PP: 85 't6 . of/ 7o.f,r

The following interview with Mr. Gordon James Cavanagh was recorded for the Battye Library Oral History Programme on the

22nd August, 1975 by Jean Teasdale. Mr. Cavanagh talks mainly about the early days of the 20th century in the Esperance area as well as the Ravensthorpe and Norseman areas.

You wanted where I was born. I was born at Kilkenny, South

Australia, came across to Western Australia in 1896.

How old were you then?

About 18 months. We arrived 1n Norseman December 96. We lived there till about the end of 98 or 99. And my father worked at the Battery. Government Battery that was and Mum and the f our boys we turned in a fruit van, a bloke named Hungry Harrison.

Jack Harrison was his name but they called him Hungry, went back to Esperance. And we lived there until my family left there in

1940 and my mother ....

Do you remember much about Norseman? While you were living in

Norseman. I ... '~ . ~~ ...... afterwards off an on that's all. But I had a sister born at Esperance, in fact I had two sisters born at Esperance, one before the turn of the century and one after it.

And when I was nearly ten I went to work- for Brook's Station. Coming through from Israelite Bay ... ~ ... a mob of sheep. And I had my llth birthday sitting up on Moutn Edward. Do you know where Mount Edward is? No.

It's about ten mile out before you get to Mt. Merrivale. And I worked with that mob of sheep through to Norseman , Southern Hills .

What was the purpose of that? Were you taking them to market or.

No. It was a very, very bad year. 1906 that was and he was bringing sheep down near Dempster Station, ...... come down that way .....

How big a mob?

Just on a thousand. But half of them got poisoned near the Thomas River.

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Were you the only one shepherding them? No, we had natives with him then. And it was burnt country and nobody woke up to the poison that shot up and · ~ - ~ ···>~ for a couple of days and I finished up with 450 of those sheep. And

then he sold his wagon and horses there and he wanted to sell

some sheep but he had to go on to Norseman, the butcher there, so we went around that way, travelling 8 mile a day, that's about all.

You had your horse and dog and .... y~~~- ~~... you were on foot. You went that slowly. When he had this break up with the poison of the sheep, with his natives,

one native woman got sick and he brought her to the doctor at

Esperance. She was talking to me before she got to the town. She'd

never seen a town, but she was dead when he brought her to the

doctor's place. Well that meant, the natives went and he had a bloke named Billy ~r a few weeks with him, then he had an old Scotchman called Chambers. Scotty Chambers for six weeks and old then I and another/chap went out and .....

And was it a tribe? A particular tribe helped you shepherd .....

No the natives went. But before that, did they follow you and cook for you and so forth?

Oh no. The natives you mean? Yes.

Oh no. When this woman died, native woman, her husband and the

other natives they'd go, they won't stop and that was the end, you see. Well that's when he C ~ for a few weeks and Billy left him and he got Scotty Chambers. He was a ... Qeer. bloke that knocked around Esperance. A ~ -· by profession but a bum by profession too. He was a drunk. Well then he was at it for six weeks and of course he wanted more beer and an old swaggy and

I went out to give him a hand with the sheep and then the swaggy

stopped a few weeks and he went on and Scotty come back again and

then another kid come out named Doust, stopped for a few weeks and

he cleared out and then we had a half-caste named Jimmy Yeats and

he went on to Norseman, right on to Southern Hills. You know

where Southern Hills is? Yes. And then we picked up some natives 3 • there that used to work for Brooks and Jimmy came back to

Esperance. Well we went right near Balladonia and down to Bal ~~ and I was there nearly three years. I learnt to shear there and

learnt a lot about sheep. Well they brought me back to go to

school. I was about thirteen years and nine months old ......

You'd never been to school.

Oh very little. And I wasn't much of a scholar. Figures I was all right to ...... I could work figures out but other things I was pretty slow. I didn't seem to be interested. Anything outside yes., but then I worked as a surveyor for a few months and then

I went through to Katanning with a mob of horses for Daws. And I worked on their orchard for a few months and then I worked for ... they tried to get me back to school, I think they did for two or

three weeks. I worked as a surveyor and in 1912 I went up to

Shepherd's farm .... I did a lot of fencing, around helping with . ~ . but I went up to Shepherd's Farm at Grass Patch and I was there from about October 1912 to February 1914. Then I went down to Esperance. I worked on the salts. And I was working on

the road near Gibson Soak when the war broke out. And a couple

of months after that I went to the war.

How old were you then?

19.

What did you join?

I was working on the road about a mile form Gibson Soak . They were

going to put a railway line down there. What age would I have

been? I would have been 19. Yes I turned 19 just about that time.

And I came up here to Perth in 1914. I was too late. They wouldn't

take any more recruits till January 15 and I went away in April

1915. I was on the sea going over when the landing at the

Dardenelles. Well I was there about 4 months and after the

evacuation I was in hospital the day my.regime~t moved out of the where they were camped and I missed them by a day but they said

they would send for me but they called for volunteers to go to

France in the artillery so I finished up in France.

What did you originally join? Which group ... 4. lOth Light Horse. Yes. And then I was in the 4th. ~

Artillery, 110 .... ~ . ~ - . ~ ...... France. And I was o ne of the lucky ones. I only got smacked slightly a couple of times .

And I was lucky enough to be in London when the Armistice was signed on leave. People don't know that there was two hotels selling grog at the same time at Gibson Soak. Now that building was almost opposite the other one, only one block further north on the opposite side and we used to camp in that and that bui lding was still there when I came back in 1919. It only lasted a few months because things died, you see, but that did open the bar for a few months. What about early Esperance? If you were living in Esperance right from the beginning of the century you must be able to tell me a bit about the early town, the personalities.

Yes. Well you see ..... D ~when they went down in the 60's they were practical men, they knew what they were doing. You know where their old homestead is? Well was you there when the old shed was down near the, right in front, near the beach?

No. Well they had a big two-storey shed there and then a lean-to at the back and they had a little railway line, a little truck line and they used to chart their own ship. I can remember the

Rachel Cowen was one, they were schooners, the Eclipse, Rachel

Cowen, the Eclipse, there was four different ones came at different times .

Where did they come from?

South Australia. Used to charter from South Australia and the wool used to go .. to South Australia.

Well the back of th~t was their original shearing shed but a lot of people don't think it was you see and they reckon that about four or five mile out e~st, that was their first shed but it was not. It was ...... Dempsters had it and they could almost roll the wool off the sheep's back onto the schooners and they had a little truck it used to carry four bails down you see and it went on the dinghies and they used to have a wench or a windlass and they'd pull it out. If they had a chance. ~ ...~ ... it's 5 .

only a couple of hundred yards out from the shed. And that's

/ where Dempster's ~~-l .Ct . 1 But when the town broke out and the people all come, they couldn't bring about 20,000 sheep througQ the town and all there so I suppose , . /.~. ~.~.. ~ v~. t~Y had to shift out. And they built a sort of a stone place and a

lean-tos for a few years, a temporary one, and in 1902 or 1903

there was a bloke named Dick And ~ .. he built a big shed there

and his offsider was a chap named Clem Fre ~rson. I know his two sisters are still living at ~ He was his ~--~~ . at 16. He got killed at ~ -· afterwards and so did my young brother .... - ~ tv-f!..o . ~ .~ ~- . • ...... but they put this big shed up. Well then they used this makeshift place for the kitchen and the mess room

for the shearers and they took the wings off of that and when this

Andoff built this big shed, big new shed, they used the iron off

the other old shed place for a lean-to for keeping sheep dry and

that is, a lot of people think that was the first shed but it was

the third. In fact I had a picture here the other day and I gave

it to Dick Macarthy and all the old shearers with the blades, all

blade shearers you know, outside the shed, and if you go to see

Dick and,,,,, it's supposed to go to the museum at Esperance you 1 ~6~ see. And I gave it to a lady, what ...... you spoke to up there?

Mrs Erickson.

Yes. Well she was supposed to give it to Dick you see and she

didn't. It came back to me, so I gave it to Dick the other day

and all the names of the old blokes and there's only one alive,

that's my brother, he's still alive, is in that mob and he was

working at the shed at the time. But all the rest right through

are all dead. That was Dempster's third shed, not the original shed that some thought it was. Then I seen a letter in the paper

somebody- ~········ that the other shed was but the original shed was in Esperance and the sheep yards was around that and

their big stockyard was on the north side of the old shed about

two hundred yard. Well that was where they had it. And I believe

they shifted that shed, the big one was built out, about 4 or 5 mile out, out at the - ~ · River afterwards, after I lived 6 •

there. But a lot of people get mixed up with that.

And what about the other buildings? You said about going to

school. Was there actually a school house there?

Oh yes. A big brick school. I think one of the Dempsters, old Mrs. Willy Dempster I think had a private school, you know, so much a week, when we first went there.

Can you remember the name of that?

Dempster's. It was called Dempster's.

It was Dempsters from the Grass Valley, it went down there in 64,

1864 you see.

The name of the school. No. I think Mrs. Dempster, that would be one of the sons' wives,

she died of cancer about 1900 there, but oh no, there was a big

brick school. It's pulled down now, they built another one.

Did you go to that school?

Yes. I went there for a little bit. And that was the only school

I knew you see.

Do you remember the Daws.

Oh yes. Yes. I know all the Daws. There's one of them still live

up here somewhere. I saw Mrs. Freeman that was Clara Daw and

Mrs. McGinn. Mrs. McGinn's husband, because she was a Daw you see,

was my first wife's mother's brother. Yea. Ted McGinn. You hear

about him all over the Goldfields. He was a magistrate up there

I think. They used to call him Spin McGinn. Because anybody had

up for playing two-up it used to be a fiver and they call that a spin. But they tell me one day he said to a bloke, "Oh yes." he

said, "You think it's going to be a spin don't you?" In the court.

He said, "You're wrong. It's going to be six today." Yea. Mrs. McGinn and Mrs.~. as far as I know she's still alive. She was last time .... i met Clara, that's Mrs. Freeman. She was up the last Esperance d.-() .

What sort of life did you lead down there? Family life. Did you

have a close-knit family? Did you go on picnics and socials and

things like this? Oh yes .. There was only about 200 people ..... it took in half-way 7. to Norseman, half-way to Ravensthorpe and right down to Eucla.

And there was only about 200 people in that and Balladonia Station and all that, they were all in it.

Did you ever get together?

Oh no, no. Some people you never saw, very seldom, ,,,,,,,,,. -~...... unless they'd gone through on the boat. The steamer coaster used to come through every week to Esperance in those days and every fortnight to Israelite Bay and every three months to Eucla you see. And in those days the drunks from the Pastmaster's Depart- ment they would put them down there you see, instead of sacking them. They'd have one sober man and one or two drunks you see. And that's the way ~~4And that's how a lot of them got down there you see and that's the way it was. It's a funny thing in

1909 after I left there I was talking to one of the G ...... dear old man used to be the Postmaster there ~ t~S~f~...... •.•. that , s the grandfather I suppose ...... •...... •. the booze man there anyhow. He told me ...... he was talking ...... I don't know whether I should mention names, he was telling me about a bloke that had come down drunk ...... • bloke named Croft and his family come away. This Mrs. Oldham, she was a picture .....

Anyhow, I can't just think of his name. He was telling me about this chap, you see, coming down there and oh a terrible drunk.

Anyhow he got lost. He got in the horrors ..... and he died in the sandhills you see. Anyhow about 20 years ago I was talking about those parts and a Miss Gordon said to me, I don't know whether I should mention names, she's still alive, asked me did

I ever know this chap and I said,"Oh yes." I said, "I know. I didn't actually meet him but I know all about him, " I said, and she said, "Well what happened to him?" she said, "He was a terrible drunkard." she said, "I can tell you that." I said,

"Yes. He died in the horrors." And I said, "He's buried at

Israelite Bay." She said, "It was my mother's brother, mu uncle, but we never knew what happened to him." Well I said, "that's what happened to him." And then I went .... Mrs. Oldham was

showing the pictures of the places there and ther's only about 8. half a dozen graves there on a bit of a hill and she showed a picture of this chap's grave and ther's a big ~ of stuff I/)/) ~(( /J/1 - ~ ~ :{- there, ~ . ~- ~ - ~~- -- she told me. I said, "That's looks like it's off a ship." And she said, "I think it is off the wreck of a ship." that was about ten mile away the old

"Franklin" and ...... and this great big thing off a ship was standing up on the grave .... I've never seen Miss Gordon since to tell her you see. Yea. They were the old ... and then the other, there was one of the old Cooks there. He used to be the telegraph linesman and I think she had him as a Postmaster and I said no. And then at Esperance there was a Jim Sinclair, there was a Sinclair family, a Laurie Sinclair family and there was a Jim Sinclair, they were cousins and Jim he had three boys, one was a Rhodes Scholar afterwards and he was a sort of a religious man you see. He kept the church going and the other lot were just the ordinary,,, good people you know but. And then there was another Jim Sinclair, he was Postmaster at Israelite

Bay. He was like a cousin to Laurie Sinclair. Well that's where a lot of people got mixed up with the two Sinclairs and they were both postmasters, Well but the other Jim Sinclair left the Post and the Telegraph and he had the public hotel for a good while and then when the first War was on he left that because it went down dead there at Ravensthorpe ~ ~~ Which hotel was that? The old Metropole?

I don't know which pub it was. It wasn't the one near the wharf. {-ft.._._; LN--o-, f(~ ~ It wasn't. -r· ·

No ••

It'd be the old Metropolitan then, the old Metropole.

I don't know. The old Metropole. There was a bloke named ... I was only thinking the other day, a great rifle shot, he had the hotel near the wharf.

That's the Port Hotel. It might not have been called the Port

Hotel then. I think it changed names . That's now the Port Hotel.

Yes.

It has been for some years. 9 .

...... 9.V. ..~ ...... well before the First World War .

Well there were three. Then they built another one further back but then somebody told me the only hotel that was going there was the one near the wharf.

Yes. And then the old Metropole in the 1930's wasn't going as

a hotel, it was let as rooms.

Oh yes. Yes. And people used to come down from the surrounding areas and use

those rooms in the summer holidays. Yes. I worked for the Ravensthorpe mine in 1911 for about five months and that's when I saw that you see and the Scotch man, he was a great rifle shot, he had it then.

Well there was quite a bit of activity in Hopetown in 1911.

Oh yes.

Because the mines, the copper and the gold mines were in full

swing. And they closed up just before the war. There were a lot

of German and Japanese owned .•.. There were two German brothers. There was the /U-t~ ... . in Ravensthorpe about half a mile out and the ~~- - was about four mile out towards Hopetown. But the Cattlan closed down while I was there and it wasn't long afterwards that the A~ but the Germans company had it and all the copper was going to Germany . . . /)~~ I suppose that's what they shot back at us on the dr1v1ng ......

on the shells afterwards. And then there were the ~ndip mines. That was a gold mine. But that wasn't in the company. And then

there was a goldmine out towards Lake Grace .... •

Hatter's Hill. There was one at Hatter's Hill .

Out three or four mile out, what they used to call the Floater I

think they used to call it. I knew the chap that~~ to

manage it about the turn of the century.

Was that gold or copper?

Gold. Let me see. What is that place? Lake Grace and after you

get to Newdegate and wa ...... where you turn there. Lake King? 10.

Lake King. Yes. Well it's on that road when you're going in to

Ravensthorpe on that road, you would pass this old mine there.

But there were several little small gold shows but the round ...

there was one, there was one out on the hills from the ~~ton~ mine and there was one towards the town. I think Kings ~~~ had it. He used to be a Senator one time and his brother used to

live at Esperance. I think that ..... C ~~~ I don't know exactly who worked that. They were going to open it up again you know,

but they didn't. Well was Hopetown a fairly thriving town. There were a couple of stores there when you were ~~. ~had the store .. • . In Hopetown?

Yes. Well there was a post office, a postmaster I remember that.

Do you remember who the postmaster was in your time?

I couldn't tell you. I just went through, I got on the ship and

came off the ship. See when we went through to Katanning we never went through a town, we kept inland, through the M•.... . stations

and out there ... And we left the telegraph line about half way

between Hopetown and Esperance. And then we come through

Jerramongup and across there ...

And in the Jerramongup area was the ... the large areas owned by

the Hassells.

Yes.

It was only the Hassells then was it?

Yes~ Only the Hassells.

How much land did they have there?

I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you how much, but we stopped

there one night and it was one of the young Hassells there.

Did they have their farming property on the side of the road you

took?

~ uA~ Yes~ We went r1ght. through the old station and up . •• . ~.~ . let

me see, it would be on the norrth side. There was the old

homestead and the kitchen and the cookhouse and the shearing shed,

they were sort of down in the gully. Well on the hill back there 11.

was a very flash house and they reckon that's where the old man that come out from ~ ··· you see, he used to be the Mayor of A. ~ ·· I think, and that's where he used to live, but nobody ever got in that. And there was one young Hassell he was living

in the old house and I always slept there in the night with him

and he was very good company and glad to see us and I met him

after in the Dardanelles and he got killed there . Yeh . ~ . ~. .. .~ . 4ot~· Hassells And he had a sister who was married to a bank manager in Ravensthorpe at that time and they were up at

Merredin afterwards.

Of course that area was all opened up after the Second World War

Oh yes. I went through there four or five years ago. But the new town is about three or four mile up from the old Hassell station

you see, but me having a bit of sheep experience, this young

Hassell, course he was about 19 or 20 I think, but the other

blokes told me it was funny, him and I, I was only 14 you know,

talking sheep you know, having a look at them and talking about

the wool and that, and he told him, he was surprised to see a kid

like me that knew so much about sheep you see .. But they had poison, ~ . ~ p~on. After you left Ravensthorpe going over there you struck poison, as high as the horses and of course we had a buckboard buggy and everything was :J.~. ~ The teamsters coming through used to put nose-bags on their horses but you couldn't take sheep or cattle through there, you had to go up around the coast. One chap, a bloke named Bill~-- V~he brought sheep from Thomas River, that's half-way between Esperance

and Israelite Bay, he took a mob of sheep for this Turnbull, his

wife was Lady Lee-Steer's daughter and had to_ go up, right up to Albany and then up to Mt. Barker with his sheep and that's.~ . a-,r.J?.(· Y~ -~they couldn' cut across or anything. But when we went through with the horses we struck the railway line at Broomt\~ill, and then we went up, stayed a few days before the sale was on, on the 28th October, 1909 and then young Daw, a chap

named Taylor went on to Perth and Teddy McCarthy, that's a 12.

step brother to this Dick that you were talking about, we came back as far as Ravensthorpe with the old Buckboard and then we rode on horseback from there, back to Esperance.

So this was when you were working for Brook.

No. Dawe. I left Brook's in 1909. And you worked for Dawe then. That ,.;as the same year, but they had me going to school for a

little while and then I went out on some other job on a telegraph

line, there was always somebody wanted someone to go on the stock

and then I come from there. In those days with the stock you know you always slept at the Star Hotel. You know where the Star Hotel is? ;l/~ ~ (£4_ ~

Yes. Yes. Well you stopped there with the stars above you and you plucked the little leaves off the trees to make your mattress and

that's the way you lived and then if you were travelling at night

and your horses were tired and they were slow you'd listen if you

could hear the green canaries, they were frogs. If they were

singing out you knew you was coming from the water. Yes ..

Were you ever afraid? You were very young.

No. No. I never liked the howl of a dingo, when I was a kid. I never liked that. But I was never really afraid, you see.

Did you keep the fire burning always?

Oh you slept alongside a log most times in the winter when you was

travelling but generally had a fire going. But of course dingos

and that they smell you so they .•.. and they see your fire and they

howl you see sometimes.

And what sort of food did you, did you shoot on the way? You had your own sheep and you had tinned meat and you made your

damper in the ashes. A real damper. It's a funny thing a few months ago I was out travelling on the bus. ~ Lathlain. I got married againg, you see and my second wife had a stroke and

she's out with her sister out there and anyhow I was coming out of

the bus and a chap, you could hear him all over the bus talking

about how he could make a damper in the camp oven, you see and I 13.

listened to this for a while and when I was getting out before he got out I touched him on the shoulder and I said, "Mate, don't ever tell an old bushman you made a damper in a camp oven. " I said, " You never made a damper in. 1$~ you make it in the ashes."

And he looked at me and he went as flat as a pricked balloon ..... ~~ what he thought afterwards. Well how about explaining to me on tape how you made your dampers.

On a bag. Flour on a bag. If you was travelling with nothing, you only had your bag and your flour and your bit of baking powder.

And you put the flour and you put the water and you mix it up, you

see ...... and you had the ashes, and you just scooped the ashes back like a m. ~~~-'s nest and you put it on that and you cover it with ashes. And there it was.

How long did you leave it there?

An hour All depends on sizes. Well that's the real damper you

see.

And then you bang the ashes off and ....

It just comes off clean, yes. You get a few leaves off the tree and you brush them off ...... Oh yes. I often think back now how we used to live, yeh. Then you'd have to go and track your horse up. ~~ - ~ - ~.. and you'd have a bell on but the bell was that 9ood you could hear the hobbles rattling before you got to. ~ .. No it was a hard life when you come to think of it. What did you used to do when it rained? Did you have anything to

shelter under? You didn't carry tarpaulins or anything with you, did you? Of course if you was travelling with a buckboa~ ~ thing like that, you had a tent. But we had a piece of canvas about 6 ft by about 4 ~nd you just put it up on the one side you see and you slept under that, bits of bushes each end to keep the wind.

And what did you sleep in? Or did you just pull a blanket over yourself?

Oh yes. That's all yes. And I say, off the bushes you see, you

take the top off you see and you fit one on top of the other, like building a haystack you see and that was your mattress. And of

course in the morning you just got up and walked away and left it. 14.

Alongside the road, you see ...... yeh. And did you ever come across tribes? I mean it's a well watered

area down there. Did you ever come across tribes of natives?

No. The nearest natives were round about, you know where the

Trans line is now?

Yes.

Well the nearest natives that hadn't seen a white man were out

past that. What about 1n that area though between Esperance and Ravensthorpe,

there must have been tribes in that area. Oh in the early days. Oh yes. Yes. the M ~ . .# .a.. ~ .. you ~ know and the Dun~, the D~ were about 12 or 14 mile out north of

Ravensthorpe. r.•Jell the Brooks' \vent down there, they were the

first to go down past Thomas River, there was Mrs. Brooks and her daughter and her son. And the Duns, they used to talk about the ~they passed through their place, they passes through the Moyers and they passed through the Dempsters and Mrs. Brooks and

her daughter, Miss Brooks, stopped at the Thomas River while he went on right through to South Australia and back, that was in JtU. f)' Q. s. 74, but there was one of the MeJers killed with the natives. They

used to kill sheep and they had him tied up. Anyhow the gins

gave him some shear blades, you know the old time shears and when l!VLorA ~ he went.~ ...... this nigger stabbed one of the Moy@rs in the

back and he died. Well they were having a lot of trouble with

them and they got permission to shoot them, you see, they had to

get permission through the Government, and then the Duns were

having a lot of trouble and one of them was speared. He come on to some natives killing sheep and they left another one. ~ . for dead. He was still alive then but he was a bit cranky because he

got such a belting up you see. And they had permission to shoot the natives.

What year was this?

Oh that would have been way back in the 80's, 70's or 80's. I used to hear them talking, you know in the . ~~~ and old Miss Brooks told me she was at Israelite Bay and her mother and

her brother was out at Balbinnia about 60 mile out and when the 15.

first camels come through from South Australia to Western Australia,

that was in 94, her little house was on a hill and the old Post

Office was on a , about a quarter of a mile over that way, or

30 chain and they were sort of weatherboard places then, that's

before they built the big stone ones, and she had a bit of a garden and the camels camped down in the flat and there was a well, a public well there, a Government well, and she said, the natives . .! ;J t.V~?....4 Jl_~ had never seen camels and they could kick the camels ~~ --~ ~ - ~ ~when it got dark they wouldn't, they were frightened, so she

went down and sange out, "Anybody here speak English?" and she,

being well educated, she told me, a young chap, perfect English

he spoke and he come over and was talking to her and she told him

what she wanted about sundown and he said, I'll see that the

camels don't. ~ -·~········· "You needn't worry," He said, ..... and of course, I don't know if you'd had any experience with

camels but that nose thing, in the night, well all you've got to

do is put the camel down and tie that line round his leg and he

can't get up you see. Well that's what they do you see. But all this what she'd told me about this ..~~~ ····· there was a young Englishman, he was a surveyor and he had another Englishman with him and I read his diary about 20 years ago. Yes. about

20 years ago. I had a crook back and a chap brought me over the

Western Mail and it was this chap's diary, Englishman, and it

went on for weeks and weeks, so much and you know the exact words

that he told me, that Miss Brooks told me, was in that diary and

he said, "A well educated woman, a Miss X." He didn't put Miss

Brooks you see, but there you go you see, that's all, and I read

that right through. Well old Miss Brooks died in about 27 at

Norseman and Mrs. Holden. I went to see her grave a few years back. It was just ..~. J. A,t. of.-. ti· tu. fA- 0r I went into the Council and all the graves there, they had pegs on but only

wooden ones you see, instead of iron ones and he said, "well it's

from this corner around, I think it's the 11th grave." Well that's

all I could say to find out ... I put the flowers on the llt~

anyhow. A chap took me out from Norseman and anyhow Mrs.~ .. 16.

Mrs. ~isn't it? The woman that writes the books. Erickson. No. No.

Oh Mrs. Oldham. Yes. She writes the books. She's writing one about the Brooks

family. And she sent me some pictures and they put a stone and all on the grave you see. And they're going to put one on the

old lady's, the old mother's grave at Balbinnia and she was here

a few weeks back and I said, "Well I'll give you 20 dollars," you

know to pay for it, but she wouldn't take 20, she said ten was

plenty, you see. But she was asking me different things and of

course I keep thinking of things afterwards, you know, and I

rang her up afterwards and I was telling her, and she said to me. Somebody said to me once. ~~.•...•. at Esperance, was it true that old Mrs. Brooks, she was a bad-tempered, quick-tempered woman, you know, very high in her standard, and when I went there

I was only eleven and she wanted to know what church I belonged to

and I said Church of England and she said high or low? Well damn

it I didn't know whether I was high or low, but that sort of ....

you know. The Bible had to read about 4 times a ...... But

somebody asked me at Esperance was it true that she killed a black

gin, you see, with a waddy. I know she had a fight with one but

I said, no nothing like that, well when Mrs. Oldham was here she

quietly asked me was it right and I said, No. No. No. Nothing like

that. But when she got home I thought, Now there was a black girl

caught fire, she was a girl named Maggie about 15 while I was

there and she died about a week afterwards. We couldn't get her

into the ship and you couldn't do nothing. Old Miss Brooks

nursed her and she said to me, so I told her, I said, "That might

have been mixed up on that." I said. I said, ...... and I was telling her some other things I'd and of course she gets, "Wait

till I get my record." And we talked another half hour you see, and she said to me, "Where was that black girl buried?" and I

said, I hesitated for a minute and I said, "In the orchard."

You sure? I said, "Yes." "On the south side." I said,,"the

bit of an orchard," I said. Well she said, "Old Mr. Brooks is 17.

buried ln the nor-west corner." "Well," I said, "this girl is

buried about half way along." And she said, "Can you tell me where old Mrs. Brooks was buried?" I said, "No, I can't. But I

thought they'd be both together her and her son." And there was

no coffin made for them, they were just wrapped up they tell me.

And of course they were miles from anywhere and I said, "No."

Well she said, "We're going down to put a, fix the grave up and

put the things on and all that," But she thought when he said

his grave is in the nor-west corner but I've always had an idea

he'd be nearer the house and she said, somebody told me she was

buried in the big store room. The ground would be too hard

outside. I said, "No. The store room was 4-f/. $ .~ •• they wouldn't do that, you know, a big shed just down in the - ~ ...... But I think she was buried in the orchard too.

Well they treated you as one of the family, did they?

Oh yes. I was the same as the son.

Because you were only what, eleven? Ten or eleven?

I was thirteen when I left there.

And you lived as one of the family group. ~,f-zdl~ / ~ j/ Oh yes. Yes. They always ...... ~'me coming back again, you know.

I couldn't come back. Especially after the War you know. If

they'd let me stop there, I'd have stopped there in the first

place but they wanted me to go to school ...... you see. Which

I didn't, or very little. What about, now when you came back from Broom~ill and Katanning for the Dawes, where did you end up then? Did you stay on with the Dawes?

Yes. I worked on their orchard for a couple of months at the

D ••••• River. Yes.

And they brought the product in xk from the D ~vr.~· River into ..

Yes. They had a man worki~g there, a manager see. It was orchard time. And he used to go in once a week with a ....

To Esperance?

Yes. I didn't. But he did .....

And did they sell them in the Esperance area or did they put it on the ship or ..... 18.

No. Oh some ...... they had a shop at Ravensthorpe,, ..• . one at Gunj~ one at the ~~~~and the main one at Ravensthorpe and they used to send a lot of their fruit down there you see, down there.

So how did it get down there? On the boats .. ~ . ~ and up by the train. The ship used to come once a week and they'd ship it ....

To Hopetown. From Esperance to Hopetown.

Yes.

And then by dray.-b~

Train.

To Ravensthorpe. That's right. Yes.

They had a train. The train had been running a -year or two.

Before that it was all teams, you see. Same as it was between Esperance and Norseman. Hrs. 'R. Ml~ . asked me to give her all the teamsters' names and the people.~~ - I did write a lot down but I lost the paper, but there was a trade and carrying company

in the early days and they had their own teams they brought across .

Well I knew a lot of chaps that drove for them but they didn't

have their own team you see.

Do you remember the names of any of the teamsters then?

I think Aradine was one, you mean the driver for the company?

Yes. The ones that drove.

Yes. And Jim Carter, that's the only two I can remember that

worked for the company but if you want some others I can give you.

I run through a list the other day, I was going to

write them down. There was Johnny Riley and Saunders and Davies,

Chap. ~ .. , Doust, Jeffries, Treasures, Douglas, they were all

teamsters you see. There was about 40 teams on that road.

How many horses did they have?

Oh from about 6 up to about 10.

And they had big drays.

Wagons It took them about seven days.

And did they have six pulling at a time and six spare ...

Oh no. Everything had to work. It all depended on the size of 19.

the wagon and the size. But mostly about 6 to 8 of them and then there was odd ones bigger you see.

And where did they work from? Esperance to Norseman and camels, there was plenty of camels working. ~ - ~ ·· he had about 35 camels, the Afghan and then there was other smaller ones that had four or five camels.

And where did they work from?

Esperance to Norseman. Did they carry water and goods? Or just water?

The camels didn't, but the teams used to have 100 gallon tank on the back on the tail boards you know and they used to have that for their midday drink for the horses. But they didn't carry water up into .. ~ .~ Oh no. No. The mine at Norseman used to stop about every

Christmas because there was no water and the miners would go away to Kalgoorlie and all over the place you see and then come back later with their families. No. There was a lot of teams. I often think of the names of the different ones but I ...... and

I keep thinking of these names you see and then I forget them.

Where did the teamsters stop in Esperance?

Oh there were houses being built you see and they mostly lived with somebody or lived over the hills. I can remember Riley, team he used to live over the hills in a couple of old houses. ~~ ' Many-'( got. ~ . . and he lived in the town. How long would they stay in Esperance? When the ship came in and then load up and. 4'fV Well the ship used to come in every week then. But then odd times there'd one come from South Australia. But once the~ went down you see, well most stuff came from South Australia, about the turn of the century when the railway line went through this other way.

Up to Norseman.

Yes. There was only one or two ...... well that stuff used to come nearly every week from Albany I think. They'd be seven days up and four back, empty, unless they had something to cart back. 20.

You see and a lot of the old. There was a company at Grass Patch and the manager Gollin was his name and he managed that. Well a lot of the company's horses went there on that farm, they brought them up for that. A carrying company . ~ ~ and some of their drivers was there, you see, went there and that's how I knew about them. But I don't know how many teams were out on the road.

And what did they use, Clydesdales? Or crossbreed?

Clydesdale horses?

Oh yes. Big horses. Yes, all big horses most of them. The company did. Some of them had a bit smaller,,,,,, but they mostly had heavy horses. It was all the wood and everything like that on the Goldfields was all carted with horses then.

And did they ever bring gold down from Norseman? No. I think it went to Coolgardie. They may have brought some down in the early days but it all went to Coolgardie and into the bank there you see and all in that way. Yes. I can remember when a jam tin full of sovereigns was stolen. Well it wasn't.

Of course I won't mention any names because some of the people are still alive. But there was a bloke named ..... oh he was related to the Dempsters, but he had a bit of a show out :~ .. he was managing this show ...... anyway I can't think of his name, it might come to me. He used to have an old buggy and he used to take out the pay. Anyhow - ~~ - ~ -~- about 200 sovereigns I think. You often hear them talk about it. They got the policeman up there from Esperance and oh no, he was up there, a relieving chap, there used to be two or three policemen at Esperance in those early days and they sent this chap up to relieve some bloke that was on holidays or something and I know he was the man that picked the sovereigns up. He went out to a wood campers on horseback and he went out to the woodcutters' camp and his family was at Esperance but he must have known something because they got all the records and he stopped at this bloke's camp for dinner you see, in the tent, and they had a feed and he said .....

Picked up the tin of jam, or tried to, but it was too heavy and the 21. sovereigns was in the tin and the bloke got two months.

Is that all?

That's all. Only two months. Now where was the woodcutter's camp?

Out in the bush you see. A mile up from Norseman. They were cutting for the mines you see. And about that same time a police- man arrested a drunk in Norseman and the next day the drunk said the policeman had robbed him for £30 odd pound and the magistrate whoever it was said, "You want to be very careful talking like that, are you sure?" he said. "Yes. I'm sure he did." And he described it, it was 3 £10 notes and 3 single notes. He said that's what he stole and there was a Corporal Mackie at the time and he warned the chap to be careful and then he turned round, the constable arrested him and he said, "Did you steal any money?"

He said, "No." And the prisoner said, "He did, and I'll prove it to you." And they went and searched the policeman's house and they got the exact money. They said, "How are you going to tell it's your money?" He said, "I've got the numbers at my tent." And all the money was on there, he said. "I have the numbers." And they went out to the .... he was a woodcutter too.

And there was the numbers ..

What did they do to the policeman?

Oh he got time. I can remember them talking about Corporal Mackie. He asked for a very early sentence. They were something like these policemen. ~ ~ ··· Yes. But those things went on off and on altogether. Do you know R. ~ .? Yes. He come .. ~ . h . ~~.. ~. I met him at one of the Dawe' s funerals a few years back and I asked him if he was one of the

Dawes. He said, "No." And he told me who he was and he said, and as we were going along to the funeral he said to me, "I'm the man that wrote the book, " he said, "Have you ever seen it?" I said,

"No." Well he said, "I'll send it to you." And he said," There's one people and nobody could tell me, anything about the Brooks .

Do you know anything about them?" I said, "Oh yes. I lived with them for years. I know where they were born in Ireland and on 22. the ship coming out here and where they landed and the y ear t h e y came over here," I said, "In N.S.W." I knew everything about i t .

And he was going to come and see me but he didn't. The next time

I met him was that back to Esperance, oh no, yes it was , back to

Esperance, we went down in the bus, and I met him down there , but I didn't recognize him you see in his .. ~ ~ ..... and hair flying around, and then he brought this Brooks up again and I said,

"Oh yes." "Oh, that's right." he said and he said to me, did

I read his book. I said, "No. You said you'd send one, but I said, you didn't and I was to tell you where y ou was right and where you was wrong." Well he said, "I want to know something.

Did you ever hear about any boys on an island?" Now nobody can tell me anything, whether it was right or wrong." And I thought and I thought and I said, "No." "Anyhow," he said, "You look at that book," he said, and he lives up at the hills here somewhere and "I'll send it," he said. So he did send it but I hadn't left him about half an hour and all at once it came on me about these boys. And old Miss Brooks told me about it. Their father put them there from Albany. He was a baker at Albany and these two boys were put on a little island ...... And everybody was saying how they were starving and they were religious people, she said, "I used to pray every night for these two boys," she said, "there." And their names were Andrews. And she said,

One of them they used to call him Monkey Andrews. Well they were mostly seamen. There was four brothers drowned out of seven I think and he came on the ship. There were some people going away .

In those times, anybody going away, the women and kids, they used to carry them out. ~··, •.. you know. This • . • , • • .. • and Monkey Andrews and she was telling him about how she used to pray

.•...... "Oh Pray," he said, "They ought to be singing psalms," he said, "We had the time of our life," he said, "Our

Dad put us on there for a holiday." And they were there for about three months. Yeh.

And what did they live on?

Oh they had flour and everything. There was geese and everything 23.

they wanted, you know. There was a salt works on that island

afterwards. No they had ,the greatest time of their life. So I could tell old ~ -- ~about it you see. And funny thing I met a chap, oh about eight years ago, I lived at Subi and I was near King Edward Hospital and there was an old chap go out of Esperance numberplate. the car and I said, "You come from Esperance," /He said, "No.

But my son-in-law does." and it seems that this chap in the car

there's son-in-law's wife was their daughter and she'd had a baby

the day before. And there was a little girl about three or four in the car and I got talking to this chap and he was telling me

...... his wife ...... and they'd gone in to see the

wife. We got talking about Esperance and everything and he

started asking me questions, he said, "I'm very interested," he

said, 'in different things, but," he said, "You've told me a lot."

But he said, "I've heard rumours about things, but there's one

thing nobody can tell me, who the two graves are." I said, "The

two graves out near Mt. Rugged." He said, "Yes .. " He said, "I

can not, and nobody living down there can tell me anything about

those graves, who they are or what they are or whether they were

settlers." Well I said, "I can tell you." I said, "They were

overlanders, and" I said, "One bloke died of natural causes and

the other one, I think named McLaren, there was six travelling in

the party and there was two brothers." I said, "And one had to

have some certain syrup every day and of course he ran out. Well

it was about 500 miles to where he could get that at Norseman, and

he died there." ...... You might remember about 4 or 5

years ago a chap died down there, got lost and went out and died.

Well I was all out in that country ..~ .... my horse got away, ~~ .... ~the night. I had four days tracking around ...•...... and the third night out, I left a place, about where

that chap died ...... I had to cross the lake. It was only

a pad and there was about 8 or 10 mile and I had to come across to this water. I knew there was water on the Balladonia/ . {~. ~- Road and it was dark and I was listening for the green

canaries that night for hours. Anyhow, I finally got there and 24 •

..... ~~ - ~-· ~~~ ..... Anyhow in the morning when I got up these two graves were there. I was sleeping alongside of them you see. So I asked old Miss Brooks and she told me, you see. There's no ~ --~······ chaps could tell me, could tell anybody about those two graves. Yeh. Mrs. Oldham she told me there's still, they're just railings around them, somebody seems to put something around all the time. Well I said, that's ..... but who the other one was I don't know, but I often think, my own mother used to tell me, an uncle of hers came across and named Ashton, and they never heard no more of him, what happened. ~.. ..~ .. ~whether he was the other one I don't know, of course there was a lot of people died on the way in the bush, but she named my youngest brother Ashton after him and he got killed, that's the youngest one that was born at Norseman, he got killed in 1916 in France.

When you were talking about Norseman and the woodcutting camps, were they out cutting sandalwood?

Oh no. Wood for the mines. Oh yes. No. No.

They had contracts for the mines did they?

Yes. They got so much a quarter ....•..•... and the drays would come and pick it up you see. What did they cut?

Big timber.

Big timber was it?

Yes. About six inches. So they could chop it up. Yes. It didn't matter what it was as long as it ..•...... • gum tree you see. They generally like it you know, about three inches up to six because it was easy to handle, because they put two layers, one in front about six foot long you see.

But you never worked yourself on the mines at Norseman?

No. I worked at Ravensthorpe for fiv e months.

That was before the War ...

Yes. And I worked in the Kalgoorlie mines for two years after the War. They used to call me the two-year man. I wouldn't stop anywhere more than two years. 25.

Can you tell me what you did when you came back from the War?

Yes. I went on the mine.

In Kalgoorlie?

Yes. I went to the doctor. I wanted to get a job. I wanted to have a bit of experience underground you see and I went to the doctor and he said to me, "Now have you got any war wounds?" I said, "Yes. A couple of small ones." And he said, "What about gas?" I said, "I 'm full of it." "Full of it," he said, "What do you mena?' I took my handkerchief out and spit on it, you see, and I said, "You see those black streaks?" He said, "Yes." "Well,"

I said, "That's gas." He looked at me, he said, "You've been eating licorice." I said, "I have not." "But," he said, "What about all these chaps that all come back gas ...... " I said, "No.

No." I said, "Most of them blokes come back, some come back because they wer,e no good and some were drunks. But I said, most of them, some were genuine cases, but when you heard a man talk about gas." I said, "I'll give you ... a girl from Norseman wrote back and told me so and so was home and he was gassed. So I wrote back and told her, well he must have got it out of a bottle of beer. Because he was never near enough to the line to get gassed.

But when we first went there, if you got a whiff of gas they'd put you away, send you away. But I've been ~r ...../..c.L ~ throat sore with gas. The last six months was the worst. Well this was eight months after the war had finished I showed this doctor, and he couldn't believe it you know, so he went and got a lump of gauze and he said, "Spit on that." And I spit on it and the same thing. "Well," he said, "That's lovely. Hmv am I going to let you go down the mine full of gas?" "V.Jell," I said, "It hasn't affected me." "But", he said, "It might." And so he said, "Don't stop down there more than two years." I said, "I don't stop on any job more than two years."

But didn't he take the sputum away and test it? The spit on the gauze, didn't he take it away and culture it or test it?

No. He couldn't believe it, but I showed my mother ....•....• after that and I've often showed it to people. But when you talk about 26. these people getting a whiff of gas, it's just waste of time.

They're silly to mention it.

So you stayed down on the mines two years, did you?

Then I come to Perth and I worked on the trams.

As a conductor? ~ ~ And driver. And then in 1923 I went farming again up in the nor-eastern wheat belt.

Where abouts was that?

North of Burracoppin. A place called Campian. It was all maiden bush then.

Campian?

Yes. I put in the Depression there.

And did you have your own property?

Oh yes.

Did you get it as a soldier settler?

A soldier settler, yes.

What did you have to do for that? Make an application to the

Agricultural Bank. Can you describe what you had to do?

Yes. Agricultural Bank. Of course they had no money like. Not like the R & I Bank. They used to borrow the money off the banks, then they'd pay everything, they'd pay the insurance. I think it cost me about £40 a year just for insuring the crop against hail and fire for 14 years and I never drew a penny.

How many acres did you have?

I had a thousand in the first place and then I took up another thousand.

And of that thousand, were they cleared or djdyou have to get out and clear the malley?

Virgin country.

And how did you clear it? By axe?

Yes. All axe and cross-cut saw.

Did you have somebody to help you?

Oh yes . You had contractors and I done some myself and the fencing and everything like that. All that country was done like that, you see .

How long did it take you to get enough cleared to put a crop in? 27.

Oh you'd just cut down about an acre a day and then you'd have to wait for the rains to come to get it up. Of course if you had four or five blokes working they'd do lOO or 150 acres for you .. .

And the Bank paid those contractors. Yes. And then as you cleared a certain area the banks gave you more money to seed it would they? Oh yes. And then you'd have to seed it. They supplied ~ - ~ ...... of course when your crop come they kept it. They deducted it you see.

What about implements? Who had the ploughs and horses and so forth?

Were you able to get money to provide your own?

Oh yes. If you didn't have money of your own, you see. I had a few pounds and it saved me a lot of interest. But that's the way it was. Of course when you got on your feet a bit and you wanted an instrument and you wanted to pay for it, well you paid for it you see. And that's the way it went.

And what were the Depression years like? On the farm, can you describe a bit about that? Yes. I got sheep in ..... having experience with sheep, I wanted to get sheep at the end of 27, I'd been there about five years.

And I had the Kalgoorlie water scheme on and I had a metal fence around and having a bit of experience with the sheep I went to a couple of big firms and ~~ -~ :tP~~ down and they laughed at me, and they told me sheep wouldn't live out there and

I said, "Oh Strike me dead. I've been I said, where it's only half that rainfall." And I was asked a lot of questions by one firm about my fencing and I said, "I've got a rabbit-proff fence."

And he said, "What about water?" And I said, "I've got the

Kalgoorlie water scheme on." And he said, "What about dogs1" And I said, "Well I'm experienced in catching dogs and d~." I said, "They won't worry me long." And he said, "Where's your nearest shearers?" I said, "Kellerberrin." "Well," he said,

"You don't expect anybody to go up there seventy miles to shear a couple of hundred sheep." I said, "Oh that won't worry me. I am a. shearer." So he said, "You don't mean to tell me you're 28.

going to buy a shearing plant," he said, ''to shear a couple of

hundred." "No. I'm a blade shearer," I said." It's going to

cost me 6/6 for a blade." And he turned me down flat and finally

I got it from Wesfarmers, they ...... and I never looked back and

I used to kill six or eight sheep every week, some breeding myself

and buying them you see. And I was one of the few that paid their way right through the Depression.

So you had wheat as well, did you?

Oh yes. Yes. But you couldn't get much for wheat. No.

Do you remember the price of wheat? When you were . ...

It was about 5/- a bushell and then it dropped down to about 5/-

a bag for a few years and it gradually went up, a little bit . I

think it was only about 8 or 9 bob. But most people got a few

pigs. But then the wool went up and my cheque would go to the

Agricultural Bank and when it got up to a few hundred pounds they

began to wake up and there was something in sheep and when I left there in 1940, yes 1941, they - ~~ ...... ~everybody get sheep and that's right out through the - ~·· out there. Now they stocked up on millions of sheep I think, right through, yeh.

Well in the Depression years, were your sheep paying then? The

wool was pretty low then.

Yes. Yes.

But you were managing.

I used to do the butchering. Sell by the quarter you know or

half, and I learnt to skin ......

You'd butcher for the local town, would you?

No town. They used to come and get it from the farm. Yes. You

see, and there was generally about twelve months credit and I

reckon I got six pound a week out of it, cheaper, with a bit of

wool and the skins and the meat you see ......

And did they ever, the ones you gave credit to for twelve months,

you got it eventually, but did others just want to give goods in

exchange?

No. No.

You always got money eventually did you? 29.

Yes. Oh yes. I wasn't short and a lot of them were you see. No.

Of course some used to pay you off and on, you see, but if anybody wanted it I but that's what pulled me

through you see.

Did many walk off their farms in your area?

Oh yes. A lot. Well they had to, you see. They never really got

going properly and that was the trouble. The first two or three

years I was there and got crops in, I was only talking to a chap

the other day who ~~- ~ ······with me. We were right, you see. Well then the Depression hit, you see, as I say, wheat

dropped from 5 bob a bushell down to five bob a bag. And there

you are. That's the way it was And oats you couldn't sell, barley you couldn't sell . If you grew them, they ~ . (~~ .. . ~ - ~ in those days. But now it's all barley and wheat .... and oats.

Well you were on that property until 1940

41, I think I left, at the end of 41, yes.

And what did you take up then? Well that was longer than two

years of course.

No. 23 to 4l.

Yes. But you were saying you were a two-year man, but this time

you were an 18 year man.

Well I went down and worked in the wool stores and I worked on the

wharf for a while, to kill a bit of time. The money was good. In

fact no matter where I worked I always made good money.

That was a contrast to having your own farm and being independant

to go and work in wool stores though.

Yes. Well I left the farm you see. I sold everything up and left

it. And I wanted the kids to get a bit of education. I had no ..

...... and in 46 again I went back farming for the boys and when

I left the farm in about 56 I went back down and I used to do a

bit of casual work down in on the wool stores~~, round there .

And I go up to the farm now and do a bit of work.

And where's the farm now?

One's at Quindanning and the other one's at Cuballing down the 30.

Great Southern ... I done a lot of work with a surveyor. What year was that? About 1910 on the beginning of 1912 off and on and he was a contract surveyor. He wouldn't employ a man. You had to be from

15 to about 17 and no more than 18.

What was his name? Watkins. He was a proper slave driver. In the summertime he'd have us out on the line at six in the morning and you wouldn't get back till seven at night.

Where were you at this stage?

Between Esperance and the Grass Patch, all through there and Scadden.

And what were you surveying? Land~ ~~ Land. Farms, miles out. And he had no cook. You shifted camp on Sunday and all you had was bread or damper and tinned jam and tinned dog we used to call it to eat. And black tea.

Bully beef.

Yes. And we had a bit of a talk one day and I was the oldest, the chainman and one day about a mile from the camp and I started to wind the chain up and he said, "What are you doing?" I said,

"I'm winding the chain up." He said, "It's only six o'clock."

I said, "I know it's only six o'clock but I said we're not going to work after six." "Oh," he said, "t.Ve' re working towards the camp." And I said, "Never mind," I said, "We're not going to work after six." He said," Well we don't want an argument." I said,

"No. But I'm not coming out next week." "Righto." he said. So

I left. And that's when I went down to Ravensthorpe.

Well what hours did you work? When you were working for him when did you get up in the morning?

Oh at the crack of day.

And you worked through till dark.

Yes. And you got one hour for dinner

And what did you get for that? What money did you get?

From 15 to about 30 bob a week. And your keep? Yes. For what it was. 31.

And you worked six dqys q week?

Seven. And we shifted camp on Sundqy . He'd mqke you work seven if he could but he never really put us on the line and that's the way it was, you see.

So how long did you work for him?

Oh I must have worked twelve months off and on at different times - le~ you see. Of course ~· kept you in your place .t--Y~ •• ~ ... !!..- I went down to Ravensthorpe and I got a job on the concentrators works.

What was that?

That's where they crush all the copper ore up, you see, before it goes into the smelting part.

And what was your job on that?

Filling trucks and shovelling it and tipping it. And before I started to work, I had another Esperance chap that had been down there working before. He was there in fact and he said to me,

"You've got a job." I said, "Yes. I've got to start at four this afternoon." So he said, "Now, I'll tell you something." He said, there was no union in the ...... •. company. Nobody to protect you and they were just starting there and he said, "You won't be working there ten minutes and a big fella will come around. He's the boss there. And he'll say to you,"Are you in the union?" And you say, "Yes. Yes. Oh yes." And if you say no you only get 10/- a day, you see, not 11." I said, "Oh yes, I'm in the union." He said, "Have you got your ticket with you?" I said,

"No. I haven't got it with me." But he said, "Get it," he said, r "because you only get ten bob a day if you /-.~ You see that's the way it was then. The chap was like honorary secretary. He was out at the ~~ine about four mile out and he was working night shift and I didn't get it but I worked eight days and there

WqS another chap with me, in the same pot, but we'd only get out pay, six day's pay and three pound and we asked the bloke for the other six bob you see, because they keep a couple of days pay, and he said, "Oh, you're not in the union." You see. "Well," we said, 32.

"Give us the other pound." And we both got our four pound and we

started up to the town and we met a chap coming down, a bloke named Shepherd. He was always looking for men because they were

always short in those parts. And he said, "Where are you two

blokes going?" We said, "We're going up the town." And he said,

"Do you want a job?" And we said, "We just left one." And he

said, "What did you leave for?" And we said, "Well they only

paid us ten bob before we get in the union and then we get 11."

And he said, "You'd better come back." "No," we said, "If you can

give us that eight bob we're entitled to we'll come back." But

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • we didn't go back. So I went out 1/d~ to the ~ton m1ne and I worked there on the surface and under-

ground ...... when they were short.

What did you do on the surface?

I was ore picking and doing trucking away from sorneof the shoots

you see. I was the biggest there and they used to get me on that

job and then when they were short, they were short underground,

they used to send me underground you see and that's where I got

my first experience in the copper mines, down there. So I was

there five months. Then I went back to work on the salt lake at

Esperance and then that rained and that stopped that and then I

went back with the surveyor again.

The salt lake job was a bit messy wasn't it? Because you were

shoveling salt all the time and .....

Yes. Well you know that pink lake if there was no wind, if the

water be back you'd be working dry all day, but from about 4

o'clock on the sea breeze would get up and it'd bring that water

in and you'd be nearly knee deep by the time you knocked off.

Did you have special boots and special gloves?

No. No. And if you knocked a bit of skin off it would eat a hole in your · ~ ...... because it was 98% pure salt, you see. Did you come out of that a bit of a mess?

No. Not too bad. No. No. Your hands was pretty right because

it was easy washed off you see, but if you broke a bit of skin

that was when you.~. I can always remember taking "-.','~4 33. off, you know, dried, and my fingernail ~~~bit of s kin there ...... and I had a hole right here. Right in with the salt ...... And were you working eight hours a day on that?

Eight hours. Yes. Eight till 12 and 1 till 5. And that was shipped out, that salt, was it? On the steamer?

Yes. Yes. It was carted into the big shed and it was dumped on the shore and then carted into a big shed and they used to crush it afterwards, and then it would go ~ . Bag it. And send it out, yes .

Yes...... you bag it in the and the ship used to come from the Eastern States and take it, 2 or 3 tons,

2000 or 3000 tons a time.

And how much did you get while you were working on that job?

Well we were getting 10 bob for a start and then we got 11/6 I think it was, or 11/8.

And your keep?

Oh no. No.

So did you live at home?

Well we used to camp out there. But my Mum was there at the time and when I got a bike I used to ride in, otherwise you had to camp out you see, it was three mile out and it was a long way in those times. Yeh, about three and a half mile from where I was working . Oh no. It was a job and that's all you could say ..•... you was hundreds of miles from anywhere else and if you wanted to go well it .. . .•.... we had a chap living alongside Archie's, he was working at Ravensthorpe and his wife and kiddies was living alongside us and he got a week off. Well it would take him a week to get down, so he had to stop where he was, and his family went up to Ravensthorpe. That's the way it was in those days. Just send money up to them, every so often . Oh yes. Yes .. But when I went down to ....• I took the wife and the daughter and her husband down in 56 to Esperance, I hadn't been back since 1919 and when we was going over where I drove the stock in the early days, I said to them, "Now, when you got up in the 34. morning and as far as you could see, you say I'll be there tonight. But now," I said, "You're there in about 10 minutes."

That's right.

Yeh.

Yes. You must have seen big changes in that time, from 1900 to

1956.

Oh yes. I know we left Esperance when we were coming back and we stopped at Ravensthorpe the first night and had a look around and when I told the woman I was there in 1909 first and then 1911,

oh she wanted me to talk all night and then . ~ ...... a family of Gibsons .. Next morning whe wanted me to go and see them. Well I said, "I can't go and see them but I'll call in on the way back." But I didn't, I didn't stop. I said I know the family. I know the old people, but we stopped at Ravensthorpe going down there and next day, oh when we come back. We left

Esperance in the morning, early and boiled the billy about 50 mile out. Well that was a two day's trip, you see. Yeh, in those times. It took us three weeks from the Dalyup River, that's 20 miles out of Esperance to get to Katanning with the horses.

Yes. It's very slow travel of course. What about some of the old landmarks in Esperance. You've got a story to tell about

Jimmy Windisch's grave haven't you?

Oh yes.

Can you tell me that?

Yes. They've shifted the grave but they haven't shifted the carcass you see. It's only the top 9 . C~ . They put a road along there.

But there was some discussion about some chap you met who insisted they'd moved it three times, but you don't feel that they've done this.

Oh he's only a liar. But Norma Shepherd, she used to be Norma

Moore, she told me they'd shifted it twice and I said, "No. No.

No. No." I said, "They never shifted it." Of course she argued the point at me, it was, I said, "No. Definitely no." I said,

"I've played on that grave," "I've set rabbit traps on it and I 35. said, Now, I said, the water comes right up , but I said,it had two chain of sand banks and then 3 chain out to this ...... and then another two or three chain out the water. Then the water shot away, I said, and it was ten chain, but we used to have all our sportsway up there I said, and she still argued with me and

I.. ~ . ·~ - ~••• as much as to say , Well, she'll argue but you've got her beat. But I met a Councillor from

Esperance. He lived about this side of Lak e Warden, I forget his name now, he had a horse running up here by the name of Cater .

Well Cater Swamp is about eight mile out you see. And I was telling him. I said, "They were trying to tell me that old Tornrny

Windie's grave and" "No." he said, "It's never been shifted."

"No." I said, "I checked that with ...... but there was nothing and I said, "A chap tried to tell me he picked the bones up and carted them ... " And I told him he was a liar."

I said, "You're not allowed to shift a man's grave, whatever's happened." I said. "No." he said, "It's never never been shifted."

This is one of the old yarner's stories that go around. This happens ......

Well you see very few people know that there was two pubs at

Esperance you see and they still tell you that this railway line went out and they used to go out there to dances at night. And I said to one bloke, "No." I said, "You're trying to tell me that they used to go out from this town hall, or from this town out to the new town. Well there was a big hall there," I said, " On this truck. Now," I said, "It was a railway truck," I said," and a horse would have to pull it," I said," It didn't come into down," I said, "It was a mile and a quarter up," I said, " ......

I said, " And while that horse was pulling," I said, "Somebody has got to walk alongside, somebody's got to walk with the brake.

So," I said, "You think that really happened." "Oh" he said, "It happened .. ~ . ~. ~- .... " I said , "It never came past Burn Phillips ·· ~~ ······· because there was no line between there and the main jetty. That's all ...... and" I said, "It never linked up by 40 to 50 chain," I said, "I drove horses over it. I've ~ . carts over it." I said, "The two trucks were 36. there, .... W...... the shed. They built over it," I said," and they rusted there, and" I said, " I've often got ln there out of the rain." I said, "I know exactly what happened." What was it used for? What was the little line used for? Oh they had their · ~ - ~ ..~ here they had their own ship you see, own jetty and the car ...... down on the main town you see. I don't suppose it cost anything for wharfage if they had their own. See the other was a Government and everything you bought off there you had to pay wharfage. I remember old Fred

Douglas, he had the old Grace Darling. Instead of paying wharfage he used to unload the stuff into his own boats and cart it away down around and unload it round there, for his own place ...... you see.

What about the story about the steer and the shark?

Yeh.

Can you tell me about that?

Well I often remember them talking about it and I can remember the steer. We used to pull its tail, you see. I generally be the last you see. This is about when? 1898?

Somewhere about that. I know I was talking to a chap. He was the head of the wireless station. I don't know ...... they built that station in 1913 down there after they'd built the one at

Applecross, and I knew his wife very well, she was an Esperance girl and I went to see him in the 50 1 s and we were talking and we were talking about this steer ...... I could remember that.

And he said, "It's a funny thing,'' he said, "Somebody wrote ~o me from Sydney~" he said, "about that. It's in the histor'~· ·· oh I can't get it.

The historical library

Yes. "In the history," he said, "And they read it and they wrote over to ask me, and," he said, "I've never met anybody that has actually seen it." "Well," I said, "I didn't see it. ~ .. but I heard enough. But I can remember this half a steer on the beach." Yes. 37.

And what happened? He just ...... They used to swim and ...... everything ashore,

round the rocks, you know. There was no jetty there and I said,

and this half a steer was there and they reckon that was the

half a steer that the shark left. It's two hind legs and the tail. It was black. I can remember those as ~ M-4( as I 'm talking to you. Yeh. But of course theold stingrays they used

to come in close to the shore and we used to spear them for the

fun of it and drag them ashore. They'd never eat them in those

days. The same with ...... the old fisherman used to come, he

used to put his nets out at that point and us kids we lived down

near that. We used to go down.

Which point was this?

Dempster's Point. Well I see a lot of people get washed off

there. I think there's eleven or twelve in the last few years .

) Well it's very slippery black stuff you know and if you go too

close, you'll slip and that's the end of you. And I see ~ . . •. . . ~~···washed off there not long back. And yet they used to bring all the produce and goods in from there,

on the ships.

No.

A little bit further down. w~ Nearer the town you see. Right under where Tornrny w±nchle's at,

there's all sandy beach but way around that Point they go walking

around there and it's very slippery you know where the water comes

up. We knew it but I see where a young Englishman got washed off • and they never found him ......

And you used to net fish in that area did you?

No. Just where the sand went on the rocks. The old fisherman,

the old Greek fisherman used to come down and we used to be there and he'd throw . - ~ .~. . . . . • . . . two Jones boys, they'd throw the right onto the rocks, that rock where we were standing and

we'd stop there and then they'd go right around, you see and come

in right in front of Tornrny Windich's grave out from that and you

pull the big line in there, right along the beach and you'd often 38.

get a shark and he'd get the old harpoon out and deal with it and

pull it up on the beach, but you could always tell when a shark

was in the net, you could feel the jerk you know. But I knew

that beach exceptionally well.

What sort of fish did they catch there?

Mostly herring. Yes. In the nets. And sloop, or pike as they

call them on the line. Course there was all sorts of fish,

herring and skipjack, mostly around the rocks and off the jetties.

And did you just take them home to eat or sell them?

Oh he used to sell them. We used to catch a lot of fish ourselves.

Course we generally got a dozen herring, pull it out and pull in.

Sometimes you'd get eight or ten baskets and other times you'd get

nothing but he used to send fish on the coast to Norseman ......

...... Tuesday morning, well he'd generally try to get

them Monday night. Him and these two Jones boys that he was

keeping and they used to have to do all those fish up, clean

them and pack them and put them on the horse coach the next

• morning, you see, at six o'clock they'd leave .

When would that get to Norseman?

Eight o'clock the following night, or six o'clock the following

night.

And would the fish be quite all right?

Oh in that weather, in the cold, but not in the summer.

What did they pack them in? Just in damp rags?

Well they used to have some ice thing they called it. It was a

• sort of a .. ~~ but whether it was any good or not I don't 9~ know. In a wet bag. As ~ar as > .~~···· I brought fish up in

the fifties down there and I got, one of these Jones boys, he's

an old man now, and he packed about half a dozen of these snoop

for me in a wet rag and I picked them up before we left in the

morning and they were just as cold when we got onto Narrogin .....

Of course there was no refrigeration. They used the old Cool-

gardie safes, wrapped in bags ...... it was the same principle

wasn't it?

I don't ever remember the Coolgardie safes. They never brought them till after that·· ~··· started. Into the cooler. They 39.

were very handy too when they did come in.

Yes. What did you use before the Coolgardie safes?

Well, we used to have a wet rag or if you had a well at Esperance

they used to let the butter down. I can always remember that.

In the bucket?

• Yes. And in the pubs they used to have a wet bag over the barrels. And if you didn't get a cold drink you got a warm one.

And the meat you just hung up with a cloth around them, a cloth

bag around them.

Yeh, a wet bag, yes. It was a wet bag hanging over a p ......

one, it keeps cool. It's marvellous how a chaff bag on the

stations, we'd kill, we could hang the meat up all day or all

night in a chaff bag. It was cool, you know the breeze goes

through that and it's marvellous how long it would keep, but you'd

have to bring it out of the sun in the day time, you see and hang ' it up in the night time and get this breeze through it and that's

1 the way, and it was cool, other way . ~ ~ . ~ ... chaff bag • - .aw · 1r /. · · t~~ - ..... ~-~'"' and that would keep the wet quite good, but if you didn't do that, well you'd lose it ......

And you always had to salt some anyway didn't you?

Oh we generally had- ~~ - pickled, yes. But you had all sorts

of ways of keeping it. Yes, it was hard those times, you know

when you come to think of it.

Do you remember any of the old medecinal cures? If you were sick

or had sores do you remember any of the cures?

Oh yes. The bluebottle and pain killer.

Yes. What did you use? .. That was castor oil . The bluebottle was castor oil.

Yeh, the bluebottle. Well they greased the wagon with it and

... ~ . vi-.--. . . as a medecine. But old painkillers mostly .

...... You was that far away there was no doctor.

What was the painkiller? What was it made of?

I don ' t know ....

It was called painkiller was it? 40.

Oh yes. They used to get it ....

Was it belladonna or something like that?

A shilling a bottle I think. We used to get a dozen bottles, and

it was very hot stuff, you had to break it down. You had a sore

throat and you took it, oh it was good stuff.

What was the basis of it? Quinine or belladonna or ...... • There was some drug in it. I seen they were talking a while back

about them stopping this, selling this painkiller. The drug

blokes are getting it you see. But if you had a splinter or

anything like that, or an itch, you'd put it on. It'd burn but

by Gee it'd stop the soreness. No, it was good stuff. And if

you gargled your throat and broke it down and drank a little bit, . RI M~ 1t was marvellous stuff. U~ .. I'll always remember that.

And what if you had a bad tooth? What was the precedure if you

had a sore tooth? • Well, it had to ache. That's about all you could do with it . • Did you ever put iodine on a matchstick?

• Yes. That wasn't much, not much good. I put spirits of salts on

a tooth and that wouldn't stop it. But I can remember when I was

at Ravensthorpe I chewed a nut and it went in a big hollow tooth.

Oh dear, dear. For two days and two nights they ..... and there

was no doctor there you know. No doctor, no permanent doctor.

There was no doctor while I was there. Well that ached and ached

and ached and you just had to suffer it out and that's the way it

was.

What did you do in the end?

Well it stopped, but about eighteen months after that or twelve

months afterwards I was working at Shepherd's farm near the Grass

Patch and it was a big hollow tooth, and I'll never forget the

pain I went through with that and another one came up under it

and pushed it out and the big fellow broke on top, and that was

me tooth that ached for two days and two nights ......

and you had to be very careful you didn't get something into it

and start it off again. As I say, there was no dentist, no doctor,

nothing.

And were any times that you had any bad illness? Or any broken 41.

• limbs that you ......

No. I've been lucky ...... Oh I had a broken nose.

But in those early days you had no accidents that you needed a

doctor for.

No. Only put me up for a few days. No. You were that far away

...... I had this arm seize up about 20 years ago and I went to • the doctor at Narrogin and he said, "You've let that go a long

time." And I said, "Yes." He said, "What did you do that for?"

And I said, "Well I'm an old bushman and I reckon it will cure

itself." And it seized up in the shoulder and if

.... and I went like that ...... oh dear. And I couldn't do

tha-t. ~J~ · .~ <"" - •••• And he said to me, "Well away you go up to the hospital and get the x-rays." And I got the x-rays and he

said to me, "You be in here Tuesday morning and that's operation morning." There was three lots of doctors and two . !. .~ . ~ . ~ . [~ .~ .. and they put me to sleep and they broke that. It had seized up, he told me, after I'd seized up on that shoulder, he I . said, "Have you ever been, fell off a horse or thrown off a horse,

or kicked?" I said, "I've got all those things, plenty of times."

Well he said, "That shoulder has seized up," he said, "and it

will get worse and worse and it'll pull your arm right up. So

they broke it. Put me to sleep and they broke it and when I come

to sleep, come to ...... I was on an old bench outside the

hospital. They used to chuck them out . · ~ · ~ And then that night there was a big fire out • . ~ .. ~ . ~- ~ ~ v4~fL~"'~~ ~ I had to stop out like that for a couple of days and then I had

to work my arm all the time and in the end I never felt that, from

that day to this ......

When you were coming over from South Australia you came on the Rob Roy.

The Rob Roy, yes. The Rob Roy steamer was one , would be the one

I think because that's the most you hear them talk about and I

can remember my Mum talking about Dad coming from Norseman to

meet us in the old buggy and the one horse and she had some

chooks and it must have been somewhere about what they call 42.

Gilmore now, it was ...... the rooster got out and they couldn't

catch him, so they had to leave him and a few months afterwards

' the chap with the baker's cart got talking ...... come across

from South Australia. That must have been the next trip or about

that time because he said to my mother, "Oh," he said, "We had

a good Christmas," he said, "You know we were camped," he said,

"and a rooster came out of the bush," he said, "And we ate him

for Christmas dinner." So I guess that was my Mum's rooster, so

it must have been about December in 96 when we came over. Yes.

Did she only have the one rooster?

One rooster and several hens you see.

' . • I

•