House of Commons Education Committee
Children first: the child protection system in England
Fourth Report of Session 2012–13
Volume II Oral and written evidence
Additional written evidence is contained in Volume III, available on the Committee website at www.parliament.uk/educom
Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 30 October 2012
HC 137-II Published on 13 November 2012 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £21.50
The Education Committee
The Education Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Department for Education and its associated public bodies.
Membership at time Report agreed: Mr Graham Stuart MP (Conservative, Beverley & Holderness) (Chair) Neil Carmichael MP (Conservative, Stroud) Alex Cunningham MP (Labour, Stockton North) Bill Esterson MP, (Labour, Sefton Central) Pat Glass MP (Labour, North West Durham) Damian Hinds MP (Conservative, East Hampshire) Charlotte Leslie MP (Conservative, Bristol North West) Siobhain McDonagh MP (Labour, Mitcham and Morden) Ian Mearns MP (Labour, Gateshead) David Ward MP (Liberal Democrat, Bradford East) Craig Whittaker MP (Conservative, Calder Valley)
Nic Dakin MP (Labour, Scunthorpe), Tessa Munt MP (Liberal Democrat, Wells) and Lisa Nandy MP (Labour, Wigan) were also members of the Committee during the inquiry.
Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk
Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/education-committee
Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Dr Lynn Gardner (Clerk), Geraldine Alexander (Second Clerk), Penny Crouzet (Committee Specialist), Emma Gordon (Committee Specialist), Benjamin Nicholls (Committee Specialist), Ameet Chudasama (Senior Committee Assistant), Caroline McElwee (Committee Assistant), and Paul Hampson (Committee Support Assistant)
Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Education Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6181; the Committee’s e-mail address is [email protected]
Witnesses
Wednesday 19 October 2011 Page
Jim Gamble, former Head of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP),and John Goldup, National Director, Development and Strategy, Ofsted. Ev 1
Professor Harriet Ward, Professor of Child and Family Research and Director, Centre for Child and Family Research, University of Loughborough, Professor Nina Biehal, Research Director, Children and Young People’s Social Work Team, University of York, and Dr Marion Brandon, Senior Lecturer in Social Work and Director of Post-Qualifying Programmes, University of East Anglia. Ev 11
Wednesday 2 November 2011
Theresa Lane, Headteacher, Rachel McMillan Nursery School and Children’s Centre, Deptford, Dr Richard Quirk, Named GP Safeguarding Children, NHS West Sussex, NHS East Sussex Downs and Weald, and NHS Hastings and Rother, and Emma Grove, Assistant Head, George Green’s School, Tower Hamlets. Ev 21
Sue Minto, Head of ChildLine, John Cameron, Head of NSPCC Adult Helpline and Joe Ferns, Director of Research, Development and Operations, The Samaritans. Ev 32
Wednesday 30 November 2011
Joanna Sharpen, Children and Young People’s Co-ordinator, Against Violence and Abuse (AVA), Prospera Tedam, Chair, Africans Unite Against Child Abuse (AFRUCA), Kathy Rowe, Chair, Karma Nirvana, and Colin Walker, Deputy Director, End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and Trafficking Children for Sexual Purposes (ECPAT UK). Ev 40
Judith Dennis, Policy Manager, Refugee Council, Andy McCullough, Head of Policy and Public Affairs, Railway Children, Christine Lenehan, Director, Council for Disabled Children, and Mark Johnson, Founder, User Voice. Ev 51
Tuesday 13 December 2011
Martin Narey, Government Adviser on Adoption, and John Hemming MP, Founder and Chairman, Justice for Families Ev 60
Wednesday 11 January 2012 Page
Phillip Noyes, Director of Strategy and Development, NSPCC, Kate Wallace, Deputy Director Policy and Research, Barnardo’s, and Enver Solomon, Policy Director, The Children’s Society. Ev 76
Wednesday 7 March 2012
Jennie Stephens, Strategic Director People, Devon County Council, Rory McCallum, Head, Child and Adult Protection, Devon County Council, Nigel Richardson, Director of Children’s Services, and Steve Walker, Deputy Director, Safeguarding, Specialist and Targeted Services, Leeds City Council. Ev 92
Sue Woolmore, Independent Chair, Wigan Safeguarding Children Board, and Chair, Independent LSCB Chairs’ Network, and Jane Held, Independent Chair, Leeds and Birmingham Safeguarding Children Board. Ev 105
Wednesday 16 May 2012
Peter Davies, Chief Executive, Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. Ev 113
Dr Shade Alu, Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and Dame Moira Gibb CBE, Chair Social Work Reform Board. Ev 122
Tuesday 22 May 2012
Professor Eileen Munro, Professor of Social Policy, London School of Economics. Ev 132
District Judge Nicholas Crichton, Family Drug and Alcohol Court, and Anthony Douglas, Chief Executive, Children and Families Courts Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS). Ev 139
Monday 11 June 2012
Tim Loughton MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children. Ev 148
List of printed written evidence
1 John Hemming MP, Justice for Families Ev 164 2 Karma Nirvana Ev 168 3 ECPAT UK (End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes) Ev 170 4 Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills (Ofsted)Ev 174, Ev 213 5 Loughborough University Ev 178 6 Barnardo’s Ev 179 7 Refugee Children’s Consortium Ev 184 8 Against Violence and Abuse (AVA) Ev 189, Ev 214 9 Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) Ev 191, Ev 222 10 Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) and National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty of Children (NSPCC) Ev 194 11 National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) Ev 197, Ev 217 12 Professor Nina Biehal, Social Policy Research Unit, University of York Ev 204 13 Railway Children Ev 205 14 Leeds City Council Ev 208 15 Devon County Council Ev 210 16 Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) Ev 227 17 Children’s Society Ev 229 18 Department for Education Ev 235 19 Dr Richard Quirk, Lead GP, NHS West and East Sussex Ev 236 20 Jane Held Ev 237
List of additional written evidence
(published in Volume III on the Committee’s website www.parliament.uk/educom)
1 Jim Phillips Ev w1 2 Nigel King Ev w1 3 Children and Families Across Borders (CFAB) Ev w3, Ev w262 4 Department for Education Ev w5 5 Dr Richard Quirk, Lead GP, NHS West and East Sussex Ev w6 6 Professor Susan White (University of Birmingham); Professor David Wastell (University of Nottingham); Dr Geoff Debelle (Birmingham Children’s Hospital); Dr Suzanne Smith (Pennine Acute Hospitals Trust); and Dr Chris Hall (University of Durham) Ev w8 7 Medical Protection Society (MPS) Ev w12 8 Ian Joseph Ev w13 9 Children are Unbeatable! Ev w17 10 Vanguard Consulting Ev w21 11 28 Too Many Ev w25 12 Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Ev w25
13 Florence Bellone Ev w30, Ev w257 14 Child Welfare and Research Unit, Lancaster University Ev w33 15 Family Rights Group Ev w36 16 Dr Roger Morgan OBE, Children’s Rights Director for England Ev w46 17 Dr Liz Davies, Reader in Child Protection, London Metropolitan University Ev w50 18 Centre for Family Policy and Child Welfare, London Metropolitan University Ev w54 19 Children England Ev w60 20 The Consortium of Expert Witnesses to the Family Courts Ev w63 21 The Association of Child Psychotherapists Ev w64 22 British Association of Social Workers (BASW) Ev w66 23 General Medical Council (GMC) Ev w70 24 Parents Against Injustice (PAIN) Ev w74, Ev w251 25 Association for Improvements in Maternity Services (AIMS) Ev w75, Ev w185 26 Magistrates’ Association Ev w83 27 Coram Children’s Legal Centre Ev w86 28 Social Care Institute for Excellence (SCIE) Ev w88 29 Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisations (IKWRO) Ev w91 30 Centre for Child and Family Research, Equality Now Ev w95 31 Local Government Group Ev w98 32 Professor June Thoburn, University of East Anglia Ev w101 33 BT Ev w116 34 South Essex Rape and Incest Crisis Centre (SERICC) Ev w117 35 Beatbullying Ev w119 36 Association of Directors of Children’s Services (ADCS) Ev w120, Ev w199 37 ACPO lead for Children Protection and Abuse Investigation Ev w124 38 Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre Ev w128 39 IMKAAN Ev w133 40 4Children Ev w137 41 National Deaf Children Society Ev w141 42 False Allegations Support Organisation Ev w143 43 Law Society Ev w145 44 National Council for Voluntary Services (NCVYS) Ev w146 45 Office of the Children’s Commissioner Ev w150 46 Serious Organised Crime Agency Ev w154 47 Jane Ellison MP Ev w156 48 Foundation for Women’s Health Research and Development (FORWARD) Ev w157 49 NHS Confederation Ev w160 50 Association of Lawyers for Children Ev w165 51 The Children’s Society Ev w167 52 Designated Professionals Network Ev w170 53 End Violence Against Women Ev w174 54 The Princess Royal Trust for Carers Ev w178 55 Shaun O’Connell Ev w181 56 Nisai Virtual Academy Ev w193 57 Advice on Individual Rights in Europe (AIRE) Ev w195
58 National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) Ev w197 59 The Adolescent and Children’s Trust Ev w201 60 National Children’s Bureau (NCB) Ev w203 61 Women’s Aid Federation of England Ev w206 62 Jan Loxley-Bolount Ev w224 63 Dianne Harper and Paul Staniforth Ev w227 64 Alastair Patterson Ev w229 65 Jude Murray Ev w235 66 Kathy Rowe and Joyce Plotnikoff (Director, Lexicon Limited) Ev w235 67 Julie Haines, Justice for Families Ev w238 68 Peter Bentley Ev w247 69 Janine Halmshaw Ev w249 70 Jerry Lonsdale Ev w253 71 Mrs Jan Murray and Mrs Karen Wynne Ev w255 72 Jane Held Ev w259 73 Professor Judith Masson, School of Law, University of Bristol Ev w260 74 Action for Children Ev w265
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Education Committee: Evidence Ev 1
Oral evidence
Taken before the Education Committee on Wednesday 19 October 2011
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Neil Carmichael Ian Mearns Bill Esterson Tessa Munt Pat Glass Lisa Nandy Damian Hinds Craig Whittaker ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Jim Gamble, former head of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP), and John Goldup, National Director, Development and Strategy, Ofsted, gave evidence.
Chair: Gentlemen, good morning, and thank you for right discussions, but on the ground people still are joining us today at this first witness session on our not talking to each other. The other key variability is inquiry into the child protection system. Mr Goldup— to do with the system as a whole and the critical may we use your first names? We tend to be relatively place—it is very much a theme of Professor informal here. Munro’s—that early identification and early help play John Goldup: Of course, of course. in an effective child protection system. When child protection as a discrete area of work sits on its own Q1 Chair: I will call you John, if I may. The and is isolated from that wider range of services, what Government announced last Friday its preferred we find is that it very easily develops a kind of siege candidate for the role of new Chief Inspector of mentality and is at risk of being overwhelmed by the Schools, Michael Wilshaw. Assuming that this demands placed upon it. That is a key area, as well. Committee endorses his appointment, what will be the headline of your initial briefing to him about the key Q3 Chair: Thank you, and we will examine some of current risks in the child protection system? those areas more obviously, as the session goes on. John Goldup: I think the real headline will be about Jim, the Deputy Children’s Commissioner, Sue variability—that the challenge in the child protection Berelowitz, last week launched a major investigation system is the unacceptable level of variability between into the sexual exploitation of children by gangs. Does local authorities and local partnerships in the your experience suggest that she is right to estimate effectiveness with which they protect children in their that thousands of children are being exploited in that area. It is a territory in which generalisations about way? the state of child protection need to be treated with Jim Gamble: I think she is right to commence gaining some caution. We see much very good practice, and a some academic, empirical evidence before we make lot of very innovative practice, but we see far too statements about the tens of thousands. The gang much variability and far too many authorities who at culture issue is another example of how we are the moment are failing to protect children in their misusing labels to distract attention. We are not areas adequately. understanding that these are groups of local men, most often offending against local children in a vulnerable Q2 Chair: To what extent is this about resources and environment. The “gangs” label, to me, seems to be to what extent is it about capability and commitment? another poor attempt to divert attention by saying that John Goldup: Clearly the resource position is difficult this is somehow an organised crime issue, rather than in many ways, but it is not about resources. The a child protection issue. I am glad that Maggie differences and variation between authorities are not Atkinson and others are carrying out some detailed, about differences in resources, demand, pressure, size, in-depth analysis, so that when we talk about it in or indeed deprivation. We did quite a detailed analysis future—perhaps I will not be talking about it in future, of that, and there is very little correlation between but when others do—they will be able to talk about those factors and the quality of services provided. it from an evidence base. I do not believe it is well That is not, of course, to deny that resources are understood and I think the label is misused. important when you have to make some very difficult decisions, but the variations are really much more to Q4 Chair: Why do you suggest that there is a do with the quality of leadership and of management, deliberate use of the term to deflect away from both inside the local authority and across the recognition? You clearly believe it is partnership as a whole. They are also very much to counterproductive, but is it not an attempt to suggest do with the strength of partnership working, that there is organisation here, not just individuals? strategically but also on the ground: you can find areas People are coming together on an organised basis to where strategically it seems well in place and exploit children sexually, and this is on a much larger everybody is sitting around the right table having the scale than perhaps— cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 2 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup
Jim Gamble: It depends on the purpose. You have to is organised criminality because these people come put this in the broader context of this Government’s together. If you go to Belfast, Birmingham or approach to child protection. I believe their criminal Brighton, you will find groups of youths who come justice-led approach will mask the symptom but not together for a variety of reasons. If that group is so deal with the root cause of the problem. In essence, I minded and they find the opportunity that they can come from the position that we have been aware of engage these vulnerable young women, they do so. It grooming for many years; it is an offence that is is about how you interdict that, and how you do it at predominant across all sections of the community, the earliest stage. where you have sexual predators. On the gang Where you have organised crime enterprises involved influence, the word “gang” at the moment is unhealthy in this—and we need to differentiate—who are and unhelpful, because it labels, so I welcome the fact actually running it as a business, then of course that that they are carrying out academic research so that is different. That is organised crime, but I see no we better understand the nature of the groups that evidence, and previously did not see any evidence, to come together to exploit young and vulnerable suggest that that is the majority of cases. The majority women, but we should not allow that to be confused, of children are abused by local people whom they as it is in the public’s mind, with organised know, who form relationships with them that they then criminality, because that is what it is not. It is not exploit. Internal trafficking as a label is unhelpful. I organised crime in the sense that there is a profit think gangs as a label is becoming unhelpful. Child motive. Very often—and I have spoken to a number protection is the issue, and how we prevent groups of of senior police officers before coming here today— young men abusing vulnerable young women and men the motive is the sexual motivation of and in itself, in the areas where they live is important. I welcome which is exactly what we find with nests of the fact that they will be seeking more academic paedophiles on the internet. evidence, because I think we need a more We are in danger of moving away from the simplistic evidence-based approach. At the moment, even approach, which is that local children should get local standing outside the system, what I see is a knee-jerk care from local authorities. Where we aim to bring to reaction following every incident: what is the easiest bear the resources from an organised crime element, rhetoric to deliver, to reassure in the first instance, but we need to be careful that their system is to push it all down the line in the second? I do not fundamentally different from the child protection one. think my views on that are secret. It is longer; it is on pattern of life. They will take a longer time to do a job that moves away from the Q6 Chair: Do you think CEOP is giving sufficient early intervention that we want to see in child importance to missing children? I think it was three protection. Look at some of the cases in Derby and months ago that the Government announced there Lancashire and elsewhere: in the Derby case I personally believe there could have been much earlier would be this new CEOP-led missing children’s unit, intervention. The evidence available in the aftermath but The Observer reported on Sunday that as yet only of the complaint, on the offenders’ laptops and two specialists have been appointed. Is there a sign of phones, would have provided the opportunity for early lack of urgency there, or are they just making sure disclosure by children, for evidential collection and they get it right? for holding those individuals to account, instead of Jim Gamble: First of all, for the record, we lobbied several years of investigation which allowed children for a long time within CEOP for missing children to to continue to be abused while the investigation was be consolidated there, because trafficked children are ongoing. It creates a context of organised criminality, missing children, although I think they receive a when, if it is going to focus on child protection, it is second-class service, because they happen to come about early intervention and education. from another jurisdiction. We wanted to build on what CEOP have done around the academic evidence Q5 Craig Whittaker: On that topic, I know that in platform they had on trafficked children—who they my constituency we have had incidences of child were, where they came from, what their journey was, sexual exploitation, particularly in the line of how they went missing from care—looking at the grooming children for the sex trade. Is that not runaways, the throwaways, the children who are organised crime anyway? It is done for profit. Yes, it forced out. We lobbied hard for that. The previous is sexual exploitation, but it is definitely an organised Government had agreed to put missing children in group of people who are doing it for profit. CEOP. This Government delayed that process, as they Jim Gamble: If you have an organised group of did with so many of the initiatives that they have people who are doing it for profit, who have been introduced since they came in. I think that they have convicted on the basis of that trafficking—there have introduced a sense of inertia. They have created been very few convictions in such cases; maybe there vacuums where in child protection we have been have been more in the nine and a half months since I forced to pause, uncertain about the direction we will left, but I am not aware that there have been—I would take. From my point of view, it is great that CEOP like to see the evidence of the for-profit motive. The has it, but in an environment where they are facing a motive in most cases is about kudos; it is about the 10% year-on-year budget cut, but being given sexual motivation of the individual predator, sharing additional responsibility, I would like to know how the commodity that they begin to treat the child as they now are going to be able to do it, apart from with their other peers. There is simply not enough applying the veneer of a top-line website. I am not research done. We jump to the conclusion that this sure. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 3
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup
Q7 Pat Glass: I have worked with the child appetite in the system for change. I think that that is protection system from the point of view of education very much connected with training, particularly and I recognise many of the issues that Munro raised, multi-agency training. We have certainly found in particularly around a focus on paperwork filing and inspection that where Local Safeguarding Children on the family as opposed to the child. I remember Boards have effective and well audited multi-agency once going into a child protection meeting where a training programmes in place, they make a major lady who had been filing in my office the week before contribution to helping professionals from different suddenly sat across the table from me as an agencies work together. There are clearly issues about unqualified social worker. There are real issues. What streamlining and simplifying the mass of guidance and do you think are the main challenges to the system in prescription that has grown up, but at the same time implementing Munro? needing to make sure that there are clear standards John Goldup: In implementing Munro? of accountability within which professional practice Pat Glass: Or reforming the system. is delivered. John Goldup: There are clearly a number, although I think the thrust of Professor Munro’s Q9 Chair: Can Jim come in here? recommendations is absolutely the right direction of Jim Gamble: We are largely in agreement on this. I travel. We are working very hard on that, seeking to think the Munro Review has the opportunity to reflect that very much in the changes we are making rehabilitate some of the damage done by this to inspection. I think there are challenges to do with Government to the child protection community. When culture and changing very embedded ways of thinking they came in they arbitrarily scrapped ContactPoint, about problems that have built up over a long period they shelved the NSDU, which was implementing the of time. Professor Munro herself identifies some of Laming update following Baby Peter, which I do not the key factors in that in her report. There are real understand. It has been described to me by a chief challenges in the legacy that many, many local executive of a leading charity as “political authorities are still struggling with of the development vandalism”, although ironically he does not feel able of IT and recording systems in the early 2000s. These to come out and say that himself. The Government were based on requirements to comply with very rigid may want to reflect on how difficult it is for people in centralised specifications and are quite a large part of the third sector and elsewhere to challenge them when what is tying social workers to spend too much time they see that going on deaf ears. They disbanded Sir on computers putting in data, often repetitive data, and Roger Singleton’s Expert Advisory Group, which for not being able to spend enough time working with the first time in my experience brought together the children and families. That is an ongoing struggle. key strategic leads across policing, social care, health, There is also a challenge in making sure that in Cafcass, Ofsted and others, where you were able to making this big shift of emphasis from a focus on build a mutual understanding and respect, and there process and procedure, which is characterised as was a chance for that. Sir Roger Singleton then left. bureaucracy, to a focus on practice we do not underestimate how important safe processes are in The Munro Review, with the Chief Social Worker, has delivering safe services. They are not somehow real potential. I think the Social Work College coming mutually opposed to each other. For example, if you from the Social Work Taskforce has massive potential, have referrals coming in that are building up in a duty but one of the faculties must be a Protective Services basket, and nobody is looking at them or responding Faculty, whereby police officers, young and old, those to them because there are not safe processes in place from health, those from social care, those from for ensuring the regular tracking of work and regular children’s care, collaborate in their training and work management oversight, it is a process and procedural together. That will build their confidence in each failure, but it puts children at risk. There is a other’s competence. sophistication needed in thinking about the The problem, as you say, with bureaucracy is that had contribution that safe processes make to safe practice, we learned the lessons in the Pemberton domestic which can be lost in the over-characterisation of violence review, we would not have the issue that everything to do with process and procedure as simply Nottingham now faces in their review of a domestic bureaucracy. That is not in any way, from my violence case recently. We repeat the same mistakes perspective, to dispute the central thrust of Professor over and over again. It is not about blame culture, it Munro’s work, but I think it is a key point to bear is about a responsible culture when you are involved in mind. in child protection. That is down to leadership. The review that has been carried out by Professor Munro Q8 Pat Glass: I agree. I think that bureaucracy is a would be much better engaged and delivered if pain until something goes wrong, but how do we shift leadership of it was to move entirely, for child that culture so that there are the right back-up systems, protection and safeguarding, to the Department for but we move away from this risk-averse system where Education. In my view, if the Home Office and the the focus is not on the child? Is it about training? Is it Ministry of Justice play a role in safeguarding, that about raising the profile of the social worker? should be a secondary role under the leadership of John Goldup: It is inevitably about a whole range of the Department for Education, whose single focus is factors. I think it is important to say, certainly from protecting children. I believe by spreading the the context I have and the inspection work we do, that leadership you cause conflict and confusion, and lose there is a real appetite in the system for change. There the child focus, because the other areas will have a is an anxiety about change as well, but there is a real different approach. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 4 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup
Finally on Munro, the serious case review is the most there to give the Government advice as a children’s critical aspect. If we are going to improve the advocate on what was best for children. That was not confidence in their own competence of our bureaucracy. That was preventing them from going off professionals who are out there dealing with this with more haste and less speed down these avenues, complex work, serious case review needs to be where they end up parking the initiative, whatever it radically overhauled. It needs to be quicker and it is in, the driveway of indecision while they have a needs to assimilate the information and do what it listening exercise. In the meantime what you do is to never did in the past, which is share it in a timely fundamentally undermine the confidence of the child fashion across the country. If you have a serious case protection community—those people who are going review in Belfast, Birmingham or Brighton, they may out every day to make difficult decisions. Bureaucracy learn something there, but the blame culture means is the nonsense forms that we looked at when we that they will probably mitigate as much of it as they looked at RIPA, where instead of having seven forms can, but it most certainly will not be shared across the you had 15. Why? Because people, in their own entire UK geography. Waiting a year or two years for self-protection, delivering local services, were adding that sharing is not good enough. I think Munro is a different layers. That is unnecessary bureaucracy. fabulous report, if it is able to be implemented. Leadership, through what Sir Roger Singleton was Pat Glass: You were doing really well until you said doing—coherent communication across strategic leads that it should all go into the Department for within his Expert Advisory Group—was changing Education. I disagree with that, but I am willing to things for the better. Look at Cafcass and the way be persuaded. the discussion from there has led now to multi-agency partnership in Cafcass, which is dealing with a Q10 Craig Whittaker: I absolutely agree with what problem that lay about for 10 years. Why? Because you say, Jim, about serious case reviews. There has to the right leaders were there, and we decided: “Why be a huge disparity down on the front line. What I do not put police IT equipment into the Cafcass not understand is you defending the huge burden of headquarters? If you can employ a civilian in the bureaucracy and red tape above it that has evolved police to carry out those checks, you can pay a civilian over many, many years and just put on top of things. and vet them properly to carry it out as part of a It is all right talking about strategy-level multi-agency team.” communication, but where it really lacks is on the front line. That is where the huge failure, in my Q12 Craig Whittaker: With all due respect, this experience of being a local Member at the front line, Committee went to a school in Leicester recently, and has been. There is a protectionism around health, the for the Cafcass person who attended, it was the first police and the local authority, which have become time they had been seen in Leicester for two years. empires. Again, I go back to the fact that it is alright talking at Jim Gamble: We agree. Let me give you an example. the highest strategic level, but if it is not going near CEOP was a child protection entity, fundamentally the front line, as it was not— multi-agency by its nature; it had evolved to be Jim Gamble: Let me take your example, then. When multi-agency. However, it is necessary bureaucracy. the Cafcass staff are drawn into the centre to carry out When you were involved, you needed to make sure risk assessment, they will not be out in schools. When that you were delivering best practice, because you you have a more streamlined risk assessment, driven would be tested in the serious case review and held to by better IT and more coherent, engaged partnership, account when you were not; but in CEOP as was, that will release people to be able to engage more affiliated to the Serious Organised Crime Agency, effectively with schools. We talk about technology, yet when we wanted to employ child protection experts neither the Laming update nor the Munro review we could not, because the Serious Organised Crime looks at the opportunities through modern social Agency had too many officers at a particular level, so media. If I were a social worker now, going out to we had to take their overflow. The bureaucracy was look at a child in your care, I should be able to, applied equally all the way through. I could provide through either a Google+ or a Facebook mechanism, the Committee with the letters that I wrote, supported with closed appropriate security, share my findings by psychologists and child protection experts, that immediately with the social care and police team said, “This bureaucracy needs to be removed, and dealing with that child. There are means by which we placing a small child protection entity under the can positively use social media—which already exists, auspices of an organisation facing in a different we do not have to invent or build it—to share direction, doing a different job, adds it.” It is getting information effectively, quickly and cheaply. Those compliance right: the right policy, the right practice, are the things that will radicalise how we approach the right compliance regime. this, not stripping out what we see as bureaucracy, which is really the guidelines that we need. Q11 Craig Whittaker: My point to you then is that The problem with the Pemberton Review in Thames you are complaining that this Government has Valley Police was that they did not have policy for stripped down and done away with some of this too long. They did not have policy, so they could not bureaucracy. That is exactly what it was, that is the possibly have practice that followed that policy. reason why some of these things have gone—it is Because they did not have practice, the compliance because of exactly the point you have just made. regime that then went to look at it could not look at Jim Gamble: Then we are in complete disagreement. anything because it was not there. That has been heard Sir Roger Singleton, as an independent advisor, was again in Nottingham. My fear is that this word cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 5
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup bureaucracy is used as a blanket term, which means Ofsted deemed 40% of serious case reviews to be very little unless you specify what you are talking inadequate. Has that improved? about. John Goldup: Yes. In terms of the judgment that we Chair: Craig, as we have touched on serious case make on the quality— reviews, this might be the moment in which to ask Chair: John, can I bully both of you? We have limited John about serious case reviews as well. To be fair, time, so give me short, punchy answers. on the Leicester visit, I think it was the CAMHS John Goldup: The short answer to that is yes. In service they made that particular point about, not 2007Ð2008, as you say, we were at 40% inadequate; Cafcass— in 2010Ð11 we found 5% to be inadequate, and in the Craig Whittaker: Yes, it was. first six months of this year, when we have evaluated 55 reviews, we have not judged any to be inadequate. Q13 Chair:—just for the record. John, do you want In terms of the quality of learning that is occurring to comment on lessons of how we can improve on our through the review process at a local level, there is a use of serious case reviews, and make sure, as Jim very significant improvement. and everyone says, that we learn the lessons? It seems that we keep making the same mistakes again and Q17 Craig Whittaker: Is that in compliance in again, and we do not make sure that the lessons are regards to filling out the paperwork and following the learned more widely. How can we do that? process, or is it in the physically being a useful tool? John Goldup: There is a difference, to some extent, John Goldup: It certainly is not to do with between the effectiveness with which serious case compliance and filling out the paperwork, because that reviews are used to learn lessons on a local basis, and is not the route to a positive judgment from Ofsted on the way in which they are generalised into wider the evaluation of a serious case review. It is genuinely learning. When we go into individual local authorities down to the enormous hard work that a lot of Local on inspection, we find authorities where local serious Safeguarding Children Boards have put in to try to case reviews have been taken on board, where there make sure this is a genuinely useful vehicle and can has been very effective dissemination across agencies be translated into learning at the local level. There is an issue about generalising that learning on a wider and changes have happened as a result. We also find scale. authorities where there seems to be a chronic unwillingness to learn the lessons, and quite often that is down to the defensiveness, particularly the Q18 Craig Whittaker: As the Chair has mentioned, interagency defensiveness, that people have spoken there will come a time when you no longer deal with about. I do not think we should entirely generalise them. What would you advise those taking over serious case reviews? What should be the top priority that nobody is learning the lessons from serious case that they should adopt? reviews, because that often is happening at local level. One of the problems with learning lessons on a wider scale is that the serious case review beast has grown Q19 Chair: And when does it happen? Could you tell us that? so massively that it is now a massively expensive and John Goldup: When it happens, at the moment, is a resource-intensive way of trying to do what it is still question for the Government. Professor Munro’s fundamentally trying to do, which is to make sure that recommendation was “in due course”. I will not lessons are learned, translated into action, and the answer for the Government. We think that the time protection of children is improved. The issues that has come to end it now. We think that the Ofsted Professor Munro has really pushed to the fore about evaluation, coupled with the work of LSCBs, has whether we are doing this the right way are the right made a huge contribution to driving up the quality of issues. I think the Government has taken the view in serious case reviews, but we think the huge volume its response that an alternative model, which would of resources that it now consumes is not proportionate not involve requiring each individual agency to look to the value it continues to add. That is where we at its own practice as a key component part of the stand on when it will happen. serious case review before bringing it together, does need careful piloting and evaluation before it is rolled Q20 Chair: And the number one lesson? out as a national replacement. I think there is some John Goldup: The number one lesson is to make sure sense in that. I think the animal has grown. The other that whatever else happens in the system, and whoever thing that we try to do is to try to pull together the is responsible for overseeing it, we absolutely lessons from serious case reviews in our reports of maintain that obsessive focus on what the point of the our evaluations— whole exercise is, which is to learn lessons, to take action, and to make sure that children are better Q14 Chair: But you are not doing it anymore. protected in the future than they have been in the past. John Goldup: We are still doing it at the moment. Q21 Bill Esterson: Coming back to some of the Q15 Chair: You will not be doing it in future. earlier comments, particularly from Jim, in local John Goldup: At some point, yes. authorities there is a corporate parenting role, which Chair: Craig, have you any more questions on this? some authorities perform significantly better than others, in my experience. In the kind of delays that Q16 Craig Whittaker: I suppose as a follow-up, Jim was talking about, the real concerns around some why do we not start by asking you, John: in 2008, of those issues, it seems to me that there is the lack of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 6 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup an equivalent situation in national Government across trend. What do you expect, if that is what we get from Departments that puts children right at the centre and Government around blame culture, from people who says child protection has to be paramount. I do not are on the front line having to make the difficult know whether that is a fair comment or not, and how decisions? that sort of approach would address some of the issues that you have been highlighting. I do not know Q23 Bill Esterson: John, in your opening remarks whether a measure of all Government Departments you mentioned the number of children’s services that that have an involvement in children that puts child were judged to be inadequate in terms of overall protection first would be a step in the right direction, effectiveness. Are there common factors across or whether there is something along those lines that authorities behind this level of performance? would help. Do you both want to answer that? John Goldup: Yes, there are common factors. Those John Goldup: That absolutely is a cross-Government judgments were based on looking very closely at what issue, just as it is a cross-profession issue. Children was happening to real children, individual children, in live their lives at school, as young people needing real time. The biggest common factor was that in all healthcare, in the family—they do not live their lives those authorities, inspectors judged that there were in chunks. There absolutely is a cross-Government children who were avoidably being left at risk of issue, just as there is a cross-inspectorate issue. harm. That was the key issue. The very common Certainly at the inspectorate level we are doing a lot factors included things such as poor quality of of work at the moment to make sure that we do join assessment, lack of rigorous management oversight, that up. What the structures in Government ought to delays in responding to referrals and reports of risk, be to promote that I am not sure is a subject that it is slowness in responding when new issues and risks appropriate for me to comment on, but I am sure Jim emerged, losing the focus on the child, and being too will have a view. prepared to take at face value things that they were Bill Esterson: Jim? told. There are a lot of practice issues in common, and Jim Gamble: In short, I think it is about leadership. there are a lot of organisational and cultural issues in Of course every Government Department should have common. In a number of key cases, that judgment a principled position whereby it will support child of inadequacy has been the key catalyst to significant protection activity. However, I come back to the point changes in the local authority concerned, and a very that, when it is about children, schools and families, significant momentum for improvement, which is we need to look at those people who have the obviously a positive part of the story. overarching authority for that, be it for safeguarding or education. I believe that there needs to be a much Q24 Bill Esterson: I think previously you talked stronger lead from the Department for Education. The about self-protection at local levels, adding these Home Office and the Ministry of Justice very often layers. I forget which of you said it. deal with the symptoms when things go wrong, but John Goldup: Jim. actually the issues are about dealing with root cause Bill Esterson: It was Jim who spoke. Is the issue the in care, in school and in the home. That can only be balance between a need for national standards and done through education in my view. good local practice, and what should that balance be? John Goldup: I am not sure that the issue is about the Q22 Bill Esterson: The reason I mentioned the issue balance between good national standards, the national of measure is that what gets measured tends to get and the local, in that sense. The variation between done. Is there a simple measure or a slightly more authorities is not a variation that is responsive to complex measure that would help channel people’s differences in local need and local community focus down that route? priorities. It is variation from a standard that would be Jim Gamble: The difficulty is that what gets measured accepted by everybody both nationally and locally is generally driven by the media these days: if it about prioritising the effective protection of children. becomes an issue in the media, it becomes an issue That is the key issue. There are issues about the on the political agenda, and politicians seem only to balance between national prescription and local respond when it is an issue. I will give you an discretion, and clearly they will be fairly central to the example. I carried out a scoping review of the Munro review. The story of the IT systems that I Madeleine McCann case for the previous Government referred to is probably a classic case of when national and handed it to the Home Secretary of this centralised over-prescription has led to some difficult Government. It lay on a table for 12 months or so, results. The fundamental issue about the variation, until there was a front-page letter in The Sun directed however, is not about local need. It is about a at David Cameron, when of course he stepped in and falling-off from an accepted standard of service did the right thing, which was to implement the delivery. recommendations in that scoping review that had lain Jim Gamble: I agree with your point. I think that is about for 12 months. I do not know how you achieve your point. It is about national leadership and support that kind of influence. It would be much more to local delivery. The support is key—making sure constructive if that were achieved in a that they have the right information, shared through cross-Government body led by the Department for the learning from serious case reviews, when we have Education. Having to wait for the media to make it got it badly wrong. You have 100,000 cases that go the emotive issue, which they will—I notice Munro well and nobody applauds you for that, but if you recognises this in her first four points in her first have the one case that goes wrong, it is the focus of review—is neither healthy nor helpful, but it sets the everybody’s attention. On national leadership, Munro cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 7
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup provides a platform through the Chief Social Worker, where that responsibility will sit under the new through this Social Work College—I would like to see arrangements, and that is very much part of the that broadened. That is the type of national leadership developing picture. and support, but the Government needs to be listening and you need the cross-Government, Department for Q28 Chair: I met yesterday with the Royal College Education-led, child-focused approach to this, I of Paediatrics and Child Health, which came up, I believe, so that people believe what the Government think last year, with standards of training for says not by what they say or the rhetoric of a paediatricians, so it is up to the PCT to ensure that knee-jerk reaction today, but demonstrated by their those standards are implemented. They suggested commitment to the acts of what they actually deliver. there was variation as well. Chair: Thank you very much. Bill, I think I need to John Goldup: I think there is variation. We generally move on. find a high level of commitment at PCT level to child protection issues. It is an area where some of the Q25 Craig Whittaker: Going back to 2008 again, current uncertainty factors and resource pressures are if I can, Ofsted criticised universal services such as having an impact. We are increasingly, for example, education and health for missing signs of abuse in with our colleagues at the Care Quality Commission, children who were known to them. Has that changed? reporting vacancies in some key roles within child John Goldup: I hate to be boringly repetitive, but it protection in health in local areas, such as designated is a picture of variation. The 2008 report that you are child protection nurses. Here are some real pressure referring to, I would just caution, was a report of our evaluation at that time of 50 serious case reviews. points in the health system at the moment I believe, Now we have evaluated 537 in four years, but even and it is a period of great uncertainty and great that is a tiny fraction of the work that is being done transition. However well that is managed, that day in, day out and, of course, by definition, is looking inevitably brings risk. at cases where things have gone wrong. I think one needs to bear that in mind. The engagement of Q29 Tessa Munt: Talk to me about GPs again a bit universal services, for example schools and health more. services, is very strong in a number of areas, and I John Goldup: The key issue is that GPs hold have seen many cases where, for example, the school absolutely critical information, are obviously amongst has been a really key agent, both in terms of the first people to pick up signs of difficulty or risk, identifying problems in a family and in providing real and of course are key providers in the community of support to that family, so I think there is a lot of good ongoing care and support to families in difficulty. going on. However, in health, there are still a lot of There are some fairly chronic difficulties in many issues on the ground, for example about the difficulty areas of the country, for example, in GPs being able of fully engaging GPs with child protection issues. to attend child protection conferences, which is where the key interagency planning goes on. GPs will say Q26 Craig Whittaker: So health is still the poor that that is also often because they do not feel they partner then? are given enough notice or enough attention is paid to John Goldup: Sorry? the particular constraints and patterns of their working Craig Whittaker: Health is still the weaker partner? life to facilitate their attendance. Again, there are John Goldup: No, I am not saying that, because areas where, through the engagement of the GP again, there would be examples of good practice in community—lead GPs in an area—and the health, but I think because of the breadth of Professional Executive Committees of the PCTs, there responsibilities that health services carry, it is are some very strong relationships. sometimes difficult for them to give the priority to child protection issues that more exclusively Q30 Chair: Thank you John. Jim, could you make a child-focused services perhaps find easier to do. quick comment on health? Jim Gamble: I can only speak up to 15 January when Q27 Craig Whittaker: Jim mentioned earlier about I left, but health was the poor partner when it came to the pauses that are currently going on, the listening sharing information. There are some excellent exercises. What about the changes in the NHS? How examples of where they get it right. I spoke at the is that affecting the performance of health around national sexual abuse and trauma unit conference in child protection? Galway the other day; I work closely with the SARC John Goldup: It is affecting by anticipation at the moment. Clearly, there is a lot of instability with, for in Greater Manchester, led by Dr Cath White, who example, changes in leadership in primary care trusts would be a useful person for you to speak to; and and difficulties in recruiting or sustaining leadership there are great examples. However, I also carried out over a period of great uncertainty, so I think that is a murder review where I spoke to one GP who said how it is affecting it. There are still a number of key that this was the first case of domestic violence that questions that do need to be clarified about the impact they had come across in 18 years. of the changes. It is currently very clearly in a local area, the responsibility of the local primary care trust Q31 Tessa Munt: Can you just tell me what to ensure that the health system maintains its percentage of referrals are taken through GPs? How commitment and delivers on its responsibilities for often is there a problem raised by a GP as opposed to child protection. It is not entirely clear at the moment a social worker or a school? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 8 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup
Jim Gamble: Well, I think they would probably be as officers, talking about child protection to do with rare as hen’s teeth, but I could be wrong. I can only young Afghan boys being trafficked on the same speak from my personal experience. routes that bring in drugs and guns. The fact of the Tessa Munt: I find that extraordinary. matter is, when you talk about legislative lip service Jim Gamble: I do not know. I can only tell you from and you talk about the victims being criminalised by my own experience in one particular murder review the system, you do not have to go to Afghanistan to where the GP stated, when we interviewed that see that; you can see it happening here. It is one of person, that they had never come across another case the areas that we struggled with at the beginning. If it of domestic violence in their 18 years of practice. is going to be a mechanism that makes sure the right child is delivered into the system and protected by the Q32 Chair: John, do you want to comment on this? system, then it should be carried out by child John Goldup: I am speculating slightly, without going protection professionals, and if you read the theme of back to the hard evidence, that in terms of sources of Munro, while it does not talk about that, clearly that referrals they are probably more likely to come from is where we have got to be going. I will ask each of health visitors than GPs, for example. you: would you want your child assessed by the National Referral Mechanism before they could get Q33 Tessa Munt: Can we ask for that information? support and help or would you want them assessed by John Goldup: The other thing I just would say is a children’s services specialist? because health is a very complex system there are issues of communication, not only between health Q36 Lisa Nandy: Just to be clear, Jim: you are providers and other agencies, but actually within the recommending that actually the system is overhauled health system—so between secondary care and so it is not the UK Border Agency that makes the primary care and, indeed, sometimes between decision. different parts of primary care. Jim Gamble: Absolutely.
Q34 Chair: If we do not have that information, the Q37 Lisa Nandy: Okay. That is really helpful. Committee staff will ensure that we have it on the Typically the trafficked children that I have worked referrals and where they come from. with over the last 10 years have come into contact Jim Gamble: Can I add one very quick thing to that? with a whole host of agencies before they are When “Safety and Justice” was carried out by the identified as having been trafficked, yet, still the former Government, there was an opportunity to police are prosecuting children who are picked up in amend the Data Protection Act to create a positive cannabis factories, in nail bars and in other settings duty to actually share information when you believe a where they are clearly victims and not willing person might be at risk. That was not taken up. I think perpetrators of crimes. How do we stop this appalling that would deal with all of the ambiguity that the Data practice, given that over many years CEOP has tried Protection Act creates—and I understand it—within to put in place a framework so that that does not the health service, which prevents people, they think, happen, yet on the ground it still happens? from sharing information. Jim Gamble: I would need to see the evidence that it Chair: Thank you very much for that. Of course, as I is still happening. I will say it as I see it, and I think try to remember to say to witnesses, what we do is that there has been massive improvement. Police we conduct an inquiry; we write a report; we make understanding of the child as a victim is much recommendations to Government, who are obliged to respond. We want to understand the system through stronger. The issue is a cultural one as far as I am these sessions, but most importantly we want to concerned. When you raid a cannabis factory, are you identify changes and recommendations to going in to rescue the children or are you going in to Government that we at least have the power to force deal with the particular crime? It is getting the balance them to address and respond to, although whether they there right, and that is done through training. My fear adopt them or not immediately is up to Ministers. is that as we go back towards the criminal justice aspect, of course, we lose that. Q35 Lisa Nandy: Since the national referral mechanism was introduced, only 108 children have Q38 Lisa Nandy: Do you have any concerns about been identified as trafficked in two years, which I find the structural changes that have been made? absolutely extraordinary, having worked with many of Obviously there was a specialist team within the Met those children. The NGOs, ECPAT, Refugee Council, that was tasked with dealing with child trafficking. Do Barnardos and The Children’s Society say they are you have any concerns about that being disbanded? working with so many more than that. Can you tell Jim Gamble: Of course, but while I am highly critical the Committee what you think is going wrong in that of this Government when it comes to child protection, process? I also recognise the reality within which they have to Jim Gamble: It is an administrative process linked operate and that they need to deal with the budget probably more closely to immigration than it is to deficit that they are faced with. It is for the police child protection. The fact that it is carried out by the service to configure its resources to meet the demands UKBA probably speaks volumes and it is a really placed upon it and to do that in an appropriate way good example. I work with children and families and I think the Met example was a leading example. across borders. I was in Afghanistan several weeks The Paladin team, I think, lead the world when it ago dealing with the Afghan national police general comes to operating with trafficked children. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 9
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup
Q39 Ian Mearns: Ofsted has highlighted a particular the child’s journey, as per Professor Munro, and problem with insufficient attention being given to should children’s satisfaction be taken into account? cases where children are repeatedly referred to John Goldup: We will be introducing a new children’s services. Is inappropriate action being taken inspection framework, heavily influenced by Professor on receipt of the initial referral in these cases, or is Munro’s work next year. We will be piloting it in a there a situation where children’s services intervention few weeks’ time in a number of local authorities. To thresholds are too high? Is it a problem that the pick up your two points: we will seek to ensure that services are resource-driven, for instance? we consider the child’s journey through making sure John Goldup: The issue of repeat referrals is often a that inspection, even more than it is now—because it function of cases being closed too early, not so much very substantially is now—is based on the detailed because of threshold issues but because that is an analysis of individual cases and the experiences of attempt to manage demand and pressure by individual children, and by making sure that we look maximising the throughput of work at the expense of at those experiences at different points in the journey, the quality of the assessment and the clarity of from the point at which concerns are first raised and management oversight. Sometimes, in those areas early help either is or is not provided through to where we have identified the inappropriate use of entering into the formal child protection system and unqualified social workers as an issue, it can be a indeed out the other side, and whether children and factor there, because what we tend to find in those families are adequately supported as they move out of situations is that, in the end, cases have to be referred the child protection system. That is broadly how we back for more clarification or more information, are tackling the child’s journey. eventually leading to quite serious delays in On children’s views, it is a characteristic of the new responding. inspection framework that in a sample of the cases we The issue about thresholds is slightly different. It is a look at we will also seek to make arrangements to talk really key issue. Again, I would say on inspection we directly with both children and families about their have undoubtedly seen examples of thresholds that we views of the effectiveness of the help provided, not as have judged to be too high, and that being an issue in a basis for making a judgment but as an important terms of safety. Equally, we have inspected authorities contributory factor to making a judgment. I think that where actually the threshold has been set too low, and is slightly different from the issue of children’s I think that is partly the risk aversion issue that a satisfaction, but I think children’s views of the Member of the Committee referred to earlier. The effectiveness of the help that they have had is an consequences of that will tend to be that, because important thing for inspection to consider, yes I do. there is nowhere else to go other than social care, we will find social care services that are overwhelmed Q42 Tessa Munt: Is it not central to inspection? with large numbers of referrals, many of which could From what you have just described about looking at have been more appropriately dealt with through the child’s journey, it was looking at it from above, preventive and universal services working together. and I just wonder whether in fact there is the Thresholds can be too high; thresholds can be too low. opportunity to have much more of a testing of It is not a straightforward matter of, “Well, they are children. You use words like experience and evidence. being set too high and that is where the problem has Only children can tell you what it feels like, whereas come from”. from what I think you said to me—I will have a look at the transcript later—the suggestion was that Q40 Ian Mearns: Do you think that there is a actually you would, perhaps even through the parents, problem with the commonly understood terminology be getting a view of that journey from the outside, in terms of what constitutes neglect, for instance? I rather than what it feels like inside. There is some think the legal definition of neglect was set in the work done with high-contact families in my county of 1930s, wasn’t it? Somerset where at every point the victims of the John Goldup: There is a major issue about neglect. services is actually asked what they feel about Neglect is the most common feature in all the serious everything, and that is plotted on a graph. That is the case reviews that we evaluate. It is the area where sort of thing that you might do. professionals find the most difficulty in drawing the John Goldup: If I gave you the impression that we line and determining what is good enough. It is also were looking at this from above, I clearly gave you an area where research—I think some of your later the wrong impression. We will absolutely be looking witnesses will be able to tell you far more about this at it through the eyes of, through the experiences of, than I—very clearly demonstrates that long-term and indeed through the views of, the children neglect and intervening far too late is an absolutely involved. critical damaging factor on children’s chances of growing up happily and successfully. I think neglect Q43 Tessa Munt: But you can only do that by asking is a really key issue. the children. Ian Mearns: Thank you. John Goldup: You can only do that by asking the children and, as I said, that is something that we will Q41 Tessa Munt: The Government has accepted all be doing in the new framework significantly more four recommendations regarding Ofsted inspection of than we do at the moment. The area where I might children’s services from Professor Munro, but there is take a slightly different view is the implicit premise evidence that children’s views are not taken into in your question. Children’s views are important at all account. I just wondered, how should Ofsted examine ages, but age and stage of development and the fact cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 10 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup that they are children are issues to take into account referred to by directors of children’s services as the in weighing those views against a range of other 8.30 am call from the car park and that is the point at evidence. So the idea that children’s views should be which they know we are there, on the day we arrive. all-determining is an area where I might perhaps part company from you. Q48 Chair: Can I ask John about how you propose to carry out multi-agency inspections of child protection Q44 Tessa Munt: I have to disagree a bit. I arrangements, and just how delighted other understand what you are saying; children cannot say, inspectorates will be with you coming along to “I want this, I want that” because they may not even evaluate them as part of this? know what is out there and available. However, we John Goldup: I think there are two dimensions to are all a product of our experience and unless we that: there is multi-agency inspection and there is understand what it feels like—and we may place a multi-inspectorate inspection, and they are connected judgment on that—if we do not actually listen to but they are not entirely the same. Professor Munro children at every stage and ask them what they feel was very clear, and we absolutely endorse, that like, we are not going to have any hope of them inspection must consider the contribution of all growing up into contributing adults. agencies for the protection of children and not just see Jim Gamble: It is not for me to talk about Ofsted, it as something to be parcelled off and left with the but the make-up of the inspection team is critically local authority, although the local authority is the lead important: the fact that you have credible practitioners partner. We will do that, as Ofsted, through the very represented in that, who understand what it is like detailed case tracking and case analysis we do of the when you are delivering a frontline service. I say that experiences and outcomes of individual children and because in CEOP—and this is not Ofsted—we had the families. We look now at the contribution and the HMIC inspector, a retired deputy director from MI5, working arrangements between all the different as the lead person on the team. You might want to ask agencies involved in that. We are also doing a lot of how that was ever deemed to be appropriate. I notice work with our colleague inspectorates, so the Care in Lord Laming’s update review he does talk about Quality Commission, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of the make-up and the importance of credible staff on Constabulary, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of the inspection. If you are going to engage children, Probation, prisons, et cetera, to try to develop our you need the right staff to engage them to make options and plans for more joined up inspection, those assessments. potentially leading to multi-inspectorate teams undertaking the inspection. There are some really Q45 Tessa Munt: I absolutely understand that. I want complex issues to resolve on that, both in terms of the to just very quickly ask you about whether there is different levels of resources that are available to the any disadvantage to an unannounced inspection? different inspectorates to support a universal child John Goldup: There are certainly huge challenges in protection inspection programme, and to do with some delivering unannounced inspections effectively. really key differences in the legal basis and the remit within which the different inspectorates operate. Q46 Tessa Munt: Are there not huge challenges to announced inspections? Q49 Chair: How cooperative are they? John Goldup: Yes, absolutely. We are proposing that John Goldup: They are extremely cooperative. There these inspections be unannounced and we are working is a real commitment to try to find ways through very hard internally and with the sector to make sure those issues. we deliver that effectively. Maybe it is not so much about disadvantages, but clearly we have experience Q50 Chair: Thank you. One final question: how in doing unannounced inspections now; we have been successful are we in getting the whole community doing them for two years in local authorities going in engaged in child protection and the improvement of to look at frontline duty services. That is a very short, the system? I was just struck this morning going to focused, two-day inspection. We are now going to be the East Riding Local Safeguarding Children Board’s doing an unannounced inspection of the full range of website, a singularly poor construction; it took the child protection activity in an area over a two-week person at the other end of the phone five minutes to period. The challenge is making sure that we do not identify where on the website their annual report displace the frenetic volume of preparation and could be found. It does not suggest that there is a lot running around that local authorities feel they have to of openness to encouraging other people to play their do at the moment with a two-week notice of the part. As a Member of Parliament and Chair of this inspection into the first days of an unannounced Committee doing this inquiry, you ask yourself, inspection. The practicalities and the logistics of that “What role am I playing in understanding and is something that we are working very hard on. We improving the safety of children in my local area?” are confident we can deliver, but it is undoubtedly Talking to councillors as well, apart from the leads challenging. they often feel very excluded. How do we get everybody to be able to play a role, not driven by the Q47 Tessa Munt: Will unannounced be truly media or headlines—as Jim referred to earlier—but unannounced? When you walk in through the door on a day-to-day basis? that is the first anyone knows of your arrival. John Goldup: I think that is the issue, yes. That is a John Goldup: It will be like the unannounced really important question that probably Ofsted’s inspections we currently do, which are commonly inspection evidence does not help me very much in cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 11
19 October 2011 Jim Gamble and John Goldup answering. We recently published a report on best entities said that. You know why? Because I have practice in Local Safeguarding Children Boards and copies of the report. Why is it that the Government we have seen some very good examples of those has not released those when there have been requests? boards taking up a wider community engagement role. Up until the last time I am aware of a check, they It is generally the case, however, that child protection were saying that they were not releasing them under is one of those issues that everybody thinks is Freedom of Information. It is not about plutonium important, but that quite a lot of people think is poisoning; it is about making decisions about what is somebody else’s responsibility and it only becomes best for children and young people, and if we are really important when something goes wrong. There going to do that it has got to be about education, not is an absolutely key role in local authorities, certainly, about arresting people. for elected members and the leadership that they give in this area in their role as key representatives of and Q51 Craig Whittaker: You spoke about going into routes into those communities. The quality and schools through local volunteers. How many schools strength of corporate leadership and engagement, both in the UK? at elected-member level and at chief-executive level, Jim Gamble: What I can say is CEOP, with less than is a very significant dimension of what we look at in 100 people, had delivered an education programme to our inspection activity. 7 million children in the UK. Chair: Thank you. Jim? Jim Gamble: Engaging and empowering local people Q52 Craig Whittaker: Okay. How many schools to play a constructive role in child protection is central though? to everything that we do, because parents and carers Jim Gamble: I am not going to be able to estimate are the primary individuals involved. They are the now how many of the 30,000-plus schools in the UK ones that will either mask it and hide it or disclose it. that got into. What I will say is it covered Scotland, Having a sensible vetting regime, which does not Wales and Northern Ireland. That is a tiny entity. We deter people from becoming involved and taking a talk about this Big Society. Do we know what it role, is something that is absolutely required, as is, means? Because I think Big Society was staring the secondly, demonstrating that Government is actually Government in the face through the initiative that was listening, that it is not about false consultation. being driven there. I agree with the Government’s I want to come back to this just to finish on the CEOP push to get rid of quangos—no issue there—but the issue, because CEOP had built the potential, through good compromise, rather than to become its network into local villages, towns and cities, into compromised, was to move CEOP under the their schools, with local volunteers trained as trainers Department for Education, where the central focus to deliver those programmes into the classroom where was going to be children, and where it sat alongside children were better protected through education and education and safeguarding, which made sense, they protected one another better. We were able to because the police will always partner. It seems to me educate the professionals that were involved in the that, if you are going to talk about child protection, field in a different way. Education is key, as are that is one of the fundamental errors. We will look children’s services and social care. That is why I back in 10 years—and if I am still around, I will be believe that the Government were fundamentally looking back—still speaking about it. wrong to force CEOP into a National Crime Agency. Chair: Thank you very much. You have made a I believe that that will drive it backwards. I am sure powerful case and that is what we provide the that a great job will continue to be done by Peter and platform for. Thank you both very much for giving the staff, but the culture cannot help but shift. such interesting and full evidence to us this morning. That was not simply my opinion: there were over 30 Jim, I particularly thank you as I know you have flown submissions to a document that was 50 pages long on in from Northern Ireland and I think you are flying the National Crime Agency consultation that back to Northern Ireland, and then flying back here mentioned CEOP once, and in no specific question. I again. am led to believe that the vast majority of those Jim Gamble: I am. Many people will be glad to hear responses said, “Do not put it in there” I know the that I’m flying back to Northern Ireland. Thank you, Association of Directors of Children’s Services, many Chair. of the leading charities and many other commercial
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Professor Harriet Ward, Professor of Child and Family Research and Director, Centre for Child and Family Research, University of Loughborough, Professor Nina Biehal, Research Director, Children and Young People’s Social Work Team, University of York, and Dr Marion Brandon, Senior Lecturer in Social Work and Director of Post-Qualifying Programmes, University of East Anglia, gave evidence.
Q53 Chair: Thank you very much for joining us this As I said to the earlier panel, we conduct inquiries, morning. I hope that you are happy for us to stick we write reports and we make recommendations. with the informal manner in using first names. We are Useful and important though it is to try and build the looking forward to learning from your research, work Committee’s understanding of the system overall, so and your understanding of how to improve the system. that we can write a better-informed report, please do cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 12 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon make sure you think of any recommendations you Q55 Chair: Marian? would like to see in the report, because it is that Dr Brandon: My answer is complicated and difficult, practical end that we are most focused on. We will be as you would expect from an academic. It is laypeople at the end as we were at the beginning, but connected with what Nina and Harriet said. One of hopefully slightly better informed. the conceptual problems of working with abuse and I will start by asking: if you were to pick one thresholds is that there is an assumption that, if it is recommendation that might be accepted by not referred to children’s social care, then it is not Government as a result of this inquiry and this abuse. We know that 10% of children are living with Committee’s report, can I ask you to identify one? abuse and we cannot work and help all of those Whom shall I pick on first? Harriet? children in social care, so all of these Professor Ward: Thank you very much. One below-the-threshold agencies—teachers, GPs, health recommendation that I would like to see would be visitors—are working with child abuse, but they are some monitoring of the impact of the current not allowed to call it child abuse. That is a real economic situation and the likely retraction of some conceptual problem because we know they are doing services on the extent to which children are it and all the work cannot be handed over to social safeguarded from harm, but I think there are a whole services and social care. We need to name it and lot of layers to that. There are a number of services, recognise that if we are doing effective, early not only directed towards children but also directed intervention we are working with early stage child towards parents, that are likely to reduce stresses in abuse and neglect. A lot of GPs will be holding quite families and therefore likely to reduce the likelihood complex neglect cases. We are not recognising it and of significant harm. If some of those services are not naming it. It is tricky; it is difficult; it is retracted, I think children will become more stigmatising. Until we recognise that we are all working with abuse and neglect, not just the social vulnerable. For instance, parental substance misuse workers, people are not going to share the work and services are likely to do quite an effective job in share the responsibility. It is difficult. I am sure you reducing the harm to children. That would be one have ways to deal with it, but I think we need to thing that I would be recommending. change that— Q54 Chair: Thank you very much. You will have the Q56 Chair: So the recommendation, Marian, for opportunity during the session; I cannot stop an clarity’s sake? academic asking for more research. Of course, seeing Dr Brandon: We have to accept that you are all academics I should bar you on this first below-the-threshold work is child abuse work too. Not recommendation from recommending more research. everything can and should be referred to children’s Professor Ward: I took that as read. social care, but it is still working with abuse. Chair: You passed that without warning, but we will Professionals cannot say, “I don’t work with abuse.” take as read that more research is always required. The Children Act 2004 was very helpful in that there Nina? is a shared responsibility, but people still think, “It is Professor Biehal: I very much agree with what not really my area.” It has to be everyone’s area and Harriet is saying. Before I say what I think, I have they have to have some basic expertise. another example. I have no direct knowledge of this, but, from my reading in the social work press, one of Q57 Chair: Isn’t the early intervention report that the current impacts of reducing budgets has been that Graham Allen wrote in that area? local authorities are no longer feeling able to fund as Dr Brandon: But it is not called abuse. many children’s centres to support families. It is just Chair: The Government’s response, increasing the another example— number of health visitors; the Education Bill’s Chair: The numbers are fairly small, are they, in provision for increasing free nursery education for two terms of a reduction? year olds—is there not a whole series of policies that Professor Biehal: I don't know because it is just what are looking precisely to reach children who may be I have read in the social work press, but that really likely to be more at risk? made me think: this is going to have a knock-on Dr Brandon: It is, but it is subtle and it is conceptual. effect—we do not know what it is going to be yet— It is that acknowledgement that they are working in on all those early intervention services that we have the neglect and abuse field, albeit at an earlier stage, been talking about. We have heard a lot in the last but sometimes not at such an early stage either. From year or two as to the importance of early intervention. the work that we have done on serious case reviews, It could have a serious effect on that. That is by way we know that just under half of those are cases that of supporting what Harriet was just saying. are not being currently worked with by children’s Asking for one thing is a very hard question, but I social care. would say greater attention to the issue of thresholds for care. We have done a number of studies at York Q58 Chair: So the children for whom a serious case looking at not the front end, but the end result—what review has been conducted— happens when children have not been taken in early Dr Brandon: We are doing some more work on it at enough. It is difficult to judge what is early enough— the moment, but around about 42% are not currently that is a thorny issue that we do not have precise on the books of children’s social care. Three-quarters answers to—but I think it is something that needs of them were in the past, which is another threshold attention and that there are no easy answers. issue. I will be able to be more precise when we have cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 13
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon completed this two-year study, but it is about 42% that somewhat since the 1930s when I think it was come through as not being currently on the books of enshrined, so do we have a problem with the common children’s social care. understanding of what constitutes neglect? Professor Ward: I would say we definitely have a Q59 Chair: And you are analysing all serious case problem with what constitutes neglect. We did the reviews in England? scoping study of what was known about neglect and Dr Brandon: Yes. emotional abuse in 2004, prior to the major research Chair: Right. initiative on safeguarding children. One of the key Dr Brandon: We have done since 2003. findings there was that there was very little common Chair: And this is an interim finding on which we understanding of what constitutes neglect. Since then, should— there has been increasing evidence from the fields of Dr Brandon: It is something that we have done on a psychology and neurobiology about the impact of sub-sample of a small number of cases and we are various neglectful parental practices on children’s currently looking at it on all of the cases in one year long-term wellbeing. We need to know much more to be clearer, but we know there is a repeating story about what we actually mean when we say neglect. that a substantial minority of cases are not on the We found in the cases we have been looking at that books of children’s social care. Maybe they should be; there are children living in quite appalling maybe these are cases that have been closed too early, circumstances who are not being picked up as but a quarter are not anywhere near there, so maybe neglected. There was one child in our study, a two these are unpredictable cases. It is that sense that it is year old who was taking food out of the waste bin very complicated, difficult work and we cannot because he was not being properly fed. Those sorts of always get it right, but everyone needs to be accepting things are not being picked up as above the threshold it is part of their business. at which one would have to intervene, so I think there is a major issue. The problem is that pretty well all Q60 Chair: Analysing that over time would be parents neglect their children up to a certain point. interesting. Did you suggest at one point it was What we do not really understand is the point at which three-quarters of children that were known to it becomes unacceptable and the point at which it will children’s social care? have long-term adverse consequences. I do not think Dr Brandon: Three-quarters had previously been as a society we have identified at what stage of known to children’s social care, yes—their families or adversity we decide the consequences are so bad that themselves. If they are tiny babies they cannot have we do have to intervene. There are lots of grey areas been known themselves very much, but other siblings there that we really need to have an open debate in the family or the family had been known to about. children’s social care in the past in three-quarters of Professor Biehal: Within our study of looked-after the cases. At the time though, just over 40% were not children who were reunified with their families, we known to children’s social care. looked at their history before they came into care, and neglect was a huge issue, often not recognised for Q61 Chair: I am labouring this because I am many years or, as Harriet said, not being accepted as struggling to understand. Are you saying that in some being something that needed a response. Again, I previous year’s analysis or group of years’ analysis it could give you a string of quite shocking examples of was 75% of children? practices that have gone on for years and years before Dr Brandon: In the very early days it looked like something happened. Often with neglect something more, but I do not think that data was very robust. We then happens and the child is admitted, and services have had good information since 2005 and we know sit up and think, “Well, we have to do something that it is coming through as a theme that around 40% now”. of the cases, or possibly more, are children who are I think it is very difficult for services, if a situation not known to children's social care at the time of their has gone on simmering away for a long time, to know death or serious injury. at what point you justify intervention. That is a very difficult issue for them, but we were very shocked, Q62 Chair: I am just trying to understand whether looking at this detailed case record data, at some of this is changing over time, because if the number not these circumstances that had been allowed to persist. known has gone up that would suggest there was a Often, it only ended and the child only became looked failure of identification, an issue with thresholds or after when the mother with mental health problems something else. If it is consistent, then that is a very had a major crisis, was admitted to hospital or had a different picture. drug abuse overdose or there was an incident of Dr Brandon: It is pretty consistent since we have physical abuse, and suddenly there was a trigger. It looked at it. was waiting for a trigger rather than a proper Chair: Right, thank you. assessment of what was needed to meet that child’s needs that was really problematic. Q63 Ian Mearns: I asked this question of the Dr Brandon: I agree that waiting for a trigger is the previous panel, but I think it is an important one. Is really complicated and difficult thing in neglect. there a problem with the common understanding in Waiting for the trigger does seem to appear in quite a policy and in the field of what constitutes neglect? I lot of research, so even when there is intervention and think the definition of neglect that we are working there is neglect, sometimes physical abuse will be with is almost eighty years old. Time has moved on looked at first or sexual abuse will be thought about; cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 14 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon or even when physical abuse appears, it will be he looked at the variation, it was not about the spend, downgraded. In one case we looked at, there were but about other things. three investigations of physical abuse, but it was Professor Ward: There is a correlation between thought it was a neglect case so it did not count. I socioeconomic factors and levels of referrals and think, because often the families where there is numbers of children coming into care. neglect are very complicated, difficult and confusing for practitioners, they can overwhelm individuals Q67 Chair: I was looking more at the service rather working with the families, so they fail to see what is than the incidents on the ground. Is the quality of in front of them. One way to help that is to have very service about how much resource councils attribute to good, robust supervision, so that even when it does the area or is it about the quality of the systems? cross the threshold, social workers need to be helped Dr Brandon: It may in part be that. I am thinking of to think more clearly about what they are seeing and the differences between rural and urban areas. Urban to look at the evidence of the children’s behaviour, areas would have access to more resources and have demeanour and outcomes, so you can gauge whether more services on offer. Rural areas would maybe get the poor level is no longer acceptable. less resources, and individual workers are reliant on themselves more, so there may be less to offer in the Q64 Ian Mearns: What is behind the increase in rural areas, where there are problems with transport referrals to children's social services, and the increase and so on. in initial assessments and care applications by children’s services in the last few years? Q68 Chair: Do you have any evidence? I am Dr Brandon: It may well be that people are getting interested to know whether it is about spend or getting better at recognising what is out there because we best practice spread more widely. know that there is an under-admission of the extent of Professor Biehal: We would not have any evidence neglect and abuse generally. It may be that people are at York on spend in relation to quality, but there is doing the job better. If we are looking at this 10% of evidence on resources in relation to the nature of the population of children who are abused, then services offered. One study of preventive services for maybe we are getting closer to that—maybe it is what teenagers found that some local authorities devoted is anecdotally called the Baby P effect of people being more to their preventive services. They had ring- very scared, frightened, and wanting to be seen to act fenced money for preventive teams working with and seen to be doing something. teenagers; they were much more likely to get a service Professor Biehal: I agree with Marian. there and they were also less likely to come into Professor Ward: I think there are questions about long-term care at the end of that than the ones who whether those numbers will increase. They are likely had no dedicated service, who were very unlikely to to increase with increased unemployment, with the get one until things had got significantly worse, and number of negative factors that are likely to occur as then if they did come into care they were the ones a result of the economic situation, but there is who were more likely to stay long term. evidence to suggest that when times are bad, in fact referrals decrease because as a population we become Q69 Chair: Marian, you talked about the difference more accepting of low standards. between urban and rural areas. Is a child subject to abuse or neglect less likely to be picked up if they Q65 Ian Mearns: Does academic evaluation support live in a rural than an urban area? If they are picked Ofsted in finding variation in the effectiveness of local up, are they likely to receive a better or worse service? authorities’ child protection arrangements. What are Dr Brandon: It may be that there are fewer services the consequences of such variation in terms of to offer, so there are not the same choices. If it is a outcomes for children? hard-stretched service and there are not enough Professor Ward: There is a lot of evidence from individuals to go around, then it is difficult. There are research about variations. There is research from some pockets of rural areas where there do seem to Bristol University that suggested that there were quite be some repeating difficulties. considerable variations in case management between local authorities, and it is good leadership and good Q70 Chair: But that will also be true of urban areas. case management that has immediate impact on Dr Brandon: Yes. outcomes for children. York University has done a lot on variations, hasn’t it? Q71 Chair: Do you have any insight overall, looking Professor Biehal: Not specifically about child at the system, as to whether rural children are at protection arrangements, but you find local authority peculiar risk? Is it an area where we should be looking variation across just about everything we look at in to make recommendations? terms of adoption rates, applications for special Professor Ward: I doubt whether it is a rural/urban guardianship, quality of planning, proportions of issue. Spend would be worth looking at, particularly children experiencing instability in care or more stable the proportion of spend between services for children placements, which is a lot to do with planning, support in the community and services for children in care— and supervision as well—it is right across the board. that makes quite a difference—and spend relating to mainly socioeconomic indicators of likely need. I am Q66 Chair: Is there a correlation between spend and not aware that rural areas would be a major issue. quality? John Goldup suggested earlier that, although Dr Brandon: I am just thinking in terms of what obviously resources are relevant, fundamentally, when would be available. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 15
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon
Q72 Chair: Has any analysis been done to look at The children in our research who at the start of the incidence in rural areas as against urban areas and study we thought were more likely to suffer significant outcomes? harm, severe risk children, were those whose families Professor Biehal: I am not aware of any. showed combinations of risk factors according to the David Jones methodology; no protective factors Q73 Chair: I will be calling for research. according to their methodology; and no evidence of Professor Biehal: It’s a good area for research, yes. parental change at the time the child was identified. We then followed those children through until they Q74 Bill Esterson: I came across some research that were aged three, and there was correlation—we are suggested that neglect was the most damaging form talking very small numbers here—between severe risk of any abuse, and Harriet’s research highlighted it as children and their outcomes at age three in that all but the most common form. Is the research that I came one of our severe risk children had been permanently removed by their third birthday. The one child who across familiar and consistent with what you found? had not been removed is now severely neglected, Professor Ward: The child development going to a school that gives that child clean clothes psychologists, the people who work in that area, every day when he arrives, brushes his teeth, gives would say that neglect has a particularly corrosive him breakfast, and there are now concerns about impact, particularly on very small children. It has a whether that child should have been taken into care major impact on the developing brain, for instance, at birth. and also on children’s ability to regulate their emotions. That has a major impact throughout their Q77 Chair: Harriet, can you talk a little more about lives and there are knock-on effects when they start what these risk factors are? school, and so on and so forth. Professor Ward: Yes. Chair: Are there any in particular that are Q75 Bill Esterson: Does the research suggest what counterintuitive? If it is a collection of things that happens to them later in life? anybody would regard as a pretty awful way to treat Professor Ward: The research suggests that neglect a child, and you say you get those all together and get has a major impact on a baby’s ability to control their a high risk, it is not terribly useful to inform practice. emotions, because, if you are not picked up when you If any of them are counterintuitive, or are particularly cry, you become more and more frantic, and that has easy to monitor externally and should be embedded an impact on the way in which your endocrine system into the practice of professionals in a way they are not develops and so on. It makes it much harder for you now, we would love to hear about those. to control your emotions later on in life, and it is those Professor Ward: The ones that were very common in children who then become liable to burst out with our sample, and have also been identified by a number angry outbursts, and that has a relationship with of other studies, are things like parental substance delinquency in teenagers, and so on and so forth. We misuse, parental mental health problems that are not do not know quite enough about exactly what the medically regulated, parental alcohol misuse, correlations are, and we certainly do not know enough domestic violence—those factors in combination with about what sort of interventions might be effective in one another rather than existing singly; also learning trying to turn children around when they have reached disability, not on its own, but in combination with that sort of position. Certainly there is increasing some of those other factors. Protective factors are evidence that neglect is more than something that we things like having a supportive extended family, ought to do something about because the baby is not having a supportive partner, having a protective being fed properly, is hungry, and is not putting on partner who will protect the children if the mother is enough weight: it is much more complicated and not available, and vice versa. The key one is evidence much more damaging than that. of capacity to change.
Q76 Bill Esterson: How reliable are the various risk Q78 Bill Esterson: It is the absence of those factors factors in your research in making decisions about the that is the risk? safety of children, and how reliably can we Professor Ward: Yes. Protective factors mitigate the differentiate which children are at risk and which ones risk, and if they are not evident then the risk are not? becomes greater. Professor Ward: The risk factors that we used in our research are the most reliable known, in that they Q79 Chair: To what extent do we have triggers in come from David Jones and colleagues’ research. place that reflect those, and how could we do so in a They are an exceptionally well regarded team. They way that better protects children? did a meta-analysis of a number of reputable studies Tessa Munt: You said, “And most importantly”? of risk factors for significant harm, and you could Professor Ward: Evidence of the parental capacity to guarantee that they were as methodologically sound change if adverse behaviour patterns have existed in as any research team you are likely to come across. I the past—evidence of a parent’s ability to overcome would have a lot of faith in their work. We took the substance misuse, for instance or to recognise the part risk factors that David identified initially to try to that their previous behaviour played in the removal of classify the families in our research as to those an older child. The NSPCC are trialling our families where children were more or less likely to methodology as a practice tool to see whether the suffer significant harm. results from our study have a wider application as a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 16 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon practice issue. What we may see is, particularly in the unpleasant to produce those findings, but that is what case of severe risk families, if there is sufficient the research does say. evidence to be able to say that a family fits this profile, then the social worker or the courts need to be able to Q83 Tessa Munt: When you are looking at a explain why that family is capable of being able to particular potential care situation, is one of those risk look after a child, rather than vice versa. factors a parent who has, himself or herself, suffered neglect or abuse? Q80 Chair: Turning the onus of proof the other Professor Ward: It is more that when you look at way around? parents who are showing current risk factors, Professor Ward: Exactly. If the likelihood is that this combinations of those factors that I have already family is going to harm this child, therefore what identified, you look back into their previous life evidence is there that this family goes against the histories and you very often find that they have grain of what the research will tell us? experienced abuse in their own childhood. Abuse affects the wider family; so it affects your protective Q81 Craig Whittaker: On that point, we do have an factors. You may find that you do not have a issue in some areas of this country with forced protective grandmother, because she herself has been adoption. How would that change? Because there is a abused, or she has lost contact with you and has not growing underbelly about this not being the right way been able to protect you from abuse, so you are no to go. If you change the onus the other way that may longer speaking to her. It reduces the capacity of the increase forced adoption. extended family to support. Professor Ward: I am very interested in this issue of Professor Biehal: I would like to talk about the forced adoption. I have not come across it in any of distinction between using the idea of risk factors in the research that we have undertaken on babies in the research, and how we make best use of them in care system, on very young children likely to suffer practice. We have to be very cautious. It is significant harm. I am not aware that it has come undoubtedly true, as Harriet says, that there is very across on the Adoption Research Initiative either. strong evidence about the impact of these clusters of There are obviously cases where it happens, or risk factors. Harriet’s study is unusual and really obviously cases were families are treated very important because she was able to look at it prospectively, from when the children were very tiny, unjustly, but on the methodological basis, I am not and then follow them up; most studies have not been aware of any research study that has picked this up. I able to do that. That is really important. We know that am not sure how strong the evidence is on that. an accumulation of risk factors is particularly damaging and increases the risk to the child. Q82 Tessa Munt: In those families where you have All that is true, but when we think about practice we identified the risk factors, do you have evidence that have to also understand that certain clusters of risk shows how many of those parents—particularly the factors can have different outcomes. There is a variety mothers, but both parents—have suffered in the same of outcomes. As Harriet said, for some of the parents way themselves? History repeats itself where, if you in her study the intervention was a wake-up call and have been neglected yourself, your capacity to they were able to change, so you cannot predict understand the need to change may be even more forward and say, “We must do this because…” on the deeply challenged. basis of risk factor analysis alone. The key issue is Professor Ward: There is strong evidence that parents evidence-based, informed professional judgement who had themselves had very adverse parenting within children’s services, within the courts, making a experiences as children repeat the pattern. There is careful appraisal of this. As Harriet said there is strong strong evidence that parents who have been sexually evidence that parental experience of prior abuse or abused particularly have grave difficulties in neglect may affect their parenting, but we cannot say overcoming that. There is some evidence that there from that we can predict forward for any mother with are interventions that support parents and help them a history of neglect or abuse. We must not forget the overcome those issues, but it is very difficult. role of careful, evidence-informed professional There is also some evidence that parents do change. judgment in there. Some of the parents in our study were able to Professor Ward: It is a huge ethical issue. There is a overcome major problems—substance abuse, alcohol danger that some of our work will be converted into abuse, and so on—and provide a nurturing home for actuarial tables and rule of thumb: “If you tick these the baby that we were looking at, although previous four boxes, then you lose your children” sort of thing. children had been placed for adoption. They People do not understand probability theory and they themselves talked about the reasons why they had do not understand that there are intervening factors or changed. Very often they had had a wake-up call; that the profile of an individual case may go against often in substance misuse cases something happened, all the received wisdom. You need to be able to make somebody died, and they realised it was going to be a case for one family being different; even if they have them, that their lives were going to follow that pattern, those risk factors you need to be able to explain why and that shook them into making changes. All is not it is that this family is going to be able to— lost for some parents, but if you are focusing on the child you need to be able to come to terms with the Q84 Chair: An actuarial table that leads to challenge, fact that some home situations are very damaging for where challenge currently does not happen, and then children. It is unfashionable and it is extremely is carried out by a thoughtful professional who cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 17
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon balances it up on a rounded basis would be an judgments. There is a slight danger that training will improvement, wouldn’t it? focus so much on issues such as judgment and Professor Ward: I am not so sure. They make a lot of supervision, and too little on the hard evidence base use of these actuarial systems in Canada and the US, from a whole range of disciplines. and I think they do become a tick-box exercise, which Chair: More knowledge, less skills—you are right in can be used to the detriment of parents. It is a tune with Michael Gove. dangerous route to follow and one would need to be Professor Ward: Yes, I would advocate more really careful about what sort of recommendations knowledge. Social work training has focused on skills would come following that. for too long and is likely to continue to do so. There Dr Brandon: I was doing some work in Sydney is a lot of evidence that the knowledge base needs to looking at their actuarial models for assessing risk. be improved and recognised as something that is They had too many cases brought into the net, to the necessary. extent that they could not then do the work. It is not Dr Brandon: I am doing some work with newly a good predictor, and it is not helpful. I endorse Nina’s qualified social workers; they are coming through at point about professional judgment, because that is the end of their training with a lot of enthusiasm and really important: it gives you a guide, and then you determination. Using that knowledge to form a have to impose professional judgement on it. relationship of trust with families that have these In working with these cases there is a risk of complicated issues is crucially important, but there is over-optimism, because you want to see the best. a bit of a mismatch between what they are coming These people are often very socially excluded, so with and what is expected of their managers, who are some professionals will fail to see the lack of change. still in the culture of performance and targets, do not I have one example of a young mum who desperately challenge them and do not build their knowledge and wanted to come off the drugs while she was pregnant. skills. We need some training for those first-line The drugs agency worked with her and felt very fond managers who have sometimes been left out of all the of her, so even though all of her tests were positive, schemes. It is not just the social workers; it is where they said, “She is trying her best.” She was not able the social workers are when they are embedded in the to change, even though she was trying to. That is the agencies and who they are working with. difficult thing about neglect: some parents cannot Professor Biehal: Coincidentally, I have been looking change, even if they want to. at parent training programmes recently. Virtually no evidence has been collected on the impact of Q85 Bill Esterson: This point about over-optimism parenting training programmes on maltreatment is incredibly important. The time taken between specifically. That is probably because parenting children first being identified as being at risk to an training groups are often very small. If you think intervention resulting in a permanent placement that about the rate of identified child abuse in this country, enables a child to move forward can be months, with about 1.3% with a child protection plan—no, in even years. fact, the child protection plan is about one-third of Dr Brandon: It can happen in the courts as well. We that—they are very small numbers, and it is difficult identified a term called “start again syndrome”, which to identify. can happen in a court where, in order to try and give There is extensive evidence that evidence-based families a fair chance and, if there is a new baby, a parent training programmes such as Triple P and hopeful new beginning, there is a failure to look at Incredible Years are very effective in changing what has happened in the past and see whether things parenting behaviours, parenting styles, and all those have changed. The factors are often the same, but things that increase the risk of abuse or neglect. There people want to start again. Even though there is a big is a huge amount of evidence that they can make a fat file, you start at the beginning because it is easier, difference there, as well as in helping parents manage and it is very risky and very dangerous. their young children’s behaviour better, thereby reducing family stresses. That behaviour is often the Q86 Neil Carmichael: I agree with Professor Ward product of parenting difficulties in the first place, so that there is a danger in analysing risks and they can reach a better equilibrium. What we do not probabilities, but it raises the issue about judgment have is much hard evidence about the impact on and the importance of professionalism and maltreatment, because without enormous studies of evidence-gathering. I have two questions. First, do we these programmes it is difficult to get. think that we are training our social workers in the right way? Do we need to upgrade our training to Q87 Chair: Do you think there are any successful ensure those judgements can be made, and the models of pre-birth risk assessment and is it fair to linkages can be drawn? Secondly, what impact can judge the performance of a putative parent even parent training programmes have? Should we be before a child is born? looking for situations where providing that kind of Professor Ward: I am not aware of any models of pre- training would be welcome? birth assessment, but there is quite a lot of evidence Professor Ward: I do not do social worker training about, for example, parents who are substance any more, although I have done in the past. The misusing throughout the pregnancy. We have parents evidence from our studies suggests that social workers in our study who were injecting heroin throughout the are not learning enough about childhood development. pregnancy. There is a lot of evidence of domestic They do not have some of the factual information at violence increasing during the pregnancy. It is fair to their fingertips that would enable them to make better assess risk of harm during the pregnancy, because that cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 18 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon is a time when people are likely to change. There is aggregate data from different sources, we are not quite a lot of evidence that women stop smoking putting together the individual route of the child from during pregnancy, for instance. It is a time when health and social care, and we could put those bits of people are very emotional, preparing for the birth of information together and learn much more. a child, and trying to do everything to keep that child safe. I do not think it would be unethical to identify Q92 Tessa Munt: Do you sense that more weight is where a child is not being kept safe during the given to a referral from one professional to another pregnancy. than one from a neighbour or a grandparent? Dr Brandon: I think so. There is some small-scale Q88 Chair: Do you agree with the NSPCC who say evidence we have that if the referral comes from a there should be a rigorous pre-birth assessment, member of the family and they are considered not to triggered by risk factors? be a reliable witness—“bad dads”—their referral is Professor Ward: Yes, there should, because it saves not taken seriously when they may have a very clear time and I do not think time is on the side of a lot of sense of what is going on. Community level referrals these children. need to be taken more seriously.
Q89 Chair: Any more thoughts on that? Q93 Tessa Munt: If referrals are made by health, by Professor Biehal: It is not something I know a lot somebody who is a professional—we had a discussion about. earlier about whether it would be a health visitor or doctor—is that taken more seriously? Q90 Chair: They also talk about the time it takes to Dr Brandon: There needs to be a challenge from the assess the parent’s ability to change. If you have got individual who has made the referral; making a a heroin injecting mother you need to assess quickly referral and then doing nothing else is sometimes not whether she is going to be able to get off it or not. satisfactory. If they really believe the child is at risk Professor Ward: Yes. If she has not got off it by the they need to follow up, challenge, and make a fuss. time the baby is born, she is unlikely to get off it after When that happens it can be more successful, but it is the birth. All the parents in our study who did change very draining for the individual professional when did so before the baby was six months old. They may they are constantly being rebuffed, which can stop have changed later for other children, but for the them making a referral in the first place. children in our study the baby was less than six months old; otherwise they did not change. Q94 Tessa Munt: Do professionals—teachers, doctors, health visitors—follow up? Q91 Tessa Munt: I wanted to follow up on one of Dr Brandon: They should and they often do, but the questions I asked in the earlier session: where do sometimes they will not, or they do it once and then referrals to social services mostly come from? it does not happen, or they do not want to make the Professor Ward: I do not think that data is referral in the first place because experience has systematically collected on that issue, as far as I am shown that it does not go anywhere. aware. Professor Ward: They quite often do not get a Dr Brandon: We tend to rely on American literature; response, do not know what happened when they there is not a clear read-across. made the referral, and do not know whether it was Professor Ward: There is evidence from some of our taken up as a case or not. There is a lack of feedback studies about where it comes from, but there is a case for arguing that it should be collected; it is a data item of information to professionals. that would be extremely valuable. We have very few Professor Biehal: It is also important to bear in mind referrals coming from adult services, from adult that with older children, particularly adolescents, mental health or adult substance misuse, the reason referrals might not come in ‘badged’ as child being, we think, that people who work in those protection. With adolescents it is the parents saying, services are often very protective of parents and do “Take him away, his behaviour is appalling, I cannot not identify the child protection issues early enough. stand it anymore.” Our research has shown that I think some local authorities collect the data. A few ongoing or past abuse and neglect was occurring in a years ago we did a study in two authorities that had proportion of those cases—I think it was one third very different patterns. One of them had a very high current, and about half in the past—so for some it was proportion of referrals from neighbours, relatives, and continuing and they had been known to social services friends, and the neighbouring authority did not. We before. Something was being presented as a behaviour had no idea why that was the case, but it would be problem that had underlying histories of abuse and something that would be well worth looking at. neglect—quite often current neglect—emotional Dr Brandon: There might be a way of getting better abuse, and domestic violence as part of the pattern, information from existing sources if we join up what but it had not been recognised and the response of comes from health and what comes from social care. agencies was often gatekeeping: “Keep this at bay; we I am working with epidemiologist Ruth Gilbert at the do not have the resources to deal with this. We will Institute of Child Health, and she has been asking for have a short-term response, patch up how they are this for a long time, because she said with aggregate getting on as a family, give them a few weeks’ data you do not get as good information as if you intervention and close the case,” because of resource follow the route for each individual child and then issues. Local policies are built around local resource learn that way. Although we are collecting a lot of issues. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 19
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon
A study that colleagues have done at York with the children will accept really quite abusive behaviour NSPCC and the Children’s Society found that when patterns without realising that it is unusual or adolescents got involved in the child protection damaging to themselves, so I do not think you can system, they took much longer to get an assessment always rely on children’s views. The research that and to get a proper child protection inquiry. It was Mike Stein did on neglected adolescents identified much longer than for younger children. It was not how adolescents do not always understand that being recognised that they were in abusive and neglectful behaviour is happening, because they neglectful situations and it was very serious. accept it as a norm. In studies we did of children in the care system, in abusive placements, quite often the Q95 Tessa Munt: Is this just about resource? We had children came up with really quite astonishing some evidence from Children England saying that remarks that made it evident that they had not teenage children do not get picked up, particularly understood that they were being treated extremely older boys. badly. I do not think you can only rely on children’s Professor Biehal: My study of adolescents showed views. younger children were prioritised, and we had workers saying, “We just do not have foster placements or Q98 Chair: None the less, how can you make it children’s home places available for adolescents, so easier for them to report and more likely that they will what can we do? We do this instead.” We just do not seek to do so? have that in some authorities. There is a complex interplay between what resources were available, what Professor Ward: Confidentiality is obvious, is it not, policies were built around those, and how that filters but how you get across taking action when it is down to gatekeeping by social work teams. It is a obviously the child who has reported the incident is complicated process. something that I do not think we have cracked.
Q96 Tessa Munt: Children England also said that Q99 Tessa Munt: It would be quite interesting, I children are very often scared to report abuse because would imagine, to look at Childline’s experience, they think they may be separated from their siblings where children understand that is a confidential or they may be sent back to their abuser. The message service, and then to look at the agencies, the schools, about keeping families together has gone very clearly the safe places that children might consider they can out into the smaller community. I wondered whether report, and the contrast between those two. Has there is research supporting that that you are aware of? anyone done any looking? Professor Ward: There is evidence from one of the Dr Brandon: Childline keep very good records of studies in the Safeguarding Children Research what they have done and children often use Childline Initiative that schools are in a good position to identify as a rehearsal—they practise with Childline. It is not abuse, because teachers see a whole range of children just the phone; they can now work online as well. It and they see them every day, so they are most likely is helpful when they feel it is under their control. I to see a major change occurring. A child who is being am doing some research on trying to think about how abused might stand out amongst the other children. children get better access to services. Also, children quite commonly refer themselves to school nurses—they talk to the school nurse. Q100 Tessa Munt: How do we make it easier for children or their friends to report abuse? Q97 Tessa Munt: Are there any school nurses left? Dr Brandon: We need to give them a bit more control Professor Ward: I do not know about the availability of the process. Often they know what is going on, but of school nurses. One of the studies showed that as an people are not telling them, or they assume they do important factor to build on—that school nurses were not know very much. They might not have the agency in quite a good position to act as referral agents. to know what is in their best interests all the time, but Professor Biehal: We have to think particularly how often they will be carrying a lot of responsibility and secondary schools can help. Staff in the adolescent want to gauge how far and how fast they want things support teams were saying, in the study, that often to go. children were being supported quite well in their primary school, with a lot of pastoral care and awareness of the difficulties the children were having, Q101 Tessa Munt: The Government has accepted the and then they hit high school. In that much bigger Munro recommendation to remove the difference environment, teachers could know them far less well between the initial and core assessments and the than their individual class teacher. It was harder for required timescale for assessments. Is that a good those schools to pick things up, and at that point, move? Is there any evidence that removing time around 11, 12, 13, things seemed to get to more of a targets will just create delays or allow delays in the crisis point and they presented to children’s services process? with, “Do something about him, his behaviour is Dr Brandon: There is some evidence that even dreadful,” masking a whole range of underlying though that distinction has gone a lot of agencies are family problems. not in a cultural shift, and do not want to make the Professor Ward: There was a question earlier on change, because they are comfortable working within about whether children would report abuse themselves those timescales. It may not happen anyway, so we and whether you should always take children’s views might not get the delay. It will take time to see, but it into account. There is quite a lot of evidence that ought not to make things worse. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o001_th_1 - Corrected (19-Oct-2011).xml
Ev 20 Education Committee: Evidence
19 October 2011 Professor Harriet Ward, Professor Nina Biehal and Dr Marion Brandon
Q102 Chair: Are they culturally resisting merged must make it very difficult to identify those families assessment and doing two; are they carrying on doing whom you cannot be optimistic about and where it is initial and core? very hard to keep the children with the parents. Dr Brandon: Some areas want to just carry on doing Dr Brandon: We need to distinguish between parents what they did before, but in principle the merged and wider families: children often cannot be with their assessment makes a lot more sense. parents, but they can be with other members of their family, who need support and help to look after Q103 Craig Whittaker: We spoke earlier about children if they are in difficulties. over-optimism about the ability of parents to change. Professor Ward: We do not give enough support to In the context that the presumption is in favour of wider families; we do not give enough support to keeping the child with the parents, has this kinship carers, for instance. presumption placed the rights of the parents over the rights of the child? Q104 Craig Whittaker: On the point you mentioned Professor Ward: There is a lot of evidence that that about the court’s interpretation of the right to family often happens. Both the Children Act and the UN life, do you think that causes professionals to leave Convention state quite rightly that most children are children in abusive situations? best brought up within their own families by their own Professor Ward: Yes, I think so. There are all sorts of parents. The difficulty is identifying those children reasons why children are left in abusive situations. who are not, and the argument that the parent has a That is one reason. All professionals want to keep right to respect for family life is often taken up by the families together. I do not think you would do the job courts. What is not so often argued, and you could if you did not. The tendency to think that it ought to argue equally well, is that a child also has a right to be possible to support the child should be the focus of respect for family life. the work. There is evidence that, if you wait too long and a child There are other factors. There is a great fear of taking has to be removed later on, they have lost their chance children into care; there has been a lot of adverse for a family life, either with their own birth family or, publicity about the care system, even though, in fact, indeed, with a substitute family. I think that could be the evidence suggests that maltreated children do argued. There is also a right not to be exposed to better in care than if they remain at home or return to degrading treatment, which is obviously not to be their families and continue to be maltreated. The care exposed to abuse. I do not think the courts take up the system has been castigated for a lot of inadequacies, rights of the child in the same way that they take up but the research suggests that some of the bad the rights of parents. I am not saying that parents do publicity is not really backed up by the evidence. not have rights, but I think we have the balance out Craig Whittaker: The evidence shows the UK is of kilter in a number of cases. I do not think the quite a world leader in some of the work we do around legislation is wrong; it is the way it is interpreted this, albeit we do not always get it right. sometimes. Chair: Thank you all for giving evidence to us this This thing about optimism is terribly important. You morning. Our inquiry will continue, and it has been cannot do this job unless you are optimistic, and that informed by you today. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 21
Wednesday 2 November 2011
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Neil Carmichael Ian Mearns Pat Glass Tessa Munt Damian Hinds Lisa Nandy Charlotte Leslie Craig Whittaker ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Theresa Lane, Headteacher, Rachel McMillan Nursery School and Children’s Centre, Deptford, Dr Richard Quirk, Named GP Safeguarding Children, NHS West Sussex, NHS East Sussex Downs and Weald, and NHS Hastings and Rother, and Emma Grove, Assistant Head, George Green’s School, Tower Hamlets, gave evidence.
Q105 Chair: Good morning. Thank you very much particular children and families and their cases and all for joining us this morning to give evidence to the the rest of it. If you are not getting feedback then Education Committee on the child protection system. one fears that ordinary schools must find that they get What we do for the most part in our work is conduct even less. inquiries into particular subject areas. I have a white Theresa Lane: I do not know enough about the social board covered in topics and hypotheses that we can services/social care side of it, but because they are investigate. We publish the fact that we are going to working at crisis point nearly all the time, I think what conduct the inquiry; we take written evidence; and we they are doing goes quite fast and we get left behind take oral evidence from people as well. We then write a bit. a report with recommendations. That is the business Dr Quirk: I would second Theresa and say that end of what we do, so we say to experts like communication is a big issue for general practice, but yourselves that we start off as lay people and we end secondly, it is really important for GPs to know what as lay people; what we do, though, is try to act as a to do next for those children who perhaps do not meet platform and a magnet for ideas to improve the system the threshold for child protection with children’s and we make recommendations to Government, which social care. So what do you do with the children who they are then obliged to reply to within two months. will not be accepted by children’s social care because To start, though I know it is a joined-up, holistic they do not meet the threshold? Who is left to look interagency system, if you were Secretary of State for after those children? Who is going to keep an eye on a day and there was one change you could make to them? Guidance on that for GPs would be really the child protection system, one thing you could helpful, to know where to send a child and family impress on us today, what would it be? May I pick on next. you, Theresa? Theresa Lane: Better communication. When we have got to the stage where we are referring a child we Q109 Chair: As far as you are concerned, what is have been through a lot of things already. A referral the position now when the child has not met the is very unusual for us, so we then want to know what threshold? is going to happen, but very often nothing comes back Dr Quirk: GPs get anxious, I think, because they feel to us. There is a bit of a gap there on the stuck. They almost have to take responsibility for that communication side. child and family without the necessary support because there does not seem to be anything Q106 Chair: Right, so it is important to have underneath the children’s social care child protection feedback to the school, in your case, from those to system that then can provide support for that family whom you make referrals so that you know what has locally. So, either you are in child protection or you happened. are not, and if you are not, then you are stuck really. Theresa Lane: Yes. Very often we have to go back and ask what has happened. Q110 Chair: What sort of service would you like to have and where would you like it to be embedded? Q107 Chair: As you said, it is rare, but in your career Dr Quirk: One of the biggest issues that we see in how many referrals are you involved in? general practice is parenting skills. We tend to find Theresa Lane: We probably do five, maybe 10, per that a lot of children who do not meet the threshold year, but bear in mind I am head of a children’s centre for the child protection system often just need extra and nursery school; it is probably slightly different support given to their parents. The parents obviously from other schools. The threshold is very high as well, love their children and want the best for them but so we very rarely reach it or have cases that go further. perhaps do not necessarily have the skills in terms of behaviour management skills, setting boundaries, Q108 Chair: The whole idea of children’s centres is providing sensible health care and diet. Where would that they bring together various agencies for that chat you get that support? The health visiting service is over the coffee to make sure that you do discuss struggling as people are aware. As a GP, where do cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 22 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove you go next? Where do you send that family? impossible, but there should be some input from Children’s centres are an option. children’s social care at a lower level. Theresa Lane: Under-fives: send them to a children’s centre. Q115 Craig Whittaker: Just as a follow-on to that, Dr Quirk: In some areas they are few and far between have any of you ever thought about hiring your own or they do not accept the children because they are social workers in schools? That is something that full and there are various other issues, but often GPs some of the schools in my patch are doing, get stuck with what to do next. particularly with the pupil premium being available. Theresa Lane: We looked into that. We do not get Q111 Tessa Munt: Children’s centre suggests pupil premium because we are a nursery. We do not younger and very often— have a budget to do that, so we would not be able to Theresa Lane: They are under five but we deal with afford it. We looked at doing it as a cluster, but one the whole family if necessary. of the initial problems was that if you hired your own social worker they would not be linked into the main Q112 Tessa Munt: But all I am going to say is, partly social worker system, and that was a bit of an issue to Richard, what happens when something exhibits because protocols would have to be written for that itself at the age of 10, 12, 14? There is a walloping and there aren’t any. gap, isn’t there, because it is not appropriate then to say “Sorry, off you go to your children’s centre”? Q116 Craig Whittaker: We are talking about Dr Quirk: There are limited services available. There children who are not meeting the criteria, though. was Connexions, which could help, and I know in our Emma Grove: We have had experience of that in the local area the local authority have set up an integrated past, but again it was somebody from the local children’s services forum with health organisations, authority who, if families did not meet the threshold, the local authority and third sector organisations. If a was still working to those social care guidelines, and child does not meet social services thresholds, does so our experience was that they were not really doing not meet CAMHS thresholds—which is another big what we wanted them to do and so we did not issue for GPs; they have got very high thresholds continue with that. before they will see children and teenagers—then you can, in our area, refer to this Integrated Children’s Q117 Craig Whittaker: Okay. I just want to move Team and often they will provide some support for the discussion on and ask you how useful the common behaviour management in teenagers. But again, it is a assessment framework is in assessing whether a child patchy service across England. It depends what your is at risk or not. Is it universally understood and used local authority have got in place. I know that GPs as an assessment but are there other, better forms of really struggle with that. assessment? Theresa Lane: The general principles are still sound. Q113 Tessa Munt: Yes, so we have got an age gap When it was first sold to us as an idea, it was as an and a needs gap as well, just under the threshold. opportunity for a family to give their story once and to Emma Grove: Very similarly, what happens to those never have to do it again or give it to several people. I children who do not meet the threshold for children’s do not think that actually works, because one of the social care? We find that some of the referrals we things we have come up against is that we will fill a make do not meet that threshold; to reach that CAF form in—one of the most difficult forms that you threshold families have to be in crisis, and I think that can ever try to fill in, by the way—and when we give that is possibly too late. What we would like is earlier it to another professional they will then get their form intervention. We find a lot is pushed back to schools. and insist that that form is filled in, so that it is not We are expected to do far more and we do not just the one form that goes round. So there is a bit of necessarily have the skill set for that. We are a hitch there. education professionals. In Tower Hamlets, we do work very well together. The agencies do work well; Q118 Craig Whittaker: So it is really a lack of there is a lot of joined-up working, but our concern is understanding throughout the professions—a lack of that where once we would refer to other agencies— linking, partnership working and communication in for example, the Family Intervention Project, which that way. will go in and work with the family—they are greatly Theresa Lane: A little bit, yes. In my experience that reduced now because of funding cuts. I do not think does not help you make the assessment of whether the services we have got are sufficient, but we worry there is a need. You know that there is a need; that that what we have got is at risk as well. Our is why you are filling the form in, if you see what experience is very similar to that of GPs in terms of I mean. those who do not meet the threshold. Emma Grove: For us, the CAF system is very well founded in Tower Hamlets and it is used a lot, though Q114 Chair: So the recommendation you would like certainly at secondary level the amount we are asked to see in our report would say what? to fill in and to complete is very time consuming. If I Emma Grove: I don’t know; a team or someone am being honest, we do not necessarily use it as an within children’s social care who works at that lower assessment tool. We fill one in when we really have level as it were: that early intervention work, working to to make a referral elsewhere. Similarly to Theresa, with schools, with everybody else. We are not we know what the need is and we fill it in to get suggesting they do it all on their own, that would be something else. Our school does not use it quite as it cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 23
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove was intended, I suppose, largely because of time one point of entry into reception, instead of having constraints. children for five terms, we now only have them for three, and it takes you about a term to get to know a Q119 Craig Whittaker: Do you use any other tools child and a family; you are making a relationship with instead, or do you just ignore it? the whole family, not just the child. If there is any sort Emma Grove: We do not ignore it. We have our own of need for that child, you need to get to know them, systems in terms of record keeping; we have reports they need to get to trust you, because obviously they and things like that. We have that information but not have never seen you before, so if you suddenly go necessarily in that format. into referral, in our experience what happens is the Theresa Lane: You cannot ignore it. If you refer into family take the child away and you do not know social care, then that is the form you have to fill in where they have gone. We have a delicate balance but before that we would not necessarily use it. between knowing that we need to do something for Dr Quirk: I think I can fairly safely say that the the child but not wanting the child to disappear. As majority of GPs in England would not know what they are under five, obviously there is no statutory CAF stood for and do not use it. I think it is generally attendance requirement, so that is quite difficult. We accepted by agencies that GPs do not fill them in. play quite a delicate balancing game on that. Probably the biggest reason will be time, and the second biggest reason would be that they would not Q122 Craig Whittaker: Bearing in mind what you necessarily know all the things that need to go in the have just said, how often would you say that a referral boxes. I am not aware that GPs receive a copy of does not happen because of fear of conflict with the CAFs. I know that I don’t in our area. I have not heard family? that GPs by default get a copy of the CAF or an action Theresa Lane: We wouldn’t not make a referral, but plan. So if CAF is the way forward, it may be a good it is just about the way you do it, because you have to plan to try and get GPs involved by at least giving tell them, obviously, that you are making a referral, them a copy of it so they know what they are and the minute you mention what we now call social working from. care, but was called social services, everybody’s barriers go up, as I am sure you realise, and they are Q120 Craig Whittaker: From what you are telling completely terrified. They immediately think their us, communications issues seem to be evolving. Do child is going to be taken away, which is not the case, you think professionals sometimes are a little bit wary but you do have to have some very long of dealing with these cases of abuse and neglect? Do conversations, and some very careful conversations, you think the system is too cumbersome and as a before you can do it. It is not something you can just result people do not quite turn a blind eye to it, but do and say “Right, this is what we are going to do”. are perhaps scared of going through that process? It is very delicate sometimes, but I would not say we Emma Grove: I don’t think so, certainly from my miss any. school’s experience. We have very good internal systems and I am confident that, if a member of staff Q123 Lisa Nandy: Richard, do you think that the had a concern, it would be passed on to me as the lead Government’s proposed health reforms will make any for safeguarding. It is obviously then my difference to the role of GPs in child protection? responsibility to pass that on. I am confident that is Dr Quirk: Yes. There is significant change in the NHS not an issue, no. that everyone is aware of at the moment and Theresa Lane: The same here. I would agree with potentially there is the danger that safeguarding is that. We have got very good systems for staff to pass going to get lost at the bottom of the pile in terms of on information. all the changes. I think we need to look at it as an opportunity really; that is the only way forward in Q121 Chair: Okay. Health normally seems the weak terms of child protection and safeguarding with the partner in all of this, so Richard, what are your new CCGs—the GP commissioning boards. We need thoughts on that reluctance to open up that particular to get in there early as they are starting to be created line of action? now, so that they realise that safeguarding is one of Dr Quirk: For referring children to social care? I do their responsibilities and they are going to be held not think there is a problem for general practice. I accountable for it. Speaking to local CCGs, there think GPs, if they spot something that they are seems to be a lack of understanding of where worried about, are quite happy to pick up the phone safeguarding is going to fit into the new structures. A and call a social worker or send a referral letter in. lot of CCGs feel, “Oh, it is going to be a much wider That does not seem to be the issue. There are other remit, which should be the responsibility of the issues, which I am sure we will come onto, regarding National Commissioning Board”. GP engagement with children’s safeguarding. But I have not picked up that there is any problem or Q124 Chair: Would you like tell those who do not reluctance to actually refer children who they are know what a CCG is? concerned about. Dr Quirk: Clinical Commissioning Group. It used to Theresa Lane: I suppose the only reluctance we be GP Commissioning— might have—and it is not about dealing with a very Damian Hinds: Consortia. serious obvious abuse case—is that it is quite a Dr Quirk: —Consortia. That’s it. It has changed its delicate balance when working with the family, name. Sorry, I should not use abbreviations. My especially now. As a nursery school, because of the personal view is that CCGs need to take responsibility cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 24 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove for their local safeguarding and be accountable for it. Emma Grove: Certainly, no, we would not want Where all the designated professionals and named resources to go away from the teams as they are. They professionals—so the designated nurse, designated are already very stretched and working to capacity. As doctors and named doctors—fit into that is still very I said earlier, within children’s social care there needs unclear. We are not really getting clear guidance from to be a team that can intervene earlier and work with the Department of Health of where those people will all the different agencies. That, for us, is what is sit. Local CCGs are on a small level; each small CCG missing. is not going to have a designated doctor, designated nurse and named professionals, so how will that fit Q127 Lisa Nandy: At the moment, if you were to with the fact that they are responsible for their local try to get some advice from a social worker about a safeguarding? It is still very unclear, but I think we particular child, is that quite difficult to do? should use it as an opportunity. If we get in there now Emma Grove: No, in Tower Hamlets it is actually and really get safeguarding embedded in the work of very easy, I have to say, but I know from speaking to the CCGs, so every contract that they are other people that that very much depends on where commissioning has children’s safeguarding firmly you are working. We have a number to ring; it is embedded in it, then hopefully children will not slip answered very quickly and we can seek advice very through the net because the CCGs know that they are easily. Unfortunately, we do not necessarily feel as a responsible for the safeguarding on that contract. They school that we are in a position to put into practice will know that they will be monitoring it and they are the advice we often get. We do not necessarily have accountable for it at the end of the day. As long as we the skills or the expertise, or we will be told to refer get in there early, rather than setting up the CCGs and to CAMHS or somewhere else. CAMHS are very then thinking “Oh, where is safeguarding going to fit good but they are also stretched. There might be a now?”, we should be all right. three-month waiting list, for example, but we need immediate support. There are things that work well, Q125 Neil Carmichael: Following on from that but I really think the missing link for us is social care answer, how would that affect the plans to integrate at an earlier level. health and social care, and what advantages or disadvantages do you see will unfold from that? Q128 Lisa Nandy: I noticed you both nodding when Dr Quirk: Again, that keeps changing. Originally, Emma was speaking. when it was all first thought about, they were going Dr Quirk: I wonder whether, initially, there will be a to move all of health safeguarding into public health, need for additional resources, to be honest, because and then public health was moving over to the local there seems to be a gap between the crisis point and authority, which they have done now, but safeguarding the general population of children. But I wonder is still within health at the moment. So, it is all very whether long term, if we are putting resources into uncertain about where that fits together and initially early intervention, then actually less children will my thoughts were, “Great”: if we were working with reach crisis point, therefore the resources spent at the local authority and safeguarding was all one team crisis point will actually go down long term. that would be fantastic for communication, fantastic Theresa Lane: That is always the theory isn’t it? But for not missing children slipping between health and then the early intervention grant has not been ring- social care. There is a lot of argument against putting fenced; the Sure Start grant has not been ring-fenced; the two together because we are a bit frightened that so that does not help us because our money is not health safeguarding, which is a lot smaller than local secure. That is one of the things that is needed. We authority safeguarding, might get lost and health will too have a very good system. We have people not have so much of an impact or a say in children’s employed by Greenwich; one is an ex-policeman, who safeguarding. The arguments against putting them is in charge of child protection, and one is an ex-social together are that health needs to be supported and worker. We can just phone them and talk to them recognised as a separate entity to boost its input into about what we need and they will give us ways children’s safeguarding. forward as well. But you can always phone the duty line as well and they will talk you through it. Q126 Lisa Nandy: I wanted to just return briefly to this question of early help that you all talked about at Q129 Lisa Nandy: I notice that all of you are the beginning and said was a priority. At the moment practising in London at the moment. Do you have any in all political debates there is a really key question knowledge of, outside of London, whether the about resources. Presumably none of you were situation is different or not? arguing that resources should be taken from the crisis Dr Quirk: I work in Sussex. intervention for children who meet that threshold and given to early help. The question that I have, if the Q130 Lisa Nandy: Oh, you do. I just wonder for the answer to that is no, is whether you think that Committee whether it might be worth us talking to additional resource is required. If you do think some practitioners further afield to see whether the additional resources are required, are there also things situation is different. that we could do to improve the situation for Chair: Let us keep our questions today to the professionals such as yourselves dealing with children witnesses we have. who do not meet the threshold without extra Lisa Nandy: But, Chair, it sounds very much as if it resources? depends on the local area that you are in. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 25
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove
Emma Grove: If you have a child protection concern training. So there is nothing that means we, as Named about a child who does not live within the local GPs, can go out and say “You must have done this”. authority where your school is, you have to report that There is the intercollegiate document of all the Royal to their local area. I have had to report to a number of Colleges, which recommends that GPs undertake different areas including Essex; the experience of child protection training at least at level two, most trying to report a child protection concern to Essex aiming towards level three, but there is nothing that was entirely different. I had to go all around the says that GPs have to do that. You could potentially houses even to get the right department and it was a have a GP who has not done child protection training completely different system. It was a real eye-opener since they did their GP training. It is our job as Named for me. It made me appreciate much more where I GPs to encourage them and to provide opportunities work, to be honest. So it is very different depending for them to do it. There is online training, but Named on where you are working. GPs often put on evening courses or get paediatricians Lisa Nandy: That is helpful. to give lectures and things like that. It would be great Dr Quirk: You are right in what you say. It is different if there was a requirement for GPs to do it because it across England, to be honest. The Named GPs for would make our job a lot easier. Safeguarding have a Primary Care Child Safeguarding Forum. We network via email, so hear stories from Q134 Ian Mearns: Have any of you got any different areas; some areas struggle with social significant concerns about the Government scrapping services advice and how to contact them. My ContactPoint? experience is that it is very good in our area. Emma Grove: No. Ian Mearns: No? Q131 Ian Mearns: I have heard concerns expressed Chair: If there is nothing you immediately want to about what GPs actually provide. You are a child say, do not feel obliged to talk about it. protection expert for three PCT areas, so in that area Dr Quirk: I will just say briefly that I cover East how many GPs are there? Would you be confident Sussex and they have their own local ContactPoint, that all of those GPs will have enough expertise in which they have introduced off their own back and paediatrics, for instance, to be confident that the which is a really helpful resource. It is a database of children are getting the best deal? A couple of weeks all the children in East Sussex that key professionals ago, 200 doctors wrote to The Times saying the all have access to and can track back through their reforms to the NHS were ignoring children. GPs are history to see which professionals had been involved. expressing that concern but other professionals, I think, have also got concerns about individual GPs’ Q135 Damian Hinds: You said they have all children expertise relating to their own patient groups. that professionals have contact with, so therefore it is Dr Quirk: I think you are right; there is some concern not the same as the ContactPoint database. about GPs and their level of paediatric knowledge; Dr Quirk: All children are on the database. the concern has been well documented in the press, particularly the concern about children’s safeguarding. Q136 Damian Hinds: Every single child in the The problem that we, as Named GPs, have—because county. obviously we go around encouraging GPs to train in Dr Quirk: Yes. All the children in East Sussex are on children’s safeguarding and increase their that database. knowledge—is that although the RCGP curriculum contains a small section about children’s safeguarding Q137 Pat Glass: Can I just take you back to the gap when you are training to be a GP— that you talked about, the threshold, where there are real concerns about certain children who do not meet Q132 Chair: This would be the Royal College of that threshold? We know that for the vast majority of General Practitioners? children, referrals are made for neglect or failure to Dr Quirk: Sorry, yes, the Royal College of General thrive. There was a local authority some years ago, Practitioners. It writes the curriculum for GP training, where the director of children’s services—I think it and when you are training you have to undertake a was Luton and it was relating to relationship issues— certain amount of training on children’s safeguarding. decided to take out of the budget all of the funding Once you become a GP, there is no set requirement for the crisis care, safeguarding and the rest of the that you should undertake child protection training for child protection budget, and delegated it to clusters of the rest of your career, nothing in your yearly schools and said “You know these families, you know appraisal that says you must have done child these children, you get on with it. You decide whether protection training, nothing—as far as I can see—in to employ social workers.” That was done to fill the the revalidation that is being introduced soon that says gap that you are talking about. Do you think that you must have done child protection training. We something like that would help? do not know what the CQC will inspect when they Theresa Lane: We do have something similar in start inspecting general practice, whether they will Greenwich. We have family intervention workers; I have a box which says— can never remember the title properly, but I think that is what they are called. We, as a cluster, employed our Q133 Ian Mearns: That would be the Care Quality first intervention worker and he was a social worker; Commission. because it was a pilot we were allowed to do that. Dr Quirk: Care Quality Commission, sorry—they Schools in the cluster referred cases to him that we will have a requirement that GPs have undertaken knew would not reach the threshold and he would go cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 26 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove and work with them at home and get them through but then the circumstances changed when we came whatever particular crisis was happening at that time back in September and we made a further referral. In so that they did not get to the threshold, and that fact, I think we have made two further referrals, but worked really well. He has now left and the service it still has not been picked up. As I say, it is the first has changed slightly and become more centralised. half-term; we still do not know our children very well The people who are now in it are not social-work at the moment, so there might well be more, but I trained; their training is at a much lower level than think we probably do about one and a half a term, his, and it is not working as well. We do have that sort which is not masses. of service but we have one for a cluster. Our cluster is Dr Quirk: I have referred four children in the last the smallest in the borough; we have six settings, but year. Again, that is going to be area dependent. Some some of the clusters have got 10 settings and there is GPs in some areas will be referring a lot more than just one person responsible for that. They just cannot that, and some will not have made a referral in the cope with the number of cases. last five or six years. It is straightforward: you can either do it by telephone or by letter. West Sussex Q138 Pat Glass: So not always a good idea? I was have become good now at replying and saying what going to suggest it might be a recommendation that they have done with that referral. So things have we suggest the Department look to pilot. progressed and improved. Theresa Lane: It is a good idea but there has to be enough money put into it to have the people who are Q142 Charlotte Leslie: Again, I am aware this is capable of doing the job and enough people to actually going to be very subject to regional difference, but cover the number of cases there will be. how do you find the uptake of the referrals and to Emma Grove: I would agree. We have it on a small what extent do you think the ability of children’s scale in Tower Hamlets. Unfortunately the service was services to take up those referrals is limited by reduced again this year because of funding cuts, but capacity and external factors? having trained social workers who can go in as Theresa Lane: Hugely limited I would say. It is very intervention workers and work with that family in the rare that they will take up a referral that we send. If home and link up with school and other agencies we make a referral, that is because we have put loads would go a long way in plugging that gap, yes. and loads of things in place already; we have used up all the resources that we have; we have gone to all the Q139 Chair: That is pretty much in line with what contacts that we already have and then decided, Munro recommended in her review as well. “Right, this has to go”. So we have already done a lot Emma Grove: Yes. of work and it is very rare that it meets the threshold.
Q140 Charlotte Leslie: I am interested in the stages Q143 Charlotte Leslie: Is that to do with a threshold of the referral process. How often would you make a thing, or do you think organisations are reluctant to referral to children’s services and what is the process interpret the data and the information that you have as like? You said there is great regional difference, but the threshold because of their limited capacity? just give an overview of what experience you have on Theresa Lane: I think it is about the threshold. I do the panel. not know very much about social worker training, but Emma Grove: Our internal system at school is for I do think there is an issue that they do not seem to things to be referred to me if there is a concern about have any child development training, and they a child. Since we came back in September we have certainly have no awareness of attachment, which is had 25 referrals to me. Some of those will be children huge, especially when you are talking about the very who teachers think may have self-harmed or put small children that we have got. If they go and do an themselves at risk in some way. They are not initial assessment, they go in and they say, “Well, the necessarily the big four: neglect, physical abuse. In family have told me that it is not happening, so that terms of referrals we have then made on to children’s is fine”. social care, we have made six. The way in which that Emma Grove: I would certainly back that up. There works is we have a local duty line. It is called is an issue with the thresholds. A child has to be at Integrated Pathway Support team, IPST. We ring and immediate risk of danger for it to be picked up and, say we would like to make a record of concern. We as Theresa said, for families where you know there give the child’s details, explain what has happened. are real concerns, you end up making multiple Nine times out of 10 that person will then go and referrals before anything is picked up. The one that speak to their duty manager and call us back and say, was picked up for us recently was a boy who was “This is what we recommend happens”. Out of those homeless; we had to make three referrals over a period six referrals, I think there is only one that was then of 10 days and I knew he was on the streets. It just picked up by social care and they followed through becomes intensely frustrating, having the evidence, to with us. For the others, we were given advice on what get to that point. However, I think there is also a we should do next. capacity issue. We feel that a lot is pushed back to us, and I think partly it is thresholds, but I work with Q141 Charlotte Leslie: Can I ask the other members some fantastic social workers and they are working to of the panel the same question? full capacity. Theresa Lane: I have made one this term and that has been an ongoing case. We made a referral in July for Q144 Charlotte Leslie: I just want to tease the same child; it was not picked up by social care, something out before we move on. There is the one cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 27
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove issue of the threshold being, in a sense, too high, that do with emotional abuse. It is very hard for us as a things have to be crisis point before anything happens, school to build a case, the evidence, for that. You but also—and correct me if I am wrong—what I know it is there, but it is very difficult to get action. gather from what you are saying is that threshold criteria are sometimes over-simplistic. It actually Q149 Tessa Munt: I just wanted to look at the whole might be at crisis point, but the criteria to demonstrate child protection system being underpinned by its that crisis point are over-simplistic: you have to walk statutory and its non-statutory practice guidance. You in and there is an obvious case of crisis going on. have got 392 pages, I think, in Working Together to Emma Grove: Yes. Safeguard Children, then you have got the Local Dr Quirk: It would be nice to know what the Safeguarding Children Boards, which have their own thresholds were, to be honest, so that when the referral policies and their own bits of guidance, and the has been rejected—I use that term loosely—it would responsibility for training people. I just wondered how be nice to know why the criteria were not met. Then that works in practice and whether Working Together we would probably play around so that we tried to to Safeguard Children is a document that is in the meet the criteria to get the child in; though that is remotest bit familiar to you. Do you know every probably not how it should be done, really. single page? Do you ever read it? Sorry, I do not want Theresa Lane: You have to be very clever with the to put you on the spot in quite such a direct way, but language you use on the form actually to get them is it useful or is it just something that somebody’s to notice. written? Theresa Lane: I go to the training and I am assuming Q145 Charlotte Leslie: I hate to use the cliché “tick that what they are giving me on the training is what I boxing”, but is it? need to know. Theresa Lane: It can be. Q150 Tessa Munt: Is the training you do useful? Q146 Charlotte Leslie: Is that something that you Theresa Lane: Yes. think we should improve dramatically? Theresa Lane: It is so frustrating from our side Q151 Tessa Munt: And your ongoing training, your because we know the families really well, and so we CPD—I am sorry, continuing professional can see what is going on. But they only perhaps do development, continuing the trend of not using one visit and, if the family say to them “It is not initials—is useful. happening”, they believe them, because they do not Theresa Lane: Yes. have any other mechanism to find out any more Dr Quirk: I would say I use Working Together as a information, whereas we have gathered huge amounts reference book. I probably would not know it cover of information. That is a bit of a mismatch. to cover but I know where to access information when I need it, or how to reference some text that I need. Q147 Tessa Munt: So what is the issue with passing Emma Grove: I am familiar with it. I do not use it on that on? a very regular basis. I tend to use the local Theresa Lane: Well, we do pass it on, but it does not documentation, so for example the London Child seem to be used or fit what they are looking for. Protection Procedures is actually easier to use. It is a Emma Grove: If an assessment is then carried out, much bigger document, I think it is 500-and- they will look for their own evidence when they go to something pages, but, when you have got it online, if the family home. People can come across fantastically you look at your contents, your index, you can click well in a one-off, half an hour visit. I think this is, for on the area you want and it takes you straight there, us as professionals, where the frustration comes in, whereas with Working Together you have to plough because we can see it. We do not necessarily have the through and find what you want. So, just in terms of evidence that social care need and when they then go ease, I use the London one. out for a one-visit initial assessment and do some other background checks, if that information does not Q152 Tessa Munt: Okay, fine. Thank you. Richard, come up, they say there is no case to answer. We then I know you have got quite a lot to say about training, have to keep plugging away and keep making those because I think we actually almost have our referrals, knowing that, hopefully, something will recommendations, haven’t we, from you, in particular. eventually happen. That is good. I thought they were excellently made points, but, just looking at training in child protection Q148 Charlotte Leslie: So if we were to try and law and procedures, how much do you receive on an squeeze a recommendation out of the problem you annual basis? have identified would it be something along the lines Emma Grove: As designated teachers in schools we that—I hate to use the word “soft evidence”—perhaps are trained every two years. I do not know that the lots of little bits of indicative evidence need to be training has necessarily kept up with policy and better connected with the alarm bells evidence or the practice. It still focuses very much on identifying trigger evidence that the threshold criteria use? signs of abuse, so physical, etc, and I think we are Theresa Lane: Yes, they are looking for bruises, very well clued up on that. It tends to be other things really hard evidence like that, and it is not like that a that you do not necessarily come across quite so lot of the time. often—forced marriage or witchcraft—that can Emma Grove: You mentioned the attachment issues. concern child protection, but which you do not get One of the hardest things to provide evidence for is to any training on, where you are very reliant on looking cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 28 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove at these documents like Working Together or the back to you to say what they have done with the London Child Protection, that kind of thing. referral. Emma Grove: We do get a print-out if we have made Q153 Tessa Munt: So that is what you have used the a record of concern, and it states what we have book for, to check on the stuff that you do not come informed children’s social care of and then their across every day. Is that right? recommendations at the end, but we do not get that Emma Grove: Yes. For example, we had a referral to every time. It is inconsistent. us: there was a boy with behavioural difficulties. Father had said that he was possessed and he was Q159 Pat Glass: So we need to recommend it going to take him for an exorcism or something like happens every time. that, and so immediately you think, “Well, I have not Emma Grove: Yes. come across that before”. We would refer to the local Pat Glass: Once you have made a referral, and the procedures to see what it said, read that and then social services people have looked at it and have probably take advice from the duty line. So we do use agreed they will carry out a case conference, are the them as reference tools, yes. people around that table the right people? Is there anyone who is missing who should be there? Q154 Tessa Munt: So the training you receive is not Dr Quirk: How did I know that was going to come actually appropriate, because you have some to me? experience, but it may be if you are a new teacher. Chair: Whenever I hear the word “missing” I think Emma Grove: Yes. of health. Dr Quirk: Yes, I think there is a very negative opinion Q155 Tessa Munt: So the training is not developing of GPs engaging in child protection. It is really with your knowledge. important to say at the outset that, by and large, most Emma Grove: No, it is exactly the same. I would do GPs, if not all, are passionate about families and exactly the same thing every two years. family medicine: that is why they went into it. They Tessa Munt: Oh God. How dismal. care passionately about the child’s health and Emma Grove: It is a day’s training, and it is the same wellbeing. There is an issue with a very negative thing each time. perception of GPs engaging in safeguarding, largely because they do not tend to attend child protection Q156 Tessa Munt: That is pointless, is it not? That conferences. The attendance rate is very low. The is a complete waste of time. report sending to child protection conferences is very Theresa Lane: There are different levels of training low, and when you are trying to get information out for general staff, but even for them it is the same every of a GP’s surgery it can often be a challenge to say time you go and do an update. But then we do get the least: getting through the receptionist, the hassles offered other things, so we can go and do training on in terms of consent, the hassles in terms of getting the domestic violence, private fostering or something like GP’s information sent back to social care or any other that. You will get offered different things like Emma agency. So I completely understand why there is a was saying. wide perception that GPs are not interested in safeguarding. What I would say in defence of GPs is Q157 Pat Glass: Poor communication is often at the that they are an interesting agency on their own, bottom of most things. I was trying to work my way because they are structured very differently. They are through the procedure. So if you make a referral, you independent contractors to the NHS who are paid to might hear nothing back. complete pieces of work. So, in effect, they are paid Theresa Lane: No. to see 15 patients in a surgery in the morning, 15 Pat Glass: You get nothing back that says “This is patients in the afternoon, home visits at lunchtime, why we decided not to proceed.” and the paperwork associated with that is supposed to Theresa Lane: Sometimes we do, but sometimes we be in between surgeries. So when GPs get notification don’t. Sometimes we have to chase it. that a child protection conference is taking place, often with a week’s or 15 days’ notice, if they go to Q158 Pat Glass: And is that something that we could it they will have to cover that surgery with a locum at recommend is put into the system: for every referral £70 to £80 per hour. The funding for that locum that is made, you get something back formally that comes out of the GP’s pocket. There is no other source says “We have not proceeded with this and these are of funding for it. the reasons why”. You could say that GPs have a moral and ethical Theresa Lane: I think it is actually in the procedures, obligation to attend conferences and write reports, but I just do not think it happens. which is what I initially felt when I first got involved Dr Quirk: When you question the local authority as in child protection. I thought “Why are these GPs not to why they are not responding, they say obviously going?” But when you look a bit deeper, if a GP they are under pressure and they are focusing their attended all the child protection conferences, they resources on doing the assessments and things like would be paying for the locum, effectively out of their that, so they do not have the administration support to pocket, in crude terms, or staying late because they respond. In my area that has improved recently, and are not allowed to do it in NHS time. It can take an West Sussex are now responding to every referral, but hour to write a report; when do they do that if they in a lot of areas they are just so under-resourced that are supposed to be on home visits or doing the post they do not have the administration support to write from the last surgery? Do we always rely on the good cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
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2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove will of GPs to do that? Is that sustainable? Is it to get involved; some GPs will go in on their day realistic to expect that in all cases, if you think of the off just to attend a conference. Where they have, the number of child protection conferences there are? feedback from the social workers and the other agencies—education—has been really positive, so I Q160 Damian Hinds: How many would there be for really think that GPs are an important part of the average family GP in a year? conferences and writing reports, it is just getting the Dr Quirk: Again, it depends which area you are in. system set up to allow them to be able to contribute.
Q161 Damian Hinds: Just give us an order of Q169 Pat Glass: Is it always about more money? magnitude: 1, 10, 100 or 1,000? Does the GP need to be there on every occasion, or Dr Quirk: We have got 23,000 patients in our would a phone call with the social worker suffice? Is it practice. We probably have two or three a child about changing the contract so that it is more flexible? protection requests for information a week. Dr Quirk: Yes.
Q162 Damian Hinds: How many GPs do you have Q170 Pat Glass: It is not just about putting more in your practice though? money in so that they can attend every case Dr Quirk: Probably 11 whole-time equivalents. So we conference, because that would not be necessary. probably get, I would say, three or four a week, in Dr Quirk: No, it is not all about money. There is an terms of wanting information. image that it is all about greed for the GPs, which is a shame because it is not the case at all. I have tried Q163 Damian Hinds: That is requests for to explain it in terms of paying for the locum; it is not information, but how many of these are things where that the GPs want money to attend the conference so you would actually have to bring in a locum, spend their earnings increase, it is about trying to protect all this money and all the rest of it? them from having to lose their earnings through Dr Quirk: All of them will require additional funding, spending it on locum and administration support for because to write a report, you have to go through all doing the reports, if you see what I mean. There are the family’s notes. other ways for GPs to contribute. Some areas are trialling holding the conference at the surgery so the Q164 Damian Hinds: So that sounds like one every GP can pop in, pop out, when it is their turn. Some four weeks in rough terms, per GP. I have just done people are thinking of using the internet so that they some very rough maths in my head. can do it by video conference. We are pushing, in our Dr Quirk: Yes. area, just for the GP to write a report. We are not expecting them to attend. We are saying “Okay, you Q165 Chair: In terms of child protection there are won’t be able to leave your surgery at short notice, about 12 referrals a month, if I understand what we but at least supply a report”, for which the PCT are are talking about. How many child protection paying a contribution towards their administration conferences a year, do you think, there are in your time and time that they are spending doing that. Some area, between the 11? PCTs will not fund that; a lot of PCTs will not fund Dr Quirk: Conferences per year: It is hard to say that. But we are lucky in our area that our PCT has because there are initials and reviews, so you are agreed to fund report writing for GPs. So there are doubling up per year. You have two conferences per lots of ways round it. child, per year. To be honest, I do not know the numbers off the top of my head. Q171 Chair: Again, looking for a recommendation without a huge open cheque book, for these PCTs or— Q166 Tessa Munt: But you might be able to write to well, you are going to be doing it yourself soon— us and let us know what your experience is. Dr Quirk: CCGs, yes. Damian Hinds: Yes, at least give an indication. Dr Quirk: Yes. Q172 Chair: CCGs will be funding it soon. We are going to come to health change again perhaps, but Q167 Tessa Munt: You said something earlier about will the change in arrangements make this more likely four referrals: was that you as a three-PCT person or to be flexible? was that your surgery? Dr Quirk: If we get in earlier with the CCGs, then Dr Quirk: Oh no, just me as a GP. definitely, yes.
Q168 Tessa Munt: Four referrals yourself Q173 Pat Glass: You mentioned about cultural individually. differences between GPs, social workers and so on. Is Dr Quirk: Yes, in the last year. So just finishing off it mainly about the attendance at child protection case that bit, I am not defending GPs because there is this conferences, or are there other cultural differences? thought that GPs are not engaging in child protection, And how do we bridge those? but it is more complex than that. If the structures are Dr Quirk: I think there are cultural differences in place to allow GPs to drop a surgery at short notice between the way social care works and general and there is funding to pay for that cover, then GPs practice works and each one’s lack of understanding would be attending, where relevant obviously. I know about how the other works causes conflicts; both sides of GPs who go in on their day off to attend child criticise the other, and you get stuck in the middle as protection conferences, so it is not all GPs who refuse a Named GP. From a social care point of view, GPs cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
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2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove lack understanding about assessing risks and but because they would not be able to take many thresholds, so when they send a referral off because more on. they think it is barn door child protection, they do Theresa Lane: I would agree. not understand how that risk is assessed by the social worker, and how the social worker has come to a Q176 Damian Hinds: Can we just helicopter right conclusion about why that does not meet the up to overall issues? Munro says that the balance threshold. Therefore GPs think, “Well, I send these between restriction and professional judgment needs referrals in and social workers are not interested, do redressing. We have heard so much this morning not respond and almost do not care”; I am about processes, policies and procedures and paraphrasing these sorts of comments. There is that acronyms, some of which I think would probably lack of understanding. I have had the privilege to sit alarm a lot of people out there, who would say “Why alongside some social workers on their telephone are we talking about the CCGs with relation to helpdesk as part of my Named GP role, and it is children? Surely this is just about the doctor. The absolutely amazing what they do: the sheer volume of doctor has to take responsibility.” They would calls and letters that they are getting and the probably be alarmed as well to hear that a lot of complexity of the cases that they are dealing with. doctors, I think you were saying, have not really had That gives a better understanding of why not all any recent training in this sort of thing. So having a children meet the threshold. So, if GPs understood CCG structure perhaps does not really help very much that, it would be slightly easier. if that happens to be your doctor. What is your view On the opposite side of that, social workers often get about the balance between systems and processes and upset with GPs because they call the surgery, get stuck individual professional discretion? Does that make at the receptionist; the receptionist will not put them sense? through, they do not get a call back, then they get a Theresa Lane: Sort of. message saying “Send it via fax”. The way that GPs work, everything has to be in writing so we can Q177 Damian Hinds: Let me clarify further then. document everything in the patient’s notes; sometimes Have we gone too far in systematising and designing social workers find that frustrating, because they want flow charts? We have a very pretty one in our notes to speak to the GP on the phone and get information here, in terms of who calls who—they have got to immediately. We have all the issues to do with consent for releasing medical information to other agencies, wait a maximum of seven working weeks to do this, which is a minefield, and GPs are very conscious of a maximum of three working weeks to do that—and that. It can come across as our being obstructive to then they will refer back and there will be forms and the social worker, because we are hesitating, we want somebody might express criteria for the threshold and consent, we want the parents’ permission and all this then they might tell you why you have missed it or sort of thing in relevant cases. So the lack of you have not missed it. At the end of the day you understanding about how the other works can cause have got professionals like you, who know children, some conflicts. Perhaps if, during our training, we who know parents, who know what they are looking spent an afternoon in each area—a social worker came for and know when things are wrong, and for some and sat in on a surgery for half a day in their training reason it sounds like that is not quite working out. Is and GPs sat in with a social worker for half a day as that because we rely too much on all these systems part of their training—we could understand each other and not enough on saying, “If someone is sufficiently a bit more and work together better. qualified and sufficiently experienced, they know it when they see it. Let’s rely on their judgment”? Q174 Pat Glass: So it is not about legislation or Dr Quirk: I think you have made a really good point more guidance. It is about joint training. there, and a lot of GPs would agree with you. When Dr Quirk: Joint training, yes. a GP has been concerned enough to refer to social services, if the referral has been bounced, very often Q175 Damian Hinds: I just wanted to clarify they have said to me, “In my professional opinion I something you have already covered. We were talking think this child is at risk, yet social services do not”. about referrals that were rejected. Just to be clear, is And because of, as you say, perhaps “tick boxes”—it that, in your experience, mostly because there is some does not meet the threshold criteria or whatever—the sort of volume constraint, where child services are just referral has got bounced, but actually at the end of the setting the barrier a bit higher to reduce the amount day the professional judgment of the GP has got lost of workload, or that there is something wrong with in that, because they are making the statement that the way that they are considering what you have told they really feel this child is at risk of harm, which is them? being ignored. It is not good to sit on the fence, but Emma Grove: I think the thresholds are set very high. you probably need a bit of both. You need a bit of I do not think it is just “We do not want to deal with prescription for GPs in terms of the CCGs. If we could that”. I think the thresholds are high, but you do get say CCGs must ensure that all GPs are basically the feeling that it is also a capacity issue and that trained in child protection once every three years and social care are working up to there and cannot accept all surgeries follow the child protection procedures, any more. That is a feeling; it may not necessarily be that is the prescription out of the way. Then leave the true, but that is certainly how it feels to somebody professionals to work with their training, learn from trying to make the referrals. You feel it is being their training and take it forward in their own pushed back to you, not just because of the thresholds professional way. So, it is a bit of both. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
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2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove
Q178 Damian Hinds: Theresa and Emma, do feel Emma Grove: It comes back to joint working and that your individual professional discretion is understanding each other’s services better. Once you sufficiently trusted and relied on? have been doing this job for a while, you work with Theresa Lane: Not always. social care a lot, and you understand the pressures, Emma Grove: Not always. I think, again, it is quite where they are coming from and everything else. I do difficult: I understand why the systems are there. We possibly think now, when I ring up people who know both work in areas where there is a high level of need, who I am, they possibly take me more seriously than and we would probably agree with one another that somebody ringing from another school who they have when we feel that there is a real risk, there really is. never spoken to before. They are still working within If I compared that with colleagues elsewhere, where the same systems and constraints, but when I first took there was a lesser need, what they may think is “at on this role I rang them up about things I would risk” we would just deal with ourselves on a daily possibly not ring about now: you learn as you are basis. There do have to be the systems, because going along. Coming back to the training, people otherwise social care would be inundated. I do not doing this role are in very different places. Some joint know how you bring that in, but some kind of agency work in among that training would be helpful. flexibility in terms of trusting our judgment as professionals would certainly be useful. Q183 Pat Glass: Can I just ask very quickly? Looking at this graph it appears that the key part is Q179 Damian Hinds: How can you address that that, once a referral is made, the practitioner discusses balance? Would it be, for example, having some sort with their manager or senior colleagues what action of accreditation whereby if you are a super- they take. The same criticisms were made in areas like professional—all three of you would probably make SEN: referrals are made and they are turned back. The that cut, and maybe some of your other colleagues way some credibility was put into that system was by would, but others might have to wait until later in ensuring the people who are making the referrals were their career—and you are sufficiently trusted, then you part of the decision. You then had other head teachers make the judgment and there is nothing more; you do who had trust in the system, because they knew there not need a safety net. If a less experienced colleague was somebody like them as part of that made such a judgment, then maybe one of you three, decision-making process. Would that help? or an equivalent, would have to review the case. Dr Quirk: Absolutely, yes. Theresa Lane: They all come through us anyway. I Emma Grove: Yes. am the person who does that, so that would not Theresa Lane: Yes. happen. Chair: Three yeses for the record. Emma Grove: What happens now is we may make a Q180 Damian Hinds: I mean in a completely referral. Whoever you speak to always goes and different children’s centre; do you see what I mean? speaks to their manager and comes back to you. On There would be some people with more experience occasion, we have demanded to speak to their and more expertise than others. manager, because you feel you are not part of the Theresa Lane: Every setting has to have a designated process at all, and that what you said is not being person who would always be the same. given adequate thought.
Q181 Damian Hinds: Yes, but you are doing Q184 Pat Glass: Even if it was not you—say it was systems and processes. I am sure they will have a you, Richard, and I know you have not got the time designated person, but that does not necessarily make to do this, but somebody like you, if there was a case them brilliant. referral and you, or one of your colleagues, were part Theresa Lane: They are the ones who filter through of that discussion, that would give some credibility to the referrals. All my staff make referrals to me, but I the system. am the one who filters through which ones then go Dr Quirk: Absolutely. It could be the person referring; further, and every school will have that system in I cannot see a problem with that. If the person who place. I can see what you are getting at, and to a has written the letter then gets a phone call back from certain extent that is part of my frustration: if I have the social worker saying, initially, “I have read your made the referral that is because I really think they letter, and it does not meet the criteria, but let us have need to do something. I can understand the other side a chat about this”, the GP or whoever gives their point of it in that there are only so many social workers and of view, then there is discussion between the two, and they can only take on so many cases, otherwise we a joint decision is made at the end of it. That does not would flood them. seem complex to me.
Q182 Damian Hinds: You are brilliant: I am sure all Q185 Pat Glass: So it is a decision made here rather three of you are fantastic, but not everybody is as than there? equally fantastic as everybody else. How would you Dr Quirk: Exactly. Then you would understand why improve the exercise of individual professional the decision has been made as well. judgment and discretion, while also having some safety mechanism to ensure we did not get rogue Q186 Tessa Munt: How does the system work for elements, or just not-very-good elements, making those children who might slip under the wire? You judgments that might mean children being taken away talked about your mini-ContactPoint database: how from their parents? does the system work for those children who are home cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
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2 November 2011 Theresa Lane, Dr Richard Quirk and Emma Grove educated, or in the independent sector whose parents Dr Quirk: It does: those children are on there, because can buy changes of school, where if somebody at an the data, I believe, are taken from their original health independent school picks up a problem, the child is record when they are born. withdrawn and put into another school? Theresa Lane: I don’t know. I don’t know what Q189 Tessa Munt: The onus, then, is on the GP and would happen. not the services you offer. Dr Quirk: They are often not seen by the universal Q187 Tessa Munt: So it is down to the GP. services other than GP. Dr Quirk: My only experience of independent schools Tessa Munt: Okay, fine. Thank you. is that they are not provided with an NHS school nurse, which causes quite a problem because the Q190 Chair: May I thank all three of you for giving universal services are not aware of these children and evidence to us this morning? Thank you very much what is happening to them. indeed, it has been very useful.
Q188 Tessa Munt: I was just going to say: your ContactPoint-ish I presume does not have those children.
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Sue Minto, Head of ChildLine, John Cameron, Head of NSPCC Adult Helpline and Joe Ferns, Director of Research, Development and Operations, The Samaritans, gave evidence.
Q191 Chair: Good morning, thank you very much something like 29,000 calls from individual adults for joining us today. I am glad to see you were able about concern for the welfare of a child. Last year to hear the evidence given by the previous set of there were 16,000 child protection referrals to local witnesses. Can I ask you, to start with, what authorities across the UK. This year we estimate it is measurable impact do your services have on the lives going to be over 24,000 child protection referrals to of children and what evidence do you have to back local authorities across the UK: a significant increase. that up? I will start with you, Joe—you are in the middle. Q193 Chair: That is 50% in one year. Joe Ferns: What evidence do we have for the impact John Cameron: Yes, a huge increase. In 40% of those of our services? referrals going to local authorities, the local authority was not aware that that child was in an unsafe Q192 Chair: First of all, what impact do you think situation. That demonstrates the importance of our your services have? That might be easier. helpline in terms of connecting concerns from Joe Ferns: The Samaritans is primarily an adult members of the public to those agencies, so those service. The primary function of what we do is to agencies can then take action. provide people with a safe space to talk about things Sue Minto: ChildLine exists in order to make sure that perhaps they do not feel able to talk about with that every single child and young person in the UK anybody else. In doing that we perhaps help people has someone to turn to when they do not feel that they bring some order to thoughts and feelings that might have anybody locally. ChildLine has become part of be very chaotic. We try to help people name feelings the fabric of children’s lives. If you want some and things that are happening to them in a space where statistics, we receive on average around 29,000 naming those things is possible because they are out contacts from children every week. The figures of their normal context: they are not worried about the astound even me. That is from both online and shame and the stigma that would come with having telephone contacts. those conversations elsewhere. We have a very high threshold of confidentiality and In doing that, we hope that people will find a way of we believe that that is one of the reasons that so many making decisions for themselves about how they wish children contact us: they know that they can do that to proceed and goals they want to set. Sometimes with some confidence that it will remain private unless what you are doing is helping people rehearse a way they want us to refer on. Our referrals to local of talking that they then use with others. They find authorities, police and ambulance services are very that talking about the issue that they have called to low in comparison to the numbers. In 2010–11, we talk about is something that did not cause the world made just under 1,400 referrals. In the first six months to explode around them, that it made them feel better, of this year, we have made just under 900 referrals. it unlocked something, and in doing that hopefully We do have a significant number that we make, but it they go on to have that conversation with others. is not significant in terms of the numbers of children That is what we are aiming to do. Can I point to the that we talk to. nice randomised control trial study to prove that that works? No. Q194 Chair: Just give those numbers again because John Cameron: The NSPCC helpline offers advice I’m a bit slow with it. and assistance, and also takes child protection Sue Minto: In 2010–11, it was just under 1,400 referrals across the UK. Last year alone, we received referrals. In the first six months of this financial year, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
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2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns it is just below 900, so the number has gone up, but information from children about race is quite difficult that is not surprising, because our response rate, in for us. There is a possibility that we do not hit all of terms of our ability to answer contacts from children, the population in that respect. Those are areas that we has gone up as well. continue to strive to improve.
Q195 Chair: It may not reflect an underlying issue. Q200 Lisa Nandy: Do you do anything in particular Sue Minto: No, it is likely not to. for children who are not confident with English? Sue Minto: We do, as far as possible, and we try to Q196 Lisa Nandy: How do you make sure that profile our volunteers and counsellors to see if we children know about your service and know how to have got people who can speak different languages. contact you? We have a safeguarding issue, because all of our Sue Minto: We have promotion and marketing counsellors need to be monitored and supervised by machinery through the NSPCC. We have a schools our staff supervisors, and if they cannot speak the service in its second year, which aims to go around language as well then you do not really know what is every single primary school introducing children to going on. It is another area that is a continual the idea of the things that may be uncomfortable to challenge. them, and where they may be able to go with any worries they have. Q201 Lisa Nandy: You have an online facility, is that right? Q197 Lisa Nandy: Do you go to private schools as Sue Minto: We have an online facility, yes. well? Sue Minto: They do not go into private schools yet. Q202 Tessa Munt: Can I just ask: are your posters It is not my service, so I am not sure what the plan is produced in Portuguese, Italian and Polish? about private schools. I listened to your question Sue Minto: No, they are predominantly in English. earlier on: it is a real gap about children who we struggle to reach. My answer about normal schools is Q203 Pat Glass: The Samaritans have given us a going to echo that, because we put our posters out very detailed breakdown of the main reasons for every single term to schools, and we are relying on contact, but, John and Sue, could you tell us the main them promoting ChildLine to children and young reasons for contacting your services? people; some schools do that much better than others. John Cameron: First, neglect is a very dominant They will go to private schools, but, again, it is concern from members of the public and from parents. whether they get displayed. As you can imagine, it is very visible, and particularly There are lots of other things. We use the internet to for very young children; neglect of young children is a huge degree now: we do a lot of advertising and a serious concern for members of the public that they promoting the service on Facebook. We get a huge want to report. Then comes physical abuse, and you number of responses from that, because so many can appreciate it would be more of a visible option to children are on the internet now. be able to understand. Sexual abuse and emotional abuse, understandably, are the least likely to be Q198 Lisa Nandy: Do you particularly try and target reported, sexual abuse because of the nature of the children who are not in school? secrecy of that, and the difficulties for the public to Sue Minto: We try and target the most vulnerable, but understand what is happening there. In terms of we use a very wide funnel of targeting in order to emotional abuse, defining that and getting people to reach all children, and not publicise the service in any take action is extremely difficult, particularly because way that would make a child feel that it was not for a lot of emotional abuse is encapsulated in physical them. We know that the most vulnerable, and children abuse and neglect. Those are the very high areas of who are at the most risk, are the ones who will feel concern. that they are not deemed worthy of a service. We are We are getting an increase in contact from parents very careful about how we market in order to ensure who are separated; there are issues relating to contact that we are not suggesting for any child that ChildLine and residency, and allegations in terms of the quality is not for them. of care. That is a lower end but growing concern, particularly as it can result in further ill treatment— Q199 Lisa Nandy: Are there any groups of children particularly emotional—of children, in terms of that you have particular concerns are not contacting separation, residency, and contact disputes. Those are you? the general concerns we are getting. Sue Minto: It is quite difficult to know, because of not being able to have all the profile information. We Q204 Pat Glass: Sue, I presume it is mainly the know that we need to be more accessible to children children themselves who contact you. What are the with disabilities; having the online service has main reasons for contact? certainly helped with that, and we work with other Sue Minto: The majority of children who contact us agencies in order to think about how we can increase do so about their own issues; a percentage contact us that access. We also know that it is going to be more about concern for other children, but that is a much difficult to reach children who are particularly mobile, lower percentage. The most common reason for maybe Traveller children, who do not have access to contacting us is family relationships and bullying, the same resources. While certain information we do followed pretty closely by physical abuse, sexual collect—age and gender—is pretty easy, collecting abuse. Now we have an online service, children can cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 34 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns have a one-to-one real-time chat with us online, or have spoken to nobody. If nobody comes at number they can send email through a secure email service. four, quite a lot of children have spoken to nobody On the online services we had suicide, depression, and before contacting ChildLine. We know that there is a self-harm in the top five, which is not the case on large group of those children who do not feel able to the telephone. We get a lot of suicide, self-harm and talk to others. That can be for a range of reasons: fear depression calls on the telephone, but they are of what is going to happen; loss of control; feeling probably ranked around 8, 9 and10, rather than in the embarrassed or ashamed; or not knowing what is top five. That has been quite interesting to us. happening to them. As you go down the list, health professionals, boyfriends, and dads come in. That Q205 Pat Glass: When people contact you, is it gives the mix. normally the first point of contact or are they mainly people who are also dealing with the statutory services Q207 Damian Hinds: I wanted to follow up very as well? briefly. John, to come back to what you were saying John Cameron: About 70% of people who contact about people being advised by public authorities to our helpline have not had contact with other agencies. contact your organisations, the NSPCC, I know you When we ask them about that, they have concerns said you are trying to understand more about why that about how those agencies will manage their worries. is. I guess you have your suspicions. I wonder what They see the NSPCC as a source of reporting and you think is going on there, and, regarding the times seeking advice. For people who want advice around of it, is this a recent development and what might have management of their own behaviour towards their triggered the change? children, or where they do not want to provide us with John Cameron: We researched callers to our service identifying details but want to take action themselves in 2010–11: 21% of people were advised by agencies to protect a child that they know, the preference would or others to contact us. It is about the confusion over be to come to us rather than go to social services. where you seek advice, if you wanted to obtain that Their concerns about children’s services are that the advice from local authorities. Previous witnesses said advice is not there and they would have to report, so that there is some uncertainty about how you report. they would be pushed down a particular route. They are coming in to contact with a range of There are a lot of people who are coming to us who individuals at a local level who are probably giving have not had any previous contact. There are also a them inappropriate advice. If they went through to the growing number of adults who are coming to us who appropriate child protection team in that local have been told by children’s services to report their authority, I struggle to believe that they would be concerns to the NSPCC. We are a little bit worried turned away. There are a range of professionals in a about that; you can appreciate that we are trying to local authority who the public are coming into contact understand what is happening there. When you ask with, and without that specific knowledge, they are people how long they have held on to those concerns probably saying, “Well, you could call the NSPCC; I it is very worrying indeed, because we find that on cannot take your details”, whatever that might be. average they have had a serious concern for over a month about a child before they make a decision. It is Q208 Damian Hinds: Are you happy that it is more not unusual for people to hang on to those concerns likely to be that rather than, “They will not take me”, for nine months to a year before they report them to individual person, “as seriously as if you contact the us. NSPCC and they help you”? John Cameron: There is very strong evidence to Q206 Pat Glass: Joe, would the people who contact suggest that, when the NSPCC refers child protection you normally be involved with other agencies or come referrals to agency, there is a greater likelihood of to you first? action being taken than when a member of the public Joe Ferns: As far as we can measure it, it is a contacts the local authorities. I can go into more detail mixture. We undertook a survey a few years ago, if you would like. which showed that one in five of the people that we were talking to had not spoken to anyone else about Q209 Tessa Munt: That was going to be my next the sorts of issues they were calling us about. A lot of question: you say that, out of the 16,000 last year, you the people who call our services are people who have referred 40% to local authorities. Have I got that got very complicated lives and very complex right? problems, so things will overlap. In some cases people John Cameron: No, 40% were not known by the will have been in touch with some sort of agency local authority. about one of the problems they are calling us about. We do not have very accurate or reliable figures on Q210 Tessa Munt: There were not known, so 60% that, because we do not ask a lot of questions for our were known to local authorities. Out of your 100% of purposes when we are talking to people; it causes us referrals, how many of those children or young people problems when we have to answer that sort of become the subject of some action? question. John Cameron: Last year we got feedback from local Sue Minto: Not all children who contact us tell us authorities. We continually get feedback from local whether they have spoken to anybody else before, but authorities. The indications are that no further action those who do tell us have predominantly spoken to was taken in 12% of all our child protection referrals. mum; following that it will be a teacher; following that it will be a friend; and following that they will Q211 Tessa Munt: Only 12%? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
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2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns
John Cameron: Indeed. 27% of that 12% did not move slightly to the side? I would like to know about meet the local authority’s criteria. the number of contacts you have had from people who are perpetrators of abuse, and what you do with Q212 Tessa Munt: So it’s only 3%. those calls? John Cameron: What we are saying is only 3% of John Cameron: From my end, about 30% of all the our referrals did not meet the criteria for them to take advice calls that come through to us are from parents further action. who have concerns about an adult with whom they have a very close relationship. It is often mothers with Q213 Tessa Munt: So where are your thresholds? violent partners wanting to seek advice. That is the John Cameron: We are in tune with local authority undervalued nature of these types of services; we thresholds. Of those where no further action was often focus a lot on identifying children at risk, but taken, there were a number where we received there are a lot of people out there who, inaccurate information. Sometimes we are subject to understandably, fear identification will lead to the loss callers misusing our service, being malicious, as you of their children or prosecution against themselves, can understand—put those to one side. Of those where but are seeking advice. Particularly reaching out to no further action was taken, there were very few men and getting men to talk about their offending where further assessment was not undertaken by the behaviour is a big struggle for us, I have to say; it is local authority once you remove those malicious calls very difficult. and where we received inaccurate information. Joe Ferns: I can’t put a figure on it. I know that anecdotally the number of adult survivors of abuse we Q214 Tessa Munt: Is that because local authorities speak to is higher than the number of perpetrators of are scared that, if the NPSCC has made a referral, and abuse. We have tried to take advice from various something awful happens— agencies about how you know when something is real. John Cameron: There are two issues around that in We take some calls from people who are expressing terms of decision making by local authorities: one, fantasies, but it is very difficult to draw a line between it has come from another agency—that agency has what is real and what is not when you are dealing with somehow interrogated the initial caller in some way— someone in an anonymous way. Our approach with so the value of information coming is probably people who talk about abuse is that the volunteer will perceived as being higher than from a member of the ask that person why they are telling us this; are they public who has contacted the local authority direct; expecting us to do something about it? We will often two, historically, we know, in terms of interagency ask them if they are talking about it because they want work, that there are cost benefits in ensuring that to stop doing it; do they then know where they can go agencies work well together, so there is a preference to get help to stop doing what they are doing? We do to respond more favourably when agencies refer to not have any procedures in place to report people. local authorities than when members of the public do so. There is a vested interest in having a positive Q217 Tessa Munt: But you have places to which you relationship. However, there are countrywide can refer? variations in terms of the quality of that response; that Joe Ferns: We have ways of signposting to other is an overall UK response, but we have serious organisations— concerns about how some local authorities respond to our referrals. Q218 Tessa Munt: Who can perhaps help somebody who is a perpetrator? Q215 Chair: We often have people saying things like that to us, and we struggle to get them to name names; Joe Ferns: The Lucy Faithfull Foundation run an everyone thinks it is more important to be diplomatic organisation called Stop it Now! I am sure many and keep them behind closed doors. people with be familiar with it. They work with John Cameron: Indeed. You will understand our people who are active perpetrators of abuse. We have diplomacy as well, I feel sure. We need to develop had them at our conferences; we have had training those relationships as well, but we have had occasions from them for some of our volunteers; and some of where a local authority has said, “We will not receive our branches will be in positions to refer to those your referral. You must ask that member of the public organisations. to contact us”. That defeats the whole object of our service. We obviously push on that, and insist that Q219 Tessa Munt: I know there is an age thing. they take further action. We have tracking Sue Minto: There is: we do get some calls from mechanisms to ensure that those particular high risk adults, and we try to get them off the line very quickly. cases are actioned. If we get a call from an adult, or a child or young Chair: If there are instances where you have made no person, who is telling us that they abuse, that would progress trying to sort it out with them directly, we hit our threshold for breaching confidentiality, so we would love to hear from you and know who they do not maintain confidentiality. Of the referrals that were. we made last year, 2% were in relation to someone being an abuser. Q216 Tessa Munt: Can I just move onto something else now? You have spoken about friends, parents, and Q220 Tessa Munt: Can I go back to the referral thing other people to whom people have spoken, and you you were talking about earlier? When you were have talked about rehearsal of conversations. Can I talking about the very low threshold of callers that cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 36 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns you refer on, the agencies you refer to are police, we are going to be active listening, helping them to ambulance. talk through stuff, and how much we might do a bit Sue Minto: The agencies and the ages are interesting. more probing and helping them to think about options. I am quite interested to talk to you about the age range We are always encouraging children and young people of the children who contact ChildLine. In terms of the to find someone in their local network that they can agencies, in 2010–11, 57% were to the police, 26% talk to. A lot of our model looks at ensuring that we were to children’s services, and 17% to other do not increase children’s dependency on us; we want agencies, which will include ambulance. Of our to increase their resilience and we want them to think referrals, the majority, 41%, are suicide contacts or about where else they can go and who they can talk to. runaways, which is why we would go to the police in John talked about rehearsing. We will do rehearsals. A the first instance—we need emergency services. An child might says, “I cannot talk to mum. I want to, issue for me with child protection is about access to but…” We will say, “When has mum got time? When resources: things that feel relevant and accessible to is she busy? When would be a good time? Pretend I older children, 16 to 18-year-olds. We have seen an am mum, let’s talk about it, how might you broach increase in the number of 16 to 18-year-olds who the subject?” contact ChildLine. Prior to 2010–11, it was around We do conference calls: we advocate and mediate on 23%. It has always been around 50% in the 12 to 15- children’s behalf. Of our referrals, a high percentage, year-olds, and the other 48% was evenly divided 55%, are with children’s consent and 45% are without either side of that. We have found that last year and their consent. When we are talking with children and this year 16 to 18-year-olds have gone up to 31%, young people, they will sometimes allow us to make which is a very high percentage. that contact, or they ask us to make that contact. We When we do research with children and young people try to make sure that, at the end of the contact, we they will still tell us that they will not contact have left that child with a step forward, whatever that ChildLine; 16 to 18-year-olds will say, “No, I would might be, and for some that might be a mini step— not. I do not see it as relevant.” They keep it private they said something for the first time—and for another and secret, because it is embarrassing, not because we it might be a concrete action that they are going to go are not relevant. When you talk about marketing and off and talk to someone. publicity, we do our research, and sometimes we have to decide what might be behind the findings of the Q223 Craig Whittaker: John, when adults call you research. The evidence that 16 to 18-year-olds are guys about child abuse, what would you advise them contacting us makes it obvious that we are relevant to do? and accessible to them. John Cameron: We encourage them to provide us In terms of our referrals: of the ones when we knew with details, so we can advocate on their behalf to the age, 40% were in the 16 to 18-year-old age group. ensure that appropriate services reach out to those A lot of 16 to 18-year-old boys contact us about children and protect them. For the other half of our specific issues—facts of life, puberty, sexuality—in contacts where they just want advice, we talk through real confusion, with nowhere to go and no real the various parenting strategies, how to make resources, because once you hit 16 you are supposed themselves and the children safe in terms of domestic to know everything. violence issues. We address some of the fantasies they have about the actions that local authorities can and Q221 Craig Whittaker: Sue, I wonder if I could ask cannot take: a lot of parents perceive local authorities you and Joe—I know that the Samaritans primarily as having a punitive, but not a supportive, response. have calls from adults, but you do have calls from We like to encourage callers to understand that children as well—what support you physically offer agencies can support families; that is what they are children who contact you. Do you advise children to there for. They are not there to break families up, but report abuse? If so, to whom? to protect children and support them. Joe Ferns: We could be advising children who are in We address some of those issues, rehearse with them that sort of situation, or a very high risk situation, to how they would engage with those local agencies and contact ChildLine. We are currently working together provide them with real information about the agencies quite closely to ensure that we are explaining on the ground. We are a source of solid information ChildLine in the right way, that our people are familiar about a range of statutory agencies and voluntary with how ChildLine works, and trust ChildLine so that bodies that can provide support to those families. they want to direct that child to phone ChildLine. Q224 Craig Whittaker: Joe, a survey of callers to Q222 Craig Whittaker: A child calls you with a Samaritans found that many felt volunteers should be problem; obviously you are going to refer them on able to give advice, because obviously it is a listening potentially, but what about the child there and then? service. Do you agree? If so, what kind of advice How do you physically support that child? should volunteers give in cases of suspected child Sue Minto: We have a model of intervention that abuse? enables us to respond in a range of ways. Obviously Joe Ferns: There is a very long-running debate in we are listening and trying to get a sense of why that Samaritans, almost as old as Samaritans itself, about child called us, and sometimes you have to get behind what is advice. The reason Samaritans talks about not the initial presentation. We are doing a needs giving advice is because there is a danger that, when assessment and a risk assessment at the same time, you do that, you are taking control away from the and then we are making decisions about how much person who has chosen to contact you. The thing cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 37
2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns about Samaritans that is quite unique as a service is instead of recognising that there a huge number of that it allows people to remain in control, and to not children and young people who will not speak out. feel like they are engaging a system that will take The other thing that makes me feel so passionate control away from them. about it is that we also know that protective action is There are obvious risks in that. What Samaritans not always in the best interests of children: they can volunteers will do is encourage people to think about go into care, continue to be abused, and be highly what the options might be for them, and will generate vulnerable. We have quite a risk averse child options with them. In the same way that we have protection system and to enable ChildLine to exist conversations such as, “I cannot possibly tell my GP provides something of a balance to that, and ensures this”, or, “I cannot possibly tell my teacher this, that children and young people do have somewhere because…”, the volunteer will go through with that they can turn, they can feel comfortable and confident person, “What if that did not happen: what if about that, and they can talk though actions, ideas, something else happened? Are there other ways to get and options, with some pace and control, and they can what you want? Are there other things you could be come back to us and move things on for themselves. doing?” It is absolutely right for ChildLine: if we lower the There are ways of generating options with people. threshold then ChildLine ceases to be what we Callers sometimes go away from our services feeling developed it for. like they have had advice, to which the organisation John Cameron: We inform callers about the manner itself responds with something of horror, because we in which we manage information—that we would are not supposed to be giving advice; we are supposed report it. They are in control of that; they can remain to be helping you. We are learning internally to be anonymous; they can talk about a particular issue and careful about what we say about advice. My personal not give us details. The nature of that engagement is opinion is that Samaritans offers a service that is very it remains confidential, because they are not providing valuable, and we would not want to be in a position us with anything. Interestingly, when we asked callers where we would be giving advice generally speaking, about whether or not we knew their telephone number but we have recognised that children are a different when they called us and had some sense of who they group. Children under the age of 16 represent less were, most of the callers thought that we had some than 2% of our calls, however, we do take a lot of super-duper tracking system that was able to identify calls—3.8 million a year of dialogue contact. A small them. While they valued the fact that they could number of those 2% will be people who are in very remain anonymous, paradoxically they felt that they high risk situations. were not anonymous by the nature of the contact. We have recognised that, as an organisation, we are That also suggests that sometimes agencies have to not the best placed to deal with those callers when take control, and there are a lot of people out there organisations like ChildLine and NSPCC exist. We do who are victims who are being told, “What do you not want to do that thing that sometimes charities want to do?”, particularly adults, and sometimes they do—start doing everything for everybody—and want the responsibility of that decision making taken recognise that we are better off helping people get into away from them. Sometimes that can be beneficial these other services. We are working towards a model as well. where we can warm transfer people into other Joe Ferns: It is a really interesting and difficult services. That means that our person will stay with the question. I was part of an advisory group led by Lord child and bring a third party into that telephone John Alderdice as part of the Royal College of contact, and then we will gradually step out. We do Psychiatry review on risk. There were some not have the technology yet to be able to do that. interesting moments in that process where a whole Currently it is about encouraging somebody: selling variety of different professionals sat in front of the them the idea of contacting ChildLine. panel and said, “As an increasingly risk averse society there are times when we remove some of the humanity Q225 Charlotte Leslie: I am interested in from what we are trying to do.” I remember confidentiality, and the moral and practical issues that conversations with psychiatrists, off the record, who raises: do you feel you have got the balance right in said, “Having a risk-averse system prevents me from confidentiality currently? Sue, you said you do report being therapeutic.” That is quite fundamental. abuse, I know the Samaritans do not. Where do you As a group of service providers we exist in a whole feel that balance lies, and do you think we have got landscape of things that are open to people: what is it right? important is that we ensure that individuals understand Sue Minto: I think we have got it right for ChildLine. the differences between the services that are available, I am passionate about the fact that we have a high and understand, within those services, that the people threshold, and if we change the threshold then we who operate those services understand the differences change the very nature of what we are trying to between those services as well. If we remove safe achieve through ChildLine. I recognise that is quite spaces where people can rehearse things, if we remove difficult: a lower threshold of significant harm can places where people go to speak the unspeakable, then help people sleep more comfortably in their beds, but there is a very real danger that some of those it does not necessarily protect children all the time. If conversations will simply never happen. You will we do not have a service like ChildLine, which is the create a scenario where people do not feel able to UK’s helpline for children, then there is a tremendous open up. gap and we are not offering anything for children and It may be a small number of cases, and a small young people; we are staying in a comfort zone number of people, but from our perspective cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Ev 38 Education Committee: Evidence
2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns
Samaritans defends its stance on confidentiality, those issues is brilliant, but we have to make sure we because we feel not to be confidential would be less can answer the calls. safe in some ways. I know sometimes that seems like Sue Minto: I would certainly echo what both Joe and a very strange and counterintuitive thing to say, but, John have said. John’s point about a single point of in many ways, not providing the opportunity to speak contact is what we are both trying to achieve for is a breach of trust. adults, for children. There a couple of things that Charlotte Leslie: In the landscape that exists, you do come with that. You were talking to your witnesses not feel that any changes are needed to the particular before us about challenging when you want to make areas you cover. referrals; that is quite difficult to do if you do not have a bit of experience behind you, and maybe the backing Q226 Chair: As you heard in the introduction to the of an organisation or whatever. If you have that single first panel, we write reports and make point of contact, or a service like ChildLine, we feel recommendations. Recommendations: ladies and we are experts in our field, and we are comfortable to gentlemen, what needs to change in your view? If challenge. That is a key issue. there is one thing that you would like to see improved There is a key issue about us being 24/7. I am not as a result of your insight from your work, what is it? sure why child protection services— John Cameron: What is essential is that the UK has Tessa Munt: Stops at six. a single point of contact for anybody who has Sue Minto: Exactly. We have difficulties with concerns for the welfare of children. If they want to referrals out of hours, with emergency duty teams, report, you need a central mechanism to report much more than we do during hours. It makes no children at risk. We hear all the time about the sense that we employ people between nine and five or difficulties that people have to negotiate, particularly nine and six; it does not help children at all. The final outside office hours, to report concerns for children to thing—I know you asked for one and I threw three in—is that 16 to 18-year-old, that gap. There is a huge appropriate agencies. It does not make any sense to challenge about working with them differently: we me that we do not have quite simply an equivalent of cannot shoehorn them into our existing child a 999 that enables people to say, “I have a concern for protection system, because they are young adults, and a child; I want to report that”. That service then they have different levels of capacity and resilience. ensures that information is distributed to the It does not work to hold child protection conferences appropriate agency on the ground. and consider taking them into local authority care. Joe Ferns: The Harmonised European Short Code numbers are an intriguing possibility. They are free Q228 Chair: Of course, 16-year-olds get dumped out to call a number. Samaritans’ run one that is about of local authority care. Their corporate parenting emotional support generally and crisis; NSPCC and seems to come to an abrupt halt. ChildLine run one that is about children; and then Sue Minto: There is a massive gap. They are young there is one for missing people. Those short code adults, but they are also older children. numbers are deemed to be numbers of high social value: they are about saving lives and protecting Q229 Charlotte Leslie: Just a quick question: you people. The agencies running them have had great are all third-sector organisations providing the most difficulty finding out how to work with Ofcom and extraordinary and comprehensive service that telecoms providers to make those numbers sustainable everyone in the country knows about, which is a to us at the volume that we are likely to be dealing remarkable achievement, Big Society stuff. Do you with should those numbers become actively think that you have certain fundamental advantages, advertised, which we currently do not do because we flexibilities, abilities, through being third-sector cannot afford to. organisations, or do you think a service like yours There is something in there about access to services. could ever be delivered through a state mechanism? There is something about ensuring that organisations John Cameron: If the state had the resources you work more closely together, and are more joined up: could deliver a single point of contact for adults and that is something we are trying to do, and it is not as professionals who have concerns for the welfare of straightforward as it sounds with thousands of children: quite simply that. There are advantages for volunteers and hundreds of different centres, phone the state to invest in organisations like the NSPCC, lines, telecoms, and the rest of it. For me, the for the simple reason of the perception that the public Harmonised European Short Code numbers—the 116 and professionals have of the NSPCC. Why does platforms—are an intriguing possibility. Government not utilise that? It would be a shame that you did not utilise it. There are very clear partnership Q227 Chair: In line with what John said? benefits that organisations like us and Government Joe Ferns: They are there for different purposes, but have in terms of making some simple changes, and they share a common problem: the barrier to them small investments, to make it happen: it can happen. being implemented is to do with connection charges, It is a doable task. how those numbers are carried by different telecoms providers, whether or not people are willing to Q230 Charlotte Leslie: Do you want to put a sacrifice the revenue that would be generated from supplement in, Joe and Sue? Do you also think that calling those numbers, and whether the organisations the state would attract and be able to employ the same who sit behind those numbers have the means to be kind of personnel, volunteers, people with the same able to answer the volume of calls. A 999 system for kind of passion that you do? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o002_th_2 -Corrected (2-Nov-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 39
2 November 2011 Sue Minto, John Cameron and Joe Ferns
Joe Ferns: The whole point about what Samaritans value. My passing comment would be about does is that it is about putting people in front of encouraging very strong partnerships; working people, either literally or virtually, with as few together in itself gains confidence from the public and systems in between as possible. Samaritans’ professionals that those who are responsible for volunteers are militantly anti-bureaucratic. The people governing and practising child protection have the who come to our services are people who feel very best interests of those audiences at heart. much outside of mainstream society, and they feel very much outside of the establishment. Samaritans Q231 Chair: As we do seek to make only functions because we are slightly rebellious and recommendations, John, on your point about the slightly outside of the establishment. In short: no. single point of contact, we would be grateful if you Sue Minto: It is hugely challenging, and I am not were able to write to us with any further thoughts on necessarily sure that it is desirable. As Joe said, the that matter that we could consider. challenge is good, and we do not all want to shop at John Cameron: I would be delighted to. Tesco, we want that competitiveness. The influencing, the campaigning, the way in which we can challenge Q232 Chair: Sue, you made the recommendation in is hugely beneficial: we would lose that. There are relation to 16 to 18: you do not have to have the other challenges around thresholds, working with complete answer, but if you have any further thoughts volunteers—those kinds of things. Ultimately the idea and would like to write to us and let us know, we of having something that is completely recognised, would be grateful for that. Likewise, Joe. Please stay valued, and is outside the establishment, is probably a in contact with us; if you have any further thoughts good thing. following today, anything you wish you had said or John Cameron: If you are going to have an effective questions that we should have asked, please let us child protection system, public and professionals must know. Thank you very much indeed for coming see organisations working together. If they see it as along today. isolated silos then you are never going to get joined up thinking, and you are never going to get added cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 40 Education Committee: Evidence
Wednesday 30 November 2011
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Neil Carmichael Tessa Munt Pat Glass Lisa Nandy Damian Hinds Craig Whittaker ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Joanna Sharpen, Children and Young People’s Co-ordinator, Against Violence and Abuse (AVA), Prospera Tedam, Chair, Africans Unite Against Child Abuse (AFRUCA), Kathy Rowe, Chair, Karma Nirvana, and Colin Walker, Deputy Director, End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and Trafficking Children for Sexual Purposes (ECPAT UK), gave evidence.
Q233 Chair: Good morning. Welcome to this session that they are dealing with and working with local of the Education Committee, part of our wide-ranging authorities to identify these victims of trafficking and inquiry into the child protection system. I am to put some plans in place for supporting them. delighted that you have been able to join us today and We have two areas that we work in as AFRUCA. One give evidence to us. I do not know whether you have is children who are trafficked for domestic given evidence to a Select Committee before, but you exploitation, and the other is this growing will have seen Mr Murdoch, or the Murdochs, being phenomenon of witchcraft branding, and branding questioned and grilled; we hope it will be a less children as witches or evil spirits. That is growing. difficult session for you today. Over the last year we have seen and worked with 12 Damian Hinds: And us. cases in the London area of what we perceive as Chair: And us, yes. I am hoping nobody has any severe abuse and neglect arising from these beliefs cream pies in the audience behind. Hopefully it will of witchcraft. be a friendly session, but dealing with very serious issues. We conduct inquiries; we take written evidence Kathy Rowe: In terms of children and people under 18 and oral evidence. We then write reports with who are subject to honour-based violence, and forced recommendations to Government, and the marriage in particular, it is very difficult to give an Government is then obliged to respond to those estimate, but I can tell you that over the past two years recommendations within a couple of months. That is Karma Nirvana received over 3,000 calls from young the business end of what we do—making people under the age of 18. The DCSF did a scoping recommendations. A gentle reminder that I make to study on forced marriage in 2009 and estimated witnesses each time is that, if you have between 5,000 and 8,000 cases a year. recommendations that you think need to be made for Colin Walker: I want to echo that point. It is very change, or indeed want to emphasise things that are difficult to estimate the number of children who have going on now that are good and must be protected, been trafficked into the UK. Over a three-year period, we would love to hear them from you, clearly. Could 942 children were identified as having been trafficked you tell us how many children in England are, in your into the UK for a variety of purposes, such as opinion, affected by the abuse that you campaign domestic servitude, sexual exploitation and forced against? criminality. Tragically, 301 of those have gone Joanna Sharpen: In terms of domestic violence, what missing from the care they had been placed into by we know is that 750,000 children each year witness their local authority. domestic violence, and domestic violence features in However, there are significant problems associated the cases of 75% of children who are subject to a child with the identification of children who have been protection plan. Two women a week are killed by trafficked. The National Referral Mechanism is staffed domestic violence, and because a lot of those women by people from the UK Borders Agency, whose will have children, 30% of them will be found by their expertise lies in immigration and not in child children. It is a huge issue. protection. Therefore, we think there are a significant However, I also want the Committee to take into account teenagers and their experiences of abuse in number of children who are not identified as being their own relationships. We know that 40% of trafficked. teenagers are currently in abusive relationships, and Also, many children, by virtue of the abuse that they that rises to 70% when they are teenage mothers. We have suffered and the power that the trafficker has are talking about huge numbers. over them, can often take a considerable period of Prospera Tedam: In terms of trafficking of African time to disclose the nature of the abuse that they have children for the purposes of either sexual exploitation suffered. Therefore, it is commonly agreed amongst or domestic servitude, over the last 10 or so years we many NGOs and agencies that work with trafficked have been involved with 400 children. That is within children that the figures that we see officially the London area. More recently, we have been advised represent the tip of the iceberg, and that a significantly of cases within the Manchester area, and the Bradford larger number of children is being trafficked into this and Sheffield areas of Yorkshire as well. We know country, and they are not being identified or picked up. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker
Q234 Chair: How old are they? What is the that make these children particularly vulnerable to this breakdown in age of the children being trafficked? kind of abuse? Prospera, do you want to start? Colin Walker: I do not have those figures to hand, but Prospera Tedam: In terms of the children who come I can get them. It does operate across the age range. from some parts of Africa linked to spirit possession, We think that a significant amount of the we have families or communities ostracising them for under-reporting exists in children in their adolescence, various things, such as being disabled. That is a key because a lot of social service support mechanisms are indicator of the likelihood of further abuse. Some of geared towards identifying needs in younger children, the disabilities are fairly severe; I would imagine that and are reliant on older children disclosing their abuse the families would not have an understanding of them, before those support mechanisms come into play. and therefore would seek answers not through the However, to repeat the point I made about the medical channels but through other channels. difficulties that many children have about disclosing their experiences, those support mechanisms do not Q238 Pat Glass: I have come across a couple of kick in for quite a while. cases, and in all of those cases they were disabled children. Q235 Chair: Did you say all of the 942 children who Prospera Tedam: Absolutely. That is definitely one of were known to be trafficked were put into care in the the indicators. The other one is economic deprivation last three years? generally—poverty, unemployment. Another is Colin Walker: Yes. anything that some families perceive to be ill luck. It could be the death of a relative, illness of another Q236 Chair: Of those, a third have disappeared out family member, home repossession—you name it. I of care and people do not know where they are? feel that sometimes it is the easy option to blame the Colin Walker: Yes. The majority will not be found. child. They will simply go missing, and I think it is fair to Very recently, one of the cases we have become assume that many end up again in the hands of those involved in was linked to infertility in a step-parent, who trafficked them, leaving them again vulnerable to and that was linked directly to the child. In some cases exploitation and some pretty horrendous forms of the child is kept or left at home, and families will abuse. One of our key campaign asks as a charity is consult, as it were, through various channels in Africa. for proper, safe accommodation to be provided to In other instances these children will be taken to children, and for the type of accommodation provided places of worship. I say that very loosely because to the child to be based on an independent assessment there are some very specific African churches that of the child’s needs and to be flexible over time as the believe in exorcism and being able to deliver children needs of the child change. who are perceived as having a negative impact, if you One of our key concerns is to ensure that a child who like, on families. Some of these church elders or has been trafficked into this country is identified early, leaders will then say they have received a vision that because it is really important that there be an early supports the argument the child is the cause of the opportunity of ensuring that when you have contact infertility, etc. with a child, they are offered the support they need. It is critical that they are moved into a location that breaks the relationship between them and their Q239 Pat Glass: In a couple of the cases that I have trafficker. There are problems at the moment when come across, the children were educated at home. Is a child is moved into safe accommodation; the safe that a risk factor, or is that just my experience? accommodation might not be secure enough, which Prospera Tedam: No, it is a risk factor as well. I was leaves them vulnerable to being re-trafficked, or the going to come to education. You have some children accommodation might be in the same area into which who are taken to places of worship for hours on end, the child was trafficked. through the night, into the early hours of the morning. One of our key asks is for local authorities possibly They turn up to school asleep, tired, etc., and those to develop reciprocal arrangements with other local are some of the risk factors. They very rarely will authorities, to ensure that when a child is trafficked, visit the GP or the health authorities. Over-the-counter that child can be moved into safe accommodation in drugs will be bought as medication to use for an area away from the community into which they whatever ailment families might perceive children to were trafficked, because that is where the trafficker have. could still be based. It is a community with which the Kathy Rowe: Risk factors for children being forced trafficker could have cultural links. It is important to into marriage really relate to the fact that they are break that relationship and move a child away for their within a family dynamic that operates on an honour- own safety. based system. There may have been a history of arranged marriages, which of course are not the same Q237 Pat Glass: Working in London relatively thing, but that might be part of the history. The family recently, I had a crisis intervention team working in wishes to control elements of the child’s behaviour, primary, and almost every single child we saw in that their sexual behaviour, and whether the child is in team who had massive problems had witnessed involved in out-of-school activities. The family domestic violence. I think the issue of domestic becomes concerned about them becoming more violence and the damage that it does to children is westernised, and certainly in the cases that call Karma hugely underestimated. Looking at the other kinds of Nirvana, for 25% the trigger was them having a children whom you represent, what are the risk factors boyfriend, and for another 25% the trigger was the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 42 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker concerns of the family about them becoming more economic and personal development, but also the westernised. child may desire it to help relieve the burden on their Some of the risk indicators are around school and family, as they might perceive it, or to provide some education. I cannot emphasise enough that education kind of support to their family. There might be poor and schools are critical to the identification of risk of levels of education in the country, so again the children being forced into marriage. Many of these opportunity to move abroad might be seen as an families are not involved with children’s social care, opportunity to take advantage of. for example. One of the concerns that Karma Nirvana In many cases, traffickers will exploit those quite has, following the recommendation of the Home understandable desires with fairly fake promises of the Office report, is that the Education Secretary said he opportunities that lie ahead of them should they did not think it was his role to be prescriptive to engage in this. As a result, the child can be quite schools. We would argue that schools are a critical vulnerable. It is also worth noting that while in many agency in terms of identification. cases families may be unaware that their child is going to be trafficked, in some cases the family can be quite Q240 Pat Glass: What kind of things should teachers complicit in this participation—again, often because look for? Once the child has gone, it is too late. of recognition of opportunities for commercial gain. Kathy Rowe: Absolutely. This is the problem. The Those factors are prevalent in many of those Forced Marriage Unit, which does absolutely superb countries, and leave the children vulnerable to being work, is often involved after the marriage has taken trafficked in the first place. place. Indicators in school might be concern about Once they are trafficked into the UK, a number of approaching school holidays, children who are absent factors leave them vulnerable. In many cases they from school, requests for extended leave. There are have formed quite a close relationship with the person always cautions around that, in that not every family who is trafficking them. In many cases the child might asking for extended leave to go to Pakistan or not even be aware that they are being trafficked. In wherever is doing so for reasons of forced marriage, cases of trafficking children for sexual exploitation, but there will be other indicators. the child may have been groomed over a significant The school may be aware that other siblings within period in preparation for this kind of abuse. The fact the family, or family members, are watching a certain that the child has developed a close relationship with young person. A young person may become very the trafficker leaves them vulnerable to being concerned that the school does not write home to exploited. complain about their behaviour in any way. Maybe If a child is separated from the trafficker—which, in they have been using a mobile phone and that has the first 24 to 72 hours, is exactly what all services been taken, and a teacher might say, “We are going to involved in this should be looking to do—the child write to your parents,” and get a very strong reaction, may seek to regain contact with that trafficker. The because the parents do not know they have a mobile child may have been told an awful lot of stories about phone, or are wearing make-up—those sorts of things. what to expect from the authorities in this country: “If Those are the sorts of indicators. you come into contact with the authorities, they will There are similarities here around what might trigger deport you. You must keep away from them. You must a forced marriage. A bereavement in the family might get back into contact with me.” They may come from trigger that. Again, children with disabilities are particularly at risk, because the family want to ensure countries in which the authorities and police are quite their future. We are talking about promises. Children corrupt, and so may expect the same things from the might talk about the fact that they have been promised authorities in the UK. That ongoing dependence on in marriage at a very early age, but it is the honour the trafficker is a critical problem, and it leaves the system, this notion of the honour of the family. child very vulnerable. They are in an alien country Siblings might be at risk; where perhaps an older and an alien culture, and that is something that social sibling has refused to marry, another child in the workers need to be aware of and recognise in family might be forced into honouring that contract to providing the services that a child victim of save the family’s honour. There are quite a number trafficking requires. of triggers. Q242 Craig Whittaker: To what extent is the abuse Q241 Pat Glass: Thank you. Colin? you advocate against cast as something other than Colin Walker: I suppose the risk factors for children child abuse—perhaps a cultural problem or an who might be trafficked can be divided into two immigration issue? What practical consequences does sections: the risk factors that leave a child vulnerable that have for the children you work with? Who wants to being trafficked in the first place, and the risk to answer? Kathy is chomping at the bit. factors that exist when a child has been trafficked, Kathy Rowe: I think that is at the heart of the issues leaving them vulnerable to further abuse, around forced marriage. There is a lot of confusion re-trafficking, etc. The top three countries from which between arranged marriage and forced marriage. children are trafficked are Vietnam, Nigeria and There is, most certainly, among professionals a lack China. It would be fair to say that there are common of confidence in dealing with it, and a real worry factors in many of these countries. Many children can about being perceived to be culturally insensitive, so come from quite poor backgrounds—poor or broken people back off. I think the points being made in a family backgrounds. There is an understandable desire number of reports show that this type of abuse is like to escape those backgrounds, both for the child’s own no other. The nature of it is that there are multiple cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker perpetrators, both within the family and within the Q243 Craig Whittaker: In your experience, is extended community. domestic violence a cultural issue? I would echo the comments made about special Joanna Sharpen: It can be, but it cuts across all provision, because in terms of interventions to prevent boundaries, and all cultures. It is something that cuts a marriage, the child or young person concerned will across every boundary, but I do not think that often be disowned by their families. Research has professionals are always skilled in being able to shown that the perpetrators can number as many as recognise the warning signs. As my colleagues have 25, and that makes it entirely different, in terms of said, they often fear being accused of cultural who that young person can trust, and also in terms insensitivity. of risk. In particular, teenagers fall through the gaps. For 15 The issues around cultural sensitivity do mean that to 18-year-olds, it should be dealt with as a child professionals back off, and because it is very different, protection issue, but quite often it is not. There are not as I have already said, from any other kind of abuse, it the appropriate services, and they cannot yet access does not fit within the practice wisdom that normally mainstream services. We know how hard it is for operates around child protection, which would be adults to leave abusive relationships, but when young around consulting with parents and sharing people do not have those resources available to them, information. When dealing with cases of forced it becomes very difficult. We need to start seeing that marriage, that can be positively dangerous. You are as a child protection issue. asking professionals to undo the principles on which Colin Walker: A key point to emphasise is that, as far they would ordinarily work around child abuse. as we are concerned, the trafficking of children should Prospera Tedam: I take your point, Kathy, and I agree always be seen as a child protection issue. In the UK, that one of the most difficult things is when we have quite a strong and mature framework practitioners, faced with issues like, for example, regarding safeguarding children, and the Government witchcraft belief and trafficking of specific women, go has clearly stated, in developing its trafficking back to the families that perhaps have been part of the strategy, that it sees child trafficking as a child abuse, trying to gain information. Whatever protection issue. However, there are some differences information is then given is backed by 10, 15 or 20 between what is said and what happens in practice. other members of the family. It then becomes a One of our key concerns is the fact that dealing with numbers game: 20 people against the one individual, child victims of trafficking becomes conflated with young person or child, and sometimes for practitioners immigration as an issue, which can cause quite a few that is enough to then say, “We think we want to close problems. this,” or “We do not think we want to take it any There are some examples of where this has been further”, or alternatively, “Let’s ring AFRUCA.” overridden. The National Referral Mechanism is a We have found that once we have put on training for mechanism run by the UK Borders Agency and the practitioners, we are providing something similar to UK Human Trafficking Centre. That is responsible for supervision after the fact. They have dealt with the determining whether or not a child has been trafficked cases, and they come to training a month or two later into this country. Those organisations are very much and say, “I had a case two months ago. This is what I focused on immigration. The officials who run the did.” It is a bit too late at that point, because the National Referral Mechanism are immigration process has stopped. It is about recognising that some officials. They do not have expertise in child of the information that we are sharing—I suspect this protection, so many of those cases are judged on an is true for child protection as well—means that you immigration basis, rather than a child protection basis. will identify specific members of the family that may There are also problems, in that the Minister need to be involved, and that not all information is responsible for child victims of trafficking is the shared. Minister for Immigration, Damian Green; we think the Another significant factor is when parents will bring Minister responsible should be Tim Loughton, the along an advocate, if you like, and it is usually the Minister for Children, as it is a child protection issue. leader of the church, in terms of our faith-based abuse. That would send out a really good signal. That is very difficult, because these are the very In terms of the problems that we can see on the people that we are trying to move away from, and ground arising out of this confusion between child they come and say, “This is the only person I have protection and immigration, one is that it can generate faith in, trust in, and have a relationship with, and I a culture of disbelief, sometimes, among some of the want them to be at this meeting.” It is very difficult. professionals in the agencies working with child Joanna Sharpen: What I would like to point out victims of trafficking. As I mentioned, it can about children living at home with domestic violence sometimes take quite some time for a child to first is that it is still seen as an adult issue, and children’s come to terms with the fact that they might have been voices just are not heard. A recommendation would trafficked at all, because they might not realise that. be to have a specific risk assessment tool used by all Secondly, it requires a lot of time to develop a bond professionals for assessing risk to children, which of trust with an individual with whom they feel they goes beyond just using the CAF, because I think a lot can start disclosing some of the harrowing experiences of people are not happy and skilled enough to use the they have gone through. It is only once those CAF to recognise signs of domestic violence. If we processes have been gone through that a child might look at all the sections around the CAF, every single disclose that they have been trafficked. one of them can be a cause and consequence of However, in the meantime, they may well have been domestic violence in the home. advised that they should start going through cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:19] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 44 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker proceedings to get asylum in the country. Sometimes cooking, and cleaning for five or six years without what happens is that those asylum proceedings start leaving the house, for example. That caused some to take place, and then the child later discloses that difficulty with the police service in particular, but also they have been a victim of trafficking. What we have social workers did not see how or why the young encountered through some of our casework is that person could not, en route to the market or the shops, then sometimes leads to a reaction in officials of: stop and talk to anybody. We need to bear in mind “They are saying this just because it will enhance their that some of these young people have been told, “As chances of getting asylum.” soon as you talk to a non-family member, ill luck will befall your family at home.” They will not stop Joe Q244 Craig Whittaker: On that specific point, you Bloggs in the street and say, “Can you help me? This have mentioned immigration/child-safeguarding is what I need to do: I need to get away from this.” issues. Ignore the Border Agency, because I think you They are being held, if you like, emotionally, and have made it fairly clear that it is not robust enough asked not ever to disclose. there, but with other officials in the system, how robust is the system? How likely is it that they will Q246 Craig Whittaker: On that basis, how often do pick it up soon enough? referrals to children’s social care get taken forward, Colin Walker: It is patchy. A lot of it depends on the and how many do not? Do we have an idea of what training of those officials. Some officials get it and that is? have the expertise, but many do not. I am not sure if Joanna Sharpen: I do for domestic violence. A recent we will be coming on to this, but as an example, when report shows that only 5% of police referrals made it a child is first coming into this country and there is a through to an active assessment by social care. What suspicion, we would like to see the system work so we know is that the thresholds vary from region to that when there is a suspicion that a child might have region, and they are increasing. With increased police been trafficked, that is when the safeguarding referrals and increased awareness, we are getting measures come into play. It is imperative, if that child increased disclosures and referrals to social services, may have been trafficked, that they are separated from and those departments just cannot meet that need. their traffickers. That breaks the cycle, breaks the They are so stretched. The worry is that, as thresholds relationship and enables the child to recover and start increase, many children who are at risk are falling pursuing a normal life. through the gaps. However, a lot of our child protection systems are Social workers are encouraged to make an assessment geared up towards identifying child abuse and having after there have been three incidents reported in a a range of different adults and support networks year. We would want to see earlier reporting. They are around that can provide evidence as to whether or not told that they can report earlier if there is significant that child has suffered abuse—teachers, police forces, harm, and although section 120 of the Adoption of social workers, family members, etc. When a child Children Act does include witnessing domestic victim of trafficking comes into this country, there is violence as significant harm, lots of people interpret no one. Often the signs being demonstrated by that that in different ways. There are differences between child are the only things we have to work on. For a areas about when they would action an immediate social worker to act on presumption, and think, “There assessment. It can be a very difficult process. It a are signs that the child might be being trafficked” and postcode lottery as to what services you will get. act on them, takes a slight culture change and a lot of bravery, and it is also challenging because a lot of Q247 Craig Whittaker: Does anybody else have any the actions we want to see coming into play are quite ideas on percentages? resource-intensive, such as providing safe Kathy Rowe: I cannot give you percentages, but what accommodation. We know that social work as a sector I can say is that most of the presenting problems will is suffering a squeeze, as many other areas are, when go to education and will be through schools. it comes to budgets. Children’s social care become involved in the forced We know that a lot of social workers do not have the marriage issue at the point at which that is almost necessary training. As part of their qualifications to going to take place. become a social worker, they very rarely have access to information about child trafficking. Therefore they Q248 Craig Whittaker: How do thresholds affect do not have the confidence to act on those suspicions. forced marriage, then? Can we see a postcode lottery We think that moves on to the need for better training. with that as well? Kathy Rowe: No, I think it is absolutely about Q245 Craig Whittaker: Does anybody else have a knowledge base. This year, Karma Nirvana have done different view from Colin’s around authorities and 20 roadshows, and about 100 professionals have picking up on the trafficking issue? attended each. I can tell you now that 70% of those Prospera Tedam: In a very recent case that we worked professionals were unaware even of the forced with, where the trafficker was eventually sentenced, marriage protection order, and certainly unaware of the young people faced some disbelief because it had what might indicate that a child might be at risk of a taken a lot of years, and they were now adult, if you forced marriage. For example, a concern about the like. The stories they were telling were historic. fact that a young person has a boyfriend—“My Building up to that, there was a level of disbelief in parents are upset because I have a boyfriend”—would the stories they were telling. People could not believe not meet any threshold as a risk factor if you referred that they had been working, looking after children, it to social services. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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What we have been asked for by professionals, and Q253 Craig Whittaker: I wanted to touch base with what Karma Nirvana is in the process of doing, is Prospera on this. Clearly, the issue that you are talking putting together a training programme and a risk about concerns a very small number of children. How assessment tool. What is very clear, particularly on the do you make it so that social workers recognise what roadshows, is that there is a moment when people just is going on? wake up. We have had teachers and others come up Prospera Tedam: What we are finding in AFRUCA afterwards and say, “Oh no; I realise now that I have more and more is that members of the public and missed those signals.” I think it is down to what members of the community are ringing us on behalf Professor Munro is saying: we need a highly skilled of young people. It is not more recent immigrants; it and trained workforce. is some people who have been here for quite a long In child protection, bearing in mind that I have spent time, so there is that as well. 30 years in child protection, the issues are becoming We are getting more and more phone calls from more complex and new issues are coming to the fore, members of specific communities saying, “We know like child trafficking and child abuse across the of Child A or B living at this address, but we do not internet. Those sorts of things are complex issues, and want to ring social services ourselves; they will come we need to provide specific risk assessment tools and out and see us and I have to go to work. How much training around those issues. Karma Nirvana is time will it take?” They sometimes want us to tell certainly responding to that. I would be really keen to them what we think the process will look like for them see the Committee supporting us in working with the if they stick their neck above the parapet and make Forced Marriage Unit and a range of partners in the referral. Sometimes they do not want to take it any producing that specialist assessment. further, and we will, on their behalf, ring the local authority and pass the information on. Other times people have come in and said, “I will do this, but I do Q249 Chair: Who should get this training? It sounds not have significant time.” like a very sophisticated level of skill is required. Is We have provided training for African parents, free that required of every teacher in the land, on top of of charge, across the UK and we continue to provide all the other things they need to do? training for social workers, educational staff, health Kathy Rowe: I think you could have child protection visitors, etc., on very specific issues. We also support co-ordinators in schools, for example. This particular them to be able to not just identify the problem, but issue is dealt with either as a domestic violence issue take it forward. I am in two minds about the amount in local authorities, or a child protection issue. of training, because I also teach in an HEI, and there is only so much you can teach social work students Q250 Chair: I am just trying to work out, given the over the course of three years to meet every limited training time and limited resource, which is conceivable possibility. That is quite difficult. not going to change, how best those should be focused However, I think that what we have done and what in order to make the biggest difference and make it we do well is provide them with the basic tools that likely that more children at risk could be picked up. are transferable. I am just hoping that a forum like Kathy Rowe: I think you could target training, and this will provide further avenues for that. certainly you would not be talking about every Joanna Sharpen: In terms of training, we would like teacher. The role within schools for child protection to see all teachers, social workers and police have this training would be to disseminate. I think there is a as part of their core initial training and continuing danger, when we talk about risk assessment tools, of professional development. I would want that to cover thinking that this is something terribly complicated. all forms of violence against women and girls. The As far as forced marriage is concerned, it is about Home Office commissioned us to write modules for saying that social workers and teachers should be those particular courses, which would be part of their trained, in partnership with parents and communities. core training. If we were able to implement that, I In this particular instance, as with some of the other think in a few years’ time we would have a skilled issues we have heard this morning, that is not a route. work force that would be much more confident in responding to these issues. Q251 Pat Glass: Some local authorities do this very Colin Walker: Just to echo that point, I understand well. that a lot can be expected of social workers, but child trafficking is not part of their training. We have heard Kathy Rowe: They do. many social workers voice frustration at their lack of knowledge about that. If we were trying to influence Q252 Pat Glass: What they do is target specific the curriculum of doctors, we would go to schools—those schools where there are children who organisations such as the British Medical Association they know might be at risk. Those schools will and the GMC. Such an organisation does not really employ people from the communities within the exist for social workers, so curricula are decided by school—principally young people—so that these individual universities. However, there might be a young girls have someone to go to. They also engage new organisation being set up, the College for Social very positively with the leaders within those Workers. I am not sure if it will be a Royal College communities. or not yet. That might be one means by which we Kathy Rowe: Yes. might be able to influence the curriculum for social Chair: You make an excellent witness as well as a workers, if they play a similar role. We would questioner, Pat. certainly like to see child trafficking form part of that. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 46 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker
Q254 Damian Hinds: I apologise, Colin; this will to further education. It would be things like concern probably be a very basic question. Do forgive me for about westernised behaviour and not allowing them to that. Can you define trafficking? have a boyfriend. Colin Walker: The easy ones are the hardest. I think it is best to say what trafficking is not. There is a Q257 Damian Hinds: When you say “tools”, do you difference between trafficking and smuggling. The really just mean telling people to look for these key way that I define trafficking in my mind is that it things? is often against the individual’s will, and the Kathy Rowe: Yes, but to do that in a more formalised trafficking is often for the purpose of exploitation. The way, with questions. The training would also be about exploitation takes place during the trafficking and the meaning behind the answer, if you like, in terms once they have arrived at their destination country, of assessing that risk. and they are exploited through child prostitution, domestic servitude, forced labour, etc. I think that the Q258 Damian Hinds: Something like a script, in a difference between trafficking and smuggling is that sense? smuggling is merely the act by which someone is Kathy Rowe: Yes. Nothing complex. Trust me; after enabled to, of their own free will, get into a country 30 years of child protection, producing yet more illegally. That is the definition of smuggling. assessments is not something I would want. Trafficking is not that; it is often forced and people are coerced. It is against their will. The difference Q259 Damian Hinds: Sure. I understand. My between children and adults is that adults are apologies, Chairman; neither of those things were in determined to be able to have completely free choice; the list of things I was supposed to be asking therefore if they are trafficked, it is against their will. questions about. Children cannot be complicit in their own trafficking. Kathy Rowe: Can I just add one thing? 14% of our A child might not be aware that they are being calls are from young men. I just want to issue a word trafficked, but what we understand as a child, the of caution about this being predominantly abuse rights of the child, and the decisions that a child is against girls. able to make mean that even if they consent to it, if Colin Walker: A quarter of children identified as the purpose of the trafficking is for them to be being trafficked through the National Referral exploited—to be put into domestic servitude, or Mechanism are boys. The majority of children sexual exploitation, etc.—they are being trafficked, trafficked into forced labour are boys—for example, irrespective of whether or not they consent to it. Vietnamese boys working on cannabis farms.
Q255 Damian Hinds: I am sorry to belabour this, Q260 Damian Hinds: Just for the help of our but do we use 16 or 18 as a cut-off point? Even if, transcript here, to be absolutely clear, I thought I heard say, a 14-year-old child says, “I am very happy to 40, and then I heard 14. move to the United Kingdom to work,” because they Kathy Rowe: 14% of our calls received. are a child, and we do not do child labour in this country, we would define that on their behalf as Q261 Damian Hinds: Thank you. I wanted to ask child trafficking. about the connections and potential conflicts between Colin Walker: Yes, we would. It is 18. different areas of the public sector in dealing with some of these difficult issues. Colin, you have touched Q256 Damian Hinds: Thank you. Kathy, may I also on this already in your discussion about Damian ask you a clarification or definitional question? Tell Green and Tim Loughton. Trafficking, ritual abuse me what risk assessment tools look like, in physical and domestic violence come under the Home Office; terms. forced marriage comes between the Home and Kathy Rowe: In physical terms, what we are looking Foreign Offices; child protection is with the at is not complex; it is about the sorts of questions Department for Education; and local authorities are that you might ask and what the meaning is behind involved in all sorts of ways. I suppose this is a the answers. leading question, but how well co-ordinated are those Damian Hinds: Give me an example. One of the activities, and if you were to co-ordinate them better, things that I think some of us are a bit nervous about maybe by bringing them under one umbrella, which is the design of systems and processes that become umbrella would it be? How else might you improve very back-covering: “We asked every conceivable the links? Who would like to address that simple, question; we literally ticked boxes,” and at the end of short question? it there were still children being abused, if you see Colin Walker: I guess I have raised it: I am sorry to what I mean. I am just wondering the extent to which say that I think these different pieces of work are you are talking about something formalised. Is it pretty poorly co-ordinated. The forthcoming child really about just having the sorts of people who can sexual exploitation strategy is being led by the spot these kinds of problems and do not mind saying Department for Education, and the human trafficking so? strategy is being led by the Home Office, yet no Kathy Rowe: Yes, but also recognising the information or briefing material has come out to show significance, in terms of forced marriage, of things how these two pieces of work and these two strategies that would not be significant in the case of an ordinary will co-ordinate. Both of them are relevant to our teenager. It would be things like restriction of activity, work as an organisation representing child victims of and the reluctance of parents to have their child go on trafficking, many of whom are sexually exploited. It cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker is an obvious thing to say, but the problem is that, as If a child goes into the immigration system first, long as these different sectors work independently of before their concerns as a victim of trafficking and each other, many children will fall through the gaps. abuse are identified, there are serious problems. First As long as a decision as to whether or not a child has you get the suspicion that a child is saying this been trafficked is led by officials who have very much because they want to get asylum, but also you get a an immigration focus, there will be difficulties in very real concern that the child is not given the identifying people. If those people are not identified, services they require and not placed in the safe they will not get access to the services they require; accommodation they need to protect them from the they will not be put into the safe accommodation that traffickers who brought them into this country. I think they need to separate them from their traffickers. we need to presume that the danger signs are real and act on that first; I think it is the wrong way round at Q262 Chair: Is there a danger, Colin, that all you the moment. have to do is say the right words and magically you Neil Carmichael: This happens to be the sort of are out of the immigration system, straight into— theme that I was going to be asking about later, so I Colin Walker: No, no. might as well do it now, if you do not mind. Chair: No, I do not think we will. I will carry on with Damian for now. Q263 Chair: Will we not see a big spike in the number of people saying that in order to gain access to the UK? Q267 Damian Hinds: Kathy? Colin Walker: I can understand that, particularly for Kathy Rowe: My experience, and this may not be officials who have an immigration background and are popular, is that co-ordination and inter-agency work working with children who have applied for asylum works much better at a local level than at a central Government level. That experience is borne out by the and then say that they have been trafficked, the fact I have sat on a number of interdepartmental inevitable response is, “They are doing this because steering groups, and there can be incredible they want to enhance their asylum status.” preciousness: “The Ministry of Justice is doing that, so we as a Department are not going to.” Q264 Chair: Will they ever be right? Colin Walker: I do not know the figures. Our concern, Q268 Damian Hinds: At a local level, do you find as an organisation that campaigns to improve the lot that co-ordination does work? of child victims of trafficking, is that at the moment Kathy Rowe: It works much better at a local level. those officials do not have the expertise with which As a Safeguarding Children Board manager, bringing they can identify the first signs that a child may have partners around the table has not been difficult. In been trafficked. Obviously, we have to work this terms of what we are talking about—the training and through, but a great sign would be for responsibility assessment tools for domestic violence and so on— for child victims of trafficking to be moved to the the vehicle for that ought to be local Safeguarding Minister for Education rather than the Minister for Adult and Children Boards. Immigration. We need to see more from the Government on how the different responsibilities co- Q269 Damian Hinds: It can be quite a lengthy and ordinate between Departments. involved process, though, can’t it? Some of the tools and processes that we were talking about earlier come Q265 Chair: The counter-argument would be that into play here. you are taking what could be, especially if we get a Kathy Rowe: The boards provide ongoing spike, an immigration case and handing it to professional training, and that is where a lot of these Education Ministers, who have no real responsibility issues will be dealt with. One of my frustrations is for and understanding of the immigration system. that we are all paid for by the public, whether that is Colin Walker: A child who has been trafficked into central or local government; they do not have this this country has been trafficked against their will. splitting off. Somebody who wants a service does not They are being coerced. It is not an immigration issue; think: “Is this the Department for Education or is this it is a child protection issue. the Ministry of Justice?” That is where there could be real leadership at the centre about having themes Q266 Chair: I am picking up on the fact that if, as where there is cross-party agreement. soon as you suggest that you are being trafficked, you A very good example of that is the Violence against automatically get out of the immigration system, you Women and Girls action plan. The Forced Marriage will see many more people, for immigration purposes, Unit has done absolutely superb work. I am not playing that card. Is that a legitimate concern of the convinced the DfE and others assist them in those Government? broader issues that relate to children. We certainly Colin Walker: I understand what you are saying. I work very closely with the Ministry of Justice, the think what needs to happen, in the case of child Forced Marriage Unit and all Departments. victims of trafficking, is that their vulnerabilities, as a potential victim of trafficking, need to be identified Q270 Chair: The National Safeguarding Delivery first. They need to be offered the protection they Unit was a recommendation of the Laming review, require, and then their movement through the and I think it was shut down last year. The very aim immigration system can begin. At the moment, it of that was to bring agencies together, was it not? seems to happen the other way around. Kathy Rowe: Yes. It was. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 48 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker
Q271 Chair: Was that abolition a mistake? is invisible in all of this. Often we see parents as a Kathy Rowe: Yes. homogeneous entity, whereas we need to separate the non-abusive parent from the abusive parent. The best Q272 Chair: That is your view, Joanna? way to protect children is to protect that non-abusive Joanna Sharpen: It is. At the moment we have a very parent, but what we also need to be doing, as well as fragmented way of looking at things. Picking up on risk assessing for her safety, is separate risk Kathy’s point about the DfE, it should be a assessments for children, because still their voices are cross-party, cross-Government issue. The Violence not heard. We do not have enough supervised contact against Women and Girls strategy is very much centres with qualified staff to be able to recognise welcomed, but again we would question the warning signs of abuse. Children’s wishes and commitment of the DfE within some of that. I sit on feelings are supposed to be heard, but they are not. the Advisory Group for Violence against Women and Girls in the DfE, and really welcome their Q274 Chair: Sorry to interrupt your flow. How big a involvement in that. However, they do not always turn shortfall is there? up to the inter-ministerial groups on these issues, and Joanna Sharpen: I do not know numbers, but it is we need to be making sure that all Departments are absolutely huge. Lots of children are given held accountable for this issue. unsupervised contact, or it is in these pseudo-contact What we find is that there is even a lot of confusion centres, where the staff are volunteers not trained in over definitions. Lots of Government Departments the skills that they need to recognise abuse. We are refer to the Home Office definition of domestic really concerned that this is a huge issue, and there is violence. The Ministry of Justice is trying to narrow it, just not enough to back it up. So many children are so that it is only provable physical violence. Teenage further abused. Contact is often used as a tool by relationship abuse is not counted as domestic abusive men, not because they want to see their violence, because they are under 18. It might be that children, but because they want to further abuse them, social services sees something as domestic violence, or to further abuse the woman by having that control but the housing department does not. We are and power over her. designing these risk assessment tools and focusing on crisis intervention to give women the information they Q275 Damian Hinds: Could you just go back to need to leave these relationships to protect their these volunteers who are not properly trained to spot children, and yet with the changes in housing benefit the signs of abuse? What sorts of organisations are and legal aid, we are not giving them the resources these and what kinds of people? they need to make that leap to leaving. Joanna Sharpen: It is difficult. There are supervised With all these different fragmented policies, if we do contact centres, where social workers and other not understand what is going on, how are we trained staff work, and it is fantastic. There are expecting women and children to be able to make staggered times, so the victim and perpetrator never those decisions? We really need stronger commitment meet each other, etc. However, sometimes you do get from all Departments to pull together on this issue. these centres in church halls, for instance, or Prospera Tedam: I completely agree with everyone. children’s centres, where there are well-meaning There is the added dimension of language barriers or volunteers, but they are not given the training they differences in understanding and interpretation of all need. You are always supposed to have sight and these different definitions that people we work with sound of what the abuser is saying to the child, but will understand when we put it to them, however we often these children are left to go off and play with might interpret that. the abusive parent; staff cannot hear what the abuser is saying to them. That is a typical time when abusers Q273 Damian Hinds: May I also ask about child will talk to children in a very negative way about contact policies and the obvious potential, I suppose, their parent. for conflict there, as against policies to try to protect women and children from abuse, and how well co- Q276 Damian Hinds: Sorry, what sort of ordinated those two things are? Joanna? organisations are organising these sessions? Joanna Sharpen: Again, unfortunately, they are not Joanna Sharpen: It can vary. It depends. It can be very well co-ordinated. We know that domestic volunteer sessions; it can be in church halls. The thing violence is present in two thirds of all serious case is that we do not know, because there is no control reviews into child deaths and serious injury, and we over it. know of children who are killed or seriously abused during contact visits. Again, what we are saying to Q277 Damian Hinds: For these parents to come to women is: “If you do not leave this abusive this thing, it is unlikely to be randomly organised by relationship, you are failing to protect your children a church, for example. The two parents are probably and they may be taken away from you,” so often a not both members of that church, so who is woman will leave for the sake of protecting her organising it? children, and then she is put in the impossible position Joanna Sharpen: It is just that that building would where the courts are saying, “But the children must be where it takes place. have contact with this man who is too dangerous to live with.” What kind of message is that giving her? Q278 Damian Hinds: So who is organising it? We also put a lot of emphasis on the woman as the Joanna Sharpen: Sometimes social workers are the one who has to protect the children. The perpetrator ones who are able to organise that and supervise it, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker but again they are not trained in understanding the front-line professionals: policemen, teachers and warning signs and what to look out for. social workers. Do you think they have sufficient awareness of and sufficient training in the problems Q279 Damian Hinds: Sorry, you did not say social that we have been discussing? workers; you said “staffed by volunteers”. Kathy Rowe: Frankly, in the case of forced marriage, Joanna Sharpen: Sorry, sometimes they are staffed no. The guidance that the Forced Marriage Unit has by volunteers, and sometimes it is social workers. The produced is excellent. However, our roadshows problem is that there is no kind of co-ordination over indicate that a large number of professionals are not this, so it is very difficult to know who is the— aware of that guidance, and certainly not aware of the legislation that would support them. The answer to Q280 Damian Hinds: Sorry, forgive me for being that is no. I suspect that that is part of what we were confused; are these organised by local authorities, by talking about earlier, in terms of the huge amount of charities, by random people? I do not understand. guidance and advice and so on being produced. Which organisations are organising these sessions in church halls with volunteers. Can you help me to Q283 Chair: Can you tell us who is good? You said understand? in answer to an earlier question that some areas are a Joanna Sharpen: I will have to get back to you with lot better than others. In what areas do we have the the details of who they are. The thing is, it can be all best co-ordination? of the things that you have just mentioned, and Joanna Sharpen: Unfortunately, it can depend on the because there is not this co-ordination, we do not individual responding. It is not as though there is one know what is happening. department or one group of professionals who are better equipped. It can really depend on whether the Q281 Damian Hinds: But if it was a charity or individuals responsible—the police officer attending, whoever, how would those parents end up at that the social worker assigned to the case, the teacher in place? I am not following the system at all. the classroom—are really skilled at picking up those Prospera Tedam: I will give an example. Some Sure warning signs and have gone forward for training and Start centres and family centres have been used for tried to find out more about it. contact. The social worker, team manager or whoever might negotiate the use of a room or a space at a Q284 Chair: So it is not about a whole area, then? certain time and a certain day, and inform the parents We cannot go and say, “Lambeth is brilliant, go to and whoever needs to get that contact. They will Lambeth”? possibly inform the school, and there will be that Joanna Sharpen: There are good boroughs, and good contact during that session. I suppose what my local areas around the country, but it really depends colleague is talking about is who supervises it. If it is on the people within those areas taking that issue supervised contact, and there is a qualified social forward and being a champion for it. We offer a range worker available, then it is the social worker’s duty to of courses for all sorts of professionals. I train on a do that and take notes, etc. Sometimes that is not master’s course for social workers. I get one hour to available and you ask a family support worker or an talk to them about domestic violence; that is all they unqualified worker. In the example she has given, it get, and over 70% of their cases will be around child could perhaps be anyone in the centre who is happy protection to do with domestic violence. to supervise that contact. What I can add to that is that some of these contacts Q285 Neil Carmichael: Colin, you have been have been very difficult in our experience, when the thinking in terms of the professionals and their conversation has gone into a very local dialect of suspicions, and whether their suspicions should lead Africa. The contact supervisor is sitting there and to an investigation. How do you see that unfolding? hearing it, but does not understand it. An hour later, Colin Walker: I acknowledge that it is a tricky the child bursts into tears. It has been an hour of situation, because it asks social workers to do something that was very uncomfortable, but there was something quite different from what they are used to perhaps a lack of ability to notice the body language— doing. They normally rely on a paper trail—a range I am not sure. In cases like that, for example, we of evidence about potential child abuse provided by would say we really need to look at contact. Is it fit other adults and support networks in contact with that for purpose? Who needs to be there to take the notes child. Those could be families, parents, police or make the judgment, etc.? We have used family officials, etc. However, in the case of a child victim centres and Sure Start. of trafficking, those paper trails do not exist. There Damian Hinds: I have no further questions, but there are none of the various adults and people in positions is a question for Committee staff, or possibly one of of authority who provide us with support who have our witnesses. Do we have the age profile of child had contact with that child. The child essentially turns trafficking victims? If not, is it possible, either through up. If there are any adults in contact with that child, Colin or some other source, to get hold of it? in all likelihood those adults are people who are Chair: That will go on the record. Thank you, complicit in the trafficking of that child. The child Damian. We have very limited time—in fact we have needs to be separated from them immediately. exhausted our time. Therefore, when making a decision about whether or not to refer the child to the National Referral Q282 Neil Carmichael: So I see. We will be swift Mechanism and to take those urgent steps to ensure and straight to the point. I would like to know about that the child is provided with the support that they cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 50 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker require, all the social worker has are the signs that Q288 Craig Whittaker: I cannot remember who may be provided by that child, often unwittingly. To mentioned it earlier, but we talked about having a reiterate the point I made earlier, that is essential, reciprocal agreement to take these vulnerable children because a child has to be provided with support away to other areas. In the case of witchcraft, for immediately. example, with it being small numbers, if you have a The only way that a social worker can do that is to reciprocal agreement with, say, Bradford, which also have the training, so that they know what to look for, has that, then surely you are talking about the same and so that they have the confidence with which to people being involved. I think, Colin, you suggested back their decision. We fear that, at the moment, guardianship; would that not be a better way forward? because of a lack of training among police officers and Colin Walker: Two things. Yes, you are quite right: social workers, rather than a proactive stance, saying, there is no point moving a child into safe “This child is demonstrating some signs that they may accommodation in an area with the same culture, have been trafficked; we need to act and intervene,” because it is very likely the traffickers may well have there is a reluctance and a desire to wait until they links in that community, and therefore you are not have more concrete evidence—until the child has breaking the cycle. Guardianship is one of our key disclosed. A child is unlikely in many cases to causes as an organisation. We think that all child disclose for a long, long time, and by then it may well victims of trafficking should have access to a single be too late. The child may have disappeared and be guardian, for a number of reasons. One, it is that one subject to further abuse. person with whom they can form a strong bond of trust. That takes a long time for a child who comes to this country, and eventually that will be key to helping Q286 Neil Carmichael: I have one last question. that child disclose their experiences, come to terms Having listened to that, what would be your thoughts with them, get support for them, and move on to a on Professor Munro’s approach towards judgment? new life. Colin Walker: Again, I think a lot of emphasis needs to be placed on the ability of a social worker to make Q289 Craig Whittaker: Does anybody have a judgments based on the evidence they require. To different view from that? reiterate the point, that requires training. That training Joanna Sharpen: All children need a single point of can come in two ways. First, the training, in the longer access, a trusted adult with whom to speak, to stand term, can be provided by all social work courses, and up for them, and to advocate for them. Under the I think there is something there for the newly formed current system, they do not have that. College of Social Workers to look at. Also, in the Kathy Rowe: Absolutely. shorter term, training is provided by organisations like Colin Walker: The Government is refusing to ECPAT, and I am sure many here, and others involved introduce this system, despite the fact that the in this sector. We have a training centre here in incoming EU directive on preventing trafficking London. We know that it is very highly thought of by compels them to do so. They believe that the current many agencies who are involved in it, but very few structures are sufficient. We say absolutely not. The Government agencies are taking advantage of it. We child has contact with a wide range of different would like to see them do a little more to take people, and that constant requirement to disclose their advantage of that, because at the moment they are experiences is a form of abuse in itself. That needs to very reliant on us; they are not developing their own be broken, and we need that one person who has knowledge base. parental responsibility. A child victim of trafficking has no one in this country who has parental Q287 Neil Carmichael: Kathy? responsibility for them. A child has to instruct their Chair: You will have to be very quick. own solicitors when it comes to proceedings about Kathy Rowe: I will be very quick, but I feel fairly their immigration status, or when it comes to passionate about this. proceedings about prosecuting the people who Neil Carmichael: I sensed that. trafficked them. That is unacceptable and we need that Kathy Rowe: I have seen an erosion of the value one person to provide that support. placed on professional judgment over the years. I absolutely support what Professor Munro is saying. I Q290 Chair: We end on unanimity, I think. Prospera, think training has to be ongoing. However, I am struck do you agree with that? by something Mr Stuart said. The problem with Prospera Tedam: Yes, I do. May I say one thing about serious case reviews has been that we are all exhorted the forthcoming Olympics? I came across a website to learn from what went wrong and from bad practice. advertising, openly, in two African countries for I would like to see a system where we learn from best anyone who wants to travel to the Olympics: “See us, practice. I do not know any other profession, or any bring this back; you have to be at least 16.” It is just other expertise, where you learn from what went a word of caution, in terms of what is being put in wrong. You learn from what goes well, and if we can place to prevent all the things that we have talked shift that balance, we will increase public confidence, about happening in 2012 during the Olympics, in because the press and others have really eroded terms of people coming in from various parts of the confidence. world. Some will come under the guise of the Chair: Thank you. We have time for one last Olympics but clearly for other reasons. I do not know question, only one. if that is important. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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30 November 2011 Joanna Sharpen, Prospera Tedam, Kathy Rowe and Colin Walker
Q291 Chair: I think the suggestion was that the Damian Hinds: What about Nadia Comneci or Olga Olympics would be used as a cover. Korbut? Weren’t they 14 when they won gold medals? Prospera Tedam: For some. Chair: Can we stick to questions? If you have any more thoughts on that, we would very much welcome Q292 Damian Hinds: You have to be 16 to any note from you on that and we can consider it. participate in the Olympics? Prospera Tedam: Yes, okay. Prospera Tedam: It is what the advert says on the Chair: Thank you very much for coming this internet. morning.
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Judith Dennis, Policy Manager, Refugee Council, Andy McCullough, Head of Policy and Public Affairs, Railway Children, Christine Lenehan, Director, Council for Disabled Children, and Mark Johnson, Founder, User Voice, gave evidence.
Q293 Chair: Welcome, and thank you for coming to Q294 Craig Whittaker: First of all, Chair, can I give evidence to us this morning as we look into the declare an interest? My daughter Sophie, who works child protection system. For those of you who were at the Kuleana Street Children’s Centre in Mwanza in not here for the last panel, I will just say that what we Tanzania, has two integration workers funded by do is conduct inquiries in this Committee. We take Andy’s charity, Railway Children. I just need to written and verbal evidence. We then write a report declare that interest. To move on, can I ask: what with recommendations to Government, to which they kinds of abuse are the children you work with most are obliged to respond. That is very much the business vulnerable to? Mark? end of what we do. Recommendations to improve the Mark Johnson: I am the founder of User Voice, a situation or recommendations to assert the importance charity that works with kids and adults in the criminal of things that currently are in place are very much what we are about, in order to make a practical justice system. Basically the three types of abuse are difference to child protection within the country. I obviously physical, sexual and emotional abuse. It is hope you will bear that in mind in talking to us today. extremely common for the majority of young people Is child sexual exploitation, as described by in the system to have experienced some form of that Barnardo’s, “the most pressing and hidden child in their childhood. The severe reaction to trauma and protection issue in this country”? not being assessed properly at a very young age is Andy McCullough: Is it okay if I start? often the reason that people are in the justice system Chair: Yes, go ahead, Andy. in the first place. The first diagnosis of it is through Andy McCullough: I think it is one of the many, but behaviour, and if that is not assessed properly, people the issue that lies behind that is usually children who can look like they are angry or panicky, and then enter run away and go missing. If we look at the recent the criminal justice system. There is a well report by CEOP, when they did their thematic review, documented route from abuse and neglect to school they talked about reviewing 1,014 of those cases; 842 exclusion to the criminal justice system. That is very of those children went missing. Although child well documented. exploitation is there, if we focus entirely on that, we Craig Whittaker: Very strongly. Judith? will miss out on children who go missing and get Judith Dennis: I would refer to the kinds of involved in drugs and various other things that impact exploitation that the children we come across are on their safeguarding. As the previous panel said, it is one of the areas that experiencing: labour exploitation, including working social workers in particular, and people in the care in the sex industry, and working in the cannabis profession, feel very nervous about tackling. I think industry, as the colleague from ECPAT referred to they feel overwhelmed sometimes, and earlier. It is also that exploitation by adults who are under-resourced. I guess we will cover that as we go meant to be caring for them, whether that is private through. fostering or children who are living with traffickers, Judith Dennis: I think it is a difficult one to answer, or children who are living with family members, and because I think it is about the risk that children are they are not in touch with any of the agencies that put into potential abuse. One of the difficulties we might pick up on that kind of abuse. have when looking at the groups we are looking at now is it is about potential abuse a lot of the time. It Q295 Craig Whittaker: Is that a big problem? You is about an adult having power over them, whether mentioned that children are abused in private that is because they have insecure immigration status, or because they are acting as their legal representative fostering. Is that what you said? when actually they are not a suitable person to be Judith Dennis: I do not know the extent of the doing so. It is about having that power and hold over problem, but yes, it is a concern of the agencies that them, which could involve them exploiting them for I am representing here today. Private fostering, work. Of course there are children exploited for particularly where it is not being overseen by a local domestic slavery and other forms of labour as well as authority social worker, can be somewhere where sexual exploitation. children are abused. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 52 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson
Q296 Craig Whittaker: Are the figures the same in relation to the abuse of disabled children is the fact fostering generally, or is it specific to private that it is consistently hidden, under-reported and fostering? under-challenged. Judith Dennis: There are some concerns about Andy McCullough: In terms of the driving factors for placements that have been set up by the local the children at risk on the streets that Railway authority, in terms of children being at risk. For Children engage with, I will share some statistics with instance, we come across children who do not know you and the panel. Recent research found that about where they live. They do not know the address or the 100,000 children and young people under the age of name of their carer. They just go to the house and the 18 run away every year. 84,000 of those are in the person cares for them. Or indeed they have no carer; UK. In my conversations with ACPO and various they are placed in situations where other people could organisations, they say how massively underestimated come and exploit them. There are particular concerns that number is. Family conflict tends to be one of the around children in private fostering arrangements biggest issues. when the local authority is not supporting them. Q302 Chair: Go back to the 84,000; I did not Q297 Craig Whittaker: I understand what you are understand. saying, but our job is to determine how big a risk that Andy McCullough: 84,000 children under the age of is. Does anybody know what percentage that might sixteen will run away every year. That is the be? Do we have any figures? estimation from recent research done by The Judith Dennis: It is not seen as part of fostering. It is Children’s Society within England. seen as a separate issue, because it is not an arrangement that has been made by the local authority, Q303 Chair: England, sorry. I think you said UK so the local authority has a duty to oversee the when you meant England. That is why I did not placement where it is informed. I do not know the understand. extent of it. Andy McCullough: Yes, 84,000 is the English cohort. Within that, the stories you hear are particularly about Q298 Craig Whittaker: Sorry, Judith, I am domestic violence, and also violence on the streets. struggling to understand this. My understanding is that Two thirds of children who have run away will even private fostering is facilitated through the local experience violence on the streets. Again, that is authority anyway, so they would do placement. Is that massively underestimated. There are particular groups not the case? within this who are very vulnerable. I do not know Judith Dennis: No. For instance, if the parent or usual whether that is the question you want to go on to next carer is unable to look after their own child for a while, they might make a private arrangement with anyway. I am looking at you, Graham. another adult. Chair: We tend to go with the flow. Andy McCullough: I will carry on. Q299 Craig Whittaker: So kinship care in a lot of Chair: Go with the flow, Andy, and I will apologise cases, with friends? later to the person whose area is covered. Judith Dennis: Yes, sometimes with friends, Andy McCullough: This is about early identification sometimes with other people from their community. as much as anything else. There are particular groups that are vulnerable to ending up on the streets in the Q300 Craig Whittaker: Not official fostering, then. UK. Particularly highly represented in the statistics, Fostering is probably the wrong word to use, then. and in our experience from projects, are children Judith Dennis: Private fostering is the term that is whose families have experienced domestic violence, given to it, and certainly there are bits of legislation which seems to be a common theme. There are that have attempted to make better arrangements to children and young people in the care system, and as govern those, but it does rely on somebody informing an ex-care person myself—if you can ever be an the local authority that those arrangements exist. ex-care person—I spent most of my time going missing and not being where I should be. Children in Q301 Craig Whittaker: Okay. Fine. Christine? care are lower in their numbers, because there are Christine Lenehan: I think it is interesting with fewer young people living in care than in disabled children; all the evidence says that disabled communities, but they run away more often, and often children are abused more than non-disabled children put themselves at significant risk. across the board, and that the more disabled a child Reconstituted families, and families where divorce, is, the more likely they are to be abused. The biggest single parenthood or social housing are issues, are single challenge we have about that is that people do families under immense pressure. If the parent or not believe that disabled children are abused, because parents are under pressure, those children will be why would they? Yet all the evidence we have shows under pressure too. However, I would also like people that the rates are very high. to bear in mind that we come across young people There are specific types of abuse that are linked with who are from reasonably well-off families who are particular impairments. You are more likely to be still under a lot of pressure, particularly in this sexually abused if you are multiply impaired. You are economic climate, and children from Asian families more likely to be physically abused if you are a child who feel under particular pressure to get certain who has autism or behavioural difficulties, for qualifications. It cuts across the board, which is why example. However, the biggest challenge we have in I was really pleased that the Education Select cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 53
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson
Committee chose children at risk on the streets to be that it is their responsibility not just to safeguard those one of the vulnerable groups you wanted to look into. children but to proactively look for the signs that you have all been talking about. Q304 Craig Whittaker: There are 100,000 on the Mark Johnson: I can speak from the criminal justice streets in the UK. You mentioned many of those perspective. What I would say is that, because of the becoming homeless on a more permanent basis. What siloed approach that we have with children, we miss about becoming involved in the criminal justice it, especially with criminal justice the way it is today. system? You mentioned drugs, you mentioned abuse At 10 years old, the court says that people commit on the streets, but how many end up physically in the crime out of the moral choice to do so, but when you criminal justice system? have issues like abuse and the chaotic surroundings in Andy McCullough: It is a really good question. The which young people and children live, I would young people whom we are talking about are question whether they have the moral pillars to make over-represented in a number of different systems—in those decisions. It is not factored into the justice the A and E departments, and in mental health system. facilities. On drugs and alcohol, if we look at the Where you have youth justice practitioners, they are research carried out in 2009—I think you had a copy educated from a public protection perspective, and not sent to you—called Off the Radar, 100% of those on social work skills. There is a skills deficit young people who ended up on the streets for four throughout the justice system, whether that is children, weeks or longer were using heavy drugs and alcohol. youth, or adults, on specialist skills and assessment: We are talking about people under the age of 16. Some PTSD, personality disorders, and that kind of research was done by a number of organisations; Off assessment. From the police to the courts to the the Radar identified that a majority of those young system, they are lacking skills in those areas. people ended up in the prison system or saw that as their linkage into that. We did some retrospective Q307 Lisa Nandy: Do your organisations work interviews during that study. together to try to bridge that gap? I am just wondering Sorry, I am just looking through my statistics as we if there is a model in the voluntary sector that we speak. There are also a number of pieces of research could recommend the Government to follow, or by Centre Point and others highlighting that about whether the voluntary sector needs to get its act 80% of the people they interviewed had run away as together as well, to try to break down those barriers. a child, or that had been their way into crime. We Mark Johnson: You have the survival of the youth began this session, when I was asked to come along, justice system, which is better than nothing. There is talking about homeless youth, but if you are under 16, you cannot be homeless; there needs to be someone a significant difference in treatment for children and with parental responsibility. You have no legitimate young people to post-17. However, there needs to be income, you cannot claim, you cannot get housing. If more. The law comes down as saying that it is a public you are unable to go back home, you are forced into protection perspective, and not a social work or a a number of different arenas, including survival health issue for children, and that has not happened crime—I know from my experience in some Northern yet. towns that includes running drugs across town and, Judith Dennis: I think it does to a certain extent. sadly, sexual exploitation. Certainly in the Refugee Children’s Consortium, on whose behalf I am here today, we work across the Q305 Craig Whittaker: So quite a high proportion children and refugee sectors. There is a lot of of those children? crossover and a lot of learning from each other, and Andy McCullough: Absolutely. From my own using expertise. It can happen. We work quite well experience of working in Bolton prison, a number of with the police. In lots of ways, the police have years ago, every single person that I spoke to within become much better at identifying trafficked Bolton prison with regard to drug rehabilitation had a children—say, in raids—and referring them on to us. history of going missing and running as the way they We might also work with ACPO, but there may well became disconnected from either parental guidance or then be lots of people in the police force who miss the school system. that. Similarly, we work really closely with the UK Border Agency. There are some individuals who are Q306 Lisa Nandy: Before I ask my question, I very attuned to the issues, who understand the should just put on record that my partner receives different roles that different agencies play, and will some payment for media support for the Railway sometimes ring us at the Refugee Council to talk to Children, although that is in no way going to influence us about a child about something. It is just not how hard a time I give you all. I wanted to pick up universal. It is very patchy. on this question of labels in response to some of the Also, we have to recognise that different organisations answers you have given to Craig. I heard mention of and different agencies do have a different remit. The homeless young people, runaways, children involved Border Agency has really struggled with this idea that in the criminal justice system, and refugee and it has a safeguarding duty. It says that it has a migrant children. Surely there is quite a lot of overlap safeguarding duty; it is there in law; it puts it in the between the children you are all working with. It instructions, but at the same time it wants to reassure makes me wonder whether the issue for us is how we everybody who works for it, “Don’t worry, you do not make sure that the many and varied systems that they really have to do anything different.” There is some come into contact with on a regular basis recognise mixed messaging going on around what your core cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 54 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson duty is, and what your duty is to refer. There is some disabilities and whatever is well over 50% now. It is tension in there. that lack of recognition about children’s disabilities that puts them in places that exclude them from Q308 Craig Whittaker: Judith, just picking up on society, whether that is in terms of criminal justice, what you said, the Refugee Children’s Consortium mental health, or whatever. says that refugee children are often seen as migrants There is a fundamental challenge with disabled first, rather than children. You obviously argue that children in relation to recognition. Beyond that, I used puts them at serious risk. Do you want to expand on to have very experienced social workers ring me up that? to say, “But Christine, the child is disabled; what do I Judith Dennis: Some of this is reality; for instance, do?’ I would say: “You do what you do.” It is the there is the regulation that allows people in the asylum ability to take those children through the system, and system to be transferred to another European country. the ability of the criminal justice system to recognise We often call it the Dublin regulation. That is an that those children have rights and needs. I once had administrative tool to share out the consideration of a solicitor say to me, “Yes, but this child is disabled; asylum claims across Europe. Children are affected by surely it cannot be damaged further.” Children with that. There is a concession around separated children; disabilities are impaired, they are not stupid. They still they have to have applied for asylum. However, it have emotional needs. Some of the stuff that we see does not take a child-first approach. It just does not. is fairly horrific, because of the lack of value of these The rules do not. It is an administrative tool for children as human beings. member states and Governments. It does not take a child-first approach. There are policies and rules that Q311 Neil Carmichael: What about the question of see children as migrants first. early identification of children who might be heading I think there is also a perception a lot of the time. in the wrong direction? Do you have any thoughts on For instance, we have the situation that lots of social that? Andy? workers believe they cannot care for a separated, Andy McCullough: Sure, particularly about children unaccompanied child with insecure immigration status at risk on the streets. I think that there are the groups until they have claimed asylum. That is ludicrous. I mentioned earlier on whom we particularly need to Why would any social worker think that? You are target resources, in terms of prevention. However, caring for them as a child in need. That is your role given that we are here with the Education Select as a social worker, and you have a statutory duty to Committee. I think schools have a vital role in do that. There is nothing in law, of course, that means identifying those children, or at least spending time that is the case. It is wrong, but it is a really strong with children looking at issues of running away, going perception, and underlined by quite senior staff missing, some of the dangers, and looking at the sometimes in local authorities. support networks. There are some good examples across the country. Currently CEOP are putting Q309 Craig Whittaker: How does it affect them? together work and are very successful at looking at What risk does it put them at? internet safety with children, and are looking at a Judith Dennis: It puts them at risk of exploitation by training programme on similar lines for children. You somebody who then says, “I will care for you. I will have corporates that get involved. You have Aviva, a look after you. Come home with me.” Or it means corporate organisation and insurance company, using that they are frequently homeless, or on the streets, or its volunteer programme to get volunteers out there to have to go and seek the protection of somebody talk about stranger danger and all those things around unsuitable. its prevention programme. However, schools are often not a place where many Q310 Craig Whittaker: Christine, the National of the young people who end up going missing have Working Group on Child Protection and Disability in been recently. They will have dropped out of school. 2003 reported that the child protection system failed They may well be within pupil referral, or sadly, in disabled children in many ways, including through a the case of many children in the care system, they do culture of disbelief about the abuse of disabled not feel that school is very relevant to them, and our children. Has anything changed since 2003? aspirations are not very high for them. We need to Christine Lenehan: Not really. The change we are target some of those pupil referral units, and others. after is cultural. If you do not believe disabled If I could just cross-reference it to a previous question, children are abused, then you do not tackle it. We I think labels are really useful sometimes, but they have had some better practice in relation to a greater also keep us apart. I am struck that I have never sat understanding of how to work with children with in a meeting with any of these guys yet. The children communication impairments, and some better practice and young people whom we work with would end up in relation to short breaks and the understanding that here, and I think often with children who end up at disabled children are citizens too. They are not totally risk on the streets or running away and homeless, their defined by their impairments. However, we still get a behaviour is what is focused on, rather than what consistent lack of recognition of the level of abuse caused that behaviour. that disabled children suffer, both from institutional We have the secure estate in this country, and children hands and in relation to individual circumstances. For can enter it in two different ways: through the welfare example, if you go back to criminal justice, we have route, when a child is a danger to themselves and just been working with the Children’s Commissioner. others, or the criminal justice route. Many children The figure for children in YOIs with learning involved in sexual exploitation or who have a history cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
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30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson of running away may end up in the secure route facilitate a better opportunity for them to express because there are no systems there to deal with some themselves? of the traumas and issues that are going on for them. Christine Lenehan: I have had the real pleasure of We know children who talk about feeling doubly working with children with disabilities for a long time, punished: “I have done nothing wrong. I have done and I have never met a disabled child who did not nothing illegal, but I am being locked away.” communicate. I have met a lot of disabled children who communicate in unique ways. We have spent a Q312 Neil Carmichael: You are absolutely right to lot of time over the past 10 to 15 years building a think in terms of the causes. What are the signals that lot of communication materials. There really is not a we should be looking out for at an early stage? problem with communication if people understand Mark Johnson: Behaviour is a leading factor of that communication is important. We have done a lot identification. That may be an inability to engage in of work in schools about how you communicate with learning—offenders have a very low reading age, as a children with SEN and learning disabilities. We have whole, whether that is in the adult estate or in even done a lot of work with children who use children’s centres. There is also the absence of augmented communication or only communicate sufficient understanding of the social and emotional through body language and gesture. needs of the child. The response is to exclude and pass Fairly regularly, in the system, we are asked to the problem on, rather than identify and work with it, produce a resource list on communication tools and if that was an answer. supported communications. The last one was produced for Government less than two years ago. Q313 Neil Carmichael: Thank you. For the children The materials are out there. The issue is whether you think communication is important, and when children with whom you are working, what kind of communicate with you, do you believe what they are interventions do you think would have been useful to telling you? For disabled children, the easiest thing is stop them getting to the point they have got to? always to say, “But these children do not Christine Lenehan: For some of ours, some of it is communicate.” That is just not true. about where the low-level stuff starts off, in which you can intervene. Some research is about to come out from the University of Cambridge, called Q316 Neil Carmichael: So really it is a question of Everybody Here Will Be Bullied. It is about the encouraging the listener to listen more carefully and be much more proactive in understanding. bullying of children with SEN and disabilities. The stats are terrifying: 83% of children with learning Christine Lenehan: Yes. difficulties now report being bullied in school. There Mark Johnson: Talking therapies are by far the best is something that is common across the board, in mechanism to work within this group, but it does need terms of abuse and neglect, and it is about low specialist support, like clinical psychologists to do the self-esteem. The thing I can do most for children in assessment correctly, or in some cases medication as well, and the right kind. A large proportion of the system is to give them confidence in the system locked-up children have ADHD, or they are on a around us. There is something about how we ensure certain amount of chemicals that have been prescribed that children, whatever the position they are in, are to them, which are not necessarily the right ones. supported in their esteem—they are made to feel good There needs to be a very thorough clinical view. about themselves, they do not become victims, etc. Group therapy, one-to-one counselling, clinical The other thing for our world is about recognising that psychologists—there is a range of different methods a child is not their label. There is something about to be used. labels that Lisa has talked about, but it is also, for our Andy McCullough: We work globally with what world, about people forever saying, “Well, this child might be termed street children, so we have gathered would do that,” because they have a label that says from all different countries, as well as our own, what they are autistic or have cerebral palsy. works for children at risk on the streets. Am I able to give you a paper, so that you can refer to a page that Q314 Chair: What about the interventions, which has the actual model of a project that I want to was Neil’s question? explain, or would you prefer to have that afterwards? Christine Lenehan: The interventions are about Chair: Afterwards, I think. listening to what the child has to say. The biggest Andy McCullough: Right. What we found is that you single one is that you listen and validate what children cannot just do prevention. You need to work with have to tell you. The second interventions are about children before, during and after instances of running what you do to raise self-esteem, and what you do away and going missing. We have a great example of about analysing how dangerous the situation is that a a project called Safe at Last over in South Yorkshire, child is in. What we have found with disabled children which has a number of different ways that young is that often abuse has gone on for a long time before people can engage around the issue at different times, anyone intervenes, because the early signals are not because you will need different services at different read because people are not checking. times if you are going to run away or go missing. The project has a phone line, a text line and internet Q315 Neil Carmichael: You mentioned in your access, because young people use that quite well. It answer the problem of children with learning also has a number of other things. It has a safe house disabilities. Obviously it will sometimes be difficult for children who, it has assessed, cannot return home for them to communicate. What do we need to do to under the terms of the refuge Act. It has work within cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 56 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson schools, and links in with pastoral care workers. They Within the primary school environment, any primary have a pivotal role, because young people tend not to school teacher who is half-decent will be able to trust authority figures. They tend to trust the voluntary identify these kids very early on. Instead of putting sector and people who are just outside that. them in the excluded group, and labelling them from It also has a number of other things, including a that age, we need to provide a different mechanism “missing from home” scheme. Once a child returns to work with them, on an emotional-based learning home, who will engage with that family? Often the education rather than academic-based learning. It is social care system is not robust enough to do that, and how we think and how we act about the things that does not have the resources. It is about going in and have happened to us that basically causes this spending time with children and families. What they isolation with this group of people, who basically clog have found is that by providing all those different up the system lifelong in a lot of cases. things, including detached work on the streets, young people who do not engage with the phone line, and Q319 Chair: You think we need a new approach to are not very good at engaging with things such as the children suffering from abuse or stress, and the sort of “missing persons” scheme, might engage with pedagogy around that, recognising that their needs and somebody who is working on the streets. the ability to access learning are different? Mark Johnson: Yes, absolutely. Keeping children out Q317 Chair: Can you show evidence that, where you of the justice system is crucial. Once they are in it, get the right package of measures in place, you can not only do they cost society a lot, but they are more actually reduce the number of children who do run predisposed either to spending life in there, to dying, away? or to being subjected to sexual exploitation. It is Andy McCullough: Yes, there is evidence, and I will costing society a lot of money. If we tackle it right at make sure you get a report on Safe at Last. There are that point and have a different style of learning that a number of other pieces, but Safe at Last works does not stigmatise and isolate, we will definitely have across four areas in South Yorkshire, where the police fewer people entering the system and fewer problems. can demonstrate that they have had a reduction in Chair: Thank you. return runners—repeat runners. I think what is really essential in that REACH model is that not one Q320 Craig Whittaker: The Committee recently organisation has to provide those things. In these went up to Doncaster to a children’s home. One thing times, when there is not a lot of money to go around, it that became very evident there was that the pathways is really important that we bring all the organisations for children getting older, at 16, were quite around the table who have a concern about, in our inadequate. Quite a lot of them seemed to go out at case, children who run away and go missing, so that 16 to independent living with no preparation at all. the police are there to make sure that there is sharing How do you feel about that age group? How of intelligence, and explore things like search, locate vulnerable are they? and find. Judith Dennis: This is a group that we are really concerned about. A majority of the children who apply for asylum are from the older age group—15 to Q318 Chair: There is cross-party consensus in 18-year-olds. There is something about the experience education and also in care about early intervention— of somebody and the way that they present when they trying to get to the root of the problem, and supporting have travelled many, many miles to get to safety. They families, parents and communities to get it right first might have experienced horrific abuse before they left time. Given the finite resources, where in this area their country, such as sexual or physical violence, and should we emphasise? Should we be putting in better fear the authorities. There is some recent documented resources to support the work you do with people report about the experience of children on the journey where it has pretty much gone wrong, or should we here that is quite worrying. I think that can make you put more emphasis in earlier, and do we have evidence appear older than you are. That touches on the issue that that would deliver? Is there a danger that the of age disputes, which of course is of particular focus on early intervention could mean that we concern to this age group. denude the services for those who inevitably are Also, however, I think it can make somebody appear always left behind? Discuss. Mark? superficially more resilient, more robust and more Mark Johnson: Investment in the area of early able to cope with what life has thrown at them. I think intervention has been proven to be more cost-effective there are parallels in other experiences of children: than people clogging up the system later on. Imagine superficially you can appear to be more resilient than yourself to be a young child coming from a chaotic you are. There is a real worry that in these times of background where abuse is occurring; turning up at constrained budgets and limited resources, not enough primary school—if you get there—at 9 o’clock, you in-depth investigation takes place into the real are doing maths and English in a very structured, situation and the real ability of those children to cope, academic-based environment, but you are not either in independent living or with the support they available to learn. You are too busy: your mind is too are receiving. active in the environment that you have come out of. Mark Johnson: My issue would be one year older— School does not cater for emotional-based learning, or the 17 to 18-year-old group in the justice system. add in that time in the morning when you can address They get tracked very differently. That crossover all that, prepare yourself so you are ready to learn, and means that immediately you turn from a child into an deal with the issues outside school; they just exclude. adult overnight. The system changes. There are larger cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 57
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson capacity institutions; a child or young person will be authority suddenly discovers that these children exist used to a secure environment of education and on their 14th birthday, when actually they have always welfare, etc., but suddenly overnight you move into existed in the system. They have always been there. It the big institutions. There is a comparative lack of is the issue of children in children’s homes. We have support; it changes basically overnight. paid out quite a lot of money for these kids. It is not In the education system, for instance, within that age that we do not know they are there. What we do not group, with the EMA allowance going, the last do properly is plan and look at, as you were saying, consultation we did was on how they were in this no the emotional needs of those children. They may well man’s land. If you want to go to college, you lose all be capable of getting on a bus and going to the Post your housing benefits. You are stuck in this position Office. We have a lot of young people who want to from which you cannot move. It is a significant issue. be independent, and what we have been looking at is Andy McCullough: We are particularly concerned for almost “wobbly day” services. It sounds an odd thing. those who are 14, 15 and 16. Often our partners feed If you are having a good day, you can live back that there is resistance to placing a child or independently and you are able to do things. If you managing what is going on for that child, because they are having a bad day, who do you have to turn to? are near their 16th birthday, and they are hoping it Who is the person you go back to and say, “I do not will go over to a different department and become a like this; I do not understand this; I need help on homelessness issue or something along those lines. this”?
Q321 Craig Whittaker: Is that a massive issue? Q324 Chair: What are you suggesting, Christine? Andy McCullough: Absolutely. Christine Lenehan: The issue is about investing in a “wobbly day” service. It sounds mad to talk about Q322 Craig Whittaker: It is talked about, but in investing now, but that is a lot less expensive than the some areas you do not hear about it. In others, expense of a criminal justice system and a place in certainly in London, you do. How big an issue is that? that. It is about having a trusted adult who is available, Andy McCullough: It is, and we have evidence from who takes you through a period of change. our projects, who feed that back. Ofsted recognise in their 2011 Report, Age of Concern, that babies under Q325 Chair: I was about to pick you up on that. I the age of one and older children were the highest was afraid that this “wobbly day” service would be proportion of serious case reviews. As I mentioned another bunch of adults, when this whole issue is earlier, by the time you get to 14 or 15—I talk from about having long-term relationships of trust. my own experience a long time ago, and with other Christine Lenehan: Absolutely. It has to be young people—you have lost trust in the adults something trusted. It could be done on outreach from around you, because you have been let down on a services. The issue is that it has to be an adult that number of occasions. Your behaviour, and how you they trust, and it has to be there. act out that trauma, becomes the focus, rather than what has caused that trauma. That trauma might have Q326 Craig Whittaker: What about this whole happened ages ago. It becomes a management issue: companionship process that was talked about in the “Let us manage this child or young person.” earlier panel? I also think that there is this myth: “They are 16 or Mark Johnson: Mentoring? 17. They are almost an adult. They can deal with it.” Chair: Guardianship. We only have to look at our own experiences and Craig Whittaker: Guardianship. those of our own children to know that they are still Mark Johnson: There are three things that come to just as vulnerable at 16 and 17. mind across all our work, and especially around drug Craig Whittaker: 25, in my case. treatment for children and young people—that is, a Judith Dennis: It is about emotional independence as form of early confinement in the early stages of well as being able to cook yourself a meal and look habilitation. Containing people, and keeping them after yourself. It is about the range, depending on what safe, would promote a better outcome. Relocation has your recent or early background has been. You may proven to have better outcomes as well. What we have never have had that emotional independence— in the system now is that a lot of people are sent back learning about interdependence and not about being to the area because a local authority is responsible for able to look after yourself completely by yourself them. If they go outside that area, nobody owns them while isolated. or is responsible for them. The factors are a form of early confinement, relocation and longevity of Q323 Chair: We are describing a problem. We are support, because the longer the support programme or not coming up with the solution. What do we need to mechanism is, the better the outcome would be. Those change in the system in order to make it less likely three factors are very important. that older teenagers who are extremely vulnerable are not ignored, sidelined and left until they are just about Q327 Chair: Do you agree with Christine about old enough to be shoved in a bedsit by someone else? continuity of structures? You can have supposed Christine Lenehan: There is something about continuity of support, but it is different people. Once planning for them, isn’t there? It is interesting to me you have been let down by enough adults, you do not that the transition for disabled young people from want to trust any more. child to adult is one of those thorny issues that has Mark Johnson: We have siloed this issue. There is a gone on for years. It always shocks me that a local young person, and he has a million and one different cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Ev 58 Education Committee: Evidence
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson silos. These kids who we call excluded, if you speak independent centres where the social workers who are to them, they are the NEETs, the underachievers, the assessing them—and it should very much involve excluded group. They know more acronyms and how social work assessments—are not the ones who would to play the system better than anybody. Their mind is then be responsible for them. That would break the made up of the world of exclusion. They are more relationship with the assessment. I know that is than capable. The reason is that they have been expensive, but believe me, local authorities are paying subjected to adult services. For me, the biggest abuse masses and masses in legal fees going to court to is by the system and the way that we treat them. We defend age assessments that are then overturned. They work in silos rather than see it from that one person. are then sent back to do them again. The same local I agree with what Christine said about that one-stop authority ends up in court. There is lots of money shop; a young person walks in and it is all there, and being spent at the moment on this. it looks like it should look for a child or a young person, not as it does for a professional, siloed Q329 Pat Glass: So we should spend a bit more bureaucrat interested in his own agenda. money on teachers and social workers, and less on lawyers? Q328 Pat Glass: How do we get better at managing Judith Dennis: I do not think it is about spending less these age-related disputes around refugees? Clearly it on lawyers; it is just about not being so defensive is massively risky to have a child who is defined as about defending a decision that you ought to be able an adult, and put in adult services, but equally I to acknowledge you will not always get right, in a worked in a gateway authority where we had lots of system. It is an adversarial system, and I think that if young people whose ages were 1 January, because some of that adversarial nature were taken out of it, it they were defined by the Home Office. I understand might help. why they would do that, because you are not considered for deportation until you are 18 and you Q330 Pat Glass: Quite rightly, today and in other get an education. However, we were putting at risk sessions, we have focused on young people. However, other people’s 14-year-olds by having adult young there are adults who are trafficking these young men and women sitting in classrooms. Clearly there people, who are abusing these young people, who are are risks on both sides, so how do we get better at it? causing them harm. Is there not a danger that, if we We cannot cut them in the middle and count the rings. shift the emphasis from the Home Office to the How do we get better at defining these age-related Department for Education, we might get the disputes? protection better, but there would be fewer Judith Dennis: I think we have to acknowledge that prosecutions and these adults would simply go on to it is difficult—probably impossible—to be precise. I abuse other children? think if we make that our starting point, we then need Judith Dennis: I do not know that there are that many to put safeguards in place. Some local authorities, for prosecutions at the moment. The police are used to instance, have accommodation that is for those 17 and working with social workers. The police and social 18-year-olds, and there is a little bit of a crossover, workers work together on getting evidence that can be and those whose age is not known will be placed used to prosecute child abusers, and I understand that there. that works very well in lots of places. They are The important thing is that they are supervised working together for the social workers to get the placements. That is part of the worry about having evidence that the police can then use. We could follow children placed with adults. Lots of us feel that is a bigger risk because of course you do not supervise some of those models. I do not think it is particularly adult placements. Where you have the initial about having one professional body or one profession accommodation, it is not really supervised. There is having the only contact with these young people. One potentially a greater risk to the ones who are body should take the lead, and then others can come incorrectly identified as children, and of course in and join in. detention is the ultimate unsafe place for a separated child. [Interruption.] Q331 Lisa Nandy: Is not part of the problem with Chair: Excuse me. We will wait until the bell finishes. age assessments that there is some form of Judith Dennis: Training will go a long way—social consequence for everybody involved in how they workers understanding how to use their assessment assess age? If you turn up at the UK Border Agency skills and augment them with specialist information and they decide that you are an adult, they have about the countries the children have come from and responsibility for paying for your support, whereas if the experiences they might have had. This idea that you turn up at social services and they decide that you they behave like adults because they have already are a child, they have responsibility. Should we not be looked after other family members means that they looking at a more independent system so that whoever will present differently. is making the decision does not have a responsibility I worked with a boy who had been a domestic servant for paying for their support? for many years. Of course he could look after himself; Judith Dennis: I think that is definitely worth looking he could look after his house better than I could. That into, even if it was introduced at this stage as a review was not the issue. Emotionally he still needed support, mechanism, so that you could go to somebody else. and once you look into it further, I think you need You end up with lots of pressure on you. We still hear places where young people can be—say, an all the time anecdotally from social workers about assessment centre. We and others have proposed going out to do an age assessment on a child and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o003_th_3 - Corrected (30 Nov 2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 59
30 November 2011 Judith Dennis, Andy McCullough, Christine Lenehan and Mark Johnson being told, either overtly or implicitly, “Make sure laws, have the right to stay here, is not some sort of you do not decide they are under 16.” detention inevitable? If it is inevitable, do you think One of the issues it is important to recognise with age that the Government is striking the right balance? If disputes is that it is not just about whether they are not, where would you consider that line to be? under or over 18. There are now an increasing number Judith Dennis: It is very difficult to see in the current of children whose age is not believed, and they are system how you would not give the Border Agency then assessed to be 16 or 17, which has consequences. some detention powers. There is a difference between Obviously they get fewer years of care and education, using your powers to detain and keep a family safe, and just not being believed, of course, has a great sometimes, before they are forcibly removed and impact. There should be a review mechanism where actually using detention to hold people in while you you can honestly go to another authority or to another are making your arrangements. I know that for some profession and say, “Can you help me?” rather than of the young people held at ports, for instance, it is an it coming at a stage where a young person is trying immigration detention power. We could make those to appeal. circumstances and those holding rooms and the situation in which they are held much better. Q332 Chair: Do you want to come in, Mark? I am not so much worried about the huge numbers; Mark Johnson: I would like to add a self-referral of course the Government has managed to reduce the element to it, as well. Looking at it through a child’s numbers who are going through any detention facility eyes: “If I need help, this is the place that I can go at the end of the asylum process. We know that in and I will not be turned away.” There is a gap between September there were 10 who left the new school exclusion and being picked up by criminal accommodation—The Cedars, a short-term holding justice. The absolutely horrific point for children and facility for families—at the end of the process. Of young people is that you have to get in touch with those 10 children who left in September, seven of criminal justice to be able to access anything—to be them were removed from the country and three were put on the radar. You could go to social services released into the community, either on a temporary within that time, and they would not see you. “Where basis or full time. We are still not getting those do I go with my problems?” We really need that. decisions quite right. Self-referral is absolutely crucial within that. A lot has been done to improve the process. I have met with the new Family Returns Panel, which Q333 Lisa Nandy: I am aware that we are running appears at least to take its safeguarding duties over time, and I wanted to pick up on this question of seriously. I think people are really trying to reduce the immigration detention, which I have seen for myself number of children who go through detention, and the can cause children significant harm. I think there is length of time they are in there, but clearly there needs now an acceptance right across the political spectrum to be more scrutiny of the process itself. It is very that immigration detention is a bad idea, and that in closed. We have the independent Family Returns the past we have got the balance between immigration Panel, but that is right at the end of the process. There control and children’s welfare wrong. What I wanted is no scrutiny along the way by independent bodies of to ask you, Judith, or anyone else who is particularly what is actually happening and how the families’ involved in this, is: if you accept that families will be cases are being dealt with. removed from the UK, that the UK Government has Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for giving a remit to remove people who do not, under current evidence to us today. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
Ev 60 Education Committee: Evidence
Tuesday 13 December 2011
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Alex Cunningham Tessa Munt Pat Glass Craig Whittaker ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Martin Narey, Government Adviser on Adoption and John Hemming MP, Founder and Chairman, Justice for Families, gave evidence.
Q334 Chair: Good morning and welcome to this that expression—sexed up. There is evidence of cases session of the Education Committee, looking into the where the removal of a child seems inexplicable, but child protection system in England. We like to deal I am quite clear, from my experience at Barnardo’s with people informally here, so if you are both happy and as I have been studying adoption pretty much full for us to use your first names, highly distinguished time since January, that overwhelmingly, certainly pair that you are, that would be good. Can I start by until very recently, the pressures on social workers asking you about breakdowns in adoptions? have been the reverse. All the research we have—I Tomorrow night the BBC is screening a Panorama could offer the Committee a number of references— special, “The Truth About Adoption”. From your indicates an optimism in the system that somehow a experience, can you tell us why you think adoptions family will fix themselves. I think you had a very break down? Martin, can I begin with you? good submission from Professor Nina Biehal that Martin Narey: The first thing to say is there urgently summarised the position about care. It talked about needs to be some more comprehensive research about the delay before intervening to remove a child and the adoption breakdown because we known too little damage that causes. My view is overwhelmingly that about it. From looking at what research there is, which social workers have traditionally been gripped by a I have done in some detail, my view is that the rate sense of optimism and a hope and a belief that of breakdown is often exaggerated. It is frequently somehow families will improve and that children do quoted in a number of sources as being as high as 20% not need to be removed. During that process, children or 30%. Overall, my estimate of adoption breakdown are damaged. would be nearer to 10%. In some research by Rushton John Hemming: Unsurprisingly, I agree very much into the breakdown of adoptions of children aged five with the excellent work by Ted Jeory of the Sunday to 11, who were very challenging indeed, adoption Express, who spoke to a whistleblower who I think is breakdown to their 14th birthday was only 23%. willing to speak to the Committee and whom I have Adoption breakdown is about 10%. The key for the written to you about. He is not the only whistleblower Committee’s consideration is that adoption breakdown who has spoken to me, but obviously you would for children who are adopted quickly, before their first expect people who are upset with the system to birthday, is probably about 2% or 3%. contact Justice for Families and those who think the John Hemming: One point the Committee should system has got it right not to contact Justice for recognise is the Government has a very good data set, Families. So I can only talk about those where the called SSDA903, which is an annual return from the system has gone wrong. I do think it is worth going councils, and it would be quite easy for the through the details of how care proceedings operate, Government to change the specification of this so that because often when you look at issues like the whenever a child returns to care through a disrupted threshold, it ignores the difference between Section 38 adoption—many of which are from reactive and Section 31. I did provide some background papers attachment disorders—that would be tracked so that to look at some aspects of the assessment process. If you could identify precisely when this has happened. there was better scrutiny of those processes, silly I recently asked the Government to do this and they reasons for taking children into care would not be refused. It is actually quite a simple thing to do, accepted. It is quite clear that a number of children although it would take a while to have some effect. It are wrongly taken into care. That then frequently leads may be a worthwhile recommendation for the to the adoption of those children. That is quite clearly Committee to consider. the case, but exactly what proportion of cases go wrong that way I cannot assess, because I will only Q335 Chair: An article in the Daily Express—not see the ones that are bad, basically. often mentioned in this Committee—yesterday, suggested that social workers are sexing up dossiers Q336 Chair: Whatever the proportion, one needs to on problem parents in order to remove children into have suitable systems in place in order to stop the care. Is this a real concern or just press hysteria? inexplicably unfair happening. Martin Narey: Mr Hemming and I would appear to John Hemming: Exactly. The checks and balances disagree on a lot of things about this. There are some fail and that is the problem. things on which we might agree and Mr Hemming might be surprised at that. I think it is entirely possible Q337 Pat Glass: In care proceedings there does that occasionally there are cases which are—to use appear to be something of a pendulum effect. After cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP
Cleveland, it appeared to swing away from state to in a manner that undermines their self esteem, that intervention and towards non-intervention with then creates a situation where there is managerial parents. Then from 2008, the numbers have risen pressure not to take other children into care, such as dramatically. Is that purely down to the Baby P effect? Peter Connolly. In my submission, I went through all John Hemming: One thing we should learn from all the financial documents from Haringey and found the of this is whatever jobs you have in society have to statements from the various managers and the various be doable by real human beings. To go after social roles, which indicated how they were trying to control workers when some evil parents kill their children is, the number of children in care. Not co-operating with in my view, a wrongful strategy, because it creates a professionals is another reason that is used. If you defensive environment where everyone is frightened accept that is a valid threshold then, because there is to do anything that may deem them to be making a a limit on the number of children into care, you mistake. Whereas there is effectively no criticism for squeeze out the Peter Connollys. I picked the taking a child wrongly into care, there is a sort of Haringey one because it was Haringey and because witch hunt that goes on when people make a mistake. those children were in care there at the time that Peter I do think that it was quite clear from the 60 visits Connolly should have been taken into care. that there was something going wrong with the Khyra Ishaq case in Birmingham. There was a systemic Q339 Pat Glass: I do not know the case in Haringey, problem there, in that case with the educational but I have been involved in cases where care welfare organisation. However, we need to make sure proceedings have resulted from parents not co- that the jobs we have in society are doable ones, not operating, but that is the final straw; there are many, ones which go after people, create a defensive culture many concerns leading up to that and the care and a culture in which one social worker in proceedings only come when everything else has been Birmingham said to me that he was pleased to get out tried, which is, in my view, too late. That is not the of child protection because there is no hope. Once the reason; it is the myriad neglect and so on that goes system starts going, it grinds and grinds and grinds beforehand, surely. until the child has gone into care and most likely been John Hemming: Yes. I think the difficulty is that adopted, for younger children, anyway. there is lots of different practice. As I explained, if Martin Narey: There had been a recent rise in the you have a limit on the number of children taken into number of children in care. There was a similar rise care and if you are allowing some practitioners to take after the Victoria Climbié disaster, as there was after children into care for really low threshold reasons— Cleveland. On both those previous occasions the and I think being spoken to in a manner that numbers slid back somewhat. There has not been a undermines your self-esteem is a really low level of sliding back after the death of Baby Peter and I think threshold, and I would assume you would agree with that reflects a wider recognition about children living me about that—then once you have filled care up and in neglect. I think we need to put recent concern about you have hit the budgetary limits, the difficulty is that the number of children in care into some relative or when somebody wants to take another child into care, recent historical perspective. There is a lot of anxiety managerial gateways come into operation. One of the at the moment about a children-in-care population of difficulties with the care system is that it is in fact a about 65,000 or 66,000, but as recently as 1981 the lot more complex than it is represented, as you know children-in-care population was 92,000. Interestingly, from your experience. For example, section 38 of the about 60,000 of those were living in children’s homes. Children’s Act on interim care orders allows a child Relatively speaking, the number of children in care to be taken into care if there is a belief, not necessarily we have right now is about a third lower than in the that there is evidence. The interim care order threshold 1980s. is much lower than the final care order threshold, and frequently during care proceedings the threshold Q338 Pat Glass: Mr Hemming, you said that “the changes from the start of the proceedings to the end current system has low thresholds”. I have to say, after of the proceeding. working with children for about 25 years, I disagree Now, we have the wider question of The Lancet report with you. I think the thresholds are far too high. But from Friday, produced by Ruth Gilbert, which is a if that is the case—and you have said that they are very important issue—whether the way in which we taking the wrong children into care—which children operate child protection is good for children in the are we failing to take into care and what evidence do sense of protecting children from abuse in the wider you have that children are taken into care incorrectly? sense. One of the things that is frequently missed is John Hemming: In the background papers, I gave an that each change of placement is damaging for a child, example from a threshold document in Haringey but that includes the first change of placement. If you where one of the reasons used for taking two children take the Devon/Irish case that I have also got in the into care was being spoken at in a manner that background papers, what the authorities there were undermined their self-esteem. That is in the trying to do was something that was clearly damaging background papers you have got and it is the fourth for the child. The Irish authorities thought that it was item. Speaking as somebody who used to be Deputy wrong for them to do that. The end result was that Leader of Birmingham City Council, who knows how two years later it turns out the Irish assessment was budgetary controls in councils operate, you often have correct and the Devon assessment was wrong. There a limit on the number of children taken into care. If is no question about it: there are good practitioners. I things get tight, it becomes one in, one out. If you cannot say what proportion are good and bad. But the have children in care because they have been spoken checks and balances do not operate, so you get cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
Ev 62 Education Committee: Evidence
13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP children in care who should not be in care and then care or get them adopted, in which circumstances they the budgetary limits apply. would have done much better in life. Martin Narey: I mentioned that there may be John Hemming: A research document was published occasional rogue cases but in the years in which I in The Lancet on Friday called “Child maltreatment: have been involved in this—nearly six years at variation in trends and policies in six developed Barnardo’s and a year looking at this and doing almost countries”, which contradicts the comments about nothing else—I have never come across such a case. compulsory care proceedings. It cites various things. I have come across countless numbers of cases. I have There is no sense in me going through all the details. met children and parents where I have, by contrast, I have sent a copy to the Committee Clerk. been astonished that we have not intervened and I have been frequently very concerned that there is an Q342 Chair: In what way does it contradict them? acceptance of a good enough sort of care in the home John Hemming: It basically argues that it is known environment when the best thing for the children that there is trauma from taking children into care. would be to intervene. Nor have I ever come across Now, obviously, some children’s circumstances are so an instance where I thought that finance was dictating bad you cannot leave them with the family. Again, the decision. There are real financial implications for this is a threshold question. I argue the point and come taking a child into care, but I have never come across back to the point that if children are being talked to a case where I have thought that has been the reason in a manner that undermines their self esteem, that in for either taking action or not taking action and itself is not, in my view, sufficient cause to take a certainly never the reason for an adoption, for child into care and go through the traumatic process example. of being removed from the family. Also the Prison Reform Trust recently produced a Q340 Chair: So there are not pressures within the report, which I have also copied to the Committee, system to control budget? which does contradict the arguments as to why Martin Narey: There are certainly pressures within children end up in prison when they come out of care. the system, but my experience is that people do not I have page 41 here and I will quote from it if I can make a decision just for financial reasons. There are find it. This is about which aspects of the care system financial consequences but I think the real reason for have most influence on chances of offending, and the the reluctance to take children into care has not been, factors that the children who were convicted as is sometimes suggested, the fact that it costs a lot highlighted included: losing contacts with family and of money. It has been about certain myths: the belief friends; poor relationships with carers; relations with that the law requires social work to balance the rights peers and peer pressure; type of placement; and of the parents with the rights of the child. They do frequency of placement moves. The difficulty is that not; it is what is best for the child. Myths and we are dealing with a range of cases and dealing with a range of cases cannot be done on an anecdotal basis. misunderstandings also exist about attachment theory, I accept that I see a subset of the problems. I see the but most of all—and I cannot stress how difficult it cases where there has been over-intervention. I accept has been to change opinion in this respect—there is that. I also accept there is a need for intervention. The the belief that however bad neglect at home is, care difficulty is in collating. Take the issue with adoption, makes things worse. The research is absolutely clear: or just runaway children: the Government will not care is not perfect, but it makes things better. even track runaway children properly from SSDA903 and that is really stupid when a large number of Q341 Pat Glass: It is interesting. Three of us visited children disappear from care for other reasons. We are some children in care last week and I was surprised, I supposed to be in loco parentis in theory; it is the have to say. These were mainly older children, all in councillors who are in loco parentis. I would be very foster care. I think one had had up to 16 changes of worried if I had lost one of my children and I did not placement but they all said that overall they felt that know where they had gone, but the Government is care had improved the situation for them and they quite happy to accept ‘other reasons’ as part of the were better to have been in care than to be with their SSDA903 data. That is ludicrous. What Martin says parent. I have to say, I was surprised by that. is incontrovertible is actually controverted. Martin Narey: I have had very many conversations like that, including as recently as two or three weeks Q343 Chair: Could you come back on the budget ago in Cambridge with a group of children in care, all issue? of whom spoke warmly about their experience of care. John Hemming: There are gateways there. There is a The research is simply unequivocal. Care can be managerial gateway. When a council goes into deficit, better, but care is much better than neglect, so the it establishes managerial gateways to try to control reluctance not to intervene because of bad outcomes thresholds. Parents have found recently that children for care is a misunderstanding of why there are bad who were in care for some time were suddenly sent outcomes for care. When I was running the prison home. My view is they should have been home earlier service I came to this quite erroneous conclusion that if it was safe to go home at that stage. Knowing, as I care was causing all these young people to be locked do, the system at other levels, sometimes a child in up. I was wrong. I was making a classic confusion care in a specialist institution costs up to £500,000 a between correlation and causation. What was year. Normal foster care agency rates are about propelling all these young people into custody was £35,000 or £40,000 a year. The court fees are failure to intervene early enough and get them into negligible in comparison to all the legal costs. These cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP things do have an effect, particularly in the financial that an awful lot and that can be done. On the financial climate we are in at the moment. incentive issue: if finance was driving this, two things would not be happening. We would not have seen the Q344 Craig Whittaker: I am a bit confused here. increase in the numbers of children in care that Ms Listening to you, John, I get the feeling that we are in Glass has referred to, because that has significant grave danger of just pulling out stats to prove the case. financial repercussions. We would have seen more, What I have not heard yet is the question that is being not fewer adoptions. Adoptions can save, and asked around budgets, which I am particularly generally do save, local authorities a great deal of interested in. You have mentioned one in, one out, and money, but adoptions have fallen by 15% in the last you have talked about managerial gateways. How big few years rather than rising. Obviously, finance is a an issue is it? consideration but I have looked for this—when I did John Hemming: Local authorities, if they want to my research for the work I did for The Times—and I manage their budgets, have to find ways of managing found that local authorities obviously have to cope their budgets. with the financial consequences, but they try overwhelmingly to do what is best for the child. Q345 Craig Whittaker: How big is the problem? In terms of your second question, Chair, about the John Hemming: I cannot say. wrong children, I stress it is not a perfect system. There is a capacity for human error. I agree very much Q346 Craig Whittaker: I take a very keen interest with Mr Hemming about the demonisation of social in this, and in my neck of the woods, for example, workers, which has led to some very defensive there are huge budgetary pressures, but when I was practice, but overall my very firm view is that our lead member in Calder we had 250 looked-after thresholds for taking children into care have been too children. We now have 376, which creates a huge high. Social workers have written to me in so many burden, but that does not mean to say that that local numbers, talking about their frustration at witnessing authority is not taking kids into care because of budgetary pressures. I get the impression that you are neglect for too long and not intervening until neglect saying that is a big issue. If that is the case, how big turns into abuse. an issue is it and can you give us some evidence? John Hemming: Can I come back on the issue of the John Hemming: The only evidence I have is actually numbers of adoptions? There are, in my view, four when I quoted from the Haringey documents that I types of permanence that hopefully can work, one of put in my submission to the Committee. I have my which is returning to the parents. Then there are personal experience in Birmingham of the proposal special guardianship orders, which can be in the form to establish management gateways to make sure that of foster carers or otherwise, residency orders and children taken into care have to be taken into care, so adoption. What has happened is that, whereas the it is a greater control on it. The difficulty is I have not numbers of adoptions has gone down, the children studied all local authorities and found out how each leaving care to permanence has in fact gone up. I find local authority operates. it rather sad that the Government do not quite understand their own statistics because the reality is if Q347 Craig Whittaker: So you do not know you put pressure on to achieve adoption rather than, whether it is a big issue or not? say, special guardianship or residency, what you are John Hemming: I know it has happened in Haringey. saying is that we want children not to go to their I looked at Haringey because what seemed to happen granny, aunt or uncle but instead to be adopted. At there is that a decision was made to take a child into least the previous Government, when they changed care because they were clearly at risk, but they were the Best Value 163 target to include permanence, not taken into care because of financial pressures. That included special guardianships and residency orders. is how it looked to me. Obviously there was a media We should not make the mistake of ignoring special fuss after the criminal trial, but in fact, after the death guardianships and residency orders. The idea that of Peter Connelly, there was a quick change in those are much better than the children returning to Haringey and you could see the figures suddenly shift. the parents is also dangerous. Going back—I think it was to 2007—I extracted from all the local government documents and put various The danger with all of this is if you manage what is a paragraphs in my evidence to the Committee. I would subtle issue of judgment through blunt targets or, even think that there are similar processes in most local worse, just saying, “Increase this figure”, without a authorities; there are some forms of controls. limit on the increase. Then you are skewing the decision-making and you are putting pressure on Q348 Chair: I think you have made your point. It is a people to make the wrong decision. I think this double-whammy, Martin, of the wrong children being approach is very wrong. It shows a misunderstanding taken into care in the first place, who should not be, of permanence and it needs to be re-thought. Again it and then, because of budgetary pressures, they are is an area the Committee could look at; I have got all squeezing out children who do need the care. Do you the stats here, they are from the SSDA903 return in recognise that? the first statistical release and I can leave it here if Martin Narey: I do not see a subset of cases. For you want. Permanence has gone up in the last few some years now I have seen a cross-section of cases. years each year, it is just that SGOs and residency Some of the work I was most proud to lead in orders have gone up, whereas adoption has gone Barnardo’s was the work which fixed families; we did down. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP
Q349 Pat Glass: Can I just clarify the issue around the case for and against adoption quite clearly? Just budgets? You have said that Haringey in 2006 had a specifically about adoption. forecast overspend of £2.3 million. I can recall when Martin Narey: What children need is permanence. All education and children’s social care were put together. the research on attachment shows that children need I was in education and was really rather shocked permanence and stability. Mr Hemming is quite right looking at the children’s social care budget, which to point out the crucial period between seven and 18 appeared to have been underfunded for years and months. If you are struggling to achieve permanence topped up from the adult social care budgets, and by that period then the damage to the child, while still those budgets were never adequately sorted out. The reparable, may be significant. There are a number of children’s social care budget came over in the forms of permanence, and I have made some authority I worked in, which was Sunderland, with recommendations in my report about making special something like a £2.5 million deficit. I was rather guardianship easier, for example. That is valid, shocked to be told, “Oh, that’s nothing; in Bristol, it although I do not think it is synonymous with is £8 million”, as if that was quite a good thing. Is adoption. Adoption is unique; adoption is forever; that deficit not part of that? Children’s social care adoption does not finish at someone’s 16th or 18th budgets were never adequately funded until they came birthday. I have a 27-year-old daughter who phoned into Children’s Services. me last night because she is getting married, and I am John Hemming: It is an interesting question as to going to be there with her and help her through that, whether viring occurs within budgets. Obviously, even and she is 27. It is not a thing that finishes at 18. It with the managerial gateway, what happened wrongly is forever. in Haringey was that the managerial gateway did not All the research on adoption is clear. Adoption is only operate properly. They should have increased the ever for a minority of children in care, but for those number of children in care and taken Peter Connolly for whom it is appropriate it can be transformational. into care. It can be transformational in the most remarkable circumstances. The Committee will be aware of the Q350 Chair: The managerial gateway, I assume, is experience of the Romanian children who were where you have to refer up higher than you would brought into this country after the fall of Ceaus¸escu: normally do. the most damaged children, children who had lived in John Hemming: It is a management system. You take depravity, children who ate gruel from bottles with it up the line before making a decision because it is enlarged teats; children who, when they were washed, quite a major commitment. I went through in some were hosed down. Some 168 of those children came detail the reports in Haringey and I obviously have into England, and Professor Michael Rutter has personal knowledge of processes in Birmingham, followed their fortunes until their teens. There were where, if there is a key decision that will incur costs only two breakdowns. Every child recovered the of £100,000 in the next year, it is not taken at the developmental delay because love and stability and bottom but at a higher level. That does not necessarily permanence can make an enormous difference. For mean that you do not allow the numbers to go up, of those for whom it is appropriate—for many children course, although one in, one out has been used at it is not appropriate, particularly for some older times. children for whom I would say special guardianship is frequently a better option—adoption can simply transform a child’s life and give a deeply neglected Q351 Pat Glass: They have gone up. child the sort of upbringing that we like to think we Martin Narey: They have gone up, yes, significantly. gave our kids. John Hemming: Yes. Obviously the numbers taken into care compulsorily—obviously there are Section Q353 Tessa Munt: Do you want to give me a snippet 20s as well—but those taken into care initially about the special guardianship then as well? through a PPO, EPO or on section 31 or 38 have gone Martin Narey: I very much welcome the introduction up since 1995, when there were about 5,500 a year, to of special guardianship. It was an attempt to try to about 10,500 a year where the year is the financial find a greater permanence for children for whom year to 31 March. So, they have gone up over that adoption was not likely to be appropriate. The puzzle period, and gone up substantially since 2008, when about special guardianship is that it was thought it the criminal prosecution occurred. It was 2008, wasn’t would go to older children, children who might have it? Although Peter died in 2007, and they went up a been removed from their families but who were six, little bit then as well. There are real difficulties in how seven or eight and knew mum and wanted to keep in you handle something like this, where, in theory, you contact with her, and there was a gran or an uncle on should not ever refuse to take a child into care if that the scene who could give permanent care and take a child is at risk, but in practice there are limits on the lot of the day-to-day decisions and the primary finance. It is a very difficult balancing act that does decisions on things like schools, rather than the not have a simplistic solution. parent—not being able to take the ultimate decision of placing child for adoption, but ultimately being in Q352 Tessa Munt: Some of this you have outlined charge of the child. It can be very helpful indeed and already, but I wanted to ask you about your cases for we need to make sure, particularly for grandparents, and against adoption. I realise that is going to be who might have fixed incomes, that there are not confused slightly by the other things that you have financial disincentives. To get a child out of care and mentioned, John, but can I just ask you to set out to pay financial allowance to special guardians would cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP be a good deal for the local authority. However, their parents in the past now get adopted. The stats special guardianships overwhelmingly have gone to are here. You are welcome to have a copy of them. babies and young children and nobody expected that. I do not know the answer to this and we need research, Q354 Tessa Munt: Martin, can I just test that idea of but we need to find out what is happening to those the grandparents, aunts and uncles having a greater special guardianships and we need to investigate the case for being the long-term carer, the person who claims made to me by a number of practitioners that takes responsibility? That is not at odds with what— sometimes, when adoption is recommended as the Martin Narey: It is not at odds and, indeed, opinion best way forward, courts are making a compromise in does not matter because the law requires local agreeing to a special guardianship. Yes, they are authorities to look first at finding a placement in the putting somebody with a family member, but the family, and very frequently that will be the very best considered evidence from the local authority is that option. Grandparents particularly play a huge role in the best thing for that very young child is the caring for their grandchildren informally and formally permanence of adoption. after special guardianship. I just want to be clear that John Hemming: The first thing is obviously you get if there is a consideration that there is a member of some children who are abandoned outside a hospital. the family who can offer care but that care will be of Some babies are abandoned at a hospital and the a significantly poorer standard than likely to be obvious long-term solution that is best for them is to afforded by adoption, we do what is best for the child. be adopted in some way, if you do not know who the Children are not property. They do not belong to mother is or anything. So there is always a role for anybody. They deserve the very best possible adoption. I got the Government to do some figures on upbringing. When social workers have talked to me the SSDA903 return, just for children who are aged over the last few years about the reason for either four and under, because at the end of the day the older keeping a child with the birth parents or for special children are less likely to be adopted. One of the guardianship, they use the expression, “Blood is dangers of the American system of adoption from care thicker than water”. I do not accept that. Very is that it is not a lot different to foster care, although frequently the best option for the child would be to go it is called adoption. There is an issue potentially to gran or uncle or whatever and that is fantastic, but about long-term support there. More study would be we should just be quite sure that we are not needed to see if that is actually arising from it or compromising the best interests of the child. I do not whether in fact it is a myth. I do not know either way, think anybody quite knows that and I will send the but the American system has really just substantially statistics that Mr Hemming disputes, about special re-branded some aspects of foster care as adoption, guardianships going to babies. because people are still getting large sums of money We need to do some research, and I have urged the for doing things, but then there is an issue about Department for Education to commission that. I support for people looking after children in any believe that it will do so, not only to understand more circumstances. about adoption disruption but special guardianship For instance, from 31 March 2010, 4,700 children disruption. Some local authorities follow special aged four and under left care in that year, 2,000 of guardianships; others turn away. For example, we do whom were adopted, which is, in my view, quite a not know, and it may be the case, whether a couple of high proportion. Of the larger numbers—obviously years after special guardianship the child is right back there are small numbers going to other local where they belong, with the parents from whom that authorities, etc—880 went back home to their parents; child was removed. 370 had a residence order; 320 had an SGO made to former foster carers; and 190 had an SGO made to Q355 Alex Cunningham: I have met with carers other than to the former foster carers. That grandparent carers in my constituency and they offer contradicts what Martin was just saying about SGOs. struggle financially to provide the best environment The grandparents, uncles and aunts do need for the child and look after them properly. Is there any consideration in all of this, and if it is possible to keep evidence at all that local authorities are seeing that as a child within the family that is a far better solution an easy option, a least expensive option, to place with than adopting the child to another household. I think grandparents, who they do not actually have to fund if people are going to argue that it is not, we need to in many cases? Is that something that is happening? see some evidence base for that. Again, in the The grandparents would say it is. background papers I have given the case of a mother Martin Narey: My honest answer is that I do not who failed a parenting assessment in part for putting know, but it is a possibility, because it certainly can her baby on a mat with another baby. That is in the be a cheap option and that is why I recommended it background papers you have got. If people are going to the Government and they are considering it at the to fail assessments for stupid reasons like that, we moment. We have to make sure that there is not a need to know. We need accountability and financial disincentive, particularly for grandparents. I transparency, not necessarily identifying the people have met people who do this and I had a good meeting but the reasons that are being given. I can leave copies last week with Grandparents Plus. They are of all the papers I have got here, but adoption will remarkable people. They should not be financially always be a function for some children in care. The disadvantaged by taking on a child who would question is why it is so much better these days with otherwise be in care. There is a very good deal for a far fewer children returning to their parents than did local authority: the fairly modest sums that you might so in the past, as children who would have gone to have to give a grandparent to make caring for their cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP grandchild possible are, as we all know, much smaller Martin Narey: I would greatly welcome a than the costs of keeping that child in care. Some local recommendation along those lines. There is a constant authorities are reluctant to commit. I think the law search to find a foster placement that might work—I requires them to consider support but there is no am not saying you only try once because fostering is requirement to provide it. the nearest thing to family life and can be very good, John Hemming: The money side of this is important and foster carers are remarkable people and in lots of different ways in terms of outcomes for sometimes succeed. The Christmas before last I had children: not least, if they are with a wealthier family lunch with some foster carers in Belfast and one and have got more money, it makes life easier. If any woman there had a young girl with her who was 14 analysis is done, that factor should be taken out of the years old and on something like her 24th foster analysis because it is very unfair to allow money to placement. She told me that every time she and the drive these things. There is no question about it that foster girl fell out that girl went upstairs and packed the money that potentially comes with a residency her bags. Her assumption was that she would just be order or an SGO or through foster care, or whatever on her way once again. We need to find stability. it may be, is important. It is important also to There is no reason, if we do it well, that residential recognise this issue about stability. To change a care cannot be done. There is a bit of a myth within placement to theoretically give permanence, when in the system that because most residential care is done fact that placement could have lasted a long time, is a by the private sector it is necessarily bad. What I have mistake. The legal status does not affect a baby. seen of residential care recently has impressed me very much. Q356 Tessa Munt: I just wanted to look at residential homes. I think some of the Committee have Q358 Tessa Munt: Can we be really brave? At what experience from their Barnsley visit that there are point do we say the numbers are too large? Clearly 24 children who deliberately sabotage their placements or 25 is a ludicrous number of placements for with families, but who flourished in a residential somebody. Should we have something that kicks in home. Have you any comments to make about that after you have moved four times? sort of thing? Martin Narey: I hazard to pick a number but yes, I Martin Narey: I have some sympathy with that think we should be very cautious. If a child has faced position. Interestingly, by the time I arrived at a fostering placement four or six times, we should be Barnardo’s in 2005 we had all but abandoned thinking about finding stability in some other way. residential care. We have a number of residential schools but virtually no residential care at all. The Q359 Pat Glass: Can I just come in on that? When voluntary sector retreated from residential care, in my we spoke to the staff at the school we were at last view, with undue haste following the controversies week they were talking about foster placements and over abuse, although there was very real abuse in they said that there was, in their view, one really good some homes. One of the things that first got me reason why they broke down, and I suspect it is interested in Barnardo’s was visiting a very small similar with adoptions: the foster parents are not given residential home, one of only three or four we still the proper information and the training before those had in Northern Ireland, where I met an autistic boy children arrive, and they are just not prepared for what who was clearly, to my layman’s observation, a very they are faced with. Moving on from what Tessa said, challenging young lad indeed, but he was doing very they also said that individual decisions are not made well in this residential home with a group of other based on what is best for children, and in their children and with a professional staff who worked in shifts and could share the burden. That boy was experience some children were better placed in moving on the following Monday to his 13th foster residential schools where their needs were better met. placement. The staff told me with absolute confidence Now, these tend to be very expensive. Would it not be that he would wear the most willing foster carers out better if the people who are making final decisions within six week. He took four weeks. I have since about children’s placements are not the people who met countless children who have had 24 or 25 foster have the budget? placements and 21 or 22 different schools. We would Martin Narey: I am not persuaded that these people never dream of doing this to our children and for some are making decisions based only on financial children the very best option for them is, I believe, considerations. When it comes to residential high quality residential care. If you look at residential education, that may be more of a possibility because care in Germany, and if you use the measure which is it is so expensive. used here—which I do not favour terribly because I think it is an unfair measure—of academic success, Q360 Chair: What does drive 25 placements? The then children in residential care in Germany do autistic boy you spoke about who, in the opinion of extremely well and do almost as well as the general the people around him and in your opinion as a population. layman turning up, was simply not going to survive in a foster placement was nonetheless being Q357 Tessa Munt: It is slightly strange, since you repeatedly put through the process, doubtless to his are working for the Government as well, but your detriment and that of the foster families. recommendation to this Committee is that maybe we Martin Narey: I think it is driven by a belief that should have a threshold over which children should somehow foster care is going to be best, and by a very not carry on moving. significant shortage of residential places. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP
Q361 Chair: He is squeezed out. Basically, he is individual children who might be suited to that shift pushed back to foster care even though everyone can care system? That is what resonated with me: the idea see it is not good for him because there is a shortage of having maybe two or three shifts of people who are of places, and if they can get him out they can stick looking after people in a residential situation, whether someone else in the bed? it is a care home or residential school, where you have Martin Narey: And because residential care gets such got 24-hour care. Is that what we are looking at? Is it a bad press and is considered to be the most damaging that particular group of children? of all, when for some children it can be the best Martin Narey: I think that group of children will option. I do not speak on behalf of Barnardo’s frequently do better in residential care—for all the anymore, so I am not doing this for anything that reasons you state—rather than being placed in would benefit them, but one of the things that most successive foster placements. We will know that by impressed me about the three residential secondary the number of times children fail. Historically, it is schools that Barnardo’s ran was that it was good for important to say the system has failed children who the children. I knew it also made fostering doable. are not on the autistic spectrum. A few years ago I Having a challenging child for 20 weeks of a year took a young woman leaving care around all the might be doable, but having one for 52 weeks is very studios, from the Today programme in the morning to nearly impossible. The combination of foster care and Newsnight at night. Barnardo’s were making an issue residential education could be—I know it is, because about poor academic attainment. I did not get a word I have seen how well the children have done—very in the whole day because everybody was so transfixed successful, but it is very expensive. by this young girl, because it was quite obvious to anybody who spoke to her for two minutes that if she Q362 Chair: Sorry, just picking up on that last point, had been your child she would have been celebrating were you suggesting that you could have 20 weeks a getting 10 GCSEs. This was a day when she had got year with the same foster family year after year? none. This was a bright, well adjusted child but she Martin Narey: Yes, that was what I was meaning. had been to something like 19 different schools, and that is what the care system had done to her. As she Q363 Chair: Is it possible that multiple placements moved from foster carers to foster carers that can actually be good for the child? sometimes meant moving 20 or 50 miles and starting Martin Narey: No, I think we need fewer placements. at yet another school. We would not do it to our kids. “Stability” is the word. Stability is what children need above all else. Every time we speak to children in care Q366 Craig Whittaker: John, I am a little bit they talk to you about stability and tell you what it confused. You said something is going badly wrong means. What I was saying is that for some children, with the judgemental system. You have also said that fostering can be a workable and successful option if you have no evidence of the number as you only deal it is accompanied by residential education. with obviously the people— John Hemming: Yes, the subset where it has gone Q364 Chair: So respite? wrong; the checks and balances fail. John Hemming: There is plenty of evidence about psychological damage; that each change of placement Q367 Craig Whittaker: The checks and balances causes a problem. That includes the first change of stuff. I think you deal with 1,000 cases? placement into care and I think that often is ignored John Hemming: Over 1,000, yes. in the cases I have cited. Chair: As you have said already. Q368 Craig Whittaker: There are well over 65,000 John Hemming: If you look at the Irish case when kids in care, so your cases only represent 1.5%. We they were looking at traumatising a seven-year-old have also seen Christopher Booker get a bit of a boy, taking him from his brother and his mother and slamming from Tim Loughton earlier on in the year, putting him in for adoption, without contact, in saying his campaign was “damaging, demoralising England, when the Irish authority said he was and very unhelpful”. I do not think anybody is perfectly safe, it shows that there is something going disagreeing with you that there are some cases in the very badly wrong with the judgmental systems. system that are clearly wrong but what evidence is Everything Martin said just now I agreed with. One there to say that actually there is widespread group it may be worth taking evidence from is some occurrence of forced adoption, for example? of the people in their forties and fifties who run John Hemming: We know there is forced adoption NGOs—campaigning organisations—who were because the statistics are there. themselves in care, so they can speak from the perspective of people with some experience of life Q369 Craig Whittaker: Do not change what I said. who were in care and who recognise the merits, and I said we are talking about widespread occurrence. agree that at times residential care is the best option. There is a huge difference, because going on the stats of what you deal with as an organisation compared to Q365 Tessa Munt: Can I just go back to something those in the system, we are talking about, on that you said, Martin? Clearly there are young people who premise, over 98% being done well. Let us talk have special needs—many more special needs. I am about widespread. talking about learning disabilities or a problem with John Hemming: First, to be able to deal with my autism or something along that spectrum. Are we organisation people have to be literate and use email. looking specifically at that particular group of That is because we do not have masses of resources cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP to deal with things. Most of the people who do would be appropriate. The case where a baby is McKenzie friend work are volunteers. Immediately abandoned at a hospital and the mum goes off and you cut down dramatically the number of people who you do not know where the mum is. That is a very can get involved. Of the 65,000 children in care other obvious case. Wherever you set the line, the line will than respite care, I think about 35,000 are on Section never be set at zero adoptions. I have always said that 20, so they are voluntarily in care, accommodated by there are some cases where adoption is appropriate. I the local authority at the request of the parent. So they cannot put my hand on my heart and say precisely are not really relevant to this, although at times how many miscarriages of justice occur, simply parents are bullied into putting their children into care because, to do that you would have to go through the through Section 20 on the threat of legal proceedings cases and assess them, and that is a very difficult otherwise. You are really looking at the current 10,500 process. We have all the international cases where the children who are taken into care compulsorily. They Nigerian Parliament has passed a resolution saying would normally go on an ICO rather than a full care that there is a problem. We have the French High order, or a PPO or an EPO. So you are looking at Commission getting involved in a case where there is those 10,500 cases. Now, our 1,500 are not all wrong a problem. either, but you are talking there about 10% of that number. That is an exaggeration, to be fair. Take the Q375 Craig Whittaker: With all due respect we do case of the woman who was living— not live in Nigeria. We live in the UK. John Hemming: That is true but the case is in the UK. Q370 Craig Whittaker: I understand; you can bring Martin Narey: I differ very strongly from Mr up cases and you have submitted lots of cases here for Hemming’s answer there. To suggest there are 1,000 us to have a look at, but I am quite interested in pure adoptions that were wrong last year—first of all, it has evidence around numbers about how widespread it is. to be said that there were 3,040 adoptions last year. Yes, I think everybody agrees there is some forced Only 1,360 were without the parents’ consent. It is a adoption in the system, but where is the evidence to very small number. Overwhelmingly, in all the cases say this is a major, widespread occurrence? that I have looked at and in all the research I have John Hemming: I can just say a linguistic thing first? read, I do not think there is any evidence to suggest a Forced adoption is adoption where the parents’ significant proportion of those are inappropriate. consent is dispensed with and that is quantified in the SSDA903. I am talking about wrongful adoption as Q376 Chair: Do you have an idea of what proportion well, where all the miscarriages of justice occur. are inappropriate? Martin Narey: I could not give you a number, Mr Q371 Craig Whittaker: How big is it? Chairman, but I think the core process is so hesitant— John Hemming: I estimate it is around about 1,000 a and part of the consequence of that is that you have year, on the basis of looking at comparative stats over very significant delays—that first of all I do not think a number of years. local authorities rush into adoption. They take a great deal of time before they reach a decision. Q372 Craig Whittaker: Where is your evidence? John Hemming: The evidence is based on stats. I can Q377 Chair: You said some are inappropriate. Can go through the figures. It is on the SSDA903 return. you give us some feel for how many might be inappropriate? Q373 Craig Whittaker: If you have the actual Martin Narey: It would be wrong for me to say there evidence I would ask you to submit that to the are none that are inappropriate. I do not know. It is Committee so that we can— very possible that some are. I think the proportion John Hemming: To get it done properly, you need to would be tiny—1% or 2% might be as far as I would take a set of cases from a number of local authorities go, and to suggest that 1,000 out of 1,300 forced and go through them in detail. That is really what adoptions were inappropriate is, I believe, very needs to be done. The difficulty we have is that it is misleading. all done without real transparency. As much as there were supposed to be anonymous judgments produced Q378 Craig Whittaker: Clearly we have two wildly by the county courts, they are not generally produced; differing opinions and clearly no evidence to say what the whole process has not got integrity because it the figure actually is. What would you suggest the operates in secret without accountability. Then, as I Committee recommended to Government to find out said, you have these assessments where somebody how large or small this problem really is? fails an assessment because mum puts a baby on a John Hemming: There is a constitutional problem mat with another baby and that is deemed to be risky here, in that the difficulty lies in the accountability of to the baby. That is just not on. a secret judicial system. In many ways, Parliament should attempt to do this job. Constitutionally, Q374 Craig Whittaker: Are you not in danger of Parliament has the powers to do this. This Committee concluding that adoption is always inappropriate on could potentially take a subset of cases, identified in the basis of a few mishandled cases? I still have not a proper manner—so it could be a local authority’s heard any evidence to say that this is widespread. cases—and actually try and come to some view. We John Hemming: I know it is across the country could task and finish a Select Committee of the House because of the cases we see. I did say just now that to do that. It has not worked; if you look at what there are cases where it is very obvious that adoption happened with Munchausen by proxy syndrome, it cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP was recognised there was a very severe problem with because they feel that they will lose their children if false allegations of Munchausen by proxy syndrome. they report domestic violence. I think there needs to The then Government said, “Let’s ask local authorities be an attempt to protect the women and children how many problems there are”. I think one local together rather than just take the children away. authority—to some extent for insurance reasons, because if they admitted full fault they would not be Q381 Craig Whittaker: Is the culture still there or covered for insurance for any claim against them— not? Yes or no? said that there was one problem. John Hemming: I think so, yes. Martin Narey: I think the answer to your questions, Q379 Craig Whittaker: So your recommendation is Mr Whittaker, is no. If anything, I think because what? mothers are so often abandoned by the men in their John Hemming: What Parliament needs to do is start lives, who take no financial or emotional with a special investigation into secret expert evidence responsibility, sometimes social workers identify with reports—those ones where people say, “You need 18 that particular young mother overmuch; their months’ therapy before you can look after your child concentration is on trying to make the mother a and that is too long and therefore we are putting your success and their attention moves from what is best child up for adoption”. for the child sometimes to what is best for the mother. Martin Narey: I would suggest something relatively I do not think there is a culture of mother blame. simple and straightforward. You might do what I have done, which is to ask local authorities for papers that Q382 Craig Whittaker: John, you have called for a are going to adoption panels recommending the review on how child protection is managed in adoption of a child. I have sometimes attended panels situations where there is domestic violence. What to follow the discussion, but you can glean much of specific questions should the review address? this from just looking at the papers. I have yet to see John Hemming: You have got to start from the a case where a child had been recommended for children’s point of view. There is no question about adoption where I have thought that there was a that. You need to do longitudinal studies of cases that shadow of doubt that adoption was inappropriate. occurred, say, about three or four years ago. One of Overwhelmingly when you look at these cases, you the difficulties in studying all of these things is often wonder why intervention did not take place at an people look at a snapshot, and that can be very earlier stage. misleading. Obviously, I have been dealing with some John Hemming: That depends on people not sexing of these cases for five or six years now. You watch as up dossiers. We know from whistleblowers and from they go through step by step by step and where things the excellent work of Ted Jeory— go after there. There is no sense in studying cases that Martin Narey: One whistleblower. are live now. You want to study cases which were live. John Hemming: Actually more than one whistleblower, because I have spoken to other Q383 Chair: What questions need to be answered in whistleblowers; people sex up dossiers and that means a review? you cannot rely on what is written in the report. John Hemming: Again, you need to study what has happened, what actually does happen to individual Q380 Craig Whittaker: We have heard of children cases where this happens and what could have been being inappropriately removed from their mothers, done differently. where there is domestic violence, particularly against the mother. Is there still a culture of mother-blaming Q384 Craig Whittaker: Is it simplistic to believe in the child protection system, especially in the that all children can be made safe without ever courts? needing to be removed from the parents? John Hemming: Again, the Irish case I cite is one John Hemming: It is simplistic to say that. There are where the mother was a victim of domestic violence some children you have to remove from parents. and they were aiming to remove her seven-year-old There is no question about that. son, a year or 18 months after she had previously seen her ex, from her and his 18-month-old brother because Q385 Alex Cunningham: There have been many the court was worried that at some stage she might statistics talked about this morning but both the meet her ex again. I think that is very nebulous. We number of looked-after children placed for adoption are now two or three years on from that point and the and the number actually adopted has fallen since evidence is the Irish assessment of that was correct 2007. What, if anything, can we infer from this about and the judicial process, which basically came to the whether the system views adoption as a good option conclusion that the ex would be a threat to the for children? children, was wrong. The decision of the courts—you Martin Narey: If I may start, I think adoption for have an extract of the judgment in the background some years has been drifting out of fashion. It is seen papers—was that this would never have been allowed as somewhat a solution of the past. I was very to continue had this remained in the UK. They could surprised in my research for The Times to find that not do it because the Irish authorities under the Hague universities taking social workers through their first Convention would not allow them to take the child. degree either did not mention adoption at all or There is a women’s refuge organisation that would be touched on it only very briefly. There was a bit of a good to take evidence from on this. There is great renaissance following Tony Blair’s personal fear among women about reporting domestic violence, leadership on adoption when he became Prime cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
Ev 70 Education Committee: Evidence
13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP
Minister, but the numbers have slid back again. It has that there absolutely should not be targets. There somewhat gone out of fashion and some should be lots of performance information, but we practitioners—a minority—see adoption as a failure should not have targets for adoption. I think there is because they believe that it is always appropriate to scope for adoptions to certainly increase by, let us say, make a success of the family. They see adoption and 50% or more. that irrevocable decision to achieve a new permanence as somehow a commentary on their failure to make Q391 Alex Cunningham: Is that realistic, though, in intervention and support work. a world where my local authority is forever having to search for more foster parents and adoptive parents Q386 Chair: Is it always appropriate that there across the North East of England? There seems to be should be a presumption that care placement should an issue; there are not the people there to become be sought within the family first? adoptive parents in the first instance. Martin Narey: Yes, I think the law requires that. Martin Narey: I think there are the people there, Mr Cunningham. From the initial information we provide Q387 Chair: Is that right? to potential adopters and our attitude towards those Martin Narey: Yes, it is right. The caveat that I would potential adopters—the way they are sometimes put on is that we have to make sure, in making the treated with suspicion—if we approached this with a decision that a family placement is right, that it can bit more enthusiasm and were much more welcoming offer the same or reasonably the same prospects as to potential adopters, I think we could hugely increase adoption. If adoption can offer a much better prospect the number of people coming forward. I know from for a young child’s life, particularly for a baby, then my own postbag the number of people who have we should consider adoption. written to me to say they were so keen to adopt and either they were turned away for all sorts of reasons or Q388 Chair: You are saying it is always right to have they were simply treated so poorly in the assessment a presumption in favour of placement with the family process that they gave up. I think the scope for more and I am thinking: what about where there is forced adoptive carers in England is vast. marriage or honour-based violence and the wider John Hemming: Going back to about 2000, when family might be complicit in the problem? Surely it there were proposals to bring in the adoption target, would not be right in that context? the British Association of Social Workers warned that Martin Narey: You look first at the family but you that could result in children who would otherwise make sure that you are not compromising the interests have returned to their parents being adopted. I have of the child. That is why using the argument that got the papers somewhere. I can probably find them blood is thicker than water is the wrong way forward. again but I have not got them to hand. What I do have There are many circumstances where the family will to hand is the 2011 first statistical release, which looks not offer the same prospects for a successful life for at adoption. The figures for 2007 to 2011 are as that child as adoption, and when that is the case we follows: 3,320, 3,163, 3,320, 3,200, 3,040, which is a need to follow the law there and make sure that the slight reduction. But the figures for permanence are interests of the child are unequivocally put first. 5,110, 5,200, 5,490, 5,500 and then 5,960. Now, that is what the Government was asking social workers to Q389 Alex Cunningham: It is clear that you lament do. For the Government to give social workers a kick the reduction in the number of adoptions and you have for the numbers of adoptions going down when the actually said it should be radically increased. What numbers of SGOs and residence orders have gone up kind of proportional increase do you have in mind? by far more than the number of adoptions went down Should the number of children being adopted be shows the Government do not understand the doubled or trebled? statistics: the social workers are doing what they were Martin Narey: No. It has sometimes been suggested supposed to do. I still remain concerned that children that I think that adoption should be quadrupled, and it who should return to their parents are not returning to is generally a conflation between what I have their parents, but if the Government asks social suggested about very early adoptions of children workers to do something and they do it, the under one and more general adoptions. There is scope Government should congratulate them for doing it, not for a significant increase because there is a significant criticise them, which is what has actually happened. and growing backlog of children who, for all the delays in the system, have been cleared by the courts Q392 Chair: What about the 50% increase? for adoption and there is no one to adopt them. One John Hemming: This is where I disagree strongly of my most urgent recommendations to Government with Martin. We have a complete data set of all the is that we need a new assessment process to bring children in care. He needs to identify in that data set forward more adoptive carers. But after that I would where those children are. I look at the flow of infants, see a sustained increase, but I am not talking about a children four and under, because they are generally massive increase. the children who are most likely to be adopted. These are done up to 2010. The Department have promised Q390 Chair: You called for a radical increase. You me the 2011 figures sometime this month. I am happy say they should be “radically” increasing the number to share them with anyone at all. If you look at the of adoptions. flows in and out of care rather than the total number Martin Narey: I did. I am unwilling to try and put a in care, you see actually a substantial proportion— number on that because I agree with Mr Hemming 2,000 of those leaving care of the 4,700—get adopted. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP
There is not actually leeway in the system to have to be done in eight months; it very frequently takes more children adopted. Yes, okay, if you get the older longer than that. Lots of parents turn away from it in children adopted, but generally, it is not appropriate absolute frustration. We need an assessment system for the older children anyway. that is modified. We need less prescription from the centre. If we want to encourage local authorities to Q393 Chair: So 50% is not possible. achieve more adoptions when it is in the best interests John Hemming: There are already miscarriages of of the child, we should not be quite so prescriptive justice going on. An additional 50% is not possible, about how they assess carers. We need to attitudinally in my view, without causing even more miscarriages change what we do with carers so that when they of justice than already go on. come forward they feel supported. Martin Narey: That is not a figure I want to stick to. It is an example of what I might mean by a radical Q395 Pat Glass: There are some practical things, increase. We are united in the belief that there should Martin. I remember being persuaded, I think in 1996, not be targets for this. Although I do not represent the to take on special needs in an authority, with Government—I advise them—I know of no intention absolutely no background in special needs, which I on their part to introduce adoption targets; I do not think was actually a positive move. I walked into a think they will return. Before taking on the advisory room and opened filing cabinets and they were full of role, I did a piece of work for Kent County Council. full assessments of kids’ special needs. At the time, I can talk about this now because it has been put in the Government were moving towards having an the public domain. I spent four weeks looking very assessment and a yes-or-no decision, which could be intensely at what they were doing. The reason I challenged, within 26 weeks. There were at least 50 believe we could have more adoptions is exemplified to 100 who had not been assessed in six months. I by the statistics there. When I finished that piece of would doubt whether there would be one in two years. work, in July, more than 90 children were cleared by That moved very quickly because there was suddenly the courts for adoption and were waiting for adoptive a statutory timescale. In 26 weeks, there was a parents. There were only 21 sets of adoptive parents multidisciplinary assessment: “You will pull these available. Many of those children would grow out of things together and you will make a decision, yes or adoption. no, which can be challenged”. Should we not have Barnardo’s have estimated, in evidence they gave to some rigour in the system? me when I was writing for The Times, that about one Martin Narey: I have run three big organisations in in four children whose plan for permanence is my life and I have never attempted to run any of them adoption grow too old to be adopted. We have a without a lot of information about performance. significant backlog. Some of them are older, very- Management of information—particularly, hard-to-place children, but I know of lots of people comparative information between local authorities— who are very willing to adopt an older, more tells you how we are doing. I do think specific targets challenging, more disabled child and they are turned are difficult, but certainly I think there should be some away, I might add—and I am afraid it is true— guidelines. I believe, for example, that the current sometimes on spurious grounds around ethnicity. We guidelines on carer assessment, which suggest that the do not have all of the information we would like. I assessment should be done in eight months, are would like to know, but we do not know, in England frequently breached. I do not want to bring that eight right now, how many children have been cleared for months down very significantly—I would not bring adoption who are not in placement. I think that it down to shorter than six months, because I think number would be in the thousands. They are the prospective adopters have a lot to reflect upon, but I children who we should be concentrating on getting would like to bring it down to six months. Local adopted very quickly and that would provide a 50% authorities have to demonstrate they are fulfilling it. increase. John Hemming: That figure can be obtained from the Q396 Pat Glass: Even if we stick to eight months, SSDA903 return. I probably can find it myself, so I how many are properly assessed and how many will have a look later on. That information is available prospective parents get an answer at eight months? I because the SSDA903 return tracks the legal status would guess very few. change and the placement change separately. Martin Narey: Very few. It goes on, and that is not Martin Narey: Honestly, I do not think it is available. counting those who just get so frustrated and do remarkable things. I have personally met, in the last Q394 Pat Glass: Where do the delays come from in few months, remarkable people who have adopted the system? I accept what you are saying about not children from Russia, China, Nicaragua, Guatemala, having targets for adoption, but should we have some Mexico—all of them started out on the adoption statutory guidelines around assessment timescales? journey wanting to adopt a child in England. They Martin Narey: If we move on from care and the gave up or were given up or sometimes turned away delays that I believe take place before we intervene, and they have gone to the most extraordinary lengths we have an assessment system for adoptive carers that to give a child a home. We have to make sure that I do not think is fit for purpose. It is hugely well those people are supported when they want to adopt a intentioned. There is not anything on the adoption child from care. paperwork that you will see that you might think is unnecessary but the system has become very Q397 Pat Glass: Courts exist to providing a living repetitive; it takes a great deal of time. It is supposed for judges and for lawyers and very little else, in my cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
Ev 72 Education Committee: Evidence
13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP view. How much of the delay is in the court it run twice as fast. There is a problem with the quality proceedings? of assessments. There needs to be independence of Martin Narey: There are significant delays in court, assessments at the start rather than the local authority but I am enthusiastic about David Norgrove’s family doing everything, because, again, if the local authority justice review, which really got a grip on delay. We can produce nice tidy statistics it will win in court. will have to see how implementation goes on that. The statistics from the Ministry of Justice, which I do Delays on the courts are there. I do sometimes think not have to hand, show how rare it is that parents that local authorities hide behind those delays and it win in courts, compared to criminal proceedings. If is a bit of knee-jerk reaction to say it is all the courts. somebody pleads not guilty in a criminal case, half I do not think it is always the courts. Local authorities the time they are found not guilty, but it is very rare could move much more quickly. There is one other for parents to win in contested care proceedings. area that could make a radical difference. After quicker—but still rigorous—assessment of adopters, Q399 Pat Glass: It is a different balance. we need a matching process that works differently. John Hemming: No, the fact that it is “beyond The research on matching is very clear that if you give reasonable doubt” and “the balance of probabilities” adoptive parents a greater initiative in matching, and is not the reason for that. That is a different issue. if you recognise that there is a bit of chemistry in Obviously the CPS are experienced and know what the relationship between parents and child, you will sort of evidence will get through on “beyond achieve adoptions faster and they will be successful. reasonable doubt”, so I do not think that is the issue Generally what happens around England is we at all. approve people as adopters and then they have to stay entirely dormant until eventually—and sometimes this Q400 Chair: How rare is it? will never happen with people approved—they are John Hemming: I have got data for one year for offered a child selected by a social worker. contested ICOs, showing that parents only won 0.27% of the cases, but that is an understatement; it is slightly Q398 Pat Glass: So your recommendation would be higher than that because the local authority can a much swifter process around assessing parents and withdraw statements. I have not brought these figures. put that time into matching the child with the parent? The Ministry of Justice have them all, so there is no Martin Narey: Then I would move quickly. One of great difficulty finding them. Under section 38 of the the things that the British Association for Adoption Children’s Act, you only need to have reasonable and Fostering have done recently, which is very brave grounds for believing that a child is at risk. That opens and which I am hugely enthusiastic about—I cannot up a Pandora’s box, and perhaps in situations where remember the proper term—is having adoption there should be a supervision order, immediately there parties, in which cleared adopters and prospective is an ICO. I have the figures from a small, longitudinal adopters and children needing adoption are brought study from 2004—580 children were taken into care together. I met lots of adopters who went into the within the first seven days in the year up to 31 March process thinking they were going to adopt, say, a 2004. I do not know how you could do that any faster. single child of three years of age, who have ended up The point is that, after the ICO is established, very almost accidentally adopting three siblings of eight, often the final care order is given on completely nine and ten and consider it is the most wonderful different grounds. You need to watch how that process thing that has happened in their lives. develops to study how to improve it. My conclusion John Hemming: What really needs to be done is to is actually that we need to try as much as possible to look at the process—again, it is a longitudinal study get it out of the legalistic, secretive environment it is of where everything happens. By the way, on the in and more into a sort of collaborative case reviews, I think the family justice review is rubbish; I conference approach. I accept that some of the think the Munro review is very good. Munro has got decisions are very strong decisions, and they should it right. The use of a legalistic environment to resolve be subject to judicial review, of course. I do not think what are therapeutic issues is a mistake. There is a it works well as it stands. difficulty with the independence of the assessment process, but strengthening a case conference Q401 Tessa Munt: Some of the academics who have approach, with independence in that system, has a lot given evidence to us have said that for children to more potential. The difficulty is that you end up with benefit it is critical that they are taken into care before half of the costs being legal and expert fees for they are one. I wondered whether that is the same for handling what is effectively a therapeutic adoption and what your thoughts were about that. decision-making process. Over time it should be Martin Narey: Adoption happens to a subset of something subject to judicial review, but we are children taken into care, although sometimes social talking about very wide areas of discretion here; we workers will be of the view that adoption is the likely are not talking about narrow points of law, so it is not outcome. Care comes first and it is a separate the best suited to a legalistic, adversarial environment. consideration. It is important that children are taken The difficulty comes if you just take the current into care at whatever age they need care, but I do system and speed it up, as they have done in agree that we could recognise problems and intervene Derbyshire—I am getting quite a few cases from earlier, particularly if we recognised the evidence— Derbyshire where people are complaining about not and I could offer some academic references to support having had fair assessments. So I do not think you can this—that suggests that if parents do not respond to just take the current system and over-clock it, making the support that they are offered within six months cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 73
13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP and start to improve their parenting, they are unlikely home but have been abused and neglected. Indeed, to do so at all. If we took account of that, I believe what we are doing is letting them be permanently we would take, not necessarily more children into damaged. Some of the problems with adoption— care, but children into care earlier. The outcomes for although I sought earlier to qualify exaggerated claims those children, whether or not it was adoption, would about adoption breakdown—grow out of the fact that be much better. children have had disorganised attachments and find it John Hemming: This is where Michael Rutter’s subsequently very hard to build trusting relationships. research is very important. Michael Rutter studied the Romanian children and concluded that the golden Q402 Tessa Munt: The figure says the number of period for reactive attachment disorder is between children adopted under the age of one fell from 150 about six or seven months and 18 months. We come in 2007 to 60 this year. The average age of adoption back to the point about placement stability. An 18- is now three years and ten months and if you look at month-old child has no knowledge as to what their the average length of time it takes, the average process legal status is. It makes very little difference to them. length for a child of under one year is two years and What matters to them is who is looking after them three months, which means they are spending two and the stability of that placement. One of the thirds of their lives before they become adopted, in difficulties with the statistics we look at is that they the process. look at the legal status rather than the stability of Martin Narey: That is right. placement. If we take the 580 children taken into care in the first week of their life in the year to 31 March Q403 Tessa Munt: What are the consequences for 2004, 360 ended up adopted by 31 March 2007 and those children who spend all that time in a process? 90 returned to their parents. I have concerns about If I relate that back to what you said before, one must the validity of those decisions but it is actually the assume that that is damaging, as opposed to neutral. placement history that affects the long-term success of Martin Narey: It is damaging. All the research we the child, because if the child was placed with know about adoption suggests there is an inverse somebody else and then stayed with them for the rest correlation between the age at which adoption takes of their life then that child will almost certainly do place and the likely success. We increase the chance well. It is the same for the child abandoned at the of breakdown the more we delay adoption. hospital. Sometimes, ironically—because fostering can be very The difficulty is how you make these assessments. good for children—if we put a child in a fostering How do you actually deal with all of these? How do placement and then lose our sense of urgency about you make sure that the assessments are valid and the case and the child stays there for two years until independent? Martin makes the point that we should the child is perhaps three and a half and then goes to take children into care earlier. How do you identify adoptive parents, adoptive parents have told me those? The Irish case demonstrates incontrovertibly repeatedly about the terrible heartache they have that the decision-making here was wrong. It would because they know they are wrenching a child away have been bad for the child. It is all well and good to from exactly the sort of attachment that John has say children should be taken into care earlier, but described. We need to be very, very quick. Sometimes, how? We need to do proper longitudinal studies and of course, that means we should do rather more to identify: “At this point a decision was taken and at make adoption perhaps possible by those foster carers, that point we could have done something differently”. because moving a child on is very damaging. I am not That evidence is not there. suggesting the US system is perfect, and indeed, I Martin Narey: If I may move on from what is, I am have not visited to have a look at it. I hope to do so afraid, anecdote to what the research is. People have next year. Everything I have read about the US system studied this. Here is a recent summary of what we suggests there is a real sense of urgency about know about children taken into care. “A recent study stopping drift. From the moment a child is in care, if of maltreated children who enter care, funded by the they are likely to be adopted, the system works really, former DCSF, found that thresholds for entry to care really hard to make that adoption happen earlier. Here were often high. 92% of the children in the study had we tend to switch off. When the child is into care, experienced two or more forms of maltreatment, everybody relaxes. including neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and sexual abuse. In a number of cases, the abuse or Q404 Tessa Munt: What is the likelihood of a child neglect of children had persisted for many years being adopted by foster parents? Does the system without decisive action by children’s services or the work in that way? courts. In some cases, there had been repeated Martin Narey: I think the system could be more referrals for serious neglect by schools, neighbours imaginative. It sometimes happens but I think there is and others, but social workers had been reluctant to a lack of imagination. I was at Harrow recently and I remove the children from home.” That is what that was so impressed with what they had done. Foster research and lots of other research says about our carers were caring for three siblings. The siblings hesitancy in intervening. were going to be separated to ensure that the younger While John and I agree on attachment, it is important child was adopted. The foster carer said, “It is a shame to stress that attachment is only a key issue when that to separate them, they are doing well, but we cannot attachment is healthy. There is no bond there which afford adoption and our house is not big enough”. you are breaking for children who suffer from Harrow provides them with some financial support, disorganised attachment or children who have lived at they put an extension on the house and we had three cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
Ev 74 Education Committee: Evidence
13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP children continuing from fostering into adoption with emergency situations: someone turns up at their door the same parents who loved them. It is a fantastic at 10 o’clock at night with a child. That happens, but outcome. It just needs a bit of imagination sometimes. they have kept those children and they have not John Hemming: It is the stability of placement that moved on. Therefore highly skilled people who are is the thing, not the legal status. there to take children in emergency situations end up having foster placements that last for years, and Q405 Tessa Munt: I understand that. therefore that part of the system is closed down. Is John Hemming: The low figure of the children there that gridlock in the system that a child goes into adopted under one is probably those who are foster care and therefore the fire fighting is over, and it abandoned in a hospital because there is not an issue. just kind of gets forgotten and put on the back burner? There is no uncertainty. There are no parents to assess. Martin Narey: The system relaxes and people relax. There is nobody around. There is also the financial When it is perceived that you have taken the child out issue. If the former foster carers get a special of danger and the child is in care, then the system does guardianship order they are likely to get some funding relax and we do not see it as a priority. We should treat go to with it, which makes things easier from their adoption the same way we should treat a child with point of view. an illness in hospital; we should want to move as quickly as possible to sort those issues out and get Q406 Tessa Munt: What should the Government do the child adopted as quickly as possible. There is an to improve the process? important distinction to make between fostering and John Hemming: The process has to be properly adoption, because I agree that there are other forms of studied. As I said earlier, the judicial process is too permanence, and adoption and fostering can remote from reality. Rather than people going around sometimes be— and looking at the situation, you have a judge sitting in a room, reading piles and piles of paper. If you Q409 Pat Glass: Is that because individuals are have ever seen any care proceedings, there are piles lackadaisical or is it because the system is gridlocked? of paper that thick and it really gets very remote Martin Narey: It is gridlocked. It is because the from reality. system is very slow. I would not just blame the courts. Martin Narey: I think with babies, particularly, which I think it is a bit of a cop out to blame the courts. I was your original question, we need to do more to would like to see more adoptions, but you have to anticipate the probable adoption. The reality today is, have a legal process. The most important decision the if there is a young mum with a baby born today who court makes, apart from the death penalty, is to take a decides to give that child up for adoption, that child child away from its parents. There has to be some will probably go into foster care and it will be more legal scrutiny of the local authority’s actions in that than one before finally being adopted. Concurrent respect, but yes, I would like it to be quicker. I am a planning, which is well done in Harrow and I hope fan of the family justice review and I think it will will grow, anticipates adoption. It does not change the make a difference, but yes, the system is very slow. legal status, but it anticipates adoption. A baby is Some people suggest to me you need to change the placed at a very early age with a couple who foster whole system, have a national adoption agency and the child, but with the intention of adopting the child start again. I do not think organisational change is if adoption becomes the outcome for the child. called for here. I differ from John. You could make the system move much more quickly by doing a Q407 Chair: John, I assume you would support a number of things and there is no reason at all why we speedier move to adoption. You have issues with the could not do that and unlock the gridlock that process before authorisation that the child is suitable frequently occurs. for adoption, but after the child has been found suitable for adoption surely the system should move Q410 Pat Glass: What John is suggesting about a with the maximum urgency to find a suitable match. case conference type approach, with the courts clearly John Hemming: There are some mothers, like Peter being there at the end of the process but not being Connolly’s mother, who I do not think should ever be there throughout the process: would that not make it allowed to look after children. It would be better to quicker and safer? have a judicial process, which said, having had what Martin Narey: My problem with that is, while the has happened there, “You do not look after children”. interests of the child are paramount, you have to give That is a simpler process. What we do at the moment birth parents the opportunity to demonstrate that the is a very torturous process. I worry because I see the interests of the child lie in staying with them. I cannot unreliability of the system as it currently stands. see anyway through the need to have a legal process Whatever it is, stability of placement is key. That is that oversees adoption, because it is irrevocable, it is the most important thing. What you call it is not so forever, and the courts have to be able to look at that. important. However, it need not take the delay it takes at the moment. The family justice review’s recognition that Q408 Pat Glass: Martin, is there a degree of gridlock delay in the courts was “scandalous” encouraged me in the system? Going back to what you were saying a great deal to believe they are taking it seriously. about the delay: once a child is in foster care, John Hemming: I have a case conference for my everyone relaxes. I have friends who are incredibly constituents today where they have deliberately skilled and well trained with backgrounds in health moved the time of the case conference to stop those and education. They are trained to take children in people supportive of the parents from being able to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o004_th_4 - Corrected (13-Dec-2011).xml
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13 December 2011 Martin Narey and John Hemming MP turn up. If you are going to have a case conference Martin Narey: To go back to the core of your system, which I think would be a lot better, it has to investigation, which is the issue of safeguarding and be run independently of the Children’s Services the disagreement between John and myself over the Authority, so that there is independence and scrutiny appropriateness of taking children into care, if there is at that stage. The real difficulty is the whole panoply one academic who I would urge you to speak to, or at of everything adds delay. The system needs least read their research, it is Elaine Farmer. It is a substantial change and I disagree with Martin that the most compelling piece of work, which looked at what solution is 50% more adoptions. Saying that we need happens to children taken into care and returned to to increase the number but not how much is even their parents. She found that 59% of them are worse than saying the target we need to increase it to neglected or abused again within two years. That is is X. The Government needs to learn what their own not a system that is being reckless about taking statistics mean and make far better use of the children into care. It is a system that is too optimistic SSDA903 return. We need much more scrutiny of the about the capacity of parents to improve. family courts and far more transparency and scrutiny Chair: Thank you both very much for giving of what the assessments are. Assessments on the basis evidence this morning. of, “You cannot look after this child because you put it on a mat with another baby” are rubbish. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
Ev 76 Education Committee: Evidence
Wednesday 11 January 2012
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Alex Cunningham Tessa Munt Pat Glass Lisa Nandy Damian Hinds Craig Whittaker Ian Mearns ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Phillip Noyes, Director of Strategy and Development, NSPCC, Kate Wallace, Deputy Director Policy & Research, Barnardo’s, and Enver Solomon, Policy Director, The Children’s Society, gave evidence.
Q411 Chair: Good morning and welcome to this first supervision, is a lack or loss of empathy between the session of the Education Committee in 2012 as we parent and the child. The parent does not relate to the continue our inquiry into the child protection system child. The child isn’t there; the child isn’t cared for. in England. Neglect is rising up the child protection The effects of that, starting at a very early age, can be agenda. Has it always been as common as it now profound and very serious. appears to be or has something changed either in Enver Solomon: The issue of neglecting neglect has society or perhaps in our definition of neglect? been a theme within children’s social care and within Phillip Noyes: We carried out a prevalence study of issues around support for children in need for many, child abuse in 2000 and another one in 2010. Over many years. There is a widespread recognition from that period there was no sign that neglect had fallen. the evidence that for too long agencies have been It remained constant and at a high level. So we have neglecting neglect. Now these are difficult issues. deduced that the increase in child protection plans They are very difficult judgments to make but there because of neglect and the rise in care proceedings has been a tendency in decision making, particularly has been because of something other than an increased around assessments and referrals, to wait for a trigger prevalence of neglect in our society. What that is has moment, to wait for clear evidence of physical abuse not been well researched yet, but we are imagining it or harm. As a result there has been a tendency to give might be two things. One, there was a well placed parents the benefit of the doubt. anxiety about case management in the wake of Baby The other side of this is that sometimes there have Peter Connelly. Perhaps, as well, there was an been misunderstandings of neglect. We particularly increased recognition—because that had been found that in cases relating to families and children preceded by an increase in child protection planning subject to immigration control. Due to the fact that for cases of neglect—that neglect was a problem that there is no recourse to public funds and due to the fact many professionals around the country were dealing of their predicament around destitution and associated with and that there were inherent problems in the mental health problems, that can be misunderstood as management of cases of neglect which the profession a form of intentional neglect when actually it is a decided they should do something about, those consequence of their very difficult predicament. But I problems being the particular challenges of think the broad issue that the levels of neglect that identifying the absence of care, as distinct from the exist have not widely been recognised by agencies is presence of a trigger incident that provokes an definitely the case. investigation or proceedings with physical abuse or sexual abuse. Q412 Chair: You are making a difference there There was also a lack of clarity sometimes about what between intentional and non-intentional neglect. constituted neglect that was sufficiently serious to When it comes to intervention, is the intention the require child protection planning and then care key point or should the outcome for the child be the proceedings. We think that probably—although this primary driver? has not been well researched yet—those factors Enver Solomon: The primary driver, as the legislation influence the upsurge in neglect. It is a problem that is very clear, should always be decisions taken in the we at the NSPCC have been and are concerned about best interests of the child. That is very clear in the because of its profoundly damaging effect on children. 1989 Act. The paramountcy principle is very clear, I am sure we will talk in a moment about definitions and that has to be the fundamental element and of neglect. Its definitions have not basically changed, fundamental factor in decision making. but that is part of the problem really. There has been a criminal law definition since 1933 and a Working Q413 Tessa Munt: I was going to ask you a little Together definition over the last 10 years or so, but more about the definition of neglect in Working they are slightly at odds with each other. There is a Together to Safeguard Children and whether it was dilemma with professionals, and indeed the public, too broad or about right, or whatever. I know that about what comprises neglect, what should be done Phillip has made points already about the fact that the and how we should do it. But at the heart of neglect, two definitions—the ’33 definition and this one—are which is often just defined as something about lack slightly at odds. Is there anything that you would say of emotional care, lack of physical care or lack of should be changed? Is there any amendment? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon
Phillip Noyes: I wanted to come to the Committee very interesting about this. We asked some young with a solution, but I do not have one. I think they people before Christmas what they thought neglect should be changed. The problem, as the Chair’s was and what they made of it. They were teenagers, question showed just now, is that in criminal law, and the phrase that came through to us, and we have wilfulness is relevant but in civil law, it is not. It is lodged it, was not one that is in anywhere. It was the about the impact on the child’s body. Motivation does notion of “severe parental unavailability”. That just not actually count there, but the two together do not really felt very nice both on a concrete supervisory sit easily for professionals making judgments about level and also being emotionally not there. It felt like how bad is bad, and about when should I intervene a really nice phrase. and when should I not. The definition in Working Tessa Munt: That is very understandable. Together covers the kinds of incidents that might be Phillip Noyes: It is, isn’t it? relevant to deciding neglect is there, but the critical Enver Solomon: It is something that young people words are around persistent failure and obviously to have said to us as well. Poor parenting or a lack of do with significant harm. How you judge how active engagement with them, particularly as persistent is persistent, and what counts as a failure is teenagers needing support and needing that really a matter of judgment, but motivation does not attachment, is something that they have identified as, come into it. to them, constituting maltreatment. We think actually—short of giving you a solution, Kate Wallace: We have a particular concern about which I do not have in a form of words—that it is the older children and neglect and the fact that it is not right time to review the definitions in both criminal really that well recognised or understood within that and civil legislation by a really serious think age group. I was reading an academic article from the nationally about best practice that would drive both US yesterday around quite affluent parents but also civil and criminal definitions. We would suggest young people who had been involved in childhood respectfully that you might want to recommend that. sexual exploitation and neglect in terms of supervisory Tessa Munt: That’s great. Thank you. neglect. Just that lack of empathy with parents and Enver Solomon: There is a case for that, as Phillip their unavailability, as has been described, has been at says. One of the key issues around improving the the heart of some of the issues for those young boys, definition is to look at how it better captures the need as it was. to take into account young people’s age and development. Parental behaviours that might be Q416 Tessa Munt: Why do you feel that neglect is deemed abusive or neglectful for a very young child— so common? Or is it? an infant—would not necessarily be considered Enver Solomon: There are a number of complex appropriate for many older children. Additionally, factors here that contribute to neglect. There is a clear children aged 10 to 17 face a wider range of issues relationship around the capacity to parent and the due to their social networks. The issue of networks in resources in the home. Those are not just financial relation to the use of computers and online technology resources, but resources in the broadest sense, and we is an obvious one, but lifestyles, their increasing found that through our work. The issue of parenting independence, and the fact that young people and and parenting support is very significant. There are a older children are more likely to have experienced number of hidden issues, particularly around conflict family change, and are more likely to have taken on and domestic violence in the home and also around roles of caring for parents, of being a young carer— conflict and breakdown of relations between older children and parents. There are substance misuse and Q414 Chair: So you can have a series of definitions mental health issues, which are often hidden and do of neglect based on age? not appear to be prevalent or noticeable, and I think Enver Solomon: No, I think the definition needs to the combination of those often presents itself. take into account young people’s age and Older children in particular are very reluctant to development. There might be a specific overall disclose and share information, and their behaviours definition, but there might be then, unpacking that, that are a response to being in a risky situation are a recognition within setting out the definition of the often misunderstood as them acting out and differential issues around age development. misbehaving, rather than them being at risk. Their behaviours are labelled as risky, rather than a Q415 Tessa Munt: Do we need to explain to people consequence of being at risk. what is expected? Is there anywhere that we explain Kate Wallace: I would absolutely agree with that. what is expected that is not neglect? There are issues particularly around older children. Phillip Noyes: No. In Scotland, they have parental Some children may not know that their situation is responsibility set in legislation, and I actually do not any different from anybody else’s, and that can have know that it has proved particularly useful, other than an impact on whether they speak up, particularly as a marker for what appropriate parental behaviour where there is neglect. However, there are some is. In England, we do not have that. The Children Act, aspects of it where children do feel very acutely that quite understandably, concentrates on omission or they are different from others. In some cases, failure—gross acts of bad behaviour by parents—but particularly with supervisory or other types of neglect we do not tell the parent what is expected, no. and with that lack of empathy, some children might For me, the definition needs to get at the lack of not realise that they are different from their peers or empathy—just not connecting with the child. Age is their friends, so I think that adds to the complexity of very important, especially with babies. Children are it as well. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
Ev 78 Education Committee: Evidence
11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon
Phillip Noyes: I was going to add to that and simply recommendations around schools and peer support say that I think the notion gets to the heart of the fact that we put forward in a joint report with NSPCC that a lot of people that have children, especially when looking at safeguarding 11 to 17-year-olds. they are young, do not know how to parent them, and then you add distractions such as relationship Q420 Tessa Munt: Are we dealing with the under- problems and domestic abuse. It actually gets at the 16s here only, because you have got issues of heart of the fact that a lot of parents who have other confidentiality for the over-16s? What happens? problems do not know how to put children first and Enver Solomon: No, no. This is children under the do not know what to do. Whether that is something to age of 18. do with the way that they have been brought up or not is moot—it is and it is not—but I think it is a notion Q421 Alex Cunningham: A lot of people believe that really gets at what we want parents to be. that poverty is the significant cause of neglect, and I If we look at things that are going to prevent neglect, I wonder whether that is the case. The NSPCC has a think we are talking about being serious about helping great list of causes, but what other factors make a people be good parents from the time that they start child prone to neglect? More important, can these thinking about relationships in their teens and at factors be used to intervene early with families at risk, school through into the sort of early help that we know bearing in mind the point that Kate made about some that vulnerable parents can benefit from. It is that kind children perhaps not knowing they are in that risk of thing that we need. That is where I think neglect is situation? in parenting. Phillip Noyes: There is not a straight line between neglect and poverty. A lot of people who live in Q417 Chair: As you know, we write reports and poverty are really very good parents and do great. make recommendations to Government, and they are There are associations with poverty and with obliged to respond. Do all three of you feel that the relationship problems, and, as I said before, the lack current definitions of neglect are inadequate and that of ability to relate to the child. In terms of referral, the Government should look to come up with better you are absolutely right: babies cannot refer definitions informed by different age requirements and themselves. What is needed is that the universal the like? providers remain and are better at spotting concern Enver Solomon: Yes. and have confidence in referring cases of neglect. Kate Wallace: I think that would be helpful. With physical abuse—not usually sexual abuse for the Phillip Noyes: Yes. very little children, but sometimes—there is a trigger Chair: Obviously, because it was your proposal in the incident and there is a confidence about saying, “Yes, first place. there is a bruise, let us do something about it.” Neglect is more sophisticated than that, and we are not there Q418 Tessa Munt: There were three things that yet in providing the right form of tools to help that struck me while you were speaking. judgment to be made confidently. At present, it is for Chair: Are you sure these are three questions, health visitors particularly and medical professionals because we are taking evidence from the witnesses? to be confident that they should refer for help, Tessa Munt: On severe parental unavailability, the especially for very young babies. things that struck me were that we have got a lot of working parents, and I was wondering about when Q422 Alex Cunningham: How do you close that you listen to young people talking about gangs and gap? You say we are not there yet. how they belong and how they are a family for them. Phillip Noyes: The NSPCC is currently—as are The other thing is the fact of disclosure. Do you not academics, and you have heard evidence from some think the problem we face is that young people will already, I think—working at what sort of tools and not disclose to authority, but they perhaps disclose to what sort of kit can really help to provide confident each other? judgment about referring into social care. The other Enver Solomon: Yes. That is what we have found side of the coin, of course, is that thresholds into through research that we have done: they are more social care need to be such that social care providers likely to disclose to their peers than either to family are available to help in cases where the data might be members or to those people whom they perceive to be quite soft and where the concerns might be, at present, in a position of authority. That is why I think things unspecific. Perhaps we will come back to that later. like peer-led safeguarding forums in schools, or peer Enver Solomon: There is no evidence that there is safeguarding mentors in secondary schools or colleges a direct causal link with poverty. There are certainly could play a really significant role. correlations. We have done wide-ranging research asking children what the factors are that impact on Q419 Tessa Munt: Okay. So if I think about the fact their personal sense of well-being, and it is very clear that the NSPCC has decided to prioritise neglect— that sudden shocks in terms of household income other organisations may have done so as well—how impact on children in their home. In other words, they does that lock in if you have got safeguarding in are not immune to sudden changes in income. Given schools taking place at, I presume, a peer level? How the current financial climate, that is particularly does authority glean that information? pertinent. It is also very clear that those children living Enver Solomon: There should be a link with that in households that are in the lowest income groups are information feeding into safeguarding boards through clearly affected in terms of their personal sense of effective information sharing. That was one of the well-being. I think that that affects whether or not cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon there is a greater likelihood of them being neglected. Professionals should be aware of the fact that the very The capacity to parent is certainly impacted and worst-off children in our society are children where affected by the nature of the resources going into the there is both an omission of parenting and a form of household, and we should not ignore that fact. physical abuse or sexual abuse, so professionals Phillip is absolutely right. The need here is to give should be looking for both. professionals the space to exercise discretion and reflective practice, and to have support from managers Q425 Chair: You did not really answer the question, to take an holistic approach—to look at case histories, which was specifically about whether there is to do not just one-off assessments but continuous insufficient emphasis on intervening on things like assessments, and to observe closely the relationships domestic abuse, rather than, if we could stop domestic between parents and children. That is much more abuse, we would not be characterising the mother, for complex for older children—for teenagers—who will instance, as failing to protect her child. I think that not necessarily have positive relationships with their was the question. parents. Kate Wallace: I think it is about definitions. In my Kate Wallace: I want to make two points. One is experience prior to working for Barnardo’s—in about professionals having training in child Scotland, I worked for the Children’s Reporter—there development, because what we know from the were a lot of referrals about domestic violence where research is that severe neglect, particularly chronic it was the mother who was seen as failing to protect neglect, can have such an impact on child the child. There was a lack of sophistication and development. Practitioners having knowledge about understanding about what those issues were and about that, so that they can spot the signs of potential perpetrators of violence and how they are failing to developmental delay is quite important, as is care for their children at the point where they are everybody who has contact with the child being aware acting in a violent, aggressive, frightening or of some of the signs that might indicate that there is terrorising way. That part that we have talked about, some neglect. It has also just struck me during this in terms of children being more likely to speak to conversation that resilience and the strategies for peers and friends, is unhelpful, I think. Certainly in improving resilience among children have not really Scotland, we found that there was a time when an been discussed yet. That is important to bear in mind automatic referral was made to the Children’s as well and can help with some of the points you have Reporter every time the police went out to an made, Alex. investigation. That was hugely unhelpful in a sense, because nobody was really managing risk; they were Q423 Alex Cunningham: Are the causes of neglect just passing on the risk to another agency rather than any different from those of other forms of child looking at what was happening in that situation. abuse? Kate Wallace: Neglect is such a wide-ranging area Q426 Alex Cunningham: Are we becoming more and has such different facets that there are some sophisticated in the way that we are identifying this common themes, but there are some differences as issue? well, I guess, particularly if you want to talk about Kate Wallace: I think so. The issue is also that some abuse. Part of the issue, and part of the problem in people are in situations in families where they can terms of determining exactly how big an issue it is, is make provision and be helped. Domestic violence, as that abuse and neglect often go together as a kind of you know, is a hugely complex area. It is a process of joint term, and that that can be unhelpful. It is quite a leaving; the person who is being abused often does big question and it could take about an hour to give not just go in that set way. The research will tell you you an answer. that the most risky time is actually when the relationship has broken down—that is when women Q424 Alex Cunningham: Very briefly put. Can we are most at risk of homicide. In some cases where the talk about domestic abuse? How common is it for problem is seen as a failure to protect the child, there mothers suffering domestic abuse to be accused of are actually some other protective factors and support neglecting their child for failing to protect them from that can be put in place to help manage that process witnessing that abuse? Often, it is the abuser who in a better way, rather than just seeing it as that needs the attention rather than the abused person. straightforward issue of leaving. Could a greater emphasis on stopping domestic Enver Solomon: I would just add briefly that the best violence contribute to reducing instances of neglect? interest of the child has to be at the heart of the Phillip Noyes: I would take it the other way round. decision-making process. Any professional must On the hidden problem of neglect, we think that one always be very conscious and locked on to that fact. of the reasons why it is hidden is that professionals Kate Wallace: Yes of course. become hooked on to the more visible, tangible forms of abuse and do not look behind the bruise or the Q427 Alex Cunningham: But other professionals sexual abuse to look at the preconditions in the family are locked on to that fact. that may have lasted a lot longer and actually been Enver Solomon: As well, yes, but it is also about worse for the child than the physical maltreatment. I adult social care and children’s social care taking would have asked it around the other way: yes, decisions that are in the joint interests of children. domestic abuse, domestic frictions and all sorts of There is a tendency perhaps for agencies to look at abuse in families can cause neglect and be related to domestic violence not in the context of the impact on it, but neglect can underpin other forms of abuse. children and vice versa; it needs to be looked at in the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon context of how it will impact on children, and respects will go on to cost society a great deal of decisions must always be taken that will promote the money. They are more likely to end up in EBD welfare of the child. schools, PRUs, mental health services and prison services, and least likely to get stable employment; Q428 Ian Mearns: We have already touched on the therefore they are going to cost us a great deal of question of how to define neglect. Phillip, you opened money. In those circumstances, where do you think a up and told us about the criminal law, and how the social worker should intervene when there is not a definition has not changed since 1933, and Enver, you single point of crisis? These children are not just being mentioned earlier that agencies were neglecting neglected, but they are actually going to cost us a lot neglect. In my own experience, I have been in of money. In what circumstances should social situations where professionals, be they teachers or workers intervene, when there is not a single point school welfare officers, have been concerned about a of crisis? child, but the level of neglect that the child was Enver Solomon: If you look at how arrangements are suffering was not high enough for a social services currently configured, it is very clear at what point it intervention. It was clearly identified that neglect was becomes a section 47 investigation and at what point occurring, but the threshold for social services it is deemed to be less serious. The challenge here is intervention had not been met. not so much at what point does children’s social care Enver Solomon: What age of children are you actually activate child protection proceedings, but at talking about? what point do other agencies, when there is clearly early signs of concern about that child’s predicament, Q429 Ian Mearns: I have been a governor in seek to try and address that through early help and primary, secondary and special schools in the last 30 prevention? We have made progress in that context in years. Over that period, I have encountered that on a relation to multi-agency work, but I think that there is number of occasions. a now real risk, due to a number of factors, of Neglect has many manifestations. The Chairman agencies pulling back. talked about intentional and non-intentional neglect, A classic analogy is if you go to your doctor and say, but from the child’s perspective—at that end of the “Doctor, my back is hurting me.” They do not telescope—if it is being neglected, it is irrelevant what immediately refer you to an acute specialist; they seek sort of neglect is happening. The fact is that it is being primary prevention means of trying to deal with that neglected, and that needs to be rectified. If we need a problem. In the same way, if a child is presenting with better definition of what constitutes neglect, do you clear concerns around their behaviour and so forth, think it would be at all possible for all the agencies there should be a response from those agencies that such as yourselves to work together on a definition for are immediately engaging with that child, whether it a recommendation to Government? be, for an infant child, health visitors, or for an older Enver Solomon: Yes. Government is currently child, or schools. I think that is not happening as reviewing the Working Together guidance, which effectively as it should be. includes that, and is consulting with stakeholders on The proposal set out in Munro for a statutory duty for it. early help is a missed opportunity because the Government has decided to not take that forward. I Q430 Ian Mearns: Society has changed beyond think that that services will not always come in early recognition, in many respects, since 1933— to avoid cases reaching crisis point in the way that the Chair: That’s controversial. Government and all those working in this area would Ian Mearns: I’m terribly sorry, Chairman. I didn’t like to see. mean to be, but I think most people would accept that. Do you think that a rapid and urgent update of that Q433 Pat Glass: I accept that, but I have sat in very 1933 definition is required, from the criminal law many case conferences where most of the perspective? professionals around the table think, “We’ve done all Phillip Noyes: I am never very good about responding that. We have brought in the behaviour support to questions about whether things should be urgent or services. We’ve got the CAF. We’ve done all of these not. It needs to be done; it could be done soon, but I things. The school is putting loads of support in.” This do not think that it needs to be done tomorrow. It is about the family, and the child is being seriously needs to be done properly. The law has lasted a long neglected, but they do not hit the trigger points. time, it does feel outdated and it is out of touch with Enver Solomon: Are you talking about a case where civil law, but it would be good to do it properly. everyone is agreed that it has reached a threshold? Enver Solomon: It needs to be done right, rather than rushing it. We are saying collectively that there is a Q434 Pat Glass: Yes, but it still does not reach the clear rationale for doing it. threshold for social services. These children are going to go on, and five years down the line, they are going Q431 Ian Mearns: I am talking about urgency in the to reach their intervention. context that it has been 79 years since it was last Enver Solomon: We know thresholds vary across the changed. country. Certainly in terms of entry into care, you can talk about more than 150 different approaches to Q432 Pat Glass: Many of the children who we are thresholds rather than consistency. That variation is a talking about—children who suffer lack of care and common theme, and it is something that our services lack of supervision—are children who in many experience—even with neighbouring authorities. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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There are a number of factors that affect that around research was that there were only very small numbers; local resourcing, local cultures and managers, and it was about the ability of parents to change if they even different legal advice that might come from local hadn’t already done so by the time their child was six authorities, but I am sure that colleagues will have a months old. I think that more research like that would different view. be helpful. Phillip Noyes: I agree with the view that we should start early, but where there are concerns by people Q436 Pat Glass: Can I ask you about how we trusting their judgment—health professionals, schools support social workers from becoming inured to and social workers—and they are worried, that seems neglect? I am not an expert in child protection, but I to be what Professor Munro is really getting at in have been around it and worked around it for a long terms of the good use of professional judgment. time. I can remember thinking, “It’s not the point at Something has happened in the last few years. Before which I can’t sleep that’s a problem; it’s the point at the upsurge in neglect cases were coming to court, which I can sleep.” How do we support social workers people were saying, “The significant harm test can’t from simply becoming inured to neglect because they be met. We can’t go. It’s not bad enough.” Perhaps see it and work with it every day? they were getting that advice from local authority Enver Solomon: I think training and continuous lawyers. But something has happened, and they have professional development are key here, particularly on been going to court, orders have been made, and issues in relation to child development, emotional, CAFCASS has been saying recently that these cases intellectual and behavioural developments and how were not inappropriate. parental behaviour impacts on those. I think that So I think the new learning—I am sure that we will training and professional development could be get better at understanding what has happened in those substantially improved in those areas, and there was a cases in the next couple of years—would be for recognition of that from the taskforce and the work professionals to trust their judgment. If they are that Moira Gibb led. In addition to that, effective worried, because they cannot live with these families management support for front-line social workers is and monitor everything they do every day, they should absolutely critical. Alongside that, the issue of case put the matter to court to be tested by court. loads really matters. It is not simply just about case loads, but it is a contributory factor that is very Q435 Pat Glass: One of the things that I have found important, because the number of case loads an to be quite successful—it is awful to have to do this— individual social worker is managing impacts on their was to sit in a child protection case conference and ability to reflect, to properly assess, to make good- say, “I am making a note of my views here and quality decisions and to discuss their judgments with everyone else’s, and the fact that you don’t think that their professional peers immediately, in other agencies this is serious enough.” Suddenly, you find that the and with their managers. The combination of those social worker thinks, “Oh my god. There’s a record things is really important. of this,” and it changes. That shouldn’t happen for Chair: Does anyone else have anything to add? a child. Kate Wallace: We would see that as a key area for the Phillip Noyes: I did a bit of homework before coming Children’s Workforce Development Council and the here. I caught a glimpse of an Ofsted report from College of Social Work to look at in terms of some 2009–10, talking about thresholds, and there was an training around that, particularly in terms of interesting differentiation between some well development, attachment and the impact of neglect performing and some poorly performing authorities. on those. In the well performing ones, there would be a threshold and it would be understood. In situations Q437 Pat Glass: Do you think that social workers like the one that you’ve been in, and you’re taking a should have, as part of their contract, a period of time note, what else would happen? Would it be escalated when they are away from the front line and seeing to a more senior level to have a discussion locally neglect on a daily basis, so that they can come back about what is the local mandate and the local and get some perspective about what is a non- threshold for action? Is it understood between neglective circumstance? agencies? That feels like, in those circumstances, the Phillip Noyes: Not quite. There is a critical role for a right thing to do. first-line manager in challenging the social workers’ Another point is from the same report, saying that in assumptions in both directions: one is that a family is well performing authorities, it wasn’t a question of basically good enough, and you get immune to it, or black or white; you’re not on one side of the line or that a person is over-optimistic. What feels important the other. There is a question of where people are is to decide either that the agency cannot deal with really getting stressed out about a case, like your this family and that it needs to be left to monitoring example, there would be a process of negotiation and by health and other agencies, or that, if it is on the consultation, often with the ring being held by the books, the social worker should not have a sleepful common assessment framework co-ordinator, to have night—something positive should be done to try to a really good and fresh look at what is actually test the parents’ capacity to parent. There is quite a happening in that family. Both of those feel desirable lot of evidence now that, if you are going to impact in the current climate to deal with your concern. on parenting, it is going to show within about six Kate Wallace: I was just going to say that we’ve got months and you can make a difference to the way the only limited research at the moment about capacity of person parents. It would be to suggest to the first-line parents to change. The issue with the Loughborough manager of the social worker who is sleeping again to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon make the case management very active, with very happening with older young people, who, perhaps clear objectives, over a time-limited period. understandably because of tragedies such as Victoria Climbié and Baby Peter, get overlooked, certainly in Q438 Pat Glass: What does the evidence tell us public. A number of the agencies that made about critical points of intervention? Are there points submissions to us highlighted their concerns about at which, if we do not intervene, intervention becomes older young people who are at risk of harm. Can you less effective? Or is it always useful to intervene, at tell me why you think that older young people are in whatever point? danger of being overlooked by the child protection Enver Solomon: There is evidence that, if decisions system and what ought to be done about it? are not taken early when there is a clear case of Enver Solomon: We have highlighted a number of neglect and it becomes persistent and chronic, the factors in our research, but maybe I could start with a impact on that child or young person is considerable quote that came from a professional in the work that and substantial and, if you like, deeper and greater. we did jointly with the NSPCC. The professional said, Particularly, there is also evidence that it has a “We can’t rush out to a 16 year old who’s perhaps significant impact on older children in terms of sofa-surfing and perhaps experimenting with drugs behaviours such as offending, substance misuse, and and getting into crime, you know that’s a big worry, so forth, which seriously impact on their future but we can’t prioritise that when we’re working with development. 0 to 5 year olds in, you know, some pretty dire Phillip Noyes: My answer would be early age, the situations.” That reflects the fact that risky behaviour younger the better. by older children is deemed to be less of a priority when individuals are having to make difficult Q439 Pat Glass: So it is much more effective to judgments and prioritise the decisions that they take. intervene early? If you leave it till later, you are less Perceptions and how young people’s behaviour is likely to have change? perceived is critically important. Our work shows that Phillip Noyes: The baby is so malleable and so 11 to 17-year-olds were seen as more competent to vulnerable that it is the earlier the better. Having deal with maltreatment, including being able to escape missed that opportunity, the task later is to ensure that the situation and seek help. They were perceived by the case management does not drift and that very some professionals as more resilient—i.e. they were specific time goals are set for the work. more able to cope with neglect and maltreatment. They were likely to be seen as contributing to and Q440 Chair: How important will the increase in exacerbating the situation through indulging in risky health visitor numbers be? How important is their role behaviours, rather than being at risk themselves. There in intervening early with the most vulnerable young were a number of obstacles as well. children? Enver Solomon: I think they have a role, but I would Q443 Lisa Nandy: Sorry to interrupt, but I want to draw your attention to the recent report by the NHS ask you about that. That is an important question. Are Confederation, which raised concerns about overall there circumstances in which it is right to hold young levels of primary care health support. The make-up of people responsible for their own behaviour and to ask teams, the multi-disciplinary mix, has been affected in those young people to act for themselves to change some areas by the rush to increase the numbers of health visitors, but I think they do play a pivotal role that behaviour? I ask that in the context of young for younger children. It is important to recognise that people telling me repeatedly over the past 10 years for older children they are going to have much less that they find it very difficult, because help and impact. support is often focused on those young people who act out and who do not play by the rules. Those young Q441 Chair: I am unclear on their role. Is it people who do play by the rules feel that that is primarily a signposting role to other services, which incredibly unfair. Is there an element in that need to be there before signposting is much use phenomenon that you are talking about where that is anyway, or do they actually play an intervention role quite helpful? themselves? Will the increase in numbers, in and of Enver Solomon: I think that part of engaging itself, improve service quality and the likelihood of effectively with a young person is about giving them intervention? the capacity to take responsibility and recognising Phillip Noyes: It is a bit of both, but resources are with them that they have responsibilities themselves. such that it is mainly signposting, although when a health visitor is concerned about a child, she—they Q444 Lisa Nandy: But that requires intervention. are normally women—will find time to help. They are Enver Solomon: If you are talking about a young incredibly important. One of the earliest projects I did person who has experienced significant trauma or loss was in Manchester helping a group of health visitors in their life, who has experienced significant neglect know when to trust their judgment and refer to social and abuse and who does not have the capacity to services and keep on pushing the button. That was 30 empathise with others, that will be extremely difficult, years ago, and it has not changed very much. They but it is part of the engagement process with that are absolutely critical. young person. Let me be very clear, this is not about making excuses for behaviour. This is about Q442 Lisa Nandy: One of the reasons why we were addressing a young person’s behaviour that is putting keen to do this inquiry was to explore what is them in dangerous situations and potentially causing cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon harm to others and ensuring that it is addressed in the not recognise it either. We need to bear that in mind most effective way. as well. We certainly have a particular issue about Phillip Noyes: I think we need a different mindset child sexual exploitation and how it is often not from thinking that the solution to helping young viewed as a child protection issue. people is intervention. We did a bit of research a while ago and asked some 18 to 24-year-olds who had been Q447 Chair: Enver, I saw you shaking your head at sexually abused how it stopped. Only 4% said that it one stage when Phillip was talking. Tell us where stopped because of people like us. They did not want you disagree. to touch us with a bargepole. For the rest, it stopped Enver Solomon: Personally, I don’t think it’s an because the perpetrator went away, they individually either/or. I think there is quite a lot of peer support had stopped it, someone that they loved or trusted had work out there; we are just not necessarily conscious stopped it for them, or it had not stopped. I think that of it taking place. We have what we call a squad of if we are looking at how young people who have been young people, for want of a better term, who work abused—there are lots of them—who have not told with other young people who go missing and run anybody, and if they did, they told their friends, we away from home, as a means of engagement. But that need to think of a new kind of help that gets them is alongside our specialist staff, who play a very friends and peers to talk to, which helps them decide important role building relationships with young when it is appropriate to talk and when not. people. I cannot over-emphasise enough the importance of a professional who can develop that Q445 Lisa Nandy: How do you achieve that trusting relationship. Often, the voluntary sector is without intervention? able to do that very well, because it does not have Phillip Noyes: It is a different kind of public the perceived suspicions associated with social care or education and a different kind of intervention from others. I am not particularly bothered about who that that offered by special professionals through LSCBs. trusted professional is, but it needs to be someone who It has much more of a feel of peer support and has the capacity to form a relationship and work with volunteerism of information. One of the things that that young person. Talk to any person whose life has you will have heard from my colleague from fallen apart—it is very evident when you talk to ChildLine is about the increase in the number of 16 people in the deep end of the criminal justice system; to 18-year-olds calling ChildLine. There is a message I have spoken to many in custody—and they say, “The getting through that it is socially respectable for a 16 one thing that made a difference to me was a to 18-year-old to ask somebody for help. If they can relationship with someone who understood me, who I do that privately, without disclosing their name and trusted and who was able to support me to move on without losing control of what happens to them, then in life.” good for them. We need to think about how we make that happen more and more systematically. Q448 Lisa Nandy: In the submissions that we got about older young people, trafficked children came up Q446 Lisa Nandy: One of my concerns about that is quite a lot, along with migrants, homelessness and that many of the young people who I have worked young people in the criminal justice system. It strikes with in the past—particularly refugee and migrant me that many of those are young people who do not children—are friends with other children who are in a naturally fall within the remit of the Department for similar situation, so their expectations are much lower. Education, and for whom policy responsibility is held They are very reluctant to go to authority for help. It by various different Departments. Do you think that is quite a challenge to think that we could put a culture the change from the Department for Children, Schools like that in place without any kind of formal structure and Families to the Department for Education has of intervention. been a good or a bad thing, or has it had no impact Phillip Noyes: It is, but I think that there is more than on those young people? Is Government sufficiently one way to skin a cat. For example, we offer a service joined-up to see these young people as children to to voluntary groups, which is Government funded, to whom they have a child protection responsibility, and simply equip them to know what to do if a child wants does the structure of Departments make a difference? to talk to them about something sensitive to do with Chair: Brief answers, please. abuse. That kind of approach is effective, and it is Enver Solomon: We have a Minister responsible for wanted. There are forums in which these young children’s safeguarding who is very committed and people go and meet. Wouldn’t it be good if we could knowledgeable, and we welcome that, as indeed does equip them to offer soft-touch starter help, so that the the sector, but I think there isn’t effective cross- young person could decide what to do—live with it, Government working. We know from our work with do something about it or, the 4%, come to us? children in the immigration process that the UKBA Kate Wallace: One of the key issues that we’ve got is and the Home Office duty around safeguarding is not about child sexual exploitation among that older age delivered as effectively as it should be, and that there group. One of the concerns about that is that services isn’t a link-up with other agencies. We have real don’t recognise it as a child protection issue. It often concerns, particularly in relation to children who are doesn’t hit the thresholds. That’s been anecdotally trafficked and are in the immigration system, that shown from our side and from others. One of the key duties around safeguarding and welfare of the child problems causing an issue in this area is that often, are not always prioritised. the children themselves and their families might not see it as an exploitative relationship. Their peers might Q449 Chair: So what do you propose? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon
Enver Solomon: I think that the duty for those to control it and thus were more prepared to engage children, where there are clear child protection issues, with it? needs to be with a Department that has clear Enver Solomon: There need to be very clear responsibility and lead for that within Government. In mechanisms for them to have a participatory role in other words it should sit with the Department for the process and to facilitate that role through things Education. like the right to advocacy—advocacy and advocacy support is one of the most effective and obvious ways Q450 Chair: Does anyone want to add to that? Do to facilitate that. It is also about how local areas reach you both agree with what Enver said? out to that young person and ensure that they are well Phillip Noyes and Kate Wallace indicated assent. informed about the process. Often young people say to us that they do not understand the child protection Q451 Craig Whittaker: We have already heard process; they are not clear how it is supposed to work about all the 16 to 18-year-olds contacting ChildLine. to address their concerns and to facilitate their We have heard from Enver about how there is quite a involvement and active inclusion in it. lot of peer support that works alongside, but how and Phillip Noyes: Two answers. One was a difference in from whom do older young people generally tend to the solutions to being at home or being in care. For seek advice? Do services offer help in appropriate children of that age something else is probably needed forms? For example, is there a difference between the rather than removal to care, to do with finding ways effectiveness of statutory compared to voluntary of minimising risk at home. services? We know that one of the things that young people Phillip Noyes: I think there is probably a misfit. The really mind about is confidentiality, and one could say child protection system over the years has really been that maybe the conventions of confidentiality are more geared to dealing with abuse that happens at wrong for this age group. There is a wisdom about home within families. Young people are experiencing information sharing, so information is shared at a level a range of abuse, as was indicated earlier, out of home within the LSCB framework where there might be a as well. Because they are older, assumptions are made risk of significant harm to the child. There is a good about their resilience. case to be made, I think, for operating with a higher It is not clear what would be the best way of enabling level of confidentiality—say at the serious harm young people to access face-to-face help and level—when older young people refer themselves, so intervention. I do not think we have got that right, and that they know they can talk to a professional in I do not have a view of that. What we have found is confidence and it will not be whisked around the local that young people are incredibly receptive to talking agencies the following moment. That is quite not at the face-to-face level, but over the internet controversial, but from the point of view of young using online services. We do not have a solution in people, they really mind what is confidential and what this country where we can find face-to-face help for is not. young people that they will go and look for, because it tends to be stigmatising. They tend to be worried Q454 Craig Whittaker: We spoke primarily about about losing control when they interact with children in the care system or who have been referred, somebody more formally. but are they able to refer themselves to social Enver Solomon: To be blunt about it, the child services? Is that an option, and if so, should it be made protection system as it is currently configured is not more available for young people? working as well as it should be for older children. Too Enver Solomon: That is a good point, and our many services are neglecting their needs, and that has experience is that there is not as much self-referral, as come through very strongly in the research work. I think Phillip was indicating that there should be. There is a real need to encourage self-referral. That Q452 Chair: Is that primarily statutory, or primarily needs to be done through better information, reaching the voluntary sector? Is there is a qualitative out to young people and them having confidence that difference in the way older children are treated? systems are there to work for them and in their Enver Solomon: I think it is primarily statutory interests, as well as addressing all the other factors. agencies, but I also think there is now less available for older children across the board. There are a Q455 Craig Whittaker: Do we know what number of issues here that I have already touched on. percentage of young people refer themselves? Professionals feel that it is difficult to engage young Phillip Noyes: It is tiny. And you think, “Why would people for a range of reasons, such as older children they?” Adults do not know what happens when they and young people themselves not wanting to engage refer people to social services—whatever would in child protection conferences, or practitioners happen to a young person that did that? There is an feeling that the child protection process as it is awful long way to go, if one was going to elicit self- currently configured does not always allow young referral, to make it safe for young people to refer. people sufficient opportunity to control the process and to have a say in the process, which is particularly Q456 Craig Whittaker: We had a trip to a children’s important for this age group. Advocacy can play an home in Barnsley some weeks ago now. It became important role in achieving that. very clear that a couple of young people there were really eager to leave once they turned 16. Is this Q453 Chair: What would that look like—changing common and, if so, what kind of support do we give the system so that older young people felt better able these young people for the transition? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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Enver Solomon: The numbers moving out of care at Q460 Craig Whittaker: I get what you are saying 16 have actually declined in recent years, because about the assumptions. What we are trying to get at is there has been much greater effort to support them up what actually happens. We can assume and we can to the age of 18, which is absolutely right. There are say we have this policy and that policy, but actually still issues around cliff-edge support for children the question is: does it work and is it working? leaving the care system. There have undoubtedly been Enver Solomon: The reality is that provision exiting some improvements, and it was recognised by the out of care and transitioning from care is not previous Government and this Government as being consistently good. There is certainly room for one of the key issues for children in care. But I think improvement. We work with a lot of children in care the challenge here is to support the young person in councils, and we come across cases where there has terms of what they think is best for them; to have not been effective support. I do not think access to flexibility around that, because some young people supported accommodation and the provision of will be in a better position about taking on supported accommodation in the number of independence than others; and to make sure that placements are sufficient, so there is certainly room— independence is about supported transition and supporting independence. Q461 Chair: Can you put that in the form of a recommendation? Our bemoaning, in our report, the Q457 Craig Whittaker: Do we really do that well, fact that, although there have been improvements, though? I know we have the pathway planning and there is a long way to go, does not actually create the stuff, but my experience is that pathway planning is so framework or the drivers to get something inconsistent across the country, wherever you find it. measureable. What we need is some metrics or steps Enver Solomon: It is, yes. There is certainly room that we can measure and materially see a difference for improvement. and an improvement in the outcomes for these young people. Q458 Craig Whittaker: So, room for improvement Enver Solomon: I think that the new sufficiency duty or is there actually a long way to go? around placements for looked-after children needs to Enver Solomon: Some of the reforms have been well genuinely extend to placements transitioning out of intentioned, but there is still a long way to go. care with appropriate monitoring in place by central Kate Wallace: The other thing we have been looking government. at is numbers coming into care at that age group. That is actually quite high, so that is another issue to bear Q462 Chair: One of the big things that we see again in mind as well. Our view would be about the stability and again when dealing with children suffering of placements. For older children, placements are less neglect abuse is the need for stable relationships. The stable—they are more likely to come in and out of churn of social workers and of care workers of one care. We know that the research will tell us that that sort or another is a big issue. We talk about older can be quite damaging, and the most damaging aspect children—we see them at 16, and it might move up of it is the instability. slightly to 17—ending up in a bedsit with new I would agree with a lot of what Enver was saying relationships and there isn’t a continuity of care or a but, for us, we would want to see a flexibility in the trusted adult, or possibly adults, to support them care system so that there is a flexibility of placements through those years. The best educated, best supported that suit the needs of that particular child, and a and most loved children in the country are struggling recognition that older children have quite distinct in their early 20s to make sense of life, yet here are needs and that some aspects of the care system may the most vulnerable and disadvantaged children work better for them than others. I would agree with lacking that basic support. How can we change the some of Phillip’s points about different types of care system so that we have those stable relationships and looking at different aspects of that in terms of maintained for those young people? Are there any minimising the risk at home and using stuff like thoughts on that, assuming that my premise is right? respite care and that type of thing. There is quite a bit Enver Solomon: Yes, I think your premise is right. I of work to be done here. made the point about the sufficiency duty and that it genuinely applies to supported accommodation on Q459 Craig Whittaker: Bearing in mind what Enver transition out of care. It is about access to quality said earlier about resilience—that there is a natural support and transition planning and pathway planning. presumption that older young people have a higher Equally, there is a role here for reviewing the level of resilience—does that mean we give them the effectiveness of the IRO and the extent to which the level of support that you say should be happening or IRO is actively holding the authority to account for that we don’t? effective pathway planning and access to support Kate Wallace: I would agree with Enver saying that around befriending and advocates as well. I would be there is an assumption—certainly one we found—that happy to submit some specific key recommendations older children automatically have higher resilience, to the Committee. but some of the research that is around will tell you Chair: Yes, we would very much welcome that. about the impact of long-term and chronic neglect on Thank you. development, abstract reasoning and thinking. Some of the neurological stuff would challenge some of Q463 Pat Glass: Can I bring you back to thresholds? those assumptions for some older children, but How much of a problem is this variation over the, I obviously it is different for different children. think, 151 local authorities that we have now? Is there cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon a case for standardisation and what would you necessarily Gateshead but in the surrounding area— recommend to get better standardisation? that have a pretty good reputation in this field but are Phillip Noyes: Yes, it is a problem. currently dismantling the services they have put together because of the level of cuts in local Q464 Pat Glass: What would you recommend to government finance they are facing. make it better? Enver Solomon: Yes. That is the reality of a situation Phillip Noyes: From our experience, the problem is that is still being played out. We still don’t know how both across and within local authorities sometimes. As it is going to impact. The issue around resources has we have discussed already in relation to your example always been there and is more relevant today than about the health visitors, the problems can be very before. In our work we have experienced some local indeed. It goes against the grain of the current children’s social care departments using deflection approach to want to centralise and to create a national strategies at the point of referral to try to reduce the threshold—I understand that—but it seems absolutely number of cases accepted. There is what we describe obvious that the local Safeguarding Children Boards as strategic deferment, when the referral is sent back should define local thresholds so that the agencies to the referrer to ask for more information about the understand what’s going to happen locally. It seems case. There is also signposting, when they say that it self-evident—I hope it is—that they get some help in could be signposted to more appropriate agencies, and formulating those kinds of thresholds from central they question the quality of the preparation work. Government. There is clearly a tendency at a time of reduced resources to move towards more gatekeeping Q465 Pat Glass: Is any Government guidance issued, measures. That is the reality, but it needs to be or is it just the legislation and each local authority addressed through effective inspection arrangements finds its own salvation in its own way? and careful monitoring of resources and resource Enver Solomon: The Working Together guidance is allocation. very clear and actually quite detailed and prescriptive, Phillip Noyes: I slightly disagree. In the Working and I think the Government sees it as too prescriptive. Together guidelines over many years, a lot of time and I don’t think we are in a world whereby we will have space have been spent describing roles and a national threshold that will be sent down to local responsibilities. They are inter-agency guidelines authorities and that they will be hauled over the coals about how people work together. People in a local if evidence suggests that those thresholds are not area will know who does the medical examination and being met. We need to look at the key determining what health visitors are supposed to do. It seems factors that are often highlighted in some of the Ofsted wrong to me that there is not the same deliberateness reports that Phillip referred to that determine good about what to expect from each other when you make practice and good quality decision making. a referral, and what kind of referral you make will get In my mind, it is not an issue about thresholds; it is a positive response and when you can expect not to about good quality decision making that takes place get a response. It feels important to tackle that, in the best interests of the child. A number of things although it is obviously very politically sensitive to that colleagues and I have referred to would address do that. that—issues around case loads and around Enver Solomon: Do you not think the current professional support and training; issues around how guidance spells that out clearly enough? managers support front-line workers; and, in Phillip Noyes: No. particular, a better understanding of child Enver Solomon: So, would you like more detail, development and the nature of neglect, and a better specifically? Is that at the point— understanding around working with older children, with teenagers, and the differential experiences of teenagers. If you address all those elements and ensure Q467 Chair: If I may, Enver, I will allow the that they are effectively in place, you would get good Committee to ask the questions. quality decision making. That is borne out in those Enver Solomon: I am curious to flesh that out. I think inspectorate reports of areas where it has been found it is an interesting point. that there is good quality decision making and where thresholds are deemed to be at an appropriate level. Q468 Pat Glass: There are similar tensions, as I have A number of factors impact on thresholds in local mentioned before, in special needs referrals. In the areas. The working group under the previous authorities where I have worked when we get what Government identified a range of them around local we consider inappropriate referrals from schools—as cultures, management and resourcing. It would be happens consistently—that is seen as a training issue. worthwhile for the Government to seek to understand Someone from the authority would sit down with the the current factors determining the differentiation in school and say, “You are making these referrals and local thresholds, as well as to concentrate on the they are not appropriate,” or “Why do you think they package of measures that is going to lead to better- are appropriate?” There is some kind of follow-up. quality decision making. The evidence we received from an entire panel, including GPs and teachers, was that there is often no Q466 Ian Mearns: Most people would accept most response. You send a referral, it disappears into the of that in most areas. As we know, there are different ether and nothing ever comes back to say that it has positions around the country. I am certainly aware of not been accepted, or why it has not been accepted. Is local authorities in the north of England—not that something we could give guidance on? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon
Phillip Noyes: It is important to deal with these things lot of older children, is the support provided to locally. We refer out from our national helpline to teenagers, older children, if they don’t meet local authorities and we sample them. We did a thresholds, and the kind of packages of support that sample of 2,500 last year. Where there is a gross abuse are available there and the targeted support. There is in referral—something very serious—generally there a risk that resources drift away from that age group is a good predictable response. Anything less than that and in particular there is reduced universal provision. is really not predictable, either between authorities or There isn’t an equivalent of the resource that is going within an authority. It can be a local fiefdom in part into children’s centres, for example, which will impact of a borough that gets a particular response, rather on provision and the kind of support available for than something that is officially sanctioned by the older children and that is of great concern to us. management of the organisation. It feels important Phillip Noyes: The NSPCC has currently reorganised that that is dealt with properly. I would prefer to see its services to try to innovate and look at that question. something said centrally, even though there cannot be If I may, could I send you something to describe the a national threshold, about expectations about services that we have chosen to try out in this country referrals. I certainly think it is a requirement of local either from scratch or where there have been Safeguarding Children Boards to do that in relation to successes abroad, particularly in the States, which child abuse referrals. have not been tried here? We are trialling one in particular, as Enver has flagged, that is like the family- Q469 Pat Glass: Kate, can I ask you about nurse partnership, called “Minding the Baby”. We are Barnardo’s submission? It suggested that instead of doing that with Yale. It is an intensive support having a system where cases are either open or closed package for young parents with babies. We are also there could be some stepping up or stepping down. trialling a programme called “Safe care” in the field How would that work in practice? of neglect, which is based on some American learning Kate Wallace: You need to be a bit more sophisticated about the particular issues in family life that should about how much services or how much intervention be targeted to make the most difference over a shortish you put in place and how much monitoring you keep period of time on parenting. If I may, I’ll send you a of a case and of a child’s situation with a bit more of briefing on those. an understanding about what that situation is rather Kate Wallace: The majority of our services are family than closing a case completely. I suppose I see it as support and parenting services. We do some evidence- quite self-explanatory. I know that I am not describing based interventions and evidence-based programmes it particularly well. They are still there and in the but we also grow some of our own and develop our system to some extent— own types of programmes so we can send you some information as well. For different types of children in Q470 Pat Glass: I guess what I am asking is would different circumstances with different parents there are there be any legal issues with this, because there are different programmes and interventions that can so many definitions of children in care, children work effectively. looked after etcetera. Would it cause difficulties legally if you just kept cases open indefinitely? Q471 Damian Hinds: Can I turn it around a bit? Kate Wallace: No, I don’t think so. Following the Field report and the Allen report, there Phillip Noyes: I ran a child protection register and was a lot of heightened interest in this area. For one of the really important points—I agree with the obvious reasons, because of the title of this inquiry, point that has been made—is to be completely clear most of what we have been talking about this morning which is which. If you are monitoring a case you need is about what happens when things go wrong. There to be absolutely clear that that is what you doing and is another big question about the programmes that you you are not doing anything else. A number of the have put in place to try to make things go right as serious case reviews will have highlighted alleged much as possible. The family-nurse partnership casework management as active casework when in always gets mentioned as the successful evidence- fact it has not been, it has simply been monitoring. based programme. It is very high-intensity and Damian Hinds: Enver, you touched on the Munro therefore quite high cost, and therefore it cannot really report, statutory duty and so on. In terms of families be done on a massive wide scale. Do you know of or cases that do not meet the threshold, in your programmes that are perhaps of lower intensity, lower experience what are the interventions or programmes cost and more widely applicable, which have good that are most effective and which are the most track records in terms of trying to stop some of the widely available? problems appearing in the first place? Enver Solomon: The NSPCC is currently piloting Enver Solomon: There is a range of programmes. The some programmes particularly in relation to infants. Blueprints work at the University of Colorado has We know the evidence from family-nurse partnerships looked at a number of programmes that are less is very strong. I just heard David Olds talking about intense such as family functional therapy, which is this on the radio earlier this week. He is behind the being used in New York State, and which has been family-nurse partnership and the work that was used here on a much smaller scale. More expensive pioneered in Colorado and that now we are piloting and intensive is multi-systemic therapy. here. There are some good programmes, particularly I do not think though that we should get away from those that inform better quality health visiting. The the issue of resources, which is something that Phillip challenge from our perspective, because we run a and I were talking about before we came in. The 1989 number of children’s centres but we also work with a Act was constructed on the assumption that it was not cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
Ev 88 Education Committee: Evidence
11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon just about providing resources to meet the needs of parents for parenting older children or for children children who reached child protection thresholds. It with specific needs—for example, mental health was very much constructed with the assumption that problems that might come up later on. That type of children in need broadly would be provided with thing needs to be borne in mind as well, which echoes support. Arguably, the system has never been Enver’s point. I agree with the other point about effectively resourced and implemented to deliver on resources—the impact of resource cuts, on early that. To be blunt, we can tinker with resourcing and intervention in particular, and what that will mean in adopting these programmes there and those terms of the whole system. Over 60% of the cuts that programmes here, but fundamentally, unless local we have felt have hit early intervention types of areas are going to be resourcing provision right across service. the scale of need, there will be a limited impact. Phillip Noyes: We are trying something one back Q475 Damian Hinds: We have a new focus from the from early intervention, which is a more public Government on the 120,000 most troubled families. education approach to a specific issue to do with We know that is a statistical construct; we do not shaking babies. In the States they have had some actually know exactly who the families are, although success in telling brand-new parents about the damage you would probably say that you do know, broadly, to children from shaking them. We are running it in who some of them are. First, do you welcome the 12 sites in this country to see if we can get a similar initiative? Secondly, operationally, as that approach is kind of effect here. That obviously would be very rolled out, what would you advise Government and exciting if it is successful, because it is low unit cost local authorities to do to make the most of it to reduce and very wide population. child abuse and neglect? Enver Solomon: My organisation has cautiously Q472 Damian Hinds: Whether shaken babies or welcomed it. There is a danger of fixating on a group otherwise, how much of the emphasis do you think of families who develop, in the public discourse, a should be pre-birth? Speaking as a relatively recent kind of mythology, which becomes attached to them. new parent myself, it is amazing how much stuff We must recognise that families move in and out of people tell you about how much pain you are going crisis. Shocks to families can push them into crisis, to be in in labour, and how little they tell you about and then they can get over those shocks. It is about what will happen thereafter when you get the baby giving all families resilience and support. There will home. That is just an observation. It comes as quite be those who are in greatest need. The family a shock. intervention projects model is a very good one, but Phillip Noyes: It is critical. there is a danger that resources drift to particular Enver Solomon: I was going to say it is crucial. That groups of families. A universal offer, and targeting is one of the key features of the family-nurse within it, are critical. partnership programme, and there is research evidence Kate Wallace: I agree. Speaking from previous to prove it. I would like to stress to the Committee experience, before I worked at Barnardo’s, I was that the pre-birth period, the early years and infancy looking at rationalising services within that group and are critically important, but things can go wrong in at some of the innovative models. You are seeing a child’s life later on. There are critical triggers and where there is duplication of services within families transition points. Some of the obvious ones are when in that group and stripping out some of that there is conflict in the home, a crisis in the home, or a duplication and rationalising it. A local authority in breakdown in relationships in the home. The transition Scotland had a budget for developing innovative from primary to secondary is absolutely a critical services, exactly for looking at those in families with point in a child’s life. If we are looking at particularly multiple and complex needs. It found that it did not the histories of young people who end up in the youth need to use that budget by the time it had stripped justice system, there is very clear evidence that that out the duplication, looked at innovative models and juncture in that young person’s life is pivotal, and we slightly changed the models that it had, but, as I said, need to do much better at configuring support at that that was my experience before Barnardo’s. point. Q476 Damian Hinds: Would you recommend Q473 Damian Hinds: What would you do? There is particular local authorities as poster children for this, a new summer school proposal. in terms of success stories that you have come across Enver Solomon: There is. in the past? Who has done it best? Kate Wallace: I was talking about my experience Q474 Damian Hinds: Is that in line with the sorts before coming to England. of things— Enver Solomon: There is, but it is small numbers. It Q477 Damian Hinds: Okay. Was that in Scotland or is well intentioned, but we need that on a bigger and somewhere else? better scale. We need support to schools to provide Kate Wallace: Yes, Scotland. additional help to those children, and primary schools Damian Hinds: That’s not too far away; we are still will be able to tell them which children to look out talking—at this point. for and provide additional support for. Kate Wallace: Certainly, that should be looked into, Kate Wallace: I was just going to say that in our because there is obviously a different framework. experience a lot of parenting programmes focus on Phillip Noyes: I might be a bit naive, but I welcome parenting babies and do not focus on preparing the notion of focusing on the most troubled families— cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon not necessarily the number—because the reality in ostensibly be an increase, but actually, overall, it child protection is that there are worst cases in every might not be a rise. There was also an indication in town, with files piled high. They are multi- their analysis that some authorities have done better generational, they involve intra-familial and extra- out of the grant than other authorities, so it is a familial abuse, and people are stuck. I welcome it if complex picture. it is an initiative to encourage a fresh look—on a case- The issue around ring-fencing is also important. It is by-case basis, with inter-agency planning—at these not just about the resource allocation, it is about how most entrenched families, who are very difficult to resources will be spent within local areas. One needs impact on. I thought it was a good thing to do. to take into account the overall package on universal Enver Solomon: We need to be mindful, not just of provision for older children as well, and youth case-based intervention, but of place-based support. Different local areas are making different intervention. If we are talking about communities and decisions on levels of funding for that. their importance in providing resilience to families Phillip Noyes: There was a survey recently of within them, we must not lose sight of the importance expected cuts in children’s social care in the year of a place-based approach as well as an individual, 2012–13, and it averaged out at 24%. The authorities case-based one. are now saying that it is not going to be as bad as that, and they said they were not cutting their hard core Q478 Damian Hinds: What do you mean? You’ve child protection section 47-type budgets, but what was lost me. going was the early intervention budgets. When we Enver Solomon: If you are talking about individual did the report we published a few weeks ago, our take cases, you are talking about pinpointing particular families, who you then direct resources to; if you are out of that was that, okay, yes, you should prioritise talking about a more place-based approach, you the urgent risk today on the prevention of risk identify particular areas. You can do that within tomorrow, but actually that is a false economy in the wards, even in a very specific area, where you know medium to long term. They say they are not cutting that there are indices of levels of need. You look at as extensively as that, though, so we are asking them building resilience in those communities, not just again and updating the report. targeting individual families. The thing that I feel really concerned about is that there is a gap in our mindset, in my view, between the Q479 Chair: May I go back to the issues of resources child protection section 47-type funding and universal and place? You have suggested that there is a problem services, and the gap is not filled by the notion of because of local government funding at the moment, children in need, because it never has been—there are but there is the increase in health visitors and the very too many of them to afford to give help to. What we expensive extension of nursery education to two-year- should be thinking a bit more about is who should be olds in the Education Act that has just gone through— most targeted to get early intervention because they it is getting on towards half a billion pounds a year, if present the greatest risk to children—although I remember rightly, to provide that, and that was academics will disagree, we broadly know who they before it was up from 20% of young people to 40%, are—and we should be thinking about looking at the so it is a very big investment. Then you have the level of funding to those families with whom there Government talking about trying to pool funding would be some overlap with the 120,000 problem across agencies, because they said that there was so families, but there sometimes would not be. much money being spent supporting particularly troubled families and they needed to look at it more Q480 Chair: There is also the investment, as Damian holistically. Trying to draw that together, I am trying talked about, of identifying families at risk before they to get a sense from you—obviously, there are actually have a problem and trying to ensure they get positives and negatives, because of the overall it right first time, so that we do not have the problems. financial situation—whether the situation is expected Phillip Noyes: Excuse me for saying, we do not really to improve or deteriorate. How exactly do all the have a notion of that in the legislation. You are either resourcing issues balance out? There are cuts in some in need, or you are in need of protection. The Prime areas, but quite significant increases in others. What Minister’s new category of problem family, I think, is is the overview where you sit? a different notion. Actually, reintroducing a notion of Enver Solomon: We do not know what the Chancellor who is at risk and who we should be targeting first is planning for the next public spending round. If early does seem to me to be desirable. intervention is a core element of that spending round, then we would hope to see a resource boost. It should Enver Solomon: People in different parts of the be a core element. On the disadvantaged two-year- country and different agencies in different local areas olds offer, my understanding is that funding is rolled have different check lists for what constitutes risk, so into the early intervention grant. There is certainly a there is no consistency there either. There is merit in piece I read, as part of my preparation, in Children & looking at that. We are doing a piece of work with Young People Now, that has analysed the new financial NSPCC and Action for Children on this issue of the year spend on the early intervention grant, saying that 120,000, trying to calculate, based on macro and the funding for the disadvantaged two-year-olds offer micro-economic changes to spending, tax and is part of that grant. I would suggest that the benefits, whether the number is likely to increase or Committee look at that in more detail and try and not, given the Government’s plans, which I will be unpick that, because that clearly means that it might happy to share with the Committee when it is ready. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon
Q481 Ian Mearns: Where we have just come from children into care be recast to place greater emphasis is interesting, and Damien’s question has prompted on intervention when children are young? something in my mind, because in my neck of the Kate Wallace: I just go back to the point I made about woods in the north-east of England some health needing more research around parents’ ability and professionals just this weekend have accused some capacity to change, and more research like the expectant mothers of inflicting damage on their own Loughborough one, which had very small numbers children before they are born through foetal alcohol and was very hard to generalise. That has to form damage, but also through smoking, which is well part of the thinking, because what Loughborough was documented. Unfortunately, the north-east of England saying, as Phillip mentioned as well, was that for apparently has a higher prevalence of that than some parents, if they had not made the change before anywhere else in England. the child was six months old, they were not going to Phillip, the NSPCC’s written submission calls for make that change. More research to get more numbers consideration to be given to whether the protection about that would be helpful. system places too much importance on the rights of Phillip Noyes: It may have already changed but we do parents over those of the child. When the Children not quite know—I am thinking about neglect cases— Act was published, I remember some professionals because the wisdom hitherto was that to get a case to whom I was working with at the time saying that it court, you needed to do more than demonstrate should be called the Parent Act, because as it went significant harm. It was significant harm plus—some through the parliamentary process—this is going back extra seriousness that the court needed to be some time—in the view of many professionals, the convinced about. Given the passage of care importance and prominence of the interests of the proceedings on neglect cases recently, perhaps that parents came more to the fore than those of the child. has already changed. What feels important is simply Does the NSPCC stand by the view that was given in to keep the child’s interests paramount, and I would the submission? What do the rest of you think about reflect how easily we all can get pulled off course, that? deliberately and accidentally, when we try to do that. Phillip Noyes: The context was decision making around admission to care and that, in our experience, Q485 Ian Mearns: It has also been suggested to us professionals sometimes, especially in relation to by some people that the system takes the wrong neglect, were leaving the decisions too long and were children into care. Do you think there is any evidence too optimistic. They were looking to see the best in that authorities have applied for care orders in cases people, rather than identifying parents and rather than that did not warrant them, and if so, do you think that identifying the impact of time—duration—on the is widespread? child’s development. That is where we were coming Enver Solomon: I have not come across evidence that from, and we will stand by that. it is widespread. There will always be questions and individual cases that might be challenged, because Q482 Chair: What do you think of that, Kate? Would these are difficult judgments and there is scope for you agree with that insight? human error, but I have not come across consistent, Kate Wallace: Yes, we would agree with that. We widespread evidence of that. If I might just add: I do have seen some of that. not think that there is a right or wrong answer for the number of children who should be in care; I think Q483 Chair: Enver? it is about getting the decision right and having the Enver Solomon: Yes, there has been a tendency for paramountcy principle at the heart of it. professionals—it is about interpretation—to see their I do not think we know yet what has driven the role as balancing the parental rights and the child’s massive increase in the number of care applications rights. The legislation is very clear about the best that CAFCASS has reported—an increase of 97% in interests of the child needing to be at the forefront applications just in the period of April to July 2011, of decisions. compared to the same period in 2008–09. It is not Phillip Noyes: May I say that one of the changes in clear yet whether that is a result of a real need for social work practice over the last 10 or 20 years has protection—I think it probably does reflect that—and been a much greater consideration of the need to talk previously unmet need, rather than a change in to, listen to and work with the child directly? As a thresholds. It is not clear what is happening there. I reflection on the legislation, that is highly desirable, think it would be difficult to draw some firm too. conclusions just yet, but Phillip’s point that practice Enver Solomon: I think Munro’s fundamental point might be changing is important to take into account. about the system having to work with the child’s Phillip Noyes: There might be a question of whether interests at the heart of it is absolutely key, because social workers, as time goes on, are clear whether the that has a lot of implications for working practice and right child is in care or not. There is quite good working cultures. It actually means that social workers literature on decision making about sending children need to see children, particularly older children, as home from care where there is a high incidence of active participants and not just passive recipients. repeat abuse—some 46% in Elaine Farmer’s research—when the child goes home. Some 37% of Q484 Ian Mearns: So given that emphasis—the those children go back into care within two years. So clear emphasis that I agree with, that the interests of there might be a lack of clear case management and the child should be predominant in the decision- planning and certainly a lack of good assessment of making process—should thresholds for taking the home family before children go home. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o005_th_5 - Corrected (11-Jan-2012).xml
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11 January 2012 Phillip Noyes, Kate Wallace and Enver Solomon
Kate Wallace: There have been cases the other way in and around the courts who are not from social care round, where children have taken the local authority backgrounds have less of an understanding and to the European Court, saying that they should have training in child development needs, mean that been taken into care earlier. decisions are not being taken in a timely fashion. I think that, from our perspective, the critical outcome Q486 Lisa Nandy: Ministers currently have a strong is improving the timeliness of decision making, and focus on adoption. Martin Narey, who is conducting from that a number of benefits will flow. the review, gave evidence to our Committee. He It is important to recognise, overall, that even if the recently argued for a radical increase in the number outcome of Martin Narey’s review is an increase in of children who are adopted. Is this the right focus or adoptions, we are going to be talking about thousands, should the focus be on investing in stable foster care not tens of thousands; as a proportion of looked-after placements, particularly being mindful of the evidence children, the vast majority will always be in foster that you gave about older young people? placements and will not be adopted. There is a real Kate Wallace: Certainly, for older young people issue to ensure that we keep a focus on all placements, adoption is far less common, but I would go back to just as much as on adoption and the quality of those the point that I made about flexibility of placements placements and the stability. within the system and a whole-system approach that Kate Wallace: And we have a shortage of foster carers is working well—not just seeing adoption as a to look after older children as well, so that needs to holding option. be addressed. Chair: Can I thank the three of you very much for Q487 Lisa Nandy: What would you like to see as giving evidence to us this morning? Please write, as the outcome of the Government’s review? you have suggested you will, on a couple of issues. Enver Solomon: Personally, I think there is a clear Think about the recommendations that you would case to improve the speed and timeliness of decision hope we would make in our report and make sure that making in adoption cases. There is no doubt, from you have given us your suggestions for that final our practice experience, that the persistent requests for report. expert witness evidence, and the fact that often those cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Ev 92 Education Committee: Evidence
Wednesday 7 March 2012
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Neil Carmichael Ian Mearns Pat Glass Lisa Nandy Damian Hinds Craig Whittaker Charlotte Leslie ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Jennie Stephens, Strategic Director People, Devon County Council, Rory McCallum, Head, Child and Adult Protection, Devon County Council, Nigel Richardson, Director of Children’s Services, Leeds City Council, and Steve Walker, Deputy Director, Safeguarding, Specialist and Targeted Services, Leeds City Council, gave evidence.
Q488 Chair: Good morning. Thank you very much councillors and various others, are keener than ever to for joining us today as we continue our inquiry into ensure that there is safety. Can we escape a highly the child protection system in England. Has the vision bureaucratic system when there are people like Ofsted of Eileen Munro started to be delivered on the who want evidence and there are politicians who want ground? Are we seeing a less bureaucratic system, to be able to show that they are holding the system to with social workers able to spend more time account? Are we inevitably going to have front-line supporting families rather than form filling, and is workers in the highly complex world of social work there greater scope for professional autonomy in the filling in endless forms in order to show that they are field? doing whatever the latest flavour of the month is? Nigel Richardson: Yes and no would be the answer. Even if that flavour of the month is cutting Maybe I would ask people to consider going back to bureaucracy, they will doubtless have to provide whether the ambitions of the Children Act and Lord evidence to show that they are doing so. Laming’s recommendations in the Victoria Climbié Jennie Stephens: Any professional group has to have Inquiry are being realised. That remains a work in a degree of being able to evidence and explain their progress. If you combine those together with Eileen decisions and be accountable for those decisions. Munro’s work, there is increasing evidence of people Inevitably there is always going to be some returning to some of the core principles of why the bureaucracy in any system as complex as child services exist in the first place and looking at things protection. However, my view would be that there is very firmly through the eyes of a child: what is it like significant opportunity to look at whether we have to be a child or young person growing up in Leeds? bolted things on in the way that Nigel has been saying, What is it like to be a child or young person growing and to look at whether we can streamline whilst still up in Devon, etc? From that perspective they are maintaining the level of accountability we need to trying, through the existing legislation, to combine assure ourselves that the system is safe. agencies together through common purpose and language in a different way of doing things. Q491 Chair: There is an opportunity to look at Are the processes less bureaucratic? There has been whether we can, but the question is: are we? some change, some movement and some aspirations Jennie Stephens: Yes, I think we certainly are in towards that. Devon. We can talk at some point about the processes we have put in place in relation to how we share Q489 Chair: I take that as a no then? across agencies. That is a key part of reducing Nigel Richardson: What I would say is that we are bureaucracy. Our Multi-Agency Safeguarding Hub very good in this country at taking a simple idea and (MASH), which you have probably heard of, is a key then making it very complicated. What we have done part of our being able to share information in a timely unintentionally is put initiative on top of initiative on and succinct way to inform threshold decision top of initiative. In doing that, with the best will in making, rather than doing that sharing after we have the world, we have not stopped to remove some of made a judgment. That really helps reduce some of the other initiatives that would free things up. The the bureaucracy. challenge for local authorities, safeguarding boards, directors of children’s services, for lead members and Q492 Chair: So integration from the beginning itself for politicians within local areas is to be brave enough reduces duplication and paperwork. to clarify a vision, simplify it, stick with what works Jennie Stephens: Perhaps more importantly, it also and be brave enough to stop doing the things that improves the outcome for the young person, the child, perhaps do not work. That is quite a big challenge I and their family; it delivers both. There is still some would say. bureaucracy in the system; we do struggle with IT systems that talk to each other. We have worked very Q490 Chair: We also are strong on accountability. hard, and Rory can tell you more about the detail, in The various appalling tragedies that capture the public relation to information governance. We feel we have imagination mean that people like us, and local come to a very good place with our partners in relation cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker to that. We think that is making a significant miles east to west. You have Dartmoor in the middle difference at the front end of the process. and Exmoor, so deploying you staff and deploying services to support children, young people and Q493 Chair: Hopefully we will have time to explore families in that rural environment is very complex. that a little more, although we are limited on time. I Additionally, although you have the chocolate box would ask my colleagues to ask short, sharp questions image of Devon, we do have serious areas of and for you to provide short, sharp answers. Nigel, deprivation and a significant number of young people did you want to add something? and children living in poverty in parts of Devon that Nigel Richardson: I would just like to quickly add, would equate to significant areas such as in Leeds. taking that hint, that there is good bureaucracy and there is bad bureaucracy. The challenge is to stick with Q498 Pat Glass: Nigel, in West Yorkshire and Leeds the good, because it is necessary to challenge us. If in particular you have been identified as a hot spot you have frontline social workers spending the for forced marriages and honour-based violence. What majority of their time on bureaucratic processes and have you put in place to deal with these particular not with children and families, then that has to be issues in child protection? a starting point: to look at that and try to flip that Nigel Richardson: We are starting to work across equation around. West Yorkshire on understanding the nature of the issues, sharing the intelligence and the stories. I think Q494 Chair: Can you tell us categorically that in a the stories are really important in terms of how you year’s time your social workers will be spending less understand them and then where you get the particular time in front of a computer screen and filling in forms trigger points from. Safeguarding boards are starting than they are this year? to look at these issues as well in much more detail to Nigel Richardson: That is absolutely our intention, understand what we need to do from the local and we are working with social workers, partners and communities’ perspectives. So I would say that we are families to ensure that happens. still on a learning curve. I do not know if Steve wants to add anything to that, but as an issue, collectively Q495 Pat Glass: Good morning. Nigel, I think we across the region, we are starting to understand it a have met before, when you were working in Hull. I little bit more. have three very short questions. Firstly to Nigel: Steve Walker: It is very much about joining the dots. Leeds is a very big city, and 33% of your children are We do have a specialist worker for children missing classified as living in areas of extreme deprivation. from education. They are aware of the issue, so they What are your biggest challenges in terms of child can then begin to be in communication with other protection? parts of the organisation to ask whether it is a bigger Nigel Richardson: The biggest challenge is issue than the child simply missing some time in consistency and collective effort. It is about how you school. mobilise a city the size of Leeds around a common purpose. So you have to clarify the vision and Q499 Pat Glass: So you have your CME officer; simplify the vision. We have an architecture that goes does he or she then trigger something in the system? with that city-wide, down through local areas and down through what we would term clusters. There are Steve Walker: It is a specialist worker within 27 clusters and consistency amongst the 27 clusters is children’s services who picks up on information from absolutely critical. That common purpose and schools about when children have been missing for common way of working together becomes critical. It some period. is predicated on three things: doing the simple things better; remembering that the child is the client; and, Q500 Pat Glass: And that triggers some kind of in everything that we do, we are able to articulate how action? what we are doing enables us to safeguard and Steve Walker: Yes promote the welfare of the child. I could say a lot Nigel Richardson: One of the approaches we have more, but I am following the Chair’s request. taken is looking at the challenge of what it is like to be a child or young person growing up in Leeds or Q496 Pat Glass: So it is about common purpose and Devon today. One of the fundamental questions that consistency and making sure that we focus on the we ask of a professional third sector colleague child and not the family. working with children is to understand what a day in Nigel Richardson: Absolutely. There is a long history the life of that child is like. So it is not just about of us, with the best will in the world, perhaps listening the particular service perspective of, “I am doing this too much to the adult’s view of the world. Although particular bit,” but it is about what a day in the life of we must listen to them, a children’s service exists to that child is like. What time do they get up, what time see things through the eyes of a child, and then you do they go to bed, how do they spend the day, how put the two things together on that basis. many friends have they got, what do they do during the day and so on. Understanding that aspect of a Q497 Pat Glass: It is very different in Devon, where child’s life triggers sets of questions. We know that there is a large rural population. What are your biggest some of those triggers then flip over into concerns. challenges in terms of child protection? Jennie Stephens: The rurality and the geography is a Q501 Pat Glass: In this particular area of forced challenge; Devon is 80 miles north to south and 70 marriage, speed is of the essence. Do you have very cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker close links with the police? Does this trigger action referrals, number of referrals, and understanding from your local police? where referrals come from and what happens to them. Steve Walker: We have a very clear joint protocol What we have picked up is that it is very difficult at with the police on this. We have joint and shared times to see the wood for the trees. We get large guidance that has been in place for a number of years. numbers of referrals, some of which require Where we have concerns about children, we are able somebody to take some action but may not require— to share that and discuss with the police whether or not we need to take any further action. Q505 Ian Mearns: How many a month, say? Steve Walker: How many a month? About 5,000 a Q502 Pat Glass: Do you have embedded teams? month. Steve Walker: We are currently in the process of So what we have found through Professor Thorpe’s moving our child protection central unit to be located research is that we are very good at identifying those jointly with the police. high-need cases and responding to those. The issue is Nigel Richardson: If you are asking if there is a that within those 5,000 there are other children who, specialist team just looking at that issue, the answer if we do not provide them with support from either us is no, but we are integrating— or multi-agency partners, will end up requiring more intensive support later. How we have typically Q503 Pat Glass: Given that you are a hot spot, is responded in the past to those kinds of cases is to that something that you would consider establishing? signpost that family to another service. We have no Nigel Richardson: Yes. By highlighting and way of knowing whether the family goes or whether, understanding the issue, combining the stories and if they do get to that service, it makes any difference collective intelligence, then yes, we could consider until in three or six months’ time when they are any option on the table in terms of where we go next re-referred. with that. What we have done is look with Professor Thorpe at how we can change the way in which we respond to Q504 Ian Mearns: This question is really to Steve referrals so that we do not just accept them but and Rory. Could you explain how your initial response provide a consultation and advice service to partners teams deal with a child protection contact and where at the front end, so we can understand the issues, they refer it to? understand the child’s needs and work out the best Rory McCallum: Within Devon we have what is way to respond so that child actually gets a response. called a Multi-Agency Safeguarding Hub, the MASH, We have reconfigured our duty service; we have which went online in April 2010. The MASH was buy-in from both the police and the health service to created off the back of us undertaking a multi-agency join us at the front door and facilitate those kinds of case audit following the death of Baby P—Peter conversations. Connelly. What that audit told us is that we were not as good as we thought we were in terms of Q506 Ian Mearns: But you have not yet intelligence sharing at the point of our deciding what implemented a MASH-style system? action needed to happen. The concept of the MASH Steve Walker: No, because what we are trying to do is not complicated. It is a building we have in Exeter. is more than simply respond to taking referrals. It is There are numerous agencies and organisations about creating relationships and having a dialogue, co-located within that building, and when a concern and working properly with partners. is raised about a particular child or young person, that Nigel Richardson: I just think it is worth emphasising acts as the referral point for professionals to put that that the principles that apply in Leeds are exactly the concern. Then within the MASH, there is an same as those in Devon. The reality of the referral unfettered information-sharing process that goes on, taking is about conversations and relationships. There which allows us to pool all of that intelligence to make is a lot of effort that goes into the magic word a more accurate and improved decision as to what that “thresholds” and formula. That actually produces sets response needs to be. of behaviours that can be a disservice to children and I would like to quickly follow up on the issue of families. The quality of the relationships and the information sharing, because there is an important conversations is absolutely key. How you configure point I would like to put across to the Committee. that, whether you put people in the same place, have The only other environment where you really get full, virtual teams or have a set of relationships that unfettered information sharing is in a serious case formulate themselves in different ways, is a matter for review once a child has died. What we have attempted local set up. to do in Devon is try to create a forum where Rory McCallum: Within Devon we take about 800 to information can be shared lawfully, which is 900 MASH inquiries per month. MASH is not solely consistent with rules, regulations, laws and so on about just making a decision on the referral; it also governing data protection, to allow us to make encapsulates some of the elements Nigel is talking improved safeguarding decisions. This is about us about in terms of relationship building. Critically what trying to address the balance of child protection we found in Devon is that, where you have a system against the balance of protection of information, set up where you are expecting a social work manager which has been a struggle for organisations over the to make a decision on whether a child protection last few years. inquiry is required or not, and all you are giving them Steve Walker: We have done a lot of work with is maybe a couple of lines from a police record that Professor David Thorpe on the issue of rates of says, “We have responded to a domestic incident, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker intervened, the child is not dead and actually basis at the front door on a multi-agency basis. Within everything is okay, and we left the house,” and the 27 there will be protocols and set-ups around the nothing else, it is very difficult for that manager to governance arrangements, so they will be set. That make a sensible decision as to what course of action does not stop anybody coming in at a future date and he needs to take. changing it, in the same way that they could come Quite a good, quick practical example is one of the into Devon at a future date and change that. We are first cases that went through the MASH. A low-level building a collective organisational memory as to how domestic incident had been reported. When they ran that works, which is predicated on what it is like to through the intelligence, the dad turned out to be one be a child growing up in Leeds. of the top drug dealers in the locality, with a huge Steve Walker: There is another fundamental thing that string of violent offences against his name. Now that is important not to lose sight of: what we have to be was not on the police 121a, as it is called, when that doing all the way through is collecting evidence about was referred in. Ordinarily, pre-MASH, you can whether or not it delivers better outcomes for children. imagine that referral may very well have resulted in If we are able to evidence that we are not missing no further action. It put a whole different context on children, delivering better services and reducing the how we needed to respond, and that is just with one number of children that need to be looked after or element of the police intelligence. subject to a child protection plan, it is unlikely that people will come in and change it. Q507 Chair: Is it necessary to co-locate? It is rather Chair: One size does not fit all. odd, isn’t it? You have this massive rural council arguing to have everyone together in one place, and Q510 Ian Mearns: There is another acid test—it is you have a concentrated urban council saying, “We all very well to improve but are you improving to the have these principles but we do not need to put them measure that you could? all in the same building.” You would think it would Nigel Richardson: Yes. be the other way around. Rory McCallum: It is to do with how the partnership Q511 Ian Mearns: I will move on. From your is encouraged to share information safely. What we perspective, Rory, how do you think things have have found within Devon is that the health community changed fundamentally in terms of the responses prior are becoming more confident in sharing very sensitive to implementing this system? information that does make a difference to our Rory McCallum: I think it is a safer mechanism that decision making. We have allowed that to happen by we have in place now. We are mitigating elements of providing an element of trust within the system. The risk in terms of wrong decisions being made. If you MASH has a virtual red box around it, where spoke to my staff who are working in the MASH and intelligence will not be broken out unless there is making those decisions, they would struggle to go consent or there is a lawful way for that to happen. back to a world pre-MASH. They feel a lot safer in their decision making now. This is not necessarily a Q508 Ian Mearns: Surely that is a test about all of complicated concept; if you have five or six different this: to get the initial response right so that the number bits of intelligence in front of you and you have to of re-referrals is massively diminished. make a decision, you will likely make a better Nigel Richardson: That is absolutely right. Just for decision than if you have one of those pieces of clarification, Chair, if you want to use the terminology intelligence. So I certainly think it is different and of MASH, we sort of have a version of MASH improved from pre-MASH, and not only from a local coming together in our central duty response at the authority perspective. Part of the subtle wins here is front door. That has all the multi-agency partners that it has started encouraging a better approach across coming together on that back of the evidence we have the partnership to the safeguarding response, so it is from Professor Thorpe’s work on how we reconfigure not typically seen as, “Let’s just refer something into all that. Then out in the 27 areas I talked about across the local authority to deal with.” There is now more the whole of Leeds, they are all configured on a of a partnership ownership around decision making at multi-agency basis within those clusters. So there is that first point. the initial decision making, and then the work to be done in terms of intervention in local communities, Q512 Ian Mearns: Have you come up with any children’s centres, health resources, schools and so on. scenarios, though, where you thought that the new system would resolve the problem but it has not? Q509 Chair: You talked about relationships. If you Rory McCallum: We still experience differences, for have it spread out, it becomes the flavour of the example differences of opinion on thresholds. At the month, everyone drives along, they get an excellent end of the day, the decision maker has to make a new director in your form, Nigel, and then you move judgment about which route a particular case goes on. Is the thing going to be resilient enough? Isn’t one down, and we still do get some disagreements in the of the benefits of pulling these people together that system around whether a certain decision should have there is going to be more of a collective memory, and, been made or should have been a different decision. as one person goes, there is still this growing, centred, Some of that is still around, but I think we have organisation? Is yours more vulnerable to change mitigated the risk of those decisions being incorrect. over time? Nigel Richardson: I would argue that it is very Q513 Ian Mearns: Given the fact that you have this similar, because it will be established on a city-wide multi-agency system, are you finding that the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker information about an individual child within a case is the MASH. We have an analyst role that sits within coming forward very quickly from the different the MASH, and a good example of that role is where agencies, or are there any initial hold-ups in that? there are re-referrals that come back into the MASH. Rory McCallum: We have set ourselves some limits The analysts will pull together what is called a family around how quickly we return that information in the profiles dataset and there will be a meeting. This is partnership based on an initial risk assessment of the about trying to predict who those troubled families are intelligence that is coming in. So it ranges from a and wrapping around a professional response to turnaround of a couple of hours through to something prevent harm from escalating. The only way you are where we can take two or three days to research the going to get that is if you are sharing intelligence intelligence. More often than not we get that smartly and sharing that early. intelligence back within the timescale, so we are not experiencing any agencies not co-operating with the Q516 Chair: Are you encouraging intelligence system. across to other agencies? In York we heard that one of the changes they have made relates to the police Q514 Ian Mearns: Obviously Leeds is very different informing schools. So the head teacher at a school from Devon. Nigel and Steve, have you examined the would learn that the father of a child at the school had sorts of systems that Devon have evolved at all in just been arrested for being drunk and disorderly for terms of looking at your own systems? the second time in a month; that information Nigel Richardson: We have not done an exact previously did not pass over. Are there any changes analysis with colleagues in Devon, but I suspect we being made in that way to make sure that everybody will, after this meeting anyway, just as a matter of is aware of what is going on? course. However, the principles that Rory has just Rory McCallum: There are similar examples about outlined are very similar to the principles we have notifying schools when there has been a domestic incorporated within Leeds as well. The whole idea of violence incident. Operation Encompass down in what Rory has just described is about putting Plymouth is rolling out at a wider level across Devon confidence back in the professional safeguarding through Devon & Cornwall Police. Part of the network. A lot of the challenge we face is the problem with intelligence sharing and information challenge of fear, and if agencies are left on their own, sharing is that there is so much information out there they become fearful. One of the safest routes is to in the system that it is hard to know how to create refer on; once you have referred on, it is somebody something that allows us all to talk about every single else’s problem. That is a very simplistic version, but piece of the data with every single agency. that captures a lot of what Eileen Munro was talking about and what the Children Act itself was trying to Q517 Chair: Interestingly, they said not to make it deal with. That confidence in a system is absolutely formal and felt it was about building the trust and critical. confidence to share and for professionals to make a The other point on the evidence, as Steve was talking judgment, rather than designating a requirement to about earlier on, and I am sure that it would be the make calls in every certain circumstance. same in Devon, is that the evidence gives you Rory McCallum: I am not sure whether this is the patterns, and the patterns tell you who it is you need to be talking to on a multi-agency basis about the same within Leeds, but certainly within Devon I sense interventions. The first principle is that you never do with front-line members of staff that there is a level of nothing, and if you never do nothing, you have to confusion and anxiety about the information sharing understand what it is you are going to do. What we governance system. Again, if information sharing was know from the referral patterns, which I suspect is not such a big issue, potentially we would not very similar in Devon, is that there are necessarily have had to set up the MASH. In a sense disproportionately single female carers, drug and we have different cultures in different organisations alcohol misuse, mental health issues amongst adults that focus on information sharing completely as carers, conditions of poverty, and people struggling differently. That sometimes presents problems in to bring up children. The small but very significant terms of how some of that local trust out there on the group are the seriously significantly harmed children, front line develops. either physically or sexually. Q518 Ian Mearns: That brings me neatly on to my Q515 Ian Mearns: There are lots of examples next question, which is about getting rid of those around the country. We visited Tower Hamlets last confusions, anxieties and taboos, even, about week, and they did not have a MASH team but a information sharing. How have you managed to get similar unit. There may be more analogies there in the through these cultural conventions, where people just system they use in Tower Hamlets. did not want to share information because that is not Nigel Richardson: You cannot do it as one agency; what you do? that absolutely has to be true. Chair: Do you need any further changes? As a Rory McCallum: There is another interesting concept reminder, which I should give every time but failed to of where the MASH can evolve. We are looking at today, we write reports and make recommendations to this in Devon and have just started what is called Government. Do not leave today without having tried family profiling within the MASH. That links very to encourage us to make it a recommendation to neatly with the troubled families agenda. This is very Government if something you want changed is on much about using that partnership intelligence within your agenda. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker
Rory McCallum: Within Devon you can simple and clear messages out. People are muddled conceptualise the MASH as having some kind of across agencies and within them, and we need some imaginary red box around it; we have said to the simple clear messages that can clarify the situation partnership, “You can share whatever intelligence you across the organisations in relation to child protection. want with the MASH.” Ian Mearns: It stays in that box. Q520 Chair: If you have any ideas of what that Rory McCallum: It stays in that box, and it will not might look like, then please do write to us. be broken out unless you, as a professional, consent Jennie Stephens: We will follow that up. On the for that to happen or if we have a lawful basis to break softer side, which are some of the things we have been that out, such as stopping crime, prevention of harm talking about, we have not used the words “leadership to a young person and so on. That is even true with and trust” here but I think they are really key. The information that is highly sensitive. One of the role of the Local Safeguarding Children’s Boards are benefits of co-locating with the police has been that absolutely key in this regard to enable us to share they are used to managing very sensitive intelligence information. The LMC sits on our Children’s Board, on a daily basis, and even if you are breaking out the as I am sure it does with others, and our LMC details of that information, there are ways in which representative has been very helpful to us in having you can signpost to the social worker that they need the ear of some of our GPs through that route. It is to have a conversation with someone in the system going to be a journey. We are on it, which is the good because they hold a very important piece of the bit, but culture change does not happen overnight, and jigsaw. Some of that subtle conversation that happens that is the bit that we have to keep pushing at. outside the MASH process is also very important. Q521 Neil Carmichael: Just before I start talking Q519 Ian Mearns: What about GPs for instance? about thresholds, I am going to ask one question about Devon is a big place; have you managed to bring them the structure you have been describing for the last half all on board with that? an hour. Do you think it has arisen from the nature of Rory McCallum: We have been pleasantly your actual authorities, because Leeds City Council is encouraged by the input of our GPs into the MASH quite different from Devon County Council, and the process. It has been a journey for them, but I think if relationships you have with other agencies, or do you you spoke to my managers within the MASH, they think it is something you have come across internally would say that GPs are more encouraged to be sharing and found that the way of operating is driven more by some of that sensitive information because they trust the actual job that you are doing? that the MASH will not be used in that function. Jennie Stephens: I think there is probably a bit of Ian Mearns: But it is still a journey. both. A lot of it is around the way we want to operate, Rory McCallum: It is still a journey. Again, it is not our strategic vision and our approach in terms of just focused on the GPs themselves; this goes back to putting children first, running a safe system, and cultural differences in focuses on information recognising that what we had before was not working governance. It crosses more than just the health as well as we wanted it to in terms of ensuring safety. community. There is also the other side, which is that we have an Nigel Richardson: I would just add that there is very organisation that is promoting safety as one of its first similar set of scenarios, and it almost as if similar priorities and its strategic priorities. So you have the conversations have been going on in Leeds and Devon leadership through the whole organisation and on similar challenges. How we have tried to break council. into that is with a lot of the issues that Rory has talked Nigel Richardson: We have approached it in a similar about, but there is a basic duty that binds us all way, although it is a bit of a mixture. What I said right together, and that is the duty to safeguard and promote at the beginning was about clarity of purpose, vision, the welfare of the child. At your invitation, Chair, and something that binds people together. Ultimately, there should be a reminder of that duty and you can have any structure you like within a particular expectation of information sharing. Where there are geographical area, but it will only take you so far. It children and concerns about some of those children, will help shape behaviour but actually it will be the there should be a multi-agency response to deal with relationships, the conversations and the conditions those concerns. When we talk to families and that you create that will make the biggest difference children, they expect us to have shared the to the lives of children. information. They do not take kindly to different Leeds has been on a particular journey, with a separate agencies asking for the same information again and education organisation, local authority, and some again and again. It is a journey, and we have similar difficulties within the local authority’s safeguarding. issues with colleagues across partnerships. A key We had an opportunity to look at shape in bringing partner would be the third sector, and there are a wide those two together, and there was a bit of a gift in variety of organisations that exist in the third sector Leeds around the work that had gone on within the 27 that have a huge amount to offer. Again, we local areas, promoted originally by schools, that they inadvertently tend to raise some anxieties about had already set up. So why would you not build on information sharing. those relationships? The key issue was: what is the Jennie Stephens: There are two things I just want to clarity of purpose? We have the vision of a child- say; one is around the soft area and one is around hard friendly city, the five outcomes, 11 priorities and we issues. On the hard issues, I think we need some help have three obsessions. If you went around the 27 on information sharing and we need to get some very clusters in Leeds or talked to partners in Leeds, I cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Ev 98 Education Committee: Evidence
7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker would be disappointed if people could not play back Nigel Richardson: I alluded to this earlier on: my to you that overarching framework of why they are personal view is that I struggle with the term coming to work and what it is they are trying to do to “thresholds”. It can produce incentives within improve things for children and young people. Then behaviours across organisations to work out what the you work from there. threshold is and look at how to get over the threshold to get your case. So if you ring one day and use a Q522 Neil Carmichael: The kind of leadership you particular set of language, you do not get a service. If get from your respective councils and cabinet you ring another day and use a different set of members and so forth, how would you describe that language, you get a service. The work we did with as part of the process? Professor David Thorpe collected video evidence and Nigel Richardson: I would say it is absolutely critical. phone calls and conversations that give us clear We have had initial discussions and debates about evidence of this. The research he has done with us direction of travel, where we want to be, what it is we across the whole of Yorkshire and Humberside as well want to achieve for the young people of Leeds, and shows that people can play it up or play it down. What we have had very strong political leadership that has you are dealing with at the end of the day are difficult helped broker cross-party political support, which moral judgments in many cases; if it is not the means children are front and centre of Leeds City significant harm or injuries, it is worries about Council’s agenda and at the top table of the future children and what you should do. growth and development of the city. So there is an We have tried to reframe that in terms of the economic regeneration position for children. That multi-agency response we have all been talking about: again puts the confidence in the system, not only for there are children, there are concerns about those children, young people and families within Leeds but children, and there should be a multi-agency response for professionals and colleagues working in the area, to deal with those concerns. For the bits that are that there is that political backing. I think it is a critical clearly defined, around the significant harm or injury, part of the equation. there are clear processes about how we deal with that. Jennie Stephens: That is what I was saying as well. Those areas of concern, whether you call it Section 17 Throughout the whole council, including the political or worry, still need a collective response. Historically, arguing about who is best placed to do what, saying side, we have absolute support on this as a top priority. that “this does not meet our criteria”, has got us into It is in our strategic plan as a top priority. We have a a lot of difficulties. regular monthly meeting involving the leader, chief executive, the lead member for children’s services, the director of public health, Rory and me. We have both Q524 Neil Carmichael: Would you agree with me a strategic part to that meeting and more of an that it would be better to focus on outcomes from operational part, where we can share learning on cases integration rather than thresholds for intervention? and things that have happened, so we are keeping that Nigel Richardson: Absolutely. The biggest message clear line of sight. On a quarterly basis our front-line that has helped us on our journey has been an practitioners come in and meet with that group of obsession with outcomes: how much did we do; how people and have an opportunity to say what it feels well did we do it; have we made a blind bit of like on the front line, and also to give the messages difference? We want children to be safe, we want about things they would like to see changed. There is them to be healthy, we want them to do well in learning at school, and have fun growing up. a very active approach in relation to the lead member Concentrating on those has helped enormously in as well as the leader of the council. terms of refocusing the conversations across the city. Q523 Neil Carmichael: Thresholds: where are they Q525 Neil Carmichael: This is again for you Nigel: and how do you manage them? That is really the Leeds has seen a rise of incidents, if you like; has that thrust of the next phase of questions. I happen to know affected your attitude to this question of thresholds, Leeds surprisingly well, because I was once a and how have you managed that? parliamentary candidate in Leeds East, so I know Nigel Richardson: We have been working on these some of the areas you are focusing on. different approaches now, and we know the journey Ian Mearns: Did you win? on intervention, etc, and the improvement notice that Neil Carmichael: No, George won actually, and I get has recently been lifted. The increased referral rates, on surprisingly well with him after all these years; he the disproportionately high number of children looked is a great chap. after, child protection plans and so on have been the Chair: I always like people I beat. price of our not working in the way we are now Neil Carmichael: He beat me, unfortunately. We talking to you about. We have clear evidence that we were contesting Denis Healey’s seat. have now stemmed the flow in those patterns, and we Chair: Let us crack on. are about to enter the phase where we are confident Neil Carmichael: What I really want to talk about is and hopeful that we will start to turn the curve on thresholds. According to the papers we have just been referral patterns. That does not mean things going reading, broadly speaking you were happy with the away; it just means you change the pattern. The 1989 Act in terms of the legal basis it defines but the responses deal with the same sorts of cases, but they ADSC is wanting a debate about thresholds and where will be dealt with at a more localised level earlier in they should be. Could both Nigel and Jennie comment the life of the problem. That is the attitude; changing on that? patterns is the issue for us. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 99
7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker
Q526 Neil Carmichael: Jennie, you were nodding at argue that early action in intervention and integration that. Could you comment on this general theme of would be better than waiting for a threshold strategy? developing thresholds versus integration? Nigel Richardson: Yes. I am not quite sure what you Jennie Stephens: Yes, I am very much on the mean by a threshold strategy, but it is a whole systems integration side. I think that thresholds can be very approach that we have both been talking to you about, unhelpful to us and I totally support what Nigel was and that is really important. If you get the whole saying; it does mean that we can end up deploying our systems approach working properly on a multi-agency resources to the wrong things, and we end up being a basis, the difficult conversations we have historically flashing blue light service rather than actually bringing had about thresholds—and people poring over our responses in much earlier in the journey of the legislation to define who should do what and who child within their family. So key for me is the should not do particular things—disappear because integration model, intervening earlier and getting actually you are dealing with a child, the concerns, people really working on the child and their family at and who is best placed to do what with an increased an earlier point. With the family approach that Rory confidence in an area. That is rather than somebody was talking about, where we are analysing the thinking, “Well, if I do not do this, I will be left on information, I have sat in on a number of those my own, and I will be the one on the front page.” meetings and it is fascinating to look at the number of interventions that have happened in a young person’s Q528 Chair: But, Nigel, there is never that much and family’s journey before we get to know about money, and we have thresholds because there is them. So there is something about how we come back limited resource. There are certain cases that need much earlier, and we believe MASH is a key part of very expensive intervention, and therefore necessarily helping us to do that. It is not the only part though; there is going to be some form of threshold, whether that is what I would stress. implicit or explicit. Suggesting otherwise is surely We have talked a lot about MASH, but it is also about denying reality. How do we unpick this? how well we work on the ground with our schools and Nigel Richardson: I would never miss an opportunity how well our social workers are linking in with our to ask for further resources to be invested in this area schools and with our primary care colleagues to bring of work; don’t get me wrong on that. However, when that trust on the ground. So there is the more you look at it across budgets, across assets and across systematic approach, which is through MASH, but local resources—as was the original intention within there is also the softer approach, which is being out the Children Act—there is actually quite a significant there on the ground, building the trust, having the resource. It might not be purely financial, but there is conversations and being seen to be working together quite a lot of significant resource. If you think in an and really focusing on issues much earlier. The honest area like Leeds, or even across Devon, of the number answer is that we are not there yet, I do not think any of people who, day in day out, impact on the life of a of us are, but certainly I feel we are working very hard child, that is a huge resource. Now, if you can to develop and change things in Devon to achieve that mobilise that resource, how exciting would that be in outcome. That is a key goal for us. terms of improving things for children? You have asked us to give you some messages, and You will still have “thresholds” because of particular the other thing I would say is that in terms of our definitions of need, significant harm, disability and social work training it is really key that our social mental health issues, but those tend to be the cases workers feel very confident in their assessment skills, that people do not disagree about. The bulk of the and that their training has been really spot on in work is worry and concern about parenting, how relation to those skills, dealing with conflict and being people are bringing up children and children’s really confident in this complex area. There is an area behaviour. for us to influence there, but that is something we would suggest you might want to think about as well. Q529 Craig Whittaker: You have just talked about The final point from me on this issue is that we focus whole systems approaches and we have talked about a lot on assessment. We do need quality assessment an integration model rather than purely focusing on and we need social workers who are really robust in thresholds. Is it right that the Government has decided that regard, but we also need more doing in the not to take up Eileen Munro’s recommendation of system. Otherwise you have a lot of re-referrals, and early help for those families that do not meet a you need some excellent services that are going threshold? Are you saying to us that happens anyway behind the assessment to ensure that families are or is that still fantasy? supported and young people do have opportunities. Rory McCallum: I think that I am on record Those are the very practical things; from universal somewhere as saying that I thought that an early help services such as our libraries, where you have Bounce duty would have been helpful. For me there is and Rhyme, through to our family centres, where you something in looking back over the last few years and have parenting skills, cookery courses and so on. thinking about our approaches to the Common There is a whole range of interventions that we need Assessment Framework and the team around the child to make sure we continue to invest in and have a lot approaches. In terms of a toolkit and a way of of doers in this system as well. working, that is absolutely on the money and that is what we would expect professionals within the system Q527 Neil Carmichael: In terms of financial to work towards. The difficulty, though, is that where constraints, which we all have, you would presumably you look at partnerships wrapping around some of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Ev 100 Education Committee: Evidence
7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker those troubled families we are now talking about; that Q532 Craig Whittaker: What about those families has been a much bigger challenge for us to solve. Rory was just talking about—those that fall within the vacuum? Q530 Craig Whittaker: But it is happening, though, Nigel Richardson: Even with the families that fall isn’t it? within the vacuum in the cluster arrangements, there Rory McCallum: I think it is happening. is still that collective set-up in the local area. They are Craig Whittaker: So why do you need a statutory the families that we will continue to have to engage regulation to tell you what to do? with, and there is a consensus across the agencies that Rory McCallum: If you looked at the child protection they will do that. At the moment I do not feel I need system—so once children are being seen under the an additional duty to make sure that happens. umbrella of requiring specific child protection However, the bit that is binding us together at the intervention—you will see that there is a very strong moment is the focus on outcomes, which colleagues partnership approach to developing child protection talked about earlier on. Jennie and I, as directors of plans and, as Jennie said, doing something with that children’s services, are carrying that statutory role. family to try to mitigate that risk. There is an element of our role that is about good will, On the other end of the spectrum, we have had a best endeavours and actually cajoling, persuading and selling that message. On my list—which is quite long Common Assessment Framework model that has actually, Chair, but I will not go through them all; I worked very neatly for families who are consenting to will write to you—there is already a significant duty work with the professionals who are trying to help within the Children Act that is played out through the them. For me there seems to have been a bit of a Lead Member for Children’s Services and through the vacuum in the middle, where there is a cohort of Director of Children’s Services to safeguard and families who are very hard to reach, difficult to promote the welfare of the child. I would urge you to engage with and do not want to work with statutory think about how best, to use Rory’s phrase, to give agencies trying to improve the outcomes for their that a bit more oomph in how we use that as a key children. That has been a challenge: to wrap the lever. We do not have direct line management of all partnership around those particular families so that the organisations that we have referred to, but we do they almost come to the table as organisations would have a duty to ensure they work in a particular way. as part of the child protection process. That, for me, was where I was thinking an early help Q533 Craig Whittaker: So we have one council duty would have been beneficial in allowing a bit of saying, “Yes, we would prefer the statutory leverage in the system to bring people around the table requirement,” and one saying, “We’re not particularly for that cohort of troubled families. Again, I do not bothered about it.” think it is the be-all and end-all; a lot of this does go Nigel Richardson: I think the ones we have already down to how local areas have managed their strategic play into what Rory— relationships across the piece. My personal perspective is that sort of leverage would have added Q534 Craig Whittaker: No, that is fine. Would it be a bit of oomph in the system. fair to assume that the question is not particularly about money and resource? Q531 Craig Whittaker: Just so I am very clear: Nigel Richardson: No, because the money and what you are saying is that you do not feel as though resource is how far you can take things. Our challenge you have enough professionalism within your at the moment, particularly in the current economic partnership working to be able to nail down into those climate—and we were talking about this before we families, and what you need is some statutory came in—is that we have negotiated a position where regulation to force that to happen. Is that what you in Leeds we have a bigger slice of a smaller cake are saying? because of the priority given to children, and in Devon Rory McCallum: That is what I went on the record there has actually been additional investment in the saying. It was really just about mirroring. Within the children’s budget. So we have a degree of protection child protection process, partners come around the around the disproportionately high number of table and focus on fixing problems that are within looked-after children, etc. But that is predicated on families. Within the Section 17 children-in-need our changing that pattern and reinvesting some of that umbrella, it is more variable and more challenging to money elsewhere. If we had additional investment get that same level of commitment. further upstream, around help early in the life of Nigel Richardson: It is a really interesting question, mental health issues, parenting and the things we and it is tempting to say, “If there were an additional talked about earlier on, we could take this further, duty…” I understand exactly where Rory is coming faster, harder and be more sustainable, which was the from in some of the challenges he has just described. Chair’s comment at the beginning. To answer your question, our experience in Leeds is that we have also gone ahead with what is termed Q535 Craig Whittaker: On parenting: no matter Early Start. We have joint Early Start Teams that work what you guys do, no matter how much money within the clusters I described and are jointly funded Government give you, at the end of the day, unless and working with health and social care. They are you get the parenting right or people start to become shaping up around the clusters on the notion of early better parents, you are going to be in the job forever. help and early in the life of problems and issues as Do you think we should have some legislation on they emerge across the age range. what is expected of parents, as they do in Scotland? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 101
7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker
Nigel Richardson: Again, that is interesting territory. Steve Walker: One of the problems with CAF is that With all this we end up in moral judgments to a in many authorities it got very closely linked with degree. However, there is probably some very clear thresholds. The way that you evidenced that a family evidence of what works in terms of parenting, and needed a service from children’s care was to complete particularly help and assistance to parents, through a a CAF in a particular way. The other thing that lot of the work that has gone on nationally. What we happened was that, rather than becoming a tool that also have is probably a million and one different facilitated a discussion and assessment around a child approaches. Certainly across Leeds we have a huge and family, it became a mechanism by which I on my variety of approaches, but the hard evidence base own can fill something in and send it in as a referral probably sits with less than half a dozen of those to see whether I get a better response than sending in approaches. Now the challenge for us is whether we a letter or making a phone call. grasp that and say, “Actually, to make the biggest difference, we are going to disproportionately invest Q539 Neil Carmichael: I was just wondering about in this particular approach.” Remember where the this business of thresholds that we were discussing Common Assessment Framework came from: a piece before in connection with relationships between other of work that Harriet Ward and Mark Peel did with us agencies. Just before I popped out, you were talking a long time ago. That was about good enough about good will and so forth. How would a dispute parenting; that was the premise of that work. I would between agencies be managed, and what kind of argue that the Common Assessment, although it still adjudication would be applied? has a very important role, is one of those areas that Nigel Richardson: That is where, in our roles as has moved from the simple to the overcomplicated. directors of children’s services, there is an escalation We have lost something on that journey, but that was process that would work as it works its way through about good enough parenting in terms of shape. the system. If it was one particular case in a particular Jennie Stephens: I would just like to support that. local area, we would expect it to work up. If it was a The additional resource to help us on the journey of big, strategic issue or policy direction on whether an the early help approach is key, and we are obviously agency should join in with a particular approach—if working hard to look at how we do that within one of the agencies did not want to join the MASH councils. That is a very important area for us. approach or one said they would not sit alongside another in the duty team in Leeds—then that is a big Q536 Chair: Was the Government right in the issue. That is the conversation we would expect to Education Act last year to bring in free nursery have with chief executives. education for 20% and then 40% of disadvantaged two-year-olds, or should they have simply taken the Q540 Chair: So how are you resolving these things? very substantial resource that will be put in to pay for Nigel Richardson: With a full and frank exchange of that, given that to you, and let you tailor the most views, holding on to what we are trying to achieve, appropriate solution to local needs? Discuss. why we are trying to achieve it and the overarching Jennie Stephens: Again, that is an interesting duty placed on us to bind those things together. question. My view would be that we probably know Jennie Stephens: We have not experienced that yet, well where we would want to allocate those resources but it would be the exact same process that we would at local level, and they may be different across go through. Our Local Safeguarding Children’s Board different authorities. also has an important role to play here. That is not only us setting the tone but also that multi-agency Q537 Chair: So if it was a true localist Government, team setting the tone. it should have given the money to you, trusted you, added it to the Early Intervention Grant and let you Q541 Neil Carmichael: But, in President Truman’s decide how to spend it. famous phrase, where does the buck stop? Jennie Stephens: I am a DASS as well as a DCS, Jennie Stephens: It is with us, with our chief and the way money came to us through the NHS for executives and with the leaders of the councils. investment on the older person’s side has been a very helpful approach and one that would have been useful Q542 Chair: I remember talking to a Director of for us to consider on this agenda as well. We have had Children’s Services about academies, and he said, excellent experience of the transfer of money from the “We have limited powers now.” I said, “There is no NHS into the local authority in Devon in that regard. limited power for you and me to hold a press It is a model that could be looked at for other services. conference and talk about our concerns if we have I also wanted to reinforce Nigel’s point in relation to any. You have to think outside the box.” Are you CAF. The concept was absolutely right, but we have prepared to use press conferences and embarrassment? now executed it in a complex way and made it quite What are the other non-statutory powers you can use bureaucratic. It has become a process rather than to try to get people to make sure they do fit in with something that is about bringing people together to what you think is an important agenda of looking after do some thinking about the doing that I was talking vulnerable children? about earlier. Nigel Richardson: I have not got to the stage of the press conference yet, but I will make a note of it. Q538 Chair: Do you think you are using the CAF in Chair: I always think the threat of it is enough. the appropriate way to look after those who do not Nigel Richardson: Yes, we will think about that one. meet the thresholds for higher level intervention? On the journey towards that, remember what we cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Ev 102 Education Committee: Evidence
7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker talked about at the beginning: having a very clear and Q550 Damian Hinds: It almost gets to the point simple vision for a geographical area that everybody where you say, “Which ones should we not look at?” signs up to. Then you have your reference point. That Does that not scare you? reference point, if signed up to, is the first port of call Nigel Richardson: I get scared on a daily basis, in terms of those conversations. However, the particularly when I read the duties put next to a conversations we have been having with academies, Director of Children’s Services, but that is what you trust schools, free schools, etc, is that it does not are challenged with. We have a disproportionately matter what their governance arrangements are; they high referral rate, we have a disproportionately high are still providing services for the children of Leeds. number of children on child protection plans, and we Therefore, they are still bound into the Children and have a disproportionately high number of children Young People’s Plan and the Local Safeguarding who are looked after by the local authority. Those Children’s Board. three things together cause huge concern, which is why we have been on a journey to put different things Q543 Chair: And is that working? Are any of them in place, to change the culture and to have a different resistant? approach. If we did nothing, you would end up on Jennie Stephens: Certainly for us in Devon they still that roundabout. want to be part of the family that meet together through our education forum, and I meet with Q551 Damian Hinds: For now we do not know what representative heads on a monthly basis as well, when proportion are re-referrals and, therefore, how many we can have those sorts of conversations. unique children there are on those lists, but it is a huge, huge number. That suggests to me that this Q544 Damian Hinds: Before I come to the question Inquiry should not be primarily about how you I want to ask, can I just clarify something? Nigel, did identify the particularly hard cases and protecting you say you had 5,000 referrals a month? children; there is a massive problem, if your numbers Nigel Richardson: That was the shout from the back. are right, in cities like Leeds in bringing up children I have the figures somewhere in the papers that we in general. sent in. Pat Glass: There are a lot of poor children out there. Damian Hinds: That is 12,000 a year. Damian Hinds: What do— Chair: Can we not have private discussions, please? Q545 Damian Hinds: How many children are born Rory McCallum: Our numbers are completely in Leeds? different. Within Devon there are 162,000 children Nigel Richardson: There are 180,000 children in under the age of 18. We are averaging around 800 to Leeds. It is about 12,000 or 13,000 a year. 1,000 MASH inquiries per month. Over the course of Chair: Damian is the most numerate on our a year, we will probably undertake around 6,000 Committee, so his basic lack of knowledge of initial assessments—maybe between 6,000 and 8,000. multiplying is troubling. In the year to 30 September 2011 we had undertaken 1,800 child protection investigations. So there is a big Q546 Damian Hinds: How many children are there difference. In terms of re-referral numbers, that has in Leeds? How many are born each year? historically been around the 20–22% mark. Nigel Richardson: I have not got the birth rate, but Nigel Richardson: The actual breakdown and there are 180,000. statistical stuff is in the David Thorpe report if you combine it. The point I think I heard you say is that Q547 Damian Hinds: How many children are there? the clear evidence is the minority of the work is Nigel Richardson: We have 180,000. generally a flat line of seriously harmed children. Jennie Stephens: We have 162,000. Wherever you go there will be the seriously harmed children, either physically or sexually or whatever, Q548 Damian Hinds: Of that number of referrals a and that will be a flat line of usually less than 10% of year, how many unique children are involved? You the business. The bulk of the business is our worries can see where I am going with this: at what point does and concerns about children, how they are being every child in Leeds become a subject of interest? brought up and what is going on within families. That Nigel Richardson: That is exactly where you end up is why the business is around all children within a with the single track referral system that both geographical area. That is how you have to approach authorities are working hard to replace. Devon is it. What has happened historically is that we have probably further ahead than we are with where they treated all those referrals as just trying to find the 10% have set up the MASH service. That is where you end at the bottom. Therefore, you are leaving a huge group up. If you read the research that David Thorpe did in with potentially no service. That is the issue. the evidence we sent to you, that is what is going on. A significant proportion are re-referrals. Q552 Damian Hinds: What proportion of your referrals would be from professionals rather than from Q549 Damian Hinds: This is critical information. neighbours, friends or family? What proportion of the children of Leeds, and Nigel Richardson: The majority are coming in from particularly in the 33% most-deprived boroughs that professionals. Pat was asking about, show up on your radar? It must Damian Hinds: Is it 80%-plus? be huge. Nigel Richardson: Yes; police, health and education Nigel Richardson: Yes, it is huge are the biggest referrers. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 103
7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker
Chair: We need to move on, Damian. Nigel Richardson: We would have more kids lined up Damian Hinds: Okay. I think this point is germane. than we would have had previously, but we have gone Chair: It is germane; it is just that we are already long through a pattern, as everybody else has, of increased over our time and I wanted to get on to thresholds for opportunities around family support. But if you have adoption in particular, which I think is your area. a big looked-after population, you are going to end up with a significant proportion of them heading towards Q553 Damian Hinds: What proportion of adoption the adoption route. do you have? What level of adoptions per 1,000 Steve Walker: The number of children placed for children compared with 10, 15 or 20 years ago—or a adoption at the end of January this year was as many long time ago? as we placed for adoption in the whole of the previous Rory McCallum: I do not know the precise rate of year. So the number is increasing. If you look at the our adoption, although I could get that information to children who are looked after, as Nigel said, their the Committee. Certainly we are progressing well this needs will be the same and always have been the year, and certainly better than we did last year, in same. It is the services’ response to those needs that terms of the number of adoptions made. differs over time. Nigel Richardson: Over the decades you are talking Q554 Damian Hinds: Compared with longer than a about, the massive significant changes in child welfare year ago, would it be higher, lower, or considerably policy, social policy and decision making have lower? changed the cohort anyway—or changed the child’s Rory McCallum: Over the last four years, it has journey. probably been around the same level. Q559 Damian Hinds: In terms of timeliness, how Q555 Damian Hinds: Forgive me, but I did not ask close or far away are you from being able to meet the about four years. What about 10, 20 or 30 years ago? target of 12 weeks? Compared with then, would the level of adoptions Steve Walker: 12 months. today be about the same, higher, lower, or much Damian Hinds: 12 months from being considered for lower? adoption to actually being adopted. Jennie Stephens: I think it is higher. Rory McCallum: Our last three matches in Devon were approved within two, three and five months. We Q556 Damian Hinds: You think it is higher? What tend to be able to find adoption placements for about in Leeds? children reasonably rapidly. Part of the delay that Steve Walker: It again would be higher. At the end of extends that 12-month period, as you will know only January we had 54 children adopted, with 43 of those too well, will link up with how that whole process adopted within 12 months of being placed for is undertaken, which links in with some of the clear adoption. messages coming out of the Family Justice Review Nigel Richardson: The specific answer to your around speeding up court timings. question for 20 or 30 years ago is that I do not know. Nigel Richardson: Steve has the figures in terms of I do not know what the changing patterns are there. proportions, but I would just like to make an additional point after that. Q557 Damian Hinds: Okay, but back when we were Steve Walker: Our proportion is 79.6%. kids; that is what I am trying to ask about. Damian Hinds: Within the 12 months? Nigel Richardson: What you have now is that, if you Steve Walker: Yes, within the 12-month period. have a disproportionately high number of children Nigel Richardson: The point I wanted to make was who become looked after, it is going to lead you to an just to log with you the potential for unintended increased likelihood of more of those children ending consequences if numeric targets or timeline targets are up in the adoption system. The fundamental question set. The other example I would give you is, if you go is: should the children who are looked after at the back to the national Assessment for Children in Need moment in Leeds be looked after, or is there a and their Families, that piece of work was about it different set of responses that could take place safely not being unreasonable to expect that something will and appropriately within families on the sort of happen within 24 hours if a local authority receives a models that we have just talked about? The pattern concern about a child. It is then not unreasonable for changes. It is not about higher or lower; that becomes a basic assessment to have been done within seven just a numeric thing. It is the rest of the system pattern days. It is then not unreasonable to think that within that tells you what is actually going on within families 30 days we should have a reasonable idea of where and local communities. we are going to go next. They flipped into targets, and if you did not hit the targets, you were in trouble. Q558 Damian Hinds: Correct me if I am wrong, Chairman, but I think in general our understanding is Q560 Chair: Is 12 months such a—? that the level of adoption in the country is Nigel Richardson: It is a date, isn’t it? It is a considerably lower than it was in days gone by. It is timescale. The principle has to be: right child, right massively lower, if we are to believe the stats. So your place, right time. That is what you have to obsess on. authorities would both have bucked that trend. In the leadership roles Jennie and I have, even if the Jennie Stephens: Maybe we got the information rules were 12 months and we would be in a huge wrong. amount of trouble if we do not hit 12 months, I think cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker we would both stick to: right child, right place, right service offer, and there is no room for complacency time. That would be our interpretation of the duties. in this agenda for all the reasons you have highlighted. It is something that is very important to us. Q561 Chair: You have just touched on this, Rory, but to what extent are the courts the cause of delay, Q564 Chair: Would you expect the percentage of and will the Family Justice Review recommendations, children on child protection plans, or whatever it is, if rather than when implemented, make a significant due to neglect to increase as you improved the quality difference? of your team’s and the MASH’s ability to diagnose Nigel Richardson: There will always be room for the issues? improvement. The court processes warranted a review, Jennie Stephens: I am trying to remember the exact but these things are in place and they start life for figures. We have done a joint strategic needs good reason. It is back to the good bureaucracy and assessment in relation to what we would expect in bad bureaucracy: untangling the good bits that have areas of neglect and abuse. I cannot remember what to remain there as safeguards, and those bits that we the figure is, but, from memory, I do not think that it could lose, change or move with. That is critical, but is significantly different. It would be slightly higher it has to be a team effort. but not significantly higher for us. Do you want to add Rory McCallum: I would agree. The court processes to that, Rory? are one part of the whole adoption process. I think Chair: Sadly, we do not have time. the 12-month timescale flies completely against what Nigel Richardson: There is a similar set of issues for Professor Munro was saying about timeliness. us. We would anticipate our understanding of neglect Chair: So, in your opinion, 12 months is a little too to increase as the cluster work I described comes rigid and may lead to a target-observing culture rather together, particularly the focus around increased than doing the best for the child. For Hansard’s working with schools, localities and children’s benefit, there are four nods of agreement to that. centres. What we do know is that we have worrying number of children arriving who are not ready for Q562 Pat Glass: Can I talk to you about neglect? school. So there are speech, language, communication Damian was talking about the number of referrals you skills and general behaviour issues. The emphasis on receive. The vast majority of your 5,000 a month, and early start that I talked about earlier on is significant the vast majority of your 800 to 1,000 a month, are for us on that basis. neglect. Teachers, people in the community and so on are making these referrals. They are not getting it Q565 Damian Hinds: Does that mean better or wrong and they may not be hitting your thresholds, worse or staying the same? but these children are neglected. The NSPCC recently Nigel Richardson: There is a bit of both. It goes up told us that 9% of 18 to 24-year-olds they surveyed and down that at the moment, but it remains an issue said that they had suffered severe neglect in their for us, and in different parts of Leeds there are lives. Action for Children survey carried out of eight different levels of progress as we learn from one part to 12-year-olds, which you will know, and showed of Leeds and move across to the other parts. We can that even eight-year-olds were saying that they could go with different aspirations around that, and as the see that 61% of their peers are suffering neglect. clusters develop we would hope it would start to get Chair: I think it was 61% of those asked felt they had better in terms of what services we are able to wrap seen neglect in others. around families and our expectations for children on Pat Glass: Had seen neglect in others. Yes, sorry. that basis. Given that neglect is likely to result in serious To answer your question: at the moment our financial impairment of the child’s health and development, and emphasis, purely if you look at it within the local have a massive impact on their future, and given this authority’s budget, is probably 70% at the child is the vast majority of your referrals, do those protection/looked-after children end of things and numbers of referrals reflect the levels of service those 30% at the early intervention end of things. That is children get? If four-fifths of your referrals are for without adding in other partners’ contributions. Our neglect, is four-fifths of your budget spent on neglect? ambition is to flip it up on that basis. Jennie Stephens: For us, 53% of children on a child protection plan are there because of neglect. That Q566 Pat Glass: Is there a danger that, if you move means the multi-agency system is very much looking towards smarter systems and get fewer referrals, it is and identifying neglect, taking that seriously and these children who will lose out? Given that neglect putting a plan together around those children and the very often coexists with other forms of maltreatment resources to support that. and will sometimes mask other forms of abuse, is there a danger that these children are the very ones Q563 Chair: If we had a perfect system, would it be who will lose out? a higher percentage? That is the nub of Pat’s question. Nigel Richardson: You have to acknowledge that. I Neglect is already the biggest, but in fact is the nature would take you back to the comment I made right at of it harder to diagnose and, if we had better systems, the very beginning: the whole approach we are would we have a high percentage still? adopting in Leeds—and I suspect, from what I have Jennie Stephens: The second reason is the emotional heard this morning, it is the same in Devon—is of well-being, so those two things move very closely professionals looking through the eyes of a child and together for us in Devon. I think there is always room asking what it is like to be that child or young person. to improve; there is always room to improve our The challenge for us in Leeds is that we have these cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Jennie Stephens, Rory McCallum, Nigel Richardson and Steve Walker disproportionately high figures around referrals, child are generally more difficult for practitioners across all protection plans and looked-after children. They are agencies to work with, because of things like the rule not just going to go away; we are going to change the of optimism. pattern. But the children will still be the children. Pat Glass: But if you go back to what Nigel said They will still be there, and it is about how many about looking from the point of view of the child, that children live in each of those clusters, how safe are does not really matter. You are going to be bullied and they, how healthy are they and how well are they ostracised even if you are dirty and smelly for a short doing in school? We have to support the positive and period of time. respond to the negative. That conversation is not Chair: I am sorry to cut you off. Can we have a final going to go away. How we have traditionally question from you, Pat? Then I need to bring this responded to it is going to change. session to an end.
Q567 Pat Glass: Can I ask you about that? Do you Q568 Pat Glass: We have been asked as a think the myth of the dirty, smelly child who is Committee to look at both the civil and criminal actually quite happy has been busted now? definitions of neglect. We have been told it was Nigel Richardson: Busted? changed in the 1930s and we need to look at it again. Pat Glass: Do you hear those things now? Do you agree that we do need to look at it again and, Nigel Richardson: We still have a way to go. One of very quickly, what do we need to include if we do? the things on my list, Chair, would build on the Do you want to think about it and write to us? training issue that Jennie talked about. We are still on Rory McCallum: That might be a better option. a big journey about getting all professionals in Leeds Neglect, I think, is far too sophisticated to be solved to think about what it is like to be that child or young by rewriting a couple of definitions, from both a civil person growing up and about a day in the life of that and a criminal perspective. That is not to say that particular child. With social workers, using Rory’s those definitions do not need rewriting, but there is a phrase, the profession could do with a bit of oomph, challenge that neglect brings to professionals in and anything you can do to continue to raise the managing and dealing with that appropriately profile of social work is really important. It is a major Pat Glass: We have an opportunity here as a asset on that basis. Committee to make a recommendation, so if you want Jennie Stephens: There is also the area of domestic to think about it and write to us, then do. violence and working across mental health, and Chair: We may also write to you about older young ensuring this is not just focused on children’s social people as well, if we may, as there are a few questions workers but is really important work across the whole that we have not had time to cover. Thank you for of our adult side as well. Where adult social workers such a full session. It has overrun so grossly not only are engaging with families and children, we need to due to poor chairmanship but also because of the get that message across. Those are the two key areas stimulation of the dialogue between us. Thank you that we need to focus on: drugs and alcohol, and very much. domestic violence. Steve Walker: It is also important to distinguish short- term and long-term neglect. Long-term neglect cases
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Sue Woolmore, Independent Chair, Wigan Safeguarding Children Board, and Chair, Independent LSCB Chairs’ Network, and Jane Held, Independent Chair, Leeds and Birmingham Safeguarding Children Board, gave evidence.
Q569 Chair: Good morning and thank you very Jane Held: Which one of us do you want to catch much for joining us. I am sorry we have started so that ball first? late, but it is a pleasure to have you with us. Are you Chair: Jane, you have spoken first so I will ask you successful, do you think, in banging heads together first. and leading to the journey towards a better system? Jane Held: Okay. We are never going to be One of the frustrations of being on Select Committees successful-successful, because there is always going is that, as the years pass, there are people telling you to be the next mountain to climb. I liken the journey how things were not very good five years ago but now to the trip to the top of Everest, and I reckon that in we are really moving somewhere much better, but five both boards I am responsible for at the moment we years later there is another bunch of people telling you that things were not very good five years ago and we are at base camp and we are working our way up to are moving to somewhere much better. One of our the next camp. The reality is that, as we learn more, jobs is to try to work out what the truth is, because as research goes on and as practice changes, we are there is an optimism bias not just in the way people going to have to change the next horizon. Having said deal with children but in the way they look at their that, I think that safeguarding boards are maturing department, because we all like to keep ourselves across the country—that is certainly my experience— cheerful. How effective are you being in making these and we are becoming more successful at holding the people work together? ring, leading the system and banging heads together. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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Sue Woolmore: I would agree in many ways. I think something as simple as how the office is arranged in that we have had growth spurts in the last five years order to save money. since LSCBs became statutory. We are consolidating. I am thinking of this very much from an independent Q571 Lisa Nandy: Given that there are financial chair’s point of view. But we do then encounter new constraints on all agencies and rising demand on many challenges, particularly at the moment. It has been so as well, what can LSCBs do to prevent agencies from interesting listening to these good people describe retreating into their own core functions and to keep excellent, genuine efforts that have been made by big them engaged in the joint task of safeguarding local authorities to get things right for children. children? Obviously we hear a lot of that on safeguarding Jane Held: One of the things we can do is remind boards, but we are interested in what all the players them that they want to sleep at night. This goes back are doing to contribute to that. We know that these to your idea of threatening them with a press people have fewer resources; they have fewer conference. Safeguarding boards are not there to resources to give. We have talked a lot about shroud wave, but they are there to identify the entire thresholds and so on, and there are finite resources, spectrum of practice and the risks of getting it wrong. and the safeguarding board needs to know if there is The need to work together is so paramount to manage rationing and, if there is, which there will be, where risk, which in agencies under pressure is an important the line is falling and what we need to do about that debate, as well as to manage good practice and collectively. excellent outcomes. Those go hand in hand, so our There is still this historical sense that, at the end of job is to make sure that the balance between good the day, it is the local authority’s job. It is everybody’s interrogative challenge and good support, learning and job. That is such a key message that we have to keep evidence goes together to keep those agencies at that driving home. It is very easy now for senior strategic table. managers who are consumed with budget Sue Woolmore: In doing that and having those kinds management to be absolutely genuine in what they are of conversations, you help create an element of trust saying about their commitment to children when they between members. For example, on my own board I sit on the safeguarding board, but when they step out have invited all the agencies to provide impact that door, they are then responsible for adults, statements to the board about what impact there might fractured hips, falls on the ice and nutrition in elderly be on safeguarding for their agency, from either people’s homes as well as all the other things their restructure or budget constraints. You get a mixed individual agencies bring to bear. We have a real job response. Some people feel quite able to be open and task to keep people’s authentic commitment about that and some of difficulties they are going to genuinely focused. We do not always know what we encounter, and the implications that might have for do not know, so we have to ask those questions. We others. Some will be more anxious, because we still do not always have this kind of setting in which to do have that anxiety about headlines and the inspectorate it, because we want to work collaboratively and keep that is going to come in. So a key role for LSCBs is people on board. So it is a very interesting context to create that environment where you can have some that we are working in at the moment and, as honesty about the implications for one agency and independent chairs, I think we have an important role how it might impact on others. So if the police are to play. cutting back and not putting police officers in high schools anymore, they need to understand what Q570 Lisa Nandy: We have just heard about implications that might have for teenagers, for Devon’s model of co-locating professionals, which community safety and so on. Those are the kinds of has been widely praised. In your view is this the best discussions you need to have honestly. way to improve partnership working and, if it is, Jane Held: You need to take those discussions from should everyone be doing it? beyond the board back to the governance Sue Woolmore: My personal view is that co-locating arrangements for each of the key agencies and the is a good thing because, however many computer relevant strategic planning fora. For example, our systems and databases you might have, having a relationship is not just with the chief executive of the face-to-face working relationship with somebody, local authority; it is with the chief constable and it is coming into the office to meet them, is a good thing. with the chief executive and chair of the NHS Trust— Obviously it varies in different authorities. all or few, depending on where you are. We have to In addition to my chairing role, I do a lot of have the relationship within the board and the multi-agency face-to-face training with different relationship outside the board. authorities around the country, which gives me a really interesting window on what it is like for people Q572 Lisa Nandy: I was going to ask you both how on the front line. Certainly they say to me that they you challenge other agencies to raise their game when like that, but I am also now hearing about—partly you think their practices are not up to scratch. because of budget constraints—the way that offices Presumably one of the ways you do it is to take it are arranged. It may seem like a minor issue, but I higher within those organisations to look at the heard of a team of 10 who are now hot-desking and structures and the culture within the organisation. One have been given six desks between 10. You hear a lot of the things that concerns me is, having seen real about agencies where they have to move around. So progress with agencies like the UK Border Agency that cohesiveness and that co-location, where you can and the police in terms of recognising their build those relationships, could easily get disrupted by responsibility—not just to reactively safeguard cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Sue Woolmore and Jane Held children but to proactively ensure that children are people around the table, but there have been so many safe from harm—that becomes increasingly difficult changes and we have lost a lot of professional to do with the pressure they are under, as they are so wisdom. A lot of the chairs of my sub-groups have stretched in managing their core functions. Have you taken early retirement, and as the workforces have seen that and what can your LSCBs do to support diminished, we have lost quite a lot of our expertise. them when they are saying to you that realistically We are now having to recruit, and find the right people they simply cannot do this? to be able to really drive that business forward. Sue Woolmore: There are two places to look at this. Obviously there is that strategic level, and then there Q574 Craig Whittaker: So you just accept that or is finding out what is really happening on the front do you use your power as an independent chair to line, for example through case file audits or more exercise a bit of muscle? detailed case review—there are ways of identifying Sue Woolmore: I would certainly use my role as that. Sometimes we have to acknowledge that certain independent chair. For instance, I met with the police things cannot happen, and then it becomes more superintendent last week in order to resolve the issue political. Then the LSCBs have a responsibility to let of not having sufficient input from the police. As an local and Westminster politicians know what is independent chair, for example, I am engaged for happening in their area. We have to get a true and three days a month. That is better than some; for some honest picture about what is happening and not try to it is only two or even one day a month. Jane, for her gild the lily. mammoth board, has much more than that, but there We also need to work collaboratively, and this is the is a huge inconsistency across the country. The time interesting point about going back and just looking we can invest to exercise that leverage will vary from after your own agency. If somebody is saying that they board to board quite considerably. Without that cannot deliver this, then we need to look elsewhere at independent leverage, you are more likely to fall back how we can. We really must not forget the voluntary into being more local authority led. sector, and they have suffered quite a blow of late in Jane Held: We certainly have the right people around many cases, and they can often step in and engage the top table. In fact, in both Birmingham and Leeds with some of those families in more difficult situations we have had to prune. We had 23 health where perhaps the statutory authorities cannot. For representatives in Birmingham when I joined because instance, we mentioned the UK Border Agency; a of the size of the city and the fact that everybody family with compromised immigration status might be wanted to be at the table. So we are looking at creative more willing to engage with a voluntary sector ways to ensure that we are getting the right people in organisation than they would with a statutory one the right place. I would share Sue’s concerns about because of their anxiety about what might happen to the churn in the system, which has had, and is having, them. an impact, and the strain on the sub-groups and Jane Held: We have a vehicle in the form of an ensuring membership is signed up to and supported in annual report, and certainly my practice is to expect terms of giving resources to staff to do that across all that annual report to be published publicly and agencies. There needs to be the same activity about presented to the governance bodies of each of the bringing it to people’s notice. agencies. I will go and present that report, and both provide the challenge to the agency and respond to Q575 Craig Whittaker: There has been a big move things. That is the part about building a relationship to independent chairs. Does the body miss out on the with accountability behind it and the sense of professionalism of having the DCS as chair? collaboration as well. Sue Woolmore: No, because the DCS will still sit on the board, so all the insight and expertise from the Q573 Craig Whittaker: Who is not on your agency DCS contributes to the board without driving it. I that should be? Who is there but does not send would like to think that they are freed up to contribute sufficiently senior people along? And who does not more easily when they are not having to chair the participate as effectively as you would wish them to? meeting. Sue Woolmore: On my board I would say that I have the key players around the table at the board meeting. Q576 Craig Whittaker: As a previous lead member But the board meeting is only one small part of the for children’s services, the frustrating thing for me LSCB. The key part is the sub-groups that undertake was that, although we had the legal responsibility as the actual business, and on my board we have an lead member, we could never sit on that board. executive board in the middle that oversees the work Luckily, I think, for the last six months they are of the sub-groups. I have noticed in recent months allowed to sit on there, but without any voting rights that it is the contribution of the sub-groups that have as such. Is that right? We expect them to have such a sometimes diminished, because the agencies are still huge legal burden of responsibility and yet we do not able to provide their senior people for the main board give them the powers to participate on your body. but they cannot always spare staff to do some of the Discuss. work in the sub-groups. In my own board it happens to be the police who have really struggled to do this, Q577 Jane Held: I have some views on that one, so I have had a conversation with them and they are which I have discussed with lead members in several going to find the resources to do it, but I suspect they settings, not just the two I am responsible for. Yes, are going to have to take them off somebody else in they should be there. However, if they have voting order to give them to me. So yes, I have the right status, as a multi-agency partnership it begs the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Sue Woolmore and Jane Held question about whether you should have a it really is very helpful in informing practice. So yes, non-executive lead from the other partner agencies of course we have the serious case reviews, and when also on the body and also with voting rights. It is we meet that threshold we need to do them, but I think about the fact that we are multi-agency. it is a shame if an LSCB gets too preoccupied with that because there are many other ways in which we Q578 Craig Whittaker: Even though they do not can review cases to give us more of a running have legal responsibility as lead members do? commentary on safeguarding in the local authority, Jane Held: They do not have the same degree of legal rather than just one-off very tragic cases. Let’s see responsibility; they carry it under the duty to co- what is happening every day. operate, which I think is stronger than people Jane Held: We, in a similar way, will look at the sometimes think. Having said that, I would encourage lessons from serious case reviews. Sadly, being the lead members to be there, and indeed we are chair of two large boards I cannot say that we do not developing a system where we also have buddy have many; we do have a number going through. Both members in both Leeds and Birmingham. So if a lead boards have a quarterly report that pulls out the member cannot attend, another member can. themes from serious case reviews, which is circulated Sue Woolmore: I have a lead member on my board and disseminated. Both boards have seminars, who has been there for years, from the beginning of workshops and training events that are looking at the the safeguarding board, and makes a very valuable themes and lessons that are disseminated. We are contribution. I, as an independent chair, value my working in both boards, in our Quality Assurance and working relationship with her because she does have Performance Management framework, on doing that level of independence. So we meet separately, specific audits to look at the impact of what has apart from the board, and the fact that she does not changed as a consequence of serious case reviews. So vote means that she can hold us to account better. She we do not just tick the actions completed box; we go can hold both me and the board to account because back six months or a year later. she is not party to the actual decision making. I value her as that conduit to the other elected members as Q581 Pat Glass: Do you agree with Sue that the well. systems methodology that Eileen Munro I attend the Children and Young People Overview and recommended is a much better way of learning Scrutiny Committee and take the annual report and lessons from serious case reviews, or particularly from business plan there, and I think it is really important near misses? that the elected members are very mindful of what we Jane Held: I think the systems methodology is indeed are doing, because sometimes we may have some a better methodology, as indeed is root-cause analysis, quite hard messages for them. But the lead member is which is a form of systems methodology. However, very important. Certainly in my role with the National I do not think we should be stuck with one formal Network of Independent Chairs, my sense is that they methodology. We need to have a toolkit of virtually all have elected members on the board. I methodologies that is based in evidence but that you think it would be very rare for them not to be on can apply to particular circumstances due to the the board. breadth and type of reviews you may be looking at and their nature. We use root-cause analysis Q579 Pat Glass: I want to ask you about serious case methodology for all near-miss reviews, our learning reviews. We know that they are not about lessons reviews, for example. We have used a type of investigation but about learning the lessons from framework similar to the full SCIE model for the serious case reviews and taking forward good systems methodology to look at one particular serious practice. In what ways do you use serious case case review. reviews to take forward good practice? Sue Woolmore: We have not had many serious case Q582 Pat Glass: Do you agree with the reviews on my board, but we have had a number of Government’s decision that Ofsted should no longer cases that have been very close to serious case review serious case reviews: yes or no? reviews. Jane Held: Yes. Sue Woolmore: Yes, but they still need to be quality Q580 Pat Glass: So near misses. assured. Sue Woolmore: Yes, some near misses, and they are enormously valuable opportunities to really drill down Q583 Neil Carmichael: Good morning. We are and find out what happened—either what went wrong talking about failing children and young people, or what went right. They do inform our practice a lot. because of course that is a significant problem as well. I really welcome this move towards using the systems What can we do to bring more coherence to the methodology, because it takes us away from trying to protection of teenagers and older children? blame somebody and instead looks at why that Jane Held: It is a challenge because traditionally we seemed like a good thing to do on that particular day. have looked at the safeguarding agenda through For example, on my board we are currently coming to relatively narrow lenses. A lot of the behaviours of the end of a review process using that methodology, children and young people have been seen as teenage and it has highlighted some key issues to us as a board behaviours rather than as safeguarding issues. We about domestic violence. We thought we had really have to develop good information and a good got hold of this in a way that this review is suggesting understanding across the system. So, as Nigel was we need to do more work on. From that point of view, saying earlier, in Leeds we have a lead officer whose cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Sue Woolmore and Jane Held sole responsibility is to work on missing and sexually Q587 Neil Carmichael: While accepting you can exploited children and to ensure that all the dots are always do more about everything, do you think that joined up. So if behaviours are being seen in a school, there is sufficient capacity in the system to recognise they are identified and looked at in lots of ways. We adolescents getting into trouble or going in the wrong have some very close working relationships with the direction? Jane, you are shaking your head. police and the youth justice system; we have to be Jane Held: No, I do not think there is sufficient able to work with them. We have to think about how capacity in the system to fully recognise it and I do we work differently with communities to engage not think there ever will be. Systems inevitably will them, particularly on forced marriage. be constrained; we have to change the way in which we behave with each other. For example, the youth Q584 Chair: The question is how: how are you service could be doing a lot more around going to bring that coherence? We all know that we safeguarding. They probably are doing that, but they need to do it; stating that does not get us anywhere. are sometimes not within the ring, so they tend to be We want to know how you are going to do it. working with young people outside the system rather Jane Held: We have to go out there and be in those than contributing to the system. communities with their representatives working alongside us, understanding why it is important and Q588 Chair: Do you think neglect tends to be supporting us. That includes having young people neglected when it concerns adolescents? That is the involved in the work of the board. issue. Sue Woolmore: Yes, and I think they are often seen Q585 Neil Carmichael: Would you agree with that? as being more self-reliant, more resilient and that they can look after themselves and are not dependent. Just Sue Woolmore: Yes, I would agree with that. We have picking up on what Jane was saying about youth to have conversations between professionals but with services, certainly from speaking to other chairs and young people as well. One of things that is a greater going to other parts of the country, youth services challenge with young people is that they are often have been cut back very significantly. That is very reluctant service users. They do not necessarily particularly true of the voluntary youth services. On want to engage with the services that are trying to my own board, it has been raised repeatedly that youth help them, certainly not in the way we would want services are being lost, and some of those young them to, so we have to have conversations with them. people will lose out. We need to be mindful of that, We have not got there yet; we have a lot of work to hear that message and then resolve together how are do. We have been very focused on babies, toddlers we going to try to militate against it as much as we and the very young ones for a long time, and it has can. been too easy to let some of the older children drift to the edge of the radar screen; we really have to bring Q589 Neil Carmichael: What about the situation in them back in. schools? Obviously young people should still be in education. What kind of relationship are you Q586 Neil Carmichael: There are two problems: one developing with schools in your patch? is that there is bound to be more agency independence Sue Woolmore: Schools are absolutely crucial, with older children by definition, and secondly older because that is where most young people will be. children are themselves going to feel more There is the issue that was alluded to earlier about independent in a society where that is encouraged. some schools becoming academies or free schools, That must make your task all the harder. So on the perhaps thinking they are slightly outside that system first task in particular, how do you manage to co- and needing to bring them in. That is not a major issue ordinate agencies? in the local authority of my board, but there are some Jane Held: Through protocols, through developing starting, so we will need to engage with them. We agreements, through developing shared need to get alongside young people in schools if we understandings, through having sets of requirements can. You were asking earlier about what we would on agencies and through having specific staff who want to change if we could, and we were talking about work across agencies. parenting and so on. If I had a magic wand, I would Sue Woolmore: From the safeguarding board’s point use it to help children and young people start of view, it is about bringing groups of those agencies understanding what being a parent is about and what and professions together to have conversations and the needs of children are. Until you understand what ask the kinds of questions you are asking, and find a child’s needs are, you do not know how to address some local solutions to that and work with the them and meet them as a parent. I think we should be resources they have. That is still a challenge; we starting right back in school. cannot sit here and pretend that all we need is a conversation and then it will happen; there needs to Q590 Neil Carmichael: What about those who are be something to support that in terms of resources. not going to school but should be? This is a particular multi-agency one, where the role Sue Woolmore: We have to know where they are and, of the police, for example, is so important. It often as Jane said, that is where you have to get the different easy to label young people as perpetrators rather than people talking together. Having one person in an victims, so we need to bring the police in, and authority with that responsibility is a start, but it is health—there are mental health issues as well for only a start. The difficulty is that other people think, young people. It needs to be done at a local level. “That is not my job; it is that person’s job to oversee cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Sue Woolmore and Jane Held what is happening about children who are missing, so Sue Woolmore: My board is not actively involved in I do not need to do that.” So it is about how you make setting the threshold, but we would scrutinise those sure that everybody is taking that shared that are set. There is a co-location plan within Wigan, responsibility. coming together and bringing different professionals into the one location, and they will then deal with all Q591 Chair: What impact will the Southwark referrals coming through. So it will be the role of the Judgment have on how your authority provides for board to scrutinise that. This is a difficult task, and I adolescents in need? would like to refer to some of the work of the Sue Woolmore: I feel that our board is very well Independent LSCB Chairs’ Network, which has had served by our housing director, who is very involved three national meetings in the last few months in in the board and very committed to what we do. different regions, looking at this issue of how LSCBs Wigan is actually working very closely with the look at what is really happening in their area to be Greater Manchester cluster. There are 10 local able to measure the effectiveness and whether children authorities in Greater Manchester, and so there is are getting what they need, rather than just number some very good collective work being done through a crunching and looking at outcomes. So we are safeguarding partnership across the boroughs. That is collaborating together to find a way of being able to another very important development: that we do not get the right kind of soft intelligence and the just look at what we are doing locally and then qualitative information as well as the quantitative duplicate effort, but that we do come together. These information. That is definitely work in progress, but it young people will move across those boundaries quite is not easy and you cannot do it on the back of an easily. That is how we are addressing it—looking at envelope. This is a really big task, but there is some working with those other authorities. really good collaborative working going on. Jane Held: It has not had a significant impact on either of our boards. We have good housing Q595 Ian Mearns: Are you quite confident that, in representation and there are good protocols and the authorities you work in, the thresholds are systems in place. There are always capacity and understood and held in common by all the partner resource issues about the quality of the housing that agencies? young people are provided with, and we are keeping Sue Woolmore: No, I do not think you could ever an eye on that. say that. Jane Held: No, I do not think you could ever be Q592 Ian Mearns: To be honest, having one person confident about thresholds being completely looking after the caseload of youngsters missing from understood, nor indeed do I think that having a school in a city the size of Leeds—just overseeing concept of a threshold that needs to be understood is it—sounds a bit like a gesture. necessarily helpful, because of the perverse Jane Held: They are not looking after the caseload. consequences that Nigel was outlining earlier. It is What they are doing is triggering everybody else’s very complex work, and I completely agree with Sue caseloads. They are looking at the intelligence, the that we have to have much more sophisticated quality information, pulling it together and then saying to the assurance and management systems that look at all of key people, “What are you doing about it?” the dimensions of how we are working with children and families around those complex areas of need, Q593 Ian Mearns: Are they managing to keep up increasing need, reducing need and how we make sure with their in-tray? we are getting it right. Jane Held: I think we might have to expand the team in the relatively near future. Q596 Ian Mearns: In my life I have come across an awful lot of professionals working in education, in Q594 Ian Mearns: To what extent do your boards particular, where they have just given up making involve themselves in setting and reviewing referrals about concerns of neglect because the thresholds for assessment and intervention in the thresholds for intervention from social services were authorities that you work in? Should you be more just too high for them to do anything about that. Do involved in that work? you think that is something we really do need to Jane Held: We are completely involved in it in both combat in order to reinvigorate the confidence in the Birmingham and Leeds. We are supporting the system, or do you think we are miles away from that? developments, and in Leeds we have just set up a Jane Held: I think we need to do two things. One is sub-group to challenge the developments that Nigel that we need to establish why they are fed up: are they was talking about the front door and make sure they fed up because they want to pass the parcel and take have the right rigour as well as the right conversations the risk away, or are they fed up because they are not and relationships. That is so that the front door does getting the support they need to do the job they need not result in people being missed. The board, in its to do with the families? Do they want to move the performance framework, inevitably should be looking family on; is it is a problem they are going to get rid really hard at the data around all those issues and of? That question has to be constantly asked with all stimulating the challenge and the debate about those the agencies because to work well with families you things. So it is absolutely central; it is one of the three have to work together, and you may well have to agree key priorities on the Leeds board and will be one of that it is quite right to have made the referral, but the five on the Birmingham board. “should we just have a discussion, and if we give you cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Sue Woolmore and Jane Held this, can you continue to do that?” rather than saying, Sue Woolmore: That is causing so much concern and “Let’s move the chid into the system.” anxiety amongst LSCB chairs generally: how the Sue Woolmore: I fear that what you just described is reconfiguration of the NHS is going to impact on this still very familiar territory for many people. I hear multi-agency collaborative working, because there is this when I go to different local authorities and I am not such clarity about where the different delivering multi-agency training. I tend to focus very responsibilities are going to lie. Obviously there are much on working with resistant families: those that the Commissioning Groups, there will be the Health really do not want professional involvement. I hear and Wellbeing Boards and how they are going to repeatedly, particularly from schools, that they make relate to LSCBs? It is not altogether clear as yet. referrals but nothing much happens. I also witness the There is a lot of local discussion going on. We are actual distress from head teachers, because they see also waiting for the national decisions to be made and these children morning, noon and night, and they for that lead to be taken. witness it first-hand. So there are clearly still issues Ultimately though, who is going to hold on to the around thresholds. responsibility for safeguarding within the NHS? GPs Equally, we know there are local authorities that only themselves will be both commissioners and providers. have finite resources, and that is why it is incumbent That is a very interesting double hat that they will be on us as a board to work out what is really happening wearing, and it is the kind of thing that other services on the patch. At one of our national meetings I have tried to avoid in recent years. They have tended recently learnt that what some chairs do is have focus to separate commissioning from providing, but GPs groups, where they bring teachers together in a room will be wearing both hats. with members of the board or social workers and find out what life is really like. They are hearing from the Q600 Ian Mearns: What action are you and the local front line, rather than just what senior management authorities you work in taking with regard to children want them to believe. on child protection plans, whose families may come into conflict with housing and benefit change reforms, Q597 Chair: Are things better in Birmingham now, and therefore be forced to move? Are you looking at Jane? I remember the Khyra Ishaq case, where the trying to make any specific measures to look after the trousers were falling off one of her brothers because interests of children on child protection plans? he was so malnourished, and the teacher rang again Jane Held: I have to be honest that we have not yet and again and again and got no reaction. identified the measures, certainly on one of the boards, Jane Held: Things are getting better in Birmingham, because we are still working on a coherent but there is a long road to travel and Birmingham is performance framework. We have had a board very aware of the long road it has to travel. I do not discussion about the potential impact on that board. think Birmingham is confident that it has improved On the other board we are beginning to identify what significantly yet. If Eleanor was sitting here she would indicators will help us notice if it is having an impact. say the same thing. Having said that, we are working But we are doing that work jointly with the Children’s very hard together to develop new models of working Trust Board, who have that as an issue on their so you do not get that situation where there is an business plan. acceptance of a degree of poverty and neglect as the norm and people get frustrated because they do not refer in. Q601 Ian Mearns: Do you think there is any case Going back to your conversation about schools: I am for families with children on a child protection plan meeting with each of the Birmingham Schools to be somehow exempt from the impacts of these Forums, as I do with the Leeds forums, to hear what changes? What do you think about that? life is like in schools. There are huge challenges. The Sue Woolmore: I think that is an important question reconfiguration in Birmingham has made the to ask. beginning of a difference; the data are beginning to Chair: Beat your kids, keep your house. It does not show that there is a difference, but as a board we are sound like a good idea. concerned about the sustainability of that difference Sue Woolmore: If you were to speak to LSCBs in the and are working hard to be assured of that. London boroughs, they would have a much stronger view on this, because it is far more likely to affect Q598 Ian Mearns: I think Damian was slightly taken their families as the cost of housing is so much higher. aback with the 60,000 referrals in Leeds. What is the When you are talking about some of the areas we are figure for Birmingham? covering, it is perhaps less of an issue, but I know Jane Held: I think you might have had the there are other LSCB chairs that are deeply concerned Birmingham figure, because it was me that said 5,000 about this. from the back of the room. I think the Leeds figure is between 2,000 and 3,000 a month and the Q602 Ian Mearns: I think the Chair has identified a Birmingham figure is 5,000 a month. I can check it potential perverse incentive. and get back to you in writing. Jane Held: We have identified in Leeds that we may be a net importer because we have quite a significant Q599 Ian Mearns: Thank you. Is it clear to you how housing stock, so it is a receiving issue for Leeds the child protection structures will work in the new rather than a transfer issue. I think it is a huge health landscape, in particular the roles of named and challenge, and I am concerned about the impact of the designated doctors and nurses? changes on our neglect figures. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o006_th_6 - Corrected (7 March 2012).xml
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7 March 2012 Sue Woolmore and Jane Held
Q603 Pat Glass: I just have a very quick question that Durham have been using, and they are now there to finish. I understand that there are only nine local for other LSCBs to look at. That is not to say that authorities in the country that are judged to be Durham is claiming to be the ultimate LSCB. outstanding on child protection. My own county of Durham is one of them. How good are you at sharing Q604 Pat Glass: Are they good at ticking the boxes information with those outstanding local authorities or are they really good? to find out what they are doing that is making such Ian Mearns: Or are they just lucky? a difference? Sue Woolmore: Well, Ofsted made that discernment Sue Woolmore: With regard to the Independent LSCB and I hope they were discerning. Certainly we are Chairs’ Network, that is one of the main things we are looking to share learning between LSCBs, so we are aiming to do. We had the Chair of Durham LSCB not reinventing wheels and we can adopt good addressing us about their success just about three practice. weeks ago and sharing with us the tools. We now have Chair: Thank you both very much indeed for giving an online site where I put all the tools and templates evidence to us today. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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Wednesday 16 May 2012
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Alex Cunningham Ian Mearns Damian Hinds Craig Whittaker Charlotte Leslie ______
Examination of Witness
Witness: Peter Davies, Chief Executive, Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, gave evidence.
Q605 Chair: Good morning, Mr Davies, and bad five years ago or three years ago, but they are welcome to this hearing of the Education Committee better now. I have been serving on Committees for on the child protection system in England. It is a seven years—I have not been in Parliament very pleasure to have you with us. Following on from last long—and I am for ever hearing that. People are week’s case in Rochdale and a similar situation in always telling me that things are better now than they Carlisle, I would like to ask you whether these cases were. I am still trying to understand, regardless of demonstrate that the police simply do not respond awareness, which fades, as we know, after there have appropriately when they hear about young people been some high-profile cases—a few years pass and falling victim to abuse and exploitation. institutional memory lapses—how it is that a 12-year- Peter Davies: May I just mention to other members old girl could complain to the police three times in of the Committee—I am sure it is clear to you—that 2008 and be turned away with no action on each I sit here wearing two hats, one as the chief executive occasion. I am looking system-wide, rather than officer of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection asking you to answer on the specifics, which I know Centre and the other as the lead for the Association of you cannot be judge and jury on. I am trying to Chief Police Officers for England, Wales and Northern understand what it is about the system that makes that Ireland on child protection and child abuse possible in order for us to understand how to investigation? If it becomes necessary, I may improve it. occasionally tell you which hat I am wearing during Peter Davies: Let me be clear: if that is what an answer. I am going to have to wear both to answer happened in those cases, it is unacceptable and not the your question. way the police service should respond. A lot of work I think the cases are indicative of a number of has gone in, partly from my centre and partly from different things. I have read the press reports, and both police forces across the country, to improve the of them contain references to victims having given service. And of course I point out that the Rochdale earlier indications of what was going on that allegedly case, the Cumbria case and the other cases that have were not picked up by forces early enough. On that had a very high profile in the last year do actually score, I will be honest with you: I am not terribly demonstrate that these are now being picked up by surprised, although I do not know whether those police forces and that people would not be being allegations are true. Clearly, they need to be properly brought to justice in the volume that they are around investigated and validated. the country without police forces dealing effectively There is a major issue nationally, not restricted to the with these allegations. There is a lot of action that I police service, about picking up the risk indicators and can talk you through if you would like to firm up the signs of children being victims of this kind of sexual awareness, the training and the processes well beyond exploitation. I think it is fair to say that, during the expecting people to read the newspapers and watch kind of period that both these allegations of not acting the news. So my optimism that things are better now fast enough appear to refer to, the police service, in has some evidence to support it, quite apart from my line with the rest of the nation, was less well informed knowledge of the level of awareness at every level of and less aware of the prevalence of this kind of the police service about the need to get this particular offending than it is now. In my professional judgment, thing right. in 2008–09, for example, the likelihood that a local But I will go back to the point: how was it possible police officer or member of police staff would pick for that to happen? Police forces are huge warehouses up the symptoms—spot them—and feed them into a of information. You are relying on the front-line system that was capable of understanding them and person to spot the risk factors that someone is subject responding appropriately was far less than it is now, to this kind of abuse and sexual exploitation, which is but I do not think that is restricted to the police not straightforward. Information that sits within police service. There is a far wider issue about how well all forces sometimes goes astray and sometimes does not the agencies that come into face-to-face contact with end up at the right address—that is a common issue, particularly vulnerable children and young people deal not just in police forces, but is part of what goes on. with the information they get from them. I will reiterate what I said. Of course we know about this case because the police did eventually pick this Q606 Chair: I am particularly interested in the up and do the right thing. police. Our experience sitting here is that often our The other thing that I would say is that my centre— witnesses come and tell us that yes, things were pretty CEOP—published a thematic assessment on this issue cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies in July last year. It was called “Out of Mind, Out of That has been committed to personally by the Home Sight” and I expect that members of the Committee Secretary and successive Ministers, and that is live in are well aware of it. We came to some quite stark the sense that we are still able to do that. So, I think conclusions, which I would like to point out, if I may, at the time Jim was in the centre it was quite because I think they are relevant to your question. legitimate to be concerned about that. The situation Chair: Please do. has been managed so that it is far less of a risk now. Peter Davies: One is that it is very clear that unless local agencies working together actively to look for Q608 Craig Whittaker: If I just draw you down a signs of child sexual exploitation, not only will they bit further on that point: obviously we have got a big not spot it but they might delude themselves into drive nationally to, at local level, have much more thinking that it does not exist in their area. Our view, integrated working between the police and local and it is a view that I know is shared by the Children’s authorities, and a whole range of partners. This just Commissioner for England, who will report very doesn’t seem to be in tune with what we are trying to shortly, is that it is far more prevalent than people do at local level—putting into a bigger national realise. It is a largely hidden type of crime and central-type agency. How does that balance itself? victimisation, and one of the things that local services Peter Davies: I think it is a valid point. A centre like must do is to proactively look for it. Quite often, the CEOP, which is actually quite small in terms of report that leads to action is made not to the police or headcount—about 120 people—needs to live any of the other agencies but to an NGO, a charity or somewhere under the wing of a larger organisation; a group doing front-line work with children. One of and actually CEOP, since its inception, has been an the things that must be done, is increasingly being affiliate of the Serious Organised Crime Agency. So, done and has certainly proved to be done in some of with the dissolution of the Serious Organised Crime these cases, is that the police service, like others, Agency and the creation of a National Crime Agency, needs to listen more attentively to the information that in a sense that is more like business as usual for CEOP it is getting through those sources. I think it is an than a massive change. The unique character of CEOP improving picture, and a lot of work is being done is that we are a law enforcement-led child protection through ACPO and the centre to develop that picture centre, and I sense every commitment that we will be further. These cases are evidence of police able to continue to be so under the NCA. As I say, responding—perhaps not as quickly as they should— we have always been under the wing of the Serious but let me be perfectly clear that not responding to a Organised Crime Agency since our start, so it is not report of this nature, if that is what happened, does as if there is going to be a radical change. not feel acceptable to me as someone charged with The kind of things that SOCA currently does for us, trying to lead the police service in tackling child that the NCA will do, include the provision of all the protection issues. human resources services, ICT services, finance services: and the cost to CEOP of trying to own those Q607 Craig Whittaker: I just want to turn your services ourselves would run to several million thought processes to your predecessor Jim Gamble, pounds. We have a lot of benefits in terms of resilience who resigned over the role of CEOP being integrated and the ability to take better care of our staff through into what will eventually be the National Crime being part of a larger organisation. Those are benefits Agency—the Serious Organised Crime Agency as it we enjoy now, and I think we ought to enjoy them in is now. One of things that he said was about the the future. inability to be able to recruit specialists in the area in a bigger organisation. Do you agree with him? I take the point, though, that child protection is Peter Davies: I have a lot of respect for Jim; I do not absolutely a partnership endeavour, and being part of think that the centre would be the fantastic place that a National Crime Agency is something that needs to it is without him having shown the level of leadership be managed carefully. I think what will work is that and drive that he did in its early years. I do not agree we genuinely preserve the unique nature of CEOP, with him on that point. I have found it possible for us which is a major asset, in my opinion, to this country, to recruit very experienced specialised people. Many and is something that is the envy of many other of the people we recruit more directly from the countries, and that we manage that potential risk in Serious Organised Crime Agency or other parts of the perception in a way that does not do any harm. People civil service are excellent high-quality people as well. will know whether CEOP is the same kind of My issue with recruitment is not the lack of organisation, in a year or two years’ time. They will availability of specialists, it is that actually, at the feel it, and it won’t be about where we are lodged in moment, with the recruitment restraints placed on us terms of the wider architecture; it will be about as well as on other public agencies, it is more difficult whether it still feels the same, or even better, to deal to get the talented people into the centre. with us. One of the ways in which we, with the absolute support of Government, tried to secure the unique Q609 Craig Whittaker: Can I just ask you, then, nature of CEOP and to make sure it was capable of about trafficked children? There has been some operating just as effectively, if not more, in the criticism that police treat children who are trafficked National Crime Agency was to outline six differently, quite often treating them as criminals organisational principles that help make us work. One rather than victims, particularly when they are forced of those is the ability to attract, recruit, retain and into the sex trade or, indeed, cannabis factories, as has develop staff from a variety of different disciplines. been widely reported. Is that the case? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies
Peter Davies: I think it is certainly the case. It terms of actually getting their heads around the happens, and what we are trying to do along with our complexity of this range of problems? colleagues in SOCA’s UK Human Trafficking Centre Peter Davies: I think there is always room for things is develop better practice, so that it is better being done more quickly. I do not sense a lack of understood that children who may initially present as urgency, and I personally have no lack of urgency offenders might actually be victims. This actually about it. There are so many areas for development in reads across to the issue that is the subject of Mr the provision of services that rescue and protect Stuart’s question, which is child sexual exploitation. children and young people, not just within policing One of the problems with picking up information from but elsewhere. It is all urgent; it is all very important. some of these kids is they may first present to us as The kind of work that ACPO has done, in terms of offenders for some kind of petty crime. Police services advancing the agenda, is not just about the publication and police officers—I have been a police officer for of Out of Mind, Out of Sight last year, although I do over 26 years—tend to categorise people, and if think that was very significant; it is providing someone is in the offender category, it is sometimes awareness training and packages for front-line more hard to categorise them at the same time as a workers. We are about to launch a short video victim. That is about awareness. That is about training designed to be seen by any front-line police worker, and processes that support people in taking that raising awareness as to what child sexual exploitation longer view. is about and also what kind of risk factors to look for. It is absolutely true to say that there are children These things take time to be done properly. trafficked into this country and around this country who are simultaneously technically offenders and Q611 Chair: How systematic is it? victims. I am sitting here before you today saying the Peter Davies: How systematic is— police service and everybody else involved in Chair: We know the abuse is systematic and providing a response need to understand how complex sustained. Videos are available for these people, but the lives of some of these kids are, and make sure that how many of them are going to see them? How many they are dealt with effectively. It is hugely difficult people are getting these packages? How many people sometimes to unpick the victim and offender nexus. have been trained so far? Show us the urgency not Some of the cases of child sexual exploitation that just in intent, but in action. preceded the Rochdale one, that have attracted Peter Davies: Okay. Well, the training package, which attention from the same newspapers, clearly show a is designed for all front-line staff, is about to be level of complicity and collaboration by children in published through ACPO. I cannot require every force the victimisation of other children. They themselves to show it to every front-line worker, and I welcome any sense of urgency that people can inject into local may have started out as victims but have become, at forces to make sure that they receive the training some level, offenders at the same time. package and do it properly. I think it is really important that the police service, CEOP, the National Crime Agency and everybody Q612 Chair: If we looked at this again in a year’s else try to rethink their services around a really good time, Mr Davies, what would success look like? We understanding of what it is like to live a day in the know there is a problem and we know materials are lives of these kids, and see the extent to which some being put in place, but it is your role—and it is our of the ways they present, and some of the things they role—to make sure that the theory converts into experience, cross over the boundaries or the borders practice. that we tend to draw for ourselves in our minds, Peter Davies: Of course. Success would be, first and whether it is victim, offender, missing child, or child very importantly, a really good, accurate training in care. None of these categories means that much to package that sends the right messages to people, so a child living that kind of life. We need to rearrange that they do the right things. We will produce that, our services so that we can understand what is going and the number of people who viewed it will be a on with them, identify them, assess the risk and start. It will be easy then to say, “Well, they may have provide the best support we can to them to rescue viewed it, but have they done anything any different?” them—“rescue” is not too strong a word—from the Another indicator of success would be more of these situation they are in. cases coming through the courts. Another indicator of success would be the ability to demonstrate something Q610 Ian Mearns: The area we have gone into is that has happened already, which is the provision of understandably quite complex, as you have specialist support and advice—not just from my categorised it, in terms of the mindset of police centre, but from others—to police forces trying to officers dealing with someone who appears, on the tackle some of these crimes. face of it, to be worthy of being investigated for It is worth bearing in mind that investigations such as criminal activity themselves. On the complexity of the the one that came to a conclusion in Rochdale last backgrounds of many of these children, which you week after a successful prosecution take a long time have clearly identified, do you think there is enough to do properly. They have to be carefully planned. The urgency in the police service nationally when it comes balance has to be struck between the need to secure a to getting to grips with this? We are actually seeing— successful prosecution and lock people up, and to not recent cases that have been identified have highlighted allow further harm to come to children who are this—the systematic abuse of children over prolonged victims. These are very difficult, complex risk periods. Is there a lack of urgency among police, in calculations that we are asking police officers to make. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies
We already provide every support to them in doing identify where that child is, using the limited internet- that, and we are providing logistical support in cases based information that ChildLine has. such as this. We started helping ChildLine with that between one and two years ago, and we do provide a 24-hour Q613 Craig Whittaker: I want to take you back very service to help identify children at serious risk, so that briefly, Peter, to my question about trafficked children. ChildLine can identify which police force to contact. You were quite open and straight about what needs to I have to tell you that providing that service is now a be done. Can I just pin you down to a date or a source of strain to our staff because the volume has timeline, perhaps? When are we going to see on the grown. We do not run a full 24/7 service; we run about front line the turning of the stone—I know that is one 10 or 12 hours a day, and then do on-call. Some of of your sayings—so that police officers are more able my staff look extremely tired some mornings, because to predict a victim rather than a perpetrator? they have had to spend one or two hours during their Peter Davies: I think that we are already seeing it. sleep time dealing with some of these referrals. There Although I did not have a chance to set this out at the must be a better solution. I have had a discussion with start, you will have seen in my written submission Andrew Flanagan, the chief executive of the NSPCC, what the role of ACPO is. It is to provide leadership, about the need to find one. Finding the right place for national guidance and representation. It is no part of this technical facility has yet to be sorted out, but we my current role to direct police forces on what to do. are holding the line. Of course the people with whom That is the responsibility of local chief constables. We I am proud to work in CEOP will do everything they brought an issue to light very clearly last year. Local can to protect a child who is at serious risk of harm. safeguarding children boards are generally but not I think the system is at capacity, and we need to find exclusively independently chaired, and include police, a longer-term solution, because more children will go children’s services, and other agencies that have a online to contact ChildLine in future, and I think we footprint in local areas and should work together to will not be able to sustain the 24/7 service. deal with safeguarding issues. There is a big area for development for LSCBs if they are to get on top of Q615 Chair: We are aware of that. We have met this issue. That is not diverting attention away from them and they told us that your staff are doing exactly policing. We are doing everything that we can to make what you said they were doing. You said that there sure that police practitioners are more aware, better needs to be a solution; why is there not one? You have trained and better supported to spot and assess the been doing it for two years. Your staff are getting up risks, and deliver successful investigations and in the middle of the night. ChildLine feels like it is safeguarding interventions. leaning on them for overwhelming reasons. What is The police service does not act on its own. The best the solution? leadership for tackling this on the ground is local Peter Davies: There are two or three options. I had a leadership. The structures exist; local safeguarding discussion about this with Andrew Flanagan, the chief children boards are structures that exist and that exec, a month or two ago, and we are about to revisit should own this. The evidence that we found last year that discussion. The NSPCC is currently able to get was that many had not spotted the stone, let alone other local services to resolve phone numbers done by lifted it. That is improving at the moment, and there other means. The legislation means that it has to use is every sign that the standard of public debate, and a police service of some kind to resolve those IP of national practitioners’ debate, on the issue has addresses. advanced a great deal in the last year, but it will not make any difference—you are right—until local Q616 Chair: Do you want the legislation to be action changes. The cases coming through show that changed? that is happening to some degree, but there is still a Peter Davies: A change in legislation that would long way to go for the police service. enable organisations such as ChildLine to resolve those themselves would certainly help. There are very Q614 Craig Whittaker: Okay. May I turn your few options for how to do this within the police attention to people like ChildLine, and ask you service at the present time. We could ask a large force whether CEOP should offer more of a technical role such as the Metropolitan police to do it. We are to them, particularly as regards children who contact contemplating that, depending on the outcome of the them and who are at serious and immediate risk of conversations with the NSPCC, but a solution must harm? Are you in a position to offer 24/7 technical be found. advice to those people? If not, who should provide that service? Q617 Chair: When will you get this resolved? Peter Davies: There is a close relationship between Peter Davies: Well, it is not something I can resolve CEOP and the NSPCC, which of course owns myself. It is something I need to resolve in partnership ChildLine. We have a team of child protection with the NSPCC. As I say, we have started the advisers who are wholly funded by the NSPCC, who conversation. It is urgent, from my point of view, and work within CEOP and advise all our investigators it is increasingly urgent. There are very few options and other teams on child protection issues. We have a on the table, given the current legislation. If the close relationship with ChildLine. One of the services legislation were to change to enable more selected that CEOP currently provides is that where a child organisations to resolve internet identities in certain contacts ChildLine online—not by telephone—and circumstances, so that the owners of them could be there is an indicator of serious risk, we try to help to identified and rescued, that would— cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies
Q618 Chair: If there are any changes that you need Q622 Craig Whittaker: So will a child getting in the law, please write to us as part of this inquiry. abused at home, for example, have access to that Peter Davies: I would be glad to. number? Peter Davies: That is a more complicated question, Q619 Alex Cunningham: What does ChildLine because the helpline is for runaway and missing actually need to be able to access that information? At children. There is ChildLine. There are a number of the moment it needs specific IT specialists in order to different options for children. It is a difficult trace it. What should it have? judgment, in my view—how many different options Peter Davies: Well, what it needs is access to the and helplines you provide. CEOP online, for example, ability to take an e-mail address or an internet identity receives reports from children and members of the and legally turn it into a name and address. What that public with concerns. Many of them do not relate to will require at the moment is access through a law our core business, which is child sexual exploitation. enforcement organisation. That involves contact with What we do is to pass them on to the right the service provider, whether it is the internet service organisation that can help. I am not sure what the provider or the communications service provider—the solution is to this. It feels like having a lot of helplines people who own the data. for different areas might get too confusing, but on the missing children front, as I say, that is literally going to happen this month. Q620 Alex Cunningham: So you would be looking to compel those people to provide that information to Q623 Craig Whittaker: So from what you are ChildLine in certain circumstances. saying, basically, a child getting abused at home has Peter Davies: That would be one of the alternatives, to run away from home before they can get hold of a yes. At the moment, that can be done for a variety of national helpline number. law enforcement reasons, and protecting children at Peter Davies: Well, no, I don’t think that is what I am high risk is certainly one of those. There is an saying; what I am saying is that a child being abused established route through the police service and a law at home has a number of options about what to do. enforcement organisation to do it. The options are to They can report it online to CEOP, or to ChildLine, or expand the capacity that we have, which is difficult in to a number of people who are a bit closer to home—a these times, to do that piece of work to find a solution responsible adult, a teacher, a medical worker, a police that is more sustainable. This will only grow and grow officer. There are a number of different ways of and grow, and a solution that might meet current reporting it. If they contact one of the helplines and it demands will probably not meet them in a year or two. is not quite the right helpline for them, there are My preference, although it sounds as if it is taking a sensible people at the other end who will get the long time, is to find a sustainable long-term solution, information to the right people. and legislation might be a better one in the long term than putting a few more resources into an already Q624 Chair: What about professionals, adults and stretched organisation. other concerned individuals? Awareness of ChildLine Chair: We have lots to cover, so if we can keep both will not be perfect, but it is there for that child being questions and answers short and sharp, that would be abused—but a lot of teachers and other people suggest great. that they bounce off. The authorities do not feel that it is taken seriously. Would there be case for a national Q621 Craig Whittaker: A final one for you in this line where there is a concern about child safety? session. Every young person to whom this Committee Peter Davies: Forgive me, are you talking about has spoken who has run away or left home and professionals who have received reports who are not become vulnerable has said that they did not know sure what to do? who to contact once they left home. Is there a case for Chair: I am talking about having a single, national a national contact point that can filter the points? The point of contact for any adult—rather than the child— Minister says not, by the way. who has child protection concerns. Would that offer Peter Davies: Well, yes. There is going to be a benefits? national contact point for runaway and missing Peter Davies: I am ambivalent about it. I am not children. It will be the national missing children’s saying no. I observe that there are a lot of sources of helpline on 116000. It will be launched on 25 May— help already, and the bigger issue that I have is how this month—on International Missing Children’s Day, well people use them. I appreciate that you need me so there will be that helpline available and it will be to cover some ground, but if I can use a brief example, answered by the missing children’s charity. In CEOP provides some excellent materials for parents addition, CEOP will be building a missing kids and children on internet safety, on our website and website, which is an initiative publishing details of through a network of volunteers who deliver it into children who have gone missing. It will guide kids to classrooms. There are still a lot of people out there sources of advice and help, and to a number of who have never seen those pieces of information and different referral areas. So a helpline for runaway and do not know that they are there. missing children is literally going to happen later this I am no expert on helplines, but my personal judgment month, and it is part of a Europe-wide attempt to put is that we may end up with too many. Consolidating set numbers in place—memorable numbers that them all into one seems to involve the creation of a people have a good chance of remembering—and large organisation that does not currently exist. It may provide the service behind them. well be that the better way to deal with the present cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies situation is to do more awareness and make sure that age groups of children. In this inquiry that we are a more people use the opportunities that are already conducting, we have a particular focus—not an there for them. exclusive one—on older teenagers who are 15 to 19. With your experience at CEOP, could you say a word Q625 Damian Hinds: Before I come on to what I about how different age groups are more, or less, want to ask about, I want to pursue this point about vulnerable to different types of abuse online? helplines, if I may. I apologise for that. We can only Peter Davies: Thank you; I will. The age group I report on things that have actually been said in the would focus on is probably that between the age when session, so even if something seems blindingly they start doing social networking and the age at obvious, we have to discuss it with you, and you have which they become adults at 18. Opinions vary about to give an opinion. when people start social networking. Technically, they I am fascinated to know the thinking behind should not before they are 13, but there are no real introducing a new helpline. I think the 116000 is for checks to ensure that they do not. Nearly every child children. My background is in marketing. Part of that in this country is online and a fair proportion now is trying to make people remember memorable phone have smart phones, so they are online wherever they lines. If something is a regular purchase—something are. Actually, what we are finding in CEOP is that the someone is doing once a month, say, or once a week— differentiation between online and offline is it is hard enough. In general, running away is not increasingly artificial for anybody under 25 and something you are doing that often, so I would certainly for our target clients. suggest that the chances of a child’s knowing this The risks that children at that age face on the internet memorable phone number at the point at which they are, first, self-generated risk—the practice commonly have just run away are vanishingly small. When you called sexting, which is taking indecent images of have brands—forgive my using the term “brand”—or themselves and sending them to a friend who sends trusted names that people know, like ChildLine, the them on to other people, at which point the image gets NSPCC or even the local council, presumably there is out there on the internet and cannot be retrieved. One far more chance of those being top of mind at the of the biggest areas of risk is kids taking risks for right moment. I accept that it is a different question themselves. What we are trying to do with that is when you talk about adults and people in social care, educate them about the risk and make them feel who may be doing this regularly. What are your empowered to manage the risk and know what to do thoughts on that? if it goes wrong. Peter Davies: I agree with you, hence my observation In terms of child abuse imagery, which some people that creating another helpline may not be hugely call child pornography—we call it child abuse useful. One of the issues about 116000 is that it will imagery and the law calls it indecent images of not just be a UK number. For example, if a child who children—unfortunately, I have to tell you that the is trafficked from one country to another knows a apparent age of the victims in images is getting lower number that works around the world that can get them and that the level of severity of the images is also help, I think that is value-added—a UK national getting worse. Of course, that is not a voluntary thing; helpline will not provide that. there is no participation of any consensual kind on the part of the victims there. That is a different type of Q626 Damian Hinds: I think it’s a European one, risk, but it has an internet footprint as well. because 118 is the standard European for directory The biggest area of risk for teenagers on the internet is inquiries, so presumably 116 is the standard for the risk they may create for themselves by publishing helplines of one sort or another. inappropriate information, getting tangled up with a Peter Davies: Yes. Given the number of kids who are predatory offender who exploits their social moved around the country—whether abducted by networking site or their naivety in order to meet or to parents or trafficked—and may not even know the get them to abuse themselves online, which happens emergency 999 number, because that is different in alarmingly frequently, or by simply taking risks for different countries, if there is a number that they can themselves and losing control of their identity and have confidence in, and wherever they are in a fair their privacy. old chunk of the world, they can call it and there will be help, that is good thing. Q628 Damian Hinds: I am glad that you mentioned You are clearly more of an expert than I am on the sexting. The NSPCC’s report on this came out on whole issue of marketing and awareness, but there is Monday. an awful lot of activity going on around International Peter Davies: Indeed. Missing Children’s Day and subsequently, to launch Damian Hinds: It is a very interesting and the number and make people aware of it. It is disturbing report. International Missing Children’s Day, so the same Peter Davies: Yes. message is going out across a number of other Damian Hinds: It reports on girls aged 13. countries with which we partner. It is not a precise Apparently, it is quite widespread. I think it accepts science; whatever helpline you put together, there will that it is not a statistically valid survey, but always be a risk that some people who need it most nevertheless, even if it is half-right, they are routinely will not be aware of it. That is an operational reality. sending naked or semi-naked pictures of themselves to boys, and as you say, these things may get Q627 Damian Hinds: I also want to ask about the distributed and used as currency. How often do the differential vulnerability to online abuse in different police come across those cases? How often are they cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies referred? What is the police’s experience of the sorts you I share it—which is, “Just don’t do it.” Life would of age groups involved and so on? be easier for everybody to say no if that message were Peter Davies: There aren’t any really reliable national loud and clear. You may just not be able to answer figures that can gather together the entire experience this question, but in your experience is that message, of all the police forces on this issue. “Just don’t do it” loud and clear, or is it more about knowing what could go wrong and therefore trying to Q629 Damian Hinds: Even just anecdotally—do mitigate the risks? schools routinely, or parents or children ever actually Peter Davies: Our experience has taught us that if we come to the police to say this has happened? start lecturing kids about what they should not do, Peter Davies: Children come to the police in a tiny they are more likely to do it. What seems to work proportion of cases, normally when it has gone better—this is our professional view—is to make them seriously wrong and turned into bullying or some fully aware of the risks they are taking, and to make other form of harassment, or if they realise that it has them feel empowered to manage the risks they are got out of control; but that is a tiny minority of the taking and know what to do if it goes wrong. That actual activity. To give you some measure, CEOP may not be everybody’s view of how to approach it, receives from the internet industry, I would think, but that is the experience of my very skilled and upwards of 300 referrals per month, which are experienced specialist staff in that area. I probably indecent images of children, apparently self-taken, think they are right, and I support them in making showing various different levels of risk. That, again, that judgment. is a small proportion of what is going on, but it is an If you look at the products that we put out around indicator of the volume that even comes across our sexting, which we published in February last year, you networks. will see that they are very hard-hitting. If I saw them, As you will have seen—I think you may have been at I would say, “I am not going to do that,” frankly, and the launch of the research on Monday—it is a highly that is always an option for people. If they are going prevalent activity and it is becoming alarmingly to do it, it is important to ensure that they do not feel normal practice for teenagers. We are very adamant they are beyond the pale or they cannot report it that it is hugely risky and that kids do not necessarily because they have done something terribly wrong. It know what they are getting into. As you know, we try is a difficult area. very hard to alert kids to the risk, and I wish that more Damian Hinds: Thank you. people would see the stuff we put out, because it is very powerful. Q632 Alex Cunningham: Damian covered the education angles on this, and you yourself have said Q630 Damian Hinds: We are the Education that the age of the young people is getting younger Committee, covering children’s services and and younger. We all know that younger and younger education. If there was a message that you, from your children are becoming far more competent—probably experience, would want to give to the school system more competent than I will ever be—on the internet or the wider children’s services sector about how and things of that nature. I just wonder where the parents, schools and others can help to counter this, education programmes should now be. I know we what would it be? need to warn older teenagers and everything else of Peter Davies: I would say firstly, prevent. The best all these risks, but where should we be starting the way of preventing that I know—I make no apology education programme? Is it seven-year-olds and eight- for saying this—is to become an ambassador or year-olds? Where should we be? volunteer for CEOP, to take our education products Peter Davies: Well, I think the moment a child and take them into your schools, because those becomes the subject of the education system, that is materials are as good as they get. The next thing is to when you should start. I sat with some friends recently protect, particularly in terms of school policy around in a café, and their three-year-old son was doodling mobile phones and dealing with children’s behaviour on an iPad. If you look at it, it is never too soon to in and around the school. Be aware that, just as a child start. We used to extend our education packages down may present as a criminal first but actually be a victim to children aged 5, and we are realising that we may in policing terms, a child may present as disruptive or have to pitch them at ages below that. This is no as a sexting-type offender in a school environment but longer something that kids do when they are at home may have far more complex problems. Look for the in the sitting room under the natural surveillance of risk factors, ask the right questions and be prepared to their family; it is in their pocket and it is with them spend a bit of time working out whether this person all the time. It is absolutely prevalent, and the future is just somebody who has broken the rules or whether is that it will be an integral part of their lives, just as they actually need some greater level of safeguarding the telephone is to me. and help. It is never too early—that is my view. The issue is finding the right way to pitch the messages, so that Q631 Damian Hinds: We had a bit of a conversation they start early realising the risks. In my view, it is on this at the launch of that report on Monday about actually quite similar to learning to cross the road. I how schools should communicate about sexting. am a green cross code vintage person—[Interruption.] There is a view that sexting is a potentially legitimate I see I have got one or two friends here. We did not part of children’s lives, but that you need to control it say that kids should not cross the road. We accepted and be aware of the danger, so that you can mitigate that they had to cross the road because that was part the risk. There is another view—candidly, I will tell of their lives, and we tried to teach them how to do it cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies safely. The moment they started crossing the road was know whether they are there or not. Given that online the moment they needed to be safe. I think kids go activity is such an integral part of young people’s online at ages before they even present to the lives, the level of fear that that can create is immense. education system, so I think it should start the moment One of the most rewarding things that some of our they come through the doors. staff did last year with some of these kinds of victims was tell them that the person was no longer there and Q633 Ian Mearns: I am a great friend of Policeman was not going to reach them again. That tells me that Badger. the harm is just the same, although in many ways the In your area of expertise and specifically online abuse level of fear and the psychological pressure is greater. and exploitation, do you believe that the current The ability to multiply offending is huge. It needs to thresholds for intervention in children’s social care are be seen as part of our victims’ lives, and we need to appropriate for the field of work that you deal with arrange ourselves around that, so that it can be dealt and concentrate on? with effectively. Peter Davies: I think that they are appropriately worded and are workable. They are obviously subject Q635 Ian Mearns: From your response, am I right to local interpretation. One essential thing, as I think in thinking that the response itself is patchy depending we put in our written submission, is for everybody in on where it is? a local area to sing off the same hymn sheet and apply Peter Davies: I think that is exactly right. the same kind of thresholds. One of our biggest issues is the extent to which some Q636 Ian Mearns: In Tower Hamlets, we heard that people somehow see online abuse as being very 70% of referrals to children’s social care came from different or not fitting into the same system. I am not the police themselves. Do the police always find that aware of a huge number of online abuse cases going action is taken in response to their referrals, or do you through that threshold and formal process, and for find that there are particular circumstances in which obvious reasons, they tend to be more about locally children’s social care bodies turn referrals away? reported physical abuse that comes through some of Peter Davies: I think the picture is mixed, and I make the local agencies. The fact is that online abuse is just no apology for saying that because we are talking as harmful, and in many cases more harmful, than about locally devolved services that operate with offline abuse. It is an integral part of people’s lives, different dynamics. I have worked in places where it just as the internet is. was felt that cases were not being attended to by social One difficulty faced by the police services and, I have services and also in places where the co-operation is no doubt, the caring services and others, is that there really good. The critical thing is to have the same is a massive gap between the prevalence of that kind understanding of what the risk is and enough of harm and the understanding, support, training and communication to know what each agency can and equipment, and the ability of those services to deal should be doing. One of the best vehicles for that is a with it effectively. multi-agency safeguarding hub, where the referral, no At CEOP, we have to focus on the highest risk, highest matter from where it comes, goes through a shared harm areas. That means that a lot of things that could process based on a shared set of information and a be harmful have to be passed on to local forces, and shared risk assessment process. That works; that the response is mixed, depending on their perception seems to be effective, and it addresses some of the of how risky that information is. Some of it is risks about cases almost ping-ponging—I probably exceptionally strong, or course, but it is nevertheless shouldn’t use that term—between different agencies, mixed. none of which necessarily feels that it is their job to We need to look at the world through the eyes of the step up. It is very easy for these relationships to go people we are trying to protect, not our own, and if wrong when people are under huge pressure, you speak to the average teenager, online and offline particularly in terms of resources. What works is is now an increasingly false distinction. Online abuse people working together effectively, with a shared set can be just as harmful as offline abuse in every of information and a shared understanding. single sense. Q637 Chair: Do we know who is failing? Q634 Ian Mearns: For me, the crucial word is Peter Davies: I don’t think we know place by place “abuse” and it doesn’t matter how it manifests itself. who is failing. It is easier to point to what works, and The crucial word is “abuse” and it should be treated that is what I have described. absolutely seriously. Peter Davies: I entirely agree, and if you look at the Q638 Chair: So we don’t know who is failing. The harm that some of the victims have come to entirely referrals are being made; they are being turned away through online abuse, it is just the same, if not in inappropriately; and we don’t know who they are. many ways worse. Think about it this way. There is Peter Davies: I think people are having to make one case that is yet to come to trial, so I must be subjective judgments every day about what to do with careful what I say about it, but if a child has been referrals. This is a very imprecise science. I cannot sit abused through the internet or a social networking site here and tell you, either on behalf of CEOP or ACPO, by someone whom he or she does not know and has that I know those places where this is working really never seen, that person is nearly always with them in well. Our job is to identify good practice, and support the room, whenever they have a laptop or a smart and encourage it. MASHs—multi-agency phone with them. It is physical abuse because they safeguarding hubs—are being fed out as good practice cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Peter Davies nationally. Mistakes will be made, because we are in but it is not as if there is no risk with the other a high-risk business. There is not a choice between approach. I refer to the thematic assessment that we risk and no risk. published last year, which clearly identified that, despite guidance being published many years ago on Q639 Chair: I am just trying to identify whether we how to tackle the phenomenon of child sexual know where the problems are. It would seem pretty exploitation and despite structures and inspectorates extraordinary if we have these referrals that are not being in place, it was not happening. What that says being handled properly, and the agencies know that, to me is that my mind is open to a different approach but somehow we do not know where these people are. that is less command and control, but empowers local Therefore, if we cannot identify them, we might be people to do the right thing, and supports them in spreading out best practice, but we are not identifying doing it. those who are failing. Peter Davies: To be fair, perhaps I am the wrong Q642 Ian Mearns: I am paraphrasing, but it seems person to ask, because I am not an inspectorate. Her that as with evil, all it takes for evil, or bad practice, or Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Ofsted are a poor response to prevail is for good men do nothing. probably the organisations to which you would be Peter Davies: Absolutely. better directing that question, to get a better answer than I can provide. Q643 Ian Mearns: I am reassured that referrals are being made where you feel that the response is Q640 Chair: Perhaps you feared I was leading you inadequate. It may be better, from the perspective of to name names, and I am often tempted to do that a national service, that those referrals have been made, here, because people so rarely do. However, I was not that it is done in confidence and that people do not asking you to name names; I was just trying to find know where the referrals have come from. However, out whether you are confident that the inspectorates in such an important and serious area of work, it and others know where the problems are, so that they appears that if the job is not being done on the ground, can be addressed. we are spending an awful lot of money on doing Peter Davies: Ah, okay. I am confident that they are nothing. That seems to me a matter of grave concern. rearranging how they work to make it more likely that With your ACPO hat on, what are the benefits of co- they will spot where the risks are. For example, I locating police units with children’s social care? We know that HMIC and Ofsted have started doing no- have seen where this has happened out in the field. notice, snap inspections. I cannot speak for them in What are the benefits from your perspective? terms of how well it is going. It is not my job to Peter Davies: I absolutely support that model of doing inspect police forces or children’s services; it is my it, and I refer to one model: the multi-agency job, on behalf of ACPO, to identify the right policy safeguarding hub. In brief, the benefits obviously and good practice, make sure that it is shared and include better access to data, because people can have promote the best practice, in the hope that police their own computer systems in the same room. forces and partners will end up doing the best job Comparing data is hugely important, as is a shared, they can. understood way of assessing risk and a shared Chair: We will move on to more productive avenues. approach to the task. There is a host of cultural benefits with agencies understanding each other better. Q641 Ian Mearns: I am not here to give evidence— Child protection is a collective, partnership-based, I am here to ask questions—but if I can make an multi-agency endeavour. It cannot be done as a single observation, the hope that best practice will somehow agency. Anything that puts those practitioners in the morph itself out there could be a bit forlorn in some same room and shares the best of what they have got places. If, in your role, you are clearly identifying and gets them to work better together I places where the response is not adequate or falls wholeheartedly support. short of what we would hope, surely there is an argument that a referral should be made to an Q644 Ian Mearns: I have a number of other inspectorate to look at that matter. questions, but I am conscious of the time. Would it be Peter Davies: And referrals are made, not necessarily okay if we sent you those questions and you could by ACPO or CEOP, but there is a system for these respond? referrals being made. If I can just—I know you have Peter Davies: You would be very welcome. I other people to see. apologise if I have been too long-winded and not Chair: We’ve got no time. helped to manage the time. Peter Davies: Okay. May I make one observation? Ian Mearns: No, no, not at all. One critical thing that the Munro review identified is Chair: It is complex stuff. that thinking somehow local services will get better Craig Whittaker: Shall we add those final questions and better if there is more compliance checking and from me into the same list? Would that help? more rules has not worked. I think that system has run Chair: Yes, excellent; we will do that. Peter, thank into the ground. What Munro clearly identifies is that, you very much for giving evidence to us this morning. like it or not, whatever you do in terms of inspections We will be in contact with you on the lines we and setting rules and policies, you have to trust local suggested. practitioners to do the right thing and make effective Peter Davies: Thank you very much indeed. local judgments. That feels uncomfortable and risky, cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07
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Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Dr Shade Alu, Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and Dame Moira Gibb CBE, Chair, Social Work Reform Board, gave evidence.
Q645 Chair: Good morning to our next witnesses where you are trying to get to. Our work is designed to and thank you both for joining us. I feared we were help local authorities feel that that is not beyond them, going to overrun on the last session even longer than that they can do it, that there is a vision to get to and we did, but we brought ourselves nearly back on track. that they should not just take the simple answer of We are a year on from the Munro review and there is sticking with what they know, because it does not still no chief social worker in post and a long-awaited produce the results that we want to see. revised guidance on working together still has not Eileen Munro identified the conundrum in the sense been published. Has the momentum behind that that it is very hard to ask people to give up the levers review been lost? What needs to happen to maximise that they currently have and what they think is their the opportunities presented by Munro? Who would control of the system and to depend on professional like to pick up that? judgment if they do not actually trust the front-line Dame Moira Gibb: I am not sure that I can answer workers’ professional judgment. We are in that all of those questions for the Committee. My role is slightly vicious circle of trying to make steady chairing the Social Work Reform Board, which is progress, but I do not think that there is an alternative, seeking to implement the recommendations of the task frankly. I think that this is what we have to do. There force. We see the work that we are doing as the is no other answer to finding capable social workers underpinning of Munro. Her model of moving away at the front line apart from training them better, from a rules-based system to a professional judgment ensuring that we pick the right people to be trained, system requires competent and capable social workers supporting them and encouraging them to continue at the front line. Our work has been designed to do their continuous professional development in their that over time, but it is taking a long time. It would careers. That is what our work has been designed to in any circumstances, but these are not the best of do. circumstances. Chair: Thank you. That was a long answer. I am conscious that I appeared before your Dame Moira Gibb: Can I go now? predecessor Committee almost to the day three years ago, when I was chairing the task force. In its Q646 Chair: I am not that much clearer as to conclusions it recommended to the Government a whether, from where you sit, the momentum has been strategic approach, with not too many initiatives. I lost, or is it where you would expect it to be? think the present Government are to be greatly Obviously, we would always like to be doing more, commended for continuing our work and recognising more quickly, and to a higher quality, but what do you its underpinning nature. There is always the risk of think, Dr Alu? being pulled away from that fundamental nature of the Dr Shade Alu: My view is that the health service, as changes that we are trying to put in place. you know, is undergoing huge reform. At the same Our work, of course, has not been helped by the time, the Munro report came out, which was much financial circumstances in which local authorities and more focused on social work, although obviously it the Government find themselves. The question of how affects health services. The picture will be mixed in to promote best practice and drive improvements out terms of the momentum. It has been embraced and the there remains a conundrum for us. We have a reform recommendations are being worked through. From a board made up of 32 different organisations that come health perspective, “Working Together to Safeguard to the table willingly and have contributed, but we are Children” not having been released for consultation is dependent on them taking back our work into their one of the factors that has allowed the momentum to organisations and spreading it out through those pre- slow down somewhat, because “Working Together to existing mechanisms. Safeguard Children” for us in health is a seminal There is not any capacity or capability in our work, document. I know that it is written by the Department as it were, or in the system as a whole to make those for Education, but many of the levers that we have changes happen from the centre. People have to be from a health perspective are in “Working Together to willing. Employers have to engage with our Safeguard Children”, and what we have heard from employers’ standard, which is designed to ensure that our membership, and from health more generally, is social workers have the necessary support to do their that until we know what is in that document, it is very work well. However, if employers choose not to— difficult to move forward. I think that the delay has although I hope that Ofsted would look unfavourably contributed to a loss of momentum in health, although on them in that process—my board and I have no we are obviously working together with partners, and sanction to bring. So, it is slow and steady work. I am aware that LSCBs are continuing to drive With regard to Eileen Munro’s report and her one- through the reforms from Munro. year-on assessment, I think that she would agree that there is a very mixed picture in that some places are Q647 Chair: Moira, the College of Social Work is driving ahead with reform and others are struggling an establishment that has not been without difficulty. with their current work load and cannot quite see the Can you update us on where it is at? space to change. It is very difficult to reduce your Dame Moira Gibb: They are hopeful that there will expenditure on these services, which every local be very good progress to report, but nevertheless even authority has to do, and to try and transform it at the if they resolve the difficulties with BASW that have same time, which requires, in a sense, a clear vision of been at the heart of the delay, there is still the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE challenge of encouraging social workers to join the situation tools and giving social workers the tools to college and ensuring that it has a membership that do a good job. They are stretched and stressed, but means that it has capability. I could not think of a nevertheless there is lots of good work going on. more difficult time—at a time when social workers Ofsted itself produced a report at the end of last year are going to have to pay more to be registered—to say that talked about how there is clear evidence that if to them that they must also join the college, because employers provide that support and regular that is part of being in a profession. In a sense, the professional supervision for social workers, it new regulator of social workers will, as it were, assert translates into better outcomes for children. It is minimum standards, and the college will be the one making sure that employers understand that it is not that says, “This is how we take you beyond those just something that social workers, like a trade union, minimum standards.” It is incredibly difficult. are campaigning for, but actually makes a difference Everywhere I go, I tell social workers that employers to practice. That is the message that we need to keep have to do all these things and higher education has getting out to employers. There is not a quick fix, to do all these things, but you—social workers—have frankly. There is not one single answer. You have to to join, participate, think like a professional and be do this in a systematic and consistent way and not serious about continuing to develop your own give up today. capability. As I say, I cannot think of a worse time I would like to see more evidence that people at the financially for them to be asked to do this. We have top of organisations are interested in the actual to be optimistic and encouraging, and it may take a individual cases. My sense is that in health, the long time. strength of the professions in the health service has The medical colleges have had centuries to develop meant that the people at the top of the organisation their resources and standing. The professions are know about operations—as it were. I do not think we much more firmly entrenched in the health sector than have lost that sense of actual practice, and focus on they are in the local government sector. It is going to the quality of practice needs to increase. be a young organisation for quite some time. Again, it says to social workers, “You have responsibilities as Q649 Craig Whittaker: Okay. I understand the a professional, as well as your employer or anyone evolving bit. This place has taken 1,000 years to else having responsibilities.” I hope that that will evolve. It is still not right and is a long way from encourage them to think more carefully about their being right. I understand that, but it is about the basic continuous professional development. stuff and working together. It is the things in areas It is incredibly difficult at the moment. There is no around the country where we see it working well money for courses or the kinds of things that people where people do work. The MASH system, for see as somehow extra to the day job, when they are example, improves kids’ lives incredibly. Yet time and actually fundamental to doing the day job to the time again we hear this criticism and we see evidence standard that you have been talking about this of it on this Committee that we cannot seem to get it morning. right. If you guys around social work cannot even agree among yourselves, what hope in heck has Q648 Craig Whittaker: There is obviously a high everybody else got? In that same vein, Moira, is there profile national board reforming social work and, a role for the College of Social Work in bringing similarly, we have high-profile organisations. We together strategic child protection leads from across heard Shade talk about “Working Together”, and, different disciplines? Moira, you talked about the issues between the college and BASW and how long it will take—it is long term. Dame Moira Gibb: The sector agrees on many things Children in need do not have a long time, so how will and certainly in terms of a coherent picture, the we really start? If you guys cannot sort out among taskforce recommendations were widely welcomed, your own profession how you will work together, how including by BASW and employers. Inevitably the on earth can we have confidence that other professions devil is always in the detail and an organisation that will work with you? The end game is the children. has to question its own future will perhaps not be quite How will we nail this? What structures are you going so keen on partnership straight away. As you say, to put in place to nail it once and for all? there are excellent examples of partnership but we Dame Moira Gibb: Frankly, I do not think that it will have to avoid having too many expectations of this ever be “nailed”. In a sense, you have been discussing fledgling college. It is a college of social work rather this morning just how complex the world of childhood than a representation of social workers. It has already has become. You help children in one set of taken on a number of the tools and products that the circumstances and train people to do that well, and reform board has developed and it is creating faculties suddenly, lo and behold, there are a whole new set of that support specialisms. I am not directly involved in circumstances that you had not thought about and the college. It was one of our recommendations but it those people have not been trained around. I think that is an independent college. It is important not to we will constantly be running after the service that we overburden it from the earliest stage, but I would want would like to have in place. it to be allowed a voice for social work and that I want to stress that I think we are talking about partnership working. If it does not work in partnership improvements, not a system that is incapable. We are then it is not going to succeed. talking about lots of social workers who do meet the standards that we would want. There are lots of Q650 Craig Whittaker: Okay. The National employers who are actually providing the support and Safeguarding Delivery Unit, of course, was abolished. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE
Is there a bigger role for the national college to play keep going. There are others, such as the Coram legal in taking up that gap? centre, that give legal advice to professionals, which Dame Moira Gibb: Again, it would have to decide I think is really helpful, but we mustn’t take away itself whether it could do that. I think you would want from the local because professionals really should go to look at a partnership body. I was involved with the back through their local routes for the advice they safeguarding unit and a very wide range of need to do their work. organisations and professions was represented there and that was valuable. Q655 Craig Whittaker: Moira, would your advice be any different? Q651 Craig Whittaker: So was it a mistake Dame Moira Gibb: What we should do is work on disbanding it? what you were talking about earlier and children’s Dame Moira Gibb: Partnership working should be connectivity. It is about being online and being sure supported and encouraged. It had only just got that they have access to information online in the started— ways that they do it. If you use a single point of contact, it is always the next stage that is the most Q652 Craig Whittaker: So yes or no? A mistake or important: what you do with that and how you connect not? Or are you loth to say? single points of contact to service delivery. So it often Dame Moira Gibb: It was too hard to say that it was feels like an answer when, actually, it is just another the right answer, I have to say. I think it is important layer of complexity in a complex system. that we remain focused on partnership working around safeguarding but Eileen Munro’s review was taking Q656 Craig Whittaker: Dr Alu, we have heard place. But leadership around these issues is many times about sharing information, data sharing important, yes. and stuff, and we have heard that the health service is by far the worst at sharing information. How do we Q653 Craig Whittaker: You may have heard Peter get over that? How do we get over medical Davies and we had a bit of a discussion around a confidentiality? The police are in a very similar boat. single national point of contact, not just for children They all blame health, but, the truth be known, they but for professionals too. Is that a good idea? Where are all as bad as each other. The MASH system seems would a point of contact best be based and who should to be a halfway house, but it just seems madness in administer it? some ways that we can’t get over this silo thinking Dr Shade Alu: We should acknowledge that there are around data. How do we fix it? points of contact already so the NSPCC one that we Dr Shade Alu: From our point of view, there is heard about is available for children and professionals. always tension, as you say, between confidentiality There is the Coram children’s legal centre which is and the need to share information. I think our message also a point of contact for professionals. I think I is very clear to practitioners: the needs of a child are would agree with the previous witness who referred paramount and have to come first. One of the issues to the fact that in trying to bring together a single around information sharing, on which I can give a few point of contact we are in danger almost of creating examples, is that some practitioners who do not work an organisation that would be quite unwieldy. What in this field do not necessarily understand their we need to do is to define what we want from that responsibilities. Their responsibilities are clear, but it point of contact. Do we want it for children? Do we want it for professionals? is the implementation of those responsibilities. So it goes back to training and awareness; it goes back, I In terms of the professionals there are areas where guess, to colleges, as well. The various medical they can already pick up information and where they can go for advice. What we need to do is to strengthen colleges need to talk to their membership and give the advice that professionals can get as opposed to guidance on what needs to be shared. building up a point of contact when I am not sure what it is supposed to deliver from a professional point of Q657 Chair: Who is not doing it? You said that view. From the children’s point of view, picking up groups are not doing it. We have had tragedy after on what was said in terms of marketing, we need to tragedy, and, time after time, we are told that there keep it as simple as possible and maybe strengthen isn’t a level of training, awareness and understanding the NSPCC that we already have, as opposed to trying in the medical professions, as well as others, and you to build something else nationally. are telling us exactly what we have heard. Dr Shade Alu: What I would suggest is that training Q654 Craig Whittaker: So your advice, then, would is certainly a lot better. In terms of who is not doing be to extend ChildLine services as a single point of it, I think you would find pockets of excellence across contact for children but that the advice that the medical professions and pockets where practice is professionals get through the current local contacts, not as good as we would want it to be. whether it is the local safeguarding children board or whomever, is sufficient but needs to be strengthened? Q658 Chair: Name those pockets. Would that be your recommendation? Dr Shade Alu: With great difficulty, because I guess Dr Shade Alu: I would recommend strengthening the in any one discipline we would have pockets of good local, and I would say keep and strengthen the practice and pockets of practice that is not as good as NSPCC for children. There is a branch of the NSPCC we would want it to be. I think it is difficult to finger that gives professional advice, and I think that should one particular discipline. Practice is quite variable cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE across disciplines, and part of our role is to ensure Q662 Craig Whittaker: Can I just ask whether there that it is more uniform across all disciplines. is there a case then for creating a positive duty to share information under the Data Protection Act? If Q659 Chair: I don’t want to be impatient or rude to so, how would it work and would it improve the you, but we are told again and again that things are current situation? better than they were but that it is all a bit patchy. Dr Shade Alu: It is one of those things where, when Meanwhile, we feel like we are sleepwalking until the you hear it like this, it sounds really attractive and next tragedy comes along. It doesn’t feel as if we are one would almost jump out saying, “Yes.” I think, as quite getting the honesty that we need—I don’t mean always, however, that when these things happen we from you, but generally—to address this and get need to be mindful of unintended consequences and change. we also need to be mindful of the ethical dilemmas Dr Shade Alu: Anecdote is always difficult. In terms that come around sometimes with information of evidence around training and awareness in health, sharing. What I would say today is that it needs some CQC did a straw poll a few years ago that showed thinking. I am sure that we would be happy as a where training was at and it was well below the college to go away and think about it and put benchmark. My understanding is that it is now above something in writing to you. where it was. It is certainly not where we want it to Chair: We would be very grateful. be, but it is moving in the right direction. It is a work Dame Moira Gibb: We can overstate the importance in progress. I can understand your impatience; I am of sharing information. Certainly our work has been as impatient as you are. We are talking about children very much focused on what people do with and abuse. The poor children who are subject to it do information. It is important that people can analyse not have another life and therefore it is important that and understand what it means, and not simply have it we get there very quickly. We are working on it and recorded. We have had a focus on ensuring that it is moving in the right direction. everything is recorded, but, as I say, it needs to be understood and then interpreted and acted upon if a Q660 Alex Cunningham: My wife was a school child is in some way at risk. I think that we can get nurse and she told me that when it came to sharing carried away with clarifying who can share what and information, her professional registration was in with whom. Often people have enough information, jeopardy in some circumstances. Are the royal even without one missing bit, to take action, and they colleges standing in the way by placing restrictions on have not done that, because they are not doing that people through the advice they give them or the rules analysis and thoughtful reflection on what is in front that they lay down related to the person’s registration, of them. so that they cannot share it without that risk that my wife used to fear? Q663 Ian Mearns: I must admit that I am becoming Dr Shade Alu: My response to that would again be a bit frustrated as we go through this, Mr Chairman, what I have said previously: it is interpretation. The because in the previous session we were talking about duty to share information when there is child abuse sharing good practice and it is a bit like trickle-down economics, because it does not always work, and where children are involved is very clear. The particularly if you are in the north-east of England. We colleges are clear that they must—I use the word do not feel very trickled on at the moment. It seems to “must”—share information. However, interpretation me that sharing good practice is all very well, as long locally can be tricky. We get this time and time again as the recipients realise that they need to be shared and we hear it from a range of members. with. Sometimes that is the problem. Somebody needs Organisations might be saying, “No, you can’t do to give them the metaphorical shake sometimes in that”, but actually you can. order to make them aware that they need to be shared with. Then they might begin the learning process, Q661 Alex Cunningham: So what is being done to which is so important. We need to reach the parts that overcome this? other information does not reach, as it were. Sorry, Dr Shade Alu: It sounds like a broken record, but it that is my two minutes of frustration vented. is back to training, it is back to interpretation and it is Dame Moira, what progress has the Social Work back to awareness. It is not just training of the front Reform Board made in implementing its five priority line. We are not talking about the training of reforms? management and managers. It has to come from the Dame Moira Gibb: What we were doing was top of the organisation. If the people who are in charge overseeing the implementation; we don’t do it of data protection, who are not medical at all, are ourselves. I think we have made some progress, but saying, “Oh no, you cannot share information”, they inevitably it has been slower than I and most of my use that as a blanket statement, rather than saying, colleagues would have wanted. In September, the “This relates to child protection. This is a child who assessed year in employment will be introduced, is at risk of harm. It is a slightly different set of rules which, when I came in 2009, was a considerable here.” We need to get to the information officers. I concern for this Committee. That will mean that social think that the front-line staff are aware, but they workers will have a more consistent and more usually want to collate with the organisations, and that supported, but more judged first year in practice. The is sometimes where we get into the issue of, “No, we universities are introducing stricter criteria about who cannot share.” We need to be getting to information is selected to join a social work programme and we officers across organisations. have developed support for the partnerships that we cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE think are at the heart of this. When I first started the Q666 Ian Mearns: Obviously, you are dealing with work, what we found was that higher education was people in individual social services departments at a blaming employers, and employers were blaming strategic level. If you are, from personal experience, higher education—that we weren’t delivering social coming across people who you feel are in danger of workers of the calibre they needed. But, actually, failing the people who they are meant to be serving, unless they join up—because they are both very surely you have a responsibility to do something important contributors to that training of the next about that. generation—then it doesn’t work and we just keep on Dame Moira Gibb: Yes, absolutely; but as I say, my blaming each other. first point of contact would be within the department I think we have made steady progress, but it is a or the local authority. I should say that the college is, mixed picture—I wouldn’t disagree with you. I visited again, intended to help, because social workers will Gateshead children and adult services and they wanted know about it if there is something going wrong. Where do they go if they have not been heard in their to be at the forefront of sharing good practice, but that own authority? The college will be a help. And of is not the case everywhere. In a model that is not top- course the chief social worker will have an important down, but sector self-improvement, it is inevitable that role. I know that you are impatient, Chair, for the we will have a bigger range of performance. On the appointment, but I am encouraged that the two other hand, however, we might drive up the Departments have stuck so closely together to have a performance at the top end, because people will not be chief social worker across social work in general. I restricted to that particular model of being told what to am hopeful that they will make an appointment and do and doing it; they will actually be thinking about that that appointment will make a difference to the what is necessary and developing new approaches. So system. it is all lumped together in mediocrity, or a longer tail of perhaps underperformance. I certainly think that the Q667 Damian Hinds: Doesn’t this at heart come to model we are pursuing at the moment—encouraging judgments? You are saying that you would not have more leadership and concern locally to develop that the evidence to do it, but, repeatedly, a theme that has practice—is again underpinned by individual social come up in this inquiry is people saying, “You know workers wanting to be more professional and to share problems when you see them,” and “Professionals practice. They ought to be able to influence the should exercise judgment,” but that everything has organisations that they work in, and have more become so systematised that sometimes these things confidence. get missed. No one is asking you to make an instant, snap judgment on whether someone is out of line or Q664 Ian Mearns: So you don’t implement, you not, but by saying, “I should refer this to Ofsted,” influence. Is that what you are saying? that then creates the opportunity for there to be a full Dame Moira Gibb: We provide the tools that make investigation. Shouldn’t not just you but people it possible for employers, for example. We have an throughout the system be able to exercise their employers standard that, if employers follow it, will judgment and say, “Yes, we need to thoroughly mean that they are very good employers and, as I said, investigate this. It feels like something might be will produce better outcomes for children. But if they wrong, even if I don’t have the perfectly formed ignore it completely, I can’t give them low marks on evidence. Let’s get them to find out.”? some scale or other—they are independent. As I say, Dame Moira Gibb: Absolutely. In my role, I am going I hope that Ofsted and other inspectorates would look to Gloucester tomorrow to talk to their social work at what notice employers were taking and what conference, but even in the smaller meetings that I have in the breaks or whatever, I will not get evidence attitude they had to the professional development of of their practice, so in this role I am not getting that their staff in their inspection, particularly given the kind of information. Lots of people on the ground will evidence of the impact it has on children. have that kind of information and the question is where they go if they— Q665 Ian Mearns: In your role—as with the previous person who gave evidence, Peter—if you Q668 Damian Hinds: But they might say something come across people who quite clearly aren’t taking on to you in the coffee break. What would you do with board what they really should be doing, would you that information then? give Ofsted a call and say, “Go and have a look at Dame Moira Gibb: I would ask them who they had them please.”? talked to about it, and if they had not yet taken it up Dame Moira Gibb: No, I wouldn’t. The body I run is with their manager, I would offer my e-mail and say, a partnership. Frankly, I wouldn’t have the evidence; “If you don’t get anywhere, do get back in touch with I would have anecdote. If I saw something that I me.” That is the first principle of complaint handling: thought was absolutely failing children, my first point have you taken it through the normal route? of contact would be the director of children’s services or the chief executive rather than Ofsted, because I Q669 Ian Mearns: Moira, we have had a previous think that people should have the right to put it right contributor who has suggested that the social work themselves. This is a part-time role for me. I am not profession needs a bit of oomph. Are you happy to out there all the time. I don’t have the evidence to call provide some oomph for the profession? people to account, I’m afraid. I was an inspector in an Dame Moira Gibb: Perhaps not oomph, but early life, but I have no desire to be one now. confidence and capability. I think that the existence of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE the taskforce and the reform board has, in the absence Q673 Ian Mearns: I am very aware that you have of other kinds of formal leadership of the profession, stressed the fact that you are not an inspectorate and helped people to feel that they were not simply being that you can only do what you can do, but we have criticised but that the difficult role they carry out was heard concerns about the use of non-social work staff being recognised and supported. I would still not call in child protection teams. Have you seen anything like it oomph, but that confidence that is at the heart of the that? Is it widespread, and is it at all inappropriate? current problem needs to be addressed. Dame Moira Gibb: We have had a period when, to use your words, social work did not have much Q670 Ian Mearns: The British Association of Social oomph and people invented lots of other kinds of Workers has told us that the numbers of front-line professionals to support, work around or engage in social work staff are being cut. In your work, have some of this work. It often occurred to me: why didn’t they use social workers with a specific skill around you seen any evidence of this? that and help them? Of course, while people struggled Dame Moira Gibb: There is some evidence of to recruit social workers, they often invented other departments trying to cope with their more limited roles around it. It is a very difficult job and putting resources and making decisions about— people who are less well trained seems to me to be Ian Mearns: You have been to Gateshead, so I would an error. guess you probably saw that there. Dame Moira Gibb: It is a very tricky judgment for Q674 Chair: How widespread is it? individual departments. Dame Moira Gibb: I do not have that oversight of how widespread it is. There are some perfectly Q671 Ian Mearns: In that case, is it of interest to appropriate uses of other paraprofessionals, as it were, you in terms of trying to evaluate what the scale of in the work, so long as it is clear that you are doing the reductions across the board is? that and that you need to provide more support for Dame Moira Gibb: We do not have the capacity in those people if they have not had the professional the small joint unit that I have got working for me to training. do that, but again what I would want to encourage employers to recognise is that even if that is the Q675 Ian Mearns: Do you have a clear view in your reality—we don’t have the money and they have to own mind about what is appropriate in terms of use cut the cake in some way—is that what they must of social work staff and non-social work staff within not do is simply to burden the front-line workers with child protection teams? having to carry more cases. Again, the employer Dame Moira Gibb: Again, one of the challenges that standards help them to do that and ensure that they the social work taskforce had was to describe what say, “Well, actually, that means that we are going to only social workers could do. We resisted that, I have have to change our criteria,” not simply, “You will to say, because of the wide range of roles in social have to carry more of the burden,” and that they have work. We are only talking about children’s services, a conversation with their staff about what is a but obviously there is a wide range. It means, and reasonable way of handling the work load in these there is a concern out there, that people are replacing circumstances. social workers with untrained people more than they should. Q672 Ian Mearns: That is a concern, because I think Q676 Ian Mearns: Is it easier to ask in that case there has always been this tension between needs-led whether you have a clear view of those things that and resource-led levels of service. If you are cutting should not be done by non-social work staff in child the number of front-line social workers and increasing protection teams? case loads, that is only going to go one way in terms Dame Moira Gibb: Social workers struggle to do as of thresholds for intervention, isn’t it? well as they might. The difficult work of engaging Dame Moira Gibb: Yes. We have been in the business with families who have problems is not an easy task. of rationing in children’s social care for a very long Unless someone is very well trained in another time and I do not see a time, given the complexity in discipline, it would seem to me inappropriate to use childhood that we were talking about, when that will them in that front line of practice. not be the case. Some authorities are definitely under much more pressure than others. I have always said Q677 Ian Mearns: In your role in terms of that the work that we have been doing is to try to promoting the profession, surely you must have a make a more rational response to this, as opposed to clear idea of particular things that really should not the irrational one that was happening before, when be done by non-trained social work staff. Could you newly qualified social workers were at the front line elaborate on that in terms of written evidence to us? of the hardest work, being burnt out and clearing off. Dame Moira Gibb: As I say, I think that first-line Doctors spend 25 years in practice, I understand, after engagement with children and their families in their training; for social workers it is seven years. We difficulties is a task that social workers should do. As I want to make it a doable job, so that you retain that say, we resisted the temptation to go down and restrict experience and skill at the front line of practice and certain things, as there are in other professions, that make more of a difference. What employers should only social workers could do; but it seems to me that not do is take short-term decisions that in the long it is a false economy of employers to try to get around term make their situation more difficult. it by using other, presumably cheaper, members of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE staff, because you are running greater risks. You need Dame Moira Gibb: Sadly. Again, on success in the to put more support in to help them. longer term, it would seem to me that they would have much more of a voice. I think there is a position where Q678 Chair: Is there concern in the profession that the professions can be over-dominant, but we are this is happening? certainly nowhere near that in social work, so I would Dame Moira Gibb: On the announcement of the local like to see a rebalancing. I would feel pleased if, in government settlement, there was considerable 10 years’ time, that were the case. concern that a number of employers were doing that. I have to say that there was more of it on the adult Q684 Charlotte Leslie: I have a couple of other side and in mental health that I heard of—it is issues that have arisen through our witnesses so far. anecdotal; nothing more sophisticated than that—than One is the management—the training for first-line in children’s services, but others may be better able to managers for social workers in terms of supporting advise you on that, Chair. and challenging front-line staff. Someone suggested they are still slightly stuck in a culture of performance Q679 Charlotte Leslie: I would like to ask briefly, if and target meeting. Is that something you recognise I may, about the training of social workers. I am sorry and is that something that the board is working on? I was so late and interrupted. One of our witnesses Dame Moira Gibb: I absolutely recognise that. The commented that knowledge, particularly about child social workers we talked to told us that the most development, has been slightly neglected in social important person in their life was their first-line work training in favour of skills. How is the Social manager. Actually, the first first-line manager you get Work Reform Board working to improve that? probably decides whether you stay in the profession Dame Moira Gibb: One of the recommendations that or are one of these people who leave as quickly as we made was that the Government should stick with they possibly can from front-line practice. There was the social work degree, but that there should be a a specific recommendation from the taskforce about review of the curriculum to ensure that it met the ensuring that they have the necessary support and needs of nowadays practice, as it were. We found that development. That is inextricably linked with the there were some excellent courses, and others that Munro recommendations in children’s services. were not so good. What employers were hoping for Where there is a focus on time scales and targets, there was consistency. So that new curriculum will come is less room for that professional supervision. into effect in 2013. Again, it is not a rigid “every We have also got, among those first-line managers, student social worker will be taught this on this day”. people who were brought up on this system and only There is still quite a lot of flexibility for the higher know the model that we operate now. People as old education institutions to work locally with their as me remember professional supervision, but there partner employers. are fewer of those around, so there is a real training need, and we have worked hard on that, but I have to Q680 Chair: Prior to the introduction of that, has say it has not had the same priority as some of the there been a reduction of the component within other work that we have had. training around child development and knowledge as opposed to skills as such? Q685 Charlotte Leslie: In many ways, it is how you Dame Moira Gibb: In some places; not everywhere. ingrain Damian’s point about judgment into the I still think social workers need to develop skills in system. I have just another issue, and then I will come communication and interaction, so it is not simply to you, Dr Shade Alu. One more issue that was raised knowledge in itself. is that some NGOs and victims report that there is not always specialist knowledge about certain forms of Q681 Chair: Overall, there has not been a degrading abuse, specifically of child trafficking and forced and an imbalance. marriage. Should there be more of a curriculum focus Dame Moira Gibb: There has been less focus than is on these specialist areas of abuse? necessary on child development. Dame Moira Gibb: We have had lots and lots of lobbying about specific areas that should be included. Q682 Charlotte Leslie: Do you think that in future What is most important is to develop social workers the royal college would have a role in setting the who understand how to use research and to have that curriculum, and should it? more analytical and thoughtful frame of mind. Again, Dame Moira Gibb: I would certainly want them to it may be in particular areas in that partnership that feel that they had a voice and that they were engaging there is a need for a specific module or course; but at with employers, with higher education and with social the heart of it, you have to be prepared to understand workers themselves and feeding into being at that what is in front of you, to use knowledge and to find table, really. And I would expect the chief social ways to experts and contacts, rather than assuming worker, too, to be laying down concerns and that you know enough. expectations to the sector as a whole. Q686 Chair: So is that yes, trafficking should be Q683 Charlotte Leslie: In medical royal colleges, included, or no, it should not? Is skill enough or do the royal colleges tend to set the curriculum and the they need to know about this before they are faced standards. Is that something to which you would like with their first case? to see the royal college of social work moving? Dame Moira Gibb: How would they begin to Chair: The college. It is not a royal college. understand what to do when faced with a case such as cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE that? There is a generic understanding of how to learn, for child protection. Do you think there might be any where to go, and who to ask. Using the internet is an merit in that? important skill. It is good to use examples of current Dr Shade Alu: The answer is yes, and the answer is issues that they understand, but we do not want those that that already exists. What I would say is that we newly qualified social workers to be expert in a need to be really mindful of it. Absolutely, I believe narrow area, because they probably will not get a job in joint training across a range of disciplines, so it in that narrow area; they will have to cover the should be the case, but it should be at an appropriate waterfront of practices that exist at present. level. The information that we get back from some of the joint training is that the levels were not Q687 Charlotte Leslie: So, again, it makes a appropriate. For example, the social worker might say, distinction between developing the social worker as a “That was at such a low level,” or the health person who is able to use judgment and knows how professional might say that it was at a low level. The to find out stuff when they need to, as opposed to police do something called a multi-agency critical going through a certain set of tick boxes, saying, “I incident exercise, which gets social workers, police, have learned about this, and I will now learn about voluntary sector and health coming together over two this.” days around child protection training. So the answer Dame Moira Gibb: Yes. to multi-agency training is, absolutely, we should do that, because it is really helpful, but we just need to Q688 Charlotte Leslie: Finally, let me come on to pitch it right so that engagement continues. GPs and GPs’ training in child protection. Dr Shade Alu, it seems that the GP training in child protection Q690 Alex Cunningham: I have a few quick is slightly ad hoc at the moment and it is not as questions about structures around safeguarding. Has widespread as it should be and there is no particular there been clear guidance now from the Department layout of rules for what should be done. Should GPs, of Health about where safeguarding will sit within the by default, be required to undertake child protection new health structures? training? If so, to what kind of level should this be, Dr Shade Alu: Quick answer: no. and who will be responsible for checking it? Perhaps it should be the Care Quality Commission. How do Q691 Alex Cunningham: Right. So something needs you think it should work? to happen quickly there. Dr Shade Alu: In terms of GP training, absolutely, Dr Shade Alu: Yes. GPs should be trained. I would say that GPs are trained. The Royal College of GPs has a toolkit on Q692 Alex Cunningham: What would the royal child protection, which is available to all members. It college recommend to ensure that the structures and is at level 1 and level 2. If I refer to the entire practice of named and designated doctors and nurses collegiate document, which is what sets out the for child protection do not get lost in this new standards for the health professionals around training, landscape? the expectation is that GPs should be trained to level Dr Shade Alu: We have been advocating to the 2. The college is committed to the fact that all GPs Department of Health that absolutely the expertise in will be trained to level 2 and aspiring to level 3. health has to remain and those rules, as you have Anecdotally, my understanding is that for quite a lot described, need to remain. What I would suggest to of GPs in their localities, the PCTs—the PCTs have the Committee is that, as I have said previously, responsibility at the moment—are saying that they “Working Together” has been a seminal document. should be level 3 trained and they are rolling that out. That probably sounds a bit strange, but it is a It is better than it was. A few years ago, GPs were not document that we have been able to take to embracing training at all. Going forward, they have commissioners, to organisations and to employers and started to embrace the training. Perhaps one of the say, “It states in here very clearly this is what the drivers is the fact that they will have to be registered designated professionals should be doing. This is what with the Care Quality Commission in the near future the named professionals should be doing.” Because it and that will be one of the requirements. I believe that is in statutory guidance, organisations have been very that has driven some of the compliance around mindful of it and have ensured that that has taken training. place. We are very concerned from what we hear In terms of who should oversee it, at the moment it is about “Working Together” coming out and there being the responsibility of the PCT whose performance list a very limited document that might not cover this, and they are on to make sure that they are trained. In the that would be a detriment for us health professionals new NHS, it would have to be the successor if that were to happen. organisations, I would suggest. Given that the national commissioning body would be the people who Q693 Alex Cunningham: So are you confident that commission GP practices, the opinion at the moment NHS professionals will continue to be involved at the is that it probably should be devolved to the national level they need to be with local safeguarding boards? offices. We await guidance from the Department of It is variable across the country already. Health on how it will all land. Dr Shade Alu: I would not be 100% confident if, for example, “Working Together” comes out and that is Q689 Charlotte Leslie: One of our witnesses, who not in it. I am particularly concerned because is a GP, suggested that there might be some merit in commissioning arrangements are changing and doing joint training between health and social work moving to CCGs, who, as you know, are mainly GPs. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE
As we have discussed in this session already, GPs are services in the NHS, as your own organisation has not necessarily trained to the same level and therefore proposed? I suppose the short answer is yes. their understanding of their commissioning Dr Shade Alu: The short answer is yes, but we know responsibilities around safeguarding might be how difficult it is. It is very difficult for organisations somewhat limited. In the financial situation in which even to identify what they have put into child we find ourselves, there might be some compromising protection. We would want mandated the absolute of the resource. I believe the positions would remain, focus of an organisation on child protection, and it has so they would be mindful of keeping the named to feed through everything that it does. A budget professionals and the designated professionals, but would be fantastic, but in reality, looking through the they might pare it down to the barest minimum, so organisation and threading child protection through it that they are able to say, “Yes, we have it,” but not is important. resource it appropriately. If there is anything that I Chair: Thank you. After that excellent period of short would want to get across to the Committee, it is and punchy questions and answers, we have time for precisely this: there are concerns that if it is not almost a couple more questions from Craig before we draw mandated, as it were, we might see a loss of the to a close. expertise in health. Q698 Craig Whittaker: The Committee has been Q694 Alex Cunningham: So there is the potential told that thresholds, for example, are becoming for a huge risk that safeguarding services are going to increasingly outdated and that services at different suffer within the new structures. levels are being provided to all families in need. Is Dr Shade Alu: I think that risk is there. Without that true? Is that what is really happening on the having seen an accountability framework from the front line? Department of Health—we have not seen it yet—and Dame Moira Gibb: Again, the picture is varied. There without knowing what is in “Working Together”, has been concern from those in health and other which are the two documents that commissioners will colleagues for many years that social services, or child be looking at in terms of putting the structures in welfare services, draw their threshold too high. Of place, that risk is there. course, the other part of Eileen Munro’s recommendations is about early help and trying to get people to rethink whether the right answer is to raise Q695 Alex Cunningham: But you believe that the the threshold for service. Government should be mandating the clinical commissioning groups to do this. Q699 Craig Whittaker: So is that transpiring on to Dr Shade Alu: That is our belief. We would want the front line? it mandated. Dame Moira Gibb: Not yet. Q696 Alex Cunningham: What about health and Q700 Craig Whittaker: Okay. We have also heard wellbeing boards? Will they be able to retain child that some local authorities offer a one-in, one-out protection as a specific and discrete priority in a world system for taking children into care. Could you advise in which they have such a wide remit for both adults’ us whether they have the right formula for taking the and children’s safeguarding services? right people in need into care if they operate that Dr Shade Alu: In response to that question—sorry, it system? is not a short response—there are concerns, because Dame Moira Gibb: I think that the system is illegal. the focus of health and wellbeing boards is wide, as They cannot fetter their discretion in that way. In some you describe it. There is not a mandatory membership cases, there is a considerable focus on stopping of anybody who has expertise in child protection. We children from coming into care, because it is difficult know that directors of children’s services are in care to offer the help to children. We have to be mandated members, but we also know that although clear that the local authority has responsibilities for some directors of children’s services have a social the child while the child is in the community, right care or education background, those roles do not exist through to if they are placed for adoption. The everywhere. There are lots of don’t-knows, not-sures. judgments are made up of lots and lots of judgments Because it has not been mandated that designated by individual workers. It is about whether there is an professionals, for example, should be part of health oversight and a challenge to those decisions about and wellbeing boards, we are hugely concerned that whether the right children are coming in, or whether those boards may not focus on child protection. children are being left in their families for too long. Again, we want something that—mandated becomes That sense of what is happening in practice, going a bit of a mantra—suggests strongly to health and further up the organisation, is certainly something that wellbeing boards that there has to be a child protection I would like to see happen. focus, perhaps a sub-group of the health and wellbeing board if it cannot be at the level of the board. That Q701 Craig Whittaker: Okay. So should there be a would be important. statutory duty then to provide early help, as Munro recommends, which the Government seem to have so Q697 Alex Cunningham: The Government do not far resisted? seem very keen on the words “ring-fenced funding” Dr Shade Alu: Certainly from the point of view of for anything across anything. Do you think there the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health we should be ring-fenced funding for child protection would say yes. That is a short answer because I know cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG07 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o007_th_7- CORRECTED Transcript 16 May 2012 (HC 137-i).xml
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16 May 2012 Dr Shade Alu and Dame Moira Gibb CBE we are running out of time. Going back to what I said anyway, we run into a bit of a vicious circle. The short previously, if things are not in statute, certainly from answer is, yes, we would want it in statute if possible. a health point of view and in an environment where Chair: Thank you both very much. I must now bring there are competing demands, a lot of the time those the session to a close. Various people have suggested things do not happen. With the threshold discussion that the civil and criminal definition of neglect needs that we are having, we are finding more and more that to be updated. Could I make a request for you to write health professionals have to hold on to the families to us if you see fit with your thoughts on the subject and children more because the thresholds into social of neglect and its definition, so we can ensure that care would be higher. Therefore, if no early help is in neglect isn’t neglected? Thank you both very much place to stop those children reaching those thresholds for coming along this morning. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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Tuesday 22 May 2012
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Neil Carmichael Damian Hinds Pat Glass Charlotte Leslie ______
Examination of Witness
Witness: Professor Eileen Munro, Professor of Social Policy, London School of Economics, gave evidence.
Q702 Chair: Good morning, Professor Munro. do you will have a much better understanding of the Thank you very much for attending this session of our mechanics of government than you had before. inquiry into the child protection system in England. It Professor Munro: Yes. seems hard to believe that we are now a year on and the Department has decided to publish your one-year- Q705 Chair: On the subject of coherence and trying on progress report this morning, in conjunction with to get agencies, Departments and groups to work your appearance before us today. That will make together to protect and look after the interests of the interesting reading. The Committee would have child, how best do you see that being delivered? You preferred more time to be able to read it before seeing said there should be oversight, but by whom and in you, but that is the Department for you. You say at the end of the one-year-on report that the Government what way? Are there powers missing? Is it purely should consider ongoing oversight of the whole political will? Is it having someone senior enough system so that progress is maintained and encouraged. with clarity about the leadership role? I am trying to What do you have in mind with that? work out what it looks like, and how we as a Select Professor Munro: I wanted to recommend that there Committee going forward, whether or not others do a was something like a one or two-year-on progress two-year-on review, would assess whether the report, but I did not in any way want to put into coherence you are looking for has been embedded in anyone’s mind that I should do it. I think it is time for the system. a fresh person to do that. There is that need, because Professor Munro: The majority of the effective work there is so much change related directly both to child that is done on Working Together is at local level. protection but also to the health and police reforms, These are the specific people in an area who know which by their very nature are so big that we cannot each other, talk to each other and make shared plans. be quite sure how they pan out in reality and whether In my report, I have some great examples of how local we end up with some unintended clashes so there are services are creating a unified plan for the spectrum gaps in the way services are being provided. of support to families. At the local level most of the nitty-gritty gets done, but what I am concerned about Q703 Chair: Is this potential lack of coherence your is that somewhere in the system there should be a biggest single concern? You seem to return to it again place where you can talk about problems and and again. somebody is willing to hear it. With a kind of Professor Munro: No, it is not my single biggest compliance culture you tend to be scared to report concern. My biggest concern is that we keep our nerve back difficulties because it looks as if it is just you and allow time, because this is about trying to change not obeying orders properly. Also, within that culture a system that has been saying, “We are doing okay if people do report difficulties the response tends to because we are complying with rules”, to one which be an addition to the rules. Therefore, it is a degree of recognises how very difficult it is to help families and humility to know we are trying to do something very makes its main priority, “Have we got the skills to difficult and willingness to see that it is starting to engage with families, motivate them, help them go wrong in a place and do something about it. It is change their behaviour and, when necessary, remove specifically whether, at the national level, policies and a child permanently?” It is about having patience, reforms are having unintended effects. because that will take time, but also weathering the next major media story. There will be a child death of some kind that captures the headlines. If you think of Q706 Chair: Are there any particular areas or the Peter Connelly case, the public became so critical agencies outside social care that you have most of all the professions, particularly social work, and concern about going forward? that can knock people’s confidence. It is much easier Professor Munro: I have been made aware of the to run back into rules than to stick with focusing on huge concerns within the health service about the your expertise and make a judgment, because when scale of the reforms and the fear that child protection you make a judgment you are responsible for what will get lost by people who do not directly deal with you do. When you follow a rule you say, “It’s not my it and so do not fully understand its significance. The fault, guv.” current system has a very good set of designated and named nurses and doctors. That needs somehow to be Q704 Chair: Doubtless because of the nature of the preserved, even if the organisation around them review you conducted and the work you continue to changes all its functions and titles. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro
Q707 Chair: At the moment is there a risk that it for instruction on compliance with rules, learn from will not be? the local authorities you have talked about that have Professor Munro: The problem is one of not steamed ahead with the spirit of what you described knowing. It may be that they will be clearly spelt out, in your review? but we do not know that. Professor Munro: In chapter 4 of the report there are quite a few examples of what local authorities have Q708 Charlotte Leslie: We have just had your been doing, so I am hoping that that would give them published report put in front of us this morning. some momentum. It is about having both enthusiasm Probably most of us have not had time to read it, so I and confidence. The places that have forged ahead would very much value your thoughts on whether, one seem to me to have been champing at the bit to do it year on from the publication of your review, you feel for a long time and are delighted to have momentum has been maintained or it has been lost. encouragement to do it. I think learning by example Professor Munro: There have certainly been times will be the stimulus, and the growing sense of being when I have been worried that momentum is fading rather out of step, old-fashioned and letting children away. In the report I have called this a “watershed” down. If you want to make a culture change you moment because there have been changes. A new cannot do it by edict from the centre; it has to evolve inspection framework that is coming in will be to a degree. I think there are enough places doing it looking at how effective you are in helping children to tilt the balance towards change. rather than how good you are at complying with procedures. There will be new performance Q710 Charlotte Leslie: With the shortening of information which is not to be treated as simplistic regulations and the erosion of tick-box rules, do you indicators but analyses what this means: what are the have any concern that guidance that was valuable may stories behind it in terms of children’s experiences that be lost with reference to specific forms of abuse? lead you to get this information? Revisions to the Professor Munro: It will not be lost; it stops being statutory guidance of Working Together will be statutory guidance, and it will be taken into the published very shortly and come into action. That will professional sector instead. In the College of Social allow a lot more flexibility. It does not change the Work for a year I have taken on the chair of the duties, but instead of Government telling people how faculty of child and family social work. I have been to perform their duties there will be more professional approached by the Royal College of Psychiatrists to and local autonomy. work with them on developing guidance around The LSCB system is getting well established; there is pre-birth assessment where there is mental illness. I now a network of LSCB chairs, so that is becoming a do not see it disappearing; I see it becoming a more robust player in the sector. You see that I have professional and not political guidance. a list of things. Within the sector there is a great deal of developments that give me confidence that, as the Q711 Charlotte Leslie: Do you think it is still the statutory guidance strips back the level of prescription case that social workers are seen as the primary people and puts more responsibility on to the sector, it will be responsible for children’s protection, or are other glad to take that responsibility. There is a developing professions beginning to be seen as equally system of peer review where people are willing to be responsible? more honest about their weaknesses than they were Professor Munro: I visit many other countries in the with Ofsted inspectors because they are talking to world and I think the UK does it best in that respect. their peers, and the people who are doing the Here we have a tradition of working together that inspection say they learn almost as much as those dates back to the 1970s. Most other developed being inspected because it makes them think about countries have a system of mandatory reporting where their own service. The Children’s Improvement Board the teacher or doctor refers a case to the social worker is also getting established, working across the country and runs away and leaves it to them to deal with. You and will become a mechanism for sharing learning, could argue that we would like to see even more of it, which is really important. but I think you should be proud of what has been I have also been made aware of a number of local achieved here. areas that have come together on a voluntary basis. There is a network of local authorities who are Q712 Charlotte Leslie: With specific reference to choosing to take the Signs of Safety approach to other professionals, are you able to elaborate any improve the social work skill. Another group is further your concerns about the effect of the health working with the people who designed the Hackney reforms, particularly on designated members of staff Reclaiming Social Work model. Again, that is a self- for protected children? help group. A lot of the regions are sharing their Professor Munro: I have to confess that some months learning. It seems to me there has been a lot of work ago I gave up trying to following the detail of the going on, but it is not highly visible. health reforms, so I cannot speak with accuracy. My report basically reflects the concerns I have received Q709 Charlotte Leslie: You have slightly anticipated from the Royal College of Paediatrics and other my next question. As I understand it, some local people in the health services, so it is anecdotal rather authorities have really been proactive in anticipating than my own direct concern, but I am aware that child the Working Together guidance and acting in the spirit protection is the kind of subject that a lot of people of your reforms. What lessons can local authorities would rather not be involved in. That is why it is one that have been slower, and perhaps have been waiting area where I think you must have a statutory duty. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
Ev 134 Education Committee: Evidence
22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro
Q713 Charlotte Leslie: Do you have any specific Q717 Pat Glass: We have also heard evidence that ideas of what should be done, and what should be social work training focuses too much upon skills and inserted into the health reforms? there is insufficient focus upon knowledge about child Professor Munro: Commissioning groups have to development, behavioural issues and how that impacts know that they need access to safeguarding expertise on the family. Is that a view you would share? and make sure that it is in the services they Professor Munro: I am not well enough informed of commission, and then monitor that it is being done as what social work training has been across the country, part of the commission. I could imagine the health but I do know that the reforms Moira Gibb and wellbeing boards playing a very important role, recommended are embedding a much more rigorous because the whole policy about early intervention to curriculum. The need for clear teaching, not just on improve health outcomes is hugely overlapping with child development but human development, because the social care agenda. It would not make sense for they deal with a lot of adults as well, is in the new them to be treated as separate tracks really, but the curriculum, and it should be there. I cannot say with shape and scale of it is yet to be seen. any confidence what weaknesses there are currently, but I do know that what is now being brought in is a much more reassuring and robust curriculum. Q714 Chair: The Royal College of Paediatrics last week said they thought there should be a statutory Q718 Neil Carmichael: Referring to older children duty to keep the designated roles in place. Do you aged 15 to 18 or 19, how do you think they are served think there is merit in that? by the existing system? Do you think, as has been Professor Munro: That would mean it should be in suggested to us, that there is too much judgment about the revised Working Together. I would have expected young people rather than helping them? it to be there, but I have not seen the revised Professor Munro: I have heard that from a lot of Working Together. people. The best of children at that age are a bit irritating, aren’t they? A lot of them come to attention Q715 Pat Glass: This Committee has heard a lot of because of naughty behaviour in some way, if it is in evidence to suggest that even in a complex system the criminal justice system or they are acting in sexual neglect appears to have been neglected. People like ways that worry concerned adults. To me, handling the NSPCC, Barnardo’s and Action for Children are the fact that they are behaving badly and deserve our telling us that there is a need to review both the understanding and help requires maturity and people criminal and civil definition of “neglect”. If you agree, being supported to work that way. If they come back what would you like to see changed? Do you think from an interview with a young boy and they are there is an argument for having a different definition obviously irritated by him, their supervisors should of “neglect” for children of different ages or ability? challenge them about that and say, “Okay. He is Professor Munro: I would agree with the concern that irritating; he is a teenager, but so what? What’s neglect gets neglected. I do not think it is because of happening to him? What is his home life like?” To a problem with the legal definition but because we me, it comes back to expertise and being able to work have a very formalised procedure that is better knowing that people have good and bad in them. designed to deal with an urgent concern about an incident of physical or sexual abuse, so neglect, which Q719 Neil Carmichael: Is there a tendency to regard is about a chronic pattern of parenting, does not come a 15, 16 or 17-year-old as somebody who will soon up as a serious case when you look at it in terms of become an adult anyway and therefore one should immediate harm to children. I would look at creating wait and see what happens? more flexibility in how you respond to a concern, not Professor Munro: I do not know the reality of saying that potentially the child is going to be killed practice on that. I can see the case you are making in the next 24 hours and you need to rush round there, that they might defer spending any money, but I honestly do not know. Quite a few young people come but this is a family that is not functioning well and into care at the age of 15 or 16, don’t they? So it you will need to develop a good working relationship cannot be a widespread problem. with it and stick with it for quite a while to change their behaviour. Then you start the whole case Q720 Neil Carmichael: We talked to a lot of young differently. people in that sort of age range a few weeks ago. One of the obvious difficulties many had had was that they Q716 Pat Glass: What about the whole issue of really did not know where to go. They felt unsure and definitions at different ages or abilities? What would tended to gravitate towards social services, but even not be seen as the neglect of a 14 year-old able child that description was not helping them to find the exact would cause you concerns if that child had severe route for them. Do we need to be advertising what is learning difficulties, for instance. already there in a more vigorous way, or do we need Professor Munro: But that is where professional to be thinking in terms of a national point where judgment should come in. Neglect always has to be in people can go to? the total circumstances of the case. You would make Professor Munro: I would not want to argue for a lot of lawyers very rich for a very long time if you another helpline. I think it is a matter of advertising tried to come up with a legal definition that captured the ones that we have, perhaps thinking about how the complexity of the scenarios that in reality you young people access information so we make sure it have to deal with. is easily found through Google searches, or whatever. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 135
22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro
If you have never come across the problem before you fault; they do not want to go to anyone. In that will not automatically know you have to go and ask situation what you need is objectivity. Is there any somebody, but I would have thought most young more objective thing to say, “If this is happening it is people can search the internet. A lot of them would not your fault; it is abuse”, to enable vulnerable have a teacher or some other adult they could ask, but people to come forward and talk about things more? there are a lot of leaflets and notices around saying Professor Munro: Soap operas can be very good in that if you are worried you can contact so and so. having a story line that gets it across to people. You There are plenty of notices for our students at the are right that there is a real need for stories and LSE—not that they get abused by lecturers—if they perhaps videos being made that schools can use to are distressed in any way. We make these things very help people understand what is abnormal. You have visible. There are plenty of existing mechanisms to only one family and you do not know which of their ask for help. oddities are unacceptable.
Q721 Neil Carmichael: When we were talking to Q724 Charlotte Leslie: If the abuser is saying, “This children in this age group one of the points that came is normal. Don’t tell anyone, and it is your fault”, a up at least twice related to talking to teachers about vulnerable person will not be in a position to say problems at home and teachers reacting to those bits anything to anyone. of information in a slightly unhelpful way. I am not Professor Munro: Yes. That is why it often takes going to go into the details, but I found one particular quite a long time for somebody fully to recognise they situation quite startling. Should we be thinking in are being abused and to ask for help. ChildLine is terms of more messaging to the teaching profession great in this way. There is also an internet site called about these issues, or are we looking at a better Beatbullying, which has a chat room. If your first interface between teachers and social services and foray into exploring it is in a chat room with your other authorities? peers, that can be very acceptable to young people. Professor Munro: I am not sure it is a formal recommendation, but in the text of my final report Q725 Chair: You said you did not think we should there is reference to the importance of people being have a new point of contact for young people. For able to have a conversation with a social worker if instance, would the expansion of ChildLine to older they are at the stage of being concerned but not being children be helpful? Would you like to see ChildLine, clear. Quite often, it is not a straightforward case which is a recognised name and brand, expanded so where a child has two broken bones which seem to more people are aware that it is there for them? have been caused by direct abuse; it is much more, Professor Munro: That is a way of speaking directly “There’s something worrying me here.” If you have to an adult. I do not know whether you have come not had much experience of that, it is where the across the Beatbullying organisation, but I find that a designated people in health are so good. Any doctor really interesting use of modern technology. They can chat to another doctor to talk through those have a chat room that is just a peer group but is concerns, and teachers should have a child protection monitored by adults. They have software that picks up person in the school. Beyond that, I think they should words as well. It will pick up if somebody is grooming also be able to talk through with a social worker, on it, but they also offer peer mentoring, which is without making a formal referral, whether there great because talking it through with a fellow victim should be a referral to somewhere and whether that who has survived is good, but it is a win-win situation. would be social care. Beyond that, they have a layer of counselling, and at any point they can refer on to the formal services. It Q722 Neil Carmichael: That last point is really is even more diverse in the ways it offers young important. It strikes me that, if you are in a situation people to talk about problems, and in a way with where abusive behaviour is heading in your direction, which young people are very familiar. you need to have some way of calibrating it to enable whoever is going to help you to deliver that help, but Q726 Chair: What about a national contact point for the individual who is being abused needs to know that adults? Is there any case for that? within the context of whatever else is happening in Professor Munro: It just adds another layer to it. All his or her life. I was wondering whether that was it will do is send you on to the local authority, so why something we could try to embed in the social not just make sure that the telephone number of the services sector. local authority is clearly set out in the phone book? Professor Munro: Remember that the heart of helping other people is through the relationship and Q727 Chair: The British Association of Social conversation rather than data entry, which is part of Workers has suggested that, notwithstanding its making it a human service again and, therefore, much positive direction on quite a few policies, there are more constructive for the young person. cuts in the number of social workers and so the support is not there. One of the benefits of the Q723 Charlotte Leslie: To add to Neil’s point, is NSPCC’S ChildLine is that it provides some form of there a case for more information for young people so vetting. It is possible to communicate with a local people can say, “If this is happening, this is not authority that is not responding and say, “Look, every acceptable and it is abuse”? Often, one of the other local authority is responding in this kind of time problems with a victim of abuse is that they blame and you’re not”, and put a bit of pressure on it. It does themselves; they think it is normal and it is all their create some ability to check, whereas if they just go cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
Ev 136 Education Committee: Evidence
22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro direct to the local authority we are left hearing only Q732 Damian Hinds: Do you get cross-border from them or their auditors as to how they are doing. flexibility in work force? If a particular local authority Professor Munro: It would not be where I would put has, for whatever reason, a spike in case load is it able money at this point. to draw on resources from neighbouring authorities on occasions? Q728 Chair: As to adult reporting, most tragedies Professor Munro: The smaller places may well have. over the years show there has been a failure to report I have the sense that in some of the more remote or where they have reported, sometimes repeatedly, places in Scotland they would do that, but I do not the local authority has not responded appropriately. have a clear knowledge of it. Does BASW have a point in suggesting that there are cuts in numbers at the moment, and therefore, if social Q733 Damian Hinds: On the question of cross- care within a local authority simply cannot respond agency collaboration, we visited a couple of areas that because of the case load, that will undermine the had set up multi-agency hubs. Do we have an idea in confidence of other professionals in bothering to how many areas that has happened? refer? You are not going to refer if you think they do Professor Munro: I do not. not do anything. Professor Munro: I have no idea about cuts. I have Q734 Damian Hinds: In the nature of Committee not seen any form of statistics on it. Whatever funding visits, sometimes you go to the ones that work really there is, there will always be a limit to how many well, because those are the poster children for the services you can provide. You cannot have universal service. Is there a view across the piece about places access; it is just not economically feasible. There will where that approach has worked well and other places always be some who are turned away. You just hope where perhaps it has not, and the learning points to be that they are the less important cases. drawn from the differences? Chair: That brings us neatly to the subject of Professor Munro: One of the interesting differences I thresholds. have noticed—I do not know its impact on what Damian Hinds: Chairman, to be clear when you were families experience—is that some are creating a multi- asking about a national contact point for adults you agency team to look at referrals and decide what to were using a small “c” and small “p”; you were not do, but others are creating a multi-agency team to referring to a database. provide services. Chair: Correct. Q735 Damian Hinds: Which is preferable? Professor Munro: It is very new. I am saying that I Q729 Damian Hinds: I just wanted to clear that up. would really like to see in the longer term what effect Professor Munro: I was confused by that. the multi-agency team has in providing help in that setting. Q730 Damian Hinds: In terms of thresholds—you have talked about some of these aspects already—we Q736 Damian Hinds: How does all of this dovetail have heard from some professionals that they have with what is generically termed the 120,000 initiative? been going up in response to financial pressures. It We know it is not exactly 120,000, blah, blah, blah, sounded from what you were saying just now that you and the approach may vary in different areas, but how do not have any particular evidence of that. Is that is that Government initiative impacting, if at all, what right? happens in local authorities and multi-agency Professor Munro: I do not have evidence. working? Professor Munro: My awareness of it is that areas are Q731 Damian Hinds: What you say is logical. trying to work out how it fits with their existing Whatever the limit and however it moves, there will services, because these are families that are already always be a limit, but how, if at all, is it possible in known to all of them. You do not want to add yet the system to make sure that, when there are acute another person into the mix. I know that in one local cases that really must be seen, there is never an issue authority it is being placed in the children’s social care of capacity that gets in the way of that case being department under the director so it becomes an dealt with? integral part of social care. If it remains as a very Professor Munro: I would doubt that there is an issue narrowly focused initiative it will die a death once its of capacity in the sense that, if the social care pilot stage has gone. If it is to flourish it has to become department to which you have referred considered this embedded in ordinary work, doesn’t it? was an urgent and important case, they would find time for it. The problem is more about how they Q737 Damian Hinds: We have heard from front-line interpret the evidence and say, “This does not look so professionals across different disciplines that quite serious.” That is where I think neglect keeps getting a often they have difficulty in having referral taken on raw deal, because in the sense of urgency it is not board, even though they know the family concerned there. We need to have a sense of importance that is very well. They are very confident in their assessment, based on damage to the child rather than the but, for whatever reason—in the systems and process acuteness. It is about having staff who are expert I suppose—it does not tick enough boxes, or the right enough to know what kinds of problems occur, or can boxes, to use that term. What could be done to make be suspicious of severe family problems that can be that soft intelligence and the value of professional very damaging to a child’s development. judgment count more? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 137
22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro
Professor Munro: What do you mean by “soft crude terms that there are not enough children being intelligence” in that setting? taken into care because the system is too optimistic about the prospects of changing a family’s behaviour, Q738 Damian Hinds: I suppose it may not be soft; or is that too much of a generalisation? it may be a mixture. I suppose the way you would Professor Munro: I think that is too big a leap. express it in the vernacular is that you know it when Obviously, even when you take them into care you you see it. If you have been a health visitor for 20 cannot guarantee that you can turn them into happy years and somebody says, “Show me the evidence of well-adjusted adults. You can make some why this child is at risk”, you may not be able to say improvements in a lot of families but that does not that they fulfil the threshold of 10 of the 14 criteria, turn them into model families. You may not be able or however many there are, but you say, “I visit to solve all of the problems but you may make it good however many families it is every week. Over my enough, but what is good enough? I think part of it— professional career I know it; I can feel when I am in it is a good quality in our society—is that we want a family where there is a real problem. I’m telling better for all children, so this problem that might have you there is a real problem in this family. Please do been tolerated in the past is becoming more worrying. something about it.” Professor Munro: I would certainly respect that Q743 Damian Hinds: Given that rather expert judgment, but, if you ask them, usually people unsatisfactory and pessimistic situation—I do not can unpack it. When they think back, they can say it mean it should be more optimistic, but it is not the was the way there was no eye contact between the most happy view of the challenges in changing things mother and baby, or the way the pram was placed so for the most troubled or difficult families—if you did the baby could not be seen. A lot of them can identify have all the resources in the world and the power to things from these little fragments. do everything else to change legislation and change the way local authorities, the public sector and Q739 Damian Hinds: But will those criteria everybody else operated, given all the experience you necessarily be counted in evidence—“taken seriously” have amassed in doing this work, what would you is perhaps the wrong expression—in the system? want to see changed? Professor Munro: It is a question of whether the Professor Munro: I would like to see more person receiving the referral is expert enough. If your therapeutic help offered at the early stages. For mindset is that you are overworked and trying to keep example, the Family Drug and Alcohol Court, which cases out, you listen to evidence in a different way. provides a really intensive package of care, gives the parents a fair chance to improve and, when they fail, Q740 Damian Hinds: You find reasons. it is much more obvious that they are not making Professor Munro: That is the problem. The kind of progress because you are working closely with them, scenario you describe is very typical. Sometimes you so you can make a quicker judgment that this is going get cases where there are clear physical injuries and it nowhere and you need to remove the child. At the is straightforward, but there are not many like that. moment we provide a lot of services that are vaguely Most of them are more of a growing concern about a supportive and monitoring but do not work whole set of different issues that come together to significantly with parents to improve their parenting mean there is something inadequate about the child’s skills. I would like to see the money we have targeted life. much more on doing something useful.
Q741 Damian Hinds: We have also heard a number Q744 Damian Hinds: Though not particularly of times, including the field visits, that the idea of a closely related to what I have just been asking, I want threshold for intervention is an outdated concept in to come back to what you were saying about media terms of a line that you cross over. There are and new media use. You mentioned the power of soap gradations and support services of different sorts operas to bring issues out into the open and have them being made available to all families. Are they right? discussed in social settings. You have also talked Professor Munro: Yes. The threshold suggests that it about Beatbullying. With the experience you have is going up. I prefer to think about what criteria you amassed in your work, what do you think media and have for needing this service. If you want to make a new media are not doing, and what more could be referral to social care what do you want in it? done specifically to deal with child abuse to bring Sometimes it is just that you do not know how to those topics out into the open, to change the way handle it and want somebody else to take it on, which referrals are done, or change self-help for families is understandable, but it may be that the social themselves to start realising they have a problem? workers are no better able than you. You have to Professor Munro: I think there is a lot of potential in remember that when it comes to chronically all these new technologies. I know there has been a dysfunctional families there is very modest evidence proposal to extend the Beatbullying concept to a about being able significantly to change their parenting support system. Under that model behaviour. It is not as if we actually could do it and somebody is monitoring what is being said, so it is not make all families fantastic if only we had enough just a chat room where somebody can be encouraging services. others to do appalling things. I have forgotten the correct term. Q742 Damian Hinds: Do you want to expand on that a little? Is the implication of what you are saying in Q745 Damian Hinds: Moderator. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
Ev 138 Education Committee: Evidence
22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro
Professor Munro: Yes, it is one that will moderate it. malicious individuals who come down in judgment on One is also able to say to people, “Look, you’re really families for whom no such damaging judgment is struggling. This is not the ordinary kind of difficult justified? behaviour in a baby. You need to go to your doctor.” Professor Munro: I do not think you have given There is potential for that. The system we have power to those people; you have put the fear of God in developed of being very focused on compliance has them. They are scared that they might miss something. also made families into passive recipients of help. They need to be much more actively involved, first, Q749 Chair: But children are taken away from because that is the only way you can get them to parents by a combination of social worker concern change their behaviour, but, second, most of the and a medical judgment, and there appear to be cases families have a desire to do a decent job. Therefore, where, even when the original evidence has been to harness that motivation and give them more control found to be incorrect, the system seems to continue in being able to access help would be very desirable. remorselessly to judge the family as inadequate. Those who express fears about that side of the system Q746 Damian Hinds: To follow that up, what do you are often treated as mad voices. Is it possible that there think might be done to improve on the opportunities are two big problems: one is not intervening robustly for families to come forward and themselves try to enough and the other is that that combination of do better? elements can lead to gross injustice to families—that Professor Munro: It is the mentality of the services must be true—and we need to ensure we get right the that are responding to them. They are there to provide balance between intervening as quickly as possible to a service to help rather than to inspect and monitor protect the child and recognising the devastating them. A lot of the feedback I get from families is impact of powers being used against families uneasiness about professionals being there to inappropriately? condemn them and being uneasy about what they can Professor Munro: But I think what you are picking get blamed for, and it makes them hesitant to ask. up is the way human beings tend to make up their Although we need to have a level of suspicion about minds and stick to it. This is damaging if they have serious abuse and neglect, we also need to know that decided it is a dodgy family regardless or it is a benign most of the families are struggling with a problem family regardless. That is where good quality critical which is perhaps poor parenting but is not at the level supervision is so needed. The heart of it is knowing where we are wanting to turn to the law and that that is a really difficult human task to do for compulsion. It is a real problem at the moment that yourself. In your own mind it all fits together too many families feel scared and that they will be beautifully, so other people have to say to you, “You harshly judged rather than helped. are forgetting the good qualities here. Is there another way of explaining that evidence?” Beyond that, you Q747 Chair: Do you think that extends to people need a culture where people can admit that they got it who come into contact with the care system, for wrong without being jeered at. That is why I say instance adoptive families? I met a family last week humility is something we should praise. who felt that the social workers were so used to I did an evaluation of Hackney. They were very good coming in with exactly that mood of judgment and in the units in having critical reviews of their condemnation that when they came in to adopt judgments, but when I wrote up the report the children they were treated in exactly the same way managers were concerned because they thought The and found themselves condemned. Once you are Sun newspaper could read it as “Hackney social condemned the system appears to do everything it can workers admit to making lots of mistakes”. I worded to repeat and support its condemnation of you. it as well as I could. That seems to me to be a sign of Professor Munro: It is something that has developed virtue: you realise when digging deeper that your first over time. People have ended up being so scared of impression was quite wrong. That is something that missing a case of serious abuse that they go in looking should be encouraged as good professional practice, just for that. Of course, it is a distorted picture of a not sticking pig-headedly with your judgment as if it family, because families have strengths, resilience and is your personal honour that is at stake. an extended network of family and friends who help out. Good assessment looks equally at the strengths as Q750 Chair: The people who are within the system well as the negatives in a family. The Signs of Safety work together all the time. The experts and the approach that many are using is extremely clear about judges—everyone involved in the process—work with developing with the family a table of what is going one another all the time, and those relationships are well and what is going badly and showing respect and important. Referring to a Kafkaesque nightmare of a admiration for all they are doing well as well as system in which everyone keeps reinforcing and saying, “But this is not good enough.” Adoptive backing a person who is sticking to their original line, parents must feel really bewildered by getting that even though the evidence is not there, how real is response. that? How frequent is it? What could we do to support front-line workers doing a difficult job and yet have Q748 Chair: Is it possible we have a system, sufficient challenge where they have been caught up hopefully well at the margins, that is too slow to in the momentum of sticking with their original intervene to take a child into care for protection and, judgment? at the same time, puts too much power in the hands of Professor Munro: I have heard stories from families poorly qualified, inexperienced and occasionally even that are so convincing to me that I am sure this does cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 Professor Eileen Munro happen. I do not know how widespread it is, but the why you think you are right, and, rather like a good way to tackle it is by knowing that at our best we student essay, looking at why the other person reach the judgment on the available evidence. This is disagrees and trying to understand why there is the best thing to do. One of my bugbears is people’s disagreement. One of the things I have noticed in case use of the word “ensure”. We cannot ensure we get it reviews is that people often reject a challenge to their right; we can do our best, but the whole language of judgment by saying something rude about the person surety and certainty has crept in, and then it makes who has made the challenge. If ever that happens it people feel they are failing because they did not get it should be seen as a red flag of warning that you are right. I have done a number of case reviews where missing something to which you should pay more other professionals have been concerned but feel it is serious attention. It comes down to the quality of not polite to ask and challenge. That is a real problem. reasoning and support for good reasoning. You have to get a much more vigorous culture. We are dealing with really difficult judgments and we should Q752 Charlotte Leslie: But the structure has to exist always question whether we got it wrong or whether within which that reasoning has power and merit. In the family has changed. They are alive and they grow. one constituency case, the problem was that the case It may be they are no longer a cause for concern, and had been made and the reasoning was there, but there we should be able to say, “I’ve made mistakes”, did not seem to be any structural mechanism whereby without being criticised for it. that reasoning had any traction or force. It got resolved after an awfully long time. The education of Q751 Charlotte Leslie: Do you think that in a sense the child suffered deeply; it took far too long. The we have too much accountability, or accountability system seemed to be set up so one individual’s that is too blunt, in one part of the system—I know judgment could override an awful lot of evidence, and this is something we will come to in the next for that reason there was not any capacity for dialogue session—and not enough accountability in another to have traction. part of the system? As MPs we all get constituency Professor Munro: I think the new inspection process mail bags. Sometimes these stories do crop up. Alas, will make a contribution to that, because it will be the stories of neglect do not often crop up in our mail talking much more to families and children and to bags for obvious reasons, but stories about when workers to justify the way they are working. It will things go wrong do. One of the situations I have come be a much more intense scrutiny which should then across, which we will talk about later on, is where a encourage the whole organisation to put more CAFCASS guardian has not made judgments in line importance on that. with any of the parental family players or the social services. They have had tremendous problems in Q753 Chair: To go back to the definition of neglect, getting the child where the child, the teacher and the you said you were not particularly convinced of the GP want it to be because of insufficient accountability need for a new definition. Does that apply to both the for the decisions and actions of the CAFCASS 1933 Act criminal definition and the civil definition in guardian. Do you think that on the one hand we have the 1989 Act? very blunt accountability which leads to tick-box Professor Munro: I do not feel competent to judgments and in another area not sufficient comment on the 1933 definition, but the one in the accountability so that decisions can be made without 1989 Act seems to me good enough. It is the use and evidence? implementation of it that needs to be improved. Professor Munro: I think that in a poor system you Chair: Thank you very much indeed for giving end up with a conflict of opinions becoming a power evidence to us this morning. struggle. It should be an intellectual opening out of
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: District Judge Nicholas Crichton, Family Drug and Alcohol Court, and Anthony Douglas, Chief Executive, Children and Families Courts Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS), gave evidence.
Q754 Chair: Good morning. I think this is the first Judge Crichton: I am just a jobbing judge. I am not time we have had a judge appearing before the sure I can answer that. What I see is what is placed in Committee since I have been on it, unless I have front of me. I do not know that I can comment on forgotten in which case I apologise to your rogue cases, but the neglect cases—Professor Munro predecessor. Welcome, Judge Crichton, and, Mr articulated it far better than I can—are the vast Douglas, it is a pleasure to see you again before us. majority of the work that I do, and it is a question of Perhaps we could start off where we left at the end of identifying when the tipping point has been arrived at the previous session. We were talking about rogue and something more has to be done about it. That is cases, the way the system reinforces early decisions a very difficult decision for a social worker to make. and the professional concerned sticking to their guns When people say to me that there has been a spike in and not having that humility and self-criticism, and cases being brought to court, perhaps because of the dangers of the system continuing to reinforce and Climbié or baby Peter Connelly, “and social services back up an erroneous initial judgment. How big an are overreacting, aren’t they?” that is not my picture. issue is that? I do not think I have ever seen a case where I scratch cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas my head and think, “Why are we here?” Much more keep with that policy objective, because for children often I am scratching my head and thinking, “Why in those situations life is terrifying quite often and weren’t we here sooner?” they deserve to be rescued from it.
Q755 Chair: But is it possible that both extremes are Q757 Chair: You said it was patchy. How big is the true: that the system needs to move in more robustly variability in quality in your experience? to protect children in many cases and, albeit at the Anthony Douglas: There is variability of resourcing, margins, there are cases where because of that quality and placements. Some of these are quite systemic understanding, and perhaps because of the explainable by the local context and environment. It principle that the child’s interests come first, once a is virtually impossible to compare each of the 152 judgment has been made by professionals about a local authorities in England objectively. As Nick said, family then, short of that initial professional putting what you do have is the individual case before you. up their hands and saying, “Oh, no; I was completely Certainly, our guardians are independent of everybody wrong”, it has a remorseless logic, and people like else, as your colleague suggested, and sometimes that yourself in the system, whose overall impression is works to good effect to protect children. Most of the that, if anything, there is too little intervention, really time we need to try to persuade other parties to cases are caught up in a Kafkaesque nightmare? They more quickly, if they do need persuading, or cede our cannot be heard and seen and everybody has a position if we are wrong. We are as accountable as predilection towards saying, “We need more and not everybody else to the court, and ultimately to the court less of this.” of child opinion. On the individual case, there is very Judge Crichton: Professor Munro put her finger on it. rarely a doubt about something serious having I am not a social worker; maybe you need to hear happened; it is just a question of what is to be done from Mr Douglas, but social work needs to be about about it. the management of manageable risk. We cannot steam-roller all the risk out of every situation. Q758 Chair: Is the variability between local authorities so great that, if you were playing that role Q756 Chair: You have said you are not a social in different authorities for a child in the same worker, but you are a judge and your job is to hear circumstances, because of the local authority care that and see the evidence on paper, listen to the tone of the was likely to result in one case you would decide that people and look them in the eye. Whatever it is, you they should be taken into care and in another you are sitting in judgment getting a feeling for whether would decide it would be better if they were not? or not the story you are being told is true. Are you Anthony Douglas: That will always happen with saying that no cases have come in front of you where professional judgment. There are many cases the professionals concerned had come to the wrong involving children on the edge of care—many times judgment and you did not sense that? I am not the number of those in care—where you could argue expressing this very well, but I am surprised you feel it either way. You will get professionals or courts that everybody has always turned up having behaved determining, on the balance of probabilities, that a in the right way, if that is what you are saying. child should be at home or away from home Judge Crichton: If there are variations they are only permanently, but in the vast majority of cases there is in degree and they are not that great. Sometimes there no disagreement that something major needs to is a case where the local authority sets out to seek change in a child’s life. The cases at the margin are removal of a child or children and we can arrive at a fewer and fewer. situation where it is worth persevering because this is a family that needs support, but the great majority of cases are those where removal is necessary, because Q759 Chair: My point was about the quality of what that is the situation that has been arrived at. was going to result if you put the child into care. You Anthony Douglas: That is the picture our children’s have talked about the variability and patchiness of the guardians see every day. On Friday we are publishing quality of service. Is it so extreme that with a child in a three-years-on study from the Baby P case into care one place you would have no doubt whatsoever that applications, which have been at record levels for you wanted to get them taken into care and in another some time. What our guardians have found is that the you would be so unsure of the quality of care that local authority is intervening much more quickly and would result that you would prefer to take the risk of in a much more timely way and that virtually every leaving them with the family? Is it that bad? child they come across has met the legal threshold for Anthony Douglas: No. The variability is enormous intervention. That is encouraging in a world where we within each local authority, so you could have, as it have plenty of reasons to be pessimistic. It is were, the worst local authority and the best possible encouraging because what the media storm led to was outcome for a child, and similarly there is no an intensive review of cases and a much greater universally good authority. The second point is that realisation of the impact of neglect on children and, each child is so diverse and their needs so special that therefore, much more timely care applications. While to predict the outcomes from a particular course of the outcomes for children are still patchy and there therapy or placement is extraordinarily hard. What we are many difficulties with therapeutic services and the do not have is a good longitudinal outcome study for number of foster and adoptive placements, the children who remain at home, go back home or stay primary purpose under the child protection system is in care, but those studies we do have suggest that the to protect children from immediate harm. We must care system is improving, although there is a long way cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas to go, and the younger the child the more urgent the between parents, but where communication has need to act quickly. broken down entirely and children are caught in the middle it is usually the worst outcome if it is Q760 Neil Carmichael: As you know, the formalised as shared residence, as Nick said. We work Government are thinking about introducing legislation with a lot of children who look back on decisions in terms of shared parenting, effectively, for children. made. What it shows is that the law has only a limited How do you think that is going to impact in general impact in complex family breakdown cases. terms the question of the protection of children? Sometimes when children are forced to see one parent Judge Crichton: This is a difficult one. We have the because we think it is in their best interests, they look legal concept of parental responsibility already in the back on that as a form of coercion that we should not Children Act, and we have the legal concept of have recommended. Sometimes if we make an residence—where a child should live—in the Children assumption one parent is too dangerous for them to Act. When we refer to shared parenting, what are we have contact with, they look back and say, “That talking about? We do not have a legal term for shared wasn’t the case. I could handle him or her. You got parenting, but I think shared parenting is shared that wrong.” Individual children do make us quite parental responsibility, so we already have it. Most humble about the work we do in trying to get it right fathers—usually, those are the ones we are talking over the course of their childhood, but I do think there about—can get parental responsibility very quickly. is a risk from shared orders that the child is kept in They have parental responsibility if they are married the middle of a post-separation dispute that will never to the mother; they have it if they are registered on be resolved and will go to the grave with the parents. I the birth certificate. They can get an agreement from think we have a duty to protect children against being mother and, if that agreement is not forthcoming, they forever caught in the middle. can come to court and ask for parental responsibility. In the vast majority of cases they will get it. The only Q764 Neil Carmichael: In contrast to the Family cases in which they will not get it is if there is a Justice Review, which was concerned about this feeling that the child will not be safe if we give shared measure, and subject to the definition arrived at, parental responsibility, so I am not sure what more neither of you is concerned that it would be can be done to provide that because it is there already. detrimental to protecting children. What I am very concerned about is the concept of Anthony Douglas: I think there has been a sea change shared residence. Sometimes parents come and ask for in fathering especially. We did a study a couple of shared residence and you think, “What is it you are years ago that showed that in contested cases before asking for?” More often than not, what they are asking court fathers were awarded residence virtually in the for is what they already have, which is shared parental same numbers as mothers. That is contrary to popular responsibility. The danger of going to shared myth. I think the existing arrangements are pretty residence—that is not the phrase you used in your sound. It is just the nature of the cases. Whether they question, but it is the one that is sometimes are care cases in which there is the toxic combination conflated—is that you then get into arguments such of domestic violence and maybe mental health as, “I’m entitled to 50% of the child’s time”, which problems, particularly drug abuse, that are so difficult may not be in the best interests of the child. That is to work with, or intractable disputes in private cases where the tensions are. I do not know whether that that are almost beyond the ability of the law to deal is helpful. with, what is needed are therapeutic services, public information campaigns about the damage done to Q761 Neil Carmichael: It certainly is, because I children and so on. I think that the changes to the think it is a very interesting and complex question. If law, if they help to promote shared parenting for the the Government is creating a legal presumption in majority, will be in the interests of children, as long favour of contact between parents, where does that as those safeguards are built in. place the court? On what do you think the judgments would be based with that new presumption? Q765 Neil Carmichael: In terms of a set of parents, Judge Crichton: It is going to depend upon the one abusive to a child and one not, obviously there wording that the Government comes up with. are various mechanisms and processes to go through, but in general terms do you think it is better to support Q762 Neil Carmichael: In other words, it is the non-abusive parent rather than punish and remove definition. the abusive one? Judge Crichton: Yes. But if we are talking of shared Anthony Douglas: In a world of limited resources parenting we have already got it in shared parental ideally you would support both, but, from the child’s responsibility. Since the Children Act courts have point of view, you have to go with the safe non- always recognised the importance of a child having a abusive parent. Ultimately, abusive parents go on to meaningful relationship with both parents so long as have other children. Unless there is a life cycle that is safe both physically and emotionally. approach to certain people who are damaging children, the cost to the public purse and to individual Q763 Neil Carmichael: Mr Douglas, what do you children becomes massive. Some work is going on in think about this line of questioning? local authority areas when children have been Anthony Douglas: I think shared parenting works removed to give rehab and treatment services—it is a enormously well in the vast majority of parental bit like the Family Drug and Alcohol Court—to breakdown where there is continuing communication parents. That treatment is carried out before the next cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas pre-birth conference when the next child is inevitably are some parents—some fathers in particular—who taken away. are so abusive that you cannot see how we are ever Judge Crichton: We have to be careful to understand going to get them into a situation where they can what we mean by an abusive parent. There are all contribute anything useful to the child’s life. Some sorts of levels of abuse. Of course, the violent drunken children know that and make it very clear to the father who assaults the mother on a regular basis is a CAFCASS officer, “I don’t want to see my dad.” But danger to the child long term, but there are also other there are all sorts of levels below that. forms of abuse. I am talking more about physical abuse, but there is physical and emotional abuse at the Q768 Chair: I’m sorry, I am talking about where time a relationship breaks down. That is a very there is current serious domestic violence; is there a difficult situation particularly for the mother but also tendency to go in and take the child out of that for the children. Once the parents have separated and situation, and a presumption of doing so, rather than divorced, if they were married, it is not to say that this perhaps more of a presumption of supporting the father may not still have significant contributions to non-abusive parent and seeing if there is a solution make to the child’s life. Quite frequently, courts are there, while nonetheless protecting the child? dealing with cases where the mother is still quite bitter Judge Crichton: If the non-abusive parent is and resentful about what has happened at that time, providing good care for the child, why would you take but the father has now moved out of the household such a drastic step to remove the child? What you and wants to see the child. We are talking about have to do is protect—it is usually the mother and the children who did go through a difficult time while that child—from the abuser. I think that is what we do, by was happening between the parents but who now want and large, but it depends on the standard of care and to see their dad and have a relationship with him. It is the nature of the relationship between the child and difficult for the mother to put behind her what the non-abusive parent. happened in that period; it is difficult for all three parties, but it is a different situation from that long- Q769 Chair: You do not think we need more term violent and abusive father, so we are coming emphasis on the support of the non-abusive parent down to gradations again. than we have now? Do you think we have the balance about right? Q766 Neil Carmichael: The Government have stated Anthony Douglas: If I may, as you know the that their proposed changes are effectively directed Government is consulting on extending the legal towards the assumption that a married couple or two definition of domestic violence to include coercive parents are better for the child’s long-term welfare. control. When I started practicing as a social worker Will that influence your position, Anthony, in terms we knew very little about the complexity of domestic of the work you do, and certainly your position in the court? violence or its interplay with other factors. We are becoming more aware of post-separation control, Anthony Douglas: Not really. We are duty bound to coercive control, the ways in which it can undermine consider effectively a presumption of continuing the non-abusive parent in parenting and the interplay contact. It is nearly always right for children, post-separation. We are already duty bound to stop of that with coached children: children manipulated that if the threat to a child is significant. If I were by one parent against the other. The more light we can looking at legal changes, as has been said before, I shine on these cases—and the needs of the child, in would not look at the 1933 Act on neglect; I think particular, who is a witness or, if you like, a victim there are other areas to look at that would help within the family of its continuation—the better. children more. It is not a simple question of short-term services. In Judge Crichton: I agree with that, but while I was the end, the best guarantor is probably a shift in public listening to Professor Munro I was thinking about it, awareness and education about the damage done by because there is a huge danger in trying to over-define domestic violence. In a world where resources are what we are talking about. It is a bit like describing fewer and priority setting has to be more exclusive, an elephant: it is not easy to sit here and describe I am particularly minded by the campaigns against them, but my God, if one comes through the door I smoking, drink driving, other aspects of public health, know one when I see one. Neglect is in that category. and the new duty on local authorities for public health I am wary of definitions, because, as Professor Munro next April. There is a tremendous amount that could said, if we define things too tightly we make a whole be done to increase public awareness. Ultimately, lot of people very rich over a long period of time— unless parents change their behaviour, services only and I am a lawyer. have a minimal impact at times on what is happening Neil Carmichael: Well done, thank you very much. to a child. That is my questioning over. Q770 Chair: That was an excellent and interesting Q767 Chair: In the case of serious domestic answer; it did not quite tell me the answer to my violence, should more be done to help support the question, though, which was: should there be greater non-abusive parent rather than moving swiftly to take emphasis than we have now on supporting a the child away? non-abusive parent? Judge Crichton: I completely agree with what Anthony Douglas: In the end at court, with limited Anthony has said. In an ideal world we support resources, you have to make the right decision. I everybody, but it depends on the level of abuse. There would put the emphasis on the application and making cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas the right decision based upon as good an assessment protection system, because we need to value social as you can get. That is the best we can do. work within our society. End of short speech. Coming back now to Norgrove Q771 Chair: So is that a yes or a no? and the Family Justice Review: yes, of course we need Anthony Douglas: It is a yes to always backing the more urgency in the decision-making process, and I parent or the parents who are protecting the child from completely understand the 26-week aspiration. I am the impact of that. fond of saying, and am frequently saying, two months is 1% of a child’s childhood. If we spend two years Q772 Pat Glass: It was interesting to hear Professor getting to a decision for a child we have thrown away Munro earlier talking about the dilemma of the 12% of his childhood. I think the review will make a professional working with a family and knowing that difference, but we should beware the pendulum that you are only going to get the most positive outcome swings too far. Not only do parents have Article 8 if that family views the services as supportive and rights to respect for their family life, children have not as monitoring or inspection. We have heard as a Article 8 rights to respect for their family life. We committee, many times, from teachers, doctors and must not rush them out of their family too quickly if magistrates, about cases—and I have personally seen there is a realistic prospect that they can remain there them—that take years to get to the courts, and then with proper support. there are further delays once we get into the courts There is an awful lot of work to be done to make system. Do you believe that the recommendations of the whole process more efficient: getting social work the Family Justice Review will make a difference, and reports and information before the court more quickly; will they make a difference quickly enough for those reducing the number of experts and getting the expert children? opinions that we need more quickly; and having—not Anthony Douglas: I do think they will make a everybody agrees with this, but I believe in it firmly— difference. The report we are releasing on Friday will, more courts, judges and specialist judges available so as I said, show more urgency about neglect and not that we can provide more judicial continuity and get leaving children in these situations for too long, but it cases done more quickly and efficiently, but with has taken us a long time to get to the current level of better decisions for children. unacceptable delay, particularly in public law cases. They were at the new expected limit of 26 weeks in Q773 Pat Glass: In the Scottish legal system there 1995, so having taken 17 years to get to that point it is a positive statement around parenting. One of the will take us a little while to get back to something recommendations of the Family Justice Review was more acceptable. Some areas, like Derbyshire and that when a child is registered a parent should be Suffolk, are quite close to that limit in some cases handed a sheet of paper that says, “This is what good already, so there is best practice. It is very important parenting is about”. Because our system is so focused not to have a sequence of expert reports that drag on negative statements, do you think that is something cases out. Nick’s case is a good example of concurrent that you would agree with? assessment, treatment and support that can shorten Anthony Douglas: I am not sure about a piece of timescales. paper at birth; it is a very emotional time. I do think that we need to be careful, because 25 years ago, when some of the delays, checks and balances Q774 Pat Glass: Do we need a positive statement, or were not there, parents could lose their child at the is the current 1989 Act sufficient? stroke of a senior manager’s pen in a local authority. Anthony Douglas: Yes, I think the Act is. I do not Many of the safeguards we have brought in since have think the issue is about legislation, but a lot more at least given parents the right to an independent voice could be done on public education, awareness and for them, but, as everybody now concludes, that has information. gone too far, at the expense of a child’s timescale. I Judge Crichton: School curriculum. do think these reforms would make a difference, and I do think there is evidence of momentum towards Q775 Damian Hinds: Not PSHE, please; is that what that in many courts and in many local authorities. you were going to say? Chair: We still have quite a bit of stuff to get through Judge Crichton: I do not even know what that in a limited time. If we could have short questions and stands for. answers that would be great. Anthony Douglas: As Eileen said, the designated Judge Crichton: I could talk about this until this teacher has a good role to play. Head teachers have, evening, but I will not. First of all, the issue of social since the introduction of virtual schools, taken more workers supporting rather than inspecting and interest in children in care. That has been important. monitoring is critical. I not infrequently have the The NHS: a huge amount still needs to be done to experience of saying to parents, “You have to listen to give these children clinical priority; they do not get these people, social workers: they have concerns, the priority on pure clinical grounds. Much more needs to concerns are genuine, let’s work together.” Too often be done in the guidance to organisations and the way parents say to me, “Support me? All they are doing is services are organised than in new legislation. watching until I make a mistake, and then they can take my child away.” There is a real issue about Q776 Damian Hinds: Speaking of in school, it is a raising the profile of social work. Professor Munro’s natural thing to say: young people grow up and all Report and the reforms she is trying to put in place too soon, in many cases, they are going to be parents are absolutely essential to a better functioning child themselves. PSHE, by the way, is personal, social and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas health education. Different schools use it to mean intensively with these families that we find out pretty slightly different things, but it is the catchall thing for quickly the families that are not going to make it. But social responsibility. Generally, whenever there is a for those families who, given the right, intensive social problem—teenage pregnancy, drugs, alcohol, support, can make it, there are some astonishing death, you name it—the answer is a bolt-on module results of families who you would not have expected to PSHE. Some people think it is more fundamental: to make it and have done really well. We have had Frank Field, for example, says that if you teach brain one family with six children adopted and another with development in GCSE science—so if teenagers see seven adopted who have made it with the seventh and the difference between a neglected child and a well- eighth children respectively. In the long term will they looked-after child—presumably most people want to have made it? That remains to be seen, but at the be a good parent, and that makes a difference. Do you moment the signs are very good. have a feeling from your line of work about what it is This programme is also producing a better and closer that schools should be doing? Maybe it is not about what you teach at all; maybe it is more about ethos working relationship between the family and social and responsibility. Anyway, sorry; my Chairman gets services, because the families are coming to a better upset with long questions, quite understandably so. understanding of why everybody is so concerned Judge Crichton: I am going to digress for a second, about the way in which they are caring for their but not for long and I hope it is valuable. You talk children. I do not want to get overexcited about it about ethos and responsibility. Like Professor Munro because the evaluation on it is quite early and is I am very lucky; I do a lot of work in a lot of parts of continuing, but we are getting more children home; the world. I have recently come back from Namibia. we are identifying more quickly the children who They are putting into their legislation that children cannot go home; more of the parents of the children have responsibilities. They have responsibilities who cannot come home are understanding why their within their families, schools and communities, and children cannot come home, and are saying that they to their nation. They are putting that into the school accept the situation. There are all sorts of levels of curriculum, aged six or seven. That is quite an success, and actually we save money. interesting concept, if it is properly introduced to the curriculum. We get down to the 120,000. The point I Q779 Damian Hinds: Are there other types of am trying to make is that if we make parenting and programmes that you can envisage that might the importance of responsible parenting a part of that complement and add to those effects, apart from drugs overall picture from a very early stage, I can see value and alcohol? in that. Maybe a judge should not talk like that; I do Judge Crichton: It is a model that could be adapted. not know. It could be adapted to domestic violence situations, although I have to say that in 150 cases we have had Q777 Damian Hinds: Can I ask what lessons you through FDAC only one, maybe two, have not also think there are from the CAFCASS pre-proceedings pilots? We talked a couple of times about the Family had a significant domestic violence component. It is Drug and Alcohol Court, which I know Judge a model that could be adapted to mental health and Crichton has pioneered. What is the ultimate potential learning disability. of those things for addressing chaotic behaviour and parenting capacity as an alternative to other actions? Q780 Damian Hinds: Finally from me, because I Anthony Douglas: It is quite early days, but to give a know time is short, what are the merits of special short answer I suppose the headline is that closer guardianship as an alternative to adoption for creating working between CAFCASS guardians and local permanent stability for older children? authority social workers has led, in some cases, to Anthony Douglas: It has been enormously successful. a stronger degree of trust between parents and local It is not such a radical intervention as adoption, and authorities. Often proceedings are brought and once a child is subject to a special guardianship order continue because of a breakdown in trust on the local he or she is no longer in care. It can give certainty to authority side about the parents, as well as the parents children about where they live until they are 18, and about professionals. That has enabled some children it can also give certainty to carers that they can make to go back home on child protection plans without the their own decisions about parenting, separate from the need for a more radical intervention. The second local authority. It works for a discrete group of lesson is that cases have been better prepared for court children, perhaps those with good continuing relations with an integrated social work assessment so they with their birth families but who cannot live at home, have been able to progress through court more against adoption, which is generally best if the quickly. relationship is non-existent or just cannot be continued positively. Q778 Damian Hinds: We are all stuck to know what to call you: I want to call you “M’Lud”, is that right? Judge Crichton: No, I am on the very bottom branch Q781 Damian Hinds: To the extent that it has been of the tree; I am a jobbing judge. FDAC again is a used for younger children as well, has that been topic I can talk about for hours because it is close to appropriate? It was not the original intention, was it? my heart. It is early intervention in very dysfunctional Anthony Douglas: Generally, the younger the child families, and it is very intensive. It fits quite well with the more appropriate adoption is as the placement of the 26-week aspiration because we work so choice. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas
Q782 Damian Hinds: Do you think that balance has can deal with the pain of the loss is to have another been right in the way special guardianships have been one.” deployed thus far? We have to address the core problems. Now, in some Anthony Douglas: For foster carers, for example, cases they are almost unaddressable, but in some cases with whom the child has been placed short term but more intensive support—we come back to that has gone on and it has been important for the resources—might enable this family to keep this child. child to stay—the child may be four or five—the If this family can keep this child then there might not foster carers themselves may not want to become be another one a year for the next 12 years. So we adoptive parents and may want to be special have terribly difficult balances to strike in identifying guardians. That will still give the child permanency the children who really are at risk and have to be and security. removed and the families where the child can perhaps Judge Crichton: There are two categories where it is be supported and stay there. It is very difficult particularly helpful: where the child can be looked territory for social workers. after within the extended family and where there are cultural oppositions to the concept of adoption. The Q784 Chair: Can I take you back to neglect, if I foster care situation is interesting, because foster may? If the existing statutory definitions of neglect in carers who have become very attached to the child Working Together are clear, are there problems with and want to continue caring for them often cannot gathering enough evidence to bring a neglect case to do so without the financial assistance that a special court? guardianship order can offer them. Judge Crichton: I do not think so. Anthony Douglas: I do not think so. Neglect rarely Q783 Chair: On the subject of the number of takes place in isolation from other forms of abuse. It children taken into care—obviously it is a matter of is covered by Working Together, the welfare checklist always heated debate—internationally, the number we and the court examination. take into care is not that high; Denmark has twice the level that we have. Do you think there is a case that Q785 Damian Hinds: I was just going to ask if you there are more children who would benefit from being believe that the increase in Section 31 cases following taken into care than is currently the case? the case of Peter Connelly—it is difficult to talk about Anthony Douglas: The statistics are not clear, but these things in macro terms, obviously, because each there are probably two to three times the number of one is an individual case—is a catch-up to a more children that there are in care facing the same appropriate level of children in the care system, and therefore expect there to be a permanent increase in difficulties in the community. As of last Friday, the the numbers involved, perhaps closer to some of the numbers of children coming into the care system were international benchmarks the Chairman was talking continuing to increase at record levels. For local about? authorities that are continuing to apply this tougher Anthony Douglas: The evidence base is that after the approach, those numbers will continue to increase, but media storm and initial panic came the intensive as you say, if you take the perspective of do they meet reviewing of existing cases and determined action the threshold, the answer is yes. We must therefore about those to catch up. However, more recent say, for individual children, if they get past the various evidence in the last year is that new cases are being hurdles, checks and balances that is a good thing, and dealt with in a more timely way. Our evidence, which we should continue to be aware of the children who is published on Friday, shows that London is doing are in need of services first but removal second, rather slightly better than many parts of the rest of the than being either left in limbo or desperate situations. country, counter-intuitively—it is always difficult to Local politicians and managers have been very brave get public services right in London. Those boroughs to take some of the steps they have taken. These closest to Haringey have done particularly well. In services are cross-subsidised within local authorities; 2011 we might have said it was a catch-up and things they are not the most politically popular services and have returned to normal, but the record increases in at a time of continuing recession that is going to be a the last year suggest that there is a permanency about bigger and bigger challenge, but I think they are to be this. As Nick says, each case is different, but that does commended for putting children at the top of the give us a big public policy and resourcing challenge agenda. These children are under the radar far too over the next decade. often. Judge Crichton: It is such a difficult balance to strike. Q786 Charlotte Leslie: Very briefly, I just wanted Again, I come back to the drug and alcohol misusing to ask about—I do not like this phrase—older young families: if we just keep removing children, there will people, older children. The Family Justice Review be more children. That is what families do, or is what report recommended that older children be given a lot of families do. At one time I thought it just sort much more of a say and a voice in cases they are of happened that, to fill the void, a mother sought involved in. One thing that has been very apparent comfort when a child was removed and, somehow or through this review is, not unsurprisingly, children other, a child appeared. It is more deliberate than that. want much more of a say in what happens to them Parents shout at me, “Take this one away; I will go and are far more able to contribute to the debate than on having one a year until you let me keep one.” I the system gives them credit for. The Family Justice read a psychiatric report where a mother said, “Every Review report talked about a “menu of options” by time they take a child away from me, the only way I which they might do this: what kind of “menu of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
Ev 146 Education Committee: Evidence
22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas options” do you foresee, and how well do you think older children. I have been amazed by some of our we have the balance at the moment? young people, including those on our Young People’s Judge Crichton: This is another topic that is close to Board, who have said at 15 and 16 that life is my heart. I chair the Voice of the Child sub-committee impossible and they will never get through it, and who of the Family Justice Council. The mechanism we with support—whether from a CAFCASS worker, a have of bringing children’s wishes and feelings to the judge, a safe relative, a leaving care worker—have court is through a CAFCASS officer who provides a turned their lives around by 21 or 22. We now work written report. I think the children who want to meet with 150,000 children a year. As Eileen Munro said, the person who is making an important decision in our system is one that people now come to look at their lives should be given that opportunity. There are with respect and want to put in place themselves. At plenty of children who say, “Make the decision for the heart of it is to spend more and more time me; I don’t want to be part of this.” That is fine: they understanding the voice of the child and its need to understand it is okay to say that. complexity. However, I will nearly always meet with the child Judge Crichton: I just want to add two things. In the who wants to meet with me, unless somebody tells me private law situation of divorce and relationship there is some emotional danger to the child that we breakdown it is a much more difficult exercise talking have to be careful of. That is not the same as a child to children because of the issue of them being giving evidence; it is not a forensic exercise. It is an influenced by one parent or another. One has to be exercise for the child, not for me. I take them through cautious. The other difficulty is—I do not know what the CAFCASS officer has written, and I make it whether Anthony would agree with this—because of clear to them that I cannot have secrets. I see them economic constraints CAFCASS officers find it more separate from their parents and the lawyers, but I difficult to have the time to get to visit the child as make it clear that I have to tell the lawyers what they often as they once did in order to gain the child’s have told me. I make it clear to them that this is my trust and, over a period of time, to reflect the child’s decision, not theirs; I have a lot of things that I have sometimes changing feelings about what is happening to balance; I have rules that I have to apply. Their to them and produce a clearer picture of how the wishes and feelings are very important to me, but I child’s feelings are changing in difficult situations. have to weigh them up against other things. I think kids understand the concept of secrets and Q787 Charlotte Leslie: I was going to ask you, rules very clearly. I am more wary about the forensic Anthony, if I may, about that. I wanted to run this past exercise of children giving evidence; it happens very you: I mentioned before a constituency case. rarely in my court, but it does happen from time to Anthony Douglas: Which I would be very happy to time. It is an overall picture of showing respect to a look at. child, allowing a child to understand the nature of the Charlotte Leslie: That would be very kind. It is going proceedings they are in and decisions that have to be to be retrospective now, but it struck me as very made. All of that is born of the fact that my work with interesting, talking about the amount of time the the Voice of the Child sub-committee where I have CAFCASS officer, the guardian, gets with the child travelled around the country quite a lot, talking to and their ability to see underneath the layers, as it children and young people, is that there is a strong were. The case was such that—as far as I can tell, and feeling or perception that their views have not been it is always difficult to judge these things—the listened to in the process. Sometimes it is just mother, who had been rather manipulative and had perception, and their views have been listened to but broken up the relationship, had, for various reasons, it has not been properly explained to them, and they access to legal aid. So she got herself a lawyer. The have not been given a proper opportunity to play a husband was, as far as I can tell—you cannot make a slightly bigger part in the process of decision-making, judgment—very much an innocent party in this. The if they want to. That is always the caveat. mother was very manipulative and was interfering Anthony Douglas: The process is extremely stressful with the child’s education. The child was saying “I for them, and often they have not really been asked want to go back to dad”; the teacher was saying every very much, if at all, before about how they should live time mum comes to pick him up from school and their lives and choose. Each child will say something every time he is with mum his education stops. The that is absolutely heartfelt, meant and they will go on doctors were saying this is no good at all; he needs to thinking and believing. That is the part you have to be with dad. stay with. Even older children, because chronological The CAFCASS guardian had made an assessment and age is not the same as developmental age, may well felt—I think because there was a lawyer involved and have been coached or unduly influenced by one parent there were a lot of very persuasive things being said— against the other. The professional responsibility we that mum was the one to be with, and mum also had have is to conduct a balancing exercise with wishes a partner who was quite manipulative as well. It has and feelings as well as a needs analysis. taken an awful lot of constituency time, my Because it is so fraught and our work with children is caseworker’s time, to try and unravel this thing, often too brief to be able to get at the depth of what because the judgment of the CAFCASS guardian— they are going through, we will make mistakes. For who I am sure was thinking he was doing the right some children, it is quite clear, go with what they say; thing—was so difficult to go against, since he was the but with the majority you have to go into it and voice of the child. You had situations where there was sometimes protect them against some element of a testament given by the child, which was very parenting they still need protection against, even as contrary to what he was saying to teachers and people cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG08 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o008_th_8 - CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT 22 MAY - (HC 137-ii).xml
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22 May 2012 District Judge Nicholas Crichton and Anthony Douglas who knew him, phrased in the language of someone Q789 Charlotte Leslie: I know you have been doing who was operating within the system. There was a great work with your Young People’s Board, which problem about that. In any good system there are the Government has been looking at. Can you update always rogue cases; how can we make sure that cases us on what mechanisms are being put in place, like this do not arise as frequently? How do you create perhaps, so that we might learn more from it or it a level playing field so that children are able to say might feed into what the Government does with new what they actually think and are not overly influenced national governance regulations? by systems in which they are put and in which they Anthony Douglas: We are using our board as the operate? basis for the family justice system’s Young People’s Anthony Douglas: Three points. I am happy to look Board to try to drive through the changes. They do a at the individual case. There are many cases I could mixture of things: they carry out joint training of staff; point you to in which we have stood out against a they carry out young people’s inspections of services; local authority in particular, and other experts, and, on they carry out mystery shopping exercises to make behalf of the child, got a better deal for the child. We sure that receptionists respond well to children. We are an accountable organisation: our staff are are about to offer those services to the rest of the supervised, managed. But—and there is case law family justice system, including courts, to try to take about this—they are independent of all parties to a the review forward. We are about to embark upon a case and have a responsibility to reach their own recruitment exercise, particularly with younger professional judgment and for that to be on behalf of children, to develop the work still further. the child, respected and submitted to court. The point Judge Crichton: There is another mechanism, and it you are making is true, not just of CAFCASS is called a judge. What we need, as I believe very practitioners but all practitioners in this field. The strongly and have said before, is more professional, explosion of referrals in the last few years has meant full-time, specialist judges doing this work all the that caseloads have increased—sometimes they have time. Then you get more confidence, and with more doubled—in local authorities, in CAFCASS and other confidence comes more competence. That is the organisations, and there is less time per case. We say loudest cry from where I am. that our responsibility is to make sure that every child has a service, rather than the majority of children have Q790 Chair: How many more? a longer service and some have no service at all. With Judge Crichton: I am not in a position to talk that come risks that we miss things. numbers. I have in my court I think 20 colleagues coming in on a rota basis for eight, 10 or 12 weeks a Q788 Charlotte Leslie: Workers, people under year. Some of them are extraordinarily good, but they pressure, make difficult decisions, and as you say, would all be better if they were doing the work more these are risky situations; you are never going to get regularly than eight or 10 weeks a year. They could a situation where everything can be sure and safety is provide continuity, keep cases to themselves and be guaranteed. However, if there was a situation where a able to monitor the progress of cases more efficiently. particular individual again and again had complaints raised about decisions they made—there are always Q791 Chair: What is standing in the way? complications—are there mechanisms to look at the Judge Crichton: The whole system of appointing decisions that individual is making to check that they judges. At the moment judges still only get to do are doing their job well, like in any profession? family law by being criminal judges and then giving Anthony Douglas: Yes. We have a pretty rigorous up a certain amount of their time to it. We need to performance management system and individual staff change that. are performance managed as well as supervised. In Chair: Can I thank both of you very much for giving general our performance, as validated through Ofsted, evidence to us this morning and afternoon? is improving, but it is always best to look at the individual situation. We get cases referred by MPs, parents and so on. We rigorously debrief each complaint or concern. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Ev 148 Education Committee: Evidence
Tuesday 12 June 2012
Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)
Neil Carmichael Damian Hinds Alex Cunningham Ian Mearns Pat Glass Craig Whittaker ______
Examination of Witness
Witness: Tim Loughton MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, gave evidence.
Q791 Chair: Good morning Minister. Thank you had from at least one of your witnesses, rather than very much for joining us and giving evidence to our looking at the whole of the picture, where the vast inquiry into the child protection system in England. majority of children are being protected better by The number of reports of neglect over the last two being taken under the wing of protective services at years has increased exponentially. Are you confident an appropriate time. that children’s services can cope with this increased level of demand? Q793 Chair: That broad picture may be true, but Tim Loughton: Well, there has been an increased where a family has a child taken away and the system level of demand across the board. You will have seen appears always to reinforce early decision-making the Cafcass figures this morning as well, Chair, which against the family’s interest, you can understand how show increased numbers of children coming into care disruptive that can be for families and for children. It proceedings. Neglect is the single biggest cause of is important that we have robust systems, even if it is child protection plans, and you are quite right to say only a very small minority of cases. Do you feel we that has been increasing: it accounts for something have sufficient rigour in the system to ensure that like 42% to 43% of child protection plans. The profile there are not miscarriages of justice? of neglect has been raised as well—we had the recent Tim Loughton: To take up one of your points, you report from Action for Children and other children’s talked about the upheaval for the family. Clearly it is charities, which have been suggesting that we need to a traumatic situation if a child or children within a change the legislation on it. family are taken into care or become the subject of The experience of the last year is that despite the child protection orders or whatever, but the prime increased pressure from numbers, most local concern is doing what is in the best interests of the authorities have safeguarded their safeguarding child. Inevitably, a family whose child is taken into budgets more than virtually any other part of their care will in many cases not think that is the best thing budgets, because they see the sense of continuing to that has happened to that family, but it has to be done invest in good safeguarding and early safeguarding. for good reasons. However—and I think that I have That includes picking up neglect before it turns into raised this with your Committee before—there are abuse, then turns into the child having to come into cases in which the procedures and the decisions are care and all the expensive consequences that roll from questionable. It is a tiny minority out of the hundreds that. The systems are under pressure—there is no of thousands of cases over the last few years of care denying that—but most authorities are being robust in proceedings having been instituted. This is the way they are continuing to treat this as a priority. particularly important when it comes to adoption proceedings and other forms of permanence, where if Q792 Chair: Professor Judith Masson, of the Law we do not get it right the consequences are far- School at the University of Bristol, says, “Research reaching. does not support the view that local authorities bring I am therefore conscious—and it is an area we have proceedings without good reason”. Do you agree? more work to do on—as to what further safeguards Tim Loughton: Yes. There was the “Three Years On” we might be able to institute whereby there is a sort comparison report as well, which showed of appeals mechanism. I am not going to go into too overwhelmingly that the vast majority of care much detail at the moment because this is very much proceedings are brought appropriately, and increasing work in progress, but one has to balance that, because evidence that they are done in a more timely way. any additional checks and balances one might bring There has been quite a big increase in the number of in inevitably will lead to further delay for a permanent interventions that were deemed as being at an solution for that child, and delay—as we have said appropriate time rather than rather late in the day, quite clearly in the reforms we are making to the when an intervention may need to be more intense adoption system—can be very harmful in itself. than it might have been in the first place. I am Therefore, there are further measures we will be therefore satisfied that interventions are being made looking at to make sure we are as robust as possible appropriately. Inevitably, there are cases where there in making sure that we are taking the right decisions. are question marks over the intervention and the However, this is not just a decision that is taken on degree of that intervention, and, alas, it is some of the whim of a social worker. As you know, the those cases that tend to hit the headlines and tend to procedures for a child coming into the care system be the subject of some of the evidence that you have have to be endorsed by the Cafcass guardian, the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP responsible social worker and, of course, the courts Q796 Ian Mearns: Right. Well, I understand that that themselves. It is the judge who makes that final is the case. decision and is bound by all sorts of procedures before Tim Loughton: Where did you read that? he or she can make that determination. Q797 Ian Mearns: A colleague told me last night. Q794 Chair: Thank you. To follow up on your point Tim Loughton: If you want to come and have a chat about timeliness, Judith Masson’s submission to us with me, I will find out about it, but it is news to me. says, “Of the care proceedings brought by the six local Occasionally we have contretemps or full and frank authorities in the Families on the Edge of Care study, exchanges of views with colleagues from the Home only 12% were completed within the six months time Office, as with other Departments. That is not on the limit that has subsequently been proposed by the list of ones that I am having at the moment. Family Justice Review”. Just 12%. “These were care applications brought in 2009Ð10. This indicates the Q798 Ian Mearns: So you have not heard anything very considerable changes that are required for the regarding the Home Office wanting to give successful implementation of the proposed clauses in exemptions to religious organisations to have the Children and Families Bill to be introduced in Criminal Records Bureau checks where they are 2013”. Could you respond to that, please? involved with children? Tim Loughton: I think she is right. It is going to be a Tim Loughton: I personally have not heard anything big challenge. It is absolutely right that we speed up about that. I will make inquiries whether somebody the court processes, just as we need to speed up the else in my Department is having fisticuffs with the various assessment processes, be it in care Home Office. proceedings, adoption or whatever, because it must be in the best interests of the child to know where that Q799 Ian Mearns: If I have been misinformed, I will child’s destination is, and to work to achieve the best be very glad to admit it, and I would prefer that to be transition into that placement. However, we are also the case. Certainly, I think it would be remiss if we seeing some huge variations in performance by local were to give such an exemption to religious authorities in terms of the work that they are organisations, given our recent history with regards to responsible for in bringing the proceedings to court, religious organisations and child protection issues. and huge differentials between different courts Tim Loughton: Without expressing any comment as themselves as to how long they take, whether some to whether you are right or wrong, I will find out what judges are for ever asking for endless expert witness the situation is and come back to you if I have given reports, which cause further delay, whether they are you the wrong information. However, I am absolutely actually adding to the value of the judgment that is not part of any such discussions, and I would know being made, and so on. It is, therefore, going to be a about it, because I am the responsible Minister. big challenge to try to institute the six-month target proceedings that we are intent on doing. Q800 Chair: Especially if you were part of them. We have a lot of discussions going on with colleagues Tim Loughton: Particularly if I am part of them. I in the Ministry of Justice as to how we achieve this, would show you the bruises, or the teeth marks. and consultations with the judiciary itself. However, you only have to look at the successful courts, which Q801 Ian Mearns: The Department very kindly sent do it as a matter of course at the moment, and ask us a draft of the papers on “Working Together to why certain other courts do not. It was interesting to Safeguard Children”, and I see from that that 615,000 note, in the Norgrove review for family justice—we children were referred to children’s social care during 2010 and 2011; 382,000 were assessed by children’s are acting on a lot of those measures—that they social care as being in need; and 168,000 of those travelled to Australia, and one of the things that they children were in need as a result of being, or being were impressed by in Australia is productivity tables likely to be, abused or neglected. I asked the Secretary in each family court in the country, so they can see of State if the Department would do an impact how well they are doing in terms of despatching cases assessment of benefit changes in terms of their impact against other courts. The absolute bottom line is that on the welfare of children and their educational we do not want to sacrifice quality here, but I would prospects. He did not seem to think that it was his suggest that certain courts are making the right department, or that it was necessary. However, given decisions and good-quality judgments in a timely those figures, and given what we know is likely to be fashion, and others are not. Everyone needs to up the impact of such changes in terms of the impact on their game. families because of the stresses of just living, do you think those figures will get any better—or might they Q795 Ian Mearns: Good morning, Minister. I get worse? understand you have been having a bit of a Tim Loughton: I saw the NSPCC ChildLine report contretemps with people from the Home Office about the other day about the increased number of referrals the Criminal Records Bureau checks on religious that they have had, which they linked to the economic organisations. Is that right, or is that not the case? I situation at the moment. Without going into a big understand people in the Home Office want to exempt debate about direct links between the economic religious organisations from Criminal Records situation and abuse towards children, it is no great Bureau checks. science to suggest that economic pressures at the Tim Loughton: That is completely news to me. moment are not making it easier for domestic cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Ev 150 Education Committee: Evidence
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP situations, and that there is a greater likelihood that Q804 Ian Mearns: Professor Munro has found that stress and frustration might manifest themselves progress since her report was published, in her “One in all forms of abuse within that family, including Year On” review. She has concluded that reform needs neglect of the children themselves. I would like to see to move faster. What are you doing in particular to some empirical evidence to show whether or not require local authorities and partner agencies to benefit changes are going to have an impact on that. implement the necessary cultural and systemic However, I would look out to see whether local changes, which the report indicates are urgently children’s services departments and local safeguarding needed? For instance, cultural and systemic changes children boards are seeing evidence that the economic would imply the use of multidisciplinary teams. situation, or other impacts of Government legislation, Tim Loughton: Eileen Munro made a lot of positive is appearing to give rise to greater situations of abuse. comments in her report, and because she is so That is information that we would very much expect passionate about the work that we are doing, she LSCBs to be aware of, gathering and passing on to us wants to see it happen as quickly as possible, as do I. to see whether there is a common pattern that we need Let us just put this into context. This was the first to do something about. However, child abuse is not review the Department commissioned. It was a very something that is limited to people who live in comprehensive review and we gave Professor Munro deprived parts of your constituency, or mine. I am time, space and a blank canvas to do a really thorough afraid that abuse, child sex exploitation or whatever is holistic review of the weaknesses within the child happening across the social piste. Economic protection system. Most people agreed that it was a circumstances can be a contributor, just as they can thoroughly worthwhile report. We did not just say, be particularly with domestic violence, and domestic “Yes, that’s great. We’ll accept your violence is one of the biggest common factors to child recommendations.” I set up, as I reported to this abuse cases as well, so I can see a bit of a knock-on Committee, an implementation panel of experts to see effect that could impact. how we could turn her recommendations into practical applications. That is what we have spent the last Q802 Ian Mearns: Whose duty do you see it as year doing. being to gather that empirical evidence that you think It is not easy, because we are not talking about just we need to find? adding a few hundred pages to the rule manual—we Tim Loughton: We are beefing up the role and the are talking about completely the reverse. We are responsibility of local safeguarding children boards. talking about a change in mindsets. Today we are They are at the hub of all the Munro reforms and other publishing our proposals—and I am sorry for the brief reforms that we are bringing forward at the moment notice that you have been given, but I hope all the around child sex exploitation and missing children. Committee members were given sight of them yesterday out of courtesy so you could discuss that That is the forum where you have got all the major today. The “Working Together” proposals today are a agencies around the table. They have the gravitas and really important part of that. We were hoping that we the position to hold all the different agencies to would have been able to publish them at the same account, to make sure they have got their safeguarding time as Professor Munro’s progress report. It took a policies in place, to make sure they are co-operating little while longer because we have been so radical. and acting together in partnership, to highlight where She welcomes how radical we have been, and her certain sections of that population may be at risk and endorsement comments with the publication today so on. They are duty bound to produce an annual show that. report. We have extended the scope of that annual However, it is about changing mindsets. No longer report—for example, we have extended the remit for will social workers, when they get a case, have to flick who should receive that report. We also now have a through this huge document, which, with its related much more effective network of local safeguarding documents, amounts to 713 pages. They will now children board chairs, which we never had before. have this, which is largely about saying, “You’ve been That is a really valuable forum for bringing together trained, you’ve got the expertise and this is what is all this sort of information, for swapping best practice required of you and partner agencies—now go and get and for informing my Department where there are on with it.” That is a fantastic baton that most social weaknesses. workers are very eager to pick up and run with, but some think, “Are the Government serious? Are they Q803 Ian Mearns: So I take it your Department will, really going to do it?”—today is a really important in that case, collate the information they are getting event to show that we are deadly serious about it— from those local safeguarding boards. while others may be slightly nervous. However, it is Tim Loughton: Yes. We are making it easier, through going to happen and it is happening, and I hope that the network—and I have been holding a series of most social workers will rise to that challenge and meetings with the regional heads of the LSCBs—to get back to being social workers rather than computer collect more qualitative data. We are making sure that operatives working to a highly prescriptive manual, as they are sharing that data locally and passing it on to they have been for too long. us nationally so that we can assess whether there are national emerging trends that we need to be aware of Q805 Ian Mearns: In your earlier answer you talked and whether we need to change guidance, legislation about collating the information coming from and so on. They are one source, but a very important safeguarding boards, and other information that is out source, of collecting and passing on that data. there. Professor Munro has called for an ongoing cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP oversight of the whole system so that progress is Q807 Ian Mearns: For instance, the report that was maintained and encouraged, but I do not think she published in the aftermath of the riots identified 500 sees it as her role to do this. How do you think we problem families. are going to secure that ongoing oversight? Tim Loughton: The figure that the Government have Tim Loughton: Again, as I said when we produced been using is a hard core of about 120,000 families, her review, this is not another review after which many of whom will feature in these figures in terms everyone says, “That is all very good, thank you very of the fact that they have children with child much,” and it goes on a shelf to gather dust. That is protection plans, children on the edge of care, and so why, when we published her review last year, we also on. That work is now being co-ordinated by the said that we would ask her to come back a year on Secretary of State for Communities and Local and produce a progress report. That progress report, Government, with Louise Casey overseeing it. Clearly which is predominantly positive—with some urging we have had a lot of input into it, as does the DWP. us to get on with it and go further, unsurprisingly—is Those families tend to be families who the local quite an important measure. I do not think that Eileen council knows about. They are on their books—“Oh, necessarily wants to be hauled back every year, and it’s the Joneses again”—and if it is not a housing we do not necessarily want to have an annual progress officer going, it is a welfare officer or an educational welfare officer; it is somebody. report. As I say, this is about changing mindsets, and The whole point of the “Troubled Families” project is it is difficult to gauge how we are doing in many to make sure that there is one person there who is the aspects of that. We can go through many of the 15 key worker, who joins all those workers up in a timely recommendations in her report one by one and say, manner, before they become complete basket cases “We’ve done that—that’s about to be published.” and go down a slippery slope. Access to mental health Obviously the big thing today has been published. services, for example—a common feature—is made However, I am constantly going back to these available for little Johnny, because that is behind the recommendations—her report is by my desk—and problem that he is truanting from school; or for mum, seeing how we are coping with that. who needs that early help with depression that may Another innovation that we will have, of course, is lead to greater things. Some parenting classes could that we are literally about to appoint a Chief Social be brought in through the children’s centre, or now Worker. The job of the Chief Social Worker, and now through parenting vouchers, and so on. The “Troubled a viable college, which we may want to go into later, Families” project is therefore about trying to get in is to inform Government, to be the face accountable early with somebody who can identify what we can do to the public around child protection and also very now, and can make sure that we have the professionals much to make sure that progress is continuing to be going in in the right order and at the right time, so made, pointing out weaknesses where we need to go that we can avoid it getting worse later on. further and so on. There are, therefore, a number of What we are trying to do with social workers, with things. If I think in a year or so, if I am still in this those families who are not necessarily on that job, that we need to do a further progress report, then “troubled families” radar, is free up their time away I will be happy to return to that. However, I do not from all the processes so that they can spend more just want a report for the sake of having a report—it time in face-to-face contact with those families, do needs to achieve something. the early help side of Eileen’s recommendations—do everything they can to keep those families together. Q806 Ian Mearns: In “Working Together to We have got to a state, not to caricature it, where for Safeguard Children”—I welcome getting an early too many families the first knock on the door from sight of that, Minister—we have identified some the social worker was effectively the starting gun for statistics in terms of 615,000 children, 380,000 who instituting care proceedings. That contributed to the we are more concerned about and 160,000 who we lack of trust between that vulnerable family and the are much more concerned about, yet we have a social worker, because they thought, “Oh, you’re here to take my child away.” If the first knock on the door Department statistic that says that there are 120,000 from the social worker, working with other agencies, families that we think are in danger and need to be is to say, “We gather that you need a bit of help,” and dealt with in terms of the concerns that we have for they have the time and space to do that because they children within those settings. I understand that those are not now working to highly prescriptive 120,000 families have met five of seven criteria that requirements within “Working Together”, they do not the Department has outlined and are therefore the ones need to have reached various thresholds, but they need with whom we need to have intervention. However, to be showing some early warning signs, so that if we there are many more families who might have met get in early, we can hold it off at the pass, as it were. four or three or two of those criteria. If we are to That is what it is all about. concentrate on early intervention to safeguard children and to make sure that they do not fall foul in terms of Q808 Ian Mearns: I agree entirely that, on a local anything detrimental happening to them, how soon level, pulling those different aspects of service will the intervention be? Have we got to wait for the together so that the family do not have to re-explain family to meet five criteria? their situation on a number of different occasions is Tim Loughton: No. That is a very good point. There absolutely right. However, Professor Munro has also is a lot of overlap here with problem or troubled warned of the dangers of fragmentation. You families—we seem to keep changing the name. mentioned that the Department for Education and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP children’s services are involved, and you also Different authorities are doing it in different ways. I mentioned the DWP and DCLG are getting involved. heard of one authority where the work force actually Is there a danger, in terms of the umbrella overseeing vote for their principal social worker, which is quite this, that something will fall through some significant an interesting way of doing it. That is great. I would cracks between Departments? much prefer to see that sort of local control, Tim Loughton: No. When I appeared here before, I ownership and innovation in how they are going to shared my experience of some of the families that I put somebody in place who will be very effective in saw when I was doing my week being an apprentice performing that role, rather than saying, “Oh, well on social worker up in Stockport. What happens at the page 325 of ‘Working Together’ it says that we have moment is that all those agencies are traipsing in and to do it this way,” which may be less appropriate for out of that house already in an unco-ordinated, un- Haringey than it is for Cornwall, for example. joined-up, highly expensive and largely ineffectual way. This is about making sure that somebody is there Q810 Ian Mearns: Professor Munro wanted to see to say, “This is what we need to do. You do that, you the appointment of such individuals happening. In do that, you do that,” to oversee it and to almost terms of making sure that it has happened, what are literally grab that family by the scruff of the neck and you doing to monitor the situation in a physical way? make sure that they go through various support Tim Loughton: One of the first duties of the Chief mechanisms. Social Worker will be to liaise with all those principal We are also seeing some good examples: in her social workers. We will take advice from whoever we progress report Eileen gave the examples of places appoint as to how he or she wants to engage with like Suffolk and Tower Hamlets. In Suffolk they have those principal social workers. I see principal social their integrated access team, with co-ordinated workers almost as a sort of senate, advising and being agencies working together at an early stage. Through a sounding board for the Chief Social Worker as well, that, they are now diverting about 70% of the cases so there is a clear constituency of people with that were previously dealt with by the child protection positions and expertise locally who can report to the and social care teams, because it has become an Chief Social Worker and say, “This is a problem we’re accelerated emergency. They are saving a lot of seeing in our area,” or, “This is an innovation that’s money through that, interestingly—they say that they been really beneficial in our area.” The Chief Social have saved some £7 million since 2010—so it is good Worker will therefore be an obvious way of joining to do in terms of the effect it is having on the family, up all those people and making sure that they are all but it is also good financially. doing what we need them to be doing. That is why we are also seeing the proliferation of MASH teams, of which I am a big supporter—multi- Q811 Ian Mearns: So in 12 months’ time the Chief agency strategic hubs. I spent some time in the MASH Social Worker will be in place, and that reporting in Haringey recently, and interestingly, there is some mechanism will be there? really good, innovative stuff now happening in Tim Loughton: The Chief Social Worker will be in Haringey after being in the wars for so many years. place well within 12 months—we are conducting final Police, housing officers, and social workers co- interviews tomorrow—and depending on the located. When a case comes in front of them—and I availability of who we appoint, they will be in place have sat in on them—they are very quickly all around within the next few months, though I would love them the table, saying, “What do we know about that? Is to be in place next week if that were possible. I want there a history of domestic violence here? What is the them to hit the ground running and this will be one of housing situation from the next-door borough, where the first agenda items in the initial meeting that Paul they have moved from?” and so on. They very quickly Burstow—as the other responsible Minister—and I compile that information through real people sitting will be having with them. next to each other and talking to each other, and then come up with a very quick action plan: “Right, you Q812 Ian Mearns: The candidates for that post will need to do that—go off and do it.” That can happen at therefore be watching this and knowing that that is an emergency level, or as an early intervention when part of their remit. something is going a bit wrong with that family. That Tim Loughton: They should know that already to has got to be the way to go. have got to the final stage, yes.
Q809 Ian Mearns: In pulling this report together we Q813 Alex Cunningham: Minister, it is good to get have visited Tower Hamlets, Doncaster and York, and the “Working Together” guidance, but of course it seen teams in action in some of those authorities. takes us from one extreme to the other: from a Have most local authorities established the post of massive document—you just referred to page 400- principal child and family social worker now? Has odd—to 21 pages of broad brush strokes. Bearing in that been done? mind that we have a situation where local authorities Tim Loughton: They are in the process of doing it. I have less resource, third-sector organisations have less could point to authorities, such as Cornwall, which are resource, and social workers are facing increasing very much ahead of the curve. There is some really stress as their workloads grow, why are you so innovative practice coming out in Cornwall in convinced that this “Working Together” guidance is intervention. They have a team of principal social going to make an improvement? workers; they have allocated a principal social worker Tim Loughton: For exactly the scenario that you lay to all their regional teams and done it like that. out. As you know, I always make a point, when I visit cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP a local authority, of asking to see practising social Tim Loughton: You’d be surprised. workers without the managers, the bosses or the political leadership hovering around in the Q817 Alex Cunningham: However, what I am background—and I did that exactly again when I interested to know is what difference it will actually visited Peterborough last week. I go out with social make to the safeguarding of children. Will there be workers wherever I can as well. I speak at a lot of more direct contact time as a result of this? Will you social worker conferences and generally just meet a be able to come back, if you are still in this post in lot of social workers. The overwhelming feeling—and two years’ time, and say, “The amount of bureaucracy the complaint, mostly, about the Government—is that in the system has been reduced by 20% or 30%, and there is too much bureaucracy around what they do. this has meant that we have been able to do these The Unison survey, which still holds good to an things to improve the safeguarding of children”? extent, says that they are spending up to 80% of their Tim Loughton: That is absolutely the aim. We are time in front of a computer complying with the freeing up social workers from spending time reading processes, “doing the right thing” rather than “doing the manual and going through highly prescriptive and things right”, as Eileen Munro puts it. That is still very bureaucratic ICS forms—processes that are a problem. gradually being overhauled, I am glad to say. We are producing systems that are much more user friendly Q814 Alex Cunningham: So this guidance is going for the social worker and much more relevant for the to sweep away all that bureaucracy that you are qualitative nature of the intervention that the social referring to—or most of it? worker is making with that family. That has got to be Tim Loughton: Going back to my answer to Ian’s right, and it has been backed up by the way we have questions earlier, it sends out a very clear message overhauled the inspection system through Ofsted as that there is a radical change in approach that requires well. a radical change of mindset. For years and years this has been a prop to social workers. It has also been Q818 Alex Cunningham: Would you care to hazard something behind which poorer social workers can a guess or an estimate as to how much more time hide, and in its extreme can lead to a tragedy through will be released for social workers to do the family the death of a young child in authority being connection stuff? responded to on the basis of, “All my social workers Tim Loughton: No. It is impossible to make that did their job properly and all the proper procedures estimate. were followed, therefore nobody is culpable and nobody is resigning, let alone the director of children’s Q819 Alex Cunningham: If it is 80% now, as services. The fact that a child has died in horrific Unison have suggested, will it be 70%, or 60% in circumstances is a secondary consideration.” That is the future? the crazy thing about it. Tim Loughton: I absolutely do not know. We are talking about a qualitative solution, not a quantitative Q815 Alex Cunningham: Do you think that you are one. One of the reasons that I cannot give you a figure actually reducing the risk in the social care system is because I am not going to say that every local then? Are you removing risk by reducing this authority social worker should now be spending 60% bureaucracy? of his or her time in front of the computer and 40% Tim Loughton: You can never remove risk. At the out on the streets, because we are allowing authorities moment, as Eileen Munro made clear in her evidence and their social workers to develop models of best to your Committee and this hearing as well, practice according to how they think they can do that pretending that you can eliminate risk and promoting job better. a highly risk-averse mentality among your work force Here in the “Working Together” section of the three do not mean that the risk is reduced for the children parts of what we have published today—the 713 pages you are there to protect. I would say that it can having been reduced to under 70—it says quite clearly actually have the unintended consequences of what the statutory duties of social workers and all the complacency—that because the procedures were other partners of this are, what guidance they need to followed it must therefore follow that a child is safer. follow, and what effectively their job is to achieve. That is not true. Children are not protected by how Armed with that, it then says, “Now go out and get many copies of this are published or by how much on with it.” As long as we have properly trained social time is spent in front of a computer. They are workers to do that, we must rely on their professional protected by good-quality, well-motivated, well- judgment to achieve what I am sure they want to trained social workers being at the right place at the achieve and what we need them to achieve. I do not right time, and able and confident enough to make the think that we will ever see a time when we can say right value judgment, which they will occasionally get that everyone is spending— wrong, but they will make it for the best of reasons Chair: Thank you, Minister, that is clear. In the spirit on the evidence available to them, and make the best of the new “Working Together” guidance, can I ask value judgment about the level of intervention at the my colleagues and the Minister for short, sharp right time that should be made. questions and answers?
Q816 Alex Cunningham: I think we agree on that. I Q820 Alex Cunningham: Page 9 of the guidance do not think that there is a soul that would disagree refers to educational establishments having a crucial with you on that. role in identifying welfare concerns. How will you cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Ev 154 Education Committee: Evidence
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP make sure that the autonomous academies and free progress report until she had published the report from schools work in partnership with the local authority her inquiry, and that will feed into our progress report and others, and do not choose to try to solve the so that it is as up-to-date and comprehensive as problem within their own autonomous world? possible. There will therefore be a separate and Tim Loughton: The welfare requirements on discrete piece of work on exactly that subject. academies are no different from those on maintained Chair: Thank you. I am sorry, but we will have to schools. They are under the same duties and move on. obligations towards the welfare of their pupils as any school that remains directly within the local Q825 Neil Carmichael: Tim, Professor Munro has authority’s remit. Why would they not want to make been talking quite a lot about agencies working sure that the welfare of their children is paramount as together more effectively, which brings us on to the well? Education is a key player on local safeguarding health reforms. The new structure has to be able to be children boards. I want academy heads to be among dovetailed in with related agencies. She said, the representatives on those boards, just as much as “Government should work collaboratively with the heads of maintained schools or whatever. Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of General Practitioners, local Q821 Chair: Are you specifically doing something authorities and others to research the impact of health about getting teachers from academies onto local reorganisation on effective partnership arrangements”, safeguarding children boards? which I think is a perfectly reasonable note to make. Tim Loughton: Again, we are not going to specify In response, the Government have talked about a that we must have a token academy head on each co-produced work programme, which is quite right LSCB. It is up to the LSCBs to encourage full too. My first real question is, how is that getting on? engagement for the educational providers in their area, Tim Loughton: The common feature around be they maintained, academies, or all sorts of other safeguarding questions is inevitably health, and schools as well. Local authorities will do it differently. whether health is a fully participating partner in Some of them have lots of academies, while others safeguarding. I have said many times before—and in have none. Again, we are not being prescriptive, but front of your Committee, Chair, as well—that there they know, under that, that they need to step up to the appear to be more question marks about the reluctance mark and what the duties on them are. of health to fully participate in safeguarding, as it stands now. I have given lots of examples about how Q822 Chair: The documentation we have seen GPs in particular are not as engaged as they need to appears to have a bit of a gap, because there is no be. I am particularly concerned about procedures mention of greater support for services that are within A&E departments, when you get a three year- working together to address the needs of children old child who turns up at 9 o’clock on Friday night trafficked for sex or other forms of exploitation. Why with unexplained injuries, as to how the paediatrician is that not a headline issue? can then link into children’s social care to get Tim Loughton: That is the subject of a separate bit of information on whether there is form, and so on. work, and of course it is work with the Home Office, There are problems now, and that problem has not which takes the lead on trafficked children. My been solved by having a huge great manual. Big colleague Sarah Teather and I are also doing work on changes are coming up in the health service. It is that with the Home Office. The further work that we absolutely essential that, at this early stage, are doing on missing children also relates to that. I safeguarding is not some add-on to those changes but will be making a speech on that next week and we are is absolutely mainstream and essential to them. That producing a further progress report on it. It is all part is why, when Eileen Munro produced her report, the of separate work. implementation committee that I set up, which included lots of practitioners, included three people Q823 Alex Cunningham: I look forward to that, from health—more than any other sector—including Minister, but there is an APPG inquiry, which I know the Health Minister herself, Anne Milton. Anne and I you are aware of, into the issues around trafficked have been working very closely on this whole children, some of whom find their way back to their safeguarding issue, and I have officials from my traffickers because the services are not quite right. I Department working with officials from Health on think they will publish that within the next few days. safeguarding. Tim Loughton: It will be next week Various things have happened. We are about to set out the accountabilities framework for safeguarding in the Q824 Alex Cunningham: I wonder what you are NHS. This work has been led by the Chief Nursing doing to address those sorts of issue, because the level Officer, and it will say some things quite clearly about of service and support that is available to such young what is expected of health. A children and young people is inconsistent. people’s health outcomes forum was set up in January Tim Loughton: I gave evidence to Ann Coffey’s of this year to provide independent advice to inform a inquiry, which is the all-party group you are referring children and young people’s health outcomes strategy. to, and they are producing their report next week. I Under the “Working Together” statutory guidance said that we have an updated progress report to published today, there was a requirement that each publish on work that we have done jointly with the primary care trust identifies a senior paediatrician and Home Office. When I gave evidence to her inquiry senior nurse to undertake the role of designated last month, I said that we would delay publishing our professional for safeguarding—it is quite clearly set cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP out there. From April next year, the statutory duty on Q827 Neil Carmichael: Thank you. Do you agree NHS bodies under section 11 of the Children Act 2004 with the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child to make arrangements to safeguard and promote the Health that there should be, as they call it, a duty of welfare of children will transfer from the PCTs and early help on health agencies to ensure child the strategic health authorities to the clinical protection? commissioning groups and the NHS commissioning Tim Loughton: There was a recommendation from boards. In order to be authorised by the NHS Eileen Munro about early help, and it was a very commissioning boards to operate from April of next useful area of her report. We looked at this carefully year, clinical commissioning groups will be required and we decided that it does not require an additional to demonstrate that they have established appropriate duty. There are duties on all partner agencies to co- systems for safeguarding and secured the expertise of operate to improve children’s wellbeing under section designated professionals. There is, therefore, a whole 10 of the Children Act 2004 anyway, so the duty is series of conditions at the heart of the health reforms already there in the legislation. As is so often the case, that must be complied with, and that have what we need to happen is for that duty to become a safeguarding stamped all over them. reality, and to make sure that all the relevant partners have their feet held to the fire to make sure that they Q826 Neil Carmichael: Thank you very much, are doing it. LSCBs are one of the means of making sure that everybody is stepping up to the mark. I because you have answered my next two questions as therefore do not agree that there should be a duty, but well, which is very impressive, though I have two or I do agree that certain partners need to take three more questions. One of them is on the role of interpretation of that duty rather more seriously than the commissioning groups. How do you see them some have. taking hold of the need for child protection? Can you be sure that they will do their job properly, given your Q828 Neil Carmichael: Would you see that coming own interests? through a revised “Working Together” guidance? Tim Loughton: As I have said, in those various things Tim Loughton: We have revised the “Working that we have set out, they are going to have to have Together” guidance today, and we will not be highly to show that they have safeguarding at the heart of prescriptive on what early help looks like. This is for what they do, otherwise they will not be legitimate. good innovation of local authorities, to see how early However, there are a number of other things that I help can manifest itself locally. I have given those think are going to happen. I place great store by joint examples of Suffolk’s integrated access team and what agency training. One of the best practical ways of you saw in Tower Hamlets, with their multi-agency achieving co-operation between agencies is putting integrated pathway, as I think they call it, which health people in the same room and training them from the is absolutely an important part of. I also see the use same manual in the same way, using the same of health visitors and the 4,200 additional health language. There are some good examples of CPD visitors that the Government is committed to recruit centres around the country, where you can go and see in the lifetime of this Parliament as early help, but a health visitor sitting next to a teacher, next to a GP, also as an early warning device as well. There, you next to a social worker, next to a police officer, all have somebody who is more welcomed into a being trained in safeguarding measures. That is one of household, unlike a social worker, who may be treated the most effective ways you can make sure that you with suspicion, who can do an assessment of, “Is this achieve co-operation. Everybody knows what is new parent really on top of the situation? What expected of them and what language they talk, so that additional help may they need?”, but also, “Is there a when they need to leap into action on a real-life case safeguarding issue?” They are an extra pair of eyes they have that advantage as well. The expansion of and ears around that as well. Therefore, there are a lot MASHs, where health needs to be a partner and where of opportunities for this already to happen—and it will there can be some co-location with health, is an be happening more—without saying, “Now there is important part of that too. The emergence of the an additional duty to do it.” It is not the legislation public health and wellbeing boards will also be very that is getting in the way of people making children significant here. There is a real opportunity here. safer. If anything, it is the reverse: it is the Putting aside the controversy over health reforms, one proliferation of literature and guidance around that really exciting opportunity particularly comes from legislation that has got in the way of them doing it. the public health and wellbeing boards, as we can use those boards to have children’s social care workers or Q829 Chair: The Royal College of Paediatrics and teenage health workers alongside GPs, social workers Child Health have said in their evidence to us that: and others, making sure that dangerous behaviours “Our members are clear that they simply do not have can be avoided, that young families are safe and have enough allocated time, that they are covering huge the parenting skills, and that we are promoting public child populations, that they do not have sufficient health measures on a local basis. That is where that training, that they struggle to access decision-makers can really make a difference, bringing all those at a local level, and that, ultimately, this means they different agents together and seeing the practical are not fulfilling their duties effectively”. That is ramifications of that. There is, therefore, a whole pretty strong stuff from the Royal College. Do you number of things that, if we get it right, can make a agree with them that it is true and, if so, what is going significant difference. to happen to change it? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Ev 156 Education Committee: Evidence
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP
Tim Loughton: The duties are there within the 2004 as well. I have had a lot of contact with CEOP, Act. They absolutely know what is expected of them, particularly through the Child Sexual Exploitation and that is made even more clear in the “Working Action Plan and work we are doing there. The Home Together” guidance today. They need to do what is Office may technically be the lead, but it is a joint expected of them and, if there are specific things that interest between our two Departments. are preventing them from fulfilling that duty— Q832 Chair: If the Prime Minister moved it from the Q830 Chair: Time, caseload, lack of training, lack of Home Office to your responsibility, would you be sad access to decision-makers—that is what they have or delighted? said, so what are you going to do about those things? Tim Loughton: I would always be delighted if the Tim Loughton: I specifically am not in a position to Prime Minister were to express confidence in me to do something about that, because it is the want me to take on greater responsibilities, but I am responsibility of the Department of Health. I have set not interested in the niceties of which Minister has out a list of things, including the new guidance jointly this added to his brief or not. I am interested in, with Health that will be published shortly around their practically, how we can make it work best. I have responsibilities, which will make it even clearer what a good working relationship with Damian Green, as is expected of them. It is up to the local health Immigration Minister, in particular. He has an commissioners and local health bodies to make sure understanding of this. We have organisations like that they are not spending too much time on other Barnardo’s that have taken on some of the roles from things and missing out on safeguarding, because this the Home Office, which I work very closely with. has got to be at the heart of what they are doing, not They report to me on this and a number of other an add-on. Health has to look to its own house to issues, and I trust their judgment as well. If there were make sure it is fulfilling its duties and doing what is serious problems, they would tell me about it. required of it. That is the problem we have got and have had for some time before the health reforms, and Q833 Neil Carmichael: I do not think it is it needs to be sorted as the new architecture within necessarily a question of moving responsibilities from the health service comes through too. That is why I Department to Department, providing, of course, those have set out the list of things we are doing jointly responsibilities are properly covered. In your case and with Health to make sure everybody knows what is all other cases, I am sure they are under the coalition expected of them. Government. The question is really more the one that The health visitors, again, I think will help, though it keeps being raised during this inquiry: are agencies has taken some time to recruit them, because they do able and willing to work together easily? Do you think not grow on trees. I know there has been frustration that we have the culture changes necessary to bring about the time it is taking to find them, but as we said, that about? Do you think that we have enough time to Chair, if you do this right, it saves the time of those make a real difference? professionals, let alone money, further down the field, Tim Loughton: I am seeing really enthusiastic because it does not become an emergency or a case evidence of agencies more than ever before working requiring more intensive and more expensive help. together in practice. Joint working, joined-up Most children’s services departments have woken up Government—whatever—has been a great buzz to that and are doing some good preventive stuff. phrase for years; in practice, it just was not happening. Health really needs to get with the programme as well. Joint training and co-location are essential to that. Another important point here is joint inspection. We Q831 Neil Carmichael: Moving away from the have overhauled the way Ofsted inspect children’s Department of Health towards the Home Office, it, of social care, and those new procedures came in from course, is responsible for trafficking, illegal May of this year. As from June of next year, there are immigration, forced marriages and so on. What we going to be joint agency inspections too. I had in my have heard thus far on this Committee is, quite often, office all the six or seven different inspectorates— children in difficult and dangerous circumstances are Ofsted, Health, police, probation and so on. dealt with by the Home Office, either through Apparently, they had not come together like that ever, Immigration or through the criminal justice system, or certainly for a long time. I said to them, “I am and that has led to outcomes or processes that we always getting complaints from local authorities that might be concerned about. Do you think it is a matter they have just had Ofsted in. In a few weeks’ time for your Department to deal with children in those they have Health coming in to inspect similar things, circumstances, or should it remain with the Home then the constabulary is coming in and there is an Office? awful lot of overlap.” They agreed and, amazingly, Tim Loughton: The lead role is for the Home Office. came up and said, “Yes, we can make some progress It is something I am very concerned with. There on having some joint inspections.” There are all sorts cannot be a body of children who are suffering some of technical difficulties as to why you cannot just have of the problems that children who are not asylum- one person doing it for all of them, but in future we seeking immigrants are suffering, but who are labelled are going to have joint agency inspections. The differently and who we do not have an interest in. Of advantage of that is when you are inspecting Health, course we do. Sarah Teather and I have both been somebody from a social-worker background through having meetings with Damian Green at the Home Ofsted or somebody from the police can ask different Office to see how we can better look after these sorts of question in a different way to make them more children. It is also police matters: we work with CEOP accountable than Health asking Health or Ofsted cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 157
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP asking children’s social care and education. That is around the LSCB table to make sure that they are not where it makes a difference. just trying to bump the problem on to somebody else. Chair: Thank you, Minister. I hate to cut you off on That is why LSCBs are so crucial, as I said earlier. rich and full answers, which I appreciate, but we have to move on, I am afraid. Q837 Craig Whittaker: BASW wrote in a report recently that social workers have got “dangerously Q834 Craig Whittaker: Good morning, Minister. high” caseloads. Are you content for them to carry on Are you satisfied that children’s social care services with this level of risk? I know from my own local are not turning children away because resource is such authority, when I was lead member, one of the huge a big constraint on capacity? problems we had was around social workers and Tim Loughton: Can you explain that question a bit? their caseloads. Do you think they are avoiding taking people into Tim Loughton: Caseloads are important. They are not care proceedings? the be all and end all. You might have quizzed me at an earlier investigation, Chair, about what the ideal Q835 Craig Whittaker: It is not about avoiding. caseload is for a social worker. The fact is that there There is such a great range of thresholds for is not an ideal amount, because different cases have intervention across the country. If you look at what is different requirements on them. happening in London, for example, the thresholds are very high. This Committee has heard that one of the Q838 Chair: BASW have said that caseloads are reasons why other agencies—for example, teachers— “dangerously high”. Regardless of what number you find it difficult to get referrals is because they feel that think is appropriate, here is the British Association the thresholds are far too high. of Social Workers saying it is “dangerously high” in Tim Loughton: Again, there is a greater awareness many cases. now that, if you fail to intervene at the appropriate Tim Loughton: The Chief Executive of BASW may stage, that child does not disappear under a stone and have chosen the language of “dangerously high”. In the problem goes away; rather, the problem most many cases, it is undesirably high, and that is why it is likely gets worse and that child will present in a absolutely crucial that we make sure that what social different environment with more extreme problems worker time we have at the moment is used on the later on. It is therefore a false economy just to keep important things rather than on the paperwork, which raising the bar expecting the problem to go away. is why today’s publication is crucial. Even if the Some of the examples I have quoted around early caseload level stayed at what it is now, the resources help—and, in fact, the “Three Years On” report and stayed at what they are now and the number of social evidence from Cafcass—show that the timeliness of workers stayed what they are now, when these interventions has improved considerably as well. It is changes take effect, those social workers should have not just whether we are making appropriate more time to spend on the qualitative side of the interventions, but we are also doing it at a better time. caseload that they have got. That is what I am trying That might be manifesting itself as well in the fact to achieve. that there has been quite a rise in middle teenagers coming into care, who might in the past not have Q839 Craig Whittaker: Sorry for interrupting, but come into care until later on or at all. I do not see you have mentioned Cafcass this morning. It is very evidence that people are being deliberately ignored. clear from the evidence that the caseload in regards to courts is increasing dramatically and has been over Q836 Craig Whittaker: That was not the question. time. Social workers are required to spend more and The thresholds for intervention are wildly variable more time on casework in that, so is that not around the country, and we have very strong evidence counterbalancing what you are trying to do with the on the Committee that suggests that there is a huge other stuff? Is that not actually creating more frustration out there, particularly from teachers—and bureaucracy? Going back to the initial question about obviously teachers are dealing with children on a daily seriously and dangerously high risk associated with basis—that they just cannot get the referrals through. the caseloads that these social workers have, is it not There is a big fear that children are being totally a real contradiction in terms? missed. I understand the theory behind everything you Tim Loughton: More work is coming in because an are trying to do, but the reality of what is happening increasing number of children are coming into the on the ground is very, very different. care system. Those figures confirm that today— Tim Loughton: I see your point. There is a good deal nobody would deny that. There have been particular of truth in that. Certainly, from experience of my own pressures on Cafcass and, to give Cafcass their due, schools, there is a concern among many schools that, they have had to reform themselves and their in some cases, schools are being treated as surrogate procedures at a difficult time of mounting workload. social services, in addition to all the other They have achieved considerable progress at Cafcass responsibilities that they have. That is not helpful. If in terms of the huge reduction in cases that had not that is the case in certain circumstances—and I am been allocated guardians and how swiftly they process not denying that may well happen—it is down to the some of those cases now. They have been able to LSCB to ask those challenging questions. If there is cope—not easily, but they have been able to cope— evidence in a certain area that children are not being with that increased workload. If there is an inexorable, picked up by the most appropriate agency sooner, then continued rise in children continuing to come into those questions need to be asked of those partners care, then we have got to ask questions as to whether cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Ev 158 Education Committee: Evidence
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP they can sustainably continue to cope with that. Those practice? If so, are you aware of how many local pressures are on social workers in local authorities as authorities are going down that route? well, but there are also huge differentials in the Tim Loughton: The answer is absolutely yes. As I number of kids who come on to the radar of children’s said earlier, I think this is the way to go. I should have services departments from one authority to another. finished off on the last question by saying that what What I am trying to do is to make sure that, even we are doing should also be seen in the context of with an increasing number of children coming into the social-work reform, so the standard of people coming remit of children’s services, they have more time to into the profession, the way they are being trained, spend on the important parts of how they need to deal what the College is now doing and what the Chief with them, rather than on the unimportant parts of Social Worker will be doing is going to help social how they deal with them, which has been the workers be more effective as well. bureaucracy that does not add to the quality of the The MASH teams—they are called different things in intervention they give. different parts of the country—originated in Devon. I went to see it many years ago when it was achieving Q840 Craig Whittaker: Let me follow that up, then. great things in Devon. I spoke at a conference of Is, therefore, the massive increase in caseload for London authorities a few months ago, which was all social workers being offset by what you are trying to about promoting the MASH model across London do? In effect, what is happening is the bureaucracy is authorities. Disproportionately, London authorities are not reducing at all because the caseload is increasing already doing that and they are seeing great gains for dramatically. it. I would expect to see a version of MASH operating Tim Loughton: Is it a nil-sum game, effectively? in most local authorities around the country before long anyway, simply because it is the most effective Q841 Craig Whittaker: Absolutely. They are way of getting those partners to work together quickly spending more and more time having to prepare cases and efficiently. for court and all those things that are associated with that. All we are doing is tinkering rather than having Q843 Pat Glass: Thank you. I speak from experience real reform. here: one of the biggest barriers to good decision- Tim Loughton: What we are trying to do is not as a making is sharing of information and the lack of result of the increasing caseloads that are coming now. consistent approach that there is across local We are trying to do this because we feel that the child authorities and across agencies about what protection system has become overly reliant on information can legally be shared. I am principally process. It is risk-averse, and that is undermining the talking about Health here, because they are usually quality of the job that social workers do. It so happens the greatest offenders. What is the Department doing? that we are undertaking that reform process at a time, What are the Department’s plans or what can the post-Baby P, of mounting caseloads for social workers Department do to improve this? My experience is that to deal with. That makes it even more important that each local authority area is finding its own salvation we achieve what we are trying to achieve as soon as in its own way, so what is seen as appropriate possible. I want to see the caseloads plateau and then information to share in one area is not shared in start to decline. They are doing that, not because we others. are missing cases but because we are picking up cases. Tim Loughton: I think you are right. It is a Part of the reason for this is we are picking up cases depressingly common feature of serious case reviews now that, at the time of Baby P, were not being picked and reports when things go wrong that information up and were leading to worse events down the line. I was not shared. It is a more depressingly common want it to decline because we are also doing better on feature that information was available to be shared early help and we are doing better with those troubled and was not, or, even where it was shared, was not families and so on, so that the number of kids acted on. It is not a simple question of the information presenting to a social worker, who are going on to a not being out there; it is much more important that child protection plan, for whom care proceedings need somebody then joins it together, picks up the ball and to be instituted and so on will be fewer. That is what runs with it. MASHs can do that. When I was sitting we are trying to achieve. I think we can achieve it in on the one in Haringey, everybody was literally because there is more quality time for that social convened around a big table and they got the domestic worker to be able to do a better assessment earlier of violence history, the housing history, whether the child what actually is needed for that child and a better had been truanting and so on, put it together very chance of them making the right decision, which will quickly and then decided, “Right, you need to act on reduce their workload but result in a better outcome that. This is the course of action.” That information for that family. could be shared like that. When you look into it, there are not legislative Q842 Pat Glass: Good morning, Minister. You talked grounds or even data-protection grounds for why data very positively earlier about what you had seen at is not being shared. It is usually some process Haringey, where they have brought together integrated somewhere that is standing in the way of it. There is teams of social care and other partners, including the an example, which we are working on now—this police, in a front-door service. We saw some of that came up in the evidence I gave to Ann Coffey—about when we visited Doncaster, York and Tower Hamlets. sharing of information between police, local Do you see that kind of integrated team leading to authorities and Ofsted about the location of children’s better decisions and, therefore, becoming best homes, for example. As regards missing children, we cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 159
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP seem to have two sets of data: data that we collect careful, every time I am talking about children in care through local authorities, and data that the police and adoption, to say that, as far as our approach is collect about missing children. They are hugely concerned, there is no hierarchy of solutions for different figures, which is nonsense. I want to achieve children who come into the care system. It is purely, one data collection set and I want to make sure that as you say, what is most appropriate for that child. the police are equally in the picture with data that the There are 65,500 children in care in England at the local authority has got. The same should apply for moment. Last year, only 3,050 of them were adopted. Health as well. We need to make sure that applies Even if the adoption numbers were to double in A&E wards, so paediatricians can access the local magically, it would still be fewer than 10% of the authority’s data on a child to see if there is form with children in the care system. We need to make sure that domestic violence or whatever in that family. I also we are doing as much as possible for all those other think that GPs need to have better protocols as to how children who will be in long term foster care or they share that information. residential homes, under special guardianship orders If I go and visit GPs, I will ask them, “What would and so on. you do if a three-year-old child turned up at your It so happens that we have done an awful lot around surgery with a mum you do not know well and has got children in care. The fostering regulations were the some suspicious injuries?” It is interesting that you get first regulations I overhauled in the guidance last year. lots of different answers as to what they would do The Foster Carers’ Charter was the first to be launched about it. The sensible GPs usually say, “He goes to of the set of four charters we are launching. There has such and such a nursery. I will ring up the head of the been preferential treatment for children in care in the nursery”—or the school or whatever—“and have an education system, which both I and the Secretary of informal chat.” If they are both saying, “It is State are very wedded to: they all qualify for the early interesting you should say that because I noticed some years offer; they all qualify for pupil premium; they things as well,” they escalate it to the social worker, all qualify for the EMA replacement; and they all saying, “You need to have a look.” Those are good, qualify for the junior ISA alternative we have common sense procedures. They do not let this get in announced as well. That is all preferential stuff for the way of having a sensible chat about what may children in the care system, only a small number of need to be done to a child. whom will end up getting adopted. The simple truth is that the decline in the use of Q844 Pat Glass: Is there any work specifically going adoption, and the huge disparities between local on with Health? At the practical, professional level, authorities in how important adoption was for their it is Health that is very often the barrier—not A&E children, meant that rather more forceful and urgent consultants being able to get hold of local authority action was required on adoption, which is why the information, but local authorities, social workers and adoption action plan, scorecards and everything else the police being able to get hold of Health data. have perhaps had a higher profile. That does not mean Tim Loughton: Yes. That part of the discussions and that they are in some way preferable to other forms of arrangements, of which there are more to come out care that are more appropriate for a particular child. I shortly. There will be more information on those want to see more children adopted because I think it protocols. Again, it is not saying that it has to be is the best form of permanence for more children than done— are adopted now, and I want to see them adopted in a Pat Glass: This way, but it has to be done. more timely manner, not compromising the quality of Tim Loughton: This precise way everywhere in the that adoption placement. That is what we are country, but there should not be barriers between determined to achieve. Health sharing information with children’s services Chair: Thank you. We have a great deal more to try and so on. to get through in not many minutes, so if I could ask the Minister in particular to shorten his answers, that Q845 Pat Glass: I look forward to seeing that. would be great. Damian. Thank you. Tim Loughton: So do I. Q847 Damian Hinds: We will all show restraint, Chair. Good morning, Minister. You will have seen Q846 Pat Glass: Finally, the Government has talked the NSPCC prevalence study last year, which had a lot about adoption, and there has certainly been a some quite startling numbers in it about the lot of press coverage of the Government’s plans and prevalence of neglect: 3.7% of under-11s and almost concerns around adoption. Little has been said around one in 10 of the teenage group having suffered severe things like special guardianships, long-term foster care neglect at some point during childhood. Do those arrangements or residential arrangements. Is this numbers sound right to you? Do you think the way because the Government sees adoption as the most that we measure these things is adequate? permanent long-term solution for most children? As I Tim Loughton: It is a good point. Again, we have the suspect you are going to say, there will be different dilemma here of, has there been a big rise in children arrangements for different children to suit their being neglected or have we got better at detecting it? situations. Is the focus on adoption not running the I think a large part of it is down to the latter. That is risk of driving local authorities and social workers to a success story. The emphasis on early help within the look at that as the only option? Munro proposals may mean that those neglect figures, Tim Loughton: You make a fair point that is made by or the proportion of neglect figures, continue to rise. several people, but the answer to it is no. I am very That is not necessarily a bad thing if it means we are cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Ev 160 Education Committee: Evidence
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP identifying them and acting on them early. As I said understanding in your child. Schools have a duty to earlier, 42.5% of children on child protection plans are develop that as well. If a parent does not know the there through neglect, so it is the single most difference between right and wrong, or understand significant factor behind child protection plans. what neglect is, there is a greater chance that they may be neglecting that child. If a parent does understand Q848 Damian Hinds: I suppose there is a third what neglect is and is still neglecting that child, then possible explanation as well, which is that neglect can probably they are more culpable and they need to be be used as a catch-all term for other types of abuse dealt with more rigorously than somebody who is not that are not so easy to identify and they get conflated. aware that they are inadequately dealing with their Do you think that happens? children. That is why early help and making sure we Tim Loughton: That may be the case, but child have appropriate support are important, which may protection cases are usually complex and it is not just require some pretty fundamental parenting skills and down to one factor. There is a whole host of dynamics parenting classes. That is why the Government’s going on within a family and it just happens that announcement about parenting vouchers, and getting neglect appears to be the most appropriate tag to put access to those sorts of support mechanisms through on a child, but there may well be some physical abuse children’s centres, is quite important. Health visitors that is lurking behind it as well. Actually, that will also be an early monitor of whether new parents diagnosis may change. A child may come on to the in particular have sufficient skills to be able to look radar for neglect, but when more work is done, there after a newborn child. is a much bigger, deep-seated problem around mental health and domestic violence or whatever. It can be a Q851 Damian Hinds: Anecdotally, where there is changing picture. household or domestic violence present, a lot of local authorities seem to semi-automatically decide that the Q849 Damian Hinds: Do you think Action for abused partner is guilty of neglect or of failing to Children are right about the 1933 criminal definition protect the child or failing to shield the child from the and the need to update it, especially with regard to the experience of witnessing domestic violence. Do you psychological and emotional aspects, or, as a judge think it is appropriate in those cases to do that and to said to our inquiry a couple of weeks ago, will we describe that as neglect, when there is quite a lot of be creating a great deal of extra work for lawyers in evidence that abused partners in domestic violence so doing? cases do and can parent very well when given the Tim Loughton: I agree with Nick Crichton, who gave appropriate support? testimony to you; he is an excellent family judge. Tim Loughton: Yes. I would be very cautious about When Action for Children came up with their report, the victims of domestic violence being labelled as we looked into this, and the overwhelming view was neglectful of their children as well. The thing that that the law is not being interpreted in a 1933 fashion. struck me more than anything when I spent my time The way the law operates in courts is fit for purpose as a social worker in Stockport was just how many— in 2012. So, on the face of it, it would be a charter and I certainly was aware of it but not the extent of for lawyers to look at the law, and I am not in the it—cases of child abuse had domestic violence as a business of changing legislation for the sake of it. common theme. They did it very well in Stockport by One other thing I should say, Chair, is that as we having a very experienced domestic violence speak, live on the Department for Education website, specialist social worker as a core part of their among other things, is a neglect training pack and a safeguarding team. Her knowledge and experience as series of YouTube clips and other aids, which have to how to deal with a difficult domestic violence been developed by Action for Children, the University situation where, clearly, the victim parent needed of Stirling and ourselves to help social workers and some serious support and did not need to be labelled other practitioners identify and then deal with neglect and only compound the problem was absolutely as well, so we have developed some practical tools invaluable. Domestic violence is hugely complicated. on this. Some of the work the Home Office is doing and some of the pilot schemes we have done on domestic Q850 Damian Hinds: Do you think parents in violence are also very valuable as to how they feed general understand the concept of neglect? There is a into safeguarding practice. case put that, if one focuses all the time on neglect and what the absence of good parenting is, it is not as Q852 Chair: The Royal College of Paediatrics and good as putting forward a positive picture of what Child Health said there were five broad categories of good or adequate parenting is. Do you think there is neglect: emotional, medical, nutritional, physical and a case for doing that in England? educational. Would you add a sixth—“moral neglect”? Tim Loughton: It is a very interesting issue. I was Tim Loughton: I do not want to get involved in that talking to a journalist yesterday who has written a argument now. We could be here all day and that story today, whereby there is some reference to moral would be the headline of the inquiry. I think there values around parenting skills, which he has decided are enough forms of neglect to be going on with for to write a story about in the context of working the moment. together, which is a quite interesting spin on the whole Chair: Well ducked. thing. I tried to explain that I think one aspect of good parenting is knowing the difference between right and Q853 Pat Glass: Minister, before I move on to older wrong and instilling that knowledge and that children, which is a particular focus of the inquiry, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 161
12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP can I just follow on from what Damian was saying and over has actually risen. To give you the figures, about the way in which neglect in domestic violence in 2007 there were 11,810 looked-after children aged is handled in the courts and the way in which the 16 and over and, as at 2011, it had risen to 13,860. courts can say that a person who is deemed to be Overall, obviously the number of children in care has incapable of living with their child because they are risen, but in 2007 it was 20%, and in 2011 it was 21%. too violent still has the right to have access to those children? I have a case in my constituency where a Q856 Pat Glass: Can I just clarify, Minister: are young woman moved to the North-East following a these children who are in care at 16 or over, or are particularly awful case, where she was raped and these children who went into care? beaten so badly that she was in hospital for several Tim Loughton: No, that is the complexion of the care months. The perpetrator is now serving a long population as at those dates. I think there has also sentence, but is using the courts to continue to harass been an increase in the number of middle teenagers that young woman because he is demanding access to coming into care. I would ascribe that partly to the children who were downstairs in the house at the time fact that those teenagers are being picked up earlier, when the offence took place. That is clearly something who might not have been before. There is also the that has come through in our inquiry. We are being Southwark judgment, which has had an influence on told and given evidence very clearly that the courts all of these, where some of those 16 to 17-year-olds are operating separately from those people— who are deemed to be homeless and in need should professionals, like the teams we talked about earlier— be supported as children in care as well. That has who are making appropriate decisions about a child’s obviously had an influence on these figures. I would future. Is that something that would concern you? Is like to see more empirical evidence suggesting that there some way in which we can liaise with the there is a problem here that older children are not Ministry of Justice around what is in the best interests being given the care and support they need because of of those children in those very severe cases of their age. It may be a problem, but the statistics that I domestic violence? have are not necessarily bearing that out now. Tim Loughton: Yes. That is a very fair point. I think most of us will have seen some pretty worrying Q857 Pat Glass: Thank you. It has been some time constituency cases where there is such deep-seated since I looked at it, but some years ago the number of domestic violence and the child has been privy to that serious case reviews had fallen substantially in what as well, which is very traumatic, and one would be we would classify as the middle years—those children very worried about a parent continuing to have access who are in school from nursery to, say, year eight— to a child. and those children who were at greatest risk were those children below school level and those over 14. Q854 Pat Glass: I am told it is not unique at all. The evidence that we have had is that specific areas of Tim Loughton: No. Tomorrow, we are announcing a abuse—things like honour killings, trafficked children consultation on shared parenting. In fact, I shall be and sexual exploitation—are a major issue, as Ofsted appearing in front of another Select Committee, just have identified, in children over 14. Yet what we are to make my week very enjoyable. Where there are told in evidence is that the two main concerns that welfare concerns, then that must be a serious factor in professionals have are that young people, particularly the continuing access of a non-resident parent. in relation to sexual exploitation, do not necessarily Domestic violence absolutely must be a consideration recognise this as abuse, and that, when it is presented in that. These are the sorts of conversation I have been to professionals, and particularly to the police, having with Jonathan Djanogly at the Ministry of children are not believed or the police do not have the Justice and are factors that will no doubt feature in specific training to deal with it. The professionals are the responses to the consultation we are launching also, in a sense, ducking this because they do not wish tomorrow around shared parenting in any case. I agree to culturally offend. Again, what is the Department it is a worrying area. doing about that? Tim Loughton: Child sexual exploitation is the Q855 Pat Glass: Thank you, Minister. Moving on to subject of a large body of work that we have older children, we have heard substantial evidence to undertaken. This is a real problem. I have made a this Committee, and we have also seen in recent legal number of speeches and comments where I have said cases, a clear demonstration that older young people that the whole country needs to wake up to child are particularly at risk and yet are likely to get less exploitation. The high-profile Operation Retriever help or to be routinely overlooked in the child cases from Derby last year and a number of other protection services. What is the Government planning high-profile cases that are about to go or are going to do about this? through the courts now, including in Oxfordshire and Tim Loughton: I think there is a general problem the Midlands, are just the tip of the iceberg. They have around older children in care or on the edge of care. I raised the profile of child exploitation and people are know you have taken evidence suggesting that in beginning to wake up to the fact that it is happening some cases perhaps 16 to 17-year-olds who might not just in northern metropolitan boroughs, but in qualify are not being taken into care on the basis that every town and city, and rural areas as well. Local the local authority is trying to duck an ongoing safeguarding children boards were not equipped as responsibility towards them post-18. I asked for the they should have been to recognise it and do figures on this and, looking back over the last five something about it. The studies that were carried out years, the percentage of looked-after children aged 16 by the University of Bedfordshire and CEOP cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP absolutely underline that. That is why I brought of information. A lot of the information they give me together all the major players around the table, is around lack of awareness about what they are prompted by Barnardo’s and their excellent “Puppet entitled to. Kids in care in particular are getting On A String” report last year—they have really taken conflicting information, even from their own social the initiative here—and Sheila Taylor from Safe & worker or IRO or whoever it might be. As a result of Sound Derby, who was absolutely at the heart of that, they have fed into the charters that we have been bringing those cases to the police’s attention and drawing up. We have done the Foster Carers’ Charter; getting them to do something about it. We got all we have done the Adopters’ Charter; we are working those players around the table and we came up with a on a Children’s Home Charter and a Care Leavers’ really impressive action plan. It is one of the pieces Charter. That is what I will be discussing with my of work I am most proud of, I have to say. group this afternoon. We are going to produce a progress report on that I have also just reissued on the Department website a action plan. I was intending to publish it last month. really concise, clear list of entitlements for children in In the light of the Rochdale trials and the ring who care and for care leavers, which can be downloaded were responsible for some really grotesque abuse and everybody can have. We are promoting that there, with an added angle around children in care through children in care councils. We now produce a homes as well, we have delayed that progress report. Children in Care Council newsletter, which goes out You will be aware that the Secretary of State asked every quarter, in which we put all that practical Sue Berelowitz, the Deputy Children’s Commissioner, information. We are trying to disseminate that to accelerate a part of the report that she was carrying information as much as possible. We have also set up out on gangs and group child sexual exploitation the “Tell Tim” facility on the Department website for anyway. She has just produced that report for the vulnerable kids in care or otherwise to email me at the Secretary of State and we will be publishing it Department directly with things that are going wrong, together with our updated progress report in a matter things that are not going wrong and so on. of weeks. From that, you will see how high an emphasis we place on the importance of this and what Q861 Pat Glass: One thing that has been suggested we expect everybody to be doing about it. To give to us is that the ChildLine helpline could be extended them their due, local safeguarding children boards for older children. Is that something that the have stepped up to the mark there and realised that they need to have local action plans that are fit for Government would consider supporting or purpose. That is probably the biggest priority that encouraging? LSCBs have got at the moment; a lot is happening Tim Loughton: There is not a cut-off date. How old and needs to happen on that. are the children we are talking about?
Q858 Chair: Will they be published before the Q862 Pat Glass: Children are children up to the age recess? of 18. Tim Loughton: Yes. We have literally just received it Tim Loughton: Yes, and children up to 18 ring from Sue Berelowitz and we are going through asking ChildLine now. further questions. That will feed into our progress report and no doubt there will be further work, Q863 Pat Glass: They seemed to suggest to us that particularly around the way residential children’s they did not. homes are run, that will ensue from it. It is our Tim Loughton: Who? intention to announce all that before the recess, yes. Q864 Pat Glass: The children that we spoke to. Q859 Chair: Thank you. Perhaps it is around specifically trained people. Tim Loughton: The Home Affairs Select Committee Tim Loughton: The Department has made a very big is holding an inquiry about it as well, starting on investment in ChildLine; we have funded it to the tune Thursday; they will no doubt want an update from us. of £11.8 million over the next four years. I recently had a meeting with Andrew Flanagan, the head of the Q860 Pat Glass: As part of our evidence, we did talk NSPCC, and the head of ChildLine, to hear their to an awful lot of young people, and what they told report on the progress they have been making. We had us was that they do not necessarily know where best concerns when we gave them that money that they to get the information or where to go to get help. Is were not being as productive as they might be—a lot the Government looking at something that would of calls were being missed, for example—but I have better co-ordinate those kinds of information and to say they have really improved the way they handle support services? calls. They have expanded their online service as well, Tim Loughton: Yes. I think that is a fair point. This which has been hugely successful, and that is more afternoon, I have got a meeting with my care leavers’ used by older children too. I am very happy to go group. I have got these four groups of children in the back to ChildLine and see if they think there is a care system: a group of care leavers; a group of kids problem with that service not being used. It is an in foster homes; a group of kids in residential homes; obvious place to go for information, support, and a group of kids who have been adopted. They counselling, advice or whatever. If they think that come and see me every quarter individually and tell there is a gap somewhere that they might be able to me exactly what is going on, what is going wrong and fill or that we need to do something else on, I am very what is going right. That is a really valuable source happy to look into that. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 021458 Unit: PG09 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/021458/021458_o009_th_corrected transcript 12 June.xml
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12 June 2012 Tim Loughton MP
Q865 Pat Glass: Thank you. I just have two very Bermuda also came to see me recently; they have quick questions. One, again, is something that was some child protection problems in Bermuda. I offered raised with me this week by a constituent, who was to go over there and help him out on those. So we are concerned that there may be Government plans to recognised around the world as blazing a bit of a trail change the regulation around childminders, looking at here, but I am not complacent about it because I think the Netherlands model. It was raised in response to a we could do an awful lot better. question to Iain Duncan Smith, who said he was going to talk to the Department for Education to see if you Q868 Pat Glass: The press take a very negative could jointly look at this. Are you aware of any approach to child protection. Would it be helpful in serious plans? getting more good social workers—that is what we Tim Loughton: I do not know whether we have need—into the profession if we acknowledge that, already issued it or we are about to issue some revised actually, we are rather good at this? Without being guidance around childminders. This is Sarah Teather’s complacent, we are really rather good at it. responsibility. I am probably going to be told that, yes, Tim Loughton: I agree. That is why I have always it has just come out or it is just about to come out. praised social workers. When I set up, in Opposition, There are some changes about trying to take away the Commission on Social Workers back in 2007, some of the bureaucracy around childminders either which produced the “No More Blame Game” report, in the pipeline or they have just come out, and both it was really welcomed. Here was a report that said, you and I have missed the specific date. effectively, social workers are the fourth emergency service. They are damned if they do and damned if Q866 Pat Glass: I shall look for it. they don’t, and it is not in anybody’s interest to have Tim Loughton: So there are some changes, yes. social workers constantly condemned by the press and others because they occasionally get it wrong, but we Q867 Pat Glass: Finally, my understanding is that, hear very little about it when they, most of the time, while there is no room for complacency and we need get it right. I will constantly say that and stand up for always to be looking to improve the system, the child good social work practice. Equally, we must weed out protection system in this country is recognised as poor social work practice, of which there is still some. being as good as, if not better than, most in the Just to put it quickly on the record, I have been told developed world. Do you think that we do not trumpet the final interviews for the Chief Social Worker are that enough? not tomorrow, but in July, and they will be appointed Tim Loughton: I think we do have a really fantastic soon after that. The Chief Social Worker is a really child protection understanding and people working in important development here. This will be a high- child protection in this country. Of course, it is much profile, respected, well-informed voice of social work, better than many other countries, even within Europe, who can go on the 10 o’clock news when stuff is that we could mention. There are some serious worries going wrong or when stuff is going right, and whom about Mediterranean countries, for example, where people can recognise, in the same way they recognise child abuse happens routinely and is just not a big the Chief Medical Officer or Chief Veterinary Officer, issue there. It is a big issue here. We understand it and as the respected face of the profession and feel assured we appreciate the importance of it. I think that is by that. I would just like to see more good-news helped enormously by a very healthy voluntary stories about social workers in the press. children’s sector and some very high-profile names I always go along, whenever I can, to the Social like NSPCC and Barnardo’s, whose business is to Worker of the Year Awards. I went along to the first improve child protection and look after vulnerable one a few years ago. We need more stuff like that. I children. Absolutely, we should trumpet all the people think it is gradually coming. We are seeing some good doing what they are doing. What I am trying to do is people now putting in for social work degree courses, because so many of those people tell me they could and we are seeing some really good people coming on do rather better if they did not have to wade through to the Step Up to Social Work programme—I am all this paperwork as well. Therefore, I am not trying going to their awards ceremony in a couple of weeks’ to undermine what they are doing; I am trying to free time. I have met some really impressive people who them up to do more of what they do well, and to do have given up successful business careers or other it even better. professions to come into children’s social care because I had a meeting with the Irish Children’s Minister they see that as something worth while that they want recently, and she has some English former directors to do. If we get more of them acting as role models of children’s services and others advising the Irish and attracting more like-minded people in, I think that Government on how they can improve their child will up the game of the image of social work. protection services. She came to me to get some indicators and they said, “Because you are streets Q869 Chair: Thank you very much, Minister. ahead of us on this.” The Children’s Minister from Tim Loughton: Are we done already? Thank you. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [SE] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence
Written evidence submitted by John Hemming MP, Justice for Families 1. I founded the Justice for Families campaign in 2006 in a response to the number of people contacting me with problems which arose from care proceedings in England. Justice for Families assists people facing problems with the care system by offering advice on taking cases though the domestic courts and to the European Court of Human Rights. Justice for Families currently has over a thousand cases. These are my personal views. 2. England’s child protection system is in crisis. Perhaps the most obvious symptom of this is in the large numbers of vacancies in the profession and the anecdotal reports of burnout amongst practitioners. At the same time families have left the country to get away from the system and increasing numbers of children are dying from suspected child abuse and neglect. Ofsted’s records of serious childcare incident notifications went up from 47 baby deaths in 2008 to 75 baby deaths in 2009. This was accompanied by a substantial increase in the numbers of children being taken into care. 3. The problem is that the system takes the wrong children into care. Inherently the quality of practice will vary. Some practitioners may be very cautious before taking a child into care—particularly given the outcomes for children in care. Others may take a more gung ho approach. If, however, the care system gets overloaded with children resource constraints will inevitably have an effect. The costs are also an issue. Similar sums could provide a lot more support. 4. Haringey, like many authorities, had a target for the number of children in care which was kept for budgetary purposes. The target for March 2007 was 365 and for March 2008 352. In part the objective of reducing numbers in care is laudable as well of that of trying to reduce the weekly costs which have run at higher than £800 per child per week. On 3 October 2006 it was noted that the deficit forecast for Haringey Local Council was £4.6 million which included a forecast overspend for Children’s Services of £2.3 million— including a figure of £500K for Looked After Children. The Executive Member for Finance said “I will be working closely with the services concerned and I will be looking to them to identify ways to bring the budget back on target”. It was recognised at that time that the placements budget was running at 381 children and was very tight. The figure then crept up to 392 by November 2006. 5. By 31 March 2007 the financial situation had improved although there had still been an overspend of £500K on legal fees. The numbers of children in care had reduced and a new target was set of 352. In March at the end of the 2007–08 financial year, however, the numbers of children in care had increased back up to 373 (21 more than budget). It appears that controls on the number of care proceedings were tightened up in November 2006 with the 12 month rolling number from November 2006 going below 40 for the first time they were released in August 2007 and the number then went back up above 50 (where historically it has been in recent years) in September 2007. 6. From this can be seen how the care system can be influenced by budgetary constraints. At a senior management level the details of cases are not considered. Managers are instructed to get certain numbers to change. Whilst BV163 was in operation managers were instructed to increase the numbers of children adopted. This was a pressure from central government that occurred not taking into consideration what effect this had on children and families. Managerial success was determined on the basis of the numbers rather than how well children had been cared for. 7. The child protection system in England is particularly obsessed with adoption. What is worse is that not only was the system driven by financial targets for increasing the number of adoptions, but also that it was driven by a mathematical error in the calculations as to what proportion of children were adopted. 8. There are many reports that show the error made by the government, but a good example is Alan Rushton’s paper “Outcomes of adoption from public care: research and practice issues” published in Advances in Psychiatric Treatment (2007) 13: 305–311. In this paper he says “Adoption from care concerns just a small proportion (6%) of all looked after children in England (Department for Education and Skills, 2005) and so remains a relatively uncommon solution to the needs of these young people.” 9. The mathematical error made by the department is that they are comparing the number of children adopted (3,800 in 2004–05) to the number of children in care (about 63,000) rather than the number that came into care in that year (7,700). Of the 7,700 taken into care in 2005 1,700 were aged over 10. Those children are normally taken into care because their parents cannot cope. Hence of the 6,000 that could potentially be adopted some 3,800 are actually adopted. That is more like 60% than 6%. 10. Unsurprisingly a large number of these adoptions break down. Research by people such as Alan Rushton finds disrupted adoptions run at around 20–25%. These fail often because the children that are adopted exhibit very difficult behaviour. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that many adoptive parents are not given full understanding of the child’s background and behavioural difficulties before the adoption is completed. There also seems to be a perception among some adoptive parents that once they are abandoned by both CAMHS and the LA being left to cope alone with these behaviours. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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11. What is particularly sad is that a large proportion of the children who are adopted are removed at a very early age from their birth family. Research by Professor Michael Rutter points to the key months for a baby being six to 18 months. In 2004–05 1,770 babies were taken into care before this period. 12. The evidence in terms of attachment disorders and particularly reactive attachment disorders, therefore, for these children is that this is caused by the way they are treated whilst in care. Professor Rutter’s research demonstrates that the children can recover from difficulties from a lack of love and attention in the first six months of life, but not so readily from that in the following 12 months. 13. Reactive Attachment disorder is often misdiagnosed as autism. Children who have this problem have difficult behaviour that the authorities provide little support for and then when the children get old enough their behaviour is so difficult that their adoptive parents cannot cope and they go back into care. 14. A figure of 20% of adoptions failing would give some 800 children every year who are coming back into care. What I find particularly dreadful is that a number of those are children whose problems are caused by their treatment in care. 15. At the same time we have children removed at birth for inadequate causes. It is obvious from the figures as to increasing numbers of deaths (sent to Ofsted) that the crystal ball used by practitioners to predict the future (such as likely emotional abuse) is not spotting the children at risk of dying as a result of abuse. 16. Before going into the issue of potential changes I will look specifically at the issues raised by the committee:
Whether the child protection system allows for effective identification of, and early help to, children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation (including, but not restricted to: neglect, sexual and physical abuse, domestic violence, forced marriage, female genital mutilation, child trafficking and online exploitation) 17. The current system has low thresholds that allow a very large number of interventions. The interventions that actually happen, therefore, tend to be driven in part by a mixture of budgetary limits and chance. 18. The phrases “neglect” and “physical abuse” are far too vague. One constituency case I have relates to a debate as to whether or not a child has been smacked. The damage that has been done to the family as a result of the intervention goes much further than any potential harm to the child. 19. If low thresholds are allowed for intervention then this places a strain on the system and does not allow a proper triage system to operate. 20. “Emotional abuse” is far too much of catch all category. Children suffer some psychological trauma from being taken into care. Hence before a child should be taken into care for “emotional abuse” there has to be a very high threshold. It would be useful to have a longditudinal study of cases of children removed from families for emotional abuse to identify if this benefits the child.
Factors affecting the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment, and variations across the country 21. There are far too few guidelines for decision-making. This gives rise to a wide variation in thresholds. One mother who has had over nine children removed by one authority has recently been allowed to go home and look after her child by a different authority.
Appropriate thresholds for intervention, including arguments for and against removing children from their families 22. This is a matter that requires detailed work as referred to above and formal guidance from the government.
Whether the child protection policies and practices of non-social work agencies and Government departments assist professionals to work together in the interests of the child 23. There are far too many compulsory referrals which means that the children’s services departments have to do a lot of triage work. There needs to be clear guidance as to when intervention is warranted and this should guide both social work agencies and non-social work agencies.
Solutions Firstly, there need to be some general principles
Design a system for real people 24. We need to move away from an approach that looks for scapegoats and aims to punish people for making errors. Child protection is a complex environment where subtle judgments need to be made. Too much pressure on the individual making the judgments results in a number of unacceptable outcomes. Firstly, people decide they do not want to do the job—hence lots of vacancies. Secondly, defensive decision-making occurs and finally there is a tendency to try to cover up mistakes rather than learn from them. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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25. Care should add value to the child’s life and the parents are actually often the best people to monitor that even if they are not directly responsible for the care of the child. 26. The system should aim to be minimally intrusive with supervised parenting as a priority rather than to be avoided.
Have checks and balances that actually work 27. The system has many so called checks and balances. However, because of the pressures there is a tendency not to correct early mistakes. This creates a culture in which once a decision has been taken an overwhelming effort goes into implementing the decision and too little thought goes into reviewing whether the original decision was right. At the same time it is important that if a decision is changed that no effort goes into punishing the person or people who made the original “wrong” decision. What is needed is that people learn from the process rather than feel they must justify their original decision at all costs.
Operate on an evidenced basis with guidelines 28. There are no real guidelines or law as to what warrants intervention, when parenting is “good enough” or how people fail or pass assessments. This results in an overly wide individual interpretation which is only marginally evidence based. The large numbers of disrupted adoptions show that the main policy underpinning the English system is failing for large numbers of children every year.
Don’t have too much bureaucracy and targets 29. Numerical targets for subtle issues of judgment don’t help. Even having a simplistic target for a timescale within which to do an assessment really doesn’t help. The systems used for recording information should be driven by the job rather than performance indicators. Targets have done substantial damage to judgment.
Given the general principles there need to be specific changes Move away from a legally dominated system and strengthen the case conference 30. The case conference should be the key location in which decisions are taken. This should not require lawyers although parties may have advocates in meetings. The objective of the case conference should be to look inquisitorially for the best way forward for the children and the families with a view towards what potential solutions exist on a co-operative basis. 31. The practitioners of various disciplines should be allowed to cast a secret ballot as to the conclusion. There may be a merit in bringing in a small number of independent individuals as jurors to balance out the process. This could include members of the extended family. Furthermore proceedings should be video recorded and a copy kept. 32. The case conference, however, has to operate in a truly independent manner with a chair who is not financially dependent upon the local authority. It can also be used to control contact arrangements.
Independent has to mean truly independent 33. One problem area is that many individuals are described as being independent when they are in practice not independent. An expert appointed jointly by the parties depends upon all of the parties. The refusal of second opinions means that it is the decision as to which expert is appointed that generally the determinant of the outcome of the case. Contentious issues such as SBS are ones where specific experts are known to have specific views. 34. Social Workers regularly “advocate for the child” in lobbying experts as to what they expect the conclusion to be from a particular report. It would not be surprising if a local authority were to oppose the appointment of an expert with whom they had previously had difficulties. Hence experts have to keep the local authority sweet.
Have a merits review case conference 35. There needs to be one or two tiers of independent reviewing of the decisions of the case conference. This needs to occur outside the management of the local authority responsible for the original case conference. 36. The problem with the judicial processes is that they have substantial costs which do not exist and are not accessible for people without advice.
Scrap the adoption panels 37. It is unclear what added value arises from the adoption panels. Some evidence is needed as to whether they improve decision-making. Such a large proportion of adoptions are disrupted that it is clear that decision- making goes badly wrong. Adoption panels are made up of lay people who are presented with large quantities of often complex paperwork at a late stage. They normally rely on the social worker who wrote it to guide them cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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through the report and although searching questions are asked this brings into question the true independence of the panel. Further the chair is usually an employee of the LAs children’s department.
Scrap targets and improve case handling. 38. If the performance indicators are scrapped then some of the problems with the ICS are resolved. Record keeping needs to facilitate the process whereby matters are taken to the case conference and through merits reviews. It is important that the recording process identifies allegations that are agreed by parties to the case and also those that are contested. Too many cases are based upon shifting sands and shifting arguments.
Have longitudinal research and feedback 39. The current system has a database called SSDA903 that could be used for more effective research. However the previous government refused to research the numbers of adoptions that were disrupted. Independent audit of a small number of cases on a longitudinal basis is needed for feedback as to changes in practice. 40. There are quite a few cases where children continually run away from foster care to get back to their parents. Detailed review of these is needed to understand whether the actions taken by the state are really any benefit to the children.
Have better categorization of cases for budgetary purposes 41. There will always be budgetary problems. In the current climate questions should be asked as to whether cases based upon “emotional abuse” warrant intervention. However, there needs to be a finer analysis of cases so that when budgetary decisions are made there is some understanding as to their impact.
Facilitate independent scrutiny 42. There needs to be more independent accountability as to what is happening in care cases. Judges should not have control over what is released in respect of the cases that they handle. This should be handled by the information commissioner’s office. Material that does not identify any human parties should be assumed to be to general publication with the permission of a party as long as the parties are kept anonymous. The process should require parties to tell other parties that which they wish to publish and to copy this to the information commissioner. After two weeks they should have deemed consent.
Replace “risk of significant harm” with Article 8. 43. The question as to when intervention is handled is better phrased in Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights than Section 31. Article 8 builds in a balancing act that is not built into Section 31 of the 1989 Act.
Review the merits of forced adoption 44. The existence of forced adoption as an option creates a major tension between parents and practitioners. Those countries with forced adoption also have higher levels of deaths from child abuse and neglect. Removing the option of forced adoption could align the interests of parents and practitioners and in doing so improve the outcomes for children.
Use standard of proof between balance of probabilities and beyond reasonable doubt. 45. Many practitioners use the “real possibility” standard of proof which is basically to try to disprove an allegation and if you fail to disprove the allegation then it is considered proven. This is a disastrous approach as it results in many matters being accepted as fact for which there is no evidence. Training needs to be given to stop this from happening.
Don’t increase the levels of qualifications 46. There is no evidence that requiring degree level qualifications in social work has improved the situation more important than qualifications are life skill gained over a number of years bringing to the practitioner a rooted common sense approach which is lacking in the current system. What may improve the position is extra on the job training before becoming fully qualified. There has been a deficit of suitable places available to degree students over the last few years and if the degree is going to continue as a necessity, then this needs to be addressed.
Don’t reorganize the departments 47. The initial Laming reform that completely reorganized social services has probably been counter productive, but reversing those reforms is probably not warranted. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Review specifically how to handle Domestic Violence issues 48. There needs to be a detailed review into how child protection issues are managed within situations which involve domestic violence.
Reading Parents their rights 49. Currently in care proceedings there is no vehicle for ensuring that parents are aware of their rights regarding the law and child protection. Nor are parents aware that when they have an argument with their spouse, then that constitutes “emotional harm” and can result in their child being adopted. October 2011
Written evidence submitted by Karma Nirvana Introduction Karma Nirvana is a charity that primarily works to assist victims of honour based violence and forced Marriage. In recent years Karma Nirvana has been increasingly involved in providing training, advice and guidance to professionals who are dealing with cases of honour based violence and forced marriage. In the last two years Karma Nirvana has received over 10,000 calls with 55% directly from victims and 40% from professionals. 53% of children and young people under the age of 18 called the helpline who accounted for more than 3,000 calls. Honour based violence and forced marriage is therefore a significant child protection issue. Our submission is as follows:
1. Whether the child protection system allows for effective identification of, and early help to, children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation (including but not restricted to: neglect, sexual and physical abuse, domestic violence, forced marriage, female genital mutilation, child trafficking and online exploitation) 1.1 Karma Nirvana would respectfully suggest that with regard to honour based violence and forced marriage; the child protection system does not currently allow for effective identification of, and early help to children at risk of honour based violence and forced marriage. We believe that a lack of knowledge and training in this area together with misplaced concerns by professionals about “cultural” sensitivities leads to a situation whereby British born subjects with a different cultural heritage are subjected to a form of child abuse that would not be tolerated if it were to be perpetrated against white British born subjects. 1.2 The Forced Marriage Unit at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has produced excellent guidance to all agencies in dealing with such cases. However there has been a lack of training on the implementation of the guidance and training is essential; as dealing with cases of forced marriage requires a fundamentally different approach to other child protection issues. For example, professionals are trained to work in partnership with parents and the community in the work they do to safeguard and promote the welfare of children, including child protection. Inter-agency guidance on dealing with child protection issues emphasises the importance of sharing information and working with families. Therefore, dealing with cases of honour based violence and forced marriage requires a fundamentally different approach to other child protection cases as it is the family and community who are the perpetrators of this abuse and there are frequently multiple perpetrators. In addition to this; children with disabilities are particularly vulnerable. 1.3 The Forced Marriage (Civil Protection) Act 2007 has been of great assistance in providing legal remedies including Forced Marriage Protection Orders to British born subjects. However, in terms of monitoring the compliance with orders and sanctions for non-compliance; this has been less effective. We are particularly concerned about children and young people who are returned to their families in respect of the monitoring of the welfare of these children and the prevention of subsequent abuse. It is our understanding that children and young people under the age of 18 form the vast majority of those subject to Forced Marriage Protection Orders.
2. Factors affecting the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment, and variations across the country 2.1 As previously stated; Karma Nirvana believe that a lack of knowledge and training is a significant factor in the failure to identify children and young people at risk of honour based violence and forced marriage. This is borne out by the fact that where Karma Nirvana has undertaken workshops and Roadshows to raise awareness of the issue; the helpline has subsequently received an increase in contact from professionals. For example a Roadshow in Nottingham subsequently produced an average of 10 calls per month to the helpline, whereas previously there was only an average of five calls per month. 2.2 Professionals working with children and young people are concerned about appearing to be either “racist” or “culturally insensitive” and this can be a significant issue in the early identification and assessment of risk. The difference between an arranged marriage and a forced marriage is not always clearly understood or explored. In cases where it has been recognised that a child is being forced into marriage; the risk of placing cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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that child in what is seen to be a “culturally appropriate” placement is not always explored. In contrast; a child’s rejection of a forced marriage does not mean that they wish to reject entirely their family’s heritage, religion and culture and this need to maintain those links should be supported and enabled where they have been placed outside of their community. These are complex issues which require a developed understanding by the courts, including CAFCASS staff. 2.3 A further factor which affects the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment, as already stated, is the fact that sometimes professionals dealing with cases of honour based violence and forced marriage are not always clear that this is a child protection issue and not a cultural issue. Therefore professionals do not always apply the same degree of urgency that they would if a white British child was at risk of being removed from the country and forced into marriage with a stranger, involving as it does crimes of kidnap and rape. 2.4 Government guidance on dealing with children and young people including Working Together to Safeguard Children 2010 and The Framework for Assessment for Children in Need and their Families whilst providing comprehensive guidance on assessment and dealing with child protection issues; does not adequately reflect the specific knowledge and expertise needed to deal with honour based violence and forced marriage. Whilst the guidance issued by the Forced Marriage Unit is comprehensive and referred to in Working Together it is not integrated in such a way as to enable skilled professionals in child protection to understand the approach needed to deal with these cases. Honour based violence and forced marriage are fundamentally different to other child protection issues, particularly in respect of working with parents. Therefore children and young people may be inadvertently placed at increased risk by professionals who are following the principles and guidance that underpins work with children and their families. There have been cases where professionals have informed parents of their child’s concerns, attempted to mediate and shared information in a way that has placed children at increased risk of harm. Work needs to be undertaken to adapt the assessment framework to assist professionals in undertaking a comprehensive assessment of children at risk of honour based violence and forced marriage. 2.3 Schools and the education system are at the heart of early identification and prevention but in areas where there are high numbers of children whose heritage is not British; they also can be hampered by concerns about cultural sensitivity and a wish not to upset parents. In some instances, schools have not put up the posters provided by the Forced Marriage Unit or provided information to pupils as to where they can get support and help on this issue. We are concerned about the lack of knowledge in schools about forced marriage and disappointed that; in the Government response to the eighth report from the Home Affairs Committee Session 2010–2012 HC 880, the Secretary of State for Education does not believe that it is his department’s role to be directive or prescriptive to schools on such issues. However we do welcome the recommendation that Ofsted Inspectors pay particular attention to policies in place to deal with forced marriage in their assessments of the safeguarding arrangements of schools where pupils are likely to be at risk of forced marriage. This is particularly important as schools are the place where an early assessment of risk can be most easily identified. They are critical to prevention.
3. Appropriate thresholds for intervention, including arguments for and against removing children from their families 3.1 Thresholds for intervention in cases of honour based violence and forced marriage should be based on an assessment of risk, as already stated. The Forced Marriage Unit’s guidance gives a comprehensive list of indicators of risk and our view is that a specific assessment which incorporates a risk indicator tool should be developed to assist the development of a threshold for intervention in this area. Particular regard should be given to the views of the children and young people involved as they will have a much better understanding of the risk to themselves from their family and community than the professionals involved. 3.2 The threshold for intervention with siblings to prevent them also becoming victims of forced marriage is likely to be earlier and again the Forced Marriage Unit’s guidance is clear on this issue which needs to take account of the history of forced marriage within the family. There is a risk that if one child has failed to honour a family’s commitment to a marriage, another child may have to substitute to maintain the family’s honour. 3.3 In paragraph 2.2 we made reference to issues of placement for children who are removed from their families. It is our experience that children and young people who reject a marriage being forced upon them are likely to be at risk of significant harm, leading in some cases to death. Therefore removal from their family and community may well be the only way to protect them. This means a significant loss for these particular children and young people who not only have been through trauma at home but whom, by their decision, and for their protection, may need to be placed outside of their communities and therefore may lose their sense of belonging to a community. We are conscious that there is a significant training issue here for CAFCASS staff in terms of their understanding of the issues and their influence with the courts. 3.4 Placement decisions will be of critical importance. Community networks stretch far and wide and it will not always be appropriate to place a child within a similar cultural placement. However they will need a placement that is sensitive to their heritage and culture and which maintains their sense of identity. For those children at greatest risk of reprisals; professionals will need to be aware that disclosing the child or young person’s whereabouts will be particularly dangerous, There is a training issue here in respect of what would normally be considered best practice in respect of a looked after child. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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3.5 Karma Nirvana would argue that all too often honour based violence and forced marriage have been seen as a domestic violence issue rather than a child protection issue and therefore children and young people escaping forced marriage have been inappropriately placed in refuges. There is a strong argument for developing a network of specialised foster placements or safe houses for these children and young people.
4. Whether child protection policies and practices of non-social work agencies and Government departments assist professionals to work together in the interests of the child 4.1 Karma Nirvana would wish to acknowledge the significant work undertaken by Government in this area of work in recent years. We do however consider that honour based violence and forced marriage as it impacts on children has not been placed where it should have been ie firmly within a child protection arena. 4.2 Many Local Safeguarding Children Boards have been successful, assisted by the Working Together guidance, in drawing local agencies from the statutory and voluntary sectors together to ensure consistent child protection practice in their local area and to integrate guidance from different government departments. 4.3 We have already indicated in paragraph 3.5 that we believe that progress in our particular area of expertise may have been hampered by consideration of honour based violence and forced marriage as a domestic violence, rather than a child protection, issue. Therefore we would suggest that it would be helpful for all issues relating to children to be dealt with by one government department as this is not the only situation where an issue relating to children and young people is spread across different government departments. Despite best endeavours cross-government department working is not always as effective as it could be. 4.4 It is very important that we use resources and expertise in as efficient a way as possible at this time and therefore the more we can work together across agencies, the more we can achieve. It is perhaps the government’s role to facilitate this happening.
Conclusion Karma Nirvana is committed to working across all agencies to raise awareness and understanding of the complexity of the issues involved in dealing with cases of honour based violence and forced marriage as it affects children and young people. We have considerable experience in this area of work and we can provide case studies to the select committee to illustrate why we are making this submission. We believe that the key to addressing our concerns lies in effective training and assessment and also for professionals to understand that this is a serious child protection issue. September 2011
Written evidence submitted by ECPAT UK (End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes) About ECPAT UK ECPAT UK (End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes) has 17 years experience of campaigning against the sexual exploitation of children, including child trafficking. As the only UK charity with child trafficking as part of our name and core business ECPAT UK has developed a high level of expertise in this area. We work both in the UK and with international partners to campaign, research, and provide advice to Local Authorities, police and others. ECPAT UK advises the All Party Parliamentary Group on Trafficking of Women and Children by providing guidance and support on issues specific to child trafficking. ECPAT UK has published various research reports on child trafficking including research across London (What the Professionals Know, 2001; Cause for Concern, 2004); Manchester, Newcastle and the West Midlands (Missing Out, 2007) and Wales (Bordering on Concern, 2009). ECPAT UK and UNICEF co-published the report Rights Here: Rights Now in September 2007 measuring UK policy and practice on safeguarding child victims of trafficking. ECPAT UK has produced a number of e-learning packages on child trafficking and regularly conducts training on safeguarding child victims of trafficking.
Does the child protection system allow effective identification of, and early help to child victims of trafficking? 1. There is no comprehensive reporting framework on the numbers of children trafficked to the UK and being looked after by Local Authorities in England. Subsequently there is no single agency responsible for mapping outcomes for this group of highly vulnerable and traumatised children. ECPAT UK’s experience in this area would suggest that the child protection system is failing child victims of trafficking. The following paragraphs set out why and record ECPAT UK’s position on the extra levels of protection needed to safeguard child victims of trafficking. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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2. Children are trafficked to the UK, within the UK and out of the UK for a range of purposes including sexual exploitation, labour exploitation, forced criminal activity and benefit fraud. The commonality across all these children is that they will have suffered abuse and neglect, often multiple forms of physical and sexual abuse over a sustained period of time. Child trafficking is a child protection issue of the highest order. It is not, as the government often frames it, an immigration issue—it is child abuse requiring complex child abuse investigations. 3. ECPAT UK has produced a number of reports on child trafficking since 2002. The research for these reports has drawn on data and interviews across England (London, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Coventry and Solihull) and Wales. Until 2007, when the Government published A Scoping Project on Child Trafficking in the UK (CEOP, 2007) there were no government estimates on the number of children trafficked into the UK. 4. The UK, with its devolved government structures, separate police forces and Local Authority responsibility for child care, will continue to have problems producing a national picture of child trafficking until one single agency becomes responsible for analysing data. Children who are trafficked are often moved from place to place, moving between local authority and police boundaries. The published data available on outcomes for children who are victims of trafficking is patchy, often only represents a small geographic area or is incomplete because statutory agencies haven’t shared relevant information. 5. Significantly there are very few, less than five, convictions for child trafficking, using the UK’s human trafficking legislation. A full investigation into the reasons for this is required to ascertain whether police are investigating child trafficking; whether child abuse investigators are fully trained in this type of crime or whether the relevant legislation is not fit for purpose. It is worth noting that London’s Metropolitan Police “The Met” does not have a specialist unit for the investigation of child trafficking, although various teams including The Paladin Team, deal with child trafficking from time to time as part of their other workload. In informal discussions with investigating officers, police have said to ECPAT UK that the current child protection thresholds do not work in favour of child trafficking because of different factors including a) a vulnerable abused child is not likely to disclose early; and b) there are often no other adults, apart from the perpetrators, who can be interviewed. This means that early referral to police can easily result in no further action. 6. ECPAT UK would like to see far more attention paid the concept of “victimless” prosecutions and use the learning from domestic violence cases in trafficking investigations. As these vulnerable child victims will ultimately become vulnerable witnesses should the case against the trafficker proceed then there needs to be enhanced child protection support during critical times. 7. The National Referral Mechanism (NRM) for Victims of Trafficking, established by government in 2009 is led by the UK Border Agency and the UK Human Trafficking Centre. Its purpose is to aid the early identification of victims. It publishes statistics on the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) website. Not all child victims of trafficking are referred to the NRM so the statistics below are possibly just the tip of the iceberg. The statistics for referrals between 01/04/2009 to 31/03/2011 are as follows: (a) 1481 persons have been referred to NRM of which 390 are children (25%). (b) Of 390 children: (i) 186 were referred because of labour exploitation, including domestic servitude. (ii) 115 were referred because of sexual exploitation. (iii) 89 were referred with the primary exploitation type unknown. (c) The top three countries of origin were Vietnam (107); Nigeria (48) and China (45). 47 nationalities were identified across all referrals. 8. Child victims of trafficking can be still under the control of their trafficker when first encountered by police, immigration or social work teams. Children are groomed what to say and will most likely not have their own identification documents. Even after being taken into care children can be threatened, coerced or forced to return to the trafficker or others (see paragraphs 23–25 on Missing Children). Very early identification procedures are needed to ensure safety plans are enacted within the first hours. However, these plans should not be dependent on a child’s disclosure but by a robust and early identification process that acts quickly on the basis of professional “I suspect but I don’t know”—a concept not always favoured by Local Authority social work teams—followed up by a “Section 47”1 enquiry involving a multi-agency assessment process. Cautious or inexperienced social workers are more likely to wait until they have confirmation by police or others that the child has been trafficked before taking firm action. 9. It is clear that the current child protection procedures, which have been developed in the response to other forms of child abuse, do not necessarily meet the specific circumstances of child victims of trafficking, especially when the child has no family or no responsible adult in the UK. For example, the Framework for the Assessment of Children in Need and Their Families2 requires a local authority to undertake an initial assessment of a child’s needs within seven days. 1 Section 47 of the Children Act (1989) places a duty on the Local Authority where the child was found to conduct a child protection enquiry. 2 Department of Health 4 April 2009, paragraph 3.9 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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10. In most child abuse situations, children’s services will be able to use both the initial and the subsequent core3 assessment to calculate the risk factors in relation to the child being assessed. However, children’s services will usually have the benefit of statements and evidence provided by any nursery workers, teachers, relatives or neighbours with whom the child in question has been in contact. It will also be able to consult social services or NHS records to discover whether there have been any past indicators of abuse or exploitation. In cases involving child victims of trafficking there will be no such “paper trails” and the child is likely to have had very little, if any, contact with anyone except those who have trafficked or exploited him or her. Even if the traffickers are arrested, it is unlikely that they will be prepared to divulge any information about the child prior to any criminal trial, if at all. 11. The initial and core assessment process is often highly dependent on what the child says but child victims of trafficking are likely to need far longer than this to disclose the details and the extent of their previous abuse and exploitation which could have happened over months, if not years. The implication here is that effective early identification and assessment of need rely almost exclusively on the professional/s to take protection measures, often measures requiring substantial resource allocation (ie accommodation placement out of area), at a point which they might not do in other child abuse situations. This is particularly relevant for older children between 15–17, or where age is unsure, who are highly vulnerable in a trafficking scenario—but who might not be seen that way in other circumstances because of their maturity.
Factors Affecting the Quality of Decision Making in Referral and Assessment 12. Using ECPAT UK’s case based experience we can say that failure to identify early and failure to provide child protection supports has been because: (a) Professionals did not act quickly on “indicators of risk”; (b) Professionals did not believe the child; or believed the adult over the child; (c) Professionals did not seek out advice from other relevant agencies (ie police, specialist charities); (d) Child’s age not believed and therefore placed in unsuitable adult accommodation and child protection assessment not completed; (e) Professionals placed precedence on the child’s immigration status rather than on an assessment of need.
Guidance 13. In 2006 the London Local Safeguarding Board produced supplementary guidance on safeguarding child victims of trafficking and this was subsequently adapted in 2007 by The Home Office and Department for Education for use across England and Wales. These documents have recently been updated. However, although a template for good practice no government agency is monitoring the use of the guidance or its efficacy in the protection of children who are trafficked. The guidance is endorsed by the Association of Directors of Children’s Services but no ADCS or DfE report exists on the status or implementation of the guidance. ECPAT UK has not been able to identify anyone who can say which local authorities have implemented the guidance and to what extent.
Immigration status as a barrier to identification 14. ECPAT UK’s research on child trafficking and training workshops with Children’s Social Service teams across the UK clearly indicate that children known or suspected of being trafficked are often already in the asylum system for some time when their experiences of trafficking and exploitation come to light. In other words the social workers did not know at the initial assessment phase and routine plans have been made without knowing a child’s past history. ECPAT UK’s research has unearthed a “culture of disbelief” across statutory agencies when initially dealing with child trafficking cases. An all too hasty willingness to see the child as “lying to get asylum benefits” has led to poor quality decision making. This can lead to trafficked and exploited children being placed in completely inappropriate accommodation, receiving little support and getting no expert legal advice.
Are non-social work agencies working in the best interest of the child UK Border Agency and the National Referral Mechanism (NRM) 15. As discussed in paragraph 6, The UK Border Agency (UKBA) and the UK Human Trafficking Centre (UKHTC)—an agency of SOCA, are responsible for the National Referral Mechanism for the formal identification of victims of trafficking. Local authorities and Police are expected to send a “referral” and case details to the NRM where UKBA immigration officials formally identify children as victims of trafficking (if they have an irregular immigration status) or to UKHTC if the child is from within the European Economic Area. 16. ECPAT UK considers the NRM as “not fit for purpose” when it comes to the identification of child victims of trafficking. The UKBA immigration staff who make these vital decisions are not child protection 3 the fuller multi-agency assessment which should be completed within 35 days if there are child protection concerns cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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specialists nor do they have to consult with child protection specialists when making a decision. In many respects it is a purely administrative process but it can have tremendous impact on a child’s future and on the ability of the Local Authority to respond to the child’s protection needs. 17. There is no formal appeal process in the NRM, which means that if UKBA decide that a child is not a victim of trafficking then the child cannot appeal and the case must go to the High Court for a Judicial Review of the decision. The impact of this on a child can be quite traumatic, requiring another legal professional and is counter to the principle of early intervention as the process can take months to get a decision, either positive or negative. 18. The quality of decision making for children’s NRM outcomes need a robust investigation although that is probably outside of the scope of this inquiry. However it raises questions about what Local Authority and Police do if they do not agree with the NRM decision. 19. Of the 390 children who have been referred to the NRM over a two year period only 141 children have received a final positive “Conclusive Grounds” response. This means that 249 children have not been granted a response or are still waiting. Of the 141 children 33 were British. This means that the UK Border Agency has only formally identified 108 children as trafficked in a two year period, far less than the number of children being considered trafficked by other agencies. This is clearly a barrier to effective joint working, specifically with reference to the best interests of the child.
Guardianship 20. Although not explicit in the terms of this inquiry ECPAT UK would like to provide the Committee with details of what we believe is needed to enhance the protection of children who may be trafficked and create a better functioning child protection system. ECPAT UK, along with other children’s organisations, believes that a system of guardianship for separated children is the only mechanism that will ensure that all actions and decisions with respect to that child will be in their best interests. This is particularly important for trafficked children. 21. The Government has ratified a number of international instruments that require it to take all steps to provide “special protection measures” for child victims of trafficking, including specific references to guardianship. Article 16 of the EU Directive on combating trafficking is to “take the necessary measures to ensure that, where appropriate, a guardian is appointed to unaccompanied child victims of trafficking in human beings”. 22. A system of guardianship for children who have been trafficked would ensure that they have the one person they can trust, who can act in their best interest and assist the child navigate through the welfare, criminal, legal and immigration system. At any given time these children may be required to be at court as witness, or even as defendant if they have been used by traffickers for criminal activity. They have no family in the UK, but also no-one with “parental responsibility”, a legal concept enshrined in British law. This means children have to instruct their own solicitors. A child who has been trafficked may need up to three legal representatives for immigration, criminal and welfare law. A social worker does not provide the necessary legal support role to make decisions based on the child’s best interest in these jurisdictions.
Missing Children 23. ECPAT UK has been very outspoken over the extremely high numbers of suspected and known trafficked children who have gone missing from Local Authority care and are never found. The concept of “safeness” and protection can only be fully realised when children believe that they have a safe haven that affords them more protection than being back on the streets or with the traffickers. There are no quality standards across England for the provision of “safe accommodation” for child victims of trafficking. 24. ECPAT UK’s 2007 report Missing Out4 report identified 80 known or suspected child victims of trafficking in a small-scale study in Manchester, Newcastle and the West Midlands. Forty-eight of these children went missing while in local authority care. In the same year, the Child Exploitation & Online Protection Centre (CEOP) estimated in its own report5 that over an 18 month period, 183 of 330 victims of child trafficking had gone missing from local authority accommodation. 25. The relationship between children going missing and the risk of further harm is currently the subject of a number of new responses by government however ECPAT UK believes that Local Authorities should have a duty to disclose and escalate the details of children missing, suspected as being trafficked, beyond just the local missing persons procedures, and where relevant to undertake a case review and share details beyond the local authority boundaries. There is every reason to believe those children would be moved outside of the Local Authority, or indeed outside of the UK within days. October 2011
4 Missing Out; A Study of Child Trafficking in the North-West, North-East and West Midlands Beddoe C ECPAT UK London 2007 5 A Scoping Report on Child Trafficking in the UK Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and Border and Immigration Agency, London June 2007 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence submitted by the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills (Ofsted) Introduction 1. This submission is based on inspection evidence from a number of sources: — Ofsted’s programme of two day unannounced inspections of local authority arrangements for responding to contacts and referrals about children who are believed to be at risk of harm, and their assessment arrangements. All local authorities were inspected under this programme between June 2009 and August 2010. A second full cycle began in September 2010, and will be completed by the end of March 2012. As at 30 June 2011, 122 local authorities had had their second year inspections and 30 were awaiting a second inspection. — Ofsted’s programme, undertaken jointly with the Care Quality Commission, of full two week inspections of safeguarding and looked after children’s services in every local authority area. This is a three year programme which began in July 2009 and will be completed in July 2012. Up to 30 June 2011, 73 inspection reports had been published, including two reinspections. — Ofsted’s evaluations of serious case reviews since April 2007. — The 2009–10 Annual Report of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education, Children’s Services and Skills. — Ofsted’s report on Good Practice by Local Safeguarding Children Boards, published in September 2011. — “Local authority children’s services inspection and outcomes”, Ofsted statistical release published 29 September 2011.
Overview 2. The key finding from inspection is the level of variability between local authorities in the effectiveness of the way they work with their partners to protect children in their area. Inspectors see many examples of good and even outstanding practice and services. However, of the 73 inspection reports of full safeguarding inspections published by 30 June 2011, inspectors judged overall effectiveness to be inadequate in 18. 33 were adequate; 21 were good; and just one was judged to be outstanding. In the unannounced inspections of contact referral and assessment arrangements, “an area for priority action” is defined as “a serious weakness that is placing children at risk of inadequate protection and of significant harm”. In the first cycle of inspections, areas for priority action meeting this definition were identified in seven local authorities. These included poor assessment of children’s needs, unacceptable delays in the provision of services, cases being closed before they were adequately assessed for risk, child protection investigations being delayed despite evidence of a high level of risk, and poor recording of information, making it impossible to track whether children had been helped and protected. In the second year’s inspections completed by 30 June 2011, one or more areas for priority action were identified in three local authorities. These included systemic weakness in responding to and investigating child protection concerns at the point of first contact, inadequate assessment and planning compounded by weak management oversight, and failures to adequately manage known risks. 3. A comparison of the findings of the second year’s unannounced inspection, where it has taken place, with the findings of the first, does show a clear pattern of improvement. In the great majority of instances where areas for development were identified in the first inspection, appropriate action has been taken and improvements made. Local authorities appear to be using the findings of inspection well to improve the quality of the services they provide to safeguard children.
Effective identification of and early help for children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation 4. In many areas, there are established local arrangements that support the early identification of need and provide help to children, young people and their families. These include agreement among the local authority and partner agencies to use the Common Assessment Framework (CAF)6 to co-ordinate work with families who do not reach the threshold for referral to child protection services but who nevertheless need support. Often there is also a “team around the family” commitment with a lead professional working closely with the family and co-ordinating the help that is being offered. 5. Co-located professionals working in strong partnerships are features of some of the arrangements in place to offer early help, and many inspections identify universal services for children such as schools and primary health care being pivotal in that offer of support. Children’s centres often offer a base for early help to families, and schools, with support from local authority child protection services and training for designated teachers, can play an important role in supporting families whose difficulties are at a low level. There is inspection evidence that personal advisers in schools are helping to focus support on families and children who are vulnerable. 6. It is important that the Local Safeguarding Children’s Board provides strong challenge to all partners about the availability and effectiveness of early help. In those areas where the early help offer is most developed, there 6 http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/strategy/integratedworking/caf/a0068957/the-caf-process cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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is a comprehensive range of early support services, such as help for children and adolescents with mental health problems, domestic violence perpetrator programmes, housing and accommodation advice, family group conferencing and family intervention projects. The extent to which local preventative services are actually available for children and young people affects whether they go on to be helped at the earliest opportunity and when their needs are first identified. Local decision making may be robust, but inspections show that in some areas, those “early help” services and therefore the help is not available. 7. There are also a number of common areas for development in the provision of early help and the identification of children at risk identified in inspections. One issue frequently identified is the need to extend the efficacy of the CAF so that it functions as a gateway to tangible and transparent help for families rather than simply being used as a case record about what has happened to the child or young person, or as a means of collating information for a referral to children’s social care. The CAF is also a mechanism designed to support the sharing of information and case planning among professionals working with families. In many places there is a need to ensure that this multi–professional tool is effectively used. This is often an area for development identified in the first year’s contact referral and assessment inspection on which, at the second inspection, it appears to have been most difficult to make progress. 8. The contribution of the voluntary and community sector to delivering preventative services is vital in every local authority area. The contribution is most effective when it is developed as part of an integrated strategy which commits to children and young people receiving help when their needs are first identified. 9. A significant factor in distinguishing poor authorities from good or outstanding ones is the quality of commissioning and the extent to which this is based on known and understood need in the community. If strategic commissioning is weak or based on poor information, evidence from inspections shows that voluntary and community organisations are less able to offer effective services because there is insufficient targeting and too many gaps in the system.
Factors affecting the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment and variations across the country 10. Inspection evidence shows a number of factors affecting the decisions that are made about the effectiveness of help offered to children and young people at the referral and assessment stages of their contact with children’s services. When professionals are trying to make sense of a child’s circumstances following a contact, there are multiple threshold points where critical decisions about next steps have to be made. These will include the decision to formalise a contact into a referral, the decision to proceed from referral to formal assessment and, at any point in that assessment, to deepen, stop or move to a formal child protection investigation. At each stage on this continuum of understanding and helping children and young people, there should be effective and embedded management oversight and understanding about the evidence informing the professional judgment about the safest and most appropriate next steps. There is substantial inspection evidence that management support, supervision and quality assurance of casework vary greatly both across and within local areas. This has a significant impact on the quality of referral and assessment work. 11. The local arrangements for managing contacts and referrals about children, young people and families, are often an area requiring improvement. There is strong inspection evidence that robust and systematic management oversight of the screening of contacts and referrals is critical in improving the identification of children at risk of harm or in need of early help. In too many areas this is not strong enough. Weaknesses show up particularly when there is insufficient attention given to cases where there are repeat referrals of children and young people, and when cases are closed following an initial assessment when action needs to be taken to obtain more information about the circumstances in which the child or young person is living. In recent years, the demand for and rate of referral to children’s social care has increased substantially.7 Some authorities have struggled to cope with this increase in demand. Some of the prioritisation required has been undertaken by unqualified social work staff creating a risk that important information about the referral may be missed or misinterpreted. There is inspection evidence that the emphasis on initial assessment, and on cases either being moved on for further action or closed, can divert attention from the provision of effective help. The quality of ongoing work, planning and review, even in good authorities, is often less strong than the quality of assessment work. Improving access by health professionals to information about children with child protection plans and the quality of case recording are also identified as areas for development in inspections. 12. Although generally, at a second inspection of contact referral and assessment arrangements, inspectors find strong evidence of progress against areas for development identified at the first inspection, there are a number of areas where improvements often seem harder to achieve. These include weaknesses in the quality of social work supervision and in particular the challenge and focus on direct practice with children, young people and families. The need to improve the quality, breadth and consistency of assessment, identifying risks and formulating a clear plan of action, is another issue which has been found to persist from one inspection to another. Inspection has frequently identified the difficulties which local authorities face in making effective use of the electronic integrated children’s system (ICS), ensuring that it supports practice rather than acting as a mechanistic drag on it. Inspectors and practitioners report that the systems in place can obscure the child’s needs, critically restricting the development of an account about what is happening to the child or young person and therefore what the next steps should be to protect them. Where issues relating to the ICS have been 7 For 2009–10, 603,700 referrals were made to children’s social care services, an increase of 56,700 (10%) from the 2008–09 figures and an 11% increase from 2006–07; DFE. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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identified in the first contact referral and assessment inspection, it is rare to find that they have been successfully addressed at the second. The risk and protective factors in a child’s life are not always well considered or integrated into an action plan to keep the child or young person safe. Poor case recording and limited analysis about the impact of abuse and neglect on the child or young person’s development can mean that the cumulative picture is not understood and that there continues to be exposure to risk and harm. 13. Delayed responses, often attributed by practitioners and managers to the volume of casework and decisions to be made and endorsed, can be a feature of authorities who are struggling to cope with demand. Delayed help can mean that some children and young people remain in harmful situations longer than is right or necessary. If staff are not required and supported to develop a really close understanding of a child’s circumstances, assessment will be limited and of low quality. In some cases children are not being seen and action plans are unclear and non-specific about next steps. This can lead to inappropriate early case closures which translate into repeat contacts and referrals where each time the need is greater and the risk of or actual harm to the child or young person has increased. 14. Caseloads, support for newly qualified social work staff, quality and availability of senior experience, access to managers and effective caseload management systems are all factors that inspection identifies as creating variation in the quality of work at the frontline. Where staff can manage caseloads, morale and the quality of work is higher. In authorities where workloads are high and in some cases, unmanageable, there are high levels of staff absence/sickness in “front door” teams, exacerbated sometimes by what are experienced as the demands of electronic case recording systems. 15. The impact of the integrated children’s system (ICS) is often reported as affecting the quality of referral and assessment work. Paper and electronic systems often run in parallel, creating duplication. Children’s stories and histories can be obscured and case chronologies are difficult to produce to support ongoing assessment. Where the system is primarily aligned to meet management information requirements, this can drive practitioners to prioritise the recording of process over time spent with children, young people and families. 16. Positive factors influencing the quality of decision-making include in some areas the co-location of multi-professional teams managing referral and assessment. Inspection has found that such arrangements can deliver better responses to children and young people at the early stages of trying to understand their needs and best next steps. Information is more readily shared (often through shared access to an electronic recording system), meetings to agree action are easier to arrange and child protection investigations, where they are necessary, are more effectively and quickly established. 17. Local Safeguarding Children Boards (LSCBs) in some areas also provide strong practice challenge through casework audits and multi-agency training about contact, referral and child protection. Ofsted’s evaluation of serious case reviews over time has highlighted the critical importance of challenge at all levels to the functioning of an effective child protection system. It is important that professionals are able when necessary to challenge families; it is important that they are prepared to challenge their own assumptions and hold them up to scrutiny against the evidence; it is essential that management and supervision provide robust challenge to practice; and it is crucial that agencies are prepared to challenge and be challenged by each other, through the Local Safeguarding Children’s Board.
Appropriate thresholds for intervention, including arguments for and against removing children from their families 18. In her Annual Report for 2009–10, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector noted that: “One of the strongest tests of effective leadership … is the clarity, consistency and degree to which thresholds are known, agreed and applied across the partnership. If managed poorly, this can be a factor in increasing demand. This determines how safe and supported staff themselves feel in managing pressures and influences the degree to which they are enabled to provide safe and supportive practice. In the great majority of inadequate authorities, inspectors identify significant weaknesses in the extent of the shared understanding of thresholds and the consistency with which they are applied, leading to children not receiving the services and support that they need. Thresholds may be set too high in an attempt to manage demand, but this is not consistent with safe practice … Good authorities have succeeded in ensuring that thresholds for access to services are clear, understood, consistently applied and, most importantly, owned across the partnership. This is closely linked to ensuring effective use of the Common Assessment Framework.” 19. She also reported that: “Thresholds are sometimes treated or experienced as barriers to services. If a family is above the threshold, they are able to receive a service. If they are below it, services were not offered. This was not the case in well-performing authorities. In three good authorities, referral and assessment teams offered a consultative service. This made negotiating thresholds less adversarial and helped to ensure that children and young people’s needs were met at different levels by the appropriate agency. In one authority, the coordinator for the Common Assessment Framework was co-located with the duty service.” cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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20. There is also inspection evidence that in some areas professionals such as teachers, head teachers, school nurses, health visitors, general practitioners and midwives understand where the thresholds for offering help are, but consider that they are set too high and that some children and young people do not receive help and/ or protection when it is required. This is likely to be particularly the case if there are few or no early support services, leaving those people working with children, young people and families, no option other than to refer into social care for advice about how to help.
21. If thresholds for intervention are unclear, it is often with regard to domestic violence. The importance of understanding the risk and harm to which children and young people are exposed when they live in homes where there is domestic violence is often evident in inspections when cases are examined about which “contacts” go on to become “referrals” and which “referrals” attract assessment. Looking closely at these cases is important given the evidence about the clearly related risk to children which is seen in serious case reviews and research about the high risk of harm to babies and children under five in particular.
22. Establishing clear and effective arrangements with the local police in respect of domestic violence and the management of referrals is also found in inspections to result in improved prioritisation of cases and a better understanding of the level of risk of and actual harm to which children and young people are exposed. The use of Multi- Agency Risk Assessment Conferences (MARAC), as part of the response to domestic violence, has been found to show evidence of improved partnership, decision making and action planning in respect of the protection of children living in violent households.
23. Local authorities and their partners have a variety of systems for managing the thresholds for entry into care and it is sometimes difficult during inspection to establish the arrangements locally for diverting children away from care and supporting them at that boundary. Inspections have found that where there are dedicated support teams for “edge of care” work and multi-professional panels to consider individual cases and the need for “care”, the assessment and quality of casework is improved. More direct work with the family has generally been undertaken, there has been considered senior scrutiny of the child’s needs, other alternatives to ‘care’ are likely to have been tested and the decision, once it is made, is timely and based clearly on the need to protect that child or young person from further harm.
Whether the child protection polices and practices of non-social work agencies and government departments assist professionals to work together in the interests of the child
24. Through our joint activity with the Care Quality Commission, inspection has identified both strengths and areas for development in the interface between health services and the broader child protection system. In particular, engaging health professionals with shared assessment and the associated provision of early help for families is an area in which considerable further work needs to be done. Clarity and agreement about thresholds for the referral of children and young people to social care services in many places remains a challenge.
25. Where health professionals are able to participate in child protection work and their engagement is supported strategically and through the LSCB, it is clear from inspections that their involvement improves the quality and effectiveness of services—for example, in the arrangements made to protect unborn babies, in multi-agency engagement in early assessment teams and in the provision of sexual trauma services. The recent report published by Ofsted about good practice in Local Safeguarding Children’s Boards provides clear evidence of the value of multi-agency case audits for learning from high quality practice as well as when practice needs to improve.
26. The provision of multi- agency training in child protection is a responsibility resting with LSCBs. Inspection has found evidence of the impact of high quality training across the work of all professionals, including volunteers, and learning together increases professional confidence in frontline work with families.
Conclusion
27. “Of course, difficult choices have to be made about priorities and resources, about investment, disinvestment, commissioning and decommissioning. But if preventative services are limited or difficult to access, or if they operate in a disconnected way and the focus is only on safeguarding as a discrete and “heavy end” activity, then safeguarding services will find it difficult to escape a crisis-driven mindset. If keeping children safe sits within a clear network of ways of working, which supports children earlier and identifies risk earlier, then inspection evidence suggests that frontline safeguarding services are enabled to operate more effectively. Effective safeguarding services and effective early intervention services need to be seen as part of a single system or a single continuum, not polarised as alternative choices. Neither should we polarise high- quality practice and high-quality systems. The one requires the other.”
Annual Report of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education Children’s Services and Skills, 2009–11. November 2011 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence submitted by Loughborough University Call for Evidence 1. The following written evidence is submitted by Professor Harriet Ward, Director, and Rebecca Brown, Research Associate, both at the Centre for Child and Family Research (CCfR), Loughborough University. It is based on an extensive body of academic research in this area, undertaken by CCfR since 2004, and specifically on the findings from two current bodies of research: the Loughborough longitudinal study of infants suffering or likely to suffer significant harm (Ward, Brown and Westlake, in press) and the Safeguarding Children Research Initiative. Children in the longitudinal study were identified as being likely to suffer significant harm before their first birthdays; decisions made and their consequences have now been tracked for the following four years. The Safeguarding Children Research Initiative covers fifteen studies commissioned by the Department of Health and the Department for Education following the Inquiry into the death of Victoria Climbie. Key findings from across this initiative will be published later this month (Davies and Ward, forthcoming).
Effective Identification and Early Help 2. Interventions designed to prevent abuse occurring or escalating are generally more effective than those designed to help children and families overcome the consequences of abuse. However there is ample evidence from a wide range of studies that abuse is often not identified in its early stages, with the result that early, preventive help is not offered. This is particularly true of neglect and emotional abuse. These are chronic, corrosive conditions which may deteriorate over a long period without reaching a specific crisis, such as a baby being locked up alone overnight or abandoned in a shop, that might prompt specific action. 3. Factors that make identification and early help less likely include: insufficient training of social workers and some early years professionals into the long-term consequences of abuse for children’s life chances; the manner in which practitioners who work with extremely disadvantaged families can become inured to the evidence of neglect because they see so much of it; difficulties in presenting courts with reliable evidence of long-term corrosive impact without the more obvious examples that crises provide. 4. There is also substantial evidence that practitioners in adult services (alcohol and substance misuse services; domestic violence services; adult mental health) frequently focus on the needs of their service users without considering how the adverse behaviour patterns of those who are parents impact on children. Tensions exist between these practitioners and those who focus on children, making referrals to children’s social care less likely.
Quality of decision-making in referral and assessment; variations across the country 5. All the above factors affect the quality of decision making in referral and assessment. In addition, poor feedback from children’s social care; inappropriate responses (either insufficient or excessively intrusive); and delayed responses can all make other professionals reluctant to refer. 6. Core assessments are often considered insufficiently robust (or are often incomplete). It has also been evident since they were introduced that, while collection of information can be reasonably comprehensive, analysis of the data and its implications is often inadequate, with the result that plans are often inconsistent (see Cleaver and Walker, 2004). There has consequently been a proliferation of expert assessments, usually commissioned by the courts. These raise a number of issues: they tend to focus on whether or not the parent will be able to overcome risk factors sufficiently to provide a nurturing home for the child, rather than the impact of current abuse on children’s development; they are frequently undertaken by therapists who are also providing services to parents, thereby introducing a considerable conflict of interests; numerous consecutive assessments can introduce unnecessary delay; they tend to be over-optimistic—in the longitudinal study of infants half of the expert assessments that concluded that parents would be able to provide a nurturing home had been disproved by the time the children were three. 7. There is evidence of widespread variation in the quality of decision-making in children’s social care across the country. Variations appear to be related to the attention given to case management and to particular perspectives held by team managers.
Appropriate thresholds for intervention, including arguments for and against removing children from their families 8. There needs to be greater consensus concerning appropriate thresholds for intervention, particularly in neglect cases. By their third birthdays, none of the infants in the Loughborough longitudinal study had died, though two or three had been left in extremely dangerous situations. However just under half of those who remained with birth parents, and just over half of those who had been eventually removed had experienced extensive periods of abuse and neglect, and the data indicate that the emotional, behavioural and cognitive development of many of these children had been seriously compromised, quite probably on a long term basis. Some of these children lived with parents who forgot to feed them, or who left them alone over prolonged periods; one two year old was left to forage for food in the waste bin; one of the three year olds could explain how to prepare heroin for consumption; the small siblings of another infant were allowed to taste illicit drugs from a spoon. Findings from other studies in the Safeguarding Children Research Initiative (Wade et al, 2011; cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Farmer and Lutman, 2009) corroborate this evidence, showing older children returning from care to equally damaging circumstances. 9. The findings from these studies indicate that if the wellbeing of the child is indeed the paramount consideration, then we need to ask much more stringent questions concerning what constitutes acceptable— and unacceptable—levels of parenting in a civilised society. A practical move would be to initiate discussions between the judiciary, directors of children’s services and local authority solicitors concerning acceptable levels of parenting and the parameters of the definition of significant harm, particularly in terms of children’s long- term wellbeing. 10. Formal feedback should also be given to judges and magistrates about the outcomes of their decisions. Judges and magistrates who were interviewed for the longitudinal study would welcome this. 11. Although there are occasional highly publicised campaigns to prevent social workers from removing children from loving families and placing them unnecessarily for adoption, there is no research evidence to indicate that this happens on a systematic or widespread basis. On the other hand there is substantial evidence that many children remain for too long with or are returned to abusive and neglectful families with insufficient support to help them or their parents overcome their difficulties. 12. One of the key principles underlying the Children Act 1989 is that children are generally best looked after within their birth families. This principle is supported by extensive evidence from developmental psychology concerning the nature of attachment and the development of a robust sense of identity self confidence and self esteem. It is also supported by human rights arguments, particularly the right to family life. The problem is that while the vast majority of children are undoubtedly best looked after within their birth families, a very small number are not. The weight of the arguments against separating children tends to make it particularly difficult to identify those few children who will continue to suffer significant harm unless they are removed. 13. The research evidence indicates that long-term exposure to abuse and neglect compromises children’s cognitive, social and emotional development in numerous ways and often causes problems that persist into adulthood. A number of evidence based intensive programmes are now available to help parents overcome abusive behaviour patterns, and to help families overcome the consequences. However these are only gradually being introduced in the UK; they are not widely available; results are promising, but not universally beneficial; improvements are not always sustained in the long-term. There are also major concerns that these and other intensive levels of service can be abruptly withdrawn, with little attempt made to provide less intensive, ongoing support. 14. In the absence of more extensive, effective provision to prevent abuse and mitigate its consequences, many maltreated children are best looked after away from home. 15. Recent evidence confirms that maltreated children do better in terms of both wellbeing and stability if they are placed in long-term foster care or with adoptive families. November 2011
Written evidence submitted by Barnardo’s About Barnardo’s Barnardo’s works directly with over 100,000 children, young people and their families every year through over 400 projects across the UK. We use the knowledge gained from our work with children to campaign for better policy and to champion the rights of every child. With the right help, committed support and a little belief, even the most disadvantaged and vulnerable children can turn their lives around. This response is based on the views of our practitioners and experience of delivering children’s services. It will focus on our specific areas of expertise. We work with vulnerable children who may be “at risk” of harm, looked after children and children and young people who are in need of support across a wide range of services; including through 80 Children’s Centres, substance misuse services, three trafficking services and 20 sexual exploitation services (16 in England) which also work with missing children. We currently work with 1608 children subject to a child protection plans.
Question 1 Children at risk of sexual exploitation 1.1 Barnardo’s annual surveys of our 22 sexual exploitation services covering 2008–09 and 2009–10 indicate that the number of children and young people intensively supported by our services has been rising.8 The most recent survey noted the following trends: — Sexual exploitation is more organised, with networks moving or trafficking children specifically to be abused. 8 Barnardo’s (2011) Puppet on a string: The urgent need to cut children free from sexual exploitation cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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— Grooming using the internet and mobile technology is becoming increasingly more common. — Younger children are increasingly at risk and. — Peer exploitation is becoming more common. 1.2 It is widely recognised that the scale of sexual exploitation is far greater than currently calculated, and there remains a worrying lack of data which can provide an accurate picture of the scale and nature of sexual exploitation. Practitioners often do not identify it and young people themselves frequently do not recognise themselves as abused.9 1.3 Barnardo’s research shows that sexual exploitation is not identified effectively. There is an urgent need for the Home Office to look at developing national reporting mechanisms so that a more accurate picture of the level of child sexual exploitation is established quickly. Data on the prevalence of child sexual exploitation needs to be improved to support professionals to appropriately share information. 1.4 As the main provider of specialist child sexual exploitation services in the UK, Barnardo’s understands that young people at risk of sexual exploitation can lead chaotic lives. For improved identification and early help to these children and young people we recommend: — Raising Awareness amongst all professionals in universal services to improve early identification and to ensure children, parents and carers have the right information to help them access support quickly and safely. We have learned that preventative work can be effective from delivering programmes in schools, pupil referral units and residential units. — Training frontline staff in services for children and young people so that practitioners can recognise the warning signs and symptoms of child sexual exploitation and how to respond using child protection procedures. — Improving the statutory response and ensuring specialist services are commissioned so that there are clearly determined pathways from universal to specialist services and so that gaps in service provision are filled. — Explicit recognition of child sexual exploitation as a form of child abuse within local child protection procedures so that the underlying risk factors along with signs and symptoms of this sort of abuse are clearly identified; and so that links are made between sexual exploitation and children who go missing, and repeated running away triggers further investigation. Barnardo’s welcomes the Government’s recent commitment to producing a national action plan on child sexual exploitation and we will be working with the Government to ensure that these key issues are addressed.
Children at risk of trafficking 1.5 Barnardo’s services work with children trafficked from abroad who are either identified at port of entry or in the community, following several months or even years spent as a victim of trafficking. At port of entry victims are identified by immigration officers. In the community referrals are made by a range of professionals including education, health, social care, or voluntary agencies. 1.6 However, awareness of child trafficking is patchy across the UK, and in our experience child protection procedures are inconsistently followed. In particular, where a child’s age is disputed by a local authority or where a child is found by police to be engaged in criminal activity, their status as victims in need of protection is not upheld. Barnardo’s services find that child victims of trafficking are highly likely to go missing and re- enter exploitation even after being placed in care by the local authority. 1.7 It is our experience that currently child victims of trafficking do not receive adequate social care, legal representation or access to services. Barnardo’s supports ECPAT UK’s call for the Government to provide all child victims of trafficking with a dedicated guardian. A guardianship scheme would ensure that all child victims of trafficking have someone with parental responsibility to care and support them and take decisions in their best interests, and help coordinate agencies working with the child to ensure that their needs are met.
Question 2 Multi-agency working and information sharing 2.1 Poor information sharing and lack of joint working continues to hamper referrals and effective assessment.10 In 2010, Ofsted found that fewer than half of social work practitioners and third-sector organisations thought that communication and information sharing was effective within their local area and between the local authority and the third sector.11 2.2 Whilst our experience of working with local authorities highlights many good examples of multi-agency working, we have also found that Barnardo’s services are not always informed about multi-agency meetings 9 Barnardo’s (2011) Puppet on a string: The urgent need to cut children free from sexual exploitation 10 Care Quality Commission (2009) Safeguarding Children: A Review of Arrangements in the NHS for Safeguarding Children. London: CQC 11 Ofsted (2010) Safeguarding and Looked after Children. National Results for Children’s Social Work Practitioners Survey 2010 and Ofsted (2010) Safeguarding and Looked after Children. National Results for Third Sector Organisations Survey cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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such as child protection conferences and care review meetings. These meetings are vital opportunities for agencies to share information about the assessment of a child or young person’s needs and circumstances. Failure to attend and share information affects how risk can be monitored and assessed and prevents agencies from combining evidence and action planning.12 2.3 Despite the fact that reviews of child protection cases frequently highlight that there are issues with multi-agency working, as a consequence defensive and siloed working becomes more not less entrenched. Barnardo’s believe that more can be done to help practitioners understand the importance and purpose of multi- agency working. There should be more formal training on the dynamics and value of multi-agency working and as part of ongoing professional development, and all agencies must have policies and procedures in place to support joint working.
The Common Assessment Framework 2.4 Barnardo’s practitioners find that missing information on in service referrals can compromise the level of assessment. Although the Common Assessment Framework (CAF) has improved the quality of information obtained, services need to routinely share information such as: family history, contact with wider network (friends, family and community); previous involvement with other agencies and care and child protection status. 2.5 Barnardo’s is aware that use of the CAF is hugely variable and in some areas it is being underused. We believe that the CAF could be simplified to make it a more accessible and holistic tool, for example it could be used more effectively to coordinate children and family services with adult services. 2.6 We are also concerned that in some areas the “process” of undertaking a CAF is focussed on more than on ensuring it is implemented and resourced. Too often the CAF is used to pass on responsibility to social care when help can be provided by other agencies.13 It is important that agencies understand the purpose of the CAF as a way to achieve a common assessment and agree a plan to meet identified needs. We have found that the role of a CAF coordinator can strengthen the process and provide support for other professionals. 2.7 Barnardo’s strongly supports continued use of the CAF, but we believe there is scope for it to be simplified and used more flexibly. CAF coordinators can help strengthen the process so that it is not used as a blunt referral tool. It is essential that the CAF is undertaken at the earliest point children and families come into contact with services and that plans are implemented and resourced.
Assessment 2.8 In recent years, a “tick box” approach has reduced assessment into a standardised process with set timescales. To move away from this approach, practitioners need to be trained in assessment skills and supported through regular supervision and peer review to develop their professional judgement. Assessment should be viewed as an ongoing process and regular opportunities to discuss and “critically reflect” are vital to help practitioners re-assess and remain objective.14 2.9 Children and families should be actively involved in the assessment process. Barnardo’s services have found that missed opportunities to gather information and views from family members, friends and other people known to the child, can impair assessment. In particular, it is common for agencies to overlook the role of fathers, male partners and other men living within families.15 A failure to engage effectively with fathers and men impairs the assessment and management of risk, as well as limiting the resources for the care and support of children.16 This is often related to concern about the risk that men pose to the children, but also to useful information that men can give agencies to help them understand the child’s situation.
Decision making 2.10 Practitioners need to be equipped with the right knowledge and skills to engage and communicate with children and families so that they can make sound judgements and assess both needs and risk.17 This needs to include the ability to foster effective relationships with children and families;18 observe children in different environments and use of creative methods of communication to ensure the child’s perspective informs decision making. In particular, more can be done to equip practitioners with the skills to communicate with very young children and children with disabilities who do not communicate verbally. 2.11 Analysis of serious case reviews show that a lack of focus on the child is common: children were not seen frequently enough or asked about their views and feelings; agencies did not listen to adults who tried to speak on behalf of children; parents and carers prevented professionals from doing so and practitioners focussed 12 Ofsted (2010) Learning lessons from serious case reviews 2009–10: Ofsted’s evaluation of serious case reviews from 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010 13 Holmes, L, Munro, E R and Soper, L (2010). Calculating the Cost and Capacity Implications for Local Authorities Implementing the Laming (2009) Recommendations. London LGA. 14 Munro, E (2011). The Munro Review of Child Protection: Final Report, A child-centred system, Department for Education. 15 The Voice of the Child: learning lessons from serious case reviews, Ofsted, (2011) 16 Featherstone, B, Rivett, M and Scourfield, J (2007). Working with Men in Health and Social Care, London, Sage. 17 Munro, E (2011). The Munro Review of Child Protection: Final Report, A child-centred system, Department for Education. 18 Laming, H (2009). The Protection of Children in England: a Progress Report (HC 330). London: The Stationary Office cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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too much on the needs of parents, overlooking the implications for the child.19 This evidence indicates that a greater understanding and sensitivity to children’s development and awareness of the impact of the care giving environments would have helped practitioners identify risk and actively support and protect the child. 2.12 There is a strong body of research which shows that good knowledge of child development and attachment theory helps support child-centered practice.20 A recent report that examined the link between knowledge of child development and serious incidents and deaths concluded that had child development knowledge been acted upon with more confidence, children from six serious case reviews might have been protected sooner or better.21 2.13 The Munro Review of Child Protection notes that improvement in child development knowledge and attachment is needed across social care; social workers are not being adequately trained in child development and there is evidence that training amongst other professional sectors, including education and health is inadequate.22 It is also important that legal professionals involved in the family court decision making process are informed about child development and attachment and understand the impact of delay (prevalent in the courts).23 Barnardo’s is concerned that currently this is not the case and would like to see the implementation of high quality training for all relevant court staff to improve their understanding of the impact of delay on child development.
Variations across the country 2.14 Barnardo’s is aware that there can be enormous variation in practice within single areas, as well as between them. In our experience, there can be disagreement between agencies about thresholds, for example between local authorities and independent agencies. This can lead to voluntary sector children’s services carrying the risk of supporting a child or young person who would be otherwise be referred to social services. We believe it is imperative that agencies work together to develop a shared understanding of thresholds. This understanding could shift over time, but evidence suggests that working in a more coordinated way helps agencies make appropriate referrals and ensure children receive appropriate help in a timely way.24 Overall, it is vital that referrals are made and accepted based on assessment of risk. (See also paragraphs, 4.8 & 4.9).
Question 3 3.1 The Children Act 1989 stipulates that there is a duty on local authorities to make all reasonable efforts to rehabilitate the child with his or her family, unless there is sufficient evidence that attempts to do so will no longer succeed.25 Barnardo’s firmly believes that families should be supported to stay together when to do so is in the best interests of the child.
3.2 However, the legislation is very clear that decisions about the removal of a child from their birth family should be determined by what is in the best interest for the welfare of the child. This principle sets out that the child’s welfare is “the paramount consideration” and the so called “welfare check list” says that the child’s wishes and feelings must be considered. It is important to note that the legitimacy of this principle has not been directly challenged either by the European Court of Human Rights or by the UK courts under the Human Rights Act.26 Importantly, parent’s wishes and feelings are not to be considered, just their capacity to meet the child’s needs.
3.3 Barnardo’s recognises that working with neglected children and their parents is far from easy. Use of the term “threshold” (when it is deemed appropriate for social care intervention) detracts from the reality that children often move across thresholds for intervention at different times. From our work we know that many children will need a greater level of intervention some times more than others, but they will always need a continuum of services. Some local areas have used the concept of stepping up or down, rather than a case being “open” or “closed”. This can help reflect the shifting levels of need and protection and the flexible approached those children may require. 19 Ofsted (2011) The voice of the child: learning lessons from serious case reviews and DfE (2010) Building on learning from serious case reviews: a two-year analysis of child protection database notifications 2007–9. 20 Davies, C, and Ward, H (2011). Safeguarding Children Across Services: Messages from Research on Identifying and Responding to Child Maltreatment. Executive Summary, Department for Education. 21 Brandon, M et al (2011). Child and family practitioners’ understanding of child development: Lessons learnt from a small sample of serious case reviews, Department for Education. https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/DFE- RR110.pdf 22 Munro, E (2011). The Munro Review of Child Protection: Final Report, A child-centred system, Department for Education. http://www.education.gov.uk/munroreview/downloads/8875_DfE_Munro_Report_TAGGED.pdf 23 Family Justice Review Interim Report (2011), Ministry of Justice, http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/publications/policy/moj/ family-justice-review-interim-rep.pdf 24 Munro, E (2011). The Munro Review of Child Protection: Final Report, A child-centred system, Department for Education. 25 The Children Act 1989 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/41/contents 26 For example in Re KD (A Minor) (Ward: Termination of Access) Lord Templeman said “In my opinion there is no inconsistency of principle or application between the English rule and the Convention rule”. Similarly, Lord Oliver observed: “Such conflict as exists is, I think, semantic only and lies only in differing ways of giving expression to the single common concept that the natural bond and relationship between parent and child gives rise to universally recognised norms which ought not to be gratuitously interfered with and which, if interfered with at all, ought to be so only if the welfare of the child dictates it.” cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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3.4 There is evidence to suggest that some practitioners have been reluctant to make proactive judgements to protect children from harm and that in too many cases there has been a “rule of optimism” in decision making.27 The studies have found that there is frequently a need for a decisive event, what has been labelled a “catapult”, for a case to trigger removal of a child and commencement of court proceedings. In particular, practitioners fail effectively to respond to on going chronic neglect which does not manifest itself in a specific incident of physical harm but is nevertheless extremely damaging for a child’s development.28 3.5 However, there is much debate about the increases in referrals, care applications and care orders in England since the tragic case of baby Peter. There is some evidence to suggest practitioners have been prompted to revaluate involvement with families and children and made care applications for reasons of chronic neglect. This may suggest that previous inaction was due to a lack of trigger or decisive event and that there may have been a case for care earlier.29 The number of children entering care for neglect has also been rising for the last few years.30 3.6 Research that shows that care can have a positive impact on children’s welfare; improve resilience and mitigate the effects of abuse and neglect.31 A report commissioned by Barnardo’s and conducted by Demos concluded that “on the whole care is a positive experience for most children and that it appears to either improve or at least not harm their welfare”.32 Barnardo’s believes that care should be viewed as a positive intervention. There is scope for the English care system to intervene earlier and meet children and families needs in a more flexible way, with greater continuity between family support services and a provision of a range of care placements.
Question 4 Universal and co-located services 4.1 The understanding and identification of need and first stage assessment of children at risk of harm must be shared by all agencies. It is right local authority children’s service retain ultimate responsibility for the protection and welfare of children. However, Barnardo’s believes that greater expectations must be placed on universal services, early years, schools, health, police and charities (including Childline) to undertake first stage assessments of vulnerable children and young people and identify appropriate means of providing interim support. 4.2 Intervening early through social workers/family support workers based in locality settings has huge benefits: universal services facilitate good assessments and building trust with families and enable earlier identification of child protection issues that might otherwise escalate.33 4.3 Barnardo’s Children’s Centres have a strong track record for delivering accessible, inclusive services and successfully engaging “hard to reach” groups.34 Barnardo’s South West, has developed a model of clustering Children’s Centres under the supervision of Barnardo’s expert Children’s Services Managers which enables staff to quickly access advice and support and work in partnership across the area. 4.4 We are also experienced at delivering targeted services within universal settings. Co-location of specific early intervention and outreach schemes within hospitals, schools and Children’s Centres facilitates integrated service delivery and multi-agency working, which research shows supports earlier identification and intervention.35 Barnardo’s and The Newcastle Teenage Pregnancy Support Team Barnardo’s young dad’s worker is co-located at a multi-disciplinary scan clinic, set up jointly by Barnardo’s in consultation with young people in 2002. Barnardo’s works as part of a team made up of a teenage pregnancy adviser and midwife, a Connexions worker, re-integration officer, midwife, sonographer and a receptionist. The team work in partnership with young parents, their carers and 27 See: Masson, J et al (2008). Care profiling study, London: Ministry of Justice; Dickens, J (2007) Child neglect and the law: Catapults, thresholds and delay, Child Abuse Review, 16, 77–92; Masson J et al (2007). Protecting Powers, Chichester: Wiley; Selwyn, J, Frazier, L and Quinton, D (2006). “Paved with Good Intentions: The Pathway to Adoption and the Cost of Delay”, British Journal of Social Work, 36, 561–576; Farmer, E and Lutman, E (2010). Case management and outcomes for neglected children returned to their parents: a five year follow-up study, London: DCSF. 28 Farmer, E and Lutman, E (2010). Case management and outcomes for neglected children returned to their parents: a five year follow-up study, London: DCSF. 29 Cafcass (2009) The “Baby Peter effect” and the increase in s31 care order applications http://www.cafcass.gov.uk/PDF/ Baby%20Peter%20exec%20summary%20final.pdf 30 DfE, “Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and care leavers)—year ending 31 March 2011” (28 September 2011) 31 Forrester et al (2009) What is the Impact of Public Care on Children’s Welfare? A Review of Research Findings from England and Wales and their Policy Implications 32 Hannon, C, Wood, C, Bazalgette (2010). In Loco Parentis, Demos. 33 Barlow, J and Scott, J (2010). Safeguarding in the 21st Century—Where to Now? Dartington: Research in Practice 34 Key groups for whom targeted initiatives have been developed include: children in need, children with special needs and disabilities, parents abusing drugs or alcohol, families in squalid housing, BME communities, recent immigrants and asylum seekers, isolated families in rural areas and fathers. 35 Stratham, J and Smith, M (2010). Issues in Earlier Intervention, Identifying and supporting children with additional needs, Thomas Coram Research Unit, Institute for Education, University of London, Department for Children, Schools and Families cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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families as well as partner agencies. Child protection concerns can be picked up through assessment and a care plan is agreed collaboratively by the team. Positive outcomes include: improved child-parent relationships, improved communication skills, reduced drug and alcohol abuse, increased access to help with health and emotional needs. Support for career pathways and employment and training is also offered and many young dads have re- engaged with education, and volunteered to offer peer-peer support.
Supporting professionals in universal services 4.5 Progress has been made in relation to training and development of non-social workers’ expertise, but more needs to be done to support professionals in universal services to actively identify children at risk and promote good child protection practice.36 The Lead Professional role in schools and elsewhere needs to be recognised and supported. GPs need to work closely with Children’s Centre staff, and the role they play in the identification and support of “at risk” children. 4.6 From our 16 years of experience of working with young people at risk of sexual exploitation, we know that schools provide a unique opportunity to identify signs of sexual exploitation at an early stage. Our research in this area has shown that one indicator of sexual exploitation is disengagement from education, and that keeping young people engaged in school can act as an important protective strategy.37 Furthermore, teachers and other education professionals, such as school nurses, are in a strong position to be able to note changes in behaviour or emotional wellbeing that can indicate a young person is being exploited. For example, we know that young people who are regularly absent from school may be particularly vulnerable to being targeted by perpetrators of sexual exploitation, or vulnerable to other types of negative influence and persuasion in the wider community. 4.7 Our practice has demonstrated that developing the right expertise helps professionals develop confidence in child protection issues and work in the interests of the child. For example, staff within universal services need to develop a good understanding of child development and children’s needs, in relation to attachment; the importance of stability and positive relationships. Safeguarding training should include: evidence of the impact of neglect and abuse and how to recognise and respond to low level concerns. This should complement basic skills training for working with children and families, including developing trust, listening skills and meaningful communication.
Multi-agency teams and streamlining referrals 4.8 In our experience, there are too many referrals and time spent passing the buck. More needs to be done to support the wider children’s and adult workforce to only make appropriate referrals to children’s social care. This can best be achieved by having one access point that holds the threshold criteria in one place. We have found that this avoids different interpretations of thresholds, allows for clear pathways to services and good multi agency understanding. 4.9 Barnardo’s supports multi-agency models that take a whole-family approach rather than a “team around the child” and so more effectively join up adult and children’s social services. A number of local authorities have developed intensive support programmes for families delivered by multi professional teams, for example the Westminster Recovery Programme.38 These programmes adopt a key worker led, co-ordinated package of support to families with multiple problems, including children who are on the edge of formal involvement with children’s social care. All local authorities need to be encouraged to retain and/or develop these models of family support services, in particular, strengthening collaborative work between adult and children’s social care. November 2011
Written evidence submitted by Refugee Children’s Consortium Introduction and Key Concerns 1. The Refugee Children’s Consortium (RCC) is a group of NGOs working collaboratively to ensure that the rights and needs of refugee children are promoted, respected and met in accordance with the relevant domestic, regional and international human rights and welfare standards. Our membership includes leading children’s and refugee NGOs, bringing together a significant body of expertise in dealing directly with asylum seeking children and safeguarding and promoting children’s welfare. 2. In considering the child protection system in England, we believe that the committee needs to take into account the experiences of asylum-seeking, refugee and migrant children and young people who are often at 36 Stockport NHS (2010) Safeguarding Children Annual Report and Care and Care Quality Commission (2009) Safeguarding Children: A Review of Arrangements in the NHS for Safeguarding Children. London: CQC 37 Scott S & Skidmore P (2006). Reducing the risk: Barnardo’s support for sexually exploited young people. A two year evaluation. Cut them free: the urgent need to cut children free from sexual exploitation. Barnardo’s: Barkingside. 38 See also: Centre for Excellence and Outcomes (2010) Promising Practice Details: a Mutli-disciplinary Approach to Early Intervention Family Support for Vulnerable Children and Families, Hammersmith and Fulham. London C4EO. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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risk of harm while being subject to immigration controls. Being seen as migrants first rather than children, decisions taken about their lives are frequently not conducive to their well-being and best interests, and often leave them at risk of serious, irreparable harm.
3. Our response details ways in which we feel that refugee and migrant children and young people are at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation; and how the practices of non-social work agencies and other government departments, including the UK Border Agency, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice, are currently not meeting their responsibilities towards these children.
4. The RCC is extremely concerned that the Home Office is not well placed to lead on policy for the care and support of separated refugee and migrant children, and that the exclusion of separated children from the Department for Education’s remit sends a powerful signal that these children matter less than others. The result is an emerging two-tier system for these children, so that they are still seen as immigrants first, rather than children, and do not receive the protection they need.
Private Fostering Arrangements
5. Considerable numbers of children in the UK are currently housed in unregistered private fostering arrangements. The charity Children and Families Across Borders (CFAB) estimates there are 10,000 unregistered Private Fostering Arrangements (PFAs) in the UK, with 4,000 of the children involved in these arrangements originating from outside of the UK.39 According to a recent report by CEOP on the nature of trafficking and exploitation of children within the home, child abuse through domestic servitude can occur in tandem with the commercial and economic exploitation of that child, including forced labour, begging and pretty crime, and sexual exploitation.40
6. The Children’s Society’s research “Hidden Children” in 200941 revealed that there is a lack of awareness about these young people among professionals and within the community, and their exploiters deliberately act to keep them and their treatment hidden. Some of these have not been brought to the UK to be trafficked— they may have been sent here to live with relatives or carers—but have ended up living in abusive private fostering arrangements. The children come from various countries and backgrounds and suffer many different types of exploitation, including domestic servitude, benefit fraud, sexual exploitation or prevention from going to school or accessing support. The research found that young people also stay in the abusive situation because they often don’t know their treatment is illegal, they risk being homeless if they run away, they fear that they will be deported or they don’t know anyone they can trust to disclose that they have been abused.
7. The current problems within legislation mean that once a child reaches the age of 16 (or 18 if the young person is disabled), private fostering monitoring ends. However, many young people who are 16 and 17 continue to live in abusive homes. This is despite the fact that the young person is still considered a child in the eyes of the law.
8. In reality, many of these children are not “hidden” at all and come into contact with professionals in schools, churches or GP clinics. When children do disclose they find that frontline workers are unwilling to help, disbelieve the seriousness of their situation and are unaware of where to refer them to for help. It is therefore important that awareness is raised among local and faith communities, health and educational settings and other professionals who interact with these children so they are better able to identify signs of exploitation, know who to notify and refer them to, and how best to support them. Although the government’s strategy on human trafficking commits to further explore how to raise awareness and vigilance in particular communities about the signs of trafficking, there are no specific measures aimed at improving monitoring of private fostering arrangements.
Recommendation: Local authorities should increase awareness of teachers, medical professions, faith and local communities to better identify and take action to support children that are being exploited including those that are in private foster arrangements through training and implementing appropriate monitoring arrangements.
9. In addition, there are misperceptions about the risks that older children in the UK generally experience, their ability to seek support and their levels of resilience. Research by The Children’s Society and NSPCC found that the needs of older children were not always met by child protection processes which are more geared to protecting younger children.42 Some professionals’ perceptions of the abilities of older children were problematic as 11–17 year olds were often seen as more competent to deal with maltreatment than younger children, including being able to escape abusive situations and seek help, as well as being perceived by some professionals as more “resilient”—ie more able to cope with experiences of maltreatment. These perceptions are not supported by research evidence on this topic. 39 CFAB (2010) 10,000 Invisible Children London: CFAB. 40 CEOP (2011) Hidden Children: The trafficking and exploitation of children within the home London: CEOP. 41 Wirtz, L (2009) Hidden children—Separated children at risk London: The Children’s Society. 42 Rees, G. et al (2010) Safeguarding young people: responding to young people aged 11 to 17 who are maltreated. London: Children’s Society, 2010. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Child Trafficking Perceived as Immigration Issue 10. While there are pockets of good practice, overwhelmingly statutory agencies still see child trafficking as an immigration issue rather than a child protection one and children’s services often refuse to help children if they do not have an immigration status or where they do not have documentation. However, local authorities have a statutory duty to protect the welfare of all children in the UK under the Children Act 1998, regardless of their immigration status or nationality. The Working Together Guidance also states that local agencies should give particular consideration to child victims of trafficking and unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. In addition, trafficked children who become looked after should have the same entitlement to care services as other looked after children. In practice though we see little effective cooperation between agencies to protect children and prosecute traffickers. Recommendation: Child trafficking and the care of all separated migrant children should come under the remit of the Children’s Minister in the Department for Education, ensuring that primacy is given to children’s safety and welfare over their immigration status. 11. The RCC believes that there is a conflict of interest in the UK Border Agency immigration officers (rather than child protection specialists) assessing whether an individual is a victim of trafficking as one of the two competent authorities for the National Referral Mechanism (NRM) while at the same time assessing credibility for immigration and asylum claims. The NRM was introduced in April 2009 to formally identify victims of trafficking following referrals from local authorities, police, immigration staff and selected voluntary organisations. 12. The Anti Trafficking Monitoring Group found that UK nationals (victims of “internal trafficking”) had a proportionally higher rate of acceptance that they were deemed to be a victim of trafficking with conclusive decisions being made without initial reasonable grounds decisions.43 Based on NRM data from 2009, the “positive identification” rate of victims of trafficking for referrals from UK citizens at 76% contrasts sharply with the “positive identification” rate of nationals from other EU countries at 29% and nationals from non-EU countries at only 12%. This suggests that immigration status and nationality may be significant in determining how some decisions are made by Competent Authorities and needs to be explored further. In addition, there is currently no formal appeal process so the only way a child can challenge a negative decision is through an application to the High Court. 13. There is a general lack of awareness of the National Referral Mechanism and a lack of trust in the process. The Anti Trafficking Monitoring Group found that more than 120 individuals who were identified by support organisations between April 2009 and April 2010 were not referred to the system for several reasons, but primarily because they did not see the benefit of being referred or were fearful of the consequences due to their immigration status.44 A recent inspection of Heathrow Terminal 3 revealed that staff there in the Children and Young People’s team had poor knowledge of the NRM.45 Where agencies are aware, there are serious concerns that a negative NRM decision could jeopardise the child’s access to services and the quality of their immigration decision, and therefore make an active choice not to refer children to the NRM.46 14. Reliable and representative data is needed in order to fully understand and confront the scale and nature of human trafficking. This must include sufficient and reliable intelligence on trafficked children, including data disaggregated by age, gender, nationality, and forms of exploitation. Recommendation: The government should establish an independent National Rapporteur on Trafficking and Exploitation, with a specific focus on children that ensures the systematic collection, monitoring and analysis of comprehensive and disaggregated data, and accountability to parliament.
Age Disputes 15. An ongoing child protection concern for those working with children in the asylum and immigration process is the issue of age disputes47 which can leave already vulnerable children at risk of serious harm, and further exploitation and abuse particularly if they find themselves detained, destitute or unable to access the support they need. Although rates have declined in the last five years, still an average of 28% of those who present as separated children claiming asylum have their age challenged by the UK Border Agency each year.48 Over the last five years, around 1,200 children each year who have applied for asylum have had their age disputed. 16. RCC members have supported numerous clients who have been made destitute, detained or accommodated as adults but later identified as children. For example, in 2010, the Refugee Council supported 43 Anti Trafficking Monitoring Group (2010) Wrong kind of victim? One year on: an analysis of UK measures to protect trafficked persons London: Anti-Slavery International for the Anti-Trafficking Monitoring Group. Pg 26. 44 Ibid pg 7. 45 HM Chief Inspector of Prisons (2011) Report on an unannounced inspection of the short-term holding facility at: Heathrow Airport Terminal 3, London: HM Government. 46 ECPAT (2010) Child Trafficking in the UK: A Snapshot, London: ECPAT. 47 Puffet, N. (2011, June 16) Trafficked girl wins age dispute case against council. Children and Young People Now. www.cypnow.co.uk; Refugee Council (2010) Age-disputed child asylum seeker left without care: Refugee Council response; Crawley, H. (2007) When is a child not a child? Asylum, age disputes and the process of age assessment. London: ILPA. 48 Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Supplementary Tables. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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38 children in immigration detention who had been wrongly judged to be adults by their local authority or immigration officials—only 27 of these were released from detention.49 17. In addition, children may have their age disputed by local authorities with catastrophic consequences. In 2010, a report from the Local Government Ombudsman50 revealed that due to poor practice by Liverpool City Council, an unaccompanied child seeking asylum was left without care and vulnerable to abuse for 15 months when she was wrongly believed to be over 18. She was later re-assessed by a different council who found her to be 16, and this was shown to be accurate from documents later obtained from her country. By this time she was pregnant and receiving therapy for sexual abuse and having been subjected to witchcraft practices. 18. The Refugee Children’s Consortium is greatly concerned that in many similar age dispute cases the safety of children seeking protection is often overlooked. As there is no central mechanism for monitoring the outcomes of these disputes or the cases in which a child’s age is challenged by the local authority, it’s impossible to accurately assess the scale of the problem or development of practice in this area. 19. There is a very entrenched belief among some officials and statutory agencies that the majority of age- disputed young people are adults posing as children, and children are too often not given the benefit of the doubt leading to their age being disputed. The UKBA says that adults posing as children create a child protection risk if they are accommodated with other children, but such accommodation is in a supervised setting where social services are responsible for children’s welfare and safety. By contrast, when children are wrongly assessed and mistreated as adults they are accommodated in an adult setting with none of the specialist provision for supervising let alone ensuring their welfare and safety. They may also be detained with adults. Given the examples and evidence highlighted above of the potential irreparable damage caused to children who are wrongly assessed, the application of the benefit of the doubt is vital. In particular, physical appearance is not an accurate indicator of chronological age and therefore should not be overly relied upon. The “benefit of the doubt” needs to be given at the initial screening stage. 20. Despite the fact the government has committed to ending child detention, the RCC is concerned that children whose ages have been disputed will continue to be detained until the process of age assessments is overhauled.
Section 55 Duty 21. Since the introduction of the Section 55 (Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009) statutory duty and guidance in November 2009, a series of recent judgements by the courts illustrate how the actions or inactions of the UK Border Agency have routinely failed to take into account the best interests of the child, leading to decisions which have raised serious safeguarding concerns. For example, in R (Suppiah & Ors),51 the Administrative Court found the detention of two families to be unlawful by reason of the failure to comply with the Section 55 duty. 22. Numerous research studies52 have highlighted that the experience of detention, even for a relatively brief period of time, has a detrimental effect on the mental and physical health of children. Its effects include weight loss, sleeplessness, bed-wetting, nightmares, skin complains and severe mental health difficulties including self-harm, depression and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Research indicates that detention, particularly over longer periods of time, is a highly traumatic experience for asylum seekers who have generally also experienced pre-migration and flight trauma.53 23. In recognition of this evidence, the coalition government pledged to end this “state-sponsored cruelty”54 by promising to end the immigration detention of children in May 2010. Although some progress has been made, such as the closure of the Yarl’s Wood family unit where children and families were previously detained for long periods of time, the Government opened a new family detention facility in Crawley, Sussex in September 2011. This centre is described by the Government as “Pre-Departure Accommodation”, however, the centre is secure and has areas where families and individuals can be held in isolation. Families will be detained there under existing Immigration Act powers and will be inspected by the Chief Inspector of Prisons. A time limit of one week has been set on child detention although this has not as yet been circumscribed in legislation. The Refugee Children’s Consortium is extremely disappointed that the Government has not fulfilled its commitment to end child detention and we have set out a series of recommendations in our briefing document.55 24. Members of the consortium are concerned about a range of other ways in which the UKBA and statutory agencies are not meeting their duty to keep children in the immigration and asylum system safe. There is 49 Refugee Council (2010) Young Refugee Council client describes detention ordeal in Dispatches documentary. 50 Local Government Ombudsman (2010) Report on an investigation into complaint no 08 005 858 against Liverpool City Council. 51 R (Suppiah & Ors) v SSHD [2010] EWHC 11 (Admin), January 2011. 52 Crawley, H and Lester, T (2005) No Place for a Child. Children in UK immigration detention: Impacts, alternatives and safeguards. London: Save the Children; Lorek, A et al (2009) The mental and physical health difficulties of children held within a British immigration detention center: A pilot study. Child Abuse and Neglect, 33, pp. 573–585. Burnett, J, et al (2010) “State Sponsored Cruelty”: Children in immigration detention. London: Medical Justice. 53 Knight, A (2011) What have I done? The experiences of children and families in UK immigration detention: Lessons to learn. London: The Children’s Society. 54 BBC News (2009, December 15) Nick Clegg urges end to child detention “cruelty”. BBC News. 55 Refugee Children’s Consortium (2011) Briefing on Immigration Detention of Children September 2011. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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particular concern for children, young people and families who are made destitute and unable to access basic essentials, such as food, housing, clothing and nappies they need to survive56 leaving them vulnerable to abuse and exploitation.
Recommendation: The RCC is calling for an independent review into the implementation of the Section 55 duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children.
Legal Aid Cuts
25. The Refugee Children’s Consortium57 is also very concerned that children’s safety will be further compromised by limiting their access to legal remedies due to with the changes to be made by the Ministry of Justice in the current Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Under the current proposals legal aid will no longer be provided for 6,000 children and 69,000 young people (18–24 year olds) in significant areas of law including immigration which will have implications for children’s welfare and safety. This is likely to have a particular effect on separated migrant children and victims of trafficking, as well as many more children within families who will suffer as a knock-on effect from their parents being unable to access legal aid.
26. While in the Bill there is provision for “children who are parties to family proceedings”, and “unlawful removal of children from the United Kingdom” by their parents, legal aid is not to be provided if they are party to immigration proceedings. However, the Supreme Court and its predecessor have highlighted that there will be family removals cases where the child needs separate representation and where children’s safety is at risk. For example, in EM (Lebanon),58 removal of the child and his mother to Lebanon by the UK Border Agency would have resulted in his custody being given to his estranged and abusive father with permanent separation from his mother. In ZH (Tanzania),59 the effect of the children’s mother’s removal would either be to separate the British children from their mother or to remove them from their settled life in the UK and their father.
27. These cases involve international and domestic obligations concerning the best interests of the child and the safety and welfare of children. The Refugee Children’s Consortium believes that the impact on children subject to immigration control will be extreme and that the Ministry of Justice has not taken into account the impact on children’s welfare or their specific rights under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, despite a commitment from the Government earlier this year stating to give “due consideration to the UNCRC Articles when making new policy and legislation”.60 We would urge the Committee to explore this matter further.
Recommendation: Amendments should be made to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill to ensure that children, young people and families are able to access legal help and representation to put forward claims in all immigration cases.
Members of the Refugee Children’s Consortium:
Action for Children; Asphaleia Action; Asylum Aid; AVID (Association of Visitors to Immigration Detainees); Bail for Immigration Detainees, BASW—The College of Social Work; BAAF (British Association for Adoption and Fostering); Catch 22; Children and Families Across Borders; Coram Children’s Legal Centre; Child Poverty Action Group; Children’s Rights Alliance for England; The Children’s Society; DOST, Family Rights Group; The Fostering Network; The Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association (ILPA); JCORE; Medical Justice; The Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture; National Care Advisory Service; NCB; The Prince’s Trust; RAMFEL; Refugee Council; Refugee Support Network; Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health; Scottish Refugee Council; Student Action for Refugees (STAR); Voice; The Who Cares Trust; Welsh Refugee Council.
The British Red Cross; Barnardo’s; Office of the Children’s Commissioner (England); UNICEF UK and UNHCR all have observer status. November 2011
56 The Children’s Society (2010) Destitution Amongst Asylum-seeking and Refugee Children. Birmingham: The Children’s Society. 57 Memorandum submitted on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill by the Refugee Children’s Consortium in July 2011: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmpublic/legalaid/memo/la37.htm 58 EM (Lebanon) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2008] UKHL 64. 59 ZH (Tanzania) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2011] UKSC 4. 60 Written Ministerial Statement from the Department for Education in response to the independent review of the Children’s Commissioner: http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/w/ written%20ministerial%20statement%20%20%20office%20of%20the%20childrens%20commissioner.pdf cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence submitted by Against Violence and Abuse 1. Background AVA (Against Violence & Abuse), formerly GLDVP, was formed in April 2010 to take over the work of the GLDVP previously in existence for 12 years. AVA is a national second tier service working to end all forms of violence against women and girls. Building on the success and achievements of the GLDVP the key aims of AVA are: — To challenge, enable, encourage and support all agencies and communities to contribute to achieving our vision of a world free from violence against women and girls. — To offer a range of high quality and expert services to facilitate specialist and generic agencies to contribute towards our vision. — To identify and fill gaps in the field, find innovative solutions to current and emerging situations and inspire an effective strategic approach to reducing and preventing violence against women and girls. In line with the United Nation’s Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, AVA understands the term “violence against women and girls” to encompass domestic violence, sexual violence including sexual harassment, so-called honour based violence, female genital mutilation and forced marriage, prostitution and trafficking. Reflecting AVA’s expertise, our response to the inquiry reflects our belief that violence against women and girls is a key child protection issue that should be tackled at both a national and local level.
2. General Comments About the Enquiry Rather than respond to the suggested questions in the inquiry, we feel our expertise is best used by raising some key issues that we feel are relevant and should be taken into consideration when reviewing the child protection system in England. Whilst we are encouraged by the detail provided in the most recent version of “Working Together to Safeguard Children”, in terms of responding to domestic violence and children, we are concerned that children are facing much wider issues and that as good as the guidance is, many practitioners on the frontline are not equipped with the specialist knowledge needed to respond to these cases as they arise. We have categorised our main concerns into six priority areas:
(i) Violence against women and girls (VAWG) as a child protection issue VAWG needs to be seen and understood as a child protection issue. There may be different resources available, different professionals involved and different legal definitions but, if we combine our understanding of child abuse with vawg in terms of why it happens, who is doing it, what it is and what effects it has, then we can see that there are many similarities not least of which is that there is a shared cause, that is, an abuse of male power. Using this approach of seeing the different forms of abuse as overlapping and connected, rather than as distinct and separate also places the issue of woman abuse and child abuse within a social and political context that does not result in the common conclusion of holding survivors of such abuse responsible for both its occurrence and also for stopping it. Understanding and challenging the power which some men exercise over both women and children in the family, and wider society, is crucial to the development of child protection policies and practices which genuinely protect children. In our experience of working in schools to educate young people about abuse, we have found that many teachers are unsure about how to respond to disclosures of abuse. They do not seem to see it as a child protection issue like any other they may encounter. Additionally, gender based abuse is often not mentioned in child protection policy and procedures. The impacts of vawg related issues on children and young people can have a devastating impact and as such they need to be protected as they would be from bullying or neglect etc.
(ii) Prevalence These statistics serve to highlight how commonplace domestic violence and wider vawg issues are in our society and the hugely detrimental impact they have on children and young people: — One in five (18.6%) 11–17 year olds have been physically attacked by an adult, sexually abused, or severely neglected at home (NSPCC, 2011). — Over a quarter (26%) of young adults reported that physical violence sometimes took place between those caring for them during childhood. For 5% this violence was constant or frequent (Cawson, 2002). — In 40% to 66% of domestic abuse cases, the same man is also directly abusing the children (Edelson, J L, 1999). cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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There is a strong correlation between domestic violence and child maltreatment: — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been neglected, 88% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 59% the violence was constant or frequent; — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been physically abused, 75% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 36% the violence was constant or frequent; — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been emotionally abused, 71% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 48% the violence was constant or frequent; — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been sexually abused, 54% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 20% the violence was constant or frequent (Cawson, 2002); — research has identified that teenage partner violence is associated with a range of adverse outcomes for young people, including mental health, depression and suicide (Collin-Vézina, D et al 2006); — a survey of 600 11–16 year olds found 17% had been forced into sex (AVA, 2011); and — an online poll of 16–18 year olds found that 40% of girls had been coerced or pressured into sex, 42% of girls had been hit by boyfriends and 59% of young people felt they did not have enough information to advise their friends if they were experiencing abuse (EVAW, 2006).
(iii) Women-blaming attitudes It is widely accepted that the most effective way to protect children is to support non-abusing mothers in protecting both the children and themselves. However, in practice it seems that many professionals seem to place the responsibility on leaving an abusive relationship solely with the victim (who is primarily a woman). This can also lead to mothers being seen as “failing to protect” their children by not protecting them from, or indeed ending, the violence. Mothers are often told to leave their abusive partner for the sake of the children, and yet are also conversely told by the courts that this man (who was deemed to dangerous to live with) must have contact with the children (please see point five for more details on child contact and risk). We believe that in general the protection of children from abuse is not separable from the protection of women from violence; policies and projects aimed at protecting children are likely to be effective only to the extent that they are based on this recognition. We are pleased that section 9.21 of Working Together to Safeguard Children recognises the impact that abuse can have on a mothers parenting capacity and urge this to be a core part of social work training.
(iv) Multiple needs Research illustrates how experiences of violence against women are linked to increased substance use and negative impacts on mental health. Many children are living with multiple complex issues at home. When domestic violence and parental drug or alcohol misuse coexist the effect on all aspects of children’s lives is more serious. We would encourage this review to highlight the benefit of addressing vawg issues, drugs and alcohol and mental health holistically with survivors/mothers and perpetrators/fathers as a good way of supporting child protection. One way this can be achieved is by using multi-agency teams (as highlighted in the Munro review) which can allow a much more thorough, nuanced risk assessment. For instance, a drug worker assessing the risk related to substance use rather than a children’s social worker. It is also vital to ensure that there is multi- agency representation on the MARAC’s and LSCB’s in order to share information and best practice and to ensure that children’s voices are at the heart of any work taking place with a family. It is also important that when any agency is undertaking a risk assessment, that these co-existing issues are screened for. For instance; midwives screening for domestic violence during ante-natal appointments; drugs projects screening for domestic violence etc. However, staff need to be properly trained in order to do this safely. AVA offer specialist cross sector training to help meet this need.
(v) Child contact and post separation risk Studies have shown that violent men often use their status as a parent to continue physical and verbal abuse of their children's mothers after she has left, to abduct children and use them as hostages in attempts to force the mother to return to the relationship, to grill children for information about their mothers, and to manipulate legal proceedings relating to childcare in an attempt to involve the courts in continued harassment of the mother. There have also been many cases whereby children have been killed on contact visits. Whilst separation is a positive outcome for an abusive relationship, practitioners need to understand that it can also be the most dangerous time for a woman and her children in terms of potential injury and/or homicide. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Therefore, if practitioners are pressing a woman to leave the relationship, they need to have a safety plan in place to make sure this can be done with minimum risk. Even now, this is still not widely understood and many professionals attending our training request detailed information on how to ensure this happens. If child contact is ordered, there must be provision for this to take place in a supervised environment with properly trained staff facilitating. Children’s wishes and needs must also be taken into account more than they are currently.
(vi) Prevention and Intervention We encourage this review to consider reviewing the child protection training available for professionals working with children and young people. We offer specialist training for teachers, social workers, police and other agencies who often tell us that our course was the first time they were properly trained in how to respond to vawg issues and children. Given that these professionals will be dealing with these issues on an almost daily basis, it seems ludicrous that they are not being given the specialist skills and information needed. It should not fall to small voluntary sector agencies to make up for this short fall. We believe that vawg training needs to be a core module in all initial training for relevant professional courses as well as continuing professional development. Staff need to be trained to recognise warning signs of abuse, learn how to confidentially challenge abuse when they are aware of it, model respectful relationships and respond to disclosures appropriately. There is a clear need for more support services for children and young people who experience or witness forms of vawg. However, these services need to be provided not just to break some mythical cycle of abuse but because these children have been hurt and because it is a basic human right to live your life free from violence and fear. It seems that in general, child protection involves working directly with children and young people who have been abused and are at risk of further abuse. We propose that we must also protect and educate children who have not been abused so that educating children and young people in schools about domestic violence, for example, is seen as an essential component of a child protection. The two issues of educating children and young people about domestic violence and providing support services for those children to whom it is occurring, cannot be separated. Only when we include children and young people in our efforts to reduce and finally eradicate forms of vawg will we be successful. They are already part of the group experiencing domestic violence they can and should be part of the solution. AVA has produced a set of proposed procedures for safeguarding children affected by domestic violence which we would encourage the review to take into consideration. http://www.avaproject.org.uk/media/15627/lscpprocedures.pdf November 2011
Written evidence submitted by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) Foreword by Dr Amanda Thomas The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health is a charity established by Royal Charter representing over 13,000 paediatricians in the UK and overseas. We are a professional body seeking to ensure the best outcomes for children and young people and undertake a range of child protection policy work to achieve this. As Child Protection Officer for the College, I hope you find this submission useful and I am keen to engage further with the Select Committee inquiry on the issues below.
Effective identification of, and early help to, children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation The current systems may not be effective in effectively identifying children at risk and providing timely preventative interventions. There has been a vast increase in referrals, and subsequent assessment, since November 2009, which has arguably overwhelmed many local authorities. This has consequently affected health professionals, including doctors, who are facing an increase in the number of children requiring paediatric examination, and experiencing raised thresholds for referral when they have concerns. Many authorities are, due to increased workload and diminishing resource, focusing on children in need of direct protection, thus diluting early intervention and help. Also, reduced social care resource may also be leading to difficulties in accessing services for children in need. Identification is, in part, adversely affected by workload. Professionals may find it difficult to recognise subtle evidence of abuse when reactive demands reduce the time available to analyse the evidence or discuss findings with specialist colleagues. Moreover, social care workloads mean that preventative work can be difficult to arrange (such as support for parents with learning difficulties or those with complex or difficult backgrounds). The availability of time is an ongoing problem; one example being the lack of time available to properly complete a CAF. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Systems can appear to be very reactive, and some professionals report that few public health approaches aimed at primary prevention exist. Services tend to be targeted towards low prevalence/high severity abuse, usually involving a single event, rather than the continuum of neglect or emotional abuse which might most effectively be picked up by health professionals. With neglect being the most common form of abuse, and being the most difficult to identify conclusively, it is important that services are maintained and enhanced in attempting early identification. The Common Assessment Framework, although well-intentioned, is seen by some as unwieldy and inflexible so it becomes a barrier to effective joint working. The Munro Review recommends that central prescription is reduced and local areas adopt systems suitable to them. We have seen evidence of other models being initiated, such as the family action model in Bolton and Salford, although success often relies on an effective multiagency locality team, and it is important that in designing local tools the benefit of a common form for inter-locality referral and information sharing is not compromised. Effective early intervention requires good communication and appropriate information sharing between agencies. For example, the lack of integration between information systems can reduce information flow. A specific example of this is when a full chronology of the child is unavailable, such as when children present to different GP practices or out of hours. It is also important that systems differentiate between children that are automatically in need, such as children with disabilities, and those who are in need for other reasons. Effective early identification requires robust universal health services. It is important that health visitors and school nurses, in particular, do not become overwhelmed with large and complex case loads at the higher end of need as this leaves little capacity for early help. There is concern amongst some professionals that the proposed increase in the health visitor workforce may not result in more frontline practitioners given the increased case management responsibilities. The NHS has myriad priorities and it can be difficult to ensure that children and young people are recognised as a high-priority group. Adult health services and acute children’s health services may take priority in local areas rather than the protection, prevention and safeguarding of health and wellbeing. Commissioning and funding of children’s services are often part of block contract arrangements, and it is difficult to identify levels of provision and spend on child protection services. Local child protection services within the NHS are often identified through joint boards such as the Local Safeguarding Children’s Board (LSCB). However, such arrangements are often outside the standard NHS contract process and established without formal joint commissioning and funding contracts being in place. It is crucial that funding for child protection services, as with other children’s services in the NHS, is clearly identified and ringfenced. One area of care that should be scoped and funded appropriately is out of hours services. Commissioning and funding for complex NHS services which support children and young people at risk of different forms of abuse must not be undervalued, which some believe has been the case. This has been compounded by recent withdrawals of funding as a result of financial pressures. It is important to recognise the true costs, as well as the benefits of providing appropriate acute and ongoing NHS care in these complex areas and to ensure that they are recognised as a priority within the health reforms. New NHS commissioning organisations must invest in these services in the future to ensure stability of interventions and thresholds. Finally, it is important that agencies and professionals work jointly as emerging forms of abuse and exploitation. One example may be online exploitation, particularly with regard to mental health and wellbeing.
Factors affecting the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment Different professional groups, by nature, have different thresholds. This may be for a range of reasons. One example may be that some GPs and teachers may have higher thresholds given their relationships with families, and they are comfortable and suitably trained to carry a higher level of need in the interests of integrated care. They may be more likely to recognise concerns about a child or family but not refer until a higher threshold has been reached. Equally, managing risk (and thus have a higher threshold) can be affected by professional culture and what people are “used to”. For example, health visitors may be content to carry more risk than others, although there needs to be absolute agreed clarity on the level of risk and threshold for referral. Decision-making relies on professional judgement, which is extremely hard to standardise. Standardised processes and tools are useful up to a certain point, but there must always be capacity in the system for intuition and judgement. Tools can encourage clarity of thought which can then support (but not substitute for) effective judgement. Improving professional judgement can also be achieved by attaining appropriate competences (with those competences being adequately ‘tested’) and by engaging with support processes such as peer review and clinical supervision. Interpreting words and concepts such as ‘significant harm’ inevitably cause local differentiations. Factors such as the calibre of local safeguarding professionals (such as named and designated professionals in health) can make a real difference in ensuring standardisation. Models such as multiagency teams and also feedback mechanisms between agencies post referral, on outcome and reasons to increase mutual understanding, would also help. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Many professionals report considerable differences exist between local authority districts in response to referrals. In one example, a paediatrician working in an outpatient assessment services to two local authorities indicated that, despite approximately equal child populations, the referrals were split 9:1 across the two areas. Although one area is a city with pockets of deprivation and the other part of a shire county, the clinician felt that the difference in referral rates could not be explained by levels of deprivation alone. As stated previously, areas may be struggling to maintain services due to staffing changes and reductions and the focus. The adverse consequence of this is that improvements in decision-making may not be being made. Availability of staff against workload can affect decision-making and factors such as seasonal variations and sickness levels can alter thresholds. For example, one professional reported that their local area had 10 out of 12 children’s social care professionals away from work for a variety of reasons over the winter months, resulting in threshold changes and increased demand on health visiting services. Quality of decision making can be affected by both time and training. One contributor reported that, in winter, any time release for training for nurses is cancelled due to staffing shortages. The RCPCH, alongside others, has developed a safeguarding competences and training framework to support professionals.61 However, training has a financial impact and is not income-generating so is naturally at risk in the current economic climate. Some professionals report that, unless a referral report was well-written and gave a firm view that abuse was probable, there was a risk that no adequate investigation would follow. It therefore essential for paediatricians to recognise the importance of giving as clear an opinion as possible, where they can, when it appears a child has suffered inflicted injury. Routine inclusion of clinicians in strategy discussions when it is likely that a medical examination would be needed should be a requirement, and factored into commissioning arrangements. This would ensure that accurate and timely decision-making in the best interests of the child is made by all professionals involved. A lack of clear guidance on effective practice, and difficulties in embedding guidelines into local arrangements may contribute to variation, and the lack of provision of professional support/training and/or arrangements to enable specialisation where this would enable effective practice are also factors. Another factor affecting decision-making is the willingness of staff to undertake work that is not formally commissioned (but part of an under-specified, general block contract) where high levels of risk and stress may be prevalent. One possible solution may be for local authority children’s social care to use a triage system, which may help to allocate cases appropriately so that most effective outcome can be achieved. Anecdotal evidence also suggested that there may also be considerable variation across the country in decision-making around Serious Case Reviews.
Appropriate thresholds for intervention The threshold for intervention for severe or repeated physical abuse or incontrovertible sexual abuse may be relatively clear, but this forms a minority of the total number of referrals. The thresholds for neglect and emotional abuse, which form the majority, are very variable and there appears to be a reluctance to pursue interventions such as removal from parents. The threshold for investigation may be different in affluent parts compared to areas of deprivation. Removing children from families is a difficult issue—it is seen by some as a “punishment” for the family and some potential referrers may consider this a factor. Further, the police arrest parents before interviewing them in cases of suspected abuse and this may potentially influence thresholds for referral, given the “punishment” to the family. Thresholds may be raised when a lack of staffing causes difficulty in managing assessments and intervention. Further, some professionals report thresholds can differ when there is a lack of confidence in the quality of placements outside the family. There may be considerable variation in the threshold for accepting a referral, but variations in decisions to remove children may be less varied.
Partners and professionals working together in the interests of the child It is important to ensure that the entire network of national and local organisations have in place policies and practices to work together in the interests of the child. This may include all government departments, plus the Local Government Association of England, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Royal Colleges, the Faculty of Forensic and Legal Medicine and the voluntary sector. These practices will of course be supplemented by organisation-specific areas of interest. Without a national and local coordinated approach, and without adequate ongoing funding, professionals may continue to struggle to work together despite their best intentions. 61 http://www.rcpch.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Safeguarding%20Children%20and%20Young%20people%202010%20final_v2.pdf cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Health professionals sometimes feel that legal professionals and family courts make decisions which seem inconsistent with what both health and social care professionals may regard as appropriate. Better mutual understanding of roles, responsibilities and working practices would foster understanding and allay fears and concerns. It is important that partners are active members of LSCBs and have established internal policies and practices which are in keeping with those of the LSCB. It is likely that there is variation across the country on this issue, although marked improvements in police collaboration were stated by some contributors. It is important for all partners to recognise the excellent resources and skills that non-government, particularly third sector organisations, have and that these can be used for teaching and learning, as well as research. It is important to build relationships with these organisations to ensure shared learning and to foster collaboration. It is important that there is integration and collaboration across government departments, notably the Department of Health and the Department for Education, to ensure clear ministerial responsibility and user involvement. This also applies to government agencies such as the UK Border Agency. In Manchester, one contributor felt that, at times, social care professionals do not take account of assessments and intervention undertaken by other professionals. However, it was noted that co-location in Trafford has helped and professionals have a much better knowledge of each other's work and greater respect for each other. Lack of good inter-agency communication and lack of staffing are the main barriers to good practice. One example of good practice being lost is the dilution of the Whittington Hospital’s social care team. This risks ultimately affecting the quality of decision making in referral and assessment as well as thresholds for referral, investigation and intervention. Co-location can often enhance close joint working. Multidisciplinary teams are showing good early results. Evidence we received illustrated that protected time is given for peer discussion and allows for concerns to be voiced. Professional judgement is respected and open discussions allows for open and reflective thought. This allows child protection to be integrated into everyday practice and allows professionals to understand each others’ roles and shared learning. It enables social workers to point out aspects of the case that clinicians haven’t picked up on, and allows for social care staff to understand when clinicians cannot be certain about injuries. The changes in the NHS risk undermining good practice, particularly the possible rapid increase in new providers gaining contracts. The role of designated professionals in commissioning has been hard to establish in practice, and needs to be maintained both in ensuring that safeguarding children is integral within all contracts, and in monitoring compliance with the safeguarding aspects of those contracts. When local authorities commission services from health providers (for example drug and alcohol services), it is important that there is appropriate oversight from professionals with knowledge and experience in safeguarding children. Some health professionals believe this could be improved. Professionals in Education are in a unique position with regard to safeguarding—they are trusted and known professionals who see children on a regular basis without the parents/carers being present. Professionals need to be supported to ensure they are confident in how to receive subtle disclosures and early warning signs and know exactly how to action those concerns. There needs to be absolute clarity about when to break confidence and when to act without necessarily informing parents first when this is in the best interests of the child's safety. Understanding their area of expertise (and limits) and playing a full part in multiagency working would make a real difference. Further, it is important to support GPs in understanding when child protection concerns override confidentiality, and when to share information, especially about adults in a family. It is necessary to consider the education system reforms and the role that free schools and academies (with increased financial freedoms and a more autonomous relationship with local authorities) will have in early intervention and preventative work, and wider child protection work. All professionals need to have the confidence to challenge and escalate concerns if they feel decisions are wrong. A robust supervision structure and support for raising concerns about other staff members would also improve practice. November 2011
Written evidence submitted by Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) and National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health is a charity established by Royal Charter representing over 13,000 paediatricians in the UK and overseas. We are a professional body seeking to ensure the best outcomes for children and young people and undertake a range of child protection policy work to achieve this. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children is a registered charity aiming to end cruelty to children in the UK. It delivers services, provides support for children, adults and professionals, and campaigns for changes to legislation, policy and practice in order to keep children safe. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Following the coalition agreement and the Munro Review, there is a move towards local determination of child protection policies and practices. It is important to consider how local approaches can be coordinated to share learning and best practice, and how the functions of oversight and challenge can be effectively protected. If safeguarding is not championed by commissioners and other local decision-makers, there is a risk that services will not be developed and improved. We recognise that the workforce has developed its knowledge of child protection significantly in recent years. Emergency care settings and General Practice in particular have demonstrated huge progress in child protection work. They have a continuing role to play given that many families present to them, including the treatment of adults where the child(ren) may be at risk, one potent example being alcohol and substance misusing adults. This cultural shift must be protected and not lost amidst new quality indicators for emergency care, and commissioning arrangements for primary care. Despite notable improvements, contributors felt that current reforms are increasing the risks to children,as professionals are seeking early retirement and services being reconfigured. Contributors felt this was leading to a loss of “organisational memory”; professionals becoming demoralised and insecure, and an emergence of new silos which may hinder effective joint working. It is crucial in the early stages of reform to take action to ensure that children, and child protection work, are central to the agenda of emerging responsible bodies in the NHS, such as Health and Wellbeing Boards, Clinical Commissioning Groups and HealthWatch. Monitor and the NHS Commissioning Board have a key role to play in ensuring that appropriate safeguarding provision is included in contractual agreements and reform is sufficiently focused on improving services and outcomes for children and young people. Wider public sector reforms risk fragmentation and loss of the benefit of recent progress, for example in consistent cross-agency relationships between professionals built up over many years and the trust this has engendered. During the current period of transition, there is thus a clearly identified risk to partnership working, including a greater reticence to share information as structures change, and increased pressure of work leading to loss of intuition and follow-up of areas of possible concern. An issue in the health reforms, as well as in social care, is the conflation of adult’s and children’s safeguarding services. Health and Wellbeing Boards will cover both population groups and it is important that child protection should be a specific and discrete priority for them. The removal of the statutory duty for local authorities to have a Children’s Trust structure, and the emerging evidence that many local authorities are merging directorates, is worrying, as both these developments dilute the focus on children. There are also concerns about the interface in health between adult’s and children’s services, particularly in the area of substance misuse. The ‘think family’ approach, used for example in mental health service provision, can work well and should be encouraged, but is not the same as merging posts and responsibilities. Information sharing continues to be a problem, despite system reforms. Professionals remain unclear about when, how and what information can be disclosed, for example when balancing the need to share information with the duty of confidentiality held by doctors. Many Serious Case Reviews (SCRs) report communication failure, but it is extremely rare for any SCRs reporting harm to a child because data has been shared inappropriately. There is continuing confusion about the continuum of need, ranging from child protection through to safeguarding. Professionals are unclear about where child protection work “stops” and where safeguarding “starts”. Leadership and training are levers to engender understanding, but there should be high-level agreement between partners as to the areas of focus in times of fiscal austerity and huge organisational change. Child protection work is not core business for many professionals, such as those working in health. It is often seen by professionals as a ‘burden’ and an added workload which is not accounted for in job plans. This reinforces the need for an effective embedded system supporting the individual and for guidance that sets out clear responsibilities for all professionals working with children. In this regard, we welcome the forthcoming revision of the current statutory guidance on child protection, Working Together to Safeguard Children, as the guidance has been outdated by rapid-paced reforms and the language can be difficult to interpret in the current climate. However, guidance and protocols can help professionals to do their job and to help keep children safe. Government should exercise caution when considering which aspects of bureaucracy and guidance to keep and which to remove. It is also crucial that Working Together is appropriately enforced. This principle also applies to meeting the standards set out in primary legislation, such as the Children Acts of 1989 and 2004, particularly at a time of reduced capacity. It is vital that national government and frontline practitioners have a shared understanding of the importance of the paramountcy of the child, as set out in legislation. The role of clinical leadership, in the form of named and designated professionals in health, is one vital example of this. Designated professional roles in particular, when clearly defined, focused on commissioning, embedded in local areas and given the responsibility and authority to influence strategic direction, can make a real difference to child protection practice, and usefully guide and inform individuals’ professional judgement. However, the current statutory guidance is in some areas being misinterpreted in relation to designated professionals and appropriate coverage. The current clustering of Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) is, in many areas, resulting in a diminished resource, yet there is no diminution of the child population covered. One contributor cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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reported that she is currently covering two named doctor and one designated doctor posts with only one programmed activity being allocated. With the clustering of Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) there is insufficient leverage in the system to ensure that PCT management complies with statutory guidance, placing both children and the professional staff expected to support their wellbeing at significant risk. We hope the Committee will emphasise their importance to effective non-social work child protection practice. A common complaint from professionals is that safeguarding work is considered reactive and not appropriately planned for within job design; thus simply finding the time to undertake the work can be extremely difficult. It is important that support structures such as peer review and supervision are included or funded in job planning. Clinics still need to be run, and caseloads remain high, yet professionals are also required to find time to attend case conferences or attend court proceedings. These commitments need to be fully recognised in their contracts. It is crucial to support GPs, and Clinical Commissioning Groups, in embracing safeguarding work. Anecdotal evidence suggests wide variations in the current arrangements: child health is seen as a low priority in some areas, whilst other areas report enthusiasm, in part due to the Kennedy Review. Since the events of Haringey in 2008 the Royal College of General Practitioners (RCGP) has worked hard to equip its members with the tools and support to improve their knowledge of child protection. These developments must continue to be supported during the transition to new ways of delivering primary care, and further opportunities explored to develop education and training in safeguarding for this key group of professionals and their teams. A wider issue to tackle, for all future clinicians, is how to further incorporate child protection training within undergraduate medical degrees. It is crucial that partners engage and form relationships with the voluntary sector, considering the range of effective public health outcomes that such organisations offer. For example, one Community Trust uses third- sector expertise at every level of service provision; local organisations supporting families need to be included in planning and referral processes so that early identification of need and help can be provided seamlessly and effectively. Integration, of teams, budgets and information systems should be developed to improve multi-agency working. Multi-agency team pilots are showing positive early signs of effectiveness; and greater use of children’s centres as interdisciplinary hubs may potentially develop partnership working. Both of these developments were recognise in the Munro Review and should be built upon. Responsive and integrated information systems do not exist in all areas, not only at the interface between children’s social care and health, but also at the health/health interface, as different systems are procured with no formal requirements for interface and data sharing. This inhibits the sharing of key information and risks decision-making without access to appropriate information. Local Safeguarding Children Boards have a central role to play in the future protection of children and their efficacy has certainly increased in recent years. However, the transfer of some functions to other responsible bodies, such as Health and Wellbeing Boards, risks those services being devolved in the broader agenda and LSCBs must be strengthened in their core role of local oversight and influence. For example, services on the safeguarding wellbeing end of the spectrum, such as sexual health and teenage pregnancy interventions will in future be responsibility of HWBBs, but the LSCB can provide clear oversight where integration is not working. This raises wider questions around how Health and Wellbeing Boards will be held to account for child health through Joint Strategic Needs Assessments and the importance of LSCBs providing a rigorous and powerful scrutiny function across the whole commissioned service for children in a local area, including the various health partners. We also see a role for LSCBs in ensuring that the commissioning of child protection services is effective, and also championing child protection as a local priority. LSCBs should also ensure stronger links between professionals in adult mental health, substance abuse and intimate partner violence and those in children’s services, especially social care. A recent overview of safeguarding research found that professionals in adult services are insufficiently integrated into inter-agency safeguarding children training, yet their involvement could help prevent children being maltreated.62 It is commonly accepted that thresholds for referral and action are being raised in the current climate, leaving the primary community workforce holding more complex cases. These teams need to be appropriately trained and supported in managing these risks, with clear mechanisms for highlighting and acknowledging concerns. Opportunities exist, such as joint supervision sessions and ensuring that safeguarding competences are being adequately tested to ensure compliance. It is also important to recognise that it is often the least skilled members of the workforce who are asked to engage with families with multiple problems, resulting in a possibility that risk may not be being managed effectively. The current clustering arrangements, of both Strategic Health Authorities and Primary Care Trusts, present both risks and opportunities. Organisations may be more adept at disseminating and sharing best practice and the development of clinical networks could improve further. However, it is vital that clinical expertise is maintained at the appropriate level, and also that the merging of acute and community settings does not lead to dilution of posts such as named professionals for safeguarding. 62 France, A, Munro E R and Waring, A (2009) The Evaluation of Arrangements for Effective Operation of the New Local Safeguarding Children Boards in England, Department for Education, available at: http://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/DFE-RR027.doc cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Public health interventions must not be reduced, and professionals must work together, particularly with Directors of Public Health in local authorities, to provide a robust economic case for investment. Using evidence-based interventions as advocated in both the Kennedy and Marmot Reviews is essential to ensure services are maintained in the current climate. Inspection of children’s services can be a driver for change and the revised Ofsted arrangements are essential to this. For example, one contributor noted that an improvement notice served after inspectors had judged safeguarding to be inadequate meant that visible improvements were quickly resourced and implemented, for example the number of allocated sessions for designated professionals was doubled. However, there is a significant concern that Care Quality Commission (CQC) or alternative health expertise will not be included in the proposed Ofsted inspection arrangements. We would press vigorously for the new inspection framework to include clear and detailed health oversight to ensure that the risks of change as the new systems are maturing are identified swiftly and robustly in the interests of children’s safety. November 2011
Written evidence submitted by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) Introduction 1. This is a time of major reform in child protection, early intervention, the social care workforce, the health service, the Police and the family justice system, as set out principally in the Munro Review of Child Protection, the Allen Review, the Health and Social Care Bill, the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act, the programme of the Social Work Reform Board and the ongoing Family Justice Review. 2. The NSPCC has commented on these developments as they occurred;63 while this submission is informed by evidence we provided to these reviews it is neither possible nor appropriate to reiterate it all here. Our submission is also informed by a series of roundtables held during September 2011 to consider the areas of particular concern to the Committee.
Early Help 3. The NSPCC’s recent report on the prevalence of child abuse found that a substantial minority of children and young people are severely maltreated at home, in school and in the community, from both adults and peers: one in 17 (5.9%) children aged under 11 years, one in five (18.6%) young people aged 11–17 years and 1 in 4 (25.3%) of young adults aged 18–24 had experienced severe maltreatment in childhood.64 This is thus an issue of major proportions, yet a majority of these children never come to the attention of children’s services. At 31 March 2011, there were 42,300 children with a child protection plan, 379,300 child in need and 736,400 episodes of need through the year.65 4. Early help is vital for optimising children’s chances of good outcomes when they are at risk of, or experiencing, abuse and more can be done to identify the children most in need of help. “Early help” can refer to intervention early in the life course; prior to the onset of a problem; and/or as early as possible after the identification of risk. All are important for children. During a period of fiscal constraint, it is even more vital that practice and interventions are evidence-based. There is a big gap between what we know to be effective and current practice, which is not necessarily evidence-based.66 5. Early interventions should be time-limited and have clear measurable goals to enable assessment of a family’s progress and whether the intervention is working or whether other work is needed. Without this, a family can continue receiving support that might be ineffective, children might continue to be at risk, opportunities for successful timely interventions lost, and resources used inefficiently. Successful evidence- based early intervention programmes include the Family Nurse Partnership, the use of video-interactive guidance and “Minding the Baby”, which the NSPCC is trialling, and will be the first programme in the UK to combine support from social workers, nurses and mental health experts (see Appendix). 6. Evidence-based practice is as important, if not more so, than evidence-based programmes, and easier to take to scale as it can be embedded into the day to day work of practitioners, whilst new programmes can be harder to “fit” into existing systems and structures. However, professionals are very stretched, so it is important to help them to reorient their practice to new, more effective ways of working without over-burdening them. 7. Key to early help is giving practitioners skills and knowledge about evidence-based practice through: supervision; continued professional development; giving them time/resources/incentives to read and research the latest practice and developing learning sets. Initial training could also emphasise the importance of practitioners keeping in touch with the latest research, and suggest ways they can do this. 63 Available on http://www.nspcc.org.uk/publicaffairs. 64 Radford, Lorraine, Corral, Susana, Bradley, Christine, Fisher, Helen, Bassett, Claire, Howat, Nick and Collishaw, Stephan (2011) Child abuse and neglect in the UK today. London: NSPCC, available at: http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/findings/child_ abuse_neglect_research_wda84173.html 65 http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d001025/index.shtml 66 Little, Michael (2010) “Improving children’s outcomes depends on systemising evidence-based practice...” Proof Positive. London: Demos. http://www.demos.co.uk/publications/proofpositive cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Recommendations
8. There should be clear responsibility at local level for ensuring that there is support available to families who do not meet the thresholds for care. This support should be sustained even at a time of spending cuts, as early help can save expenditure on more expensive interventions required once problems have become very serious.
9. Given the prevalence of child abuse, there is a need at a societal level for more widespread public information about the crucial importance of early child development, and for public education to emphasise that simple changes in how parents relate to their young children can bring permanent benefits.67 This should be an element of any government programme for tackling the harmful effects of poor parenting on the scale required.
Assessment and Referral
10. An integral element of providing early help is good assessment and decision-making. Munro has identified unnecessary bureaucracy and guidance in child protection, including current assessment processes, as impeding professionals’ ability to exercise their professional decision-making and judgement. However, good assessment is less about prescriptive versus non-prescriptive practice than about how to improve the quality of professional decision-making.
11. Research68 has identified the following factors which affect decision-making: — Poor organisational culture and lack of support for the professional to have time for the reflection and analysis needed for a proper assessment; — Unclear terminology/definitions for professionals from different fields impeding the ability to accurately discuss children and families; — Barriers to information-sharing within and between agencies; — A focus on process and meeting guidelines rather than allowing professional judgement to have weight in a decision, inhibiting discussion between professionals with different areas of expertise; — Technology that impedes rather than enhances decision-making; — Lack of services and/or a lack of effective services to which to refer children and families.
12. There is considerable debate about what is the best method to use in child protection assessment,69 and a wide range of assessment tools have been developed in an attempt to move to evidence-based practice. Many of these have been promoted to provide a more rigorous, analytical approach to assessment, but there is little evidence to show which tools are most useful. When evaluating an assessment tool it is important to consider whether it will work for all families, and takes into account factors such as disability, culture and ethnicity.
13. Assessment tools should guide practitioners’ clinical judgement, and help them to organise and enhance their decision-making.70 Professional judgements should be based on evidence-based theories and knowledge.
14. It is vital in child protection work that all assessment and intervention processes are informed by the child’s developmental timeline. Effective assessment, whatever tool is being used, relies on the professional having a good knowledge and understanding of child development, in particular attachment theory and neurological development. Key to both is an understanding of the nature and effects of poor parenting on early brain development and thus on children’s current and subsequent emotional/social, intellectual and behavioural development. 67 Centre for Excellence and Outcomes, Grasping the nettle: Early intervention for Children, Families and Communities, available at: http://www.c4eo.org.uk/themes/earlyintervention/files/early_intervention_grasping_the_nettle_full_report.pdf 68 Peckover, S, Hall, C and White, S (2009). From policy to practice: the implementation and negotiation of technologies in everyday child welfare. Children & Society 23(2): 136–148. Bell, M, Shaw, I, Sinclair, I, Sloper, P and Rafferty, J (2007). The Integrated Children’s System: An evaluation of the practice, process and consequences of the ICS in councils with social services responsibilities, Department of Social Policy and Social Work, University of York, York. White, A and Walsh, P (2006). Risk assessment in child welfare: an issues paper. Centre for Parenting and Research, Ashfield, N S W: http://nla.gov.au/nla.arc-117284. and Gambrill, E and Shlonsky, A (2001). The need for comprehensive risk management systems in child welfare. Children and Youth Services Review, 23(1), pp. 79–107. 69 Munro, E (2008). Lessons from research on decision-making. In: Lindsey, Duncan and Shlonsky, Aron, (eds.) Child welfare research: advances for practice and policy. Oxford University Press, New York, NY; Oxford, UK, pp. 194–200. 70 Shlonsky, A and Wagner, D (2005). The next step: integrating actuarial risk assessment and clinical judgement into an evidence- based practice framework in CPS case management, Children and Youth Services Review 27: 409–427; Ereth, J, Johnson, K and Wagner, D (2003). New Mexico Children Youth and Families Department: Foster Provider Risk Assessment Study. Children’s Research Center; Fuller T L, Wells S J and Cotton E E (2001). Predictors of maltreatment recurrence at two milestones in the life of a case. Children and Youth Services Review, 23(1), 49–78. Munro, E. (1999) ‘Common errors of reasoning in child protection work’, Child Abuse and Neglect, 23 (8) 745–758. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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15. Yet this knowledge is not routinely included in pre-registration training for the majority of professionals who work with children, nor is it a routine element of continuous professional development.71 If practitioners lack specialist knowledge, they should have access to other professionals with more understanding of child maltreatment theories and the impact on the child of factors such as disability of the parent/child or being in a Black and Minority Ethnic family. 16. Practitioners must also be able to engage and communicate effectively with children and young people, and maintain a core focus on the child themselves, as Munro has emphasised,72 yet this remains a significant gap in practice. In its 2008 evaluation of serious case reviews OfSted reported a “failure of all professionals to see the situation from the child’s perspective and experience; to see and speak to the children; to listen to what they said, to observe how they were and to take serious account of their views in supporting their needs.”73 Three years later this is still an issue: “... the child was not seen frequently enough by the professionals involved, or was not asked about their views and feelings...agencies did not listen to adults who tried to speak on behalf of the child and who had important information to contribute.”74 17. Professionals also require good quality supervision to assist them in assessing a case and reaching appropriate decisions. It can also reduce their anxiety about a case, and increase their professional confidence in practising their discipline within a theoretical framework. Supervision also helps them to reassess a case without bias when new information is presented—a critical factor in good assessment, which is not a single act but a continuous process.75 18. There are three key gaps in assessment practice which require particular attention. First, there is no rigorously validated and consistently applied model for pre-birth risk assessment in the UK, making it likely that opportunities to prevent poor parenting and abuse are thus being missed at this very early stage. Second, professionals must be able to assess parental capacity to change within the child’s timeline, and the parents’ ability to relate to their child. Recent research by Ward et al on infants at risk of significant harm found that most parents, if they are going to make positive changes in caring for their children, have done so within six months.76 This has important implications for practice. 19. Third is the assessment of neglect, which remains the largest category of abuse for children with a child protection plan and presents particular challenges for professionals, in part because of its cumulative effect. It is questionable whether professionals have sufficient understanding of the impact of neglect on a child’s development to assess it appropriately; they can struggle to know what to do when they have concerns, often overestimating the parents’ capacity to care for their child and the child’s resilience to harm. As a result, too many children are left in situations of serious neglect. Brandon et al argue that in neglect cases social workers can fall into the trap of “start again syndrome”, where practitioners lose the history of a case by focusing too much on the present problems and issues.77 20. To help improve the quality of assessment, the NSPCC is testing and seeking to add further benefit and local applicability to models which promise better outcomes for children who have been abused, including: the New Orleans Intervention Model, the North Carolina Family Assessment Scale and the Graded Care Profile (see Appendix for further details). Recommendations 21. Focusing improvement on workforce skills and development, pre-birth risk assessment, assessment of parental capacity to change and professional assessment of neglect would assist early intervention and court decisions about children’s welfare. In addition, clinical supervision should be separate from day- to-day management and resource issues. 22. A forthcoming DfE-commissioned report on assessment tools by Professor Jane Barlow of Warwick University will provide greater understanding of the available assessment tools and their efficacy. We 71 See Social Work Taskforce (July 2009), Facing up to the task: the interim report of the Social Work Taskforce, London: Department of Health and Department for Children, Schools and Families; NHS Education for Scotland (2011), Core Competency Framework for the Protection of Children. 2011, Edinburgh: NES and RCPCH (2010), Safeguarding Children and Young People: Roles and Competences for Health Care Staff. Intercollegiate Document, London: Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. 72 See Munro, E (2011). The Munro Review of Child Protection—Final Report: A child-centred system. London: Department for Education. 73 OFSTED (2008) Learning lessons, taking action: Ofsted’s evaluations of serious case reviews 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. London, OFSTED, available from: http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/voice-of-child-learning-lessons-serious-case-reviews 74 Ofsted (2011) The voice of the child: learning lessons from serious case reviews A thematic report of Ofsted’s evaluation of serious case reviews from 1 April to 30 September 2010, available from: http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/voice-of-child- learning-lessons-serious-case-reviews 75 See Munro, E (2011). The Munro Review of Child Protection—Final Report: A child-centred system. London: DfE; Munro, E (1999). ‘Common errors of reasoning in child protection work’, Child Abuse and Neglect, 23 (8) 745–758 and Farmer, E and Owen, M (1995). Child protection practice: private risks and public remedies. London: HMSO; 76 Ward, H, Brown, R, Westlake, D and Munro, Emily R. Infants suffering, or likely to suffer, significant harm: A prospective longitudinal study, DfE Research Brief (October 2010), available at: http://www.lboro.ac.uk/research/ccfr/Publications/DFE- RB053.pdf 77 Brandon et al (2008) Analysing child deaths and serious injury through abuse and neglect: what can we learn? www.londonscb.gov.uk/files/library/scrs_20032005.pdf cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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suggest that the Committee considers the results of this review before finalising its recommendations relating to assessment.
Thresholds for Care 23. There were 65,520 looked after children at 31 March 2011, an increase of two per cent from 2010 and nine per cent since 2007.78 There has been much debate about whether enough children are being brought into care, yet this is not an issue which can be resolved by setting targets: there is no “right” or “wrong” number of children who should be in care. Rather, professional practice and the child protection system must be competent to skillfully assess and be properly responsive to children’s needs and capable of providing the care they require, whether this is within the nuclear family, the wider family or outside it, either temporarily or permanently. 24. There is clear evidence of the benefits that care can provide, and studies show that outcomes for looked after children are often better than for those who remain in damaging family situations; there is thus a need to tackle the widely held belief that care is damaging to children. Care should be used as part of the continuum of provision for children requiring help, and regarded neither as negative, nor as a measure of last resort. 25. At the heart of this debate is an inevitable and emotionally difficult tension between enabling children to be brought up by their birth family until maturity, and the moral and legal imperative to protect them if living with their birth family is causing them significant harm. Inherent in child protection therefore is a need to balance parental rights against those of the child. 26. Our child protection practice and the family justice system are informed by three key principles enshrined in Section 1 of the Children Act 1989: the parmountcy principle, which establishes clearly that the child’s welfare is the court’s paramount concern; that any delay in proceedings is likely to prejudice the welfare of the child; and that an order shall be made in respect of the child only if doing so is better for the child than making no order. Their importance has recently been reaffirmed by the Family Justice Review, and is consistent with international human rights instruments such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC), ratified by the UK government in 1991, Article 3 of which establishes that all decisions affecting children’s lives should be made in their best interests. To ensure this is the case, we believe the Committee should consider the need for the balance of rights to be reconsidered to ensure that children are protected from harm. 27. There is significant concern about whether children who have suffered, or are suffering, from abuse or neglect are coming into care early enough to optimise their chances of recovery from their damaging experiences. There are many instances of children being taken into care too late but little indication that authorities are taking children into care too easily; research consistently finds that authorities are acting appropriately79,80,81, and a Cafcass evaluation of the increase in s31applications following the case of Baby Peter Connelly found that they were either “appropriately timed” or should in fact have “been brought to court earlier than they were.”82,83 28. Indeed, it has been suggested that “where allegations of serious harm are concerned, the threshold ought to be lower”84 and that high thresholds for entry into care in the UK have resulted in a looked after population characterised by a “high concentration of disadvantage”, which consequently leads to “poor outcomes overall”85 and contributes also to a misperception of the care system itself as not being good for children. 29. It has been acknowledged that at present the courts “have done their utmost, in light of human rights commitments, to set a high bar” in terms of satisfying the test for removal.86 Concern has been expressed that the interpretation of this test “has made it extremely difficult to obtain the interim removal of a child from their home”, and that the local authority “has to prove a prima facie case not just of significant harm but something greater and more injurious”.87 High thresholds therefore result in children and families with substantial, chronic problems and high levels of need failing to receive timely help.88 78 DfE: Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and care leavers)—year ending 31 March 2011, available at: http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/index.shtml ) 79 Masson, J, Pearce, J, Bader, K, Joyner, O, Marsden, J & Westlake, D (2008). Care Profiling study, MoJ Research Series 4/08. Ministry of Justice: London. 80 Dickens, J, Howell, D Thoburn, J & Schofield G (2007). ‘Children starting to be looked after by local authorities in England: an analysis of inter-authority variation and case-centred decision-making’, British Journal of Social Work, 34(4): 597–617. 81 Schofield, G and Ward, E, with Warman, A, Simmonds, J and Butler, J (2008). Permanence in Foster Care: A Study of Care Planning and Practice in England and Wales. (133 pages). London: BAAF. 82 Cafcass (2011) The Baby Peter effect and the increase in s31 care order applications. London: Cafcass. 83 This is consistent with the SSI’s overview of 31 inspections of Children’s Social Services in 1999–2000 (Adams, 2001) which concluded that whilst there was striking variability in the quality of services they inspected, there was no evidence to suggest children were coming into care inappropriately. 84 Turney, D, Platt, D Selwyn, J & Farmer, E (2011). Social work assessment of children in need: what do we know? Messages from research, London: DfE. 85 Rowlands, J & Statham, J (2009). Numbers of children looked after in England: a historical analysis, Child and Family Social Work, issue 14: 79–89. 86 Bainham, A (2011). ‘Interim Care Orders: Is the Bar set too Low?’, Family Law, issue 4 (4) (April 2011): 374–381. 87 Ibid. 88 Biehal, N (2005). Working with Adolescents, Supporting Families, Preventing Breakdown. London: BAAF. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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30. We need to ensure our system is responsive and able to meet the needs of all children. However, at present, it is extremely difficult to demonstrate heightened and imminent significant harm in cases of cumulative neglect, emotional abuse and domestic violence,89 and prolonged delay is particularly likely to occur in cases of neglect and emotional abuse. Plowden noted in his review of court fees that “the major area of uncertainty concerns chronic cases of children at long-term risk of neglect… The judiciary are strongly of the view that ... social workers can wait too long before initiating proceedings.”90 Gardner found that in cases where the criminal threshold for neglect was either not met or a conviction not pursued, recurring incidents just below the “significant harm” threshold were often not recorded and considered for their cumulative effect as meriting intervention under the Children Act 1989.91 We have commented above the implications of this for assessment. 31. There is also evidence to suggest that professionals may spend too long working to enable the child to remain with their parents at the expense of the child’s need; indeed, the Children Act 1989, while being clear about the child’s needs being paramount, also requires practitioners to work in partnership with families. This work is a critically important part of providing a continuum of support to children and their families but clearly should not be at the expense of meeting the child’s needs within appropriate developmental timelines. However, there is some evidence that the challenge in “provid[ing] a system which strikes a careful balance between protecting children and respecting family life, whilst ensuring that the decisions made are fair and proper”92 may sometimes result in children being left in harmful situations for too long, possibly in part also to satisfy Article 8 concerns about the right to family life. The Family Justice Review interim report stated that “a common complaint [in evidence submitted to the review] was that even where there is robust evidence from recent proceedings that parents would be unable to care for a child the court will insist on starting assessments afresh. The implication is that this is needed to assure the parent’s rights”.93 32. Care needs to be seen as part of the spectrum of family support and should have greater capacity to provide flexible packages of support to enable children and their families to thrive. Further development of services is needed to ensure a smooth transition into and out of care, without “cliff edges” in the support provided, including when children are reunified with their families. Recommendation 33. There is clear evidence of the support that care can provide to children who are suffering abuse and neglect. More needs to be done to create a flexible and responsive system that protects children from harm and enables children to enter care when that support is needed. Consideration needs to be given to whether our child protection system, including the family courts, places too much importance on the rights of the parent, over and above the rights and needs of the child, which in turn affects professional judgement and decisions around the use of care, prolonging the harm suffered by some children.
Role of Non-Social Work Agencies 34. Effective multi-disciplinary and multi-agency working is vital to protecting children from harm. Currently, significant structural changes are affecting child protection practice, which itself must continually evolve to respond to new child abuse challenges, such as sexting and gang cultures. It is important that all professionals understand their role in protecting children, and that practices and structures support this. 35. However, this is arguably more difficult in the current climate. The government, while accepting the need for a broad national policy framework, favours local determination of policy priorities. Central guidance is being reduced and structures dismantled; local authorities are no longer required to have a Children and Young People’s Plan, and there is no requirement for local areas to have children’s trust arrangements, though they can choose to do so. 36. In scaling back national guidance on child protection, it is important to retain the clarity of the Working Together to Safeguard Children guidance, which can facilitate accountability for child protection, whether of individual professionals, or of local or national government. Careful consideration must also be given to ensuring that a reduction in guidance does not undermine the ability of Local Safeguarding Children Boards to achieve appropriate levels of co-operation and participation of different agencies in child protection. 37. It is a major challenge to ensure that children and their safety are accorded the priority they deserve during change and restructuring. The comment in the Family Justice Review Interim Report that: “The public law system is under severe strain. The cumulative effect is that the paramount interests of the child can too often be buried under the weight of process”94 could as easily apply to the difficulties of maintaining sufficient health service focus on child protection in the context of new commissioning arrangements and overstretched 89 Op cit at notes 14 and 15. 90 Plowden F (2009). Review of Court Fees in Child Care Proceedings. Ministry of Justice, available at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/ publications/docs/court-fees-child-care-proceedings.pdf 91 Gardner R, Developing an effective response to neglect and emotional harm to children, UEA/NSPCC 2008, available at: http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/nspccresearch/completedresearch/DevelopingAnEffectiveResponseToNeglectPDF_ wdf56700.pdf 92 Family Justice Review Interim Report (March 2011), Ministry of Justice, Department for Education and Welsh Assembly Government, para 4.11. 93 Ibid, para. 4.71. 94 Family Justice Review (March 2011), Interim Report, para 4.56, available at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/publications/ policy/moj/family-justice-review-interim-rep.pdf cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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designated and named doctors for child protection, some of whom are being required to cover multiple primary care trusts. We have commented in more detail on issues affecting health in our joint submission to the Committee with the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Recommendation 38. We recommend that the Committee is attentive to forthcoming inspection reports and urge it to monitor the impact of current reforms and fiscal constraint on the effective protection of children. The inspection of police, health and children’s services will become an increasingly important lever for maintaining a focus on children and their protection as current reforms and the new localism take effect.
APPENDIX NSPCC “Minding the Baby” Service “Minding the baby” will support young, vulnerable first-time parents to care for and protect their baby in the first two years of its life. We will provide support and guidance to the most vulnerable families to establish good parenting and keep babies safe from harm.
Why? Supporting young mums and dads who are struggling to cope with parenthood is one of the best ways to stop child cruelty before it starts and gives babies the best possible chance in life.
What happens? The NSPCC plans to work with 320 families in four areas in the UK, over five years. The “Minding the Baby” programme will be offered to first-time mums aged under 25, who are struggling with problems such as depression, homelessness, poverty, or violent relationships. Local NSPCC workers and nurses will carry out regular home visits with new mums, dads and other family members to provide an intensive programme of support. These visits will start three months before the baby is born and continue until they turn two. New parents will be provided with practical support like feeding tips, help with housing or financial advice. We will give additional support to mums and dads who are struggling emotionally, as babies are more likely to suffer abuse or neglect if their mums have poor mental health.
Why will it make a difference? “Minding the Baby” will be the first service in the UK to combine support from social workers, nurses and mental health experts. The programme was developed at Yale University and has shown promising early findings, including better bonding between mother and child. The NSPCC will share our learning with governments and ultimately want to roll out the programme with others so that every baby has the chance to grow up healthily and develop normally; loved, protected and safe from harm.
NSPCC TESTING OF MODELS FOR IMPROVING ASSESSMENT AND DECISION-MAKING 1. New Orleans Intervention Model (NIM) NIM is a cutting-edge intensive assessment and intervention programme the NSPCC is testing to inform court decisions on whether maltreated children can be reunited with their birth family or be placed for adoption with their foster family.
Rationale Courts must make the right decisions on where abused and neglected children should live, and parents and children must get help as soon as possible. Many children suffer long-term damage to their mental health because they are not helped swiftly enough. Young children, in particular, are deeply traumatised by abuse and separation from their families and homes. More harm is caused if they are moved frequently between foster families or sent back to situations of abuse and neglect.
What are we doing? NIM was developed in the USA. It is a cutting-edge way to help professionals consider whether children can be reunited with their birth family or placed for adoption with their foster family. The service will initially be implemented in Glasgow in partnership with Greater Glasgow Local Authority and NHS Glasgow. NSPCC social workers will be part of professional team looking at the quality of children’s relationships with birth parents and with foster carers. The team will assess and work with 170 abused and neglected children under cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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five years old, every year for two years, focusing on children who have been removed from home because of abuse or neglect.
How will this make a difference? This programme could make a lasting difference to abused and looked-after children in the UK. Children assessed by the New Orleans Model in the USA were less likely to suffer abuse or neglect when they were returned to their birth families, or more likely to settle in well with a new foster family. We will test this model to help courts make better decisions about where a child should live, whether it will reduce the risk of repeat abuse or neglect for the subject child or a subsequent child being maltreated, and ensure stability in children’s lives. If successful, it is envisaged that the model will also be used to inform family court decisions in England and Wales.
2. Evidence-based Decisions for Children in Complex Neglect Cases This is a pioneering new approach which the NSPCC will test with local authorities to help social workers make effective decisions in child neglect cases.
Rationale Neglect is the most common form of maltreatment suffered by children in the UK. Social workers are often confused about how to intervene in child neglect, and neglected children often remain at home without appropriate support or decisive intervention. Without early intervention the effects of neglect can be extremely damaging and can last a lifetime.
What will happen? Pairs of NSPCC and local authority social workers will visit 1,240 neglected children at home. They will use the tool to look at how the family functions. The workers will see families at least three times to inform local authority decisions about what interventions are needed to keep the children safe from neglect. If the case has not been closed after three months, the social workers will review the parents’ progress to inform local authority decisions about what further intervention is needed to keep the children safe. The NSPCC will test the tool in five local authorities over two years.
How will this make a difference? The tool we are testing is called the North Carolina Family Assessment Scale (NCFAS-G). It has been used successfully in the USA, Canada and Australia. This is the first time it has been fully tested in the UK. This tool has been shown to improve the way social workers interact with families, how they gather and analyse information, and how they make decisions. The tool does not require lengthy reports. Therefore social workers can spend more time with children and families. We aim to roll out this tool to more local authorities. We hope it will be supported by local and national governments across the UK. We will share what we learn in the UK and across the world to protect the most vulnerable children and keep them safe.
3. Graded Care Profile: A National Evaluation of a Tool for Assessing the Care of Children and Identifying Potential and Actual Child Neglect The “Graded Care Profile” is a tool the NSPCC is testing that will improve the lives of neglected children by helping social workers to identify neglect.
Rationale NSPCC research shows almost one in ten children have suffered parental neglect at some point in their childhood. More than one in a hundred has suffered severe physical neglect. Social workers often struggle with child neglect and don’t always know what to do when they have concerns. They often overestimate the parents’ capacity to care for their child and the child’s resilience to harm. As a result, too many children are left in situations of serious neglect. Delays in identifying neglect and getting help to children can lead to serious injury or even death.
What will happen? The Graded Care Profile is used to assess how well children are looked after. We are speaking to local authorities to find out how widely the Graded Care Profile is used in the UK, and how it is being used. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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NSPCC social workers will test the tool on 400 cases of possible neglect in 10 areas in the UK over two and a half years. The social workers will see if it offers a good way to assess whether children are being neglected. They will also look at whether it helps make the children’s lives better. We will work with Local Safeguarding Children Boards and health, education, local authorities and other agencies to test the tool.
How will this make a difference? The NSPCC hopes to develop this tool so it can be used across the UK to improve the lives of neglected children. We will share our findings with other professionals and organisations such as Local Safeguarding Children Boards, health, education and police professionals, as well as with governments across the UK. If the tool is successful, we will promote its wider use to keep more children safe, healthy and well-looked after. November 2011
Written evidence submitted by Professor Nina Biehal, Social Policy Research Unit, University of York Research at the University of York suggests that: — thresholds for admission to care or accommodation may be high in some authorities, even for children experiencing serious abuse or neglect; — for those children who cannot return home, delays in admission may reduce the chance of achieving a successful permanent placement; — these delays may also contribute to poor outcomes for children; and — neglected or abused adolescents may be less likely to receive timely attention than younger children. 1. A recent study of maltreated children who enter care, funded by the former DCSF, found that thresholds for entry to care were often high (Wade, Biehal, Farrelly, et al, 2011). Almost all (92%) of the children in the study had experienced two or more forms of maltreatment, including neglect (84%), emotional abuse (85%), physical abuse (59%) and sexual abuse (20%). In a number of cases, the abuse or neglect of children had persisted for many years without decisive action by children’s services or the courts. In some cases, there had been repeated referrals for serious neglect by schools, neighbours and others, but social workers had been reluctant to remove the children from home (or courts had not agreed to their requests to do so), and had persisted with attempts to support the children in their families. Given the seriousness of the difficulties of many of these children, this raises questions for children’s services and the courts about thresholds for entry to care. 2. Thresholds for admission may vary across local authorities. A York study of family support services for adolescents at imminent risk of admission to care or accommodation, often due to their serious behavioural difficulties, found that over one-third had previously experienced abuse or neglect and that social workers were concerned that half of them were currently experiencing these (Biehal, 2005). Despite the provision of family support services, one-quarter became looked after although in most cases accommodation was short-term. The proportion entering care placements varied between authorities and was often related to whether or not a dedicated preventive service was available and also to the availability of care placements in that area. This indicates that decisions about the interventions necessary to safeguard children are not determined solely by considerations of need and risk but are also shaped by local policy and resources. 3. Another York study, which compared the outcomes of long-term foster care and adoption, found that delay in admitting children to care could have serious consequences for them (Biehal, Ellison, Baker, et al, 2010). First, delay in removing children who could not be safely supported at home reduced the chance that they would find a stable permanent placement. Children who were subsequently adopted entered care at a significantly younger age (average 1.6 years) than those who successfully settled in stable long-term foster placements (who were admitted at age 3.8 years, on average), but those children who went on to experience the breakdown of their foster placements had entered care much later, at an average age of just under five years. Second, late admission was significantly associated with poorer outcomes for the children. The group which experienced placement instability following their later admission to care had significantly worse mental health and education outcomes than the other two groups. There is clearly a fine line to tread between offering high-quality support to keep children in their families, and not exposing them to serious adversity for periods so lengthy as to substantially increase the risk of serious emotional or physical harm, which may have long- term consequences for their development. 4. Delay was not only influenced by local policy and resource decisions but was also occasioned by the actions of the courts. Managers and staff interviewed in the above study suggested that some courts were more likely than others to insist on repeated assessment of parents or further attempts at the rehabilitation of children with their families, even when this had been tried and proved unsuccessful. Staff felt that in some courts there was a greater emphasis on the rights of parents to family life than on the rights of children to protection. This cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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resulted in delay in finding permanent placements for children (through adoption or long-term foster care), a delay which, as the study showed, may have long-term consequences for children’s emotional and behavioural development. 5. High thresholds for admission may also be influenced by the bleak view of the care system evident in much public and professional debate. A lack of confidence in the care system may lead to admission being used only as a last resort, which may leave some children unprotected or may delay their inevitable entry to care (Packman and Hall, 1998; Biehal, 2005; Masson, 2008). In these circumstances, delaying difficult decisions about entry to care may mean that children lose their chance of adoption or, if adoption is not appropriate, of stable long-term foster care. 6. Our research on neglected and abused teenagers (in collaboration with the NSPCC and The Children’s Society) has shown that adolescents who experience abuse or neglect may be less likely to receive timely attention. The research found that cases involving older young people were less likely to advance through the milestones of the child protection system than those involving younger children. They were less likely to receive an initial assessment, less likely to receive a core assessment, less likely to become the subject of a Section 47 enquiry and less likely to result in a child protection plan being formulated (Stein, Rees, Hicks, et al, 2009; Rees, Gorin, Jobe, et al, 2010).
References Biehal, N (2005). Working with Adolescents. Supporting Families, Preventing Breakdown. London: BAAF. Biehal, N, Ellison, S, Baker, C and Sinclair, I (2010). Belonging and Permanence. Outcomes in long-term foster care and adoption. London: BAAF. Masson, J (2008). “The state as parent: the reluctant parent? The problems of parents of last resort”, Journal of Law and Society, 35, 1, 52–74. Packman, J and Hall, C (1998). From Care to Accommodation, London: The Stationery Office. Rees, G, Gorin, S, Jobe, A, Stein, M, Medforth, R and Goswani, H (2010). Safeguarding young people: responding to young people aged 11Ð17 who are maltreated. Executive Summary. The Children’s Society. Stein, M, Rees, G, Hicks, L and Gorin, S (2009). Neglected Adolescents—Literature Review. Research Brief DCSF-RBX-09Ð04, London: Department for Education. Wade, J, Biehal, N, Farrelly, N and Sinclair, I (2011). Caring for Abused and Neglected Children. Making the Right Decisions for Reunification or Long-Term Care. London: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. November 2011
Written evidence submitted by Railway Children Whether the child protection system allows for effective identification of, and early help to, children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation (including, but not restricted to: neglect, sexual and physical abuse, domestic violence, forced marriage, female genital mutilation, child trafficking and online exploitation): — The child protection system does allow for identification and helps children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation. Whether or not existing processes are effective and timely is a more complex question. — We welcome the Munro review’s attempts to move social work away from unhelpful box-ticking and bureaucracy and back towards working in a more cohesive way with families and children. — Railway Children is passionate about helping children at risk on the streets. Our research Off the Radar was an investigation into the lives of over 100 young people who had been on the streets for four weeks or more. Findings (written more fully in Appendix 1) included: — These young people had complex family and home lives. Some had experienced the death of a parent, others abandonment by a parent. More than half had experienced physical abuse. A high proportion of their parents had serious issues for which they do not receive support, cause stress and prevent them forming loving and positive relationships with their children. — Some issues were intergenerational—some of the young people described how their own parents had unhappy childhoods. For many, there was a sense of acceptance, “this is how it is”, and a process of normalisation that prevents support-seeking. — Over three-quarters of children and young people who participated in the research did not receive support from agencies to address the issues in their lives. Only a quarter completed their secondary education. Some were involved with social services but many, at risk and in need, were not. A few children and young people were referred for therapeutic support and a few worked with voluntary sector agencies. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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— Many young people did not seek formal support because they did not realise their problems as their experiences had become normalised. For those that drifted away from home, it was sometimes hard to pinpoint when they had actually left home and when a way of living became problematic. Some young people lived a particular lifestyle for some time before it felt difficult or uncomfortable. Some were happy with their lives, or just accepted this is how life was. Some had very few expectations or ideas that life could or should be different. — We would like to see running away taken more seriously as a warning sign that something isn’t right in a young person’s life—this may pick up on the various forms of abuse described in the question, as well as child sexual exploitation. — We’d like to see more return interviews undertaken by an independent person (eg social worker, police or preferably someone from the voluntary sector) as recommended in the statutory guidance, Children who run away and go missing from home or care, connected to longer-term support if needed, to pick up problems early and prevent repeat running. Currently there is a postcode lottery for this kind of work, and the situation is getting worse. — Railway Children believes there has been a shift towards centre-based youth work at the expense of detached street work, and that the most marginalised young people have lost out as a result. Detached street work should be prioritised. — Statutory guidance, such as that for young people who run away and go missing from home or care, should be implemented and overseen by the Local Child Safeguarding Boards. In turn, we would like to see Local Child Safeguarding Boards inspected. Factors affecting the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment, and variations across the country: — We are concerned about the safeguarding of adolescents in particular. Anecdotally we hear of teenagers approaching their 16th birthday being left in risky home situations, due to local authorities not wanting to take them into care as they will then need to be responsible for them until they are 21. — This was backed up by Cleaver and Walker’s (2004) study (cited in Rees et al, 2010) of assessment procedures in 24 local authorities in England. Age of the young person was one of two factors (along with reason for referral) associated with the likelihood of cases progressing from referral to initial assessment. The likelihood was lower for referrals relating to young people aged 15 years and over. — Cawson et al (2000) as cited in Rees et al (2010) highlighted that “young children may not necessarily be those at most risk of experiencing abuse. Two patterns of abusive relationships were identified—continual abuse since early childhood, and onset of abuse during adolescence. For example, over half (56%) of the young people who had experienced violent treatment by parents/ carers said that this started at the age of nine or over” (p.25). — This paper also highlighted that neglectful parenting may result in adolescent offending behaviour, but adolescent offending behaviour can also lead to neglectful parenting (as parents disengage). — The following was a quote from a police officer cited in Rees et al (2010): “a lot of the challenging teenage behaviours that result in the police being called for disputes between parents and young people... if it was an 11 year old, then I might make a referral, whereas if you’ve got a 17 year old who’s living independently, at 16 a young person can legally get married, can’t they?” — This typifies an attitude about teenagers which is potentially dangerous when used to make decisions about safeguarding teenagers. Rees et al (2010)’s interviews with social workers and other professionals found “most believed it to be easier for young people to disclose than for children. However the interviews with young people suggest that while some young people may have better communication skills and more access to professionals than young children, a different set of barriers exist because young people are more aware of the impact of disclosure.” — Young people had concerns that they would not be believed, didn’t know who to tell, or that they would be put in care. These issues need to be better addressed to improve the effectiveness of the child protection system. — A quotes from a young person in this study: “there’s only certain things you want to tell social services, because if you tell them too much about a situation that’s going on... I didn’t even want to go into foster care—I basically had no choice because I had no family I could stay with... And I knew if I told them everything that was going on at home, they would have shoved me in foster care ages ago—and I didn’t want that” (which resulted in her colluding with an abusive parent to disguise abuse from her social worker). Appropriate thresholds for intervention, including arguments for and against removing children from their families: — On this point we would like to emphasise that consideration of budget should not be foremost in the decision to remove a child from home, as we are concerned may happen for older children and teenagers. It should be what is best for the child, recognising that teenagers are still children requiring support in different ways. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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APPENDIX 1 Understanding the Issue In 2009, Railway Children published an in-depth investigation into the lives of 103 “detached” children and young people, called Off the Radar. Detached young people are those “that are away from home or care for lengthy periods of time, who live outside of key societal institutions, such as the family, education and other statutory services, who do not receive any formal sources of support”. They may include children and young people who: — Have run away from home or care. — Are thrown out of home or care. — Stay away from home or care. — Are abandoned by parents. Some key themes came out of this research:
Family and Home Life These young people had complex family and home lives. Some had experienced the death of a parent, others abandonment by a parent. More than half had experienced physical abuse. A high proportion of their parents had serious issues for which they do not receive support, cause stress and prevent them forming loving and positive relationships with their children. Some issues are intergenerational—some of the young people described how their own parents had unhappy childhoods. For many, there was a sense of acceptance, “this is how it is”, and a process of normalisation that prevents support-seeking.
Violence Violence was a part of life for all but a few of the 103 participants in the research. Many directly experienced and witnessed violence within family life. This violence was often the direct trigger for children and young people to become detached. Once they left home, most remain affected by violence both as perpetrators and victims. A minority had made a conscious decision to leave violence behind. The normalisation of violence, alongside the need for self-preservation in violent environments, explain the process by which many of the young people found themselves both victims and perpetrators of violence.
The Streets Not all the young people had slept on the streets but all except two (who were abandoned by their parents) had spent time on the streets and either found or sought something from the streets. Many spent time on the streets before they stopped living at home, some only returning home to sleep. Once on the streets, life becomes uncertain and inconsistent. Some days there will be opportunities to make money and offers of places to stay, other days nothing. Sometimes the streets provide warmth and shelter, other times hostility and danger. Life on the streets could be very dangerous. Young people described being attacked by people when they are sleeping out, being punched and kicked. For some, home life was just as dangerous and being on the streets offered freedom and opportunities that were not available elsewhere. Young people also described being cold and hungry, lonely and worried. But young people identified a number of positive things about being on the streets. Some liked it because of the possibility of adventured and found it hard to be away from the streets, craving the fun and excitement. Others cherished the freedom offered by the streets, others benefited from being able to escape their home environment.
Experiences of Agencies Over three-quarters of children and young people who participated in the research did not receive support from agencies to address the issues in their lives. Only a quarter completed their secondary education. Some were involved with social services but many, at risk and in need, were not. A few children and young people were referred for therapeutic support and a few worked with voluntary sector agencies. Many young people did not seek formal support because they did not realise their problems as their experiences had become normalised. For those that drifted away from home, it was sometimes hard to pinpoint when they had actually left home and when a way of living became problematic. Some young people lived a particular lifestyle for some time before it felt difficult or uncomfortable. Some were happy with their lives, or just accepted this is how life was. Some had very few expectations or ideas that life could or should be different. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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When asked for their views on how best to help other young people on the streets, some did not know. Some suggested a change in attitudes and perceptions. One thought the responsibility lay with parents who needed to change their behaviour. Some were specific to children and young people in the care system. Many felt it was important for those working with them to understand the reasons why they were behaving in a certain way and work with them to change their behaviour. It was seen as important for children and young people to know where to go for support; and somewhere to stay. Some wanted somewhere to stay specifically for children and young people that homeless adults were not able to access, as well as drop-in projects that only children and young people can access. Supported housing were seen as important, as well as someone to talk to and list. Some wanted to use their own experiences to prevent others from ending up on the streets, similar to a mentoring role. Some thought there was nothing that could be done, and that it is inevitable that some will be on the streets.
Identities and Behaviours As above, these young people often had difficult family backgrounds, experienced abuse, were both victim and perpetrator of violent acts and employed a range of survival strategies to manage their time away from home or care and on the streets. Many of these were also extremely resilient, have been able to forgive and understand those who abused them, have managed a range of extremely difficult living circumstances and remain loyal, warm and kind to others. Some have retained the ability to show love while others have been too damaged to show love. All of the young people used substances before the age of 16. A small number used only alcohol or cannabis but did not use other druges. There were a number of stories of drug use including ecstacy and cocaine as young as nine, heroin as young as 12. Over two thirds of the participants experienced mental health issues. All experienced depression to differing degrees, and some also experienced panic attacks, anxiety, self-harm, insomnia and eating disorders. Given the extent of abuse, violence and the number of parents who were unable to care for their children because of their own issues, this is unsurprising. Just under a fifth of the young participants experienced sexual exploitation that took a number of forms: having sexual relations with older men and in one case, a woman, being forced to have sex with other people for money by a boyfriend, being shared for sex by groups of men, and selling sex on the streets. Some did not see a future that did not include the streets. Some did not plan or the future and live day-to- day. A few foresee problems for the future because of their past actions and their consequences. Many wanted to change how they lived, ceasing their substance abuse or criminal activity, for example. In general, this group wanted what many people expect: to be happy, to have a home, a job and a family, a life with stability and some choice.
Conclusion Off the Radar was a piece of qualitative research that gave young people voices, told their stories, and as a result gave an insight into the turbulent family backgrounds that led to young people becoming detached. It helped us understand in a deeper way the push and pull factors that lead young people to run away, and some of the dangers they encounter while they are away from home. It also helped us understand that for some, the streets seemed the safest place for them to go. December 2011
Written evidence from Leeds City Council I am writing in response to the follow up questions from the committee in relation to older children.
Ofsted, amongst others, has told us that very often older children “bounce around” the system, with no agency taking responsibility for their protection. Is this true in your areas? How could you better ensure that these children they are not passed from pillar to post? Safeguarding and supporting children to achieve good outcomes can only be achieved when agencies work effectively together. As I said in my evidence to the committee I believe that the Children Act 1989 provides a clear legal framework for this shared responsibility but a reminder of the key principles of the Act would be welcome. In Leeds we have worked hard with partners, through the Children’s Trust and Leeds Children Safeguarding Board, to put in place a clear framework that allows professionals to come together in localities to discuss cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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children about whom there a concerns and to agree how these concerns should be addressed. This framework is underpinned by a number of agreed principles: the child is the client; helping children and families with issues through restorative practice; doing things with them rather than to or for them; and doing the simple things better and never doing nothing. We know from national and local research that the issues that affect children and families are complex. In our experience it is only where professional have the opportunity to have what I refer to as “conversations” about these children that concerns can be properly understood and appropriate plans put in place. We have linked our children’s social work and support services to local schools to facilitate these discussions. We have found that this has been effective in ensuring that vulnerable children receive the right support in the right way at the right time. Across the partnership we have also used a number of agreed approaches, including the Common Assessment Framework, the Top 100 Methodology and Outcomes Based Accountability which have enabled us to establish a common language about children and their needs and circumstances and to enable us to know whether the services and support we have provided have actually made a difference in the life of children. Neglect is recognised by agencies as something that effects older as well as younger children and there are currently 48 children aged 12 and over who have a child protection plan where neglect is a factor. In Leeds we have also identified that some older children, through their behaviours—for example, going missing from home and school, chaotic use of drugs and alcohol—place themselves at risk and we have put specific multi-agency arrangements in place to support these children.
What arrangements do you have with adult social care to support children aged 16 to 19 to make the transition from child to adult services? Are those arrangements good enough? In Leeds we have a joint Children’s and Adults Transition Team. This has helped us to ensure that appropriate arrangements are in place at an early stage to support vulnerable children into adulthood.
We have heard that most older children and young people disclose to and seek help from their peers, rather than statutory agencies or organisations like the NSPCC. Do you provide support to peer-led services and forums for older children? In Leeds we have a number of peer led forums for children and young people. We have worked with the third sector to facilitate groups for children who are more vulnerable, such as looked after children. However, it also needs to be considered that children may disclose to peers because the way in which services are currently configured make it difficult for them to talk and trust adults. In Leeds we believe that the voice of the child and the child’s experience must be at the heart of everything that we do. We actively involved children and young people in the re-configuration of our services and are working with them to look at how we deliver and evaluate what we do to ensure that our services are child friendly and child focused. In my verbal evidence to the committee I indicated that some of the approaches taken to safeguarding issues, such as thresholds and timescales, had not always been helpful because of the very complex nature of the issues that professionals are dealing with and that, in fact, they had unintended negative consequences. Improving safeguarding arrangements is, therefore, not a matter than can be addressed through a change in legislation or definitions. We know the characteristics of the families that are the subjective of safeguarding concerns. Single, female carers are over represented as are parents who experience financial and social poverty. Drug and alcohol misuse, parental mental health and domestic violence are common features. To intervene effectively requires approaches that support families to understand the concerns of professionals and help them to come up with an appropriate and safe solution to the issues, wherever possible. In Leeds we are in the process of expanding our Family Group Conference Service so that in future it will be part of the process wherever there are safeguarding concerns or the possibility that a child may need to become looked after. We believe that this and the arrangements that we have in place to engage the whole city community to support better outcomes for children as a Child Friendly City and to enable professional to discuss vulnerable children will change the current patterns and reduce the number of children in Leeds experiencing significant harm. Finally, I would like to extend an offer to members of the committee to visit Leeds to see and hear first hand from children, families and staff about the work that we are doing. I think the committee would particularly be interested in the work we are doing with other colleagues regularly, nationally and internationally, on “Restorative Practices” and how that approach is helping us respond as a city to many of the questions the committee presented us with. April 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence from Devon County Council Ofsted, amongst others, has told us that very often older children “bounce around” the system, with no agency taking responsibility for their protection. Is this true in your areas? How could you better ensure that these children they are not passed from pillar to post? As can be seen through the statistics below, older children generally account for less activity in terms of referrals to children’s social care and the making of subsequent child protection plans. However, we have a significant number of older children starting care and around 32% of our total children in care cohort are aged 16 and above.
Referrals — Between October and December 2011—14–17 year olds accounted for 268 of the total 1,553 referrals (17.3%). — 16–17 year olds accounted for 87 of the total referrals (5.6%).
Child Protection Plans — A total of 569 Child Protection Plans started in the year to 30 September 2011 (latest available data). — 12.5% of plans were in respect of unborn children; — 64.1% in respect of 0–9 year olds; and — 23.4% in respect of 10–16 year olds (16 was the highest age at which a child began a CP Plan). — Taking children aged 14–17 inclusive, 43 of the total 569 CP Plans were in respect of children aged 14–16 at the Plan start date (7.6% of the total). — Solely looking at 16–17 year olds, 6 children aged 16 started a CP Plan in the year (1.1% of the total).
Children in Care — 354 children started a period of care in the year to 30 September 2011 (latest available data). Of this total, 146 of the total starting care in the year were aged 14–17 on becoming looked after (41.2%). — Solely looking at 16–17 year olds, 79 children were aged 16–17 on becoming looked after (22.3% of the total). Whilst recognising some of the unique challenges in engaging older children, there are good examples in Devon in how we ensure they do not bounce around the system. In response to the G vs Southwark ruling of the House of Lords made in 2009, Devon developed discreet pathways with relevant agencies to assess and meet the needs of homeless 16 and 17 year olds. Prior to this initiative, it would be a fair assessment to state that young people were “passed from pillar to post”, with there often being inter-agency disagreement about whom was responsible for meeting the accommodation needs of young people, many of whom had additional and significant needs, but whom were simply responded to by way of providing a roof over their head through housing legislation. As a two tier authority, the usual response tended towards district councils meeting the housing need and the county council rarely responding under children act legislation. As of today, Devon County Council employs dedicated Advanced Professional Social Workers responsible for working with district councils and other agencies as appropriate to assess homelessness and ensure suitable and safe accommodation. The council and district councils also jointly fund youth homelessness prevention posts, which together with family support services are key in managing this pathway effectively. The development of our joint working and the commitment of partners in Devon to respond to the Southwark ruling in its totality have, in part, contributed to the significant increase in the care population of children and young people in Devon. In 2008–09 there were 539 children in care in Devon. Currently, we have around 720 children in care. This is a clear resource pressure on the county council with average care costs being calculated locally around £50k per annum. However, the importance of this approach is not lost on us in Devon and is reflected in a recent Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Serious Case Review into the death of a 17 year old street homeless young person. http://www.safechildren-cios.co.uk/Default.aspx?page=223 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Part of the strategy to address this rise in older children in care is inextricably linked to the “troubled families” agenda. Many of the older children entering the care system, particularly those entering case as a result of the Southwark ruling have significant histories of involvement with statutory agencies.
It is when the children were younger that perhaps the “bouncing around the system” occurred with no effective intervention getting to the root causes of family dysfunction/need that may have pre-empted the eventual breakdown and entry into care.
This is where significant effort needs to be applied and where our MASH is already helping in identifying “likely troubled families” ie those where the intelligence from across the partnership suggests children and families are likely to be those requiring high cost intervention.
We are also committed to ensuring that once children are in our care, that they remain safe and that we give them the best possible chance of making a secure transition into adulthood.
We actively promote “staying put” and currently have around 60 vulnerable young people who have remained in their foster placement following their 18th birthday (and discharge of any care order) following an assessment of their needs.
There are also nine young people in placement aged over 18 years old, remaining with support from the children’s services following an assessment that did not meet the threshold for adult services but who pose a public protection risk.
Whilst recognising the pressures that this creates in other parts of the system, again, we recognise the importance of better stability and transition for older children, although acknowledge with an older cohort of children in care, this in itself presents challenges for issues such as placement stability.
Twenty-three young people are being supported by the Council to continue their education in university.
Relevant to the protection of older children is the emergent theme of child sexual exploitation. Locally, we are developing a peninsular wide strategy to tackle this issue across the peninsular safeguarding children boards. Locally, Operation Mansfield in Torbay (that included children resident in Devon) has reinforce the requirement for better recognition, coordination and response to this area of risk that is a very real risk for older children in today’s society. A Serious Case Review led by Torbay Safeguarding Children Board is currently underway.
What arrangements do you have with adult social care to support children aged 16 to 19 to make the transition from child to adult services? Are those arrangements good enough?
Our move as a county council into a People grouping, with a strategic director covering both children and adults responsibilities is, in our view, an important aspect to ensuring better arrangements are put in place.
The majority of children requiring adult social care support services are those defined in Devon as having additional needs.
There are existing arrangements in terms of transition planning and agreed protocols, but it has been recognised that these weren’t providing the most effective solution for ensuring a smooth transition for young people.
We are in the process of developing a new strategy covering the pathway into adulthood: The new strategy covers the age range of 16–25 and includes: — All Young people with Special Educational Needs/Disabilities and mental health needs aged 16–25, who have a statement of special educational needs, or who are identified as requiring support through statutory health and social care assessments and whose needs require continuing support from statutory services. — Young people with SEND needs, who are likely to require service support in adult life to achieve economic independence. — Young people who may be vulnerable as adults eg: — Care Leavers who have SEND and meet levels of support for services up to the age 25./ Young People who are subject to Safeguarding plans ensuring all Devon Safeguarding procedures are followed to support the pathway to adulthood. — Those young people with long term complex medical conditions requiring palliative care and those with life limiting conditions and complex long term conditions requiring assessment and support. — Young offenders-young people in the prison community with identified SEND needs requiring statutory support. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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We have heard that most older children and young people disclose to and seek help from their peers, rather than statutory agencies or organisations like the NSPCC. Do you provide support to peer-led services and forums for older children? We do not have any specific evidence either supporting or refuting the above, although it is fair to say, we will have experience of scenarios where older children have disclosed to a “trusted adult” whether that adult be part of the statutory sector or not AND we have experienced scenarios where it is the child’s peer who raises the alert having been confided in. Critical to enabling any disclosure of abuse is the relationship between the “victim” and whoever they may be speaking with. Statutory agencies may not be perceived, by people of all age groups, as the “trusted” place to go and some of this may be reinforced through stereotypes (ie—social workers are just there to take children away into care). Hence, we would agree that the role of peer-led services or those services that are either not or not perceived to be part of the “state” do have a valuable role to play. A good analogy locally is perhaps in the field of domestic abuse, where three voluntary sector providers (that are part funded by the council and partners) attract referrals to their services directly—the value of not being seen to be part of the state is seen as less threatening and people can access services to meet needs, with perhaps a big worry removed from what they might see as happening if they came directly to the Police or the Council. Schools offering pastoral/counselling support are also perhaps another good example of how children can talk to someone about their worries. We do have forums for our children in care and other mechanisms for engaging with young people through third sector organisations and for example through activities provided through our Youth Services. These forums certainly provide an environment of mutual/peer support. However, it is not our experience that these types of arrangements are necessarily the place where young people would “disclose abuse”. Whilst seeing the clear benefits of peer support and the value in young people being able to talk to their peers if this helps to get help, consideration needs to be given to the impact this could have on the peer supporters themselves. As adults working in this arena, we see things and are told things that are extremely distressing. We deal with this through our training and effective supervision and support from our managers and colleagues. We would need to be mindful of the impact of this on any peer process/forum designed to facilitate disclosures of abuse—equally recognising that at some point, the trusted adult will need to get involved.
Information Sharing In terms of information sharing there remains confusion about what professionals can and can’t say to each other when they are worried about a child. The issue is not an acute problem when a child protection enquiry under Section 47 CA1989 is being conducted, or when a child is subject to a child protection plan or subject to Court proceedings. However, when agencies might be worried about children and the “child protection threshold” has not been met, there is a differential approach by agencies in terms of what they think they can and can’t share. Often, we need to share information to determine whether a risk exists or not. In Devon, we have addressed inter-professional tensions by creating the MASH (and the red box) in which we have said safe, unfettered information sharing can take place lawfully. This covers off cases that are “referred”; however, the MASH should not be the only environment in which professionals can talk to each other about concerns, even when there may not be specific consent to have those conversations. Part of this is the interpretation around what would be seen to be in the “public interests” to share information. We believe greater clarity around this element of information governance would give professionals clearer “permission” to share information. We can think of no greater public interest than that of sharing information to make sure a child isn’t at risk of significant harm, nor indeed that their health or wellbeing isn’t likely to be significantly impaired. A starting point of “if in doubt, share” would certainly redress the imbalance, which appears to be the other way in certain parts of the child protection system. April 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Further written evidence submitted by Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills (Ofsted) Overview 1. Following the Education Committee’s decision to refocus its inquiry into the child protection system in England on three key additional areas, Ofsted wishes to contribute further evidence on child protection issues relating to older children, drawn from its programme of survey reports.
Older young people 2. In October 2011 Ofsted published a report titled “Ages of concern: learning lessons from serious case reviews”.95 The report is an examination of nearly 500 serious case reviews that Ofsted evaluated between April 2007 and March 2011—with a thematic focus on children in two age groups, babies under one year old and young people aged 14 and above. In every year since 2007, when Ofsted assumed responsibility for the evaluation of serious case reviews, it has been children in these two age groups who have been most commonly involved in the serious and often tragic cases reviewed.96 3. More precisely, based on 471 serious case reviews evaluated during the four-year period, 111 children aged 14 or over were the subject of such a review. As the Committee will be aware, Ofsted has evaluated serious case reviews carried out by Local Safeguarding Children Boards since April 2007. Professor Munro’s review of child protection recommended that the evaluation of serious case reviews by Ofsted should cease. The Government has accepted this recommendation,97 and it is likely that the necessary change to statutory guidance will take effect during 2012. 4. Ofsted evaluations demonstrate the diversity of reasons for serious case reviews being conducted in the cases of young people aged 14 or above, indicating that there is less commonality of experience for older children within the child protection system. As the report says, “a notable feature of the cases about young people over the age of 14 is the wide range of incidents that resulted in serious case reviews”. The complexity and range of risk factors facing teenagers, as highlighted in the evaluations, included: alienation from families; school difficulties; accommodation problems; abuse by adults; unemployment; drug and alcohol misuse; emotional and mental health difficulties; domestic abuse in the home; reactions to bereavement; and risks linked to adults’ misuse of the internet. 5. Perhaps reflecting the range of circumstances that young people in this age group can experience, lessons that may be learnt from such serious case reviews are often specific to the particular cases. 6. However, in general, the reviews found that frequently agencies involved in child protection focused on the challenging behaviour of young people aged 14 or over, rather than trying to understand the causes of that behaviour. Often, young people were treated as adults—owing to confusion about the young person’s age or legal status, or because of a lack of age-appropriate facilities. A third feature of the evaluations is that there was a lack of co-ordination by agencies in their approach to the young people’s needs. 7. Young people who need protection and who are aged between 16 and 18 can experience the particular vulnerability of not receiving appropriate services because they fall between adult and children’s services. 8. There is a recurring message that the serious cases highlighted in Ofsted’s report show evidence of professionals not recognising their responsibilities towards the young person as a child in need. Moreover, some practitioners did not always recognise the contribution their agency could make to improve outcomes. 9. Extracts from specific serious case reviews confirm these trends.98 Some individual reviews highlighted issues which they believed were of national application—for example, the difficulties of supervising in the community those accused of sexual offences while on bail. 10. In contrast to the cases of safeguarding younger children, where the principal agency involved was health, older children—and the effect is more pronounced over the age of 14—tend to have contact with a much wider range of agencies. Children’s social care, health, the police and education, practitioners from the Connexions service, the Youth Offending service, the Probation Service, drug and alcohol misuse services housing services, leaving care services and Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAHMS) may all be involved. Commonly, young people “bounced” around the system, with no one agency taking overall responsibility for their welfare or holding a comprehensive understanding of their needs. Reviews highlight the complexity of the range of practitioners involved, and the importance of ensuring a co-ordinated approach to the young people’s needs. 95 Ages of concern: learning lessons from serious case reviews, Ofsted, 2011, ref. 110080. 96 Ofsted has previously published five reports on the lessons to be learnt from serious case reviews—covering reviews evaluated by Ofsted between April 2007 and the end of September 2010. 97 See The Munro review of child protection: final report, a child centred system, DfE, 2011; www.education.gov.uk/munroreview/downloads/8875_DfE_Munro_Report_TAGGED.pdf and A child-centred system: the government’s response to the Munro review of child protection, DfE, 2011; www.education.gov.uk/munroreview/downloads/GovernmentResponsetoMunro.pdf 98 See Ages of concern: learning lessons from serious case reviews, Ofsted, 2011, ref. 11008, pp 18–20. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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11. This complexity is illustrated by the case of a young person with Asperger’s Syndrome who committed a range of sexually related offences. One finding from the review demonstrates the point: “Overall agencies were slow to recognise the significance of the boy’s behaviours at home, in school and in the community. An error by children’s social care and lack of persistence by the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service meant that an opportunity for an earlier assessment was lost. A joint assessment by the Youth Offending Service and children’s social care was weak in its conclusions. The plan was not properly developed and there was a lack of communication between the Youth Offending Service and the police at key points.” 12. Findings from a single review encapsulate the lessons from cases about this age group of children over 14. The overarching messages from the case have two common failings of agencies concerned with child protection: not determining the appropriate status for a young person with significant safeguarding needs; and not adequately working together to fulfil their child protection responsibilities. 13. The review concerns a young Polish national aged 17, who was abandoned by the father with whom he had come to England—having to live alone and without access to public funds. Arrangements to take responsibility for his care were unclear in subsequent months, ricocheting between the children’s social care team and the No Recourse to Public Funds (NRPF) team. At one point the former closed the young person’s case while the latter ceased payments. The young person had contact with several local services—charitable organisations for the homeless, the local accident and emergency service, the police, the Youth Offending service, children’s social care, the Youth Court, the homelessness service, and CAMHS; but the review observed that “overall agencies were slow to recognise the significance of the boy’s behaviours at home, in schools and in the community”. 14. Serious case reviews, almost by definition, focus on cases where the system has in some sense failed. Ofsted has also highlighted in its survey programme some good and outstanding practice. A recent survey report looked at practice in eleven local authorities committed to “safely” reducing the number of older children and teenagers coming into care, and managing the risk associated with maintaining the young people within their families and communities.99 15. There were many differences in the range of approaches and services examined, but there were also some key common factors: strong multi-agency working, and consistent decision-making processes, for instance. Successful services were responsive, sometimes on a seven day a week basis, and they were focused on practical as well as emotional support. Often, success was down to one individual who built a relationship with the family and the young person and had the resilience to hold on to it even when they tried to drive the worker away. Many families’ previous experience of services had been very different—the parent, who had seen 14 different social workers in a year, or the mother who had made repeated calls to a duty service because her 12 year old daughter had refused to return home, and no-one had returned her calls for a week. “While families were extremely positive about the impact of the help they had received, and for some it was clearly life-changing, it was often accompanied by a sense of disappointment that difficulties had not been picked up and effective help offered at an earlier stage.” February 2012
Further written evidence submitted by Against Violence and Abuse (AVA) 1. Background AVA (Against Violence & Abuse), formerly GLDVP, was formed in April 2010 to take over the work of the GLDVP previously in existence for 12 years. AVA is a national second tier service working to end all forms of violence against women and girls. Building on the success and achievements of the GLDVP the key aims of AVA are: — To challenge, enable, encourage and support all agencies and communities to contribute to achieving our vision of a world free from violence against women and girls. — To offer a range of high quality and expert services to facilitate specialist and generic agencies to contribute towards our vision. — To identify and fill gaps in the field, find innovative solutions to current and emerging situations and inspire an effective strategic approach to reducing and preventing violence against women and girls. In line with the United Nation’s Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, AVA understands the term “violence against women and girls” to encompass domestic violence, sexual violence including sexual harassment, so-called honour based violence, female genital mutilation and forced marriage, prostitution and trafficking. Reflecting AVA’s expertise, our response to the inquiry reflects our belief that violence against women and girls is a key child protection issue that should be tackled at both a national and local level. 99 Edging away from care—how services successfully prevent young people entering care, Ofsted, 2011, ref. 110082. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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2. General Comments about the Enquiry AVA wishes to thank the committee for inviting Joanna Sharpen to give evidence on child protection and domestic violence. We welcomed this opportunity to be involved in such a crucial consultation and are happy to provide the committee with more information if needed. With that in mind we are pleased that the inquiry has been extended to look at key specific issues and we would like to respond to the issue of Older young people (especially those aged 15 to 19) and child protection. Much of our original evidence both written and oral is relevant to this issue and we would ask that this be taken into account.
3. Older Young People (especially those aged 15–19) and Child Protection We believe that violence against women and girls is a key child protection issue and teenagers are specifically vulnerable and often overlooked. The evidence we provide below will show that teenagers are facing high levels of abuse in their relationships and that this is a child protection concern and should be treated as such.
(i) Prevalence These statistics serve to highlight how commonplace domestic violence and wider vawg issues are in our society and the hugely detrimental impact they have on children and young people. — One in five (18.6%) 11–17 year olds have been physically attacked by an adult, sexually abused, or severely neglected at home (NSPCC, 2011). — Over a quarter (26%) of young adults reported that physical violence sometimes took place between those caring for them during childhood. For 5% this violence was constant or frequent. (Cawson, 2002) — In 40% to 66% of domestic abuse cases, the same man is also directly abusing the children. (Edelson, J.L, 1999) There is a strong correlation between domestic violence and child maltreatment: — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been neglected, 88% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 59% the violence was constant or frequent; — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been physically abused, 75% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 36% the violence was constant or frequent; — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been emotionally abused, 71% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 48% the violence was constant or frequent; — for those young adults who said that during childhood they had been sexually abused, 54% had lived with some level of domestic violence, and for 20% the violence was constant or frequent. (Cawson, 2002); — research has identified that teenage partner violence is associated with a range of adverse outcomes for young people, including mental health, depression and suicide. (Collin-Vézina, D et al 2006); — a survey of 600 11–16 year olds found 17% had been forced into sex (AVA, 2011); and — an online poll of 16–18 year olds found that 40% of girls had been coerced or pressured into sex, 42% of girls had been hit by boyfriends and 59% of young people felt they did not have enough information to advise their friends if they were experiencing abuse. (EVAW, 2006)
(ii) How older children can experience VAWG and the links to child protection Teenagers can be affected by domestic violence at home as well as in their own intimate relationships. Often these relationships are not taken seriously enough by professionals who can sometimes assume that they are not serious or are quite short-term. However, many research studies have shown that on average 40% of young people are in abusive relationships. The recent Home Office campaign on teenage relationship abuse clearly showed what a serious issue this is and how many young people are affected by this issue (160,000 young people visited the website). The campaign also highlighted the fact that for many young people, abuse is relationships is normal and to be expected. Evaluation data from 800 young people who had accessed the website found that 37% of 17–18s had experienced some form of relationship abuse, rising to 45% for lower socio economic groups. In a recent evaluation of six projects around England, from the 600 young people surveyed we found 17% had been forced into sex and yet more had experienced sexual bullying at schools. It is also important to understand how teenage mothers are especially vulnerable to abuse and the child protection implications of this for mother and child. Teenage mothers are less likely to attend ante-natal appointments and have fewer resources to enable them to leave abusive relationships. Linking to this, young girls are also vulnerable to sexual exploitation, often affiliated to gang based sexual assault. Recent government safeguarding guidance does not give enough specific detail about how local authorities should respond to gang cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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related sexual exploitation and abuse. More guidance is needed to ensure the safety of young girls who are abused in this way. Please see the ROTA “Female Voice in Violence” report for more specific recommendations. http://www.rota.org.uk/webfm_send/27
(iii) Lack of appropriate training, responses and service provision The comments below are representative of the 1,200 received on the “this is abuse” website and show alarming responses to serious incidents of abuse that were not responded to appropriately: “My boyfriend’s beat me up many of times the first time was because I went out without his permission, the police did nothing. The second time I tried calling the police but he smashed my phone up before I could and the times after that I gave up on seeking for help, now I’m just a crushed teenager with no where to turn to...” “I was in an abusive relationship for three years from the age of 16–19. I finally plucked up the courage to go to the police and was quite shocked at their comments in relation to death threats I was receiving saying that they were probably ‘water of a ducks back’.” “Between the ages of 18 and 19 (I’m 23 now) I was in an emotionally and physically abusive relationship. I was punched in the face and thrown down the stairs amongst other things. Once I had broken up with him, I received death threats and up to 100 phone calls and text messages per day. I was worried for my safety and called the police. I expected them to take my report seriously, and to act on it. Instead, I was told that he was simply ‘heartbroken’ and that there was nothing they could do to help me. This was despite me detailing the assaults I experienced and telling them that there were witnesses to these assaults.” Other comments clearly show that young people are experiencing concerning levels of domestic and sexual violence and have no idea of how to access support and protection: “I am 13 and have been going out with a boy of 16 for six months now. at first he was my prince, calling me his stunning princess and all that but now he’s like the monster … he said that unless I slept with him, he would tell everyone I was frigid. So I did … Now I have found out that he was just using me for sex and experience … I dumped him one month ago and I had been doing self harm. Now he said he would never do it again and we are going out again, but I’m scared he will hit me. again. Please tell me what to do, I’m desperate.” There are many reasons and fears as to why young people find it hard to access support or to disclose abuse in the first place. These include: — Fear of repercussions from the perpetrator. — Fear of not being believed by professionals. — Not knowing where to go. — Not realising that they are even being abused in the first place as it is seen as normal and acceptable. — Services not being able to accept referrals for under 18s. Unfortunately, although teenagers under 18 should be responded to by children’s social care services, in practice this does not always happen and the 15–18 year old age group in particular fall through the gaps. Even if they are seen by social services, they are often not equipped to respond to their specific needs and there are very few specific services to refer onto. All too often, if referred anywhere it will be to a non-specialist services such as anger management (which is not appropriate for young people using abusive behaviour) or mediation (which is not appropriate where domestic violence is involved). Young people may also come to the attention of services in other ways where the abuse will be a secondary issue that only comes to light as part of a referral for something else such as youth offending behaviour, substance use or mental health issues. In these cases, the abuse is not usually seen as an intersecting issue that also needs to be addressed.
(iv) Our recommendations — Abuse in teenage relationships to be seen as a child protection issue. — The definition of domestic violence to be reduced to include 16–18 year olds. — All key frontline staff (police, social workers, teachers) to receive specific training about VAWG in their child protection training. — All staff from agencies where relationship abuse may be a factor the lives of the young people they work with (ie: YOTs, substance use teams, CAMHs, youth workers) to be given training about risk assessing for and responding to relationship abuse. — Local safeguarding guidelines to be updated to include specific guidance for key issues affecting young people (such as gang based sexual exploitation, teenage pregnancy, teenage relationship abuse) including how to safely respond, ask appropriate questions and recognise warning signs. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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— Young people to be involved in service planning and delivery to ensure services are appropriate and provide a safe space to seek help about abuse. — Schools and other youth settings to make health relationship education a core part of the curriculum so young people are equipped to recognise abuse in relationships and empowered to seek help. “I think domestic violence and relationships should be taught about in schools. Not just a one hour slot squeezed into PSHE, but a comprehensive module including discussion, case studies, facts and myths etc. We need to be supported to understand what is love and what is abuse, develop strategies for protecting ourselves, told about places we can go to for help and given the confidence to stand up for what’s right.” AVA has produced a set of proposed procedures for safeguarding children affected by domestic violence which we would encourage the review to take into consideration. http://www.avaproject.org.uk/media/15627/lscpprocedures.pdf April 2012
Further written evidence submitted by NSPCC (Annex A) THE CHILD PROTECTION SYSTEM IN ENGLAND INQUIRY Thank you for inviting the NSPCC to give oral evidence to the Committee and for giving us the opportunity to describe the work of our Adult Advice and Information Service (AAIS) and ChildLine. On reflection following our evidence session we would like to take this opportunity to invite members of the committee to a tour of both ChildLine and the NSPCC Helpline. We have enclosed a brief proposal for the visit for you to consider. We would also like to elaborate on two points made during the evidence session: the need to provide a single point of contact for anyone who has concerns for the welfare of a child and the need to better respond to the specific needs of 16–18 years olds in the child protection system. Central to the effectiveness of any child protection system is the ability for those who come into contact with children to seek advice and assistance if they have child welfare concerns. While there are points of contact available from local authorities and police to report instances of child abuse, and a range of organisations providing advice, confusion remains about the most appropriate agency (eg police, social services or a relevant local authority agency) to contact. There can also be difficulties accessing services out of hours. The out of hours service for an entire local authority’s children’s services department have very few social workers often operating from home with a work mobile phone. Callers will not be able to report anonymously to them as callers have to leave details with a third person in that authority who subsequently passes on their contact details to the on duty social worker. It is not unusual for users to have to make numerous enquires before reaching the correct person for support, and to determine if the concerns they have warrant such a contact. Negotiating agencies is increasingly a challenge for the public and professionals, especially for those requiring a confidential service and very difficult if they wish to access them outside office hours. A nationwide single point of contact to report children at risk of abuse and give advice to those with concerns about a child, available 24/7, is required to encourage concerned individuals to make a disclosure about a child at risk of abuse and to ensure that agencies are able to take appropriate action. The NSPCC’s Helpline is a good model of such a service. This would not replace in entirety local reporting points and the 999 service, but would support and alleviate the pressure on such services by providing advice to the public, filtering calls and referring calls to the right agency, especially outside office hours. The second issue relates to the specific needs of 16–18 years olds in the child protection system. We are concerned that the child protection system is geared towards meeting the needs of younger children meaning that older young people may not be having their needs met. For example, child protection plans and the option of being taken into local authority care are rarely suitable options for 16–18 year olds. Further to this, there is evidence to suggest that social services often prioritise provision to younger children because they consider older children to be more resilient and more able to cope with the effects of abuse. Too little is known about which approaches work best for older young people and more research is urgently needed on the experiences of adolescents as they move through the child protection system. In particular, policy makers should consider whether current assessment processes, and the ‘Team around the child’ approach is appropriate. Please let us know if the committee would like to visit ChildLine and the NSPCC Helpline in the New Year and if you have any questions or would like more information on any of the issues raised then please do not hesitate to contact us. April 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Further written evidence submitted by NSPCC (Annex B) ORAL EVIDENCE TO HOUSE OF COMMONS EDUCATION SELECT COMMITTEE INQUIRY INTO CHILD PROTECTION—11 JANUARY 2012 Thank you for inviting NSPCC to give oral evidence to the Education Select Committee Inquiry into Child Protection and for your letter following the oral evidence session. It was a privilege to give evidence to your Committee and I hope that you found the session useful and informative. During the session I said that I would provide further information about some of NSPCC’s services. This information is attached. In addition you asked those giving evidence to think about the recommendations that we would hope the Committee would make in your report and I wanted to follow up with you on this. In my evidence I made a number of recommendations to the Committee. I should like to take the opportunity to restate here our recommendation that the Government should review the definitions of neglect in both criminal and civil proceedings. Neglect is the most prolific form of abuse and there needs to be better assessment and early action for children suffering neglect. According to recent Department for Education statistics, the most common primary need at initial assessment, for those children in need as at 31 March 2011, was “abuse or neglect” which accounts for 44% of cases, followed by “family dysfunction” (17%). Neglect is also the most common initial category of abuse under which children became the subject of a plan (42.5%), with emotional abuse being the next most common category (27.3%) followed by physical abuse (13.0%). Unfortunately, there is a real difficulty with the two legal provisions dealing with neglect; the Children Act 1989 within child and family law and the Children and Young People’s Act 1933 within the criminal law. The existence of a separate crime of neglect (Children and Young Persons Act 1933, section 1) has at times seemed to make it harder in some cases to satisfy a court of evidence to meet the non-criminal threshold for neglectful maltreatment under the Children Act 1989. NSPCC has heard evidence of confusion over when either of these would apply. Some cases can fall between the two provisions which can mean neither the child nor the family receive the help they need. We would therefore recommend a review of these definitions and how they work together. I also said that I would write to you about some of the services that we are developing to tackle the problems that your Committee is investigating as part of your inquiry. Please find further information about some of the specific services that we provide to help protect vulnerable children and to provide better support for parents and families. The three commissions I have highlighted are to tackle issues such as neglect and physical abuse and to provide early intervention.
NSPCC Services As part of the NSPCC Strategy we are rolling out 27 commissions which are supported by research, and will enable us to gather robust evidence to demonstrate innovative or pioneering ways of helping children and young people. We will use the learning from our work to influence changes in policy, practice and behaviour, encouraging others to take up our ideas and services and deliver them more widely. Below are descriptions of three of those commissions that are most relevant to your inquiry.
Minding the Baby Minding the baby is an early intervention service which helps vulnerable first time mums who are under 25 years old form an attachment with their child as well as providing the mums with advice and support. Pregnancy and the first year of a child’s life is the best time to establish good parenting and prevent abuse before it starts. “Minding the baby” is a new way to help vulnerable first-time parents care for their babies and cope with the challenges of their new role. Local NSPCC workers and children’s nurses will visit new mums at home to provide an intensive programme of support not otherwise available. Regular home visits will start three months before the baby is born and continue up to their second birthday. During the home visits the workers will discuss how new mums are getting on and help them find better ways to care for their new babies. As well as providing practical support like feeding tips, help with housing or financial advice, the workers will help mums who are struggling emotionally. The NSPCC will work with local children’s services to intervene if a baby is at risk of abuse or neglect. “Minding the baby” will focus on the families who need the most help. It will be offered to first-time mums aged under 25, who are struggling with problems such as depression, homelessness, poverty, violent relationships. The mums may also have suffered abuse or neglect in their own childhood. The new teams will work with the mums, dads and other family members to prevent their babies suffering abuse or neglect. Families will be offered the service by their GP or midwife, and the parents will choose whether they wish to join. We will work in partnership with other organisations like local health services and Sure Start Children’s Centres. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:20] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Babies are most vulnerable in the first few months of their life. Research shows that babies are more likely to be abused or neglected if their mums have poor mental health and fail to bond with them well. It’s a shocking fact that almost half of all investigations into serious abuse involve a child aged under one. Babies are also eight times more likely than older children to be killed, and the risk from parents and carers is greatest in the first three months of a baby’s life. Supporting young mums and dads who are struggling to cope with parenthood is one of the best ways to stop child cruelty before it starts. Intervening early gives babies the best possible chance in life and means children need fewer support services as they get older. This service will operate in Glasgow, Sheffield and York.
SafeCare¨ SafeCare® is a programme where NSPCC workers visit homes where children have been referred to the local authority because of early concerns about neglect to train parents to be more attentive to their child’s needs and help make the parents make the home safe. Babies and pre-school children need a high level of parental care. Parents who physically or emotionally neglect a child at this age can cause immense, lasting damage to their child’s development. The NSPCC is piloting a programme in the UK to help end the neglect of children under five. The SafeCare® model of working with parents who are starting to neglect young children has been tried and tested in the USA. We believe it can also be used in the UK to halt neglectful behaviour and prevent parents from causing serious harm to their young children. We will deliver the programme—known as SafeCare®—to the parents of neglected children in the UK. NSPCC workers will visit homes where children have been referred to the local authority because of early concerns about neglect. They will see parents and children for around five months, for one to two hours every week. Our home visitors will prevent further neglect by training mums, dads and partners to be more attentive to their children’s needs and challenging neglectful behaviour. They will show parents how to play with young children, keep them healthy, feed them well and handle crying, tantrums and other difficult behaviour. They will work with the parents to make the home safe and establish safe routines. During the programme, the therapists will work with local children’s services to support the families. This service will operate in Birmingham, Crewe, Leicester, Swindon and West London.
Preventing non-accidental head injuries in babies The NSPCC is running a programme to educate parents about the risks of inflicting head injuries on their babies by getting midwives to show a DVD to parents of new born babies in hospitals in locations around the UK. Abused babies are more likely to die from head injuries than any other cause. We are aiming to reach the parents of 80,000 infants born over two years. We have made a DVD about non-accidental head injuries. Midwives will show the DVD to parents of new born babies in hospitals in locations around the UK. The film helps the mums and dads understand the dangers of shaking a baby, how to respond to their baby crying, and how to cope with feeling stressed and tired. The midwives talk to the parents about the film and answer questions. They help parents think about how they might deal with frustrations without taking it out on the baby. They also ask parents to sign a statement that they’ve seen the DVD and give them a leaflet to take home. Before they leave, midwives ask the parents to promise to care safely for their baby. The NSPCC has developed the programme with the Great Ormond Street Children’s Hospital and a number of experts. We will work with health trusts to deliver the materials to new parents. Babies are very vulnerable to being shaken in the first few months of their life; at this age head injuries are the most common cause of non-accidental death or long-term disability. It is estimated that one in nine mothers shake their babies at some point, but the true number is likely to be higher as babies with mild injuries may never be seen by a GP or hospital. Babies under one are more likely to be killed by their parents and carers than any other age group. Almost half of all investigations into serious cases of abuse involve infants. We believe that teaching parents how to handle their baby and cope with stress may be the best way to protect infants from non-accidental injury. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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This will be the first educational programme of its kind in the UK to educate parents about the dangers of shaking a baby before they take their new-born home. In the USA, a project called The Buffalo Programme used a similar DVD-based parenting programme. That scheme led to a 47% drop in non-accidental head injuries to babies. We are hoping to achieve equally dramatic falls in the number of children suffering non-accidental head injuries in the UK. This service will operate in Belfast, Blackpool, Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, Glasgow, Ipswich, Leicster, Liverpool, Prestatyn and Swansea. April 2012
Further written evidence submitted by NSPCC (Annex C) The Impact of Neglect and the Long Term Consequences of a Delay in Intervention where there is Evidence of Neglect 1. Neglect is the most pervasive form of abuse yet there still needs to be better assessment and early action for children suffering neglect. According to recent Department for Education statistics, the most common primary need at initial assessment, for those children in need as at 31 March 2011, was “abuse or neglect” which accounts for 44% of cases, followed by “family dysfunction” (17%). Neglect is also the most common initial category of abuse under which children became the subject of a child protection plan (42.5%) with emotional abuse being the next most common category (27.3%) followed by physical abuse (13.0%).100 2. In our 2011 prevalence study, 13.3% of 11–17 year olds reported that they had experienced neglect at some point in their lives. 9.8% of them reported neglect which the researchers assessed as “severe”. Parents themselves reported that 5% of under 11 year olds had been neglected, 3.7% considered as severe neglect.101 3. At the heart of any definition of neglect lies a lack (or loss) of recognition by adults that the child is a person with needs and a lack (or loss) of empathy for their needs. Neglect can have serious consequences for children, including mental health problems, difficulties in forming relationships, lower educational achievements, an increased risk of substance misuse, a higher risk of experiencing abuse as well as difficulties in assuming parenting responsibilities later in life.102 4. Without effective intervention, neglect can lead to serious victimisation of the child both within and outside the family. In some cases this results in multiple abuse and death through attrition, murder or the child’s suicide.103 5. More needs to be done to address neglect effectively. An important problem is that there is a real difficulty with the two legal provisions dealing with neglect; the Children Act 1989 within child and family law and the Children and Young People’s Act 1933 within the criminal law. In particular, there is a tension between the wilful element of the criminal definition and the civil definition which is centred on the notion of the persistent failure to meet a child’s needs resulting in significant harm. This tension makes it harder for professionals to decide whether to intervene or not and when. 6. The existence of a separate crime of neglect (Children and Young Persons Act 1933, section 1) has at times made it harder to satisfy a court of evidence to meet the non-criminal threshold for neglectful maltreatment under the Children Act 1989. NSPCC has heard evidence of confusion over when either of these would apply. Some cases can fall between the two provisions which can mean that neither the child nor the family receive the help they need. 7. For example, in a case of neglect, the action or lack of action by a parent may not meet the criminal threshold, but recurring incidents of neglect below the “significant harm” threshold may not be considered for their cumulative effect and therefore will not trigger intervention under the Children Act either. 8. Additionally, we have concerns that neglect is viewed as a chronic phenomenon with the result that professionals wait for neglect to persist before intervening. There is also a corresponding reluctance from the courts to accept neglect as meeting the significant harm threshold in the absence of severe incidents or prolonged developmental damage. 9. The NSPCC would therefore welcome a review of the criminal and civil definitions of neglect and how they work together. 100 DfE: Characteristics of Children in Need in England—2010–11 Available at http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/recentreleases/a00199334/children-in-need-in-england-2010–11 101 Radford et al (2011) Child abuse and neglect in the UK today, London: NSPCC. 102 Taylor, J & Daniel, B (eds) (2005) Child Neglect: Practice Issues for Health and Social Care. London & Philadelphia: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. 103 Gardner R (2008) Developing an Effective Response to Neglect and Emotional Harm to Children. Norwich and London: University of East Anglia and NSPCC. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Older young people (especially those aged 15 to 19) and child protection 10. The latest official statistics show that 11,620 young people aged 10–15 became subject of a child protection plan in the 12 months to 31 March 2011. This represents 23% of the total for all ages. Relatively few people aged 16 and over became the subject of a child protection plan—1,310 in the year ending 31 March 2011, 2.6% of the total.104 11. In 2010–11, our Childline service received 73,764 calls from 15 to 18 years olds, representing 31% of total calls. In previous years, calls from this age group made up approximately 23% of the total. The four primary reasons for calling Childline amongst this age group were family relationships, sexual abuse, depression and mental health, and partner relationships. 12. Our experience with this age group clearly indicates that older young people have specific needs and vulnerabilities, which are not dealt with adequately in the child protection system. Older young people have different experiences of maltreatment, for example, they face a wider range of risks from outside the home, to younger children,105 whilst the child protection system is oriented towards responding to home-based risks. Research has shown that the consequences of maltreatment during adolescence differ from those arising from childhood maltreatment, with complex emotional and behavioural responses.106 Young people are also more likely to turn to their peers, rather than professionals, for help.107 13. How professionals assess and respond to the experiences of older young people is significantly different to responses to younger children. Professionals tend to assess risk as lower and ascribe greater resilience and an increased likelihood of disclosure or self-referral. However, research evidence suggests that these descriptions are not supported by the views of older young people themselves.108 14. Professionals are less likely to use the child protection system to respond to the needs of older young people because they regard the available options as a poor fit. For example, with older young people, social care responses such as holding child protection conferences or being taken into care are rarely appropriate. However, there is a lack of understanding over how well the alternatives work. Furthermore, social workers are not always able to build and maintain consistent relationships with young people who have been maltreated.109 15. There needs to be an improvement in entry points and referrals into the child protection system so that it is more accessible to older young children. Additionally, a wider range of options and tailored support need to be developed in order to keep older young people safe that are adapted to their differing needs, experiences and levels of resilience. This should include allowing young people to be more actively involved in the child protection process, giving them access to a consistent professional for advice and support and ensuring that they have enough information about where to go for help.
Thresholds for intervention, for taking children into care and for adoption 16. As we mentioned in our oral evidence before the Select Committee, we believe that there is a greater need for consistency in the operation of thresholds. Significant variations in rates of children and young people across local authorities (for example in 2011, 20 out of every 10,000 children in Wokingham were being looked after, compared to 142 in Manchester).110 This difference can only in part be explained by different levels of need—variable operation of thresholds also plays a key role.111 Local control over thresholds should be tempered with the need to ensure that children receive the necessary support and help wherever they live. LSCBs need to take a lead role in ensuring that all relevant agencies and staff understand, and consistently apply, thresholds in a local area. They should work to understand the drivers of variations in thresholds in their area, and between their area and other comparable areas, to ensure the best practice is used locally to protect children and young people from harm. 17. There are concerns that threshold levels can be driven by resource constraints and cuts in spending could place children at further risk. Spending on children’s social care by local authorities in England is projected to fall significantly in 2011–12. While cuts appear to be hitting universal services (such as Sure Start) more significantly than front-line child protection, the reduction in spending on “preventative” services may well lead to even greater demands on “protection” services. Furthermore some local authorities are projecting cuts 104 DfE: Characteristics of Children in Need in England—2010–11 Available at http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/recentreleases/a00199334/children-in-need-in-england-2010–11 105 Rees, G et al (2010) Safeguarding Young People: Responding to young people aged 11 to 17 who are maltreated, London: Children’s Society, available at http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/spru/pubs/pdf/safeguarding.pdf, p 154. 106 Thornberry, T P et al (2010) “The Causal Impact of Childhood-Limited Maltreatment and Adolescent Maltreatment on Early Adult Adjustment” Journal of Adolescent Health 46(4), 359–365. 107 Rees, G et al (n 2 above), p 159. 108 Ibid, p 155–158. 109 Ibid p 160. 110 DfE: Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and care leavers)—year ending 31 March 2011, available at http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/index.shtml 111 Narey, M (2007) Beyond Care Matters: Future of the Care Population Working Group Report. London: Department for children, Schools and Families. Available at: https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/DFES-00525–2007.pdf Accessed August 2011. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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in excess of 20% in 2011–12; cuts of this nature might be expected to affect both preventative and protection services. As these services are reduced it is important that we have a greater consistency of the application of care thresholds to ensure that children are protected and supported. 18. Threshold levels should not be about setting targets for children entering care or receiving help, but doing what is best for each individual child. As the evidence base grows around when care is appropriate and which children are likely to do better in care (and those which are not), the lack of consistency in thresholds across local authorities becomes more concerning. Studies of risk and protective factors, attachment and parental capacity to change have provided improved evidence on how to determine which children are likely to suffer harm.112 Our work at the NSPCC is helping to develop a new practice base to implement and test this learning: — We are testing the New Orleans Intervention model. This uses assessments of the attachment relationship between a child and their parents to improve decision making about whether or not a child should return home safely/be adopted. It uses the information to provide tailored therapeutic support for the first year of the placement giving the child a best chance of doing better in care. — The NSPCC’s Evidence-based Decisions for Children in Complex Neglect Cases will test a new tool which is to help social workers in local authorities to make effective decisions in child neglect cases. — Our work on reunification of maltreated children seeks to improve decision making about whether or not it is safe for a child to return home from care and, where it is in a child’s best interests to return, improve the support provided to children and their families to ensure successful reunification so that children remain protected from abuse and neglect. 19. Finally, the NSPCC wishes to stress the importance of decisions relating to intervention and care being based on the best interests of the child. Ensuring the right balance between parental and child’s rights is a fundamental element to decision-making around thresholds. The paramount nature of the child’s best interests is clearly established in domestic and international law and was recently reaffirmed in the Family Justice Review.113 However, there is evidence that decisions about whether to take a child into care have been unduly influenced by the parent’s interests. If decision-making is not guided by the paramount principle, children may suffer unnecessary harm as a result of delay and conflicting priorities. April 2012
Supplementary written evidence submitted by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health Neglect Neglect is the most prevalent form of maltreatment (it is the most common reason for a Child Protection Plan) but it is also the most difficult to recognise. Neglect can occur on its own but it also commonly present where there are other forms of maltreatment too. We know that neglect damages children’s development and has neurobiological consequences and we know that the effects of neglect are cumulative and pervasive. Early recognition is necessary to avoid long term damage. The risk of fatalities is high and may be as high as other forms of abuse. Neglect also causes children to have low self esteem, feel isolated, disengaged and socially disconnected. Adolescent neglect is also widespread and can be linked to suicide and death or serious injury from risk-taking behaviour. We need to be clear about the different forms of neglect to enable professionals to recognise the subtleties of each form and to ensure that policy responses on neglect are not homogenous. There are broadly five forms of neglect: 1. Emotional neglect. 2. Medical neglect: for example a lack of immunisations, missed appointments, not administering medication for other health problems or not seeking medical advice. 3. Nutritional neglect: for example inadequate food/diet; faltering growth and obesity in limited circumstances when there is risk of serious imminent harm (eg presence of co-morbid conditions). 4. Educational neglect: for example not showing interest in or supporting learning. 5. Physical neglect—clothing, hygiene, infestations (such as nits), unsafe homes (eg burns due to electric wires/sockets, or burns due to hazardous substances). 112 See for example, Ward, H, Brown, R, Westlake, D and Munro, E R (2010) Infants Suffering, or Likely to Suffer, Significant Harm: A prospective longitudinal study. Loughborough: Centre for Child and Family Research, Loughborough University; Jones, D, Hindley, N and Ramchandani, P (2006) “Making plans: Assessment, Intervention and Evaluating Outcomes”, in Aldgate, J, Jones, D and Jeffery, C (eds) The Developing World of the Child. London: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. 113 Family Justice Review Final Report (November 2011) Ministry of Justice p 109. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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There is no diagnostic gold standard for neglect and therefore decision making can be difficult and thresholds hard to establish. It is difficult to distinguish between neglect and poverty and it is also difficult to distinguish between parental freedom and failing to anticipate dangers/take precautions—particularly with older children.
Professionals need to be alert to frequent A&E presentations in general, frequent A&E presentations by adolescents in particular (eg substance misuse or self harm) and to recognise that one-off significant A&E visits can be a marker of neglect too.
One group of children often overlooked when considering neglect are unborn children. Issues include maternal drug use in pregnancy, maternal nutrition, domestic violence and antenatal care (eg missed appointments).
Recognising neglect is a jigsaw; with professionals trying to assess the severity of injuries, whether there was appropriate supervision, previous similar events and prompt medical care.
Good chronologies of attendance rates and reasons for non-attendance are very important to record and a comprehensive assessment when seeing families is vital. This should include assessing the carer’s knowledge and understanding of child health development and needs, the family and social history (eg poverty, employment, carer physical and mental health and support networks), the different family connections (eg whether different children treated in different ways by carers and whether child has specific needs that could make them more vulnerable to neglect, such as a disability).
Further, it is important to assess the child’s language and cognitive abilities, behaviour, past illness and accident history, use of other health services and schooling and to seek out information on the child from others, such as teachers or siblings. With adolescents, professionals need to ask proactively about risk taking behaviours.
Lord Laming highlighted the need to be aware of cultural explanations for neglectful parenting. The assessment should also consider the known risk factors associated with neglect (domestic abuse, parental alcohol and substance misuse, learning disability, parental history of poor parenting) and to consider if the carer has the ability, motivation and opportunity to meet the needs of the child.
The examination should be used to observe parent/child interaction and to look out for physical signs of neglect.
We know that thresholds for neglect vary between professionals and professionals need to be prepared to challenge other professionals to ensure appropriate assessment and management of the child’s needs. Other agencies, such as primary health care, early years’ services and children’s social care should be contacted to obtain further information and address other/wider needs.
Professionals should meet the needs that they feel able to (eg speech and language therapy or immunisations) or refer to children’s social care.
Neglect is an area where early help and intervention can reap rewards—nipping problems in the bud is achievable with neglect. However, the government’s decision not to enshrine a statutory duty of early help may mean that this doesn’t occur universally locally. Statutory guidance should be clear about how early help will work within section 10 of the Children Act 2004.
With reference to the definitions of neglect—we are aware that the criminal law definition hasn’t changed in 80 years and that it only covers food, clothing, medical aid or lodging. Action for Children is leading the charge to revise the statutory definition and we support that campaign in principle. Failure to provide for a child’s emotional, physical, nutritional and educational needs must be incorporated into the legal definition.
Interpretation of the concept of significant harm is particularly difficult for neglect; because it is unlikely to be a single, one off episodic event (like physical or sexual abuse) and more likely to be numerous smaller events which need to be patched together by professionals. Neglect in particular requires good interagency communication and information sharing; more so than other forms of maltreatment.
Neglect is a factor in the majority of Serious Case Reviews and has been a factor in several high-profile tragedies in recent years. We know that is can often by overshadowed by other forms of maltreatment and resource-driven decisions may mean children in need of protection are prioritised to the detriment of children in need; where the majority of neglect cases fall.
There is a role for all doctors in recognising neglect—not just those clinicians who see children—but for those professionals who predominantly see adults only; as stated above substance misuse, domestic violence or mental health issues in parents can be indicators of neglect in children.
Ultimately we need to recognise how difficult it is judge on possible cases of neglect—it is about piecing together the jigsaw of factors and drawing the line between those occasional incidences in all families of untidy homes and dirty clothes and the persistent neglect of a child’s basic needs. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Adolescents Firstly, we would like to make it clear that the statutory definition of children is up to 18 years of age rather than 19 years. Adolescents are less likely to present to health services—and so the principle of professionals making every contact count is vital. Many forms of maltreatment are likely to affect adolescents: 1. Gang activity: for example access to weapons, physical violence, knife crime, sexual violence and substance misuse. 2. Sexual exploitation: risk factors include many that are pertinent to adolescents, such as running away from home, special educational needs, being a looked after children, asylum seeking children, school exclusions, substance misuse, gangs and mental health problems. Professionals also need to be alert when adolescents present with STIs, pregnancy or seeking abortions. Other indicators can include chronic fatigue, self harm, overdoses, eating disorders, low self esteem, mood swings/ hostility/aggression and having lots of money/gadgets/clothes. 3. Abuse and technology: for example chat rooms, grooming, social media, mobile phones, online pornography and cyber-bullying. 4. Peer violence: physical, sexual and emotional abuse risks. A significant proportion of sexual offences are committed by adolescents, and offenders could also be victims. 5. Complex abuse: eg abuse in children’s homes, youth services, sports clubs or voluntary groups. Firstly, it must be remembered that early intervention/early help doesn’t just mean young children. Adolescents have huge difficulties in disclosing abuse; they require consistent relationships with professionals to build up trust. Adolescents are more aware of the implications/ramifications of disclosing; thus making them more reticent to. Professionals also tend to think adolescents are more resilient and more able to deal with maltreatment. One misconception is that they can more easily escape abuse and seek help and this ultimately affects and distorts the process of analysing and managing risk. Further, professionals may assume that adolescents know more about the “process”/“system” than younger children but this is a misconception. There isn’t a huge amount of service provision specifically for adolescents, and adolescents need this to become engaged, as they are harder to engage than younger children. It is quite easy to give up on adolescents who look like they are hitting the self-destruct button—it takes an awful lot of work to stem all the individual problems/risk taking. Also, it is easy to think that adolescents contribute to/exacerbate their situation through their own behaviour, ie putting themselves at risk—and we need to break down these barriers. Other issues pertinent to adolescents include that they are more likely to be affected by family breakdown or that they are required to be a young carer. Also, parenting styles are arguably more likely to be neglectful for adolescents. Adolescents are also more likely to refuse consent and not want to be referred for agency intervention. Finally, the transition from children’s to adult’s services remains an issue—gaps in service provision and different thresholds for intervention remain. This may be aided by the health reforms and looking at wellbeing across the life course (eg through Health and Wellbeing Boards).
Thresholds for Intervention Ultimately, thresholds rely on professional judgement, which you can never standardise. The interpretation of significant harm as a concept will always lead to variations. However, we do know that thresholds vary according to a range of circumstances. For example, thresholds are raised when resources are tight. Different professional groups by their very nature also have different thresholds. For example, GPs and teachers may have higher thresholds given their relationships with families. Also, some professionals are used to higher thresholds; for example Health Visitors may be content to carry more risk. Staffing numbers, seasonal variations and sickness rates can all affect thresholds, as can a lack of confidence in the quality of placements outside the family. Affluence and deprivation may also be a factor. It is crucial that the new commissioning bodies created as a result of the Health and Social Care Act understand thresholds for intervention. Processes and tools can help to an extent but ultimately it is always left to professional judgement. Judgement improves when professionals are trained and competent and also subject to peer review, supervision and discussions with colleagues. Multiagency teams can help to standardise interpretations; as can clinical experts such as named and designated doctors as they train other clinicians. Thresholds for severe/repeated physical or sexual abuse are relatively clear—but this is the minority of referrals. Neglect and emotional abuse, the majority of referrals, are very variable. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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National Level Child Protection Structures There is an increasing dismantling of national level structures, aligned to the national government priority of localism. The Department for Education does commission research and outlines some best practice but the mechanisms for ensuring that this information filters down to the frontline are variable. Sharing best practice across regions and across the UK will also be even more difficult given huge national reforms. LSCBs have a key role in coordinating learning and guidance locally but the arrangements for cross- boundary LSCB collaboration are not as robust as they could be—supporting a national LSCB forum would be very useful. Given that statutory guidance is going to be radically shortened, the role of professional bodies such as the Royal Colleges in “filling the gaps” is going to be even more necessary—but has inevitable time and resource constrains and if it is expected to be done without additional funding then bodies may struggle. The importance of national guidance from the third sector and other organisations will be even more important—but this should complement rather than replace detailed and robust statutory guidance. Specifically in relation to the National Safeguarding Delivery Unit, it is clear that champions for child protection across government departments would be beneficial. Multiagency professional advisory groups do exist to try and bring key bodies together but it is important that their advice influences national decisions. An initiative such as the NSDU would require time to mature and embed across agencies and government and to achieve consistency and longevity.
Single Points of Contact/National Help Lines There are some very good resources for children out there, such as the NSPCC help lines. However, there could definitely be more national awareness of the NSPCC Helpline in that it is for professionals as well as the public. We can also build on other existing resources, such as the Coram Children’s Legal Centre help line and resources. There is also a role for local help lines but this is going to be difficult to resource in the current economic climate. The focus which may be more achievable is build up professional competences through education and training to enable professionals to feel more comfortable when seeing child protection cases and to understand local authority thresholds, develop common language and good communication and to use interventions outside of social care referrals where this is more appropriate. Professional advice should be directed to guidance from government, from professional bodies and from the third sector. Further case specific advice should be sought from child protection leaders in the field, such as named and designated professionals.
Information Sharing A positive duty under the Data Protection Act would be a very radical solution but without further thought it would be difficult to know whether it would be a proportionate response and one that embraces the complexities of the ethical dilemmas that professionals face when assessing whether to share information. It must be made clear that professionals don’t intentionally or with any malice not share information; it is just that interpretation of balancing the two opposing concepts of confidentiality and information sharing differ between groups. Also, interpreting the concept of “relevant information” is incredibly difficult. Professionals that work closely with all members of a family, not just the children in a family, will have built up information and relationships and may have different thresholds for sharing information. However, it is clear that the risks or consequences of disclosing information have to be weighed up against the risks to the child of not sharing—and ultimately information should be shared when a child is at risk of harm. The upcoming revised GMC child protection guidance on child protection will hopefully help—it makes it clear that the ultimate and overriding consideration is the welfare of the child. Better information sharing lies in training about when, how and to what extent to share—and also information systems that make it easier to share information will help. Escalation procedures within organisations and up to including multiagency forums such as LSCBs for when professionals disagree about information sharing thresholds should be clear.
GPs GPs are very often the first point of contact for a child when it comes to their health, so it is incredibly important that GPs are appropriately skilled in identifying child protection issues. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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There have been demonstrable improvements in recent times. For example, the RCGP has developed a child protection toolkit, they have committed through intercollegiate guidance to say that all GPs should have at least Level 2 training, with an aspiration to attaining level 3 training. Also, recently the RCGP announced that steps are in place for GP training to be extended by another year (to four years) and one of the key drivers for that is to include more training in child health. GPs are in an unenviable position: they cover the entire life course and are about to inherit approximately £60 billion of NHS spending. What the new Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) must ensure is that they have safeguarding leads, appropriate child protection systems and policies and that they have access to advice from child protection experts. Despite all the developments, we must not rest of our laurels. We need GPs to want to be appropriately trained in safeguarding children. We can do more to allow them the time to undertake training and understand the massive role they can play in helping to recognise and act of suspicions of maltreatment. GPs will also benefit from linking in with school nurses to provide the complete picture about a family.
Health Reforms and Guidance We need a detailed statutory safeguarding accountability framework published which encapsulates all of the issues about safeguarding in the new NHS and sets out the roles and responsibilities of each of the new commissioner and provider organisations. We especially need this because there is a real risk that the revised Working Together will not give professionals the information and guidance they need and want. It is pivotal that named and designated professional posts remain and we are confident they will be—the issue is instead about ensuring they have the time and resources to do the job properly. Our members are clear that they simply do not have enough allocated time, that there are covering huge child populations, that they do not have sufficient training, that they struggle to access decision makers at a local level and that ultimately this means they are not fulfilling their duties effectively. We need every CCG to have access to designated professional expertise—the current CCG authorisation guidance makes a start on this but more detailed guidance could be produced on the safeguarding elements of the CCG role. With named professionals, the new NHS we are going to have many more new providers of health care and they need to be clear about what they need to do to satisfy their statutory responsibilities for safeguarding; for example employing a safeguarding lead.
Health and Wellbeing Boards Health and Wellbeing Boards (HWBBs) are going to hugely influential in the future. For example, they will have responsibility for compiling the Joint Strategic Needs Assessments, and it is paramount that children are represented on both the Boards and in the strategies. There is a risk boards will focus on the quick and easy elements. Child health is also competing with the elderly agenda, as well as all other health inequalities. The obvious answer to ensuring that the Boards will prioritise children and child protection is that there must not be a single Health and Wellbeing Board without a representative for children’s issues. There are not sufficient safeguards to prevent this from happening—the government has not mandated designated professionals to be a member of the Boards, which is extremely disappointing. HWBBs will be allowed to co-opt designated professionals, but our recent survey found that only 13% were actively engaged with their local HWBB. Further we have found that we cannot rely on the Director of Children’s Services (DCS) mandatory membership; due to financial pressures, this role does not exist everywhere. How the HWBB interacts with the Local Safeguarding Children Board (LSCB) is still unclear—the LSCB needs to have real influence and clarity on responsibilities. There can be opportunities with HWBBs though, especially if they can focus on problem areas such as the transition of children to adult services. HWBBs will need to have a dedicated and effective sub-group, ideally one on safeguarding (at the very least one on children’s health)—and that group needs to have the right people on it and not become “just another board to have to attend”.
Ringfenced Funding Shared and pooled funding is very difficult to achieve at a time when resources are so constrained. The first step is identifying individual agency spend; something which is difficult to calculate in relation to child protection work in local areas. Further, the ambitions of the current government are geared toward de-ring fencing grants to local authorities. Possible solutions are more likely to focus on making it clear to commissioners that child protection is not a cheap business and it must be factored into budgets. Child protection leaders in the field need to be able to fight for resources, and this requires access to senior decision-makers and for those decision-makers to utilise the expertise they can provide. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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There does not necessarily have to be a ring fenced budget that is legally binding, but, if there isn’t, there needs to be a cultural shift towards commissioners and managers believing that it is not an option to not factor this appropriately into their budgets. We need to get the message across to organisations that the cost of getting it wrong is so higher than getting it right.
Early Help The government have made it clear that additional statutory duties will not be created, and that for early intervention it should sit within the existing s10 of the Children Act 2004. Feedback from our members has made it clear that if early help is not statutory then it may not happen. The crude argument is that, with little resource and competing priorities, organisations will only be able to do what they have to—and without it being a statutory duty professionals cannot demand action from their organisation. The financial benefits of investing early are clear but even when financial savings and pinned against improved outcomes it still requires restricted resources to be stretched, at least in the short term, to fund both preventative and protection services. We hope you find this additional information useful in your inquiry and please do not hesitate to contact us further if you have any remaining queries. June 2012
Supplementary evidence from Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) Following my evidence to the Committee on 16 May and the Chair’s request for a further written submission, I am happy to provide the responses to the follow up questions put to me. I found the session an extremely useful discussion and hope the following information assists the Committee. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any clarification on the points made below.
Thresholds 1. From an ACPO perspective, what are the particular benefits of co-locating police units with children’s social care teams? How significant a difference has co-location made to joint working on child protection? Every day at the Centre, CEOP sees the success of multi-agency working in terms of identifying and protecting vulnerable children from abuse and sexual exploitation. The Centre operates on a multi-agency model because this results in the best outcomes in terms of targeting offenders and safeguarding children. Multi-Agency Safeguarding Hubs (MASH) are recommended for local forces as best practice by ACPO. Co-location naturally builds better relationships, breeds trust and allows for “leaning across the desk” information sharing. Other benefits of co-location include the ability to work through misunderstandings and “grey areas” quicker. This fosters a clearer appreciation of the distinct roles for police and child protection professionals. An environment founded on instant communication and which promotes closer working relationships creates a stronger investigation strategy overall. This helps victims of abuse and neglect to be identified and protected at the earliest opportunity, with appropriate interventions made. The joint learning enhances knowledge to address prevention strategies whether they be for immediate issues for the individual children concerned or in addressing longer term concerns for others.
2. Should the Committee recommend that all police teams responsible for child abuse/safeguarding be co- located with children’s social care? Is physical co-location always necessary, or can the same degree of co- ordination be achieved by virtual arrangements? Is there any resistance from police to co-location, and if so, why? Co-location is not always necessary and effective information sharing can be done virtually. Nevertheless, co-location is best practice and creates a strong foundation for better and more trusting relationships. Establishing co-located safeguarding hubs can involve certain barriers, both practical and cultural, being overcome by police and the other agencies involved. For example, IT and data protection issues can create challenges. Enhanced vetting requirements are required for other agencies working in the vicinity of confidential police information. Police officers may also be reluctant to access databases on which this information is contained (such as PND and ViSor) in open plan environments. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Barriers to information and intelligence sharing may be created by the staff of different agencies, sometimes because of a lack of understanding of data protection legislation. The legislation provides that information can always be shared to prevent a child from abuse or harm.
There may also be reluctance from staff from different agencies to be co-located because of a perception that working practices and approaches are too different and that this would create a confrontational environment.
3. Is it ever appropriate for police to conduct interviews of children when investigating child abuse, without the presence of a social worker? What could this Committee recommend to ensure that joint interviews always take place?
Best practice is to have two ABE trained persons at the interview, one of which should be a social worker and one a police officer, to offer a rounded perspective on the interview and a wider skill set with which to conduct it. This will also promote better joined up working on cases.
Generally, an assessment should take place prior to every ABE interview (as per CPS guidance around ABE interviews) to ascertain who should take the lead role in an ABE interview. The lead person should be the person with the best rapport with a child, and can be either a social worker or a police officer.
We recognise that there is some bureaucracy around securing a social worker to be available for ABE interviews and improvements should be sought to make the process smoother.
4. What specific difficulties are faced by the police in sharing relevant information with their partners in children’s social care and other agencies? What lessons can be learnt from local areas which have successfully implemented information-sharing protocols?
CEOP and ACPO recognise there can be anxieties among officers around sharing information during active investigations. Officers may withhold sensitive information in order not to compromise these. This needs to be balanced by appropriate levels of trust with our multi-agency colleagues to ensure that crucial information is shared in order to protect children at as early a stage as possible. However by virtue of Section 11 Children’s Act 2004, the interests of the child are paramount. This is a mandatory legal obligation for those identified within the Act.
A lot of unnecessarily held back information is not disclosed due to poor understanding of what can/cannot be shared and sometimes information is not disclosed “to be on the safe side” instead of considering if a child could come to harm as a result of information not being shared. There is the added fear of contravening human rights or data protection laws. A proportionate view must be adopted but always in the best interests of the child.
There needs to be more clarity on information sharing protocols. Scoping for a piece of work to address clarifying these would be a useful step to take. It is likely to be an action of the report being undertaken by the Children’s Commissioner.
Neglect
1. How do you respond to Action for Children’s recent finding that 36% of police officers reported feeling “powerless” to intervene in suspected cases of child neglect? What would give police greater confidence to act?
Risk management and appropriate intervention is about timing and further clarity is needed around when police can intervene if cases of neglect are suspected. This needs to look at what interventions are available to police, specifically at an early stage when signs of neglect are spotted.
A review of the situation should take into account the wider implications and responses of Children’s Services if police take action to remove a child they consider to be at risk.
2. Do you agree with calls by Action for Children and others for the Government to review the criminal and civil definitions of neglect? How would you want to see the definitions change? Should a definition differentiate between what constitutes neglect of children at different ages?
The definitions do need to be clarified and tailored to be more relevant to the agency dealing. However, we would strongly recommend that the definitions are not age specific and should be focused around signs of vulnerability. Imposing age related thresholds for what constitutes neglect may cause indicators of this to be missed. June 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence submitted by The Children’s Society 1. The Children’s Society 1.1 The Children’s Society supports nearly 50,000 children and young people every year through our specialist services and children’s centres. We believe in achieving a better childhood for every child but have a particular focus on vulnerable children who have nowhere else to turn. We seek to give a voice to children and young people and influence policy and practice so they have a better chance in life.
2. Summary of Response 2.1 The Children’s Society welcomes the Select Committee’s Inquiry into the child protection system in England. Our submission focuses on the safeguarding responses to vulnerable young people aged 11–17 years old. The evidence included in this submission is taken from our experience of providing services to young people and from our recent research into safeguarding young people who are maltreated.114 The research provides new evidence to what has been an under-researched area of safeguarding vulnerable teenagers. 2.2 This response sets out evidence relating to: — The child protection system does not currently enable children to receive early intervention support as the thresholds are too high. — Young people are not being identified as at risk by professionals and are often perceived as more resilient or able to cope with situations compared to younger children. — Young people are less likely to receive a children protection response from Children’s Social Care, they are more likely to receive an assessment through a “child in need” referral or through the Common Assessment Framework (CAF). — There are a lack of specialist early intervention services for vulnerable teenagers. — Universal services have a vital role in identifying young people in need of additional support, however there is a lack of training and awareness amongst professionals of the specific needs of older young people. — There are differences in response between and within different Children’s Social Care services to young people aged 11–17 years old who have been maltreated. — A barrier to professionals making a referral to Children’s Social Care is the perception that thresholds and resource constraints would mean they were unable to respond. 2.3 Recommendations — The Government should place a duty on local authorities and statutory partners to secure the sufficient provision of local early help services for children, young people and families. — The new inspection framework should inspect Children’s Social Care on what early intervention services they provide for vulnerable teenagers. — Every professional who works with children should be trained to identify safeguarding issues and be clear about how to refer concerns to Children’s Social Care. — Running away must be recognised as an early indication that a child is at risk. This should be seen explicitly as a child protection issue by all Local Safeguarding Children’s Board’s with protocols and procedures in place backed up by clear systems of accountability and performance management. — Clear accessible information about the safeguarding process should be made available to all young people who come into contact with Children’s Social Care. The child protection system should actively facilitate young people to seek help and ensure that services are provided to support them directly. — Young people should be listened to and their views taken into account within the child protection process to ensure that their needs are met. — The government needs to carefully monitor the timeliness of decision making by Children’s Social Care to ensure that cases are not left to drift without a decision being made.
3. Early Identification and Early Help 3.1 Our experience is that due to high thresholds operated by many Children’s Social Care services, the current child protection system does not enable children to receive early intervention support. The cases that are responded to are mainly children in crisis situations, or who have complex and acute needs. 114 Rees, G, Gorin, Jobe, A, Stein, M, Medforth, R & Goswami, H (2010). Safeguarding young people: Responding to young people aged 11 to 17 who are maltreated. London: The Children’s Society. The research was undertaken in partnership with NSPCC and the University of York. 160 interviews with professionals were carried out with 12 local authority areas including social workers, police, teachers and voluntary sector. In addition, a detailed practice study was conducted in four Children’s Social Care services. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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3.2 We are concerned about the children who do not meet the current thresholds for Children’s Social Care interventions. For this group, consideration should be given regarding how the voluntary sector and universal services work with Children’s Social Care to support the safeguarding process. The Children’s Society fully supported Professor Eileen Munro’s recommendation that there should be a statutory duty on local authorities and their partners to commission services that offer early help to children and their families.115 The new inspection framework should not focus solely on what support children in the child protection system are receiving, but also on the response to those on the “edge” of the system.
3.3 Our research shows that young people are often not identified as being at risk by professionals, and are often perceived as being more resilient and able to cope with the effects of abuse, more able to remove themselves from abusive situations and more likely to disclose abuse than younger children. Our projects have shared how young people’s views are not being taken seriously by professionals and that the information they share is not taken at face value. We know from research that as children get older they are less likely to receive a child protection response from Children’s Social Care services. Instead they are more likely to receive other responses to meet their needs such as a “child in need” assessment or the CAF.
3.4 To ensure that children are identified for early help, universal services such as education and health have a key role to play—both in raising awareness amongst children about how to get help and ensuring that every professional who works with children is trained to identify safeguarding issues and be clear about how to refer concerns to Children’s Social Care.
3.5 Due to cuts to public services, a number of specialist support projects are currently experiencing reductions in their funding or have their funding at risk over the next financial year. A recent report has identified that services for young people have lost a quarter of their funding during 2010–11.116
3.6 A recent analysis117 by The Children’s Society into the cost and potential savings of early interventions with children who run away from home, has found that investing in early intervention results in net savings to public services and wider society ranging from £2,000 for less severe cases to potentially £300,000 or more for children entering the looked after system, or those that have committed crime. The report estimates that the current cost to police, public services and society is up to £82 million every year; this is a conservative estimate with the potential costs being much greater.
4. Factors Affecting Decision Making in Referral and Assessment
4.1 Our practitioners have highlighted that in some areas of the country, Children’s Social Care are using deflection strategies at the point of referral to reduce the amount of cases being accepted. These will include “strategic deferment”, where the referral will be sent back to the referrer to ask for more information about the case and “signposting” where the case will be referred to a more “appropriate” agency or response for the young person. In areas where the CAF is embedded, agencies will be asked whether this has been completed, and whether it has been completed properly, before undertaking an initial assessment.
4.2 Due to the requirement for assessments to be conducted within set timescales, this has led to many areas employing staff to take referrals who are not qualified social workers or to have a central call centre for referrals. As a result of the pressure on social work teams to make these decisions quickly, in many areas of the country quick decisions have been made about cases rather than undertaking quality assessments. Social workers need time to speak to children, understand the complexities of family situations and be able to receive information from agencies who are involved with those families to make an informed decision about the child’s environment and risks faced by them. There should be a balanced approach between providing social workers with time to undertake quality assessments and the need for a timely response to a child, to ensure that we do not return cases drifting without a response.
4.3 Young people were also more likely to be seen by professionals as contributing and exacerbating their situation through their own behaviour. The research highlights a change in perception of professionals from considering of younger children being “at risk” and older young people “putting themselves” in risky situations. Our research has found that there is no difference in the likelihood of an older young person being referred to Children’s Social Care than younger child after an assessment of risk. However, initial perceptions of risk by professionals were found to be affected by age, for example professionals were less likely to refer young people as a result of supervisory neglect and emotional abuse. This uncertainty around assessment is further complicated by older young people being more likely to be at risk from situations outside the family, for example substance misuse and sexual exploitation. 115 Munro, E (2011). “The Munro Review of Child Protection: Final report—a child centred system”. London: Department for Education. 116 National Council for Voluntary Youth Services (2011) “Comprehensive Cuts 3: where are we now for young people and the voluntary and community youth sector?” Available at: http://www.ncvys.org.uk/UserFiles/Comprehensive_Cuts_3.pdf 117 The Children’s Society (2011) “Make Runaways Safe: launch report”. London: The Children’s Society. Available at: www.makerunawayssafe.com cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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5. Appropriate Thresholds for Intervention 5.1 Despite the Government definition on maltreatment being clearly set out in guidance,118 our research highlighted concerns about the different thresholds operated by Children’s Social Care in local areas. Many referring professionals thought that these were determined by to the availability of resources rather than an assessment of the needs of the child. For many professionals this deterred them from making a referral as they did not feel it would be acted on. Addtionally, for professionals working across a number of local authorities with differing thresholds, such as the police, this added further complexity to the referral process. 5.2 Professionals perceived Children’s Social Care services as being less likely to take action in cases involving older young people, particularly for young people aged 15 years and over. Issues around defining and prosecuting cases of neglect and emotional abuse were highlighted as the most problematic in terms of identifying whether or not they would meet local authority thresholds. Research suggests that referrals are typically triggered by an event, or other concern such as sexual or physical abuse, rather than on-going concerns about neglect. 5.3 The case histories of young people aged between 11–17 years old tended to be more distinct and complex than those of younger children. This is because their own behaviour became a part of the assessment, including factors such as substance misuse or risk taking behaviour. Professionals highlighted uncertainty about making a referral for particular situations including young people having sexual relationships with older males, two- way violence between young people and parents and when young people have been thrown out of home and the parents do not want to be part of the child protection process. 5.4 The research highlighted concerns raised by referring professionals about what to do in a situation where parents are reluctant to keep children within the family home. Professionals identified a number of possible alternative responses such as monitoring the situation, providing direct services and working with other agencies, that they might suggest in cases where they had made a decision not to make a referral to Children’s Social Care services,. They identified that the child protection system can be inappropriate when the parent does not want their child at home and young people do not want to refer themselves for help. Professionals reported Children’s Social Care services as using a risk management approach to working with young people rather than a child protection approach. 5.5 Challenges identified by professionals in safeguarding young people aged 11–17 years old include: — resource and capacity issues of Children’s Social Care to respond; — information sharing between different agencies and a clear consistency of thresholds for intervention across agencies; — the need for training and accessible support for professionals in a range of settings; and — working with parents to enhance their parenting skills.
6. Child Protection Policies and Practice of Non-Social Work Agencies 6.1 Non-social work agencies such as the police, education and health services have an important role to play in identifying children at risk, and making the necessary referrals into Children’s Social Care. A child may demonstrate a number of risk indicators and behaviors—for example missing education, running away from home and committing crime—that would make them come into contact with non-social work agencies. Local Safeguarding Children’s Boards should lead this process locally and set out protocols and procedures for all agencies, clearly defining roles and responsibilities for responding to safeguarding concerns. These protocols should contain clear procedures for recording and sharing information between professionals to ensure a joined up response. 6.2 In supporting children to make disclosures, all agencies should receive training about how to work with young people in an effective way. Our research found that many young people were deterred from making a disclosure due to the professional’s attitude, or the fact that they were unclear about the role of a professional. For example, for every child who runs away, on their return the police are responsible for conducting a “safe and well” check. This intervention can identify issues of significant harm, such as violence at home, or the young person being a victim of crime. However, these are not completed effectively in every area, nor is the information shared with Children’s Social Care services to inform assessments for that child. In addition the child should receive an independent return interview from a person the child trusts. 6.3 The importance of the voluntary sector in local areas has been highlighted as a key factor in safeguarding children. These projects are able to provide independent and confidential advice and support for children and their families. The flexible and accessible approach offered by these services is valued by statutory agencies and children due to the ability to provide them with immediate support. Children and young people are often reluctant to share information with the police or social workers due to fear of statutory agencies. The voluntary sector workers are able to build trusted relationship with children to enable them to share information. Projects also provide access to a range of other services including substance misuse support, family mediation and 118 DCSF (2010) Working Together to Safeguard Children—a Guide to Inter-agency Working to Safeguard and Promote the Welfare of Children. London: Department for Children, Schools and Families. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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parenting work. They will have an important role in sharing information with statutory agencies to safeguard and engage children to develop a support package to meet their needs.
7. Children’s Voices and Participation 7.1 It is important to consider young people’s experiences of the referrals process and that these form part of the assessment. In the research many young people highlighted the need to build trust and relationships with a consistent professional in order to support the disclosure of maltreatment. Young people were more likely to initially talk to a friend or family member or, in some cases a professional who they already knew and trusted. A lack of understanding and awareness about what help was available and the roles of different agencies combined to prevent young people from disclosing maltreatment. 7.2 Once in the system, a lack of consistency of social worker and having a social worker with a large caseload who is difficult to contact and does not have flexibility to spend time with them were identified as a barrier to young people disclosing abuse and neglect during the referral process. Young people were often seen as not wanting any support or as difficult to engage, which increased the likelihood of services not being provided to them. 7.3 Many young people highlighted a lack of knowledge around their rights and the processes of the child protection system. They were fearful of disclosing abuse due to a lack of understanding of the role of Children’s Social Care services, or that intervention would result in their immediate removal from the family home. Children raised concerns that disclosure would result in the abuse escalating either against themselves or another member of their family. Children and young people’s wishes and feelings should inform every aspect of the child protection system. It is important that they are able to access information about services that support them to voice their opinion or that represents them or advocates on their behalf.
8. Disabled Children and Young People 8.1 In relation to our work with disabled children, research indicates that this group faces an increased risk of abuse or neglect yet they are under-represented in safeguarding systems. Disabled children can be abused or neglected in ways that other children cannot and the early indicators of whether a child has been abused or neglected can be more complicated to identify than with non-disabled children. Behaviours indicative of abuse such as self-harm and repetitive behaviours may be misconstrued as part of a child’s impairment or health condition. It is vital that professionals are adequately trained and able to identify and recognise indicators of potential abuse or changes in children’s behaviour. 8.2 Attitudes about disability are also contributory factors in the lack of reporting of abuse to disabled children. Estimates suggest that only one in thirty cases of sexual abuse of disabled people is reported compared to one in five in the non-disabled populations.
9. Refugee and Migrant Children 9.1 The Children’s Society would also like to highlight our concerns around particular child protection risks that refugee and migrant children are exposed to. Our key concerns relate to; the lack of effective implementation of the UK Border Agency’s Section 55 duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children; the serious risks posed to children whose age is wrongly assessed and mistreated as adults (including detention and destitution); and the risks posed to non-UK born children at risk of exploitation and abuse in private fostering arrangements. Separated migrant children, including victims of trafficking, still experience considerable disadvantages as the policy responsibility for this area of work does not come under the remit of the Department for Education. However, refugee and migrant children should be treated as children first and foremost to ensure their safety and wellbeing is guaranteed. October 2011
Further written evidence submitted by the Children’s Society Recommendations on Leaving Care The age of leaving care Children can leave care age 16. The most recent data shows that of those who left care in the year to 31 March 2011 36% were aged 16 and 17 and 63% left on their 18th birthday.119 The average age for leaving home for most young people in the UK is now 24.120 It is of great concern that those children who are more damaged and vulnerable have to cope with life on their own at a much earlier age than the average young person. The evidence suggests that those young people who have left care at 16 and have little support to help them cope have the worst outcomes. 119 DfE: Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and care leavers)—year ending 31 March 2011 120 DCSF, Care Matters Green Paper cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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The Children’s Society believes that allowing children to leave care at 16 is wholly inappropriate and that the leaving care age should be raised to 18. Raising the age would clarify the entire transition process as care placements would naturally end with looked after status and the support that entails at 18. It will also align the care system to the increased age of compulsory schooling. The Children’s Society also believes that children should have the option to stay in care longer, up to the age of 21 if they want. The government’s “Staying Put: 18+ Family Placement” pilot aimed to enable young people to stay in foster placements up to the age of 21 if they wish. This approach needs to be made available to all young people in care including those in residential placements. In addition, the government should review policy and legislation, which forces young people in care into destitution by withdrawing vital support and accommodation because of their immigration status.121 In recent years, our services have seen an increased need for support from young refugees experiencing destitution including street homelessness. This affects particularly young people who have come to the UK alone to seek protection, but have been refused asylum. Instead they are given a temporary form of protection until they transition into adulthood, leaving many young people very vulnerable as they turn 18. These young people have come from war-torn countries and places where human rights abuses are rife, and are unable to return voluntarily. Instead they are forced to live without access to any formal support or accommodation for extended periods of time.122
Personal advisers The Children and Young Persons Act 2008 extended the duty on local authorities to appoint a personal adviser who would keep the young person’s pathway plan under regular review to any care leaver up to 25 who is or is planning to be in education or training. The Children’s Society believes this role should be extended to all care leavers until 25 and not just those in education or training. It is perverse that at present those who are NEET and most vulnerable are excluded from support. In addition, the role of personal adviser should be reviewed so that advisers begin working with children in care from an earlier age providing adolescent life skills and emotional support as well as practical advice and support. There should be specific training related to emotional support, resilience and attachment to reflect the wider role personal advisers should fulfill in supporting young people to develop the social networks that help them move into adulthood. Opportunities to develop and maintain friendships is particularly important for young people who have experienced frequent placement movements or have no contact with their families. As part of the review of the personal advisers role the government should explore how they can more effectively ensure that care leavers have access to health, social care and education services that fully meet their needs. In particular from our practice we know that there continues to be a gap and disruption in the transition between CAMHS and adult mental health services.
Accommodation for care leavers The shortage of good quality suitable accommodation for care leavers continues to be a serious concern. Care leavers still experience difficulties with some resorting to “sofa surfing” because they do not feel safe in the accommodation that has been provided for them. Some local authorities are very good at commissioning accommodation and associated support services but many are not. The recently published sufficiency guidance sets out that local authorities “systematically review the current situation in relation to securing accommodation which meets the needs of looked-after children and care leavers” and commission “a range of provision to meet the needs of care leavers including arrangements for young people to remain with their foster carers and other supported accommodation”.123 The Children’s Society would like to see the government actively promote the guidance and monitor the provision of accommodation for care leavers. Government also needs to make sure that sufficient funding is made available, through pooling of budgets or joint commissioning across local authority boundaries, to local authorities that experience particular difficulties in finding suitable accommodation for care leavers due to local housing shortages.
Advocacy Local authorities are required under the Adoption and Children Act 2002 to make provision for advocacy services for looked after children who wish to make a complaint. In addition changes introduced under the Children and Young Persons Act 2008 extened the role of Independent Reviewing Officers to ensure that the local authority gives due consideration to the child’s views. 121 Under Schedule 3 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, support can be withheld or withdrawn from certain groups of migrants and refused asylum seekers. This includes vital support provided under Sections 17, 23C, 24A and 24B of the Children Act 1989—welfare, accommodation and leaving care provisions. 122 For further details see The Children’s Society’s reports: “Living on the edge of despair: destitution amongst asylum seeking and refugee children” (2008) and “Destitution amongst asylum-seeking and refugee children” (2010). 123 DCSF, Sufficiency: Statutory guidance on securing sufficient accommodation for looked after children. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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In our experience these provisions fall short of embedding children and young people’s views in the care process. A professional independent advocate makes sure that children actually understand what is happening to them, assists them in navigating the system and supports them to understand their rights and, critically, makes sure they are met. This is very different from a local authority appointed IRO, who is responsible for facilitating the process and within that expressing a child’s views. Advocates are genuinely independent and in a position to speak up purely on a child’s behalf.
Young people in the care system often say that that as the impartial chair of the review process IROs are not in a position to represent the views of a child. The work of the Children’s Rights Director, Roger Morgan, has clearly shown that children believe they should have a right to advocacy in any process when they have a statutory right to participate or give their views. Under section 53 of the Children Act 2004 local authorities have a duty to ascertain children’s wishes and feelings and give due consideration to them when decisions are being made about a child’s care.
The Children’s Society believes that every child in the care system and the child protection system should have the right to access an independent advocate who can support them to be fully heard so they are actively involved in decisions affecting them throughout either the child protection process or their time in care and in transition out of care. As the select committee recommended in its inquiry into looked after children in 2008Ð09 “advocacy services should be routinely available for all looked after children whenever decisions about their care are being made, not just when they wish to make a commplaint”. This should also be applied to children in the child protection system. In particular, the role of an adovocate is very important for migrant, refugee or asylum seeking children and children who are disabled or have learning difficulties.
Further Recommendations for Older Children
Most of the young people we spoke to for our recent research were confused about what had happened to them at different stages of the safeguarding process and why and what different professionals’ roles are. Simple and clear information about the safeguarding process needs to be made available to young people who come into contact with Children’s Social Care Services.
Referral routes are a key issue in relation to older young people accessing protective services. All agencies working with young people should consider the most effective means of facilitating self-referral by young people, taking into account the need for additional support for the most vulnerable, such as unaccompanied asylum seeking children. Agencies also need to do more to effectively publicise services to the general population of young people and adults.
Young people often turn to their friends and peers as the first source of advice and support when they are experiencing abuse. Schools are therefore an important source of support to young people. Models such as safeguarding forums in schools, or the use of safeguarding mentors in secondary schools may help young people to identify who to speak to and support them to disclose abuse. These could work alongside the child protection leads in schools and feed their views into Local Safeguarding Children Boards.
Young people who have been maltreated need a consistent professional with whom they can build a relationship with and contact when they need to. This requires Children’s Social Care Services and others to consider the most effective way of providing this.
Young people and their families need to be more actively involved in the child protection process and young people need to have more control over the process and information sharing. New ways of working with young people, families and the wider network around the young person may need to be developed to allow this. Advocacy support should be offered to all children in the child protection system.
There appears to be a common professional view that the effects of maltreatment are less severe for older young people than for younger children. This view is not, however, well supported by the limited research evidence that exists on this topic. It is important that the evidence on this issue is more effectively disseminated to practitioners and commissioners and its implications for training, practice and service provision fully considered.
Overall, there needs to be much better training and professional support in child development. Good knowledge and understanding of child development is critical, in particular attachment theory and neurological development, for understanding the impact of poor parenting on a child’s emotional, social and behavioural development. Currently this is not routinely included in social work training or part of professional development. April 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence submitted by Tim Loughton MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Children and Families, the Department for Education
I am writing in response to the Select Committee’s call for evidence to the Child Protection Inquiry, launched by the Committee on 14 July 2011.
On 10 June 2010, we established the Munro Review of Child Protection. This was the very first review commissioned by the Department for Education, underlining the enormous priority I and my fellow Ministers place on improving child protection and helping children, young people and families. From the start, we wanted the Munro Review of Child Protection to be different. That is why, unlike its predecessors, it was not commissioned as an immediate response to a specific incident; why it is recommending that regulation and prescription are reduced rather than increased. And, most importantly of all, that is why it was focused on the child, rather than the system. The review takes a holistic approach to child protection and bases its proposals on evidence and experience.
In her final report on 10 May 2011, Professor Munro provided a very thorough analysis of the issues, including many of the areas the Committee has highlighted as areas it wishes to examine: — whether the child protection system allows for effective identification of, and early help to, children at risk of different forms of abuse and exploitation; — factors affecting the quality of decision-making in referral and assessment, and variations across the country; and — whether the child protection policies and practices of non-social work agencies and Government departments assist professionals to work together in the interests of the child.
Professor Munro’s report looks not just at the problems, but also the underlying environment that allows, indeed sometimes inadvertently encourages, such problems to occur. The Government accepts her fundamental argument that the child protection system has lost its focus on the thing that matters most—the views and experiences of the children themselves.
The Government’s response, published on 13 July 2011, was developed in conjunction with a cross-sector Implementation Working Group. We have been mindful of Professor Munro’s advice not to cherry pick reforms and to consider her recommendations in the round, looking at the whole system.
Responding effectively to Professor Munro’s review presents significant opportunities and significant challenges. The Government is committed to continuing to work in partnership to meet those challenges. Our aim will be to create the conditions for sustained, long term reform which enables and inspires professionals to do their best for vulnerable children and their families. The Government’s response to Professor Munro’s review is the first step on the journey of reform. It adopts the principles she proposes for an effective child protection system and responds to the fifteen areas she identifies for reform.
There is now a significant opportunity to build a child-centred system that: — values professional expertise; — shares responsibility for the provision of early help; — develops social work expertise and supports effective social work practice; and — strengthens accountabilities and promotes learning.
Change will evolve and, as our response recognises, it will be possible to move more quickly on some recommendations than on others.
In order to inform the Committee’s deliberations, I am submitting Professor Munro’s final report and the Government’s response as evidence.
The Committee may also wish to take into consideration the Government’s commitment to publishing an action plan on child sexual exploitation this autumn. Officials in my department are currently developing the plan, engaging other Government departments, national and local agencies and partners in the voluntary and community sector.
I will of course be happy to assist the Committee further as the inquiry progresses.
A further two annex as submitted along with this evidence have not been re-published by the Committee as the two pieces “the Government’s Response to the Munro Review of Child Protection”, and “the Final Report of the Munro Review” are already in the public domain. November 2011 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
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Written evidence submitted by Dr Richard Quirk, Lead GP, NHS West & East Sussex Whether the child protection policies and practices of non-social work agencies and Government departments assist professionals to work together in the interests of the child.
Executive Summary GPs have a wealth of information and experience that they can contribute to the processes to keep children safe from harm in England. GPs and their staff are often viewed as being distant from the process as other professionals struggle to get information from practices and GPs battle between their duty of care and confidentiality to the patient and their duty to safeguard children from harm. In this brief submission I aim to highlight a few of the main challenges when trying to “work together” with GPs and their staff in child protection processes. I am the Named General Practitioner for Safeguarding Children for three Primary Care Trusts in the South East of England. I have been in this role for two years and belong to the Primary Care Safeguarding Children Forum which is a subgroup of the Royal College of General Practitioners. 1.1 The role of general practice staff in child protection can be influential in protecting the child from harm. In this consultation response I refer to “surgeries” as a range of professionals within a surgery whom have responsibility for safeguarding children, not just the GP. 1.2 Surgeries hold significant amounts of information on children and family members which not only include health related information, but often social circumstances, history of domestic violence or drug abuse and relationship matters. Surgeries have a range of professionals who have contact with children and families including the general practitioners (GP) and practice nurses, but also the front line reception staff and administrators who have telephone and postal contact with patients. 2.1 There are a number of issues that make the surgery’s input into the child protection process more challenging.
Confidentiality 2.2 Staff in general practice are trained in the importance of confidentiality and information sharing. The overwhelming drive of staff is to ensure that patient’s information is kept safe. A common complaint from social workers is that they are struggling to get information on children and families from the GP. The views of the surgeries are often that they have a duty to protect the confidential information of the patient and to release information would be a breach of trust with the patient. Recent documents from the General Medical Council and the medical defence unions encourage the surgery staff to act in the best interests of protecting the child from harm and therefore to release relevant information (preferably with consent from the child or parent) when appropriate. This message is still struggling to get through and more training of surgery staff is needed to help them recognise when and when not to release information to social workers and other professionals. Recommendation 1: That Local Safeguarding Children Boards provide multi-agency training on confidentiality and information sharing so that there is a joint understanding across agencies of when it is appropriate to share information (with or without consent) to protect children from harm.
Cultural Differences 2.3 There is significant misunderstanding about the cultural backgrounds of primary care and social care. Social workers often complain that GPs are not able to attend child protection conferences (CPC) or strategy meetings. Due to statutory regulations these CPCs are held at short notice and often held at 10am or 2pm to meet the needs of most professionals who attend. GPs have their surgeries booked in advance (often a month or six weeks ahead) and contain 15 to 20 patients. If a GP were to attend a CPC there would need to employ a locum GP to cover their surgery. As GPs work as independent contractors (effectively self employed), the cost of the locum (usually £70–80 per hour) has to come out of their own pocket. The costs of attending CPCs are therefore prohibitive. This issue is ongoing and there are multiple suggestions of how to over come this. GPs could write comprehensive reports to send to the CPC, the CPC could be held in the surgery, the GP could make a conference call to the CPC to give their views and the timing of the conference could be changed to lunch times when GPs are more likely to be able to attend some or all of the CPC. A more substantial response from the government would be to fund GPs (and/or relevant staff) to attend conferences (and at the same time make it a statutory requirement for them to attend), but in this economic climate I recognise that this is unlikely. Surgery staff often lack understanding of the culture and pressures of Social workers. Surgery staff sometimes have the view that if a member of staff has made a referral to social care then “an investigation” should take place with appropriate action. Social care staff “risk assess” the referral and often feel there is insufficient evidence to meet the threshold for further investigation and further action. They then write to the surgery staff to say that no further action will take place. Surgery staff need to understand that social care staff have to build up a body of evidence often from a range of professionals before thresholds for action are met. Surgery staff cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
Education Committee: Evidence Ev 237
need to be more aware of the risk assessment process that social care staff use and indeed thresholds for investigation. Surgery staff need to be encouraged to continue to send referrals to social care as often individual pieces of information from a range of referrals can build a bigger picture for social care staff and make risk assessment more robust. I would suggest that a placement in social care departments ought to be a requirement during the training of GPs and practice nurses so that they have a better understanding of the culture of social care. Recommendation 2: That the Royal College of General Practitioners be encouraged to include in their curriculum a placement in social care for all trainee GPs to understand the process of risk assessment and thresholds for intervention. Similarly Social workers should have a placement within primary care to understand the culture of general practice. Recommendation 3: Statutory Guidance is created to clearly and explicitly detail the role of GPs (as independent contractors) in safeguarding children and to provide an explanation of how their work in safeguarding should be funded.
Therapeutic Relationship 2.4 Surgery staff have often built up a relationship with families over a number of years. They hold personal and sensitive information on patients from birth. Individual staff (eg GPs) often build up relationships with patients spanning their entire career in general practice. Patients often report that the only professional they truly trust is their GP and there is a long held belief that what they say to their GP is strictly confidential. Within this relationship is an implicit expectation that what is said in the consultation room will stay in the consultation room. When a member of surgery staff then raises a concern about a child or family they struggle with knowing when to report their concerns to other professionals. They don’t want to damage the relationship they have built with patients for fear of losing trust from the patient and potentially doing further harm. GPs and surgery staff need access to good quality advice on when to share information and support in how to handle the possible reactions they may receive from patients when they have shared information. This advice and support can come from named GPs for safeguarding children within the Primary Care Trust or social care. Easy access to these sources of advice are essential and need to be promoted to surgery staff.
The Future of the NHS 2.5 The pending introduction of GP commissioning and the restructure of the NHS nationally and locally risks destabilising the current safeguarding systems within the NHS. The role of the named GP, designated doctor, designated nurse and other key safeguarding roles within primary care need to be established now so that they can work with emerging Clinical Commissioning Groups to ensure that children’s safeguarding is embedded in all future commissioning of services (including adult services). We should use this restructure as an opportunity to highlight children’s safeguarding whilst structures are being created so that safeguarding becomes integral to the future of commissioning. Job insecurity, loss of posts and an uncertainty about where safeguarding posts will sit within the future NHS are all factors that will increase the risk to children as past restructures have shown that vulnerable children can fall “through the net” during service restructure. Recommendation 4: The Department of Health needs to urgently define where the health safeguarding staff (eg named GP, designated doctor etc) sit within the Clinical Commissioning Groups so that they can influence commissioning intentions early in the process. 3.1 In summary GPs and their staff have a significant role to play in child protection but there are a number of factors that make this work more challenging. If there were more statutory guidance on the how GPs can play their part in child protection and how this should be funded then the contribution that they could make could make real differences to children’s lives. September 2011
Written evidence submitted by Jane Held RE: EVIDENCE TO EDUCATION COMMITTEE 7 MARCH—SUPPLEMENTARY WRITTEN EVIDENCE Further to the evidence I gave orally to the Committee on the 7 March 2012 I have set out as requested supplementary written evidence to expand on the issues we discussed. I have clarified the figures on referrals to both Birmingham and Leeds. The figures reflect both contacts and referrals. Birmingham receives between 7,000 and 8,000 contacts per month. It receives between 1,700 and 2,000 referrals per month. On current performance the estimated number of contacts in 2011–12 will be 35,500. The estimated number of referrals in 2011–12 based on current performance is 21,200. Leeds receives between 2,000 and 3,000 contacts a month and between 1,000 and 1,500 referrals a month. On current performance Leeds estimates that the total number of referrals in 2011–12 will be 13,500. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [09-11-2012 15:21] Job: 016587 Unit: PG01
Ev 238 Education Committee: Evidence
We have set up a sub-group in Leeds to focus on the work being done “at the front door” but it has not yet produced its first quarterly report as the new approach to referrals and contacts begins in April 2012. We do not as yet dip sample and track cases from contact to final outcome so regrettably cannot give you data on outcomes at present. This is work that is being developed in both areas but is not yet in operation. I also attach the Annual Report for Leeds, and the Performance Framework for Leeds. Birmingham has not yet done an Annual Report and will not publish its first until July 2012. However Birmingham does have a detailed performance bulletin which can be provided if requested. April 2012
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