Jaswant Singh is already present in the House; he will [Translation] speak. (Interruptions) SHRI RAJENDRA AGNIHOTRI : It has happened SHRI RAJENDRA AGNIHOTRI : It is a question of many times that the discussion has been held for more 15 crore people of Uttar Pradesh. It will not be tackled time than allotted... (Interruptions) m this way. I must speak... (Interruptions) [English] SHRI RAM KIRPAL YADAV : Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, we have to go, therefore please take any decision. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please sit down

SHRI SYED MASUDAL HOSSAIN : Mr. Deputy [Translation] Speaker. Sir, they are shouting without any reason. Jaswantji, do you want to say Please call their leaders and talk to them. something?.. .(Interruptions) PROF. RASA SINGH RAW AT (Ajmer) ; Mr. Deputy [Englishj Speaker, Sir, keeping in view the feelings of the hon. Members of Uttar Pradesh and the people of Uttar MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please allow him to Pradesh, please allow him to speak ...(Interruptions) speak.. .(Interruptions) dictatorship cannot prevail here. [Translation] SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR RAWAT (Agra) : Mr. SHRI JAGATVIR SINGH DRONA (Kanpur) : It is on Deputy Speaker, Sir, they are not allowing us to speak. record that you have discussed the issued for six hour This kind of discrimination will not ...(Interruptions). 60 for which only two hours were allotted... (Interruptions) The people of Uttar Pradesh are being exploited... (Interruptions). The people of the State are [English] being supperessed. Had it happened in any other MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House stands State, violent incidents could have taken place adjourned for fifteen minutes. there...(Interruptions) The democracy as well as the people of the largest State of India are being 15.17 hrs. mocked... (Interruptions) The Lok sabha then adjourned till thiry-two minutes MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have a suggestion to past fifteen of the clock. give. I shall invite hon. George Fernandes to speak. Other party leaders may decide as to how much time they would take. If it is possible, please do it ...(Interruptions) 15.32 hrs.

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : Sir, what is The Lok Sabha re-assembled at Thirty Two Minutes happening here... (Interruptions) Had the chance been past Fifteen of the Clock. given to Hon. MLAs of Uttar Pradesh the situation of (Shri Chitta Basu in the Chair) President Rule would not have come. Due to their excess, the elected MLAs of Uttar Pradesh have not been able to attend the Assembly, so far. Atleast give STATUTORY RESOLUTION RE: APPROVAL OF us opportunity to speak today, so that we can express PROCLAMATION BY PRESIDENT IN RELATION our views about the sorrows and sufferings of the TO THE STATE OF UTTAR PRADESH - CONTD. people and newly elected MLAs of Uttar Pradesh and injustice done to our party there.. .(Interruptions) [English] MR. CHAIRMAN : Hon. Members, to begin with, I PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT : Mr. Deputy Speaker, want to make an earnest appeal to you all. Without Sir, on the one hand, the hon. MLAs of Uttar Pradesh your cooperation, the House cannot be conducted were not given opportunity to form the Government and properly. Every hon. Member has got a right to speak, on the other hand due to dicratorial attitude, we are not being allowed to speak ...(Interruptions) subject to certain limits. Now, it has been decided that the hon. Home [English] Minister will reply to this debate at 4.30 p.m. Some hon. SHRI SRIKANTA JENA : Sir, I just wjmt to repond Members, particularly those belonging to certain parties to one point of the BJP’s allegation. In the BAC, the who have not yet spoken, would be allowed to speak leader of the BJP was present, when the time for this I again request you to kindly extend your cooperation. discussion was decided as four hours... (Interruptions) there is a limit to everything... (Interruptions) This is not Now, Shri George Ferandes. Kindly remember the the way ...(Interruptions) time limit. [Translation] reasons. Article 356 had been used for SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (Nalanda) : Mr political reasons and not for any Chairman, Sir, I am on my legs to oppose the resolution administrative reasons. This is an experience moved by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and the of the application of Article 356. It has been discussion on which has been going on for the last used indiscriminately against political three days. The first thing is that, in my opinion, the oppcnents in West Bengal. We have been decision taken by the hon. Governor and the Union victm ,s in Kerala; we have been victims in Government is unconstitutional and in contradiction to Orissr.. Then people have been victims in Article 356 of the Constitution. 1 know that it has been UP, Haryana and what not...” discussed here to some extent but I felt unhappiness [Translation] when our respected colleague, Shri Somnath ji stood to support this resolution. When emergency was imposed He further says. under Article 356, Shri Somnath Chatterjee had [ E nglish / launched an extraordinary movement, so that the situation leading to Emergency could not be created “Article 356 is very antithesis of a federal structure of Government in this country. They again and under the same movement when a cannot really go together." Constitution Amendment Bill was introduced in the House in 1978, he delievered a well worded speech Either they cannot or Somnathbabu, sometimes and presented the best arguments for removal of Article they can. 356.Today, I am saying it with a heavy heart because [Translationj when a person like him, steps back, due to some I have gone through your full speech and I shall reasons, from such a role he had selected for himself comment on it in the end of my speech but we had not by delivering a nice speech with best arguments, then expected this of him because today it is not the question our faith in many things is lost and we become puzzled as to who will form the Government in Uttar Pradesh as to how we would be able to maintain the Democracy and who will not or who is in power in West Bengal and for which he had given thrust in his speech. who is not. This case will always be considered as a standard because the Government changes after some Perhaps Somnathji might be remembering that time and once this tradition is established in the House, when a resolution regarding not using Article 356 for it seems very difficult to think today as to what more than 6 months period and after that for a further repercussion will it cast on them tomorrow. He further period of 6 months period and under no circumstance says. it would be used after a period of one year, was brought, then he had, through an amendment, sought to reduce [English] 6 month’s period to 3 months and further 6 month's ‘If a political party in power loses its majority period to 3 months and in no case Article 356 should or if there is uncertainty in the Government be used for more than a total period of 6 months. It is at the Centre, thee is no provision for necessary today to remember those arguments which President’s rule. Then, why should you take he uttered in favour of his Amendment. I am not saying States of second class political entity? Now, so to remind him but it is necessary to remind the in the present context, we have seen different House of those arguements because these things are political parties ruling different States in the worth remembering. country. There is no protection whatsoever Somnath Babu put his Amendment and the next against political misapplication of Article 356 day discussion was held on the Bill in the House. It is so far as a particular State is concerned. not needed that the House should be reminded of his Therefore, we have suggested that in cases entire speech but since most of the Members of the where only elections cannot be held, then, time of 1978, are not the Members at present and new for three months, there can be a sort of Members have taken their place, they should know as interregnum only to allow the elections to be to what for they are required to vote. The hon. Members held” . of this House should know as to on which resolution our oldest and the most revered hon Minister of Home [Translation] Affairs is asking for vote. Somnath Babu gives the The day before yesterday, he opposed all these reason of this opposition and he says. points on the basis of Sarkaria Commission. Mr. Chairman Sir, they have tried to find out new “The position is that starting from 1959 and interpretation of Article 356. Further he says: during the great leadership of Congress, of Shrimati Indira Gandhi, by machinations of “We can allow to that extent but we would be the Centre and not because of any bonafide happy if article 356 altogether goes. Due to the overbearing attitude of the Centre, they seems that his whole argument is a personal can stifle State Governments in a different attack ..(Interruptions) manner not only in respect of political and MR. CHAIRMAN . Kindly sit down, Constitutional power but there is also economic strangulation of different State [Translationj Governments in this country. SHRI J AI PRAKASH (HISSAR) : Somnath ji, you Article 356 cannot go side by side with the federal were also the Member of that Government. structure ot our country. We are clear about this. The people of this country are convinved about this. Article SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Mr. Chairman. Sir, I 356 is a method of crushing political opposition in this did not want to hurt his feelings. I was just talking about country as also the dissidence in the ruling party." my agony I did not think that my statement would hurt his feelings. I extremely regret tor that. Therefore, Shri Somnath Chatterjee, we are objecting to it ‘on principle’. Mr. Chairman, Sir. I would also like to speak on the Article 356. Several comments have been made about SHRI PC. CHACKO(Mukundapuram): It is politics it and they have tried to interpret it in a peculiar manner convenience, Whether they would give the same logic in a court Qf SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Have you heard it? law if need arises? I would like to read out the He says: Now, it is politics of convenience. amendment which was made to Article 356 in the year 1978 as things depend upon it [Translation] Mr. Chairman , Sir, I have reminded it here because [English] a division has to be held on it and I would like the “Notwithstanding anything contained in hon’ble Members to vote on it after considering all clause 4, a resolution with respect to any aspects. They should not forget their past and their continuance in force of proclamation principles and convictions. There is a peculiar situation approved under clause 3 for any period in one State only. beyond the expiration of one year from the date of issue of such proclamation shall not [ English] be passed by either House ot Parliament... SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (Bolpur) : Your support to the BJP is also a matter of convenience for I repeat: you ...(Interruptions) “shall not be passed by either House of Parliament unless: [Translation] SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : I am talking about (a) a proclamation of emergency is in principle. operation in the whole of India or . as the case may be. in the shole or any part of SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Shri Chacko has the State at the time of passing such a made a comment to which you have referred. I have resolution, said that we have to save the country I said it with the greatest unhappiness. I am hearing you today speaking (b) The Election Commission certifies that the on this motion. I have said that it is fractured polity. continuation in force of such proclamation Today, there has to be some administration. You and approved under clause 3 during the your friends - your being brother - cannot do it What period specified in such a Resolution is can be done in this country? I asked Shri necessary on account of difficulties in Joshi ...(Interruptions) you cannot take the country for a holding general elections to the ride just to suit you. .(Interruptions) you cannot do Legislative Assembly of the State it... (Interruptions)- concerned".

Shri Fernandes, I hope you will be able to give the [Translation] list of Members of the U.P. Assembly who can form the I have given some examples of the discussion held Government today. Give that list, please. .(Interruptions) in 1978 by Shri Somnathji. If this House, which had You were a Member of the Government which made amendment in the Constitution, had thought about dismissed nine provincial Governments. Do not bring the possibility that after election, such a situation can those things.. (Interruptions) emerge that no party has secured, majority, a clause would have certainly been added to it. As per the MR. CHAIRMAN : Shri Fernandes, please continue. provisions ot the Constitution, Election Commission (Interruptions) should certify that due to particular reasons it is not SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : I was listening to possible to hold elections. Therefore, the condition of tiim with all attention. He deserves all attention. But it one year may be dropped and if emergency has been imposed in any part of the country due to terrorism, this joined politics and he is not aware of the appreciation period can be extended. While making amendment in of the Sarkaria Commission highlighted in the election the Constitution, neither Shri Somnathji nor anyone else manifesto of his party. The Janata Dal has, not only in who had pondered over it, had taken any decision its election manifesto but also in other papers stated o about such a situation. But when Shri Murli Manohar implement its decisions but yesterday they rejected it Joshi gave an example about Sarkaria Commission, saying that they have no restriction on Sarkaria Shri Somnathji had rejected that argument saying that C om m ission... (Interruptions) he had quoted paragraph 4.11.03 ot it but I am quoting THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI MULAYAM paragraph 6.4.01. I would like to read it out because SINGH YADAV) : You are a great leader but he is a new when Shri Somnath ji told about it he put more stress Member, then why are you criticising him9 on its initial portion. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : That is why I have / English] defended him by saying that he is a new Member and “The failure of constitutional machinery may he is not aware of these things. He is a well educated occur in a number of ways Factors person. Therefore, had he gone through the election contributing to such a situation are diverse manifesto of his party he would not have used such and imponderable. It is therefore difficult to language yesterday. give an exhaustive catalogue of all such situations which would fall within the sweep When you have trust on Sarkaria Commission and of that phrase, Government of the State say that he hacJ not said so that there should be a floor cannot be carried on in accordance with the test, then we should discuss on paragraph four of it provisions of this Constitution'. Even so, some some extract of which was quoted by Shri Joshi ji day instances of what does and what does not before yesterday. I will not read it out but I would like constitute a constitutional failure within the to read out that portion which has been given under contempolation of this article may be dropped para 4.11.04 that if there is no. and discussed under the following heads: / English] [Translation] ‘Single Party having an absolute majority in the Political crisis. There is no need forgetting extra A ssem bly’ time for it but today, the issue of political crisis which was raised by Shri Somnathji day before yesterday. [Translation] The recommendations of Sarkaria Commmisston [English] are: “Constitutional break-down may be the outcome of a crisis or a deadlock. This may [English] occur where after a general election no Party If there is no such Party, the Governor should select or coalition of Parties or groups is able to a Chief Minister from among the following Parties or secure an absolute majority in the Legislative group of Parties by sounding them in turn in order of Assembly and despite exploration of all preference indicated below: possible alternatives by the Governor." 1. An alliance of Parties that was formed prior to the election. [ Translation] Here Somnathji has spoken a very interesting thing. [Translation] He used 4-5 words. He does not talk of a floor test. He It is not here. does not talk of a floor test for the sake of a floor test. [English] He has said so. 2. The single largest Party staking claim to form [English] the Government with the support of others, A situation emerges where there is a complete including Independents. demonstrated inability to form a Government [Translation] commanding confidence of the Legislative Assembly.” And I shall not read it fully because it will take too much time ...(Interruptions) [Translation] SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV : Sir, you must not Shri Somnath ji has shown his trust on this report. feel hurt, just remember for how many years we have An hon’ble Member of Janata Dal has dismissed the chanted your slogans and now you want that they should Sarkaria Commission. He is a new Member who has praise you? Please tell me. State of Uttar Pradesh

SHRI SHIVRAJ SINGH(Vidisha) : Have you only in the Assembly within 30 days of take over This is the thir argument? report of Sarkaria Commission as presented by me word to word in the House. [English] MR. CHAIRMAN ; You may continue but please I English] remember the time constraint. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE Shri Fernandes is reading extracts from the Sarkaria Commission Report. SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Sir, I have hardly I am not going into my Party’s stand on it. It was in spoken for seven or eight minutes. I won’t take much general and not on Article 356 alone He made a time. I am aware of the time constraint. distinction between the position obtaining after a general [Translation] election and the question of ascertainment of loss of majority by a Chief Minister This is the distinction Therefore, I was saying that I shall not read it fully, which he clearly made. The portion I read out was one there is no need, but the question is: of the eventualities which the Sarkaria Commission [English] thought off that after a general election the Constitutional The largest single Party staking claim to form the machinery will be deemed to have broken down if Government with the support of others nobody is in a majority to form a Government He gave including Independents. This is the order. an example of the breakdown of Constitutional machinery. That was what Shri Murli Manohai Joshi [Translation] was contending otherwise. I said that the Sarkaria Mr. Somnath Babu when you arrive at that juncture Commission itself had said that, and I read it out. then what you have said, go further 4.11.05. Mr Chairman, Sir. I am not supposed to be Mr. Romesh Bhandari, but today I am supposed to be the [English] hon Member’s target. The position is this. If Shri . ‘Does not talk about Floor test’ George Fernandes had read my speech carefully, he “The Governor while going through the would have found what exactly I said. I said that I do process of selection described above should not agree oven with what a Supreme Court Judge has select a Leader who in his judgement-that is said. One Judge of the Supreme Court lias said that Governor’s judgement is most likely to floor-test is notalways the test I only referred to that. command a majority in the Assembly." Therefore, the hon. Member is quoting me out of context and saying things which are not correct. I know his [Translation] agony to support a case which ho cannot sustain. Therefore the point of majority does not exist. The Governor has full power. He only calls the leader of the [Translation] majority, otherwise none. In other case he may caH SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Mr. Chairman, Sir. I people and become confident that they can form the shall not enter into a circle of questions and counter majority. questions just now. E^ut there will be a discussion on this matter not only in the House. You have referred the [English] point of the Governor that I am making ‘Halla Bol’ but “Who in his judgement is most likely to you must know that my protest is against the command a majority in the Assembly." Government, not against you So far as the matter of Governor is concerned, the protest was made against [Translation] him when he tried to topple the Leftist Government in The Governor’s subjective judgement will play a Tripura role here and the more important point is this which I English] just counter your point: SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : I said that I am no [English] lover of Mr. Romesh Bhandari. The Chief Minister, unless he is Leader of a [Translation] party which has absolute majority in the Assembly, should seek a Vote of Confidence SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : That time you took the right stand. The reason could be that there was a in the Assembly within 30 days of take Secular Government. Now, you are trying to make a over.” Secular Government. I shall not discuss here in the [Translation] House as to who we the people who supported him to It means that a Chief Minister could be selected become the Governor. But when I came to know that it was a clear mandate then I wrote a letter to the without majority who should seek a vote of confidence Hon’ble Prime Minister and the hon’ble President Shri Somnath Babu may like to say something in this against him that it would be unjust for the whole country regard. Perhaps during election of legislative assembly, to make him the Governor of the biggest State of the all the newspapers in U P. carry such types of country. advertisements for the hon’ble Prime Minister. He is Today, our hon’ble frid Shri Ram Naik had pointed not in the capacity of Party President. Had he been the out about share scam. In regard to the Share Scam leader of his party. I would have acknowledged his when our hon’ble the then Prime Minister was criticising leadership. Biju Babu. you have always opposed him. some people then a big conspiracy was hatched in the Now also you should oppose him. This is my appeal to you. Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav is present here. He Raj Bhawan by the Governor as to how the money may or may not be knowing that his party was also given by Harshad Mehta to Shri Lai Krishna Adwam, Murli Manohar Joshi and some other leaders of Bhartiya included in this. And I know that you were not allowed to hog the limelight during the election campaign. I also Janata Party will be fixed here. For, this he had misused his telephone in Raj Bhawan and power. This was also know that the six parties, the Samajwadi Party. Janata informed to the hon’ble President and also to the public. Dal, Indira Congress (Tewari), Bharatiya Kisan Kamgar However name of the Hon’ble President should not be Party, Communist Party (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India (CPI) were projected as allies. You sought mentioned here. Now. at this critical juncture when votes in your name, not for your programme nor in the ulitmately the biggest State of the country is being handed over to a person and also a responsibility is name of these parties, who contested election on their being given to him that the Government of Bhartiya own symbols. You sought votes in the name of development ...(Interruptions) Janata Party should not be formed there . It is your responsibiity. If this point is being raised outside the SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV : No. vote for the House then it is not wrong because there should not be leader of the alliance. mockery with the constitution and the mandate This is SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : No. No, it is very our feeling. A day before yesterday and today also the clear. Votes were sought in the name of development. number of seats held by a party has been a point of All these things happened. In it, it has been mentioned discussion but this is not an issue tor discussion. The in bold letters that, on one side there are communal discussion is going on Article 356 Sarkaria Commission and capitalist forces, bent upon ruining the nation and has described measures for maintaining Centre-State on the other side is the United Front, fighting for relations for the growth of democracy in the country. secularism, social justice, farmer’s interest and building There has been a lot of discussions over the manner in of a welfare State . which constitution should be used. There has been discussions on the number of seats a party has in the The Prime Minister fought the election on this assembly. We do not oppose such things. slogan. The Samajwadi Party won the seats on its own and not because of the Prime Minister. There is no Sir. it does not matter who criticised whom but the need to describe the power and political standing of question arises when one party securing only seven Mulayam Singh. I am not saying all this in his praise but oeats criticises the one who has got 176 seats. In the presenting the factual position. Mulayam Singhji is a first Lok Sabha General Election you won 236 seats self made man. But. Mr. Chairman Sir how many seats and now it is only 174-176. Such discussions in the were secured under the slogan " give me votes". I House or outside the House are not logical. They have would give you development”. The Prime Minister's party neither got right nor the the power to criticise others got seven seats, the Leftist got five, congress (Tewari) with five seats in their hands. got four and Ajit Singh’s party got eight seats. The total seats thus comes to 24. 16.02 hrs. AN HON. MEMBER : How many seats did you get7 [English] SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : We got two (Shri Basudev Acharia in the Chair) seats ...(Interruptions). But neither I was the Prime MR. CHAIRMAN : Please conclude. Minister, not did I seek votes in the name of development.. .(Interruptions) [Translation] SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : I am gong to MR. CHAIRMAN : You have spoken for over half an conclude in just five minutes. Sir, I have with me a hour. Now please finish your speech. photo-copy of a newspaper which I have got from tne SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : I am saying this Library, in which there is a very beautiful photograph of because when it is asked as to how may votes or seats the hon'ble Prime Minister. A line is written there, fou have been secured by this and that party, obviously the give me vote, I shall give you development. An appeal fact comes in our mind that the Bharatiya Janata Party of the Prime Minister Shri H.D. Deve Gowda to the emerged as the single largest party in the Uttar Pradesh People of U.P. I shall not discuss its constitutional aspect. Assembly elections and according to the norms of Parliamentary democracy not only in India the article 356 is not misused. When Dr. Ambedkar had Government there This. ..(Interruptions) This talk framed the Constitution, it was said and assured that regarding secularism... (Interruptions)the wrangling Article 356 would not be misued But today it is being among the political parties have deprived the voters of misued. It is being misused by the Governor. I believe their right to have an elected Government. that the Governor is a white elephant and the post has Shri Somnath Babu has accepted that the party has no utility. We had made a similar recommendation in secured 34 per cent of the votes and won 176 seats. the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. Sardar Surjit Singh Thus 34 per cent of the people of Uttar Pradesh have Barnala is sitting here Once the then Prime Minsiter been denied their right to have an elected Government. had asked him to misuse Article 356, he refused to do You should remeber that all this is due to the concept so and tendered his resignation. Only such Governors of secularism and non-secularism in your mind. I would can save democracy in this country. And a Governor like to have a discussion on it ...(Interruptions). In the like Bhandari, who has ignored the wishes of 34 per name of secularism rape, looting of exchequer and cent of the people undemocratic^lly in order to remain theft is allowed...( Interruptions). All this is secular. If this in power, should be removed. is going to happen in the name of secularism, then I Mr. Chairman. Sir, the third point is that what we are would request you Mr. Speaker to allow a discussion on witnessing today in Uttar Pradesh, has happened it, so that this issue can be solved here. With these several times in many states, it is for this reason I would words, I strongly oppose thisResolution and would like like to say that the Constitution should be re-written, the Members to express their views a against it. according to the wishes of the people and the condition PROF. PREM SINGH CHANDUMAJRA : Mr. of the country, people are divided along minority and Chairman. Sir, I rise to oppose the motion tabled in this majority lines. Minority Government have ruled the House by the hon. Home Minister. When the Home country for five years, indulging in scams, and rapes. Minister moved this motion, I was pained and surprised Today, the plea of minority is being given in respect of Uttar Pradesh. that opportunity is not being given to an elected Governent to come to power. Mr. Chairman, Sir, Uttar I agree with Shri George Fernandes views on Pradesh is the biggest State of India. Earlier, the State secularism. First, the wishes of the people were ignored was denied the opportunity to have simultaneous in forming the Government at the Centre. When the elections for Lok Sabha and State Assembly. And now people'gave their veredict in favour of Bhartiya Janata when the Assembly elections were held, the Bharatiya Party, which emerged as the single largest party, all Janata Party bagged the largest number of votes in others united in the name of secularism. It was said that these elections. When BJP got the opportunity to form in the elections, the Bharatiya Janata Party had fought the Government, article 356 was imposed. In the State against the Bahujan Samaj Party. In Parliament, the and the Union Government did not give them chance. D.M.K., Janata Dal, C.P.M., C.P.I., claimed that if they I think this is a mockery of democracy. It is murder of are voted to power, they would take strict action against democracy. I am surprised that an elected Government the Congressmen involved in scam, and when they in the Centre is doing this. I recall an instance that once came to power they have become quiet. I was travelling in a non-stop bus and the driver was Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to say that the meaning of stopping it at each Bus Stop. On being asked, why he secularism be explained to the people, otherwise it is stopping the Bus at each stop, he said that he was would be a betrayal against them. In Delhi, Kanpur and picking up his colleagues. On being told that it was a Nagpur large number of people were killed just because non-stop bus, he further said that he could not leave his they belonged to a particular community. This was the colleagues stranded. Similarly Parliament, the largest murder of humanity. They were executed and their institution and the Ruling party is not giving an most sacred shrine, Shri Akal Takht Sahib was invaded opportunity to them to form the Government. Can there by Army troops and tanks which are meant for defence be greater injustice than this? of the country. Where was secularism when the most Mr. Chairman, Sir, so far as article 356 is concerned sacred shrine was demolished and people of a particular Shiromani Akali Dal has been against it and during community were killed on roads. People most emergency this party had got all these people released understand the meaning of secularism. It should not be who are now in power. These people had made a the case that you call someone secular or communal in commitment not to impose article 356 in any State I feel order to remain in power. sorry that article 356 was used for the first time against MR. CHAIRMAN : Please be relevant. the Akali Government. And now it is being used against other States. For this reason we passed the Anandpur PROF. PREM SINGH CHANDUMAAJRA : This is Saheb Resolution and formed the Sarkaria Commission. relevant. What would be more relevant... (Interruptions) Rajiv-Longowal accord was also signed. It was agreed it is a matter of concern that communalism is being that Centre-State relations should be reviewed. So that spread in the name of secularism. The verdict of people is being ignored in the name of secularism. This matter [English] should be clarified. In view of the development taking SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Sir, I fully appreciate place in Uttar Pradesh, if the elected Government is not their reaction. Another claim that they are making is that given a chance to work there and if BJP, which has during the Parliament elections, we got 230 seats and emerged as a single largest party there, is not given a now what has happened? They have come down to chance to rule, I feel that the people of this country will 171. They have lost Gujarat. They are oh the way of lose faith in democracy. Therefore, in order to save losing all the Corporations and Municipalities in democracy, it is essential to give a chance to BJP to Maharashtra. Their partner, Shiv Sena is taking over form Government. there. Their condition is very, very bad. At this stage, Mayawati to form the from them. Shri Mulayam Sngh Yadav should try to Government. It is unfortunate that within the United Front, forget the past and come to the situation so that you there was no unanimity and they could not do it. can have a Government there. He is in Delhi. He should leave something in U.P. for others also. I am grateful to Now the question comes when the Proclamation and I congratulate all the MLAs of our Congress Party, has been made and brought to this House, as Congress BSP, and SP for the result that has come in U.P. during Party, what should we do? As I said, we strongly feel the Rajya Sabha elections. They have proved and they that the United Front and their partners have not done have given a signal to all over the country that the well. They have been telling that they are not in a BJP’s trump will last no further. That message has position to support so and so and will not support. gone.. .(Interruptions) When the Congress Working committee took a decision to support the United Front, we did not ask who should [Translation] be the leader and who should be so and so? We did not make it a condition. We gave unconditional support. PROF. OM PAL SINGHENIDAR (Jalesar) : Mr. They were comparing that with us. It is not proper. The Chairman, Sir, you had asked Prof. Chandumajra to BJP on their part is telling that they are the largest Party stick to the subject. Is his speech to the point? in the > ssembly. So they should have been invited by SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : From where did the Governor and they could have proved in the House these 23 members come? They came from the Congress that they had got the majority. Now the point that we are and the BSP Party. not able to understand is as to how they could have done it. We have seen that they have got some extra [E nglish] bouts during the Rajya Sabha elections but they have SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV : Shrimati Sushma been beaten very badly by all the secular parties. Swaraj says, ‘during the 13-day Ministry, MPs were The only alternative for them could have been to standing in queue to support the BJP’. Where had they claim that they were at the Centre for 13 days and they gone? Where were those MPs? No one was standing would be in U.P. for seven days. That could be one in the queue. achievement... (Interruptions) [Translation] [ Translation) SHRIMAtl SUSHMA SWARAJ : Right now we are PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT : You may form the discussing on U.P. From where did these 23 MLAs Government there. come? If they have not come from the Congress, S.P., MR. CHAIRMAN : Please be quiet. Let him speak. B.S.P., have they come from heaven? SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Madam, you do not [English] have any friends in U P. "Governor, as per the conventions of the SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : We dont want friends Parliamentary democracy, should give a like you. chance to form the Government. The majority should only be determined on the floor of SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: We also have no the House and not by the Governor." need for your company or friends like you [Translation] / English] From the point of view of the Communist Party, this We are supporting them with the expectation that is the silver Jubilee year of that Hung Assembly. But political activities for forming a secular Government will things have changed drastically in these 25 years so take place in order to stop the non-secular forces there. much so that the points on the basis of which Shri Jyoti Tomorrow is the day which is a day of national Basu staked his claim to the office of Chief Minister, and shame for us. the day on which the B.J.P. demolished on the basis ot same points when Shri Kalyan Singh is the Babri Masjid and the Ram Temple. I hope that this asking to be invited to hold the post of Chief Minister House would condemn that and will not do anything to of Uttar Pradesh, things are being proved to be incorrect. strengthen them. I am not aware as to what action was taken at that time because we never went to West Bengal Assembly to With these words, I conclude oppose you.

[Translation / Mr. Chairman, Sir, just now, I was listening to the speech delivered by Shri Sontosh Mohan Dev. He was SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (Mumbai North East) : saying that our Government has toppled in Gujarat. Mr. Chairman, Sir, when I was pondering over this matter That we have not been able to form Government in U.P in order to participate in the debate on President Rule and we have lost in some municipality elections also. in Uttar Pradesh and was searching for facts, I came to Now he is satisfied. Good. His name is Sontosh i.e. the conclusion that the situation of hung assembly in satisfaction, so he should be satisfied. As for them, they Uttar Pradesh is not the very first case of hung assembly are no longer in power in Centre. Their Government in the country. Earlier also, several States have had was not formed in Bengal. They are not in power in hung assemblies. Certain politicians are raising a protest U.P, Bihar. Tamilnadu, Maharashtra, Rajasthan, Kerala. now and when I looked back to see as to what did they How many States should I go on naming where they do in such a situation. I was reminded of an incident are not in power. I am unable to understand as to why that occurred 25 years ago. At that time, I was studying are they feeling so content on having got majority in in college, however, I would like to tell you whatever I some municipality elections. recall. The phenomenon of hung assembly occurred for Mr. Chairman, Sir, the Constitution is silent about the first time in West Bengal, 25 years ago in 1971 and the decision to be taken in case of hung Lok Sabha or an honoured and Respected leader of our country, Shri hung Assembly.lf it has not been clearly laid down in Jyoti Basu, who also has the distinction of holding the this Constitution all the political parties in the country office of Chief Minister for longest period was heading should honour the conventions and what I mean by the Left Block of C.P.M at that time. His party did not conventions is that the conventions laid down by the have majority in that hung assembly; still he approached Supreme Conventional authority is the President. I am the Governor and told him that although he did not not speaking about a particular President or a particular have full majority but by the virtue of being the leader incident. I remember thet in 1979, because prior to that of the largest party in the Assembly, he should be invited the Congress Party had the majority in Lok Sabha, for to hold the office of Chief Minister... (Interruptions) I have the very first time, the process of mustering majority never attended the Assembly in West Bengal but even began and the opinion of the President was sought. In if we have always been in the wrong, at least you 1979, after the fall of Janata Party Government led by should follow the path of truth. Shri Morarji bhai, the President invited the leader of At that time, Shri S.S. Dhawan was the Governor of Opposition Party, Shri Yashwant Rao Chavanji. The West Bengal. He‘took the same action as the present President had not asked him to prove his majority or U.P. Governor. He procured letters from all the political submit any letter or to go to the Presidents Hoqse to parties, except the C.P.M. led Left Block, wherein it was apprise him of the situation. He was not asked to do stated that the parties were not going to extend support any of these things. There was just one issue on which to C.P.M. led Left Block under any circumstances. After the Government fell. Thereafter, we have had three Lok the receipt of these letter, when Jyoti Basu told that he Sabha elections in 1989, 1991 and 1996 and all the did not have the majority, he had stated 25 years three times we have had a hung Lok Sabha. No party ago. got a majority inany of these Lok Sabha elections. When the situation of hung Lok Sabha first arose in 1989. Shri SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : He was invited Rajiv Gandhi was invited who was at that time the ...(Interruptions) I am not saying that he was eager to leader of the largest party. He was not asked to prove form the Government... (Interruptions) his majority or submit a letter. He was invited because his party was the largest party. When Shri Rajiv Gandhi [E nglish] said ‘No’ he invited Shri V.P. Singh. In the letter sent to SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV : Sir, he wrote on his him he mentioned that he was being invited not because -own... (Interruptions) Bharatiya Janata Party and Communist Party of India SHRI P.V. NARASIMHA RAO (Berhampyr): Sir, I (Marxist) were supporting him, but because the single would like to clarify. After due deliberations in the Party, largest Party had refused to form the Government and it was decided that we would write a letter to that he was being invited as his was the second largest Rashtrapatiji requesting him not to call the Congress party. In 1991 there was hung Lok Sabha. But even in Party either to ask whether they would form the Government or to form the Government; because they the hung Lok Sabha... (Interruptions) said, the letter said that : ‘We have not got adequate SHRI MUKHTAR ANIS : Shri Rajiv Gandhi had said mandate from the people’. That was the clear reason on that he would sit in the Opposition... (Interruptions) Mr. which the request not to be called was based Chairman, Sir, through you I want to tell them that Shri ...(Interruptions) Rajiv Gandhi had said in the beginning that he would SHRI RAJESH PILOT (Dausa) : This is the tradition sit in the Opposition. He would not form the Government. that we are maintaining. That is what he is saying But, it seems that your knowledge Shri Mahajanji, is [Translation] limited. Shri Narasimhaji is present, ask SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : When Shri Narasimha h i m... (Interruptions) Rao was invited, he lacked majority and at that time no SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : I know now a days you one even asked you, whether you had the majority or are being guided by the directions of Shri Rajiv Gandhis not. Shri Rajiv Gandhi is not in the picture. When Shri party. Therefore, your memory is absolutely correct. Narasimha Rao was invited for the second time, then Those who are invited, it depends upon them whether you lacked majority, and no one requested you to prove they say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’. There is no need to ask the your majority in the Rashtrapati Bhavan ...(Interruptions) concerned person whether he would say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ and then invite him ...(Interruptions) [English] SHRI JAGAT VIR SINGH DRONA : This is not the SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV : My good friend is arguing a case but he should know that at the Centre Uttar Pradesh Assembly...(Interruptions) there is no provision for President’s rule. Some exercise SHRI MUKHTAR ANIS : He had given it in writing has to be there to form the Government ... (Interruptions) at the outset that he would sit in the Opposition... (Interruptions) SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : I said it earlier. SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : You are supporting my SHRI RAJESH PILOT: Yes, you said it. point... (Interruptions) [Translation] SHRI SONTOSH KUMAR GANGWAR (Bareilly) : This is not the Uttar Pradesh Assembly. Please sit SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : Sontoshji, at least there is no provision in the C onstitution for President’s rule at dow n.. .(Interruptions) the Centre otherwise you could have gone to any extent SHRI MUKHTAR ANIS : You too have come from in the name of secularism... (Interruptions) Had you the Uttar Pradesh Assembly... .(Interruptions) agreed with Somnathji, you could have not done so SHRI SONTOSH KUMAR GANGWAR : Everyone here also ...(Interruptions) Whether any person sitting in know that happens in Uttar Pradesh Assembly and the Raj Bhawan of Lucknow has become so powerful that manner in which discussion takes place. Please learn he has denied to follow the tradition made by the how to speak ...(Interruptions) Supreme custodian of Indian Constitution i.e. hon’ble President of the country? If you do not want to follow Mr. Chairman, Sir, this incident occurred thrice. All the path of traditions then comes written documents. I the three persons took different decisions. Shri Rajiv have heared the views of all including Sarkaria Gandhi refused, Shri Narasimha Rao accepted the offer Commission. I would not like to mention it here but I will to form the Government and managed to secure make a mention about the untouched aspect of the majority... (Interrctptions) Sarkaria Commission. When Sarkaria Commission came SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Shri Rajiv Gandhi into existence, it wrote letters to various political parties did not refuse. Instead he went and refused to form the and their Chief Ministers in various States to know their Government. The record should be corrected. views. I am speaking about Article 356 only. Leaders of Janata Party had also written letters. At that time leaders [English] like Jenaji and me were also in the Janata Party. We are against keeping the Assemblies under Perhaps Shri Mulayam Singhji was also there All of us suspended animation. were acclaiming Shri Geory<_ Fernandes .(Interruptions) SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV : We were not [Translation] acclaiming, It would have been appropriate if you had said that if no party was in a position to prove the majority, SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : I am talking ot 1977 elections would be held again in Uttar Pradesh. But only You have just said ...(Interruptions) today, you are opposing what you had said to the SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV Though, I don't Sarkaria Commission. I would not like to make an appeal want to speak but his statement regarding acclaiming in the name of of Sarkana Commission... (Interruptions) Shri George Fernandes has hurt my feelings... (Interruptions) I have been compelled to say [ English / this because Shu George Fernandes was saying that SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : You did not listen he did not want to hurt the feelings of Shri Chatterjee to me nor have you read my speech. but today, he has hurt the feelings of all socialists... (Interruptions) SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : Sir, I have read your speech very carefully, not only this one but whenever SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : Of course, one socialist you have spoken. always hurt the feelings of the another socialist I am talking about Janata Party of 19 II of which so [Translation] many Members are in the power. At that time the Janata I think that certain criteria has been fixed by the Party had written to the Sarkana Commission that : Sarkaria Commission about the appointment of a Governor. I would not go into the details due to time [English] constraint but it had mentioned that a person having “In case there is no leader who can get the political background should not be appointed a support of majority Members ot the Assembly, Governor And now, the Governor of Uttar Pradesh, who the Leader of the single largest party should had been defeated by Bhartiya Janata Party in the Lok be invited to form the Ministry." Sabha elections five years back has entered the They also said : Rajbhawan anyhow. There is no possibility that he will do justice with the BJP and remain neutral. Therefore, “Any doubt regarding the majority support to had the Governor been appointed as per the criteria the Chief Minister shall be tested only on the fixed by the Sarkaria Commission, he would have taken floor of the House”. some other decision and would have a different thinking. Shri Goerge Fernandes has mentioned effectively about [Translation] the remarks made by the present Governor. I do not The Janata Party of which you were also a member want to repeat it but I would like to submit that if a and Sarkaria Commission which you mention They had Governor joins the election propaganda with the Prime also said about the Sarkaria Commission, Shri Minister it shows that he has become an agent of that Somnathji is a senior leader. Had he made that demand political party and how he can do justice? How can one which he had written to the Sarkaria Commission I expect of justice from a Governor who has no patience would have been happy. I am not opposing the till the declaration of election results and says that he imposition of the Article 356. c.p.m. has written in its would not call the single largest party to form the letter: Government? Therefore, Shri George Fernandes has made a mention about the conduct of such a person [English] who has been defeated by us in the political party. In “In case of a constitutional break-down in a such a situation, who will have faith in the decision State, provisions must be made for the taken by such Governor ...(Interruptions) I will take two democratic steps of holding election and or three minutes more. installing a new Government as in the case It has been said again and again that the Bhartiya of the Centre”. Janata Party has been isolated. Sometimes I get The party was, thus, opposed to keep the surprised. It is correct that your Government is an Assemblies in suspended animation. alliance of 13 parties and supported by 14 parties out of these 13 parties, some parties have its only one or [Translation] two Members which you count a party. Bhartiya Janata And you had written to the Sarkaria Commission Party is not alone in the Indian politics. In Maharashtra, about the voting which you are doing today. we are ruling with the Shiv Sena. Haryana Vikas party State of Uttar Pradesh

is with us which is ruling in Haryana. In Punjab. Akali of the constitution, should frame only one constitution Dal is with us which is going to form the Government of opposing BJP wherever it com es to power and that in the coming February. Samata party is also with us should be their Common Minimum Programme and if elections are conducted just now in We are sorry that the people of Uttar Pradesh have Bihar...(Interruptions) If, elections are held in Bihar. BJP given us 10-20 seats less than needed to form the Samata Party coalition Government will rule in the Government but they have also not given a clear majority State... (Interruptions) to any party constituting your Government You are It is just a misconception. In Indian politics, Bhartiya resorting to such tall talks just on the basis of 2-4 Janta Party is not alone. Four such political parties are percent of votes ...(Interruptions). Atleast speak for your associated with Bhartiya Janata Party which are ruling party...(Interruptions) Many of your party leaders have in various States. We will not be isolated by your efforts already delivered their speeches made to muster support of small parties. If we are Mr. Chairman : Please conclude. isolated due to our ideology, we welcome it. We are not concerned about it. It is due to this isolation that we SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : If they withdraw their have achieved this position. We are not afraid of such support, the number of your constituent parties will isolation. Only cowards afraid of such isolation The reduce from 13 to 12. I just wanted to say that the game to check BJP from coming into power can be United Front Government in Centre has imposed the played only by such coward people. Therefore. there is President Rule in Uttar Pradesh under a conspiracy no need to make us afraid of the threat ot political and in connivance with the hon Governor. We demand isolation. that the President Rule should be revoked and BJP Mr. Chairman, Sir. haggling is being done. Who is should be invited to form the Government there and we haggling. If you are advocating secularism to such an be allowed to prove our majority on the floor of the extent why Shri Mulayam Singh does not support Ms. House. We are in a position to prove our majority. Mayawati since both belong to secular parties. Therefore, our party does not support this Statutory Resolution. SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV : You have earlier supported, therefore extend support to her [English] again ...(Interruptions). Earlier, we had formed the THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI Government with the support of BSP and you gave INDRAJIT GUPTA) : Mr. Chairman, Sir, After the heat support to the BSP to form the Government. You have and passion which has been aroused, especially in the always been extending support to others therefore, you concluding part of this debate, I shall be brief in my should give support to Ms Mayawati again. We had reply. Brief because it seems to me that neither those earlier not given support to anyone but we had taken people who are supporting this Statutory Resolution support and still we do not want to give support. nor the people who are opposing it. are going to SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : Mr. Chairman, Sir, Shri convince each other by making further speeches. Mulayam Singh ji is absolutely correct. He is talking of a politics which I have seen earlier. I do not remember [Translation] the incidents which occurred 71 years ago. It is correct SHRI BACHI SINGH RAWAT ‘BACHDA’ (Almora) : that We had given support to Ms. Mayawati but everybody Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am ready, I also want to knows the tact that Shri Mulayam Singh ji had become speak ...(Interruptions) The President Rule has been the Cheif Minister of Uttar Pradesh only with the support intentionally imposed in Uttar Pradesh because 17 BJP of Ms. Mayawati and Shri Kanshiram. But when they MLAs have been elected from Uttarakhand. I am one of withdrew their support he had to quit the office of Chief the speakers but I am leaving my Minister. Therefore, both of us are equal so far as giving chance... (Interruptions) support is concerned. But now the question arises why we do not give support to BSP. The reason is that BSP [English] is a secular party whereas we are not. The alliance of SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : The leaders are here but such two partiei will prove like a hot icecream which they have no control over their own people. My old will not be in the interest of the country. Therefore, I friend, Shri Jaswant Singh, you are the Leader of this want that both of you should join hands and form the disciplined party, you are an ex-military man, I think, Government. All of you are appealing in the name of your party has had sufficient opportunity in this debate secularism. But it is only BJP which can form the to expound their point of view without this kind of Government in Uttar Pradesh. Such a situation is interruption and unauthorised speech making by some certainly being observed by you. Members. I said that I will be brief for this reason but In fact, the Union Government, in connivance with your hon. Member, of course, did not seem to agree the hon. Governor and keeping aside all the provisions with me that neither of these two sides, for and against the Resolution, are likely to convince each other. We so many elections, we end up without being able to have already made up our mind and you have already give a Government to the Uttar Pradesh people. made up your mind, all that remains to be done is to Of course, intra-party rivalry is not something new record a vote. Therefore, what is the use of making in this election. Intra-party rivalry is always there- another lengthy speech9 sometimes more, sometimes less. There is a struggle Sir, let me at the outset thank all the Members, on which is going on in Uttar Pradesh as to who will be whichever side of the House they may be. who have holding the Chief Ministership, whether it wili be Shri participated in this debate. After the heat and passion Kalyan Singh or Kumari Mayawati or my friend, who is subsides - which will not be very long. I think - the sitting here, Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav. What do we go people of Uttar Pradesh will still be left with the question, by9 A lot of arguments have been adduced here. I do where do we go from here9 This great Parliament - Lok not want to go into that, that numbers are not the decisive Sabha and Rajya Sabha - debated very furiously and things. But when you talk about the largest single party, stridently, who is on the right who is on the wrong, who how do you assess that it is the largest single party? It should have done what, but at the end of it all and is only by numbers and not by anything else. Here, it whatever the result of the voting may be, people will be is being argued that the largest single party, that means left with the question, where does Uttar Pradesh and in terms of numbers should be given the opportunity to the people of Uttar Pradesh go from here7 I think all of form the Government when there is no party or no us should ponder over this question a bit, all of us combination of parties which, by the same token of irrespective of which party we belong to. I think, this is numbers, is able to command the majority. Now, this my point of view, Uttar Pradesh has been a victim of question has become a very live question. At the forces which have failed the people in the sense that moment, we are functioning under the Constitution - if democratic elections are held with the purpose and the we want to change the Constitution, that is a different purpose is to provide the people of the State concerned matter, every Member has a right to change the with a suitable Government which can attend to their Constitution; one can move some amendments and try problems, which can attend to developmental projects to get it changed which provides for that party or group and works and which can redress the grievances of the of parties running a Government which can demonstrate people. that it has a majority in the House.

It is for the purpose of installing such a Government 17.00 hrs. that people go to the polls. From that point of view, I So, if we say that the single party with the largest think, we should all confess that our parties have failed number of members should be given a chance, it is an in their obligation towards the people of Uttar Pradesh. argument, of course. Many examples and many kinds Now, what is going to happen, I do not know. It is for of precedents have been given here. I am also worried all of us to think about it. But I would say that one about one thing, I can tell you. The way that our element in the whole situation, which has played a country’s polity is developing, I apprehend that in the dominant role but nobody has mentioned it here, at years to come, there will be many many instances in least, as far as I know - I heard most of the speeches, many many States where no party or coalition of parties but nobody mentioned it here - is the factor of casteism. will be able to claim and clear majority. Then what will I am surprised that nobody mentioned it. In my opinion, we do? What is to be done in those cases where the the way that casteism has dominated the thinking of option is between either handing over the Goverment to people in Uttar Pradesh, the way in which it has a party which claims to have the largest number of dominated the considerations of polarisation of forces, members though it may not have a majority, or the other voting and so on, that kind of casteism, I am afraid, is option is, not to allow any Government to be formed going to spell the death-knell for democracy. and for the President’s Rule to continue? It is a very I am not blaming any particular party I think, in a difficult choice because under the prevailing practice in greater or lesser degree, all parties in Uttar Pradesh the Constitution, the ruling party has got to have a have been tainted by this malady of casteism. You see majority. On the other hand, if there is no majority, then it in the choice of the candidates, you see it in the way you have the choice. The Governor in U.P. probably the campaign was conducted, in the way the was caught in a dilemma. He did not know what to do. propaganda was conducted and so on. So, while we I, of course, repudiate all what has been said here that are talking about secularism, which it is necessary to he was sent there with a specific mandate-. I think that talk about, what we have actually done, in my opinion, Shri George Fernandes had said that he had got may lead to the destruction in the eyes of the people evidence and proof and all that, but he would tel! t. > of Uttar Pradesh of the credibility of this electoral system, about it later on. May be he has got some evidence I this democratic system under which we have been do not know. As far as I know as Home Minister, thi*. functioning for nearly 50 years. It will have no credibility particular Governor was never given any mandate by left after so much effort and expenditure, hard work and the Centre that “You are being sent there with the sole purpose of seeing that under no circumstances should [E nglish] the BJP be permitted to come to power'. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. Minister has not yielded. SHRI RAM NAIK : The Prime Minister did not inform Please take your seat you about it. [ Translation}

[Translation] SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : If the discussion will be held on the Constitution, we are ready and I also request SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : They do not take you to be ready.. (Interruptions) you in confidence while giving their mandate. It is being done without taking you in confidence, you just SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (Bolpur) : The hon, announce the decision after it has been taken. Minister did not refer to BJP. Why did they think that he has referred to them7 (Interruptions) [E nglish] SHRI RAM NAIK : He has said it publicly also SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (South Delhi) : He is telling it in so many words ...(Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN : Shri Ram Naik, the hon. Minister has not yielded. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : I did not say that the BJP has said it ...(Interruptions) SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Anyway, some of us may have expressed disagreement with the choice of a SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (Bolpur) .You accept particular person. that position.

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : Then you do not know [Translation] the brief. You do not know the choice. Naturally you do VAIDYA DAU DAYAL JOSHI (Kota) : We are not not know the brief. anti-Muslim, We just say that anybody who resides in SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA . I know the brief as well as India, should live here as an Indian., (Interruptions) Shri George Fernandes knows the brief. Hindus will do themselves but we have to raise the status of those people... (Interruptions) SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : At least, he can have an inference which you are not trying to do. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : I did not say that you did it. Why are you wearing this cap9 SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : I can only go on the basis of my knowledge and my inform ation. If it is wrong, it is [E nglish] for any of you to choose to prove it. Sir, all that I want to say is this ...(Interruptions) SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (South Delhi) : It is SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV : Mr. Home Minister, always a misinformation. kindly be brief. We have to go. ..(Interruptions) SHRI SHRIRAM CHAUHAN (Basti) : What are your SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : My friend, the leader of views on article 356. the Shiv Sena Party. Shri Sarpotdar made a reference SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : But I would like to say I am also tempted to just make a remark on that about one thing. Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi, in his speech the Babri Masjid saying that referred to this imposition under Article 356 on U.P. as the biggest rape that has taken place on the Constitution. [Translation] I would humbly say * I hope hon. Members opposite will It was not a Masjid, it was simply a structure. I think not take it amiss - I think it would be better if the BJP I am not saying wrong... (Interruptions) I did not interrupt did not go on referring to the Constitution and what you when you were speaking then why are you constitutes its rape. Let them not discuss that question. interrupting me when I am speaking9 Why do you not Does the Constitution permit the propagation by those want to listen to anyone? people who have taken an oath on the Constitution before becoming legislators or Ministers or whatever it is, to go on propagating this theory of Hindu Rashtra? SHRI MADHUKAR SARPOTDAR (Mumbai North- Does it? You show me how. Does it permit a campaign East): I have not said that it is the “Babri Masjid”. I said to be carried on in the country against the minority that it was a “D hancha"... (Interruptions) I do not accept community saying that they are not loyal to the country it. and that they should be sent out to Pakistan? It is SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Did you not say that it permitted?... (Interruptions) was not Masjid?

[Translation] SHRI MADHUKAR SARPOTDAR : What I said, I stand by it. SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ ; If you want to discuss this point, we are ready. ..(Interruptions) You SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : I said what you said. You had asked Shri George Fernandes to be relevant. said Ithat it was a “Dhancha”... (Interruptions) JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA (Pali) This matter MR. CHAIRMAN You please take your seat, Uma is sub judice. It is for the Court to decide The High Bharati) i. He has not said anything Court will decide whether it was a “Dhancha" or a unparliamentary. (Interruptions) Masjid... (Interruptions) SHRI RAJFSH PILOT You cannot tool this MR. CHAIRMAN : Please do not interrupt. Pleased country. (Interruptions) take your seat JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : Sir. I am on a fTranslation / point of order. KUMARI UMA BHARAII You cannot say anything MR. CHAIRMAN : Under what Rule do you raise it9 against the Minister ot Home Affair's statement about 6 D ece m bet’...(Interrupt! o n s) JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA . I said that when the matter is sub judice before the High Court to decide SHRI INDRAJIT GIJPTA : you have already spoken whether it was Mosque or a “Dhancha”. how does he You please sit down . (Interruptions) call it a Mosque9 KUMARI UMA BHARATI : ‘ MR. CHAIRMAN . He is not referring to any Court [ Englishj case. SH RI R A J L S H P11 O I . H o n H o me Mi n i s t e i h a s JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : How does he say said it very rightly-. < fnterruptions) that it is a Mosque when the High Court is seized of the matter and the matter is sub judicc. It it is a "Dhancha*'. JUST IGF GUMAN MAI LODHA: Why aie you how can you say that it is a Mosque or a Mandirr' permitting turn9 SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Please remember that MR CHAIRMAN He is on a point of order. I have tomorrow is the 6th of December This day is an allowed him. anniversary of something which will be remembered in SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : Under which rule9 this country with sham e...(Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN . I have allowed him I had allowed JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : It would not be a Uma Bharati|i. I had allowed Lodhaji and I am allowing matter of shame for all. It is a matter for consideration Raiesh Pilot]i also You listen to him The High Court would decide whether it was a Mosque or a “Dhancha”. You cannot take away the jurisdiction SHRI RAJESH PILOT Hon. Home Minister very of the High Court yourself. The matter is sub rightly said that 6th of December, 1992 has been a black spot in the history of the country There was a judice ... (Interruptions) debate held here Please open the MR. CHAIRMAN : Sit down, please. Do not interrupt. record... (Interruptions) He is replying. He is not yielding. He is not referring to any Court case. MR. CHAIRMAN : Please take your seats. He has not completed yet SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : I say that this day is an anniversary of an event which blackened the face of (Interruptions) India throughout the world... (Interruptions) J11 ST IC GUMAN MAL LODHA What is the point of MR. CHAIRMAN : Sit down, please. He is replying order9 to the points raised by the Members of the House. So, MR CHAIRMAN ; You will have your say also. Let you please listen to the hon. Home Minister. Take your him complete. He has not completed yet. seats, please. JUSTICE G-UMAN MAL LODHA . Why are you .. (Interruptions) allowing a controversial thing9 MR. CHAIRMAN Kumari Uma Bharati. are you MR CHAIRMAN : ff you have any point to make, let raising any point of order9 Under what rule are you him complete first. raising it? ...(Interruptions) SHRI RAJESH PILOT : I want to draw the attention of the whole House to one fact. There was a discussion MR. CHAIRMAN : She is raising a point of order. Sit held on the 8th or 9th December, 1992 when Shri down, please. Vajpayee spoke, he also said KUMARI UMA BHARATI : Sir. I am not on any point of order. But I am on a point of correction... (Interruptions) [Translation] MR. CHAIRMAN : No, you take your seat. I will not We are also sorry for this. allow you. * Not recorded (Interruptions) [English] contempt of Court by the High Court, at that time also He is on record having said it on that day. Now the question of the Constitution was there. What was today we want to know from the BJP friends, what is the Communist Party doing at that time? When he was their stand on this issue9 Do they support that act of 6th convicted for contempt of Court, he was the Chief December or not7 They must say (Interruptions) Minister of Kerala... (Interruptions)

SHRI PR. DASMUNSI : Mr. C hairm an. Sir, the / Translation / statement made by Uma Bharatiji about 6th December SHRI RAM NAIK : Mr. Chairman. Sir. that has been be expunged from the record. She must withdraw this demolished The matter, whether it was a structure or a and apologise to this House mosque is sub judice MR. CHAIRMAN ; That will not go on record. Nobody [English] will speak except the Home Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN : Ram Naikji. under what rule you MR. CHAIRMAN : Please take your seats. The hon are speaking7 Home Minister is speaking. Please listen to him. SHRI RAM NAIK : Sir, it is under the rule Now. only the hon. Home Minister will speak and ..(Interruptions) nobody else will speak [Translation] (Interruptions) ‘ SHRI MOHAN RAWALE (Mumbai South-Central) : MR CHAIRMAN : Justice Lodha. you please take When Shri Rajesh Pilot raised this issue, then you have your seat. not spoken about any rule. Now why are you asking JUSTICE GIJMAN MAL LODHA : I would take my him about rule7 seat but this 6th December should not be /English] discussed.. (Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN .Rawaleji, I have not allowed you. MR CHAIRMAN : I have given my ruling that only I have allowed only Ram Naikji. the hon. Home Minister will speak now. / Translation / (Interruptions) SHRI RAM NAIK : Mr Chairman. Sir, that was a MR. CHAIRMAN : Justice Lodha. please take your structure or a mosque, who has demolished that, who seat are to be punished, all these things are subjudice. then how this issue has come up for discussion7 It could Yes. Mr Home Minister have been possible if they had spoken something SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Sir. I do not wish to go relevant. My second point of order is this that they are further into the question of the Constitution and what speaking irrelevant... (Interruptions) the Constitution enjoins upon us to do or not to do. It MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. Home Minister referred is a fact that regarding that tragic event, there had been to the violation of the Constitution. So, that is not many interpretations by many different quarters. irrelevant. JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : What is the Please take your seat relevance of it here7 ...(Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN : Please take your seat Why are SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : You say that the your rising yourself? Are you on a point of order. issue regarding the 6th December cannot be mentioned JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : Yes. Sir I am on here because of a judicial proceeding. It is very clear a point of order. to us. Naturally, you want to avoid any reference to it ...(Interruptions) I am on a point of order under the rule MR. CHAIRMAN : Under what rule? quoted by Shri Ram Naik. ...(Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN : Are you raising the same point JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : Sir. the of order? proclamation under Article 356 is not meant for 6th SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : It is similar, if he December. 1992. It has no relevance with 6th December. is allowed to raise it, I should also be allowed. The old proclamation was issued. The old proclamation was dead. Now. the fresh elections have taken place. JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : Then, I should The relevance of 6th December is not there. also be allowed. If the question of the Constitution is there, I would MR. CHAIRMAN : I have given a ruling that the ask him, when Namboodripad was convicted for Home Minister, while referring to it, has only given a statement of facts, he has referred only to the violation the Inter-State Council, which is a constitutional of the Constitution. machinery. It had not been convened. This Council was SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE I accept that. defunct. We called that meeting on the 20th October and it was attended by, apart from the Prime Minister, JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : The matter is sub one Governor, 23 Cheif Ministers, two Administrators of judice, Union Territories and 31 Ministers from the Central and MR. CHAIRMAN : He is not referring to a matter State Governments. One ot the items which was which is sub judice discussed in the context of the Sarkaria Commission’s .. (Interruptions) Report naturally, was the question of Article 356. MR. CHAIRMAN : That is over, Shri L.odha. please So. I am only informing you two things. One is that take your seat. what should be done regarding Article 356. The opinion ot the people who attended the meeting was not the ...(Interruptions) same. There were different opinions. Finally, this was SHRI G.M, BANATWALLA (Ponnani) : We are not to what decided. I am just reading out the conclusion of raise a point of order; we are to raise the Masjid. We the meeting have to raise not mere points of order; we have to raise the Masjid so that this national shame comes to an end. “The Council observed that based upon past That is my appeal. experience and judicial pronouncements, the SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Sir, if an hon. Member continuance/amendment of Article 356 is takes the plea of the matter being sub judice it is for the required to be further examined and Chair to give a ruling on that. accordingly there was a consensus that this should be referred to the Standing Committee MR CHAIRMAN : I have already given my ruling. of the Inter-State Council” . You please continue... (Interruptions) SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Well, I am not going into Subsequently, a Standing Committee has been that. If it is a question of irrelevancy, that question should formed consisting ot a number of Cheif Ministers, have been raised when the hon. Shiv Sena Leader including the Chief Ministers of Maharashtra and spoke on that ...(Interruptions) Rajasthan and, I think, five Central Ministers. So, we SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN Why are you joining are not trying to cut the throat of our BJP friends. They issue with him on an irrelevant issue? have been given due place in all these important SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA ; He is your strongest ally. meetings, consultations etc. The consensus was that Without him, you cannot exist in Maharashtra. I have this Com m ittee should be amended; if it is to be given due weight to his observations. amended, how it should be amended in the light of Supreme Court observations etc. So, I think we should (Translation] bide our time. We must be a little more patient about VAIDYA DAU DAYAL JOSHI (Kota) : Mr. Chairman, this very important issue. It is a very important issue. It Sir,. ..(Interruptions) cannot be solved simply by shouting at each other. It MR. CHAIRMAN :Please sit down and listen first. has to be gone into thoroughly and studied properly. All the points raised by you are being replied by the Therefore, as far as the present case in Uttar Pradesh Minister of Home Affairs. Please let him is concerned, the opinion of the Government is that reply... (Interruptions) under the prevailing circumstances the Governor had MR. CHAIRMAN : Joshi ji, he is replying to all your no other option than what he did because there was no questions. Please sit down. party or group of parties which was able to claim a majority in the House. [English] We did not dissolve the Assembly. We did not SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Sir, why do you listen only dissolve the Assembly in Gujarat either. It was kept to them? The hon. Minister of Parliamentary Affairs, under suspended animation. After a certain time when sitting by my side, is telling me that there is no time, that some people could come together and form a majority, time is running out and so I should conclude. I have the Assembly was revived...(Interruptions) many things to speak about but I do not want to provoke anybody. SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : So, you are waiting for the same situation to arise here also! There has been so much controversy and discussion about Article 356 how it should be used and [Translation] how it should not be used; whether it should be used SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : To manipulate the at all and sp on. I am only giving one bit of information majority you have kept U.P. Assembly under suspended to the House, which I think has some importance. After animation. Otherwise you could have dissolved the U.P. many years, our Government convened a meeting of Assembly... (Interruptions) SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Dear sister, he was the the difficulty of the electorate not in our competitive Chief Minister of Gujarat. Again he has become Chief politics being able to throw up a clear electoral answer. Minister just now. He used to sit on the seat of Justice In that electoral answer, the Union Home Minister Saheb. This is not our fault that your party has been suggested, that we either permit a minority party to form divided in Gujarat...(Interruptions) a Government and to prove its majority, etc.. or we do PROF RASA SINGH RAWAT : Where are Mandal not permit a Government to be formed at all. That is Saheb and other members of your parly...(Interruptions) precisely the dilemma that faces us in the State of UP; and in that dilemma it is the m isapplication of Article SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA Your party had full majority 356, it is the conduct of Governor the principle of calling in Gujarat. There was no one to challenge you party. the single largest party to form the Government in Uttar Inspite of that your party splitted in the race of Pradesh whi.ch has been our stand and continues to be chair... (In terrup tions) our stand DR. SATYANARAYAN JATIA : You have divided the The Union Home Minister attempted it because he B.J.P. by playing the role of "ShakuriC...(Interruptions) has a brief to carry and he has the burdensome duty of JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA : You have left the carrying the lot that he is sitting with today. But the C.P.M. just for the sake of power ...(Interruptions) rationale that he put across on imposing Article 356, to continue to deny the BJP, the single largest party in UP, SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Please continue. There the right to govern is, I submit, a very great wrong that is the Government of your party in Rajasthan and Delhi. has been committed. It is because and these are the You have got right to speak ...(Interruptions) very words that you have spoken. The challenge that VAIDYA DAU DAYAL JOSHI : In our childhood we Indian democracy faces is precisely the challenge that used to hear that Communist Party of India was a single is mirrored in Uttar Pradesh today and it is because of party. Now it has been divided into 36 different a lack of wisdom, the shortsightedness and a limited Communist parties... (Interruptions) political approach that we compund our diffculties.

[E nglish] MR. CHAIRMAN ; Okay. ‘Please’ conclude.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA ; I do not at all agree with SHRI JASWANT SINGH : How can I be ‘pleased’7 the charge which has been made that the United Front I am displeased Since I am displeased, I cannot support. parties, severally or jointly, are only interested in keeping We will be jedgedand we will certainly be judged. This the BJP out of power. Then, you would not have been is not an issue that will remairr a politically partisan in power in so many States. Nobody is trying to dislodge issue. This is a challenge to the Indian democracy. It is you by horse trading or by any other means. It is up to because the present Governor of Uttar Pradesh and the you whether you can retain your power or not. present Government supported by this lot, who earlier With these words, I commend that the proclamation found fault, are failing in meeting their challenge, the which has been issued on the 17th of October, 1996 present challenge to democracy, we are failing under Article 356 of the Constitution in relation to the democracy in Uttar Pradesh, and are denying the BJP State of Uttar Pradesh be approved by this August the right, their just right to form the Government. House. We simply cannot be a party to this fake and a hoax SHRI JASWANT SINGH (Chittorgarh) : Mr. Chairman. division making process in the House. I seek withdrawal Sir, hon. Home Miniter is the senior most Member of from the House. this House. He is a dear and respected friend of old standing and I have always held him in my personal 17.34 hrs. regard and I will continue to do that. At this stage, Shri J as want Singh and some other Hon. Home Minister, when he intervened, found it hon. Members left the House...(Interruptions) very difficult to take decision between maturity, seniority THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI H.D. DEVE GOWDA): and wisdom which is natural to him and the politics that Sir, with your kind permission... (Interruptions) becomes incumbent on him to play because of the portfolio that he holds and the company that he keeps. MR. CHAIRMAN: We should adopt the Resolution I entirely share with him the concern that he voiced on first and then, the Prime Minister will speak. the problems that we are facing, for example of casteism. SHRI SRIKANTA JENA : Sir, he just wants to clarify It is a very real problem. a few points. I commend the hon. Home Minister for having put MR. CHAIRMAN : All right. his finger on to a very serious problem. I also commend him for pointing out a very real difficulty which is * Published in the Gazette of India. Extraordinary part-11. precisely the difficulty that this House was seized of, Section-2 dated 5.12.1996. SHRI H.D. DEVE GOWDA: Sir, on 10th October, the But we may take up item No.13, if there is a consensus election results ot UP Assembly were finally declared in the House Has the House the consensus to take up by the Election Commission. Till 17th October, the item No.13? Governor had given sufficient opportunity to all political THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS parties including the so-called single largest party to AND MINISTER OF TOURISM (SHRI SRIKANTA JENA) explore all possibilities and come before him as to : Sir, we may take up item No.13. whether they are in a position to muster strength to form a Government and give a suitab'eiiGovernmentj'iiHe THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF waited for one week to send the report to the URBAN AFFAIRS AND EMPLOYMENT AND MINISTER Government ot India or to the President Sir, they have OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY totally failed. No political party was able to muster AFFAIRS (DR. U. VENKATESWARLU) . I beg to move . strength or with the combination of other political parties, "That the Bill further to amend the Delhi they were unable to submit the list to the Governor. Development Act, 1957, be taken into Then the Governor had no option except to send his consideration” recommendations to the Government of India and also the President of India Under these circumstances, there Sir, the Delhi Develpment Authority was set up under was no option except to impose President's rule in UP. the Delhi Develpment Act, 1957 with the object of promoting and securing the development of Delhi Recently, there were by elections conducted for according to Plan. Three representatives of the erstwhile Rajya Sabha where the BJP had tried its best to see Metropolitan Council of Delhi constituted through the that their candidates win the elections All the three Delhi Administration Act of 1966 were represented in candidates of BJP were defeated in Rajya Sabha the Delhi Development Authority under sub section (3)(f) elections. That itself is a clear indication that the mandate of the Act. Since the Metropolitan Council has been of the people of UP was for secular democracy and our abolished and the Legislative Assembly has been party's commitment is for secular democracy. It is a constituted for the National Capital Territory of Delhi, clear indication. there has been no representation of the elected body Sir, I would like to make it clear that even with all of Delhi in the Authority. In order to ensure effective the differences amongst ourselves, whether it is the deliberations and democratic functioning of the Delhi BSP or the Samajwadi Party or the Congress or other Development Authority, it became necessary to provide parties which are now running the Government, they for three representatives of the Legislative Assembly of have got differences all the three BJP candidates were the National Capital Territory of Delhi as Members of totally defeated in the recent by-elections to Rajya the Delhi Development Authority. To achieve this object, Sabha That itself is a clear indication and much more the Delhi Development (Amendment) Bill, 1996 has than that, it was a secret ballot where they could have been introduced in the Lok Sabha. played all types of the political manoeuvrings. Sir, with With these few words, I move that the Delhi all these things, they failed. I know what all had Development (Amendment) Bill, 1996 be taken into happened during the period of by elections. They were consideration and be passed. unable to muster strength. That itself is a clear indication that what the Governor had recommended was totally SHRI JAG MOHAN (New Delhi) : Sir, there is a lot on the basis of merit and there was nothing wrong In of disturbance. it. so, I request this August House to see that this MR. CHAIRMAN :Order please. Resolution is approved. SHRI JAG MOHAN : I am saying a few points which MR. CHAIRMAN T he question is : may not really concern the present Minister. But these have to be taken consideration as a part of the "That this House approves the Proclamation Government... (Interruptions) issued by the President on the 17th October, 1996 under article 356 of the Constitution in Still some talk is going on. Nobody is listening. relation to the State of Uttar Pradesh". Sir, I would like to seek the attention of the hon. The motion was adopted Prime Minister because he is also holding charge of the Ministry of Urban Affairs. Sir, the very first point which I would like to raise is that the Government have now decided to include three 17.39 hrs. MLAs to ensure effective democratic functioning of the DELHI DEVELPMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 1996 Delhi Develpment Authority. Now, this new Act of National Capital Territory came three years ago. Why MR. CHAIRMAN : Now, according to the List of have the Government deprived this Territory or the Delhi Business, the next item is Constitution Amendment. Bill. Development Authority of this effective democratic