Listening inWith …

Mind-body medicine pioneer Deepak Chopra, M.D., was born in India, where his father was a prominent cardiologist. After going to medical school himself, Chopra emigrated to the United States in 1970 and eventually became chief of staff at New England Memorial Hospital outside Boston, Massachusetts. After becoming increasingly disillusioned with conventional medicine, he turned his attention to the ancient Indian system of Ayurveda. Chopra is now the prolific author of many best- selling books and cofounder of the Chopra Center for Wellbeing in Carlsbad, California. Here, Chopra talks to Unity Magazine editor Katy Koontz about embracing a new way of looking at who we are and where we come from—as well as where we’re headed.

Photo Credit: Jeremiah Sullivan

Deepak UNITYMAGAZINE.ORG ChopraMARCH/APRIL 2016 23 Evolution EVOLVED

Katy Koontz: Your new book, Super doesn’t change—we’re not talking and then chemicals are being Genes, suggests humans have evolved about genetic mutations. released. But I’m not experiencing far too quickly for only random that. I’m experiencing the Empire mutations to be part of natural KK: Super Genes shares some State Building. What’s happening selection. Can you explain that? intriguing ideas about the in my brain does not explain how I randomness of evolution. Can you experience a three-dimensional reality Deepak Chopra: Strict Darwinian elaborate on that? in space and time that has color and evolution, the dominant theory for sound and texture and taste and more than a century, is based on two DC: Random suggests that it’s smell. The electrochemical activity ideas—random mutation and natural unpredictable. If I go to Grand Central does not show me how I experience selection. That means that first you Station in New York City and see anything—including things like insight, have a random mutation and then everybody going here and there, it intuition, imagination, creativity, love, some of those mutations that stand seems totally random. And yet if I compassion, joy, anger, frustration, out will, on the basis of sheer numbers, go every day, I will see that there guilt, depression, or shame. naturally be selected as part of the is indeed a distribution pattern— How does this electrochemical evolutionary process. So basically, approximately so many people are activity produce these complex it’s a numbers game. There’s nothing going to Philadelphia, so many are emotions? How does it produce purposeful happening. going to Boston, so many are going to memories? How does it produce the But no one back in Darwin’s time Washington, D.C. So there’s an element everyday experience of a perceptual knew what a gene was or had ever of predictability that comes from reality? How does the universe fit observed a mutation. We still don’t looking at the distribution patterns. inside my brain? It doesn’t. So where fully understand how species evolve, The more geneticists look at is the experience happening? For but we do know now that gene activity distribution patterns, the more they lack of a better word, we can say is influenced by every experience we are inclined to think what we initially that the experience is happening have, no matter what it is. You go see a call randomness could be described in consciousness. Where is that movie; that influences gene activity in differently. I believe randomness is consciousness? There’s no location in certain parts of your brain. You sleep; another word for creative interactivity the brain where we can say, “This is the that influences gene activity again. You at the genetic level. To me, randomness center of consciousness.” exercise; that influences gene activity. doesn’t explain a Mozart or a The food you eat influences gene Shakespeare or an Einstein. That’s KK: So where is consciousness? activity. Your emotions, your thoughts not a random mutation. influence gene activity. As I mentioned previously, DC: The problem is that we’re looking The mechanisms by which that our experiences, including our for a physical explanation, and it happens are epigenetic, either cultural environment, shape our could be the other way around—that increasing or decreasing the activity genetic activity. If you ask regular consciousness is fundamental and of the gene—depending on what the neuroscientists where experience what we experience as the mental activity is. There is no experience occurs, they will say it occurs in the and perceptual experience of the that doesn’t have an influence on brain. But that’s a theory. We do not world is actually a modified form of gene activity through an epigenetic actually know the mechanism of any consciousness. In other words, there’s mechanism. It’s possible that those experience. only consciousness, and the physical genes that are more active could world and your mental experiences naturally select themselves out, but KK: What’s your theory on that? are modified aspects of consciousness. nobody’s proved this at the moment. So when I say the surface of the That’s just conjecture. DC: When I look at an object—right rock is hard, or the feather feels soft, now, I’m looking at the Empire State or this object is red, or I’m having KK: The gene itself doesn’t physically Building—what is coming to my an exhilarating dream, or I am in change but how it acts changes, right? eyes are photons, what’s going to my love, these are some modulations or brain is an electrical current, and qualities of consciousness. DC: Yes, in epigenetics, the activity of what’s happening in my brain is that If all experience happens in the gene changes, but the gene itself the gene activity is being modulated consciousness, then what we see as

Deepak ChopraMARCH/APRIL 2016 23 UNITYMAGAZINE.ORG MARCH/APRIL 2016 23 gene activity is just images of a process KK: Like the expression, “We are subjects kept gratitude journals. At the in consciousness. What I wrote in not human beings having a spiritual end of the day, they wrote maybe five Super Genes (and in a new book called experience, but spiritual beings having or 10 things that they could be grateful Creative Cosmos I’m currently writing a human experience.” for during the day. Just doing that with physicist Menas Kafatos) is that decreased inflammation in the body, the universe is actually a manifestation DC: Fundamental reality—whether changing inflammatory markers called of consciousness—and then so is the you call it the soul, the spirit, or even cytokines, which means it changed brain, so is the body, so is a rock, so God—is not physical. It’s formless and their genetic activity. After seeing that is an atom, so is a subatomic particle, timeless. The source of everything that gratitude decreases inflammation, now and so is a galaxy. That’s the short has form has its source in something we’re looking at whether an opposite answer. that does not exist in space and time. emotion, say hostility, might cause inflammation. KK: What would that mean for us? KK: You’ve been doing research with several different high-level scientists KK: Your findings are at the heart DC: If the physical body is nothing showing that meditation can produce of several Unity practices, including other than the metabolism of some of these epigenetic changes you affirmative prayer. experience in consciousness, spoke of earlier. What are you finding? we have to radically revisit DC: Yes, any form of contemplative what is termed the DC: We’ve seen that not only is self-inquiry or reflection influences “hard problem of there a slowing down but there’s your genetic activity in a healthy Conscious evolutionconsciousness” could also a reversal of aging at a cellular direction through epigenetic (how we level during meditation. We’re mechanisms. In fact, many researchers lead to a healthier, moreperceive also finding that the genes that are now looking at something qualities cause self-regulation (or healing) called bioelectric medicine. If you of are up-regulated, so they become stimulate a major nerve called the sustainable, happier active—while the genes that are vagus nerve (which passes through planet if we recognize associated with inflammation several important organs), it decreases (which is connected to many inflammation and sometimes gets illnesses, including autoimmune rid of diseases like bronchial asthma that the power is disorders, infections, diabetes, or arthritis. But you can do the Alzheimer’s disease, heart same thing through yoga, breathing all within us and disease, and many types of techniques, tai chi, or qigong, for cancer) are down-regulated, example. We can measure at cellular becoming less active. and genetic levels how your body responds to these practices that have in how we KK: What kind of meditation are you been part of wisdom traditions for using for the studies? thousands of years. You can also get treat each this response through what’s called DC: The subject sits quietly and energy medicine or biofield medicine. observes their breath for a few other. sensations— minutes, then they do a few minutes KK: I love that these ancient practices that the feather of self-reflection (Who am I? What are actually valid, fundamental ideas is soft, for example). do I want? What is my purpose? What that we can learn from today. We also have to take am I grateful for?), and then they another look at the go through a process of very slowly DC: Absolutely. We’re also finding Darwinian mechanistic repeating their different identities that genes do not work on a one-to- explanations and say that (I am Deepak. I am a doctor. I am one basis. They act as networks that not only is consciousness the a father.). And then they go into regulate other networks of genes. driver of evolution, but it’s all there a mantra meditation for about 25 For example, only five percent of is. Consciousness conceives, governs, minutes before finally sitting with disease-related gene mutations are constructs, and becomes the physical body awareness. It’s called Primordial fully penetrant, which means you universe. Your real identity may be Sound Meditation, and it comes from can’t stop them. There are almost a that you are a formless being having the ancient Vedic tradition in India. hundred genes involved in Alzheimer’s an experience of form that includes We also do subsets of studies. We’ve disease, but only three or four have a your own brain and body. recently done a study where the one-to-one correspondence—meaning

24 2016 MARCH/APRIL UNITY MAGAZINE everyone who has one of those genes expressing itself through form—so of Holocaust survivors have will get Alzheimer’s disease. With the everything in our physical universe epigenetic markers associated with other 96 or 97, you may or may not is a manifestation of that slow and trauma that influence gene activity. develop the disease. gradual expression of the Divine. Do Our consciousness influences We also know now that there are you agree? everything in our surroundings 150 times as many bacterial genes as well; they say when a person as there are human genes in your DC: One hundred percent. All is perfectly established in peace body. This represents only three to consciousness is transcendent. It’s consciousness, other people five percent of your body mass, but just that we are experiencing it as the start to feel that, and it affects if you look at the DNA content, you material world with form and color them. It decreases hostility see that the human genome has and solidity. The evolutionary part in others, even though 23,000 genes and the microbiome, of consciousness is moving in the the peaceful person as it’s called, has 3.3 million genes. direction of knowing itself. This idea is not necessarily Technically speaking, then, you are has been, in different ways, part of doing anything. a bacterial colony with a few human every ancient wisdom tradition. Their very cells hanging on for dear life. presence KK: Barbara Marx Hubbard, in does KK: So even though the bacteria don’t another article from that same that. involve that much physical matter, it’s issue, said that nature (or God) Consciousness is the the genetic matter that actually makes selects for what says yes to KK: immeasurable potential the difference. potential. Do you agree? Like a of all that was, all tuning fork. DC: Yes, the gene is the brain of the DC: Again, 100 percent. that is, and all cell. This microbiome cross talks with Consciousness is the immeasurable DC: Right. We that will the human genome and responds potential of all that was, all that is, and never have any ever be. to things like emotions, exercise, all that will ever be. There is nothing emotions in isolation. sleep, yoga, breathing techniques, harder than consciousness. It assumes Because emotions are a and so on. So if you change your the form of a subatomic particle or a result of interaction with other experience in a holistic manner so galaxy or a human brain, but all of it is people (and even with pets), a that you are focused on having a still nothing other than consciousness. whole new discipline is emerging joyful and energetic body, a loving called interactive neurobiology that and compassionate heart, a calm and KK: In Super Genes, you describe says we not only influence but also restful mind, and a lightness and studies showing that not only do regulate each other’s emotions. This joy in your being, all that will have your own thoughts, emotions, and is becoming even more potent with a dramatic effect on gene activity— experiences create epigenetic changes, the Internet and the global brain. So not just the human genes but the but those of your parents and your for example, I could text somebody in microbial genes. grandparents can also affect your Africa an emoticon that says hugs and And so we can ask, do these genes. Can you expand on that? kisses, and they get a dopamine hit bacteria have a consciousness? Did right there. You read something about they come together and have an DC: If a cow gets zapped by an what ISIS is doing in the Middle East, awakening that made them human? electric fence, then the next two and it affects your biology. So it’s In ancient wisdom traditions, they generations of cows will avoid the becoming clearer that consciousness say consciousness sleeps in rocks and fence even though they’ve never cannot be squeezed into the volume minerals. Consciousness dreams in been exposed to that electrical of a body in the span of a lifetime. bacteria and plants. Consciousness shock themselves. Researchers starts to wake up and become aware of showed something similar by KK: It’s exciting to think about itself in animals and in some humans. exposing mice to a very pleasant where we can take this evolution of The universe is becoming aware of smell like wintergreen and then consciousness—I feel as though all itself through human consciousness. giving them mild electric shocks. bets are off there. The subsequent two generations of KK: That reminds me of something mice were afraid of the smell even DC: Yes, I think conscious evolution Eckhart Tolle said in our November/ though they were not shocked. A could lead to a healthier, more December issue—that transcendent study came out this past year from sustainable, happier planet if we consciousness wants to gradually Mount Sinai Hospital in New York recognize that the power is all within emerge in this dimension, City showing that the children us and in how we treat each other.

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