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Parliamentary Debates House of Commons Official Report General Committees PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee POLICE REFORM AND SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY BILL Fifth Sitting Tuesday 25 January 2011 (Morning) CONTENTS Written evidence reported to the House. Clause 1 under consideration when the Committee adjourned till this day at Four o’clock. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £5·00 PBC (Bill 116) 2010 - 2011 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Saturday 29 January 2011 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 135 Public Bill Committee25 JANUARY 2011 Police Reform and Social 136 Responsibility Bill The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: MR JOE BENTON,MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE,†MR GEORGE HOWARTH,MR GARY STREETER † Brokenshire, James (Parliamentary Under-Secretary † Macleod, Mary (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con) of State for the Home Department) † Mills, Nigel (Amber Valley) (Con) † Burley, Mr Aidan (Cannock Chase) (Con) † Offord, Mr Matthew (Hendon) (Con) † Coaker, Vernon (Gedling) (Lab) † Phillipson, Bridget (Houghton and Sunderland † Crockart, Mike (Edinburgh West) (LD) South) (Lab) Donaldson, Mr Jeffrey M. (Lagan Valley) (DUP) † Ruane, Chris (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab) † Efford, Clive (Eltham) (Lab) † Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab) † Ellis, Michael (Northampton North) (Con) † Wright, Jeremy (Lord Commissioner of Her † Herbert, Nick (Minister for Policing and Criminal Majesty’s Treasury) Justice) † Huppert, Dr Julian (Cambridge) (LD) James Rhys, Committee Clerk † Johnson, Diana (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab) † McCabe, Steve (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab) † attended the Committee 137 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Police Reform and Social 138 Responsibility Bill Amendment 104, in clause 1, page 2, line 32, leave out Public Bill Committee subsection (9). Amendment 105, in clause 1, page 2, line 34, at end add Tuesday 25 January 2011 ‘in those areas selected to pilot schemes for directly elected policing and crime commissioners in accordance with subsection (1).’. (Morning) Vernon Coaker: May I begin, Mr Howarth, by welcoming you to the Chair? The two Chairs under whom we served during the evidence sessions are away, but it is [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] very good to be here under your chairmanship. I also say good morning to the rest of the Committee. I have Police Reform and Social Responsibility debated with two or three of the Government members of the Committee a number of times, so I know that Bill this will be an interesting exchange in the best spirit and traditions of the word. Written evidence to be reported to the The amendments would establish pilots. One of the premises behind the Bill is that crime and policing are in House crisis. However, figures released just last week continue PR 86 West Midlands Police Authority to show significant falls in crime. The figures to September PR 87 Judy Griffiths 2010 show that recorded crime is down by 7%, and that PR 88 Ian Collins MBII is on top of—the Association of Police Authorities briefing tells us this—a 30% fall in crime year on year PR 89 Phil Simmons over the past decade. According to the most recent PR 90 Andrew Cochrane British crime survey, crime is at its lowest level for three PR 91 Council for Arab British Understanding (CAABU) decades. It dipped below 10 million offences with a PR 92 Palestine Solidarity Campaign 9% fall last year to the lowest level since comparable records began. We also learn from the APA that figures PR 93 Our Life showing confidence in the police are rising, although PR 94 De Grazia Associates Ltd they are still not high enough—none of us would say that they were. The Government’s Bill says that change is needed, and although hon. Members will see from Clause 1 our amendments that we accept that the status quo needs to be examined and changed, we do not accept that the measure is made necessary because of a dramatic POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONERS crime problem or a major problem with confidence in the police. 10.30 am Although some of the witnesses from whom we heard Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I beg to move last week said that they did not believe in pilots, it is amendment 102, in clause 1, page 1, line 6, at end important to note that hardly any of them supported insert— what the Government are doing. When the Minister responds to the debate, it will be interesting if he will tell ‘(1) The Secretary of State may put in place arrangements for pilot schemes to trial directly elected policing and crime us who supports their actions—apart from himself, the commissioners in a minimum of two police areas and a whipped Government Members sitting behind him and maximum of four police areas under Schedule 1 to the Police Act a couple of people around No. 10 Downing street. In 1996. other words, why is a pilot not necessary? (2) These pilot schemes must be independently assessed as to So many people support a pilot that it is a given that their success in strengthening policing governance and reducing we ought to conduct one. When hon. Members talk to governance costs after 12 months and the findings of such their local councillors, police authorities and everyone independent assessment must be laid before Parliament for scrutiny. else, I do not think that they will find that their constituencies are full of people demanding the introduction (3) Parliament must then make recommendations to the of police and crime commissioners. In fact, I have not Secretary of State as to whether directly elected policing and crime commissioners should be put in place in every police area heard one person demanding that—I do not know in England and Wales. whether anyone else has. Perhaps the Government’s (4) The Secretary of State must have regard to Parliament’s deliberate ploy is to sneak this through without anyone recommendations. realising what is happening. No one has come to my (5) In those areas selected to pilot schemes for directly elected surgery to say that there is a problem, so let us hold the policing and crime commissioners, the following arrangements pilots and see whether people want these measures. shall be put in place.’. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is even more important to have The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss these pilots in Wales, where many areas of government, the following: such as local government, health and all the partnerships Amendment 103, in clause 1, page 1, line 7, leave out that help to combat crime, are devolved? We need to from ‘each’ to end of line 8 and insert learn lessons prior to full implementation, especially in ‘police area selected for pilot schemes in accordance with subsection (1).’. areas such as Wales. 139 Public Bill Committee25 JANUARY 2011 Police Reform and Social 140 Responsibility Bill Vernon Coaker: I agree with that. The Minister for Vernon Coaker: The honest answer is that I do not Policing and Criminal Justice is responsible for policing know, but when the Minister responds to the debate, it in England and Wales, so I want him to tell us who in will be interesting to hear his answer to my hon. Friend’s Wales supports what he is doing. According to the question. submissions that we have received from Police Authorities Members of the Committee might not have noticed of Wales, it is totally opposed to what the Government this, but pilots are now even more necessary, following are doing, yet the Minister ploughs on because he the withdrawal of amendment 7. That Liberal thinks that he knows better. This is an important point, Democrat amendment was originally going to be the because if there was huge pent-up demand and people lead amendment of the third group on the selection were saying, “We would have better policing on our list. We would have supported the interesting proposal streets and we would improve how we tackle crime if that it put forward, so it is regrettable that it has been only we had police and crime commissioners,” there withdrawn. If Liberal Democrat Members do not wish would be no need for pilots. to return to it, we will. Liberal Democrat members of the Committee are part of the Government, yet the I would have thought that those who have opposed fact that they tabled an amendment stating that a the scheme in their written submissions to us would referendum should take place in every area means that welcome pilots so that they could find out whether they they have similar concerns to those that lead me to say were completely wrong. Authorities either oppose what that there should be pilots. In a sense, that amendment the Government are doing or have real concerns about was an attempt to determine who was in favour of it.
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