Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

Standing Committee on Law Amendments

Chairperson Mr. David Newman Constituency of Riel

Vol. XLVI No. 13-6 p.m., Monday, October 28, 1996 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Mem1Ders1 Constituencies and Political AtTiliation

Name Coostih•enc)' � ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Anhur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON·, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Nia.kwa PC. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Ross mere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. 643

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMENTS

Monday, October 28,1996

TIME-6 p.m. Ms. Erica Stecheson, Private Citizen Mr. Dean Jonasson, Private Citizen Ms. Nancy Trush, Private Citizen LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba Ms. Gail Eliasson, EvergreenTeachers' Association Mr. Ernie Schiman, Intermountain Teachers' CHAIRPERSON-M r. David Newman (Riel) Association Mr. Geoff Robson, Morris-Macdonald Teachers' Association VICE- CHAIRPERSON- Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina) Mr. Harry McKnight, Private Citizen Mr. Steve Lawrie, Private Citizen ATTENDANCE-11-Q UORUM-6 Mr. Adam Grabowski, Private Citizen Mr. Fred Veldink, Private Citizen Members ofthe Committee present: Mr. Lawrie Kyle, Private Citizen Mr. Rob Hilliard, Manitoba Federation of Labour Hon. Mr. Derkach, Hon. Mcintosh, Hon. Messrs. Mr. HenryWedel, Transcona Teachers' Association Pallister, Reimer Mr. Donald Teel, Winnipeg Teachers' Association Mr. Ron Munro, River East Teachers' Association Ms. Cerilli, Mr. Dyck, Ms. Friesen, Ms. McGifford, Mr. Murray Grafton, St. Boniface Teachers' Ms. Mihychuk, Mr. Newman, Mrs. Render Association Mr. Jean Beaumont, Manitoba Association of School Superintendents APPEARING: Mr. Jake Peters, Assiniboine South Teachers' Association Mr. Gary Kowalski, MLA for The Maples Ms. Val Goodridge, Assiniboine South Teachers' Association WITNESSES: Ms. Phyllis Moore,The RetiredTeachers Association of Manitoba Ms. Betty Green, Manitoba Association of School Ms. Patricia Gendreau, Private Citizen Trustees Mr. David Harkness, Private Citizen Ms. Carolyn Duhamel, Manitoba Association of School Trustees MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Ms. BettyAnn Watts,Manitoba Association of School Trustees Bill 72-The Public Schools Amendment Act (2) Mr. Howard Friesen, Garden Valley School Division No. 26 Mr. CordellBarker, Pine Creek Teachers' Association WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS: Ms. Val Thomson, Private Citizen Ms. Lisa Martin, Private Citizen The Manitoba Association of School Business Ms. Caroline Evans, Souris Valley Teachers' Officials Inc. Association Mr. Edward H. Lipsett, Private Citizen Ms. Linda Dyrkacz, Agassiz Teachers' Association Ms. BettyGreen, Ms. Carolyn Duha mei,Ms. Betty Ann Mr. Greg Fritske, Brandon Teachers' Assocation Watts, Manitoba Association of School Trustees Mr. Paul LaRiviere, L'Association des Ms. Tricia Hallson, Private Citizen Educateurs/Educatrices Francophone du Manitoba Ms. Aurele Boisvert, Francophone School Division lllr lllr lllr 644 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I think in Mr. Chairperson: Good evening. Will the Standing orderto give some certainty to the manypeople who are Committee on Law Amendments please come to order. here tonight, I think we need to establish a time beyond Before commencing with the business before the which names will not be called. I would like to move committee, a Vice-Chairperson must be elected. Are thatthe committeenot call names after midnight, but that there any nominations? anyone who wishes to present after midnight, the committee will remain to hear them. Mrs. Shirley Render(St. Vital): Mr. Chair, I nominate the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). Mr. Chairperson: Any further discussion on that suggestion? Therebeing no further discussion, do I sense Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Dyck has been nominated. Are that there is unanimous consent fo r that approach? there any other nominations? Seeing none, Mr. Dyck is [agreed] elected as Vice-Chairperson to the committee. What about a time limit with respect to individual The business before the committeethis evening is the presentations? considemtion of Bill72,The Public Schools Amendment Act (2). Before continuing on with consideration of the Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Chairman, in light of bill, there are certain matters regarding process to clarify the fact that we have many presenters and I believe fo r at this point. For the committee's and public's common courtesyfor all of those who have come out, I inforqtation, there are currently 55 persons registered to would like to move that we allow lO minutes fo r speakto Bill72. A list of thepresenters should be before presentations and fiveminutes fo r questions. all committee members, as well as, postt:d at the back of the room For the public's information, if there is anyone Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chainnan, it is our position that present this evening who wishes to appear before the Manitobans whocome to resenp t to thesehear ings should committee and is notyet registered, you may register with beallowed to present the positionthat they have come to the Chamber staffat the back of the room andyour name on behalf of themselves or on the groups that theymay will be added to the list. represent.

* (1810) Mr. Chairperson: Any further discussion?

Interms of theorder that we will hear presenters, there Maybe at the outset, I could indicate that it is not are two factors that the committee may wish to consider. permitted, under the rules of the House, to have First, there are currently 22 persons registered to speak demonstrations of support or opposition to committee who are outfrom of town. They are indi<".atedas such by decisions orperf ormancesby presenters. It does cut into the asterisk after their name on the list. It has been a the timeand there are good practical reasons fo r it. Also, Manitobapmctice to hearfrom persons who are fromout no one would want to hurt the fee lings of someone that of townfirst, as a matter of courtesy fo r tliledistance they did not get applause, and let it go to their head if have travelled. Is there a wish of the committee to have someone got too much applause. Inany event, that is the out-of-town presenters go first? Is that agreed? [agreed] rule and I would appreciate observance of that rule, whatever the rationale fo r it. A second fa ctor considers that there are two persons who haverequested translation services in order to make their presentation in French and they are presenter No. With respect, then, to the time limit on individual ll, Paul LaRiviere, and presenter No. 38, Aurele presentations, we have the suggestion of Mr. Dyck. Are Boisvert, who are also fromout of town. you moving, Mr. Dyck, that the time limit be l 0 minutes on the initial presentation and five minutes fo r question How do the committee wish to proceed? Do the and answers? committee wish to set a time limit on the public presentations? Mr. Dyck: I so move. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 645

Voice Vote Mr. Chairperson: That is an overriding matter already agreed to. Is there someone prepared to then make a Mr. Chairperson: All in favour of that motion, please motion to the effect? say yea.

Mr. Dyck: Mr. Chairperson, I would move, then, that Some Honourable Members: Yea. we call the names twice and then that we delete them from the list. Mr. Chairperson: All opposed, please say nay. Mr. Chairperson: All in favour, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Some Honourable Members: Yeas. Mr. Chairperson: The motion carries. Mr. Chairperson: All opposed, please say nay. It is so An Honourable Member: On division. agreed.

Mr. Chairperson: On division. Finally, the committee has received written submission

* * * to Bill 72 from The Manitoba Association of School BusinessOffi cials Inc. and from Edward Lipsett, private citizen. The submissions have been distributed to Mr. Chairperson: Another matter to deal with is that of committee members. Does the committee wish to have persons whose names are called to make their these submissions appear at the back of the Hansard presentationand they are not here. It has been a practice transcript of this committee's meeting? Is that agreed? of the committee that in such a situation the name is [agreed] droppedto the bottom of the list and, ifthe name is called a second time and the person is not present, the name is We will now begin to hear public presentations but, dropped off the list. Did the committee wish to follow before that, I understand that the honourable mi�ster this practice? wishes to give some prior notice of some amendments which she proposes to introduce. Is that the will of the committee, to hearwhat those proposed amendments are? An Honourable Member: No. [agreed]

An Honourable Member: Agreed. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training):Just for the information for the members and Mr. Chairperson: We have a difference of opinion also for presenters who may be interested in these here, it appears. particular ones, I have three amendments that I am planning to introduce at the end of the hearings that-I Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I was under the mean, there may be more, I do not know-but these were impression that people were called twice and then on the threethat we knowwe will be bringing forward. I would third time they would drop off the list. indicate thatClause 129(3)in Section 18, which has been much discussedsince thebiD was first put together, is the Mr. Chairperson: That was an exception to the practice clause onthe abilityto pay and, for two reasons, one, the held in one particularcommittee meeting considering one Manitoba Teachers' Society felt that the wording of that particular bill, but that was a departure from the practice, clause could lead to a predetermined conclusion and I am advised, and that is my own knowledge as well. would give too much power to boards; similarly, the Any further discussion on this issue? Manitoba Association of School Trustees, after consulting with trustees at regional meetings, felt that in Ms. Friesen: This is just toclarifY that no names will be a boom economy it would give too much power to called after midnight. teachers, and for verydiffering reasons. 646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Infact, for diametrically opposed reasons, both parties clarification, basically, to Section 32 where it is in terms have come to the conclusion that they would like to see of the date in which everything comes into being. the word "primarily" removed and the items, inability to Teacherswere concernedthat the board's obligation to act pay listed simply as a list of factors. We have no fairly be made very, very clear that it would come into problem doing that. I will be bringing forward an being at the same time as the act, and that will be amendment. I understand teachers would prefer not to reworkedto reflect that Legal counsel has the indication have an ability-to-pay clause but, if w(: have one, this is of the concern and that will be addressed. the wording they had requested in writing to me. Trustees have now asked for the identi

That would be one amendment, and we will be Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister presenting the wording. Legal counsel is aware of our could tablethe amendments that she has. It takes a while request for this amendment. for Hansardto catch up with committee hearings, I think it wouldbe usefulfor us to see them in writing as soon as The second one, again, is one that both trustees and they are available. teachers have indicated a similar requ1:st on, and again becauseit is comingfrom both groups and since what we Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I will be pleased to do are tryingto achievehere is something a1;ceptable to both that. I cannot do that right now, but I will provide them groups, again we are pleased to comply with these to the members as we continue on through the course of requests for rewording on Clause 110(1.1), which the hearings. I will ensure that you get them prior to the currentlyindicates that bargaining is to begin on April 1. debate on the amendments. Teachers had indicated that their objection to that clause, and trustees, again, at the regional meetings after * (1820) consultation with member boards had also approached me to indicate thatthere are a large number of boards that Mr. Chairperson: Thefirst presenter then will be Betty would also like the flexibility to begin prior to April l. Green, president, Manitoba Association of School So we are bringing forward an amendment that says Trustees Betty Green please come forward. You have wherethere ismutual agreement, boards and teachers can a supporting cast, Ms. Green. Did you want to identify begin earlier than April l; where there is no mutual them? agreement, then the April l will kick in. This should allow for local flexibility since give111 the number of Ms. Betty Green (Manitoba Association of School boards that would like to start earlier than April l , there Trustees): Yes, I would. I have with me this evening should be many instances where they could come to Betty Ann Watts, vice-president of the Manitoba mutual agreement. That, of course, is always our first Association of School Trustees, as well as our past preference. president, Carolyn Duhamel. The third amendment we are bringing forward is a small amendment requested by teac:hers. It is a Mr. Chairperson: You may begin your presentation. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 647

Ms. Green: Prior to beginning, may I ask for permission stancetaken by theassociation. Where appropriate, these to extend the time that it will require to make this policieshave been forwarded annually to theMinister of presentationwith the reasoning that we are presenting on Education and Training and other ministers where behalf of the 56 school boardsin the province? appropriatefor consideration and possible action. These policy positions were also contained in MAST's brief to Mr. Chairperson: That permission has not been the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation grantedwith the initialdec ision. Now a request has been Review Committee this spring. We are pleased to see made for leave for more time. What is the will of the that some of the changes proposed in Bill 72 and other committee? Can I suggest this, rather than debating this legislationbefore the Legislature reflect the concerns that now, perhapsyou canproceed and then if you need more the association has recently brought before the minister. time maybe they will be prepared to consider it at that time, and in making your presentation you can make the Inlight of theextent of thechanges proposed in Bill 72 requestthat yourentire brief be put into Hansard without andother legislation, MAST augmentedits formal policy any variation. Ifyou would like to make that request positionsby holding a series of special regional meetings now, then that could be dealt with and you would have on proposed legislative change this September. Six the knowledgeand comfort that it is going to be put into meetings were held across the province in the ftrst two the record as is. weeksof September. More than 200 trusteesand senior school board administrators attended these meetings, Ms. Green: Yes, I would certainly put that request representingall but twoof MAST's member boards. The forward. proceedings of these meetings give direction to much of what follows. Mr. Chairperson: Is the committee in agreement with that request? The first section that we will refer to is the process of collective bargaining. Bill 72would amend thecollective Some Honourable Members: Agreed. bargaining process as it applies to school boards and teacher associations. The two groups would be able to Mr. Chairperson: So agreed. That will then be done. jointly request that the Minister of Education and You may begin your presentation, Ms. Green. Training appoint either a conciliator or a mediator­ arbitratorto assist them in their negotiations. Sixtydays Ms. Green: The Manitoba Association of School after the notice to begin collective bargaining has been Trusteeswelcomes the opportunity to present to the Law given, either group may ask the minister to appoint a AmendmentsReview Committee its views on changes to mediator-arbitrator. Sections 8, 9, 21, and 23 of·Bill 72 the collective bargaining provisions of The Public outline the provisions of the conciliation, mediation and Schools Act, as proposed in Bill 72. In recent years, arbitrationprocesses. school trusteeshave pursued with governmenta number of fundamental changes to the process of collective Trusteesgenerally su pportthe proposed changes to the bargaining between school boards and teacher collective bargaining process. Several of these changes assoc1at10ns. From the trustees' perspective, the are supportedby resolutionspassed by schooltrustees in cornerstone of the collective bargaining process is the recent years. Although mediation has not been continuation of bargaining at the local level. MAST considered by a MAST convention, most schoolboards welcomes the legislative direction which reaffirms the would seemto view its inclusion as an improvement to importance of collective bargaining between school the collective bargaining process. boards and teachers at the school division or school districtlevel. Schoolboards do, however, have some concerns about the changes tothe collective bargaining process outlined. MAST's positions on Bill 72 have been shaped One of the most widely spread is the off-loading of the primarily through two processes. As always, the conciliation costs to school boards and teacher association's policies, as determined by resolutions at its associations and the divergence between The Public annual convention, are a critical determinant of any Schools Actand TheLabour Relations Act in this regard. 648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October28, 1996

At present, the government pays the cost of a conciliator The Collective Agreement Board should establish in theschool cher board/tea association negotiations, as it procedures for the maintenance of such a list. does in negotiations conducted under The Labour Relations Act. Amendments contained in Section 9 of The Chief Justice of the Province of Manitoba should Bill 72 would seethese costs divided bc�tween the school select arbitrators and mediators using the Collective board and the teacher association. We believe that the Agreement Board list as well as other names that the government should either continue to pay this cost Chief Justice may choose. directly or provide categorical funding to enable school boards to do so. * (1830)

In asimilar vein, weare concerned about discrepancies Ms. Carolyn Duhamel (Manitoba Association of between the mediation provisions of The Labour School Trustees): The next section deals with the Relations Act and thoseproposed for Thte Public Schools ability to pay and requirement for fmancial information. Act. At present, mediation under The lLabour Relations Act is paid for by the government. Ifchanges proposed Schoolboards supportthe inclusion of ability to pay as under Bill 26, TheLabour Relatioos Amendment Act, are a consideration in an arbitrator's decision and, in fact, implemented, the governmentwill stillpay one-third of asked for this inclusion in a convention resolution in the cost of Labour Relations Act mediations. The 1996. MAST requested consideration for ability to pay proposedadd ition to The Public Schools Act would have because school boards believed that arbitration boards school boards and teacherassociations splitting the cost assign more weight to other bargained settlements, in of mediation. other words, comparability, than they did to a school board's ability to pay. We believe that the only fair and reasonable approach is that the provision of the two acts be parallel in this School boards also recognize that the implementation regard. Our preference would be that the status quo of of a concept such as ability to pay poses some practical the current Labour Relations Act be maintained and that problems. Specific issues that will require further these provisions be extended to mediation under The discussion and clarification include whether or not or Public Schools Act Ata minimum, we would ask that if how much of a school division's surplus will be taken the mediationprovisions of The Labour Relations Act be into account when determining ability to pay and the amended so that the government pays one-third of the relationship between ability to pay and increasing local associated costs under that act, these same provisions be taxes; i.e., the willingness-to-pay argument. extended to mediation under The Public Schools Act. School boards are also concerned that this legislative School boards are also concernedabout the proposed amendment not be interpreted so as to give arbitrators method of appointing the mediator/arbitrator. We are authorityover programming decisions. A situation could concerned that the list envisioned in Section 9 would be arise whereby an arbitrator decides that a school board unduly restrictive. We also believe that the Chief Justice would have an increased ability to pay if that board were rather than the Minister of Labour is the appropriate to reduce or modifY program offerings to students. No individual to select the mediator/arbitrator. arbitrator in our view should have the ability to compel a school board to change its educational program or In summary, with the exception of the items noted in support services. We aresee king a commitment from the the remainder of our presentation, MAST supports the government thatauthority over educational progra.nuning proposed changes to the collective bargaining process will remain with the elected school board. found in The Public Schools Act as outlined in Bill 72. Conciliation and mediation services should be made Many school boards have also expressed the concern available for negotiations between school boards and that the implementation of this concept will lead to teacherassoci ations at no cost to the parties involved. A increased inequities in public schools throughout the mutually agreed upon list of mediator/wrbitrators should province unless efforts are made by the province to be established through the Collective Agreement Board. equalize ability to pay. We would urge the government October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 649

to implement ability to pay concurrently with renewed Society. Thank you. You may proceed. We will allow efforts to increase equalization support for school you time, then, to go through your presentation. divisions and districts throughout the province. Ron. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Most school boards would agree that for ability to pay Services): Just for clarificationif I could, Mr. Chairman. to be a consideration in arbitration awards, teacher That was leave for the presenters, not a departing from associations need to have access to relevant fmancial the previous agreed upon time for questions. Is that information. In fact, many school divisions already correct? provide such information. However, we do have concerns about how relevant financial information may Mr. Chairperson: The time for questions, and what my bedefined, and in particular school boards are concerned suggestion was that the question and answer would be that this not be interpreted to include the budget line for five minutes, the presentation would take whatever time projected salary increases. The potential for confusion it takes to complete the presentation of this brief. and conflict in this regard could be alleviated if the legislation were amended to indicate precisely what Ms. Duhamel: Just to summarize on the issue then of financial information boards are required to provide. ability to pay, we are suggesting that the wording be MAST is suggesting that Sections 110.2(1) and (2) amended so as to delete the phrase "relevant financial should be amended so as to delete the phrase relevant information" and substitute instead "audited financial financial information. statements and most recent approved budget."

Mr. Chairperson: I must interject now, because the 10 With regard to the wording of the clause on ability to minutes has expired, and now is the appropriate time to pay and the amendment that has been announced this discuss, without encroaching further on your time, how evening by the minister, we both appreciate and support we will proceed. the intention to remove the word "primarily," and while there is some suggested wording here, I will not read it PerhapsI could offer a suggestion for consideration of all at this time. We would simply support any wording the committee. Given you or the Manitoba Association which reflects flexibility in terms of a consideration of the of School Trustees and your counterpart for the teachers variousfactors which contribute to or influence ability to is the Manitoba Teachers' Society, which is item 21 on pay. the list, and because the commitment has already been made to not have anyone exceed 10 minutes in Matters not referred to arbitrationand the obligation to presentation, five minutes for question and answer, and act fairly, Sections 15 and 22. Manitoba school boards the desire I am sure of everybody here to be at least generally support the list of matters not referred to balanced, would that be a possible solution to allow a arbitration contained in Section 15 of Bill 72; however, certain time to make your complete presentation and have serious concerns have been expressed about the way in the five minute question and answer after your complete whichthe obligation to act fairly, described in Section 22 presentation, and then have the same opportunity of the proposed legislation, could affect the policies and extended to the Teachers' Society? decision making of school boards. The obligation for schoolboards to act fairly and the legislative recourse in Ron. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Two theevent theyfail tocomply, new PSA Sections 131.4(1) groups only? and 131.4(2), are linked with matters not referrable for arbitration, new PSA Section 126(2). While school Mr. Chairperson: Yes, that is my suggestion. boards do not oppose a fairness test, these sections of proposedlegislation, readtogether, expose school boards Floor Comment: We think that would be appropriate. to literally thousands of individual grievances. These amendments make school board practices and policy Mr. Chairperson: Leave is granted on that basis then grievable underthe collective agree-nt. Grievances not for you, and that will be extended also to the Teachers' settled locally will be referred to a grievance arbitration 650 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

board, and no process is proposed within which the should continue to have flexibility to negotiate the term arbitrator will decide thegrievance. of collective agreements.

Thiswould be a verydiff erent process thanthe fairness * (1840) test describedin Section80 of The LaboJUr Relations Act. In that act, the process is clearly d':fmed. Specific There are benefits to various models. A July 1 collective agreement wording forms the basis upon which effective date would bring collective agreements in line an arbitrator settles the grievance. The parties then take with the school board's fiscal year. The budget year the arbitrators' decision into consideration in ensuing would correspond to the term of the agreement as is collectivebargaining and clarify or modify the collective contemplated in the proposed legislation. The existing agreement wording. January 1 date is thebest fit for scheduling of negotiation meetings. A September I date is the start of a teacher's Bill 72 proposes that arbitration boards review a work year for divisions which pay teachers' salaries on a school board's practice or administration of board policy 12-month basis. The July and August payments are for to determine whether it is fair and reasonable. work performed in the previous I 0-month school year. Arbitrator's decisions could become intrusive in the school board's setting of policy. School boards do not Othersections of thisle gislation support local decision accept theproposition that significant issues such as class making, based on the unique circumstances of the size, teacher evaluation and staffmg decisions could be division or district. The term of agreement should decided by an arbitrator. The proposed Section 131. 4(2) continue to be determined locally between the school would allow an arbitrator to usurp the right of an elected board and the teacher association. school board to decide these matters. Transition sections 33 and 34 would provide for a In those few divisions with coiiC4;tive agreement collective agreement of less thanone year. Iflegislation wordingcovering items containedin Se�;tion 126(2), we proceeds to mandate a common expiry date for all have further concerns that a teache:r could access agreements and that date is other than December 31, grievance arbitrationboth Wlder the legislation and based MAST proposes that any transition agreement should be upon specific collective agreement provisions. at least 12 monthsduration, in plus the number of months to the new expiry date. For example, ifthere were to be In summary, MAST supports the list of matters not a June 30 expiry date, the transition agreement would be referable for arbitration contained in Se:ction 15 of Bill for 18 months. As collective bargaining consumes 72. MAST supportsthe obligation to act fairly contained considerable amounts of time and energy, it seems in Section 22 of Bill 72. MAST is opposed to the reasonablethat the transition should be accomplished by provisionsof the subsection failure to comply, contained a longer rather than a shorter term of agreement. in Section 22 of Bill 72. MAST supports, instead, replacing the proposed PSA Section 131.4(2) with the In summary, MAST believes the current Public same wording as is currently contained in Section 80 of Schools Actprovisions allowing school boards and local The Labour Relations Act. associations tonegotiate the term of collective agreement and notice provisions should be continued. Should an Ms. Betty Ann Watts (Manitoba Association of expiry date other than December 31 be legislated, School Trustees): The section I will refer to is the term transition agreements should be at least 12 months plus of collective agreement, notice provisions and transitional the number of months to the new expiry date. provisions, Sections 4, 23, 32, 33 and 34.

To begin, Madam Minister, we appreciate the On related matters, new provisions for Part 8 of The amendment on the notice provisions. However, MAST Public Schools Act regarding employee vote on school believes that there is no compelling reason for school board'sfinal offer. In 1984, MAST adopted a policy that boards to have a �on collective agreement expiry prior to arbitration, the positions of the school board date, and that school boards and teacher associations should go before its teachers for a vote of acceptance or October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 651

rejection. Thatresolution read as follows: Be it resolved Just for therecord, I wantto get some clarification from that MAST urge the Minister of Education to have you on two items. One, for the record here, it is your legislation enacted to provide that all of the teachers opinion that the grievance provisions outlined in the act within a school division or district would have the pertaining to the fairnessclause would give teachers the opportunity to vote upon whether to accept or reject a rightto grieve things like class size even if it were not in school board's offer prior to the application for a collective agreement, and double jeopardy, that they arbitration; and, be it further resolvedthat MAST urge would also, ifit wasin the agreement, get to grieve it not the Minister of Education to have legislation enacted to only under the collective agreement for those few that provide thatthe schoolboard vote upon whether to accept contain it but also to an arbitrator. Is that your main or rejectthe teacher'sproposal prior to the application for concernwith that? arbitration. Ms. Duhamel: Ourconcern is that schoolboards-that A proposed change contained in Section 72 of Bill 26, there is the potential here for a large number of The Labour Relations Amendment Act, contains a grievances on many issues that fall outside of collective provision that would mandate a process such as the one agreements and arerather issues of school board practice envisioned here. There is no similar clause in Bill 72. or school board policy.

Insummary, MAST proposes that The Public Schools The difficultywith submi tting those to an arbitrator for Act be amended so as to include a process to allow a grievance processis that there are no parameters within employeesto vote on an employer's finaloffer, similar to which to examine the issue and within which the the amendments proposed for Section 72 of The Labour arbitrator must frame his or her response. So we have Relations Amendment Act. concerns there about an open-ended kind of process, where we could be bombarded with one grievance after another on issues that are not part of the collective Ms. Green: Withinour presentation, we have also made agreement. We think it would be in the best interest of some comments on Bill 57. Those are for your con­ teachers and school boards to find some other way of sideration. We have no formal presentation on Bill 57. dealing withsome of those things, because it can tie up a tremendous amountof time and energy and resourCes in In conclusion, on behalf of the Manitoba Association that kind of a process. of School Trustees, thank you once again for the opportunity to convey to you the views and concerns of Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I have three Manitoba public school trustees regarding proposed fairly short questions. I know my colleagues other amendmentsto ThePublic Schools Act contained in Bill and members would like to ask you some questions. 72. These amendments have the potential to impact significantly on public education in our province. We Can you tell me when MAST became dissatisfied with trust that you will give due consideration to the the way the presently existing negotiation methods have suggestions we have offered in our presentation. We existed? I understandthat they have been in existence for trustalso that you will accept them in the spirit in which approximately 40 years, and perhaps you can elaborate they have been offered with an eye to improving when raisedthese issues and perhaps enlighten us education for the more than 195,000 young people MAST as to why these issues are comingforward at thistime. enrolled in Manitoba public schools.

Ms. Green: We have been bringing these issues to the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for that government's attention for quite some time now. presentation which, for the record, took21 minutes and Certainly,in the last 10 years, there have been resolutions 20 seconds, and we will now proceed with questions. beingbrought forward to annual conventions expressing The honourable minister firstand then Ms. Mihychuk. these kinds of concerns.

Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you, MAST, for your Ms. Friesen: I want to thankyou for your presentation presentationand for your support of the bill in the main. andfor the proposals thatyou have made, but I also want 652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

to ask you about what the implications have been for the elected school board as opposed to an arbitrator who Manitoba Association of School Trustees as of the last does not have to make the thing work. six months of debate over this particular bill. This bill doesnot come outof theblue. It comes out of the context Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Ms. Duhamel. Thank you of the minister's discussions of teachers' salaries, of committee members. 1bank you presenters. proposalsfor referendumson teachers' salaries, proposals for lower starting wages for teachers, the whole Render­ The next presenter is Rob Hilliard, President, Dyck proposals, and the hearings that were held then. I Manitoba Federation of Labour. Please come forward. wondered ifyou could give us some !;ense of what the impact of these last six months has been on the An Honourable Member: Out of town. relationships between you and yow employees, the teachers, in particular. Mr. Chairperson: Oh, I am sony,out of town. Howard Friesen, Garden Valley School Division No. 26. My Ms. Green: Certainly the discussions as of the last six apologies. You may begin your presentation, Mr. months ·have caused some strain within teacher Friesen. associations and school boards. Anytime there is significant change to a process that has been utilized for * (1850) sometime , that can be expected. What we want to do is ensure that the end result is one that will mean a better Mr. Howard Friesen(Garden Val'ey School Division system for all involved and, most importantly, for the No. 26): 1bank you, Mr. Chairman, Madam Minister childlen in our schools. and committee members. I will take this opportunity to thank you for the opportunity to present on behalf of the Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Mihychuk, you have a minute. Garden Valley School Division Trustees.

Ms. Mihychuk: Would yousay that the: settlements that I certainlyrecognize that the issues surroundingBill 72 you have negotiated using the present system have been and the teacher collective bargaining are complex ones exorbitant compared to other wage settlements and and sensitiveooes butfeel that they need to be addressed. various other workers' units? Changein theeconomy and the workplace, we feel, have necessitatedchanges in the collective bargaining process. Ms. Green: I think our main concem is that we have We do support bargaining procedures that are fair, seen an increase in the occurrence of arbitrated reasonable and just and will provide high-quality settlements, and school boards and teachers would be education at an affordable price. Our board of trustees well-served by having more of the collective agreements and ourteachers oppose strike and commend Mr. Dyck's at the local level. and Mrs. Render's report for advocating a method of bargainingthat respects and strengthens local autonomy, Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Cerilli, you have 15 seconds. sets some reasonable parameters for the process and places a high value on the uninterrupted delivery of Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarifY ifI am understanding quality education. this. You do not want to have the arbitrator make decisions that would intrude on educational programs, The itemsthat we would like to address, I will number support services. What is left? What is there that- them for you as we go along, the frrst one being: Sections 114(4) and 147, the cost-sharing of Ms. Duhamel: What we are saying here is that the remuneration and expenses of the conciliation officer. specifics of any reductions or cutbacks should be the GardenValley School Division supports the principle of schooldivision's, the school board's responsibility. Ifan bothpartners equally sharing the actual costs incurred in arbitrator is going to propose a settlement that is going to our bargaining process. With shorter time lines and, cause a dramatic shortfall, that means some verycritical hopefully, a greater urgency to settle the terms of an program priorities might have to go by the boards, then agreement, we hope that the overall costs will be we think that the balance of the decision rests with the reasonable. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 653

The second point is selection of the arbitrator or a Item 4, term of collective agreement to coincide with mediator-arbitrator: Our board has supported the the school year, our board supports that the term of the selection of a local conciliator, mediator or arbitrator. coUectiveagreem ent coincide with the existing June-July When the parties provide the minister with the name of a school year. It would be desirable that the term of the person selected by them jointly to act as arbitrator or school budget year, the collective agreement and the mediator-arbitrator, the minister shall appoint that written contract all coincide. person. In this instance the appointee could be local. Our question is, would any other criteria apply to the Item 5, with respect to ability to pay, our board appointee who is mutually agreed to? supports that the primary factors to consider in reaching an arbitration settlement are current revenues including federal, provincial and local taxes. A reasonable surplus In the instance when the minister makes the should not be considered as part of the definition of the appointment, the person selected must be on a list ability to pay. While the board recognizes that other approved by the Collective Agreement Board or the factors certainly need to be considered, the subjective Manitoba Labour Board. These lists would probably nature of the comparable employees in the public and exclude local persons, and our board is not totally private sector serve to somewhat blur the clear guidelines comfortable or in agreement with this arrangement. The given to an arbitrator. board would request that the list would include a representative fromeach region within the province. The boardof trusteesdoes support that the person selected be The last item, No. 6.: School boards to provide knowledgeable about all matters affecting a collective financial information. Our board considers the budget agreement. and relevant financial information as public information andaffirms information thatthis be made available to the The third item pertains to matters not referable to bargaining agents. The board will willingly provide arbitration but subject to a "grievance process set out in available background information. the collective agreement." Ourboard recognizesthat the matters included under Section 126(2) are management In conclusion, the Garden Valley School Division responsibilities and supports the wording of this crucial supports the spirit and intent of Bill 72. The bill clause with respect to: (a) the selection, appointment, delineates a process that will facilitate fair and equitable assignmentand transfer ofteachers and principals; (b) the bargaining to ensure that the primary purpose of our method of evaluating the performance of teachers and school division focuses on providing quality instruction principals; (c) the class sizes in schools; and (d) the for all of our students. scheduling of recesses and midday break.

We are willing to enter into more specific detailed The board also supports that these matters should be discussion at your request, and we hope that there will a dealt with "reasonably, fairly and in good faith." The long-term effect on provincial and local bargaining. board, however, does disagree with Section 13 1.4{2) which delegatesthe resolution of any dispute or grievance Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Friesen. to the settlement of differences as provided for in that coUective agreement. The outlined grievance process in Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you, Mr. Friesen, for your our collective agreement is in fact an arbitration process presentation. Just as an aside, before my question, and and negates the intent of Section 126(2). thatis that ifyou locally have a person that you are both happy with, that person canbe appointed and put on the Garden Valley would support that any employee have list. the rightto an appeal of an administrative decision made with respect to Section 126(2). The full board of trustees The question I wanted to ask: You indicated in 3 that would conduct a hearing to review the decision in terms the items not referable to arbitration by virtue of the laid out under this section. All decisions made by a fairness and grievanceprocedure that we have laid out, in school board canultimately be appealed to the minister. fact, allows teachers to take an arbitration, take them to 654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 arbitrationand negates the statement that they cannot be Are you concerned about the actions in recent months arbitrated. with this legislation souring relations between yourself and the staff? I wonder ifyou would be good enough to just expand that a little bit, fo r our information. Mr. Friesen: Well, I think any time you have change, there is going to be some anxiety somewhere in the Mr. Friesen: Ourcollective agreemenlt has a provision system, although I thinkall-certainly that in our division, for the contesting of any items in the collective there is clear thinking on both sides and not a move to agreement, and that decision-making process is an panic. I think there is good reason fo r some of the intent arbitration I, so any items where teachers feel that we of the bill and I think that some ofthat is understood. have not acted in good fa ith, even though they are under these items, would still be referred to alfbitration under Ms. Mihychuk: WeU, thereare many goodintentions in our collective agreement. the school system. I know many teachers give up many hours of time to provide extra services, and that is Mrs. Mcintosh: I am not quite sure- particularlytrue in rural Manitoba where they often lead the Scoutsor the Girl Guides as well as the teams and are Mr. Chairperson: Do you need a clarification? involved with the concerts. Have you seen any pulling back of that type of volunteerism by teachers in your Mrs. Mcintosh: So what you are saying is, you have community, or is thata concern of your boards? thisyour in: collective agreement so teacherscan already grieveit, butif you did not have it, they could stillgrieve Mr. Friesen: I have not seen a decline in the numberof it, too? Is that-okay, thankyou. extracurricularactivities in our school division, not to say that there is not some concern over some of the changes Ms. Friesen: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. being talked about. Certainly there is still a good spirit Friesen. I am interested in your conclusion, that your of putting in time in our school division. schooldivision, likeevery otherschool division, wants to focu s on providing quality instructionfo r students. One Ms. Mihychuk: Has the board ever, fo r curiosity, of the difficulties with this bill, and it is one that the calculatedwhat the average number of hoursa teacher did school trustees pointed out in their presentation, is that put in, and how much more that would cost your school thearbitrator may indeed be given authority to compel a division? school board to change its educational program or support services as aresult of the wording and indeed the Mr. Friesen: In actual mathematics calculation, no. intent of this bill. I wondered if your trustees in particular had discussed this and what conclusions they Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, one of my concerns about had come to. this bill is the intent appears to be to introduce differential wage rates across the province, with its * (1900) reference to local employee incomes, and I wondered if you could tell me what the average, or what kind of Mr. Friesen: Our conclusionon that would be similar reference wouJd beused in your school district. What are to the presentation made by MAST, that the ability or the average incomes of people in your district, do your thatthe arbitrationdecision not be of such magnitude as know? to effectively create situations fo r schoolboards to have to alter their programming significcmtly. Those Mr. Friesen: The exact numbers I could not quote fo r responsibilities should rest with school boards. you, but I certainlyknow that wage earners in our area are less than they certainly would be in the city of Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you fo r your presentation. Winnipeg. Whether that creates inequity in this system, understand that you represent a rural school division. I think rural Manitobans already live with the reality of Good relations between the teachers and the board have inequity in manyother areas andknow thatthat is just the generally beenthe norm in a lot of our sc.hool divisions. way it sometimes is. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 655

Ms. Friesen: Do you agree then with the intent of the Mr. Cordell Barker (Pine Creek Teachers' bill to introduce inequities into teacher salaries across the Association): I would like to start by thanking you fo r province? You say the city ofWinnipeg, but the city of this opportunity to appear before this committee and to Winnipeg of course has many variations. The average raise concerns onbehalf ofthe 93 teachers in Pine Creek. income in my riding, fo r example, is $19,000. The Pine Creek, fo r those who are not aware, is a rural average income in the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) riding or division. We are centred on Austin, MacGregor, the member for Springfield's (Mr. Findlay) riding is over Gladstone, Plumas, Langruth. We are rural fo lk. We $50,000. I do not know what it would be in your area, knowa duck when we seea due� we know a goose when which is why I asked, but those seem to me to be quite we see a goose; and we do not like what we see here, to large differentials, and the intent of this bill is to be polite but to be blunt. introduce differentials. Is that something that you can support? The teachers in Pine Creek have endorsed this brief that you are receiving. They have endorsed it unanimously. Mr. Friesen: I do not think that this bill is going to It was discussed at a general meeting, and every single result in large inequities. I think that rural Manitoba will teacherspoke there against Bill 72. The message that the always need to address salaries in terms of being teachers in Pine Creekwant me to bring to you is that this competitive enough to attract teache rs. I think there are bill is unfair, this bill is unbalanced, this bill needs to be also many opportunities, affordable opportunities, in scrapped, it needs to be deep-sixed, it needs to be filed rural Manitoba that I would personally not be able to under W, and the government should go back to square afford in Winnipeg, and I think that sometimes needs to one and start over again. be reflected in earning ability as well, because not only do I perhaps earn less but I also can afford many other I am not going to read the brief. Everyone here can things that cost me less in rural Manitoba. read because they had a teacher who helped them learn. I am going to talk on two ideas that are kind of outlined in the brief, but I have to adjust it because the minister Mrs. Mcintosh: Oh, thank you very much. I did not announced thatthere are threema jor changes, three major think I would get back to ask my other question. Picking amendments to this bill. up on the question that was just asked, it is my understanding that at the public hearings both teachers I wassitting herelistening to MAST, and, as they were and trustees asked fo r local bargaining, not provincial going through their brief, I see they want at least eight bargaining. Local bargaininghas always been in place in changes to the bill. So here we are. The House is going Manitoba, thatwas reaffirmed. With local bargaining of to end its session on November 7 and the minister at the course we have always had historically a differential of last minute is introducing amendments. MAST, who as some fe w thousand dollars, rurally and in the urban you can tell likes this bill, still wants aid. I think it is setting. Is it also your understanding that what your time to rethink this, to re-look at it and to maybe re­ division was asking fo r was a reconfirmation that local examine it. bargaining should continue as opposed to provincial bargaining? Is it unfair and unbalanced? Well, I would be willing to say thatschool the divisions that are going to standup Mr. Friesen: We have affirmed that local bargaining is hereand the trustees that are going to stand up here may what our division is asking fo r. I think that is consistent want some changes, but they will support it. The with the MAST recommendations over the years. teachers groups that stand up here are going to speak against it. That should send a clear message that this is Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much fo r your not a fa ir, balanced bill. presentation, Mr. Friesen. This bill will do nothing fo r relationships between The next presenter is Cordell Barker, Pine Creek teachers and trustees. All it will lead to is long-term Teachers' Association. You may begin your presentation, teacher-trustee antagonism. There are things in this bill Mr. Barker. that are just not fa ir in a free, democratic society. 656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

* (1910) why it is unfair ; that is why it is unbalanced; and that is why you should scrap it and go back to square one. It I guess two of them are open-scope: bargaining, the will do nothing fo r education. It will do nothing fo r right to bargain all terms and conditions: of employment. teachers or trustees, and although the trustees are Teachers had that prior to 1956 when they were covered enamoured by it because they are achieving a couple of underThe Labour Relations Act. They gave that up back their goals, I think that they will not be happy with the then; over 40 years ago they gave that back up. Now the outcome. government wants to take away some of those rights and freedoms to negotiate all terms and conditions of employ­ I would just liketo close by referring to my last page in ment. the brief, becausethis issomething that kind of upsets the teachers in Pine Creek quite a bit. That is the concept Would teachers today, given that c:hoice, with the that has been referred to the odd time that there are protections under TheLabour Relations Act, give up that teachers and that there are real teachers, and that the real right for this bill? Anybody that thinks that teachers teachers are the ones who work in the classrooms, and would do -that, come out to Pine Creek, visit the teachers then there are the labour leaders, the ones who are off in their· rooms, ask them one on one, and they will give leading the rest of us down some alley looking fo r you a clear message. They would not do that. trouble. Well, the teachers in Pine Creek would like everybody to know that the people whom they elect at I am looking at the amendment fo r the ability to pay, their local executive and the people whom they elect at and it is kindof difficult to speak to it because I have not their annual general meeting are their real leaders, that got a copy of it here, but I see that MAST, in their these people speak fo r them and they speak the message presentation, made a suggestion. I wonder ifthat is the that the teachers want spoken. Ifyou do not want to minister's one. But ifit is, I still look at it, and it still listen tothe message, thatyour is choice, but the message talks about ability to pay in the main paragraph with a should be clear and it represents what teachers think. subcategory (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e). It still uses the Again, I would like to close by thanking you fo r this terminology, current revenues. opportunity to bring the concerns of the 93 teachers in Pine Creek. The concept of ability to pay is not a fa ir concept. There are many, many fa ctors that should be considered Mr. Chairperson: Thankyou very much. Ms. Friesen when teachers' salaries are being detennined. But the and the honourable minister. ability to pay, tied into current revenue, basically, ifit were fo llowed, would mean that a school board should Ms. Friesen: Thankyou fo r your presentation. One of approach Manitoba Hydro and say, I know you are the issues I think that is driving this legislation is the charging this much for electricity but we (Jinly raised taxes removal of over $43 million from the public school by this much, so our ability to pay fo r hydro is only this system. I wondered if you could tell us what the much and that is all you are getting. implications of that have been fo r your school division and from the perspective of the classroom. Mr. Chairperson: I have already made the admonition at the beginning, and I can assure you that the time you Mr. Barker: Very briefly, over the last fe w years the are spending applauding is eating into the time of the $43 million directly led to our board eliminating presentation and so is my interjection at this point. programs last year. Home Ec was reduced entirely throughoutthe school system There is no more Home Ec Mr. Barker: I could go on about that, but, again, I in Pine Creek. Industrial Arts was eliminated in the would say that ifyou askteachers today, in the year 1996, junior high. We had elimination of 4.2 teachers in our if they had the rights and protections that they had under division. lbat means that because of these eliminations, The Labour Relations Act back in 1948, '49, '50, '5 1, everybody is teaching slightly larger classes and has less '52, '53, '54, '55 and that they gave up because there was preparation time. Teachers in Pine Creek on average a mutual agreement between three parties, would they go have fo ur periods, a six-day cycle, to do preparation into this kind of a bill, and teachers will say no. That is work . They are doing the rest of their work, as teachers October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 657

always have done, at home in the evenings, on weekends. Can you tell me why you fe el that it is wrong fo r My best estimate from talking to people that I know is trustees to ask to have their arguments on ability to pay that they are spending about 55 to 60 hours every single considered, not necessarily accepted, but at least week doing that, because you cannot walk into a class, considered by an arbitrator? Why is it wrong fo r trustees regardless of what it is, without being prepared and we to wish to have their ability to pay considered before an have to evaluate them. We do evaluate students. We arbitrator? have to prepare quizzes, we have to prepare tests, we have to mark those, and the boards do not give us any Mr. Barker: Is this mike on? Just before I answer that time to do that. question, I am speaking fo r the teachers of Pine Creek, not fo r the provincial executive, and if they actually But, while you are asking that, I think what has support that, they should have to explain that in some genemted a lot of this is that teachers have in the last fe w detail. Ifit is that you have to have some wording and so years been standing up fo r a fe w rights, and the boards you take the lesser of two evils, I guess that might be are getting a little concerned about it. I think, fo r their position. Thatis like giving a condemned man three example, a duty-free lunch, after many, many years of choices of how he would like to leave this earth. working through lunch period, teachers finally realized that they were people and they should have a lunch hour Mrs. Mcintosh: I would like an answer to my question. too,you know, 40 or 50 to an hour, where they could sit Why is it wrong for a school board to ask to have its and have something to eat and relax and unstress and, ability to pay at least considered, not necessarily gee, you know, thatwas asking fo r the world. The whole accepted, but at least considered by an arbitrator? school system was going to fa ll apart because teachers wanted a duty-free lunch period. So trustees have to go Mr. Barker: I thinkit is. I have a long-time experience to the minister and they have to say, gee, the teachers are in Pine Creek of perhaps being fa irly active. In 1971 gettingunreas onable. What they want is going to destroy when I went to Pine Creek fa rmers were going through a our school system. really difficulttime. Crops had been not very good and actually Pine Creek settled fo r something very less than Well, I am sorry. I am a human being and I like lunch what the going rate was and was highly criticized for it. and I thinkmost teachers do, and is that going to destroy our school system? Well, I do not think so. If our It wasa factor that was taken into consideration at the trustees cannot manage that, I am sure there are trustees that could. time. It is a fa ctor thatis always taken into consideration. When teachers and trustees are sitting do� and negotiating, they are each presenting argume�ts about Mrs. Mcintosh: Just a bit of a correction to an why something should take place. they go to an implication in the opposition critic's statement. This If arbitration, the trustees make theircase. They bring up issue was a big issue of concern for trustees beginning the pointsthey want, the teachers do the same, and three back in 1984, so it certainly did not arise with the 2 percent reduction that was experienced in school arbitrators listen to those arguments presented by both sides and weigh them. They weigh the arguments of the divisions. It has beenan issue for about 12 years, a large issue discussed at convention of that magnitude. trustees against the arguments of the teachers, and I think that system works well, because there should be weight What I wanted to ask, we have been told and I have it given to all those arguments. here in writing from the society that while teachers do not wish to see a clause on ability to pay that if there had to They should all be considered, but I do not think there be one, the wording that is now being proposed is the is a priority that should be fo llowed year after year. I wording that teachers could accept in a clause if it were think it is up to the arbitrators to listen to 12 arguments to be in the act, so I think your criticism of the wording and decide how to assess the weight to those individual maybe does notfit with what your executive has told me, 12 arguments, and boards have always argued that they although your position on not having ability to pay cannot afford it, that the tax base is lower or whatever, certainly does fit. and I think that is just one of the factors. 658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

* (1920) service that somehow this will serve our kids. Well, we have todo mae thanpay lip service because we live with Mr. Chairperson: Ms. McGifford, quickly. these kids, and we have come here just to wonder out loud, how did the government of Manitoba get so far Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): ·Thank you, Mr. removed from the real world of education and the Barker,for your presentation. We notice that you did say desperate needs of our kids? thatyou were endorsed by all 98 teachers in Pine Creek, so congratulations on your unanimousapprov al. Ms. Martin: In my world the needsof our kids demand that I am not simply a disseminator of content designed Whenthe minister spoke on this bill in the House, she to program a student to meet standard X. I am a said it was a victory fo r teachers. I think she said this counsellor, fa cilitator, nurse, physiotherapist, dietitian, mainly because she is very proud of the "failure to fundraiser, inventor, social worker, security guard, comply," Clause 131.4(2). I wonder ifyou know of any probation enforcer, behaviourist, psychologist, coach, teachers who fee l victorious, because I know I do not. tutor, parent. And you thought I was just a teacher.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Barker, quickly. Mr. Chairperson: That was Lisa Martin. Maybe before you speak you could identifY yourself? Mr. Barker: Just to clarifYone thing. At the general meeting, we had 51 of the 93 teachers out. Several of Ms. Martin: We are just going to be switching back them . were in volleyball games. There were three sets and fo rth. going on in the high school and a number of activities, but the 51 teachers that were at the general meeting Mr. Chairperson: Okay. We will just call it the duo unanimously passed this. I think that a very strong without attribution then to one or the other. indication of that is all 93. Ms. Thomson: I brought you some of the individuals that are in my world so that you can meet them. Last The other one, the short answer is no, I do not know spring, two 12-year-<>ldboys came to a school dance with any teacher that would agree with that either. razor blades taped to their arms and they usedthem.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your Ms. Martin: A Senior I girl, so filled with hurt and presentation, Mr. Barker. anguish,conunitted suicide leaving our students and staff reeling. Some were so affected that there were other . Lisa Martin, please. Ms. Martin, you may begin your attempts and many, many threats of suicide even to this presentation. Is it going to be a duet? Maybe you could day. identifY yourselves. It looks like there is a duo. Ms. Thomson: One young man'sbrain was so addled by Ms. Val Thomson (Private Citizen): I am Val his drug and alcohol addiction that he burnt his fa ther's Thomson. I teach in Birds Hill River Sc:hool Division. house to the ground and then, armed with a rifle, he barricaded himself and his girlfriend into a house. He Mr. Chairperson: Welcome. You may begin your was taken to a treatment centre, he escaped, and then presentation. You are Lisa Martin? called the school and some teachers with whom he was close to give him a ride home. We waited a day and a Ms. Lisa Martin (Private Citizen): I am. half to see if he would appear on our doorstep with a gun, becausehe was looking fo r his girlfriendwithin our Mr. Chairperson: Okay, who is starting. Okay, Val school. Thomson. This summer there was a Canada-wide search fo r this Ms. Thomson: Well, we have heard a lot about Bill 72, student after the murder of a 14-year old girl in a and I am sure we will hear more tonight .and also the lip neighbouring community. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659

Ms. Martin: A young women pummelled her school his three breaches of probation and his new assault counsellor, shouted obscenities at her because her mother charges if he is in school. This young adult registers in had beencalled to discuss concerns about her aggressive a Senior 2 with 16-year-olds. We have no adult behaviour. education program in the vicinity but we must teach him nonetheless. Ms. Thomson: One student is eight grade levels behind in mathematics, andI wonder which standard he is going Ms. Martin: Would you like toteach in my world where to be tested to? poverty, violence, abuse and neglect damage my kids? When is this government going to say, as Lyndon Ms. Martin: A student said tome the other day: I know Johnson did, that poverty will no longer be a bar to I am only 16, but I am really looking forward to getting learning,and learning shall offer an escape from poverty. married and having this baby. We can be a family. This family will include a hard-drinking, controlling husband, a young wife whose medical and emotional trauma early Ms. Thomson: So what qualifies a person to meet all in life has caused her to believe in fairy tales. these needs, and the others? We need the best, the brightest and the most innovative people to enter Ms. Thomson: Another student with attention deficit education. How can we convince such people to enter a disorder with hyperactivity, has runout of the medication lifetime career in education if they face continual he has been prescribed to control his behaviour. government cutbacks, unilateral wage determination by Everything that comes near him he has to fight, his management, deteriomting working conditions, increased teachers, students, his locker. stress and the concomitant increase in sickness?

Ms. Martin: A girl, exceptionally bright and artistic, Ms. Martin: Teachers have fought hard for the current stares into space and wanders aimlessly. Eventually she system of collective bargaining, evaluation and stops and cries and cries, unable to say why. professional development, which doesnot come close to valuing public educators the way a civilized society Ms. Thomson: Last Thursday a student said: I have to should. Manitoba teachers deserve better thanthis bill, miss this afternoon. I have to take my dad somewhere. and so do our kids. I have to be nice to him so he will be nice to me. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

Ms. Martin: A middle-years student said to his teacher: Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much fo r your If you kick me out, I will go home and I will come back presentation and for the anecdotal informationyou have with a gun and I will shoot you. The next day I found a brought forward. It thinkit is important information, I bullet on my desk. thinkit is realinf ormation and I appreciate, I believe that you brought it forward because you thinkwe do not know Ms. Thomson: While a principal was downtown, two these things. I just wish to reassure you that I toohave adultsthreatened to shoothim because of what they saw had students who have missed a day of school because was unfairness towards a student. they could not come to school that day becausem ummy got put in jail for stabbing daddy to death, and I too have Ms. Martin: One of our kids has been beaten up twice. had students who have attempted suicide, and I toohave The last incident required the student to be hospitalized had classes of 34 with six special needs kids, that I do here in Winnipeg so he could receive appropriate know what you go through out there. treatment. This student was an exceptionally talented musician. He may never be able to reach his potential because of the extent of his injury. I have been chairman of a board when one student walked tothe school with a shotgun and literally blew the Ms. Thomson: A 22-year-old student has been advised head off another student, and we had to cope with the by his lawyer that a judge will look more favourably on effects of that in the school. I do know what it is like to 660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 take a child who hasfried his brains oult completely and Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, thank you fo r the try to get help fo r him, appropriate medical help. I presentation. It is important not only that the minister understand, and do not let anybody try to tell you that I understandthese things but that they be put on the public do not, because I do. record so that all Manitobans can understand what is happening in the classroom. I am very grateful that you I agree with your concerns about trying to keep and put that on the record in so much detail. I am struck at retain and attract those verydedicated JX:Ople we needin the appalling circumstances that you are facing on a day­ the classroom. Unlike thefears that you have been given, by-day basis, and my sense is that you seem to see them I believe that this bill gives you the right to grieve some asdete riorating. I donot know whether this would be on of these things, even if your division is not able to get it a daily basisple to suicide? Ms. Martin: Yes, please. Ms. Martin: Thank goodness, we have only had one, Mr. Chairperson: Order,please. Hold it, wait. Order, but there hasbeenmany, as we said, attempts and many, please. Please directyour remarks through the Chair, and many. threats I thinkit is an individual situation fo r kids we will get a civil dialogue going here. Honourable but certainlypoverty, I would think, would be the No. I minister, maybe you canpose your ques1tion. concern. Families are not being supported the way they used to be, and I think that that certainly affected this * (1930) student's life.

Mrs. Mcintosh: I will ask one question then. Do you Mr. Chairpenon: Thank you very much fo r your believe thatyou will havea greater right m greater ability presentations. We will now call on Henry-1 am sorry. to achieve the right to grieve class size through The out-of-town ones first. Chris Hicks, Souris Valley negotiating it in a collective agreement or having it Teachers'Associatioo. You maybegin your presentation. entrenched in The Public Schools Act? Ms. Caroline Evans (Souris Valley Teachers' Ms. Thomson: Ask it again, because I need to think Association): My nameis actually not Chris Hicks. My about it, please. name is Caroline Evans, and I will be representing the Souris Valley Teachers' Association. Mrs. Mcintosh: The question was do you believe that you have a greater abilityto negotiate the! right to grieve Mr. Chairperson: Isthere leaveof the committee given class size in a collective agreement than you would have fo r Caroline to proceed? to be given it as a gift entrenched in The Public Schools Act? An Honourable Member: Leave.

Ms. Martin: We have a grievance procedure in our Ms. Evans: Bill 72 isa pieceoflegislation that is aimed collectiveagreement thathas proven to be quite adequate. at weakening the rates of teachers and at ultimately I wouldfee l far more comfortable with it in the collective decreasing government support of the public education agreement. system. The government has done little to promote the October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661

work teachers are doing so that the public might actually government. Has our government truly considered what know their tax money is well spent when it goes to its legislation can do to Manitoba, or has it never looked supporting the public education system. The effects of at the big picture? Bill 72 could be profound, and I am not convinced the government has thought through these effects carefully Bill 72-and I am going to quote here from the Report enough. Cutting costs, through making teachers unable of the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation to fairly bargain for theirsalaries and working conditions, Review Committee from May this year, grew out of the has far more reaching effects than simply taking money government's apparent recognition of society'sinvestment out of teachers' pockets or making them work even harder in public education because it is one of the best ways to for the money they earn. promote the social and economic well being of its citizens. Thegovernment wanted to seek solutions which If labour strife is introduced to Manitoba's teaching would best address the needsof Manitoba's students both profession, children are going to suffer and, hence, for todayand for the future. Bill 72 does not address the Manitoba will suffer. Ifteachers are not shown that they best interests of Manitoban, and it is clear that the are valued by this government for the extremely important government has not set a strongpublic education system job they do, their morale will suffer. Qualified people as one of its main priorities. will not enter the profession or they will not stay, and Manitobans will suffer. Ifpublic education is not valued Rather than attack the public education system in by this government, then Manitobans will suffer. Manitoba by attacking teachers and programs, the government needs to look at ways in which the system Why does this government seem to want to diminish can be strengthened. Teachers need to be rewarded for the effectiveness of teachers to deliver quality education doing the job they do and valued. The education of to the children of Manitoba? By creating labour strife children or the product of the system, ifyou would prefer and by pushing teachers to the limits of not only their that I use business terms, has to be safeguarded and professional capabilities but of their human capabilities encouraged. and by making them teach more and more with less and less funding and resources, surely this government can The government should be looking at ways in which see that children are going to suffer. education can be improved and then act upon them. Reducing the rates of teachers in their workplace and Does this government want to see children suffer? Is trying to break their spirit are not ways in which to the it the government's agenda to see the effectiveness of our quality of education can be improved. The government public education eroded? Does the government want to of Manitoba needs to set a strong public education weaken the public education system so that people will systemas one of its top priorities. The government needs look elsewhere for the education of their children? Not to send a strong message to the public that their tax all Manitobans will be able to afford that option. dollarsare well spent when theygo to support the system. The government needs to support the public education Does this government understand why a strong public system through funding and must remember that the education system is of vital importance to Manitoba? education of children is not something that we can afford Does this government not realize, as was pointed out by to sacrifice. Winnipeg 2000 in this Saturday's Free Press, that Manitoba prospers because of its educated workforce? I hopethat Bill 72 will be changed to better reflect the Who, in today's complexsociety, could possibly question needs of the public education system. I hope that, ifthe the value of a well-rounded education? government begins to see the effects of Bill 72 as not beingbeneficial to society, Bill 72 will simply be shelved Does thisgovernment not realize that by weakening the when it comes to time to vote on it. There are a lot of public education system it will also be effectively more positive ways to improve the public education attacking one of the basic means through which people's systemthan to stomp on the rates of its employees and to democratic rights are safeguarded? Ourpublic education reduce its effectiveness to the children of Manitoba. system must not be under attack, least of all, by our own Thanks. 662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much fo r your second thing it needs to do is promote the importance of presentation. the public education system to thepeop le of Manitoba, so people will stop complaining about paying taxes towards I amjust interested in something-all the presentations it, because it is very important. so fa r have talked about the grievance procedure, fa ilure to comply on the fa irness clause. The two trustee I think to get some good reasons, the government presentations indicated that while they support a fa irness simply has to listen to teachers because teachers are clause, they wanted to see the grievanoe procedure fo r trained to teach. They are in the classroom and teachers fa ilure to complyremo ved, because they f

education system. It is not a way of making things any people spent days trying to convey their concerns about better. the future of education through the Dyck-Render hearings, this government saw fit to propose legislation Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much fo r your thatwould fo rce teachers to take financial responsibility presentation, Ms. Evans. fo r the state of Manitoba's economy.

I want to get leave of the committee-it has been This government has fa iled to recognize that a well­ brought to my attention by the Clerk that one of the No. educated, economically secure populace is the greatest 7 presenters, that is Loretta Basiuk and Linda Dyrkacz, indication of a progressive, stable society. is from out of town. Is there leave of the committee to have that duo present next? [agreed] The ability-to-pay clause of Bill 72 presumes that in all cases, fo r the bill does not allow fo r exceptions unless Please come fo rward, Loretta Basiuk and Linda teachers wish to pursue the matter in court, boards of Dyrkacz. While they are coming fo rward, might I also trustees would offer fair remuneration to teachers based seek leave of thecommittee in order to save the taxpayers on local economic conditions at the particular time or, of Manitoba some money. We have the French stated in another way, based on the ability to pay. translation equipment here. We have two presentations that are intended to be in French and translation to This is not an original concept. Some parts of the English was necesscuyin that situation. That is presenter United States fund education in this manner. Over time ll and presenter 38. It seemed to make good sense and it has resulted in a system of discrimination and it was suggested by Mr. Reimer that they could go one ghettoization. There is already in Manitoba a after anotherand thenthat would allow the interpreters to discrepancy among areas with respect to band programs, leave. Is that the will of the committee? [agreed] Thank computer access and other services and resources. you verymuch and thanks fo r your patience, Ms. Basiuk and Ms. Dyrkacz. Who will go first? Can we rely on local school boards to recognize long­ term benefits of education in the fa ce of short-term Ms. Linda Dyrkacz (Agassiz Teachers' Association): requirements? No. We need a strong provincial govern­ This is Loretta Basiuk. I am Linda Dyrkacz. I will be ment to guarantee that all children in Manitoba receive making the presentation. Loretta is the support to help equal access to the best programs, the best resources and answer questions. the best teachers.

Mr. Chairperson: Fine. Go ahead, Ms. Dyrkacz. I statedthat ability to pay was not an original concept. Inanother sense, ability to pay has beenconsidered part Ms. Dyrkacz: We are real teachers. We were in the of thebasis by which we teachers have been given salary classroom today and we will be in the classroom increases and improvements in worlcing conditions fo r the tomorrow. We are tired, tired from teaching all day and past 40 years under the present system of binding preparing and marking at night. But we are more tired arbitration. It is a method fa ir to both parties in the from spending our spare time trying to protect ourselves bargaining system, the trustees elected to represent the from a hostile government. local citizens and the teachers who are in the employ of school divisions. I am here this evening to speak on an issue that is of utmost importance to the future of both the teachers of Also, as this government hasbeen reminded frequently, this province and Manitoba's education system as a it is a system that has kept Manitoba students in the whole, the issue of the collective bargaining rights of schools, not outside, victims of employer/employee teachers. malaise, disputes, lockouts or strikes. According to all available information, teachers' salaries have been in line It is the foc us of Bill 72, which you now have before with those of other professions with similar training and you. Its implications are fa r reaching. Although many experience, both within the province and nationally. concerned, articulate, impassioned and, yes, outraged Even some trustees who have fe lt burdened by shortages 664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

ofeducational fundingand bythe needto raise local taxes their commitment to education has decreased to 62 have expressed surprise and concern about how heavy­ percent? handed Bill 72 is. Perhaps, like teachers, some believe thecurrent system of fundingeducation dlfoughproperty The Filmon government has eroded the power of the taxationneeds considerable study and revision. Perhaps local trustees to offer quality programs to its students, to they fee l the government has gone too far by making keep class sizes manageable and to offer fm ancial teachers the scapegoatsin theissues of education finance. remuneration that will continue to attract the very best Perhaps some have a gnawing doubt about whether andbrightest into the teaching profession. It is simplistic ability topay really means, in many cases, willingness to and grosslyunfair to imply that by curbing or curtailing pay. teachers' rights to bargain fo r fa ir salaries that our educational system will improve, that the social ills that Ifwe lookat thetrack record of school boards in terms permeate our society-the racism, gang wars, poverty, of their willingness to pay, or rather to tax their unemployment, to name a fe w-will be cured. Ifonly it constituents in order to fund programs and to ensure that were that simple. teachers receive a reasonable salary increase, we find that at no timehave trustees really considered their taxpayers Theseproblems will not goaway by themselves, and as able to pay for education. Given the choice, who would schools continue to bearthe bruntof socialmalaise, we not profess an inability to pay? Certainly this will need not just good but exceptional teachers as we government will say that it is the trustees who are move into the next millennium. How can we convince demanding more power, more management rights in dedicated, talented people to work hard to build a career deteniuning teachers' salaries. in education if they know they will face continual government cutbacks, wages determined by management, * (1950) deterioratingworking conditions, increased stressand the increased illness that goes with it? Government must Make no mistake about it however, the: decisions that work closely with teachers in order that together they trustees have to make at every board meeting, the might solve these problems. This government can start programs to keep, the ones to cut, the resources that are by showing that it values its teachers. It can scrap Bill necessaryand the ones that can perhaps be done without 72. until some future time, the special needs students that cannot be ignored nor turned away from our classrooms Pedlaps manyof themembers present have not been in or redirectedprivate to schools or to some other division, the public schoolclas sroomlately. Perhaps some of their these decisions are very much affected iby the kind of children attend private school. Please consider that financial support given the local tmstees by this carefully. We do not begrudge the exceptional provincial government. opportunities and experiences that canbe afforded some children. What is wrong is giving private school children Back in 1981, the contribution from the provincial opportunities to the neglect of the democratic majority. government toward educational funding was 82 percent By consistently cutting funding to the public schools of the total cost of public school programs and services while increasing funding to private schools, by using comparedto the present government's contributionof 62 issues of teachers' salaries and working conditions as percent. Let usgive that some thought. Even though we screens to hide the bigger issues of unemployment, have had a public commitment from P1remier Filmon poverty and other social ills affectingManitobans today, some years ago to strive fo r 80 percent government this government is shirking its responsibility as leaders fu nding and despite assurances from d1e Minister of and isundermining the trust of the people who elected it. Finance, Mr. Stefanson, of unprecedented economic growth in Manitoba's economy, this government's contribution to educational spending has dropped to 62 Teachers work very hard. They have to in order to percent of the yearly cost of services and programs in survive. [interjection] I was waiting fo r attention. They 1996-97. Can the people of Manitoba trust this have to in order to survive-sorry, teacher habit, cannot government toappoint fairand impartial arbitrators when help it-they have to in order to survive in this present October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665

economic climate askedby being to do more with less, of Mn. Mcintosh: I indicate again that we do understand increasing social problems and of high unemployment. the work you do, and we do value the work you do. We In fa ct, at times, it seems to teachers that, given this are not asking fo r wage rollbacks or any of the things that pervading climate, perhaps our most useful role as are implied in some of the comments that have been teachers might be to train students how best to cope with made. unemployment. Infac t, ifwe lookaround this table we would probably Perhaps better times are ahead. We hope so, but we have as many teachers around this table as we do per also know that teachers increasingly are being asked to capita in the audience, and I indicate to you that eight of take on more and more demanding roles within the our own caucus members areteach ers. Many others have educational system. Schoolsite-based management, fo r daughters or sons who are teachers or spouses who are example, purports to give teachers empowerment in teachers, so we do know and understand. I emphasize making grassroots decisions but necessarily would thatbecause I sincerelybelieve with all my heart and soul demand more of them interms of time, responsibility and thatwhat we arebringing f orward has much good in it fo r accountabilityas teachers would betaking on many of the teachers. responsibilities traditionally designed to the school's administration. I wanted to ask you a question in terms of funding because I know funding is a frustration fo r all of us. It is Theseare not tasks thatcan be taken care of during 1 0- a particular frustration fo r me as Minister of Education minute coffee breaks but require commitment, study, and fo r this government wanting to give fa r more than we reflection, collaboration and a great deal of time and are able to give, and I wanted just to ask you a question effort, this in addition to the already very significant role about yourobservations on this statistic. You mentioned we have as the core of educational instruction, as 1981 and the percentage of operating costs that were planners, motivators, fa cilitators and evaluators of fu nded compared to today. I do not have 1981 figures learning and as general student advocates. herebecause all Ihave with me isstart ing 198 7, but I can indicate toyou in 1987, the Province of Manitoba funded Doesit not make sense that ifwe expect teachers to be public schools by $633 million, and that is the year we so many things to so many people that we respect their took office or the fo llowing year, and now we fund it to desire tohave significant input into the process that deals $745 million, which is a $113-million increase. Most of with their working conditions, remuneration and general that increase was given in the years prior to the fe deral welfare? transfer cuts. Since the fed eral transfer cuts, you have experienced the $43 million coming out in the last three Look around. Read the paper. Watch the news. Our years. Even so, there is still a net increase of $113 province is hiring extra police gang units, advocating million, and the size of the fe deral transfer cuts has not nightly curfews and creating special task fo rces to deal been passed onto the system. We have a 35 percent cut. with the problems of youth in our present-day society. You are experiencing a 2 percent. And just ask Mr. Study after study tells us that teachers and education Reimer what it fe els like to have a department that is make a real difference in the lives of these kids. We are down to nine people, which is what his Urban Affairs is in the front lines every day. Why does this government left with, to say how we have done it to ourselves before begrudge the teachers of Manitoba the opportunity to we do it to anybody else. bargain in a fa ir and unbiased system, a system no other group has been denied? My question is this: Iftoday , when we are putting $113 million more into the system, the percentage of Honourable members, Bill 72 is an affront to teachers operating costs that it covers is less, one can only and to anyone who is committed to a strong education conclude, the only logical explanation fo r that is that system. It cannot be allowed to become law by any operating costs have risen. That is the only rationale fo r government that calls itself democratic. Thank you. the changein the percentage of covering operating costs. Would you comment on that fo r me. please? What Mr. Chairperson: Thankyou very much, Ms. Dyrkacz. operatingcosts do you think have increased so drastically 666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

thatthe percentage of coverage of operating costs would Ms. Dyrkacz: It is too bad. We would be happy to at go down evenwhen the number of dollars have gone up? some other time.

* (2000) Mr. Chairpenon: Leave has not been granted. Greg Fritske. Greg Fritske, Brandon Teachers' Association. You may begin, Mr. Fr:tsi

It is my pleasure and privilege and honour to represent Mr. Chairperson: We are running out of time. the over 500 members of the Brandon Teachers' Associatioo. I am a teacher in Brandon. I teach Grade 6 Ms. Friesen: I would like to thank you fo r your and I waselected by my peers to rep resent their interests, presen�tion and also fo r coming so fa r to make the and that is what I am here doing tonight. I am not here presentation as well. I think I wanted to begin with the representing my own, but I am representing theirs and, I financial issues. Theminist er has suggestlxl that the cuts wouldsubmit, the interest of most teachers and all public to public educatioo aredue to the fed eral c111tbacks, but of school teachers in Manitoba. Bill 72 is neither fa ir nor course I think, as we all know, that those cuts to public reasonable, and its effects will be disastrous fo r public education began in a systematic way ye:ars before the schooling in Manitoba, let there be no doubt. Why this federal cutbacks were in place. Thc::y have been is so can best be seen in the answers to three questions. accompanied by regular increases to the private schools in almost every year that this government has been in The first question, what do we have now? In 1956, office. I thinkyou draw attention to that in your brief. throughamen dments to legislation, teachers in Manitoba and their employers entered into a fo rm of collective I also noticed and underlined fo r myself your argument bargaining which both sides recognized as fa ir and that the government saw fit to propose legislation that reasonable, a fo rm of collective bargaining which was a would fo rce teachers to take financial responsibility fo r progressive improvement over traditional bargaining the state of Manitoba's economy, and I just wantlxl to put systems becauseof itsmethod of dispute resolution. That on the record that of course the Manitoba economy had dispute resolution did not involve lockout or strike. an operating fund surplus last year of $157 million. Teachers gave up the right to strike and employers surrendered the right to lock out, and in its place we got Ms. Dyrkacz: We are waitingfo r our in,crease. binding arbitration, which you have heard much about. It was fa ir then. It is fa ir now. This has been a Ms. Friesen: Thank you. I wanted to ask you about the reasonable exchange. inequities thatyou draw ouratt ention to. 1l!tere is already a Manitobadiscrepancy amon g areaswith r1espect to band Arbitratioo panels are cootpOSedof three members, one programs, computer access and other services and representing employees, one representing employers and resources. Could you give me a sense from your anindependent arbitrator, and because these panels have perspective of those growing inequitic:s across the been able to rule freely on the basis of evidence, they province? have imposed fair settlements. As it is, the system works.

Mr. Chairperson: I am afraid we are out of time. Some interesting fa cts . In the 1990s settlements achieved bynegotiation and those imposed by arbitration Ms. Friesen: Leave. have beenvirtually the same . Arbitration does not create large, unreasonable settlements. Only once in the 40 Mr. Chairperson: I am afraid you arc� out of time. years of this system has the initial settlement in this [interjection] Not unless leave is granted. province been reached through arbitration. Thirty-nine October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 timesout of fo rty, the bargaining pattern in the province three-quarters of a billion dollars. Why then has this has been set by a negotiated agreement. Another government attacked those most vulnerable and interesting fact. Since 1983, of more than 700 defenceless by lowering support fo r their futures? Our settlements reached, only 42 were arbitrated. In that time childrendeserve better than that. Arguments of the need not one minute of pupil time at school has been lost to to cut the deficit are bald-faced lies. The deficit dragon job action, strike or lockout. This system serves our in Manitoba is slain. There have been accumulated students well; it serves our boards well; it serves surpluses, and law now requires balanced budgets. So taxpayers well; it serves teachers well. where has this three-quarters of a billion dollars gone? Why should children have to be hurt by cuts when all of What are we getting? Bill 72 is not fa ir. At the heart thismoney is pouring into government revenues? It is a of its unfairness is this requirement that arbitrators must true shame to our children, and it is a shame to our base the financial aspects of the arbitrated settlements on province. school divisions' ability to pay. Bill 72 stipulates that ability to pay is determined by current revenues. School Keepin mind, too, thatBill 72 itself not only addresses board revenues, whatever their source, are derived from mechanisms fo r arbitration but collective bargaining taxation, and the level of taxation is a unilateral decision. generallyin and doingso sets severe time limits in which It is not a matter of bargaining. negotiations may occur. Most negotiators on both sides are people with full-time jobs. The 60-day minimum Within the bargainingstructure proposed by Bill 72, a provided fo r negotiation will prove inadequate. Even if school board can arbitrarily limit its ability to pay by parties agreeto something else, it fa lls back to 60 days. settingits tax rates to whatever level it wants to. In tum, Negotiations will almost inevitably find themselves in the provincial government can do likewise through arbitration. So the arbitrator will find him or herself reduced supportto school boards. Once that is done and making a decision, determined in a large partnot by the arbitration isimplemented, the arbitrator's hands are tied. evidence and arguments presented during negotiations, He or she can only work within the artificial limits nor by the realities of ability to pay, but by a school imposed by a school board decision which is made in board's budgetary decisions and a provincial govern­ advance of even the first stage of negotiations. In effect, ment's commitment to funding education. Bill 72 will the arbitratormust impose a settlement based on a school not work. board's willingness, not ability, to pay. Moreover, in arbitration, certain mattersrelating to teacher welfare and Another question. Where will it lead? The Teacher working conditions cannot even be considered. This is Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review not free and open collective bargaining. Committee has reported, quote, teachers are working in an environment where much more is expected of them This resulting situation is absurd, and it is unjust. today than in the past. They are dealing with problems Once a school board has defmed its own ability to pay, which require previously unheard-of skills, time and realnegotiation and truearbitration are impossible. How energy. Teachers are feeling blamed, attacked, targeted, does this fit into fa ir collective bargaining enjoyed devaluedand unappreciated. Bill 72 will only make this elsewhere across Canada and across Manitoba and the worse. Whydoes the governmentwish to go ahead with world? Why are teachers in Manitoba being subjectedto this when that is thecase? Teachers in my division tell this? Since we do not have the right to strike, how can me that theyhave never experienced as low a morale as our concerns be heard? Every other employee group in theyhave now. At a meeting in Brandon, the Minister of Manitoba can freelynegotiate. Why are teachers having Educationand Training (Mrs. Mcintosh) personally told this right taken away? us that the Enhancing Accountability: Ensuring Quality document had a negative effect upon teacher morale. It Some interesting information about money. In my is stillat an all-time low, and the No. l cause of it is the view, the most important aspect of all of this is the attacks that teachers are facing from the provincial government's willingness to pay. According to Finance government. The Minister of Education was unable to department reports, government revenues have increased give me solid answers about how she could improve by $750 million in the past two fiscal years. That is teacher morale. The answer is quite clear. The 668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October28, 1996 provincial government should stop its attacks on teachers It is obvious that this governmentfee ls that teachers are and halt the passage of Bill 72. overpaid. Perhaps a low-paid babysitting service is the typeof settingthat individuals who feel this way wish our * (2010) children to be in,instead of a setting where highly trained professionals offer the best education possible. A person who receives a Bachelor's degree invests severalyears work and tens of thousands of dollars in the Inconclusion, ifBill 72 is passed,what sort of teachers course of his or her education over and above ordinary are Manitoba's yOlDlg people going to have in the future? living expenses. Anyone who makes such an investment What sort of education? The Brandon Teachers' merits a career that will reward him or her with job Associationurges thego vernment to halt Bill 72 to allow satisfaction and a reasonable salary. Do we wish to fairnessin thebargaining process and, more importantly, provide the employees of Manitoba with !these things, or to ensure that our children will have the best future do we fee l that they are overpaid and und<:rworked? Bill possible. Bill 72, in our opinion, is nothing short than 72 will prevent these things from occurring for teachers targeting teachers fo r political gain. even ifwe wish them to. The conditions created by Bill 72, to quote the Winnipeg Free Press, will frustrate and Unfortunately, targeting teachers is targeting kids. demoralizeteachers. That is certainlyoccurri ng. Wages How sad it is for a government in a democratic society to willdrop and the best brighte and st will move away. The do such a thing. Thankyou. qualityof Manitoba's public school syst,em will slowly but S':lfely decline. Financially poorscho ols- Mr. Chairpenon: Thankyou, Mr. Fritske.

Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you very much fo r that Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Fritske, your l 0 minutes is up. presentation. Can tellyou mewhat you have seen in your classroom in terms of the effects of the reductions of Mr. Fritske: I have about two paragraphs, three more funding by the provincial government? Can you put it paragraphs. into a context that the public can understand?

Mr. Chairperson: With leaveof the committee. This Mr. Fritske: We see increasing class sizes in Brandon. will encroach on the question and answer time. Agreed? We see ever-increasing amounts of split-grade class­ Proceed. rooms at the elementary level. The biggest concern that teachers in Brandon have is class size. We just did a Mr. Fritske: Thankyou . Financially poor schools and surveythat indicated th at. An arbitrator cannot arbitrate divisions will stay poor and possibly get poorer, creating onthat. We want the right to be able to grieve that, and mequality of educational opportunity. Where is the we appreciate it in Bill 72. equity of education that it is the responsibility of the province to provide? I am teaching a new grade fo r the third year in a row. I have eight text books to teach a new science curriculum It is said that we are just a special-interest group, and to my students. It is very difficult. that is true. I can tell you we are very proud to be a special-interest group because our special interest Ms. Mihychuk: For how many children? happens to be children and the yow11g people of Manitoba. Teachers cannot think of a higher purpose or Mr. Fritske: Thatis for 20 students. It is very difficult. a better cause, and few of us, given fa ir remuneration For any type of home study that kids have to do, it is benefits and working conditions, can think of a fm er almost impossible, and I am not allowed to break vocation. All the same, many of our colleagues who are copyright rules. So it raises some challenges that way. nearing retirement say that they are glad to be getting out soon and that they fo resee that Bill 72 and other Ms. Mihychuk: Many of the challenges are very legislation will lead to greater hardship and diminished impressive. We know our children are coming in with reward. more things fo r you to deal with as a teacher, and there October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669

are more challenges from the outside world in a lot of franco-manitobaine. Selon Ia Loi sur les ecoles different fa ctors. If you had your druthers, where would publiques notre commission scolaire n'a pas de controle you like to be foc using your attention, and the other side sur ses revenus etant donne qu'elle n'a pas le pouvoir de of it, where are you foc using your attention? prelever les irnpots fo nciers. Comme resultat, nous sommes a Ia merci des decisions fiscales des divisions Mr. Fritske: Teachers get into teaching to teach. scolaires dans lesquelles resident les eleves de Ia DSFM. Teachers love working with kids, helping them learn, helping them to expand their knowledge, helping them to De plus, des la mise en vigueur de Ia DSFM huit des become well-rounded citizens. We deal with all the neuf divisions cedantes ont refuse de remettre la juste social issues that kids bring to school because we care partde leurssu rplus a Ia nouvelle division scolaire. Des about them, welove them, we want them to have what is fonds auxquels Ia DSFM avait droit des sa mise en best and wetry to offer things that they might not have in vigueur ne lui ont jamais ete remis. Pour nous, ceci est their home life or other situations. But I think, given our un exemple de l'effet nefaste que le manque de volonte druthers, we would rather fo cus on academic pursuits fo r politique peut avoir sur le fm ancement pour Ia DSFM. the most part, even though we certainly see the benefits and the need fo r the other areas. Meme si les divisions scolaires dans lesquelles nos eleves sont residents ont !'obligation statutaire de Mr. Chairperson: Thankyou very much for that. Your transferer des fonds a Ia DSFM, ces divisions ne sont time has expired, and thank you for your presentation, aucunementtenues de se soucierdes besoins fm anciers de Mr. Fritske. Ia DSFM. Deplus, toutes ces commissions scolaires ont le pouvoir de determiner leurs politiques fiscales par I would now like to call on Paul LaRiviere, and Aurele rapport a Ia taxation. Les decisions fiscales se fo nt a Boisvertwill fo llow Mr. LaRiviere. Mr. LaRiviere, you partir de leur volonte de prelever des revenus au plan may proceed en fran�ais. local. Par consequent, nous sommes clairement otages des divisions d'ou proviennent des eleves de Ia DSFM. Mr. Paul LaRiviere (L'Association des Educateurs/ Educatrices Francophone du Manitoba): Je m'appelle * (2020) Paul LaRiviere et je suis ici au nom des 350 enseignants et enseignantes de l'Association des educatrices et des II est faux d'affirmer, comme l'a fa it Madame Ia educateurs franco-manitobains. Mes collegues ministre Mcintosh tout recemment, que !'arbitrage a servi enseignent dans les 21 ecoles de Ia Division scolaire les enseignantes et les enseignants mieux que les autres franco-manitobaine. Notre division s'etend de Saint­ employes du secteur public au Manitoba. De fait, entre Lazare a La Broquerie et nous sommes representes par 1988 et 1994, les hausses salariales negociees pour les une quinzaine de membres a l'Assemblee legislative. Je principaux groupes d'employes du secteur public au suis ici pour vous vehiculer notre colere vis-a-vis le Manitoba ont varie de 21 pour cent a 28 pour cent. Projetde loi 72. Ce projet de loi vise a desequilibrer un Parmices groupes, certains beneficient du droit de greve systeme de negociation qui a bien desservi les citoyens de plutot que de !'arbitrage executoire. Selon l'analyse de cette province depuis 1956. Travail Canada, les echelles salariales du personnel enseignant de l'ensemble de Ia province auraient Cette loi est punitive et regressive, car, effectivement, augmente, en moyenne, de 25 pour cent au cours de Ia elle nous enleve le droit a !'arbitrage executoire, un droit meme periode, ce qui les place au milieu du tableau. pour lequel, il y a 40 ans, nous avions volontiers echange le droit de greve. Ce fa it, par lui-meme - et ici je cite Madame Betty Green, presidente de Ia Manitoba I'editorial du Free Press du 23 rnai 1996 - ". . . Associationof School Trustees, a publiquement declare embarrasses all Manitobans who believe in equalityand que le comite Dyck-Render a largement depasse le fundamental democratic rights". mandat qu'on lui avait confie. Madame Carolyn Duhamel, presidente sortante de ce meme organisme, a Ce projet de loi est particulierement punitif pour les egalement enonce des propos semblables dans le Lance enseignants et les enseignantes de Ia Division scolaire du premieroctobre 1996, et je cite: "Duhamel added the 670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October28, 1996

association is concerned about the heavy··handed tone of La Broquerie and we are represented in the Legislative the changes and whether some of the amendments are Assembly SOOleby 15 MLAs. I am here to convey to you even necessary. 'Is there something not working that ouranger about Bill 72. Thisbill is designed to create an needs fixing? What is the problem?', asked Duhamel. imbalance in a bargaining system that has served the Theassociation also doubts the educational value of the citizens ofthis province well since 1956. proposed disclosure of public sector employee salaries. 'What will this do fo r children to publi1;h salaries and This legislation is punitive and regressive, as it benefits?', askedDuhamel ." effectively takes away ourright to binding arbitration, a right in exchange for which we voluntarily gave up the Je me rends compte que ce dernier oommentaire de rightto strike 40 years ago. Thisfa ct, by itself-and here Madame Duhamel touche le Projet de loi 57, mais nous I quote the Free Press editorial of May 23, voyons tous ces Projets de loi 72, 26, 33, 47 et 57 d'un 1996-"embarrasses all Manitobans who believe in memeoeil. lls ne viennent que perturber lies relations de equality and fundamental democratic rights." travail entre les enseignants et les ense1ignantes et les commissions scolaires. Ces projets de loi risquent de Thisbill is particularly punitive fo r the teachers of the nuire de fa �on irreparable a Ia bonne relation de travail Division scolaire franco-manitobaine. According to The que nous avons avec nos employeurs dans Ia DSFM. Public Schools Act,our school board has no control over its revenues given that it does not have the power to D'apres nous, le Projet de loi 72 ne touche pas le vrai collect property tax. As a result, we are at the mercy of probl�me. II ne s'agit pas d'un systeme de negociation the fiscal decisions of the school divisions in which defectueux mais plutot d'un sous-financ:ement et d'un DSFM pupils live. manque d'appui ideologique de )'education de Ia partde cegouvemement. Oil est l'engagement de M. Filmon de In addition, ever since the DSFM came into being, financerle systeme des ecoles publiques a 80 pour cent? eight of the nine provider school divisionshave refused to tumover a fairshare of their surplus to the new school C'est aussi une question de valeurs. Une societe qui division. Funds to which the DSFM was entitled from n'est pas prete a investir dans sa jeunesse n'a pas the time it came into being have never beenremitted . In d'avenir. Souvenez-vous des paroles du chef fe deral, M. ouropinion, this isan example of the harmful impact that Jean Charest, qui a dec�are dans un discours lors du a lack of political will can have on funding fo r the congres national du Parti conservateur: We must look at DSFM. values. We have to support teachers and we have to support schools. I find it unusual that we do not value Even if theschool divisions in which our pupils reside people liketeachers mae, that we claim tht:y are paid too have a statutory obligation to transfer funds to the much. They have one of themost important and valuable DSFM, those divisions are in no way obliged to concern roles in society. themselves about the DSFM's financial needs. What is more, all those school boards have the power to En bref, nous aimerions que ce Projet de loi 72 soit determine their fiscal policies in relation to taxation. retire ou, du moins, severement modifie. Merci. Fiscal decisions are made on the basis of their willingness to collect revenue at the local level. As a Mr. Chairperson: Merci beaucoup. result, we areclearly hostageto the divisions fromwhich the DSFM's pupils come. (Translation] Mr. Paul LaRiviere (L'Association des Educateurs/ It is fa lse to say, as the Honourable Mrs. Mcintosh Educatrices Francophone du Manitoba): My name is recently did, that arbitration has served teachers better Paul LaRiviere, and I am here on behalf of the 350 than the other public sector employees in Manitoba. In teachers of the Association des educa.trices et des fact, between 1988 and 1994, the salary raisesnegotiated educateurs franco-manitobains. My colleagues teach in fo r the main public sector employee groups in Manitoba the 21 schools of the Division SCCJ1laire franco­ varied from 21 percent to 28 percent. Some of these manitobaine. Ourdivision stretches from Saint-Lazare to groups benefitthe from right to strike rather thanbinding October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671

arbitration. According to Labour Canada, the salary Mrs. Mcintosh: Merci, Paul. You had indicated that scales of teaching staff fo r the whole of the province you would like to see the bill amended, and I wonder if increased by an average of 25 percent during the same you couldindicate how youwould like to see it amended. period, which puts them in the middle of the chart. What wording changes would you suggest?

Ms. Betty Green, president of the Manitoba Mr. LaRiviere: J'ai indique que j'aimerais plutot voir Association of School Trustees, has publicly stated that ce projet de loi retire, mais s'il n'est pas retire j'aimerais the Dyck-Render committee went way beyond the voir des amendements, des modifications importantes au mandate it had been given. Ms. Carolyn Duhamel, past projet. La seule chose qui possiblement pourrait president of the same organization made similar remarks demeurer dans ce projet d'apres moi, d'apres nos in the October 1996 Lance and I quote: "Duhamel added membres, c'est Ia question de ce droit de greve-pardon, the association is concerned about the heavy-handed tone pas de greve, de grief, je ne dois pas me tromper ici-ce ofthe changes and whether some of the amendments are droit de griefau sujet de choses qui ne paraissent pas even necessary. 'Is there something not working that dans l'article, dans Ia convention collective. C'est une needs fixing? What is the problem?' asked Duhamel. possibilite. Nous trouvons que ce n'est pas certainement The association also doubts the educational value of the notrepref erence. Nous prererons voir un systeme ou tout proposed disclosure of public sector employee salaries. peut etre negocie, ou les negociations sont vraiment 'What will this do fo r children to publish salaries and ouvertes et libres, mais si ce projet de loi avance comme benefits?' asked Duhamel." il est, nous aimons certainement cet item-la.

I realizethat this latter comment by Ms. Duhamel was Ms. Friesen: Merci, M. LaRiviere pour votre in reference to Bill 57, but weview all these bills-72, 26, presentation. Je vous remercie de nous souligner les 33, 47, 57-in the same way. The only purpose they serve difficultes qui se presentent a Ia Division scolaire ftanco­ is to disrupt labour relations between teachers and school manitobaine. Si vous me permettez, je vais poser mes boards. These bills risk doing irreparable harm to the questions en anglais. good labourrelations that we have with our employers in the DSFM. Mr. LaRiviere: Oui, certainement.

In our opinion, Bill 72 does not address the real (Translation) problem. The issue is not one of a defective bargaining system but rather under-fundingand a lack of ideological I have said that I would rather�ee this support fo r education on the part of the government. Mr. LaRiviere: bill withdrawn, but if it is not, I would like to see some Where is Mr. Filmon's commitment to finance 80 percent major amendments to the bill. The only thing that I fe el, of the public school system? our members fee l could possibly remain in this bill is the The issue is also one of values. A society that is not question of this right to strike-pardon me, not strike, grievance, I hadbetter not makea mistake here-this right prepared to invest in its youth has no future. Remember the words of the fe deral party leader, Mr. Jean Charest, to grievance in regard to things that do not appear in the collective agreement. That is one possibility. We who in a speech during the national Conservative party convention said: We must look at values. We have to certainlydo not consider it our preference. We prefer to support teachers and we have to support schools. I find seea system in which everything is negotiable, in which if it unusual that we donot value people like teachers more, negotiations are truly free and open, out this bill goes that we claim they are paid too much. They have one of fo rth as is, we certainly like that item. the most important and valuable roles in society. Ms. Friesen: Thank you fo r your presentation, Mr. In short, we would like Bill 72 to be withdrawn or at LaRiviere. I thank you fo r pointing out to us the least radically amended. Thank you. difficulties that are facing the Division scolaire ftanco­ manitobaine. IfI may, I would like to pose my questions Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. in English. 672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Mr. LaRiviere: Yes, certainly. Mr. LaRiviere: Oui,c'etait mon opinion et de se tier a desemployes et desemployeurs qui peuvent quand meme Ms. Friesen: Bon, merci. I recognize: that what you trouver des solutions raisonnables. have done has indicated fo r us two thing:s: one, that the trustees themselves are not necessarily whole-heartedly in (Translation) favor of the process that has enabled us, or enabled the minister toarri ve atthis, and I thankyou fbr putting some Mr. LaRiviere: I think that, seeing the fm ancial of those comments on the record. situation, or rather the DSFM's inability to collect property taxes,I think that this puts us in a very difficult You have also indicated thediffic ulties for the Division position in thebargaining proces s. So I raise these points scolaire because of the fa ct that you do not collect your to show that, for us, this legislation that talks about the own taxes, and what concerns me there is the school divisions' ability to pay really ties our hands in implications fo r the rule of an arbitrator affecting school termsof bargaining in a way that is, I think, more serious programs, and the trustees themselves r;nised this issue than for other school divisions, and the impact that this with us. · How is that likely to work fo r the Division couldhave, fa , as I sayin my brief, we have good labour scolaire? What kind of programs might be affected? relations withour school board, with our school division. How might the role of an arbitratoraff ect your ability to offer the kind of programs that you need to present? Ifthi s ability to pay remains in the bill, and if the bill in fact passes as is, I really think that it is going to be Mr. LaRiviere: Je crois que, vu Ia situation financiere, very difficult to maintain those good relations with the ou vu, pardon, le manque de capacite dte Ia DSFM de DSFM, whichalready wi ll probably have to cut programs prelever des impdts fa nciers, je crois que �a nous place and perhaps let staff go. Things could be even more dans une situation tees difficile dans le processus de serious ifwe end up in a situation in which the school negociation. Alors je souleve ces points-lei indiquer que division has financial obligations resulting from a pour nous autres cette loi qui parle de Ia capacite de negotiation. payer des divisions scolaires, pour nous, vraiment, �a vient nous lier les mains en negociation d'une fa �on, je Ms. Friesen: I believe that it was your opinion that the pense, encore plus severe, plus grave que: pour d'autres department should withdraw these regulations, this bill, divisions scolaires et l'effet que �a pourrait avoir and start to bring teachers and trustees together once certainement, comme je dis dans mon brc�f. nous avons again. une tres bonne relation de travail au moment avec notre commission scolaire, avec notre division :scolaire. Mr. LaRiviere: Yes, that was my opinion, and trust Si cettecapacite de payerdemeure dans l1e projet de loi, employees and employers, who can nonetheless fm d et si le projet de loi de fa it passe comme il l'est, je pense reasonable solutions. vraiment que �a va etre tres difficile de rnaintenir cette bonne relation que Ia DSFM, qui dej a probablement Mr. Chairperson: Merci et bonsoir. Aurele Boisvert. devracouper des programmes et peut-etre laisser aller du For those of you that want translation into English, there personnel. �a pourrait etre encore plus grave si on se are some of these devices at the back of the room which trouve dans un processus oil Ia Division scolaire a des you can access. obligations financieres resultant d'une negociation. Mr. AurileBoisvert (Francophone School Division): * (2030) Bonsoir. Merci pour me donner Ia chance de vous adresser au nom du Projet de loi 72. Et done je viens ce Ms. Friesen: Je crois que c'etait votre avis en tout que soir au nom de Ia Commission scolaire franco­ le ministere doit annuler ces regulations, cette bill, et manitobaine. Nous desirons vous exprimer certaines de commencer encore une fo is a rejoindre les trustees et les nos preoccupations concernant le Projet de loi 72. Nous professeurs. voulons afftrmer en debut de presentation que nous October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673

supportons Ia positionde !'Associationdes cornrnissaires Un danger potentiel pour notre division scolaire est d'ecoles du Manitoba, c'est-a-dire, MAST dans leurs qu'elle souffie, a long terme, de Ia perception de ne pas declarations sur ce projet de loi. avoir Ia capacite equivalente aux autres divisions scolaires de fo urnir un traitement equitable a ses professeurs. Nous preferons prevenir que guerir un Nous sornrnes une division scolaire avec des aspects probleme quipourrait avo ir un effet tres negatif sur notre particuliers a cause de notre mandat provincial. Nous division scolaire. voulons aujourd'hui toucher les points qui sont particuliers et meme peut-Stre uniques a notre situation Nous vous proposons done deux choses: 1) Un de division scolaire a dimension provinciale. processusd'arbitrage-que le processus d'arbitrage ne cree pas une situation de precedents qui ne tiendraient pas Les sections 129(3) et 129(4) traitant de notrecapacite compte de notre manaat provincial. 2) Que notre de payer nous preoccupent enormement. Puisque nous incapacite de prelever des revenus au moyen d'impots sommes Ia seule division scolaire ne possedant pas le fo nciers soit toujours prise en consideration par l'arbitre pouvoir de percevoir des revenus au moyen d'irnpots appointe en situation de conflit. fo nciers, notre capacite de payer s'en trouve tres lirnitee. Nos revenus provinciaux par eleve sont inferieurs a Ia Merci beaucoup de votre attention. moyenne provinciale. Celapourr ait potentiellement avoir pour effet a long terme que nous mettions en peril notre Mr. Chairperson: Merci capacite d'attirer des professeurs competents et devoues, diia notre incapacite de leur offiirun salaire competitif. (Translation] Nous croyons qu'une fo rmule de revenu provincial equitable devrait etre irnplantee afm d'assurer que tous Mr. AureleBoisvert (Francophone School Division): nos eleves puissent obtenir une education equivalente au Good evening. Thankyou fo r giving me the chance to niveau de toute Ia province. II est difficile pour nous de address youabout Bill 72. I comethis evening on behalf voir comment nous pourrions maintenir notre capacite de of the Commission scolaire franco-manit

Nous sommes aussi inquiets de l'effet de precedent que Clauses 129(3) and 129(4) dealing with our ability to Ia decision d'un arbitre pourrait avoir sur notre division pay concern us greatly. As we are the only school scolaire. Etant donne notre particularite nous voudrions division without the power to collect revenue through etre proteges contre une decision qui ne refleterait pas property taxes, our ability to pay ends up being very notre realite fiscaleet demographique. limited. Ourprovincial revenues per pupil are less than the provincial average. In the long term, this could Finalement, nous sornrnes aussi concemes avec Ia threaten our ability to attract competent and dedicated section 131.4(1 ), c'est-a-dire !'obligation d'agir d'une teachers, due to our inability to offer them a competitive fa yon juste. A titre d'exemple, le geste de transferer des salary. We fee l that a fa ir provincial revenue fo rmula professeurs dans une division scolaire telle que Ia notre should be brought in to ensure that all of our pupils ayant un mandat provincial pourrait etre per�u cornrne throughout theprovince can receive equivalent education. etant injuste, mais jusqu'a quelle distance le transfert est It is difficult for us to see how we can maintain our juste? ability to pay without being ob!iged to cut staff or 674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

programs or other br,.;ic expenclitures that already exist. government,particularly how this bill was going to affect We also wonder how an arbitrator could dictate our your school division. ability to pay without interfering in our local autonomy, by ordering us to cut certain essential programs or bus Mr. Boisvert: The minister has indicated to us that she routes, fo r example. As you probably can see, we are would like to meet frequently because we are a new very interested in be;11g informed of the criteria involved schooldivision, and that she would be open to discussing in decisions on ability to pay. any of the subjects that would be presented to us and to her. Specifically on Bill 72 we have not had direct We are also concerned about the impact that an discussions that I can recall, according to our arbitrator's decision might have on our school division. particularity, but we have had some discussions on a Givenour distmctive characteristics, we would like to be general basis about the particularity of our school protected against a decision that does not reflect our division. fiscal and demographic reality. Ms. Friesen: Do any of the amendments which the Lastly, wearealso co ncernedwith Claus1: 131.4(1), the minister has brought to the table today address your obligation to act fa irly. To give an example, the act of requirements fo r protection, I think, as you say, transferring teachers within a school division such as ours protection against decisions which do not reflect your that has a province-wide mandate could be perceived as demographic and fiscal realities as well as your need fo r, being unfair, but how fa r a transfer is fa ir? particularly, amicable relations with your teachers? You are a newsc hool divisionand you must establish the kind One potential danger fo r our school division is that, of relationships which have been established overmany over the long term, it might suffer from 1the perception decades in other divisions. Have the minister's that it does not have the same ability as the other school amendments addressed any of those issues? divisions to provide its teachers with a fa 1ir salary. We prefer preventing a problem that might have a highly Mr. Boisvert: Yes, I believe some of them have, up to negative impact on our schooldivision to curing one. a certain point. I think the word "primarily" is being

removed. This, I think, is something good fo r us. We therefore propose two things: (1) that the However, I think we are here today to voice our position arbitration process not establish precedents that do not because of our particularity, and we hope that when, fo r take into account our province-wide mandat,e, and (2) that instance, the precedent effect of her decision by an our inability to collect revenue through property taxes arbitrator might have a negative effect on our situation always be taken into consideration by the arbitrator because of our particularity. appointed to settle a dispute. So these are some of the things that we would like to Thank you for your attention. bring forward that weare addressing tonight, and that we probably will be talking to the minister about in the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. future.

Ms. Cerilli: I wiU not try to ask my questions in French. Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, thank you, Aurele. I appreciate the points you haveraised in your brief. In similar ways, Mr. Boisvert: It is okay. Frontier isfacing similar kinds of concerns, but not to the samedegree thatyou would fo r a couple of reasons. One, Ms. Cerilli: A couple of things. First of all, thanks fo r you are new and you are having all of the attendant your presentation, and I am learning some things that startup things to deal with, and as well, you are finding a perhaps others knew more about with r�espect to the slightly different receipt from the school divisions. Francophone School Division, but I am wondering ifthe minister had consultation meetings with your school We will be very conscious of your circumstances here division, and if you made these concerns known to the as we go through this. I believe that it will be all right, minister, and what the response wa1s from the given the wayin whichthe comparisons have to be made, October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675

but certainly yours is one division we will be watching problem? I am not sure. We will have to cut in our carefullygo through the process, because you are new fo r programs and cut maybe in our transportation and so on starters and you do not have the long-time relationships and so fo rth. built yet, but also becauseyour funding circumstances are so unique. So we are conscious of it, I guess, is all I am Sothis is where weare coming from right now, and we wanting to let you know. hopethat maybe these problems will be addressed. You are right, they have not been addressed right now. We Mr. Boisvert: Thank you very mLch. hope that they will be.

lr (2040) Mrs. Mcintosh: Thankyou again, Aurele, and your last Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): was just few comments I listened to with particular interest wondering if you have had a legal opinion, or thought of because it is both a blessing and a curse, your situation, a legal opinion, in regard to being the Francophone and as I say, we will be watching closely. We do not School Division because of the uniqueness of not being want you fee ling hostage in any way. We would like you able to raise revenue through taxation, if that would put to fe el that you are the recipient of good things. So we you at a position of unique disadvantage, and therefore recognize your unique situation. ·.ne points that you under the Charter of Rights there would be a Charter have made here are very valid and we will take them into argument in regardto this legislation. Have you received serious consideration. a legal opinion about that? Ms. Friesen: Mr. Boisvert, you have been fa cing some Mr. Boisvert: No, we have not received any legal difficulties in the Division scolaire recently at Ecole opinion, and we have not asked fo r one either. We think Laurier and Ecole Lavallee in South St. Vital. The that the fa ct that we cannot raise our own taxes will minister is offering to watch this fo r you but she is not sometimes create problems fo r us. We think it might in offering you any assurance in the bill. I wonder if you thissituation, but the way to resolve that might not be to perhaps might comment onthe difficulties that that poses. obtain that right. That might be other solutions, and we It leaves you in the same position that you are in with

have not looked at that problem specifically, but Bill 72 Ecole Laurier or perhaps potentially over the long· haul sort ofaccentuates maybe the situation more, and I think with Ecole Lavallee. thatwe will have to lookinto that situation so that we are Mr. Boisvert: WeU, if I could hear sometime somebody on an equivalent basis with other school divisions. would guaranteeus a school in South St. Vital I would be more than happy. There are very, very unique and big Ms. Friesen: I am still concerned about this protection problems we have in all of Winnipeg where w� have to that you are asking for from precedent, and the minister service all the fran�ais high schools as only one high said that she would be keeping an eye on it, but the school. Ourboundary isWinn ipeg, t:1e whole city, so we minister did not offer anything in this Bill. I wonder if have a transportation problem. We have a transportation you thinkthere are other ways that we can ensure on your problem in South St. Vital, and I believe that is being behalfthat these kinds of precedents will not take place. addressed.

Mr. Boisvert: I guess timewiU teU, and it is hard to tell, Certainly in Ecole Lavallee we Me bursting at the but certainly our inability to raise our own taxes puts us seams, andthere are long line-ups for our washrooms and in a very unique and maybe troublesome situation. I so on and so fort h. It is a very, very serious problem that think maybe we could o'Jtain that right or we could we are having there. We have three portable units and negotiate with the government maybe certain revenues, we were hoping to get three more, but when you get to a maybe theaverage ofJteprovince or something like that, situation where it is the school that is attached to units that would put us on an equal footing. I am just rather tha.'l. units attached to schools, maybe it is time to sometimes concerned that if a.'l arbitrator decides get a new school. something, to allow maybe a 2 percent raise, and we do not have the right to raise taxes, and if it is a precedent Certainly, our student population is south, way fa r setting decision, how are we going to address that south, of the concentration. We always advocate 676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

community schools where we have a very strong we are fa ced. I attended the Boundaries Review community involvement, so the school has to be at the Commission hearing in Morden and was, I believe in my centre fo r ourstudents, where the majority of the students naivete now, surprised by the obvious wall constructed are-and this is what we advocated in Laurier. We were by the panel members to effectively block all issues happy to be able to have our students from Laurier be raised in opposition to their own agenda. Even with able togo to Laurier and not to another school in another practically no prior knowledge of the issues at hand, I community. The Laurier school, I think, has been was well able to discerna plan that was not going to be addressed temporarily. They are going to be portable altered by any means. It thus came as no shock to me units. I thinkthat is theway that temporary situations are when the proposed Bill 72 emerged in its present fo rm. addressed. We hope that within a year, a year and a half, the Laurier situation will be looked at on a more So here I am, a relatively youngteacher, feeling rather permanent basis. I think these are the indications we cynicalabout ourg overnment and its manipulation of the have obtained until now. public to believe that what we have here is a true democracyrathec than a sort of disguised dictatorship. It Mr. Chairperson: Merci beaucoup et bon soir. seems to me that we as citizens have no real say about issues. We aremerely made to fee l as though we do. We Are anythere other presentations that anyone wishes to have a democraticright tospeak, to voice our opinions as make in French? If not, we will have 1he translation I am doing here, and to cast our votes, but that anything people go. They need not stay around a10d cost us all we sayis metwith actualconsideration I doubt. Whether money. or not this be the case, and whether or not you believe that this legislation is the best thing for Manitoba, I can We will now call on Erica Stecheson please-! might only assure you of one thing, I am one amongst a huge saymoney very well spent. You made it, Ms. Stecheson, numberof public school teachers who are already losing or areyou a replacement? I had been told 1that you might the drive and desire to be the best we can be in this not be able to make it this evening. profession.

Ms. EricaStecheson (Private '.::itizen): Oh, no, I have made it. It was tough, but I did it. Inmy secondyear I amalready wondering why I chose this field. I already find myself devalued by the Mr. Chairperson: You may begin your presentation government and its supporters. Are teachers not what I then. had always been told, what I had always believed, what I had always aspired to, that is the education of the Ms. Stecheson: I am speaking to you from a beginning children who are the future of this province, this country teacher'sperspective, and I am very nervous. This is the and this world? I believe I fee l that Bill 72 makes start of my secondyear teaching high school. CertifYing teachers a joke. AmI wrong? Perhaps. Perhaps all of us and actuallyfinding job a was a triumph fo r me and, I am teachersare wrong, spoiled and greedy. Yet I repeat that sure, fo r all others in the same situation. wroog or not,your actions against us are definitely going toaff ectus. Theyare going to affect us, not only through I entered the profession with gusto, full of ideas and our bargaining rights andour bank accounts, but also our ideals, because after all I was to have over I 00 students morale, and it is this final aspect that will affect the under my influence for a good part of th,e year. I had quality of education fo r our kids. I urge you to consider known things to be bad in education while: at university your decisions not only in terms of the almighty dollar especially regarding cutbacks in funding and hence in the but also in terms of the positive spiritwhich truly makes job market fo r teachers; nonetheless, I persisted and fo r education. Thankyou . obtained my degree. I believed I had .a lot to offer through teaching, and I still do. Mr. Chairperson: You certainly did not sound nervous.

Then along came the Dyck-Render commission report Mrs. Mcintosh: I concur, you made a very good fo llowed by the current proposed legislation with which presentation with a greatdeal of confidence. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677

You asked two questions, and I want to answer them and that say that teachers are greedy and spoiled and and then ask a question of you. You asked, are teachers beingdevalued, but they have the overall impression. It not always what you had been told? Then you go on to is everywhere; it is all around me; it is all through my make a description, and I say, yes, teachers are that, they school, all through my division that we are being are what you have been told. Then you say Bill 72 makes devalued. It is the morale. teachers a joke and ask ifyou are wrong. I say I believe you are wrong on that. You fo llowed up with a very I believe, it seems to me as though in the bill itself the strange statement. You say perhaps all of us teachers are division is being told what my perception is and what I wrong, spoiled and greedy, and you k:.tow, those words have been- have never been used by us, and I just wondered why-I know the audience is laughing, and I guess I am troubled Mrs. Mcintosh: Told? by that as well, because I think there is a substantial amount of supposition that concerns me. Ms. Stecheson: Yes, and what I have read is that the division is receiving an amount that it is allowed to I want you to know that this legislation did not come spend, its budget, and therefore is restricted within that. about through any mean spiritedness on anybody's part. The arbitrator must work along those lines to, how do I This legislation came out because the school trustees say this, give the division, give us our money. We have critiqued a system-not people, they critiqued a system­ to work within these preset guidelines. It just seems to and you must never ever assume that the critique of a me so narrow that what is going tohappen is, our salaries procedure or a process is a criticism of a person or a are going to go down, fo r one thing. Ourclass sizes are profession. going to go up,and our morale, whichhas already started to go down, is going to go down even further, and kids As teachers at your AGMs every year, you make dozens are going to be affected through that. of resolutions critiquing the system, critiquing the processes, critiquing the procedures. Government never Mrs. Mcintosh: Can I have a fo llow-up question? Is takes them as personal attacks on government; we there time? understand they are talking about a process. I am just saying that a critique of a system is not a criticism of a Mr. Chairperson: Yes, there is time, for your last person. question.

Could you indicate to me what there is in Bill 72 that Mrs. Mcintosh: Just a fo llow-up question, I indicate to you think is so damaging to teachers? you thatarbitrators arenot compelledto award within the stated ability to pay. Arbitrators are simply now being Ms. Stecheson: Well, I am going to sound really naive, asked to consider the arguments and to explain in their and do you know what? I am, but I will tryand answer decision why they have accepted or rejected them. this in just a second. I thinkyou have answered very eloquently what I think I am representing so many teachers and teachers who is the frustration. The morale is bad because people have fa r more experience thanI do, fa r more knowledge thinksomething is going tohappen. They have been told thanI do,but I am representing a lot of teachers who are by somebody that this is bad but, when I ask, so often I really quite ignorant to what is going on. What I am get the answer you have given, which is that theydo not trying torepresent here is morale, and it is just what I am know quite exactly what it is, but they fe el that they have saying is thatI donot really know a lot. I cannot sit here been devalued, and I would like to ask you one final and start quoting to you Bill 72, I cannot. You know question. what? I am not, I do not fe el that I am very well spoken in these areas, especially in the areas of legislation-yet, How canwe thenlet people like you, new teachers full someday-but what I am trying to represent is that I think of enthusiasm, know that we value you? Well, we have that this is the message that people are receiving and been saying it repeatedly all the way through. So much knowthey cannot go and say, well, this and that and that in this bill is a reflection of our value in terms of what we 678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 have been trying to provide fu r you in terms of fa irness, andI thinkother people do as well, people I have talked protection, unprecedented in any other bill, but the to whom I graduated with. message is not getting out. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Ms. Stecheson, fo r your presentation. I think what you are reflecting is the We do not have $2.9 million to advertis'e it. How can concernsof many, manyteachers that we have heard over we letyou know andco untermand the mes!;ages that you and over again of a government which does not support have been given, which I believe are fa lse? teachers. It is puzzling that the minister who raised the prospect of $20,000 starting salaries for teachers in the Ms. Stecheson: I have a lot of things going around my Render-Dyck inquiry- head right now, and I think Iwill have to oonfer with my organization on that. I cannot come out and answer that. Mn. Mcintosh: I did not. Ms. McGifford: Thankyou for your presentation, Ms. Ms. Friesen: -who said that real teachers should be in Stecheson. In your presentation, you SJpoke of your the classroom and not registering a democratic protest, growing eimui and despondence with the profession and and a Premier who says that teachers are paid $15,000 said � teacherswere fee ling the same. My experience toomuch- is, when people fee l like this about their profession they usually leave, and I suppose while some might well say, Mr. Penner: (inaudible)You are an MLA. That is why ifyou donot like it, get out, I thinksome of the things we people call us liars. have to consider are, first of all, the cost in personal discouragementwhich is veryhard to weigh and measure, Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman,the minister has always left of course, but also the cost of training. in-

I wonder ifyou could give us any idea about the costs Mr. Penner: That is why people call us liars. of training tobecome a teacher; not any idea, ifyou could be even specific about it, it would be helpful. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, we can show the member fo r Pembina- Ms. Stecheson: I do not quite understand quite what you areasking me, anidea asto how much I paid to go to * (2100) university? Mr. Chairperson: Can we please have order. Our Ms. McGifford: I am saying that becoming a teacher is process is designed- a very expensive endeavour and, ifa teacher leaves, it is really anexpensive endeavour because that Its just money Ms. Friesen: It is your credibility, not mine. thrown away. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Penner, please. Order, please. Ms. Stecheson: Yeah, oh, it sure is. Sony about that. The whole purpose of the process is to learn something That is exactly how I am fee ling. You know what? I fr om the presenters and to iisten to them. Would you mademore money as a part-time waitress than I am now, please pose a question, Ms. Friesen, and not engage in and the way it looks, I am not going to make any more debate, andwould members please co-operate in allowing money. I am struggling right now. I want to leave and I her to present a question. am telling you the truth. I know other people. There are a few first-year teachers in my school who are saying, Ms. Cerilli, do you have a point of order? why did I get into this? Point of Order But, no, I do not have the means to go back to university right now. I do not want to take out more Ms. Cerilli: I have a point of order, Mr.Chairperson. loansand, no, I amsure it is very expensive. I fe el stuck, WiD you pleasecall themembers to order when they deal October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 with the kind of attack that we just heard from the Point of Order member fo r-Mr. Penner. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.Chairperson, on apoint of order, I want Mr. Chairperson: It is not a point of order, but I did to put on the record that the Render-Dyck report does call Mr. Penner to order, and I hope he will co-operate, as indeed say or suggest that teachers would start earning a will all honourable members on this committee. salary at $20,000.

* * * Mr. Chairperson: Yes, this is not a point of order. It is a disagreement as to the fa cts. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Friesen to please pose your question. * * *

Ms. Friesen: The minister is leaving in Bill 72 the Mr. Chairperson: Please, Mr. Jonasson, begin your abilityto pay, which requires the arbitrator to look at the presentation. reductions that are being imposed upon school divisions every year, minus two, minus two, minus two, by this Mr. Dean Jonasson (Private Citizen): Thank you. I government, and I wonder if you can give us a sense of am sure glad I am not tryingto sell anything today. what theimplications of that are going to be fo r teachers' salaries as you anticipated it as a result of this bill. I would like to begin my comments by thanking the committee fo r allowing me the opportunity to share my Ms. Stecheson: I think everyone would agree that in ideas and concerns. Inpreparing fo r thispresentation, I light of that they are going to drop. I heard the rumour cameacross the writings of John Ralston Saul, the 1995 too about the $20,000. No, no, I know. I think it was Masseylecturer. Inhis book, The Doubter's Companion, just a rumour, but I also heard 25 as being more of a he hada lot to say about democracy, decisionmaking and guideline within which you are working in. I am making public participation. An involved, active citizenry is a 25 now andit is tough. It is tough, you know. I mean, I vital engine which propels our society, and that is why do not need to drivearound a Mercedes or anything, but such fo rums are so important. I do like to fe e; that I am worth more than a part-time waitress. Ralston Saul also offered a definition of public education. He wrote: Public education is the single most Mr. Chairperson: Thanks very much fo r your important element in the maintenance of a democratic presentation, Ms. Stecheson. system. Being a public school teacher, I fe lt inclined to agree. But it also got me thinking in terms of my The next presenter is Mr. Neil MacNeil. obligation to society in general. Is my role simply to produce graduates that can fill a target job market? Or, For those who are arriving now, I would just remind and this seems more likely, am I part of a broader the new arrivals that I had very early in the program endeavour which seeks to prepare young minds fo r the indicated it was contrary to the rules to engage in responsibilities of a democratic life? applause or participation in that way in the audience. The purpose isto allow people to make presentations and Giventhese lofty premises, let me rum my attention to the committee toengage in questioning the presenters and the subject of this committee, Bill 72, and its impact appreciate there being discipline exercised in that respect upon public education. As I neither teach in a vacuum, at the back. nor domy students learn in one, this bill and those which will fo llow have a direct impact on what occurs in my Is Neil MacNeil not here? Neil MacNeil, not being classroom. Cuts in service and support, as well as here, will go to the bottom of the list. Randy Bj ornson. alterations tothe wayteachers and boards problem solve, RandyBj ornson not responding, Randy Bj ornson will go affectclass room climate. Ultimately, these will also have to thebottom of the list. Dean Jonasson. Mr. Jonasson, aneff ect on how p&I�ts and the public view what occurs you may begin your presentation. in public education. 680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

My understanding of the bill is that it will drastically sense of co-operation and trust which is vital to the alter how teachers, school boards and thte government learningprocess is then undermined. will approach contract negotiations. The details of this will undoubtedly be the subject of briefs from other AfterBill 72, howcan I encouragestudents my to work members of the teachers' society. I trus1t the teachers' out their disagreements if in the fo llowing weeks school societyto research and debate these details. That is why life is disrupted because the teachers and board cannot I pay my dues. I trust the school board to implement work out theirdisa greementand are fo rced into accepting budgets andpolicies which benefit students. That is why imposed solutions?own My parents andteachers used to I agree to work within their contract. I trust the call this a gap between what is said and what is done. governmentto valueeducation and present reforms which Such a gap undermines credibility. reflect a changingworl d. That is why I participate in the electoral process, although I must confess, I do not recall Here is another gap, the one between obligation and the current government offering Bill 72 or any other ideology. Our provincial government has an obligation proposed educational reforms in its platform during the to provide public education. Its current ideology is that last election. of debtreduction and survival fo r the strong. The reality is the removal of $43.5 million from the public However, outof Bill 72comes a different way of doing education. The reality in my classroom is a dramatic business, andI use the term business becauseit appears alteration on how my program is delivered. I teach a to me it isa businessapproach to problem solving which classof students withspecial needs, mostly students with is being imposed upon me. Imagine how my classroom moderate to severe cognitive handicaps. While my would operate if I sped upthe problem-solving process, ideologyand expertiseinf orm me that the greatest benefit allowed one par':yto determine when the J�rocess could to the students COOleS froman educational experience that move to a decision phase and limited the scope of the is age appropriate, that provides for peer integration and decisions to favourone particular party. What would I be thatalso allows fo r practical, hands-on experience in the teaching my students? Perhaps that decisions are more community and workplace, my obligation has changed. important than the mutual benefit of all involved, that I am obliged to reduce both integrated and community those involved probably could not be truslted to make a experiences due to a gradual reduction in support to decision on their own and that when things were not students with special needs. workingout, excluding others makes the decision easier. Governments have passed their obligation for support At the beginning of this process of change, there was onto school boards, which are hamstrung. But talk of the government allowing strikes and lockoutsas questioning parents have not gone to government nor, I a. possible problem-solving tool, and I was pleased and believe, to the boards themselves. The parents of the encouraged when the government listened to parents, students that I deal with come to me to ask me why their boards and teachers and let this idea evaporate. son is not included in a drama program or a regular phys Democracy in action fo r mutual benefit. Now we are ed class; why their daughter is not able to try awork debating othermeasures which are being proposed, again experience at a local restaurant instead of being part of a to save money, but also to cr�te negative relations group transported to a sheltered workshop outside the between teachers and boards. community;or why the level of support just keeps going down. In my seven years as a teacher, I have witnessed and worked through several situations where acrimonious * (2 1IO) negotiations spilled into the halls and classrooms. For example, recent disputes between support personnel and What should I say to them? I cannot tell them that our local board affected the climate in the chl1ss and in the their kids do not count, because they do. Should I schoolin general. Students asked me why certain school encourage parents to phone their trustee? Their MLA? personnel were angry or why theyhad to be withholding Should I suggest how they should vote in the next services. A school is in some ways like a village. The election? Should they besendin g their children to private stressof one group of villagers affects the others, and the school or no school? Ideology versus obligation. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 681

One theme of Bill 72 is theemp hasis on school boards' sophisticated public accounting system is that we cannot ability to payfo r public education. To my mind, this was afford to educate properly our citizenry. We know that oncean obligationof theboards and governments, to pay this is a suicidal and lunatic policy position. What we for the education of the coming generation. Now it is are doing, therefore, is passively accepting the conclusion limited by an ability to pay, a significant phrase, given of lunatics. Underfunding of public schools and the the restrictions put on generating adequate funds through passing of an unfair bargaining structure may help to local and provincial taxation. balance the provincial ledgers in the short term. The long-term results may be tragic and ultimately more So whose obligation is it to pay fo r education? Bill 72 costly. Thankyou. and other related measures would shift a greater obligation onto teachers. Both support dollars and my Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jonasson. own wage would be diverted to paying offa provincial debt that education in itself did not create. The cost and Mrs. Render: Yes, thank you for your presentation. benefits of education cannot be measured in terms of Thereare a numberof things Ltat you have given that are dollars, because it is not designed to create dollars or incorrect, and thinkI this is part of the problem that there goods. The service provided by a public education to are a lot of mistaken ideas of what the report said and society is so enormous and pervasive that only through what the bill is saying. This is my first opportunity to foolish or narrow accounting practices could figures correct the record. actually emerge. Cut education and create an artificial pool of money. Maybe that money could service a The member for Radisson, Ms. Cerilli, stated thatthe government debt or pay fo r a resulting increase in the Dyck-Render report talked about a $20,000 drop. I demand fo r social services or adult education or police or would just like to quote frompage 18, recommendation the inestimable costs of public ignorance and apathy. 2: We recommend that school boards should not roll back teachers salaries. So I would ask the member to My final observation is one that I hope you will find pointout tome and clarifY and correct therecord, because amusing. Through Bill 72, it would seem that certain that is not correct. Regretfully, these are some of the aspects of my working conditions may no longer be things that are going out that is making it very hard for subject to arbitration. In other words, they would be teachers. have You enough stress. You have a hard job. determined solely by the school board. Since the board's You do not need to have things put on your back which hands are tied by budget restrictions imposed by the are not correct. government, in essence, these would be controlled by government. Things like where I teach, the size of my Now let me just move to something that you said, and class, when I take a break or do recess, these would be I am not too sure whether I heard you correctly� determined by the government, a group that I do not directly work fo r. Yet, I have no say as to what Point of Order conditionsthe government will work under, fo r example, when it takes its recesses, despite the fact that the Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson. government works for me. Pemaps I was mistaken. It was actually the reference to a prospect of $20,000 was in one of the other Strangeold world, is it not. government's education documents, the Enhancing Accountabilitydocument. So I do stand corrected, but that I thank you fo r allowing me to share my ideas in your wasone of theproposal s, and it was presented in the time and environment and I invite you to share yours in context of the kind of discussion that we are having fo r my classroom. Come and visit the citizenry of tomorrow teacher arbitration. as soon and as often as possible. Mr. Chairperson: As I ruled earlier, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute as to the facts. I would like to close by returning to The Doubter's Companion on education: the conclusion of our * * * 682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October28, 1996

Mr. Chairperson: Would you pose your question, Ms. and 1995 when the fed eral revenue received by the Render? province for the Department of Education and Training declined by more than 40 percent that our increase Mrs. Render: Thankyou, Ms. Cerilli. But, again, I just provincially to the schools was an 8 percent increase in want to make sure that ifyou are going to be angry, you that period of time? are going to be angry about facts and not about things which are not happe:ling. Now, I think I heard you say Mr. Jonassoo: I believeyou mentioned that before, yes, that- oryou talked about offioadingfrom fe deral to provincial responsibilities. I guess the theme of my brief was not Mr. Jonasson: I am not angry. necessarily dollars and cents, but on the one hand a differencein philosophy and on the other hand the reality Mrs. Render: Okay, actuallyyour presenta tion was very thatdespite the government's very good intentions, there reasonable. I think I heard you say recess and some of is in fac t less support coming to my classroom. I am not the other things were now going to be determined by sure who is to blame, but I know where the obligation government No, thatis not so. This will b1e the trustees, lies. the schooldivision. So,jr st- Mrs. Mcintosh: I appreciate that. Mr. Chairperson: Point of order, Mr. Kowalski. Ms.Friesen: Mr. Jonasson, I am not sure if you told us ?oint of Order which division you are from or which school, and obviouslyit is up to you whether you want to tell us, but Mr. Kowalski: Yes. He has presented in his allotted I am interested in knowing ifyou do. amountof time , and what I am hearing from Ms. Render is debate takingaway from this opportunity to question Mr. Chairperson: We are downto the last minute, Ms. this presenter. I do not think it is fa ir. So is it my Friesen. understanding theproper role fo r the committee members is to ask questions of the presenters about their Ms. Friesen: I particularly liked the section of your presentation? reportwhich talked about the school as a community and the way in which each part affects the other, and I Mr. Chairperson: Indeed, that is the purpose, and wondered ifyou could tell us a little more about your thank you fo r bringing the attention of the committee comments on the bottom of page 2 about the impact of members to that fact. funding cuts on your classroom and your school.

* * * Mr. Jonasson: Well, certainly, as I said, I have been fo rtunate enough to be teaching in the same program fo r Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, you invite:d me to your six of my seven years, and in that time I have seen my classroom and I would like you to know that I visit class size increase and certainly the needs of the student classrooms regularly between sessions several times a also increase. Given that, I have seen the amount of week. If you want to issue an invitation, I would be support in terms of paraprofessionals, money available delighted to come. fo r newmateri als, things like that, decrease. It is getting harder and harder to maintain a program with those Mr. Jonasson: I have. constraints on there, and they are very real. I am not making it up, and it is not based onany kind of imaginary Mrs. Mcintosh: Okay. Thank you. But I mean, I have accounting. It is very real . to get your name and where you are and so on. I do not know what schoolyou are at or anything. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jonasson fo r your presentation this evening. The question I have fo r you is this, you talked about chronic underfimding. Are you aware that b1;:tween 1990 Mr. Jonasson: Thankyou fo r listening. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 683

Mr. Chairperson: Lawrie Kyle, please. Lawrie Kyle. In terms of real buying power, teachers have been Lawrie Kyle, not responding, will go to the bottom of the regressing since 1980, for our increases have not kept list. Nancy Trush. pace with the cost of living, unlike those employee groups with a COLA clause in theircontr acts. Frankly, Point of Order I amvery tired of this government presenting teachers as a self-centred, money-hungry bunch of parasites. Ifthe Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, on a point of order, I minister wishes to know what the government might do would just like to clarify fo r the committee and fo r the to promote teachers in a positive light, perhaps they presenters that when we raise a point of order, the time, might stop publishing documents that state there is no similar as in the House, is not to be deducted from the evidence to show teachers with a master's degree do any presenter's time allotment-[interjection] That is right. betterjob than those with a mere Bachelor of Education. Thank you. Perhaps ifthe Minister of Education wishes to fm d the money to advertise teacher virtues, she might reroute

* * * monies now dedicatedto the advertising of the Telephone System. Ms. Nancy Trush (Private Citizen): Members of the Legislative Committee-! would prefer to circulate them I believe it was in the discussionpaper that the brilliant after, if that is all right-fellow educators, concerned revelation that teachers' salaries were the main budgetary taxpayers,firstly I would like to extend my thanks for the item was made. I would be very upset ifwe were not, opportunity to raise my concerns regarding Bill 72 this just as I would be upset ifofficers' salaries were not the evening. major expense of the police budget. I do not apologize for the $52,000 that I earn. I consider it to be fa ir I comebefore this committeeas a public school teacher compensation for thevery demanding critical and job that in my 30th year of teaching, the first two being in I do, a job whicli in recent years has evolved to include Evergreen School Division and the remainder with many facets of community health, social services and Transcona-Springfield. Just as an aside, Eric Stefanson youth corrections mandates, the difficulties of which are was the student council president the year I began compounded by shrinking resources as a resU;lt of teaching, so there is something to be said for public provincial fundingcuts . education. Proponents of this legislation argue that abilityto pay Retirement for me is within my grasp, so I speak not on is what drives private sector wages. Ifthis were true, my own behalf but on behalf of the next generation of why are huge wage increases not being awarded to our educators, and more importantly, on behalf of the public national bank employees as the banks record billion­ school students who will be shortchanged by this dollar profits? discriminatory legislation. I also come before this committee as a fo rmer card carrying Conservative Party My husbandis anelectrical contractor, and I attempt to member who no longer finds myself able to support a draw a business analogy to the ability-to-pay clause. If government that seems bent on destroying our public my husband wished to purchase a three dollar electrical school system through shrinking annual grants and the box from the supplier and told him he had the ability to introduction of such mean spirited and biased legislation pay only two dollars for it, what do you think the chances as Bill 72. are that the supplier would be forcec: to offer his product for what my husband was ab1e to pay? In actuality, my * (2 120) husband would be free to search fo r an inferior-quality product for his two dollars, and the supplier in tum The ability-to-pay clause makes a mockery of the would take his electricalbox toa more affluentcontractor collectivebargaining process,which has served Manitoba who could pay the fixed and reasonable rate. If this teachers and taxpayers well since its inception. Binding legislation passes, I have no doubt in my mind that our arbitration has repeatedly resulted in fair and equitable most creative, gifted talentedand teachers will fo llow the awards comparable to thosenegotiated in other divisions. doctors' beaten path to take their product elsewhere. 684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

My daughter isin hergra duating year at the University I eagerly await the day that a private school will be of Manitoba's Faculty of Education. There are eight established with the fo llowing as its entrance criteria: sections of students in their final year. In her section Students must possess or exhibi� one or more of the alone, eight students have withdrawn sirace September fo llowing conditions: standardized test scores at least citing the fa ct that there is no future fo 1r educators in two gradelevels below graueplacement; attention deficit Manitoba given the current government's antiteacher, disorder; fe tal alcohol syndrome; autism; Tourette's antipublic school agenda. How are we going to attract syndrome; Down's syndrome; pervasive developmental bright, energetic young.people to entera profession where disorder; living in a foster placement; previous involve­ theyare virtually guaranteed never to receive a pay raise? ment in youth court; et cetera. The list is endless. With the collapse of the public school system, who will meet This is the same government that suggc�sted last year the needs of these children? thatperhaps a referendwn should be held to determine if the taxpayers fe lt teachers deserved a pay raise. I am I was also very intrigued by the fact that parents of quite prepared to submit my paycheque to that type of students who attend some private schools are given public ratification ifother public sector employees must receipts fo r charitable donations in excess of $1 ,000 each do the same, including our illustrious ML.As. I believe, year. Does this mean that all of their tuition each year is ifl recallco rrectly, thatit was a 17 percent pay raise they not needed to educate their child? Ifthis is so, why the were awarded last year through a controversial method increase in support? called binding arbitration. Perhaps Mr. Reimer could have kept more than hisnine staffif he had forgone his Learning conditions in schools in my division are on 17 percent wage increase. the decline. I would sunnise them to be so in other divisions aswell but I speak only of those circumstances Similar governmental mtttallves with respect to with which I have first-hand experience. education were taken recently in New Zealand. Today they are advertising for over 600 teachers to meet the As the nwnber of teachers is reduced, class sizes demands of their population, this a direct result of increase, reducing the amount of contact time with makingthe occupation so unappealing that they were not students. Funding fo rmulas which dictate the level of able to train sufficient nwnbers of teachers to meet their support fo r special needs students have been amended demand. Surely we can profit from this experience rather resulting in more of these students in large classes than setting ourselves up to replicate it. without the benefit of paraprofessionals. According to the guidelines, Down's syndrome students no longer Bill 72 will result in the ghettoization of school qualifY fo r provincial support. If they receive para help, divisions as some have more ability to pay than others. it is fundedthrough the local levy. The most challenging students willleast havethe capable educators, virtually making it impossibk fo r them to Option courses such as draftingand computer science break the failure cycle. By providing the mechanism by havebeen dropped if they did not have the magic number which funding of public schools can be dc�reased, this of 25 registrants, with the administration saying they bill signals the demise of an institution that since couldno longer afford to offer option courses with fe wer Confedemtion hasenabled even the poorestof the poor to thanthat enrollment A student last week shared with me rise above an otherwise bleak landscape. that she was dropping out because the only course she was interested in, elementary school practicum, was Public school has, on the whole, allowed people to cancelled because there were only 16 registrants. For participate in the learning process regardless of race, someone who plans to enter a training program as a wealthor religion. I am bothered that amidst this climate daycare worker, this course is vital and would mean the of slashing provincial funding to public schools beyond differencebetween a high school graduate and a dropout. what can be called bare-bones funding, increases to private school funding are still fo rthcoming. It seems There is significantimpact economic to either churning that this government intends to privatize more than our outless capable graduatesor increasing our dropout rate. telephone system. Students are taking introductory courses and are unable October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 685

to take the advanced level because the decreased budget Ourjob as politicians and educators is to maintain and dictates that the course can no longer be offered. Some enhance this system, not sabotage, undermine and courses have no textbooks available, and in others there invalidate it. Thank you very much. is only one class set, so if there are multiple classrooms taking thecourse, students can no longer take texts home Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Trush. to do homework. Mrs. Mcintosh: I have threepoints to discuss with you. Mr. Chairperson: Your time is up for your 1 0-minute One, I should indicate, you say, you are waiting for the presentation unless there is leave grantedto encroach on day fo r a private school to be established to do that. your question and answer. [agreed] There is a school thatdoes that, that takes only children such as you have described. It is called the Laureate * (2 130) Academy, andthey take children that parents fm d they are not getting satisfuction fromthe public system. They take Ms. Trush: They must be leftin the classroom fo r other them at Laureate Academy and the parents pay for their students to use. Thus, parents' complaints that students special needs children to have the:r learning problems cannot do homework, we are unable to deal with that, addressed. because there simply are not texts available, and parents can no longer help their students without them. New Secondly, I want to ask you this question and then I curricula are being implemented before support have one more and that is it. You made reference to the documents are in place. Are teachers adequately trained way in which the MLAs were reimbursed. You probably to deliver them? Students are working in unsafe knowthat cabinet minist ers have not had any adjustment industrial arts and science labs because enrollment is to their salaryfo r 15 years. Ifyou would like to go back beyond recommended levels to ensure safe ty. to 15 years ago, you may then be able to get a 14 percent raise too, but I do not thinkyou would like that. Theseare but a fe w of the ways that cuts to provincial fundingrecent and government initiatives have impacted But may I ask ifyou are aware of how that wage was on my school alone. It is not the fat but the flesh of the determined and that I have offered the exact same model programs that is being trimmed. with the exact same people to the teachers, and they throw up their hands in horror and say, oh, God, no, do not do thatto us. It was David Northcott, Valerie Wake, This legislation makes it painfully obvious that this a farmer's wife and a northern rural councillor, who set government does not recognize thevalue of an educated our salaries, and Wally Fox-Decent, who set our salaries. society. The ability-to-pay clause is destined to create a We all agreed, all 57 of us, including the members have and a have-not system of public education where opposite, to accept without question whatever they told only the divisions with strong tax bases will attract the us to do before theyeven began their deliberations. Now, best qualified personnel. Divisions which cannot offer ifyou want that, I will gladly call up I:avid Northcott and fa ir salaries to hard working, devoted and dedicated everybody else, get them together, have them go around teachers will not attract and retain those individuals. the province and ask the questions. If you agree in Thus an equal opportunity for education will no longer advance to accept without question what they say and if exist. you have not had a raise in 15 years, they may too give you a 14 percent increase. Do you want that? Inconclusion, I fee l very strongly that Bill 72 must not be passed in its present fo rm as it will further erode Ms. Trush: The point I am trying to make here is that- teacher morale and destroy the quality of public education in Manitoba as we once knew it. Now more than ever Mrs. Mcintosh: Do you want that? That is my before, Manitoba requires a public school system which question. will develop a highly skilled labour force that can be competitive in our global market, as well as one which Ms. Trush: The point I am trying to make is that will mold caring, civic-minded citizens. binding arbitration was working very well fo r the 686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 teachers of Manitoba as well, and I am wondering why Due to the continual government cutbacks in funding this government is determined to introduce: and promote fo r education, boaras have stopped hiring experienced labour strife where it does not exist. teachers for one reason, to save money. How did boards get backed into a corner like this? This is the first time Mr. Chairperson: We have eight seconds. we as teachers have experience:d the devaluing of our experience and education. I attended the graduation Mrs. Mcintosh: M:' second question to you is, what is ceremonies at our sma:i-town high schools last June and there in Bill 72 that you can point to that will causethe watched Grade 12 ;r.aients proudly receive their labour strife? diplomas. Their education opportunities were well documented and the results of the provincial Mr. Chairperson: Time is up. I am sorry. Thanks fo r examinatioospositively reported, but those people do not your presentation. realize that their education system fo r their children is Dan Lemieux. Danl..eJ>"o ieux. Dan Lemieux, not being crumbling. The opportunities and teachers are just not here, will go to the bottom of the list. Gail Eliasson. there for the upcoming classes as they were fo r the You may begin your presentation, Ms. Eliasson. outgoing grads. Teachers know this is happening, the public is just beginning to realize it. Teachers fee l Ms. Gail Eliasson(Everg reenTea chers' Association): undone by the government and Bill 72. We have Thank you very much. I have been teaching in the committed our lives to education and now flnd our province cf Manitoba fo r almost 30 years at a rural education and experience is not important. schoo.l division in the Interlake. I am requesting you withdraw Bill 72. PeterDyck told the teachers in Interlake last week that he does not believe teachers are paid too much. He My objections include theso-called ability to pay. This would not say why Bill 72 has been structuredto curtail overshadowsin everything this bill. Ourdivision has had ourcollective bargaining process. Ourwages are not out a preview of how unfair this type of thinking is. of line with the rest of the country, and he agreed with Evergreen Teachers' Association had signeffhere, that they are going to have Mrs. Mcintosh: The beginningpart of the question is, things like ability to pay considered in their collective Ms. Cerilli indicated that the grievance fa irness clause agreement bargaining and there are other issues fo r the wasa trade-offfo r the ability to pay, and I say absolutely school division, like having to bear more of the cost for no. The ability-to-pay clause, in and of itself, has fo ur conciliation and that. But the trade-offis that now you out of the five fa ctors in there desired by teachers. The are going to be able to grieve issues that in many cases one part of that is, the arbitrator would be forced to you were not otherwise able to grieve. I am wondering if consider the school divisions' need to retain and recruit you believe that thatbeneficial isa or fa ir trade-offand if qualified teachers. In the past, arbitrators would put on you think that is goingto be good for education? anaward on a division and the division would say, well, that is too high, we are going to have to accept it but we Ms. Eliasson: Well, we have-I cannot see why we will just let teachers go to make up the difference. Now would have to trade off something that we already have the arbitrator has to consider job retention. in our collective agreement. . Do you thinkthat is goodor do you think that is bad? Mr. Chairperson: Did you want to complete your Would you like to see it taken out? That is the one response? question.

Ms. Eliasson: No, I think I said it. Mr. Chairperson: Maybe one at a time.

Mr. Chairperson: Sounded like an answer to me. Mrs. Mcintosh: Okay. Would you like to see that taken out? Mrs. Mcintosh: I should indicate first of all that this is not a trade-off fo r anything. The abili ty-to-pay-clause Ms. Eliasson: Okay. You refer to that it is not a trade­ contains four out of five fa ctors that were ones that off, that abilityto pay and the grievance process are not teachers wanted . Do you think it would be good, and I trade-offs? believe it would be good, do you agree with me that having an arbitrator fo rced to consider the need of the Mrs. Mcintosh: No. division to retain and recruit qualified teachers rather thanjust simply lay themoff because their wages are too Ms. Eliasson: They are not trade-offs. Okay. I am not high is a good thing or a bad thing and, again, I just sure what the fo ur out of five fa ctors are that we like. wanted some clarification. Mrs. Mcintosh: But you say they are immoral. You If thisprocess is not working for you locally, you have must know what theyare. said you have it, it has worked in the past, but right now you have a situation where it is not being fa ir. Would Ms. Eliasson: I thought that they were just- 688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Mrs. Mcintosh: WeD, she is here protestilllg it. Do you year, and this year in Junethey decided thatwe could do not know what they are? with one and so now I am alone as a teacher in that intervention centre. Tha! is just one example. Mr. Chairperson: I would ask the honow·able minister not to badger the presenter. I can take some more examples. I have a colleague who has to go between the twoschool s, elementary and Mrs. Mcintosh: Well, I am just puzzled, very puzzled. the high school. She has to go three times across on two days of the cycle and two times across on the other fo ur. Ms. Friesen: Again, continuing on the ability-to-pay We have had five teaching positions cut just in our issue, I think the minister indicated at the beginning of schooland it isdue to the inability fo r our division to get this session that she is prepared to remove the word any kind of real funding fo r education. They have-I can "primarily" and that this would have th,e consensual go on I haveanother colleague who drives between one support of both teachers and trustees. I wonder ifyou town and another at noon. We share guidance couldcomme nt on, first of all, whether it does have your counsellors between towns. We have a music teacher consent, and what you think of the clause without that? who teaches in three different sites, that goes from How much does it modifY it or change it? Winnipeg Beaclt toGimli to the other Gimli school. This all takes a toll on the teachers that have to do these jobs. Ms. Eliasson: These are very technical questions and I assumejust that-1 heardabout thechange this evening as I have never quite seen it-I love my job. I love I � here. I amassuming that it opens up the scope of working with children, and I have never seen teachers the dealings between the board and the teachers. The fee ling so badly as they are right now. problemthat I have seenbehind all this is the� reduction-I know it hashappened in ourschool division--the inability We are once removed from the city. We are not in to move anywhere with no money. That i£1 the concern the-weare in the mid-Manitoba area and usually we can wehave in ourdivision, thatwe are unable r€:ally to move survive, but not this time. anywhere. Yes, we have the grievance process, and we have worked it through for fa ir and reasonable teaching * (2 1 50) conditions, but we are unable to address the job problem of our teachers having to do so many subjects in one Ms. Mihychuk: My question is going to be a little bit classroomand somany jobs thatbef o�e were done by two more geneml andnot specific, but I am going to throw in or three teachers. This is why I came all the way in grievance, becausethe minister seems to have a particular tonight, totalk about this, because I know what it is like penchant togrievances . My introduction to this question in my divisionand I know that we have to address this in is, in the whole scenario, we have heard about school a correct fa shion. divisions and we have heard about teachers being expected to cover those losses, basically. Do you fee l Could I you thento tell us a little more Ms. Friesen: ask that the province has an onus that, when at a time of about that? You have talked about the� increasing surplus, building a surplus andlooking at other priorities, workload. Could you give us a sense of the changes in there should be a method fo r school divisions to throw class size, the changes in the composition of the class, those contracts right back to the provincial government? whether or not you have lost courses or options fo r students? Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Eliasson, it looks like time for a yes or a no or a maybe. Ms. Eliasson: Yes, I can. I will just start offwith my assignment from-last year I was teaching in an intervention centre, which is an alternative learning site, Ms. Eliasson: Well, I have always thought that which hasclose to 50 students enrolled in it that are from educationwas a provincial responsibility, so I guess that age 16 up, usually children that cannot cope in the is my answer. regular school system or are in trouble with the law. There were two teachers in that intervention centre last Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Eliasson. ------

October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 689

Ernie Schiman. You may begin your presentation. base their work primarily on the board's current funding They will circulate your written submission. revenues and current income from taxation. This will lead to a system that is weighted in favour of the school Mr. Ernie Schiman (Intermountain Teachers' boards. It is worth noting that at least one prominent Association): Mr. Chairman, just a couple of arbitrator has declared ability to pay to be a totally one­ observationsthat I have before I begin into the text of my sided intrusion into the arbitration stage of negotiations. presentation. This is nota fuirand just system of collective bargaining.

I fo und it rather interesting sitting at the back of the Secondly, and very importantly, as you have heard room for the last fo ur hours and listening to a lot of tonight and on a number of occasions, this is going to presentations, a lot of very good presentations being lead to a greater disparity between the so-called rich and made. It is obvious from my humble point of view that poor school divisions in our province. How will this there are a lot of problems still existing with this contribute to equal educational opportunities fo r all proposed legislation. We have seen some amendments students across the entire province? We seea change in being put fo rward by the minister. We heard some thedefinition of ability to pay or that you have taken out suggested amendments from MAST. There are a number the word "primarily." There is still a big problem with of other concerns that are still out there. This is a that defmition. It is still based on current taxation and proposed bill that has obviously been run through much current funding from the province. too quickly. There needs to be more thought. There needsto bemore input. I echo the comments that Cordell This will certainly not be free and collective Barker made earlier in the evening. I strongly suggest bargaining. As stated earlier, we are very proud of our that the government withdraw this bill, go back to the system in Intermountain. If this ability-to-pay clause drawing board. becomes law, the future is very uncertain.

I am presenting this brief on behalf of the Past arbitration awards in our schoolhave been, in our Intermountain Teachers' Association. Our division No. view, fa ir and reasonable. Monetary parts have always 36 has schools in three towns, Gilbert Plains, Grandview been in line with trends across the province and other and Roblin, with approximately 1,200 students and a items, such as a duty-free lunch hour, have definitely been staffof 73 teachers. Ours, we believe, is a fm e division justified. fo r young people to get a sound, fundamental education. It hasearned that reputation in the eyes of many because Our second concern is with the timing of collective of a durable partnership of teachers, administrators and bargaining in some of the newtime lines. We are. a small school trustees. It hasearned thatreputation also because rural school division and carrying on collective of the unified purpose and hard work of its school bargaining during the months of May and June is not a teachers. good idea in a rural school division. We see, and again Bill 72, along with some of the other bills presently I hear tonight about the change in the start of before the Legislature, will have a detrimental effect on negotiations, that this is perhaps possible and both education in Intermountain fo r years to come. In parties must agree. I am not sure. That does seem to be addition, we are fa ced with continued funding cuts that a move in the right direction there. we have heard aboutto night and other proposed changes as well, such as the proposed change to teacher salary We still are fa cing problems with short time lines. As classification system. I understand it, thathas not been changed. I have been in a negotiation process in thepast. This is not enough time Teachers in Intermountain over the last number of to carry on complete and meaningful negotiations. months have had a number of concerns about Bill 72. Obviously, our most serious concern is with the ability to As I stated at the outset, this has been thrown at us fa r pay. We believe that the present system that we have too quickly. We have been operating under fu.e present been working on fo r many years has been working well. systemfor over 40 years and it has worked well, why the Under Bill 72, until fo ur hours ago, the arbitrator had to sudden change, why the need suddenly to make such a 690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

change in a big hurry? We are very concenned when we ask you about theeff ects of cuts to education and ifyou see a government making a number of changes to the could give us some information about the effects to your educational system at thesame timeand und(:r some short classroom, to your school and to your division. time lines. Mr. Schiman: Certainly. We have fe lt the effects as Someof thethings that are currently facing teachers in well. Maybe not as greatly as some other divisions but Intermountain include a variety of curriculum changes; wehave fe lt themas well We haveteachers that are now standardized provincial tests; increased extracurricular forced to teach in areas where they did not teach before. workloads due to fe w staff; the prospect of teacher As I stated in my presentation, because of fe wer total evaluation being based on student results and staff, of course that means their extracurricular load standardized tests; recertification every five years; becomes heavier fo r the people that are left. The changes to our salary schedules; and of course, the community expects us to carryon the existing programs, normal challenges and pressures fa cing the classroom and that makes it very difficult that we carry on our teacher. Finally, we add Bill 72 into the mix, whereby regular teaching load and we now have a heavier teachers operate under a new set of rules �or collective extracurricular program as well. bargaining that is not fa ir or reasonable. Ms. Friesen: The minister has indicated at the Not surprisingly, ourteachers fee are ling overwhelmed, beginningshe believes that there is some teacher support frustrated, pessimistic about the future of 1::ducation in fo r this bill, particularly with the amendments that she is Intermountain across the province. We have discussed bringing. I wondered ifyou were able to speak on those our concerns a numberof times with both of the MLAs, andto give us asense as to how far those amendments go Stan Struthers and the Honourable Len D1�rkach, who to meeting any of the teachers' concerns. represent the area covered by our school division. Mr. Schiman: Firstly, in terms of the supportfo r the As I said at theoutset, Bill 72 obviously has a number Bill 72 before six o'clock tonight and the amendments of serious problems, only some ofwhich I have touched that were announced, I have not heard any in my on tonight. It will definitely have a negative impact on discussions with teachers. That certainly is not the case. education in Manitoba. It should not become law. In terms of the amendments that the minister is proposing, well, taking out the word "primarily" is a step Ms. McGiffo rd: Thank you very much, Mr. Schirnan, in theright direc tion, but we still have a problem. There fo r your presentation. You said over and ovc:r again that is still a big problem there with the ability to pay as it is you, and I gather teachers in Intermountain, believe that defined. That is the problem, and the scales are still like the government is passing this bill through or is putting thisas aresult. Soit is a small step in the right direction. pressure on us to pass this bill through fa r too quickly. * (2200) Why doteachers thinkthere is such a push to expedite the passage of this legislation? Ms. Friesen: There seems to be a huge gap, to put it mildly, between what teachers are saying and some Mr. Schiman: Well, it is a very good question. I sure trustees are saying; what parents are saying about wish we .knew It just seems totally unreasonable that we conditioos in the classroom across Manitoba. It does not are moving at this speed-a system, as I said, that has seemto be getting through tothis government. You have worked fo r many, many years. Rather int(:resting, we talked to a cabinet minister, people here have presented. have one side to the process-MAST who is saying we Doyou have any sense of why that is happening or what have some problems here and, by golly, all of a sudden we can do to at least ensure that the government really we have some changes being proposed. understands what is happening in the classroom?

Ms. McGifford: The other thing-I wanted to thankyou Mr. Schiman: That is a tough question. I really do not fo r driving sofa r. It must bevery important fbr you to be know. We have tried our best. We did it through the here tonight, and we appreciate it, but I also wanted to Dyck-Render report last year. I do not know. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 691

Mrs. Mcintosh: I will defer to Mr. Pallister because he withdrawn. If this bill was withdrawn and you are has been waiting fo r quite a while. concerned about inequity, do you think teachers have in general, either your organizations or just individually, Mr. Pallister: Thank you, sir, fo r I think a very changed their viewpoint about province-wide bargaining? reasonable presentation. Yourefer to the ability to pay as your principal concern ifI am correct, in your written Mr. Schiman: That one is a difficult one to answer at brief, and you say that the proposed amendment is a thispoint because of everything that has been happening move in the right direction. I just would like a little bit andall thecha nges. I donot know whatthe reading is on of clarification specifically in terms of the ability to pay. that at this point. I do not think I could give an honest Doyou believe that it is legitimate to consider the current answer there regarding that at this point. economic situation in our province, in the school division, in the district, or not? Do you believe that it is Mr. Kowalski: If the bill was withdrawn, other than relevant to consider the comparisons with other going back to exactly the way it was, do you believe employees in the public and private sector in your region teachers and school trustees could change the system in of the province in terms of arriving at an ability to pay? any way from what it is now? Do you believe those fa ctors should be considered or do you not? Mr. Schiman: I have no idea, but I think it is worth a shot. Mr. Schiman: It looks like you have got about six questions in that one question. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much fo r your presentation, Mr. Schiman. Mr. Richard Maslanka. Mr. Pallister: Well, no, I will restate it. I do not want Richard Maslanka. Richard Maslanka, not being here, it to be confusing, sir. will go to the bottom of the list. Kathleen Burt. Kathleen Burt. Kathleen Burt, not being here, she will Mr. Schiman: The one area I can touch on right away. go to thebottom ofthe list GeoffRob son. GeoffRobson By looking only at that area, that causes a problem. If is here. You may begin your p:esentation, Mr. Robson. you are going tobe looking comparabat le salaries and so on, and again we run into that ghettoization that we Mr. Geoff Robson (Morris-Macdonald Teachers' talked about earlier that you heard from the presenters Association): Thank you. Much of what I am going to earlier, you cannot just look in at that one area. That is say has already been said, so I will not read from the going to hurt the poorer regions all across the province. document since you can all read it on your own. What I That is bad. That is not good at all. did want to touch upon were just a fe w ideas, some of which are in the document, others that have come up as Mr. Pa16ster. Thatbeing said, sir, then what would you the evening has gone along. suggest in terms of a productive and positive suggestion on your part would be- First, I want to make it clear that I am from one of Mr. Schiman: I think as has been done in the past. those small rural divisions, a small Tory division. We Normally when we negotiate, when arbitrations are are not and never have been necessarily antigovernment handed down, they look at province-wide, Canada-wide reform. Our division has led the way in many of the economic indicators, how the economy is doing in terms educational reform initiatives. We have worked well of the province, the country, to get an overall, better with the Department ofEducation, and over the last fe w picture. years, our teachers have been able to maintain a high level of morale. Unlike many of the other teacher Mr. Kowalski: You talked about a concern about associations we have heard from lately, our teachers in inequities between have-nots and divisions that have the the last fe w years have not had those problems, and that resources to raise revenues and that in certain divisions is because we have had a very good working relationship teachers would end up being paid much more. Also in with the present board. For us, the system was working yourpresentation you have suggested this bill should be very well. 692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

It wasnot that long ago that we had som1� very serious was missing, that we were earning exactly the same problems with our board. It occurred the last time that amountof money as any other group of people with fo ur the Filmon government gave a board a b1ig hammer to yearsof education and experience, that we earn the same use, and that was with the Bill 22 days. As soon as our amountof money as public health nurses who have gone boardheard thatyou could lay teachers off, they did. We touniversity, as ag reps who have a fo ur-year university attended the board meeting where this momentous degree and so on, there was no answer. When you decision was to be made, and in three minutes it was compare apples to apples, there is no difference, and yet decided, eight days, yes, that is no troubk Mind you, in thatdocument it wasmore thana broad suggestion that there were some very serious issues to be dealt with at teachers were highly overpaid. that meeting. They took 20 minutes to discuss the bus drivers' barbeque and whether it was going to be So an attack upon teachers, yes, it has been there and hamburgers or hot dogs. That was dealt witth, so we got it has been obvious and we are upset about it. We see a little upset with them. Once we calmed down three thatit is continuing. Binding arbitration: It has worked years later, we realized that when you give someone a well. We have never used it in our division, and I am weapon they will use it, and the same thing will happen surethere are lots of other divisions who have not used it. ifBill 72 goes through. It is not something you want to go to, but we know that ifwe needit, it is there. We constantly hear that binding The best-intentioned board sooner or lat1er is going to arbitration is unfair because it allows this teachers' have to use that weapon, and they will havt: to use it not association toget something that they do not really need. because they want to but because the government will Well, where does that come from? I have been teaching makethem do it. The government controls how much the fo r 20 years, 15 in one division and we still do not have boards get, and when the government cuts back, as they a duty-free lunch. We do not have any of those nice have done three of the last fo ur years and will do again, things thatmany of the divisionsother have. Where does theboards are going to beforced to make some very, very this idea come from, that once you get something into tough choices. We have a hard time gettirltg upset with binding arbitratioo, everyteacher in the province is going the board when the board has to choose between cutting toget it? It isnot reality. I thinkit is one of those myths programs which our school division has done this year, that some people have. between making classes larger which our board has had to do, or between giving teachers a valued and needed Therehave also been some other myths that have been raise. It is an unfair choice and you are tht: one making brought up this evening, that Manitoba has no deficit. them make that choice. It only appears it is the school Well, that is true, we do not, right? Manitoba does not board, so I do not think it is fa ir or right that you put have a deficit. The province ran a surplus last year and them into that position, or us or the stude:nts that will we are expecting $120-( interjection] Thank you very suffer because of it. much fo r the correction-instead of $120 million, $157 million, updated . We hear that our debt, though, is the * (22 10) real problem, and it is not. That is one of those myths that is used to perpetuate why we have to make cuts to As the evening has gone on, we hav•e heard this education. We do have an accumulated debt, everyone repeatedmessage about the attack on teache:rs. Then we knows that. But debt is a normal fo rm of government. hear certain people suggest: Well, there has been no Justas fam ilies go into debt fo r a house, a car or another attack, we support what teachers do and so on, we have maj or purchase, governments go into debt fo r worthwhile never said anything like that. Well, when we had our reasons too. MLA out to one of our association meetings, we presented the Enhancing Education; Ensuring Quality We have a smaller overall debt than Ontario has a document to him, and we asked some questions about yearly deficit. Some time ago, it was Mr. Stefanson-he why certain information was in there, about why teachers is not here right now. Mr. Stefanson boasted about our werebeing selected as scapegoats, why our !;alaries were second-lowest ranking in Canada, about his debt­ theones being pointed out as being so outrageous in the servicing cost. So lower debt costs means less of increases. When we pointed out that certain information Manitobans'tax dollars must go to interest costs, he said, October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 693

andmore resources are available for services. Where are Ms. McGifl'ord: You talked about cuts to programs. I they going to? Not to educational service. Then, of wonder ifyou could giveus somemore information about course, the most famous one, the one that annoys me the cuts to programs in you: school division and the most, that it is the social services and the whole range of effects on students and teachers, particularly the possible government services that are responsible for Manitoba's effects on students' futures. Will they interfere in problems. Unfortunately, what we find outwhen we look students' abilities to seekpost-se condary education and at the real thing is that these are the lowest in the land. that sort of thing? Manitoba's are the lowest in all of Canada, and that comes from Mr. Stefanson's 1996 Budget Address. Mr. Robson: As faras cuts in the division, this year we Manitoba's per capita expenditure is the lowest among have done awaywith woodwo rking shops, home ec in the provinces. junior high area, the middle years, sorry, and the shops area in the senior high. We have replaced that with SoI get a little angry. I am not right now, I hope, but technology courses, computers and so on. We have had I get a little angry when I hear things about how we all an increase in class sizes. Many of our classes in my have to cut back and we all have to do this and we all school alone are just at or over 30, up to 35 students In have to do that when I do not see that as being the case, elementary classes. It is at the point where parents have when I see that if we have what Mr. Stefanson says, we been coming in, talking tothe administration, demanding should be using some of that to offset some of the thatchanges take place. Theboard has just come up with problems that we are hearing about tonight and that this 0.85 of a teacher fo r our school but that was only within Bill 72 is not solving any problems. It is only going to thelast week There areother schools in the division that make the problems that we have now much worse. have equally large numbers. I know thatour division has been affected by this because the school where my Mr. Chairperson: The time is up on you 10-minute daughters go to school hasjust received six new students presentation, Mr. Robson. from another school division because our school has a very-we are a very small school, only two classrooms. Mr. Robson: Thank you. I just finished. We have just received six new students from other divisions where their classes are also at the 30 number. Mr. Pallister: IfI could, Mr. Chairman, sir, thank you fo r your presentation. Just to clarifYyour point about the As far as how it has affected our students and into the lowest per capita expenditure-it is true, but just fo r future, teachers at our school, we insisted on going to a clarification, yes, we do have the lowest per capita five-period day instead of a four-period day so that we expenditure on the total of government services, but we could offer more courses to our students to make their have the fo urth highest per capita expenditure in Canada university-more viable, more likely. It has required an in the education category and the highest in health care. awful lot from the teachers to prepare extra courses. It Just fo r your interest. givesyou less prep time in the day, less noncontact time in the day. All of our high schools in the division have Mr. Robson: Thank you. I take it I do not have to gone to that system. Those are the kinds of things that answer that question? have taken place in our division.

Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Mihychuk, you have just over a minute, so governyourself accordingly. Ms. McGifford: I do not want to engage in debate with Mr. Pallister, but I think he is wrong about health. Ms. Mihychuk: I know that Morris-Macdonald has a Anyway, thank you, Mr. Robson, for your report. proud heritage, from the board and the trustees and the teachers. The wholecommunity, really, is involved with that pride. Mr. Chairperson: Sounds like you just won the debate, becausehe is notgo ing tobe able to answer. Anyway, go ahead. Mr. Robson: Yes. 694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Ms. Mihychuk: Do you feel that this government Harry McKnight is the next rural presenter. Harry recognizes what you do as a teacher, as a professional in McKnight. You may begin, Mr. McKnight. your classroom? Mr. Harry McKnight (Private Citizen): Thank you. Mr. Robson: No, I do not. I have taught for 20 years. Good evening, review committee members, Mr. I love teaching, and I would never get out of teaching at Chairman. I am Harry McKnight. I live in the R.M. of thispoint. It is mycareer and it is what I will always do, Roland which is appioximately a one-hour drive but I have never fe lt as unappreciated, as attac ked, as southwest ofWinnipeg. I am in the agriculture business. vilified as I have in the last two years . I grain-farm with my fa mily, and I also run a cattle operation. I have been a school board trustee with * (2220) Midland School Division fo r five years, and I am presently the finance chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Mihychuk, you have: 23 seconds. I amhere tonight to support thegovernment on Bill 72. Ms. Mihychuk: Have you got a sense-we have some Although Midland School Division corresponded with statistics from various surveys that indicate that parents the Minister of Education and our local MLA with our and communities support their teachers. Can you give us support and concerns on the legislative changes and an example? Is the community behind you or behind the presented to the Teacher Collective Bargaining and government on Bill 72? Compensation Review Committee, I still fee l it is very important fo r me to be here tonight. Mr. Chairpenon: You have time fo r a yt:s or no, Mr. Robson. The present process for dispute settlement cannot continue. Arbitration awards have always added to the Mr. Robson: I would have to say yes. It is the sameas wages and working conditions of the teachers and have everywhere. Parents within a community always support ina-eased thecost to divisions. It is unrealistic to expect their teachers and their schools, and they think they do a teachers to negotiate when they seem to be guaranteed to wonderful job. It is the others that are always wrong. make gains ifthey wait fo r arbitration. Also, we know thatlocal autonomy is lost once a fe w locals have settled Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Mr. Robson, fo r your orbeen arbitrated. Hopefully, the ability-to-pay clause in presentation. Bill 72 will help slow down or stop the teachers' union fr om controlling the decision-making powers of school We have received a fa x submission. a fa csimile boards. The economic good of one group should not submission, froma Tricia Hallson. Is there leave of the compromise an entire system. I honestly believe we are committee to have that read into the record. That has in danger of losing the public school system in rural now been circulated. Can that be read into Hansard? Manitoba without Bill 72. With decreased funding and taxpayers' demands fo r accountability, government needs An Honourable Member: Leave. to give school boards the tools to get the job done.

Mr. Chairperson: So done. Also, I would like to Scope of bargaining must be restricted by registration. suggest leave ofthe committee maybe grant(:d to Lawrie Inmy opinion, matters not referable fo r arbitration in Bill Kyle to present after the other rural presenters have 72 have been greatly trimmed. Over 50 percent of the presented. Mr. or Ms. Kyle, I am not sure whether it is items submitted by Midland, MAST and the Dyck­ male or fe male, is apparently here-it is Mr. Kyle-and Render committeehave not made it to Bill 72. At MAST missed his call. Is that a reasonable solution, after rural regionaltings mee this fa ll, these original items were still presenters? being asked fo r; such items as to whether teachers have to supervise lunch breaks, supervise extracurricular Some Honourable Members: Leave. activities and contact time have been ruled upon by arbitrators in the past. These decisions have significant Mr. Chairperson: Leave is so granted, Mr. Kyle. financial implications and restrict school divisions from October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 695

managing their operations. I also believe that the being before the teacher membership. Could you enlarge obligation to act fa irly and the fa ilure-to-comply sections upon that from your perspective? of Bill 72 should be removed. Countless grievances and some arbitration rulings will surely occur. Mr. McKnight: Inmy own experience, I believe that we would have hada deal with our teachers if it had gone to In closing, I would like to say that when bargaining a membership vote. I fe lt that the bargaining committee with the local teachers association, I believe that the tookit uponthemselves tobelieve that they were the ones school division's last offer should be put before the that were going to make the fm al decision on our offer teacher membership fo r a vote. and that they told us that they had been given that right, but I still believe that the membership would have voted Thank you fo r this opportunity to present my views, fa vourably on the offer. and I trust you will consider them. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thankyou, Mr. McKnight. * (2230) Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you fo r your presentation, Mr. McKnight. I have been interested in listening to the Ms. Cerilli: Thank you, Mr. McKnight, fo r your presentations tonight because I hear a common theme. presentation and fo r your hone sty. I want to ask you a We have twoamendments that we will be presenting after question about your schooldivision. We know that the the hearings. The trustees, as you know, had fo rmerly provincial government funding fo r education to school askedus toremove the grievance provision which we fe lt divisions has been reduced under this government's was important fo r teachers. What I am hearing here mandate from over 80 percent to now 62 percent, and I tonight is that teachers basically feel that grievance am wondering, first ofall, ifyou can explain how this has position is worthless and useless and does not give them affected your division and ifyou think that this bill has anything they do not already have. In light of that, come fo rward to try and deal with the constraints that perhaps you might wish to comment upon any fe edback school divisions have been put under because of those you may have picked up. We had been under the cutbacks. impression that the fa irness clause with the grievance provision was something that teachers had been looking Mr. McKnight: Why, I would not imagine we are any fo r and wanted. Is it your impression-I certainly got the different from other school divisions with decreased impression here tonight that it is not something they funding. Firstly, we have had to raise taxes. We have particularly want. In fa ct, they have complained quite not cut programs. I would say that that would be our bitterly about it tonight. next step. In fact, this year we added a program, a YIPF [phonetic] program, and wehave dipped into our surplus. Have you heard anything in your division that teachers Our surplus is in half and a $250,000 surplus on a $9- fe el that the grievances procedure that we have here is as million budget is not an exorbitant amount, so the other useless as it seems to be, being presented and put to us part I believe is where we made gains. Because of the here tonight? reduction in funding, like I said earlier, we did not cut the Mr. McKnight: I cannot say that I have heard a lot programs. We did have to cut some staffand we did that about the bill, period, in our division. I have heard some in the way of prep time. comments with reference to the ability-to-pay clause, more so than I have with the grievance clause. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Develop­ ment): Mr. McKnight, as a school trustee I know that Mrs. Mcintosh: Final question. you do touchbase not only with the teaching staffin your divisions but certainlywith parents and taxpayers in your Mr. Chairperson: Okay, final question. division as well. Although we have heard many presenters tonight talkabout the fa ct that this is an attack Mrs. Mcintosh: Could youplease enlarge upon-I know on teachers and their teaching abilities or the job that they that your organization has talked about the last offer do in the classrooms, let me say that I fo r one believe that 696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

teachers do an excellent job in the classrooms, and I am and damn good ones. The people want to work in our certainly one who is veryproud of the work that they do. community.

However, I do want to ask whether or not you fee l that Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Pallister, we have another in talking to your taxpayers they fee l that Bill 72 is going question after you, so your last question. to impact negatively on the education of thc�ir children?

Mr. Pallister: Very quickly, sir, thank you. It is good Mr. McKnight: No, I have not been approached by to hear that certainly some teachers are not entirely taxpayers thathave told me that. In fa irness, I would say demoralized in theirjobs. That is good to hear, but what we have just come through a busy harvest season and you have just said, I guess, reaffmns to me that your myself, I am still invoivedheavily in the corn harvest, so division has nothing to fear in terms of these two clauses I cannot say that there has been a lot of dis<;ussion other being in there, that you do attempt and do act fa irly, and than coffee shop talk. It is maybe unfair fo r me to soagain I askyou why you feel theobligation to act fa irly comment on that. and the fa ilure to comply with that should not be part of the bill. Mr. Pall,ister: Thank you, Mr. McKnight, fo r your presentation. You suggest that the-I do not know, Mr. . Chairman, ifthat is on or if it matters if it i:s on anyway. Mr. McKnight: I fe el that we do not have the time nor the resources to spend all our time fightmg grievances. You suggest that the obligation to act fairly and the I guess that is where I amcoming fromand whether that failure to comply to sections of the bill should be is a hard line, I am sorry, but that is what it is. removed. I have had consultation with many teachers who view these two specific clauses as bei.J11g important Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman,a just quick question. in termsof safeguardi.Jllg their interests, and I must admit wanted to thank you fo r coming and I appreciate your I share their views. So I will ask you to explain again coming. Am I right in understandi.Jllg that you are your compelling reasonswhy those clauses should not be appearing on behalfof yourself rather than on behalf of included in the bill. the trustees, or are you here as a delegate?

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Pallister, your voice is being Mr. McKnight: I amhere on behalf of myself, that is recorded; it is just your very quiet voice. right.

Mr. Pallister: Oh, I see. Ms. Friesen: In one of your paragraphs you said that "we are in danger" -and it is quite a striking paragraph­ Mr. McKnight: Well, I think it all goes down to " of losing the public school system in Rural Manitoba financial restrictions. I really fee l dutt working without Bill 72," and you fo llow it with "decreased conditions are not that bad. We are fa ir to our teachers, funding and taxpayers demands for accountability." and we do have a good working relationship with them. We have one particular high school that has-we talk about morale tonight-a very high morale. They have I wondered if you could give me a sense, from your starteda new system, a Copernican system, working with perspective, whether you think the greater difficulty lies the Walter andDuncan Gordon Foundation, and they are with teachers' wagesor with provincial fundi.Jllg. real go-getters. Theyhave a lot of morale over there, and I think it rubs off on some of our other high schools Mr. McKnight: Well, I guess weeach have our sides to where we possibly do not have as high a morale. But I take, and I would have to say that teachers' wages areour believe it is a real community spirit, and these teachers biggest problem Ifwe are talking about increases in the fe el they are part of the community. fu ture, I would say we need a level playing field, a levelling out of wages for a while. So, if that is a harsh When we have a job opening in our community, a statement, again, I apologize, but I think it is reality that teacher's position, we have 80 to a hundred applicants, we may have to stabilize and level wages. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 697

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. McKnight, fo r your positions of authority, manipulate information, consult presentation. and then invalidate the whole consultation process by their actions. I would now like to call on Steve Lawrie. Teachers do not give their consent to Bill 72, because Mr. Steve Lawrie (Private Citizen): Thank you, Mr. it is unreasonable, unjust and will hurt teachers. Other Chairman. It has been a very painful process, I am sure stakeholders that are informed are also opposed to Bill 72 fo r all of us, but I fo und it extremely painful sitting here because it is unfair to teachers. The opposition will and listening these last fo ur, fo ur and a half hours. continue to grow as more and more people realize this government has abused its authority and legislated a I am a school principal, and I am a teacher, I am a process that is unfair to teachers. graduate student at the Un iversity of Manitoba and I hope to be a parent one day. I have chosen to speak to you not Public servants, health and education professionals are representing any one of the above stakeholders or not missionaries.. They deserve to be fa irly compensated positions, but all them of . I applaud education reform; I fo r theircontributions to society. Not unlike politicians, applaud government reform. Our society is changing so they give up many opportunities to serve the citizens of rapidly and the perspective or paradigm we choose to Manitoba. They lose opportunities to be entrepreneurs, help us understand our world has had to change with it. to enjoy the tax advantages of the private sector, to acquire wealth, and instead become reliant upon a steady Democratic government requires the support of its wage. citizens, and education requires the support of all stakeholders to achieve the best possible future fo r our The difference is that politicians can decide their own children. It is evident that Bill 72 needs to be reformed pensions and salaries and tax benefits. [interjection] fo r the simple reason, it does not have the support of all Now I have been educated into the latest process and I stakeholders in education. Why? I do not think that appreciate that. I was not aware of that. Public servants really matters . If one of the stakeholders is unanimously cannot. Therefore it is necessary to have a fa ir and opposed and many other representatives of other unbiased, independent process to determine public sector stakeholder groups believe it violates principles of salaries if they cannot be freely negotiated. fa irness and equity, then Bill 72 is not fit to be

legislation, period. Bill 72 removes that process and replaces it with a · process incredibly biased and unfair, one where teachers It is time this government reformed its attitudes and will not be able to protect their standard of living and actions to more democratically represent all stakeholders . independent arbitration will no longer be able to protect More and more organizations are learning to align teachers from school boards and governments. themselves with the information age, working towards consensus and shedding the segmented, hierarchical In closing I advise this government to reform Bill 72, industrial model. Modern organizations cannot be to reconsider the costs of imposing the unfair legislation competitive if they alienate a major stakeholder, yet this on the people you rely upon to education your children. is what the government is proposing to do with Bill 72. There are always alternatives and I am confident that if All stakeholders in education in Manitoba need to be on you continue to work with all stakeholders, you will be the same team to pull together to reform education fo r our able to develop legislation that all stakeholders can society . It may be easier fo r those in positions of support. I urge you to take the time necessary to authority, fo r example, Premier Gary Filmon, the complete this task. Honourable Mrs. Mcintosh, John Carlyle, to use that position of authority to mandate their views upon all * (2240) stakeholders. That mandate is doomed to fa ilure ifit is not supported by the stakeholders. Surveys time and time A couple of other comments before I respond to again indicate citizens do not trust their politicians and questions. First, I dispute the fa ct that arbitration has governments. Why? Because governments abuse their always increased teacher's salaries. Teachers have lost 698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 their wage-earning potential over the last number of the message I have been hearing here. That is why he years. My fa ther-in-lawhas beena teacher lbr I think 30 supports Bill 72. To me, it is black and white. years. He has recently retired. He calculat{:d out that he has lost 18 percent of hisability to maintain .a standard of Now, as I said, I am a teacher. I am the president of living over the last decade or so. our local association. Do not tell me as a principal who has constantly been working with the parents in my Teachers, I amaware, have taken zeroes many times, in community, as a teacher and as a president of a local our division and in other divisions eilher through association who has visited most of the schools in my arbitration or through negotiations. This concept here division, personally have visited them, I did not wait fo r that I keep hearing about, that teachers do not like the them to come to a meeting. I went to them and I grievance provision, I wish to dispute that. That is not canvassed each one of them and I talked to them. whatI have heard tonight. What I have heard is that this grievance provision does not protect teachers and it does Do not tell me that teachers' morale is not low. Our not compensate for the inclusion of ability to pay. That morale in our division is very high, fo r one reason only is themessa ge I havebeen hearing, not wha1 the minister and that is because of the leadership of our has said ..The grievance provision can be a good thing, superintendent, our currentsuperintendent, and our board but it does not compensate for ability to pay. and the single-team bargaining process we have been using. We have beenvery progressive in our division. The second thing, I would really like to thank Mr. We are implementingall the New Directionsmandat es. McKnight for his discussion here and hi.s comments We aredoing a greatjob. We do not deserve Bill 72 and because I think they painted the whole picture for us and theboard shouldnot have a weapon like thatbecause the right in public view. He wants to remove fairness, the current board is not always going to be there. fairness clause. He is afraid of arbitration, afraid of independent arbitrationdeciding what is fa ilr and what is Sowhile I have noproblems right now in my division, not. The boardwants to decidewhat is fa il� and what is I seewith Bill 72 there are going to be major problems not. Why does he want this? Well, because of the for me as an administrator, as a teacher, as a future financial restrictions. Well, I do not blame: him. If you parent,and that iswhy I amurging you to scrap this thing put him between a rock and a hard place, what is he and start from scratch and do something that is fa ir, that going todo? Okay. His justification? Well, we think we is truly consensus of all the stakeholders, not this are pretty fair. That is all that counts. As long as we consultation thing where you listen to what we have to think we arefa ir, he should think we are fa ir too. say and then go decide on your own. Thankyou.

Another interesting thing, the questions I hear asking Mrs. Render: Thank you for a very passionate the trustee, you are asking himhow teachers fee l. Have presentation.like I your sentence where you talk about if you not heard tonighthow teachers fe el? Ludicrous. I do one of the stakeholders is unanimously opposed, then notunderstand. I donot understand. This many teachers perhaps there isnot fairness in how things proceed.am I go out of their way to come here to present to you and not too sure if you were aware but, during the you ask the trustee how he thinksteachers fee l. Go ask presentations, almost unanimously teachers wanted the his teachers. They are the ones who will telll you. status quo, virtuallyunanimously. The other stakeholder in the group wanted change. So, obviously, there was a Finally, when asked a very specific question, what is system in place where one stakeholder fe lt that the dice the problem, is it financial restrictions or is it teachers' were weighted in fa vour. Now, because trustees and wages, what did he say to you? It was teac:hers' wages, teachers operate under The Public Schools Act, which is not financial restrictions, so that blows your whole under government, we as government had anoblig ation argument out the window fo r the justification of Bill 72. to listen to both sides and tryto make things fa ir. Everything I hear tonight about Bill 72 is that it somehow is tied to funding education cuts. People are Mr. Lawrie: You make a very good point, and I will scared of it because they know it is a tool to lower respond to that by saying that I do not think that all teachers' wages with funding education cuts, and that is teachers unanimously wanted the status quo. I have not October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 699

heard that fromteache rs, certainly not in my division. I teachersare misunderstanding this government, that they do not think all teachers are unanimously opposed to the really support teachers, that this really is not as bad as education reforms or to all aspects of Bill 72, but what I people arebeing ledto believe . Can you respond to that? think is that they are opposed to the way it is currently drafted, and what I think is that the way, the method that Mr. Lawrie: Yes, I have two responses to that. Either this government has used to develop this legislation is the government is full of very well-intentioned but very not truly consensus building and not representative. naive people, I do not subscribe to that. I think that I have great confidence in their intelligence. I think that Mrs. Render: I wonder thenif you could expand. What theyare verywell aware of what they are doing and what do you mean, themethod it was developed? We listened is being done, and I think that the trustees have had their to many, many hundreds of teachers- year, that they have gotten themselves into the position where they are already-! see constant backtracking, and Mr. Lawrie: We do not agree with what you have done, I am kind of curious by this, but fust that enhancing the as teachers. I hear this concept too that teachers have quality is ensuring accountability document, okay, and agreedto some provisions of abilityto pay. I just talked the Dyck-Render report, I go through those things, arid I to Art Reimer of MTS. I have been at the meetings. have been reading them. MTS, as far as I know, hasnever, ever said that any part of ability to pay is acceptable. What they have said is, if you are going to do this to us and you know we I have read everything, and I cannot quote it, because fundamentally oppose it, you are not going to listen to us, I donot have it in front me,of but I have read everything. you are going to label us aspecial-interest group, you can My impression was, this is incredible. I never believed do all this to us, then at least consider this. thatthis would ever come out about teachers and that the government would take this approach in education. And Mrs. Mcintosh: That is all we have ever said you said. then each time it seems to soften justa little bit.

Mr. Lawrie: That is right. I was here and what I heard I come here tonight with my brief prepared, and I am was, I am sorry, but what I heard- quite upset. The first thing I hear is that again the Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Please, let us do this government is reaching out to teachers and inaking through the Chair on all parts. Mr. Lawrie, complete another amendment that we are not going to make it the your commentary. primary thing anymore, ability to pay will not be the . primary thing. Mr. Lawrie: My proposition toyou is that I, as an MTS local association president, have never heard any of my Well, my question is, why have they had to backtrack provincial executive in any way endorse your support of so fa r? If they were working towards developing abilityto pay. We have been very concerned with what consensus and they have been listening to us right from it could be done. When I first came here and I heard the the start, they would not be doing all this backtracking. amendment, to be quite honest, I am so pessimistic even But the backtracking is not good enough. though I talked to my MLA fo r an hour. I have tried; I have listened very carefully. We have invited our MLA to our thin g. I mean, we are in a Conservative riding. Mr. Chairperson: Maybe the honourable minister can We are not antigovernment but, on this issue, you are respond to that. wrong, and you have to listen to us, because that is the important thing. Ifwe do not agree, you cannot do it to Mrs. Mcintosh: I guess we all take a look at these us. It is not going to happen. things through our own perceptions and our own experiences. You mention backtracking in naivete and Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Cerilli and then the minister. I all of those things, andyou do not know any teachers that am afraid not, Mrs. Render. like this, and all of the comments that you have made.

Ms. Cerilli: I would like Mr. Lawrie to respond to the Mr. Lawrie: I did not say you did not know any other comments that the government has made, that teachers. 700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

* (2250) someone please explain to me, anyone explain to me, what was wrong with the current system? Mrs. Mcintosh: Okay, thank you. But I have to indicate first of all, there is no backtracking. A year ago, The only thing I haveheard is what Mr. McKnight just before the election, Mr. Manness indicated 1:hat he would saidthat and isbecause of fm ancial problems we need to try to do something about the problem th{: trustees had lower teachers' salaries. That is what I have heard. That been expressing almost unanimously fo r over a decade. is the only thing I have heard through Bill 72. I see This is not a new problem, and this was a subject that nothing in Bill 72 fo r teachers or fo r education. I see was of some discussion during the election. This was nothing except that, yes, you are in a financial problem something that Mr. Manness tried to do by putting and I amnot going to tell you how to runyour finances, teachers andtrustees together and saying, please, canyou soyou are going to use this instrwnent to affect teachers' come to a consensus on this? salaries and compensation.

* (2250) Mr. Chairperson: Thanks for your response, Mr. Lawrie, and your presentation. Mr. Chairperson: Thirtyseconds, honourable minister. Mr. Adam Grabowski? Adam Grabowski is a new Mrs. Mcintosh: And they could not. Now we see registrant this evening from out of town. There are two consensus coming in certain areas, and I have never said out-of-town registrants that registered early this evening. that teachers wanted ability-to-pay claus{:. We know Oneis Mr. Fred Veldink, who would be callednext, and teachers do not want ability to pay addressed. We do then afterthat, Lawrie Kyle, who we agreed would be put know, though, that they have said, ifyou are going to do to the bottom of the list. it, at least do it this way, but we prefer you not do it. And we understand that. Mr. Adam Grabowski, you may begin your presentation. Can you tell me how you think "ability to pay" should bedefi ned? Since it is going to be a clause, how do you Mr. Adam Grabowski (Private Citizen): I wish I was think it should read? about twoteachers befm: , but I will take the order I come in. To let you know before I really begin, I am the Mr. Chairperson: I am afraid you are out of time, president of the Birdtail River Teachers' Association. honourable minister. Thispresentation is out of time. I was originally coming to plan to speak on behalf of An. Honourable Member: Leave. the association, but as I beganmy report I discovered that instead of that I have come to a more personal writing. Mr. Chairperson: Is leave granted? Leave to answer So this is why I am down here as a private citizen; it is has been granted. more for me. The copy you will get and what I will be reading, you will fm d out that leaving me alone fo r a Mr. Lawrie: I would argue that in our current couple of hours has allowed me to do a lot more than independent arbitration process "ability to pay" has what I have down, so I hopeyou enjoy. always been there. Arbitrators, as you said-and I saw you nodding earlier-that under the cwrent process I do live in a small rural division. Why? My choice; "ability to pay" was always there. Arbitrators do not-I thatis where I want to live. My fa mily knows that living do know what the conception is, but they do not just go in that nualarea doesoffer not us the same advantages as and hand out a 5 percentincrease when no one else in the what cities might have, but my family and I have learned province is getting it. They do not just arbitrarily put a to live with what we get. To us the benefits wereceive school division out of business by exceeding their ability far outweigh the advantages of a city. What are these to pay. I mean we have to be reasonable here but what advantages I speak of? They are peace and safety, we are saying is, I have not heard and I have tried to be, knowing your whole community and everyone in it-1 over the long time here, very open-minded, but would know that fo r a fa ct-older cheaper housing, cheaper October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 701

taxes,some in cases less services, by choice and because choice. My kids will become a tax burden because they its important to myfa mily. My wife canstay at home and will now have to use the daycare. You, the government, work atra ising our two sons, right now the ages of three will have to work more to try and offset this sudden rise and one. We were able to take the responsibility to teach in cost. What will you do to make up the loss of taxes them the respectful values that we see. Yes, we give up that will result in my lowering of income. All right. My the extra luxuries but this is a choice that we have lived wife will probably be working. But, do not worry. with. Why am I able to do this? It is because of my profession. Will my gas prices go down? Will I see the lowering of my hydro rates, the phones? How about my Autopac In my profession, I put up with children who do not premiums? Will stress vanish? Will the attacks on want to be at school. I put up with children who show no teachers by public, by students, by parents, will they respect, children who regularly vandalize and deface our lessen? Probably not. Why? Well, one of probably school, children with such low self-esteem getting them three reasons: ability to pay; restrictions of Bill 72; and to look at you and communicate is almost nonexistent. I the fa ctthat the others do not seem to be of importance to have parents that use me as a tool to take out their warrant bills. fr ustrations, because I work the mythical nine to 3:30, that I am overpaid, that I am underworked. Why do I With all ofthis, will I beable to stay in my profession? stay? Because of the love fo r my profession. Well, as it was stated earlier, I have had people say to me, if you do not like it, then get something else. When Befo re I go on at this point, I would like to add that I I was inGrade 6, my teacher, Jim Murray, at Jameswood do teach children who want to be at school, who are Schoolin Winnipeg, impressed me enough that I decided respectful. I have positive parents. I also enjoy when I then to become a teacher. I put four years of university finally get one of those students to look at me and say, in. I suffered through a break-up of my parents at that wow, Mr. G., I get it, thanks. That is when I fo rget time. I have had hundreds of hours of PD. I have had reality, but, unfortunately, reality bites back, usually at hundreds of hours of working with my staffto come up about minus 2 percent. with decisions to better the schools and the students. I have had to go through the misery of not being. able to Now, I am fa ced with a tax from my government. The afford to fixour infertility. I have had thousands of hours Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) has said, do not of extracurricular; I have had hundreds of thousands of worry. Well, I worry. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) has hours of planning and marki ng. I did this to become joined the parents I meet on the street and say, I am too what I want in a teacher. As a teacher, I say, damn to · overpaidby about 25 percent, or is it about 15? Teachers anyone who tells me, find something else. have too much power. Arbitrators do not listen. My government sayswe must have Bill 72, but do not worry. Withall of what is happening, will I be able to stay in my profession? I really want to. Lord knows, I really Well, what do I see in my future? Let us take a look. want to, but I do not know. Why?-because of the attack I see school boards that will use the ability of pay to of what I find coming from the government. Thank you. lower that mythical 85 percent of their budgets, teachers' salaries. Since we cannot arbitrate it, I see workload * (2300) class sizes increasing to get more fo r the buck. Noon hours will lessen. Why?-because we do need to have a Mrs. Mcintosh: I fo und your presentation verymoving, full hour to eat. When we do finally negotiate, why the and I want to indicate that all that we have determined time lines, 60 days, only really need one meeting. Why about the impact of this bill, and ifyou read it through does the bill not make it mutually agreeable to have to carefully, which I urge you to do, get a copy of it, and have the mediation-arbitration route instead of the read it through very carefully, our expectation is that the conciliation-arbitration route. Personally, my wife will net impact of this will be that fo r the future the increases probably have to be fo rced to leave our kids and go to that teachers experience, the percentage change in their work and make up fo r lost income. We still have the salaries, will more closely resemble the percentage same amount of less but it will no longer be by our increase in the other groups in Manitoba. This does not 702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

mean a cut for you; it does notmean a change in your by its current revenues, including the funding received working conditions. It means that that gap that trustees from the government, which, as you know, has gone were worrying about that was beginning Ito widen will minus-2, minus-2, minus-2, and the Government of just remain more or less where it is. I know you do not Canada, which the minister tells us has also been down want to listen to me saying do not worry, but read it and its taxation revenue. From that reading of the bill, through clause by clause and ask yourself what you think can you give me a sense of what you think the the impact of the words in the bill will be, not what you implications of this will be fo r teachers' salaries? have been told by people who said that your salary is going to be rolled back. Those things are 111ot part of the Mr. Grabowski: I sure hope that the boards will bill. I urge you to do that fo r your own comfort's sake, continue to support us, but, unfortunately, ifthey have becauseI thinkyou have, in your speech and the way you thatright in that legislation and funding continues to cut are talking tonight, a dedication to the classroom that or boards decide to give taxpayers breaks, I cannot help needs to be fo stered and encouraged, not thwarted by but believe that the salaries will go down and we will fa lse rumours, innuendo and scaremongering. suffer that way.

The qu�stion I amasking is, would you do that? Mr. Pallister: Thankyour fo r your presentation, sir .

. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. I have consultedwith a numberof school divisions and spoken to their trustees-and this is prior to this Mrs. Mcintosh: Why are people thinking that is a amendment,of course, today,sir-and they uniformly have funnything to ask? I ambeing sincere. said that their greatest concern was in the area ofability to payand that theirconcern that was that would have the Mr. Grabowski: I can see the sincerity in your face, but effect of increasing teachers' salaries. How do you I know Iam also with the bargaining unit and I know that respond to that? we are going to be receiving zero, becaus�: that is what has been happening throughout the province with the Mr. Grabowski: That the ability to pay in this current session, with the current way that we negotiate. legislationwiU result in the increase of teachers' salaries?

Inthat readingthat I cansee, I know it sltates in there, Mr. Pallister: Yes, that is correct. boards are not expected to roll back teachers' salaries. Unfortunately, it is like ifI give my kid a bowlful of Mr. Grabowski: Well, I never thought of that really, candysaid, and now,only one. Pretty soonhe is going to you know. Boy, the ability to pay allowing our salaries takeadvantage of it, and that is what I see from boards. to go up without government increasing going up. Iffimding continues to be cut back and ifthe boards and Whew, that would be pretty good,would it not? But I that ability to pay is still in there and still being used, am sorry, in the whole point to this, I cannot see it. I they are going to be able to use that by blackmailing, know boards, as well as other people, can be very saying, courses for salaries, layoffs, salaries. lbat is vindictive, and that is what I believe. what I seecoming. Mrs. Mcintosh: Are you aware that the Manitoba Ms. Friesen: Thank you fo r your presentation. Association of School Trustees conducted a series of regional meetings fo r every board in the province of The minister has asked you to read the bill, and I Manitobaand that approached they me last week with the understand from your recent answer that of course you very grave cmcemthat the ability-to-pay clause, the way have. But I did want to specifically ask you this wehad it worded, would in years of leanness beof some question The ministersaid, has pleaseread the bill. The assistance to boards, but that as the economy recovers, bill says that the arbitrator will be expected in respect of which it isdoing, in boomyears when the funding is back matters that might reasonably be expectc:xl to have a up, teachers could use it on the theory basis the sword financial effecton the school division, et cetera, et cetera, cuts both ways, that it could be a very powerful weapon tolook at the schooldistrict's ability to pay as determined fo r teachers. Ofcourse , I have been sayingthat all along. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 703

Therefore, the board of MAST passed the resolution and Maybe more significant is an example I can give out of came toask usplease tochan ge the clause to the wording my own school. I am teaching at College Beliveau, a that teachers hadreq uested, so that there would be not so French immersion high school in St. Boniface and I am much of achance that-they would be more level-and that using a text that was printed in '78 but in fa ct was ftrst is why we have the amendmentyou see before us tonight. published in '69. This is what I have to work with, that Trusteesfo rmerly asked tohave the wording that teachers datafrom 1969. This is not the only one. My history text said they could live with if there had to be an ability-to­ was published in 1980, 16 years old which puts a pay clause. I wonder ifyou could comment upon that in tremendous amount of extra work on me as a teacher to light of your reaction the trustees must be, I guess, very keep things current. In addition, my budget fo r social naive as well, all those 57 school boards who believe that studies is so low that, if I were to replace the textbook in there might be an advantage fo r teachers in the wording. geography which at the moment is $5 1 .30, with the Are they wrong? amount of money I have, I can only supply ftve students out of 75 with the necessary text, which means that with the moneyI get, it will takeme 15 years to supply just my Mr. Grabowski: I guess that that would be under the geography kids with the textbook they need, . which belief that funding will go up, that times will get better. means, of course, that my history students will get Ifthat ha ppens, maybe thenit will be time fo r the trustees nothing. again to be worried, but then again what is it to change the law one more time. * (23 10)

Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you. Thisis a concrete example of the cutbacks that have an effect in the daily classroom. In addition, I do not have Mr. Chairperson: Thanks fo r your presentation, Mr. a single wall chart or map that is current. Ifyou are Grabowski. looking for Russia or Bosnia you will not fm d it. In fa ct, I have a map of Africa that is 30 years old. It has Mr.Fred Veldink. You may begin your presentation, practically the whole colonial situation in Africa. Mr. Veldink. Nothing, nothing is current.

Mr. Fred Veldink (Private Citizen): Good evening, In addition to the materials, materials can always be ladies andgentlemen. My name is Fred Veldink and I am overcome, but I think a fa r worse problem, a much here as a parent and as a teacher toexpress my opposition greater obstacle to learning is class size. Class size has to Bill 72. Bill 72 does not in any way improve the increasedover the past fe w years. At the moment, I have public education system. It rather provides a framework groups of 30-plus. I can teach 50 kids, I can teach 30 fo r further cutbacks. Cutbacks have been a fa ct of life fo r kids, but the question here is, what it really comes down the past couple of years and what I would like to do here to is, how effective is learning in a large group? We all is to give you some concrete examples of the kinds of know that the most effective learning is one to one and, experiences I have had as a teacher and as a parent. as the size of the group increases, the effectiveness of learningdecr eases. (Mr. Vice-Chairperson in the Chair) Ofthe students I have in geography, history and social My two children go to Selkirk. They both attend the studies, I have a total of 39 right at the moment who have Selkirk Regional Comprehensive High School. When my difficulties. These kids I cannot help in a regular son was taking Mathematics Senior 1, Senior 2, Senior 3, classroom. So fo r these kids I have time in the morning, on two occasions textbooks were not issued, the reason eight o'clock in the morning and the lunch hour, and we being there were not enough for the number of students in have lunch while we work. But even with that extra the system, which of course created problems fo r us as effort, which I will not be able to continue fo rever, some parents because what can you do as parents? Either buy of them are going to fa ll through the cracks, and I want textbooks or findsources otherwise. My daughter in fa ct you to beaware of the cost of these students who will not last weekhad the same experience in one of her courses. be able to make it. 704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

I got a figure from the director of finance of the St. not neglected education. It is our second-highest Boniface School Division, who told me that the cost of expenditure. We havehad financial problems of our own keeping a student an extra year in school is $6,036, and I know people want to discount them, but one only which meansthat any student whofa ils, who has to spend needs to look at what the bond rating agencies say and anextra year , is anadditional cost to 'society. In addition have the power to do if we do not fo llow the fiscal tight tothat, that student will enter the workforce a year later, reinthat all Canadians and Americans are having to fa ce he will pay taxes a year later, so there is a c:ost to society these days. Anyhow, I just present that to you. in that. I wanted to ask you, because you indicated that, you So, in other words, ifyou cut back in education now, said class size is extremely important. I want to present the consequences are going to be fe lt, maybe not directly, a progression ofthought to you and then ask you to point but further down the line. I urge you to restore funding out where the flaws in that concept are. It goes like this. the way it was a couple of years ago. You obviously donot have a class-size agreement if your class size is out of control and you cannot do anything In addition, I would like to point out a worse scenario about it. I think there are only a couple of divisions in thanthe oneI mentioned where a student simply fa ils and Manitobathat have succeeded in bargaining in class size. spends an'other year is a student dropping out of school. What could happen to make trustees more amenable to . I have had students who have dropped out. Despite the negotiatingclass size in a collective agreement? I believe efforts by colleagues, administration, counsellors, pressure on the boards to negotiate a class-size students have droppedout. These students might present agreement-wiD it beltl

Can you tell me what is wrong with my thinking that education system, andwe have tokeep it accessible, open teachers seem to not like this thinking? I can pull it ifit and equal to all Manitobans. is something they do not like, because they keep saying they do not like it, but I cannot understand why that That is why I am also against funding private schools. would not be something that would be good fo r them. If somebody wants to set up a private school, with our democratic system, that is possible. That is a right, and Mr. Veldink: My answer is really short and simple. it should not be taken away. But I still believe that our amworking with a board, I am working fo r a board that society needs a good, functioning, quality public school has been extremely co-operative. We have the same system, and I think all efforts should go towards that. goals. Our basic goal is to educate the children and to provide the best possible learning environment fo r them. (Mr.Chairperson in the Chair) There hasnever been a problem, and I am absolutely sure the board has always done up to now what was best for Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much fo r your thechildren . So I really do not see any need to go into a presentation. I would now like to call Lawrie Kyle. You discussion as to what extent we should use the law, may begin, Mr. Kyle. because I think there has always been a reasonable approach and a reasonable working together with the Mr. Lawrie Kyle (Private Citizen): Mr. Chairman, board. Madam Minister, ladies and gentlemen. First of all, I thank you for allowing me to speak tonight afterhav ing The essence of the problem is not our relation with the been called home fo r another meeting and comingback board or us being able to grieve with the board; the again. I appreciate this opportunity. It is not my essence is that funding is not adequate. That is why we intention tobe confrontational, nor am I here to speak fo r have large classes. So I think the ultimate responsibility any group. I am here to speak for myself, and I am here rests with the government to provide adequate funding. to tell you how I fe el.

Ms. Friesen: You have foc used upon the lack of I am aresident of Oakbank, and I am employed by the funding, and I wondered if you were aware of the rate of Transcona-Springfield School Division. I do not know increase in funding to private schools over the last fe w ifany ofyou have ever had the experience of having your years and that elsewhere in the budget, the government fa mily let you down, in fact, purposely doing you wrong. has been spending in the region of $9 million on During my career in education, which has spanned over corporate training grants to companies like Safeway and 3 0 years, I have been involved in my community and I IDM and Holt Renfrew anda number of other companies continue to do so. When I signed my first contract for which already do a greatdeal of training. I wondered if $2,800, I was told by the secretary of the schooldistrict you fe lt that was anappropriate way fo r education dollars that it was an expectation to be involved in the to be spent. community. I have been involved in my church, the agriculture society, the Costume Museum, the curling * (2320) club, Cubs and Scouts, and was involved in a political party having run unsuccessfully fo r nomination on two Mr. Veldink: I think that a responsibility of the occasions. The Honourable Mr. Reimer can tell you how government is to provide a solid, sound, basic education thoroughly I got beat. to all Manitobans. I think the other thing in public education is public education has to be a general Having beenpresident of theriding association, having education. When it comes to specific training, I think worked fo r several ProgressiveConservative candidates business hasa responsibility, but I think basic education in provincial and fe deral elections, I was proud to be is a responsibility of government and secondary school associated with politics and that particular politcal party boards. School boards are basically delegated to provide because in my perception it was a party that stood fo r education in the name of the government. So I think democratic resolution to labour conflict, fo r fa irness in whenit comesto giving grants to corporations, I think it dealing with any groupof labour or professionals in our is the wrong direction. We have to fund the public province. It was a party who represented the average 706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Manitoban, and it was a party that was progressive in Has any member of the Legislature present taken the education under ministers of Education such as the opportunityto spend time in a public school, and I mean Honourable Keith Cosens. I am ashamed to admit that I spend some length- have worked two decadesfor a political party whohas, in my perception, become arrogant in government, a Mn. Mcintosh: I am just saying yes. government who has now a vendetta against my profession, and some here might suggest that I am Mr. Kyle: Oh, thank you. Of course, I did not see you disillusioned because theactions of this govcernment have in my school, but I appreciate that you were in the hit mypocketbook . Ofcourse , anyone is concerned when schools. their fa mily earnings are decreased in times of higher costs to run a home and at the age when you have Mn. Mcintosh: Well, I will probably get to it. I have children attending university. But that is not the point at been in hundreds of others . all.

I am disillusioned, in fa ct I am angry when a Mr. Kyle: You are certainly invited. Wayoata School governmc;nt, through innuendo, or by other actions, in Transcona. I mean, spending some length of time, discredits my profession. There was a time that a though, Madam Minister. Minister of Education would defend the public school system, that would make changes seem necessary to Mrs. Mcintosh: Right. A day or two, yes. improve it rather than publicly criticizing it through the media. ·There was a time when a Minister of Education Mr. Kyle: As teachers meetlarger and larger challenges would challenge the media and corre<:t erroneous eachday, new cwricula, newstrat egies, larger class sizes, information or perceptions that were being propagated. inclusion of special needs' students, more expectations I just heardthe Honourable Mr. Derkach say that he was from parents and government, student behaviour, parent proud of the teachers, and I thank you for that. I just behaviour, trying to please a wide spectrum of wish I could seethat in print in the paper. It would mean expectations of parents anddiscr editing from the ministry so much to us. that it is the fa ult of educators fo r any or all problems in the system today, they need not be embarrassed of their Having discredited myprof ession, the govcernment now salary. Get into the public school, not a private school fee ls the time is ripe to bring in dictatorial legislation of that caters only to the academic or the financial elite. Bill 72. Inour schoolswe teach our students, the skills of Walk the shoes of a teacher fo r a day, and then you may mediation and con ciliation in working out their reconsider legislation such as Bill 72. differences with others only to have them rcealize that in the real world of Manitoba one no longer has that Yes, I am saddened that my political fa mily has let my opportunity but rather working conditions can now be profession down . I am also frightened though that the dictated by your employer. other two alternative political parties, in my mind, have not done their job in informing Manitobans of proposed legislation of Bill 72. Having listened to them tonight, After my school division is told what education grant that might change. it is re<:eiving fiom theprovince, after the school division sets its budget, then it will open negotiations with its Ladies gentlemen,and aswe coach students to do, take employees, only to say that they have 1110 ability to a deep breath, a second look, and question yourselves improve working conditions or salaries. Tea,chers in Fo rt about what the consequences are of your decisions. If Garry, fo r example, will be having higher :salaries than you did, I am sure you would realize that becauseof its those in Transcona-Springfield or Beautiful Plains. By terrible ramifications to fa ir collective bargaining that using the same concept and applying it to our elected Bill 72 is bad legislation. representatives, would the MLA fo r Springfield or Transconahave thesame working benefits as the member fo r Tuxedo or Fort Garry? Ladies and gentlemen, thankyou fo r this opportunity. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 707

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Kyle. Madam here will attest to the fa ct that their parents and their Minister and then Ms. Cerilli. You have a question, school are very supportive of their school; but, as you Madam Minister? know, only one-third of the taxpayers out there are parents. It is certainly what other people perceive, and Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, you have a number of statements our media has really butchered our profession in the last in here that imply some things that I am puzzled about. fe w years. I am asking youas minister to defend some of I think all but fo ur years of my life have been spent in the good things that are happening in the school and some way or another every September waiting fo r the correct some of the erroneous statements that are being public school system to start again, because it has been made in the paper. part of my life. Now, you have made a statement here thatthere was a time when a Minister of Education would Mrs. Mcintosh: If you could get the media to print our defend the public school system and would make any words, I would be grateful. changes to improve it rather than publicly criticizing it in the media, and I am wondering ifyou could indicate Mr. Kyle: I do not mean the Winnipeg Sun. which Minister of Education were you referring to that by implication here has been publicly criticizing the Ms. Cerilli: Thanks fo r your presentation. I was going education system in the media, and what was the toask a very similar question that theminister asked and criticism? give you a chance to give us more specific examples. I am not even concerned with things specifically that the * (2330) ministers may have said, but I want you to maybe talk about the whole package of their approach to education, Mr. Kyle: MadamMinister, I do not mean to point that the other bills that are coming in that are developing directly at you. It is more of a generic statement. But school choice, the effect of the balanced budget act, and just fo r an example, I can recall the Honourable Mr. all of their other proposals through their blueprint and Manness in terms of some testing that was being done­ someof thethings that are in those documents. I wonder just as an example-I believe it was a math test. Some ifyou could comment. students in some area on a particular day did poorly, and therewas public criticism from the ministry in the media, Mr. Kyle: Mr. Chairman, let us go back to the parent assuming he was quoted correctly. Not too long after councils. I am sure in the end after the dust settles down, that, there was a test in English-I think it was English. parentcouncils themselves will workout, but it was some Students did very well and his reaction was the test was of the documents that earlier came out. One of the things too easy. But it is that type of response in the media, that hit me-particularly as a parent-was that one of the whether intended ornot, that has made people like myself firstdrafts of the document, that as a teacher I could not say, why am I not being defended by the Ministry of even be on my own child's school parent advisory board, Education? That isnot tosay that we should not be taken and I wonder why. Things like that just might be little to to task; that is not to say that we have not done things you as legislators but certainly large to me. I guess just wrong. I am just saying that in the media, I think my tryingto answer your question, Ms. Cerilli, Bill 46-and ministry should be defending the public school system correctme ifI am wrong here-but I believe 46 deals with and not giving the impression rather, intended or not, that the opportunity of students to attend any school in the we are not doing our job. province.

Another case in point, Madam Minister, is when this Ms. Cerilli: 47. whole idea of standardized tests came out. We are finally having testing; we are finally having evaluation in the Mr. Kyle: Bill 47. Okay, I am not up to date totally in school. The implication to parents was, hey, we have not legislation. That sounds great. That sounds great fo r the beentesting before, but we all know that is incorrect. We opportunity of parents. But if you come fr om an inner­ certainly have been evaluating, have been evaluating fo r city school like we do and you have a parent working in 30 years, but that is what the public sees. It is not the Fort Garry who has the industry, and if I have to pay to public that has students in the school. I think anybody get my child to school anyway because the busing has 708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

beencut off,I might as well drive my child to the school a million dollars. Now, that must have been accounting down the street where I work in Font Gany, and, problems, but ifthat was during a time of an arbitration unfortunately, thattakes the grant moneywi1th it. I guess, hearing- in theend, I just donot believe that there should be have­ not divisions. I do not see any reason why there should Mr. Chairpenon: Honourable minister, we have a be a have-not division in Manitoba, because the grant minute. system should be such that every studenlt in Manitoba should be able to receive an equal amow1t of financial Mn. Mcintosh: In the bilL as you know, of course, that assistance from the provincial government. would not happen now because now the bill is fo rcing full financial disclosure to teachers' associations on Ms. Cerilli: Just further to that, you are the second everything so, I mean, that is a little different. teacher that has come before us as a fo rmer member of the governing party, and I think that that is a strong But what I would like to know is what you do not like statement in itself for the government, but: it still seems about the definition of abilityto pay and why you do not thatthe minister continuesto tryand sugges1t that teachers like the filirnessand grievance, because those are the fo ur are being ,misledand this bill really is not going to have things that cannot go to arbitration. Those are the the effectthat you are alltelling us it is going to have. So changes. Whatis it about them you do not like, and why J just want to give you a chance to expre!;s to us again do you not like it? yourco ncerns andwhy it is that you believ1� that this bill should be withdrawn. Mr. Kyle: First of all, as I said before, I do not believe thatany division should be in a situationwhere they can Mr. Kyle: First of all, I want to clarifYhere for me to say they do not have an ability to pay, because they publicly say that I am not a member of the Conservative should befman cially granted monies equally per student Party. I came from a fa mily that, before b1reakfast every by the province of Manitoba. What I really do not like morning, we had to say, I am a Conservative, I am a about it is because a division like Fort Gany, as an Conservative, and I do not mean to embrurrass anybody example,certainly at any tinle has a greater abilityto pay here, butto publiclysay that I have now left the party has than a division like Transcona simply because of its tax beenvery hard fo r me to do. I cannot tell a10ybody that I base. We cannot compete. have gone to another party because I do not see an alternative. I will be very honest with you. Mr. Chairpenon: Thank you very much fo r your presentation, Mr. Kyle. I fo rgot the other partof your question. Mr. Kyle: Thankyou fo r the opportunity. Mn. Mcintosh: Tell us what you do not like about the bill. Mr. Chairpenon: Theout-of -townpresenters have now madepresenta their tions, so we go back to the beginning Mr. Kyle: That iswhat you wantto hear about. I really of the list, and HilRob liard is the next presenter in order. believe this bill is dictatorial, Madam Minister. You may begin, Mr. Hilliard.

Mr. Chairpenon: It is the honourable minister that has Mr. Rob Hilliard (Manitoba Federation of Labour): just re-posed the question put by Ms. Cerillli. Mr. Chair, the Manitoba Federation of Labouris deeply concerned about the course that this government of Mr. Kyle: Okay. I believe it is dictatorial. because I do Manitoba is leading us on through Bill 72. We believe not believe-I believe that not my particular board at this that it has profound ramifications fo r both teachers as particular time, but I believe it is set up that boards can workers and the elementary school as a whole. in such a way construe the political, the financial situation in their division. I just thought, it came to In 1956, government, school boards and teachers mind, a coupleof years ago, if you recall, Fort Gany was mutuallyto agreed a trade-off In return for teachers and in a difficultfinancial situation and sudde111ly they found trustees giving up entitlement to the provisions of The October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 709

Manitoba Labour Relations Act, including the right to school boards offset the impact of eight years of strike or lockout, the government enacted The Public Conservative cutbacks to public school funding. The Schools Act. Under its terms, collective bargaining MFL suspects that Bill 72is the tool that the government disputes were resolved through binding arbitration. The is supplying to school boards to transfer that financial result was 40 years ofkindergarten to Grade 12 education pressure to teachers in future contracts. In other words, that was uninterrupted by work stoppages. All parties the government is cutting public spending in education were relatively content with the arrangement. and laying the groundwork fo r working people to absorb the fm ancial loss. While mandatory binding arbitration is rarely something pursued by many workers or their unions, it is There is an arbitrary nature to Bill 72 that offends all a process that teachers willingly entered into in a desire fa ir minded Manitobans. In 1956 teachers were to find a fa ir method of balancing the interests of consulted by the government of the day and they freely teachers, taxpayers, students and the general public. It is gave up their right to strike, no small sacrifice. Now in fo r that reason that the MFL supports requests from 1996 the Conservatives are acting unilaterally to break teachers andtheir union, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, thatagreem ent without restoring what teachers gav� up or that the government withdraw Bill 72. consulting with them to draft a different arrangement that meets the needs of both parties. This is wrong. The This is not to say that the existing Public Schools Act government knows this is wrong and Manitobans know cannotbe improved upon. However, that is a discussion it as well. that should occur in close consultation with teachers through their union and the Manitoba Association of How the Manitoba Teachers' Society and whatever School Trustees. number of school divisions the government decides to create will conduct collective bargaining will be greatly * (2340) different than it is today if the provisions contained in The MFL is suspicious about the context of the Bill 72 are enacted. government's legislative initiative. In the 1995 Manitoba general election the Manitoba Teachers' Society exercised First of all,by mandating that bargaining should begin its democratic right to free speech by undertaking a during the month of April, the government is ensuring public awareness campaign about education issues. This that teachers will be struggling to bargain wage and was not a partisan political exercise in the least. It was benefit increases after budgets have been approved and designed to raise teachers' concerns about the state of mill rates fo r the coming budget year have been education in the province at a time when Manitobans established. This is exactly backwards from the way it were about to elect the next government. Teachers not should be if genuine free collective bargaining was the only have a democratic right to undertake this kind of objective. Budgetary requirements and how they are communication through their union, there is compelling affectedby fair and good-faith contract negotiations must jurisprudence that describes their union's responsibility be known before budgets and mill rates are set. to do it. By settingApril as the month when teachers can begin It is well known that there was a great deal of to negotiate, the government is setting up one of two discussion about advertising paid fo r by MTS and other scenarios. unions during the provincial election at the 1995 Manitoba Conservative convention. It is also well Onthe one hand, the government is willingly creating known that delegates and members of the Conservative chaos fo r school boards, municipalities and taxpayers. caucus expressed outrage that teachers and others would Judging by the number of government MLAs who have have the temerity to voice their concerns this way. experience as school trustees or municipal councilors, we Indeed, some urged retribution. simply do not believe that to be the case. On the other hand, could the government be setting the scene fo r There is also concern that the government of Manitoba school boards to unilaterally control wage-and-benefit is embarking on legislative initiatives at this time to help negotiations with their teachers by setting a budget and 710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

mill rate and then declining to exceed it? This makes toharmooize schoolto budgets take into account different moresense to us, particularly in light of Billl 72 provision sized taxbases frcm division todi vision. This is the only thatrequires an arbitratorto be guided by "the ability to effectiveway under the property tax model to ensure that pay," thatis, the budgetand mill rate set by the employer. poorschool divisions and rich divisions are both able to pay a fa ir wage to education workers and to deliver high­ Evenallowing the parties to depart from this time line qualityeducatioo to students no matter where they live in through mutual agreement, we still have <;oncerns. All Manitoba. the employerhas to do to take advantage of the scenario thatwe have outlined is to withhold agreement, a virtual By directing thearbitrator to consider this definition of employerveto. In fuct, the entire time line for bargaining abilityto pay, the government is fo rcing the arbitrator to as setout in Bill 72 seems more a fa st-paced process that be an accomplice to school trustees that load the dice in leads quickly to arbitration than it does a process that their fa vour before bargaining begins. When trustees creates an atmosphere fo r good-faith bargaining. pass budgetsand set mill rates before the parties begin to bargain it amounts to bad-faith bargaining. They are Bill 72 removes from the arbitration J�rocess some predetermining the wage and benefit settlement before important, issues that are the Iegitimat1e domain of any attempt at negotiations has even taken place. The collective bargaining and most certainly alfe workplace provincial government is removing the teachers' last hope concerns that teachers have a right to be involved in. of a filirsettlement by directing the arbitrator to go along Issues suchas the selection, appointment, assignment and with the charade. transfer of teachers and principals; the: method for evaluatingthe perf onnanceof teachers and principals; the Section 129(1) of Bill 72 is anotherunusual aspect of size of classes in schools; and the scheduling ofrecesses an unusual bill. It appears that if the Minister of and themidday break, these important issues appearto be Education is still not happy with the arbitration process subjectto negotiation at the will and pleasure of school then the arbitrator can be directed to reconsider the boardsonly. Ifthere is noresolve at the bargaining table, award. Indeed, the award is deemed not to have been they cannotbe ref erred to arbitration and teachers cannot delivered to the minister until a reconsideration takes back up theirresolve with the withdrawal of services. All place. Just what does arbitration mean? In the that can occur is fo r teacher discontent to continue on experience of the MFL it does not mean an arbitration unresolved issues, poisoning the workplace for an award is flnal, but only ifthe government likes it. undetermined length of time. Removing mc:chanisms fo r the resolution of disputes does not eliminate the disputes, We areunsure what the intent of the government is by and disputes that linger and go umresolved are including this section in the bill, but we are uneasy that powderkegs waiting to go off. it can be used as a trap door by the employer and the government if, at the end of the day, they still do not like This provision hardly seems designed to promote fa ir the contract that teachers have been awarded. It seems working conditions and a harmonious relationship once again that the system is being designed to ensure betweenteachers and their employers. In OIUr experience that there can be only one possible outcome, that is, legislative frailties that leadto labour relations problems whatever theprovinc ial government wants the provincial mostoften the productof unanticipated challenges or are government will get, and all those who differ will be changing circumstances. One does not often see them ignored. intentionally built into legislation.

Anotheraspect of Bill 72 that we believe to be without At the outset of this brief the MFL voiced its concern precedent is theexplicit direction given to ar1 arbitratorto about the impact of this kind of legislation on public take into account ability to pay when the 1employer has school education. Aside from the obvious morale the abilityto set its own budget and flnanoe it through a problemcreated whena group of working people may be tax structure. Ability in this context means willingness in a climate where they fee l victimized by both the to pay. It also means willingness on the provincial employerand their government, there are critical dangers government's part to allocate sufficient funding in order to the system itself. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 711

The government is creating the circumstances where We are also concernedthat today's students will decide Bill 72, combined with the long-term decline in not to become teachers, penalizing future generations. provincial funding, will create school divisions with vastly different working conditions, wages and benefits. In support of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, and in This means that teachers will gravitate to school the interest of preserving some semblance of free divisions that negotiate superior contracts within collective bargaining, the MFL urges the government to Manitoba and outside of Manitoba. withdraw Bill 72, continue administering The Public Schools Act in its current form or return teachers to the Mr. Chairperson: You have now reached your 10 jurisdiction of The Manitoba Labour Relations Act. minutes. Doyou want to continue then do your question Thank you very much. and answer? Leave of the committee? [agreed] * (2350) Continue, Mr. Hilliard.

Mr. Pallister: , Thank you, Mr. Hilliard, for your Mr. Hilliard: The result will be unfairly different presentation, which I thinkwas well put and reasonable collective agreements within the province and higher for the most part. There is just one part that I wanted to levels ofeducation exceUence in wealthy school divisions ask you about that I do have to take some exception to, and a lower standard of education fo r school divisions sir. In reference to the advertising campaign of the witha populationbase made up primarily of middle- and Manitoba Teachers' Society, you make the statement, or lower-income residents. you make the implication, that members of the Conservative caucus urge retribution. It also has implications fo r future generations. A professionmarked with this kind of collective bargaining I amin daily contact withmembers of the Conservative practice, and what webelieve will be the result, will have caucus, and I have not heard a single member urge a more difficulttime attrac ting futureteach ers. The best, retribution, sir. So one of the things I had reinforced in most innovative students will be attracted to other my public school education was fairness, and I ask you, professions where it is more likely that they will be able if you have some charge to make, or some evidence that to earn a satisfactory standard of living in a more you want to put on the record, of a member of the congenial workplace. Conservative caucus specifically urging retribution to teacherssomehow, for something that is within their right Variations of Bill 72 have been enacted in other to do, and that they have every right to do, I ask you to jurisdictions, notably California and New Zealand. please put is on the record now or withdraw that Californiahas seen its quality of education decline over insinuation, if you would. the past twenty years from among the best in the United States to now among the worst. The government of Mr. Hilliard: I will put it on the record, Mr. Pallister. California has placed itself in the unenviable position of In a meeting that the Manitoba Federation of Labour having to take drastic action today to offset legislation table officers had with the Minister of Labour, Mr. Vic like Bill 72 enacted two decades ago. Among other measures, it has embarked on an aggressiveprogram of Toews-I believe it would have been last fa ll, I do not reducing the size of classrooms by hiring an additional recall the exact month-that was the first time when we became aware of the provisions that are now in Bill 26, 20,000 teachers. New Zealand, which adopted similar policies, is even now recruiting teachers in Canada which included a prohibition, or at least hurdles, put in because that country can no longer attract their brightest the path of labour organizations to participate in the citizens into that profession. political process. When we asked the minister specificallywhy that was there, he sat back in his chair and he said, manyof hiscaucus colleagues were unhappy The MFLfe ars that the government is embarking on a with the role the labour movement played in the last course that will encourage our existing teachers to look provincial election. When we asked him to explain what fo r work in another province or even another country. he meant by political activity, he said, like the ads that 712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 the nurses and the teachers ran in the last provincial am president of the Transcona-Springfield Teachers' election. Associatioo. I would like tothank the committee, even at this late hour, fo r the opportunity to present the Ms. Friesen: Thank you fo r the presentation. I thinkit comments on behalf of the association on Bill 72. is very good to have that clarification on the record, as well, of the attitude of at least one member of the We have teachers in our association, and I can tell Conservative caucus. 542 this committee thatthey stand united against Bill 72. I would also like to make it clear for the record that our I wanted to ask you about some specific: labour issues association of teachers joins with the other Manitoba that you have in here. One is the recolflsideration of teachers andThe Mani tobaTeachers' Society in opposing award. You are the fr rst presenter that has drawn that to Bill 72. We are all real teachers. In speaking to our attention, and I know that you have a lot of hundreds of mycolleagues, regardless of whether they are experience in negotiation and I wondered if you could new to the profession, whether they are at mid-career, expand on that for us. Do you know of any other whetherthey are closer to retirement, whether they teach jurisdictions where that takes place and wlltat the impact kindergarten, junior high band or senior high physics, I ofit has been? have never hebeencoun teredunited such resolve against Mr. Chairperson: We have 15 seconds. any governrnent educatioo initiative as their opposition to Bill 72. Mr. Hilliard: No, I am not aware of any other place where that hasa similarprovi sion. It, frankly, just seems The teachers of Transcona-Springfield wish to state toinvalidate the wholeprocess completely, as far as I am that Bill 72 legislates a bargaining and arbitration concerned, because it suggests that ifone of the parti�s process thatis fundamentally not fa ir. Bill 72 is not just doesnot like theaward theyhave the ability to change tt, a me-time freeze or a rollback of wages and benefits. It but only one of the parties. doesnot addressa particular revenue shortfall in any one year. Rather, Bill 72 sets up rules that will never again Mr. Chairpenon: You would have to get leave, Ms. allow teacher associations to bargain fa irly. This law Render, ifyou want to put a question. becomes permanent and will be applied to teacher You wanted a question too, Ms. Cerilli? bargaining processes year after year.

Ms. Cerilli: Yes. In the last fo ur years, the Manitoba government has reduced funding to Manitoba public schools by $43 .5 Mr. Chairpenon: Is leave granted for either, each, million. This reduction is particularly puzzling in light both. of PremierGary Filmon's COitlll1e2ltsin the Throne Speech Debate, December 15, 1995, where he said, last year, in Some Honourable Members: Leave. '94, ourgrowth rate was 3.8 percent, this year in 1995 it isexpected to be 2.5 percent, which is going to be above An Honourable Member: No, neither. the national average. The Manitoba economy in every area is doing well and doing better than in most areas of Mr. Chairperson: It hasto beunanimou s. Leave is not Canada. granted, I am sorry. Thank you, Mr. Hilliard.

We now like to call-we are approaching twelve yet, not too many eeksw ago, the Premier said in a _ o'clock, so maybe it is good now to canvass, and I will meetingin St Vital, I believe, that teachers were patd 25 call out the names. Henry Wedel. [interjection] Would percent toomuch. When hewas challenged he said, weiI, _ you like topresent? You maystart now then. Begin your no that is just 15 percent too much. Now, that ts presentation, sir. particularly puzzling in light of the co�en� that he made regarding the sort of a flush sttuabon that Mr. Henry Wedel (Transcona Teachen' Manitoba's economy is in and in light of the budget Association): Thank you. My name is Hf:nry Wedel. I surplus that the Manitoba governmentran lastyear. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 713

From 1992 to 1996, Transcona-Springfield School Finally, Bill 72 will have a profoundly negative effect Division has seen its funding from the province reduced on Manitoba. Some divisions, and we have heard this by $3 million. I am also puzzled by that in light of the manytimes this evening, will maintain a superior ability comments I have heard this evening from the minister to pay while others in poor areas will not. The results thatgovernment this has somehow increased funding, and will be that the best, the brightest, the most creative, the yet our funding in the last fo ur years has gone down $3 most talented teachers will leave the poorer divisions and million. I fm d it difficult to sort of equate that. go elsewhere. Widely dispirit wages and working conditions from one region to another will ensure this Under Bill 72 an arbitrator must base his or her disastrous result. A fundamental tenet of the public decision primarily on the division's ability to pay. Now, school system has been, continues to be hopefully, that this is apparently being amended, but the ability to pay all Manitoba children should have access to a good solid remains a restriction fo r any arbitrator. The school education regardless of where they live or how wealthy division's ability to pay is based on its local levy and on their parents are. Bill 72 will destroy that equality of government revenues, thus, in spite of government's opportunity. Eventually, under Bill 72 low teacher assurances that Manitoba's economy is doing well in morale in this province will discourage undergraduates every area, it unilaterally has decided to reduce the fr om entering the teaching profession. Many teachers division's ability to pay and can continue to do so each will seek employment in other provinces or other year. The arbitrator, under the new rules of Bill 72, will countries. have no choice but torubber-stamp the government's and board's decision. This, ladies and gentlemen, is not Simply put, Bill 72 is a bad piece oflegislation. Its bargaining, and you certainly cannot call it arbitration. unfortunate results will be fe lt across Manitoba. The An arbitrator or arbitrators must be given leeway based teachers of the Transcona-Springfield association urge on the needs and circumstances presented by both sides the government to turn back from such ill-advised action at an impartial and binding arbitration process. Bill 72 and stop Bill 72. It is retrogressive, unfair and harmful. will fo rce the arbitrator to take into account the impact of Thank you. his or her award on services-example, reduction of programs or layoffs. The clear implication seems to be Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Mr. Wedel. Honourable that teachers' salaries, benefits and working conditions minister, and then Ms. Cerilli. will need to be sacrificed in order to preserve programs in the division. Again, this seems blatantly unfair. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Mr. Wedel. I am noticing a sort of common thread that has been mentioned in a lot of the presenters tonight, and I would Bill 72 eliminates the selection, the appointment and like to get your opinion on it. There has been a lot of transfers of teachers and principals, class sizes, recess reference in your brief and in others to the fa ct that in and noon hour schedules from arbitration. This also is 1956 teachers exchanged the rightto strikefo r tenure and not fuir. Other labour groups have the right to negotiate binding arbitration. That, as I recall, historically was items like this. Removing these items from the normal something that teachers sought. It sort of sounds almost scope of bargaining is a fundamental breach of trust. In like it was a big sacrifice, but it was something teachers 1956, Manitoba teachersagreed to be excluded fromThe eagerly sought, that they preferred this to strike. Now, Labour Relations Act in exchange for binding arbitration. you know, historically you can go back and check the Under that agreement all items related to teachers' records, but I believe that is the correct interpretation of benefits and working conditions could be pursued history on this. So I do not believe it was a sacrifice from through negotiations and arbitration. To limit or narrow what I have been understanding, but now I hear that the scope of arbitration now without giving teachers the because of Bill 72 it would be better, I think I am hearing option of returning to the governance of The Labour you say you would rather be under The Labour Relations Relations Act is a fundamental violation of that agree­ Act. ment.

Okay, that is correct, and I hear applause in the * (0000) audience. 714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

So I guess the question I amasking you is, would you back to the government because future cuts would mean rather, then, takeaway whatyou have got now completely they would not be able to run it any longer. and put you under The Labour Relations Act like any other employer group, give you back the right to strike Now, we have certainly seen negative effects in our that you seem to now be indicating you bad to give up school division. We have lost counsellors in all of our against yourwill and live bythat instead of by The Public elementaryschoo ls. We have had cuts to caretakers. We Schools Act? Take you out of The Publi1; Schools Act have lost paraprofessionals. We had one school with and put you-that is the threat I am hearing here. I am increased enrollment lose three and a half teachers. We wondering ifyou could tell me, is that what you andyour have had libraries closed on alternate days. In some teachers' association are seeking? schools they have been locked, the lights have been out. We have lost a number of teachers in the last two years. Mr. Wedel: Well, we are not seeking that, but this is a We have had larger class sizes. We have lack of question that you might perhaps wish to ask teachers in equipment and, believe me, we do have low teacher light of Bill 72. morale. I listen to these teachers each and every day, and thatis a reality. So in spite of all the assurances that this bill is not harmful, our teacher morale is low, our Mrs. Mcintosh: I am asking it. You are a teacher programs are being negatively affected. representing your association, and I amaslking you. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thatis becausethey have been told the Mr. Wedd: You might wantask to teachers collectively bill is harmful. across Manitoba. I am not able to speak for teachers across Manitoba, but I can assure you that at the time Mr. Wedd: Thatis absolutely not true. They have read when wegave up theright to strike we got something fair it. Our teachers are literate and they can read and they in exchange for it. Now the government is proposingto can see fo r themselves, and they are very, very, take away half of the equation but not giv'e us the other concerned. half even toconsider it, and we think that is a fundamen­ tally unfair premise on the part of the government. Mrs. Mcintosh: Good. That is very helpful.

Ms. CeriiU: Thankyou for your presentation. I want to Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Cerilli, you had another askyou some questions specific to Transcona-Springfield question. School Division. A number of presenters have made references to have-not school divisions, andTranscona­ Ms. CeriiU: Yes. I also wanted you to comment on this Springfield is, in some ways, a have-not with very low, whole issueof being able togrieve issues around working especially for a suburban division, assessment, and they conditions and to compare that with this ability-to-pay have hightransportation costs, but they have some of the clause, and I think that the presentation earlier from the lowest per-pupil costs in the province. I am wondering Manitoba Federation of Labour laid this issue out very if you have had meetings with the trustees in the clearly. I amwond ering how teachers that you represent Transcona-Springfield School Division to discuss this would see that. bill and ifyou have a sense of the effectsthat it is going to have in Transcona-Springfield. Mr. Wedel: Question.

Mr. Wedel: I can assure you that th'e trustees of Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Cerilli, or do you want to Transcona-Springfield, in my discussion with them, are question backto Ms. Cerilli. appalled at the underfunding of the government for our school division. Theyconcur with us that the funding for Mr. Wedd: I thought you hadanother question for me. Transcona-Springfield has become practicallly untenable, Okay, in response, teachers absolutely want thesethings and a trustee, perhaps in jest, perhaps seriously, remarked to be arbitrable. I am not sure where anyone heard to me in passing just a fe w days ago tha:t perhaps the anything else. I heard a MAST representative say before, trustees ought to take the entire division and transfer it in the ftrst presentation of the evening, that they agree October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 715

with Bill 72,that these items should not be arbitrable, yet We have fou nd the process of conciliation and binding they do not want to be held accountable, and that seems arbitration thatwe fo llow to be fa ir and reasonable fo r the to me a completely untenable and unfair position on their fo llowing reasons: we bargain in good fa ith; we are part. I was very disappointed in the MAST response on honest in sharing our concerns; and we start on a level that one. In other words, if the board acts unfairly and playing field. Neither sidehas anadvantage as a result of unreasonably, they do not want teachers to have the right restrictions placed on the other or on the process. to grieve that. Second, conciliation may be requested by either party and, where discussions get intense or frustrat ing, the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Wedel. service of a conciliator allows the parties to maintain a good working relationship outside the bargaining Next presenter will be Donald Teet. I need the environment. Third, an arbitrator, ifrequired, views the translators back. whole matter with new eyes. He or she is not biased by any previous interactions. Finally, we are able to discuss Ms. Cerilli: We agreed at the outset of the committee all matters openly. Working and learning conditions, tonight that there would not be a calling of names after wages andthe manner in which employees are trejlted as midnight. It is- individuals are of equal importance to both parties.

Theproposed Bill 72 claims to be a fair document. In Mr. Chairperson: This is being honoured, Ms. Cerilli. a September 20, 1996 letter to River Heights I am well aware of the agreement of the committee. If constituents, MLA Mike Radcliffe quotes the Minister of someone does not respond, they will not be dropped from Education's (Mrs. Mcintosh) claim that Bill 72, quote, the list, but ifsomeone wants to come fo rward we are provides a fa irness and balance fo r teachers. Let us take going to hear them. That was the arrangement. a look at the fa irness issue with reference to the points that I made earlier. Ms. Cerilli: Okay, I just want to make it clear to presenters then that they have the option to present Bill 72 prohibits bargaining in good fa ith. When a tonight or not, andthe reading was that they would not be board comes to the table, having already decided how dropped even once to the bottom of the list. much is budgeted fo r salaries, are they in fact truly negotiating? Their decision has been made as a result of Mr. Chairperson: That is correct, Ms. Cerilli. the government grant. What board would budget an increase in their salary line before employee groups Mr. Teet, you may begin your presentation. request it? As in any business or organi:iation, or government fo r that matter, the needs are assessed and Mr. Donald Teel (WinnipegTeachers' Association): then a budget is prepared to meetthe nee ds. Bill 72 takes Thank you, honourable members of the Legislative this practice andreverses it, tying the hands of the board Assembly, as constituted in this committee, and fe llow and creating unfairness fo r teachers. This process may Manitobans. encourage school boards toconsider rollbacks in teachers wages as a way to maintain programs. In other words, I am here to speak on behalf of the members of the teachers will pay fo r education rather than taxpayers Winnipeg Teachers' Association. We are a group of paying fo r education. Implementation on the time lines approximately 3,000 teachers, lab assistants, clinicians mandated by Bill 72 will be unfair to teachers-this, and consultants employed by the Winnipeg School acknowledging what the minister announced this evening. Division No. I. Parenthetically, we are also the largest teachers' association in Manitoba. Our history of * (0010) collective bargaining has been a positive one. Our negotiating committees meet to discuss real issues that Bill 72 limits arbitration in fo ur areas: selection, cause concern to us, that affect the morale and the well­ appoinbnent, assignment and transfer of teachers and being ofour members and thatimpact on the education of principals; evaluation; class size; and the scheduling of our students. recess and the mid-day break. Three of these issues deal 716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

with working and learning conditions or the welfare of arbitrators to consider ability to pay may result in the individuals. These issues are of great concern to making decisions that are better left to elected officials. teachers. The fa ct that they are not arbitrable precludes Section 129(4)(a) specifically states that an arbitrator any meaningful discussion of these issues. Present shall consider services that may have to be reduced and policies and practices in these areas will never be tested may, in fa ct, decide that a reduction is appropriate in fo r equity and fa irness by a neutral third party. Inability awarding an arbitratioo. Political decisions should not be to resolve these issues at the bargaining table creates made by an individual who is not answerable to the unfilimess for teachers. We should not confuse a board's electorate. Are we taking powers away from our elected ability to manage with fa ir and reasonablt� management officials? They already raise the ire of taxpayers when practice-the pause is deliberate. Mrs. Mcintosh states they must pass on the news that provincial grants have that the clause ensuring boards act fa irly and reasonably deaeasedand school taxes must go up to meet the needs in administering their policies and practice is a safeguard of ow students. Bill 72 is not fa ir to anybody involved at fo r teachers. This is only the case if the� policies and this point. practice in question areof themselves fa ir and reasonable. Policies and practices are changed regulady by a single Finally, Bill 72 restricts our ability to bring all issues motion at the school board meeting, frequently without to resolution at the bargaining table. The stated ' regard to long-term implications or consequences, but nonarbitrable items deal with how individuals are treated rather under pressure of time or political lobby. and with working conditions. Where working conditions deteriorate, learning conditions also deteriorate. These Are we really only examining the fa irness and are the very types of fairn ess issues upon which the reasonableness of how a board carries out their own practice of arbitration is fo unded. rules? We need a process to determine the fairn ess of policy and practice. Bill 72 does not pmvide such a Whenworkers firstrecognized needthe to organize in process and in fa ct sets up a situation that is unfair to orderto bargain with their employers, it was a time when teachers. Teachers must be able to griev·e not only the employers were often cruel, callous and exploiting, to fa ir implementation of policy but also the underlying quote Tom Oleson in an article dated May 26, 1996, in fa irness of the policies themselves. the Winnipeg Free Press. However melodramatic this may appear to you, our association has many members Conciliation prior to arbitration allows fo r the who have voiced theircooce rn and, indeed, fee l exploited exploration of options and possible alternatives that are with the ever-increasingrespons ibilities and expectations agreeable to both sides of a negotiation. Bill 72 placedon them, both in and out of the classrooms. They effectively renders conciliation an improbable route to the fee l the currentproposed legislation constitutes a callous resolution of negotiations as it relies on mutual consent. disregard of basic fairn ess in collective bargaining. It virtually ensures the service of a mediator who then must don the hat of an arbitrator; an arbitrator who has Inour school di\'ision, we have resorted to arbitration seen both parties at their worst and weakes1t, so to speak; only twicein 20 years. Thesearbitrations foc used mainly anarbitrator whois only human after all and will struggle on working conditions and only average salary increases not to bebiased bythe emotion andcandow that rises out were awarded. The last arbitration in 1991 gave us a of mediation. Or, perhaps, bothparties will be able to duty-free lunch and a clause on limiting increases in suppress that candour and emotion and guardedly save workload Teachers of todayneed a collective bargaining their best arguments fo r arbitration. Will we still be process that will ensure they are negotiating in a system bargaining in good fa ith? Will this be a fa ir process? that is not biased against them and their legitimate Where is the incentive to compromist� during the aspirations. Bill 72 undermines an already effective, fa ir mediation phase of the process? Perhaps we should go and balanced process. directly to arbitration? This bill is being condemned across the country as an Should the arbitrator ultimately have to decide on the unparalleledsingling out of teachers. We ask why this is issues, Bill 72 restricts the fa irness of his or her ability to happening? The needs of Manitoba students are being arbitrate. The unprecedented directive imposed upon met by a highly skilled and qualified body of October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 717

professionals. Teachers have the support of parents and adviceon implementing government cuts to education in the communities in which we serve. Treat us fa irly. If School Division No. 1. But I wonder if you could give this is truly the government's intention, then on behalf of us some indication of the implication and effects of cuts the Winnipeg Teachers' Association, I ask you to reflect from your perspective, that is from the perspective of a on the issues that we have raised. In the absence of any teacher. major revision, we urge you to oppose this unfair and unbalanced legislation. Mr. Teel: From the perspective of a teacher, I have observed the same sort of deterioration of services and Thank you fo r your time and consideration. resources that previous speakers have noted. I am not going to wasteever ybody's time at this hour. I have also Mr. Chairperson: Thanks fo r your presentation, Mr. noted, fo r example, in Winnipeg No. 1 School Division, Teet. the reduction ofnursery the program after great debate by the board to an 80 percent program. That decision is up Mrs. Render: I am not too sure whether I have fo r reconsideration the fo llowing year. Also, discussions understood one of your points here. You seem to be again on reduction of transportation of students · to suggesting that mediation is not a good way to go. You programs, language programs and other programs where use the word "biased". You seem to be presenting a right now transportation is provided fo r parents. In the rather negative outlook that a mediator is not going to be future, again, due to finances, due to the increasing cuts good. Am I interpreting what you are saying correctly? from the provincial government to school divisions, we are having trouble maintaining thatsort of service. Those Mr. Teel: Mr. Chair, in the context of the proposed are really the two specific items that I can bring about model, we find that the mediation-arbitration route with Winnipeg No. l School Division. Again, not to proposed, where the mediator is actually the arbitrator, belabour the point, but other speakers have already said takes away some of the flexibility that both parties have what I would say about classroom conditions. during the mediation process when in fa ct you go to an arbitrator who is another individual. Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you fo r your presentation. One ofthe goals of many trustees is when they are looking at Mrs. Render: Perhaps after I could just explain to you budget reductions, with the sort of sense that we are the difference between conciliation-arbitration and going to try andminimize the impact on children, they are mediation-arbitration, both routes have their good and going to cut virtually everything else but the classroom. · their bad points. May I just let you know that your own Can you tell us, how does that really impact on the MTS society also suggested a change, and they have classroom teacher and, you know, all of the things. I suggested adding a mediation process. The Teachers' mean, you cut resource, you cut-go ahead, from your Society actually had made that recommendation. They perspective. fe lt that there was value to a mediation process.

Mr. Teel: Yes, in fa ct, before I returned to a school, I Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Teet in response. was a program consultant fo r the Winnipeg School Division. As a result of funding cuts, the trustees took a Mr. Teel: Yes, I am quite aware of the issue that Mrs. decision to reduce support services. One of the things I Render raised. Again, I return to pointmy that the new did was I worked with teachers who requested help model is one that the Winnipeg Teachers' Association within, in my case, French immersion or basic French opposes fo r the specific reason that having the mediator classrooms. I also helped administrators when there was become an arbitrator and having heard all of the a teacher in difficulty, and I was asked to come in and arguments, prejudice is the result of the arbitration. help support the teacher. I provided those sorts of Thank you. services. Very often parents only saw me if I did an Ms. McGifford: Mr. Teel, thank you fo r your evening presentation at the school however regarded the presentation. Since I regularly attend the southend service that I and the other complement of consultants at Parents Advisory Committee, I was present when parents the time provided to the schools as being essential to were agonizing last spring about how to give trustees supporting learning and teaching in classrooms. 718 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

I think it is reductionist thought, it is Luddite at the Mr. Chairpenon: Your time is up now. Thank you. very worst, to think that one teacher and 30 children in a Thanks very much fo r your presentation. Mr. Ron classroomwith adequate materials is all you needever in Munro. Is Ron Munro here? Mr. Munro, welcome. aneducation system. I think there are all sorts of players behindthe scenes in ourschool divisions, and the funding Point of Order that the province and that the levy in property taxes assures to school divisions should be able to build in and Ms. Cerilli: Ona point of order, I want to again remind account for that type of support ifwe nt::ed to have a you of the agreement that we made at the outset tonight, growing,progressive education system in Manitoba. which was not to call the names but was to canvass the room and have an indication made by the presenters, if they wanted to present tonight, that they would be then Ms. Mihychuk: Is the province then responsible for put uponto the list to make theirpresentation tonight. So providing those consultant services to those teachers in I am not suggesting that we do not want to hear Mr. the classroom? Munro. Actually, I really want to hear Mr. Munro.

Mr. Teel; My response to that is yes. Mr. Chairpenon: Can we hear Mr. Munro and then discuss this later? * (0020) Ms. Cerilli: I do not want to have all the presenters sit here thinking that this is the way that we agreed to go. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you fo r your presentation. I Will you please, Mr. Chairperson- wonderyou if couldindicate to me what your impression is of thefinancial situatioo in Manitobaas it relates to the Mr. Chairpenon: Please-through the Chair. Order, international bond rating agencies and lhe Canadian please. Through the Chair. First, Ms. Cerilli, you have scene. Inother words, we knowthat they measure credit made your point. Ms. Friesen wanted to make a point, ratings in tenths of a percentage point a111d that is $3 and then Mr. Pallister wanted to make one. million, anda percentagepoint is $30 miHion. Areyou aware of what they are saying about what Manitoba, Ms. Friesen: It was a similar point. I think we are Saskatchewan-we will just deal with Maruitoba because looking for certainty for those people who are in the it is saying the same thing to all province:s-as to what audience, and so an indication of how many people are they think we should be doing in order to not to be going to present I think is what we had agreed to. I having to spend that $30 million that comes with every realize that you are proceeding on a different basis, but percentage point change in our credit rating? thatissue of how many people are goingto present, what time are we likely to finish, I think was the certainty we Mr. Teel: To respond to the minister's question, in fact, were looking fo r. yes, I am very aware. I am becoming quite a keen observer of investments. In fact, every time Mr. Mr. Pallister: On the point of order raised by Ms. Stefanson or Mr. Filmon makes a stateme1nt about how Cerilli, that was not my understanding. My under­ well the Manitoba economy is doing, I as a Manitoban standing was, andwe perhaps canvisit the- rej oice. As I seeinterest rates declining, I also think that thathelps ourprovincial economy too, because it reduces Ms. Cerilli: The other night you violated an agreement debt carrying costs. I congratulate the government for that you made sitting at- having addressed this issue. I also think though that when I see a government that we do not have a deficit-I Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. looked at some of your own information that indicated you havean operating surplus. I think that when we have Mr. Pallister: Perhaps, Mr. Chair, ifI could suggestin mademuch this headway,we should look at what are our the interests of flared tempers, et cetera, that we revisit priorities for the system. What canwe do? Where do we the minutes. My understanding of the agreement we need these services? I also think that- reached was somewhat different from Ms. Cerilli's, and October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 719

I believe other members of the committee may not share would not call names, that we would canvass the her view on this. Perhaps we could revisit the minutes as audienceand askfor a show of hands, as we did the other tothe agreement that we made, which my understanding night, to see who wanted to make their presentations waswe would be calling people and that they would not tonight and we would hear those individuals. There bebumped as a consequence, after midnight, of fa iling to would no calling of names, I specifically said. speak, but that we would continue to call the names in order of the persons registered to speak, to allow those Mr. Chairperson: Can I suggest this, to accommodate who have persevered and are here to present ifpossible, Ms. Cerilli, that point and what appears to be an regardless of the fact that some members of the expectation that there would be a canvassing? How committee may wish to terminate the discussions. I do manyin theroom now wish topresent tonight, would you not, and I do not believe those who are here to speak do pleaseindicate? Okay, we have a very substantial show not. of hands. The clerk will now get those names, so you will not be missed and please put your names down and Mr. Chairperson: Ms. McGifford, on the same point of thenthe commitment is you will have a chance to present order. this morning. Thank you very much fo r your eo­ operation, members of the committee andpresente rs. Ms. Cerilli: It is on the record, canvass the House.

* * * Ms. McGifford: It is on the same point of order, Mr. Chairman, and I want to suggest that Mr. Pallister is Mr. Chairperson: Now, Mr. Munro, you have been imputing motives to me. I am happy to stay here as long very patient standing there, probably delighted to be as presenters wantto, as long as presenters wish to make standing for a while, would you please begin your theirpresenta tions. The point that we are trying to make presentation. is to have fidelityto a process that we understoodto have been established earlier in the evening and my Mr. Ron Munro (RiverEast Teachers' Association): understanding of the process was exactly that of my Thankyou. I cometo youon behalf ofthe teachers of the colleague fo r Radisson, Ms. Cerilli. So I endorse Mr. RiverEast SchoolDivision. For those of you who are in Pallister's motion or suggestion that we revisit the thecity will recognize it as the second largest division in minutes. the citywith about 900 teachers, 13,000 students. We represent a large number. Mr. Chairperson: I havejust revisited the closest thing to a minute-taker, the clerk, and the understanding that * (0030) the clerk had was that at 12 midnight we would revisit where we were, and all of those who wanted to present I am going to speak to you tonight about the spirit in aftermidnight would be given that privilege, which, I am which I think Bill 72 has beenprepared and presented. adding towhat the clerk's understanding was, implicit in Otherpeople before me have done a very adequate, very that as we discussed previously is that anyone who was eloquent job of speaking to many of the potential not available, was in sequence on the list, would not be outcomes of this, so I do not need to include them. Bill dropped off thelist. So that is the understanding, that is 72is an attempt by the government of Manitoba to bring the ruling, that is the agreement as we have recorded, management control and accountability to the realm of other thanchec king Hansard which we cannot do. I rule education. Unfortunately, Bill 72, ifimplemented in its without further discussion on the issue on the point of present form, will create a step backwards in terms of order. That is the agreement and- justiceand fitir play in the treatmentof teachers and in the process of democracy itself as it pertains to the Ms. McGifford: No, that was not the agreement. educational community.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, again. Section 131.4(1 ), Obligation to act fa irly, states that " I explicitly on a point of order at the outset of the a school board shall act reasonably, fa irly and in good committeeasked it tobe recorded on the Hansard that we faith in administering its policies and practices ...." 720 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, I 996

That section is commendable in its intent. The problem School boards will find very little reason to discuss with it is that much of the rest of Bill 72 does quite the matters teacherswith aftera government, the government opposite. In combination with several other bills that of Manitoba, hastold themthey do not have to do so, and have come beforethe House, fo r example 47 and 33, it is therefore that process becomes one-sided. At issue also improbable that fa ir and reasonable could be applied to is the nature of society in which we choose to live. whatever is left of the bargaining process. Democracy is built on the concept that everything is negotiable and debatable, and Section 126(2) is a limit ondemocracy, a limit on debate. It is the fm e edgeof an Parts of Bills 33 and 47 pertain to school plans, autocratic workplace. Surely you do not want to do this consultations with parent councils, the settilng of budgets. to us or to yourselves. All ofthose activities have to be completed by the end of March, as stated in Bill 4 7, so that the budget proposals Section 126( 1 ), Statement of matters referred, is also could be presented to the province on March 31 of that flawed. It contains limits which are undemocratic. They year. By itself that does not seem like suc;h a bad thing, are unfair. They are unreasonable. A further erosion of however that activity does not travel alone, and it has public democratic decision making is fo und in 126( 1 )(b). some sister activities that create a problem. A That isstatement the in Bill 72 which gives the Minister noteworthy peril fo r teachers is related to the timing of of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), however wise she may be, it-and people have spoken to this already. It is the the power to interfere in the negotiating process when it timing oftheir ability tonegotiate afterdivisio nal budgets says in (b) part, the minister "may amend or add to the have been struck. statement at any time before the arbitrator makes an award." In other words, you canchange the rules of the Now please note that the teachers groups-and I had game while the game is going on. A very interesting "are not permitted" and now you have made an amend­ game, but there is no credibility in the process of ment tonight and say "may not be amendc:d". I say, big bargaining here. deal. Through thenegotiations that I have gone through, one of ourstumbling blockswith the boards and the parts Section 127(9), titled Weight of evidence, also flies in of our contracts has been this nice little fight about the the fa ce of justice. That is the one that says you do not words "may, shall and will." Whenever you have the have to give fullproof What kind of a justice system are word "may" in there you bloody well know that the board we tryingput to forward here? When you are bargaining, is going topress it and ittake some other direction except both sides have to give proof "shall." So it is a big problem. The flaws in thepreviously mentioned sections lead us I doubt that real and honest bargaining will ever to thatmost exasperating one, the one that you have been becOme possiblewith this bill. Also in qm:stion is, to its talking about fo r a fa ir while tonight, 129(3), Ability to degree ofbeing reasonable and fa ir let alone democratic, pay, and also 129(4), because you were not quite done, Section 126(2), titled Matters not referable fo r Otherfactors . Again, taken at fa ce value, we should not arbitration. Teachers bring items to a bargaining table in do anything that we cannot afford, whether we are an order to produce an optimum learning environment fo r individual ora govenunent But is that really the concept the students. I mean, that is what we are lhere fo r. that you are working with here? Anyone can create a scenario where you are able to demonstrate the Teachers are the best people to describe and assess affordability of one thing and the lack of affordability of matters which impact on their ability to teach because another thing. It is really a question of choices. To use they are in fa ct the frontline troops who are doing the a very sad analogy in this case, alcoholics make choices. teaching andassessing the results of that t(:aching. They They makechoice a between that booze that they want or must, therefore, through the bargaining, maintain an the food , clothing and shelter that they andtheir fa milies ability to address the concerns through a fa ir and a need. We know that they do not always make the right reasonable bargaining process. By making some items choices; they do not always make good choices. With nonarbitrable, as you have done in Bill 72, the this bill, the choices will be driven by one idea, just one government is in fa ct making them non-negotiable. idea only, and that is less dollars fo r public education. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 721

A more suitable topicfo r this section would be willing­ shoulder the burden of educating young people in our ness to pay. You have heard that before. As with any community. And those are the words of an arbitrator. category of choices in life, what we must determine is the value of the choices before us. Education is a national Many parts ofBill 72, and especially the ability-to-pay asset; its fm al value is difficult to assess because statement, are neither fa ir nor reasonable, if you take a individuals make varied use of it as an asset. There is, look at those lines. We do not need an ability-to-pay however, a very direct correlation between the quantity section in order to make education accountable, the and quality of educationfo und in a nation, our part of the weight of evidence we need to continue with when it nation, such as Manitoba, and that nation's place in the comes to decision making. In order to be a fa ir and world as we describe it the terms "developed, developing reasonable process fo r bargaining, there must be fa ir or underdeveloped." Now, many years ago, our nation negotiation time lines. Teachers must be able to present and our province made a conscious choice to fund public their cases before budget decisions and working condition education. As a result, we are at the top group of the decisions are made. developed nations in this world. In order to remain there, near the top, we have to continue to make conscious In summary, in conclusion, we submit that the choices to fund public education properly. presentation of Bill 72 in its present fo rm is a mistake. School boards and teacher groups already have a At this time, I am going to refer to some words from workable mechanism by which they can seek resolution Mr. John Scurfield, who was the chair of our contract of differences. The current mechanism contains the arbitration fo r River Eastlast June. He spoke to the issue ability to bring any and all issues to the table, and this of pay scales and the willingness of schoolboards and the characteristic is critical to the maintenance of an general public to do what would we be called fa ir and insightful public school system. reasonable. I am going to leave out a lot of the text, not because it goes against what I choose to quote, it surely For those issues that are brought to the table that are supports it, but because a fe w lines will do the job. money issues, the imposition of Bill 72 is both unnecessary and punitive. Bargaining groups have Inhis arbitration decision given in June '96, this is not always been made aware of a division's ability and very old history, he said several of the fo llowing: There willingness topay fo r services. Settlements over the past is little or no fa t left to trim from the teachers' few years demonstrate the willingness and ability of professional diet. Their real pay package has declined teachers to do their share in the curtailment of costs. roughly 17 percent, and their responsibilities have increased. You have heard a number of people talk about It hasbecome painfully apparent to teachers that much that. of what is contained in Bill 72 and several other bills is not a well-intentioned maneuver by the provincial He goes on: We have nothing but sympathy fo r the government to get its financial house in order but rather honest attempts of a school board to maintain quality and a politically motivated attack on the ability of working balance a budget which is by now devoid of obvious people, in this case teachers, tomaintain some reasonable waste. control over the management and operation of their workplace. Bill 72 would create a bargaining process Further: Teachers cannot escape fiscal realities, but that could never bedescribed as a level playing field. As they should not be asked to shoulder the entire burden of such, it is extremely unfair, and because of the arguments decisions to reduce funding by senior governments. presented by myself here and people before me, we urge Again, it is difficult to conceive of how the offer by the the government of Manitoba to either withdraw Bill 72 or teachers to accept zero percent could be portrayed as significantly modifY its fo rm so that it can become a fa ir umeasonable. That is what we went to the arbitration and reasonable exercise of political decision making. board with; the school board went with negative 3. A decision which is supported solely by the object of Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Mumo. avoiding a tax increase is inherently a political decision, and, finally, taxpayers, not teachers, must be prepared to * (0040) 722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Mrs. Render: Thankyou fo r your presentation. I gather Statement of reference-! shall read into the record. that you much prefer the current legislation as it stands Current act, where theminist er- and not what is before you right now. Is that a correct assumption? Mr. Munro: This is a long question.

Mr. Munro: That would be a fa ir asswnption. There Mrs. Render: Well, you said that you were not too may be acouple of problems with what is there now, but sure- I think you would be better to tinker with that. Mr. Chairperson: You had a l 0-minute presentation; Mrs. Render: I gather that among your problems you she is making it. seem to be saying, as Mr. Hilliard had said before, that you feel that the legislation is now going to allow the Mrs. Render: -thatit was in here, so I want to reassure minister to interfere, not with the appointment of the you that this is what the act is saying: "Where the arbitrator, but canmake statements or amend or do things minister has appointed a board of arbitration, he shall to the arbitrator's statement. Are you

So I guess what I am asking you, if these, a statement Mr. Chairperson: Do you have a question, Mrs. of reference and recommendation of an award have been Render? in the current act, why all of a sudden do you see a problem when you have not seen aproblem in the past? Mn. Render: So, as I say, I just wanted to check with Mr. Munro: I have not actually read the current act all you. You seemedsatisfied with the current act, and I just that carefully. I have read it, but it has be.en some time wantedto knowwhy youraised that particular point with ago. I doubt that in there, quite frankly, i1t says that the the present legislation when it was already in the current minister can interfere. act.

Mrs. Render: Well, let me just read into the record. Mr. Munro: I said I was satisfied with most of the currentact. Youhave justpointed out one part that I find "Recommendation of award. After a board of that I am not all that satisfied with. It needs to be arbitration has made its award the minister may direct it changed in the old act as well. to reconsider, and clarifY m amplifYthe award or any part thereof, or to consider and decide on any new matter Mr. Chairperson: We have 13 seconds left. added to the statement of matters referred to it, and the award of the board of arbitration shall not be deemed to Thank you very much fo r your presentation, Mr. be received by the minister until the rec onsideration Munro. award is received." Mr. Murray Grafton? Mr. Murray Grafton. Actually, under the new act, Mr. Munro, the wording is tame somewhat. Now the minister may do so only at the request of either party. Ms. Friesen: Point of order, Mr. Chair. October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 723

An Honourable Member: Trina Gordon? Boniface Teachers' Association; but I am first of all a teacher. I started teaching in St. Boniface in 1975, and I Mr. Chairperson: No, we have now a list, and the list have been a full-time teacher since then. fo r the benefit of all in the roomis Murray Grafton, No. 18; No. 41, Jean Beaumont, No. 42, Jake Peters; No. 47, The last few years have been especially difficult ones Phyllis Moore replacing Imogene Williams; No. 48, fo r our students and teacherour s. The vision of the years Patricia Gendreau and No. 58, David Harkness, who aheadis verytroub ling. Last year my class sizes were the registered tonight. largest they have been in my 16 years at J.H. Bruns Collegiate. Having 3 5 students in a Senior 4 English Ms. Friesen, on a point of order. class limits any teacher's ability to fulfill curriculum demands fo r oral and group activities. I think we are Point of Order seeing some of that tonight. The marking load becomes evenheavier so that fe wer evaluations occur per student. Ms. Friesen: a point of order, I think Ms. Cerilli had On It becomes impossible to give all students the attention, her hand up to speak, and there were 13 seconds left. So encouragement and motivationthey need to do their best. I wondered if it is possible fo r that to be completed. Overcrowded classes are the new reality of Manitoba education. Mr. Chairperson: Well, it was the minister that I was cutting off because she signalledhad her intention to ask Last year, my high school's textbook budget fo r the a question. English department was$4,000; about $7.27 fo r each of our 550 students fo r booksto read and study for an entire Mrs. Mcintosh: But I am happy to come back and ask school year. The cost of books has risen dramatically in if you want me to. My name is on the list before the last fe w years, yet the textbook budgets keep Marianne's. shrinking. It was discouraging and disheartening to see theDepartment of Education spend I 0 times that amount Mr. Chairperson: I fe lt it solveda difficultproblem by per student on a single exam fo r Senior 4 English, letting the 13 seconds go by. especially, while our students are often studying year­ round with materials held together with tape and prayer, Point of Order because the school has so little money for materials. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, on a point of order, I Provincial fundingto St. Boniface School Division has would just ask that you give special caution to giving beenreduced 14 percent over the last fo ur years. Major each party then the chance to ask the first question, and cuts to St. Boniface schools have meant that school that we not have-because I am sure that we are putting librarians, perhaps the classroom teachers' greatest up our hands. resource, have all been reduced to halftime. A halftime library in any school is unacceptable. Mr. Chairperson: I believe that I have attempted to do thaton every occasion where both sides of the table have Today our newspapers and television news are crowded raised theirhands, and I have tried to be scrupulously fa ir withreports on youth crime, gangs and teen violence; yet, in that respect. I do invite you to raise your hands high in this atmosphere, St. Boniface schools have been fo rced if you do have a question, and I assure you I will do my to reduce their vice -principals, the teachers most best to be fa ir. involved in the schools battles on these issues, to half­

* * * time status. To claim that these cuts havenot impacted on the classroomis fa lse. Cutbacks are having a negative influence on student learning. The ability-to-pay clause Mr. Chairperson: Murray Grafton,you may begin your in Bill 72 will be destructive to the quality of education presentation. in Manitoba. The level of education will vary greatly Mr. Murray Grafton (St. Boniface Teachers' based on the different boards' abilities to pay. Better Association): Good morning. My name is Murray salaries in some divisions will attract the best teachers Grafton, and I am president of the 350 teachers in St. and increase educational inequality between districts. 724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Public schools in Manitoba have lost over $43 million have effectively lost their equivalent right to strike. The in cutbacks during thepast four years. We: have lost 600 legacy of this legislation to the children of St. Boniface teachers,yet the student population has r

Bill 72 puts the future of these schools in jeopardy. In light of the fa ct that the trustees say binding Speaking on behalf of the 350 teachers St. Boniface, in arbitration cannot and will not work fo r them I think that there is a better way to ensure fairn ess and anym

Mr. Grafton: Thank you, Chair. I think that it is pockets, and it is very clear that that is the intention of probably inaccurate to say that we had to give up the this bill. right to strike in exchange fo r binding arbitration, but I think this is very- Mr. Grafton: I think that unless some funding is restored to public education, those resources are not Mrs. Mcintosh: That is not what I am asking. Sorry. going to be reinstated, and I thinkthat the only effect of I am asking ifyou would like to exchange this fo r going Bill 72 will be to cause teachers' salaries to decrease. under The Labour Relations Act and getting back the right to strike. Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to fo llow up on the minister's comment where she was talking about a wish Mr. Grafton: I think it is very true that teachers did list, do you wish one way or the other. My question is, choose to give up the right to strike in exchange fo r do you wish that you had a government that would binding arbitration. I think that binding arbitration is a provide reasonable increases of funding to school fa r more civilized process and it, I think, spares fa milies divisions and then-I do not believe and I am wondering and children the reality of a workplace strike. ifyou do-if we would be in this situation ifwe would be asking fo r a review. Mrs. Mcintosh: Do you think it should work fo r both parties, though, and not just one? Mr. Grafton: I can only respond that I believe that education in Manitoba is a provincial responsibility and Mr. Grafton: I think that a premise of binding one of thegreat issues in this whole legislative arena has arbitration is that an arbitrator is going to be chosen been want of accountability, and I think that the becauseof their wisdom and experience and that they are government should be more accountable in its going to balance the arguments and come to a reasonable responsibilities towards public education. settlement.

Mr. Chairperson: Thankyou fo r your presentation, Mr. Mrs. Mcintosh: I am not getting the answer to my Grafton. question, though. Ifthis is no longer acceptable-

Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Please, I would ask Ms. Cerilli to pose the next question. Mr. Grafton: Thanks very much.

Ms. Cerilli: I really like a lot of the statements that you Mr. Chairperson: Next presenter is Jean Beaumont of have made in your brief I want to ask you, though, if the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents. you would consider that-you have said that you think You may begin your presentation, sir. there is going to be an increase, or a continuation of the increase, in the classroom size, the cuts to programs. Mr. Jean Beaumont (Manitoba Association of School You have listed a lot of situations where there are not Superintendents):Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought enough textbooks. I want to say that I think what is I had experiencedlong marathon board meetings, but this going to happen under thi s bill, the more I listen to beats the record. [interjection] It has been a great presenters, is that teachers are basically going to be experience. paying fo r those textbooks out of their pockets, and that is what is going to happen with this bill. We have seen Just a brief comment as an aside. I am here as the the presenter just before you, from the River East School president of Manitoba Association of School Super­ Division, who has shown that their board wanted them to intendents. Maybe on some other occasion, I could talk take a 3 percent reduction and they were agreeing to zero. to you about what I understand as working in God's So I wonder ifyou consider that that is what is going to country. They seemto havemade some references to that behappening is those lack of resources that are occurring earlier tonight. But I am here as a superintendent and as in your school are going to be coming out of teachers' a representative of the superintendents in Manitoba. 726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Let me tell you a little bit about that first before I get This paper was presented in some form to the study into the document. Clearly, we have spent the last five committee,so sane of you might recognize some parts of months talking toour colleagues from across the province it asthe superintendents ' original position. Clearly then, fromall the regions, from rural Manitoba, from northern if I may, The Manitoba Association of School Manitoba, from the city, from the suburbs, and reallywe Superintendents submits the brief with the hope it can spent some of the time doing some resea�rch. We spent help fm d a long-term solution to the problems that some of the time talking to arbitrators and trying to get manifest themselves in the present system of teacher/ some information as to what this all meant so that we school board collective bargaining. We emphasize could advise our boards and we could work with our finding a long-term solution, because we areconvinced boards and try to really get a perspective about what it that the model suggested in Bill 72 has the potential to meant. createfurther divisiveness at a time where there is a need fo r collaborative efforts to fm d creative solutions to problems as important and as complex as collective My first pointin my preamble is that really five months bargaining. sounds like a lot of time, I would imagine, except that five months to do this project on top of all the other While we recognize the need to undertake a review of projects that superintendents and boards and teachers had the collectingbargain ing process, we respectfully submit to do over the last fe w months is not a good deal of time the process of reforming future collective bargaining as to do the kind of research that we would have set out in Bill 27 unfortunately leaves itself open to a appreciated. I guessthat is the first point I want to make. charge of political expediency. The other point I want to repeat is that clearly the The legislation proposes only one model for comments I wantto make represent really a majority view bargaining, and that is rooted in the continuance of an of thesuperintendents acrossthe province, 1t1orthern, rural adversarial approach. We believea governnt1ent should and urban. We were in a meeting this afternoon at four takeleadership in usingthe political processes to advance o'clock with the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) a rational dialogue among teachers, trustees and the and all the partner organizations. lbe Manitoba government, plus establish an expectation that within a Association of School Superintendents we:re really quite realistic timeframe a long-term solution could be fo und. happy andappreciative thatthe minister waJS really trying to make some connections for trustees and for teachers We recommendthat the government delay Bill 72 until under Bill 72, because I hope you notice in our the next session of the Legislature to allow teachers, presentation tonight, that is really our task. It is to make trusteesand the go vernment time toconsider alternatives, those connections between trustees and t•eachers in the timeto coosidercoonec other tions similar to the ones that hope that we can get the two groups to collaborate, so I the minister has announced today. We believe it is guess I want to express our appreciation to the minister critical that the stakeholders be given that opportunity. fo r her attempt to make those connections. We realize that compensation and bargaining are * (0100) complex and sensitive issues. Because it involves money, working conditions and control, it can be an I think it would take a fe w more weeks or a few more emotional topic. Therefore studies, discussions and days than November 7 and a serious att1empt to make changes must be done carefully and with consideration eitherconnections I believe superintendents would like to fo r the effect on the lives of employees, taxpayers and,

see. Ifl may just very quickly, I hope I can change a bit aboveall, with consideration for the effect of the lives of of thetone of the meeting tonight, because I would really our students. like to leave you with the impression that teachers, superintendents, trustees andthe govemm<:nt reallyhave MASS enters the discussion as an association of tofind a way to collaborate and see if then: are not some educational leaders who areaware of how important it is issues thatwe could resolve to the mutual satisfaction of toeducation to find fa ir, reasonableand just solutions to all the stakeholders. contentions and conflicts between teachers andtrustees . October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 727

We understand the nature of the work that teachers do We have a number of questions, and here is our first. and appreciate the tremendous contribution they make in How will the mediator, arbitrator, function? Can one teaching Manitoba's children. We also work directly person truly remain neutral and unbiased? We do not with trustees and have a first-hand view of their work, have the answers. We are raising a number of questions their hopes and their aspirations fo r public education as based on some research and some discussions we have well as their frustrations. We talk and meet regularly had with somearbitrators who have been involved across with parents as well. They tell us their hopes and fears our country. about schools; they talk about their expectations fo r their A new kind of collective bargaining should be worked children, teachers and school. out that reflects the teacher as a professional in a system where the student who has never had any voice in Superintendents have an intimate knowledge of what bargaining is not going to be disadvantaged by either the goes on in schools and how they operate. We are teacher as an employee or the trusteeas an employer. particularly aware ofthe importance of human interaction in the classroom and how easily these dynamics can be Other models need to be examined, ones which influenced by stress, whether generated within or outside diminish the adversarial, confrontational approach that the classroom. We know that collective bargaining does traditional collective bargainingbr eeds. We have not had influence education. This was recognized in 1957, when the time to do the research necessary to suggest the government, trustees and teachers agreed they wanted alternative models, but we believe they do exist and to establish a model which would have the least should be explored. We know that the enlightened unfavourable impact on students. Enhancing corporations are trying to find ways to make collective accountability acknowledges that model has served bargaining a more positive process, one where both education well over the years. Now we must employer and employees benefit. Interest-based acknowledge that the context of education has been negotiations is one example of this alternative, and we changing and new approaches to collective bargaining provide you with the example in Appendix A. need to be fo und. It is incumbent upon all the partners concerned to work diligently and sincerely to find It is recognized that schools must become learning solutions that can be mutually beneficial and that will organizations where teachers and students engage in continue to have the least unfavourable impact on our collaboration and teaming and where responsibility and students . The partners need time to review and consider accountability are shared. If these values are to become alternatives. commonplace in schools, dialogue and decision-making between trustees and teachers must reflect these .values as they discuss salaries and working conditions. The We are encouraging another look at collective government has been rethinking the vision of education bargaining andcompensation issues by taking the time to as we move towards the next millennium and has been do the job thoroughly, time to encourage dialogue and to developing curriculum and processes to move schools exchange views, time to make sure that the information towards a new vision. The bargaining process must used is complete and accurate, time to do the research and support that decision. to consider methods with which we may not as yet be fa miliar. We believe that ifthis process is to be effective, Teachers are central partners in making the vision a there must be a broad participation, and, as an reality. They must be treated as such. As well, we must association, we are prepared to do our role in that ensure that legislation of this kind will not be perceived process. as diminishing the importance of public education. We believe schools have to be seen as essential elements of MASS urges the government to rethink the process of democracy as institutions where students learn how to determining collective bargaining. The paradigm needs become, not only economic, but also democratic share­ to be changed; collective bargaining fo r teachers should holders. Schools should teach democratic values of be carried out within the context of teaching as a respect, fa irness and compassion. Trustees and teachers profession in one of the most valued institutions of our have an obligation to model these values-so, too, does society, the public school system. the government through its legislative processes. 728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Any consideration of new methods of bargaining or positive benefits for all parties involved. This is not the modifications to the present methods must be examined timefor confroot.ational bargaining and blaming. This is in thecontext of our vision of education antd the value we the time fo r caring, caring for the future of both our placeon it as asociety. Education is not a service, rather, teachers and our students. Thankyou. it is an investment that will ensure future prosperity. Educationmust go beyondensuring basic skills and must Mr. Chairperson: Thankyou. Mrs. Render, then Ms. ensure that students become knowledgeable, com­ Friesen if there is time, and the minister last if there is passionate and contributing citizens. Abiility to pay is a time. very popular notion and a legitimate consideration. However, as superintendents, webelieve that ability-to­ Mrs. Render: Thankyou fo r your presentation. I just pay consideration must be balanced agairtst the value of wanted to ask you, did you realize that the bill doesnot education and, again, we have a question. How will the limit your dispute resolution? You canhave any dispute matter of equityacross the province be addressed in the resolutionthat teachersand trustees agree to as long as it context of ability to pay? is not straight lockout. We did not want to list suggestions and certainly in the years to come, I am sure Mr. Ch�irperson: You are into your question and therewill benew ideas and new methods ofdoing it. So answer portion. Is there leave for himto continue? this bill does not limit. Were you aware of that?

An Honourable Member: Continue on. Mr. Beaumont: I thinkour point isthat we really would like to make sure the trustees, teachers and the Mr. Beaumont: We appreciate that th'e minister has government have that same understanding. We are in a helped to clarify thatissue tonight, and we are hoping position to help promote that understandingin anyway that through continued dialogue we can get even more. we can,and that really thekey part of my message tonight A couple of otherquestions for us refer to the time line to is if there is any way that the government can get the the scheduling and, again, we appreciate the information parties in the same room fo r at least another six hours, wereceived today. It seems to make the sc:heduling a bit possibly we can make some other connections. I am not more flexible. disputing what you are saying, I am just saying we need to make those connections in an effort to collaborate. If * (Ol iO) after the next session of the Legislature the government finds trusteesteachers and still cannot agree, we would be If I may very quickly, Mr. Chairman, d1e government of the opinion that the government would act according has the fiscal responsibilityand must be concerned with to its conscience. the . level of provincial debt. While spending fo r education is a large part of the provincial budget, that is Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, thank you fo r the sobecause theof value society places upon it. We are all presentation. I remember that you did give as much of too fam iliarwith the state of societieswhich have fa iled this advice during the Render-Dyck hearings. I think I to value education and the resulting soc.ial deficits of quoted you during my speech in the Legislature that the poverty, hopelessness, violence, crime and abuse. advice to take it carefully and to take it conjointly, I

think, was an important one. In summary then, superintendents believe collective bargaining needs to be re-examined. Wt: need to do it With referenceto scmething that Mrs. Render just said collectively andin a way ensuresthat the fa ir treatment to on not ruling out any dispute mechanism, I wonder, do all groups. Then we make reference to th1: appendix. you taketo that include final off er selection, that this then is opento trustees and teachers through this bill? Inclosing-if I may go to the last paragraph-decisions needto be madein a thoughtful manner giviing due regard Mr. Beaumont: To befa ir to mycolleagues, Ipurposely to the needs of our students and schools of the future. stated at the outset that we have not had the time to We see this as an opportunity to jointly plan fo r some research alternatives toany depth, so I would rather not exciting and positive changes in education resulting in make a comment on that at this stage,simply reiterating October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 729

whatI have said,that we believe we need more time to do independent of government and to be fa ir to both sides. that kind of study. I am not sure about your lives, For the last 40 years teachers have experienced such fair although I am getting a snapshot tonight. Five months in treatment. All disputes have been settled without any our lives to do the research that we think is warranted is class time lost fo r the students of Manitoba. not a lot of time, considering all the curriculum implementation and all the exams that we would be The principles of fa irness: In the interest of fa irness, involved with in the last five months. when a group of public sector employees gives up the right to strike, some general principles need to apply. Mr. Chairperson: Time is expired. Thank you very First of all, arbitrated settlements ought to be similar to much fo r your presentation, Mr. Beaumont. those achieved by groups having the right to strike. This principle appears to have worked as Manitoba teachers Jake Peters? Maybe you would like to identifY your receive wages that are in the middle of those received by partner, Mr. Peters? teachers in otherprovince s, many of whom have the right to strike. They are also about the same as other public Mr. Jake Peters (Assiniboine South Teachers' sector employees in Manitoba, some of whom have the Association): I am Jake Peters, and this is my partner, right to strike. Val Goodridge. We will be sharing the presentation. Principle 2, neither public sector employers, nor Mr. Chairperson: Okay. employees, should have to subsidize wages, benefits or working conditions. This gets back to what John Ms. Val Goodridge (Assiniboine South Teachers' Scurfield said in one of the other presentations. These Association): We are professional partners by the way, wages andbenefits are rightly paid from the public purse as opposed to the other kind. I just wanted to make sure throughta xation. Up until recently, government funding that was clear. Other people might be concerned. has allowed fo r a strong public school system.

First of all, a thank you to the members of the Principle 3, ability to pay in the public sector is really committee. I am going to begin our presentation. Jake is willingness to pay and therefore should be awarded little going to finish it. We would like to thank you fo r the weight in an arbitrated settlement. Arbitrators have opportunity to present this brief on behalf of the always considered the school divisions financial position

Assiniboine South teachers. We represent 474 teachers when determining an arbitration award. What is · who have very grave concerns regarding Bill 72 and its more,they have always considered other settlements in the effect teacheron barg aining and the public school system. province as well as the economic health of the' province These are professionals who work many long hours as a whole. attempting to develop learning communities based on trustand open communication, who work conscientiously Principle 4, arbitrators should not make choices about to further their own professional growth, who willingly services or programs. This is the responsibility of the accept students with learning difficulties into the elected trustees. Up to now, arbitration awards have classroom and then encourage them to set and obtain always been silent as to how the school divisions will personal learning goals, teachers who give freely oftheir implementthe award. This is rightly the responsibility of out-of-school hours to offer a rich variety of extra­ those elected trustees. curricular activities that involve so many of our students, teachers who endeavour to be creative, hoping to instill Mr. Peters: To spell out some of our concerns, Bill 72 the love of learning in all of our students. undermines these principles of fa irness. This legislation stacks the deck so strongly against teachers during any We come to this hearing with the hope that you will negotiation thatone wonders why try. Many parts of this consider our concerns and withdraw Bill 72. As you legislation are of concern to our membership. have heard many times tonight, in 1956, when teachers accepted interest arbitration and agreed to give up the 1. The speedof the process. After 60 days either side right to strike, they expected the process to be can end the negotiation process and proceed to the next 730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

step. This will cause trouble fo r associations as the this funding. School boards set their budgets by March negotiator for the teachers is a full-time teacher doing his 15 with wage considerations as part of it. Teachers will work in offhours . Teachers are at a disadvantage. beallowed to opennegotiations on the ftrstof April, after all funding decisions have been made. The ability-to-pay 2. Themediator becomesthe arbitrator if no settlement concept may seem logical and reasonable at ftrst glance, is reached. When the same person hear!; the wheeling but let us consider a school division's ability to pay. Our andde aling that iscurren tly part of-and wt: would like to division's two main sources of revenue are grants from change that to conciliation process-it will have to spill the provincial government and theeducational tax levy on over into his deliberation as the arbitrator. This is a property. The trustees of the school board have no patently ridiculous idea. Why on earth bother with the control over government grants but have a say in the sham of mediation? Let us just call it what it is, educational special levy. prearbitration. The spirit of the give and take fo und in the current, and again, conciliation process will be lost, Since the '92-93 school year, we have seen the and teachers will be at a disadvantage. government of Manitoba cut $43.5 million from public school program services. This has caused a serious * (0 1 20) ' difficulty fo r all Manitoba school divisions in maintaining their ability to pay. One might rightly say 3. Theselection of arbitrators. Ifthe arbitrator cannot thatis this not fa ir to the school board. Our local school be mutually agreed upon, the Minister of Labour can board is already covering 38 percent ofits revenue with choose one arbitrator from a preselected pool. In the property taxes as compared to 18 percent back in '8 1 -82, past, a three-member arbitration board assured that both andit isloathe to inaeaseits tax levy. The ability-to-pay sides received a fa ir hearing. The proposed legislation clause in The Public School Act will allow school boards allows fo r one person appointed by the government to to pass fundingfurther cuts directly onto teachers through make the arbitration award. Can this be i111dependent or wage rollbacks. With the ability-to-pay clause in place, fa ir? Again, teachers will be at a disadvantage. trustees cannow smugly sit back and use this excuse to fo rget about real negotiations. 4. Bill 72 will substantially change the relationship between teachers and the school boards. There will be Inthe public sector, ability to pay is really willingness little motivation to bargain in good fa ith ifBill 72 is to pay. We have heard that over andover again. Public enacted. As Martin Tiplitsky, a noted arbitrator in sector employers do have the ability to raise funds Ontario, stated in an address to the Canadian Bar through taxation. Ifability to pay is written into The Association, why shouldpublic sectoremployers settle, Public Schools Act, all future collective agreements will that is, take responsibility fo r their decisions, when they be unjust, one-sided documents. Surely no government can have what they want through criteria that wants to go on record as being the author of such predetermines the results? Arbitration willl be a piece of undemocratic legislation, and teachers will be at a cake. When they cannot settle on their ovm terms, they disadvantage. will proceed to arbitrate and demand that labour arbitrators do their bidding. Teachers will be at a Inconc lusion, the teachers in ourschool division, as I disadvantage. believeall teachers, want to teach. Ourteachers want to teach in a strong, viable, public school system where 5. Bill 72 sets the stage fo r teachers to subsidize the inclusiveness and excellence are the guiding words. cost of education through wage rollbacks. Ofgreatest Thesethings are thatwe talk about in our staffroom. We concern fo r our members is the clause that requires tryto ov en:ane thenegativism that there is in society, we arbitrators to take as their primary concern-and we muster one another, andwe go out there and we challenge realize that there is the plan to amend the bill-even so, each other to do the very best. we do have a real concernand a remaining c::oncern about the ability to pay when making an award. Government During the March '96teacher collective bargaining and fundingto the public school system is set in January. For compensation committee hearings, teachers again and the last several years, there has been a frec:ze or a cut to again pointed out that they did not desire their right to October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 73 1

strike but wished a continuation of the fa ir negotiating have lost. The scope of bargaining has widened process. We ask today that you withdraw Bill 72. Let us considerably over the past 40 years. Things are being get back to what we do best, teaching the children of bargained now that were never envisioned to be part of Manitoba. the bargaining process.

Mr. Chairperson: Thanks fo r the presentation. Mr. Chairperson: Pose your question.

Mrs. Render: I am not too sure if I understand one of Mrs. Mcintosh: I will pose my question. Since this your statements here. Are you suggesting that the does notseem tobe accep table now to teachers, it is very selection of the arbitrator as appointed by the government clear they do not like this proposal we brought fo rward. is unfair, that it is a political appointment? I am not sure Trustees now say they can live with it, but now teachers what you mean by your sentence. cannot. How do you fe el? Would you want to go back then and go back to 1955, put you under The Labour Ms. Goodridge: We really would prefer to keep the Relations Act and have you take back the right to strike? chief justice as the person that does some appointing if Would that be preferable than to live with this which is there is a lack of agreement. We fe el that that is a more now acceptable to trustees but clearly not to teachers? appropriate place fo r this kind of decision. Mr. Peters: The principal of our school was in contact Mrs. Render: Teachers have asked, you know, labour with some school officials from the state of Washington board method. Do you understand that if teachers and and the state of Oregon, and they would die to have this trustees can agree, it is jointly appointed; but if they kind of a situation. Now these are administrators, higher cannot, it is the Minister of Labour who chooses from a level administrators, who are concerned about the fa ct list that has been put together by both sides which that their school year gets cut, that again and again their rests-which is housed by the collective bargaining board governments and agreements that are made between the or by the Manitoba Labour Board. teachers and the board interfere with schooling. They look to Manitoba and our present situation, our present conditions, and they say, that is what we should adopt in Ms. Goodridge: I am aware of that. Washington. That is what we should adopt in Oregon. Personally, I will speak only fo r myself when I talk about Mrs. Mcintosh: Just a question. I noticed repeatedly the right to strike. I would not want it, but at the same throughout these briefs that teachers are always saying time, I think that you cannot take all the blocks away. In that fo r the past 40 years this has worked well, and it has other words, if back in earlier years, 40 years ago, when worked well, and so on, and it has been fa ir. I appreciate teachers in no sacrifice gave up a right to strike, they that it has been that way fo r teachers and teachers fe el were given something very important. that way. I do know that since 1984, when it was first raised at a MAST convention, and when I was president Mr. Chairperson: I am afraid your time has expired. ofMAST, that unanimously the boards at that time held Thank you very much fo r your presentation. a big meeting of all of the finance chairmen and personnel chairmen trying to see what they could do Next presentation is Phyllis Moore in place of Imogene about binding arbitration. It was 1984, so this has been Williams. That is No. 47. a matter of growing concern fo r trustees culminating in Ms. Moore, you may begin your presentation. those three resolutions. The trustees have said, this has not worked well. This is broken, please fix it. And if * (0 130) you cannotfix it, give the field back the right to strike, or they are goingto have to start laying offteachers because Ms. Phyllis Moore (The Retired Teachers they cannot close that gap in the wages. Association of Manitoba): Thank you. You will be very pleased to see how short it is at this hour. Okay, we are bringing in this legislation in an attempt to try to give back those things that trustees claim they Mr. Chairperson: I appreciate it. Thank you. 732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Ms. Moore: The Retired Teachers' Association of ways? They asked to have it changed fo r the very Manitoba, whom I represent, has a memlbership of over opposite reason that you are asking to have it removed. 2,000. At our annual general meeting illl May, teacher How would you comment on that? collective bargaining was considered the most urgent issue, on questionnaires which we distributed. Ms. Moore: I believe it has always been thus. There have beenthe years when teachers have made substantial We have been active teachers during the 40 years that increases in salary, and there have been years such as the the present system of arbitration has been in effect. Fair past two, three when teachers have made no increase in settlements have been made, and our schools have been salary. I really donot understand why the school trustees free from strikes. We strongly oppose the unilateral object to the present system fo r-there have been the dismantling of teacher collective bargaining as proposed checks and balances. If negotiations did not proceed in Bill 72, The Public Schools Amendment Act. smoothly, then, of course, there was always the arbitration process in which both sides had equal Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much fo r that opportunity to state a case and make a fa ir settlement. presentation, Ms. Moore. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Friesen, then Mr. Pallister. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thankyou very much, and it is good to see you here. I amjust wondering if you could indicate Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to me what are the main components of Bill 72 that you for your presentation. I do not know whether you can fe el are not beneficial for teachers. answerthis question, but it seems to me that what we are heading fo r is a situation not necessarily of strike and Ms. Moore: We believe that this bill may lower lockout in Manitoba education but certainly a situation of teachers' salaries due to the claimed inability of some strife, and I wondered, if you had experienced, by divisions to pay. Ourconcern is that teachers will suffer, observation or by membership in organizations, of not only atpresent but in theirfuture years, because lower jurisdictions where there has been strife in education, if salaries now mean lower pensions later. Unjustly, some you could tell me something about that experience. teachers in the province will have even fUrther reduced pensions because they taught in divisions which had a Ms. Moore: Yes. Manitoba, in, I may not have the low taxbase. We believethis is unjust treatment of some correct year,but I think it was about 1972, in Winnipeg teachers, and we also believe that the collective schools, we worked to rule, and it was a dreadful, bargaining process, which has been workilllg fo r all of us dreadful situation. Those of us who coached teams did from 1956 to the present, is fa ir and is a workable not coach teams, and those who had drama clubs, they agreement to work under. just lost a year. Every activity outside of the regular curriculum stopped, and it was hardest on your hardest Mrs. Mcintosh: Thankyou fo r that. How do you speak working teachers, those who like to give time. It to the point that the trustees, after all their regional happened to be in the spring, and many of us just went meetings which they just had, came to me on Thursday fo r a walk at lunch timeor did something else during that and asked to have the ability to pay changed, which we period, only to be met with very unhappy parents. So, are changing at their request, asked to have it changed therefore, you had unhappy teachers, unhappy parents. I because they fe lt, in their opinion, the sword cuts both think the whole system was a very sad, sad commentary ways, and in boom years, and we have them, as lean because we had not yet gone mto arbitration and settled years, the ability-to-pay clause as worded would give a the matter. I think it was a black day. In fa ct, it ran on distinct advantage to teachers who then (;ould go to an fo r many days, a couple of weeks in fa ct, and they were arbitrator and say, based upon the division's ability to sad days fo r schools. pay, this is a boomyear, Manitoba's economy is up, there has been a bumper crop, they have the ability to pay us, Mr. Pallister: My mother taught fo r 40 years, and the and that boards then would have to, even though it was mind fa irly boggles at the contributions that your in their opinion not warranted, give a raise: based on that members, the members of your association, have made to ability to pay because they said the sword cuts both our society and to Manitobans. I know that every October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 733

member of the committee would share our thanks to you I wasborn in 1873 in Ontario. Before the age of five, and to the Retired Teachers Association fo r the great myfa mily and I would move to Manitoba on a fa rm. By contribution you have made. I know that time does not the age of 16 years old, having completed my teacher allow us to get into great detailed discussions on any training, I would teach Grades 1 to 8 in a one-room issue, but I am curious as to why you chose teaching as school in Somerset, Manitoba. Upon my arrival, I was a career. informed thatthere had beena crop failure and the school district could only provide me with board and room but Ms. Moore: I did not have the money to be a doctor, no pay. As I looked around me, I was saddened at the which I dearly wanted to be, but I taught fo r 43 years hardships that people in my new community and the either asa teacheror a principal, and I loved it very, very province were experiencing. Alcohol abuse, violence, much. I must say that every morning when I wake up I injustices fo r the destitute and poor working conditions thank those special gods who lookafter teachers that I do were prevalent problems. not have to go into a schooltoday . I do not know how I could stand to exist in a school today. I, too, remember Today, as an educator, I stand before you to address those balmy saladdays that the minister remembers in the Premier Filrnon's government, Bill 72, a legislative '60s, '70s and '80s when mothers were at home and were project which will restrictcollective bargaining and will helpful to the school, where special children were in affect my salary, benefits and working conditions for all small classes taught by special teachers, and not as they my Manitoba colleagues. are today in regular classrooms, where they have to be catheterized and syringed and diapered. I think I would In 1956, andyou have heard this before, the educators go crazy in this situation where there is no money for of Manitoba obtained binding arbitration in lieu of the books. right to strike. Now, 40 years later, the agreement is being modified by the government and is in fact limiting I remember in the '60s and '70s, we just gaily ordered the teachers' collective bargaining process. a book in every subject fo r every child and maybe I 0 more, we might need those. This is not the situation Section 129 refursto, anarbitrator shall base her orhis today. I think the only happy teachers are those in the decision primarily on school boards' ability to pay. Why Retired Teachers' Association of Manitoba. not base ability topay on more objective criteria, such as the Consumer Price Index or the provincial economic Mr. Chairperson: Thanksvery much, Ms. Moore. The growth? This clause is, in essence, a willingness-to-pay next presenter is Patricia Gendreau, No. 48. A visual clause, as ability to pay is arbitrary. If this clause is aid, okay. passed, Manitoba teachers' salaries and ' working conditionswill continue to deteriorate. Already we have Ms. Patricia Gendreau (Private Citizen): It helps in had over 600 teaching positions lost, no salary increase education. for the past two years and a salary rollback due to Bill 22. With this reduction in salary, will the educational Mr. Chairperson: You may begin your presentation. system still be able to attract qualified and competent teachers? It is a fact that some school divisions in Ms. Gendreau: Stop Bill 72. Stop Bill 72. Stop Bill Manitoba are only hiring teachers with minimal 72. university training and no experience in order to compensate for the financial cutbacks. I am sorry, Good evening, honourable committee members. I am honourable members of the Manitoba Legislature, this is here today as Nellie McClung, not fo r the purpose of not quality of education. theatrics, but fo r the purpose of showing the relevance of past history to our present educational dilemma. If we However, Section 129 lists other factors which the are a collectivity of intelligent human beings, why then arbitrator must considerwhen making his or her decision. can we not learn from past experiences? Factor (a): School divisions may have to reduce other * (0 1 40) services in light of awards to teachers. This means that 734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

teachers' salaries arepitted against other s,ervices offered With these fo ur exclusions, teachers lose the right to by the school division. By reducing services such as choose where they wish to work and what they prefer to buses and daycare in order to compensate fo r teachers' teach. Does this respect teachers and enhance the quality salaries, are we really supporting and enhancing the of education? Even now, teachers are working under quality of education? duress, overwhelmed bythe increasing workload. Morale is indeed low. How can this not affect the services to Factor (b): Current economic situatio111. This should students in the classrooms? To teach and to learn, one beone ofthe first considerations when evaluating ability must be in a secure, positive and supportive environment. to pay instead of a possible fa ctor.

Class size must be taken into consideration. With the Factor (c): A comparison between the terms and breakdowns in fa milies, church and the community conditions of employment of teachers to those of structures, sometimes the only stable element in a child's comparable employees in the public and private sectors life is the school. With larger classes, combined grades, with primary consideration given to comparable increasing student needs, an educator can only do so employees in the school division. Does 1this mean that much without the necessary resources. public school teachers would be compared to private school teachers? When one compares, it is imperative Changes may be needed in the educational system in that all factors be equivalent. Private stChools have a order to meetthe nam of our present-day society. When ·select clientele based on ability to pay and academic we are to tune a fine Stradivarius, one does not use a performanceof the student. Furthermore, private schools hacksaw but consults with a specialist in that particular select theirstudent s according to set criteria. There is no field. We, the public educators of Manitoba, are the mainstreaming in the private school sector. We, in the specialists who are both knowledgeable and qualified in public school system, accept all students who enroll at matters of education. We arethere at the fo refront and on our school, and our only criteria fo r accepting a student a daily basis, dealing with the educational needs of our is that we cannot refuse his or her admission. youth. Honourable members, when is the last time y�u . have spent oneto five full consecutive days working WI� With the mainstreaming policy implemented by the a classroom group of children from one of our pubhc government, we have students with special needs, schools? emotional and behavioural difficulties and leaning disabilities. With the continuing cutbacks, resource Inrestructuring the educational system, it is imperative people, teaching assistants, books and teaching materials thatthe Filmon government realize that the change must are severely lacking, but we in the public school system be made with the full collaboration of educators. are supposed to be real teachers and shall rise to the challenge and do more with less. I am very sorry, If Bill 72 is not repealed, we will indeed not have members of the Legislature, something is lacking in the learned from the past that education is imperative to the mathematics fo rmula. Two plus two is always fo ur, and betterment of oursociety. It is because of the educational the proposed elements of your educational fo rmula are system and of dedicated educators that yo�, honourable defmitely not equal to the proposed answe:r. committee members, and I can read. wnte and speak publicly. Factor (d) : The need to retain and re<:ruit qualified teachers. Again, who will be attracted to the teaching I trustthat you, honourable committee members, have profession when expectations are limitless, salaries are listened with an open mind and an open heart. History low and working conditions and benefits are poorly tends to repeat itself Please consider all that you have defined? heard fromthe public before making your final decision. Anotheraspect of Bill 72 is that all workling conditions Listening and considering, honourable members, are are arbitrable and negotiable except 1he fo llowing worthless without positive government action. exclusions: transfer, assignment, appointment and selection of teachers and principals; evaluation; class In order to build a strong and efficient educational size; scheduling of recesses and lunch hour. system, it is imperative that the Filmon government and October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 735

the Manitoba teachers work together towards a fa ir, Mr. Chairperson: Thanks very much fo r your viable and independent collective bargaining process in presentation, Ms. Gendreau. regard tosalary, benefits and working conditions. Thank you fo r the opportunity to read my brief this morning and I now call on the last presenter fo r this evening, David a big thank you to Ms. Cerilli fo r respecting the Harkness. I shouldnot saythis evening, this morning, or democratic procedures. Thank you. this combined event. You may begin, Mr. Harkness.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you fo r that presentation. Mr. David Harkness (Private Citizen): Okay, thank you. Goodmorning, all. I trust that your tomorrow will Ms. Friesen: Thankyou fo r your presentation, and I will be as long as mine, so I will be as uncharacteristically resist the temptation to ask you your view of the brief as possible. minister's proposal fo r the removal of compulsory Grade 11 Canadian history. As was mentioned earlier, I signed on tonight so I do not have copies of my presentation. I have a relatively legible, fo r me, copy here. However, I can certainly make I would like to ask you, however, about the minister's those available to you by your next meeting. proposals fo r modifications fo r amendments to her bill, and I wondered if you could give us a sense of whether As a result ofthat, I am notgoing to talk about specific that meets any of your concerns. Does it go any way to details and figures but would instead like to tell you a meeting your concerns? short story about my fa mily. In 1911, a teenage Polish immigrant, Sophie Shwabowski [phonetic] came to Ms. Gendreau: I stand before you to say that I agree Canada, as did Stephen Drajeck [phonetic],the with my colleagues that have passed before, and in my Czechoslovakian boy she would someday many. Being class I try to be direct and to the point. I do not believe illiterateand uneducated, but intelligent, they invested the in resaying things that have been said again. moneythey made as a fa rmhand stooking wheat and as a washer woman washing other people's clothes and floors Bill 72, I am sure that probably it must have been not in RRSPs but in the education of their children. drawn out to solve a problem, but I think it is creating Their first child, Mildred, was born in 1933. She spoke problems. I thinkBill 72,we should just put it aside and no English until she went to the proverbial one-room start all over again. When we have problems with our schoolhouse. She was one of a handful of students in 10 homework and it is not functioning, we just do it all over grades in that room, a situation which appears to be on again, but this time, please work with the teachers. We ' our own horizon. are there working with the students. Work with the teachers. Work with us. Let us be part of the process. Despite the financial deprivations of the 1930s, she prevailed. Not only did she prevail, however, she Mr. Dyck: Thank you fo r your report as well. Under conquered. I ask you to consider the pride in the eyes of Factor c, you are using comparisons, and you are using Sophie and Stephen, [phonetic] still illiterate but still the private and the public schools. We have heard a fa ir intelligent, when she told them that she was planning to number of presenters tonight talking about these areas. go to Normal School to become a teacher despite the abysmally low wages and incredible demands placed on I am just wondering in comparison, as well, with teachers in a nation which still saw itself as hewers of salaries, are the salaries fa irly comparable, those in the wood and drawers of water. I, her eldest, watched as she private and those in the public schools? marked and prepared lessons throughout my childhood.

* (0150) I watched throughoutmy childhood as she continued to make Sophie and Stephen [phonetic]. She continued her Ms. Gendreau: Well, I amnot a financial adviser. I am studies at BrandonUnivers itywh ile raising three children a teacher. I could not answer that. I have no idea what in Virden, andeventually completed her bachelor's degree their salaries would be, only about what mine is. theyear after I completed my master's. You see, like her 736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 parents, she sacrificed time with her yowtgfa mily and a Education clearly improves social conditions. Any significantamomtt of money to ensure th1at I, too, could study I have read on this clearly states that increased pursue my education. Again, like Sophie and Stephen, education decreases the draws on the criminal justice (phonetic] she sent her firstborn offto !become, yes, a system, a benefit I am sure the former Minister of teacher. I, like my mother, have seenmany changes in Education can appreciate. They also note that it education, some better than others. Like my mother and decreases the draw on our beleagueredhealth system as like Sophie and Stephen [phonetic] before her, I see well. A good liberal arts education with many different education as the only hope for our children's future, and, options enhances and enriches lives. For the want of yes, I too have children, 340 of them. $50,000, my local school division had to cut a very successful co-op work education program, a program Some people in my neighbourhood have asked me why which was nationally recognized when three of our five I stay a teacher when cutbacks are regular, job demands applicants placed in the top five of a national essay areincreas ing and teachers are burningout. My reply, if rmtning competition on the benefits of this kind of pressed for time as we all are tonight, is that I have not education. This includes essays by university students. yet burned out, but I am getting close. 'When I am not Neighbouring divisions are cutting technical education pressed for time, I explain to them as bes:t I can my real courses fo r juniorhigh students at a time when Canadian reason for staying in the profession. Education is industry is crying fo r people with skills that programs essential to society and to democracy. Ask the Greeks. like this suffer. Despite poisoning the greatest teacher of their day, they generally revered these pedagogues. Their contribution How can we dispel inequalities among schools and to western civilization led, and still lteads, western ensure quality education fo r all students? That is easy. philosophies on education. Responsible and sufficient funding fo r all public schools-Sophie and Steven, illiterate immigrantsknew this. Theyknew that they would have to make sacrifices. Mr. Chair, I am sure that the minister, as a fo rmer Sacrifice is not to pay fo r education but to invest in it. teacher, is familiar with John Dewey. In 1899, Dewey For them, education was a red line item in the annual said what the best and wisest parent walllts fo r his own budget. They did not budget for a year but fo r a lifetime child, that must the community want for all its children. and not their lifetime, but the lifetime of a family that Any other ideal fo r our schools is narrow and mtlovely. crossed generations. Their children and their grand­ Actedupon, it destroys our democracy. How, you might children are the richer fo r it. ask, doessystem a of public schools supportdemocracy? In six ways: It prepares responsible citizens; it improves Goodeducation result wiD ineconoolic self-sufficiency, social !X)nditions; it enhances and enriches individual a financial life, if you will, but it does much more. It lives; it dispels inequality in education and ensures a ensures that the continuation of a fo rward-moving, basic level of quality education and opp()lrtunity among compassionate andfulfilled citizenry in a healthy society. schools, and it provides self-sufficiency. As you deliberate on the proposed legislation, I implore you, on behalfof Sophieand Steven, Mildred, myself and How do we achieve these goals, or do we? my 340 children, to bear in mind that the principles of Responsible citizens start as students. At Nelson public education that hark back to Greece. Do not Mcintyre Collegiate, for instance, studentsour have made decrease funding, invest more. Do not put your school great strides in citizenship. They sandbagged local boards and teachers into conflict over increasing class recreational fa cilities during last year's flood, and on sizes and decreasing salaries. You will only fo ster the Hallowe'en, tomorrow I believe-oh, the day after-they kind of low morale and social malaise that exists in are participating in the first of our three annual blood California and New Zealand after their ill-fated drives, a tradition which we have established in recent experiments in TQM education. years. Infac t, they were recognized by the Canadian Red Cross last month at their 1 OOth anniversary celebration Dolook upon aU students in Manitoba's public schools for their continuing donations. Many of these students as your own children andinvest in their futures. In this will continue to donate throughout their adult lives. regard, you sit in loco parent is. Do what Sophie and October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 737

Steven did. Invest in what is the best and what these contain a provision obliging the employer, in parents want fo r their children. Thankyou . administeringthe collective agreement, to act reasonably, fa irly, in good fa ith and in a manner consistent with the Mr. Chairperson: Thanks fo r a moving presentation, collective agreement as a whole. Mr. Harkness. There being no questions, thanks very, very much fo r your presentation. We believe that Sections 131.4(1) and 131.4(2) should not allow matters not specifically covered by the An Honourable Member: Committee rise. collective agreement to be subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures under the collective agreement. Mr. Chairperson: I presume the agreement, the committee will now rise. The matters raised in Section 126(2) are fo r the most part public matters that are related to the quality of COMMITTEE ROSE AT: 2 a.m. educational services provided by a school division. As such, these should be left to board discretion. WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS PRESENTED BUT NOT READ In addition, we predict sections like these will lower professional standards. We support the concept that the Re: Bill 72 canon of collectivism is to moderate; the canon of professionalism is to excel. The association has reviewed the proposed changes to The Public Schools Act as reflected in Bill 72 and make Section 131.5(c) and all related sections: MASBO the fo llowing comments: does not see any distinct advantage in changing the effective dates of collective agreements from January 1st The association has reviewed and considered Sections toJuly 1st with anexpiry date of June 30th. This change 131.4(1) and 131.4(2) in relation to the proviso's fo und would only affect teacher agreements and not take into in Section 126(2) of Bill 72. account other collective agreements with support staff. The current date of December 31st has worked well with We believe that Section 126(2) does nothing to assist all divisions and is irrelevant to accounting practices. the parties in ensuring quality education fo r students in any particular school division. Section 110.1 and 126(2): MASBO would reinforce the position taken by MAST with regard to the items to We note that Section 126(2) does not specifically deal be excluded from the arbitration process: 1) the with the issue that (a)throu gh (d) are also not negotiable. selection, appointment, assignment and transfer of It appears that while an arbitrator is prohibited from teachers; 2) subject to the act, the duties a teacher is to dealing with clauses (a) through (d), there is no specific perform; 3) teacher evaluation 4) teacher termination; 5) provision indicating that these matters are also not opening and closing time of schools, contact time and negotiable. It would appear that while an arbitrator preparation time; 6) the number, kind, grade and cannot deal with these issues, the school board may description of schools; 7) courses and programs of study; negotiate and include them in a collective agreement. If 8) class size, teacher/pupil ratio and number of classes; this is true, thenclearly a conflict exists. 9) anymatter whichmay be ancillary or incidental to any of the fo regoing. With regard to Section 131.4(1), the association supports a deemed provision obliging the employer, in administering the collective agreement, to act reasonably, Section 110.2(1) and (2): Relevant financial fa irly, in good fa ith and in a manner consistent with the information: The act should be amended by deleting the collective agreement as a whole. We would draw your words "relevant financial information" and inserting attention to Section 80(1) of The Manitoba Labour "financial statement." The financial statement and Relations Act which reads as fo llows: Obligation to act budget will provide the relevant fm ancial information fa irly, et cetera, 80(1): Every collective agreement shall that is sought. 738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Section 126(l)(b): We require clarification of Section As a matter of principle, I respectfully disagree with (b). If the intent of this section is the ability of the this bill. It seems too heavily weighted in fa vour of minister to interfere in the arbitration process, then our management. There currently is a sound and equitable association is opposed to the clause. system in place. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Section 129(1): Delete the words "or p(:rmitted by the For some time teachers have, with their approval as I minister." Ifthe minister fee ls the time frame should be understand it, lost the right to strike in exchange fo r a extended, both parties should be contacted. system of binding arbitration. Certainly a strong argument can bemade for abolishing or limiting the right Section 129(3) and 129(4): Rewording to incorporate to strike and the right to lockout in areas such as the both sections and delete word "primarily" as fo llows: public sector, healthand edu cation. However, this would The arbitrator shall, in respect of matt(:rs that might only beacceptable ifit were replaced by equal or superior reasonably be expected to have a financial effect on the methodsof protecting the rights and interests of workers, school division or school district, base his or her decision which had significant support from workers and their on theschool division's or school district's ability to pay, representatives. as detelll$ted by: a) its current revenues, including the fu nding received from the government and the The current system of binding arbitration in the Government of Canada and its taxation rc�venue; b) the existing Public Schools Act may be such a method. nature and type of services that the school division or Altering the system as proposed in Bill 72 is, I school district mayhave to reduce in light of the decision respectfullysuggest, a retrograde and unfair step. As you or award ifthe current revenues of the school division or undoubtedly will hear many thorough submissions school districtare not increased; c) the current economic elaborating on this theme and detailed analyses of this situation in Manitobaand in theschool division or school biU, I will limit my comments to several points, some of district; d) a comparison between the terms and which may beperipheral to the main issue. conditions of employment of the teachers in the school division or school district and those of comparable Section 15, new subsection 126(2). It seems employees in thepublic and private sectors,. with primary inappropriate fo r matters of such vital concern, in consideration given to comparable employees in the particular(a) and (b) to be removed from the arbitrator's school division or school district or in the: region of the protection. province inwhich theschool division or school district is located; e) the need of the school division or school Section 17, new subsection 128(3). Perhaps stronger district to recruit and retain qualified teachers. protection fo r certain categories of confidential information isneeded. This subsection refers only to the Section 129. 1 : Thisarticle leaves someconcern in that interests of either party. However, there may be other the minister could amplifY or delay an award to the parties, e.g., pupils, individual staffmembers or members division. of the public, who have confidentiality and privacy interests in matters that could conceivably come before Manitoba Associationof School Business Officials Inc. the arbitrator, although such cases would probably be quite rare in interest rather thangrievance arbitra tion. It * * * is hopedthat this problem will be addressed.

To thehonoumble members of the Legislative Assembly. Section 22, new subsection 131.4, I respectfully suggest that a school board should be under an express Submission on Bill 72, The Public Schools Amendment dutyto act bly, reasona filirly and in good fa ith towards its Act (2). teachers in allmatters, irrespective of whether or notthey are referable fo r arbitration or covered by a collective I wish to make several written only comments agreement. It seems somewhat surprising that a concerning Bill 72 in my individual capacity as a private provision analogous to that of Section 80 of The Labour citizen. Relations Act was not enacted in the existing Public October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 739

Schools Act. It is to be hoped that this omission will meetings on proposed legislative changes this September. now be remedied. Six meetings were held across the province in the first two weeks of September. More than 200 trustees and I thank you fo r your attention. senior school board administrators attended these meetings, representing all but two of MAST's member Edward H. Lipsett, B.A., LL.B., Private Citizen boards. Thepr oceedings of these meetings give direction

* * * to much of what fo llows.

Collective Bargaining - The Process (Sections 8, 9, 21 & MAST Submission to the Law Amendments 28) Review Committee on Bill 72 The Public Schools Amendment Act (2) Discussion: Bill 72 would mend the collective and Related Statutes bargaining process as it applies to school boards and teacher associations. The two groups would be able to Introduction jointly request that the Minister of Education and Training appoint either a conciliator, or a mediator­ The Manitoba Association of School Trustees arbitrator to assist them in their negotiations. Sixty days welcomes this opportunity to present to the Law after the notice to begin collective bargaining has been Amendments Review Committee its view on changes to given, either group may ask the minister to appoint a the collective bargaining provisions of The Public mediator-arbitrator. Sections 8, 9, 21 and 23 of Bill 72 Schools Act, as proposed in Bill 72. In recent years, outline the provisions of the conciliation, mediation, and school trustees have pursued with government a number arbitration processes. of fu ndamental changes to the process of collective bargaining between school boards and teacher Trustees generally support the proposed changes to the assoc1abons. From the trustees' perspective, the collective bargaining process. Several of these changes cornerstone of the collective bargaining process is the are supported by resolutions passed by school trustees in continuation of bargaining at the local level. MAST recent years. Although mediation has not been welcomes the legislative direction which reaffirms the considered by a MAST convention, most schoolboards importance of collective bargaining between school would seem to view its inclusion as an improvement in boards and teachers at the school division and district the collective bargaining process. level. School boards do, however, have some concerns about MAST's positions on Bill 72 have been shaped the changes to the collective bargaining process outlined primarily through two processes. As always, the in Bill 72. One of the most widespread is the offloading associations's policies, as determined by resolution at its of conciliation costs to school boards and teacher annual convention, area crucial determinant of any stance associations, and the divergence between The Public taken by the association. Where appropriate, these Schools Act and TheLabour Relations Act in this regard. policies have been fo rwarded annually to the Minister of At present, the government pays the cost of a conciliator Education and Training (Mrs: Mcintosh) and other in school board/teacher association negotiations, as it ministers fo r consideration and possible action. These does in negotiations conducted under The Labour policy positions were also contained in MAST's brief to Relations Act. Amendments contained in Section 9 of the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation Bill 72would seethese costs divided between the school Review Committee this spring. We are pleased to see board and the teacher association. We believe that the that some of the changes proposed in Bill 72 and other government should either continue to pay this cost legislation before the Legislature reflect concerns the association has recently brought before the minister. directly, or provide categorical funding to enable school boards to do so.

In light of the extent of the changes proposed by Bill In a similar vein, we are concerned about discrepancies 72 and other legislation, MAST augmented its fo rmal between the mediation provisions of The Labour policy positions by holding a series of special regional Relations Act and those proposed fo r The Public Schools 740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

Act. At present, mediation under The La1bour Relations Discussion: School Boards support the inclusion of Act is paid for by the government. Ifchanges proposed ability to pay as a consideration in an arbitrator's underBill 26, The LabourRelatioos Amendment Act, are decision, and in fa ct asked fo r this inclusion in a implemented, the government will still pay one-third of convention resolution in 1996. MAST requested the cost of Labour Relations Act mediations. The consideration fo r ability to pay because school boards proposed addition to ThePublic Schools Act would have believedthat arbitration boards assigned more weight to school boards and teacher associations splitting the cost other bargained settlements than they did to a school of mediation. We believe that the only fa ir and board's ability to pay. reasonable approach is thatthe provisions of the two acts be parallel in this regard. Ourpref erence;: would be that School boards also recognize that the implementation the status quo of the current Labour Relations Act be of a concept such as ability to pay poses some practical maintained, and that these provisions be extended to problems. Specific issues that will require further mediation underThe Public Schools Act. At a minimum, discussion and clarification include whether or not (or we would ask that if the mediation provisions of The how much of) a school division's surplus will be taken Labour Relations Act are amended so that government into account when determining ability to pay, and the pays one-� of theassociated costs under that act, these relationship between ability to pay and increasing local same provisions be extended to mediation under The taxes (ability to pay vs. willingness to pay). Public Schools Act. School boards are also concerned that this legislative School boards are also concerned about the proposed amendment not be interpreted so as to give arbitrators method of appointing the mediator/arbitrator. We are authorityover programmingdecisions . A situationcould concerned that the list envisioned in Section 9 would be arise whereby an arbitrator decides that a school board undulyrestrictive. We also believe that the: Chief Justice, would havean increased ability to pay, ifthat board were rather than the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), is the to reduce or modifY program offerings to students. No most appropriate individual to select the mediator­ arbitrator should have the authority to compel a school arbitrator. board to change its educational program or support services. We are seeking a commitment from the MAST's Position: government that authority over the educational program will remain with the elected school board. - With the exception of the items noted below, MAST supports the proposed changes to the collective Many school boards have also expressed the concern bargaining process found in The Public Schools Act, as thatirnpl ernentatiooof this concept will lead to increased outlined in Bill 72. inequities in public schools throughout the province unless areefforts made by the province to equalizeability - Conciliation and mediation services should be made to pay. We would urge the government to implement available fo r negotiations between school boards and ability to pay concurrently with renewed efforts to teacher associations at no cost to the parties involved. increase equalization support fo r school divisions and districts throughout the province. - A mutually agreed-to list of mediators/arbitrators should be establishedthrough the Collective Agreement Most school boards agree that,fo r ability to pay to be Board TheCollective Agreement Board should establish a considerationin arbitrationaw.ud s, teacher associations procedures for the maintenance of such a list. needto have accessto relevant financial information. In fa ct, many school divisions already provide such - The Chief Justice of the Province of Manitoba should information. However, we do have concerns about how select arbitrators and mediators, using the Collective "relevant fmancial information" may be defmed. In Agreement Board list, as well as other names that the particular, school boards are concerned that this not be Chief Justice may choose. interpreted toinclude the budget line fo r projected salary Ability to Pay/Requirement For Financial Infor-mation increases. Thepotential for confusionand conflict in this (Sections 18 and 5) regardcould be alleviatedif the legislation were amended October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 74 1

to indicate precisely what fm ancial infonnation boards Discussion: Manitoba's school boards generally support are required to provide. the list of matters not referred to arbitration contained in Section 15 of Bill 72. However, serious concerns have MAST's Position: been expressed about the way in which the obligation to act fa irly, described in Section 22 of the proposed - Sections 1 10.2(1) and (2) should be amended so as to legislation, could affect the policies and decision making delete the phrase "relevant financial infonnation", and of school boards. use instead "audited financial statements and most recent approved budget." The obligation fo r school boards to act fa irly and the - MAST believes that a school board's ability to pay legislative recourse in the event they fa il to comply [new should beone fuctor in an arbitrator's decision; we do not PSA Sections 131.4(1) and 131.4(2)] are linked with believe that his or her decision should be based matters not referable fo r arbitration [new PSA Section "primarily" on ability to pay, as proposed in Section 126(2)]. While school boards do not oppose a fa irness 129(3). test,these sectionSof proposed legislation, read together, expose school boards to literally thousands of individual - Sections 129(3) and 129(4) should be combined into grievances. These amendments make school board one section, and amended to read as fo llows: practices and policy grievable under the collective agreement. Grievances not settled locally will be referred The arbitrator shall, in respect of matters that might to a grievance arbitration board. No process is proposed reasonably be expected to have fm ancial effect on the withinwhich the arbitrator will decide the grievance. schooldivision or school district, base his or her decision on the school division's or school district's ability to pay, Thiswould be a very different process than the fa irness as detennined by: test described in Section 80 of The Labour Relations Act. In that act, the process is clearly defmed. Specific (a) its current revenues, including the funding received collective agreement wording fo nns the basis upon which fromthe government and the Government of Canada, and the arbitrator settles the grievance. The parties then take its taxation revenue; the arbitrator's decision into consideration in ensuing collective bargaining and clarify or modifythe collective (b) the nature and type of services that the school agreement wording. division or school district may have to reduce in light of the decision or award, if the current revenues of the ' school division or school district are not increased; Bill 72 proposes that arbitration boards review a school board's practice or administration of board policy (c) the current economic situation in Manitoba and in the to detennine whether it is fa ir and reasonable. school division or school district; Arbitrator's decisions would become intrusive in the school board's setting of policy. School boards do not (d) a comparison between the tenns and conditions of acceptthe proposition that significant issues such as class employment of the teachers in the school division or size, teacher evaluation and staffing decisions could be school district and those of comparable employees in the decided by an arbitrator. The proposed Section 131.4(2) public and private sectors, with primary consideration would allow an arbitrator to usurp the right of an elected given to comparable employees in the school division or school board to decide these matters. school district or in the region of the province, in which the school division or school district is located; In those few divisions with collective agreement wording covering items contained in Section 126(2), we (e) the need of the school division or school district to have further concerns that a teacher could access recruit and retain qualified teachers. grievance arbitration bothunder the legislation and based upon specific collective agreement provisions. Matters not referred to Arbitration/Obligation To Act Fairly (Sections 15 and 22) MAST's Position: 742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996

- MAST supports the list of matters not referable fo r fo r eighteenmont hs. As collective bargainingconsumes arbitration contained in Section 15 of Bill 72 [PSA considerable amounts of time and energy, it seems Section 126(2)]. reasooable that the transition should be accomplished by a longer rather than shorter term collective agreement. - MAST supports the obligation to act fitirly contained in Section 22 of Bill 72 [PSA Section 131.4(1)). MAST's Position:

- MAST is opposed to the provisions of the subsection MAST believes that current Public School Act fa ilure to comply, contained in Section 22 of Bill 72 provisions allowing school boards and local associations [PSA Section 131.4(2)]. to negotiate the term of the collective agreement and notice provisions should be continued. - MAST supports replacing the proposed PSA Section 131.4(2) with the same wording as is curre:ntly contained - Should an expiry date other than December 31 be in Section 80 of The Labour Relations Ac:t. legislated, transition agreements should be at least 12 months plus the number of months to the new expiry Term o( Collective Agreement/Notie1� Provisions/ date. Transitional Provisions (Sections 4, 23, 32, 33, 34) Related Matters Discussion: MAST believes that there is no compelling reason for school boards to have a common collective New Provisions fo r Part 8 of The Public Schools Act agreementexpiry date,and that school boards and teacher Regarding Employee Vote on School Board's Final Offer associations should continue to have flexibility to negotiate the term of collective agreeme111ts and notice In 1984 MAST adopted a policy that prior to arbitration, provisions. the positions of the school board should go before its teachers fo r a vote of acceptance or rejection. That There are benefits to various different models. A July resolution reads as fo llows. I effective date would bring collectiveagreements in line with the school board's fiscal year. Th,e budget year Be It Resolved That MAST urge the Minister of would correspond to the term of the awreement, as is Education to have legislation enacted to provide that contemplated in the proposed legislation. The existing all of the teachers within a school division or district January I date is the start of a teacher's work year; fo r would have the opportunity to vote upon whether to divisions which pay salariesteacher on a 12-month basis, accept or reject a school board's offer prior to the theJuly and August payments are fo r work performed in application fo r arbitration; and the previous I 0-month school year. Be It Further Resolved That MAST urge the Minister Other sections of thislegislation support local decision of Education tohave legislation enacted to provide that making basedon theunique circumstances of the division the school board vote upon whether to accept or reject ordistrict. The term of agreement should ,continue to be the teacher's proposal prior to the application for detennined locally between the school board and teacher arbitration. association. A proposed change contained in Section 72 of Bill 26, Transition Sections 33 and 34 would provide fo r a The Labour Relations Amendment Act, contains a collective agreement of less than one year. If legislation provision that would mandate a process such as the one proceeds to mandate a common expiry date for all envisioned above. There is no similar clause in Bill 72. agreements and that date is other than December 31, MAST proposes that any transition agreement should be MAST's Position: at least 12 months in duration plus the num.ber of months to the new expiry date. For example, if there were to be - MAST proposes that The Public Schools Act be a June 30 expiry date, the transition agreement would be amendedso as to includeprocess a to allow employees to October 28, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 743

vote on an employer's fm al offer, similar to the in our presentation. We trust also that you will accept amendment proposed fo r Section 72 of The Labour themin thespirit in whichthey are offered, with an eye to Relations Amendment Act. improving education fo r the more than 195,000 young people enrolled in Manitoba's public schools. Bill 57, The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act * * *

MAST has not taken a fo rmal position on Bill 57, The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act. However, Faxed presentation ofTricia Hallson we would ask that theLegisl ature bear in mind the views and concerns of Manitoba's public school boards when Tricia Hallson: Honourable elected members of the considering this legislation. committee.

The most frequently voiced opinion on Bill 57 is that I would like to make known my protest about Bill 72 the $50,000 threshold is inappropriate, and that if which currently stands before you fo r revision. I am a anyone's compensation is to be disclosed, everyone's taxpayer and parent and have lived all my life in this should be disclosed. Many trustees also question the province, secure in the knowledge that the education wisdom of this legislation in light of its potential infrastructure thatthe public has put in place is one of the negative impact, particularly in small communities. They best in the world. With the advent of Bill 72, the very are also concerned about the increased workload this fabric of our future will erode before our eyes. There would cause, and have suggested that if such legislation must be a fm n "no" vote to the attack on the arbitration is to be implemented, it should utilize an existing processof schoolboards and teachers (Clauses 1 10, 129, reporting procedure, such as T4's. 110.2 6(2) a & b, et cetera) because these changes serve to cripple the fa irness to the one and only facilitator of We would also like to note that, as is the case with education in the classroom, the teacher. much of the legislation currently before the Legislature, the provisions ofBill 57 may become redundant or could It is a common misconception in the province that come into conflict with a revised Freedom of Information teachers are overpaid. In fa ct, teachers in Manitoba are Act, which we understand will take fo rce within the next only the fo urth highest paid in all of Canada, making year or so. Should all of the legislation currently before their situation in reality only middle of the road. It is also the Legislature be passed into law, school boards will be a popular belief by members of cabinet obviously that required toprovide various groups and the public at large educationand the spending associated with it is a liability with a wide range of information, under a variety of that burdens the taxpayers. On the contrary, all the legislative authorities. It would seem to us a simpler, members of Legislature along with their aides and more efficient and less confusing process if as many employees are the beneficiaries of the type of quality access to information issues as possible were covered education that has been provided in Manitoba fo r many under one piece of legislation. It would seem that the years. The providers have been the dedicated teachers most logical piece of legislation fo r that purpose would who make learning a worthwhile endeavour in Manitoba be a revised Freedom of Information Act. and the taxpayers who employ them. I am sure if this matter was put to a referendum tomorrow (as many Conclusion democratic societies do), the majority of Manitobans would not be in fa vour of dismantling an institution such On behalf of the Manitoba Association of School asthe public education system. However, this is one bill Trustees, thank you once again for this opportunity to thatwill serve to directly contravene that which has been convey to you the views and concerns of Manitoba's established as safeguards to this system. public school trustees regarding proposed amendments to The Public Schools Act contained in Bill 72. These Our children need a future that is filled with amendments have the potential to impact significantly on opportunity, not rife with despair. Many in our national public education in our province. We trust that you will and international community will judge us by the give due consideration to the suggestions we have offered implications of what we decide here on this matter and 744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 28, 1996 what it says about our values and compassion. When already are doing, preparing fo r and ensuring our Manitoba is set to be an attraction of technological province's prosperity into the twenty-first century. industry, we will not even be in the running becauseour workforce will be less well educated than our neighbours I thank you fo r your valuable time and worthwhile in other provinces, and it will all be part of the historical consideration. legacyof whatthe Conservative governm€:nthas brought to bear in the name of progress. Sincerely, Manitoba does not have to be a place of desperation Tricia Hallson and need though. Abrogating Bill 72 will mean that the 21 7 Berrisford Avenue future of our children's education will be! a meaningful Selkirk, Manitoba institution and that their teachers can do what they RIAOAS