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Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 1 IMPORTANT Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION ARTISTS' LIVES BERNARD MEADOWS interviewed by Tamsyn Woollcombe Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 2 F2999 side A Bernard Meadows talking to Tamsyn Woollcombe at his home in London on the 3rd of November 1992. Tape 1. So, today we might start by talking a bit about your childhood, and I don't know whether you remember your grandparents, you know, back a generation, or whether you know anything about them. I know, or I knew, my paternal grandparents. My maternal grandparents died before I was born. Right. And where did the paternal grandparents live? In Norwich. In Norwich as well? Yes. Where you were born? Yes. Right. And so, did both your parents, did they come from Norwich? Yes. They did as well, oh right. It's a bit, it was a society where, people didn't move about much. Absolutely, no. Right, and so it was in Norwich itself that you lived, was it? Yes, well on the outskirts. Right. So did you find...did you used to go out into the country all round there? Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 3 Yes. I used to paint. As a small child as well? No, not as a small child. But did you always have an artistic bent? It's the only thing I could do! (laughs) And were you one of several children? No, I just had a brother. Right. And can you remember anything about your...the home that your parents lived in, that you grew up in? It was just an ordinary lower working-class family home. And did you have any particular toys that you used to play with? Yes, I suppose at that time every boy had a Meccano set. I had rather a splendid one which I built up over the years. Have you still got it? No! (laughs) I grew out of it. Yes. So you started quite early building constructions as it were. Yes yes, being interested in practical things. And can you remember, were there any books, illustrated books or anything like that that you used to read, or get read to you? No, none. Not many books in the house at all? Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 4 Very very few. A few which, for some reason, perhaps it was my mother who had them, but books like `Tess of the D'Urbervilles', and...various books of... Classic novels? Pardon? Sort of classic novels. Sort of fringe type of classic novels, yes, yes. I didn't read them, but obviously...either somebody had...somebody in the family had at some time read them, or they were gifts. Right. And so your mother obviously stayed at home and looked after you children. Yes. And your father, what did he do? He worked for the Norwich Union. Oh right. And my grandfather worked with the Norwich Union! (laughing) And do you still have some connections with that area? I have connections with the Norwich Union, I still pay insurance premiums. And do you go back to Norwich, and that area? Oh yes, I've still got a cousin living there. I go back less and less, because there's little to go back for. At one time I was a governor of the School of Art, but I dropped that. Right. And so, you went to school locally presumably? In Norwich, yes. Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 5 What, you went to a sort of kindergarten first did you, primary school, whatever? Primary school, yes, and then to the...it would now rank as a grammar school, but there was a grammar school in Norwich already, which was a sort of minor public school, which had a foundation of some sort. But you went to something like I think you ... City of Norwich School? Is that right? I went to the City of Norwich School, yes. Yes, right. And so, when you were at your...going back to your primary school, can you remember bringing back works of art? No. Or handicraft? No I don't. It wasn't that sort of school. So when you got to the City of Norwich School, there was presumably an art mistress or art master? Art master, yes. And did you have an afinity with him? Did he see that you were...? Yes, I got on quite well with him. He was quite a good watercolour painter, I suppose in the Arthur Rackham tradition. And did he exhibit anywhere? He exhibited in Norwich; there was quite a good, lively art club, an amateur art club called the Norwich Art Circle. And did they get visiting lecturers in, or... No no no. Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 6 Or was it an annual... Before that time, that sort of time, yes. So it was, what, they had annual exhibitions? They had annual exhibitions. And so were they probably the first pictures that you saw, paintings or...or ... can you remember? I suppose so. Norwich has a tradition, I mean Norwich School... Yes, absolutely, yes. Cromer, and Cotman, and... Yes, exactly. A few other people. And they were on show in the Castle Museum, and the Castle Museum...do you know Norwich? I've never been there I'm ashamed to say, no. Norwich Castle was a Norman castle which had been refurbished in the Victorian era sometime, I forget when, and done over rather badly I think. The fabric was all straightened out and made pristine again, which spoilt the whole result. But nevertheless it had quite a good collection? Yes, it has a very good collection of Cromer and Cotman and other people, yes. So did your schoolmaster take you there, or...? No, no, no. It was before those days too. Right. Sounds very bleak. Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 7 Things didn't happen as they happen now. No, no. Right, so at your school, did you...art was the thing that you shone at was it? As I say, it was the only thing I could do. Yes, right. So had you always got in mind that you would probably go to art school and...? It was a dream, yes. But in those days parents always made sure if they could that one went...did something safe. Yes. I know that...I think it was Terry Frost who said that his parents...it was thought a sissy thing to do to go...well to be an artist anyway, I don't know about going to art school. I don't think that that was the case, it was just the case that my father, working at the Norwich Union had a safe job, and he thought that was the be-all and end-all of all one's dreams ever could be. Yes, I can see his point. And so, you were in Norwich, but did you make expeditions out into the countryside and to the sea and things, because that's quite near? Yes, yes, yes. And did you...what, with your brother, and your... Did you have cousins and things as well, or...? I had cousins, yes. And were you interested in...like, you know, inevitably pebbles and driftwood and can you remember collecting things like that? Not really, no. No, right. So, whose idea...did your art master encourage you about...who raised the question about attending art school? I did I suppose. When I left school it was in the middle of the last big recession, 1931, and I got a job in an accountant's office. Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 8 Oh right, oh that was very good to get a job straight away. And I was paid half a crown a week. What's that? Two and six, which is...twelve and a half p. Twelve and a half p. a week, yes. Probably even less than that now. And I worked at that for three years, doing the ordinary sort of round the house chores, and I got fed up with it, and I think the final straw was when the person who owned the business had my father along and told him I was no good! (laughs) Oh no! So, this was 1934, and finally I got round to persuading him to let me go to the Norwich School of Art full-time. Right. And so, who...did you go in to study painting, or...? Yes. Was it general, or what? No. At that time there were very few schools of art with sculpture departments, very few, and I mean even Henry Moore at Leeds, he had to set himself up a sculpture department, because there wasn't even one there, and that was a much bigger school than Norwich. Yes. So, can you remember who...your teachers there, can you...? Yes, I can remember. I can remember them as personalities. I can't say that they were going to set the world alight. Can you remember...actually can I just go back. You were talking about your art master at the City of Norwich School. Can you remember his name? Bernard Meadows C466/013/F2999-A/Page 9 Yes, it was Walter T. Watling. Right, so now we're back to the Norwich School of Art.