said, the proposed new category 4 would The new category would cover perpetrators who had capture two types of offender. First, it would capture either been convicted on two or more occasions of a serial offenders who had at least two convictions for a relevant domestic abuse-related or stalking offence or domestic abuse-related or stalking offence. However, who had been convicted of a single such offence and the list of trigger offences for categories 1 and 2 of had been assessed as presenting a risk of serious MAPPA runs to 153 offences, including ABH, GBH harm. Those features are retained in exactly the same and sexual offences, which are commonly charged in form in Amendment 42D. domestic abuse cases. Serious domestic abuse offenders The noble Baroness’s original amendment would will already come within categories 1 and 2 of MAPPA also place a duty on the Government to issue a report and there is nothing to be gained from a category 4. on these changes 12 months after Royal Assent. The The second cohort of offenders to be included in amendment specifies that the report would need to the proposed new category 4 are those with just one include a comprehensive prevention and perpetrator relevant conviction but who have been assessed as strategy for domestic abusers and stalkers. The noble being high risk. The key word here is “assessed”. This Baroness’s new Amendment 42D modifies this aspect second group of domestic abuse or stalking offenders of her original amendment by incorporating the provisions will need to be assessed as being high risk by the of government Amendment 42A but with the key MAPPA responsible authorities before they are brought difference that Amendment 42D would provide for a within the new category 4. However, this is no different strategy to tackle domestic abuse and stalking perpetrators. to how category 3 operates. I add here that the existing Following the decision by this House to agree MAPPA statutory guidance makes it clear that: Amendment 42, we have once again reviewed the “Offenders demonstrating a pattern of offending behaviour arguments put forward by the noble Baroness and indicating serious harm … that was not reflected in the charge on others in favour of her amendment. I will now outline which the offender was actually convicted”— our thinking and detail the conclusion that we have as is often the case with domestic abuse— reached. “should be considered for category 3 management.” It was impossible not to be moved by the many The amendment simply does not achieve what it personal accounts that were shared during the course purports to achieve. I think the noble Baroness, Lady of debates in Committee and on Report. However, I Royall, knows that if it did, I would be the first to be think there has been some misunderstanding of what fighting for its inclusion. We do not have a principled 1929 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1930

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] to publishing a complementary violence against women objection to amending the current statutory framework and girls strategy,which will, among other things, address if we thought that it will make a material difference by stalking that is not domestic-abuse related. The House better protecting victims of domestic abuse and stalking. of Commons rejected Amendment 42. I regret to say that this is not the case here. As I have In conclusion, we are committed to ensuring that said before, the issue we need to address is not the MAPPA works as intended to better protect all those legislative framework but how it operates on the ground who might be victims of domestic abuse or stalking. to ensure that agencies actively identify those offenders Lords Amendment 42D will not help in that regard; it who pose the highest risk and put plans in place to will no more guarantee the effective management of manage them. If further legislation were the key to high-harm perpetrators than the current MAPPA ensuring that, I would be happy to support the noble framework. I repeat: I would be pressing for it if it did. Baroness’s amendment, but that is not the case here. Amendments to the MAPPAframework in the Criminal I outlined on Report the actions we are taking to Justice Act 2003 are not the answer here, and the ensure that the system works as it should, including Commons agreed with this view by some margin. strengthening the current statutory guidance with What is needed here is the more consistent application dedicated entries relating to domestic abuse perpetrators. of effective operational good practice, supported by I also explained how enhanced provisions for agencies the new multiagency public protection system and the to share information under MAPPA are included in additional resources announced in the spring Budget. the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, which That is what the practitioners on the ground would tell will be with your Lordships’ House in the summer. you, and we should listen to them. The Bill puts beyond doubt the information-sharing I urge the noble Baroness and the whole House not powers of those agencies subject to the duty to co-operate to send back to the Commons an amendment that is under MAPPA. It will also explicitly clarify these substantially the same as one already rejected. Instead, information-sharing powers for those agencies or we should move forward on the basis of the programme individuals who can contribute to the assessment and of work that I have set out, which will be brought management of risk, for example GPs. This will give together in our comprehensive, and now statutory, greater confidence to those agencies when sharing domestic abuse perpetrator strategy,which we will publish information, supporting more effective risk management. later this year. I beg to move. These are all extremely important practical steps and will make a difference to how MAPPA works on an operational level with regards to domestic abuse Motion G1 (as an amendment to Motion G) perpetrators. Moved by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon I will also touch on the reporting in the media that the amendment creates a register for domestic abuse Leave out from “Amendment 42” to end and and serial stalkers, and that it has now been included insert “, do disagree with the Commons in their in the Bill. This is misleading and inaccurate, and it is Amendments 42A, 42B and 42C and do propose also unhelpful to victims of domestic abuse. However, Amendments 42D, 42E and 42F in lieu— again, we are committed to doing more to ensure the 42D: Before Clause 69, insert the following new Clause— effective recording and sharing of information—this “Identification, monitoring and management of serial domestic is absolutely crucial. abuse and stalking perpetrators (1) The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows. Noble Lords will recall that I also said that we will (2) In section 325 (arrangements for assessing etc risk posed improve the MAPPA shared database, also known as by certain offenders)— ViSOR, which is used to manage offenders. I am (a) in subsection (1), after ““relevant sexual or violent offender” delighted to inform the House that the Home Office has the meaning given by section 327;” insert ““relevant domestic and the Ministry of Justice have jointly funded a abuse or stalking perpetrator” has the meaning given in project to introduce the new the multiagency public section 327ZA;”; protection system, or MAPPS, which will have much (b) in subsection (2), after paragraph (a) insert— greater functionality than the existing system. It will “(aa) relevant domestic abuse or stalking perpetrators,”. enable criminal justice agencies to more effectively (3) After section 327 (Section 325: interpretation) insert— share information, improving the risk assessment and “327ZA Section 325: interpretation of relevant domestic abuse management of high-harm offenders and MAPPA or stalking perpetrator nominals, including domestic abuse perpetrators. Once (1) For the purposes of section 325, a person (“P”) is a MAPPS is operational, we will be able to decommission “relevant domestic abuse or stalking perpetrator” if P has been ViSOR. convicted of a specified offence and meets either the condition in subsection (2)(a) or subsection (2)(b). We want to be held to account on our commitment (2) For the purposes of subsection (1), the conditions are— to do more in this area. Therefore, the Government (a) P is a relevant serial offender; or have brought forward Amendments 42A to 42C, to (b) a risk of serious harm assessment has identified P as which the Commons has agreed. Amendment 42A presenting a high or very high risk of serious harm. places a duty on the Secretary of State to publish a (3) An offence is a “specified offence” for the purposes of this domestic abuse perpetrator strategy, and I welcome section if it is a specified domestic abuse offence or a specified the fact that the noble Baroness has incorporated this stalking offence. provision into her new Amendment 42D. In our (4) In this section— Amendment 42A, we purposefully confined the scope “relevant serial offender” means a person convicted on more of the strategy to domestic abuse perpetrators to than one occasion for the same specified offence, or a person reflect the focus of the Bill. Weare separately committed convicted of more than one specified offence; 1931 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1932

“specified domestic abuse offence” means an offence where it impunity. The Minister is right that more good practice is alleged that the behaviour of the accused amounted to domestic is needed, but we have been told that for the last 10 or abuse within the meaning defined in section 1 of the Domestic 12 years and little has changed. I know that there are Abuse Act 2021; many things in train, but women are dying. The answer “specified stalking offence” means an offence contrary to section 2A or section 4A of the Protection from Harassment Act from government has always been, “The current system 1997.” is adequate. We acknowledge that there are problems, (4) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period but it is the practice not the process that is the problem. of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is Wewill issue more guidance and lessons will be learned”. passed— The lesson that has been learned is that guidance is (a) commission a review into the operation of the provisions not enough. Real change will be effected only through in this section; statute. (b) prepare and publish a document setting out a strategy for After 15 March, there was a flurry of press coverage the prosecution and management of domestic abuse and stalking and we were told that domestic abusers, stalkers and offenders. sex offenders will be registered on a super-database (5) A strategy under subsection (4)(b) must include provisions under plans being drawn up by the Government. Some for— of that press coverage came from briefings. Survivors, (a) detecting, investigating and prosecuting offences involving domestic abuse or stalking, the families of victims, charities and hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country were (b) assessing and managing the risks posed by individuals who commit offences involving domestic abuse or stalking, and elated, relieved that women were no longer going to (c) reducing the risk that such individuals commit further live in fear. Their hopes, however, were dashed when offences involving domestic abuse or stalking. the Minister responded in the Commons last week (6) The Secretary of State— and when the Government whipped against my (a) must keep the strategy under review; amendment. Why is the Government so against this (b) may revise it. simple amendment that would make such a profound difference? (7) If the Secretary of State revises the strategy, the Secretary of State must publish a document setting out the revised strategy. I beg to differ with the Minister. Minister Atkins (8) In preparing or revising a strategy under this section, the reiterated that the current system was adequate. All that Secretary of State must consult— was needed was the (a) the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, and “strengthening of MAPPA statutory guidance to include sections (b) such other persons as the Secretary of State considers on domestic abuse.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 522.] appropriate. Ministers say that the real issue was not the statutory (9) Subsection (7) does not apply in relation to any revisions of framework but how it is applied in practice. The the strategy if the Secretary of State considers the proposed statutory framework must be amended, otherwise the revisions of the strategy are insubstantial.” relevant authorities will continue, as they have done 42E: In Clause 75, page 59, line 8, after “section” insert for 20 years, to ignore patterns of behaviour that end “(Identification, monitoring and management of serial domestic in murder. The Minister said that a new category of abuse and stalking perpetrators),” MAPPA, as proposed by my amendment, is 42F: In Clause 79, page 60, line 32, at end insert— “not needed … because these … people can be included in the “( ) section (Identification, monitoring and management of existing category 3.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 534.] serial domestic abuse and stalking perpetrators);”” However, this category has historically been interpreted very narrowly, which means that police, probation and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab) [V]: My Lords, it other agencies are not treating repeat perpetrators as has rightly been said many times that this is an excellent high-risk offenders. Yet they are high risk. Bill of which we can be proud. However,in this National The Minister added: Stalking Awareness Week, we have an opportunity to “Creating a new MAPPA category for high-harm domestic make a further change that would demonstrate that abuse and stalking perpetrators would bring added complexity to the Government really have listened to the outpouring the MAPPAframework without compensating benefits.”—[Official of anger and grief following the murder of Sarah Everard. Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 522.] Since 15 March, when your Lordships last considered This was an affront in the Commons. We are striving the Bill, 16 more women have been murdered—most to save women’s lives and the excuse for inaction is of them as a consequence of domestic abuse, with “added complexity”. The compensatory benefit would many of them undoubtedly having suffered coercive be to include more people in the system who are control and stalking. If the perpetrators had been high-risk and endanger women’s lives. Wewere informed proactively identified, assessed and managed by police, in a meeting yesterday by an official that it would prison and probation services, using the Multi Agency trigger bureaucratic processes; I take that to mean that Public Protection Arrangements and the violent and it would lead to effective action which they do not sex offender register—ViSOR—many of these women wish to take or in which they do not wish invest. Yes, would still be alive. These victims are not just numbers more resources would be required, but women’s lives or even names: they were mothers, sisters and daughters would be saved and the cost would be far outweighed who were loved and whose murder will have torn families by the cost of murder inquiries, each of which costs apart with pain. £2 million. For nearly 20 years, evidence has been provided by It is no wonder that among the people who felt let Laura Richards, charities, HMIC and others that the down and wept with anger when they heard the Minister current system is not working, and that serious and last week were 17-year-old Georgia Gabriel-Hooper, serial stalkers and domestic abusers are treated with whose mum was killed by an ex-partner in front of 1933 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1934

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] Secretary voted against the amendment, which would her; Zoe Dronfield, who was almost murdered by a have done more than anything else to stamp out man who had stalked some 13 other women; John stalking. Clough, father of Jane Clough, who was stalked and We have 20 years of evidence to demonstrate that murdered by a violent ex-partner even though he had the current system is not working. It is too late for a history of abusing other women; and Nick Gazzard, more guidance and more words; it is time to act. I father of Hollie, who was murdered by her stalker, therefore urge the Minister to accept my amendment, who was involved in 24 previous violent offences. so that perpetrators are no longer able to act with None of the perpetrators were on a high-risk offenders’ impunity, so that fewer women and girls live in fear register, and the police were not monitoring them. Zoe and fewer lives are tragically lost at the hands of lives in constant fear, as do many other survivors, serious and serial domestic abusers and stalkers. I look especially when those that attacked them leave prison forward to the Minister’s response, specifically on the and are not on a register. We know of many survivors inclusion of perpetrators of stalking on the register and their families who are literally living in hiding—hiding and new database and on the perpetrator strategy. from men who should be on a database so that they I beg to move. can be managed and police can be accountable for the management of their behaviour. Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]: My Lords, I strongly Why are the Government so against including serial echo all the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady domestic abusers and stalking perpetrators on a database? Royall, but am profoundly upset that Ministers seem I heard what the Minister said, however, and I am to have gone backwards since we last debated this pleased to learn that they recognise that ViSOR is not matter in the Lords on Report. The Minister referred working and that a new system, the multiagency public to the 30 deaths that we reported at that time, but at protection system, will be introduced. The Minister least 16 further women have been murdered since said that this would include perpetrators of domestic Report on 15 March—a mere 36 days ago. This is deeply abuse, but she did not mention stalking. Will the new shocking evidence of the current failures. system include perpetrators of stalking? If not, why As a new Member of your Lordships’ House, I was not? I think we must insist that it does. invited to join the independent parliamentary inquiry into stalking law reform chaired by Elfyn Llwyd MP. 6.15 pm At the start of its report, there is a quotation that is I welcome the Government’s intention to draw up a important in the context of Amendment G1 today.Tracey perpetrator strategy and have included it in my Morgan, a victim and now a supporter of many other amendment,astheMinistersuggested,buttheamendment victims, said to us then, in lieu before us today does not mention stalking. It is “The victims I hear from are saying the same things I was weak. It is not a replacement for the high-risk register, 15 years ago—what’s changed? We need to do more. This is about proper monitoring and interventions underpinned by murder prevention.” statute that are desperately needed. It is simply not Ten years on, nothing has changed. That is 25 years of good enough. The domestic abuse commissioner, who Tracey’s experience and hundreds of murders. One key strongly supports the aim of this amendment, believes perpetrator recommendation from our stalking inquiry that in order for the perpetrator strategy to be effective, remains outstanding, which is having a register of it should be underpinned by a statutory duty placed serial stalking perpetrators. Why are they not mentioned on public sector bodies and agencies to comply with in the Government’s amendment? its aims. Will the Minister agree to such a statutory duty? The Minister insists that Motion G1 is not needed I shall also ask about the funding for such a strategy. because the problem is one of better management to Does the Minister agree with the commissioner that to make the various parts of the multiagency system ensure that public sector bodies and agencies are able work better everywhere. We all know that there are to implement the duties required of them, it is crucial pockets of excellent practice, but the safety of victims that they receive full guaranteed funding for this work and the de-escalation of the behaviour of these dangerous and that such funds must be guaranteed on a longer perpetrators should not be a postcode lottery. It should term, four to five year-basis to ensure continuity of be consistent and should give confidence to victims provision rather than a piecemeal, annual or two-yearly and all those working with them. It should save lives. funding approach. Will the Minister give me that I think we all agree that the current MAPPA commitment on both a statutory duty and the funding? arrangements need to improve. In 2017, HMICFRS The Suzy Lamplugh Trust published a powerful inspected a number of MAPPA cases; this resulted in report, Unmasking Stalking: A Changing Landscape, its report, Living in Fear. The headlines in that report to mark National Stalking Awareness Week. Among are deeply shocking, with 100% failure in 112 cases many other shocking facts, it revealed that 60% of inspected across six police force and CPS areas. Victims stalking victims receive no protection after reporting were left at risk and let down by under-recording and to the police and that nothing is done about the inconsistent services, with patterns missed and incidents stalkers. Stalking is about fixation and obsession. Stalkers being treated as isolated. Victims said that they wanted must be identified, treated and managed. That is what the police to understand the bigger picture and to my amendment seeks to do. receive specialist-led training. There was often no risk Robert Buckland has campaigned on stalking for identification, assessment or management of stalkers. many years and I admire his work. Yesterday, he In Committee, I talked about the need for a golden tweeted that this Government are committed to stamping thread to run through all interactions with victims and out stalking. One can only wonder why the Justice perpetrators. This is particularly vital for perpetrators 1935 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1936 because we know that their behaviour escalates and the opening speech, which I thought contained some becomes more obsessive and violent as time goes on. very positive elements. Because of that, I will rein in Only by getting them into the MAPPA process can we the rant that I was going to deliver and make it a achieve that and ensure that this golden thread provides rather smaller rant than I would have delivered otherwise. an oversight of behaviour. Why am I and others on our feet again? Some of Last week, Channel 4’s excellent documentary what the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and Lady “24 Hours in Police Custody” had an episode called Brinton, have said very comprehensively has already “Death Us Do Part”. It focused on the 2019 Bedfordshire covered that, but I was going to wave three exhibits. Police investigation into a severe attack by a female The first was the report that Robert Buckland, our perpetrator on her male partner. She gave him two Justice Minister, undertook about stalking and the bleeds on his brain and a fractured eye socket. We saw recommendations that he made. The second, exhibit the frustration that the excellent police domestic violence B, would be one of a certain Alex Chalk, Parliamentary team faced. The attack on Paul Jenner came just two Under-Secretary at the Ministry of Justice, who, in his days after his partner’s early release from prison after own stalking review, which he did with a fellow a previous serious attack on him. It was evident that Gloucestershire MP, strangely used exactly the same there was no contact with HM Prison and Probation wording as Robert Buckland’s report, basically saying Service. The custody sergeant even commented that “Consideration should be given to the production of a register they knew her well and that it is as if a switch gets of serial perpetrators”. turned on and she cannot stop herself attacking him. The investigating officer was struck that after she was Last but not least, exhibit C is from our Home Secretary arrested, she was already texting her partner, who herself, Priti Patel, who in 2013 edited a report called became frightened and unwilling to co-operate. The Rebalancing the Scales for victims. One of the officer and her team finally persuaded him that they contributions, which she was responsible for editing, could help him, but their efforts were constantly said very clearly that a database should be established undermined by the coercive control that the perpetrator comprehensively to cover all perpetrators and stalkers. had over him. Sadly, he died a few days later. Given On Thursday in another place, the Government the number of attacks she had made on him over effectively admitted that the current system is not many years and the increasing severity of those attacks, working as it should, that the current database is out she was well known to everyone in the system. That is of date and is not working as it should, and the why serious and serial domestic violence perpetrators Minister in the Commons, in a much more pared-down need to be on the register and why there needs to be a way, indicated some of what the Minister said earlier duty for all the multiagency partners to work together. this evening. But what we are really talking about, and If that had happened, this “never event”—a predictable this goes back certainly as far as 2004, is a fundamental event that should never have been able to happen but failure of management and leadership. did—could have prevented because that golden thread I do not have a background in government or would have prepared and supported Paul Jenner and public service; I have a background in business, and his partner on her release from prison. where I come from, over all those years, the sort of Stalking Awareness Week started on Monday.Robert failure of management and leadership that has been Buckland QC—incidentally, he was a member of the consistent through changes in government, changes in stalking law reform inquiry with me a decade ago—made Minister, changes in special adviser, would be regarded a moving video as Secretary of State for Justice, and I as a sacking offence, and certainly as a career-limiting agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that he offence. Given the awful, relentless toll of women has been a champion for getting on top of stalking. dying, week in and week out, I think that, in the world He said of stalking: “We need to call it out. We need to I come from, it would also be regarded potentially as stamp it out. We need to do all we can to deal with the corporate manslaughter. Noble Lords know what the menace of stalking in our society.” I agree. However, penalties are for corporate manslaughter: they are that will never happen until a duty for multiagency considerable. But because this is a Government, and response is enshrined in legislation, with a database because we are dealing with statutory agencies, that is and register to provide that golden thread to identify not an option—but it really is not far off, and it is and stop stalking and domestic abuse perpetrators and shameful. And the death toll relentlessly keeps going save lives. I beg the Government to reconsider. up, and will keep going up, whatever fine words we say. As I said, the Minister has been very helpful. I was Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, I am not going to say that, until the point she spoke, I was much a fan of acronyms at the best of times, but I feel that clearer about what the Government did not want to do this evening does call for one, and it is DVAOA—which, than about what they do want to do, and I am very as everybody will know, stands for “déjà vu all over grateful that she has given some clear indications again”. So here we are again. about the direction they want to go in. We have had, as Last Thursday,in another place,there was a lamentable I am sure the Minister has, some fairly intensive performance by the Government, I must say. For those conversations with the domestic abuse commissioner’s who have not watched it, I suggest you take a stiff gin office about how she sees things, going forward. She and tonic and then sit back and enjoy it. Particularly if too knows and admits that the current system is not you are of the Government’s persuasion, it is not very working, but, naturally, given her role and the nature nice to watch. To her credit, the noble Baroness the of her relationship with government, she wants to be Minister, as one might have expected, has performed positive and to try to make it work. I am very keen to immeasurably better, and I am very grateful to her for be positive, too, and to try to make this work. 1937 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1938

6.30 pm manner. In fact, she seems to have been surgically So what I am looking for is a tangible demonstration attached to the Dispatch Box for months. I will always that there is a commitment to provide a level of be grateful to my noble friend for her help and advice leadership, energy and joined-up administration, and on the specific areas that are of concern to me in another commitment to putting in statute an absolute relation to children and the importance of the provision responsibility to deliver whatever the strategy produces. for community-based services. Let me also pay tribute The strategy has to have teeth; guidance is not enough. to Claire Stewart of Barnardo’s for her help and Voluntary initiatives are not enough. professionalism. The history of voluntary initiatives—there are some As we have been told, we are in the middle of very good ones in this area, which are producing good National Stalking Awareness Week and I was pleased results—is that they are voluntary. They rely usually to see the video message from the right honourable on a single, charismatic leader who galvanises the Robert Buckland, the Lord Chancellor, which has been organisation to get behind something. It starts working, mentioned. He said in that video: and everybody is very excited. What then tends to “Our job is to raise awareness of this wicked crime, to increase happen is that that charismatic leader moves on and support for victims” another leader comes in. They may be equally charismatic and address the perpetrators. As the noble Baroness, but may well have a different set of priorities, so what Lady Brinton, said, he ended by saying: was previously driven by the charismatic leader drops “We need to call it out. We need to stamp it out. We need to do further down the list. It becomes less of a priority and all we can to deal with the menace of stalking in our society.” the results start tailing off. The only way you can The Lord Chancellor is right and the noble Baroness, defeat that is to have a systematic, joined-up statutory Lady Royall, the noble Lord, Lord Russell, and the duty to deliver, knowing that you will be held to noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, make strong arguments account if you do not. That is what the strategy needs that I will not repeat. to contain. I have had discussions with my noble friend Lady I heard what the Minister said about stalking: that Newlove, who is unable to be in the Chamber. She it will be included in the strategy on violence against asked me to convey the following message: “Sadly, the women and girls. She has heard me say previously that Government voted for Amendment 42 to be quashed my natural reaction over many years whenever I hear out of the Bill. I am ashamed. Why? Because, despite the word “strategy” is to reach for my tin hat, and I many conversations through the usual channels, MAPPA confess that I still have that inclination. We may end category 3 will still have so many gaps it resembles a up with too many strategies and I do appeal to the string vest. The response from the Government of Government to make sure that it is all joined up, in the proposing more guidance is not worth the paper it is interests of the victims, the women and the men, we written on. Treating those families whose loved ones are talking about. have been needlessly taken with lack of respect and As I think I have said previously, when the Minister dignity—the Government is proposing more guidance— gets up to respond, will she remember that it is not has not worked over the years. What is it going to take only we who are listening but the families of the in order for Government to stop this pattern of behaviour victims? In particular, there are a large number of in order to protect innocent lives taken by the hands of people who, perhaps wrongly, had their hopes and offenders of coercive controlling and stalking? expectations inflated as they rejoiced at what they Government rhetoric serves only to shamefully value thought was going to be the creation of this all-singing, human life after the horse has bolted and to protect all-dancing national database. It now turns out that those accountable by these two insensitive words ‘lessons that is not quite the case, but it behoves us all to be learned’, instead of saying ‘enough is enough’.” aware that an awful lot of people are listening very We can all understand my noble friend’s frustration. carefully to what we are saying, and will listen very While it is clear that Nicole Jacobs supports the principle carefully to what the Minister has to say, and I hope of this amendment, she also understands that ViSOR and pray that what she says will give them some sense and MAPPAare overloaded systems.I seek the Minister’s of peace and optimism for the future. help. We are all on the same side and we all know where we want to reach. As the Lord Chancellor said The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con): I about stalking, we all want to call it out and we all have received requests to speak from the noble Lord, want to stamp it out. Lord Polak, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson I noted the welcome announcement in the Minister’s of Welton. I call first the noble Lord, Lord Polak. speech about the upgrading of ViSOR and MAPPA. On the one hand we are told that putting stalkers on to Lord Polak (Con): My Lords, I am pleased to follow a register is problematic but, on the other, we are told the noble Lord, Lord Russell, who I have had the that putting them on to a register can save lives. Can pleasure of working with on different areas of the Bill. the Minister persuade me why I should not vote for He is very wise. this amendment? Let me congratulate the Government on reaching this important moment, as the Bill will soon finally Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con): My Lords, become law. I pay tribute to so many people who have I understand the strength of feeling on this issue. I made this happen, in particular my noble friend Lady completely agree on the need to do more to stop serial Williams, who as the Minister has dealt with such offenders. Too often in the worst cases we discover sensitive and important issues in a sensitive and caring that the perpetrator has had a long and shocking 1939 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1940 history of previous abuse. I am not clear about how a now is worse than ever. From a pre-pandemic level of register or, effectively, a new category under MAPPA about two women being murdered per week, that number would improve the situation. has more than doubled—with 16 since the Report stage Members in this House and in the other place have of this Bill. You can be sure that all the gradations of said that new guidance is not enough to deal with the fear, pain and misery proportionately cascaded all the problem. I can understand why there might be some way down the line. Why will the Government not be scepticism on that front. The truth is that this comes brave enough to do something different with the changes down to better guidance, proper training and more contained in these amendments? effective information sharing about the worst offenders. We know that the danger comes with an escalation Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have heard from minor offences to major ones. Stalkers can be distressing details of what some of those offenders helped, but, without a co-ordinated effort to identify have done. But the fact remains that the vast majority them at an early stage, the real danger they pose may were already covered by current MAPPA categories. come too late. The Government’s alternative is not Merely shifting their names into a new category or on strong enough, although I acknowledge they are trying to a new register will not change matters. If anything, hard to do something with their own amendment and it could make the situation even more difficult, for this that is greatly appreciated. is not straightforward. Working through the finer We have heard many harrowing testimonies over details of this so-called super-database as to exactly the course of these amendments. No one in your who will be on it and for how long they will remain Lordships’ House wants to have to hear the sickening there will take time, which we have all agreed we do details of another one—no “DVAOA”, as the noble not have. How do we avoid ending up with something Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, said—no “déjà vu so unwieldy that it inhibits the process of tracking and all over again”. While I welcome the government managing these people? amendments, including MAPPS as opposed to MAPPA, While I understand why a new category or database my party and I are fully behind the amendment put by might seem appealing, I genuinely believe that in practice the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. We will support her it will not deliver what we want. Surely it is better to if she sees fit to push it to a vote. focus our energies on improving the system that we have. We all agree that it is not working as it should, but the Government are investing in improvements to Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, the ViSOR database that will enable better risk assessment the Government have accepted that a perpetrator strategy and information sharing. I really believe that this, should be in the Bill and have brought forward their together with the new guidance and frameworks which own amendment. As far as it goes, it is pleasing to see have already been promised, will be more effective in that and I am happy to welcome it—but their amendment dealing with the very real problem before us. completely ignores the key provisions of my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon’s amendment: that Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, we have there must be concrete plans for the management and had some immensely knowledgeable, cogent and monitoring of serial domestic abuse perpetrators and passionate contributions tonight, particularly from stalkers. I am pleased that my noble friend has tabled the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and my noble friend Motion G1, and these Benches will support her if she Lady Brinton. decides to divide the House. Several noble Lords have referred to National Stalking My noble friend’s amendment is clear, simple and Awareness Week and, like others, I was greatly heartened effective. It would add serial abusers and perpetrators to hear the Secretary of State, Robert Buckland, say to the existing MAPPA system. My noble friend has that he would do what he could to address this issue. made a compelling case today and on previous occasions. He has campaigned for years on stalking so, as the I agree that this amendment would provide further noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said: why vote against protection to victims living in fear and having to hide the amendment considering what would be achieved away. It is outrageous that people have to hide away by it? from abusive partners or ex-partners, at risk of attack, and we must do everything we possibly can to ensure There is a well-known saying—I am not the only that these perpetrators are effectively managed and one who can trot out the old things—which is, “Do controlled. That is what we need to do today. what you’ve always done, and you’ll get what you’ve always got.” In 2012, the stalking law inquiry report recommended exactly what this amendment, retabled 6.45 pm by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, would do. Since The government response, though, is generally weak 2012, the Government have insisted time after time and does not deliver the certainty we need. All through that the implementation of the rules is the issue, not these debates over the months the Bill has been in this making recording mandatory. Victoria Atkins said House, we have heard the most harrowing, distressing, last week: tragic stories. I am sure we have all been moved by “The real issue … is not the statutory framework but how it is what we have heard. What has been going on is applied”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 522.] horrific. My noble friend Lady Royall and others, In this case, doing “what you’ve always done” has Members of both Houses from all parties, have been not even got us to where we used to get, as the calling for change for over a decade, but not much has harrowing figures given to us have demonstrated. Clearly, actually happened. Serial abusers are slipping through from the testimonies of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, the net and being allowed to reoffend repeatedly. The my noble friend Lady Brinton and others, what we have harm of domestic abuse only escalates in its severity 1941 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1942

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] My noble friend asked, quite logically, why putting and frequency—we all know that is the case—so we offenders on a register was problematic. It is not need effective, early intervention to prevent women problematic. So many noble Lords made the point being seriously hurt or even killed by their abusive about improving things in practice. The noble Lord, partner or ex-partner. Lord Russell of Liverpool, would ask, I am sure— Since we last debated these matters, as my noble although I do not want to think for him—what we will friend Lady Royall told the House, 16 women have do now to make things any different from how they been killed—16 lives lost and families destroyed in the were before, and that is a totally reasonable question, last few months. It is horrific. It is shocking to even particularly in National Stalking Awareness Week. think of that figure over the last few months. Violence The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is right to say that against women—it is usually women, but not exclusively some of the stories we have heard have been absolutely —is an epidemic. The Home Secretary is failing to horrific. Noble Lords may recall that I wrote to the take the action required to make a real difference, and noble Baroness, Lady Royall, pointing out that these that is most disappointing. stories were horrendous. Would they have fared any The noble Lord, Lord Russell, helpfully set out the differently with this additional category? I contended support for a register—the support for action—that that they would not, but said that I felt we could all we have from the Home Secretary. The report she agree that the current arrangements had to be improved. wrote and the work she is doing are excellent. There is I will address what I think the noble Lord, Lord support from Robert Buckland, the Justice Secretary. Russell, would ask, which is, “What are we going to do I like Robert Buckland very much; I have known him that will make a difference?” The answer is: several for many years. He is a really nice guy and we get on things. We will revisit and refresh the statutory guidance very well. I always enjoy my chats with him in the to include sections on domestic abuse. It will ensure House. There is also support from Alex Chalk—again, that all agencies involved take steps to identify domestic a very nice guy. abuse perpetrators whose risk requires active multiagency They are doing their work on Twitter, are they not, management, and to put in place a plan of action these little Twitter warriors? What is really good for which reflects the risk, no matter what the category. these Twitter warriors is that they are in power. Unlike We are legislating in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and the rest of us—we can only ask to get things done, Courts Bill to clarify the information-sharing powers campaign for them or say they should happen—they under MAPPA. are actually in power and can do something about it. Noble Lords who know me know that I am very What a place to be. There is an issue you are really supportive of multiagency information sharing, and passionate about; you want it changed and—lo and that Bill puts beyond doubt that the information-sharing behold—you are in office and can do something about powers of those agencies are subject to the duty to it. I am really hopeful that those I mentioned can take co-operate under MAPPA. That is absolutely crucial. the campaigns they have had on Twitter, on social It will also explicitly clarify these information-sharing media and elsewhere, and do something about it. All powers for those agencies or individuals who can the rest of us can do is campaign and make the points. contribute to the assessment and management of risk: I am quite good at making points repeatedly—I can for example, GPs. It will give greater confidence to keep on doing that—but that is all I can do. I cannot these agencies when sharing information and will support do more at the moment—well, I am standing up here. more effective risk management. So, to answer the I hope we will see action taken, because, otherwise, it noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in terms of the statutory is just cynical use of social media. I am sure none of duty to co-operate with the aims of the DA strategy, the people I mentioned would do that, but of course I the Bill makes provision for statutory guidance that have seen other members of the Government campaign bodies exercising public functions must have regard to for stuff on Twitter and social media and then not offenders convicted of a stalking offence who are actually do it in practice, which is worrying. managed under level 2 or level 3 of MAPPA having to I hope the Government will take advantage and be on ViSOR. The guidance is not voluntary. That is a actually deliver on this. That is why the House should very important practical step. support my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon’s HM Prison and Probation Service will issue a policy amendment today—to give all those campaigners in framework setting out clear expectations for the the Government who want these things to happen the management of all cases at MAPPA level 1 by the chance to vote for it again. Clearly, they must have National Probation Service, including domestic abuse been confused and did not realise what they were perpetrators. This will further help improve the quality doing, because they voted against what they wanted in of information sharing, the consistency and regularity the first place. I hope we all support my noble friend of reviews and the identification of cases where additional today, because we are failing to stop, monitor and risk-management activity is required. prosecute dangerous offenders. My noble friend is We will decommission ViSOR, which is now almost asking the other place to think again. I hope we will 20 years old, and bring in the new MAPP system, take the opportunity to support her. which will be piloted from next year. As I have said, we will also bring forward a new statutory domestic abuse Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, perpetrator strategy as part of a holistic domestic rather than going over the arguments about why we do abuse strategy, to be published later this year. In terms not agree with the amendment, perhaps I might stress of resources, I totally concur with the noble Baroness. that we all seek the same ends. Like the noble Lord, We are investing in new resources, with an additional Lord Kennedy, I am at risk of repeating myself. £25 million committed this year, but she is absolutely 1943 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Domestic Abuse Bill 1944 right that we need ongoing certainty in funding, and I Contents 291; Not-Contents 228. give a personal guarantee to her that both Victoria Atkins and I will be lobbying the Chancellor as we Motion G1 agreed. head towards the next SR period—because she is right; we absolutely need sustainable funding. Division No. 4 Wedo want to be held to account on our commitment to do more. I started trying to deal with the perennial CONTENTS problem of getting huge improvements in our response Aberdare, L. Crisp, L. to domestic abuse when I was at MHCLG, and I Adams of Craigielea, B. Cunningham of Felling, L. continue to do so through this Bill. We brought forward Adebowale, L. Dannatt, L. Amendments 42A to 42C, which the Commons have Adonis, L. Davies of Brixton, L. agreed, and I welcome the fact that the noble Baroness Allan of Hallam, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Allen of Kensington, L. Davies of Stamford, L. has incorporated Amendment 42D into her amendment. Alli, L. Desai, L. I hope that I have outlined the tangible action that we Alton of Liverpool, L. Dholakia, L. are taking and that the House will support our Motion Amos, B. Dodds of Duncairn, L. and reject the noble Baroness’s. However, in rejecting Anderson of Ipswich, L. Donaghy, B. it we are not, ultimately, on a different page in what we Anderson of Swansea, L. Donoughue, L. are seeking to achieve. Andrews, B. Doocey, B. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Drake, B. Bakewell of Hardington D’Souza, B. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I Mandeville, B. Dubs, L. am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken Bakewell, B. Eatwell, L. in support of my amendment. I am also extremely Barker, B. Elder, L. grateful to the Minister, who has outlined many tangible Bassam of Brighton, L. Etherton, L. Beith, L. Evans of Watford, L. actions. We all agree that the current system is not Benjamin, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L. working, and many of the actions which she outlined Bennett of Manor Castle, B. Featherstone, B. are indeed going to improve things. I am delighted by Berkeley, L. Foster of Bath, L. her announcement that ViSOR does not work and is Bichard, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. therefore going to be replaced; that is great. As she Billingham, B. Fox, L. mentioned earlier, the perpetrators of domestic abuse Blackstone, B. Freyberg, L. Blake of Leeds, B. Gale, B. are going to be part of the new data system, but I do Blunkett, L. German, L. not think that she said that the perpetrators of stalking Boateng, L. Giddens, L. are going to be included on that register. I feel extremely Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Glasgow, E. passionate about that because stalking and domestic B. Goddard of Stockport, L. abuse are inextricably linked. There is a pattern of Bowles of Berkhamsted, B. Golding, B. Bowness, L. Goldsmith, L. behaviour: one thing leads to another and, ultimately, Boycott, B. Goudie, B. women are murdered. I therefore think it extremely Bradley, L. Grantchester, L. important that the perpetrators of domestic abuse and Bradshaw, L. Green of Deddington, L. of stalking be dealt with in the same way. Bragg, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. The noble Baroness mentioned many things about Brennan, L. Greenway, L. Brinton, B. Grender, B. the perpetrator strategy, and I will have to look carefully Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Grey-Thompson, B. at what she said. As I understand it, there are going to Brown of Eaton-under- Grocott, L. be two distinct strategies, one for stalkers and the one Heywood, L. Hain, L. covered by Amendment 42. There, again, I do not Browne of Belmont, L. Hamwee, B. understand why there would be two strategies when Browne of Ladyton, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Bruce of Bennachie, L. Hanworth, V. the perpetrators of both offences need to be dealt with Bryan of Partick, B. Harries of Pentregarth, L. in the same way. If I am wrong, and there are not Bull, B. Harris of Haringey, L. going to be two strategies, please tell me. But as it is, I Burt of Solihull, B. Harris of Richmond, B. find the solution to some of these problems quite Butler-Sloss, B. Haskel, L. confusing and frustrating. Campbell of Pittenweem, L. Haworth, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Hay of Ballyore, L. I think—I know—we are all willing the same end. I Carlile of Berriew, L. Hayman of Ullock, B. do not yet agree with the means by which we are Carter of Coles, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. getting to that end, but I am confident we can agree in Cashman, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. due course. There are more conversations to be had, Chakrabarti, B. Hendy, L. and I would like more conversations following this Chandos, V. Henig, B. Chapman of Darlington, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. evening and before we get to the next stage of this Bill, Chidgey, L. Hollick, L. which I very much want to reach the statute book, and Clancarty, E. Howarth of Newport, L. of course it will. Because I still have questions and there Clark of Windermere, L. Hoyle, L. are things I wish to insist on, I am going to test the Clement-Jones, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. opinion of the House. But with that, I thank the Minister Coaker, L. Humphreys, B. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Hunt of Bethnal Green, B. very much. I look forward to our conversations, and I Collins of Highbury, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. am sure we will find a way through in the coming days. Cooper of Windrush, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Corston, B. Hutton of Furness, L. 7.01 pm Cotter, L. Janke, B. Coussins, B. Janvrin, L. Craigavon, V. Jolly, B. Division conducted remotely on Motion G1 Crawley, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. 1945 Domestic Abuse Bill [LORDS] Domestic Abuse Bill 1946

Jones of Moulsecoomb, B. Primarolo, B. Wilcox of Newport, B. Woodley, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Purvis of Tweed, L. Wills, L. Woolley of Woodford, L. Jones, L. Puttnam, L. Winston, L. Jordan, L. Quin, B. Wood of Anfield, L. Young of Old Scone, B. Judge, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Kennedy of Cradley, B. Randerson, B. NOT CONTENTS Kennedy of Southwark, L. Ravensdale, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Razzall, L. Agnew of Oulton, L. Fink, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Rebuck, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Finkelstein, L. Kerslake, L. Redesdale, L. Altmann, B. Finn, B. Kestenbaum, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. Fleet, B. Khan of Burnley, L. Rennard, L. Arbuthnot of Edrom, L. Fookes, B. Kidron, B. Ricketts, L. Arran, E. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Kilclooney, L. Ritchie of Downpatrick, B. Ashton of Hyde, L. Foster of Oxton, B. Kingsmill, B. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Astor of Hever, L. Framlingham, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Astor, V. Fraser of Craigmaddie, B. Balfe, L. Freud, L. Kramer, B. Rooker, L. Barran, B. Frost, L. Laming, L. Rosser, L. Bates, L. Fullbrook, B. Lawrence of Clarendon, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Bellingham, L. Gadhia, L. Layard, L. Rowlands, L. Benyon, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Berridge, B. Gardner of Parkes, B. Levy, L. Russell of Liverpool, L. Bethell, L. Garnier, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Sawyer, L. Blackwood of North Oxford, Geddes, L. Liddle, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. B. Glenarthur, L. Lincoln, Bp. Scriven, L. Blencathra, L. Godson, L. Lipsey, L. Sheehan, B. Bloomfield of Hinton Gold, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Sherlock, B. Waldrist, B. Goldsmith of Richmond Lisvane, L. Shipley, L. Borwick, L. Park, L. London, Bp. Sikka, L. Botham, L. Goodlad, L. Ludford, B. Simon, V. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Singh of Wimbledon, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Smith of Basildon, B. Brady, B. Grimstone of Boscobel, L. L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Bridgeman, V. Hailsham, V. Mallalieu, B. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Bridges of Headley, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Hammond of Runnymede, L. Mandelson, L. Smith of Newnham, B. Browning, B. Harris of Peckham, L. Mann, L. Soley, L. Brownlow of Shurlock Row, Haselhurst, L. Manningham-Buller, B. Somerset, D. L. Hayward, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Stephen, L. Buscombe, B. Henley, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Stern of Brentford, L. Caine, L. Herbert of South Downs, L. Mawson, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Caithness, E. Hill of Oareford, L. Maxton, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Callanan, L. Hodgson of Abinger, B. McAvoy, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Carey of Clifton, L. Hoey, B. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Storey, L. Carrington of Fulham, L. Hogg, B. L. Strasburger, L. Carrington, L. Holmes of Richmond, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Stuart of Edgbaston, B. Cathcart, E. Hooper, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Stunell, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Horam, L. McNally, L. Suttie, B. Chartres, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Meacher, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Chisholm of Owlpen, B. Howard of Rising, L. Merron, B. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Choudrey, L. Howe, E. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Teverson, L. Clarke of Nottingham, L. Howell of Guildford, L. B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Coe, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Mitchell, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Colgrain, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Monks, L. Thornhill, B. Colville of Culross, V. Johnson of Marylebone, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Thornton, B. Colwyn, L. Jopling, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Thurso, V. Courtown, E. Kamall, L. Morrow, L. Tope, L. Couttie, B. Keen of Elie, L. Murphy of Torfaen, L. Touhig, L. Crathorne, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Neuberger, B. Triesman, L. Cruddas, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. Newby, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Cumberlege, B. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Newlove, B. Turnberg, L. Davies of Gower, L. Lancaster of Kimbolton, L. Northover, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. De Mauley, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Nye, B. Tyler, L. Deighton, L. Lansley, L. Oates, L. Uddin, B. Duncan of Springbank, L. Leigh of Hurley, L. Osamor, B. Vaux of Harrowden, L. Dundee, E. Lexden, L. Paddick, L. Walker of Aldringham, L. Dunlop, L. Lilley, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Eaton, B. Lindsay, E. Pannick, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Lingfield, L. Parekh, L. Walmsley, B. Eccles, V. Liverpool, E. Parminter, B. Walney, L. Empey, L. Lupton, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Erroll, E. Lytton, E. Patel, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Evans of Bowes Park, B. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Pinnock, B. Watts, L. Fairfax of Cameron, L. Marlesford, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. West of Spithead, L. Fairhead, B. McDonald of Salford, L. Powell of Bayswater, L. Wheeler, B. Fall, B. McGregor-Smith, B. Prashar, B. Whitaker, B. Farmer, L. McInnes of Kilwinning, L. Prescott, L. Whitty, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. McLoughlin, L. 1947 Domestic Abuse Bill [21 APRIL 2021] Overseas Operations Bill 1948

Mendoza, L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Sugg, B. Verma, B. Meyer, B. Ribeiro, L. Suri, L. Vinson, L. Mobarik, B. Ridley, V. Swinfen, L. Wakeham, L. Mone, B. Risby, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Warsi, B. Montrose, D. Robathan, L. Taylor of Warwick, L. Wasserman, L. Morgan of Cotes, B. Rock, B. Tebbit, L. Watkins of Tavistock, B. Morris of Bolton, B. Rogan, L. Trefgarne, L. Wei, L. Morrissey, B. Rose of Monewden, L. Trenchard, V. Wharton of Yarm, L. Moylan, L. Rotherwick, L. Trimble, L. Whitby, L. Nash, L. Saatchi, L. True, L. Williams of Trafford, B. Neville-Jones, B. Sanderson of Welton, B. Tugendhat, L. Wolfson of Tredegar, L. Neville-Rolfe, B. Sarfraz, L. Udny-Lister, L. Wyld, B. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Sassoon, L. Ullswater, V. Young of Cookham, L. B. Sater, B. Vaizey of Didcot, L. Young of Graffham, L. Noakes, B. Scott of Bybrook, B. Vere of Norbiton, B. Younger of Leckie, V. Northbrook, L. Seccombe, B. Norton of Louth, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. O’Shaughnessy, L. Sheikh, L. Overseas Operations (Service Personnel Parkinson of Whitley Bay, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. and Veterans) Bill Patten, L. Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. Penn, B. Shields, B. Returned from the Commons Pickles, L. Shrewsbury, E. Pidding, B. Smith of Hindhead, L. 7.14 pm Popat, L. Spencer of Alresford, L. Porter of Spalding, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Price, L. Sterling of Plaistow, L. The Bill was returned from the Commons with reasons Rana, L. Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, and amendments. It was ordered that the Commons Randall of Uxbridge, L. L. reasons and amendments be printed. (HL Bill 192). Ranger, L. Stewart of Dirleton, L. Reay, L. Strathclyde, L. House adjourned at 7.14 pm. Redfern, B. Stroud, B.

GC 311 Arrangement of Business [21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 312

Grand Committee review of the costs of decarbonisation and the strategy for heat in homes and buildings, and whatever happened Wednesday 21 April 2021 to the task force net zero? Perhaps the Minister can tell us. Did the Cabinet committee on climate change that The Grand Committee met in a hybrid proceeding. the Prime Minister announced at the beginning of his premiership ever get past its first meeting? 2.30 pm Despite our strong past performance on carbon reductions in the UK—we are all proud of that—we were on track to miss our fourth and fifth carbon budgets Arrangement of Business even when our 2050 target was still only an 80% emission Announcement reduction. We have become complacent. No wonder the reception of these new targets was muted. It is easy 2.30 pm to set targets into the future—in this case 2035, 14 years away—making it happen now is the test of our sincerity. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand Toquote Alok Sharma, COP 26 president and Cabinet Committee will now begin. Some Members are here in member, on the announcement of the sixth carbon person, others are participating remotely,but all Members budget decision: will be treated equally. I ask Members in the Room to “Long term targets must be backed up with credible delivery respect social distancing. If the capacity of the Committee plans”— Room is exceeded, or other safety requirements are how much I agree with Mr Sharma. Chris Stark, chief breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. executive of the Climate Change Committee, stated: If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will “This target means every choice we make from now must be adjourn for five minutes. The time limit for this debate the right one for our climate.” is five hours. That means the choices made by the Treasury, the Cabinet Office, the Department of Health and Social Care, the Foreign Office and all the rest, not just BEIS Net-Zero Carbon Emissions and Defra. Motion to Take Note How successful are we at Whitehall co-ordination? Back in ancient history, under Gordon Brown as 2.31 pm Chancellor, the Treasury produced the Stern report Moved by Lord Teverson and acted on it. The result was the Climate Change Act. But this year’s Budget was judged “climate-lite”. That the Grand Committee takes note of the case There were some good announcements, including green for the integration of policy-making in (1) national, bonds—though late and long resisted by the Treasury— and (2) local, government to achieve net zero carbon and the UK Infrastructure Bank, but no mechanism emissions in the United Kingdom. to ensure net zero- compliant investments and no big push of retrofit; in fact, there was a retreat on this. The Lord Teverson (LD) [V]: My Lords, I declare my Government backed away from green taxation, despite interests as a director of Aldustria Ltd, a trustee of having previously trailed it in the press. the Green Purposes Company that holds the green Let us be clear: if we are to win the climate change share in the Green Investment Bank, and an honorary challenge, two departments have to be at the centre of president of the Major Energy Users’ Council. it, and they are not BEIS and Defra but the Treasury Beyond the pandemic, two emergencies confront and the Cabinet Office. There has to be a senior us: climate change and biodiversity loss. Both are real Minister in the Treasury whose sole focus is the climate and, like Covid, both can be fatal to our economy and change agenda. In the Cabinet Office there should be society. Members and Ministers in this House are all created a Minister for the climate emergency, who is a good at fine words when it comes to these crises, and I full member of Cabinet. That is the practical demand am sure there will be many admirable ones in this of the Government’s rhetoric and our desire to succeed. debate, but what counts is action. This debate should There is one other department that I want to put in focus on how we deliver our climate goals most effectively the spotlight when it comes to silos, yet it also is at the and certainly. To do that, almost before anything else, heart of climate change policy. That is the Ministry of we have to closely co-ordinate work between government Housing, Communities and Local Government. It departments and between Whitehall and our devolved scrapped the 2016 zero-carbon homes deadline and nations, combined authorities and local authorities. did the same for the 2019 commercial buildings target. With climate change, there is no room for silos in It rules the roost on building regulations, but I get no decision-making or inaction—if there is, we lose. impression from it of a desperation to urgently uprate Iwillconcentrateontheword“action”.TheGovernment standards, let alone inspection rates. The Conservative have just accepted the Climate Change Committee’s manifesto pledged over £9 billion for retrofitting buildings, recommendedsixthcarbonbudget—Ithinkthatlegislation which I welcomed, but, a quarter of the way into this is being laid before Parliament today. I welcome that, term of office, very little has been committed. I shall as I am sure we all do. I also welcomed the Prime come on to the green homes grant later. Minister’s 10-point plan, but without a route map—I Then we had the Cumbria coal mine. It somehow have not seen one yet—it is a 10-pointless plan. We are did not seem to occur to the department or the Secretary still waiting for a net zero road map, the Treasury’s of State that a brand spanking new coal mine being GC 313 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 314

[LORD TEVERSON] the delivery of climate change goals. As part of that, approved in the year of our COP 26 presidency, when there must also be a grown-up fiscal settlement between the UK was internationally the co-founder of the the two—difficult, I know, but it has to be done. Powering Past Coal Alliance, might just be seen as a As part of my preparations for this debate, I decided little off-message by the rest of the world. It is amazing— to speak to a number of local government officers on and amazing too, apparently, to COP president Alok the ground in the climate change area to understand Sharma. their experience of working with Whitehall. I will give Whitehall silos are a challenge to all Governments—I five short quotes, which all relate specifically to climate understand that—but when it comes to climate change, change. Here we go—in their words rather than mine. we just cannot afford that luxury, or that inefficiency. First, when it comes to climate change, government is As part of removing the climate silo, investment appraisal divided on the issues at departmental level, and there in all departments must be subject to a “route to net is no core ethos that drives conversations down a clear zero” test. That financial rigour is really important in pathway. Secondly, we still get pushed towards a more all departmental investment. traditional economic justification for projects and I turn to local authorities. The great news is that initiatives by many departments, and the climate change more than 300 local authorities have declared a climate agenda is too big for that. Thirdly, we have to deal change emergency. That is brilliant. They are of all with a multitude of funding streams that are complex, political persuasions, and for most it is not just a short-term and never allow for strategic-level planning declaration but a genuine call to action. Two-thirds and, equally importantly, do not allow for supply chain intend to be carbon neutral by 2030. One reason that development, market confidence and skills development this is good news is that some 50% of the carbon —a reflection of those short-term government policies reductions we will need in the future are strongly that change so quickly, so that once you have built up influenced by local policy-making. But when it comes the skills and the organisation, the programme ends to achieving net zero as a nation, central and local and everything stops. Fourthly, there needs to be much government are like two ships passing in the night. greater co-ordination between the climate and ecological The next stage of decarbonisation will be far more emergency agendas within government, as talking to difficult than what we have experienced so far. Unlike Defra and BEIS is like speaking to completely different when coal was removed from power generation, our organisations. Lastly, we need some form of concordat fellow citizens will notice the differences in the way where there is an honest discussion of what local areas they live. Local authorities are trusted by 80% of their can and cannot do, charting a strategic pathway linked citizens—afarhigherpercentagethantrust,say,theelectricity to long-term funding. Those are their words and their suppliersorevencentralgovernment—solocalauthorities experiences, not mine. are essential to the delivery of the net zero route map. Whether it is co-ordination and unity of purpose This is the case especially in such areas as the energy between Whitehall departments, or central and local efficiency of homes and buildings, transport, waste, government, this has to work. I have made many planning and the often neglected area of enforcement. recommendations, but I ask the Minister specifically: What better example is there of local doing it better will he ensure that a route map is published, in full than retrofit and home insulation? The fiasco of the consultation with local authorities, that paves the way green homes grant illustrates all too well that in this for close and mandatory co-operation and co-ordination area top-down does not work. Local or combined between central and local government? If so, we can authorities should spearhead retrofit, preferably on a achieve so much more, better and at greater speed. street-by-street basis. To me, that is utterly obvious. I beg to move. Frankly,they should also be delivering the ECO—energy company obligation—programme rather than the energy 2.43 pm supply companies. But of course, dumb Treasury Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I start with some definitions of public expenditure get in the way of serious congratulations. I first congratulate the noble Lord, delivery. Lord Teverson, on picking out this debate and on his Transport is the one growing area of emissions in masterly coverage of the issues in his opening statement. the UK and, with the rise of white vans and SUVs, it is This is a vital point; we need to make sure that not just air travel and shipping. Again, local authorities government not only is not prone to complacency—as are clearly the best at delivering co-ordinated low-carbon has been the case hitherto—but is getting itself into a transport plans. Only they can ensure that all citizens position where it is capable of delivering what it promises have access to charging points for EVs at or by their and its stated intentions. I also briefly congratulate the homes, not least when they do not have a parking Government, who yesterday produced on paper a pretty space except on the road. Only in that way can we coherent response to the Climate Change Committee’s ensure a just transition, which we all want. Moving latest carbon budget, increasing the ambition of the from landfill and energy from waste to recycling and timescale for delivery of our pathway to net zero. reuse is a core local activity as well. The enforcement That was positive. It was also positive that, for the of planning conditions, building regulations and trading first time, they included figures for the UK’scontribution standards on energy efficiency is local but hugely to the cost of shipping and aviation, which the British underfunded, making prosecution unlikely.That under- economy imposes on international transportation. As funding of enforcement really must change. the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked, however, where Among all their other strategies and route maps, are the means of delivery? We have already failed—or the Government must publish a specific plan or concordat are likely to fail—to meet the previous CCC carbon for how they will engage fully with local authorities in budget, and there is no reason to think that the GC 315 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 316

Government are in better shape to deliver on the be the purview of one department are affected by the subsequent stages. The work of the Climate Change position of other departments.Take the first: quadrupling Committee has been vital. It has spelled out across the offshore wind power. This involves BEIS, obviously, board what we need to do nationally, locally and as the sponsoring department in energy policy, but we internationally. Everybody—apart from a few climate are proposing quadrupling wind power, which means change deniers, whom we still have in this House—has that we will have to bring more of that power ashore. agreed that this is a good and clear road map. In It means that the current situation, where individual theory, so it is, but it is the practice to which the noble turbines in arrays have their own point of contact to Lord, Lord Teverson, has drawn to our attention. the shoreline, will increase a hundredfold if we allow I draw the same conclusion as the noble Lord, Lord every single instance of a turbine in an array to have Teverson. We need in charge of this process a senior its own point of contact. That is ridiculous. Minister at least equivalent in status to the Chancellor Weneed to ensure that there is a network at sea before of the Exchequer. The appointment of Alok Sharma, we bring it on land so that we reduce those hundreds capable man though he is, is not what I mean. I mean of points to a few score.That requires planning permission someone who has command over other departments, from the local authority; environmental controls from whose name resounds around Whitehall, and who can the Environment Agency; and Defra and the marine give a lead to other parts of the public and private authorities to look at the effects on marine life and sector. fisheries. And all that needs to be brought together to Wealso need to engage all departments in a high-level deliver what seems to be a simple quadrupling of what Cabinet committee, probably led by that same Minister, has been a very successful commitment to offshore if notthePrimeMinisterhimself.Indifferentcircumstances, wind. I might have suggested the Prime Minister, but I am The same will apply in other areas, even in nuclear not entirely sure that, in the present circumstances, that power,which seems very much a central, single government would be wise. We need somebody specifically focused interest. That will also require huge commitments on on this task. Again, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, the environmental, planning and construction side. It says, the departments largely in charge of delivery at will require an integration of the delivery of new the moment are not particularly highly rated within nuclear power with other aspects of the delivery of greener Whitehall or,indeed, in the country as a whole.Moreover, energy and heating, such as the creation of hydrogen their climate change commitments are only part of and, indeed, carbon capture and storage. their responsibilities, so BEIS’s responsibility for climate I have decided not to go through all 10 points so I change is often swamped by its industrial and energy will not do so. However, in addition to the changes in responsibilities. Even Defra, which is still in charge of central government that the noble Lord referred to, as mitigation and various other aspects of climate change, have I, we will need local government to become more is swamped by rural and agricultural requirements. coherent, we need relations between the central They are not departments that can deliver. We need a Administration and the devolved Administrations to new department for climate change. work more effectively on this, and we will need to ensure that there is clarity in reporting to Parliament. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner That is my last point. I was a member of the Joint of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, I apologise to the noble Committee of the House of Commons which preceded Lord, Lord Whitty. There is a Division in the Chamber, the Climate Change Act 2008. I now seem to have gone so we shall adjourn for five minutes. full circle: as of last week, I have become a member of the Lords new Committee on Environment and Climate 2.47 pm Change, and I am very grateful to your Lordships for Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. putting me there. However, some things have not improved, and cohesion in government is one of them. 2.52 pm If that is not achieved by government itself, perhaps parliamentary pressure through our committees and The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner the Commons committees will ensure that the fine words of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, the Grand Committee and the very clear policy direction is delivered by an will now resume and I invite the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, interlocking and clear commitment from government. to continue his speech. The clear strategy, some of which was announced yesterday, the fine words, the individual commitments, Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]: I apologise for the interruption; and the fact that we have most of business and much I have slightly lost my place. My original intention in of the public on side, will not deliver of itself. It would looking at this was to go through all 10 points of the be a serious problem if we were to screw all this up due Prime Minister’scommitment to creating a green industrial to institutional inflexibility and a lack of interlocking society and strategy. That was probably too much and, government. in any case, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has already I support this Motion and I hope the Government covered a few of them. take serious notice of what has been said. However, under each point, it is clear that is not just central government and a particular department that 2.56 pm is responsible for delivery, but a whole range of departments; that was pretty clear from what the The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]: My Lords, I welcome noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said about transport, the Prime Minister’s radical new climate change buildings and so forth. Even the things that appear to commitments announced yesterday, which will set the GC 317 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 318

[THE EARL OF CAITHNESS] Office, say—whose sole focus is ensuring that work is UK on course to cut carbon emissions by 78% by integrated, complementary and, crucially, deliverable 2035. For the first time, climate law will be extended at local level. to cover international aviation and shipping. That I understand there are great challenges at the local commitment, which is to become law, brings forward authority level. Some 96% of local authorities surveyed the current target for reducing carbon emissions by said that funding was a barrier to them tackling climate 15 years and confirms the UK’s world-leading position. change; 93% cited legislation or regulation, 88% a lack That is also the easy bit. The challenge now is to have of workforce capacity and 78% a lack of skills. The policies to realise the targets, and that will not be Government and local authorities have a huge amount possible without a more joined-up approach both at still to do. But the Government are doing things, the departmental level and between government and which is good news. The Environment Bill, which we local authorities. That is the subject of this timely will discuss when Parliament reassembles, includes a debate, and I am most grateful to the noble Lord, requirement that the Government should prepare a Lord Teverson, for choosing the date so successfully. policy statement to set environmental principles. One There is no shortage of advice for the Prime Minister principle is how environmental protection should be and the Government. In its report to Parliament in integrated into the making of policies. The Bill would June 2020, the Committee on Climate Change—the require Ministers to have due regard to the policy CCC—argued that the scale of the net-zero goal required statement when making policy. I have no doubt that it to be all noble Lords speaking in today’s debate will take part in the Environment Bill and I expect it to emerge “embedded and integrated across all departments, at all levels of a stronger and better Bill when it leaves our House. Government and in all major decisions that impact on emissions.” HM Treasury has revised the Green Book to place It has also recommended steps to improve integration a greater emphasis on environmental considerations. in net zero policy-making. Similarly, the National Audit The Treasury is also carrying out a further review of Office stated that the current approach to valuing future benefits adequately “all government bodies, including departments, arm’s-length bodies and accounting for environmental effects. The Dasgupta and executive agencies have a role to play.” review is a promising start but it is not the end of the It also recommended a cross-government plan, as well road; it is merely the beginning. as regular reviews of the effectiveness of current oversight What has not been mentioned so far is that it is not arrangements. In August 2020, the Prime Minister’s just local government in England that matters. The Council for Science and Technology published advice CCC said that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to the Government on using a whole-systems approach account for around one-fifth of the UK’s emissions to the transition to net zero. for environmental effects. Therefore, they will have to play an integral role in reaching the net zero target The Government agreed that net zero should be a and there will have to be great co-operation between core government goal integrated into all policy-making Westminster and the devolved assemblies. where appropriate. The overall responsibility for the net-zero target rests with the Department for Business, At the end of the day, all of us will be involved in Energy and Industrial Strategy,but every other department climate change. All our lifestyles are going to change. is involved. The USA is doing well on a joined-up We are going to need to be involved as individuals. But approach, particularly since President Biden took office, in order to feel that involvement and to take part in and all departments and federal agencies there have the changes that are ahead, we need to be able to been directed to focus their efforts on tackling climate understand and be sympathetic to the policies that the issues. Can we learn anything from them? In the UK, Government announce. Therefore, I implore my noble there is currently a Cabinet-level committee on climate friend the Minister to use the KISS principle—keep it change, but I understand that it has not met very often. simple, stupid. If he tries to make it complicated, we, Can my noble friend tell me how often it has met in the the public, will not understand. I give as an example last year? Is part of the problem that everyone on it recycling, which is a fearful mess. It is getting better has other compelling priorities? slowlybutitisanareawheretherehasbeenmisunderstanding and, as a result, great damage to the environment. We Beyond that committee there are few formalised need to be part of what the Government are going to mechanisms within the machinery of national and do. We need to learn, we need to be educated, and that local government to ensure joined-up, consistent and will be a huge task for the Government. prioritised consideration of the delivery of net zero. As this is such an important matter, does my noble 3.04 pm friend the Minister agree with the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Whitty, and me that a Minister Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]: My Lords, I declare my who sits in Cabinet should be tasked with overseeing interest as a co-chair of Peers for the Planet and echo different departments’ work on both climate change the words of previous speakers in congratulating and biodiversity loss, with the ability to act as a central the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on his compelling point in government for the net zero programme? This introductory speech, on the work that he did for many would allow different departments to continue the years on the EU Environment Sub-Committee and on work they are doing: BEIS on the decarbonisation of his impeccable timing in allowing us to debate this energy in the economy, Defra on land use and ELMS, subject in the week of the Government’s commitment the Department for Transport on electric vehicles, et to the Climate Change Committee’s sixth carbon budget cetera. Perhaps there could be a team—in the Cabinet targets. GC 319 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 320

I suspect that the themes running through this Others have mentioned the Cabinet committee on debate will be echoed by many speakers. I, too, want climate change. We are told that it was established in to focus on the transition from rhetoric to reality. October 2019, but there has been little indication There is that beautiful phrase from Mario Cuomo: of progress or activity, and there are few formalised “You campaign in poetry. You govern in prose.” mechanisms within the government machine to ensure The Government so far have been very good about the joined-up, consistent and prioritised consideration for poetry of commitment on climate, but the prose of delivery of net zero targets. The Government’s 10-point delivery has not been so good. As others will, I want to plan promised a net zero task force, but when will it be focus today on how we achieve the emissions reductions set up, who will comprise the membership, how will it needed to achieve the targets that we have adopted, report to Parliament and the public, and will departments and on how delivery is the challenge now. such as housing and transport, responsible for high While the scale of action needed at every level— volumes of emissions, be included in a way they are national, regional, local government, industry, science not on the current Cabinet sub-committee for strategy? and technology and individual behaviour change—is huge, The absence of such cross-cutting mechanisms and of it is important to remember that there are tremendous a determinedly coherent approach at the highest level benefits as well as costs in taking the opportunities of government cascades down into inconsistent policy- offered by setting sustainability as our guiding principle. and decision-making that is either contrary to or fails As the Foreign Affairs Committee said this week in its to take advantage of opportunities to achieve progress report A Climate for Ambition: Diplomatic Preparations towards our net zero targets, so legislation is still for COP 26: introduced with no mention or understanding of the relevance of our domestic and international responsibility “The recovery from covid-19 will require a Marshall Plan-scale commitment from many and the UK should ensure that this on climate, as seen recently in Bills on pensions and aligns with environmental ambitions, embedding a green outlook finance, when action had to be taken in your Lordships’ into a new economy. The FCDO should communicate to its House to include provisions on climate. partners that environmental agendas are not in competition but Then there are decisions such as that on the Cumbria integral to health, development, and security policies.” coal mine, road building programmes, airport expansion, I want to argue that central to achieving our targets, air passenger duty, the freezing of fuel duty and as well as a whole range of specific initiatives and bailouts without strings for high-carbon sectors, which investments in the areas that we know are critical, will run contrary to our commitment to net zero and be a whole-systems approach to integrated climate undermine our position as a global climate leader. As considerations into policy-making in every aspect of others have said, cancellation of zero-carbon homes national life.While success will not come from government standards and the green homes grant has slowed down action alone, government has a central role in leading, the decarbonisation of housing and has pushed the facilitating, stimulating and providing the regulatory costs of retrofit on to home owners. and taxation frameworks for success, as well as investing How can we achieve this systemic integrated approach? and working, as others have said, constructively with First and foremost, I would suggest a mindset and local government and devolved Administrations. leadership at the highest level of government, and this I shall not focus today on policy areas where net is where the argument for there being a Cabinet Minister zero needs to be embedded or the various sector in charge comes. That would ensure that a climate lens strategies needed, particularly in relation to energy, is applied to all policies and legislation and that the buildings, planning, housing, transport, industry, skills elusive ideal of joined-up government is actually put and education. I am sure that other noble Lords will into practice. focus on those topics, along with the investment challenge, to ensure that there is the right balance between direct We need to look at some other specific approaches, government funding and private investment and that some of which have already been adopted in other the transition is just. Instead, I want to address the countries. One of the most important would be for all governance of policy. proposed legislation and policy initiatives coming to Cabinet to have a climate impact assessment to show The Council for Science and Technology, in its 2020 whether or not they align with net zero. This is already report Achieving Net Zero Carbon Emissions through a being done in New Zealand and Sweden. We could Whole Systems Approach, emphasised: place a statutory duty on departments and Ministers “Achieving net zero by 2050 is a system transformation challenge … to further climate change goals. The new US climate Policy areas that have previously been managed separately or Bill directs federal agencies to in isolation will need to be brought together. They should be developed as an interconnected programme of work, driven by “use all existing authorities to put the US on a path towards data and analytics, with responsibilities, funding and accountability meeting this net-zero emissions target.” aligned behind a single goal”. Just as the Bank of England has been given a remit to To put it simply: no more silos. take climate risk considerations into account, so could We need to adopt the standpoint articulated by the other regulators and public bodies. National planning US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, who said this policy statements should all be aligned with net zero, week that the US State Department would “weave” not be incoherent, as they are at the moment. the climate crisis into the fabric of everything that it Given the critical role of local government, which did. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and other others have stressed, we could follow the example of speakers illustrated, we are not doing that weaving Ireland, which has set up a network of four local very well at the moment; we need radically to improve authority climate action regional offices to support the machinery of government and the coherence of co-ordination and learning and address mitigation policy-making if we are to achieve an integrated approach. and adaptation. GC 321 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 322

[BARONESS HAYMAN] Change Committee, are, quite frankly, meaningless There is an argument for the Government to consider unless accompanied by meaty government processes setting up a delivery body, along the lines of the that cover all arms of government, including its agencies, Olympic Delivery Authority, to drive forward the huge and all levels of government, especially those such as systemic change needed. Given that transition will local authorities, which are rooted in their place and in entail change for individual citizens, are the Government touch and in tune with their communities. going to build on the very successful climate citizens’ The fact that my noble friend intimates in the title assembly held by Parliament last year? of his debate that the case for joined-up government Before I conclude, I will deal with one question that needs to be made tells us that the Government’s words is often raised: is there any value in the UK taking are just that: words. To date there has been little effective action to reduce domestic emissions, given commensurate action to underpin their stated ambitions that we are, as some would say, small fry compared and intentions. I totally agree with the urgent need for with other nations in the league table of emitters? In a Cabinet Minister responsible for tackling the climate the year when we are hosting both the G7 and COP 26, and biodiversity emergency,which manyprevious speakers we have both enormous opportunities and enormous have called for. responsibilities to influence other countries, including I will divide the rest of my contribution into two those with greater emissions than our own, to take parts, the first focusing on local government and the radical action to halt climate change and reverse bio- second on one of the more egregious examples of diversity loss. We will not have the credibility to lead in unjoined-up, incoherent national policy-making by those fora unless we have ourselves walked the walk, the Government. I very proudly served as a councillor not just talked the talk. for Kew ward in the London Borough of Richmond There is much talk of global Britain post Brexit. To upon Thames. My roles for four consecutive years achieve that ambition, what we do at home will directly included that of assistant cabinet member for environment influence levels of climate ambition across the world. and climate change,and sitting on the planning committee, In the words of the Foreign Affairs Committee report which was an interesting and fascinating experience. It I quoted earlier: will be crystal clear to anyone who has been a councillor “The UK has the chance to lead and set ambitious domestic that local government is key to success in reaching net climate policies, alongside credible plans to deliver them … It is zero targets. essential that domestic policy decisions support rather than undermine diplomatic efforts. We recommend that the UK leads by example I will pick out just a few of the myriad ways in and sets ambitious domestic climate policies.” which local government is essential to realising the We need to achieve those ambitious domestic policies. CCC’sagenda for achieving net zero by 2050. Behavioural If we do so, and achieve the integrated and whole-system change is identified as a crucial component of success. approach necessary to do so, we will not only have A top-down approach will not on its own effect that; strengthened our economy, created sustainable jobs psychologists will tell you that peer pressure from for the future, improved our nation’shealth, and protected friends, family and neighbours will have the biggest the future and our grandchildren, but genuinely led the impact. We need to work from the ground up, and world. local authorities are well placed to do just that. They have the power to influence how residents use their 3.16 pm local spaces; they can tweak local road schemes,encourage Baroness Sheehan (LD): My Lords, it is a pleasure more walking and cycling and better eating habits to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. I agree and, crucially, put in place measures to increase energy with her every word. In doing so, I pay tribute to her efficiency in their local housing stock. foresight and determination in creating a forum for According to the CCC, local authorities have powers Peers who are interested in tackling the climate emergency or influence over a third of emissions in local areas, but rather bemused by its urgent complexity by setting much of which come from housing. To meet net zero, up Peers for the Planet. virtually all heat in buildings will need to be decarbonised The complexity of the climate emergency is that the and heat in industry reduced to almost zero carbon science and evidence before us are telling us with emissions. Given the importance of achieving success increasing urgency that climate change cannot be tackled in this area, it is extremely frustrating that the green issue by issue in silos. It is evident that our natural homes grant has been such an abysmal failure—cut in planetary systems inextricably link humans, animals, just six short months. Can the Minister say why the microorganisms—including viruses, the skies, the oceans scheme, for which there was great demand, was cancelled? and all land and its features, such as glaciers, forests, Can he also say why no notice was given and what will mangroves, coral reefs, peatbogs, mountains, lakes, replace it? farms and cities. That complexity is encompassed in I turn to local authority funding. The UK, despite many ways by this timely debate, tabled by my noble its size, is one of the most centralised countries in the friend Lord Teverson, because it asks us to focus on world; only about 5% to 6% of all tax revenue is raised the need for an integrated government approach if we by local government. However, it has not always been are to successfully meet the interlinked challenges this way. In the 19th century, local government in needed to get to net zero. Britain was as decentralised as Germany is today. It This is an important issue, and I thank my noble was only in the post-First World War era that Whitehall friend for bringing it to your Lordships’ House via gradually accrued the spending power that previously Grand Committee. Declaring a climate emergency, lay with town halls. Given the growing inequality setting a net zero target and even agreeing to the agenda among the regions of the UK, I do not think that for the sixth carbon budget, as set out by the Climate change has been an unqualified success. GC 323 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 324

To play their essential role in meeting the net-zero gas.HowistheMER—maximisingeconomicrevenue—policy target, local authorities must be adequately funded. compatible with our leadership of the climate emergency When grant schemes such as the green homes grant agenda and our standing on the global stage for COP 26 are suddenly cut off, that really hurts not just local in November this year? authorities but local businesses and jobs.With £2.1 billion It is clear from our continuing MER policy and, of EU structural funds cut off after Brexit, it behoves indeed, the fiasco around the controversial Cumbrian the Government to seamlessly put in place their successor coal mine that our legislation is not fit for the purpose scheme. We are heading towards the end of April of meeting the net-zero targets, and legislative alignment 2021, and still there is no sign of the promised consultation is sorely needed on our national planning regime. My on the shared prosperity fund. When can we expect it? final question to the Minister is: will we get our Also, when will the Government issue the sovereign domestic legislation in order before COP 26? It would green bond, announced by the Chancellor in the House at least give departments a fighting chance of pulling of Commons last November? Can the Minister confirm in the right direction at all levels of government. that, when set up, it will be able to make loans to local authorities? 3.27 pm I have just one other question for the Minister on Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I funding for local authorities. Do the Government have welcome this debate and congratulate the noble Lord, a view on the new report from the London School of Lord Teverson. Given that I will focus on education Economics and Leeds University,produced in association throughout much of my speech, I remind the Committee with the All-Party Group on Sustainable Finance, of my education interests in the register, particularly UK100 and HSBC? The report assesses how UK relating to my work with Purpose on climate education. policymakers can engage the financial sector to meet I also welcome yesterday’sgovernment announcement the net-zero target and its commitment to the levelling of putting into law the target to cut emissions by up of regional economies in the context of Covid-19 78% by 2035, as recommended by the Climate Change and Brexit. Its authors and supporters would like to Committee. This morning I read with interest the news see Ministers make a strategic commitment to a just of the Mark Carney-led initiative to bring together transition for jobs, including plans for mobilising public 160 firms from the global finance sector—including and private sector finance to deliver place-based projects Barclays, HSBC and Axa—with over $70 trillion in which tackle both environment and social challenges. assets to meet new targets to cut the carbon content of Will the Government respond to the report and put those assets by 2030. It occurred to me: if the finance their response in the public domain? sector can come up with a plan, what is the plan for I want to dwell on jobs for a moment. Maybe the the public sector? Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Clearly, we need leadership from central government green homes grant scheme, in large part, fell because and, as others have said, this year is a great opportunity. of a lack of skilled people to carry out the installations Tomorrow is Biden’s summit; the biodiversity COP is and the complete lack of an efficient process to administer next month in China; the G7 is in Cornwall in June; there the scheme. Local authorities know their workforce. is the G20 meeting in Italy; and COP 26 is in November They know where they are; they know what they do. in Glasgow. This is the time to set an aggressive, They will be invaluable in helping to get people reskilled ambitious course with such a focus on climate change and ready for new jobs in the greening of various to drive national momentum and public opinion. sectors of our economy.The only way that communities The cynic in me, as with others, warns that this is a will be ready to take advantage of the new jobs that Government who love an announcement and a Prime green investment will bring is if there is strategic Minister who craves the attention and will glory in the planning for the right sort of skills training and knowledge UK’s leadership role this year. But do they have a base that will be needed in the local neighbourhood. delivery plan to make this happen? Will the Chancellor Central government does not have that knowledge— change the Treasury’s long-standing hostility to green which, by the way, is not the same as data. If we are to spending and fund a road map to carbon zero? reach our net-zero targets, local authorities will be key Incidentally, rather than a separate Cabinet Minister to successful transitions to new industries and new for climate change, I would prefer to make the Chancellor ways of doing things. We must value them, and we must accountable for the delivery of climate change plans, fund them. as part of a shift of emphasis in the Treasury from In conclusion, I will say a few words on the incongruity money to well-being. of the Oil and Gas Authority’s policy of maximising Fundamental to that is investment in local economic revenue and the legally binding target of net government-led projects to enable place-based change. zero by 2050 both sitting within the same legislature. This is not just about the obvious local authority To limit global warming to 1.5 degrees centigrade, oil functions of housing, transport or waste. These are and gas production around the world needs to decline crucial, but we also need to see beyond a transactional by an average of 6% per year between now and 2030, approach of investment in X technology to achieve according to the UN Environment Programme 2020 Y reduction in carbon emissions. That will not always Production Gap report. Instead, current global plans deal with the ingrained political problem of there to increase production would lead to 120% more fossil being parts of the population who are not ready for fuels extracted by 2030 than would align with the Paris the change. Agreement. Here in the UK, under the recently announced The importance of a place-based approach is that NorthSeatransitiondeal,theGovernmentplantocontinue success is first and foremost about behaviour change to issue new licences to explore for and extract oil and in the whole population. We have seen how hard that GC 325 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 326

[LORD KNIGHT OF WEYMOUTH] local environmental justice issues, tied to local community challenges is through the pandemic. Despite the best efforts of with climate change, and it needs to be tied to action and “hands, space, face”as a slogan, and billions in spending, ownership at community level.” plenty are still struggling to shift their behaviour to Here I commend the work of Ashden’s Let’s Go make our communities safe from the virus. How then Zero campaign, which a sixth of county councils are will we get the whole population to change the food supporting, along with the Anglican Church. So far it we eat, how we move around, how we dress and how has got more than 200 schools to pledge to be carbon we fuel our lives so that they are sustainable and zero by 2030. The smart thing about this campaign is affordable? not just the carbon impact but the educational one. It I believe that one of the biggest mistakes in the aims to get school and college leaders to stand alongside Government’s thinking in their handling of the virus is their students and pupils in making this pledge one that they have not sufficiently engaged local government institution at a time. as an ally. Localities are different and need different It is critical for the behaviour change for this to be solutions to create behaviour change.A national approach owned by the school itself and to have the work to will always struggle to account for the rich diversity of move to zero led by young people. That way, they learn our nation. Our impoverished councils urgently need about the consumption of energy and water on the more resources to invest in climate change mitigation site, the carbon impacts of the food they consume in projects that will effect the behaviour change we need. school, the carbon capture of what they can grow on The place I would start is in schools and colleges. the estate, and the importance of the choices they Almost half of all households in this country contain make when they travel to and from the school or school-age children. Children and young people are college. They can then apply that knowledge with the already engaged with this issue. We saw that with the skills they need and, most importantly, develop the Friday school strikes. According to the OECD, 78% of carbon-zero mindset we need in the whole population students in its member countries agree that the global if we are serious about the 2050 net-zero target, let alone environment is important to them and want to do the new 2035 one. something about it. The opportunity is to stand alongside This is because, of course, we want schools to those children and young people to shift our behaviour reflect the future we want for our communities. That at a household and community level. The majority of has to be a carbon-zero future. By starting with schools schools in this country are still local authority schools, and colleges, we are nurturing the skills and mindsets either directly or in partnership with faith groups. needed in the labour force as we shift to the sustainable There is an urgent need to enable and empower local future we all want. Young people need a strong knowledge authorities to take a leadership role on this. base in the causes of a warming climate, but also a I commend to your Lordships the work of the strong set of skills that will allow them to apply their Brookings Institution in Washington DC. It recently knowledge in the real world, including problem-solving, published a powerful analysis by Christina Kwauk and critical thinking, teamwork, coping with uncertainty, Rebecca Winthrop, which says: empathy and negotiation. Indeed, these very transferable skills are needed equally to thrive in the world of work “Recent research shows that if only 16 percent of high school and to be constructive citizens. There is such a win-win students in high- and middle-income countries were to receive to be had here. climate change education, we could see a nearly 19 gigaton reduction of carbon dioxide by 2050. When education helps In this country, 77% of adults support teaching students develop a strong personal connection to climate solutions, about climate change in schools and 69% of teachers as well as a sense of personal agency and empowerment, it can agree that there should be more teaching on this have consequential impact on students’ daily behaviors and subject than what is focused on in the non-compulsory decisionmaking that reduces their overall lifetime carbon footprint. Imagine if 100 percent of students in the world received such an subject of geography. My ask, therefore, is for central education. New evidence also shows that the combination of government to prioritise climate education in schools. women’s empowerment and education that includes everyone— Would the Minister like to join me in visiting a school especially the 132 million out-of-school girls across the developing to meet its school council, and to lobby it to make the world—could result in an 85 gigaton reduction of carbon dioxide Let’s Go Zero pledge? The Minister should be inspired by 2050. By these estimates, leveraging the power of education is by Italy, where every school-age child, by law, must potentially more powerful than solely increasing investments in onshore wind turbines … or concentrated solar power”. have an hour each week of sustainable citizenship education. Here, we should mandate time, resources It goes on to say: and training for teachers in this area, and then work “Emerging research suggests the ‘sweet spot’ for climate action closely with local authorities on the delivery of all our is at the scale of 10,000-100,000 people. This is not only because schools becoming carbon zero by 2030. the collective ability to make meaningful action is rooted in local relevance, but also because we reach a certain degree of cost-benefit This is our chance to move on from children and optimization when it comes to the global impact of our local climate strikes to children leading climate action. We actions. If we apply this to the education system, this is equivalent can use our leadership position at COP to get others to focusing efforts at the school district level—or the equivalent to do the same and, in doing so, drive the behaviour school administrative cluster, depending on the population size of shift across the population that the world needs. cities and counties. School districts are the perfect network of institutions that exist in every country in the world that has enough community connection potential to effectively scale green The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner civic learning. Focusing efforts at the local level enables educational interventions to be community-driven, which is aligned to what of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, the next two speakers we know about effective climate action and effective climate have withdrawn from the debate, so I call the noble change education: that is, it needs to be locally-relevant, tied to Lord, Lord Redesdale. GC 327 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 328

3.37 pm course that supply chain could dwarf any emissions Lord Redesdale (LD): My Lords, I must first declare they have taken out. When you work with companies my interests on the register as a director of SECR it is often interesting to realise that we really do not Reporting Ltd and Climate Change Professionals, and understand our scope 3 emissions. One of the areas as a board member of the Energy Managers Association. that is of particular interest is IT. I was talking to a As part of the work I undertake I advise companies company which was marketing and which had worked and local authorities on net-zero targets, the policies out how much electricity it was using on its computers, they would need to put in place to achieve that, and but it then proudly told me that it had sent 1 million the strategies they would have to undertake.Unfortunately, emails that month, which of course has a massive it is very clear from this work that there is a massive effect on servers around the world. Gaming is horrendous difference between aspiration and reality. A lot of for that, as is the mining of Bitcoin. However, many greenwash is going on as well. One local authority I companies just do not understand the cost of computing, spoke to came up with a 2038 target. I asked how it which is a real issue because it is very difficult to get came up with that. It said, “Well, the authority next that information. Amazon will give it to you, while door made a 2040 target, so we thought we’d go with Microsoft will not, so companies have a difficulty in 2038.” On digging into the details, it had no idea how understanding their emissions. it was going to achieve that. As the noble Lord, Lord Once you have understood the emissions, that is not Whitty, set out, a large number of local authorities the problem; the problem is then building policies have made this pledge, but from the work that I have around them and understanding what those policies done very few know how they will achieve it. should be. A lot of companies and local authorities I thank my noble friend Lord Teverson for bringing have made blank commitments to go to net zero by this debate forward. It is usually at this point that I go 2030, 2040 or 2050, but that policy is not linked to any into a great deal of detail on what the Government are deliverable outcomes. Obviously, the next step is to getting wrong. However, I have a solution that the develop a strategy for going forward from that. We Minister could take on board. He might be interested also talk to companies about responsibility: who in in it because—and I never thought I would say this—it the company is responsible for delivering those directives? would be based on the Conservative Government’s This seems to be a problem not only for companies own policy and would be Brexit-friendly, but I will go and local authorities but for government. I echo the into that a bit later. It could have a major effect on words of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that perhaps how companies understand their carbon targets. we should have a Minister in charge of climate change, I know from working with companies that there is a but we had that and then DECC was taken out, which problem, because the net zero carbon targets are quite was short-sighted. Perhaps we should look at reinstating complicated. They are based on reducing emissions in a department on that basis. scope 1, scope 2 and scope 3, based on the GHG Once you have a policy strategy and somebody protocol. I will run through them. responsible, companies need to understand that getting A lot of companies understand their scope 1 emissions to net zero will have costs, so they will have to look at to a degree—obviously, that is their electricity use—and a CapEx solution. A lot of companies are just not if you have half-hourly data, that can be useful. However, prepared to spend money, even though they realise I have been utterly amazed at how even large companies that in the longer term this could save them in energy do not have a handle on how much energy they use. savings. They also need to look at OpEx. Companies Gas is fairly simple, as it is based on therms. Transport need to start understanding that what they are responsible fuel, however, is not simple to work out; most of the for in managing their organisations has often been energy managers I work with have never had to deal farmed out to third parties, especially in facilities with transport before. I was talking to a company—a management areas. Therefore, you might be running call centre—which had 140 spaces in its car park and buildings, the contracts for which are based on a like- which was looking at the energy used in the building. I for-like replacement rather than replacing old equipment said, “The energy used in the building is actually a for more energy-efficient equipment. fraction of what is being used in your transport We also look at transport, where there is of course requirement to get everybody into the office at any the Government’s target to move to electrification. time.” Of course, understanding how you calculate This is a major area of greenwash in a way, because transport fuel is difficult, because you could do it on there is, I think, a lack of understanding of how mileage, litres or cost of fuel, and a number of calculations significant this will be for our electrical infrastructure. need to take place. Many organisations have left transport I talked to one company that had 100 car parking out. spaces and which said, “We’re going to electrify our Scope 2 emissions are those that you have bought fleet and we’re putting in three charging points.” I on behalf of another company or organisation, and said, “That means you could probably charge nine some companies are getting that under way, especially cars during the working day—and you have 100 cars with grey fleet. I have been amazed by how local out there.” They then said that they would put in a lot authorities do not understand the emissions from grey of charging points. But, of course, if you put in more fleet; that is, cars that are used as company cars. Of charging points you need a bigger transformer, and course, that is a very large emission factor that often does you need more electrical supply. At a lecture recently, I not get added to the emissions of the company itself. was interested to learn that those fast-charging points On scope 3, which is the supply chain, very few on motorways have an energy use equivalent to 250 houses. apart from the largest companies have an understanding We realised that when we put them in, we were talking of the emissions from their supply chain, and of about a small village’s energy supply just for that. GC 329 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 330

[LORD REDESDALE] I intend in my contribution to highlight the urgent The noble Lord, Lord Knight, talked about behaviour need for the Government to set out a coherent plan to change. One area where we have been trying to work make our built environment zero carbon by 2050. with companies is in getting people to realise that this Debates about reducing carbon emissions often focus is not just a policy. If we are to hit net zero, everybody on fuel substitution—let us stop burning coal to generate in the company has to understand how they have to electricity, for instance. When the debate moves on to change their energy usage. talk about the necessary infrastructure to deliver those I have set out these small problems—slight mountains things, the discussion tends to focus on how to get to climb—but I did say that I would suggest a solution more vehicle charging points, what technology to use to the Minister that could be helpful, which is to for charging for road use, building more cycleways and change the SECR reporting regime. In 2019, the putting in showers and bike stores at workplaces. That Government brought forward a new GHG reporting is all good stuff, but one basic fact about climate regime: streamlined energy and carbon reporting, or change policy is often overlooked: that noble Lords’ SECR—it does not really roll off the tongue. It basically houses emit more carbon dioxide each year than noble means that large companies—large as defined under Lords’ cars. the Companies Act—must report all their energy data, The built environment as it exists now is responsible show which metric they have used and do an intensity for at least 30% of the United Kingdom’s emissions metric. They also then have to list all their principal each year, twice as much as the whole transport sector, energy-efficiency measures and whether any are not road, rail and air combined. Every year we are building undertaken. Each company has to do this by law and more homes that actually make it worse. Each new then report it to Companies House, with the information school, hospital, factory and office block makes it made available in its company report. worse, making reaching the target of zero carbon by A very simple change that could be done very 2050 harder, not easier. Noble Lords might expect, in quickly through a statutory instrument—I know that a rational world of evidence-led policy making, that PwC is doing some work for BEIS at the moment here in your Lordships’ House, and along the road in looking at whether this could be brought forward—would Whitehall, we would see carbon reduction of the built be to make it an obligation on companies to put their environment getting twice as much attention as all net zero plan into their company reports. It could be that expended on the transport sector, with twice as done in a way that was not very expensive. To make it much spent on research and twice as much invested in Brexit-friendly, ESOS—the energy savings opportunity cutting emissions. Noble Lords would expect a laser-like scheme—which was part of the European directive, focus on delivery on that by any Government aiming could be scrapped, which would create a saving to to meet their statutory zero-carbon deadline by 2050, companies. Some of the information that was needed let alone trying to meet an 80% reduction by 2035. In for ESOS could then be incorporated into SECR, fact that is not what is happening, despite Ministers which is a second obligation on companies. setting out to turn the UK into the pre-eminent soft If companies were required to put their net zero power of the world, sailing on an independent course plans into their company reports, it would allow as global Britain. stakeholders to understand where they are going forward. This November the Government will host the one One area that we found most interesting is that companies international forum where they might be able to are finding that their stakeholders are not just their demonstrate genuine world leadership, COP 26. Surely shareholdersanymorebuttheiremployees,theircustomers the Minister can see the value of demonstrating at that and, interestingly, their banks, finance companies and conference that they have a credible plan to decarbonise insurers, which look very carefully at sustainability the built environment. All the participants at that and climate change criteria when they are looking at conference will be looking to the UK to see what investment opportunities. world leadership on climate change really means. They Would the Minister be open to talking to his officials will surely see through an empty promise for 2038 about whether SECR could be changed to include the that is not backed by a credible delivery strategy for net zero target and looking at whether we could introduce carbon reductions from existing buildings, especially a statutory instrument to achieve this? If a statutory homes. instrument were brought forward, it would mean that Let me chart a course for the Minister to follow on companies—before COP 26—would start having to that perilous journey to super soft power status at set out their net zero plans. The cost would not be COP 26. First, he should stop building stuff badly. high, but it would mean that Britain would be a world Back in 2015, the incoming Conservatives scrapped leader in moving forward on how companies can adapt the plan for all new homes to be zero carbon. Since to climate change. then 800,000 homes have been deliberately built to a The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner lower standard, which means they all face the need for of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord upgrading before 2050. That was an environmental Berkeley, is not on the call, so I call the noble Lord, scandal, and it remains a continuing wasted opportunity. Lord Stunell. Today the Minister should announce that all new homes started on site from April 2022 must be zero 3.49 pm carbon. Let us stop building stuff badly. That surely is Lord Stunell (LD) [V]: My Lords, I start by reminding a policy no-brainer. And, yes, of course, he should noble Lords that I am the honorary president of the also require all new publicly funded buildings of every National Home Improvement Council and an honorary type to be zero carbon from the same date, with a firm fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers. timetable for the private sector to be zero carbon too. GC 331 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 332

But all that zero-carbon new build will still be only schemes. But to deliver that for home energy upgrades a small fraction of the built environment when we get will take a serious level of long-term commitment by to 2050. There are 24 million homes now and it is this Government to lay sound foundations for establishing likely that 20 million of them will still be standing in a capable delivery programme. 2050. They all have to be massively upgraded if there The Government will need to work very closely is to be any chance of reaching zero carbon by then. In with the construction industry on to deliver the work. that context, the announcement of the green homes The great majority of those 1.6 million central heating grant last year sounded very promising: a 600,000 boilers installed each year are put in by small and home programme to be completed by this March. If micro-businesses, not by mega construction firms. In we kept going at that rate, 33 years later all homes the future, home energy upgrades will be done best would be upgraded—a three-year overshoot on 2050, when they are delivered through small companies and but a promising start. However, as of this week the businesses.With those things in place,success can certainly Government have set themselves the new target of an follow. 80% reduction by 2035. I say to the Minister that even In summary, the Government need to stop making had the green homes grant delivered 600,000 home it worse with new build and make zero-carbon upgrades a year as originally planned, the scheme infrastructure the new normal; to tackle the backlog would have reached only 8.4 million homes by 2035, of energy wastage and carbon emissions in our existing with only 40% of existing homes upgraded, not the building stock; and to plan ahead and plan long term. 80% targeted. They need to learn from the green homes grant experience But, as your Lordships know, sounding promising that a press release is not a policy nor a delivery was as good as it ever got with the green homes grant. plan—and that Rome was not built in 26 weeks. The I hope the Minister will not use any of his time to tell Government need to work with trusted partners in your Lordships how nearly successful it was. The fact local government, empowering them to supervise and is that it did not deliver any extra jobs—the key reason deliver, and give confidence to the construction industry given at the time of the scheme’s launch; it delivered that it is safe and indeed profitable for it to invest in less than 10% of the planned improvements to homes; the skills and capacity building needed. it completely disillusioned the home improvement My question to the Minister is: does he take to industry; it deeply frustrated a large pool of willing heart the urgent need to cut carbon in construction home owners who have been turned away from making and to upgrade the country’s 24 million homes? If so, improvements; and it enriched an incompetent IT what is the plan, when will it start, who will deliver it company in Virginia, USA. Now, finally, it has been and what are the milestones on the journey? Does he cancelled. The very small slice of the unspent money not, at the least, accept that answers to those questions rolled over into this year has now been slashed as well, that are provided before COP 26 starts will have a with an announcement this week—the first sign, perhaps, double value in giving leadership at that conference on of ministerial understanding of real life—of £300 million the urgently needed international framework of climate being redirected instead to local housing providers for change mitigation? use in upgrading homes in the low-income housing sector. My noble friend Lord Teverson has set the Minister The green homes grant was not world beating, nor the exam question today. I have done my best to prep will it be a soft power enhancer at COP 26. In fact, it the Minister on what he might best say in response, at was a perfect working example of what the noble least in regard to the 30% of our carbon output that Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to as silo policy-making comes from buildings. I am looking forward with great by people who took no advice from anyone. interest to hearing from the Minister later whether or not my coaching has borne fruit. Therefore,the second step for the Minister to announce today is a completely fresh start to upgrading all of 4.01 pm England’s homes in a steady multiyear programme. It will need innovation and investment in capacity building. Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]: My It will need to be driven by regulatory changes and Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for supported by serious workforce planning, with recruitment securing this debate and for his clear and powerful and retraining in the skills needed. Essential to all that introduction to it. I particularly welcome those telling is a shelf life not of the laughable 26 weeks offered by quotes from local government officials. I have enjoyed the green homes grant but more like 26 years. It will many of the contributions that we have heard already need to work and build with trusted partners. The one from all sides of your Lordships’Committee.I particularly undoubtedly successful outcome from the green homes appreciated the contribution from the noble Baroness, grant was the demonstration that local authorities, Lady Hayman. Her phrases “from rhetoric to reality” given their head, can deliver in this area, as they have and “from poetry to prose” are being reflected in the done with the low-income owners scheme. speeches of most other noble Lords. If this Committee To get 80% of our homes upgraded by 2035, an were marking the Government’s work on integration average of 1 million homes a year will need work done. of policy-making and the climate emergency, the result That is not as daunting as it may sound: nearly twice would surely not rise above D-minus. that number of central heating boilers are replaced It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, each year without any drama at all. That is done whose 2004 Private Member’s Bill, which became an because there are skilled installers in place all over the Act, on sustainable and secure buildings was ground- country, a marketplace that functions well, and a breaking at the time. It is such a tragedy that we have regulatory system that underpins safe and efficient made so little progress on energy efficiency in the past GC 333 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 334

[BARONESS BENNETT OF MANOR CASTLE] greenhouse gas emissions. As the headline’s wording two decades and we are still building dreadful-quality suggests, this was a positive article. Top billing went to new homes, immediately in need of extensive retrofitting. the globally fast-spreading 15-minute city proposal: That is a far more expensive process than building the idea that what you need daily, for work, leisure, them right in the first place in our lax regulatory education and shopping, should all be within a 15-minute environment. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, beautifully cycle ride of your home. The article notes: summed up what was needed in new homes in a slogan “Paris has gone the furthest toward realizing this urban ideal that would even fit on the side of a bus: “Stop Building citywide”. Badly”. I will not even start today on the green homes It also notes that Barcelona has freed up entire swathes fund. Even the Government have admitted that that of its street grid to make pedestrian “superblocks”. was a disastrous, ill-delivered policy and another That is something I was working on with campaigners outsourcing disaster. The terrible quality of our housing to try to get going in central London, around Bloomsbury, is a tragedy for the planet and for the households that back around 2008. Progress in the UK on this essential have to live in such uncomfortable, inadequate action for climate, for clean air, for cutting congestion environments and pay the heating bills for them. and freeing the streets for people? Zilch. As I turn directly to the Motion before the Committee, In the Bloomberg article, what other places get I should declare my position as a vice-chair of the mentioned for city action? Chicago, where Local Government Association. Reaching net zero “rooftop vegetation proliferated after a 2004 mandate required emissions is a necessary condition to playing the UK’s private developments to include sustainable elements”. essential part as an historically massive contributor to The article notes: the climate emergency—as a former colonial power that destroyed much of the earth, leaving nations ill- “Bogotá’s whole public transit system—including its nearly equipped to deal with it. It is not, however, a sufficient 1,500 buses—is on track to be fully electric by mid-2022”. condition: our current rate of progress is far too slow, I contrast that with figures I came across this morning as are our targets. We should be aiming for net zero for the entirety of South Yorkshire, which has 36 electric by 2030. buses, all in Sheffield. Climate is only one of our problems. We also have Back to the Bloomberg article and the good news: the crisis in our state of nature: our soil is in disastrous Izmir in Turkey gets a mention for heating an entire condition and the world is choked with plastic waste. district using geothermal energy since 1996, with savings This is an appropriate time to mention that this is of 35% on heating costs for residents. There are so Reusable Nappy Week. An attempt to initiate it was many good examples around the world. Great progress made many years ago by the excellent Women’s is being made, often led by local and city governments Environmental Network to highlight the social and and delivering, in the jargon, real co-benefits, improving environmental damage posed by single-use nappies—a the lives of households and reducing poverty and major source of plastic waste—but there has been no inequality. That is the climate good news. But positive effective government action. I mention that specifically mentions of UK cities in this Bloomberg story? There because this Motion focuses on the need for the integration are none. of the efforts of national and local government. Here When I sat down to think about this speech this is one good example of excellent things happening morning, I realised with a sinking heart that I would piecemeal at a local level, often relying on volunteer-led inevitably be hearing that favourite government phrase, approaches, such as nappy libraries. However, austerity- “world-leading”. So I have a question, a challenge, if crippled local governments, with their powers stripped you like, to the Minister: show one significant area away in our incredibly centralised political system, where the UK is world-leading in action, not words, have little capacity to deliver the consistently complete not targets, not meaningless “legally binding rules” services—nappy libraries, support groups, centralised that are nothing of the sort—for, as the independent laundry provision—needed to make reusable nappies, Committee on Climate Change points out, we are not which are better for parents, babies and the environment, on track for the fourth or fifth carbon budgets, not the standard for all. What a criminal waste for the even those target levels below what has been set now—but climate and for people to cut down a tree, pump up oil action on tackling the climate emergency. and turn it into plastic to produce an object used for a Before the Minister brandishes the purely statistical few hours at most before it becomes noxious waste set accounting of our territorial carbon emissions, let us to remain in landfill for centuries or produce polluting note that that figure ignores consumption emissions. gases in an incinerator—that it is if it does not end up The emissions associated with a washing machine littering the local park. made in China but sold and used in the UK are our While we are on the interlinked issues of climate responsibility.Offshoring emissions is not cutting them—is and plastics, where is England’s bottle deposit scheme? not climate action. Not world-leading, not even world-trailing, but so far However, I always try to come back to the positive, behind the arrangements in most comparable countries so let us look at some positive things that are happening that we are on another planet. around the UK. Sitting in the other place, oven-ready—a Talking about the climate emergency and local phrase with which the Government used to be so government, it was striking this morning to see an enamoured—is the Climate and Ecology Bill. The last article on Bloomberg News headlined “Cities are our time I looked, it has the support of 118 MPs and best hope of surviving climate change”, which notes Peers, yet the Government are denying the Commons that cities consume two-thirds of the global energy parliamentary time to discuss it. A letter signed by supply and generate three-quarters of the world’s 100 climate experts and environmentalists calls for the GC 335 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 336

Government to back the Bill. Commenting on that, The Government could also simply create the bodies one of the signers, and designers, of the Bill, Professor and structures already announced. We were told back Haigh, told the Independent that the law would replace on 18 November that the 10-point plan would establish “sorely lacking” mechanisms to turn ambition into a “task force net zero”. That was 123 days ago. Those reality. We have, the professor said, were words—literally hot air. Where is the action? As “a hotchpotch of green initiatives, with no apparent joined-up many noble Lords have asked, where is the Cabinet thinking, while the Earth’s temperature continues to rise”. committee on climate change? But I am being positive. The Scottish Government Finally, we have a new COP 26 spokesperson—even published a draft public engagement strategy in December if we have fallen into having one—but, however brilliant for a “net-zero nation”—an excellent model for they might be at delivering words and however shiny Westminster to follow.If that seems politically unpalatable, and new their backdrop, they cannot do anything call it something different. I really do not mind. The about delivering action. The climate emergency is a people of the devolved nations know that they are far scientific fact. It does not respond to rhetoric or ahead of Westminster on climate action, if still far bullying. It cannot be laughed off with a Latin quip. It from adequately advanced. That is one more reason demands action. why they are moving, at varying rates, in one direction 4.13 pm across the range from “indy-curious”to “indy-convinced”. They can see their nations’ Governments delivering Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]: My Lords, I declare when Westminster is not, pushed by Parliaments truly my interests as a member of Peers for the Planet and representative of their people. the Conservative Environment Network. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on securing this debate That is not to say that there are not lots of good and on his powerful and persuasive introduction. things happening in England at the local level. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to, after Bristol I also congratulate the Government on the work Council led the way, pushed by the brilliant councillor that they have already done to help us achieve net Carla Denyer, 300 of the 404 district, county, unitary zero: their 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution, and metropolitan councils have now declared a climate their determination to be a leader in the global transition emergency.Eight combined authorities and city regions to net zero, their pledge to use the Covid recovery to have done likewise. Some are developing plans on that, build green infrastructure and jobs and the £12 billion but we need integration and joined-up thinking— infrastructure bank project to support private sector the Government working co-operatively with local and local authority schemes. How are plans progressing government and not looking down on it. for publishing the Government’s net-zero strategy implementation proposals? I was delighted to hear the But, again, I am trying to be positive. Since I commitment to bring forward our goals to 2035. However, focused on cities earlier, I mention just one example of that brings it into what I consider the short term rather the many thousands of smaller communities up and than the longer term, and we do not yet have a road down the land that are taking action for themselves: map for reaching that goal. the village of Ashton Hayes in Cheshire, a pioneering community of around 1,000 people, adopted the idea The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and all other noble of being carbon-neutral long before it was a catchphrase. Lords who have spoken mentioned the need for a It has led in renewable energy and energy efficiency. cross-government approach and for integration across Yet when I visited years ago, while admiring the efforts, all parts of government. I fully support that. I understand I did have to look pointedly at the numbers and level that the Government are already working with the of private car usage. Those leading the charge could devolved authorities on issues such as carbon pricing only agree with me but, while public transport provision and industrial decarbonisation strategies. Could my was so poor, people had no alternative. This was not noble friend the Minister comment on further plans to something that a village of 1,000 people could fix. work with regional and local government on these issues? We are back to the need for integrated policy-making The Climate Change Committee points out that and the provision of resources to bodies at the relevant local authorities can impact more than one-third of all level, not trickled out in tiny sums through government- our emissions, and the devolved Administrations of controlled bidding processes but shared around the Scotland and Wales account for one-fifth, so a national country to allow local decision-making, co-ordination and local strategy to integrate policies is clearly needed and planning, based on local knowledge and conditions. to avoid conflicts between different parts of policy-making. Democracy would be a really good idea, as noble For example, reducing traffic congestion could conflict Baroness, Lady Sheehan, reflected earlier. with expanding cycle lanes, and a desire to build new To return to my list of positives, some of this would homes or expand conductivity could undermine emission be really simple. One starting point would be within reductions. As other noble Lords have said, integrated the ability range even of this Government: stop doing policy-making on transport, electric vehicle charging the wrong things. Fixing some of our mistakes would networks, home heating efficiency and even carbon be easy; the Government could implement a net-zero trading are urgently required. I therefore support the test to ensure that all new policies and existing action idea of a Cabinet Minister responsible for integrating support the 2050 target and give the Climate Change all these policies and bringing in expertise across Committee more powers to hold the Government to government who understands the impact of policies account. That would kill stone-dead obviously indefensible on emissions, and indeed on biodiversity, as the noble government projects such as new roads and expanding Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, airports. Lord Teverson, stressed, to align policy objectives. GC 337 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 338

[BARONESS ALTMANN] workers and other businesses in their supply chain. Another clear area where there seems to be a disconnect Again, that is where taxation policy could drive positive between one arm of government and the aims of net change. zero relates to cryptocurrency trading, which has been The production gap already exists, yet our major oil alluded to by others, and the mining and increasing and gas companies and those in other countries have expansion of bitcoin, for example, into regulated firms. policies that are not compatible with the Paris Agreement I was delighted that the Government listened to the objective of limiting global warming to an increase of concerns of this House expressed in the Financial 1.5 degrees or 2 degrees. Fossil fuel production is still Services Bill and overcame their initial reluctance to increasing, which means that either we will miss the agree that the FCA, the PRA and the Pensions Regulator carbon budgets or the financing of oil and gas should have regard to net-zero aims when making infrastructure in the North Sea will become increasingly their rules. That is something this House can be proud risky as those assets are more likely to become stranded, of. Financial institutions at the Bank of England now risking the financial stability and viability of companies have an expanded remit to reflect environmental involved and consequent job losses. sustainability and the net-zero transition. As the host of COP 26 and a country with relatively But how does that fit with increasing penetration of low economic dependency on fossil fuel production, I cryptocurrency trading and use in transactions by hope that the UK will address our own production regulated firms? The carbon emissions involved in gap, as well as rethinking the new proposed coal mine. mining bitcoin, for example, exceed the entire emissions As an example of the disjointed policy which this of a country such as the Netherlands and it adds no debate is all about, this is clearly incompatible with the discernible benefit to society.Indeed, it might encourage Government’s foreign policy priority, expressed in their fraudulent trading and facilitate money laundering, as integrated review, to lead the world on climate change, well as enticing people into speculative gambling on and their aims of achieving net zero more rapidly. something that does not exist. This seems rather like the tulip bulb mania, but without any tulips. I congratulate the Chancellor on announcing the UK’s intention to be the first G20 country to mandate The higher the price of bitcoin, the greater the climate disclosures by large companies and financial energy emissions involved in the whole market. If our institutions across our economy by 2025, with many financial regulators want to control the risks and help coming into force by 2023 and going beyond the to meet net-zero targets this would seem to be relatively recommendations of the Task Force on Climate-related low-hanging fruit, but the longer it takes to wake up to Financial Disclosures. All of the UK’sprincipal financial these risks, the more embedded and financially risky it regulators have explicit mandates to consider climate becomes to remove trading in currencies such as bitcoin risks. These trail-blazing measures may set an example from regulated activities, and the greater the danger to for other countries to follow, and we can be proud of the Paris climate change ambitions. If the Government them, but they are just the first steps. For example, really aim to make the UK the number one centre for mandatory climate risk disclosure improves the green tech and finance, should they now consider a information available to investors and shareholders ban on this type of activity? but does not deliver the investment required for net-zero projects on the ground. It will be important to move It feels to me like the debate on climate change is rapidly from climate risk disclosure to mandatory still classified as a long-term problem, but the climate climate transition plans, explaining clearly how these emergency is already with us and requires short-term will align businesses’ activities with the goals of the action, not just intentions. One of the challenges, of Paris Agreement. course, is to develop clear data and metrics to measure progress on reducing emissions, and to institute regular What plans are there to utilise the hundreds of reporting and correction mechanisms. However, there billions of pounds of pension assets to support the are still opportunities for the Government to join up aims of net-zero infrastructure, housing and other and embed a process into policy-making across investments across government? Long-term investors departments in the shorter term. are most at risk from climate change. There is a huge amount of money waiting but, so far, the Pensions On a related subject, what consideration is being Regulator seems to have focused on asking defined given to devising a cross-government, cross-industry contribution pension funds to aim to use those assets taxation strategy which supports net zero and increases and all pension schemes to disclose their plans. Once the incentives for emission reduction while subsidising again, that does not deliver on the ground. investments that will achieve, or help to achieve, climate goals? For example, finance will be essential for Defined benefit pensions have more money than decarbonising the UK’s energy sector, as it is for most defined contribution and do not have the constraints economic activities. But as a major global financial of daily pricing and rapid access, so I hope that there centre and with one of the biggest oil and gas sectors will be increased joined-up thinking that draws together, in Europe, the UK could play a leading role in attracting for example, the funding for local authority pensions private finance into renewables projects and other net- and other long-term investments into net-zero investing, zero technologies. rather than just focusing on the new defined contribution schemes. That would be popular; the Make My Money We also need plans to encourage large companies Matter campaign caught people’s attention because with assets under threat from climate change or climate the public increasingly care about how their savings policies to plan now for the net-zero transition so that are invested and their environmental impact. I declare they can protect not just their investors but their an interest as an adviser to Cushon, a pension provider GC 339 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 340 that has introduced pension investment funds that are I say once again to people on the green side of net zero now, with carbon off-sets designed to deliver politics, in the broadest sense: please do not think that a net-zero impact straightaway, rather than waiting there is nothing we agree on, because this is something more years, as other firms have proposed. we have all agreed on. The issue is how to implement I hope that my noble friend will take the sentiments it. We are all on the same side and we have to find out expressed by noble Lords in this debate, which seek to what is needed to achieve it. This has to include some ensure that policy-making is integrated across government, mathematics. I do not think that the Minister, given and is consistent and not constantly changing, and his political background, will be attracted to Gosplan reflect on the support from this Committee for the any more than my side is, but what will the methodology measures introduced so far and on the proposals for a be to see how the gap can be reversed and brought Cabinet Minister responsible for integrating policy in back into line? We do not want constant lecturing at national, regional and local government. each other. That would not work. Is there some means by which we can get the 4.26 pm breakdown everyone has asked for—the engineering Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl): My Lords, a central industry, local government, you name it—to add up to concern of my remarks will be related to the growing some figure that will reduce the divergence? We need divergence that can be seen on this chart produced last to be honest with people that that is the object of the June. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong, and exercise: we have to gradually reduce the divergence. I I expect that he will confirm there will be another think 100% of people in this country ought to be able chart in June 2021. There seems to be a divergence to agree that that is what we have to try to do. between the target for reduction graph and the actual We cannot shut down the economy, et cetera. It is a outcome; one is going down, and the other one has difficult period for statistical measurement and finesse now levelled off. We do not have a Gosplan—even if with Covid, but it is pretty obvious that that analysis is we did, it would not work—so the question is how we where we will wind up. do it. We can add up the numbers on paper but it is I will give one example from the engineering industry. more difficult in practice and, as a number of noble Lords In the world today, how we can remove plastic is, to have said, there are no longer any low-hanging fruit. some extent, an engineering issue—all those plastic If I specify the coefficient of reduction of greenhouse bottles that we drink water from. There are water gases as a coefficient of productivity growth, that is purification methods. Britain has industries, large and not output as such but what drives the economy small, that can do water purification with new technology, forward—and we do not actually want to reduce which we are good at in some fields, to have a world productivity growth, do we? We want to increase it market share in those contraptions you put on an against the background of global competition and older bottle so that the water is purified as you drink world market share. So how do we square the circle? It it. There is no doubt that that would save many will not be done just by virtue signalling and lecturing zillions of tonnes of plastic. I am a bit interested in the people at work. industrial policy aspects of this. It might not be Gosplan, but those sorts of companies say that they find it very I come from the TUC, which I was with for 35 years. hard to figure out how to work the Government’s I was a member of the UK delegation at the Earth financial system as to what they can apply for in grants Summit in Rio in 1992 and on the original committee and so on. on sustainable development. I set up that committee in the TUC, and it has done some very useful work. But Can the Minister say that he will make it his mission it is not straightforward, when you get down to brass statement to go round and find how true what I have tacks. I am 100% along the same lines as the noble said is—that people are finding it very difficult to Lord, Lord Whitty, on the practical side; he was a work the government schemes on finance for engineering trade union person in the same era as me. But why is projects such as this? He would have some degree of there such a difference of opinion about where we are authority from No. 10 to do something about it, and I and where we should be going? There should be no think this is something that everybody could applaud. need for a difference of opinion. We have all agreed If people say that the Government have not quite done the target. The Green Party, the Labour Party, the what they said they would be able to do a year ago, Conservative Party and the Lib Dems and so on have at least the road map and political administrative all agreed that is the line that we have to be on—but we methodology would be fit for purpose. are diverging from it. So although we cannot have a Gosplan, we need something that adds up to have a 4.35 pm reasonable chance of not only turning back the divergence Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]: My Lords, I start by but getting back on to the line we need to be on. thanking my noble friend Lord Teverson for giving us The former Governor of the Bank of England, the opportunity today to discuss such an important Mark Carney, said yesterday that this subject has to be issue and for his excellent and inspiring speech. approached in “50 shades of green”—ha ha. He does Transport is a vital part of the jigsaw in the attempt know a thing about this and the politics of it. It is a to reach net zero. It is responsible for about a third of way of saying that we cannot be too simplistic, but our CO2 emissions and, most significantly, while other equally we have to make sure that we have a methodology sectors have seen significant reductions in total emissions, to see how the greenhouse gas coefficient versus those from transport have hardly changed, despite productivity curve can be brought nearer and then in significant advances in technology.The legacy of Covid line with the dotted line of aspiration and government should be that we can build back better but, frustratingly, policy. It has all been agreed. so far, despite all the talk of how wonderful it is to be GC 341 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 342

[BARONESS RANDERSON] in round tables and so on. The complaints and problems able to work efficiently from home, as people return to have not changed. The Government have legislative the office or to the shops, the fear of the disease has powers to ensure that there is standardisation of meant that they are slow to return to public transport equipment and that existing petrol stations modernise and have gone back to car travel in a big way. This is a and cater for EVs too. They have powers to ensure crucial period, when we need central and local government easier payment systems and so on, but they have not leadership working together. used those powers. To make progress, they need to With local elections coming up in England, and work more closely with local authorities so that they general elections for the devolved Parliaments in Wales all come up to the standard of the best. My noble and Scotland, this debate provides a very timely friend Lord Newby, earlier today, was praising the opportunity to look at the urgent need for a more number and quality of charge points in north Norfolk, effective partnership between the various tiers of where council car parks are very well set up to attract government in the UK—because the UK Government EV drivers. He contrasted this with the low numbers cannot do it all. Their favoured model of providing of charging points on motorways, where so many are some pump-priming money and holding a competition out of service. This problem has existed for years: where local authorities are asked to bid for it is of only motorways are the Government’s responsibility, so limited use. Too often, the money goes to the local why has there not been any central government action? authorities that are bigger and most geared up to write Sometimes government transport policy seems to a good bid; thus the funding goes to the stronger, march in exactly the opposite direction from net zero. rather than to support the weaker ones. And, of course, Take their policy on their roads plan for England—the government criteria are often hazy and the money second roads investment strategy—worth £27 billion. goes disproportionately to those local authorities whose This is currently being challenged in the courts by the political faces fit. I fear that the Government look as Transport Action Network. The Government have though they will do the same thing in future with said that the additional CO emissions from this road- money that is currently part of the devolved Governments’ building programme would be negligible. Academics budgets and that the Government intend to apply the giving evidence in court say that the real impact will be same centralisation process. 100 times greater, because the Government have not The Government have plenty of targets on reducing taken into account new traffic, the building process or emissions. Some could be a lot more ambitious but the true long-term impact. If we cannot trust the that is not the main problem; it is the lack of stepping Government to do the sums honestly on a subject such stones towards meeting those targets. That is not just as the climate crisis, what can we trust them on? my view. The National Audit Office recently reported Historically, most of our air quality regulations on the Government’s actions in relation to ultra-low owe their origins to the EU, and we have had a poor emission vehicles. It pointed out that, despite the record as a nation for achieving them. In the post-Brexit Government spending over £1 billion of public money world, the Government have to decide to be much over 10 years to incentivise ultra-low emission vehicles, more rigorous with themselves and to take real leadership overall carbon emissions from cars have not reduced. on climate change issues. That means much more than It concluded: proudly announcing new targets for a time so far “The lack of an integrated plan with specific milestones for ahead that it always seems easy to put it off until carbon reductions from cars has resulted in a lack of clarity over tomorrow. what value the public money should be delivering … departments Central government must set the structure within have not been able to demonstrate value for money.” which local authorities operate. Two years ago, the It also concluded that there was a need for a clearer Liberal Democrats produced a strategy for improving plan and a more targeted approach, not just based on air quality, and some of the points from that help to EV sales. explain what I mean. We need government leadership It is not just the lack of specific milestones: sometimes via a new clean air Act and a statutory independent air the Government seem to be marching entirely in the quality agency.We need obligations on local authorities, wrong direction. This self-harm can be inexplicable. including ones to test and monitor emissions. Central For instance, in the last few months, this Government— government must invest in research. It should structure who say that they are proud to host COP 26 this vehicle taxation and fuel taxation to discourage use of year—have increased rail fares above inflation while the most polluting vehicles. Will the Minister tell us continuing to freeze fuel duty, hence encouraging car why it currently does not cost more in tax to drive a travel and deterring rail travel. What did rail passengers highly polluting SUV than to drive a low-emission do wrong? Why are they worth less than the car vehicle? drivers? At the same time, the Government have cut The Local Government Association asks for an grants to encourage purchases of EVs, just when they overarching transport settlement, with control by local are beginning to gather momentum and long before authorities of all transport funding, to create unified the strategic network of charging points is strong sustainable travel plans suitable for the characteristics enough for EV owners to still be regarded as anything of their areas. It wants a guarantee of a five-year other than pioneers. infrastructure budget, because you need long-term When two or three EV owners gather together—usually investment and planning to make major changes to in the queue for the charging point—they swap horror transport networks. stories of broken equipment, sparsity of charge points Our Liberal Democrat strategy had a host of actions and so on. I have owned an EV for four years, and ever which, to be most effective, should lie with local since then I have taken part in debates here, in APPGs, authorities—everything from enforcing legislation needed GC 343 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 344 to make it illegal to idle your car outside schools, to transparency and accountability across government, creating and enforcing local taxi licensing regulations the Government should undertake and publish carbon which encourage the switch to low-emission vehicles, emissions assessments for all public sector policies, to an obligation to encourage active travel and provide including major infrastructure projects or investments. safe routes to school. Thirdly,the Government should bring together public Most prominent among local authority powers should sector funders to develop a bold, coherent, mission-driven be the creation of an efficient public transport network, programme of public sector research and innovation with green buses, trams and electrified railways. The investment to achieve net zero. This body should have Government have recently announced an ambitious the level of authority to influence spending decisions bus strategy, and last year they announced an ambitious across departments, influence the strategic direction of plan to purchase hundreds of zero-carbon buses made UKRI programmes and set out opportunities for in UK. But time has ticked away and there has been leveraging business activity. relatively little progress on this so far. To deliver on Fourthly,tosupportthedevelopmentof decarbonisation these promises, the Government have to fill in the technology and infrastructure, the Government should detail very soon. They need to trust local authorities consider establishing a national infrastructure investment and work properly with them. plan, with an explicit mandate to support the transition Railway building and longer-distance buses need to net zero, to help manage risk, partner with the co-operation on a wider regional basis. One of the private sector and bring down the cost of finance. longest established of these wider regional organisations Fifthly, to help households, businesses and public is Transport for the North, a legacy of George Osborne. service providers make the investment needed to deliver But here we see a pattern repeated so often by the UK the transition to net zero, the Government should Government: to establish a locally based organisation work with private sector financial institutions to establish and then to undermine it when it does not do exactly frameworks and instruments to give them access to what central government wants. Transport for the the required finance and support. North lost a lot of its funding and its project on smart Sixthly, the Government should announce a clear, ticketing, which has been taken back into a new centralised credible domestic plan for achieving net zero, to set an government committee. example that could help inspire international action The Government have to learn that to reach zero and commitment under their presidency of COP 26 in carbon in the UK, we have to reach zero carbon Glasgow.They should build into their work the objective everywhere in the UK: north and south; town and of fostering international action and international country; whichever political party runs the council; collaborations on trade, investment, finance, technology, and in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well capacity building and R&D. as England. Solutions have to be tapered to the local circumstances using local authority and devolved The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) government knowledge. To do this, central government (LD): My Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber. must trust devolved Administrations and local authorities The proceedings will be adjourned for five minutes. with long-term budgets and give them the advice, skills and support they need to deliver. 4.51 pm

4.47 pm Sitting suspended for Division in the House. Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, a whole-system 4.56 pm approach enables decision-makers to understand the complex challenges posed by the net zero target and to The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) devise solutions and innovations that are more likely (LD): My Lords, we are ready to resume our debate. to succeed. It is a discovery process combining structured We return to the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia. approaches to understanding and managing physical factors—such as infrastructure and novel and advanced Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, getting to net technologies—with broader perspectives on economic, zero will be a big challenge but will create millions of behavioural and other issues, taking into account complex new jobs and improve the UK economy, which suffered interactions. This systematic approach will help to huge job losses due to Covid-19. manage the associated uncertainties, including technical and behavioural factors, and will require the use of 4.57 pm both quantitative and qualitative approaches, including Lord Shipley (LD) [V]: My Lords, I declare that I systems engineering. am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Achieving net zero by 2050 is a system transformation This very timely debate in the name of my noble friend challenge. A clear understanding of the entirety— Lord Teverson is about integration of policy-making [Inaudible]—an interconnected programme of work, in national and local government to achieve net-zero driven by data and analytics, with responsibility aligned carbon emissions in the UK. behind a single goal. A number of steps have to be First, now the Government have resolved to reduce taken to develop the analytical capabilities, flow of our carbon emissions even more quickly, the means of information and reporting needed to inform decisions, delivering their targets will require a genuine partnership as follows. between national and local government. Central First, the Government should require all regulators government simply cannot run England out of a Whitehall to develop an explicit first-order objective to support which has so many silos. Effective delivery will require the transition to net zero by 2050. Secondly, to enable joined-up, local leadership and co-ordination. GC 345 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 346

[LORD SHIPLEY] for the pension fund was the primary concern. But Nevertheless,IwelcometheGovernment’sannouncement today, six years later, it seems to be the case that local this week. It is the right thing to do, and it explains to authority pension funds can take into account broader some degree the absence of much detail in the Budget, issues in so far as those issues may become a greater which at the time seemed a missed opportunity to put risk to the income of the fund in future—so climate a green recovery and a sustainable economy at the change and the direction of travel of policy are important heart of post-Covid thinking. If the Government are considerations which may impact on the value of a serious about climate change, they need to produce a pension fund. Thus, green investment funds can now clear action plan for the next decade. be seen as safer investments than they were. That Weneed much more new investment in green industries. should be the direction of travel for local authorities. For that reason, I welcome the new infrastructure It needs discussion with the Government, but there bank, with its commitment to climate action as a core should be a date agreed publicly for local authority investment priority, the requirement on the Bank of disinvestment from fossil fuels. England to have the further aim of creating a sustainable In this context, I draw the Minister’s attention to a economy aligned with the objective of net zero, and recent University of Oxford report which says that, as the proposals for green gilts and green savings bonds. the world generally moves to cleaner energy, the cost Local councils in particular will welcome these. Some of investing in renewable energy sources has dropped have already issued green bonds to local people to help as they prove to be safer investments than previously increase solar installations and biodiversity improvements, thought. The Government have to lead thinking here; so I hope we can build on that willingness to take they must force the pace to make sure that public practical action. investment ties in with public policy objectives. However, it is not always going to be easy, as the My noble friend Lady Randerson has said a great Government found out with the green homes grant deal about public transport, but nevertheless I want to scheme, about which we have heard a lot this afternoon. add something about it. I share her concerns about the It was a disaster, to put it mildly. It was complex to budget cuts to Transport for the North—for example, understand, had to contend with a lack of trained in smart ticketing, which has been available in London workers to implement, which was not unexpected, and for many years but is not available yet in the north of suffered from far too short a planned timeframe to England. Currently, 10% of all journeys in the UK are deliver. Despite being announced last year to such a made by rail but only 1.4% of emissions come from rail. fanfare, it reached only 8% of its target, yet domestic Secondly, the Government have announced plans homes contribute around a fifth of our carbon dioxide for major investment in buses, as we have heard, which emissions. So what plans are there for its replacement, is welcome. However, they have just spent the last year as we have too many homes that are poorly insulated? telling passengers—understandably—to keep safe and Will there be something else in its place? It would help avoid public transport, so people have either stayed at in achieving our objectives and could remediate poor- home or have gone by car. Now the Government must quality housing, particularly in the private rented sector. say the opposite as soon as they can, because compared There is also a huge opportunity for jobs generation, to pre-pandemic levels, bus usage is now at only 55% as the Government must realise, having promised 100,000 of those levels, rail and tube usage is only at around new jobs are recently as last September when the 30%, but road traffic is back to 90% of pre-pandemic flagship scheme rolled out. levels. This means that we could end up with a car-based It has been claimed that a quarter of homes in the recovery. If so, that would represent a massive failure UK are in places with dangerous levels of pollution of policy. Instead, green investment is essential in the and that 8 million homes exceed at least one of the transport fleet. For example, only 2% of the bus fleet World Health Organization’s recommended limits for is zero emission and there are 32,000 buses. My noble particulate matter or nitrogen dioxide. Too often, local friend Lord Teverson talked about the need for a route residents do not know what the levels of pollution are map for net zero, and here is a good example of why near them. I suggest that councils need to publish one is necessary. What is the Government’s plan for much more data and need to have action plans to greening our transport system over the next decade? eliminate dangerous levels where those are found. In conclusion, it is no longer enough to get other Three-quarters of local councils have now declared countries to plant trees to solve the climate crisis. As a climate emergency, and most are taking very seriously my noble friend said, we face an emergency and what their responsibilities to reach carbon neutrality. That countsindealingwithitisaction.Hisproposal—supported is to be commended. But in the year when our country by many others—for a Cabinet Minister for the climate hosts COP 26, we are in the strange position that not emergency and, crucially, for a senior Minister in the many local authorities have withdrawn their investments Treasury, are both essential recommendations which from fossil fuel companies. Many of those investments should command broad support. If that happened, it are in pension funds—and I declare at this point that I would give local authorities a single route into Whitehall. have a small pension from the Tyne & Wear Pension Fund. 5.06 pm Pension funds have a legal duty to maximise income. Lord Oates (LD): My Lords, I am pleased to have In 2015, there was a significant divestment campaign, the opportunity to take part in this debate and to have but it was said that non-financial issues could be taken heard the many insightful contributions from across into account only if there was considered to be no the Grand Committee. I pay particular tribute to my financial disadvantage or material risk of financial noble friend Lord Teverson, who opened the debate so disadvantage from doing so. In other words, income eloquently and powerfully. As my noble friend told the GC 347 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 348

Grand Committee, joined-up thinking across Whitehall the planning system, and to introduce a requirement departments is critical and integrated planning with that all planning decisions must have regard not just to local government is essential if we are to meet our the 2050 net-zero target but to the intermediate nationally net-zero target. He also reminded us that while long-term defined target of a 68% reduction by 2030 and the targets unnecessary and welcome, they are meaningless sixth carbon budget’s 78% reduction target by 2035. unless they are backed up with credible action plans to How can we believe that the Government are serious deliver them. about these targets when their policies point in the Back in October, at Question Time, the Minister, opposite direction? the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, agreed that the Then we have decarbonisation of our housing stock. Government’s net-zero target needed to be backed up This is really where the rubber hits the road, because by a credible short-term action plan for achieving it. the changes required will reach into almost every When I asked him when we could expect one, he said: home in the country and impact people in a way that is “we will be setting this out in due course”.—[Official Report, far more profound than the decarbonisation of the 6/10/20; col. 517.] economy that has taken place to date. We have zero I hope that in his response he will update us on when chance of success if local authorities are not intimately we can expect that plan, because we do not have time involved. My noble friend Lord Stunell gave a to waste. comprehensive and powerful overview of some of the challenges in delivering in this area. They involve In so many areas, the lack of a plan or even of any overcoming consumer resistance, developing a local joined-up thinking is painfully evident: whether on skills base, co-ordinating decarbonised heating schemes decarbonising our buildings, transforming our transport and providing information and reassurance to the system, protecting local ecology, tackling air pollution, public. That cannot be done from Whitehall alone, reducing energy consumption or preparing the grid and any Government who try will fail, as the green homes for a net-zero future. Just as the Government failed at grant has shown. the beginning of the pandemic to co-ordinate effectively I will not repeat the points that have already been across government or to understand that local government made about the shambles of the green homes grant, was a vital partner for effective public health interventions, but I remind the Minister that, many months ago, I so they are failing in the same way on climate change, suggested that he consult my noble friend Lord Stunell where co-ordination in government is crucial and where so that the Government could avoid making the mistakes local authorities have an essential role to play on the that they subsequently made. I suspect that the Minister, ground. The Government’s Ten Point Plan for a Green having heard my noble friend’s forensic speech on this Industrial Revolution failed to recognise that important issue, wishes that he had taken up my suggestion. role, mentioning local government just once. However, to be fair to the Minister, I have always got We have also heard from many noble Lords about the idea that he agreed with many of the criticisms the silo approach that has been taken in government, that we made about the design of the scheme, and I which is a big concern to many of us. We have heard suspect that it was the Treasury, as usual, that got in about incidences where the Department for Transport the way of sensible policy. I will take his nod as assent. and BEIS pursue conflicting goals on decarbonising If we are to succeed in this area, local authorities transport; the Department for Education throws obstacles need to be given targets and resources for driving this in the way of the deployment of solar in schools; work forward. They are the only agents on the ground Defra, as my noble friend Lord Teverson reminds us, with the ability to co-ordinate change on this scale and seems like it is on another planet from BEIS; MHCLG the trust of the public to do it. As my noble friend seems like it is on a different planet from all of us; and said, they have proved that they can do it, but it will all the while, the Treasury continues to exert a negative not happen unless the Government provide the right influence over climate policy as a whole. resources and incentives, and long-term funding that I was taken by the suggestion of the noble Lord, allows local governments to plan and work with local Lord Knight of Weymouth, that the Chancellor should businesses to develop the skills base that would be be made responsible for meeting our climate targets. required to deliver on decarbonising 28 million homes. Certainly, without Treasury help to drive policy, we Our electricity grid will also face huge challenges as cannot hope to be successful. Instead of fostering we continue to decarbonise our economy. We will have co-operation and integrated approaches with local to hugely strengthen the grid if we are to sustain a government, however, more often than not the switch from predominantly petrol vehicles to EVs and Government seem determined to frustrate the efforts from fossil fuel to electricity in home heating. Yet the that local authorities are making. constraints on investment in the grid as a result of the Planning is a key example where the Government’s Ofgem settlement make it seem not up to the task. policy stance is completely at odds with their net-zero Again, we seem to be failing to join up the various objectives. First, they scrapped zero-carbon home government agencies and departments and the private standards, which the coalition had established. As a sector in a co-ordinated way. Can the Minister confirm result, 800,000 homes have been built since then which that he believes that the level of investment is sufficient will now have to be retrofitted, at much greater expense for what we need to do? than if they been built to a decent standard in the first My noble friend Lady Randerson drew our attention place. Now the Government aim to take planning to a wide range of contradictions between government powers away from local authorities—the exact opposite transport policy and our net-zero policy, whether in of what they should be doing, which is to enhance the the Government’s roads plan or in above-inflation rail local authorities’ability to tackle climate change through fare rises while fuel duty is frozen. We heard yesterday GC 349 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 350

[LORD OATES] There are many challenges but, as other noble Lords that international aviation and shipping will be included have pointed out, there are many opportunities for our in the 78% target for reducing emissions, although just economy as well, if we have a clear action plan from last month the Government announced plans to reduce the Government. I finish by quoting an Arab proverb, air passenger duty. There just seems to be no joined-up which warns: “Commitments are clouds. Implementation thinking. is rain.” The earth is crying out for the rain. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, rightly drew attention to the need for co-ordination in bringing renewable 5.18 pm electricity onshore. The current situation is a mess. It Lord Grantchester (Lab): This has been a wide-ranging is another good example of the failure of BEIS and debate, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord MHCLG to co-ordinate effectively with each other Teverson, for initiating such a thoughtful consideration and with local government. This must be fixed. of a key aspect of achieving urgent coherency on My noble friend Lady Sheehan highlighted the carbon emission reductions. I thank all noble Lords insanity of the maximising economic recovery policy for all their contributions, all with clear challenges for in the North Sea sitting in the same department that is improvements. supposed to be responsible for our net-zero policy. Universal throughout the debate was the fact that a That makes absolutely no sense. credible, job-rich green recovery requires better We saw a similar lack of joined-up thinking in the co-ordinated action across all levels of government, Treasury’s approach to the Financial Services Bill, harnessing investment and regulation and working which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, spoke about. across public/private interfaces to deliver system-wide Despite the fact that the way the financial services change across all parts of the UK. Labour agrees, and industry allocates capital will be critical to whether we believes that together we can harness the opportunities will be able to tackle the climate crisis, there was no for green growth, but only if the Government, as the reference in the Bill to climate change, and it was only lead, take the right decisions right now. All speakers thanks to the noble Baroness’sleadership that a cross-party asked, in their own ways, whether the Government group managed to persuade the Government that they have a credible delivery plan. The noble Lord, Lord had to amend the Bill so that regulators had to have Redesdale, clarified how difficult this is even for one regard to the net-zero target. Sadly, we were not private organisation. successful in pressing an amendment that would have With the pandemic shock felt throughout the world, required the regulators to review the risk ratings applied global emissions fell by a record 7% last year. However, under the capital requirements regulation to lend into by the end of the year,emissions were already rebounding fossil fuel activities, but this is another area where and this year are forecast to jump by 5%, this being the we will need a joined-up approach at national and second biggest annual rise ever, second only to the international levels. 2010 rise of 6% after the financial crisis. Emissions need to be cut by 45% this decade. Clear and imminent This has been an important and informative debate. action demands quicker response times if we are going We have learned much from noble Lords about the to achieve necessary emission reductions. The UK gap between commitments and delivery. The noble already has a target of 68% reductions by 2030. Ahead Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, made the point that of COP 26, the Government need to set a nationally the Prime Minister often seems keen on making big determined target for the UK. Announcing the target announcements, but the noble Lord asked—I think further ahead, such as 78% by 2035, while welcome, rhetorically—whether the Government actually have a nevertheless does not impart the urgency that more delivery plan for net zero. The answer, sadly, is no. must be done sooner. This is targets without delivery I have a bigger worry about the Prime Minister’s and rhetoric without achievement; there has to be approach: he is very happy to make categorical ambition meeting reality, and the Government need to commitments one day and to betray them the next. We treat the climate emergency with urgency. saw that on the 0.7% commitment and the promises The UK is not yet on track to meet even the fifth made to Northern Ireland over Brexit. I have a real carbon budget; instead, we are veering ever further off fear that, after COP 26, we may well see it on climate track, even before any meaningful return of international change. I hope it will not prove to be the case and that aviation. With the success of the NHS rolling out the cynicism has momentarily got the better of me. However, vaccine, the UK is now in a position to build towards even if the Prime Minister does not plan to abandon recovery with investments right now in the jobs, these targets, without a credible plan to meet them the infrastructure and skills needed for the future. The effect will be the same. whole country is calling for the Government to confront When I spoke in the debate on the energy White the combined challenges of the pandemic, unemployment Paper, the Minister was, dare I say it, a bit grouchy and the climate crisis by accelerating investment in that I was not as positive as he would have liked. I clean projects such as energy efficiency, especially in therefore draw my remarks to a close by welcoming housing,floodpreventionandclimatemitigationmeasures, the leadership shown by the Government in committing offshore wind and renewables, and cycling and walking us to a nationally determined contribution of a infrastructure, as well as the electric vehicle charging 68% reduction in emissions under the Paris Agreement network. This investment programme will lay the by 2030 and their commitment, announced yesterday, groundwork for secondary markets when based on to adopt the recommendation of the Climate Change national supply chains, thereby securing regional Committee’s sixth carbon budget to reduce emissions employment opportunities in every part of the UK by 78% by 2035. with procurement linked to upskilling and education. GC 351 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 352

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Knight for what is it and could it be the driving force to provide starting with schools and arguing for embedding a that central cross-government plan that the National zero-carbon mindset for the future. Labour calls for a Audit Office also identified as missing from the national retraining strategy as part of the green recovery Government’s muddled approach? and pathway to net zero; this would boost apprenticeships Decision-makers need to understand how different and give people the necessary skills by supporting policies interact and influence the progress of the workplace learning and other forms of education and whole economy towards net zero. Does the Minister training, which can lead to better access to work. This recognise that stronger oversight across departments would reach across the local providers and co-ordinating and institutions is urgent, with strong governance and institutions, including local authorities, further education leadership structures? Will the Government appoint a colleges, local enterprise partnerships and business Minister with sole responsibility for delivering net leader groups. It also needs to be coupled with increased zero, emphasising delivery of all the milestones along ambitions in bus and rail to develop better mobility the pathway? As my noble friend Lord Whitty asked, plans, together with powers for local and mayoral as did the noble Baronesses, Lady Sheehan and Lady authorities and devolved Administrations to implement Altmann, do the Government recognise the importance innovative schemes that match local needs. of that being a Cabinet post? Many speakers have addressed the process of The Government need to avoid the embarrassment engagement between central and local government to of agreeing and implementing fossil fuel developments enable councils to fulfil their role to translate a national such as the new coal mine in Cumbria. Will the framework into transformative local plans to deliver Government now introduce a new net zero test for all on net zero and their local communities.Local government policies and decisions to avoid mixed messages in the is well placed to take on this role and lead net zero future? The challenge was mentioned by the noble agendas in local areas. Government must ensure that Baroness, Lady Hayman. This new net zero test could councils are properly resourced to be able to do this, provide the necessary consistent, predictable and stable considering necessary finance to set multiannual growth policy environments. Complementary to this test, the plans.In December 2020, the Climate Change Committee Treasury needs to finance its net zero review. Will the set out a clear agenda in its report, Local Authorities Minister say how the Government envisage the final and the Sixth Carbon Budget, identifying that more report to be produced? Will it inform and cement this than half the emission reductions needed will rely on needed cross-departmental net zero strategy for the people and businesses taking up low-carbon solutions, net zero task force that I have identified? The noble with decisions made at a local and individual level. Baroness, Lady Altmann, also asked about a net zero These decisions will depend on central government taxation policy and identified that pensions could play having supportive mechanisms in place. a vital part in leading investments. Local authorities have powers and influence over For all the Government’s rhetoric for the future, roughly one-third of existing emissions already in does the Minister’s department realise that it still their area; they can meet central government policies needs to deal with the identified shortfall in meeting through local knowledge and networks. The Government the fourth and fifth carbon budgets? The Government have responded with a scattergun 10-point plan, listing finally announced in their statement on the COP 26 10 strategies but lacking a more comprehensive approach. NDC that international aviation and shipping will be The Government need to move with pace and bring brought into consideration. Given the diminishing forward more detailed sector strategies in addition to time before the conference, can the Minister outline the energy White Paper now released. plans on how that will work and translate across On energy efficiency, the Government have already airports and fleets throughout the UK? Decarbonising abandoned the green homes grant scheme and the transport gives rise to co-ordination across regions, noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, was most concerned at boundaries and authorities, given that different places the cancellation with regard to housing. The heat and have widely different options and opportunities.Transport building strategy is urgently needed to provide a long-term for the North has already begun to cut through the approach with new measures. bureaucracy and provide better solutions across the The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, concentrated his challenging terrain and economies of the north. As remarks on housing and the built environment. The the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, commented, it Government have recognised the need for co-ordination is regrettable that it has not been supported adequately across departments, with BEIS taking overall by central government. The stability of delivery responsibility. It is to set up two ministerial Cabinet organisations is vital to provide certainty in the planning committees—one on the climate action strategy and system. the other on policy implementation. The National The scope of the issues covered by this debate are Audit Office commented that that approach may show enormous, as local government covers all areas of the “collective ownership” but argues that the split gives economy, including housing and energy efficiency, rise to the risk that goals could have insufficient priority which I have already mentioned in terms of the green without a single central body with overall responsibility homes grant. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and levers to achieve change. mentioned household waste and plastics, emphasising The scattergun 10-point plan mentions in its how widespread the challenge is in everyday life. introduction the net zero task force as putting a systems The devolved Administrations have been identified approach at the heart of government thinking. Yet, by the Climate Change Committee as accounting for there is no further mention of this task force. Can the 20% of emissions and having an integral role to play. Minister tell the Committee what has happened to it, Powers are fully or partially devolved in most key GC 353 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 354

[LORD GRANTCHESTER] Under the Climate Change Act 2008, we have made areas, yet integration of policy delivery is also vital, as significant progress in meeting our climate targets. We can easily be identified from thinking about plans to confidently met our first two carbon budgets and we phase out petrol and diesel car sales. are projected to meet the third out to 2022. We exceeded Similarly, cross-authority working has already taken the required emissions reduction in the first carbon place in areas such as the north-west, where Cheshire budget by 1.2% and in the second by nearly 14%. Now and Warrington, working with Manchester and Liverpool, is the time to double down and decrease our emissions have initiated the Net Zero North West project to further and faster. produce a decarbonisation plan for the region. Investment To do this, the Prime Minister has set out his opportunities have been identified, such as biorefining 10-point plan for the UK to lead the world into a new for waste, CCUS, wave power, HyNet and nuclear green industrial revolution. This innovative programme research at Urenco, all taking place along the Atlantic sets out ambitious policies backed by £12 billion of Gateway, which is at the forefront of the green industrial government investment. The plan will support up to revolution as a renewable-powered “super place”. 250,000 highly skilled green jobs across the UK, accelerate Manchester has also set up a low-carbon hydrogen our path to achieving net zero by 2050 and lay the hub across multiple agencies and organisations, with foundations for building back greener. the potential to set the standard for decarbonised energy generation across the north-west. The 10-point plan will also help to develop the cutting-edge technologies that will be needed to drive The final challenge is for the Government to invest down emissions in industry across the UK, such as in widespread public communications alongside regulatory through our significant investment into hydrogen and and policy change. Will the Minister say in his remarks carbon capture technologies through our £1 billion how the Government might take forward the experience Net Zero Innovation Portfolio. This will provide support of Climate Assembly UK to expand engagement with to sectors which are some of the toughest to decarbonise. the public and provide coherent dialogue on this important The Government recognise the significant advantages subject? that the net-zero transition can bring in addition to 5.31 pm the essential benefit of ending our contribution to global warming. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department forBusiness,EnergyandIndustrialStrategy(LordCallanan) In response to my noble friend Lady Altmann and (Con): First, I join others in congratulating the noble the noble Lord, Lord Oates, I can say that ahead of Lord, Lord Teverson, on securing this debate this COP 26 we will bring forward an ambitious net-zero afternoon. We have had some excellent contributions strategy to cut emissions and create new jobs and from all parts of the House, highlighting what is one of industries across the whole country. This will go further the most important issues of our time. Of course, while and faster towards building a stronger, more resilient we presently find ourselves in the middle of a health future and protecting our planet for this generation pandemic which has to be our top priority, we also and those to come. It will build on today’sannouncement need to give this issue all the attention that it so dearly on the level of carbon budget 6 and ambitious plans warrants. The Government absolutely accept and are across key sectors of the economy, including the energy determined that the UK will play its part in upholding White Paper, the transport decarbonisation plan and the Paris Agreement and driving down our greenhouse the heat and buildings strategy. The strategy will set gas emissions. Despite the considerable challenges we out more clearly our plans and proposals for delivering face, we can leverage our strengths to deliver a better the historic commitments that we have made. and greener economy and go further and faster to The noble Lords, Lord Teverson, Lord Shipley and accelerate the transition to net zero greenhouse gas Lord Oates, and my noble friend Lady Altmann, all emissions by 2050. drew attention to the importance of government working We need look only at what has happened with coal closely with local government to help deliver net zero. and wind in the last few decades, or the political It is fair to point out that a significant amount of consensus that has formed around reducing our emissions, support has already been made available to councils to to see that this is something that the whole nation is act on climate change, from heat networks to cycle embracing. We were the first major economy in the paths to flood defences. Councils are uniquely positioned world to set a legally binding target to reach net zero to align local needs,local opportunities and local resources across our economy by 2050. As many noble Lords to deliver strategic intervention at all scales. have pointed out, today marks another important For those who recognise the urgency of the climate step forward as we lay legislation for the UK’s sixth crisis, a great deal of funding is available. In the carbon budget, proposing a target which would reduce current financial year, the Government have provided greenhouse gas emissions by 78% by 2035 compared several targeted funding schemes, including the £1 billion to 1990 levels. public sector decarbonisation fund. BEIS and the To respond directly to the challenge from the noble Government more widely also work with local authorities Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, on where across a broad range of net-zero policies. For many of the UK is leading on action, I am sure she has noticed these policies, such as heat networks, EV charging and that we are achieving extremely rapid progress on retrofit, local authorities are some of our key delivery decarbonisation. We have shown that it is possible partners. As part of developing these projects, BEIS alongside a thriving economy. Our emissions are down will consult stakeholders either formally or informally, by almost 44% across the past 30 years, and our and ideally both. Local authorities and community economy has grown by 78% in the same period. groups are important stakeholders and, as such, we GC 355 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 356 have a local energy contact group specifically set up to are not made public. The release of that information discuss policy with them. Furthermore, the BEIS local could undermine the principle of collective agreement energy programme, set up in 2017, provides capacity and the ability of Ministers to openly debate policy in and capability support to local authorities through the a confidential manner. five local energy hubs. The noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord In his introduction, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, Grantchester, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked whether the Government would consider a road all asked for an update on the net-zero task force map for working with local authorities towards net announced through the 10-point plan. I can tell noble zero. The net-zero strategy will indeed look at this Lords that a further announcement will be made in issue further. It will specifically include a focus on due course. place-based approaches and we will continue to stay The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the noble closely engaged with local partners through forums Lords, Lord Stunell and Lord Shipley, asked, correctly, such as the ADEPT Energy Working Group and the about plans to decarbonise the built environment in Core Cities sustainability sub-group, and of course the light of developments that noble Lords will be the LGA itself, as we develop this strategy. aware of regarding the green homes grant voucher Further on local authorities, my noble friend Lady scheme. I can tell the Committee that we are firmly Altmann and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, spoke committed to decarbonising the UK’s homes and about plans to decarbonise local authority pension buildings, and that emissions from public buildings fund assets. The Ministry of Housing, Communities have come down by 42% since 1990. As has been and Local Government will consult later this year on stated, meeting our net-zero target will require virtually requiring the Local Government Pension Scheme fund all heated buildings to be decarbonised. to manage and to report on climate risks. On private sector pensions, Parliament has now approved the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) Pension Schemes Act to allow us to require more (LD): My Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber. effective governance of climate risk and disclosure in The Committee will adjourn for five minutes. line with the task force on climate-related financial disclosures. 5.42 pm The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about plans for integrating policy across Whitehall. He was right Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. to point out that it is a considerable challenge; I think the noble Lord, Lord Oates, also highlighted some of 5.47 pm the difficulties that we face in working with some other government departments. The Government aim The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) to take a whole-systems approach to reaching net zero (LD): My Lords, the Grand Committee is resumed. by 2050. This means considering policy areas and Lord Callanan? economic sectors as part of an interconnected system where changes to one area directly or indirectly impact Lord Callanan (Con): The Government are planning others. to publish a heat and buildings strategy in due course. The National Audit Office has acknowledged that This will set out the immediate actions that we will there has been significant progress on net-zero governance take to reduce emissions from buildings. These actions and that this reflects the high priority the Government will include the deployment of energy-efficiency measures give to the issue. That includes two Cabinet committees and low-carbon heating, as part of an ambitious dedicated to climate change—one focused on strategy, programme of work required to enable key strategic chaired by the Prime Minister, and the other on decisions on how we achieve the mass transition to implementation, chaired by the president of COP 26. low-carbon heat, setting us on a path to decarbonising My noble friend Lord Caithness, and the noble all homes and buildings. Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Redesdale, all The green homes grant voucher scheme, referred to asked whether there should be a dedicated Minister by many noble Lords, made significant strides—although for the climate and biodiversity. It is not unusual for not enough—with over 49,000 vouchers worth government agendas to span many departments. The £208 million issued. Toensure that we continue to deliver answer is rarely to move it all into the Cabinet Office on our net-zeroambitions,the Government have expanded or to make all departments have similar responsibilities. their commitment to the green homes grant local The Prime Minister has shown his commitment to net authority delivery scheme and the social housing zero by taking the chair of the CAS. The Cabinet decarbonisation fund, with an extra £300 million of committees hold Secretaries of State to collective additional funding delivered across these schemes in responsibility for delivery. The focus on net zero is 2021-22. That will bring the total spending on energy- borne out by results of government action, including efficiency measures to £1.3 billion, exceeding the of course the 10-point plan. Government’s manifesto commitment of £1 billion. My noble friend Lord Caithness asked how often The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about the these committees have met. I am afraid I can tell my decarbonising of the transport system. The Government noble friend only that Cabinet committees meet as and recognise the urgency of stepping up the pace of when required. He will be aware from his time that progress to ensure that the transport sector plays its there is a long-standing convention that the frequency, part in supporting the delivery of the UK’s emissions attendance list and minutes of Cabinet and its committees reduction targets. We have recently announced that GC 357 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[LORDS] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 358

[LORD CALLANAN] point, but it is also vital to consider this in the context the UK is embarking on a comprehensive transport of the UK’s success in decarbonising the power sector. decarbonisation plan, which will be a bold and ambitious Between 1990 and 2019, the sector saw a reduction of programme of co-ordinated action needed to end the emissions of 71%. UK’s transport greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 and The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, made some good at the same time ensure that the transport sector plays points and asked about the potential to include a its part in delivering our legally binding carbon budgets. requirement for companies that fall within streamlined The plan will think in terms not only of modes of energy and carbon reporting to include an outline of transport but of technology and places. Part 1 of this their net-zero plans. It is important to note that, for plan was published in March 2020, with part 2, containing most organisations in scope, this will be the first time policies and proposals, expected shortly. that they will be reporting this information in company The noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, described reports on a mandatory basis. We will therefore keep an aversion to green spending. The outcome of the under review whether to mandate other types of 2020 spending review counters this impression: in disclosures, such as those that address the net-zero order to ensure that net zero remained a priority target, as we continue to evaluate the impact of these within a one-year spending review, the Treasury made regulations and how the new reporting practices are exceptions on measures that are critical to meeting net being embedded. zero by providing some multiyear settlements. SR20 In response to points made by the noble Lord, Lord committed £12 billion to green measures, boosting the Lea of Crondall, I can say that the Government UK’s global leadership on green infrastructure and already publish estimates of historic and projected technologies, ahead of COP 26 next year. UK emissions annually. Later this year, we will publish The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, asked about a net-zero strategy that will consider what metrics are the alignment between revenue and net zero. Government needed to monitor delivery of our emissions targets, cannot simply spend its way to net zero, not only and will take the noble Lord’s helpful suggestion into because bearing the cost alone is simply unaffordable account. for current and future taxpayers but because spending The noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, asked is often not the most effective way to reduce emissions. how the Government could elicit the behaviour change It also risks crowding out private investment in the necessary to meet net zero. Reaching net zero requires green industries of tomorrow: for example, while the not only changes to our energy systems and substantial 10-point plan will mobilise £12 billion of government new low-carbon infrastructure, but shifts in how we, as funding directly, it will potentially drive three times as individuals, travel, what we buy and how we use energy much from the private sector to create and support up in our homes. In many areas, delivering net zero will to 250,000 green jobs. require the uptake of new lower-carbon technologies, The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about such as electric vehicles or heat pumps. The Government the Treasury’s net-zero review. The Government have are supporting people to adapt to these new technologies, announced that the review report will be published in with initiatives such as Go Ultra Low and the Simple spring this year, instead of its originally intended Energy Advice service. We are also exploring how we target date of autumn 2020. In the meantime, Her could go further and support individuals to make Majesty’s Treasury published an interim report this green choices, as part of the development of our net- autumn, which sets out our approach to the review zero strategy. and analysis, which will inform the final report. In response to the question from the noble Baroness, The noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, asked Lady Hayman, regarding the Climate Assembly UK, I about our plans for the public sector. I can tell him can tell her that the right honourable Alok Sharma as that phase 2 of the public sector decarbonisation BEIS Secretary of State spoke at the report launch scheme has now been launched and has a stronger and welcomed the report. Its findings will help to focus on heat decarbonisation, as this is what we need shape the work that the Government are doing over to reduce direct emissions from public sector buildings. the next year in the run-up to COP 26 and as we Phase 2 of the scheme supports the transition to develop our plans for reaching net-zero emissions low-carbon heating in public buildings by providing by 2050. funding to replace end-of-life fossil fuel systems, such In response to the points made by the noble Baroness, as gas boilers, with low-carbon heat sources. The Lady Sheehan, I can say that the Government have funding can be used to deliver projects that combine committed to issuing their first sovereign green bond. low-carbon heating measures, such as heat pumps, Subject to market conditions, this will be done this with energy-efficiency measures, such as insulation summer. Reflecting our long-term commitment to the and LED lighting. Phase 2 of the public sector green finance sector, we intend to follow up with a decarbonisation scheme has now closed to applications, further issuance in 2021 to start to build out a green and those that we received are being assessed. gilt yield curve. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, raised the On how to finance local authorities, the UK interesting issue of the Government’s plans for bitcoin Infrastructure Bank has £4 billion set aside for local and other cryptocurrencies. As always, the Government authority lending at very favourable rates. Furthermore, stand ready to respond to emerging risks or changes in the Government launched the Green Finance Institute the market and will continue to monitor how cryptoassets in July 2019, alongside the City of London Corporation. are being used in the UK, specifically with regard to The GFI’s overarching mission is to accelerate the the emissions that they create. This is an important domestic and global transition to a clean, resilient and GC 359 Net-Zero Carbon Emissions[21 APRIL 2021] Net-Zero Carbon Emissions GC 360 environmentally sustainable economy through accelerating faster towards building a stronger, more resilient future UK leadership in green finance. Since its inception, and protecting our planet for this generation and those the GFI has progressed significantly with initiatives to come. and coalitions established on the built environment, transport, supply chains, and using finance to deliver 5.58 pm nature-based solutions. Lord Teverson (LD) [V]: My Lords, I thank everybody The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked what for their excellent contributions. We did not manage could be done to encourage sustainable investments. to stretch the debate out to five hours—perhaps Our new and ambitious UK ETS came into force on 1 thankfully—but we have had some really excellent January and will promote cost-effective decarbonisation subjects covered, from international comparisons to in industry, power and aviation, allowing businesses to fossil fuels, education, housing, bitcoin, transport and cut carbon where it is cheapest to do so. It will help to others. mobilise the scale of capital investment necessary, I also thank the Minister for his reply and for deploy clean energy technologies and capture new mainly looking to the future, rather than the usual trade opportunities on the back of the energy transition. thing that happens, when Ministers say how good we In response to the points made by the noble Baroness, have been in the past. I am glad to hear that there will Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, I can tell her that the be—what I specifically wanted to see—further thought Government are currently consulting on a bottle deposit and action on co-ordination with local government in return scheme for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. the road map to net zero. I would like something that With regard to the UK shared prosperity fund, a point was substantial in itself, but that is clearly not going to raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, I can say be the case. I just hope that it is a whole chapter rather that the 2020 spending review sets out the main strategic than a page or a paragraph. elements of the UK SPF in the heads of terms, and There are still lots of things to be done to get rid of the Government will shortly publish a UK-wide those silos that we have talked about. Only by closing investment framework later this year and confirm the those gaps—whether they are between government multiyear spending profiles at the next spending review. departments and devolved Parliaments and Assemblies As we develop our plans for reaching net-zero or between central government and local authorities—will emissions by 2050, we will of course continue to we have any chance of meeting those targets, which we engage with local authorities, devolved Administrations, all welcome but feel slightly sceptical about at this businesses and the public on the changes needed to time. I will feel secure only when I see the Prime develop our ambitions to reach net zero. I know that I Minister driving an electric forklift truck through a can speak for my right honourable friend the Secretary wall that says, “Getting Decarbonisation Done”. At of State when I say that significant work is under way that point, I will know that we have got it in the bag. to engage with stakeholders across society at pace to Until then, however, we are going to keep the pressure understand how the transition can best work for the on the Government. Wewill applaud their good intentions, whole country. but we will much more strongly applaud their plan to actually achieve what we all want to achieve. This year we find ourselves in the extremely privileged position of being both president of the G7 and host of Motion agreed. COP 26, and we are determined to use both those key international moments to promote ambitious action The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) to deliver the transformational change required by the (LD): That completes the business before the Grand Paris agreement. Ahead of COP 26, we will bring Committee this afternoon. I remind Members to sanitise forward further bold proposals, including a net-zero their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. strategy to cut emissions and create new jobs and industries across the whole country, going further and Grand Committee adjourned at 6.01 pm.