Second Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature

ufthe

I_.Jegislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Publi.\·hed wuler the authority of The Hmwurable George Hickes Speaker

Vol. LI No. 14- I :30 p.m., Wednesday, April 18, 2001 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature

Member Constituency Political A fliliation

AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.ll.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.I'. ASIITON, Steve, lion. Thompson N 1>1'. ASPER, Linda Riel N.l>l'. BARRETf, Becky, lion. Inkster N.I>.I'. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.IH'. CERILU, Marianne Radisson N.D 1'. CIIOMIAK, Dave, lion. Kildonan N.D.I'. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose PC'. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River I'.C. DERKACII, Leonard Russell I'.C. DEWAR. Gregory Selkirk N.D.!'. DOER, Gary,llon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood I'.C'. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, llarry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCIIOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, lion. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, lion. River Heights Lib. GILLESIIAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. IIELWER, Edward Gimli PC. IIICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.!'. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.I'. LATIILIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, lion. La Verendrye N.D.!'. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, lion. St. Johns N.IJ.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.!'. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.IJ.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, lion. Lord Roberts N.D.!'. MIIIYCIHJK, MaryAnn,lion. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park PC. NEVAKSIIONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER. Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet PC. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.!'. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, lion. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN. Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D P. SALE, Tim, lion. Fort Rouge N.D.!'. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.ll.P. SCIIELLENBERG, llarry Rossmere N.l>.l'. SCIIULER, Ron Springfield I'.C. SELINGER, Greg, lion. St. Boniface NDP SMITH. Joy Fort Garry I'.C'. SMITII, Scoll, lion. Brandon West N.I>P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.ll.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain PC. WOWC'IIlJK, Rosann, lion. Swan River NIH. 537

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, Apri118, 2001

The House met at 1:30 p.m. area are fa lling as a result of cool weather. Much snow remains in higher ground in the Dauphin PRAYERS area and Swan River area. A fast melt with some rain would create some flooding. This situation ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS will be watched very closely for the next several weeks. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS The Roseau River has crested, and no Flood Conditions fu rther difficulties are anticipated unless heavy rain develops. The Souris River is presently Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of cresting at levels significantly lower than in Conservation): I have a statement to make to 1999. Low-lying areas are flooded from the the House. international boundary through Hartney. Flooding from Melita to Hartney should end I have the latest update here. Levels of the within a few weeks, but flooding at Coulter will Red River from Emerson to Morris rose one last through much of May. The crest on the third to one half a foot since yesterday. There Pembina River is approaching La Riviere today. was little rise from St. Adolphe to the floodway Minor flooding of the valley from Swan Lake to inlet due to lowering of the gates of the Windygates will continue fo r the next 10 days or floodway structure. The fo recast for the Red so. Flooding from Rock Lake to Swan Lake will River remains unchanged although some minor continue until mid-May based on average adjustments have been made at St. Adolphe and weather conditions. Levels of the Whitemud Ste. Agathe. Further rises should be less than River at Westbourne and the Fisher River at two fe et. Peguis continue to fall. Overland flooding has subsided in the St. Laurent area but continues in A minor closure in the Emerson-Noyes area the Ashern area. The weather outlook is still will commence later today. It is unlikely that quite favourable although some precipitation is closures will be required in other towns or that fo recast over portions of the Red River Valley PTH 75 will be closed. Levels of the Assiniboine from Morris to Grand Forks late Thursday to River rose in the Baie St. Paul area overnight Friday. At the present time it appears that due to increased flows coming from Portage la rainfall will not be heavy enough to have a Prairie. Flows in the lower Assiniboine are being significant effe ct on the flood situation. increased as the risk of ice jamming is now minimal. The reduced flows in the Portage Diversion will help ease the pressure on Lake Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba which has risen from 811.9 to 112.2 thank the Minister of Conservation fo r that fe et. Outflows at Fairford Dam will be increased statement, and of course the best thing about the from 1000 to 3000 cfs tomorrow. This should be story that he is sharing with the Legislature is enough to keep the lake from rising above 812.4 that levels are down, levels are down, levels are fe et. down, that the impact of potential flooding is minimizing each and every day. Of course, that In 1996 and 1997 the lake rose close to 813 is the good news and I think that everybody feet. Levels of the Assiniboine River are falling throughout the entire Red River Valley is from Millwood to Brandon as a result of cool certainly much more relaxed now with respect to weather on the Easter weekend. Rises will any kind of potential flood threat. There are the resume next weekend as a result of renewed spots along the Whitemud, in the St. Laurent melt, but serious flooding is not expected unless area and I understand in the Ashern area that of heavy rain develops. Streams in the Dauphin course are trouble spots yet, but they are also 538 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 I

having a positive downward effect, so those 200, and that the same be now received and read threats would also be minimized. a first time.

Of course, I also would like to, with my Mr. Schuler: have the privilege of opportunity here to respond to this statement, representing the residents of the Springfield register the concern that we do need to move constituency. My constituency encompasses the quickly on the floodproofing fo r the R.M. of Springfield and the R.M. of East St. communities in the valley, to make sure those Paul. Both rural municipalities fe el that it is time projects are finished and that those communities fo r both R.M.s to be reflected in the name of my are protected fo r the fu ture, and I think it also constituency. I ask this House to give careful demonstrates too that as a province we should consideration to this bill, and when the time also be looking and investigating and working comes give it your support. Thank you. towards an overall water management policy fo r the province of Manitoba. So I thank the Motion agreed to. minister for his statement and the reassurance that the flood is indeed minimizing. Thank you. Introduction of Guests

* (13:35) Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable TABLING OF REPORTS members to the public gallery where we have from Nelson Macintyre Collegiate 25 Grade 9 Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table the 1999 students under the direction of Mr. Andrew Annual Report of the Provincial Ombudsman Micklefield. This school is located in the with respect to The Freedom of Information and constituency of the honourable Minister of Protection of Privacy Act and The Personal Finance (Mr. Selinger). Health Information Act. Also, in the gallery we have from Maples Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Collegiate 18 Grade 9 students under the Conservation): I am pleased to table the 1999- direction of Mrs. Roberta Garton. This school is 2000 Annual Report of the Manitoba Round located in the constituency of the honourable Table for Sustainable Development and the Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub). Five-year Report to the Legislature of the Ecological Reserves, April I, '94 to March 31, Also, I would like to draw the attention of '99. all honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us Jim Ernst, the fo rmer INTRODUCTION OF BILLS member of Charleswood.

Bill 200-The Electoral Divisions On behalf of all honourable members, I Amendment Act welcome you here today.

Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I move, ORAL QUESTION PERIOD seconded by the honourable member for Beausejour, that leave be given to introduce Bill Budget 200, The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act Business Incentives (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ies circonscriptions electorales), and that the same be now received Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official and read a first time. Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last week the Calgary Herald was running stories about how Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the aggressive Alberta is trying to court Manitoba honourable Member fo r Springfield (Mr. businesses to their province. In fact, after Schuler), and a correction, seconded by the hearing about the disappointment that Brett­ honourable Member fo r Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Young Seeds expressed about this Government's Praznik), that leave be given to introduce Bill Budget and their failure to provide meaningful April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 539 tax relief, the mayor of a small town near and health at the same time, including his NDP Calgary has gone fu ll speed ahead to lure friends next door in Saskatchewan. business to her community. Not only has she called officials at Brett-Young Seeds about As businesses are leaving, Mr. Speaker, he relocating to Olds, Alberta, but she is also refuses to accept that reality. Even more startling organizing conference calls amongst the board and disappointing is that he refuses to do of directors. She is also planning a trip here to anything to prevent our businesses from leaving personally meet with the people from Brett­ or anything to encourage them to stay here. young Seeds. In Manitoba, by refusing to provide meaningful tax relief and by failing to Mr. Speaker, in that Calgary Herald story keep our province competitive, this Premier is Brett-Young Seeds President Tim Dyck is building a one-way road out of Manitoba. quoted as calling the Premier's Budget anti­ business. He is quoted as saying that he met Could the Premier please tell Manitobans: with tax accountants who agreed with him that What is his plan to keep businesses like Brett­ there was nothing in the Premier's Budget to young Seeds, who have already stated, they keep them in Manitoba. The Premier made the have already stated, Mr. Speaker, that there is choice not to provide meaningful tax relief, and nothing in this Budget to keep them here, from he made the choice to make our province moving to lower-tax, better-position provinces uncompetitive. like Ontario and Alberta? Mr. Speaker, will the Premier please tell this * (13:40) House why he has not offered Manitobans meaningful tax relief and why he is going in a Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, in the completely diffe rent direction than the rest of the articles dealing with the company named by the country? member opposite, the CEO mentioned that these issues had been raised over the last four years. I Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, last week I would certainly understand that in 18 months we quoted CIBC, the world's bank operation fo r that cannot undo everything that the previous operation, with the analysis of the Budget. I governmenthas done. further quoted Nesbitt Burns. I have a furtherset of analysis prepared by accountants BOO who Mr. Speaker, I met with a couple of CEOs talk about the Budget being good news fo r from Alberta companies myself just recently. individuals and corporations who both received One of them was the CEO of a company from a tax cut. Albchem moving from Alberta to Virden, Manitoba, based on the cheap hydro-electric Mr. Speaker, I noticed in the Tory platform rates. Another CEO was coming in from there was nothing about corporate income taxes. Calgary looking at the expansion opportunities I notice that the corporate income tax reduction of Nexen, looking at Alberta, looking at made by the Minister of Finance were the first Houston, and looking at Brandon, Manitoba, and ones made in Manitoba since the Second World they have decided to put their $60 million into War. Are they perfect? Nothing is perfect, but it Brandon. Those are real successes. I would ask is certainly a lot more than what they promised the member to be much more positive and and certainly a tremendous amount more than optimistic rather than negative and gloomy in they ever delivered when they were in this Chamber. government.

Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, once again the * (13:45) Premier seems to realize and failed to realize that he is taking this province in a completely Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Premier different direction than the rest of Canada. The likes to talk so proudly of his meagre tax cut in other provinces are finding ways to make their personal income tax, but he wants to quote the provinces more competitive by providing tax CIBC. Could I quote a Manitoban who said: We incentives and findingways to support education have to do $10 million more in sales in Manitoba 540 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

to realize the same profit we would make if we We promised in the election campaign to were in Alberta? That is a Manitoban speaking. reduce the property taxes by increasing the property tax credit, something members opposite Mr. Speaker, in addition, the Calgary call a spending increase. Most people when they Herald article of the CEO of Brett-Young Seeds see their property tax bill will see a tax decrease said this Government's idea of a tax break, a of $75, building on last year's tax decrease of decrease of one quarter of I percent in corporate another $75. taxes just does not cut it. He said, and I quote: It does not appear that tax competitiveness is an We promised to cut tmtwn fe es, because issue in this province. when you talk about a learning society, an educated society, making post-secondary Today the Province put out a news release education affordable fo r our young people is part with the headline: Tax cuts brewing for of our economic strategy, not having the Manitoba business. Engineering roof leaking as we had with the fo rmer government. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. We also said and we also delivered on more than we had promised by reducing income taxes, Mr. Murray: Will they be applauding the same raising the threshold fo r small business and way when Brett-Young Seeds picks up and reducing corporate income taxes. By all moves? evaluations, we have not only kept our promises, we have exceeded our promises. Brett-Young Something is brewing fo r Manitoba business Seeds was talking about this issue, as they have all right, but it is brewing in other provinces. It is been quoted, fo ur years ago in the newspaper. going to take more and more business away We are going to keep our promises to the people from Manitoba. of Manitoba, and we are right on target for exceeding those promises. In light of the fact that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) * (13:50) noted in her news release today that they supposedly recognize the tax relief measures in other provinces are an effective way to stimulate Budget job creation and economic growth, will the Business Incentives Premier please advise the House and all Manitobans when his Government will start Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): The Business providing meaningfu l tax relief in Manitoba to Council of Manitoba advised the Doer allow the same to happen here? government that they had serious concerns about Manitoba's relatively sluggish economic growth Mr. Doer: I would challenge the member rate. According to the Royal Bank's provincial opposite to take the corporate income tax, go and sectoral outlook fo r the spring of 2001, from 17 percent of tax to 15 percent of tax and Manitoba's real gross domestic product will lag come out with the same conclusion that he has behind every province in Canada except B.C. just purported to have in the Legislature. and Prince Edward Island and will be well below the Canadian average. We intend on being truthful with the people of Manitoba, being straightforward with the Why in their Budget did the Doer people of Manitoba and keeping our promises to government choose to ignore these warnings by the people of Manitoba. I recall the ghosts of sending the message to investors, employees and Tory governments past where they promised to business that Manitoba is the highest-taxed eliminate the payroll tax in fo ur years. But you jurisdiction outside of Quebec instead of know what, they just did not tell us which fo ur outlining a plan to lift Manitoba out of the GOP years. Maybe it is 2015 and 2016. basement it currently finds itself in? April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 541

Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): and the housing sector in particular is still weak, There are many economic fo recasts, and what while non-residential investment in Manitoba is we do is we take the seven fr om the Conference anemic. Board of Canada and the six major banks and come up with an average, and then go off their Why would the Doer government refuse to number at a real growth rate of 2.4 percent. offe r meaningful tax relief to Manitobans, the According to The Globe and Mail on the kind of tax relief that would allow them to weekend, this moves us into the middle of the purchase the goods and services offered by the pack fo r provinces next year and even though we province's business community? Why not now? do not grow as fast as some of the hothouse provinces in the good years, we do not seem to Mr. Selinger: There is something anemic in this slow down as much as some of the other House, Mr. Speaker, but it is not the economy of provinces in the bad years. We tend to have a Manitoba or the direction this Government is fairly stable and diverse economy, and that will taking. stand us in good stead in the time fo rward. What we have done to reposition Manitoba Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting fo r the future is to take a comprehensive that everybody is downgrading Manitoba's approach to making sure Manitoba will have a growth rate. prosperous future. This is a government that put $40 million into the Budget to expand the Tax Rates floodway, something no other government would do since 1997 when we had the Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would ask tremendous scare we had. This is a government the Minister of Finance, with the U.S. that put more money in the Budget for high-tech accounting for almost 80 percent of our exports, skill training fo r the aviation industry, something what is the Minister of Finance's plan to ensure the other government had not done in the past. that the economic slowdown south of the border This is a government that has put money in the that we are seeing right now does not have a Budget fo r strategic investments in the health significant negative economic impact on care system. This is a governmentthat has a very Manitoba? favourable R & D tax credit for the future and has used its resources in Manitoba, including its Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Crown resources, to make sure that we can Speaker, when you take a look at the plan we attract business and industry for the future. have in our Budget to make sure that Manitoba is well positioned fo r the future, when you see Healthy Baby Initiative what we have done for education tuition fe es, Accountability when you see what we have done to expand college opportunities for young people, when Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): you see what we have done to reduce the small Yesterday, the Doer government, when business tax rate by 3 7.5 percent and increase announcing the Prenatal Benefit program had its the threshold by 50 percent, when you see what heart in the right place, I must say, Mr. Speaker, we have done to reduce corporate tax rates for but its head in the sand by virtually gutting the the first time since the Second World War, when Women and Infant Nutrition program that had in you see what we have done on personal income place measures of accountability and taxes to reduce them by 10.5 percent and then requirements fo r participating in nutritional and strategic investments in education and health, parenting programs. you know we are well positioned for the future.

Mr. Loewen: If the minister really believes that, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Family I would ask him why he raised income taxes and Services indicate whether he has incorporated why he did not provide tax relief until next year any measure of accountability or personal instead of this year. I quote fr om the Royal responsibility into the Healthy Baby program to Bank's 2001 Spring Report: consumer spending ensure that the money, and it is very important, 542 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

is put towards fe eding morns and babies in the We have had the opportunity in the last year province of Manitoba? to work with a woman who worked very closely with the CAPC program. I am sure the member * (13:55) opposite is aware of that. We have designed this Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services program in close collaboration with CAPC. We and Housing): I am delighted that the are expanding our WIN sites, expanding the Opposition supports the principle of the reach of the WIN program so that it will become program, but they cannot quite bring themselves a Healthy Baby program and not simply a to support poor women. I am really sorry about program targeted at one small group of low­ that. income Manitobans, but all working-poor Manitobans. All low-income people who receive About 5200 women in Manitoba each year the National Child Benefit supplement fr om the will enjoy the support prenatally that Dr. Brian fe deral government will be entitled to receive the Postl called fo r and 20 other studies of early same supplement prenatally fr om our intervention have called fo r, started in the 1950s Government, Mr. Speaker. in the Montreal Diet Dispensary by Agnes Higgins. These are programs that around the world have proven that if you spend a dollar now We are delighted that we have an integrated you save anywhere fr om two to eight later. program now that Manitoba fam ilies with $32,000 or less net income, line 236 of the The member wonders about accountability. income tax fo rm, can benefit fr om that support, Every time a Manitoba woman applies fo r this because to fe ed a growing child in the womb to benefit she will apply through her doctor or her prepare fo r birth is an expensive process- midwife's confirmation of her pregnancy. Every single woman will be contacted by our programs Mr. Speaker: Order. and offered support. Because Manitoba women will make good choices, we trust them to make Reserves-ServiceDelivery good choices, they will respond to the offers of program involvement. We believe in Manitoba Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Can the women. We do not think you have to take a stick Minister of Family Services clarify fo r all and beat them like the Opposition does. Manitobans whether in fact, when this program is extended onto reserves, the cheques will be Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, it all sounds written to the women directly, or will the money wonderful on paper and corning out of this be flowed through the band councils, and will minister's mouth, but the proof will be in the they be determining which morns andbabes will outcomes that we see as a result of the receive the benefit and which ones will not? programming. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services Reserves-Service Duplication and Housing): That is a very important question and I thank the member fo r it. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Can the Minister of Family Services indicate or explain All women who apply fo r the benefit will why his Government is duplicating the fe deral have the cheque in their name to them because program, the Canada nutrition program already they are the recipients. They will use the money in place, by extending these services on fo r the best interests of themselves and their reserves? Is it a duplication and an overlap of the children. same program that Canada has in place?

Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services Circuit Court System and Housing): I am delighted that our Closures Government is offering support to all children. Babies are babies are babies; morns are morns Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, are morns, and we are glad that is something we I have a question fo r the Minister of Justice. are making available. Unfortunately, rural communities in western April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 543

Manitoba are once again fe eling the impact of Mr. Mackintosh: I do not understand the this Government's mismanagement of issues as member's question in terms of cuts. There they relate to services to people in these certainly have been no cuts. Indeed, in the 18 communities. I obtained a memo fr om the months since we have been in Government, we Provincial Court of Manitoba stating that as of have appointed fo ur new judges and it is my May I, courts in Rossburn, Boissevain, understanding that we now have a record level Minnedosa, Russell, Killarney, Virden, Neepawa of full-time judges in the province of Manitoba. and Waywayseecappo will be canc elled until This is a matter of co-ordinating schedules fu rther notice. across the province, which is the responsibility of the Chief Judge to manage. It is my I ask the minister: Would he please confirm understanding that she now has a new proposal this decision has been taken by the Provincial she will be bringing to her counterpart, to the Court and indicate what hardships and delays Associate Chief Judge in Brandon, to deal with residents of these communities are going to fe el this challenge. as a result of this change?

* (14:00) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I heard the Minister of Justice say there are no cuts. Can the minister Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice then explain why, even though the Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, access of Minister's budget over the course of two years all Manitobans to the justice system is very has increased by 12.4 percent, there has been a important to this Government. I can assure the cut in the courts of 2.3 percent in this last member opposite that as a result of an Budget? unfortunate coincidence of the illness of two judges in Brandon there is a need to do some Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, if the member rescheduling in the Provincial Court system. wants to pursue particular lines in the Budget, we can look at that in Estimates. As the member The member I am sure knows that the should know, he cannot stand up in this House scheduling issues are dealt with by the Chief with his colleagues and cry more tax cuts, more Judge of the Provincial Court. It is not done by tax cuts, more tax cuts and then find some item the Government. However, I can advise the in the Budget he is not happy with and get up. member that the Government does determine He cannothave it both ways, but I can assure the where circuit courts are located, and there has member that this Government is committed to been no change in direction at all. It is very ensuring all Manitobans have access to our important that the circuit courts maintain their justice system and there will be no reduction in current locations. the location of circuit courts.

I also can advise the member that, according to the Chief Judge, she now has a new proposal Circuit Court System to deal with the Brandon judge issue. She will be Closures dealing in concert with the Associate Chief Judge in Brandon to rejig what I understand Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. were some tentative plans. Speaker, this is unbelievable today that this Minister of Justice is trying to deal with a Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, all I have in my serious problem in our court system by saying hand is the memo that was sent out by the that there are no cuts. In this particular Budget, Provincial Court, and the memo cites "serious he has reduced the budget fo r courts by 2.3 backlogs in Winnipeg and a shortage of judges" percent when his own departmental spending is as reasons fo r cuts. The Associate Chief Judge up by over 2. 7 percent. So courts are obviously Brian Giesbrecht states there is no extra capacity not a priority with him. in the system. I want to ask this Minister of Justice, when Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister he says simply that it is a scheduling matter, why of Justice what impact these cuts will have to the Associate Chief Judge Giesbrecht says very dockets in other Manitoba communities as well? clearly that there is a serious backlog in 544 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

Winnipeg and this is purely because this have no judges, as those court dockets are Government refuses to appoint the judges that reduced, will his Crown attorneys be plea are needed to do the job fo r Manitobans. Why is bargaining in order to ensure that at least there is that, Mr. Speaker? some semblance of justice? What does he say to the McLaughlin fam ily? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am very Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I have answered pleased that the Opposition is interested in this the general question in my previous answer, but issue of backlogs, unlike when they were in I find an extraordinary question now coming government. fr om the Opposition. The member knows fu ll well the sub judice convention, which of course It was under the fo rmer government that the is designed specifically fo r matters currently prosecution service in this province did not have before the court, and he knows fu ll well that this the support they needed to protect the safety of matter is going to sentencing. I say shame. Manitobans. As a result of an independent review by Ernst and Young, we now are taking action on that. We are going to make sure that Maintenance Enforcement Office our prosecutors are out of the coffee room, are The Pas-Payment Processing out of the file room and are in the courtroom to help to reduce backlogs. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is fo r the Minister of Court System Justice. It concerns the administration of his Plea Bargaining department in the context of the recent Budget with its emphasis on increased expenditures and Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. lower quality service in a whole variety of areas. Speaker, I want to ask the minister, although he has increased significantly that part of his In The Pas, fo r many years, the court office budget, he has reduced the budget fo r courts. I has collected and distributed the child support want to ask him then if it will be the policy of payments through the Maintenance Enforcement his Crown prosecutors to increase plea Program in a way that allows one parent to drop bargaining in order to keep trials down and to off the cheque on the one day and the same day keep people out of the courts? Will this minister fo r the other parent, the ex-spouse, to pick it up be using plea bargains in order to reduce the so that you have excellent service and it happens demand on a court system he is depleting? immediately. Why, I ask the Minister of Justice, is he changing the delivery of this program so Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice that the fathers' cheques will have to go to and Attorney General): Unlike under the Winnipeg and the mother will not receive the fo rmer government, Mr. Speaker, we certainly payment for probably about two weeks, giving have no plans to do anything of the sort, and poorer quality and higher costs? unlike as the Ernst and Young report fo und that the pressures on prosecutions resulted perhaps in Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice some cases not being appealed when they should and Attorney General): Perhaps the member have, our plans are to ensure that prosecutors should review the experience of maintenance have the supports fr om this Government to do enforcement collection in this province, the the job that they want to do. recent experience under the fo rmer government, when he gets up so quickly to judge the changes Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I would like to know that are needed in collecting child support. There what this Minister of Justice says to the is no more debt owing that is more important McLaughlin family, whose son was beaten to than child support. That is why we are taking a death in our province and fo r which Crown comprehensive approach to changing the way attorneys plea bargained a second degree murder that the maintenance enforcement system charge to manslaughter. Is this indicative of operates. We are changing the legal tools what will be happening in our courts? As we available to collect that support. April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 545

Mr. Speaker, what has happened under the Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): fo rmer government is that there was a disjointed J'aimerais dire merci au depute de River Heights. administration of maintenance enforcement in Dans notre budget on a donne plus de services this province that was not serving the needs of essentiels aux communautes qui en ont besoin. those mothers and children who depend on this On a depense notre budget dans les domaines support. prioritaires des residents, des citoyens et citoyennes du Manitoba, surtout dans le nord du Manitoba. <;a inclut bien sur Le Pas, Thompson, The Pas-Relocation Flin Flon et toutes les autres communautes du nord de Manitoba et bien sur les communautes Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My de Winnipeg, a l'exterieur, a la campagne et le supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister sud aussi. C'est le premier budget depuis of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin). I ask the minister longtemps qui inclut les besoins de taus les why he is fa iling to protect the interests of his Manitobains. constituents from the empire building of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Ashton), who Translation has been successful in moving the files and the administration of the Maintenance Enforcement I would like to thank the Member for River Program fr om The Pas to Thompson, so that Heights. In our Budget we have increased people in The Pas will have to drive fo ur hours essential services to the communities that need to Thompson and fo ur hours back in order to get them. We have spent our Budget in the priority service, instead of having it locally. areas of residents, of the citizens of Manitoba, particularly in the north of Manitoba. That of Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice course includes The Pas, Thompson, Flin Flon and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the and all the other northern communities of member opposite should be as concerned as I Manitoba, and of course the communities of know the Member fo r The Pas is in the well­ Winnipeg, its environs and the rural and being of children and the mothers of those southern areas as well. It is the firstBudget in a children in his community who rely on child long time that includes the needs of all support payments and who have to have a more Manitobans. effective way of supporting than what we saw under the fo rmer government. Budget Cultural Industries * (14:10) Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Budget Recently comments have been made about a film Depenses et Services being shot in Minnedosa. I am really pleased to say that there are also parts of a film being shot Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Ma in my own constituency in one of the older question supplementaire au mmtstre des buildings. My question is directed to the Finances: Pourquoi, je demande au ministre, Minister of Culture, Heritage. votre budget et votre gouvernement donnent-ils un gouvernement avec plus de depenses que The Budget mentions support for new necessaire, et mains de services? media. Can the minister please explain why our Government is giving increased attention to the Translation cultural industries sector?

My supplementary question to the Minister of Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Finance: Why, I ask the minister, do your Heritage and Tourism): I would like to thank Budget and your Government create a the Member fo r St. James for her question. I government with more expenditures than know the members opposite are very interested necessary, and fewer services? in this sector because it continues to be one of 546 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprill8, 2001

the fa stest growing economic as well as job We will be having a tenant annual meeting creation sectors in the country. in June in Gilbert Park. Hopefully, they will elect a representative board and we can get back We, as a government, want to ensure that to work with that new board, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba's participation in this expanding sector and global industry does not lag behind other Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the provinces. I know that Manitoba's artistic minister: Is he working fo r the tenants of Gilbert community, whose creative energies drive the Park or fo r the special interest groups that serve cultural industries sector, is recognized the Doer government that disagree with the worldwide for its innovation and excellence. So association's policy of hiring community and we want to retain our talented, artistic tenants fo r the maintenance and the upkeep fo r community in the province of Manitoba. We are this public housing complex? Is that the reason very pleased with the Budget, and they are very behind why he has pulled the funding on this pleased with the Budget, as well, with regard to group that was working very successfully our support of this industry. Thank you. without any problems or disagreements fr om the Gilbert Park Tenants' Association tenants? This was totally within their own Funding department fo r the pulling of this funding.

Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Sale: No, Mr. Speaker. the philosophy of tenant self-management in public housing has brought stability, community Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, will this mm1ster involvement, empowerment to tenants, and a meet with the Tenants' Association of Gilbert low vacancy rate in Gilbert Park complex. The Park and explain to them exactly why he pulled success of the Gilbert Park Tenants' Association the funding on this and also present them with should be undeniable, even to this minister. the petition that he says is behind their willingness to take the funding away fr om this How does the Minister of Family Services group? Will he meet with the Tenants' and Housing justify his elimination of the Association and clarify their position with the funding to the Gilbert Park Tenants' Association Government? as of March 31, 200 I? Mr. Sale: Our staff has met repeatedly with the Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services two remaining members of that board. The other and Housing): Mr. Speaker, our Government member does not live in the project anymore, so supports the notion of self-management. We there are only two left on the board. We have have over 17 000 units of housing in our worked to ensure that the more than 50 percent department which are managed by community of the tenants who signed a petition opposing the groups, and we are very pleased with the current board and offering a great number of management services that those groups provide. concerns about the current board's policy will The policy of self-management does not always have a chance at an annual meeting that is fai r mean that the actual effect of it is as beneficial as and fr ee to elect a board, perhaps including some we would want. of the existing members, Mr. Speaker. We will work with that board, as we have worked with The current Government, fo r example, we boards in the past and will in the future, to are working with Lord Selkirk Park towards self­ achieve effective tenant self-management. management through a $145,000 grant fr om the Winnipeg Development Agreement to help those East St. Paul tenants move to self-management. However, in High Voltage Hydro Lines Gilbert Park the experience over the last couple of years has not been as positive, and it was the belief of this Government that you have to be a Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, careful steward with public fu nds. You have to last night the Minister of Hydro did not find it spend those funds to get effective results. We important enough to attend the East St. Paul were not getting the results. meeting where over 250 residents participated. April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 547

Can the Minister of Hydro explain why the We went the next step and asked the Clean families of East St. Paul were not allowed to Environment Commission to hold an attend the meeting held by his whitewashed independent review of the literature, of the Clean Environment Commission, or would that research that has been done on this very have been a waste of time as the answer was important topic. Their independent review, prepared before the questions were asked? reflected in a consensus statement, signed by our public health officials in Manitoba, including Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with experts in CancerCare here in Manitoba, the administration of The Manitoba Hydro indicates that they do not see any association. Act): Well, first of all, the Clean Environment Commission prepared a report and developed a The preponderance of evidence now consensus statement, which has been endorsed indicates that there is not a cancer risk here, and by Dr. Margaret Fast and by Dr. Jim Popplow, I ask the member opposite when he will both of Manitoba Public Health; Dr. Harry communicate that information to his residents Johnson, the department head of imaging rather than the scurrilous information he physics and radiation protection of CancerCare provided them last night. in Manitoba. This consensus statement was made available to the residents. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, on a point of order? The Clean Environment Commission had tried to organize a meeting with the residents for Point of Order April 11. The residents cancelled that meeting. I am informed today that the residents have again Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House contacted the Clean Environment Commission, Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. One and they are looking at setting up a meeting should choose their words very carefully in this towards the end of April. House, and I would only hope that the Minister of Finance would choose name-calling that I think it is very important that the residents would not render upon him. in that area get accurate information about the risks that are not going to be visited upon them Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government by these hydro lines and have accurate House Leader, on the same point of order. information, because there has been a lot of fe ar mongering going on here which does not serve Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House the public interest. Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that that particular word that is being referred to has been * (14:20) accepted in this House on an ongoing basis. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Opposition House Leader, on the same point of Hydro do the courageous thing and hold an open order? meeting with all the residents of my community? Will he listen to their concerns about his Mr. Laurendeau: On the same point of order, doubling the power towers in East St. Paul? Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 492: "The fo llowing expressions are a partial listing of expressions Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, this project was which have caused intervention" by the Chair, initiated by the fo rmer government, and the and the word "scurrilous" is in there. fo rmer Minister of Hydro was not prepared to do anything over and above the environmental Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all impact review being done by the Department of honourable members that a point of order and Conservation. That environmental review came matters of privilege are very serious matters. I back without any concerns about the project would ask the co-operation of all honourable going ahead. members, please. 548 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

On the point of order raised by the to some of our Government's many initiatives in honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I health care, in particular this Government's most thank all members fo r their advice. I will take recent investment in state-of-the-art medical and the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard diagnostic equipment. and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. Mr. Speaker, as part of our commitment to enhancing the quality of health care in this *** province, our Government will be investing over $22 million in diagnostic equipment that is Mr. Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has critical to providing effective and accessible expired. health care services to our citizens. This funding will be used to install a new MRI machine at MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Health Sciences Centre and to purchase three new CT scanners fo r fa cilities in The Pas, Farm and Food Days Steinbach and Selkirk. This funding is a Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I rise significant step towards addressing a decade­ today to put a few words on the record about the long diagnostic equipment deficit. Heart of the Continent Farm and Food Days that will be held July 26-28, 2001, at the Red River The new CT scanner slated fo r Selkirk Exhibition Park. Sponsored by the Valley General will have many positive effects fo r Agricultural Society and the Red River residents of both the Interlake and the Northeast Exhibition Association, last year's first-time Regional Health Authorities as it will enhance event was designed to promote agriculture and to services for a whole range of illness and injuries. increase awareness of agriculture and food Mr. Speaker, as well, the Selkirk Hospital will production in Manitoba. Farm and Food Days be receiving an additional ultrasound unit to provided an important opportunity fo r all handle increased demand. Manitobans to learn a bit more about this province's agricultural industry. Mr. Speaker, it is estimated that there were 5000 individuals in the Interlake and Eastman The Winnipeg-area setting made it possible Health Authorities that are making this trip to fo r a large number of school groups to visit Farm Winnipeg each year fo r a CT scan. The new and Food Days .. Students had the chance to see equipment in Selkirk will make a big difference first-hand the many types of equipment being fo r our region as we will have these tests that we used on Manitoba fa rms. They also spent time in need in the comfort and convenience of our a barn and learned more about how cattle, hogs, community. horses and poultry are raised as well as some of the more exotic creatures. It was encouraging to I want to congratulate the Minister of Health see that many people fr om across the province (Mr. Chomiak) fo r taking this very positive step. came out in support of our agricultural Thank you. community and to learn more about this diverse industry. * (14:30)

I would like to thank all those involved in SpendingffaxCuts Ratio-Budget seeing the inaugural Farm and Food Days through to fruition and look fo rward to this event Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): While my this year being even bigger and better in 2001. colleagues and I have expressed concern over Remember the dates, July 26 to 28, 2001. Thank the amount of new spending in relation to the you, Mr. Speaker. amount of new tax reductions in the 200 I Budget, the ratio determined to be 6 to 1, Health Care Initiatives members opposite have accused us of miscalculating these numbers and claim that Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): It is indeed a spending only outweighs tax reductions by a great pleasure that I rise today to bring attention ratio of 3 to I. April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 549

Mr. Speaker, I would like to read fr om a campus will be training fo r careers in recent news release fr om the Canadian information technology and media sciences, Taxpayers Federation. these being a perfect fit fo r the emerging businesses that are already developing in the "A recent 'Fast Facts' release fr om Manitoba Exchange District. Finance is playing fa st and loose with the truth by circulating inaccurate information on the ratio The new downtown campus is one of the of program expenditures to tax cuts outlined in most exciting developments to take place in the the 2001 Manitoba Budget. Exchange District in many years. When coupled with our Manitoba Bursary Program, the first "'The government's 3:1 spending to tax cuts since 1992, and the 10% tuition reduction ratio is off by a country mile,' noted Victor realized by students last year and renewed again Vrsnik, CTF provincial director. The Finance for this upcoming school year, we are making Department misrepresents the equation by progress and fighting the legacy of chronically including tax cuts announced from last year low college enrolment left by the previous without balancing the equation with new government. spending increases fr om last year as well. We are committed to providing the support "According to the provincial government's that students need to succeed and are pleased to 'summary of 2001 tax measures' and their see work being done on this new campus 'operating expenditure estimates,' outlined in the expected to be receiving its first students by the 2001 Manitoba Budget, the Canadian Taxpayers year 2002. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Federation estimates that the new expenditure to new tax cuts ratio is 6:1." Maintenance Enforcement Office Mr. Speaker, the numbers we have used to express our concerns are not only accurate but Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. are echoed by independent agencies and Speaker, I rise to speak on an important issue in independent examinations of this Government's The Pas. Since the inception of the Maintenance 2001 Budget. It appears as though it is the Doer Enforcement Program in Manitoba, the court governmentthat has been involved in some very office in The Pas has collected and distributed creative mathematics. Thank you. child support through the program. People living in The Pas who were required to pay child Red River College Expansion support could go down to the court office and pay the support. The court office would receipt it Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr. Speaker, today I and then either mail it out or hold it fo r the payee would like to inform members of this Assembly to pick up. Very often, men would pay their that work has begun on the construction of the support on the same day that the women would Red River College expansion. This $31.5- pick it up; thus, no delay was experienced by the million investment on Princess Street is an women and children relying on this service. important part of this Government's strategy to enhance the education and training opportunities The legal profession has recently been available to our young people. One of our key informed that all the files under this program are commitments to Manitobans is to restore hope being moved to Thompson. Men can still come and bring new opportunities to the young people to The Pas court office to pay the support, but of Manitoba. the staff are directed to fo rward the support payment to Winnipeg. Apparently, the cheques The new campus fo r Red River College is a will then be mailed to women in The Pas area key part of this plan. This new campus will fr om Winnipeg so that there will be quite a fo cus on information technology, media studies, delay. The files are being transferred to and other disciplines related to the new Thompson to be administered fr om there so that economy. The 2000 students and 200 faculty people in The Pas can travel four hours there and that will be housed in the new Red River College fo ur hours back if they need service. 550 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

As you can appreciate, Mr. Speaker, this Mr. Speaker: It h� been announced that, new system will result in lengthy delays fo r instead of meeting this evening at 6:30, the women living in the area. Their ex-spouses will Standing Committee on Agriculture will meet have paid the support on time, but they will be today at 5 p.m. to discuss organizational aspects unable to receive the support until it is processed of the committee's consideration of the through an office in Winnipeg. The most agricultural resolution. frustrating thing about the new NDP system is that the old one was working quite well on a Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House local level. The public, who the system was Leader): Mr. Speaker, on House business I designed to serve, was able to go to the court think, fo r the sake of the public, it should be office in The Pas and speak to the designated made aware to the public that there will be no enforcement officer if there were any problems. public representations at this meeting, that this is Under the new system, women will be given a strictly a meeting to establish the ground rules of toll-free number in Winnipeg to call, and what the committee will be doing. experience with this number suggests that there will be lengthy delays. Mr. Speaker: For the public's information, this meeting at 5 p.m. is an organizational meeting The local bar was never consulted about the and is not open to the public. change. The women who rely on the service were never consulted. There are extra expenses For clarification, the meeting at 5 p.m. will because of eight new positions in Winnipeg and be open to the public, but the public will not two in Thompson. What an example of poor have the opportunity to participate. It is an service and higher costs. organizational meeting by the committee members only. ORDERS OF THE DAY Mr. Mackintosh: Further to this business, I House Business wonder if there is leave of the House not to call quorum between five and six this afternoon in Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House light of the standing committee meeting Leader): Mr. Speaker, on House business, I simultaneously. would like to ask the House fo r unanimous consent fo r the Standing Committee on Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement of the House Agriculture to meet concurrently with the House between five and six that no quorum count will this afternoon. be entertained or called fo r? Agreed? [A greed]

Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for BUDGET DEBATE the Standing Committee on Agriculture to meet (Fourth Day of Debate) this afternoon? [A greed] Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would like to honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) announce that instead- and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. in amendment thereto, and the debate remains open. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult to hear. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the privilege of putting a Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would like to fe w comments on the record regarding the announce that, instead of meeting this evening at Budget that was brought down last week by the 6:30, the Standing Committee on Agriculture Doer government. I am disappointed to see, meet today at 5 p.m. to discuss the however, that it is a budget that has kept middle­ organizational aspects of the committee's income earners amongst the highest taxed in the consideration of the agricultural resolution. country. This is a budget that will cause more of April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 551

our young people to move away to seek better come from if there is an upcoming economic opportunities in provinces and states that are by downturn? After riding an election promise to far more attractive places to live, work and raise eliminate hallway medicine and fix health care families. in six months with $15 million, the Doer government has pumped half a billion dollars Mr. Speaker, governing is about making into health care and guess what? We still have choices. Last week the Premier made a choice to hallway medicine. Health care is not magically keep middle income earners among the highest fixed like they claimed it would be. taxed in the country. He made a choice and decided to spend $6 for every $1 of tax relief. He They thought it would be so easy. In made a choice to spend, spend, spend. The kind opposition, they demanded over and over that of spending we are seeing is unmanageable and the Tories put more money into health care. We unsustainable over the long run, particularly in added money to meet health care demands as the area of health care. We have seen health they arose and as we were able to do that. Then spending increase by $469 million over the they became government and accused us of 1999-2000 Budget. That is 22 percent in two reckless spending. Then guess what, Mr. years. That is almost half a billion dollars. Half a Speaker? They built all this so-called reckless billion dollars. Health spending is now 38 spending into the Budget and added 6 percent on percent of Manitoba's total budget. It sits at $2.6 top of that. Then they overspent that amount by million. Because we have not seen a plan fo r $75 million. While the Minister of Health (Mr. health care, I have little comfort or little Chomiak) has said that the buck stops nowhere, confidence in this Government's ability to he is wrong. Whether they like it or not, the buck manage the health care changes wisely. They do stops at the desks of the Premier (Mr. Doer) and not appear to be looking for the efficiencies in the Health Minister. They have choices to make, health care. They do not seem to be looking fo r and in this Budget, they chose to spend, spend, the innovations, which could help make our spend. health system stronger. Instead they stumble from crisis to crisis and throw money at As we unravel their spending in Estimates, it everything. will be interesting to see where they have chosen to spend, why they have made those choices, and * (14:40) if it is actually making a difference to the patient. Are patient outcomes better? The It is so interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that evidence is saying no, Mr. Speaker, despite the right after the NDP fo rmed government the fact that the Doer government has increased Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) said and I health care spending so that Manitoba spends quote: We do not have any control over well above the Canadian average and spends spending. The buck stops nowhere. more than any other province in Canada on a per capita basis. Mr. Speaker, it appears it still stops nowhere. The minister at the time said when the I am very concerned in particular, Mr. Budget was $2.1 million that spending was out Speaker, about the economics of the deal of the of control in health care. He called it a disaster. Pan Am Clinic. There is no policy fr amework or Half a billion dollars later, I wonder what he business plan fo r this deal. There are a huge calls it now. number of questions to be asked on this particular issue, and I do look forward to finding The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) also out the details of this deal. At this point in time, I said that everyday he spends on the job is like a will not dwell on this particular subject, but I can fr ightening ride on a runaway train. Well, it assure the minister that there will be a number of appears that train may now have derailed itself, questions fo rthcoming on the whys and Mr. Speaker. Where will the spending in health wherefores of that particular deal. care end? How can it possibly be sustained at this rate? Where is all this money that the Has all of this extra spending in health care, minister has now built into the baseline going to half a billion dollars almost in two years, helped 552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

them to keep their election promises? Mr. The challenges in health care are many, and Speaker, the answer is a resounding no. Yo u they are mounting. They include unacceptably Ain't Seen Nothing Yet was the NDP theme song long waiting lists fo r appointments with doctors, at their party convention held in February. We appointments with specialists, treatment thought it was an appropriate kind of music fo llowing those appointments, diagnostic tests, given the NDP's long list of broken health specialty treatment like radiation therapy and promises. sleep disorders, emergency care, and that only names some of them.

We think the party is correct; we ain't seen Also among the challenges facing the nothing yet. We have not seen a dam thing from system are staffing shortages, those which are this party after a year and a half in office. We growing and those which are just emerging. We ain't seen an end to hallway medicine, and we see dramatic shortages in the area of nurses, ain't seen hospital waiting lists slashed. We ain't fam ily physicians, radiation therapists, physio­ seen an end to the nursing shortage and we ain't therapists, occupational therapists, neurologists, seen an end to rethermalized hospital fo od. We pathologists. Our health care system faces a ain't seen more full-time nurses. We ain't seen number of fundamental serious problems. They 100 more beds immediately reopened. We ain't need to be addressed so that Manitobans can get seen better consultation with nurses. We ain't the treatment they require. seen comprehensive recruitment and retention strategies for any of the health care professional Mr. Speaker, patients who rely on health groups. We ain't seen health care fixed with $15 care services and who fund our system through million. We ain't seen responsible health care their tax dollars should determine the health care spending based on a plan. We ain't seen health system and the legislative framework that care being rescued. reflects their priorities and values. We have started this dialogue; it is called Connect Manitoba. A particular aspect ofit held recently Mr. Speaker, this Premier (Mr. Doer) and was the health fo rum called Health Options, this Health Minister have got to grasp the simple attended by some 170 people who had valued concept that simply throwing money at problems this wonderful opportunity to get together and is not going to solve them. They have to have a state what was on their mind. real plan to address the very real health care issues that are alive in our province, but they Although we have just started this dialogue, have failed to deliver that plan. Our priority as a it must continue to expand. This Government province must be providing patients with quality has got to engage Manitobans in a meaningfu l and accessible health care services. Health care dialogue on the future of their health care in Manitoba and throughout Canada is fac ing system. Imposing their ideological-based will on unprecedented challenges. To face these Manitobans without first asking them how they challenges, we need to take part in a dialogue would like their health care system to develop is about the kind of health care system Manitobans absolutely unacceptable in my view. The Doer want fo r themselves and fo r their families. We government has pretty much slammed the door need to develop solutions to the challenges on any public debate. Big Brother knows best for fac ing health care to ensure a stable and the people. Big Brother is going to decide. sustainable system. Mr. Speaker, this Budget did not provide a We commend frontline health care comprehensive long-term plan for health care. professionals, Mr. Speaker, who have been This Government has not provided a plan to working beyond the call of duty to provide the improve efficiency in both spending and best care they possibly can. They are telling us management of health care. What this that the status quo is no longer sufficient. We Government does provide is an ad hoc approach strongly encourage this Government to listen to to health care. Indeed, they have even admitted them and to listen to their suggestions for that they fa iled to keep their commitment to end improving health care in Manitoba. hallway medicine. April IS, 200I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 553

While we note that the Government also had briefings from their department, this reaffirmed the need fo r financial accountability minister stiii chooses, this Premier (Mr. Doer) fr om the RHAs, they did back off of the strong stiii chooses to perpetuate this myth that the language they used last year when they stated Tories fired a thousand nurses. Well, that is RHAs would have to avoid deficits. absolutely bunk because those nurses, had they Interestingly, when last year they approved the had an opportunity within their contract fo r a budgets fo r the RHAs, it was interesting to note mobility clause, would not have gone through that they allowed two thirds of the RHAs to this particular system of having to be laid off in present deficit budgets, and they accepted those order to be later rehired. deficit budgets despite the strong language used during the budgets that the RHAs would have to I could ask the Minister of Health and I avoid deficits. It is interesting, on the one hand, could ask the Premier then if they want to they would say that, and on the other hand, they continue to go down this path, why then have would actu ally then tum around and allow and they just fired 350 VON nurses in Manitoba. We accept deficit budgets to be put fo rward by two have a nursing shortage here. We have a crisis thirds of the RHAs. Mr. Speaker, an interesting here. We have a vacancy of nurses that has one that I do want to take a moment to discuss jumped fr om 600 to II00 under their watch. I and certainly set the record straight on is the would have to tum around and ask the NDP, Mr. whole issue of the NDP continuing over and Deputy Speaker, why have they fired 350 VON over to say that the Tories fired a thousand nurses? I also want to know then why they are nurses. going to fire all the nurses fr om the Morden and Winkler Hospitals in the near future. * (14:50) Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is a game that can be Mr. Speaker, they continue to place fa lse played. It is definitely a politically opportunistic information on the record with their assertions game to play, and the NDP play it particularly that the Tories fired a thousand nurses. It well, but the fa ct of it is that I 000 nurses were certainly is a politically opportunistic thing for not fired in this province during health care them to do to keep bringing this up over and reform of the '90s. over. They fe el they score big points with the public when they do that. It is interesting, I am Mr. Deputy Speaker, any comprehensive now starting to hear from more of the public that plan fo r health care would have to include a are saying: Why does the NDP continue to do vision and ideas fo r the future. Clearly the NDP this. The NDP knows that a thousand nurses do not have a road map fo r the future of health were not fired. Why do they keep perpetuating care in Manitoba because they have not that myth. The NDP knows full well that presented Manitobans with a plan that includes a because there was no mobility clause in the mention, for instance, of anything to do with contract, nurses had to be laid off so that they information technology. They certainly criticized could be rehired during a time of health care us during our term in government, but we see reform. The majority of those thousand nurses nothing fo rthcoming from them. There is no were simply redeployed to diffe rent health care mention of a plan to any degree at all fo r mental fa cilities. In fact, of those nurses, 830 were later health improvements. There is no new plan fo r rehired; 274 of those nurses originally laid off addressing our nursing shortage. They certainly chose to retire. do not say how they are going to attract or keep nurses in Manitoba. In fact, the two-year Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the diploma program, although it is almost one year Chair into its existence, stiii has not been approved.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government There is no plan for attracting or retaining knows fu ll well those numbers. They have been allied health professionals. Where is the plan fo r made fu lly aware of what happened during the physios? Where is the plan fo r the health care reform at that particular period of occupational therapists? Certainly groups that I time. Despite the fact that I am sure they have have recently met with fe el that this particular 554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

Government has been bargaining in bad faith on they made those promises in the 1999 election their particular settlement. There is no mention campaign. of progress indicators to measure progress in restoring health care as promised in the Throne Hallway medicine has again become an Speech. There is no mention of their election issue in recent months even though there has not promise to put nurses in schools. Mr. Deputy been a winter flu outbreak. Had there been one, Speaker, there was so much missing from this we certainly would have seen additional strain Budget in the area of health care and in terms of put on the resources and, I think, a much more a plan and a vision fo r a future, it is really hard critical situation than what we have seen because to support a Budget that does not do anything we have not seen a totally successful plan rolled but spend, spend. There was no path to fo llow, out by this Government. and so money keeps getting dumped in, but we really at this point do not have much of an idea Something that particularly disturbed me in where that money is going or whether or not it is October of last year, an elderly man died in his having any difference at all on patient care. wheelchair in the waiting room of an emergency department while he was waiting to be seen. The I want to talk now a little bit about hallway Health Minister last year blamed the summer medicine, but it is actually hard to know where bout of hallway medicine on bed closures due to to begin. Considering the Finance Minister (Mr. holidays, but Victoria General Hospital said it Selinger) is the only member opposite with the did not close any beds this past summer. The courage to admit that his Government's election truth is that the NDP government did not fu lfil health promises were irresponsible in the area of its promise to open a hundred new beds. They hallway medicine, indeed in his Budget last made it sound like they would snap their fingers, week he admitted that his Government still has and they would have this miraculous cure. They not ended hallway medicine. In fact, the NDP would have more full-time nurses. They would ran on a campaign of quick-fix solutions. There have more nurses. They would have a hundred were no ifs, ands or buts about it during the 1999 new beds. They would end hallway medicine. provincial election campaign, and there should Certainly, like a bubble, it has burst on them, be none now. and they have not achieved any of the health care promises made during the 1999 election.

The Health Minister indicated that he would The Health Minister now says that the end hallway medicine in six months with $15 problem is going to be solved with some fine million, but he has failed. The problem now is tuning. One has to wonder what that is going to far from being resolved. In fact, there are more mean. November 23, 1999, the Health Minister patients in the hallway now this year than there said: There will be no patients in the hallways. was last year. That is what we were elected on. The Health Minister (Mr. Chomiak) April 6, 2000, said: The The NDP promised to end hallway medicine phenomenon of hallway medicine has been six months after the election, in fa ct by April 5, largely eliminated. I believe we have lived up to but hallway medicine is still practised in many the commitment we made during the election Winnipeg hospitals. In fa ct, at a news conference campaign. The Finance Minister, on the other at Red River College on September 20, 2000, the hand-and we do have to give him credit for his Premier (Mr. Doer) himself admitted that his courage and his fo rthrightness in making the Government did not fu lfil the promise to end comment on Insight in September of 2000 that hallway medicine. The Premier claimed that the their promise to end hallway medicine was broken campaign promise is due to the nursing indeed an irresponsible one. shortage. Well, what a surprise. Where was his * (15:00) head at prior to the election because he certainly knew even then that there was a nursing The Premier (Mr. Doer) in September of last shortage? This nursing shortage has been in year said: There is no question that we feel that existence for some time now. The Premier knew the Jack of nurses has been a major impediment it. The Minister of Health knew it. Despite that, in fu lly implementing all the commitments we April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 555

have made. We cannot just add water and mix to that was inaccurate. He indicated that we had get a trained nurse. He certainly led Manitobans told people that the fact that these doctors were to believe that he could. In fa ct, Manitobans cancelling their surgeries was a fabrication, I believed him when he said that he could end guess, of our imagination. In fa ct, these two hallway medicine. He was convincing, despite doctors fr om St. Boniface Hospital were the fa ct that he knew the challenges were compelled. They fe lt that they had to mail out a insurmountable. He knew he would not have an letter to their patients notifying them that they opportunity to be able to meet those particular could no longer provide service to their patients. goals set fo rward, but he made the promises anyway. This was not an invention of ours. This was a situation where two highly trained, highly Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, probably the specialized, very, very good doctors in their field most insulting thing to Manitobans: Recently on fe lt compelled to write a letter, and they said that Insight, the Premier has said that Manitobans it was with deep regret that they could no longer have misinterpreted what he promised during the provide service to their patients. Sixty patients election campaign. He did not really promise to were sent this letter. This was not a fabrication end hallway medicine. It is now Manitobans' of the Tories. For the Minister of Health (Mr. fa ult, he says, because they misinterpreted the Chomiak) the other day to even suggest that we Province. That is absolutely unbelievable and were circulating irresponsible information again disgusting and disgraceful fo r a premier to now is just some bunk, and it is absolutely shameful make comments like that. that the minister would even indicate that.

This now from the Minister of Health (Mr. The doctors had indicated that the Winnipeg Chomiak). The Minister of Health probably has Regional Health Authority had placed extreme one of the most interesting explanations fo r what financial constraints on their program because of was promised, and you have to listen to this one the program costs. The doctors go on to say that because this is what the Minister of Health said they have an 18-month waiting list for surgery they promised. He said what his party pledged to and with the new cutbacks even further stress is eliminate was, now I quote: The persistent placed on their clinical practice. They even went everyday someone in the hallway getting so far to say that they fe lt they could not provide medical treatment on a regular basis all year their patients with safe, quality health care as round, unquote, situation we have seen in ORs. they have previously promoted. They indicated Mr. Deputy Speaker, can you believe some of that they strongly regretted their decision, and this backpedalling? Can you believe how they they did look forward to solutions. are squirming out of the biggest promise they made during the election? It is disgraceful fo r a governmentto be behaving like that. It is so interesting that when we bring stories like this forth that the minister almost infers that Manitobans are still going to the United they are a fabrication, a figment of maybe my States for treatment, and when one considers that imagination, when in fact we were dealing with the nursing shortage has doubled over the last 18 some very, very clear facts and a letter that we months it is obvious that nurses have not been had and numerous letters from patients and hired either. It was revealed that although the phone calls from patients. The Minister of Winnipeg Regional Health Authority was Health tends to get so indignant when we put running a $1 0-million surplus, two days later we faces on the numbers, yet when he was in heard that doctors at St. Boniface Hospital had to opposition he was a masterful person at doing cancel revision surgeries fo r hip and knee that, and now becomes so indignant when he has replacement patients due to cutbacks. to now face this kind of a situation himself. He certainly plays politics, and he was playing it In the House the other day, the minister said with these patients the other day. I find that something that I find quite shameful. The particularly shameful in a situation where we are Minister of Health indicated that we on this side talking here about patients that were in a of the House were passing around information considerable amount of pain, in desperate need 556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

of surgery, and were being turned away by our contained no plan to attract or retain any of the health care system. health care professionals in Manitoba. I would be interested to know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I would like to know how the minister could the minister does have any plans to add more justify cancelling the surgeries when two days students to the system. I would also be curious prior to the letter-receiving people there had as to why this minister waited one full year been a news release from the WRHA indicating before admitting more students into the medical that it was running a surplus. If these surgeries school, because certainly the talks fo r that had have now been reinstated at St. B, as the minister happened while we were still in government. indicated the other day, then I certainly would That program could have been implemented one like the minister to tell us exactly what has been year prior to when it was. I do wonder why the reinstated, where it has been reinstated, and if minister waited a year to do it and then why he these physicians could carry on their good only chose to put 15 med students into the practice as they have been doing in the past. system. Certainly he had an opportunity to do more, and not just rural spaces. Some of the Even though I do support the Health propaganda that is out there right now, maybe Minister's attempts to encourage fiscal the member fr om Dauphin would like to just pay accountability throughout the health care system, particular attention to this because his name is it should not be done at the expense of patient certainly attached to obviously what must have care, especially when the minister promised to been a news release from his Government, slash waiting lists and guaranteed in last year's where he was certainly taking shots at our Budget that his Government sufficiently funded leader, indicating that we did not vote fo r their the health care system. Well, if he sufficiently Throne Speech and therefore we did not support funded it last year, why did they end up going their physician recruitment and retention plan. over budget by $75 million in health?

* (15:10) The nursing shortage has certainly doubled, but this Government does not deal with this Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, their Throne problem in their Budget in any significant way. Speech had absolutely nothing in it that Even the Manitoba Nurses' Union stated they did addressed health care in Manitoba. So to have not see anything in this Budget to address the voted fo r it would certainly have not been in nursing shortage, and it is interesting that this anybody's best interest. Government has tried to take credit fo r doubling nursing enrolment in this province. Also, the Member fo r Dauphin has indicated that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) I should remind all members opposite that rose in the House-this was in the fa ll session­ while there will be 508 nursing grads in the year and only brought up the issue of the number of 2002, 418 of those grads enrolled under the doctors in Charleswood when he went on to say Manitoba nursing education strategy, which was that our leader had said that there was nothing at initiated long before they were in Government. all but the shortage of doctors based in our rural Only 90 of those students are fr om this communities. The member fr om Dauphin also Government's reinstated two-year RN program. stated that there is currently one doctor per 2000 Again it seems they have a little bit of trouble patients in rural Manitoba, one doctor per 5000 with numbers when they are trying to take credit in northern Manitoba, and in Winnipeg there is for this huge increase in enrolment and only 90 one doctor per 600 patients. of those students they can truly take credit fo r. I think it is a real discredit to the people that are I would like to inform the member fr om actually doing all the work out there. That Dauphin that the reason the Leader of the certainly is the Faculty of Nursing at the Opposition stood in the House and asked that University of Manitoba. particular question on that particular day was because their recruitment and retention plan fo r This Budget also provided no plan fo r physicians dealt largely with only rural issues addressing doctor and specialist shortage, and it and the rural physician crisis. While we support April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 557 that part of it, we also would have supported a committed to timely access to diagnostic more comprehensive approach that also treatment and care, then I have to wonder where addressed the urban issues. I am in a situation in is their commitment in terms of action. They my Charleswood constituency-and that is why certainly put fo rward in terms of language. It is this particular issue was brought up in the easy to say things, but it sure is hard fo r them to House, Mr. Deputy Speaker-where I have three fo llow through and come fo rward and address physicians in Charleswood who each have 4500 this appropriately by putting that money where it cases. That is way above what this member put should be, and that is into medical diagnostic fo rward in his news release and in his quotes to equipment. the paper that in Winnipeg there is only one Mr. Deputy Speaker, personally, I find it doctor per 600 patients. I have three doctors in very, very unethical that they would take this Charleswood who have 4500 cases, and I do not money from the fe deral government, and they think this is an isolated situation. I do not think would sit on it fo r the time they have, knowing that this is just happening in Charleswood. that it actually delays access to timely treatment Mr. Deputy Speaker, the other issue that and care in this province. certainly does need to be addr essed right now is my wonderment, I guess, as to what this In the Budget, it indicates an expansion. Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) is doing with There will be money used fo r the expansion of the medical equipment fu nd of $37.1 million that acute care services, dialysis, cardiac care. Well, I has come to this province from the fe deral should hope so. I mean, it does not take a rocket government. We know that that money flowed scientist to know that these are issues that do into Manitoba in October of last year. We know need attention in this province. In fact, we heard that that money was sat on for six months rather about a cardiac care situation yesterday, where a than being put into needed diagnostic equipment, Mr. Jack McDowell, who had a heart attack in whether it was purchase of new equipment or January, has had to spend 700 of his own dollars repairs, and we know that with a lot of the and go to Regina so that he could get a test, an pressure that has been on this topic over the last angiogram, and subsequent angioplasty. So with several months once we fo und out that they had all these grandiose promises made during the the money, we note now in this Budget that the election, we have to wonder why is Manitoba so Minister of Health has committed first-year far behind in ability to deliver its care. spending which is last year's spending and they are only going to spend it in this Budget of $18.6 million. That money is now going to be spent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are so many other issues that I would like to talk to. also, through a request from the Ambulances, people are still wondering, after department, have fo und out that the Department their grand announcement, where are the of Health, the Minister of Health, has only spent ambulances. Where are the dialysis supports in $9 million of provincial money on medical this system? equipment in this last year, half of it for repairs and half of it for new equipment, so that when On a final note, something that has really the minister stood in the House the other day and struck me were remarks made by Dr. Albert grandstanded about buying all these CT Shumacher, the president of the Ontario Medical scanners, well, of course, he should; that is what Association, in March, to the Canadian Club of this money was meant for. This money was Toronto. I would like to quote a fe w of his specifically earmarked for medical equipment statements. He said there is a crisis in health care only. now, and the fu ture looks even more daunting. I I have to wonder, Mr. Deputy Speaker, why want to make my case by outlining three that money came into that province, ended up, propositions. well, we are not quite sure where it all ended up because we still have not seen the second year's These are his quotes. The first is that our commitment at all. In fact, the second year, that health care system faces an unprecedented crisis. should be spent in this budget year, is now put The second is the need for dialogue about the forward to next year. If this Government was so kind of health care system Canadians want fo r 558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 themselves and their families, and the third is the The overwhelming support on the initiatives urgent need to develop and implement the we have done to improve and rebuild health care solutions needed to ensure a stable and sus­ in this province was directed in this Budget to tainable system of care in future needs. huge expansion in moving ahead with our health care, and we heard it very strongly from Manitobans, that health care is the No. 1 priority. That is what the Tories are proposing in We listened and it was reflected. Education, as terms of addressing health care in Manitoba. We well, was listened to by Manitobans, the vision must invite and engage Manitobans into a of an educated population here in our province dialogue. We have a health care system that we fo r an economic development strategy, and that worry about the sustainability of it, and we do is reflected throughout the Budget. not support the fact that the NDP government has not promoted any dialogue with Manitobans. The competitiveness of our small business That is something we believe in. We fe el that it and large business here in Manitoba is one step is very important fo r self-examination, serious forward again in this Budget, Mr. Deputy debate and ultimately meaningfu l reform. Speaker. The small business taxes have been reduced constantly both throughout our first I am sorry that I did not see any of that in Budget, now into this Budget, and as many have this particular Budget. I think this Budget has mentioned on this side before me, for the first been a major disservice in terms of health care. It time in some 50 years, since the second World has been a disservice to Manitobans. Thank you, War that the members opposite seem to be living Mr. Deputy Speaker. in, has shown a leap ahead in corporate taxation here and an advantage here for Manitoba that is * (15:20) certainly a step in the right direction. It shows a commitment to the public services and the Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and values that people put into their public services Corporate Affairs): Thank you very much, Mr. here in Manitoba while committing strong Deputy Speaker. It is really a pleasure today fo r measures to debt reduction, reduction in pension me to stand and speak to a good balanced budget liabilities and the significant tax cuts that we here for Manitobans. The member opposite have seen, that most people here in Manitoba mentioned a few of the attributes in her blather will see a 10.5% reduction in taxation by the there that I will expand on a little bit. year 2003.

The Budget was fo rmulated by listening to We hear the members opposite, Mr. Deputy Manitobans. The consultation that we believe in Speaker, stand and speak to not moving quickly very strongly on this side was to balance and enough in some of the reactions to the rest of listen with an inclusive ear to all Manitobans Canada, and it astounds me that they have the here in our province. The extensive consultations audacity to get up and speak after doing nothing that were done by the minister in many, many of fo r a decade in many of the measures that we the communities throughout the province proved have taken the resources and put them toward to be very fruitful and to be part of our Budget and the reductions, putting us into an advantage for and with Manitobans, Mr. Deputy Speaker. here in our province. It just absolutely astounds me that they would speak against Manitobans' I believe this Budget truly reflects a balance wishes on improved health care, education and that Manitobans have envisioned for a number of to position ourselves fo r competitiveness here in years. It reflects the priorities of families and the province of Manitoba. communities and neighbourhoods and . a rebuilding in our province that has not been seen They pick selective numbers and the fo r some 12 years. The Budget hits people at members opposite have used diffe rent numbers home at the kitchen table. It is a doable, realistic, and tried to confuse the public, but just in balanced budget, and choices were based on speaking to people on the doorstep and speaking what Manitobans fe lt was important to them and to people generally since our Budget came down important fo r the Government leadership to do. on the 1Oth, people are not fo oled by it. They April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 559 know that a family of fo ur with a $60,000 know we cannot, continue to sell off our income has total savings of income and property resources and sell off our companies that are taxes on a balance by the year 2003 of some doing so well such as Manitoba Hydro, and as a $2,545. That is progress, Mr. Deputy Speaker, previous administration had done the Manitoba and people realize it. Telephone System that was undersold and let go fo r bargain-based prices just to put some money The Budget reflects certainly the strong in the bank so they could squander it away over views, not too continuous with the previous a short period of time. That will not happen. government's ill-conceived and short-term People realize that. They saw that in our Budget. vision, or should I say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the lack of vision and irresponsible spending beyond I believe you should look to a third party our means. Many of the members opposite like obviously and Manitobans have looked to a third to flog themselves as pretty good readers of the party, certainly when it comes to jockeying bottom line on financial plans and budgets. If around in the shell game that the members that were truly the case, they would recognize opposite had played. I know other members have the improvements that we have put into this spoken to this. The CIBC, the World Markets Budget. brief document by Mr. Warren Lovely, certainly exemplifies exactly the way the financial Previous administration and members community is recognizing our previous Budget opposite had a whimsical spendthrift mentality and again in the expansion on it with this that saw terrible overspending to the point, even Budget. Of particular note was Mr. Lovely's during our good economic years, of the huge comments that note the 2001 Manitoba Budget draws that the members opposite used to take reinforces a commitment to reduce taxes, pay out of Manitobans' bank account, the fiscal down debt and the investment in programs, stabilization account, to the tune of $180 million while maintaining a true, positive fiscal balance. that they took out and called it a balanced budget in their last year in office. That is not a balanced Mr. Deputy Speaker, that speaks volumes budget. People know that you cannot continue to when you have a third party like Mr. Lovely, a overspend money out of the bank as the previous very, very well recognized person in the administration had done-[interjection] It financial community and certainly not noted for certainly was a shell game. Members are right on being left leaning or certainly fronting things at that. I know the members prior, I do not that are not true. I think even of more note was imagine they run their own fam ily households that the true budgetary surplus of $26 million that way, but they certainly were spendthrift actually exceeded the $1 0-million target that we with Manitobans' and other people's money. It had initially thought and that speaks volumes fo r was very, very unfortunate. the efforts of our Finance Minister this side of the House. Our first year in reduced the dependency by a half, $90 million. Absolutely incredible that it Manitobans recognize that with last year's was cut in half just to actually show a true tax reductions and this Budget's tax reductions balanced budget, and then this year greatly Manitobans will see double-digit personal reduced to the need of not needing to dig into the income tax reductions by 2003, slow and steady Fiscal Stabilization Fund that the members and a movement forward. Manitobans recognize opposite had done. I reiterate, they had done that this. Continued cuts to small business tax, the throughout some of the best years and some of increase in the income threshold from $200,000 the best revenues this province had and still to $300,000 by the year 2002. Many, many could not stay within their means. small-business people in the province here have mentioned the 50% increase in that area will That type of irresponsible accounting stimulate and produce economic growth here in certainly infuriated Manitobans and direct our province. They have been hoping for some wishes were put into this Budget. There will no movement in that area fo r a number of years. longer be that type of dependency on the Fiscal The business community is very excited about Stabilization Fund. We cannot, and Manitobans the positive steps fo rward of this Budget. 560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

Manitobans now have the strongest disposable into what should be a regional health centre in income growth in 20 years. the Brandon area. It certainly supports local areas, a large surrounding area in the southwest Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is the lowest that part of the province. Many, many of the people we have seen since I believe it is the year 1976. in the rural community utilize that health care It shows the progression in this province. It centre, and it will be funded as such. shows the positives in this province. It shows why many people are starting to come from The criticism that can come, that is Alberta and make investments in our province in constructive criticism and suggestions, Mr. their small business. Deputy Speaker, this side of the House is cer­ tainly always willing to listen to that. However, * (15:30) uninformed lack of vision from some of the members certainly is hard to take. We mentioned I know the Premier (Mr. Doer) spoke a little fuel taxes and some of the things that members bit today about a few of those companies, and opposite had thought should be a reduction in certainly one that is close and near and dear to fuel taxes. Quite frankly, the reduction that they the area that I come from was Nexen Chemicals. had wanted, it is actually below that point It is a company that is well recognized within already on fuel tax in Manitoba. Someone our community.. They have made substantial opposite had mentioned that the 13.5 cents per investments in and about the Brandon area fo r a litre of fuel tax should be reduced. Well, totally number of years and again another investment of inaccurate information, and I would suggest that $55 million with another increase in some members opposite do a little bit more employment in the Brandon area. As well, homework before throwing out numbers such as within the Brandon area was Albchem that. Industries, another sodium chloride plant that has invested $50 million and plans to open up a The Budget continues fo rward the visions of starting employment of 21 personnel. Manitobans. Certainly with the initiatives of rebuilding health care, which was a priority in The reason for coming to Manitoba has been the Budget, education and many others, it the vision this side of the House has had fo r a exceeded the expectations that Manitoba had. I number of years, the hydroelectric power that we have had that coming back certainly to myself, have. It is a renewable resource. It is a clean, and many of the members on this side of the environmentally sound resource. Manitobans House have mentioned it as well. When you look recognize that with this side of the House there at the investment, members opposite like to will be a number of new incentives. In Alberta claim the sky is fal ling and things are falling to certainly some of the companies in Alberta are pieces here in Manitoba, that is certainly not the starting to recognize the Manitoba Advantage case at all. Here in Manitoba there is a very good out here in the hydro rates. flavour out there. People know this is a good place to invest. They know that Manitoba is a The Budget also speaks to some of the quality province to reinvest in and as well to investments in health care. When we look at the expand in and move their businesses here from past administration, the promises made and other locations. unkept can be numbered from election to election to election. Prior to election, promises made; after the election, promises broken. When you go down the list, Mr. Deputy Brandon Regional Health Centre is a good Speaker, since September of '99, it is incredible example of that. Right from somewhere around the amount of investment that has come into the 1990 there were promises of expansion and province on a large scale. Certainly another one dollars to be put into that facility. Certainly as a that is in the Brandon area, I know both the community member there, I noticed right after Member fo r Brandon East (Mr. Caldwell) and elections those promises continually broken. The myself are very proud of this company. It has last one that was broken, I think certainly people been a company in Brandon fo r some 27 or 28 in the Brandon area had had enough of broken years. It continues over and over to make promises. We have invested substantial dollars investments in the Brandon area, and that is the April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 561

J.R. Simplot chemical company. It is located in Members opposite may not fe el that things the Member fo r Brandon East's area, and it are going quickly enough in the direction that employs 230 direct employees with over 500 they would like to see, but certainly it has gone indirect and at-the-farm-gate jobs. They have in a direction that business here in Manitoba has invested another $120 million in their phase-one recognized as being extremely positive, in the expansion. Palliser Furniture, I know the right direction and making us very competitive Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. with our neighbours throughout Canada. Mihychuk) had mentioned this previously, the investment there of $20 million over five years, The Budget as introduced this year showed a with employment in the first phase 200. The commitment to a well-rounded, balanced budget, total employment we brought up to 1200, to not just to one sector of our society but certainly 1400, total jobs. a little bit for everyone. When we think of the education advances that we saw previously last Kitchen Craftexpansion, excellent Manitoba year in the Budget and we saw certainly this year company that continues to expand here in in the Budget, really affe cts families. I know Manitoba, the investment there $26 million, with from the years 1990 continually up to 1999, employment 300 to 500 jobs. Loewen Windows certainly in the city of Brandon, we saw over is another example, a good Manitoba company and over again the underfunding of the with an investment of $20 million, 250 jobs. The educational system. You can steal from Peter, electronics expansion, Vansco, the investment of but sooner or later Paul has to pay. People $12.4-million expansion was announced January recognize that, by not committing in the '90s to 13 of 2000, employment 240 new jobs. Gage, education and to the funding that was needed in investment of $1 million, brought total the educational system, the money had to come employment up in numbers to 226. IBM, from somewhere. People wanted to see the employment another 40; Hudson's Bay Mining standards of quality of education kept up in their and Smelting, the investment there continues, communities. They wanted to see the vision that the poultry industry here in Manitoba, expansion we see, a well-educated workforce and giving all of the industry by $15 million, the list goes on individuals the ability to have a good education and on. and fo r that education system to be funded.

There are some fo ur and a half pages that I * (15:40) have here, with investments such as Air Canada adding to the accounting jobs here in Manitoba, The Tory tax credit was ripped away, bringing the number of employment up here in reduced from $325 in the mid-'90s down to the city of Winnipeg. The Tolko industries, the $250. It was another reduction. It was out of the expansion, their initial investment of $35 pockets of Manitobans here, and it seems that million, employment 200, Warehouse One, the members opposite do not want to put a clothing production facility that they have will percentage or talk about that part of it, Mr. be an expansion of employment there to 100. Deputy Speaker, but that is just another area The PeaCan Mill Producers, pea processing where every homeowner in the province of plant in Miniota, with an investment of Manitoba over these last two Budgets has seen $850,000, there is new employment there again an average decrease because of the $150 that we here in Manitoba. have re-invested back into a property tax credit fo r Manitobans. It has been on &verage a 9.3% The number of small businesses with 25 reduction in their property tax credits. Some employees or less, we hear over and over again people with higher property taxes will be less; the expansion of the small business growth here others with lower property taxes, that number in Manitoba and what they fe el are some will be increased to the mid-teens. The one thing excellent incentives in this Budget to shape their people recognize is the commitment of that $150 bottom line even further than had been in the to the bottom line, to their pocket, to their wallet, Budget previously last year. to their benefit, thatthis Budget shows. 562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 I

The property taxes that I saw escalate in the efforts, certainly the positive efforts on the Brandon in certainly '97, '98, '99 issued by the conversion of the Pan Am Clinic here in school division because of a lack of funding in Winnipeg. We believe on this side that the education during those years were in the double future, universal, public, not-for-profit health digits. Certainly the last year, going in '98 it was care system is what Manitobans want, and they 9 percent on property taxation. So the incredible saw that reflected. increases have stopped. It is being funded now properly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the point of Given the incentive back to graduating inflation. The rising costs in schools have been doctors here in the province, certainly recognized in this Budget, and they are seeing introducing incentives to keep doctors here in for the first time in a decade real funding back Manitoba afterthey graduate has been targeted. into the educational system. It is targeted in this Budget. Certainly adding 15 medical school spaces with 9 dedicated to The health care that we saw deteriorate over training family physicians fo r rural and northern the period of the '90s, starting in 1999 when we Manitoba is a step in the right direction. When came into office was by June of that year we see our rural people here in Manitoba that in somewhat overspent, over $100 million some instances are 6000 per physician, it is overspent by the previous administration, and obvious that an initiative should be directed in that has been stabilized. It was stabilized in the that area. That initiative is being taken. Instead first Budget and again restabilized, and certainly of cutting medical school spaces here in increases for regional health authorities to assist Manitoba, we are now going to build on our them with putting together their budgets with the health care system here in Manitoba and add funding increases and the support fo r some of spaces to it. the new and creative approaches in service delivery has been backed by this side of the House. The nursing task fo rce will be providing resources for immediate action to respond to the The conversion of the Pan Am Clinic as a report that they will soon be completing and be recent example of the Government's introducing. Certainly having those fo lks work commitment to preserve public health care while towards some of the solutions in Manitoba as improving services to Manitobans has been very professionals as frontline people in the area well received and very well appreciated. The knowing the issues is going to be incorporated. I fe ar that Manitobans have and I believe certainly know the internal medicine graduates certainly all Canadians have is the two-tier health care support a need to provide the added care, and system that is being flogged to our neighbours to that is initiated in the report as well. the south. Certainly the Klein government has moved a step in that direction, and I believe that The increase in fu nding for health care is is why the members of the House here opposite certainly welcome. Our financial plan has who seem to always want to compare ourselves incentives in health care funding to a new high to Alberta, it seems to be one of the biggest of almost $2.6 billion, or approximately 38 reasons they would like to move toward that percent of the entire Budget in Manitoba, system. remains certainly on course and continued.

We do not believe that is a system that Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitobans that we Manitobans want. We have heard it over and have spoken to previous to Budget and certainly over again, that Manitobans want quality health after Budget have come back. You take all care here in the province of Manitoba. They diverse groups here in the province. We can use want reasonable health services provided by the the example of a larger family, by today's stand­ Government, not a two-tier health care system ards anyway, a family of five with two earners where only the very wealthiest will get the best here in our province, the income averaging of health care. That is not the vision of this side. around $75,000. In 2001, tax reductions will be That is not the direction that this Budget goes in, $882 and total projected savings from the year and many Manitobans recognize and appreciate 2000 to 2003 will be $3,361. April I8, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 563

Mr. Deputy Speaker, $3,36I is a lot of hallways were something that was a priority set money to the pockets of Manitobans and by this going in '99. It was decreased, and the certainly to their families. Parents of one child reduction has been some 80% reduction on an on the other end of the scale with an income of I8-month basis that Manitobans recognize is a around $30,000, the I99I tax reductions will be strong commitment to the health care system, a $455 and a total projected savings through the strong step fo rward, an 80% decrease in hallway years 2000 to 2003 of $I ,6I7. You look at a health care here in the province of Manitoba We senior in our province, a single senior with an know there is a distance to go to make that zero. income of$20,000, tax reductions and savings of We also know that that other 20 percent that are $35I fo r the 200I Budget. That is a lot of money being counted certainly are not overnight stays to a single senior here in our province. Thirty in many, many cases. Many of it is people who dollars a month is a substantial saving and are coming in and the triage being done in the certainly can go a long way to assisting them. hallways fo r an extended period of a couple of Total projected savings fo r them throughout the hours, however, not overnight stays and people years 2000 to 2003; $I ,23 1. A fam ily of fo ur spending days at a time, as we saw throughout with one earner of an income of $40,000, we see the late '90s and into '99. People have seen a tax reductions in 2001 of $582, with a total huge step in that direction. projected savings through the years 2000 to 2003 of $2,259. * (15:50)

The diagnostic equipment was identified, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitobans realize the certainly is undervalued here by the previous progress of tax cuts that we can afford. I spoke administration; $22 million in this Budget to earlier about not breaking the bank and replace and upgrade aging diagnostic equipment, overspending the dollars as the previous with a further $I8 million next year, Mr. Deputy accounting we saw throughout this previous Speaker, goes a long, long way to some of the administration where you start spending your problems that we have seen in waiting lists fo r hard-earned money that is in the bank and our diagnostic equipment here in the province. overspending on your revenues and what you actually have. Manitobans know that this is Our ongoing support for extended nurse affordable. They know that a I 0.5% provincial training and recruitment programs, building on income tax cut by 2003 is balanced. They know the enrolments that have already increased some that it is managed. They are assured that it is 60 percent since our initial initiatives were dollars that we can afford to do with the many introduced. The number of graduates here in the other incentives that are being done in what they province will be up certainly almost double over have certainly let us know is the top priority here what the previous administration would have in Manitoba that we knew going into the election done under their previous projections. That is in '99 of health care. well recognized by Manitobans here in the province. They are seeing other expansion in education and knowing how important that is to The new initiatives and better care of co­ people and fa milies. We saw in our first year's ordinated emergency rooms, the regional health Budget a 10% decrease in tuition fe es in the authorities can better manage, in a timely and province of Manitoba, and this year again, that predictable manner, their budgets by the new being maintained. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is a process. Disease and illness prevention huge impact on fam ilies and for fam ilies having becoming a stronger focus, adding to recent init­ a vision of educating people in their families and iatives in the Health Check public information giving them the opportunity and the legs to stand campaign, the meningitis vaccination program on going into their adulthood into whatever they and the largest flu vaccination program in the choose fo r their field. province in Manitoba's history.

The health care incentives over the last I8 Many other points that this Budget touches months as well as the number of patients in on, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are certainly worth 564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 mentioning. Health care has certainly been the year of 2001, which is an incredible step priority. People notice the improvements. forward.

Education. Over the last 18 months, on our Mr. Deputy Speaker, education and health first Budget and now into this Budget, we have care and also when we look at putting families increased funding to public schools by $47 first, I think many, many of the people in the million, compared to an increase of $15 million community recognize it. When we put families in the five budgets from '95 to '99. Manitobans first with initiatives like child care funding recognize it. They recognize it on their property increases of 7.7 percent, building on last year's taxes, they recognize it in the classroom, and 18 percent, it certainly hits a broad spectrum of they hear it from the educators. The post­ families that are out there. The child care secondary students, we have heard from over facilities in the province certainly have and over again what a difference it makes to recognized the increases and the support that them on a personal level. We are seeing the they have seen over these last two budgets; 7. 7 increase of enrolment certainly from our first percent is a large increase. Our first Budget tried year to this year expand in a huge amount of to stabilize and bring back 18 percent. They enrolment increase. It is obvious that this recognized as well that it could not be continued incentive is well received. It is obvious that this at that level; 7. 7 percent was certainly well makes an impact to people's decisions on received. whether they can afford to go to school. The 42% funding increase for Healthy Child Previously, we had seen a 10% increase Manitoba was introduced last year to better yearly, on average, from 1990 to '99. Brandon fo cus resources on early childhood development. University, I will use it as an example, saw a The new Budget completely ends clawback of 102% increase over those years, at roughly 10 national child care benefits for hundreds of percent per year. Assiniboine Community families on income assistance here in our College saw a 214% increase throughout those province and for children aged six years old and years. What they have seen in the last two years under. is that has stabilized. They have seen that not only not increase by 10 percent; they have seen The new prenatal program helps more low­ it remain a decrease of 1 0 percent fo r the second income mothers meet the special nutrition needs year in a row. It gives families and it gives of pregnancy. These initiatives are extremely young people in our communities the fe eling that well received and funding has been put into this Government is behind them, that this place in this Budget to meet those needs. Government supports them and that this Government sees value in their continuing their The Neighbourhood Alive! program that education here in the province of Manitoba. was certainly targeted here in the city of Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson has seen The $100 million in capital funding to rejuvenation and revitalization of many of our colleges and university was obviously well neighbourhoods. Certainly the funding there has received. We saw deterioration in the been continued into this Budget. It is people in infrastructure in our education facilities here that place in the communities doing some of these was unprecedented since most of them were pilot projects, if you will, Mr. Deputy Speaker, built, and now they are seeing a reinvestment in and looking at the expansion of this program some of the capital needs that have been long throughout Manitoba possibly into the future but overdue, certainly a commitment by this certainly seeing the funding back into place Government with considerable dollars and a again into our Budget this year. The hope for the future that this can be kept up and Neighbourhood Alive! and Lighthouse program maintained and not let slip into the cracks as it is positive, it is stronger and it certainly builds did from '90 to '99. The academic year of 2001 safe and strong communities. will see approximately 10% more Manitobans attend community college and a thousand more The support fo r family violence prevention spaces made possible throughout this budget certainly puts families first. The programs in the April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 565 women's shelters and the investment that we list forward. So having the job completed is have put into those programs are well certainly a satisfying one I am sure fo r all of recognized. those people, and I acknowledge that this is a tremendous task. Certainly of incredible importance to Manitobans both in the urban area here in the There are imperfections in the Budget, city of Winnipeg, city of Brandon, Thompson however, and I guess our job is to try and point and some of the larger communities is some of those out and have government recognized very, very strongly in the agricultural members think more carefully about them. I initiatives we have put in and built into our would like to start by saying thank God for Budget, well recognized. We had a debate here balanced budget legislation. It was harshly that saw a lot of tension yesterday on agreement treated by members of the current government from both sides of the House that quite frankly when it was first brought in, I believe in 1995. was very impressive. I think most members Virtually every member of the Opposition of that recognize that the fe deral government has to get day spoke negatively about it, that it could not into the game and be part of the solution for us, be done, that it would handcuff them, that it was but we continue to fund agriculture, we continue a draconian way to approach budgeting. I am so in this Budget, a 6.3% increase over last year. pleased that they have now accepted the [interjection] The member opposite says: Why legislation and abide by it to the best of their do you not decrease it? I cannot go along with ab ility. the member opposite. We increased the spending on health care and are very, very proud of it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would suggest to the Finance Minister that their same reluctance to cut taxes more Just in closing, I know my time is quickly dramatically is probably the same thinking and up. The positives of this Budget Manitobans the same reasoning that they used when they recognize are tax cuts we can afford. It is a opposed that legislation. It is a concern, I think, balanced budget fo r families, communities, and to many Manitobans that the Finance Minister neighbourhoods. It is well recognized that our and Cabinet did not find a way to make more vision is fo r people in Manitoba. We want to dramatic tax reductions to keep pace with other expand our economy and do well. Thank you jurisdictions. The member from Brandon West very much. talked about burgeoning revenues in the early '90s, and I would just like to point out that he is * (16:00) wrong. We went through a recession of the late '80s and early '90s probably second only to the Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Depression years of the 1930s. Revenues were Deputy Speaker, it is always a pleasure to speak not growing at that time. Revenues were not of to a Budget. I am pleased that the person who is the magnitude that they are today. charged with crafting the Budget is with us today, and I would like to give some credit Also, compounded at that time was the fact where credit is due and make some comments that the fe deral government abandoned the field that maybe he would take to heart in terms of the in terms of spending on social services. I believe direction he would go with the next budget. that they took out some $7 billion annually across the country, money that would flow to It is a monumental task to put a budget provinces, and governments right across this together, and few people understand the time land had a difficult time backfilling for true and the energy devoted not only by the Minister priorities as they tried to maintain those services. of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and Treasury Board [interjection} The member from Thompson calls staff but also the Treasury Board people and the these excuses, but I notice that the Minister of Finance people who bring fo rward options to the Finance (Mr. Selinger) is nodding his head in minister and to Cabinet and right through the agreement that those were difficult times. I am departments that are asked to look at ways that pleased that the fe deral government has come they could spend less and also to bring their wish back to the table, and the fe deral government has 566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 1

made some substantial improvements in their The Government also was going to do the funding fo r social services. same with MPIC, maybe in a more modest way, and after five days of reflecting on that decision, I would suggest that members would look at changed their mind. It was probably one of the the tax situation and I believe know that they better decisions that Government has made, could have done better, that they could have kept because there is something about MPIC dollars, up with other jurisdictions. Many third-party whether they are in surplus or whether in pundits are now saying, you know, while we are difficulty, that people really hold near and dear not into a recession at this point, there are to their heart, and even though we have low certainly storm clouds on the horizon. What you insurance rates in this province, it is very have done is created a spending binge that gets difficult to convince drivers that that is true. built into the base of the Budget, and it becomes They have always fe lt that insurance rates very difficult to deal with when you have elsewhere were lower. The fact is we do have revenue which slows down. I would like to just low MPIC rates, but that money is very much point out the revenue fr om the last two budgets. dedicated. It is a rate-based fo rm of collecting These were both brought down by the current revenue, and people will guard that very Government. They made some adjustments to jealously. But I am concerned that the minister is revenue in '99-2000, indicating that total revenue taking more out of Manitoba Hydro into general was around $5.9 billion. The revenue that is revenues. Again, when the crunch comes and projected in this Budget is $6.8 billion. So there other fo rms of revenue are not as buoyant, he is is at least $850 million of new revenue that has going to further adjust that fo rmula and take come into the system through the fact that there even more out of Manitoba Hydro. has been a buoyant economy. There is momentum in the economy, and virtually every Third-party watchers of the Budget have area of provincial revenue is increasing. called the tax reductions modest. That certainly [interjection] is an appropriate term. These tax reductions were extremely modest and probably the major Yes, we had projected in 1999 that there criticism I have seen of the Budget fr om all of would be probably in excess of a billion dollars those people who look at it, who study it, are in new revenue over five years. They have indicating that he could have gone much further already reached that in two years, or nearly in this way. He also has adopted, I think, reached that. Again, what is lacking is a balance something that Paul Martin has used effectively of how you deal with that $850 million, close to over a number of years: he projects the savings a billion dollars of new revenue. Virtually all of over three and five years. The fact of the matter it has gone on the spending side and it has been is, I think you have to look at your expenditures built into the base of departments. Once you and your tax reductions on a one-year basis, have done that and created programs and hired compare it this year to last year, instead of additional staff, it is very difficult to deal with saying, yes, over five years we are going to save that when you have to look at adjustments in the so many millions of dollars. It is a mug's game to expenditures of government. I think I will look do that, and people are not fo oled by it. at some remarks made by others a little later on in my speech, indicating how difficult that is I think that this Budget largely, to me, going to be. represents a missed opportunity, that there have been tremendous increases on the revenue side, As well, I think the minister is taking more and there could have been a balance between money out of Manitoba Hydro this year than has expenditures and tax reductions. This is an ever been taken out before in water rental rates. opportunity that may not come along again fo r a He talks about changing the formula, comparing long time, and your ability to increase spending it to other jurisdictions, but the fact of the matter and reduce taxes in the future is going to be is he is reaching into a Crown corporation and made more difficult. taking $102 million from that Crown corporation through the water rental rates and moving that The fe deral government transfer payments, across to general revenue. because of what other jurisdictions are doing, April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 567 certainly have increased. Prior-year adjustments Board and before Cabinet to look at. Clearly, very much went in favour of the Manitoba there are options in terms of hiring new staff. government in the latest re-assessment. Those There are in the neighbourhood of 500 more prior-year adjustments will happen again, and civil servants working for the provincial they could have a negative impact the next time government today than there were a year and a that happens. Equalization again is up because of half ago. Obviously, this is a cost. It is an area other jurisdictions, but if there is a slowdown in where you could have saved money. the economy in other provinces, this will Reclassification of civil servants: There are a negatively impact on Manitoba in its ability to higher number of reclassifications today, this maintain these programs. Budget year, than have taken place in previous years; again, an area where this Government I think I would like to reflect for a moment could have saved money. on the interprovincial tax rates. We have moved from a tax on tax to a system now that other The Finance Minister and the Premier have provinces have also moved to, which is a tax on painted themselves into a bit of a comer where income. I want to point out specifically the they will not have the flexibility to deal with middle tax bracket which across the nation income reductions in the future, and I think that usually impacts on people who are making is one of the major points that I would like to $30,000 to $60,000 of income. Manitoba has make. nearly the highest rate of taxation in any jurisdiction. It is 16.2 percent, and it is going to The Winnipeg Free Press in an editorial in be adjusted downward to 15.4 percent which is a March of 2001, this was before the Budget but very small adjustment. It is still completely out after the Third Quarter Report, and their headline of line with Saskatchewan, with Ontario, with is: Easy Come, Easy Go. I think it makes the Alberta and even some of the Maritime point very clearly that the fe deral transfers that provinces. This is the group of taxpayers, those were announced at that time, the Province people who are in the middle earning that received $351 million more in these prior-year $60,000 income, who are going to be impacted adj ustments, equalization and federal transfers, the least and who pay by far the largest portion and the Government virtually spent all of it. All of taxes in Manitoba. of it was spent. There was an opportunity there * (16:10) to pay more down on the debt, to put more in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund for the previous year In the Budget Papers, this is indicated very and also position yourselves to reduce taxes clearly. For a family of fo ur earning $60,000 more dramatically. There is a $96-million comparing B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario payment on the debt. That is in the legislation and Manitoba, Manitoba pays the absolute that was passed. I would point out that about highest income tax. Similarly, with two-earner fo ur years ago when we had additional revenue families earning $75,000, it is more dramatic. we doubled the payment on the debt, so there Comparing the western provinces and Ontario, was an option there of paying down more debt Manitoba has absolutely the highest income which would put you in a better position in taxes of any of those jurisdictions. Now, future years. members of the Government say, well, you should not mind paying higher taxes because the The Free Press in this particular editorial cost of living in Manitoba is lower. Because the also indicates that the Doer government will cost of living in Manitoba is lower in terms of have to substantially reduce spending, perhaps mortgages, in terms of home heating, auto cutting services to protect tax hikes. Its record so insurance, that does not give the Government far shows it will be a hard task for this licence to impose higher taxes on Manitobans, Government. Again, the example is that you and I think it is wrong. have no trouble spending the money, a very difficult time in cutting taxes and showing Members opposite are fo nd of saying what restraint. are the options if you do not want to have this level of expenditures? Every department in The Brandon Sun from the same month, governmentbrings those options before Treasury March 22, 2001, indicated that income tax cuts 568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 I are needed. The editorial board of the Brandon report. It is gathering dust and I can tell you Sun was calling fo r the Finance Minister and the people will not fo rget that. I think it is absolutely Premier (Mr. Doer) to do something more imperative that it be addressed. There is a sense dramatic than they did. They indicated similar of unfairness that report has not been addressed. leanings to the Free Press: Admittedly, tax cuts I am hoping that the Finance Minister and the will lead to some tough decisions at budget time, Minister in charge of Emergencies in this but even tougher decisions will have to be made province and the Premier will bring out that if Manitoba loses ground economically because Rose report and do something with it. it cannot compete for jobs and opportunities with other provinces. Again, recogmzmg that Another direction this Government is taking, competitiveness on the tax side is very, very which I think is having a negative impact on important and we have indicated that in all rural Manitoba and where the recessionary times probability you are not able to keep up with are going to be fe lt first, is in rural Manitoba. I Alberta and Ontario, but we should not be falling think that they led Manitobans to believe that behind Saskatchewan in such a dramatic fa shion. they were combining the Department of Rural Development and Urban Affairs into Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Acting Speaker, in the Intergovernmental Affairs to reduce the number Chair of Cabinet positions there are but that nothing would change. I would like to also mention some other directions I think the Government is going. It Well, I can tell you there is a growing was raised yesterday that this Government has fe eling in rural Manitoba that the momentum not yet responded to the Rose report. The that was created by the Department of Rural Premier seemed to indicate with farm producers Development over the years of its existence in in the gallery that money could have been taken the middle to late '90s is now missing, that the out of the infrastructure program for paying direction that Rural Development gave to our down other activities of government. That communities, to our R.M.s, to our people, was simply is not true. Government is not able to use that you could do anything from anywhere in infrastructure funding to pay for agriculture, to Manitoba, and there was definite leadership pay for other activities of government. given. There was leadership given by that department, by the staff members of that The Premier has traveled recently in rural department across this province which was Manitoba and had his photo ops in places like helping to diversify our economy. It was giving Shoal Lake, Minnedosa and Souris, where he hope to our small towns that there were small breezes into town, meets with an invited group industries, there were businesses that could be of people and has his picture taken for the local created there. paper, indicates he is listening. I can tell you, if he did listen in Shoal Lake, Minnedosa and * (16:20) Souris, there are unresolved issues with the excess moisture situation of 1999 that have not been addressed. Yes, the debate yesterday I think That momentum is dissipating. It is partially led us to a consensus and a process whereby we because of the excess moisture problems of are going to put more pressure on the federal 1999. It is partially because of the economic government, but the Rose report, which has been situation with rural producers, but it is also in the in the possession of the Government since they businesses, in the communities, in the local took office, is being ignored by this governments that are out there that there is no Government. longer anyone who is providing leadership fo r them. There is no longer a government There are things that this Government could department that seems to care about them, to do to assist producers in the southwest, assist them, to provide programs, and while the businesses in the southwest who were impacted programs have not disappeared, activity within by that excess moisture, and the Government is those programs have. I think there has only been not taking a strong leadership role here. They one Grow Bond that has been announced since have not addressed the recommendations of that this Governmenttook office, and it was one that April 18, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 569 was in the chute when they took government. should be concerned that young graduates That has virtually disappeared as an option for coming out of our community colleges, our our communities. nursing institutions and our universities are also looking fo r other places to work after they have The REDI program, the rural economic been born and raised here and trained here. They initiatives, no longer seem to be coming fo rward want to stay in Manitoba, the majority of them from our communities, and there is a fe eling out do, but they are being lured away by the fact that there that their provincial government has the cost of living, when you take taxes into fo rgotten about them. [i nterjection] Well, the consideration, is lower in other jurisdictions. member from Transcona seems to be taking They will put more money in their pockets and great glee that the Isobord factory in Elie is bring more money home at the end of the day. going through difficult times. I can tell you that the concept was a good one, that it was well This Budget was not what business people supported by Manitobans, by producers, and that were looking fo r. It was not what young people they have had some cash flow problems which were looking for, and I would be more than a has thrown them into a receivership, but the little bit concerned, if I were a member of the plant is still open. It will be resolved. It will Government, that this is taking place. reopen, and that plant will make money. It will allow fo r the collection of straw again, which Another example that is used, Medichair was such an important side benefit of that plant. Ltd., who is a small company, two former So I would not be too gleeful that he sees this as students of mine from rural Manitoba were the a failure that he can point his finger to. principals of the company that operated it out of Brandon, very, very successfully. They have There were problems with design that will relocated and taken their jobs to Calgary. They be overcome, and again you have jobs that have say very clearly that the reason that they went is been created out there. You have the correction it is a more competitive environment, and we of a straw-burning problem that was in existence have done nothing in this Budget to entice them before. That was a good plant, and it will be back. Similarly, other larger corporations have successful in the future. So I would caution my also been mentioned. honourable friend from Transcona not to take too much glee in the fact that they have gone Schneider's have already made their decision into receivership and are going through some to cancel a substantial $125-million investment difficulttimes. in this province, 12 000 jobs. These were promised for the city of Winnipeg. I recall the The other day I was able to listen to a talk sod turning. The Premier and the mayor of radio program where the manager of Brett­ Winnipeg, with shovels in hand, were touting young Seeds was on there. I think that here you this great new plant that was going to be built have a company with 60 jobs who are looking here. Well, they understood very well the for a reason to stay in Manitoba. They are, fo r economics of Manitoba. They could fo resee the the most part, born and raised in Manitoba, like lack of competitiveness, and they have decided the quality of life here, like the fact that they not to build. I mean, that is a major, major blow have grown up here and have become a for the city of Winnipeg. successful company. But this Budget where they were looking fo r a new direction from this Buhler Industries, fo r more than one reason, Government, this Budget where they were are having some difficulty, but again, whatever looking for some more dramatic tax reductions, happens with Buhler Industries, one ofthe things this did not appear in this Budget and is one of that is not keeping them here or enticing them to the main criticisms that businesspeople have of stay here is the lack of competitiveness of our this Budget. tax system. I acknowledge there are other issues, but again, this is a company and a principal This firm is looking at relocating with their owner who has been a very, very successful 60 jobs to another jurisdiction, and I think we businessman in Manitoba, a very generous should be very, very concerned about that. We person. I know the Premier (Mr. Doer) probably 570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 1 wishes he had not spoken so disparagingly about * (16:30) him. He has been a very generous contributor to So, Madam Acting Speaker, it is fo r that the arts. He has been a very generous contributor reason that members on this side will not be to the health care system, and he has been a supporting this Budget, that there has been an very, very successful businessperson in this opportunity to do something very, very dramatic province and in the communities in which he that ould have put this Government in a strong operates. You know, it is not only Buhler . � . position with the business community and with I dustries and Versatile that I think you put at ? �payers across this province, and they have rtsk when you treat a businessperson like that· fa iled to do that, that the tax cuts are minuscule others of his companies may also flee because h� compa ed to the expenditure side of the Budget, does own property in another country. � and this leads to an ongoing failure to make Manitoba more competitive with other Investors Group Securities moved 49 jobs to jurisdictions. Toronto, again, a major employer in Manitoba, a major growth industry, a very successful Unfortunately, governments do not get company. They, too, are finding that it is better another chance until a year from now to try and to have their head office in another jurisdiction. correct their mistakes. You can only hope that transfer payments remain buoyant, that income I know the Premier (Mr. Doer) mentioned tax and sales tax and gaming revenue continues today the possibility of a couple of small to grow, because you have built into the Budget companies coming the other way, and that is expenditures that are going to be there year after true. That is because we benefit from our energy year after year. There is also a built-in increase rates here in Manitoba, but if you want to do the in �hose expen�itures. As salaries go up, you are mathematics, do the arithmetic on the job losses gomg to be facmg a number of union agreements and the jobs gained, I think you will see that come open 12 months from now, and you Manitoba as a net loser. So these are concerns have created an expectation out there that that Manitobans have. salaries will rise by 2 percent, 2.5 percent, 3 percent or 4 percent. Again, that is going to be Again, this Budget is very much a missed difficultfor you to manage as a government. opportunity, one in which the Government could have made a very much stronger stand on taxes I know that the Minister of Education (Mr. than they did, and many, many Manitobans are Caldwell) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. disappointed. . Sehnger) have announced new funding fo r education. In my particular school division of The mathematics of this Budget is for every Rolling River, the increase is 1.2 percent, and tax dollar that is being saved by Manitobans, this however you do the numbers, that increase is not Government is spending six times that amount, enough to cover the cost of the energy used to and many, many third-party objective drive the buses, the energy used to heat and cool commentators on this Budget are warning that the schools. So you have got that against the you c ot sustain that level of spending, that � backdrop of high expectations of upward salary you will not be able to sustain it when there is a adj ustments in the next year, and it is going to be downturn on the revenue side, and that downturn very difficult to balance that. What is going to will come, that no government in the history of happen is the property taxpayer is going to have Manitoba ever benefited from such a buoyant to pick up that difference. For all the members revenue stream as this one did in the last two opposite are saying about increased funding fo r years where the Budget documents show in two education, property taxes are still going up quite budgets alone an $850-million increase on the dramatically across this province. It is an issue revenue side. That is unheard of and that could have been dealt with by the unbelievable, and the sad part is that most of it is Government but they chose not to, and I think b i g spent rather than reinvested in the people, � ? that is going to come back to haunt them. People givmg people a chance to keep more of their were looking for dramatic changes on the own money and make their own decisions on property taxes. That has been offset by the those expenditures. April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 571 additional costs that the education system is for Lakeside has been representing that going to visit on them. constituency as long as he has is-I mean, the Member for Lakeside normally does not do that. So those are reasons that members on this You know, he may have one speech where he side are not supportive of this Budget. It is says spend more and then he will make another unfortunate that this is a spending Budget and separate speech where he says we should be not a tax-saving Budget, and I will be joining my cutting expenditures. colleagues in voting against it. Thank you very much, Madam Acting Speaker. Let us be up front here. The bottom line is what we have done in this Budget is something Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Trans­ that governments are rarely able to do. Yes, we portation and Government Services): I want have increased expenditure. Where have we to start, as I always do, by thanking the people of increased expenditures? I just want to put this on the Thompson constituency fo r the opportunity the record because when they argue against the to be here to once again speak on the Budget spending, they have got to understand where it debate. comes from: health care. Are they suggesting we not invest in health care? I get a kick out of them I really enjoy the Budget debate because it getting up on a daily basis fo r attacking us for gives us an opportunity to put on the record our not having fixed the problems they created in views not only on the Budget document itself eleven years quickly enough. I talk to my con­ but the direction of government in this province. stituents, and I can tell you, I encourage I am particularly pleased with this Budget. You members opposite to get up on health care on a know, I could swear that members opposite are regular basis, every time the Member for talking about another budget. I mean, let us be Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), or any of the realistic here. I have seen a lot of budgets. I have members opposite get up and talk about health seen budgets that are good budgets in good care, about waiting lists, about hallway times, and I have seen some tough budgets in medicine, you know what, it just reminds them. tough times, and, Madam Acting Speaker, this is It is like a bad dream, a flashback of II years of a good Budget. It is a good Budget; it is a good neglect of our health care system. I encouraged Budget. them to do that.

I heard members opposite. I realize it is a I have news fo r members opposite. People challenge fo r them. They have to come up with do not have fo nd memories of the 11 years of reasons to oppose the Budget. I must admit they Conservative government. We have not been are being, what is the word, creative? They able to solve all the problems overnight, but I spend the first halfof their speeches saying that can tell we made a substantial difference. I will it is a spending Budget; it is spending too much. just give you a few examples: nursing, nursing Then they spend the last half of their speeches shortage. saying, well, we are not spending enough money in this area; we are not spending enough money in that area; we are not spending enough money The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) in the other area. in his speech talked about we have not solved the nursing shortage. Madam Acting Speaker, Well, there are certain words I will not use give me a break here. You know, they were the here, but "creative" is the word. [interjection] ones that eliminated a thousand nursing positions. They were the ones that got rid of the The Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) is RN program. They were the ones that cut back reminding me of, I know of what a fo rmer on nursing training. You know what we have member of this House, Abe Kovnats, did put on done? We, in a very short period of time, not the record, and, you know, really, I mean, what only reinstated the RN program but we virtually was his statement again: In Opposition, you can doubled the nursing training that is taking place, have it both ways. But you know, in the same in a year and a half. Now, that is not going to fix speech, I think one of the reasons the Member the nursing shortage overnight, but I can you tell 572 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 I you one thing: over time you are going to see a way, shape or form, but people are not going to significant increase in the number of nurses. take you that seriously.

Talk about education, let us talk about post­ They talk about medical shortages. Guess secondary education, because we made a hat they did in terms of doctors. They cut the � significant difference. I am really proud of the mtake at the University of Manitoba. I remember fact that we reversed the trend we saw under the because I was the Health critic at the time and I Conservatives fo r more than a decade. We saw a kind of suggested to them that there was some virtual doubling of tuitions. What we did is we lack of logic here because there was maybe . announced a I 0% cut in tuitions, and we have constdered to be a surplus of doctors in urban maintained that I 0% cut. I say to members areas at the time. opposite, talk to young people in your constituency, talk to students of all ages, because Well, you know, it never did occur. Outside I have heard this from people. They have said to of the perimeter, in rural and northern Manitoba, me that it is really a breath of fresh air to see a there was a shortage of doctors. Well, we have government that is committed to post-secondary increased the intake. What I am particularly education. proud of is the fact that we have targeted a significant part of that increased intake fo r rural We have increased funding for ACCESS and northern doctors, trying to get more people programs. We put more than a hundred million from rural and northern Manitoba into the dollars into capital funding for colleges and ystem because we know they are going to stay � universities. We have increased the operating m rural and northern Manitoba. That is not going g an�s to universities this year by a very to solve the problem overnight either, because ! stgmficant amount. I mean, the bottom line is you cannot turn out instant doctors. But one yes, they are expenditures, but we are making u thing we will do over time is make a difference. � fo r more than I 0 years of neglect in terms of that So anyway, there is health care. increase in tuition fe es, I 0 years of neglect in terms of capital expenditures. Now, education, I love listening to Conservatives on education. We just saw the I can tell you I am really proud to be a part Member fo r Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) get of a government that has the kind of vision that up, and after criticizing us for spending too has seen the development we have seen with the much money on education was crying about a Red River downtown campus. Once again situation that involved a school district in his something that is an initiative of this area Well, let us put on the record what we have Governmentshows our vision fo r the future. done in education. In 18 months we have increased public school funding by $4 7 million. I could continue, but what I want to do is That is triple what the Conservatives put in in reference just how desperate the members their five budgets from 1995 to 1999. If you opposite are getting. I actually had the combine the increased property tax credits, opportunity to read the Leader of the because the member expressed concern about Opposition's speech, and, well, it is interesting, property taxes, well, I can tell you, with the because I want to suggest to the Leader of the announcement in this Budget of a further $75 tax Opposition here, and I have seen these debates a credit, public education is being either directly fe w times in the past, one expects that or mdtrectly_ _ funded by $100 million extra. Government is to be a little bit more positive about developments in the province and Now, members opposite talk about spend, Opposition is to be a little bit negative at times. spend, spend. Which public school program That is very much what Opposition and would they like to see us cut back in order to Government are all about. Her Majesty's loyal meet their demands that we spend less? Which Opposition has to put fo rward a critique, but school district would they cut? How many then I read the Leader of the Opposition, and I teachers would they cut? The bottom line is, yes, realize he is new to this House, new to elected you may be able to have it both ways in one politics, but when I read a statement staying that April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 573 it is truly a sad day for the constituents of I say to members opposite, today, when we Kirkfield Park, indeed all Manitobans, because had the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) today every single one of them woke up in a virtually promoting the efforts of a mayor in province that is on its way down the road to Alberta to attract business from Manitoba to decline. Alberta, I say to members opposite, as much as they may disagree with our policies as a government, I will say that Manitoba is a good Madam Acting Speaker, the Opposition at place to do business, and I can point to business times has been accused of being into doom and after business that has located in this province gloom, but you know what, I would suggest the because we are competitive and we will compete Leader of the Opposition get a reality check, with Alberta. I tell you, compare our hydro rates because I do not know what province he is to their hydro rates and you will understand why. talking about, but it is certainly not the province I consider it the height of irresponsibility for the of Manitoba. Look at how we are performing Leader of the Opposition to get up and make economically, with the most significant increase those kinds of statements in this House. in disposable income in close to 20 years, the lowest unemployment rate in the country, the * (16:40) lowest unemployment rate amongst young people. Now, I realize the Leader of the Opposition has a bit of a different view on the world. Back It is one thing to talk about the state of the in the Throne Speech, in his opening speech in economy, but on the way down the road to this House, his version of the election is that decline? When I saw the member opposite today they hit a detour. Of course, you mention the in Question Period, I say to members opposite, word "detour" and being Minister of because I have seen a pattern, there are two Transportation I remember at the time it came to things that I would suggest to members opposite. mind that I really think what happened with the One is when it comes to issues, and I take the Conservatives in 1999 is they basically got hit meningitis vaccine as a good example in that by a semi, okay, and before they could recover particular case. They should perhaps take the fr om that there was a road washout. I think the time to talk to the experts, because the decision bridge has disappeared. I tell you, this was not a in terms of the provision of the meningitis detour. They did not really understand that vaccine was based on that. You do nobody any people were upset at them, that they wanted a kind of favours, and particularly in rural change in government. But that is okay. Manitoba, if you push and you-the words fear mongering come into play-the suggestion I should not give free advice to members of somehow the vaccine should be provided to the Opposition. I know they are not going to everybody in the province. listen. They really have a tough time dealing with it. Actually, I give the Leader of the Opposition some credit. He is known for his I understand that is the reaction that people background in the music industry, but he has have, but the bottom line is do members opposite now become a film critic. Have you seen his not stop to consider the fact that, fo r example, if speech? He rattled off all the latest films, you you give the vaccine and it is not necessary in know, Traffic. I ran through it here and I know terms of the public health, if you do have a our Minister of Culture (Mr. Lemieux) has meningitis outbreak in that same area down the probably run through this as well. It was kind of line a number of years, you have reduced the an interesting ploy. Yes, Traffic was one he effectiveness of that vaccine? So it may be a referenced. Oh, there are a number in here, I tell very easy short-term political thing to jump up you. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, a very and say provide it across the province, but if you well-reported movie. He even put ministers into are going down the line to impact on rural various movies. I could not resist. I do not have Manitobans' health, I would suggest to members quite as much time as the Leader of the opposite listen to the experts, because our Opposition to go and watch movies, but when I decision was not political. It was based on have seen the Leader of the Opposition recently, medical advice. 574 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 1 there was a movie out a few years ago Dark You know what though? I finally figured it Man, I have seen it in the 7-day rental section in out. I have finally figured out what is really the video store, and we have seen various things eating away at members opposite. We heard it on that theme, you know, The Invisible Man. from the Member fo r Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) with his rather snide, cutting re­ Now, here is the Leader of the Opposition marks about the tour the Premier (Mr. Doer) for you, and it is actually a good script for a took to 20 communities throughout rural movie. You see him on the steps of the Manitoba. Legislature. There are hundreds of farmers and he is just giving it; he is right into this, right. So I have made a real effort as minister for a you think he is there. Then you see him getting couple of departments that are pretty critical to interviewed afterwards: Now, our position on the rural Manitoba, the transportation side, farm package was we are in. We think it would Emergency Measures, to get out and talk to be irresponsible to tum away that kind of people, not just during the flood period, but I support for Manitoba farmers. went around to actual potentially flood-affected areas in southwest and southeast Manitoba, Yes, it should be more. We took a position. along with my colleagues, including the Minister Now, what did the Leader of the Opposition do? of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen). I The invisible man here, his position was, well, take that very seriously, coming from a he did not really have a position. He was not community that knows what it is like to be necessarily saying we should be in or we should fo rgotten by governments. We had one fo r 11 be out. years that fo rgot our existence. I take it very seriously. An Honourable Member: That is our privilege. You know what is interesting, though, I Mr. Ashton: The Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. really, really understand now what the problem Enns) says that is his privilege. I can tell you, if is. For a long period of time, you know you have the Leader of the Opposition continues in that heard about yellow dog country, right. It used to fashion for as long as that party keeps him in be that there were whole parts of this province that position, he will be Leader of the Opposition that the Conservatives fe lt that they owned for a long time exercising that privilege. politically. You could run a yellow dog, and they would get elected. You can tell me you can have it both ways, but the bottom line is, on key public issues, the Well, you know what, I can tell you, and I people of Manitoba want to know where you look to my colleague the Member for stand, and where we stand, I am not sure LaVerendrye (Mr. Lemieux). You do not know members opposite know, if they know where how much it bothers members of the they stand. Conservative Party to see somebody repre­ senting south of Highway 1 in the Manitoba I am not sure how communications are Legislature. Not only that, when it comes to going on. I see one member of their side at a important local issues like Highway 59, the press conference with Reg Alcock on the twining, guess what? He is not only in the underpass. I do not know, is that their official Legislature, within a year and a half, he has been position? I understand it is an issue of concernin able to do what the Conservatives could not do Winnipeg with the underpass. You know, it is fo r 11 years. Now really that bothers them. interesting again because members they want to cut, cut, cut in expenditures, but they want $37 You know, Brandon West, I mean, they million for that underpass, okay. Maybe they are were used to that little island of sanity in going to get rid of that farm package, which is southwest Manitoba called Brandon East. I tell about $38 million, to pay fo r it. I really do not you, when you have the Member for Brandon know. Maybe they do not want the floodway. West (Mr. Scott Smith) sitting on the That is about $40 million. Once again, I am not Government side and delivering, you know, I sure where members opposite stand. want to run through the list of things we April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 575 delivered in Brandon. BMHC, I mean, the top ten list of the things that we have been doing support we are seeing for Brandon General in rural Manitoba. Hospital, they are starting to get a little bit concerned, but you know it is more than that. It * (16:50) is more than that because I have been throughout rural Manitoba, and what is interesting is I am Water management, you know what, I have getting lots of comments from people. They are seen the kind of damage that has been done by saying, you know, when the Conservatives were the neglect of the Conservatives of our drainage in government, we had to go to them. I talked to system. You go out and look at the provincial one reeve, and this reeve is certainly not a drains. You know, they cut 43 percent out of our Conservative, and he said, you know, "arrogant" drainage maintenance budget. You know why was the word. We had to go and have audiences we have problems right now in rural Manitoba? with ministers. We never saw them getting One of the problems we have in terms of the around talking to people. flooding of fields and with communities is because of that neglect. Well, what we have Not only that, what is interesting is the done is we have committed $25 million for flood response we are getting on some of the protection, and an 11% increase in this Budget substantive issues, and we take a stand. I will for water projects. Perhaps that is where they give an example. We were just in southern want to cut, cut, cut, which we saw earlier. Manitoba travelling around looking at the flood situation. Do you know how many people Drinking water, what did they do? They commented on the fact that we are prepared, privatized water testing. We have instituted a when it comes to the floodway, to put the money subsidy fo r private drinking water tests. I mean, up front to do the due diligence, yes, but also to you just look at Ontario, you look at the recognize the Ste. Agathe dam proposal would Conservative legacy in Ontario, Walkerton. We have significant human impacts, and that has to all know the importance of drinking water. We be part of the equation, not just the engineering have done what the Conservatives did not do. but the human impacts? I can tell you, that is the We reversed that situation. kind of fe edback we have been getting on the rural situation in terms of farmers. Crop insurance fo r excess moistl.H"e, protection of water quality in terms of livestock, I remember, and this is, I think, a real I mean, you know, the Tories cut planners and comment on rural Manitoba. The first six water engineers that were put in place to protect months that we were in government, I had a lot the environment. I mean, why did we not have of people saying, well, it was nice to have the proper data on the Assiniboine River? Because Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk). I of those kinds of cuts. mentioned this to the minister, and she will know what I am talking about here. I remember I mentioned already the agricultural funding. a couple of people saying, well, it is nice to have Let us take Hydro rates. Let us look at Hydro a woman Minister of Agriculture, I mean, a rates. You know, it is interesting with members breakthrough. You know what, after a couple of opposite. I remember around 1992, 1993, the months, I did not hear that anymore. I heard fo rmer Minister of Hydro, Don Orchard, actually from people, it is nice to have a Minister of after we had pressed the issue said he was going Agriculture who has been able to deliver on the to equalize hydro rates. They did not do it. The kind of aid that we did not see. We have doubled party that represents so much of rural Manitoba farm aid in the two years that we have been in continued a system that saw rural and northern government. You go back to 1989 and '90, this is Manitobans pay more fo r Hydro than people the Minister of Agriculture delivering. living in the city of Winnipeg. Guess what? The NDP government is elected and within six You get a kind of a theme here that maybe months we announced that we are equalizing people in rural Manitoba are starting to notice up Hydro rates, not talk, not lip-service, action, a on this. I know we in our caucus developed a, it major benefit, $15 million in savings for rural is not quite a David Letterman here, but sort of a and northern Manitobans. 576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 I

I could run through what we have done in side. Oh, yeah, they will give you all the lip terms of rural emergency services or with service you want fo r rural Manitoba, or you have ambulance. I mentioned about rural doctors, you got a choice of the NDP, which in just 18 know, the farm stress line. How about the grain months, and we have a couple of years yet to go roads program? I have got a little bit of a bias on before we get into an election. Mind you, I tell this one. I will tell you, we are going to see the you, I wish we could call an election right now, first fe deral money in the province of Manitoba believe you me, but they will have a choice fo r roads since 1996 under the Grain Roads between a party that does not take things for Program, something we have negotiated with the granted, that is willing to invest in rural fe deral government, and we are going to see the Manitoba, is not going to pay lip service but is first federal money going into the National going to tackle the issues of real concern to rural Highway Program next year. Now, once again, Manitobans. not lip-service but action. We took the time to go down and work with Ottawa. We are delivering I want to finishwith that because, you know, the goods, and it is going to benefit rural think most people in my area, in terms of Manitoba. northern Manitoba, are used to being ignored. My message to rural Manitoba is you have been You know, I say to members opposite, I ignored for too long when you have had understand their frustration. They are not used Conservative governments in power. Not only to, and it bugs them, to having NDP Cabinet do I ask rural Manitobans to give the NDP a ministers, NDP MLAs in their backyard. They chance, but work with us, because if we were are not used to hearing people say: You know, able to do this in 18 months, just watch what we they are working hard, they are trying their best. can do in the next couple of years. They are not used to that because they still have this idea that large parts of the province are I say to people in rural Manitoba we need a somehow a private Conservative domain. Well, lot more members fo r La Verendrye in this you know what? I mentioned about yellow dog House. After the next election, if we continue on country. Remember that term? They used to use this path, we are going to see a Jot more that term to refer to fe deral Conservatives. members like the Member for La Verendrye Remember them? They are sort of on the (Mr. Lemieux) sitting on the NDP government endangered species list. There is still one in side in the Legislature. Manitoba. Yell ow dog country. You know what? They got arrogant. They did not listen. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Well, that was quite a diatribe, Madam Acting Speaker, but You go across western Canada now, you sometimes you just simply have to tickle will not find too many Conservative members, yourself to laugh. There is just not enough and I say to members opposite, because, you humour in there. I was looking at a definition the know, this is not meant as free advice here and it other day of politics-and I do not like it because is not meant to be anything other than an it would refer possibly to me as well-but observation of what is happening. If you think politics, the first part is poli-, that means many, that rural Manitoba is some private domain for and the second part is tics, that means a the Conservative Party, you better get out and bloodsucking insect. Now I am starting to realize talk to people in rural Manitoba, because they why people say this about politicians. are prepared to give this Government a chance. They are seeing that in 18 months we have done The arrogance of the member opposite, who more for rural Manitoba than they did in 11 just finished speaking, will stir our memories fo r years. I have got news fo r members opposite, the next couple of years, and I think that is just because we are going to continue that, and you wonderful. I needed all the instruction. The are going to have to fight, this may be news for instruction was wonderful. I think it is going to you. In 57 constituencies, every last one, be inspiring, and it is challenging. I admire his because our message to people in the next ability to speak, to stand on his fe et and just election is going to be: you have a choice. You speak and speak and speak even when he, you have got Conservative lip-service on the one know, repeats himself occasionally. But I keep April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 577 thinking that he is not in opposition anymore. hear first-hand some of the ideas and vision of a Why does he not speak as if he is in very successful region. government? He is talking as if he is in opposition, and then he actually believes some * (17:00) of the stuffthat he is talking about. I think it is just the most interesting-{interjection] In the two rounds of consultations the Government has held since assuming office they So, Madam Acting Speaker, it gives me have failed to hold such a meeting in the great pleasure to speak briefly this afternoon on Steinbach constituency. Perhaps they are the topic of the residents of the Steinbach concerned that they will hear ideas that do not constituency. You know, sometimes they have accord necessarily with their own. We have a called that a yellow-dog riding. I think that is a fairly aggressive bunch of people living out there little bit slanderous and deplorable because, first who pretty much look after themselves and do of all, the two dogs that bit me during the last not really depend a lot on government help. If campaign were both brown, and, secondly, I just the Government is simply looking for confirm­ think that the slanderous intonations about the ation of their own ideas, of their own concern, about the dedication of the voters is tax-and-spend agenda, it is true that they will not unnecessary. If people decide to vote a certain find overwhelming support in my area, and way, we have always said that we respect that. yellow dogs included. We respect that the NDP were elected. We respect that the people wanted them, and we say that this is a time when we should be all working However, I believe that a great deal can be together fo r the province of Manitoba, as we did learned from listening to the residents of on Tuesday when we had 100% unanimity on an communities such as we have like Grunthal, issue regarding agriculture. Kleefeld, Niverville, Mitchell, New Bothwell, Blumenort and Steinbach. I really like So, Madam Acting Speaker, I would say that representing that area. It is a bunch of people am very happy this afternoon to have the that I am proud of. It is a bunch of people that opportunity to represent the Steinbach are hardworking. They are independent. Maybe constituency and to speak on their behalf and it is wrong to be successful. Maybe it is sin to mention what they want from the Government in make a profit, but these people are successful the way of budgetary policy and in the way of and they profit in their industries. I would really priorities. love fo r the Minister of Finance to hold a pre­ Budget hearing in the Steinbach constituency. I Of course, this is not the first time that I think it would be a great awakening and possibly have spoken in the House about the priorities of a chance for some people to express themselves my constituents. I only wish that the who often fe el that they do not have that Government had taken the opportunity to listen opportunity to express themselves. and to act upon some of what has been brought to their attention regarding the concerns and These communities I just named, including views of the southeastern part of the province. many, many wonderful farm communities, are places where people are proud of their work. We Now it has been said by the party in have a community such as Niverville who work Government that they are heeding the concerns hard to develop growth. They have a very active of rural Manitoba, but at the same time when Chamber of Commerce and have undertaken they reorganized after their election they have creative steps to promote their communities. I eliminated a position which would be believe what I am saying is correct, but I also responsible fo r the affairs of rural Manitoba. So know that when people repeat inaccuracies in we can hardly believe what is coming out of their speeches often enough they actually come both sides of their mouth. In fact, I would invite to believe it. Well, I really believe that it is the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) to accurate to say that towns like Grunthal which consider coming to my constituency next year continually strive to expand and develop local and to hold a pre-Budget meeting so that he can business and to be a service centre for the 578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 surrounding farm community will continue to Until the day the Finance Minister is willing survive. to listen, I will work to ensure that the views of southeastern Manitoba are heard in this Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Legislature and that the Government receives the Chair message.

In Steinbach, local business people, like Mr. Speaker in the Chair Peter Barkman from Barkman Concrete just came back from three weeks in Germany buying Mr. Speaker, when I listen to the residents of equipment to make bricks. Milton Penner from my area tell me what they want from their Penner International, a long-term developer in Government, over and over a common message the freight business. Even Reimer Express was is heard. This may come as a surprise to some started in Steinbach. Charles Loewen from members across the way who have expressed Loewen Windows, international in their business publicly the difficulty of meeting the various scope, they have developed a business that is demands they receive, but to a large extent the among the finest in the world. Of course, this is residents of my region are not asking this something I have mentioned before and which Government to spend more money. They are not was stressed by my predecessor, Mr. Driedger, asking them to squeeze every tax dollar they can the residents of my region were some of the from Manitobans within the legal confines of strongest proponents of the balanced budget The Balanced Budget Act so that they can legislation. That has served our province so well redistribute that money as they wish. It is over the past several years. amazing how often governments treat the money as if it was theirs. It is not theirs. It belongs to the taxpayer. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I must admit that I am somewhat disappointed that this Government seems unwilling to listen to the ideas and the Generally, business and local residents in vision of residents of my region. It is an old my area are saying give us an environment saying and perhaps a very simple pearl of where we can compete and be competitive, and wisdom that if you want to be successful you we will do the rest. This should be a great relief listen to people who are successful. The to members of the Government. What the Steinbach constituency is a home of such people, businesses of my area are saying-and I would and this Government needs to take its time to guess that this is reflective of the view of many listen to these people. We fe el ignored right Manitoba businesspeople-is you provide us with now, and I guess it is justified. a competitive place to do business and we will ensure its success. We will create the jobs. We will create the opportunity for Manitoba's young So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would invite the people. This is not a unique fo rmula or a Finance Minister to take the time and to listen to particularly novel idea, Mr. Speaker. It has been the residents of the southeast who have worked proven to work both right here in Manitoba and so hard to build this province and to make its in other jurisdictions. Yet, this Government economy grow. I have often spoken of the responded with a Budget that is asking history of the southeast and of the beginning of Manitobans to remain content being among the Steinbach, which occurred in 1874 with migrants highest taxed in Canada and with no long-term from the fo rmer Ukraine-Soviet Union area. vision to close the competitive gap that exists. In These were German-speaking migrants seeking essence, it is asking the residents and businesses freedom of religion and freedom of expression. of our province to subsidize this Government's They often were punished fo r their diligence and excessive spending. It is a lot to ask. It is like for their hard work, because they became leaders punishing people for their success. in the community around the Caspian Sea. When they came to this land they once again became leaders in productivity, and this is, of course, We have known when we have read about being punished today by an unrelenting tax-and­ other countries experiencing near bankruptcy, spend government. that when they offered tax relief the income from April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 579 taxpayers actually increased to the Government where revenue streams were strong and there because the money was put to good use and was money in the bank. I hope they do not think became productive. So we need to leave some this will simply continue regardless of the money with the people who are earning it, so policies they put into place, but I question that they can develop the businesses that will whether they understand that the economic make our province successful. This Government turnaround that Manitoba has undergone over has sent a clear message to Manitobans that says the past decade was not simply the result of we believe we know best how to spend your happenstance. money. It is reluctant to return the money to the residents who earned it and to allow businesses I wonder if they truly appreciate that it was to compete in a competitive tax environment. the result of many difficult decisions and the creation of an environment where Manitoba entrepreneurs could find success and be compet­ In fact, when they talk about the failure of itive. During the last election, this Government the Progressive Conservative government over told Manitobans that they would keep the things the last eleven and a half years of governing, that the previous government got right. I can tell they actually have inherited the tremendous you today that one of the things the previous benefits of good planning and a balanced budget. administration got right was the knowledge that Of course, when they repeat their inaccurate a competitive economic environment is the views so often, they actually begin to believe fo undation to the growth that benefits all them. This is going to create a problem in the Manitobans. Like so many other promises made next two years. it has been broken and long fo rgotten by members opposite. I said before that the speaker before me talks like he is still in opposition and maybe some of Today the progress and momentum that we the Opposition members still talk like they are in had has been halted. Today we have a government, but I believe everybody here needs government that is not committed to keeping to work in the best interest of our province. Manitoba competitive and that is not committed to ensuring that our children have opportunity *(17:10) right here at home. If there is not a commitment to ensure that the economic climate in Manitoba Over the past decade, Manitoba has proven is competitive and strong, the only use we are that it can be a competitive province. It has going to have for our highways is fo r our young moved from an attitude of have-not to can do, people and our businesses who are using them to but make no mistake that was not an easy go west and east. transition. It was achieved by a previous government that had a vision fo r what our It does not have to be this way, Mr. Speaker. province could be and fo r what our residents Thanks to the fo resight and work of the prev ious could become. It was not a quick transition. I am government there has never been a better sure that many members on this side of the opportunity in this province to reduce taxes and House and the Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns), to chart a course fo r long-term economic growth fo r example, could speak at length about the in Manitoba. Ultimately that is what the long and difficult task it was to bring our residents of my constituency expect from this province into a situation where it was once again Government. They are looking for the moving forward and not borrowing on the hopes Government to fo ster an economy that will of tomorrow. provide them with a competitive tax We do not want to see this new Government environment and that will fo ster economic waste the opportunity that was handed to them growth which brings with it opportunity. when they took office. Unfortunately, I am not sure if the current Government truly understands As a member of this Legislature, I must just how easy it is to let an advantage slip away express that we have a deep concern fo r the and how difficult it is to get it back. They had future of this province. This Budget, presented the good fortune of being elected into a situation on April I 0 by Today's NDP, is a stirring 580 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 l reminder of how similar they are to yesterday's people must manage to create wealth, to be NDP of the '80s. As citizens begin to grasp the efficient so as to compete and be good stewards seriousness of our happy spenders they have and prudent planners so as to stay alive in the expressed a loss of confidence in Manitoba's real and competitive world. government. Spending habits are extremely difficult to change, and when the purse strings Mr. Speaker, this is not to say that are being held by people who have not had to governments should not invest in our province. handle money before it gives us all a little bit of Indeed investments in such areas as highways, a scare. infrastructure, education and health care are important and legitimate functions of The challenge and requirement of people in government that provide a long-term return to business is to earn ficientsuf money to operate the people of Manitoba. The residents of my their business. The after-tax portion of their constituency support these investments and earnings must be sufficient to provide for proper encourage them. Some of the speakers on the facilities, replacement of worn fixtures or Government side of the House have said that the equipment, modernization and remodeling, Opposition cannot determine whether they want research and development. In the end, a business taxes cut or spending increased. survives because of good management and entrepreneurial skills. Business must work think that, when you talk about constantly at planning and constantly plan their management, you talk about both. You can do work. However, in government, there is often a more things with less money if you have proper lack of initiative to provide good planning since management, good planning, careful investment. all they need to do is collect the revenue and to I believe that the lessons that businesses have to cover their initiatives with spending. Planning learn to stay alive are lessons that we could use that would reduce the need fo r tax dollars, I in the business of managing taxpayers' money, think, should be included in our Budget in that the business of running a government. Residents Manitobans would benefit from a longer-term of my area also know that every additional dollar plan. that is spent does not equate to a dollar of improved service or more success. We have This Government may not have planners noticed that it is easy to throw money at issues. who have had to meet payrolls, who have been Oh, here is $18.3 million for some new involved with risky investments, who have had equipment. Here is $10 million fo r a new to create innovative systems to be competitive or initiative. The money just can fly as if there was who have had to exercise frugal management of no respect fo r the people who earned that limited resources. Risk takers need a strong money, but it does not have a corroborating stomach and a firm resolve. While there are benefit. It is as if we are buying things fo r $5 numerous similarities between skills needed in million, poorly managed, poorly invested, that managing business and the business of managing gives us a $2-million benefit. This is not fair to taxpayers' dollars, in a business, all the money taxpayers. We need to manage the money with comes from the customers. It goes to wages, respect for the taxpayers because we are going to suppliers, overhead, debt repayment and, kill them, drive them out of the province, destroy hopefully, some goes into taxable income. In their businesses, take away jobs, if we do not government, all of the money comes from the have respect. people as well. Hopefully, it leaves taxpayers with sufficient funds to grow the province's Residents of the Steinbach constituency are employment and trade. Taxpayers' money must known as good managers, I can say that, good be well managed to effectively and efficiently managers of their businesses, of their homes and provide citizens with needed services like health of their communities. Of course, you know one care, education and social programming. of the things that good management is reflected in, there are about 52 000 people in the southeast The main issue is managing money. regional health unit, and the average cost to the Governments can tax and spend as if there is no province, health care cost for these people, is tomorrow, but citizens, taxpayers, productive $600 per person. I understand that the average April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 581 cost in Manitoba is $2,300 per person, so I do ratepayers of MPIC to the universities. In fact, not know if we are that badly underfunded, but Mr. Speaker, I am confident that the vast maybe we are good managers of our bodies, our majority of my constituents support general health, our time. It is maybe a lesson that people government funds going to post-secondary should listen to in government to see what good education. I have been on the board of governors management is all about. The key is good of a university in British Columbia since 1981 management. It is not simply spending more and I realize the need for funding. Although we money. operate primarily without government funding, it is important to the students to get the maximum benefit during the period of years when they are Success often lies in developing better ways fast learners. of doing things, and yet this is an idea that has not seemed to reach the offices of this So as a strong believer of higher academic Government. This is a government who is not pursuits, I am also a supporter of these looking fo r ways to save money but rather institutions in Manitoba, but I am not a supporter looking simply for ways to spend money. That is of back-door taxes. So while the idea of funding the way it appears. They are not looking fo r universities is quite acceptable, the attempt to do ways to improve the health care system but are so with back-door taxes on the backs of content to spend millions of dollars on bricks insurance ratepayers is simply a bad example, an and mortar to fu rther an ideological view. example of weak and bad management. It is also Unfortunately, ideology does not save lives, and a sign of disrespect of the intent of those funds. it does not service patients. Doctors and nurses It is a demonstration of a government whose do. This Government has clearly shown that it attitude and ideology is that all the money in its does not have a plan to improve the health care possession is within its right to spend and that system. they should be unaccountable for it. Fortunately, * (17:20) the people of my constituency and of Manitoba held them to account fo r their actions. I have a clipping here from the National Post that says that, a study that was done in We can see this attitude in the approach Saskatchewan: Medicare requires desperate and taken to other Crown corporations as well, Mr. sweeping changes before it is crushed under the Speaker. This Government is unwilling to tell weight of bad management, bad management, Manitobans that it will not continue to raid from excessive costs and an institutional culture per­ those corporations, such as Manitoba Hydro, fe ctly at odds with the provision of quality care. because it believes that the money paid does not That is just one of the articles that has shown up belong to the users of the system but rather to recently in the national newspaper. them. Indeed, one of the things residents of my area continue to tell me is that we need people in Industries and companies that changed their government who are good at managing money. cultures produced better quality and provided Anybody can spend money, but just taxing and more value fo r money. Those that did not not managing is irresponsible. When the Finance disappeared. Minister begins tossing around figures in the millions and the billions of dollars, it is very Pouring more money into a system with easy to fo rget where that money came from. The known inefficiencies will not improve it. Indeed, money came directly out of the pocket of new money may provide yet more excuses fo r taxpayers, who worked hard likely to earn it. not becoming more efficient. Because you are Governments have no money except for what throwing good money after bad, you are they get from taxpayers. With that comes an multiplying the inefficiencies instead of going awesome responsibility and awesome choices. into some good planning, good studies and Members of this side of the House have made it maximum benefit for the dollar that is invested. very clear that their choice would be to return significant amounts of those tax dollars to the We need look no fu rther than the people who earned them. I am sorry that this Government's attempt to funnel money paid by Governmenthas chosen not to make that choice. 582 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April IS, 2001

Mr. Speaker, I noticed on the Budget potato producing capacity? There simply are not documents that they feature a picture of a enough excuses for this Government to hide number of young students in a classroom behind. environment, all with their hands raised. No doubt the photo is designed to show these young So questions are being asked by residents of people prepared to answer a question, yet in the southeastern Manitoba about this Government's years to come I wonder if these school-age commitment to the rural economy. This Budget children and others across the province might did not provide any indication on how the not have their hands raised to ask questions Government intends to build and diversify the about this Budget. Certainly I can speculate that rural areas of Manitoba. If we should not grow fr om my constituency there would be a number oilseeds and seed grains, then what should we of questions asked. One question that would be do? This takes a large investment when you are asked is: Why did the Government, when it was going to change the course of your business. increasing spending by the hundreds of millions This is a government that has a democratic of dollars, not offer some hope and incentives to responsibility to govern for all Manitobans, not farmers who are undergoing a very difficult just people who are organized in trade unions. It time. is time to begin taking that responsibility seriously. Very often we talk about farmers as a small percentage of the province. We talk about So, Mr. Speaker, in speaking with residents farming as too traditional. We talk about farmers of my region, the two words that perhaps best as not varying their crops sufficiently. You sum this Budget up are missed opportunity. know, the farm industry is a link in the chain of Opportunity is an interesting thing. It is some­ our economy. It is such an important link in the thing that if you take and capitalize on, it can chain of our economy, and if you took your benefit you fo r years to come, but the flip side is truck and were pulling a car out of the ditch, if that it also is something that if you missed, it can one link breaks, you lose it. It is gone. Every link haunt you fo r years to come. When residents is important, and the farming link to the came to the southeast corner of the province to economy in Manitoba is a vital link. If we break settle it, it would have been easy to understand that link it will affect our schools, our churches, had they been pessimistic. It was an our hospitals, our stores, our welding shops, our undeveloped land that on the face of it only implement dealers. These are all people who will offered the promise of long hours of work. Yet be affected if we break the link in our economy, residents saw opportunity and they have shown the link called agriculture. what can happen when it is acted upon.

So it is far more serious than some people This Budget presented the Government with will let on. Just because some of them live in possibly more opportunity than any government yellow dog country, there is no reason not to has ever had in the history of Manitoba. It pursue the benefits of that part of our economy. presented the opportunity to significantly cut taxes and to send a message to the rest of Another question that might be asked is: Canada that indeed the door is open for business Why can provinces like Saskatchewan offer a in Manitoba and the door is closing on our youth single-earner family of fo ur making $60,000 a leaving for other provinces. The numbers show lower rate of personal income tax than that with increased revenue from Canada Health Manitoba? Members opposite like to point out and Social Transfer payments, lottery revenues, that it cannot be expected that we remain sales taxes, payroll tax, the options are available. competitive with a province like Alberta, which This Government had an opportunity to fu nd the benefits from oil revenue, but Saskatchewan, areas and services that Manitobans consider key Mr. Speaker? while still providing them with the breaks they deserve if it had the opportunity to ensure that How long until they will tell Manitobans the reputation we have developed as a can-do that we are unable to compete with provinces province does not revert back to a have-not like Prince Edward Island because of their vast province. April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 583

* (17:30) will just get out of it, but it is a disservice to the tenants. As a person who has spent 36 years as a business owner, a great deal of time building and So I am very concerned about the businesses developing business, dealing with customers and leaving the province. I am very concerned about with staff and suppliers, Mr. Speaker, I can tell the jobs leaving the province. I think we have you that there is no more valuable asset that a just seen the beginning of it unless our policies business owns, small or large, than its will be turned around and changed at some reputation. While it take years to establish that point. I am very concerned about what the reputation, it only takes a short time to have it Budget does for health. Just throwing money at diminished. Much of Manitoba's reputation as a issues does not work. good place to invest, a good place to do business was wiped away last year by this Government's This Budget did not provide a introduction of anti-business labour laws. Even comprehensive long-term plan for health care. today in my own constituency, some of the The Government has not provided a plan to effects of this Government's labour legislation is improve efficiency in the spending and being fe lt. So this Budget was an opportunity to management of health care. What this polish up the reputation of our province and to Government does provide is an ad hoc approach show Manitobans and Canadians that we are to health care. Every time they fe el they need to committed to moving forward and not moving make an announcement, they make another backward. Sadly, this Government chose not to announcement. Indeed, they have admitted that make those decisions, but rather return to the they have failed to keep their commitment to free-spending ways of yesterday's NDP. We can eliminate hallway medicine. We have not seen only hope that the cost of this lost opportunity is health spending increases like this ever before, not measured in lost jobs and lost young people. $469 million over the 1999-2000 Budget. That is a 22% increase in two years, that coming on top I also noticed in the Budget that the rent of an increase prior to that. controls on new projects was changed from five years to fifteen years. I have spoken with So, Mr. Speaker, I believe that we have to landlords, as recently as this morning, and they tell you we are going to vote in a non-confidence have said that will not change the amount of motion because we think we could have done a money needed to be invested in housing fo r lot better. I believe we have missed downtown Winnipeg. Downtown Winnipeg is opportunities. I believe we do not manage well desperately in need of some support in its enough, and I believe that we should review housing areas. Even on the issue of rent control, what is happening in the province of Manitoba Glen Murray sounds remarkably free market. He so that our children and our grandchildren will says that if the Ontario Tories deem this topic have a brighter future. Thank you for the too controversial, Mr. Murray does not. He was opportunity of representing Steinbach asked recently about Manitoba's decades-old constituency. policy, and he was clear on the rent controls. He said: dump it. What would drive a bread-and­ Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): I am very, very butter socialist such as Mr. Murray to dismiss proud to rise today to speak in favour of the the idea of rent control? Try nearly 30 years of Budget, in favour of a positive, growing failed public policy. Historically, rent controls Manitoba with a very positive vision fo r all were widely used by governments across North Manitobans. I am proud to be part of a America. Today, I think Manitoba is the only governmentin which all citizens are represented. province in Canada that still has it. So we are The seniors, those on fixed incomes, youth, losing the input and reinvestment in our housing children, families, farmers, people in rural and this is attracting slum landlords. This is Manitoba, people in the city, people in northern attracting arsonists. We are losing it because we Manitoba, business people and, yes, indeed, do not have the fu nds to put back in, and it is a even corporations. All races, all ages are disservice to the tenants not necessarily to the represented by our Government and are landlords. In the long run, the landlords probably considered by our Government. We are not a 584 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 government fo r the fe w. We are a government increase of funding to education. That is a huge fo r all Manitobans, no matter what or where they commitment to the future. We have had a 10% are. decrease in post-secondary tuition costs last year, and again a freeze this year. So, therefore, We are also optimists. We believe in we are making education more affordable. building again. I am very pleased to see that in Manitoba the population is actually increasing. We have a commitment to spend $100 After I 0 years of decreasing population, the million dollars in capital funding. The members population is getting larger. I am very proud of opposite often talk about making long-term the fact that we ranked fo urth out of all plans and good management decisions. It is not provinces for expected growth, and that is from good management to let your infrastructure The Globe and Mail. They say we have a very, deteriorate. It is not good management to have very strong, vibrant economy, and it is a broad your buildings become such a state of disrepair based economy, not just on the vagaries of the that it costs more to fix them. It is good to price of oil, but it goes up. We have a strong continue with planned maintenance. It is good to economy that is broad based and deals with continue with planned replacement and fix the multi areas of economic well-being. buildings before it becomes dangerous and before they require huge capital spending, and We are also working very hard every day to we are doing that. improve the quality of life. We are a party that listens. We are a government that listens. I was I am very pleased that we are looking after proud to be part of a party that actually has establishing bursary programs so that people budget consultations throughout the province, in have access to education. It should not be a all areas of the province. I was a participant in society where only people with money have many of those consultations. access to education. We need a society where all people, regardless of income, have access to We had graduated licenses, where we went education, and I am proud to be part of a out to the people and listened to them before we government that has established a bursary had made up our minds. We actually got program that was not even considered by the information from the people, from all regions of previous government. people so that we could look and listen and deliver a program that would make sense fo r all I am proud to be part of a government that Manitobans. I am proud to be part of the deals with children with special needs. We did Government that actually has a disability white not just get a special needs review paper done by paper to look after those who are disabled, who the Department of Education. What we did is we gives them a chance to improve their quality of are starting to act upon it. We are starting to life. implement a lot of its proposals and its sugges­ tions. We have increased the number of people We have a quote here from Franklin attending college. College jobs are the jobs that Roosevelt. The test of our progress is not do the bricks and the mortar. They are the whether we add more to the abundance of those computer technicians. They are the trades who have much. It is whether we provide people, the apprenticeship people, and these are enough fo r those who have too little. I am proud the jobs that really make a difference in our to be part of a government that does deliver society. enough to all Manitobans, those in need as well asthose who are the average Manitobans. * (17:40)

I will start talking now about some of the I am very pleased that one of the areas of the things that we have done and that I am proud of largest increase in the education budget is for our Government. First, education. We are special ed. Then the next one of the larger ones looking after our children. We are fo cusing on is also the apprenticeship, and that is planning the future of Manitoba, and, of course, children fo r the future. The previous government ignored are our future. We have had a $47-million apprenticeship programs. We are trying to bring April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 585 them back so that we actually have the people, Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Sp eaker, in the the electricians, the plumbers, the cooks, et Chair cetera, that will help our economy exist in the future. We need to do this before the average age The other thing that I am happy about is that ofthe journey people become past the retirement we are spending money into areas that will age, and we are not able to reclaim those skills. create large economic growth in our province in the future. An example is the money that we are I am really happy with our Red River investing in Manitoba's future such as Stevenson campus initiative downtown Winnipeg, first, by Aviation. We have gone from $1.4-million the fact that we are setting up a number of new fu nding fo r Stevenson Aviation to $2.36 million. programs and courses and initiatives. What those What that means is that we will have the trades are, they are the technological, they are the next so that we can continue to expand our aviation generation of economic well-being fo r our industry. We have a great fo othold with province. More importantly, we are also starting companies like Boeing, Standard Aero, Air to focus on the rejuvenation of a downtown Canada, et cetera, which create huge Winnipeg, and that is necessary. We need to employment opportunities. We can be the spend some time on developing our inner city. maintenance base fo r all of North America. I am That is not just for the inner-city residents, for pleased that we have the opportunity to tie all residents, because it does make a difference education in long-term planning to economic for all people because, if we allow the property activities and employment opportunities, so that tax assessment to drop in the inner city, we will we can continue to plan for the future and make not have the money to run the city infrastructure our province a wonderful place to live for the and all people's taxes will have to go up. That long term. way, if our Government works hard to develop infrastructure and the tax base in the inner city Let us talk a minute about health care. and we rejuvenate the inner city that has been Health care is a huge issue. What have we done languished by the previous government, then in health care? We have expanded the BN what happens is we will, in fact, improve program; we have implemented an RN program, everything, the tax base in our city for all implemented an LPN program. We have almost citizens. tripled the number of nurses in training right now, and that is in only 18 months. The previous government talks about long-term planning. We One of the most telling commitments that I are actually doing the long-term planning to know of from the previous governments, they make sure that we have the people there to make attend bursary meetings and say: What are you the health care system work. If we had continued doing? What have you done as far as tuition, as on the past course we would have been down the far as helping the students? Well, I would like to road to disaster. go through some of the support for schools from the previous government: In 1993-94, there was The new diagnostic equipment. We have a negative 2 percent from the previous announced new diagnostic equipment worth government; '94-95, negative 2.6; '95-96, zero; about $20 million, but we first had to do the '96-97, negative 2; '97-98, zero; '98-99, finally renovations to have the buildings fit them. We we have a positive number or a positive had to have qualified people. Then we have to commitment of money to the public school order the equipment. We are doing it right by education by the previous government, and that doing proper long-term planning and replacing was a measly 2.2 percent. I am pleased to be part the equipment that should have been replaced of a government that has increased education many years ago. Within 18 months we are funding by 2.6 percent or $19.8 million last year replacing it, and I would like to see what we are and 3.8 percent, a 29.7% increase this year. In doing in the future there so that we can get the other words, we have increased education waiting lists down to a reasonable level. But we funding more in the last two years than the have started, and I am proud of an 18-month whole decade, and I am pleased to be part of that legacy where we have decreased the waiting government. 586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001

lists, not the I 0-year legacy of neglect that has Some of the economics. The members previously occurred. opposite often talk about economics. Let us talk about economics. First Hydro. This is a I am also happy to see that we have a lot of corporation that many years ago the members incentives to keeping doctors in northern opposite-you keep on saying we are raiding Manitoba, also increasing the number of doctors Hydro-this is a government opposite, when they entering the medical school, and allowing them were in power, started off back-door taxing, and some tax savings through incorporation and by back-door taxing I am talking about having a through other ways of making them fe el positive tax on water rates. They did not do it by putting in Manitoba and be able to have a good practice it out in the Hydro report or whatever; it was in in Manitoba. the back, the appendices of the Budget documents and of the Hydro. We, on the other hand, are saying that we are using Hydro for the We also established new emergency benefits of all Manitobans while still providing vehicles. The previous government, they say that one of the lowest hydro rates in North America. they represent all Manitobans. We, in our first Not only that, we are also using Hydro for the 18 months, bought about 80 ambulances and economic benefit fo r all. We are exporting medical vehicles to move people to the hospitals Hydro and making money there. We are also from the emergency sites. We also beefed up the bringing in businesses that need good, stable, Winnipeg site. What is nice about that is that we low-priced hydro rates for economics. So we are have then started to have a transportation system hoping to attract investment in Manitoba, and that works. We do not have to wait hours and that is a positive, fo rward, long-thinking process. hours for ambulances. We have new ambulances in rural Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, and we * (17:50) have better equipment there so that people can do their job. I am pleased about that. Mr. Speaker in the Chair

We also have better co-ordination of We are also investing in the new economy. I emergency rooms. The former government starts notice the members opposite, their major eco­ talking about management. What we have done nomic fo cus seemed to be in telemarketers. Yes, is we have co-ordination so that the emergency telemarketers are important. Yes, all segments of vehicles do not necessarily go to the closest our society are important, but we are trying to hospital; they go to the hospital that has look for higher value-added jobs, places like available space, so people are looked after V ansco, Air Canada, jobs like this where what appropriately. That is a very good management you want to do is get high value-added so that tool to use vacancies and to use the existing staff we can compare. without creating new. The tax burden is shared by far better when The other thing that I would like to you expand the tax base, you expand the pie so demonstrate is our commitment to child and you have people earning higher incomes. If they family. We start talking about our increases. earn high incomes and they have a higher value­ Some of our increases are to children's special added, then what happens is the tax base is schools, child care, child protection and support, shared evenly among people and then people can community living, programs to deal with adults have their rates dropped without a drop in with mental disabilities getting rehabilitation and services. becoming vocationally able to go into the community. These are programs that allow people to have dignity and have real jobs and So what we are doing is we are not maintain real jobs. That is something I am proud decreasing the pie, we are expanding the pie. of. We should not just ignore people with There is proof on how we expand the pie. First, disabilities. We should not ignore those people more people are moving to Manitoba. Second, on the fringes of society. We should be able to the vacancy rate has decreased. So people are provide the support to allow them to become not moving out of Manitoba. In fact, they are positive contributing parts of society. moving into Manitoba. There are a lot of new April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 587 buildings being built. It is the first time in prenatal period. I applaud the Minister of Family decades that we have seen cranes down in Services (Mr. Sale) for his work in developing Winnipeg. There is economic activity all through this new prenatal supplement. I would applaud the province. Buildings are being built. Factories all those on the Healthy Child Initiative for are being built. Infrastructure is being built. It is working to create a better environment fo r kids a nice pleasure to see, because we are expanding to be raised and brought up in Manitoba. The the pie, not contracting it. funding for child care of an increase of 7.7 percent will increase the wages of those working in the industry, increase the number of spaces Other things that I am proud of, we are and increase the number of special needs kids finally addressing issues in the environment. I that can be assisted in that. think it was horrendous when the previous government started to charge for drinking water. Drinking water is something that should be By creating recreation programs, you are tested, chiefly so that people can have safe preventing people from having to go to jail. It is drinking water. When the previous government cheaper and more effective to prevent than privatized drinking water, what they said was punish. I am happy to see that we are a part of an that those who can afford can have safe drinking optimistic government, a government that cares water, and those who cannot, do not deserve to about kids, to provide them positive alternatives have safe drinking water. That was a shame. I to getting into gangs, et cetera. We do not want am proud of being part of a government that is to adopt the point where we hire more police, providing subsidies fo r those to test water so that more jails, et cetera. Let us open the gyms, let us people can be given not a privilege of having open the recreation facilities, so that kids have a safe drinking water, but the right to be having positive place to go. safe drinking water and knowing that it is safe.

Let us talk long-term planning as far as I also applaud the Government fo r the finance. The previous government had a ecological tax credit to preserve wetlands. Those balanced budget. How did they create it? They who are aware know that the wetlands are very sold an asset. They sold MTS and then they took important not only to act as a filter, but also fo r the money from that sale and put it into the daily the whole creation of oxygen, et cetera. I am spending. That is like selling your house, paying proud that we are actually creating a tax credit so off your debts and paying all your expenses and people can take marginal land out of production then at the end of a few years having nothing. and make it so that it is environmentally safe. Well, that is just backwards financial planning. What we did was we enhanced the balanced Let us talk about some of our long-term budget legislation. Not only are we paying the planning. The members opposite talk about the debt, and we are paying the debt at $96 million, lack of planning. Mr. Speaker, $25 million worth not $75 million but we are also addressing the of flood protection fo r long term is good long­ long-term pension liability. Now, as a financial term planning; $40 million to hopefully leverage planner, I know that if you take the money and fe deral and civic contributions will be wonderful you invest it and you invest it well, you will long-term flood planning fo r the floodway; $1 actually earn a return of greater than 6 percent million to drainage. The previous government which we pay for our debt. What will happen is cut drainage to all of rural Manitoba, and what that you will address the long-term pension we hope to do with this million dollars is start liability. If we had not addressed the long-term addressing some of the long-term problems in pension liability that would have exceeded our there. debt within a few decades and then we would have gone broke. What we have done is we have The Healthy Child Initiative and our recent addressed the long-term pension liability, we announcement of prenatal support will be long­ addressed the balanced budget legislation so that term planning for all Manitobans. What happens you cannot sell an asset and live off the interest is that all studies have shown that it is essential fo r a fe w years, and we also addressed the whole to have good nutrition and good care in the idea of paying down the debt in an intelligent 588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 manner, and I am proud to be part of that. You of all Manitobans. We are introducing legislation do not sell an asset fo r a short-term gain. to make sure that it is not sold fo r a short-term gain, and it will be used for all Manitobans. We look back at MTS and in the case of MTS we Another thing, taxes. We are part of a were told that the rates will not go up. We were government that has increased the property tax told that this is a corporation that would not do credit from $250 to $400. This will enable well. seniors to stay in their houses longer. It will enable people on fixed incomes to be able to afford to live in their homes. By tying that Well, the only people who did well are the together with home care, people can live in a people who bought shares on the IPO, on the better environment longer and be very initial public offering, and made huge profits on comfortable, and we need to do that. This $400 them and now all Manitobans, those on fixed contribution actually cut taxes in Winnipeg on incomes, et cetera, are suffering from the short average 6 percent in the city tax and 9.4 percent vision of the previous government. in the rest of the province, and that is a huge start on property tax. We actually had tax cuts in I am also pleased to be part of a government excess of$29 million this year. that has provided money fo r agriculture and is also fo cussing on agriculture and assisting and We have also cut 4000 from tax rolls, and I pushing the fe deral government to do that. So, am proud to say that we have started working on Mr. Speaker, I close by saying thank you very small business taxes, cut them from 7 percent to much fo r giving me the opportunity to represent 6 percent and by 2002 to 5 percent. We have the people of Assiniboia and- also increased the categories where it is considered a small business from $200,000 Mr. Speaker: Order. income to $300,000, so the threshold will help more small businesses thrive. Mr. Rondeau: I am done.

We are also, I am proud to say, the first Mr. Speaker: Order. For clarification, has the government since the Second World War to cut honourable Member fo r Assiniboia completed corporate taxes. The members opposite talk his speech? about not being responsible. They had an opportunity to cut corporate taxes; they chose not to. We are helping all Manitobans by cutting Mr. Rondeau: Yes, I have. small business, middle-income, low-income and corporate taxes as well as property taxes. I am Mr. Speaker: Okay. When this matter is again proud of that. before the House, the debate will remain open. The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned As far as hydro, we are using it and I am and stands adjourned until 1 :30 p.m. tomor­ very pleased that we are using it for the benefit row (Thursday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday April IS, 2001

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Circuit Court System Derkach; Mackintosh 542 Ministerial Statements Praznik; Mackintosh 543

Flood Conditions Court System Lath lin 537 Praznik; Mackintosh 544 Pitura 537 Maintenance Enforcement Office Gerrard; Mackintosh 544 Tabling of Reports

Gilbert Park Tenants' Association Annual Report of the Ombudsman-Access Reimer; Sale 546 and Privacy fo r the year ending December 3 I, 1999 East St. Pau I Hickes 538 Schuler; Selinger 546

Annual Report of the Manitoba Round Table Members' Statements fo r Sustainable Development fo r the fiscal ending March 31, 2000 Farm and Food Day Lathlin 538 Pitura 548

Five Year Report of the Ecological Reserves Health Care Initiatives fo r the period April I, 1994 to March 31, Dewar 548 1999 Lath lin 538 Spending/Tax Cuts Ratio-Budget Dyck 548

Introduction of Bills Red River College Expansion Asper 549 Bill 200-The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act Maintenance Enforcement Office Schuler 538 Gerrard 549

Oral Questions ORDERS OF THE DAY

Budget Budget Debate (Fourth Day of Debate) Murray; Doer 538 Loewen; Selinger 540 Driedger 550 Gerrard; Selinger 545 S. Smith 558 Korzeniowski; Lemieux 545 Gilleshammer 565 Ashton 571 Healthy Baby Initiative Jim Penner 576 Mitchelson; Sale 54 1 Rondeau 583