John S. Thach

The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Flight Seattle, Washington John S. Thach Interviewed by: Eugene A. Valencia Interview Date: August 28, 1968 2 Abstract: Fighter ace John S. “Jimmy” Thach is interviewed about his military service with the United States Navy during World War II. He describes his wartime experiences as a fighter pilot, including his time as gunnery officer and skipper of Fighting Squadron 3 (VF-3). Topics discussed include his training and service history, his development of the Thach Weave aerial combat maneuver, and his initial encounters with Japanese aircraft. The interview is conducted by fellow fighter ace Eugene A. Valencia. Biography: John S. “Jimmy” Thach was born on April 19, 1905 in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. He graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1927 and, after two years of battleship assignments, enrolled in flight training. He was designated a naval aviator in 1930. For the next ten years, Thach served as a test pilot, patrol pilot, and flight instructor. He was then assigned to Fighting Squadron 3 (VF-3), first as gunnery officer and then as skipper. In 1941, he created the aerial combat tactic that would become known as the Thach Weave, which he developed in response to reports about the superior capabilities of Japanese aircraft. When the United States entered World War II, Thach and VF-3 were deployed aboard the USS Lexington (CV-3). He participated in early actions in the Pacific Theater, including the Battle of Midway in June 1942. He then returned to the United States as an instructor in combat tactics. After World War II, Thach served with Naval Air Training Command and commanded the USS Sicily (CVE-118) during the Korean War. In 1965, he was named Commander in Chief of U.S. Naval Forces, Europe. Thach retired as an admiral in 1967 and passed away in 1981. Biographical information courtesy of: Boyce, Ward J., ed., American fighter aces album. Mesa, Ariz: American Fighter Aces Association, 1996. Restrictions: Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives. Transcript: Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3 Index: Introduction ..................................................................................................................................... 4 Childhood hunting trips and athletic background ........................................................................... 5 Early aviation experiences .............................................................................................................. 6 U.S. Navy flight training ................................................................................................................. 8 Service details during the 1930s ..................................................................................................... 9 Intelligence reports on Japanese aircraft and development of the Thach Weave ......................... 10 Aircraft modifications ................................................................................................................... 13 Thoughts on Japanese pilots and aircraft ...................................................................................... 15 More on fighter tactic developments ............................................................................................ 16 Fighter pilot characteristics ........................................................................................................... 18 Remembering Butch O’Hare ........................................................................................................ 20 Differences with current-day fighter pilots ................................................................................... 22 Gunnery training and proficiency ................................................................................................. 23 Purpose of the interview and the importance of training .............................................................. 25 Stories about family members ...................................................................................................... 26 First encounter with Japanese “Betty” aircraft ............................................................................. 27 4 John S. Thach [START OF INTERVIEW] 00:00:00 [Introduction] JOHN S. THACH: I had to stay back at Pearl Harbor, just me. And I was being increased to a 27-plane squadron. But VF-2 needed pilots, and he decided that we’d take VF-2 aboard the Lexington instead of VF-3— EUGENE A. VALENCIA: Yes, sir. JST: … the Saratoga had been torpedoed, and we were then—so a Lexington squadron. We’d been down at the Coral Sea, and that’s where Butch O’Hare [Edward H. “Butch” O’Hare] shot down these six planes in six minutes. The reason it is six—because I’ve seen since some film that—well, one of those Betties, the first time we’d ever seen any Betties, came down and looked like he was trying to crash aboard the Lexington. And the film shows one engine completely gone, the hole in the wing, and the other one was smoking. And he hadn’t been fired on by AA until they fell out of the formation that Butch was shooting at. But—so I went to [unintelligible 00:01:16], and I said, “Admiral, don’t do this to me. It’s bad enough to take all my pilots away from me, but you won’t even let me go with you down—back down to the Coral Sea where the fighting is going to be.” And he said, “Well, we need you more up here. We’ve got new pilots coming out, and somebody’s got to tell them something. You’ve got to do it.” So I had 27 airplanes, and I was the only pilot in the squadron, the skipper of the squadron and 27 airplanes. I took the chief petty officers. I said, “You’re the executive, you’re the gunnery officer, you’re the engineering, and so forth.” And I flew all those 27 airplanes, one after the other, around the clock to be sure that the guns were working and everything was in shape. And then I began to get a trickle of people. EAV: Well, Admiral, to go back a bit, when you— JST: And they were the ones I had during the Battle of Midway. New people that weren’t my original squadron at all. EAV: To back a bit, sir— JST: Except my exec, who got his head cut off just before the battle. EAV: How was that, sir? JST: His wingman landed on him on the Yorktown. 5 [Childhood hunting trips and athletic background] EAV: To go back a bit, sir. Do you think that, when you were hunting with your dad, when that— JST: What? EAV: When you were hunting with your dad— JST: Oh, yeah. EAV: …you could darn near just hold a 12-gauge shotgun up, that—and shooting dove—or quail. 00:02:46 JST: That was in this Collier’s magazine. That’s where you must have got it. EAV: Yeah. JST: Or maybe it was in National Rifle or something. EAV: But do you think that that kind of motivated your— JST: No question about it. No question about it. EAV: The association, I mean—just to be together— JST: Yeah. Yeah. We used to go away for two weeks and not see another human being. EAV: The children of today, this is what they need. I mean, association. JST: That’s right. I think so, too. He taught me more—one of the things he taught me was that in any organization, an organization of two people hunting and fishing, that each one of them has got to pull his own weight. EAV: Yes, sir. JST: You can’t let the other one do it. You’ve got to do enough of it. You’ve got to do your half, your share. And if you try to do a little more, it gives you an awful good feeling. I used to— when I finally got this [unintelligible 00:03:44], I used to try to do more than he did. And he’d laugh, and he would let me. [unintelligible 00:03:53], I got to do half of it, too. But it was a wonderful association. I think it did— EAV: But don’t you think today, sir, that the youth— 6 JST: He taught me a desire for accuracy, too, in shooting or fishing. Because he could lay a fly on that corner on your hat if he—anytime he wanted to. Well— EAV: Well, Admiral, after you won the state championship as quarterback, I mean, how—of course, you were using the [unintelligible 00:04:28] then? JST: Uh— 00:04:28 EAV: Not the T-formation—it was a [unintelligible 00:04:31] at that time, wasn’t it? JST: Yes. Actually, we didn’t win the state championship when I was on the team. I want to get that straight. It was a team that I had—they won the state championship after I left, after I graduated. So I don’t take any—well, I—just between you and me, I do take some credit for it because— EAV: Yes, sir. JST: …we had a good team going. But we came close to it in my last year, and they won it the next year. But— EAV: Well, Admiral, you’ve always had coordination, whether it be shooting or sports or whatever you had, it was always there. JST: Well, you know, I think most people who like to do things—have a spirit a competition. They want to excel. Even if they’re not competing with anybody, maybe the last score or against anything, they want to do it well. EAV: Yes, sir. JST: Even if nobody’s looking. [laughs] [Early aviation experiences] EAV: Then from there, of course, as I asked you earlier, sir, that— JST: Look, my name is Jimmy, Gene. EAV: Thank you, sir. JST: [unintelligible 00:05:55]. At least that’s my nickname. My real name is Jack. I’m a confusing character. [laughter] 7 UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I thought it was John. JST: It is. John Smith. EAV: John Smith, yeah. JST: But at home, my family calls me Jack. And in the Navy, I’ve always been Jimmy because of my brother. 00:06:14 UW: Good. EAV: But, you know, sir, the drive you had—and as I understand it, the—your first—now, you did repair a plane when you were—during your formative years. But you put a couple of willow branches— JST: Oh, yeah. EAV: …to get a plane together. But the— JST: I helped a guy who was a barnstormer. EAV: That’s right. JST: He came in this little field in Fordyce, Arkansas, and he—in order to get in, he had to scrape the tops of the trees.

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