the interview words matt mueller Superstar, independent cinema icon, Oscar-winning director, political animal, rebel… is the golden boy who’s succeeded on his own terms. Which is why he’s now filming Captain America 2, playing S.H.I.E.L.D. honcho Agent Pierce. ‘‘I’m doing it because it’s different,’’ he says. ‘‘It could be fun.’’

an…? Dan, can you come here Sundance London, which has just finished. as many flops to his name as hits (for every Out for a second?” Robert Redford Redford, it must be said, didn’t appear all that Of Africa, a Havana; for every Indecent Proposal, an ambles into a suite at the engaged at its opening press conference and isn’t Up Close & Personal). Redford’s last bona fide success swanky George V Hotel in sure how the festival’s second (incongruous) was 2001’s Spy Game, opposite Brad Pitt, while Paris that’s been designated appearance at the O2 went. “I know the weather The Company You Keep marks his first acting gig for our meeting with the was good,” declares the 76-year-old Californian, since 2007’s Lions For Lambs although he’s American legend. We don’t for whom Sundance tours of duty are more currently making up for lost time with roles in use the term lightly: Redford endured than relished these days. J.C. Chandor’s All Is Lost and playing the head of is one of the last remaining But the lightning rod for today’s tête-á-tête S.H.I.E.L.D. in Captain America: Winter Soldier. figures for whom that fulsome soubriquet is not is contemplative drama The Company You Keep His face is craggy and lived-in. But close your just fitting but entirely necessitated, given his (initially slated for a June release, the film eyes and you could be listening to Bob Woodward Dstanding as the blond superstar who lorded went back to 2014 as Total Film went to press). eliciting information from Deep Throat in All over Hollywood with Butch Cassidy And The It focuses on ex-members of the Weather The President’s Men, or even the rich businessman Sundance Kid, The Way We Were, The Sting and Underground, the American dissent group that offering Demi Moore $1m for sex in Indecent All The President’s Men; who won the Best Director instigated a bombing campaign to protest the Proposal. Redford’s voice seems hardly to have Oscar with his filmmaking debut, 1980’s Ordinary Vietnam War. Redford depicts these once fiery changed, which makes for a strangely soothing People; and who permanently altered the radicals decades down the line, when they’ve experience as he opens up to Total Film about landscape of independent cinema as founder mostly settled into normal lives under assumed his fabled life and illustrious career. and ongoing figurehead of the Sundance Film identities. Among them are Susan Sarandon, Loyalty is a key theme in The Company You Keep: Festival. (Renowned for his unshakeable beliefs/ Julie Christie and Redford himself, whose loyalty to people, loyalty to beliefs. Is that an stubbornness, he used his stardom to offer character is forced on the run when a young important quality to you? alternatives to Hollywood storytelling). reporter (Shia LaBeouf) threatens to expose Yes, it’s extremely important to me. It’s But back to Dan, who we take to be one of his past. It’s Redford’s ninth film as a director a wonderful element to work with, too, because the two entourage members sitting in the corner, but only the third in which he also stars: sometimes loyalty can go into a dark area. I was furiously tapping at Blackberries and iPads – and “Directing myself is not comfortable for me.” not so much interested in making a film about presumably the one with the XY chromosome. The blue-eyed golden boy of 1970s Hollywood, that time; I was interested in those people 30 Not realising that Total Film has already taken up Redford fortuitously rose to the top right as the years later. How do they feel now? What was position, Redford hesitates, apologises (“Oh, film industry entered a purple-patch of unfettered, the cost of going underground? That’s what I’m sorry”) and retreats with ‘Dan’ in tow, only auteur-driven creativity and an actor could interested me. I was fascinated by the fact that to emerge minutes later with problem resolved legitimately forge his career on a one-for-me, the loyalty they felt in the early 1970s, that united and conversational mode engaged. Grabbing the one-for-them ethos. Refusing to trade on his them to each other and to their cause, was the chair beside us, outfitted in an American-classic looks, his movies came with attitude and political only thing left in some cases. Because when they ensemble of blue jeans and blue check shirt with heft. Subsequent decades have proved rockier for went underground, they were not able to be elbow patches, he kicks off with chit-chat about Redford, with Sundance swallowing his time and completely who they were and over time it’s >>

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TFM208.tf_int.indd 112 5/20/13 9:58 AM robert redford

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TFM208.tf_int.indd 113 5/20/13 9:58 AM the interview hard to live that way. It’s hard to not be able to stand up and say who you really are, even if you started another life and became a respectable citizen, you became a lawyer or a soccer mom. Some have come to resent the passions of their youth because they’re stuck with false identities, whereas others are still radical and committed to doing the same things they did years ago. That’s the character Julie Christie plays. You’ve had your share of incredible female co-stars over the years, but it’s great to see you on screen with Julie Christie. did you want to cast someone who, like yourself, could be seen as emblematic of the ’70s? Not so much on a Redford-Christie basis as much as iconic in the sense of what we both stood for when we were young politically. We were very aligned politically in our younger times. Our careers pretty much started at the same time, we had success at the same time, we became known in our countries about the same time. So I suspect there was something iconic about it. I always liked her quality as an actress. Whatever she did, truth always came out. Why did you cast Shia labeouf as the journalist? Shia’s character is the driving force of the film; he’s like Inspector Javert in Les Misérables. He had two things that I thought were vital for the character: as a human being, he’s got a quick mind and a fast tongue. His mouth and his mind are very close together so therefore he has an exceptional mental energy that I thought was really good for the character. I’m very happy with his performance. do have a strong political and social agenda when looking for thrills: you direct? redford stars and directs I don’t look at it that sharply. What interests me in The Company You Keep. is story. To let the audience come in, you have to

did you also feel disenchanted when that movement embraced violence? ‘I was always looking for I could see it was the beginning of the end. When a movement turns to violence, it starts to eat itself and that’s exactly what happened. And then a character that was caught I saw a few people that were committed to the cause who went underground and took on false between two forces. That’s identities to remain free. At the time, I said, “This is fascinating stuff but it’s too close to the event to do anything with it.” A few years ago, always interested me’ I felt we were far enough removed that it could be told as an American story. The story that reach for the emotional core of the story you’re I make films about human beings. If I were I loved most as a child was Les Misérables and telling. And for me with this film, the emotional to categorise how I would structure a film I’m the hunter and the hunted has been thematic core is with how these characters feel and what preparing to make, it’s story first, then character, in pretty much all the films that I’ve done. my character feels about his daughter. When you then emotion. I grew up in a lower working-class When do you think you first developed your strip away the Weather Underground and the community where there was not much to do for political consciousness? violence – I didn’t spend a lot of time on that entertainment, so I read. I read mythology; I was There’s an irony in me playing a teacher in because we’ve seen that in documentaries, and told stories to calm me down. Story is paramount Lions For Lambs in that, since I was kicked out it’s the emotional underpinnings for each for me. With this film, I could relate to the story of college, I never completed school. I was never character that interest me. Without them, because I was there when the Weather Underground a good student. I wanted to be out in the world; I would not have wanted to tell this story. were around; I was not part of it but I agreed I wanted to go to other countries to see how other Still, Lions For Lambs was strongly against the with the cause, which was that people shouldn’t cultures lived. I was anxious to get educated so Iraq War; The Milagro Beanfield War took a stand have to sacrifice themselves and others in when I left college, I worked to save the money against rampant development; Quiz Show was a war they did not believe in. It was an illicit to go to Europe to study art. I lived on the bum. a metaphor for american disillusionment. Including and immoral war. I was spiritually connected to I had little to no money. I had to be resourceful. this one, your films tend to convey an overt, that movement. But it was 1970: I was starting I went to art school in Florence for seven months; left-leaning viewpoint. a career, I had a family, so I was not a part of it. I was in France, Germany, Switzerland and Spain.

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TFM208.tf_int.indd 114 5/20/13 9:58 AM robert redford I would stay in youth hostels, and I travelled and hitchhiked and met students from other countries who would challenge me politically. Kids my own age in those countries were very Five star turns politically aware and I was ashamed that I wasn’t. So I got interested and by the time I returned The best of Bob…. to America, I had a much broader view of my # BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID country and an intense interest in it. 1 1969 HHHHH Back to loyalty, early in your career, you stuck In 1969, Redford excelled as a skier in Downhill by the side of particular directors: George Roy Racer. Not heard of it? That’s because his other Hill with Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid, movie – buddy western Butch Cassidy, with Paul The Sting, The Great Waldo Pepper; Michael Newman – took more than $100m domestically Ritchie with Downhill Racer and The Candidate; and catapulted Redford to worldwide celebrity. and Pollack, who directed you seven times… The stars and director George Roy Hill would With Sydney, we rose to that height together. re-team for 1973’s con-caper The Sting, and, in I was thinking the other day, “How long have 1981, Redford named his non-profit institution I been in this business? Fifty-three years… Jesus!” for independent filmmakers after his character. It seems like yesterday. But Sydney was a dear friend and our careers rose together. We met 1973 HHH in 1960, we were both actors then and the first THE WAY WE WERE #2 Redford was never afraid of saying ‘no’ (Who’s film I ever made was called War Hunt [Korean Afraid Of Virginia Woolf, The Graduate) and he War drama from 1962]. Sydney played my initially turned down the lead in this romance. commanding officer in the film and he and His concerns proved authentic – there’s too much I struck up a conversation while we were glossing of political issues as the film tracks making that film. I was in the theatre in New Redford and Barbra Streisand from college in York at that time and I’d come out to the ’30s to the break-up of their marriage in the and we became friends. We talked about our ’50s – but Time Out noted Redford brought dreams, our aspirations. He didn’t think he had “more weight… than it deserves.” One of seven a career as an actor, and was more interested collaborations with director Sydney Pollack. in directing. A few years later, I came back from Germany to the United States to do my first Hollywood film with Natalie Wood [1965’s #3 THREE DAYS OF THE CONDOR 1975 HHHH Inside Daisy Clover], and then I did a second Pollack and Redford again question American one with her right after that [1966’s This Property government, the actor this time playing a CIA Is Condemned]. There was no director; a lot of researcher who returns from lunch to find all directors had turned it down. Sydney’s name his colleagues dead... Soaked in Watergate was at the bottom of the list and Natalie’s going disillusionment, it combines Hitchcockian down it and said, “Who’s this guy Pollack?” thrills with Pakula paranoia. “It’s always talked I said, “Oh, he’s great! You’ve got to go with about as one of the most influential paranoid him.” I just wanted him because he was a friend. thrillers,” said Pollack in 2007, a year before I thought at least I’d have somebody I could his death. “It’s exciting to have anything that talk to. To make a long story short, she met you’ve done that’s 30 years old talked about.” him, he got hired, and he and I collaborated behind the scenes on that film because the script ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN 1976 HHHHH was terrible. #4 A self-proclaimed journalism junkie and a keen As your careers progressed, did you bring projects political beast (he attributes both to “growing to him or vice versa? up in a state that had Nixon for senator”), Redford Both. I went to him with Jeremiah Johnson and teamed with Dustin Hoffman to dramatise the said, “Why don’t we make this film about a man exposure of the Watergate scandal by journalists in the wilderness?” We filmed it on my property Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. A riveting in Utah. Then he came to me with The Way We character piece that makes capital use of its We r e . I said, “This guy is just a male model, he’s locations, it even makes typing exciting – got nothing to do.” So I turned it down. Sydney director Alan J. Pakula insisted gunshots and said, “But I want you to do it.” I said, “He’s just whiplashes were layered over the clacking keys. there because of the way he looks. I don’t want to do that. But if he can have a flaw…” Sydney 1993 HHH said, “OK, we’ll develop a flaw.” So I committed INDECENT PROPOSAL #5 Married couple Demi Moore and Woody to the film but I was really committing to him; Harrelson head to Vegas when the recession I trusted him. And it went on and on: Three hits… and score a jackpot when magnate Redford Days Of The Condor, The Electric Horseman, Out offers seven figures for a night with Moore. Of Africa… It was a great friendship and Billionaire John Gage may have landed Bob a collaborative relationship. Razzie nomination, but the premise percolated You’ve witnessed ample changes in the film into many a watercooler conversation and Redford industry. At the same time, you have arguably regarded it as a “piece of fun.” He would star in changed the industry yourself. Would you agree? only two more films during the ’90s, and made I don’t mean to be falsely modest but it’s hard just five screen appearances in ’00s. for me to see that second part. That’s been >>

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TFM208.tf_int.indd 115 5/20/13 9:58 AM the interview brought to my attention but it’s better for other film community, which was very small at that people to make that judgment. All I know is that time, and said, “Do you have any films?” We I wanted to do something that I felt was needed had about 25 films the first year. Meanwhile, in 1979, 1980. In the 1970s, I had enjoyed being the advisors I had in my life at that time tried able to do larger films that I thought were good: to stop me from doing it. They said, “You’ve The Way We Were, The Great Gatsby, Butch Cassidy… already wasted time with the Sundance Lab.” Those were big movies with big budgets but they But I told them I was going to take a chance. were also good stories with good characters. It took about five or six years for it to survive At the same time I wanted to tell other stories and then suddenly it started to move and that were a bit edgier, a bit progressive. And get bigger and bigger. Now there are 4,500 I was allowed to do that. If I were to do, say, submissions, about 14 theatres in Park City The Way We Were, they’d let me make The and 60,000 people that come. On one hand, Candidate; they’d let me make Downhill Racer. it’s a great success because it’s achieved its If I did All The President’s Men, then I could do purpose. Is it any fun for me? No. Not like it Jeremiah Johnson. Those were very low-budget was in the beginning. films but they were made by studios. So I was Why’s that? blessed. Then things changed… It took a lot of time out of my career. Now With the birth of the blockbuster: Jaws, Star Wars, I’m trying to go back to what I love doing. Superman… You sound a bit remorseful. do you have any regrets? Hollywood’s a business, that’s all it ever has No, not in my professional life. I’ve been blessed been. It was always going to follow the money to do good things the way I wanted to do them. so when young people started spending money, But it has cost me sometimes. The idea of they started making films for the youth market. remaining independent and being free from That’s when you started getting the big blockbusters: other pressures – corporate pressures – was Superman… cartoons… big, expensive films more important than anything. I’ve worked filled with special effects and action. Which hard to maintain that, and I feel good about is fine. But I felt they were going to abandon that. But it’s been painful at times. ‘The idea of remaining independent was more important than anything, but it’s been painful at times’

the other kinds of films. Since change is Painful in what way? He lives in the mountains and he doesn’t do inevitable, I wanted to make sure that the Sometimes there would be resentment for me movies any more.” So people stopped offering edgier films, ones more about American life, staying outside of the mainstream, and you felt me parts. Those were some of the painful could be kept alive. like there was a negative feeling about you that times. But I survived. and so, Sundance was born… prevented you from being able to do things What do you think about the current state of Initially, we developed a lab and I would you wanted to do. It would go away over time, independent cinema? ask colleagues of mine – writers, directors, but there would be a period that was difficult. It’s difficult. It’s always been difficult and it will cameramen, editors – to come up to Sundance Painful in terms of what I gave up in order to continue to be difficult. The state of the film and work with novices filmmakers who had have a life, have a private life… My feeling was business in general is not particularly healthy. fresh ideas, to help these new voices develop simple and maybe old-fashioned: I always said Independent film has always had to struggle for their skills so at least they can get their films that my craft is the most important thing to me. a place in the universe. The exhibition arena made. Five, six years later, I realised that once But you had to give up certain things because is better now but overall, mostly due to the we had done that, there was no place for these you were committed to developing your craft. economy, it’s a difficult time for independent independent films to go. That led to the original Somebody would come to you and offer you films to get made. idea of the festival. We went to the neighbouring a lot of money to do a part you didn’t really While big studio films like The Dark Knight rely town, Park City, and asked if we could use want to do. I’d say, “No, I’d rather do this smaller on a metaphorical approach to tackle political its single theatre in January and they said, film.” People would say, “You’re crazy.” Or discourse, american independents, it appears, are

“Sure.” Then we contacted the independent they’d say, “He’s just doing Sundance now. becoming less political. Why do you think that is? REX MOVIESTORE, KOBAL, ARCHIVE/GETTY ALLSTAR, HULTON IMAGES,

18 august, 1936 1962 1969-1973 Born Charles Screen debut in Butch Cassidy And ife ine Robert Redford Jr. War Hunt. Meets The Sundance Kid, to Martha and Sydney Pollack, The Way We Were Charles Sr. in Santa stars in seven and The Sting strike Monica, California. of his films. box office gold.

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TFM208.tf_int.indd 116 5/20/13 9:58 AM robert redford xxxxxx [All Is Lost] was digital, and one of the reasons I made it is because it gave me the chance to watch and to learn. It’s about a man on a boat lost at sea, and I’m the only character in it. People think digital is faster because you don’t have to cut, you just keep rolling. But I noticed it was much more difficult; you have cables and wires all over the place and that slows the process down. And the image is sometimes almost too perfect. I had the choice to go with digital on The Company You Keep, but I went with film. leonardo diCaprio is apparently curious to know what you make of his take on Gatsby. did you mind when you heard that baz luhrmann was remaking it, particularly as he criticised your version for being ‘inert’? The Great Gatsby does not belong to me. I don’t own Gatsby. It’s fine. Leonardo is a very good actor. I like him, I think he’s wonderful. I think Carey Mulligan is wonderful. It’s a story that is timeless and that can be told again and again. There were versions of Gatsby before we did our one. I don’t think about it any other way than, “Sure”. I’m interested in seeing it, eventually. It’s just one of those stories that is timeless. You were talking earlier about noticing the industry shift when films like Superman arrived on the scene. You’re about to join the superhero universe yourself in marvel’s upcoming Captain America: The Winter Soldier… I’ve always liked all kinds of pitches. [Laughs] Curveball, fastball, slowball… But it’s very simple: I’m only doing it because it’s different. It’s not a major part. I have other films that I’m going to be doing now too, like A Walk In The Woods [an adaptation of Bill Bryson’s memoir, in which Redford the big con: as grifter will play the author for director Richard Linklater]. Johnny Hooker in 1973’s classic The Sting. That’ll be Nick Nolte and I as two older guys trying to hike the Appalachian Trail and everything goes wrong. It’s a comedy, and Commercial films that cost a lot of money shy I decided against it because everybody knows I want to do a comedy. This was just a step away from controversy because they’re afraid everything now. There’s nothing to reveal. along the way. I said, “This could be interesting they won’t make their money back. All The When I made The Candidate, you could inform and fun.” President’s Men had a fairly high budget for its people what was going on behind the scenes, Wouldn’t you have been perfect casting for time; it cost $7m in 1975. So the studio was how a candidate who was totally unqualified Captain america himself 35 years ago? Would taking a chance on it and it did well but I don’t could be put up for office because of the way you have signed up for that? think that film could be made now. We had he looked; you could show how the machinations Oh god, no no no. But as a matter of fact, the time and the money to make it as good as behind the scenes worked. Now everything’s I was always looking to play a character that we wanted to make it. I think independent known, so what’s the point? was caught between two forces, a character films now are connected to the more humanistic How have you changed as a director from your who was trying to be a person, be an individual, side of reality. They’re about the struggle to debut film, ? but who was caught with powers that were survive. Big commercial films aren’t dealing Technically, you just get better each time. beyond his control. That was Three Days Of with those issues. Also, there are such violent changes occurring The Condor; that was All The President’s Men. about 10 years ago, you were considering a sequel with digital; it’s reshaping our industry in That’s something that has always interested to The Candidate. Has that idea been canned? drastic ways. Many of them are good, some me very much. tf At one point I was interested because I thought of them are not so good. I haven’t decided yet maybe we could tell a story about this guy 30 whether I think digital is better than film. But The Company You Keep opens in 2014. Captain years later and what’s happened to him. But I know that the film I made with J.C. Chandor America: The Winter Soldier opens on 2 april 2014.

1981 1985 1993 2007- Wins Best Director Joins Meryl Gives Demi Directs Lions For for Ordinary People; Streep for mo(o)re than Lambs, and The the first Sundance romantic she bargained Company You festival takes place awards magnet, for in Indecent Keep; Sundance in Salt Lake City. Out Of Africa. Proposal. hits London.

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