Vol. 778 Thursday No. 108 9 February 2017

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Hospital Beds: Availability...... 1849 Religious Literacy ...... 1852 Brexit: Consumer Rights Policy ...... 1854 Crime: Firearms...... 1856 Child Refugees Private Notice Question...... 1858 Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders...... 1862 Richmond Burgage Pastures Bill [HL] Second Reading ...... 1862 University of London Bill [HL] Second Reading ...... 1862 Joint Committee on Human Rights Membership Motion...... 1862 Privileges and Conduct Committee Motion to Agree ...... 1863 Code of Conduct Motion to Resolve...... 1865 Commonwealth Development Corporation Bill Second Reading (and remaining stages) ...... 1865 Immigration (Health Charge) (Amendment) Order 2017 Motion to Approve...... 1897 Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Order 2017 Motion to Approve...... 1902 Brexit: Financial Services (European Union Committee Report) Motion to Take Note ...... 1904

Grand Committee Historical Statues and Memorials Question for Short Debate ...... GC 433 Mental Health: Young People Question for Short Debate ...... GC 449 Syria Question for Short Debate ...... GC 465 Sudan Question for Short Debate ...... GC 481 Education: Maintained and Independent Schools Question for Short Debate ...... GC 496 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2017-02-09

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2017, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1849 Hospital Beds: Availability [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Hospital Beds: Availability 1850

House of Lords single grouping takes responsibility for all the healthcare needs of a population, rather than it being split into Thursday 9 February 2017 different services. 11 am Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, integration is Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of St Albans. of course very important, but has the Minister ever met anybody in the health service who does not believe Hospital Beds: Availability that you will never fix the pressures in the health Question service until you put more money into social care? That means helping areas with low-value properties, 11.06 am not just those with high-value properties, such as in Asked by Lord Dubs leafy Surrey. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Lord O’Shaughnessy: The noble Baroness is of course estimate of the number of hospital beds currently quite right about the need for more money.I re-emphasise occupied by persons who could be discharged. that an additional £7 billion or more for social care is going to councils during this Parliament. Councils TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department have the ability to raise council tax, although the of Health (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con): My Lords, the leverage obviously varies from place to place. This is most recently published figures—for the last Thursday why the Better Care Fund was created—to provide of December 2016—reported that 6,191 people who extra help to areas that do not get the same income were occupying hospital beds were ready to return from council tax increases as the better-off places. home or transfer to another form of care.

Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister Lord Crisp (CB): My Lords, a year ago, the Royal for that reply. I am extremely puzzled because the College of Psychiatrists published a report which showed official NHS figures I have been looking at suggest that about one-fifth of adult mental health beds were that, in November, there were 200,000 people blocking occupied by people who were ready for discharge or beds. What is more significant, all the experts say that who should not have been admitted in the first place. the actual number of bed-blockers is three times the They were only admitted because there were no adequate size of the official figure. Bed-blocking means that facilities in the community. Could the Minister tell us people are not given the best possible care and beds what the figure is today and what is being done about are blocked for others who could be admitted. Surely mental health specifically? we have to solve this problem quickly. Lord O’Shaughnessy: The noble Lord is quite right Lord O’Shaughnessy: My Lords, the figures that the to raise the issue of mental health. I do not have the noble Lord is referring to are across the whole month. specific figure with me but I will write to him with it. He may be aware that new figures have been published We know that there has been a historic disparity today, which show that an increasing proportion of between the two services. This was recognised by the delayed transfers is due to the availability of social Prime Minister in a very important speech she gave a care packages. He will also know that this reflects the few weeks ago, setting out some of the ways in which changing nature of the patient demographic, which is the Government are doing more on this. However, becoming older and frailer. I agree with him that this there is clearly a lot more to do. needs addressing urgently, which is why the Government took action in the Autumn Statement to increase Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): What is the social care funding. We need to address the wide situation of people providing care at home on behalf variation in the rate of delayed discharge from local of councils? Many carers I know are called out at authority to local authority. As the Prime Minister has 10 or 11 at night to receive someone who has just been said, in the long run we need a more sustainable sent home from hospital. However, they are not really solution. trained themselves; they are trained only by the care agency. Is it not time that we provided them with Lord Skelmersdale (Con): My Lords, although all proper training, particularly as so many of them have Governments have made great strides in recent years come from the Philippines and other such places and in combining health and social care, is it not now we are not sure what the future holds for them? obvious that the only way to complete this process is to have a unified budget? Lord O’Shaughnessy: My noble friend is quite right that there has been an increasing prevalence of domiciliary Lord O’Shaughnessy: I thank my noble friend for care, which involves carers caring for patients in their that question. He is quite right that integration of own homes. Making sure that those patients can get services is the main thrust of policy and has been home at a good time that works for them and those under successive Governments. This is happening in who support them is clearly a critical part of dealing two ways. First, the Better Care Fund is pooling with this delayed discharge issue. health and social care budgets at local authority level in order to achieve what he is asking for. Also, NHS Baroness Wheeler (Lab): My Lords, the Minister England is producing sustainability and transformation was talking about care workers rather than carers. He plans, several of which are moving towards what is has focused on social care but Nuffield Trust research called an accountable care organisation, whereby a shows that the proportion of discharge delays due to 1851 Hospital Beds: Availability [LORDS] Religious Literacy 1852

[BARONESS WHEELER] Religious Literacy the unavailability of social care has grown by 84% in Question six years, but also that 57% of delays occurred because of problems in the NHS itself. This is because of a 11.14 am lack of local NHS community or rehabilitation services, and of the availability of home support therapies or Asked by Lord Singh of Wimbledon access to diagnostic and other services. Are STPs going To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps to be able to tackle this, given the scale of cuts that will they are taking to combat religious extremism and need to be made? Is the Minister confident that last to promote a cohesive society by enhancing religious year’s NAO report, which warned that the Department literacy at all levels of government. of Health and NHS England rely “too easily” on differing local circumstances as a “catch-all excuse” for not improving NHS performance, is being addressed? The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, the Government are Lord O’Shaughnessy: The noble Baroness is quite challenging all forms of extremism through our right that there is increasing pressure on the health counterextremism and Prevent programmes. We are service. There have been 3.5 million more hospital working closely with faith groups to understand the admissions in the last 10 years and 2.4 million more impact of policies and to improve religious literacy in A&E attendances in the last five years, so there is huge government. The Home Secretary and the Communities extra pressure. The number of acute beds has been Secretary hosted a round table for representatives of dropping for a long time but at a slower rate in more all faiths last November. recent years. Clearly, making sure that the right level of community care is available—step-down or interim Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB): I thank the noble care between hospital and home—will be incredibly Baroness for that Answer, but there are still important, particularly with a growing and ageing concerns. The Government paper on the hate crime population. action plan contained no mention of non-Abrahamic faiths. That suggests something about the religious Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, surely enough literacy there. Does the Minister agree that democracy is enough. Is it not high time for an unfettered look implies being attentive to the legitimate concerns of all again at the health service—bottom-up rather than sections of the community, not those of a single top-down, and therefore undertaken not by a royal religious or other majority? Does she further agree commission, perhaps, but by an independent body that teachings and practices that go against human such as the Academy of Medical Sciences? rights must be robustly challenged, but that we need to know something about what we are challenging before Lord O’Shaughnessy: A number of investigations we can do that? Programmes like Prevent cannot be and reviews into the future of health and social care effective without such knowledge. One final point is are taking place. I quite agree with the noble Lord that that I have put the basics of Sikh teachings on one side a royal commission is not necessary. What we all need of A4, and that can be done for other faiths as well. to do in government and through the arm’s-length Should that not be essential for religious literacy in bodies involved in healthcare is to make sure that we government departments? are providing the 2.7 million staff, who are doing a brilliant job every day in supporting our health and Baroness Williams of Trafford: I missed a little of care services, with the money and assistance they need the noble Lord’s question, but I think I have enough to to continue to deliver world-class healthcare. go on. He said that the hate crime action plan did not specifically refer to non-Abrahamic faiths, but the Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con): My Lords, does the tenets of the action plan cover points on hatred on Minister agree that it is not so much a question of old the basis of religious belief, disability, sexuality and people getting older, because old people have always so on. It is therefore implicit within it that, for got older; rather, the difference in the last 30 years is example, Sikh communities are included. As for the the grotesque increase in the number of young people understandingof religiousliteracywithinbothgovernment getting fatter and fatter? and wider society, both the Home Office and DCLG engage widely and often with faith communities. Shortly Lord O’Shaughnessy: There are some long-term after the referendum, I myself met people from different public health challenges, involving not just obesity but faiths, including Sikhs, in Manchester to discuss religious alcohol. But there is also good news: fewer people are literacy, the outcome of the referendum and the smoking. I think that sometimes, young people—I do corresponding hate crime attached to it. not know if I count any more— Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, will the Noble Lords: No. Minister confirm that there has been no violence and no torture, and no wars have been waged, in the cause Lord O’Shaughnessy: No? I do here. If we look at of humanism? what are sometimes called transgressive behaviours among the under-20s—obesity, smoking, drinking and Baroness Williams of Trafford: I do not think I can so on—they seem a lot healthier and more sensible accurately answer that without looking at my history than I was in my youth. books. 1853 Religious Literacy [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Consumer Rights Policy 1854

Baroness Warsi (Con): My Lords, can my noble Brexit: Consumer Rights Policy friend tell us whether the Prevent strand of the Question Government’s Contest strategy is part of their counterterrorism strategy or their counterextremism 11.21 am strategy? Can she also say whether there is a religious literacy element to the training given to Prevent Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town co-ordinators? If there is, would she be happy to place a copy in the Library? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to protect consumer rights after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, the central tenet of the Prevent strategy aims to protect young people who might be vulnerable to both extremism TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department and terrorist preaching either online or in their for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Prior communities. Actually, it is a protection mechanism, of Brampton) (Con): My Lords, we are working with a not a targeting mechanism, as I am sure my noble range of stakeholders to understand the impact that friend will be aware. It is a protective element to withdrawal from the EU will have on consumers. We help prevent some of the external forces to which will work to ensure the best possible outcome for UK our young people are subjected in a negative way consumers. Wherever practical, the great repeal Bill prevailing. will convert current EU law into domestic law to give consumers as much certainty as possible. The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, just three weeks ago I spent half a day in an immigration removal Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, centre and so gained an up-to-date insight into some the EU has been good for consumers: we have the of the complex and sensitive issues that are being dealt European health card—there are some 26 million in with there. Concerns continue to be raised about the the country—safe food and products, because of the level of religious literacy among some of the asylum European rapid alert system; lower mobile roaming caseworkers. Is the Minister content with the level of charges; and compensation for delayed flights. But training that they are getting in religious literacy and, despite what the Minister says, none of those can be if not, what can be done to improve it? entrenched in the great repeal Bill, because they depend on our negotiations with the remaining 27. Regrettably, Baroness Williams of Trafford: The right reverend consumer interest does not appear in the 12 negotiating Prelate raises a very important point about the detention principles in the Government’sWhite Paper.Will someone estate. Certainly an awful lot of time and effort has in the Minister’s department or another department gone into the training of staff in terms of the sensitivities undertake to set up the same meetings with consumer around LGBT detainees; in terms of his important reps as are taking place with industry, so that consumer point about religious literacy, I will go back and check interests can be embedded into our negotiations for on just what training is given in that area. our relationships with the EU 27 after we leave?

Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords— Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, the great repeal Bill will incorporate consumer protections in the European Union into UK domestic law, wherever it is practical. Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD): My Lords— Noble Lords may shake their heads at that but of course it is “wherever practical”; if we were to say that The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes we would incorporate it where it is impractical, the Park) (Con): My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal noble Baroness would be the first person to point it Democrats. out—this is a perfectly common-sense approach. In terms of ensuring that consumer interests are properly Baroness Hussein-Ece: Does the Minister agree that represented, my right honourable friend the Secretary last weekend’s Visit My Mosque initiative, which of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy hundreds—indeed, maybe thousands—took advantage is having regular meetings with consumer representatives of, was a very good and positive example of promoting and we will ensure that consumer interests are properly greater understanding, community cohesion and tolerance represented in the negotiations. in our society? Does she think that we should have more such initiatives from all faiths to bring people Lord Dykes (CB): My Lords, is not the Minister together and establish a more understanding and truthful being, unusually, a little complacent in his answers? dialogue? The total apparatus of EU protection and consumer laws is more extensive and robust than in any single Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Baroness member state, with very few exceptions. If it all has to raises a really good point about community cohesion. be unpicked through the very questionable repeal Bill There was a mosque event just near to me last process, it will take a long time anyway. If we end up weekend and I had reported back that it was incredibly bringing all these things back in—which we will have successful. In fact, the same community holds a summer to do—then we might as well stay in the single market fair, to which all their neighbours are invited and and under the consumer protection laws, instead of which is a great initiative—so yes, I would encourage favouring a dodgy view of national sovereignty that more. last existed in 1910. 1855 Brexit: Consumer Rights Policy [LORDS] Crime: Firearms 1856

Lord Prior of Brampton: I do not underestimate the Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, does complexity of the Brexit negotiations, which is why we my noble friend not think that it is very sad, and a all accept, I think, that the implementation of those counsel of despair, that with all the expertise in this negotiations will be phased over time. However, in a House and the other place, it is not possible for this number of areas of consumer protection the UK Parliament to devise a scheme that will protect the regulations are stronger than those in the EU. rights of British consumers?

Baroness Crawley (Lab): My Lords, online scams Lord Prior of Brampton: My noble friend is right: and internet fraud are rapidly increasing, as my colleagues there are legitimate concerns over such a big change. in trading standards know only too well. Will the However, we should be relatively optimistic that we Minister tell the House what protection will be offered can sort them out in the best interests of British to UK consumers buying faulty goods across borders consumers. once we are no longer part of the EU and no longer involved in developing the EU’s digital single market? Lord Hain (Lab): My Lords, will there need to be a separate agreement on air flights into European Union countries to replace the existing one within the single Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, the noble Baroness market, which allowed Ryanair,EasyJet, British Airways raises an interesting point. It is going to be difficult. —all the British carriers—to fly millions of people in I cannot foresee the outcome of the negotiations; all over the years cheaply, successfully and easily? Unless I can say is that we understand the issue she raises. a separate agreement is negotiated with the European We have already demonstrated through our support Union we will not be able to do that. for the alternative disputes resolution and the extra money we are putting into the Chartered Trading Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, there is such a Standards Institute that this is an issue that we take mutuality of interest in continuing the existing very seriously. arrangements that it would be very surprising if we could not negotiate an agreement. I cannot tell the Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, will the noble Lord whether we will need a separate agreement Minister say when he will share with the House what is to do that but I will write to him. practicable to be included in the great repeal Bill and what is not? Will he also share the result of the Crime: Firearms inquiries that he says the department has been conducting about the value of this, and has he, by any chance, Question read the previous Government’s balance of competences 11.29 am review, which went into great detail on this sector? Asked by Lord Harris of Haringey Lord Prior of Brampton: The noble Lord asks when To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light we will share the issues around practicalities. That will of recent seizures, what is their estimate of (1) the emerge during the negotiations. number of illegal firearms in circulation, and (2) the percentage of firearms illegally imported into Noble Lords: Oh. the United Kingdom that have been seized in the last year. Lord Prior of Brampton: Of course it will emerge over the next two years. It would be absurd for me to Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, I draw stand here to explain where all the issues that might attention to my policing interests and beg leave to ask arise over the next two years will arise. As the Prime the Question standing in my name on the Order paper. Minister has said, the Government will keep Parliament The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams fully informed of developments throughout the next of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, offences involving firearms, two years. excluding air weapons, have fallen by 31% since July 2010. The National Ballistics Intelligence Service regularly Lord Foster of Bath (LD): My Lords, the EU is assesses the volume of illegal firearms in the UK, but currently planning the digital content directive, which this information is operationally sensitive and is not will give EU-wide protection to consumers on digital suitable for release. The National Crime Agency and content. Unfortunately, the current draft conflicts with the police continue to conduct specific operations to UK consumer rights legislation. Since, after we leave, disrupt the threats posed by illegal firearms. we will have to continue to sell into the EU, can the Minister assure us that the Government are putting all Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful their resources into getting this right, to end the current for the Answer given by the Minister and intrigued by legal uncertainty? the fact that on 21 November, in response to another Question on this point asked by my noble friend Lord Lord Prior of Brampton: I can assure the noble Rosser, she said: Lord that we are doing everything we can to clarify the “Without doing the maths, I cannot give the noble Lord the situation. He mentioned the consumer rights legislation. figures off the top of my head. However, I will certainly write to The Consumer Rights Act is generally recognised by him with accurate figures”.—[Official Report, 21/11/16; col. 1724.] consumers here as an extremely good piece of legislation, I assume from the Answer she has just given that she and we will be working to have as much of a free cannot share the figures that she wrote to my noble market within Europe as we can. friend. Can I put it to her that, if there were 126 illegal 1857 Crime: Firearms [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Child Refugees 1858 arms seized in 2014-15—these are the figures she gave UK that are seized each year? Is she able to tell us on 21 November—445 seized in 2015-16 and 800 in whether we are seizing most firearms that are illegally just four weeks as a result of this joint exercise by the imported or only a very small percentage? counterterrorism police and the National Crime Agency, this is a situation in which there is an explosion of the Baroness Williams of Trafford: That is a very difficult problem of illegal firearms and that the Government question to answer in reference to the first Answer that should do a great deal more? I gave. However, I can give examples of seizures, for example through Operation Dragon Root, during a Baroness Williams of Trafford: What the noble Lord specific period of time. In the October operation, points out is not an explosion in the problem but a there were 282 confirmed arrests and the recovery of revelation in the solution, because that four-week operation 833 firearms, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Harris, showed us that a new approach to intelligence collection pointed out. There were also seizures of 169 other and sharing is the way forward. The operation that I weapons, 4,385 rounds of ammunition and over £575,000 think he is referring to—Operation Dragon Root—yielded worth of cash. excellent results. Baroness Warsi (Con): My Lords, the operation Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, most of the illegal that my noble friend referred to was indeed a success, firearms smuggled into the UK are from Europe. Can and I am sure that the whole House will pay tribute to the Minister explain how UK law enforcement agencies the police units that were involved. Will my noble can continue to exchange information and intelligence friend explain what thinking is being done in government with EU countries about gun smuggling after Brexit at the moment to reconcile what was an effective without complying with EU data protection laws, national operation against what is a much more localised which are set and regularly updated by the EU? What agenda of policing around the PCCs, who probably are the Government going to compromise on—security would not prioritise such operations? or sovereignty? Baroness Williams of Trafford: What my noble friend Baroness Williams of Trafford: I think that I have is referring to has not only a national element to it but déjà vu here, because the noble Lord asked me that the also an international element in terms of the multiagency other evening when we had a three and a half hour approach. Of course the NCA has regional operations debate on the subject of security and policing between as well, but in terms of keeping the country safe from the UK and the EU. As I explained then, and will a national and international point of view the national explain now, co-operation will be not just absolutely agencies are very often involved. key going forward but one of the top priorities for this country. Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): Is there not a distinction between a collector who holds illegal weapons and a Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con): Is the Minister criminal who holds illegal weapons, and do the stats aware that, in the past, amnesties have been used in that the Minister has produced actually draw that different parts of the United Kingdom but under very distinction? strong conditions, as in the context of weapons which have been used to commit a crime? Can any possible Baroness Williams of Trafford: There is most certainly amnesties be looked into with great care, as all the a difference between a collector and a criminal, and we circumstances need to be taken fully into account? discussed this at length in the Policing and Crime Bill. In terms of the arrests and the rounds of ammunition, Baroness Williams of Trafford: My noble friend is they certainly will be criminal activities. In terms of absolutely right that amnesties have been used in the the other weapons, there possibly is a distinction. I will past—most recently in Northern Ireland, if I am not try and disaggregate that for the noble Lord, although mistaken—and that great care needs to be taken around I will not promise as I did to the noble Lord, Lord such an approach. Rosser. Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, of the 800 seized firearms referred to by the noble Lord on the Labour Child Refugees Benches— Private Notice Question

Noble Lords: Lord Harris of Haringey. 11.36 am Asked by Lord Dubs Earl Attlee: It is my great friend the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. How many of those firearms To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have were seized from one registered firearms dealer? decided to close the scheme for unaccompanied child refugees under Section 67 of the Immigration Baroness Williams of Trafford: I have all sorts of Act 2016. facts and figures but I do not have that one, so I will write to my noble friend on that point. Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice. Lord Rosser (Lab): Does the Minister agree that figures on the numbers of illegal firearms seized each The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams year are not very meaningful without an estimate of of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, we have not closed the the percentage of firearms illegally imported into the scheme to transfer children under Section 67 of the 1859 Child Refugees [LORDS] Child Refugees 1860

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] a local authority but have had little response. Obviously Immigration Act. The announcement yesterday specified the Government are quite uninterested in taking in the total number of children that will be transferred more children. pursuant to Section 67, as required by the legislation. Over 200 children have already arrived in the UK Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, that is under this provision and more children will continue absolutely wrong. We have had informal expressions to be transferred from Europe up to the specified of interest, and if the noble Baroness has the names of number of 350. those individuals and church and community groups I Lord Dubs: My Lords, I must confess that I am encourage her to contact us so that we can get matters slightly puzzled because, if the Government say that in train. there is a specified number of children, then after that total has been reached the scheme has been closed. I Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con): My Lords, I remember—it was not long ago—that the Prime Minister, declare an interest as a member of the business task when she was Home Secretary, told me that the force that was set up after the Syrian donor conference Government were prepared to accept the amendment, to provide jobs and help families and the dispossessed and on the same day the then Immigration Minister in the region, to prevent them making the perilous said to me that the Government would accept the journey to Europe. The Government have to be letter and the spirit of that amendment. In arbitrarily congratulated on the work they are doing there. When closing down a scheme without any good reason for the number of 450 is reached, will the Government doing so, I believe that the Government are in breach still look at the discretionary clauses under Dublin of their own commitments. which allow countries to take in the most vulnerable people? I am particularly thinking of mothers with Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, the scheme babies and the victims of traffickers. is not closed. As the noble Lord said, we will be accepting up to the limit of 350 but at this point in Baroness Williams of Trafford: Yes, the people to time the scheme is not closed. whom my noble friend refers in the region are the Noble Lords: Oh! most vulnerable people on the globe. We do not close our doors to people who genuinely seek refuge in this Baroness Williams of Trafford: More children will country. Up to September last year, we gave asylum or come. The scheme is not closed. We have to appreciate, other forms of leave to 8,000 children. and I think noble Lords generally have appreciated, that the capacity of local authorities is limited. Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab): Will the Minister explain to us where the figure of 350 came from; what Noble Lords: Rubbish! consultations and calculations underpin it; and whether Baroness Williams of Trafford: Noble Lords might her request that others volunteer from the local authorities rubbish that but the capacity of local authorities is means that, if such representations and offers are limited. We have relied on their good will. It has been made, the Government will revise that figure of 350? an entirely voluntary approach from local authorities, and of course I encourage more local authorities that Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord asks think that they might have places to come forward. I a valuable question. We do not stop consulting local refer noble Lords to what this Government have done. authorities. Of course if local authorities or community Up to September 2016 we have provided in this country sponsorship groups were to come forward, we would refuge or other forms of leave for more than 8,000 children. certainly consider that. The figure of 350—in fact, it I am very proud of that. was 400—came from local authorities. We have revised it down to 350 because, if some of the family cases Lord Cormack (Con): Will my noble friend accept break down, the children will need local authority care that the concern that has been expressed this morning and we need some capacity to provide it. Our consultation is not confined to the other side of the House? with local authorities is ongoing. Noble Lords: Answer it! Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, the Minister Baroness Williams of Trafford: Sorry, I thought my will recall that last month I raised with her the noble friend might say something else. Yes, I accept disappearance of unaccompanied children. Figures the concern but I can only reiterate what I have from Europol that I first raised in your Lordships’ already said. House in June showed that 10,000 children had disappeared on the continent and that hundreds were Baroness Sheehan (LD): The implication of the disappearing here in the United Kingdom. One of the Government’s actions, if we go according to the letter reasons why I was proud to be a signatory to the of the amendment—Section 67 of the Act—is that amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, local authorities have reached the end of the road and was the disappearance of those unaccompanied children. have no further capacity. However, that reasoning is Last week, I sent the Minister a statement from ECPAT palpably faulty. There are many people who have UK, the organisation established to protect children, expressed an interest in helping, as well as churches, which said that it is shocking that the Home Office other faith groups and local authorities. I know several says it has no evidence. Where do we stand on these people who have indicated their willingness to help to missing unaccompanied minors? 1861 Child Refugees [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Joint Committee on Human Rights 1862

Baroness Williams of Trafford: I presume the noble Business of the House Lord refers to children both at home and abroad. Motion on Standing Orders Obviously, if a child is in Greece, Italy, France or wherever, it is the responsibility of that Government 11.47 am to safeguard that child. I said to the noble Lord that I Moved by Baroness Evans of Bowes Park did not have evidence of disappeared children in this country. That is not to say that in future that may not ThatStandingOrder40(1)(Arrangementof theOrder happen, but at this point we have had no representation Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 21 February from local authorities to saythat children are disappearing. to enable the debate on the second reading of the Obviously, if that were to be the case, we would follow European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill it up with some urgency. to resume before oral questions. Motion agreed. Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, yesterday my noble friend Lord Dubs in this Chamber asked the Government, Richmond Burgage Pastures Bill [HL] “to confirm the news that we have heard about the Government Second Reading intending to bring to an end the scheme under Section 67 of the Immigration Act”, 11.48 am namely, the Dubs amendment. In response, the Bill read a second time and committed to an Unopposed Government told the House: Bill Committee. “A Written Ministerial Statement will underscore that, far from doing that, Section 67 of the Act … stands”.—[Official Report, 8/2/17; col. 1715.] University of London Bill [HL] Why was no reference made yesterday by the Government Second Reading to any cap of 350 when that response was given to the 11.48 am very specific question from my noble friend Lord Dubs? Bill read a second time and committed to an Unopposed Can the Minister also respond to a question about Bill Committee. the Written Statement? It says: “Local authorities told us they have capacity for around 400 Joint Committee on Human Rights unaccompanied asylum-seeking children until the end of this Membership Motion financial year”. What capacity have local authorities told the Government 11.48 am they have for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker in the 1917-18 financial year on the basis that the current level of government funding is continued? That Baroness O’Cathain be appointed a member of the Select Committee. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My noble friend referred the House to the Written Ministerial Statement Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, I have in which the figure of 350 was iterated; clearly, the had some correspondence with the Clerk of the WMS was laid not long before Questions began. I Parliaments. I had not realised that at some point this cannot remember the second part of the noble Lord’s House agreed that any mistakes that are made in question. relation to room bookings represent a breach of the Code of Conduct. In other words, if a Member books a room and is not present for the whole of the period Lord Rosser: I am happy to repeat it because it is of that booking, they are then in breach of the Code a quote from the Government’s own Written Statement: of Conduct and can be reported to the Standards and “Local authorities told us they have capacity for around Privileges Committee. 400 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children until the end of This is quite astonishing and I do not know when it this financial year”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/2/17; col. 10WS.] got through, how it got through, and whether other noble Lords realised what was happening. I think we What capacity have local authorities told the should be far more careful when we look at these Government they have for unaccompanied asylum-seeking Motions. We should have an explanation of why they children in the next financial year, namely 1917-18, on are being put forward from whoever is moving the the basis that the current level of government funding Motion—whether it is the Senior Deputy Speaker, the is continued? Chief Whip, the Leader of the House or whoever—so that we know exactly the implications. It would be Baroness Williams of Trafford: I think the noble quite astonishing if, just because of an inadvertence in Lord means 2017-18. Obviously, as I have said to relation to room bookings, a Member was in serious noble Lords, the Government are in constant consultation breach of the code. Could that be looked at again? with local authorities on a range of things, including this. The scheme is entirely voluntary. We do not want The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): to force local authorities to do things that they may Could I say to the noble Lord, with the utmost courtesy, not have the capacity to fulfil. Children are of paramount that this is nothing to do with the Motion that I am importance. proposing just now, which is about a change to the 1863 Joint Committee on Human Rights[LORDS] Privileges and Conduct Committee 1864

[LORD MCFALL OF ALCLUITH] However, I go back to the point that where there membership of the Joint Committee on Human Rights? are breaches of conduct, and Members do things that However, as always, outwith the Chamber, I will have are clearly unacceptable to the House and bring it into the most fruitful engagement with the noble Lord at disrepute, of course what the Senior Deputy Speaker any time. says is absolutely right. But, as I say, the issue of minor breaches in relation to the booking and use of Motion agreed. rooms has come to my attention, and I have had correspondence with the Clerk about it. For instance, Privileges and Conduct Committee if you book a room and hold a press conference in it Motion to Agree when you were not supposed to hold one there, or if you book a room for an hour and you leave halfway 11.50 am through, that is a breach of the Code of Conduct and Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker you can be reported to the Committee for Privileges and Conduct. That seems to me to be using a That the 5th Report from the Select Committee sledgehammer to crack a nut. It should be dealt with (ProcessforpublishingCommissionerreports;Commissioner in some other way, not as a breach of the Code of and police investigations; Minor amendments to the Conduct. I do not know when it slipped through—these Code) (HL Paper 99) be agreed to. things go through on the nod, and sometimes you get confused about what is going through and when. Can The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): the Senior Deputy Speaker take this particular point My Lords, this report contains various recommendations back to the committee to have another look at it? for changes to the Code of Conduct for Members of the House of Lords and the Guide to the Code of Conduct. The Senior Deputy Speaker: I thank the noble Lord First, it recommends a more streamlined process for for his eloquent repetition of his previous point. Yes, I publishing reports from the Commissioner for Standards will look at that and take it back. I repeat my willingness when she finds that a Member did not breach the to have a discussion with him outside this Chamber. Code of Conduct or where remedial action has been agreed. In those cases, it is recommended that her Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): Perhaps I can follow report and evidence should normally be published up the statement that the Senior Deputy Speaker only on the parliamentary website and not sent to the made. He stated that the inquiry that was carried out Committee for Privileges and Conduct. This is similar by the commissioner—as I understand it—could be to the process in the House of Commons. The carried out coterminously by the police. In other words, commissioner would have discretion to submit a report both inquiries could be taking place at the same time, to the committee if a case involved a particularly subject to the criteria that the noble Lord referred to. serious allegation or if it gave rise to matters of wider Does that mean that there could be, during the course interest or relevance. In these instances, the Committee of an inquiry, discussions between the police and the for Privileges and Conduct would report the case to commissioner about a matter that was the subject of the House. an investigation? To what extent would that be then The second proposal is that the commissioner should allowed to influence an investigation by the commissioner? be able to continue an investigation into an alleged The Senior Deputy Speaker: It would allow the breach of the code alongside a police investigation. police to continue their investigation, but there has Under the current guidance, the commissioner has to been experience in the past where the commissioner suspend her investigation whenever the police are has had to pause an investigation because of a concurrent investigating a related complaint. The committee proposes police investigation. In one case—I am trying to remember that the commissioner should be able to continue an off the top of my head—that was 16 months. The investigation in those circumstances but would not commissioner was not able to go back it for that time. finalise a report until the criminal process had concluded. So the proposal is that the commissioner looks at the This would allow her to take into account any relevant issue and collects evidence and when the police report issue arising from that process. Under the proposed they have a fresh understanding of what has been new guidance, the commissioner would always suspend happening can pursue it further. Previously the her investigation if the related proceedings become commissioner had to suspend their investigation, perhaps sub judice. for 16 months, and then go back and find that the Finally,the report proposes several minor amendments information was a bit dated and that people could not to the code and the guide to reflect developments in recall things as sharply. For that reason we discussed practice and to clarify uncertainties. I beg to move. this with the commissioner and the new proposal was put forward. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, I sincerely apologise to the Lord Speaker, to the Senior Deputy Viscount Simon (Lab): I have just one further question, Speaker and to the House for raising my point under purely for clarification, following my noble friend’s the wrong heading. However, if the noble Lord had question. If a room is booked for one hour and the the powers that I think he ought to have as Lord meeting takes five minutes, does the Member have to Speaker, he could have corrected me immediately. I stay there for 55 remaining minutes? would have sat down and would not have spoken inappropriately.We are now on the appropriate Motion The Senior Deputy Speaker: I would not think so. If and I thank the Senior Deputy Speaker for introducing anything, common sense prevails in this House—and I it, which I appreciate very much indeed. will make sure that that is undertaken. 1865 Privileges and Conduct Committee [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1866

Lord Rooker (Lab): If it is no longer accepted that far outstrips what can be funded through traditional police inquiries should always take precedence, could aid-funded programmes and public finance. This is the Senior Deputy Speaker confirm whether the police where the CDC comes in. are satisfied with this change? The CDC was founded back in 1948 and has enjoyed support from successive Governments. It is wholly The Senior Deputy Speaker: As far as I know, yes, owned by the UK Government and is a development but I will investigate that further and I will write to the finance institution, deploying patient public capital to noble Lord on that point. achieve an objective of doing good while not losing Motion agreed. money. The CDC has a portfolio of £4 billion invested in more than 1,200 businesses in more than 70 countries. Code of Conduct In 2015, businesses backed by the CDC helped to Motion to Resolve create 1,030,000 new jobs in Africa and southern Asia. Over three years, these businesses have generated more 11.57 am than $7 billion in tax revenues to the countries in Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker which CDC has invested. To resolve that the Code of Conduct for Members The CDC invests long term to achieve development of the House of Lords be amended as follows: impact. It has a higher risk appetite and can take a more patient view of financial returns than private In paragraph 19, in the second sentence, leave investors, but by demonstrating that responsible investing out “goes” and insert “is normally published only in difficult markets can be commercially viable, it on the Commissioner’s webpages. The Commissioner helps to crowd in the private finance that the poorest has discretion to submit a report in such instances.” countries desperately need. Leave out paragraphs 26 and 27 and insert: In 2015, the CDC helped to mobilise an additional “The Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct keeps $832 million of capital from private investors. Over the Code of Conduct and the Guide to the Code of the years, it has made ground-breaking investments in Conduct under regular review.Recommended changes unproven markets, planting the first seeds for industries are reported to the House and take effect when that have since become mainstream, such as tea exports agreed by the House.” in Kenya and mobile telecoms in Africa. As an investor, the CDC sees the potential of the people of a country Motion agreed. rather than its problems. The NAO completed a value-for-money study of Commonwealth Development Corporation the CDC last year.Its report highlights the transformation Bill that the CDC has undergone over the past five years, Second Reading (and remaining stages) following the agreement of a new strategy and investment policy with DfID in 2012. The CDC now invests only 11.58 am in Africa and south Asia—two regions that account Moved by Lord Bates for 80% of the world’s poor. It is the only development financial institution to have this narrow a geographical That the Bill be now read a second time. focus. It now targets the sectors that create the most (Money Bill) Relevant documents: 14th and jobs in an economy. CDC investments in the energy 15th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee sector are providing the investment needed to improve access and power economic growth in Africa. In the The Minister of State, Department for International financial sector, the CDC has enabled microfinance Development (Lord Bates) (Con): My Lords, this is a institutions and retail banks to advance loans to support short, two-clause Bill. It is a necessary piece of enabling small businesses in agriculture and manufacturing in legislation to ensure that the CDC is able to continue south Asia. investing in the world’s poorest countries to create While the CDC continues to invest through funds, jobs, support local businesses and stimulate economic it has now built up its capacity to make direct investments development. No country can defeat poverty and end and do debt deals alongside equity.It has also tightened aid dependency without sustained economic growth controls on costs and cut average salaries by over and a thriving private sector. Strong profitable businesses 25% over five years. It has become a leader among its are needed to create better jobs and generate the tax peers in transparency: it was the first development revenues required to deliver improved public services. financial institution to sign up to the International There is, however, a huge unmet demand for capital Aid Transparency Initiative and provide full information in developing countries. In the poorest and most fragile on the name and location of all its investments. countries, there is a long way to go to create the right The Bill is focused on one issue only: raising the conditions for investors to have the confidence to meet limit on the level of financial support that we can and fill this gap. provide to the CDC under the CDC Act. The Bill is In 2015, the UN agreed the sustainable development needed because the current limit, set 17 years ago, has goals, which are the focus of the Department for been reached. The Bill will raise the cumulative financial International Development through its UK aid strategy. limit by £4.5 billion to £6 billion. It also introduces a The financing required to achieve these goals is estimated delegated power to raise the limit further via statutory to be $2.5 trillion dollars a year through to 2030. This instrument, to an upper limit of £12 billion. 1867 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1868

[LORD BATES] issue of the development of human capacity. When I To be clear, the Bill is not a commitment to provide visited, the staff took great pleasure in telling me how this level of financial support to the CDC, nor is it a they were developing hands-on capacity. target to be achieved in a set timeframe. No new capital will be provided to the CDC without a new That was important to see in the context of the strategy and business case setting out the market Conservative Party’s own record. I was frankly rather demand, value for money and how development impacts impressed in the 1960s, when the Conservative are to be achieved. Both will be published and Ministers Government took the initiative in setting up government held to account in the usual way. Furthermore, after machinery to meet third-world commitments. They ministerial approval the CDC would be able to draw called the department the Department of Technical down the capital only when needed in response to Cooperation. Indeed, I do not mind telling the House market demand. that I spent a certain amount of time at our party headquarters trying to argue that it was a good title; if The Bill passed its stages in the other place unopposed, we were going to have a great emphasis—as we did, reflecting the cross-party nature of its objectives, but thank God—on the central role of overseas development not without careful scrutiny. In Committee in the in our programmes, then we ought to look seriously at other place, expert witnesses gave oral evidence and the title the Conservatives had used. I never felt that several noble Lords—including the noble Lords, Lord the Ministry of Overseas Development quite got to Boateng and Lord Stern—provided helpful written the heart of the concept as the notion of technical submissions which have been taken into account. co-operation did. I saw the CDC as fulfilling the spirit There was a healthy debate in the other place, that says, “Nothing will succeed unless we are developing responded to by my honourable friend Rory Stewart, human capacity”. but I would argue that that genuine interest and concern is best addressed through the CDC’s strategy rather I am therefore rather sad that, given the history of than via primary legislation. Work is under way to the CDC, it has now gone down the road of becoming, finalise the CDC’s new five-year strategy. It is critically in effect, just another merchant bank. It seems to me important to get this right and address the issues that the emphasis, originality and creativity that was raised during the Bill’s passage by NGOs, Members of there has been lost. I do not believe that responsibility both Houses and the National Audit Office. for this development can be laid entirely at the feet of the party opposite. Whether it was inadvertent, or We need to capture better the full development however it happened, we were not as vigilant on this impact of the CDC’s investments. We need to ensure point as we should have been. that the CDC’s policy on the use of offshore financial centres is reviewed regularly and meets the OECD’s The Minister has explained the origins of the Bill. high standards in this area, and that it pilots new It is true that in the informed constituency in this approaches to deepen development impact still further. country—a very real and good one on these matters— The passage of the Bill is an important step to there is and has been a certain amount of concern. enable the CDC to continue playing a central role in Here I declare an interest as a former director of the delivery of the UK’s international development Oxfam. We are well blessed to have the quality of objectives: to boost economic growth and eradicate NGOs we have operating in this sphere, and we should extreme poverty by 2030. It complements other approaches take their concerns very seriously. through which the UK is playing a leading role in the What are those concerns? Some are centred on the international development market, including in our real development impact of the CDC as it is today and responses to humanitarian disasters, global epidemics whether recent reforms have adequately improved its and pandemics. effectiveness. It continues to face challenges relating The CDC is a great British organisation with a to transparency, monitoring and reporting on its proven track record and a clear development focus. development impact, as well as on routing its investments The Bill will help the CDC to continue its pioneering through tax havens. The Bill provides us with our first work, creating opportunities and bringing hope and opportunity since 1999 to shape the legislative framework opportunity to the poorest people in the world. It is an for government oversight of the CDC and update it to institution of which British taxpayers can be rightly clarify the purpose of public funding for the CDC, a proud. I beg to move. suitable level for future public funding and the conditions under which it is to be provided and utilised; how the 12.06 pm CDC will address the UK Government’s priorities for Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister aid, such as transparency,value for money and achieving for that clear introduction to the Bill. I am glad he is in development results; and how the CDC can improve the post that he is in, because he is a man who has its investment standards—for example, on the use of taken our responsibilities in this sphere very seriously tax havens. during his life. I am also very glad indeed that the More specifically, concerns have been centred on noble Viscount, Lord Eccles,will be speaking in the debate, an overconcentration on the higher rates of returns on as he made a distinguished contribution to the history its investments. A focus on large formal enterprises, of the CDC when he was leading it. the use of narrowly defined impact indicators, and I declare an interest because, for a short while in the minimal investment in sectors such as agriculture and mid-1970s, I was the sponsoring Minister for the CDC manufacturing raise concerns about its development and I took great interest in it. What I liked about the impact for ordinary human beings. The National Audit CDC in those days was that it took very seriously the Office’s recent review of the CDC reported that it, 1869 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1870

“remains a significant challenge for CDC to demonstrate its judged until perhaps decades later. The constant pressure ultimate objective of creating jobs and making a lasting difference to produce immediate evidence of impact sometimes to people’s lives in some of the world’s poorest places”. distorts lasting effective development. I ask the Minister That observation cannot be cast lightly aside. to consider these matters seriously and I look forward As for transparency, the CDC was assessed as poor, greatly to his reply. with 22.5%, in the Aid Transparency Index, and there have been no major improvements in its transparency 12.18 pm since then—or none that I can detect. I acknowledge Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, I, too, thank that the Government and the CDC itself take these the Minister for introducing this Bill. It is a privilege, concerns seriously but, as late as 2013, 75% of the as ever, to follow the noble Lord, Lord Judd, with his CDC’s investments were routed through jurisdictions long commitment to development and huge experience that feature in the top 20 of Tax Justice Network’s in this area. The CDC has, of course, played an financial secrecy index. important part in our development efforts in recent During deliberations on the Bill in the other place, years, particularly since its remit was redrawn in the Ministers failed to provide a clear and robust case for early days of the coalition and under the stewardship why the CDC required the level of additional funding of its current CEO, Diana Noble. It is vital that we and whether it had the capacity and opportunities to promote economic development. That is what will invest it effectively. This therefore remains a major transform societies and pull people out of poverty. We question, especially as in DfID’s business case for the have seen that around the world. Investment in the £735 million in funding committed to the CDC in green revolution in agriculture in India was later to 2015 it stated that the CDC had assessed that it had underpin India’s growth in other parts of its economy. the capacity to invest an additional £1 billion and The CDC, refocused on poorer countries and frontier would require additional funding from DfID only markets, has helped in that regard. in 2019. Even before that refocusing, it has been a significant I conclude by putting specific questions to the contributor. A key investment, of course, was that in Minister. I do not want to overdo it, but I repeat the M-Pesa in Kenya, to which the Minister referred, points because I have very great respect for the present kick-starting a transformative method of ensuring Minister and I am sure he will take these questions that the un-banked were brought within the financial seriously. First, why have the Government introduced sector. I know that the CDC later regretted that it had the Bill before publishing the CDC’s investment strategy no equity stake in the project given the profits now for 2017-21? Why does the Bill allow the Government flowing in Kenya and elsewhere, which is a shame. to utilise the ceiling of £6 billion to £12 billion for When it is criticised for supporting some developments, funding the CDC, given that in 2015 it assessed it it is important to look behind that work and see what could invest an additional £1 billion for the Government? skills are being imparted or jobs created. I have seen Why have the Government not included in the proposed what it looked to do in Nepal and northern Nigeria in Bill standards that the CDC should meet in order to very difficult markets, but finding markets elsewhere address the Government’s commitment to transparency, easier. Where the CDC leads, it is often then easier to value for money and tracking development results, as secure other private investment, which is especially well as on issues such as the CDC’s use of tax havens important where it is operating in the truly difficult for its investments? How will the CDC be asked to frontier markets. improve its functioning and contribution to development But we are looking at the CDC as it is now, and results as a condition of future funding increases? even here there have been criticisms as to whether it is How will the CDC be asked to improve its transparency sufficiently poverty-focused, for example. I recall the and reduce the volume of investments it routes through concern in the 2000s about where its focus was. Was it tax havens as a condition of future funding? Finally, any different, it was asked, from other private equity how have DfID’s investment plans for the CDC been businesses as it invested in the growing markets of informed by assessing other options for investing these China and India? Andrew Mitchell and Alan Duncan, resources and comparing their value for money and with their experience in both development and banking, potential for development impact? did much to refocus what the CDC did. Diana Noble, As somebody who worked in this sphere for a good as its chief executive, has transformed the organisation deal of my life and who continues to work in an most impressively and there is a constant check on honorary capacity in many ways since becoming a how transformative it is in some of the most challenging Member of this House, I have difficulty with the term places. But, of course, she is standing down. “development impact”. I believe the real heart of the When I was DfID Minister, I was impressed that challenge of our co-operation with communities across the CDC had not had its funds topped up in decades the world is their empowerment. It is about their because it had so successfully reinvested what it was taking control themselves. It is about enhancing their earning. There was then a relatively small top-up, capacity. “Impact” suggests it is us bringing something certainly small compared with what we are looking at to the country, which we are then evaluating. Our here. Did the CDC ask for this increase, and what does evaluation needs to concentrate far more on how the it plan to do in terms of attracting staff to manage local community appreciates and benefits from what such increases? What we see here causes me considerable happens. concern, especially as the Bill enables the Secretary of My other point, and it is not a popular one in the State to increase the amount yet further by secondary age of the market, is that in real human terms very legislation. That does not seem wise because I also often the real effect of this co-operation will not be remember the controversy when there were moves to 1871 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1872

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] rising inequality and the threat this poses to economic sell the CDC off, early in Labour’s years in government, and political stability, the Bill comes at an opportune and Actis was spun off. Those involved, largely employed time. by the CDC, profited enormously. Suppose that down Clearly, addressing poverty is critical to addressing the track the Government decided to sell off the CDC. global inequality. We have moved from the millennium Would we not regret having filled its coffers? It would development goals to the sustainable development certainly make it more saleable. goals and the role of the private sector has been Suppose we were to have a Secretary of State recognised as a central part of achieving this agenda. who thinks that this should be the main vehicle for aid Many of the major development initiatives in Africa money? There is plenty of scope for that. What about have come from foreign aid agencies, local and all the vital areas that DfID needs to support if we are international NGOs and publicly funded multilateral to improve human development in the poorest countries? financial institutions. So I wish to focus my few remarks Human development underpins the ability of all in support of this Bill on the key role that the CDC economies to grow. To meet the SDG of eradicating has played and continues to play in some of the most extreme poverty by 2030, leaving no one behind, that challenging countries in Africa. growth needs to be underpinned and to be equitable, including women and girls as well as men and boys. During the last 15 years, the growing Africa-focused private equity community has had a unique opportunity Suppose the Secretary of State altered the terms on to play its role in what is becoming a development which the CDC invested? What then? It is not at all relationship. Private equity has been good for African clear that its funds would be used for addressing the economic development. It has helped to promote a SDGs as the ODA commitment surely means we must healthy business sector, as well as creating jobs and do. The Minister will know as well as I do how widely alleviating political instability, while taking pressure drawn the ODA is, but up until now DfID has been off Governments to be universal problem solvers. commendably focused on the poorest. Suppose that Here, certainly, the CDC has played its role in the changed? It is all very well saying that the CDC would development of the private equity industry, particularly have to produce a robust business case, but suppose in in the last two decades. It was an early investor in the the future the need for business cases was dispensed 1990s, while the DFIs still focused on debt. Since then, with? They have existed in their present extended form the number of private equity funds has grown from only for less than five years, and even then, having around a dozen Africa-focused funds managing some gone through a number of them when I was a DfID $1 billion, to well over 200 firms managing over $30 billion. Minister, I can say that they are labour intensive and The CDC has played an incredibly important role in not always as useful as one might want them to be. poverty reduction, working with these private sector Suppose the business case continued, but the companies and investors to create sustainable growth parameters that the Secretary of State laid down changed. in its target countries. For example, although in order to count as ODA, As the Minister mentioned in his introductory benefit needed to be seen in developing countries, it comments, the CDC is now a transformed institution. was decided that a close second must be to benefit From 2012, when the CDC invested some £200 million British investors. The Minister will know exactly what a year in a broad geography from Latin America to I mean. What then? south Asia to Africa, with a staff complement of 50, it This Bill hugely increases the potential capital for has now well over 250 staff. It is investing and will the CDC to £6 billion, with the Secretary of State able continue to invest more than £1.2 billion a year, focused to increase it further to £12 billion by regulations on Africa and south Asia. alone. This is quite an increase from £1.5 billion. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that I realise that we have no chance to amend this Bill, the CDC has become just another investment bank. as it will go through all its stages here today. Much as I There have been some notable success stories. While admire what the CDC is doing, I do not think that the humanitarian response to tackling the Ebola crisis issuing this relatively blank cheque for a Secretary of in Sierra Leone, Liberia and Guinea was very successful State or for a future CDC under a new CEO is wise. and essential, the CDC made a valuable contribution The noble Lord says that the CDC will have a new in rebuilding many affected businesses by providing strategy. Surely those in the Commons and the noble much-needed SME loans. As the Brookings Institution Lord, Lord Judd, are right in saying that we should rightly mentioned in its recent Foresight Africa report, have seen that first. with many millions of young Africans entering the I know that the Minister will have the situation labour market every year, job creation remains a top of the poorest people in the world in his mind. I agenda item. Here I agree entirely with the noble look forward, therefore, to hearing what he has to Baroness, Lady Northover, that human resource say in response to my concerns and what safeguards development must be a core focus. will be built in, in terms of scrutiny of what the CDC The potential threat of climate change has put does. many parts of Africa at risk of disasters such as floods and droughts. Many Governments continue to face 12.26 pm corruption and violence, and global political uncertainty Lord St John of Bletso (CB): My Lords, I, too, has complicated peacekeeping efforts, aid disbursement warmly welcome this Bill. When the new world order and overall investment. Among the many challenges appears to be more disorder and one of the key facing sub-Saharan Africa are not just unemployment themes of the World Economic Forum in Davos is but lack of infrastructure, food insecurity, inadequate 1873 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1874 access to education and healthcare and, of course, to register. I greatly welcome the Bill and wish to clean water, in all of which the CDC is playing a key speak out in support of it and the CDC. What it has role. Often the public sector is ill equipped to tackle done over the last five years or so is no mean achievement, these challenges, and this is where the private sector making successful investments in parts of the world can play a critical role. The CDC, with its well-respected that are difficult to operate in. It has been a civilised 70-year track record, has made a very important and professional body; references to merchant banks contribution in identifying and nurturing management are not entirely fair, because it has focused on need teams and companies that have provided and continue just as much as on commercial attractions. to provide solutions to many of these problems. The CDC has also become very capable of investing Sub-Saharan Africa suffered one of its worst years and managing third-party funds in Africa and India. I in terms of foreign direct investment last year. This hope that that may develop as a new part of its was due partly to the fall in commodity prices, particularly business. As I understand it, it operates in three separate the oil price, as well to other concerns, including those parts. There has been private equity investment, largely of international investors about collapsing local currencies, in east Asia and Africa, amounting to some $3 billion. and was exacerbated by high levels of corruption and A professional fee of, I think, 0.25% is paid for the lack of accountability.Although technology has continued management of those assets. The Bill will significantly to transform the continent with the introduction of increase the scope here. The second area has been broadband and many other innovative, transformational direct equity investment, again in south Asia and technologies, the many challenges that Africa faces are Africa, of the order of $1.2 billion, and thirdly debt unlikely to be solved in the short to medium term. investment of some $400 million. As has been pointed This will obviously impact negatively on the lives of out, the increase in the size of those investments over millions of the poorest people. That is why it is important the last five years has arisen from their success rather that the CDC continue to provide much-needed capital than from additional funding. and mobilise other international private capital to The Bill is about significant increases in funding for co-invest in well-run businesses with high levels of the CDC—an initial increase from £1.5 billion to integrity and high social and environmental standards. £6 billion, and then a route is provided with delegated I stress the importance of long-term capital in this powers for the Secretary of State to go up to £12 billion. regard. These projects can range from building schools That is a substantial increase, but it is not widely to the establishment of hospitals,agribusinesses,renewable realised that the CDC and its associates are wholly energy, ports and logistical infrastructure. While these government-owned. This is not the Government funding are all needed in most countries in sub-Saharan Africa, third-party entities; they are funding another limb of the CDC has not shied away from going to some of government to operate effectively on a commercial the most challenging areas. Here I mention some of basis. It is still a government entity. the agribusinesses in which the CDC has invested in northern Nigeria, which have had a transformational I am a member of the Delegated Powers and impact on many of the people there. Regulatory Reform Committee,which, as noble Lords will be aware, has opined that the Bill inappropriately A good example of the CDC’swork is the development delegates power without demonstrating the need for in Virunga in Eastern Congo. The CDC has helped to it. Personally, I have mixed views. I understand the construct a hydropower plant that has already transformed point but I repeat my own: that this is government the lives of many of those in the area who were living advancing funds to another part of itself. I tend to in desperate conditions, through providing jobs and think that is justifiable, and that the case for increasing training to former child soldiers who became socially the funding has also proven itself, so I do not see the excluded adults. This will in all likelihood have an need for primary legislation to authorise the additional added benefit of reducing the erosion of natural resources funding. in the parks, which includes the rampant problem of wildlife poaching. The key point is that the CDC’s record, particularly over the last five years, stands for itself. I remember I warmly support the Bill, which provides much-needed times when there was criticism of it, and it is extremely long-term additional funding to the CDC, but as it is a heartening to see how successful it has been, in very money Bill that will not be deliberated on further in difficult territory. your Lordships’ House, it is important that a firm business plan is in place outlining the medium and long-term road map for the CDC, with appropriate 12.39 pm checks and balances. In this regard I was reassured by Lord Boateng (Lab): My Lords, I declare my interest the Minister’s comments in introducing the Bill. as chair of the Africa Enterprise Challenge Fund. As Finally, I acknowledge the leadership, commitment, such, I have had the opportunity to see the work of the dedication and vision of the CDC’s chief executive, CDC in support of agribusiness in Africa and renewable Diana Noble, who will sadly retire in June this year, energy. I am bound to say that I welcome this Bill; I and pay tribute to the able chairmanship of Graham welcome, too, the Minister’s championing of the CDC Wrigley. within the department. I think that it will benefit from his attention. Frankly, if truth be told, the CDC has not in the past benefited from any ministerial champion 12.34 pm at all, which has been part of its problem. The noble Lord Flight (Con): My Lords, I congratulate the Baroness, Lady Northover, happily gave it some of her noble Lord, Lord Bates, on his excellent introduction attention but, certainly in my time in government, it to the Bill. I declare my interests as set out in the must be said that it did not have any champions. 1875 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1876

[LORD BOATENG] can give it. If you were simply applying market judgments We must also recognise that, at one time under the and the bottom line to support for banks that work Labour Government, the CDC was being fattened up with SMEs, you would not be able to raise capital. The to be privatised—that was the reality. It was therefore CDC, with its focus, is able to do so. given a mandate of making as much money as it The CDC needs to be encouraged to focus on and could, but no target at all in relation to its contribution address market failure. That, after all, is the justification to the eradication of poverty or to development. We for putting public money into it—I cannot think of have to be frank: we need to learn the lessons of the any other. We are putting public money into something past in order to ensure that we do not repeat the that addresses the failures of the market so that markets mistakes of the past in the future. The good news is can work better for the poor,and to support development. that, for the past five years, a process of reform of the As all sides of the House agree, the long-term and CDC has been under way, which has seen a renewed medium-term solution to Africa’s problems does not focus on the reduction of poverty and is to be warmly lie in overseas development assistance but in the welcomed. development of a sustainable private sector and the My noble friend Lord Judd, whose knowledge of capacity within Africa to generate, through tax revenues, these matters is, in my experience, unparalleled, was sufficient money to do all the things that we expect the exactly on point when he suggested that, going forward, state to do in our own country. We want enabling it is absolutely vital that the CDC continues to focus states; we certainly want states that encourage and on empowerment and enablement on the African support a private sector that can create wealth and continent; ensuring that small and medium-sized business provide employment. That ought to be the focus of can grow and link to global markets; and improving the CDC in the future. value chains across the continent. This is about saying I ask the Minister to ensure that this House has an that we will stand alongside Africa as it develops its opportunity to discuss the future strategy of the CDC— own agribusinesses and manufacturing capacity,because that an investment strategy is not adopted without it is in these areas that there is currently a marked consideration of views from all sides of this House— deficit on that continent. because, as today’s speakers list shows, there is real Real gains have made in the past decades in terms expertise in the Chamber. That expertise can encourage, of economic growth—six or seven of the top 10 fastest- support and spread the word about the importance of growing economies in the world now are to be found investment in this area, and all that investment can do. in Africa, which is a tribute to entrepreneurs there. I end on this note: we are in a challenging time for There have been vast improvements in terms of global security, and the best protection for any of us in governance—the recent successful transitions of power the world is job creation. Africa has the fastest-growing in both Nigeria and Ghana are examples. Across the population of young people in the world, and if there continent, there has also been a renewed focus on the are young people in Africa who do not really have an part of African Governments on creating enabling opportunity to gain sustainable livelihoods, whether environments in which it is possible for business to in urban or rural areas—Africa also has the fastest flourish. rate of urbanisation in the world—they will fall prey This creates a real opportunity for the CDC to get to those who would exploit them for their own purposes. alongside those businesses. One particular aspect of In northern Nigeria we see a classic example of this. Africa’s development on which I seek to concentrate— Boko Haram exists because young people feel disaffected, including the potential role of the CDC—is the role cut off from relevant educational opportunities and that small and medium-sized enterprises can and must the prospect of getting sustainable livelihoods. The play in the continent’s development. In Africa, they great work that the CDC is doing in that area—creating contribute to around 40% of GDP and to some 50% of real job opportunities with real employment and providing employment overall. In some sectors, their level of job real added value—is a classic example of the sort of creation can be even higher. For example, informal response that we ought to be making to today’schallenges. and formal SMEs together account for about three- I wish the CDC all the very best with its task and hope quarters of total employment in manufacturing. However, that the Minister will continue to champion it in his the reality is that it is very difficult indeed for small department. and medium-sized enterprises in Africa to obtain funding from the banks. That is because in the main the banks 12.49 pm are risk-averse and do not understand the sectors—the Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): My Lords, I am agrisector in particular—in which SMEs are emerging. very pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, Significantly, SMEs also suffer from very high interest and I agree with much of what he said. I draw the rates. That is the fact of the matter on the ground, on House’sattention to my entry in the register of Members’ the continent. interests. I have a particular interest because when I To address that, the CDC has seen it as part of its chaired the International Development Committee in mission to support those businesses through supporting the House of Commons, we carried out an inquiry banks. So, taking the example of a recent investment it published in 2011, before the change in strategy. The has made, it has supported the dfcu Bank in Uganda, noble Lord anticipated some criticisms of the Labour which focuses on tackling the lack of long-term funding Government, which I did not want to make too forcefully, for SMEs in a country—Uganda—where they contribute but he was right that the corporation was being looked around 70% of GDP. A bank such as that could not at for privatisation. Douglas Alexander got it focused hope to obtain on the open market the sort of funding more on poverty but it really took Andrew Mitchell that the CDC can give it, on the terms that the CDC and a wholesale review to come to a strategic change. 1877 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1878

One recommendation in our report was to split the The other thing I will talk about is the mix of our fund. The Government did not agree, but did split the aid budget and focus, because this is a big increase in corporation’s objectives from being just a fund of one particular component of DfID’s spending. The funds to separating funds and direct investment and Minister gave me a reply earlier this week relating to going back to some of the traditions of the early days the Government’s humanitarian response. He said of the CDC when it invested directly in companies that our spend over the last three years has gone from and enterprises, not just through funds. That has £826 million to £1,266 million—that is, from 12% of obviously had an impact over the last few years and is total ODA to 17%. Everybody understands why that becoming a more significant part of the portfolio, but has happened and there is clear public support for it is still very small. I hope that the new strategy will that. Nevertheless that is an increasing proportion of help to explain how we can achieve more of that and the budget which, by definition, is not available for find ways to fill the market failures in those gaps to other aspects of development spending. There have make the transformation. The reality is that I do not been indications of cutbacks in some development believe that any country has significantly lifted its programmes, partly because of that pressure. people out of poverty without having a vibrant private The second thing is that the depreciation in the sector. The role of development finance funds of the value of the pound—on average 20%—means that CDC’s kind is extremely important in helping that to the purchasing power of our aid budget has been happen. correspondingly reduced and so there is less scope. My noble friend Lady Northover identified a number Those people who seem to think, because of our of concerns, which I hope that the Minister will directly commitment of 0.7%, that somehow DfID and our address. There have been reservations expressed that development budget is awash with funds are not really we are going for a quadrupling, and then a further facing up to the pressures of impending famines as doubling, when we do not have a strategy nor yet a well as of traditional development. clear indication of how that money will be spent. The There is a clear synergy between the role of Minister rightly says that there is a huge demand for a development and the role of private sector investment. huge amount of money; the question is how much of Clearly investors, whether they are indigenous to a that would be more appropriately met by an organisation country or outside it or in partnership, benefit from such as CDC, as opposed to the wider market. Given having an educated, healthy workforce and decent the sort of criticisms that the sector currently faces, infrastructure investment. The two things fit together. the Government need to be careful about putting Indeed, one of the reasons that many enterprises are substantial additional funds into CDC—although I reluctant to invest in developing countries is a lack of would not put it in these terms—without being absolutely those things, coupled with problems of governance clear that there will be proper accountability, proper and corruption that make them difficult places to do results and a proper strategy. If they are not, they will business. If the CDC and development can work find the sort of heat that they have experienced in the together to make that environment more conducive, popular press being turned on them for exactly this. It the private sector will be able to take more of the would be extremely unfortunate if that were to happen burden on itself and help to address the development and we must make sure that it does not. needs. We can look to countries such as China, India The reality is that we need to invest in projects that and Vietnam that have demonstrated how that kind of are riskier and offer a poorer return, because those are partnership can lift millions of people out of poverty precisely the projects that the private sector, and by over a relatively short period of time. definition the market, will not address. The CDC has There is a clear need to ensure that extra money shown that they are there and can generate a return. going into the CDC is not at the expense of development The question is whether there will really be £12 billion programmes. I completely agree that the objective in of that kind of investment available over the next few the end is for countries to have the capacity and the years. resources to run their own services and be free of aid, The Secretary of State has said that she wants the but we should not cut off that aid prematurely before focus of UK aid to be on trade and investment. That is they have actually established that degree of viability. a kind of mantra across the Government, who are That would be a point of concern for me. I know it is desperate to demonstrate that we can get agreements unpredictable but it would be helpful if the Government on trade and investment. But there is a consensus in and DfID gave us a little bit more guidance on their this House, which I hope is not under challenge, that strategic objectives in terms of how much they feel is our aid and development focus should be on poverty reasonable for humanitarian support, how much is reduction. That is our fundamental objective. The going into development and how much is going into noble Lord, Lord Boateng, mentioned the importance the private sector. It would help us to get a clearer idea of creating jobs and livelihoods. Quite terrifyingly, the of the strategy behind it. forecast of job requirements in Africa alone is not in Just as a general comment, the people in the the millions or even the tens of millions. Hundreds of sector whom I meet, whether they work for private millions of jobs will have to be found in a relatively contractors, NGOs or organisations generally working short time, which is really quite a scary thought because, with development, feel very beleaguered at the moment. if those jobs cannot be found, there will be an awful They feel under sustained attack—not all of it justified lot of idle hands looking for something to do—and I or even accurate—not only from the popular press but fear that those things may not always be positive and also from the more serious media with an inadequately constructive. There is no doubt at all that we need to robust response and defence from DfID as well as do that. across the Government. Much more can be done to 1879 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1880

[LORD BRUCE OF BENNACHIE] The Minister used the words “doing good while not explain how transformational UK aid is and how losing money”. That does not seem to be an adequate effective we are at delivering real results, giving people description of our international development programme, the good-news stories that are out there of how, because poverty reduction has been the focus of our thanks to our intervention and the partnerships we aid programme for some time. We abolished tied aid a build both from our own expertise and that of the generation ago, and the failures of huge projects such country we are operating in, we are helping to make a as Pergau and Narmada marked the end of large-scale real difference. UK investments during the 1980s. Since then, successive People who say aid does not work are simply ignoring Aid Ministers have listened to criticism and have won the facts. We have reduced poverty, we have massively public support for more programmes which demonstrate delivered on health objectives, we have got more children people’s participation, meet the needs of the very into education and we are beginning to raise the poorest in society, create partnerships and bring non- quality of these services. We have set ourselves an governmental organisations directly into the planning ambition of ending absolute poverty by 2030—no and execution of projects. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, mean commitment—and to do that we will have to mentioned that. I was encouraged to hear the Minister maintain our level of commitment but we also have to say that there is still room for improvement, presumably explain it much more fully and clearly. in the direction of the very poorest. That is precisely Therefore, while the CDC has a role to play, its the dilemma the CDC faces. changed focus over the past five or six years makes it As someone familiar with some of the UK’s best better equipped to spend more fully.I still have reservations NGOs which are working alongside the poorest and in about whether there are enough of the right kind of partnership with DfID, I have seen this work at first projects to absorb this extra spending, and I would be hand and I know that it brings real benefits to society. interested to see the strategies around how that could I do not need persuading that the private sector, and be done. I support what we are trying to do, but it is the CDC in particular, can be an effective channel to important that we show how the CDC fits in with the the poor. In fact, business is a good route for the strategy of development, humanitarian response, building voluntary sector to follow. For instance, the business resilience and capacity and helping, as the second-largest model in which women create their own credit and bilateral donor in the world, to lead the way to end loan scheme, originated with the Grameen Bank and absolute poverty by 2030. This has to be a contribution other microcredit organisations, is still widely respected. to that. The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, mentioned SMEs in Africa, which are another important channel. 1 pm When it comes to investment decisions, which are The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, it is a not risk free, and due diligence at a higher level of pleasure to follow the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and management, there comes a point when must priorities Lord Boateng, with their historical experience of the change. Pay scales rise and the interests of the corporation CDC, and I am much looking forward to the speech of itself may take over from those of the beneficiary. This my old noble friend Lord Eccles, who has seen the is a built-in dilemma which was discussed in some CDC almost from the beginning. detail yesterday in the Public Accounts Committee I was surprised that this Bill was made a money which I attended. Investment really belongs to a different Bill, considering the huge questions raised by the tradition, and this is why the CDC is being kept expansion of the DfID programme. I know we have separate from the mainstream aid programme. One limited powers in this House, but I tried to complain. I might be forgiven for asking whether it needs to focus went to the Chief Whip, who agreed to talk to the on the poor at all. Lord Speaker, but I decided I could not take it any Additionally, there is the issue of accountability. further. A central issue in the Bill seems to me Does the CDC really know how its funds are being whether, in handing over such a large proportion of used on the ground and where they are directed and, our aid to the private sector and to one particular even more importantly, can it monitor progress and body, we may be bypassing some of the core principles impact at a later date? Fortunately, we now have really that have governed the aid programme over many good watchdogs in the form of ICAI, the NAO and years. DfID itself, not forgetting the IDC, other Select I know that the CDC has changed considerably Committees and occasionally our own EU Select under new management. I have discussed this directly Committees which have occasionally covered the EU with the CEO, Diana Noble, quite recently. My noble aid programme. The CDC is very closely scrutinised. friend Lord St John made a very strong case for the On the whole, the CDC comes out well from various CDC. I accept that it has responded to radical change. reports and audits. It has responded to recommendations To take only one example, in 2015 more than 1 million and its transformation is much admired. There are jobs were indirectly created by the CDC in Africa and some criticisms worth mentioning, some of them highly Asia alone. I also have great admiration for the Minister technical, which were examined, inevitably in much of State in another place, Rory Stewart, whose work more detail, in the Commons debates, and I am sorry with the voluntary sector is well known, as is the that we cannot do that today. For example, the NAO experience of our own Minister, but having read found that the development impact target measures Mr Stewart’s replies to the debate in the Commons, I prospective impact rather than actual impact. The am not yet convinced that the CDC has embraced noble Lord, Lord Judd, raised this point. There are poverty reduction, which, incidentally, is not quite the also recruitment and retention challenges. The CDC same as job creation. may be on the right track, but it still has to demonstrate 1881 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1882 that it can make a lasting difference to the lives of the public corporation to becoming an institution with poorest. ICAI reports have come out with similar share capital which would then become 75% private comments, although they recognise the growing role and 25% continuing to be owned by the Government. of foreign direct investment in development. My noble That is the 1999 Act that we are talking about friend Lord St John made that point. amending today. It set up the possibility of CDC, then Finally, there is also a problem of public information. renamed the CDC Group with a shareholding, becoming Far too little is known about the CDC programme, 75% private owned and 25% retained by the Government. while DfID projects are much more visible, and this That did not happen. I will not go into the story of creates discrepancies. ICAI last year pointed out the why it did not happen, although I am pretty familiar anomaly that the CDC is moving DfID back to BRICs with it. I will just say that I believe that the 1999 Bill and middle-income countries. While DfID has scaled was a mistake and that there should never have been a down its aid programme in India, the CDC’s investment campaign to take any part of the CDC out of public there amounts to one-quarter of its portfolio. Is the ownership. It should always have remained in public tail wagging the dog? Does this mean that India suddenly ownership. Although I sit on this side of the House, I again becomes a developing country and not a middle- can assure your Lordships that, when I was chief income country? Should not the public be aware of executive of CDC in the days of Margaret Thatcher, I this, because many people have argued that the poorest was completely consistent with my board that it would in India should always be a priority? I also believe that be wrong for CDC to seek to be privatised; it should the CDC should arrange visits, perhaps through the stay in public ownership. CPA as well as the IDC, so that more MPs and others That is where CDC is today and that is why what can go out to see the work it is doing because it is so has happened since 2010 is of very great interest to important. Parliament. It is a great pleasure to find that Parliament I am sorry to strike a discordant note during the is again debating CDC. Although years ago, CDC was passage of this Bill, but while I recognise the value of quite frequently debated in Parliament, there was a big the CDC’s work, I shall need more convincing that it is gap from about 2004 until 2010 when, frankly, the really about poverty.The noble Baroness,Lady Northover, general opinion was, “Sweep it under the carpet and mentioned the CDC’seffect on DfID, which is important. don’t talk about it”. The SNP and others put down several amendments on From 2010, under the Secretary of State, Andrew these matters, but I think Her Majesty’s Government Mitchell, a decision was made by the coalition have still skilfully avoided the answer. The CDC apart, Government to see if they could put CDC back with the future loss of EU channels of funding and on track. It had become, as I think a noble Lord the fall in growth rates and commodity prices in mentioned, a fund of funds. As a fund of funds it was Africa, DfID already faces a considerable challenge in no longer a development finance institution. The chain rethinking its responsibilities to the developing world. of accountability to Parliament was broken by CDC becoming a fund of funds and that needed to be 1.08 pm restored. That was spotted by the coalition Government and, as has been said, they made arrangements to Viscount Eccles (Con): My Lords, I worked for the appoint a new chief executive, Diana Noble, who has CDC from 1981 to 1994. As the noble Lord, Lord done an extremely fine job, and a chairman, Graham Judd, said, for nine of those years, I was its chief Wrigley, who, in my opinion, has also done an extremely executive. There is one other coincidence: my noble fine job. They have been getting the CDC back on friend Lord Flight now lives in a house in which I lived track. for a while and in which Lord Reith, who was a most While the Bill is extremely welcome, we need to successful chairman of the CDC in the 1950s and keep close attention on the business plans of CDC. It 1960s, had also lived. I do not know whether there is is a very important duty not only of DfID but also of any message in that coincidence, but it is interesting. Parliament to understand where CDC is going. As I would like to concentrate on the period from your Lordships will understand, it takes a very long 2010, on which the debate is concentrating. My period time for the things that have been brought into CDC’s is irrelevant, except that I endorse what the noble portfolio to work out. The usual time before a CDC Lord, Lord Judd, said about technology transfer and investment is realised may be about 10 years. We are capacity building. A development finance institution still living with a great deal of what CDC invested in such as CDC does not have a role unless it is involved as a fund of funds before 2010, which is going to take in both technology transfer and capacity building and, quite a long time to work its way out. therefore, the creation of greater human capacity for In the strategic future, the question which has been people to do things that they did not know how to do raised by many noble Lords is what proportion of the before. I could tell your Lordships many stories about CDC portfolio is going to be directly invested. Only a how CDC has achieved that in the past, but I would direct investor can encompass innovation and going to like to concentrate on the period from 2010. places where the private sector will not naturally go. Before doing that, I want to refer to some comments Several of those places have been mentioned, including made by the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, about the northern Nigeria and the Congo. We can all think of period before 2010. We are all talking about CDC, but many places in Africa where the fully private sector that is inaccurate. It is, in fact, the CDC Group. In will hesitate to go. These are the places into which 1997, the decision was made in the manifesto that a CDC in—it is true—70 years has always been willing Bill would be put before Parliament which would have to go and had the capacity to go without making the purpose of changing CDC from being a loan-financed serious mistakes. 1883 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1884

[VISCOUNT ECCLES] I have only two points to raise. First, when the With a small exception in the period between 1999 resources available are increased, will the CDC, where and 2010, CDC always made a surplus of income over appropriate, have the opportunity to invest beyond the expenditure throughout the years. When we authorise continent of Africa and the countries of south Asia? I this increase in capital, we should not worry that CDC do not think there are any legal constraints on this. It will lose that money. If it is true to its past, it will not. is not in the text of the Bill, and the title says It will keep that money and use it as a revolving fund “Commonwealth”, but it certainly seems that investment which will enable it to do more and more economic goes beyond Commonwealth countries. Will the new development. resources allow investment elsewhere? As a condition of that economic development, I The second point, which may not come as any come back to the transfer of the knowledge of surprise to the Minister, is about the British Overseas technologies such as from—I do not know—a generic Territories. It is government policy that their reasonable pill manufacturer. That would be a very beneficial needs are the first call on the UK aid programme. For thing to be happening to a greater extent in Africa. each aided territory, DfID’s objective is to assist it in However, anyone investing in that would need to know reaching self-sufficiency. The extension of the potential about pharmaceuticals and how to set up and manage CDC resources would be but a pinprick for the CDC a factory. It is very important that, when a strategic but could be highly significant for dependent territories plan comes, we can see that CDC has proprietary such as Montserrat and the St Helena group of islands. technology of its own. It has always had some and still I have a particular interest in St Helena, having made has—power generation and mobile telephones are two two visits there. Even with the delays, the availability examples of where CDC has had technology and has of the airport there for mainstream use is keenly deployed it. awaited, which we hope will happen during this summer. The people in CDC are also very important. The We know that there are detractors around, so it is staff has been built up recently from, I think, 50 when important just to mention that there have now been it was just a finance house to about 250 today. Within several medivac flights of small aeroplanes, and six the capacity of staff employed by CDC, we need people are alive now who might not be had they had to people who understand businesses and how to set up wait three weeks to get a boat to Cape Town. and manage them, as well as people who know how to However, St Helena still needs the infrastructure to finance them. cater for airborne visitors. When I was there three and I welcome the Bill and believe very strongly in a half years ago, two very significant developments economic development, not only in financial rates of were about to happen, but they have not taken place. return but also in what I would call, not development It would be a proper use of CDC resources to assist impact, but economic rates of return, in which the with some of these developments in order to take social as well as other effects are measured. CDC St Helena away from DfID dependency, whether by going forward in that way, rebuilding itself as it has investment, loan or even guaranteed support. already done with very considerable success, will get even more into the forefront of being out there, doing 1.24 pm things that the fully private sector is not in a position or not ready to do. As it goes forward, it will leverage Baroness Flather (CB): My Lords, I have no personal in money from less certain people, because they know relationship with the CDC, although not for want of that if they come in alongside CDC, it is likely to work trying. I went to see Diana Noble but was dismissed— and to work well. metaphorically, not literally—because she left after 20 minutes. I was trying to find out what it does and how it works, but got nothing. However, that is not the 1.20 pm reason why I am speaking today. I was not pleased, Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD): My Lords, it is a but that is not the important part. great pleasure to follow so many noble Lords who I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, when have had experience of these matters over very many she dealt with DfID issues to ask her some questions years and particularly of the splendid historical context about the CDC. She did not answer them, but just in which we see the CDC. This short Bill is twice as repeated what the CDC had told her to say. I then long as another little Bill that we will have when we wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, and I must thank return after the recess. We may have a couple of hours him, in front of all your Lordships, for writing to me now, but of course there are five whole days so far in properly and giving me a lot more information. But the weeks that follow, although there could be more. there are some issues which worry me. The noble We have no opportunity to amend this Bill, as money Baroness, Lady Northover, and my noble friend Lord is at stake. Sandwich made the point about poverty reduction. It We know that there are two basic aims: to quadruple is difficult to see how some of the investments I have the resources available to the CDC and then, by order, found out about through research, which I will talk to double them on top of that. Because we cannot about, fulfil the objective of reducing poverty. amend the Bill at all, it is an act of faith as far as we in The other point which worries me very much is the this place are concerned. We have to have faith that the need for a proper independent review of the CDC’s funds will be properly used. I do not wish to detract at work. I think most of your Lordships have taken on all from the concerns that have been expressed by so board what it says, and may know more about its work many noble Lords, and look forward to hearing about in depth than I do, but since the Harvard review, a sound business plan and strategy. which looked at 2008 to 2012, there has not been a 1885 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1886 proper independent review. Any organisation which To me, these things are very worrying. I would like receives government money should have regular somebody to take a much stronger interest in the independent reviews. Some of the things said about CDC’s investment policies: which countries it is investing the CDC have not been very encouraging. The shadow in and what the return is. It invested in another chain Minister for Development, Mary Creagh, has said that, of fee-paying schools, saying, “This is very good because “the government’s own aid watchdog gave their private sector aid you only pay $6 a month to get your child in there”. spending an amber-red rating and warned that ministers lack Although $6 seems nothing to noble Lords sitting targets and a clear focus on reducing poverty”. here, it could mean a lot to a really poor person in Maybe that will be dealt with in the new measures we Africa. Will they be able to find $6 to send their child will read about. She went on: do school? So I ask the Minister please to make sure “Ministers must ensure this new investment in the CDC is that the money is being spent for poverty reduction as transparent, focused on helping the poorest people in the world well as job creation. Just creating jobs will not change and delivers value for money for British taxpayers.” a country entirely. Poverty reduction has to be a I think it does, but I do not know how much it does for priority. the poorest people. There was also a certain amount of criticism about gated communities, shopping centres 1.33 pm and luxury properties in poor countries. According to the Global Justice Now advocacy group: Baroness Sheehan (LD): My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for introducing this Bill to your Lordships’ “CDC have a track record of ploughing money into dubious ‘aid’ projects like the Garden City luxury housing and shopping House. Having listened to the speeches of other noble complex in Kenya and a luxury hotel in Lagos, Nigeria”. Lords, I am also reminded—if I needed reminding—yet There are issues about the work of the CDC because again about the wealth of experience, and the breadth we do not get outside reviewers to look at it. The noble and depth of geographical knowledge, that exists in Lord, Lord Bates, said that the National Audit Office this House. I thank everybody who has contributed to looks at it but that is not quite what I had in mind. It my knowledge in this area. has to be looked at by people who are involved in This is a Bill that seeks to divert the policy of a development, not national audit. Even if it spends its government department quite significantly. It is a Bill money properly, I doubt whether it manages to keep that was neither trailed in the Conservative Party all of it clean, because I am sure it has to grease some manifesto, nor mentioned in the Queen’s Speech. palms in some of the countries it is working in—although Moreover, it has been hastened with unseemly speed the less said about that, the better. to its place on the statute book. Indeed, the passage of the Bill through the Commons gave rise to a It worries me that there is no real review of the good number of complaints from NGOs and think CDC’s work. Let me go through some of its current tanks that they had not been able to meet the very investments. It has now invested $6 million in Bridge tight timescales made available to them and had had International Academies, a company that runs fee-paying their submissions to the International Development schools in Kenya. That is all very well, but why does it Committee’s inquiry committee rejected. The Bill has have to invest that much money in fee-paying schools? been designated as a money Bill, so we in your Lordships’ What people need instead is non-fee-paying schools, House have no means by which to amend it or add or schools where the fees are so small that they can conditions and safeguards—in short, no means to manage to pay them. This deeply concerns me. carry out our responsibility to give it proper scrutiny Rainbow Children’s Hospitals is a corporate hospital and make refinements which the Government may in chain in India that provides mother-and-baby care time have come to appreciate. This is a pity, because and fertility treatment. The question was asked whether taxpayers’ money—quite a lot of taxpayers’ money—is India is a middle-income country or a poor country. being moved from under the jurisdiction solely of India has more poor people than many other countries, Governments to an organisation which is not wholly but there is so much money that Christine Lagarde accountable, given that it invests through funds of said in her lecture two years ago that the Indian funds, as the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, pointed billionaires could remove poverty overnight. I do not out. That money is then outside of accountability see why the CDC has to invest in the corporate sector through the Government and through DfID. in India. There is a lot of money for money-making in I am not the only one who thinks that the Bill’s India. People do not give money for the poor or for designation as a money Bill is inappropriate. The poverty reduction, but they are very happy to invest in noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, agreed with me, as did the the corporate sector. report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Finally—and the worst of all—there is Narayana Committee, which said: Health, a corporate multi-speciality hospital chainI “We consider that the Bill contains an inappropriate delegation have made some enquiries about Narayana. It is not of power unless the Government can provide a convincing explanation just a hospital chain but one of the biggest conglomerates, of the need for this Henry VIII power”. and does all sorts of things. Its hub is in southern The Government did respond, but not convincingly. India and is almost like a small town. Why are we The need for development aid confronts us daily on giving it money? I do not understand why we are our screens. Surely this is not the time to open up giving money to Narayana Health, which is one of the another line of attack for the vitriolic campaign that richest organisations. I do not want my tax money—if the Daily Mail and other rags are waging against the it is my tax money—to go to Narayana Health. It has Department for International Development. That is been given $48 million. It does not need money. It has what I fear this Bill will encourage. As we have seen, more money than it can spend. the CDC is vulnerable to attacks. In making this 1887 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1888

[BARONESS SHEEHAN] strategies and policies to the International Development momentous and generous increase in the budget of Act 2002, the International Development (Gender the CDC, the Secretary of State risks exposing the Equality) Act 2014 and the UN sustainable development entire 0.7% of GNI available for aid, yet again, to goals would go some way to countering media attacks. another round of attacks from parts of the media. She However, the recent NAO report on the CDC’s could have given herself some ammunition to rebut development impact framework does not include the attacks by putting some safeguards into the Bill, indicators for development impact achieved. Moreover, but then she has hardly been beforehand in rebutting the CDC is not formally required to report on that. any of the attacks levelled at her department. I know Why not? to his credit that the Minister is supportive of the Will the Government change their current reporting 0.7% ODA, but will he convey to his boss that her structure so that the CDC is subject to and compliant history of attacks on DfID during the EU referendum with the International Development Act 2002—surely campaign and her record of failing to defend the not a big ask? Measuring impact is so important, and department on becoming its head are not reassuring? a really hot topic in the sector. The CDC has £5 million I move on to why I think this Bill would have put aside to invest in a research project to develop a benefited from some refinements. It seeks to allow the methodology to measure impact, yet that money lies CDC a massive increase of £4.5 billion to its overall unused. That is inexcusable. spend to raise the ceiling to £6 billion, with an option to increase it further by another £6 billion by secondary The CDC’s preference for using job creation as a legislation to a total of £12 billion. This raises eyebrows measure of impact is crude. Nor is it readily verifiable, as the CDC has a chequered past—historically coming as its intermediaries and co-investees can choose to under heavy criticism in the really bad old days. Before provide no back-up data for their assertions. The 2012, the CDC spent 100% of its budget through CDC itself must not remain silent when it is attacked funds of funds in projects that could hardly be described in the press. It is imperative that it defends itself, and as pro-poor, including as they did, the arms trade. to do so it must have facts and figures at its fingertips. Nowadays, one-third of the CDC’s investments are It is no longer enough to say that it is in the business of made in other intermediary funds—funds of funds—a job creation: that is only one indicator and is, moreover, third are syndicated with other funds, co-invested; and unqualified. To be more meaningful, we need to know a third are direct investments.Wehope that the proportion the quality of the jobs, pay and working conditions of of direct investments which give greater accountability employees, gender and age of the workforce and whether to taxpayers will increase under the new strategy, once any training or education is delivered. that is published. I move on to the criticism that the CDC has come First, let me address the problems posed with respect under because of its use of tax havens. I hear what to transparency in the reporting of data. This is important Diana Noble, the CDC’s CEO—for whom I have great because we need to be sure that ODA invested in the regard, incidentally—says in defence of their use: that CDC can be traceable and accountable to taxpayers, it is sometimes unavoidable when co-investees will not in line with DfID’s international commitment on aid commit to a project where they believe there are not transparency. It is true that reporting has improved; sufficient safeguards for the money or to avoid double however, a full two-thirds of the CDC’s investments taxation. My response is that the use of tax havens remain opaque. leads to the diversion of tax revenues from the poorest nations in the world—revenues that could be spent on The CDC needs to take this on board and push for health, education, clean water and so on—and all greater transparency in the deals it does with efforts must be made to put in place extra precautions intermediaries, be they co-investees or other funds. and lend expertise to develop more robust financial These deals are rarely published with clarity, giving practices that move that agenda forward. Development rise to allegations of secrecy and nefarious goings-on. is, after all, the key word. These precautions may eat It must publish what it funds. This has become even into profit margins, but profits at the CDC are still more imperative given that, since 2014, all capital well above the 3.5% agreed with Ministers—for example, transfer to the CDC is now reported as ODA by DfID last year’s profits were 16%. The Prime Minister cannot to the OECD credit reporting system, but not all CDC on the one hand promise a crackdown on companies’ investments are eligible as ODA. use of tax havens and at the same time sanction their The International Aid Transparency Initiative standard use by a government-owned company. in 2012 rated the CDC as poor—a point mentioned by The CDC must be careful to guard against scandal. the noble Lord, Lord Judd—and asked it to publish It must not appear in the press for the wrong reasons. what it funds. Why can it not publish country-by-country Every deal must meet the Daily Mail resilience test. data? Neither DfID nor the CDC publishes data that Will it stand up to allegations of propping up corrupt give us a complete picture of how public money is leaders? Can a luxury mall be justified—for example, invested. We do not know who is accountable: DfID would the project struggle to attract investment elsewhere or the CDC. This is unsatisfactory, and some clarity if the CDC were not to invest in it? Can the project from the Minister on this question would be appreciated. withstand allegations of “public money, private profit”? Given that 100% of the capital transfer from DfID The CDC’s remit is to invest in private enterprises that to the CDC will now count as ODA, it is essential, to would typically struggle to attract investment elsewhere, avoid controversy, that CDC projects demonstrate as stated in its mission statement. Does it really need that they are focused on ending poverty. Closely linking to invest in high-end private education or for-profit its performance framework, evaluation and reporting, private health? These highly profitable enterprises, 1889 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1890 targeted at the well-off, usually in middle-income parts themselves and their families. If we are to deter even of a country, are justified, the CDC says, because the more of them, in their desperation, from exposing country is overall a low-income country. The CDC themselves to the risks of dangerous journeys across would do itself a favour if it were to cease investing in continents, then we must work to ease their misery in such businesses and stick to its objective: invest to their own countries. This is a moral imperative that contribute to economic growth for the benefit of the benefits us as much as them. poor. That is not to say that investing in health is wrong—far 1.50 pm from it. The health sector is a key area where the impact of aid is clear and one that the public can Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, in this connect with—very important—so the economic benefits House there has been strong support for the 0.7% aid of spending on health are strong, estimated to exceed target and Britain’s role in international development. cost by a factor of 20 in lower or middle-income There is also a broad consensus around the role of the countries. However, recently published figures for UK CDC, as we have heard in this debate. bilateral aid show that health has dropped from being Job creation is one of the best ways to reduce the largest area of spending to fourth place. There is a poverty; it is important that the Government have a trend of moving away from social development sectors development investment arm that will help poorer into areas such as economic development and countries to create new and innovative jobs. However, infrastructure, which may not always be pro-poor. the focus for such work must be on the poorest, least That is something we must guard against. Each has its developed and lowest-income countries, and on ensuring place, but we must ensure that one important sector that the work is consistent with the sustainable does not lose out in place of another—a point my development goals agreed by the UN. noble friend Lord Bruce made far more ably than I As we have heard, the CDC made significant changes can. The CDC’s investment in health can be targeted following the 2008 National Audit Office report and—as so that it is demonstrably pro-poor. the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, reminded us—following In drawing my remarks to a close, I highlight the the 2011 International Development Committee report, lack of strategy. The current strategy ended last year. in line with recommendations to move towards a focus During the Bill’s passage through the Commons, the on the alleviation of poverty. This shift in focus is a Minister, Rory Stewart, said in his response that the major achievement of Diana Noble. She has done a amendments addressing the points I have highlighted terrific job and will be sorely missed. The changes were all valid, but that they were best addressed were reviewed recently by a further NAO report released through internal governance and the forthcoming just before the Second Reading of the Bill in the investment strategy rather than primary legislation. House of Commons in November 2016. We were told by the Minister that this already much- The report was mostly positive. It noted that the delayed strategy would be with us by last December. It 2012 to 2016 investment strategy shifted the CDC’s is now February, and we have had no sight of the new investment focus, which is clearly welcome. It noted strategy which will guide the investments under which that the CDC had exceeded the targets agreed with up to £12 billion of taxpayers’ money will be spent. DfID relating to financial performance and development This is unsatisfactory. impact. However, it also said that the CDC should do We must add to that the fact that the current CEO, more to measure the development impact of its Diana Noble, is due to leave shortly and the CDC will investments. This would not only provide a better be under new leadership. I congratulate Ms Noble on basis for investment decisions, but increase the her work for the CDC over the past five years. It transparency of the CDC. cannot have been easy. The changes she has wrought Poverty alleviation is absolutely central if we are to have moved the organisation in the right direction. make a success of the SDGs and Agenda 2030. As the However, as I have outlined, this is very much work in noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, said, the adoption progress. The appointment of a new head of the of SDGs has resulted in an international consensus organisation will inevitably mean a different way of that the private sector needs to play an even greater doing things but, without knowing who the new head role in delivering a sustainable future for everyone, by will be or what the CDC’s vision for 2017-22 will look integrating the aims of the goals into its business like, we are being asked to give our consent to a blank practices. cheque. Developing countries currently face an annual I confess that I feel uncomfortable about doing investment gap of $2.5 trillion to achieve the global that. However, the Bill’s passage is assured. I hope that goals by 2030. The goals can be achieved only by the Government and the CDC will take on board not working with the private sector, including with DFI only my comments but those made by others in organisations such as the CDC. The CDC states that it your Lordships’ House, and ensure that the CDC is committed to helping to achieve the global goals by does not become the weak underbelly of DfID and focusing on those where it can have most impact: goal leave itself open to attacks from those elements in 7 on affordable and clean energy—as we have heard, the media which have never understood the imperative we know there is an infrastructure need, particularly for the 0.7% commitment of GNI towards international in Africa—as well as goal 9 on industry, innovation aid. and infrastructure, and goal 8 on decent work and UN figures tell us that more than 65 million people economic growth. Noble Lords have made the point across the world have had to leave their homes to seek that the CDC is investing in areas where labour standards safety and to try to meet basic human needs for both are a key issue for its investment. In the most difficult 1891 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1892

[LORD COLLINS OF HIGHBURY] Surely a way for the Government to address legitimate countries, I know it has even built in proper workplace concerns would have been to include on the face of the representation, which is vital in terms of delivering on Bill standards for the CDC to meet, in terms of the our SDG objectives. commitment to transparency, value for money and tracking development results. Since this opportunity We are told that the ending of extreme poverty by has been missed, I ask the Minister whether the CDC 2030 is central to the CDC strategy. The 2012 to 2016 will be asked—in the strategy that I hope your Lordships’ investment plan has, as we have heard, expired and we House will have the opportunity to debate—to improve are yet to see the 2017 to 2021 investment plan. Like its transparency and reduce the volume of investments many noble Lords, I am disappointed that Parliament it routes through tax havens. is being asked to raise the investment threshold before While I believe that it makes sense to increase the seeing the plans for the next four years of investment. CDC’s investment threshold, we need to ensure, as In terms of measuring the development impact of with any area of government spending, that every its investments, I ask the Minister whether he can penny is going where it can have the greatest effect—the assure the House that in the new investment strategy a right places and the right people delivering value for more robust approach to measuring development impact money for the taxpayer. One way in which to achieve will be implemented. Like my noble friend Lord Boateng, that would be to ensure that we could have regular I also hope the Minister will be able to reassure us that scrutiny and proper debates in Parliament on the Parliament—this House in particular—will have the CDC’s activities. opportunity to debate and consider the new investment strategy. There is no doubt that the CDC has become 2 pm more transparent, but more can still be done to ensure Lord Bates: My Lords, I begin by thanking all that money is being spent as well as possible. One way noble Lords for their contributions in what has been a this could be achieved is to allow the Independent thoughtful and fascinating debate that has ranged Commission for Aid Impact to play a bigger role—for quite widely over a number of different headings. example, by carrying out a regular assessment of Broadly, I have categorised those—although there is a CDC investments, allowing scrutiny so that we can significant overlap—into: the CDC’s role in the private ensure the full effectiveness and value for money of sector, which the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, referred the programmes in which the CDC invests. to with practical examples, as did my noble friend We should be proud. The CDC has been a world Lord Flight with other examples, and it was also leader among development finance institutions in referred to by the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, publishing details of its investments since 2012 under and my noble friend Lord Eccles; the CDC development the International Aid Transparency Initiative. But it strategy and where this Bill fits into that, which was would improve transparency further if it published focused on by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, along similar details on its entire active investment portfolio, with the noble Lords, Lord Shutt and Lord Judd, the including those investments made prior to 2012. That noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble would enable greater scrutiny of the CDC’s entire Lord, Lord Bruce; and, finally, the question of portfolio and hopefully provide assurances to the public parliamentary scrutiny that should rightly be that all CDC investments are focused where they need afforded to such an important area of public expenditure to be—on the goal of poverty reduction. and investment, which was the focus of the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Baronesses, Lady My noble friend Lord Judd and the noble Baroness, Flather and Lady Sheehan. I shall take that as my Lady Northover,as well as other noble Lords, highlighted rough template to draw some strands out of the initial two particular areas of concern: first, the volume of remarks. the Government’s proposed new investment for the The first point to make, however, is that, obviously, CDC and, secondly, the CDC’s continued use of tax I echo the comments made by a number of Members havens. Regarding volume, a critical issue, which noble during the debate recognising the significant level of Lords have raised, is whether the CDC can absorb this expertise resident in this House that can be brought to funding—does it have the capacity to deal with it? I bear in scrutinising and helping to shape strategies in hope the Minister will be clear today about the schedule future. for this spending. What is his idea of the number of years over which the increase would be spent before we On the strategy, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, was might require another Act to increase it even further? absolutely right to take us back to the sustainable development goals and Agenda 2030. When we look On tax havens, it is disappointing that, despite the at a Bill, we look at a particular strategy in isolation, Government’s stated objective in cracking down on and I want to try to place this Bill in the wider context, tax evasion, the CDC continues to use them, including which is that of the sustainable development goals. the Cayman Islands and Mauritius. I met the chair Goal 8 has been mentioned, but essentially it is goal 1 and the chief executive of the CDC recently and that we are after, the eradication of poverty, which is raised this concern with them. They responded in the the mission of DfID.The noble Baroness,Lady Northover, way that we have heard about in this debate, by and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, referred to that. We stressing the importance of stable financial arrangements have made good progress on that goal. In 1990, those for investments. In some countries—this is pretty living in extreme poverty numbered some 2 billion; as obvious—it is clearly not possible to set up arrangements of 2015, that number had reduced down to 705 million— within their legal structures to ensure that the right almost to one-third, at a time when global population duties and controls are in place. had gone up. In many ways, that heartened and 1893 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] CDC Bill 1894 strengthened the view—because a significant proportion Then we come to the question of the CDC Bill was drawn from the commitment to the millennium itself. The argument was that, because several years goals—that global concerted action and focus could had elapsed since the Act had been passed and the cap deliver significant change, if it was co-ordinated. That had not been moved during that time, it was right that, was why the UN Secretary-General set up the high-level given that economic development was going to play a panel of which the former Prime Minister David Cameron more significant role in addressing the sustainable was a co-chair, which then led to the sustainable development goals, we look at raising that cap. development goals. Of course, the UK Government are the shareholder, The sustainable development goals, which have as so when we talk about hiving off funds, as my noble their target eradicating extreme poverty by 2030, with friend Lord Flight said, we are hiving off funds to a number of successor goals to that, are very much ourselves. It is taxpayers—it is ourselves—who are the at the heart of what we do. Because we now view owner and shareholder, and we have the ultimate developmentactivitythroughthelensof theUNsustainable power as the shareholder, without wishing to worry development goals and have our commitment—which current holders of posts, to appoint the board and continues to be reiterated, as perhaps it needs to be—to appoint the chief executive.Wecan have a quite significant the 0.7%, which has been secured through legislation impact. I want to reassure noble Lords on that, because and our manifesto commitment, we seek to match the there was some concern in that regard. 0.7% with the goals. Our strategy across government On the CDC and its strategy, I took on board the for implementing the goals will be set out in a new point that was made. We are now drilling down: we Agenda 2030 strategy document, which will be published have gone through the sustainable development goals in the next couple of months. and the cross-government approach to delivering on aid; we are now into economic development and we I am providing a protracted introduction because have the economic development strategy; and now we my opening remarks perhaps did not quite cover the are saying that it is right that there should be an context that this Bill fits into. We have the sustainable investment strategy for CDC, which should be published development goals as a focus, we have a plan which is and discussed initially with the shareholder—namely, coming and we have a UK aid strategy, which sets out Her Majesty’s Government. the importance of economic development and of jobs, When that was being discussed, we felt there were which are sustainable goal 8, as well as the eradication two alternatives: to publish the strategy alongside the of poverty, which, rightly, was number one. It talks Bill, or to allow the Bill to make its progress through about partnerships and working together. The UK aid the House and do the House the courtesy of listening strategy then fits into and drives the single departmental to its scrutiny of the Bill. Some comments, such as the plan of the Department for International Development ones mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord St John of as the prime lever for doing this. Bletso, have made a profound difference, and others, The noble Baroness, Lady Flather raised a point on such as those brought to our attention by the noble data, and one of the most important elements in the Baroness, Lady Flather, perhaps less so. We chose to sustainable development goals is, to the delight of let it go through the House and for the wisdom and mathematicians and statisticians, the incredibly complex expertise that exists in this House to be incorporated data that will be required to track progress towards into the final strategy that is published. those goals. That is set by the United Nations Statistical At the same time, when agreeing our process on Commission, and the Office for National Statistics this, we had a couple of choices regarding parliamentary will have responsibility for collating data from across scrutiny, and I want to address this quite directly. government—includingtheGovernmentStatisticalService There was a debate about whether we put in £12 billion, and many other sources—and uploading those so that which was what we assessed looking forward. The we can better track our progress. That rests in the noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the estimated single departmental plan, which is published. $2.5 trillion funding gap, so this is significant but, in terms of the need, it is not vast. It is also fair to say Off the back of that, last week we published our that the amount we allocate, as a percentage of overseas economic development plan, which recognises the development assistance, to capital in financial institutions importance of private sector investment in infrastructure. is significantly less than countries such as the Netherlands, Gradually, this has all been built together. All of that Germany, France and the USA. We asked whether we is then scrutinised and overseen by the Independent should go straight to £12 billion or have an interim Commission for Aid Impact, ICAI, by the Select stage. I suppose the conclusion was that we could take Committee on International Development, by the NAO, this in cycles, so the initial plan will be for the next four whose report has been referred to, and by the Public years and then there will be a successor plan for the Accounts Committee—the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, following five years,which will be published and discussed. referred to attending the PAC meeting yesterday, where Off the back of that, there will then have to be an the Permanent Secretary gave evidence. affirmative resolution, before your Lordships’ House So that is the context in which this Bill needs to be and the other place, to give permission for that investment set. We are arguing that it is not all about economic to occur. We considered that point very carefully and development; economic development is part of what came to the conclusion to do it in two steps. That was DfID does—in the current year, economic development the rationale behind that. sits in an envelope of roughly £1.8 billion out of a The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the noble £12 billion spend. So we are talking about funding Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked about the CDC Bill being within that envelope on economic development. certified as a money Bill. I would like to say it was part 1895 CDC Bill [LORDS] CDC Bill 1896

[LORD BATES] My noble Friend, Lord Eccles, asked about the of a strategy, but of course we have no control over proportion of the CDC portfolio that is now direct. that. The certification of a money Bill is the preserve The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, referred to the report on of Mr Speaker in the other place, and I do not think this from when he chaired the Select Committee. The he would take any advice from Her Majesty’sGovernment CDC has built up its capacity and moved significantly on this or probably any other matter. He certifies it from operating as a fund of funds to operating more and it is what it is, and we must work within that. directly where it could exert greater control and measure I was struck by the points made and the quality of the results. In 2015, 67% of new commitments by the debate. Noble Lords suggested it would be useful value were direct investments, and we expect this ratio to have a debate on the strategy when it is published. of about two-thirds direct to one-third through funds There will be a number of other strategies around at a to continue. similar time on a sustainable development goals—sorry, The CDC was set a great challenge, and many let me just clarify that there will be an affirmative noble Lords rightly paid tribute to the work of the resolution before the House of Commons only, which current chair and current—and outgoing—chief executive, will have the opportunity to comment on this second Diana Noble. I certainly echo that. The CDC’s staff step. On whether there should there be an opportunity are immensely high-quality and combine private sector for your Lordships’ House to discuss this, that would expertise with a compassion for the world and a be for the usual channels to agree, but I will be very determination to ensure that we improve our performance sympathetic to it on the basis of the discussion we in relation to the poor. have had this morning. There was a criticism that the CDC has gone for easy wins. Perhaps that applies to a bygone era, as the I have set out the broad headings, so let me turn in noble Lord, Lord Boateng, referred to, when it was the time that remains to some brief responses to perhaps being “fattened up” for privatisation. When specific questions that I have not covered in my general we decided during the coalition Government, when remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked whether Andrew Mitchell was Secretary of State, that we wanted there would be full disclosure of the CDC’s investments this to be a long-term public vehicle as part of our on its website. I can reassure him that a full list of economic development strategy, we narrowed the focus. investments, including the legacy investments, can be We said, “Where are the poor people?”. The answer is viewed on the website. that 80% of that 700 million-plus that I mentioned still The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and the noble living in extreme poverty are in Africa and south Asia. Earl, Lord Sandwich, raised the point about measuring Therefore, that should be the focus of our attention. the CDC’s contribution to poverty reduction. The What is the greatest need in those areas? Is it for contribution is clear, as it is made through jobs, local financial sector instruments? That may be part of it, taxes and infrastructure. but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that the However, this economic development and investment greatest need is for jobs and better jobs in those areas. have to be seen alongside the work we are doing with So we said that the focus should be on the areas of our multilateral partners in the development banks. greatest poverty and on job creation as being the The World Bank operates in a lot of these countries objective. That is a fair area to head for. and international finance institutions in some regions Baroness Flather: I was trying to say, with some of have been mentioned, such as the Caribbean Development the examples that I gave, that they do not need money: Bank. We also have a UK Caribbean Infrastructure they are already very wealthy and they have jobs that Fund partnership. We use many different vehicles and they are giving to people. There has to be something direct investment is just one. focused on the areas where there is not enough money. We also have a huge commitment, rightly so, in education—which the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, Lord Bates: That is right. The noble Baroness refers oversaw as well during her time as Minister. It is true specifically to India, which is of course itself a signatory that no one has ever got out of poverty by aid alone to the sustainable development goals and the eradication and therefore trade is required, but it is equally true of poverty by 2030. That will have to be its focus. that, as well as economic development, you need A number of other questions and particular points education. Without the skills and the workforce, then I were raised. I will review the record, particularly with am afraid it is not going to happen. We have a major reference to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord programme in education, which then feeds into economic Judd, at the beginning, and where there are gaps or I development and our work with our international can add anything, if it will be convenient for the partners in respect of that. House, I will write to noble Lords. I reiterate my commitment to continue to engage with the House as In terms of independent evaluations, there was an the CDC progresses with its strategy and we finalise evaluation commissioned in 2015 by a team from the new business case. Harvard. It reviewed the CDC’s investment for the period 2008 to 2012 and concluded that the CDC’s Lord Judd: I am grateful to the Minister for what he investments had been transformational—a point made has said and the fact that he will write to me, although by my noble friends Lord Flight and Lord Eccles and it is a pity that, because this is a money Bill, we do not the noble Lords, Lord St John of Bletso and Lord have the opportunity to go into these things in Committee. Boateng—such as in the work of the Africa Enterprise However, will he agree with what has been said by Challenge Fund particularly with small and medium-size quite a number of noble Lords in this debate, that the enterprises. CDC, which of course has a lot of admiration, must 1897 CDC Bill [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Immigration Order 2017 1898 remember that job creation and the eradication of £170 million per year. Performance in the first year of poverty are not synonymous? Job creation can play an the policy was, I am pleased to say, broadly in line with important part, but the eradication of poverty is a these estimates. greater issue. We must not let one become a substitute In its first year of operation, the immigration health for the other. charge collected £164 million for spending on the NHS. Of that amount, £140.1 million was made available Lord Bates: I defer to the noble Lord’sgreat experience for spending on the NHS in 2015-16. The remainder in this area. He is right. He is also right to say that it will be made available to the NHS in 2016-17. This must not be perceived as an imposition. This must be year, the Home Office has transferred £120 million for something that comes from the ground up. It must be spending on the NHS and is expected to make a about strengthening capacity within the countries. That further transfer of income to the NHS before the year is why education, healthcare and all the other things end. Income from the charge is shared between the that we are doing in terms of infrastructure are so NHS in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland critical to the overall success. I accept that. to spend as they see fit. The CDC is the oldest development finance institution The draft order before us today amends the principal in the world. It is a great British institution that order—the Immigration (Health Charge) Order 2015—in reflects the values of the British public, who consistently two areas. First, it removes the exemption from the demonstrate their concern for and generosity towards health charge for intra-company transferees. Secondly, the poorest. We will make sure that we can all continue it creates a new and explicit exemption for victims of to be proud of the life-changing, pioneering work that modern slavery. It also makes a number of minor and this institution does. With that, I ask the House to give technical changes. Intra-company transferees are the Bill a Second Reading. employees of multinational employers who are transferred Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing to the UK either to take up a role that cannot be filled Order 46 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a by a UK recruit, or for training purposes. It is the only third time and passed. route within tier 2 that is exempt from the health charge. In 2015, the independent Migration Advisory Committee conducted a review of a number of potential Immigration (Health Charge) changes to the tier 2 route. It was asked specifically to (Amendment) Order 2017 look at the case for applying the health charge to users Motion to Approve of the tier 2 intra-company transfer route. While partners to the review pointed out that a large proportion of 2.23 pm intra-company transferees may be in receipt of private Moved by Baroness Vere of Norbiton healthcare, the MAC noted that they nevertheless have access to the NHS, whether they use it or not, and That the draft Order laid before the House on indeed there may be instances where they do need to 20 December 2016 be approved. make recourse to it—for example, for a GP referral to a private consultant. The MAC also noted that Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): My Lords, the contributions to a universal service are not made on House will be aware that the immigration health charge the basis of whether an individual makes use of that was introduced in April 2015 and is paid by non-European service, and that, for example, UK residents can opt Economic Area temporary migrants who apply for for private healthcare without paying less tax to reflect leave to enter for more than six months, or who apply their lower use of the NHS. to extend their stay. The charge, which is set at the The MAC therefore concluded that it could not see competitive level of £200 per annum, per migrant, and a good reason why intra-company transferees should at a discounted rate of £150 per annum for students be exempt from payment and recommended that this and youth mobility scheme applicants, ensures that group pay the health charge in line with other users of migrants make a fair and proportionate contribution the tier 2 route. The Government accepted this to the National Health Service in a manner commensurate recommendation and the draft order amends the principal with their immigration status,subject to limited exceptions. order to that effect. The increased cost to intra-company Those who pay the charge and are granted leave to transferees of paying the health charge is small, relative enter or remain in the UK currently receive NHS care to their expected income over the duration of their in the same way as a permanent resident, subject to stay in the UK. By applying the health charge to the same clinical need and waiting times, for as long as intra-company transferees, we estimate that an additional their leave remains valid. £136 million to £205 million could be raised for the In setting the level of the charge, careful consideration NHS over the coming 10 years. has been given to the range of health services available The second area of significant change is the explicit without charge to migrants, the valuable contribution exemption from the health charge for victims of modern that migrants make to our country and the need to slavery. Where a victim of modern slavery has been ensure that the UK remains an attractive destination trafficked, they already fall within an exemption on for global talent. Indeed, there is no evidence at present the face of the principal order. Where they have not to suggest that the charge has deterred the brightest been trafficked, the charge is waived. However, the and best from coming to the UK. In 2015, the recent review into the first six months of operation of Government estimated that the introduction of the the charge recommended that, rather than waiving the health charge could raise as much as £1.7 billion, at charge in these circumstances, an explicit exemption 2015-16 prices, over 10 years—an average of around should be set out on the face of the principal order. 1899 Immigration Order 2017 [LORDS] Immigration Order 2017 1900

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] people such as the homeless who cannot prove their The Government have now addressed this important right to treatment by providing the correct documents. point. The draft order makes it clear that all victims of We must also guard against any temptation to extend modern slavery—whether trafficked or not—applying this policy to urgent treatment. How do the Government for leave under modern slavery policies fall under an plan to ensure that this does not happen? explicit exemption. Health tourism should be properly addressed, but Turning to more minor changes, the draft order it is not particularly significant in terms of the overall also amends the principal order to make it clear that funding of the NHS. The recent government applications for further leave to remain as a visitor are announcement cannot mask the refusal to address the exempt from the charge. This is a minor, clarifying serious failures of care which are now routine across amendment that does not change the status quo. The the NHS as a result of impossible financial pressures. Government have been clear from the outset that all Only this week we have heard about increases in applications for visitor visas do not attract the health waiting times for operations, and in unexplained deaths charge. among those with mental health problems. One hospital trust in Kent has halted all non-urgent operations The draft order strengthens the wording of the until the end of the financial year. The Government principal order to ensure that migrants granted temporary need to tackle important problems such as staff shortages leave following a reconsideration of their application and retention and a lack of social care. Recent statements or an otherwise successful challenge to a refusal of reflect a warped sense of priorities. I hope that my leave must pay the charge when requested to do so. It right honourable friend Norman Lamb MP’scross-party also makes it clear that those granted an additional meeting with the Prime Minister last week will lead to period of leave on appeal must also pay a health a genuine consensual process to deliver a long-term charge for that additional period. These amendments settlement for the NHS and social care. are in line with the Government’s general policy that temporary migrants should make a proportionate Ultimately, the NHS must not lose the humanity contribution to the NHS through payment of the charge, and compassion that are the hallmarks of an institution irrespective of the process by which leave is granted. of which this country is rightly proud. Doctors do not see their jobs as being border guards or revenue collectors. Finally, and in order to provide certainty for those Can the Minister assure us that clinical staff will never migrants whose applications are already in train, Article 4 be expected to collect money? This would completely provides for transitional arrangements. The amendments change the relationship between doctor and patient. introduced through this draft order will not apply to Can she also assure us that hospital administrators an immigration application submitted to the Home will get funding for extra help, and if they do, will the Office before the order comes into force. policy be cost-effective? Talking of capacity, I heard a The Government believe that it is only right and fair Minister on the radio recently whom I felt was actually that migrants—including intra-company transferees— encouraging people to come from abroad to use our should contribute to the extensive and high-quality NHS—as long as they paid for it. As waiting lists and range of NHS services available to them during their queues in A&E and for GP appointments get longer, I stay, in line with their temporary immigration status. would have thought the last thing we should be doing It is also right and fair that victims of modern slavery is encouraging more customers from abroad. Can the should not pay the charge. I am delighted that this Minister say whether hospitals are charging a full draft order makes this explicit. I beg to move. cost-recovery amount—or more, or less? Does the hospital keep the money, or does it go straight to the Treasury like the rebate on drugs? Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her new role. We welcome the Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, this is the first exemptions and clarifications that she has just outlined. opportunity I have had to welcome the Minister to her I should like to use this opportunity to express some new role. I thank her for the explanation of the purpose concerns and ask some questions about the Government’s and thinking behind this order which we support. It policy of charging foreign nationals for the use of the brings into effect amendments to the Immigration NHS, and how this will work. (Health Charge) Order 2015. That order led to an annual immigration health charge, introduced, as the It is right that those who are not entitled to the free Minister said, on 6 April 2015, being imposed on use of our NHS should pay for their treatment—or it non-EEA nationals applying for leave to enter or should be paid for by their insurance or their Government. remain in the UK for a limited period. Those who pay Some hospitals have already introduced the policy it can access NHS services free of charge, apart from successfully but, irrespective of its merits, the focus on payments in respect of treatments or prescriptions for collecting the equivalent of 0.5% of the NHS’s annual which UK residents have to pay. spend reflects the Government’s skewed priorities. It The Minister has set out the reasons for making the ultimately serves to mask the main challenge facing amendments provided for in this order which, in essence, the health service—a lack of cash. remove the immigration health surcharge exemption The principle that those not eligible for free NHS of intra-company transferees and their dependants, care should pay up front for non-urgent treatment is extend the human trafficking exemption to include sound. However, there must be clear safeguards in victims of modern slavery and provide greater clarity place to prevent profiling of people who have surnames in the interpretation of some rules in the Immigration that sound “not British”, and to protect vulnerable (Health Charge) Order 2015. 1901 Immigration Order 2017[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Immigration and Nationality Order 2007 1902

I have two brief points. One of the amendments in additional money to the NHS to be spent in England, respect of ICT workers has emanated from a Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The surcharge recommendation of the Migration Advisory Committee. is an important source of new income for the NHS, Are there any committees or other bodies looking at which is shared by the NHS across the country using issues that might lead to further amendments to the the Barnett formula. Immigration (Health Charge) Order 2015? Or have we The amendments bring intra-company transferees now reached the stage where the Government can in line with other temporary migrants and provide an confirm that they have no reason to believe that further important clarification in respect of victims of modern amendments will be needed in the foreseeable future—and slavery. The health charge helps the NHS remain certainly not prior to our departure from the European sustainable, with migrants making a fair contribution Union? to our health services while ensuring that our country In the House of Commons the Government said, as remains the destination of choice for the brightest and the Minister has reiterated today, that the immigration the best. On that basis, I commend the order to the health charge collected £164 million for spending on House. the NHS in its first year of operation. These amendments could provide an additional minimum amount of £136 Motion agreed. million for the NHS over 10 years. Can the Government give an assurance that the money raised from the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) immigration health charge represents additional money (Amendment) Order 2017 for the NHS which would not have been available had Motion to Approve the charge not been in existence? The money raised must not simply be used to enable the Government to 2.43 pm reduce the amount they provide to the NHS by the sum raised by the health charge. Moved by Baroness Vere of Norbiton That the draft Order laid before the House on Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, I thank 11 January be approved. noble Lords for their contributions. I shall address the specific issues raised where I am able to do so. Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): My Lords, the I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that I purpose of this order is to make minor technical do not think this is a case of skewed priorities. It is, changes to the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) indeed, right and fair that we look to overseas visitors Order 2016, which remains in place and continues to to make a contribution to the cost of the National set out the overall framework and maximum amounts Health Service when they use it. The noble Baroness that can be charged for immigration and nationality seemed to imply that this was not a particularly large functions, as agreed by Parliament last year. problem. However, overseas nationals using the NHS The order before your Lordships’ House does not cost the NHS £2 billion a year, which I do not think is itself set fees; they are set by regulations which are an insignificant sum. Non-EEA migrants cost the updated annually. The regulations for 2017-18 fees are NHS £950 million a year.Again, that is not an insignificant due to be laid before Parliament in March. The minor sum. The cost for non-EEA temporary migrants, for technical changes made by this order include bringing example, amounts to £800 per person per year, which fees for entry clearance to the Channel Islands within is quite a lot. the scope of the 2016 order. This change is being made As regards the other issues raised by the noble following the extension of provision in the Immigration Baroness, I am responding on behalf of the Home Act 2014 to those jurisdictions by way of Orders in Office, not the Department of Health. Therefore, I Council, the effect of which will be to enable the hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I refer certain Secretary of State to set fees in relation to them. issues to the Department of Health for that department The order also makes express provision for the to answer their questions on those issues. However, I Secretary of State to charge for an approval letter in can address certain issues. The surcharge is collected respect of applications for entry clearance to the Isle by the Home Office but the NHS is currently, and will of Man as a tier 1 exceptional talent migrant. It will be, responsible for ensuring that charges are collected ensure that the scope of the charges set under the from the right patients. However, there will also be Immigration Act 2014 for above-basic Border Force safeguards to ensure that no vulnerable patient is officer services, such as attendance at premium airport denied care when they need it. lounges, or port-owned fast-track services, is broadened The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether there for the future, for example to cover above-basic services were any other committees or bodies that might provided at sea. The order also permits a charge to be make further changes to the order. Removing the set for providing information in addition to the current exemption for intra-company transferees was a services that include providing advice, training and recommendation of the Migration Advisory Committee, assistance. We consider that this charge will better as was mentioned. The Government are not aware of reflect the nature of the information and advice services any forthcoming committees or commissions that will we provide. make recommendations in connection with the surcharge. To be absolutely clear, this change does not affect However, as with all government policies, the health existing Home Office basic status checking services, charge is kept under regular review. The noble Lord for example those provided to employers or landlords also asked whether this money was additional cash for in the UK, which will continue to be provided free of the NHS. I can confirm that the surcharge brings in charge. It does not affect in-country services, for example 1903 Immigration and Nationality Order 2007[LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1904

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] may charge a person who applies for entry clearance calls to employers’or landlords’helplines,or the nationality to the Channel Islands, with the actual fees to be set in helpline, which will continue to be charged at local subsequent regulations. As I understand it, though, in rates. Nor will it affect the availability of information setting such a maximum fee—and, indeed, the maximum for sponsors and educators. This order makes provision fee in relation to the approval letter in connection with for international services only. Customers using these entry clearance to the Isle of Man—the level of that services are able to access more detailed information fee must be consistent with the Home Office’s current over and above the basic level of the service which is laid-down approved charging policy.On the assumption available online. This is a standard, free-to-use service that my understanding on that score is the case, I have available on GOV.UK in all cases. no questions or queries to raise on the order. We are also seeking to change the way in which fees for some information and advice are structured, adding Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, I thank the scope for a fixed fee in addition to the per-minute fee noble Lord for his contribution, and I can confirm currently provided for in the 2016 order. This is to that that is indeed the case. As I said earlier, we aim to accommodate likely changes to the overseas contact set out shortly the individual fee levels for 2017-18 in centre services, where a new service provider, who will regulations to be introduced by the negative procedure. assume responsibility for the service in May 2017, may This amendment to the 2016 fees order does not offer and charge for webchat and email services in the increase the maximum amounts that can be charged future. The proposed maximum amount that can be for any immigration or nationality service. The charged for these new services is based on the per-minute Government believe that those who use and benefit rate set out in the 2016 order. To be clear, under the most from the immigration system should contribute new contractual arrangements there are no plans to more to the cost of the system, reducing the burden on increase the per-minute fee for accessing telephone the taxpayer. It remains the Government’s ambition to services overseas. move towards a border, immigration and citizenship Lastly, the order will also update the description of system that is fully funded by those who use it. I commend an electronic visa waiver so that it accurately matches the order to the House. the process and policy intent, as set out in the Immigration Motion agreed. Rules. This service enables visitors from Oman, Kuwait, the UAE and Qatar to travel to the UK without a visa. I emphasise that we are not seeking to change the Brexit: Financial Services (European overarching framework for immigration and nationality Union Committee Report) fees, or the maximum fee levels that were agreed by Motion to Take Note Parliament and set out in the 2016 order. As I have already mentioned, the next set of immigration fees 2.50 pm regulations, which are due to be laid in Parliament in Moved by Baroness Falkner of Margravine mid-March, will come into force in April. They remain completely within the parameters agreed by Parliament That this House takes note of the Report from and in line with the impact assessment published with the European Union Committee Brexit: financial the 2016 order. services (9th Report, HL Paper 81). It is important that we strike a good balance between the economic interests of the UK and the need to Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD): My Lords, I maintain a sound immigration system. Be assured that am delighted to introduce this European Union this Government will ensure that fees for immigration Committee report. In doing so I congratulate the and nationality services enable the UK to retain its noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on her recent position as an attractive destination to work, study appointment to the Treasury and on her role as Minister and visit. I beg to move. in charge of “EU exit financial services”. I hope to have a very positive interaction with her in the future. In the wake of the referendum of 23 June last year, Lord Rosser (Lab): I thank the Minister once again the EU Select Committee agreed to undertake a series for explaining the purpose and thinking behind the of short, co-ordinated inquiries into the implications second order we are considering this afternoon. The of Brexit for various policy sectors. The Financial order makes changes to the Immigration and Nationality Affairs Sub-Committee began by looking into the (Fees) Order 2016, which sets out the maximum amount impact on financial services.The committee took evidence that the Secretary of State may charge for the provision from nine panels of witnesses—21 in total—during of certain immigration and nationality-related services September, October and November 2016 and received and products. In particular, this order extends certain written evidence. We are extremely grateful to all those provisions of the 2016 order to the Channel Islands who contributed to our work. and the Isle of Man. The powers that this order will At this juncture it is customary for a chair to thank give the Government in relation to the Channel Islands the members of the committee, but I do so today with and the Isle of Man have until now been exercised by particular emphasis, because we all, as a committee, the Government under the terms of other fees regulations worked at a frantic pace to produce this report in a and powers. timely manner so that the Government might take our In extending certain provisions of the 2016 order to views into account in setting their strategy for Brexit the Channel Islands, this order, among other things, and financial services. So far we have not had sight of sets the maximum fee which the Secretary of State their response. I also want to single out for particular 1905 Brexit: Financial Services [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Financial Services 1906 thanks the committee clerk, John Turner, who with vulnerable to political influence because the European depleted resources—as our policy analyst had been Commission has a role in deciding whether a country recruited by the Treasury—heroically managed to get is equivalent. us to this point. He was periodically assisted by Pippa Westwood, on loan from the EU Select Committee, We concluded that any bespoke deal should seek a and we owe her thanks as well. deal to bolster the current equivalence arrangements, to cover gaps in the regime and to ensure the continuation From the outset we were aware of the huge importance of equivalence decisions as regulation develops. There of the financial services industry to the UK economy. was, and still is, considerable uncertainty over the level The UK is the world’s leading exporter of financial of access to the single market that the UK will retain. services, with net exports in 2013 of $71 billion. The Our witnesses were consistent in advocating a transitional industry employs more than 1.1 million people—double period during which businesses could plan for and that if related professional services are included—and adjust to the new circumstances. We were told that a contributes around 7% of UK GDP. The implications “cliff edge”, with regulation and market access changing of a change to our trading status with the EU are suddenly and without sufficient warning, would represent potentially enormous. The consultancy Oliver Wyman a grave threat not only to the business interests of the estimated that £40 billion to £50 billion of the sector’s firms involved but to financial stability more generally. annual revenues—around a quarter of the total—were So the “new deal” scenario might prove extremely related to its business with the EU. damaging. The relationship between UK-based financial services I therefore welcome the Prime Minister’s reassurance providers and the EU is underpinned by a system of that the Government will seek a “phased process of so-called “passports”, which grant rights to do business implementation”. An early declaration on this transition across borders. This system is not as straightforward period by both parties—the UK and the EU—would as it first appears: passporting rights are provided for help allay the fears of businesses and possibly prevent by different pieces of EU legislation, affecting the them moving operations out of the UK on the basis of provision of different services, and their use does not a worst-case scenario. I draw noble Lords’ attention map onto the business models of firms in a straightforward here to the advice prepared by PricewaterhouseCoopers manner. Unpicking the reliance on passports is therefore for the Association for Financial Markets in Europe, complicated—we were told that even the firms themselves which found that it would take banks between two and did not have firm grasp of their own reliance on four years to put in place contingency plans for a hard passporting—but it was clear that UK-based firms Brexit. were likely to suffer from loss of access to the single market and the passporting rights that came with it. The UK has been Europe’s dominant financial That has become more evident since our report was centre for some time. It has been particularly dominant published. in recent years in derivatives clearing through central As we were undertaking our inquiry it was not clear counterparties. In April 2013 the UK accounted for what model of engagement with the single market the half the world’s turnover of interest rate derivatives, UK would seek. The Prime Minister, in setting out and one-third of foreign exchange derivatives. It was the UK’s negotiating aims on 17 January, and in the even more dominant in euro-denominated interest subsequent White Paper of 2 February, said that the rate derivatives, accounting for nearly three-quarters UK would seek a free trade agreement to allow for, of world turnover. “the freest possible trade in goods and services between the UK This has drawn unwelcome attention from our EU and the EU’’, partners. In 2011 the European Central Bank launched but she ruled out, its location policy, which would have required euro- “membership of the Single Market”. denominated trades to be cleared in the eurozone. The Government successfully resisted this at the European This would also rule out any automatic passporting Court of Justice, but it is possible that the scheme rights: they would need to be negotiated as part of the could be revived—with appropriate legislative changes. bespoke agreement she is aiming for. It was notable that the President of France, François If the UK were unable to negotiate a bespoke deal Hollande, made such a suggestion on 28 June, just five on access, it would have to fall back on third country days after the referendum. equivalence provisions. However, we found that these were, So the political incentive is there, and so are the legal means, with some tweaking. But would it be wise “patchy, unreliable and vulnerable to political influence”. to remove London’s ability to clear euro-denominated They are patchy because they do not cover the full trades? Clearing works through counterparties posting range of activities in which businesses engage: a bank a margin, or collateral, with the clearing house. Because might be able to rely on provisions under MiFID II for this is done centrally, the margin can be netted across its investment activities but could not carry out traditional multiple trades in multiple currencies, reducing the banking services because the relevant legislation amount of collateral required. Research by Clarus underpinning that, CRD IV,does not include equivalence Financial Technology suggests that disaggregating the provisions. Third country equivalence provisions are euro component of one clearing house’s operation— unreliable because financial regulation is liable to change: LCH.Clearnet’s, for example—would cost the financial as EU legislation evolved, the UK would have to services industry $77 billion in additional margin, adapt its own regulation in order to remain equivalent, which would then not be available to lend to the real and be assessed to be so every single time. They are economy. 1907 Brexit: Financial Services [LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1908

[BARONESS FALKNER OF MARGRAVINE] so. The capital markets directive, led by my noble Our witnesses expressed doubts about whether a friend Lord Hill of Oareford, and how that has changed clearing operation comparable to that in London could direction is just one example of Britain’s influence no be migrated to another European city. Some suggested longer being in the right place. that New York was the only plausible alternative We made our decision on 23 June and we must now location for such a service. Of course, any revival of make the best of it. This report will help the Government the location policy would also apply to New York. to achieve that. I was particularly pleased to read This suggests that the benefits of the UK’s clearing paragraphs 109 and 110, which refer to the transitional system currently enjoyed by businesses throughout period and trying to avoid a cliff edge. As the noble Europe would be lost or greatly diminished. Ultimately, Baroness has just said, the Prime Minister has been it would not be in the EU’s economic interest to firm on that and given a positive lead, which is to be repatriate euro clearing. We hope that pragmatism will welcomed. Third-party equivalence and passporting prevail. are also important. In paragraph 56, the committee This leads me to my final point. The real economy tells us that the Government are, in the EU benefits from the financial services provided “analysing the difference between the opportunities afforded by in the United Kingdom to an extent that militates passporting and third-country equivalence”. against any large-scale attempt to prevent UK-based It would be helpful if the Minister told us where the firms doing business with the EU. We heard a lot in Government have got to with that. our inquiry about the financial services “ecosystem”: Paragraph 58 refers to possible regulatory divergence the various services provided in the UK that interconnect between the UK and EU, and indeed between the UK in such a way that the effects of unpicking the ecosystem and US. I thought this was a very good point to make would be unpredictable. Unless another European because, since the report was published, we have all centre could replicate that system, real businesses in seen in the press what has been happening. We have a the EU would lose out. new President Donald—in fact we have two President London has recently been ranked as the world’s Donalds: one in the EU and one in America. President number one financial centre again. Nowhere else in Donald in America has made it absolutely clear that it the EU comes close. Luxembourg is 12th and Frankfurt is “America First”—and, indeed, America second and is 19th. We were not convinced that another EU third—with the rest of the world about fourth. He has location could step up and provide the services as been backed up by Patrick McHenry, the Republican efficiently and effectively as the UK currently does. If vice-chairmanof theHouseFinancialServicesCommittee, the economic argument trumps the political one, the who wrote to Janet Yellen at the Federal Reserve, EU should be willing to do a deal—but deals are warning her that: ultimately dependent on rationality as well as goodwill. “Continued participation in international forums such as the We hope that the UK Government will approach these Financial Stability Board, the Basel Committee on Banking and negotiations with enormous goodwill and pragmatism, Supervision and the International Association of Insurance Supervisors is predicated on achieving the objectives set by the as the costs to the real economy of both the UK and new Administration”. the EU—and to real people’s lives—could be very That is worrying. high indeed. I beg to move. Let us take away the froth: we all know that America has always put America first in international negotiations, 3.02 pm but what worries me is America not standing by its international obligations. Can the Minister say whether The Earl of Caithness (Con): My Lords, I thank my there was any indication in the Prime Minister’s meeting friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, for her with President Donald of the USA—President Trump— introduction and the rest of the committee for its that the US will not stand by those international work. Sadly, I am no longer on that committee so I did obligations? If it does not, it is serious not just for the not take part in this report; but I declare my interest, UK but for the EU and the rest of the world. Sir Jon which is that I remember the 1950s and 1960s very well Cunliffe at the Bank of England has said: and do not want our grandchildren to live under such “It is important that we have proportionate, highest quality years as we lived under when Britain was going downhill regulation – robust and in line with best international standards rapidly. One reason why Britain has turned that corner … The UK – in order to be a successful financial centre, you need is the financial services, which are the whole subject of good regulation … robust regulation and … regulators that have this report. credibility and experience”. Although the noble Baroness has said that London Those are very wise words from Sir Jon, with whom I is the world’s leading financial centre, it has no divine had the pleasure of working when I was a Treasury right to be. It was not when I was a child, but it has Minister. Abiding by those international obligations is now got to that position—and there are many countries so important. Sir Jon is also quoted in paragraph 51 of interested in taking it away. Our change in status as we the report: go from within to outside the EU is undoubtedly an “If we want globalised financial services, we all have to have extra threat to the dominance of London, and another confidence in each other’s regulatory and supervisory machinery”. undermining factor. The other side of the argument is That encapsulates it extremely well. of course that the EU has lost a major player in its It is not just a trade negotiation between the political financial discussions. Britain was always at the forefront. parties that is important, but agreement between the When I was a Treasury Minister, we were at the regulators. Can the Minister confirm that the intention forefront of changing regulations in Europe—we took is that provisions on international regulatory co-operation the lead because nobody else had the experience to do in financial services supervision will be included in all 1909 Brexit: Financial Services [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Financial Services 1910 future trade agreements, both with the EU and other We have no idea where we will end up at the end of states, and that this would be an additional requirement our negotiations with the EU. I hope that the press in the future mission of the Financial Conduct Authority and both Houses of Parliament will let the Government and Prudential Regulation Authority? get on with the negotiations and do the best job we I turn from the report specifically to a wider view of can. One good thing about Brexit is that if it all goes financial services, because if we are no longer members wrong, we have nobody to blame but ourselves. of the EU, we will have to increase our trade around the world. There is no doubt that there is a new world 3.14 pm financial order. Europe, the old aunt to the world, is Lord Desai (Lab): My Lords, it is a pleasure to getting even older and more irrelevant. In a recent follow the noble Earl, and I also thank our chairman, report PwC said that by 2040, the E7—Brazil, China, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, for guiding us India, Indonesia, Mexico, Russia and Turkey—could through this extremely complex subject. The more I be double the size of the G7, which comprises the UK, study the problem of Brexit, the more complicated it Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the US. appears to be, and I am sure that no one, when they That will certainly change the dynamics. PwC went on ventured into this territory,knew exactly how complicated to predict that, whereas in 2016 five countries in the it was. world top 20 of projected GDP rankings, based on As the noble Earl also said, the City has seen both purchasing power parity, were in Europe, by 2050 good times and bad times. The 1950s and the 1960s there will only be three, all at a lower level than now. saw an involuntary exit from the sterling area. I do not One might think that gives us a great opportunity know whether noble Lords remember the sterling in dealing with the E7, but then comes the crunch. area, but it was not a great thing after India had TheCityUK has done a lot of work on service trade become independent and various former colonies began restrictions and produced an index. It is interesting to have their own monetary policy. The City was lucky that, on that indexed basis, the E7 countries—which in then having the Eurodollar market—a result of the are going to be double the size of the G7 countries—are folly of American taxation policy—and soon after, the most restrictive with regard to accountancy, when the US renounced its dollar-gold link, a huge commercial banking, insurance and legal services. We market in foreign exchange transactions sprang up will have a tough job breaking into those markets. We and the City was ready for that market. have a lot of work to do, and if the US is not working At about that time—in 1971-72—we entered the to the international standard it will be even harder. I European Economic Community, as it then was. In a agree, therefore, with what the noble Baroness and her sense, therefore, we entered the European Economic committee say in their report. If the City of London Community at a time when the City had recovered loses its status as the world’s premier financial centre, from its gentle decline and got into totally new activities it will not be to other countries in Europe but to for which it had, or soon got, the expertise. We know, overseas—to New York, Singapore and China. therefore, that the City can suffer a shock and respond Can the Minister also comment on currency to it. devaluation, through which we have the potential to At the same time, we have to decide among really mess up the world and our financial services? ourselves—or, I hope, the Government will—what is We have been told that the euro is undervalued and the the maximum loss that we could suffer. One of the best American dollar overvalued. Does the Treasury think negotiating tactics is to figure out the worst-case scenario that a currency devaluation between countries will that we could face, and then find out if there is any start, which would be hugely damaging to us? way of avoiding it. The worst-case scenario is, obviously—as I said—that if there is not a good deal, I will comment briefly on what I call “language and we walk away with no deal. A no-deal scenario would perception”. Language is hugely important in Europe. mean no passporting, no equivalence and starting Phrases such as “common ground” and “a good from scratch. We should mentally work out what that compromise” are perfectly acceptable in Europe, while would mean for the City. Among our witnesses, some here they are portrayed in the press as wishy-washy were, I would say, rather complacent, saying, “Oh, we and as Britain giving everything away. It is not as the are just so good that they will have to come to us”. press portrays it: it is 27 countries all having to give They say that our eco-system—I was fascinated by something and take something to reach a good that word, because I am sure that most of those people compromise. I am greatly concerned that language do not like any of this global warming stuff, but they will play a big part in our negotiations, and I hope the use the word—is so fine and beautifully calibrated that Minister is fully aware that this could be a major problem. our sheer competitive advantage will make them come As for perception, a lot of people are influenced by to us. I am not so sure about that; it would mean that it. If the perception is that Britain is not doing as well we do not need to worry about passporting or equivalence as before, that will compound our difficulties. One and we would still come out on top on sheer competitive need only look at today’s papers: it is predicted that advantage. Just as we are willing to suffer an economic 30,000 jobs will be lost—that is the headline, the bad loss for the sake of our sovereignty, they are capable of perception. That, however,is 0.5% of the people working suffering economic loss through their reluctance to in the financial services industry, and although the come to London. We must not assume that they are figure comes from the Bruegel think tank, it is at the going to be terribly rational and will come to us. I keep worst end of TheCityUK’s projections, which thinks, hearing that, and I doubt it very much. at the other end of the scale, that as few as 3,000 jobs One advantage for us is that the regulatory system could go. Perception is of major importance. of financial markets is global and not confined to the 1911 Brexit: Financial Services [LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1912

[LORD DESAI] First, on 19 October a man by the name of Simon EU: the EU melds in to the regulatory system headed Kirby,the Economic Secretary to Her Majesty’sTreasury, by the Bank of International Settlements, the IMF, came to see us. The noble Lord, Lord Desai, asked and so on. Wehave played a major part in the architecture him about clearing and said: of that system, so, in or out, we shall continue to be “We have had conflicting evidence about what will happen to relevant to the architecture of the global financial clearing houses”. system. To that extent, we ought to be able to put it to The response from Simon Kirby was: the EU that, in or out, the rules that we all have to “There is a lot of noise about clearing. The whole of Europe, obey are pretty common, and they are almost the the UK included, would be worse off if that particular part of the equivalent of equivalence. We all have to follow certain financial services that London offers was dismantled and redistributed global rules, so there cannot be too much of a disruption across Europe”. between us and them in the area of financial regulation. In a further question, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, I am not worried either that although we may talked about clearing and Simon Kirby said: establish equivalence in today’s terms, in the future “It is an element of the negotiations. Is it the most important they might change—and then what will we do? I do element? Probably not, but it is … significant”. not think they will change arbitrarily, independently That sounded complacent to me. of the global system, because we will all have to dovetail with each other in that system. The technology On 2 November we then had a visit from Xavier is changing so fast that we all have to be ready as new Rolet, the chief executive of the London Stock Exchange products and technologies come up. The framing of Group, and I quoted Simon Kirby’s evidence to him. financial regulations will therefore have to be a fast, We were aware that Xavier Rolet had earlier indicated global and innovative process, and I am sure that we that 100,000 jobs were at stake if clearing were to will play our part in that. relocate. He confirmed that, Can we work out what we prize most within our “we stand by our estimate of 100,000 jobs”. interests in keeping the financial centre in the front? It When I pressed him a little further as to where these might turn out that immigration is a crucial topic. It jobs were, he said that he would, might be that our need to access the best talent “provide a more detailed estimate”. internationally, and therefore have flexible immigration That was to happen “reasonably shortly” and so it did, rules, will be more central to our position on the in that on 11 November we had further written evidence financial sector than anything else. In agreeing to sent from Xavier Rolet, together with an EY report whatever we agree with the EU, one thing that we that had been prepared for the Stock Exchange. He ought to remember is to retain the flexibility of admitting said that the report estimates that up to 232,000 combined highly skilled global experts in the financial markets, financial and non-financial jobs throughout the UK and not make the mistake of going overboard in could be lost. This was a detailed 44-page report, restricting immigration by not distinguishing between which sets out where those jobs are. Those 232,000 those who are likely to be helpful to us and those who jobs suggest to me that we are talking about the would be less helpful. livelihoods of 1 million people. In the final analysis, we will have to be ready for the The last thing that we had was not presented to our worst-case scenario—a repeat of the sterling area scenario, committee but—as things keep moving—was the White as it were—and to hope that new markets spring up Paper from Her Majesty’s Government on 1 February. for us while the damage is minimised. At the same Perhaps it is better to call it a grey book. In its section time we ought to try as far as possible, consistent with 8 on pages 42 and 43, there are a few paragraphs about our general aims of a hard Brexit, not to lose an financial services. Paragraph 8.25 says: advantage which we could retain. “In our new strategic partnership we will be aiming for the freest possible trade in financial services between the UK and EU 3.22 pm Member States”. Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD): My Lords, I too pay So Simon Kirby’s complacency has now moved to an tribute to my noble friend Lady Falkner of Margravine, aim. Where is the determination? Will it come from who has steered us through several of our deliberations the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who I now over the last year or so. The report, like all those which congratulate on her new role? come from our EU committees, is based on the evidence. What those of your Lordships who have not been on 3.27 pm the committee are getting is what we have heard from other people and the questions that we have been able Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB): My Lords, I declare to put to them. my interests as noted in the report. After the figures of There is no doubt that financial services are a potential job losses given by the noble Lord, Lord highly significant sector of the United Kingdom economy. Shutt, I hope to cheer the House up a bit. I have come We are told that they employ 1.1 million people, to think that since the report which we are discussing two-thirds of whom are outside London. It seems to was published in December, the impression it gave me that 1.1 million jobs are likely to support 4 million about the problems presented by Brexit for the UK’s United Kingdom citizens. On any basis that is significant, businesses and financial services is perhaps too pessimistic. serious and important. I have three points to make in As a member of the sub-committee which produced my contribution, which really concerns livelihoods. I the report under the courteous and skilful chairmanship will come to these in order because I want to speak of of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, I believe that it some of the people who came to see us. correctly reports the importance of our financial services 1913 Brexit: Financial Services [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Financial Services 1914 to the UK economy; the unreliability of the equivalence Those are important issues for companies but there and passporting regimes which enable UK financial are also important issues for individual citizens. One institutions to provide services to the rest of the EU; illustration is the provision of insurance. It would be and the need for a regime to ensure that UK financial tedious for UK motorists if they had to start applying services do not face a cliff edge when the UK leaves for green cards again or pay extra insurance for trips the EU. All that is correct, but the reason why I have to Europe because it is no longer recognised that UK become more optimistic is that this report is insurance policies provide the same minimum cover as understandably UK focused. It is about what UK their EU counterparts, but it would also be tedious for businesses want and need and not so much about what European motorists if their policies were no longer EU businesses want and need. When the issue is accepted in the UK. A similar point applies to the considered from the EU perspective, more grounds for European health insurance card. optimism emerge. The reference to avoiding a cliff The old injunction against cutting off one’s nose to edge implies that there is a sharp fall on the other side spite one’s face is particularly apt in both the UK’s of the cliff, but when the interests of the EU partners and the EU’s approach to these matters. In all these are taken into account, I wonder whether that implication areas we must hope that the negotiations take proper is correct. account of the mutual interests of both sides and are The report received many representations from not driven by ideology. outside—for example, from the British Banking Association—which urged the need for a transition 3.34 pm period to avoid the cliff edge, which has already been referred to. It is widely recognised that the phrase “a Viscount Eccles (Con): My Lords, it is very usual to transition period” has two meanings. It can mean an say how pleased one is to follow the previous speaker extension of the period in which existing arrangements but I find myself in a slight embarrassment because I continue to apply while a new bilateral agreement is so completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Butler, negotiated. It can also mean a period after a new that I am not going to be able to put it without bilateral agreement is reached before it comes into repetition and nothing like so well. I congratulate the effect so that businesses on both sides have time to sub-committee and its chairman on this report. It is a adjust to the new arrangement. Certainly a transitional very useful document and needs to be studied with period—in both senses of the phrase—is better than a great care. It has been slightly overtaken since the cliff edge, but a rapid agreement respecting the mutual days of the referendum by the 12 principles and the interests of both sides is better than either. The refrain White Paper. Nevertheless, that gives us a theme that we most insistently hear from businesses is that which is “exit from” and “a new partnership with”. I they want certainty and they want it as soon as possible. 100% endorse everybody who says that we need and A report by an official working group for the European want a new and productive partnership with the EU Parliament’s Committee on Economic and Monetary and this needs to be negotiated with the best possible Affairs, seen by the Guardian newspaper, warns of the will on both sides. importance of the London market to the EU partners. I hope we can achieve an agreement within the two According to the Guardian, it says: years. There I very much agree again with the noble “The exclusion of the main European financial centre”— Lord, Lord Butler. I do not see the argument that two that is, London— years is never going to be enough as a positive one. I “from the internal market could have consequences in terms of regret that people keep saying two years is not enough. jobs and growth in the EU. It is in the interest of EU 27 and the The important thing about the two years is to reach an UK to have an open discussion of this point”. agreement and then to be clear, because we have a new It is relevant that, while 5,500 UK firms benefit from partnership, on how we are going to handle all the passports for trading financial services in the EU, changes that will inevitably follow after two years, and more than 8,000 EU firms benefit from passports for changes would have followed whether we remained a trading into the UK. It does not follow that we can member or not. take equivalence and passporting regimes for granted Within those two years there is nothing more important but I believe it does follow that the EU partners have to negotiate than financial services. In considering the an interest in not using them in a vindictive manner. negotiation we should take very careful account of the I do not go along with TheCityUK in its view present position. As the noble Lord, Lord Desai, said, reported last week that Brexit will enable London to the background is very complex and quite troubling. become more attractive to worldwide businesses by After all, 2008 is not so long ago and many things tearing up those parts of the EU regulatory regime happened then which were unexpected. Although we which UK firms find finicky and burdensome. It will have made much progress since then, there is still a still be necessary for the UK to retain harmony with great deal of risk out there in the world as a whole. EU regulations. This may involve conforming to regimes Indeed, I think we would be incorrect to think about and requirements which we will have no formal role in financial services in the way that we might think about formulating but it does mean that we will have a the effect of the single market on, say, the building of mutual interest in keeping close to each other. Since aeroplanes or the production of motor cars.The European the UK has often been a leader in formulating effective context does run there to a large degree but it does not regulation, this is likely to be in the interests of both run in financial services because they are truly global. sides. Certainly, when the UK’s approaches have differed In the G20, which is representative of two-thirds of from those of our EU partners in the past, it has not the world and 85% of its economic activity, we have been because the UK has been less rigorous. got six members of the EU and the European Union 1915 Brexit: Financial Services [LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1916

[VISCOUNT ECCLES] More fundamentally: itself, and based in the Bank for International Settlements “Negotiations on the UK’s new relationship with the EU are there is the Basel Committee, again with nine EU likely to take longer than the withdrawal negotiations under members and the EU and the Financial Services Board. Article 50”. Much of what has been done which applies to Europe, That is a very serious problem. The report also states: which has 7% of the world’s population, has been “A transitional period will therefore be needed in relation to achieved by these international institutions.The European financial services following the completion of the Article 50 Union, some of its members and ourselves have been process, when the UK leaves the EU. This may need to be adapted very deeply involved in all that. and extended in the light of subsequent negotiations on a new So far, so much the better as a result of all those long-term relationship with the EU. This will enable firms and efforts since 2008, but this is not a time to disrupt the others such as regulators to adapt to any new business conditions”. progress. It is not a time in which either the 27 or we There has been a lot of coverage in the press of the have an interest in disrupting the processes which have Article 50 Bill, which has now successfully passed its been going on. That highlights the partnership, the Commons stages and will come to us when we resume need for it to be approached positively and the need after the mini-recess that is just about to begin. It is for it to work. very interesting to observe how the intelligent Just as a note of dissent, there is the question of the commentaries in various parts of the press—but not dealing and settlement in euros. If you look at that on all of them, unfortunately—are coming increasingly its own, changing the rules in the way that has been to the conclusion that it would be much better to suggested is nothing more nor less than a trade barrier maintain the status quo in the relationship between and would be very disruptive. It cannot be in anybody’s the new separate UK total market—financial and interest to generate that disruption. other markets, including physical markets—and the On passporting and equivalence, I hope that the rest of the EU. effect of the great repeal Bill will be that on the day we I was therefore very impressed when the Prime exit, we continue to abide by all the law and regulation Minister in her Lancaster House speech outlining her which has come to us through the European Union. plans and the details said: Logically, that means that equivalence is there. I cannot “I know that this—and the other reasons Britain took such a quite see what the argument against it would be. If we decision—is not always well understood among our friends and get to that day, the question then becomes: what do allies in Europe. And I know many fear that this might herald the the deals say about the way in which we and the beginning of a greater unravelling of the EU. 27 approach any changes that they or we feel are But let me be clear: I do not want that to happen. It would not necessary? In that sense, we would have a “transition be in the best interests of Britain. It remains overwhelmingly and period” that would never cease, because we are going compellingly in Britain’s national interest that the EU should to need to have arrangements for dealing with changes succeed. And that is why I hope in the months and years ahead we as they take place. I am more optimistic than some will all reflect on the lessons of Britain’s decision to leave”. other people who approach this problem. I join the Astonishingly it has not been noticed by many noble Lord, Lord Butler, in that optimism. people, but in the first paragraph of her Sunday Telegraph article on 8 January the Prime Minister emphasised that the Brexit decision was only part of the reaction 3.42 pm as a result of those who voted no in the referendum. Lord Dykes (CB): My Lords, it is a pleasure to The rest of it was a general disaffection with the state follow the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles. I have always of people in the British economy, their feeling of job respected the sensible approach he has to these practical insecurity, older people feeling they were being left matters of markets and business. I add my thanks to out—although pensions have been more generous in the other speakers in this debate, particularly the very recent years—and, of course, 16 and 17 year-olds were distinguished, competent and professional chairman grumbling because they were not included in the voting of the committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of system this time round. Margravine, and her colleagues who produced this There was an astonishing mixture of things in an excellent report. This is a complicated area, but the advisory, opinion-giving referendum. We have to bear report is not too long. that in mind. I make no criticism of the Prime Minister; Unusually, I do not agree with my noble friend she was not herself elected and she could not be under Lord Butler who said that he feels very optimistic, in the system. She took over from the previous Prime contrast to this report. The report is realistic, but it Minister, Mr Cameron, whose vote was less than espouses a not irrational, not excessive, but sensible one-quarter of the total voting population. I believe and proper degree of pessimism about the difficulties that Theresa May knows that the more she thinks we will see in the future. about it, the more she has to sustain the very good There are many warnings in this excellent report, relationship that we ought to have with the EU. and I shall quote briefly two significant parts of it. Sixty per cent either abstained or voted against the “We conclude that, if the current passporting regime is not maintained”— referendum result. That meant that the total amount and we cannot assume that it is necessarily going to of the population will have enormous second thoughts. be— Those second thoughts are developing. We see the “the Government should seek a deal to bolster the current equivalence post coming in and more and more emails, particularly arrangements for third country access, to cover gaps in the regime on the financial sector and worries about the famous and to ensure the continuation of equivalence decisions as financial London market. I declare an interest tangentially as a services regulation develops”. member in those days of the London Stock Exchange 1917 Brexit: Financial Services [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Financial Services 1918 and a partner in a big institutional firm. We were not instructions, regulations and requirements will be inserted part of the financial markets, as such, although we into the repeal Bill if we maintain the status quo in were indirectly. We were all very proud of what the city all the markets in Europe that we are suddenly so has achieved and of the London financial markets keen on. becoming the leading market in the world. It is a The whole thing is becoming more and more shaky tremendous asset. It is ironic that the very market that as an approach for a mature Government in a mature has sustained and cultivated the success of the euro Parliament in a mature country. This country needs to itself as a currency—the main market in the world—is recover the self-confidence we had as an upstanding in a country where a good number of people have and successful member of the European Union, whatever become increasingly psychologically afraid of the euro, the future structure and decisions may be. The Article because we were driven out of the exchange rate 50 Bill has only just started. There is a long, painful mechanism in humiliating circumstances in 1992. That and bumpy road to come. No one can predict how it is has lingered as a feeling. going to turn out, but I think the second-thought Since the war, there have been eight devaluations of syndrome is becoming increasingly powerful. Britain’s currency—three by government action and five in the marketplace. The recent one when the referendum result was announced was modest, and 3.52 pm not too bad against the dollar and the euro. That is not The Earl of Kinnoull (CB): My Lords, it is a pleasure a good background for us to be too overoptimistic to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, with his lovely about our ability to do what we were intending to do clarity of expression and thinking all round. I declare for those who did vote in the referendum and voted my interests as set out in the register, particularly in just about Brexit and nothing else. respect of Hiscox insurance group and Schroders plc. I think there was also a blending and mingling of I warmly join in the many congratulations for the all those emotions, not least the fear of immigrants. noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, and her Theresa May as Home Secretary was responsible with committee and staff on producing in double-quick others for not bothering to invoke some of the articles time a carefully thought through and thought-provoking of the Rome treaty—the TFEU as it now known—that report. gave some restrictive possibilities to limit the number I will confine my remarks to three high-level areas of immigrants as if there was no reason to have a and not descend into the detail. The first is people. free-for-all, which we seem to be accepting, including There has been a lot of debate and comment from all from Romania. parts of the House about the 3 million people from the The definition of optimism given by the noble EU 27 who are here in Britain. A strong moral case Lord, Lord Butler, is, I think, a little esoteric for the has been made, saying that the uncertainty they are purposes of this debate. It reminds me of the lovely living with should be made certain. old Hollywood joke: the true definition of optimism There are probably two other things relevant to this was a 98-year old man who got married for the seventh debate to think about, the first being the need to time and deliberately bought a new house near a engender a good atmosphere as we begin the negotiations. school—that kind of optimism, maybe. We have to I should also have said that I am a Member of the face up to the realities of this difficult matter. European Union Select Committee, and in that capacity In the debate last autumn in the Moses Room on visited Strasbourg a couple of weeks ago for three the single currency, I noticed how the noble Earl, Lord days. We met 17 MEPs from more than 10 countries Caithness, praised the euro for being a successful and were able to talk about a lot of issues, both on and currency. It is now the second world reserve currency off the record. What was interesting was how many of after the US dollar. It is getting closer and closer to the these people had friends and relatives living in the UK US dollar. The European Union, of course, has a and how they too felt the uncertainty, in a slightly much lower overall national or international debt vicarious way. It would be good to address that, which coefficient than the United States. As noble Lords would help to engender the very positive atmosphere know, the difference is $19 trillion for the federal we will need at the start of what will be complex and Government in the USA and $12 trillion for the long-lasting negotiations. European Union with 500 million people. The second and possibly harder-hitting point is the There is a lot to be working for. In this feeling that old City adage that capital follows talent. In my we have a lot of negotiations to come, I wish the commercial career, I have seen that adage acted out Minister very well in terms of the details and add my time and again. The Minister has a tremendous congratulations on her new post. The conclusions are commercial career behind her too, and a wonderful, more and more to do with somehow leaving the European sharp and seasoned brain. I am sure many here are Union in a formalistic sense, but keeping all the thinking what I am thinking: that it is jolly good news relationshipsgoing—themarkets,thephysicalrelationships that she has appeared at this time for our country in and the acquis communautaire. Of course, it will be this role. She will be a great help. I have managed put into what is going to be the repeal Bill, if it comes financial services businesses, including in continental along. I do not use the adjective “great”, by the way, Europe, for a number of years, using passports of because I have my doubts about it. Therefore, we are course, and in Bermuda using the equivalence regime. ending up with the same kind of bureaucratic input Everything that one did was about trying to manage that people who did not like Europe were madly the talent and keep them attracted to and retained in complaining about when they said that the European the business, and when new talent was needed, to Union was far too bureaucratic and heavy. All those attract it. Anything that damages the ability of businesses 1919 Brexit: Financial Services [LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1920

[THE EARL OF KINNOULL] I cannot resist talking about optimism, because to attract and retain talent is definitely not in our others have. Regarding the bits that I know—the national interest, and I worry enormously that the insurance sector and to a lesser extent the fund uncertainty that people from the EU 27 in the financial management sector—I am in the Butler camp. For services sector are living under at the moment is doing those sectors, good and sensible deals can and probably just that. That therefore needs to be coped with, and I will be done, and I feel reasonably optimistic. I do not would very much welcome the Minister’s comments at all underestimate the very many hard yards ahead. I on that line of thinking. commend again the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of The second line of thinking, again born out of my Margravine, for her tremendous report. business experience, concerns the mindset we should have going into the negotiations. Our mindset should 4.01 pm be very much about having regard to the interests of Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, I too would like the 500 million in the EU 28—including the United to express my sincere thanks to the noble Baroness, Kingdom—rather than to the narrow interests of the Lady Falkner, her committee and the members of the 65 million in the UK. In my experience with repeat EU Financial Affairs Sub-Committee for producing order customers—the EU 27 are most certainly repeat- this report as well as to all those who have spoken order customers of UK plc—at the end of every in this afternoon’s debate. I am grateful to the transaction one needs to achieve equity in the committee for looking at this issue first of all. Having consideration that has passed between the parties. read the report, I think it is clear this decision was a Everything is about communication, and again, it wise one, given the number of knowledge gaps that would be extremely helpful to make sure that our own undoubtedly exist both in government and industry, people who are engaged in the negotiation at every and the lack of a strong evidence base which will be level have that mindset. required. I saw as well during our three days in Strasbourg In the months following the referendum, the overriding that a number of what one might call macho statements concern has been on what our future relationship with by political commentators and politicians were being Europe and the rest of the world will look like. In that, reported through the British press and other media. there has been an implicit assumption that we have a The lingua franca in Strasbourg and Brussels is of sufficient knowledge, capacity and basis upon which course English, so everyone reads the British press and to make such decisions. The people of this country watches the BBC and CNN,for example.Those statements voted to leave the European Union, and it is our duty were being faithfully reported, and it is not helpful to to facilitate that. That being said, it will be a process the sentiment there if it is seen that we are not having that goes against all the natural instincts of the Houses regard to the 500 million but solely to the 65 million. of Parliament. We are not as institutions good at Again, I would appreciate some comments on that. making a lot of difficult decisions quickly. It will be a When we come to the negotiation, there are certain strain. That is why reports like the one we are debating sectors where we have an incredibly strong hand, and today are vital prisms through which we can explore we should not play that hand ungenerously. One is the such complex issues. But even such reports, produced reinsurance sector, which I am very familiar with, and debated in such a short period of time, have to be where we have the strongest hand. So we should act considered in the current political climate. I wonder, generously and be seen to be doing that, because that for example, how different this report would have been will help us in sectors where possibly we have a weaker if we had heard from the Prime Minister prior to its hand. publication. It will come as no surprise to noble Lords that I am The third area I want to talk about is the cliff edge interested in process. I am interested in the mechanics and the very helpful paragraphs in the report about of the system. This report confirmed my suspicions that, beginning at paragraph 100, and the transitional that at present we are not sufficiently prepared for the arrangements. Again, I am happy to report from monumental task of extracting ourselves from the Strasbourg—where the cliff edge came up—that there European Union. I do not doubt the determination of was a generally warm feeling towards the transitional the Government in wanting to maintain a strong and arrangements on the part of MEPs. They are just vibrant financial service sector here in the UK. However, MEPs, but I do feel that their warmth is probably I doubt whether they have the strategy to achieve this. reflected in their countries. I am going to mix metaphors I fear that, instead of a clear plan, the Government are in an appalling way now, but there was certainly a clinging on to the notion that our position as a global feeling that the cliff edge cuts both ways. They too felt leader in financial services is unshakeable. that this was important. Many noble Lords this afternoon have discussed I want to sound a warning bell, again born out of this issue, and there has been a general conversation business experience. As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, about being sensible, about this being two-sided and said, businesses hate uncertainty. Using just an interim about Europe needing us as much as we need Europe. arrangement, with the ability to push a horrible negotiation There have been conversations in Strasbourg and the down the road for two or three years, is possibly rest of Europe where that impression has come across. damaging to business as well. We should try to sort The problem is that the negotiations will not necessarily out everything we possibly can in these two years, be conducted by rational people looking at economic putting into a transitional arrangement only those advantage; they will be conducted, dare I say, by things that have to be put there. If we do not, we will politicians, who on occasions have been known to be cause damage to business. irrational—indeed, tragically irrational. 1921 Brexit: Financial Services [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Financial Services 1922

Our lack of knowledge is well illustrated by passporting, comment on the domestic policy of the US, but surely which has become the issue to be discussed whenever when minimum standards of financial regulation are Brexit and financial services are mentioned. Passporting at risk we have a responsibility to advocate measures is obviously related to equivalence—and, separately, which were designed to protect consumers. the cliff edge—and those seem to be the key areas of Indeed, the report warns of the challenges associated concern. Why has passporting caught the imagination with possible regulatory divergence between ourselves, of so many people? Because it perfectly exemplifies the US and the EU. The UK has played an integral our relationship with the EU. Passporting has become role in the design, implementation and management integral to the way in which banks operate. As Douglas of financial service regulations. Do the Government Flint, group chairman of HSBC, told the committee, intend that we continue to work with our European “Everyone is affected by passporting rights to a greater or partners on regulation setting? lesser degree”. We have heard today some of the more intricate It also cuts across the most significant debates we will matters that the Treasury will have to consider. However, have about Brexit—notably, our membership of the the point that I am trying to make is that, if we do not single market, which the Prime Minister has confirmed understand the basics of the overall industry, we will Britain will no longer be a member of, as well as not be properly prepared to discuss the parameters of equivalence and regulatory divergence. a debate on, for instance, as mentioned by a number of Despite all this, it appears that our knowledge of noble Lords today, our continued position as the the system in which we are operating is limited. Before European clearing centre, or—we have heard less of we can make a decision about where we want to go, we this, but it is important to London—as a hub for surely need to figure out what we have been doing and fintech development. Too often these basics are where we are. As the report states, overlooked. “It is striking that some firms do not themselves appear to be We must not confuse the mass of detail that we aware of their reliance on the current passporting arrangements”— have for understanding the industry as a whole. The the implication being that they do not have a full report left me with the impression that we do not have picture of the reciprocal impacts that passporting has the necessary understanding of the industry to enter on both the UK and EU financial markets. I for one these negotiations, that the industry does not have a believe this to be a startling realisation. There is a complete understanding of itself and that the Government responsibility on the Government and industry alike have yet to find the tools with which to fill these to rectify this deficit as quickly as possible. knowledge gaps. I hope the Minister’s response will put my concerns to rest. In a Written Answer to my noble friend Lady Hayter on 24 January, the Minister stated that: 4.10 pm “Government ministers have met with a full range of institutions from across our financial services sector”. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con): My Lords, the noble Baroness, It is encouraging that such conversations are taking Lady Falkner of Margravine, and her committee have place, but I wonder whether the noble Baroness could produced an excellent, clear report. I thank her, and go into more detail than she has provided on meetings others, for the warm welcome they have given me in that related specifically to passporting rights. Do the my challenging new role. I join others in thanking her Government share the view of the EU Select Committee and members of the committee—some of whom, along about the awareness of passporting access across the with others, have spoken with great clarity today—for industry? If so, I would be interested to hear how the their work. I especially thank the clerks, who have Government intend to resolve this problem. done a really good job at great speed. Given that the Prime Minister has made it clear It is obvious that financial services will be an important that she has no intention of Britain remaining a component of the EU exit discussions and it is helpful member of the single market, could the Minister outline to have a comprehensive document covering all the what implications the Government believe that will issues at this exact stage—as well as to have this debate have for our ability to maintain passporting rights, before we submit our government response to the and whether it will be a priority for the Treasury in the committee. This debate is especially useful to me, as negotiations? only last week I was given responsibility within the That brings me to the evidence base more generally. Treasury for EU exit on financial services. I can reassure I appreciate that not all communications, let alone the noble Lords that I have a long history of working detail of those communications, will or should be with, and operating in, the EU and I believe that we available for scrutiny. What I am asking for—and I can build a strong new partnership on financial and believe that I am justified in doing so—is evidence that economic matters. the Government are building the robust analysis and The links between the UK and our nearest neighbours filling the gaps which the report made clear are so in Europe are numerous and long-standing, as the apparent. Can the Minister say whether, further to the Prime Minister said when she highlighted financial request by the EU Financial Services Sub-Committee, services as a priority. Above all, it is in our interest for the Treasury is modelling the effect of different scenarios the EU to flourish and we will be aiming for the freest on the deal that will be struck between us and the EU? possible trade in financial services between the UK Related to that, will those models take into account and the 27 member states. the executive order signed by President Trump, which I am especially grateful to my noble friend Lord seeks to review the working of the Dodd-Frank Act? I Caithness, who gave us the benefit of his experience at know that the Government have been keen not to the Treasury and an insight into the global future. This 1923 Brexit: Financial Services [LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1924

[BARONESS NEVILLE-ROLFE] countries to provide services across the EU. We have underlined to me the importance of maintaining the heard calls from our stakeholders on this and studied UK’s pre-eminence in financial services. Having, like the industry analysis proposing these equivalence regimes him, operated for many years in the EU, working with as the basis for future market access. EU partners, I very much agree about the importance The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the of language. Notions such as seeking common ground depth of discussion on passporting rights. The simple are good concepts in negotiation. answer is that at nearly every meeting on financial The noble Earl asked about the risk of currency services interests there is a discussion of passporting devaluations. He will remember that Treasury Ministers rights—but, as with equivalence, different people are have to be very careful about what they say regarding talking about different things. We need some flexibility currency. However, since the financial crisis, the in our negotiations, but I reassure this House that in Government have strengthened the domestic financial our new strategic partnership we will seek the freest stability policy framework and, as the Governor of the possible trade in financial services between the UK Bank of England noted, the UK financial system has and the EU. In the Prime Minister’s words, it will be passed several tests over the past year. The Treasury, on the basis of a “bold and ambitious” free trade the Bank, the Prudential Regulation Authority and agreement. the Financial Conduct Authority will continue to monitor any risks closely. That is very important and reassuring. As the committee’s report noted and our debate today has illustrated, this is an exceptionally complex As a glass-half-full person, I was glad to hear the set of issues. For this reason, I am determined that noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, sound more consultation with our industries and stakeholders should optimistic than he did at the time the committee continue throughout the negotiating process, which produced its report. My noble friend Lord Eccles and will enable us to improve our evidence base and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, felt the same. The understand the impact of different scenarios. Those noble Lord, Lord Butler, is right about the interest themes from the report were picked up by the noble that the EU has in a sensible outcome. He may well Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. The noble Lord also asked know that four-fifths of EU 27 capital market business about Dodd-Frank. It is frankly early days on that. is conducted through the UK, and he is also right to Our simple aim is to secure the future of a sector say that we need to keep close to each other. responsible for 7% of GDP and over 1 million jobs. One key issue that the report discusses is that of access to EU markets. I listened with great interest to A second area of enormous significance to the the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, who said how important sector is to avoid a so-called “cliff edge”. As the report it was to remain a confident country in this time of highlights, this will be important to a large number of change. The Prime Minister helped us here with her industries across the entire EU. For financial services speech at Lancaster House, in which she made it clear firms, this is of particular importance because of the that we would not seek membership of the single deeply integrated market for financial services and market. Instead, we are seeking a new strategic partnership long-established regulatory coherence. To pick up on with the EU that complements the needs of our industries, the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, including the needs of financial services companies we want to give businesses enough time to plan and and their customers. prepare for the new arrangements that will be in place. That means that we are working closely with firms We want the change from where we are now as EU to understand what issues Brexit raises for them and members to our new relationship with the rest of the what a good outcome might look like. Our work so far EU to be as smooth and orderly as possible. It is in shows that the answer to that question varies enormously recognition of this that the Prime Minister has made it according to whom you ask. Many firms, for example, clear since the committee reported that a phased process acrossbanking,assetmanagement,insuranceandpayment of implementation will be sought. services, which currently trade across borders, benefit I understand the noble Baroness’s point about the from passporting rights, but that is less true of firms need for an early agreement on phasing to help allay that provide retail financial services chiefly within the the concerns of the financial services industries. We UK, such as domestic insurance firms and high street also believe that such a phased process of implementation retail banks. can be in the mutual interest of the UK and the EU. We are working to understand the needs of the Inevitably,the details of the timing of the implementation wide spectrum of financial services interests in the period will have to be discussed through the process of UK. That includes, for example, the car companies, negotiation with our EU partners. which provide lease financing for most new cars bought A third priority that many noble Lords touched on, in Britain today. It means understanding the interests including the noble Lord, Lord Desai, and the noble of the wider financial and related professional Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and which I think is extremely ecosystem—a word that others have used—including important, is access to talent. The noble Earl, Lord accountants and lawyers, as well as thinking about the Kinnoull, warned that capital follows talent. I certainly interests of consumers of financial services, including remember that from my time in business. For some, it the less well-off or those who might be misled. I liked is the overriding issue. Fintech firms, for example, tell the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, us they rely on drawing from an international talent about car insurance for travellers in Europe. pool. Europe leads on fintech, much of it here in As the report rightly notes, various elements of EU London, and we are committed to staying at the financialserviceslegislationcontainequivalenceprovisions, cutting edge of financial innovation. Let me highlight some of which can offer a basis for firms from third the statistic from the report that is so telling on talent: 1925 Brexit: Financial Services [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Brexit: Financial Services 1926 of the 1 million or so people who work directly in our Trade deals involving non-tariff barriers, which have financial services, 60,000 are EU nationals and 100,000 been mentioned, such as regulation, are also important are non-EU nationals. To respond to the noble Earl, and can be part of discussions on any new trade deal. we recognise that the ability to attract and look after As the noble Lord, Lord Desai, said, we have highly qualified staff and transfer them easily between played a major part in the architecture of the international the UK and the EU is a key issue, including for financial system. We agree that we need to ensure that insurance. the UK, with its expertise, experience and eye for In future we must ensure that we can control the detail, continues to have influence over international number of people coming to the UK from the EU. We standards with a voice on things such as the Basel are considering the options for our future immigration Committee, the Financial Stability Board and other system very carefully. As part of that it is important international fora such as the International Organization that we understand the impacts of different options of Securities Commissions and the International on different sectors of the economy and on the labour Association of Insurance Supervisors.These international market. Companies are not only discussing with us bodies could not be more important. how we keep attracting new talent; they want to know A priority of the Government is to consult external what it means for the international staff they already expertise extensively at this time and I am grateful for have and value. It is a priority for the UK to be able to the vast amount of input that we have already had at guarantee the rights of EU citizens already living in every level in the Treasury and in DExEU. We are not Britain, and the rights of British nationals living in talking just to those businesses with whole new Brexit other member states, as soon as possible. That must be strategy departments and consultants. We are also agreed on a reciprocal basis and we stand ready to sign talking to those with none and to start-ups, supply up to this and to do so soon if it can be agreed with chains and other stakeholders. We are also engaging our EU partners. outside London, where, as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, I turn now to the international dimension. My said, we have large numbers of financial services jobs. noble friend Lord Caithness asked about the Prime There are, for example, around 140,000 people in this Minister’s meeting with President Trump in the United sector in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales—think States. The trip in January was very positive. I felt very of Standard Life or Virgin Money in Edinburgh, proud of the Prime Minister. Obviously I cannot Legal & General in Cardiff, and Citi in Belfast. Indeed, comment on the private detail of the conversation but next week I will visit Wales in my new role and hope to the Prime Minister set out that there is a shared meet some financial services stakeholders. commitment to economic co-operation and trade between We will keep up this process of listening to expert the United States and the UK. The UK has always views from a range of standpoints as the negotiations been a leading voice for free trade in the EU and kick off and progress. I hope not to be criticised by globally. That will continue. I always say that trade is this House for lack of vigour. I know that many noble in our DNA. Lords have expertise in these areas. I therefore take The Government agree with the committee’sassessment this opportunity to invite them to contact me if they of the UK as a global financial services hub and the have advice to proffer. depth of capital market activity it fosters—to the I have focused my remarks largely today on two benefit of Europe as a whole, its pensioners, its businesses things: the needs of our varied financial services sector and its public sector bodies and their customers. The as we leave the EU, and how we are researching, UK and the EU have a mutual interest in ensuring understanding and analysing those needs. While some that specialist activities, such as clearing do not end up are more optimistic than others, there is a wide measure in New York. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, talked of agreement today that we need to secure the freest about possible job implications. I will say two things. possible market access, the smoothest possible transition, First, I saw Mr Xavier Rolet today. He is one of the and the ability to recruit and retain the best and the first experienced leaders in this industry that I have brightest. This matters to those people whose jobs had the pleasure to consult. He gave me a copy of the depend on this industry—more than 1 million people EY report. in this country. It matters to the wider UK economy. Financial services contribute around £66 billion a year Secondly, as the committee’s report identifies, many in tax and represent a growing percentage of our firms in the UK, in the rest of Europe and internationally exports. It matters to our partners across Europe—and, benefit from London’s multicurrency clearing structure. of course, we are a gateway to the world of international The Chancellor himself has pointed out that any finance. changes to the structure could force up the cost of clearing, with a substantial cost to the European economy It has been a pleasure to debate this perceptive and and to firms in the 27 member states—and cost is an timely report. I again express my appreciation to the important motivator. We will look at the committee’s noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, and the recommendations on clearing very carefully in responding team that she chaired so expertly, for their conclusions. to the report. 4.28 pm My noble friend Lord Caithness asked about financial services regulatory co-operation in future trade deals, Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, this which was a very good question. The Prime Minister has been an extremely fruitful debate and I am particularly has said that the UK will be free to strike trade deals grateful to the Minister for giving us, in the absence of around the world after exit because of the approach a formal government response, a clear line of vision that we have taken. That includes financial services. about how she is proceeding with her role. I particularly 1927 Brexit: Financial Services [LORDS] Brexit: Financial Services 1928

[BARONESS FALKNER OF MARGRAVINE] in the early 18th century when he was in London— want to thank those noble Lords who spoke in this enriching himself on the back of the City of London. debate today who were not members of the committee— He exhorted the French to move in the same direction. the noble Earls, Lord Caithness and Lord Kinnoull, “Nobody understands commerce like the English,” he the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, and the noble Lord, said. As I reminded the House today,President Hollande Lord Dykes. We have benefited greatly in this House is, somewhat belatedly, trying to take France in that from hearing from them as well. direction. The tone of the debate touched on optimism and In conclusion, it is people who are at the heart of pessimism. As all Select Committees should do—and this. It is not fashionable to defend bankers, nor to say I believe do—we followed the evidence. When our that the financial services sector does a very good job interlocutors were extremely concerned about their in liquidity and capital markets. Our committee saw future businesses, workforces and livelihoods, we reflected how important it was that the livelihoods of people in that in the debate. Frankly, we did not encounter too this country and in the European Union should continue many voices cheering the impact of Brexit on financial to benefit from that most essential commodity— services from the rooftops. capitalism. Where I entirely agree with the optimists is about Motion agreed. the durability of the City of London to innovate, reinvent itself anew and adapt. Voltaire picked this up House adjourned at 4.31 pm. GC 433 Arrangement of Business[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 434

Grand Committee legacy of which, tragically, remains to this day. But we cannot pretend he did not exist, or that his actions Thursday 9 February 2017 were not ultimately backed by British arms and sanctioned by British law. He is part of history; he cannot be wished away any more than any other cruel period in Arrangement of Business our history can be wished away. He is of course not Announcement alone. At the public entrance to this building stands a statue of Oliver Cromwell, whose violent suppression 1 pm of the English Levellers, the royalists and the Catholic The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Irish is well documented. London and other cities are Pitkeathley) (Lab): My Lords, I should remind your littered with statues to slave owners. They stand alongside Lordships that if there is a Division in the Chamber buildings constructed with the riches accumulated through the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. the slave trade and close to monuments to assorted imperialists and racial supremacists of the 19th and 20th centuries. The truth is that our history is so Historical Statues and Memorials closely entwined in these things that to pretend we can Question disentangle it by removing a statue or two is to delude ourselves. 1 pm We should not try to deny our history in that way Asked by Lord Oates but we seem determined to deny it in another. Ten years ago, a national service of remembrance was held To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they in Westminster Abbey to commemorate the bicentenary will publish guidance to encourage the protection of the Act that abolished the transatlantic slave trade. of existing historical statues and memorials and The service culminated in the Queen laying flowers, promote the establishment of new memorials that first to honour all who worked for the abolition of the reflect the broader history of the United Kingdom. slave trade and afterwards to honour those who were enslaved. The flowers to honour the abolitionists were Lord Oates (LD): My Lords, I am grateful for the laid at the statue of William Wilberforce that stands in opportunity to open this debate. In doing so, I declare Westminster Abbey,but there was no statue or monument a non-pecuniary interest as a patron of the charity to honour the millions of enslaved Africans—to bear Memorial 2007. I thank in advance all noble Lords for witness to the vast numbers who died in appalling taking part in this debate. conditions in the camps on the African coast, on the The history of our country is passed down to us slave ships crossing the Atlantic or at the hands of through many different channels—in the content of brutal overseers in the plantations. There was no statue the history books in our libraries, in the syllabuses to the millions more who survived the horror of the taught to students in our schools and universities, in slave ships to suffer the unspeakable physical and the events we choose to commemorate and in the psychological violence of slavery, and no statue to the events we choose to forget. Its physical embodiment is courage and fortitude of those who survived and found in the statues and monuments that stand in resisted. Instead, the Queen had to step outside the every city, town and village across the country. In abbey and place her flowers on a paving stone in the many cases the judgment that history makes on the forecourt, which is inscribed with generic words in people commemorated by these statues and monuments tribute to the innocent. I was struck by this at the time: is less favourable than the view that their contemporaries why was it that 200 years since abolition, there was no took or that they themselves sought to propagate. national memorial in our capital city to honour the In other countries, as history has turned, there has millions of African people enslaved or murdered in been wholesale destruction of monuments that no the transatlantic slave trade? Whywas there no monument longer found favour. It was true in France after the to remind us that the capacity for unspeakable brutality revolution, in Germany after the Second World War towards innocent people is not reserved to one nationality, and in many parts of Europe after the collapse of or to one time in history? It is in all of us and it must Soviet communism. Lacking a violent domestic upheaval be guarded against by all of us at all times.History teaches in our own recent history, there has been no great us that lesson, but we have to be willing to learn. disruption of our monuments. Inevitably, therefore, a When I was appointed to this House, I tried to find fair number of history’s villains, rendered in stone or out why this part of our history seemed to have been bronze, are scattered across our towns and cities. There passed by, and in doing so I came across two formidable are those who argue that the most egregious of these women who are here today. They are trustees of a villains should be removed. When I first tabled this charity called Memorial 2007, which was established Question, a debate was raging over whether the statue to bring into being a monument to honour the countless of Rhodes at Oriel College, Oxford, should be removed. millions of enslaved African people and their descendants, The controversy that followed exemplified the emotional to give voice to their history and to gain recognition significance afforded to these physical manifestations that it is also all of our history. Through their fortitude of our history. and determination and against many obstacles, they I am no fan of Cecil John Rhodes; I have spent secured a site for a memorial garden and sculpture in enough time in southern Africa and read enough of its Hyde Park. They held a design competition, commissioned history to be in no doubt about the greed-fuelled a sculptor and—just recently—gained planning consent violence he unleashed on that part of Africa, the for the project from Westminster City Council. They GC 435 Historical Statues and Memorials[LORDS] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 436

[LORD OATES] A discussion about memorials versus museums echoes are now raising funds to make the enslaved Africans the discussions, particularly after World War I, when memorial a reality. The project got its inspiration from local people thought about whether they wanted a war a pupil of one of the trustees. On a visit to the Tower memorial carved in stone in their area or whether an of London, the pupil asked, “Where is our history, amenity of some kind was more appropriate. Different Miss?”. Nowhere is that absence truer than in the communities took different decisions. We all know of history of the transatlantic slave trade, for while there war memorial hospitals, playing fields, village halls and are statues and monuments to slave owners and white so on. abolitionists alike, there is no representation of the I come originally from Leicester, where we have not history of the enslaved African people. There is no only a fine memorial arch, designed by Edwin Lutyens, representation that testifies to the determined advocacy but also the University of Leicester, which was founded of black abolitionists, such as Olaudah Equiano. In all as a college in 1921, specifically as a war memorial. It the self-congratulation over abolition, we lost sight of proudly proclaims in its motto, “Ut vitam habeant”—so the real story: the central part our country played in that they may have life. Its website describes the university 300 years of the brutal enslavement of millions of our as, fellow human beings. In losing sight of that story, we “a living memorial for those who lost their lives in [the] First failed to learn the lessons that history has to teach us. World War”. The Question we are debating today is a wide one The War Memorials Trust supports war memorials and I recognise that noble Lords will want to raise a that are in need of restoration, both of the stone kind range of issues relating to this subject, but I hope the and of an amenity kind—although not the University Minister will be able to address some specific issues of Leicester, simply because it is outside our scope. We regarding the enslaved Africans memorial in her response are assisted in this now by the Government’s First to this debate. First, I hope she will be able to put on World War Memorials Programme, which we run for record her and the Government’s support for this them with Historic England and the equivalent bodies long-overdue monument. Secondly, I would be grateful in other parts of the UK. If any noble Lords or others if she could indicate whether the Government are know of a war memorial of either kind that seems in willing to provide the sort of technical assistance to need of a bit of TLC, please let us know and we will Memorial 2007 that was afforded to recent projects, do what we can to help, with both advice and, sometimes, such as the Ghandi statue. Thirdly, the Minister may grants. be aware that following the difficulties with the Diana Unfortunately the memorial suggested by the noble memorial, the Royal Parks now require a maintenance Lord, Lord Oates, would not qualify, both because it endowment over an extended period. In the case of is a new memorial—we are specifically about the the proposed enslaved Africans memorial, this amounts conservation of existing memorials—and because I do to nearly £1 million. I would be grateful if the Minister not think it could exactly count as a war memorial could look at this and consider whether the Government under the definition used for legal purposes. Nevertheless, might be able to review this requirement, or take on I wish his project well. It deserves the support of all in this part of the cost. Finally, I hope the Minister can this House. give guidance to public authorities and grant-giving bodies that they should consider the diverse historical 1.13 pm experiences of our country in their decisions. Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab): My Lords, I do not believe that we should attempt to deny our I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oates, for organising history by tearing down existing statues and monuments, this important debate. Memorialisation is possibly the but we should bear true witness to that history by most eternal form of art. Whether it is of events or ensuring that the monuments of our capital city and ways of life, it has for millennia been used to capture our country begin to reflect a rather wider and more the essence of who we are. In part, it is historical record, inclusive history. In 1682, as the historian Madge but it is also the presentation of history—the source of Dresser notes, William Goodwyn proposed a public our common understanding of where we come from. statue in London which would have prominently This understanding underpins the foundation of our acknowledged the injustice suffered by enslaved Africans society and, as such, has a dynamic and forward-looking under British rule. Some 335 years later, that call has impact. This is especially important in a country such not been answered. It is now time—well past time—to as the United Kingdom, which through its connections put that right. to far-flung places has a particularly complex history that combines a wide variety of actors, communities 1.09 pm and cultures, not all of which are acknowledged. Like the noble Lord, Lord Oates, I should like to set Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con): My Lords, my out the importance of memorialisation in the context involvement with memorials is as a trustee of the War of the enslaved Africans memorial, which I wholeheartedly Memorials Trust. First, I want to wish a fair wind to support. A few years ago, I was born in Jamaica; the proposals that the noble Lord, Lord Oates, and his or—and not to age myself—the British colony of colleagues are working on. I hope they are successful. Jamaica, as it was known then. When one thinks There are a number of museums about the slave about Jamaica, one thinks of its vibrancy, spirit and trade, particularly in various port cities in our country, honour, and the strength of the people. All that is true, which tell people about the appalling effects of the but what is also true is not often recognised in this trade in considerable detail. They are in their way country, which is that Jamaica is a country born out of memorials to what took place and to those who suffered. suffering. In 1655, when British forces captured Jamaica GC 437 Historical Statues and Memorials[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 438 from the Spanish, the population of the island was paying off a relative and the wish to impress someone. just 2,500. Between 1670 and 1680 the slave population We should be encouraging people who are not in that never exceeded 10,000, but the British could see the position, and in doing so we would be doing ourselves potential of sugar cane to generate enormous wealth a service. for the Government. However, labour was needed. By The noble Lord, Lord Cope,mentioned war memorials. 1800, only 120 years later, more than 300,000 Africans They are probably an incredibly good example of where had been enslaved and forced to work on the Jamaican we should be going because they represent groups. plantations. Thousands of British families grew rich Individuals may be recorded on them, but they represent on their backs and hundreds of great homes were built groups. If we concentrate on groups and stop trying to using the wealth generated by slavery. Ports and cities reflect the “great men” school of history, we can do no were developed on the spoils of the slave trade. The better than look to our war memorials. Then we will work of the enslaved generated the prosperity that be approaching this in the right way. If the Industrial made the Industrial Revolution possible. We are also Revolution changes a place, it changes the way a enjoying the benefits because modern Britain is built group and a society are structured. If we say that the on the legacy of the slave trade. slave trade affected groups, memorials to them should The scale of the wealth created for Britain by the show how that group was affected. transatlantic slave trade is matched and exceeded only Such statues are slightly more difficult to put up by the suffering it inflicted, yet while we rightly celebrate than those of one person standing on a horse and its abolition and those who campaigned for it, we do looking heroically down a shopping precinct, but we not recognise or honour the people who were ripped have to start thinking about this. We should really from their homes and enslaved. This is hugely important start thinking about it when we start building. That is to our country. We may think of slavery as part of the easy time to do it, when there is money around. I history, but the attitude that it embedded in the mindset hope the Minister will be able to indicate that anybody of all people continues to follow us to this day, and its building a new project might be encouraged to think legacy is felt in the systematic racial discrimination about what they would like to record. that continues to feature in our society. Yes, we have made great progress, but until we face up to our past and discuss it openly and without blame, we will 1.20 pm struggle to heal fully. Viscount Falkland (CB): My Lords, I have been Memorialisation is particularly important for the looking at statues in various countries and cities for descendants of the enslaved. Marcus Garvey once many years. I apologise for using a French word, but I said— am what is known in France as a flâneur; in other words, I wander around with no particular aim looking Baroness Seccombe (Con): I must remind the noble at things, and statues are among my favourites. The Baroness that this is a timed debate and the allocated theme of my speech in the brief time I have at my time for speeches is three minutes. disposal will not exactly follow that of the noble Lord, Lord Oates, but I thank him for the opportunity to Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: I shall just finish. talk about statues. I will talk uniquely, because of the I recommend the proposed enslaved Africans memorial time, about London and the House of Lords. in Hyde Park because it would become a vital part of As a flâneur, one realises that those who commission this country’s self-perception and history. It would statues and monuments and those who create them honour those who have been missing from our history put great thought into them. Generally, they have to for too long and help us to recognise the complexities be attractive; they have to be historically relevant, on which our society has been built. We would also which they are normally are—they are mostly historical return roots to a group of people who have not known in London. I doubt whether any of your Lordships their history. In doing this, together we will create a would be able to guess how many people in one society that is more cohesive and just in the future. normal day stop and look at a statue at all. Statues are quite inappropriate now to the way in which people 1.18 pm conduct themselves in streets and public places. Most young people are now connected with some electronic Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, I congratulate my device. They pass by; traffic moves very quickly—it noble friend Lord Oates on bringing this matter to the was not intended when a lot of statues went up. attention of noble Lords. Creating new memorials to reflect our broader history would be a very good However, there are some marvellous statues. Before thing. As I walked through London on my way here I move on to the House of Lords, I urge everybody to today, I looked at the various memorials because I become a flâneur for a moment and cross the road to knew that I would be speaking in this debate. I saw a look at the statue of Churchill. It is a remarkable and great many men who had had fairly undistinguished exceptional statue, because not only does it remind us military careers gazing heroically down roads, either of that great man but it has energy and it is about art on horseback or on foot, and they seemed to reflect as well as anything else. when the buildings behind them were put up. That As you come into the House of Lords, you will pass tells us quite a lot about the people who built them but the statue by Marochetti—it is a bravura statue—of only a little about the people represented. I would Richard the Lionheart. Why it should be Richard the hope that our new memorials will reflect people who Lionheart I do not know. I think Marochetti rather do not have the money to support the building of preferred the Black Prince, but that never happened— memorials rather than more statues that are about although I think a model was made of the Black GC 439 Historical Statues and Memorials[LORDS] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 440

[VISCOUNT FALKLAND] and important political leaders, somebody who produced Prince and I think the Queen has one of the several work of real consequence that has changed the nature copies that remain. As you come into the House of of Parliament, and rightly so? Lords, you will see numerous statues—just under 300. The feminist campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez has Some of them are outside; some of them are inside. launched a drive to see justice done in Parliament Most demand attention and indeed they get it. You Square and justice for Millicent Fawcett. I proudly might say that in the House of Lords the statues that join my cause to hers. On Millicent Fawcett’s statue, let we have are working statues, because every day we it say, “This is Dame Millicent Fawcett, champion of have people going down the route allotted to them, so the weak, defender of children, tribune of the great the statues are examined on a day-to-day basis, quite women’s campaign”. unlike anything outside. I think I have probably reached the end of my three 1.26 pm minutes and that is really all I have to say. I hope the noble Lord will again put down this subject for debate Lord Bilimoria (CB): My Lords, I am proud to be when we might have a little more time for it, allowing vice-patron of the Memorial Gates on Constitution for something relatively flippant compared with the Hill, an initiative spearheaded by my noble friend Lady noble Lord’s speech and we can all indulge ourselves Flather, who pioneered and persisted in raising the on our particular line. It has been refreshing to have funds, helped by others, to make this memorial possible. an opportunity to speak on the subject. It was inaugurated by Her Majesty the Queen in 2002. Every March, we have a commemoration ceremony 1.24 pm on Commonwealth Day. I chaired that ceremony for six years and continue to be a member of the Memorial Lord Finkelstein (Con): I thank the noble Lord, Gates Council. To quote Her Majesty the Queen’s Lord Oates, for holding this debate and for his eloquent Commonwealth message to the 53 member states: and persuasive speech, backed equally eloquently and persuasively by the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence. It “We are guardians of a precious flame, and it is our duty not only to keep it burning brightly but to keep it replenished for the was a compelling case that he made. decades ahead”. I start with a quiz question: what do General Smuts, The Memorial Gates have flames burning above them. Winston Churchill, Viscount Palmerston, David Lloyd On one of the pillars of the gates is a quote from the George, Nelson Mandela, George Canning, Abraham poet Ben Okri: Lincoln and Mahatma Gandhi have in common? There “Our future is greater than our past”. are two possible answers, neither of which will win you the points. The first is that they are all commemorated Inscribed on the roof of the pavilion next to the by statues in Parliament Square. The second is that Memorial Gates are the names of the VC and GC they are all men. Every statue in Parliament Square is recipients from the countries that are represented there. of a man. The fact that this point is very simple and Five million people from what was then India, south very obvious does not rob it of significance. In my Asia, Africa and the Caribbean served in the First and view, it is simply wrong. I would go so far as to say that Second World Wars. We would not have our freedom it is a national embarrassment. today without their service and sacrifice. On that roof are the names of three recipients of the Victoria Cross I want to make a simple proposal. I am proud that from my father’s battalion, the 2nd 5th Gorkha Rifles we should commemorate outside our Parliament the Frontier Force. My father became commander-in-chief end of apartheid, the fight for Indian independence of the Central Indian Army. He was president of the and victory in the American civil war. We should pay Gorkha Brigade and he led his battalion, the 2nd 5th tribute to the great struggles for freedom and it is an Gorkhas, in the liberation of Bangladesh in 1971. I appropriate place to do so. But let us also pay tribute was proud to have been brought up with two of those in an appropriate place to our own great struggles for Victoria Cross winners, Gaje Ghale and Agansing Rai. democracy. Of these, surely one of the greatest is the Thethird,NetrabahadurThapa,wasawardedposthumously. struggle to win votes for women. Let us have a statue in Parliament Square for Dame Millicent Garrett Fawcett. Memorials are there to inspire the future and our Let us have a statue for the woman who led the youth. It gives me such pleasure to see schoolchildren peaceful democratic campaign for change; the woman attend our ceremony every year.What are the Government whose leadership of the National Union of Women’s doing to encourage, promote and support education Suffrage Societies changed minds and won votes—its programmes in schools on all our memorials. I thank work was the heart of the movement, with 25 times the the noble Lord, Lord Oates, for initiating the debate membership that Mrs Pankhurst boasted. Let us have and I wish him well in the creation of the monument a statue for the woman who was there from the first to enslaved African people. There is a Sikh memorial petition to the final victory for the cause; who took up at the National Memorial Arboretum, as there is a campaigns to curb child abuse by raising the age of Gurkha one. But although there is a Gurkha memorial consent; who fought to criminalise incest, combat in London, there is no Sikh memorial in London. cruelty to children within the family, end the practice Does the Minister believe we should have a Sikh of excluding women from courtrooms when sexual memorial here? offences were under consideration and to stamp out Before I conclude, one of my proudest achievements the “white slave trade”. How can this country have no as a Member of your Lordships’ House for the past proper monument to celebrate the life of one of its 10 years was being a member of the Joint Committee greatest pioneers and leaders? How can it be that so of both Houses that put up the statue of Mahatma many people are unaware of one of our most successful Gandhi in Parliament Square. It is only the 11th statue. GC 441 Historical Statues and Memorials[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 442

I never cease to find people in front of it when I walk to the memorials on Whitehall and through to Trafalgar through or drive around Parliament Square, because Square, I can pay my respects to men who built up this Mahatma Gandhi’s message is for the world. Once country. However, I have noticed what I feel is a again, what are we doing to promote the message of glaring omission. Empire builders—men such as Churchill Mahatma Gandhi and the individuals there to educate, and Montgomery—are well represented, but there is because memorials are there to commemorate, to very little recognition of those who fought for the UK remember and to inspire? I conclude by reading those from certain parts of the empire. I wish specifically to famous words on the Kohima war memorial: talk about the Sikh community, to which I am privileged “When you go home tell them of us and say for your tomorrow to belong. we gave our today”. After the defeat of the Sikh Empire in 1849, Sikhs were recruited en masse into the British Army and formed 1.30 pm its elite fighting forces, becoming heavily represented The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I add my in the officer class. One early incidence of their extreme thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, for this debate, valour came when 21 Sikhs of the 36th Sikhs fought and in particular for the work he is doing on the 10,000 Afghans at a border post for several hours, memorial to those who have been enslaved. We look fighting till the last man and allowing other troops to forward to hearing more about it as it develops. I am regroup and retake the fortress. All troops received the pleased that he has focused our minds not just on equivalent of the Victoria Cross in India—the Indian existing memorials, but on what we ought to be doing Order of Merit—and established the reputation of as we look to the future, especially for the urgent need Sikhs as a fearless martial race. This House and other to celebrate the wide diversity of people and events places rose to pay homage to the fallen—as rare an that have contributed to our national life, many of occurrence then as it is now. which are underrepresented in our public spaces. The bravery and sacrifice of Sikh communities As levels of social capital and civic engagement continued through the world wars, when they had continue to decline across communities in western voluntary conscription rates higher than any other Europe, there is an urgent need to think about how we community across the empire. In World War I, Sikhs can retell, reboot and celebrate our common stories constituted some 20% of the Indian army, despite and our public spaces through memorialising and being just 1% of the Indian population at the time. celebrating people and events. For example, St Albans, Some 83,000 of these men became casualties during where I live, is where the first meeting of the bishops the fighting in France and north Africa, with a further and barons took place in 1213, which was to lead two 109,000 being seriously wounded. Earl Mountbatten years later to the sealing of Magna Carta. Yet this of Burma, who commanded Sikh regiments, said, “In seminal event is not celebrated in any public space in a fight, a Sikh will go on to his last breath, and die the city. I have been encouraging people to think about laughing at the thought of Paradise, with the battle-cry how we might do that. I hope we may be able to. This of ‘Khalsa ji ki jai’ as he falls”. is a great lost opportunity to educate and talk about The first Viscount Slim, commander of the 14th army, the roots of our human rights, which started in very also expressed reverence for the Sikhs he commanded, early stages there. saying, “It is no exaggeration to record that the armies A second example in the city is Samuel Ryder, the which possess the valiant Sikhs cannot face defeat mayor of St Albans, businessman and lifelong Methodist in war”. who set up the Ryder Cup, which was invented in At the extremely bloody Battle of Neuve Chapelle nearby Hertfordshire. In 2011 our local district council some Sikh regiments lost 75% of their men during a agreed planning permission for a statue to commemorate single engagement, which was important in testing him, but five years on, as is so often with these German defences and formulating a new tactical plan projects, funding is difficult to secure. Our experience for trench warfare. is that a lot of these projects take a long time to get going. You have to build groups of people to get Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I fear the noble support, planning and so on. While I commend the Lord has exceeded his allocated time, so I ask him to existing memorials grant scheme, would the Minister conclude. encourage Her Majesty’s Government not only to Lord Suri: I shall say just one thing more. We must extend it beyond 31 March 2020, when I think it will move on with the knowledge that the greatness of this come to an end, but see whether we can extend its country was achieved by a wide array of communities remit to help local community groups as we think and resolve to create a proper memorial here in London, about how we develop this area further? the former imperial capital. They deserve nothing less. 1.32 pm It is a great shame that significant memorials exist in India and France but not here. As the noble Lord, Lord Suri (Con): My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak Lord Bilimoria, said, if the Minister is committed to in this debate, which is extremely important, especially the establishment of new memorials that reflect the given the large number of upcoming services that will broader history of the UK, this is the right place commemorate and respect those who laid down their to start. lives for our freedoms in the two world wars. When I walk around the ancient area of London, 1.36 pm where we are fortunate to work, both inside and Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB): I, too, thank the outside the Palace, I have numerous memorials and noble Lord, Lord Oates, for initiating this debate. As statues to pay my respects to. From the square outside always when I do not know a noble Lord, I went to GC 443 Historical Statues and Memorials[LORDS] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 444

[BARONESS LANE-FOX OF SOHO] that had left Elmina Castle in Ghana. Records end, Wikipedia to see what I could find out—the collective but soon they will have a place to go once this memorial wisdom of the internet always impresses me. The is built. noble Lord is the fifth most influential Liberal Democrat, I pay tribute to the role of the BBC and its recent he may be interested to hear. I also learned about the history project and accompanying series “Black and people he went to university with. The depth of British”, written and presented by historian David information never ceases to amaze me on that website. Olusoga and with an imaginative original score by the Noble Lords may not realise that Wikipedia, the internet’s young up-and-coming black British composer Segun main historical resource, is 90% created and curated Akinola. The history of black people goes back to by men. I am going to build on what the noble Lord, Roman times, with black soldiers guarding Hadrian’s Lord Finkelstein, said, because we do not do much Wall in the third century, and the project placed plaques better IRL, as my godchildren would say—in real life. in various locations recognising the black British people My friend, the campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez, who had lived there. already mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, Historic England maintains the National Heritage did an incredible audit of the statues of this country List for England, the apparently only official and and created a database. Of 925 statues, 71 were of up-to-date database of all nationally protected historic women, 29 of which were of Queen Victoria. There buildings and sites in England. Could the Minister, were 498 statues of non-royal historical men and only taking on a theme from this debate, outline whether an 25 of non-royal historical women. There were 43 statues assessment has been made of this list to ensure that of men called John. How do you become a statue if any other gaps, such as the enslaved Africans memorial, you are a woman? It helps if you are naked and it have been identified? Do we, and should we, have a helps if you are an allegorical figure, although the proper memorial to the “Windrush”, which arrived in allegorical figure of History was ripped down because Tilbury 70 years ago next year? Whatever happened to somebody decided that she should be a bluestocking, Danny Boyle’s replica that was used in the 2012 Olympic heaven forbid, and it was decided that that was not a opening ceremony, to great effect? good idea. Half of all female statues are allegorical We need to think about what new memorials we figures, such as Justice, nine represent Art, while there need but also which need taking down or delisting. are 45 male allegorical figures. Perhaps we need some temporary memorials on This, to my mind, is unacceptable. You cannot be appropriate anniversaries, the equivalent for memorials what you cannot see. Quite apart from not reflecting of the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square—perhaps a our broad and wonderful complex cultural history, plinth here in Parliament or Parliament Square. it is depressing to think that young women walking Some of the most important memorials in the UK around our country cannot see the pinnacles of are war memorials, both local and national. The achievement that have been reached by people from all Commonwealth War Memorial Gates at Hyde Park walks of society and all parts of life. Men dominate all Corner are majestic, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, the statues of scientists, businessmen and politicians. outlined, but the contribution of the Commonwealth Why not start with my own heroine, Ada Lovelace, the and today’s black and minority ethnic soldiers is in my computer engineer? I support the noble Lord, Lord view not prominent enough at the annual Cenotaph Finkelstein, 100%, but I would go further. I urge noble service, when the nation comes together publicly. I Lords to sign Caroline’s petition to put Millicent hope the Minister will consider that point and look at Fawcett in Parliament Square but I also urge the Minister reviewing that as well. to consider a profound redressing of the gender imbalance at a time when it feels so crucial that we give more 1.42 pm examples of different ways of being to young women Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, this all over the country. has been a very good debate. I cannot reflect all the views in the very limited time I have, so I will leave it to 1.39 pm the Minister to sum them up. Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, remembering There are three points that I should like to make. is an important but undervalued part of life.As technology First, what we are talking about is very often the old causes us to live in moments of distraction and being adage that history is written by the winners and that elsewhere, memorials help us to value the past and be therefore somehow the memorialisation of that history in the present, and to reflect. They are statements of is also what we are arguing against. Secondly, it is clear who we are, what and who has shaped us and what we from those who have argued already today that there value. are gaps—the suffragettes and suffragists, for example; I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, for slaves, as pointed out by the noble Lord who introduced bringing to my attention the memorial for enslaved the debate; and women more generally. Maybe your Africans that thankfully now has planning permission Lordships’ House should take on the responsibility of from Westminster City Council. It is so long overdue carrying out a regular and critical review of those gaps in London, as that grotesque trade is part of the and making recommendations that might be taken up history of this city. The British Museum and the by everyone, including the Government, and how we National Gallery, which attract so many visitors, were might do that. That is possibly a thought for the usual begun with collections from families who had profited channels to take forward. from plantations worked on by African slaves. For I support the noble Lord who moved the Motion in many that I have met, their family history—their own getting answers to the questions that he asked, with “Who Do You Think You Are?”—ends with a ship particular reference to the question of what the Royal GC 445 Historical Statues and Memorials[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 446

Parks might do about the request for £1 million to great deal of controversy. Historic England’s next ensure that a memorial, once built, is maintained. exhibition, “Immortalised”, in 2018, will be on the subject Under the new structure the Government will have a of who is remembered in monuments and why. It is a lesser role in this, and I would be interested to know topic attracting more and more attention generally. what the Minister thinks about what will happen to The listing system ensures that proper care and that request because it is genuine. protection are afforded to buildings and structures, Thirdly,the HLF is probably the agency that has most including statues and memorials, of special architectural responsibility in this area. It would be interesting to or historic interest. Policy on the listing of buildings is know what proportion of the grants it currently gives currently being revised and will shortly be published goes to memorials. I am also personally interested in as the updated Principles of Selection for Listing Buildings. our taking up some of the ideas that the noble Baroness, It will be complemented by Historic England’s range Lady Lane-Fox, mentioned, about how intangible of listing selection guides. These set out its approach memorials might be supported. That might be a way to the identification of buildings for consideration for of getting out of always focusing on statues, because listing and include its Commemorative Structures Listing they are not always the right way forward. Selection Guide. I understand from my quick research that the HLF Historic England’s first exhibition at Somerset House has already funded the Gomersal Colliery Memorial in 2016, “Out There”, was on the topic of post-war Project in Yorkshire, which centres on miners’sculptures, public art and was very well received, coming just days complemented by personalised paving slabs and after the unprecedented grade 2 and grade 2* listing of opportunities for former miners to get together to 41 post-war public sculptures. Several of these pieces recall memories, but I do not think—although I would are by well-known sculptors and include: Henry Moore’s have thought there was a case for it—it supports the “Knife Edge Two Piece”near the Houses of Parliament, memorial, run by Carousel, to the history of the Barbara Hepworth’s “Winged Figure” on John Lewis Paralympic Games, which would be another way of in Oxford Street, and Elisabeth Frink’s “Horse and trying to pick up an issue that has not been given Rider” in Piccadilly. sufficient regard. Also, the Tolson Memorial Garden in Huddersfield celebrates the work of service men Historic England built on this by the publication of and women who have lost their lives since the end of new guidance on the care of public art. In considering World War II. It is part of a museum but, again, it is whether to grant listed building consent or planning intangible work. Then there is the work of the Woodland permission for development which affects a listed statue Trust, which is thinking imaginatively about ways to or memorial, local planning authorities are required memorialise using the natural environment. That is to have special regard to the desirability of preserving something that might slip between the various agencies. the structure or its setting or any features of special Perhaps the Minister might respond on that. architectural or historic interest that it possesses. In addition to receiving statutory protection through At the end of the day, the need to fund these inclusion on the National Heritage List for England as operations is only as strong as the ideas that come listed buildings, statues and memorials can also be forward. There is a broader context here about who locally listed by local planning authorities. drives it. I have suggested that the House of Lords might have a role but we will need to think very widely As well as publishing guidance on the selection of when we do that and get across the issues that have statues and memorials for listing, Historic England been raised today in this good debate. has produced guidance on caring for cemetery monuments and war memorials. As part of the four-year First World War centenary commemorations, the Government 1.45 pm have made funding of £4.5 million available to conserve Baroness Buscombe (Con): My Lords, I thank all and protect war memorials. Here I pay particular noble Lords who have taken part in this interesting tribute to my noble friend Lord Cope, who does and far too short debate, particularly the noble Lord, fantastic work as a trustee of the War Memorials Lord Oates, for introducing it. I have also learned a Trust. Led by Historic England, in partnership with new name to describe myself: like the noble Viscount, Imperial War Museums, the War Memorials Trust Lord Falkland, I am something of a flâneur. I have and Civic Voice, the project is working with the public always loved looking at statues. The sad thing about to record, research, conserve and list war memorials life today is that we walk around with our heads down across Britain to ensure that they are protected and a lot of the time, not necessarily on the phone but we the people they commemorate are remembered. do not look up and there is so much to see in all our Historic England has pledged to nominate an cities. additional 2,500 war memorials for inclusion on the This nation’s many great statues and memorials National Heritage List for England. This campaign form an increasingly studied and enjoyed aspect of the will potentially triple the number of listed memorials, public realm. There are more than 1,300 mentions of which are thus ensured long-term protection. They statues on the National Heritage List for England, include many with fine sculptures by noted artists which gives a sense of their ubiquity. They are the such as Charles Sargeant Jagger and Eric Gill. Civic embodiments of our great history and include some of Voice is running workshops in local communities, the highest examples of the sculptor’s art. The recent teaching local people how to record the condition of a dispute over the statue and plaque in Oxford to Cecil memorial, how to apply for grant funding and how to Rhodes, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, get the memorial protected, ensuring a legacy of trained shows that some statues are capable of generating a volunteers. Communities and schools across the country GC 447 Historical Statues and Memorials[LORDS] Historical Statues and Memorials GC 448

[BARONESS BUSCOMBE] On the proposed memorial to commemorate are getting involved in this important project and I enslaved Africans, the idea of a permanent memorial entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria—we in London to remember the enslaved and their descendants need to encourage schools and young people in general was first mooted in 2002. We have heard all about this to get involved in this work and to understand the from the noble Lord, Lord Oates, and the noble Baroness, meaning and value of our memorials and statues. Lady Lawrence. As a result, the charity Memorial Since the 1990s, there has been a surge in the number 2007 was formed. Its goal was to erect a memorial on a of new memorials and statues erected. Recently,attention site in the rose gardens of London’sHyde Park. Following has been drawn to the imbalance in the number of the success of Memorial 2007 in securing planning statues of women. I am happy to say, particularly in permission for the proposed memorial from Westminster response to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, and Council in November 2016, the Royal Parks has indicated my noble friend Lord Finkelstein, that Historic England that it is open to discussion about locating it in Hyde is engaged in discussions with the Greater London Park, should Memorial 2007 raise the necessary Authority about a proposed new statue of a suffragette funds, including those necessary for the memorial’s in Parliament Square, so there is progress. maintenance. Recently, several statues in London with resonance Since the establishment of Memorial 2007, the for the black community were listed, including the Government have taken some important steps to mark statue of Nelson Mandela in Parliament Square.However, the bicentenary of the abolition of the slave trade, it must be said that some areas—particularly in London— including the opening in August 2007 of the International are becoming anxious that the number of recent memorials Slavery Museum in Liverpool. The Government provide is leading to an overcrowding in public spaces. The funding to the museum, which examines aspects of City of Westminster is one such area and has issued historical and contemporary slavery and is an international guidance about the process that applications for new hub for resources on human rights issues. My noble memorials should go through. There is a desire to friend Lord Cope talked about the different ways in encourage the erection of any new statues outside the which events that have taken place in our lives are core zone of Westminster. Removal of the requirement remembered, such as by the creation of amenities and to seek approval from the Secretary of State for Culture, museums. That museum has a focus, as referenced by Media and Sport before erecting a statue in London the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, on places local planning authorities firmly in control of human rights and the Magna Carta. this process. The Government also support the National Maritime It is right that many organisations, trusts, charities Museum in Greenwich, which also includes a permanent and commercial organisations are able to freely propose, exhibition, and we are delighted that the St James fund, develop and deliver memorials and statues marking Heritage Quarter of Toxteth, Liverpool, is recognising a great variety of historical moments. It would be its historical connection to the transatlantic slave trade. quite wrong for government somehow to orchestrate Both the Prime Minister and Home Secretary have and curate which memorials should be proposed. endorsed their campaign to establish a living memorial Government does not have sole responsibility for the to the victims of this dishonourable and abhorrent many new memorials that are rightly created. Of course, chapter of our history.The Government fully appreciate government supports memorials to mark particular the tremendous efforts of Memorial 2007 over the events. We are delivering a new national memorial in past decade, and in particular those of its chair,Miss Oku honour of British victims of overseas terrorism, as Ekpenyon MBE, with whom they continue to work. well as a memorial to the victims of the 2015 attacks in Sousse and at the Bardo museum in Tunisia. Memorials I also pay tribute to those in the Sikh community have also been created in honour of the victims of and what is perhaps still outstanding in that regard. I 9/11, the 7/7 bombings in London and the 2002 Bali assure my noble friend Lord Suri and the noble Lord, bombings. Lord Bilimoria, that the Government fully recognise the outstanding military contribution of Sikhs. We Government also supports a new suffragette memorial, very much welcomed the construction of a permanent and a memorial is being created by the independent memorial to Sikh soldiers at the National Memorial Iraq/Afghanistan Memorial Project charity to honour Arboretum, the year-round centre for the remembrance those who served in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. for the whole of the UK. I understand that government So, in some circumstances, government supports new was approached for assistance in identifying a central memorials, but it is not for it to determine which London site for this new memorial. However, as a memorials go ahead, and it is certainly—with limited great many people and organisations are interested in public funds—not possible for central government to establishing memorials, the general rule is that it is for fund all new memorials. There is a tradition of funding those bodies to raise the funding and work with the new memorials through public subscription. Government local planning authority to identify a suitable site. supports this and experience has shown that there are often other funders—including the private sector—who That said, there is of course the National Memorial are happy and willing to fund new memorials. That Arboretum, which brings me to the point referenced said, the Government offer support through the by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and something Memorials Grant Scheme, which allows charities and which I personally feel quite strongly about. Living faith groups to claim a grant that is equivalent to the amenities and living memorials—also referenced by VAT paid on the eligible costs of erecting, maintaining the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland—are in a sense for or repairing public memorials.The scheme is administered the future. The Woodland Trust has been working to by the DCMS for the whole of the UK. create a new generation of living memorials, which GC 449 Historical Statues and Memorials[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Mental Health: Young People GC 450 not only commemorate and celebrate the past but has been done in recent years in recognition of young contribute to the future. Like the noble Baroness, people’s mental health needs. I salute Norman Lamb Lady Lane-Fox, I too have done some digging with MP for his tenacity and excellent work on this. The the Woodland Trust on this. There have been a number Prime Minister, of course, mentioned mental health of debates in your Lordships’ House recently about last week. the loss of ancient woodland and the loss of more I hosted the launch of this report. There, I talked to trees as demand for housing grows. Perhaps the planting many parents who have the experience of supporting a of trees is a brilliant way to respond to that, in son or daughter with mental health needs.They expressed memoriam of different things that have happened. For agonies of feeling helpless, guilty, angry and sad at the example, there is the Wilberforce Oak, under which it lack of support. Many had sought private counselling is said William Wilberforce met the Prime Minister, as there was nothing available in the state system. The William Pitt, to take up the case for the abolition of report estimates that 36% of parents are in this position. slavery.Back in 2007, there was a rather special example. We must remember that young people are not just Two schools in Portsmouth planted trees to remember teenagers, but include children of primary school age the blood that was shed to ensure that slaves remained and younger. These children may show disturbing free after the abolition of the slave trade. behaviour—I do not mean just naughty behaviour, An amazing number of things are going on across which is perfectly normal, but distress, which needs the United Kingdom by which we mark different deciding upon and doing something about if it is not events in different ways. However, I assure all noble to become more serious. Lords that the Government take very seriously their Some of the parents had formed local parent groups. continuing commitment to the historic built environment, The question occurred to me: what if you cannot afford including its statues and memorials. Again, I thank all to get help? What if you do not have, for whatever noble Lords, and particularly the noble Lord, Lord reason, the initiative to set up a group? It seems that Oates, for taking part in this important debate. you just get left behind, feeling more and more distressed. I will give two moving quotations from the report. 1.58 pm First, a parent said: “It must be incredibly hard for a young person who’s in crisis Sitting suspended. themselves to then look at the one person they trust, who is sitting on the floor sobbing … thinking I have no idea what to do, and nobody’s helping me”. Mental Health: Young People Secondly, a young person said that, Question “if they were to empower my mum … then I would feel more empowered too”. 2 pm These are real cries for help. Asked by Baroness Massey of Darwen The report is part of a wider parenting project and reflects a survey of parents’ networks co-ordinated by To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Young Minds, which also does excellent work on the they plan to take in the light of the Association for broad aspects of young people and mental health. A Young People’s Health briefing There for you which thousand parents were involved—not parents who had discusses the role of parents in supporting young no voice at all, or those who are perhaps less engaged people with mental health problems. with their young person’s mental health problems, but it is a starting point for finding out what parents think. Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab): My Lords, I am A fuller profile of the parents taking part is given in delighted to have secured this debate on the very the short report. important and pressing issue of young people and The need for such research and action is clear. Half mental health, and the importance of parental support. of all adult psychiatric disorders start by the age of 14. The report is called There for You—an apt title, as I Only a quarter of young people referred to specialist shall discuss. I am grateful to the Association for services will be seen. Only 0.7% of the total NHS Young People’s Health, of which I am a proud patron, budget is spent on mental health services for the for presenting the results of its recent survey so cogently. under-18s. Things are simply not changing fast enough, I am very happy to see that the noble Lord, Lord despite all the excellent recommendations and reports. O’Shaughnessy, is responding to the debate. I am I ask the Minister: how might this be improved? aware of his interest in young people and we have Self-help is good, but it is not sufficient. Parents and often discussed their well-being in relation to character young people need a better deal. It is so much better to education and the links to personal, social and health treat such problems early, rather than wait. Costs, as education and life skills education. My noble friend well as human misery, inevitably increase the longer Lord Patel also has a fine track record in supporting there is lack of support. the development of initiatives in mental health. Many Parents say that there is a problem of waiting times noble Lords speaking today have a variety of perspectives for treatment. They are often left alone to cope. They on this, so I look forward to a lively debate. may have to take time off work, or go part-time or I will talk about some of the report’s background give up work. They struggle to find help or they may and proceed to repeat points made by parents. I will feel that they have something to offer but get sidelined. then seek the Minister’s acceptance of these points Many parents I talked to said that they needed more and his support. I recognise and appreciate that much guidance on how to offer help to the young person GC 451 Mental Health: Young People[LORDS] Mental Health: Young People GC 452

[BARONESS MASSEY OF DARWEN] 2.09 pm in need. Dealing with a young person in crisis can Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con): My Lords, I leave a parent feeling helpless, guilty and under-confident. thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for initiating Parents and families—such problems affect the whole this debate. Mental health is coming out of the shadows family—are desperate. Parents in the survey made and into the light. This generation will benefit from suggestions about how things could be improved. the greater awareness that their parents and grandparents I will recount some of their ideas. The first is the were denied. It is a largely taboo subject for older development of parent support groups. Parents are generations, and because of this, physical health is dealing with the stresses of their children’slives constantly. talked about far more openly than mental health—for Of course, parenting has its joyful aspects, but come a instance, we talk about children’s allergies but not crisis, parents and families often need help rather than their self-harming. having to cope on their own. Support groups are one Conversations about mental health issues should be way of helping. When I was chair of the National about hope and support, not shame and confusion. As Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse some years parents, we recognise when a child is physically unwell, ago—the noble Lord, Lord Patel, will remember that— but mental health is far more complicated. Differentiating support groups for users, parents, grandparents and between normal problems experienced by children families were prominent in aiding recovery and, frankly, and the kind of behaviour that could be the first signs keeping people sane.Some of those groups were supported of a mental disorder is difficult, yet we know that early by local authorities. Support could include practical intervention is the first step towards effective treatment. advice, with a dedicated worker to provide support. As the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, said, half of all Would that not be a way of helping parents with lifetime cases of mental illness begin by the age of 14. children and parents struggling with crises, especially Parents have a vital role in contributing to support mental health crises? Support could include practical and solutions for successful outcomes. Those who advice on where to go next in finding a CAMHS develop good communication skills are more likely to worker, for example, or other consistent key workers. pick up problems. Consistency is really important here. Having someone However, for parents to be able to give the support with professional expertise alongside them would be a required, they in turn must be listened to and supported. boon to parents. Parents can feel sidelined. Building resilience in the Secondly, parent support workers attached to schools family brings a better chance of helping a young were suggested as another means of helping parents. person in the long term. Making parents part of the Such a person might, for example, manage the interface solution can help reduce the need for crisis intervention. between services such as CAMHS, the school and the They have a critical role to play in joint decision-making. home. I certainly advocate a role for schools here. I It can be devastating and bewildering to realise that have long been convinced that much stress is created in something is seriously wrong, and that can be after schools by overtesting and overpressurising. That is parents have been struggling for months. Their first what children say. There is still no requirement for port of call is usually the GP. Here they should find schools to develop coherent programmes for delivering heightened awareness, information, advice and options ways of coping, such as personal, social and health available so that the right decisions can be made about education, character education, life skills—whatever supportive treatment, yet most GPs have very little we call it, children need it. mental health training. Is this going to change? Thirdly, parents stressed the need for and importance Schools have a vital role. Teachers are a large part of early intervention—help before the breaking point. of a young person’s life. Some 65% of primary school A triage-based service for all levels of mental health children were in contact with NHS mental services for issues is important, not just when they become crises. the year ending June 2016. Wemust focus on prevention, Parents also suggested that out-of-hours support such and parents and schools are central to that. Studies as telephone helplines could be important. They thought have shown that school-based counselling services have that parents could help design services and delivery. a positive impact on learning. Will the Minister confirm Involving those dealing with problems is always a that funding for this counselling will continue? better way of getting things right—my words, not Oliver Goldsmith Primary School in Peckham is theirs. delivering a new programme, funded by the South In reflecting on the results of this extremely helpful London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust, called and powerful survey, I do not underestimate factors CUES-Ed. The programme teaches children to recognise such as socioeconomic status, poverty and family the signs when things are not right, and behavioural situations. But any child, from any stratum of society techniques to help them to manage their mood. However, or any family, can develop mental health problems. We this is rare. What training are teachers getting in must recognise that, and act on developing the valuable dealing with mental health problems among role that parents can play as partners in such situations. schoolchildren? The time has come for joined-up decision- There may be some costs involved, but nothing making and care between healthcare professionals, extraordinary. In pure cash terms, the savings would parents and teachers. We must ensure that there is be enormous in the long run. In terms of distress, they access to effective treatment, that services are tailored would be even more enormous. and responsive to their communities, that children get Will the Minister reassure us that the Government the help they need and that parents are included so have their eye on this, and will he personally intervene they are part of the solution. Our children have the to encourage initiatives to help parents and young right to timely treatment, just as they would get with a people? I know that he knows it makes total sense. physical health problem. GC 453 Mental Health: Young People[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Mental Health: Young People GC 454

2.12 pm health services have risen dramatically in recent years Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB): My Lords, I too as increasing social pressures on our young people thank the noble Baroness,Lady Massey,for her leadership threaten the mental health of a generation. Issues on this issue. around body image are one area of particular concern, fuelled in part by the rise of social media. I want to There is no greater advocate for the change that the take this opportunity to pay tribute to my friend the internet has enabled than me. I see its benefits on a right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester for her daily basis and have worked my whole working life important work around body image and self-worth. within the sector. However, even I do not believe that we have yet understood, and developed the frameworks One statistic that has caused me concern, and which to help our children deal with, both the benefits and I have already mentioned in the House, is the rise in the destruction of this incredible revolution. self-harm among young boys and girls. Some 20% of There is so much to be positive about. I see my British 15 year-olds report some form of self-harm, nephews playing multiplayer games and building incredible while in the past five years hospital admissions associated things, connected to children they have never met with self-harm have gone up by nearly 93% among before across the world. I see my godchildren playing girls and 45% among boys. It is notable that of the chess in complicated ways with players they have never parents who participated in the report mentioned in seen before in countries all over the world. However, it the Question put by the noble Baroness in tabling this is hard to ignore some of the data and studies that also debate, 59% said that their child self-harmed. show how this technology is affecting children in a The charity selfharmUK, located in my diocese, negative way. The BBC says that 62% of children on does amazing work helping parents, youth workers its websites are looking for mental health-related data. and teachers understand and respond to the issues I look at this issue from a different angle: the number around self-harm. But for many who do not have of children who are using some of the networks that access to such resources, parents in particular, knowing were never intended for them. I declare an interest as a how to respond can be very difficult. It is all too easy director of Twitter. Although we do not have so many to panic and thereby sometimes make the situation children on our network, Facebook says that 52% of even worse. What seems to me to be absolutely essential eight year-olds sign up to Facebook, despite an age is readily available support and training for parents, limit of 14. I am not against social networks—quite teachers and youth workers about how to help children the opposite—but there are reasons why they are who are struggling with self-harm and similar mental age-appropriate. health conditions. I was very moved, as I am sure were The positives of this amazing technology must be other noble Lords, by the comments made in the past countered by an understanding from parents and teachers week by the broadcaster Mark Austin in the Times about what their children are really doing. I had a about his struggle to understand his daughter’s anorexia. small absence from your Lordships’ House as I now Can the Minister therefore inform the House what have seven-month-old identical twin boys, and this steps, in addition to the welcome mental health training issue is front and centre as they see me with my iPhone for teachers announced by the Prime Minister last or my iPad—probably too much—and immediately month, Her Majesty’s Government will take to make their faces turn towards it. I find this world hard to sure that parents and youth workers are able to access navigate; how it must be if you are living in one of the proper resources and support when it comes to 1 million families in this country who do not have understanding mental health in young people? basic digital skills, I dread to think, let alone if you are a teacher who may themselves be struggling with 2.18 pm understanding this complex new world, yet you are Lord Farmer (Con): My Lords, our young people responsible for a class of children who may be at live in a culture that seems to value them for their varying degrees of usage and attention in the classroom. outward appearance, their achievements and eloquence I feel strongly that we must create new ways of on social media and, grotesquely, their sexual allure at thinking about this problem. It starts with schools but an even more tender life stage. They are under a it must also be led by parents. I pay tribute to my noble significant amount of pressure and need reliable, loving friend Lady Kidron who has done a lot of work on foundations to thrive. Parents have a primary and children and their rights, but we need to go further. I indispensable role to play in providing these, so I am keen to understand how we could use more creative thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing thinking and I urge the Minister to consider this. this important debate. Some amazing people around the world are looking at As a sponsor-governor of the Ark School in the issue, and I cite Danah Boyd, who is based at Camberwell, I know about a whole-school approach Stanford, as a world-leading expert. I would love to where anti-bullying policies are not just words on a see how parents can be given comfort and reassurance page but part of a culture that prizes nurture, in these uncertain times so as to make sure that the encouragement and mutual support, all of which are benefits continue to outweigh some of the dangers. vital. Equally, on-site counselling and therapy when children are clearly struggling with specific issues is 2.15 pm needed. However, my heart sinks when the solutions The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, there are to young people’s mental health problems are deemed few more urgent issues in modern Britain than the to begin at the school gate given that much support, state of mental health among our young people, and I and in many cases the underlying contributors to their thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for tabling difficulties, is to be found at home. While there is an this important debate. Referrals to specialist mental important parenting dictum that says, “Don’t take all GC 455 Mental Health: Young People[LORDS] Mental Health: Young People GC 456

[LORD FARMER] satisfaction, compared with 12% of heterosexuals. Of the credit, don’t take all the blame”, another aspect of those who had been bullied in the period under question, our culture which erodes so many young people’s 74.5% were lesbian and gay and 81% were bisexual, sense of well-being and good mental health is the compared with 53.4% who were heterosexual. These pervasiveness of contingent commitment in adult are 15 year-olds, crying out for help but help is not relationships—the sense that, “I will be there for you coming their way. These young people are crying out only as long as my needs are being met”. to be understood, especially among their own community The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, who will contribute and within their social structures. That is why we need to the debate later, describes how this transition in the comprehensive sex education that is mandatory, not ethics of personal life flows from living in a society something that schools or religious organisations can with a high divorce rate, yet the toll this takes on our opt in or out of, so that people are not bullied or children’s mental health means we must not treat mistreated but are understood. current levels of instability in parental relationships as We need action plans to prevent the damage that is inevitable. In the past, many children had to face the inflicted upon young children from a very early age. world alone because of the death of one or more of That harm affects us all. Parental support is not their parents, but today’s high level of family breakdown always there for LGBTI children because, for that to can feel like a much more intentional wound. Professor happen, the child would have to come out to their Brad Wilcox’s new research shows that we have more parents or teachers, and sometimes they are not ready children living in unstable families than anywhere else or able to do so. If you put religious adherence in to in the developed world. Researchers at the Institute of this mix, the damage is toxic. Young people are shut Psychiatry showed that experiencing family fracture out from families and religious communities and cast and separation from a parent in childhood are risk aside. There are some organisations doing great work factors for later serious mental health disorders. Finally, in challenging circumstances, such as FFLAG, of which US research found that low-conflict separation can I am a patron. However, they are underresourced and also cause great harm. Children blame themselves and always in demand. Schools Out is another, and is assume that relationships are fundamentally unreliable. working hard to educate, particularly in this LGBT Strong, stable families lay the foundations for life. History Month. I urge the Minister to work cross- Family breakdown has implications for population-wide departmentally with these organisations and others to mental ill health—we ignore this at our children’s ensure that no child suffers. peril. Will the Minister let us know what the Government 2.24 pm are doing to strengthen and stabilise families? Does he Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick (CB): My Lords, I, agree that every government department has a role to too, am deeply grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady play in tackling our big cultural problem of family Massey, for allowing us to debate this issue. I am very breakdown? grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, for framing the very remarks I would have made myself so I shall 2.21 pm admit to needing to refer to similar matters. Lord Cashman (Lab): My Lords, I too wish to place This debate has given me the opportunity to reflect on record my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady on what it means to be the parent of an adopted child Massey. I welcome the briefing There For You. It is who came from a severely drug-disabled parent and eloquent, and the parents involved in the survey are therefore spent the early months of his life in an hands-on, informed and know how to connect. But incubator without contact with adults and then developed what about those who do not? What about those who significant distress disorders, which we live with now are not connected and who, in fact, feel disconnected in his adult years. That led me to look at the detail of from where to seek help or advice? These are the the research and to realise that mental disorder is groups that we need to target and, I would argue, often picked out as being about the distress that a prioritise—those who are unable to recognise or cope young person or individual may feel, rather than with the reality that their child may have a mental necessarily being about a strict form of behaviour. health problem. We need to remove the stigmas and Anxiety and distress lie behind the statistics from barriers around discussion. In that respect, some of us Young Minds, which I found very painful, of the high need to come out and admit how all of us, to a greater levels of male and female suicide—tragically, the girls or lesser degree, battle with mental health problems are slightly beaten by the boys. That led me to reflect that our friends and colleagues so rarely understand on how as parents we have responded to the needs of or acknowledge as a health issue. We need to deal with our youngest son. the causes of mental health problems, both physiological In my son’s distress and confusion, and very often and psychological. in his pursuit of answers, more than just parents have In that regard, I wish to say a few words about been necessary to assist him. As I looked at the report, young people who are overlooked and often fall through I realised that there may well be a limitation on how the safety nets we try to construct: lesbian, gay, bisexual, we understand the role of parenting as defined as trans and intersex youths. The 2014 What about YOUth? those who have a direct birth or adoptive responsibility. survey of 15 year-olds presents deeply worrying facts In our case, the wider community of parents—those that have, sadly, been overlooked by the Department from the church community, the local garden centre, of Health and the Department for Education. The the café and the Outward Bound community; those research revealed that 31% of lesbian and gay 15 year- connected to the school; those who have been adoptive olds and 39% of bisexual 15 year-olds had low life uncles and good friends in the wider area and those GC 457 Mental Health: Young People[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Mental Health: Young People GC 458 whom he can drop in on in the shops—those people Finally, I feel that by debating issues of young do not fit the category of “parent” but they are people suffering mental health problems we are making parenting. They are providing a context of security, a sure that mental health problems are everyone’sproblems. relationship and a place of identity, and it is that Much more needs to be done. network of identities that gives security to young men and women who long to find a place in which they can 2.30 pm reveal their minds and hearts and release their distress. Lord Giddens (Lab): My Lords, I shall make some I hope that we will begin to move away from the liberal remarks about anorexia and obesity in children and consensus that defines security only in relation to young people, subjects that I have spent a chunk of my those by whom a child is cosseted for their protection academic career studying. Anorexia has the highest to a more open approach to allow our communities, as death rate of any psychiatric disorder. Childhood would be the case in more traditional societies in other obesity, as we all know, has taken on the characteristics continents, to love a child in a community. of a huge epidemic: 20% of children aged 10 and 11 are obese in England and Wales. They seem separate 2.27 pm conditions, almost opposites, but they are very closely linked. Both should be categorised as in some part Baroness Redfern (Con): My Lords, I thank the mental disorders and are becoming so. The link is noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this debate. obsession-compulsion in relation to food and the body. I declare my interests as in the register. Bulimia is like a bridge between the two in the experience Parents and carers play a huge part in supporting of some young people. any young person, especially, as we have heard, one There is a kind of unbelievable historical reversal who is struggling with mental health difficulties. Parents going on here. Being fat was a characteristic of rich have more personal, intimate knowledge than a people and affected a tiny proportion of people in professional would, and therefore can greatly support history. Anorexia was not even diagnosed until the late their child’s recovery. Maternal instinct can quickly 19th century and was only known in the activities of pick up changes in a young person that the young saints fasting for the glory of God. Then about 50 years person may not be aware of. Motivating a young ago we had an amazing generalisation, not just in this person even to take their medication can be very country but across the world, of these linked conditions. challenging in many instances, as can supporting them Tome, the main driving force is the advent of supermarket in attendance of classes. Attendance at school or culture from about the 1950s and 1960s. This was the college offers greater independence in managing their time when one had to decide what to eat in relation to mental health and providing continued support as how to be and we found an invasion of the body by they become an adult. compulsions and addictions. It is important for parents to be able to take time to I became interested in anorexia one weekend when care for themselves, too, and they need help, support I picked up two colour supplements of the Sunday and reassurance that they are doing the right thing. papers. One had a starving teenager in Africa and the The question is: where would we be without our carers other had a starving teenager in the United States in in the NHS system? Many parents and carers have no the midst of an abundance of food. I thought that mental health qualifications. They are not mental these conditions must be totally different, and so they health professionals. Sometimes it is hard for them to are. We can be sure that these do not have genetic know when they, too, need extra support. In many origins and the family and the peer group are plainly cases they can feel isolated. That is where organisations important influences. The family has a double role, such as Young Minds come into play, as well as other obviously,because it can be causative in mental disorders organisations such as parent support groups. as well as therapeutic. The work of the AYPH, which Time is of the essence for assessments and referral we are discussing today, is valuable here and slots into times. As we know, in many cases early intervention wider academic research. prevents a young person falling into crisis. This debate I have a couple of quick questions for the Minister. provides an opportunity to raise the profile of and Are the plans to combat eating disorders announced highlight our young people’s mental health issues, in January 2016 still on track? What happened to the keeping them to the fore. Mental health training for waiting time targets for teenagers with eating disorders? teachers and staff is to be welcomed but I would like Finally,what progress has been made with the conclusions to see a much more co-ordinated approach to training, of the document Childhood Obesity: A Plan for Action, developing strong links with schools, communities which also came out in 2016? and mental health staff, and hope to see a reduction in rollout time. 2.33 pm I shall give two brief examples. The first is of a Baroness Fall (Con): I thank the noble Baroness, young person’sesteem using Snapchat. She took 15 images Lady Massey of Darwen, for securing this important before she could make a choice. She self-harmed and debate and for drawing our attention to the pivotal wanted to change her body image so she enhanced role that parents play in supporting young people with the snap chosen, giving herself a tan, using soft focus, mental health problems. We bring our children into a et cetera, giving a much better outward appearance complex and difficult world, in which the lines between until she felt better about herself. The second example private and public are blurred and which operates 24/7 is of a young person suffering from loneliness, sleeping in 360 degrees through the likes of Facebook and intermittently, desperately wanting to answer a text Instagram. Our children never get a day off. Of course, quickly if sent very late at night, or even during the older generations have always gazed with incomprehension night, so as not to miss out or be left out the next time. at their children, bemoaning the lost values of their youth, GC 459 Mental Health: Young People[LORDS] Mental Health: Young People GC 460

[BARONESS FALL] have a huge impact on children’s mental health. This and we are no different. Nor are we unusual in wanting debate is all the more timely, taking place during to do our best for them, not just because as parents it Children’sMental Health Week. Recent research revealed is our duty, but also because we have an obligation as a that up to two-thirds of children aged 10 and 11 worry society to care for our young. They are, after all, our all the time, with concerns about family and friends future. topping the list of causes of anxiety. Figures released I am deeply troubled by the serious rise in mental last week show that more than 50,000 young people health issues among children and young people in turned to ChildLine last year because of a serious Britain today and the often inadequate help they are mental health problem. In the light of these very receiving, which puts enormous strain on them and worrying figures, it is hard to overstate the importance their families. A lightning review by the Children’s of the role of parents in supporting children with Commissioner in May last year stated that as many as mental health problems. one in 250 children were referred to what is known as In the time available, I can make only two key CAMHS by professionals. Of those, 28% were not points. First, parents are a vital support and often a allocated a service at all and 58% went on a waiting lifeline to children with mental ill-health. Given that list. These are children in desperate need of help, who parents spend more time with their child than anyone are often being turned away or asked to wait a long else involved, they have a crucial role in advocating on time for treatments, left with no one else to turn to but behalf of and supporting their child through difficult their parents. Parents often try to do all they can to times. However, as the results from the “There for help, but they are not trained specialists and can feel you” survey show, too often parents feel unprepared alone and overwhelmed by the responsibility and at and ill-equipped to support their child and consequently times frightened for the safety of their child. struggle to play the vital role that they would like to. The recent paper “There for you” says: Indeed, the YoungMinds parents’ helpline found that “The practical impact on parents can be extensive. In order to 41% of parents said that they felt excluded from their care for their young people, many have to take time off work, go child’s treatment, with other parents saying that they part-time, take unpaid leave, or resign from jobs entirely”. felt confused and isolated. We have to acknowledge There seems to be a corrosive combination of factors that for a variety of reasons, some already mentioned, at work: a rising demand for help; frozen health budgets; some parents are simply unable to provide the support a system of tough thresholds, which means that many that their children need. Obviously, there is a particular referrals are turned away altogether; and long, painful issue for children in care. Another specific concern waits for those who are lucky enough to get referred. that I want to highlight is perinatal mental health. More Too often, by the time help is at hand the situation has than one in five mothers develop a mental health deteriorated and the child may face no other option illness during pregnancy or in the first year after birth. than being admitted to hospital. That is a terrible The knock-on effect of a mother’s perinatal depression outcome for everyone. Taking the child out of their on the mental health of her child can be severe. social environment, away from their families and friends, My second point is that, as the noble Lord, Lord can make recovery times far longer and more painful Farmer,reminded us, the quality of parental relationships and puts enormous pressure on parents, given that has a significant impact on children’swell-being. Children many of these places and sought-after beds are in growing up with parents who have low parental conflict, hospitals miles away. whether together or separated, enjoy better physical We have a serious problem, but one that I hope we and mental health, better emotional well-being and are finally waking up to. I commend the Government’s higher educational attainment. Conversely, research recent intervention in this area and look forward to indicates that parents who engage in frequent, intense hearing more when their Green Paper comes out later and poorly-resolved conflict put their children’s mental this year. I especially welcome their focus on training health and long-term life chances at risk. In a recent teachers in schools, although I hope that that is extended survey of more than 4,000 children, family relationship to primary schools, where mental health issues so problems were reported by CAMHS clinicians as being often begin. the biggest presenting issue. However, diagnosis is one thing; treatment is another. We must promote greater involvement of children We will never get to the heart of this problem while and parents in children’s treatment and do all that we there are still rigid thresholds, rejected referrals and can to ensure that effective resources are available to unacceptable waiting lists. We must try to intervene parents. I pay tribute to the free confidential parent earlier and more aggressively. I also wonder whether helpline run by YoungMinds and its Parents Say network, we should not be looking for more creative solutions, bringing together parents to form a vital support working together with schools and the voluntary sector— network. Policy solutions and interventions need to perhaps in setting up drop-in clinics where parents and take account of the wider family relationship in which children might seek support from outside the system. children live and are supported. I urge the Government I welcome the concerns echoed across the Committee to prioritise support for parental-couple relationships today and ask that we keep our eye on the ball, for we in wider government policy, to reduce one of the often cannot afford to let things go on as they are. unspoken root causes of children’smental health problems.

2.38 pm 2.41 pm Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD): My Lords, I Lord Patel of Bradford (Lab): My Lords, I am congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on grateful to my noble friend Lady Massey for giving securing this vital debate.Parental and family relationships us the opportunity to debate this important and GC 461 Mental Health: Young People[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Mental Health: Young People GC 462 pressing issue. She has great expertise in the care and 2.44 pm welfare of children and young people, which is evident TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department in all the contributions that she makes to the House. It of Health (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con): My Lords, I has been an interesting debate and noble Lords have pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, both raised a number of important questions. I look forward for bringing about this debate and for the work she has to the Minister’s response; given the challenging done over many years in promoting the issues of mental environment, I do not envy him. health and mental well-being. I am extremely grateful The Government pledged £1.25 billion for improving to all noble Lords for this well-informed and passionate children’s mental health services and £250 million to debate, and will try to respond in my speech to as many improve CAMHS provision for each year of this questions as possible. Parliament. However, in spite of these commitments at a national level, those funds are not reaching children’s I also welcome the report from the Association for mental health services and disinvestment is taking Young People’s Health, and thank the parents in the place at local level. The Government would argue that YoungMindsnetwork for their courage and honesty in there have been no reductions in funding; in essence, discussing the very difficult issues they face in raising that is correct, as there have been no direct cuts from children with mental health problems. Parents deal central government. However, we know that the NHS with so much, often under the radar, and they deserve is underfunded and social care is in crisis. The cuts to our praise and admiration. As the noble Lord, Lord CAMHS budgets are the result of reduced funding to Hastings, said, the concept of being a parent, in the the NHS and local authorities, which then make cuts sense of parenting as an activity, goes much wider. As to local services and staffing levels. The impact of all my noble friend Lady Redfern said, mental health this, as so graphically highlighted by a number of problems are everyone’s problems. noble Lords, is that children and young people and We must be clear, as noble Lords have been very their parents are unable to access services when they clear today, that there is a real and growing problem most need them. with mental illness among young people in this country. In January this year, the Government announced It is estimated that around one in 10 children and that they would be publishing a Green Paper on young people have a diagnosable mental health disorder. children and young people’s mental health. Will the That is three children in every class, a fact worth Minister give us an indication of when this will be reflecting on for a moment. A new report out today published? I understand that the Green Paper will from the Varkey Foundation paints an alarming picture contain new proposals for improving services across of young people’s mental well-being in this country as the system and increasing the focus on preventive compared to other countries. activity across all delivery partners. I warmly welcome When I was growing up, self-harm was a problem, this, but with a note of caution. but on a very small scale. However, over the last I have four questions for the Minister. First, will he 10 years the figure has increased by 68% and, as the assure us that the proposals will be adequately funded? right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, said, it Secondly, as the Government will not interfere with now affects boys as well as girls. Around 8,000 children local decision-making or ring-fence money, how can under the age of 10 have severe depression—another he assure us that any national funding is used as heart-rending statistic—and the number of 15 and intended by the local commissioning groups? Thirdly, 16 year-olds with depression nearly doubled between I welcome the focus on preventive activity across all the 1980s and the 2000s. delivery partners—education, health, social care and As the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, said, eating the voluntary sector—which I believe is a crucial part disorders are some of the most dangerous mental of the solution to developing a good quality of care, a illnesses, and their prevalence continues to rise. There point echoed by the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm. are multiple, sometimes competing, explanations for Are the Government proposing to issue guidance that why this might be so, which several noble Lords have will direct these partners to develop new ways of discussed today, whether family breakdown, as my delivering children and young people’s mental health noble friend Lord Farmer mentioned, the increased services that are collaborative and integrated? They use of drink and drugs, the appalling rate of mental should look at innovation, given the point raised by illness among children in care, or the effects of thenobleBaroness,LadyLane-Fox,aroundtechnology—I consumerism, as the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, set think that the noble Baroness, Lady Fall, mentioned out. This means that a broad-based approach is needed. that, too. There is, unfortunately, no silver bullet. But there is Fourthly, any new proposals must involve service hope. users. Will the Minister assure us, in the spirit of the While the trends have largely been negative in terms report “There for you”, that the people who use services of the prevalence of mental illness, a sea-change in and their families are placed firmly at the centre of any attitudes is taking place. As the noble Lord, Lord plans in a meaningful, not tokenistic, way, in order to Cashman, described so eloquently, this has particular ensure that their voices are listened to, heard and impacts on certain groups, particularly on minorities, acted on, especially those very vulnerable young people whether according to sexual preference or ethnic whom my noble friend Lord Cashman highlighted in minorities. Through concerted efforts by medical his speech? It is vital that we build a sustainable future professionals, parents, young people themselves, for children and young people’s mental health services. campaigners, politicians and even the Royal Family, To do anything less risks failing an entire generation we are at last confronting the stigma of mental illness. of children and young people. It is finally becoming acceptable to admit mental GC 463 Mental Health: Young People[LORDS] Mental Health: Young People GC 464

[LORD O’SHAUGHNESSY] eating disorders; these will be in place from April 2017. health problems without it connoting some kind of There is more funding, but there are challenges, as we personal weakness, as my noble friend Lady Chisholm, know, in getting it through to the front line. I will pointed out. respond to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, Government policy has both led and evolved in later. response to this change. I am very proud to serve a I think we have also launched today the next stage Prime Minister who is deeply committed to ending of piloting the single point of contact, which will “burning injustices”. What greater injustice could there benefit children in 1,200 more schools. The voluntary be than to receive inferior healthcare because your sector is doing pioneering work in this area, whether needs are mental, not physical? The previous Conservative through Place2Be’s counselling services or through the and Liberal Democrat Government legislated to create proposals for a new national parenting trust emerging parity of esteem for mental and physical health in from the Legatum Institute, where I used to be a senior 2012, and since then the Government have introduced fellow, and which will provide parent support groups the first mental health waiting time targets and have to help parents in a very challenging time of life. begun to roll out a series of initiatives—supported by I am delighted that the Government have committed an additional £1.4 billion—to support those suffering to creating a joint Department for Education and from mental illness, including support for young people Department of Health Green Paper on children and suffering from eating disorders and to support perinatal young people’s mental health. The aim is to publish it mental health, which the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, this year. I am also clear that this will succeed only if it highlighted as being so critical. boosts parents’ ability to support their children to deal However, it is important to acknowledge that there successfully with mental illness. It is essential to involve is much more do to. There are concerns that funding is parents in that policy-making. Mental health is being not getting through to the front line, as the noble transformed in this country through local transformation Lord, Lord Patel, said—and as other Peers have said plans which have parents and young people themselves in other debates—and it must be admitted, as my taking part in the design of policies. noble friend Lady Fall pointed out, that the performance I take the opportunity to respond to some of the of child and adolescent mental health services is patchy. specific questions noble Lords have raised. My noble Care also needs to be delivered closer to home wherever friend Lady Chisholm asked about mental health training possible, as my noble friend pointed out. The Government for GPs. That is something NHS England is working are aware of these criticisms and are working hard on actively with the Royal College of General Practitioners. with NHS and local authority partners to address them. She will also be aware, I hope, of the Prime Minister’s The report we are discussing today revolves around really important and signal announcement, which outlined the role of parents, and some of the quotes in it are, that there would be mental health training for mental quite frankly, heart-breaking. They lay bare the health first aid in secondary schools. However, I very helplessness and frustration that many parents feel. As much take the point of the noble Baroness, Lady some noble Lords may know, I have spent the last few Lane-Fox, who talked about that going into primary years working in education and in schools we always schools too. talk about parents as being the “first educators”. That The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, also talked is relevant here because in health we can think of them about the impact of social media and social networks. as the “first carers”—the first line of both defence and My oldest child is nearly nine years old and I am action, as the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, pointed out. frankly terrified by the prospect of her joining social Government policy must be geared to strengthening media. There is a kind of fascination with devices and parents’ ability to provide the love and support that everything that goes beyond it. You try to explain to makes young people more resilient, and to arming them that there may be more bad out there than good, them with the skills and knowledge needed to identify but they are desperate to be part of it. and respond to the signs of mental illness when it The Prime Minister announced initiatives on digital occurs. The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, asked for mental health services, but clearly there is much more my personal support in making sure that there is that we can do through the Green Paper and she was increasing support for parents through government quite right to point out that businesses need to take policy and I am happy to give it. responsibility, too, whether that means the social media There are some good examples of government policies businesses themselves—I can imagine that she is a that are working in this area. The Department for forceful advocate for that on the board of Twitter—or Work and Pensions supports parenting classes aimed other businesses. The Prime Minister has asked the at reducing family conflict, which has been raised as noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and Paul Farmer from an issue. The Department for Education supports the Mind to carry out a review on mental health in the YoungMinds Parents’Helpline and the MindEd website, workplace. which provide parents with guidance on a range of The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans parenting issues related to mental health. There is also asked about support for parents. Some 90% of the the Family Test, which was introduced by the previous local transformation plans that I have mentioned have Government and which my noble friend Lord Farmer parenting and early years programmes. Clearly, for was instrumental in bringing about. this to be an effective strategy, it must involve getting The NHS England Five Year Forward View for to parents and families early, before problems arise, so mental health has put mental illness at the forefront of that parents and young people, as they get older, have NHS reforms. The noble Lords, Lord Cashman and the skills they need to spot and deal with mental Lord Giddens, asked about waiting time targets for illnesses as they arrive. GC 465 Mental Health: Young People [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Syria GC 466

My noble friend Lord Farmer asked what else the Baroness Cox (CB): My Lords, I am profoundly Government are doing to support families. There is a grateful to all noble Lords who are speaking in this troubled families programme and, since 2010, there debate and to those, such as my noble friend Lord has also been the healthy child programme, which Wright of Richmond, who have expressed their support provides health visitor support in the home. As well as but are unable to be present. I am also grateful to that, there is the Family Nurse Partnership, which another former British ambassador to Syria, Peter Ford, provides targeted support for young mothers who are who has provided invaluable briefing. vulnerable. My concerns arise from a visit last September in The noble Lord, Lord Cashman, highlighted the response to invitations from the Melkite Patriarch, the issue of LGBTI people suffering from worse mental Grand Mufti and leaders of Christian and Muslim health. I admit that is something I was not aware of communities in Aleppo. Our programme was arranged prior to this debate. I am grateful to him for raising it. by friends in Syria and was not organised by the I understand that in general there is a problem in Government. We met many Syrians in Damascus, mental health, in both prevalence and treatment, when Aleppo, Maaloula and Latakia, including representatives it comes to equalities issues, which fall under my brief. of Muslim, Christian and Yazidi communities; members That is something I will certainly look into. It is critical of government and internal opposition parties; civil that we reflect that in policy. society organisations such as the senior council of The noble Lord also raised mandatory sex and doctors in Aleppo; IDPs in Latakia who had fled for relationships education and PSHE. That is a debate I their lives from ISIS and ISIS-related militias; and engaged with when I was on the Back Benches. I do survivors of ISIS attacks in Maaloula. not want to reprise the whole argument now, not least We also met President Assad, a meeting for which because I am in a rather different role, but the issue is we received vehement criticism in the media and by one of quality, not necessarily making something the FCO. Westand by our decision to meet the President, compulsory if it is not very good. We need to focus on not because we are uncritical but because only by making it good, then the argument to make it compulsory meeting can one raise concerns and learn about current may be easier to make. and proposed policies. I hope I have answered the questions asked by the Many noble Lords will have seen newspaper coverage noble Lord, Lord Giddens, on waiting times targets. I this weekend condemning Assad for atrocities—including apologise: it was my noble friend Lady Fall who made the killing of 13,000 people in Saydnaya prison—citing the point about this applying to primary schools. She a report attributed to Amnesty’s Beirut office. Time also asked about drop-in centres. I hope she will have permits me only briefly to address three issues related noticed that in the Prime Minister’s announcement on to those allegations. mental health there was rather an interesting and First, the fact of torture in Syrian jails is well innovative idea about supporting crisis cafés and drop-in known, is cause for genuine concern and is in no way centres, which are precisely the kind of informal setting condoned, but there is a serious asymmetry in these that it might be easier for a young person to access to reports. There is no mention of the conditions under get the support they need. which Syrian soldiers and many civilians are held by There is so much more that could be said on this Islamist militants or of the atrocities perpetrated by subject. I hope I have given noble Lords confidence those militias, including torture, beheadings and slaughter that the Government are taking this seriously. We have of civilians by suicide bombs. When we were in Syria, this wonderful opportunity of a Green Paper. We have a suicide bomber attacked the checkpoint at Homs, to develop it. I do not know what a pre Green Paper is killing more than 30 people, presumably including called, but we are in that phase. It feels to me that families burned alive in their cars in the queues. Secondly, there is a large and important bucket that can be filled these reports are accepted uncritically as true. However, with brilliant ideas. I have some more ideas for how we in 2014, photographs of an oddly similar number of might do that, but I hope this is the first of many corpses were proven to be a farrago of half-truths. The debates on this issue. I am absolutely open to all Peers third issue is timing. The report, apparently a year in to discuss ideas they may have to make that a real gestation, emerges now, when it can do maximum milestone in mental health services, mental health harm to the chances of success of the peace process treatment and building resilience in this country. I emerging out of the recent talks in Astana. look forward to working with noble Lords to make The report by our group which visited Syria is sure parents play a central role in that strategy. widely available and I want to highlight our priority concerns, which are still relevant despite the seismic 2.57 pm changes which have taken place since September. First, Sitting suspended. everyone to whom we spoke in Syria was deeply disturbed by the UK Government’scommitment to regime change. But Her Majesty’s Government retain their unabashed Syria commitment to a transition culminating in the departure Question of President Assad. Transition is therefore just a euphemism for regime change. 3 pm Leaving rights and wrongs to one side, it is delusional to pretend that Assad will have to step down. Following Asked by Baroness Cox the recovery of eastern Aleppo, he is now in a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their commanding position on the battlefield, with domestic assessment of recent developments in Syria. and external support bolstering his position. HMG should GC 467 Syria [LORDS] Syria GC 468

[BARONESS COX] registration centre and other reception centres, as tens realise that were Assad to do as they wish, the first to of thousands of refugees from east Aleppo fled to suffer would be the Syrian people. Everyone whom we government-controlled areas. I quote from his report: met was deeply afraid that Assad’s departure would “The voices of the civilians emerging from ‘rebel’-controlled cause implosion of the regime, leading to catastrophes East Aleppo were absolutely consistent—of the brutal murder similar to those in Iraq and Libya. I ask the Minister and execution by the ‘rebels’ of anyone who opposed them; the why Her Majesty’s Government are not listening, for killing of men, women and children who tried to flee; regular example, to the faith leaders in Syria, both Christian torture and rape of civilians; the withholding of food to civilians, or selling food at exorbitant prices; the withholding of medical and Muslim, almost all of whom are urging the aid to those in need even when they begged for assistance; telling international community to engage with the Syrian civilians that they would be killed by the army if they fled to Government. government-controlled areas; and, that if they did not adhere to Secondly, there is widespread, understandable dismay the ‘rebel’ ideology, they were not real ‘Muslims’ but were ‘infidels’ and anger over the UK continuing to provide opposition and deserved to die. Also those refugees who fled from East Aleppo who knew of the widely acclaimed ‘White Helmets’ Islamist militias with practical assistance, including (many didn’t) repeatedly said that ‘they only helped the terrorists’. training, equipment, help with propaganda and diplomatic They were all visibly delighted to be free, and were being given support. Helping to sustain the armed opposition can food, medical assistance and shelter on arrival. The narratives of only prolong the suffering of the Syrians to no purpose these people directly contradict all that the western media were whatever. So many people told us: “War is terrible. reporting for months previously”. People die from shelling on both sides. But here, you In the last month, efforts at restoring facilities, opening die from shelling or you die from shelling and beheadings. schools and making areas of eastern Aleppo habitable And we don’t want the beheadings”. I therefore ask have already begun. Many people are asking why no the Minister why the UK is continuing to support the one is reporting these positive developments in post- Islamist “rebels”, when the consistent word from the conflict situations in east Aleppo. Syrians, who have suffered under their brutal tyranny, Her Majesty’s Government’s position is coupled is that the “moderates” no longer exist and the vast with an insistence on maintaining sanctions. These majority of these groups have extreme ideologies and greatly harm Syrian civilians, who cannot obtain medical no intention of creating a democracy in Syria. supplies such as prostheses, more than they harm the Thirdly, there has been widespread dismay over the Government. It is also sometimes claimed that Assad long-standing reporting by the BBC and other Western is not really fighting ISIS. To that, I say: tell that to the media which is perceived to be very biased, focusing brave defenders of Deir ez-Zor, the people of Palmyra on the suffering resulting from military offences by the or the inhabitants of Damascus and the Homs Syrian and Russian armies, with no comparable coverage countryside, for whom all that stands between them of the suffering inflicted by ISIS and other Islamist and beheadings are the government forces. military offensives, including the use of cluster bombs I take this opportunity to record that the people of and chemical weapons. The latest case of indiscriminate Syria are profoundly grateful to Russia for taking ISIS abuse of an innocent population has been largely seriously and assisting them by defending their people ignored by the western media. It is the month-long against its barbarities. I ask the Minister: what is Her poisoning by diesel fuel, and later the complete cutting Majesty’s Government’s position with regard to the off, of the water supply to Damascus by so-called Astana talks, which appear to be the only current moderate jihadists between late December 2016 and initiative likely to deliver a policy capable of defusing late January 2017. Water supplies were restored only the present situation? after the Syrian military diverted significant forces In conclusion, I open this debate with a heavy heart from other fronts and retook the Wadi Barada springs and with deep sadness because I have seen a glimpse of from the jihadists in a major military attack. the suffering of the people of Syria under the onslaught The bias in media reporting seems to be intent on of ISIS and related Islamist jihadists. I am all the more demonising President Assad and his Government and sad because I have seen that suffering exacerbated by drawing a veil over the atrocities perpetrated by the UK polices of support for the jihadists, and I am Islamist forces. On 13 December the House of Commons deeply saddened by Her Majesty’s Government’s held an emergency debate on Aleppo. The Foreign continuing commitment to regime change, by whatever Secretary underlined condemnation of the offensive name, which is profoundly dreaded by the people of against eastern Aleppo, the importance of protecting Syria. Will Her Majesty’s Government reconsider their civilians and an ongoing commitment to bring about a entrenched position, which has exacerbated the suffering political settlement in Syria. That statement by the of the people of Syria, and allow the people of Syria Foreign Secretary raises many questions. Why do the the democratic right and the dignity to choose their vast majority of civilians from east Aleppo chose to own future? If that involves re-electing President Assad, flee to government-controlled areas if they are all so that is their right to do so and a right that we should terrified of the Government, apart from a small minority respect. who joined the evacuation of terrorists to Idlib? Why, after months of lamenting the plight of 300,000—a grossly exaggerated figure, by the way; it turned out to 3.10 pm be 130,000—civilians in east Aleppo, has there been so Lord Risby (Con): My Lords, I congratulate the little media coverage of what had actually been going on? noble Baroness, Lady Cox. She is absolutely right to Reverend Andrew Ashdown, who organised our highlight the extent of the humanitarian horror of the September visit, was in Aleppo as the city was liberated. Syrian crisis. I applaud her for her efforts on behalf of He visited areas of east Aleppo including the Jibrin the Christian community that is left there, and in GC 469 Syria [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Syria GC 470 essence agree with her vision. I personally mourn the and Syria, it was clear that there was. I came back and death of a great friend, the Archbishop of Aleppo, told the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, but when he sent who disappeared and was presumably killed. out Sir Nigel Sheinwald, what was engaged in was the In 2000 I attended the funeral in Damascus of kind of finger-wagging diplomacy that informed the President Hafez al-Assad, representing the Opposition. President that if he did not do what Britain wanted, it It was the first time that I met his son Bashar, and would be the worse for him. I mention that because there were great hopes that he would modernise the it seems to me that the attitude of Her Majesty’s economy. Indeed there was some progress, and the Government to Syria and the regime there has been new President fully protected the minorities. However, part of the problem rather than part of the solution, when minor demonstrations broke out in Syria, and going back a very long way. To come to the view in after some hesitation, President Assad ruthlessly cracked almost any conflict, particularly in the Middle East down, and the rest is history. It was a grotesque which I know quite well, that there are good guys on misjudgment and wholly unnecessary. Had we and one side and bad guys on the other, simply lines you others taken out his capacity to rain cluster bombs, up with one side or the other so that you become part barrel bombs and chemical weapons on his population of the problem rather than part of the solution. by bombing his airfields, he would have been forced to When the war itself broke out subsequent to a the conference table. We never did, though, and our failed attempt at revolution—indeed, apart from in support for opposition groups was limited and sometimes Tunisia, none of the attempted revolutions in the wholly counterproductive. Middle East has been positive and successful—I urged As a result of the Russians moving in substantially Her Majesty’s Government not to engage militarily or in 2015, Assad is now on his way back to controlling make anyintervention. Of course,the House of Commons the country. It is a tragic and ironic situation that the subsequently made doing so impossible. However, I man who had so much to do with the destruction of agreed that support should be provided for our allies his country should now be seen as part of the solution. on the front line, Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq, It now appears to be recognised even by us that he is because without supporting them the situation would there to stay, as expressed by the Foreign Secretary. get worse. The Government were not able to engage However,I immediately praise Her Majesty’sGovernment, militarily because of the decision of the House of who have so generously committed money to good Commons, but that did not mean that we have not humanitarian efforts to alleviate the plight of the engagedthroughmilitarytraining,materielandintelligence refugees. We can be truly proud of the generosity, operations which have merely made the situation worse. added to by private funding and care. I was very I recall having discussions in 2012-13 with some of my pleased personally to help in raising money for relief. Liberal Democrat colleagues and one of them saying However, we are where we are, and we have to face to me at the time, “John, you say it could be worse, but the clear reality. When a recent meeting took place in I don’t believe it could be any worse if we were to Astana, it was essentially led by Turkey, Iran and the intervene”. I replied by saying, “Not only could it be Russians, whose influence and role in Syria is now worse, it will be much worse because what we are decisive. I therefore ask the Minister if she is in a seeing is a descent into chaos that will not be restricted position to clarify what the next stage will be.I understand just to the Middle East”. that additional meetings in Geneva were planned, but We are already some years into a third global may have been postponed to cement a ceasefire. Do we conflict and we are merely contributing to the difficulties know if the anti-Assad opposition is to be involved? around it. It is not really a Sunni-Shia fight because This would be appear to be essential to make progress, there are Sunnis on both sides. We are contributing to and of course it would be under UN auspices. President something which, if we are not careful, will ensure that Trump has advocated, with the support of Saudi Christians who have been living in communities in the Arabia, the establishment of safe zones to provide country for two millennia will be driven out. some degree of security for refugees. Do we agree with My question for Her Majesty’s Government is in this? I understand that he has commissioned a report many ways a simple one. When will the Government to be ready by April. understand that the policy they have been following Of course there will simply be no progress without through several Governments has failed? Continuing the agreement of Russia and indeed President Assad with it is not going to help the situation either for the himself. The Foreign Secretary reiterated his view that people in the region or for this country because of President Assad ideally should go, but we now have to how it is perceived in the wider region and indeed by accept the new reality of his staying. Indeed, all I can some within our own communities. I have just a little say in retrospect is that all of us should pray and yearn hope, given the Statement made recently by Prime for this unspeakable horror and heart-breaking situation Minister Theresa May that it was not for the United to end. Kingdom to engage with the use of force in order to change the way other people run their countries, that 3.13 pm perhaps some reflection is beginning to take place in Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, I also thank the Her Majesty’s Government. noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for tabling this debate. She spoke about her concerns that arose both during and 3.17 pm subsequent to her visit to Syria. My own interest and concerns with Syria go back considerably longer,and long Lord Hylton (CB): I was an eyewitness in Jazira in before the war. When I went to see if there was at the north-east Syria in May 2015, Diyarbakir in Turkey in time any possibility of rapprochement between Israel November of that year, and in government-controlled GC 471 Syria [LORDS] Syria GC 472

[LORD HYLTON] One of the ways we are doing that is through the Syria in September 2016. I met the Jazira canton Business Taskforce, set up by David Cameron and administration, all the political parties, young people being not just continued but actively supported by the learning democratic theory and practice, as well as Prime Minister and her Government and chaired by refugees from ISIS. In Diyarbakir I saw military damage two Secretaries of State, my right honourable friends to the historic mosque at Sur and learned of the Liam Fox and Priti Patel. Here I declare my interests bulldozing of cemeteries where militants were buried. as a member of that task force and as the Prime Since then, MPs, mayors, lawyers and journalists have Minister’s trade envoy to Jordan. The task force is been arrested and tens of thousands of state employees charged to secure, dismissed. Last September, along with others including “an ambitious package of measures that would spur economic my noble friend Lady Cox, I visited the four main growth and enable … Syrian refugees across the region to work”, Syrian cities.I am amazed that Her Majesty’sGovernment and study. Those are the very people that are needed refuse to visit Jazira and Kobane. How can they to rebuild Syria, when this tragedy is one day—soon, understand the political and humanitarian situations I hope—over. without direct contact? In Turkey, they fail to address As well as the enormous sums of money being the causes of civil unrest and armed uprising, which donated by the Government—to date, £2.3 billion—and have lasted with only short intervals since 1984. Our the generosity of the British people, so rightly highlighted Government have asked for proportionate measures, by my noble friend Lord Risby, a great deal of time, and Turkey has replied with field guns and bulldozers, effort and innovative thinking is being put into practical besides aiding and abetting Islamist fighters in Syria. solutions to further these aims. If we support refugee Of course there have been atrocities on all sides, yet families in the region—who are the very people needed the western media still place all the blame on the to rebuild Syria, as I said—that will not only build Assadists. No one can deny that outside states have economic capacity in the countries that have so generously helped many foreign jihadis to enter Syria and provided offered them refuge, but reduce the risk of too many arms and explosives in large quantities. For these people gambling their lives in hazardous journeys to reasons, I welcome the ceasefire agreed by the Assad Europe and, if they make it, an uncertain future. Government with Russia, Turkey and Iran, although of course it leaves the war against ISIS quite unresolved. 3.23 pm I would urge the Minister when she comes to reply to say all she can on that subject. The Lord Bishop of Coventry: My Lords, I thank The conclusion I draw is that all have lost the war, the noble Baroness for securing this debate. My main though Assad and his allies have won most of the reason for speaking is to draw your Lordships’ attention battles. He has the support or the acquiescence of and, especially, Her Majesty’s Government, to a recent most Syrians. All the religious and ethnic minorities report by the World Council of Churches, The Protection prefer him to a possible extreme Islamic Government. Needs of Minorities in Syria and Iraq. It is a serious All are war-weary; they want to get on with their lives piece of field study that has gathered the first-hand and fear chaos or Islamist dictatorship. For those views of some 4,000 people, over 2,000 of them Syrians reasons I urge our Government to re-establish at least from minority communities: Christians, Yazidis, Druze, some level of diplomatic representation in Damascus. Turkmen and many others. I was in Baghdad and Irbil last month as part of a World Council of Churches delegation to test the findings of the report with 3.20 pm community leaders and members, as well as with Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con): My Lords, I also UNAMI and locally based NGOs, and confirm the add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for soundness of its recommendations. I have every reason giving us the opportunity to discuss the recent to believe that the report’s analysis of the Syrian developments in Syria. Whatever the Government’s situation is as credible as we found its Iraqi analysis to assessment of what is happening there, in a country of be. Therefore I ask the Minister that the Government shifting alliances and international power play there engage with this robust report. are no easy or simple answers. There is one constant, It was quite an uncomfortable visit for a British though: the misery being endured by the proud Syrian person to take part in, because of the great sense people. I will confine my remarks to the efforts being among the minority communities of our own culpability made to secure as meaningful and sustainable a future in the chaos in Iraq. I can well imagine the strength of as possible for those dispossessed by this awful tragedy. feeling that was expressed in the noble Baroness’s visit Just over a year ago, the world met here in London to Syria. The research showed that despite the for the second Syria donor conference, where the huge manipulation of sectarian tension in Syria by government generosity both in hard currency and in spirit towards and armed opposition, there still remains greater those fleeing terror was enormously welcome and confidence among minority communities—including much needed. One of the key objectives of our even Christians—in Syria than in Iraq that they have a Government, whose commitment to this appalling future in their land, although that confidence is situation is something of which we should all be diminishing. The report argues that protecting the proud, is that alongside aid and refuge we need to put minority communities and preserving their place in in place practical solutions that give Syrian refugees Syrian society needs to be mainlined into the humanitarian and their families not just hope, but a sense of purpose response. This requires a differentiated approach to and a chance to rebuild their shattered lives, and the particular security, economic and social needs of which supports the countries in the region to which diverse communities, based on accurate assessment they have fled. tools that capture distinctive ethno-religious vulnerabilities. GC 473 Syria [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Syria GC 474

Those needs are large and complex; critical among The United States has taken 19,336 Syrian refugees them is housing. It is not only the horrific damage to over the last three years: 108 Christian Syrians and the property that is the problem but the loss of property, 46 Yazidis. That is 0.55% Christians and 0.24% Yazidis. either through being forced into selling at low prices Her Majesty’s Government rely on the Office of the by stronger communities or by confiscation by malign United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to activities. Sensitive processes of property reallocation assess refugees against the vulnerability criteria. However, will need to be found. That is only one example of the at the end of last year,DfID produced its own assessment restoration of the diversity of Syrian society that will of the effectiveness of that UN agency. The categories be needed in the years ahead—a task too great for its are very good, good, adequate and weak. DfID rated own resources to bear. Will the Minister therefore it as good on matching the UK priorities index, but confirm that Her Majesty’s Government are committed only adequate on the organisational strengths. Will to the long-term pursuance of a just peace for all the Minister at the very least confirm that this agency Syria’s people, forging an international coalition of has tracked the religious minorities in the region so we reconstruction—physical and psychosocial—to work know where they are, and will she please invite the new with whatever political settlement emerges to ensure a commissioner for this office to come to the United safe Syria for all? Kingdom Parliament to explain the disparity within these statistics? 3.26 pm Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, whatever the 3.29 pm position of Her Majesty’sGovernment vis-à-vis President Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords,representatives Assad, I hope it is uncontentious to say that a future of the international charity Aid to the Church in for Syria that protects and respects religious minorities Need, of which I am a trustee, have just been in is essential. This should be part of Her Majesty’s Aleppo. They learned that the Christian community Government’s strategy overall, and of our refugee there has fallen from around 250,000 to barely 30,000, policy in particular. and that in Syria as a whole from around 1.8 million In 2010, the population of Syria was 21 million. before the war to an estimated 300,000 now. As my According to the US State Department’s international noble friend Lady Cox said in her eloquent and compelling religious freedom report, Sunnis made up 74% of the speech, ISIS has waged a bestial campaign of genocide population, other Muslim groups 13%, the Druze 3%, against Christians and other minorities for nearly and various Christian groups constitute the remaining three years. The terror group has carried out its slogan: 10%, although there were estimates even at that time “We will break your crosses and enslave your women”. that due to migration it may have dropped to 8%. As His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales warned in There were also around 100,000 Yazidis and a small his Christmas broadcast, such ancient communities population of Jews. Five years later, in 2015, the same face total annihilation. I ask the Minister: how can we source reported there are now just under 18 million make the protection of minorities and the re-creation people in Syria; 74% of the population remains Sunni of the plural, diverse communities that existed in Muslim, the other Muslim groups still amount to places such as Aleppo in Syria and Mosul in Iraq 13%, and the Druze are still there at 3%. However, before these events a greater priority? reports of Christians fleeing the country as a result of In April 2016, by 278 votes to zero, the House of the civil war suggest that the Christian population is Commons officially designated ISIS as responsible for considerably lower than 10%. There is no reliable genocide against various religious minorities. I press information to confirm the continued residency or the the Minister to say what specific actions arose from current size of the Jewish population. Media reports that resolution of Parliament to help those who are suggest that the figure for Yazidis is higher, as many cruelly suffering. In particular, on an issue that was Yazidis from Iraq have fled into Syria. raised with the noble Baroness yesterdayduring Questions, There is therefore a disproportionate decline among is the United Kingdom willing to encourage the chief Christians in the population of Syria. Accordingly, prosecutor of the International Criminal Court to among Syrians outside of the country there will be a investigate fighters not currently being prosecuted from proportionate increase in the number of Christians. signatory nations to the treaty of Rome? Has there That is not surprising, as they have no regional ally. been any progress concerning the role that the Iraq Sunnis have the support of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, Government might play in pursuing an investigative and Shias the support of Iran. In addition, the attacks mechanism for crimes committed by or against their on Yazidis, Christians and Mandaeans by Daesh have people in Syria? Will the Minister also tell us what been of particular ferocity, and there is a growing progress has been made in severing ISIS supply lines intolerance in the local population. This is why it was to Raqqa and in securing its liberation? not religious preference but a statement of particular My first visit to Syria was in 1980, as a young vulnerability when the 2015 Conservative manifesto Member of the House of Commons. Our ambassador pledged to defend freedom of religion or belief for all was Patrick, now the noble Lord, Lord Wright, and but made a specific commitment to support persecuted we met the previous President Assad. If we can have a Christians in the Middle East. diplomatic presence in Pyongyang and Sudan, the The United Kingdom statistics on the Syrian leader of which has been indicted for genocide by the vulnerable person resettlement scheme state that between International Criminal Court, why, as my noble friend September 2015 and September 2016 we have taken Lord Hylton asked, do we not have a senior diplomatic 64 Christian Syrians out of a total of 4,175, or 1.5%. presence in Damascus? Why is that still the case, in the GC 475 Syria [LORDS] Syria GC 476

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] 3.36 pm light of the changed policy position of Her Majesty’s Government following the evidence that the Foreign The Earl of Oxford and Asquith (LD): My Lords, I Secretary gave last week, referred to by the noble welcome the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Lord, Lord Risby? Prioritising persecuted religious Cox, on the facile narrative that underlies much of the minorities such as Christians and Yazidis, and upholding western media reporting. As she has noted, in Syria, our highest ideals in offering refuge to genocide we have for several years collectively promoted a survivors—as I proposed in an all-party amendment demonised portrayal of one side and a highly romanticised in your Lordships’ House exactly a year ago—will version of its opponents. That leads to my general serve justice and ensure that the perpetrators of these theme—that of legitimacy. crimes face their Nuremberg moment. For several years, the British and the United States political leaderships have maintained that this war is 3.32 pm largely a matter of a dictator killing his people. It is Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, I pay tribute to the the accepted line whereby western Governments have noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and support her views. I sought to promote the policy of regime change to start by asking my noble friend: when will Her Majesty’s their public. By contrast, what has most impressed me Government recognise the reality of the situation after on my visits to Syria recently is the overwhelming and six years of war? Assad, his Government and his objective evidence of deliberate programmes of assault people dominate all the cities, towns and most of the by ISIL or Daesh, by al-Nusra, as it was, and by other, countryside. They are, of course, assisted by their largely external, forces.It is an assault aimed at dismantling long-term ally, Russia, and by Iran and Hezbollah, the Syrian state, and the very concepts of Syrian because they are Shia Muslims. Our Government have society, identity and culture. This is why it is so crucial failed from the start to understand and recognise that to focus on getting hold of genuine facts, evidence and this was, frankly, no more than the fourth Shia-Sunni contributions from Syrian citizens and representatives war in that troubled country. of civil society.They know,none better,what destruction has been inflicted by the militants on their educational On top of this is the policy of the Arab spring, infrastructure, for example, deliberately to ensure that which we all know and recognise. In my judgment, the ignorance and illiteracy prevails in what is being called failure of that policy in Libya, Egypt, the Maldives a lost generation of students. They know and have and now Syria shows that we should never have interfered seen what is being done to their women, who are in the first place. Do Her Majesty’sGovernment recognise carted around the streets of Aleppo in cages for public that France, our closest ally on so many issues, now humiliation—andworse—bythegroupswecallmoderates. has an embassy in Damascus? The information I have They know that those moderates seldom control or is that it is not just one man and a dog but a full influence an area or constituency larger than the extent technical support team. Is it ready for the rebuilding of of this debating Chamber, whatever they may claim in Syria? From what I can see, we appear to be sitting on Geneva as they negotiate with our diplomats. our hands, thinking of war crimes and worrying about what our allies in the Arab world would think of us. This assault on the structures of the state is, for Are we going to go back to Damascus? If not, the Syria, an existential war for its identity. The British whole of the United Kingdom’s Brexit approach in Government have repeatedly said that Assad can have the Arab world will be somewhat undermined. If our no legitimacy among his own people. That is a judgment policy is to deal with Daesh—my colleague on the that I believe history will show to be suspect and one other Benches clearly raised this issue—surely we have which will in due course be put to the test, if there are to have the Syrian armed forces alongside, at least elections. I have seen little evidence of a craven personal working or communicating with us. Are we once again loyalty to Assad in Syria, but there can be no doubt waiting for somebody to say something? Are we waiting that where the Syrian Government and army have for President Trump to give his views on what we established enduring control, there is order, health should do? Surely we have enough experience of the provision, schooling and none of the takfiri horrors Arab world to decide for ourselves. that the armed militants impose. These are public We all know that peace is coming. We all know goods that are welcomed with respect and command Assad is staying and, yes, we all want to see elections. large support. Above all, we also want to see Syria rebuilt again. It is often said that Assad would not survive were it Frankly, Her Majesty’s Government should take the not for Russia, Iran or Hezbollah. I myself have seen initiative and look for the equivalent of the Marshall no evidence that either Russia or Iran has an unshakeable, plan, as in Europe after the Second World War. That personal loyalty to President Assad. They support the way, we can bring back these poor refugees from the existence of a coherent Syrian state. If another figure, Middle East who are sitting in the cold and get them hypothetically, were to replace Bashar al-Assad, Russia out of the camps and back into their own country. If and Iran would undoubtedly continue to uphold the we do not, Syria will be a living hell, just like Libya is state. But what we have really been implying all along today. Surely, we should let the Syrians themselves is that we want not simply Assad’s departure but some settle their own structure and we in the West should kind of popular movement—fomenting a resistance to stop interfering, but we should give some generous aid illegitimacy that we endorse—that will effect regime in rebuilding and have that presence in Damascus—on change. This is not going to happen. It is an illusion the ground—so that at last, for once, our English and we should not continue to entertain. I think of Ariel United Kingdom firms will also benefit from any Sharon’s warning to President Bush after the last Iraq Marshall plan equivalent. war that if Bush intended to go about the same GC 477 Syria [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Syria GC 478 dismantling of Syria as he had effected in Iraq, he 3.44 pm would create an explosion throughout the Middle Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, civil wars East. are dreadful. We lost 800,000 in the English Civil War. I have gone on too long already. We need to engage To put that in context, that would be 9.1 million in a thorough, probably painful reappraisal of what people killed if we had a civil war like that today. UK the structures of Syrian statehood should be, which policy has prolonged the Syrian war. It has failed. It we will support, and the conditions of their legitimacy needs a rethink. Assad is loathsome, yes, but he is a that we can recognise. fact of life on the ground. The other players are just as bad. There are no good guys in this sort of situation. 3.40 pm At least Assad’s regime was secular. Our failure has Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con): I thank allowed the Russians to become the powerbrokers in the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, most warmly for giving the region. We absolutely must change our policy or us a chance to mourn for Syria. This war will end, yet I the war will go on and people will die. suggest the conflict will remain. As the right reverend Prelate said, this is a very difficult war. It is very 3.44 pm unlikely that, when the bombs stop, the people’s minds will change immediately and become peaceful towards Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I will be each other. We will have a society where the torturers brief, as I want to leave as much time as possible for and the tortured perhaps live side by side. Physical the Minister to respond—and obviously in three minutes reconstruction begins immediately. That is the easy we have time to ask only a few questions. I thank the bit. But the conflict remaining is the thing we should noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for initiating this debate. It think about. is our responsibility to try to create the conditions for the people of Syria to decide their own future. Every I turn to Mr Attlee’s noble words in the preamble to act of genocide or crime against humanity needs to be UNESCO’s constitution, and remind colleagues that, investigated and the people responsible to be held to “since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men account for their actions. Impunity must be challenged; that the defences of peace must be constructed”. we cannot have a situation where years and years of I offer a model that has been proved to work. Next crimes against humanity are ignored. I accept that there door to Syria, not far away in Baghdad in the middle are two sides to this equation but, as we have heard in of the war in 2004, the AMAR Foundation, which I the debate, the sides are very complex—it is not just have the honour to chair, began to work on health for the people of Syria who are involved in this crime. all. Why? Because this is the opposite of the inequality I have heard coverage on BBC Persian news and in of men and races in ISIL’s doctrine. We go for the the Afghan media about Iran coercing Afghan refugees common welfare of mankind here today. Peace in to fight on behalf of—and in favour of—the Assad the minds of men can be best reflected by helping the regime in Syria. Many are young children; the youngest tortured person in physical and mental pain. I have heard about was 16. The Iranians promise these We began immediately in July 2004 in Al-Suwaib, Afghan refugees citizenship and money and then send where there had been no health anywhere ever. It was them to fight in Syria. Can the Minister tell us whether a completely confused society—violent, bullying, war, these claims have been investigated by the British nothing at all. By February 2005 we had 12,000 patients. Government? We moved on to the next centre, keeping that one I am also very aware of the need for humanitarian going. By 2010 we had 30,000 patients. The second support, and I have supported the Government’s actions was Al-Jahadi. In June 2005 we had another 30,000 in the region. I particularly want to hear from the patients. They were all new builds—25 across the Minister about what more we can do to support the whole of Baghdad, with 500,000 medical consultations host nations and to save their economies and societies every year by 2010. We worked closely with and were from collapse from the weight of refugees currently in financially supported by the 1st Cavalry Division, those countries. One obvious matter on which we need General Chiarelli, General Joe Anderson, General to hear the Government’s assessment is the progress of Odierno, General Mattis and General Petraeus. There talks and the parties being brought together—we know was no interference, just support and understanding. that there can be no settlement without the Russians The US military, like the British military, understands and the Iranians, but the Saudis need to be involved as that at the end of the story it is hearts and minds, not well. We know that this conflict has wider implications. bullets and bombs. However, at the end of the day, we cannot allow this The creation of a peaceful and productive society situation where the crimes that have been described in has resulted in this. Compare Baghdad with Mosul this debate go on without action—we cannot allow and tell me that all these revolutions in Baghdad are impunity to be the watchword for the future in the just not happening. All those medical centres are still Middle East. I hope that the Minister can assure us working. Indeed, the AMAR Foundation now has 1 that work will continue to collect and retain evidence million patients over the whole of society. On top of so that we can ensure that justice will be done in the that, you add all sorts of other things as you build, end. train and replicate. You add culture, the education of humanity, the wide diffusion of culture, chess, music, dancing and writing. You train, teach and enhance. I 3.47 pm tell noble Lords that by building on the base of terror The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and destruction, you can create peace, love, harmony, Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My Lords, smiles and joy. I recommend this model. I congratulate noble Baroness, Lady Cox, on securing GC 479 Syria [LORDS] Syria GC 480

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] rather we have expressed our view that he has failed to this debate. Working for a solution to the crisis in protect his people. He has military backing from Russia Syria remains a top priority for the Government. We and Iran, and without it he would be nowhere. Moreover, recognise the realities of the situation across the whole he does not care for his people as a leader should. That of the Middle East and the implications of the is our view and it is what we have always said. Any displacement of so many millions of people, as well as process to rebuild the country must be Syrian-led. I the generosity of counties such as Lebanon and others also take very much to heart the words of my noble which have hosted those forced out of their own friend Lady Nicholson. She said that even after a country. The conflict has now lasted nearly six years treaty has been signed, conflict remains afterwards, so and caused appalling human suffering, as noble Lords it is about rebuilding. I agree with her that conflict have graphically set out today: over 400,000 people remaining is what we should be thinking about today. have been killed, half of the country’spre-war population There can be no military solution to the conflict; you has been displaced and millions of Syrians are in need can win a war, but you do not win a peace. of urgent humanitarian help. Recent developments have confirmed our assessment The military offensive against eastern Aleppo before that the only way to bring back stability to Syria and Christmas was one of the worst episodes of this thereby address the terror threat which is here and terrible conflict. For over five months, more than a present with us today in the UK, and to allow the quarter of a million people were besieged and cut off millions of refugees to return home, is a political from food and medical supplies as the Assad regime settlement which ends the civil war so that we can then and its Russian and Iranian backers blocked access to start to rebuild. As the Foreign Secretary has consistently humanitarian convoys. I was asked about Iran and the said, it is our view that there can be no sustainable way that it recruits people to fight in Syria. I will peace in Syria while Assad remains in power. Strange certainly follow that up—I had not seen that particular things have been said in the debate about the Foreign newspaper report, but I will make inquiries. In Aleppo, Secretary saying that Assad must stay. No, he has not. every hospital in the eastern part of the city was put He has reaffirmed our belief that Assad cannot lead out of action by air and artillery strikes—it is only the the country but that it is for the people of Syria to Assad regime and its backers that have access to air decide. That has underlined all our work throughout and artillery strikes. Hundreds of civilians were killed. the peace negotiations. Those negotiations would include, As the UN has shown, in October last year, there were in our view, the right of the 11 million people who 400 casualties in that one month alone. have been displaced as a result of conflict to take part That is across the range; I am not picking out in free and fair elections. It may be some way off, but particular groups, rather I am adding to the descriptions let us hope that we can all help Syria to reach that given by noble Lords about the impact of what happened. point. Ultimately, tens of thousands of people were forced to My noble friend Lady Berridge raised in particular leave the city. All this was justified by the regime and the question of displaced Christians and minorities. its backers in the name of fighting terrorism. We reject We are not in a position to track exactly how many that explanation, and indeed even Russia’s own figures and from which minority or faith have been moved show that terrorists accounted for only a tiny fraction and to where, mostly of course because as people have of Aleppo’s population. The real targets were the travelled and their groups have fragmented, no records moderateoppositionforces.Farfromcombatingterrorism, have been kept either in the refugee camps or indeed the actions of the regime, Russia and Iran have served where they have now settled in western Europe and only to fuel it and worsen the suffering of the Syrian beyond. As some noble Lords have reminded me on people. previous occasions, some people are scared to reveal In reality, the regime and its backers are responsible their ethnicity and their minority status. We should for the vast majority of deaths and civilian suffering in think of that very carefully indeed when we think Syria. I am not going to go into the detail of what about rebuilding. I understand why my noble friend happened in the prison highlighted in the Amnesty raises these points. It is right for noble Lords to ask report, but any form of torture is wrong. Tens of about Syria surviving as an entire country. If Syria is thousands of people disappeared from their families to survive as an entire country, not with a little bit and the streets into Assad’s clutches, and goodness picked off by Assad because he likes that bit and does knows what happened to them. The fact is that the not like the rest but as a country in which Syrians are UN and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical able to determine their own future, it needs to continue Weapons have confirmed that the Assad regime has to adhere to its history of respecting different ethnicities used chemical weapons. I understand that Daesh may and different religions. Over the last few months, it has have done so as well, but it is wrong for anyone to been my privilege to meet senior faith leaders who use them. represent a wide range of orthodox Christian faiths. Even after the fall of eastern Aleppo, some 700,000 They are very brave people. Having come here to give people remain in besieged areas across the whole of their views, they go back to Syria to tend to their Syria, the vast majority of them trapped by pro-regime flocks. forces. The UK’s policy has always been to support a At the UN Security Council, we have consistently sustainable, Syrian-led political settlement to the conflict advocated for action to bring about an immediate while doing everything we can to help and protect ceasefire and enable humanitarian access for all those civilians in the country. We are not and never have in need in Syria. At the Human Rights Council, the dictated to the Syrian people what they should decide UK has led efforts to monitor human rights violations as to the outcome and what should happen to Assad, and abuses committed in Syria and to call for GC 481 Syria [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Sudan GC 482 accountability for those responsible. My Whip is very the media, politics and all other aspects of life. A visit kindly saying that I have only two minutes left. I think to the Republic of Sudan completely changes the that I have a little more, but not much more. As she is perception held by many in Europe and other western my mentor, I normally obey her immediately. countries. I was particularly impressed by the large In October we proposed, and secured the adoption female representation in the parliament and the education of, a Human Rights Council resolution which mandated from diverse cultures. The role of the arts and music in the UN commission of inquiry to investigate and Sudan’s culture shows a moderate face of contemporary report on violations and abuses during the siege and Islamic society that is unique to Sudan. offensive against eastern Aleppo. Wecontinue to support However, Sudan has long been beset by conflict. the important work of the UN commission of inquiry. Two rounds of the north-south civil war cost the lives Humanitarian support was raised by many noble of 1.5 million people, while the continuing conflict in Lords. I say merely that it is vital that we all support the western region of Darfur has driven 2 million that. I was very interested in what my noble friend people from their homes and killed more than 200,000. Lady Morris said about the Business Task Force. That Sudan is taking significant steps to improve its relations is a very practical way forward. with the breakaway state of South Sudan. The presidents As regards recent progress, it was right for noble of both countries are talking to each other more often. Lords to concentrate their minds on Astana and the Both countries are co-operating with African Union progress that has been made there with the ceasefire. efforts to resolve the outstanding disputes between The ceasefire is not a political solution. It is valuable them. The Government of Sudan are engaged in a in itself. It would have been so much more valuable if, process of national dialogue with more than 100 political as a result, Assad had allowed humanitarian access, parties and rebel groups and are committed to developing but still people are being starved. Those taking part in understanding and consensus among all the parties on the Astana process recognise that the real progress is national issues. We learned that armed confrontation to be made by the Geneva talks. I welcome their between the rebels and government forces has reduced recognition of that. The UN special envoy, Staffan de significantly. Mistura, has announced that he plans to reconvene African Union-United Nations Mission in Darfur talks between the Syrian parties in Geneva this month. representatives in Al-Fasher were not able to verify We fully support those efforts. any aerial bombardments by the Sudanese air force I was also asked whether we should have an embassy taking place in the six months prior to our visit to in Damascus. I have answered that question in some Darfur. That does not mean that they did not take detail on the Floor of the House. The simple answer is place, but UNAMID could not confirm any. In an that we have no reason to trust Assad. To establish answer to a specific question about getting access to such an embassy would be a sign that we felt that he reports of aerial bombings, the UNAMID representative was the way forward. Our view is that he is not and said after a careful calculation that approximately that we must allow the Syrian people to make that 2% of the time, access is denied by government forces. decision. What decision the Syrians reach, we should Decades of civil war have resulted in the breakaway then follow. It is as wrong to dictate to the Syrian of South Sudan into a separate country and the loss of people that they must keep Assad as it would be to 75% of oil revenue to Sudan. Oil was the main source dictate to them that they should get rid of him. We of income for the country. Despite huge potential in should listen to the people. We are a democracy. Let the exploration and production of oil, gas and minerals them be one. including copper, silver and gold, the people of Sudan have suffered enormously under sanctions imposed by 3.58 pm the United States which effectively barred Sudan from carrying out any trade with most European countries. Sitting suspended. The effects of those sanctions are visible in health, education and many other sectors. Sudan On the question of extremists and the terrorist Question threat, one of the challenges Sudan currently faces is how to interrupt the networks and cells of groups 4 pm which operate across the region and prevent them Asked by Lord Hussain using the country as a transit area or destination for their operations. The Horn of Africa is one of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their most unstable regions in the world because of war and assessment of the situation in Sudan in the light of civil conflict. Somalia suffered from a long and devastating the threat posed by Islamic extremists in the civil war that left the country very underdeveloped. surrounding countries. Ethiopia and Eritrea fought a bitter war over their border which resulted in tens of thousands of casualties Lord Hussain (LD): My Lords, I have had the on both sides and the situation yet to be resolved. opportunity of visiting Sudan and South Sudan a South Sudan, the world’s youngest country, is in a real couple of times in the last few years. During my visits crisis with a bloody ethnic conflict still going on. to Khartoum, Darfur, Merowe, Juba and Rumbek, I A number of terrorist groups are quite visible and had an insight into Sudan’s environment and culture. active in the countries around Sudan. To the west, It is a vibrant, open culture with males and females Boko Haram’s activities are increasing in Nigeria and working side by side in schools, colleges, universities, other west African countries; Daesh has a highly GC 483 Sudan [LORDS] Sudan GC 484

[LORD HUSSAIN] Under-Secretary Sir Simon McDonald and DfID visible presence in Libya; al-Qaeda is active in the Permanent Secretary Sir Mark Lowcock. I was pleased Maghreb region, and Daesh and other extremists operate to hear Sir Simon say: in the Sinai peninsula in Egypt. The Somali Harakat “Relations between the peoples of Sudan and the UK are al-Shabaab al-Mujahideen movement is roaming the deep and historic, and our meetings over the last two days Horn of Africa, although Kenya and Uganda witnessed reflected that breadth. In addition to Sudan-UK bilateral interests, the deadliest attacks by al-Shabaab several years ago. we also discussed human rights, conflict, migration, humanitarian Conflicts and political instability produce an atmosphere and development assistance, economic matters, and the situation in the region. I am confident that our bilateral relations have a conducive to the growth of extremism, but factors positive future”. such as underdevelopment, lack of access to education On that note, I have two questions for the Minister. and employment, and marginalisation can all fuel the First, in the light of the positive engagement by the tendency towards violent extremism. Government of Sudan with regional countries and the Sudan has been the victim of terrorist attacks in the USA in relation to deradicalisation and rehabilitation past. An extremist group attacked and killed two US of extremists, will our Government use their good embassy staff in Khartoum in January 2008, and relations with the new American Administration to several Sudanese police officers were killed in a raid lift permanently the remaining sanctions imposed on on a terrorist training camp in eastern Sudan in December Sudan? Secondly, what are the Government doing to 2012. Sudan was one of the initiators and founders of establish stronger economic ties with Sudan? a very important regional structure comprised of security agencies on the continent known as the Committee of 4.09 pm Intelligence and Security Services of Africa. Among other things, CISSA is tasked with strengthening The Earl of Sandwich (CB): I will be the first to co-operation in countering terrorism and extremism extend thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Hussain. I also by providing information and analyses on the security declare an interest as a long-standing member of the threats posed by extremist groups and suggesting possible All-Party Group for Sudan and South Sudan. I have courses of action. come to respect the Sudanese people over many years, since working with NGOs back in the 1970s, mainly Since 2000, Sudan has engaged in close co-operation visiting refugee camps and health projects. I have also with the United States in countering terrorism. This been on formal parliamentary visits. co-operation has been acknowledged and appreciated by the US itself in an annual report issued by the Sadly, the country has been torn into pieces by Department of State on international efforts to counter three civil wars for most of its independent life. As a terrorist activity. Sudan has constantly featured in group, we get regular information from intrepid travellers, these reports as working closely with the United States including our own noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and in combating terror. More recently, the executive order many other contacts in Sudan, on the tragic effects of issued on 13 January by the then President Barack aerial bombing and attacks on civilians. Weare currently Obama, in which he announced the easing of US preparing a report on the UK’s relations with Sudan, economic sanctions on Sudan, referred to the actions and I propose to touch on one aspect of this relationship. taken by the Government of Sudan in addressing Although I am a critic of some of the policies of regional conflicts and jointly countering the threat of the Government of Sudan—the GOS—I am also terrorism as one of the main factors behind the decision. encouraged that the GOS can take criticism, and on Sudan’s experience in combating religious radicalisation occasion even listen to it. We should not judge other through rehabilitating and reintegrating extremists into nations too much, because they too have to follow the mainstream has attracted much attention as being their own traditions. I recognise that Sudan has to effective in addressing some of these issues. defend itself from enemies, but at the same time there are international rules prohibiting human rights abuses Christopher Shays, a former Member of Congress and violence against people who correctly choose to who chaired the National Security Committee of the follow those rules. Clergy, students, journalists, activists Government Oversight Committee, and Richard Swett, and individuals who speak out are always at risk of who is also a former Member of Congress and former imprisonment and even torture. US ambassador, attested to this fact in their article “Enough already on Sudan sanctions”, published on I have long worked with NGOs, and I feel it almost The Hill website on 23 January 2017. They stated: personally when Sudanese or any other NGOs are persecuted. They are part of the fabric of civil society, “Sudan has been among the most stable and consistent partners and to me they belong to the future of any nation, of the U.S. intelligence community in the war against terror in this century as the State Department has annually reported”. working to promote the rights of women, the role of students and improved conditions for the poor and the One of the factors Sudan counts on in its counter- oppressed. Every religion understands this as charitable radicalisation efforts and in fighting extremism is to work, and in Sudan there are many voluntary agencies invoke the Sufi background from which Islam in Sudan and faith organisations. derives its moderation and tolerance. To their credit, in the last three years the GOS have I am glad that in recent months the British Government made a new attempt—for the benefit of the outside have taken some positive steps towards a policy of world as much as that of Sudan—to set up a national engagement with the Government of Sudan. We have dialogue, theoretically to draw in the many groups seen senior-level exchange visits, most recently by the that might be termed the opposition. Even four Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department neighbouring heads of state, with varying experiences for International Development led by FCO Permanent of democracy, were invited to a recent conference. GC 485 Sudan [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Sudan GC 486

But the dialogue has consistently failed to attract key In 2011, the new coalition Government chose to opposition parties such as the National Umma Party, unpick one of the few foreign policy successes of the which, along with the international community, insists Blair years—the containment of the Gaddafi Government that any dialogue must depend on a peace settlement in Libya, the abandonment of their nuclear programme in Darfur and the Two States. and Tripoli’s wholehearted co-operation on counter- The Government of Sudan’s disregard for the work terrorism. Her Majesty’s Government chose to wage of the United Nations over many years is astonishing— war against the Libyan Government in support of witness the most recent report from the UN panel of several anti-government Islamist militias with al-Qaeda experts, which conducted 10 missions but was unable affiliations. to obtain visas to enter Sudan. The panel complained In an article in the Guardian, I warned at the time about aerial bombardment in Jebel Marra, which is that it was a dangerous assumption to believe that the primarily against the Abdul Wahid branch of the Libyan rebels were all Facebook idealists. In their SLA, but it was unable to investigate allegations of more candid moments, Western political and military crimes against civilians and displaced persons. leaders admitted at the time that they knew next to Washington may be softening its approach to Sudan, nothing about the gunmen for whom NATO was but it still maintains economic sanctions and insists on acting as a de facto air force and whom they were progress with peace negotiations. The EU takes a militarily equipping. similar stand, and the UK can hardly do less. In their As clearly documented in Paul Moorcraft’s 2015 own strategic dialogue with the GOS, we all expect study, The Jihadist Threat, Her Majesty’s Government’s Her Majesty’s Government to ensure that standards Libya policy demonstrated another clear contradiction. of human rights are maintained, and the views of civil The United Kingdom has some of the most draconian society are fully taken into account. I am sure we will anti-terrorist legislation in the world. While it is illegal hear about that in the reply to the debate. for a young Briton of Pakistani descent to as much as The Khartoum process, on which we intend to look at a jihadist website in his bedroom, the British report fully in two weeks’ time, is a labyrinthine EU authorities turned a blind eye to the hundreds of exercise, which the Brexiting UK may ultimately prefer young Britons of Libyan descent travelling from Britain to avoid. Intended to rein in so-called terrorism and to undergo jihadist military training and political migration towards the Mediterranean, it may have the indoctrination in training camps in Libya, Egypt and unexpected consequence that our country will be more eastern Tunisia that were no different from those in closely identified with police, border guards and soldiers Afghanistan. Many of those British citizens then went than with the Sudanese people, or the migrants. to fight with al-Qaeda-aligned militias against Gaddafi forces. The Daily Mail ran an article with the headline: 4.13 pm “Why do so many Libyan rebels seen on TV speak with British accents?”. Lord Ahmed (Non-Afl): My Lords, I thank the When I asked in a Written Question in mid-2015 noble Lord, Lord Hussain, for securing this timely whether Her Majesty’s Government were aware of any debate. Undoubtedly some noble Lords will address British Libyans who took part in overthrowing Colonel the threats posed by Islamic militants in the countries Gaddafi, and whether any of them had since returned that surround Sudan. Its physical location places it at to the United Kingdom, the Government stated that, the heart of Africa. “we do not hold any information on this matter”. The importance of an ally such as Sudan in the war The reality is that British foreign policy continues on terrorism has always been clear. It was Sudan that to create and enable not just our enemies but extremist identified, arrested and extradited Ilich Ramírez forces that Governments such as that of Sudan will Sánchez—Carlos the Jackal—to France in 1994. It is have to confront. also a matter of record that Sudan offered to arrest and extradite Osama bin Laden to Washington—an offer refused by the Clinton Administration, with Baroness Goldie (Con): Can the noble Lord move disastrous consequences. Sudan has signed and enforced on so that I can answer the Question? all relevant international anti-terrorist protocols. Sudan has co-operated on counterterrorism issues for two decades. As early as November 2001, US Deputy Lord Ahmed: We must learn with regard to British Secretary of State Richard Armitage stated that Sudanese foreign policy toward Syria. co-operation on counterterrorism was “really terrific”. Sudan’s importance in the war against terrorism has 4.18 pm intensified in the past few years. In 2012, Jean-Claude Lord Sheikh (Con): My Lords, Sudan lies at the Cousseran, the former head of the French equivalent heart of a troubled region. A number of terrorist of MI6, said: groups are visible and active in the region, including “Africa will be our neighbourhood Afghanistan”. Daesh, Boko Haram, al-Shabaab and al-Qaeda. It is It is right that we look at the threat posed to Sudan of course imperative that we do all we can to support by extremists in the surrounding countries, but we the Sudanese in this respect. However, we must also must also address the elephant in the room. We must build our relationship with Sudan more widely. Issues look at the role played by British foreign policy in such as poverty, lack of education, lack of employment enabling the terrorist threat faced by Sudan and other opportunities and wider community underdevelopment African countries. British foreign policy in this respect can fuel the marginalisation and frustration of young has been nothing short of disastrous. people, which can lead to the formation of extremist GC 487 Sudan [LORDS] Sudan GC 488

[LORD SHEIKH] the International Criminal Court has indicted Field ideology. It is therefore only right that we seek to help Marshal Bashir on charges of genocide, war crimes Sudan improve its stability and provide opportunities and crimes against humanity. It is a scandal that he for its people. can travel with impunity and without fear of arrest to Last year, I led a delegation from your Lordships’ face those charges. House to Sudan. Following our visit, we have established When I first visited South Sudan 20 years ago the APPG for Sudan, and I am the co-chairman of the during the civil war, I saw schools, clinics, homes and group. The APPG has met Tobias Ellwood and formed churches that the regime had bombed, where between an excellent connection with the FCO and our ambassador 1.5 million and 2 million people perished. That is why in Sudan. As someone who regularly promotes bilateral the country was torn in two. Later I travelled to Geneina trade, I believe that much can be gained by both sides in Darfur, where I saw a fraction of the 2 million who from increasing trade links with Sudan. I am pleased have been displaced and met the loved ones of some of that a trade mission from the Middle East Association the 200,000, mainly Muslim, people murdered. This is visited Sudan in December, and that a further mission, not history: last year there were more than 100,000 organised with the co-operation of our ambassador to newly displaced people in Darfur and 3.2 million Sudan, is scheduled for April. However,our Government long-term displaced nationwide. Meanwhile, the aerial should now send a trade mission to Sudan. There is bombardment continues in South Kordofan and Blue also a keen interest in Sudan in establishing educational Nile,and humanitarian access is still denied. Furthermore, links between academic institutions. Following our I have sent the Minister Amnesty International’s report delegation, Sudanese links are already being established on the alleged use of chemical weapons in Darfur. I with two major universities in England. hope that the noble Baroness will address both issues I welcome the fact that the United States has now in her response. agreed to lift the economic sanctions previously applied Consider also the life sentence and other lengthy to Sudan. This is due to Sudan’s progress in improving sentences given to three Christians only last month. humanitarian access, ceasing hostilities and enhancing Will the Minister tell us what we are doing about this co-operation on counter-terrorism. On that note, we travesty of justice? What have the Government of must bear in mind the steps that Sudan has taken, and Sudan done to implement the recommendations in the continues to take, towards combating the extremist 2016 universal periodic review? What have we done to threat. Sudan has developed an effective re-education urge the Government of Sudan to implement the and rehabilitation programme to reintegrate former religious freedom protections codified in their interim extremists into mainstream society. national constitution, especially in the light of the We should also acknowledge some of the good 2016 USCIRF report listing Sudan as a “country of work already taking place between the United Kingdom particular concern” for engaging in systematic and and Sudan. We are the second-largest humanitarian egregious violations of freedom of religion or belief? donor to that country. We support health and medical In this context, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, I programmes, many of which help children and displaced am appalled. However, according to the noble Lord, persons. Our APPG is sending a delegation of women Lord Price, in answer to a Written Question from me parliamentarians to Sudan to look at issues relating to earlier this week, the health of women in Sudan. “the UK will consider opportunities to promote trade with Sudan”. Sudan still faces a number of challenges to do with He should recall Churchill’s warning that it is dangerous extremism and other matters. We must, however, to feed crocodiles if you hope that they will eat you acknowledge the progress already made and help Sudan last. advance further. Adopting a hostile and isolationist policy towards Sudan will only make the country There are two faces of the Government of Sudan. more vulnerable, threatening its people and the wider They claim to have disavowed the worst forms of region. We should engage with Sudan and establish extremist ideology but, as academician Suliman Baldo greater links, to the benefit of both countries and to said, the Sudanese Government have become adept at help establish peace and stability in the region. Finally, engaging in intelligence sharing with important I ask the Minister: what progress is being made on international partners while tolerating Salafist groups trade links with Sudan? internally. The International Crisis Group says that Sudan tolerates radical Islamists and, most recently, supporters of IS when it is politically advantageous to 4.23 pm do so. Extremism comes from within Sudan and from Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, like my the highest levels: Field-Marshal Bashir has said it is noble friend Lord Sandwich I am an officer of the his ambition to turn the entire country into a sharia All-Party Parliamentary Group for Sudan and South state. Extremist groups operate with the approval of Sudan, and a former chairman of that group. Sudan’sreligious scholars committee, while the journalist The implication of the Question from the noble Gill Lusk says the regime uses, Lord, Lord Hussain, is that Sudan is an island of “the Salafist … and other splinter groups both as deniable policy moderation surrounded by Islamists. In reality, the instruments and as bargaining chips”. reverse is true. In 2015 the report by the United In the long term, the fight against extremism in Sudan Nations Panel of Experts on Sudan warned that the will depend on an inclusive, democratic transformation regime was providing “fertile ground” for Islamist that is sustained by a free and active civil society. It is extremists in neighbouring nations. For 30 years the that development we should be supporting, rather regime has waged war on its own people. That is why than propping up an indicted regime. Sudan is playing GC 489 Sudan [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Sudan GC 490 a dangerous double game, to which the international being made for women in the Sudan but, as I say, there community should be wary of falling victim. Beware is a long way to go. We should be helping Sudan in the crocodiles. every way we can, not condemning the Government.

4.27 pm 4.30 pm Baroness Tonge (Non-Afl): My Lords, I congratulate Baroness Cox (CB): My Lords, I too thank the the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, on securing this debate noble Lord for this opportunity to discuss issues related and declare an interest as a founder of the All-Party to Sudan and the relation of Islamist extremist nations Group for Sudan and South Sudan, along with Hilton with Sudan, and vice versa. Given that it is widely Dawson MP. I am now a member of the All-Party believed that neighbouring Islamist regimes support Group for Sudan. President Bashir because of his commitment to make My first experience of Sudan—indeed, my first Sudan a unified Arabic, Islamic nation, it is not irrelevant experience of a developing country—was as a very to focus on his Islamist extremist policies of the ethnic new MP in 1998. In south Sudan, I lay on the floor of and religious cleansing of indigenous African peoples a tent in a village compound at night and listened to and Christians, traditional believers and Muslims who the sound of drums, which I was told were warning of do not support his Islamist ideology. I would also another attack from the north by militia who travelled mention that in Nigeria, it is widely believed that Sudan down on the train to Wau to terrorise the south, sent supports the Islamist Boko Haram. by the Sudanese Government. They were the “baddies”, I have recently returned from a visit to Sudan, and I was told. The message I got was that it was a simple obtained first-hand evidence of the implementation of fight for independence. I think not. I have since learned its genocidal policies. The Government of Sudan are that the Sudanese Government were right in their blatantly violating conditions required by the United scepticism that the south could form a stable government States for the lifting of sanctions by their total disregard —I shared that view, and the Nuer and the Dinka have of the ceasefire with continued fighting in Darfur, demonstrated that in recent years. including the attack in Nertiti by the Sudanese Army That is not the only problem for the Sudanese under the command of Colonel Mohamed El Tayeb. Government, with rebel tribes and individuals trying The best estimate is that in that attack, 16 civilians to wrest power from the Government all the time. It is were killed and some 72 to 75 civilians were wounded. a huge and diverse country. Sudan has problems to This is an intentional policy. On 22 December 2016, face both within its own country and from neighbouring President Bashir delivered a speech at the military countries and the terrorism they export—others have Merowe archery festival, in which he vowed to continue pointed that out during the debate, so I will not repeat seeking a military solution for the internal conflicts it. I add only that there are other counties that deserve and bragged that the unilateral cessation of hostilities our censure, far more than Sudan perhaps. These are would terminate within a week, irrespective of Khartoum’s countries we happily trade with and enjoy friendly declaratory policies. That has been proven true in relations with—Saudi Arabia heads my list at the Blue Nile, with the fighting in January 2017 a direct moment, currently causing famine in Yemen and hundreds continuation of clashes started in early December of thousands of deaths. Why is the Foreign Office not 2016. There was no pause or reorganisation of Sudanese speaking out about this? armed forces—that is, the ceasefire did not exist for I want now to say something completely different, them operationally. On 9 January, while we were in the as a tribute to Professor Hans Rosling, the Swedish region, the Sudanese army launched a major offensive statistician who made statistics fun and bearable. He on the SPLA-North forces in Arum, Blue Nile state, died two days ago. It was he who first explained to me, and villages were bombed sporadically. with his wonderful graphics and bubblegrams, the In the Nuba mountains, there are numerous reports clear link between maternal health, family planning, of continuing missile attacks on civilians, creating smaller families, and more girls accessing education such terror that families have been forced to flee their and being able to contribute to their country’s economy, homes and live in snake-infested caves with no medical which then grows. The clear link has been made between care and acute shortages of food. Three weeks ago, I women’s reproductive rights and economic progress. climbed one of those Nuba mountains to meet families Sudan has indeed listened to Han Rosling’s message hiding in those caves. I met a girl who had been bitten and, for this reason, should be encouraged. According by a cobra; a woman dying of malaria with no treatment; to the World Health Organization, maternal mortality and a man whose five children had been burnt alive has more than halved in 10 years, and the under-five when a shell hit the place where they were sheltering. mortality rate and neonatal deaths have also declined. People would not be living and dying in these appalling All these rates are, of course, still very high—they conditions in Sudan unless forced to do so because of started from that high level—but the plan to further continuing military offensives by Khartoum. reduce them was devised by the Sudanese Government in 2013 and it is to be encouraged and commended. This highlights the crisis of humanitarian need: Despite laws in the Sudan banning both FGM and UN officials acknowledge that because of the ongoing child marriage, they still contribute to maternal deaths disagreements over humanitarian access points, and morbidity but the Sudanese Government are trying “the civilians in the war-affected areas continue to suffer”. hard on these issues. Led by the wonderful Ahfad The UN now estimates that over 600,000 people are in University for Women, which is near Khartoum, and dire need of humanitarian assistance in the southern many women parliamentarians—I think their percentage and western parts of the Nuba mountains and in Blue is in fact higher than we have here—a lot of progress is Nile state. This raises the issue of the continuing, GC 491 Sudan [LORDS] Sudan GC 492

[BARONESS COX] Britain should take a lead in this new era of urgent need for cross-border aid, an issue I have raised co-operation as China and Saudi Arabia are already repeatedly with Her Majesty’s Government. But nothing present in the region with investment. Crucially, the has happened so far and people continue to die because increasing threat of terrorism in Africa and the Middle of a lack of food and healthcare. East, with the presence of Daesh, al-Qaeda and Boko The international community has the responsibility Haram among others on Sudan’s border, have rendered to protect and to provide. It is manifestly failing on compelling the need for international actors to encourage both counts by allowing the Government of Sudan to Sudan in its anti-extremism drive and its threat against continue to slaughter their own civilians with impunity its neighbours.Sudan is now at the forefront of countering and by failing to ensure the provision of life-saving irregular migration and human trafficking, and we medicines and food for hundreds of thousands of can achieve peace and reconciliation and the protection civilians. Will Her Majesty’s Government at last take of human rights only if we assist Sudan post-sanctions urgent action to ensure cross-border aid, and to end with the necessary skills and resources. the impunity with which the Government of Sudan Given the current theatre of conflict and wars, are continuing military offensives despite their alleged which as we have witnessed have brought nothing but commitment to the ceasefire? death, destruction and enmities, I no longer believe or accept that continually and complacently adding further Lord Sheikh: My Lords, before the noble Baroness to these conflicts does any justice to the people of Sudan sits down— or our own regional presence and interest. Sudan is an important strategic partner in fighting terrorism and Baroness Goldie: Order. radicalisation, and is managing significant numbers of 4.35 pm incoming families from South Sudan, Libya and elsewhere. It does not call them refugees. Let us not be self-righteous Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl): My Lords, I thank my about individual countries when we so often suffer noble friend Lord Hussain for initiating this debate at from selective amnesia about the impact of our own a time when our own Government are rephrasing their history.Today we know what has happened to minorities relationship with Sudan. I express my gratitude to my in many Gulf and Middle East conflicts. noble friend Lord Ahmed for his remarkable and As negotiations progress, I wish to see us work with long-standing commitment to the people of Sudan the Sudanese Government to ensure that they embody and for introducing me to that beautiful country with human rights and the rights of minorities at their core. immeasurable potential. We have a long history with We can do that only if we are at the forefront of the the Sudanese people that they have not forgotten. During partnership to rebuild Sudan. Weshould do so alongside our visits, we met a number of women parliamentarians the impressive Sudanese diaspora, many of whom see and, together with the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, this as a glimpse of hope. I am glad that through the who is not able to take part today,through the wonderful APPG on Sudan we aim to continue to strengthen our team at IPU we were able to organise a successful visit ties with the many professionals who are willing to of six powerful women parliamentarians to our utilise their talents and skills for a safe and secure Sudan. Parliament. I do not need to labour the importance of such exchanges to noble Lords but both these visits provided a great insight into women’s presence in the 4.40 pm political, business and education sectors. While we Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I thank cannot overstate the impact of international sanctions the noble Lord for initiating this debate. Sudan is a as barriers to women’s equality and well-being, women country that has a more or less constant history of across Sudan are successfully working within those civil wars, military coups and human rights abuses. As constraints to advance women’s rights. The impressive the noble Lord, Lord Alton, pointed out, President work of the British Council should also be noted here. Bashir has been indicted under the International Criminal On our last visit we were able to see staff and Court. We all hope that Sudan is on a road map, and students at the University of Khartoum, meet families we have of course heard about the African Union’s in Darfur itself, witness an architectural excavation in road map. Can the Minister tell us more about how Jebel Marra and meet UNIMID peacekeepers. On that road map might lead to greater peace and security neither of these visits did we witness an Islamic state; in a country that deserves far better? clearly the President of Sudan has failed for 20 years We have heard in the debate about the recent visit to Islamise the whole country. What I was not prepared to Sudan—just a few weeks ago—by Sir Simon for was the effect of the crippling sanctions on the McDonald from the FCO, who was accompanied by Sudanese people themselves, with basic healthcare not the DfID Permanent Secretary, Sir Mark Lowcock. In available, from maternity provision and eye drops to their exchanges with the Government of Sudan, and also diabetes drugs and asthma pumps. I visited a hospital with opposition leaders whom they had the opportunity unannounced, having chosen it out of three or four, to meet, we are told that they raised the question of and I was utterly shocked—I was almost in tears— at human rights and migration, and humanitarian and how empty the building was. It did not lack patients, development assistance. What is the Government’s thousands of whom lined its corridors, but the medicine assessment of those discussions in relation to human cupboards in the treatment rooms were bare. I therefore rights abuses? What assurances did they get on how welcome the latest pathways to lifting international these might be addressed? sanctions. The people of Sudan deserve to be free of Wehave also heard in the debate about bringing Sudan these constraints and suffering that are not their fault. back more formally into the international community. After two decades, it is time. We heard recently that President Trump had included GC 493 Sudan [9 FEBRUARY 2017] Sudan GC 494

Sudan in his ban on visitors to the US; what is the There has recently been a reduction in the level of Government’s assessment of the impact that the ban armed conflict between the Government of Sudan might have in terms of giving succour to the terrorists? and armed movements. That is encouraging, but I The Home Secretary described the ban as a “propaganda understand the concerns of noble Lords. We fully opportunity” for ISIS. As we have also heard, DfID support the peace process led by the African Union spends nearly £50 million a year in Sudan. I hope that High-Level Implementation Panel. It is vital that all the Minister can tell us what the Government’sassessment sides reach agreements on the permanent cessation of is of the impact of that aid in transforming the country hostilities and unrestricted humanitarian access to economically and, more importantly, in terms of civil the conflict areas. Sudan’s national dialogue has the society and defending human rights. potential to solve this matter. We were pleased to hear that the next stage will remain open and inclusive for 4.42 pm all Sudanese political parties, and we urge all sides to commit to it fully. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My Lords, We are concerned, however, by the arbitrary arrest I also join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord and detention of human rights defenders and opposition Hussain, on securing this debate. As he made clear, party members in Sudan. We have raised our concerns extremism is a global problem. In all its forms it with the Government of Sudan and will continue to attacks the fundamental values that bind us together do so.The noble Lord, Lord Alton, rightly raised concerns as a global community and undermines our efforts to about the three Christian men who were sentenced on build a better,more tolerant world. The UK Government 29 January. We continue to work closely with human are committed to working with our international partners rights lawyers working on cases relating to freedom of to tackle the threat posed by extremism both here in religion or belief, and we will continue to raise cases of the UK and overseas. Today I will therefore reflect on concern directly with the Government of Sudan as the current situation in Sudan and the region, which part of our ongoing human rights dialogue. It will not has been set out by noble Lords—I would say set out surprise the noble Lord to hear that we are in contact clearly, but there is disagreement among noble Lords with the Czech Republic, because of course it is one of about some of the major parts of the detail, but its nationals who has been sentenced. Clearly, we are hearing these differences is part of the importance of extremely concerned by the results of those trials. debates such as this. I will also reflect on the work of Sudan’s central position between east and west the UK Government as we try to help that country Africa means that it has historically been a crossroads tackle extremism. between these two regions, as well as Libya to the Sudan forms part of the fragile Sahel region, which north. It is not just a crossroads for ordinary traders; it is blighted by internal conflict, weak governance, violent is a key facilitation hub for organised criminality, such extremism, and the spillover of conflicts outside its as smuggling and trafficking in people. These routes borders—most notably, as we were reminded, from are highly susceptible to exploitation by terrorist groups. Libya and Nigeria. Continued instability there poses a We have been working with our international partners threat to security in the wider north and west Africa and other regional Governments to help to defeat region. Currently, the main terrorist threat in the Sahel terrorism and bring stability to the Sahel. In the past, is from al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. A number of the Sudanese Government have failed adequately other terrorist groups also operate in neighbouring to co-operate or confront the problem of Islamic Egypt, primarily targeting Egyptian state and security extremism and human trafficking. That is why it is officials, and in Libya. In particular, of course, we crucial that the UK engages with the Sudanese have to mention Daesh. Government to encourage them to work more closely In Sudan itself, the long-running conflicts in Darfur with the international community.I believe that progress and the Two Areas have created a dire humanitarian is being made. situation across the country,with approximately 5.8 million Questions were asked about the lifting of US sanctions. Sudanese in need of humanitarian assistance. I pay It is clear that progress has been made—national tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, dialogue is an important development and no one in this respect. She has been consistent in the assistance should ignore it, and the ceasefire is holding to the she is trying to give to the country. It is important for main part. There is an issue about Nertiti—I understand the Government of Sudan to be committed to the that—but there is a problem with getting evidence on international proposal for improving humanitarian it. In the Two Areas,we are hearing from the SPLM-North access to the Two Areas. They most recently expressed that there is no breach of ceasefire. So let us recognise support for that when the Foreign Minister, Ghandour, the progress made by the Government of Sudan when spoke in a meeting with the UK special representative we can. The fact is, however, where the Government of to Sudan on 24 January. We continue to urge the Sudan have begun to show that they are willing to SPLM-North to agree to these proposals to guarantee co-operate with the international community to counter medical supplies brought directly to the areas under violent extremism, the international community has to its control as a way to unblock the whole system and re-evaluate its position. The previous US Administration obtain a broader agreement for long-term access. As I did that and made progress with temporarily lifting have mentioned recently in the House, there was an some of its more damaging economic sanctions. If opportunity for an agreement whereby USAID would made permanent, the lifting of US sanctions is have delivered humanitarian support, but it was considerably likely to strengthen Sudan’s economy, SPLM-North that walked out of the talks, which was which in turn could increase the resilience of the country disappointing. to violent extremism. GC 495 Sudan [LORDS] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 496

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] encouraged by the new willingness of the Sudanese I am advised that yesterday, the United Nations Government to co-operate with international partners Security Council unanimously extended the mandate on these vital issues. Through our strategic dialogue of the UN sanctions regime on Sudan, including the with the Government of Sudan we will continue to panel of experts. I say again that there is some sign of promote further co-operation. By working together, progress. While the panel has faced obstacles from the we will overcome intolerance and build peaceful and Sudanese Government, it has now received visas to prosperous societies for all our citizens. It takes all of travel to Sudan to monitor the implementation adherence our energies in government to do it; I know we can with sanctions. Wewill continue to urge the Government count on the energies of noble Lords here to join in of Sudan to co-operate fully with the panel of experts that work. and to adhere with the UN sanctions regime. I feel that it will not only be the Government watching 4.54 pm that—noble Lords here will monitor it very carefully with some of their excellent contacts. Sitting suspended. We can also play our part, but we have made it clear to the Government of Sudan that the current conflicts, human rights abuses and business environment remain Education: Maintained and Independent obstacles to a sizeable increase in interest from British Schools companies. We continue to urge the Government of Question Sudan to make progress on all the issues raised by noble Lords today around threats to the human rights 5 pm and security of all people in Sudan. It should not be Asked by Lord Lexden some ethnic groups that have the ability to prosper—it is for all. Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment I assure my noble friend Lord Sheikh that we are they have made of the progress of partnership work working towards promoting and protecting good between maintained and independent schools. governance, the rule of law and human rights as the best way to ensure our collective security. Our work is Lord Lexden (Con): My Lords, I declare at the focused on two areas. First, on ending conflict and, outset my interest in the subject of this debate. I am a secondly, on improving resilience. In that way, there former general secretary of the Independent Schools must be room for us at some stage to work further Council—the ISC—which both accredits, and works with the Government of Sudan to make sure that the on behalf of, some 1,300 of the 2,500 independent national dialogue works, is open to all and that we see schools in our country today. Although more than an improvement in human rights. It is only that 80% of pupils being educated in the independent improvement that will enable further engagement. Our sector attend ISC schools, it should be noted that strategic dialogue provides an important platform for there are more than 1,000 other schools in the sector us to discuss areas where we would like to increase which prefer to go their own way. I am also president co-operation with the Sudanese Government, such as of the Independent Schools Association, one of the countering violent extremism and migration. We will ISC’s constituent bodies. I thank all noble Lords who continue our conversation on these issues at the next will be contributing to this debate. dialogue in Khartoum in March. I sought this debate primarily to provide an opportunity Radicalisation within Sudan is another issue of for the further discussion of partnership work between concern. Extremist groups could seek to exploit vulnerable ISC and maintained schools, which featured quite communities in order to incite political unrest and prominently in the debates in 2015 on what is now the anti-western sentiment. Here too we are taking practical Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Act. At action. Weare working with staff, students and graduates the Report stage on that measure, which took place on at the University of Medical Sciences and Technology 20 July 2015, important commitments were given on in Khartoum to raise awareness of the issue and behalf of the ISC and the Government by my noble suggest options for tackling the risks. As part of our friend Lord Bridges of Headley. I thought it would be engagement with the university and its alumni, we useful to revisit those commitments and review progress. have also continued to provide outreach material on I would also like to comment briefly on the proposals countering violent extremism to students, staff and relating to independent schools in the Government’s parents, and supported the visits of expert speakers to remarkable consultation paper, Schools that Work for Sudan from the UK, including the imam to the British Everyone, which was published last September, and on Armed Forces. the ISC’s response to it. The document’s remarkable In conclusion, violent extremism is a growing concern features include poor drafting that invites stern rebuke in many parts of the world. That includes the Sahel from the nation’s English teachers. Its opening sentences and extremist groups operating in the region which embodies a tiresome party political catchphrase: continue to pose a threat to Sudan. It is important that “This consultation sets out the Government’s ambition to the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, worded his Question create an education system that extends opportunity to everyone, for Short Debate to put Sudan within the wider context not just the privileged few”. of threats around the region, so that instead of focusing The Government cannot possibly believe that the aim only on Sudan, we consider the Question against the of education reformers since the 19th century—Liberal, background of threats that Sudan faces and how we Labour and Tory—has been to fashion a system that need to build resilience across the region. We are serves the interests of only a privileged few. GC 497 Maintained and Independent Schools[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 498

Partnerships between the two sectors of education “more solidly on a better understanding of what is actually the have existed for a long time. When I arrived at the case”,—[Official Report, 20/7/15; col. 974.] Independent Schools Council in 1997, exactly 20 years where partnership work is concerned. He added that ago, I found a well-established tradition of encouraging the research would be published and debated in the work with maintained schools and local communities. House. The Minister will no doubt report on the progress An annual audit was published. It occasionally got a of this important work when he comes to reply. small paragraph in the press. For the first time, the I have spoken disrespectfully about certain aspects Government started to show interest. In 1998, the of the Government’s consultation paper. I do not have then Labour Minister of State for School Standards, undivided admiration for the section of it which sets Stephen Byers, established an advisory group on out proposals for independent schools. Though proper independent/state school partnerships which awarded acknowledgement is given to existing partnership work, the modest grants to specific projects involving schools in proposals are expressed in the language of intimidation, both sectors. not partnership, which is astonishing from a Tory I circulated a paper in 1998 on behalf of this group. Government. The message is unambiguous: work hard It stated: “The general perception has been, for far too to add, long, of two education sectors working separately “extra capacity to the state sector”, towards the same goal—the success of their pupils. and create masses of free places in your own schools, Since all schools are in the business of trying to secure or your charitable status will be at risk. Nowhere is the best education for their pupils, each sector has a there any recognition of the fact that the total annual wealth of skills and expertise from which the other benefit arising from charitable status is some £150 million, could benefit”. The stress that was laid on the value while ISC schools, some of which do not even have that both sectors can derive from partnership was—and charitable status, devote over £850 million to means-tested remains—crucial. It became one of the themes of bursaries and fee remission. Labour education policy. The ISC has replied to the Government in the What we lacked over the years was really authoritative, language of partnership. It has proposed jointly funded detailed information about the extent of partnership free places and consortia of schools to help create work. The need for it emerged clearly during the more good places in the maintained sector. Discussions debates in 2015, to which I have referred. Some noble between the ISC and the Department for Education Lords, who felt strongly that not nearly enough was are in progress.I hope they reach a satisfactory conclusion. being done, pressed for legal compulsion, particularly Back in 1997, the Labour Government set out three in the spheres of music and sport, where much is now guidingprinciples:first,“thehighstandardsbeingachieved being done in partnership but where undoubtedly still in independent schools must not be compromised”; more could be achieved. Facts were required. As Dr Mark secondly, “change must be voluntary”; and thirdly, Bailey,High Master of St Paul’sSchool, has said recently: “theremustbenoimpositionfromabove”.TheGovernment “It’s an area of education that is particularly vulnerable to should stick to those well-tried principles. wide generalisations and a lack of full understanding”. In July 2015, the ISC committed itself to developing 5.08 pm a website which would, for the first time, provide a platform where partnership work could be exhibited, Lord Parekh (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble and to which schools in both sectors could contribute. Lord, Lord Lexden, for securing this debate and for The website, entitled Schools Together, was launched introducing it so well. in January 2016; 1550 projects now appear on it. The Prime Minister has spoken often about creating Furthermore, the ISC is, as it promised in 2015, now a meritocratic Britain. By this she means that a good gathering fuller information than ever before from education should be within the reach of all our children. member schools—information that it is sharing with It is therefore a scandal that nearly 90% of our independent the Charity Commission. For its part, the commission schools are rated good or outstanding and 80% of has produced fuller guidance on public benefit and them outstanding, but only 20% of state schools are now requires partnership work to be reported to it in regarded as outstanding. This leads to a waste of greater detail. talent because state schools do not produce outstanding In all this, it is essential to bear one point above all children. It leads to a shortage of skilled labour and, in mind: independent schools vary so greatly in size, in more importantly, to resentment and frustration among income, in areas of particular expertise and much else a large number of state school pupils who feel that besides, that uniform obligations in respect of partnership they are not getting their due for their talent. work could not be laid equitably upon them. As the It is striking that it is the threat of Brexit that has ISC has put it in its response to the Government’s alerted us to the enormity of this danger and, as the consultation paper: Prime Minister said, now that Britain is about to “We have found that successful partnerships rest on strong embark on a new adventure it is time to rethink all the local relationships and freedom for schools to support them old certainties. It is unfortunate that a question of this according to their particular circumstances and capabilities”. magnitude should come up in this context, which is That has always seemed to me the right approach. polemical, polarises the country and does not allow us I hope this Government agree with it. an independent assessment of the two concepts of One further commitment was given in July 2015. schools. My noble friend Lord Bridges announced that the When we talk about independent schools it is also Charity Commission would carry out a research project worth bearing in mind that there are about 2,300 and so that discussion could be based, 50% of them are pretty small—with fewer than GC 499 Maintained and Independent Schools[LORDS] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 500

[LORD PAREKH] and career advice; and share best practices. These are 150 pupils—which educate between them just under some of the ways that independent schools can help half a million pupils aged five to 15. The partnership state ones; there are many others. between state schools and independent schools has to Let us remember one important thing. The two sets be seen in that context. So how do we improve state of schools are never going to be complete partners. schools? Various Governments have come and gone Rivalry is built into their structure. Independent schools and floated all kinds of ideas and we have more or less are in the business of recruiting fee-paying pupils, and agreed that if we are going to improve state schools we fee-paying schools are decidedly what state schools are will have to think in terms of allocating more resources not. Given that there is this rivalry and that independent to them, with better teachers, greater autonomy and schools are going to be looking for children who are leadership at the top, and increasing parents’ say in prepared to pay, why should they raise the standards how they are run. Independent schools can and do of state schools? If the standards are raised to a high contribute to this, but not for the reasons that are level, why would anybody want to go to independent generally cited. The reason cited is that independent schools? On the continent of Europe, in France and schools get charitable status; they get relief from business Germany, very few students go to independent schools, rates and therefore, as a kind of contractual quid pro because state schools are considered sufficient. I am quo, they should give something back to the state not saying that it is in the interest of independent which has given them so much. schools to impoverish or keep state schools parasitic I do not think that argument particularly works or on them, but I emphasise that there is a relationship of is even particularly valid. The independent schools if patron and client. It is not a relationship of equals, but pressured could say that they are not interested in has an element of rivalry. Consistent with that, we accepting the business rate relief and the charitable should certainly think of collaboration between the status. What do you do then? Go back to square one? two, but not raise our expectations too high. They might say that the concession they are getting by virtue of not having to pay business rates is so small 5.16 pm that it is not worth the bother. What do we do then? Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, when I put my Are they completely exempted from all the obligations name down for this debate, I wondered whether I was that they have to state schools? I suggest that to couch getting into very deep water. I can now confirm that I the argument in terms of a contractual quid pro quo is am at least up to my waist. When we talk about dangerous for both independent schools and state independent schools assisting the state sector, we are schools. talking about something that has happened, or where We should rather think in the following terms. there has been a far higher degree of interaction than First, independent schools by virtue of the fact that most people realise. I do not know whether it is an they are outstanding and getting wonderful results advantage, but I have the experience of knowing how, have certain moral obligations to their fellow citizens. for instance, the private, independent providers have I emphasise the importance of moral obligation because assisted in things such as provision for those with it cannot be denied that those schools that have the special educational needs. It is also worth noting that resources and the capacity ought to be able to contribute certain independent schools have been a resource that to those which have fewer resources and less capacity. has been used, even though that was often in state I also think of the argument articulated in the boarding schools, for those with severe problems who language of enlightened self-interest. If the distance are identified and can get through—and have done a between state schools and independent schools remains pretty good job in many cases. That is probably because as large then there is going to be resentment and the state system has not provided for those problems. constant hatred for independent schools, and that is How do we develop a relationship where somebody not the climate in which independent schools will be is providing a service—and charging, to an extent—for able to function. There is also crude self-interest, somebody not doing so? As has already been mentioned because independent schools are increasingly becoming by virtually everybody today, there is a degree of clash homes for the children of foreigners. I was told recently here. Many of the smaller schools that did it have that the number of overseas nationals, especially Chinese disappeared as provision got slightly better in the state and others, whose children are admitted to our schools, sector. That is a conflict. More specialist providers, for either here or in their campuses abroad, is much larger people who have failed within the state system, still than it used to be—about 33% larger over the past five have a role—the recovery centre, effectively. How do years. If this is the situation they are going to be we take that expertise and use it? reduced to then it is rather important that they should Another subject is sport, although the noble Lord, think in terms of collaborating with state schools in Lord Moynihan, has beaten me to that. It is something our country. of a scandal that, if you want to win an Olympic The question therefore is to articulate why it is medal, you can up your chances by going to an important that the two sets of schools should be able independent school. It might be that most of the to co-operate. I think they can co-operate at various sports that are attracting the mainstream and are easy levels, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, pointed out, to access do not have very high Olympic status—football and I want to add one or two other ideas. They can being the classic with rugby league following rapidly. lend their staff, especially in minority subjects; provide If you have schools that are not going on to that access to facilities—for example, in science labs, sports pathway, how do we provide support and help? If we facilities, or music; extend a larger number of scholarships are not going to start sending people on sporting than they have done so far; provide teaching, coaching excellence education pathways, how do we provide the GC 501 Maintained and Independent Schools[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 502 assistance? Asking the independent schools, “What friend’s speech today has caused me some anxiety, are you doing that identifies here?”, and trying to because charitable status could be in danger if schools bring that identification process into the state system do not co-operate with the Government’s wishes. Some would be very interesting. We also need to identify are fearful that the reporting procedures could lead to that some of these answers will not be readily available the construction of a league table of achievement in if you are in a state school. In the sporting world, you the help they are able to give to the state sector. will be much better off if that independent school At the moment, in principle, the removal of charitable talks to the school and the local sports clubs. You are status means that a school’s assets could be sequestered not identifying someone with raw talent; technically, and given to another charity.That is unlikely to happen, you are identifying someone who enjoys training. That as we know, but such a threat is still felt by independent is much more important in the modern sporting schools to be in the air. environment. Roy of the Rovers kicking a ball around Charitable status brings with it certain fiscal the pitch has gone, certainly if he wants to be an advantages—usually cut-price local taxes, exemption international-quality sprinter. from corporation taxes and the ability to obtain gift How can we bring the expertise in this environment aid on donations towards certain charitable ends,although forward to help in this sector? If we are to take over not of course on fee income. However, that is not the and help to run schools, which from what I have read huge subsidy that some newspapers seem to imagine; has not been a totally successful experience so far, how independent school governors estimate that those tax can we get this expertise brought in? To go back to advantages account for about 3% of income. There special educational needs, for instance, are those with can be few schools which do not spend this on pupils less severe needs better dealt with by the independent from homes that cannot afford fees.Nationally,charitable sector? What if they go to a state-run school that is status brings independent schools an annual notional bigger, with more people, and is being told to be more tax saving of some £100 million; however, research flexible, perhaps by allowing better technology into suggests that they spend more than £260 million on the classroom? How does that fit into a classroom? I bursaries—bringing it to the sum that my noble friend will not go into a diatribe about SATs and the English- mentioned. language testing that goes on for dyslexics at the Independent schools have to tread carefully when moment—I shall save that delight for the Minister on assisting state schools. First, they have to reassure another day—but how do you build flexibility into the fee-paying parents that such a charitable effort is current very regimented system? How do you apply worth while and the cost of it unlikely to diminish that? their own children’s education; secondly, they have to These are difficult tasks. If we find a way forward, be extremely careful not to give the appearance of that is great, but if we cannot, what are we doing? Are patronage. However, if handled carefully, all this can we encouraging the independent sector simply to offer be extremely beneficial. I have seen wonderful projects more bursaries? That might help some individuals, but involving the teaching of reading by independent school will it help the majority of schools? No. How are we to sixth-formers at local primaries, from which the older get that interaction and expertise through? If the students gained as much as the younger ones. A good Minister has good examples of pathways that bring in number of cadet units in independent schools have expertise in general fields to the places where we know been instrumental in setting up CCF companies in we do not do that well—in the state sector especially, local secondaries. In several cases these now meet as as the independent sector does better—I am all ears. joint forces. It is the identification of how to apply the extra We have heard a great deal in the past, although information and expertise to these schools that will be little today, about charitable independent schools being very interesting. If we do that, I hope we will establish able to prove public benefit. A landmark judicial review a path that in a short time does not need the independent quite properly defined such benefit rather more liberally sector.That brings us right back around to the competition than the then chairman of the Charity Commission level. I speak with some knowledge on this: you do not had promulgated. It is true, however, that the modern go to the independent sector if you think you will get conception of charity somehow sits uncomfortably the service in the state sector. Good state schools often with independent schools, which are often seen, usually have very careful application processes for getting you unfairly, as the preserve of the wealthy. This was guyed in there—that is, where you live and house prices. If really rather well by Ian Hislop in a spoof charity we can ensure that we have this identification pathway appeal in which he said, “A gift of only £50 will buy a going through, we are doing something good here. If boater for Henrietta”. we do not, it will be window dressing. On 12 September last year, I asked the Minister 5.22 pm whether independent schools that wish to do so will be able to opt out of charitable status and thereby demit Lord Lingfield (Con): My Lords, I thank my noble the 3% or 4% of their income. His reply was that they friend Lord Lexden for instigating this debate. I remind will. This is good news, and I suggest that the law noble Lords of my education interests in the register. could assist those who so wished to opt out by allowing I entirely support independent schools giving assistance them to keep their current assets and be given the and advice to schools in the state sector. My noble status of what I believe in Scotland are public trusts friend and other noble Lords have given examples of with no tax advantages. I asked because the governing good practice in this area. However, I have several bodies of independent schools—I was for some years concerns. I would want to be sure that independent the chairman of one—tend to take a very long-term schools did not feel under pressure to join in. My noble view. Many of them have survived for hundreds of GC 503 Maintained and Independent Schools[LORDS] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 504

[LORD LINGFIELD] and I agree with her. The Independent Schools Council years by so doing. Threatened in the not-too-distant has depicted this as a threat: I would call it much more past by the Charity Commission, some have told me a reminder. If a school is a charity, it should be that they fear that threat will someday come again and fulfilling charitable purposes. A great many of our that they would value being able to opt out, even if it best independent schools were founded as charities meant the loss of fiscal advantages. Most charitable and have moved some way from their original objectives schools in the independent sector will doubtless wish at their foundation. to remain as charities, with the advantages and possible Independent schools have responsibilities, apart from disadvantages brought by this, but those that do not being charities, to the well-being of this country—their should, in my view, have the option. corporate social responsibility, if you like—and to There is one great gift that schools in the private their communities. The best independent/state school sector can give to the state sector, a gift that costs them partnership I have seen, in York, is partly because the nothing. It is the example they set, especially in the use independent schools in York are Quaker and have a of their independence. Each is a separate, autonomous very strong sense of their social responsibility and of corporate body; even those schools in groups such as their responsibility to their community in particular. the Woodard Foundation retain their clear individuality. I am conscious that there is a great deal of variation Decisions about financial priorities, staffing, curriculum, across England. The situation of independent schools buildings and plant are made by the governors and in London and south-east is very different from that in professionals on the spot, without reference to any Yorkshire and the north of England. I am also conscious local or national bureaucracies. This was the freedom that the partnerships I have seen and heard of depend that first the grant-maintained schools movement of very much on individual leadership. A good person the 1990s and then its successor,the academies programme, pushing something does extraordinarily well and then promised state schools and there is no better way of when he or she retires things very often fall away. It raising standards in them. There is every possible is a patchy record, but I welcome the Government’s good reason for state and independent schools to encouragement of more active engagement. I hope the work closely together, but it must be made very clear Minister takes that fully on board. that such arrangements are purely voluntary on both There is resistance on both sides. We have seen that, sides. and I have heard from people in independent schools 5.29 pm about unfortunately or unintentionally giving the impression of being patronising. I have heard from Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I declare left-wing teachers in state schools that they do not my interests: I am chair of a musical education charity, want anything to do with the independent sector, et Voces Cantabiles Music, and my wife is a director of a cetera, but in a number of places, partnership now multi-academy trust in Bradford. works extremely well. The one I know best is Westminster I became involved in this issue partly because I had Grey Coat—a foundation of two state schools and to answer for charities and I worked with charities three independent schools—in which the director of when in the coalition Government, but I also followed the foundation says very strongly that they have mutual the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, in tabling an amendment benefit and learn from each other all the way across. I to the charities Bill in 2015. The noble Lord, Lord was at Emanuel School the other week for the foundation’s Moynihan, has asked me to give his apologies today as sixth-form essay prize,in which the boys from Westminster he is unfortunately not able to be with us as he has to City School, a state school, won more prizes than any leave for a foreign visit this afternoon. other school. It was very impressive and pleasing. Since then, the situation has moved on. The Prime That is precisely the sort of thing one should be citing. Minister made an astonishingly strong speech last Social awareness and social integration within our September: divided national community are part of what this is all “Through their charitable status, private schools collectively about. There is no single model. Different forms of reduce their tax bills by millions every year. And I want to … co-operation will fit different communities and different enact a tougher test on the amount of public benefit required”. circumstances. The best model is certainly not to She noted that, sponsor academies or to offer free places, although in “these schools have become more and more divorced from normal some areas where sixth forms are in short supply, life”, experimenting with providing free places for sixth-formers with a rapidly rising percentage of pupils with rich might be part of the way forward. Jointly funded parents from overseas countries. bursaries are not a priority either, although, again, in Paragraph7of lastSeptember’sconsultationdocument, rural areas for able students one might perhaps experiment. referring to independent schools, states: Fundraising for bursaries at independent schools is “We should expect these schools to assist the state-funded part of the way forward. Those that have endowments sector more directly … by building capacity in the sector”. are, in a number of cases—Eton College being the A later paragraph states that, most striking one—funding a number of scholarships of this sort and perhaps more should be done in this “these requirements will be built into existing agreements, so that … the ability to … maintain the key benefits associated with way. independent schools’ charitable status, is explicitly linked to doing There is excellent best practice from, for example, more”. Rugby,Eton, York and Wimbledon: specialised teaching; If a Labour Government had said that, the Daily Mail extra subjects and topics, such as “masterclasses” in and the Daily Telegraph would have been all over it, York, which I have sat in on; shared music, drama and but I note that this was a Conservative Prime Minister, sport; shared school governorships, as in the model of GC 505 Maintained and Independent Schools[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 506

Rugby and others; and sharing of teaching best practice. All too rarely do maintained schools, or academies for This could develop further, with shared careers advice, that matter, have anything like the range of subjects shared attachments to local employers for work experience, available in the independent sector and it is right that and so on. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Lingfield, in return for the benefits of charitable status, private said, there is resistance from parents and governors in schools should make a contribution in whatever way what one might call the second division of private they can. It is to be hoped that the traffic is two-way in schools—I will not name the schools where I have a physical sense also. While there are benefits for state heard this. They say that they have paid good money school pupils attending classes at independent schools to buy educational advantage and they do not see why in subjects that are perhaps not available in their own others should share it for free. It is a sentiment that I school, it must also be of value for teachers in independent have heard particularly in Yorkshire, which would schools to visit publicly funded schools not just to probably not surprise noble Lords. impart knowledge and skills but to gain a better There is a schools partnership across Bradford, but understanding of the conditions under which their when I was talking to head teachers at state schools state sector counterparts operate. there, they said, “That’s fine; if a private or grammar There has been an increase in the amount of crossover school wants to come and join us it is welcome—but it activity since the passing of the Charities (Protection had better ask first”. In fact, independent schools in and Social Investment) Act 2016, referred to by both the north of England are not as well plugged into this the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Lord, network as one would like. I regret that we do not have Lord Wallace of Saltaire. That legislation has led to an as much evidence as possible on what is going on— increase in the extent to which independent schools I look forward to the ISC survey coming out. engage with local communities and state schools to I was upset, I have to say, when talking to the head share resources, expertise and facilities. It has also teachers of a number of state schools, to hear them resulted in the development of a website called Schools saying things such as, “If I had the spare capacity or Together which promotes and encourages partnership the spare money for this, I would love it, but I am working between schools. It now has the added benefit more concerned about how I prevent my school going of being a resource to which any school, state or bankrupt in the next three years and how I avoid independent, can refer if they want to gain a clearer losing half a dozen teachers because of the squeeze on impression of what kind of joined-up activities can be our budget”. Of course, there are similar pressures on established. a number of independent schools, particularly those That was then, but it is fair to say that to a significant outside the south-east, and boarding schools. extent the landscape changed with the publication I conclude from this that we are in a changing last September of what the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, situation—the structure and situation of independent pointedly called the Government’s “remarkable” schools are themselves changing—but we nevertheless consultation paper, Schools That Work for Everyone. want to encourage partnerships of this sort as much as He talked of the paper’s stated ambition to create an possible. I am glad to see that the Government are education system that serves not just the privileged doing this and that charitable status—charitable few,and I think he exposed the vapidity of the document’s schools—is a part of this. But it is not the only part, title. I agree with him, but I have a more fundamental because we expect all schools to share the responsibility complaint about the consultation paper—its very title. for what happens in their communities and in our I have raised this with the Minister before: to name it society as a whole. Schools That Work for Everyone is a cruel deception because not once in its 36 pages do the words “special 5.37 pm educational needs and disabilities”, appear. So whoever Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, I too it works for, it is not everyone. thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for sponsoring The consultation paper was remarkably strident this debate and pay tribute to him for the pithy way in about the independent sector in referring to what was which he introduced what has been an interesting expected of it, adopting a tone that I think everyone debate. I may surprise quite a few people, not least in noticed was markedly different from that of the my own party, when I say that I believe that independent aforementioned Charities Act, when the Government schools are currently doing quite a good job in terms were much more sympathetic to private schools. Perhaps of partnership work with maintained schools. That is the change in approach had its roots in the fact that not to say that more cannot be achieved because it for the first time ever we have a Prime Minister and a always can, but given that 1,112 schools out of 1,280 Secretary of State for Education who were both educated members of the Independent Schools Council are at comprehensive schools. Yes, the Prime Minister already engaged in partnerships in varying forms with attended a grammar school, but she was in the privileged state schools, then that at the very least demonstrates a position—even though I suspect it may not have seemed willingness to engage. That engagement is of course that way to her at the time—of experiencing a school by both sectors because, as the noble Lord, Lord making the change from a grammar school to a Lexden, said, there is value that both can derive from comprehensive. these partnerships. While acknowledging that partnership working was The facilities that private schools have can be of under way, the consultation paper came up with the particular benefit; by that I mean not just the recreational hitherto unknown idea of telling independent schools facilities referred to by noble Lords, but teachers with the capacity to do so to sponsor academies or set specialising in the creative arts, from the performing up new free schools and be responsible for ensuring arts to fine art, music tuition to film and media. that they were rated good or outstanding within a GC 507 Maintained and Independent Schools[LORDS] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 508

[LORD WATSON OF INVERGOWRIE] the benefits of their charitable status, we believe that certain period. Alternatively,they could offer a proportion establishing new schools or sponsoring academies is of places with fully-funded bursaries to those whose not the way to do so. On the other hand, partnership families are unable to afford the fees. The Independent working should continue to expand, to the benefit of Schools Council showed an ability to think outside the both sectors. box and proposed the creation of up to 10,000 free places in independent schools every year for children 5.45 pm for whom those schools would not otherwise be an option. As in many similar situations, though, there TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department was a catch: it would be a jointly funded bursary for Education (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, I am very scheme to which the Government would contribute no pleased to answer this Question for Short Debate. It is more than the cost of a state school place.The independent timely that the Committee considers this matter. There school places will be available across the age groups has been considerable progress, but the Government and will be non-selective except in terms of ensuring want a lot more partnership between state schools and that a child can cope with the independent school’s the independent sector. We want that growth to reflect expectations, although what that may mean was not a new attitude towards the role that the independent explained. sector can play in educating our nation’s children. As a Minister, I have seen many excellent examples of such Sceptical as to its ability to establish new schools, partnerships, and the successful ones always contain which of course is not an area in which it has expertise, some key ingredients: enthusiasm on both sides; staff the ISC offered to, willing to play their part; mutual benefit, as the noble “work with ministers, regional schools commissioners and others Lord, Lord Wallace, said; and a focus on outcomes for in putting together consortia of suitable and willing independent schools to help co-sponsor new state-funded schools”. pupils. Although partnerships can have other benefits, such as helping a school to meet its charitable status On the basis of the ISC’s proposal, the cost to the and its public benefit test, the primary aim of partnership taxpayer would be £5,500 per child, roughly the amount must always be improvement in pupil outcomes. that state schools receive annually for a pupil. However, We live in a highly divided and immobile society. average private school fees are around £15,500, so Alan Milburn tells us that we live in the most socially funding would be subsidised by the private sector by immobile society in the developed world. As the Sutton around £80 million a year. That is a sizeable amount Trust has told us repeatedly, 7% of the population is to target at state-educated children and should not be educated privately and gets nearly 60% of the top jobs dismissed lightly, but it raises the question of just who in our country. As has already been mentioned, they would benefit from the plan. It sounds remarkably are massively overrepresented in sport, in our Olympians, similar to the assisted places scheme in the 1980s and in music and in many of the top professions. What is 1990s which required children to pass ability tests. As more, because those pupils have these top jobs when a result it did not help poor children so much as bright they grow up, they are much more likely to exercise children who happened to be poor. The ISC claimed their perfect right to send their own children to private that the scheme would be non-selective, but if so, how schools. It means that the vast majority of the people will children moving from the state sector to the at the top of our big employers in this country have no independent sector be chosen? Bright children tend to direct or indirect experience of the state sector at all. do well wherever they are educated, and creaming off This has undoubtedly contributed to a situation where, the top of the state sector, as grammar schools do, historically, our state sector has lagged behind, because achieves little more than those left behind being denied a considerable proportion of customers who would the benefit of learning beside and gaining from their more otherwise have been highly demanding, vociferous able classroom colleagues. That is why comprehensive and influential have been absent. education was introduced and despite its current problems, many of which I remind the Minister could be solved It cannot be right that we have such a divided by adequate funding, its benefits far outweigh the society. This is not just, or mainly, about money. It is disadvantages. about all of us—independent schools, universities and employers—doing more to build a much more integrated We recognise that the Independent Schools Council and united society, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has made meaningful proposals in this regard, but we said. That is why our consultation paper, Schools That remain sceptical about the contention that independent Work for Everyone, starts from the expectation that all schools can have much of a direct impact on standards children in England will have a good school place, and of education in state schools. Private schools are that the independent sector, among others, will play its academically successful largely because they educate full part in achieving our aim, both by improving the children of the wealthiest section of society who access to schools for those unable to pay full fees and have enormous social capital. Private schools can afford by widening its partnership activity. In the consultation to sustain small class sizes, have the benefit of substantial paper we put forward some suggestions as to how that resources to support their pupils’ education, and pay should be encouraged and achieved. We have had an staff salaries with which the state sector often cannot enthusiastic response. We will be publishing a full compete. There can be no comparison with the challenges analysis of responses and setting out the Government’s that state comprehensive schools face, particularly preferred way forward in the spring. I cannot anticipate those serving the most disadvantaged communities. what the document will say. However, I shall identify For that reason, while it is understandable that the some of the themes we intend to pick up from the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State believe responses. It is only right, however, that I acknowledge that the independent sector should be asked to justify the degree of partnership which is already taking place. GC 509 Maintained and Independent Schools[9 FEBRUARY 2017] Maintained and Independent Schools GC 510

What we include in the term “partnership” is very as my noble friend mentioned—about the partnership wide. At one end of the spectrum are small-scale work they do. The results of the 2017 census are not partnerships, sometimes fired by a single teacher’s yet available, but I imagine they will show a further enthusiasm, which might allow for pupils from a advance on the 1,100 ISC schools that in 2016 were in maintained school to take a subject otherwise unavailable. some form of partnership with the state sector. We funded start-up costs for several of these at primary As my noble friend Lord Lexden and the noble level in 2014-15. Many partnerships are much more Lord, Lord Watson, mentioned, the Charity Commission ambitious—for example, the wide-ranging and highly will have access to the ISC’s 2017 census data about impressive partnership I have seen for myself at King’s, the extent of partnerships later this year. These data Wimbledon. At the other end of the spectrum are will enable analysis of whether partnership activity initiatives which affect or create whole institutions—for has increased since the guidance was revised and example, the creation by Eton College of Holyport the Schools Together website was created. Before free school, which is partly boarding; the support by commissioning research, the Charity Commission will Brighton College of the London Academy of Excellence review its plans in the light of any changes made by in Newham, and now by Highgate for LAE 2 at the Government following their consultation on the Tottenham; and Harris Westminster. Only this morning document Schools that Work for Everyone. I visited Lancot Challenger Academy, Dunstable, in The partnership between state and independent the Challenger MAT. To champion character in the schools is alive and well. Some people have understandably state sector, it has been working with schools such as asked why, in that case, Schools that Work for Everyone the Royal Grammar School in Newcastle, Ashford not only asked independent schools to do more but School and Shrewsbury School to build capacity in suggested that if they do not various sanctions might this vital area of school life. Many academy sponsors, be deployed. to pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, are bringing many of the curricular and It is worth setting out some of the principles on extra-curricular practices of the independent sector to which we are considering responses and the best way their schools. forward. First, it remains our position—set out in debate last year on the charities and social investment As my noble friend Lord Lexden said, independent Bill—that a partnership works best when it is the schools provide many bursaries. I saw this myself result of genuine enthusiasm, co-operation and willingness when for many years I was a trustee of the Eastside on both sides, and meets needs on both sides. This Young Leaders Academy in Newham, an after-school means that in taking forward the consultation proposals, club looking after, at any one time, more than 100 black we are looking for ideas and responses that will encourage boys and now some girls right on the edge of exclusions and support partnership to make it grow in volume from school. We were approached by Patrick Derham, and effectiveness. Secondly, although many independent who was then the head of Rugby School, to take two schools are engaged, that is not always the case. We of our boys as boarders. We initially thought that this want to ensure that whatever system we arrive at was a bit of mission creep but we thought, why not? It brings pressure to bear on those schools that have the was a great success and the academy has now sent capacity and capability to do something but, for whatever more than 100 boys and girls to private schools around reason, do not see it as part of their role. Despite the the country. excellent work already going on and what my noble I am very keen to encourage local authorities to use friend Lord Lexden said, there clearly are schools that both independent and state boarding schools for pupils could do something or more but do not. The independent on the edge of care. We have an active programme charity sector enjoys many freedoms and privileges under way in the department, very ably run by Colin and it is only right that all schools within it should Morrison, called the Boarding School Partnerships. It recognise their wider obligations to society. encourages local authorities to do this because they Finally, my noble friend Lord Lexden said that can often be fully funded by bursaries. On the point of independent schools vary considerably in size and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, we have approved capabilities. We are naturally conscious that some nearly 50 new, special state schools, backed by good independent schools genuinely do not have the capacity sponsors under the free schools programme. to enter into useful partnership with a state school. As my noble friend Lord Lexden and the noble They may have poor standards or facilities or could be Lord, Lord Watson, have mentioned, so greatly has under regulatory action designed to improve them. the Independent/State Schools Partnership grown that It is right that such schools concentrate on putting it now has its own website. With seed corn funding, we their own house in order and we do not intend to do set up this website so that information on projects anything to push them into pointless partnership would spread and help generate further initiatives. As arrangements before they are ready. my noble friend has said, as of last week, the Schools In closing, I assure your Lordships that we want to Together website has nearly 1,600 projects on it. Although build on what has already been achieved and enable not all are involved in both state and independent the independent schools sector to play the greatest schools, we welcome them all. possiblerolethroughsensibleco-operationandpartnership, Each year,however,the Independent Schools Council so that we really do have schools that work for everyone. conducts its census and asks its member schools, which educate around 85% of pupils in the independent sector—although they are only about half the schools, Committee adjourned at 5.54 pm.