Tuesday Volume 514 20 July 2010 No. 35
HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)
Tuesday 20 July 2010
£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 153 20 JULY 2010 154
Nick Herbert: I am sure that my right hon. Friend’s House of Commons comments will have been noted. As he knows, the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, Tuesday 20 July 2010 my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), visited Rothbury yesterday and met local police and residents to discuss those issues. The House met at half-past Two o’clock However, my right hon. Friend will understand that the Government cannot comment further, given that two people have been charged with conspiracy to murder PRAYERS and that there is an IPCC investigation.
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the importance of multi-agency risk assessment conferences in communicating between prisons, the police and others on any ongoing Oral Answers to Questions threats posed by specific perpetrators of domestic violence, and therefore in stopping that ongoing violent criminality in particular cases? Given that domestic violence accounts for 14% of all violent incidents, that almost 80% of JUSTICE victims are women, and that increasing focus on taking that crime seriously led to a 64% fall in its prevalence between 1995 and 2008, will he guarantee that MARACs The Secretary of State was asked— will continue and even that they will be placed on to a statutory footing? Prisoner Release (Risk Assessment) Nick Herbert: I am afraid that I cannot offer guarantees 1. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): to the hon. Lady, but we can say in relation to that What steps the Prison Service takes to communicate to specific case that it is very important that all the lessons police forces its assessment of the mental state of and are learned about appropriate information sharing. The threats posed to the public by prisoners immediately Government understand the significance of the domestic prior to release. [9411] violence issues that she raises. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): Police forces are notified of all prisoner releases. Procedures Administrative Penalties are in place in each prison under the national security policies to ensure that security information about offenders is analysed and shared with the police and other agencies 2. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): if it is considered that it will help the police to protect What plans the Government have to review the use of the public from serious harm. administrative penalties. [9412]
Chi Onwurah: I referred to the mental health care and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice status of prisoners. The recent tragic events in Newcastle, (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Government are undertaking on Tyneside and in Rothbury have highlighted how a full assessment of sentencing policy to ensure that it is important the provision of good mental health care in effective in deterring crime, protecting the public, punishing prisons is. Will responsibility for that provision be given offenders and reducing reoffending. We are considering to local GPs in the reorganisation of the national health our approach to out-of-court penalties as part of this service, or will it be under the control of the prison? work. Nick Herbert: First, I agree with the hon. Lady that it is important that we ensure adequate mental health care Mr Raab: I thank the Minister for that answer. By for prisoners, a very large number of whom suffer from 2007, fewer than half the offenders brought to justice—on mental health conditions. She will appreciate that I the previous Government’s measure—had ever seen or cannot comment specifically on the case to which she been passed through the dock of a court. A man who referred, which is the subject of an Independent Police glassed a pub landlady recently was cautioned, and a Complaints Commission investigation and a police serial thief was issued with a dozen on-the-spot fines. investigation. We are now considering carefully how the What plans does he have to reverse Labour’s pay-as-you-go Government’s health reforms should fit in with how we crime policy, and does he agree that magistrates courts want to provide health services in prisons. have a vital role to play?
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I thank Mr Djanogly: The number of out-of-court disposals the Minister for being careful not to speculate about administered each year has risen by 135% since 2003. matters that are the subject of inquiries and possible Such disposals now account for 40% of all offences criminal proceedings. Is he aware that the people of brought to justice. However, during the same period, Rothbury were extremely supportive of the police in the the number of convictions at court has remained broadly difficult task that they carried out, and that the police stable, suggesting that out-of-court penalties are expanding were very appreciative of that support at a time when the number of offenders who are dealt with rather than the whole community felt seriously threatened? being used as an alternative to prosecution. 155 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 156
Community Service Sentences Human Rights Act 1998
4. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): 3. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of What plans he has for the future of community service the Human Rights Act 1998. [9414] sentences. [9413] The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke): In the coalition agreement, the (Mr Crispin Blunt): Our plans are to ensure that community Government committed to establishing a commission sentences are tough, effective and rigorously enforced, to investigate the creation of a Bill of Rights. The scope and that they punish offenders, but steer them off drugs of the commission and its terms of reference will be and alcohol and into employment. We are conducting a announced in due course, but it is my expectation that full assessment of sentencing policy, including asking in the course of its work the commission will consider judges and magistrates for their views on which community the experience of the Human Rights Act 1998. sentences are the most effective. Mr Bain: I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for that response. Does he agree that, on the 10th anniversary Angie Bray: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. of the implementation of the Act, domestically enforceable Many of my constituents hold to the old-fashioned and universally applicable human rights are one of the notion that justice should not just be done, but be seen best checks on Executive power that we have, and does to be done, and they do not have much faith that he agree with the remarks that he made in The Daily community service sentences will deliver on that. How Telegraph on 27 June 2006 that to repeal the Human can he reassure my constituents that community service Rights Act would be an act of “xenophobic and legal sentences will be robust and not a soft option? nonsense”?
Mr Blunt: We believe that making community sentences Mr Clarke: We are going to review in due course tougher in delivering punishment—especially looking every aspect of the working of the Human Rights Act at the operation of community payback—and more in the light of that 10 years of experience. I agree that effective in delivering rehabilitation, restoration and the there are very important protections for human rights, protection of the public, will help to show that people and there is no question of moving away from the can have increasing confidence in such sentences. Achieving European convention on human rights. The coalition those objectives will be an important element of our agreement does not contemplate that. Actually, the assessment of sentencing policy. changes that have taken place in British common law, with the huge enlargement of the scope of judicial review—which includes reviews of all ministerial decisions Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): If the Minister is to and of legislation current in the House—have also increase the number of community sentences as the greatly altered the scene. Sometimes that gets confused Justice Secretary wishes to do, can he give the House an with the European convention on human rights. I have indication of how much money he intends to transfer to given a range of views in the past and no doubt we will the probation budget, given that it has an in-year cut consider those views carefully in the light of the report this year of £20 million? Can he also tell us which that we eventually get from the commission. sentences of under six-months he thinks are inappropriate, given that at present they are available for offences such Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Is the Lord as assault on a police officer, domestic violence, child Chancellor aware of the book by Jesse Norman and abuse and firearms offences? Indeed, three quarters of Peter Oborne entitled “Churchill’s Legacy: The Conservative people sentenced to under six months have committed Case for the Human Rights Act”? Will he encourage his seven or more offences. right hon. and hon. Friends to read it and thereby dispel the many myths about the Act? The Human Rights Act Mr Blunt: On the latter point, the right hon. Gentleman exists for all of us: what is not to like? will have to wait until the sentencing review when we will bring forward our detailed proposals, which—I am Mr Clarke: The European convention on human sure—will hang together in a properly co-ordinated rights was produced after the second world war, largely manner. He must also appreciate that the economic at the instigation of Churchill and others, to ensure that inheritance that this Government received—[Interruption.] the whole continent developed in line with those values There is no point hon. Members groaning. It is a fact of for which the British had fought the war. The principal life that an increase in budgets in the environment that architect and draftsman of the convention was a man we inherited is simply not going to happen. called Maxwell Fyfe. I recall that history because it is relevant to this issue, and we have to improve public understanding of the application of human rights in Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): British law as well as reviewing the operation of the Act. With regards to the sentencing review, would the Minister consider the use of more judicial discretion—unfortunately Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): The right hon. removed by the previous Government—thereby trusting and learned Gentleman said that he had had a range of our judiciary? views on whether the Human Rights Act should be repealed, but he has actually had one view, which he has Mr Blunt: My hon. Friend has alighted on a principle repeated over and over again—he even described the that the Justice Secretary has already enunciated. Prime Minister’s proposal as “anti-foreigner”. Given 157 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 158 that consistency, which I commend the right hon. and Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Will the learned Gentlemen on and welcome because it was Minister take into account, when making a decision on supporting a Labour policy, and given that, as he well the closure of the magistrates courts, the facilities and knows—because he is a very bright man—the issue is the wider social implications of individual court closures? not the European convention on human rights but the Barry magistrates court has separate entrances for witnesses Human Rights Act passed by this Parliament, will he and defendants, which is an important consideration in now rule out the abolition of the Act? a range of cases, particularly those of domestic violence. Will that sort of issue be a factor? Mr Clarke: I do not mind being quoted from my freelance days on the Back Benches. However, in their Mr Djanogly: We remain committed to supporting enthusiasm to find quotes, people find the odd word local justice being administered in magistrates courts, and attribute them to things. I never accuse any of my but my hon. Friend would be wrong to confuse community colleagues of being anti-foreigner. Part of the confusion justice, access to justice, efficient justice, speedy summary about the European convention tends to be that somehow justice or timely administration with bricks and mortar. it is not British, which I just addressed in pointing out that it was drafted by David Maxwell Fyfe and very Crown Dependencies much supported by the British Government and both main parties at the time. The Human Rights Act has now had 10 years, and it is time to review it. There is a 6. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) range of views and sometimes concern in this country (Lab/Co-op): What recent representations he has about exactly how it relates to Parliament and where received on his Department’s responsibilities in relation our constitution now is on these matters. In due course, to the Crown dependencies. [9418] we will set up a convention to advise us on that. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Magistrates Courts (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am unsure quite what kind of representations the hon. Gentleman has in mind. As he 5. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): How would expect, however, the Ministry of Justice constantly many representations he has received (a) in favour of receives a wide range of communications in relation to and (b) against his recent proposals to close a number its responsibilities for the Crown dependencies. of magistrates courts; and if he will make a statement. [9415] Tom Greatrex: The representations that I had in mind The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice were from Crown dependencies such as the Isle of Man. (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): We are four weeks into a Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure me 12-week public consultation process. As such, the responses that he and his ministerial colleagues in the other place, to each of the 16 consultation papers have not yet been who I gather have responsibility for Crown dependencies collated and analysed. This will happen once the in his Department, will consult with the Crown consultation closes on 15 September. However, I can dependencies if there is any suggestion that responsibility confirm that, as of 15 June, there had been 20 letters to for them be moved to another Department, so that the Ministers in this Department from hon. Members and important distinction between Crown dependencies and Welsh Assembly Members regarding the proposals. Two overseas territories is recognised throughout the civil Adjournment debates on the consultations have also service? been held. Mr Clarke: As the hon. Gentleman says, it is my right Mr Llwyd: I am grateful for that detailed response. I hon. Friend Lord McNally who takes a lead in our have the great pleasure and honour to represent the Department on the Crown dependencies. I will certainly good people of Dwyfor Meirionnydd, which is 100 miles take note of what the hon. Gentleman says about any from north to south and 90 miles from east to west. It question of changing ministerial responsibility, but I currently has two magistrates courts. Under the should point out that this is a matter for my right hon. Government’s plans, however, that will be down to one, Friend the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Secretary. making a complete and utter mockery of any idea of However, I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s views local justice. May I ask the Minister to think again and and will ensure that they are disseminated among those consider carefully—and I mean carefully—all the responsible. consultations and replies he gets? In the meantime, will he ask his right hon. and learned colleague, the Secretary Complaint Systems (Victims of Crime) of State for Justice, to extend the consultation period, because in my 20 years in this place I have never known a serious consultation to take place during August? 7. Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): What steps he is taking to ensure the Mr Djanogly: The hon. Gentleman says we should effectiveness of complaints systems for victims of crime think again, but we are thinking—we are in a consultation and others within the criminal justice system. [9419] process, to which he is entitled and welcome to make comments. There is one court in his constituency on The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): whose closure we are consulting. It is envisaged that Policies are in place in individual criminal justice agencies work from this court will be transferred to Caernarfon to respond to complaints from victims and others. magistrates court, which is approximately 20 miles away. Improving the ability of victims to hold services to The court in question has a very low utilisation rate, at account and gain redress when things go wrong will be just 28.9%. It sits two days per week in one courtroom considered as part of a full review of victim and witness and its facilities are generally considered to be inadequate. policy and services. 159 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 160
Alun Michael: I am grateful to the Minister for that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice reply. If somebody has a complaint that their situation (Mr Crispin Blunt): The original objective of the National is being dealt with badly by the system, it is often Offender Management Service was more effectively to difficult to know whether that is the fault of the police—in deliver prison and probation services in a co-ordinated which case there is the Independent Police Complaints way. The current structure has not worked as well as Commission, which is an effective system—or the Crown predicted and will not best serve the objectives of coalition Prosecution Service, which does not have an adequate policy towards the rehabilitation of offenders and the complaints system, and that means that people fall involvement of social investors, and the private and through the gaps. Will the Government take that into voluntary sectors in this work. Therefore, the structure account as part of the review? of the National Offender Management Service is being considered not only as part of the Department’s overall Nick Herbert: We will. I appreciate the right hon. contribution to the spending review, but to ensure the Gentleman’s long-standing interest in such issues and effective delivery of prison and probation services in the some of the proposals that he has made in relation to light of this autumn’s Green Paper on the new approaches them. We aim to improve the accountability of service to rehabilitation and the review of sentencing policy. providers and redress for complainants through the That work will also reflect the three strands of the big criminal justice system. It is important that we should society agenda, which my right hon. Friend the Prime address the fact that there can be confusion on the part Minister announced yesterday: social action, public of victims about whom they should complain to. service and community empowerment.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Last Anna Soubry: I am grateful to the Minister for that week an Enfield magistrate complained to me about the answer. Can he assist by saying what opportunities will waste of court time. That magistrate spends one day a exist for probation trusts when we consider our rehabilitation week dealing with prosecutions for dropping cigarette reforms? butts. If such cases are to be prosecuted, surely it would be in the best interests of the taxpayer and justice for Mr Blunt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her them to be heard in a town hall, rather than in a question. Today’s probation trusts possess the nation’s courthouse? professional expertise on offender management. We want to release all our capacity—public, private and Nick Herbert: It is important for us to look at the voluntary—to effect a revolution in how we provide for opportunities for the administration of justice that lie rehabilitation of offenders. No organisations are better outside buildings. There has been the development of placed to deliver that than today’s probation trusts. I what became known as the “summary justice agenda”, hope that they seize this chance, which is why I have which is actually administrative justice, with things such asked the Probation Association and the Probation as penalty notices for disorder. However, I would be Chiefs Association to work urgently with my officials to happy to talk to my hon. Friend about whether the case help shape our Green Paper proposals. I am confident that he has raised has been dealt with in an appropriate about what probation trusts will be able to achieve. manner. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I recommend the Minister deal with the point that I Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): The Minister of believe the hon. Lady was raising. In Nottinghamshire, State will recall that at Justice questions on 15 June, he there is certainly a strong case for a probation trust, but said in answer to me: irrespective of whether we have a particular type of “We are aware of the important work that the National Victims’ structure on offender management, do not the cuts to Service is planning to do.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2010; the prison budget—and, indeed, as we have heard today, Vol. 511, c. 733.] the cuts to the probation service—show that the big Given that, I am surprised that there is no reference society to which he referred is actually a euphemism for whatever to the National Victims’ Service in the just- allowing prisoners to roam free within the community published draft structural plan for his Ministry. I wonder at large? whether he could explain the omission of any reference to that service. Mr Blunt: No, it is not. The hon. Gentleman and all his right hon. and hon. Friends are going to have to get Nick Herbert: I do not think that the right hon. used to the fact that we are going to do things rather Gentleman should read anything into that omission. I differently. We are going to pay for outputs, not direct said then—and I say now—that we are reviewing in full inputs or have targets or over-control our public services the arrangements to ensure that victims are treated by instructing them precisely how to achieve their objectives. properly by the criminal justice system. Perhaps he will One way in which we are going to increase our capacity have already seen the strong speech that is to be made for offender management is, I hope, to enable probation by the victims commissioner on such issues this evening. trusts to be able to affect the involvement of the whole We take those issues immensely seriously, as we do community—including the private, the voluntary and ensuring that justice is done for victims. charitable sectors—to increase our nation’s capacity to deal with offenders and to rehabilitate them effectively. National Offender Management Service Defendant Anonymity (Rape Cases)
8. Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): What plans he has 9. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): If he for the future of the National Offender Management will conduct a public consultation on whether to grant Service. [9420] anonymity to defendants in rape cases. [9421] 161 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 162
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt): As I told the House in the full-day (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am not aware of any specific debate of 8 July, the Government are minded to strengthen recent representations made on this topic. The Government anonymity before charge. We want to hear the views of want to ensure that young people do not enter the those who may have any new evidence to assist our criminal justice system unless it is necessary. Our policies deliberations, and we will bring our conclusions to will be considered in the context of our comprehensive Parliament in the autumn. However, since the principal assessment of sentencing and rehabilitation. points of judgment around the issue are clear and very narrow—not least in the light of our excellent debate Mr Allen: Is the Secretary of State aware that the best 12 days ago—the Government do not propose to manage way of keeping young people out of a life of crime is to a full, formal public consultation. intervene early in their lives, so that they have the social and emotional capability to resist criminality? Will he Meg Munn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his commend the current project in Peterborough, where answer. Has he considered the fact that, under his an early intervention bond has been created by Social current proposals for anonymity up until charge, somebody Finance Ltd and St Giles Trust to ensure that offenders arrested on suspicion of rape but then charged with do not reoffend and that they leave the criminal justice sexual assault would enjoy anonymity, whereas somebody system at the earliest possible moment? Is he willing to arrested on suspicion of sexual assault but then charged extend that experiment, which was introduced by the with rape would not enjoy anonymity under the coalition’s last Government, and to consider its possible extension proposals? throughout the criminal justice system?
Mr Blunt: We are now dealing with quite a narrow Mr Clarke: I repeat the support that I have given point because it was agreed in 2003—[Interruption.] It before to the hon. Gentleman’s campaign for early is quite a narrow point; it was agreed on both sides of intervention. I entirely agree with what he says. the House when the Sexual Offences Act 2003 went We are certainly very interested in the project that is through Parliament that all people charged with offences about to get under way in Peterborough. It will have to ought to have their identity protected until the point of be evaluated in due course, but my ministerial team will charge. That is the guidance that the Press Complaints be following closely this system of raising capital finance Commission put into effect in 2004. There is an issue by means of a social bond, and then targeting the need around the strength of that guidance and, as I said in to reduce the rate of reoffending in a particular group. the debate 12 days ago, we are not satisfied that it is Reducing reoffending will be a key part of our policy, strong enough. We want in the first instance to try to and this is an important way of trying out one method find a non-statutory solution, and given that we had of tackling it. I hope that it succeeds. 21 Criminal Justice Acts passed over the 13 years of the last Administration, I am sure that Labour Members Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Does will understand why we are loth to find even more my right hon. and learned Friend agree that some of statutes to put on the statute book. those young offenders are in the criminal justice system owing to their lack of a strong, solid education? What Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): Does plans has he to try to ensure that something is done the hon. Gentleman not understand that the point about that? raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) is one reason why this idea—it was Mr Clarke: The present Government have an extremely tried before between 1976 and 1988—was abolished by important programme of education reform. Anything a previous Conservative Government? It did not work. that can be done to raise standards of education and Given that this idea was in neither the hon. Gentleman’s training in this country will, I believe, have an indirect manifesto nor that of the Liberal Democrats, what impact on the number of people who drop out of possible reason can he have for failing to provide a society in some way and are tempted to start offending. proper consultation before changing the law in the ridiculous way he proposes to do? I agree that we need to look across the broad range of social policy, considering relationships between crime and housing problems, employment problems and education Mr Blunt: First, when it was ended in 1988, it was not and training problems, if we are to achieve the improvement because it did not work. The hon. Lady should have in our social fabric which, eventually, will continue to paid rather more attention to the points put forward by reduce criminality. Meanwhile, some young people are the noble Lord Ackner in the 2003 debates when he serious offenders. We do need a secure estate, and we do spoke to his amendments on this subject. She should need to prosecute those from whom the public must be also note that the nature of rape changed, by definition, protected. I think that we would all welcome any measure in the Sexual Offences Act 2003. All that means that the that will successfully reduce the number of young people situation has changed since 1988. who are needlessly criminalised when they could be diverted into a more sensible way of handling their Young Offenders problems.
10. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Is the Justice Secretary What recent representations he has received on his aware that the rate of reoffending and entry into the Department’s policies to reduce the rate at which young youth justice system by young people fell by 10% during people enter the criminal justice system; and if he will the last years of the Labour Government? That fall was make a statement. [9422] due not least to the fact that we invested heavily in the 163 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 164 three-year youth crime action plan, the third year of Mr Blunt: The hon. Lady identifies the challenge we which ends this year, 2010-11. It involves issues such as face. We as a nation have to increase our capacity to prevention, and includes the Peterborough project that deliver education and all the other services that are the Justice Secretary has just endorsed. Will he give an required to assist in rehabilitating offenders. That is why indication of what plans he has to continue the youth we are going to effect a rehabilitation revolution which crime action plan after this year? will involve that great army of people out there who want to help us and who have so far found our current Mr Clarke: I agree that there has been a reduction in structures very difficult to engage with. Moving to the number of people entering the criminal justice output-based measures will enable us to use the capacity system. Notwithstanding my usual caveats about all of all those people who want to help us in the incredibly crime statistics, which can be used by Members on important work of rehabilitating offenders much more either side of the House to prove practically anything effectively than we have done to date. over whatever period they choose, I think that one thing on which we agree is the need to divert from needless Foreign National Prisoners criminality young people who can properly, in the public interest, be dealt with in some other way. 12. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What The youth crime action plan, and a number of other recent discussions he has had with (a) the UK Border interesting experiments involving diversion out of the Agency and (b) foreign Governments on the court system in which the last Government were engaged, compulsory transfer of foreign national prisoners to will certainly be investigated and followed up by the detention in their country of origin. [9424] new Government. We are not remotely partisan about the issue. We wish to look further for more outside experience of how best to tackle reoffending and the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): underlying problems of youth delinquency, in order to Ministry of Justice officials have been in regular contact take more young people out of court and out of criminality. with their colleagues at UKBA to identify suitable prisoners for transfer under the additional protocol to the Council of Europe convention on the transfer of Reoffending Rates sentenced persons. A number of cases are currently being pursued. Discussions between officials of member 11. Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) states of the European Union on the implementation of (Con): What the reoffending rate was for prisoners who the EU prisoner transfer agreement took place in April. had served custodial sentences of over 10 years in the latest period for which figures are available. [9423] Mr Hollobone: We currently have the pleasure and privilege of paying for the board and lodging of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice 752 Nigerians in British jails at a time when we are (Mr Crispin Blunt): Of the 125 adult offenders released giving that country £132 million a year in development from a custodial sentence of over 10 years in the first aid. Her Majesty’s Government have been negotiating quarter of 2008, 6.4% committed at least one further with the Nigerian Government on the compulsory transfer offence in the one-year follow-up period. In contrast, of those prisoners since 2007. Could we urge them to among those serving custodial sentences of 12 months get a move on? or less in 2008, the reconviction rate was 61.1%. Nick Herbert: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern Mrs Grant: What are the Minister’s views on short about this and note the ten-minute Bill he recently sentences for women? Does he agree that community introduced. The Government believe that wherever possible sentences may be more effective in reducing the rate of foreign national prisoners should serve their sentences reoffending by women? in their own country. Negotiations on a compulsory prisoner transfer agreement with Nigeria will be concluded Mr Blunt: Short sentences for men have proved pretty as soon as changes to Nigerian domestic legislation ineffective, and I think that short sentences for women have been made. are even more ineffective and deleterious. We support the conclusions of the Corston report, we are conducting Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): In evidence to the an analysis of the effectiveness of different sentences as Home Affairs Committee this morning, Lin Homer, the part of the current sentencing review, we are committed head of UKBA, told us that 14% of the prison population to reducing the number of women in prison, and a were foreign nationals and that 700 officials were working network of women-only community provision is being in her department on this issue. As it is a priority for the developed to support robust community sentences. Government, is the Minister confident that he has Perhaps at this point I should throw a bouquet to my sufficient staff dealing with what is a very important predecessor, the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood issue? (Maria Eagle), in recognition of her work in this regard. We propose to build on it. Nick Herbert: The Government are determined to improve performance in the removal of foreign nationals Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): and in prison transfer agreements. The right hon. Does the Minister agree that there is a serious risk of Gentleman will know that only 41 prisoners were transferred reoffending rates increasing in the next five to 10 years this year, but compulsory transfer has only been available if the prison budget cuts result in less education and since November 2009, so we expect performance to rehabilitation of prisoners? improve. 165 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 166
Universal Jurisdiction Offences (Prosecution) them. However, in recent years, we have not paid enough attention to how, at the same time, we minimise the risk 13. Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Whether he of reoffending, seek to reform those in prisons and plans to bring forward proposals to change the law so divert them away from future crime, and eventually that only the Crown Prosecution Service will be able to ensure that there are better and more effective ways of initiate prosecutions for universal jurisdiction offences. dealing with those who are capable of being dealt with. [9425] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Will my right hon. and learned Friend carefully examine (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government consider it the early release scheme pursued by the previous unsatisfactory that an arrest warrant for such offences Government, which led to a very high proportion of can be issued on the application of a private prosecutor those released early going on to reoffend, to great harm on the basis of evidence that would be insufficient to to the British public? sustain a prosecution. We are urgently considering how to proceed and expect to make an announcement shortly. Mr Clarke: That was not a policy; that was a catastrophe. The previous Government went through a phase of Mr Offord: Does my right hon. and learned Friend allowing their rhetoric and some of their policy intentions agree that Britain is unable to play a leading role in the to outrun any serious common sense and then found diplomatic world if foreign politicians cannot visit this that they had to let people out early, before they had country without fear of arrest? finished their sentence, because they could not physically get them into prisons. Whatever else comes out of a Mr Clarke: Of course we must enforce properly in sentencing review, I trust that we will avoid any nonsense respect of war crimes and other matters of universal of that kind in our period of office. jurisdiction where proper cases arise, but I agree with my hon. Friend that it is not in any sense in this Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): Evidence suggests country’s interests that people can be arrested upon that 75 to 90% of rapes go unreported, and I hope that arrival on a level of evidence that would not remotely the whole House will try to deal with that situation to sustain a prosecution, which is why we intend to address improve it. Is the Justice Secretary at all worried that his this matter and to make an announcement in the very plans to provide anonymity for defendants in rape trials near future. will contribute to fewer rapists going to prison? Prisoner Numbers Mr Clarke: I do not think that there is anybody in this House—and there has not been for as long as I can 14. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What steps remember—who is not in favour of anonymity for he plans to take to reduce the number of people in people who make complaints of rape and who does not prison. [9426] think it extremely important to encourage women to come forward on all proper occasions to press complaints The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice about the serious criminal offence of rape. The issues (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Over the coming months we will surrounding anonymity for the person accused are quite look in detail at the sentencing frameworks for adult different from that, and the Under-Secretary of State and young offenders, as well as at the range of penalties for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate available in the criminal justice system. That means (Mr Blunt), has just addressed those questions. This is a introducing more effective policies, as well as overhauling matter of how far we can protect those people, and the system of rehabilitation to reduce reoffending. We others accused of criminal offences, up to the time of will take the time necessary to get it right and will charge. That approach has been agreed by those on consult widely before bringing forward full plans for both sides of this House in the not-too-distant past—in reform. the previous Parliament—and it probably will eventually be agreed in this Parliament too. Kevin Brennan: Will the Secretary of State give the House three examples of the kind of criminals currently Short Prison Sentences in jail who will not be in prison under his plans? 15. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): What mechanism he Mr Clarke: I will not anticipate the sentencing review. plans to introduce to reduce the use of short prison [Interruption.] No, I will not. The last person I met in sentences; and if he will make a statement. [9427] jail who clearly should not have been there had been sent to prison because he was in dispute with his ex-wife The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice over the maintenance he was supposed to pay for their (Mr Kenneth Clarke): We are conducting a full assessment children. Of course he was under an obligation to pay of sentencing policy to ensure that it is effective in for his children, but providing a place for him in jail was deterring crime, protecting the public, punishing offenders not the best use of prison. Anybody who visits a prison and cutting reoffending. Short custodial sentences will will find people who are there for rather surprising be considered as part of that assessment, and we will be combinations of reasons, some of which are far away asking judges and magistrates for their views on these from those relating to serious crimes. sentences and on community sentences. Prison is the most effective punishment we have for serious criminal offenders. There is a continuing case, Ian Swales: I thank the Secretary of State for that and there always will be one, for protecting the public answer. In the case of non-violent young offenders, will against the activity of serious offenders by imprisoning he support restorative justice programmes, such as 167 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 168 neighbourhood justice panels, which are much more approximately 23 miles away. Travel times and distances successful in reducing crime than traditional forms of will be constant from various locations within the punishment? constituency, so population is only one aspect to consider. We must also consider the frequency of court attendance, Mr Clarke: We are very interested in taking further which is very low in Wisbech, with a utilisation of the idea of restorative justice. Some very interesting only 37%. experiments in youth restorative justice are under way Topical Questions and they will be carefully evaluated. In all these matters, evaluation is extremely important. People come forward T1. [9435] Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): with extremely enlightened and attractive views on how If he will make a statement on his departmental reoffending might be reduced or on how youth offenders responsibilities. might be diverted from the prison system, some of The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice which work and some of which, alas, do not. One has to (Mr Kenneth Clarke): My departmental responsibilities take a realistic look at them and evaluate them after a remain unchanged, but may I take this opportunity to sufficient experiment to decide what works. On rehabilitation point out to the House and to the hon. Gentleman that generally, that is one of the main reasons why we will I have today made a written statement setting out plans concentrate on paying by results, wherever possible. for the implementation of the Bribery Act 2010? This Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Does the important piece of legislation from Parliament reflects Secretary of State accept, though, that short sentences cross-party support for anti-bribery measures and its might have a role to play in cases where a probation effective implementation is a priority for me in my role order or a community sentence has failed? as the coalition’s international anti-corruption champion— [Interruption.] I used to shadow Lord Mandelson—he Mr Clarke: I am not sure where the idea that I am had more titles than I have. The new framework of against all short sentences has come from. A short offences will replace the old and fragmented mix of sentence is usually taken to mean any sentence of less statutory and common law offences and they should than 12 months. My own view, pending this review, has facilitate a more effective criminal justice response to always been that there is indeed a case for some short bribery. An important part of the implementation is a sentences where there is no realistic alternative and one public consultation on the guidance to be produced is dealing with a recidivist offender. Wherever possible, under section 9 of the Act. We want the formulation of of course, the pointless short term of imprisonment this guidance to be informed by the expertise of the should be avoided where a really effective and convincing business community, specialist anti-bribery organisations community penalty is available in its place. and others with informed opinions. I expect this process to allow us to publish guidance early in the new year, in Wisbech Magistrates Court time for the commencement of the Act in spring 2011. 16. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) Mr Allen: May I welcome the Secretary of State’s (Con): What account he took of the availability of recent remarks about tackling the causes of crime as public transport in rural areas around Wisbech in his well as crime itself? Will he bear in mind the words of decision to propose the closure of Wisbech magistrates John Carnochan, the hard-bitten head of homicide in court. [9428] Glasgow who, having dealt with offenders who had committed serious and violent crimes who were the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice sons and grandsons of offenders, said that given the (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): In selecting courts on which to choice between 100 extra police officers and 100 health consult, one of the key principles applied was to try and visitors, he would choose the health visitors given his ensure that people should not have to make excessively intergenerational experience? Will the Secretary of State long or difficult journeys to attend court. Although it is will the means as well as the ends in tackling the causes important, proximity to a court should not be the only of crime? consideration—we need also to consider the speed with which cases are dealt with and the quality of the facilities Mr Clarke: I am afraid that the Government have at our courts. We also want to explore ways we can inherited a situation, for which I blame the previous harness technology more effectively so people do not Government, in which we must tackle these solutions necessarily physically have to attend court when accessing against a background of not simply being able to wheel court services. in more resources. The first step is to make cuts in wasteful expenditure now. I accept quite a large part of Stephen Barclay: I thank the Minister for that reply the hon. Gentleman’s analysis and we should also consider and for the constructive way in which he is consulting. how we look across all Government Departments and As he says, proximity is not the only factor but what is all sectors—we must take into account health, housing, relevant is how many people are affected by a journey of employment, education and training at the same time as more than 60 minutes. Will he clarify which year he is we consider policing, justice and imprisonment—because using to assess the population given that Fenland has the whole picture contributes to the broken society and seen a significant increase in its numbers in recent tackling it will help to contribute to a less criminal society. years? Will he allow for the housing trend where planning permission has already been given? T2. [9436] Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): In the light of the Legal Services Commission’s recent Mr Djanogly: We are consulting on one court in my misallocation of duty solicitor scheme membership hon. Friend’s constituency, Wisbech. As my hon. Friend and duty rotas for criminal legal aid work, will my right noted, it is envisaged that work from that court will be hon. and learned Friend undertake an urgent review of transferred to Peterborough magistrates court, which is the LSC’s continuing inefficiencies? 169 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 170
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My hon. Friend has just made (Mr Crispin Blunt): There are already a number of serious accusations of mismanagement, and I shall schemes to encourage foreign national prisoners to go certainly consider the issues that he has raised and get home and serve their sentences there. As I said in the back to him shortly. last Justice questions, we will have to work very hard in this respect. I have noted the comment of the Chairman T4. [9438] John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): of the Home Affairs Select Committee about the fact The Secretary of State should be aware that the Justice that some 700 people in the UKBA are working on it, Minister north of the border has said that any which gives some idea of the priority that it has. I assure questions regarding al-Megrahi resided with the my hon. Friend and all hon. and right hon. Members United Kingdom Government. If that is true, will the that that level of priority will continue. We need to save Secretary of State make a statement? If it is not true, the money that we should not be spending on imprisoning can he put the record straight? foreigners in our jails.
Mr Kenneth Clarke: My understanding is that this Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Following was a decision solely for the Scottish Government and the revelations at the weekend that some quite shocking that it was taken on humanitarian grounds. Plainly, it restraint methods are authorised in the “Physical Control predates my period of office, and that just about sums in Care” manual for use by staff in secure training up my full knowledge of the situation, so I am not in a centres for children, will the Secretary of State introduce position to make a statement. an explicit ban on corporal punishment in secure training centres and other youth offender institutions? Will he T3. [9437] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Following today’s newspaper reports, will the Secretary of State establish a public inquiry, chaired by a member of the ensure that we will never again release a mass murderer judiciary, to establish the compatibility of practices in who was convicted by British courts, letting them out secure training centres with article 3 of the European of prison on dubious health grounds and where there convention on human rights? are murky commercial interests and sending them away Mr Kenneth Clarke: Of course, we keep under review to be lauded by a dictatorship? the very careful guidance about the use of restraint Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend takes a particular view of techniques in those circumstances, and it is a matter of the facts. From the Dispatch Box, I must take the view regret that such guidance has to be issued. However, the that the decision was taken by the Scottish Government hon. Lady should bear it in mind that we are talking on the declared basis of humanitarian grounds. No about children and young people, some of whom are Minister of the Crown—certainly not me—is in a position much bigger than I am and who probably have a problem to add to that. with drug abuse and a history of violent crime. The completely unarmed staff have to be given some instructions Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Given the in how to control those young people when they are proposed review of legal aid, does the Justice Secretary getting out of control and it is not always easy or agree that the problems faced by the Refugee and possible to use totally restrained methods. Migrant Justice organisation because of the late payment of fees and the lack of clarity about the number of T7. [9441] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): All current cases affected—the Home Office has told me members of the European Union have signed the that it is 5,000 and the Legal Services Commission has Council of Europe convention on the transfer of admitted that it simply does not know—mean that it is sentenced persons, yet we still have 3,100 EU nationals vital for the Government to intervene until these problems in our jails. The Secretary of State and I share an are resolved to prevent that organisation from going enthusiasm for the European Union, so will he into administration and to avoid the possibility of further co-operate with the EU and repatriate those prisoners? chaos, with expense, within our asylum system? Mr Blunt: Unfortunately for my hon. Friend, I am Mr Djanogly: I am pleased that the hon. Lady has afraid that that agreement does not come into force brought up this important issue. The RMJ was maintaining until December 2011. I note that the Irish apparently that it had 10,000 clients, but the administrators who have an opt-out on it and that it will take five years for went into that organisation to put it into administration the Poles to make it fully applicable, but with those assessed the number of clients at more like between exceptions aside, I assure him that we will implement 4,000 and 5,000. What is important is the clients. We that agreement absolutely as soon as it comes into force. need to move on from the administration of that organisation to concentrating on its clients, and I assure Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Does the Secretary her that the Department and I are doing exactly that. of State agree with the retiring chief inspector of prisons Dame Anne Owers that a reason for the reduction in T5. [9439] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): young people coming into the criminal justice system is Having read the published figures that one in seven of the effect of Sure Start? If he does agree with her, will he our prisoners are non-UK nationals—according to speak to colleagues across the Government about investing recent statistics, 585 of them are from Vietnam—does in Sure Start, rather than in youth jails, because it is the Minister agree that we could save some of the cheaper and works better? money spent on UK prisons by transferring those prisoners, perhaps also paying or giving aid to their Mr Kenneth Clarke: We are, of course, having to Governments, perhaps up to 25%, to house them in address Sure Start, as with every other programme, in their jails? That would save money for the UK taxpayer the light of the resources—or rather lack of them—that and would put foreign prisoners where they belong. we have inherited as a result of the economic situation, 171 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 172 but the Government are concentrating Sure Start on its Mr Djanogly: The average daily costs in Crown courts original priority purpose, which was particularly to is more than double those of magistrates courts at target areas of deprivation and social difficulty. That about £1,700, compared with £800 a day, and Crown part of Sure Start’s work does indeed have some relevance court cases take much longer of course. That is why it is to what we have been talking about in our exchanges on imperative that we rebalance cases between magistrates youth justice and how to keep people out of criminality courts, operating at some 64% of capacity, and Crown in their youth. courts, operating at full capacity, to ensure that we get value for money. T8. [9442] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Will the Minister pay tribute to Winston Churchill, who, exactly 100 years Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Will the Secretary of ago today, as Home Secretary, commented: State’s Department honour in full, and on the same “The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment basis as the previous Government, the release of files of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of the relating to the Hillsborough disaster? civilisation of any country.”? Mr Kenneth Clarke: The National Archives and my Mr Blunt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Of course, Department will continue to co-operate with the ongoing it is a delight to offer a tribute to the greatest parliamentarian work to get the files released, which we hope to be able of the 20th century. Right hon. and hon. Members to facilitate. Our Department will play its part, together should note that today is precisely the 100th anniversary with the National Archives, for which we are responsible. of one of the great speeches on prison reform, given by Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): On Winston Churchill while he was in his Liberal phase. I the subject of magistrates courts, will Ministers consider am delighted that I will mark that anniversary by speaking seriously any proposal from magistrates that would to the National Association for the Care and Resettlement have them hearing cases in venues other than courts so of Offenders. I am sure, Mr Speaker, that you will allow that they can continue to deliver local justice locally? me to use the final phrase of that speech 100 years ago, when Churchill said: Mr Djanogly: The answer to that is yes, especially in “an unfaltering faith that there is a treasure, if you can only find the context of an increased use of technology. it, in the heart of every man—these are the symbols which in the treatment of crime and criminals mark and measure the stored-up Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living On Sunday evening, Radio 4’s “File on 4” programme virtue in it.”—[Official Report, 20 July 1910; Vol. 19, c. 1354.] made serious allegations about Isle of Man shipping Those are measures that we will live up to. companies’ involvement in sanction-busting shipments of arms to Sudan. Given that the Secretary of State has Mr Speaker: We are very grateful, but I think that it responsibility for the relationship between the Isle of sounded a bit better from Churchill. Man and the UK Government, will he hold urgent discussions with the Isle of Man Chief Minister to Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): And I should say that ascertain what, if any, truth there is to those allegations? the people of the Rhondda remember Churchill’s period in relation to the Tonypandy riots. However, the Lord Mr Kenneth Clarke: I will certainly follow up that Chancellor has responsibility for marriage law, and he matter as I did not hear the “File on 4” programme. will know that the law forbids civil weddings from Obviously, the Isle of Man has a good, functioning including religious readings or music, even though many system of justice and we can confidently expect it to people who are not able to get married in church or who enforce criminal law and international sanctions to the do not want to do so would like to have such readings. standards that we would expect. However, I will ensure The Government say that they will allow that for civil that we contact the Isle of Man to ensure that everything partnerships, but not for civil weddings. Can we not that can properly be done is being done to ensure that have a little more equality for heterosexuals? no breach of international sanctions that could be prevented is being allowed to go ahead. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): In the light of I am answering this question because I am the only one the Government’s review of non-departmental public in the village. [Laughter.] I apologise to the hon. Gentleman bodies, what plans does the Justice Secretary have for for the fact that his question was transferred. The the future of the Office of the Public Guardian? Equality Act 2010 removed the express prohibition on civil partnership registrations taking place on religious Mr Clarke: We are reviewing it, although we have no premises. In response to that amendment of the law, the immediate intentions that we are withholding. We are Government are committed to talking to those with a looking across the whole field of the Department, and key interest in how to take this forward. That will we will reduce the number of so-called arm’s length include consideration of whether civil partnerships should bodies, quangos and agencies. The Office of the Public be allowed to include religious readings, music and Guardian carries out quite an important function, however, symbols, and the implications for marriage will have to so I do not think that we will make any changes there be considered as part of that. unless we are quite confident that its key responsibilities can be properly discharged. T10. [9444] Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): Can the Minister tell the House whether his Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The annual report Department has undertaken any study of the on Parc prison by the independent monitoring board comparative costs of trials in magistrates courts and singled out the work of the Prince’s Trust and the Crown courts? excellent staff in the young persons unit for particular 173 Oral Answers20 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 174 praise, which I am sure that Front Benchers will join me times. We have succeeded a Government who simply in echoing. Every time that we ask for continued investment borrowed ever more money and who threw money at in such units—the report said that the unit needed more every problem, often with a considerable lack of success investment—we hear that there is no money, so if the for public protection. I endorse what the hon. Gentleman Secretary of State is going to use that excuse, how will says about the work of the Prince’s Trust and others the big society ensure that we have less reoffending throughout our prison service, but he will have to find a when these young people come out of jail? positive contribution to policy making, rather than saying just, “Let’s borrow and spend more public money,” because that is ruled out for the immediate future. Mr Clarke: We will produce positive policies on criminal justice, prison reform and the rehabilitation of offenders, Several hon. Members rose— but we have to do that on the basis of a realistic appraisal of the current state of the economy. We have Mr Speaker: Order. I am afraid that all good things inherited the worst financial and fiscal crisis of modern come to an end. 175 20 JULY 2010 Office of Tax Simplification 176
Office of Tax Simplification interim chairman, and John Whiting has agreed to be the interim tax director. Together they will lead the establishment of the OTS and the reviews that it conducts 3.33 pm in its first year. Over the summer, John Whiting will Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab) lead the appointment of the permanent secretariat, so (Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the first reviews can begin by early September. He if he will make a statement on the structure and approach will also establish committees over the summer to steer of the Office of Tax Simplification. the OTS’s work and ensure close consultation with all interested parties. The committees will include experts The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David from the tax and legal professions, the business community Gauke): I am grateful for the opportunity to update the and other interested parties. House on the establishment of the Office of Tax Making the right reforms to the tax system will help Simplification, further to the written ministerial statement to pave the way for bringing more international business that I laid before the House this morning. to the UK, which will give our economy the boost that The need for simplification in the UK tax system is it so urgently needs in the years ahead. We commend clear. The quality of our tax law is a major determinant the creation of this body. of our economic competitiveness. A complex tax system Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for creates uncertainty and instability, which sends the wrong his statement. He will hear this afternoon that there is signal to international businesses looking to invest in wide-ranging interest in the questions that he has raised, the UK and so damages our economic growth. A complex which is why it was all the more unacceptable that the tax system also means that businesses end up spending statement was delivered at a press conference before it more time dealing with their tax affairs and less time on was made to Members. That, I am afraid, is becoming a their core business. That can be particularly burdensome pattern of behaviour. First, £6 billion of spending cuts for smaller businesses. were announced in the Treasury courtyard rather than We set out our proposed approach for reforming the in the Palace of Westminster. Then the approach to the tax policy-making process in a discussion document spending review was announced in a press conference, that was published alongside the Budget last month, not in this Chamber. Then reforms to the institutional but as well as reforming the way in which we develop arrangements for bank regulation were briefed to new tax law, there is also significant work to be done to newspapers before the House was told. Then plans for a correct the mistakes of the past by reducing the complexity bank levy were outlined in a speech in the City, not from in the British tax system. That is where the Office of the Treasury Bench. If we wanted a timely reminder of Tax Simplification comes into play. the importance of the first debate to be held on business In his Budget statement of 22 June, my right hon. nominated by the Backbench Business Committee—on Friend the Chancellor confirmed our plans to establish information relating to statements—the hon. Gentleman the Office of Tax Simplification. Today, we have done has just given us one. so. The OTS will advise Treasury Ministers on delivering Let me turn to the substance of the hon. Gentleman’s a simpler tax system, drawing together expertise from announcement. From all parts of the House this afternoon throughout the tax and legal professions as well as from he will hear an endorsement of the principles of a business and other interested parties, to provide advice simpler tax system that allows people to focus on their on options for addressing existing complexity in the tax business affairs and profitability. He will see, too, an system. Its objective will be to reduce the burden of endorsement of the use of outside experts; that is compliance for both businesses and individuals. The nothing novel. But will he confirm the answers to a OTS will do that by advising the Government on where, couple of questions about the office’s scope? If he is all in its expert view, the tax system is too complex and for simplification, will the Office of Tax Simplification could be simplified, and by conducting inquiries into be advising him on his proposals to complicate the tax complex areas of the tax system, gathering evidence system by introducing a marriage tax allowance, all for and suggesting options for reform. the sake of sending an ineffective £3-a-week signal The office will publish a report on each of its inquiries, about his party’s views on what a family should look detailing the evidence that it has collected, the views of like? Will the office be advising the Chancellor either to interested parties, its analysis of potential reform options advance or to drop those plans, and if so, on what and proposals for simplifications. Either the Chancellor timetable? or I will discuss the findings of each report with members Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Office of of the OTS board. The first such inquiry will be a Tax Simplification will be advising him on dropping the review of all reliefs in the tax system. The OTS will measures announced in the Budget to increase the review the full list of reliefs and identify those that number of people facing marginal deduction rates of should be repealed or simplified to create a simpler tax more than 90%? And if he is all for simplicity, why is the system. The second review will focus on simplifying the Treasury briefing that it wants a more complicated tax system for small businesses and the specific question stamp duty system in connection with energy conservation of finding a simpler alternative to IR35. in housing? The OTS will be led by an externally appointed and Secondly, there are a series of questions to be asked unpaid chairman and tax director, who will be supported about the nature of the new beast that the hon. Gentleman in undertaking their duties by a secretariat of civil has told us about this afternoon. We have heard a lot of servants and private sector secondees. The chairman talk in recent weeks about the Chancellor’s push for a and the tax director will have complete control over bonfire of the quangos. Can the Minister tell us how forming the OTS’s judgments and be accountable to much the new office will cost? Can he promise us that Parliament for their advice. Michael Jack will be the this is the last quango that the Treasury will announce 177 Office of Tax Simplification20 JULY 2010 Office of Tax Simplification 178 this year? Can he tell the House how Mr Jack was not being paid for this. The cost of the secretariat will appointed, and whether his appointment is fully in line be paid out of existing Treasury and Her Majesty’s with Nolan principles? What reassurances can the hon. Revenue and Customs budgets. This is good value for Gentleman give the House this afternoon that, unlike money, it will be a good contribution to our tax system, the Office for Budget Responsibility, the Chancellor’s and we are very proud to announce it. last independent creation, this office will not release its reports to help the Prime Minister get through a sticky Several hon. Members rose— Prime Minister’s Question Time? Simplification is a good thing, and I am sure that the Mr Speaker: Order. The opening contributions of the whole House will welcome the thrust of the hon. Minister and the shadow Chief Secretary were a little Gentleman’s proposals. But I am afraid that today’s on the long side. Many people want to take part. What I announcement sounds rather more like an attempt to require is brevity—a textbook example of which can grab headlines than like real evidence of a push to now be provided by the Chairman of the Treasury improve legislation—legislation that is the responsibility Committee, Mr Andrew Tyrie. of this House. Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I am not so Mr Gauke: I do not know whether the right hon. sure about that, Mr Speaker. Gentleman requested an urgent question because he I warmly welcome anything that simplifies the tax had prepared a speech and had forgotten that this system; I think we all do. The Chancellor described the development was announced in the Budget on 22 June. new office as a The creation of this organisation was not only in the “a permanent force for a simpler tax system”, Conservative party manifesto and the coalition agreement; it was also announced to the House on 22 June by my but he has appointed it initially for only one Parliament. right hon. Friend the Chancellor. Today we have announced Can the Minister explain why? What is to be the annual the appointment of two distinguished individuals to budget of the office’s permanent staff, and will permanent perform the task that we have already set out. The appointments be subject to scrutiny by the Treasury misplaced outrage from the right hon. Gentleman is Committee? extraordinary, particularly given the record of the previous Government in this regard. Mr Gauke: On the appointment process, we will see how we go. We are keen that the OTS should be accountable I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman recognises, to Parliament, and I dare say that it will give evidence to at last, the need for a simpler tax system and for outside my hon. Friend’s Committee. As for the cost, as I said a experts to be involved in the tax system. We think that moment ago, the intention is that the costs will be borne an important point; we have to make use of the expertise from the existing budgets of HMRC and the Treasury. in the tax and legal professions, and the OTS is but one There will be secondees from the private sector, and we example of how we will do that, along with the creation expect them to fund that at their own cost. As regards of a business forum and a tax professional forum. All longevity, the initial appointments are for 12 months. that will add to the sense of co-operation that exists in We have set up the OTS for a Parliament, but I hope our tax system and the sense that the system can become that it will be a permanent feature of our tax system. an asset, not a liability—as, sadly, it had become under our predecessors. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): One of the The purpose of the OTS is to look at the stock of tax pieces of tax complexity that Treasury officials will be law—the thousands of pages of tax law in this country, counselling this body to get rid of swiftly is perhaps one which has the longest tax code in the world. It is an of the most important that has recently been introduced— attempt to examine the existing tax code to make the patent box, which enables intellectual property developed recommendations for simplification. All decisions will in this country to be domiciled in this country for tax be made by Ministers accountable to the House. Parliament purposes, not domiciled overseas at a great loss to the will continue to make tax law, but clearly the use British taxpayer. Will the Minister ensure that the new of independent experts and publication of their body is not bamboozled by Treasury officials who have recommendations and analyses will be a useful addition opposed that measure for far too long, and will continue to our tax system. to try to get rid of it? The right hon. Gentleman asked about the appointment process. These are interim appointments; we believed Mr Gauke: As I mentioned earlier, the intention of that it was important to establish the OTS quickly. The the OTS is to look at the existing stock of tax law, not to appointments will be there for 12 months, at which examine new proposals for tax law. On the patent box, point we will go through the usual process of appointment as we announced in the Budget, the intention is to carry for permanent appointees. In that 12-month period out a consultation on intellectual property and on how Mr Whiting and Mr Jack will add a great deal to our tax the patent box works, how research and development system, will establish the OTS—[Interruption.] In spite tax credits work, and how the controlled foreign company of that attack on the appointees, John Whiting, for rules apply in that context. We will be carrying out that example, has advised Opposition parties, including the consultation in the autumn. Labour party in the past few weeks. These are well- established individuals. Michael Jack was a distinguished Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): May Minister in this area, who established the tax law rewrite I welcome the announcements about the OTS, particularly project, and we think that that is useful experience. the appointment of John Whiting—a move that will be As for the cost, I know that the view of the Labour very popular in the industry? Does the Minister agree party in government is that quangos must always cost a that by simplifying the tax code, the Government are great deal of money—but Mr Jack and Mr Whiting are reducing the opportunities for tax avoidance? 179 Office of Tax Simplification20 JULY 2010 Office of Tax Simplification 180
Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Mr Gauke: I am grateful to whichever tax expert greater the complexity, the greater the opportunities for identified the Gauke doctrine: he is right about so many avoiding tax, and a simpler tax system closes down things, because this is a question of following things some of those opportunities. The relationship between through. We have set out some very good intentions and avoidance and complexity is itself complex, because made a great deal of progress in our first few weeks, in avoidance leads to more complexity. As a Government, demonstrating how the UK tax system can be an asset, we take tackling tax avoidance very seriously. but it is our responsibility as a Government to ensure that we follow through and build on what I believe have Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The old tax law been some early successes. rewrite project only managed, in more than a decade, to bring about the Capital Allowances Act 2001, four Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman income tax measures, the Corporation Tax Act 2009, referred to the new body as being accountable to the the Corporation Tax Act 2010 and the Taxation House. If he has considered that idea closely, can he tell (International and Other Provisions) Act 2010. As the us precisely how it will be achieved? Minister expects a report on each of this new body’s inquiries, with an analysis of its reform options and Mr Gauke: We certainly anticipate that the Treasury recommendations, all of which might take some time, Committee will want to take evidence from the tax may I ask him, if he does nothing else, to urge the new director and the chairman, and that documents and Office of Tax Simplification to work rather more swiftly recommendations produced by the OTS will be available than the old tax law rewrite project was able to? to Members. I dare say that those recommendations will inform our debates on Finance Bills and, if it is Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman rightly makes the possible, raise the quality of debate. point that tax law is a complicated matter, and such matters are not addressed easily and simply, but we Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): By how much believe that we have appointed the right individuals, did the tax code lengthen under the previous Government? and that there is engagement by the tax professions. We I understand that its length is now a record in the believe that the tax law rewrite project had many western world. commendable features, but it was very restricted. It focused merely on wording, and we want an independent Mr Gauke: I am afraid that I will not be able to give body to consider policy recommendations to see how my hon. Friend a precise number, but the code did we can improve our tax system. increase substantially in length. It is also worth noting that during the same period our tax competitiveness, as Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Does the Minister agree measured by the World Economic Forum, fell. that this is a very long overdue initiative, with two aspects that we would never have heard about from the Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Any reduction in the Opposition—a focus on simplicity, and the idea that burden on small businesses, or indeed any businesses, of things can be done without the benefit of an overpaid administration costs in paying tax is to be welcomed. quango? However, can the Minister say whether, as a result of simplification of the tax system, he expects to raise Mr Gauke: I think that we are going to achieve more tax or less? something very important, with good value for money for the taxpayer—and I think that will be a hallmark of Mr Gauke: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for this Government. welcoming these measures. The intention is that the OTS will be neither a tax-raising nor a tax-cutting body Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): To prove to the but a tax simplification body.It will make recommendations, House the independence of the Office for Budget and our approach, wherever possible, is to broaden the Responsibility, the Chancellor finally conceded that the base and lower the rate. If, for example, there are appointment of its chair would be subject to the agreement recommendations that reliefs should be withdrawn, we of the Treasury Committee. If the so-called independent anticipate that the money saved could be recycled into OTS is actually to be so, will the same arrangements be tax cuts elsewhere. The OTS should not be seen as considered for the appointment of its chair? anything other than revenue-neutral. Mr Gauke: We have not taken a view on that yet. We Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I thank the have to understand what the role of the OTS will be—to Exchequer Secretary for this initiative on behalf of publish recommendations that will be, by necessity, in businesses small and large in Watford and elsewhere—but the public domain. People can debate those matters, not on behalf of the tax accountants, who have not which we think is a valuable purpose in itself. Whether contacted me to say how happy they are. Does he agree the Treasury Committee needs to endorse every that measures such as this, when the public and small appointment made by the Government is a debate that businesses find things simpler, are very much to the we should have. advantage both of them, and of the Exchequer purse? Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Is the Minister Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I know aware that one tax expert has described the “Gauke some of the tax accountants of Watford, and I suspect doctrine” as one of the most important changes in that they too will welcome this measure. improving the competitiveness of our tax system—so long as it is delivered properly? Will he assure me that Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): For how long will we the Government will work to ensure that what has been have to watch this space to see an end to the quicksand put down on paper in the Budget will be delivered of complexity that is IR35? Will the experts appointed properly over this Parliament? to assist the OTS include people who understand the 181 Office of Tax Simplification20 JULY 2010 Office of Tax Simplification 182 difficulties caused for families and firms who work and Mr Gauke: I always got the impression from John live on a cross-border basis in Northern Ireland? Those Whiting that he had already read the code—and Michael people are caught in an utter matrix of tax complications. Jack may also know a little about it. I take my hon. Friend’s point, but in 12 months they will be able to Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman makes a valuable make a good start. point, and I hope that the OTS will bear it in mind. I am grateful to him for his comments. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Many hon. Members have made points about fairness. Will Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Does the Minister the Minister ensure that the OTS will not simply dance agree that a more simplified tax system will encourage to the tune of the wealthiest in society, and their UK manufacturers to retain jobs here rather than export accountants, in putting issues on the agenda? I refer to them to other countries? Does he also agree that the the decision in the Budget to reduce the backdating of measure will make the UK look more favourable as new claims and changes of circumstance for tax credits somewhere for global companies to locate their business? from three months to one month, at a cost of £1 billion to ordinary people. Is it not the case that this Government Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I are more interested in helping the wealthiest and putting said, we want to ensure that our tax system is an asset to obstacles in the way of the least well-paid? the UK, so that we can go out there and sell the UK as a place to do business. We want one advantage of doing business in the UK to be a certain, stable, predictable Mr Gauke: I really do not accept the point that and simple tax system. having a simpler tax system, which is understandable by everyone and not just those who can afford expensive Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): When advice, is in any way a regressive step. As my hon. simplification is in conflict with fairness, which will Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said, prevail? it will benefit everybody and we are pleased to be able to do it. Mr Gauke: All policy decisions will be for the House and Ministers. The hon. Lady makes the fair point that Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Does the Minister one cannot take politics entirely out of the tax system, agree that along with the cancellation of Labour’s jobs but there are times when it is simply a question of tax and the reduction in corporation tax that his team complexity versus simplicity. There is scope for has proposed, this will also help to re-open Britain for improvement, which is what I hope the OTS will be able business? to deliver.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the Minister Mr Gauke: That is right, and I would add our tax make a special effort to simplify tax legislation so that it policy-making paper to that list. We want to provide is understandable for ordinary people? As a former tax greater certainty and stability in the tax system. It will lawyer—a poacher turned gamekeeper—I know that encourage businesses to invest in the UK, and we are too often, the best advice is the preserve of the richest. making good progress. That is not fair. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend, too, makes a good point. It is ironic that the new Government’s anti-quango On the day of the Budget we published our document approach seems to be translating into setting up more “Tax policy making: a new approach”, which set out a quangos. Apart from grabbing headlines, why cannot more consultative and deliberative approach to tax law, the functions of this new office be carried out within the ensuring that draft legislation is properly examined. We Treasury and, therefore, be directly accountable to think that that is to the advantage of all people; greater Parliament? clarity in tax law is clearly helpful.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Will the Minister Mr Gauke: Some months ago my right hon. Friend confirm that the two appointees will not get any expenses the Prime Minister made a speech identifying those or salary? Will he refer the appointments to the Committee areas in which quangos would be an advantage, and one on Standards in Public Life? of those was the ability to provide independent advice in a technical area. This is one of those areas, and we Mr Gauke: The appointees will not be paid. If they believe that engaging with outside bodies and making incur proper expenses, they will be reimbursed, as is use of outside expert advice will actually benefit the only reasonable—[Interruption.] I would have thought creation of good tax law and improve our tax system. all Members of the House would appreciate that. Ultimately, This policy is not about grabbing headlines, but improving the appointments will be in accordance with the relevant our tax system because that is what we want to do. We provisions, but we believed it important to set the OTS will leave the headline grabbing and the sudden up quickly. We have done that, and with two excellent announcements to our predecessors. individuals. James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I welcome Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): If those the statement by my hon. Friend. Does he agree that it two excellent individuals are to work for an initial is striking that the independent experts who will lend period of 12 months, will that be enough time for them their expertise to the OTS are doing so without being to read the 11,000 pages of tax code applied by the paid, and does that not contrast starkly with the millions previous Government? spent on ineffective quangos by Labour? 183 Office of Tax Simplification20 JULY 2010 Office of Tax Simplification 184
Mr Gauke: We are very grateful to Mr Whiting and Mr Speaker: Order. I know that the Minister will Mr Jack for giving up their time for free in an attempt to relate his answer to attempts to simplify the tax system. improve our tax system and provide a public service. They deserve thanks from both sides of the House, and Mr Gauke: I am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. it is a pity that there has been a little sniping from one or All I would say is that if my hon. Friend is speaking, I two Opposition Members. am sure that the Chamber will be packed.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Is the Minister welcome today’s initiative. Will the Office of Tax aware that in Hastings we have some very successful Simplification have a remit specifically to look at tax business groups? They often complain to me about the bands, particularly to make the UK more competitive? over-regulation and complexity of the system. If we are The corporation tax band between the small rate, the to achieve the necessary growth, we need to allow them marginal rate and the large rate contains a slight anomaly. to expand their businesses. Can he assure me that this office will focus especially on those small and medium Mr Gauke: Yes, the OTS could consider such matters. enterprises that will provide the growth that this country Essentially, rates will not be matters of complexity and needs? will be entirely for the House to consider. However, the point that my hon. Friend highlights is one that the Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is right to raise that OTS might well be looking at in its small business point. Of the two reports that the office will produce review. initially, one will focus on taxation for small businesses and the problems with IR35. We believe that this Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I am grateful organisation will be able to address that difficult issue, to the Exchequer Secretary for his statement. Will the which frankly has not been dealt with satisfactorily in OTS receive representations from business organisations recent years. and individuals who can make a contribution to simplifying the tax structure?
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I welcome Mr Gauke: We will certainly encourage the OTS to the response to the urgent question today. As a former take representations. Mr Whiting and Mr Jack are finance director, I will join many others in celebrating keen to do so and will be establishing consultative this simplification agenda, so that instead of spending committees to provide organisations and businesses time thinking about tax they can think about business with an opportunity to have their say and more generally growth. In particular, can my hon. Friend assure me to engage with businesses. We believe that, in the tax that the office will also cover the subject of VAT which area in particular, it is important that we engage with is as complex as corporation tax and others? business. That has been a characteristic of this Government, and we hope to continue to do that. Mr Gauke: The OTS can look at all taxes. We will agree other subjects for consideration in the future, and Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): I welcome the I am sure that my hon. Friend is right to highlight that Exchequer Secretary’s statement. Does he agree that tax matter. simplification will lead to greater business confidence in small and medium-sized businesses, such as those in my constituency of Dudley South, which will lead to the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The spat at confidence to make greater plans to create more jobs? the beginning of the urgent question about whether the written statement was first leaked to the press raised Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That the blood pressure of the shadow Minister. Would the is at the heart of what this is about. A strong tax system Minister encourage all Back Benchers—indeed, all can encourage strong growth in the private sector, which Ministers—to come along to the first Back-Bench business can encourage the growth we need to tackle our deficit, debate scheduled for later this evening on the very topic and I hope that the OTS will make a useful contribution of information on statements for Back Benchers? to that. 185 20 JULY 2010 Points of Order 186
Points of Order Mr Speaker, this letter clearly contradicts statements made by the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister to the House, and I am sure that you will agree 4.6 pm with me that it cannot be right for factually inaccurate statements to be made publicly in the House and then Several hon. Members rose— corrected purely by means of a private letter. Given that Mr Speaker: What a competition! What a delightful today the company has announced that it is suspending choice! work on the 15,000 tonne project for which the loan was proposed, what is your advice on when it would be Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): On a appropriate for the Deputy Prime Minister to come to point of order, Mr Speaker. Last week, on 15 July, in the House and admit publicly that the Government’s Department for Communities and Local Government justification for this decision has been admitted by him questions, in reply to a question about the future of the to be wrong? Government office for the north-west, the Secretary of State said: Mr Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his “We are currently discussing this with interested parties, including point of order. As he knows, and as others will be the trade unions.”—[Official Report, 15 July 2010; Vol. 513, conscious, I am not responsible for the content—including c. 1076.] the accuracy—of statements by Ministers. That said, if However, in a letter he sent nine days earlier to the a Minister makes a factual error in a statement to the Deputy Prime Minister, dated 6 July, he said that his House, it is preferable, as far as I am concerned, that he colleague, the Minister of State, Department for or she should correct that error in the House. The right Communities and Local Government, the right hon. hon. Gentleman has taken the opportunity very forcefully Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), and himself to register his point on the record, and it will have been had met formally to discuss the abolition and proposed heard by those on the Treasury Bench. I do hope that if “to move to an early announcement of the abolition of the such instances arise again, the general guidance that I remaining eight offices.” have just offered will be followed, for the simple reason Mr Speaker, is it in order for the Secretary of State to that it makes sense and is fair. say one thing in the House about continued open discussions Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On a point when he has already written elsewhere about it being a of order, Mr Speaker. We all appreciate what you have done deal? just said, but I should like to raise another issue. I Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for received replies on the board yesterday from the his point of order and for giving me advance notice Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to a of it. number of my questions. I shall not go into that, but the replies included a background note. That is quite a Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): novelty, as you will know—it has certainly never happened On a point of order, Mr Speaker. previously, in all my experience over the years of receiving answers to parliamentary questions. I was given one Mr Speaker: I shall come to the right hon. Gentleman answer along with a background note, which says: in a moment. “Mr Winnick has asked several other questions of IPSA,” I have not been informed that a Minister wishes to about whether it should do this, that or the other, and make a statement in the House today on this subject. the same applied with another answer. I do not mind— However, on the wider issues, there is an opportunity presumably the background note is saying, in effect, later today—this point was flagged up by the hon. that I am a nuisance and that IPSA wishes that I would Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone)—in the Back- go away—but what I want to know is whether supplying Bench business debate for the hon. Member for Blackpool a background note will become a standard practice for South (Mr Marsden) and others to express their concerns Ministers. Indeed, I would like to see the background about the matter. I have a feeling that some of them notes provided by civil servants to Ministers who are might be tempted to take that opportunity. due to answer my questions, so perhaps on this occasion Mr McFadden: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can IPSA should be congratulated on setting a commendable you give us your guidance on the appropriate procedures trend. for a Minister to come to the House and correct factually Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for inaccurate statements made in the Chamber? On 22 June, what is, pretty much, a novel point of order. Whether the Deputy Prime Minister told the House that the those who penned the background note ever intended it reason the Sheffield Forgemasters loan was not approved to be seen by him is something that I rather doubt. I do was that the company’s owners not think that the Speaker should get into the business “did not want to dilute their own shareholdings in the company”.— of dictating the precise form of answers to questions. [Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 148.] However, in general terms, I am inclined to say that the On 1 July, the Prime Minister repeated the point, saying that answer should be the answer, and that should be all that “there was opportunity for them…to get more equity into the is required. The idea that some supplementary text is business if they wanted to…dilute their own shareholding”. either required or desirable seems to me to be wrong. Yet this morning’s newspapers reveal that, in a letter to the company’s chief executive on 2 July, the Deputy Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): Further to the Prime Minister said: point of order raised by my right hon. Friend the “You explained to me the composition of equity holdings in Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), the company including your own stake and made clear your own Mr Speaker. I listened with gratitude to the answer that willingness to dilute your equity share”. you gave my colleague, the shadow Minister, on Sheffield 187 Points of Order20 JULY 2010 Points of Order 188
[Mr George Mudie] I am conscious that we will shortly—not just yet, but shortly—have a ten-minute rule motion. The hon. Member Forgemasters, but the gist that I caught was about those for Southend West (Mr Amess) is waiting patiently—as, on the Treasury Bench conveying your sentiments, so to be fair, is the Minister on the Front Bench—and we that such things would not happen on future occasions. need to get on to that business before too long. Would it not be appropriate to ask those on the Treasury Bench to convey that message to the Deputy Prime Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): On a Minister, so that he can come to this House and right point of order, Mr Speaker. I will be brief. It was drawn the matter, rather than—so it appears—being left in the to my attention this week that the Chancellor of the clear, with only future transgressors affected? Exchequer visited my constituency—a matter of which I was not made previously aware. In order to be able to Mr Speaker: That is a sophisticated point of order, welcome senior members of the Government properly which is what I suppose one would expect from someone to my constituency in future, will you clarify for me who has served for a long time in the Whips Office. On your guidance, Mr Speaker, on such ministerial visits the whole, it is not a good idea for me to get into the and what local Members should be made aware of? business of advising on the means of transmission of pieces of information or advice from one part of Mr Speaker: The short answer to the hon. Lady is Government to another. That said, the hon. Gentleman that if the Minister was undertaking an official visit—that has made his point, and perhaps it will be heard and is to say, on public ministerial business—the hon. Lady heeded by people on the Treasury Bench. should have been informed by the Minister before that visit took place, preferably with reasonable notice. That Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): On a point of is the answer. order, Mr Speaker. In outlining the benefits of the Office of Tax Simplification, the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury explained that tax simplification would BILL PRESENTED result in greater revenues to the Treasury. However, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS (AMENDMENT)BILL (Clive Efford), he said that the effects of simpler taxation Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) would be revenue-neutral. Given that the Minister is Adam Afriyie presented a Bill to amend the still in his place, would it be in order to ask him to Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 to require the reconcile those two positions? Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to reduce the cost and change the schemes of payment of Members Mr Speaker: Unfortunately the hon. Gentleman spoilt of the House of Commons; and for connected purposes. it a bit, as he was not able to keep a straight face Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on towards the end of his attempted point of order, for the Friday 22 October, and to be printed (Bill 60). simple reason that he knows perfectly well that he was simply seeking to continue the debate. 189 20 JULY 2010 Safety of Medicines 190
Safety of Medicines that the drug was safe, and some animal studies even found that it was protective to the heart, which supported Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order the manufacturer’s decision to market it. No. 23) In March 2006, six young men taking part in a 4.15 pm clinical trial at Northwick Park hospital were nearly Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I beg to killed by a drug which had been tested in monkeys and move, shown to be safe, even at 500 times the dose that the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about men were given. Clearly the results from the monkeys methods of testing the safety of medicines; and for connected had created a false sense of security. More comprehensive purposes. studies using human blood samples before the trial Hypochondria is not an attractive condition in anyone, might have averted that terrible disaster. Since the infamous but someone who is genuinely ill may be prescribed trial, several simple tests using human cells have been medicine and may benefit from it. I say to the Minister developed which can predict such dramatic reactions. of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Those two examples are not isolated incidents. In Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) that I very much fact, nine out of 10 new drugs that pass animal tests go hope this 10-minute Bill will become law. on to fail in human clinical trials, either because they do The development of medicines has helped millions of not work on humans although they did work on animals, people to lead longer and more active lives. Medicines, or because they are not safe when used on humans as however, are not risk free. Regrettably, there has been an they were apparently safe when used on animals. increasing level of adverse drug reactions, which is The pharmaceutical industry needs new mechanisms. obviously unacceptable. Action needs to be taken to Many new technologies have been developed in recent improve the safety of medicines as far as possible. years: for instance, a wide range of techniques using Extrapolating the number of hospital admissions due human tissues—including the interconnection of several to adverse drug reactions from a number of studies different tissues to mimic the whole body in miniature— indicates, quite shockingly, that around a million Britons human DNA chips, computer modelling, and exciting are hospitalised by prescription medicines every year, new methods of testing minuscule, safe doses of new costing the NHS £2 billion. This is a figure the public drugs in volunteers. A combination of those approaches purse can ill afford, and does not take into account, promises to predict the effects of new drugs on humans even in purely financial terms, the wider cost to society, more accurately than tests on animals ever could, with such as the burden of lost productivity. It is true that the bonus of significant savings in time and cost. It is some level of risk cannot yet be avoided, but the question astonishing that the regulations have not moved on in I want to pose is whether it would be better to test 42 years, especially given the way in which science has medicines for safety differently, before they are released been revolutionised during that time. to the general public. Animal tests have never been compared with a set of In 2005, the Health Committee—of which I was a those promising new technologies. My cross-party Bill member, as was the Minister of State—recommended calls for exactly that comparison to be conducted. A that a public inquiry should be conducted every time a sample of drugs that turned out to have serious safety drug is withdrawn on health grounds to determine problems when they reached clinical trials, or reached whether sufficient testing of the drug took place before the public market, will be tested. The tests will employ a its introduction into the market. It is a recommendation set of those techniques, with their focus on human that has yet to be implemented. biology. The results will be compared with the existing results from the animal tests that were conducted before So how are medicines tested for safety and what the drugs entered clinical trials. Thus no new human constitutes sufficient testing? The final stage of this trials or animal tests will be needed. The process will lengthy process is human clinical trials, and several reveal which set of tests is more successful at predicting actions are necessary to improve their quality, including the safety of medicines in humans. ensuring that the range of participants more broadly reflects the population the drug is intended to treat. For The proposals that I have outlined have attracted a example, many drugs for the elderly are never tested on high level of support among scientists and in the House the elderly, and women are massively under-represented in previous sessions. Early-day motions have been signed in clinical trials, meaning that the evidence base for by as many as 250 Members, and, more recently, by their treatment is of lower quality than it is for men. 243 Members. The sheer scale of adverse drug reactions and the fact that they are increasing at twice the rate of Before new medicines reach clinical trials, the prescriptions means that we have an ethical imperative Government require that they are tested for safety on to examine the causes and take action to address this animals, and it is these tests that are the subject of the very serious public health crisis. I commend the Bill to Bill. Animal testing is, I believe, ethically problematic the House. and many people feel strongly, as I do, that there is an ethical imperative to switch to non-animal methods—but Question put and agreed to. that is not the reason for this Bill. The reason for it is Ordered, that animal tests have let us down badly in their role of That Mr David Amess, Mr Peter Bone, Peter Bottomley, protecting us against dangerous drugs. Karen Bradley, Jackie Doyle-Price, Paul Flynn, Mr Mike Painkiller Vioxx, withdrawn in 2004, was the biggest Hancock, Dr Julian Huppert, Caroline Lucas, Grahame drug disaster in history, killing more than 100,000 people M. Morris, Mark Pawsey and Bob Russell present worldwide in its five years on the market. Clinical trials the Bill. of Vioxx did, in fact, reveal up to a fivefold increase in Mr David Amess accordingly presented the Bill. the risk of a serious reaction, such as heart attack, heart Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on failure or stroke. However, tests on animals indicated Friday 22 October and to be printed (Bill 59). 191 20 JULY 2010 192
Business without Debate Finance Bill [Relevant documents: The uncorrected oral evidence taken CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPPROPRIATION) before the Treasury Committee on 13 and 15 July 2010, BILL HC 350 i and ii, on June 2010 Budget.] Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Third Reading Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. Question agreed to. 4.25 pm Bill accordingly read a Second time. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the Gauke): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. Third time. Question agreed to. We have enjoyed a lively and wide-ranging debate during the Bill’s progress. I would therefore like to start Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. by thanking all Members who have taken part in the four days of debate on what is a short but significant Bill—despite its brevity, it makes fundamental changes to Britain for the better. The Bill follows the emergency Budget and puts in place many of the measures that are necessary to strengthen the economy and ensure fiscal discipline. It was a crucial Budget, and this is a crucial Bill because this is the time when we finally get to grips with our deficit. The Bill re-establishes the credibility of the country to the rest of the world. It shows that where tough choices are needed, the Government have the courage to make them, and it provides for a fair and productive society. The Budget was tough, but it was also fair. It set out a decisive and credible plan to deal with this country’s record deficit and to tackle the other problems that were left behind: a structural deficit £12 billion larger than we had been told; a deficit that was the largest in the G20 and second only to Ireland in the European Union; one in every four pounds of public spending coming from borrowing; an uncompetitive tax environment; and endless complexity and unfairness throughout the tax system. Our plan will pave the way for sustainable private sector-led growth, keep interest rates lower for longer and protect jobs. It is the right approach for the country. Last week the OECD said in its report on the UK: “The comprehensive budget announced by the government on 22 June was courageous and appropriate. It was an essential starting point. It signals the commitment to provide the necessary degree of fiscal consolidation over the coming years to bring public finances to a sustainable path, while still supporting the recovery.” Despite containing only nine substantive clauses, the Bill represents a clear change from the past and a new direction of travel, and it meets the three principles of responsibility, freedom and fairness set out by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary on Second Reading. First, the Bill shows that we are taking responsibility for the problems we inherited, and it follows a Budget more honest, more transparent and more pragmatic than those before it. We have been honest about the scale of the challenge, and we have been honest about the actions needed to take it on. If we are to bring down the deficit without cutting vital public services, raising VAT is unavoidable. We recognise that Members have concerns about that, but for the first time we have published analysis of the distributional impacts of Budget measures. It shows that fairness underpins the tough choices the Government have taken to tackle the deficit.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Will the Minister give way? 193 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 194
Mr Gauke: Not for the first time in this debate, I will, Mr Byrne rose— with great pleasure, give way to my hon. Friend. Mr Gauke: The right hon. Gentleman is eager to help Andrew George: I am very grateful to the Minister for me. I am sure that this will be a helpful contribution. giving way. He refers to the Budget as being both honest and disciplined. On VAT and the theme of fairness, Mr Byrne: The matter can be cleared up very quickly. which he says underpins the Budget, will he ensure that The scorecard on page 40, with which the hon. Gentleman there is an opportunity transparently to review the VAT will be enormously familiar, states that the “total tax measurer in clause 3? He has rejected the concept of a policy decisions” will result in £8.230 billion being sunset clause, but will this be evaluated, as proposed in received in 2014-15, whereas table C12 on page 101, the Government’s published taxation policy? If it is which shows the OBR forecast, says that only £3.1 billion going to be evaluated, at what stage should it be evaluated in receipts will actually come in. Why is there a difference and when will the House have an opportunity to analyse between what is on the scorecard, which is a little more it and debate the issue? than £8 billion, and what is in the OBR forecast for the money that will actually be raised, which is £3 billion? Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. As he knows, with this Budget we have set Mr Gauke: The right hon. Gentleman appears to be out more distributional analysis than any previous raising a perfectly fair point. The OBR was heavily Government have ever done before. On the VAT increase, involved in calculating the numbers for the scorecard, I say to him that all tax matters are kept under review. so I suspect that there is a perfectly innocent explanation He has a fine reputation for finding opportunities to and I will endeavour to ensure that he receives it before raise particular points in Parliament, and I am sure that this debate reaches its conclusion. he will do so on this matter. I am sure that there will be opportunities for him, and for other hon. and right hon. Members, to raise these matters in future. For the Mr Byrne: Is not the answer very straightforward? Is moment we have put in place an increase in the VAT not the answer that the Budget depresses growth so rate. We cannot make any promises to change it, and it much that tax receipts will actually be down, so even would be dangerous for us to do so, given some of the though the scorecard sets out a series of measures that points that we debated in Committee; a promise of a should, in theory, raise the amount that it sets out, the VAT cut in future is likely to result in a deferral of OBR, understandably, knowing that growth is depressed, expenditure. However, this is an ongoing debate and I has set out that far less money will actually come am sure that he will contribute to it fully, just as he has through? contributed to this debate fully over the past few days. Mr Gauke: If that is the point that the right hon. We believe that this Budget has been demonstrated to Gentleman is getting at, I must point out what the OBR be a progressive Budget that deals with the deficit fairly; made very clear in the Red Book. That point is that it is all sections of society contribute, but the richest pay misleading to make a straight comparison between the more than the poorest. I also have to make the point to growth figures that were projected on the basis of the House and to my hon. Friend that, of course, we market expectations of interest rates, which were lower should not look at the VAT increase in isolation, because as a consequence of the anticipated fiscal tightening it is part of a wider package that ensures that the most that this Government promised to deliver and that we vulnerable in society are protected. It is also worth have delivered, and the forecasts that do not take that making the point that during these days in which we into account. That is a point that we have gone over a have debated this matter we have learned that support number of times. The OBR said that such comparisons for the VAT increase was more widely spread than we were potentially misleading, so if that idea is what is ever realised. With exquisite timing, we learned from driving the right hon. Gentleman’s queries, I must point Lord Mandelson that the previous Chancellor wanted out to him that the OBR would not accept that. to raise VAT.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab) Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Is not one rose— explanation the idea that the OBR came forward with growth forecasts that were reasonable and at least had a hope of being accurate rather than the hopelessly over- Mr Gauke: I give way to a member of that Treasury optimistic growth forecasts put in place by the previous team. Government?
Mr Byrne: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend might well have the subject of VAT, can he clear up one problem that I came answer. One point that we learned from Lord Mandelson across in the Red Book? The scorecard for the Budget in the course of his much-loved memoirs is that the then says that about £8 billion will be raised in taxes by Chancellor, who is now shadow Chancellor, apparently 2014-15, yet the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast accused the then Prime Minister of having a “ludicrously in the back of the Red Book says that only £3 billion in over-optimistic” view of what the growth forecasts would tax will actually come through the door. Why is there a be and about £5 billion difference? “Britain’s ability to support such a large and expanding deficit.” Mr Gauke: I am not quite sure where the right hon. That might well be the explanation. Gentleman’s analysis is coming from. I am not aware that there is any discrepancy of the sort that he describes. Mr Byrne rose— 195 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 196
Mr Gauke: I shall let the right hon. Gentleman, who of child poverty after the Budget will remain unaffected, was of course a member of that Treasury team, intervene. taking into account all the measures of the next couple Perhaps I should ask him whether he supported the of years. proposal to increase VAT advocated by the then Chancellor in 2009. Andrew George: I hate to drag the Minister back to VAT, but he moved on from it very swiftly after the Mr Byrne: I rise with the ambition of being helpful to shadow Chief Secretary’s question about the alleged the Minister as he will not want to knowingly or black hole in the finances. Given that there is no, or very unknowingly mislead the House. He will know that the little, likelihood of a sunset clause in the Bill or a OBR forecast on page 101 is a forecast of what tax further evaluation of VAT within this Parliament, will receipts will come in on the basis of the Budget set out the Minister confirm that each of the zero ratings and in the Red Book. These things are entirely consistent exemptions from VAT, as well as the reduced levels of with each other and the forecast has nothing to do with VAT that are available, will be retained and protected? previous Budgets or previous OBR estimates. Will he That is very important in order for him to advance his confirm that for the House? point about the protection for lower-paid people.
Mr Gauke: The fact is that the big risk to growth for Mr Gauke: That is our intention. The Chancellor has this country would have been if we had done nothing made it clear that we have no intention of reconsidering about the deficit. If we had tried to ignore it, we would the zero ratings for food or children’s clothes. There are have found ourselves having our credit rating downgraded, occasional border disputes regarding goods that are as has happened to Greece, Portugal, Spain and now zero-rated and those that are fully rated, but on the the Republic of Ireland, and we would have faced a fundamental question of zero-rating we have made it contagion of sovereign debt. We have taken the necessary absolutely clear that we do not intend to revisit those actions to ensure that growth is secure and the fact is areas. that the OBR projections have far greater credibility We are also increasing the personal allowance on than the previous Government’s—we have learned about income tax. how political they were in making their growth forecasts. Our growth forecasts have credibility. Our public finances Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): May I drag the have a credibility that they did not before. We can be Minister back to his point about the VAT rise being proud of that. part of a package of measures and about the poorest being protected by the Budget when it is taken in the As we have heard, the previous Treasury team believed whole rather than just looking at the VAT rise? Will he that an increase in VAT was necessary and that was only remind the House what safeguards there are for pensioners blocked by the previous Prime Minister. One can hope or unemployed people who do not have children? What that the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member benefits will they gain that will pay for the extra VAT for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), has seen that they are going to pay? the error of his ways. I noticed that he did not feature in the Division Lobby opposing the VAT increase—perhaps Mr Gauke: Again, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the we have persuaded him, after all, that his views on VAT distributional charts, particularly those that examine were unwise. We have succeeded where the shadow these matters on the basis of expenditure decile, which Chancellor failed. academics increasingly believe provides a better examination We have heard legitimate concerns about how the of those who are suffering from material deprivation. most vulnerable in society will be protected, but we have That approach demonstrates that the measures are sought to provide such protection in the Budget. For progressive, when taken as a whole, and that the wealthier example, we have committed to the uprating of the sectors of society are paying more. The distributional basic state pension through a triple guarantee of earnings analyses show that the single tax measure that had a prices or 2.5%, whichever is highest, from April 2011. regressive effect was the dumping of the 10p rate of We have taken steps to increase the child tax credit. income tax that was announced in 2007, which hurt the bottom five deciles and benefited the top five. That does Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I thank the hon. not seem fair, and I am glad that we were not part of the Gentleman for his generosity in giving way. On this Government who did that. point about uprating pensions, will he take this opportunity Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will to admit that the shift from the retail prices index to the the Minister give way? consumer prices index as the definition for which all benefits and now all pensions will be indexed is scored Mr Gauke: I will, because the hon. Gentleman has as plus £6 billion in the Red Book, which means that he been such an assiduous attender of these debates, but I is taking that amount of money from some of the most want then to make some progress. vulnerable and poorest people in the country? Chris Leslie: I am grateful to the Minister for giving Mr Gauke: We have taken measures to secure the way. The distributional tables in section A of the Red public finances for the longer term, but we have done so Book that he mentions are quite interesting, but will he by protecting the poorest in society. We have provided a remind us why they extend for only two years? Does he triple guarantee for pensioners and we have finally plan to lay any more tables before the House, soon—I restored the earnings link that our predecessors did not do not know whether we could get them before the end succeed in restoring in 13 years. In addition, we have of Third Reading—so that we can talk about when the taken steps to increase the child tax credit by £150 next real cuts to benefits and to the poorest people will year and by £60 in the following year. As a result, levels kick in? 197 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 198
Mr Gauke: The further forward the projections go, competitive, while ensuring appropriate tax treatment the less reliable the information and evidence on existing for those activities that pose the greatest risk. measures, not to mention the fact that, of course, there will be a number of Budgets between now and then and Chris Leslie: I will certainly look closely at the bank further policy announcements will be made during that levy consultation, but I was looking at the Hansard period. Therefore, those projections are unlikely to be report of the costs to the Exchequer of the corporation particularly accurate or helpful to the House. tax give-away to the banks. It is not just £400 million in the final year, 2014-15; there is also £100 million of lost Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Minister revenue in 2011-12; £200 million in 2012-13; and has been telling us about a number of measures that will £300 million in 2013-14. Cumulatively, over the period mitigate the VAT rise, such as changes to the tax system of the Budget, there are £1 billion in corporate tax and tax credits, but none of those things is in the Bill. give-aways to the banks. Surely, if there really is no He has not mentioned some of the other cuts not yet alternative, the hon. Gentleman should think again announced but promised that are not in the Budget about that cash-back arrangement. either, not least the huge savings intended to be made in the welfare system. Would he care to give a more Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman was a Member of rounded picture and tell us what the impact on those the House in the early days of the previous Government, who are at the very bottom and wholly dependent on so he knows all about rolling up numbers. I could roll benefits will be when those cuts kick in? up the numbers for how much will be raised from the bank levy—I do not have the details in front of me, but Mr Gauke: This Government have provided greater we would get to about £8 billion—but I am not sure that distributional analysis than any Government have done that is a terribly helpful way of approaching things. before. Clearly, in very difficult times, when it is necessary The corporation tax reduction is just one part of the to raise substantial sums and to reduce the deficit very wider package to build a private sector-led recovery. dramatically, we have managed to do so in a way that Instead of increasing the small profit rate by 1%, we will has spread the pain. It is not the Government’s desire cut it to 20% in next year’s Bill, which will benefit some from any great sense of pleasure to be taking tough 850,000 companies from April 2011. We are increasing measures, but that is unavoidable—we cannot ignore it the threshold at which employers start to pay national or hide from it—and, yes, there will be pain, but there is insurance contributions and have announced a package no alternative. of support for small businesses. The package will also Our long-term objective remains to increase the personal include a reduction in the writing-down value of plant allowance to £10,000, as set out in the coalition agreement, and machinery allowances to 18% and a reduction in and we have made progress in the Bill and the Budget. the annual investment allowance to £25,000. That will We are increasing the personal allowance on income tax still provide for allowances that are broadly in line with and taking almost 1 million people—the lowest earning depreciation, while the annual investment allowance income tax payers—out of income tax altogether. That will still cover the annual qualifying expenditure of will also benefit 23 million people who work in Britain 95% of businesses. Furthermore, we are reducing the by up to £170 a year. main rate of corporation tax this year and changing allowances in 2012. We are giving companies a timing The second matter that the Bill stands for is freedom— benefit that will form part of the £13 billion extra that freedom for the private sector to grow, unconstrained will be invested as a result of the changes. by uncompetitive tax rates. The Bill will take the first step towards that by cutting the corporation tax rate to The third and final area that we are addressing is 27%, and it will be cut every year until it reaches fairness. Clause 2 increases the rate for capital gains tax 24%—the lowest rate of any major western economy, for higher rate payers to 28%. That progressive change one of the lowest rates in the G7 and the lowest rate that will substantially reduce the incentive for individuals to this country has ever known. disguise their income as a return on capital. It will ensure that the appropriate rate of taxation is paid, Hon. Members were concerned that cutting the main which is fair in itself. rate would mean that banks do not pay their fair share. Many sectors, including manufacturing, will benefit Avoidance is a significant issue for the Government from the reduction in corporation tax, but we have and it has been a significant topic throughout the Bill’s made it clear that the reforms outlined in the Budget passage. It was raised with reference to corporation tax will ensure a greater contribution from the banking and capital gains tax, and it is the target of clauses 8 sector—one that far outweighs any benefit that they and 9, which protect about £200 million of revenue a receive from lower corporation tax rates. The banking year. I assure the House that the Government are levy announced in the Budget is a surgical approach absolutely committed to tackling avoidance and evasion reflective of economic risk and intended to encourage robustly. banks to move to less risky funding profiles. Banks will pay at least £2 billion more in tax as a consequence of Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Will the hon. those proposals. Gentleman give way? The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), who has contributed a great deal to the debates on the Mr Gauke: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I Bill, was particularly concerned that the banks will be am keen to press on. let off for risky behaviour. That is not the case, but I We have inherited plans to limit tax relief on pension hope he will accept that a targeted approach is the best savings for the wealthiest. Under the approach in the way forward. Tax competitiveness is good for employers Finance Act 2010, individuals on the highest incomes and society as a whole, and the bank levy allows us to be who were able to make very large pension contributions 199 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 200
[Mr Gauke] one of the world’s great trading nations, could be isolated from its effect, and we were not. could have continued to get pensions tax relief worth up to £51,000 a year. We have concerns about the complexity Kelvin Hopkins: My right hon. Friend referred to the and fairness of the previous Government’s approach. 1940s, when the deficit was massively higher than it is Given the state of the public finances, we cannot ignore now. Of course, the magnificent Labour Government of the £4 billion or more of revenue that the policy was set 1945-51 grew their way out of problems by keeping full to raise, and as we are committed to protecting the employment and public spending going. public finances, the alternative needs to raise no less revenue than the existing plans. We are looking at an Mr Byrne: Precisely. The Minister could not understand approach whereby the annual tax relief available will be that point from his own Budget, but I shall explain it in restricted to less than half that under the previous more depth in a moment. Government’s plan, which will significantly curtail the On Friday this week, we will be able to test the ability of the super-rich to benefit from pensions tax durability of the recovery that Labour delivered. Almost relief. two years on from the oil price hitting $147 and the We have touched on annuities. We want to enable collapse of Lehman Brothers, the Office for National people to make more flexible use of their pension Statistics will publish growth figures for the second savings. We intend to end the obligation to annuitise by quarter of 2010, which I am sure all hon. Members the age of 75 from April 2011, and last week we launched await with some interest. But this much we already a consultation on the details of the change. Before a know. The ONS has told us that our economy has new system is introduced in next year’s Finance Bill, grown by 0.7% since its low point last year; that growth this Bill puts in place interim measures that will delay in the first quarter of 2010 was some £8 billion larger such decisions until an individual is 77. That will prevent than it was in the final quarter of 2009; and that output anyone turning 75 on or after Budget day from being is growing by about £88 million a day. disadvantaged by having to make a decision before the The National Institute of Economic and Social Research new rules are in place. has also already estimated that output in the second The Bill is at the heart of the Budget changes that are quarter of this year could hit 0.7%. If that comes to necessary for this country’s tax system. Unlike our pass, it will be no mean achievement, especially when predecessors, we do not believe that, in a pit of debt, we our neighbours tell us precisely how hard it is to sustain should still be digging. We do not believe that we can recovery. In the first quarter of this year, our last just borrow to pay for front-line services. In the words quarter in office, growth in this country reached 0.3%. of the previous Chancellor: In Germany, it was lower; in France, it was lower still; in “If we are not credible in what we do and say, people will the eurozone, it was lower; and Spain, Ireland and assume there will be more borrowing or huge tax rises to come.” Greece are all forecast to see negative growth this year. Our predecessors failed that test but we are succeeding. Labour is proud to be the party of the recovery, and the In the words of the shadow Business Secretary, we question that the Bill should have answered is, how do cannot wish the deficit problem away. The Bill will we guarantee the recovery’s future? promote enterprise. It is progressive and responsible, We are proud to have been the party that brought and I commend it to the House. together a global response to the recession. Here in London, countries from throughout the world agreed a plan, including a £1.1 trillion support package, that 4.54 pm helped to ensure the revision of global growth from Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I 1.9% last year up to 3.5% this year. We are very proud am very grateful for the opportunity to say a few things to be the party that stopped the British banking system in conclusion to our debate about the panic Budget that collapsing in the face of its exposure to melting international has been sped through this place. To all those who have credit systems, and we are very proud to be the party observed these debates about the Budget and the Finance that put in place here at home the most comprehensive Bill, it is now clear that the Budget is born not of recovery plan to protect people’s jobs from the axe, economic necessity, but of political anxiety—anxiety homes from repossession and employers from liquidation. that, if Liberal Democrat Members are allowed to see any more evidence of the damage that the Budget is Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): The right hon. doing to confidence and growth, they will remember Gentleman quotes ONS statistics, but he will also be where they buried their Keynesian tradition, disinter it aware of how last week the ONS reported that, from and refuse the Chancellor their support. peak to trough, the British economy declined by 6.7%— The great question that this Budget and Finance Bill more than any other industrialised economy. Is he also should have answered is how do we lock in the recovery proud of that? that Labour left? Winning that recovery dominated our final two years of office. Not since 1945 has the world Mr Byrne: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will intervene been hit by a recession on the scale of that which hit our again and remind us what happened in Germany and shores in 2008. The global economy shrank by some Japan. Will he tell us a little more about what happened 1% for the first time since the war, G7 economies to unemployment in other major economic nations? shrank by some 3% and world trade fell by some 12%. What started as a collapse in confidence on Wall street Sajid Javid: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for rapidly infected the world’s financial system and triggered giving me the opportunity to intervene again. The a disastrous domino-like collapse in confidence among 6.7% decline was bigger than that of any other industrialised markets throughout the world. No country, not least economy; no other economy racked up a debt, both 201 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 202 visible and unofficial, at the rate that we did; and no acknowledgment from the Conservative party that that other economy pumped in £200 billion of its own issue is worth worrying about. Perhaps that is because printed money, the results of which we still do not they were not the people who lost their jobs or were in know. He might be proud of the results that he thinks danger of losing their homes. have been achieved, but the full consequences of the Labour party’s actions over the past two or three years Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I are not yet known and may be much worse than we press hon. Members to make shorter interventions. The know them to be today. shadow Chief Secretary is being generous; may that continue. Mr Byrne: Let us come to that point directly. If we want to understand the difference between our parties, Mr Byrne: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. we need only compare the recession that we have been I want to pursue the argument for a moment longer. through in the past two years with the one presided over The implication of the intervention by the hon. Member by the Conservative party.Unemployment in this recession for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) is that somehow there was is half what it was during the recession of the 1990s. a cut-price way for us to have ensured the recovery, Furthermore, repossessions are 40% lower and company which is now under way in this country. Sometimes insolvencies are running at about a third of the rate when I listen to Conservative Members, I cannot make reached in the 1990s recession. We Labour Members out whether their preference is simply to have done believe that it is right to act to protect people’s jobs and nothing during the past two years or whether it is that homes and the firms that they work in. we should have invented some kind of cut-price plan to kick-start the recovery. Sometimes I feel that there is an Stewart Hosie: Much as I like the shadow Chief illusion on the Government Benches that we could have Secretary and much as he is doing a sterling job in rummaged around in a Budget bargain basement and attacking this new nasty Con-Dem Government, a wee found a Ryanair, cut-price, no-frills plan that would bit of revisionism is going on here. The UK did not lead have delivered the economic growth that this country is the way. The fiscal stimulus packages in the United now experiencing. States, France, Japan and even Germany predated the United Kingdom’s. If there were a bit more reality in this, there would be a lot more credibility to the attacks Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): What that the right hon. Gentleman is trying to level at the we are criticising is how the debt was built up prior to new Government. the economy going into freefall. Public spending in many areas doubled, yet productivity did not increase. Between 1997 and 2007, productivity went up by 2.3% in Mr Byrne: It would be churlish of the hon. Gentleman the private sector, but fell by 0.3% in the public sector. not to acknowledge the role that the Labour Government What we had was years and years of waste. played in bringing the G20 to London and agreeing a £1.1 trillion package of support, as well as the measures on international banking reform. All that ensured that Mr Byrne: Perhaps the hon. Lady could explain why whereas fairly low levels of growth in world trade and the Conservatives supported our spending plans until world economic improvement were projected last year, 2008. As for public sector productivity, she will know as we are now looking at a significantly better picture. well as I do that if more medical staff are put on to Surely he will acknowledge that. nurse patients, one might get a higher survival rate and better care, but such outputs do not show up in the cold Stewart Hosie: I supported fiscal stimulus; I still light of productivity statistics. support fiscal stimulus when it is necessary. The question is not what may or may not have been spun at a G20 Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The right meeting, but why the Labour Government left the UK hon. Gentleman talked about an illusion, and we can as one of only two G20 countries without a fiscal trade statistics back and forth, but at the election the stimulus package in 2010. I welcome banking regulation, ultimate judgment came down to the British people, but given that Northern Rock began to collapse in the who judged that Labour had failed to regenerate the late summer of 2007, why will the real new banking economy and offer a way forward. That was the ultimate regulation that we need still not be in place until the judgment, as opposed to the rose-tinted spectacles that autumn of 2012? he appears to be looking through.
Mr Byrne: I do not know what figures the hon. Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Gentleman is looking at, but in the March Budget the raising the question of mandates. If one thing is clear in fiscal stimulus provided by automatic stabilisers was the debates that we have had in the months since the about 4.4% of GDP. The idea that a fiscal stimulus was election, it is that there is absolutely no mandate for the not sustained into 2010 is fantasy. VAT measure in the Finance Bill. I would be interested to hear how he is explaining that to his constituents. Toby Perkins: I should like to bring my right hon. I do not believe—nor have I heard any explanation of Friend back to what he was talking about—unemployment, this—that some kind of recovery plan on the cheap housing, the impact on people and how the last Labour could have delivered the economic recovery that is now Government protected people on the ground. Is it not under way. In life’s difficult moments, one is always strange that there seems to be no acknowledgment from open to advice, but the truth is that if we had followed the Government Benches about how many extra people the prescription of the Conservatives, we could have are in work and still have the homes for which they have kissed goodbye to the recovery, not least because our worked so hard all their lives? There seems to be no banking system would have collapsed, the cash points 203 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 204
[Mr Byrne] 2.44 million. A year later, in the 2010 Budget, that forecast had fallen by 700,000 people to 1.74 million. would have stopped, the dole queues would have spiralled, That meant that over the four years of 2010 to 2013, repossessions would have spiked, and Britain’s small there would have been a fall of £14 billion in the businesses would have been submerged beneath a wave unemployment benefit bill, as well as an incalculable of foreclosure, bankruptcy and liquidation. saving in human misery. With that inherited recovery in place, the question Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): In August that the House should ask in relation to the Finance Bill and September 2007, when I and some others were is what action should be taken to speed up the recovery. urging the Government to make more cash and liquidity How can we guarantee the recovery’s certainty and available to the banking system to prevent the collapse begin to marshal investment into rebuilding an economy of Northern Rock and others, why did they ignore our that is better balanced? Instead of providing any answers warning? Why did they lecture the banks about having to those questions, the Budget and the Finance Bill will got it wrong, instead of supplying reasonable amounts slow the recovery down and put more people on the of money to see them through, and then bankrupt them dole. They offer a strategy for rebalancing the economy as a result? composed in equal measure of a wing and a prayer. Nothing better illustrates the gambling instincts of Mr Byrne: I seem to remember that the Government’s this Government than the fast cuts to public sector jobs response to the banking system was opposed by the and the depression of consumer demand through VAT. Conservatives when it came down to the substance of a With the most breathtaking casualness, they are prepared vote. When legislation was brought before this House to to put our hardest-fought recovery at risk. With such an accelerate the way in which the banks could be sorted unlikely scenario for growth in his pocket, one would out, the Conservatives voted against it. have thought that the Chancellor might just hedge his In the Budget and the Finance Bill, the Conservatives bets a little and ensure that the private sector was should have centred their rationale on how the recovery creating jobs at some pace before bringing forward can be sustained. In the debates on those measures, I plans to sack up to 800,000 public servants. One might think we have established that there is a consensus that have thought that he would have some regard for cities the deficit has to come down. The price of dodging an such as my home town, Birmingham. It already has economic doomsday was not cheap, and the deficit was high unemployment, but if the Chancellor cuts 9% of bound to rise. However, when the shocks hit back in the 156,000 public sector workers there, it will potentially 2008, we had the second lowest debt in the G7. Between rise by 14,000 people. That will not help the recovery in 1997 and 2007, we cut public sector debt from 42.5% of Birmingham; it will act as a drag anchor on recovery. gross domestic product to 36% of GDP.Over the 10 years That story can be told in towns and cities all over the before the crisis, UK borrowing averaged 1.4% of GDP country. compared with 1.9% for the rest of the OECD economies. As a result, even amid the current expense, our national Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): On precisely that debt will simply rise in line with every other major point about the different levels of private sector job economy. creation and public sector job losses around the country, was my right hon. Friend worried to see the Oxford We have learned something from the debates on the Economics report of last week predicting that in Wales, Finance Bill and the Budget about the disposition—the for example, just 4,000 jobs will be created, which economic philosophy—not only of the Conservatives represents 0.3% growth over the next five years? That but of the Liberal Democrats. They may feel that the will lead to significant net increases in unemployment in price of recovery was not a price worth paying, but they Wales and the report predicted that we would not see a cannot ignore what economic statistics are now saying return to the current levels of employment until 2025. about how the recovery is improving the position of the The picture is similar in the west midlands and other public finances. In March, my right hon. Friend the areas across the country. shadow Chancellor told the House that the deficit this year was £13 billion better than expected for 2010-11; in Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend highlights the second risk June, the Office for Budget Responsibility said that it that I wish to move on to. With risks so great, and was £8 billion better even than that. Since February, talked about so freely and with such casualness, one £123 billion has been knocked off projections for national would have thought that at the very least, the Finance debt, and that is before we sell our shares in the banks. Bill would contain one or two more measures to encourage The Government’s budget was underspent last year to the growth of domestic demand instead of measures to the tune of £5 billion according to Treasury figures that try to tax it back into recession. we saw a week or two ago, and interest rates were falling The truth is that the Bill attacks domestic demand in the months before the election. with such viciousness that the country is now hoarding When we examine the savings generated by falling its silver at an almost unprecedented pace. Britain’s unemployment, we can really see the wisdom of a families and businesses now have so little confidence in strategy that hinges on growing our way out of recession. the future of the economy that rather than make the Our policy all along was to act to ensure that we kept odd investment here and there, they have tucked away unemployment down. Not only did that policy work something of the order of £130 billion in the bank as well, and not only was it morally right, but it was the household saving rate has escalated. Britain is now economically wise. Our policy has delivered unemployment saving money that is not being spent either in the shops that is 2% lower than either in America or across the or on building new factories or production lines. The European Union. In the Budget in 2009, we had to Budget has not restored confidence but is draining it assume that unemployment would stick at about fast. 205 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 206
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine £21 billion of the deficit was projected to be closed by Greening): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? the economy returning to growth, with higher tax receipts and lower benefit bills. Mr Byrne: Of course I will give way to the hon. Lady. She has been chuntering away so assiduously from a The June Budget appears to hit growth so hard that sedentary position, and it will be nice to hear her from £9 billion of extra tax is necessary to make good the the Dispatch Box. effect of lower growth. That is the price of slowing the recovery. The Liberal Democrats are awfully pleased Justine Greening: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that they got an increase in income tax thresholds, and I that he thinks the savings ratio is too high and that we congratulate them on securing that concession, but the should encourage people to go out and spend, spend, truth is that they have been sold a pup. They could have spend even if they cannot afford it? had the increase in the threshold they originally wanted if we did not have to pay for the cost of lost growth. Mr Byrne: No. I am saying that the country’s investors now have so little confidence in the economic plan that The Budget scorecard on page 40 of the Red Book they would rather save their money than dare to invest it says that by rights, the Chancellor’s decision ought to in productive capacity and growth for the future. bring in an extra £8.2 billion in tax by 2014-15, but the Let us look at some of the measures that show the OBR says that only £3.1 billion will actually come decline in confidence. The Bank of England says that through the door, because growth will be depressed so mortgage approvals fell in June; last month, the consumer much by the Budget. The Red Book goes on to say—on confidence index fell for the first time in a long time; page 97, table C9—that something like £9 billion in and yesterday, Rightmove told us that house prices have extra taxes and spending cuts are necessary because of been cut for the first time this year. The Budget and the this go-slow Budget. In other words, the Government Bill are putting Britain’s recovery in the slow lane. The have almost halved the contribution of growth to closing greatest irony of all is that we must all pay more as a the deficit. It is now quite clear to the House that consequence. although the Government may have lost their monetarists, they have certainly not lost their masochists. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The right hon. Gentleman mentioned two aspects of aggregate demand— Sajid Javid: The right hon. Gentleman was comparing consumer spending and Government spending—but is the growth forecast of the previous Government to that he also concerned that the Government are depending of the current Government. Is not the truth that the partly on an increase in exports, because all the indications forecasts of the previous Government were made up by are that the markets in Europe and America will not be Ministers whereas the forecasts we are looking at today as buoyant as was assumed? Therefore, all three major were made up by the independent OBR? He talks about areas of aggregate demand will be subject to downward selling a pup, but was not the pup the forecasts of the pressure. previous Government? Mr Byrne: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely Mr Byrne: I hope that at some point in his future good point. The evidence on that is mixed. The CBI illustrious career in this House the hon. Gentleman has industrial production survey, which was published earlier the chance to put that argument to the chief economist this afternoon, shows that manufacturers reported that of the Treasury, David Ramsden. The growth forecasts the second quarter of this year was good and that they that were published in our Budget were set out by have a degree of confidence in exports. However, the Treasury civil servants. Like me, the hon. Gentleman problem is that the OBR is projecting a £100 billion will have noticed that the rebound in growth that was increase in exports over the next four or five years. That projected by the then Chancellor—now the shadow is the equivalent of our exports to America tripling, our Chancellor—was very much in line with the rebound in exports to China going up by something like 20 times, growth that we saw after recessions in the 1980s and and our exports to India going up by something like 1990s, but it was supported by far stronger monetary 40 times. That may well come to pass, but it is safe to say policy action. We were comfortable with the growth that very few people would bet on it. That is why the forecasts that we presented. The hon. Gentleman will Opposition believe that the Government should do a have to reconcile himself in the months to come to the little more to nurture both domestic business investment impact of slower growth and the fact that we are now and domestic demand. having to put taxes up—something that I always thought The alternatives for reducing the deficit that we have the Conservatives opposed—because demand has been rehearsed in the past couple of weeks bear a final word depressed to such an extent. this afternoon. I want to return to the explanation of the difference between the scorecard projections for tax Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): growth and what the OBR said would come through the Only this morning in the Treasury Committee we were door, which the Exchequer Secretary struggled with talking with Sir Alan Budd and some of the members earlier. The point centres on how much growth will of the OBR, who made it clear that their role in challenging contribute to paying down the deficit over the next four Treasury forecasters was strong and robust. They see years. The Labour Government’s deficit reduction plan the role of the OBR—as confirmed by Dave Ramsden projected that the deficit would be reduced by something when he was interviewed—as extremely positive. In of the order of £78 billion over the next four years, and fact, Mr Ramsden said that the OBR has achieved, in the OBR inconveniently told the Chancellor that we transparency terms, 20 years of progress in eight weeks. were on course to deliver that. That plan involved £57 billion-worth of discretionary action, which was set Mr Byrne: The hon. Lady is right to underline the out in detail in chapter 6 of the March Budget—£19 billion virtues of the OBR. I, too, welcome it, which is why it is in tax increases and £38 billion of spending cuts. However, so regrettable that it moved forward its press releases 207 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 208
[Mr Byrne] Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman has criticised the previous Government and gave the appearance of supporting the Prime Minister time and time again. However, does he think fundamentally through what was a sticky Prime Minister’s questions. I that the strategy taken by my right hon. Friend the look forward to the day when Members of Parliament Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) have the right to appoint the leadership of the OBR, to intervene when the wheels were coming off the just as I look forward to the day that we have the right wagon was the wrong thing or the right thing for us to to appoint leaders of the Office of Tax Simplification, have done—yes or no? who—we learned this afternoon—appear to have been appointed at some kind of whim. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I My final point is the basic failure of fairness in the remind Members that we have to stick to the Bill. We Bill. The truth is that the Government were so are being dragged off in different directions, so please embarrassed—perhaps some of their members were stick to the Bill. That is what we are debating. even slightly ashamed—that the Budget was so regressive that they only dared describe its effects flattered by Matthew Hancock: I am grateful for the opportunity Labour measures and three years before the full horrors to pay tribute to the then Chancellor, who expressed his take effect. We did not hear a word from the Government gratitude to the then Opposition Conservative party for about the £8 billion hit that our country’s pensioners the support it gave him during September 2008. That is will take in new VAT bills. Nor were we told about the often forgotten on the Labour Benches. £70 million of extra, irrecoverable VAT that our charities On the evidence, one of the central questions to will now pay. which we return time and again in this debate is whether We gave both the Conservatives and the Liberal there is a contradiction between dealing with the deficit Democrats a chance to vote for an amendment to delay and getting growth. It is clear that the Labour Front-Bench the VAT increase until a plan was in place to compensate team think that those two things are entirely in pensioners and charities fully, and they voted against it. contradiction. However, I want to consider the evidence The public will draw only one conclusion—that this for whether that is true. We all know that, in the long Government simply do not care. If I am not mistaken, term, tackling the deficit is unavoidable—occasionally the entire contribution of the big society bank that that is even acknowledged by those on the Labour Labour created will be wiped out by the VAT increase— Front Bench. Any child born is born with £23,000 of [Interruption.] I hear protests from the other side of the debt, and under the former Government’s plans, interest House. If they read the March Budget they will see would have amounted to £70 billion a year, which could clearly set out the measures to recycle dormant accounts otherwise have been spent on important public spending. into the social investment wholesale bank. The proposals There is also a question, in the shorter term, of appeared under that heading in many manifestos. whether fiscal responsibility can lead to growth. I was What a cruel con trick to perform on some of Britain’s interested in this, so I went to look at some of the evidence. most deserving. Yesterday, the Prime Minister told us There is a very good literature review by Alberto Alesina, that he wanted to put some oomph into Britain’s who, having described the argument that there is only communities. Many of us would agree that it was a either fiscal consolidation or growth, wrote that phrase worthy of the Mayor of London. This Budget “the accumulated evidence paints a different picture… Many tells us that the only thing going into communities from even sharp reductions of budget deficits have been accompanied this Government will be the boot. That is why we will and immediately followed by sustained growth… These are the campaign up and down the country for a proper plan adjustments which have occurred on the spending side and have for growth and jobs, and for proper protection from this been large, credible and decisive.” Budget for our pensioners. It is also why we will oppose If the shadow Minister thinks that the Budget was this Bill in the Lobby tonight. large, credible and decisive, I would be happy to hear from him. 5.24 pm Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): It is an Mr Byrne: I understand the debating technique that honour to follow the right hon. Member for Birmingham, the hon. Gentleman is adopting—trying to set up a straw Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne). Having spoken a couple of man in order to knock it down—but our deficit reduction times in the debates on this Bill as it has passed through plan contained £57 billion of decisions relating to fiscal the House, I wanted today to consider the economic consolidation alongside £22 billion of growth. Fiscal evidence. We have heard an awful lot about the importance consolidation was not posed as an alternative to growth; of what we need to do, and we have heard an awful lot actually the two things were seen very much as twins. from the Labour party complaining about every measure put forward, but it is also important to consider the Matthew Hancock: Unfortunately, those from whom economic evidence. Listening to his speech, it struck me the previous Government had borrowed so much did not that he thinks that nothing that the previous Labour see a credible plan from the Labour party. That is why Government did was wrong. It also strikes me that, so we have had to introduce the emergency Budget, so that long as he and his party continue with that approach, we could put that credible plan in place. Since the election, nobody will listen to them when they make other points. there have been downgrades in the debt of many of our It is clear to all of us who went through the election competitors, so it is critical that we have managed to put campaign that the previous Government did many things that triple A rating on a sustainable basis. wrong, and a little bit of an apology, or perhaps a I want to go through three reasons why a fiscal suggestion of individual things that went wrong, might consolidation can lead to growth. The first, of course, be appreciated in this debate. concerns interest rates. The long-term interest rates at 209 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 210 which many companies around the country borrow—they expansionary effects. The European Commission—not include those in my constituency, and no doubt those of something that Labour Members tend to barrack—said: all other Members—have fallen. In fact, since the election “Expenditure cuts may exhibit” expansionary features, the 10-year rate has fallen from 3.88 to 3.44%, which “even in the short and medium run.” represents more than a 10% fall in the funding costs of So the economic evidence is there. The best quotation companies up and down the country. Of course, that from that review is this: was not taken into account in the two productions of the Office for Budget Responsibility analysis, which is “Though now quite well established in economic literature”— why a direct comparison of the two is, as stated by Sir referring to the argument that fiscal consolidations Alan Budd, misleading. promote growth— James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I would like “this work is still feeding its way into the wider public consciousness.” to echo my hon. Friend’s comments about interest rates, No doubt part of the reason for the slow move of that but also add that low interest rates have a beneficial argument into the public consciousness is the argument impact not only on our economy and businesses, but on put forward by Opposition Members that it is not true. the very individuals and families whom the right hon. There are two other important ways in which Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) talked consolidation will get to higher growth. The first, of so much about. The most disadvantaged in our society course, concerns expectations of future tax rates. If will benefit most from the positive outcomes of the people around the country can see that spending is out fiscal and economic policy approach that we have taken. of control, they will anticipate that taxes might have to Matthew Hancock: My hon. Friend is getting a reputation rise in future, whereas setting out a clear path for taxes for making extremely good interventions, and that was makes it clear that there will not have to be sharp and one of them. Fiscal consolidation also means that interest immediate tax rises in future, even if that path includes rates can be held lower for longer by the independent some tax measures. That forward-looking element of Bank of England, which is a second important channel human nature, which is so important in understanding through which economic growth can be supported, and how the economy works, matters at a personal level—for not opposed, by fiscal consolidation. some people far more than for others, as I entirely accept—but it especially matters in the corporate world. Mr Byrne: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s argument Businesses look to the future to see how much tax they with great interest. He will have worked at the Bank of will be paying, as well as how much it will cost them to England for long enough to be able to read bond yields. pay it because of the complexity of that tax. That is why Like me, he will have noticed that they were actually it is so important to have both the simplification of the coming down from late 2008, down to a low point in tax system that my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary— February, not least because there was a flight to safety soon to be right hon. Friend, no doubt—set out, and in the European bond markets. As people began to the ladder down in headline corporation tax rate, which worry about what was going on in the eurozone, they will set out a 1% reduction year on year so that our chose to transfer to safer assets, including UK gilts. businesses know that Britain is open for business. That was because there was credibility in what was the fastest and clearest deficit reduction plan of any country in the G7. Owen Smith: On that specific point of corporations looking to the future and thinking about how to plan Matthew Hancock: Of course, the bond market could their business, can the hon. Gentleman tell me of any see a Conservative—or coalition—Government coming, industrial sector or any big British company that has and that is exactly what happened. I will say this to the responded to the austerity budget and said that they right hon. Gentleman: when there is a flight to safety, I now anticipate significant growth and taking on new would rather it was to British bonds, not to bonds people? I have not seen any such report. overseas, which is what could easily happen if we did not have a credible policy. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Before Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Those of us who the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) have looked at bond yields will have noticed that the resumes his speech, let me say that we allow some tightening—as it called—of British bonds actually happened latitude on Third Reading of the Finance Bill, but that in April. That happened as a consequence of the markets it would be useful if Members made reference to the Bill being sure that the Labour Government would be voted from time to time. out, as everyone in the City has mentioned. Matthew Hancock: The reductions in corporation tax Matthew Hancock: I am always delighted to talk that are outlined in this Bill have been welcomed by the about when the previous Labour Government lost office, CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce, the Institute so I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Let me of Directors and the Federation of Small Businesses. go through a few more elements of the economic evidence. Indeed, a multitude of business organisations have I have here an extremely good literature review, by welcomed it. Even the Engineering Employers Federation Policy Exchange, the think-tank, which lists— said that this was a path in the right direction. That Chris Leslie: Tories! shows the support from business organisations. Matthew Hancock: What Policy Exchange has done is review the economic literature, which is what I am Owen Smith rose— looking at. Perotti, in 1999, said: “High debt levels are associated with higher probability for Matthew Hancock: Let me make some progress; I fiscal policy to have” have only a couple of minutes left. 211 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 212
[Matthew Hancock] There seems to be an insistence that Government spending is somehow crowding our private sector The final argument is about productivity. Greater tax investment. That is ludicrous. The United Kingdom’s competitiveness not only helps productivity in the private output gap—the gap between what it produces and sector, as consolidation can also help productivity in the what it has the potential to produce—is somewhere public sector. We read only this morning that the police between 4% and 6%, depending on whose estimate we have said that they can take 12% out of their budget accept. The Chancellor expects the private sector to without affecting front-line services. I wonder what that take over demand from a shrinking public sector, but is 12% was spent on under the previous Administration. silent on where that private demand will come from. It is clear from what has been said in the debate that there Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Paperwork. are no real answers to that question. Matthew Hancock: My hon. Friend is probably right. The Government say that 2. 5 million jobs will be created— Several hon. Members rose— Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? Matthew Hancock: I am going to conclude. Mary Creagh: I will not, because we have only one So this is my argument: fiscal responsibility is not hour left, and eight Members wish to speak. The Front- contradictory to growth; it is absolutely central to Bench spokesmen took their time, and I intend to take sustainable growth in our country. The Budget is my time. unavoidable, but it also lays the platform for confidence The labour economist David Blanchflower, a former and for support of the businesses that are going to grow member of the Monetary Policy Committee, has said us out of this hole. Everybody knows that if one is in that the Government’s prediction on jobs is wildly debt, the sooner it is dealt with, the better; and the over-optimistic, given that the Labour Government created longer it is left, the worse it gets. Having looked at the only 1.6 million jobs between 2000 and 2008, when the economic evidence surrounding this Budget, I am absolutely economy was, by consensus, booming. delighted to say that I commend this Bill to the House. The VAT increase for which the House voted will 5.38 pm raise £12.1 billion in 2011-12, but will reduce the amount of goods and services that people can buy. It will Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I want to look at depress demand and delay the recovery. It will increase three areas of this Finance Bill. The first is the economic prices permanently by 1%, thereby permanently reducing impact of the fiscal conservatism contained therein, the value of future earnings and—one of the hot topics and particularly how, in tandem with the fiscal consolidation in the Bill—future pensions. It will also disadvantage taking place across Europe, it threatens a double-dip the poorest, who spend the biggest proportion of their recession not just here but Europe-wide. Secondly, I income. want to look at the social and labour market consequences Let me say something about the social impact of the of the double whammy of the VAT bombshell and the Bill. It was difficult to hear the details of that as the deep spending cuts. Thirdly, I shall focus on the political Minister raced through his speech. We have heard from implications of the Liberal Democrats making the wrong the Prime Minister that children need warmth, not choices by voting in favour of this Bill this evening. wealth, and they will certainly miss out on the wealth On the economic impact of the Bill, we see the part as a result of this Bill. Poor families in Wakefield pursuit of the Goldilocks economy—one in which neither will lose up to £1,200 as a result of changes in working too much nor too little is spent, but the spending is families tax credit. From April 2011 the Sure Start somehow just right. We all know that fairy tales are fine maternity grant will be available only for the first child for little children, but it is a dangerous metaphor because in a family. That means a £500 cut for low-income it over-simplifies a complex economy still in a fragile pregnant mothers who already have a child. state of recovery. How do we know that it is dangerous? Well, because the Office for Budget Responsibility tells Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the hon. Lady us that growth will be lower and unemployment higher give way? in future years, with 1.3 million jobs set to be lost over Mary Creagh: No. I am going to take my time. As I the next four years as a result of the measures in this have said, I am not going to take interventions. Finance Bill. Nappies, prams, babygros, bottles, dummies and high I tabled a parliamentary question a week or so ago chairs will all be more expensive for families in our about the contact between the Office for Budget constituencies as a result of the VAT increase, but the Responsibility and the Treasury on 29 and 30 June and grants to help the poorest women in our society to 1 July—and in the aftermath of those sticky Prime afford them will be cut. When I asked the Secretary of Minister’s questions debates. So far, I have had no reply State for Work and Pensions how he expected families from the Economic Secretary. I would have thought to cope, he said that he wanted them to recycle prams, that it was a fairly simple thing to look into officials’ but if someone has a child one year younger than diaries, ministerial diaries and phone records and to another child, where is the second baby supposed to give the House a reply on the important question of sleep? In the same cot? The parent of a second child will whether pressure was put on the Office for Budget still need to buy a new car seat and a double buggy. It Responsibility. will be more difficult for low-income families to buy all The pre-eminent question raised by this Finance Bill, those items. We are losing the baby element of child tax but left unanswered by the Treasury Bench, is: how does credit, and we are losing Labour’s proposed toddler tax taking money out of the economy increase confidence, credit, which would have meant another £208— boost growth and secure the recovery? The answer is, Matthew Hancock: Will the hon. Lady give way to an quite simply, that it does not. intervention on the increase in tax credit? 213 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 214
Mary Creagh: I know that there is to be an increase of closely with families and their babies, there is a surplus £150. I will come to that if the hon. Gentleman will of those items in charity shops. People refuse to purchase show a little patience and allow me to make progress or even to accept them, and I was interested to learn with my speech. He spoke for 13 minutes, and I hope to that the hon. Lady believes that part of the definition of take less time than that. poverty is if someone cannot have all those items new. As I was saying, the toddler tax credit would have provided an extra £208 a year for families with children Mary Creagh: I am not saying people should buy aged one or two. Moreover, child benefit has been everything new, but I am certainly not telling families in frozen for three years, which means a real-terms cut. my constituency that when they have a second baby they should trawl around to the local hospice shop or Kwasi Kwarteng: Will the hon. Lady give way? British Heart Foundation shop in a desperate quest to get a car seat so as to take their child home from Mary Creagh: I have already said that I am not going hospital without breaking the law. The hon. Lady says to give way to Opposition Members. It is true that child that those goods are in abundant supply. One of the tax credit will rise by £150 above inflation for one important things about car seats is that if we buy them year— second hand we have absolutely no idea whether they have been involved in a car accident. I am certain that Matthew Hancock rose— no Member of this House has bought a car seat for their child—for their new baby—from a charity shop. Mary Creagh: I am dealing with the hon. Gentleman’s What we ask for ourselves we should also stand up for point. Perhaps he would acknowledge that. Families on in this House, and ask for our constituents. low incomes, however, will see their costs rise as a result of the VAT increase— Chris Leslie: When listening to interventions from the Government Benches, it comes as a shocking revelation Matthew Hancock rose— to hear the notion expressed that those who are in financial difficulties can go round the charity shops Mary Creagh: I know what the hon. Gentleman looking for cots and prams. I do not quite see how they wants to ask, and I am happy to answer his question can do that for sanitary products or teething equipment, without his having to spend a minute asking it. for instance: perhaps the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) would suggest Matthew Hancock: On a point of order, Mr Deputy buying recycled baby bottles and so forth, too. All such Speaker. I am new to the House. Could you possibly products attract the higher rate of VAT at 17.5%, which advise me whether it is appropriate for a Member to will go up to 20% as a result of the Bill. Does not all this make an entire speech having stated in advance that he show a degree of condescension in the Conservative or she will take no interventions whatever? party’s attitude to those in the greatest need?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): It is very much Mary Creagh: I think it does, and I also think it is up to hon. Members whether to take any interventions indicative of the idea that the poor are no better than or a number of interventions, but what I have heard they should be, and that they should aspire to nothing from the hon. Lady tells me that she is going to take no better than charity shop purchases. interventions during her speech.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Andrea Leadsom: Will the hon. Lady give way? Speaker. The hon. Lady said that she was not taking any interventions because the debate had to finish in an Mary Creagh: No, I want to finish my point. There is hour. The Order Paper, however, says the debate may an important point to make about cots. No matter continue until any hour. Can you explain to a new where people get their cot from, they should never put a Member which is correct, Mr Deputy Speaker? baby to sleep on another child’s mattress, because they do not know what has happened to that mattress—whether Mr Deputy Speaker: Funnily enough, I was waiting it has been vomited or urinated on, for instance. for that point of order to be made earlier. The Order We talk about putting babies “back to sleep”, and Paper is always correct, and this debate could indeed go about cutting the rate of sudden infant death—which on until any time. predominantly happens in lower income households. There are issues here to do with families living in Mary Creagh: In that case, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am overcrowded housing and babies sharing beds with happy to take all interventions, even though I have their parents, yet the hon. Lady is saying that new spent three minutes clarifying those points. mums and expectant mums are supposed to go round hauling cots home in their eighth and ninth month of Andrea Leadsom: Will the hon. Lady give way? pregnancy and then putting them up. Frankly, she ought to think a little bit more about what she wishes Mary Creagh: I will happily give way. for her constituents.
Andrea Leadsom: That is the sisterhood. Alun Cairns: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to make a point about pushchairs, prams, car I seek your guidance on what cots have to do with the seats and cots. To my certain knowledge, from having Finance Bill, and on the relevance of the points that been involved for a long time with a charity that works have just been made. 215 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 216
Mr Deputy Speaker: The relevance is the subject of Charlie Elphicke: I just point out to the hon. Lady VAT, which is addressed in the Bill, but I would reiterate that child poverty had risen by 300,000 since 2004, the guidance given before I took the Chair, which is that whereas under this Budget it will be frozen for two people must, please, keep to the contents of the Bill and years. Does she not welcome that very positive fact? show some restraint, as many Members wish to speak. Mary Creagh: Interestingly, when the Red Book refers Mary Creagh: We have had a debate on the higher-rated to the effects on child poverty it talks about the next goods, which will be permanently more expensive following couple of years but does not mention 2013 and 2014. the votes that we will have this evening, but I also want Thanks to the work being done by my right hon. Friend to talk about the cuts to Labour’s child trust fund. the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford Andrew George: Will the hon. Lady give way on VAT? (Yvette Cooper), the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, we are finding that this Budget’s Mary Creagh: Yes,Igiveway. impact on women—in particular on poor women, low-paid women and public sector worker women, and therefore Andrew George: I agree with many of the points that on their children—is likely to hit disproportionately the hon. Lady has made on child care issues, but I wish hard. I leave the hon. Gentleman with that thought. to put something on the record for her. I understand that on children’s car seats, which have been mentioned, What is absent from the Budget and the Finance Bill the VAT rate is limited to 5%. is any mention of the poor. The changes to the disability living allowance gateway are to save £1 billion by 2014, Mary Creagh: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that but we need clarity about which groups of disabled clarification. people are going to be affected. The housing benefit I now want to discuss the child trust fund, which is move to the 30th percentile of average housing will have also being cut. When I visited Greenhill school in my an impact on families across the country. Stringent constituency to talk about financial education, I asked changes are being made to the housing benefit rules to 10 and 11-year-olds how much money they had saved say that anyone who has been on jobseeker’s allowance up in their bank accounts and the answers given by for more than a year will automatically lose 10% of those little 10-year-olds ranged from £50 to £80; that their housing benefit. was their life savings. But those children knew that their If that is done to people, there are three possible little brothers and sisters had got £250, and in some outcomes. The first is that the people involved find cases £500, from the Government through the child jobs—and good luck to them. I am sure that that is the trust fund. stated aim of the Government’s policy. The second possible outcome is that those people cannot find jobs George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Will the hon. because a further 1.3 million people are on the dole as Lady give way? the public sector and private sector job losses kick in, so Mary Creagh: I will make my point first. I bet that they are forced to borrow the money. However, we are there is not a single Member sitting on those green talking about people with a low income or no income, Government Benches whose children’s life savings amount so they will, in effect, be forced into the arms of loan to £50. I shall happily give way to any hon. Member for sharks and will fall into debt. The third possible outcome whom that is the case. is that these people will spend £10 a week less feeding their children, so their children will be pushed back into Andrea Leadsom: Will the hon. Lady explain whether poverty. The arguments being made about child poverty those children also knew that they had about £23,000 of will not wash with Labour Members, because both the debt each? second and the third possible outcomes will tip those Mary Creagh: That is one of the figures put about by families back into poverty. the Conservatives during the election as a way of frightening George Freeman: The hon. Lady mentioned the child people about the level of debt. Labour Front Benchers trust fund, and I think that all hon. Members would have comprehensively set out that the best way to agree that establishing a culture of saving is a commendable reduce the debt is by growth, and not by frightening thing. In principle, does she think it is better for children people. Most people who have a mortgage understand to learn to work and to save, or to learn that the way to that they have tens of thousands of pounds of debt—but acquire money is to be given it by the Government? the point is that when someone is paying off their mortgage they do not stop feeding their children, and Mary Creagh: The beauty of the child trust fund is they do not stop running their car. In effect, the Government that both those things happened; this involved people are paying off the mortgage much more quickly than who would never have thought of opening a trust fund. they need, and the consequences of the political choices I count myself among them, because I had no idea what that they are making will have huge impacts on every a trust fund was until I was “given it by the Government” constituency. when my son was born, but now that I understand what For Members on the Government Benches, £500—the it is and I understand the secrets of how people save for amount of the Sure Start maternity grant—may be their children in a tax-efficient way, it has enabled me to what they spend on a good meal at the Fat Duck in think carefully about how I plan for my children’s Bray. We debated that before in the House in relation to future. It enables families to do both those things. one newspaper columnist, Stephen Pollard, when the Most families are using the child trust funds to put a matter was raised by a Conservative Member—I believe little bit extra by. The parents who scrimp and save to it was the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). put into the child trust fund will not let their children For children on the Eastmoor estate in Wakefield, however, waste the money. The straw man that has been held up that £500 is a life-changing sum, and will change some is that they will blow it all on their 18th birthday party, of the life choices that they make. on buying fast cars and all the other things that 18-year-olds 217 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 218 do—[Interruption.] That is certainly what has been they vote tonight, and before they throw away 120 years stated by some Government Members as a reason for of Liberal tradition as the Tories’ new poodles. You are cutting the child trust fund; they have said, “You can’t being assimilated. You will be deleted. give it to 18-year-olds because they won’t know what to do with it.” When their parents have paid into the fund Several hon. Members rose— they will make absolutely sure that that money, which for them is a life-changing sum, will be used wisely by Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Before I their children. call the next speaker, in response to the point of order from Mr Rees-Mogg I stated that the Order Paper, as Charlie Elphicke rose— ever, was correct and that the debate could carry on for some time. However, hon. Members will also note if Mary Creagh: I have taken one intervention from the they look at the Order Paper that there is other business hon. Gentleman, and I am aware that other hon. Members this evening. Another debate is to follow this one and it wish to speak. can last three hours, so I ask for some self-restraint for the duration of this debate. The VAT rise in the Finance Bill will cost the NHS an extra £250 million each year, and it will be very bad for public health, too. Recent research by David Stuckler 6pm and his colleagues published in the British Medical Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I shall bear your Journal shows that social spending—housing benefit, advice in mind, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I know disability living allowance and other such benefits—has that many right hon. and hon. Members wish to take more impact on tackling health inequalities than spending part in that debate, which is fundamentally important on the NHS. They studied 20 European countries over to the vast majority of Members of Parliament. I hope two decades, finding that mortality rates increased when that I have demonstrated such self-restraint in my social spending was cut. So the public health impact of contributions to the debates on the Finance Bill and cutting the housing, disability and incapacity benefit will do so again this evening. budgets will be felt by the poorest in our society in the It is a pleasure, of course, to follow the hon. Member reduction in their life expectancy. for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). Her concluding remarks, In concluding, I wish to discuss what has happened in in which she used fictional characters to make her the past 10 weeks and the political impact that voting point, were a piece of fiction that was very entertaining, for this Budget will have on the Liberal Democrats. The but that is probably as far as it will go. past 10 weeks have been like a very dark episode of The Finance Bill—after all, we are debating the Finance Dr Who, with the Conservatives as the evil Cybermen. Bill and, perhaps sadly, not the Budget as a whole—has, The Cybermen were originally a wholly organic species as the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill of humanoids that implanted more and more artificial (Mr Byrne) made clear, nine clauses. It is rather limited. parts into their bodies as a means of self-preservation. There will be a further Finance Bill in the autumn and, This led to the race becoming coldly logical and calculating, of course, there were other measures in the Budget—the with every emotion all but deleted from their minds. hon. Lady referred to some of them—including the They use human pawns and seek to further their number public spending restrictions of which we will learn more by conversion. The Liberal Democrats are the from 20 October onwards. Those issues will no doubt Conservatives’ hapless victims. The Cybermen have to be debated in the future in the House. The debate this assimilate their victims in order to drain their energy evening is narrowly focused and has been defined by and live, but we all know that when the Cybermen have Treasury Ministers as they have brought forward a assimilated, they have only one further aim: they say to limited number of measures from the Budget. their victims, “You will be deleted.” I wish simply to make a couple of points. Primarily, I These are not progressive cuts. There is nothing want to focus on the issues that I have raised through progressive about slashing the extension of free school probing amendments to the Bill—in particular, those to meals to the children of the working poor and thrusting do with VAT, its impact and what alternatives there 50,000 children back into poverty. There is nothing might have been to the 2.5% rise proposed in clause 3. progressive about freezing the pay of dinner ladies, Before I do so, it is worth while to make it clear for the hospital cleaners and nursery workers. Why should benefit of the hon. Lady and other Opposition Members low-paid women pay for the fiscal hysteria of markets that I shall support the Finance Bill on Third Reading, and central banks, which presided over such colossal primarily because the Budget as a whole contained a market failure? Why is corporation tax being cut by number of measures for which the Liberal Democrats 1% a year for the banks when everyone in Wakefield is have been campaigning for many years, including the seeing their VAT increasing by 2.5%? Why is the annual increase in personal allowances, the triple lock on pensions exempt amount for capital gains tax rising each year and the introduction of a banking levy. That levy is not with the retail prices index when housing benefit and at the level at which I should have liked it to have been, occupational pensions in Wakefield will increase only as I have made clear in earlier debates, but none the less by the consumer prices index? it is a move in the right direction. I shall be encouraging Those are political choices. They are the wrong choices Ministers to lever it up still further. Other such measures for my constituents and for those of other hon. Members. include improvements in child tax credit, protections Economically, this is a deflationary Budget. It is wrong for lower paid public sector workers and closing tax for Britain, wrong for families, wrong for pensioners loopholes such as that on capital gains tax, which was and wrong for the poor. Politically, supporting this brought in by a Labour Government. Although I want Budget will be the wrong thing for the Liberal Democrats. to see that increase still further, with protections— I urge all Liberal Democrat Members to think before particularly for certain groups that will still use capital 219 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 220
[Andrew George] disability and their carers. As a rough guide, the 12 month figure of £370,000 would each year pay for around 20 full-time community gains tax as a means of avoiding paying their rightful support workers”. tax—it is still a move in the right direction. In view of I hope that the Government will take the impact on all those measures, and in spite of my misgivings about charities on board. other aspects of the Bill, I shall support the Government Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) on Third Reading. (PC): Is not the tragedy of the increase in VAT and its As I have made clear, I had a number of misgivings. effect on charities the fact that we know that it will cost The Government are well aware that I refused to support £150 million across the sector, but the human cost of them on the increase in VAT, as the voting record clearly the recession is now feeding into the system and we have shows. In the conclusion to the Budget, the Chancellor not yet reached its peak? The pressure on services is made it clear that the intention was to ensure that increasing all the time at a time when costs are also “the burden is fairly shared” increasing. and that the aim was to have Andrew George: In the context of the extremely difficult “The richest paying the most and the vulnerable protected”.— circumstances in the economy, the VAT rise will certainly [Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 180.] make things doubly difficult for charities, because where I shall not rehearse all the arguments contained in the they depend on donation income to make up the shortfall Red Book and the Institute for Fiscal Studies’ analysis that has been created as a result of the VAT rise, that of the impact of the VAT rise, but, having considered will be significantly more difficult. A number of charities the impact on public services, on charities, on rural are already reporting that charitable donations have dwellers dependent on an old banger to get around decreased in recent times and this will make the environment because of the inadequacy of public transport and on significantly more difficult for them to survive in. poor families, I believe that the increase in VAT is Let me give as a local example Penwith Housing regressive. That is clearly not a view held by Ministers, Association. Its chief executive, Andy Moore, has provided but it is still relevant. me with a briefing regarding the impact that the rise would have on that association and its management of Let me refer to three elements of the impact of the its stock VAT increase on charities. First, a briefing has been “due to VAT being chargeable to PHA for all our repair and supplied to me by Save the Children that states that maintenance expenditure and many other service costs.” “we will pay more in VAT but will not be able to charge VAT on He said that as it does not charge VAT on its rented our income as other companies do. This is a real concern.” homes, it has little opportunity to recover the tax. Save the Children’s analysis of the figures presented in Penwith Housing Association anticipates that the cost the Red Book points out that the deciles that are to it will be about £182,000 a year. That money will identified in the graphs include the most wealthy decile, probably have to be found through increasing tenants’ which commences at £49,700 per annum. A lot of the rents, but its tenants are already on low earnings. Given very wealthy receive an income of significantly more that tenants’ housing benefit might be cut as well, the than that. Save the Children states that VAT rise will create significant pressure. “the graph measures the impact at 2012/13 which doesn’t include In an intervention on the Exchequer Secretary in his the impact of the tax & benefits changes in the Emergency Budget opening remarks, I emphasised a point that I and the over the whole parliament and probably fails to pick up the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), who changes in the measurement of the uprating (RPI to CPI). The is not in his place, had brought forward in amendments essential point is that although the highest earning households that we had proposed—the possibility of introducing a pay more, they still pay proportionately less of their household sunset clause in relation to the VAT increase. That income on the tax increases than poorer households.” would have chimed with the Government’s claimed tax In previous debates, I have said that the impact on those policy as set out in chapter 3 of the tax policy document households with children is clearly regressive according that was published alongside the Budget. There was a to Save the Children. strong sense that the Government had an opportunity Mencap has also provided me with a briefing on the to demonstrate that, as the Budget was an emergency impact that the measure is likely to have on its services Budget and the VAT rise was therefore an emergency for the learning disabled. Mencap provides important measure, the VAT rise could be time-limited and that services and accommodation for the learning disabled there might at least be an opportunity for a sunset and it estimates that for the 15 months from January 2011 clause. Ministers could have accepted the measure then to April 2012—that is, until the end of the next financial or it could have been introduced on a more acceptable year—the cost to it will be £450,000, nearly half a date. There could at least have been a promise of a million pounds. That figure includes non-recoverable formal evaluation of the impact of the VAT rise and an VAT incurred by its housing subsidiary, Golden Lane opportunity for Parliament properly to scrutinise both Housing, which plays a significant role in Cornwall, the impact of the rise and whether, in the context of the where it provides an important service. I received the emergency Budget, the fiscal situation had improved by advice from one of Mencap’s trustees who lives in my the time the review and evaluation took place. Parliament constituency, Colin Rogers. His concern as a trustee is could then come to a conclusion as to whether it was that satisfied with the measure. I am very disappointed that the Exchequer Secretary “as much of Mencap’s income is earned and not donated and since these earnings come from service provision which is also has not accepted the proposals either for a sunset clause likely to be cut, we are potentially facing a dire financial position or for an evaluation of the impact of the VAT rise. I which can only be managed by reducing the many services which hope that Treasury Ministers will review this issue in we subsidise or provide free-of-charge to people with learning due course. 221 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 222
Ms Angela Eagle: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s the huge role that the international banking crisis played arguments very carefully. Will he tell us whether he is so in relation to the state of the public finances and our disappointed that he will now finally consider not going economy at large. into the Lobbies to support the Budget on Third Reading? Andrew George: Perhaps the hon. Lady was not listening Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the hon. Gentleman give to my opening remarks when I said that on balance, way? because there are many measures that I approve of, even Mr Umunna: I wish to make a bit of progress, but I though I am disappointed by this particular measure, I might give way in a bit. will be supporting the Government. This is, of course, a I wish to acknowledge that the Conservative side of Finance Bill and not the Budget as a whole. the happy couple that is our coalition is at least consistent I was reassured, but I seek further reassurance from in its approach. The Conservatives fail to acknowledge Treasury Ministers, regarding the promise that the the gravity of the financial crisis and its effect on our Government will not revisit the current list of zero-rated economy now and they failed to acknowledge the gravity and 5%-limited VATable products and services and that of the crisis back in the autumn of 2008 when the they certainly have no intention of reducing those lists Labour Government and others around the world took or in any way cutting the number of VAT-exempt, decisive action to save the financial services sector from zero-rated or VAT-limited products and services such as itself and to protect the deposits of our constituents. those that we have been debating. The current Prime Minister and his Chancellor were Toby Perkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? then advocating the complete opposite—a do-nothing approach. Andrew George: I am just bringing my remarks to a Let us be clear. Whatever those on the Government close and I know that a lot of people wish to engage in Benches say, no serious economist currently claims that the Backbench Business Committee debate later, so I the deficit can be disassociated from the global credit hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear with me. crunch I have just described. The credit crunch led the It has been a pleasure to take part in the debates last Government to spend billions to prop up the financial throughout the proceedings of the Finance Bill. I put services sector and to support our economy in the face on record my disappointment regarding the VAT measure of a global economic downturn that caused tax receipts in particular and I hope that Treasury Ministers will to plummet and benefit payments to increase. reflect on the debate and come forward with an evaluation in the months and years ahead. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 6.15 pm Mr Umunna: No I will not; I will make some progress Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): The measures first, and I will give way in a bit. in the Bill and the emergency Budget in general have been called many things. The Chancellor has described What we are witnessing now is a gross and distorted them as “tough but fair”, the Prime Minister has described rewriting of history and repainting of the picture to them as “open” and “responsible” and the Exchequer justify the imposition of a Finance Bill and Budget that Secretary, who is no longer in his place, has referred to are less about economics and all about politics. the comments of the Chief Secretary on the Bill’s On 23 June, in an insightful piece in the Conservative Second Reading. The four characteristics that the Chief house journal, The Spectator, its political editor described Secretary chose to attribute to the Bill and the emergency the Chancellor’s Budget thus: Budget were “fair”, “business-friendly”, “responsible” “The mission, as Mr Osborne sees it, is to shrink the public and “unavoidable”. I shall address each of those in turn sector and grow the private sector—the classic goal of the modern and relatively quickly as I understand that others wish British centre-right.” to speak. That is what the measures in the Bill and the emergency First, however, I want to consider the premise on Budget are all about. which the Bill is being marketed to us. According to the Let us address the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s coalition, the Bill addresses the need to reduce the claims that the Bill is fair. He said: deficit that was caused by profligacy of the previous “This is a Budget that protects the most vulnerable, especially Government. In Committee, the right hon. Member for children in poverty and pensioners, while ensuring that those with Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said that “we are where we the broadest shoulders take the greatest share of the burden.”— are because of the utter mess bequeathed to us by [Official Report, 6 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 203.] Labour in the last Government”. It seems that reference Just a few weeks ago, a Liberal Democrat leaflet was to this supposed mess has become mandatory in all pushed through thousands of letterboxes in my constituency interventions by Cabinet Ministers and Members on under the headline, “Clegg delivers on promises”, the Government side for the duration of the Bill’s proclaiming that the Government are reducing the deficit passage through the House. in as fair a way as possible. It made a series of claims in relation to the Bill and the emergency Budget. First, it In the coalition’s view, the credit crunch is but a claimed that there will be “more money for schools”. minor detail when studying the public sector debt: the We have seen now how accurate that claim was: consider liquidity crisis that took hold of financial markets from the Building Schools for the Future debacle that we August 2007 is just a blip; central banks having to step have witnessed over the past few weeks. in to provide extra liquidity from there on is a minor detail; and the collapse of Lehman Brothers in September 2008 Secondly, the leaflet claimed that is insignificant. In adopting that stance, they utterly “tax credits for needy households” fail, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, will be Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) has pointed out, to acknowledge “saved”, 223 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 224
[Mr Umunna] The signs are that those businesses, along with leading economic experts, do not share his optimism. A recent yet the emergency Budget, in fact, freezes child benefit, survey of the service sector by the Chartered Institute thus producing a real-terms cut for more than 14,000 in of Purchasing and Supply showed that confidence in my constituency who receive the payment. Thirdly, it the sector has been dented by the austerity measures claimed that the emergency Budget included announced in the Budget, of which, of course, the Bill “a tax cut for low and middle income families by raising tax is a part. The survey registered a fall in confidence allowances”. between May and June this year that was the most That neglects to mention that the increased allowances significant drop since records began 14 years ago. Since are completely outweighed by the panoply of regressive the First Reading of the Bill, the International Monetary measures in the Budget—most notably, the unfair VAT Fund has updated its 2011 growth forecasts, downgrading rise that will be introduced under clause 3. that of the UK by 0.4% on its April figures—the largest During the general election campaign, my Liberal drop in the forecast of any major economy over that Democrat counterpart and I spoke at an international period. The BDO business optimism index, which measures Save the Children event in my constituency and both business confidence, saw its sharpest fall since 1995 talked of the need to reduce child poverty. Save the between May and June this year, and who can blame Children is running an excellent campaign in opposition those involved? to the VAT hike—a hike that the Liberal Democrats Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East now sanction. I note that there is but one Liberal Cleveland) (Lab): I should like to echo my hon. Friend’s Democrat Member, I think, in the Chamber at present. words, especially given that the Government will reduce annual investment allowances by £75,000 under the Bill, Andrew George: Three. which determines that a monetarist miracle will be Mr Umunna: Okay; three. export-led. Given that on emergency Budget day, the The charity said: Engineering Employers Federation, which represents manufacturers, said: “A 20% VAT rate means that the poorest parents will see their VAT bill rise to at least £1,600 a year—affecting already overstretched “Reducing the corporation tax rate over time…might be a budgets—and driving some into the arms of loan sharks”, positive signal for large companies, but not for their suppliers”, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary how will that meet export-led targets that are predicted, Creagh) has just mentioned. yet not witnessed since 1945, especially when the majority of nations’ economies are contracting? The fourth and final claim in the Liberal Democrat leaflet is that they stopped Mr Umunna: Of course, I agree with my hon. Friend. “Tory plans for a huge Inheritance Tax give-away for the wealthy.” In addition, behind closed doors, some people in the Even if we accept that claim—I do not—the omission Treasury share the pessimism about the state of our of that give-away from the Bill pales in comparison with economy, with a leaked Treasury document showing an the appallingly regressive overall impact of the Budget, expected unemployment increase of 1.3 million over the which the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others have next five years owing to the coalition Government’s looked into. It has calculated that the total effect of the economic policies. As well as the colossal human cost of tax rises and spending cuts will cost the average family those job losses, that will exacerbate the deficit by in the top income decile £1,135 a year. It will cost the significantly increasing unemployment benefit payments, average family in the bottom income decile £1,344— as I mentioned before, and cutting income tax and £209 more in real terms. The poorest will be 20.5% national insurance receipts significantly, but let me go worse off, and the richest will be 1.6% worse off. So on to the next point, as I wish to make some progress. when it comes to social justice, the Government have According to the Chief Secretary, the Bill will help to absolutely nothing to boast about. reduce the deficit and take action to eliminate the The suggestion made in the leaflet that those who are structural deficit, which is, of course, an obsession of on low incomes should rejoice at the fairness of a the Government. We have already seen that their budget that places a larger real-terms burden on the determination to do that could lead to the biggest cuts poorest than the richest is an utter disgrace. What is in Government spending that we have seen for many even more disgraceful is the fact that the measures in decades, but let us linger a little on the claim that the the Bill and the emergency Budget were a choice. Whatever Bill is “responsible”. I have already explained how the rewriting of history the coalition indulges in, it cannot coalition has sought to conflate public finances before distract us from a simple fact: the coalition Government the financial crash with the measures taken to mitigate have actively chosen to do this to my community. the crash’s impact on hard-working ordinary people, but it is crucial that we establish what is “responsible” Gavin Williamson: Does the hon. Gentleman not feel and what is not. The facts tell a very different story from that the last Labour Government had any responsibility that told by the coalition Government. for the economic situation that we find ourselves in and When Labour came to power, as the shadow Chief that the uncontrolled borrowing had an impact and led Secretary has said, public sector net debt was 42.5% of to the decisions that are encompassed by the Bill? GDP. On the eve of the financial crisis, it was 36.5%, and interest payments had fallen from 3% to 1.6% of Mr Umunna: I will turn to those exact points in the national income. A recent report by the IFS found that, rest of my speech if the hon. Gentleman will wait. “the UK public finances were in better shape when the financial Let me address the claim that the Bill will, as the crisis began than they were when Labour came to power.” Chief Secretary said, help By contrast, Germany’s indebtedness amounted to 65% of “businesses that we rely on to rebuild our broken economy”.—[Official national income in 2007. In France, the figure was Report, 28 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 674.] 63.8%; in Italy, 103.5%; and Japan ran consistent deficits, 225 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 226 with the result that it owed 167.6% of national income Of course, the Government will introduce a bank levy by 2007. In short, the UK Government’s borrowing at that is forecast to raise about £2 billion, but that is a that time was not of the order suggested by the Conservative pin-prick when one considers the vast profits made in party and certainly did not by any stretch of the imagination the sector. Even the IMF has proposed that the levy cause the economic crisis that followed. should raise £6 billion a year if we are properly to curb That crisis, of course, caused the world economy to the “reckless behaviour” of the people in the industry. contract for the first time since the second world war. That additional £4 billion a year could— As I said, that called for decisive fiscal expansion—for Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The billions to be injected into failing banks and into a hon. Gentleman’s speech is going wider than the Finance flagging economy. How lucky we were that the then Bill itself, so will he please direct his comments to the Government intervened. I for one refuse to apologise to Bill? Government Members for the bold action that the Labour party took to keep people in work, to ensure Mr Umunna: I was actually reaching the end of my that they could still take money out of the ATM cash speech, Mr Deputy Speaker. The key point that I am machines in the wall and to prevent the recession from trying to make is that there is an alternative: a deficit mushrooming into a catastrophic depression. reduction strategy that is based on growth and fair tax Let it be said loud and clear that responsibility was rises, as opposed to the scorched earth policy being what the previous Government did, but irresponsibility pursued by the two parties in government. The alternative is pinning the blame for the size of the public sector debt is similar to the strategy that President Obama is pursuing on the previous Government and using that as a reason in the US which, in vain, he is trying to persuade our to hack off chunks of the public sector through spending Prime Minister to follow. The alternative is to go for a cuts. Will Hutton, whom the Government have just more sensible timetable for deficit reduction, because as appointed to head up their commission on high pay in Roger Bootle of Capital Economics said last week the public sector, hit the nail on the head when he wrote before the Treasury Committee, in October that it was not the Labour Government “In straightforward economic terms, I am not sure it would “that got us into this mess…What got us into this mess above all make a great deal of difference if the adjustment were over a was the 30-year rise of Big Finance”. longer period.” However, the same people who insist that the previous The alternative is to avoid the overwhelmingly avoidable Government got us into this mess propose in the Bill a measures presented in this Bill—not least the VAT corporation tax cut that will gift millions to big finance— rise—that ultimately hit the poorest hardest. I assert that is what I call irresponsible. that the Bill is four things: avoidable, unfair, damaging Let me finish by examining the claim around which to business and deeply irresponsible. much of the Budget debate has revolved: that this was 6.34 pm an “unavoidable” Budget, thus making the Finance Bill unavoidable, too. The two parties in government have Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I shall canter made a set of choices that, I dare to venture, predate the through my comments because I know that time is very economic crisis by a number of years. The game plan on short. I always try to find something for which to thank which the Budget was based was disclosed long ago in the previous speaker, so I thank the hon. Member for the 2005 Conservative manifesto, the author of which Streatham (Mr Umunna) for not mentioning Doctor happens to be the new occupant of No. 10 Downing Who. The hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) street. The Conservatives pledged in their manifesto to mentioned the Cybermen at quite an uncanny moment slash 250,000 public sector jobs and to abolish 168 public because I was wondering which planet she was on. Her bodies. Back then, Howard Flight, the party’s deputy speech reflected her state of denial about the level of chairman, was secretly recorded saying that the cuts debt that we are in and the budget deficit that the publicly advocated by his party were a fraction of those Government have inherited. It is ridiculous that a speech planned. He said that the actual plans had been recalibrated in this debate omits mentioning the astronomical amount into something that would be “politically acceptable” that we have to pay just to service our debt. and that his party Bizarrely for this debate, I would like to make several “had to win an election first”, points about the Finance Bill. I am interested by the but that afterwards Treasury’s use of dynamic modelling to reach its 28% figure “you can actually get on with what needs to be done.” for capital gains tax, and would like to see what that We therefore cannot say that we were not warned, dynamic modelling entails. If we were to use dynamic although people’s surprise that the Conservatives have modelling for other taxes, such as income tax, I wonder been joined in their venture by the Liberal Democrats is what the ideal figure would be to generate the most wholly understandable. income but hit people the least. Given all the shifting political sands and hidden I had the privilege of attending a couple of lectures agendas, the game of choices necessitates an eagle eye, given by the great economist Art Laffer—he of the because what stands out from the Bill and the Government’s Laffer curve. He shows that if people are taxed at 100%, general economic policies is not just the unfair VAT rise there is no receipt, because no one bothers working, and the corporation tax gift to the City, as well as the that if tax is 0%, there is no revenue because none is disingenuous rhetoric with which they are presented, paid, but that there are ideal points somewhere in but what is absent from the Budget and the Finance between. I assume that the Treasury was using a similar Bill. Where, for example, is the plan to make the financial process in its dynamic modelling, but it would be nice to services sector bear its fair share of the burden? The see the detail. Wall Street Journal said that the City should I welcome the reforms and cut to corporation tax. We “count itself lucky with the coalition government’s emergency live in a global market, so we must set our corporation budget”. tax competitively. I hope that the measures will be good 227 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 228
[Chris Heaton-Harris] The website goes on to list ways in which individuals can help themselves, and I shall end with a salient piece for all businesses because we want them to reinvest in of advice: themselves, and our approach will leave more money in “if you continue living in Debt Denial, you’ll never make any small businesses for reinvestment. progress towards paying off your debts. And paying off your I am pleased with the measures that will directly help debts improves your credit, giving you the freedom to do more small businesses, because I know that small businesses things…you’ve” and the private sector will drive us out of this economic been wanting to do. I am pleased that the coalition is mess with wealth and job creation. Many Labour Members moving forward with many sensible measures in the think that growth in the public sector stimulates the Finance Bill, and I also commend debtdenial.com to economy, but it does not. It does soften the fall of a Labour Members. weak economy, but the fall still comes none the less. Measures such as waiving the first £5,000 of national 6.39 pm insurance contributions for the first 10 employees in a Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The hon. Member small business—alas not in London, the south-east and for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) was true to his eastern regions, although I hope that the measure will word. His speech was fairly brief, but it could have been be extended—will be truly beneficial to businesses in a good deal briefer, because he completely failed to Daventry. The 1% reduction in small companies tax understand that the Bill is simply a return to the ideological represents a 2% cut in real terms because the Labour and illogical Tory mistakes of the past. It reflects a party planned to raise it by 1%. The rise in the entrepreneur’s Budget that spoke throughout of the Tory obsession relief threshold to £5 million should ensure that most with public sector cuts and the mistaken belief that small business owners are not penalised heavily when public sector shrinkage automatically leads to private they come to sell their companies. sector growth. In fact, the Tory belief seems to be that I grew up in a small business environment, which is a our economy is balanced on a see-saw—that as soon as meritocratic place in which long hours and hard work the public sector goes down the private sector goes up, sometimes pay off. Most small businesses have been and vice versa. I speak as someone who for the past five looking at the public sector, with its pay, holidays and years has run a small business, and who for seven years pensions, with a growing sense of disbelief and occasional before that worked in the private sector for one of the anger. From talking to public sector workers, I know fastest-growing companies in the UK. that most of them, especially those who directly face the As an internet-based sports retailer from 2004 to the public, know that the Government need to better cut general election, I relied on customers from all four their cloth. They do not like the pay freeze, but they will corners of the country and every aspect of our diverse tolerate it because they know that it is targeted at those economy. I sold to businesses and to business people, earning more than £21,000 a year and that most people for sure, but I sold also to schools, school teachers, in the private sector have had no salary increase for a universities, armed forces teams and individuals, such long time. In fact, most understand as much as anyone as doctors, council workers and police officers. The else why the country is in such an economic position. VAT rise in the Bill would have taken 2.5% straight off They will do their bit to try to help us out of the mess the bottom line of my business and would inevitably that we are in. have led to higher prices; it would absolutely have had There seems to be only one group of people in to. It means not just higher prices for pensioners, the permanent denial about our position—they sit on the disabled and people on benefits, those who are already Labour Benches. I read yesterday that it was said of the likely to be struggling because of cuts to their housing Bourbons that they forgot nothing and learned nothing, benefits, but a double whammy—less money and higher and that could easily be said of Labour Members, given prices. the way in which they wrought havoc on our economy So far we have heard a great deal from the Con-Dem and the fact that they are in such denial. Government about the private sector’s role in the recovery, It was out of concern for Labour Members that I but more revealing has been what we have not heard. turned to my computer search engine to try to find We have not heard how the private sector will play a role them help. I typed in all the necessary symptoms and in reducing the large number of people who claim found an American website: debtdenial.com. The website sickness-related benefits when getting back to work; asks many questions, such as how cutting manufacturing allowances to fund a “Do you only pay the required minimum” corporation tax cut that will help businesses only in on your accounts to avoid interest payments? The previous January 2013 at the earliest is going to help our Government did not even manage to do that because manufacturing industries and help us to grow our way our debt was constantly spiralling. The website also out of recession; or how the retail sector will contribute asks: to our growth when the Government’s policies will take money out of customers’ pockets. “Do you know or have a ballpark figure about how much you owe?” I know the impact that those measures could have, The Labour Government might have known once or because if the Government take money out of the twice, but not on an ongoing basis. The website asks pockets of people, particularly the poor and public whether people are sector workers, they take it out of the private sector, too. They take it out of the pockets of the shop owner “Afraid to apply for a loan because you don’t want to hear that who would have sold a teacher a new television; they you’re ‘overextended’”— take it out of the pocket of the plumber who would that would definitely apply to Labour Members. It says: have fitted a new bathroom for a social worker who, “If any of these apply to you, you may be in Debt Denial.” now, does not have the confidence to make that purchase; 229 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 230 and they take it out of the pocket of the double glazing The measures that the Labour Government took are firm that was about to install a new conservatory at a working. The predictions that the current shadow doctor’s house. The idea that the private sector will Chancellor made in his last Budget were, if anything, flourish because of this Bill is ludicrous. pessimistic. The borrowing requirement is down by The economy is not out of the woods. The Bill stifles £8 billion and there was a Government underspend of growth, it is bad for business and it is bad for those who £5 billion. That is why even right-wing analysts such as rely on the public services. The Government got the Fraser Nelson of The Spectator have been forced to answer wrong not only by failing to understand the admit that the Office for Budget Responsibility did not impact on the private sector of the cuts in public sector demonstrate that measures in the Budget were inevitable, spending, but on every level with their decisions on and, as Tory Members have admitted before, that it is taxation and investment. Tory Members have admitted an ideological Bill which reflects the warped view of life that this is an ideological Budget, rooted in Thatcher’s held by so many Government Members who have never economic catastrophes. The Budget means that huge had to struggle for anything in their lives—many of global banks will pay less tax, while the very poorest them millionaires the day they were born. Their first people in our society—benefit recipients and pensioners— reaction to a crisis made in the City is to put social will be worse off. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury workers, school teachers, special needs assistants and was unable to provide me with any way in which the Bill carers on the dole; to tell people to put on a thicker will compensate pensioners, the unemployed or those jumper and holiday in this country; to cut the value of who do not have children for the fact that, under the VAT the money in people’s pockets and introduce an arbitrary rise, they will pay hundreds of pounds more a year. tax that will hit the poorest hardest; and to do nothing— To hear the Conservative party propose such measures absolutely nothing—to create the jobs that might help is no surprise. Conservatives have always set out to the poor to work their way out of poverty. protect privilege and wealth, as anyone who has ever 6.47 pm studied history will know. It is what they have always done, and that is why the hon. Member for Bermondsey Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I shall keep my and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said: remarks brief and discuss clause 1 in relation to corporation “I have always been concerned that Conservatives first look tax. after their own and have presided over widening inequalities and There are many pockets of deprivation in Dover and not a more just society.” Deal, and the rise in child poverty during the previous That is what he has always said. Once I held out hope Parliament was a serious concern, as was the widening for the Liberal Democrats, but hearing them suddenly of the gap between the richest and the least well-off. claim that VAT is a progressive tax, that we need dramatic The abolition of the 10p rate hurt and upset many of cuts now and that we should not be too harsh on the my constituents, so the rise in income tax personal bankers, it is as if the recent general election was so allowance is extremely welcome, but what we need to painful for them that they cannot bear to remember do, as has been much discussed today, is to increase the what they spent a month arguing. nation’s trend growth rate. The Tory cuts philosophy was the wrong decision at On that point, I particularly welcome the reduction the wrong time, but even if we accepted that their cuts in corporation tax to what will be 24p by the end of this programme had to go faster and further than they had Parliament. That is incredibly important, because business, ever let on during the election, and even if we believed particularly international business, is very mobile and that Labour’s responsible deficit reduction programme can set up anywhere. WPP, for example, has gone off to for halving the deficit in four years was not enough, we Dublin, and that should concern every Member, because would find that the decisions in the Bill still do not the Exchequer is going to lose about £240 million in make sense. corporation tax receipts every year. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury argued that If we are to compete with centres in the European the Government had been left without a choice, but, as time zone, it is important also that we consider how to my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) build in a participation exemption, as the Netherlands revealed, there were alternatives. The capital gains tax and Luxembourg have, and as Ireland and Switzerland rise was less than half that promised in the Liberal have in effective forms. We need to draw international Democrat manifesto, and corporation tax was already business into the UK, because that is a critical path at its lowest point for a long time and 5% less than it towards expanding the amount of jobs and money that was in 1996-97. If there are tough decisions to be taken, we have. and ordinary people and so many good businesses are I make one brief plea. Reducing the corporation tax struggling so badly, why choose to make life even more rate to 24p by the end of the Parliament is welcome, prosperous for those businesses that are already flourishing but, if we are to make a step change, reducing it to 19p and, in some cases, contributing very little to growth?. would, in my respectful submission, be transformational. The previous Labour Government were securing growth It would draw in international business and, ironically, to protect hard-pressed people against losing their homes, raise corporation tax revenues. That is the international and when we realise that in this recession about 30,000 evidence, and that is the short and simple case that I put fewer people lost their homes than did so in past Tory to the Treasury team—to consider going further, harder recessions, we see just how easily the Tories would have and deeper in future. cut people adrift. When we see that 500,000 fewer people lost their jobs than would have done so if we had 6.49 pm followed Tory advice, we know that throughout this Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I never cease to country there are people who can walk into work with be surprised by some of the speeches from the Labour their heads held high, knowing that when the crisis Benches. Some could have been made had the Labour struck they had a Government who said, “Yes, we care.” party won the last election, because much of what our 231 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 232
[Margot James] and private sectors, which this country has long needed irrespective of the conditions in which we now find Government are doing would have to have been done ourselves. whichever party had got in. Labour Members’ wholesale opposition to cuts and every single tax increase that has Toby Perkins: The hon. Lady mentioned the prescience been forced on us is nothing short of astonishing. A of the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) BBC journalist to whom I was speaking over the weekend and has commented on the size of the debt and how we had interviewed all five contenders for the Labour got into this position. Will she also acknowledge that leadership contest and only one had had the courage to right up until 2008, before she came to the House, her admit that the public sector was simply too large and party was arguing not for less but for more public unaffordable. We are merely doing what has to be done. spending in a raft of areas? The Labour party proposed spending cuts before the Margot James: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman election; that is well known. It postponed the spending intervened because I cannot understand why that point review until after the election, but it was planning keeps being made by Labour Members. I fought the 50% reductions in the capital budget and 20% reductions 2005 general election and our party’s policy was clear: in revenue. However, it would not say where the cuts we would share the proceeds of growth. We were not were coming from. Does it not concern Labour Members advocating spending at the same rate as the Labour that they are so isolated? The OECD, the G20, the party did when in government; yes, we were arguing for Governor of the Bank of England and even past Ministers increases, but at a significantly lower rate than was from their own Government are acknowledging that happening under the Labour party. I should like to put this Budget is a good one in the circumstances. If they that on the record. are not concerned by what those global organisations I return to my theme that this Budget does a great and City opinion leaders think of our Budget, will they public service in restoring the private sector as the be concerned about what the average man and woman driver of the growth that will get the country out of the in the street thinks of it? mess that has been left to us to sort out. I want to The people whom I represent in Stourbridge, in the commend a few of the key features of the Bill. The black country, have had to make cutbacks in their reduction in corporation tax to 20% for small and personal expenditure, as families and individuals, for a medium-sized businesses and the longer-term reduction long time. They have had to prioritise the paying off of for larger businesses are key. There is also the Work their own debt as individuals. The small businesses for programme, which is about making work pay. We need which they work have had to pull their horns in. In the to make sure that those who can work have the opportunity past two years, companies in my constituency have seen to do so—indeed, they must. their order books fall by 50%. How can they manage There are 50,000 more apprenticeship places and the such a reduction without resorting to the sort of cuts in national insurance holiday for new companies, which their own expenditure that our Government are now do not have to pay any national insurance whatever for courageously proposing as part of the Finance Bill? the first 10 employees. Furthermore, the Government The public know that the situation cannot go on. The have abandoned the Labour party’s dangerous plan to shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury was right to say levy an additional rate of employers’ national insurance that some of the problems were brought about by the and there has been a £250 million increase in the enterprise banking crisis that precipitated the global recession. growth fund, meaning that medium-sized companies in But the public also know that this country was the least this country have access to more credit. Those measures prepared on entering that recession. From 2001, the will restore the private sector. Painful measures that we former Prime Minister, as Chancellor, started upping are obliged to place on the public sector—with the full the ante and increasing spending year on year without support, I believe, of the public—will be more than relief. During the years of growth, he made no provision made up for by the recovery of the private sector, for rainier days. because, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility’s projections, employment will rise year on year. I know Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): My hon. Friend that Labour Members are sceptical about that, but I may be interested to learn about what happened when believe in British industry and think that our private we sat on the Opposition Benches on the other side of sector, including all the small companies in my constituency, the Chamber. Our right hon. Friend the Secretary of is ready for the challenge. We have at last liberated it so State for Business, Innovation and Skills, as Lib Dem that it can take up the challenge. I have every confidence shadow Chancellor, warned the former Chancellor of that through the recovery of the private sector, the the Exchequer about the credit bubble being built up, country will prosper once again. but he was jeered and hooted at by Labour MPs, who 6.57 pm were on this side of the Chamber at that time. Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): We have had an interesting debate on the Third Reading of the Finance Margot James: I thank my hon. Friend for giving me Bill, although it has gone over a lot of old ground, with the benefit of some of the history of the House before I no surprising new positions taken on either side. The was a Member. Many of the opinions of the Secretary Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury claimed again that of State were indeed prescient. What my hon. Friend the Budget is progressive—a claim that I shall dispute has added to the debate is truly shocking. soon. The hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew The public sector is clearly unaffordable. The restructuring Hancock), who is not in his place, set up a straw man to has been inevitable; there has been no choice on our knock down and will come to realise that literature side as far as that is concerned. Yes, we will try to make reviews do not translate into effective speeches. The a virtue of a necessity and seek to rebalance the public hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) paraded his 233 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 234 conscience around the Chamber again but told us, We see in this Finance Bill that the Tory-led Government unsurprisingly, that he would be supporting the Budget have made precisely that error with their deliberate, after all, even though he admitted that it was regressive. ideologically driven choice to go for a much more People will note his crocodile tears. In the usual way, the aggressive and reckless slash-and-burn strategy for public speeches made by the hon. Members for Daventry spending than the objective economic conditions, or (Chris Heaton-Harris) for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) even the bond markets themselves, required. The decision and for Stourbridge (Margot James) supported their to opt for a balanced budget in four years is driven not side of the House. by the objective economic conditions but by an ideologically I commend the speech made by my hon. Friend the driven political belief in a small state, a belief which is Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), who put before now apparently shared by the Liberal Democrats. Similarly, the House the real cost increases for women—especially the decision to cut the deficit by imposing a 77% to those with young children—under the Finance Bill. 23% ratio of public spending cuts to tax rises is a choice That seemed to prompt much hilarity among Government driven not by the objective economic conditions but by Members, which I thought revealed more about their the same belief in a small state apparently shared by the attitudes than about her concerns. She also mentioned Liberal Democrats. It is a ratio of pain never before the housing benefit and disability benefit changes outlined achieved in the UK, and it was not shared with the in the Red Book, and many millions of vulnerable voters before the election. No mandate for this was people will be worried about those as the spending established in the general election. Ministers have admitted review approaches. that the cuts will be painful, but they have failed to My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham acknowledge the scale of the pain that they have chosen (Mr Umunna) made an extremely good speech and put to inflict. The apparent relish with which they choose to some facts about recent economic history on the record announce huge and ongoing cuts does them no credit and my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby whatsoever, and it will be seared into the memories of Perkins) pointed out the fallacy of private sector see-saws the millions of victims of their sadistic fiscal policy for suddenly moving in to take over the spaces that the years to come. public sector has vacated. Such things are such an The propaganda techniques are chilling. Carefully important part of the ideology of the Government. The chosen, extreme examples of excess in public expenditure hon. Member for Stourbridge at least did the decent are leaked by the Government to sympathetic tabloids thing by recognising that there had been a global recession, to be highlighted in screaming headlines and make the but she said that we were not prepared for it, although case for more cuts. Government websites coarsen the she knows that net Government debt before the credit debate still further by parading a stream of ignorant crunch was the second lowest in the G7. vitriol whipped up by sensationalist reporting, so it is The Finance Bill puts into place a Budget strategy suggested that workhouses are to be reopened, benefit that is a huge gamble with the future prosperity of claimants sterilised, and immigrants deported. If this is Britain. The Chancellor began by telling us that it was the nice face of the Tory party, then God help us, and an emergency—that it was the “unavoidable Budget”. shame on the Liberal Democrats for going along with He has tried throughout this process to persuade the it. The apocalyptic and absurd scares that they have country of two things: first, that Labour somehow issued about the UK economy resembling that of created the deficit all on its own; and secondly, that the Greece—we heard it again today—have been not only only solution is to cut it further and faster than our plan fundamentally wrong but deeply irresponsible, and they to halve it over the lifetime of this Parliament would have risked precipitating the very loss of confidence have done. they purport to avoid. Neither of those assertions is true, and here is why. This Finance Bill signals the biggest and most sustained Extraordinarily, Ministers and Government Members, public spending cuts in UK peacetime history, coupled from the Chancellor on down, have failed to let the with increases in taxes such as VAT that will directly words “credit crunch” so much as pass their lips during take demand out of the economy just when recovery is the entire proceedings on the Bill. The attempt to rewrite fragile and still needs nurturing. That is why it is such a recent economic history is one that George Orwell’s Big gamble. Labour Members are not the only ones who are Brother would have recognised and admired. The fact is deeply worried about the choices that have been made that the banking crisis, which started in the American in the Bill. Following the Chancellor’s “austerity Budget”, sub-prime mortgage market, caused the biggest global the International Monetary Fund has just cut its growth contraction that we have experienced in the real economy forecast for the UK for both this year and the next. The since the Wall street crash in 1929 turned into the great OECD has criticised the decision to abolish the future depression and led directly to the outbreak of the fobs fund and other employment support packages as second world war. Since they will never say it, let me short-sighted and warned that the scale of job cuts in reiterate that this crisis was not caused by the irresponsible the public sector will slow down the recovery. public spending of Governments but by the greed and criminal recklessness of the banking and financial sector. As a direct result of the June Budget and this Finance Any analysis of current conditions that ignores that Bill, the now notoriously named Office for Budget basic and obvious fact, even if only for the purpose of Responsibility has had to revise upwards its estimates generating convenient political propaganda, risks a of job losses in the public sector. At the same time, it dangerous miscalculation of the appropriate remedy. has revised downwards its growth forecasts and hoped no one would notice that it excluded 550,000 people Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con) rose— who work in state-owned enterprises from being in Ms Eagle: I will not give way because the hon. public sector employment, even though the Office for Gentleman has not been here for the entire debate; if he National Statistics classifies them as such: thus public had been, I would have done. sector job losses are likely to be even higher. The OBR’s 235 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 236
[Ms Angela Eagle] be raised from women and children, with only £2 billion being raised from men. Like Flashman in a tight spot, prediction that the anticipated “recovery” will generate the Chancellor has chosen to put women and children 2 million extra jobs in the private sector in just five years first. He has put them first in the firing line, bearing the has caused widespread incredulity, because that target brunt of his tax rises and spending cuts. has never been achieved in the modern era. It has This Finance Bill takes a huge gamble with our still certainly never been achieved at a time when huge fragile economic recovery. It gambles that a vicious public spending cuts are likely to dampen employment bout of self-inflicted austerity will not tip us back into a prospects in the private sector and austerity measures recession or a long period of low growth, and that we are being imposed simultaneously in almost every developed will be able to export our way into growth at a time economy in the world. when a globally synchronised austerity signals otherwise. Kelvin Hopkins: Exactly the same predictions were It is regressive, threatens social cohesion and hits the made about unemployment falling because of the poorest hardest, and we cannot support it. 1979 Budget—in fact, it went up to 3 million. 7.10 pm Ms Eagle: People should learn from their economic The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine history; I only wish that this Government would. Greening): I think we have— The OBR’s heroic assumptions about export growth and business investment also strain credibility, but Sir Alan Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Will the Minister give Budd will not be around for much longer to defend his way? forecasts, whatever happens in the real world. One thing Justine Greening: No, I will not. is clear: we cannot all export ourselves out of trouble at We have just heard from the shadow Minister that the the same time. Because world trade has been so badly Opposition are still in denial, and I shall come to that impacted by the global credit crunch, the UK has later. Before we conclude what has been a lengthy experienced a 25% devaluation of its currency without debate over the past few weeks, I wish to echo the earlier any noticeable upturn in export performance. Prime comments of my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary. ministerial trips to China accompanied by huge cuts in Hon. Members throughout the House have played an Government support for new industrial activity in the essential role in scrutinising the Bill, and I thank them UK do not seem to be the right response to this challenge. all for doing so. The Finance Bill contains no strategy for growth, yet growth is the best way of dealing with any deficit. In Today we heard from the shadow Chief Secretary—the place of a growth strategy, we see a pious, dogmatic man who admitted that there was no money left—and belief—often restated today—that the private sector from my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk will miraculously spring to life and fill every space (Matthew Hancock), who successfully demolished the vacated by the Government. This is in the teeth of Opposition’s case for failing to take any action to sort massive private sector deleveraging, damaged confidence out the deficit. We heard from a number of Opposition and an ongoing lack of affordable bank lending. The Members, including the hon. Members for Wakefield huge hike in VAT will damage demand at a crucial (Mary Creagh), for Streatham (Mr Umunna) and for moment. This is an example of blind economic faith—it Chesterfield (Toby Perkins). I listened to what they had is not a serious growth strategy. The Bill contains no to say with great interest, and in many cases they hint of an alternative if this blind economic faith turns violently agreed that we are in a serious situation that out to be misplaced. There is no fallback position if the needs to be sorted out. What we failed to get from any economic gamble that the Chancellor has outlined starts of them, however, was any kind of alternative. That to go wrong. How high will unemployment have to rise thread has run through not just today’s debate but the before the Chancellor looks again? Why, once more, is debates over the past few weeks. unemployment a price worth paying? We heard an important contribution from the hon. Finally, I want to look at who is paying for the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), who throughout measures contained in the Finance Bill. The Chancellor our debates has talked about his concerns about some has repeatedly asserted, “We’re all in this together”, but aspects of the Bill. However, he has recognised that we we have to judge him by his actions rather than fine have to take serious steps to sort out the fiscal deficit. words, and his assertion of social solidarity turns out to We also heard from my hon. Friends the Members for be a cruel joke. The Finance Bill and Budget measures Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), for Dover (Charlie are regressive, not progressive. They hit the poorest Elphicke) and for Stourbridge (Margot James), who all hardest. The VAT hike is the regressive centrepiece of a want a Government who face up to the challenge, as do regressive budget. The stealth move from retail price their constituents. indexation to consumer price indexation for all benefits The Bill provides for many of the key measures in the and all pensions takes £6 billion in savings from the emergency Budget, which was needed to address the poorest and most vulnerable and gives at least £50 billion, fiscal crisis that we face in our country and get Britain and possibly £100 billion, to employer pension schemes, growing. Although it was tough, it needed to be, and at the risk of employee representatives. The losses mount was, fair. When we came into government, we had to set year on year, for ever into the future. up the Office for Budget Responsibility to get, finally, Analysis has shown that the Budget takes a massive an independent review of the books. That review showed 21.7% of income from the bottom 10% of the income that the books were perhaps even worse than the former distribution and a mere 3.6% from the top 10%. My Chief Secretary had said. right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Clive Efford: Will the Minister give way? Work and Pensions has shown that of the £8 billion net revenue raised by the measures before us, £6 billion will Justine Greening: No, I will not. 237 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 238
The OBR said that the deficit was £12 billion larger benefit system that will protect the most vulnerable than had previously been suggested, so our priority was people in our society, increasing child tax credits and to tackle that deficit. Although reductions in public introducing a set of measures that, despite a tough sector spending will be necessary to ensure that it is at a Budget, will leave child poverty unchanged. level affordable to the public, taxes clearly have to play We know that we need to take that action, because their part as well. As we have heard, even from the hon. the Labour party has absolutely no alternative. We have Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), growth in employment debated the Budget long enough now for Labour Members must be led by the private sector. Reducing incentives to to have brought forward an alternative if they had one, employers, as the previous Government would have but they clearly do not. We have been honest and open done by introducing the jobs tax and raising small about the problems that our country faces. companies’ corporation tax rates, would have reduced incentives and led to our economy languishing for Clive Efford: Will the Minister give way? longer and longer, and debt building up. Justine Greening: That is what the voters expect, and Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Is the Minister what they—[HON.MEMBERS: “Give way!”] Oh, I will aware, though, that the Financial Times published research give way. last month showing that 1.2 million jobs in the private sector rely on the public spending that she is going to cut? Clive Efford: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, but will she accept this one point? Throughout the debate her party has argued that the state is too big. Everyone Justine Greening: That is typical of the contributions accepts that the Budget will cut the size of the state so that we have had from Opposition Members all the way that in six years, it will be smaller as a proportion of through our debates. The hon. Gentleman’s party went GDP than it was in 1997. Does that not suggest that it is into the election having passed its Fiscal Responsibility an ideological move, and on that basis does she not Act 2010, which set out 20% cuts. That means one of accept that if the Tories had been elected in 1997, they three things. Either Labour Members had no intention would have come in cutting? of ever reducing or tackling the deficit, in which case the Act was gross duplicity; or they went into the election standing on a platform of cuts with no idea Justine Greening: What is too big is the deficit. That is whatever of how to deliver them, in which case it was what we need to sort out. As I have said, the hon. gross incompetence; or they knew what they wanted to Gentleman’s party itself recognised the need to cut do but still, in spite of all the hours of debate, fail public expenditure, which has to be at an affordable to admit to any of the measures that they were planning level. to take, in which case it is gross concealment. We need While we have sought to engage the public in the take no lectures from the hon. Gentleman. debate about how we can recover from the economic crisis, rebalance our economy and rehabilitate ourselves Clive Efford: Will the Minister give way? from debt-driven policies, all that we have heard from the Opposition is what they do not like, and nothing Justine Greening: No, I will not. There was a time about what they would do instead. They have said no to when the Labour party had something relevant to say everything and yes to nothing, and they have kept on the economy; that time has now passed. quiet when asked how they would solve the problems that they have caused. It was one party that got us into What we need to do is to ensure that companies in this mess, and now two parties will have to get us out this country and across the world know that Britain is of it. open for business. That is why the centrepiece of the Budget was providing a springboard for a private sector-led We have heard a lot of analogies today, but to my recovery to take place by reducing the rate of corporation mind the Opposition are in denial: they are like a debt tax year on year over the next four years; reducing the junkie. Like most junkies and addicts, they always want small profits rate of corporation tax, benefiting 850,000 to solve the problem tomorrow. They want a reduction companies; and of course taking difficult decisions on in the deficit tomorrow, growth in the private sector capital gains tax changes that will mean increases for tomorrow, and fairness for those most in need tomorrow. higher rate tax payers while protecting entrepreneurship. We were never going to see any action from the Labour The Budget was welcomed by business across the board, party, and over the course of this Budget debate we and it is important to bear that in mind when Opposition have heard shrill voices of despair from the Opposition Members say that they do not believe that it will ultimately Benches. boost jobs. We have taken decisions that are right for this country— Although we wanted to help business succeed, we tackling our debt, kick-starting the private sector and also recognised the importance of protecting those most taking action to take those on the lowest incomes out of in need, and the Budget did just that. From April 2011, income tax. Those choices are the right ones to start our we are increasing the personal allowance, removing country back on a credible path to sustainable recovery. almost 1 million people from income tax. On pensions, We are encouraging enterprise and protecting those we are taking the power to repeal the pensions tax most in need, yet tackling the colossal debt left to us regime introduced in the Finance Act 2010, which will and to this country. This coalition Government are allow us to bring in a fairer arrangement that will not making decisions where Opposition Members did not allow the very rich to benefit from basic rate tax relief. have the courage, and I commend the Bill to the House. We are re-establishing the earnings link for the state Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third pension with a triple guarantee, making changes to the time. 239 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 240
The House divided: Ayes 322, Noes 242. Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Division No. 32] [7.19 pm Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Hoban, Mr Mark Mundell, rh David Hollingbery, George Munt, Tessa AYES Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Adams, Nigel Davies, Philip Holloway, Mr Adam Murrison, Dr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Davis, rh Mr David Hopkins, Kris Neill, Robert Aldous, Peter de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Newmark, Mr Brooks Alexander, rh Danny Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Newton, Sarah Amess, Mr David Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, Simon Nokes, Caroline Andrew, Stuart Dorries, Nadine Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Norman, Jesse Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Bacon, Mr Richard Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Bagshawe, Ms Louise Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Baker, Norman Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Baker, Steve Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Osborne, rh Mr George Baldry, Tony Ellis, Michael Javid, Sajid Ottaway, Richard Baldwin, Harriett Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paice, Mr James Barclay, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Barker, Gregory Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Patel, Priti Baron, Mr John Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Barwell, Gavin Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Bebb, Guto Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, Mike Beith, rh Sir Alan Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Benyon, Richard Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Berry, Jake Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillips, Stephen Bingham, Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Binley, Mr Brian Foster, Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Birtwistle, Gordon Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Poulter, Dr Daniel Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Blackwood, Nicola Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Pugh, Dr John Blunt, Mr Crispin Fullbrook, Lorraine Leadsom, Andrea Raab, Mr Dominic Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Randall, rh Mr John Bone, Mr Peter Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Reckless, Mark Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Brady, Mr Graham Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brake, Tom George, Andrew Leslie, Charlotte Reevell, Simon Bray, Angie Gibb, Mr Nick Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reid, Mr Alan Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Brandon Robathan, Mr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Hugh Brine, Mr Steve Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Brokenshire, James Goldsmith, Zac Lidington, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Bruce, rh Malcolm Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Russell, Bob Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Burley, Mr Aidan Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Sanders, Mr Adrian Burns, Conor Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Sandys, Laura Burns, Mr Simon Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Scott, Mr Lee Burrowes, Mr David Greening, Justine Macleod, Mary Selous, Andrew Burt, Lorely Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Byles, Dan Griffiths, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Cairns, Alun Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Mr Richard Carmichael, Mr Alistair Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Cash, Mr William Hammond, rh Mr Philip McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Chope, Mr Christopher Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Collins, Damian Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Colvile, Oliver Harvey, Nick Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Cox, Mr Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Crockart, Mike Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Davey, Mr Edward Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Stewart, Iain (Monmouth) Hemming, John Morris, James Stewart, Rory 241 Finance Bill20 JULY 2010 Finance Bill 242
Streeter, Mr Gary Wallace, Mr Ben Godsiff, Mr Roger Michael, rh Alun Stride, Mel Ward, Mr David Goggins, rh Paul Miller, Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Watkinson, Angela Goodman, Helen Mitchell, Austin Stunell, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Sturdy, Julian Webb, Steve Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme Swales, Ian Wharton, James Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. Swayne, Mr Desmond Wheeler, Heather Hain, rh Mr Peter Mudie, Mr George Swinson, Jo White, Chris Hamilton, Mr Fabian Munn, Meg Swire, Mr Hugo Whittaker, Craig Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Syms, Mr Robert Whittingdale, Mr John Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Paul Tapsell, Sir Peter Wiggin, Bill Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Thurso, John Willetts, rh Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Timpson, Mr Edward Williams, Stephen Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Tomlinson, Justin Williamson, Gavin Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Tredinnick, David Wilson, Mr Rob Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Truss, Elizabeth Wollaston, Dr Sarah Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Turner, Mr Andrew Wright, Jeremy Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Hilling, Julie Paisley, Ian Uppal, Paul Yeo, Mr Tim Hodge, rh Margaret Pearce, Teresa Vaizey, Mr Edward Young, rh Sir George Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Perkins, Toby Vara, Mr Shailesh Zahawi, Nadhim Hoey, Kate Phillipson, Bridget Vickers, Martin Tellers for the Ayes: Hopkins, Kelvin Pound, Stephen Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Stephen Crabb and Hosie, Stewart Qureshi, Yasmin Walker, Mr Charles Norman Lamb Howarth, rh Mr George Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Hunt, Tristram Reeves, Rachel Illsley, Mr Eric Reynolds, Emma NOES Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Abbott, Ms Diane Creasy, Stella Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, Angus Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cryer, John Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Alex Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Ali, Rushanara Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, Diana R. Rotheram, Steve Allen, Mr Graham Curran, Margaret Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank Anderson, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Austin, Ian Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Bain, Mr William David, Mr Wayne Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Joan Balls, rh Ed Davidson, Mr Ian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sarwar, Anas Banks, Gordon Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Barron, rh Mr Kevin De Piero, Gloria Keen, Alan Sharma, Mr Virendra Bayley, Hugh Denham, rh Mr John Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Beckett, rh Margaret Dobbin, Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Begg, Miss Anne Dobson, rh Frank Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Bell, Sir Stuart Docherty, Thomas Lavery, Ian Simpson, David Benn, rh Hilary Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Berger, Luciana Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Betts, Mr Clive Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blackman-Woods, Roberta Doran, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Smith, Angela (Penistone and Blears, rh Hazel Dowd, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Stocksbridge) Blenkinsop, Tom Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Smith, Nick Blomfield, Paul Dugher, Michael Lucas, Ian Smith, Owen Blunkett, rh Mr David Durkan, Mark MacShane, rh Mr Denis Soulsby, Sir Peter Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Eagle, Ms Angela Mactaggart, Fiona Spellar, rh Mr John Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Maria Mahmood, Mr Khalid Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Shabana Stringer, Graham Brown, Mr Russell Efford, Clive Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Bryant, Chris Elliott, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Thornberry, Emily Buck, Ms Karen Ellman, Mrs Louise McCabe, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Burden, Richard Engel, Natascha McCann, Mr Michael Trickett, Jon Byrne, rh Mr Liam Evans, Chris McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Alan Farrelly, Paul McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Gregory Field, rh Mr Frank McCrea, Dr William Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain Umunna, Mr Chuka Caton, Martin Flello, Robert McDonnell, John Vaz, Valerie Clark, Katy Flint, rh Caroline McFadden, rh Mr Pat Walley, Joan Clwyd, rh Ann Flynn, Paul McGovern, Alison Watts, Mr Dave Coaker, Vernon Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim Weir, Mr Mike Coffey, Ann Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Whitehead, Dr Alan Cooper, Rosie Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Wicks, rh Malcolm Cooper, rh Yvette Gardiner, Barry McKinnell, Catherine Williams, Hywel Corbyn, Jeremy Gilmore, Sheila Meacher, rh Mr Michael Williamson, Chris Crausby, Mr David Glass, Pat Meale, Mr Alan Wilson, Phil Creagh, Mary Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Wilson, Sammy 243 Finance Bill 20 JULY 2010 244
Winnick, Mr David Woolas, Mr Phil Backbench Business Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wright, David Wishart, Pete Wright, Mr Iain [1ST ALLOTTED DAY—FIRST HALF] Wood, Mike Tellers for the Noes: Woodcock, John Mark Tami and Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Lyn Brown Information for Backbenchers on Statements Question accordingly agreed to. Bill read the Third time and passed. 7.34 pm Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I beg to Business without Debate move, That this House commends the Speaker on the action he has DELEGATED LEGISLATION taken over the past year to reassert the principle that Ministers ought to make statements to the House before they are made Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing elsewhere; notes that paragraph 9.1 of the Ministerial Code says Order No. 118(6)), that when Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance in SEA FISHERIES Parliament; believes that compliance with this principle is essential for backbenchers to be able to represent the interests of their That the Fishing Boats (Electronic Transmission of Fishing constituents and hold the Government to account; and invites the Activities Data) (England) (Scheme) 2010 (S.I., 2010, No. 1600), Procedure Committee to consider how the rules of the House dated 14 June 2010, a copy of which was laid before this House on could be better used or, if necessary, changed to ensure compliance 16 June, be approved.—(Bill Wiggin.) with this principle and to develop a protocol for the release of Question agreed to. information. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing It is a rare privilege and honour for me to open this, Order No. 118(6)) the first of the Backbench Business Committee debates on the Floor of the House. We are honoured by your INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND presence in the Chair this evening, Mr. Speaker. In this That the draft International Monetary Fund (Limit on Lending) motion we do some important things. First, we commend Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 23 June, be you for the action that you have taken in ensuring that approved.—(Bill Wiggin.) the Government get the message that important policy Question agreed to. announcements should be made to Members of this Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing House first and not to the wider media. In the motion, Order No. 118(6)), we draw attention to paragraph 9.1 of the ministerial code, which says exactly that. It says: “when Parliament is in session, the most important announcements DANGEROUS DRUGS of Government policy should be made in the first instance in That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment No. 2) Parliament”. Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 12 July, be approved. —(Bill Wiggin.) It also says that we believe that compliance with this principle is essential for Back Benchers to be able to Question agreed to. best represent the interests of our constituents and hold the Government of the day to account. Constructively, we suggest that the Procedure Committee—I see the Chairman in his place—be invited to consider how the rules of the House could be better used, and if necessary changed, to ensure compliance with this principle and to develop a protocol for the release of information. The Chamber of the House of Commons should be the centre of political public life in our country. It should not be an inconvenience for Ministers to come here and tell the country about important policy: it should be an honour and privilege to keep the information to themselves until they have told Members of this House. It should be a matter of professional pride, so to speak, that information is not put out into the wider ether until the representatives of the people are told first, in this Chamber. This is not a criticism only of the present Government, but a criticism of all Governments, Labour, Conservative and coalition, going back for some time. The purpose of the motion tonight is not only to make the point that this Chamber should be considered first and foremost in the minds of Ministers, but to be helpful to the Government so that the coalition sets a precedent by putting in place a set of procedures that will avoid the confusion that has obtained down the ages and, worryingly, has already been seen in the 245 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 246 Statements Statements present Session. We need to get the system right to help Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Does the hon. all of us to represent the concerns of our constituents Gentleman think that members of the Government better. who have leaked or given such information before the House has been informed were weak, or does he think that there has been a Government strategy to bring it Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does my about? hon. Friend agree that the problem has worsened with the advent of 24-hour news? Mr Hollobone: It is probably both, to be fair. I am not Mr Hollobone: I am most grateful for the helpful moving this motion in a politically partisan way; I am intervention from my right hon. Friend, the distinguished moving it on behalf of my colleagues on the Backbench Chairman of the Procedure Committee. There are many Business Committee and all Back-Bench Members, benefits of 24-hour news coverage, although accuracy is whatever parties they represent, in order to hold the not necessarily one of them—nor is undue pressure on people on the Front Bench to account for their behaviour. Ministers to release information before the House is As a Back-Bench Member, I do not particularly care told. But that is no excuse for Ministers to fail to resist whether they are Conservative, coalition or Labour the temptation to get their message out before telling Ministers. Their first duty should be to report their new the House. I agree that it is an additional pressure, but it policy announcements on the Floor of the Chamber. should not be an excuse. The early release of information is not confined to John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman the broadcast media age. In fact, we can go back to the says he is speaking on behalf of all of us, so why is the infamous incident on 13 November 1947, when the then motion pussyfooting around so much by referring the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Hugh Dalton, resigned a matter to another Committee? Why not propose that few hours after what he described as “a grave indiscretion” such Ministers be suspended? When the ceiling can take on his part. Some Members might not be familiar with it, let us have these people suspended. this infamous case, so perhaps I can indulge the House for a moment by reminding them. There was the following Mr Hollobone: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s exchange on the Floor of the Chamber: Mr Raikes point. I would say in answer to his question that it is a raised a private notice question, which was the procedure sensible way forward for the Procedure Committee to in those days, and take evidence from hon. Members, and I suspect that he will be the first in the queue. The Chair of the Procedure “asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the accurate forecast of the Budget proposals in a newspaper on Committee is here tonight to hear contributions from sale at 3.45 p.m. yesterday, a copy of which has been sent to him, hon. Members. We can develop a sensible protocol that and if he will institute an inquiry into the source of the information.” everyone can understand, including Ministers of Crown, Very humbly, Mr Dalton, the Chancellor at the time, and we can find a better way forward. I also say to him told the House: that the motion has been sitting on the Order Paper for some time, and if he had wanted to table an amendment, “I very much regret to tell the House that the publication to which the hon. Member refers arose out of an incident which he would have been quite within his rights to do so. occurred as I was entering the Chamber to make my speech yesterday.In reply to questions put to me by the Lobby correspondent Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman of the “Star” newspaper, I indicated to him the subject matter is making an excellent case, and I welcome how he is contained in the publication in question. I appreciate that this was standing above party politics in order to do it. He a grave indiscretion on my part, for which I offer my deep mentioned the advent of 24-hour news. Does he similarly apologies to the House.”—[Official Report, 13 November 1947; deprecate the fact that for once the news galleries in this Vol. 444, c. 551.] place are empty? There seems to be no appetite in the A few hours later, The Times reported Hugh Dalton’s media for what the Chamber is trying to do in asserting resignation letter to the Prime Minister, in which Hugh the power of Parliament back over an overweening Dalton wrote: Executive. “In view of the incident which was raised to-day in the House, I think my duty to offer you my resignation”. Mr Hollobone: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): That is a helpful intervention, although actually it was my right very interesting historical episode, and I thank the hon. hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), Gentleman for telling us about it, but on that basis, has the Chair of the Procedure Committee, who made the he worked out how many current Ministers would have point about 24-hour news media. However, the point had to resign? made by the hon. Gentleman was spot on. The thrust of this motion, and the reason the Backbench Business Mr Hollobone: That is an extremely good point, and Committee put it forward tonight, is that all-too-often the answer is: all of them—and most of the previous the Press Gallery is empty. Why is it empty? It is because Government as well. The basic point of my speech is they have generally heard about it all before we get to that standards have been going downhill since 13 November hear about it on the Floor of the House. 1947. Mr Dalton was clearly in the wrong, and he paid the ultimate political price, but what has been happening Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I since is that Ministers of the Crown, under Conservative, thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way—he is being Labour and coalition Governments, have been getting generous with his time. He says that he is representing away with it. The purpose of today’s motion, in praising all Back-Bench Members, but he will know that we in the Speaker for the steps he has taken, is to give the the minority parties have famously been disqualified House the opportunity to say, “Enough is enough. We from standing for the Backbench Business Committee. are going to do things differently in the future.” I know that he and his colleagues have looked at this 247 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 248 Statements Statements [Pete Wishart] minority parties and every other Back Bencher: whatever party they might represent—this goes for independent sympathetically, and the charming exercise by the Members too—they should come and tell the Committee Committee Chair, the hon. Member for North East what they would like to be discussed on the Floor of the Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), has persuaded us to come House. along this evening and participate in the debate. However, what does he have to say to me and the hon. Member John Mann: It is very kind of the hon. Gentleman to for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who is sitting next to me, that invite us all to the meetings, but we elect people to would encourage us to take a part in the Committee? represent us. If the Procedure Committee comes back with some wishy-washy, mealy-mouthed excuse of an Mr Hollobone: First, I agree that we have a charming answer to the question that has been put, how will the Committee Chair, and she has gone out of her way to Backbench Business Committee represent us all properly ensure that the minority parties are invited to the Committee and ensure that the issue that it has rightly raised is to give their point of view. Indeed, we received a properly voted on by the House? representation at a recent meeting to that effect. Certainly on behalf of the Chair I can say that the hon. Gentleman Mr Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman is talking about would be most welcome to attend at 7 o’clock on the a hypothetical case. Knowing the Chairman of the first Monday of the September sitting, upstairs in Procedure Committee as I do—my right hon. Friend Committee Room 16. We would be delighted to hear a the Member for East Yorkshire—I think that wishy-washy representation from him about what business he would is the last thing that any recommendation will be. I am like to include in a future Back-Bench business debate. also sure that you, Mr Speaker, will be taking a close interest in the work of the Procedure Committee and Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Does any motion that may come back to the House in due the hon. Gentleman not also need to recognise that the course, so I do not want the hon. Gentleman to be temptation that Ministers fall prey to is not merely the unduly worried about the process. desire to get on the news, but the desire to present a more limited and selective account of the statement John Mann: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, but they are subsequently going to make at a point when it the question of process is rather important. This is the cannot be questioned by Members who might know first opportunity for the Backbench Business Committee quite a lot about the subject and might be taken at face to try to have some influence, yet the issue is being value by sometimes gullible journalists? referred to another Committee of the House. We have seen this kind of thing before. If the Procedure Committee Mr Hollobone: My right hon. Friend is spot on. It is fails to come back with something sufficiently substantive, called spin. We in the House of Commons should be how will the Backbench Business Committee take the trying to un-spin things and ensuring that when statements issue forward? are made to the House and new policy initiatives announced, we have the opportunity to fire in those Mr Hollobone: I anticipate a substantive motion on questions. Actually, however, many of our constituents the Floor of the House in due course to endorse the are beginning to say, “What is the point of having principle that we have to hold the Government to Members of Parliament, if you can read all about it in account by having a proper procedure for statements. tomorrow’s newspapers?” The journalists are getting better access to Ministers about lots of policy Mr Knight: On the point that has just been raised, it announcements than we are in the House. is entirely hypothetical at this stage, but I would expect that if this evening’s motion goes ahead and the Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I would Procedure Committee makes recommendations, those like to make some observations as a new Back-Bench recommendations would come before the whole House. Member on the 24-hour media cycle. One of the things It would then be for the whole House to decide what to that strikes me is that, because the House does not sit do, including the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John on some days until 2.30 pm, the news media have ample Mann). opportunity to coax information out of Ministers that might be better given to the House. I, for one, would Mr Hollobone: I am sure that any motion that comes like to put it on the record that I would be very willing before the House will benefit from the contribution of to come in and go home much earlier for sittings and the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), because have a much more family-friendly set of hours. he has a lot to say on the issue, and quite rightly so. However, what I would say to him now is that the Mr Hollobone: That is a most helpful and excellent motion on the Order Paper this evening is not wishy-washy. suggestion from my hon. Friend, and I am delighted We commend the Speaker on the brave steps that he has that she has had the opportunity to make it. It would taken, we reassert the principle that Ministers ought to appear to most people outside this place that the hours make statements to the House, and we note paragraph we sit are in many ways absurd and certainly not family 9.1 of the ministerial code. We can vote on the motion friendly. Furthermore, in many ways they are not the this evening or we can accept it without going through best hours for us to do good business in the House, and the Division Lobbies. We will be in a far better place if anything that would stop journalists getting information the motion succeeds this evening than we were yesterday. before hon. Members would need to be welcomed. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): My (Pete Wishart) asked what comfort our Committee could hon. Friend has been extremely generous in giving way. offer minority parties. The invitation is open to the Does he agree that we will need to see a major shift in 249 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 250 Statements Statements how the media do their business? It is not just the expect the total figure to be somewhat higher. We are 24-hour news cycle; it seems that the local and national therefore talking about a regular occurrence, and it is media expect to be given everything in advance. They clearly difficult for any Government, of whatever colour, ring us before we make a speech to ask us what will be in to get things right. That is why we now have an opportunity, it. Does he agree that that has to change? with this new politics, to try to ensure that we have a protocol in place that everyone can understand and Mr Hollobone: That is a most helpful intervention, which it is far more difficult to fall foul of. and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making it. I Even though the Backbench Business Committee is a have huge respect for those who work in news organisations. new innovation, the issue of ministerial statements going They have a difficult job to do and, by and large, they wrong has been discussed on the Floor of the House do it very well, whether in our local newspapers or as and by Select Committees before. In February 2001, the representatives of the national media. What I would say Public Administration Committee conducted an inquiry to my hon. Friend is that news is not really news into the ministerial code. Its findings make for interesting anymore. In the olden days, news used to be about reading, so perhaps I could indulge the House for a things that had happened; nowadays, news is about moment by reading them: things that are anticipated will happen. Often, by the “There is one respect in which the accountability requirements time the event actually takes place the news has moved of Ministers in relation to Parliament have been weakened over on to something else. The broadcasters in particular, the lifetime of the Ministerial Code. This concerns policy with the appetite for 24-hour coverage, are distorting announcements to Parliament. The 1949 version of the Code the news picture and confusing a lot of our constituents. provided that: ‘When Parliament is in session, important announcements of Government policy should be made, in the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am grateful first instance, in Parliament.’ However, in…1997…the formulation to my hon. Friend for giving way. He is making a has become: ‘When Parliament is in session, Ministers will want to bear in mind the desire of Parliament that the most important powerful and historic speech that will go down in the announcements of Government policy should be made, in the annals of this great Parliament. The reason why the first instance, to Parliament.’ This represents a reduction in hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) is unhappy is parliamentary accountability.We recommend that when the Ministerial that there were no amendments to the motion from Code is next revised the spirit of the original wording should be hon. Members, which is a shame. However, if he was restored in respect of announcements of important Government minded to divide the House this evening because the policy.” motion did not go far enough, he would be giving all Basically, the Government of the day, having been those Ministers who leak the opportunity to vote against it. ticked off, accepted that recommendation. However, my contention—and that of the Backbench Business Mr Hollobone: There’s food for thought. My hon. Committee—is that despite being corrected by the Public Friend makes an excellent point. Administration Committee in 2001, the procedure is still not clear enough to the Government of the day. Barry Gardiner: I rise simply to correct the assertion I I have to say that I am extremely disappointed that made earlier that the Press Gallery was bereft. I have the new coalition Government have got off to a bad since noticed the not inconsiderable frame of one of the start on the release of policy information to this House—I members of the press—I believe from the Jewish should also say that I would have said that whichever Chronicle—who— Government were now in power. The coalition Government got off to a bad start with the Queen’s Speech, which is Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman entered the an extremely poor place to get off to a bad start. The House with me in 1997, and he is aware of the normal hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised the custom that one does not refer to people outside the matter in the House on a point of order on 25 May, Chamber. I allowed a modest latitude for the hon. when he said to you, Mr Speaker: Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), because what he was saying was central to the thrust of the argument “You rightly used to excoriate Labour Ministers if ever we made announcements before making them to this House, so will that he wished to develop, but to get into the business of you make sure that that lot over there do not announce things to identifying individual journalists is not good for the the press—as they have done, day in, day out over the past House, and it is probably not good for the egos of the 10 days—without first bringing them before this House?” journalists concerned either. You, Sir, then said: Mr Hollobone: I am grateful for your ruling, Mr Speaker. “This gives me the opportunity to say at the start of this new Parliament that I shall continue to expect, as I said two days after Should there be any members of the Press Gallery up first being elected Speaker last June, that ‘Ministers ought to there this evening, they should be commended on turning make key statements to the House before they are made elsewhere’… up, although as you know, the reputations of lots of If they do otherwise, I—and, I am sure, the House—will expect to members of the Press Gallery precedes them, whether hear explanations and apologies as necessary.”—[Official Report, they are here or not. 25 May 2010; Vol. 510, c. 53.] If you will forgive me, Mr Speaker, I got stuck in You have been as good as your word, Mr Speaker. 1947, with the resignation of the then Chancellor of the The Backbench Business Committee—and, I hope, the Exchequer. However, to move on from that, the Library whole House tonight—will praise you for that, because has produced some valuable intelligence on the issue of you insisted that Ministers who have not complied ministerial statements not being made correctly. I come to the Chamber to apologise to the House. understand that in the 27 years since 1983, there have [Interruption.] Yes, and rightly so. Why? Because we been 44 incidents on the Floor of the House when the are, rightly or wrongly, elected by our constituents to be Speaker or a Deputy Speaker has had to make a ruling their representatives in this national Parliament; and if about the pre-release of information. Indeed, I fully a Minister is deliberately or inadvertently releasing 251 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 252 Statements Statements [Mr Hollobone] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Would it not be a good idea to have statements delivered at the beginning information before telling the people’s representatives, of the day, so that there would be less chance of their they should be called to this House to apologise. To the falling into the news cycle? If they happened at the start credit of the Ministers involved, even though they made of the day, they would set the agenda. a mistake with the pre-release of information, they have had the good grace to come here and apologise—and I Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend makes an extremely now make a partisan point—unlike Ministers in the last good point, which is not unrelated to the earlier intervention Government, who never did so! by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire It is wholly appropriate for the Opposition of the day (Harriett Baldwin). If the parliamentary day were shifted to hold Ministers to account for the release of information. forward, it would clearly help regarding the danger of That is part of the job of Opposition. However, that is leaking information. also the job of all Back Benchers, whatever party we What we need is some iron resolve in Ministers of the represent, and it is no use Government Members not Crown that when they make important decisions, they being prepared to criticise Government Ministers because announce them to the people’s representatives first. we are supposed to be on the same side. We have to They face all sorts of difficulties with that, but the think wider than that if we are to fulfil our proper roles message should go out from us tonight that we really as Back Benchers. We must have the guts to stand up want them to face up to them. and say to Ministers on our own side, if necessary, that this is not right and not the way to treat the House of Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): The hon. Commons of the UK. We should encourage Ministers Gentleman is leading us gently to the place where I to take a professional pride in releasing information think he wants to take us, but on the question of only to this House in the first instance. meeting earlier and earlier—apart from the inevitable logic of having the House sitting just after midnight—what on earth would he do about the Sunday papers? Saturday Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman sittings have not occurred since the 17th century, I is making a very sensible speech, and I look forward to believe, although I am sure that the hon. Member for his promotion to the Conservative Front Bench in the Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell) will remind me. very near future. Is not the problem the fact that there is not really any sanction? The worst possible sanction is Mr Hollobone: I do not detect a huge appetite for that Mr Speaker says, “You have got to come and make Saturday sittings, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to an apology”, at the end of which not much happens. make that representation, he is perfectly entitled to do Would it not be better if we had a proper system of so. I recognise that there is a problem with the weekend sanctions so that Ministers could, if they broke this media. Are we really saying that the media are so code, be referred to the Committee on Standards and voracious in their desire for news and so powerful that Privileges? Her Majesty’s Government are unable to resist them? If so, we are saying that our democracy is pretty hopeless. Mr Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent contribution, and I hope the Procedure Committee will Mr David: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what take it into account. I am sure the hon. Gentleman he describes could be put to an end if the Prime Minister would want to put the point that he just raised to that of the day said simply that this should happen no more? Committee. Mr Hollobone: I do not think that would be enough, which is what is behind tonight’s motion. It is not for Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is being generous in giving the Prime Minister alone to say these things; it is up to way. Should we not take very seriously the point raised us in this House to assert our authority over the Prime by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) because, Minister and other Ministers of the Crown. It is up to after all, he is a poacher who has now become a us collectively to say, “We are the House of Commons, gamekeeper? rightly or wrongly, and all of us were elected by our constituents to hold the Government of the day to Mr Hollobone: That is right: the hon. Member for account.” It is not up to us, on matters like this, to take Rhondda has seen things from both sides of the fence. I diktats from the Prime Minister. It is for us to say to am sure he was very careful about the release of information Ministers, “If you have an announcement affecting the when he was a Minister, and I am also sure that he nation, we want to be told first”—not only because we appreciates how difficult it is—I understand this—for were elected by the people to represent them, but because Ministers of the Crown to control the release of information we can then question Ministers about the statements when, over the years, this culture of news management they make. If we get this right, it will raise the level and has developed. In Government Departments and in quality of statements because Ministers will know, as political parties, there are spin doctors and advisers the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan whose job it is to manage the news, but the message Beith) said, that they cannot just spin things out to the should go out to these people that they are getting in the media, as they have to come here and face our wrath way of our democracy. They are not the most important first. people in our democracy; it is the people’s representatives who are the most important. All of us here can, in Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does my hon. theory, bring Governments down if we have the guts to Friend agree that the real problem at the heart of the do so, and we should hold the Government of the day issue is the precise interpretation of the ministerial to account for their behaviour. code, which states that “the most important 253 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 254 Statements Statements announcements” have to be made “in the first instance” Gallery is full because members of the press want to to Parliament? It is particularly the interpretation of hear the news on the Floor of the House first. When it “the most important announcements”, as opposed to is pre-released to the media, the Gallery is empty. announcements that affect the whole nation, as my hon. I have spoken for too long—[HON.MEMBERS: “No, Friend said, that is critical. If it were to say “all no!”] I shall take those expressions of mock affection as announcements”, for example, there would be no doubt they were intended. about it, and it would effect a change in Government I want to end my speech not by being teacher’s pet, policy. If that were to happen, it might go a long way but by genuinely saying to you, Mr Speaker, that many towards resolving this problem. of us who are in the Chamber and many Members who are not present genuinely admire what you have done Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend makes an extremely with regard to statements. I want to reprise what you good point, and I hope that he, too, makes a representation said two days after your election as Speaker, because I to the Procedure Committee. The difficulty that we all consider it to be important and a good base on which to face is that if the Government were to make all proceed. On 24 June last year, Sir, you said: announcements on the Floor of the House, there would “Just before we move on to the main business, I want to make a not be much time left for other business—Government brief statement of just three points. First, as I said on Monday, or otherwise. The difficulty is striking the right balance when Ministers have key policy statements to make, the House between the most important policy announcements and must be the first to hear them, and they should not be released the others. beforehand. Secondly, in statements, I ask the Front Benchers to We saw a very good example of that today on the stick to their allotted times. I also ask that the Back-Bench Members taking part each confine themselves to one, brief occasion of the urgent question about the Office for supplementary question. In the same vein, I hope that Ministers’ Tax Simplification. I am perfectly prepared to accept replies will be kept to a reasonable length. Finally, I always expect that the Exchequer Secretary had very good intentions that those speaking in this Chamber will be heard, so that an in releasing a written ministerial statement, but as a atmosphere of calm, reasoned debate is maintained.”—[Official humble Back Bencher I must express my personal view Report, 24 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 797.] that on a day when we were discussing Treasury matters, It is possible that not all those boxes have been ticked—and it would have made sense for him to come to the House if so, it is probably largely the fault of us Back Benchers— and make an oral statement. but your central point, Sir, about the need to ensure that The difficulty faced by my hon. Friend the Exchequer policy announcements are made to the people’s Secretary lay in the need to achieve the right balance representatives first on the Floor of the House, was between what is a really important statement and what absolutely spot on. It is the job of this motion, and of is not. Today Mr Speaker rightly accepted an urgent subsequent action, to ensure that we bring that about. question because he felt that it concerned a matter that he felt needed to be discussed on the Floor of the 8.14 pm House. However, I think that if we can clarify the protocol, with the guidance of the Procedure Committee Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): It is a and input from hon. Members, the Exchequer Secretary, pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kettering if faced with a similar situation in the future, will be (Mr Hollobone), who is and always has been a very crystal clear about what should be announced on the assiduous Back Bencher. I am sure he can confirm to Floor of the House and what should be released in the the House that he did not pre-brief the press on his form of a written ministerial statement. That is an speech. illustration of the fact that the present system is not We are debating an issue that is of real importance to working properly. the way in which the House, and thence our parliamentary democracy, functions. It is imperative for the debate not Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am put in mind of, I to be seen through the petty prism of party politics. think, Pericles in Athens. He said that while only a few This is not a partisan issue, and while attempts to might originate a policy, anyone could judge it. Would portray it as such are understandable enough, given the my hon. Friend care to reflect on where we are more general atmosphere in this place and the anger that can broadly in our country in terms of the internet? Nowadays, be generated among both MPs and our constituents when a policy is announced anyone can indeed judge it, when the ministerial code is broken, it would be wrong and can immediately start to communicate about it. to do so. Could my hon. Friend perhaps put that in the context Let me take up the theme initiated by the hon. of the House of Commons? Gentleman. A hallmark of your tenure thus far, Mr Speaker, is that you have acted to strengthen the role of the Back Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend is clearly better educated Bencher and have sought to reinforce the principles of than I, especially in the classics, and I commend him for the ministerial code, one of which is that important that. He has also made a very good point. As well as statements should be made here before they are made to 24-hour news media, we now have the internet and all the media. All too often, however, that convention is its ramifications. still flouted, and it is only through the granting of I do not particularly mind how people comment on urgent questions that Members are able to represent Government policy announcements. I do not mind their constituents’ interests in the face of an Executive whether they do so by means of a written note, internet who continue the age-old tradition of occasionally treating traffic or any other means, as long as the House hears the House, and the Speaker, with discourtesy. about the policy first. I want the Press Gallery to be full. This is not a new problem, and I do not wish the When an important announcement is made by, say, a debate to descend into a tit-for-tat event during which Minister from the Department for Transport, the Press each side decries the other for having “started it first”. 255 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 256 Statements Statements [Alison Seabeck] Ministers to prevent some of those mistakes from happening, and it is a shame—a real shame—that the The issue has plagued the House under Governments of Education Department’s Ministers did not check the all colours—although I am pleased that the Liberals, detail of those lists more carefully. As has been pointed who of course have not been in government until very out, however, the Secretary of State had the good grace recently, for once cannot play the “whiter than white” to apologise in person. card. I am afraid that we are all implicated. Back Benchers really should not have to sit by their Announcements on the “Today”programme, to GMTV radios every morning listening with bated breath to the or to the newspapers are nothing new. Quite apart from “Today”programme while simultaneously channel-hopping the leaking of this year’s Budget, the Queen’s Speech across the various breakfast television media, simply to and a raft of subsequent policies, our parliamentary make certain that they know what is going on. Back history is littered with examples. In 1936—well before Benchers ought to know that this House, and this the 1947 leak—the Budget was leaked by Jimmy Thomas House alone, is where statements are made, where policy to another Conservative Member. He subsequently resigned will first be debated, and where their views will be heard not only his seat in the Cabinet, but his seat in the before the media circus kicks off. The comments of the House. hon. Member for Kettering about the empty Press Gallery reinforce that point. If Ministers had to come Mr Bone: The hon. Lady is making a powerful speech. to this House, those in the Press Gallery would be able However, in that instance the Budget may not have been to see the reaction of Back-Bench MPs and hear our leaked. It is possible that there was an inadvertent constituents’ concerns being voiced directly. An empty interpretation of something that had been said. Even Press Gallery is not a good sign. the suggestion that there had been a leak was enough for the Minister concerned to resign. John Mann: Does my hon. Friend agree that if this motion is passed tonight and a Minister transgresses in Alison Seabeck: Yes, indeed. It was a question of the near future, that would be a far greater offence than honour, and I think that we have lost a little of that. in recent years, and it would therefore require far stronger As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Kettering, action from the House? the 1947 Budget was famously leaked to the Star by the Alison Seabeck: My hon. Friend is absolutely right then Labour Chancellor, and the 1996 Budget somehow and, if the motion is agreed to, it will be interesting to ended up in the hands of the Daily Mirror.AsIhave see how the Procedure Committee takes matters forward. said, it is not a new problem; but it is a problem whose I shall have some suggestions later in my comments as resolution is long overdue. We must take it upon ourselves, to exactly what some of the penalties might be. in this new Parliament, to ensure that the House is returned to the heart of substantive political life in this Stephen Pound: My hon. Friend the Member for country. Rhondda (Chris Bryant) talked about sanctions, and I am not interested in the question of who has the my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View worst track record, although it is useful to be able to (Alison Seabeck) mentioned the case of J. H. Thomas. draw on historical examples. I am interested in how we If I remember rightly, he was playing golf on the can bring the practice to an end. This was supposed to morning in question and made a joke about “Tee up”, be the “clean slate” Parliament. A new Parliament with which was interpreted to mean that there was going to a large influx of new Members should have been able to be an additional duty on tea, which was correct. He was start afresh. We have made many advances in the way in sued by the Thomas Lipton company because of the which we do things—I am thinking not least of the consequences for its shares. Does my hon. Friend the advent of a Committee devoted to Back-Bench business— Member for Plymouth, Moor View agree that this is all but the continuation of the old way of doing things about Ministers trying to control situations, and it is the must be nipped in the bud. control rather than the inadvertence is the key to the The fact that Governments, Labour, Liberal and issue? Does she also have sympathy for the point made Tory, have leaked and pre-announced policy to the by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda that this media in the past—advertently or inadvertently—does issue should, in fact, be referred to the Standards and not give licence to the current incumbents to carry on in Privileges Committee? the same way. We are in the process of changing the Alison Seabeck: I thank my hon. Friend for his, as balance of Parliament, so that it ceases to be a Parliament always, incredibly well-informed comments. in which Back Benchers are here simply to cheer on their respective Front Benchers, and becomes one in Stephen Pound: I was there at the time. which ministerial promotion is not seen as the sole Alison Seabeck: You don’t look a day over 21! career path, and in which Back Benchers can bring their experience to bear and ensure that their constituents’ I agree that the precise nature of the sanction is an interests are fully represented. We cannot do that if the issue—and I have a proposal that may be thought of as House is not treated as the right and proper place for somewhat flippant. My hon. Friend the Member for ministerial announcements and statements. Rhondda is something of an expert, however, and I therefore think we should listen very carefully to what We all know that Ministers have a hard job to do. he has to say and to his proposals. Working on red boxes at 2 am, as Ministers do in some of the busier Departments, is not fun, and mistakes do Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): On the occur. Working in haste also leads to mistakes and poor need to take this issue forward speedily and robustly, scrutiny by Ministers of vital papers, as has happened does my hon. Friend agree that it is a matter of considerable in the last week or two. We must not mention the word regret that the Procedure Committee has not yet been “lists” too often. However, it is within the power of appointed, and will she join me in encouraging Members, 257 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 258 Statements Statements particularly on the Opposition Benches, to make up the John Mann: My hon. Friend has brought up a critical numbers so as to ensure that this can be dealt with change that has taken place with complicity on both properly? Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for sides of the House, which is that the majority of special Bassetlaw (John Mann) might join us as a member of advisers appear, in fact, to be media advisers and press that Committee in order to ensure that it does, indeed, officers who advise on nothing special other than how produce an early and robust response. to manage news. Is this not a problem that has now become deeply embedded in our politics, and which we Alison Seabeck: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks, could look at addressing? and I am sure colleagues on both sides of the House will have heard what he had to say. It is to be hoped that a Alison Seabeck: Yes, it is a problem, and strangely volunteer or two will come forward. The Committee enough it is at its worst at the beginning of a new should be set up as soon as possible, and he is right that Government. When our party was elected to government it will be very difficult to proceed otherwise. in 1997, we had a lot of very good advisers who had Back Benchers and the whole House ought to be the been extraordinarily good in opposition at spinning first to hear ministerial statements and policy stories out and making sure that shadow Ministers got announcements, and they should know that the only their stories in the press. However, working with the place for that will be either this place or the other place. civil service and Parliament in government is a completely That is a matter not only of constitutional convention different mindset. We have to treat the two phases quite and courtesy but of practicality. Members of this House differently. A special adviser just chatting away to a should not have to be faced with phone calls from the media person and trying to get the nub of a story media telling them what is going on in the outside world out—or spinning it out—from a Government position and asking for their views on events about which they can have the sort of effect that we have seen, and which have no knowledge. We have all experienced that and, we are all here in the Chamber now objecting about, apart from anything else, having to say, “I haven’t heard when a story appears in the press in advance of being about that” is very embarrassing—nor does it give announced in the House. people confidence in our ability to do our job properly. That is certainly not a way to run a democracy, and I John Mann: Taking the Department for Transport, or look to the Leader of the House to ensure that, in so far whatever it might be called these days, as an example, is as his remit stretches, our democracy runs as well as it not the point that the concept of a special adviser possibly can. I therefore hope he will commit to redoubling suggests someone who is highly specialist and gives his efforts to bring Ministers to the Dispatch Box before advice on transport, not somebody who is highly specialist they reach for the radio mike. and gives advice on news management? Even if Ministers are held to greater account by the House, it is that An excuse that has often been given is that the feature of special advisers that is so embedded in our majority of the White Paper or statement was in fact system, as is the concept of their spinning to the media. revealed to the House and that only one or two of the After all, that is precisely what these people are paid main items have been released to the public—that is of to do. relevance to a point made earlier about the precise wording of paragraph 9.1 of the ministerial code. That Alison Seabeck: I thank my hon. Friend for that excuse is not good enough, because often the juicy bits intervention. To be fair to special advisers and to Ministers of the White Paper or statement are leaked to the press who employ them, they are not all of that ilk; there are and the House is left with the odds and sods—if I am within government, as there certainly were within our allowed to use that term. [Interruption.] Yes, the bare Government, very specialist people in the particular bones might be a better phrase. My point is, however, spheres in which they work. that all of the contents should be saved for the Floor of the House. Unfortunately, despite the risk of being chastised by you, Mr Speaker, and your predecessors, it has been Mr Bone: The hon. Lady has got to the crux of the difficult to bring both the current Government and the issue. The Minister wants to leak the juicy bits to the previous one to heel on some of these issues. Although media because it will get a favourable press. If he does apologies have been made, sanctions should be considered. not do that, the media might write about the bits he I hope that the Chairman of the Procedure Committee does not want to be discussed. is listening to these comments, which I am sure will be reinforced later in the debate. What is an appropriate Alison Seabeck: I am sure the hon. Gentleman is punishment for Ministers? Perhaps we should make absolutely right, and I concur with that view. I do not them deliver the apology on their knees at the Bar of imagine that any member of the Treasury-Bench team the House. will be willing to defend the practice of pre-announcing I shall stop being frivolous, because this is a serious policies or leaks to the media. If any of them are, issue and one on which the Government were elected. however, then I am ready to give way and hear the All parties stood for cleaning up Parliament, modernising rationale, but if they cannot defend the practice then this House and listening to Back-Bench MPs, and the they should not practise it. Government were elected on that. It might therefore be Under a Labour Government, we had the release of appropriate for the Procedure Committee to consider difficult news under cover of a smokescreen of even insisting that the Prime Minister come to the House to worse news—“A good day to bury bad news” was a apologise in person every time one of his Ministers term used. However, that term was used by a special pre-announces something. The thought of a Prime adviser, and although what she did was not technically Minister having to come to the Dispatch Box on a out of order, she at least left her job as a consequence. regular basis to apologise for the actions of members of Ministers need to learn some lessons from that. his team would help to focus minds. Such an approach 259 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 260 Statements Statements [Alison Seabeck] should be addressed and we need ways to deal with it. We have heard mention of the ministerial code, but one would make him force his Front Benchers to behave, of the problems with it is that it is not policed by the because that would not be good for his business or for House but by the Prime Minister. The hon. Member for his image. Brent North (Barry Gardiner) touched on what has been the problem in the past—Prime Ministers have Barry Gardiner: Does my hon. Friend agree that, perhaps not been as attentive to the ministerial code as given the extent of leaks from both parties when they they should have been. The hon. Member for Rhondda have been in government, the fact that the leaks have (Chris Bryant) mentioned sanctions. If the House approves continued signals either that the Prime Minister does the motion tonight, I anticipate that sanctions will be not have authority over his Cabinet or that he refuses to considered as part of the inquiry that the Procedure implement that authority? Committee would wish to pursue. I intend to be brief this evening, because I believe Alison Seabeck: I agree with my hon. Friend. that it would be inappropriate for me to take a position The motion states that we need a “protocol” that on what our conclusions ought to be. If the House Ministers will abide by and, as Back Benchers, we agrees to the motion, the Committee that I chair will should expect that to happen. As my hon. Friend the deliberate, assess and then judge the appropriate way Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) says, it has to have forward and will then, very likely, make a number of teeth. There will be an expectation that the Procedure recommendations to the House. I have long believed Committee will take this forward and we will expect that it is extremely important that one should not be an serious proposals to be made. If they are not, we should advocate if one is also to be a judge. revisit this issue because it is incredibly serious. We have heard all the talk about new politics, but I think we Mr Hollobone: It is a shame, if I may say so, that my should have some action. Let us see Ministers acknowledge right hon. Friend intends to make a short speech, the respect with which this House ought to be treated because he is off to a good start. Would it be his and see an end to policy announcements in the breakfast intention, when his Committee meets, for this to be the media. first item of business to be discussed? Does he anticipate 8.32 pm bringing back his findings to the House according to a speedy timetable? Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I welcome the fact that we are debating this motion tonight and Mr Knight: I certainly intend to suggest to the Committee that we now have a Backbench Business Committee in that this should be the first item to be pursued and, if it place. This reform has been a long time coming—the takes my advice, I hope that it will agree to deal with the idea that the House of Commons should control its matter with all due speed. It is not appropriate for me to own timetable was first set out in the 1590s by someone pontificate this evening on the detail of the line of that called Robert Parsons. So, it has taken more than investigation. Instead, I would prefer to remain present 400 years since the idea was first mooted for it to throughout the debate to listen to and reflect on the become a reality. That is hardly speedy progress, even by views expressed by the House. parliamentary standards. This is a good motion, but the subject at issue is one The call by Robert Parsons for the Commons to take that, as the motion itself accepts, needs the full and control of its own agenda and assert its historic role as rigorous examination of a Select Committee inquiry. I the fount of all public law fell on deaf ears at the time. hope that the House will allow that inquiry to take But the call in 2009 by the Committee on Reform of the place. House of Commons, to which I was pleased to have been elected a member, has been more successful. I am delighted that we now have a Backbench Business 8.37 pm Committee in place at long last. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I am I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate (Mr Hollobone) on his speech and the Chair and members tonight and to give the perspective of a new Member of of the Backbench Business Committee on bringing the House who has spent the past 11 weeks trying to forward this motion tonight. We have heard a number make sense of what has been going on. I am tremendously of quotes about what you have said since you took the grateful—I know that I speak for other new Members—for Chair, Mr Speaker, but you have been consistent. Before the welcome that we have had from right hon. and hon. you took the Chair, you said, when expressing your own Members and from the staff of the House. However, I views on this subject, that regret to say that that welcome is not sufficient to enable “once and for all, Ministers must be obliged to make key policy us as new Members to feel that we can do the job statements here.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 624.] effectively, as our constituents expect us to from day As with so many of your pronouncements, Mr Speaker, one. As someone who knew a bit about the House who could disagree with that? I certainly do not. So I before I was elected to represent the constituency that I support the motion and, if the House agrees, I would be now have the privilege to represent, I have found it very pleased to see that it is properly considered by the difficult to navigate Parliament geographically and Procedure Committee, which I chair. procedurally. I welcome this debate, not just in its own I know from his interventions that the hon. Member narrow terms but as the means to open up a discussion for Bassetlaw (John Mann) does not want to see a about a modern and well-informed Parliament. wishy-washy report. The basis on which I support this All this matters so much not because of some abstract motion and will be inviting the Procedure Committee to debate about the importance of the Commons, notions investigate the matter is my belief that this problem of procedure or ideas of self-importance—to which 261 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 262 Statements Statements many of us are prone, I guess—but because this Kate Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Government, in common with preceding Governments, his comments. In common with all the hon. Members are proposing to make massive changes to our welfare who have spoken this evening, I am anxious that this state that will have a significant impact on the lives of should not be a partisan debate. I was not in the House my constituents. Such changes to our system of social during Labour’s terms of government, but I was certainly support must be fully debated with the benefit of the aware of many of the proposals and debates that were best information and understanding. brought forward and we often lamented how they came Already, in only a few weeks, the introduction of new at us out of nowhere, without proper time for input and legislation such as the Academies Bill and the launch of consideration. I certainly hope that we will start to see the White Paper on the national health service have some changes coming from all the political parties. I revealed the scale of the changes that I have described, know that would be warmly welcomed by informed as will the future proposals on welfare reform and opinion outside the House. pensions reform. They are not theoretical or empty Robert Halfon: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way political gestures of change but fundamental changes to again. What I wanted to ask is whether she agreed that the quality of my constituents’ lives. there has already been some progress in that we are I hope that the motion will open up a debate about having this debate at all, in that there is now a Backbench how we can do government better and more effectively. Committee with an elected Chairman and in that we For me, that means that the new politics require a now have elected members and Chairmen of Select modern Parliament. Many of the issues that hon. Members Committees? In some ways, the Government are giving have touched on would help us to become that more powers back to Parliament. modern Parliament. Many of the parliamentary instruments Kate Green: It is right that the House has begun to and devices that we are encouraged to use are, from the take on more powers that improve the democratisation point of view of the newcomer at least, opaque and of processes, but I do not think that is a consequence of unwieldy at best. My concern is that we should be one particular Government, as there has been pressure well-informed, that matters should be well-scrutinised from Back Benchers as a whole. Also, the steps taken so and that we should have time to consider properly the far have been relatively limited. To sit back now and be absolutely vital issues that we are rightly debating and complacent about what has been achieved under the addressing in the House. That means that when statements first few weeks of this Government would be a very are made and legislation is brought before the House, serious limitation on where I suggest we ought to go as they must be in a form that enables hon. Members to a House. In conclusion, I support the thrust of the consider them properly, fully and appropriately in terms motion, but I hope that it is only the beginning of the of the time available and the extent of the information debate. I believe that I have been elected to do the best I that is laid before us. can for my constituents, and the provision of timely, That point was made repeatedly and from both sides comprehensive information is key to enabling me to do of the House in yesterday’s debate on the Academies that. Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) has said, measures that 8.45 pm are brought forward in haste and without adequate The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George scrutiny turn out to be poor when we have to live with Young): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for them. Given the scale of the changes and the ambitions Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), who made a of the coalition Government, it is important that we thoughtful speech about the need for a modern and well should have time to reflect on the proposed changes. We informed House. On her remarks, it is indeed our ambition are being asked to respond and to legislate before the to have a legislative programme that is well prepared detail is properly filled in. There is a lack of opportunity when the Bills are introduced and that is of a size that both inside and beyond the House for informed debate. the House can easily digest, and it is our intention that Welcome steps have been taken to improve that—I the House should have an opportunity, which it did not particularly welcome knowing the date of the spending always have in the last Parliament, to consider the review in advance as well as the first steps that have legislation seriously and without undue pressure. been taken in the Budget Red Book to try to open up It is a pleasure to intervene briefly in the first debate some of the impact assessments—but there is still a initiated by the new Backbench Business Committee. long way to go. This is the first time that the House has had an opportunity to debate a substantive motion on a subject tabled by a Back Bencher since the old system of private Members’ Robert Halfon: You mentioned that because of all the motions was abolished in 1995. My right hon. Friend big legislation coming through, it is important that the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) went a Parliament has the right powers, and of course I agree little further back in history to the Jesuit, Robert Parsons, with you, but do you agree that under the last Government to identify the source of the Backbench Business there were also very big legislative measures and that Committee. I do not want to prejudice the consensual Parliament was then neutered by programme motions nature of the debate by complaining too loudly of the and having only one question time a week instead of last Government’s failure to set up that Committee. It two? Do you agree— would be uncharitable to blame even the last Leader of the House for making slow progress on an idea that Mr Speaker: Order. The intervention is a little on the appears to have been some four centuries in the making. long side. May I very gently say to the hon. Gentleman I pay tribute to the energetic way that the hon. that I did not mention anything and that I am not Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) agreeing with anyone? I call Kate Green. has set up the Committee and hit the ground running. 263 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 264 Statements Statements [Sir George Young] The Government await with interest the recommendations of the Procedure Committee, especially I said in the last Parliament that I wanted the Backbench in relation to the ministerial code, which has already Business Committee to set the first topical debate of been cited. Among other things, the code provides: this Parliament. In fact, it has done better than that and “When Parliament is in session, the most important announcements chosen a subject for a full three-hour debate, and I am of Government policy should be made in the first instance, in delighted that progress is being made. Restoring public Parliament.” confidence in Parliament is one of the ambitions of the Since the start of this Parliament, the Government have coalition. Enabling Parliament to do its job effectively is made 20 oral statements and 189 written statements, a key part of that process, and giving the Backbench which is an average since the Queen’s Speech of nearly Business Committee its agenda-setting powers is a major three oral statements per sitting week and nearly seven milestone in doing that. written statements per sitting day. On top of that, we Turning to the motion, allegations that the Government have answered five urgent questions. In this Parliament, make announcements to the media before making them there have already been a total of 214 announcements to the House are not new. This is my 10th Parliament, to the House over 30 sitting days, so I hope that the and I can remember occasions in every preceding one House accepts that as evidence that the Government when one of the six Speakers who have sat in the Chair, take the code seriously. beginning with Selwyn Lloyd, have rebuked Ministers Even with the best endeavours, as we have heard, for continuing that practice. As we have heard, Mr Speaker, leaks to the media can occur before announcements are you made it clear in your very first statement that made to the House and without the connivance of “when Ministers have key policy statements to make, the House Ministers. For example, as the hon. Member for Plymouth, must be the first to hear them, and they should not be released Moor View (Alison Seabeck) said, the whole of the beforehand.”—[Official Report, 24 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 797.] 1996 Budget found its way to the Daily Mirror. The then I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering Chancellor decided that there was nothing much that he (Mr Hollobone) on a first-class speech in moving the could do about it and took his whole team to an Indian motion. If I may say so, he was a little bit tough on restaurant—a characteristic response from my right those who sit on the Treasury Bench in implying that hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary. As my every Minister in the coalition Government should hon. Friend the Member for Kettering said, when things resign because they had all leaked information to the have gone wrong in this Parliament, Ministers have press, but otherwise, he made his case forcefully and come to apologise. convincingly. There is little doubt that, over perhaps the The code says that the “most important announcements” last 13 years, we have seen a more cavalier approach to should be made first to Parliament, but as we heard the way in which announcements are made than previously. earlier, that gives rise to the question of what the most In 1998, the then Speaker felt strongly enough about important announcements are—perhaps the Procedure the Labour Government’s consistent and deliberate leaks Committee would like to address that point. However, it that she gave a BBC interview outlining her frustration is worth pointing out that the code should not prevent that, although successive Governments had briefed the Ministers from making observations or comments about press before Parliament, it was being done policies that have already been announced, and nor “far more subtly and professionally” should it mean that we cannot make speeches or give since the 1997 election. interviews outside the House. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills As my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering and, was criticised last week for comments that he made indeed, other hon. Members have said, Parliament pays about the graduate tax in a television interview, but as I a price for that process. We devalue ourselves if the told the House last Thursday, there was no policy news is being made elsewhere. We therefore risk losing change because the question of a graduate tax had our position as the centre of British national debate. already been referred to Lord Browne’s review by the That is surely why the principle that we are debating previous Government. In my view, my right hon. Friend today is important. The hon. Member for Stretford and was taking part in the entirely legitimate debate that is Urmston touched on that principle. Again, it was well developing outside the House. put by Speaker Boothroyd who said in her farewell address: Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Not for the first “This is the chief forum of the nation—today, tomorrow and, I time, the right hon. Gentleman is shining the light of hope, for ever.”—[Official Report, 26 July 2000; Vol. 354, c. 1114.] clarity on the particular problem before us. He talked We are elected here to scrutinise the Executive and to about the seven or eight written statements that are hold Ministers to account on behalf of our constituents. released each day and the many oral statements, but It is therefore crucial that Ministers explain and justify how on earth can we come to a situation in which their policies in the Chamber in the first instance. somebody somewhere is tasked with deciding what is “the most important”? A written ministerial statement was made today on the 2013 review of the Rural Payments John Mann: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for Agency, but I would say that that is probably not the generously giving way. Does he agree that, if the motion most important—[Interruption.] I am sorry; I mean in is passed tonight, the scale of the offence of any Minister the scale of things to be reported to the House. Will the who transgresses is significantly higher than it would right hon. Gentleman consider introducing a system have been in the past? such as colour coding under which we could have different gradations of statement, meaning that some Sir George Young: It was a serious offence before this could be laid before the House while others would have debate and it will remain a serious offence afterwards. to be presented from the Dispatch Box? 265 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 266 Statements Statements Sir George Young: I accept the argument that we need Finally, I have already given a commitment to consider a gradation. In a sense, we have that already because we new procedures for the launching of Select Committee have oral statements and then written ministerial statements, reports on the Floor of the House. There is no reason and then I suppose we have press releases put out by why Ministers should have a monopoly on making Departments. However, it would be helpful if the Procedure statements to the House; Select Committee Chairs should Committee could shed some light on the key question also have that privilege. I had intended to write to my of what should trigger the obligation for a Minister to right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire, inviting make an oral statement to the House about a major the Procedure Committee to consider how that announcement of policy because Ministers, more than recommendation could be implemented. However, as anyone else, are anxious to stay within the rules. the proposal has something of the nature of a ministerial statement, perhaps the Procedure Committee will be The debate gives us the opportunity to stand back able to include it in the scope of the inquiry that is and think radically about statements and their role in before the House this evening. our agenda. Going back a few decades, the Government made statements to the House because that was the Mr Bone: The Leader of the House is making a very prime means of distributing information to the nation. important speech, but why does the practice, which the Life today could not be more different. There are more previous Government introduced, of announcing statements platforms than ever for the Government and others to in advance on the Order Paper seem not to happen communicate with individuals or communities, so the now? terms of trade have completely changed. It is right for the Procedure Committee to have a fresh look at the Sir George Young: My hon. Friend makes a good rules, which is why I will support the motion. point. I think that we have done that once during this Parliament, but I agree that it would be helpful if, so far If the motion is agreed, I propose to submit a as is possible, the House were given advance notice that memorandum of evidence to the Procedure Committee a Minister proposed to make an oral statement. on behalf of the Government, and at this point I would I hope to be able on Thursday to make further like to make a point that has not been raised before. In announcements about time for Back Benchers’ debates. the past three Parliaments, such an inquiry would probably Those debates are part of a process of moving towards have been carried out by the Modernisation Committee. a fully established House Committee, which we are That Committee was chaired by the Leader of the committed to establishing in three years’ time. Together House, and if that had been the route by which a with other reforms that either have been recently introduced recommendation had been agreed, the Leader of the or are under consideration, they will make this Parliament House would have submitted a report to the House of one where the terms of trade tilt back towards Parliament Commons. One only has to think about that for 30 seconds and away from the Executive, and oblige the Government to realise that that is entirely the wrong way to set about to raise their game. This Government welcome that the issue. That is why it was absolutely right at the challenge. beginning of this Parliament not to re-establish the Modernisation Committee, chaired by the Leader of 8.58 pm the House, but to ask the Procedure Committee to take Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab): This on board agendas that the Modernisation Committee is a historic debate, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend would previously have taken. the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) for chairing the Backbench Business Committee, and Let me briefly touch on a few ideas that the Procedure thus helping to bring forward the subject of this debate. Committee might look at. The Wright Committee said It is an excellent subject, because it goes straight to the that statements could be taken at a different point in the heart of the relationship between Parliament and the parliamentary day, and one has to ask whether 12.30 pm Executive—and inevitably, as hon. Members have already or 3.30 pm are the only times for statements. Is there a pointed out, the relationship between Parliament, the way of insulating time taken for statements from the Executive and what are nowadays 24-hour media. time allocated to the business of the House? For example, Governments are sometimes reluctant to make statements I congratulate the hon. Member for Hollobone— [Laughter.] on Opposition days because that eats into the time to Sorry, not Hollobone. It is Mr Hollobone, [Interruption.] which the Opposition are entitled. Could statements be the Member for— Kettering. Mr Kettering, shortened by having a yet tighter limit on the time that the Member for Hollobone—brilliant. He made a very Ministers’ take, or by releasing the text and relevant good opening speech, and, as the current deputy Leader papers in advance so that the House might proceed to of the House said before the election, Ministers should question the Secretary of State, rather than have the remember that statement read out? “their first responsibility in terms of information is to the House and nowhere else”.—[Official Report, 3 July 1998; Vol. 315, It would also be helpful if the Procedure Committee c. 657.] were to consider whether the earliest opportunity for The Leader of the House also once said that leaks issuing written statements might be brought forward. were a Not everyone is on the estate by 9.30 am, but I am sure “short circuit of the system”.—[Official Report, 12 July 1999; that a good number are in their offices even earlier than Vol. 335, c. 28.] that, and if the timing of written statements is brought It is also true that Members have claimed that all forward it should be accompanied by a system of making Governments have been guilty of bypassing Parliament. those statements available to Members either electronically, I am being entirely helpful and non-partisan when I say by e-mail, or by posting them on the parliamentary that the Government have managed to pack some intranet. To put that into context, Select Committees spectacular examples into their 10 short weeks of power. release many of their reports at one minute past midnight. As the hon. Member for Kettering said, that is not a 267 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 268 Statements Statements [Ms Rosie Winterton] I am not thinking of how journalists might quiz Ministers; Members have knowledge of how policies will translate good start, and as my hon. Friend the Member for at constituency level. Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) said, we need The fiasco over Building Schools for the Future was to remind ourselves of such issues. properly exposed only because Members of Parliament—on I merely want to help hon. Members—particularly both sides of the House—looked closely at the numerous the hon. Member for Kettering, as he puts together his lists that were produced, and in many cases spotted the resignation list. The Home Secretary was forced to mistakes. That was an important part of the role of come to the House to apologise for giving the media a Members of Parliament in coming forward to Ministers statement on the immigration cap that was meant for and asking and probing them about things. I predict the House. The Secretary of State for Education briefed that exactly the same will happen in relation to some of his plans for schools to the media, then, as we know, the changes proposed in the NHS when they are examined was forced to apologise for inaccuracies; I think there closely in practice at constituency level. As my hon. were five revised lists in the end. The Secretary of State Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate for Health briefed the media on the NHS operating Green) said, these are huge policy changes that will framework and on NHS reorganisation. Downing street hugely affect our constituents, and Members rightly seems to have briefed the entire Queen’s Speech to the want the opportunity to quiz Ministers as soon as they media. Meanwhile, the Secretary of State for Justice are announced. briefed on prison reform and the Chancellor of the With the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government, Exchequer briefed on spending cuts, financial reform it is even more important for us to hear announcements and specific figures in the Budget. Today, an urgent here, because we have a coalition agreement that is question meant that a Treasury Minister had to come to pulling together policies from two manifestos, sometimes the House to explain the structure and approach of the with a bit more put in, sometimes with a bit left out, so Office of Tax Simplification. it is often unclear whether a policy was one that people voted for or one that was part of the coalition agreement. Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): Has the right hon. That adds a new dimension to what we are discussing. Lady got a dossier on the number of leaks from the We welcome the idea that the Procedure Committee previous Labour Government? Does she have a number should look into whether the rules of the House could to compare with? be better used or changed to ensure that Ministers make Ms Winterton: I do not have an exact number, but I statements here. Following the speech by the right hon. do not think that the previous Government gave a Member for East Yorkshire, I have great faith that he is statement meant for the House—an actual, written going to look into that thoroughly, perhaps even with statement—to the media in advance. Furthermore, the the help of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw leaks of the specific Budget figures and the entire (John Mann). Queen’s Speech were pretty spectacular. I hope that the Committee can also consider the issue of Ministers making statements in the House, but then All that shows that there is much work to do. That is retracting them outside without necessarily coming back why I welcome the motion, and the fact that the Leader to the House to do so. Earlier today, we heard my right of the House has indicated his support. The motion hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Business, rightly refers to the action that you, Mr Speaker, have Innovation and Skills raise a point of order about an taken to make it clear to Ministers that they should example of this. In the House, the Deputy Prime Minister make statements to the House before they are made and the Prime Minister accused the directors of Sheffield elsewhere. Right hon. and hon. Members’ welcome for Forgemasters of being unwilling to dilute their shareholding that has already been reflected in the debate. and said that that was one of the reasons why the The motion also refers to the ministerial code and the Government cancelled the £80 million loan. However, rules of the House. I am sure that the Procedure Committee the Deputy Prime Minister has since written to the chief will want to look at whether the code and the relevant executive of Forgemasters acknowledging that he knew House rules reflect the reality of the pressure of 24-hour that the chief executive had offered to dilute his media. That issue has already been touched on. How shareholding. It seems that we have no ability to ensure can we ensure that Ministers are not tempted to try to that either the Deputy Prime Minister or the Prime fit in with the media timetable rather than the parliamentary Minister must come to the House to withdraw their timetable? Some interesting suggestions have been made previous comments. Perhaps the Committee could provide about meeting earlier, but unless we can get Ministers guidance on that. out of the “Today” studios, we will have to start meeting I welcome the support that the Leader of the House has at about 5 in the morning. We need to consider that given to the motion. I hope that in the meantime, before issue closely, but I certainly welcome the fact that the the Procedure Committee makes any recommendations, right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) has he will impress on Ministers the need to come to the said that the Procedure Committee will get full scale on House before announcements are made elsewhere. I to the matter. hope that this excellent debate will emphasise to Ministers We should also face the fact that there are those in the that Back Benchers—and, for that matter, Opposition media who think that they are perfectly capable of Front Benchers—regard this as a crucial issue for cross-examining Ministers, so what is all the fuss about Parliament. It is not just about keeping MPs happy; it is Parliament? However, as the motion says, it is essential about a vital way for us to represent our constituents. In for our democracy that Back Benchers—and, I would that spirit, we should all thank the Backbench Business add, Opposition Front Benchers—should be able to Committee for making this the subject of its first debate, hold the Government to account and quiz Ministers on and thank the hon. Member for Kettering for the what Government policy will mean for their constituents. motion before us. 269 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 270 Statements Statements Mr Speaker: Order. It might be helpful to the House That requires relatively nuisance-like people such as if I remind Members that this debate has to conclude me to do things that are perhaps not exactly what our no later than 10.34 pm, so we have 85 minutes left. The party would like us to do—especially with mine being in debate will, very properly, be wound up by the Chair of a coalition Government—and to raise embarrassing the Backbench Business Committee. I have had indications matters. That actually strengthens the whole process of from seven further Members that they wish to contribute; government, because when we ask difficult questions it right hon. and hon. Members are quite capable of may mean that civil servants are empowered to say to doing the arithmetic for themselves. the Government, “Well, actually, this isn’t necessarily something that you should do. Perhaps if you do it slightly differently, that will be a better way of running 9.9 pm the country.” John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Thank I have often described the way in which we run this you, Mr Speaker; I make that about 10 minutes. country as like driving a car and trying to avoid a car What is interesting about the current situation is that crash by looking in the rear view mirror at the car crash if the Procedure Committee comes up with proposals that happened two years ago. Many times when things for change, it will not have to beg the Government for go wrong in this country there is complete quiet. Then, time to have them debated but can simply pass them to after a year, a lot of people make a bit of noise but the Backbench Business Committee so that it can table nothing happens. After a bit longer even more people a substantive resolution to change the rules of Parliament. make a noise and there is an inquiry, which finds that That system, which most representative bodies have, is a there was a real disaster some years before. Parliament key change. needs to get more upstream in that process, so that The Leader of the House was entirely right not to problems are raised in Parliament as they arise and the recreate the Modernisation Committee, not least because Government answer, giving the truth about what is it was the wrong process: Parliament, not the Government, happening. should run Parliament. I was on the Modernisation One thing that shocked me when I came to the House Committee. I like these procedural matters, and I happen from Birmingham city council was how out of date the to be on both the Backbench Business Committee and information to which parliamentarians had access was. the Procedure Committee, not because I am a glutton Even as an opposition member of the city council I was for punishment so much as because procedure is the key used to knowing— way of enabling us to do things. Mr Speaker: Order. It is always a pleasure to listen to My memory may not be entirely right, but I believe the hon. Gentleman, but I must ask him to focus on the that the last time the Modernisation Committee met terms of the motion, specifically the question of information was some time in late 2008. The Opposition’s view was on Government statements and ministerial accountability that at that point Parliament was modern, so there was to the House for statements made. no reason for the Committee to continue meeting, and it ceased some time before the general election. However, John Hemming: Thank you, Mr Speaker we are now in a situation in which Parliament can assert This is about questions and information. The reality itself to take power on behalf of the electorate. That is is that we are now moving towards improving how the the key change. We are the voice of the people, and it is House holds the Government to account. Like the right our job to do that. hon. Member for East Yorkshire, I should avoid going into too many details on the possibilities, because I still Other changes will come through. One matter that hope to be on the Procedure Committee—if it is ever set the Procedure Committee considered in the previous up. If the Opposition are interested in matters of procedure Parliament was what we do when the Government fail and if they cannot find Labour Members to sit on that to answer a written parliamentary question. Under the Committee, why cannot the hon. Member for Perth and previous system we could either ask it again, which did North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who is a musician, not generally work very well, or put in a freedom of replace another musician and former Labour Member information request. That was an absurd situation, and who was defeated at the election? We need to constitute the Procedure Committee decided to establish a process the Procedure Committee. whereby hon. Members could go to that Committee and say, “This question has been inadequately answered.” Sir Peter Soulsby: I had the pleasure of serving with I hope that we will consider that matter as the second the hon. Gentleman on both the Modernisation Committee item on the agenda, because I agree with the right hon. and the Procedure Committee, and I share his frustration Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) that Parliament that the latter has not yet been established. Given the has to reassert itself. importance of the matter before us, does he agree that it I would go a bit further than that. We need to is vital that that Committee be established, and up and recognise that according to article 13 of the basic running, before the summer recess? constitutional law of the UK, the Bill of Rights, Parliament John Hemming: That is crucial. If the Labour party is here to redress all grievances. That means that we are cannot find someone in its midst to sit on that Committee, here to speak on behalf of our citizens wherever problems it should approach the minority parties. I am sure that a exist, whether they be in this country or around the minority party Member would like to do so. The minority world, in the judicial system or in the Executive. Over parties often complain that they are unable to sit on time we might move more towards the separation of Select Committees. powers, or we might simply stay as we are, but it is crucial for Parliament to assert itself as the voice of the Mr Knight: I cannot vouch for this 100%, but I heard people, and in doing so, bring Parliament closer to the a rumour that the Committee of Selection might determine people. the membership of the Procedure Committee tomorrow. 271 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 272 Statements Statements [Mr Knight] that they have investigated or have made recommendations on—to the attention of the House. A clear House code John Hemming: That is excellent news. If the House of accountability would get past the circular argument is to refer something to the Procedure Committee, it that takes place whenever hon. Members make a point would help if that Committee existed. That brings me of order about the lack of a statement—or the alleged to the point made by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw inaccuracy of a statement—and then you say that it is (John Mann), which is that this matter requires detailed not a matter for you, Mr Speaker. In the end, Ministers consideration—we cannot simply pass a resolution and are meant to be accountable to Parliament, but there is sort everything out. no accountability when these things go wrong. A clear We need to identify the details and a protocol, and House code of accountability would help us to achieve Ministers need guidance on what is sufficiently important that. to warrant this or that process. We need guidance on when information should be released and made available Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Does my hon. to the outside world and hon. Members via e-mail or Friend agree that if there were to be such a House code the Vote Office. I do not know exactly how long it takes it should look at mechanisms to deal with the situation for information that is placed in the Library to be put in which, however inadvertently, Ministers mislead the on the website. Many important issues need to be House—as a Minister did when he claimed that my considered, as we saw in connection with the Building local authority had only 2% cuts—or do not answer Schools for the Future announcement, when questions questions when asked? We do not have a proper remedy were asked about when information ought to have been in such circumstances, which are all too common at released. Such questions must be dealt with in great present. detail. Mark Durkan: I accept what my hon. Friend says. If Ministers do not wish to follow the guidance, we However, I doubt that a new House code of accountability must think about sanctions. Obviously, we have the would be able to cover all of these issues. It would have power under our inherent jurisdiction over contempt of to be more like a highway code than an exhaustive and Parliament to refer Ministers to the Standards and comprehensive law that was specific in all cases. On the Privileges Committee. Many strange sentences have been basis of case law and application, it could improve, and passed for such contempt in the past, such as sitting on then Ministers would not be able to claim that they were a horse backwards or getting locked up in Big Ben. We in any doubt about what it required. need not necessarily go that far, but we need some form We must also be careful, as Back Benchers who want of sanction. We need to look at all the processes that to ensure that announcements are made in this House ensure that the House can operate as the voice of the rather than being pre-spun to the press and elsewhere, people. that we do not end up complaining that too many I have come roughly to the end of my 10 minutes. As statements are being made and we do not have enough a member of the Backbench Business Committee and a time to spend on substantive legislative business. For former member of the Procedure Committee, I am very another couple of months, I will carry on serving in pleased to see this first substantive motion. It has been another Chamber, and that is a common complaint driven by Back Benchers to ensure that Parliament there. We have too many set-piece statements that do asserts itself without having to say, “Pretty please” to not amount to very much and people find it hard to see the Government. anything key, important or new in them. Those three words have all been used at various times to describe the 9.18 pm test for whether statements should be made in this House. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): As a minority party I sat on the Benches opposite during the last Parliament Member, I am of course disqualified from membership and heard many statements that did not contain anything of the Backbench Business Committee, but happily, I much new. It might have been that the Prime Minister am not disqualified from participating in the debate, wanted to identify himself with a policy, but the policy which so far has involved many of the Members who itself was not new, and at times we wondered why have worked very hard on that Committee. statements were being made. While we want to press the The Leader of the House helped us by canvassing point that statements should be made in this House suggestions as to where we might go from here. It is rather than being presented through the media or at important to use the motion not just as a “wailing wall” other set-piece events, we do not want to end up in a exercise to talk about every past transgression on statements, ridiculous situation. or to compare how many press briefings this Government The Leader of the House made some useful suggestions. give compared with the previous Government. There is We should not always have oral statements with up to guilt all around, so we need to consider how we go an hour of questions. Often the questions become repetitive forward. If the motion is passed tonight, it will go to the and, just as Minister’s statements are accused of spin, Procedure Committee, but what will it do? so too the questions and the replies can be accused of One basic problem touched on by the right hon. counter-spin. It cuts both ways. Are there intermediate Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) is that the arrangements that we could have between a written ministerial code as such is deemed to be in the charge of statement, which involves no questions or time for the Prime Minister as opposed to the House. One of the questions, and an oral statement accompanied by a things that I would want to see the Procedure Committee lengthy opportunity for questions? My hon. Friend the do is to draw up a House code of accountability that Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) referred would apply to Ministers and to Select Committee earlier to a possible gradation of statements. As the Chairs if making statements or bringing serious matters— Leader of the House suggested, if a statement were 273 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 274 Statements Statements available in writing, it could then be the subject of We need to ensure, however, that we have a good questions without the statement being rehearsed in the balance in what we ask of the Government, because we House. do not want the business of the House to become dominated by set-piece statements and questions. We Stephen Pound: When I made that intervention, I may also want live debates and good interaction in those have unwittingly caused offence to certain Members debates. I appreciate why the Backbench Business representing rural constituencies. The point I was trying Committee has singled out this issue for the first debate to make was that a review such as the 2013 review of the under its lead—it is correct in the light of recent experience Rural Payments Agency surely is not in the same scale and also experiences in the previous Parliament. However, of immediacy as some of the other statements, such as with everybody making accusations, we should bear in on the implementation of the Bribery Act 2010. Does mind one of the wisest adages I have ever heard about my hon. Friend accept that we could have a code of politics: irony in politics is just hypocrisy with panache. prioritisation on this, perhaps even a hierarchy of needs? Hearing many of the complaints that each side of the House is making against the other about what different Mark Durkan: I fully agree with my hon. Friend, Governments have done reminds me of that. We need although as always the question will be: who makes the to remember that Back-Bench Members are not free judgment, who makes the call? However, so long as from sin either. people think that an honest judgment has been made and a fair call attempted, the House would be broadly 9.29 pm satisfied. It should always be the case that, if a written Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker, statement is made without the chance for questions, for allowing me to make a brief contribution to this there should perhaps be a business slot early in the debate, as the only member of the Backbench Business following week in which people can, if they want to, ask Committee from the new intake—a representative, if questions about a statement. Perhaps there should be you like, of what the hon. Member for Stretford and an opportunity for questions to be asked about all the Urmston (Kate Green) called the geographically and written statements made in the previous week. procedurally lost in this House. The other reason why, I do not understand why the House does not sit until as a new Member, I stood to serve on the Committee half-past 2 on a Tuesday. I understand the argument on was that, like many new Members, I fought long and the Monday—that Members are travelling from hard to get to this place. It is the greatest honour of my constituencies and want to spend the weekend with life to be here representing the people of Battersea. I their families in their constituencies—but I do not want this House and this Parliament at centre stage, at understand why we wait until half-past 2 on a Tuesday. the heart of national life. There should be more early-day business, perhaps on In the brief time that I have been here, I have been Tuesday, and in fact one window for early-day business struck by the breadth of knowledge that exists among could be specifically for ministerial statements. That Back-Bench colleagues in all parts of the House. It might be an opportunity for people to have a round-up would do much for the reputation of this place if that of free-ranging questions about matters that were the knowledge were given wider prominence, which is something subject of written ministerial statements the previous that might be more possible if the attention of the week, and Ministers would have to be available on that nation and the media were focused more on the statements basis. to which Back Benchers can respond. Instead, much of As I understand it, in the Scottish Parliament, Ministers that knowledge and expertise is heard at times when have to be available to answer questions on a fairly very little attention is paid to the House. free-ranging basis. We could have a special question A number of Members have referred to the demands of time slot—it could be done Westminster Hall-style—in the 24-hour rolling news media. The situation is difficult, the Chamber almost as a special committee of the because although it would be very easy—and right—to House, if we do not want to transgress on to other condemn policy leaks to the media, the practicalities of things. There are ways and means to ensure that, even if delivering on that are not that straightforward, as we a statement is tabled in the first instance as a written discussed a little bit in our Committee. Although it statement, we can ask questions about it and hold would be tempting—some Members this evening have people to account, so that the procedure of the written been very tempted by this—to dream up draconian statement is not abused. That applies to some of the punishments for Ministers on the spot, what we need is issues raised by other Members about the hours of the a well-thought-through, workable protocol that Ministers House and the times at which we sit. understand and, crucially, can use to drive a culture It is important to have better advance notice of change in their private offices and Departments. This statements. Again, the Leader of the House was helpful issue is not just about Ministers; it is a whole culture of when he said that perhaps more work could be done to government. We need to ensure that the mantra is ensure that there is advance notice of oral statements. I changed from “In the Loop” to “In the House”— sympathise with the hon. Member for Stretford and [Interruption.] Hon. Members heard it here first. Urmston (Kate Green) who spoke as a new Member on Let me close by making a point that I do not think this point. It is bizarre that we can find in our papers all has been touched on in the debate so far, concerning the written ministerial statements, which we cannot question, responsibility of the Opposition. This point would be for that day, but nothing about oral statements, unless the same whoever was in government or opposition, but we have been listening to the radio and have guessed to some extent it has been a little too easy to sit and what topics are likely to be the subject of oral statements. nod, and to see this issue as an open goal or a way to If we could have more advance notice, it would help us kick the Government of the day. However, if the new in our preparation of questions. approach is to work, it will also make demands on the 275 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 276 Statements Statements [Jane Ellison] have described. Parliament must still play—it has to—its traditional role of holding the Executive to account. It Opposition. I will leave hon. Members with this thought: is in the nature of the debates we hold in this House— we will know that the new approach is working when a tonight’s is a particularly good example of Parliament journalist says to an Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, in action, where there is some degree of cross-party “We’ve heard that such-and-such might be announced consensus about the issues—that the very act of having today, and we’d like you to comment,” and the shadow elected representatives interacting in a civilised way can spokesman says, “I will wait for the Minister’s statement act as a check against this frenetic pace of the debate and respond in the House.” I commend the motion to going on in the outside world where information moves the House. around so quickly. I conclude by recognising, as I think all hon. Members 9.32 pm would recognise, that we cannot turn the clock back to some kind of golden age in which Parliament is, as the James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): Leader of the House said, the main channel of As another new Member, I want to reflect on some of communication out to the nation. Those days have the fundamental principles that the motion that we are gone. However, Parliament needs to reassert its traditional debating represents. It raises some fundamental questions role—I view this as an important part of my role as a about the nature of our parliamentary democracy and new MP—as the place where important matters are the role of Parliament in modern society. Why is this debated and where the Executive are held to account. evening’s debate and the motion moved by my hon. That is why I will support my hon. Friend’s motion. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) so important? All hon. Members would recognise that the gap between this place and those who elected us here— 9.38 pm between Parliament and ordinary people—has grown Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Any debate that into a chasm over the past few years. That is why this runs the gamut from Pericles to Jimmy Thomas, those debate is so important. two great statesmen, has to be fascinating, but I think In my first few weeks as a Member of Parliament, I we are in the unusual situation of all agreeing on the have spent time reflecting on what my constituents want problem, but none agreeing on the terms of the solution. me to do in this place. Clearly, the people of Halesowen It is part of the legend of this building that when that and Rowley Regis want me to stand up for their interests. glorious fresh, clean and energetic Government of 1997 However, having spent time on the doorstep during the swept into power, we set up something called the election, I believe that there is also a sense among our Modernisation of the House Committee, which after a constituents that, despite all their cynicism about Parliament, very short time was suspected of going so native that they want this place still to be the place where big there was a move to set up a “Modernisation of that decisions are made and where the life of the nation is Modernisation of the House Committee Committee”! debated. They want us to hold the Government of the Whether that happened or not, I do not know, but day to account and to ask difficult questions that probe change was slowly achieved. and challenge them. I believe that, despite their reservations, What we need to ask ourselves is: what would be the our constituents want Parliament to reassert its role as consequence of a self-denying ordinance linked to a the custodian of the national interest, which is why I structural series of procedures—a protocol—on the believe this evening’s debate is so important. Floor of this House? We need to realise that Ministers However, I recognise that, as other right hon. and would immediately lose control of the agenda; they hon. Members have said, there are difficult challenges would actually lose control of news management—the with reinstating the principle that Ministers should one thing that Ministers hold close to their breasts and come to Parliament to make their key announcements. near to their hearts, the one thing that they love above As other hon. Members have pointed out, we are living all, which is to control the information grid. They in an information age, when information is spread would lose it. around the world and around this country at high I invite hon. Members to picture the scene, lean back velocity, and where social networking sites can instantly and close their eyes; it is something that often happens produce informed—or sometimes not-so-informed— when I am speaking, but on this occasion, they can do debates about the issues of the day. We have Twitter and so with my approval. The Minister rises at 3.30 in the blogs, and, as others have pointed out, we have a afternoon. She or he starts to make a statement. In 24-hour media culture that demands instant comment. simpler days, that statement would be followed by comments It is insatiable in its desire for instant comment. from the Opposition, and then, when the Liberal Democrat Modern democracy and this Parliament sit in a world stood up to speak, everyone would leave. When they that is moving forward at a frenetic pace. Some arrived at St Stephen’s entrance, they would find the developments of the information age that impact on the place surrounded by the rapacious reptiles of the press, processes of Parliament are positive. We have a more who would have been interviewing people on the Minister’s informed public, for example—a public who are better statement while the Minister was still speaking. able to access the workings of Government. We have a We need to arrive at a point at which a self-denying much higher degree of transparency about the workings ordinance is accepted. I am no friend of the tradition of of Government and Parliament, but there is much more Cromwell, the butcher of Drogheda, and in any event to do. he experienced a degree of failure in forcing the principle I welcome my hon. Friend’s motion. It raises questions on his own people; but were we to achieve that, at some about how to reinforce and develop the traditional role stage—be it on the “Today” programme, Nick Ferrari’s of Parliament in the context of the modern world that I programme on LBC, or any other medium—a Minister 277 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 278 Statements Statements of the Crown would have to say to an interrogator, “I 9.45 pm cannot answer that question, because I have not made a Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Thank you, statement to the House.” Mr Speaker, for calling me to make my maiden speech The thought of my ever becoming a Minister is a in this very important debate on both the role of Back flight of fancy too far, but were I ever to be in such a Benchers and, most importantly, how we can protect position—and I have to say that on occasion my mind the power and authority that this Chamber has had has roamed in that way—and were a constituent to ask throughout several centuries of our history. me, “What will you say tomorrow about the Terms of First, I must say that I am very relieved that I managed Reference for the Commission on the Funding of Care to arrive here to make my maiden speech without and Support?” I would have to say to that constituent, incurring any serious injury. The first time I sought to “Sorry, I cannot tell you, because I must make a statement catch your eye, Mr Speaker, was during the Queen’s to the House.” A lot of constituents would ask, “Who Speech debate. I moved on quickly, however, because comes first, parliamentarians or the people?” That is my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham the degree of the disconnect between us and the public (Daniel Kawczynski) had secured a debate in Westminster at the present time. So if we are to do this, we must Hall on an issue of interest to me, and I quickly wrote somehow divide the day-to-day reports, the annual to tell you, Mr Speaker, that I would like to speak in it, reports and the regular reviews that could be placed in but then, unfortunately, my hon. Friend had to go to the Library from statements of this particular kind. hospital for a couple of weeks. I hope that that was not We must accept that at some stage a parliamentarian—a a result of my desire to speak, but I suspect that it Minister—will do the unheard of, the unprecedented, might have been because a fortnight later I asked if I and say to an interviewer on the radio or television, could speak in the debate on the emergency Budget “No, I cannot answer that question.” Once that has only then to finish up in hospital myself for a week. I happened, a whole new set of terms of reference—new am relieved to arrive here undamaged on this occasion, terms of trade—will have been established, and we will therefore. be moving in a different direction. Until we have done It is a convention that Members refer to their constituency that, there will always be the pressure—and sometimes in their maiden speech, and I would like to do that. it will be unbearable—to imply that the Minister does Montgomeryshire is a beautiful constituency, and I not know the answer to the question, when in fact the have lived there all my life. Indeed, although my family Minister is rightly saying, “I do know the answer to the encouraged me to move away, I always resisted because question”, but it would be inappropriate and disrespectful I simply love Montgomeryshire, especially its uplands. of Parliament for that Minister to give that answer there That love is what led me to become president of the and then. Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales for the last That is why I have concluded, reluctantly, that we few years, a position I have had to relinquish since must consider the issue of sanctions. I rather like one becoming a Member of this House. idea, although I do not necessarily favour the decapitation Montgomeryshire is also a culturally diverse constituency, of the entire Front Bench suggested by the bloodthirsty where the Welsh language plays a very important part. Member for the constituency formerly known as Kettering, It is probably the dominant language in a third of the but now for ever to be known as Hollobone Central. constituency. When I was elected as a Member of You, Mr Speaker, know more about the ways of this Parliament, my first seven words were in the Welsh building than most. I cannot recall the last occasion on language. I said: which a miscreant Minister was dragged to the Bar of “Dev in Falch gael fy ethol fel Aelod Seneddol dros Sir the House. Dragged to the Bar, maybe, but not to the Drefaldwyn.” Bar of the House. What better, what more salutary example could there be of the power of Parliament for Well, perhaps that is 10 words, Mr Speaker, but I knew the people—not for Parliament, but for the public, for I might be testing your patience, and I should hasten to the people—than some shivering Minister trembling at explain that that just means that I am very proud to be the Bar, looking around sheepishly, aware of the dreadful elected to represent Montgomeryshire as a Member of calumny that has been perpetrated, and excoriated by Parliament. I thought that that was the right thing for Members on all sides? Would that not be delicious? me to do in that constituency. A second convention is that the Member making I think we must seriously consider that option, or their maiden speech should refer to their predecessor, perhaps another. It was suggested earlier that placing and I would like to make reference to more than just my someone backwards on a horse would be entirely acceptable. immediate predecessor. I was doing some research and I Indeed, listening to one of my speeches might be painful discovered the most incredible coincidence. I thought I enough. However, we must accept that the problem is was the first person in my extended family ever to have here for all to see. The solution is for us to define. We any interest in politics, yet I discovered that in 1880 a have some way to go tonight before we define it, and I certain Arthur Humphreys-Owen, a Liberal Member, fear that when we do define it, we cannot do so in owned the house where I live. He was followed by Lord isolation from the issue of sanctions. Davies of Llandinam, a very great man in Welsh history, This has been an extraordinary debate. Whatever and he in turn was followed by Clement Davies. Some happens from this day on will be different, because current Members might remember him; he was a great tonight marks a watershed. I salute the new Backbench leader of the Liberal party. It is said in Montgomeryshire Business Committee and its magnificently able, intellectually that many of the Liberal Democrats there voted for me brilliant and gifted Chair for leading us in this direction. because it was an opportunity for them to vote yet Things will never be the same again; but how they will again for a Davies, and that that probably contributed be, and what they will be, is up to us tonight. to quite a substantial part of my majority. 279 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 280 Statements Statements [Glyn Davies] 9.53 pm
My immediate predecessor was Lembit Öpik, and I Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I pay tribute want to pay tribute to him. He was a man of great talent to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) in many, many areas of activity—and I must say that in for making his maiden speech in what is, in many ways, some areas he achieved a level of excellence that I am an appropriate debate in which to get one’s first spurs. I sure I will not be able to match. He served his constituents congratulate him and say well done on that. I particularly very well, however, and I wish him well in his new enjoyed his tribute to his immediate predecessor; I think chosen careers. that the whole House enjoyed those comments. I was also struck by his reference to Clement Davies, because I am often asked in the constituency how I have of a perhaps little-known historical fact. He was leader found being a Member of Parliament. Like my hon. of the Liberal party at the only time in history when Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), who is two different party leaders with the same name have no longer in her place, I have said that it is a wonderful fought a general election—I am referring to the great experience to be here; it is a wonderful experience for Clement Attlee and Clement Davies. Support for the me to be speaking in this Chamber, representing the Liberal party was perhaps somewhat less then than it is people of Montgomeryshire. That is a great thrill, as is today, but perhaps at the next general election its support being part of what happens in this House. will return to its rightful place, where it was in 1945. That brings me to the debate in which we are engaging This is an important debate, and a number of hon. at the moment. Since I have been here, we have seen Members from across the Chamber have said that a real some amazing things happen. We have seen two of the problem needs to be addressed. I am a new Member—only great parties of Britain come together to form a dynamic elected in May this year—but I have been struck by the coalition, rising phoenix-like from the ashes and number of occasions on which Ministers have been smouldering embers of the Labour party—I am sure admonished by you, Mr Speaker, and by Opposition that it will be able to recover. It was a dramatic event to Members for repeatedly giving statements to the media have been here in the presence of and to have witnessed. and then coming to the House. They have had to apologise for that on at least one occasion. I know that I sat at the back of this Chamber watching and the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire said that that is listening to the statement on the Saville inquiry. I was in a particularly strong censure for Ministers and something some sort of enrapture, because it was a most wonderful that he would not wish to put himself through, but it occasion. I am certain that it was the sheer power of the seems as though the current crop of Ministers are not words and the speeches that brought that hugely damaging as concerned by the course of action that they might issue to a conclusion that is to the benefit of us all. The need to take to right the situation. There has seemingly reputation and presence of this House, and its historical been a willingness to continue merrily along and to give context in which we speak, helped to solve what was a statements to the media despite what has been made dreadful scar on our history. very clear by Mr Speaker and by criticisms from the This is a very special place, and I think we probably Opposition. all know that. Several Members, including the hon. I hope that following tonight’s debate, Ministers will Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), who spoke take the issue more seriously than they have so far. As a before me, have made reference to the issue of where we new Back-Bench Member, I believe that the sanctity of go from here. Dealing with that is the next step, because Parliament should be paramount and that Ministers there is general agreement across the whole House that should come here before they make statements elsewhere. there is an issue that we need to address. I must say that It undermines my role, in many ways, if I am contacted I think it is a matter for the Procedure Committee. We by the media on issues such as Building Schools for the must await its response and take what it says seriously, Future when we have had five different versions of the because dealing with this matter is complex. list of schools that will be affected around the country. I understand that the latest list is inaccurate, too. The There is a temptation for us to move into the realms way in which that whole issue has been handled leaves a of various punishments, but I am not going to do that. lot to be desired and many hares have been set running. What I will say—this is the only comment that I wish to In my constituency, people’s hopes have been raised and make on this matter—is that to be asked to apologise in dashed and raised and dashed and that is not a professional this House for committing something that we all consider way of going on. Something needs to be done about to be a serious misdemeanour is a serious punishment. that. If I ever became a Minister and such a punishment was visited on me, I would consider that to be a huge blow. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Does the hon. All the other punishments would be small in comparison Gentleman accept that the Secretary of State came to with the damage I would feel to my reputation if that the House and apologised on that matter, which does happened. So I do not think that we should underplay not seem particularly relevant to our debate? It was rare this. for shadow Ministers, when they were in government, I have come to this House to represent the people of to come and apologise and I think that we should Montgomeryshire and my constituency, and to represent accept that that was a genuine apology which was Wales, the nation that I love. I have come here to do received very well in this House. what I can to protect and enhance the reputation of this House. Contributing to this debate and supporting the Chris Williamson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman intention espoused so eloquently by my hon. Friend the for his intervention and I freely acknowledge that the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) at its outset is Secretary of State came and apologised, but that brings what I really want to do. me back to my point. Is an apology or the need to make 281 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 282 Statements Statements an apology sufficient deterrent? Surely what we want on Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) about both sides of the House is to ensure that there is no giving embargoes legal force and changing the civil need for Ministers to come and apologise. As the Secretary service code. of State has been so willing to make an apology on five separate occasions, that undermines the value of that John Hemming: I understand that Select Committees censure on a Minister. If we go back 20 or 30 years, frequently issue their reports under embargoes and perhaps an apology from the Minister might have been obviously it is a contempt of Parliament to publish a more significant deterrent than it seems to be today. them prior to the embargo. How does the hon. Gentleman We need to find an alternative mechanism to ensure think the Opposition would perceive a situation in that these sorts of concerns and problems do not arise which the Government issued something under embargo, in the future. thereby constraining them from commenting on it? I come from a local government background and Chris Williamson: Clearly, Opposition Members would there is a long-standing tradition about such issues in have to pay cognisance to that. If we were to adopt the local government. As a former leader of Derby city embargo approach, there would need to be discipline on council, I know that my most significant announcement both sides of the House. If we are to acknowledge that as leader would be about the budget and the setting of Parliament is paramount and that we should get statements the council tax, and it would be routine for us to before they go to the media, a degree of discipline embargo the statement that I was going to make to the would be required on both sides. I believe that there is a council chamber. Perhaps that is something that we way forward. ought to adopt in this House: Ministers’ statements could be embargoed and that embargo could have some John Hemming: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting legal force. Perhaps that would be a way of ensuring that the embargo would rest merely within Parliament, that the House is treated with the gravitas that, in my which is, in a sense, what currently happens with statements, view, it deserves. or that documents could be issued to the media with an embargo on them? Mark Durkan: Does that not raise the point that if we took up the Leader of the House’s idea of having Chris Williamson: Such details would need to be clearer advance notice of oral statements, the protocol worked out. That might be a way forward, but could we should be that as soon as notice of a statement were trust the media with an embargo? I am not sure. We given, an embargo would kick in? We would probably would need to consider the issues, work out the detail then need to change the civil service code as well to and find an appropriate way forward by which Parliament prevent leaks and briefings taking place at civil service would not feel that it was being held in contempt on level rather than from Ministers or Members of the occasion by the way in which Ministers conduct themselves. House. As I have said, the strong cross-party consensus on this matter means that the will is definitely there. I simply hope that Ministers will take our concerns on board Chris Williamson: My hon. Friend makes a particularly and that the House can find a better way of doing cogent point. That would certainly be a valuable way business so that we do not have the problems that we forward. have seen far too much of in the short time that I have I know that all new Governments have a political been a Member of the House. agenda and want to get their legislation on to the statute book, but I have been struck by the breakneck 10.5 pm speed at which the new Administration are seemingly Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great determined to railroad legislation through the House. pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Derby North Perhaps that is one reason why there have been so many (Chris Williamson), who made some interesting points. leaks to the media. The House is not being given In some respects, I wish that he had been here in the sufficient time to scrutinise legislation. This is a cross-party previous Parliament, because his frustration would have point; I have heard hon. Members on the Government been extreme. Benches express similar concerns. The Academies Bill is I have been very impressed by all the speeches made a case in point: there are significant reservations on the by new Back Benchers. It is a great tribute to them and Opposition side, but there are also reservations on the a safeguard that this Parliament really will be the home Government side and it is regrettable that measures are of democracy. It would be wrong not to acknowledge being railroaded through by the new Administration your presence here tonight, Mr Speaker, for the whole despite those concerns. debate, thus giving it added impetus. That is much A cross-party consensus on finding a better way appreciated, as is the fact that the Leader of the House forward seems to have emerged. How long has this has stayed here for the whole debate, as has the shadow Parliament been sitting now? I have been elected for Leader of the House, who, in one of the most helpful about 10 weeks and I do not know how many times you comments, praised my hon. Friend the Member for have been called on, Mr Speaker, through various points Hollobone Central for introducing it. I always regard of order, to admonish Ministers for making statements him as my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering before coming to the House. That simply cannot go on; (Mr Hollobone), who introduced the debate in absolutely it just is not good enough. We have to find a better way the right style and manner. In years to come, people will of doing business in the Chamber. I hope that we can look back to his speech as a reference on this very find cross-party consensus on that, and I hope that important matter. Ministers will take this issue more seriously than they My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire have hitherto. I hope also that they will take the possibilities (Mr Knight) has also stayed here for the whole debate. on board, particularly given the comments of my hon. Of course, we hope, as the Backbench Business Committee, 283 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 284 Statements Statements [Mr Peter Bone] his decision to allow Government Back Benchers—I am delighted that the Chief Whip is on the Front Bench that we will kick the football to him to look at when his to hear this—to table amendments when scrutinising new Committee is formed. While I am praising hon. the details of a Bill in Committee and then to vote in the Members who have spoken previously, it would be way in which they think fit, rather than according to the wrong of me not to mention my hon. Friend the Member party line, will empower Back Benchers enormously. for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). We go back a very That will no doubt occasionally lead to the Government long way from my time in Wales. I am pleased to see losing a vote, but that should be regarded as a victory him in the House, and he will be an active and able for Parliament, not a defeat for the Government. Member. The Government have also supported reform of the Probably the last hon. Member to speak tonight will Select Committee system, meaning that the Chairs are be the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha elected by the whole House rather than appointed by Engel), the new Chairman of the Backbench Business the Whips. Equally, the Government’s desire not to Committee. She has got off to an absolutely flying start, programme Bills is a significant advance. Back Benchers and I should like formally to congratulate her on what will now be able to question the detail of Bills, whereas she has done so far. whole sections of Bills were not discussed during the It is a great privilege to speak in the first debate to be last Parliament because of programme orders. However, held by the Backbench Business Committee on what is there has been some backsliding on that commitment. an historic night. For the first time, it has been left to The motion sets out that the most important Government Back Benchers in Parliament, not the Executive or policy announcements should be made to Parliament Opposition Front Benchers, to decide what should be first, not leaked to the media in advance while Back debated in the House on a substantive motion. The Benchers are left completely in the dark, because otherwise hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) may yet still how are we supposed to ask the most searching questions divide the House, which would be even better, because and properly represent our constituents? It is embarrassing we would know the number of hon. Members who and wholly unacceptable if the local radio station rings support the other view to that taken by the Committee. up to ask, “What do you think about the statement?” The motion that we have chosen to debate goes to the when I did not even know that there would be such a heart of readjusting the balance of power between the statement and it then tells me what is in the statement so Executive and Parliament. I want to declare that I will that I can comment. Of course, that has happened be equally rude to Labour Front Benchers and the under not only this Government, but the previous Labour Government and to the Conservatives. I will Government. It makes a mockery of the legislative blame them both in equal measure, so there is no process when the Press Gallery is packed for relatively partisanship in that. unimportant and therefore unleaked announcements, Under the last Labour Administration, power was but entirely empty for the most important statements. increasingly removed from Back Benchers and instead There was an exception to that under the previous handed to an arrogant, dismissive and control-freak Government because the right hon. Member for Blackburn Government. That started under the Blair Administration, (Mr Straw) had a tendency not to leak statements. I with his concentration on public relations and presentation, remember one occasion on which his statement was not and got worse under the Brown Administration, when leaked in advance, and the House and the Press Gallery the need to control every minute detail was the rule of were packed. Actually, the statement was on a Government the day. As a result of that and other recent events, U-turn, but that showed what could happen if statements public opinion of Parliament is at an all-time low. were not leaked. Something clearly needs to be changed. We have heard about the history of Chancellors The big question for the House is whether anything being fired for leaks and people teeing up on the golf has changed with the new Government. Are they any course suddenly to find that they were fired, but I will less interested in PR, presentation and spin? At the very not go over that. We have also heard many references to best, the jury is still considering its verdict. I say that your statements, Mr Speaker, on the fact that Parliament partly because I will be highly critical of the Government’s must hear statements on important policy first. I remember failure to put Parliament first in certain respects—in that the previous Speaker was sometimes so red in the particular, leaking information to the press and other face with rage that Ministers had leaked in advance that media in advance of announcing it in Parliament—but I thought that his blood pressure would go through the on the plus side, we have two extraordinary parliamentarians roof. However, he did not have the success that you have in the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of had, Mr Speaker, at getting Ministers to the Dispatch the House, who believe in putting Parliament first and Box to apologise. It was to the great credit of the Home have demonstrated that not only by their statements, Secretary and the Education Secretary that they did so, but by their actions. It is also quite clear that the Prime but that shows part of the problem, as several hon. Minister believes in making the Executive more accountable Members have said, because however grovelling the to Parliament and increasing the role of Back Benchers. apology is, it is not enough to stop the leaking—it Clearly, the decision to set up the Backbench Business continues. Committee was a prime indication of the Government’s I have spoken to several Ministers and ex-Ministers. support for Parliament. They did not want to go on record this evening, but they There are other areas in which the Government have explained the thought process behind leaking information. put Parliament first. The Prime Minister made the It is partly to ensure that the press comments on the remarkably self-confident decision to give up the right particularly juicy bits that Ministers want to get into the to choose the date of the next general election, which media, but it is also because of the news cycle. Ministers removes a massive advantage for the Government. Equally, want to get information out for the weekend papers and 285 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Information for Backbenchers on 286 Statements Statements radio programmes, so they leak it then. On the day of Mr Bone: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s the announcement, they ensure that the statement is intervention, and I entirely agree. I hope that the Procedure again leaked. Then, they appear in the television studios Committee will consider a wide range of measures and give interviews on it. It was very hard for previous affecting Back Benchers and then make recommendations Labour Ministers to deny that they had leaked a statement that the Backbench Business Committee might put on when I had seen them on the television discussing it the Order Paper. The great advantage of the new system several hours earlier. Finally, they get the benefit of the is that we do not have to wait for the Government to put statement and the comment afterwards, and, until we such business on the Order Paper; we as Back Benchers find a solution—a threat, if the House likes—in order can do so. to stop them doing that, it will not end. My solution might sound overly harsh, but it is time I have been very taken by some ideas tonight. The to stop pussy-footing around the issue, because it is idea from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) simply unacceptable that Ministers inform the media of stringing them from the roof was quite novel, but I before Parliament. think that we are against capital punishment. The idea from the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), who is sitting by the Bar of the House, had Chris Skidmore: The hon. Member for Leicester South some attraction as well. I do not know whether the (Sir Peter Soulsby) just mentioned the difference between Mayor of London has entered into this debate, but he leaks and statements, and that is important. The Minister had Parliament square cleaned last night so that none is ultimately responsible for the statement to the House, of the tents and protesters is now there. That large open but there is a difference between the Department and space is now available, and it was suggested to me that, the Minister, because they are not always in total control if we put a large stocks there and the Speaker said that a of their Department in terms of who is leaking what Minister had to stay in them for several days, that information. I should be interested to know my hon. would—I fear, at an instance—stop the leaking. However, Friend’s views on leaks and who is responsible for them. I then remembered that it would be against European Is the Minister ultimately responsible, or would my Union law—although that is another reason why we hon. Friend allow some leeway because somebody else should go ahead with the idea. in the Department might be?
John Hemming: It is against the European convention on human rights, which is to do with the Council of Mr Bone: Absolutely not. The Ministers in this Europe, not the European Council. Government are completely on top of their Departments and the idea that anyone would dare to leak without Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is quite right, but I their authority is not acceptable. did not want the truth to get in the way of my having a Let us take a situation as an example. Something is go at the European Union. leaked and comes before the Select Committee. The Earlier, we commented on how the matter was taken Minister explains that it was not him who leaked, but more seriously in the past, and the better way forward is Joe Bloggs at the Department—who, by the way, has to refer it to the Procedure Committee. However, I now gone. But if it happens again and again and a should like to suggest some more practical measures on fourth time, the Minister really should resign. If we are how we might deal with Ministers who continue to leak. serious about the issue, that is what should happen. First, if the Procedure Committee or another Committee thinks that a Minister or their Department had leaked, Sir Peter Soulsby: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Minister should have to go and see the relevant that it is important that Ministers take responsibility Select Committee. If the Department leaks again, perhaps, not only for the overt statements that they make themselves, Mr Speaker, you could demand that the Minister make but for the covert leaks made on their behalf? a statement. If they leak again, perhaps we could have a yellow-card system. I think that I read somewhere in a newspaper about a yellow and red-card system that had Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is right. The one thing much merit. So, with a yellow card the Minister would that this Government have been bad at is leaking covertly; be on their last warning, and then they might have a red the previous Government could teach this one a lot card, meaning that they would have to resign as a about that, although I hope that this Government would Minister forthwith. That, I hope, would really end the not take lessons from them. leaking. If we had such a system, or if the Procedure We have heard a lot about the 24-hour news cycle, Committee had an ultimate sanction, that would stop and we should take advantage of that. The Order Paper the leaks. That is what the debate is about. It relates to a should show that there is to be a statement, for example, serious proposal to put this mother of Parliaments at on Lords Reform, and there should be no leak of that the heart of democracy, and until we stop such abuse of statement. We would know that it would take place on, Parliament we will never really do our job of scrutinising say, Tuesday at a certain time. I guarantee that the the Executive. House and the Press Gallery would be packed and that Sky News and BBC News 24 would cut into their Sir Peter Soulsby: Does the hon. Gentleman agree programmes and switch their broadcasting to the House that it is important that the Procedure Committee deals to see what was being said. That is the situation that we with leaks as well as with statements? That is a very can and must achieve. small point, but the motion before us refers specifically to “statements”. Does he agree that it is important that I shall finish now, because most Members want to we also have the opportunity to ask the Procedure hear what the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee Committee to look at leaks as well? has to say. 287 Information for Backbenchers on 20 JULY 2010 Business of the House 288 Statements 10.21 pm but in the House.” That was a fantastic soundbite. I very much thank all Members who have taken part in Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I this debate and in such an absolutely massive, historic cannot begin to say what a pleasure it is to wind up this event. debate. It is absolutely historic; it is the very first time that Back Benchers have chosen the subject for debate Question put and agreed to. in Back-Bench time. The number of Members who are Resolved, here and who have taken part in the debate, when there That this House commends the Speaker on the action he has is a one-line Whip and they could have gone home, is taken over the past year to reassert the principle that Ministers testament to its enormous importance to everybody in ought to make statements to the House before they are made the House. elsewhere; notes that paragraph 9.1 of the Ministerial Code says that when Parliament is in session, the most important announcements This debate has been historic not just for Back Benchers of Government policy should be made in the first instance in and those on the Backbench Business Committee but Parliament; believes that compliance with this principle is essential for the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). for backbenchers to be able to represent the interests of their We all enjoyed hearing his maiden speech. I was delighted constituents and hold the Government to account; and invites the that a maiden speech was made in Back-Bench business Procedure Committee to consider how the rules of the House time, so I thank the hon. Gentleman very much. could be better used or, if necessary, changed to ensure compliance with this principle and to develop a protocol for the release of This debate is important because it goes to the heart information. of what we are trying to do on the Backbench Business Committee—that is, address some of the frustrations and anger that Back Benchers have felt for years and BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE years. We want, as Back Benchers, to do our job better, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and the job that we want to do is hold the Executive to Order No. 15), account. That is important because if we do our job That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the better, the Executive do their job better. It is an absolute name of Sir George Young relating to Use of the Chamber win-win; when the Executive do their job better, they (United Kingdom Youth Parliament) may be proceeded with, make better law and Parliament looks much better to though opposed, until any hour.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) the outside world. The House divided: Ayes 139, Noes 10. This debate is all about carrot and stick; that is also Division No. 33] [10.27 pm what the Committee is about, and I hope that we will develop the theme in the future. The carrot is that we AYES would all, especially Back Benchers, do our job better and that we would get rid of the frustration and anger Alexander, rh Danny Dinenage, Caroline Andrew, Stuart Dodds, rh Mr Nigel at our feeling that our power to hold the Executive to Bacon, Mr Richard Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. account, which we should be able to exercise, is being Baker, Norman Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen taken away from us. We can do that job and have a Baker, Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie better Parliament. Barclay, Stephen Duddridge, James The stick is something that we hope to give today to Barwell, Gavin Dunne, Mr Philip the Procedure Committee. I thank the right hon. Member Bebb, Guto Durkan, Mark for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), its Chair, for being Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellison, Jane here throughout the debate and taking note of everything Berry, Jake Evans, Graham that has been said today. Perhaps he will come back as Birtwistle, Gordon Evans, Jonathan Blackman, Bob Farron, Tim quickly as possible with the stick—suspension from the Blackwood, Nicola Francois, rh Mr Mark ceiling, birching or lynching; we are open to everything. Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark He can bring back the stick and we can have a proper Bray, Angie George, Andrew debate about how we as Back Benchers can hold the Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Executive better to account. Brooke, Annette Glen, John I thank all Members who have taken part in the Bruce, Fiona Goodwill, Mr Robert debate and made sure, with some notable exceptions, Bruce, rh Malcolm Gove, rh Michael that is has been sensible. [Laughter.] I am not looking Bryant, Chris Graham, Richard at anyone. We need to start looking at the role of the Buckland, Mr Robert Hames, Duncan Burley, Mr Aidan Hancock, Matthew media and the role of Parliament and at why, over so Burns, Conor Harper, Mr Mark many years, the problem has got worse and worse. I Burstow, Mr Paul Harvey, Nick think that there have been some very sensible suggestions Byles, Dan Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan that the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire will take Cairns, Alun Heald, Mr Oliver away with him and discuss with the Procedure Committee. Carmichael, Mr Alistair Heath, Mr David We have been talking about Back-Bench time and Cash, Mr William Hemming, John Back-Bench business for 400 years. The fact that we are, Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon for the first time, having such an important debate Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick about our modern Parliament is testament to the Colvile, Oliver Horwood, Martin Howell, John importance of why we, as a Backbench Business Committee, Cooper, Rosie Crabb, Stephen Hughes, Simon need to make a massive success of this. Crockart, Mike Jones, Andrew I thank Members from the new intake who have Davey, Mr Edward Kawczynski, Daniel contributed, especially the hon. Member for Battersea Davies, David T. C. Kelly, Chris (Jane Ellison), who serves on our Committee, and who (Monmouth) Kirby, Simon gave us the soundbite of the evening—“Not in the loop Davies, Glyn Lamb, Norman 289 Business of the House 20 JULY 2010 290
Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Youth Parliament) Leech, Mr John Rosindell, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Russell, Bob Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David 10.39 pm Lidington, Mr David Selous, Andrew The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shannon, Jim the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Simpson, David move, Long, Naomi Skidmore, Chris That this House welcomes the work of the United Kingdom Lopresti, Jack Skinner, Mr Dennis Youth Parliament in providing young people with an opportunity Loughton, Tim Smith, Sir Robert to engage with the political process; notes that the House agreed on 16 March 2009 to allow the Youth Parliament to meet once in Lucas, Caroline Stephenson, Andrew the Chamber; recalls that this meeting took place on 30 October McCartney, Jason Stewart, Iain 2009; and accordingly resolves that the UK Youth Parliament McCrea, Dr William Stuart, Mr Graham should be allowed to meet once a year in the Chamber of this McIntosh, Miss Anne Stunell, Andrew House for the duration of this Parliament. McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Swales, Ian I am glad that it is now past 10 o’clock. Menzies, Mark Swayne, Mr Desmond Mills, Nigel Swinson, Jo Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): On a point of order, Moore, rh Michael Tomlinson, Justin Mr Speaker. Will you confirm that a Division on the Mordaunt, Penny Vara, Mr Shailesh motion would be deferred, but that if the closure were Morris, James Walter, Mr Robert moved tonight, a Division on it would take place here Munt, Tessa Watkinson, Angela Murrison, Dr Andrew and now? Many people watching these proceedings Wharton, James would think it quite strange that we would have a Newton, Sarah White, Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Division now on a closure motion, but that there would Whittaker, Craig be no Division now on the substantive motion. Will you Paice, Mr James Williams, Stephen Pawsey, Mark confirm that? Williamson, Gavin Percy, Andrew Young, rh Sir George Pincher, Christopher Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; his Pugh, Dr John Tellers for the Ayes: point of order helpfully confirms the factual position. Randall, rh Mr John Bill Wiggin and In the event that there were a closure motion, it would, Reckless, Mark Miss Chloe Smith as with all closure motions, as he perceptively interprets, be subject to an immediate vote. In the event that the NOES decision on the substantive motion is a matter of dispute when the voices are collected, a deferred Division will Afriyie, Adam Stewart, Bob be held tomorrow. The hon. Gentleman therefore, as Bone, Mr Peter Weatherley, Mike usual, has an exquisite understanding of procedure. Brady, Mr Graham Wilson, Sammy That fact is now known not only to me but to all Chope, Mr Christopher Members of the House here present. Davies, Philip Tellers for the Noes: Percy, Andrew Mr Philip Hollobone and John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Further Poulter, Dr Daniel Mr David Nuttall to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Would I be right in assuming that if insufficient Members voted on the Question accordingly agreed to. closure motion, that motion would fall? Mr Speaker: There are requisite numbers for these matters, but I tend to take the view of the late Lord Whitelaw that it is advisable to cross a bridge only when one comes to it. Rather than speculate on the hypothetical, we will address that matter when we get there. The hon. Gentleman need not allow his brow to furrow or make himself anxious. He is too big a man for that. Mr Heath: It is splendid that there is so much careful consideration of the procedure that accompanies this motion. The motion would allow for the UK YouthParliament to sit in this place for its annual meeting this year, and annually for the rest of this Parliament, repeating the successful exercise of last October. It is probably not in order for me to say at this stage how much I appreciated the debate that we have just had under the auspices of the Business Committee, but the Government would now expect debates of this nature to be scheduled by that Committee. However, because of the time constraints on the House agreeing this motion and the availability of time before the summer recess, the Government have decided to facilitate the House in reaching a decision by providing time after the moment of interruption. 291 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 292 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Can the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Deputy Leader of the House explain why we need to do (LD): May I help my hon. Friend, and colleagues on this before the summer recess? If he knew a week ago both sides of the House who were positive about the that we needed to do it before the summer recess, why experiment last time, by saying that the feedback from was it not put on the Order Paper below the line so that the young people who participated, particularly some we had advance notice of the Government’s intention? brilliant young women, and brilliant black young women, was that it had transformed their lives and that they had Mr Heath: I have just said that the Government are left this place reinvigorated to argue for British democracy facilitating a process. This is not Government policy: it in a way that I honestly do not think any of us envisaged? is for the House to determine. I see no reason why we So I hope that there will be no backwoods objection to should not debate this issue tonight. We have plenty of that fantastic innovation made only a few months ago. time to debate it tonight—possibly as much time as any Member could reasonably expect to debate an important Mr Heath: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for issue such as this. It is important that we take a decision, those comments, because they are well founded and for the obvious reason that if we could not decide, we speak for the experience that many of us have had in could not allow the UK Youth Parliament to make use speaking to young people who were involved that day. of the facilities at the time when we would invite them Let us remember that the debate took place at a time to do so if this motion were passed. It would therefore when Parliament’s reputation was severely damaged, seem to be entirely sensible, even within the constraints and when young people were increasingly disaffected of procedure in this place, to table a motion to agree to with politics and society. I do not think that any hon. invite the Youth Parliament to use the facilities and, if Member would argue that either of those problems has that is agreed, for it then to do so—rather than the gone away, but I believe that we are making progress. In other way round. 2005 the turnout for 18 to 24-year-olds was estimated at 37%. Five years later, turnout is believed to have risen to Philip Davies: The Deputy Leader of the House about 44%. It is only by continuing and increasing claims to be facilitating a debate and says that he young people’s engagement with politics that we can believes there is no reason why a debate should not take continue to see those numbers grow. place. If that is the case, can he explain why yesterday For those who either watched it or were present, last the Government tried to get this motion through on the year’s debate showed us young people from across the nod at the end of the day, without any debate? If the country discussing the issues that they felt were most Government were so keen on facilitating a debate, why important—youth crime, cheaper transport, free university did he not schedule a debate in the first place? education, job opportunities for young people, and Mr Heath: May I let the hon. Gentleman into a lowering the voting age to 16. Without trespassing on secret? If the House agrees on an issue, we do not need the territory of the Backbench Business Committee and to take up debating time. If the House agreed on a the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha matter, it would be sensible not to schedule a debate on Engel), may I say that if those suggestions were put to the Order Paper, because we could use the time for more her Committee, they would not be out of order as important things, such as those statements that hon. matters of vital importance to the House. Members have said they want to hear in the Chamber. Philip Davies: Was I hearing the Minister correctly We could ensure that Ministers come here to explain when he tried to claim that the increased turnout among their policies, and have more time for legislation, rather young people at the last election from 38% to 44% was than debating matters on which the whole House agrees. due to young people having a debate in the Chamber But it would appear that there are some in the House last year? Is that really what he is claiming? I thought who do not agree, which is why we are happy to provide that his party was claiming beforehand that it was the time for the debate this evening. televised debates with all the leaders that were encouraging Last time we debated this matter, I was on the Opposition young people to turn out. Has he changed his mind, or Benches and supporting the hon. Member for Worsley is he just coming out with a load of guff and a spurious and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley)—no, it was not her; argument? it was the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman was correct neither Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It in the figures he quoted me as saying nor in the causal was me. connection, which I did not seek to make. So the simple answer is: no, he is not correct. Mr Heath: I beg the hon. Lady’s pardon. It was her who put forward the motion. I said then that if we were I shall deal with some of the objections that might to decide in the future that the first occasion had been a come up during the debate, because they came up at great success in building confidence in democracy, and length last year. Last year’s debate by the UK Youth an understanding of democracy, among the young in Parliament was the very first time that anyone other this country, we might repeat the experience. I hope that than Members of Parliament had sat on these green hon. Members who were in the House during the previous Benches. Parliament and who actually saw the debate—I attended Philip Davies: Outrageous. the whole of it—would agree that those tests were met, and that the experience should be repeated. I hope that Mr Heath: I hear the word “outrageous” from a new Members in the House, who worked hard to ensure sedentary position behind me. The fact that last year’s they could take their seats, will feel it right to encourage debate was the first time that anyone other than a young people to express themselves and take part in the Member of Parliament had sat on these green Benches process of politics, and I can think of no better way of seemed to be the issue for some hon. Members. They doing so than this particular suggestion. held the view—and obviously still do—that to sit on 293 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 294 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) these Benches is a privilege that can be exercised only by John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I thank the hon. Members who have been elected to this House. In my Gentleman for so generously giving way again. I recall view, that is to confuse the institution of Parliament, one of the Tory backwoodsmen with whom he is in which is an enormously important institution to this such happy coalition these days saying that those young country, and the fabric of the building. The two are not people would come in here and put chewing gum on the identical. Were it to sit in another chamber, this Parliament seats and use penknives to carve them up. Could he would still be the Parliament of the United Kingdom, report back to the House on how many such incidents just as much as it is when it sits in this Chamber. This occurred? Chamber in itself does not constitute the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Mr Heath: Of course no incidents of that kind occurred at all. Indeed, the behaviour of the young people in the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Would YouthParliament was impeccable in every sense. Indeed, my hon. Friend also allow this Chamber to be used by there were staff and Officers of the House who confided the pensioners’ parliament, the Muslim parliament or in me after the event that they had had real reservations any other body, and basically be rented out? about the invitation being issued. They had been worried about what would happen, but they were astonished at Mr Heath: I am glad that the hon. Lady has raised the maturity, good sense, good manners and proper that issue, because it was the next objection that I behaviour of those young people—young people who thought might be raised. Her argument is what I would engaged in debate that was often of a higher quality characterise as the slippery slope argument: that because than what we hear in this Chamber on a normal working we have allowed the UK Youth Parliament to sit in this day. That is a testament to the maturity and good sense Chamber once, and because we now propose that the of those young people. experiment might be worth repeating, there is no way that we can prevent any Tom, Dick or Harry, from Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): It seems to me that anywhere in the country, from coming in here and, by we have effectively formed a Backbench Business Committee precedent, using this Chamber. However, that is patently this evening, but I wonder whether in future it would be not the case, because the decision is taken by this better if this sort of issue were brought forward by the Parliament. Backbench Business Committee rather than in Government However, there is another reason, which is this. The time. There were great results from what took place UK Youth Parliament fulfils two criteria that no other here, which I do not think many of us would deny, but organisation in this country can fulfil. First, its members this is not really prime Government business. Would it are elected democratically; secondly, it comprises citizens not be better dealt with by the Backbench Business of this country who, by statute, cannot seek election to Committee? this House. Therefore, I believe that the UK Youth Parliament has a unique position, and we have a clear Mr Heath: That is a point that I made earlier in my function in encouraging young people to take an interest speech—that this should be Backbench Business Committee in politics and become involved in the political process. business, and should be allotted time in that context. I hope that if this is debated again in future years, it will Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): be done that way. Should we not celebrate the fact that young people are interested in sitting on these Benches, rather than having Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Does my hon. a go at them, in a cheap fashion, from the Back Benches? Friend recall that in the previous Parliament, it was somewhat embarrassing that the House of Lords allowed Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I certainly the UK Youth Parliament to sit on their red Benches, celebrate the fact that young people are interested, as which is what shamed us into allowing it to sit on our she clearly does, and as I think most sensible people do. green Benches? This House made rather a spectacle of There are a small minority who perhaps do not, but I itself in the last Parliament and we made ourselves very think that Parliament has a clear view on such issues. unpopular. We are in grave danger of doing exactly the same thing again, and looking increasingly out of touch. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): May I briefly congratulate Oliver Warne, MYP, on his re-election to Mr Heath: I think it is always a matter of concern the Youth Parliament? Does my hon. Friend agree that when the House of Lords looks comparatively youthful, he and the other youth MPs conducted the debates in progressive and forward thinking in comparison with this place last year with enormous dignity, good sense the elected House, so I absolutely agree with my hon. and restraint, which is something from which some Friend. Members of this House could perhaps learn? Let us deal with some of the apparently very important logistical questions raised in last year’s debate. They Mr Heath: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of were clarified then, but it is worth repeating them for the other objections raised is that if we allowed members the avoidance of any doubt. The rules of order that the of the UK Youth Parliament in here they would be UK Youth Parliament will follow in this Chamber will swinging the Mace round their heads, swinging from the be the same as our own. As I suggested earlier in chandeliers and causing mayhem—after all, they are response to the intervention by the hon. Member for youth; some of them probably wear hoodies. I have to Bassetlaw (John Mann), there are strong arguments for say that, in all honesty, that was not the experience last us to follow its lead in how we interpret procedure time—not by a long way. rather than it following ours. 295 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 296 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) [Mr Heath] but on the people whom they represent and the people to whom they report back—the people who know that The Mace will not be in its place and the Speaker’s they have had that opportunity. I hope that Members Chair will not be occupied by anyone other than Mr Speaker will join me in supporting the motion and welcoming or the Deputy Speakers. As for broadcasting, the rights the UK YouthParliament back to this place to continue will remain with us. I believe that the parliamentary its excellent work. broadcasting unit should be encouraged to film the proceedings, and I am sure that the broadcasters will 11 pm need no encouragement to show it. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): The question of whether young people engage in politics Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I should should concern Members because of its potential impact declare that I am a trustee of the Youth Parliament. I on the fabric of democracy in future years. Labour would like some clarification from my hon. Friend as to Members are very proud that in March 2009, the whether the transmission of proceedings will be live or, Government set the very good precedent of tabling a as I have heard in some reports, there will be a delay. motion to allow the UK Youth Parliament to sit in the Given that so many have noted that the YouthParliament Chamber at a time when the House was not sitting. was exceptional in its proceedings, it should not be required to have a delay in its live broadcasting. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The hon. Lady has made the point that the Government established Mr Heath: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has a precedent. However, in our last debate on the subject played a large part in championing the role of the UK it was made clear to the House that it would not be a Youth Parliament in this House and elsewhere. I cannot precedent: that it would be a one-off for the annual answer her question because it is not within the gift of meeting of the UK Youth Parliament on its the Deputy Leader of the House—despite my manifest 10th anniversary. Is this not the slippery slope that powers of persuasion. I will inquire and write back to many of us feared? my hon. Friend, but I am afraid that I do not know the answer without making further inquiries of the Barbara Keeley: I would not call it a slippery slope, parliamentary broadcasting unit. but I will come to the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I entirely As some Members have observed, the meeting that support the use of the Chamber for the YouthParliament, took place last October was a great success. These but I am puzzled by one piece of logic. Why is the hon. Benches were packed with 300 young men and women, Gentleman content for the Prime Minister’s Chair to be many from ethnically diverse backgrounds, and it was a used by the UK Youth Parliament, while the Speaker’s fantastic debate. One of the young people described Chair is somehow regarded as sacrosanct? Why should how she felt about it, saying: that Chair not be used equally by the YouthParliament? “It is an outstanding example of how democracy among young people is alive and kicking. Tackling debate topics such as Mr Heath: For the very simple reason that this appeared tuition fees, transport, crime, the economy AND lowering the to be a bone of contention last time we debated it, and voting age really shows that anyone who thinks young people rather than have yet another argument with colleagues aren’t interested in politics is extremely misinformed.” who felt otherwise, it was felt appropriate for the Speaker’s We want to encourage young people to see democracy Chair not to be occupied by anyone other than Mr Speaker as important, and to see the House of Commons as or the Deputy Speakers. We will keep to that protocol, relevant to their lives and to the future. It would be very because there is no objection on the part of the UK odd for us not to continue to let young people use the Youth Parliament to it. Indeed, how could it object, Chamber when we are not using it—on a Friday, during when it is here at our invitation? There is no reason for a weekend, or when the House is in recess. It would be changing the protocol. very odd indeed for us to say now, after all the success of At the end of last year’s debate, Rhys George, a the debate last October, that we were raising the drawbridge Member of the Youth Parliament for the South East, on the use of Parliament by young people. Instead, we rose on a point of order to say: should be opening the windows to the breath of fresh air that they will bring in. “I would like to say thank you to all the MPs who voted overwhelmingly for us to be debating here today for the first time. Without them, we would not be here and the people of Britain Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Does my hon. would not be able to see what we mean and what we are trying to Friend agree that if, after the great success of last year’s do to benefit young people.” experiment, we turned around and said, “No, we are not letting you in here again,” that would send entirely Mr Speaker was in the Chair at the time, and he rather the wrong signals to the young people? deftly avoided noting that this was not, in fact, a point of order or a matter for the Chair. I am not sure that he Barbara Keeley: It would indeed. Members are clearly would have been quite so tolerant had it been raised in concerned about the issues affecting young people. We our normal business. regularly discuss in the Chamber the same issues that I believe that this is a matter for the whole House. We the young people discuss themselves, and it is important must decide whether we want to continue to encourage for us to hear their angles and views as well. The young people to be involved in politics. We must decide engagement of the UK YouthParliament—whose members whether we want to give them an opportunity that will are themselves elected from all parts of the country, be theirs perhaps once in a lifetime, and which I think often on a bigger turnout than some Members here—is will make a lasting impression not just on them personally very important. 297 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 298 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) Philip Davies: Will the hon. Lady give way? Therefore, the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and those supporting her stance Barbara Keeley: I hope that I speak for all Labour are saying that what the young people in the Youth Members when I say that we support the motion. Parliament should learn from the House of Commons is that we cannot believe a word anybody in this House Philip Davies: Will the hon. Lady give way? Or has says, because they say one thing one year and they then she finished her speech? go and completely reject the solemn promises they made at that time. If that is the kind of message they Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. want to give to young people, that is very interesting. Has the hon. Lady finished her speech? Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Given Barbara Keeley: Yes. that no previous Parliament can bind a future Parliament, perhaps it is not the young people who need to do their homework about this place. Does my hon. Friend not Madam Deputy Speaker: in that case, given that the agree that that decision was for that Parliament to take, hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is on his feet, and what we do in this Parliament is for us to decide? he has the Floor. Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. 11.4 pm However, I would point out that those people who were here in the previous Parliament and who said that the Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Thank you, Madam debate was a one-off—that it would only take place Deputy Speaker. It is a poor show when, although it is once and it would not be repeated—should bear that in apparently so important for the Youth Parliament to sit mind when they come to decide how to vote on the issue in this Chamber, the main Opposition party can find tonight, unless, of course, they want to go against only about two minutes’ worth of things to say about it. absolutely everything they said. It clearly cannot be all that important to them if they have nothing to say in support of it. Martin Horwood: I was in the last Parliament and in fact I hope that it does set a precedent. I am slightly Barbara Keeley rose— confused, however. In a spirit of honesty and transparency, will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether or not he Philip Davies: The hon. Lady would not give way to opposes the use of these Benches by the UK Youth me, but because I am of more generous character than Parliament? she is, I will give way to her. Philip Davies: Of course I do. The hon. Gentleman Barbara Keeley: I thank the hon. Gentleman. must have been living on Mars for the past year. He said It is easy for Labour Members, because we are unanimous he attended last year’s debate; I spoke for about an hour on the subject. It is the backwoodsmen on the Government and a quarter on the subject then, although I cannot Benches who are raising all the objections. remember the exact length of time. He claims he was present, but I made it blindingly obvious that I am Philip Davies: The hon. Lady talked—very briefly, I against this. For the benefit of the hon. Gentleman, must say—about the views of young people, and the who obviously cannot remember the debates he takes importance of their perception of the House of Commons part in, I will try to rehearse tonight some of the same and its relevance to them. arguments I made then so that he can get a better understanding that I am actually opposed to this. May I tell the hon. Lady something that she might want to bear in mind when considering what people Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I thank my hon. think of the House of Commons? It comes back to Friend for saying that, as I was going to ask him to something that my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering rehearse those arguments. Also, does he agree that this (Mr Hollobone) said in his earlier intervention, which is possibly the most vibrant, passionate and sincere was not dealt with particularly well. The hon. Lady debate we have had in this Parliament, and that that is, started off by saying that the previous Labour Government perhaps, a case for ending the system of whipping? set a precedent with last year’s debate. Philip Davies: I am sure my hon. Friend’s comments Barbara Keeley: To clarify that, my point was that will have been noted diligently by the Whip on duty, my moving the motion was a precedent, not that the debate hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby itself was a precedent. (Mr Goodwill). Some of us in this House believe that all votes are free votes really, and that, at the end of the Philip Davies: We are very grateful in this place that day, Members can vote entirely as they please. They we have our Hansard reporters, and we can all read might want to take heed of what the Whips are encouraging tomorrow what the hon. Lady actually said. We certainly them to do, however, as I must say to my hon. Friend heard that she said that it was a precedent. the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) that usually The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) their advice is very sound, but occasionally it is not, and said that it was an experiment last time. However, if I suspect that on this issue it may not be quite as sound anyone wants to cast their eyes back on the account of as it usually is. last year’s debate, they will see that it was made abundantly I am sure my hon. Friend’s suggested innovation will clear by the Government and others who supported the be taken seriously by my hon. Friend the Member for principle that the debate was a one-off. Scarborough and Whitby. Indeed, he is sitting in his 299 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 300 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) [Philip Davies] I might add that when we were debating this last time round and we were asking why they could not go back position on the Front Bench and writing diligently as I to have their debate in Westminster Hall, the argument speak, so I think the name of my hon. Friend the given by the proponents of this was, “They have already Member for Wycombe has gone in the book. I wish him been there once and they do not want to go back well for his future career, but I fear it may be as elevated again.” When we asked why they could not go back to as mine. the House of Lords, we were told, “They have been there once and they need somewhere different.” Why Simon Hughes: I have no desire to encourage the hon. does not the same argument apply on this occasion? Gentleman to speak for a long time, but may I just ask They have been here once and presumably they want to him a question? I understand why backwoods Conservatives move on to somewhere else. I can think of nowhere might have been against this before we tried it the first better than the European Parliament, where I am sure time, but given the success of what happened and the they would be welcomed with open arms. clearly positive response, can he not understand that it is bizarre, extraordinary and very sad that he is continuing We say that we are trying to improve the quality of his opposition as the YouthParliament itself was clearly debate in the Parliament in which they speak. It may far more successful than his argument a year ago? well be that the Deputy Leader of the House is right in saying that they improve the quality of debate in this Philip Davies: I look forward to hearing the hon. Chamber and the decision-making qualities in this Gentleman outlining at length his measure of success Chamber, but believe you me, if they were to have a for that particular debate. We can have a debate at debate in the European Parliament they would transform length this evening about what the measure of success is the quality of debate that takes place over there and the for the Youth Parliament sitting here. It was clearly quality of decision making. Perhaps they ought to go more successful than I thought it was and perhaps even somewhere else. Perhaps they ought to go to Buckingham more successful than he thought it was, because the palace, because they have not been there before for a Deputy Leader of the House told us that the turnout at debate. They seem to want to go to somewhere only the election was so much higher. That was something once, so why are we now presuming that they want to that I had never thought of as a measure of success, but keep coming back to the same place year after year? clearly it was; it had nothing to do with any of this. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Mention has Emma Reynolds: Everyone in the Chamber knows of been made of how much the young people enjoyed the the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm for the European experience and benefited from it. Does my hon. Friend Parliament, but does he agree that our Parliament is a agree that that was probably due in no small part to the remarkable institution and it is not comparable to sitting, fact that they had heeded the debate and thought that speaking and standing in Westminster Hall? We should the occasion they were taking part in was unique? It be proud of the fact that young people are interested in now turns out that it was not as unique as they thought. the politics of this country. I regret the cynicism expressed by some, but not all, hon. Members on the Benches Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good opposite and the fact that they take such a distasteful point. A system of overkill may well be in operation approach to this matter. Why are they not proud of the here; these debates may become ten a penny to members fact that young people want to come here to debate of the Youth Parliament and they may not treat them as things and look at how our Parliament works? Why are seriously as they did last time. That may or may not be they ashamed of that? the case—I guess time will tell. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) rose— Philip Davies: I am very sorry that the hon. Lady takes that view. I am sure that all the members of the Philip Davies: I will give way in a second to my hon. Youth Parliament will have tuned in late at night to Friend, but I wish to finish the point I was making to watch this debate to see their fortunes unfold before the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark them. What they will probably be slightly concerned (Simon Hughes), who said that my position was about is that in this Chamber that they all cherish there extraordinary, given that this was such a success last are people such as the hon. Lady, who is clearly so time. intolerant of anyone who happens to have a different opinion from her. I thought that the whole principle of Simon Hughes rose— free speech and free debate in this House was that we Philip Davies: I will happily give way to the hon. accepted each other’s arguments and respected them Gentleman, but would he say that the YouthParliament equally and that although we might come to different debate that took place in Westminster Hall in a previous points of view, we would respect them. I perfectly year was a success? Or was it a great failure? I think that respect the hon. Lady’s point of view, but it is just a it was a success, but perhaps he thinks it was a failure. If shame that she seems so intolerant of anybody who it was a success, why can they not go back to Westminster happens to disagree with her. I am not entirely sure that Hall? They had a very successful debate there before. that is the kind of lesson we should be teaching the They had a very successful debate—he mentioned this members of the Youth Parliament. or perhaps one of his hon. Friends did—in the House of Lords. Does he say that that debate was a failure and Emma Reynolds: I am perfectly respectful of people that they therefore have to come in here because it failed who have a different view from me, but I also respect in the House of Lords? Or was it a success? They do not that young people have different views from one another really need to come here to have a successful debate. We and want to take the opportunity to debate them in this have proved in this House on many occasions that they place. This is the first of the hon. Gentleman’s speeches can have very successful debates elsewhere. on this subject that I have listened to and I ask him to 301 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 302 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) forgive me, as I have not listened to hours of his former could not accommodate members of the YouthParliament? speeches on it. Why is he ashamed of this place being And yet they seem happy to say that we should have used when we are not using it? What does he oppose? them here. I believe that this place is special for setting Why does he not think that young people should use the legislation of this country, and yet apparently it this place when we are not here? I do not understand his would be a better use of their time to watch more argument. debates in the Committee Rooms or in Westminster Hall. Is it not a crying shame that they have been denied Philip Davies: If the hon. Lady did not keep intervening, access to see Question Time? we might get on to the arguments so that we could outline them for her. She is far too impatient—she Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good obviously wants to get on with it. I want to get on with point. It comes down to the point about what we can do it, too, but I am trying to be generous with people who in this House to encourage younger people to participate want to intervene. I shall try to outline the arguments, in politics and become active in politics—I am sure that but I am surprised that she seems to think that the only that is something with which we all agree. I hope at a place that a debate of the Youth Parliament can take later point to discuss matters to do with the cost of this place is in this Chamber. Why cannot a debate of the event. The Deputy Leader of the House was going Youth Parliament take place in other forums? They can through all the rigmarole about what will happen, but have a very good debate in Westminster Hall and in the he did not say how much it will cost. Perhaps we ought House of Lords. Why do they have to be here to have a to think about whether that money could be better debate? That is the point that the hon. Lady is making, spent out in each Member’s constituency on trying to which I do not really follow. encourage younger people to participate in politics, Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that one of rather than on this grand gesture. My hon. Friend the big complaints at the meeting of the YouthParliament makes a very good point. Perhaps we should take stock last year was that debates were truncated? The Youth and think about what we can do to encourage people to Parliament member for Christchurch, for example, was participate in and get excited about politics. She has hit not called and so he was unable to participate. Would it the nail on the head. not be better if the Youth Parliament met not just one day a year but several days each year, so that there was Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I was sceptical time for every member of the Youth Parliament to about the YouthParliament but the cure for my scepticism participate and to stand on their feet in this wonderful was seeing it in action and realising that at least one Chamber? future parliamentarian was almost certainly there on that day. The Stormont Assembly has been doing this Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good for years and not only are there absolutely no problems point and he is living proof that people can change their in Stormont but Ministers respond to the YouthParliament mind in this place. He seems to be articulating the view in the Northern Ireland Assembly. As with many issues, that we should have more Youth Parliament debates in we could look across the water and learn from them. this Chamber, an argument with which I am sure that many hon. Members would agree. Many might agree with it secretly because they do not want to let the cat Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair out of the bag now, just like last year when they did not point for which I have a lot of sympathy. If Ministers want to let the cat out of the bag that this would be an are so enthusiastic about the Youth Parliament sitting annual occasion. They now do not want to let the cat here, I am sure that they will have no objection to out of the bag that they want this to happen more than volunteering their time to respond to its debate in the once a year—in fact, that they want it to happen a few way that he suggests. I am sure that that would be a times a year. Perhaps it could happen every week, or worthwhile innovation. He is known for his ingenuity every Friday that we did not sit. Perhaps that is what and his innovations, and I am sure that that one might they really think, but they do not have the courage of catch on. He is certainly right that we could learn a their convictions. great deal from our friends in the Province who often have more sensible views on things. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): How would the hon. Gentleman respond to the suggestion that his Mr Heath: Just in case the hon. Gentleman thinks speech inadvertently presents the only decent argument that he is genuinely suggesting an unusual innovation, against the Youth Parliament’s sitting on these Benches, let me tell him that the acting leader of the Opposition, namely that the quality of their debate so far exceeded my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and I his that they would put him to shame? were all present for the entire day at the last meeting of the UK Youth Parliament and that the acting leader of Philip Davies: I have no doubt that Members of the the Opposition spoke in the debate. I would certainly Youth Parliament will put my speeches to shame and I think it a privilege to attend this year if it is the will of equally have no doubt that they will put the hon. the House that its meeting should take place in the Gentleman’s speeches to shame, too. The only difference Chamber. is that I know it and, perhaps, he does not. The same rules still apply. Philip Davies: It is a red letter day for the Youth Dr Thérèse Coffey: I am very grateful to my hon. Parliament, because not only do we seem to be on the Friend for giving way. I am hosting a visit of all the verge of allowing its members to use the Chamber members of the YouthParliament from Suffolk tomorrow, again, but the Deputy Leader of the House has offered and is it not a crying shame that the authorities of this to play a full part in their proceedings. I am sure that House would not find it fit to find tickets for Prime that promise will have been bagged by them and that Minister’s Question Time, because they said that they they will look forward to that with excitement. 303 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 304 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) [Philip Davies] Jo Swinson: When did the hon. Gentleman last meet his local members of the Youth Parliament? What was The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) their view of whether they should use the Chamber for said that he was concerned about the quality of my debating? What was his response to them? speech, but my generosity in dealing with interventions Philip Davies: The hon. Lady makes a good point. I has meant that I have not yet started. However, I intend met those members straight after their election. I made to do so now. a point of contacting them all when they were newly Barry Gardiner: I assure the hon. Gentleman that it elected to their positions. We all had a meeting in was not the quality but the width of his speech that I Shipley, and the interesting point, which is the one that was worried about. she was making, is that not one of them mentioned the fact that they wanted to hold a debate in Parliament. In Philip Davies: I am sure that the House is grateful for fact, all the times that I have met members of the Youth that clarification. Parliament in my locality— The first point that I want to make is that the debate Jo Swinson rose— is not about the merits of the Youth Parliament. One weakness of the argument put forward by those who Philip Davies: I am dealing with the hon. Lady’s support the motion is that they try to characterise the intervention. Even if she wants to intervene again, she debate so that if you are in favour of the motion you are may at least listen to the answer to the first one. She in favour of the Youth Parliament and that if you are asked what view members of the Youth Parliament had against it you must be against the Youth Parliament. of meeting here and what my response was to that. My answer—it is perfectly clear, although it might not be Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman the one that she wants, but it is the answer to her is a very experienced Member of the House and I know question—is that not one of them mentioned that they that he does not mean to drag me into what is an wanted to hold a debate in the Chamber. In fact, when I obvious disagreement among some in the Chamber. visited their debate at Bradford council chamber, not Given that he is so keen on procedure, I know that he one of them mentioned doing so either. will want to stick to it exactly. Jo Swinson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Philip Davies: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. Philip Davies: I am still dealing with the hon. Lady’s Surely it is not sensible to suggest that people who previous intervention. The wasp appears to have moved support the motion must be in favour of the Youth places. If holding a debate here is so important to all the Parliament and that those who are against it must be Youth Parliament’s members, perhaps she will explain against the Youth Parliament. Nobody could be more when she comes back for a second bite of the cherry supportive of the UK Youth Parliament than I am. why none of them mentioned it to me. Jo Swinson: Perhaps the YouthParliament’s members Emma Reynolds: If the hon. Gentleman is so supportive are not as avid readers of Hansard as everyone else and of the UK Youth Parliament, why will he not let it use had not read or heard the hon. Gentleman’s previous the Chamber when we are not here? more-than-one-hour peroration on this issue. Given that he had spoken for more than an hour, I find it Philip Davies: Once again, the hon. Lady springs up strange that he did not mention that to the Youth like a jack-in-the-box. [HON.MEMBERS: “Jill-in-the-box.”] Parliament’s members when they came to meet him and Indeed. I am not entirely sure whether there is a wasp that they had no response to it. Will he confirm that he on that Bench or something else that is prompting the met them after he had made his hour-long speech in the hon. Lady to jump up at every opportunity. If she will Chamber and that he chose not to mention it? allow me to advance the arguments, she might learn why I think as I do. I am very proud of the fact that I Philip Davies: I did meet the Youth Parliament’s spend an awful lot of time meeting people who are members after I made that speech in the Chamber. I members of the Youth Parliament in my area. I am very have never hidden my views on the issue. I have no idea proud of the fact that I went to visit Bradford council what the hon. Lady does, but I know for a fact that she chamber, where an excellent debate took place involving is an incredibly diligent local MP. She can learn nothing the Youth Parliament in my locality, and I thoroughly from me about being a good constituency MP, but I will enjoyed listening to those arguments and that debate. I explain my approach just for clarity. When I meet local am all for engaging with members of the UK Youth members of the Youth Parliament, my approach is to Parliament. ask them about the issues that they are interested in and to ask them to tell me about the things that concern Andrew Percy: If it is fine for Bradford city council them. Clearly, her approach, which is obviously better chamber to be given over to the Youth Parliament, why than mine, because she is a diligent constituency MP, is it is not fine for the Chamber to be given over to it? for her simply to lecture them about what she thinks. I did not think that that was an appropriate way to deal Philip Davies: If Bradford council is happy for the with them, so I allowed them to raise the issues that UK Youth Parliament to use its chamber, that is a they were concerned about, and those issues happened matter for it. Perhaps it had this kind of debate before it not to include holding a debate here. In fact, many of allowed it to do so; and equally, as someone who them were much more interested in local issues, such as believes in democracy, if the will of the House is to crime and job opportunities, and debates about going allow the UK Youth Parliament to use the Chamber, I to university, tuition fees and so on. Not one of them will respect that decision, just as Bradford councillors felt that holding a debate in the Chamber would be presumably respected the decision of the majority there. revolutionary to their lives. 305 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 306 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) Barbara Keeley: The debate is not about the Shipley My hon. Friend makes a fair point in the sense that youth council or the West Yorkshire youth council, but the people who proposed using the Chamber last time about the UK Youth Parliament. Young people want to round argued that the Youth Parliament could not go meet young people from other parts of the country and back to the House of Lords or Westminster Hall because, to debate issues with them. If this was just a local having already been there, its members were bored of matter, one could appreciate that they would feel the them. The logic of that argument, as my hon. Friend way that the hon. Gentleman suggests, but it is not; it is says, is that the more time they stay here, the more a UK-wide Youth Parliament. bored of it they will become, so they might feel less inspired to want to come here as MPs because they have Philip Davies: No one is arguing that the UK Youth already done so. Parliament should not have a national meeting, but that is not what is before the House. We are discussing where Representing one’s constituency in Parliament is a it should have its meeting. I am sure that the hon. Lady tremendous privilege. Everyone in the Chamber will will concede that the Youth Parliament members could have worked incredibly hard to achieve what for many is meet in Westminster Hall or the House of Lords. If her a lifetime ambition of representing their constituency in prime purpose is that they should meet, that is not an Parliament. It is a great privilege finally to take one’s argument for why they should meet here. seat. Why would we want to undermine that achievement by allowing people who have not gone through the Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful rigmarole of getting here to take their seats in the to the hon. Gentleman for giving way in this waspish Chamber? To come back to the point made by my hon. debate. He is making a long and pained contribution Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), about why the UK Youth Parliament is important and why is the UK Youth Parliament, worthy as it is, so the many issues that it considers, but he has not set out special? If the argument is that young people do not feel why those things cannot be considered in the Chamber. that there is sufficient focus on their issues and, therefore, He makes a strong case about the many things that such a debate gives them an opportunity to advance young people talk to him about, and I would be worried them, I should argue that many of my constituents feel if the only thing that they discussed was the use of this that pensioners’ issues are not particularly well covered place, but he has not explained why that should be ruled in Parliament. out. He needs to be clearer about why not this place, rather than why somewhere else. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Philip Davies: The problem with the hon. Lady’s intervention is that I have been able to speak for only a Philip Davies: I will in a moment. few seconds before people like her have tried to intervene. Why should the National Pensioners Convention not I have generously taken hon. Members’ interventions to be allowed to use the Chamber? What is so special allow them to have their say, but that has prevented me about the UK Youth Parliament to the exclusion of any from setting out my argument. The solution to her other group? dilemma is that she allows me to continue my speech without intervening because she may then hear my Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Will the hon. arguments. It appears, however, that she is not interested Gentleman give way? in listening to anyone else’s point of view because she has already made up her mind. She might wish to pass Philip Davies: I shall give way to the hon. Member for on that lesson to members of the UK YouthParliament, Wirral South (Alison McGovern), because she caught but I am not sure that it is particularly healthy. my eye first. I am all for the UK Youth Parliament and for Alison McGovern: Does the hon. Gentleman believe encouraging young people to participate in politics, but that the privilege and specialness of being a Member is is it not sad that the best way that the assembled the act of representing our constituents or the act of brainpower of the House can think of to get more sitting on these seats? young people involved in politics, engaged in the political process and inspired to want to become MPs is to allow Philip Davies: The hon. Lady seems to advance the them to hold a debate once a year in the House of argument that these seats are no more than furniture Commons Chamber? Is that the depth of our imagination? and that they of are no importance. She nods her head, Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend touches on the crucial so she clearly agrees that we are sitting on furniture that point that simply holding a debate—a one-off debate or is neither here nor there. That may be her view, and it is annual debates—in the Chamber runs the risk of taking perfectly respectable, but I do not share it. When she away these people’s lifelong interest. Does he agree that shows her constituents around this place, does she say one’s interest in politics over a long time is driven by the to them, “We’ll not bother going into the main Chamber, desire to sit on these green Benches? because it’s just a row of seats, a few benches, a bit of furniture, to be honest. We’ve got furniture all over, and Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind Members these seats are no more important than any other, so of the procedure of the House? Interventions are supposed we’ll miss out the Chamber and go somewhere else to be brief, not speeches in their own right. I know that because we’re not interested”? I suspect not, because everyone is really interested in the debate and that the these seats represent a bit more than what she just hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has said that indicated—furniture. he would like to make progress on his main points, so if interventions were a little briefer, that would help. Mr Gray: Will my hon. Friend give way? Philip Davies: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Philip Davies: Of course. I shall give way to the hon. Speaker. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) in a second. 307 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 308 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) Mr Gray: I disagree with my hon. Friend, but he is been similarly undermined? To do him credit, it seems making a fine speech. The hon. Lady is being wholly to me that based on his performance tonight he has not illogical, is she not? If she is arguing that these Benches changed at all. are merely bits of furniture and it does not matter who sits on them, why are they so special to the Youth Philip Davies: I am not sure whether to take that as a Parliament? It could equally well sit in Westminster compliment or an insult, although knowing my hon. Hall, the House of Lords, Church House or anywhere Friend as I do I shall take it as a compliment. He would else. The point about this Chamber is that it is an not wish to suggest anything else. incredibly special place; it is an incredible privilege to be The point that I am making is that the motion is here; and, therefore, for the young people it is an wholly illogical. It makes absolutely no sense whatever, incredible privilege to come here. To try to contend that because all the justifications for allowing the Youth these Benches are merely nothing seems to me to miss Parliament to sit here are justifications for allowing lots the logic of the argument altogether. of other organisations to do the same. The hon. Member Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good for Worsley and Eccles South and the hon. Member for point, and, although we approach the issue from different Bermondsey and Old Southwark made the great point perspectives, I applaud at least the consistency of his that one of the great features of the Youth Parliament argument. He is absolutely right to suggest that those debate last year was that so many people from ethnic people who say that, on the one hand, it is a special minorities took part. If that is the rationale for allowing gesture to allow the UK Youth Parliament to sit here it to be here, presumably the hon. Lady will advocate and, on the other, that it is just a row of benches, that the Muslim Council of Britain should have its directly contradict themselves. meetings here. If we want lots of people from ethnic minorities here, the council would be a prime candidate. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way? Barbara Keeley: In raising the point about ethnic Philip Davies: I shall give way first to the hon. Member diversity, the hon. Gentleman misses the point. The for Chippenham, because I promised him that I would. point is that the UK Youth Parliament, through its Duncan Hames: The hon. Gentleman’s first argument, work and how it elects its members, is more diverse than therefore, rests on his own sense of self-importance. this House. That is impressive. However, on his question about what is so special about the UK Youth Parliament as opposed to the other Philip Davies: That may well be the case, but is the candidates who might use this Chamber, does he accept hon. Lady really suggesting that any organisation that that many of its members were not even entitled to vote happens to have a more diverse make-up than the in the elections in which we all stood as candidates, and, House should therefore be entitled to have a debate indeed, were not eligible to be candidates themselves? here? That is the logic of her position. The make-up of the Youth Parliament may well be more diverse, but Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly that is no argument for allowing it to have a debate in reasonable and fair point, and I do not decry his position, this Chamber. but I ask him to reflect on the fact that prisoners are not allowed to vote in elections. Is he saying that we should Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does the hon. hold a debate here just for prisoners? The royal family Gentleman not realise that the UK Youth Parliament is are not allowed to vote at elections, so perhaps he is elected on a system based on constituencies? Each local suggesting that we open up the Chamber so that they authority area has a certain number of places at the can have a debate. Members of the House of Lords are Youth Parliament. The young people fight elections not allowed to vote, so perhaps we should open it up to against other young people, so they have some legitimacy them if they get bored of their Chamber. The UK as members of that Parliament. What would be better Youth Parliament became bored of its chamber and we than for the UK Youth Parliament to come to the allowed its members in here, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman mother of Parliaments and sit here to debate for one is suggesting that, if the House of Lords gets bored of day? I cannot understand why some Government Members its Chamber, we should make room for its Members on are resistant to that. these Benches. Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that anybody who does not have a right to vote in elections in this Philip Davies: The hon. Lady raises a perfectly valid country should be eligible to hold a debate here? What point, and I do not wish to decry it. If her argument is about all foreign nationals? They are not allowed to that we should allow all organisations with democratic vote. Should we have an annual debate for foreign legitimacy to debate in the House, it is perfectly nationals in this Chamber because they have the misfortune reasonable—I am sure that all my local parish councils of not being eligible to vote in elections? I respect the will look forward to their day in the sunshine, when hon. Gentleman’s point of view, but his argument is they have their debate. I suspect that many people in my nonsensical. parishes feel that national significance is not given to all the issues that they debate. Perhaps members of my Gavin Barwell: After half an hour, we have come to local authority in Bradford will look forward to their the absolute crux of my hon. Friend’s argument. He day in the spotlight when they can have a debate here. If said that the work that all of us had done to get here the hon. Lady’s argument is that all organisations with was undermined by allowing other people to sit in this some democratic accountability should have a debate Chamber. Is he really suggesting that he, himself, and here, it is perfectly valid, but she still has not given any his status as an MP have been undermined by what reason why that should apply only to the UK Youth happened last year, and that all other Members have Parliament. 309 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 310 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) Martin Horwood: I must first apologise to the hon. bit harder, he will find some young people in his Gentleman for having forgotten his speech from last constituency, and then he can ask how many of them year; I cannot think what erased it from my memory. are desperate to come and have a debate in this Chamber. Is not what makes the UK Youth Parliament so I think he will find that that is not near the top of their special that it is so closely modelled on this place? As list of priorities. I could be wrong. the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) pointed out, it has contested elections for constituencies closely Adam Afriyie rose— modelled on our own and the procedure is based on ours. UK Youth Parliament members have therefore Philip Davies: I give way to my hon. Friend, because I expressed great respect and gratitude for this place. promised him earlier and forgot. Does the hon. Gentleman not think it a bit mean-spirited Adam Afriyie: It seems to me that my hon. Friend is and churlish for us not to return the compliment? going through a tick-box list of variables and characteristics Philip Davies: I do not accept the premise of that of the various different organisations, and then going argument; the basis on which YouthParliament members through the arguments one by one and trying to discount are elected is not exactly the same. each individual argument, or arguing that that single variable is not the variable on which we should make Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. the judgment. In sophisticated argument, and in making Friend is making a powerful speech as usual. I had not sophisticated judgments, one takes multiple variables intended to intervene, but on the last point I should say and judges them all together in the round, not one by that the difference between the Youth Parliament and one. As he goes through each of the variables, he is this Parliament is that we are allowed to stand under agreeing that that variable is pretty much true or valid, party labels, whereas YouthParliament members cannot. but then saying that that on its own it does not seal the It is not the same as this Parliament. decision to make the judgment. I put it to him that if one is a little more sophisticated, one makes the judgment Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is right about that by taking all the variables and saying, in a combined technical difference between the Youth Parliament and fashion, that that therefore tips the judgment in favour this one. I am not sure that that negates the point made of allowing them to be here. by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood); any Parliament should be made up as it sees fit. However, Philip Davies: I applaud my hon. Friend’s honesty. In I do not particularly accept his premise to start with. He effect, he appears to be accepting the point that I have is scrabbling around trying to find what is different been making in dealing with interventions—that there about the UK Youth Parliament as opposed to any of is nothing unique about the UK Youth Parliament and these other worthy bodies. its composition that means that it should uniquely be I will tell you, Madam Deputy Speaker, what is able to use this House—but exercising his judgment in different about the UK Youth Parliament and its believing, taking everything into account, that theirs is relationship with this Chamber. What is different is that a different and special case compared with everyone we have, in my opinion, the sight of a lot of very sad else. That is a perfectly valid point and a perfectly people trying pathetically to ingratiate themselves with respectable argument, but I am delighted that he appears young people in their constituencies, which is absolutely to be agreeing with the thrust of my argument that painful to behold. They think that this is a trendy there is nothing unique about the make-up of the UK course to follow. If they want to try to look trendy with Youth Parliament that means that it should uniquely be their constituents, they will argue that they want to have able to do this. the UK Youth Parliament sitting here so that they can go back and say, “I’m trendy, I supported you.” It is Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): frankly rather pathetic. That is the only difference between Does my hon. Friend accept that at this hour, and the UK Youth Parliament and all these other bodies, bearing in mind how many hon. Members have now left however hard hon. Members scrabble around for differences the Chamber, it seems a little unfair to be monopolising between it and anything else. the debate when he has been such a strong proponent of a clear, honest and open debate about this very important Steve Baker: I am not sure that there are that many subject? Does he agree that there may be others in the young people in my constituency judging from many of Chamber who wish to look at this more as an opportunity the meetings that I go to. I think that my hon. Friend is for young people to promote democracy and to understand being quite disingenuous towards those of us who are their democratic rights, and less about his desire to keep taking this debate very seriously. I came here this evening this Chamber specifically for the benefit of its Members? to hear what he had to say, in all seriousness, to persuade me that I should not vote to let young people come and Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a curious point. sit here for one day to express their respect for British She says that I am monopolising the debate, but what I democracy. I must say that after all I have heard from am actually doing is giving way to Members who want him, I am increasingly persuaded that we should let to intervene. It seems strange to make the case that I am young people come and sit here. monopolising the debate by allowing Members to intervene. If I were trying to monopolise it, I suspect that I would Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is perfectly entitled to not allow any interventions. take that view. He said that he wants to listen to the If my hon. Friend looks at the motion on which we arguments; well, I have got on the record only one divided earlier, she will see that she supported a motion paragraph of my speech because I have been dealing to allow this debate to last until any hour. I think I am with hon. Members’ interventions. My hon. Friend is a right in saying that she walked into the Aye Lobby to very diligent local MP, but I am sure that if he looks a vote for that. It is no good voting to allow a debate to 311 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 312 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) [Philip Davies] that does not deal with why young people are so disengaged with the political process. If any Member really thinks continue until any hour and then complaining when it that this sticking plaster will mean that young people lasts until any hour. I suspect that in future, she might will start turning out in droves at elections or engaging wish to vote no so that the debate does not last until any in the political process all of a sudden, I believe they are hour. I am sure she will look more closely at the Order mistaken. Paper in future. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I am grateful to Andrea Leadsom: I would just make the point that the my hon. Friend for giving way so far into his speech. As motion that we carried earlier was not to allow the hon. parliamentarians, we exist to inspire people to come Gentleman to speak until any hour. here—I think we would all accept that. Knowing that this debate was coming up, I spoke to the representatives Philip Davies: I think I am right in saying that it was of my area, who were desperately looking forward to to allow any Member to speak until any hour. I will be the opportunity to come here and have their say. Did he delighted to allow my hon. Friends to speak until any consult his representatives, and what did they have to hour later on. I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that say? if anything I have said so far had been out of order, you would have told me so. From the fact that you have not, Philip Davies: I do not doubt that my hon. Friend I suspect that you are content that the things I am had good reason to be asleep when I dealt with a similar saying are relevant to the debate. intervention earlier—I am sure that my speech sends everybody to sleep. It might seem a long time ago, but I remind him that I said that I had spoke to the MYPs in Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): my area, and they did not mention that they wanted to I am exceedingly grateful to the hon. Gentleman for have their debate in the Chamber. giving way. May I ask him a question on what I think is the crux of his speech? Does he believe that these green Benches and the right to use them belong to us as Bob Blackman: I rise again to ask a specific question. Members, or does he believe, as I do, that they and all of Knowing that this debate was coming up, did my hon. Parliament belong to the people who send us here? Friend consult the people who are elected to come here and have their say? The point is that young people who have fought elections for the opportunity to come here Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman may feel that, in are keen to take it up, and we as parliamentarians which case tomorrow during Prime Minister’s questions should not stop them. he will presumably invite one of his constituents to sit in his place. It is not the case that by definition, any of our Philip Davies: My hon. Friend’s experience may be constituents can come and sit themselves here on these different, but his intervention would have been better Benches. In fact, he may have noticed that usually, as he directed at the Deputy Leader of the House— gives his constituents tours, there are signs up on the [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire seats saying, “Please don’t sit here”. He appears to be (Jo Swinson) will control herself, I can finish my point. on the verge of supporting the principle that some of If my hon. Friend were so desperate for every hon. his constituents can come and sit on these Benches but Member to speak to their MYPs before the debate, he others cannot. There is plenty of time for the debate, so should ask the Deputy Leader of the House why the I am sure he will wish to tell us in his own words why he Government tabled the motion this morning without believes that and why some of his constituents are any warning. He is quick off the mark—as ever—but if second-class citizens. he wanted all hon. Members to hold a wide consultation When a young person comes to me and asks me to with their MYPs, he should suggest that his and my talk about Parliament and politics, I always tell them hon. Friends do not support the motion tonight, but that when a politician is given a problem to solve, their allow themselves to take stock and revisit the situation solution will always incorporate two ingredients. The at a later date. If that is his suggestion, I will not first is that they have to be seen to be doing something, disagree with him—it would be a perfectly valid which is the bane of politicians’ lives. I long for the day argument—but if he is worried that there has been when a Minister stands at the Dispatch Box and says, insufficient consultation with MYPs, he should address “Well, actually, that’s got nothing to do with me. It’s for that to the Deputy Leader of the House, because the other people to sort out for themselves.” They never motion was put on the Order Paper only today. want to underestimate their importance. The second ingredient is that their proposals must not offend anybody. Jo Swinson: Far be it from me to suggest that hon. If hon. Members have not already worked that out for Gentleman did not begin writing his speech before themselves, I ask them to look out for what happens today given that it is has lasted nearly an hour, but the whenever a politician is given a problem. If a politician motion was on the Order Paper yesterday. Given the can find a solution that incorporates looking as though medium of e-mail, the fact that he is such a strong they are doing something and not offending anybody, supporter of the YouthParliament and that he is speaking they will jump on it at the first possible opportunity. at such length, I am surprised that he could not find That appears to be what we are doing this evening. time in the past 48 hours to consult MYPs from his We want to engage more young people in politics, so area. what is being proposed is, “We have to look as though we are doing something, so we should let young people Philip Davies: The reason why we are having this sit in the House of Commons Chamber. That does not debate tonight is not the fact that the Government have particularly offend anybody, so let’s go for it.” However, given it time, but the fact that they were unable to sneak 313 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 314 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) the motion through at the end of play yesterday without UK Youth Parliament to sit here, because if we do so any objection. As the hon. Lady is so keen to debate they will be inspired and become interested in politics. such matters, I am surprised that she was not here last That is a curious argument because, by definition, those night to object to the motion going through on the nod. people who are members of the Youth Parliament are If she wants to give a lesson and set a good example to already interested in politics. That is why they are there. MYPs, she should advocate debates. Why was she not If our motivation is to try to inspire more young people up complaining that we were setting a bad example by to get involved in politics, we should be asking those simply nodding a motion through at the end of play young people who are not members of the Youth without debating it? I am slightly concerned that she is Parliament to come and have a debate here, because not doing enough to set a good example to MYPs. that might encourage them to get involved in the Youth Parliament. Why would we want to limit the opportunity James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): Does my to those members of the Youth Parliament who are hon. Friend genuinely believe that those MYPs who already interested in politics? have stayed up to watch the debate tonight will be amazed by the proceedings, the quality of the debate, Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that what is and how we spend time to debate such motions when likely to inspire young people is not so much where their other important matters of the day go by undebated organisation meets, but the strong opinions of someone here, or are given rather less time and significantly less who is prepared to stand up and speak out for the attention? things that they really believe in—as he is doing?
Philip Davies: I am certain that MYPs who are avidly Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. watching tonight will have been impressed by my hon. Unlike all the previous interventions that I have taken, Friend’s intervention, and that he has enhanced their he has pre-empted a point that I wished to make myself. opinion of the House. However, I hope he is not suggesting that we should not debate this motion. If he thinks that Stella Creasy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving the debate should not be till any hour, I presume that he way, because obviously we have not heard much from did not vote for previous the motion. The Government him this evening. Will he clarify that there are some could have tabled a motion to limit the debate so that it instances in which he would allow young people to use could last only an hour, an hour and a half, two hours the Chamber? In which case, it would appear that his or three hours, but they did not do so. It appears—I am objections are to the UK Youth Parliament rather than sure he will correct me if I am wrong—that he voted for to young people sitting in this Chamber. That would be the debate lasting till any hour. Given that, I am sure a useful clarification of his views. that he will happily live with the consequences. Perhaps in future he will not listen so avidly to the Whips when Philip Davies: The point that I am making is that they tell him how to vote. He may be signally disappointed there is no logic to the case for allowing only the UK again in the future. Youth Parliament to use this Chamber. If people take the view that no one else should be allowed to use the Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I have Chamber, it would be a sensible and rational point of listened carefully to my hon. Friend’s concise speech for view. If someone takes the view that anyone should be nearly an hour and he has taken a fair few interventions. allowed to use the Chamber, that would be an equally He has made two germane arguments. The first is that valid point of view. For the life of me—[Interruption.]The this gathering could take place anywhere other than in hon. Lady makes an intervention, but she does not this Chamber and, second, that it sets a precedent. If it seem to be particularly interested in the argument. I can does set a precedent, we will have to have another only reiterate that she must have already made up her debate and a full chance to debate it. I would be grateful mind. if he would now address himself to the actual harm that The argument that has not been made, and which he sees in allowing the members of the YouthParliament the hon. Lady must make later, is why the UK Youth to debate in this place when the Chamber is not being Parliament alone should be allowed to use the Chamber used for the legitimate business of this House. once a year for the duration of the Parliament, and why she wants to exclude every other organisation from Philip Davies: The point is that I am a Conservative—as using the Chamber. Why is that the case? Why is she is my hon. Friend—and the principle of Conservatism making that point? It is the point that I, for the life of is embodied in the saying, “If it is not necessary to me, cannot understand. The Minister did not set out change, it is necessary not to change.” As a Conservative, particularly well why the Government believe that only I believe that the onus is on those who propose change the UK Youth Parliament should be able to use the to make the case for that change. The case for no change Chamber. does not need to be made. The point that I am making in my contribution—if I am allowed to get on with Barry Gardiner rose— it—is that the case for change is a poor one. All of the arguments that have been given are spurious and do not Hon. Members: Sit down! stand up to much scrutiny. I urge my hon. Friend to ask other people to make the case for change, because they Philip Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman want to have not done so thus far. intervene? We were told earlier that allowing members of the Youth Parliament to sit here will inspire them to get Barry Gardiner: The hon. Gentleman asked the difference involved in politics. That is one of the arguments that between the Youth Parliament and any other. He has was made last time. It was said that we must allow the heard—although he may not have listened to it—the 315 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 316 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) [Barry Gardiner] political parties. Whichever side of that divide one happened to be on, it was perfectly clear where we were. response given three times this evening: every other I was a great admirer of Margaret Thatcher as Prime group has a right to stand for Parliament, but those in Minister. She was the person who inspired me to enter the Youth Parliament do not, by virtue of their age. politics. No doubt lots of Opposition Members felt They are precluded from doing that. That is why they exactly the opposite. They knew exactly which side of should have the opportunity to come and debate these the fence they were on. things here. The problem that we now have with inspiring young people to vote is that when they listen to debates, they Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman seems to think are not entirely sure which side they agree with, or even that members of the UK Youth Parliament are unique which side sticks up for their principles. Indeed, when in not being able to vote or stand for Parliament at a Tony Blair was the leader of the Labour party and my general election. That, I am afraid, is not the case. They right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) are not unique. No young people have the opportunity was the Leader of the Opposition, it was sometimes to participate in general elections, not just members of difficult for young people who were just getting interested the UK Youth Parliament. As I made clear earlier, the in politics to know which side of the political divide royal family do not have the opportunity to vote in they were on, or which way they should vote in an elections. [HON.MEMBERS: “Sit down!] Well, this is a election. My point is that if we want to inspire young repetition of an intervention. Does the hon. Gentleman people to go out and vote in elections, the onus is on us not accept my point? Prisoners do not have the opportunity to start having a battle of ideas and stand up for what to vote or stand for Parliament. People who are bankrupt we believe in, rather than just saying what we think do not have the opportunity to stand for Parliament. might be popular or politically expedient. Again he has failed to say why the UK YouthParliament To all those people who have been grandstanding in is unique. Yet again, he has spectacularly failed to here about how important it is for the YouthParliament answer that point. to sit in this Chamber, let me say this. I hope that they will go away from this debate and think about what else Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I they can do. Part of that battle might be about standing am shocked that my hon. Friend is making a socialist up and saying something controversial or unpopular point and saying that just because everyone cannot do every now and then—standing on a point of principle, it, nobody should be doing it. That is the antithesis of arguing their point of view and trying to change public Conservatism. May I also correct him when he says opinion, rather than just trying to follow it and saying that members of the royal family cannot vote? Our “motherhood and apple pie” things, in order to get a sovereign lady cannot vote, but members of the royal nice little press release in their local papers. That is not family who are not peers in their own right can vote. what inspires young people to get involved in politics, and if people think that they can cover all that with an Philip Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who annual debate in this Chamber, they are sadly mistaken. certainly is not the antithesis of Conservatism. I am Other people may want to have debates in this checking whether the Whips are still writing notes, Chamber—other people whose issues do not— because it would be helpful if they have noted that I am not the antithesis of Conservatism: that would be helpful Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. for my career prospects. I am grateful that he made the This may be a good opportunity to remind the hon. point that I am the antithesis of Conservatism. Thank Gentleman and the House of Standing Order No. 42, you for that, Madam Deputy Speaker. and to draw hon. Members’ attention to the need not to My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North allow their contributions to become somewhat tedious (Mr Nuttall) made the most salient point: younger through repetition of the same arguments. I hope that people do not vote at general elections, not because we in continuing the debate this evening, the hon. Gentleman do not allow them to use the Chamber or because we do and others will pay attention to that Standing Order. allow them to use it, but because we do not inspire them to vote. The onus is on us. [Interruption.] I note the Philip Davies: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy laughter from the Liberal Democrat Benches, but the Speaker, although I am not entirely sure to what in my point I am making is that what inspires people to vote in speech you were referring. I am certainly open to elections is people who stand up and have clear views clarification, but I hope that you will also accept that if and beliefs and are prepared to stand on matters of an intervention is repetitive, I will still want to answer principle. That is what inspires people to vote. Perhaps the question. If other Members mention a point that Liberal Democrats might wish to consider that. has already been mentioned, I will feel obliged to deal It is delusional to pretend that we can carry on as we with it, but perhaps you could give me some guidance always have done and trot out the same meaningless on that point. stuff that will not offend anybody, or that we can go around saying nothing worthwhile or meaningful and Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman hope that nobody notices, while claiming that allowing has been speaking for a long time, and as he has pointed the Youth Parliament to sit in the Chamber will inspire out, he has done his best to stay in order. However, young people to vote. Young people do not want to vote staying in order does not include questioning the Chair because they never hear arguments and ideas; they with regard to the proceedings. I therefore hope that he never hear a battle about ideas. I was lucky enough to will now continue to make the important points that he be brought up to be interested in politics in the 1980s, says he wants to make to the House, but which he has when there was a clear difference between the main not already made. 317 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 318 Youth Parliament) Youth Parliament) Philip Davies: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy helpful. If that is an appropriate figure, I think that we Speaker. I take your intervention, which I absolutely should be discussing whether that is a necessary use of accept, as a signal not to accept any more interventions. public funds in this age of austerity, and whether the I will try to work on that basis, so that I can set out the money could be spent in a better way. arguments that I wanted to set out, but which I have The views of members of the Youth Parliament were been deterred from setting out by lots of people wishing mentioned earlier by the Minister. Perhaps I can issue a to intervene in my speech. I hope that other people are challenge to him. He might like to go out and speak to just as generous when they make their speeches. young people in his constituency and ask them how One of the arguments put forward for the Youth they would like to see £30,000 to £40,000 spent for the Parliament last time was that having its debate in this benefit of the Youth Parliament. Would they want it Chamber would raise its profile around the country. spent on having a debate here? The answer may well be Hon. Members might have done some detailed survey yes—I do not know—or would they prefer the money work on that, but I would be interested to see all the to be spent on other ways of engaging young people to opinion polls that show that the public now have a take part in debates and engage in the political process? better grasp of the UK Youth Parliament than they did Is there no better use of money to deliver what we all last year, before its debates took place. That was supposed want at the end of the day—more young people engaged to be one of the key measures of success last year, so I in political activity and debate? was surprised that neither the Deputy Leader of the I was issued a challenge earlier about whether I had House nor the shadow Deputy Leader of the House—nor, asked my MYPs about their views on having a debate indeed, any of the many hon. Members who have made here, but I would issue the same challenge to all hon. interventions—made the case by saying where it is Members. Have they asked their MYPs how they would clearly stated that the UK Youth Parliament’s profile is like to spend the money that is to be spent on this now much higher. debate if they had a choice? If we ask people, “Would If we want to raise the profile of certain issues—youth you like a Rolls-Royce?”, most will say yes. If we say, issues may well be one of them—perhaps we can also “Would you like a Rolls-Royce if you had to spend the raise the profile of other issues. I do not understand rest of your life living in a tent to pay for it?”, they why we need the Youth Parliament to have a debate in might say no. Before we say to people, “Would you like this Chamber in order to raise its profile. Why would a a debate in the House of Commons Chamber?”, we debate held elsewhere not also raise its profile? I hope should put the pros and the cons and the costs to them, that Members who are in favour of the motion will deal and then ask them for their view. It might well be a with that point. different view. Young people are just as sophisticated as I would also like to talk, Madam Deputy Speaker— other people here. They may well weigh up the pros and [Interruption.] Oh, Mr Speaker, I apologise. I want to cons and come to a different opinion if all that is put deal with one of the interventions made by a Liberal before them. Democrat Member who spoke about members of the Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I would like to ask the UK Youth Parliament being unique in not being able to hon. Gentleman a very simple question. In this age of vote. The Liberal Democrats might like to have a word austerity, in which he is anxious to ensure that money is with their hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane not wasted, has he pondered the cost to the public purse (Mr Browne) who in last year’s debate made the same of his antics over the last hour or so? point that I have—that many people, including prisoners, do not have the right to vote. If my point of view is so Philip Davies: I am not entirely sure what antics the unacceptable, Liberal Democrat Members might like to hon. Gentleman is referring to. If he means giving way speak to the hon. Member for Taunton Deane. to lots of interventions, I would be very disappointed if he thought that that was some kind of antic. I thought I do not wish to go on, Mr Speaker— that the whole point of a debate in this Chamber was Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend remember the hon. that when people are making a speech and other people Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) saying in last wish to intervene, they give way and allow them to make year’s debate that he thought that the proposals for the their point. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that he does Youth Parliament to sit here were seeking to patronise not think that that is an appropriate thing to do in a one youth organisation while neglecting other important debate, I find that very disappointing. I think I have ones? been very generous in giving way to people’s interventions in order to allow them to make their point. I would not Philip Davies: I think that is absolutely right, which give way if people were not seeking to catch my eye. I brings me back to the thrust of my argument. What is hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that we so special about the UK Youth Parliament? Why is it so should curtail this debate, too, in order to save costs. If much more important than any other organisation? he is, I should point out that I did not observe him in That is a particular point. the No Lobby when he was invited to vote for a motion I want to move on to the point about cost. The to keep the debate going “until any hour”. I presume Minister did not mention the cost. I hope that he will. I that, like many others, he voted to allow it to last “until will certainly give way to him if he wants to make it any hour”. If he does not want it to last until any hour, clear. What estimation has been made as to how much it perhaps he should not have voted for that a few moments will cost for the House authorities to open up the ago. Again, he has not thought through the consequences Chamber for a day for the Youth Parliament? In last of his voting. year’s debate, the figure bandied around—I have no Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): In idea whether it was accurate or not—was between £30,000 the current age of austerity, would the hon. Gentleman and £40,000. If the Minister would like to confirm or also suggest that we ban visitors from the House of deny those figures, I am sure it would be particularly Commons to save money? 319 Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom 20 JULY 2010 Use of the Chamber (United 320 Youth Parliament) Kingdom Youth Parliament) Philip Davies: I knew that it would be a mistake to Pound, Stephen Stunell, Andrew give way to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps we can have a Randall, rh Mr John Swales, Ian chat in the Tea Room later and he can tell me exactly Reid, Mr Alan Swinson, Jo what his intervention meant, because for the life of me I Reynolds, Emma Tomlinson, Justin could not understand a word that he was saying. I am Reynolds, Jonathan Vara, Mr Shailesh sure that that is a reflection on me rather than on the Russell, Bob Wallace, Mr Ben Shannon, Jim White, Chris hon. Gentleman, however, because I know that he always Shelbrooke, Alec Wiggin, Bill makes pertinent points. Simpson, David Williams, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Williamson, Chris Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): One of Skinner, Mr Dennis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie the reasons why many of us would like to curtail this Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wright, Mr Iain debate is that it is no longer shedding any light on what Smith, Miss Chloe Young, rh Sir George we are supposed to be discussing. The hon. Gentleman Spellar, rh Mr John Tellers for the Ayes: has asked several times what inspires young people. Stephenson, Andrew Angela Watkinson and May I suggest that what inspires them is debates about Stewart, Iain Stephen Crabb things that really matter—debates about withdrawal from Afghanistan, financial cuts and Trident—not debates NOES about things that simply should not be controversial? I know a young person who is watching the debate now, Bebb, Guto Tellers for the Noes: and I know that he is horrified that we are sitting here at Rees-Mogg, Jacob Mr Philip Hollobone and 12.20 am thinking that this is a good way to spend our Wharton, James Mr David Nuttall time. May I please suggest that we do curtail the debate? Question accordingly agreed to. Philip Davies: If the hon. Lady does not want to— Main Question put accordingly. The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). 21 July (Standing Order No 41A). Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for hon. Members to vote at a The House divided: Ayes 103, Noes 3. certain point in the evening for a debate to last until any Division No. 34] [12.21 am hour, and then for those same Members to vote a few hours later for a closure motion? AYES Afriyie, Adam Green, Kate Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman asked whether that Andrew, Stuart Griffith, Nia was in order, and the simple answer is yes. If there are Baker, Steve Hames, Duncan no further points of order, we shall proceed to the Barwell, Gavin Heath, Mr David presentation of public petitions. I call Mr Peter Bone. Berry, Jake Hilling, Julie [Interruption.] Order. I know it has been a long evening, Blackman, Bob Hodgson, Mrs Sharon and I am grateful to hon. and right hon. Members for Blenkinsop, Tom Horwood, Martin their forbearance and good humour. May I just appeal Bray, Angie Howell, John to hon. and right hon. Members who are leaving the Bryant, Chris Hughes, Simon Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, because others Buckland, Mr Robert Jones, Andrew will want to hear, as I certainly do, the presentation by Burley, Mr Aidan Kawczynski, Daniel Burns, Conor Keeley, Barbara Mr Peter Bone of the public petition in relation to the Carmichael, Mr Alistair Lee, Jessica matter on the Order Paper. Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Leech, Mr John Cooper, Rosie Long, Naomi Creasy, Stella Loughton, Tim PETITIONS Crockart, Mike Lucas, Caroline Cunningham, Alex McCabe, Steve Proposed redevelopment of Rushden Hospital site David, Mr Wayne McCarthy, Kerry Docherty, Thomas McCartney, Jason (Northamptonshire) Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McCrea, Dr William Doyle-Price, Jackie McGovern, Alison Dunne, Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne 12.33 am Ellison, Jane McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Good morning, Engel, Natascha Menzies, Mark Mr Speaker. I am delighted, at just after half-past Evans, Graham Miliband, rh Edward midnight, to present this petition from the residents of Farrelly, Paul Munt, Tessa Rushden in Northamptonshire and the surrounding Farron, Tim Murray, Ian areas, which concerns the redevelopment of a hospital Francois, rh Mr Mark Newton, Sarah site. Some 25% of the people in Rushden petitioned me Gardiner, Barry Ollerenshaw, Eric to have an NHS facility on that site, but the local NHS Garnier, Mark Paice, Mr James Gilbert, Stephen Pawsey, Mark has decided to put houses on it. Glindon, Mrs Mary Percy, Andrew The petition states: Goodwill, Mr Robert Phillipson, Bridget To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Greatrex, Tom Pincher, Christopher Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled. 321 Use of the Chamber (United 20 JULY 2010 322 Kingdom Youth Parliament) The Humble Petition of residents of Rushden, Northamptonshire Dangerous Dogs and the surrounding areas, Sheweth that the proposed redevelopment of the Rushden Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Hospital site for housing is unpopular, ill-advised and detrimental do now adjourn.—(Mr Vara.) to the residents of Rushden; that over 25% of the residents of Rushden petitioned the House of Commons for a new outpatient facility in the town, the majority wanting the new facility on the 12.38 am Rushden hospital site; that the proposal to build housing on the Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I am site instead of an NHS facility is unacceptable and the impact on grateful for the opportunity finally to raise this difficult the surrounding roads of a large housing development and the density of the development and the proposed cut-through to the issue, which is not just a continuing problem for many Greenacre Drive Estate is wholly detrimental to local residents. of my constituents who find their visits to local parks and their movements on the streets and even on local Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government buses blighted by intimidating dogs and their owners. to urge the Department of Health to withdraw the planning This is a growing problem, and I am certain that it application and further urges him to request that the District affects countless others in urban and suburban areas. I Council of East Northamptonshire and the County Council and have been talking to the Royal Society for the Prevention the Primary Care Trust work together to provide a suitable health of Cruelty to Animals and I have discovered that Ealing facility on the site. is the ninth-worst borough for this problem. According And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, etc. to some of the statistics, it seems to be the fifth-worst, [P000844] so it is little wonder that so many of my constituents have wanted to raise their anxieties with me. I know that World Education Ealing council is taking the problem extremely seriously and that it is in discussions with a number of organisations 12.36 am to plan a way forward. Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I We need to be very clear about this issue because would like to submit a petition on behalf of hundreds there are different aspects to what is quite a complex of the children, parents and friends of Cavendish primary matter. One aspect is the dogs that are simply out of school in West Didsbury in my constituency. They have control. Not long ago, on Acton green, almost outside signed a petition in support of the 1GOAL Send My my house, a Rottweiler attacked a pet that was being Friend to School campaign, which calls on world leaders walked there and injured it quite seriously. The Rottweiler to ensure that all children around the world will have a had been rescued by a lady who had no intention of primary school education by 2015. I suspect that this is setting it on anything, but she clearly had not learned the first time that a petition has been submitted on the how to manage it properly. The RSPCA thinks that the Floor of the House in the form of a scarf. best way forward in such instances is to give those The petition states: owners some education in an early intervention to try to teach them how to be more responsible. I am sure that The Petition of the constituents of Manchester Withington that is the right way forward. Getting the RSPCA lined and others, up with specific cases may be a little difficult, but that is Declares that world leaders have promised that all children will a discussion for another night. have a primary education by 2015, but with only five years left to go there are still 72 million children missing out on an education I want to deal with an issue that is in many ways far completely. more serious: dogs that are intentionally trained by The Petitioners therefore request the House of Commons to their owners to be nasty and intimidating. That growing urge the Government to act quickly and decisively to ensure that menace is always about young—almost always—men the goal of all children obtaining a primary education by 2015 is with large fierce dogs attached to a lead and usually indeed obtained. fitted out with full studded collars. They are called And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. status dogs, and that is all about machismo or certainly [P000845] about displaying potential aggression. The dogs accompany those owners pretty much as a weapon, but, crucially, whereas carrying a weapon such as a knife involves a certain penalty, owning such dogs does not, which is exactly why they are the growing weapon of choice at the moment. Sometimes, drug dealers will use those dogs to protect themselves as they trade and perhaps to enforce their trade, particularly against rivals. Other people may train the dogs for fighting. Unfortunately, dog fighting is a lucrative sport, although rather a grotesque one. Other people are simply demonstrating who is boss on a piece of local territory. Innocent members of the public who go into parks with their families and pets to enjoy a day out do not know whether or not those dogs will be let off their leads at any stage, and if they are, they do not know whether or not they will then run after them and attack them, their pets or, worst of all, their children. Frankly, it is absolutely unacceptable that, instead of being able to enjoy their day out, they must spend their time looking over their shoulders. 323 Dangerous Dogs20 JULY 2010 Dangerous Dogs 324
[Angie Bray] Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Last weekend, I visited Pets Corner on Bank street in Rawtenstall, What can be done to tackle this menace? I am not which is a town in my constituency. Pets Corner will expert in the field and it will be for others who are to microchip dogs for less than £10. Does my hon. Friend find the right solutions. My purpose is to urge the agree that as the cost of microchipping has fallen to Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs such an extent, and given that, unlike a dog licence, it is to get moving on the issue as quickly as possible. a whole-life solution, now might be the time to consider I have received some ideas from the organisations compulsory microchipping? that I have spoken to. First and foremost, I do not believe that going after dog breeds is the right way Angie Bray: We should consider microchipping because forward. I have my doubts about the Dangerous Dogs it offers a good approach to encourage more responsible Act 1991. Pit bulls may look vicious, but they are not dog ownership. Whatever else one says, it means that necessarily born vicious. Like any other dog, they are the owner is indelibly linked to the dog and will therefore just born; what happens next can turn them into something be much more concerned about how it behaves, especially altogether more unpleasant. The problem with pit bulls, if they have to take responsibility for that. Microchipping of course, is their physical size and strength. If an has an important part to play and I welcome the fact owner sets out to turn them into something nasty, they that many rescue centres, including Battersea, send out turn into something quite lethal, but that is not how all their dogs with microchips, which means that we they start out. My contention is that we should be know that they are properly registered, which is an targeting not dangerous dogs, but dangerous owners. important step forward. However, given that much of Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I want to support that the problem is due to people who think that they and view. I represent Battersea, and Battersea dogs home is their dogs are beyond the law, I suspect that that will a great source of expertise. It says that those dogs come not be the whole answer to dealing with awful dogs. through its doors as the victims of irresponsible back-street I have been given a couple of straightforward, simple breeding and irresponsible ownership. It is a tragic sight ideas that could really help without increasing the need to go to the dogs home and see many dozens of abandoned for resources. The first, which was put to me by my local dogs that have little chance of being re-homed because police, is the introduction of a new type of court order someone bred and treated them irresponsibly. that would be attached to the sentence of anyone found Angie Bray: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. guilty of any kind of crime involving violence or drug I know Battersea dogs home well. In fact, I got my first dealing. I am not saying that the order should apply to rescue dog from Battersea dogs home, so I know what the first offence, but it might apply to a second and it fantastically good work it does. It is very much involved almost certainly should apply to a third. The court in the discussions about how we can get more responsibility order would provide that a person found guilty of such into dog owning. I look forward to hearing more from it a crime would be banned from being in control of a dog about what it has to say. in a public place for x years—I leave it to others to decide the time, but I would suggest about five years. Obviously, we must find out how we can best get rid The police say that they know their local criminals, so if of the threat in our open spaces. Who can do that? they saw those people out and about with a dog, they Obviously, we have the police and safer neighbourhood would find it easier to know that they should intervene teams. Councils employ park rangers and dog wardens. quickly. I purposely talk about being in control of a dog Of course, the problem is one of resources. The Metropolitan rather than owning one because the order would mean police have also set up a status dog unit, which has been that those people would not be allowed to have any dog fully supported by the deputy Mayor of London, Kit with them over that time period, including if they were Malthouse, who is doing a lot of work in this respect. walking their grandmother’s poodle. That approach The new unit is operating effectively throughout London, would allow the police to intervene on people with a but it is still relatively small, so we need to think about violent record. how we get resources into addressing the problem. My local police are frank in telling me that if someone says My second simple idea, which I know that Ealing that their dog has been attacked by another dog, the council is considering—I am sure that other local authorities police will not intervene—they say that dogs fight each are also considering it—is to attach conditions on dog other—because they do not have the necessary resources. ownership to tenancy agreements. Those conditions However, as I have pointed out, the problem is that if a could range from banning dogs from certain properties, dog is attacked today, that might be a child tomorrow. which would be a good idea for tower blocks, to limiting Given the question of resources, I am wary about ownership to only one dog. The conditions could certainly bringing back the old licensing system, which probably deal with dogs that are a nuisance to neighbours. If cost more than it raised. An annual round of licensing neighbours complain about a dog, it should be easy to would impose an additional tier of bureaucracy on ensure that either the owner agrees to get rid of the dog owners, and the trouble would be that the good guys or they have to move out. The microchipping rules would get the licences while the bad guys would ignore would help with that, too, because if dogs that run them. I am also aware that we must look after our amok are microchipped it is much easier to find out pensioners, who often depend on animals for company who owns them. more than anyone else, so I do not particularly want to I appreciate that those measures will not deal with impose anything on them. However, I might be persuaded the whole problem, but they would at least begin to of the case for a one-off dog licence—a life licence—that provide people with some reassurance that the worst would involve making a payment when the ownership owners were being targeted, and that their ability to use of a dog was taken up, provided that the revenue was intimidating dogs to threaten their community was properly ring-fenced for policing dangerous dogs. being removed. 325 Dangerous Dogs20 JULY 2010 Dangerous Dogs 326
I am a long-standing, enthusiastic dog owner. I have legislation involving dogs with considerable trepidation, had two rescue dogs. The first came from Battersea because our track record is not brilliant, but we are at dogs home and the second from the Blue Cross, and the stage where we need a lead Minister, a lead agency both were difficult dogs to begin with. One in particular and a lead Ministry to pull together those various had had a bad start in life and had been badly treated by strands. We need a solution to the problem of the their owner, and both were tricky, but my partner and I ordinary family enjoying an al fresco afternoon and devoted a lot of TLC to them and in the end they meal while quietly picnicking in, say, Pitshanger park, a turned out to be very nice dogs. The reason why I piece of land that abuts both our constituencies, when mention this is that, importantly, dog ownership cannot suddenly a dog comes bursting through to the delight of be taken lightly. It requires a certain amount of dedicated the people who are supposed to be responsible for it. time in which the dog must be socialised as well as cared That is threatening, bullying, vicious and dangerous, for. The dogs that I have been largely concerned with in and it destroys young children’s trust in open spaces and this debate are those that receive none of that TLC. the open air. They endure a life of cruelty and training to turn them We need to have a solution to the problem at the time. into something lethal. Their owners have absolutely no The hon. Lady is absolutely right; we have the police, sense of responsibility towards the communities in which the safer neighbourhoods teams, the dog wardens, the they live, and it is precisely those people whom we need RSPCA and so many other agencies. We need to draw to target. up an established protocol, hopefully Government led, I know that the issue is already under consideration which can pull together those agencies and link up with at DEFRA, but we do need more urgency. During these the other issues. I mentioned the Home Office, but the summer months, in particular, when people want to be Department for Communities and Local Government out enjoying their open spaces, it really is offensive is also relevant. Most council property and registered when they have to share quite limited space with someone social landlord tenancies contain the clause that the who is setting out to make them feel nervous and tenancy will be nullified if its terms and conditions are intimidated. That is a real blight on people in London, not kept to. Although not all of them specifically exclude in suburbs and in urban areas throughout the country, dogs other than companion animals and guide dogs, and we really need to lift that blight as soon as possible. all—almost without exception—will have a clause saying that the tenant or their agents are enjoined not to cause annoyance or nuisance to neighbours. The dogs that we 12.52 am are discussing are demonstrably that. Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I congratulate We have laid the problem before the Minister, and we the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie look to him with confidence to provide the solution. Bray) on securing this Adjournment debate about a The extent and scale of the problem is exemplified by subject that is of increasing importance not just to this meeting across the Chamber; just as the hon. Member those of us in the suburbs, but to people throughout the for Ealing Central and Acton and I meet in Pitshanger country. park, we meet across the Chamber today. The problem Last Sunday afternoon I was delighted to be present being debated is increasingly serious and, sadly, we are at the Framfield allotment association, and I met a at the stage where a child could be seriously hurt. A Brindle Staff that had been rescued from a dog-fighting whole community is being threatened. We look with ring. That dog had been saved, and it revealed a gentle confidence to the Minister for a solution. sweetness of character, but, had it remained with those 12.56 am who tortured it to torture other people, it would have become the slathering beast that they wished it to be. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Dogs can be rescued, but importantly, we are faced with Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I congratulate a problem that revolves around three areas. my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) on securing this debate on an First, dogs are used in the commission of crime. They important subject. I assume that it is her first Adjournment can be used to force someone to hand over their possessions. debate, and she has got off lucky; my first Adjournment People are threatened with the dog, which is a weapon debate was called at 3.15 in the morning, so this is early in that criminal activity, and they are also used in many by comparison. cases to guard drug dealers or drug stashes. I fully understand the importance of the issue that Secondly, there is dog fighting, but the Metropolitan my hon. Friend raises. Members who, like me, represent police force has been very proactive, and the hon. Lady more rural constituencies do not see the problem as tangentially referred to Inspector Jenkins of Ealing much as my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for police station, who has been closely involved in that. Ealing North (Stephen Pound) do. Nevertheless, we are Thirdly, there are the dogs that are simply brought up very aware of it. I respond directly to the challenge of in chaos. One can walk into a small flat on the sixth or the hon. Gentleman: the issue of dangerous dogs falls seventh floor of a tower block and see eight or nine squarely within the remit of the Department for dogs running wild, and that is cruel to the dogs, vicious Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. He is right about for the children who live in the flat and destructive to cross-cutting with other Departments. My noble Friend the community. Lord Henley is directly responsible for that part of the The problem is evident; the solution is one that we Department’s activities, although, as I shall try to have to address. I have always admired the Minister, but demonstrate, there are areas on which we work closely I have some sympathy for him in this case. We are with other Departments. asking DEFRA to be the lead Ministry, but the subject We take the issue seriously—so much so that the moves into the Home Office’s jurisdiction and a number coalition agreement makes an explicit commitment to of others. It is a truism that we in this House enter into tackling the problem. Both hon. Members said that 327 Dangerous Dogs20 JULY 2010 Dangerous Dogs 328
[Mr James Paice] My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton referred to council housing leases and social there are many strands to the problem. There is the landlords. Earlier this year, the Department for irresponsible ownership—at the lesser end, but still a Communities and Local Government published guidance serious issue—and there is the clear problem of dogs for social landlords entitled, “Tackling anti-social behaviour: being used to intimidate and as part of the commission Tools and powers—toolkit for social landlords”. That of crime. Furthermore, there is organised dog fighting. includes the powers available under current legislation All those issues have a knock-on effect on the welfare of for social landlords to tackle dangerous dogs. More the dogs, let alone all the other problems that they cause recently, DEFRA facilitated the production of guidance society. for magistrates courts designed to help to speed up Most of us find it difficult to understand why people cases involving dangerous dogs. Last year, DEFRA would want to keep a dog, particularly one of the more issued widely welcomed guidance aimed at enforcers of vicious breeds, as a status symbol. The need that those the legislation. It was written in association with the people feel to have such a dog alongside them to bolster police and the RSPCA, as well as some local authorities, their image is probably a sign of their inadequacy. to set out the law in detail and provide advice. Nevertheless, it happens and we have to address it. I want briefly to refer to the existing legislation and Many suggestions have been made. As hon. Members then address some of the points that may take us must be aware, the previous Government commissioned forward. The 1991 Act provides the police with powers a consultation on the problem. That period has finished to take action when any dog becomes dangerously out and we are analysing the results, which we will publish. of control in a public place or a place where it has no I was pleased to hear my hon. Friend say that she does right to be. Offences under that legislation have risen not necessarily believe that the issue requires more considerably. The Act also prohibits the keeping of legislation. She made a couple of suggestions, which I certain types of dog. I understand what my hon. Friend shall come to. As I shall try to describe, there is a and the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) plethora of legislation on the matter—too much, some said about the problems of specific breeds. However, would argue. It is often a matter of enforcement. The the fact is that in 2004, 17 people were successfully Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 has become a bit of byword prosecuted for that offence, and by 2008 that figure had for hasty legislation, but the reality is that in the 19 risen to 115. The maximum penalty for keeping a keeping years since it was passed nobody has come forward with a prohibited type of dog is six months imprisonment, a a comprehensive alternative. fine of £5,000, or both. Importantly, the police have also said that the prohibition of certain types of dog is useful in tackling organised Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Will the Minister dog fighting, as it is predominantly pit bull terriers that give way? are used. I hear the point made by my hon. Friend about the problem being the owner, not the dog, but Mr Paice: Very briefly. there is a bit of a caveat to that—certain dogs are far more predisposed to aggression. Why else does everybody Martin Horwood: I am grateful, given the hour. Is the want to use a pit bull? Clearly it is easier to use them; we Minister aware of the Bill proposed in another place by do not see many fighting chihuahuas around the my noble Friend Lord Redesdale, which is intended to countryside. tackle some of the issues to do with ownership and microchipping, while shifting comprehensively away from Martin Horwood: Will the Minister give way? the specific list of obscure breeds towards the deeds and behaviour of the dog, and indeed the owner, which Mr Paice: No, I cannot, I am sorry. I am really tight seems to get to the crux of the issue that the hon. Lady for time. rightly identified? What is his view of that proposed The 1991 Act strengthened the powers available to legislation? magistrates courts to place controls on dogs under the Dogs Act 1871. Those controls can be about muzzling a Mr Paice: We are very much aware of Lord Redesdale’s dog, keeping it on a lead, excluding it from specific Bill. My noble Friend Lord Henley is looking at it very places or having it neutered. The maximum penalty for carefully and trying to work with Lord Redesdale on it. failing to comply is £5,000. We have our doubts about some aspects, but I recognise The Offences Against the Person Act was passed that it is a noble attempt to try to deal with the problem. back in 1861 but is still valid because of the point that Part of the problem has been the lack of enforcement the hon. Member for Ealing North made—it can be across the country. We clearly want to see better used in a situation in which people use a dog as a enforcement, and we have provided better guidance and weapon. The maximum penalty is five years in prison. funding for training in police forces. Both hon. Members There is also the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the who spoke referred to the Metropolitan police, who Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005. have their specialist status dogs unit to target the problem. The consultation that was carried out recently addressed That has resulted in more dogs being seized year on a range of issues, such as extending the current criminal year in the London area. I understand that between offence in the 1991 Act of allowing a dog of any type or April 2004 and April 2005, just 42 dogs were seized, by breed to become dangerously out of control to private 2008-2009 the figure had risen to 719, and it is expected property where a dog has a right to be but where it may that in the past year up to April 2010 the figure will have well still be a danger to young children. There is also the been 1,100. That dramatic increase demonstrates the serious problem of attacks on public workers, particularly importance of the issue. postal workers, in gardens or drives. It also invited 329 Dangerous Dogs20 JULY 2010 Dangerous Dogs 330 comments on whether the prohibition of certain types matter for the Home Office, and I will try to ensure that of dog should be repealed, as we have discussed, or it is aware of it and gives it the consideration that it extended to other breeds. merits. The idea of compulsory insurance was given short The Department for Environment, Food and Rural shrift. The then Government put the matter in the Affairs and the whole Government take the matter very consultation and rightly decided quickly that it was not seriously. We are aware of the concerns and I am the right way forward. People’s advice and views were grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing them to the requested on the introduction of dog control notices, attention of the House. I promise her that we will not let and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to the matter slip. Animals has indicated that improvement notices have Question put and agreed to. been successful. It considers that dog control notices 1.7 am could also work well. House adjourned. Some people advocate compulsory microchipping. At the moment, our view is that as with licensing, the people whom we are trying to address would not do it. One could argue that dogs found without a microchip would be destroyed, but we would end up with the CORRECTIONS serious problem of having to destroy a large number of dogs. Again, the majority would be paying for the sins of the minority. Official Report, 14 July 2010: In Division No. 24, column 1030, add Conor Burns to the Ayes. Finally, my hon. Friend proposed that anyone convicted Official Report, 19 July 2010: In column 118, the of a violent or drug-related offence should not be intervention attributed to Mr Graham Stewart should allowed to have control of a dog. That is clearly a have been attributed to Mr Stewart Jackson.
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regeneration company, the city council and—I will say Westminster Hall something about this later—the Northwest Regional Development Agency, whose work in recent years all of us have great cause to be thankful for. Tuesday 20 July 2010 In Manchester, we also have the Sharp project, which works with cutting-edge digital and creative media and [MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] provides jobs particularly for young people in the emerging industries around video games. I was disappointed that North-West Economy the Government decided in the Budget to take away the allowances and incentives for the video games industry. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Just a few months ago, Salford received £1 million to be now adjourned.—(James Duddridge.) pump-prime development of some of the tremendous emerging technology involved in video games, and it is a 9.30 am retrograde step to take that allowance away. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I am delighted Digital and creative media currently account for 7.3% of to have secured a debate on the future of the new GDP in the north-west. I absolutely believe that they economy in the north-west and to be joined by so many are a growing sector and one in which we need to colleagues from both sides of the House. We will no continue to invest. I make no apology for saying that I doubt have a lively and interesting debate on an issue will bang on about MediaCityUK to every Minister I that is incredibly important for us and for our constituents, can because, in this instance, I do not really care where as well as for businesses, employers and employees in the investment comes from, as long as it keeps coming our areas. into Salford and helps my community. We all know in our hearts that the new economy will The second area we need to concentrate on is advanced be very different from the economy that we have seen manufacturing, and I have no doubt that many of my over the past 20 or 30 years; it will certainly not be built colleagues will talk more about it. We are incredibly simply on financial services or run in the south-east, proud of the aerospace industry in the north-west, and with the engine of growth located in one particular part we jeopardise at our peril the extensive high-level skills of the country. If it is to be successful, it will have to be that have been developed in the industry over many driven by the regions, which have tremendous skill, years. The industry accounts for 12.9% of our GDP, expertise, depth of knowledge and creativity, as well as giving the lie to the claim that manufacturing no longer the ability to expand into new areas in which this really exists in this country. country will have to be competitive if we are to continue Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): to ensure that our people have the opportunities and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for securing the skills that they desperately need. Nowhere is that truer debate and I am glad that she specifically mentioned than in the north-west, where we already have a fantastic manufacturing, which is still of huge importance to base on which to build. constituencies such as mine. Does she agree that one of I want to concentrate on a number of issues, including the biggest concerns among manufacturers—certainly digital media and the creative industries, about which those I speak to—is what they perceive to be the my region has a great story to tell and which have a Government’s lack of understanding about the relationship great future; the importance of green jobs, in particular between the public and private sectors? Manufacturers some of the advanced manufacturing jobs; the emerging in my constituency have clients across the world, but a areas in the biosciences and the importance of research key part of their business is supplying the public sector. and development in building on innovation in our The Government are ruthlessly cutting public sector universities; and, finally, the construction industry, which procurement in the Budget, and manufacturers will be is not always seen as a new industry, but is increasingly unable to drive the country out of recession and back adapting to new innovations and construction techniques, into growth if they do not have the necessary support which will give the north-west a significant competitive and stimulus from the Government. edge. The creative industries are inevitably closest to my Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend makes an extremely heart because of the establishment in Salford of important point. The Government’s choice to take an MediaCityUK, which has emerged like a phoenix from extra £40 billion out of the economy—over and above the ground over the past couple of years. Anybody who what the Labour Government would have taken out to visits Salford Quays cannot fail to be impressed by not reduce the deficit—runs the severe danger of tipping us only the buildings but the whole sense that a new back into recession. All the independent forecasters say city—a new metropolis—is being created in what was that the north-west is recovering, but that that recovery the Salford docks. It is difficult to believe that we now is tentative, and they do not expect to see full growth employ more people on Salford Quays than we did at until 2013. the height of the docks’ success in the 1940s and 1950s. Advanced manufacturing jobs are also essential to This is a tremendous success story, and when the current the green agenda, but I am increasingly worried that, phase of development is completed, we should have although we talk the talk about new green jobs to draw 15,500 new jobs and £500 million of investment. That in investment, some of the action that is taken is almost includes £450 million of private sector investment, which in opposition to the need to invest in green jobs. At the will have been levered as a result of the excellent work end of last week, a report published by Innovas and done by all the agencies involved. The current private- commissioned by the Manchester Commission for the to-public investment ratio is about 4.5:1 so this is a big New Economy looked specifically at growth in green success story, and it is down to the work of the urban sectors. It said: 3WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 4WH
[Hazel Blears] Manchester, Cheshire and the northern part of the region to prosper, and giving them proper connections. “Greater Manchester is a leader in the UK in carbon capture That is fundamental to what we are trying to achieve. If and storage technology, additional energy sources such as biofuels we can get support for the city region, it could be a and contaminated land remediation. It is also strong in alternative model for other city regions in the future. I urge the fuels…and above average in wind energy, low carbon building Government to proceed with that. technologies and energy management…Greater Manchester has the potential to be a world leader in low carbon building technologies”. Even when there is devolution of housing, transport However, we have heard only this week of massive cuts and planning, the issue of skills continues to be a in the funding to the green investment bank and in the challenge, as it has been for many years. There is a big proposed seedcorn funding to make sure that new jobs skills gap between young people’s qualifications and can be developed, particularly in manufacturing. abilities and some of the new jobs on offer. Unless we The final area that I want to mention is the biosciences. close the gap there will continue to be generations of They are not new to Greater Manchester, but the rate of people without work. The north-west has the highest growth in the numbers of people working in research percentage of neighbourhoods—more than 20%—in and development and in exploiting some of the technology the most deprived 10% in the country. We have more that is increasingly coming from our universities is very out-of-work benefit claimants than any other region: encouraging, and I have no doubt that colleagues with nearly 700,000 people are out of work and in receipt of more experience than me will make a contribution on Department for Work and Pensions benefits. That is the issue. about one in six of England’s workless population. We have 375,000 people who have been claiming out-of-work To attract all that investment and to keep doing so benefits for two years or more, with 308,000 of them well, the north-west must have the right climate, and I claiming for incapacity. In addition, 9.3% of our working emphasise to the Minister and other colleagues the age population is in receipt of incapacity-related benefit. importance of the city region. A consultation has been That is not just a waste for the economy but a waste of going on for the past couple of months—indeed, I lives—of opportunities and life chances for many people. think that it closed on Friday—about whether to confirm the statutory nature of the country’s first city region, One thing that we should do to ensure that the which comprises the 10 local authorities in Greater economy prospers is tackle the deep generational structural Manchester. That is not just about moving governance worklessness in some communities. I commend the around or about process; at its best, it should be about pilots that are happening in Greater Manchester on the devolution of planning skills, housing and transport connecting people to opportunity. They are a new way from Whitehall to the city regions so that they can of doing business and have been designed and championed provide the right climate to draw in investment. There is by Chris Marsh, who works for the urban regeneration no point addressing the skills gap if we do not have a company in Salford. He has been commissioned on decent housing offer, and there is no point trying to behalf of all 10 authorities to consider how to drill draw in investment if the planning system cannot get down into the families where there is generational that investment on the ground and working as quickly worklessness. The early results are extremely encouraging. as possible. He has adopted a system called Total Place in which all Despite their different political persuasions, the the agencies—health, police, regeneration, education authorities in Greater Manchester have sat down and and employment services—are brought together. Budgets been very mature about agreeing—the Government will are pooled, the same targets are agreed and there is the perhaps not like this phrase—to pool their sovereignty same evaluation. That means more efficiency; things are and work for the interests of the people of Greater not done 10 times. Everyone is targeting the families Manchester, which is vital. On transport, for example, with the most problems. It makes absolute common the chamber of commerce says that connectivity with sense. The total public sector budget in Greater Manchester, the northern rail hub, the super-port at Liverpool and across all the agencies, is £22 billion. No one can tell me Manchester airport, which my colleagues will no doubt that we cannot get some efficiencies and savings, but talk about, is key to our future prosperity. also better results, by bringing together such public sector resources under the Total Place scheme. The Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I congratulate my right pilots, which are getting people back to work because hon. Friend on securing this important debate. She will every agency is involved in targeting the relevant families, be aware of the importance of the proposed new Mersey are a huge success. Gateway, which the Labour Government committed I want to ask some pointed questions about how we themselves to before the election, but which the current are to work in the future. The Northwest Regional Conservative Government have postponed, pending a Development Agency has been a success story by anyone’s review. How crucial is that to the north-west region, measure. It is probably second to none in the way it has both as an important link for Cheshire and Merseyside, levered investment into the region. There has been great and more widely? That needs to be considered along confusion about where the new Government want to go with the rail links that my right hon. Friend mentioned. in relation to RDAs. The Business Secretary appeared All the innovations and new industries will come about to change his mind three times in the space of just one only if the infrastructure is established. speech. I think that we now know that the Government intend to abolish RDAs, and many of us are very Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend is right and has concerned about that, but we are not sure what is likely championed those ideas for a long time. The proposals to take their place. Local authorities have been asked to are important because, without the infrastructure it consider setting up local employment partnerships with will not be possible to draw in the investment that will business. We are not sure at what level that will be, or provide jobs and prosperity, enabling Merseyside, Greater how many clusters of local authorities will be involved. 5WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 6WH
Will they follow the economic footprint, which is a it for work. At a time of fragile recovery, as my right matter of practical common sense, or will they be hon. Friend mentioned, that is very important. I would artificial structures that will not, in my view, work? encourage the Government, and hope that she would too, to make the relevant decisions quickly so that Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I wonder further damage is not done to firms that have no other whether my right hon. Friend agrees with me that one work and will end up unable to take up the slack if of the most worrying things about the present situation projects are approved. in relation to the Northwest Regional Development Agency is the effect on the many relationships that have Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend makes an important been built up around it. I have been going around my point about certainty. Hon. Members will all know that constituency talking to representatives of big business uncertainty is often more damaging to businesses than and smaller business—I was at Unilever yesterday. Local knowing what is to happen, which at least means they economic partnerships may be two years down the line, can plan. I disagree with the Government’s decision to and that leaves a hiatus. Those relationships and the take an extra £40 billion out of the economy at such a work that was being done are falling by the wayside. time. That decision was a matter of choice. The implications Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend is right. In her relatively that my hon. Friend has outlined are very important. short time in the House she has made a tremendous contribution to highlighting those issues. She understands Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): May we have a that in many cases business works on the basis of bit of balance in this? Labour Members are talking of relationships, and that some long-established relationships their areas, and I wish to talk about my constituency are in danger of fracturing and disappearing in the of Weaver Vale, which is a Cheshire constituency. The interim. We need to get on with whatever is going to be previous Government cancelled Mid Cheshire college’s done, and make sure that it is properly established. new campus, an investment of £30 million. The college It is important, too, as we proceed with the local invested a considerable amount of money in the project, economic partnerships, that when investment is drawn including £2 million in architects’ and consultants’ fees, in local people should have the opportunity to get the and all the other stuff that has to go with such jobs, but jobs that are on offer. I urge the Minister to talk to his the right hon. Lady’s Government cancelled it 18 months colleagues in the Department for Education. For those ago. of us who were lucky enough to get Building Schools My children go to a state comprehensive school, but for the Future programmes in our constituencies—many it has 30-year-old portakabins where the windows do of us did not, and are rightly angry about it—I want the not shut and the doors do not close. That, however, is in contracts for those major public building projects to Cheshire, not Greater Manchester, Merseyside or the include apprenticeships and construction job opportunities other conurbations that have been invested in over the for local people. My hon. Friend the Member for past 13 years. Some areas of the north-west are regarded Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) is right to as prosperous and leafy, but they received no money say that 40 per cent. of the construction sector’s business from the Labour Government during the past 13 years. depends on public sector projects. Many BSF programmes would have employed bricklayers, joiners and plasterers Hazel Blears: The hon. Gentleman needs to have a and those jobs are now lost to our economy. word with his predecessor, who was a tremendous champion Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I congratulate for his area. my right hon. Friend on the fact that her constituency has BSF programme funding. My constituency, of course, Graham Evans: My predecessor did not stop that has missed the opportunity. We are talking about job cancellation. creation. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would have been an excellent opportunity for apprenticeships? Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. In my constituency 25,000 weeks of apprenticeship would have been created, and many jobs, on which we Hazel Blears: I think, Mr Chope, that we conduct are now missing out. ourselves slightly differently in Westminster Hall. The Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend is right. The decision hon. Gentleman needs to speak to his predecessor. It is has completely wasted an opportunity to create for her clearly important that all children and young people constituency’s young people access to high-quality training, have the opportunity to learn in a good environment proper qualifications, and work experience on the job in with state-of-the art information technology, and many a building environment. This country needs those skills, of my colleagues here today were looking forward to so the decision is particularly short-sighted. their children having that possibility.The Tory Government have denied that opportunity to many thousands of Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I congratulate children across the region. my right hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I have some specific questions for the Minister and Two schools in my constituency were in line for BSF then I shall sit down as I know that many other Members wave 1, starting this year. Sefton council spent more wish to speak and I do not want to dominate the debate. than £1 million in preparation for BSF, and that will The first is about the local economic partnerships. What now be wasted. are they, and what is their legal status? If they are to I am also concerned about the review of other channel investment, particularly European funds and major projects in the north-west, besides BSF, such as the new regional growth fund, they will need some transport and infrastructure projects—and the effect on status rather than being a loose amalgam of people who the construction industry and the trades that depend on come together on an occasional basis. 7WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 8WH
[Hazel Blears] 9.55 am
Will the partnerships be funded? I understand that David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I congratulate £300 million has already been cut from RDAs nationally the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel this year. The original RDA budgets were £2.2 billion a Blears) on securing this important debate and on her year over the next two years, a total of £4.4 billion. The speech, the first half of which I pretty much agreed with. regional growth fund announced by the coalition It is important to put the size of the north-west Government is only £1 billion over two years. That is a economy into context. I shall talk about the regional massive cut in the funding available to support inward development agency, but even in its heyday—before the investment. This year, the Northwest Regional Development cuts imposed about a year ago by Lord Mandelson, Agency has suffered a cut of £52 million, which leaves it which were greater than this year’s cuts—regional aid a budget this year of £235 million, a cut of almost 20%. for the north-west amounted to 0.2% of our economy, At what level will the local economic partnerships which is worth about £120 billion. We have 7 million operate? It may be at a city region level, or an economic people in the north-west, which is a bigger population travel-to-work area. However, as my hon. Friend the than most EU countries have, and it is extremely important Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) said, to understand that Government aid is not what will many of the relationships are at a north-west level. build the world-class businesses that we need. What will be the mechanism for ensuring that, without I believe that the RDAs did much that was good, but the RDA, we have something that has a north-west it is important that all Members here today remember oversight of the economy? what the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast for How can we deal with issues that cross local boundaries? our economy in the lifetime of this Parliament. In In business, many do, including supply chains for broad terms, it said the north-west should aim to create manufacturing, which affect businesses across the region. 200,000 private sector jobs at the same time as cuts take Who will be responsible for innovation, business support, place and we will lose something like 70,000 public inward investment and access to finance such as venture sector jobs. That means that each Member in this capital funds? I doubt whether the local economic Chamber will need 3,000 new private sector jobs in his partnerships will be responsible for that. Will it be or her constituency. We should all be thinking about national organisations or perhaps the Department for how that can happen. Business, Innovation and Skills? How can we ensure If we want to fight homelessness, deprivation and that the key job of supporting innovation and the new unemployment, the creation of those jobs is vital. They jobs in the economy is carried out? At the moment, will be created only if we become—or continue to be, as business, universities and even politicians operate at the in some industries—a world-class economy. There are north-west level, and we need information about how areas where the north-west is world class—they include things are to go forward. defence, advanced manufacturing and nuclear—but we The north-west economy has been doing well, despite have to build on those. Principally, it is not about the difficulties and the worldwide global recession of Building Schools for the Future. I have lost BSF schools the past couple of years. We have been narrowing the in my constituency; that was a great disappointment to employment gap with the rest of the country faster than me and it will hurt the construction industry. In the end, anywhere else. Business survival rates are better than however, the generation of a world-class economy in those for the greater south-east and better than for the north-west will depend on innovation and how we London. Export growth is 12.2%, which is higher than proceed. the average for England. The principal question for me is whether the supply The north-west economy is a success story. However, side of our economy, particularly in the north-west, will the independent forecasting panel has said that the enable those 3,000 jobs to be created in each of our recovery is fragile and that, although we have tentatively constituencies. The supply side is vital, and three factors emerged from the recession, recovery will remain weak are important. The first is infrastructure, and I agree until 2013. At this moment, it is essential that our with what was said about the Mersey gateway, which is region receives the support that it deserves. There is a important to the north-west. The next factor is regulation, huge amount at stake for our constituencies and our and the coalition Government have made a strong start communities. by getting rid of some of the regulations stopping our We are pretty confident in the north-west that we can world-class businesses from developing. continue to thrive, but we need a Government committed The third factor is skills development. I have a real to supporting that investment and growth. I do not concern that our country is not positioned where it believe that we have that kind of Government. I genuinely needs to be. It is not a particularly political point, but believe that the big decisions made in the last couple of over the past 25 years our universities have failed to months will put us back rather than take us forward. generate the applied scientists and engineers who will be The public-sector cuts coming in the autumn, with a needed to develop the businesses the right hon. Lady predicted 600,000 job losses, will have a devastating spoke about. Twenty-five years ago, when 8% of people effect not only on our communities and our families but went to university, we produced 20,000 engineers a year. on our economy. We still produce 20,000 engineers a year, but out of five I believe that the cuts that we face are too deep and times as many graduates. To put that into context, too fast, and that they will do a great deal of long-term France produces 50% more engineers than we do—I damage. I hope that we in the north-west are strong shall not even bother giving statistics for countries such enough to weather the storm, that we do not suffer the as India or China. problems that concern me, and that we do not live to That our higher education establishments have failed regret those decisions made now that will affect us in to produce the skills in applied science and engineering the long term. that will be needed to create a world-class economy in 9WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 10WH the north-west is close to being a scandal. A number of and generating jobs, it will be tough. It also seems to me people should hang their heads in shame, because they that there is a risk of the national insurance contributions have perpetuated something of a con. Many talented holiday, which is a great policy, also being biased towards young people are leaving university unable to play a smaller companies, as is the procurement policy. part in the industries of the future. In the nuclear I have three questions for the Minister. First, can we industry, for example, the companies that will build our do more on skills? There is a critical weakness that nuclear stations will be German and French. A recent could result in the 200,000 private sector jobs in the Cogent Systems report said that we have a lack of key north-west that the OBR forecast will be needed not workers in chemical, geotechnical, mechanical and being achieved, which would be a tragedy. Secondly, are production engineering. Most ridiculous of all, National the RDA proposals centralising and do they risk the Grid is hiring engineers in—wait for it—Zimbabwe, to English regions being left outside any formal structures? make the changes to our transmission and power Thirdly, is there not a danger that our policy is orientated engineering systems across the grid. Shell hires engineers more towards SMEs than towards picking structural in Russia. Those are opportunities that young people in winners? our constituencies should be taking up, but they are not able to do so. If we are serious about rebalancing our economy away from the city, the financial services and Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Before calling oil and gas—frankly, we have had a free pass on oil and the next speaker, let me say that I intend to call the gas for a couple of decades—we cannot continue to fail Opposition spokesman and the Minister at 10.40. I in skills development. I shall be interested to hear the hope that Members will time their remarks so that Minister’s response on that point. everyone can get in. Let me turn now to my concerns about the RDA. I know that the White Paper is still to come, but the 10.6 am proposals are centralising. I agree with the right hon. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Lady’s comment that the regional fund represents a There is a real regional imbalance in this country. major reduction in budget from what the RDAs had in Whatever criteria or measures we use, almost every the past. The fact that it will be administered directly region in the country outside London and the south-east from London is a centralising measure. Notwithstanding has inferior wealth and health, which is a national how the local enterprise partnerships develop, ours disgrace and a waste of resources. We have an extremely could be the only major economy in the OECD that has congested south-east, with space elsewhere in both the no sub-regional intervention. I hope that that will not economy and the transport system. I congratulate my be the case, and that the Minister can give me some right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles reassurance about that. It is hard to believe that the (Hazel Blears) on bringing this important subject to the French, Germans, Americans and Canadians have got Chamber this morning. I agree with her on almost it wrong. It is not fair to have a Northern Ireland Office, everything, apart from what she said about the regional a Scotland Office, a Wales Office and a Government development agency, which I will come back to. office for London with economic intervention powers while the English regions are left outside. I also enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat). He made some extremely good points, but I have some questions for The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation him to reflect on. They are rhetorical questions rather and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I would not normally than arguments and relate to the fact that the relationship intervene because I know that Back Benchers want to between capital, training and the economy is rather have their say, but I must clarify that point. The regional more complicated than just training a lot more engineers growth fund is an entirely distinct element from how we and scientists—although I agree we need to do more of develop local enterprise partnerships. The funding for that. After the second world war, where were most of one is not the funding for all. I will explain later how we the world’s scientists and engineers based? In the Soviet intend to develop those partnerships. Union, which was an economic basket case. Where were there almost no trained scientists and engineers? In David Mowat: The second point on which I seek Japan, which saw huge growth. I make that point simply clarification is how the partnerships are to be funded. to stress that the issue is complicated. Business people believe that they will be funded by the Most Opposition Members have been asking what we councils that make up the partnerships. will do without the regional development agency, but I Another concern—a slightly more subtle one—is that think we will do rather better than we have been doing. our industrial regional policy is biased towards small The important thing is to ensure that money gets to and medium-sized enterprises rather than structural where it is necessary to support business, but the regional winners, such as nuclear power, defence and advanced development agencies have been a burden and a barrier manufacturing. If the regional fund is administered to getting money into the right places. From their very rather like the “Dragon’s Den” TV programme is run, it inception, they have made life more difficult in the hard to see how that can result in the emergence of north-west. Let me explain why. It was my Government organisations such as Daresbury and the Atlantic gateway who created them, so this is not a party political point. infrastructure programme. It seems to me that there is a When they were set up, money was transferred from the risk that the types of project that go forward will be rest of the country into London and the south-east, related to SMEs. We need SMEs because they drive the where there had not previously been a development economy, but they also feed off structural winners and agency. That was a mistake. This is slightly unfair, but if world-class businesses, such as BAE Systems and we add up the administrative costs of all the RDAs over AstraZeneca, and if those businesses are not growing their lifetime, we find that they come to more than 11WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 12WH
[Graham Stringer] point. More money is spent on education and health in London than in other English regions, but the gap in £6 billion, which is more than the Conservative expenditure between London and the other English Government’s first round of cuts. Is that money well regions has not been increasing as it has been in the spent? I do not think so. transport sector. Let us look at the number of jobs created. At the end When we look at the detailed projects, we can see why of March, just before the general election, a National that has happened. The public-private partnership for Audit Office report on all the RDAs was published the tube in London was very expensive. Crossrail, too, is which stated that the RDAs had claimed that, over a hugely expensive and is certainly of no benefit to the five-year period, they had created 413,000 jobs. However, north-west. The costs of those projects add up to in an independent audit of that claim said that the figure excess of £30 billion-worth of expenditure, yet we are was actually 375,000 jobs, and if the jobs that would not getting investment in the rail system of the north of have been created anyway without the intervention of England, which has railway schedules that would have the RDAs were taken out, it was only 178,000 jobs. The embarrassed Gladstone, because trains now travel more NAO recommended changing the system. I wrote to the slowly between stations in the north of England than chairman of Northwest RDA, Robert Hough, after the they did in the 1880s. That is a measure of the imbalance NAO report was published asking if he would change between the south-east and the other English regions. I the statistics, so that they told us what was really happening. know that we will have cuts, but only when we examine He replied: the major spending blocks and change them will we “It would be inappropriate to adjust any of the information make a fundamental difference. previously published.” The Treasury, which inspired the Barker and Eddington I thought that that was a bizarre reply, even though reports, has come to almost exactly the wrong conclusions Robert Hough is a good man, whom I have worked with in those reports. The Barker report says, “Well, there’s a on many occasions. The cost of those jobs is £60,000 per lot of people in the south-east of England, so we’ll job, according to the NAO. Those are terrible figures. I build a lot more homes there and spend £20 billion on say to my hon. Friends: think about it. What matters is infrastructure,” when we need that expenditure in the that we get money into the right places, not that we have north-west of England. The Eddington report said, a body that, when it was formed, centralised the grant-giving “Well, we’ve got a transport structure and, effectively, process away from local authorities. we will invest where the transport system is now.” Those The NAO report says that the measure of the RDAs’ are the most reactionary conclusions that one could activities is whether there is gross value added because come to. If this Government or any other want to do of their work. However, what the report says about something about the original regional imbalances that I GVA is its most devastating aspect. The conclusion in talked about, they must adopt positive investment policies paragraph 16 is worth reading out: that do not carry on subsidising congestion—as the “We are unable to conclude that the regional wealth benefits policies advocated in the Barker and Eddington reports actually generated were as much as they could and should have do—but instead help the economies of the regions, been, and are therefore value for money. Weaknesses which, in spread out the jobs and wealth, and improve people’s many cases, undermined the RDAs’ ability to make decisions and health by doing so. I therefore hope that the Minister set priorities to maximise regional economic wealth do not support will reject a lot of the conclusions in Barker and Eddington. such a positive conclusion. These weaknesses included poor project economic analysis and appraisal, pervasive optimism bias, and I will finish with two very small points. First, there weak evaluation. In particular, most RDAs were unaware, until are other major projects that have gone to the south-east 2009, of the types of projects which yielded the best and most of England. One of them is the Olympics. I have always enduring benefits.” thought that the only part of the United Kingdom that That is a devastating analysis. We in the north-west have should not have the Olympics is London, because one experienced those perverse policies, which have not put of the benefits of having the Olympics is that the city money into the sectors that are the major players in the that holds the games effectively receives an incredible region—the sectors that would generate the most jobs amount of advertising—it can show what it can do as a and support the economy most effectively. I look forward city. If anything, London is the capital of the world to analysing this issue and I will be as critical as I can be already; it is a great world city. It did not need the if money is not put in, but I will not defend the Olympics. indefensible in the structure of the RDAs. There is a little known and little publicised report by I accept that a lot of wealth—indeed, the vast majority— a professor in Nottingham, Professor Blake, which explained will be created by having a more fertile and active that the Olympic games in London would cost the private sector. On the other hand, when we look at some regions between £4 billion and £5 billion in economic of the causes of the current regional imbalances, I do costs, because money would be dragged into the south-east. not think that we can get away from looking at the Certainly some things will be bought from the regions, Government’s structural and spatial expenditure. Looking such as steel from steelworks in Bolton, which will help, at transport in particular—I have spent a long time on but essentially the net flow will be a cost to the regions the Transport Committee—we see some of the reasons of about £4 billion. Furthermore, Professor Blake wrote why wealth in the north-west and the other English his report during a time of economic boom. The Minister regions is not as great as it should be. Of all the may not have heard of that report, but I would be spending blocks, the money spent on transport in the grateful if he wrote to me about the update on it. south-east of England has increased per head of population My final point is in response to my right hon. Friend’s relative to every other region in the country. One can go comment about city regions. I have long been a strong over spending under the Labour Government, but that supporter of city regions. I think that today’s boundaries was happening before—this is not a party political are, in many cases, left over not from 1972 or 1971 but 13WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 14WH from mediaeval England. The boundaries of many of not only to the south-east and London. I am particularly our areas need changing. Working together to relate to keen on the development of the trans-Pennine rail link the real political economy is what having a city region is and links across the north-west, which are vital to our all about. I just hope that we do not leave the electorate growth and could use and capitalise on features such as out of the system. It should not be merely a bureaucratic our super-ports. Infrastructure in our area is key. relationship between local authorities. People must still More investment is also needed in high-speed broadband have the right to vote for the people who can influence and next-generation access, especially in rural areas. In their transport network. Wirral West, almost 55% of households are considered Once again, I offer my congratulations to my right deprived in terms of access to broadband. That applies hon. Friend on securing this important debate. to many other areas in the north-west as well. Our Government have pledged to do more to link us all up and get faster broadband access. In Liverpool, a smart 10.18 am grid project is being considered that will bring together Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I am delighted to the private sector to connect socio-economically deprived be able to speak in this debate, which has been very areas, assess their energy use and make savings. constructive so far as people come to it with various The north-west has the potential to be the European ideas and views. It is true that we are all passionate leader in renewable energy and the low-carbon industry. about the north-west, and I know that the Government We have more sites devoted to creating energy from are too; it is a dynamic and thriving part of the country. renewable sources than anywhere else in the UK, which It is also a powerhouse not just locally but for the whole gives us the capacity to generate the second largest country, and it is now viewed as one of the most vibrant amount of energy. We must see whether we can be first. parts of Europe. We have great potential to develop wind and nuclear The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel power as well as continuing to focus on wave power. In Blears) talked about manufacturing. The north-west is Liverpool bay, various private industries are combining the UK’s second biggest vehicle manufacturing area, it to consider next-generation wind turbines. We as a accounts for nearly a quarter of British chemical output, Government also need to consider where we can facilitate and it is key to the aerospace industry. We have also private industry and enterprise to gain a terrific return talked about the creative industries. The media industry that would regenerate areas, provide work and draw in the north-west is growing at twice the speed of that in money into the UK economy as a whole. Importantly, any other region of Europe, with 31,000 businesses over the past few years the north-west has been the linked to the creative sector. In Liverpool, we have Sony most successful UK region outside the south-east in Computer Entertainment Europe and Granada, one of attracting foreign direct investment projects. We have the leading commercial television production and attracted some 511 projects between 2007 and 2010, distribution companies. We also now have the introduction and the equivalent of 7,000 new jobs have been created of Media City in Salford. The nuclear industry is worth in the past year alone through 179 FDI projects. £3 billion annually, and pharmaceuticals and Greater enterprise brings better job prospects and biomanufacturing are pivotal industries employing 200,000 more employment to the north-west. That is particularly people. The region is also Britain’s biggest financial and important for the young, as we have the most professional services centre outside London. unemployment and the greatest number of young people Our area is dynamic and diverse. There is a lot that not in education, training or work. It is key for young we can do, but I am concerned about the glue that will people to know that they have a future and that investment keep it all together. The region is diverse not just in is coming into their area. There is a great drain of youth what it does but in terrain and geography. How will we to the south and south-east, and I for one would like to keep it together, looking forward to local economic keep some of those young people in the north-west. partnerships? What will happen to the regional development The north-west is responsible for 20% of UK agency? Do we need a strategic overview partner, of any manufacture of chemicals, chemical products and man- size, to ensure that momentum is maintained? We know made fibres. The sector is growing significantly, and we that the region is doing well, but on the other hand, life must ensure that it continues to do so. We need an expectancy there is lower than in the UK as a whole, investment strategy for the area. We cannot work in weekly earnings are below average and the number of isolation; we must look outward, not inward. Although jobseeker’s allowance claimants is above average. We we know that we will be moving forward with city have some of the worst unemployment statistics in the regions and local economic partnerships, how will those country, and more disadvantaged areas than any other bodies work together for the greater good of the north-west? region. We have done a lot, but we must continue to do We are considering significant investment infrastructure a lot to address the incongruities from which the region that will cross sub-regional boundaries. How can we suffers. The north-west is strong and united, but we work as a whole to raise the region from its current must prioritise it to keep it going forward. My hon. plateau? We are vibrant and doing well, but how can we Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) continue to do well, so that we can be a significant spoke eloquently about the need for education and engine of employment and growth for the whole UK? skills, and plans for next-generation access. The north-west is a main contributor to the economy 10.26 am in the field of transport manufacture, highlighting the need for continuing success in the sector. The region Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It also had the lowest average daily motor vehicle use on is important to follow on from the comments of the the roads in 2008. We must keep it that way by increasing hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey). The access to public transport. We need better rail links, and enthusiasm with which she has spoken, endorsing the 15WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 16WH
[Andrew Miller] commitment to working their socks off with us to ensure that no stone is left unturned in guaranteeing enthusiasm of my right hon. Friend the Member for that we get that project in Ellesmere Port. Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), typifies the region. It is successful. We are not on a downward slide to nowhere; Mr Prisk: That is a very specific question, to which we are moving in the right direction. Ensuring that we my answer is yes, absolutely. I have met the senior continue in the right direction is key to what happens management in the UK and internationally. Ellesmere next. I do not want to be drawn into the rights, wrongs Port has an outstanding opportunity in this regard, and and merits of the case for the regional development my ministerial colleagues and I are determined to do agency; I want to ensure that whatever we do continues everything we possibly can. I am grateful to the hon. the momentum in the right direction. Gentleman for his determined advocacy for an extremely One vehicle, for example, has been incredibly successful. important part of this country’s industrial base. The hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) appropriately mentioned Daresbury. He will know what Andrew Miller: I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. an interesting battle Labour Members had inside our I will open the negotiations on getting good value for own fraternity, with the last Prime Minister but one, money for Government car fleets. The Ampera is a very about investment in Daresbury. The science community comfortable car to drive, as one or two hon. Members chose to invest Project Diamond elsewhere. One result here have discovered. of that debate was the sensible decision to create the Other sectors within our region do not get talked Northwest Science Council, which has acted as a sounding about. We have the premier veterinary school at Liverpool board for some of the best ideas evolving. Some of the university, part of which is at Leahurst in my constituency. issues mentioned by colleagues from various parties There is a fantastic partnership between the university owe their genesis to the work done by the science sector and the private sector, from which there has been council and its prodding and poking. a huge amount of investment. We must not forget the Whatever happens within the RDA structure, I would importance of that veterinary school in the context of like an equivalent body to bring together high-level zoonosis and other areas of science that will be increasingly scientists from the important clusters represented in the important. That crossover between the public and private region, in order to ensure that we maintain the momentum sectors is critical to the future of our university structures. necessary to be world class in the fields in which we have We need to consider how we can evolve public sector high-level skills. I pose that challenge to the Minister. I jobs at the heart of such areas of research, and create am not hung up one way or the other on any particular the kind of successful spin-outs we have seen in research structure, but we must recognise that bringing together parks in other university communities across the country the science community has been beneficial. The hon. and elsewhere. How can we create the equivalent of Member for Warrington South will know that the St John’s, Cambridge in and around our north-west Daresbury site does not do obscure, blue-sky research—I university clusters? say this as somebody who used to run an X-ray laboratory Some of our universities are doing particularly well. I a long time ago, when I did a proper job—but is a began my speech with the subject of the Science Council, dynamic and growing science base that reaches into new which has led to greater collaboration between north-west areas that were never thought of when it was a single- universities. That has been encouraged by colleagues purpose laboratory. The consequence of our battle some from all parts of the House. For example, in the other years ago has been incredibly positive, and we need to place, Lord Oulton Wade, among others, and I have keep that momentum going. tried to pull together the universities and get the vice- We have also had some interesting successes in other chancellors to think collectively as a region. That has areas. A few years ago, it was presumed that the vehicle had an effect, so let us not kill the golden goose. industry would continue to shrink; in fact, the opposite I shall make one final point, which is not intended to has happened. There has been growth in output in the be negative. Will the Minister inform his colleagues in region in not just finished products, but components—from the relevant Departments that practices are going on very high end, such as Bentley in the south of the within the public sector that leave a lot to be desired? region, through the spectrum of vehicles. The success of Within NHS Wirral, there is a disguised attempt to get General Motors has, of course, been important to my rid of numbers, or reduce head-count. That organisation constituents. General Motors was presumed to be sliding is saying to people, “We don’t make redundancies.” into oblivion a while back, and we are now pleased that However, they are doing so. A constituent of mine from it does not need the loan guarantee that Lord Mandelson Neston was told unequivocally that the service she offered it just before the election. The argument between provides is no longer required. She has 36 years’ experience me and the Government has therefore become academic. as a nurse—not all in the same employment, but she That is very positive news. does have a lot of experience—and we need to maintain It is now key to consider whether we can get the such skills. However, instead of offering her a suitable Ampera into Ellesmere Port—some colleagues saw that alternative job elsewhere within the NHS that is within vehicle in New Palace Yard a while back—because it is a reasonable travel-to-work area, the employer has come a really exciting, next-generation vehicle that is the right up with a clerical job that involves working permanent platform to move us forward. The Ampera produces nights. Given her length of service, my constituent is only 40 grams of carbon per kilometre, and is the right obviously reasonably mature and, of course, all the case step forward. I hope that no one in this Chamber would law indicates that that is not a reasonable job offer. argue against having the Ampera in Ellesmere Port, so Such disguised attempts to reduce head-count cannot what I want is a commitment from the Government. I be tolerated, and I hope the Minister will pass that am not asking for their money; I am asking for their message on. I said in writing to the chief executive of 17WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 18WH
NHS Wirral that I would raise that matter, because it is I represent a constituency on the very edge of the an outrage that people with such experience should be north-west, and we have important economic ties to treated in such a manner. That is my only negative neighbouring regions, especially north Wales, so for me comment. We have to face the reality of pressures on the idea of a unified north-western economy is rather public sector jobs, but any action that is taken must be abstract. For example, few would argue that Chester’s taken in a humane and civilised manner, and in conformity economic future is more closely related to the economy with the law of the land. of Carlisle than to that of Connah’s Quay in north Wales. However, those external relationships have not 10.36 am been fully recognised, and the opportunities offered by our neighbours have not been fully followed up and Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): As we have secured. heard from all those who have contributed today, we The rigid regional attitude might even have proved to have much to be proud of in the north-west. We are be a psychological barrier to growth in areas such as already Europe’s 12th largest regional economy and we Chester on the edge of the north-west. That is why I am have a larger economy than many European Union particularly pleased that the Government are replacing countries. We are home to more than 250,000 businesses the remote Northwest Regional Development Agency and we consistently outperform in attracting inward with the more local, accountable and relevant local investment to the UK. We are a world leader in nuclear enterprise partnerships. This is not only my view, but energy, home to Europe’s largest bio-manufacturing the view taken by Cheshire West and Chester council, region, the largest centre of chemicals production and which, along with Cheshire East and Warrington borough the No. 1 exporter of pharmaceutical products. We have council, has decided to pursue the aim of having a Europe’s second-largest media hub, and the UK’s largest Cheshire and Warrington LEP.A recent statement from financial and professional services centre outside London. the Cheshire and Warrington enterprise council shows We are also the UK’s largest aerospace and defence that it is not only the elected politicians who support manufacturing region and one of the largest motor the idea of an LEP. It said: manufacturers. “A new Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP) in Cheshire & However, the north-west has not been immune to the Warrington could transform the local economy, bringing significant recent recession. Britain has had the longest and deepest benefits for businesses and residents. We should grasp this opportunity recession on record and the longest recession in the with both hands. In the longer term this will enable us to deliver G20, with six consecutive quarters of negative growth. our ambitious growth targets and really put Cheshire & Warrington on the map.” We are seeing the effect of the recession across the region, and we need to ensure that we play our part in Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): I must cut the securing our nation’s future economic and financial hon. Gentleman off there, because otherwise we will success. Our biggest challenge is overcoming the fiscal not have time for the winding-up speeches. inheritance of the new coalition Government. Failure to bring the deficit under control will only lead in one Stephen Mosley: Thank you, Mr Chope. direction—higher interest rates and higher taxes. Such a situation will suffocate growth, strangle wealth creation 10.41 am and stifle people’s hopes of a better future. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I wonder whether Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing the debate. the 1980s and early 1990s passed the hon. Gentleman Clearly, no matter is more important for us than how by? I was not the MP for West Lancashire at that time we seek to invest in our region. That is evidenced partly but, in places such as Skelmersdale, the real unemployment by the passion with which all Members who have rate was 50%. We are in a difficult worldwide recession contributed to the debate spoke about their region, and and we have lots to do. That goes for all parties. You partly by the number of Members who have attended. have your position and we have ours. I believe you are My right hon. Friend did an excellent job of pointing putting families and the needy— to the need to keep supporting the development of prosperity in the north-west and attracting inward Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. That was investment to the area. She was absolutely right to far too long an intervention. I am not involved in the identify key sectors where growth is possible and desirable. debate and I am not going to become involved. She mentioned, in particular, digital media and the need to invest in green jobs and to try to improve advanced Stephen Mosley: The hon. Lady must remember that manufacturing. I know from personal experience how there was increased employment, growth and general Manchester and Salford have been transformed in recent prosperity by 1997, because of the action taken before years. then. All Members are right to be concerned about how Taking urgent action is unavoidable and I am delighted that programme of transformation will be continued that the Government have acted decisively to bring the without an agency such as the RDA, along with its deficit under control. The Government’s swift action public and private partners, acting as a real champion has meant that we can be optimistic about the future of for the region. Several hon. Friends made interesting our region’s economy. There are two important drivers points on how RDAs have brought together the public of economic growth in the north-west: first, the and private sectors. My hon. Friend the Member for Government’s national action with respect to the country’s Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) referred to economy as a whole; secondly, the action we take locally how the agencies had brought about substantial job as Members of Parliament to involve our local councillors creation. Government Members, too, recognised the and business communities in boosting our local economies. important role that RDAs had played. 19WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 20WH
Bill Esterson: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of regional level, how they are to be addressed and what the lessons that needs to be learned from the Government’s partnerships will need to be developed locally to deliver handling of the abolition of the development agencies them? We know that local businesses need to work is the need to listen to business leaders and leaders in with education suppliers to increase the number of both the private and public sector about what is right apprenticeships and to get more employers on board, for the region, rather than just coming up with their and we know that universities are critical to the development own solutions and imposing them from the centre? of regional skills. However, it is necessary to have an overview at regional level, as the hon. Member for Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend makes an Wirral West (Esther McVey) noted in an excellent point. excellent point, and I will shortly address how the How will universities interact at a regional level without abolition of the RDAs is being handled. In response to a body to encourage them to do so? comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), I do not Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Does my hon. think that we are framing the discussion around the Friend agree with me that, with the Government Office retention of a particular structure, but we have to for the North West also under threat, there are concerns question whether LEPs will be capable of taking on the about the partnerships not only with businesses, but roles previously performed by RDAs. with the voluntary sector, which has been so well supported by that body? It is also worth asking whether the Government have a democratic mandate for abolishing the RDAs, because Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend makes an the Liberal Democrats stood on a platform of keeping important point. The key question concerns the partnerships them in areas where they were deemed to be successful. already in place and delivering at the regional level. Indeed, the coalition agreement, on page 10, states: How is what they are doing to be continued, and “We will support the creation of Local Enterprise Partnerships— developed, by the new structure? We do not know the joint local authority-business bodies brought forward by local answer to that question. authorities themselves to promote local economic development—to The regional bodies are also working to address the replace Regional Development Agencies (RDAs). These may take the form of the existing RDAs in areas where they are popular.” number of NEETs—those not in education, employment or training—and to encourage all local education providers However, that does not seem to be happening in practice. to come together and continue improving aspirations. We have been told that all the RDAs are going, but no Again, it is simply not clear how LEPs will achieve that. legislation is yet in place for that to happen and we expect a White Paper on the matter to be produced only We suggest that now might be the wrong point at in the autumn. which to get rid of RDAs, when we are not clear how LEPs will take on their functions. The degree to which The issue is about creating a structure that will deliver the Government are centralising the RDA tasks is also regional economic investment and growth. We know not clear. I am not sure that that is a sensible way that the Northwest Regional Development Agency returns forward either. about £5.20 of economic benefit for ever £1 spent, and in terms of foreign direct investment the programme 10.50 am delivers £30 for every £1 spent. That is a substantial record that will have to be met by any new structure. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation I have several questions for the Minister and would and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I begin by congratulating appreciate specific answers to them. How will the economy the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel of the north-west be affected by the removal of current Blears) not only on securing the debate but on setting a funding streams from the RDA, such as the European constructive and positive tone on what is a complex regional development fund, and the absence of an issue. I think we all share the view that the north-west is effective system for dispersing funds and managing the a part of the country with a tremendous future and a bidding process? That is particularly important, as we great industrial past; the question is, how do we enhance currently need investment in green businesses. The RDAs and develop that? The debate has been not only constructive have been successful in bringing together venture capital but thoughtful, and I shall do my best in the nine funds through European money and money from the minutes I have to canter through some of the questions, private sector to create substantial funds. so bear with me. Like much of the country, the north-west has suffered How will businesses supported by the RDA cope from the recession, but we are beginning to see early with the £1 billion reduction in the regional growth signs of improvement. How do we help to shape and fund over two years, replacing the RDA budget of enable a prosperous economy that will be different from £1.5 billion a year? That was an excellent question what we have known in the past? One of our opening asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford statements was that we as a Government passionately and Eccles. There are other questions on the advisability believe in the need to ensure that— of moving key functions from the RDA to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, such as responsibility Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I am concerned for inward investment and for fostering innovation. about the context of this debate, which the hon. Member Surely there is a need to go the other way and to devolve for Wirral West (Esther McVey) touched on. Our region those functions to local areas and enable them, particularly has many disadvantaged communities—in fact, one of regions, to set their own priorities. the highest proportions in the country. Will the Minister Several Members referred to the development of a specifically address the disadvantaged areas? His priority regional skills strategy. That, as the Minister will know, tends to be the west of the region, where the nuclear was a function undertaken by RDAs. Without that, and defence industries are located, rather than the how will we know what the skills shortages are at a deprived areas. What will he do about those? 21WH North-West Economy20 JULY 2010 North-West Economy 22WH
Mr Prisk: I am only 60 seconds into my speech, so I in the north-west averaged 1.7%, but in the greater shall do my best in the remaining eight minutes to get to south-east it was 2.3%, a gap of 0.6%. Between 2000 the part of the region about which the hon. Gentleman and 2008—the latest period for which figures are is concerned. available—growth averaged 1.5% in the north-west and We understand the need to rebalance the economy 2.1% in the greater south-east; again, a gap of 0.6%. away from an over-reliance on financial services and Despite spending £3.7 billion over the past decade, the one part of the United Kingdom. Therefore, instead of north-west RDA failed to make a difference in closing the approach we have seen in the last dozen years or so, the gap between its economy and that of the greater we need to support the renewal of the industrial base south-east. and to encourage investment and innovation, about Understandably, hon. Members may well talk about which several hon. Members rightly spoke. Some of individual projects that they feel have merit, but we have those sectors have been talked about: advanced to look at the overall impact over a decade. manufacturing, which the north-west is well supplied with, such as plastic electronics and robotics; the digital Simon Danczuk rose— and creative sectors, to which the right hon. Member Mr Prisk: I give way to the hon. Gentleman. for Salford and Eccles referred; and, as several hon. Members mentioned, green technology, which needs to Simon Danczuk: On Friday I visited Kingsway business be developed. park in my Rochdale constituency. It is one of the largest business parks in the region, if not the country, Hazel Blears: If the green industries are so important, and a good thing about it is that it is creating jobs—many which I believe they are, why are the Government businesses are starting to locate there. One of the attractions abandoning the green investment bank? is that businesses receive a relocation grant of about 20% of their costs, which has attracted businesses from Mr Prisk: The right hon. Lady is wrong. We believe all over the country. However, this week we were told passionately in ensuring that we have an investment that that grant would no longer apply. Why is that? bank with financial expertise that can deal with green What effect will that have on job creation not just in technologies. We will set that out in our papers on Rochdale but in the north-west as a whole? growth and finance, in which we will examine access to Mr Prisk: That is a long intervention, which is a credit, which is crucial to small businesses that use shame because it has prevented me from tackling the conventional technologies, as well to those that use the broader question. The individual case cited by the hon. new technologies. I know the right hon. Lady is keen to Gentleman is a classic example of the danger of the get answers, but if she can wait a few more days she will debate: we can all find an individual project that might get the answers to her questions. have merit. The question is whether the gap has closed The north-west is well placed to benefit from our in 11 years, after spending £3.7 billion. The answer, approach, involving long-term investment, a proper sadly, is no, which is why we need change. fiscal environment and, as several hon. Members have In answer to questions from those Members who said, a reduction in the burden of regulation on small spoke in the debate, I shall set out the key changes that and medium-sized enterprises. The hon. Member for we want to achieve. We need to forge effective partnerships Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) was absolutely between local business and civic leaders in our right to highlight the role of Daresbury and of excellent communities—and yes, that will mean formal, legal centres of innovation such as Ellesmere Port. I wish the entities. We want greater democratic accountability in media would look at industry with clearer eyes. They what will be vital forums in deciding local economic tend to see it as some sort of smoke-stacked centre, but priorities. The partnerships must be equal between business it has moved on a long way, and Ellesmere Port is an and civic leaders, because that will help them better excellent example of how we can progress our industrial understand the needs of local people. In response to the base. question about universities, I see universities, too, as In the time I have left, I turn to the heart of our having an important role in those partnerships. debate: the shape of our local and regional economies. As several Members said, local economic development As several hon. Members have pointed out, for many needs to be based on real economic areas. Sadly, the years there has been an evident gap between the greater boundaries of many RDAs often relate more to the south-east and the rest of the country, which has rightly administrative priorities of Whitehall or Brussels than generated discussion among politicians, economists and to the actual needs of local areas. I very much welcome business men and women. what the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles said about city regions and the various benefits and challenges. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Will the Minister Clearly, they are not relevant in every part of England; give way? nevertheless, they are an important dynamic to understand. We must ensure that the boundaries of the economic Mr Prisk: With respect, I will not give way because area that the partnership is seeking to enhance relate to the hon. Gentleman has not spoken in the debate and I the real economy of today. We need to reform the need to answer the questions asked. system by replacing RDAs if we are genuinely to strengthen In 1999 the previous Government established the the local economies of this and other areas. RDAs, which were expressly tasked with a clear goal: to Our objective is simple: to encourage strong local close the north-south gap. Unfortunately, the evidence leadership and to promote economic growth, based on shows that that has not been achieved. Let me take the institutions that match the economic reality on the north-west as a simple example: between 1990 and ground and that have the freedom, and therefore the 1999, when the RDAs were established, annual growth diversity capability, to make a real impact. 23WH North-West Economy 20 JULY 2010 24WH
[Mr Prisk] Coastal Towns (Government Policy) I also welcome what the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles said about the pilots. I am not 11 am familiar with the details that she gave, but I would be Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) (Con): I am happy to have a look at them. Total Place has considerable pleased to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Chope. merit as an approach to examining some of the underlying I am delighted to have secured this debate, which I hope questions. will give the many Members with an interest in the subject an opportunity to highlight the numerous challenges Graham Jones: Will the Minister give way? that coastal towns and resorts face and the opportunities in which they want to take part. Mr Prisk: I will not because I have less than a minute It needs to be recognised that work on coastal towns left. was done during the previous Parliament, particularly In drawing my thoughts to a brief conclusion, I by the Coastal Communities Alliance led by Lincolnshire apologise to hon. Members for having been unable to county council, and by the Communities and Local address all their questions. In my book, the north-west Government Committee, which was chaired by Dr Phyllis is an area with a genuine can-do spirit, as my hon. Starkey. I am sure that the hon. Member for Blackpool Friend the Member for Wirral West and others mentioned. South (Mr Marsden), who has just taken his place, will We in government must therefore understand and enable recall that the previous Government’s initial response to that, rather than directing and tinkering. We need to the excellent Select Committee report was hopeless and ensure that businesses can prosper and grow, which that they had to come back with another response. means, yes, creating a new economic landscape. For a Also, the academic research of Professor Steven Fothergill few weeks, the level of clarity and certainty might not of Sheffield Hallam university, particularly his be perfect, but we will set out our further plans over the benchmarking study, has informed much of the debate coming weeks, and we look forward to dealing with the on coastal towns. various requests appropriately and thoroughly. During that period, several hon. Members, some of whom are here this morning, some of whom are not, took a particular interest in the issues that affect coastal towns. There is no doubt that there was a general feeling in many coastal towns, particularly in England and Wales, that the previous Government sidelined them and did not give them their fair share of resources or put them at the forefront of policy thinking and policy making. I am proud to have in my constituency Skegness, which is one of the country’s most famous seaside resorts. Members may not be surprised to hear that, according to Saga, it is the number one place in the UK to retire to. It is still a popular family tourist destination, with 600,000 visitors each summer and 26,000 caravans on the east Lincolnshire coast. I am pleased to report that, unlike some other historic coastal towns, Skegness is still a thriving success. It achieves that by continuing to attract visitors, from the UK in particular, but also by its private and public sectors working together, with excellent locally led innovation and entrepreneurial flair making a significant contribution. Skegness is not alone. Most of Britain’s coastal towns have many positive features, including attractive scenery, excellent leisure activities and some significant Victorian and Edwardian buildings, but they are also significant and important economic bases. The population of our coastal towns is approximately 3.1 million, which is more than the total population of Wales. Members may be aware of the recent report produced by Professor Fothergill’s team, which concluded that 210,000 people are employed in tourism alone in coastal towns—more than are employed in the UK in the pharmaceutical or motor industries, or in radio and television combined. Economic activity in coastal towns contributes £3.4 billion to the UK economy. It is clear that such towns are assets, not liabilities, and need to be treated as such. I am delighted to see Members here from all corners of the UK, but it is important to remember that, despite there being commonalities among coastal towns, each one is different, and each faces its own unique set of 25WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 26WH challenges. I am sure that other hon. Members will RDAs and other quangos that did not really understand wish to highlight some of those that pertain to their the importance of coastal towns and the complex issues constituencies. involved. I very much hope that that will not be seen as It is important to set out some of the key challenges a role for the public sector only, but that the private, that are common to most coastal towns. The first is that voluntary, charitable and social enterprise sectors, which they have severe pockets of socio-economic deprivation. I believe have a significant role to play, will be stimulated. Twenty-one of the 88 most deprived authorities are in One of the key messages that I want to get across this coastal areas. There are high levels of benefit dependency: morning to the Minister is that although many coastal 15.2% of the working-age population in coastal towns towns recognise that they must play their part in sharing claim benefits, compared with 12.6% across the rest of the burden of reducing expenditure that will inevitably the UK. The average incapacity claimant rate in seaside come from the Government’s difficult decisions, they towns is well ahead of the English average. There is must not take an unfair share of the burden. We all poor housing stock in many of our coastal towns, accept that there will be tough spending settlements for with 50% described as “non-decent” compared with local authorities, Government Departments and Executive approximately 30% elsewhere. agencies, but we need to ensure that they do not have a Coastal towns face significant environmental challenges disproportionate, negative impact on many of our coastal such as rising sea levels, storm surges and eroding towns. coastlines. There are low levels of employment: the Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): average unemployment rate is significantly higher in When large Departments have to make cuts fairly deeply coastal towns than it is elsewhere. Those complex and and relatively quickly, the tendency is to cut out all the interrelated issues need to be addressed in a co-ordinated smaller centres of service provision and concentrate on and comprehensive way. the larger centres. That works against rural communities and coastal towns. Does my hon. Friend agree that, Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I am grateful to although we recognise the severity of the situation and the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for securing this the need for speed, Ministers need to give local people debate. My constituency includes Formby and parts of the opportunity to deliver the savings and find a way of Crosby and Hightown, which are coastal towns. Among doing so that does not denude coastal towns and rural other things, the Sefton coastline is characterised by its areas of the services on which they depend? 20 miles of sand dunes. He mentioned the environment, which is an important issue to my constituency and to Mark Simmonds: My hon. Friend makes a powerful, that of my neighbour, the hon. Member for Southport important point. I understand that the Government (Dr Pugh), who is also here today. Does the hon. direction of policy is to do exactly what he requests, in Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) that decisions should be devolved down to the lowest agree that it is vital to continue investment in, support possible level and those who really understand the for and investigation of adequate sea defences for coastal needs of each community. One significant fault of the towns? previous Government was that they regarded centralised decision making as the solution to many of these problems Mark Simmonds: I thank the hon. Gentleman for as and they lacked understanding of the needs of and that critical intervention. He is right to highlight the changes in specific local communities and how to reflect importance of maintaining coastal and flood defences those. not just in his constituency but throughout the whole of I should like to trot through five specific areas that I the UK. I cannot give him the assurance that he is think that the coalition needs to focus on if we are to looking for, but I am certain that he and other hon. improve the lives of those who live and work in and visit Members on both sides of the House will lobby vociferously our coastal communities. First, on economic diversification, to ensure that coastal defences are maintained. There is we need to find ways of putting the economic heart a big question about the efficiency and effectiveness of back in our coastal towns. Only a few years ago, coastal the Environment Agency, which sometimes hinders local towns were not only people’s holiday location of choice, schemes and solutions to such problems, and that needs but the gateway to the empire, with goods leaving and to be looked at carefully. coming into the country from many ports; but far too In the short time since the coalition came to power, it often, that economic dynamism has gone. Too many of has had a positive impact. Some of the policies that our coastal towns are now magnets for the long-term have been put in place and changes that have already unemployed, those on benefits and people with long-term been made will have a positive impact on coastal towns. medical conditions. More must be done to diversify the For example, reducing the threshold for national insurance economic base of our coastal towns. contributions and, as outlined in the Budget, reducing Understanding the macro-economic constraints, we corporation tax, particularly for small companies, will need to put in place medium to long-term strategies to have a particular resonance in many coastal towns, and encourage business to locate and create employment in the promised help for Britain’s tourism industry through our coastal towns, creating economic diversification. reinstating favourable tax rules for furnished holiday An obvious example of that would be the establishment lettings will avoid a significant detrimental impact. of green technology companies, particularly those connected Most significant of all are the coalition’s proposals to to green energy generation. My hon. Friend the Member scrap regional strategies and regional development agencies for Waveney (Peter Aldous) is particularly passionate and to devolve decision making and power to local about that work in his constituency. authority level, thereby allowing decisions to be made The second area is funding formulae, which were the at that level—in effect, returning decision making and subject of significant debate in the previous Parliament. power to coastal local authorities rather than distant The independent National Audit Office should be tasked 27WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 28WH
[Mark Simmonds] people to coastal towns; and support for the elderly, who are attracted to retiring to the coast. Too often with examining the funding formulae to ensure that under the previous Government coastal towns were coastal towns and regions receive their fair share, albeit ignored and marginalised, despite one or two Labour perhaps it will diminish, of resources for public services. Members fighting to change that perception. I hope The formulae should reflect the visitor numbers to that the coalition will not make the same mistake. particular areas. I found the starkest example of that Coastal towns have a significant contribution to make. problem in Blackpool, where the vast majority of some They need to be reinvigorated and focused on by central 18,000 people a year who visit its walk-in health centre and local government. do not come from that town, yet Blackpool primary care trust, which is responsible for the centre, currently receives no extra money. There are similar problems in 11.17 am Skegness and elsewhere. There is a double whammy in Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I commend funding for coastal towns because of the elderly and my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness vulnerable population and the large number of visitors. (Mark Simmonds) on securing this important debate. Thirdly, there are high levels of benefit dependency in I shall focus primarily on inter-departmental working, coastal towns—significantly higher than in other areas. which my hon. Friend mentioned, because it is so The Government are planning some innovative work on important that we have joined-up thinking on coastal benefit culture that will incentivise people to come off towns. If hon. Members will indulge me, I will deal with benefits and get back into work, and ensure that work this matter mainly with reference to my constituency of pays and that people are not better off on benefits. The Great Yarmouth, as others can speak for their own. Government may like to consider piloting some of Great Yarmouth highlights exactly why coastal towns these schemes in our coastal towns. are so important, how diverse they are and why it is Fourthly, many coastal towns are blighted by poor-quality vital to tie together essential improvements in housing stock and many have high levels of houses in infrastructure—both transport and communications—and multiple occupation. Local authorities must retain the recognition of the tourism industry and the niche industries flexibility to deal with HMOs and prevent their development that some of our constituencies deal with. Companies in localities where they are not wanted or where there is in my constituency supply the defence industry and already over-supply. have dealings with the oil and gas industries. Obviously, Fifthly, many coastal towns’ public services are being so close to what was the largest offshore wind overstretched as a result of their demographics, limited farm in Europe, some of them are involved with renewable catchment areas and poor transport infrastructure. If I energy, with new wind farms to come. My constituency could ask the coalition to focus on one area, it would be also suffers from coastal erosion, as do other hon. improving public health in coastal towns, where there Members’ constituencies. are higher rates of alcohol abuse, smoking and teenage To see real economic growth we need improvements pregnancy. There are 74.8 conceptions per 1,000 girls in transport infrastructure—both road and rail—and in between 15 and 17 in Blackpool, compared with the broadband, so that companies looking to take advantage national average of 42.6. I accept that that is an historical of niche industries can communicate. Broadband is an statistic, but it still makes the point. important tool. I urge the Government to work alongside not just the As has already been mentioned, tourism is often traditional local authorities with responsibility for health, undervalued, yet it is one of the most cost-effective but the broader charitable and voluntary sector, which industries, through which employment can be increased has a significant role to play. I am sure that all hon. in constituencies such as Great Yarmouth. More than Members agree that in all coastal towns there is a 5,000 people in Great Yarmouth are employed in the significant sense of community and people who want to tourism industry, which is worth about £500 million to make a difference. There is a direct correlation between the economy. Given that my constituency is the second poor public health and high rates of people on incapacity largest seaside resort in the country, we feel that we play benefit further down the line. our part in the economy. We cover the whole remit: I should like the Minister to make a commitment. from straight tourism and seaside tourism, to the Norfolk The previous Government set up a cross-departmental broads and stately homes—something we share with working group to pull Departments together on all the my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous). various aspects of that issue. I want to ensure that that We also cover bingo and gambling, including horse working group continues and that it will focus particularly racing and dog track racing. on coastal towns. Although that might sound administrative We have offshore oil and gas, and there are renewables and bureaucratic, there is no doubt that cross-departmental to come, but we suffer, as I said, from a huge amount of working can lead to achievements. Perhaps the best coastal erosion. A clear, transparent policy on coastal example of that is the Office of Life Sciences, which has erosion is needed. None of us here and none of the made a significant contribution to promoting the interests residents in our constituencies genuinely believe that we of the British pharmaceutical sector. can protect every inch of coastline: neither the economy Many other hon. Members wish to speak, so I will nor nature allows for that. There is certainly a need for draw my remarks to a close. There are many significant transparency and clarity about what we can do, and a issues relating to coastal towns that I have not had time need to ensure that the money the Department for to mention, including communities running facilities; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and other raising educational aspiration and achievement; the Departments can put into dealing with coastal erosion performance of the Environment Agency and flood is spent on protecting the coastline. A rough estimate is defences; the importance of the public realm in attracting that during the past four or five years, the previous 29WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 30WH
Government’s pathfinder and other schemes spent almost During the past 13 years, despite many years of a £500,000 on reports on Great Yarmouth, which often booming economy, Thanet has not benefited led to other reports with not a single bit of work being proportionately to the rest of the south-east. In some done to protect the coastline. areas, deprivation has significantly increased. With the Scratby, which my hon. Friend the Member for Boston difficulties that we face, we cannot build on, or support and Skegness has seen, is a key area that needs work to ourselves through, the previous economic successes of protect its coastline. Most of the necessary coastal the past 10 years. The economic profile inland is totally erosion protection could have been finished with the and radically different, which I know is the same for money that went into more and more reports. The many of my colleagues with seaside constituencies. previous Government spent £200,000 in areas such as Canterbury has a significantly different economic Great Yarmouth just before the election, coincidentally—I and social make-up from Thanet, Dover or Hastings am sure that it was not intended to be an election tool. and Rye. At the same time, they were penalising such areas—Great During the past 13 years the previous Government Yarmouth has a new deep water outer-harbour that can pumped millions of pounds into my area. That was service our country—with a port tax. We must get away well-intentioned, but the result was an increase in from that mixed-up thinking. We must send a clear deprivation. There were top-down assessments of what message and be honest about what we can do to protect was needed, little or no involvement of the community, out coastline from erosion. and outreach workers who had no knowledge of the I will not speak for long because I know that other area; and an increasing number of projects focused on hon. Members wish to contribute. I have highlighted deprivation attracted more deprivation to our area. why cross-departmental work is so important. The Department for Communities and Local Government Bill Esterson: As a man of Kent, I am familiar with is important in allowing local authorities to look after Thanet and the problems in Ramsgate that the hon. residents by removing the regional spatial strategy, and Lady described well. I understand her point, but cutting by allowing council tax and business rates sometimes to money is not the way to deal with the problem. Other move back to local authorities to allow those authorities hon. Members have called for cross-departmental to move forward. The Department for Culture, Media co-operation, but pulling the plug disproportionately—that and Sport covers tourism and gambling, which are is what is on the table at the moment—will not solve the important for areas such as Great Yarmouth. DEFRA problem. I agree that money could be better spent and is important in dealing with coastal erosion, as is the that lessons could be learned from the past, but I hope Department for Transport for transport links, and DCMS the hon. Lady agrees that we need continued investment, for broadband. The Department of Health is also important not cuts at a time when the private sector— in the context of the cost to our health service and our economy as a whole of the levels of alcohol consumption Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. I must often associated with visitors to such constituencies. cut the hon. Gentleman off. All those Departments have a vital part to play in constituencies such as Great Yarmouth and coastal Laura Sandys: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s constituencies throughout the country.The most important point, but in many ways the money that was invested in request that I can make to the Minister today is for our area was an incentive for deprivation, not aspiration. cross-departmental work at official and ministerial level We need a different approach. to ensure that our coastal towns, which can provide so much in moving our economy forward, developing new Mr Graham Stuart: Another aspect of the previous renewable energy industries and developing our tourism Government’s endless expenditure of money with little industry even further, can work together to achieve that delivery for coastal towns was regeneration partnerships, growth for our own communities and the wider country. which lasted for a short period and then came to an end. There was never any follow-through. Coastal towns 11.22 am need a consistent policy framework and consistent work to develop their economic potential. What they do not Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I thank my hon. need is short-run, small projects that capture a headline, Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark or eye-catching initiatives that do not deliver on the Simmonds) for introducing this subject and for being a ground. That is what happened too often. strong champion of coastal towns and the issues and challenges facing them. As many hon. Members have said, coastal towns have different and unique characteristics, Laura Sandys: I absolutely agree. We had many short- and it is important to examine and address them in term projects. My area of Kent ended up as a centre of policy terms. South Thanet is one of the most beautiful excellence for deprivation, which was a result of money parts of the country—I am sure that other hon. Members being deployed from the centre with little community will claim that for their constituencies—but it is the involvement. I am talking not about less funding but 64th poorest district in the country, which is not exactly funding that incentivises new businesses and builds a the usual profile of the south-east. We have the highest stronger economy, with a sense of future and aspiration. number of looked-after children in the south-east. Two We have become a magnet for vulnerable people. I wards have more than 80% of privately rented properties was talking to a young couple who had been sent to and most tenants are housing benefit recipients, and Thanet from Rochester to ensure that they received all 39% of our economy is in the public sector. Some the services they needed, having kicked their drug habit. 15% of the private sector probably supports that public They looked to Thanet to provide them with rehabilitation sector investment. That is a precarious economic model and services such as mental health support. Many parts looking into the future. of the south-east, such as London and Kent, use some 31WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 32WH
[Laura Sandys] Mr Graham Stuart: May I chide my hon. Friend a little? One of the great—and rarely remarked on—legacies of our seaside towns to receive people with such issues. of the last Labour Government was that they built so It is important to address those issues, but they should few houses. There was a tremendous increase in housing be addressed by the local authority in question. We need and vast increases in council waiting lists. I would cannot be a centre of rehabilitation services for the hate to see councils remove the one possibility for whole of the south-east. people to have a home and roof over their head because My message is clear and important. Our NHS trust of the popularity of the local area. That is a result of and our GPs are there to support our own community. the failure of the last Government and we must address We are there to support others when we can, but we the issue at its root. We must not ruin things before we must not have incentives or investment that further do that. attract people, when we have ever-less capacity to ensure that we can support them into the economy with the Laura Sandys: My concern is specifically with housing necessary jobs. stock. My constituency has enough housing, but it is in an incredibly bad state and there are a lot of empty We also have a problem with looked-after children properties that need to be brought back into the housing from out of the area that has not been addressed in the stock. One would not want to keep a dog in some of the past 13 years. Charities have been clear about the impact flats I have been into. The neglect and lack of responsibility on those children, who come from as far away as that some—not all—landlords have shown towards their Birmingham, Hounslow and Richmond, which may be tenants is not acceptable. More houses need to be built, two and a half to three hours away from where they are but I would like to see a lot of empty houses brought located, in Margate, Ramsgate or Broadstairs. That is back into the housing stock in a safe and adequate not good for children and it is not right for them to be condition. brought up in such places, away from their extended families. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Under- On the upside, there are great opportunities. As my Secretary of State for Education has made a clear hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness has commitment that he will enforce the guidance that discussed during this debate and at many conferences, looked-after children should not, except in extreme tourism is one of the most effective ways of stimulating circumstances, be located more than 20 miles from their small businesses and ensuring a greater number of original local authority. start-ups, and not just specifically tourist-sector businesses. Tourism brings in foreign currency, spurs new businesses I am pleased that we are looking at the issue of in associated companies and supports our high streets. housing benefit, because in my area, if someone owns a It offers our less-skilled work force more jobs. Therefore, house in multiple occupation, they can receive a return we must ensure that the domestic tourism agenda and of between 11% and 14% on their investment due to the the small business sector are seen as important drivers low property prices. An equivalent HMO in Westminster—I of the recovery that we badly need in our coastal towns. do not know how many there are—would make a return I am delighted that following a parliamentary question, of between 5% and 7%. We cannot have a system where the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation the returns in coastal towns are so high that those and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford places become a magnet for HMOs and landlords who and Stortford (Mr Prisk)—he was in the Chamber are attracted to the cheap property prices. recently—has agreed to meet a delegation of MPs and I will add a word of caution. If housing benefit is to to focus on how we can boost the tourism sector. We be universally reduced, we must take care to ensure that need a clear set of policies to accommodate the seaside towns with their low property prices and cheaper vulnerabilities of our seaside towns. I believe that living costs do not once again become a magnet for the coalition Government will put those policies in those on benefits who come from outside the area. place and ensure that that we are not left, yet again, at the end of the line. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I am from Redcar, and on Thursday there is a planning hearing about having Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Before I call the HMOs—which will involve secure accommodation for next speaker, if we are to fit in everybody who wishes to people on bail, remand and so on—in the heart of our speak, contributions need not be longer than five minutes— resort. There will be massive financial returns for the perhaps less. people involved, but my concern is about the planning and the fact that even though local residents and the 11.35 am local authority would prefer not to have those hostels built in that place, they have little power to do anything Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): about it because of the planning laws put in place by the It is a pleasure to sit under your chairmanship, Mr Chope, previous Government. and having heard your instruction, I shall be very brief indeed. Laura Sandys: The Minister for Housing recently Rather than list all the possible ills of public health announced that we are to give local authorities the and social deprivation found in my constituency, I shall opportunity for targeted selective licensing. I will urge focus on two topics—both thematic—in what I hope my council—as I am sure other hon. Members will urge will be the first of my many contributions on this theirs—to ensure that HMOs undergo a severe and subject. I shall make a comparison between the coastal rigorous licensing process so that we start to create towns represented by hon. Members in the Chamber a deterrent, and so that seaside towns do not become a today and the experience in the rust belt of America—those dumping ground for many different social problems. aging industrial towns in the mid-west that, after their 33WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 34WH primary industries declined sharply in the middle of the Reading the Sunday papers, my heart sank when I century, had to go through a reinvention, a renaissance, read the comments of Janet Street-Porter, a lady for almost a renovation. whom I generally have a lot of time. She is a very well qualified architect—not many people know that—and A report was produced by the Brookings Institution, her views on 20th-century architecture in particular are which is a centre-left think-tank. I do not always read fascinating and spot-on. However, when she heard that centre-left think-tank publications, but on this occasion Blackpool was to apply for world heritage status, a bit I thought it was worthwhile. The report, “Restoring of metropolitan sophistication seemed to come across prosperity”, it is worth reading in full. When I read it, I her and her eyebrows raised somewhat. She described it see my constituency and, I suspect, those of other hon. as “bonkers”. She stigmatised the town yet again and Members. That report states: said that when she next visited, she would bring a “Suffice it to say that each forgotten city has been accused of picnic. I shall say one thing to her: when she does bring being the regional or even national ‘capital’ of one social ill or her picnic up to Blackpool, could she please get in another. Such stories have a profound and harmful impact on the touch with me? I would happily take her round Blackpool city’s collective mindset because they shape how local people see and show her many nice places where she can have a themselves. According to…a professor of American Studies at picnic, many nice places where she can eat, and many Youngstown State University, residents of highly stigmatised cities have ‘come to expect failure.’ This is a vicious cycle because nice places—including one in the constituency of the as individual and collective expectations about the city consistently hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), which diminish, citizens become less hopeful and less likely to engage in has the nicest bed and breakfast in the country, in my civic affairs, thus decreasing civic capacity and governing capacity. view—where she can happily stay. They are also less likely to demand adequate city services and less All Members of Parliament, when we talk about our likely to question other forms of dysfunction. Many people lose seaside towns in this Chamber, need to focus not just on the recognition that things can change, that they could effect change—even those who work in local government”. the negative things where we come top—I am talking about bad social consequences, social ills, deprivation That is a bleak portrait of the situation in which we find and so on—but on the good things that happen. That is ourselves, but I recognise elements of that description why it is good that in a debate on coastal towns, I can in my town of Blackpool. I do not say that with any talk about the great opportunities that Blackpool will pleasure. have in the next year in the premiership. Let us focus on the good things that happen in our seaside towns, not For many years, people in Blackpool have suffered just on the negatives. I hope what when we next debate blow after blow after blow, not least the decision on the seaside towns, I can report back on Janet Street-Porter’s casino, which seemed to symbolise the fact that the visit. Given that I have a few minutes less than I had Government had turned their backs on the town. I hoped for, I shall leave it there. returned from Wembley a few weeks ago on a chartered train that the football club had hired for us. It was a six-hour trip with no air conditioning; the carriage was 11.42 am boiling hot, but full of happy people who, for the first Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the time in a good few years, were displaying what I would hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) call civic pride. Their team had got into the premiership on starting this important debate. One of the more and at last something good had happened to their town. useful things that I did in the previous Parliament was That had not happened because of something that the persuade the unwilling Chairman of the Select Committee state, the Government or the council had done. It was on Communities and Local Government to do a report part of something that the community had done and on coastal towns. I guess we could describe it as a because of a football club that enjoyed terrific community relatively seminal report in so far as it provoked a support. There were more people going to Wembley number of other measures. We discovered, as hon. than could be crammed into the Bloomfield road stadium. Members have already exhibited, that not all seaside People attended from across the Fylde coast. towns are the same, but there is a family of problems that most of them appear to have. In the two minutes I have left, I shall not focus on what the Government could or should do, although I One of the problems is transport. Most of the towns welcome having a dedicated Minister responsible for evolved in the age of the train; often, they have now lost tourism, as well as the fact that the threat to furnished the train and badly need a road now. There is a lack holiday lets has been diminished and the way in which of quality employment, or a lack of the right mix of public health is to be promoted through the council and employment, and in many seaside towns wage levels are social care functions are to be brought together through surprisingly low. There are the housing problems to changes to the PCT and the council. Although the which hon. Members have alluded, particularly in report by Professor Fothergill, to which my hon. Friend connection with HMOs. The hon. Member for South the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) Thanet (Laura Sandys) might be aware that housing referred and which highlighted the importance of legislation on HMOs has been tightened up quite recently, employment in seaside tourism, was a very important but councils often lack the resources to administer and statistical document, it was not a toolbox, which is what police such measures. There are issues that I think will we now need. We need a range of policies from which affect the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member local communities can choose what is best for themselves. for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) with We perhaps need less central Government prescription regard to licensing, nightlife and precisely what that and less stigmatisation. It is important to have these does to a resort’s family environment. debates, but each time that we have one, it almost In many resorts, there is clearly a severe demographic underlines the fact that coastal towns are seen as a imbalance. I remember that one of the more disturbing problem. I almost start to tear my hair out at that. aspects of our Select Committee inquiry was the discussions 35WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 36WH
[Dr John Pugh] Boston and Skegness referred to, showed that in many places there is considerable scope for regeneration and that we had with youngsters, some of whom I think genuine economic progress. lived in Kent. They were talking about leaving their There are genuine concerns as well, though. One of resort and took that as axiomatic—when they got the big problems for coastal towns, emphasised in the employment in the future, they would not work locally. Conservative paper, “No longer the end of the line”, is Of course, there is also the problem of coastal erosion, transport. That is a big issue for many places—Southport, although coastal erosion is a mixed bag. The hon. Hastings and all sorts of places. Looking at what is Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), who spoke happening to the national budget at the moment, very recently about the loss of his coast, might be aware that few of us can be optimistic that the bypass that was almost on the same night that the material was lost always going to be built will appear soon. Also, there is from his coast, it appeared on mine. If any hon. Members the loss of the regional development agencies and the are short of a bit of beach, please come to Southport construction of the embryonic local enterprise partnerships. and we might be able to help you out. Those may be dominated by urban interests, and funding that might be regarded as coming our way might go We found that lacking in many seaside resorts—this elsewhere. I would welcome the Minister’s view on what was a general conclusion—was a clear vision of where will happen with the Sea Change money. they were going and the political will to deliver on that. People ought not to underestimate the difficulties of Before the election, all parties promised much. The managing change in seaside resorts with a largely elderly Conservative pamphlet, “No longer the end of the population. However, in the inquiry we did find many line”, promised lottery funding for private piers. I think instances of genuine success and successful regeneration. that we have to recognise that that probably will not I remember visiting Whitstable, where the regeneration happen, but the Conservatives did emphasise a new seemed to be almost entirely based on fish, but as it is approach to local transport, which I think in constrained extraordinarily tasty and the restaurants are good, that times we might want to consider. They also promised, seemed to be a very successful model. As I am sure or talked about, business rate discounts, which are many hon. Members know, Southport has become a certainly worthy of investigation. classic resort. Other resorts were not quite certain of The key test will be how the Government manage the the direction in which they were going—an example reduced funds and, in particular, what happens to the of that was Margate: one lobby in the town wanted the Sea Change money. Those of us in a seaside community, old seaside environment to be recovered and restored, if I can describe us in those terms, do not want to go whereas another looked towards cultural developments back to square one, but at the moment it is not particularly associated with the artist Turner and more highbrow clear what the next steps will be. The debate initiated appeal. today by the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness has done an enormously good job in focusing the Government Complementary to the report, and something that on the fact that there needs to be a plan for the next made an important difference to people’s thinking, was steps. We need a degree of strategic thinking. That the BBC programme “Coast”. It started as an Open has gradually evolved and, in the future, it needs to be university, rather anoraky sort of thing, but it ended up built on. being phenomenally successful and opened the eyes of many people to what the English coast offers. Despite what we have heard today, the upshot all that 11.49 am activity was relatively positive. The Government, having Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): first ignored the Select Committee report, came back a It is a pleasure to take part in the debate. I congratulate second time when asked to do so by a persistent Chairman my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness and put some money on the table. I am referring to the (Mark Simmonds) on doing so much to highlight the Sea Change money, which I think amounted to a pot of needs and interests of coastal towns by producing the £60 million. There was much activity in and around this report “No Longer the End of the Line” and through place; there were many conferences; the relevant all-party his efforts today. Not only is he handsome and groups sprang to life and there was much talk about the charismatic—he particularly liked that phrase when I regeneration of the seaside. Then, come the election, asked him what I could say about him—but he has there was even more activity. A lot of political attention made a fine speech and he does a fine job on behalf of is always paid to coastal towns, because for some peculiar coastal towns. reason, they end up being political battlegrounds. In Rather like my rugged friend, coastal towns sometimes fact, quite a few coastal towns—happily not my own— fail to recognise all their qualities, but they are in fact changed hands at the last election; I am thinking of tremendous, positive centres. To pick up on the point Eastbourne, Hastings and others. Post-election, however, raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool surely we have everything to gain by acting collectively North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), we really need to over the next five years, because—strangely enough, in celebrate coastal towns and what they do. As my hon. these dark and recession-ridden times—there is a great Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness said, they deal of hope around. employ many people and they are great centres. Although We are experiencing a genuine increase in inbound there are issues about houses in multiple occupation tourism in this country. It is a no-brainer for the Treasury and other aspects of housing, coastal towns often provide that if it encourages inbound tourism, that is a win—a relatively low-cost housing, and they have acted as plausible win—in terms of the balance of payments havens that people can live in and enjoy, albeit that that and taxation. That is not a vain hope, because the was the result of the previous Government’s failure to Sheffield Hallam study, which the hon. Member for build houses elsewhere. 37WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 38WH
Overall, coastal towns are tremendous places to live, Why did the previous Government pick on family and the people who live in them love them. Sometimes amusement arcades and boost hard gambling centres in they get a bit down, because coastal towns can be a bit betting shops? inward looking; they can slag themselves off and see Mr Clark says that owner-operators are an integral themselves as not being tremendously interesting or part of the local community and economy. As small dynamic, and young people often look to leave. However, business owners, however, they are hit disproportionately it is easy for people in coastal towns to underestimate by the weight of regulation. He says: the strength of what is on offer and their economic “The new regulation and bureaucracy is forcing owner-operators future, and I agree with what other hon. Members have out of business. I pay approximately £70,000 in regulatory fees said in that respect. alone.” Given the state of the public finances that we have That is because of the quango that regulates this area. inherited from the previous Government, it will fall The coalition promised to do something. Mr Clark more than ever to local people—town councillors, county says: councillors and entrepreneurs—to step up to the mark. “David Cameron said before the election that he supported the The Government are constrained in what they can do to reintroduction of the £2 stake machine. We are asking for the promote coastal towns, and they need, most importantly, government to deliver their promise. If they got their finger out to get out of the way of entrepreneurs who want to Seaside arcade operators could benefit this summer.” make money and to build businesses, profits and There are so many issues on which we need long-term employment. The incoming coalition Government have thinking and vision. However, on this issue, which is therefore done a number of things significantly to boost absolutely at the heart of the business community, coastal towns, as has been said. employment and what is on offer in coastal towns, I want, however, to focus on an essential component which depend on tourism, the Minister could do something of a successful seaside town economy—the amusement soon, and I ask him to do so. arcade. Colleagues smile, which I am sure is partly Several hon. Members rose— because they have enjoyed time in amusement arcades and because of the quintessential nature of such places. Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair): Order. We have However, arcades are an important part of what is on now completed the list of speakers who gave notice to offer in coastal towns; they provide a focus, and many Mr Speaker in advance. We have about 15 minutes, and retailers around them rely on the footfall that they bring about six Members are still seeking to catch my eye. with them. Typically, arcades are small family businesses, and 11.56 pm many have been operating for generations. The traditional amusement arcade machine sector is extremely fragile, Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I and there has been a tremendous loss of jobs over will try to be brief and not to repeat what other hon. recent years. The sector has experienced an average Members have said. I congratulate the hon. Member for 21% reduction in revenues since 1 September 2007, and Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) because a lot of that dates back to the Gambling Act 2005, he hit the nail on the head in terms of my responsibilities although, to a small extent, it also reflects the impact of in the town of Fleetwood. However, I should add that, the smoking ban and the downturn. Every week brings although a recent study somehow missed Fleetwood off further business closures and redundancies, damaging and instead included it in something called Greater local economies, communities and tourism. The British Blackpool, anyone who has ever been to Fleetwood will Amusement Catering Trades Association estimates that know that Mr and Mrs Fleetwood do not regard Blackpool at least 216 arcades have been lost, representing 1,350 jobs. as either greater or a part of them. That, however, goes to the core of the issue. Recent arcade machine manufacturing figures give an indication of the future for arcades. If arcades do Fleetwood is a 19th century town. It was once at the not invest in new machines and do not replenish and end of the west coast main line, and we actually have a renew their offer, they will be less attractive, so the North Euston hotel. The main line train from London manufacturing sector acts as a real indicator of their used to come to Fleetwood to take the fish back to future business. Recent manufacturing figures indicate Billingsgate. The fishing industry was knocked out in that annual machine production—that production takes the ’60s and ’70s. Since then, the town has somehow lost place in this country and is an important employer—has its heart. Today, what is left of the fishing industry—the fallen from 55,000 machines a year to 12,000. Two inshore boats that face problems in other hon. Members’ associated companies have been forced into liquidation constituencies, too—faces the consequences of the difficult this week, so we need action, and we need it soon. balance that the Government will have to strike in terms of renewable energy. The fishing boats of Fleetwood William Clark, a constituent, was born in a flat above are being laid up as a result of an increase in the number the Withernsea amusement arcade that his father opened of wind farms on their territory. There is also a lack of 50 years ago, and he now runs 28 arcades in Yorkshire. any statutory compensation, and I find it incredible in He told me: this day and age that, even though fishermen are usually “We had 500 employees 3 years ago. Now we are down to 220. a one-man business, they have to negotiate compensation Three to four years ago I spent £1.4 million on new equipment. Last year it was £100,000…The cause of this was the provisions themselves when wind farms go up on their fishing of the Gambling Act”— grounds. I hope that that will be addressed nationally, which was brought in so thoughtlessly by the previous and I know that other hon. Members feel the same way. Government— My hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness “preventing amusement arcades from having £2 stake machines. (Mark Simmonds) raised other issues. There is real If the intention of this was to ban these machines, why are they potential in coastal towns. For example, Fisherman’s still allowed in bookmakers, a far harder gambling environment?” Friend is an internationally recognised company in 39WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 40WH
[Eric Ollerenshaw] The pleas from the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness and others for a continued joined-up approach across Fleetwood that exports to more than 100 countries. We Departments is evidence that that Government took also have a fish processing industry. Believe it or not, seaside towns seriously. In 2010, whatever the problems great articulated lorries come to Fleetwood from Hull, of seaside and coastal towns—they remain great—they Brixham and all around the country night after night are nothing compared with those of 1997. The previous because of the skills of certain processing families, Government at least began to try to come to terms with whose products are then transported out of Fleetwood the changes to the economy, which happened in a slow to major hotels and restaurants. Those companies could process over two or three decades. Those changes were expand and they say that they could take on more work. not like a factory closure, in which thousands of people Do hon. Members realise that we export 50 tonnes of are made unemployed; they took the form of the gradual whelks to Korea every year? Apparently, whelks are an decline—in some cases the death—of seaside towns. aphrodisiac in Korea, and I would ask hon. Members to try them. [Interruption.] My experience of whelks is not too happy, I must say. [MR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Were you successful? In my constituency millions of pounds of public money went into Whitley Bay and elsewhere, and, Eric Ollerenshaw: There was certainly a lack of success. importantly, that levered in a large amount of private I disagree to some extent with my hon. Friend the investment. However, when the local administration Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), who changed in 2009 it looked exclusively to private investment, talked about freeing up businesses and deregulation. All with the result that the regeneration stalled. I look of that will help, but even though our businesses can forward, in a local and central Government context, not take on new people, we do not have the transport just to words that people will say about seaside towns, system. A railway line still exists, but there is no railway but to resources being committed to them. service on it. We have one major road—the A585—which We know the fate of regional development agencies, is not dualled. We have actually got a tram and we are but I want to say something about their importance to the end of the tram line from Blackpool, but the tram is seaside towns, or at least my constituency. There would not working at the moment because it is being upgraded not have been a new shopping centre in the centre of to a supertram. The supertram may help with some Whitley Bay without the important input of the RDA. aspects of tourism in the town, but there are inevitably The renewal of the west quay on the Fish quay in North delays to major projects and the repeated delays to the Shields would not have happened without resources scheme—I hope that the Minister will take a look at and encouragement from the RDA. Also, the regeneration it—have led to businesses closing down. They cannot of the Spanish City site, which needs to be completed, wait that long. involved a significant amount of public money, which What we need is, I think, the same for many coastal was brought in through the RDA, which understood its towns. The projects in question are not big infrastructure importance. deals such as high-speed rail. Small investment is needed, It is in that context that we need to pay attention to but that small investment could in some towns—particularly, the infrastructure. It is true that much of the infrastructure as the hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) said, of seaside towns is Victorian and Edwardian, but it is when it is for transport—bring extra jobs and release beyond the wit of private investors to come into my potential. constituency and deal with, for example, the sea front, which stretches for two and a half to three miles. It 12 noon would serve no profitable purpose for the private sector Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): I congratulate to come and do anything with it. That is why the public the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark sector has a role to play. I just cannot agree with the Simmonds) on securing an important debate so early in hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) the new Parliament. I have represented a coastal seat in that the best thing that government can do is get out of the north-east since 1997 and I am pleased to find what the way. genuine understanding new Members have. Let me As to tourism, which is important, one of the first warn them, however, that their predecessors also understood things that One NorthEast has done, regrettably but in the problems of seaside towns, but without action to many ways understandably, is to cut millions of pounds satisfy the huge demands of local residents and visitors from the budget. That includes some of the sub-regional there is a price that may be paid. and regional tourism money. I hope that that money If I understood the hon. Member for Blackpool finds its way to local authorities, because it is important North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) properly, he was that we advertise a delightful constituency to visit and talking about some specific policies for seaside towns stay in. If anyone is coming to the north-east and wants that might be implemented locally, as opposed to the to go to Hadrian’s wall, or do the castles visit and go to more generic issues such as housing and health that we the Metro centre to shop—all things that I recommend—we tend to discuss. I agree with him very much. I also agree want them to stay at the coast. We have to be part of the with the hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) that the offer that is made. Unfortunately for local authorities, first thing that seaside towns need to decide is what they one of the first things that happens is that the tourism are for. That is an important first step. budget gets squeezed, because all sorts of other things I wanted to make some brief remarks in the debate so appear to be more important. In my view, the public that I could add a certain balance to some of the sector needs to do what it can do, such as attending to comments that have been made. As far as I am aware infrastructure—in Whitley Bay we have schools that are the previous Government did not sideline seaside towns. among the best in the country, which I must mention to 41WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 42WH counter what has been said about educational provision made the point that in Blackpool, 18,000 people go to in some seaside towns—and the private sector must be the health care centre, but there is no additional funding. encouraged to do what it can. I commend the excellent The population of Newquay goes from 20,000 in the small businesses along Park View in Whitley Bay, which winter months to 120,000 in summer, but there is no have got on with things—in partnership with the local extra resourcing for policing. That gives rise to a question authority, and, indeed, in wider partnerships. about how we sustain proper local services in periods of I want to ask the Minister about two things. First, the additional population pressure. Conservatives said in opposition—and I presume that what they said has been translated into the coalition 12.9 pm document—that they believed that community asset transfer was an important part of regeneration, in Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): I particular for seaside towns. I think that it was part of congratulate the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness their seaside town policy. Is that still Government policy? (Mark Simmonds) most warmly on securing this debate What will happen, for example, if a local authority is on a subject in which, as a seaside Member, he has a reluctant to go down that route? Will central Government long-standing interest. Although he was too modest to give it a push in one way or another? I commend the acknowledge it, he was the author or instigator of “No fantastic work that Culture Quarter is trying to do in longer the end of the line”, which was mentioned earlier. Whitley Bay; but it is very frustrated sometimes by lack I declare several interests. Apart from speaking for of support from the local authority. the Opposition on the subject, I have a long-standing Finally, does the Minister agree with the hon. Member interest in coastal towns; I was carted off to Blackpool for Boston and Skegness about the importance of the at an early age and saw some of the amusement arcades, environment? The hon. Gentleman took a view about about which some have waxed eloquently. When I was green and wind farm technology along the north bank first elected to the House in 1997, I saw the need on the of the Tyne, which could create thousands of jobs; Labour Benches to establish a Back-Bench group of would the Minister prefer that to the old industries such seaside and coastal MPs. Lastly, I had the pleasure as, for example, dismantling ships, which have a huge recently, as the honorary president of the British Resorts environmental impact, and in the case in question are and Destinations Association, of visiting the constituency only a few miles from seaside villages and towns that we of the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness, when the hope are in for a very good summer? association held its annual conference at Butlins. I was delighted to see that Butlins is as thriving as it was when Several hon. Members rose— I first went there 40 years ago. Mr David Amess (in the Chair): Order. It is very Coastal towns face a broad range of challenges. I call unfortunate that six colleagues still wish to speak but them challenges because that is what they are; it is not a there is not enough time for them all to do so; I negative term, nor is it necessarily positive, but it understand that they have made the effort to be here. encapsulates some of the points touched on by the hon. We have only three minutes before the winding-up Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul speeches, and I am told that we have not heard from the Maynard). We know the challenges. In defence of everything south-west, so I shall call the hon. Member for St Austell done by the Labour Government, I have to say that and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert). If other hon. Members when my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth are minded to intervene on the Minister, perhaps he will (Mr Campbell) and I and many others who represent allow it. seaside and coastal towns were first elected in 1997, it was after a long period of neglect by our predecessors 12.7 pm of the particular problems of seaside and coastal towns. Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): It is We felt—it is clear from everything that has been said a pleasure to take part in the debate and I congratulate today that new Members feel the same—that a strong my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness and specific light should be shone on the whole question (Mark Simmonds) on securing it. I shall be very quick, and on the particular problems of seaside and coastal as time is pressing. towns. There are two issues that I hope the Minister will A light has been shone in recent years on rural areas, address affecting people in Newquay, which is part of on coalfield areas and on inner-city areas. It needs also the new constituency that I am so proud to represent. to be shone on seaside and coastal towns, not least The first is licensing policy. It seems that, as our seaside because of what I would describe as the pepper-pot towns have changed from family destinations to places deprivation that they suffer. It is really important that where younger people go to enjoy themselves perhaps a the matter is considered by Ministers across Government. little too much on some weekends, the licensing regime As others have rightly said, it is not a challenge that can has not kept up with the speed at which businesses can be dealt with by only one Department; it has to be dealt open, shut and reopen, often flouting the decisions that with across Departments. That is why the points made local authorities make when they finally get round to by the hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) and intervening. In particular I am thinking of the requirement others about cross-departmental committees are so not to solicit objections to bars, nightclubs and, indeed, important. lap-dancing clubs. It is a bizarre incongruity that in the A difficult double message needs to be put across in planning context the local authority can seek people’s relation to seaside and coastal towns, and Members views, but in the licensing context it cannot. have touched on the dilemma. We need to discuss their Finally—I hope another hon. Member may have a specific problems—for example, deprivation in some minute or two in which to speak—I want to mention the the inner wards of my constituency and, indeed, that of issue of resourcing following footfall. My hon. Friend the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys), is 43WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 44WH
[Mr Gordon Marsden] None of those issues are party political; they have to be faced by civil servants, policy makers and Governments. as strong if not stronger than in some inner-city areas, The present Government need to do that, but they will but that is often masked by grant procedures and formulae not do it well if they start with cuts—a point made by because of the larger areas covered by the latter. The the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) Labour Government began to get to grips with the and touched on by the hon. Member for Boston and problem, but it was hell for civil servants. No doubt Skegness—especially if seaside and coastal towns get they gritted their teeth when dealing with the minutiae, double hits in the cuts compared with other areas. The but they got to grips with the procedures and formulae Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local by considering smaller areas such as sub-ward areas. Government, the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst That was crucial. (Robert Neill), was candid enough to admit that those The difficult double message is that although seaside with the greatest problems were now getting the greatest and coastal towns have specific problems, they are also hit in terms of the funding streams to seaside and worthwhile places. As the Fothergill report shows, they coastal towns. That is not something that seaside and have generated increases in tourism employment over coastal towns want to hear, nor should they. the past few years despite those problems. Those points I return to the general comments made today by need to be put across strongly, but it is also a question those on both sides of the Chamber. We heard some of seeing seaside and coastal towns in the round. I good and useful contributions and everyone focused on know from my experience of Blackpool that people too community involvement. However, that needs pump- often thought that not enough was being done for the priming; it needs things to be done. I have some wonderful residents, or that not enough being done for tourism community activities in my constituency. Donna’s Dream businesses. The truth of the matter is that if seaside and House is amazing; it was set up for terminally ill children coastal towns are to flourish, things need to be done for and is known countrywide. The Royal British Legion both; and what is done for residents and for tourists has its poppy song. However, it is a fallacy to say that must be integrated. After all, if residents do not feel such activities do not need pump-priming or some good about their town, what sort of welcome will they Government support. For example, if we do not have give the tourists, and how will the tourists feel about it? efficient, accurate and specific Government intervention There are big and important questions when it comes to on such things as HMOs—in March, the previous not having silos and working across Government. Government proposed good legislation on HMOs, which the present Government should consider—we will not If I have a critique of “No longer the end of the line”, get the results that are needed. If we are to have a big produced by the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness, society, voluntary and charitable organisations will need it is that the document is often too generic—or too a leg up in seaside and coastal towns, and not a pummelling Pavlovian—in some of the reactions to Government down from local government or the Treasury through intervention. When producing his report, the hon. funding cuts. Gentleman made a lengthy coastal tour, which was a good thing. In it, he speaks of Blackpool’s contribution There are new ideas for the Government to consider. to regeneration with the construction of the Spanish Some were put forward by the previous Government, steps, but where did that money come from? I can tell particularly those to do with Total Place. I would like the House that it came from the RDAs, the Sea Change the Government take up what was said about the funding programme and other Government initiatives. We should of seaside and coastal towns but also to consider the keep that in mind. specific points made this morning about Sea Change and the other measures needed to ensure that community A lot has been said about the so-called neglect of the cohesion in those places continues, and to improve on previous Government, although the hon. Member for what was done under the previous Government. Southport was good enough to acknowledge that the Sea Change programme was taken up by them. Indeed, 12.19 pm I was pleased to play a part in persuading my right hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): then Minister for Culture and Tourism, to put the It is good to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. programme in place. Members are right to pass the Thank you very much for inviting colleagues to intervene; question back to the Government, because in our “Strategy I very much appreciated that invitation. for seaside success” document, published in March I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and 2010, we specifically mentioned the importance of Skegness (Mark Simmonds) for bringing this subject to continuing Sea Change or something of that nature. It the Chamber. The fact that 10 Members have contributed has been an enormously important pump primer. to the debate and another six would have liked to is an It is said that the sun often shines in seaside towns, indication of its importance. My hon. Friend tried to and we did start to fix the roof in seaside towns while hide his light under a bushel, but failed because several the sun was shining. In our March 2010 report, we say hon. Members shook that bushel. He was, of course, that the Northwest Regional Development Agency had the author of “No longer the end of the line” and has invested more than £200 million in coastal towns, and been a vigorous exponent of his cause for a long while. I that the Heritage Lottery Fund had given £234 million thank him for that and for the eloquence of his contribution to 864 projects in English coastal resorts since 1997. today. I shall do my best to answer the questions put by Money came also from the working neighbourhood him and other hon. Members, but I will have to keep an fund and the new deal for communities. In that document, eye on the time and be mindful of possible interventions. we made a series of proposals, including new licensing As several hon. Members said, we should not talk rules, focusing on stronger co-operation, extending Sea down either the continuing appeal of our seaside towns Change and focusing on the new low-carbon economy. or their potential. Anecdotes were related during the 45WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy)20 JULY 2010 Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 46WH debate, but objective evidence was provided by Sheffield It would be a mistake for us to say, “Here is the guide Hallam university, with the support of the Department book that will apply equally to all the resorts in Britain.” of Communities and Local Government, which showed That is why we are inviting local authorities and business that coastal and seaside areas still have a very strong leaders to come together to form local enterprise appeal and great potential for the future. That report, partnerships to replace the existing regional development which was published last month, found that our seaside agencies. The Secretaries of State for the Departments tourist industry is alive and well and continuing to for Communities and Local Government and for Business, grow. I will not repeat the figures that were given in the Innovation and Skills have already written to local debate because we are running short of time. Let me councils and business leaders inviting them to come make it clear, though, that the coalition Government forward with proposals. I know that a number of coastal recognise that coastal and seaside towns face many real local authorities are already considering proposals that problems. They all have unique histories and often would take them into local enterprise partnerships. The differ widely in their economic, social and physical list with which I have been provided includes the Fylde situations and indeed in their history and reputation. coast in Lancashire, which may or may not include None the less, they face some common challenges, Fleetwood—incidentally, I will not be trying whelks any which include poor transport links, a dependence on time soon, given what has been said—Bournemouth, low-wage and low-skill jobs, high levels of benefit claimants, Poole and Dorset and Portsmouth, Southampton and low educational attainment—there is a mixed view on Hampshire. I am sure that others will be doing the that, but it is a serious problem in some places—and same. Those local enterprise partnerships will empower shared private rented housing. groups of councils and businesses working together to The Government believe that such challenges are best provide the strategic leadership that their areas need tackled through local solutions. In response to the hon. to set out local economic priorities. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), I am not talking about completely turning off the tap. The point Dr Pugh: As much as I subscribe to the doctrine of at issue here is who decides how the money is spent. localism, there is a degree of pump priming needed. After considering example after example, we are clear Most local authorities carry huge deadweight costs—if that local areas need to be free to determine their own I can put it like that—because of their social services future. They need to be freed from central Government budget, and have little financial freedom to carry out direction and regulation. Let me pick up on two points some of the big infrastructure projects that are very that were made in respect of that matter. The new much part and parcel of regeneration. That specific Government will give each local authority the capacity problem does not seem to be directly solved by the to have its personalised approach to HMOs, rather than localism agenda. a blanket central prescription. That is the way to target what needs to be done without imposing burdens on Andrew Stunell: My hon. Friend anticipates the next those who do not need them. paragraph of my speech, which talks about the £1 billion My hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) regional growth fund. I do not know how we do that, mentioned the planning system and the way in which it but there must be some kind of electricity between us. might result in projects being imposed on an area. We The Government intend to ensure that local areas have are devolving the planning framework to local authorities, the capacity to deliver on their priorities. We are taking so that they can establish their local plans and have the away the walls or barriers between the different funding freedom to take those decisions. We are putting power streams that local authorities receive so that they can set into the hands of local people and local communities, their own priorities. I was astonished to find that there which is very much at the heart of the big society. were 115 different income streams launched from my Department to local authorities. We are trying to break Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I accept what down those walls, so that the money that arrives in the the Minister says about intervention and passing down vaults at the town hall can be spent in the way that the power to local authorities. Will he also tell us about the elected representatives at the town hall believe is best. powers that local authorities have in relation to Government A number of other points were made, but let me agencies, such as the Environment Agency and Natural reassure all hon. Members that we intend to maintain England, whereby they are mandated to do something, the existing co-operation between Departments and I rather than given advice? shall look hard to see what opportunities there are to strengthen it, and the Minister with responsibility for Andrew Stunell: We are, of course, having a cull of tourism will, I am sure, do the same. We will retain the quangos. I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman’s specific concept of drawing together all the different public point, but if he wants to draw my attention to particularly service funding streams in an area, and ensure that we unhelpful prescriptive measures being imposed on his get the maximum value out of them. local area, I would be very happy to hear from him. The hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) That leads me nicely on to the fact that we are spoke about community asset transfer, and we are keen publishing, probably in December, the localism Bill, to ensure that such capacity is there for voluntary and which will devolve greater powers to councils and to community groups. I believe that the localism Bill will neighbourhoods so that local communities can shape contain specific provisions that open the door to that. their own future. We want to give local communities, I am looking at the time; I do not have very long and including those on the coast, the tools and incentives to I have not answered all the questions. If hon. Members support business growth and to create an enterprise want to reinforce their points by writing to me or culture. We recognise that coastal towns have unique getting in touch with me, please do so and I will do my challenges and that they need locally tailored solutions. best to give informative answers. 47WH Coastal Towns (Government Policy) 20 JULY 2010 48WH
[Andrew Stunell] University Funding (Yorkshire) If we are to ensure that coastal towns have the 12.30 pm resilience that they will need in the tough economic times that lie ahead, they must diversify their economies Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): and widen their economic bases. That means attracting Mr Amess, Huddersfield is not a coastal town, as you a range of employers offering jobs at different skill might have noticed, but I am very fond of all things levels and in new sectors. We need to ensure that coastal Whitby and Broadstairs. So that is a declaration of towns become more attractive places for people of interest in the subject of the last debate. working age, so that not everybody thinks that people This is the first Westminster Hall debate I have secured are only born in such towns or die there; we must show in the new Parliament and I do not apologise for that there is something to do in between times. That is returning to a subject that is absolutely crucial to all our an important part of the economic thinking of coastal regions. I say “all our regions”, but I remember the towns— Chancellor’s recent speech, in which he said: “Between 1998 and 2008, for every private sector job generated Mr David Amess (in the Chair): Order. We now move in the north and the midlands, 10 were created in London and the to our next debate. south.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 176.] In so many ways, we are two countries. We are, first, a country of the regions outside London and the south; and secondly, a country of London and the south. I understand that when the future of the regional development agencies was being discussed, it seemed that London, the south-east and the south-west would lose the particular focus that had been put on them. Is it not true that we must address the imbalance between the regions in terms of employment and innovation? Many years ago, when Sir Keith Joseph became the Secretary of State for Education he gave a reading list to all his civil servants and junior Ministers. My approach in my speech today will be rather like that. Furthermore, I would like anyone who takes note of this debate to appreciate that Yorkshire and Humber is a microcosm of all the regions: the problems that Yorkshire and Humber has are similar to those that all the regions outside London and the south-east have. I would like to refer everyone to the recent reports from the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts and the ERA Foundation about the productive capacity of our country and innovation. In particular, the NESTA report sets out four scenarios for the future of Britain’s productive capacity, which go to the very heart of the concerns I am expressing today about the funding of universities. In doing so, the report is concerned with how we will make a living and achieve a good standard of life for the citizens of this country. The first scenario that the NESTA report sets out is that we carry on doing more of what we are already doing—we carry on as we are. However, all the testing that NESTA has done of that scenario shows that it will not work; it will not increase productivity and jobs or get the economy moving again. The second scenario is that we invest entirely in and focus completely on a rebirth of manufacturing. Although that scenario is not entirely discounted, it is certainly not seen as an overall answer to the question of how we can re-energise our productive capacity. The NESTA report focuses on the third and fourth scenarios for the future. They involve changing the whole nature of our economy, turning it into an innovative one in which we seriously apply innovation to all its sectors. On reading the NESTA report, time and again we find that the real agent for delivering such change is our universities, and that if we do not use them to take a lead and innovate, we will not achieve the increase in productive capacity that we must achieve if our constituents are to have “the good life”. 49WH University Funding (Yorkshire)20 JULY 2010 University Funding (Yorkshire) 50WH
The ERA Foundation report is also interesting. Many of State made a good and balanced speech, saying that people do not know this, but the Royal Commission for we must do even more with less. He also indicated that the great exhibition of 1851 made so much money that there were certain ways in which we can raise funding Prince Albert was able to invest in buying most of and he spoke about how that funding is retained—or Kensington. Imperial college, the Victoria and Albert not retained—in universities. Museum and other such institutions are built on that land, and they have the freehold and receive the rents. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I should Through the ERA Foundation, they provide a lot of first declare that I worked for Leeds university for money—between £60 million and £80 million, I think—for 11 years and did a lot of work on open innovation in research into productive capacity, manufacturing and conjunction with other Yorkshire universities. I examined much else. a lot of research on universities, which I will elaborate The ERA Foundation report, which came out at on later if the hon. Gentleman gives way again. about the same time as the recent NESTA report, puts Sometimes, the debate is about whether some universities more emphasis on manufacturing than the NESTA should be privatised, but in fact, only 3.6% of the report does, but like the latter it says that manufacturing income of the American Ivy league universities comes must be highly innovative. Indeed, it says that manufacturing from the private sector, and British universities already must be led by innovation and by small and productive receive 2.8% of their income from the private sector. new enterprises. Again, universities figure prominently Having listened to the hon. Gentleman’s arguments in improving our capacity to deliver. So when I talk about university funding, I just want to say that privatisation today about the particular challenges in Yorkshire, I am of universities is not the route to go down. actually talking about something that is good for our whole country—investing in higher education. Mr Sheerman: I will certainly not be advocating the The data show that we invest about 5% of GDP in privatisation of universities in my speech. Some privatisation education. That figure is a little higher than the average has taken place already. The university of Buckingham for OECD countries but it is not the highest—I think was much vaunted and much publicised, but what does the average is about 4.6%—so we should not get carried it do? It specialises in the easy stuff—training lawyers away. Even with all the work and investment in education and accountants. At the moment, all the private sector that has gone on during the last 13 years, we have still seems to be choosing the easy, soft stuff on the margin. not become the OECD or world leader in investing in I have certainly not seen anyone come forward and say, education. “We’re going to start a proper university that teaches I used to chair the Education Committee, or whatever the tough, expensive subjects.” I agree with the hon. else it was called during the 10 years I chaired it, and Gentleman. time and again we looked at the increase in per capita The Secretary of State’s speech was good, but it failed spend on education. Of course, the great fashion—it to address innovation, universities’ role in leading it and was also absolutely the right fashion, in that it was an recent partnerships between universities and the private evidence-based policy—has been to invest in early years sector—partnerships with small and medium-sized education: education of the youngest age group through enterprises, with manufacturing and with the service to school-age. Later on in the age range, one sees that sector, which employs 57% of the people in my constituency. investment in higher education has been less than in Only 10% now work in manufacturing; 33% work in education generally. health, education and the local authority. Universities Higher education has therefore been fighting to do have good partnerships with SMEs country-wide and, more with less for a long time, and people must bear interestingly, worldwide. Universities working in partnership that in mind. Those who campaigned against what the have a role to play. The Secretary of State underrates Labour Government called “variable fees” and what the their key role in future investment in this country. This then Opposition called “top-up fees” should bear it in is my most serious point: if we are going to haul our mind that the reason why I was always totally in favour country properly into the 21st century and compete of top-up fees and why the Committee eventually came with the productivity of Germany, France and emerging out in favour of them was that we could not see any countries such as India and China, we must use our other way of getting a high level of investment in universities in a way that we have not done in the past. university teaching and research salaries. Indeed, Mr Amess, This is not the time to cut back; this is the time to if you look at the figures you will see that nearly all the invest in universities and to increase the money flowing money that has been raised from the top-up fees fund— into them. I have talked to all the universities in Yorkshire. whereby people make a payment towards their fees, A 25% cut will mean tremendous staffing cuts. One capped at £3,000—has gone into the salaries of researchers leading university in a major city told me that it will and lecturers. British universities have been greatly blessed mean cutting 1,000 jobs in the city. A university in the by having that ability to pay a decent wage, so that they next largest city—hon. Members can guess from the can attract and retain the top talent. size which cities I am talking about—says that it will Mr Amess, I want to refer you and everyone else here lose 600 jobs. Those figures are from one university; to three other pieces of reading. The first is the recent both cities have two universities. The 25% cut in the speech on higher education by the Secretary of State for higher education sector may not be a disaster in the Business, Innovation and Skills; the second is a speech short term—perhaps we will be able to live with it for a by Professor Malcolm Grant, the president and provost while—but it will have enormous long-term effects on of University college London; and the third is an article our industrial future. by Professor Steve Smith, the president of Universities I will not speak for too long, as I want to give the UK. I hope that people will read those speeches and Minister a chance to respond. Yorkshire’s universities articles and balance them against each other. The Secretary boost the region’s economy by £3.68 billion and play a 51WH University Funding (Yorkshire)20 JULY 2010 University Funding (Yorkshire) 52WH
[Mr Sheerman] in London and make a real difference to some towns that do not have the privilege of a higher education critical role in generating jobs, creating innovation and institution. driving enterprise. They are the most important source The universities sit at the centre of what I call my big of innovation and partnership in the regions. That is society. When I go back to my constituency, what is the recognised across parties; I am not making a narrow centre of my big Huddersfield? It is the university. The party political point. We are discussing a potential university employs the biggest and most talented group decision arising from the present state of the economy. of people, a lot of whom are well paid. Many live It does no one any good to exaggerate the state of the locally and are leaders in the town’s civic pride. That is UK economy. I refer people to a recent article by Sam important to a big society. Also, they are often close to Brittan, a known Conservative, the brother of a well-known the third sector. I have been a social enterpriser all my Conservative politician and a supporter of the coalition. life—I am told that I have started about 48 different He says that it does nobody any good to exaggerate how social enterprises—but we in the third sector are in bad the UK economy is, and shows carefully that the danger. Despite what the coalition Government have exaggerations are not true. We have gone through an said about being in favour of the third sector, it is going international meltdown of financial services and a world out of business rapidly. The people who used to fund recession, but Britain has not come out as badly as social enterprises and the third sector have either been people think. abolished or think they are in danger of being abolished, and the funding used by social enterprises is unavailable. I know that the coalition Government like to exaggerate, Many of them are going out of business or battening because that is what all new groups do when they take down the hatches until we find out what the alternatives over. They say, “We’ve looked at the books, and it’s so are to the funding we have become used to. bad we’ve got to take draconian measures.” That does We need to be a highly innovative nation and to not help anybody. We must take a realistic view of what invest in higher education. There ought to be someone—I we can and cannot afford. I could make myself unpopular hate to use the word “tsar”—who is responsible for outside this room by saying this, but if I were seeking to innovation in every university campus. They should reduce overall expenditure, I would cut other areas that report directly to the Secretary of State on how much are perhaps more sensitive in the public imagination— innovation there is, how successful it is, and what health, education and other Departments—long before partnerships there are. I approve of all that. There cutting into the potential of our productive sectors and needs to be new ways of doing things more efficiently our capacity to grow through the higher education and effectively, and of using resources better. I believe system. in all that, but for the future of our country, our regions and Yorkshire we must move steadily and steadfastly. We have two countries, as I said. To make things We must invest in higher education, in innovation and more dramatic, I return to the provost of University in our future. college London. Unfortunately, he echoed quite a deplorable comment made in a speech by an Education Minister in the present Government who was a good member of 12.50 pm my Select Committee. That Minister said that he would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, prefer an Oxbridge graduate with no teacher training Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I congratulate qualification over someone from a rubbish university the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) on with a postgraduate certificate in education. I thought securing the debate. In the last Parliament, as Chair of that that was a terrible remark. Malcolm Grant fell into the Select Committee on Children, Schools and Families, the same trap, saying that research money to rich universities he was a very authoritative voice on all aspects of should not be cut and that he would rather see “pile ’em education and he brings that knowledge and skill to high and sell ’em cheap” universities go to the wall. today’s debate. I am very sorry that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science is not Malcolm Grant should visit the university of here, but as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, he is Huddersfield, which is a cracking good, innovative attending the Select Committee on Business and Enterprise. university. We do not pile ’em high and sell ’em cheap; My right hon. Friend sends his apologies—I am very we emphasise quality. Recently, I went to an end-of-year much a stand-in. exhibition by our design students that ranged from high fashion right across to automotive design. People graduating The hon. Gentleman is passionate and knowledgeable from that university are snapped up all over the world about this subject and he has shown that today. I thank for their talent. I have here a document announcing a him for the role he plays in partnership with Kingston new programme in Huddersfield: “Towards an alternative university in my constituency. He is a trustee of the nuclear future: Capturing thorium-fuelled ADSR energy Rose theatre in Kingston, which has a partnership role technology for Britain”. with the local authority, local business and Kingston university in relation to creative arts. That is the sort of I say to the provost of University college London partnership he was talking about during his speech. that there are nine universities in Yorkshire and 43 in London. If I were considering the economic regeneration Mr Sheerman: I am an honorary doctor. of the regions, I know what I would do if cuts had to be made. I do not want to cut anyone’s money; I do not Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman is also an honorary want to close universities serving communities in the doctor. I should put it on the record that I am an most challenged parts of London. However, if push honorary fellow of Birkbeck college, London, which is came to shove, I would move 10 of those universities to showing the way in how we can be more innovative in other places in the country. That would ease congestion the higher education sector. I was interested to note that 53WH University Funding (Yorkshire)20 JULY 2010 University Funding (Yorkshire) 54WH he referred us to Sir Keith Joseph’s reading list. I am not are well aware—it is worth putting it on the record that sure if he wanted us to read the books on that list—probably Yorkshire universities tend to fare reasonably well compared not; I think he was creating his own reading list. I was with their counterparts in other parts of the country. delighted that he included a mention of the recent That is in no small part due to their strong research speech made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of performance. Yorkshire universities receive a level of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. He was generous research funding per higher education institution that is enough to say that it was a good and balanced speech, above the UK average, and two of its institutions are although he made the point that it did not mention among the 20 that receive the most research funding in innovation, which was the main focus of his speech the United Kingdom. He is absolutely right. The today. Government are keen to ensure that they can build on I reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government that success. are keen to do what they can to promote innovation. We The higher education sector is a success story for share his desire to ensure that higher education institutions Yorkshire. The university of Huddersfield in the hon. in Yorkshire and, indeed, across the country are able to Gentleman’s constituency illustrates what Yorkshire maintain their reputation for world-class research, which universities can achieve. I have mentioned the nano-lab, has been one of Great Britain’s key comparative advantages but the cutting edge Centre for Precision Technologies in recent decades. Although there will be some tough is also showing what Yorkshire universities can do for decisions to make, we are determined that when we precision engineering. Huddersfield university has other make them, we will not put that huge reputation and areas of expertise, including automotive engineering, the benefits that the wider economy gets from the work motor sport, computer games, electronic and electrical of our great universities at risk. engineering, multi-media and music technologies. Kingston university in my constituency also has many areas of Alec Shelbrooke: On the point about innovation, expertise in engineering. Given Kingston’s past, those something to which the hon. Member for Huddersfield are particularly related to the aeronautical industries. I (Mr Sheerman) did not refer—or he may have done in share his commitment to ensuring that universities are part—is that when universities in the Yorkshire region able to develop the innovative capacity they have shown come together, they have an outstanding opportunity to in the past. Despite the problems that will arise over the be the leading nanotechnology specialists in the world. next few years in ensuring the funding is fair, we must Indeed, York university has one of only four machines ensure that such a capacity to innovate is not lost, as it in the world that can photograph molecules down to can play its part in reducing the public sector deficit. that level and see them lined up, and Huddersfield The hon. Gentleman said that we should not talk university has one of the most precise measuring down the state of the British economy. There is no instruments in the world. desire to talk the economy down, but there is a desire to Overall, innovation is part of the bread and butter of deal with the huge challenges we face—a public sector universities. Will the Minister give some thought to how deficit that is 11% of GDP, and the highest public sector he can free up universities to enable them to capitalise deficit within the OECD. The Government cannot sit on the intellectual property that they develop? At the by and do nothing. I am sure he will admit—he is such a moment, they struggle to do so because their charity reasonable person and is very knowledgeable—that the status means they are unable to make a profit. If they previous Government were considering some significant did, they would be hit by VAT, which would be bad for reductions in funding in this area for this year. If them. If we can change some of the rules that they play anything, compared with the grant letter of December by, a huge income stream would be available to universities, last year, this Government are putting more money into which would bring into universities the investment that HE this year for the 10,000 places, which has led to we all want to see. some debate. The previous Government were planning £600 million of spending reductions to take place in Mr Davey: I am sure that my right hon. Friend the future years. On financing the HE sector, this Government Minister for Universities and Science will want to reflect have not uniquely decided that they want to consider on those remarks, because we will be searching for new reducing spending; they are taking on the previous revenue streams. It is incumbent on this Government to Government’s proposals. do so as we make some difficult decisions about public funding. The hon. Gentleman’s comment is therefore Mr Sheerman: I am sure that the Minister’s officials very helpful. The university of Huddersfield is exceedingly will have looked at the speech I made in this Chamber expert in that area and has a unique nano-lab facility. in January, in which I complained about the previous As he was saying, that shows the great research facilities Government’s cut to university funding. So I agree with that are in the Yorkshire higher education institutions him on that. However, what does he think our competitors and how they benefit when they work together either are thinking? Higher education is the one sector in across Yorkshire or, indeed, the N8 group more broadly which we are the world leaders—we compete with the across the north. Americans, the Australians and the Canadians—but suddenly we are going to start cutting it by 25%. That is Mr Sheerman: Yorkshire ranks No. 1 in all the regions what he is predicting—25%. in terms of attracting inward investment—£28 million a year—for new start-up businesses. Mr Davey: I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman is claiming consistency in that he says that he criticised Mr Davey: I understand that. It is one of the reasons the previous Government for their spending cut proposals. why I wanted to say to the hon. Gentleman that, although We share his vision of the crucial role that universities there will be a difficult funding climate—as colleagues and innovation play in our economy, the productive 55WH University Funding (Yorkshire) 20 JULY 2010 56WH
[Mr Davey] Equitable Life sectors and so on. There is no dispute in that area, but 1pm there is a dispute about the role that the university sector must play in facing up to the immediate public Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): finance problems facing the country. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate Equitable Life. As a parliamentary candidate, along with many I apologise to the hon. Gentleman because I am others from all parties, I signed a public pledge to running out of time. I shall conclude by saying that support and vote for proper compensation for the victims there are no easy solutions to the challenges that this of the Equitable Life scandal and the setting up of a country—this Government—faces on public spending. swift, simple, transparent and fair payment scheme, We should not run away from those challenges, because independent of Government, as recommended by the it will be in the long-term interests of our university parliamentary ombudsman. I am here today, along with sector if we face up to them. With the help of Lord many concerned colleagues, because, with the Chadwick Browne’s review, which will conclude in the autumn, we report due imminently, I wanted to give the Minister an will have the knowledge base and understanding to put opportunity to hear the views of parliamentary colleagues forward a fair and equitable settlement. Such a settlement and Members an opportunity to raise the concerns that will ensure that our universities have sustainable funding have been brought to them since the election. and that access to universities is not undermined. I must confess that I spent much of Sunday watching the Opposition day debate from 17 March on Parliament TV—although that may raise doubts about my sanity, it was very reassuring. The Minister showed a real understanding of the appalling injustice that has been suffered by Equitable members. According to the Equitable members action group—EMAG—more than 1,000 policyholders and 2,000 group scheme members live in my constituency. He understood the anger felt at the previous Government’s delaying tactics. Most importantly, he was clear in committing a future Conservative Government to implementing an effective compensation scheme in a timely manner. I am pleased that that commitment has been restated in the coalition programme. Nevertheless, concerns have been raised with me and my colleagues since the election. As many of us are new Members who did not have the chance to contribute to the most recent debate on the matter, I know that the Minister will appreciate the opportunity to hear their views as he considers the Treasury response to the Chadwick report and decides on future plans for a payment scheme. I am not inclined to give a summary of the Labour Government’s attempts to avoid the findings of the Penrose inquiry and hobble the ombudsman in her first inquiry, only to refuse to accept her conclusions of maladministration and injustice in her second inquiry and the subsequent judicial review, which determined that much of their refusal failed the cogency test. I am sure that all Members present are familiar with that sorry saga; if they are not, there is an excellent Commons Library standard note on the matter, which they can peruse at their leisure. Suffice it to say that the Minister has been left with a scandalous legacy by his predecessor, and one that I would not wish on my worst enemy. I will focus on some of the main barriers to progress that we face. The first barrier is that Equitable members have had all their faith in Government systematically destroyed by the transparent attempts by the previous Administration to delay and obfuscate—one of the few instances of transparency they can boast. The accusation that the Treasury made the cold-hearted calculation that the longer the process took, the less it would have to pay out, as Equitable members were dying off at such a rate, has never been verified. Nevertheless, the accusation sits uncomfortably in the middle of the negotiating room, making it difficult to build a constructive relationship when attempting to create a scheme that Equitable members can support. 57WH Equitable Life20 JULY 2010 Equitable Life 58WH
Together we will have to find a way to build that can ensure a process in which all partners can take part relationship, however painful the process, and to start is by showing that we are not in some way trying to rebuilding trust, and I suspect that no amount of rhetoric brush under the carpet some of the problems that the will do the trick. The only way Equitable members will previous Government did. be able to move past the consistent abuse they suffered at the hands of the previous Government will be by Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): My hon. seeing concrete action replace warm words. I urge the Friend is making a strong case. Like her, I wish to see Minister to remember that history as he moves forward. justice for the victims of the problem. Does she agree Many of us feel that, after our active championing of with me that it would be helpful if in the meantime all the cause of EMAG members when in opposition, they the work proceeds on cleaning up the records and should feel that they can trust us. It is clear, however, ensuring that the lists, and therefore the potential eligibility that having suffered so much from Labour’s broken by category, are in the best possible order so that my promises for so long, they now find it difficult to trust hon. Friend the Minister can make a speedy disposition so easily. The only remedy for that distrust is to prove of funds once he has made a decision? the doubter wrong by delivering in government what we promised in opposition. At the same time, Equitable Nicola Blackwood: My right hon. Friend makes an members must meet us halfway by working in partnership excellent point. With all the delays we have seen, the last with, rather than just in opposition to, the Government thing we want is to come to an agreement on the terms as we try to find a way to bring them justice. of a payments scheme, only to have to embark on a lengthy period of making the data ready for that. It Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Another point is would be excellent to hear the Minister’s comments on that so many Equitable Life members are very hard up. that point. I have received letters from many constituents, and one On timetabling, it does not take much imagination to couple I heard from are now surviving on pension see how such long-term uncertainty would eat away at credits and rent rebates after a lifetime’s savings were an Equitable member, causing as much damage as a decimated by the Equitable Life scandal. shrinking pension. The Minister was vocal in calling for a clear timetable in his statement on 17 March, so I am Nicola Blackwood: That is the message I receive in my sure that he will be able to offer a timetable today, or post box day after day, and I am sure that many very shortly in a statement to the House. colleagues have similar cases. The final problem I will mention is the deep suspicion The second problem we face is uncertainty. For decades, with which EMAG members view the Chadwick process. Equitable members have been treated with the utmost Indeed, the fact that they pulled out of that process less contempt by the management of Equitable Life, the than 24 hours before the most recent debate on the regulators and, latterly, the Labour Government, who matter was noted, as has the fact that as a result the refused to give them clear answers, denied their claims final Chadwick report might be subject to serious dispute, of injustice, even in the face of all the evidence and, if not to judicial review proceedings, which will also even after accepting some measure of responsibility, delay proceeding. have consistently refused to give the victims any indication The concerns they have raised include the assumption of the timetable or costing. of the third interim report, which asserted that regulators should be assessed on the basis of the lowest common Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Does my denominator, despite the fact that the High Court judgment hon. Friend agree that, as we are determined to rebuild in EMAG v. Her Majesty’s Government found that it a savings culture, in addition to honouring our manifesto was reasonable to assess injustice on the basis of not pledge, it is vital that people can invest in pensions with only strict legal liability, but policyholder’s reasonable confidence, knowing that they will be compensated if expectation of a regulator. During those court proceedings, those are mis-sold? the ombudsman expressed concern that the Chadwick process broke the link between injustice arising from Nicola Blackwood: I agree entirely. A key concern maladministration and the provision of any remedy by during the general election campaign was the fear that limiting future payments to those who had been the saving culture in this country, which for so long had disproportionately affected. Also, among current EMAG been part of our economy, had been completely destroyed. members is a sense that, in our straitened economic We must do everything we can to avoid entrenching that times, the Chadwick report will find a way to underestimate destruction. the losses.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): The hon. Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): Does my hon. Lady, who is my fellow Oxford Member, makes her case Friend agree that addressing the loss, even in straitened passionately and effectively. Is not the crucial point that times, is important? The Government ought to send out we get a commitment to transparency and fairness, the signal that people who do the right thing should not which is what EMAG has been calling for, and that it be penalised, which is what has happened in the Equitable would therefore be helpful to hear from the Minister on Life situation. how the coalition Government intend to change and enhance the remit that was given to Sir John Chadwick? Nicola Blackwood: Yes, and that speaks to the earlier comments on the need to protect and enhance the Nicola Blackwood: Transparency must clearly be at saving culture and on sending the right message to the heart of any process we now embark upon. As I people that they can put faith in how we regulate have said, with trust at an all-time low, the only way we savings. 59WH Equitable Life20 JULY 2010 Equitable Life 60WH
[Nicola Blackwood] losses. If we attempted to pay out in full, according to calculations that do not have the confidence of the Could the Minister comment on two proposals that public, we would do significant damage to our credibility might address the concerns about the Chadwick process for the long term. which EMAG has raised with all of us? First, the The Equitable Life case is a prism of the wider legacy Chadwick report should not be the foundation of a of the Labour Government: public distrust in politicians payment scheme but, rather, one of the resources used and Governments at an all-time low, as a result not just in creating an independent payment scheme. Secondly, of media-induced cynicism but of Labour’s chronic the final assessment of losses should accurately reflect inability to deliver on its promises or to take responsibility the cost that Equitable Life members have borne. for its mistakes. The case is one of our key tests, a barometer of how straightforward we will be in the face Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): We have all of the tough choices that we have spoken about so received lots of letters from EMAG, as candidates and often. as Members of Parliament, but two things have not I have the greatest confidence that the Government been mentioned today—the dependants of policyholders will be honest and open about the extent of the damage who are now deceased because there has been such inflicted on Equitable Life members and of the capacity delay, and the issue of not means-testing such people. of the Government to remedy it. According to the Does my hon. Friend agree? Minister’s own words, he has the compassion to lose no time in setting out a detailed programme for that remedy, Nicola Blackwood: I believe that those issues were putting to an end the decades of injustice and uncertainty raised on 17 March and that there might have been a endured by hundreds of thousands of Equitable Life subsequent commitment. However, hearing the Minister’s members. confirmation would be helpful. Two issues are at stake in the process. The first is 1.14 pm purely financial. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban): First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): With respect, I add for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) that Equitable Life victims in Dover are deeply concerned. on securing the debate, the first in this Parliament on I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate Equitable Life. I am certain it will not be the last such and on her excellent argument. debate. I want to respond to a couple of points made in Nicola Blackwood: The first of the two issues at stake interventions before returning to the main thrust of my is purely financial—the technical problems of designing remarks. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham a scheme that is fair, transparent, swift and simple. The (Mr Redwood) asked about the quality and cleansing of second issue, which is almost more challenging, is ethical— the data. It is important to place on the record that the admission of responsibility by the Government for there are 1.5 million policyholders holding 2 million regulatory failures and the acknowledgement of what policies, and that 30 million premium transactions have that failure has meant to Equitable Life members. taken place over the period in question. The quality of By failing to admit the full extent of the losses, we data is a huge problem. I am grateful to EMAG for the will fail on the latter issue, ethically, even if we succeed offer of access to its database to help us cleanse the on the former, financially. I do not see any reason why information. Equitable Life and others will be working we need to go down that route. All parties have consistently with us to ensure the best-quality database. My right stated that final payments will have to be balanced hon. Friend is absolutely right that such work needs to against other calls on the public purse. The High Court proceed in parallel with other work streams, so that we stated that, as the Government were not required to can make payments to policyholders as quickly as possible. create a compensation scheme, any legal objections to Reference was made to the importance of savings. the nature of such a scheme were bound to fail, so there The regulatory reforms that my right hon. Friend the seems to be no legal barrier. Chancellor announced last month include the establishment In my dealings with EMAG, representatives have of a consumer protection and markets agency, which clearly stated that they understand that full payment will help to improve the regulation of our financial may well not be possible, but they want an services, hopefully contributing along with other measures acknowledgement, at least, from the Government of to rebuilding a savings culture in this country. the full cost that they have shouldered. I did not need this afternoon’s debate to remind me of the importance of Equitable Life to so many of my Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): We all have big colleagues, having received a number of letters, answered postbags on the subject, obviously.We need clear milestones a number of written parliamentary questions and had a for delivery. That is what most of my supporters in this number of oral representations from colleagues about connection want—milestones. how important the matter is. I understand the strength of feeling, and I hope that, over the past four or five Nicola Blackwood: Along with the rest of the country, years in this role in opposition and now in government, Equitable Life members know that we have been left to I have come to be seen by policyholders as a strong clear up Labour’s financial mess. All sections of society advocate for ending the plight of those who have suffered will have to do their bit in getting our national finances as a consequence of Government maladministration. I back on track. If we ask EMAG members to trust us, as want to see a swift response but, vitally, one that is their Government, we should trust them to accept that transparent and fair to all policyholders and to the we might be able to pay back only a percentage of their taxpayer. 61WH Equitable Life20 JULY 2010 Equitable Life 62WH
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Mr Hoban: My views have not changed in that period. Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem is that, An option one gets as a Minister is to drive the process because it has taken so long to get to the point we have forward further and faster, and to change the approach. reached today, we are in a worse position than if the What hon. Members will have seen over the past eight situation had only recently occurred? Therefore, having weeks, which will become clearer when Sir John’s report promised to make good the damage left by Labour, we is published, is that we have adopted a much more must put the matter to rest as quickly as possible—even transparent and open approach to the resolution of the quicker than in normal circumstances. problem. As part of that transparency, I will publish with Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important Sir John’s report the advice provided by his actuaries as point. The crisis has gone on for too long. Lord Penrose’s well as correspondence he has received on the matter. In report was back in 2000, and the previous Government the light of the sensitivity of the issue, we must know could have tackled the issue then. They blocked the how he developed his methodology and what has informed ombudsman’s second inquiry into Equitable Life, and his thinking. To restore trust in the process, I want to be they took six months to respond to the ombudsman’s as open and transparent as possible about our approach report. At every step in the process, the previous and the losses suffered by policyholders. I believe that Government delayed. We want to make rapid progress, that is the best way to tackle the distrust that my hon. but fairly and transparently for policyholders and taxpayers. Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon In our coalition agreement we pledged to make fair referred to in her speech. and transparent payments, through an independently designed scheme, to policyholders for their relative loss Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I am sure that as a consequence of regulatory failure. In the two people listening to this debate will be reassured by the months since we have been in office, we have made real approach that the coalition Government are taking, in progress and will continue to do so over the coming contrast with that taken by the previous Government. months. In May, in the Queen’s Speech, we announced Can the Minister confirm that, in taking into account an Equitable Life Bill, which will give the Treasury the what the Chadwick report says about the scale of the statutory authority to incur expenditure in making losses suffered by Equitable members, the coalition payments to those who have suffered loss in connection Government’s approach to how payments will be judged with maladministration and the regulation of Equitable is new and not built on any of the previous Government’s Life. The Bill will be introduced shortly and will be an work? important step towards resolving the issue. Mr Hoban: I will come on to the commission shortly, Another important step will be the imminent publication if Members will bear with me. of Sir John Chadwick’s final report on Equitable Life. It will give us a greater understanding of the losses that As I said, I want the process to be as open and policyholders have suffered. Some have called for us to transparent as possible. I have said to the House that abandon the Chadwick process or to alter Sir John’s when we publish Sir John’s report, I will provide a terms of reference. However, after careful consideration, substantive update on the next steps in the process. We I decided to allow Sir John to continue with his work have already set out the important steps in how we will under the current terms of reference. His work has been take the work forward, and some points about how the the culmination of almost 18 months of detailed analysis scheme will work. and evidence gathering. He and his actuaries have delved My hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew deeply into the issues, and their work has been informed Bingham) raised a couple of points in his intervention. I by consultations with interested parties. For example, wish to make it clear that there should be no means-testing, his flexible approach to establishing loss removes from and that the estates of deceased policyholders should be policyholders the burden of proving what they would included in the scheme. We felt it important to clarify have done had they been aware of problems at Equitable those two issues early on in order to settle some Life. It is important to have his work available, as it will policyholders’ worries, and I am happy to reiterate aid us in providing a swift response. those commitments today. I will establish an independent commission that will Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The Minister advise on how best to allocate funds to policyholders certainly has the reputation with EMAG members that and to help develop the scheme design. One of the key he mentioned earlier, but an issue of concern is the aspects of the ombudsman’s recommendations was that Government’s attitude to Chadwick. The Minister said any scheme should be independent of Government, and that their response would be published imminently. Is I agree with the thinking behind that recommendation. there likely to be a statement before the summer recess? The commission will be given a remit that will allow it truly to add value to the process. Mr Hoban: I believe that there will be a statement The process will be time-consuming, and there is the before the summer recess. I recognise the concerns potential that payments will be delayed if we ask the about Sir John’s work, but it is a useful building block in commission to start the process of determining relative the process. To dismiss it and not give it due consideration loss from scratch. However, we want it to play a role in would be an error. developing a fair outcome for all policyholders.
George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Has the Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): The Minister shape of the Minister’s thoughts on moving this issue kindly mentioned how the funds will be paid out. In my forward changed from what he announced as the constituency, a number of people are concerned that Conservative party’s plans in March? because it will take a long time to appoint the commission, 63WH Equitable Life20 JULY 2010 Equitable Life 64WH
[Amber Rudd] and we will consider the potential impact on the public purse of any scheme, and what is affordable, before we which will then have to go through its own procedure, decide how much we can allocate to the scheme. We will further delays could be added. Can he tell us how the ensure that fairness is at the forefront of our thinking commission will be put together and what his expectations when making those difficult decisions. are of the timing? I would like to take a moment to mention the excellent work of EMAG, which has campaigned for many years Mr Hoban: I am keen that the commission should for a fair resolution to the matter. In opposition and work as quickly as possible. In many respects, the now in government, I have met members of the EMAG process would have been shorter without the commission, board, who have relayed to me their concerns about the but it is an important guarantee of transparency and Chadwick process. I will say to hon. Members what I openness, and it is right that it be given a remit to do said to them: Sir John is only a building block in our this work. Equally, I am mindful of the fact that we approach, and I am willing to listen to EMAG and need to give it a tight timetable, so that it has time to other interested parties who can give useful and productive think about the issues but is not seen as delaying the insight into this complex issue. process of making payments to policyholders. I remind hon. Members that no final decisions have Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): One of the yet been made on many of the important issues associated concerns is that, sadly, many policyholders have died or with the scheme. I want the decisions to be in the best are dying. Can the Minister give some comfort on the interests of policyholders and taxpayers, and I encourage issue of giving interim payments once the decision has EMAG and others to be involved so that we can move been taken, so that people can receive payments before the process on and find a resolution, for which policyholders the commission has completed its work? have waited for many years. I will give more details on our approach and the next Mr Hoban: I am conscious of the fact that many steps in the process when Sir John Chadwick’s final policyholders are elderly, but there is a challenge: we report is published, but I can confidently say that we need to ensure that the scheme is designed transparently are moving towards our objective of resolving the issue. and fairly, and that there is fairness between groups of We are now reaching a crucial stage in the story of policyholders as well as between policyholders and the Equitable Life payment scheme. What happens in taxpayers. The commission should look at where priority the coming months will be decisive in laying out how the payments should be made, but I am wary of the question scheme operates and the quantum of payments that will of how we can make interim payments to people on a be made to policyholders. I encourage all MPs to engage sound basis that will not lead to further problems later. in the debate. This is certainly an issue that we must get I take on board my hon. Friend’s point, but there are right. some challenges in taking the idea forward. A key issue for many policyholders and Members of Parliament is how much the scheme will cost. As the 1.26 pm ombudsman said, it is appropriate to think about that, Sitting suspended. 65WH 20 JULY 2010 Ministry of Defence (Statistics) 66WH
Ministry of Defence (Statistics) A series of parliamentary questions on defence spending has, until recently, been answered by the MOD making estimates of how much it has spent in each nation of the 1.30 pm UK. That has been broken down by service personnel Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I am pleased to costs, civilian personnel costs, equipment expenditure have secured this debate on Ministry of Defence regional and non-equipment expenditure, such as utilities and and national statistics, because as we speak the strategic maintenance, and so on. defence and security review, which is looking at the There is a complete MOD data set from 2002 to 2008 shape and role of United Kingdom conventional defence that shows a significant and widening structural defence policy, is underway in the MOD. Given the extreme underspend relative to population in Scotland: it has financial constraints, we expect to learn about radical increased from £749 million in 2002-03 to £1.259 billion changes to the UK armed forces when the SDSR reports in 2007-08, which represents a 68% increase in six years. before the end of this year. The Royal United Services Between 2002 and 2008, the underspend in Scotland Institute expects a 20% reduction in manpower and a totalled a mammoth £5.6 billion. Between 2005 and budget cut of between 10% and 15%. In that context, 2008 there was a drastic real-terms decline year on year MOD statistics and facts relating to UK defence are key in the defence spending in Scotland: in total, the previous in informing the SDSR, as well as in holding the MOD Labour Government slashed defence spending by and UK Government to account. £150 million in those years. There was a 3% cut in Although it is essential that the SDSR be driven by defence spending between 2006-07 and 2007-08 in Scotland. defence, foreign and security policy priorities, it must Those are MOD statistics. Widening the statistics to also be relevant to consider what defence footprint include Wales and Northern Ireland, in the six years there has been and what there will be in the future. I fear from 2002 to 2008, there was an accumulated underspend that the SDSR will lead to large parts of the UK having of £14.2 billion. Looking at the overall trend, in Scotland no defence infrastructure, with fewer bases, reduced and Wales in each of the past six years the underspend units and manpower, and severely imbalanced defence figure has gone up faster than the overall budget of the spending. MoD, highlighting a situation that is getting progressively worse, squeezing each country more each year. There are reasons to believe that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and some English regions will come Although the MOD budget has not increased every off worst. That worrying prospect is supported by past year in real terms, figures on the percentage change regional and defence statistics issued by the Ministry of from 2002 to 2008 shows that its budget increased by Defence. In recent years, the MOD has confirmed that 24%, but the underspend increased by more than 50%. more than 10,000 defence jobs have been lost in Scotland In each of the past five years, the amount spent in and that there has been a defence underspend in excess Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland combined has of £5.6 billion. The defence underspend statistics for been less than the UK spends overseas. Money spent Wales and Northern Ireland in the same period are overseas does not include current operations, such as £6.7 billion and £1.8 billion respectively. No doubt, if Afghanistan, and the like. For example, a larger contingent the MOD provided regional breakdowns for the English of troops is stationed in Germany than is based in regions those would show that other areas have also Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland combined. been badly disadvantaged. These facts are shocking and they pose problems for Most shocking of all in an advanced modern democracy the MOD to answer. Hansard shows that despite numerous is that the UK Government have decided that, rather attempts to get Ministers and Prime Ministers to explain than explain the impact of their policies, manpower the underspend and jobs cuts, no explanation has been cuts and spending disparities, they will simply stop forthcoming. Instead, the MOD hit on the novel idea of providing the statistics. I should point out that regional simply not answering the questions any more. In 2009, and national defence statistics are available in other tucked away in a report, the MOD confirmed that: countries. With a mouse click, one can access such “Ministers have agreed that after this year (2009) the Ministry information down to state level in the United States. In of Defence (MOD) will no longer compile national and regional Canada, a nation with close parliamentary and military employment estimates because the data do not directly support links to the UK, the Department of National Defence MOD policy making and operations.” produces similar statistics, both at provincial and On 6 April, the then Secretary of State for Defence constituency level. Those and other countries think that provided what turned out to be the last parliamentary it is right and proper to confirm their employment and answer on defence expenditure in Scotland. He explained: spending decisions, and that clearly impacts on their policy thinking. Until recently, that was also the case in “Since 2008 the MOD has not collected estimates of regional the UK, where the Ministry of Defence answered questions expenditure on equipment, non-equipment, or personnel costs as they do not directly support policy making or operations.”—[Official relating to regional defence employment and regional Report, 6 April 2010; Vol. 508, c. 1200W.] spending. Rather than provide the information, which is readily The MOD has confirmed that there are now 10,480 fewer available in the Ministry of Defence, the decision was people employed in defence jobs in Scotland than in taken just to stop providing it. Of course, that decision 1997, which amounts to 1,880 fewer services personnel was taken under the Labour Government. I hope that and 4,600 fewer civilian jobs in addition to the loss of the rhetoric in the public pronouncements about 4,000 jobs that were supported by defence expenditure. transparency and new politics by the incoming Government Those are MOD statistics. That leaves the current uniformed is matched by their openness. contingent in Scotland roughly at around 11,000, which is less per head of population than the armed forces of On page seven of the coalition agreement, the Prime the Irish Republic. Minister and Deputy Prime Minister say: 67WH Ministry of Defence (Statistics)20 JULY 2010 Ministry of Defence (Statistics) 68WH
[Angus Robertson] to the Government from being open, honest and transparent about their policy decisions and how they impact on the “we are both committed to turning old thinking on its head and nations and regions of the UK. developing new approaches to government. For years, politicians could argue that because they held all the information, they In recent years, UK Governments have cut back needed more power. But today, technological innovation has—with manpower, amalgamated regiments and closed facilities astonishing speed—developed the opportunity to spread information in Scotland. Since the last strategic defence review, and decentralise power in a way we have never seen before. So we defence jobs in Scotland have been cut while numbers will extend transparency to every area of public life.” have risen elsewhere in the UK. A mammoth multi-billion Section 16 of that agreement, which is entitled “Government pound defence underspend has opened up and we hear Transparency”, says: from the SDSR that serious cuts are pending. Despite “The Government believes that we need to throw open the Scotland having fewer airbases and aircraft than our doors of public bodies, to enable the public to hold politicians Scandinavian neighbours of comparable size, the SDSR and public bodies to account.... Setting government data free will is considering base closures. Despite only three Army bring significant economic benefits”. battalions being based in Scotland, there are fears that Two specific commitments are mentioned. The Government Scottish-recruited units could be further cut and barracks say that, first: closed. Despite the reduction in the number of conventional naval craft to a handful of minesweepers on the Clyde, “We will require full, online disclosure of all central government spending and contracts over £25,000”; there is an option to cut them still further. and secondly: Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): “We will create a new ‘right to data’ so that government-held The hon. Gentleman clearly knows his material and will datasets can be requested and used by the public, and then be aware that published Ministry of Defence statistics published on a regular basis.” show the vital role that the shipbuilding and refitting That is good. Given those clear, unambiguous industry plays in many regions in Scotland. He will commitments, I was delighted to hear similar claims of know the devastating impact that cancellation of the openness from the new Defence ministerial team during second aircraft carrier would have on the Scottish economy. the House of Commons debate on the strategic defence Will he join me in congratulating the Labour and Scottish and security review a few weeks ago. Hansard records National party leaderships on Fife council, who have that the new Armed Forces Minister, whom I welcome put aside their political differences, such is the importance to the Chamber, said: of the shipbuilding and refitting industry to Fife and “Hon. Members—and everybody else—have the opportunity elsewhere? to contribute and make whatever representations they wish to make. If there are hon. Members who feel that they are under- informed, and want more information to inform representations Angus Robertson: I am delighted that SNP-led Fife that they might make during the review, they need only let us council and the Labour Opposition are working as know. Ministers have an open-door policy, and Members are colleagues, because the matter is one of concern in Fife welcome to any further information that they feel they need.” and on the Clyde, as well as other parts of the country That prompted me to intervene, saying that the previous where a defence footprint remains. That is all the more Government had provided this information and asking reason why we need as many facts and figures as possible whether the new coalition would do so. He replied: to understand the current situation and what it might be in future. The areas that I have mentioned are not the “Yes. Whatever information right hon. and hon. Members need in order to make representations to the review”. only ones to be affected; there are also questions involving military command functions that have recently been I intervened to make doubly sure, asking, downgraded in Scotland, and apparently a further “Is that a yes?” downgrading is being considered. The Minister answered unambiguously, A real danger in the defence review is a further “That is a yes. Hon. Members need only ask for any information geographical concentration of the UK defence footprint that they need.”—[Official Report, 21 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 132.] away from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and some Naturally, I was delighted and impressed, and I wrote English regions. Hon. Members should look where the a grateful letter to the Minister. I received a reply on the current service headquarters are, where the main operating same day. In the blink of an eye, he wrote: bases and garrisons are, where the main training facilities “I regret that I may have given you a misleading impression on are, and where the defence budget is being spent, and what information the Government can provide… I am sorry to ask whether the trend of geographic concentration will send you what I know will be a disappointing response”. continue. In an instant, the Ministry of Defence reneged on its The Government may believe that they can hide the promise to the House of Commons and, by extension, consequences of their centralising priorities and policies the Government reneged on their coalition agreement by refusing to publish key statistics, but it will be hard on openness and transparency. to avoid the facts on the ground. UK Governments There are other vital clues that should make everyone have been content to recruit young men and women who is concerned about a defence footprint across the from across these islands and often to send them into UK examine the matter closely. Apparently, the UK harm’s way. At some point soon, the MOD must ask Government believe that there is itself whether it is acting in the interests of the whole UK. Defence policy is not just about strategic and “no clear defence benefit to be gained” foreign policy considerations, which must of course by collating statistics by region. Apparently, national drive any review; it is also about the defence footprint, and regional data do not directly support MOD decision about where our personnel are stationed and about making. Frankly, that is code for there being no benefit where defence resources are spent. 69WH Ministry of Defence (Statistics)20 JULY 2010 Ministry of Defence (Statistics) 70WH
The UK Government must end the secrecy on regional The 4th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland is and national defence statistics and the SDSR must currently based at Fallingbostel in Germany. Its personnel consider the impact of its deliberations on the nations would not appear in any statistics as being based in and regions of the UK. If it is good enough for other Scotland, but that does not lessen the battalion’s connection countries to do, it is good enough for the UK Government with Scotland, or the contribution that it makes to to do; if it is what is in the coalition agreement, it is Scotland’s economy. Of course not. Scots serving in the what they should deliver on; and if it is what was various parts of the Army, the Royal Navy, or the Royal promised in the House of Commons, it should not be Air Force, but not necessarily based in Scotland, do reneged on. not, in any sense, lessen the contribution that those Scots make to the Armed Forces. As the Secretary of 1.45 pm State said recently in the House, the service personnel we meet do not care whether their comrades come from The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast or London. They are all Ministry of Defence national and regional statistics members of the armed forces under the Crown, and may sound a fairly obscure subject for a debate, so you proud of it. can imagine my astonishment, Mr Amess, when I walked into the Chamber and found it packed to the rafters. I The hon. Gentleman spoke passionately about patterns thought that there must have been some misunderstanding, of defence spending. He referred to the defence footprint, and it was soon cleared up when hon. Members trooped and then alleged that there was a defence underspend in out. Nevertheless, I congratulate the hon. Member for Scotland, but that is simply not the basis on which Moray (Angus Robertson) on raising the matter, which defence could possibly be organised by a Department is clearly one about which he feels keenly.He demonstrated with specific responsibility for the provision of defence that the crux of the matter is not statistics. Rather it is in of the entire realm. We have an interest in the defence the size and structure of our armed forces and how we footprint to some extent, but only in so far as it enables go about equipping them. The subject could hardly be our military functions to be performed better. We must more serious. ask whether footprint is an issue in military terms, and The hon. Gentleman clearly feels strongly about the whether it affects our ability to recruit from and defend matter. He has two major RAF operating bases in his the whole of the United Kingdom. That is the beginning constituency, and a significant number of his constituents and end of the Ministry of Defence’s responsibility to are armed forces personnel. Clearly, he has done something consider the defence footprint. to impress them at the last three elections because they It cannot be repeated often enough that every pound continue to send him back as their MP. He has also of the defence budget must deliver as much as possible spoken as his party’s spokesperson on defence matters. for the men and women of our armed forces, and That party is, of course, the Scottish National party, through them, our national security. As Minister for the and because of its pursuit of independence for Scotland Armed Forces, I make no apologies for seeing beyond comes with a certain perspective of the world. He will where a firm is based and looking at the overall benefit understand that I do not share that perspective, and as to our service personnel. It is the duty of Government Minister for the Armed Forces, I could hardly be expected to ensure that the defence budget is spent wisely, maximising to do so. the resources available to the front line and ensuring The hon. Gentleman has spoken forcefully about the that every pound counts. implications for Scotland of how the defence budget is Operating at a national UK level is the only way that spent, but I and my ministerial colleagues are more we will achieve the best value for money and deliver concerned with the implications for the men and women what the armed forces need. That is what matters. The in the armed forces. Let me be absolutely clear that the hon. Gentleman seems to propose a different method of purpose of the defence budget is to maintain the armed spending the defence budget. He implies that there forces so that they can contribute to our nation’s security— should be a quota for each region and nation of the the whole nation’s security. Every pound that the MOD United Kingdom. Perhaps he thinks that a set proportion spends must contribute to the security of the United should be spent in each region; perhaps a set proportion Kingdom. Decisions on where personnel are based, and should be spent overseas. He seems to believe in a on which contracts are let to which firms are based concept of a “fair share” to be calculated per head of fundamentally and totally on what is best for the armed population, and the implication seems to be that we forces. should do that irrespective of the capabilities that it I fear that the thesis that the hon. Gentleman advanced would provide for the armed forces. Surely he does not is based on a completely false premise of how defence think that that would be a wise way to allocate the works—for example, the idea that a variation in the defence budget? If that argument is taken to the extreme number of servicemen and women permanently based and we look at regions where there are no defence in Scotland is somehow related to manufacturers, the logic would suggest that we should artificially stimulate the creation of a defence manufacturer. Scotland’s significance to our armed forces. That is simply not the case. The armed forces offer amazing opportunities to those who want to join, regardless of Thomas Docherty: Will the Minister give way? which part of the United Kingdom they come from. Scots may join any part of the Royal Navy, Royal Nick Harvey: With great reluctance, since the hon. Marines, Royal Air Force, or the Army, and have a Gentleman has not observed the normal courtesies. tremendous career. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that even joining the Royal Regiment of Scotland Thomas Docherty: Does the Minister understand that does not mean that a soldier will necessarily stay his arguments about making decisions based purely on in Scotland. defence would have more credibility in Scotland if the 71WH Ministry of Defence (Statistics)20 JULY 2010 Ministry of Defence (Statistics) 72WH
[Thomas Docherty] some low-priority outputs, and one output deemed to have lower priority was the estimate of defence expenditure previous Conservative Government had not taken the by region, and the employment dependent on that Trident contract away from Rosyth and sent it to expenditure. That decision was made two or three years Devonport? That was not in the interests of the MOD ago and I was not party to it, although I understand the or the taxpayer; it was about political chicanery. logic behind the decision. By all accounts, the figures were difficult to produce and resource-intensive to maintain. Nick Harvey: I listened with interest to the opening They relied on analytical tables produced by the Office speech from the hon. Member for Moray. His thesis for National Statistics, which have not been updated seemed to be that the 13 years of the previous Labour since 1995. As I explained, that did not support the Government had—according to the construct in his MOD’S decision making. mind and his ideas about the fair divvying out of jobs I have looked into how much it would cost to reintroduce and investment—counted against Scotland’s interests. the estimates, and I am told that reproducing the ONS It is not my role or responsibility to defend the previous tables would cost in the region of £150,000. Every three Conservative Government or any decision that they years or so, another £100,000 would have to be spent made. However, if the previous Government did what updating the underlying data. Additional statistical staff the hon. Gentleman alleges, one presumes that they did would have to be employed to perform regular updates it according to their best calculation of how to act in the at a cost of about £50,000 a year. As much as I respect interests of UK defence. One might not necessarily the hon. Gentleman, I agree with my predecessors that agree with each and every decision that the Government one struggles to justify that expenditure as being in the took, but they took those decisions from that perspective. interests of United Kingdom defence. The Ministry of Defence’s responsibility is the defence of the realm. Other Departments have responsibility for The hon. Gentleman challenged me about the exchange stimulating economic growth in different parts of the that we had on the Floor of the House. I have already country.If hon. Members wish to form cross-governmental apologised to him unreservedly, and I will do so again policies, they are welcome to do so, but that is not the today.I raised a false hope and expectation that production purpose and locus of the Ministry of Defence. Our role of the figures could recommence. I understood that he is to secure the defence of the realm and to ensure that was asking me to stop suppressing some information our armed forces are properly supported and equipped held by the Ministry, and I agreed to his request on that to carry out that function. There would be no sensible basis. Had he explained in large letters that he wanted alternative way to organise our defences. Any alteration to recompile figures that had ceased to be complied two to that general approach would be a function of industrial or three years ago, I would have looked into the issue policy. more seriously before replying. My impression was that the information was still held and that the previous I make no apologies for differing with the hon. Government had chosen, for political reasons, to suppress Gentleman on that matter. We do not allocate money it. I turned to the Secretary of State for Defence and on a regional basis and it should be clear why the MOD asked what he thought about it, and he replied, “He can stopped producing estimates of its regional expenditure have whatever we’ve got.” The hon. Gentleman can two or three years ago. Quite simply, the estimates did have whatever we have got, but we do not have what he not add anything to the decision-making process, given asks for. It would cost a lot of money to get it again. that that process was founded, fairly and squarely, on defence considerations. In conclusion, it would be a mistake to believe that we are singling out Scotland—I know that the hon. The decision passed me by at the time—I make no Gentleman feels that we are, but we are not. We are bones about that. However, I can see no sinister motive, ceasing to produce such figures across the board. I cover up or scramble to hide uncomfortable truths. The would be interested to know whether he can point to hon. Gentleman presents his concern as if it is part of any other central Government Department that goes to some preconceived plot, but it seems from the time scale a lot of cost and expense to break figures down on a that the MOD had stopped gathering those statistics regional basis in that fashion. We cannot find any before it conceded the principle of a strategic defence comparator in the ways that other Departments spend review. The idea that one action went hand in glove with money on UK-wide projects, but if the hon. Gentleman the other to mask the impact of the strategic defence can point to one, I will have another look. This debate review is far-fetched in the extreme. Let me return to my should not be about competition between different parts point: every pound counts. I readily acknowledge that of the UK. As far as we are concerned, it is about the those estimates may have been helpful to the hon. security of the nation. We must spend our money on Gentleman in pursuing a political agenda, but they that basis, not on compiling the figures that the hon. were not helpful to the Ministry of Defence in furthering Gentleman asks for. decisions that had to be based on defence considerations. The previous Administration drove down the cost of MOD head office by about 25%, which meant that the 2pm number of analytical staff in head office was reduced Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order by a similar proportion. That was achieved by cutting No. 10(11)). 7WS Written Ministerial Statements20 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS Written Ministerial TREASURY Statements Office of Tax Simplification
Tuesday 20 July 2010 The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): The independent Office of Tax Simplification has been established today to provide advice to the Chancellor on delivering a simpler tax system. Michael Jack and John Whiting have been appointed as the interim chair and tax director to lead the office for the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS first year.
“A Strategy for Sustainable Growth” CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Sport (Priorities) Skills (Vince Cable): Balanced and sustainable economic growth can only be driven by business and enterprise. Business in the UK cannot prosper while the risk of a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, debt crisis hangs over the economy. This Government Olympics, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson): Iam have therefore rightly put decisive action on the fiscal announcing today the coalition Government’s three deficit at the centre of its agenda. Equally though, it is immediate priorities for sport. These are, in order: first, vital we recognise strong and continuing growth is a key strongly to support England’s bid to host the FIFA route to getting this country back on track, including 2018 World cup; secondly, to deliver the London 2012 paying down our debts. Today I am publishing “A Olympic and Paralympic games on time and on budget; Strategy for Sustainable Growth”, which sets out some and thirdly, on the back of a successful games, to secure of the challenges and choices we face moving forward. a mass participation legacy for sport. There are three key planks of our strategy This Government see that legacy for sport comprising five key policy components: promoting the efficient operation of markets to support growth; 1. In financial terms, we will restore sport’s share of national lottery funding to 20%. A public consultation has already smarter public and private investment in the economy, including started and this Government hope to lay any resulting creating a highly skilled workforce; and parliamentary legislation in the autumn. encouraging entrepreneurialism and individual engagement 2. We are committed to ensuring that sport has an efficient, in the economy to support growth. modern delivery structure. So, while maintaining their current Despite the constrained fiscal environment, we believe roles and responsibilities, we will therefore push ahead with there are good reasons to be optimistic that we can plans to bring together UK Sport, Sport England and the achieve balanced and sustainable growth. It is Government’s Youth Sport Trust under one roof so that they can work role to provide the vision and strong leadership necessary better together for the long-term benefit of sport. to make it happen. 3. In the elite and high performance area, we want to use the bid for the FIFA 2018 World cup to enshrine, across primary As set out in our strategy, a more sustainable and legislation, what sporting governing bodies can expect from balanced model of growth will be one that develops our Government when bidding to their international federations exports, enables business to grow, spreads jobs and for the right to host world-class events. opportunities across regions, protects and builds on 4. In school sport, we want to have a renewed drive on Britain’s strengths, and positions us to prosper through competition. We will therefore introduce a school sport the transition to a greener economy. Government must Olympic-style competition that will build on the good work ensure there is stability, certainty and fairness in the already done by the UK School Games, while providing a business environment which will encourage private sector stimulus and focus for competitive sport among schools at investment and entrepreneurialism. local level. 5. On the community sport and mass-participation side, we We also need to recognise and understand how can confirm that, using the extra money we expect to flow Government policy impacts on business—and where we through to sport from the lottery reforms, Sport England can get rid of unnecessary barriers to growth. Our will take the lead responsibility for delivering the participation deregulation agenda is an important part of this. legacy from the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. This gives Sport England two clear aims, delivering Government must also ensure that when they use on their whole sport plans and driving a mass-participation public money they elicit the greatest possible economic sport legacy from the games and subsequent world-class returns. We need to make more use of our scientific and events. Plans are being worked-up at the moment and we will research excellence so that innovation can drive long-term make a further announcement in the autumn. growth and change, and we need to ensure we have the In addition, I am announcing today that I have asked skill and infrastructure needed to meet new challenges the Central Council of Physical Recreation (CCPR), and make the most of the opportunities available. the alliance of National Governing Bodies of Sport, to Copies of “A Strategy for Sustainable Growth” have undertake a review on behalf of the Department. This been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses, and are will look at whether the amount of money that governing available on the BIS website. bodies agree to re-invest in their sport’s grassroots, 9WS Written Ministerial Statements20 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS including in school and club programmes for young available pool. In the meantime an interim chief executive people, under the CCPR voluntary code relating to the has been appointed and I will make an announcement broadcasting of major sporting events, can be raised shortly on this. The interim chief operating officer and from the existing 5% minimum to 30% or one third. interim finance director appointments are due to end shortly. This gives the new chief executive the opportunity to build a leadership team to deal with the new challenges. I will work with the RPA management team to deliver ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the standard of services our customers deserve. The key challenge for the agency is to deliver a better quality of service, while reducing the operating costs so Rural Payments Agency that both farmers and taxpayers are getting a better deal. It is also to build a strong organisation that is ready to deal with the changes that are likely to come The Minister of State, Department for Environment, with the reform of the common agricultural policy. My Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Rural priorities for action are: Payments Agency (RPA) delivers £2.3 billion of common agricultural policy payments each year to the businesses Delivering improvements to customer experience through improving the accuracy of the agency’s information, while and organisations which produce our food and maintain maintaining an acceptable speed of payments. our rural economy, cultural heritage and environmental Ensuring that the agency is focused on improving value for landscapes. Farmers applying for the single payment money, aggressively pursuing efficiencies while balancing the scheme payments from the Rural Payments Agency need to provide a good service to farmers. have experienced a turbulent few years. They deserve a Ensuring that the agency becomes a more efficient operation, better quality of service. getting the basics like financial controls and accounts right. I am today publishing an independent review of Making essential preparations for the new schemes which RPA, completed by David Lane working with Deloitte, are likely to be introduced after the 2013 common agricultural PWC and Gartner, and the Government response to it. policy reform negotiations. Copies of the executive summary have been placed in In the current financial climate, RPA will need to the Libraries of both Houses. The related reports are look radically at its operations and drive for efficiencies. available on the DEFRA website. Following the principle that Government should only The review was commissioned by DEFRA in September do those things which only Government can do, we are 2009 and gives an evidenced view of RPA’s current state examining how parts of the DEFRA network’s assets as well as preparations for the EU-wide common could be marketed or be run better through other agricultural policy negotiations, expected to conclude partners, while protecting key DEFRA outcomes. In in 2013. The review’s key findings are that: keeping with this principle, the review identified a number RPA’s finance function and controls need to be strengthened, of options including outsourcing parts of or all of and that it was particularly concerning that the agency RPA’s operations. These options will be evaluated and management could not form a view on the value of the debts considered by my RPA oversight board. There will need that were on RPA’s accounts; to be prioritisation between those investments which we there are significant opportunities to provide a better quality can make, and focusing attention on those areas which of customer service and deliver efficiencies through improvements will have the greatest impact. in the operational processes; I thank the review team for this report. I will be that a significant opportunity exists in developing new IT working with the oversight board, RPA staff, customers systems for post 2013, learning from the rushed implementation and Members of Parliament to ensure that all of the in 2005; recommendations are carefully considered and action is there was a lack of appropriate governance and oversight taken. I will update the House on progress at appropriate from within RPA’s leadership and DEFRA; and times. there are considerable gaps in the organisation’s controls and leadership capability. Since the well-publicised problems in implementing the single payment scheme in 2005-06, RPA has made HEALTH significant improvements, particularly in the speed of making payments to customers. This has been achieved against a backdrop of a poorly specified IT system, Commission on the Funding of Care and Support which constrained the ability of staff to get the job done, and reducing staff numbers. However, there is significantly more to be done. The administrative cost The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): per payment is too high and where there are problems, it I have today placed in the Library the terms of reference takes too long for them to be resolved. for the Commission on the Funding of Care and Support. I will not allow this state of affairs to continue. We Copies are available to hon. Members in the Vote are moving into a new and challenging phase for RPA Office. and the review highlights how important it is that RPA I am also pleased to announce to the House that has the right capability in place to lead the organisation Andrew Dilnot will be chairing the commission. There through this period and the right degree of oversight will be two additional Commissioners, Dame Jo Williams from DEFRA. I will personally drive forward progress and Lord Norman Warner. The commission will also by chairing a new oversight board. As announced last draw on the expertise of two expert independent panels, week, the chief executive is leaving at the end of July one comprising academics and the other experts drawn and we will seek a new chief executive from the widest from the financial services industry. 11WS Written Ministerial Statements20 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS
Urgent reform of the social care system is needed and Section 7 of the Act creates a new offence which can the Government have made clear their commitment and be committed by commercial organisations which fail determination to reach a fair and enduring settlement to prevent bribery committed for their benefit. However, for the system for generations to come. We want a it is a defence for an organisation to prove it had sustainable adult social care system that gives people adequate procedures in place to prevent bribery being the support and freedom to lead the life they choose, committed on its behalf. Section 9 establishes a duty on with dignity. the Secretary of State to publish guidance about procedures This announcement follows on from the commitment which commercial organisations can put in place to set out in the coalition agreement to— prevent bribery. We believe it is important that the “establish a commission on long-term care, to report within a guidance to be issued takes account of the views of year. The commission will consider a range of ideas, including those with an interest in this area, including both business both a voluntary insurance scheme to protect the assets of those and non-governmental organisations. We also consider who go into residential care, and a partnership scheme as proposed it vital that the timing of the publication of the guidance by Derek Wanless”. allows for an adequate period of familiarisation before It is my intention to publish a White Paper next year, the commencement of the Act. which will bring together the conclusions of the commission, We therefore propose to conduct a public consultation with the work being led by the Law Commission on exercise on the form and content of guidance to be creating a single modern statute for social care, and the issued under section 9 of the Act beginning in late Government’s vision for social care. This will be followed summer with a view to publishing guidance early in the with legislation to establish a sustainable legal and new year in preparation for commencement of the Act financial framework for adult social care in this Parliament. in the spring of 2011.
HOME DEPARTMENT PRIME MINISTER
Serious Organised Crime Agency (Annual Report) Machinery of Government Changes
The Minister for Police (Nick Herbert): The annual The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Three report of the Serious Organised Crime Agency for Machinery of Government changes are being announced 2009-10 is being published and laid before Parliament today affecting the responsibilities of the Food Standards today. As required by the Serious Organised Crime and Agency in England; responsibility for Directgov; and Police Act 2005, the report includes an assessment of responsibility for the Licensing Act 2003. Legislation to the extent to which the annual plan for 2009-10 has give full effect to some of these changes will be brought been carried out. Copies of the report are available in forward in due course. the Vote Office. Food Standards Agency in England The report covers the financial year immediately The Government recognise the important role of the preceding the general election. We set out our plans for Food Standards Agency in England, which will continue policing in our coalition agreement and we will review to be responsible for food safety. The Food Standards SOCA alongside our review of the wider policing landscape. Agency will remain a non-ministerial department reporting to Parliament through Health Ministers. In England, nutrition policy will become a responsibility of the Secretary of State for Health. Food labelling and JUSTICE food composition policy, where not related to food safety, will become a responsibility of the Secretary of Bribery Act State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Directgov Responsibility for Directgov will transfer from the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to the Minister (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Bribery Act 2010 creates a for the Cabinet Office. new set of offences that should equip prosecutors and The Licensing Act 2003 the courts with the tools they require to ensure that all forms of bribery, at home and abroad, are met with an Responsibility for the Licensing Act 2003, except in effective criminal justice response. As I stated in my relation to regulated entertainment, will transfer from statement of the 15 June following my appointment as the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and international anti-corruption champion, effective Sport to the Home Secretary. implementation of the Act, which demonstrates cross-party Further details of these changes, and other recent commitment to the fight against bribery, is a coalition significant changes, will be published in due course and priority. copies will be placed in the House Libraries.
173W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 174W
Written Answers to Number of staff
2008 50 Questions 2009 34 2010 46 Tuesday 20 July 2010 The figures for 2010 also include members of staff in the Attorney-General’s Office who attended the event. Records on attendance by staff in the Attorney-General’s Office are not held for previous years and could be ATTORNEY-GENERAL provided only at a disproportionate cost. Departmental Billing The Department does not hold information relating to the number of hours taken up attending Civil Service Mr Anderson: To ask the Attorney-General what Live and the cost of attendance. information he holds on the time taken by contractors The National Fraud Authority and HMCPSI have employed by the Law Officers’ Departments to pay the not identified any employees who attended Civil Service invoices of their sub-contractors under prompt Live in 2008, 2009 or 2010. payment arrangements; and if he will make a statement. [9261] WALES The Attorney-General: Like other Government offices the Law Officers’ Departments follow the principles of the Departmental Civil Servants Prompt Payment Code, but no records are maintained on the time taken by contractors to pay sub-contractors. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Such information could be provided only at a Wales how many employees of her Department disproportionate cost. attended Civil Service Live in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; and what estimate she has made of the (i) Departmental Civil Servants employee working hours taken up by and (ii) cost to her Department of such attendance in each such year. Graham Evans: To ask the Attorney-General how [9058] many employees of the Law Officers’ Departments attended Civil Service Live in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and Mr David Jones: No employees attended the Civil (c) 2010; and what estimate he has made of the (i) Service Live events in any of the three years listed. employee working hours taken up by and (ii) cost to the Law Officers’ Departments of such attendance in each such year. [9041] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Attorney-General: The following table details the Birds: Licensing number of Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) staff who attended Civil Service Live, and an estimate of working Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for hours on the basis of a 7:24 working day: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many people in England have (a) applied for and (b) been Number of working Number of staff hours granted (i) in full and (ii) in part a licence to control herring gulls and greater black-backed gulls since those 2008 63 456 species were removed from general licences; what the 2009 53 384 reasons were for each such application; and how many 2010 15 109 birds of each species (A) have been allowed to be culled and (B) have been culled under such licences. [9307] It is not possible to provide a reliable estimate of the cost for each year as the identity of each of the members Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 July 2010]: Herring of staff that attended Civil Service Live is not available. gulls and greater black-backed gulls were removed from 14 members of SFO staff attended Civil Service Live some English general licences on 1 January 2010, as a 2010. 13 members spent half a day at the conference result of their declining conservation status. The following with one further employee attending for three days. table gives statistics regarding applications and individual These attendances were undertaken as part of their licences for these two species from 1 January 2010 to professional duties and came at no extra cost to the 14 July 2010. taxpayer. There are no records of Serious Fraud Office Natural England records full details of the licences employees attending in 2008 or in 2009. that are issued rather than all the activities applied for, According to records the approximate number of so the licences may have granted the application in full Treasury Solicitor’s Department staff who booked to or in part. Information on the numbers of birds killed attend Civil Service Live for one day or a part of one under these licences will be available when the licences day was: expire.
Licences Number Applications received Granted Purpose/reason Action permitted issued licensed
Herring gull 155 21 Health and safety Shooting 17 1,619 175W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 176W
Licences Number Applications received Granted Purpose/reason Action permitted issued licensed
Cage trapping 4 216 98 Conservation Shooting 86 2,380 Egg oiling 0 0 Nest/egg destruction/ 10 95 relocation Trap (net and kill) 2 35 1 Preventing serious Shooting 1 30 damage 120 Total 120 4,375
Great black-backed 110 8 Health and safety Shooting 4 370 gull Egg oiling 1 150 Nest/egg destruction 3 125 84 Conservation Shooting 78 1,155 Egg oiling 0 0 Nest/egg destruction/ 532 relocation Trap (net and kill) 1 2 92 Total 92 1,834
Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for The analysis of 2009 discards data is not yet complete. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much it has We are therefore unable to provide an estimate of how cost to administer the individual licensing many fish were discarded in pursuit of EU quotas in arrangements for the culling of herring gulls and 2009. However, in 2008 around 440,000 tonnes of quota greater black-backed gulls since these gulls were stocks were landed by UK vessels. These were caught in removed from English general licences for the control a wide range of different areas and fisheries, many of of pest birds. [9308] which were not sampled by scientific observers. Estimates of discards for 2008 are available for the following Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 July 2010]: Herring fisheries: gulls and greater black-backed gulls were removed from Fleet some English general licences on 1 January 2010, as a English and Welsh vessels over 10 metres in length. result of their declining conservation status. Areas Natural England estimates the cost of processing North sea (ICES area IV), and waters to the south and west of individual licence applications for these species from England and Wales (ICES area VII). 1 January 2010 to 14 July 2010 to be £57,000. Species This includes set-up costs; future costs will be Demersal quota species (cod, haddock, plaice, sole, anglerfish substantially less. These costs are partly off-set by the etc.) addition of two species of parakeet and two species of goose to general licences. Estimated 2008 catches 37,000t - 27,600t were landed and 9,400t discarded. Fleet Fisheries: Quotas Scottish vessels over 10 metres in length. Areas Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for North sea (ICES area IV), and west of Scotland (ICES Division Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many fish VIa). were discarded for the purpose of meeting EU quotas Species in 2009. [9331] Cod, haddock, whiting and saithe. Richard Benyon: UK fisheries laboratories send observers Estimated 2008 catches to sea to record the quantity of fish discarded and 91,700t - 56,600t were landed and 35,100t discarded. retained by fishing vessels. This sampling is intended to Fleet provide estimates of discards of the main commercial species, but at present is not representative of all UK UK vessels fishing for pelagic species. fisheries. It is also only possible to sample a proportion Areas of the vessels participating in any fishery.As a consequence, All areas. estimates of total discards are subject to uncertainty Species and the resolution of the data does not usually allow us Mackerel, horse mackerel, herring, sprat, blue whiting. to differentiate between the specific reasons for discards (e.g. over-quota, under legal minimum landing size or Estimated 2008 catches high-graded). 203,200t - 198,300t were landed and 4,900t discarded. 177W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 178W
In total these fisheries are estimated to have caught Richard Benyon: I have received several representations around 332,000t of the relevant species in 2008, of from local people, and am aware that the Marine which 283,000t was landed and 49,000t were discarded. Management Organisation (MMO) has held a meeting with local representatives to listen to their concerns Hill Farming about the Rame Head disposal site. In order to ensure that these concerns are addressed, Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for I have therefore asked the MMO to re-examine the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Rame Head case by commissioning an independent applications were received for assistance under the hill review of evidence from CEFAS, and local sources. This will enable us to assess whether the original conditions, farm allowance scheme in 2009. [9341] under which licences were granted, remain valid and environmental effects are tolerable. Mr Paice: The total number of claims received for the hill farm allowance payment for 2009 was 8,213. Of This process will be personally overseen by the chair these, 7,023 claims were eligible with payments totalling of the MMO, and the MMO’s new chief scientific £23.9 million. adviser. I will write to my hon. Friend with further details once the terms of reference for the review have been finalised. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Peat applications have been received for the Upland Entry Level Scheme. [9361] Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she Mr Paice [holding answer 19 July 2010]: As of 1 July, plans to continue to (a) phase out the use of peat by over 2,000 applications had been received for Uplands 2020 and (b) reduce the use of peat by 90 per cent. by Entry Level Stewardship (ELS), and a total of 1,888 2010. [9038] agreements were able to be given this earliest start date. Richard Benyon: We are currently considering our Under Uplands ELS, 103,000 hectares of land were approach to a new policy to reduce the horticultural use covered, and a further 163,168 hectares of land under of peat in growing media, including future targets for its combined Uplands ELS/Higher Level Stewardship. reduction. The most recent data for peat sales throughout 2009 will be published shortly, and will feed into the Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for development of future policy. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in respect of what area of land in England hill farm allowance payments were made in 2009. [9362] NORTHERN IRELAND Mr Paice [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The hill Departmental Billing farm allowance (HFA) was a Less Favoured Area measure under the Rural Development Programme for England Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for and was replaced this year by Uplands Entry Level Northern Ireland what information his Department Stewardship. HFA payments in 2009 totalled £23.9 million holds on the time taken by contractors employed by it in respect of just over 968,000 hectares of land within to pay the invoices of their sub-contractors under the Severely Disadvantaged Area (SDA). prompt payment arrangements; and if he will make a statement. [9244] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paterson: The Department does not hold this Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what area of information. land is eligible for applications for Uplands Entry Level In line with the recent Budget announcement, the Scheme payments. [9363] Department is including a clause in all new contracts awarded with suppliers to ensure that suppliers pay Mr Paice [holding answer 19 July 2010]: Uplands their sub-contractors within 30 days. The Department farmers managing land in Severely Disadvantaged Areas will also be encouraging its suppliers to pay faster than (SDA) of England are eligible for applications under 30 days where the Department itself is paying in 10 days the Uplands Entry Level Stewardship (ELS). In total, or fewer. this covers nearly 1.3 million hectares of land. However some of this land is currently managed under existing Countryside Stewardship Scheme or Environmentally SCOTLAND Sensitive Areas agreements, and will become eligible for Uplands ELS when these agreements expire between Broadband: Scotland 2011-14. Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Marine Disposal: Rame Head South Scotland what steps the Government plans to take to support access to high-speed broadband in Scotland. [9155] Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Michael Moore: As stated in the Coalition’s joint representations she has received on the location of programme for government, we will seek to introduce marine disposal site PLO31 at Rame Head South; and superfast broadband in remote areas at the same time if she will make a statement. [9336] as in more populated areas. On 8 June, the Secretary of 179W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 180W
State for Culture, the Olympics, Media and Sport set 28 June to 2 July. We have had no formal discussions on out the Government’s plans for ensuring the UK has whether to loan or transfer a package of counter-improvised the best superfast broadband network in Europe by the explosive device (C-IED) measures to our NATO allies. end of the Parliament. We have effective mechanisms in place to share C-IED These plans include enabling access to existing information with our allies, and this is regularly reviewed. infrastructure to reduce the cost of deployment. A discussion document on how best to do this, was launched Armed Forces: Housing on 15 July. Further, the Secretary of State has proposed three market testing projects for superfast broadband in rural areas, to be paid for with money left over from the Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Digital TV Switchover Help Scheme. The venues for Defence what the highest amount paid by service these projects are currently under consideration. personnel for (a) service family and (b) single living service accommodation was in the last 12 months. Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers [9627]
Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The Scotland how much has been paid in reimbursable highest service family accommodation charge is for expenses to special advisers in his Department in type 1 grade 1 furnished accommodation at £25.15 per respect of (a) travel, (b) accommodation and (c) day plus a contribution in lieu of council tax (CILCOT) telephone calls since 6 May 2010. [10138] charge of £5.65 per day. The highest single service living accommodation charge is for senior officer grade 1 Michael Moore: The Scotland Office has paid £17 in accommodation at £6.05 per day plus CILCOT of reimbursable expenses to special advisers in respect of £0.32 per day. travel since 6 May 2010. Similarly, £482 has been paid in respect of accommodation. No reimbursable expenses Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for have been paid to special advisers in respect of telephone Defence what the total monetary value was of rent calls since 6 May 2010. subsidies provided for service accommodation in the last 12 months. [9628] Departmental Press: Subscriptions Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 July 2010]: While a Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for level of abatement is given to reflect the disadvantages Scotland to what newspapers and periodicals his of living in service accommodation is applied to Department subscribes; and at what cost in the last accommodation charges of service personnel, this is 12 months. [10137] matter of judgement for the independent Armed Forces’ Michael Moore: The Scotland Office currently subscribes Pay Review Body which is responsible for providing to the following papers and periodicals: advice to the Government on the remuneration and charges for service personnel. Courier Daily Express Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Daily Mail Defence what the cost to the public purse of (a) Daily Record repairs, (b) water and sewage rates and (c) council tax Daily Telegraph in respect of service accommodation was in the last Financial Times 12 months. [9629] Herald Press & Journal Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The Scotsman cost in financial year 2009-10 of repairing and maintaining Sun service family accommodation (SFA), excluding major Times. upgrade projects, other new works or the replacement Our estimated cost for the year is £4,090. of carpets, was £124.1 million. SFA occupancy charges for service personnel include an element to cover the costs of water and sewage rates, so there is effectively no cost to the public purse. Occupants DEFENCE also pay contributions in lieu of council tax to cover the Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations cost to the Department of paying council tax. Information relating to single living accommodation Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for is not held centrally and could be provided only at Defence whether he (a) has had and (b) plans to have disproportionate cost. discussions with the US administration on an offer to loan or transfer to NATO allies a package of Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for counter-improvised explosive devices measures, Defence when he expects to reply to the Royal British including detection equipment; and if he will make a Legion’s request to publish details of the proposed statement. [5272] upgrade of armed forces accommodation. [9647]
Dr Fox: I have discussed the seriousness of the threat Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 July 2010]: As part NATO troops face from improvised explosive devices in of the Strategic Defence and Security Review we will Afghanistan with my US counterpart on a number of look at whether there is scope to refurbish armed forces occasions, including during my recent visit to the US, accommodation from efficiencies within the MOD. 181W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 182W
Armed Forces: Mental Health Services Ex-Servicemen
Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Defence what plans his Department has to improve for Defence what steps he plans to take to increase the support for those in the armed forces at risk of level of support available to veterans provided by his post-traumatic stress. [9353] Department. [8636] Mr Robathan [holding answer 15 July 2010]: The Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The Government provide a comprehensive programme of Ministry of Defence has a wide range of measures in support for ex-service personnel. This includes: an excellent place to manage the mental health of our personnel. In resettlement package for service personnel returning to addition, the current Strategic Defence and Security civilian life; high quality pension and compensation Review will include consideration of possible enhancements schemes; measures to meet veterans’ health and welfare to medical care for armed forces personnel, including needs. mental health care. The Prime Minister has also asked The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has recently put in Dr Andrew Murrison MP to carry out a study into the place a number of initiatives to improve the support health of both serving and ex-service personnel to see given to veterans, including: what more can be done to assess and meet these needs; a The launch of a national point of contact to ensure that focus of this study will be mental health. service personnel, families and veterans are able to access the Army: Radio help and support available from the MOD, from statutory providers and from the voluntary and charitable sector facilitating the delivery of services across all sectors by raising awareness Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for of entitlement at all levels. Defence how many army radios have been reported (a) Working with the Department for Communities and Local lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months. Government and the devolved Administrations to improve the [8863] access of early service leavers (ie those that have served less than four years) to social housing and temporary accommodation. Nick Harvey: This information is not held centrally Working with a range of partners across Government, the and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Prison Service, the devolved Administrations, and with voluntary and charitable sector organisations to better serve veterans in Chiefs of Staff: Expenses prison. The Ex-Service Offenders Working Group promotes the support available to veterans both before and after their Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for release. MOD will continue to work with these agencies to help Defence whether he plans to publish the expenses of reduce the risk of re-offending amongst the ex-service community. senior members of the armed forces on a quarterly Changes to the legislation governing the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme (AFCS) following the review led by basis; and if he will make a statement. [9575] Admiral the Lord Boyce and the setting up of an independent medical expert body to advise on compensation on particular Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 July 2010]: Work illnesses and injuries are being implemented. All legislative on the first period to be published, the quarter from changes will take place by February 2011. January to March this year, is under way and the The Prime Minister has asked Dr Andrew Murrison MP to information will be published as soon as we can be sure conduct an independent study into the provision of MOD and that it is complete and accurate. NHS support and services to the armed forces and ex-service personnel and to make recommendations particularly in the Defence Equipment area of mental health. Iraq and Afghanistan: Members Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) whether the £19 million funding for Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for dismounted close combat equipment announced by his Defence in what circumstances hon. Members who Department on 7 July 2010 will provide equipment have visited (a) Iraq and (b) Afghanistan on official additional to that announced prior to 6 May 2010; business are eligible to receive operational service [8642] medals. [9984] (2) whether the £158 million funding for base equipment announced by his Department on 7 July Mr Robathan: Members of Parliament who visit 2010 will provide equipment additional to that operational theatres do not meet the qualifying criteria announced prior to 6 May 2010; and what proportion for the campaign medal and as a consequence are not of the funding will be allocated to (a) Bowman tactical eligible and do not receive any such medal. radios and (b) patrol satellite systems. [8643] A Member of Parliament would only qualify for an official campaign medal if he or she was a member of Peter Luff: The funding of up to £189 million announced the reserve forces and officially mobilised to an operational on 7 July will provide additional equipment for UK theatre. There are Members of the House who are troops in support of operations in Afghanistan, all of Reservists and as such have been mobilised to operational which is over and above any announcements made prior theatres. to 6 May 2010. Subject to HM Treasury approval, this Military Bases will include up to £19 million for dismounted close combat equipment, up to £158 million for base protection Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for equipment, including communications and surveillance Defence how many permanent UK military equipment, of which approximately £35 million will be headquarters there are; where each is located; who has allocated to Bowman tactical radios and £0.9 million to command at each such headquarters; and what the patrol satellite communications. staff is of each. [8815] 183W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 184W
Mr Robathan [holding answer 15 July 2010]: There UK. Details of the location, who has command and are five permanent military headquarters (HQ) in the staff employed at each are shown in the following table:
Of which: Number of Military HQ Location Commanded by staff Military Civilian
Ministry of Defence (MOD)— MOD Main Building London Secretary of State for Defence 2,920 1,070 1,850 Head Office Navy—HQ Navy Command Portsmouth Commander in Chief Fleet 1,420 863 557 Army—HQ Land Forces Andover Commander in Chief Land Forces 2,077 1,075 1,002 RAF—HQ Air Command High Wycombe Commander in Chief Air 2,099 1,476 623 Permanent Joint Northwood Chief of Joint Operations 593 476 117 HQ—Operations Joint HQ
Type 45 Destroyers Departmental Lighting
Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what reports he has received of the outcomes Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for of the recent test firing of Type 45 missile systems; and Transport how much (a) his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies and non- if he will make a statement. [8838] departmental public bodies spent on light bulbs in each Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I year since 1997. [7625] gave him on 19 July 2010, Official Report, columns 3-4W. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport was formed in 2002 and therefore no records exist for the Department prior to that date. TRANSPORT The majority of the Department does not record the A338 purchase of light bulbs as a separate category as they are an integral part of facilities management or mechanical Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for and electrical contracts. Transport what recent representations he has received on the roadworks on the A338 between Ringwood and The following table shows the known expenditure on Bournemouth. [10126] light bulbs for those parts of the Department who record those costs separately. The NDPB figure includes Mike Penning: The Department has received no Northern Lighthouse Board and Trinity House Lighthouse representations on the mentioned scheme. service.
Expenditure on light bulbs (£) Organisation 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10
Central Department n/a n/a n/a 67 64 513 35 10 Executive agencies 521 n/a n/a 75 n/a 144 . 298 699 NDPBs 13,009 11,218 12,656 3,956 6,127 8,143 13,044 10,306
Driving: Training closed on 30 June 2010 and the Government will publish their response following a full analysis of the consultation responses. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport for what reasons his Department plans to The definition of eco-driving training used in the introduce mandatory eco-driving training as part of consultation document is training that includes some or the driver certificate of professional competence; what all of the following elements: how to improve aerodynamic definition his Department uses of the term eco-driving; performance; how to drive at efficient speeds; fuel efficiency what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of and choice of gear; best practice for acceleration and such a programme; and what estimate he has made of braking; and anticipation of traffic and driving conditions. the cost of the programme to the public purse. [9235] This definition was also subject to consultation. The Department’s preliminary analysis showed that Mike Penning: The Department for Transport has if 90% of large goods vehicle drivers were eco-driving consulted on options for increasing the up-take of eco- trained and continued to drive in that manner, around driving training for large goods vehicle and passenger 3 million tonnes of CO2 and £300 million in fuel costs carrying vehicle drivers. One of the options was to could be saved by the industry over a five year period. make eco-driver training a mandatory part of the driver An initial impact assessment for each of the options certificate of professional competence. The two other was published with the consultation document and options were: (i) to keep the voluntary nature of eco-driving views invited. A further full assessment of the effectiveness training; and (ii) to keep it voluntary and also increase of the option chosen and its cost to Government will be promotion of the benefits of the training. The consultation undertaken once the analysis of responses is complete. 185W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 186W
Electric Vehicles The M1 has recently been widened to four lanes in both directions from junctions 25 to 28. The lanes David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for opened to traffic in May this year completing ahead of Transport what steps are being taken to encourage the the programme schedule. development of the infrastructure needed for electric The information above relates to schemes currently in cars. [9534] construction and ongoing maintenance of the network. Norman Baker: We announced in the coalition agreement, that the Government will mandate a national charging Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for infrastructure for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles. Transport for what reasons two separate sections of We are carefully considering a range of delivery options, contraflow are in operation on the M1 north and south but decisions have yet to be taken. of Toddington services; what consideration was given to carrying out each roadworks project consecutively; Freight and if he will make a statement. [9135]
Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: Two contraflows with a 50 mile per Transport what steps his Department is taking to hour speed limit are currently in operation between M1 encourage a modal shift of freight from road to rail. junctions 10 and 11 and junctions 12 and 13 while work [9881] to repair embankments, build emergency refuge areas and install gantries is ongoing. Mike Penning: The Government currently encourage the transfer of freight from road to rail, where it is As the proposed improvements to junction 11 and practical, economic and environmentally sustainable to junction 12 require the acquisition of land, statutory do so, through two grant schemes to assist with the process has to be followed and therefore work cannot be operating costs where these are higher than for road, carried out on these junctions in advance of completion and to help offset the capital cost of providing freight of that process. Work has subsequently been sequenced handling facilities. so that this does not have a detrimental effect on the overall length of the contract. In June this year the Government decided to maintain the current level of expenditure on rail and water freight The two sections of contraflow between junctions 10 operating grants for 2010-11 and 2011-12. and 13 on the M1 form part of the same scheme and are While I recognise the benefits that grant funding to being delivered as part of the same contract. encourage modal shift from road to rail freight can bring, the current financial climate means that we will Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for have to make difficult spending decisions across Transport when he expects the roadworks north of Government. Decisions on the future of freight grant junction 10 of the M1 to be completed; and if he will schemes will therefore be reached as part of the spending make a statement. [9073] review. Mike Penning: Two contraflows with a 50 mile per M1 hour speed limit are currently in operation between Junctions 10 and 11 and Junctions 12 and 13 on the M1 Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for while work to repair embankments, build emergency Transport when he expects the M1 motorway to be free refuge areas and install gantries is ongoing. of roadworks between junctions 1 and 32; and if he will make a statement. [9113] It is anticipated that the roadworks north of Junction 10 of the M1 will be completed in spring 2013. Mike Penning: Given its usage, age and strategic importance, there will always be a need to undertake Merchant Shipping routine and emergency works on the M1 to keep the motorway in a safe and serviceable condition. Some resurfacing/patching will be carried out over the next Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport two years. These works will be carried out in the majority pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 8 July of cases overnight to keep disruption to a minimum, 2010, Official Report, column 14WS, on Merchant and in most cases delays will be minimal. Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) Regulations, what It is anticipated that the works to the M1 motorway representations he has received on his proposal to between junction 10 and 13 will be completed in spring review the Regulations from (a) harbour authorities, 2013. (b) oil and shipping companies or representative associations, (c) environmental non-governmental The replacement of Catthorpe viaduct at M1 junction organisations and (d) others to date. [8618] 19 started on 12 July 2010 and is due to end in spring 2012. Mike Penning: Since making the announcement on 8 Details of maintenance works will be published in July, I have, to date, received the following representations weekly press bulletins, and on the Highways Agency from: website. (a) Harbour authorities: One. There may also be some additional works required on sections of the M1 motorway this year to finalise and (b) Oil and shipping companies or representative associations: complete technology works between M1 J6a to 10 and None. M1 J25 to 28. Works will be carried out overnight to (c) Environmental non-governmental organisations: None. keep the disruption to the travelling public to a minimum. (d) Others: Two. 187W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 188W
Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties Railways: Theft
Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department takes to ensure Transport if he will take steps to reduce the incidence registered keepers of private cars pay vehicle excise of cable theft close to railway lines in the North East. duty; and if he will make a statement. [8704] [8697]
Mike Penning: A comprehensive package of measures Mrs Villiers: Metal theft is a crime which hits the is in place making vehicle excise duty convenient to pay railway particularly hard and causes levels of disruption but difficult to evade. Registered keepers are sent renewal out of all proportion to the value of the material stolen. reminders to alert them that the vehicle excise duty is That is why the British Transport Police (BTP), as the due and offering a variety of ways to license their national police force for the railway, is in the forefront vehicle. Online and telephone services are used by a of efforts to tackle the problem. large number of customers together with the traditional The British Transport Police led a national day of paper service at the Post Office. action on 14 July bringing together police forces, Network Those who fail to license their vehicles are subject to Rail, the scrap metal industry and others with an interest proportionate enforcement measures ranging from in the subject. The aim was to target both the thieves automated penalties from the vehicle record, through to themselves and the scrap yards where they seek to sell direct enforcement action such as the wheel clamping, stolen material. This is part of a continuing campaign impounding and, ultimately, disposal of the unlicensed to deal with cable and other metal theft, both in the vehicle. The latest national statistics on vehicle excise north-east and across the country as a whole. duty evasion shows that this package of measures has Roads: Nottinghamshire been successful and 99.4% of all revenue payable in 2009 was collected. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what road improvements will take place on Railways: East Anglia the A1 in Nottinghamshire in the next 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [7893] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he plans to take in response to the Mike Penning: Currently there are no road improvements Greater Anglia rail franchise: what passengers want (as opposed to maintenance activity) that will take report produced by Passenger Focus in April 2010; and place on the A1 in Nottinghamshire in the next 12 months. if he will make a statement. [8905] In the longer term, there are two schemes planned on the A1 in Nottinghamshire: Mrs Villiers: We will consult shortly on rail franchising policy and will announce the time frame for responding A1 Elkesley Junction Improvement: In line with other schemes, when it is published. We intend to let the new Greater the public inquiry for this scheme has been deferred until the spending review is concluded. Anglia franchise under the reformed system on which we will be consulting shortly and expect to advertise it A1/B6387 Twyford Bridge Improvements: This scheme is split into two phases with the first phase (slip road improvements) by the end of the year. being developer funded. Evidence from Passenger Focus on passenger priorities will be taken into account when decisions on the franchise Sea Rescue specification and the award of the franchise are made. Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for Railways: Overcrowding Transport how many rescue boats operating in the UK are not operated by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution but have the Maritime and Coastguard Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency as their launching authority. [8873] Transport if he will make an assessment of the merits of putting a legal limit on the number of passengers Mike Penning: Independent lifeboats are rescue boats who can travel in a train carriage. [5603] which are declared facilities according to a specific standard or set criteria as agreed with the MCA. Mrs Villiers: I currently have no plans to assess the merits of putting a legal limit on the number of passengers There are 52 independent lifeboats in the UK that are who can travel in a rail carriage. There is no evidence declared for Search and Rescue (SAR) to the Maritime that a limit is required for safety reasons. A legal limit and Coastguard Agency (MCA). The MCA will request would be difficult to enforce and might require all rail their attendance for search and rescue purposes as part passengers to book in advance or risk not being allowed of its role in the co-ordination of UK SAR activities. to travel. This would be very unpopular with many rail Authority to launch following a request from the MCA users and probably unworkable on commuter sections rests with the operators of the boat concerned. of the railway, where most crowding occurs. Speed Limits: Cameras The scope for future investment in additional rolling stock capacity will depend on decisions that will be Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for made in the spending review. Transport if he will issue guidance to local authorities The forthcoming consultation on rail franchising will and Transport for London on the implementation of also consider ideas for addressing passenger concerns his policy not to fund additional speed cameras; and if regarding crowding levels. he will make a statement. [9087] 189W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 190W
Mike Penning: On 24 June I wrote to all local authorities The Haqqani network is a familial network with its in England and Wales, including Transport for London, leadership based in North Waziristan. It historically setting out the Government’s position on speed cameras. operates within the Zadran tribal areas centred on My letter confirms that central Government will no Paktia, Paktika and Khost provinces. It is reliant on a longer fund new fixed speed cameras and encourage committed group of insurgents which we judge to be in authorities to consider the full range of local road their hundreds, but it also has links to other insurgent safety interventions, including educational and engineering groups. solutions. I want to work with local authorities and the police on ways of making local partners accountable to Afghanistan: Politics and Government local voters for the decisions they take on the location of cameras and the scale of camera operations, and for the financial consequences of those decisions. A copy David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for of the letter has been placed in the Libraries of the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent House. reports he has received on the number of reintegration shura which have taken place in (a) Marjah and (b) Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Helmand Province. [7875] Transport if he will make it his policy to require that his Department is consulted on any proposals to Mr Hague: We are aware of one public reintegration introduce average speed camera checks; and if he will shura in Helmand. On 23 June 2010, the Deputy Governor make a statement. [9202] of Helmand, Abdul Sattar, and Haji Zahir—who was at the time District Governor of Marjah—presided over a Mike Penning: There are no plans to compel authorities shura focused on reintegration. The shura was held at to consult the Department for Transport prior to Forward Operating Base Sher Wali, in northern Marjah. introducing average speed cameras. The use of cameras It is estimated that 80-100 Marjah elders attended. is a matter for highway authorities who are able to use Reintegration messages are delivered frequently by their own resources to fund them if they wish to do so. Afghan authorities throughout Helmand, at more general However, I am keen to improve the transparency of public shura. Reintegration messages are also provided camera operations and will ask authorities to make in a range of other forums, such as at prisoner release data about effectiveness and impact of individual cameras shura and at more general district outreach events. In available to local people. addition, we understand that Afghan officials and bodies Vehicle Operator Services Agency frequently discuss reintegration at internal meetings.
Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for the future of the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Vehicle Operator Services Agency. [8671] has received on the absence of provincial governors from the Kabul Peace Jirga; and if he will make a Mike Penning: The scope for improving value for statement. [7878] money from the Department for Transport and its Agencies is being assessed in the context of the current Mr Hague: The Consultative Peace Jirga in Kabul spending review. was an inclusive event that was attended by a representative cross-section of Afghans. The 1,600 attendees comprised representatives from Parliament, Provincial Councils, Provincial and District Governors, civil society and FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE women’s groups. All Provincial and District Governors Afghanistan: International Assistance were invited, and the Conference was delayed by two days to try and enable those travelling longer distances to attend. We understand that most Provincial Governors David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for were able to attend. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many micro- grants the International Security Assistance Force has As the Prime Minister said in his statement to the made to Afghan citizens who own businesses in the last House on 14 June 2010, Official Report, column 603, two months. [7876] this Government will provide regular updates to the House on the progress we are making in Afghanistan. Mr Hague: The International Security Assistance Force has no allocated funds for ‘micro-grants’. Asia: International Cooperation Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent been made towards setting a date for the trilateral reports he has received on the number of active fighters meeting between the governments of Afghanistan, Iran in the Haqqani network. [7877] and Pakistan; and if he will make a statement. [7686]
Mr Hague: We conduct regular assessments on the Mr Hague: The next trilateral meeting between nature and scale of the insurgency in Afghanistan. This Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan is due to be hosted in includes the use of International Security Assistance Pakistan. The Pakistani Ministry of Foreign Affairs has Force reporting and statistics. not yet announced when this meeting will take place. 191W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 192W
Departmental Billing electing a new UK MEP before the intergovernmental conference on 23 June 2010; and if he will make a Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [8599] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information his Department holds on the time taken by contractors Mr Lidington: The transitionary Protocol concerning employed by it to pay the invoices of their sub- the composition of the European Parliament is a technical contractors under prompt payment arrangements; and change to the Treaty relating to numbers of MEPs. It if he will make a statement. [9253] allows 18 extra MEPs provided for by the Lisbon Treaty to take their seats now rather than in 2014. The UK Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office receives an extra MEP as a result. (FCO) does not capture data covering payments between contractors and sub-contractors. All FCO contracts The Protocol does not determine how, or from which include the following paragraph to ensure that payments UK European parliamentary electoral region, the UK’s are made promptly: additional MEP should be elected; rather that the MEP should be elected using one of the methods set out in “Where the Contractor enters into a sub-contract for the the Protocol. Therefore, no prior consultation of the provision of any part of the Services, the Contractor shall ensure that a term is included in the sub-contract which requires the Electoral Commission was needed. Details of the process Contractor to pay all sums due to the sub-contractor within a to be undertaken to elect the UK’s extra MEP will be specified period, not exceeding 30 days from the date of receipt of announced in due course, and the Electoral Commission a valid invoice as defined by the terms of that sub-contract.” will be consulted fully at the appropriate time, as required English Channel by the relevant legislation. Forced Marriage Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy to oppose any proposals to change the name of the Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign English Channel at the next United Nations and Commonwealth Affairs what recent estimate he Conference on the Standardisation of Geographical has made of the number of forced marriages which Names. [9096] occurred in the UK in 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [8536] Mr Lidington: The Government are not aware of any formal proposals in this regard and would vigorously Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government are clear that oppose any such action. forced marriage is an abuse of human rights, a form of domestic violence and, where minors are involved, child European Parliament abuse. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The very nature of forced marriage means that cases and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written often go unreported. The statistics we do have are based ministerial statement on European Parliament on the work of the Forced Marriage Unit. In calendar Transitionary Protocol of 6 July 2010, Official Report, year 2009 the Unit dealt with 1,682 reports of possible columns 6-7WS, when he expects to announce details forced marriage and, as of the end of June, has dealt of the process to be undertaken to elect the additional with 893 in 2010. This includes cases in the UK and MEP for the UK. [9800] involving British nationals overseas. It is likely that there are many more cases that are not drawn to the Mr Lidington: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Unit’s attention and we will continue to raise awareness officials are consulting colleagues in government on the of the help available. process to be undertaken. The Government will announce the details once this process has been completed. Kashmir
Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment ministerial statement on European Parliament he has made of the prospects for peace in Kashmir; and Transitionary Protocol of 6 July 2010, Official Report, if he will make a statement. [9924] columns 6-7WS, who the British representative was at the intergovernmental conference. [9801] Alistair Burt: We discuss Kashmir with both Indian and Pakistani Government officials regularly, and make Mr Lidington: The Intergovernmental Conference took clear our hope that they can make progress on the issue. place in the margins of the 23 June 2010 meeting of the But the long standing position of the UK is that it is for Committee of Permanent Representatives of EU member India and Pakistan to find a lasting resolution to the states. Therefore, the Government’s representative was situation in Kashmir, one which takes into account the Sir Kim Darroch, the UK’s Permanent Representative wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the UK to to the EU. prescribe a solution or to mediate in finding one. European Parliament Elections Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for ministerial statement of 6 July 2010, Official Report, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent columns 6-7WS, on the European Parliament representations he has made to the government of (a) Transitionary Protocol, whether the Electoral India, (b) Pakistan and (c) Israel to sign the Nuclear Commission was consulted on the arrangements for Non-Proliferation Treaty. [9538] 193W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 194W
Alistair Burt: We continue to call on all three countries working group of the Contact Group on Piracy off the to sign the non-proliferation treaty (NPT). Most recently Coast of Somalia, discussing regional capability the final document agreed at the NPT Review Conference development. in May 2010 called again for India, Pakistan, and Israel to accede to the treaty as non-nuclear-weapon states Western Sahara: Politics and Government and to place all their nuclear materials and facilities under International Atomic Energy Agency safeguards. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Universalisation of the NPT is a long-standing UK and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has EU objective. made recent representations to (a) the UN and (b) the Palestinians: Politics and Government Government of Morocco on a referendum on the future Government of the Western Sahara. [9764] Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has discussed Alistair Burt: Lord Howell discussed the question of with his counterpart in (a) the government of Israel a referendum on the future status of Western Sahara and (b) the Palestinian Authority the evacuation with Ambassador Christopher Ross, the UN Secretary- notices served on members of the Palestinian General’s Personal Envoy for Western Sahara on 22 June Legislative Council; and if he will make a statement. 2010. Following their meeting, Ambassador Ross also [9075] discussed the issue in more detail with Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials. Alistair Burt: We regard East Jerusalem as occupied territory. Its Palestinian population has rights under the Geneva conventions. Forcibly transferring people out of the city for political reasons—however much we may CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT find their views abhorrent—as Israel appears to be Arts Industry trying to do in this case, is illegal. The EU has raised the matter with the Israeli Government and the British Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for ambassador to Tel Aviv has raised this with the Israeli Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what his most Deputy Foreign Minister—Danny Ayalon. recent assessment is of the effects on the arts industry Somalia of the recession. [8789]
Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Vaizey: Our Department monitors the impact of and Commonwealth Affairs what support his the recession across our sectors closely. Department is providing to the government of Mogadishu on (a) the influence of al-Qaeda in While some areas of the arts industry continue to Somalia, (b) the spread of violence in East Africa and perform well—the resilience of London theatre must be praised—other areas, such as private giving, have been (c) Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden. [9733] negatively impacted. Alistair Burt: The Government continue to support We will continue to liaise with the sector and ensure the UN-led Djibouti Peace Process and the political the arts receive appropriate support during this difficult reconciliation efforts of the Transitional Federal time. Government (TFG). We do not provide direct budget support to the TFG. However we provide significant Departmental ICT support to the African Union Mission in Somalia, which continues to play a leading role in maintaining Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for sufficient security to allow the TFG to operate in Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much (a) his Mogadishu. We are actively supporting the ongoing EU Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental training mission to train Somali security forces. public bodies spent on information and Al-Shabaab, the main insurgent group in Somalia, communication technology in each year since 1997. has self declared links to al-Qaeda and is responsible [7332] for numerous terrorist attacks in Somalia and has claimed responsibility for the 11 July 2010 bombings in Uganda. John Penrose: Since 1997 this Department has spent The UK talks regularly to governments in the region the following resource costs on information and about countering Somali terrorism and reducing the communication technology: threat it poses both in Somalia and the wider region. Developing internal peace and stability in Somalia £ will take time given the lack of state structures, but in Financial year IT Telecoms the long term it is the best way to deny terrorists the 2009-10 3,092,657 429,012 space they need to operate. We will continue to work 2008-09 2,979,108 409,388 with international partners and the TFG to prevent 2007-08 2,753,954 491,270 Somalia from being a safe haven for terrorists and to 2006-07 2,791,334 329,721 protect UK citizens from the terrorist threat. Over the 2005-06 2,648,343 526,620 course of 2010 we will look to increase out counter-terrorism 2004-05 2,702,482 464,993 support across the region. 2003-04 2,813,851 455,710 On piracy, the Government regularly engage with the 2002-03 1,884,341 414,913 TFG to discuss piracy in the critical Gulf of Aden trade 2001-02 1,447,426 427,356 artery and wider Indian Ocean. This includes sponsoring 2000-01 1,156,933 592,356 TFG representation at meetings of the UK chaired 195W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 196W
Digital Broadcasting: Radio £ Financial year IT Telecoms Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 1999-2000 1,125,281 304,500 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent 1998-97 1,107,277 383,766 discussions he has had on the (a) financial and (b) 1997-98 741,251 447,765 other effects on local radio stations of the switch off of analogue radio. [8788] Information on the amount spent by the DCMS agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and Mr Vaizey: The Government have no plans to switch could be provided only at disproportionate cost. off analogue radio as FM would be retained for small local commercial and community radio stations. Departmental Manpower The Government have published a Digital Radio Action Plan which sets out a range of considerations Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for before a decision on whether to set a radio switchover Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many staff date can be made. This includes an assessment of the his Department employed on (a) full-time and (b) costs and benefits, to both the industry and consumer, part-time contracts in each year since 1997. [8805] of a digital radio switchover programme.
John Penrose: The information relating to part-time Libraries and full-time staff is set out in the table. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for As at 1 April: (a) Full-time (b) Part-time Total Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what his most 2004 429 35 464 recent estimate is of the average number of people in 2005 480 45 525 each age group who use a local library each month. [8799] 2006 480 41 521 2007 494 33 527 Mr Vaizey: Information related to the percentage of 2008 432 45 477 the population in each age group who use libraries each 2009 418 49 467 year is collated in the DCMS Taking Part Survey. The 2010 429 50 479 survey does not record data on a month by month basis. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is The most recent published data which include a breakdown unable to provide data prior to 2004 as electronic records of age groups are presented in the table: were only held from 2004 onwards. January to December 2009 Age group Percentage
Departmental Official Hospitality 16-24 31.5 25-44 39.3 Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for 45-64 39.5 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much (a) his 67-74 38.8 Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental 75+ 33.4 public bodies spent on hospitality in each year since Total 37.6 1997. [7439] London 2012 Business Network John Penrose: All expenditure on entertainment is incurred in accordance with the principles of Managing Public Money and the Treasury handbook on Regularity Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for and Propriety. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he plans to review the operation of the London 2012 Business Financial year Total (£) Network. [8678] 2009-10 110,024 Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. 2008-09 84,544 The London 2012 Business Network enables a diverse 2007-08 75,850 range of businesses across the UK to access contract 2006-07 72,819 opportunities from the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic 2005-06 70,535 Games and the support they need to compete for them. 2004-05 97,803 More than 6,500 contract opportunities have been made 2003-04 90,007 available through CompeteFor, the electronic brokerage 2002-03 50,948 system for London 2012 Games contracts; 48,000 businesses 2001-02 32,587 have received business support as a result of registering 2000-01 51,667 for the service; and this has been accompanied by an 1999-2000 33,318 extensive programme of business engagement, informing 1998-97 24,497 over 10,000 businesses in a series of events across the 1997-98 15,269.81 UK of the opportunities and how to get involved. I support this valuable work but will continue to look at Information on the amount spent by the DCMS opportunities to ensure we maximize the benefit that agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and businesses throughout the UK obtain from the 2012 could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Olympic and Paralympic Games. 197W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 198W
Public Libraries: Expenditure HOME DEPARTMENT Civil Partnerships Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the he has made of the amount of public funding allocated Home Department if she will bring forward proposals to public libraries in (a) England and (b) Coventry in to amend the law to allow religious music and readings each year since 2005. [9407] at civil weddings and civil partnerships. [9416] Mr Vaizey: The expenditure on library services in (a) Lynne Featherstone: Civil partnership and civil marriage England and (b) Coventry, can be seen in the table: registrations are entirely secular in nature and prohibited Net current expenditure1 on library service by year from taking place on religious premises or containing any religious language, or religious music. £000 Coventry England An amendment made during the passage of the Equality Act 2010 removed the express prohibition on civil 2005-06 5,978 867,115 partnership registrations taking place on religious premises. 2006-07 5,762 889,558 In response to this amendment, the Government committed 2007-08 5,983 908,406 to talking to those with a key interest in this issue about 2008-09 5,427 928,143 what the next stage should be for civil partnerships. 2009-10 5,492 951,170 This will include consideration of whether civil partnerships 1 Net current expenditure is defined here as the costs of staffing, should be allowed to include religious readings, music heating, lighting and cleaning, together with expenditure on goods and symbols. This commitment was made clear in the and services consumed within the year. This expenditure is offset by Government’s published document ‘Working for Lesbian, income from sales, fees and charges and other (non-grant) income. Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Equality’, published on Source: This information was provided by the Communities and Local Government 16 June 2010. Revenue Account (RA) budget returns. We will begin this exercise before the summer In addition, the Museums Libraries and Archives parliamentary recess. Council (MLA) has used DCMS grant in aid to develop, Departmental Official Cars share and promote best practice in libraries and has supported libraries to deliver projects such as Boys into Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Books and Book Ahead which are funded by the Home Department what her estimate is of the mileage Department for Education. Public libraries have also travelled by each Minister in her Department in a benefited from lottery funding and private finance initiative Government car in (a) May and (b) June 2010. [8328] credits which have been invested in individual projects. Lynne Featherstone: Departments are unable to estimate Television: Licensing the mileage travelled by each Minister in a Government car in May and June 2010 because this information is Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for not recorded. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent representations he has received on the television licence Domestic Violence fee. [8786] Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent representations her Mr Vaizey: I am aware of representations on the Department has received on the level of the conviction licence fee made by members of the public in response rates in cases of domestic violence. [8547] to the Government publication ‘The Coalition: our programme for government’. Furthermore, the Department James Brokenshire: No recent representations have regularly receives correspondence on the licence fee. been received on this issue. The proportion of domestic violence prosecutions ending in conviction rose to 72% in Theatres: Young People 2009-10 up from 59.7% in 2005-06.
Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Domestic Violence: Refuges Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what expenditure Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the his Department has incurred on the provision of (a) Home Department if she will meet organisations theatre, (b) opera, (c) musical and (d) film for tickets assisting women subject to domestic abuse who have no to young people in the most recent period for which recourse to public funds to discuss a permanent figures are available. [8779] successor programme to follow her Department’s pilot project on access to refuge accommodation; and if she Mr Vaizey: My Department launched the A Night will make a statement. [8310] Less Ordinary scheme in February 2009 to provide free theatre tickets to young people under 26. The scheme James Brokenshire: A Home Office pilot project for initially cost £2.5 million, with a £100 000 evaluation victims of domestic violence with no recourse to public running alongside. funds commenced in November 2009 and was scheduled In June 2010 we announced that the A Night Less to run to the end of August 2010. On 16 July, the Home Ordinary scheme was to be curtailed following a review Secretary announced an extension to the pilot until the of pilot schemes across government. We expect that end of March 2011 and a commitment to find a long-term £108,000 will be returned to the Department following funding solution to the issue. In identifying a long-term curtailment. solution, we will consult with a range of organisations 199W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 200W assisting this group of victims. The pilot is monitored James Brokenshire: Since I took office, I have had no on a monthly basis and a full evaluation will take place discussions with the Association of Chief Police Officers following completion of the pilot. about low copy number DNA. A number of representations have been received from Immigration Controls MPs and charitable organisations regarding the pilot. Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to publish the terms Home Department (1) what assessment she has made of reference of her Department’s consultation on the of the outcomes to date of the pilot scheme proposed limits on non-EU economic immigration; implemented in December 2009 and extended until which groups and individuals she plans to consult; and August 2010 to provide women not eligible for funding whether the responses received will be made public. under the no public recourse rule with access to a safe [4673] place; [8425] (2) what representations she has received from (a) Mrs May [holding answer 28 June 2010]: On 28 June charitable organisations and bodies and (b) local we launched a 12-week consultation with businesses authorities on the pilot scheme implemented in and other interested sectors on our plans for implementing December 2009 and extended until August 2010 to annual limits on non-EU economic migration. The provide women not eligible for funding under the no consultation document is available on the UK Border public recourse rule with access to a safe place; [8426] Agency website. We will publish a response to the (3) what plans she has for the future of the scheme consultation, including a summary of the responses, in implemented in December 2009 to provide women not due course. At the same time, I commissioned the eligible under the no public recourse rule with access to independent Migration Advisory Committee to advise a safe place. [10084] the Government on the level at which the first annual limit should be set. The Migration Advisory Committee James Brokenshire: A Home Office pilot project for will also consult widely with business and other interested victims of domestic violence with no recourse to public sectors. funds commenced in November 2009 and was scheduled Immigration: Departmental Co-ordination to run to the end of August 2010. On 16 July, the Home Secretary announced an extension to the pilot until the Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the end of March 2011 and a commitment to find a long-term Home Department what discussions she has had with funding solution to the issue. The pilot is monitored on the (a) Secretary of State for Education, (b) Secretary a monthly basis and a full evaluation will take place of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and (c) following completion of the pilot. Minister of State for Universities and Science on the Firearms planned cap on net immigration; and what the outcome of those discussions was. [7085] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs May [holding answer 12 July 2010]: Ihave the Home Department what steps her Department is conducted discussions with colleagues across Government taking to control the availability of guns in England. regarding the Government’s plans for limiting economic [8823] migration from outside the EEA. In particular I discussed the plans with ministerial colleagues at the recent Home James Brokenshire: The Home Office works closely Affairs Cabinet Committee. The outcome of those with the National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) discussions was set out in the statement I made to the and the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) House on 28 June 2010, Official Report, columns 31-32 WS. on gun crime issues. NABIS and ACPO monitor trends in the illegal use of firearms and work with local police Immobilisation of Vehicles forces to ensure that they have the intelligence and support they need to address gun crime in their area. Ms Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for the NABIS is currently actively looking at the illegal use of Home Department when she plans to announce the shotguns, including how they move into the criminal outcome of her review of wheel clamping legislation. market, how criminals use them and what can be done [5430] by law enforcement and Government to prevent this from happening. Lynne Featherstone: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave on 15 June 2010, Official Report, There are a range of strict controls on the lawful column 385W. possession of firearms, including a ban on handguns. Chief officers of police must be satisfied that an applicant Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the has a good reason for wanting a particular firearm and Home Department what provisions in statute law is fit to be entrusted with it before issuing a certificate. govern (a) wheel clamping and (b) other forms of vehicle immobilisation on (i) public and (ii) private Forensic Science: DNA land. [8705] Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lynne Featherstone: The Home Office is responsible Home Department what discussions she has had with for legislation on vehicle immobilisation activity on the Association of Chief Police Officers on the 2007 private land carried out by the private security industry, review of forensic practices involving low copy number in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Under the DNA. [8087] Private Security Industry Act 2001, vehicle immobilisers 201W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 202W involved in immobilising, blocking in or towing away a (2) what estimate she has made of the number of vehicle with the intention of charging a release fee are British citizens convicted of offences related to sexual required to hold a licence for the purpose issued by the misdemeanours resident (a) overseas and (b) at an Security Industry Authority. These provisions do not unknown location. [9013] apply in Scotland, where vehicle immobilisation is effectively banned through a decision of the Scottish courts. James Brokenshire [holding answer 19 July 2010]: Paragraphs 3 and 3A of Schedule 2 to the 2001 Act This question cannot be answered readily and set out the circumstances in which the licensing requirement accurately from the Violent and Sex Offenders Register applies to vehicle immobilisers. The provisions apply to (ViSOR). However, on the convicted person’s return to operatives working in-house and on contract and include the UK, a summons can be served upon them to present those responsible for taking payment of the release fee. themselves at a magistrates court for a notification order to be applied. The court must be satisfied that a Sections 42 to 44 of the Crime and Security Act 2010 notifiable offence has been committed abroad and then amended the 2001 Act to provide for a licensing requirement a notification order will be made. This order then applying to vehicle immobilisation businesses. These requires the individual to register on the Violent and provisions have not yet been implemented. Sex Offenders Register. The legislation concerning vehicle immobilisation on public land is primarily the responsibility of the Department Sojourner Project for Transport. Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Offensive Weapons the Home Department if her Department will continue funding the Sojourner Project beyond September 2010. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for [8582] the Home Department what steps her Department is taking to reduce the number of knives on the streets. James Brokenshire: A Home Office pilot project for [8795] victims of domestic violence with no recourse to public funds commenced in November 2009 and was scheduled James Brokenshire: This year, the Government are to run to the end of August 2010. On 16 July, the Home providing £4 million to local areas to support their Secretary announced an extension to the pilot until the work in tackling serious youth violence, including knife end of March 2011 and a commitment to find a long-term crime. We will also reduce bureaucracy to give police funding solution to the issue. The pilot is monitored on forces greater freedom to target their activities according a monthly basis and a full evaluation will take place to local need, including tackling knife crime and we will following completion of the pilot. work with Department of Health to ensure that hospitals will share non-confidential information with the police Violent and Sex Offender Register so they can target activity in gun and knife crime hot spots. Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for the In addition, a Home Office Community Fund is Home Department how many additions to the sex providing 144 small local community-based organisations offender register have been made other than by a with £10,000 each this year to stop young people from recommendation at the time of sentencing in each year starting to commit violence, or to help young people since 1997. [9582] out of it. The activities being delivered focus on mentoring, James Brokenshire: The notification requirements (also outreach or education work with young people involved known as the sex offenders’ register) of part 2 of the in, or at risk of becoming involved in gun/knife crime or Sexual Offences Act 2003 are an automatic requirement gang activity, or support schemes for siblings, families for offenders who receive a conviction, caution or reprimand and parents of young people involved in or at risk of for certain sexual offences. There is no “recommendation” involvement in gang or knife violence. which leads to someone to becoming subject to the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for notification requirements. the Home Department what recent discussions she has The vast majority of offenders subject to notification had with representatives of businesses on controls on requirements listed in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 will the sale of knives. [8806] have been convicted of a relevant offence, either in the UK or abroad. There is a very small number who have James Brokenshire: The Home Secretary has not yet been subject to a Risk of Sexual Harm Order (RoSHO) had any discussions with representatives of retail businesses and breached the conditions. This would make them on the sale of knives. Home Office officials continue to subject to notification requirements. We are unable to work with local police and trading standards officers ascertain this figure from the Violent and Sex Offenders and with representatives of retail businesses to ensure Register (ViSOR). that the law on the underage sale of knives is properly Offenders who are made subject to a Sexual Offences enforced. Prevention Order (SOPO) or a Notification Order also Sexual Offences become subject to notification requirements. The number of SOPOs granted in England and Wales Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for are as follows: the Home Department (1) how many British citizens who have committed sexual crimes against children Number overseas have been subjected to notification 2005-06 937 requirements under section 97 of the Sexual Offences 2006-07 1,114 Act 2003; [9012] 203W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 204W
Departmental Civil Servants Number
2007-08 1,440 Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 1,512 Health how many employees of his Department attended Civil Service Live in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and However, we are unable to ascertain from these figures, (c) 2010; and what estimate he has made of the (i) the number of offenders who became subject to SOPOs employee working hours taken up by and (ii) cost to his at the time of sentencing or at any other time. Department of such attendance in each such year. The number of Notification Orders granted in England [9052] and Wales are as follows: Mr Simon Burns: Civil Service Live events are owned Number and managed by the private company Dods (the publishers of Civil Service World), who bear all of the financial 2004-05 22 risks. 2005-06 37 2006-07 62 The overall delegate numbers for Civil Service Live in 2007-08 70 2008, 2009 and 2010 were approximately 6,000, 8,000 2008-09 72 and 7,700 respectively. Delegate registration is managed centrally by Dods. Departments do not keep a detailed record of every member of staff that attends. Violent and Sex Offender Register: Offences Against Civil servants do not pay to attend Civil Service Live Children events. There will have been some travel and subsistence costs for delegates, which will be paid for by individual Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Departments. Civil servants attending the event will the Home Department whether British citizens who have followed the travel and subsistence guidelines set have committed sexual crimes against children overseas by their Departments. are required to register on the Violent and Sex Offenders Register. [9011] Dietary Supplements James Brokenshire [holding answer 19 July 2010]: There is no requirement for British citizens who have Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health been convicted of sexual crimes against children (1) what representations he has made to the European overseas to register on the Violent and Sex Offenders Commission on the time taken by the European Food Register. However, on the convicted person’s return to Safety Authority to process assessments of the health the UK, a summons can be served upon them to present benefits claimed for food products and supplements; themselves at a magistrates court for a notification [9188] order to be applied. The court must be satisfied that a (2) what estimate he has made of (a) the number of notifiable offence has been committed abroad and then and (b) the costs to businesses of changes to the a notification order will be made. This order then previously announced timescale for assessing the requires the individual to register on the Violent and claims for the health benefits of food products and Sex Offenders Register. supplements by the European Food Safety Authority. [9189]
Anne Milton: The unprecedented number of health HEALTH claims applications (more than 4,000) from businesses Departmental Billing has meant that the timetable for European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) completing its assessments and the development of the European community list (31 January Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010) has slipped. Health what information his Department holds on the time taken by contractors employed by it to pay the EFSA has decided to issue its opinions in batches, invoices of their sub-contractors under prompt and has rejected requests from the Commission and payment arrangements; and if he will make a others to limit publication to a single list: the first batch statement. [9252] was published in October 2009 and EFSA predicts that the final batch will be published in 2012. Several European Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not collect Commissioners past and present have made clear that this information centrally. the Commission will authorise claims in batches, to give clarity to the market and ensure consumer protection, However, all departmental contracts contain the following and that it is not willing to change its position. We have clause: not therefore made representations to the European “Where the Contractor enters into a sub-contract for the Commission on this matter but Food Standards Agency provision of any part of the Services, the Contractor shall (FSA) officials are working to ensure that claims are ensure that a term is included in the sub-contract which requires the Contractor to pay all sums due to the sub-contractor authorised appropriately. within a specified period, not exceeding 30 days from the date The FSA compiled a Regulatory Impact Assessment of receipt of a valid invoice as defined by the terms of that on the nutrition and health claims regulation in 2007. It sub-contract.” has not carried out a formal assessment of whether any This clause is consistent with Office of Government costs to business will result from changes to the planned Commerce best practice on payments to sub-contractors. timetable for assessing health claim applications however 205W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 206W officials are willing to work closely with businesses and Mr Simon Burns: Information on consultations for with enforcement bodies to minimise any negative impact minor ailments is held by general practitioner practices on businesses. on their clinical systems. Whether or how this information is shared more widely is a matter for local decision. Doctors and Nurses: Foreign Workers Health Services: Standards Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what standards his Department requires in Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State respect of (a) competence in the English language and for Health what research his Department has (b) professional standards from (i) doctors and (ii) undertaken for benchmarking purposes into health nurses from other EU member states coming to work service provision in other countries in the last in the UK. [9364] 12 months. [9796]
Anne Milton: ‘HSC1999/137: Employment of European Anne Milton: The Department performs international Economic Area (EEA) nationals ensuring language comparisons as part of its routine business and in competency’ makes it clear that employers are responsible policy development. In addition the Department for ensuring that the staff they employ have the necessary commissions research using international comparisons language and communication skills for the specific role from both inside and outside the Department, which is to which they are being appointed. The precise requirements used to learn potential lessons from other countries. By for different posts are a matter for employers as they are comparing ourselves with other countries, we can identify likely to vary depending on the specific role being particular areas where, internationally, we are undertaken. underperforming. We can then examine how different All registered health care professionals from the EEA countries have approached similar issues, learn from who are practicing their profession anywhere in the their solutions, and improve care in the national health United Kingdom are required to observe the professional service. standards set by the relevant UK professional regulatory In the last 12 months the Department has worked body. For doctors the professional regulatory body is with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and the General Medical Council and for nurses it is the Development on Health Care Quality Indicators, Nursing and Midwifery Council. commissioned work from RAND and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine on a variety of Food Standards Agency international comparisons projects, and contributed funds to the World Health Organisation for work on Health Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for System Performance Assessment in the WHO European Health by what means he plans to implement his Region. An internal project is being carried out on proposal to abolish the Food Standards Agency. [8900] International Cancer Benchmarking and the National Cancer Director, Professor Mike Richards, has undertaken Anne Milton: We have no plans to abolish the Food a study of international variations in drug usage, and Standards Agency. I refer the hon. Member to the the causes for any such variation. His report will be written ministerial statement made by my right hon. published shortly. Friend the Prime Minister on 20 July on the machinery Macfarlane Trust: Finance of government changes.
Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many staff were located at each office of Health what plans his Department has for future the Food Standards Agency in each of the last five funding of the Macfarlane Trust. [8669] years. [9708] Anne Milton: There are currently no planned changes Anne Milton: The average number of staff located at to the future funding of the Macfarlane Trust. each office of the Food Standards Agency over the last Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen five financial years was as follows: Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Health (1) what steps are being taken to assist veterans England Scotland Wales NI with combat stress which is diagnosed a decade or 2009-10 625 75 35 38 more after discharge from the armed forces; [9236] 2008-09 629 73 34 35 (2) what estimate his Department has made of the 2007-08 684 68 27 34 cost to the public purse of family breakdown arising 2006-07 646 68 23 33 from veterans’ undiagnosed mental health problems. 2005-06 596 73 23 29 [9238]
General Practitioners Mr Burstow: No estimate of the cost of family breakdown arising from veterans’ undiagnosed mental Mr Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health health problems has been made. pursuant to the answer of 8 July 2010, Official Report, The Government are committed to providing effective, column 400W, on general practitioners, whether through-life, mental health services for our service and information on the number of GP appointments for ex-service personnel. The Prime Minister has asked the patients with minor ailments is collected locally. [9789] hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) 207W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 208W to conduct an independent study into the provision of implementation of the PHS will begin in the financial Ministry of Defence and national health service support year 2011-12 and it will be fully established by April and services to the armed forces and ex-service personnel 2012. In 2012-13 local ring-fenced public health budgets and to make recommendations for improvement, will be allocated in shadow form and real allocations particularly in the area of mental health. will be issued for 2013-14. The Government have recently confirmed an additional The Department will create a ring-fenced public health £2 million to allow the Department of Health to work budget and, within this, local Directors of Public Health with strategic partners, including Combat Stress, to will be responsible for health improvement funds allocated ensure that the best treatment and support services are according to relative population health need. available for veterans with mental health problems— The local ring-fenced public health budget will be including those who have left the armed forces several based on current identifiable expenditure by the NHS years ago—and to ensure a smooth transition to civilian and the Department. The allocation formula for those life. funds will include a new “health premium” designed to NHS: Abortion promote action to improve population-wide health and reduce health inequalities. Work is currently under way to determine baseline spending and the details of how Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for local ring-fenced public health budgets will be determined. Health what estimate he has made of the (a) number Further details will be made available in due course. and (b) cost of abortions carried out for non-EU nationals on the NHS in 2009. [8885] Patients’ Rights: EU Action Anne Milton: Abortions performed under Section 1(4) are rare in recent years and in each year since 2002 there Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for have been less than 101 cases (between 0 and nine). The Health whether his Department plans to participate in Department does not collect information on the cost of the European Project for Assessing Patients’ Rights. such emergency abortions. [7553] 1 Totals are suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics guidance on the release of abortion statistics, 2005. Mr Simon Burns: I will reply to the hon. Member as soon as possible. NHS: Local Government Substantive answer from Anne Milton to Annette Brooke: The Government have no plans to participate in the European Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Project for Assessing Patients’ Rights. Health pursuant to the statement of 12 July 2010, The project is linked to proposals for a European Union-wide Official Report, columns 661-681, on NHS White constitution for patients and significant harmonisation of health Paper, (1) what (a) funding and (b) other resources systems and patient entitlements. We consider this to be contrary will be provided to local authorities to assist them to to member states’ rights to organise their health systems under agree local strategies with the NHS; [9294] Article 168 of the Treaty. (2) over what timescale local authorities will be given Streptococcal Infections: Babies control over local health improvement budgets; [9295] (3) what estimate he has made of expenditure on Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health local health improvement budgets for 2010-11; and how many newborn babies were diagnosed with group what the forecast expenditure is for (a) 2011-12 and B streptococcal infections in (a) London and (b) (b) 2012-13. [9296] England in each of the last five years. [9773]
Anne Milton: Later this year we will publish a White Anne Milton: Data are not available by region as this Paper setting out further details of the new Public is not a routine data output. Health Service (PHS) and our programme for public health. Primary care trusts responsibilities for local The Health Protection Agency (HPA) receives reports health improvement will transfer to local authorities, of bloodstream infections associated with group B who will employ Directors of Public Health jointly streptococci. appointed with the PHS. As set out in the draft Structural The HPA has published data for England for infants Reform Plan published on the Department’s website, aged under 90 days as detailed in the following table.
Number and rate (per 1,000 live births) of group B streptococcal bacteraemia reports in infants 0 to 90 days old: England, 2006-08
All cases (0 to 90 days old) Early onset (0 to 6 days old) Late onset (7 to 90 days old)
Rate (95% Rate (95% Rate (95% confidence interval confidence interval confidence interval Number (CI)) Number (CI)) Number (CI))
2006 366 0.58 (0.52-0.64) 221 0.35 (0.30-0.40) 145 0.23 (0.19-0.27)
2007 383 0.60 (0.54-0.67) 235 0.37 (0.32-0.42) 148 0.23 (0.20-0.27)
2008 439 0.67 (0.61-0.74) 262 0.40 (0.35-0.45) 177 0.27 (0.23-0.31)
Notes: 1. CI = Confidence Interval or 95% confident the true proportion lies within the range given. 2. Data for 2005 and 2006 are only available for infants, i.e. children aged under one year). 209W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 210W
Sunbeds: Young People During the pandemic, in common with normal seasonal flu, data were collected on the proportion of subsets of Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for the population presenting with a flu-like illness that Health when he plans to bring into force each of the were actually laboratory confirmed. Like seasonal influenza, powers to protect young people from sunbed use this ranged from 10-60%, depending on the age of the available under the Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010. patient and the point in the pandemic that they presented. [8875] Swine Flu: Disease Control Anne Milton: The Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010 (the Act) comes into force on 8 April 2011. This purpose Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the Act is to prevent people under the age of 18 from (1) when remaining stocks of swine influenza (a) using sunbeds on commercial premises, by making it an antivirals and (b) vaccines will pass their use-by dates; offence for sunbed operators to allow people under the [9139] age of 18 access to sunbeds on their premises. (2) what proportion of swine influenza (a) antivirals Regulation making powers (for example the one requiring and (b) vaccines were used; and what the estimated that the use of sunbeds to be supervised) would begin as value is of the unused medicines in each case; [9140] soon as possible after the Bill became an Act. Departmental officials are considering options to take forward the (3) how much was spent on (a) antivirals and (b) powers to regulate and may make recommendations to vaccines for the H1N1 virus. [9141] Ministers in due course. However they are giving priority to implementing the main provisions of the Act (namely Anne Milton: The expiry dates of the remaining stocks those that prohibit sunbed operators from allowing of antivirals depend on their original purchase dates. those under the age of 18 from using their sunbeds). The initial Tamiflu procurement completed in 2006 and However, this parliamentary question is an illustration the procurement in 2008-09 had a five-year shelf life. of the continuing interest there is in this topic within Tamiflu stock bought since July 2009 has a seven-year Parliament and beyond. shelf life. The Relenza stocks procured in 2008-09 had a seven-year shelf life although we are discussing shelf We are currently considering the regulation making life extensions with the supplier. The remaining stocks powers contained in the Act. of vaccines have shelf lives through to October 2011. Sutton and Merton Primary Care Trust: Finance The antiviral stock usage for England constituted approximately 6% of the amount procured. The usage Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for of antivirals in England includes stock issued through Health what the projected deficit of NHS Sutton and the National Pandemic Flu Service, general practitioners Merton is for (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13 and (c) and other avenues. The vaccine stock usage for England 2013-14; when he expects to receive the full strategic constituted approximately 45% of the amount procured. business case for upgrades to Nelson Hospital; and if The usage of vaccines in England includes all the stock he will make a statement. [10132] sent out to the national health service and a donation to the World Health Organisation. Mr Simon Burns: The Department has collected financial The values of the unused antivirals and vaccines plans from national health service organisations for cannot be disclosed as this information is commercial in 2010-11 and 2011-12. Sutton and Merton primary care confidence. trust has planned to break even in 2011-12. The Department The spend on the response to the pandemic, as set does not hold projected figures for 2012-13 or 2013-14. out in the independent review of the UK response to The Department has not received a business case for the 2009 influenza pandemic, is £587 million. This the Nelson hospital. Business cases must first be assessed publication can be found at: by the relevant strategic health authority prior to being www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ukresilience/ccs/news/100701-flu- submitted to the Department. pandemic-review.aspx Swine Flu: Death The spend on response includes antivirals consumed, vaccine and associated administration costs, consumables Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for used, the operating costs for systems and infrastructure Health what estimate his Department has made of the including the National Pandemic Flu Service, additional number of people who died as a result of (a) Health Protection Agency costs and extra costs required misdiagnosis of bacteriological infections as swine flu for swine flu related communications. and (b) not being prescribed antibiotics during the The spend on preparedness was £655 million. This swine flu pandemic. [9447] includes antivirals, antibiotics and consumables which continue to be held for future use, the development of Anne Milton: We do not hold estimates of the data the systems and infrastructure and the advance purchase that have been requested and we do not hold baseline agreements for vaccines signed in 2007. data from which bacteriological deaths can be estimated. It is well accepted that there are no symptoms or Swine Flu: Vaccination signs that are considered so characteristic of influenza that it makes the diagnosis completely certain. In addition, Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the signs and symptoms associated with influenza also what estimate has been made of the number of lives apply to a host of other viral and bacterial conditions. saved as a result of the vaccination programme against This presents major challenges for clinicians during influenza A subtype H1N1; and if he will make a seasonal influenza. statement. [9138] 211W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 212W
Anne Milton: In her independent review of the 2009 Wharfedale Hospital influenza pandemic, Dame Deirdre Hine noted that this pandemic Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for “was the first where the United Kingdom had a specific Health what plans he has for the future of Wharfedale vaccine available for use while the virus was still causing disease in hospital. [9742] the nation”. In addition, at the time when decisions about the Mr Simon Burns: It is for Leeds Teaching Hospitals procurement of pandemic vaccine were required she NHS Trust to ensure that the Wharfedale hospital noted that provides modern, personalised, and responsive patient care of a consistently high quality that is equally accessible “uncertainty remained about all aspects of the influenza outbreak, to all patients. and although data was being collected and analysed, there was little confidence that the severity or infectivity could be predicted”. The total number of deaths from influenza A (H1N1) in England from the start of the pandemic in England COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT to 18 March 2010 was reported in the Hine report Departmental Civil Servants as 342. A study published by the Health Protection Agency, Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Imperial College London and London School of Hygiene Communities and Local Government how many and Tropical Medicine following the end of the second employees of his Department attended Civil Service epidemic wave of influenza A (H1N1) has estimated Live in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; and what that the influenza A (H1N1) vaccination programme estimate he has made of the (i) employee working may have prevented between about 230,000 and 710,000 hours taken up and (ii) cost to his Department of such cases and between 26 and 67 deaths from influenza A attendance in each such year. [9043] (H1N1) in England (there are no similar estimates for the United Kingdom). These estimates are based upon Robert Neill: Civil Service Live events are owned and a number of assumptions about the vaccination programme managed by the private company Dods (the publishers and the performance of the vaccine, including that the of Civil Service World), who bear all of the financial uptake of vaccine in clinical risk groups would reach risks. 70%, by early November 2009. In fact, the uptake of The overall delegate numbers for Civil Service Live in vaccine in the clinical risk groups was about 30 per cent, 2008, 2009 and 2010 were approximately 6,000, 8,000 by late December 2009. Therefore, the number of cases and 7,700 respectively. Delegate registration is managed and deaths prevented may be of a lower range than centrally by Dods. We do not keep a detailed record of these estimates. A published Canadian study of the every member of staff that attends. influenza A (H1N1) vaccination programme in Ontario Civil servants do not pay to attend Civil Service Live suggested that vaccinating 30% of the population of events. There will have been some travel and subsistence that province would prevent about 35 deaths. costs for delegates, which will be paid for by Communities The study published by the Health Protection Agency, and Local Government (CLG). Civil servants attending Imperial College London and London School of Hygiene the event will have followed the travel and subsistence and Tropical Medicine showed that the vaccination guidelines set by CLG. strategy that was employed in practice would save most Travel and subsistence is approved locally in accordance lives. with departmental procedures and guidance and costs have to be met from within agreed budgets for general Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health administrative expenditure. Unfortunately there would what his most recent assessment is of the efficacy of the be a disproportionate cost in obtaining detailed information influenza A subtype H1N1 vaccine (a) as a from local line managers. prophylactic and (b) in reducing the symptoms of swine influenza. [9142] Departmental Equality Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: Unpublished data by the Health Protection Communities and Local Government how much his Agency (HPA) suggest that in England the influenza A Department has spent (a) in total and (b) on staff (H1N1) vaccination is likely to have been at least as costs on promoting equality and diversity in each of effective as the usual seasonal influenza vaccinations the last three years for which figures are available; and when the vaccines have been well matched to the circulating how many people are employed by his Department for influenza strains (around 70% effective at preventing this purpose. [5910] influenza). As with seasonal influenza vaccines, influenza A (H1N1) vaccine is likely to be less effective in older Robert Neill: All public bodies are required to be people. compliant with equality legislation and so resource is The HPA is seeking to publish a detailed analysis of allocated to ensure the Department meets its statutory these data in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. obligations. Influenza A (H1N1) vaccine effectiveness is being In 2008-09 the budget for promoting equality and assessed in terms of influenza that may have been diversity was £69,000. For the years 2009-10 and 2010-11 prevented not by the reduction in severity of symptoms the allocated budget was £72,000. of influenza. However, as well as preventing influenza, The projected costs for the three staff working on an effective vaccine is likely to reduce the symptoms of work force equalities totals £126,000 for the financial influenza for those that develop the disease. year 2010-11. As a consequence of staff turnover and 213W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 214W restructuring of the function it has not been possible to Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer calculate the staff costs for the financial years 2008-09 given to the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris and 2009-10. Leslie) on 21 June 2010, Official Report, columns 23-24W, which sets out the savings being delivered by my Department Departmental Legislation through reducing waste. Running costs savings are being delivered through John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation of spending controls, including: Communities and Local Government pursuant to the A freeze on new advertising, marketing, consultancy and research answer of 28 June 2010, Official Report, column 375W, spend. on the Decentralisation and Localism Bill, if he will A freeze on civil service recruitment and increased controls on estimate the number of his Department’s officials who temporary and interim staff. have been assigned to work on the Decentralisation Implementation of the civil service pay freeze as announced by and Localisation Bill. [9512] the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 22 June. A freeze on all new ICT spend above £1 million. Greg Clark: This is a major piece of legislation spanning My Department is also renegotiating core contracts, many housing, planning and local government issues. A and is centralising procurement for commodity goods wide range of officials from across the Department are and services. Furthermore, the Department is implementing contributing to preparing for the Bill. extended controls on new property lease and lease extensions. Departmental Manpower Departmental Pay Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many staff Communities and Local Government how much was worked in his Department’s ministerial support office paid in remuneration in total to civil servants in his on (a) 1 May 2010 and (b) 1 July 2010. [6155] Department in 2009-10. [9892] Robert Neill [holding answer 5 July 2010]: The number Robert Neill: Details of the remuneration paid to all of staff in ministerial private offices on (a) 1 May 2010 employees in Communities and Local Government is was 32. On (b) 1 July 2010 the number was 30. The set out in ‘Section 4: Remuneration Report’, of the latter figure is unchanged from the answer I gave my Department’s Resource Accounts published on 9 July hon. Friend on 8 June 2010, Official Report, columns 2010: 127-28 W.This is fewer than the arrangements inherited http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ from the last Government. clgresourceaccounts0910 Departmental Official Cars Departmental Training
Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which Ministers Communities and Local Government what training has in his Department have used an allocated ministerial been provided for Ministers in his Department since car to travel between the Department and the House of the formation of the present administration; and at Commons on each day since 21 May 2010. [5539] what cost. [6432]
Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for West Bromwich East given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Watson) on 8 June 2010, Official Report, column (Mr Maude) to the hon. Member for West Bromwich 128W. East (Mr Watson) on 3 June 2010, Official Report, columns 51-52W. The National School of Government All travel is undertaken in accordance with the Ministerial is funded through its Core Learning Programme to Code. deliver induction and other training to Ministers, and there is no separate charge to Departments. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his estimate In addition, the Department’s Communications is of the mileage travelled by each Minister in his Directorate has also provided a training session. There Department in a Government car in (a) May and (b) was no charge to the Department. June 2010. [8325] Departmental Travel
Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for given by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State Communities and Local Government how much his for Transport (Mike Penning) on 13 July 2010, Official (a) Department and its predecessors and (b) its Report, column 624W. agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on travel for employees in each year since 1997. [7419] Departmental Operating Costs Robert Neill: The following table shows total spend Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for on travel for the last two financial years for (a) the Communities and Local Government what steps he has Department and (b) its agencies and non-departmental taken to reduce the cost of running his Department bodies. Details of expenditure in earlier years could be since his appointment. [9276] supplied only at disproportionate cost. 215W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 216W
Churches Together in Britain and Ireland £ Evangelical Alliance, UK 2008-09 2009-10 Faith Based Regeneration Network UK Communities and Local 2,714,550 2,960,970 Free Churches Group, Churches Together in England Government Hindu Council UK Government Office Network 1,231,567 1,575,323 Hindu Forum of Britain Planning Inspectorate 2,521,743 2,325,674 Fire Service College 198,472 318,377 Interfaith Council, Wales Queen Elizabeth II 43,880 43,880 Inter Faith Network for the UK Conference Centre Jain Samaj Europe Housing and Communities 1,563,079 916,071 Methodist Church Agency Minority Ethnic Christian Affairs, Churches Together in England Ordnance Survey 1,247,937 1,211,097 Muslim Council of Britain FireBuy 66,749 87,076 Audit Commission 5,231,402 4,119,205 Network of Buddhist Organisations LEASE 2,525 14,897 Network of Sikh Organisations Valuation Tribunal Service 164,230 214,455 Northern Ireland Interfaith Forum Tenant Service Authority 139,344 988,969 Office of the Chief Rabbi Independent Housing 44,011 37,653 Scottish Churches Parliamentary Office Ombudsman Zoroastrian Trust Funds of Europe. Standards Board 742,599 620,501 London Thames Gateway 67,912 18,099 Fire Services Development Corporation Thurrock Thames Gateway 26,323 26,323 Development Corporation Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for West Northamptonshire 134,655 110,106 Communities and Local Government if he will take Development Corporation steps to end (a) the FiReControl project and (b) the Total 16,140,978 15,588,676 regionalisation of the fire service. [9945] Note: These figures include expenditure on travel claimed back through Robert Neill: The FiReControl project needs to be staff travel and subsistence. delivered to time, cost and quality. The main contractor EU Law EADS has given a clear public commitment on delivery and these contractual commitments must now be met. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for I need to be satisfied that the three delivery basics are Communities and Local Government if he will achievable. FiReControl, as with all Government projects, estimate the cost to his Department of compliance with is also being reviewed to ensure value for money for the regulations arising from EU obligations in the last taxpayer. 12 months. [6870] The Government are committed to ensuring value-for- money for the taxpayer, improving resilience and stopping Robert Neill: Details of the cost of compliance with the forced regionalisation of the fire service. regulations arising from EU obligations are not held centrally and could only be supplied at disproportionate Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for cost. The Department does not hold central records for Communities and Local Government how much has regulations arising from EU obligations nor does it been incurred in cancellation changes by his exist separately as part of a category or coding within Department in respect of each of the contracts either the Department’s finance system. awarded under the FiReControl project to date. [9946]
Faiths Consultative Council Robert Neill: My Department has not incurred any cancellation costs in respect of contracts awarded under Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the FiReControl project. Communities and Local Government who the members are of the Faiths Consultative Council; and Green Belt when it last met. [5595] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Andrew Stunell: The full Council last met on 12 for Communities and Local Government what steps he January 2010, however a further two special meetings of plans to take to protect the Green Belt in (a) the UK the Council were convened on 3 March and 18 March and (b) Coventry. [9572] 2010 to discuss specific topics. At that time the membership comprised: Robert Neill: Planning is a devolved matter, so this Al - Khoei Foundation answer relates only to England. In the coalition agreement Bahá’is Community of the United Kingdom we undertook to maintain the green belt. One major step has already been taken—we have just revoked Board of Deputies of British Jews regional strategies, thus removing regional housing targets British Muslim Forum and the pressure they created to release green belt land British Sikh Consultative Forum for development. That means the protection of particular Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales green belts is in the hands of local communities. Local Church of England planning authorities—including those around Coventry— 217W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 218W are free to exercise the powers to protect green belt £ million currently set out in Planning Policy Guidance Note 2, Voluntary “Green Belts”, including the presumption against LAs organisations Total inappropriate development on green belt land. 2005-06 44.7 15’ 59.7 Homelessness 2006-07 49.5 18 67.5 2007-08 51 19.5 70.5 Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 59.5 17.1 76.5 Communities and Local Government how many 2009-10 59.51 18.4 77.9 households with children were directed into private sector accommodation under schemes to prevent Housing: Construction homelessness in each local authority area in each of the last five years. [10026] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Grant Shapps: The information required is not held has made of the effects on employment in the centrally. construction sector in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12 of Although the Department collects data on the number the projected levels of housebuilding in those fiscal of preventions made in the form of private sector years. [8651] accommodation, these figures are not collected broken down by household type. Andrew Stunell: The Department does not make estimates The Department began collecting homelessness of future employment in the construction sector. prevention and relief data from local authorities in the Employment in the construction sector declined during April to June quarter 2008. Official statistics on the recession; ONS Labour Market Statistics show homelessness prevention and relief in 2008-09 were 2.31 million workforce jobs in the UK construction published in November 2009 and designated as sector in the March quarter of 2008; in the March ’experimental statistics’ in recognition that the preventions quarter of 2010 workforce jobs stood at 2.05 million data is a new series of statistic still undergoing evaluation (seasonally adjusted). Over the same period, housing and the quality of the figures are likely to improve over output declined; quarterly housing completions stood time. at 40,620 in the March quarter of 2008 and were 26,090 in the same quarter of 2010 (seasonally adjusted) according The release can be found in the following link: to CLG’s House Building Statistics. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ statistics/homelessnessprevention200809 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for The total number of households (with or without Communities and Local Government if he will place in children) whose homelessness was prevented or relieved the Library a copy of the letters sent by the then by obtaining private rented sector accommodation was Minister for Housing and Planning to the 37,820 in 2008-09. Communities and Local Government Select Committee in summer 2009 detailing plans and Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for funding for the Housing Pledge contained in Building Communities and Local Government (1) how much Britain’s Future. [9511] has been paid in homelessness grants (a) to local authorities and (b) to the voluntary sector in each year Grant Shapps: A letter of 17 July 2009 from the then to date; [10188] Minister for Housing and Planning about funding the (2) with reference to the March 2010 Budget, previous Administration’s Housing Pledge was published whether homelessness grants are paid through area- in the Communities and Local Government Committee’s based grants; [10189] Third Report of Session 2009-10 published on its website (3) what mechanism is used to calculate the on 5 March homelessness grant for each local authority. [10190] http://www.publications.parliament.uk in the list of written evidence (first item, ‘Ev 35’). Grant Shapps: The table shows total allocations of homelessness grant to local authorities and the voluntary Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State sector from 2002-03 to 2009-10. for Communities and Local Government what Homelessness grant is not paid through area-based incentives his Department will provide to encourage grant. Allocations of homelessness grant, consist of local authorities to increase the stock of new build proportionate distribution of the grant across authorities housing. [9574] based on levels of rough sleeping, temporary accommodation and B&B usage, along with funding to Grant Shapps: We are committed to increasing housing support particular delivery blockages or weaknesses. supply and seeing more of the homes that people want, in the places that people want them, to meet Britain’s £ million housing need. The coalition agreement set out our clear Voluntary intention to provide incentives for local authorities to LAs organisations Total deliver sustainable development, including new homes and business. 2002-03 48.2 25 73.2 2003-04 50.6 20.3 70.9 The new incentives scheme will therefore directly 2004-05 45.4 14.8 60.2 reward local authorities that choose to take action to deliver housing growth. We will consult later this year. 219W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 220W
Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government Finance: West Midlands Communities and Local Government what his policy is on the exemption of new housing developments for Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for older people from (a) section 106 requirements and Communities and Local Government (1) what estimate (b) other planning requirements applied to housing he has made of the likely in-year change to his developments. [10055] Department’s capital allocation to each local authority in the West Midlands in (a) percentage and (b) cash Robert Neill: The current policy on section 106 terms in 2010-11; and if he will make a statement; requirements is set out in Circular 5/05. The Circular is [8412] currently under review. The current policy on housing development is set out in Planning Police Statement 3 (2) what estimate he has made of the likely change in (Housing). his Department’s capital allocation to each local authority in the West Midlands for 2010-11 in (a) In the coalition agreement the Government stated percentage and (b) cash terms; and if he will make a that they will publish and present to Parliament a statement. [10083] simple and consolidated national planning framework covering all forms of development. We will be making Robert Neill: Tackling the UK’s record deficit is the an announcement on how we propose to take forward Government’s top priority, and we believe that it is right the national planning framework and the implications that local authorities make a contribution to the efficiency for specific areas of planning policy. savings of £6.2 billion which we have announced for 2010-11. A written statement on Local Government Housing: Empty Property Savings by the Secretary of State and further information sent to local authorities was placed in the Library of the Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State House on 10 June 2010. for Communities and Local Government how many These savings included reductions to two capital empty residential properties there were in programmes proposed to be paid to local authorities in Peterborough City Council area on 1 April in each year 2010-11: Housing Market Renewal was reduced by since 2006; and if he will make a statement. [10134] £50 million, and Gypsy Site Grant by £30 million. The Housing Market Renewal allocations initially announced Robert Neill: The numbers of empty domestic dwellings in December 2009 will be reduced; the mechanism by in the Peterborough city council area as at the beginning which this reduction is achieved has been subject to of October in each year since 2006 are shown in the consultation and individual allocations for 2010-11 will following table. The data include both short-term and be confirmed shortly. My Department had intended to long-term empty dwellings. make allocations for Gypsy Site Grant through a bidding Empty domestic dwellings process; this process and all remaining grant have now been cancelled. Number 2006 2,125 Local Government Services 2007 2,179 2008 2,517 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State 2009 2,590 for Communities and Local Government what his The data are taken from the Council Tax Base (CTB) definition is of an essential frontline service for local and CTB(Supplementary) forms completed annually in authorities; and if he will make a statement. [9006] October by all billing authorities in England and returned to Communities and Local Government. Andrew Stunell: This is for local authorities to define. Local authorities, engaging their communities, must Housing: Regeneration determine their local priorities and define the services needed to deliver them. Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he plans Minerals to continue with the housing regeneration scheme in the Bransholme North area of Kingston upon Hull Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for North constituency. [7981] Communities and Local Government by what mechanism local authorities may review target figures Andrew Stunell: I assume the hon. Member is referring for the extraction of minerals. [9074] to the housing stock transfer proposal at the North Bransholme Estate, Hull to the Riverside Housing Group. Robert Neill: Mineral planning authorities are required My predecessor agreed in a ministerial statement on to plan for a steady and adequate supply of aggregate 16 December that the Bransholme North housing stock minerals to support economic growth. It is up to the transfer proposal should proceed to consultation with local discretion of the mineral planning authority to tenants. Tenants have since voted in support of the review targets for the extraction of minerals as part of proposal. The Homes and Communities Agency, which any review of their development plan documents, and has responsibility for the delivery of the Housing Transfer when such a review may take place. Our statement to programme, will scrutinise all aspects of the transfer accompany the revocation of regional strategies indicated application before making a recommendation to the that minerals planning authorities should do so within Secretary of State on the application. the longstanding arrangements for minerals planning. 221W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 222W
They can choose to use alternative figures for their Grant Shapps: From 8 October 2009 to 15 July 2010 planning purposes if they have new or different information, there were 59,976 action plans generated on the and a robust evidence base. http://mortgagehelp.direct.gov.uk It is up to the local discretion of the mineral planning website. authority to decide the most appropriate mechanism to The latest monthly period for which figures are available review their targets, in light of the revocation of the is June 2010, during which 1,623 action plans were regional strategies. generated. Mortgages: Government Assistance John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Communities and Local Government which housing answer of 12 July 2010, Official Report, column 497W, associations have participated in the Mortgage Rescue on mortgages: government assistance, how many absolute unique visitors from each (a) region and (b) Scheme. [9611] local authority area there have been to Grant Shapps: On 16 March 2010 the Homes and mortgagehelp.direct.gov.uk (i) since 7 September 2009, Communities Agency published a list of the 153 syndicated (ii) in the last six months and (iii) in the last three housing associations participating in the Mortgage Rescue months. [9621] Scheme network. The list, which includes the 22 syndication agents, is contained within the following press release Grant Shapps: The Department does not hold this link: information. The breakdowns of absolute unique visitors provided to the Department through Google Analytics http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/hca-housing- use geographical definitions not consistent with either associations-deliver-mortgage-rescue English regions or local authorities. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Analysis conducted in January 2010, looking only at Communities and Local Government how many of the target ’hotspot’ areas showed the following visitor numbers visitors to mortgagehelp.direct.gov.uk used the Create for areas broadly analogous to local authority areas your action plan tool in the latest period for which (based figures are available. [9613] on the postcode of the visitor’s Internet Protocol address):
Visitor numbers (Google analytics) by hotspot September 6 - October 5 October 6 - November 12 November 12 - December 10 December 11 - January 11
Barking and Dagenham n/a n/a n/a n/a Birmingham 540 1393 996 1017 Bolton 37 83 92 51 Cannock Chase 17 19 9 12 Corby 3 10 6 2 Halton 22 41 17 20 Kingston on Hull 58 227 106 113 Knowsley 2 7 2 7 Liverpool 85 208 152 133 Manchester 842 1869 1557 1249 Newham n/a n/a n/a n/a Northampton 36 26 45 57 Nottingham 77 161 120 99 Reading 49 122 95 89 Redditch 23 28 24 35 Salford 110 198 165 122 Sand well 5 16 17 27 Sunderland 29 45 28 34 Swindon 33 78 45 61 Walsall 26 79 53 45 Wigan 29 101 49 47 Wolverhampton 35 92 59 54
John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for (SMI) and is working to develop estimates on the Communities and Local Government whether his potential impact of changes in SMI on repossessions. Department has made an estimate of the effect of the changes proposed to the level of assistance under the Support for Mortgage Interest Scheme in the June 2010 Non-domestic Rates: Ports Budget on the number of home repossessions in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [9746] Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Grant Shapps: The Department of Work and Pensions has made of the amount of erased back-dated business leads on analysis of Support for Mortgage Interest rates which will relate to port companies. [9158] 223W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 224W
Robert Neill: My Department’s assessment of informal Andrew Stunell: Local councils are best placed to local authority estimates, received between May and assess the accommodation needs of Gypsies and Travellers. June of 2010, indicate that port based properties have a The abolition of Regional Strategies means that local cumulative backdated liability in the region of £70 million. authorities will be responsible for determining the right This is an estimate based on a snap shot of information level of site provision, reflecting local need and historic taken at varying times between authorities. It is important demand, and for bringing forward land in Development to note that this estimate could change, as it is possible Plan Documents. The West of England local authorities that alterations will be made to the assessments of published a Gypsy and Traveller accommodation properties within ports, for example, following an appeal. assessment in October 2007. If the West of England local authorities decide to review the levels of provision On 22 June we announced our intention to cancel in their area the 2007 assessment will form a good certain backdated business rates liabilities for those starting point. The Government will review relevant properties, including some in ports, that had incurred a regulations and guidance in due course. significant and unexpected backdated rates bill from 2008 as a result of being split from another property. In Yorkshire Dales National Park: Public Consultation the meantime a freeze on the collection and payment of such backdated bills is in place. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Regional Development Agencies representations he has received on involvement of members of the public in planning decisions made in Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of the Yorkshire Dales national park; and if he Communities and Local Government when he expects will make a statement. [9840] to complete his review of successor arrangements to regional development agencies; and if he will make a Robert Neill: The Secretary of State has received no recent representations on involvement of members of statement. [9737] the public in planning decisions made in respect of the Yorkshire Dales national park. Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby) on 1 July 2010, Official Report, column 632W. JUSTICE Hillsborough Disaster Transport: Finance 17. Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he plans to release documents held by his Communities and Local Government whether his Department in relation to the Hillsborough disaster. Department has carried out an assessment of the [9429] potential effect of the operation of (a) Articles 93 and 107 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Mr Djanogly: The Hillsborough Independent Panel Union and (b) EU Regulation 1370/2007 on local is overseeing the process for maximum public disclosure authority grant aid awards to subsidised transport of documents relating to the Hillsborough stadium services. [6821] disaster. Ministry of Justice documents will be provided to the panel as part of this process. Mrs Villiers: I have been asked to reply. Legal Aid: Clinical Negligence Cases Articles 93 and 107 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, relating to state aid in the field 18. Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for of transport, were carried over from the former treaty Justice how much legal aid funding was spent on and are unchanged (with the exception of an additional clinical negligence cases in the last three years. [9430] reference to measures in support of remote and detached parts of certain member states). They have not been Mr Djanogly: Net cash expenditure on legal aid clinical subject to any recent assessment by the Department for negligence cases was £26 million in 2006-07, £28 million Transport. A recent assessment of the impact of Regulation in 2007-08 and £28 million in 2008-09. This includes 1370/2007 on bus and rail services was carried out by funding for cases that have yet to conclude. In those the Department in the context of a questionnaire issued cases where the claim succeeds, the legal costs should be to member states in March this year on behalf of the met by the defendant so that the actual cost to the legal European Commission, asking for information on the aid fund each year is considerably less than the cash implementation of the regulation. I am placing a copy expenditure. of the Department’s response in the Library of the Magistrates Courts House. 19. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Travellers: Caravan Sites Justice what recent representations he has received on his review of magistrates courts. [9431] Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Mr Djanogly: We are four weeks into a 12-week has been made of the level of unmet need for public consultation process. As such, the responses to Travellers’ sites in the Bristol area; and whether the each of the 16 consultation papers have not yet been Government plans to set targets for the provision of collated and analysed. This will happen once the such sites. [8658] consultation closes on 15 September. 225W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 226W
However, I can confirm that as of 15 June, there had Investigatory Powers Act 2000 in (a) 2008 and (b) been 20 letters to Ministers in this Department from 2009; and how many such convictions there have been hon. Members and Welsh Assembly Members regarding in 2010 to date. [8665] the proposals. Two adjournment debates on the consultations have also been held. Mr Blunt: In England and Wales in 2008 (the latest Prison Officers: Pay and Pensions year for which data are available) there were no convictions for offences under section 53 of the Regulation of 20. Jim McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Investigatory Powers Act 2000. Justice what recent discussions he has had with the Court proceedings data for 2009 are planned for Prison Officers Association on pay and pensions of publication on 21 October 2010. Court proceedings prison officers. [9432] data for 2010 are planned for publication in autumn of Mr Blunt: None. Pay for prison officers falls within 2011. the remit of the Prison Service Pay Review Body and pension issues are discussed centrally on a collective Convictions: Fly-tipping basis by the Cabinet Office with the Council of Civil Service Unions. Regular meetings are held by the National Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Offender Management Service with the Prison Officers’ Justice how many people have been (a) arrested for Association on a range of other issues. and (b) convicted of offences related to fly-tipping in each London borough since 1997. [8794] Court Cases: Adjournment Mr Blunt: Information on the number of people 21. Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for arrested for fly-tipping is not held centrally. Data held Justice what proportion of cases in magistrates and by the Home Office covers arrests for notifiable offences Crown courts were subject to an adjournment in the only and offences relating to fly-tipping under the latest period for which figures are available. [9434] Environmental Protection Act 1990 sections 33(6), 33(8), 33(9) and 34 cannot be separately identified. Offences Mr Djanogly: In March 2010, an estimated 60% of all under Section 59 of Environmental Protection Act 1990 defendants dealt with in criminal proceedings in the are not notifiable offences and do not form a part of the magistrates courts were subject to one or more arrests collection. adjournments. In the first quarter of 2010, around 70% of all cases dealt with in the Crown court were The number of persons convicted of offences related subject to one or more adjournments. Courts will adjourn to fly-tipping and waste duty of care offences under a case for a range of reasons in particular for trial or sections 33(6), 33(8), 33(9), 34 and 59 of the Environmental sentence. Protection Act 1990 in the Metropolitan and City of London Police Force Area for the years 1997 to 2008 is My hon. Friend’s question highlights an important shown in the following table. Information held centrally point namely that an efficient court system is more than does not allow a breakdown of cases by borough of a question of the number of courts it is also an issue of London area, therefore Metropolitan and City of London effective procedure and I can advise my hon. Friend Police Force Area data has been provided in lieu. Court that we are looking at procedure—including the timing proceedings data for 2009 are planned for publication of pleas and the related payment of legal aid and the on 21 October 2010. question of which court hears the case with the associated delay possibilities. In addition the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs publishes data on Fly-tipping submitted by local authorities to the National Fly-tipping Asylum Database (Flycapture). This information, published on a financial year basis from 2004-05 onwards, includes Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for data relating to prosecutions for Fly-tipping and waste Justice how many asylum claimants who had been duty of care offences and is available on the DEFRA represented by Refugee and Migrant Justice as at 30 website at: June 2010 have been allocated to alternative legal http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/local/flytipping/ representatives since that date. [10032] flycapture-data.htm Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission has Persons found guilty at all courts for ’fly-tipping’1, London2 1997 to 20073,4 agreed a plan of action with BDO, the administrator. Number Accurate up to date figures will be provided by BDO 1997 38 but are not available at this time. Good progress is being 1998 38 made with regard to alternative providers indicating 1999 54 that they can take cases. 2000 72 2001 107 Convictions: Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2002 161 2000 2003 202 2004 301 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2005 288 how many people received a criminal conviction for 2006 473 offences under section 53 of the Regulation of 2007 336 227W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 228W
Persons found guilty at all courts for ’fly-tipping’1, London2 1997 to 20073,4 Courts Number
2008 177 1 Covers offences under sections 33(6),33(8),33(9),34 and 59 of the Environmental Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Protection Act 1990. which (a) Crown and (b) magistrates courts are served 2 Includes the Metropolitan Police and City of London police force areas. 3 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were by which prisons. [8614] the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum Mr Blunt: Details of the courts served by which penalty is the most severe. prisons are held centrally and to provide this information 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted on every prison that serves the 91 Crown courts and the from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police 330 magistrates courts could be provided only at forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection disproportionate cost. processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: However, the following table shows the courts served Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice by certain prisons in the hon. Member’s constituency.
Prisons that serve courts in West Yorkshire (dependant on type of prisoner) Courts in West Young adult (males) aged 18 All females (include adults, Yorkshire Adults (males) and 21 Juvenile (males) young adults or juveniles)
Bingley Magistrates Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Court Bradford Magistrates Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Court Bradford Crown Court Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Dewsbury Magistrates Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Court Halifax MC Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Huddersfield Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Magistrates Court Leeds Magistrates Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Court Leeds Crown Court Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Pontefract Magistrates Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Court’ Court Wakefield Magistrates Sent to HMP Leeds Sent to HMP Doncaster Sent to HMYOI Wetherby Sent to HMYOI New Hall Court
Courts: Fines HMCS is currently implementing the ‘Criminal Compliance and Enforcement Services—A Blueprint for 2008 to 2012’ which was launched in July 2008 and is Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for currently being implemented by all of the HMCS regions. Justice how much was outstanding in unpaid fines and The blueprint sets out HMCS’s strategic objective which other financial penalties to the courts at the end of is for a cheaper, faster and more proportionate system each of the last five years. [8604] that primarily focuses on ’first time’ compliance while continuing to apply the principles of rigorous enforcement Mr Djanogly: The amount of financial penalties to the hard core of defaulters. outstanding at the end of each of the last five years is tabled as follows: Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he plans to take to reduce the £ number of fines and other financial penalties uncollected by Her Majesty’s Court Service. [8605] 2005-06 474,292,175 2006-07 486,597,240 Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts Service has in 2007-08 500,630,569 place a strategy to increase the success of compliance 2008-09 544,890,624 with court orders particularly with regard to financial penalties—the Criminal Compliance and Enforcement 2009-10 588,475,303 Services Blueprint. This was launched in July 2008 and is being implemented across HMCS. The blueprint sets The outstanding balance has risen through the out HMCS’s strategic objective for enforcement which application of a strict policy that only allows fines to be is for a cheaper, faster and more proportionate system written off in certain circumstances. The outstanding that primarily focuses on ‘first time’ compliance while balance includes fines imposed a number of years ago continuing to apply the principles of rigorous enforcement during the period when fines could not be cancelled to the hard core of defaulters. The blueprint implementation (2004-06) and fines which are being paid by instalments. ensures greater use of the sanctions available under the The national payment rate for financial penalties at Courts Act 2003 and extended methods of payment. the end of the 2008-09 financial year was 85% and Performance in relation to the collection of financial 71% excluding the value of administrative cancellations. penalties is being closely monitored across all areas of 229W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 230W
HMCS and any area where performance is below target Chester is being challenged by a central team who will assist the Chesterfield area in identifying areas for improvement and set targets City of London for increased collection. Coventry In the 2009-10 financial year HMCS collected £12.5 Croydon million (5%) more cash against financial penalties than Cwmbran in the 2008-09 year. Derby Courts: Video Equipment Doncaster Dudley Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Ealing (1) which (a) Crown and (b) magistrates courts have Enfield video links to which prisons; [8615] Exeter (2) what the monetary cost to his department was the Folkestone installation of video link equipment in each (a) Gateshead Crown, (b) magistrates court and (c) prison in which Grantham such equipment has been installed; and if he will make Great Yarmouth a statement. [8616] Greenwich Mr Blunt: At present, there are 30 Crown courts and Grimsby 155 magistrates courts that have video links. Any of Guildford these courts can connect via video link with any prisons Halifax that also have this system installed. Details of all the Haringey courts and prisons equipped with video link are shown Harlow in the following lists. Harrogate The Ministry of Justice funds the video conferencing Hartlepool service. I will write to the hon. Member to provide details of the cost to the Department for installing the Harwich video link equipment. Hastings Magistrates courts with video link Haverfordwest Haywards Heath Aberystwyth Hemel Hempstead Accrington Hereford Barnsley Highbury Corner Barnstaple Hillingdon/Uxbridge Barrow-in-Furness Horseferry Road Basildon Huddersfield Basingstoke Hull Bedford Ipswich Bedlington Leamington Spa Beverley Leeds Birkenhead Leicester Birmingham Lincoln Birmingham Youth Liverpool Blackpool Liverpool Youth Bodmin Llandrindod Wells Bootle/S. Sefton Llandudno Bootle/S. Sefton Youth Llanelli Bournemouth Loughborough Bradford Luton Brecon Maidstone Brent Manchester Bridgend Manchester Crown Brighton Bristol Manchester Youth Bromley Mansfield Caerphilly Merthyr Tydfil Camberwell Green Middlesbrough (Teesside) Cambridge Milton Keynes Cannock Neath Cardiff Newcastle upon Tyne Carlisle Newport (Gwent) Chatham Newport, Isle of Wight 231W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 232W
Newton Aycliffe Worcester North Shields Workington Northampton Worthing Norwich Wrexham Nottingham Yo rk Nuneaton Crown courts with video link Oxford Birmingham Peterborough Blackfriars Peterlee Bradford Plymouth Bristol Poole Cardiff Portsmouth Carlisle Prestatyn Central Criminal Preston Inner London Reading Kingston Redbridge Leeds Redhill Leicester St Albans Liverpool St Helens Luton Scunthorpe Maidstone Sheffield Manchester Shrewsbury Newcastle Skegness Nottingham Slough Portsmouth Solihull Preston South Shields Reading South Western Sheffield Southampton Snaresbrook Southend Southampton Staines Southwark Stevenage St Albans Stoke Stoke on Trent Stratford/Newham Swansea Stroud Teesside (Middlesbrough) Sudbury Wolverhampton Sunderland Prisons with video link Sutton Coldfield HMP Altcourse Swansea HMYOI Ashfield Swindon HMP Bedford Tameside/Ashton HMP Belmarsh Tamworth HMP Birmingham Taunton HMP Blakenhurst Telford HMYOI Brinsford Thames HMP Bristol Torquay HMP Brixton Tower Bridge HMP Brockhill Truro HMP Bronzefield Wakefield HMP Bullingdon, Walsall HMP Cardiff Waltham Forest HMYOI Castington Warley HMP Chelmsford Warrington HMP Doncaster Wellingborough HMP Dorchester West London HMP Durham Weymouth HMP Eastwood Park Wigan HMP Elmley Wimbledon HMYOI Exeter Witham HMPYOI Feltham Wolverhampton HMP Forest Bank 233W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 234W
HMYOI Glen Parva centrally and obtaining this information would incur a HMP Gloucester disproportionate cost. Civil servants attending the event HMP Highdown will, however, have followed the Ministry’s travel and HMP Hindley subsistence guidelines. HMP Holloway Gary Critchley HMP Holme House HMP Hull Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for HMYOI Lancaster Farms Justice whether his Department or its predecessor has HMP Leeds had discussions with the Criminal Cases Review HMP Leicester Commission on the case of Gary Critchley since its HMP Lewes inception. [8845] HMP Lincoln Mr Blunt: There is no record of Ministers or officials HMP Liverpool from the Ministry of Justice, or its predecessors, having HMP Low Newton any discussions with the Criminal Cases Review HMP Manchester Commission, since its inception, about the case of Gary HMYOI New Hall Critchley. The Commission is independent in its HMP Norwich consideration of cases and it would be inappropriate for HMYOI Norwich Ministers to comment or intervene on individual cases. HMP Nottingham Industrial Health and Safety HMP Parc HMP Parkhurst Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for HMP Pentonville Justice what risk assessment tools are used by the (a) HMP Peterborough National Probation Service and (b) Prison Service. HMP Preston [9455] HMYOI Reading HMP Shrewsbury Mr Blunt: The principal risk assessment tool used HMYOI Stoke Heath across the probation service and prison service is the Offender Assessment System (OASys). OASys includes HMP Styal two predictors of reoffending, the OASys General HMP Swansea reoffending Predictor (OGP) and the OASys Violence HMP Wandsworth Predictor (OVP), and a separate risk of serious harm HMYOI Wetherby component focusing upon the likelihood of life-threatening HMP Winchester and/or traumatic events. For those offenders who are HMP Woodhill not assessed through OASys, the Offender Group HMP Wormwood Scrubs Reconviction Scale version 3 (OGRS 3) provides a prediction of proven reoffending within one and two years. Departmental Civil Servants Other tools are used for particular groups of offenders. The Spousal Abuse Risk Assessment (SARA) is frequently Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for used with those convicted of domestic violence. Risk Justice how many employees of his Department Matrix 2000 (RM2000) is used across both prison and attended Civil Service Live in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and probation services to estimate likelihood of sexual and (c) 2010; and what estimate he has made of the (i) violent reoffending risk among men with a history of employee working hours taken up by and (ii) cost to his sexual offending; this is a static risk scale which informs Department of such attendance in each such year. decisions about appropriate intensity of treatment and [9054] management. Also for sex offenders undergoing treatment programmes, the Structured Assessment of Risk and Mr Kenneth Clarke: Civil Service Live events are Need (SARN) is used to guide treatment, report on the owned and managed by the private company DODS impact of treatment and determine future supervision (the publishers of Civil Service World), who bear all of needs. For long-term, violent, prisoners, tools such as the related financial risks. the Historical Clinical and Risk management 20 (HCR-20), The overall delegate numbers for Civil Service Live in Violence Risk Scale (VRS), and Psychopathy Check 2008, 2009 and 2010 were approximately 6,000, 8,000 List Revised (PCL-R) may also be used in order to and 7,700 respectively. Delegate registration is managed guide risk assessment and treatment approaches. centrally by Dods. The Ministry of Justice does not keep a central record of every member of staff that Magistrates attends, or the amount of employee working hours taken up by attendance. Obtaining this information Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for would incur a disproportionate cost. Justice under what budget headings he calculated his Civil servants do not pay to attend Civil Service Live estimate of £123,555 for the running costs of Wisbech events. There will have been some travel and subsistence magistrates court in 2009-10. [9408] costs for delegates, which will be paid for by the department. Travel and subsistence costs relating specifically to Mr Djanogly: The 2009-10 operating costs for Wisbech attendance at Civil Service Live events are not held magistrates court includes the following: 235W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 236W
rates; The figures are taken from Table 1 of the Ministry of property services; Justice Statistics bulletin “Population in custody monthly IT services; tables May 2010 England and Wales” and available at fuel and utilities; the following website: service costs; http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ populationincustody.htm telecoms; and These figures have been drawn from administrative maintenance. IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Non-molestation Orders and processing.
Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prison Service: Manpower how many (a) arrests, (b) prosecutions and (c) convictions of (i) men and (ii) women who have been in Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for breach of a non-molestation injunction order there Justice (1) how many staff in HM Prison Service have have been since the coming into force of the provisions transferred to work in the National Probation Service of the Domestic Violence Crime and Victims Act 2004. since the creation of the National Offender [8556] Management Service; [9456] (2) how many staff of the National Probation Mr Blunt: The information requested on arrests is Service have transferred to work in the Prison Service not collected centrally. The arrests collection held by since the creation of the National Offender the Home Office covers arrests for recorded crime (notifiable Management Service. [9771] offences) only, broken down at a main offence group level, covering categories such as violence against the Mr Blunt: Information on the leaving destination of person and sexual offences. From these centrally reported staff in the HM Prison Service and in Probation Trusts data it is not possible to identify specific offences from is collected centrally but not in enough detail to provide within the main offence groups. figures on the number of staff transferring between the Information on prosecutions and convictions of those two services. who breach the terms of their injunction is not currently available. Statisticians in the Ministry of Justice are Prison Service: Probation Service currently undertaking a programme of work which aims to provide reliable statistics on such cases in the Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for future. Justice how much has flowed from (a) the Prison Service budget to the probation budget and (b) from Offences Against Children: Foster Care the probation budget to the Prison Service budget in each of the 10 regional offender management areas in each of the last five years. [9457] Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many foster parents have been (a) Mr Blunt: There have been no budget flows between investigated for, (b) charged with and (c) convicted of prisons and probation in the last five years. child cruelty offences in each of the last five years. [9346] Prisoners: Drugs
Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice does not centrally Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice hold details on investigations, or whether the defendant what his most recent estimate is of the number of (a) was related to the victim other than where the offence is drug and (b) alcohol-dependent prisoners in the prison specified separately in law. It is therefore not possible to population in England and Wales. [9580] identify from prosecutions or convictions for cruelty to or neglect of children, those which relate to foster Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service parents. (NOMS) estimates that on average 55% of those entering prison are drug dependent. The number who are physically Prison Sentences dependent on alcohol, which can be defined as those who need alcohol detoxification, are estimated to be Mr Straw: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice around 15% of males and 12% of females. what proportion of the prison population in England Drug and alcohol treatment need in prisons is determined and Wales was comprised of prisoners sentenced to (a) on a local basis. Central estimates of treatment need are six months imprisonment or less and (b) between six reliant on epidemiological surveys. The figures above and 12 months on the latest date for which information are derived primarily from an Office for National Statistics is available. [8982] (ONS) report1 which followed a large psychiatric survey of morbidity among prisoners2 in 1997. Mr Blunt: As at 31 May 2010 there were 4,626 and A more recent source of information regarding 3,227 prisoners serving sentences of less than six months prevalence of substance misuse among sentenced and six months to less than 12 months respectively. prisoners is “The problems and needs of newly sentenced These groups represent 5.4% and 3.8% respectively of prisoners: results from a national survey” published by the total prison population which was 85,018 at 31 May the Ministry of Justice in October 2008. Although this 2010. did not look specifically at drug or alcohol dependency, 237W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 238W it did show 62% of prisoners reporting some drug use Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State and 36% reporting heavy drinking in the four weeks for Justice pursuant to the answer to the right hon. before custody. Member for Delyn of 6 July 2010, Official Report, In 2009-10, a total of 60,067 prisoners received a columns 171-4W, on prison sentences, in respect of clinical intervention for drug dependency. Equivalent how many of the offences listed in the answer the figures for alcohol were last collated centrally in 2002-03, available sentences have been reviewed by the when an estimated 6,400 prisoners undertook an alcohol Sentencing Guidelines Council. [9384] detoxification and an estimated 7,000 more prisoners undertaking detoxification for combined alcohol and Mr Blunt: Of the 116 offences and offence groupings drug misuse. listed 51 are covered by offence-specific guidelines issued 1 Singleton, N., Farrell, M. and Meltzer, H. (1998) “Substance by the Sentencing Guidelines Council. In a further eight misuse among prisoners in England and Wales”. Office for National offence groupings in the list there are offence-specific Statistics. guidelines issued by the Sentencing Guidelines Council 2 Office for National Statistics (1997), “Psychiatric morbidity that cover some offences within the grouping. among prisoners”. Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Prisoners: Per Capita Costs for Justice (1) what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Law Officers, (b) the Chancellor of the Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Exchequer and (c) the Secretary of State for the Home Justice what assessment he has made of the annual cost Department on the use of sentences of less than six to the public purse of detaining a person in prison months; [9385] compared with the cost of such people serving (2) what recent discussions he has had with (a) the community sentences. [9446] Lord Chief Justice, (b) the Sentencing Council for Mr Blunt: In 2008-09, the annual cost per prisoner England and Wales, (c) the Crown Prosecution Service was £41,000. It is not currently possible to separate the and (d) representatives of criminal justice non- cost of supervising offenders on community sentences governmental organisations on the use of sentences of as probation caseloads also include significant numbers less than six months. [9386] of offenders that have been released from a custodial sentence or released temporarily into the community. Mr Blunt: As part of his introduction to his new role, Work is in hand in the National Offender Management my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice Service to ensure that all offender services delivered in and Lord Chancellor (Kenneth Clarke) has had discussions custody and in the community are properly specified with a wide range of Cabinet colleagues and representatives and costed so that commissioners can ensure resources from the criminal justice system, which have touched on are targeted effectively to protect the public and reduce many issues. Short custodial sentences will be considered reoffending. as part of our full assessment of sentencing policy and we will be seeking the views of sentencers and others as Our future plans for, and the balance of expenditure part of that exercise. between, custodial and community provision will need to be considered in light of the assessment of sentencing Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State and work on new approaches to rehabilitation. for Justice pursuant to the answer to the right hon. Sentencing Member for Delyn of 6 July 2010, Official Report, columns 171-74W, on prison sentences, which of the Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State offences listed in the answer for which custodial for Justice what research from (a) internal and (b) sentences of six months or fewer were given he is external sources his Department has (i) commissioned considering for community-based sentences. [9387] and (ii) evaluated on the effectiveness of sentences of less than six months. [9383] Mr Blunt: We believe that prison is essential for serious offenders. But community sentences can be Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice produces re-offending more effective in promoting rehabilitation and reducing rates. 65.3% of those released from sentences of less reoffending. We are carrying out a full assessment of than six months in the first quarter of 2008 re-offended sentencing policy and will set out our proposals in a within 12 months. In terms of community sentences, Green Paper in the autumn. the proportion of offenders commencing a court order Under current legislation, a community order is available who committed a re-offence in 2008 was 36.1%. Differences for adults as a sentence for any imprisonable offence, between the offenders that receive different sentences except those for which the sentence is fixed by law, mean comparisons with other forms of disposal cannot where the offending is serious enough to warrant a be made using these raw figures. However, the Department community sentence. The law also makes it clear that is currently working on a more sophisticated analysis of even if the offending is so serious that custody is justified, re-offending rates to control for differences between mitigating factors can allow the court to impose a those sent to prison and other offenders. The results will community sentence. Within statutory limits, the sentence be published in late November. imposed in any individual case is entirely a matter for Aside from this the Ministry of Justice has not the court. commissioned or evaluated any evidence specifically on the effectiveness of sentences of less than six months. Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State The Ministry of Justice is conducting further analysis for Justice what recent advice he has received on the to support the current sentencing review. This will be appropriateness of community sentences; and if he will published alongside the review’s proposals. make a statement. [9388] 239W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 240W
Mr Blunt: Published statistics suggest that community Mr Blunt: Information collected centrally by the Ministry sentences can be more effective than short prison sentences of Justice on the Court Proceedings Database does not in reducing reoffending. separately identify offences under the War Crimes Act 1991. A community sentence is not a soft option. It can Genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes are combine tough punishment with changing offenders’ recorded as murder or ancillary offences. behaviour and making amends. It can also encourage the offender to deal with any problems that might be making them commit crime, such as drug or alcohol misuse. The failure to deal effectively with the root ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE causes of an individual’s offending and the excessive Carbon Emissions use of imprisonment often just delays further offending when that person is released from prison, having been further influenced by exposure to more serious offenders. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish We are conducting a full assessment of sentencing his Department’s implementation plans for achieving a policy to ensure that it is effective in deterring crime, 20 per cent. year reduction in carbon dioxide emissions protecting the public, punishing offenders and cutting from its estate over the next 12 months. [9579] re-offending. Community sentences will be considered as part of that assessment and we will be asking judges Gregory Barker: My right hon. Friend the Prime and magistrates for their views on which are effective. Minister committed central Government Departments to reduce carbon emissions from energy use in their Tribunals: Disability Living Allowance buildings by 10% in the first 12 months of this Government. As set out in a previous answer I gave to the hon. Phil Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) on (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to the public 7 July 2010, Official Report, column 337W, DECC will purse of appeals and tribunals relating to disability play its part by adopting further technological measures living allowance in respect of (a) adults and (b) and involving building users in additional behaviour children with autism in each of the last 10 years; [8644] change to deliver the required savings. It is expected (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the that all departments will make further information about public purse of appeals and tribunals relating to the measures they intend to take to reduce emissions disability living allowance in each of the last 10 years. available on their websites in due course. [8749] Departmental Official Cars Mr Djanogly: The First-tier Tribunal (Social Security and Child Support) does not record disability living Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance (DLA) appeals by the age of the appellant or Energy and Climate Change how much his by their disability and cannot, therefore, provide the Department has spent on the Government Car Service cost of specific case types. This information could be since the Government took office. [7977] provided only at disproportionate cost by manually checking individual appeal files. In addition, the First-tier Gregory Barker: In the two month period from 12 May, Tribunal (Social Security and Child Support) destroys the date when the full ministerial portfolio was announced, appeal files six months after the conclusion of a case, to 12 July the Department has spent £47,584.71 on the so, for the majority of the period requested by the hon. Government Car Service. Member, information is no longer available. Departmental Regulations The Tribunals Service was created in 2006 and can provide figures only from this date. Prior to this, the Appeals Service, an agency of the Department for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (DWP) was responsible for the Energy and Climate Change which of his appeals system. The DWP is unable to provide any Department’s regulations are under review; and if he data. will make a statement. [7155] The cost of DLA appeals is shown in the following Gregory Barker: DECC are actively engaged in adopting table: the principles of regulation of the coalition Government. As part of this work all policies inherited by the last Cost (£) Government and yet to be implemented are being reviewed. 2009-10 14,879,189 Lord Marland has also written to DECC stakeholders 2008-09 19,577,782 asking for their views on possible existing or planned 2007-08 20,489,002 DECC regulations that may be simplified or repealed. I 2006-07 22,420,022 will consider the need for a statement once the review has been finalised.
War Crimes Departmental Responsibilities
Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for how many (a) men and (b) women have been Energy and Climate Change when he expects to prosecuted under section 1 of the War Crimes Act 1991 publish his Department’s Structural Reform Plan. in each year since the Act entered into force. [R] [8573] [10150] 241W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 242W
Gregory Barker: The Department is planning to publish National Grid: Security its Structural Reform Plan when we make the Annual Energy Statement to Parliament at the end of this Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy month. and Climate Change (1) if he will discuss with Departmental Secondment Ministerial colleagues the introduction in the UK of grid protection measures similar to those in the US Grid Reliability and Infrastructure Defense Bill; and if Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for he will make a statement; [9320] Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to take to increase the number of officials seconded from (2) if he will seek advice from the US administration his Department to the EU institutions. [9284] on the means of implementing in the UK current proposals for grid protection in the US; and if he will Gregory Barker: We are currently recruiting two make a statement. [9321] European Fast streamers in DECC (due for entry September 2010). As the Cabinet Office guidance states Charles Hendry: The protection and resilience of the the purpose of these roles is to develop the capacity of Critical National Infrastructure (CNI), which underpins the fast streamers to be successful in applications and the delivery of essential services to our citizens, is taken assessment to posts in the European Commission. very seriously across Government. The Department of Additionally we are about to support an interchange Energy and Climate Change (DECC) works closely agreement to the European Commission’s Climate Action with the Centre for the Protection of Critical National Team 50% funded by DECC and 50% funded by the Infrastructure (CPNI) and the energy industry to ensure Department for Transport. an integrated approach to protective security in the sector, by means of physical, cyber, and personnel security Departmental Training measures which are appropriate and proportionate to the risk. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s Cyber Security Strategy of the Energy and Climate Change what training has been United Kingdom, published alongside and reflected in provided for Ministers in his Department since the the National Security Strategy update of June 2009, formation of the present administration; and at what considers a range of methods of cyber attacks. It also cost. [6440] outlined new governance structures and workstreams which are now building on existing work to take forward Gregory Barker: I refer the hon. Member to the the Government’s plan for reducing the impact on and answer given by my right hon. Friend the Member for vulnerability of the UK’s interests from cyber attacks. Horsham (Mr Maude) to the hon. Member for West The Government are building upon this work and have Bromwich East (Mr Watson) on 3 June 2010, Official already discussed the importance of proportionate Report, columns 51-52W. The National School of protection for cyber attacks within the newly formed Government is funded through its Core Learning National Security Council, at which the SoS for Energy Programme to deliver induction and other training to and Climate Change was present. Ministers and there is no separate charge to Departments. DECC works closely with the UK’s energy sector to consider the impacts to energy supplies of a range of Energy hazards and threats, including solar flares and electromagnetic pulse (EMP). Together with CPNI and the Edward Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for Office of Cyber Security (OCS) we identify and mitigate Energy and Climate Change when he expects to vulnerabilities in the national infrastructure that could announce the national policy statement on energy. be exploited by such threats, including cyber threats, [8613] and share best practice across the CNI. We continually assess the risks we identify, determine proportionate Charles Hendry: I refer the hon. Member to my mitigations where necessary, and regularly test our responses statement to the House of 15 July 2010, Official Report, through national and international exercises. column 40WS. CPNI provides advice on electronic or cyber protective Energy: Public Buildings security measures to the businesses and organisations that comprise the UK’s critical national infrastructure, including public utilities, companies and financial centres. Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for CPNI also provides a Response Service which responds Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to to reported attacks on private sector networks. Indeed, encourage the use of heat pumps in Government if a cyber security breach impacts an energy utility buildings, including the implementation of air source company’s operational capability leading to security of and ground source heat pumps, in order to reduce supply concerns, the Government have existing procedures energy costs. [9681] (including my Department’s emergency response plans) and existing powers (including, where appropriate, Gregory Barker: Government Departments will need emergency powers under the Energy Act 1976) to intervene. to make an assessment of where air source and ground source heat pumps can play a cost-effective part in We are keen to discuss these proposals with US delivering their energy use and emissions reductions to counterparts, and have an ongoing interest to learn meet the central Government 10% emissions reduction from our allies and their approaches to national security. target, alongside other technologies and energy efficiency DECC does not, or course, have responsibility for the measures. resilience of sites critical to the UK national defence, 243W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 244W one of the aspects of this particular Act. I can confirm, quality, making results widely available and regularly however, that my colleague, the Secretary of State for evaluating the outputs of the programme. The strategy Defence, has robust defences and continuity arrangements is available at: in place to maintain the integrity of all sites critical to www.nda.gov.uk/aboutus/geological-disposal/ the defence of the United Kingdom. documentation.cfm Furthermore, the independent Committee on Radioactive Radioactive Waste: Waste Management Waste Management (CoRWM) reported on the current provision and future R&D needs for the Managing Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Radioactive Waste Safely programme in 2009. Government Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has are currently considering this report and will be responding had with the Chairman and Chief Executive of the shortly. Copies of this response will be placed into the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) on Libraries of the House. funding the programme of work set out in the recently published NDA report on nuclear waste management, Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Geological Disposal: Steps towards implementation. Energy and Climate Change what cost recovery [9149] arrangements the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is applying to the agreement made in June 2010 with Charles Hendry: Ministers have regular discussions the Nuclear Industry Association on behalf of with the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) potential new build operators to undertake initial which cover all aspects, including resources and financial feasibility studies to investigate (a) consideration of performance, of the decommissioning and clean-up of alternative geological disposal facility design options the UK’s public civil nuclear sites including the geological for new build spent fuel, (b) issue associated with disposal of higher activity radioactive waste. centralised spent fuel storage, (c) issues associated The Government welcome the Nuclear Decommissioning with centralised spent fuel packaging and (d) Authority’s (NDA) report “Geological Disposal: Steps consideration of alternative spent fuel cask designs; towards implementation”. Government are committed and what the monetary value is of the contract. [9151] to ensuring implementation of geological disposal of higher activity radioactive waste, coupled with safe and Charles Hendry: The Nuclear Decommissioning secure interim storage and a geological disposal facility Authority’s Radioactive Waste Management Directorate siting process based on voluntarism and partnership. (RWMD) has a contract in place to allow all costs Tackling the nuclear legacy is a high priority and we incurred from these initial feasibility studies to be paid are committed to securing the funding necessary to by the Nuclear Industry Association (NIA). maintain safety and make progress with decommissioning. The value of the initial feasibility studies contract to Funding for 2011-12 will be dealt with through the be reimbursed to RWMD is £110,000. The contract, spending review process but implementation of geological which is for the provision of advice, allows for other disposal is necessarily a long term programme and future work to be contracted by the NIA to the RWMD. investment will be incurred over a period of many The total value of the current contract which could be decades. Government are committed to a process that is drawn upon in the future for follow-on studies is £500,000. staged and allows costs and value for money to be assessed at various points as the programme proceeds. Renewable Energy Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he last made an Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment of the value for money and relevance of the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Nuclear Decommissioning Authority’s Radioactive made of the effectiveness of the provisions of the EU Waste Management Directorate research and Renewable Energy Directive in supporting the use of development programme in support of delivery of waste bioliquids under the renewables obligation; and if he will make a statement. [8549] Managing Radioactive Waste Safely plans. [9150]
Charles Hendry: Government are committed to ensuring Charles Hendry: The renewable energy directive considers implementation of geological disposal of higher activity bioliquids derived from waste to have zero life cycle radioactive waste, coupled with safe and secure interim greenhouse gas emissions up to the point at which the storage and ongoing research and development (R&D) fuel is collected or processed. Some wastes are exempt to support its optimised implementation. The from the land-based criteria designed to protect land implementation process is staged and allows costs and with high biodiversity, land protected for nature value for money to be assessed at various points as the conservation purposes and land with a high carbon programme proceeds. stock. Following consultation, the Nuclear Decommissioning We intend to amend the Renewables Obligation Order Authority’s Radioactive Waste Management Directorate to incorporate the sustainability criteria for bioliquids published its ‘Research and Development Strategy to in compliance with the renewable energy directive. underpin Geological Disposal’ in March 2009. This sets out how a needs-driven R&D programme will be delivered Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for in a way that ensures both quality and value for money. Energy and Climate Change what percentage of the This includes procuring R&D services through a competitive UK energy supply comes from renewable generation; tender process, proactively managing R&D activities, and what the equivalent figure is projected to be (a) in using internal and external review to ensure technical each of the next five years and (b) in 2020. [9328] 245W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 246W
Charles Hendry: Overall UK energy consumption As we announced in ‘The Coalition: our programme from renewables was 2.3% in 2008 (the latest data for government’, we are seeking the advice of the Committee available). The Digest of United Kingdom Energy Statistics on Climate Change on whether it will be possible to (DUKES) 2010, giving 2009 data, will be published at increase our ambitions for renewable energy. We will the end of July. make decisions on whether to set any new targets for Projections of the share of renewable energy in final renewable energy in light of this work. energy consumption under the EU renewable energy Wind Power: Planning Permission directive definition for 2010-14 and 2020 are given in the table. These are based on June 2010 Updated Energy and Emissions Projections published on the DECC Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for website. Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward proposals to (a) limit the maximum height of wind Projected renewable energy as percentage of final energy consumption turbines and (b) introduce a proximity rule on (RED) definition applications for wind farms sited close to residential Percentage areas. [9809] 2010 2.9 2011 3.4 Charles Hendry: There are currently no plans to 2012 4.0 bring forward measures to limit the height of wind 2013 4.8 turbines or introduce a proximity rule. The assessment 2014 5.9 of an application to develop a wind farm already includes, 2020 15.2 among other things, an analysis of visual and landscape Source: impacts to ascertain whether the location and height of DECC June 2010 updated Energy and Emissions Projections the wind farm is acceptable. The Government consider that these impacts are best assessed on a case by case Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy basis so that local factors can be taken fully into account, and Climate Change if he will take steps to implement regardless of whether applications are dealt with at the recommendations of the National Audit Office national or local level. Where applications are dealt report on Government funding for developing with at local level, we believe that councils should have renewable energy technologies, HC35. [9373] the opportunity to decide these matters on behalf of their local community. Charles Hendry: I welcome the National Audit Office (NAO) report on Government funding for developing renewable energy technologies. We are currently drawing up plans to implement the recommendations in the WOMEN AND EQUALITIES report. Action has already been taken within the Departmental Location Department in response to its Capability Review, and this addresses some of the NAO’s recommendations. Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Equalities whether she plans to relocate civil servants Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to working for the Government Equalities Office (a) out introduce local targets for the generation of renewable of London and (b) to the West Midlands; and if she energy; and if he will make a statement. [9449] will make a statement. [8291]
Gregory Barker: We are committed to a radical Lynne Featherstone: The Minister for Women and devolution of power and financial autonomy to local Equalities is not proposing to relocate civil servants government and community groups. The future of local working for the Government Equalities Office (GEO) area agreements will be considered in this context and out of London or to the West Midlands. GEO is a very we will make a further announcement in due course. small policy Department working closely with Ministers in London. Tackling climate change is one of our top priorities and we want to see communities and individuals owning Equal Pay: Gender a stake in our collective low-carbon future. For example we want communities to directly benefit from wind farms they host. This is why we will allow councils to Yvette Cooper: To ask the Minister for Women and keep the additional business rates paid by wind farms Equalities if she will require businesses with more than and other renewable energy generators, and support 250 employees to disclose gender pay information by communities in having a stake in appropriately sited 2013 if they have not done so already. [6907] renewable energy projects like wind farms. Mrs May [holding answer 8 July 2010]: The coalition Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy agreement makes clear the Government’s commitment and Climate Change whether he plans to revise the to promote equal pay and to take a range of measures 2009 UK renewable energy strategy to include targets to end discrimination in the workplace. for 2050. [9702] In October we will bring section 77 of the Equality Act 2010 into force, ensuring employees can discuss Gregory Barker: The 2009 UK Renewable Energy their own pay freely in order to discover whether their Strategy was designed to set out how the UK would pay is discriminatory. meet the target of achieving 15% of our energy from We are considering how the rest of the Act can be renewable sources by 2020. implemented in the best way for business. 247W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 248W
HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION consideration of further reductions will be part of a savings programme set up to identify and achieve additional Early Day Motions budget reductions over the next three years. To achieve those savings over the next three years, Priti Patel: To ask the hon. Member for some staff reductions may be needed, and the House Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons Administration will consult staff and the recognised Commission what the cost of administering and trade unions as plans are developed. processing early day motions was in each year between 1997-98 and 2008-09. [10152] House of Commons: Parking
Sir Stuart Bell: The latest estimate of the annual cost Mr Knight: To ask the hon. Member for of administering early day motions, set out in the recent Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons answer to the hon. Member for Hartlepool (14 June Commission for what reasons the cabling work was 2010), was approximately £1 million in financial year undertaken in the underground car park during a 2009-10. This included printing and publication, staff period when the House was sitting; and for what time and technical support. Figures for previous years reasons such work was not scheduled to be carried out are not readily available but there is no reason to during the summer recess. [9094] suppose that that they have altered significantly in real terms, other than that the number of EDMs tabled has Sir Stuart Bell: As part of the fire safety programme increased. a safety issue was identified in the underground car The number of EDMs tabled for each Session since park and it was decided to install, as soon as practicable, 2000-01, together with the average number tabled per equipment to monitor Carbon Monoxide levels. The sitting day to enable comparisons to be made between installation is now complete. Sessions of differing lengths, are as follows: Nurseries Total Average per sitting day Mr Chope: To ask the hon. Member for 2000-01 659 7.9 Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons 2001-02 1,864 9.3 Commission how many expressions of interest in 2002-03 1,939 12 obtaining childcare places in the House of Commons 2003-04 1,941 12.4 Nursery have been received; and how many have been 2004-05 1,033 15.9 received from (a) hon. Members, (b) hon. Members’ 2005-06 2,924 14.1 staff and (c) others who work on the Parliamentary 2006-07 2,193 15 estate. [10191] 2007-08 2,560 15.5 2008-09 2,272 16.7 Sir Stuart Bell: To date 16 people have expressed a 2009-10 1,248 18.1 firm interest in a total of 17 nursery places, broken down as follows: House of Commons Commission: Finance (a) hon. Members: six places; (b) hon. Members’ staff: four places; Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the hon. Member for (c) staff of the House or PICT (the only others who work on the Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons parliamentary estate who are entitled to apply): seven places. Commission what discussions the House of Commons Expressions of firm interest have been accepted since Commission has had on (a) its budget for 2010-11 and June. Once the nursery is registered by OFSTED, firm (b) the changes to staffing levels required to achieve expressions of interest will be able to be converted into budgetary reductions; and if he will make a statement. bookings. Occupancy rates for a new nursery build up [9450] over time: the House of Commons Nursery has been planned on this basis. Sir Stuart Bell: The Commission initially discussed and agreed a resource estimate for 2010-11 on 14 December 2009. It also decided to cut House expenditure by 9% by the end of 2012-13, and in addition to absorb the cost DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of inflation. In the light of current economic circumstances, the Commission reconsidered the proposed 2010-11 Departmental Internet Estimate on 7 June and 21 June 2010, and announced a reduction in its 2010-11 budget of 5% to £219 million Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Deputy Prime on 22 June. The initial savings will be made in various Minister what assessment he made of the merits of ways, including scaling back a number of programmes making the content of the Your Freedom website and projects by £4 million, reducing the parliamentary available in languages other than English. [8994] works programme and a freeze on all but essential recruitment. £800,000 will be cut from the budget for The Deputy Prime Minister: The goal of YourFreedom select committee travel this year and, to save a further is to allow as many people as possible to contribute £500,000, catering prices across the House will be raised. their ideas and comments in a cost-effective way. An This will bring cafeteria prices into line with benchmark assessment was made of translating the content into workplace venues and bar prices into line with a other languages but all options considered were felt to competitively-priced high street pub chain. More detailed be disproportionately expensive. 249W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 250W
Electoral Register While no recent national estimates have been made in these areas, the Electoral Commission’s more recent Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what report The Completeness and Accuracy of Electoral (a) local government and (b) central Government Registers in Great Britain (March 2010) found that, databases electoral registration officers may use in based on case study research: undertaking their registration functions. [9187] “Under-registration and inaccuracy are closely associated with the social groups most likely to move home across all seven areas Mr Harper: The information is as follows: in Phase two (therefore excluding Knowsley), under-registration (a) In Great Britain, electoral registration officers is notably higher than average among 17-24 year-olds (56% not (EROs) may currently inspect records held by the local registered), private sector tenants (49%) and black and minority authority that appointed them and by the registrar of ethnic (BME) British residents (31%)”. births and deaths (in Scotland, the registrar of births, The Government are considering options for deaths and marriages) to assist them in maintaining the implementation of individual electoral registration together electoral register. These include: with ways to maximise registration rates and will announce the register of births and deaths; its approach in due course. council tax records; Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what registers of households in multiple occupation; guidance is provided to local authority electoral local land and property gazetteers; registration officers on their use of telephone calls to housing benefit applications; increase levels of electoral registration. [9192] lists of persons in residential and care homes (in unitary local authorities only); and Mr Harper: The Electoral Commission produces details of “attainers” (those aged 16 or 17) held by education guidance for electoral registration officers (EROs) on departments (in unitary local authorities only). undertaking electoral registration. EROs appointed by district or borough councils in The Commission’s guidance highlights that it is for two tier local authority areas may therefore not have EROs to use whatever methods they decide on to maintain access to records held by county councils, including the register, bearing in mind the requirements of section data held by social services and education departments. 9A of the Representation of the People Act 1983. Each (b) EROs in Great Britain do not have access to ERO is under a duty to take all steps that are necessary central Government databases. However, in Northern to maintain their registers. Ireland a system of Individual Electoral Registration The steps that EROs must take, as set out in that has been in place since 2002, and in 2006 the annual section, include: canvass was replaced with a system of ‘continuous (a) sending more than once to any address the form to be used registration’ based on data matching the electoral register for the canvass; against other public data bases. The Chief Electoral (b) making on one or more occasions house to house inquiries; Officer in Northern Ireland is allowed to access records (c) making contact by such other means as the registration held by the following authorities: officer thinks appropriate with persons who do not have an district councils; entry in a register; the Registrar General of Births and Deaths in Northern Ireland; (d) inspecting any records held by any person which he is the Northern Ireland Central Services Agency; permitted to inspect under or by virtue of any enactment or rule of law; the Department for Work and Pensions; (e) providing training to persons under his direction or control secondary schools; and in connection with the carrying out of the duty. the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. I understand that the Commission’s guidance encourages Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what EROs to use telephones for applicants with visual estimate has been made of the proportion of (a) black impairments and to consider a telephone translation and ethnic minority people, (b) students, (c) people service for conducting the annual canvass in respect of living in social housing, (d) unemployed people and those who do not speak English. However, applicants (e) low paid people who are on the electoral register; cannot apply to be added to the electoral register by and what assessment has been made of the effects of telephone. the introduction of individual voter registration on Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what registration rates for these groups. [9190] discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: No recent national estimates have been Education and the Secretary of State for Business, made. However, the Electoral Commission found in Innovation and Skills to encourage sixth formers and their 2005 report Understanding Electoral Registration university students to register to vote. [9194] that, based on data from 2000: Mr Harper: Neither I nor the Deputy Prime Minister (a) 17% of ethnic minority individuals; have had such discussions. The Government are considering (b) 22% of students; ways to maximise registration rates in the context of the (c) 10% of those renting from a local authority and 11% of implementation of individual electoral registration and those renting from a housing association or similar; and will announce their approach in due course. (d) 18% of unemployed people were unregistered. The report does not give a specific Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister percentage for the numbers of low paid people who are which local authorities (a) used and (b) did not use unregistered, however the report did find that that: door to door canvassing for the purpose of electoral “areas with the highest levels of employment and income registration in their most recent registration exercise. deprivation had the highest levels of non-registration in 2000.” [9201] 251W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 252W
Mr Harper: Under section 9A of the Representation Voting Rights: Prisoners of the People Act 1983, electoral registration officers (EROs) have a duty to take certain steps to maintain the Steve Rotheram: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister electoral register. The steps that EROs must take, as set what progress he has made in his consideration of out in that section, include: implementation of the judgment of the European (a) sending more than once to any address the form to be used Court of Human Rights on the right of prisoners to for the canvass; vote in UK elections; and if he will make a statement. (b) making on one or more occasions house to house inquiries; [10020] (c) making contact by such other means as the registration officer thinks appropriate with persons who do not have an Mr Harper: The Government are considering afresh entry in a register; the best way forward on the issue of prisoner voting (d) inspecting any records held by any person which he is rights. permitted to inspect under or by virtue of any enactment or rule of law; (e) providing training to persons under his direction or control ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE in connection with the carrying out of the duty. The Government do not collect information on the Electoral Register steps taken by EROs. However, the Electoral Commission requests that EROs supply them with information about Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South the methods they use to canvass properties. This information West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on is supplied on a voluntary basis, and does not therefore the Electoral Commission what guidance the Electoral give a comprehensive picture. Commission has provided to electoral registration The most recent data are published in a spreadsheet officers on means of increasing electoral registration titled “The electoral registration data for 2009” on the rates among groups with low rates. [9184] Commission’s website at: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/performance- Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me standards/data-collection that it issues guidance to electoral registration officers on their statutory duties, which is available to download and includes the following headings: from its website: Number of households sent an annual canvass form www.electoralcommission.org.uk Number of households returning a canvass form by personal The Commission also publishes performance standards canvasser for electoral registration officers in Great Britain, which Number of electors added to the revised register following the include standards relating to activities to encourage 2009 annual canvass as a result of an annual canvass form registration. The Commission has also been working Number of electors on the local government register at 1 September with electoral registration officers who have fallen below 2009 the standards to improve their performance. Number of electors on the local government register at 1 December In addition, the Commission provides a range of 2009 resources for electoral registration officers to assist them in planning and conducting voter registration activities, Simon Kirby: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what which can also be downloaded from its website. steps he is taking to ensure the accuracy of the Labour Party: Finance electoral register in each constituency. [9433] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the hon. Member for South Mr Harper: Electoral registration officers (EROs) are West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on responsible for ensuring the accuracy and completeness the Electoral Commission how much funding from the of the electoral register at a local level. However, the public purse the Labour Party will receive under the Government have committed to speeding up the Policy Development Grant in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 implementation of individual electoral registration, which and (c) 2012-13. [8719] will improve the accuracy of the register in each constituency. Mr Streeter: Section 12 of the Political Parties, Elections Under individual electoral registration, people will and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA) requires the Electoral register themselves rather than be registered as part of a Commission to make payments of policy development household and will each have to provide three personal grants to eligible political parties. Eligible parties are identifiers, i.e. date of birth, signature and national those that have at least two sitting Members of the insurance number—the last of which will be cross-checked House of Commons who have taken the oath of allegiance against the Department for Work and Pensions database provided by the Parliamentary Oaths Act 1866. as assurance of identity. This will improve the accuracy The Electoral Commission informs me that the Labour of the register and its security, by ensuring that only Party can claim up to £456,612 in Policy Development those entitled to vote will get on the register. Grants for the year 2010-11. The Government are currently considering the options Figures for 2011-12 and 2012-13 are not yet available for implementation of individual electoral registration as the grant amount is determined annually on 7 March in a way that will improve levels of registration, so and is dependent on the number of sitting MPs on that people who are entitled to vote are on the register and date and the votes cast in the most recent UK wide will announce its approach to this in due course. election. 253W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 254W
TREASURY Departmental Civil Servants
Banks: Finance Graham Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many employees of his Department Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer attended Civil Service Live in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and what assessment his Department has made of the (c) 2010; and what estimate he has made of the (i) contribution to gross domestic product of the Bank of employee working hours taken up and (ii) cost to his England’s Asset Purchase Scheme in fiscal years (a) Department of such attendance in each such year. 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [7387] [9040]
Mr Hoban: The independent Monetary Policy Justine Greening: Civil Service Live events are owned Committee (MPC) of the Bank of England has operational and managed by the private company Dods (the publishers responsibility for monetary policy, including use of the of Civil Service World). Asset Purchase Facility (APF). The Bank of England The Treasury does not hold the details of individual publishes quarterly reports on the APF in addition to attendees centrally and this information could be obtained minutes of the MPC’s meetings, and a quarterly Inflation only at disproportionate cost. Report that sets out the detailed economic analysis and inflation projections on which the MPC bases its decisions. For example, analysis of the impact of the programme Departmental Secondment of asset purchases is set out on pages 12 and 13 of the May 2010 Inflation Report. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he plans to take to increase the BP: Gulf of Mexico number of officials seconded from his Department to the EU institutions. [9287] Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the effects on tax Justine Greening: As part of the Government’s drive revenues to the Exchequer of liabilities of companies to enhance the UK’s representation and voice in the EU involved in the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico in (a) institutions, HM Treasury focuses on secondments to 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. [9181] posts which have an impact in terms of UK priorities for EU economic and financial policy and delivery. Mr Gauke: It is not appropriate for the Government Placements are reviewed regularly to ensure value for to comment on the confidential tax affairs of individual money. businesses. Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation Coinage: Anniversaries Nadine Dorries: To ask the Chancellor of the Mark Pritchard: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the written ministerial Exchequer if he will discuss with the Royal Mint the statement of 26 May 2010, Official Report, columns striking of a coin to commemorate the 350th 1-2WS, on Equitable Life, what progress he has made anniversary of the Book of Common Prayer in 2012. on his plans to make fair and transparent payments to [9205] Equitable Life policyholders through an independently-designed payment scheme; and if he will Justine Greening: In his capacity as Master of the make a statement. [9726] Mint, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be considering themes for commemorative coins in 2012 in the coming months. The Royal Mint Advisory Committee will look Karen Bradley: To ask the Chancellor of the at all of the proposed options before making final Exchequer what recent progress has been made on recommendations on which themes should be selected. payment of compensation to Equitable Life policyholders; and if he will make a statement. [10016] Once he has decided the themes, the Chancellor will then submit them to Her Majesty the Queen for final Mr Hoban: Sir John Chadwick is advising the Treasury approval. on the relative losses suffered by Equitable Life policyholders A similar process is then followed in order to select in relation to those accepted cases of maladministration the actual designs that will feature on the coins. resulting in injustice. He will submit his report shortly. Departmental Billing At that time, the Government will publish Sir John’s report alongside a detailed update on the next steps towards implementing an independently designed payment Mr Anderson: To ask the Chancellor of the scheme. Exchequer what information his Department holds on the time taken by contractors employed by it to pay the invoices of their sub-contractors under prompt Housing: Rents payment arrangements; and if he will make a statement. [9254] Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the percentage change in Justine Greening: The Treasury does not hold any market rents for (a) one, (b) two, (c) three and (d) information on the time taken by contractors to pay four bedroom properties in each broad market rental sub-contractors invoices. area in each year since 2000. [10193] 255W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 256W
Mr Gauke: Broad rental market areas are subject to Employment Survey (QPSES) and external sources. The public progressive review and updating. It is not therefore sector employment figures are compiled from returns from public possible to provide estimates of market rents in each sector organisations and are considered the best estimates for year since 2000. these statistics, however these figures are not available for parliamentary constituencies. Public Sector: North East The ONS compiles employment statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS) following International Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Individuals are classified Exchequer what his most recent estimate is of the to the public or private sector according to their responses to the proportion of the working population in (a) APS. Consequently, the classification of an individual’s sector Hartlepool constituency and (b) the North East may differ from how they would be classified in QPSES statistics. employed in the public sector. [8347] Table 1, shows the number of persons employed in the public sector from the Public Sector Employment statistics in the North Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. East, along with the estimate of the number and proportion of the working age population employed in the public sector in the The information requested falls within the responsibility Hartlepool constituency from the APS for the period January of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority 2009 to December 2009. Estimates for the North East from the to reply. APS are also provided for comparison purposes. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking is given in table 1. what the most recent estimate is of the proportion of the working population in (a) Hartlepool constituency and (b) the North East National and local area estimates for many labour market employed in the public sector. (8347) statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles statistics for public sector employment from the Quarterly Public Sector http://www.nomisweb.co.uk
Table 1: Number1 and proportion of persons in employment in the public sector, resident in Hartlepool parliamentary constituency and in the North East QPSES APS January-December 2009 Number (thousand) Number (thousand) Proportion2 (%)
Hartlepool — ***9 16.4 North East 290 *323 20.2 ‘—’ Estimates are not available 1 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated as an indication of the quality of the APS estimates. See Guide to Quality below. 2 Proportion of working age population. Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes Source: Annual Population Survey (APS) and Quarterly Public Sector Employment Survey (QPSES)
Research and Development Tax Credit prices growth, earnings growth or 2.5%. Furthermore, so that pensioners are not left worse off than they Richard Burden: To ask the Chancellor of the would have been under the old price link, in 2011-12 the Exchequer what his plans are for the future of research basic state pension will receive an increase equivalent to and development tax credits. [9147] the growth in RPI, should that deliver the highest percentage increase. The following figures take into Mr Gauke: The Chancellor of the Exchequer announced account the effects of this commitment. in the Budget statement that the Government will consult These rates are estimated using the Office for Budget with business in autumn 2010 to review the taxation of Responsibility’s forecasts for growth and are consistent intellectual property, the support R&D tax credits provide with the basic state pension expenditure forecasts published for innovation and the proposals of the Dyson review. in the Budget of 22 June 2010. State Retirement Pensions The rates are indicative only as actual levels of inflation and earnings used may differ from forecasts. Actual Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the increases in benefit rates are decided once the September Exchequer what estimate he has made of the change to inflation rates are available, ahead of the annual uprating the level of the state pension following the restoration order. of the link with earnings. [4529] Level of the basic state pension, standard rate on own contributions, Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. weekly amount (£) The information requested is provided in the following table for the basic state pension. April 2011 101.85 April 2012 104.50 The Government have committed to a “triple guarantee” April 2013 107.10 of increasing the basic state pension by the highest of 257W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 258W
closure of the Listed Places of Worship Scheme in Level of the basic state pension, standard rate on own contributions, March 2011. [8244] weekly amount (£) John Penrose: I have been asked to reply. April 2014 111.30 April 2015 116.20 The Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme makes grants equivalent to the VAT incurred in making repairs to listed buildings mainly in use for worship. The scheme Sterling is currently in place until the end of March 2011. A decision on the future of the scheme can be taken only Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer as part of wider spending review discussions, and will what steps he plans to take to counter the rise of be announced as soon as possible. sterling relative to the euro and its effect on the exporting of British goods in the eurozone. [9776] VAT: Wales
Justine Greening: The Government do not target the Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer exchange rate but aims for price stability via an inflation how much was paid in value added tax by residents in target. The Government restated its full commitment to each income group in each constituency in North maintaining price stability in the Budget and the Chancellor Wales in 2009-10. [7063] confirmed that the Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) will continue to target 2% inflation, as measured by the Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. 12-month increase in the Consumer Prices Index. The information requested falls within the responsibility The Government recognise that UK businesses need of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority an environment which helps them compete in a global to reply. market place. The Budget announced a major package Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: of tax reforms to improve the UK’s competitiveness, As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I intended to give businesses the confidence to invest for have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how much the long term, and to reduce the burden of tax and was paid in value added tax by residents in each income group in regulation. each constituency in North Wales in 2009-10. (7063). Table 1 shows the average amount of VAT paid by households, VAT: Religious Buildings by equivalised disposable income decile groups in the UK in 2008/09, the latest period which data are available. An estimate for all households in Wales is provided; however data by income Sajid Javid: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer group in Wales, or by parliamentary constituency, are not available if he will take steps to ensure that listed places of due to small sample sizes. worship will be able to reclaim value added tax These estimates, as with any involving sample surveys, are incurred on repairs and maintenance following the subject to a margin of uncertainty.
Table 1: Average annual household VAT payment by equivalised disposable income decile groups1, 2008-09 £ per year Income decile group Bottom 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th Top All households
UK 1,101 1,085 1,295 1,562 1,609 1,927 2,155 2,616 2,871 3,747 1,997 Wales2 —————————— 1,788 1 Households are ranked from lowest income to highest income. This distribution is then divided into 10 groups of equal size (referred to as decile groups). The bottom decile group is the 10% of households with the lowest incomes. 2 Data by income group are not available for Wales due to small sample sizes. Source: Office for National Statistics.
INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY correct property. Only the first line of the address and STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE postcode is required for verification. IPSA uses this to match the invoice or receipt to the registered property. Members: Addresses IPSA does not store more information than necessary in the Expenses@Work system and IPSA has no plans Mr Allen: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, at present to include additional fields for addresses. representing the Speaker’s Committee for the The HR payroll system has the full address of all Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority what MPs. This address is used for correspondence. steps the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is taking to provide sufficient fields in its IT system to enable the full addresses of all hon. Members: Claims Members’ homes and offices to be (a) entered and (b) accepted. [9863] Hugh Bayley: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Mr Charles Walker: IPSA maintains address information the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in two systems, HR Payroll and Expenses@Work. Address (1) what assessment the Independent Parliamentary information in the Expenses@Work system is required Standards Authority (IPSA) has made of the to provide a check that any invoice or receipt that the administrative burden its online claims system places MP submits to IPSA for reimbursement is for the on hon. Members in terms of hours worked per month 259W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 260W compared to the paper-based claims system in use Departmental Buildings previously; and what representations IPSA has received about this matter from hon. Members; [9618] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) if the Independent Parliamentary Standards Education how many buildings his Department Authority (IPSA) will adapt its administrative systems occupies in (a) London and (b) the UK. [6856] in order to reduce the time required of hon. Members and their staff to complete expenses claims to the Tim Loughton: The Department for Education occupies minimum that is consistent with the transparency and (a) one property in London and (b) 4 in the UK. The accountability required by the Parliamentary details of the four properties are: Standards Act 2009. [9620] London Mr Charles Walker: IPSA has not conducted a review Sanctuary Buildings of the administrative burden placed on Members by the Great Smith Street online claims system in comparison with the previous London SW1P3BT paper-based system. It has received a number of Sheffield (took occupation in June 2010) representations on this matter, some indicating that the system is easier and simpler to use than expected and St Paul’s Place others that it places unreasonable burdens on Members 125 Norfolk Street and their staff. IPSA continues to review the online Sheffield system to ensure that it meets industry standards of S1 2FJ usability and accessibility, and enables the transparency Runcorn and accountability required by the Parliamentary Standards Castle View House Act. In addition, it is offering MPs one-to-one assistance East Lane with the online system. Runcorn Members: Training WA7 2DN Darlington Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Mowden Hall the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Staindrop Road for what reasons the Independent Parliamentary Darlington Standards Authority offered training to hon. Members DL3 9BG on the operation of the online system for claiming reimbursement from allowances by means of a Departmental Public Expenditure screenshot presentation rather than by means of the on-system training offered to hon. Members staff. [9814] Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the written ministerial Mr Charles Walker: IPSA took the view that screenshots statement of 26 May 2010, Official Report, columns would be sufficient to provide an initial overview of the 2-3WS, on savings (2010-11), under what budgetary system at induction. This overview could not be provided headings the £670 million of savings allocated to his using the live system because inductions were provided Department will be made. [6824] at a variety of locations convenient to MPs, not all of which had a guaranteed internet connection. MPs who Tim Loughton: The £670 million savings break down wish to have training using the live online system have as follows: been invited to contact IPSA to arrange this. They have also been welcomed to attend the same training sessions Area of spending Amount (£ million) as have been available for their staff. From a number of arm’s length 88 bodies From a range of youth budgets 60 EDUCATION Through doing things differently 133 to make efficiency improvements Charities on a range of smaller budgets Corporate services, IT and 22 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for communications budgets Education what processes apply to the issuing of grants Schools capital budgets 33 to charities by his Department. [5509] Reducing bureaucracy 23 Area based grants: detail being 311 Tim Loughton: Since the formation of the Department determined through spending for Education no new grant programmes to charities, review social enterprises and the voluntary and community Total 670 sector have been announced. All grant programmes administered by the predecessor Department, the While many of the savings are being achieved through Department for Children, Schools and Families, were doing things more cheaply and efficiently than previously, run in accordance with Compact principles. The others have yet to be finally determined, and there is Department for Education is committed to adhering to more work to be done to finalise the details. The thinking the Compact principles in the consideration and is being fleshed out in the course of the spending review administration of any future grant programmes. work now in hand. 261W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 262W
Departmental Reorganisation Tim Loughton: It is not possible to estimate the cost to the Department of compliance with regulations arising Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for from EU obligations because there are no records from Education pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2010, which this information can readily be identified Official Report, column 396W, on departmental To estimate the cost of compliance with these obligations reorganisation, (1) what the itemised components are would involve disproportionate expenditure. of the cost of re-naming the Department for Education; [4324] Education Maintenance Allowance (2) what the reasons are for the difference between the figure given in that answer and that released in Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for response to a request under the Freedom of Education when his Department’s guidance notes for Information Act 2000. [4325] discretionary learner support funds for 16 to 18 year olds and adults will be published. [7883] Tim Loughton [holding answer 28 June 2010]: A breakdown of costs associated with the renaming of the Department is contained in the following table. All Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s costs are exclusive of VAT. Learning Agency (YPLA), which operates the discretionary learner support scheme for the Department for Education, Item Costs (£) including issuing the guidance. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, will write to the hon. Member for Development of new brand 5,250 Shipley with the information requested and a copy of Update of website 2,250 his reply will be placed in the Libraries. Signage 1,404 Stationery 91 Education: Public Expenditure Total 8,995 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for The answer given to the hon. Member’s earlier question Education what his Department’s definition is of lower and answers given to all Freedom of Information requests priority projects in relation to reductions in the 14 to 19 accurately reflect the information which was requested. education budget. [4083] Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2010, Mr Gibb: As the new coalition Government continue Official Report, column 396W, on departmental to develop and outline their objectives for education, reorganisation, how much was spent under each budget the Department has taken steps to review all its programmes heading on renaming his Department. [6293] of work to assess what is required to support such plans, taking into account the imperative of tackling Tim Loughton [holding answer 7 July 2010]: The cost the budget deficit. of renaming the Department was £5,250. In addition, it The Department has now delivered funding to cost £2,250 to update our website, £1,404 for signage, programmes for 2010-11 that meet the main priorities £91 for stationery with the new brand and £1,215.44 for of the new coalition Government, while ensuring value disposal and recycling of old stationery stock. for money is maintained. As the coalition Government announced at the end of May, funding to support Departmental Utilities students already in the education system has been protected for this financial year. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much (a) his Department and its In carrying out the review of the 14-19 programmes, predecessors and (b) its non-departmental public as part of the spending review, the Department has also bodies spent on (i) electricity, (ii) water, (iii) heating and undertaken to make significant savings that will enable (iv) telephone services in each year since 1997. [7590] us to contribute towards the reduction in the nation’s budget deficit. Tim Loughton: The Department is not able to provide a full response to the above question as this would incur Free School Meals: Greater Manchester disproportionate costs. We can provide the information for the Department’s own buildings since 2007/08. Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2007/08 the Department spent (i) £1,269,724 on electricity Education what estimate he has made of the number of (ii) £86,069 on water (iii) £219,602 on heating and (iv) £1,956,118 children in (a) Worsley and Eccles South constituency on telephony. and (b) Salford who would have been eligible for a free In 2008/09 the Department spent (i) £1,443,144 on electricity school meal from September 2010 under the proposals (ii) £80,680 on water (iii) £240,208 on heating and (iv) £1,862,226 of the previous administration. [6746] on telephony. In 2009/10 the Department spent (i) £1,510,386 on electricity Mr Gibb: The sum of £85 million allocated by the (ii) £46,031 on water (iii) £245,280 on heating and (iv) £1,508,973 on telephony. previous Government to extend free school meals this year, followed by costs of £190 million in 2011-12 and EC Law £215 million in 2012-13, falls far short of the true cost of £125 million this year, which the Department estimates Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for will increase in cost to £310 million in 2011-12 and Education if he will estimate the cost to his £350 million in 2012-13. Therefore the previous Department of compliance with regulations arising Administration would not have been able to meet its from EU obligations in the last 12 months. [6876] commitment to extend free school meals. 263W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 264W
GCE A-Level A wider range of achievement indicators for schools within a selected parliamentary constituency are available Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for from this site. Education (1) whether he plans to reform AS Level qualifications; and if he will make a statement; [6911] National Curriculum Tests (2) whether he plans to reform the format and structure of the A Level qualification; and if he will Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [6912] Education how many and what proportion of schools did not enter pupils for standard assessment tests in Mr Gibb [holding answer 8 July 2010]: We plan to 2009 owing to industrial action by teaching unions. give universities and learned bodies more say over the [7223] development of A level examinations, to ensure that they are robust and rigorous, and properly prepare Mr Gibb: The Qualifications and Development Agency students for higher education. We shall make a further has confirmed that 4,005 schools did not administer the announcement on the detail of reforms to the development 2010 key stage 2 national curriculum tests. This is 26% of qualifications later in the year. of the maintained schools expected to do so. A list of these schools can be viewed at: GCSE: Enfield North http://www.education.gov.uk/news/news/ks2-results-released Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what mechanism was used to establish Education what proportion of pupils in each school in threshold levels for standard assessment tests in Enfield North constituency obtained five GCSEs at 2009-10; and whether the industrial action by teaching grades A* to C in each of the last five years. [8199] unions had an effect on the threshold. [7226]
Mr Gibb: The information requested is in the following Mr Gibb: The Qualifications and Curriculum table: Development Agency (QCDA) was responsible for Proportion of pupils at the end of key stage 4 achieving 5 or more GCSEs at establishing level thresholds for the 2010 national curriculum grades A*-C; schools in Enfield North tests. Lin Hinnigan, QCDA executive accounting officer, Percentage has written to my hon. Friend with the information on 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 the mechanisms used to agree thresholds for this year’s tests. Mainstream schools Letter from Lin Hinnigan, dated 15 July 2010: Albany school 34 35 23 32 40 I am writing in response to the Parliamentary Question you Bishop Stopford’s 73 66 80 59 70 recently tabled regarding level setting National Curriculum Tests, school as requested by the Minister of State for Schools, Nick Gibb MP: Chace community 45 39 46 51 57 “To ask the Secretary of State for Education, what mechanism school was used to establish threshold levels for standard assessment Enfield county 70 63 75 76 81 tests in 2009-10; and whether the industrial action by teaching school unions had an effect on the threshold.” Enfield grammar 65 62 65 68 77 school The process of level setting for Key Stage 2 tests in English and mathematics 2010 was exactly the same as for previous years. The Kingsmead 47 48 44 53 55 school industrial action undertaken by teacher unions did not have any effect on how the process worked this year. Lea Valley high 24 35 37 56 55 school In terms of the process used to set levels, a range of procedures, Oasis academy 1— 1— 2— 3— 3— both statistical and judgemental, are used to ensure the standards Enfield of performance required for the award of each level are maintained Oasis academy 1— 1— 1— 1— 2— consistently from year to year. This includes extensive pre-testing Hadley of all test papers so that tests can be equated statistically from St Ignatius college 65 73 69 63 74 year to year. Since this equating is based on data obtained during St John’s 100 100 100 94 100 pre-testing, loss of data due to fewer pupils taking the actual test preparatory and would not have an impact on the process. Evidence is also senior school obtained through a judgemental exercise, whereby a panel of senior markers scrutinise real pupils’ test papers in order to identify the threshold where performance characterises that expected Special schools of pupils at each level. Aylands school 4— 4— 4— 4— 4— QCDA then chairs a formal level setting meeting which takes 4 4 4 Durants school —0—0— place to weigh up both strands of evidence in order to recommend Waverley school 5— 4— 4— 4— 4— a final threshold for each level which is signed off by the QCDA 1 School not published. accountable officer. This meeting is also observed by Ofqual, who 2 Opened—new school, results not published. have a role as the regulator to ensure that assessments give a 3 No KS4 pupils—school had no pupils in year 11. reliable indication of achievement and indicate a consistent level 4 Results based on 10 or fewer pupils are suppressed. 5 School had pupils in year 11 but did not have any entered for KS4 of attainment. qualifications. I trust this information is useful. If you have any further Source: questions please do not hesitate to contact me. Achievement and Attainment Tables. The figures provided in this answer are taken directly Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for from the Achievement and Attainment Tables publication: Education what assessment he has made of the effect http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/performancetables/ on procedures for (a) completion and (b) analysis of 265W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 266W data from standard assessment tests in 2009-10 (i) Short Stay Schools through the Reporting and Analysis of Improvement through School Self-Evaluation online system and (ii) Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for other means of the industrial action taken by teaching Education how many pupils of (a) primary and (b) unions. [7227] secondary school age have been in short stay schools for more than six months in each local authority area. Mr Gibb: The RAISEonline (Reporting and Analysis [7541] for Improvement through School Self Evaluation) system uses the results of national curriculum tests at key stage Mr Gibb: The legislative provision which changed the 2 to provide schools with analyses of their own results. name of pupil referral units to short stay schools was to The system will provide the full range of analyses for be commenced on 1 September 2010. We have decided those schools that administered the 2010 key stage 2 to delay commencement and plan to introduce provisions tests. in Parliament in due course to repeal the name change. Schools that did not administer the tests this year will In the meantime pupil referral units will continue to be be unable to access RAISEonline analyses of the attainment called by that name. and progress of their pupils at end of key stage 2. Information on the length of time a pupil has been in a pupil referral unit (PRU) is not available. Schools: Rural Areas Short Stay Schools: Special Educational Needs Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the fairness Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for of the application of the school funding mechanism for Education how many pupils of (a) primary and (b) rural shire counties in comparison with other secondary school age with non-statemented special authorities. [6463] educational needs are placed in short stay schools in each local authority area. [7542] Mr Gibb: We are already committed to changes to the school funding system through the introduction of a Mr Gibb: The legislative provision which changed the pupil premium for disadvantaged children. As well as name of Pupil Referral Units to Short Stay Schools was the premium, any changes to the funding system will to be commenced on 1 September 2010. We have decided need to support our policy objective of giving schools to delay commencement and plan to introduce provisions more freedom including through increasing the number in parliament in due course to repeal the name change. of Academies and making it easier for parents and In the meantime pupil referral units (PRUs) will continue other groups to start new schools. We are considering to be called by that name. school funding arrangements for 2011-12 and beyond The information requested relating to PRUs is shown and will be announcing our proposals in the coming in the following table. months. Pupil referral units: Number of pupils with special educational needs (SEN) without a statement by age1,2: As at January 2010, in England, by local authority Schools: Transport Number of pupils with SEN without a statement aged2 16 to Under 5 5 to 10 11 to 15 19+ All ages Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if the Government will bring forward England x 310 7,700 120 8,130 proposals for legislation for school transport for pupils with special educational needs to ensure greater North East 0 20 400 0 410 account is taken of the views of parents on the school Darlington 0 x 50 0 50 most appropriate for their child. [3103] Durham 0 10 40 0 50 Gateshead 0 0 70 0 70 Mr Gibb: Local authorities (LAs) have to make suitable Hartlepool 00x0x home to school transport arrangements for those children Middlesbrough 0 0 30 0 30 who are unable to walk to school because of their Newcastle upon 0 10 90 0 100 special educational needs (SEN), disability or mobility Tyne problems. North Tyneside 00x0x Northumberland 00x0x Under the Education Act 1996 parents have the right Redcar and 0x60060 to express a preference for the maintained school Cleveland (mainstream or special) they wish their child to attend. South Tyneside 0 0 20 0 20 However, in all cases it is for a LA to decide what Stockton-on- 0010010 provision is required to meet a child’s SEN, and where Tees that provision should be made, taking into account the Sunderland 0 0 20 0 20 individual needs of the child. If parents express a preference for a school further North west 0 70 1,250 x 1,310 Blackburn with 0x40x40 away than the nearest suitable school, the LA is not Darwen under a duty to provide transport to the school. Blackpool 0 x 230 0 240 There are no proposals to alter current legislation Bolton 0 10 30 0 40 regarding school transport for pupils with special Bury 0 0 40 0 40 educational needs. Cheshire East 00000 267W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 268W
Pupil referral units: Number of pupils with special educational needs (SEN) Pupil referral units: Number of pupils with special educational needs (SEN) without a statement by age1,2: As at January 2010, in England, by local authority without a statement by age1,2: As at January 2010, in England, by local authority Number of pupils with SEN without a statement aged2 Number of pupils with SEN without a statement aged2 16 to 16 to Under 5 5 to 10 11 to 15 19+ All ages Under 5 5 to 10 11 to 15 19+ All ages
Cheshire West 00000Walsall 0 0 30 0 30 and Chester Warwickshire 0 10 100 0 100 Cumbria 0 0 20 0 20 Wolverhampton 0 x 80 0 80 Halton00000Worcestershire 0 10 30 0 30 Knowsley 0 0 60 0 60 Lancashire 0 10 220 0 230 East of England 0 20 650 10 680 Liverpool 0 10 30 0 40 Bedford 0 x 50 0 60 Manchester 0 10 120 0 130 Cambridgeshire 0 0 20 0 20 Oldham 0 0 40 0 40 Central 00000 Rochdale 0 10 60 0 60 Bedfordshire Salford 0 x 70 0 70 Essex 0 10 140 x 150 Sefton 0 x 60 0 60 Hertfordshire 0 0 180 0 180 St. Helens 0 0 10 0 10 Luton 0 0 20 0 20 Stockport 0 0 70 0 70 Norfolk 0 0 70 0 70 Tameside 0 10 20 0 30 Peterborough 0 x 50 0 60 Trafford 0 0 10 0 10 Southend-on- 0x40040 Warrington 0 0 20 0 20 Sea Wigan 0 0 50 0 50 Suffolk 0 x 60 x 70 Wirral 0 0 50 0 50 Thurrock 0 x 20 0 20
Yorkshire and 0 20 470 0 490 London 0 70 1,600 90 1,760 the Humber Inner London 0 30 650 80 760 Barnsley 0 x 50 0 50 Camden 0 x 30 0 30 Bradford 0 10 90 0 100 City of London 00000 Calderdale 0 x 10 0 10 Hackney 0 0 50 0 50 Doncaster 0 10 60 0 60 Hammersmith 0 x 120 0 130 East Riding of 00000and Fulham Yorkshire Haringey 0 0 60 x 60 Kingston Upon 00x0xIslington 0 10 30 0 30 Hull, City of Kensington and 0020020 Kirklees 0 0 40 0 40 Chelsea Leeds 0 x 70 0 70 Lambeth 0 10 40 10 60 North East 00x0xLewisham 0 0 10 0 10 Lincolnshire Newham 0 0 40 70 110 North 00000 Lincolnshire Southwark 0 10 20 0 30 North Yorkshire 0 0 60 0 60 Tower Hamlets 0 0 170 0 170 Rotherham00x0xWandsworth 0 0 60 0 60 Sheffield 0 0 50 0 50 Westminster 0 0 20 0 20 Wakefield 0 0 30 0 30 Yo rk 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 Outer London 0 40 950 10 1,000 East midlands 0 40 680 0 720 Barking and 0 10 150 x 160 Derby 0 10 150 0 160 Dagenham Derbyshire 0 0 140 0 140 Barnet 0 0 10 10 20 Leicester 0 10 10 0 20 Bexley 0 20 80 0 100 Leicestershire 0 x 40 0 40 Brent 0 x 100 x 100 Lincolnshire 0 10 20 0 20 Bromley 0 0 70 0 70 Northamptonshire 0 0 160 0 160 Croydon 0 10 60 x 70 Nottingham 0 10 60 0 60 Ealing 0 0 80 0 80 Nottinghamshire 0 10 100 0 110 Enfield 0 0 20 0 20 Rutland00000Greenwich 0 0 80 0 80 Harrow 0 x 20 0 20 Havering 0 0 50 0 50 West Midlands x 50 960 x 1,020 Hillingdon 0 0 10 0 10 Birmingham x 20 220 0 250 Hounslow 0 x 50 50 Coventry 0 0 50 0 50 Dudley 0 x 10 0 10 Kingston upon 0010010 Thames Herefordshire 0 0 40 0 40 Merton 0 0 20 0 20 Sandwell 0 x 70 x 80 Redbridge 0 0 70 0 70 Shropshire 0 0 40 0 40 Solihull 0 x 50 0 50 Richmond upon 0010010 Thames Staffordshire 0 10 140 x 150 Sutton 0 0 60 0 60 Stoke-on-Trent 0 0 10 0 10 Waltham Forest 0 0 10 0 10 Telford and 0 x 110 0 110 Wrekin 269W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 270W
Pupil referral units: Number of pupils with special educational needs (SEN) Teachers are able to increase their awareness of pupils 1,2: without a statement by age As at January 2010, in England, by local authority with special educational needs (SEN) through information 2 Number of pupils with SEN without a statement aged available to them about children with SEN as a result of 16 to Under 5 5 to 10 11 to 15 19+ All ages the SEN Information Act 2008. The second report, following this Act, will be published in October 2010 South East 0 20 1,170 10 1,200 and brings together information about children with Bracknell Forest 0 x 30 0 30 SEN in one place. Brighton and 00000 Hove Young People: Antisocial Behaviour Buckinghamshire 0 0 80 x 80 East Sussex 0 x 60 0 60 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Hampshire 0 x 140 0 140 Education what spending changes he plans to make to IsleofWight00x0xthe Youth Taskforce budget; what his policy is on Kent 0 x 260 0 270 future Youth Taskforce funding; and if he will make a Medway 0 0 60 0 60 statement. [4078] Milton Keynes 0 x 60 0 60 Tim Loughton: The spending review, to be concluded Oxfordshire 0 0 60 0 60 in the autumn, will set out the forward framework for Portsmouth 00000 the Department’s spending and priorities and any Youth Reading 0 x 110 0 120 Taskforce funding will be considered as part of that Slough 0 0 70 0 70 process. Southampton 0 0 50 0 50 Surrey 0 10 70 x 80 West Berkshire 0 0 30 10 40 West Sussex 0 0 80 0 80 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Windsor and 0010010 Developing Countries: Food Maidenhead Wokingham 0 0 10 0 10 Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what representations his South West 0 10 520 x 540 Department has received on the effects on poor people Bath and North 00000in developing countries of fluctuations in food prices East Somerset arising from trading on the food derivatives market. Bournemouth 0 0 30 0 30 [9873] Bristol, City of 0 0 30 0 30 Cornwall 0 0 20 0 20 Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Devon 0 0 40 0 40 Development (DFID) has not received any specific Dorset 0 0 30 0 30 representations. Gloucestershire 0 10 40 0 40 International Assistance IslesofScilly00000 North Somerset 0 0 30 0 30 Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Plymouth 0 0 110 0 110 for International Development what the Government’s Poole 0 0 20 0 20 objectives are for the UN Summit on the Millennium Somerset 0 x 50 0 50 Development Goals in New York on water and South 0x30x40 Gloucestershire sanitation. [9987] Swindon 0 x 40 0 40 Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK’s objective for the Torbay 0 0 20 0 20 United Nations Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) Wiltshire 0 0 40 x 50 Summit is to secure international agreement on an 1 Excludes dually registered pupils. Includes pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges. action agenda for achieving the MDGs by 2015. The 2 Age as at 31 August 2009. coalition: our programme for government clearly states x=Fewer than 5 pupils. that we will prioritise aid spending on programmes to Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: ensure everyone has access to clean water and sanitation. Pupil Referral Unit Census Overseas Aid Special Educational Needs: Teachers Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether he plans to revise Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the partnership principles for the disbursement of UK Education if he will make it his policy to improve the aid. [9977] training of teachers in special educational needs. [6467] Mr Andrew Mitchell: I have no current plans to revise Sarah Teather: The Government are committed to the principles. I am considering this in the context of raising the status of the teaching profession and to the Bilateral Aid Review. moving to a high quality system of teacher recruitment Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for and training. International Development what recent discussions he I am reviewing existing policies and programmes to has had with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on make sure that they support our commitment to high (a) his Department’s budget and (b) levels of official quality teacher training including in respect of pupils development assistance; and if he will make a with special educational needs. statement. [9978] 271W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 272W
Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Chris Grayling: The Department’s spend on official Development (DFID) is working closely with HM Treasury photographs of Ministers since the present Administration’s on plans for DFID’s budget, which will be announced formation is £1,090 (excluding VAT). in the spending review on 20 October. The Government The average bi-monthly spend for the previous are committed to spend 0.7% of gross national income Administration (2009-10) was £2,022.19 (excluding VAT). as official development assistance from 2013 and to Official photography is defined as all photographs enshrine this in law. taken for official use, including head-shots of Ministers and photographs of events and visits at which Ministers appear. WORK AND PENSIONS Departmental Reorganisation Carer’s Allowance John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will take steps to relocate officials and Pensions how many people in (a) Glasgow Central working in his Department from central London to constituency, (b) Scotland and (c) the UK claim Bassetlaw. [6553] carer’s allowance. [10024] Chris Grayling: The location of public sector activity Maria Miller: The requested information is as follows: and plans for the Government’s estate will be considered alongside other public spending issues over the course Total entitled of the spending review. in GB Scotland Glasgow Central
November 969,290 99,670 1,810 Departmental Temporary Employment 2009 Source: Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Work DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% data. and Pensions how many employees on temporary contracts (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work its non-departmental public bodies had on the latest and Pensions whether he plans to undertake a review of date for which figures are available. [5931] the carer’s allowance system. [10025] Chris Grayling: The number of employees on temporary Maria Miller: The Government recognise that the contracts on 31 March 2010 in the Department, its UK’s six million carers play an indispensable role in agencies and non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) looking after family members or friends who need are set out in the following table. support. Number of temporary employees We have set out our commitment to simplify the benefit system in order to improve work incentives and Agency encourage responsibility and fairness. We will consider Jobcentre Plus 3,005 carefully the needs of carers as we develop our thinking Pensions Disability and Carers Service 166 on welfare reform. Corporate and Shared Services 166 Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he has made an assessment of NDPB the likely effects on those carers in receipt of carer’s Child Maintenance and Enforcement 104 allowance of the (a) programme of expenditure Commission reduction and (b) proposed increase in the rate of Health and Safety Executive 0 value added tax announced in the June 2010 Budget. Independent Living Fund 11 Personal Accounts Delivery Authority 147 [10125] Remploy Limited 196 Maria Miller: The Government took a number of The Pensions Advisory Service 1 steps in the Budget which will have an impact on carers The Pensions Regulator 38 Pensions Ombudsman and Pension 2 receiving carer’s allowance, including announcing that Protection Fund Ombudsman we would not take back the 1.5% advance in benefit Pension Protection Fund 33 rates that the previous Administration had intended Total 3,869 and would instead uprate benefits, including carer’s Note: allowance, by CPI in future years as a measure of Employee numbers are expressed as full-time equivalent and rounded to the inflation. As we take further steps to reduce the fiscal nearest whole number. Temporary employees are as defined by the Office for National Statistics ie employed on a casual basis or on a fixed term contract of deficit, we will continue to consider the impact carefully, 12 months or less. whiles protecting those who are most vulnerable. Disability Living Allowance Departmental Official Photographs Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions how many people receive (a) and Pensions how much his Department has spent on disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and official photographs of Ministers since the formation (c) employment and support allowance in Liverpool, of the present administration. [6443] Wavertree constituency. [9791] 273W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 274W
Chris Grayling: The information requested is as follows: Employment Schemes: Young People Employment support allowance claimants, incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, and disability living allowance: November 2009 Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Parliamentary constituency ESA IB/SDA DLA and Pensions what estimate his Department has made of the number of people who would have received the Liverpool, 890 5,610 7,620 two-year jobseeker’s guarantee this year had it not Wavertree been cancelled. [5260] Notes: 1. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) from October 2008. Chris Grayling: The two year jobseekers guarantee 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure has been applied. was due to start in April 2011 and therefore was not due 3. Caseload for DLA shows the number of people in receipt of an allowance, to help anyone this year. and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. The Government aim to have the new work programme 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. in place nationally by the summer of 2011. The work 5.IB/SDA ‘claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who programme will be an integrated package of support fail the contributions conditions but receive a national insurance credit, i.e. ‘credits only cases’. providing flexible help for people who find themselves Source: DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study out of work based on individual need rather than 100 per cent data. benefit claimed. Employment and Support Allowance: Arthritis In order to ensure that as many people benefit from the work programme as quickly as possible the Government will be phasing out many of the existing programmes Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and folding them into the work programme. and Pensions (1) how many claimants of employment and support allowance who were receiving treatment for rheumatoid arthritis during the assessment phase of Flexible Working: Disability their claim were requested to attend (a) a work capability assessment and (b) a work-focused interview Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the latest period for which figures are available; and Pensions whether he plans to bring forward [7135] legislative proposals to enable disabled people the right (2) how many employment support allowance to request flexible working. [5596] claimants in receipt of treatment for rheumatoid arthritis during the assessment phase of their claim Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. have been recorded as having attended (a) a work Under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, employers capability assessment and (b) a work-focused interview have a duty to make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to ensure in the latest period for which figures are available. that disabled people are not put at a substantial disadvantage [7136] compared to non-disabled people. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not Reasonable adjustments can include adjustments to available. working patterns, number of hours worked, or any other of the employer’s working arrangements to avoid the disabled person being put at a substantial disadvantage Employment Schemes compared to non-disabled people. Because of this, there are no plans to specifically Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State extend the right to request flexible working to disabled for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 8 July people. However, the Government have committed to 2010, Official Report, columns 434-35W, on extend the right to request flexible working to all employees. employment schemes: West Midlands, what his I will consult on plans to achieve this later in the year. definition of appropriate support is in relation to measures designed to support people to find Funeral Payments: West Midlands employment. [9485]
Chris Grayling: We aim to have the work programme Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in place nationally by the summer of 2011. Until then, and Pensions how much has been paid in funeral the Government will ensure back-to-work support is in payments in (a) the West Midlands and (b) Dudley place. borough in each year since 2000. [8217] Currently, there is a wide range of programmes on offer to our customers with contracts ending at different Steve Webb: The available information is in the following times. table. Information at borough level is unavailable. We are working with our delivery partners to agree Funeral payment gross expenditure by financial year how to move from the current support to an integrated West Midlands (£ million) programme of support available to all customers seeking 2003-04 5.4 work. 2004-05 5.5 We have already written to relevant existing delivery 2005-06 5.4 partners and have started ‘one to one’ discussions with 2006-07 5.5 them to discuss what this means for them. We will be 2007-08 5.6 making further announcements in due course. 2008-09 6.0 275W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 276W
Funeral payment gross expenditure by financial year (b) Salisbury and (c) Scarborough and Whitby West Midlands (£ million) constituency in households where the main tenant is in 2009-10 6.0 receipt of housing benefit. [6189] Notes: 1. The West Midlands has been interpreted as the Government Office Region of Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work that name. and Pensions what his estimate is of the extent of 2. Gross expenditure includes awards made after re-consideration or appeal. 3. The gross expenditure has been rounded to the nearest £0.1 million. over-occupation in social sector housing in 4. Data for 2000-01 to 2002-03 for the West Midlands Government Office Birmingham, Erdington constituency in households Region is not available, because one Social Fund district then straddled the where the main tenant is in receipt of housing benefit. border between the West Midlands and the East Midlands Government Office Regions. (Data is only available by Social Fund district.) [6942] Source: DWP Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information System Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the extent of Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work over occupation in social sector housing in Lewisham and Pensions what the average size of funeral payments East constituency in households where the main tenant made to applicants in (a) the West Midlands and (b) is in receipt of housing benefit. [6590] Dudley borough has been since 2005. [8218] Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: The available information is in the following Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the extent of table. Information at borough level is unavailable. over occupation in social sector housing in (a) Funeral payment average award by financial year Ashfield, (b) Argyll and Bute and (c) Na h-Eileanan West Midlands (£) an Iar constituency in households where the main 2005-06 1,176 tenant is in receipt of housing benefit. [6648] 2006-07 1,229 2007-08 1,292 Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 1,320 Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made 2009-10 1,351 of the level of over-occupation in social sector housing Notes: where the main occupier is in receipt of housing benefit 1. The West Midlands has been interpreted as the Government Office Region of in East Lothian constituency. [7184] that name. 2. Figures include awards made after re-consideration or appeal. 3. The average award has been rounded to the nearest £1. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made DWP Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information System of the level of over-occupation in social sector housing Future Jobs Fund where the main tenant is in receipt of housing benefit in Bristol East constituency. [7238] Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when his evaluation of the Future Jobs Steve Webb: The information is not available. The Fund will be completed; and if he will make a Department for Work and Pensions does not collect statement. [9563] information on dwelling size for all housing benefit recipients. Chris Grayling: Results of the impacts for one year The English Housing Survey in 2008-09 showed that Young Person’s Guarantee outcomes will be available in 258,000 (6.7%) of all social rented households and early 2012. We are planning to repeat the impact assessments 164,000 (5.4% ) of all private rented households in for two year Young Person’s Guarantee outcomes and England were over-occupied as measured by the bedroom the results will be available in early 2013. standard. Government Departments: Recruitment The “bedroom standard” is essentially the difference between the number of bedrooms needed to avoid Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Work undesirable sharing (given the number and ages of and Pensions how many people previously unemployed household members and their relationships to each for one year or more found employment in each other) and the number of bedrooms actually available Government department in each of the last five years. to the household. [5054] Source: Figures on over-occupation are taken from ‘Table 6: Overcrowding Chris Grayling: The information is not available. and under-occupation by tenure’ from the English Housing Survey, 2008-09 Housing Benefit Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 5 July and Pensions what his estimate is of the extent of 2010, how many of his Department’s customers over-occupation in social sector housing in West received the maximum local housing allowance rate of Lancashire constituency in households where the main £1,800 per week in March 2010. [7865] tenant is in receipt of housing benefit. [5627] Steve Webb: At March 2010 there were fewer than Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for 100 customers who received the maximum local housing Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the extent of allowance rate. All these customers are located in the over occupation in social sector housing in (a) Slough, central London broad rental market area. 277W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 278W
Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for In August 2009, in Great Britain, among customers Work and Pensions how many households in receiving housing benefit under the local housing allowance Liverpool, Walton constituency receive housing benefit arrangements, 48% had a shortfall of £23 per week on of more than (a) £200 per week for a one, (b) £290 per average. This relates to shortfalls caused by a customer’s week for a two, £340 per week for a three and (d) £400 contractual rent being higher than the appropriate local per week for a four bedroom property. [9981] housing allowance rate.
Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and State for Work and Pensions how many local housing Pensions how many pensioner households are in allowance recipients in City of Durham constituency receipt of local housing allowance in each local are receiving (a) over £400 per week for a four or five authority area in England. [10130] bedroom property, (b) over £340 per week for a three Steve Webb: The available information has been placed bedroom property, (c) over £290 per week for a two in the Library. bedroom property and (d) over £200 per week for a one bedroom property. [8472] Housing Benefit: Ashton-in-Makerfield
Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many households in Enfield North Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the constituency receive housing benefit of more than (a) number of (a) pensioners, (b) people of working age £200 a week for a one bedroom property, (b) £290 a in work, (c) people of working age who are week for a two bedroom property, (c) £340 a week for unemployed, (d) social sector tenants and (e) private a three bedroom property and (d) £400 a week for a sector tenants receiving housing benefit in (i) four bedroom or more property. [9956] Makerfield constituency and (ii) the Wigan metropolitan borough council area. [6048] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: The information is not available at Work and Pensions (1) how many households in constituency level. Liverpool, Wavertree constituency receive housing benefit of more than (a) £200 a week for a one The available information is in the table. Information bedroom property, (b) £290 a week for a two bedroom on whether a claimant of HB is in work or unemployed property, (c) £340 a week for a three bedroom property is not available. and (d) £400 a week for a four or five bedroom Housing benefit (HB) claimants in Wigan metropolitan borough council area by property; [9625] age group and private/social rented sector split, March 2010 Number (2) what his estimate is of the number of people in Hornchurch and Upminster constituency in receipt of All HB claimants 24,570 weekly local housing allowance of over (a) £400 for a Working age HB claimants 15,910 four or five bedroom property, (b) £340 for a three Elderly HB claimants 8,670 bedroom property, (c) £290 for a two bedroom Social rented sector claimants 18,010 property and (d) £200 for a one bedroom property in Private rented sector claimants 6,570 2010-11. [10030] Notes: 1. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 2. Data are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Members to the written 3. March 2010 represents the latest data held. 4. Social tenants include RSL (registered social landlord) tenants. answer I gave the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland 5. Working age is defined as claimants in receipt of the following passported (Helen Goodman) on 15 July 2010, Official Report, benefits, as recorded on the local authority computer system: income support, columns 849-50W. jobseeker’s allowance (income-based) or employment support allowance (income- based). If the claim is not passported then a claimant is counted as working age if they are aged under 60. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and 6. Elderly is defined as claimants in receipt of the following passported benefit, as recorded on the LA computer system: pension credit (guarantee credit). If Pensions for how many local housing allowance (LHA) the claim is not passported then a claimant is counted as elderly if they are aged claimants there was a shortfall between their amount 60 or over. Source: of LHA and actual rent charged; and what the average Single Housing Benefit Extract 100% individual level data (SHBE). shortfall was between actual rents and the rate of LHA paid (a) nationally and (b) in each English region for The available information on housing benefit recipients such people in the latest period for which figures are is published at: available. [10027] http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ hbctb_release_jun10.xls An exercise is being undertaken to add other geographical Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Work areas to the housing benefit data: this will include and Pensions what proportion of claimants of local parliamentary constituencies. It is hoped this exercise housing allowance in (a) England and (b) Doncaster will be completed by early 2011. make an additional payment to cover the difference between benefit received and rent paid; and what Housing Benefit: Bexley estimate he has made of the average weekly payment made by such claimants in the latest period for which Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work figures are available. [8966] and Pensions how much was paid in housing benefit to residents in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford Steve Webb: The information requested is not available constituency and (b) the London borough of Bexley in at sub-national level. each of the last five years. [7854] 279W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 280W
Steve Webb: Information on housing benefit expenditure The number of customer facing sites and offices which have numbers prefixed at parliamentary constituency level is not available. with (a) 0845 and (b) 0870 Total The available information for the London borough of Bexley is in the following tables: (b) Sites using 0870 2 Source: Bexley housing benefit expenditure since 2005-06 in £ millions, cash terms Jobcentre Plus £ million The table identifies the number of sites using numbers prefixed by 0845/0870. This does not directly correlate to the number of 2005-06 52.9 actual 0845/0870 numbers in use. 2006-07 56.9 Where 0845 numbers are used to deliver customer services, 2007-08 58.8 where possible alternative methods of contacting us are also 2008-09 62.9 provided. For example, online services for vacancy searching and 2009-10 74.8 submission, Job Points in Jobcentres for vacancy searching and “warm” phones are provided in Jobcentres which can be used to Bexley housing benefit expenditure since 2005-06 in £ millions, 2010-11 prices contact benefit enquiry lines. £ million The Department does not receive any income through its use of 0800 or 0845 telephone numbers. This use of 0800 and 0845 2005-06 60.2 numbers is a balance between fairness and accessibility for our 2006-07 62.9 customers and value for money for the tax payer. 2007-08 63.2 I hope that this is helpful. 2008-09 66.0 2009-10 77.0 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Greater London Notes: 1. Figures are presented to the nearest £0.1 million/£100,000. 2. Figures include all housing benefit, whether funded by central Government Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for or by local authorities. Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the number 3. Figures for 2009-10 are provisional outturn. of (a) individuals and (b) lone parents who will have 4. Figures have been converted to 2010-11 prices using GDP deflators from HM Treasury which are consistent with the June 2010 Budget Report. been on jobseeker’s allowance for over 12 months by 5. Figures are available on the DWP website at: 2013 in Hornchurch and Upminster constituency. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/hbctb_exp.xls [9990] Source: Local authority subsidy returns. Chris Grayling: The information is not available. Housing Benefit: Jobseeker’s Allowance Jobseeker’s Allowance: Liverpool
Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the number Pensions how many (a) people and (b) people with of people who will have been on jobseeker’s allowance children currently in receipt of housing benefit have for more than 12 months in Liverpool, Wavertree been on jobseeker’s allowance for a year or more in constituency by 2013; and how many of those are lone each UK constituency. [7740] parents. [9792]
Steve Webb: The information requested is not available. Chris Grayling: The information is not available. Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lone Parents
Jobcentre Plus: Telephone Services Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what his estimate is of the number of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance in Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Hornchurch and Upminster constituency. [9989] Work and Pensions how many jobcentres and Jobcentre Plus offices have telephone lines with the Chris Grayling: In May 2010 there were 140 lone prefix (a) 0845 and (b) 0870. [5908] parents claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Hornchurch and Upminster. Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus The figure has been rounded to the nearest five. is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Member with the information requested. for Work and Pensions how many lone parents resident in Peterborough constituency were in receipt of Letter from Ruth Owen: jobseeker’s allowance on 1 April in each year since The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question 2008; and if he will make a statement. [10098] asking how many jobcentres and Jobcentre Plus offices have telephone lines with the prefix (a) 0845 and (b) 0870. This is Chris Grayling: Figures are provided in the following something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to Darra table: Singh as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. As Darra Singh is currently on annual leave, I am replying in his absence. Lone parents claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Peterborough 1 April each year Number The information requested is in the table below: 2008 30 The number of customer facing sites and offices which have numbers prefixed with (a) 0845 and (b) 0870 2009 90 Total 2010 180 Note: (a) Sites using 0845 852 All figures have been rounded to the nearest 5. 281W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 282W
The increase in the number of lone parents claiming Pension Credit: West Midlands jobseeker’s allowance in Peterborough reflects a national trend that is a consequence of the change in the eligibility Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work rules for income support. In October 2008 a lone parent and Pensions how many people in (a) the West could claim income support on grounds of being a lone Midlands, (b) Dudley borough and (c) Dudley North parent until his or her youngest child reached 16. From constituency claim pension credit. [8202] November 2008 this has been reduced in steps to 10, and, under current legislation, will be further reduced Steve Webb: The information is in the following table. to seven in October 2010. Budget 2010 announced that this age limit will be further lowered to the point when Pension credit the youngest child turns school age. individual Pension credit Area beneficiaries household recipients The policy is an important part of the strategy to combat child poverty. The need to increase the rate of West Midlands Government 348,000 279,500 parental employment needs to be balanced against their Office Region caring responsibilities, and accordingly the jobseeker’s Dudley local authority 23,130 18,030 allowance regime has been adapted for lone parents to Dudley North 6,720 5,200 parliamentary constituency ensure that those with children under the age of 13 can Notes: restrict their availability to school hours, and that non- 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. availability of child care can constitute good cause for 2. Pension credit household recipients are those people who claim pension turning down an offer of employment. credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Individual beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners for whom they are claiming. 3. Parliamentary constituencies are for the Westminster Parliament of May Maternity Benefits 2010. Source: DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for data as at November 2009 Work and Pensions how many Sure Start maternity grants were made to mothers for their second or Pensioners: Bristol subsequent child in Lewisham East constituency in 2009-10. [6584] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many pensioners in Bristol North Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for West constituency receive (a) the basic state pension Work and Pensions how many Sure Start maternity and (b) pension credit. [7791] grants were made to mothers in (a) Ashfield, (b) Argyll and Bute and (c) Na h-Eileanan an Iar Steve Webb: The information available is in the table. constituency in respect of a second or subsequent child in 2009-10. [6644] State Pension credit Parliamentary pension individual Pension credit constituency recipients beneficiaries household recipients Steve Webb: A total of 274,000 Sure Start Maternity Grants were awarded in Great Britain in 2009-10. The Bristol North 18,850 5,230 4,370 exact number of awards for a second or subsequent West Notes: maternity is not available, but is estimated to be 52% of 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. all awards, around 143,000. 2. State pension figures are for the total state pension caseload. Around 1% of state pension recipients are not in receipt of the basic state pension, but are The number of awards made in 2009-10 is available receiving additional state pension only or graduated retirement benefit only. by Government Office Region or Jobcentre Plus Social 3. Basic state pension only figures are not available by current 2010 Fund budget area only, not by constituency. parliamentary constituencies. 4. Pension credit household recipients are those people who claim pension Note: credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Both numbers have been rounded to the nearest 1,000. Individual beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners for whom they are claiming. Source: 5. Parliamentary constituencies are for the Westminster Parliament of May For total number of awards: Department for Work and Pensions 2010. Source: Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information System DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% data as at November 2009 Mortgages: Government Assistance Pensioners: Edinburgh
Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Work and Pensions how many pensioners in Edinburgh number of residents of Liverpool, Walton constituency East constituency are in receipt of (a) the basic state in receipt of (a) income support, (b) jobseeker’s pension and (b) pension credit. [8196] allowance and (c) pension credits who will no longer have their full mortgage interest payment covered by Steve Webb: The information available is in the following support for mortgage interest payments under the table: proposals in the June 2010 budget. [9979] Number Steve Webb: This information is not available because State pension Pension credit Pension credit the Department does not collect management information Parliamentary recipients individual household on the actual interest rates that apply to support for constituency beneficiaries recipients mortgage interest customers’ loans. Edinburgh East 14,200 5,030 4,370 283W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 284W
Notes: Liverpool, Wavertree parliamentary 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. constituency Number 2. State pension figures are for the total state pension caseload. Around 1% of state pension recipients are not in receipt of the basic state pension, but are State pension recipients 14,460 receiving additional state pension only or graduated retirement benefit only. Pension credit individual 6,780 3. Basic state pension only figures are not available by current 2010 parliamentary beneficiaries constituencies. 4. Pension credit household recipients are those people who claim pension Pension credit household recipients 5,650 credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Individual Notes: beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners 1. Case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10. for whom they are claiming. 2. State pension figures are for the total state pension caseload. Around 1% of 5. Parliamentary constituencies are for the Westminster Parliament of May state pension recipients are not in receipt of the basic state pension, but are 2010. receiving additional state pension only or graduated retirement benefit only. Source: 3. Basic state pension only figures are not available by current 2010 DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% parliamentary constituencies. data as at November 2009. 4. Pension credit household recipients are those people who claim pension credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Pensioners: Greater London Individual beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners for whom they are claiming. 5. Parliamentary constituencies are for the Westminster Parliament of May Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010. Work and Pensions how many pensioners receive (a) Source: DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% the basic state pension and (b) pension credit in data as at November 2009 Hornchurch and Upminster constituency. [9991] Social Security Benefits: Disability
Steve Webb: The information available is in the table. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many and what proportion of State Pension credit awards of (a) employment and support allowance and Parliamentary pension individual Pension credit constituency recipients beneficiaries household recipients (b) disability living allowance were awarded on appeal in each of the last three years. [8117] Hornchurch 22,260 5,150 4,270 and Upminster Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. following tables: 2. State Pension figures are for the total state pension caseload. Around one% of state pension recipients are not in receipt of the basic state pension, but are 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 receiving additional state pension only or graduated retirement benefit only. 3. Basic state pension only figures are not available by current 2010 parliamentary Total DLA decisions made 964,000 967,000 957,000 constituencies. 4. Pension credit household recipients are those people who claim pension DLA appeals heard by the Appeal 57,000 53,000 51,000 credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Individual Service beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners DLA appeals found in the customers 26,000 23,000 21,000 for whom they are claiming. favour 5. Parliamentary constituencies are for the Westminster Parliament of May Proportion of DLA appeals found in 45.6 43.4 41.2 2010. the customers favour of the DLA Source: appeals heard (percentage) DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% data as at November 2009 Proportion of DLA appeals found in 2.7 2.4 2.2 the customers favour of the total DLA Pensioners: Liverpool decisions made (percentage) Notes: 1. The figures have been rounded to the nearest thousand. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Each year covers decisions recorded on the DLA computer system within the period of 1 April to 31 March. Work and Pensions how many pensioners resident in 3. Total DLA decisions made include new claims (NR and SR), renewals, Liverpool, Wavertree constituency receive (a) the basic supersessions (including Secretary of State supersessions, supersessions age 3 state pension and (b) pension credit. [9793] and age 5). Source: Department for Work and Pensions—RDA60209 report—DLA Management Steve Webb: The information available is in the table. Information Statistics.
%offitforwork Decision in % decision in ESA claim start Appeals heard with an appeal favour of DWP decision favour of %DWP month Fit for work (to date) heard (to date) appellant upheld appellant decision upheld
October 2008 3,500 1,200 35 500 700 40 60
November 2008 17,000 5,800 34 2,300 3,500 40 60
December 2008 14,700 4,900 33 1,900 2,900 40 60
January 2009 20,500 6,300 31 2,400 3,800 39 61
February 2009 19,300 4,900 25 2,000 3,000 40 60
March 2009 22,800 5,000 22 1,900 3,000 39 61 285W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 286W
%offitforwork Decision in % decision in ESA claim start Appeals heard with an appeal favour of DWP decision favour of %DWP month Fit for work (to date) heard (to date) appellant upheld appellant decision upheld
Total 97,800 28,000 29 11,000 17,000 39 61 Notes: 1. The data presented in this publication combine three main data sources: benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) covering new ESA claims that started between October 2008 to August 2009; functional assessment data sourced from ATOS Healthcare covering assessments completedupto February 2010; and appeals data sourced from Tribunals Service covering appeals heard up to February 2010 (and which link to ESA claims up to the end of March 2009). 2. The table provides national data for all ESA claims, up to the end of March 2009 where person claiming has been found fit for work, who subsequently appeals the Department’s decision and the appeal has been heard by Tribunals Service the end of February 2010. ESA was introduced in October 2008 so data are available only from this date onwards. The table shows that for all ESA claims received between October 2008 and March 2009, there were around 28,000 appeals. Of these, 11,000 or 39% found in favour of the appellant. 3.Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted Tribunals Service and heard, we still expect there are more appeals that have not yet been heard for these early cohorts of ESA claims. These figures should continue to be treated as emerging findings and not final at this stage. 4. The Department regularly publishes official statistics on the work capability assessment—the statistics were last updated in April 2010 and published in the report ‘Employment and Support Allowance: Work Capability Assessment: Official Statistics: April 2010’, a copy of which has been placed in the Library. The information is also available on the internet at the following address: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/esa_wca_arc.asp
Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Applications made to the independent living fund by residents in the West Work and Pensions what proportion of applications for Midlands and Dudley metropolitan borough council (a) employment and support allowance and (b) disability living allowance were rejected in West Suffolk 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 constituency in the last 12 months. [8118] West Midlands 281 394 468 148 308 Chris Grayling: The information requested is not available. Dudley Metropolitan 14 23 21 5 9 Borough Council Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Note: Work and Pensions how many people in West Suffolk 1. Applications rejected at the initial vetting stage are not recorded on the constituency have made claims for (a) employment system. and support allowance and (b) disability living 2. Figures are not available for Dudley North constituency as applications are recorded by local authority not parliamentary constituency. allowance in the last 12 months. [8119] Source: Independent Living Fund Chris Grayling: The information requested is not available. Social Security Benefits: Liverpool
Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions (1) how many approvals were granted of Work and Pensions how many people in Liverpool, funding from the Independent Living Fund to persons Walton constituency are in receipt of (a) disability working more than 16 hours per week in (a) the West living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit, (c) basic state Midlands and (b) Dudley borough in each of the last pension and (d) pension credit; and how many people five years; [8417] in that constituency have been in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months. [9980] (2) how many applications to the Independent Living Fund were made by persons working more than 16 hours per week in (a) the West Midlands and (b) Maria Miller: The information available is in the table. The jobseeker’s allowance figure shows those in Dudley borough in each of the last five years; [8418] receipt for more than 12 months. (3) how many applications were made to the Independent Living Fund by residents in (a) the West Liverpool, Walton parliamentary Midlands, (b) Dudley borough and (c) Dudley North constituency Number constituency in each of the last five years. [8419] Disability living allowance 10,450 Incapacity benefit/severe disablement 7,770 Maria Miller: The available information is in the allowance tables. State pension 15,510 Pension credit individual 9,230 Applications made by and approvals granted to people in remunerative beneficiaries employment or self-employment for at least 16 hours a week Pension credit household recipients 7,590 2008-09 2009-10 Jobseeker’s allowance 1,245 Applications Approvals Applications Approvals made granted made granted Notes: 1. Case load figures for all except jobseeker’s allowance are rounded to the West Midlands 2 2 2 0 nearest 10. Jobseeker’s allowance case load figures are rounded to the nearest five. Dudley 00002. State pension figures are for the total state pension caseload. Around 1% of Metropolitan state pension recipients are not in receipt of the basic state pension, but are Borough Council receiving additional state pension only or graduated retirement benefit only. Notes: 3. Basic state pension only figures are not available by current 2010 1. Figures are only available from 2008-09. parliamentary constituencies. 2. Applications rejected at the initial vetting stage are not recorded on the 4. Pension credit household recipients are those people who claim pension system. credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Source: Individual beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number Independent Living Fund of partners for whom they are claiming. 287W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 288W
Incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance claimants with the main Liverpool, Walton parliamentary disabling condition of drug abuse constituency Number As at Brighton and November: Great Britain Hove East Sussex West Sussex 5. Parliamentary constituencies are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 2008 49,790 480 350 340 6. Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance figure includes people in receipt of benefit and also those who fail the contributions conditions but 2009 41,230 390 280 280 receive a national insurance credit only. Notes: Sources: 1. Data is rounded to the nearest 10. 1. DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 2. Medical condition is not available for the other out-of-work benefits. 100% data as at November 2009 for disability living allowance, incapacity 3. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance from benefit/severe disablement allowance, state pension, pension credit. October 2008, which accounts for some of the drop in numbers between 2. NOMIS Jobseeker’s Allowance 100% data as at June 2010 for jobseeker’s November 2008 and November 2009. allowance. 4. Great Britain total includes a small number of cases resident abroad. 5. East Sussex total includes Eastbourne, Hastings, Rother, and Wealden. Temporary Employment 6. West Sussex total includes Adur, Arun, Chichester, Crawley, Horsham, Mid Sussex, and Worthing. 7. Drug or alcohol dependency does not of itself confer entitlement to incapacity Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and benefits. To qualify for incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, claimants Pensions what plans he has to assist part-time workers have to undertake a medical assessment of incapacity for work. This assesses who want to move into full-time employment. [9732] the effects of a person’s condition on their ability to carry out a number of everyday activities relevant to work. People with a recorded diagnosis of alcohol or drug dependency may have other diagnoses, for example mental Chris Grayling: The Government’s objective is to illness, which result in their incapacity for work. Causes of incapacity are based encourage a dynamic and flexible labour market in on the International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, published by the World Health Organisation: which more people can find employment, whether full http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/ or part-time, that meets their particular needs and Source: circumstances. Key to this will be the measures set out DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) in the Budget to secure a sustained, private sector-led, Estimated number of working-age claimants who are problem drug users by recovery in the economy and employment, through benefit type in England in 2006 tackling the deficit, improving competitiveness and Number supporting business by cutting regulation and taxes. The Government are also exploring ways to ensure that Jobseeker’s Allowance 66,000 people on benefit keep more of their earnings when Incapacity Benefit 87,000 they move into work or increase the hours they work. Income Support 146,000 Disability Living Allowance 25,000 In addition, the Next Step service (our new universal Total in receipt of one or more of 267,000 integrated adult careers service which starts from August) the above benefits will offer advice to individuals on how to progress in Notes: their careers. This would include helping them overcome 1. The figures are derived from estimates of the number of problem drug users on each benefit. They do not record if problem drug use is the reason for the barriers to working full-time, such as accessing child benefit claim. care, or where their skills were a barrier to gaining 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 1,000. full-time work, how they could get the necessary skills 3. The sum of the component benefits is greater than the total because claimants can be in receipt of one or more benefits at the same time. through training or development activities. 4. Problem drug users are defined as those who use opiates (e.g. heroin) and/or crack cocaine and include those who are in treatment for their dependency. Unemployment Benefits: Drugs 5. Disability living allowance can be claimed by people who are both in and out of work. 6. The copy of the working paper by Hay and Bauld can be found in the Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for House of Commons Library, and can also be accessed at: Work and Pensions how many problem drug users http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/WP46.pdf Source: resident in (a) the UK, (b) Sussex and (c) Brighton Population estimates of problematic drug users in England who access and Hove received each of the out of work benefits in Department for Work and Pensions benefits: A feasibility study, Working (i) 2005, (ii) 2006, (iii) 2007, (iv) 2008 and (v) 2009. Paper No. 46, Hay, G. and Bauld, L. 2008 [6572] Unemployment Chris Grayling: Drug and alcohol addiction is one of the most damaging root causes of poverty, and helping people who are trapped on benefits through drug and Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work alcohol addiction so that they can recover and find and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number employment is a top priority for the Government. of people in St Albans district in receipt of out-of- We do not have data for the number of problem drug work benefits as a result of (a) alcohol and (b) drug users at the geographical level requested for all out of dependency. [6886] work benefits. However we do have data for incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance where the Chris Grayling: Drug and alcohol addiction is one of main disabling condition is listed as drug abuse. We also the most damaging root causes of poverty, and helping have estimates for the number of working age claimants people who are trapped on benefits through drug and who are problem drug users in England. alcohol addiction so that they can recover and find Incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance claimants with the main employment is a top priority for the Government. disabling condition of drug abuse A breakdown by medical condition is only available As at Brighton and for incapacity benefit/ severe disablement allowance. November: Great Britain Hove East Sussex West Sussex The information is in the table. Information by medical 2005 48,200 400 360 290 condition is not available for the other out-of-work 2006 49,080 440 370 300 benefits: jobseeker’s allowance, income support, and 2007 51,220 480 340 310 employment and support allowance. 289W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 290W
Incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance claimants in St Albans local important learning categories in the latest year for authority with a diagnosis of alcoholism or drug abuse: November 2009 which figures are available; [8728] Number (2) what proportion of the adult further education Alcoholism 50 budget was spent on 25 year olds and over studying (a) Drug Abuse 40 Level 3 programmes on (i) A levels, (ii) vocational Notes: Level 3 qualifications and (iii) other Level 3 1. Data is rounded to the nearest 10. 2. The figures in the table relate to the latest available national data. programmes, (b) Level 2 programmes on (i) GCSEs, 3. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment and support allowance from (ii) vocational Level 2 qualifications and (iii) other October 2008. qualifications, (c) Level 4 programmes not funded by 4. Drug or alcohol dependency does not of itself confer entitlement to incapacity benefits. To qualify for incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, claimants HEFCE, (d) skills for life and (e) and other important have to undertake a medical assessment of incapacity for work. This assesses learning categories in the latest year for which figures the effects of a person’s condition are available. [8729] on their ability to carry out a number of everyday activities relevant to work. People with a recorded diagnosis of alcohol or drug dependency may have other diagnoses, for example mental illness, which result in their incapacity for work. Mr Hayes: This information is held by the Skills Causes of incapacity are based on the International Classification of Diseases, Funding Agency. I have asked the chief executive of 10th Revision, published by the World Health Organisation: Skills Funding, Geoff Russell, to write to my hon. http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/ Source: Friend with the information requested. DWP Information Directorate 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study Letter from Geoff Russell, dated 14 July 2010: (WPLS). I am replying on behalf of the Skills Funding Agency to your Parliamentary Questions, UIN 8728 and UIN 8729, tabled on 12 July. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The attached analysis includes data from the Learner Responsive Adult Education: Finance data returns only. There are two tables—one shows information for 19-24 year olds and the other shows 25+. The data is for the 2008/09 academic year (August 2008 to July 2009), the most Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, recent year for which complete data is available. Innovation and Skills (1) what proportion of the adult The PQs ask for data broken down by categories which are not further education budget was spent on 19 to 24 year mutually exclusive. For example, some GCSE provision is classed olds studying (a) Level 3 programmes on (i) A levels as Skills for Life. The spreadsheet shows the full extent of the (ii) vocational Level 3 qualifications and (iii) other overlap. Level 3 programmes, (b) Level 2 programmes on (i) 19 to 24 summary GCSEs, (ii) vocational Level 2 qualifications and (iii) Academic year 2008/09 Actual spend (£000) other qualifications, (c) Level 4 programmes not funded by HEFCE, (d) skills for life and (e) and other 19+ FE participation 1,487,090
2008/09 academic year 19-24 summary excl. 19-24 summary Skills for Life included 19-24 summary based excluding Skills for Life Of which: Skills for Life under GCSE, other level on actual spend 2008/09 for GCSE, other level 2 19-24 summary (£000) (£000) 2 and level 1 (£000) (percentage) and level 1 (percentage)
A/AS/A2 funding 20,280 — 20,280 1.4 1.4 Vocational level 3 71,373 — 71,373 4.8 4.8 funding Other level 3 155,185 — 155,185 10.4 10.4 funding
GCSE funding 7,972 6,084 1,888 0.5 0.1 Vocational level 2 55,508 — 55,508 3.7 3.7 funding Other level 2 82,407 12,538 69,869 5.5 4.7 funding
Level 4 funding 4,824 — 4,824 0.3 0.3
Skills for Life1 87,425 — 87,425 5.9 5.9
Level 1 funding 135,976 68,803 67,173 9.1 4.5 Other level funding 12,504 — 12,504 0.8 0.8
Total 19 to 24 633,454 87,425 546,029 42.6 36.7 1 Skills for Life also contained within GCSE, other level 2 and level 1. 25+ summary Academic year 2008/09 Actual spend (£000)
19+ FE participation 1,487,090 291W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 292W
2008/09 academic year 25+ summary excl. 25+ summary excluding Skills for Life included 25+ summary based on Skills for Life for Of which: Skills for Life under GCSE, other level actual spend 2008/09 GCSE, other level 2 and 25+ summary (£000) (£000) 2 and level 1 (£000) (percentage) level 1 (percentage)
A/AS/A2 funding 5,846 — 5,846 0.4 0.4 Vocational level 3 78,027 — 78,027 5.2 5.2 funding Other level 3 funding 112,652 — 112,652 7.6 7.6
GCSE funding 11,487 8,058 3,429 0.8 0.2 Vocational level 2 73,918 — 73,918 5.0 5.0 funding Other level 2 funding 225,282 33,274 192,008 15.1 12.9
Level 4 funding 21,607 — 21,607 1.5 1.5
Skills for Life1 287,857 — 287,857 19.4 19.4
Level 1 funding 388,502 246,525 141,977 26.1 9.5 Other level funding 25,603 — 25,603 1.7 1.7
Total 25+ 1,230,781 287,857 942,924 82.8 63.4 1 Skills for Life also contained within GCSE, other level 2 and level 1.
Adult Education: Incapacity Benefit This Government are committed to increasing the number of apprenticeships, in particular, advanced and higher apprenticeships. To build an advanced economy Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of we need advanced skills in industries such as construction. State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring Sector Skills Councils (SSCs), such as ConstructionSkills, forward proposals to provide a remission of course fees have a key role encouraging more businesses to offer for adult learners in receipt of incapacity benefit. apprenticeship places. We expect the Skills Funding [9985] Agency to work with the National Apprenticeships Service, SSCs, employers, colleges and training organisations Mr Hayes: Remission of course fees or waivers are to make additional apprenticeship places available in only available for people in receipt of means-tested sectors where there is local demand. benefits. As incapacity benefit is a non-means tested and also (after 28 weeks) a taxable benefit, it does not Apprentices: West Midlands fall into this category. Students in receipt of incapacity benefit who also receive means-tested benefits, such as income support or housing benefit, may be eligible for a Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for remission in course fees. Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to Colleges also have discretion to waive fees for students work with small and medium-sized enterprises in (a) in receipt of incapacity benefit. the West Midlands, (b) Dudley borough and (c) Dudley North constituency to ensure the provision of apprenticeship places. [9699] Apprentices: Construction Mr Hayes: We are seeking to drive up the skills levels of the work force by directing public funding where it Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for will bring the clearest benefits. Apprenticeships will Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to play a vital role in this. We are determined to make it assist the construction sector to create and retain local easier for companies of all sizes to take on apprentices (a) jobs and (b) apprenticeships. [9543] so that more businesses can access the tremendous benefits they can bring to the workplace. That is why we Mr Prisk [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The are redirecting £150 million of Train to Gain in 2010-11 Government’s priorities are to address the budget deficit to create an additional 50,000 high quality employer-led and the challenge of creating growth across the economy, places. in order to create conditions where investment in SMEs are our priority but we recognise that there is construction can start to grow, and more jobs can be also a need to support large employers who are prepared created. There are no short-term fixes. to recruit and train apprentices. We fund apprenticeships The Government are keen to continue working with on a national basis through the Skills Funding Agency— sectors, to develop effective strategies and programmes there are no regional allocations. The Skills Funding to support apprenticeship training. Our decision to Agency work with the National Apprenticeships Service, redeploy £150 million of Train to Gain funding to employers, colleges and training organisations in Dudley create 50,000 high-quality, employer-led apprenticeship and the west midlands to make additional apprenticeship places is just the beginning. places available where there is local demand. 293W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 294W
Building Schools for the Future Programme encouraging increase in new build, for the second quarter in succession since the end of the recession. Repair and Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Maintenance had shown a strong increase in the third Business, Innovation and Skills if he will provide quarter of 2009, and the decline in the latest figures is financial assistance to those construction companies likely to reflect work having been brought forward whose contracts under the Building Schools for the before the ending of lower rate VAT in January this Future programme have been cancelled. [9544] year. New orders for construction rose by 1% over the previous quarter, with a strong increase in private housing Mr Prisk [holding answer 19 July 2010]: Ihaveno and increases in all other sectors except private non-housing plans to do so. projects. Business: EU Law While publicly funded projects and infrastructure have shown resilience throughout the recent recession, Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the government recognises that the balance must shift Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer towards the private sector in the future. The Department’s Official Report, of 29 June 2010, column 534W, on priorities include rebalancing the economy to encourage business: EU law, what the monetary value is of 31% of the investment necessary to stimulate growth in all the total regulatory costs. [9744] sectors including construction. In addition, the Construction Mr Prisk: The proportion of planned new regulatory Innovation and Growth Team is looking at how the costs stemming from the EU from April 2010 onwards industry can best become equipped to meet the challenges equates to 31% of the total average annual cost of all of a low-carbon economy, and will report in the autumn. measures over the same period. The total average annual cost is £27.8 to £30.3 billion, as set out in the Government’s Credit: Low Incomes second Forward Regulatory Programme, published in March this year. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Unfortunately, there was an error in my response to Business, Innovation and Skills on how many the previous PQ which asked me to make an estimate of occasions the courts have cancelled a credit agreement the cost of EU Regulation to British businesses. This under the unfair credit relationship provisions of the should have read “the proportion of planned regulatory Consumer Credit Act 2006 in respect of those on lower costs stemming from the EU from April 2010 onwards incomes in the last 12 months for which figures are equates to 31%”—not between the period April 2010 to available. [9410] April 2011. Business: Government Assistance Mr Davey: The Office of Fair Trading is aware of three cases since 1 July 2009 in which the court found James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for that there was an unfair relationship and imposed remedies Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for in favour of the borrower. In one case a linked contract the long-term future of the Grant for Business for payment protection insurance was cancelled and in Investment Scheme. [9470] the other two cases the interest rate was reduced. In none of these cases was the credit agreement cancelled. Mr Prisk: All Solutions for Business (SfB) products There is no information as to the income level of the are currently being reviewed, including the Grant for borrowers in these cases. Business Investment (GBI). Civil Servants: Location Departmental Equality Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for relocate (a) civil servants and (b) Government bodies Business, Innovation and Skills how much has been for which his Department is responsible (i) out of spent by his Department (a) in total and (b) on London and (ii) to the West Midlands; and if he will staffing costs on promoting equality and diversity in make a statement. [8292] each of the last three years; and how many people are employed by his Department for this purpose. [5820] Mr Davey: This Department is currently reviewing its location strategy and this will include future decisions Mr Davey: BIS is a new Department that was formed on potential relocation opportunities. The initial review in June 2009. As required, it published its first Single is expected to be undertaken over the next six months Equality Scheme (SES) on 3 June 2010. The SES provides and no decisions will be made on any final locations examples of the positive developments and achievements until then. in BIS policy areas. It also sets out the objectives for the Construction Department over the next three years. This shows how BIS intends to meet its obligations to the current Equality Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for legislation and to the Equality Act and public sector Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment duties that come into force in April 2011. he has made of the state of the construction industry; and what steps he plans to take to assist the industry. http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/corporate/docs/s/10-811- single-equality-scheme.pdf [9277] A total of £308,222 has been spent on promoting Mr Prisk: Figures recently released by the Office for equality and diversity since the formation of the National Statistics show that construction output declined Department. This includes staffing costs of £261,989 overall by 1% in the first quarter of 2010. There was an for 4.7 FTE members of staff. 295W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 296W
Departmental NDPBs took office; and how much each of these persons has received in expenses for use of taxis, buses and Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for underground trains in that period. [7997] Business, Innovation and Skills what the address is of the head office of each non-departmental public body Mr Davey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I for which his Department is responsible. [5726] gave to the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) on 7 June 2010, Official Report, column Mr Davey: The addresses of the Department’s non- 82W. departmental public bodies can be found at the following In addition, the Government publish on a quarterly link, under the ″Public Bodies Directory″ heading: basis, the expenses incurred by the most senior officials http://www.berr.gov.uk/aboutus/corporate/performance/ which includes use of the Government Car Service and annual-spending/page27140.html other travel expenses. Departmental Official Cars East of England Development Agency: Internet
Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his estimate is of Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what websites have the mileage travelled by each Minister in his been (a) operated and (b) commissioned by the East Department in a Government car in (a) May and (b) of England Development Agency in each year since its June 2010. [8331] inception; what estimate he has made of (i) the number of unique visitors to and (ii) the average length of time Mr Davey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer each visitor spent on each such site in each such year; given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary and if he will make a statement; [9729] of State for Transport on 13 July 2010, Official Report, (2) how many staff of his Department maintain the column 624W. East of England Development Agency erebusonline website; and what recent assessment he has made of the Departmental Public Consultation value for money derived from expenditure on the website. [9730] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much (a) his Mr Prisk: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies to my hon. Friend for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on 6 July spent on public consultations in each of the last five 2010, Official Report, column reference 236W. years; if he will place in the Library a copy of each No BIS staff are involved in the maintenance of the consultation document issued; and if he will make a erebusonline website and the Department has not made statement. [8715] any assessments on the value for money of the website. Mr Davey [holding answer 19 July 2010]: The vast Farnborough Airshow majority of consultation exercises are run by policy teams with some support from the consultation coordinator, Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for IT, communications teams and in some instances Business, Innovation and Skills which countries have Government offices in the regions. Separating the costs been invited by UK Trade and Investment to send of consultations from everyday departmental responsibilities delegates to the Farnborough International Airshow in would not therefore be possible except at disproportionate 2010; which countries have accepted such invitations; expense. Consultation documents are available on the which delegations attending that event will be internet at: composed of (a) military, (b) civil and (c) military http://www.bis.gov.uk/Consultations and civil representatives; and if he will make a (for recent BIS consultations) statement. [9724] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100216092443/ http://www.berr.gov.uk/consultations/archived/index.html Mr Prisk: A total of 42 countries have been invited (for archived BIS consultations) by the Government to send official delegations to the http://www.nmo.bis.gov.uk/content.aspx?SC_ID=333 show and 37 have accepted an invitation and are expected (For National Measurement Office consultations) to attend. The delegations will comprise military and http://www.ipo.gov.uk/pro-policy/consult.htm civil representatives as provided in the following table.
(for Intellectual Property Office consultations) Countries http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/ invited Accepted/declined Military/civil representatives insolvencyprofessionandlegislation/con_doc_register/ registerindex.htm Algeria Accepted Military Australia Accepted Civilian (for Insolvency Service consultations) Bahrain Decline — http://skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/funding/consultations/ Brazil Accepted Military Departmental Travel Brunei Accepted Military and Civilian Canada Accepted Military and Civilian Chile Accepted Military Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for China Accepted Military Business, Innovation and Skills which (a) Ministers Denmark Accepted Military and Civilian and (b) officials in his Department have been driven by Finland Declined — the Government Car Service since the Government 297W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 298W
In taking this forward, we are currently developing Countries invited Accepted/declined Military/civil representatives our thinking on manufacturing. It is clear we need a fresh approach which addresses the UK’s competitive France Accepted Military and Civilian advantage and weaknesses in manufacturing including Germany Accepted Military and Civilian productivity, skills, R and D and exports. We are keen Greece Accepted Military and Civilian to ensure that we provide the best long-term environment India Accepted Military and Civilian in which manufacturing can grow, recognising the vital Indonesia Accepted Military and Civilian role it plays in the UK economy. Iraq Accepted Military Italy Accepted Military and Civilian Motorsport and Aerospace Japan Accepted Military and Civilian Jordan Accepted Military Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Kuwait Accepted Military Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to Libya Accepted Military and Civilian take in response to the recommendations in the Malaysia Accepted Military and Civilian Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee’s Netherlands Accepted Military and Civilian Sixth Report of Session 2009-10, Full speed ahead: Norway Accepted Military and Civilian maintaining UK excellence in motorsport and Oman Accepted Military aerospace, HC173. [9146] Pakistan Accepted Military and Civilian Peru Declined — Mr Prisk: The Department responded to the Committee Poland Accepted Military and Civilian in a Command Paper (CM 7867) in April 2010. Qatar Accepted Military Nanotechnology Republic of Accepted Military and Civilian Korea Romania Accepted Military Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for South Africa Declined — Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of (a) Saudi Arabia Accepted Military cosmetics, (b) biocidal products, (c) food products Singapore Accepted Military and Civilian and (d) human medicines marketed in the UK Spain Accepted Military contained manufactured nanomaterials according to Sweden Accepted Military ISO definitions in the latest period for which figures are Switzerland Accepted Civilian available; and what steps his Department is taking to Thailand Declined — ensure that such products are safe for (i) consumers Turkey Accepted Military and Civilian and (ii) the environment. [4823] UAE Accepted Military Mr Prisk: The information requested is as follows. USA Accepted Military and Civilian Vietnam Accepted Military (a) We are not aware of the quantities of nanomaterials in cosmetics, but under the EU cosmetics directive cosmetic products are required to undergo a safety Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment which takes into account all aspects of the Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his product use and content, including particle size of the Department has provided to the 2010 Farnborough ingredients. Under the EU cosmetics regulation which International Airshow for the purposes of (a) meeting comes into force in 2013, the requirements for the safety the costs of the event and (b) hosting official assessment remain, but new requirements will be brought delegations; and if he will make a statement. [9725] in to provide competent authorities with more information about products containing nanomaterials. Mr Prisk: No funding has been provided to the Farnborough International Airshow to meet the costs BIS are not the lead Department for the other areas of the event. These are all met by the private sector. of the hon. Member’s question but we have received the following contributions from the relevant Departments. No direct costs, other than staff time and related staff travel expenses, have been incurred on hosting official (b) Biocidal products currently subject to specific delegations. national controls under the Control of Pesticides Regulations 1986 are wood preservatives, public hygiene Manufacturing Industries: Employment insecticides and insect repellents used on animals, Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for rodenticides and antifouling coatings. There are Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking approximately 2000 biocidal products approved under to increase employment in the manufacturing sector; the 1986 regulations. We are not aware that any of them and if he will make a statement. [9278] contain manufactured nanomaterials, although many were approved years before the development of this Mr Prisk: The Government are supporting employment relatively new technology. However, the national scheme in the manufacturing industry by creating a stable business is being progressively overtaken by a European scheme environment that will give businesses the confidence under the Biocidal Products Directive 98/8/EC, which is they need to plan and invest for the future. We are doing implemented in the UK by the Biocidal Products this by creating a more supportive tax environment, Regulations 2001 and equivalent legislation in Northern freeing up credit through the banking system, reducing Ireland. Under the directive the scope of biocidal products regulation, maximising the flexibility of the labour market is broadened to include disinfectants. Currently there and focusing on training and apprenticeships. For example, are only three biocidal products authorised under the we have already redirected £150 million to create up to new biocides legislation, none of which contain 50,000 extra apprenticeships, which will be workplace-based nanomaterials. However, the number authorised under and employer-led. the new scheme will grow in future. 299W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 300W
The existing national and EU schemes are broadly composite structures quickly and cost effectively. The similar. Both afford high levels of protection to people global shift from metal to lightweight extra strong and the environment. Active substances, the ingredients composite materials in sectors such as aerospace, wind that have the biocidal effect, are subject to detailed energy and marine will provide vast commercial toxicological and ecotoxicological assessment before opportunities and the NCC will help UK companies they can be used in biocidal products. In addition, each realise these opportunities. Greater use of lightweight biocidal product is subject to detailed assessment of composites in transport vehicles will, through reduced risk, covering both people and the environment. Biocidal fuel consumption, help deliver significant CO2 emission products are only authorised for supply and use when savings. The centre will be operational in August 2011. expert assessment and validation confirms that risks are very low, where appropriate conditions of authorisation Post Offices: Bank Services are imposed. (c) The Food Standards Agency is aware of only one Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for food product on the UK market produced using Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many (a) nanotechnologies, a food supplement that consists of a current and (b) basic bank account transactions in nanoemulsion of co-enzyme Q10. respect of accounts of high street banks were undertaken over Post Office counters in 2009-10; [9160] (d) Human medicines are regulated in the UK by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (2) how many (a) balance inquiries and (b) cash (MHRA). It is not possible to give an accurate percentage withdrawals from high street bank accounts were of UK licensed medicinal products that contain handled by the Post Office ATM network in 2009-10. nanomaterials as defined by ISO/TS 27687:2009 because [9335] that is only a recent definition. However, approximately 5% of licensed medicinal products in the UK contain Mr Davey: I have asked David Smith, the managing colloidal silicon dioxide. This material has been used as director of Post Office Ltd, to respond directly to my a pharmaceutical powder flow aid for many years and hon. Friend and a copy of his reply will be placed in the the MHRA is not aware of any safety issues that have Libraries of the House. arisen following extensive clinical use. Regional Growth Fund Additionally, a small number of medicinal products (< 1%) contain nanoparticles in the form of liposomes Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for (e.g. Caelyx, Myocet), polymer protein conjugates (e.g. Business, Innovation and Skills by what mechanism the PegIntron, Somavert), polymeric substances (e.g. Copaxone) regional growth fund will be administered. [8696] suspensions (e.g. Rapamune, Emend) or viral-vectored vaccines. The manufacturing of these products often Mr Prisk: The Regional Growth Fund was announced employs standard processes, which are well-described in the Budget on 22 June. The fund will be available in and understood and include the formation of mixed 2011-12 and 2012-13 and will support increases in business micelles (Liposomal Doxorubicin) or colloidal dispersions employment and economic growth by funding regional (Sonovue), the manufacture of large peptides by standard capital projects. synthetic techniques or the manufacture of large molecules The details of the fund are still to be determined and by standard polymerisation methods. will be set out in a White Paper later in the summer, but For human medicines the manufacture, sale, supply proposals will be sought from private bodies and public and importation of medicinal products into the UK is private partnerships. We would expect successful bids to governed by Directive 2001/83/EC as amended. All demonstrate how their proposal will support sustainable medicines on the UK market have been assessed as increases in business employment and growth in their acceptably efficacious and safe. Public health is safeguarded local economy or community. by the use of robust and evidence-based assessments for The final decision on bids will be made jointly by the each medicinal product to ensure that the benefits to Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the patient outweigh any risks. the Secretary of State for Communities and Local (i) and (ii) The Government have an extensive research Government and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. programme to promote the responsible development They will be supported in making decisions by a new and safe use of nanotechnologies. This work aims to independent advisory panel. improve understanding of the behaviour of nanomaterials and their effects on human health and the environment, Sector Skills Councils in particular focusing on those materials and products which are currently available or close to the market, and Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of includes collaboration in national and global initiatives. State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the terms of reference are of each sector skills council; and National Composite Centre what assessment he has made of the performance by each in fulfilling its remit. [10046] Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on Mr Hayes: The terms of reference for all Sector Skills the future of the National Composite Centre; and if he Councils (SSC) focuses on raising employer engagement, will make a statement. [9334] demand and investment in skills; a lead role in collating and communicating authoritative labour market Mr Prisk: We fully support the creation of the National information; and, a lead role in vocational qualifications, Composite Centre (NCC) in Bristol. It will play a key apprenticeship frameworks and national occupational part in developing the UK’s capability to manufacture standards. In addition each SSC business plan sets out 301W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 302W the sectoral objectives specific to the needs of their Table 1: 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, employment or training in English employers and industries. In 2009/10 all SSCs went regions, quarter one 2009 95% Confidence through a high performance assessment undertaken by Number Percentage Interval the National Audit Office and the UK Commission to ensure they can deliver against the core remit. The England 933,000 15.5 +/-0.7 business plans, assessment reports and skills audits of North East 58,000 18.1 +/-3.2 all SSCs are available in the public domain. North West 156,000 18.5 +/-2.1 Yorks and 109,000 16.0 +/- 2.2 Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of Humber State for Business, Innovation and Skills what East Midlands 70,000 12.9 +/-2.1 assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the West Midlands 125,000 19.9 +/-2.4 process followed by each sector skills council in taking East of England 84,000 13.6 +/-2.1 into account the views of (a) learners and (b) further London 120,000 13.8 +/-2.0 education colleges in developing qualifications under South East 132,000 14.1 +/-1.8 South West 80,000 13.9 +/-2.3 the Qualifications and Credit Framework. [10047] 1 Aged used in NEET statistics is academic age, which is defined as a respondents age as at the preceding 31 August. Mr Hayes: Vocational qualifications are developed by awarding organisations in consultation with Sector The regional estimates for quarter one 2009 are taken Skills Councils, who then approve them for the Qualification from the Labour Force Survey, which does not have a and Credit Framework (QCF). In developing qualifications, large enough sample to calculate estimates for smaller awarding organisations and Sector Skills Councils seek geographies. However, it is possible to calculate estimates and take close account of the views of learners and of young people NEET in local authorities from the colleges, as well as employers, to ensure that the Annual Population Survey, which has a larger sample qualifications are needed by employers and valued by than the quarterly Labour Force Survey. The estimates learners. Ofqual ensure that vocational qualifications provided in Table 2 cover the period between January to meet the QCF’s rigorous regulatory arrangements before December 2009. accrediting them. Although local authority level estimates can be calculated The UK Commission for Employment and Skills is from the Annual Population Survey, these estimates are evaluating the effectiveness of the QCF, including the generally subject to large sampling variability and some new vocational qualifications being developed for it. estimates for smaller authorities will be based on very small samples subject to extreme variability. The estimates in Table 2 should therefore be treated with considerable Sunday Trading: Christmas caution and viewed in conjunction with their Confidence Intervals2, which indicate how accurate an estimate is. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for For example, a Confidence Interval of +/-4 percentage Business, Innovation and Skills if he will ensure there is points (pp) means that the true value is between 4pp no relaxation of restrictions on Sunday trading on above the estimate and 4pp below the estimate. Boxing Day 2010. [10192] 2 Those given are 95% confidence intervals Mr Davey: The Government currently have no plans Table 2: 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, employment or training in local to relax restrictions on Sunday trading on Boxing day authorities, 2009 Confidence 2010. Number Percentage Interval (%)
Unemployment: Young People England 972,000 16.2 +/- 0.5 Barking and 4,000 18 +/- 8 Dagenham Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Barnet 5,000 18 +/-10 Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what Barnsley 6,000 22 +/- 6 percentage of people aged 16 to 24 years were not in Bath and North 3,000 10 +/-5 education, employment or training in each (a) region East Somerset and (b) local authority in the first quarter of 2009. Bedfordshire 6,000 15 +/-6 [10129] Bexley 3,000 10 +/-6 Birmingham 31,000 23 +/-5 Mr Hayes: Estimates of the number of people aged1 Blackburn with 3,000 19 +/-6 16 to 24 not in education, employment or training Darwen (NEET) derived from the Labour Force Survey are Blackpool 4,000 22 +/-6 published quarterly by the Department for Education. Bolton 7,000 19 +/-6 The latest publication can be found online at: Bournemouth 3,000 13 +/-5 Bracknell Forest 2,000 19 +/-7 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000924/ Bradford 11,000 18 +/-6 index.shtml Brent 3,000 15 +/-10 and includes supplementary tables giving breakdowns Brighton and 6,000 17 +/-5 by region. The regional estimates for quarter 1 2009 are Hove reproduced in Table 1. Quarterly NEET estimates show Bristol 8,000 14 +/-5 a seasonal pattern, with figures at their highest in Bromley 2,000 11 +/-10 quarter three each year. While quarter four is most Buckinghamshire 7,000 13 +/-6 commonly used for standard reporting, estimates for Bury 5,000 23 +/-7 quarter one are usually broadly in line with quarter Calderdale 5,000 19 +/-6 four. Cambridgeshire 7,000 10 +/-5 303W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 304W
Table 2: 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, employment or training in local Table 2: 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, employment or training in local authorities, 2009 authorities, 2009 Confidence Confidence Number Percentage Interval (%) Number Percentage Interval (%)
Camden 5,000 17 +/-7 North East 5,000 23 +/-6 Cheshire 13,000 18 +/-5 Lincolnshire Cornwall 6,000 12 +/-5 North 3,000 19 +/-7 Lincolnshire Coventry 7,000 15 +/-5 North Somerset 1,000 7 +/-5 Croydon 7,000 17 +/-8 North Tyneside 5,000 27 +/-8 Cumbria 9,000 19 +/-6 North Yorkshire 9,000 14 +/-6 Darlington 3,000 22 +/-6 Northamptonshire 14,000 16 +/-5 Derby 7,000 21 +/-6 Northumberland 5,000 17 +/-7 Derbyshire 10,000 12 +/-5 Nottingham 8,000 13 +/-4 Devon 10,000 12 +/-5 Nottinghamshire 12,000 14 +/-5 Doncaster 10,000 27 +/-6 Oldham 6,000 24 +/-6 Dorset 6,000 16 +/-6 Oxfordshire 7,000 9 +/-5 Dudley 7,000 19 +/-6 Peterborough 3,000 15 +/-5 Durham 11,000 18 +/-6 Plymouth 4,000 11 +/-5 Ealing 6,000 16 +/-8 Poole 2,000 16 +/-6 East Riding of 4,000 13 +/-6 Yorkshire Portsmouth 4,000 13 +/-5 East Sussex 9,000 19 +/-7 Reading 3,000 14 +/-6 Enfield 6,000 22 +/-8 Redbridge 4,000 16 +/-8 Essex 25,000 16 +/-4 Redcar and 5,000 27 +/-7 Cleveland Gateshead 4,000 18 +/-6 Richmond upon 3,000 16 +/-9 Gloucestershire 11,000 19 +/-7 Thames Greenwich 3,000 13 +/-7 Rochdale 5,000 21 +/-6 Hackney 5,000 26 +/-9 Rotherham 6,000 23 +/-7 Halton 4,000 23 +/-6 Rutland 1— 1— 1— Hammersmith 3,000 13 +/-8 Salford 8,000 24 +/-6 and Fulham Sandwell 11,000 29 +/-6 Hampshire 17,000 12 +/-3 Sefton 6,000 19 +/-6 Haringey 7,000 23 +/-8 Sheffield 12,000 14 +/-5 Harrow 1,000 6 +/-7 Shropshire 3,000 11 +/-5 Hartlepool 3,000 28 +/-7 Slough 2,000 13 +/-5 Havering 3,000 12 +/-7 Solihull 5,000 20 +/-6 Herefordshire 2,000 14 +/-7 Somerset 9,000 14 +/-6 Hertfordshire 10,000 10 +/-4 South 3,000 11 +/-5 Hillingdon 3,000 8 +/-6 Gloucestershire Hounslow 4,000 14 +/-8 South Tyneside 5,000 28 +/-7 Isle of Wight 3,000 22 +/-8 Southampton 6,000 18 +/-6 Islington 5,000 19 +/-8 Southend on 3,000 21 +/-7 Kensington and 1,000 9 +/-8 Sea Chelsea Southwark 5,000 13 +/-7 Kent 25,000 16 +/-4 St Helens 4,000 21 +/-6 Kingston upon 10,000 24 +/-5 Staffordshire 13,000 14 +/-4 Hull Stockport 6,000 18 +/-6 Kingston upon 1,000 6 +/-5 Thames Stockton-on- 4,000 18 +/-6 Tees Kirklees 9,000 23 +/-7 Stoke-on-Trent 7,000 25 +/-6 Knowsley 4,000 20 +/-6 Suffolk 10,000 14 +/-5 Lambeth 4,000 14 +/-7 Sunderland 9,000 24 +/-6 Lancashire 23,000 17 +/-4 Surrey 7,000 7 +/-3 Leeds 17,000 13 +/-4 Sutton 2,000 16 +/-9 Leicester 8,000 18 +/-5 Swindon 4,000 18 +/-6 Leicestershire 9,000 13 +/-5 Tameside 6,000 20 +/-6 Lewisham 5,000 17 +/-9 Lincolnshire 12,000 16 +/-5 Telford and 4,000 23 +/-6 Wrekin Liverpool 16,000 24 +/-6 Thurrock 4,000 24 +/-7 Luton 5,000 21 +/-6 Torbay 2,000 19 +/-7 Manchester 12,000 15 +/-4 Tower Hamlets 8,000 25 +/-8 Medway 7,000 20 +/-6 Trafford 5,000 20 +/-6 Merton 2,000 11 +/-7 Middlesbrough 4,000 21 +/-6 Wakefield 9,000 22 +/-6 Milton Keynes 5,000 17 +/-7 Walsall 5,000 17 +/-6 Newcastle upon 8,000 17 +/-5 Waltham Forest 3,000 10 +/-6 Tyne Wandsworth 2,000 6 +/-6 Newham 7,000 22 +/-7 Warrington 4,000 18 +/-6 Norfolk 15,000 16 +/-5 Warwickshire 8,000 15 +/-6 305W Written Answers20 JULY 2010 Written Answers 306W
Table 2: 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, employment or training in local boundary. City of Durham constituency, as constituted in 2008, authorities, 2009 consisted of 20 electoral wards, nine more than the current Confidence constituency. The breakdown of the data available is not sufficiently Number Percentage Interval (%) detailed to determine whether the newly constituted parliamentary constituency contains the same estimated number of lone parents West Berkshire 1,000 7 +/-5 as the 2008 constituency. West Sussex 13,000 18 +/-6 Westminster 5,000 18 +/-9 Number of lone parent families with at least Wigan 8,000 22 +/-6 Geographical area one child under 16 (thousand)1 Wiltshire 5,000 11 +/-6 City of Durham constituency 2 Windsor and 3,000 20 +/-7 (2008) Maidenhead 1 As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject to a margin of Wirral 7,000 21 +/-6 uncertainty and are therefore presented rounded to the nearest thousand. Wokingham 2,000 10 +/-5 Source: Wolverhampton 7,000 24 +/-6 APS January to December 2008. Worcestershire 8,000 14 +/-6 Lone Parents: Newport York 3,000 10 +/-5 1 Number less than 500 Note: Jessica Morden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Numbers are rounded to the nearest 1,000. Office how many lone parents there are in Newport Base: 16-24 year olds East constituency. [8479] Source: 2009 Annual Population Survey Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. CABINET OFFICE Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: Lone Parents: Durham As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your request to ask the Minister for Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many lone parents there are in Newport the Cabinet Office how many lone parents there are in East constituency. (8479) City of Durham constituency. [8462] The number and type of families in the UK can be estimated using the Annual Population Survey (APS). Estimates are provided Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the for lone parent families which include at least one child aged responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have under 16. asked the authority to reply. The latest available figure is for 2008 and is shown in the table below. This is based on the 2008 parliamentary constituency Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: boundary and there have been no boundary changes since 2008 in As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I the area requested. have been asked to reply to your request to ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many lone parents there are in City of Number of lone parent families with at least Durham constituency. (8462) Geographical area one child under 16 (thousand)1
The number and type of families in the UK can be estimated Newport East constituency 2 using the Annual Population Survey (APS). Estimates are provided (2008) for lone parent families which include at least one child aged 1 As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject to a margin of under 16. uncertainty and are therefore presented rounded to the nearest thousand. The latest available figure is for 2008 and is shown in the table Source: APS January to December 2008. below. This is based on the 2008 parliamentary constituency
ORAL ANSWERS
Tuesday 20 July 2010
Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 153 JUSTICE—continued Administrative Penalties ...... 154 Prisoner Numbers...... 165 Community Service Sentences...... 155 Prisoner Release (Risk Assessment)...... 153 Complaint Systems (Victims of Crime)...... 158 Reoffending Rates...... 163 Crown Dependencies ...... 158 Short Prison Sentences...... 166 Defendant Anonymity (Rape Cases)...... 160 Topical Questions ...... 168 Foreign National Prisoners ...... 164 Universal Jurisdiction Offences (Prosecution)...... 165 Human Rights Act 1998 ...... 156 Wisbech Magistrates Court...... 167 Magistrates Courts...... 157 Young Offenders ...... 161 National Offender Management Service ...... 159 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS
Tuesday 20 July 2010
Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 7WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 11WS “A Strategy for Sustainable Growth” ...... 7WS Serious Organised Crime Agency (Annual Report) ...... 11WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 8WS Sport (Priorities) ...... 8WS JUSTICE...... 11WS Bribery Act ...... 11WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 9WS Rural Payments Agency ...... 9WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 12WS Machinery of Government Changes ...... 12WS HEALTH...... 10WS Commission on the Funding of Care and TREASURY ...... 8WS Support...... 10WS Office of Tax Simplification...... 8WS WRITTEN ANSWERS
Tuesday 20 July 2010
Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 173W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Departmental Billing ...... 173W Sector Skills Councils...... 300W Departmental Civil Servants ...... 173W Sunday Trading: Christmas...... 301W Unemployment: Young People...... 301W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 289W Adult Education: Finance...... 289W CABINET OFFICE...... 305W Adult Education: Incapacity Benefit...... 291W Lone Parents: Durham ...... 305W Apprentices: Construction ...... 291W Lone Parents: Newport...... 306W Apprentices: West Midlands ...... 292W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 293W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 212W Business: EU Law ...... 293W Departmental Civil Servants ...... 212W Business: Government Assistance ...... 293W Departmental Equality ...... 212W Civil Servants: Location...... 293W Departmental Legislation ...... 213W Construction...... 293W Departmental Manpower...... 213W Credit: Low Incomes...... 294W Departmental Official Cars...... 213W Departmental Equality ...... 294W Departmental Operating Costs ...... 213W Departmental NDPBs...... 295W Departmental Pay ...... 214W Departmental Official Cars...... 295W Departmental Training ...... 214W Departmental Public Consultation...... 295W Departmental Travel ...... 214W Departmental Travel ...... 295W EU Law...... 215W East of England Development Agency: Internet.... 296W Faiths Consultative Council...... 215W Farnborough Airshow...... 296W Fire Services...... 216W Manufacturing Industries: Employment ...... 297W Green Belt...... 216W Motorsport and Aerospace ...... 298W Homelessness...... 217W Nanotechnology ...... 298W Housing: Construction...... 218W National Composite Centre ...... 299W Housing: Empty Property ...... 219W Post Offices: Bank Services ...... 300W Housing: Regeneration...... 219W Regional Growth Fund ...... 300W Local Government Finance: West Midlands ...... 220W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued continued Departmental Training ...... 241W Local Government Services...... 220W Energy...... 241W Minerals...... 220W Energy: Public Buildings...... 241W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 221W National Grid: Security...... 242W Non-domestic Rates: Ports...... 222W Radioactive Waste: Waste Management...... 243W Regional Development Agencies...... 223W Renewable Energy...... 244W Transport: Finance...... 223W Wind Power: Planning Permission ...... 246W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 223W Yorkshire Dales National Park: Public ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Consultation ...... 224W AFFAIRS...... 174W Birds: Licensing ...... 174W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 194W Fisheries: Quotas ...... 175W Arts Industry ...... 194W Hill Farming ...... 177W Departmental ICT ...... 194W Marine Disposal: Rame Head South ...... 177W Departmental Manpower...... 195W Peat...... 178W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 195W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 196W Libraries ...... 196W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 189W London 2012 Business Network...... 196W Afghanistan: International Assistance ...... 189W Public Libraries: Expenditure ...... 197W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 189W Television: Licensing ...... 197W Afghanistan: Politics and Government ...... 190W Theatres: Young People...... 197W Asia: International Cooperation ...... 190W Departmental Billing ...... 191W DEFENCE...... 179W English Channel...... 191W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 179W European Parliament ...... 191W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 180W European Parliament Elections...... 191W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 181W Forced Marriage ...... 192W Army: Radio ...... 181W Kashmir...... 192W Chiefs of Staff: Expenses ...... 181W Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty ...... 192W Defence Equipment ...... 181W Palestinians: Politics and Government ...... 193W Ex-Servicemen ...... 182W Somalia...... 193W Iraq and Afghanistan: Members ...... 182W Western Sahara: Politics and Government ...... 194W Military Bases...... 182W Type 45 Destroyers...... 183W HEALTH...... 203W Departmental Billing ...... 203W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 248W Departmental Civil Servants ...... 204W Departmental Internet ...... 248W Dietary Supplements...... 204W Electoral Register...... 249W Doctors and Nurses: Foreign Workers ...... 205W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 252W Food Standards Agency...... 205W General Practitioners ...... 205W EDUCATION...... 259W Health Services: Standards...... 206W Charities ...... 259W Macfarlane Trust: Finance...... 206W Departmental Buildings...... 260W Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen ...... 206W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 260W NHS: Abortion...... 207W Departmental Reorganisation...... 261W NHS: Local Government ...... 207W Departmental Utilities ...... 261W Patients’ Rights: EU Action...... 208W EC Law...... 261W Streptococcal Infections: Babies...... 208W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 262W Sunbeds: Young People...... 209W Education: Public Expenditure ...... 262W Sutton and Merton Primary Care Trust: Finance .. 209W Free School Meals: Greater Manchester ...... 262W Swine Flu: Death ...... 209W GCE A-Level ...... 263W Swine Flu: Disease Control...... 210W GCSE: Enfield North ...... 263W Swine Flu: Vaccination ...... 210W National Curriculum Tests...... 264W Wharfedale Hospital...... 212W Schools: Rural Areas...... 265W Schools: Transport ...... 265W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 198W Short Stay Schools ...... 266W Civil Partnerships...... 198W Short Stay Schools: Special Educational Needs ..... 266W Departmental Official Cars...... 198W Special Educational Needs: Teachers ...... 269W Domestic Violence ...... 198W Young People: Antisocial Behaviour ...... 270W Domestic Violence: Refuges...... 198W Firearms ...... 199W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 252W Forensic Science: DNA ...... 199W Electoral Register...... 252W Immigration Controls ...... 200W Labour Party: Finance ...... 252W Immigration: Departmental Co-ordination...... 200W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 200W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 240W Offensive Weapons...... 201W Carbon Emissions...... 240W Sexual Offences...... 201W Departmental Official Cars...... 240W Sojourner Project ...... 202W Departmental Regulations ...... 240W Violent and Sex Offender Register ...... 202W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 240W Violent and Sex Offender Register: Offences Departmental Secondment ...... 241W Against Children...... 203W Col. No. Col. No. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 247W TRANSPORT—continued Early Day Motions ...... 247W Railways: Overcrowding...... 187W House of Commons Commission: Finance...... 247W Railways: Theft ...... 188W House of Commons: Parking...... 248W Roads: Nottinghamshire ...... 188W Nurseries...... 248W Sea Rescue ...... 188W Speed Limits: Cameras...... 188W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Vehicle Operator Services Agency...... 189W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 257W Members: Addresses ...... 257W TREASURY ...... 253W Members: Claims...... 258W Banks: Finance ...... 253W Members: Training...... 259W BP: Gulf of Mexico ...... 253W Coinage: Anniversaries ...... 253W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 270W Departmental Billing ...... 253W Developing Countries: Food ...... 270W Departmental Civil Servants ...... 254W International Assistance...... 270W Departmental Secondment ...... 254W Overseas Aid...... 270W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation .. 254W Housing: Rents ...... 254W JUSTICE...... 224W Public Sector: North East ...... 255W Asylum ...... 225W Research and Development Tax Credit ...... 255W Convictions: Fly-tipping ...... 226W State Retirement Pensions...... 255W Convictions: Regulation of Investigatory Powers Sterling...... 257W Act 2000...... 225W VAT: Religious Buildings ...... 257W Court Cases: Adjournment ...... 225W VAT: Wales ...... 258W Courts...... 228W Courts: Fines ...... 227W WALES...... 174W Courts: Video Equipment ...... 229W Departmental Civil Servants ...... 174W Departmental Civil Servants ...... 233W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 246W Gary Critchley ...... 234W Departmental Location...... 246W Hillsborough Disaster...... 224W Equal Pay: Gender...... 246W Industrial Health and Safety...... 234W Legal Aid: Clinical Negligence Cases...... 224W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 271W Magistrates ...... 234W Carer’s Allowance ...... 271W Magistrates Courts...... 224W Departmental Official Photographs ...... 271W Non-molestation Orders ...... 235W Departmental Reorganisation...... 272W Offences Against Children: Foster Care ...... 235W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 272W Prison Officers: Pay and Pensions ...... 225W Disability Living Allowance...... 272W Prison Sentences ...... 235W Employment and Support Allowance: Arthritis..... 273W Prison Service: Manpower ...... 236W Employment Schemes ...... 273W Prison Service: Probation Service...... 236W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 274W Prisoners: Drugs ...... 236W Flexible Working: Disability ...... 274W Prisoners: Per Capita Costs...... 237W Funeral Payments: West Midlands...... 274W Sentencing...... 237W Future Jobs Fund...... 275W Tribunals: Disability Living Allowance ...... 239W Government Departments: Recruitment ...... 275W War Crimes...... 239W Housing Benefit ...... 275W Housing Benefit: Ashton-in-Makerfield...... 278W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 178W Housing Benefit: Bexley...... 278W Departmental Billing ...... 178W Housing Benefit: Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 279W Jobcentre Plus: Telephone Services ...... 279W SCOTLAND...... 178W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Greater London ...... 280W Broadband: Scotland ...... 178W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Liverpool...... 280W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 179W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lone Parents ...... 280W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 179W Maternity Benefits ...... 281W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 281W TRANSPORT ...... 183W Pension Credit: West Midlands ...... 282W A338 ...... 183W Pensioners: Bristol ...... 282W Departmental Lighting ...... 184W Pensioners: Edinburgh ...... 282W Driving: Training ...... 183W Pensioners: Greater London ...... 283W Electric Vehicles ...... 185W Pensioners: Liverpool...... 283W Freight ...... 185W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 284W M1 ...... 185W Social Security Benefits: Liverpool...... 286W Merchant Shipping ...... 186W Temporary Employment ...... 287W Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties...... 187W Unemployment ...... 288W Railways: East Anglia ...... 187W Unemployment Benefits: Drugs ...... 287W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS
Tuesday 20 July 2010
Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 153] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice
Office of Tax Simplification [Col. 175] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Gauke)
Parliamentary Standards (Amendment) [Col. 188] Bill presented, and read the First time
Safety of Medicines [Col. 189] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Amess)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill [Col. 191] Read a Second and Third time and passed
Finance Bill [Col. 192] Read the Third time and passed
Backbench Business [1st allotted day—first half] Information for Backbenchers on Statements [Col. 244] Motion—(Mr Hollobone)—agreed to
Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom Youth Parliament) [Col. 290] Motion—(Mr Heath); Division deferred till Wednesday 21 July
Petitions [Col. 320]
Dangerous Dogs [Col. 322] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Westminster Hall North-West Economy [Col. 1WH] Coastal Towns (Government Policy) [Col. 24WH] University Funding (Yorkshire) [Col. 48WH] Equitable Life [Col. 56WH] Ministry of Defence (Statistics) [Col. 65WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment
Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 7WS]
Written Answers to Questions [Col. 173W] [see index inside back page]