Full Transcript of the Interview (PDF)

AN ORAL HISTORY OF BRITISH FASHION

Leslie Russell

Interviewed by Linda Sandino

C1046/05

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INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET

Ref. No.: C1046/05/01-12 Playback No.: F13773-74; F14372-75; F14535-37; F14683-84; F14911

Collection title: An Oral History of British Fashion

Interviewee’s surname: Russell Title: Mr

Interviewee’s forenames: Leslie Sex: Male

Occupation: Hairdresser Date of birth: 07.05.1943

Mother’s occupation: Housewife Father’s occupation: Factory worker

Date(s) of recording: 03.09.2003; 26.09.2003; 10.12.2003; 21.01.2004; 11.02.2004; 24.03.2004

Location of interview: Interviewee’s flat above salon ‘Smile’

Name of interviewer: Linda Sandino

Type of recorder: Marantz CP430

Total no. of tapes: 12 Type of tape: D60

Mono or stereo: Stereo Speed: n/a

Noise reduction: Dolby B Original or copy: original

Additional material: Two photocopies of magazine articles from 1960s about the interviewee and hairdressing styles.

Interviewer’s comments: Noises on tapes 3 – 6 are building work on neighbouring property. Interruptions from daughter (occasionally). Whine on tapes 7 – 9 from central heating boiler.

Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 1

[F13773 Side A]

Say my name and my date of birth, yes. Leslie Russell, 7th of May 1943.

And where were you born?

Born in Carshalton, in Surrey.

Tell me about your family background.

I’m one of six children, three boys, three girls. We lived on council estates mostly, well always. Went to state schools. We were I suppose what you would call a working-class family.

What were your parents’ names?

My mum was called Lillian and my dad Robert. And...

Do you know how they met?

No, I don’t know how they met, that’s not... I’ve got a cousin actually, he’s trying to do a family tree at the moment, you know, on the Net I believe, but I don’t really...I’ve got some, some history but not really how they met, no. And we never really... My father seemed to...he didn’t have any contact with his family at all, so I don’t know...I don’t know why, and I don’t know anything about his family. I know more about my mother’s family. Yup. They were, both come from Camberwell. I know a bit about my grandfather now, and my grandfather, but I don’t...my grandmother died when I was quite young, about nine I think, and I only remember seeing her once.

And what did your maternal grandfather do?

What did he do? I know he came from Le Havre, so he was French. He, it seems... It’s a bit unclear but I think he had two businesses, one was horse-drawn cabs, and the Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 2 other was, which he definitely had, was a fruit and vegetable business, and I think he was probably supplying restaurants and things like that, and probably coming from France I would have felt. The other extraordinary thing, I’ve only just found out, is, they had thirteen children, and, one of whom died in the ’14-18 War, one of the boys, Frederick, their name was Perrault, and... I’m forgetting why I’m telling you this now. Oh yes. It seems, they never got married...(laughs)...which is... And I often wondered really; he probably had a wife in, in Le Havre I should think, and did a runner across the sea. I think that probably happened quite a lot. My mother... My elder sister knows more about it than I do, but my mother used to tell me she could remember when she was small when they lived in a house when they had servants and things. But then, he, the story is that he was embezzled of all of his money from his brother, and then the whole family ended up in the workhouse, where they had their heads shaved, and, and my grandmother apparently went out and scrubbed office floors and gradually got them all out again. It’s...I think my mum was very small, she doesn’t have a huge memory of that, but I think that was, must have changed their lives, you know, dramatically really.

So, before she moved to Camberwell, where do you think...

They were born there, both of them, I’ve seen their... I can’t remember the address but they were both born in that area. So, how they met, I’m not really sure, I’ve seen pictures of their wedding and so on. Yes, not a happy couple. So... And, I’m, as I said, one of six. We’re all divorced, which I think is, is... You know, I’m a great believer in, what happens to you when you’re small does shape your life and your decisions. So, yes, we’re very much the working-class family.

And, where are you in...?

Oh, I’m number four. I’m the youngest son, and I have two younger sisters. And my...we were like two groups of three; my next eldest sister is nine years older than me, and then I’ve got a brother who’s eighteen months older than her, and another brother who’s two years older than the...so there’s one older brother, next brother, then my sister. And then, I don’t know what happened for nine years, but then I came along. (laughs) And then two younger sisters.

And what sort of things do they do?

What did they do? They were... My dad did all sorts. I can remember when I was little, he worked in a factory where they made toys, so, he worked on a lathe I think. I think he did any kind of job to, you know, just earn some money really.

And where was the factory?

That I don’t know, because we lived, until I was eleven we lived in Carshalton, where I was born, and Carshalton is, you know, next to Mitcham, and it’s very sort of, south London basically. And then, when I was eleven we moved to a place called Merstham, which is very near Redhill and Reigate, in the middle of nowhere, those awful council estates they built to offload people from London I think basically. Because when we were talking earlier before the tape about not feeling part of anything, that’s a bit of what I meant. I don’t really, not realising it, but we were sort of, not felt part of anything very really. So, that was quite extraordinary, because we... What happened then, it sounds like a long time ago, but people locally were kind of, some of them were very sort of country based, so we were a sort of, south London family, and I think again felt quite, not part of the whole thing. I remember going to school at that age with a very cockney accent, which everybody had, and then I went to a secondary modern school in the grammar stream where you’re supposed to do, it was the next best thing to going to a grammar school. And, just right from day one was in trouble, kind of, basically, one of those cockney kids who wasn’t going to back off to anybody, you know, I was always fighting, and, the first day I think I was up before the headmaster for three different kind of fracas sort of thing. And that was a lot of, I think just coming from London, you know, ‘You do you think you are?’ that kind of stuff.

What was the name of the school?

It was called Albury Manor, and it was in Merstham, which not many people have heard of. It’s literally about halfway between London and Brighton on the old Brighton road. I mean, you could drive through it and spit out the window, and you’d

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 4 gone past it. It was that kind of place. God knows why they moved there. The only thing I can imagine, you know, we had a bigger garden, and... I can’t, I can’t really think of why, you know. Because we, for someone of my age, I mean eleven, I had loads of friends, and local kids, and, that you just sort of left behind, which made it very difficult. Very difficult, that’s an over-exaggeration. So I can’t say that we enjoyed school, except that, fortunately for me, as I say, the problems I had on day one gave me a bit of a reputation of being, you know, a hard nut or whatever you want to call it. I was very good at football, which was actually what I really wanted to do. So I played football for the school, and, for the borough sometimes and things like that, which meant that you had some kind of status, especially with boys, you know, you can, if you can play sport you can get away with a lot of things. And then...

Sorry, who taught you football?

Oh I don’t know if anyone taught you. We didn’t have any tuition as such. But it was just something that, that I could do. You know, I could never understand other kids, when you played football with them, you kick the ball at them and they couldn’t...it would bounce all off them, and they couldn’t control it or whatever. It was something I could do. I don’t think there was any... I think some people can and some people can’t basically. We didn’t have, like now you’d have probably had tuition, you would have had coaching, which would have been wonderful, but that wasn’t available. We had very very good, which I wouldn’t have had staying in south, in Carshalton, we had massive playing fields, two or three football pitches and a cricket pitch, which I would never...and showers, you know. So that kind of thing was, was available. And, you know, forty boys in a class; it was a mixed school but we, it wasn’t until later that we, that we shared classes. I can’t remember what age at which girls were in the class.

What school did your brothers and sisters go to?

They, I think they went to the same school that I went to in Carshalton, which I can’t remember what that was called, to be honest with you, but it was very much a local state school, with, you had like, the junior school and the primary school on one side of a field, that was it, and the other side was the senior side where you had tarmac...

That was it, there was no facilities for sports or anything like that. So, in that way, moving was sort of good about that kind of thing. Sort of, educationally, I was one of those kids apparently who just failed their 11-plus. And then you had another opportunity to take a 13-plus, which I passed. And I have to say, there was one teacher which I had never had experience with before, a lovely lady, I think her name was Miss Posner, who did make me understand about English and language and...actually did a school play. You know, for someone like me to do a school play was, pff, no way, you know. But she, I did have...she was a wonderful teacher, but you know, one of those lovely old teachers who, she would be brought down to tears sometimes. Some of the boys were hideous basically, you know, none of us... And I think about it now, especially, I’m very glad both my daughters have been to university, I went through school thinking school was a chore, you know, reading was a chore, even reading books, it’s only in the last ten, fifteen years that I’ve really realised what a joy that is. You just...it’s just what everybody thought, you know, school was, boring. And I don’t think I did any kind of real academic work after passing my 13-plus. The grammar stream was a joke. I had left at fifteen, and I think one boy got about two GCSEs or something. And I just, for me school was just a chore. And I got through the whole thing playing football basically, or cricket for the school or hockey for the school, running the 100 yards for the school, that kind of thing. So whenever, ‘Where’s your homework Russell?’ ‘Um, oh Sir, we had a football match yesterday,’ you know, that kind...I just didn’t do anything basically. I’d make sure I’d come about halfway down the class, I didn’t get told off kind of thing. And, wheedled my way through it. And I didn’t...I couldn’t wait to leave school at fifteen.

And what was your parents’ attitude to your education?

I think, I think the kind of way... My mum was always pleased if my school report said, ‘And Leslie is a very well-mannered, nice boy,’ you know, that’s all. (laughs) And I think that generation, you were sent to school and they thought, that’s their only kind of, what’s the word, contribution to your education. And when I think back now, sort of, if you’ve got six kids and you haven’t got any money, too bloody right. You know, we always ate well, we never, none of us were ever hungry, but we didn’t have any clothes or... I can remember painting stripes down my football boots to make

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 6 them look like modern ones, you know, that kind of stuff. But it was just what, everyone else was the same, so you didn’t feel underprivileged or, I’m not angry with my parents or that kind of stuff, which some people are, aren’t they, ‘What were they doing?’ you know. I think they, that was the best they could do. I think the sad thing about those two was, they were so unhappy together, which is... When I think back now, that must, you know, that’s a nightmare isn’t it really. But, I think I was my mum’s favourite son, you know, and my elder sister, Marion, that’s the one who’s nine years older than me, had a lot to do with looking after me as the little one, which is what happened in those kind of working-class families. I remember reading a book a couple of years ago, Angela’s Ashes, have you read that? There’s a wonderful story in the book when, you know, Dad, their father, has mended their boots, which my father used to do for us as well, but he didn’t have any leather so they had rubber stuck on them. But my dad used to mend our boots in the shed, you know, they had a last or whatever it’s called, and... But that wasn’t particularly unusual, I mean everyone else was in the same situation really.

What sort of person was your father?

He wasn’t very educated at all. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was probably semi- illiterate, I’m not sure. Not articulate at all. I would say we had a very distant relationship. But I would imagine that was probably to do with their relationship really. And he just relied on my mother to... She was terribly outgoing and sociable, and he was very much the other way, so, you know, I...I don’t...we didn’t have a relationship really in that sense. I think maybe the... I think my elder three did. During the war we were evacuated to Shepshed in Shropshire on a farm, and there are some quite interesting... I’m in a pram, you know, war baby. But I think in those days, I think they were quite volatile with each other. But I think by the time I came along they were just apathetic with each other, so they, they were, there was no nonsense going on. But they used to argue a lot. One of them sometimes would leave home on a Sunday and that kind of thing, they’d be back in the evening, you know, that sort of, stuff that you get. (laughs) Which I think I’ve dealt with. Because it’s, you know, I was married for nineteen years and then the whole thing went wrong. And you know, I did sort of decide I wanted to know why that was, and why we were all, divorced, so I did go and have some counselling, which I found fascinating, and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 7 realised, I thought I’d done things really different to my brothers, just, but really I was sort of, affected the same way they were.

In what way?

I think we’re all, all of us are passionate about our children, and that’s probably to do with what happened at home when we were small. You know, for me getting divorced was like my biggest nightmare coming to reality. But all of us have made, bent over backwards to make sure our kids are OK. And I’m sure that’s to do with that, you know, when we were little. But none of us...the older three, Marion, that’s my other sister, we talk about it a bit. My two older brothers, they don’t want, they don’t go there, if you know what I mean, when I try and have those kind of conversations with them. And again, we don’t live in each other pockets in any way at all, we, we see each other rarely. When we do, it’s absolutely, like we haven’t been apart. But I do keep in contact a lot with my, with Marion, and my next youngest sister, Christine, who, when I was at home, by the time I was eleven, or twelve, all we elder three had got married and left home, so, although we came from six kids, it was really me and my two younger sisters. And, I think we had a mad uncle that came to live with us, which is my mum’s brother. And in a way I felt quite protective of them. And, also my mum was one of those people, if you upset her, it was like the end of the world, you know, she would emotionally blackmail you dramatically. I remember again being small when she, she wouldn’t speak to Marion for months, you know. ‘Tell your sister...’ to do this, do that, and that kind of stuff. And I think it made me a real diplomat in the way that I deal with situations. And certainly in my marriage, that was what I did, to make sure that everyone was happy and jolly and, you know, happy families, which is, shapes your character without you knowing it. I think Freud is right, you haven’t got a clue to start working out till you’re about forty, and all that stuff that happens to you when you’re, up until about seven is, I think absolutely correct. So, I hope I’m not making it sound a miserable childhood, it really wasn’t; it was just, you got on with that situation. And, as I say, I think the biggest thing that got me through school from eleven onwards was, was football, was, you know, and that’s what I really wanted to be. And then when I was about fifteen I injured my back, so that was the end of that. And by then I was then really interested in clothes, I’d be sent home from school for tapering my trousers. You know, we used to buy

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 8 jeans and then I’d undo all the seams on them and remake them. And then my mother would go mad because I’d break all her needles on the, you know, the treadle Singer sewing machine. And that certainly took over, you know, girls, smoking. And then leaving at fifteen. But I think, the reason I went into hairdressing was because of Marion, she was a hairdresser, and I thought... Even... And the other thing is, seemed to me, I could...I knew I couldn’t work in an office, that kind of situation, and I wanted to be somewhere where you could dress like you wanted to. So, that’s how I went into it really.

And, could you, before we talk more about that, could you describe the house you grew up in in Merstham?

In Merstham? Yes, it was a... You walked through a little front door, a gate, to maybe, ten, fifteen yards and then you’d be in the front door. They were those council houses that were, I don’t know what they were, like concrete slabs, with gaps in them that went sideways. And then you had a little kind of porch, then the pipes that came down, you know. That was... And then you walked pretty much straight into the living room, with a staircase in front of you. So there would a living room and a kitchen. And then, out the back we had like a, thirty-foot garden I guess, where my father would grow vegetables and stuff like that. And a shed, oh you had to have a shed. (laughs) And then upstairs were three small bedrooms with a bathroom. And kind of, they were so badly built, there used to be an expression, jerry-built, which I think was German, I’m not sure, but it...I didn’t quite know what that meant until later. But in the winter, you had no central heating and things like that, so in the winter, sometimes you woke up with ice inside the windows, which, you know, everybody did.

And what was your room like?

Well when I was very small, back, before we moved to Merstham, I would share a room with my two brothers. What was it like? Very basic, just a small bed. I think I had a chest of drawers in there. Yes, that’s about it I think. I mean my family, my...wouldn’t be into buying pictures; if you did, it would be, you know, not, not...not an arty picture, it would be... No one spoke about that kind of thing.

And, did you ever put things up on the walls later on?

No, I was never one of those who would sort of, you know, like collect pictures of pop stars or whatever, like, or, I never understand why anyone wants to get an autograph or, that kind of thing. We had, and down in the living room we had a gramophone, which was where you had 78s, you know. My next brother, Robin, the older one, not the older one, the second oldest one, was very much into sort of modern jazz, so I did hear that kind of music when I was small. I think music is a real, what’s the word? It dates history very well, doesn’t it, pop music particularly, for me. Yes.

And were your parents interested in music?

My mother’s favourite singer was Nat King Cole; my dad used to play a mouth organ, quite well actually I think, you know, and he did soppy party pieces where he’d pretend to bang the door into his face, you know, stopping it with your foot. My mum tried to play the piano, you know, but, do you remember the comedian Les Dawson where he’d miss a note? Well a bit like that. (laughs) Yes, but... So, music would be what you heard on the radio, Radio Luxembourg was a big thing. And then of course, there was later the big English explosion thing, the Beatles, I...and that’s very much my era. I grew up not liking people like Frank Sinatra, because that’s all you heard on the radio. You never heard, you know, anything else really, they were all crooners, like Johnny Ray and all that sort of stuff. So, it was just before... I think there was a huge gap in those days between the Sixties... If you were born, if you were born ten years younger, there was a huge gap, and a massive explosion of music and fashion as well. So, but it was a time. So, yes, I didn’t...the only music I heard was that kind of stuff that you heard on the radio.

Did your mother work?

She did all sorts of jobs too. And I...it was a bit of a battle between them I think, because she loved working, she liked meeting other people, being sociable. I can certainly remember when I was very small, I can just about remember ration books. But if you walked to the shops with my mum, you wouldn’t get more than twenty

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773A Page 10 yards without, she’s having to stop and have a long chat with someone. And when you’re kid and you’re thinking, you know... That would go on a lot. So, yes, she did all sorts of different kind of jobs, but really I think more, to earn a bit of money obviously, but also to interact with other people. She was incredibly sociable.

And did people come to the house?

My aunt and uncles were to come occasionally, but not very much, and I think, they certainly didn’t have people who came round to have a meal, or, well I don’t think anybody did. So, friends would come probably to see my mum, her friends, you know, knock on the door and have a cup of tea and a chat together, but...

And where would they have that?

Where would they?

Oh probably sit in the kitchen I should think. Or in the living room, you know.

And what were family meals like?

Oh, the usual. Sunday lunch was roast beef, you know, a joint of meat with vegetables, Yorkshire pudding, that sort of stuff. Monday was cold meat, which were the cuts from the joint on Sunday. It would be that kind of eating. My favourite food of the week used to be on a Friday. They weren’t Catholics, but for some reason my mother used to think you ought to eat fish on Friday, but she would buy fresh fish and make the batter, and it would be fish and chips basically, which was, very nice. I didn’t...I only once had school meals for a very short time, which I hated, so, I used to come home for lunch, and, you know, make... We had a latch-door key as well, you know, which everybody did. But she was there nearly all the time anyway.

Who would prepare the food?

Oh she would. I mean in a family like that, boys did nothing. The women did the washing-up, did the cooking. You didn’t do anything really. I remember when I first left home when I was about twenty, pff, not knowing, you know, anything. I learnt of course, but, you know, it just wasn’t the kind of thing.

So how did you learn?

Just by getting on with it, you know, sort of, thinking, well if I don’t go and get some shopping and cook something, I’m going to not eat something. And I, by then I was sort of earning some money and eating out. Because eating out when, in the background that I came from, was, that you didn’t do it, no one...to go to a restaurant, you know, would be quite scary. That didn’t happen till much later. And going into hairdressing, also meant I met a lot of people I would never have met, with much more money, from a different background. And without you realising it, you lose your cockney accent, because it isn’t...not because it isn’t cool, but because, just what you hear all day long. Yes, my, Marion and I sound very different to the rest of the family, not such cockneys.

So, when do you think you actually lost your cockney accent?

When I went to work, you know, I wouldn’t like, put an age on it, but... I mean my business partner, Keith, very much from the same sort of area, Bermondsey he came from, he was told as a junior not to say anything, because of being, sounding cockney. It doesn’t matter very much now, but it did then, you were supposed to be, much more posh. I think, again without making a conscious effort, I realised I had to, you know, not sound like that, and gradually you kind of lose it. Yes.

[End of F13773 Side A] [F13773 Side B]

Were there any, any objects in your youth that you became particularly attached to?

Objects? [pause] Well later would have been clothes, you know, but, just...yes, and also, to get a bicycle was a big thing. When I was thirteen I did a paper round, and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773B Page 12 the reason for doing the paper round was that I got paid every week, and I could buy myself a bicycle. And my eldest brother, because you have hire purchase agreement, HP, would...he sort of stood as guarantor, and then I would do my paper round and pay him back every week until it was paid off sort of thing. So to have a bike was to have, you know, freedom, sort of, because, you could get around everywhere, and I cycled everywhere. And one of the paper rounds I did, if you went outside the council estate, there were some very beautiful sort of, English country homes, you know, there was a place called Rocks[???] Lane, which was the longest paper round, but I used to quite enjoy doing it, because you, you’d be up really early in the morning, and cycle all the way along and... So you didn’t have so many papers to deliver, but you cycled a lot further. The one I didn’t like doing was on the council estate, which was, you did every other door, and that kind of stuff. You cycled ten yards, shoved them in, and so on. So the bike was a big thing. And then our possessions of that age would have been, you know, things like football boots, which were, when I think them now, really heavy leather things with leather studs, you know, so you’d have to repair them, put new studs on, and... So I’d look after those, but that would be about it. And, my football strip I guess. Because clothes-wise, all we would have is school uniform, and, well that was about it, you had school uniform.

And what was that like?

Green blazer, and grey flannel trousers. Or, there was another material called, worsted was it? Which would be, they were nicer. But those were the ones I used to get sent home for tapering. But, we didn’t have to wear a...yes we did...oh and a cap, which I was always being told off for not wearing. That lived in my pocket, in the blazer pocket.

So where did you get the uniform from?

That’s a good question. I would think, I think it was from Redhill, which would have been the biggest shopping area. I don’t know which sort of store it came from, but they, that’s where you had them from. And then you had to have one, so, somehow my parents must have afforded that anyway.

Can you remember how much you were paid for your paper round?

I can’t. I can remember what I earned I left school. I think it was, I think the paper round was ten shillings, I think. And that was six days a week. Yes.

And can you remember what newspapers you delivered to the, to the different areas?

Wow that’s interesting. I had no interest in newspapers or magazines. As I said, for me, reading was a core. No, I can’t. I would have imagined the Express and, you know, that kind of thing. But I don’t honestly know.

What paper did your parents read?

I don’t think they did. I know, I can’t remember seeing newspapers in the house. Oh that’s not true, because we had a coal fire, and we had papers that you, you know, you put over to draw the fire up. So they must have had some papers. I can’t...I’m sorry, I can’t remember that.

Were they interested in politics?

Oh no, not at all. My father always complained constantly about what everything cost, about how it was disgusting and all the rest of it. But no, I don’t think they...no. No, I don’t think so. I wouldn’t say that. I...I don’t even know if they voted, or, you know. It certainly wasn’t a conversation that went on in the house.

And what sort of conversations did go on in the house?

I think for my mother they’d be very parochial, about friends, you know. So-and-so’s son has been naughty again, or, you know, poor old Ethel down the road is not very well, and that kind of thing. And my father really didn’t say very much. So... And, yes, food, you know, what we were going to have to eat, that sort of thing. But it wasn’t a house of... The conversations that took place later would have been with my next youngest sister, and we would speak about lots of things, but I don’t think we had huge conversations, no, we didn’t.

Would they...what would they do for entertainment?

Not very much. I mean, neither of them were great drinkers at all. My mother used to smoke about ten cigarettes a week; my father used to have roll-ups, and would smoke, chain smoke sometimes. There was always a cigarette going on. And on a Sunday they would have, you know, my dad would have a couple of half pints of beer or something, and she would have maybe a, a gin and tonic or something. But that would probably be in the local pub more than anything. Wouldn’t say they drunk, they never drunk at home really, in that sense.

Did you go on holidays?

Oh no, never went on holidays. Holidays for me were... I can remember once going to Brighton for the day, and, once a year, but I think that was before I moved to Merstham, living in Carshalton, there would be a coach outing that took you to places like Clacton or, that sort of thing, for the day. No, we never, we never went on holidays. So holidays, school holidays would be playing sport, playing football. I had a lot of friends, you know, boy friends, guys, and we would play sport all day long. I mean, I would be out the whole time, not at, you know, not at home. Not because of...just that’s what we all did, you were out, especially when you’d got a bicycle.

And would you have visited each other’s houses?

Mostly you’d be knocking on their door, so you’d say, ‘Are you coming out?’ you know, we’re going to go and play, you’d play in the street, or in the local rec or, that kind of stuff. But not... No, I can remember... I can’t even remember... I mean I can’t remember birthday parties either, you know, when someone would have a birthday party, and kids would go round. It just wasn’t what we did. So, we’d be out playing.

What about Christmas, what happened at Christmas?

The usual working-class thing, you, you’d buy everyone a present. We were quite a big family in that sense, that, you know, they would, by then for me, there would be quite a lot of gran...her grandchildren, my parents’ grandchildren, and you’d really buy presents for the kids rather than for everyone. And Christmas Day would be the usual, turkey. Everyone would be asleep in the afternoon. (laughs) So you’d go out again. Yes, you were out really.

And who would be at the Christmas meal?

Oh, everybody, all my fam... Or... The family, not... Yes, my brothers and sisters. And when they got married, their partners. Oh you had to, you had to be there, otherwise, you would be really in trouble. (laughs) Your mother would definitely not speak to you for God knows how long. So, yes, just be the family, and their wives or husband or whatever. And that was it, yes.

And can you remember any of the presents that you got?

No, not really. I mean I, we...I’m not sure we’d got them really, as... We probably did, I’m not...I mean I’m making it sound awful, but, we weren’t, it wasn’t, they weren’t anything that you would remember, basically.

Can you remember any that you bought?

Not until much later, I mean, when I, when I was working, and earning money and stuff, then I would buy the kids quite nice presents. But... Yes, so in my environment, by the time I’d left school and was...well by the time I was eighteen I was kind of earning quite a good... It didn’t take me long to be doing hairdressing, I for some reason found it easy to do. So by the time I was eighteen, I was earning in those days I think quite a good salary. So at Christmas time I could buy all the kids presents and things. And I had a car, and, which, you know, was doing OK. But when we were little, the presents, I mean no one had any, there wasn’t any money I guess, so it wasn’t something you expected really.

Can you describe the sort of moment when you realised you would go to into hairdressing?

Having to... As I say, when I was thirteen and passed this 13-plus exam, and then, myself and another boy were offered a place at Redhill Technical College, but there was only one place, which again is, when I think about it now, I remember going there for an interview, walking in this room, and obviously when I think now must be, it was the whole school board was sitting there, about twelve people, and I had no forewarning of this situation, and I must have just jammed up I should think. But I had no interest in going there anyway. And I think that’s when I probably realised that I wasn’t going to do any academic schooling any more, and then, maybe I could play football. So, when I realised I couldn’t do that... There was a huge part of me that wanted to meet girls, and remember in my time, you didn’t really have girlfriends as such, you know. I think I must have had a very chauvinistic outlook on girls, you know, the idea was that you went, you got them into bed. And again, that changed dramatically working in a hairdressing environment, because most of them were women anyway. I think it was just a need to leave school, a place where you could wear, not...you know, a suit and a tie, you could wear other clothes. And I felt, well this can’t e bad. I wasn’t serious about it, really, it was only when I started working there after about a year that I kind of really did get into it much more seriously.

Yes, what was the place like where Marion worked?

She worked for the same company. They were a place...it was called Robert Creator of Hair Fashions. At one point they had sixteen different salons all, you know, Croydon, Streatham, those kind of places. And a very, lovely man called Leslie Green, who was a partner in the business. I was very lucky, he, his background would have been working in the West End, he kind of knew people like Vidal Sassoon and that kind of stuff, although he was older than them, but he knew, he had worked with people like them. So I had an extremely good training. When I left school you had to learn how to do finger waves...

What are they?

...put pin curls in. Yes, you know.

Could you explain what those are?

Do you remember the sort of Thirties hair-dos, where people had real sort of finger waves, and, you know?

On top of their head?

Yes, don’t you remember those things? They would be very old-fashioned then. It was considered to, that you understood how to control hair, and, and doing things like pin curls, but not using clips to hold them in, you had to use pins to secure them in a certain way. So I learnt that, even though it wasn’t the stuff I wanted to do, but you had to learn that. Which gave you a really strong foundation of doing hair.

Well, could you describe the pins that you had to...?

They were very fine little pins, with a little crinkle in them, and you put them in in a certain way. And then you used, you set the hair when it was wet with these finger waves in, and you combed them in a certain way using your fingers to do them. And then you put these pin curls in with them and you secured them. And then you would put a hairnet over the hair, sort of, ear muffs, and shove them under the dryer. It wasn’t something that anyone was having done particularly. I mean there were some very ancient clients who would come in that would have that kind of stuff. But it was something you had to learn to do. And it was, it was a very good way of teaching you, as I say, to control hair, and, you know, it was good technique to learn, mm.

But who taught you?

This guy called Leslie Green, who was the partner. And we would have school nights, sometimes I would go to, I had the opportunity to go to four different school nights a week, because I could go to other branches to... I didn’t always do four, but I could sometimes, I could certainly do two quite easily. And we worked five and a half days a week and we’d have a half day on a Wednesday. And we started at eight

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773B Page 18 o’clock in the morning till six o’clock at night, we rarely had a lunch. And, literally by the time I was about seventeen and a half I was doing, sometimes twenty clients a day. But I...I don’t mean...this sounds...because I actually found it kind of easy to do. But, the only opportunity you had to do the kind of work which later I wanted to do, much more, no hair setting at all, you know, that would be the beginning of the Vidal Sassoon era, you know, straight hair and very geometric haircuts, would be on a Saturday when I’d have younger people coming in that I could try and do that kind of thing on. And, later I realised that, if I wanted to do better in hairdressing, I’d have to leave there and try and get a job in the West End, which is not easy, you know; coming from the suburbs, you wouldn’t be...wouldn’t welcome you with open arms kind of thing.

Could you describe the salon at...?

Yes. It was... What I remember most about it is, I would get in there in the morning, and it was very much the time when everybody had a beehive, all the girls that worked there had a, had a beehive. So they’d be backcombing their hair, putting them into little beehive pleats at the back. The floor must have been linoleum because they all wore those very tiny pencil heels on their shoes, and there’d be little, it would be like this, little dents all over the place from their shoes. So, yes, lots of make-up, you know, heavy eye make-up, very cake face and red lipstick, that sort of stuff. And banks of hairdryers where people sat all day long. And then, not really...in those days I don’t think I had a very good eye for interiors, but I would look at them now and think, they were probably awful, you know, plastic chairs and, and not very nice really. And you would walk through the door to a reception, you know, then there’d be a little waiting area, then there would, the salon was in two halves as it were. But, and a certain area where you just did tinting or colour. Mm.

And where was the salon?

When I first left school... Well it was in Croydon, yes. And then, there was another one in Croydon, but it was, yes, basically. And, it was a...he...Robert Zackham his name was, did extremely well, I think he made loads of money. You know, sixteen hairdressing salons all round the south London, it’s quite a lot. And there must have

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773B Page 19 been, where I worked, good fifteen, twenty people that worked there. But as I say, I was very lucky really working with Leslie Green, who is a lovely man, and he, he...his technique was very good, cutting hair, and it was a very very good basic training, which I would...which, I doubt whether I would have got better anywhere I went really.

What do you mean that his technique was very good?

There were certain ways he... There are certain basic rules I’ve always believed that you have to have when you cut someone’s hair, particularly, and that technique that we learnt is still applicable today. A bit difficult for me to describe to you, but I, I often...a certain way you hold the hair, and the sectioning that you do. And even now sometimes when I’m walking past all sorts of hairdressers, famous ones, and I look through the window and think, pff, don’t reckon that technique, you know.

Could you try and explain it?

Well, it was called club cutting. So, before that happened, in the days of sort of Raymond, you know, Teasy-Weasy and that kind of thing, you used to cut hair, sometimes they used to cut it with a razor, which would make the ends very thin or thin the hair out, which would make it very easy to backcomb it and for those kind of, hair dos. If you wanted to cut someone’s hair and you want, you were interested in just how the hair fell by itself in the shape, without any rollers or perms or whatever, you, you had to think much more about how, where the weight in the haircut is, and club cutting meant literally like it sounds, you cut the end very straight. I think I would bore you if I get into really taking it on, but, it’s almost impossible to...

No, you must, yes, no.

I mean now... Now that, you know... The thing I teach for instance, all the staff that work at Smile, we taught them, we’ve never employed people from outside, they began like I did, as an apprentice, and we’ve trained them, and I teach them in a certain way that, this is hard to explain to you, but, you always take the...the partings before the haircut are very important, and they have to be in exactly the angle of the

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773B Page 20 shape of the hair cut. I don’t...I’d have to demonstrate, I think it would be very difficult to explain in words. And I still sort of teach in that way, even with, in the last few years these sort of, scruffy, Meg Ryan type haircut, still needs a basic shape. I think if hairdressing is an art, and I think, you know, the word ‘art’ gets banded around when it shouldn’t be, it’s nearest to a sculpture I think. And, a good haircut really is distributing the weight in the haircut, if that might, if that might, may or may not make sense to you. So you are taking the weight out, or you’re leaving it in, to get the shape that you want. And that was particularly relevant in my time to lose the kind of hairdo jobs, you know, where you backcomb the hair to make it look the shape, where you had to cut the hair so that it fell into that shape. It actually required a lot more skill than...or, sorry, a very different skill. And that was my time of... But, as I said earlier, the kind of basic technique that I got, was learnt as a kid, was really very... More than anything it taught you how to control hair.

So when you say it taught you how to control hair, that you...could you just sort of summarise again what that was?

Well when you began... The other thing that happened in my time was, you had to pay to be an apprentice, and which again I didn’t have the money for. I used to earn £1.10s a week, and it cost £50, so for a year I had to pay ten shillings back again for that. You...there were certain techniques they taught you. One was the finger waves and the pin curls I just described; then there would be how you put rollers in; and then it would be perms and highlights and those kind of things. But what you find when you try and teach people, they have no control over their hair, they can’t use their hands properly, they, they haven’t got the strength...no it’s not the strength, but they haven’t got the control. If you can’t comb the hair in the right way, you’re not going to achieve the end result. And that is something I still believe for most people, certainly teaching them, but that takes quite a long time. In my time you used to be an apprentice for three years, and then for two years you were an improver, and I think, I would still say, to be a complete hairdresser still takes five years. So, there was a method they taught you, which was very old-fashioned, I mean no one actually walks around with those finger waves in their any more, but it was a good way, you learnt how to use your hands properly and that’s what I mean by controlling hair. Later the haircutting thing is exactly the same, as far as control goes.

So who would you be doing these pin curls on?

You would have people who came in as models, we used to call them. They weren’t paying for their hair, but they’d come after work, six o’clock, seven o’clock, whenever it was, and you would... I mean say I did somebody’s hair who was quite young, what I’d do afterwards is take that out and wet their hair down a bit and make it look quite different when they left. But if... Yes, so they came in. You would cut their hair too, so, they would have a free hairdo basically.

So what sort of women came into the salon, would you say?

In those days, in those days you would have, be quite a lot of wealthy women who would live around Croydon and that area, if you’d go out to those more country areas, there are lots of huge houses. And they, you know, lots of people would have a perm, would have colour, and you’d be putting rollers in their hair and setting it. And as I said, on Saturday you had a chance to do, sort of more young people. You’d have some people who work locally as well who, coming in their lunch time, or, whatever. But, as far as sort of, the local trade or what... I mean the prices we charged them, we would be considered, it was considered an expensive salon. Not West End prices, but, for that area. So, they would be people who could afford it basically. Mm.

And looking back, was there any particular type of, of thing, haircut or hair style that was, apart from the beehive of the girls, that was, that was very popular?

Well, in the beginning... I’d left, I left there by the time I was twenty, so I was there for five years. The other thing I remember was, once a year there would be, we used to have a competition in between all of the salons, and then, because of Leslie Green, the man I mentioned, we would have people like Vidal Sassoon, who would come and judge these competitions. And which I won one year. And that was very much a bob haircut, a Sixties haircut. And that was very much my thing. I mean, the work I was doing at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, putting these rollers in, wasn’t what I wanted to do, but that’s what everybody did, and that’s how I built up my clientele at the time. But the haircuts I wanted to do were very much getting rid of all those hairdos and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/01 F13773B Page 22 getting into haircutting. And certainly at that time the leading inspiration would have been Vidal Sassoon, because... It wasn’t actually, it’s like all fashion, often if you look back in history, you know, in the Twenties, flapper girls had their cut in a bob. But it’s like everything, doing it at the right time is often the right thing. And technically he was extremely good at doing that. And that would have been my kind of inspiration in those days.

And where would you have seen his, his styles?

Where would I have seen them? Oh in magazines. I mean by then I was reading magazines. (laughs) And also, I think this is probably a good point for me to talk now about... My life changed quite dramatically in a way when I met Cathy McGowan, Cathy the person who ended up doing Ready Steady Go!. I think until that point, as I said to you, my attitude to girls was very chauvinistic, and, I never seemed to have a problem in finding them, but you know, that was what it would be. And then when I was about seventeen I met her. She was then working, she was trying to be a journalist working for Woman’s Own. I then had a real interest in fashion, because I could go and... You still couldn’t buy the clothes you wanted, but you knew what you wanted. You couldn’t... It’s not like now, you couldn’t go out and buy the right kind of jeans or the right kind of... And I had a great friend.....

[End of F13773 Side B] [F13774 Side A]

Yes, there was one guy I’ve known since I was fifteen who, Peter, who was I think different to the kids who went to my school, he went to a different school in Reigate. Peter and I, at seventeen would go out and buy old cars for like, £10 from a breaker’s yard. Because that was the other thing, you needed...living at Merstham, you...it was like the middle of nowhere, you needed to get out of there, we both had that same... Anyway, one year on holiday, when we were seventeen, which is when I met Cathy, and Peter met her sister Frankie, who are now married and have been for years and years. I think in a way it was probably, when I think of my own children now, that was probably my university days in a sense, that, a) I met someone like Cathy, who wasn’t, wouldn’t allow me to be a chauvinist pig, the way I treated women...

How did she do that?

Sorry?

How did she do that?

Oh I think I, you know, girls were like sex objects, which, I hadn’t really ever considered them as being friends or, so on. Cathy and Frankie then lived in Streatham. Cathy has a brother called John, we’re all still great friends. And we would sort of, sit up till one in the morning and talk about what our ambitions were. And, particularly Cathy and I had a huge interest in fashion. I mean I can remember when I did have a car, we used to drive up to like, Harvey Nichols and look in the window to see what their, I think it was called Nineteen or something, they had a range for younger people. And she working on the magazine as well. We, that was sort of... We shared an interest in fashion, apart from, she was probably the first woman I ever actually, or girl I actually really sort of fell in love with.

So can you...

So I think that changed me, because, I think it made me think, I need to go somewhere better than I am, which is not being derogatory to where I was working, but it, it was obvious... And Leslie Green more than anyone, the gentleman I mentioned, was always talking about these top hairdressers, which I found quite, gave me a goal to aim to. And then meeting Cathy as well. I think she was just different to other girls I’d ever met. She did know about fashion, she was trying to be a journalist, and, it sort of opening my mind a bit to... And, as I say, her brother John and Frankie and Peter and I would talk about what we all wanted to do, our ambitions, which... I think I’d never done that with anyone before, other than playing football or going to school, it was sort of, you know, the first that had really happened to me, and made me think, I want to do much better than I’ve been doing.

How did you actually meet Peter and Cathy?

Peter lived locally to me. I can’t remember how we met, but it was...you know. Oh, I know. We met going to sort of local jazz schools, club, sorry, and that meant, you know, one particular one we used to go to where, you know, which was full of Reigate art school students, which is where the best looking girls used to be, when we were about fifteen I guess. And, sort of, through that. And then there was a whole group of us, we would go out every Saturday evening, again very locally. There were probably about two places to go, you know, one was in Purley I remember, and, and somewhere else, but it would be, traditional jazz, bebop, that kind of thing, which is what you would hear being played. But we went there to meet the girls of course. (laughs)

And what was Peter’s background?

Peter, different. His family lived locally in a more country house. Not loads of money, but Peter went to a good school, John Fisher Catholic school, where they did have a much better education than a secondary modern school. Not lots of money at all. But, I suppose you would say he was much more middle class than I was. But you know, we...again, we would share this interest in fashion, and what clothes you should wear. We were doing the usual things, rebelling against, you know, what was around us. And we, Peter was one of the, he is now a very well known sound engineer on films, and Peter was just one of those guys who could fix anything. We would buy these cars for £10 from breaker’s yards, and I would act as his mate basically, passing him spanners, but we’d fixed them up and get them roadworthy. And that would give us wheels to get, you know, so you could drive around. They were, I’m talking about cars, one I remember the most was a Morris 8, 1937, which looked like a pram on wheels, but they were wonderful old cars, you know, and we learnt to drive on them, and, that kind of thing. So, and that was our escape.

So what’s his surname?

Peter Glossop.

And, can you remember the occasion when you met Cathy?

We were on holiday, at Butlin’s holiday camp. And we’d gone there again for the same reason. (laughs) And I think it was probably, looking back, the first time they were allowed to go away from their home, you know. Cathy’s family are very much Irish family, McGowan, you know, and she was there with Frankie, and I think two other friends. And that’s where I met her. And then we started going out, and... I would spend a lot of time at her family home, which again, which was something I never did at home, which we talked about earlier, where... And we were all such a similar age, and we would... I think as I say, the first time I’d met people, or I knew Peter, and we already had, wanted to do better than we were, but, who had good ideas, and, you know, it was, I found interesting to talk to. And as I say, I think really that was my first experience with a, with a girlfriend, of having that relationship.

Yes, what was her home like?

She, again, a bit more like Peter’s, much more middle class. But a terraced, three- bedroom little house with a tiny garden. Her mother and father had split up a long time ago, so mum, very much the dominant Catholic mum. But they were very much a unit, which I think also attracted me, because my background wasn’t like that. They really were brothers and sisters, and spent a lot of time together, talking all the time, you know, about all sorts of things, which I hadn’t really experienced at home. So I think that was interesting for me as well without knowing it at the time.

So how did her mother respond to you?

She did tell me a lot later, when she first met the two of us, she thought that I was a tearaway, and that Peter was a very nice boy. And then later she changed her mind. (laughs) Yes, I think she thought I was, here’s this sort of, cockney hooligan. Which I wasn’t, but, anyway, there we go.

How did you and Peter find out about the kinds of clothes that you wanted to wear?

[pause] How did we find out? It was just, well, it was street fashion, so it wasn’t coming from magazines and things. I mean I can remember the time, you wanted to buy Levi jeans, they used to be extremely thick material, if you took them off, they

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/02 F13774A Page 26 almost stood up by themselves. They’re the ones that you, you sat in the bath with them so they shrank to the correct size. They were quite hard to get hold of. But then they were always, even those sometimes I used to try and alter, if they weren’t quite the right shape. And at that time we used to wear things like a polo-neck jumper, and then, like a blouson basically, like a, what do you...a bomber jacket. And that was kind of the look that, certainly when we were about sixteen, seventeen.

And what would the jacket be made of?

It would be, one I remember particularly, what would it be? It was rather a shiny material, not quite...you know, polished cotton I suppose. And you wore the jumper underneath.

And where would you have bought your clothes?

There were, there were kind of... If you wanted to buy jeans, you tried to buy them, I can’t remember what they were called now, but they sold, you know, like working men’s clothes, you know, because that’s what Levi’s were basically. So you bought some of them from there. I can remember buying one or two things from brochures, which, not very much, but you might find the odd thing, well that’s all right, I’m.. And you could pay for it like that as well. And then later when I had ore money, then I bought things from different places. There used to be a place I used to have shoes made in Battersea called Stan’s, that made winkle pickers. With my bow legs, I must have looked wonderful in winkle pickers. But, yes later that was different.

How did you find out about Stan’s?

I think just from other people, you know, who, ‘Wow, they’re nice shoes, where did you get those?’ And, it was very, it really was very difficult to buy things in...you had to look in shops to find them, where, you know, because they weren’t available really, most things weren’t.

Can you describe your winkle pickers?

They were black. You know, lace-ups, with long pointed toes, which, mostly what you did after a while was put, stuff paper in them to stop them turning upwards, because they would turn up, like, you know, Turkish slippers or something. (laughs) Yes.

And what sort of sole did they have?

Oh they were leather, leather soles. Yes. And this bloke, Stan, used to make them, I can’t even remember, it was a tiny little place in Battersea somewhere. I can’t remember what it was, or what, it’s just, [inaudible] like a boot maker’s, you know. That was, that was probably the only thing I really got made, because everything cost too much. Before that, no around that time as well, we did use to have suits made, but that would be from a place like Burton’s, and they would make them to measure. So you could go in there, and again you could pay for it with a hire purchase agreement, and then they would make what you told them to make. So you weren’t buying anything off a peg, you said, ‘And I want the trousers like that, and three buttons,’ or whatever it was, and you could get those made. So that, that certainly was a big part of... You’d have a suit that was quite smart, for various reasons.

Can you remember a suit that you ordered from Burton’s at all?

[pause] I remember more what I did later buying suits. It was... They weren’t wonderful material, they were OK. I can remember having a Prince of Wales check suit made. I can remember mohair, that was quite sort of, I think it was about...I get very mixed up with the time, but it would have been about that time, when we were seventeen, eighteen. Straight-leg trousers, which were tapered – not tapered, but narrow. Fairly short, boxy jackets, so, I think they were called bum-freezers. And they would be square looking with no pleats. And, you could sometimes have covered buttons, you know, in the same fabric as the suit. And you’d, I’d wear a button-down collar shirt with thinnish ties, not, not skinny ones but, they wouldn’t be great fat things, they’d be narrow.

And what material, colour would they be?

I’ve nearly always worn black or blue, you know. They would be one or the other probably. And as I say, you had one of those, or maybe two of those, which you paid for as you were earning your money.

But where did you actually go to do your shopping, was it in central London?

That would have been in Redhill then. I’m talking about before, you know, when I left school, yes, it would have been in Redhill. And you’d go there and get your suit made, and then you’d go for a fitting, and then you’d go back again, maybe two fittings. So at least you could get stuff, that would be, that would be about the only way... As far as I knew there was nowhere you could go out and buy a suit, or clothes or a pair of trousers that were going to fit you how you wanted them. Other than the Levi’s, but Levi’s even then as I said to you, I used to sometimes alter those a well by undoing all the seams and then re-making them.

And what would you wear to the salon?

I’d wear one of the suits, yes. And, [inaudible] to wear the jacket all the time, but I’d wear a shirt and a tie, and the trousers that were made from the tailor. But they were, you could never get...the trousers would be the right size, but, you couldn’t buy, you couldn’t go out and buy a really nice button-down collar shirt that fitted you as it should, it was still very difficult even then. And it was still difficult even in the Sixties when I finally went to work at Leonard’s. Mm.

Because what were the, the female hairdressers at the salon wearing?

Well, for, as well for, for a long time when I was there, you’d wear an overall too. So, the girls had like, you know, horrible nylon overalls, and the blokes, you’d wear a nylon overall jacket. You wore one or the other. But if I could, I’d take that off. (laughs) Because that wasn’t cool at all.

How would the clients treat you when you were training?

When I was training? You’d be very much the junior, you know, you’d have to be very polite. Yes, and you’d stand there and pass pins to the...whilst Leslie Green would be putting rollers in their hair. And you’d go and get anything that was needed for the salon, you know, locally. I think they had tea and coffee, I can’t remember, but you might have to make that too.

What sort of thing...sorry, sorry.

Kept the floor clean, swept up all day long. And you shampooed, and... And also, those were the days when older ladies would have blue rinses, so you, as a junior, you would mix up this in a jar if you like, with little, a dropper, and you’d put a certain amount of colours in, and then you’d put that on their hair at the back wash room when it was wet and then it had to come out the right colour. Generally keeping the place clean, and shampooing all day long.

Could you describe what the blue rinse was actually made of?

You still see ladies now, don’t you, grey hair and blue rinses, but not very many, thank God. At that time it was quite a lot. It was just an ink basically, that you mixed, so, you had literally like a, a file with a dropper on top, which had all this colour inside it. And which must basically have been ink I would have thought. And you, you mixed that up, a certain amount of drops in a basin or whatever, and then you tried to put it on the hair evenly with a little brush, and then you combed it through to make sure that it went to the ends. Only something that lasted until it was washed again. I’ve no idea why people wanted blue hair, when you think about it now, or pink hair even. It must have been hideous wasn’t it, I can’t... It was really something I just did as a kid, but as I say, I absolutely no interest in. Because already, you know, it was so old-fashioned, and I was trying to do the other kind of thing, like different haircuts and so on.

Because what other products would have been sort of on a hairdresser’s...?

On the trolley or whatever? Yes, I mean you would have, lots of people as they do now have their hair tinted, so you’d be using, you know, tints all day long, which

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/02 F13774A Page 30 were mixed up with peroxide. Perms used to smell really ammonia, powerfully ammonia, you know. So you’d have, loads of people would have perms. So... In fact there’s a product out now that L’Oréal have brought out which is a straightener, and which smells almost exactly like those perm... The minute we got it, I felt, wow, it smells just like when I was a kid. The shop would smell of perm lotion, and... And at Christmas time, people used to buy these things which were called frictions, which were perfumes, so you’d put the hair on, put it on the hair after they were shampooed, which stank of horrible things like lily of the valley and... You went home, I can remember going home, sitting on the bus, stinking like a ruddy perfume shop, which was... That only happened, God knows how that tradition started, but at Christmas time, for some reason, when we would have this, smelling of this awful stuff in their hair. And we were very much encouraged to sell them, you know, because it was obviously quite a money-spinner for them.

So, because who, who would have been the, the sort of big manufacturers of, of hair products?

Products. I certainly remember Schwarzkopf, which is still around now. I can’t remember Wella, because, they’ve been going forever. And... But L’Oréal was certainly going, they were, you know, they’re still massive now. They would be the main products that you’d use. And we’d have this awful shampoo stuff, which was, it used to come in great big canisters, you know. I don’t think people in those days do, well certainly like Smile does, really good products; I think they were... I don’t think anyone knew about those really at the time, they were... Your hands would be raw, you know, from using these bloody things all the time. You get that anyway from your hands being wet all day long, even now, but you’d have terrible red cracks from using this stuff. I don’t think they spent lots of money on that kind of products.

And where did these products come from?

Well as I mentioned, the colours from L’Oréal and Schwarzkopf. The shampoos, I’m not sure. I mean, I don’t think it’s something I would have been aware of at that age, you know, just what we used in the shop, so, you’d have a shampoo for greasy hair, one for dry hair, and one for normal hair kind of thing. And they were very

And what were the special... Well, I suppose were there specialist basins for hair washing?

Just still very much like they are now. It was, probably quite recent then that you, you put your head back to have your hair washed. So it was still like then. And some of them you stood behind to shampoo the hair, but they’re really not very different to what you see now. I think barbers, which I never knew much about, because I didn’t really go to those, because my sister used to cut my hair when I was small, would, you would lean your head forward over a great big basin and have your head shampooed with your head forward, you know. No, they were backwashes like you see now.

What sort of person was Leslie Green?

A very gregarious, little guy. Very Jewish, from the East End of London. Because I think, at that time hairdressing was predominantly Jewish, I think most people, you know, like Vidal Sassoon and all those people who came from the East End of London, I don’t know why, but that was what they did. Very, absolutely charming, really, never stopped talking, bouncing with energy. And, a very nice man, yes, I mean... I remember him for instance, when I wanted to open a bank account, when I was earning some money, actually, you know, sorting it out for me and things like, he’d be very nice in that way. I mean one of the, the other things that finally prompted me to leave was, when I was about twenty, they offered me a partnership in one of the branches, which was not unusual, they did it to other people as well they obviously thought were worth... They must have been doing a deal where, I think you could have earned ten per cent of the profits and that kind of thing, where you would run the shop and you would be the manager, and you would make your career that way. And I think...I...by then I really was thinking, I’ve got to move up to town, you know, I’ve got to get a job, which took me a long time.

Where was the salon that they wanted you to be a partner in?

It was, it wasn’t in Croydon, but it was one, it was local to that. I think it was somewhere like West Wickham or something, you know. Which again I thought, I’m not doing this, I can’t go there. Yes.

Would...

But he was a lovely man, he was very nice to me. And he was enthusiastic, and he was, he was...I was lucky that I went... I could have gone to some awful tacky local hairdresser, I wouldn’t have known the difference, and not had any kind of training like that, so I was lucky in that sense. And I’m very grateful to him, I still occasionally...occasionally he pops in to see me, but I haven’t seen him for a while, but... He always comes when I’m really busy, and I never... I’d like to actually sit down and talk to him. But, it doesn’t happen much any more. Like all of us in life, you wander off and you don’t see all your old friends, do you?

And what would he wear when he was working?

What would he wear? Because he was the boss, he would wear a suit and tie, you know, which he would also have made by...you know, somewhere much nicer by then. (laughs) He’d have...I think he had a tailor in, you know, he’d go up to town, Savile Row or somewhere.

Were you two the only men in that particular salon?

Oh no no no no, there were lots. But, I mean certainly when I left school, there were some people I wouldn’t tell that I was learning hairdressing, because they’d definitely immediately think I was gay. Not the word that we used to use then, but you were queer, you know. So it wasn’t... And... But in the place I worked, there wasn’t actually any gay men, which is surprising. When I went to work at Leonard’s, there were lots. Because it was a profession you could go in and be a gay person and you wouldn’t be frowned upon, you wouldn’t be treated badly.

So when do you think you found out about, about homosexuality?

I mean, we all knew about it, but the first experience I had, I remember, was when I was about eighteen. Because living where I did... No maybe even even younger, because I didn’t have a car. So, probably sixteen. We used to thumb lifts everywhere, you know, like, if I’d been to see Cathy in Streatham, Peter and I would try and get a, thumb a lift home from Streatham all the way down to Merstham, down the old Brighton road. And, I was on my own one evening, and somebody gave me a lift, and did that thing of putting their hand on your knee and all that kind of thing. I was sort of horrified, I mean you would be at that age. But I don’t think I really sort of mixed with gay people until I went to Leonard’s in, working in hairdressing in the West End.

So what happened when you got the lift, how...you know, how did you...?

Oh, you know, was immediately horrified, you know, didn’t know whether to lash out or whatever. I mean it was very close to where he was going to drop me off. And, I can’t remember what he said, but he was saying, would I like to go somewhere? And I said, ‘Are you kidding?’ you know, I think I used very bad language, and just jumped out the car and did a runner, you know. But, the only other time I can remember homosexuality, back at school when we had a history teacher, who was always trying to encourage you to go and help him do his garden, his gardening on the Sunday, but we...I can’t remember what we called him, but we all knew what he was up to, so... But that, one was...I was certainly never molested or... The actual physical thing was only that time.

Did your...well, who...did your parents, your mother I suppose, talk to you at all about sex?

No. Never, never. We used... You learnt that from your friends and... Which is probably why the stupid hetero...you know, sorry, horrible attitude to women. I... I absolutely adore women, which I think I always have done, but I did...I thought that they were sex objects basically. We never...that was all you...you know, everybody else I’m sure was the same from my kind of background. No, it was a subject never spoken about.

Even with your sisters?

No. Not at all. Oh a long time later before that happened I think, you know, much much later.

[emergency services siren]

How would your sister treat you when you were working together at the salon?

We didn’t work together at the same place. She worked at one of the other branches. And in fact, I can’t remember the timing, but, within a short time she left hairdressing altogether. She actually married a hairdresser, who also worked at one of the other places. So I didn’t, my...she didn’t teach me anything. But I could, certainly could have spoken to her if I had a problem and say, ‘Marion, you know, this one’s giving me a hard time.’ But I can’t remember doing that, it was very much, she worked somewhere else, and I worked in a different place, but for the same company. And I think after three or four years, or maybe sooner than that, she gave it up anyway, and stopped doing it.

Would you have done your younger sisters’ hair?

I used to do my mother’s hair, perm it, which I hated doing. Or, or I’d try and persuade Marion to do it, ‘Can you perm Mum’s hair?’ Because she’d have one of those awful, perms. She had really fine baby hair, you know. Did I cut my sisters’ hair? If...if I did, I think they would have come probably on a school evening. But it wasn’t something I did at home. But I didn’t have much time at home, I mean if you’re working six days a week, you know, I wasn’t there very much.

[End of F13774 Side A] [F13374 Side B]

And what was your own hair like then?

My own hair, and I certainly used to cut friends’ hair, would have been what we used to call a mod’s haircut, which would have been quite short, slight parting maybe but not a real one, and it would be cut the same length all over. And I was very popular amongst friends, because, this was, the big thing was already happening in men’s hairdressing. There was a time in the Fifties when I remember my brother, my older brother, my next eldest brother, Robin, would have his hair cut in a teddy boy hairstyle in Morden, which is near Carshalton where we were, and I can remember looking, watching him through the window having his hair blow-dried in Tony Curtis style, that kind of stuff. But in my generation, by the time I was sixteen, we were what was considered ‘mods’, sixteen, seventeen, it’s always hard to remember exactly the age. But, you would have a very short haircut, cut the same length all over. And it was very hard to get it done well in the barber’s, so I used to do lots of my friends’ hair. Because I had already a technique of how to cut women’s hair, which was much more a technique you needed.

And who did your hair?

My sister. So, that’s what I said to you, when I stopped going, I can’t remember the age I stopped going to the barber’s, but it really was a short back and sides, done with clippers, it was hideous. You’d go in and say, ‘Please don’t cut very much off,’ and he’d, yow! off the back, clippers are going. And you wouldn’t go...you’d go back as seldom as possible. But that stopped for me when I was quite young, because Marion would cut my hair. So I was lucky.

And, and what would you have used, what sort of shampoo would you have used?

On my own hair? Oh I would have used whatever was being used in the salon. I don’t, I...there wasn’t a huge consideration like there is now, that products, yes, what products you used. Most conditioners were just wax-based to make your hair look smooth. Certainly wouldn’t have used a conditioner, not with short hair. You washed it a lot, you know, if I was going out I’d wash my hair, on a date or something, you know. It had got to be clean hair. (laughs) Not, no products, no sort of, things like Brylcreem and all that were, really way out, you know, you wouldn’t go near any of that stuff.

How did you learn then about hair, you know, qualities of hair and, where did that come in?

That was part of the training too, you know, dry hair, greasy hair, you know. If it was greasy hair, you use a shampoo for greasy hair. How hair was made up, what, what it actually did to the hair when you permed it, and so on, that kind of stuff you’d learn.

But how would you learn?

Oh, through your training. The school evenings that I mentioned before.

Well could you sort of describe a typical evening at one of the school evenings?

The training evening? A typical evening would be... Well when, the competition thing I mentioned to you, I would have this same model in, probably every week, and I’d be really looking after her hair and trying to get it into the best shape I could, ready for this competition. So, she would come in, I might just...I think we, we used rollers those days, even though you were, the end result would be very straight hair, you still actually... I think the technique I used then would be to have dried the hair nearly dry, and then put rollers in, so she’d be under the dryer. And then I’d use a brush, and, I think hairdryer, hand-held hairdryer, to straighten the hair and make it look that shiny, straight hair.

And what were the rollers like?

You’d try and use huge...they looked like chicken wire, which were covered in sponge, if the hair was quite long, because what you were trying to do is make their hair have some lift in it, but at the same time be straight. So, and you’d...they’d sit under the dryer with those.

And what, what were the hand-held hair dryers like, who manufactured those?

They were, as I remember they were very silver, they weren’t very good, they over- heated a lot. And they had a, you still had a nozzle on them. But you had to be very careful not to, not burn someone’s hair, but you, certainly make someone jump. They are much better now. But at that time you...they were metal, I can’t remember who made those, but they, they were chrome metal. They were OK, but very heavy and not, not at all what we’d use now.

And when you say that you would sort of, take care of the hair, what sort of...?

When I say what?

You said you would take care of your model’s hair.

Well, you’d be doing this...for that competition; but before that, you’d have, just people who would ring up and say, ‘Can I have my hair done on a school night, on your practice night?’ So they would come in, and then under the tuition of one of the senior stylists or, sometimes Leslie Green as well, you’d discuss with them what you’re going to do with it, and then you’d cut the hair, usually you would set it and put rollers in it, and you’d comb it out, backcomb it or whatever you were doing. And that would be your model for that night. But for the competition thing, would be, you were looking for someone whose hair you could do in the way that you wanted to, which was... So that was very different. And that was the beginning of me trying to do straighter haircuts with no rollers, or...or, sorry, not looking set. All hairdos before that were really set-looking, you know, the beehive was all backcombing, before that was the Teasy-Weasy thing, which, you’ve probably heard of Raymond, Teasy- Weasy, years ago, before your time.

But, also for, for future generations, could you explain...

What?

...about Teasy-Weasy and Raymond.

He was the most famous hairdresser before Vidal Sassoon. And he would be another West End hairdresser. He was called Teasy-Weasy because he was would do these short backcombed hairdos, very much styled hair. And there’d be little tendrils coming onto the forehead, short, quite high, backcombed things, short into the nape of the neck. And hair dos, they were very much backcombed and styled in that way. And then there was this massive changeover to, which you know about I’m sure in the Sixties, this sort of, straight hair. You didn’t, the whole point was, just how the hair fell by itself, and that needed a completely different kind of technique of doing it. And because of my age and my generation, that was going when I was a kid, you didn’t want...you... The same for men, as I said, having the short sort of mod haircuts was very...you didn’t have a side parting any more and all combed over, or a short back and sides, or, certainly you didn’t have, wore Brylcreem and have a Tony Curtis or whatever. So it was that sort of time, changed over.

And when you had your training evenings, what sort of things would the trainer sort of comment on in terms of what you’d done?

OK, so, in the beginning, well I mentioned where you’d have to do these finger waves, and that... So many people couldn’t do them, I can’t tell you, it was like... But for some reason I found it very simple, to me it just made sense, and I...although you would have to do them when the hair was wet, and you’d put a sort of, a setting lotion on them before you did it, and then you’d comb this hair all into these finger waves all over the head, they would come and check it, and say to you, ‘Now that’s wrong, that’s wrong,’ or ‘This is right, that’s right, that’s OK.’ And then, following on from that, you’d do these pin curls that I mentioned, which had to be secured with pins, as opposed to those silver clips, I don’t know if you remember those. That was, that, he used silver clips. He used to mark the hair, and that was considered that that wasn’t the way to do it, and which was quite right. Then you’d...another evening you’d be doing a set with rollers, and they had to be put in in exactly the right way, so that he actual, you got the lift in exactly the right place, and the curl in exactly the right place.

And where would that be?

Well, depending on the hairstyles. Many... (laughs) But they have to, they had to be done in exactly the right way. And that’s what I meant earlier by saying, all of that stuff taught you how to have very good control with your hands, and you, you got control of the hair. Again, not particularly what you wanted to do, but that was what you had to learn. Then, another evening you might be doing, learning how to do a head of highlights, using silver foil or cotton wool sometimes in those days. You’d have to do a perm, and certainly when you did a perm, talking about hair-setting, the rollers had to be exactly right. And those perms, they were very severe, I mean if you didn’t do them right, they were...you secured the roller into the, into its roof if you like after you’d wound it down, with a thick band which was like, elastic. Now if you hadn’t put those rollers in correctly, that would mark the hair, you’d have literally like a ridge in the hair. And if it was bad, very badly done, it would actually break the hair off, so you could have...yes, exactly. Your shocking horror face is correct. It was...you had...they had to be done really, absolutely right. And, after you’d permed the hair, after you’d, sorry, put the rollers in, and you’d, you put the lotion on first which changes the structure of the hair, then you put these rollers in to perm, to put the curl back in, was to neutralise them, which is another lotion. And that had to be done extremely carefully as well and left on a certain time. So, I’d learn to do that one evening. And I learnt how to tint people’s hair, and what colours to use. Unfort...well not, fortunately or unfortunately, when I went to work at Leonard’s later, you...things changed then, you either specialised in being a haircutter or a colourist; you didn’t do both. But I did actually learn how to do both. I’ve forgotten it all now, but I did actually learn. (laughs) So... And I would do loads of clients’ perms and, stuff.

And, was colouring popular?

Oh yes, I think it always has been, and I think it always will. People still don’t like grey hair, not everybody anyway. Some people look wonderful with their grey hair, but it wouldn’t be... You did get the odd person that I mentioned who would have blue rinses, and they would have very grey hair, but mostly people would be tinting their hair to hide the grey. And it would be, well, mostly it would be obvious shades of blond, you know, gold blond, pretty basic, not really... That also changed so dramatically in the Sixties, about how you use colour. Which... Because you needed

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/02 F13774B Page 40 a different effect. Most of the hairdos I’ve described, particularly like the Teasy- Weasy ones, the more you processed the hair, permed it, coloured it or whatever, it actually made it very dry and brittle, but it made it easy for you to style the hair by putting backcombing in, it gave it the volume it needed. Basically you screwed up the hair condition dramatically.

And how...

And again, that for my time was, the Sixties thing changed all that, you didn’t want to do that any more, bugger people’s hair up and make it look... It looked like a wig mostly, most of those hairdos look like wigs. If you look back at those Fifties hairdos, they’re, pretty horrid. I know we all react to our time, but, it, it really was when I think back now, you were really treating hair very badly.

How would the trainer explain what he or she wanted you to do?

Well there was a set method of learning, and I’ve given you a rough basic idea, but you... The first thing would have been these finger waves and pin curls. Then when they were satisfied you could do those to correct standard, you would then start doing roller hair sets.

But if they...

Along the way... Sorry.

Sorry. Did they use pictures and cards, or...?

Yes, there were often black and white charcoal type drawing, photographs of different shapes and things. And hairstyles had different names. I can’t remember them all now.

Can you remember any of them?

Well there was one that so many women used to have, when I was, say, seventeen, and they’d be in their forties, which would be... I don’t know if you remember how Mrs Thatcher used to wear her hair, with this sort of, things like that. I can’t remember what it’s called. But the hair went back.

Can you describe it?

And it then dropped onto the forehead in a wave. It was short at the sides and cut in at the back. But to achieve that effect, very much a roller hair set. And usually, the person would have a perm as well, which would hold the set, and that was the idea. Although I, thinking back now, I think it held the set more because you made the hair so dry and brittle, you know, you had that kind of volume in it. That would be very popular. Then there would be a little bit later a hairstyle that looked a bit like a chrysanthemum, short, and that would be, probably a hangover from Raymond, Teasy-Weasy, these, you know, little tendrils coming onto your face, and that was all backcombing and lacquering the hair to make sure it stayed. But they looked like hats, I mean they look like wigs, mostly. And, again, sorry I keep saying the same thing, but for me, the minute I started really getting into fashion, which is when I, after I’d started hairdressing, and, we started to talk about Cathy, was, you wanted to get rid of that whole plastic, set look. And it also represented a certain kind of way of thinking, which I didn’t realise at the time, but it was very establishment, you know, to have straight hair and long fringe that almost went in your eyes, would be, you know... That’s awful, you shouldn’t look like that. So, you know, I was doing it, not knowing much else really, except when I think about it now I didn’t like it then either, but I could do it, I found it not difficult to do. That was my training.

And how would the, how would women explain what they wanted when they came into the salon?

Pretty much as they do now, by talking about it. Yes, one of the great skills that I learnt early on, and I didn’t realise I had, and one of the things I now teach when I’m training one of our staff, is to... There’s a rule at Smile, you never cut anybody’s hair without sitting them down... I don’t think we did that in the early days; people would sit down with wet hair and tell you what they wanted you to do with it. You sit them

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/02 F13774B Page 42 down, and you’d spend a long time talking to them. And if you said, to someone’s hair, ‘I want to cut it to just past your ear’ or something, what I teach them to do if their hair is longer, is to actually shape the hair that they’ve got, and show them in the mirror, ‘I’m going to cut it to this length,’ you know. ‘It’s going to look like this.’ And you can use your hands to mould shape, so they’ve got some idea what they look like. But I suppose, going back to the question you asked me, there would be very much set styles. They’d say, ‘I want a...’ and I can’t remember their names, ‘I want a chrysanthemum haircut’ for want of a better word. And I’d know exactly what that means, and they would. The odd person might have a picture from a magazine. The odd person might point to one of these things on the wall that was illustrating those drawings I’ve explained. There would be some awful photographs, you know, of hairstyles, which they might point to and say, ‘I want it to look like that.’ But, the stuff that I wanted to do, there wasn’t very many photographs really. Vidal Sassoon changed that quite a lot I think, y ou know, he was the one who was doing that at the time.

And the photographs of hairstyles that were on the wall...

The drawings.

The... They were all drawings, were they?

Yes, they were... There were some photographs, sorry, but the ones that were, certainly for the training type ones, they were drawings. Which, you see another thing that always amazed me at the time is, some people will try to learn how to do it, but wouldn’t know how long or short to cut their hair. And I can always remember thinking, looking at these drawings, thinking, well if I comb that hair dead straight up, you know, there wasn’t any curl in it at all, it would be that length, I mean it was logical to me. But, some people took ages to understand those kind of things. And I, just by chance I was quite, I suppose seventeen, I was doing it. I didn’t even finish the three-year thing.

When women brought in photographs of hairstyles that they wanted...

Mm.

...were they of any sort of, particular women, you know, any particular sort of film stars or whatever, royalties, or...? Can you remember...

I don’t remember, again until I went to Leonard’s in the Sixties, of people saying, ‘I want to look like,’ some famous actress or whatever. They probably did. But I think that it was more... It was a real look for most women, you know, of a certain kind, of a certain age, they pretty much looked the same. So, in a way, and because, at that age, at seventeen/eighteen, I don’t think I knew enough to say... People would come in, as I would do now, and say, ‘Look, I really don’t think this is going to suit you, we shouldn’t do that, we should do this.’ And I think more at that age you were just doing what they asked you to do. I think it was a bit later that I realised... And then, because, probably I had a much stronger feeling about what they should look like. And eighteen’s quite hard, you know, to know what a forty-year-old woman wants to look like. Somehow I managed it.

Did you go to the cinema?

Again, I love the cinema, it’s very much, one of my joys now. Yes, but not, not kind of regularly. And I don’t, I think even thinking on that, the other problem you had with the cinema was, most films that were made were to some God only known reason, were about ten, fifteen years out of date. Even the cars in the films were like, ten, fifteen years old. People still didn’t wear the right clothes, or... You got the odd film that was terrific, you know. I mean in the Sixties, you got all those, what I call kitchen sink dramas, you know, like, Saturday Night and Sunday Morning, those kind of films. But before that, there would be mostly those Fifties blockbuster type films. I used to go to the cinema a huge amount when I was a kid, when I was doing a paper round, because I could afford to go, and I’d see endless Fifties westerns. You could sit through more than one, the film kept showing, they had a B film and a...an A film and a B film, and I would sit...so I would see all of that. That would be my introduction. And later, again I don’t quite know what age I would have been, was sort of, desperately falling in love with Bridget Bardot, you know, sort of...but that must have been Sixties again I think, or, or...no maybe not, maybe late Fifties. So...

But there wouldn’t be now what you would call arthouse, or I wasn’t aware of them. I don’t think there were, I think you would have to be a real boffin to have found them I would have thought. So most of the movies would have been, yes, those Fifties sort of, blockbuster type, you know, like Ben Hur or, again that was probably made much later. But if you, if you had a film that was supposed to be a modern day film of the time, invariably everyone looked ten years out of date. You know, you’d be sitting there and I’d think, ‘Why are you wearing that?’ you know, ‘That looks awful.’ And that didn’t change for a long long time.

Was there a cinema in Merstham?

There was one in Redhill, which is where I’d go and see all the Fifties westerns.

And how would you get there?

Oh on a bus probably. Or, no, I might have been using my bike by then. Don’t know what we did with the bikes; I don’t think people nicked bikes then, I can’t remember. (laughs) But, no, I’d probably have gone on bicycle, or, yes, or we jumped on a bus maybe.

And who would have gone with you?

A mate, or... We also sometimes used to try and get in to see an A film, which, you are supposed to have been an adult, you know, A, but you could go in with an adult if they would take you. So sometimes if they were queuing outside, you would say, ‘Would you take me in?’ When I think about that now, that wasn’t a good idea. (laughs) Probably about thirteen. Oh and... As I say, remember, I left school at fifteen, so I was earning money, and you, even though I was only earning £1.10s a week as an apprentice, I would get tips, and so I would have a... You know, lots of other friends like Peter, Peter went to work in a insurance company; I was probably earning more than him, but he was learning a different kind of profession. But nobody had that kind of money, unless you came from a very wealthy family.

And how much would you be tipped?

Oh boy, I wish I could remember. But I would... Yes, after I’d paid my ten shillings a week for my apprenticeship, I would have a pound left. I can’t honestly remember, but I would have thought I earned that much again, from tips, I would have thought. Which doesn’t sound very much, but at the time it was OK. It’s amazing you could live on £2 a week isn’t it. I lived at home remember, and I’d have to give my mother some money, mm, I can’t remember what I gave her, but I gave her something.

And would your salary have been based on the assumption that you would be getting tips?

Probably. It was traditional that everybody tipped you. Rare that somebody didn’t. And, probably even more so than now. And then of course, like nearly all hairdressers, when you actually become a stylist, you get, usually a basic salary and then some kind of commission on the work that you did. You know, I, I think by the time I was eighteen, nineteen, I was earning something like £20 a week, which would have been considered quite good. I was working my socks off, you know, eight till six, doing sometimes twenty clients a day, which is a lot of people to do. But you... And I was getting tips as well.

Were managers...were there female managers of...?

Oh very much so, yes.

As well?

Yes, I would say more than the other way round. Manageresses. I mean certainly the first person, apart from Leslie Green, who was like the boss, or considered the boss, I think he was a partner, yes, would be lady managers. So I’ve always been used to working with women in that sense. But, you know, as I say, I think, it took a while before I, particularly meeting Cathy, stopped seeing women in one way. (laughs) Yes, I don’t think that was my fault, I think that was just what we all did.

[end of session]

[End of F13774 Side B] [F14372 Side A]

I wondered whether you could explain what neutralising the perm actually does to hair.

OK. When you perm someone’s hair, put the perm lotion on, which breaks down the structure of the hair, then you put the rollers in. And then when the perm has taken, in those days what you’d do is, you’d undo one of the rollers that you’ve put in, and then push it forward and see that the curl was in it. And then when it was ready, usually about twenty minutes, you then put, you then neutralise the hair, which re-formed the structure of it. I don’t know what the chemical explanation of that is, but that’s exactly what it did. Yes.

And how would you apply the neutralising...?

Usually, in a sort of plastic bowl, you’d put the lotion in, and then you used a sponge, and you sponged every roller, so you make sure that... And that was a very important job, because if you can do it right, the perm wouldn’t hold. So, that was what we, that’s what you, one of the junior staff would do that, that’s what you learnt to do when you were one of those, and then, till you did the perm yourself obviously. It’s always a, always, I’ve not liked perms. You know, there’s been a whole history of people always wanting more volume and ‘bigger hair’. The perms in those days were, usually far too curly, and, well you put the perm in so that when you set the hair, after the perm, it was to keep the, that look in. You know, big hair. When I think back now, I hated it even then, sort of, and as I think I’ve already said, you know, my happiest days in those days when I was cutting hair was on a Saturday when I would get younger people in whose hair I could...they didn’t have a perm, and, you know, you were doing good haircuts, or trying to. I mean in occasionally when I, I remember being in Devon a couple of years ago and just walking past a, you know, a village, and seeing these ladies with their blue rinses, you know, with the perm, the little bunch of curls at the back. I mean, they really looked like they were wearing a hat, you know, they would all look ten years younger at least with a better haircut, and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/03 F14372A Page 47 not this awful permed thing. But it was good to learn, as I think I explained earlier, it was very good to learn how to do pin curls and finger waves and learn to do a perm. What it did teach you was to have good control over the hair, you know, if you can do those things, you...it does teach you how to have good control over the hair.

Would you have to wear any kind of protective clothing when you put on the...?

We used to wear overalls, you know, a jacket. Horrible blue nylon thing. God knows why they... It was probably, you know, made everyone a bit sweaty I should think, a horrible thing, in the winter – in the summer. Just awful things, yes. But, that’s what everybody wore.

And what about gloves did you have to wear...?

Yes, I beg your pardon, you would wear rubber gloves to, to protect your hands, because they would make them very dry. They were terrible chemicals. And all...and all of you as an apprentice, when you were a junior and shampooing all day long, you had really badly split, red, blistered hands. But it would go very quickly, it was actually the water more than the product that would, you know, cause that.

What would you do to ease your, your dry hands?

Oh, you’d put cream on them, you know, if you didn’t work for a couple of days they would disappear kind of thing. But, the perms in those days had a huge smell of ammonia, if you, you know, you’d walk in the shop and you’d smell that more than anything else, you know. And loads of people had perms. Even, I mean they were older people generally, even... So I suppose, being that age, you know, when I came into it, I think I’ve already said, in the beginning it was the beehives, and then...but these perm things always went along. And then there was a new one that was invented called ‘modelling’ I believe it was called, and when I say invented, all they did was make the perm curlers much bigger. The idea was that you didn’t have so much curl in it, but you still had the volume in it. But there were always... You know, for me perms are... There was a time in the Seventies when I, when people had curly hair, but left I to dry after a perm, a bit Kevin Keagan-ish if you like. And then

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/03 F14372A Page 48 we would use, instead of putting chemical products afterwards, you’d put henna on, that would make the hair a bit more shiny. And it worked if you just wet the hair down every day at home, and just let it dry by itself. I didn’t mind that look too much, sort of... Because you weren’t trying to hide the perm, you know, it was there just as a, curly hair.

And could you explain what henna is, and why...?

Henna is a natural product, and you boil it up literally. So you weren’t adding more chemicals to it. If you had a, if you had permed someone’s hair, it was already chemically processed. If you then put colour on as well, which people did, the end result was, incredibly dry hair, and only looked all right if you set it on rollers to make the hair look shiny again, you know, groomed it in that way.

Isn’t henna red colouring?

You can get... Most of them are red; you can get brown ones, there are one you can even put on blond hair as well. But generally they’re red, yes.

And what were the rollers made of?

They were plastic, you know. And the roller... It’s amazing how long rollers lasted, it was...you know, when I think of my own career, even later, in the Sixties when we were doing, when I had moved on from where we’re talking about now, you know, people would have huge, big rollers put in their hair to get a straight look, and then you straighten the hair after they have...but we’ll talk about that later I think.

And, could you describe the sort of, ritual of what would happen when a, when a...would you call them clients or customers?

Clients.

Walked through the door at Leslie Green, what would happen, how would you greet them?

When they walked in the door, there was a little cloakroom and a reception. So they’d be greeted. And you would always call, ‘Good afternoon madam,’ or ‘Good morning madam. And how are you today?’ that kind of thing. Take their coat. Put a gown round them. And then, you know, talk to them about what they wanted to do with their hair. And then, you know, permed it, did the colour, did the haircut or whatever you were doing, decide what kind of look for them. Just that itself takes a long time to learn, you know, to... I pretty much now know, if someone comes through the door I know pretty much what they’re going to ask me to do, or what they’d like me to do, if I’ve not got cut their hair before. And I think it was still the same then, but I think people had more, there were more obvious haircuts for obvious age groups. You know, a lot of people had that sort of, Mrs Thatcher hair, you know, with the curls on the side, and a perm. Perms were huge. A lot of colouring. There were water rinses in those days for very grey hair, to make them look like blue rinses. Hideous things. And then...

And why isn’t that a dye? Sorry.

Sorry?

Why isn’t that a dye?

That was a water rinse, literally like an ink that you mixed after you’d shampooed the hair, and then you put it through the hair, usually with a sponge again, comb it through. It was... Some people with grey hair, particularly in those...and now too, sometimes their hair goes a bit yellow; it was really designed to take that yellow away. And then from there it got more and more blue, or pink or...(laughs) And they literally, water rinses, I mean they, if you walked out in the rain, they would start to run down your face pretty much. And when you washed the hair, they would completely disappear. There was no chemicals in those as such.

So why did they dye their hair?

I think, with some people, if your hair’s really that wonderful silver grey colour, which can look terrific, and so in other words, the hair was grey all over at the same grey, if you tint that kind of hair, it tends to come out really flat colour, there’s no shades in it. And that would, could look ridiculous. You have to be very careful about colour in that sense.

And what were the, the, the robes like?

They were pretty much, like an overall I guess, but you... Not quite a kimono, because that was later. But, with sleeves, you know, to keep the hair off you, and then you usually have a belt that tied, to tie it round yourself. And obviously you put towels round people to protect them, their clothing and so on.

And, were the robes any particular colour, or material?

Usually navy blue again. Nylon again. That’s amazing how that came about isn’t it. I mean those were the days of string vests and, you know, nylon shorts. (laughs) Yes, I think, I...I doubt whether...I think there was more concern in those days to just do the hair rather than the ambiance or how you felt in that sense. A little bit of that, but not as, not like there is now, where you’re much more concerned about people being in the right environment. It was really, yes, I think I explained to you, you know, linoleum floors, very sort of cheap looking mirrors and, people sat in a row. Which... There were cubicles as well in those days, there were some people who would rather sit in a cubicle, and that would literally be a cubicle with a draw curtain across, so that when you sat down, no one could see you having your hair done.

And what sort of women asked for that?

Just women who didn’t like anyone to see them having their hair done, or seeing them with hair rollers, or, sitting with the perm curlers in, they didn’t want anyone to see them in that situation. You can see why it was such a change when I came to, you know, when we had our first unisex salon. Thinking now, it’s obviously what I reacted to.

And would you have a conversation with your clients...

Mm.

...while you were doing their hair? What...

What would you talk about? I, I still say it now to, like people I’m training, you know, if you really... Sometimes people don’t want to talk. Obviously, what they certainly will want to talk about is their hair, so, and that can be a conversation altogether. I mean what happens after a while when you know people very well, they ask you about your kids, and, where they’ve been on holiday. And even sometimes quite intimate things. But...

They ask you intimate things?

Well you share... You know, you... When you’re dealing with someone’s image, you actually, it’s quite an intimate situation, and, you know, often you will hear things about, you know, how they feel about themselves obviously, and maybe about their husband or their wife or whatever. And you have, you know, you need to, you need to know where they’re coming from in order to make them feel happy about how they look, and that’s often knowing about, quite a bit about them. So... But at that age, if we’re going back to being with Leslie Green, I mean I was eighteen, nineteen, and so when I’m, like now even when I’m teaching, I am sure he said the same to me, ‘Look, if you don’t know what to say to people, just talk about their hair, you know, how often they wash it, what do they do when they wash it, and,’ so on. So, the whole conversation could be about that.

You mentioned last time that you lost your accent quite quickly, and that, and that Keith in fact had been told not to say anything.

Yes. (laughs)

And, and I just wondered, because the sort of myth is that, that you know, people like David Bailey, Michael Caine, that somehow their cockney accent was, was an asset,

I think it became OK later, as you said, in the Sixties. I think probably the whole relationship between a client and the operator, in my case the hairdresser, I think is more those old-fashioned rules, as I said to you, people were called Madam, and, you didn’t use their first name or...and so it was ‘Mrs so-and-so is waiting for you,’ or...and those kind of things. And I suppose it was old-fashioned manners that you were supposed to be polite.

What did they call you?

Oh you had... I was called, when I was a hairdresser I was called Mr Leslie. And that was years...I mean no one uses that any more. And, you know, and that’s what the staff would call you as well. So I think, losing the cockney accent was probably, it wasn’t acceptable in the job that I did, and if you at all had any nous, you’d realise it wasn’t. And also, I think somebody like me, probably the first time I realised, you know, how important it was, language, in that sense. I mean, having a cockney accent, you really ruin the language, don’t you? No endings, you know, and that kind of thing. And I suppose I was just in a, what I would describe, a posher environment. And, really all I did was learn to speak like the people around me I guess.

And what did your family think about that?

Well they were used to it in a way, because, my elder sister was a hairdresser, which is how I...and she also spoke very differently to my brothers. So, they just thought, oh yes, well he’s in hairdressing, you know, that’s what they talk like. (laughs)

Did they tease you and Marion?

Sorry?

Did they tease you and Marion?

No, I don’t think so. I, I...I may have said earlier, I remember when I left school and went to do hairdressing, there were some people I wouldn’t tell that’s what I was doing, because it would immediately mean that you were gay, not that that was the word one used in those days.

What word would you have used?

Oh, queer. And, already... I suppose in a way they were already used to me being totally into fashion, you know, I explained earlier about altering my clothes, so, I don’t think they found it really strange. I think in a funny kind of way, sometimes working-class families, that happens easier, you....you know, you can be eccentric, ‘Oh that’s just him,’ you know, ‘that’s just what he behaves like.’

Can I ask you about tipping in, when you were working at Leslie Green? You mentioned that, that your salary was based on the fact that you would get tips. How did that work?

I can’t remember exactly how the salary was based, but all hairdressers, even now, work on some kind of a commission. So your salary was based on how many clients you did. And, I can’t remember, you know, you got, say, x amount... You got a very small basic salary, which I can’t remember what it was; then after a certain amount of takings you got ten per cent, and so on, and it went up, the more you took the more you get. I mean, as far as I know now, the average hairdresser usually gets about thirty-three per cent of whatever they, whatever the takings are. Tips, I guess, I think most people even then, and I’m sorry, I can’t remember very clearly, would probably give you ten per cent of what the bill was, you know, so, if it was £1, you got 10p or something.

So, sorry, thirty-three per cent of, of their own takings, or...?

Yes. Now I’m talking about. And what happened in hairdressing, it still does I think, that, the more successful you become, obviously the more money you generate, and then, I think you would do a deal with whoever you work for to say, you know, ‘Look, I’m doing this, I should be getting more of my takings.’ But, I...you know, as

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/03 F14372A Page 54 an eighteen-year-old, by which time I was cutting people’s hair and, I mean on a Saturday I would often do twenty clients; we used to start at 8.30 in the morning and finish at 6.30, and you didn’t stop at all, yes.

[break in recording - telephone]

And what about the rest of the week, were there particular days...?

There were. I mean, Saturday was always the big day. But, I mean, I think, if you were quite successful, you’re...pretty much every day would be, we used to work five and a half days a week, we’d work Wednesday morning, and then the rest was, you know, quite busy. But, I don’t think I did twenty clients every day, but I still... But, you worked very hard. So, I seem to remember, sort of, when I was about eighteen, earning like, £20 a week, which was quite a good salary, you know, I remember buying myself a little Mini and things like that, which was, by the time I was about nineteen. So it was quite a, you could earn some money. Not so easy now, but much easier then.

Why is it not so easy now?

I think overheads are so huge. You need to charge a huge amount to make it. I mean, to be successful now, if you want to make loads of money, you know, the West End end of the hairdressing, you need to be selling lots of products, you know, being on television doing makeovers. I would say most sort of salons now, you know, the names you will know, like Nicky Clarke and so on, are probably quite happy if the salon doesn’t make very much money, but, but it’s a good vehicle to sell all your products.

So how...well, just a sort of in comparison with the present, how much does a haircut with you cost now?

Now, it’s £57, which includes VAT. And a man is about £54. I’ve always wanted to make them exactly the same, but I’ve never been able to quite bring... I’ve gradually over the years brought... Why they should be different is really... It takes the same

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/03 F14372A Page 55 amount of time, and you book up, the same thing. But, you know, the nature of doing hair in those days was very different. You know, now I do a client every hour basically, and, because, well I’m not setting their hair, not putting rollers in, I’m blow-drying it, I’m with that client for that long. In those days, going back to being with Leslie Green, you would have, if you were doing twenty clients a day, you would have two or three clients under the dryer, and one that you were either cutting or combing out, you know, when they came out of the dryer. So, you worked in a very different way. Appointments were allocated differently. So, yes, that was how I worked nearly all the time. So you had people under the dryer. Very difficult to stay on time. You generally, you know, I can’t...the amount of times I must have said to somebody, ‘I’m sorry I’ve kept you waiting,’ would... (laughs) I wish I had £1 for every one I had, it would be, be all right. Mm. So that’s how you worked, it was, you really did, you know... And... I think in a week, probably wasn’t quite as busy if I’m... Probably Monday might have been a quieter day, that kind of thing. But when you were at it, you were sort of, busy. And, you also get to the point, when you’re in that situation, and indeed, I got to that point when I was at Leonard’s even, is you have standing appointments. You often did the same people every week, because they came in for a hair set. So, on, I can’t quite remember at Leonard’s, I can remember at Leonard’s, I can’t quite remember Leslie Green, but I would have probably standing appointments for the same people every Friday, the same people every Saturday, who came in once a week and had their hair set. That’s what a lot of people did, they’d come in and they’d have a...didn’t do their hair at home themselves, would come in and have it set, and would expect it to stay for a week until they came in again.

So, so, would they wash it at home?

No, that’s what I mean, they would come in to you every Friday, every Saturday, whenever it was, and you would do it for them. And you say to them, ‘Did your hair stay well, did your hair keep in?’ And, they would expect it to.

Did you have anybody sort of, assisting you at Leslie...?

Oh yes. You... Well, you were all allocated a junior, which would have been an apprentice like you’d been yourself, they would shampoo your clients, pass you rollers if you were doing a hair set, or perm curlers or whatever you were doing. And your job as an apprentice is to look after your stylist, to make sure that he has or she has everything that they need to service the customer, client.

Like what, like...?

Make sure the rollers are there, hair pins, you know. If you were going to put someone’s hair up in a chignon, there are all the right pins to keep the hair up. The brushes that you needed to use. A comb, you know. Usually all hairdressers carry their scissors with them all the time, so, in their pocket kind of thing. So your job as a junior is to make sure that, a) that the client is comfortable, you know, and b), probably more importantly if you like, that the stylist that you’re helping has all the tools and everything they need.

And how long would a junior stay with you?

In my time, you did a three-year apprenticeship, that was the usual thing. And then you were, after three years you were then, if you were good enough, allowed to cut people’s hair and set their hair or whatever. And then you were considered an improver for two years. I think I explained, you had to pay to be an apprentice as well. But I mean, even now there’s not really, those rules aren’t law, it’s just that that’s the way it works. And I have to say, I think even now, to be a fully all-round hairdresser, you need five years to really be experienced enough to know what to do. You know, you...there’s no substitute for experience. I think I said earlier, and it wasn’t necessarily conceited, I didn’t find hairdressing very difficult to do. By the time I was eighteen I was busy, I was doing it. But, you know, even there, even if that situation, I still think, oh you were a much better hairdresser two years later, so, I had done my five years.

But...

So, those, during those three years as an apprentice, you would be doing the jobs I’ve just described, you would be shampooing, sweeping the floor, and looking after your stylist to make sure that, you know, everything was there for them.

So, you were...you were Leslie Green’s particular apprentice for three years?

Yup. And for, for three years, which was... And it was, it was...it was one of those situations where, if you were the boss’s junior, it was kind of, the best job, because, he...you probably...he as the boss, like I do in my place, don’t accept tips, it’s traditional, if it’s your salon, you don’t accept tips. So, the clients tended to be much more generous with the, with the boss’s apprentice.

So...

So, I was...that’s why, I probably was earning more tips than the others. And, you know, the more charming you are, and the more nice you are, people would be more generous with giving you a tip. But I’ve always thought, I’ve never... There’s a way of doing it, I don’t like crawling, if that’s the right...you know what I mean, being too over-the-top. I’ve always been much more laid back than that. But you still need to be nice to people.

[End of F14372 Side A] [F14372 Side B]

So, sorry, to go...to clarify something about the tipping.

Mm.

The client would tip the stylist and the...

And the apprentice.

Yes.

And who was your apprentice when you... Did you have an apprentice at Leslie Green?

Oh yes I did, I sadly can’t remember who. Because sometimes, a lot of...there’s quite a turnover in hairdressing, there always was, people who come into it, don’t realise how hard you have to work, it’s very long hours, how much training you need to do to become good. And, and it’s very poorly paid, it always has been, for an apprentice. You...even though with your tips, it wouldn’t have given you a very good salary; you needed to, you know, to work very hard. And the only way out was to make sure you became a hairdresser to, to earn some money. So there would be quite a, probably a few, you know, there were several who, some of them lasted a while. Hairdressers always moan about the apprentices. ‘In my day they wouldn’t have done that,’ that kind of stuff. But, you know, I think there’s, over the years there’s, I’ve learnt a lot about how to get the best out of people, though that’s something else, but... You know, where I came from, and knowing what my sister knew about hairdressing, I knew what you had to do really, and if there was something that, you know, I thought, hang on, that’s not quite right, I would usually go and ask her, ‘Is this what do you do in this situation?’ and she would be very helpful. And, you do become very close to people. I mean, when I was Leslie Green’s apprentice, he was a very generous man. I remember opening my first bank account and he acted as guarantor, and... And, I, I do the same myself. When you’ve got some young kid that comes along and you can see that they like doing it, and they’re keen, and they‘re good, it gives you quite a pleasure to actually teach them, and to pass on what you know. That’s a good thing in hairdressing, most people are not hanging on to their own ideas, and want...you know, keeping them to themselves. It’s nice to share new ideas with people. So he was very nice to me, and he, I think I’ve said earlier, I’m very grateful for the basic training; even though it was terribly old-fashioned, it was a very good, sound technique. And you...so, when you know that people, when you had an apprentice, and OK, they’re not getting paid very much, but you say to them, ‘I’ll teach you, I’ll help you,’ and that’s really how it worked I think basically, and still does.

So can you tell now when somebody comes to you to be an apprentice, how soon can you tell whether they’ll be any good?

Quite quickly. I mean, firstly, if you’re going to be a hairdresser, and you, you need to be a sociable person. If you don’t like people, you’re in the wrong game kid. You’ve got to have an interest in fashion obviously, and a keen interest, or music, or, for me they’re both the same thing. And, you can pretty much quickly tell. There has been several occasions where I’ve said to people, ‘I really don’t think this is for you,’ you know. You have to be very careful how you do that, but it’s, they’re just, they’re never going to be very good, or, they’re going to be very average and not really do very well. Sorry to sound like an old granddad but, a lot of young people have lost the skill of being an apprentice, it’s, it’s not something they want to, you know, spend that amount of time any more. With my own two kids, it’s...luckily for me, they’ve got my work ethic, and their mum’s. But no it’s true, a lot of, a lot of...they can’t see too far ahead, you know. It is going to be five years, it’s going to be three years learning, and then two years getting somewhere, and then after that you might do OK. And now I think it’s sort of, I think, there is far more to it, the hairdressing thing goes beyond just your job; I think in the time when I was an apprentice, it was just, you know, I was learning my job properly. But, along with it I always had this interest in fashion, so it was kind of, you know, the reason I moved on from Leslie Green was that I wasn’t able to do the kind of work that I wanted to do, not because I wanted to stop doing it.

So what do you, what did you mean when you said now it’s more than just a job?

I think now, the way that we treat our clients is, I see quite a few of my clients socially. I would never have seen any of my clients in those days socially; I’d be rather embarrassed if I did. You know, now I see, if I’m out in a restaurant, I’ll obviously...and we have a chat, and it’s... There are people now I’ve known for a long long time, which make it easier. But I think you need to, you, if you’re being a young hairdresser in London, and you, you need to be out and about, seeing what’s going on, and you are going to bump into people, and often that’s the way that you get to know people and how they come to you to have their hair cut. I love the side of it which I certainly didn’t have, I was too young at eighteen, being at Leslie Green’s,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/03 F14372B Page 60 where, I’ve got some fascinating clients that, I mean a lot of their life stories, and what they do. And again, it...when I say it goes beyond... If you want to do someone’s hair and make them happy, you do need to know about them, you know, it’s... The golden rule we have at Smile, if you haven’t cut someone’s hair, the first thing you do is, you sit them down, and you give a really good...talk to them, about what they want, and... And you get to...you get...you have to learn a little bit about them. You know, they say things like, you know, ‘I’m not...I don’t have time, my hair has to be...I’ve got five minutes in the morning, I’m out meeting clients, I’m...’ usually tell you what they do. And you need to understand all of that to, satisfy them. And this is also what Smile was all about. Again, we’ll get to that later, yes.

So, so just to clarify something. You don’t mean then that for your sort of, recently sort of trained, shall we say, staff, that, that they necessarily have become friends with their clients yet.

No. It’s...it...that’s all part of that three years being an apprentice thing. Not friends with them, but you...you don’t let them cut anyone’s hair unless you’re absolutely sure that they’re going to give them a very good haircut, that’s the first thing. But you know, people come into you because of your whole ambiance, the whole atmosphere you’re putting out. So, the new apprentice must be fully aware of that – the new, sorry, the new stylist who’s done their apprenticeship. And by that time, I would only let them cut someone’s hair knowing that they would know that. So they wouldn’t be their friends exactly, but, the clients would come in and they’d expect them to behave in a certain way I guess. And, and if... So in the beginning, if you don’t really know the client very well, i.e. the first time you’ve done it, all you can really do is be professional. And then, there’s very subtle ways of you finding out about someone without being personal. And they would need to have that skill. And that actually, it takes them as long to know that as it does to actually do the hairdressing itself.

[pause]

Lighting a cigarette. (laughs)

Oh God! Got to be edited, that bit. Sorry.

Can you give an example of how you might teach an apprentice to find something out about somebody without being personal, and that isn’t just based on their looking at somebody?

Yup. What, just by looking at them, or by asking, talking to them? Well, as I explained just now, the first thing if you haven’t cut someone’s hair before, you, you sit and talk to them. It’s different now, because you’ve got to remember that we don’t use rollers any more, which is the whole thing, whole big thing in 1969 when we began Smile, we refused to put rollers in anyone’s hair. Again we’ll come to that later, but it was a, it was a massive thing to do. So, people are coming in to Smile knowing that, that, you know, it’s not new any more, but thirty-four years ago when we began, it was. So, you would, you would go up to them, and obviously you’d say, ‘How...what am I going to...how am I going to do your hair? What are we going to do with you?’ You know, not in those words. And then that’s when you find out, you then ask people questions, ‘Well how often do you wash and do your hair?’ And remember we are now cutting people’s hair for them to look after it themselves, I mean this was our whole big thing when we began Smile, and I wanted to get away from what I was doing again then from Leonard’s. So you...it just, that question, someone’s just told you how often they wash their hair. You then could say, you know, ‘How many times do you shampoo it?’ And there’s a lot of my, a lot of people now, I say to them, ‘You’re washing your hair far too much. Don’t wash it every day, just wet it down.’ And then again, just, in that conversation, they will say to me, ‘Well I just don’t have that time in the morning. You know, my first client, my first customer, I’ve got to be in the office by...I have to look very smart.’ And already you’re building up a picture, and it’s, the more you do it, it’s very obvious. As I said to you, I can pretty much tell you if I haven’t cut someone’s hair, more or less what they’re going to ask me to do, just by seeing them. But that’s after years.

I think we should go back.

Yes, sorry, we’re jumping around here aren’t we.

No, well, no no, it’s, it’s me really asking questions, but...

Yes. Whereas, going back to being with Leslie Green, when I was eighteen, a) I didn’t have those skills anyway, and it was very, you know, I was, you were doing certain set hairstyles that they... ‘I want my hair like...’ and you did it, and you kept it, you know. That was what was expected of you. And as I said to you, the day I liked the most was Saturday when I’d get someone, the younger people in who didn’t want that, you know, I could do a haircut. So I suppose in my head in those days, I had it as those customers that, clients that I was doing, wanted that particular look, or a perm or, whatever, I was doing A, B, C or D or E haircut, you know, and, making them happy in that way.

But don’t people ever come in now with a picture and say, ‘I want my hair like that’?

Oh God! yes. And I don’t get... There used to be a time where I had them telling me my job and all that. No way, I’m very happy if they come in with a... It, again, describes a lot about what they want. And just the picture they’re showing you tells a lot about them. (laughs) And there are lots of times when you say, ‘Well yes, OK, it’s quite nice, but what about...?’ And then you explain, if you change it a bit, that it would work much nicer for them.

And have you got any sort of examples of, of somebody coming in with a particular photograph or...?

Yes, I mean, in recent...there’s always somebody famous that they, that’s when they first see the haircut. It’s usually not that the other...you know, it’s just that that person’s made that haircut well known, like in, I would say in the last few years, Meg Ryan’s kind of scruffy hair, loads of people would point to that and say, ‘Well, you know, that’s what I want to look like.’ Or they like that kind of hair. And usually what’s happened, it hasn’t come, for the hairdressers, you come round the other way, you’re already doing it anyway. But, people point to somebody in the Sixties, there was, like Mia Farrow had very short cropped hair, and, ‘Oh I want a Mia Farrow haircut.’ What’s her name, Fawcett-Majors in the Seventies, you know, with her layered look. And, yes, and indeed my dear chum Cathy in the Sixties, I mean they would say, you know, ‘Oh I want a Cathy McGowan haircut.’ Mary Quant haircut.

It’s probably, it’s an easy way of describing what you want too. But it’s not, it’s invariably not those people who have had their hair cut first, but they’ve, they’re the ones who have made it well known.

And would the age of the person bringing in the photograph be similar to the particular famous person?

What you find with fashion is, you adapt it usually for whoever you’re doing it for, and that would take in their age. I’ll give you a present example, like Michael Parkinson has been a client of mine for thirty years, and he’s now got a very short haircut, and, you know, that’s a good example of, you know, I understand what Michael’s image is a bit, and what he does, and he needs to look modern but he doesn’t want to look like a, a, you know, eighteen-year-old footballer with a shaved head or something. I mean, that’s, you know... So you need, you need to...that’s experience really, that you need to understand. Again, that’s a very obvious, what we were talking about earlier, to understand what someone’s about. I know he’s a famous person on TV, but, you need to...I need to know what he’s, he’s giving out, and that’s a bit about getting to know anybody, you need to know a little bit abut them to give out the right sort of, the image they’re giving out. And that’s why you do become, it becomes a fairly personal relationship sometimes. Not a silly intimate one, but, you do need to understand people.

So do men clients come in with photographs of haircuts they want?

People like him? No. No he...Parky wouldn’t, no.

Or any, any men.

Yes, you get....you get any age group that would come in with a picture. It might be, I don’t know, if you’re in your sixties it might be some famous actress that you admire, ‘I think she looks terrific for her age, I wouldn’t mind looking like her.’ But generally, when you’ve been doing someone’s hair for a while, you, as the hairdresser, say, ‘Look, I think we should...let’s do...we should do something different. I think we should change this.’ And hopefully they trust you enough to

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/03 F14372B Page 64 realise that, that’s what they come to you for, that you...you know, what you’re really saying is that, I think we should change this look now, it’s kind of, time for a new haircut, and make it more modern, and update it or whatever.

But, sorry, I meant, do your male clients ever come in with photographs and say, ‘I want my hair like that’?

Yes... The thing for us now, and, all right, for Smile, and for, I suppose most hairdressers, is generally, we hardly have anybody that walks in off the street. It’s very much that they’ve been recommended to you. So, even that in itself, they’re just saying, you know, ‘So-and-so told me about you and I’m, you know...blah blah, want to come in for a haircut.’ So, immediately, the nice thing about that is, they’ve come because they want you anyway. I’ve never worked in a place where...they probably did it a bit at Leslie Green’s I guess, where they just walked in off the street. That’s really hard, not hard, but it’s much tougher, is... And I, since the last, since, certainly since Smile, thirty-four years, I never do a client unless they have asked for you. So, immediately, you know, I’m going to get, overcome that barrier of what they want.

So they’ve asked for you personally rather than the place, you mean?

Yes, but I...that... You know, I wouldn’t recommend somebody, some, a restaurant or a, whatever, unless I know the person I’m talking to would like that, you know. Because, you know, it’s, it’s no good going into a Chinese restaurant and wanting a pasta, you know what I mean? So, it’s the same thing I guess, that you...there are some people who ask you about certain things, and I, I know they wouldn’t like a place, and I think the same thing exists for us as hairdressers, you know, they... As I say, it’s no good going into a Chinese restaurant and wanting a pasta. It’s no good you coming to Smile and you want rollers put in your hair. It’s not going to happen. And why send anybody who does that, you know. And that’s about the image that you project as much as anything else.

But are you talking about yourself, or Smile?

I’m talking both. But, particularly... No both, yes, they’re the same, yes.

And how do you decide between you and Keith, say you get somebody like that, who, who this person will go to?

If someone comes in off...

If someone... Not off the street, but if someone is recommended to Smile.

Rather than one individual you mean? It’s difficult on the telephone, if you like, but, there’s, for us there’s always, because we always train our own staff, we don’t employ them from elsewhere, so we’re very happy for them, whoever they go to. So usually when someone would ring up, we’re giving them the new person who’s...the new kid on the block, the new whiz kid that’s coming along. And, that’s how they’ve all built up their clientele. And a lot of, a lot of our staff are now doing clients that we used to do. And that’s come about from you not being there one time on holiday, and they can’t get an appointment with you, and they’re very happy to go to... And then they, they build up that way. I remember one Christmas Eve morning, about ten years ago, we usually always Christmas Eve, we’re finished about twelve o’clock, the whole Christmas thing is over, but the[???] traditional, ‘Are you open?’ So we have a fairly busyish, well not very. And then, I can’t remember how many clients there were, and I said to Keith, ‘You realise that every client in this shop,’ and at that time there must have been about ten hairdressers, ‘used to be our clients.’ They were all...they used to come to me or Keith. And which is lovely, I like that. They, they...that means that you have built a nice place that they’re happy to go to. You know, I’ve worked in hairdressers before, and all of them, Leonard’s included, where, you know, if you start doing someone else’s client, the other hairdresser gets quite fed up with you, because it’s like, you’ve pinched their client. Well I...we don’t have that, you know, it’s, it’s stupid. I’m much happier that a client comes to Smile; whether she comes to me or whether she goes to Keith or, he, doesn’t matter. So... So someone ringing up who’s not asking for somebody, would be getting the, the new person that we’re... And then explain as well, we’re very happy for them to have the new person, because we’re very happy with what they do, otherwise they wouldn’t be working there.

Since we’re on the subject, could you just explain who your staff are at the moment?

Now. It’s...it changes quite a lot. It’s quite international now. (laughs) There’s Keith and I obviously. And then we have a Canadian girl called Chris, who has been with us for, pff, sixteen years? Then we have a guy called Stan who’s been with us for nearly thirty years. And then we have a girl called Delta, who’s been with us for nineteen years, she’s...so, and Delta’s half Portuguese. Until recently had a French guy working with us who had been with us for about ten years. And then another guy called Derek who, thirty-two years. So...and they’ve all been juniors there, and then they’ve all learnt their stuff there, which is very nice, very...it becomes very family- orientated in a way, you know, that you... People do say, and I’m very happy, you know, they love coming there because the atmosphere is nice. And we don’t have people bitching with each other, and... I mean they do in the staff room, obviously, that amount of people together, but not... You know, if you came in, I think you’d find it a jolly atmosphere, which again is what we wanted to do from the beginning.

And what about your apprentices, or your...?

At the moment... Oh yes, sorry, I wanted to go on to talk about those. We have four most lovely Lithuanian girls, who are here with proper P45s and all the rest of it, who I find absolutely delightful. They’ve got those old-fashioned manners that we were talking about earlier. And we have one hairdresser who’s nearly finished her training who is Lithuanian as well, so there’s five of them.

How did that come about, that they’re all Lithuanian?

That came about from employing somebody about, three years ago as a receptionist, and she was from Lithuania. Spoke four languages, so, the most amazing...wonderfully well educated, all of them. They all speak English quite well. She spoke English perfectly, and French and Spanish and God knows what else. It was, when we were looking for apprentices, she said, ‘Oh I know someone’s coming over,’ you know. And so we, we’ve now set that precedent, and I think... And we’re very happy to have them, they’re wonderful.

OK, well we’ll talk more about...

Yes.

...about Smile. But we’ll finish because there’s hardly any...

OK.

[End of F14372 Side B] [F14373 Side A]

OK. So how did you come to, to go to Leonard’s?

Well, explaining how I, you know, felt about hairdressing, what I wanted to do, I realised that if I wanted to do more of that kind of, the work that was interested in, I’d have to go and work in, in London, in the West End. So... And it’s not easy, because, I don’t...it’s still not easy I’m sure to... If you came from the suburbs, they weren’t going to be very interested in you. And, I realised, they weren’t going to give me a job as a hairdresser immediately. So, I literally used to, on my afternoon off on a Wednesday, I’d go up to town, and literally go into the hairdresser and say, ‘Are you looking for anyone? I’m looking for a job.’ I remember going to one in, Andre Bernard it was called in Conduit Street I think it was, and they said, ‘We might be, you’ll have to come and do a haircut for him,’ which I did. And, when I went to Leonard’s... Yes Leonard’s or Vidal Sassoon were the two places, the best places to work, as far as I could see, the work they did, you know, they were always in fashion magazines and so on. And at that time Leonard’s salon was in Duke Street just off Grosvenor Square, and it was a very tiny shop. And they’d been in there I think a couple of years, and they were about to move to a new premises just off Grosvenor Square, Upper Grosvenor Street, which was much bigger. So I think I was a bit lucky, they, they kind of said, ‘Come and do a haircut, and we’ll, you know, maybe we’ll give you a job.’ And I think the fact that they’d just not long, I think it was six months before I started working there, they kind of said in Duke Street, ‘Yes we’d be interested in you, but there’s no space for you here, come back when we’ve moved,’ which I did. And then I did a haircut for them, as an example of what I could do. And they said, quite rightly, that, ‘OK, you’re quite good but not you’re not quite

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373A Page 68 good enough.’ Which was correct. So I got a job as, not being an apprentice but, my job was to look and learn. And, I would be like an apprentice, but I’d stand next to Leonard. At that time it was called Raphael and Leonard, there were two partners. Or I’d...

Sorry, could we close the window?

Yes.

Because of the noise.

[break in recording]

They’ve started, isn’t that a bugger.

[break in recording]

So, they gave me a job, and what I did was, you know, it was wonderful, because, they were doing the sort of work that I wanted to do. Still a bit more dressy, still using rollers and things. But, Leonard particularly was, was a wonderful hairdresser, and I... He was doing what I wanted to do.

Sorry, can I just ask you, if you can remember what haircut you did for him as a, as a...?

I cut someone’s hair in a bob basically, you know, with a very heavy fringe, and straight hair, no, no... I did use rollers... What you used to do then was, you’d dry their hair quite a bit, so it was still damp, and then you’d put massive great big rollers in. And then you took them out from under the dryer when they were dry, and then used a...do you know what a Denman brush is? It’s,..anyway, it’s a brush that you could really grip the hair, and then with the dryer you pulled it straight. Sometimes you used straightening irons, to get that really shiny, straight bob look basically, that’s what I did.

Could you describe the Denman brush?

It’s a sort of... It’s... It used to have, and still does in fact, it’s like, got a flat top, and it’s got prongs really, and they used to have a sort of, which came out of a rubber pad, so they actually gave a bit. And that you could use, you could really brush the hair through with it, it would really go through the hair. As opposed to a bristle brush which you would just smooth the top of the hair.

And what were the prongs made out of?

Plastic, yes. So... So I got the job. Oh... And I was, I think I explained earlier to you, I was probably earning about £20-odd a week, and they paid me £5 to, you know, some nominal sum. So luckily, I’d saved a little bit of my money. And, you know, this is what I wanted to do, and so it was up to me to sort of make the best of that situation. And then, what I also used to do is, I would get friends to come in, or whatever, to, as models, during the day time, and I would cut their hair, and then Leonard would check it out, and... I don’t think he really taught me, but he would say what, what he thought was wrong with it. And, he wasn’t a great teacher, he wasn’t someone who would sort of stand over you and... So... But I knew enough by then to...I wasn’t good enough, but within three months I was more than good enough. And, because I was seeing...you do bounce off where you are, and, it was a terrific place to be in the Sixties. I mean pretty much all the West End hairdressers now that I have any respect for came from there really, or from Sassoon. Daniel Galvin worked there, Michael and John who became Michaeljohn, John Frieda was working there. Another hairdresser called Celine who, I didn’t admire the way she cut hair, but she, the best sort of chignons I’d ever seen. It was probably like being in, you know, the best art school at the time, where there was just, there were good people there, so it was a sort of wonderful place to be. So... In the beginning to be honest I found it quite daunting, I didn’t...you know, I knew what I knew... And I didn’t realise that, even at that time, that my influence had always come round through sort of pop music and street fashion, and we certainly got a lot at Leonard’s where you have, you know, the editor of Vogue magazine, who were much more interested in haute couture, you know, and that kind of end of fashion. And in fact, it’s, and we’ve talked about Cathy earlier, by that time Cathy had just, had got her job on Ready Steady Go! which is

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373A Page 70 where I would meet lots of pop stars and have clients like Sandie Shaw. And in fact, I think through me they wouldn’t normally have gone to places like Leonard’s; they would go...I don’t know where they’d go. I always remember the Beatles used...their girlfriends used to cut their hair. They never went to hairdressers like that. So that was my, that was my thing that I did. I mean obviously I did, I did lots of fashion shows where we did, you know, at Leonard’s, I mean I did photographic work for Vogue and Harpers, doing that more sort of haute couture thing. But even when I’d work for Vogue, it was for, I worked with a lady called Marit Allen who was editor of Young Idea Vogue, and the whole purpose of the pictures was this new Sixties young thing coming along. So that was always...and that was where I was coming from anyway, so it was sort of perfect. Other people who worked there, people like Michael and John, had much more, Lady this and Lady that as a client, Lady Crichton Stuart I can remember, and, sort of top models as well. And, a lot of them used to come to me because of the pop thing again. So it was a very exciting time, it was, it was terrific to come, come from where I’d come from and be working where I always wanted to be, or in the West End, it was really a great...and I’m always very grateful for that place. So, Leslie Green, and then later Leonard, that was the big thing, for me.

Can you remember what you wore for that first interview?

Oh a suit and a tie. By then, if you worked in the West End, it would be considered sort of suburban if you had an overall on. So, I would have a suit and a tie, and that’s what you wore, that’s how you cut people’s hair, with a suit and a tie on all the time.

But, for the interview?

I did, a suit, yes. I can’t remember which one it was. But it would have... It would have been the suits that Leonard was wearing, you know, it would have been a, somewhere I got it made, you know, but not at that kind of price, but... And again, even then I think, I probably looked at it more street fashion than Leonard did, you know, it was very, smart. I’ll never forget, one of my favourite clients in that time was Barbara Hulanicki at Biba, and I did get to know her very well socially. She would always, on a Thursday evening she’d be making a dress for Cathy to wear for

Ready Steady Go!, and she, Barbara, was very street fashion, and the sort of clothes that Cathy loved, and we were interested in. And she always used to say to me, ‘Oh God! I love the way you cut my hair, but I hate coming in.’ And I’d say, ‘What do you mean?’ She said, ‘Well, I feel like I’ve got to put a bloody Chanel suit on, you know, to, to feel like I’ve been there.’ I mean it was a very grand place, it was one of those huge white-fronted houses that you get in Mayfair. So you walked up the steps, and you went in, and ahead of you was a huge staircase going up to what used to be the salon, the reception would be on the floor, downstairs. And on the stairs there was this huge statue of a boy, you know, with a, waving a thing that cooled you down, you know those... (laughs) So it was all very grand, and Leonard was, that was his thing, you know, it was a very sort of, high fashion, smart salon. But, no it was really nice, because I really did...I was able to do the kind of work I wanted to do. But even then, I was trying to... What would happen in those days, you would also have a very very rich clientele, mostly from north London, who you did do sort of, really chic haircuts, but you still had to backcomb them a bit, you still had to dress them a bit. And that was always not my thing, and I was always trying to do these more, what I call street fashion hair. So...

So, could you describe this, the north London backcombing haircut? (laughs) I can’t imagine it.

You would have...they would be... Let’s see if I can explain it. They would be wearing the latest fashions, you know, but it would be very much the smart end, Chanel suits, that kind of thing. They would also come in, have standing appointments. You would still be cutting, you know, very sort of, modern haircuts, like a bob, but they would just like it a bit more set than I wanted to do. They wanted it to look more of a hair style, a bit more backcombing. The biggest thing I’d remember mostly about that is, there was a fashion, and I can’t remember what year it was, I mean I joined Leonard in ’64, it was probably about ’66, when a lot of those women had hairpieces as well. They would have... So they would come in and have their hair done as you would cut it, in a bob or whatever. And there was a look at that time particularly with flick-ups, so it would be shoulder length hair. And again you would still be putting rollers in, putting them under the dryer, and then, straightening it in the way I was explaining. And then the next day they’d probably, if they were

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373A Page 72 going somewhere, they’d come back with their hairpiece and you’d put their hair up in a chignon. That went on for quite a long time, which, we all did, because that’s what the clients wanted.

So like Jackie Kennedy’s hair?

Yes. That kind of thing. And, I...she had a hairpiece too, and you know, one minute you’d see them go out in the evening and you’d put the hair up. That was fun. That for me was new too, I didn’t...when I joined Leonard I never really do that kind of stuff. But, you know, just by watching, there was a girl called Celine particularly, I think I mentioned, all her clients were like that, you know. And again, I was trying to, I was much more interested in the haircutting. (laughs) But, I just watched her a few times, and, kind of learnt how...or, saw how to do it really. I don’t think...no one actually showed me how to do it, or, or you know, I didn’t really...or Leonard never showed me how to cut someone’s hair, but I learnt from him, watching him do it, and, ‘Oh God! yes, if you do that, you’ll get that look,’ you know, you can... And I, that’s how you learnt.

And can you remember what sort of things Leonard noticed when you did that first cut for him, that were wrong?

It probably... It wasn’t quite sharp enough I guess. You know, I...I could do it, but I didn’t have enough technique to make it look really as dramatic as it should have looked. And, I suppose I kind of knew it really, but it was, it was, you know, and he was quite right, I wasn’t quite good enough.

And who was the model that you would have cut that sort of trial haircut on?

Well I...oh when I did it, it was, it was Cathy, before...I think...I’m sure...yes, before Ready Steady Go!. So, I’d been cutting hair for a long time anyway, and you know, so it was... I don’t know if you remember what her hair was like, but it was very much... The other thing he wouldn’t have liked particularly is, I used to cut her fringe really long, I mean it was almost in her eyes, but that was what, you know, the younger people wore. He would, I think he would have thought, the fringe is too

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373A Page 73 long, you know, and I haven’t cut it as straight as I should have cut it, which he was probably right about. Yes, that’s, that’s who. So, I was showing him that, he didn’t know she was my girlfriend or whatever, but, the stuff I wanted to do.

So, when you went round the West End salons looking for, for an opening...

Mm.

...you would have to supply your own model to do the [inaudible]?

Most of the time. Apart from the other hairdressers I mentioned, a place called Andre Bernard, I didn’t even get a chance to do that. Some of them I realised anyway just by walking in, there was no way in the world that I would fit in in this place. Even then, there were the...you know, and if you went to work for Vidal Sassoon, you... I nearly worked there once, which, after I’d been at Leonard’s for about six months, or nine months I think it was, I actually met Vidal Sassoon at Ready Steady Go!, and, he really liked Cathy’s hair and said, you know, ‘If you want to have a job, you know, come and see me.’ So, I thought, well I might as well go and talk to them. And I went along to the salon in Bond Street, on a school night, to meet one of the managers there to talk about, whether I was going to work there or not. And I walked in, and they had about twenty juniors all training. And they were all doing the same haircut, a Mary Quant haircut. And some of the models were sixty, and some of them were twenty. And I thought, that’s not how I see this at all. That was very much his thing, you know, you learnt those basic haircuts. They were beautifully executed technically, some of them. But I thought, pff, I can’t approach it like that, I can’t... It really was, if you went there, you had what their latest haircut was, it was all very angled haircuts, which I liked, and they were very well done, but I wouldn’t want to do it on everybody. And I thought, nah, this is not...I’m going to stay where I am, and, I’m very pleased I did.

As I understand he gave his haircuts names.

He did, but I can’t remember them all now. I think I’m doing what everyone else does, associating them with somebody. You know, in the Sixties there were a lot of

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373A Page 74 very smart sort of thirty-year-old women walking around with a Mary Quant haircut, which, I’m sure you know what that looks like. Same on that cover. But yes, I think there were looks, there were names for them, which I can’t really remember now, you know. I think I had no interest in the names of them. As I said, again, that wasn’t what I wanted to do, it wasn’t...didn’t want to do everyone like that.

You mentioned before having your own scissors. Where would you get those from?

You’d by them from a supplier, you know, people who would deliver to the salon. We all...and you, you end up using the ones that you particularly liked. For some reason, when I think back now, I can’t think of why I did, the ones I used were French, and they were curved at the end. When I think I was doing really, very straight haircuts, it didn’t quite make sense really. They were designed really I guess that, when you held the hair in your hand and cut the hair, the actual blades curl at the end, away from your hand. They were probably just designed to stop you cutting yourself I would have thought, when I think about it now. And, the scissors, I...there’s no rule about scissors, it’s purely, if they feel right and you like them, you know, aesthetically as well as how they, particularly how they feel. I’ve always used five-and-a-half-inch blade scissors. Lots of hairdressers, there was a real fashion where everyone was using four-inch or four-and-a-half-inch, tiny little things. But it really doesn’t matter, it’s just what you feel happy with.

And how long would you keep a pair of scissors?

There were places that used to sharpen them, but generally they wreck them when they sharpen them. Scissors are sort of hollow-ground so that the actual cutting blades are very sharp. I probably change my scissors now every six months, and buy another, buy another pair. And I, I think, I mean it’s pretty much always been like that.

And where do you get them from now?

I get them from a supplier, they’re German, they’re Jaguar, they’re called Jaguar scissors, Satin Plus, and they’re straight scissors, they’re a five-and-a-half-inch blade.

And, even at Smile, nearly all of them... We don’t all have the same scissors, we all just like the ones that we like. Sometimes you’ll get somebody who comes in to the salon with some new kind of scissors. Mostly they’re just... You can play anything for a pair of scissors, from about £75 up to £1,000. And, that’s, yes, some of them...yes, and there are now ceramic ones. And they’re quite... I mean if you drop them, and you drop them so that the tips of the blades fall on the floor first, they’re not going to be, you’re probably going to wreck them, you won’t be able to use them, they’re slightly buckled and then they won’t cut properly. So, you do look after your scissors, but... My scissors cost £75, and I’m very happy with them. (laughs) And I change them every six months. But, there are ones now where you keep the handles, and the blades, you can renew the blades. I think those are the ones I’m talking about that cost about £1,000, so, you’ve still got to buy new blades for them. And I don’t see them being any better than the ones I use. (laughs) It’s much more about what you do with them, rather than what they are. Yes.

And who’s at the forefront of, of these sort of new scissor designs?

In at the forefront. Yes that’s interesting. As I say, you just, what you, what you find, and what I find is that occasionally someone will come in and show you, or, you know, they’re selling them, and they’re representing whoever the company are, of their new designs really. And you sort of, look at them.

Are they, are they also German, or Japanese?

Japanese, German. You don’t see the French any more, the ones I was describing, like I used to use in the Sixties, don’t exist any more, the company, I can’t remember what they were called now. But they don’t seem to be, they’re nearly...German or Japanese. As I say, the ones I use are German, they’re called Jaguar. I can’t, I don’t even know what the names of Japanese ones are because I, you know, I’ve seen them, but I don’t see any difference.

Could you describe the kind of fittings that Leonard had?

Oh yes. OK. Yes, it’s interesting, because, if you’d came to Smile, you know, why... You...I think I described, you walked in the front door, and then there was a cloakroom, if you turned left there’d be a reception and a cloakroom, where, what most clients would do, would arrive there, there would be somebody to take their coat, after greeting the receptionist. And then they would put on a kimono type gown, you know. Much more chichi than where I’d been. And then you’d walk up the stairs to this first floor, sort of, a half landing, halfway up then onto the first floor. A very, looked like a very beautiful room. In the middle of the room would be a round sofa, and that’s where clients would sit and wait for you, which is really annoying when you have two or three of them waiting for you. (laughs) And you were late. And then, against... Leonard and Raphael had these two dressing tables that looked out onto the street, so there would be daylight behind them, and they were huge round mirrors, sort of, cream painted wood, and... I don’t know what you’d call those chairs, they had like, velvet backs, but they’d be sort of straight-backed. Incredibly, what’s the word? Non-practical. They, they were...you know, I think what they were doing probably, they weren’t using regular salon chairs, but they weren’t wonderful to sit on for a client. And then, the rest of us worked down one side, and the other side, and literally there were mirrors stuck against the wall. By the side of each mirror there would be a cupboard, a little cupboard where you put all your stuff. And the same kind of chairs that I’ve described. I’m just trying to remember how man of us worked there. I mean, there was Raphael and Leonard by the windows, and then on the side that I worked on, there would be Michael, who became Michaeljohn, and then John, who is the other half of Michaeljohn, and then myself. And to my right as I’m working against that wall, and you look down to a long sort of thin room, would be hairdryers that people sat under on both sides of the room, and people having manicures, you know, the manicure salon was a big thing as well. And on the other side, opposite where I was working, I can remember Clifford Stafford working there, he eventually, he one time was partner with John Frieda. And, Celine, the one I described, was kind of, working behind me, opposite Leonard and Raphael. Then there was another Russian hairdresser called Vanda, who was also working next to her. And then there was the other wall, I remember Clifford Stafford working there, and, who else worked there then? I’ll remember later, but... And then, you, if you were having your hair tinted, or colour, you would go upstairs again to another room, and that’s where Daniel Galvin was working, he was up there with, you know, others

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373A Page 77 as well, but he particularly. And, it, it was very smart, I can’t think of a better word than that, terribly grand, and... Again we still called people Madam; we all had to wear a suit and a tie. If it was a really hot, hot day, we had to ask Leonard if we could take our tie off.

And would he say...would he let you?

Yes, sometimes. (laughs) But it was this whole thing, you were giving out this very sort of grand image, you know. Leonard looked terribly chic, he always had all his suits made, you know, in Savile Row or whatever. And we, we all were, like, I used to have a tailor down here in the King’s Road who used to make my shirts called Mr Trimble, who in fact is very near to where Smile is now, or was. And then we’d have, when I say we, the sort of, not all of them, but, John, Michael, John and myself, we’d have shirts made by a guy called Frank Foster in Soho. So then they were fitted shirts. And we’d buy our ties from Jermyn Street, in...they were great big kipper ties. And that’s pretty much what we sort of looked like.

And what sort of fabrics and colours were your shirts?

I’ve always liked that kind of, poplin type cotton. I think...no they weren’t button- down, they were just regular collars. But of course, as soon as I left work... I also wanted those shirts to look fine without a tie, because I wouldn’t wear a tie outside. (laughs) And then later, when, in fact there was a time when we stopped wearing ties, I think I was still at Leonard’s then... No, I wasn’t. All the time I was at Leonard’s we were wearing ties, suits and ties.

What sort of, what were the ties like?

Kipper ties, I mean these huge things. I’m trying, desperately trying and remember the name, it was a sort of classic tailor in Jermyn Street.

[End of F14373 Side A] [F14373 Side B]

Yes, we used to buy our ties from Turnbull & Asser.

Were they any particular colour, or did they have a pattern?

No, I...you just looked at them how you... It was the shape of them, they were huge, they were kipper ties. Yes, so that’s pretty much what we looked like.

And what about the products at Leonard’s, was there any difference between those, and the shampoos that you had used at Leslie Green?

Not really. I think that was really pre the product thing, which became so important. There...no, I mean there were just good conditioners and good shampoos, so I...I wouldn’t even remember what they were, and I doubt whether he, as long as they worked, that he would be that bothered anyway. And most of those products would come from places like Wella, L’Oréal, companies like that, so they would be of a good standard, but, not like it is now, it’s so massive. There was...you used, still used lacquer, you know, to...most people would have a spray of lacquer on their hair. Another thing I never wanted to do. And, particularly if you’re putting your hair up in a chignon. There were still kind of setting lotions, which would, you know, gave the hair a little bit more body, but that was about it, basically. Again, you know, it’s always like, you know, products are dictated by the needs of the time. When you stop using rollers, then you need other products. But when you were putting rollers in, you needed a setting lotion. And there were...the only finishing products I can remember was like putting a sort of wax just to make the hair shiny at the end of it, to, any hair that was sticking up, you would use just to, you know, smooth the hair down a bit. But again, they were just little finishing products, mostly just wax-based products, just to do that.

And what about the actual size of the mirrors, how much of, of her sort of, head and body...

Yes.

...could the client see?

When they were sitting down, they could see their shoulders and their head basically. And that’s what you could see, you know. So... You know, one of the big things you have to learn in hairdressing, like when you’re learning, is to, you know when you look in a mirror and everything’s back to front, so, you need to...it’s one of the things I’m always saying when I’m teaching now, keep looking in the mirror. You’ve got to keep the image of what you’re doing right, so, if you keep...you need to be looking at her all the time, or him, getting that image in your mind. And you need to learn to, you talk to people in the mirror, and you...and you, you know, people find it very difficult at the beginning, because their hand would come, their right hand becomes the left hand, and so on. So you’re always... Yes, what you could see was just their head and shoulders, yes.

So how long does it take somebody to get used to that, how long did it take you?

In learning? Oh, a month, you know, a couple of months or something. You...you... More the reason you’re doing it when you’re teaching is, for them... What people tend to do when they’re learning is, they get too involved with one piece of the hair, and forget... It’s like the end of a painting, if you’re just painting and you’re painting one little flower, you’ve got to remember what the whole image is. So, the idea that you keep looking at what... You’ve got to... You mustn’t start a haircut unless you know exactly what the finished thing is, so, looking in the mirror all the time is reminding you of that image, and... And also you’re looking to see if it suits them, you know, and you’re looking in the mirror to see if one side’s the same length as the other. And just, basic things like that.

Are you left-handed or right-handed?

Right-handed. I wished, I’d love to be ambidextrous, it would be a huge advantage if you could. Again, one of the things when I’m teaching now is, is to... When you start to learn, it’s always easier doing one side than the other, because you’re either right- handed or left-handed. So, you know, I always seem to be[???]...if you...if you were to design a machine to cut hair, would be ambidextrous, you could get the same angle on each side. So, that is one of the things that does take a while to learn, that you

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373B Page 80 have to, you have to try and make yourself, even though you’re using the same hand, but you have to get the scissors in the same angle for either side, which is, difficult for me to explain to you, but that is, that is difficult when you’re learning.

And are there special left-handed scissors for left-handed...?

No, but... No no, just, doesn’t matter which hand you hold them in, whether you’re left- or right-handed. It’s just because you’re right-handed or left-handed, it’s being able to get the same angle on both sides. If you could change hands, it would be very much easier to achieve that. Sadly I can’t do that, and I’ve never met anyone who can.

How would you describe the atmosphere at Leonard’s between, you know, all the different stylists, in comparison to your experience at Leslie Green’s?

Well again, I suppose, without me realising, the Sixties was such a special time. For me, you know, to begin with I was just really delighted to be there. There were a couple of...oh, I’ve remembered one of the hairdressers I’d forgotten, a guy called Ivan, and, who actually left after about a year I think. Some of them are...yes, he was very grand, you know, used to go to the theatre every night, and, didn’t really become very friendly with him. But, there was good...I mean I was very friendly with John from Michaeljohn. And, again I suppose, like we all do, all people, you herd don’t you, you tend to like people who are like-minded, you know. It was... Again, remember that all hairdressers work, and they get paid a commission, so the busier you are, the more money you earn, and also I guess that you’d have a bit more respect from the others, kind of thing. But we were all there, all there, you know, five and half days a week, sort of working, so... It was, it was a very nice atmosphere, and I...again, I think, I didn’t realise at the time, the Sixties were so special, there was so much going on. And it was, it was suddenly, you know, you weren’t considered to be a gay hairdresser any more, it was actually quite groovy, you know, that you were doing, working with, you had famous clients, going to all the right clubs in London.

And what would they be?

The most...the one I remember the most then would be a club called Ad Lib, which was, I think it was in Piccadilly somewhere, I can’t remember exactly where, where I used to go with Cathy. And, you know, and at that time I would be friendly with people like Sandie Shaw and Cilla Black, who, Cilla Black’s still a client of mine, when she was a pop star. And you’d go there, and, yes, Bailey would be there, the Beatles would be there, or the Rolling Stones, it was very much that kind of thing. So there was a bit being seen I guess going on. But, they were different to...they weren’t grand in that sense, but they were very sort of, fashionable. And you, there would be, you know, I’d see Barbara Hulanicki there and people like that, and, who were kind of clients-cum-part of the social group, which was... Yes, it was fun, it was... Yes. I, I wouldn’t call myself a great clubber at that time, there was another one called Revolution later on, and then, you know, they, they...the fashion moved on to which place you went to. But London was very exciting, and, I was exactly the right age, I am exactly the same age as, you know, Paul McCartney or whatever. And, you know, suddenly working-class boys like myself, or indeed boys from Liverpool, you were very much part of the scene that was going on. And for me it was wonderful, because that’s, that’s what I was always interested in; my interest in fashion came from music, pop music as much as, you know, more than looking at haute couture designers. Obviously that was part of life, because we did all those fashion shows. But I can remember for instance like, like...like Cathy and I, we would be much more interested in buying French Elle, and I’d be more interested in what Bridget Bardot was wearing, or Françoise Hardy, than I would some leading fashion designer, you know. And that, that was very much what was going on in London at the time, I mean it was, it was... Without, you know, that wonderful expression, youth being wasted on the young, I didn’t realise it, but it was, when I think back now, it was a terrific time, it was... It was moving, it was really fast all the time. You know, and I was twenty-one, twenty, when I went to Leonard’s, twenty-one. So, and I was there from ’64 to ’65 – ’69, sorry, five years. And so I was in my twenties, having a, having a very nice time. (laughs) Then later I became the manager there, which was a non-job really, it was just a way of saying, OK, we appreciate you, you know, that, he opened another floor in the same house, which I kind of ran. And of course, the other big thing for me, that’s where I met Keith, Keith came and joined Leonard’s, probably about two years after me. He had been away working on boats and things. He came, actually, to do colour there. The difference from when I was with Leslie Green, I used to do colour

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373B Page 82 and I would cut people’s hair; and when you went to somewhere like Leonard’s, you specialised in one or the other, you either cut hair and you didn’t do colour, or you, you did colour and you didn’t cut hair. Daniel Galvin couldn’t cut hair, he just did colour.

And why was that, why...?

I...I... When I think back now, I’m not really sure. I mean it certainly isn’t true now, all the people that I teach at Smile, I tell them it’s important that you did both. I don’t know really how that came about, it’s just, when I think of it now, I don’t...I don’t have an explanation, but that is what you did. Certainly I was much more interested in cutting hair anyway. But it was interesting, you were asking about colour earlier. You know, there was one thing, again I’m sorry to keep using Cathy’s name, but you know, she was such a big part of my life in those times, and, all our social crowd. But she had, as I’ve described to you, this really long bob, and an incredibly long fringe, you know, which, which was ‘the look’ that we were, we were interested in. But on television, the long fringe sometimes looked like she didn’t have any eyes, if you know what I mean. So, I wanted to make, just her fringe look slightly lighter. So... And in those days, if you did highlights, they were all pretty much always, well they were, done with bleach, which made them very blond and very dry, and it changes, the hair becomes dry and it swells up. So the texture would be non-shiny any more. So I came up with the idea, I said to Daniel, ‘Look, can you...I want to just lighten Cathy’s fringe, but I don’t want to do it with bleach. Can you just do it with a tint?’ He got, really got the ’ump with me, went to complain to Leonard that I was telling him what, how to do his job. Anyway, we did it. And of course the difference when you use a tint is, the hair still remains shiny, and it...but it doesn’t lift it blond, it just lifts it maybe one or two shades. So, that’s how lowlights came about. (laughs) It was actually, you know, how they came about. And it was, things like that, when you were...because you weren’t using...you wanted the hair to look shiny, and I was desperately trying to stop making hair look set, but wanted to get a different effect. And so, that’s pretty much how ideas would come up. Yes, then, and I’ve always found...the reason I say I’m more interested in street fashion, it also goes too, with work colleagues, you...you know, sometimes little ideas just come up from each other, when you were trying to achieve... I mean, scrunched hair, which was really sort of

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373B Page 83 fashionable a few years ago, do you remember that? When you just, you didn’t use a brush at all, you just used your fingers to scrunch it up while you’re drying the hair. That just came about from one day sort of working, and you, you, whilst rough-drying the hair, before you...we had a special way of blow-drying hair, and which I’ll talk to you about later, which is to do with Smile, something we invented. You think, oh that looks quite nice, I don’t need to put a brush in it, you know. Those little things come out. And then you, then you need a different kind of products for that kind of thing. And that’s where I’ve always found, I’ve never... You know, you do get some wonderful designers in the years, like in the Sixties Courrèges particularly, who did bring out something new. But I think mostly ideas come from people just working, particularly in hairdressing, rather than... That’s what I meant earlier when we were talking about somebody making a hairstyle famous, it was never in my experience the person who was wearing that was the first one to have it, it was somebody quite different, you know, or, or, somebody had done. It’s just that that person, famous person had picked it up, and it became their look kind of thing, and made... Lady Di’s the biggest example of that, I mean, pff, we were doing that haircut when she first came to notoriety at least three years before, but it was like, ‘Oh it’s Lady Di, this is her new haircut.’ (laughs) But, so... Sorry, back to Leonard’s. So it was, it was a lovely time there, it was a terrific time, I really enjoyed my time there. And, after about three months I was doing it, within a year I was busy as I was back at Leslie Green. And...but we still used to have standing, I had standing appointments every Friday, the same people, and every Saturday morning. Yes, and I was busy, I was sort of, doing it. But the difference was, I was doing, still not completely, but I would say, fifty per cent of the work I was doing was what I wanted to do, you know, which was lovely, which I would never have been doing back in, in, at Leslie Green. Mm.

Why do you think Daniel Galvin was upset?

God! I shouldn’t be saying this, should I? (laughs)

[inaudible]

It was... I... Oh, God! I, I like Daniel very much, don’t get me...he’s an extremely good, and very successful...he’s a very very good technician and very good at what he

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/04 F14373B Page 84 does, and he’s, you know, made a lot more money than I have. (laughs) Probably just because, maybe he hadn’t thought of it, and, you know, we would be, again I guess when we would say to him...he would be expected, he would be the one who would be expected to suggest a colour for somebody, and not knowing it at that time, without me realising it, I’ve always thought that, you know, to do someone’s hair with colour is really to enhance the haircut, not the other way round. You know, you do it for the right reasons. I don’t honestly believe I knew it then consciously, but I think I’ve always known it without understanding it. You know, so, to achieve a certain look, the colour has to be, to go along with the haircut. And if it doesn’t, it doesn’t look right at all, in my opinion. And, just at that time, as I said to you, I didn’t want...Cathy’s hair was amazingly shiny, and that was the whole thing about it; to put bleached highlights on it and make it look dry in the front would have been hideous. So, it just suddenly occurred to me, why not do it with a tint? And I don’t think he’d thought about it. Yet he claims he invented it, and it’s not true. (laughs) Now I’m turning into a bitchy bloody hairdresser. I don’t mean that. And, he is wonderful, believe me, he’s excellent, I mean he had a huge clientele, he’s always been really good, and he...there were...people still used to over-process the hair sometimes, you know, have too many highlights. There were still a few perms going on, and, you know, he, he was very good at... I mean if you had a problem with colour, he could put it right, you know, he was very good. They were all good there, it was a terrific time. Some of them didn’t...it was just really a question of, we all work slightly different. I think, since Smile, because we train all our own people, we all work very much similar. You know, Michael had this unbelievably sort of rich clientele, he’d do, generally older women, I don’t mean old, but older, much more sophisticated, that was his thing. He was brilliant and putting people’s hair up in a chignon and doing wonderful hairdos. And I don’t know what Michaeljohn’s like now, but I imagine it’s probably still like that. Which is another thing about Smile, when we get to it, you know, in my opinion, people like Michaeljohn, John Frieda, Nicky Clarke, all they’ve done is open another Leonard’s, whereas we did something completely different, it’s nothing like Leonard’s at all. But it was terrific though, because, for me, I could learn something from everybody there, you know. I’m trying to give you an example, and I can’t particularly. But it was...I wasn’t standing over, we weren’t standing over each other, but you could see what was going on, and it was, it’s still the same now, it’s

Would Daniel as a colourist have been paid the same?

I don’t honestly know. Whatever it was, it would have been some form of a commission, you know. It’s...that’s how it is. I mean, if you think about it, I always say to people, it’s not me, if you work for me, it’s not me that pays your wages, it’s the clients that come to you, they’re really... You know, the money to pay them has to come from somewhere. So obviously the more clients you do entitles you to more salary. So I, what their deal was, I’ve no idea. And I can’t quite remember what my own was in fact, but it wasn’t a third, it was, you earned x amount and then you got ten per cent over a certain amount, and then if you went over another amount you got twenty per cent, and so on. You know, we...we were all busy people there, and, you know, particularly Michael, particularly Daniel, and particularly myself, so, that was what it was about. And we were all... As I said, my little slot, I have younger people, which is great, it’s lovely; I still...and then I had all my pop world people, and sort of, you know, fashion designers like Barbara Hulanicki who... It was lovely. And, you know, I think, they came to Leonard’s through me, through my connection with Cathy initially, whereas other people brought other things there, you know, like, Michaeljohn had this incredibly titled lady clientele who went there for that very sophisticated, fashionable, you know, good stuff, but not what I was about.

But, but there was no sort of hierarchy between, say, the stylists and the colourists?

No, I don’t...no, I don’t think so. It was just that, you know, as I say, you specialised in one or the other. I didn’t even know that when I went to work there, and I thought I would be carrying on like I used to, doing both. And when I think about it now, the conversation I’ve just had about with Daniel Galvin, I probably knew more about the colour thing because I’d been doing it for five years, as well as the other stuff. I can’t...probably, John probably didn’t know how to do tinting, or, or John Frieda or... Well John Frieda was a junior then. Whereas I’d had, I knew about colouring, because I’d been doing it for five years. Which is why the idea came, let’s do it with

And, what were...you say being a manager was a non-job. There must have been something that you were doing...

No, I suppose, I suppose I’m not being absolutely honest. (laughs) It was my...he...it was very busy there, and he opened this other floor, above the tinting room in fact, so you had to come up again, there was a lift there as well. And I was made manager of that floor. And, I mean there was point where it was terribly grand there, because Leonard used to live in Belgrade Square, and once a month...I don’t know how long this went on for, not very long actually, probably about six months, maybe a year, he would have a meeting with, we would have a meeting with him, because we were managers. So there would be Daniel Galvin there, myself, Daniel was manager of the colouring department, and... Who else was there? This must have been after Michael and John had left I think, because they’d opened Michaeljohn. Yes it was. And then there was another guy called Clifford, Clifford Stafford, who was managing a floor where Leonard worked. I say, when I say a non-job, I mean I didn’t hire people, I didn’t fire people. It had been my job to make sure that that floor ran properly. But that wasn’t very difficult, I mean, it wasn’t... It didn’t really teach me any managerial skills as far as opening my own salon, you know, I didn’t learn those anywhere. But it was, I suppose... I don’t even think I got a salary increase for becoming a manger, I’m sure I didn’t, it was still the same situation, you, you earned commission on what you did. And the other thing I did, when I did, working there and I did photographic work for Vogue. And that was a lovely time too, it was, you know, we’d have models like Jean Shrimpton I’d be doing, and another lady, beautiful lady called Celia Hammond. And they were nearly always for Young Idea Vogue, the whole idea was, Marit Allen was the fashion editor of that, was for, you know, young people. So that was nice for me too. I didn’t even get paid for that. So, it cost me to do that, because, Leonard didn’t compensate me for not being in the salon. But I just wanted to do it at the time, sort of, it was a good thing to do and I liked photographic for... I didn’t...not what I wanted to do in the end, but it was nice to do for a while.

[end of session]

[End of F14373 Side B] [F14374 Side A]

.....Russell, the 12th...

Of...

It’s the 10th of December...(laughs)...’03.

OK, thanks.

Thank you.

Could you just tell me what it was about doing the photographic work that you didn’t really like?

I wouldn’t say I didn’t really like... I enjoyed doing it, but, I definitely preferred people coming in and cutting their hair and... There’s a great joy in making, in making someone happy cutting their hair, and giving them a new haircut or whatever. I enjoyed doing the photographic work a lot, I think, as I mentioned, Celia Hammond particularly. And in those days there was no make-up artist, so, the model usually did her own make-up. Celia had a wonderful way of painting talcum powder under her eyes, if she had any dark rims around, to get rid of them. And also, occasionally they would do their hair themselves a bit. I learnt a massive amount about how, just women doing their own hair, what they like, and what looks good on them, just little tricks that models like knew which is really good.

Like what?

Just combing their hair in a way that looked good on them. Some people are really good at doing their own hair, you know. And later, our history became, doing haircuts that people looked after themselves, so... So I learnt a huge amount that way from, from doing that. A lot of it was financial as well, I mean, as I said earlier, we

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/05 F14374A Page 88 didn’t get paid, so, if I was doing three or four days a week photographic, I was, my income was severely impaired. And I can’t remember the history now, I particularly worked for Young Idea Vogue with Marit, and the whole look was supposed to be Young Idea, not, not quite so haute couture type thing. And as well, getting the publicity from the magazine meant that people were asking for me at the salon, so I became much more busier there really. I continued to do it, but much more spasmodically. And it was really nice, you know, really good photographers, David, Barry Lategan, Montgomery. And also, I think it was about that time that I started doing Patsy Putnam’s hair, David Putnam’s wife, and that sort of, got me into other things as well. I mean I did David Putnam’s ever first TV commercial, so, I did a bit of that as well, which was, which was filming.

What was that, what, can you...?

It was an advert for Contac cold pills. We did it at the Roundhouse. They built this huge set with a black shiny dancing floor, six girls who had to look like Jean Harlow, so I had six wigs to make all wavy and curly. And then they... And a huge set, which looked like a massive Coca-Cola sign set which said ‘Contac’. And they sang a song to, you know, ‘Button up your overcoat when the wind is free, take Contac, you belong to me,’ or something crap like that. But it’s...it was fun. Putnam, Putnam then was looking after pretty much all the photographers, you know, Baileys and all the rest of them, so... It was his first TV commercial. And we were there, I think it took two weeks to film, we’d be there at six o’clock in the morning. When I say ‘we’, I got one of the other hairdressers, whose name I can’t remember now from Leonard’s to help me do it, because it needed more. But then of course, make-up would be done, they’d start shooting about eight o’clock, and by then I’d done all the hair, and, and then you’d sit round on the set all day long, I thought, I don’t think I could do this all the time. And I’ve always preferred working in the salon, people coming in, and doing their hair really. But it was, it was...it was nice to do. And I, I can’t remember how long I did... I mean I did photographic work, I worked for 19 magazine, I did some actual modelling for them as well as the hair. (laughs)

So what...

Only one shot.

What did you model?

But these were from, you know, clients coming in. You know, they were people who editors of 19 magazine at the time, and, and, you know, so I was going towards that sort of more street fashion again I guess, more than sort of Vogue. And Marit I think moved on, I think she stopped doing Vogue, and that’s probably when that sort of stopped. And as well I was getting, I was very busy working then, you know, you were sort of...and that was a way for me to earn some money as well. Mm.

And was the, was working for Putnam doing commercials, was that well paid?

Oh yes. Commercials was very well paid, I mean... And in fact, a lot of hairdressers did go over to that, you know, you could earn much more money doing that than working in the salon. And I got paid quite a lot of money for that. (laughs) But I...it really is sitting on a set all day long, and I don’t know how people do it. I mean mostly hair and make-up, you do first thing in the morning. I’m sure it’s still the same now. And then you are there, you have to be on hand, you know, to make sure, looking in the camera with the director to make sure that their hair is right, and always being there in case it isn’t. The way we got, that one particularly was a bit of a problem because, the girls had these, this Jean Harlow look, and there were six of them, and there were six blond wigs that they were wearing. So I’d have to make sure that they stayed in whilst they danced all the time. So... I would actually do them sometimes the night before, you know, on wig stands, and put rollers in it and, and then I’d lacquer it to death for the set, so they didn’t move really. Horrible, solid, you know, sort of, hair, but, for the shot, it was OK. And of course, doing session work is a completely different skill. It’s not, particularly with models, I mean I never actually cut Celia Hammond’s hair, or, I’d work with Jean Shrimpton, but I didn’t actually cut their hair, but you had to dress it to make the look right for that session and those clothes. So you did all sorts of things, like backcombing it maybe, use products like lacquer to make it stay into place. And again, going back to myself, it wasn’t really, I always preferred cutting people’s hair, it was about how, for me how the hair fell into place rather using rollers and things like that. So, the Young Idea thing was good,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/05 F14374A Page 90 because that was the look for that. But, going back to the commercial with Putnam, I wouldn’t have liked to spend my whole life just dressing hair, sitting on a, on a, on a film set or something. It is a completely different skill, and probably not the best thing I do. So... But, you know, the ones I did were sort of...of what I did as well, I’d got asked by the right people. There were, as I say, mostly the session work I did, you know, Marit was a client, and, you know, I do work...well, like that Rave magazine that you’ve just seen, that came through Cathy, and that kind of thing. So... My session work was, was that really. But I’d always wanted to go back to the salon and sort of cut people’s hair really, I think I enjoy that much more.

So, when you said that Putnam was looking after the photographers, what did you mean?

Oh Putnam had an agency, you know, like four photographers, and he represented, he was their agent. David Montgomery, you name it, Bailey, pretty much all of that lot of the Sixties Putnam was looking after. And from there he went into TV commercials, and then, you know, as we all know, on to films and everything. So...

How do you, or how did you attach the wigs to the models’ hair, I mean was that a...?

Well they, those particular six girls were dancers basically, so, most of them had long hair, so what you’d do is, you’d wrap the hair round their head if you like, if you like put it in a knot at the back, but try and keep it as flat to the head as possible. And then these wigs were elasticated basically, so you just pulled them on over, and then combed them so that they didn’t look like a wig. But they did of course. (laughs) But for that kind of shot, it was fine, I mean it was over the top, it was supposed to be glamorous, silly. Wigs generally, if you used them on session work, which we did sometimes, I mean we certainly used hairpieces, you’d try to use, say somebody had a fringe, you’d try to use their own hair for that. And, the most successful were what we used to call three-quarter wigs, so they would start about three inches back from the front of your hairline. And then you’d use your own hair at the front, so it looked much more natural. Yes, a lot of them were made like that. And we, I mean, the hairpiece thing for the clients, well and for session work as well, were usually made so that you could put hair up. Or, you could wear it down as well. And they were,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/05 F14374A Page 91 they were made on a round base, about six inches round, with human hair mostly, they were very expensive to make. There was a guy that used to come to Leonard’s from Wig Creations they were called, so they, he would come along and take, we’d give him a cutting of the clients’ hair, and they would match it up, the colour, so it looked very much the same. And then there was a look in the Sixties where people had flick-ups, so...you know flick-ups? Shoulder length hair, and the hair flicking up literally, turning out. Still straight. And a lot of people at that time would put the hairpiece on the crown, I’m talking about, wear it down, so obviously you looked like you had masses of thick hair, then you take the top of the hair up and join it into the false hair at the back. So when, when you went on a session, photographic session, I would take with me some hairpieces, in case I needed them. But what was nice with Young Idea Vogue, the whole look was supposed to be, you know, for young twenty- year-old, twenty-five-year-olds, and it was again back to what I’ve always liked, more street fashion rather than haute couture, you know, Chanel suits and, and that sort of stuff. But you had to have those things on a session. So, a lot of it meant that you were combing hair all the time, backcombing it, just to get that look for that shot. Which was, I enjoyed doing, but not as much as sort of cutting someone’s hair.

And, where...do you know where all this hair came from for wigs?

I’m not absolutely sure. I mean most wigs now, pretty much all of them, are synthetic. I think years ago, human hair used to come from convents when people used to go in and have all their hair cut off. Because when you make a hairpiece or a wig, you lose a third of the length of the hair just making the base. So i.e., if a hair is, if the hair is, sort of using old terms, one foot long, it would end up being nine inches long after, you’d lose a third of it just making the base. I never did wig-making, but... But, there was a massive sort of business at that time in the late Sixties, middle Sixties, of women having their hair put up in chignons for dinner parties and that kind of thing. And we all obviously did it there. But again, more and more and more, I was doing more of the sort of street fashion thing, you know, I much preferred it when people like Barbara Hulanicki came in and I gave her a haircut at that time. But it was, great hairdressing, but...and we all did it, but all the time I’m thinking, now I’d like to cut this, you know, rather than put it up. (laughs)

Do you ever get clients now coming in with wigs?

Occasionally. You know, sometimes, someone’s getting married, and, I always find that fascinating. Pff. Sometimes I think people...why do you want to put your hair up, and, you’re going to be stuck with this photograph for the rest of your life, and it’s not looking quite like you. (laughs)

Do they take your advice?

Mostly. But... Yes, again, you can still put it up and still make it not look too formal. But, but sometimes you need to do a formal look, and it’s good. I think you need to know how to do it, you know, or, I needed to know particularly then how to do it. But I’ve always...about ninety per cent of the time you look at a photograph and think, why have you...it’s like, it’s like someone’s getting married and you’re just sort of, dressing up to go to a party or something. And people still want to do it. I’ve always found that amazing. I didn’t do it. (laughs)

Well I’ll ask you about your, your wedding.

Oh God! OK. Yes.

But before that, when you were doing sot of, photographic work and commercial work, were you asked for your advice about what the hair should be like, or were you directed?

No, what would usually happen would be, if we, say it was Marit doing Young Idea Vogue think, we, I would arrive, usually before the model had come, and Marit would be there, and she had a lovely assistant called Mandy Clapperton, who later became an editor I believe. And we would look through the clothes, which would be in the dressing room, you know, on a rack, and she’d say, ‘We’re shooting this, this and this, you know, and what you do think, what sort of hair should we do? Should it be up, should it be down?’ And so before the model had arrived, we’d decided roughly what the look would be.

And would you know who the model was who was...?

Yes, or she would tell me when I arrived. There were some other models, I’m sorry, I can’t remember their name, but probably four or five that we did. Celia mostly, I don’t know why, I think, Celia and I got on well and it was a nice day on the set, and, that kind of thing. Because, in that situation, if you’re not getting on, it’s quite tricky, you know, the models not enjoying the way you’re doing her hair or something. Sometimes models in those days, there was another thing I didn’t enjoy particularly, I always used to think, look, you’re a model and we’re just doing this look. It might not be the way you wear your hair, but it’s the look for this shot. ‘Oh you can’t...you know, I don’t want my hair as flat as that.’ And I think, it’s for this shot, you know. Celia wasn’t like that, Jean Shrimpton wasn’t like that, but some of the lesser ones, yes, more about what they looked like in the picture, rather than... Of course, you want them to look wonderful, but... The important thing was to give the image, you know, to capture that moment. I mean I still now love looking at black and white photographs from the Sixties, I think, they say, more than a film I think, just, just catching that moment. And that’s what good photography, the right hair, the right make-up, it does, should say a message, it should say that time. So, we’d look at the clothes. And, Marit particularly would know anyway, she, she was incredibly good as a fashion editor. She would have seen the clothes before me anyway and was much more in touch with the designers, so she’d have a, usually, she’d have a very strong idea of what we did. So, it was, she was very good, we’d all sit and talk and say, ‘OK, let’s do this.’ And then as I said, if I... So, it would be, say, slightly more sophisticated than if I did...I did quite a lot of shoots for 19 magazine, which, 19 says it all, that was younger again. And I probably didn’t use any hairpieces for that, it would be haircuts and just making the hair look good for... But the thing was, we rarely...it’s different now, because, we’d rarely...we’d never wash and do their hair. If... I know, I had an arrangement, say, with somebody like Celia where, if we were going to put her hair up, I’d say to her, ‘Look, don’t wash your hair that day,’ because when hair’s just been washed, it becomes very silky and fly-away, and it’s quite difficult to put up and make it look right. So we’d know that if we were doing a session like that, and we were going to put her hair up the next day, she’d know, because we’d had the conversation before, that she didn’t wash her that morning, and she’d arrive with it un-washed sort of thing. Sometimes vice versa, you know. And

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/05 F14374A Page 94 then, what I’d do in the dressing room after we’d got the clothes together, I would then do the hair. That would averagely take about an hour. And then, Marit and Mandy Clapperton popping in and out with, ‘Oh great, that’s wonderful, let’s start.’ If you work with Bailey, he wouldn’t allow you in the studio while he was taking the shots, so... I don’t know quite what went on, I did their hair, ‘OK, here she is.’ (laughs) Mostly then, you go in the studio where they’re taking the shots, and as I’m sure you know, photography is about getting the lighting right, that’s the big thing. So that would take quite a while usually, well, to get the shot right. And then, I would then, mostly with, in my hand I’d have a brush and a comb and maybe some lacquer and some hairpins, and I would stand behind the photographer to make sure everything’s OK. Some of them would say, I would say to some of them, ‘Can I just look through the camera before you shoot?’ and...because in the camera, it picks up every loose hair, so, to make sure that it was OK. And then, the shots would go. Then, change of clothes. Again make sure the hair was good. Again behind the camera. We’d usually take all day to do, I think, I think Marit would talk about doing six pages or something like that, so it could be as many as twelve different dresses or, or outfits. And then we’d usually wrap about five o’clock or six o’clock or something. Yes it was fun, it was, it was nice. But it was about combing hair, or backcombing it, or shaping it to make it look right, you know. I mean there are ways with someone with long hair, with the right kind of haircut, you can put it up for a shot, and it looks like she’s got a short haircut. And, it’s, it’s a really good skill, you know. Sometimes when I go and see a film, and I look at people’s hair, sometimes it’s terrible, but sometimes, it’s very clever. Especially the ones who are doing period pieces, you know, Thirties, Twenties, or even more, back even more, it’s...they’re, some of them are excellent, they do some really good stuff. But again, you know, I would be... Some of the models would be, would, after a session, come in to me to have a haircut, which is great. And, I, like...like that that wonderful saying, youth being wasted on the young. I don’t think any of us realised what a special time the Sixties was, but, it was a time when people like me, you know, a cockney kid, could suddenly be accepted, people like Bailey who became a wonderful photographer is also from that sort of world, and we were allowed to, we were finally OK and we didn’t have to speak with a plum in our mouth, and, you know, it was exciting.

What would you do after a shoot like that?

God! what did I used to do in those days? By then, I used to, I mentioned to you that Keith had come to Leonard’s to work as well. He and I and his brother shared a flat in Putney, so, I used to drive in to work. You could park your car in those days. (laughs) There was a massive car park under, just off Park Lane. So, I’d either be going out, you know, with a girl, well there were clubs of course that we used to go to. I think I mentioned the Ad Lib to you, but there were lots of others. Yes, pick up the car, go home. There was a wonderful place in the Fulham Road called the Hungry Horse, where you could pick up homemade pies which were fantastic. I think I was still...yes, I was still going out with Cathy in those days as well, so I used to see a lot of her. I’ve always liked films. But we were there, you know, every morning, nine o’clock, back at Leonard’s, and, finish about six o’clock. And, I became very busy, I mean, I would often do sort of like, twenty clients a day. And, you haven’t got much time to...your lunch is, grabbed a sandwich and you just sort of, working in between. So, the session work in a way was much more peaceful in that sense, you were doing one person’s hair, but I found it slow, I didn’t like the sitting around waiting, you know, for photographs to take, it takes a different kind of attitude to, you know...

And what would you wear when you went to do session work?

Always in those days, we had to wear a suit and a tie. I’m not sure if I mentioned that to you, you know, having suits made.

But did you for session work?

Oh for session work, no, I’d take my jacket off and take my tie off, and just be, shirt, would be much more relaxed. I mean you weren’t...you weren’t giving out this image that, you know, I think I told you, we were supposed to call all the clients Madam at Leonard, and, ‘Good afternoon Madam,’ ‘Goodbye Madam,’ you know, and, and, that was still going on. It was gradually changing. Later at Leonard’s we didn’t wear ties at all. No, it was much more relaxed. And everyone who’s there, you know, the people who work in the studio, just had their jeans on and a jumper. People like Bailey, you know, wouldn’t, certainly wouldn’t wear a tie. (laughs) Yes, it was, it was more relaxed.

And what sort of, if any, refreshments would you have on, on a session shoot?

Oh, right, that was different everywhere you went. We would stop for lunch, and usually it was something...some of the studios had a bit of a canteen, so... But generally it would be some sort of cold buffet lunch, or even a sandwich. There was one photographer I used to work for called Ron Traeger, who sadly died, wonderful photographer, again that was for Vogue, I think that was with Mandy Clapperton I did most of those sessions with, and he lived, I think it was in Glebe Place in, off the King’s Road. So you would actually go to his house and the studio was in his house. And he had this wonderful wife, and sadly I can’t remember her name, who would, we’d have cooked lunch, that was amazing. We all sit round the table together, that was... But that was rare, you’d just sort of, usually it would be a cold buffet thing. And again, if you, if we...if there was a lot of clothes to shoot, and often that did happen, we’d just grab a sandwich, and we’d just keep going. And, I think with Marit, I’m not sure, some of the sessions we...well we did actually do on the street. So, the photographs were much more, the idea was to give an image in the street of people walking along, more natural things. And again that’s why I was there, because, more interested in that anyway. And then we’d probably eat a sandwich wherever we were.

And what was, what was in sandwiches in those days?

Oh God! Oh, probably ham sandwich, you know. I don’t think any of us were thinking about health food. (laughs) Yes, a cup of tea, ham sandwich, you know. As I say, when you went to Ron Traeger, you’d have a proper lunch. Yes, I...that’s been my life anyway at that time, because, hairdressers very rarely had lunch. Going out to lunch for me is very very rare, even now I don’t really like it. It just seems to break up the day, you know, I’d rather keep going.

So what do you have for breakfast then?

Oh, didn’t eat breakfast. (laughs) No, I don’t think I ate breakfast. Get up, have a coffee, rush into work, and off you went, you know, and then grab, grab a sandwich at

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/05 F14374A Page 97 lunchtime. And, at Leonard’s, there was a person who used to make teas and coffees, sandwiches, for the clients, so, I would eat one of those for my lunch.

And what sort of coffee did you have?

I think it was, not filter coffee, I think it was, you know, stuff out of a jar, you know, instant coffee.

[End of F14374 Side A] [F14374 Side B]

You mentioned that Vidal Sassoon’s haircuts had sort of particular names, and became a sort of trademark. But when you were doing magazine work, were you ever asked to do, you know, specific Sassoon type haircuts?

Well, again, depending what the look was, what the clothes were. And always, I think we mentioned this before, there’s always been a history of, Mary Quant was famous for her haircut, and then, I can remember there was another one called a Purdy haircut, that ring a bell to you? So, if someone on a session was trying to give you an idea of what the look was, they might well say, ‘Yes, you know, we want her, we want her to look, sort of Purdy type haircut,’ or, putting hair up. But not...they were...it’s the press that gave them names I think. I don’t think we ever sat round and said, such-and-such a haircut with a name, you know, number one, two, three haircut. And of course, when you were doing people’s hair, you, again, one of the reasons I didn’t work at Sassoon was, I didn’t like that idea that you just... You need to adapt a look to make it suit that person. And again, for me, it was one of the reasons I like cutting people’s hair, and working in the, in the salon, was, you...it’s very...it’s a wonderful service, to make somebody happy, and... And also, you got different kind of hair to work with, if someone’s got curly hair you’ve got to take that into consideration, if they want their hair looking straight. And just, you know, everyone’s got a different shape face. So you needed to...that, for me, that’s always been the skill of making somebody look good. Just... I’ll never forget, when I was doing all the sort of, people like Sandie Shaw, Cathy McGowan, they all had very straight hair, you know, with a fringe, and variations of that. I remember my dad once watching Ready

Steady Go! and said, ‘Do you cut her hair?’ talking about Sandie Shaw. I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘You haven’t done much with that, have you?’ (laughs) But... Because it was straight, and it was a haircut. But, what people wouldn’t realise is, it’s just very subtle things, like for instance, how wide do you cut the fringe, is very important in that kind of look, to how it makes someone look. You know, where the hair that was straight was hanging down into your face, it needs to cut your face, not cut your face but frame your face at the right place. So, the width of the fringe would make it come closer to the face, or wider to the face. And then when you get into layering hair, where, you know, where you put, where you take the weight out of the haircut or where you leave it in, to get the right shape to the head. And I suppose, I’ve always enjoyed that more than, you know, achieving a look by backcombing it, or dressing it. And later, when we come to talk about opening Smile, because we were the first unisex salon, part of, but also, when we opened Smile we refused to put rollers in anyone’s hair. So even more then, you had to be aware of how to, to make...do the haircut so it fell in place and people would look after it themselves. And we’d actually tell them how to do that. And then develop this way of drying it with round brushes, which we’ll probably talk about later.

And, I think, for future generations, could you, could you say what a Purdy haircut is...

OK.

...and what for you was, or is, or was, distinctive about Mary Quant’s hair.

I think, well Mary Quant, you know, is synonymous with the Sixties. Suddenly you weren’t having these big hair dos any more. Hair was to look shiny, everyone was terribly skinny, you know, tight clothes. And, I just think, like a lot of people, she, she had the perfect look for the time. She had the right hair, dead straight, and if you cut it into this...very geometric shapes. It was saying, we don’t want this big fluffy curly, you know, backcombed hairdos which Teasy-Weasy did in the Fifties, you know. And, so, she just looked exactly right for that time. You know, what I find interesting then and now is, if you picked up most magazines then, let’s talk about Vogue, because that was what I was doing quite a lot of work with, there was a big

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/05 F14374B Page 99 section of it which had haute couture, for the very smart woman, she would probably I suppose, I don’t know, be thirty and was wearing all the labels. And then you had a whole load of younger pictures like Young Idea Vogue which Jean Shrimpton did, but people really wanted to look like Jean Shrimpton. So you had a picture in a magazine, and you, people on the street looked like that. Sometimes now, you see some of the sort of, high fashion magazines, I never see anybody looking like that walking around, you know, with... And when I see pictures of sort of, film premiers now, I mean they...well most of them aren’t wearing much any more, and they all look like hookers, with sort of... But the Sixties I think was, suddenly all people, like myself, and, Cathy we’ve talked about, Barbara Hulanicki, were actually making these clothes and people were taking pictures of them, and they looked like that, they looked, they wanted to look like that. And, that was always my influence more than... It was nice to do, put people’s hair up, but I never felt that that was really my thing. A lot of that went on at Leonard’s, a huge amount, you know, I think I’ve said earlier where a client would come in, have her hair down one day; come in the next day and put the hairpiece on, dressed up for an evening, backcombed, put up in a chignon. Terribly, it was excellent work, and... But I gradually more and more, was doing more and more of the haircuts and, that people in the pop world would, you know, more come to me, they didn’t want to look like that anyway. You know, Barbara always used to say, ‘I love coming to Smile,’ I think I’ve said this before, ‘but I hate going in because I feel I’ve got to get dressed up.’

You mean Leonard’s?

Yes. But, you know... So I was doing the ones who wanted their hair cut really. So, I think that was why the session work was enjoyable, but not particularly what I wanted to do.

But, sorry, what was...if you had to, as I’m asking you to, to describe Mary Quant’s haircut in owrds...

Oh, that’s right.

...and the other one, a Purdy.

The Purdy one.

What...

They were similar. I’m trying to remember the actress’s name who made the Purdy haircut famous. I think she’s the one who’s in Ab Fab now, what’s her name?

Joanna Lumley?

Yes. Thank you very much. (laughs) I didn’t do her hair, but I think she came to Leonard’s, I’m fairly sure she did. It was a short haircut, similar to Mary Quant’s, cut in at the back. And a huge heavy fringe coming from the crown right the way forward, cut round your ears, cut in at the back. And, it was a really nice haircut, one I really enjoyed doing, that would have been me definitely. Mary Quant’s hair was, possibly more geometric, but that was slightly longer, you know, covering her ears. Again, cut in at the back. And, certainly what I liked about it, that those kind of haircuts took a lot of skill, I mean, technically they had to be absolutely correct, which was nice. Sassoon did it very well, and as did Leonard. I can’t...I don’t now how else to describe it. It was shiny, it wasn’t over processed, you certainly couldn’t perm hair like that, or bung Carmen rollers in it to get a look like that. But a lot of people would have a version of that, but, you still had to do a bit of backcombing on the top to make it a bit higher, that was the kind of thing, OK, all right, fine. (laughs) And that was still going on. I mean my average sort of clients in those days, as I say, more and more the pop thing was happening too, but, I would have more sophisticated, wealthy clients, and you would be putting rollers in their hair. So I’d be working on one client and having three people under the dryer, basically, kind of all day long. And in those days, you did clients not...now I only do, see my clients when they want their hair cut or their colour done. So, averagely, once every month, six weeks. I had standing appointments, the same people came on Friday and Saturday, I was booked up way ahead, the same people who came in who... So you would, you were setting their hair. Even though the end result was straight and shiny, it was still a bit fuller and, you know, you’d still do a little bit of backcombing.

Do you still now, is Saturday still your busiest day?

Yes, it still is. It probably is for most hairdressers I would think. Yes, it’s odd, which are the busy days. Monday still seems to be an odd day, it isn’t the busiest day. Tuesday is an amazingly busy day, so is Thursday and so is Saturday, I don’t know why. I’m told now the big night out in town is on Thursday, not Friday any more. I don’t know. (laughs) But yes, Saturdays, people aren’t working, it’s, you know, a lot of our clients now are working people. I mean, if we go back to Leonard’s, which we’re talking about now, a lot of those clients were not...they were sort of, wealthy housewives who weren’t working really, who traditionally would go to their hairdresser’s every week at least and have their hair done. Along with that, you had, you know, fashion designers, quite a lot of actresses and actors, who work sometimes, you know, and didn’t others.

So has that affected your opening hours here at Smile, are they different in any way to what they were at Leonard’s?

At Leonard’s, we used to do a five-and-a-half-day week, so we’d, on Saturday, you’d finish at lunchtime. When we began Smile in ’69, we opened, we were open six days a week. But I think that...when I think about it now, the question you asked me earlier, probably the bulk of business at Leonard’s at that time would be in the week from these very sort of more wealthy women. Saturday would be the sort of younger ones again who were probably working in the week. But, just kind of tradition that one finished at lunchtime. So when we opened Smile in ’69, we were doing more working people anyway, and we needed to accommodate them, and Saturday was one of the big days they could come in.

So, but, the actual hours when you would open and close, what were those?

We’d begin at nine o’clock...

The first appointment at nine?

Yes. And, I think the last appointment used to be about five and finish around six, if you were on time. Could be 6.30, seven o’clock. (laughs) That’s the, that was the night...it is a nightmare now even for hairdressers, if you get behind it’s drag. You know, if someone comes in late, you can’t really say, ‘I can’t do it,’ so you try and do them and people are waiting. I’m sure I said earlier, I’m sure, the amount of times I’ve said ‘I’m sorry I’ve kept you waiting’ must be, a thousand, million times.

And what time do you open and close now?

Now we start at 9.30 and we finish at 6.30, ish, you know, it depends. If you go into hairdressing, you know, you’re not going to say, ‘I will finish at 6.30, I will finish at seven o’clock.’ You hope you do. And, well certainly what we do with our staff, if it’s, someone’s cancelled, they’re not busy late in the evening[???], then they would leave earlier, you know. But you would be expected to, you know, work late if you have to.

Can I ask you, because in a way you haven’t talked about leaving home and, you know, living away from home.

When I first went to Leonard’s in ’64 I was still at home, and I explained to you, you know, I had a massive drop in my salary. I think that only lasted for about six months and I was getting quite busy. I left home to move into a flat with Keith and his brother who I mentioned when I was twenty-one I think, yes. And, you know, being one of six kids and from my kind of background, I was the only child that did leave home before they got married. Oh I couldn’t wait to, you know, have my own space, and, freedom really, it was really nice. Yes.

So what did your, what did your family think then when you said you were leaving?

Oh my mother was mortified that I was leaving home. (laughs) She soon got used to it. But for years, we, we’d always have to go home, all of us, for Sunday lunch. If you didn’t arrive home for Sunday lunch, it was trouble, you know. So, I would for years go home on a Sunday, with my two brothers, take my dad down the pub for a drink, and then be back home for the, you know, traditional sort of, Sunday lunch.

And my lifestyle then would be, I’d be out pretty much every evening in the week, maybe out to eat, or, to a club or, going to see a film as we mentioned. Saturday night used to be sort of crash-out night, because, just too many late nights in the week. And then I’d get up, and drive down to have lunch, and be back in the evening again really. She, she soon got used to that, and it was fine. So, I would see her every Sunday, and my family.

Did you know that she would find it difficult?

That she was finding it difficult?

Would find it difficult, when you told her.

Oh yes. (laughs)

Did you have to work up to telling her?

Yes, I mean I think I had to understand, probably didn’t at the time, but... That again was different in the Sixties, I mean I, I think people do... My elder brothers and my elder sisters, you know, they, I think I said, there was a ten-year, almost a ten-year gap before I came along, they left home to get married. I think that’s what people did in their generation. I think, I think we were the first lot who didn’t do that, you know, we couldn’t wait to live, you know, by yourself or with a friend or whatever and have that kind of, sexual freedom, and, all sorts of things, it was, it was... I don’t think...perhaps people did who went to university, I suppose they must have done. But certainly from my background, that was, I think we were the first people to do that really. Probably were. Mm.

Can you remember the day you moved out?

No. (laughs) I can remember the day I moved in. I wasn’t very good at...

What, they’re different are they?

...looking after myself in the sense that I didn’t cook... You know, if you came from the sort of background I came, you...you didn’t cook, you didn’t even do any washing-up, it was that chauvinistic. You did other things, like, you know, dig up spuds in the garden or something, and, physical things, but not cooking. You know, for the first time I think, oh God! I’ve got to go to the shop, you know, got to go to the supermarket, and that kind of thing. But I soon quickly got into a routine. I had, down the end of the road where I lived in Putney was a launderette, so I used to take all my shirts and they’d launder them, all come back all nicely folded in a packet. Bung my washing in there and pick it up on the way home. Was never very good at cleaning the house, but, didn’t have a cleaner or anything like that. Yes, just sort of lived like a student I suppose. (laughs) But it was... And I was working all the time, so I mean, the flat was somewhere to go home to sleep, or, or whatever. But, you know, I...I think I’ve always had a history of not wanting to be at home kind of thing, being out was nice. I mean, I’d have to leave home at sort of, 8.30, quarter past eight. Often I went straight out from work. I mean I think if I remember, I didn’t actually drink very much, only out, and you know, if you went out for dinner or something. And of course, in those days we used to drink and drive, which I think, when I think of now is terrible. You weren’t stopped for that. No, it was lovely, it was, wonderful, I mean, left the suburbs, moved out of home, was working in, you know, the best salon, or certainly one of them in London. It was a great time for me. Met lots of ladies, of course, which was nice. And there was, I think there was a sort of, sexual freedom then in those days, I can’t remember whether the Pill was invented, but, couldn’t have been long after that. So it was a wonderful time. Freedom.

Did your parents ever visit your flat in Putney?

No, they never did. They never came up to town. I’m just... I remember when we opened Smile in ’69, and Keith and I thought we ought to, we must bring our parents up to see the...(laughs)...to see the place. And when we opened... Sorry, I’m jumping around. When we opened Smile, it was, the design of this place, designed by a guy called John Cairns between he and I and Keith, when you sit round and talk about...and I’d like to talk about that more when we come to it, just about the space. But we had, the actual design was very...you walked up onto the first floor, and it was 1,000 square feet. It had white Amtico floor. And we designed a grid rather like a

Meccano set made out of scaffold poles, which were painted bright yellow. And the lighting would sit on top of the scaffolding poles, if you can imagine it. And it was very different. Where you sat down if you were waiting to have your hair cut was a swing chair. And what was lovely, you walked up, up a narrow staircase, up to the first floor, and then suddenly you were in this sort of open space. And I do want to talk about how we designed, separate, you know, sectioned it off so that when you sat down, you didn’t feel like you were sitting in a row. Well, that was quite a bit of stuff there. So, anyway, we decided, Keith and I, that we must bring our parents up, just before we open the shop, and we brought them...you know, I drove down, picked them up, and we had, we took them for lunch at, I can’t remember where, and then we took them up to the shop, which was empty obviously, this was before we...we hadn’t opened yet. And I’ll never forget my dad, I thought it was... He looked at me and said, ‘It’s very nice son, it’ll be great when they take the scaffolding down.’ (laughs) You know, I think that sums up...it wasn’t their world, you know. They were getting on a bit then as well. But... So they didn’t understand, fashion in that sense, had no idea of what it meant. So coming up to London for them would...I can’t remember them ever doing it, other than that time that I brought them up then.

And what did...what did he say when you explained that it was staying up?

I didn’t really explain. I... It wasn’t any point, because he sort of...again, like I explained about haircuts at that time, like cutting Sandie Shaw’s hair, he couldn’t...for someone like him, you know, a hairdo was supposed to be all, you know, glamorous and backcombed and... And that was the big change then I think for, for all of us, it was, you know, massive change-round, you know, pop music particularly I think changed all that kind of...you didn’t have to look like that any more. You didn’t have to look all dressed up. You’ve got to remember, their generation, you got dressed up on a Sunday, you know, you put your best suit on. They didn’t go to church, but you, you were supposed to look very smart on Sunday. God knows why. But... And all of that was sort of going wasn’t it, or had gone really.

So what did you wear when you went down on a Sunday to see, to have lunch with them?

I wouldn’t be wearing a tie. And by...I think then I was having, yes I was having all my suits made, and, what was quite funny was...and my dad was pretty much my size, and he wasn’t interested in shopping or whatever, I’d often give him one of my suits I didn’t wear any more. So he used to look quite trendy. (laughs) You know, take him to the pub and he had a proper suit on. As I said, it was hard for you to...there was...by then there were shops that were beginning to make clothes that you could wear. But I... So I’d have, you know, a pair of trousers on, probably Cuban heeled Chelsea boots, and a shirt, and overcoat, that kind of thing.

What about your mum, what was her response to the salon?

She didn’t respond in that way. No, I just think, she was...they were both, my parents and her parents, just pleased for us really that we’d, you know, we opened our own business, which was extraordinary. By then I think I was twenty-six. You know, she thought we’d done very well, and wasn’t it nice for her favourite son to have is own place kind of thing. Yes. But she didn’t understand it, why would she, you know, she wasn’t in that world at all. And Keith’s parents were very much the same, you know, they were thrilled for Keith, you know, their little boy had opened this place. And we had a huge amount of publicity, it was in the newspapers, being the first unisex salon and everything, so, they would see things like that, you know, and Mum would say, ‘Ooh! I saw, you know... Very nice, very nice dear.’ And I’d say, ‘Yes, it’s good isn’t it Mum.’ But we never, you know, really talked about it.

So, you haven’t mentioned before that you’re her favourite son.

Oh. (laughs) That’s what my elder sister used to tell me, yes, I think that... I think it was all to do with, well, having spoken a bit about it, they didn’t have a wonderful marriage, and, by the time I came along I think they were a bit more apathetic and had come to an arrangement with each other. So it was probably a more peaceful time for her. Yes, maybe she was a bit more chilled out, I’m not sure really. But, my sisters used to tell me, ‘Oh, look we....go and ask Mum for something,’ I’d be the one that had to do that, because... And I’d learn how to be a diplomat and make it, you know, not give her a hard time.

[End of F14374 Side B] [F14375 Side A]

So, could you tell me how you found the flat in Putney?

Yes, one of the great things about being a hairdresser is, you just get to know an amazing amount of people. What I was...in talking, I would...I’m fairly certain this is how it happened. I was telling one of my clients that I was looking for a flat, and...I wish I could remember her name, sadly I can’t. She and two friends, she would have been about thirty I guess, and they were all clients of mine, had bought this property in Putney, in Disraeli Road. The tube line used to run right past my bedroom window. (laughs) And, she said, ‘Oh we’ve just finished this flat, this house, and we’ve converted it into two flats, and the one at the top has got three bedrooms. Would you like to, you know, if you want to, come and see it.’ And, great. So, I didn’t do very much looking in that sense. As I said, that’s one of the great things about being a hairdresser, you get to know things like that with people. So, I went along to see it. Keith was looking for a flat at the time. And his brother, who was, David, who was completely, ended up being a management consultant, was in a very different world, but I knew David, and I used to cut his hair for him. So, he was looking for a flat, and we all moved in together. We each paid £5 a week rent, which was terrific. And I’ve got really fond memories of that, I mean it was my first flat away from home. Obviously we shared a kitchen and a bathroom, but we all had our own bedrooms. It, it was really nice. But that’s how I, I didn’t look in the newspaper or anything like that, so that, it came through people I knew.

And how was it furnished?

Oh, very...it wasn’t modern. I mean my bedroom, I had a double bed, a dressing table, a wardrobe and a, and a chair you could sit on, straight-backed chair. The living room had two sofas in it. Very nice, but very traditional. And of course the big thing then is, we had the biggest stereo we could find. (laughs) And you had albums then, vinyl. Both Keith and I were very much into pop music. And, we used to go to work together, and then, wouldn’t always go home together, one of us, both of us probably going out somewhere. And David I would see occasionally, because I was

And was the furniture already there?

Mm.

Did you have to...

Yes, we didn’t choose any of it, it was furnished. And I didn’t have any furniture myself anyway. Just more important, a place to hang my clothes up. You know, the sort of... And remember from my sort of background, living in a council house and all the rest of it, you didn’t have any space. You know, having a much bigger room, my own living room if you like, although it was shared, was really nice.

And, so did you do any decorating or, or put up pictures or anything?

No, I didn’t there at all. It was...they literally, they had very nice taste, it wasn’t my taste, although I didn’t really know that at the time, but it was very comfortable. I didn’t have a picture or a...anyway, to hang up. So, no, I just literally moved in as it was. In fact it was, for some useless bachelor like me at the time, it was wonderful, I didn’t have anything to do, other than... I’ve always been very work-orientated, I think we all were, you know, it was such a big thing in my time, to, you know, to move out from where I’d been and to have a career and, so it was all, apart from my career would be about, you know, buying the latest album I wanted, clothes obviously. So I wasn’t...I can’t say I was madly interested in design, in interiors in that case. I had no experience of it. That came later with designing your own salon, and, realising how important design was. Is this a good time to talk about Allen Jones?

Can I just ask you one more question?

Yes. Yes.

Was there also crockery provided, or did you have to buy those?

Yes, absolutely everything. There was a little kitchen, you know, with a stove. We never had a washing machine, but, all the crockery, everything was there, it was all perfectly...I didn’t have to buy anything. Yes. (laughs)

And who were your neighbours in the other flat, what sort of people were there?

There was a Guyanese wife who lived down below, and I can’t, I would... Again I was never, you know, my hours were, I wouldn’t see them really. You know, I’d leave in the morning, often not get back till one o’clock the next morning, have some sleep, back to work again. And, Saturday night, as I said to you, would be a night when I would be tired from work. I did also have access to, I’ve always liked football, and because we finished work at one o’clock as I said on Saturday, I would often go to watch Arsenal play football, for the home matches. So I’d go there. And then I would go back home. And that’s really, the Saturday evening I would spend in, you know, I would actually make an attempt at cooking something. (laughs) And...

What sort of thing?

Well I mentioned the Hungry Horse, where you could buy stuff. God! what would we eat then? Well, I’d cook a bit of chicken, you know, boiled potatoes. If I was really being good, a few vegetables with it.

And how did you know how to cook a chicken?

Keith and his brother knew how to cook, because they’d actually, Keith by then had been, he’d lived away from home, with his brother, and also he, because he wanted to travel so much, he for a year worked on, on cruise liners where they went round the world. So he by then was much more used to that kind of thing than I was. Yes.

So you didn’t buy a cookery book or anything?

Oh God! no. (laughs) And I ate out a huge amount. It sort of... If I didn’t do that on a Saturday afternoon, go to football, we’d go down to the King’s Road sometimes. And sometimes I’d have lunch in San Frediano, in the Fulham Road, and that came about from being... You know, going out to eat for me, all that was kind of new from age of about nineteen, you didn’t do that in my generation. Going out to restaurants was what posh people did, you know. Suddenly everybody did it, it was great. San Frediano was run by a called Franco, he was one of the partners, and he, I met him at Leonard’s, because he used to do the teas and coffees there. So, often I’d go to lunch, usually with a very pretty lady. By then I wasn’t seeing Cathy any more. And he’d often stand behind her, after service, and he’d put his thumbs up or his thumbs down. (laughs) Not horribly, it wasn’t a male chauvinist thing. By then I wasn’t a male chauvinist at all, I’d realised, you know, it wasn’t the way. I then realised how much I like women. And that’s the other thing for me. I still think a lot of men don’t like women. And, over the years I’ve always preferred their company, and rather be with women than men basically, much more fun.

So, why, why... Two questions at the same time. Well, I’ll ask, I’ll finish off one thing first. Did your girlfriends ever cook for you?

[pause] God! I don’t think any of them cooked for me. I don’t think that really happened to me until I got married. No I don’t think we did dinner parties, as far as I can remember. I’m trying to think of anybody’s house we went for dinner. There’d be parties, but they, that wouldn’t be cooked food, it would be a cold buffet type thing, and canapés and... And as well at that time you...there was a bit more, you know, marijuana was beginning to come in and so you’d sort of, smoke a bit of dope maybe. No, I can’t remember anyone inviting us, me for dinner. We’d go out all the time, eat out a lot. And it wasn’t, it was much cheaper I think, you could afford to do that. It’s much more expensive now going out to eat.

And would you smoke only at parties, or was that something that just happened at home?

Smoking marijuana became a bit of my culture. I never got into cocaine or acid or, a lot of people did. Some of them really wrecked their, some of my, a couple of

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375A Page 111 colleagues at Leonard’s really wrecked their life like that. And, so, I didn’t really drink very much, but I, I certainly got into the habit of, when I would come home I would roll a joint and smoke. And it was, again, listening to music, if I was staying in. Highly dangerous when I think about it now, I’d roll a joint and go out. (laughs) Yes, and so that was, that was kind of, my first experience of drugs in those days.

And where would you get them from?

Oh it’s always been easy in London to... Any connection with the music business, there would always be somebody you’d know who could get stuff. Marijuana anyway. I’ve never bothered with, with cocaine or any of that sort of stuff, so I don’t know, but the same guys I’m sure would supply you, there’s always been dealers haven’t there, everywhere. And everybody smoked really: everybody, that’s a huge exaggeration. I think most people around the fashion world or the, certainly in the music world, would be at least smoking marijuana.

Men as well as women?

Oh yes, absolutely.

And, was contraception something that, that ordinary, or young women talked about to you?

Contraception?

You know, your girlfriends.

I think all of them would have been taking a contraceptive pill. We didn’t, it wasn’t condoms, no.

But did you know that, or did they tell you?

No, they would tell you, I think, yes. Oh you...I mean, I think we were still fairly responsible-ish. (laughs) You didn’t want to become a daddy or they didn’t want to

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375A Page 112 become a mum, you know, kind of thing. And the Pill was a massive thing for women, wasn’t it? I mean, sexual freedom for them as well was, was huge. Before that as a kid, you know, I suppose I would have been about fifteen when, my first experience of that sort of stuff, and we’d, it was condoms, you know. And all those silly jokes that boys had about how you went to buy them, and all that kind of stuff.

Are they true?

What, being afraid to go and buy them? Oh yes, it was a bit embarrassing, you had to go to the chemist and find them. (laughs) I always loved that thing, because, in the old days when you went to the barber, which is way before my time, they used to sell condoms in the barber’s, and the saying was, you know, you’d cut someone’s hair apparently, with the clippers or whatever they did, and then, say, ‘And would you like anything for the weekend Sir?’ (laughs) Which assumed they only did it at the weekend, I’m not sure. (laughs) No, it was for men, for me particularly, I mean, yes, obviously had, met a lot of women, which was lovely, and for women, they could be sexually freer because they weren’t going to become pregnant.

But would you ask them first, or would they tell you first?

I think it got to the point to be honest that it was naturally assumed that’s what they did. Really, yes, I think so. And, and... Yes, when I think about it, if that wasn’t the case, yes, they would tell you I think.

So, do you mind saying why you broke up with Cathy?

Oh I see. I think, she was the first great love of my life, and I explained earlier how I hadn’t ever met anyone like her before, and, and her brothers and sisters became part of my, all of us who, our aspirations of what we wanted to do, and I’m still in contact with all of them, and I still consider them like my second family. I think there were lots of things going on. By then I used to see Cilla Black socially a lot with her husband Bobby, and we’d go to clubs like the Ad Lib and restaurants like San Lorenzo. I think really, I didn’t...Bobby and I had a bit of an empathy with each other because we, our girlfriends that we knew before suddenly became these massive sort

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375A Page 113 of, famous people. Which was lovely, I mean it was lovely going to Brian Epstein parties and all the rest of it. But there were times when I felt like I was, you know, I...that’s Cathy’s boyfriend, you know. (laughs) And I had my own career. I think we just grew up. I mean she, she was doing all sorts of different things, and we just sort of, drifted apart really in a way. Not horribly, it wasn’t nasty. And so for, I don’t know how long it was, maybe a year, I didn’t really see her. And I think as well for me then I was sort of, I’d changed, as we’ve just spoken about, there was this huge sort of sexual change as well. You know, I just, I had a very god time...(laughs)...and meeting other people. But later, after about a year, however long it was, we connected again, and, and we were just great friends. You know, she was there when I got married, I was there when she got married. And, she, she will always be a special friend of mine.

So, have you carried on doing her hair as well?

I haven’t done it for a long time now. Cathy’s still got the same haircut. I don’t...she doesn’t...she wouldn’t bother to come up to the salon, she lives in Barnes, and she wouldn’t bother to come up to the salon and have her hair cut, and... Cathy’s one of these people who would cut her own hair if she wanted to. (laughs) It’s... She still looks wonderful, she’s still terrific, and still very fashionable as always, in, you know, we’re much older now. No, I think we just grew apart really. I think I found it difficult sometimes that was she was well known. I’m not sure if I told you the story of driving back from Brighton, did I? You know, Cathy was known as Queen of the Mods, which was... And at that time if you were a mod you had a scooter, a GS. Keith was a mod. I always wanted a car, which I had. But we decided one Sunday, Cathy and I, to...I had an MGB that was an open-top, it was a beautiful day, and we would drive down to Brighton – we went to Hove actually – and we’d have a bit of lunch and we’d walk along the seaside, and, and then drive back again. And driving back, it was early evening, six o’clock or something, suddenly there’s about 150 motorcycles, scooters, behind us, all with mods on. And they used to wear these like, furs hanging off the back of an aerial, all chromed things. So they, they’d kind of overtake me, and suddenly see Cathy, and, oh, the whole way home we’d got 150 of these kids, you know, shouting out, ‘Ooh Cathy..’ you know. It’s sort of, that kind of thing used to get on my nerves. And it would be difficult to go out anywhere without

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375A Page 114 somebody coming over and wanting her autograph, or a...whatever. So, that, that was happening a bit. But it changed, you know, we, when I knew her, she was trying to be a journalist, I was trying to get a job at Leonard’s, and we were trying to struggle along. And suddenly, she was this huge star, I mean she was massive. So, and I don’t quite know how it happened, we just sort of, stopped seeing each other quite as much, and then, I don’t think we ever had a conversation, ‘OK, this is over’; it was just like, we just stopped seeing each other. And then, we were both socially doing different things, yes.

And how do you think that sort of attention, how did she cope with it?

She...she coped with it... Well it was all new I guess. No, she coped with it very well when I think about it now. Cathy always lived at home, so she lived with her...she had, she always had me or, or her brother John or Cathy, Frankie, and my best chum Peter Glossop who I mentioned about, and her mum, sort of trying to keep her feet on the ground I think really. We talked a little bit about drugs just now and again, and I can’t remember Cathy taking anything, she hardly drank anything. So, even though she would be going to, we all were, her and I, going to Brian Epstein parties, she wouldn’t be going out and having a joint or whatever. She, she was very level- headed, and, you know, kept her feet on the ground, and she had her family I think that kept her like that. Because it... But I mean, I think she thought of it was a job, you know, she... It’s like everything I guess, you get used to being on television, and, she had...she would do loads of business deals, she had a range of shoes at one time, and she had a range of portable record players that were being sold. So she was very busy, and it was sort of, happening. And her week would be, she’d go to the studio a lot, you know, there was quite a lot of planning for the show on the Friday. No, I think she thought of it as a job, and, probably...she enjoyed the attention I think, which, I think you need to. But it, it just happened, it wasn’t really planned. I mean she went there, I may have said this earlier, for, she was, she had the job to advise them on...they had a live audience, and, where they would find the right looking young kids from the right clubs, and the people, the producers, right, really didn’t know anything about pop music. So, that’s how she got the job. And then, whilst doing that, as a researcher if you like, they said, ‘Why don’t you front it?’ and, and it took off from there.

But did you go to Ready Steady Go!?

Oh God! yes. Got some great memories of being there. Again all this was wonderful. I mean I, the first studio was in Holborn, and, to get into the studio you, there were these huge plate glass doors, and then inside, it was a small studio, but every band that you can imagine... If you wanted, if you wanted the right publicity and you wanted to make it, you had to be on Ready Steady Go!. So I can remember being there once with Cathy before the show, and the Beatles were on. This is the other thing that I just mentioned about the mods thing, it was very different then. I mean, there were 20,000 kids outside, and they would try and get in without a ticket. You know, the tickets for Ready Steady Go!, it was like, wonderful, you know, because you were...I think it was the first time people like that ever appeared on TV, kids, you know. I mean, averagely they would be about eighteen-year-olds, mostly little mods either with their tight suits on or whatever. And it was, it was really frightening, the doors began to bow. I mean we all thought we were going to die, it’s going to... Luckily the police came along and managed to disband them. But I think people forget, you know, if the Beatles turned up anywhere, kids used to try and rip their clothes off, grab a piece of their hair. It was very sort of, physical. I think, now some of them, I think they do have at least a bit of a life, but at that time it was really, frightening. And I remember going to, Brian Epstein used to put a Christmas show on every year, which was at the Rainbow Theatre in Islington, and they’d have people on like Billy J. Kramer to begin with, Tommy Quickly, Cilla Black, and then the Beatles would, would finish it, finish the show. But they, these kids would sit there and just shout the names whilst the other stars were on, ‘John, Paul, Ringo,’ the whole way through their performance, and the minute the Beatles walked on the stage they just screamed. So you would never hear them play. And then they’d just pass out and there’d be St John’s Ambulance men carrying them out. It was a... That’s one of the reasons they stopped doing it. After the Shea stadium thing in New York, they decided never to do it, and no one listened to them play. That’s why they became, I think one of the reasons they became the great recording artists. [pause] So, yes.

[inaudible].

No, so... I think after a while, talking about how we split up, I kind of, stopped going to Ready Steady Go! every Friday. And then it moved to, sort of White City somewhere, and the show went live. So I used to...I don’t...I stopped going to the show, I’d pick Cathy up after the show kind of thing. But I think we just gradually separated, I thought, I...you know, she was doing other things and I was doing other things really. Yes.

And, apart from Biba, what...what other sort of...could you describe some of the clothes that she wore that...?

She loved, there were two designers called Tuffin and Foale. Cathy was the sort of perfect shape for the Sixties thing, she was very thin, she had really good legs as well, so miniskirts were terrific. Barbara I remember the most because it was such a nice time, we used to go round on a Thursday evening, she’d be knocking out a dress for Cathy the next day. What else was Cathy...? She always wore, well she wore boots a lot of the time. I can remember her being thrown out of the Ritz because she had a trouser suit on, which was, I can’t remember who made that. I can remember Sonia Rykiel, Cathy used to like. Yes, it would be the young designers. But all of those clothes, you know, the very tight top, you know, were perfect for her really. So, she would wear them all the time.

What would happen, because you describe the sort of very straight hair, what did people with curly hair do?

Straighten it. Yes, I mean there was a whole load of people who literally, you’d have tongs, you know, that you could pull the hair straight with, apart from the hairdryer. There were a lot of people that used a technique of, when the hair was really wet, that you literally put a parting mostly on one side, and you’d comb the hair as flat as you could. You wrapped it round your head, to keep the hair straight, and then you sat under a dryer and roasted it until it was dry. And then that would come out looking straight. People used to iron their hair, on an ironing board, brown paper, can you believe. No, everyone was desperately pulling their hair straight. Or, you used massive great big rollers, and then you’d straighten the hair afterwards, you know, so that you took the curl out of it till it dried and then you’d pull it really straight with a

Denman brush which is what we were talking about earlier. No, people, you know, it was all straight hair; if you wanted to look right, you had straight hair.

And were there any special lotions that you used to make, to help the hair?

Well you could actually straighten hair, which was the same lotion used to perm it, but it was really risky, and you got, often you got a lot of hair breakage. Because what you had to do is put the lotion on, and instead of putting the perm and roller in, you had to comb it and pull it hard, pulling it straight, and that, you often broke the hair, I mean you know, if you... And in fact if ever you did it... I certainly used to talk a load of people out of having it done, but if you did it, you almost had to, ‘Well now look, you know, this could make...your hair could break a bit, and it will make it extremely dry.’ You know, it was, it was very... Now you can do it, but then, it was very difficult. Mostly you did it, most, ninety per cent of the people I would say, straightened their hair by the way they set it, and pulled it straight, or, the wraparound technique I mentioned, or even ironing it. If they had really long hair, people used to iron it, God knows how they did it. I never actually saw anyone do it. But yes, to look straight.

[End of F14375 Side A] [F14375 Side B]

You mentioned Allen Jones, and I just wondered whether you could tell me how you...

Yes.

...how you met him.

His wife, Janet, was a client. And I think at that time, I’m almost sure, Keith was cutting Allen’s hair as well. What happened, I don’t know if I mentioned this earlier, that, how Keith came to run the men’s salon at Leonard’s. Right. Keith actually joined Leonard’s to be a colourist, and, we then, the men’s thing started to happen. Have I talked about that? So, I’d better talk about that first before coming on to Allen Jones. What used to happen, clients would come in, and we, the boys, the

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375B Page 118 hairdressers that worked, we used to cut each other’s hair. Because you...other than that, you went to a barber, there was one at Harrods, there was another one called Trumper’s which I think was in Jermyn Street. But they basically only cut hair in the traditional men’s way, which was more or less a version of short back and sides. So they worked with scissors and comb, or even clippers. To cut women’s hair was a different technique, you used, you didn’t use scissors and comb in that way. So we were all trained ladies’ hairdressers. So clients would come in and say, ‘Who cuts your hair?’ you know, and, ‘Could you cut my husband’s hair?’ So, it began that they started coming after hours, and there was a little cubicle at Leonard’s where they would come and cut their...I think it was the first one to start doing it there. And I’d have clients like Brian Epstein, pff, an amazing cli...and Peter Sellers, and people who were...they couldn’t get the kind of longer haircut properly. And Leonard obviously saw this was quite a good opportunity. So he opened a little men’s salon right at the top of the building. And, Keith was to run it, the manager. And so I think, Allen Jones used to come there to have his hair cut to Keith, and I used to cut Janet’s hair. And Allen started making those life-size furniture things that are quite well known, there’s one that’s like a coat hanger, and it’s a lady who’s about, she looked like Janet, who is about five foot eight with suspenders on, and, but they needed, he wanted a wig to be cut for them. So, I used to go round to, they lived in Edith Grove at that time, and I’d cut these wigs for, for the pieces of furniture basically. And what I found really interesting was, about, it’s about thirteen years ago now, the Royal Academy did an Op[sic] art exhibition, which Allen was...he played a big part in getting all the collection together, Peter Blake being one of them, or sections of his work. And, I remember taking my youngest daughter, Katie, and she was thirteen at the time, to go to see this sort of exhibition. And the Op[sic] art didn’t get me at all at the time, I didn’t sort of...

You mean in the Sixties?

Yes, in the Sixties, when it first began. Andy Warhol I found quite interesting. But I can’t say I really had a... It was fascinating, but I didn’t understand it or didn’t have a special feeling for it. But going to the exhibition in, thirteen years ago, so we’re talking about 1970 I guess, there was still, there were two examples of Allen’s furniture there, and the two wigs I’d cut were still there on the model, which I thought

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375B Page 119 was extraordinary. Looking a bit grubby, but they were still there. But the other thing was, Katie loved the exhibition, at thirteen, she loved all those acrylic paintings, and, we were there for a couple of hours, and she asked me the time when we were out and said, ‘That was really great Dad, we’ve been in there two hours.’ But what I found, what I realised was that I, how much that era had influenced all the graphics we now use, all the sort of, if you go and see a film, all the captions are in, obviously... So, it was, it made me realise how art can be very important. I think being the working- class lad I was at the time, I didn’t really fully understand art in that sense, but that was fascinating, you know. So, it was nice to do that, and be sort of, look at it all those years later and think, oh yes, it’s OK. (laughs) It’s quite nice.

What did you think about the pieces at the time?

I think I thought they were extraordinary really, and I...you can be in that situation and not really comment. How I would approach it with Allen was, he would say, ‘Look, you know, I want...what do you think, what do you think her hair should be like?’ and we’d talk about it, and I’d...I’d get this, get...I’d organise the wig and cut it for him, and... Oh, yes, great, that’s finished, you know, dom bom[ph], and it would be a nice thing to do. But... Oh I...they were extraordinary as well, I don’t think anybody else was doing that at the time, and, so that was fascinating just to see that. I wasn’t aware of his paintings at all at that time, but... So I was really just asked to do it from Janet really, you know, ‘Do you think you could come and look at these pieces of furniture that Allen’s making and cut the wigs for him?’ So it was fun, yes. Clever man.

Sorry, just to clarify something. Can you remember anything about the discussions about, you know, what sort of haircuts, the style and the colour of the hair as well, and the wigs?

They were both blond. This person was, you know, the coat hanger one particularly, is, it’s glamorous, you know, and she’s a very sexy woman. So we decided she’d be blonde. And, also that she should look modern, you know. It was a, it was a variation of a bob that we did basically. It was glamorous. Oh I think Allen’s stuff was always glamorous. I’m not sure about his...I wouldn’t be...his paintings as well I think. So, it wouldn’t have been a long conversation, you know, he’d say, ‘Well OK, can you, can

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375B Page 120 you get me a wig and do it?’ I’d say, ‘Yes, fine.’ And I’d come and do it. And he’d say, ‘Great, that’s lovely, that’s fine, thanks very much.’ (laughs)

And, did you, did it sort of...

It was easy in a way, because, Janet, his wife, was a very beautiful woman, you know, really I suppose, I kind of, the wig more or less looked like her haircut.

And, did you, did it affect in any way how you thought about art then?

[pause] Not, not in that...not really. I sort of, I had no art education whatsoever. As I said all along, my kind of interest in fashion was street fashion and that kind of thing. No, I mean I never would have met somebody like him other than through Leonard’s, an artist, a painter or whatever. My idea of art I think would have been painting more than anything else. I always find it fascinating the last few years if ever I’ve been to, you know, end of art school term when they exhibit, I find myself much more drawn to sculpture than painting. At that time I think I would have thought of art, it had to be a painting, and I would have probably been looking more at, you know, Matisse or... I remember going to the Picasso exhibition, I think that was in the Sixties, in the old Tate, well it’s still there isn’t it, and thinking, they’re extraordinary, I don’t know what to think about these paintings. I think everyone else thought the same thing, I think so. Well I really quickly learnt that, that you can’t really comment about art in the sense, I think we can say, I like it or I don’t. I think it helps when you go to an exhibition, someone knows the history of them. But as I mentioned, with the Op[sic] art thing, I had no real feelings for it at the time, you know, Andy Warhol stuff I thought was extraordinary, I always liked the Marilyn Monroe thing, I just thought, oh yes, I like that. But it wasn’t really until I went to the Seventies exhibition of Op[sic] art thirteen years ago that I... Sorry, it would be the Sixties, but going thirteen years ago, realising what an impact it does have I think. I still don’t know what I think about Blake, but, the exhibition they had, the piece that they had there, was the stuff he used to just pick up from the ground and make a...art out of. Now when I think about Picasso, I mean, when you look at the history and the...so prolific, it’s fantastic, but I didn’t, I didn’t understand it at the time.

Can you remember who went with you to the Picasso exhibition?

Ah I would have gone with Cathy I’m sure, yes. I...that...it would be quite rare for me to go to a gallery. It’s the first one I can remember going to.

Did you see the Allen Jones pieces when they were exhibited?

No, not at all. I mean, a couple of weeks when I’d see them in his house, and then the next time I saw them was thirteen years ago. (laughs) And, and again realised how clever they are, you know, and how... It’s a wonderful concept, and, it’s amazing how art does, how... Again, I really didn’t understand it, but how it depicts the time, which is wonderful.

And have you, have you sort of had any other associations with artists?

Well also that Grayson Perry era. (laughs) Yes, I’ve kind of, say, I’ve...now my attitude to art, if I like it or I don’t like it. And, through Keith particularly and clients coming in, we have had quite a lot of artists over the years. And, what I find quite interesting, most of them... You can’t really ask them why they do something, I don’t think. I don’t think...it just becomes a question of, if you like it or you don’t. And like Grayson Perry who came to work at, at Smile for about a year and a half, he used to run the little kitchen sort of sandwich services, so that he would make teas and coffees for the clients. I don’t...when I think about it now, I don’t quite know what...he was in between a course or something, or, can’t really remember. So we had quite a lot of pots that he made, which was really nice. And... (laughs) Talking about Claire, his other person, it just became the norm, he would talk about her like you would talk about your mum or your sister or whatever. But I was, I did find it extraordinary to see when, the first time I saw a picture of Claire, when he was going to a friend’s wedding and decided to take Claire. And then some weeks later saw the photographs, and then looking at this person standing at the end of the line of all these young people looking like Mrs Thatcher. That’s Claire. And I was quite shocked. (laughs) I would have thought he’d have a much more fashionable Claire than he did. But I think he’s typical of what we were talking about earlier, Allen Jones thing. I can’t remember him ever talking about his work. He would show us his pots, and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375B Page 122 they were always different, and a different style. I liked them. But I would never have dreamed that he would win a Turner Prize thing, which is wonderful. So, yes, I...I think you need... You’ve got to know someone really well and personal to talk about their work in that sort of way.

Did he ever ask you advice about Claire’s look?

No. (laughs) Not at all. And I can’t, I don’t think he did anybody. Not that I’m aware of. I don’t think he did.

So when, when was it that he, that he ran this café thing for you?

It was certainly in the last, twenty years. I would say, well you know, possibly about, ten years ago. I can’t remember how he came to be... He must have known one of us at Smile. Because, we’ve al...we’ve always had a, you know, a tradition of, like every year at Smile we bring out a Christmas card, and we’ve often had, we have them designed, we don’t have them...sometimes we’ve done them ourselves, but mostly we’ve asked someone to design them. And we’ve had like, art students do them before. So we’ve always had, we did a lot of fashion shows for the, you know, St Martin’s and all of those, for a long time. So we always had those kind of connections. He must have come through that way somehow, knowing about Smile I mean.

Have you ever had clients, you know, transvestite sort of clients?

I can only remember one person who came to have his hair cut, not long ago, about five or six years ago, very smart man, short, grey hair, and he came in and had a very neat, short haircut. And, he said to one of the boys who was cutting his hair, or, the guy who was cutting his hair, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I’m on TV, do you mind?’ So, Derek I think it was said, ‘No, of course I don’t mind.’ (laughs) And the next time he arrived to have his hair cut, he came dressed as a woman. And obviously he meant, you know, ‘Do you mind if I come dressed like that?’ He came for about six months, it was fine. Oh no we did have one earlier than that, in the Seventies, as well. But, I think we’ve always been able to have a... One of our big things when we opened

Smile was to have a relaxed place that Keith and I would be happy to go to. So, so we’ve had some extraordinary sort of, characters, clients who felt quite comfortable there. Yes, he used to enjoy coming in, cut his hair, off you go. Fine. I mean in the job I do, there is no, there is hardly any phobias about homosexuality or sexuality or men and women. So it’s, it’s easy, it’s not difficult.

I suppose what I, what I was wondering was, whether this person who came, and maybe the other one, and given what you said about the sort of, relaxed philosophy of Smile, you know, what was the look that they wanted as women?

That particular, the last person that I mentioned, the one before that I can remember in the, in the Seventies, he used to come to Knightsbridge Smile, had shoulder length hair, which, which meant more then anyway. But, so we’d be just giving him a very nice haircut that was longer hair. But I imagine, I never...he would come sometimes sort of fully made up. But I would imagine he would probably go home and make it, if he was going somewhere, make it a little bit more traditionally glamorous, you know, i.e. put some rollers in and that kind of stuff. I never actually saw him out socially. But, he’d be dressed as a man when he came. The second person I mentioned would come in and, again I was astounded, he looked like... The short hair would be what you, you know, the kind of short haircut that a man or a woman could wear. Silver grey. And he, I would have thought he bought his, his skirt and jacket from Marks & Spencer’s, that’s what he looked like. And again, I was quite stunned at this very traditional woman, not at all fashionable. Mm.

In your experience, are artists any different from, in terms of concern with their image, any different from any other of your clients?

[pause] I don’t... Some of them. I mean, do you know who I mean Dougie Fields? No. (laughs) I mean like Nicky Haslam’s been a client over the years, now he’s someone who’s changed his image a thousand times, you know, he used to be a teddy boy for a while, now he looks like Oasis at the moment. So, that...as a, as the hairdresser, you’re really dealing with understanding their image. I think possibly, some...I’m not suggesting Nicky Haslam is an artist, but, well he is, sorry. It is an area where you can express yourself more I think. Hairdressing generally is. I mean

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375B Page 124 you know, it was one of the jobs years ago you could, you could be overtly gay and it would be OK. Or whatever. I’m not suggesting that’s the way you express yourself. And, certainly in my time in the Sixties onwards, you know, clothes and image has become much more important, and I think a lot of artists are able to express themselves more like that. But I don’t really find them... I really do think those...it’s not quite so necessary maybe now to be... Well maybe not. I was thinking, it was probably, for some artists, been a way of getting themselves known, by looking dif... I mean Zandra Rhodes for instance, certainly one of the first people I ever saw with green hair. You know, it was fun to be different I think, and you could express yourself in a...all the barriers had broken, hadn’t they, in the Sixties particularly, and then, again the Seventies, you could, you could...you could wear what you liked, which is great. So, our role would always be understanding them and trying to give them a haircut that said that.

Sorry, I’m only familiar with Nicky Haslam through the Evening Standard...

Mm.

...as a sort of socialite.

Yes, but he is an interior designer. (laughs) So that would be his area of... You know, I mean, I think his background, well he’s an ex-Etonian schoolboy who, none of his colleagues from there I’m sure dress like him, and, he’s always changing his image, and this is what I’m into at the moment, which is fun.

And, and how does he describe to you what his new image is?

(laughs) He usually comes in dressed like it, you know. You know, or, and he wants you... So, you think, OK, you know, and you need to understand it, and, and act accordingly. Not difficult, not unless you... You know, he’s got sort of, sort of scruffy hair at the moment, you know, messy look, which, which, if he were a rock ’n’ roll man, if you like Oasis lookalike.

[pause]

Just to, perhaps finish off Keith doing, managing the men’s hair at...

Oh, right.

...at Leonard’s.

Mm.

Was it...was that floor, was the look in any way particularly masculine?

It was a tiny little apartment space. I can’t remember, there were just three places that you could cut someone’s hair. It’s very much right at the top of the building. Yes, it...it had a wash...you know, one washbasin where you would have your hair shampooed, and then you sat down in front of a mirror. I wouldn’t say it had any particular style. It was very nice, but not really...I don’t think it was saying a message particularly. And what we used to do was, I would then, you know, I still would cut some of my male clients’ hair, but they were then wanting to come in not just after hours, during the day, so I would send them up to Keith really. And that’s how in a way we began the first, the unisex thing, because, you know, I would send him all my clients. And then later he, he and Leonard completely fell out and he left, or I think was fired actually. (laughs) So, but we were still sharing a flat together. But it was, it was, you know, you know... You couldn’t get your...for a man, and, if I think about it now, if I wasn’t a hairdresser, it’s quite difficult for you to get that kind of haircut. So, it was, it was important to go somewhere and they could cut your hair longer, not, not just crop it off. I mean my whole, the only time I’ve ever been to a men’s hairdresser, and I stopped when I was about eleven, because my sister used to cut my hair, I mean you’d go in to the barber and say, ‘Look, I really don’t want very much off.’ (laughs) And they just hadn’t got a clue. They whack the back off, and the top was too long. Which is when I first started cutting friends’ hair, you know, in sort of more of a mod look, when I was about fifteen. But that time, men found it very difficult to get a longer haircut. So it became quite busy up there, with sort of, lots of sort of famous clients, you know, people like Warren Beatty used to come and, Bowie, David Bowie was a client then, who had long hair then. And, very sort of

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/06 F14375B Page 126 smart businessmen, as we’ve just talked about, sort of designers who had also, or artists who don’t want that short haircut. Then of course the Seventies came along and the hair got even longer.

But the salon upstairs had the same sort of gilt furniture and...?

Yes, it... I can’t remember exactly, but yes, if you walked up there, you wouldn’t think, this is different from downstairs. It was very tiny, and it was just, you know... But men and women still sitting separately, wouldn’t be together.

[end of session]

[End of F14375 Side B] [F14535 Side A]

Would you mind saying your, your name and date?

OK.

Yes?

OK, Leslie Russell, Wednesday 21st of January 2004.

So, so what did you, what have you been doing over Christmas and the New Year?

Christmas was lovely, I just spent it with my two daughters, talking for three days, which is nice, we haven’t had that kind of space for a long time. After Christmas lunch, Indian restaurant, Chutney Mary’s, which was lovely. Then came back and just talked. Then friends of theirs came over on Boxing evening, most of whom I used to take to school when they were little. It was really nice actually, very quiet. New Year I am not in love with at all, I try and avoid it as much as I can. I’m usually in bed before twelve and I think I managed it this year as well. It’s, it’s what I call amateur night, New Year’s Eve, worst evening out. So, that was nice. And then, back to work, and then just had a very nice weekend in Venice.

Could I just ask you to tell the tape what you actually had to at, at Chutney Mary’s?

I started with a tomato and saffron soup as a starter. And then I had organic chicken, Indian style, not, fairly hot. And then there were some like, what are they called, like samosas. And then some incredibly rich puddings which I don’t normally, but, it’s Christmas. We had champagne and we had some wine, it was very nice. About a four-hour lunch. And then wandered back, which is, not having to drive anywhere or find your way home is rather nice. I like Christmas in, here, in Chelsea, because there’s absolutely nobody about, it’s like, empty. No cars. It’s quite weird. But nice. Just for two or three days, it’s good. Yes.

And what sort of things do your daughters talk about?

What did we talk about? Well we sat round lunch on Christmas Day lunchtime, talking about how, what we would like to happen this year.

And what’s that?

Mostly is about their careers. (laughs) And Katie needs to get a job, singing. And Lucy is already producing TV adverts and stuff like that, so, hopefully more of the same for her. And, about, you know, memories, when they were kids, and some stories I can remember when they were small, which they like to hear about. No it was very very nice, yes.

What are those stories that they like to hear about?

Oh I mean just a time when Katie wouldn’t go to school, when she was about eight, to the point where I had to start work later in the day to take her to school every day. Scenes outside the school with her laying on the pavement with her arms round my ankles saying, ‘Daddy, I’m not going to school, I’m not going to school.’ One of those situations which took months to sort out. It turned out to be a dinner lady making her eat what she didn’t want to eat for lunch. So in the end it was resolved by her taking packed lunches, but it took months to sort. She wouldn’t tell us what it

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 128 was, which is, children don’t do. The weird thing is, when I reminded her of the story, she couldn’t remember anything about it. (laughs) Which, I think that’s a bit strange. I think she will, it was very traumatic for her. But, she...she says she doesn’t remember it at all, which is quite weird.

How did you find out that it was the dinner lady?

Oh, I just kept going to the school, seeing the headmistress. You know, and you know, lots of conversations... That awful thing, having to push her through the door and, sobbing, and go, because if I didn’t make her go, we decided, that she would get worse and worse, that she wouldn’t go. I think in the end she told me, Katie. And then I went to see them again, and, didn’t really apologise as such, but, we just decided, OK, she’ll have packed lunches, and that seemed to resolve that it really.

Where did they go to school? Where did Lucy and Katie go to school?

They both went to a little school off the Upper Richmond Road in Putney called Putney Park School. It’s one of those sort of schools where they had boys and girls up to the age of about nine, and then it was just a girls’ school. And, but only to A’levels, sixteen. And then Lucy went to Putney High School, and Katie went to Surbiton High School, to do their A’levels. Mm.

Why did they go to different schools?

It was just their personal choice really, they...they decided... I can’t remember what Lucy’s choices were now. But Putney High had a very good reputation, and she decided she’d like to go there. A conversation with them really, about where they would want to do their A’levels. I thought it was a good move though, they moved from, you know, the same school since they were five to sixteen. Although, actually one of the things we were talking about at Christmas time, Lucy was actually quite difficult to settle in, going to the other school, but she did very well there, so, you know.

[knocking sound outside]

Next door.

Do they want to come in?

No, some...just banging next door I think. Yes, and, they did very well, so they, they got to university from there, which is all you hope for really.

Are they close?

Oh very. Yes yes. I think in a way, their mother now lives in Spain, as she has done for the last two years, so I think they’re even more close now that they... At one time I think I would be the first one they told something to, but I think I’m second now, they tell each other first. (laughs) And if there’s anything wrong, they, they’re on the phone to each other. Mm. And it’s quite funny, one of the other things, Lucy has decided... One of her New Year’s resolutions is to get fit, and now, Katie is now a qualified fitness trainer, so she’s going to teach Lucy. But it’s been quite funny. After the first session I said, ‘Well how did it go with Katie?’ She said, ‘Well it went really well, she’s really quite good.’ I said, ‘Oh that’s good.’ And she said, ‘But, there was one moment when I said, “Come on, give me two more,” and Lucy turned round and said, “Sod off!”’ (laughs) But I think it’s going to work out OK. No they’re very, they’re very close, they’re proper sisters, which is nice.

And what about Lucy, can you sort of, think of stories...what sort of stories would you...?

Lucy, Lucy was one of those, she’s one of those amazing children, when she was really small, as a toddler, she had an incredible vocabulary, to the point where, you know, people were quite shocked that this little thing could say so much. And, always needed... My house, when they were little, was always full of other children, we lived in a cul-de-sac in Barnes, and, Lucy always had endless friends in all the time. I think half the street lived in my house basically. One particular boy called Callum, and they used to make radio tapes, they, they had like their own radio station, and it was called LC Radio. And they would do interviews, and you’d have to...you know, they’d

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 130 come and interview you, and this, I don’t know, they were about seven or eight or something. And Lucy’s a very bright child, for a long time couldn’t decide whether she was left-handed or right-handed. I remember her bringing me a little sentence when she was about five, that was impossible to read, but I happened to be standing next to a mirror in the hall at home, and it was a perfect mirror image of the sentence. So I should have realised then that she was a bit dyslexic. It didn’t really sort of, that didn’t really show itself till she was about eight I think, that kind of age. She was always sort of, you know, the first or second in the class, and then she kind of, literally went almost down, bottom of the class. Then we decided, she was having trouble reading from the blackboard. So I went and had her assessed, and they said that she is...she is slightly dyslexic, but not badly, but she had an average reading age, which was a tribute to her intelligence really.

Where did you have her tested?

It was a place in Holborn somewhere. You take the children along and they gave them... I think my ex-wife took her along. And they give you a report. And then they recommend what you should do about it. And they did recommend that she should have maybe a few special lessons. But I talked to a lot of people and decided not for her to do that, that would have meant her going along on a bus and going away from the school for a day. And, I decided it might be bad for her confidence, which, touch wood, turned out to be the correct decision. And, she, in a way, overcame it hers... She didn’t have a real spelling problem, but she did have problems, you know, it took her longer to read things.

And was that something you, that decision not to send her to the special classes, was that a decision that you took with your wife?

Yes, and talking to the headmistress at the school, and a few people that I knew, clients who were in that world of... I was worried about... Lucy can be one of those people, could be...she should be very confident, but isn’t; she’s never failed at anything, you know, she got wonderful A’level results, she got a first at university, but she’s weird, she need encouraging more than... I thought she might suffer by, you know, other children sort of, giving her a hard time about it. And she.. Oh I did sort

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 131 of give her, I did at that time also arrange a few private lessons for her, but not for dyslexia, because she was a little bit behind with her maths, and... It was the maths, that’s right. So that, to keep her confidence going. Not for very long, I think only for about six months. And then she seemed to go back up to the top of the class again pretty much. And she did, if you are dyslexic, when you come to do your A’levels you’re allowed an extra fifteen minutes per hour. So... And she ended up getting an A and two Bs. Annoyed with herself, she thought she should have had two As and a B. She’s got high standards in that way. So... I think, with children you kind of... You know, Lucy always needed encouraging, telling her how wonderful she was. Katie didn’t really seem to need that so much. You know, at home, you, I’d think, ‘Where’s Katie gone?’ Go up to her bedroom, she’d go up there for two hours, get all her dolls out, talking to them all, and quite happy with her own company. Lucy always needed lots of other friends and children around her, and encouraging all the time.

So, what did she study at university?

She went to Sussex. It’s amazing how things work out. She really wanted to go to Bristol and read history, but, because she didn’t get two As, her second option was Sussex University, and, she decided to do... Her A’level results were history, history of art and French. So she decided to read history with French and do a four-year degree where you do a swap. And after a year, she thought the French thing was rubbish, and before going to university she spent about six months in Italy; she went to Florence and was an au pair, looking after two children, and then went to language school every day. So she came back from Italy after about nine months pretty much fluent in Italian, so she swapped. So after a year at university doing French, which she didn’t think was very good, she swapped to Italian. And, which is good, because speaks fluent Italian and pretty much fluent French. I think, again back to her dyslexia, she was always good at hearing and saying, which is why as a little one she had such a wonderful vocabulary. And I think Katie, because of her music, you know, shares the same thing. And I think Katie’s probably slightly dyslexic as well, we never really, it didn’t become a problem with her. So, she did, she went to, on the third year of her degree she went to Perúgia University for a year.

And did you visit her there?

Every time I wanted to go, she used to come home. (laughs) It’s quite extraordinary, she’s... She had had a wonderful time in Florence, and made loads of friends. And for some reason decided not to go to, she could have gone to Florence, a university in Florence, which probably would have been more jolly. Her year at Perúgia, she found quite lonely actually. What happens, and I’ve heard this from a lot of other students, is, when you’re, you’re actually living there, there’s a lot of local students, and they all go home at weekends, so, what do you do? She does say that it probably made her work much harder. And they do this weird thing, when you come to do your...there’s an oral test that you sit up on a stage and you’re asked questions about various historical Italian treaties, and members of the public come in and sit in the audience and watch you, which she found quite traumatic. Anyway, she got her first, which is good. And then went back to uni. And for her final year at Sussex, she’d become rather fed up living like a student, so she actually, she was living with her mother in Putney, and she commuted to, she’d go down for lectures, drive down and study at home, you know, mostly. But she did well.

And when did, when did you realise that Katie was musical?

Not... She would always clonk around, I think we had a piano at home when she was little, and she’d sit there plonking around. I wouldn’t say she could play it. At Putney Park School when she was about eleven, she was very lucky there, there was a new music teacher came there, and she is an opera singer called Sharon Lloyd, and Sharon had to have some, an operation on her larynx to remove some polyps, so she couldn’t sing for two years, so decided to teach. And she was the one who decided that Katie could sing. So from the age of eleven she was mostly singing opera. And, and very much became her mentor, and so since that age she was signing opera. And it was only when she went to Exeter University, and they have a, a theatre there called the Northcott, which is actually on the campus, and which holds about 600 people, and every year they put on a musical. And, it’s a proper production and they borrow £20,000 from the uni, it’s on for a week, and the idea is that you, you have to make it profitable. So Katie was involved in that every year. And the last year she actually produced the musical, which was Oklahoma!. She didn’t sing in it, but she decided it

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 133 would be good for her to know that side of things. And that in fact is where she met Will Young, Pop Idol, because Will sung the lead, which is now where she’s living, with Will, and they’re great friends. They’re all, both of them have...when like on Boxing Day, the children that came over, all of them they’ve known since they were at school, and they still have great...it’s a great, university, I think, you make friends for life, don’t you, really. No, I’m very lucky, they’re, they were the kind of kids, I can’t ever remember having to say, ‘Look, you’re not doing enough.’ It’s usually, most of the conversations we have are about, ‘Do you think I’m doing the right thing to achieve what I want to do?’ They’re both very busy kids.

You talk as though, in a way you’ve been principally responsible in bringing them up.

Well...

Taking them to school and...

Well that’s not true. It’s... We... Remember that I, when I split with my ex-wife, they were ten and fifteen, which I was absolutely traumatised about at the time, and, I had a little bit of counselling at that time to sort of, sort things out. And one of the things I remember the counsellor saying to me is, ‘Look, just because you don’t live with them any more, doesn’t mean to say that you don’t, you don’t have a wonderful relationship with them.’ So I think, and in a way I think it was good for me, and them in a way, that I think I was... I was always there for them, but I’m not sure I did enough things with them. And I think not living with them made me realise that, well to do more things with my children, spend more time with them. I was always working. I was always there, but not really...you know, so it was... So I think I’ve always, I’ve made a special effort since then to make sure I do have, you know, good relations with them. They would spend every other weekend with me, come on Friday, might take them home on a Sunday or something, I’d take them to school on the Monday. And, we would always have dinner every Wednesday evening, and it’s still a tradition we’re trying to do now. It’s been a bit difficult because Katie has been working evenings doing her fitness training, but we will go back to having our supper once a week, always think it’s a good idea, you talk actually when you’re out, away from home. So, when the kind of divorce thing happened, not wanting to go into this

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 134 too deeply, I had to be the stable one. You know, that was just the way it worked out. I think they, particularly Katie, needed that sort of, to know I was always going to be there for her. Yes.

And what’s...

And she’s pretty much lived with me since she’s been sixteen. I won’t go too deeply into that, but I needed...she... So even more with her. She’s lived with me, you know, although she went round the world after A’levels, the year off thing, and then went to uni, I’ve always... I mean I know she thinks of me and home in the same way. And in the last two years their mum’s lived in Spain anyway, so, you know, I just make sure I’m there for them. And I’m very lucky, I mean I appreciate that.

And what sort of things would you do with them when they came at the weekend?

Well, Katie...Lucy was fifteen, so, mostly she’d want to see her friends, but she’d come home to me afterwards. Katie was ten, and we’d go, we’d go to the cinema. A lot of Saturday nights we’d go to Ed’s Diner, and then go... I hate Ed’s Diner. (laughs) I’ve never been a great hamburger person. Then we’d go and see a film. I told you the story of taking the two to the Royal Academy to see the Op[sic] art exhibition. We’d go to Primrose Hill for the firework display. Or, I’d just get videos, you know. She, she just, you know, I think wanted me to, to be there for her really, yes.

And where...

I found it quite difficult at times to sort of, every weekend try and... You know, Time Out was good, you could find a, you know, events that were going on. We’d go to a museum or we’d go to, wherever. I’d try and make it interesting for them. And Katie...Lucy was easier because, she’s fifteen, coming on for sixteen, and had all her girlfriends and boyfriends and, you know, so, I didn’t want to stop her having her, ‘Oh I’ve got to be with Dad this weekend,’ you know. I’ve never wanted to put that pressure on them. But when you’re ten, eleven, you are with an adult aren’t you? And so, yes, a lot of the times, Katie and I are doing something on a Saturday;

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 135 sometimes I’ll be picking Lucy up somewhere from, you know, being out with her friends, dancing or whatever they do, you know. Twelve o’clock, I’m sitting outside waiting for them to come out. Yes, OK, off we go. Often with Katie asleep in the back of the car. But... As I say, that little bit of counselling helped me enormously, I did it for about six months, particularly dealing with them. Because I had...I was married for twenty years, it was a very good, happy marriage, and then it all just went pear-shaped. So... And, I needed to be the stable one. It wasn’t a conscious decision, it’s just sort of how it worked, particularly for Katie.

And did you want to be the stable one?

[pause] Did I want to be the stable one? [pause] Well I don’t want too much... My ex-wife wasn’t behaving very well, you know, about everything, about, she was doing that awful thing, she didn’t want our marriage to break up, but also wanted the person that she had met, and she wouldn’t agree on anything. She actually had a serious sort of midlife crisis and lost it for quite a while. It’s like dealing with somebody else. So if you’ve got someone who you can’t even really have a logical conversation with, there wasn’t much choice, you know, there are things you have to sort out, you know, where everyone’s going to live, what’s going to happen about the house, what’s going to happen about the money, and, she, she used to sort of, renege on everything we decided, and, she...so she was a bit of a, she...as I say, a serious midlife crisis. So, there wasn’t much choice really, someone has to sort it out. It wasn’t often what she wanted, but, you know, I was worried about my kids more than anything else.

And how did you find your counsellor?

Around...when I finally... 1989 when it all happened, which was the worst year of my life, I left home for a while, and then I went back again. And, the last time I went home was round about September of ’89, thinking that we would make a go of it, and after a month it was obvious that nothing changed at all. And then I decided I had to leave, but I stayed till Christmas because of the children, and then I finally left home. And then, that’s when I was seeing the children. For a while I used to go home to spend the weekend with them, and she wouldn’t be there, and I...that was, I found that really traumatic. So I changed that. Like, just that was a massive row, ‘What do you

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535A Page 136 mean, you’re not coming home,’ and all that kind of stuff. And then around the spring of that year, ’90, I met someone I really liked. And it was really through her that, she persuaded me to go. It was one of those situations where you say, ‘Look, I’m going to make the appointment,’ because I was very anti counselling, ‘and just go once. If you don’t like it, you know, don’t go again.’ So, I went, and, very nice woman called Elizabeth, Elizabeth Rockefeller[???]. And, it was just somebody away from all... You know, the nice thing about counselling is, you know, you get so much advice from all of your friends, who are all trying to be very nice and supportive, but it’s somebody removed from the whole situation that is...I didn’t realise the value of that. And, just, just the thing of dealing with your children, I was a bit lost, you know, what do I do? And that was absolutely invaluable. I think it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done, had six months’ counselling. I think everyone should do it once in their life. So it was good.

What do you think were the reasons why you didn’t want to go initially?

I never believed in it. I thought, oh, you know, counselling was because you’re an idiot and you can’t sort it out yourself. Probably a stupid sort of macho bloody thing, you know, don’t need counselling, you’re not barmy, you know. And I didn’t, as I say, I didn’t realise the value of, obviously these people who have been trained to get things from you, and, you know, I didn’t realise that counselling was actually, you help yourself. In my opinion, it’s quite a brave thing to do, because you often are opening up a can of worms and you’re dealing with things. I remember being amazed by, you know, she said to me, Elizabeth, ‘Well look, I do believe in Freud and Jung and all that, but not totally, but we will need to talk about your childhood for a bit.’ Starting to talk about that, and getting amazingly upset. I hadn’t...I thought I’d dealt with all of that, and, what I’d done is survived it, like we all do, and I was surprised how... It made me understand how what had happened in my childhood had affected how I behaved in my marriage, things that I’d done wrong. That was the other thing, I wanted to find out why after all that time. You know, we were known as the perfect couple, and, you know, it was a shock to everybody that we actually split up. And I needed to know why. So... And I think, everybody should have, is[???] responsibility, everybody should do, because I think you, when you then go into another relationship, or deal with other people, you know a bit more about yourself.

I’m sure it won’t make me any the wiser at the end of the day, but it does, I think it does. (laughs)

[End of F14535 Side A] [F14535 Side B]

Did you talk to Marion about your marriage at all?

Yes, quite a bit. She... But not... I think I still was carrying on doing what I’ve always done with my family, you know, the diplomatic thing, didn’t want to upset her too much, but, yes, she would just, you know, I would tell her what was going on, but we didn’t have hours on the telephone. I think I spoke more later to a person that I met that, you know, I went to see her all the time and we would talk about it. And, as I said earlier, I think, the good...the nice thing about your friends is, they’re really supportive, but there comes a point when you really can’t, you feel like, I can’t drain these people any more. And that’s when I had the counselling, which was just once a week, which I found was enough actually to get my side of it. And there’s so much to do anyway when you’re in that situation, dealing with solicitors, plus, I was working, you know. Work, I suddenly realised that work was in a way a saviour, I had a reason to get up and get on with it, and make sure that the kids were OK. I think you get enough energy from that really to, to not drive your friends and family mad.

So, do you think you’re still a diplomat?

Oh yes, absolutely, I still don’t like rocking the boat. I think I’m better at saying what I want than I used to be. But, yes, I don’t like upsetting people. I hate it if I have to fire someone, it’s a nightmare. Yes, and I... Yes, I’m very proud of the atmosphere we have at Smile for instance. It is a kind of family business in a way, you know, everybody who works there, we’ve trained them, most of them have been there since they were eighteen. And I’m used to young people. Yes, and I, it’s a...people who have left and come back for some reason always say the same, that it was a wonderful atmosphere to work in, and, you know, both Keith and I are very proud of that. So yes, I think I do, yes. (laughs)

And how do you fire somebody?

Usually start by apologising. (laughs) ‘Sorry mate, but, you know, this isn’t working out.’ I try now to, certainly when you employ someone in the beginning, to do that three-month trial thing, you’ve always got that to fall back on and say, ‘Look, it isn’t...it’s not going to work out, and,’ blah blah blah.

And why do you choose three months?

I think it, when you’re, certainly if you’re leaving school, you needed to be there and see if you like it, and get a good look at... I think legally it’s three months anyway, I’m not sure about that. But I think they need that long, and some...you know, especially if they’re really straight from school, they need quite a while to just understand what it’s like being at work. And then, if you’re really together you review it every month and sit them down, which we try to do, and say, ‘Now look, this is what’s happened, and, do you think you’ve been doing the right thing? I think you should be doing this.’ And try and put yourself in a situation where they can, you know, they’re not shocked by what happens, you know, you just fire them out of the blue or something, I don’t think that’s very fair. But if you, if you’ve always said, reviewed it all along, and you’ve told them what they’re doing wrong and why, and then, and given them a chance to say what they think about it, then that’s fair enough. And at the end of the three months you then... But there are definitely people who want to learn hairdressing. Lots of things you need, you have to be sociable. If you’re a bloke like me, you have to like women, which I do, I adore them, I much prefer to be with women than men. Just things like that which are very hard to know if you’re a child, you know, a kid from school. You need an interest in fashion or music, and, you know, it’s quite, it becomes quite obvious quite quickly if they are in the wrong job. And then occasionally you get people, which I think I said earlier, who just can’t do it, you know. (laughs) Have no... You know, it’s like trying to paint, they just can’t do it.

Are you always the one who has to do the sacking, or, or does Keith do it sometimes?

Well, the way our business has evolved is... Oh well we’re coming to the point where we’re talking about getting Smile sorted out. Keith is somebody who is very dyslexic, so, it just started...it’s just evolved that I run the business side of the things and he, you know, he, he gives equally as much as I do in a different way. He buys flowers for the shop, he will organise someone to design our Christmas card. And he does a bit of firing as well, but mostly I would do it. But we would talk about it first and then, yes. And I generally do most of the interviewing.

So, do you think that diplomacy actually is an important quality for somebody in hairdressing?

I mean you certainly, in the sense of, you know, at the end of the day, you get to know people terribly well, and they do tell you intimate things, you know, especially someone, like the weekend I’ve just had in Venice, I’ve known this woman for thirty- five years, so I would know about what her career is doing, she’s not married, but other people would be, about their children, the children will often become clients as well. So you get this weird kind of relationship. But at the end of the day, you are providing a service, which means, OK, you’re friendly with everybody, and you know them terribly well. Some of them I see socially, not many. But they’re coming to you because you do their hair, so that’s...so that’s, you have to understand that balance. I don’t mean, this sounds pretentious, a bit like being a doctor, you don’t go round telling, ‘Oh yeah, he’s got so-and-so wrong with him you know,’ and that kind of thing. You don’t... So, yes, if you like. You know, I’ve been in a situation, sometimes I’ve been out socially and seen one of my clients with somebody I know who’s not their husband or their wife, and I may know their wife, and, you don’t...you know, you need to know that situation. (laughs) So yeah, you can’t be a gossip. (laughs) Takes a long time to learn that. But I think in a way, thinking of my own background it’s quite easy really, because I think I’ve always been like that. (laughs)

How do you...don’t people worry about being overheard?

Well, again the way that, again when we come to talking about opening Smile, we used to play music, and quite loudly really, it was, you know. So you could certainly sit in a chair and the person next door... And the way that we designed the salon, I

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535B Page 140 think I said earlier, was, when you sat down, you didn’t feel like you were in a row, you know, I hate those hairdressers I see sometimes. Row of chairs and they’re all next to each other. No, you could, you could have a fairly intimate conversation if you wanted to, without being overheard. And, you know, that whole area of, if people are coming to you about how they look, and we all care about how we look, you know, we, we might say we don’t but we all want to look the best we can, but, you know, whichever image of yourself you may have, that becomes intimate, you need to know a bit about people to, you know... A classic example is someone who’s, say, on TV or whatever; you need to understand their image a bit, and you know, they...we all play the game of image don’t we. So, but because you’re privy to that situation, then I think you do become, it becomes a fairly personal relationship. But to a certain level. You still at the end of the day, you know, I’ve had the situation with some members of staff saying, ‘Look, OK, at the end of the day, they’re coming to you to have their hair cut, and although you’re very friendly with them, remember there can be a point where you, it’s wrong to be more intimate or friendly.’ You need to know that. So I suppose, yes, it’s a diplomatic job. And you’re listening all day to, you know... You talk about yourself as well, but, mostly people, you know, they talk about themselves. It’s their relaxing time. You’re doing something nice for them. It’s a joy to please people in that way, you know, because, and they out feeling happier, which is really nice. I like that side of it.

With clients that you’ve been with for a long time, how do you discuss their changing image with them?

Usually it’s, it can happen both, several ways, two ways certainly. One is that they, it’s obvious that they’re, you know, they’re fed up with the way they look, you know, ‘I’m fed up with my haircut, I really...come on, let’s do something else.’ Or, you suggesting it, saying, ‘What about, let’s try and do something, you know, let’s try and just cut it shorter, you know, I think...’ Colour’s a big situation in that way, you know, if people are becoming more grey; you cannot hang on to the same formula that you had when you were twenty, and you’re now hitting forty or something. And, again, you’re... I mean that’s my job, you know, it’s what our job is, to say... You know, and also there’s the thing of, if you don’t do that, they’re going to go somewhere else, you know. Quite rightly so. So, it’s one or the other. And some

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535B Page 141 people like to change their image a lot, you know. And you, you need to understand how much they mean by that, and that’s a... You know, we have a rule at Smile, when, if it is a new client, you don’t cut their hair... The first thing you do, you sit them down and talk to them, quite a long time about, about them and about their hair and what they want done and what you think they should have done. And you make it very clear what you’re going to do. And I may have said before, there’s a trick when I teach them, if someone’s got long hair and you’re going to cut it, say, jaw length, and it’s down past their shoulders, you actually show them in the mirror the length you’re going to cut it, and try and shape their hair before you even cut it and show them what they’re going to look like. So they’re very clear what you’re going to do. And the other reason for that is, is that they’re not going to be upset when you’ve done it. (laughs) And... I try to, even now, with all my, even though I’ve known them for years, before I cut their hair, I...before they’ve been shampooed or whatever, I say hello to them. What I’m doing when I’m saying that is, saying hello to them, but I’m also trying to get an image as though I haven’t seen them before, which is, you know, you know what...I know what I want to do by doing that. And also, I like to see their hair a bit, how was it, did it behave well, and you know, and if they say, ‘Well this bit was sticking out a bit at the back’ or something, I want to see why. You know, because that’s, why is that hair behaving badly? That’s mostly to do with the haircut.

And are there sort of gender differences between how clients worry about their hair?

You mean to men and women? No, there are some men, it’s much better now, but certainly in the beginning, who would find it difficult to...you know, the macho bit. There are some men who, there are some men who are real old tarts who want to definitely talk about it, and there are some men who say, ‘Oh I just want it tidied up,’ and, you know, don’t want to really tell you what they want, because they think it’s a bit effeminate or, whatever, to say those things. And again, that’s the skill of you, the hairdresser, to make them feel relaxed. And within a short time they’re telling you the same as everybody else. And, again the same thing, it’s exactly the same, understanding what their image is. You know, people, I don’t think we ever really see ourselves, all of us; I think we think we do. So you need to... And there are some men who really don’t do... Their wives have sent them in, you know, ‘You’ve got to

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535B Page 142 go to Leslie, you’ve got to go to Keith, he’ll sort your hair out,’ and you do. Then it becomes more of a matey thing. But you still have to provide that, you’ve got to do it right.

And what about celebrities, like Cilla Black?

It’s funny actually, because she’s just brought out her autobiography, and, you know, a lot of people think she’s looked the same over the years, but if you look through the photographs, she’s changed...(laughs)...quite dramatically. With somebody like her, you know, she’s got a strong idea of herself anyway, there have been occasions with, with her and people like her, where she’s said to me, ‘I want to be blonde,’ and I’d say, ‘No, there’s no way I’m going to do that.’ There are those times when you think, look, this isn’t going to suit you. Now I remember her coming back from a holiday in Barbados and she hadn’t worked for two months, and she always used to have that sort of marmalade colour type hair, and in the sun she’d gone quite blonde. So, ‘I really like it.’ And I said, ‘Well it doesn’t suit you.’ (laughs) You know, I think you have to...your exp... Yes, that’s my job too. And so, yes, with her, we’ve permed it one time, and that would have been my idea, and we’ve changed it after two weeks, it didn’t look good. (laughs) So that happens. But I think if you, if you are, if they trust you... You see there are times when it’s an experiment, and you say, ‘Let’s see what it’s like, you know, we’ll try it.’ Yes, I think, in terms of fashion, and dealing with your clients, or, someone who is a celebrity or otherwise, it is doing the right thing at the right time. You know, [inaudible], you’re not old-fashioned, in boring terms, but, you know, you’ve got to be doing the right thing at the right time. And there are people, you know, I mean during the Seventies, one of our clients was Elton John, and, Keith’s client, and that was a time when we started doing Crazy Colour. Now someone like him wanted to have, you know, who wanted to look different, who wants blue streaks in his hair or whatever, so that’s, you need to understand that. And then I think earlier, people like Michael Parkinson who’s been a client since 1970 I think, you know, I’ve recently, in the last year, cut his hair very short, and that makes him look sort of, modernish man, and you know, and he’s got an image to promote. And in that circumstance, there would be a conversation, not in a big way, because Michael’s still a real boy from Barnsley, you know, say, ‘Come on Michael, do you think we should...?’ ‘Yes, let’s try it shall we?’ ‘OK.’ And then we’d do it. So that

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535B Page 143 would be more of a chat about it. And there are other people who, perhaps like you said earlier, designers or whatever, who are very much thinking about fashion, because they’re doing it all day long, who want something that’s very, making a statement. And that could be the colour or it can be the haircut. And all of that, you’d need to understand. I think, I’ve been doing it for such a long time, it’s not difficult. And I think also what happens in hairdressing is, you end up with a clientele that is, that you have an empathy with, you know. And there are, there are times at Smile where, you know, I’ve actually said to people, ‘You should go to one of the other people,’ or, I’ve had it like a lot with, with my children’s friends, who I’ve known, like the ones I said who were here on Boxing night, I’ve known since they were at school, is, I feel a bit odd doing their hair, so, they go to, Delta, go to, you know, and they do, you know.

Sorry, where do you tell them to go?

To go to other members of the staff rather than me.

Oh right, at Smile.

I didn’t mean another shop, no. (laughs) There was occasion when we did do that, and I’ll tell you about that later, at the beginning of Smile. Yes. So... And it’s very... So you do... I mean, you’d end up really with the sort of clients who like basically what you like doing, as far as their hair is concerned.

Actually, how did you respond to Katie and Lucy having boyfriends?

Having boyfriends? Respond. Oh I...no I’m not a Victorian father at all, no. I mean I’ve, I’m usually in the situation where they’re telling me the most intimate things that I’m not really...sometimes I don’t want to know. I’ve not been in the situation where either of them have had a boyfriend that I really disapprove of. I’ve been in the situation where I think they’re not right for them, and that’s always quite tricky.

What do you say?

[pause] If I think that... If they ask me, because I think you mustn’t sort of, say you don’t like them, not that I’ve not liked them, then I would say what I think, and why, you know. You know, ‘Are you sure he’s the right one for you, because...’

And what sort of thing would it be?

There was one time when Lucy had a boyfriend who I thought was a nice guy, but a real kind of, bloke’s bloke, and, and she was sort of, saying that he, you know, he finds it very difficult saying sort of, nice, intimate things, kind of thing. And I know that that’s something that she needs, needs. And so I said to her, ‘Well I think he’s really nice, but I don’t...’ And then, when...she did at the time, saying, ‘Well he is trying to change,’ and I would say to her, ‘That it doesn’t happen. He might try but you usually go back to the kind of person you are, the basic traits in your personality don’t change.’ What happens is, you learn to understand them and try to cope with them, but that doesn’t change. That kind of thing I mean. But I haven’t had a situation where they’ve had a, you know, junky boyfriend or, that I’m worried about, that kind of thing. But I would say, yes.

And how would they have found out about sex?

[pause] I would have... I think, certainly Lucy would have had more, learnt more about that with her mother. They... Though they could, I’m sure they could have... Yes, they would have gone to her I think more than me at that time, when they were younger. And that wasn’t a problem. Yes.

Do you know if they had any sex education at school?

I can’t remember them having. No, I don’t think they did. I think it was very much from their parents.

You mentioned sort of, that it was, it’s your sort of role at Smile to interview staff.

Mm.

Could you describe what would happen during an interview with a potential person?

Yes. It’s quite interesting actually, because, when we were getting Smile together, David, Keith’s brother, who I think I also mentioned earlier was a management consultant, he was very...he actually... We were talking about doing it; he actually said, ‘OK, what are you going to do about it?’ And helped us get a plan together to how to do it, which I think I should say more about later. But, he asked me how I interview people, and I said, ‘Well, they come in, I just talk to them, and, you know.’ And then he said, ‘Well let me sit in with you and see, you know, what you do.’ And so, he sat with me, and I interviewed a junior from school. And then, he told me what I did wrong. (laughs) Which was that, I did too much talking. So what I now, what I now try and do, because of David, is to, I try and get them to talk, you know, if they’re straight from school and they’ve got a, a CV, and I say, ‘Oh you’ve done this project. Well tell me about this project.’ Because obviously what you want to find out is what kind of people they are. And, that was just, it’s quite invaluable experience for that. So if they’re from school, I’ll be asking them about something they’ve done at school. I might ask them what music they like, what they do in their spare time. I’m really looking to see if they’ve got an interest in fashion or...and for me it’s music as well, which we’ve said earlier, street fashion and pop music. And I’m trying to find out most of all if they’re sociable, and have some artistic aspirations. You know, they’re not, I mean they’re, certainly, some of the, some of the kids who come for interviews now who are inner London educated, it’s...it’s really sad. They don’t seem to have any aspirations. And coming from that working-class council estate background, I know what it means. And they’re really, some of them are seriously unemployable, don’t have any aspirations. And some are there just because they’ve been to the Job Centre and they have to go for an interview, they have to prove that they’ve tried to get a job. That’s really sad.

So you use the Job Centre, do you?

I have done, I don’t any more. Because, I can’t think of one person that’s been successful. And always in the past, it’s been people who know abut Smile, who, you know, they’re...one of the hairdressers, their cousin’s brother wants a job, and, you know, he could be good. And that’s usually how the best people have come along.

Not... In the early days of Smile, when we had a massive amount of publicity through the pop music thing, you know, there was a time when Keith had a credit on Roxy Music’s album, the first one that came out with, for cutting Brian Ferry’s hair. I think that was the first time that ever happened. And we used to get a massive amount of people. So I think a lot of young kids would connect Smile with music and pop music and that’s how they’d want to come to work there. We still have that kind of, not, probably not quite so powerfully. (laughs) I mean there was a point when I had a waiting list, and, you know, if a job comes up, you know, I’d have a whole list of names. But I was having a conversation with Keith the other day, it’s interesting who’s coming in to hairdressing now, and I may have said to you, we now have five Lithuanian girls who are adorable, and, if you think of the history of hairdressing, it’s nearly always been maybe connected with immigrants really. When I left school it was a very Jewish business. I believe this is happening in the black community now with black hairdressers, and, I don’t know what happens in the Asian one, it probably is though. You know, that hairdressers come through that background.

But, sorry, immigrant backgrounds?

Well...

Even black and Asian?

When, you know, like the people who, that I worked for when I left school, both of them were... I don’t know whether they were actually first generation immigrants, but their parents would have been immigrants. And, you know, a lot of Jewish people went into the fashion world, you know, the schmatte business as they would have called it, making clothes, or hairdressing. You know, when I think of now, like these Lithuanian girls that we have coming over, it’s, it’s...they’re doing...they seem to be doing it too.

And was Leonard Jewish?

He never said he was. (laughs) Because, when it was the Jewish New Year, there were very few of us working that day, he was working, and I was working and Keith

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/07 F14535B Page 147 would be working, and a few of us, but most of them were not, you know, they had to take that day off. And most of the Jewish boys there thought he was Jewish, but he never owned up to it. I don’t know why. (laughs) It really didn’t matter very much. Mm.

Because what...what did Keith and he have their row about?

I can’t remember exactly. I’ll let Keith tell you, I hope that he will tell you himself. There was this room at the top of the house, and we did use to play music there. I thought...oh that’s right, I think he thought the music was too loud, and it wasn’t kind of chic enough and, something like that, I can’t remember exactly. But again, it was the same thing for him as it was for me, we were moving away from that, you know, that very smart, haute couture thing, and, I think I’ve already said, you know, I was the one who, through Cathy and my contacts, that any of the pop world would have gone there I’m sure.

[End of F14535 Side B] [F14536 Side A]

.....you actually decided to, to sort of go it alone and leave Leonard?

I can’t remember the exact decision, or, or a... We were talking about it for a while. As I said, we were sharing a flat then with Keith’s brother in Putney. And, I think we would have conversations, you know, if I... We didn’t...weren’t always socialising together, but we’d often go to the same clubs or, and had the same group of friends, and we’d talk about work obviously and what we, what, you know, and we had the same aspirations about what we thought we should be doing. And then, Keith was fired from his job at Leonard’s. By then he was running the men’s section, I think I’ve already talked about that. And then he, that, I think, thought, OK, you know, we really must get this together. And we were very lucky having Keith’s brother living with us, who was a management consultant. And, so we would say, ‘Yes, we’re going to open our own business,’ and then he would actually say, ‘OK, what are you going to do about it? You know, you’ve got to find the money, and you’ve got to set it up.’ And, he was jolly good. We would sit round and talk about it, and he would

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536A Page 148 draw up a plan, even to the point we’d have like, a few little minutes of the meeting, and, ‘Right you’ve got to do that this week, and you’ve got to do that this week.’ And I think that helped us tremendously to, to actually get it together.

Can you remember any of things that were on those lists that you had to do?

That I had to do. Oh God! it’s such a long time ago. (laughs) I remember, what I can remember, thinking, oh Christ! I’ve got to do this now. (laughs) I’ve actually got to get this together. Well, you know, first thing was how, how are you going to finance this thing? I didn’t have any money at all. So, I’d borrowed some money from Cathy, and, so I had to sort that out. And then, Keith had to borrow some money from his brother I think. And then we, we...so that had to be done. And I’ve always hated asking anyone to lend me money or whatever. I paid it all back of course. And she was only too pleased to help.

Why didn’t you go to a bank?

I don’t think I had a good enough reputation, you know... And as well I think I didn’t really know enough about business to think, right, OK, you can borrow money from a bank. I did a bit later. And then, then there were things like, OK, who’s going to design this shop? And then look for a premises as well. And, looking for a premises was easier for Keith because, he had gone to work for Scissors I think it was in the King’s Road, but only a place to work while he was trying to get his own place together. So he had a bit more free time than me to go to find a premises. And then we talked about where it had to be, so we had a few choices. And then we found the premises in Knightsbridge.

And what were your choices do you think?

Well it had to be in, in the centre. We’d have taken somewhere like King’s Road, or... Certainly not in Mayfair, which, where we were working anyway. And Knightsbridge was absolutely perfect, we were by a tube station, just along the road from Harrods. Although that might all sound alien to me saying we need to get away from all that, but you do have to be central, it does have to be... At that time particularly. I think

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536A Page 149 now you could, you could do the same thing, it wouldn’t have to be...it could be in lots of places in London, you could have done it now, but at the time I think we needed to be in the middle. So we found the premises. Both of us had managed to get, I think it was £3,000 each. Then we realised we didn’t have quite enough money, so we actually invited someone else to join us, a guy called Paul, Paul Owen, who came in with us as a partner to begin with. So there were three to start with.

And where did he come from?

He had also worked at Leonard’s for a little time, with Keith in the men’s department, but had left there some time before. And then it was... I did manage to get, like an overdraft facility with the bank, so that we had like £1,000 I think it was that we could overdraw of. And we worked out what we needed to run the shop, what the rent would be, and that we, we had three months, and that either we weren’t going to be there, or it would work.

So how, you can you remember how much the rent was?

No. I’m sorry. Oh God! no, I can’t. I really can’t remember. We had a fifteen-year lease, with five-year rent reviews. And it had been a hairdresser’s, but it hadn’t, no one had been in it for about eighteen months and it was... It was a front-door premises on the, on the main drag of, the same side of the road as Harrods, but more towards Sloane Street, opposite Bowater House, opposite the Scotch House. And then you walked up... You opened the front door, walked up this staircase, and then you kind of, almost arrived in the middle of the room, it was quite a, it was nice, 1,000 square feet, and with windows all along one side which was really nice. And then, it was designing it. I can’t remember how we found John Cairns. Oh he was, Keith was cutting his hair, that’s right. That’s exactly how we got him. So we would have regular meetings with him, to try and design the... Yes, we, and we had little rules that we wanted, I think I said to you, about people not sitting together and not in a row, that when you sat down... We were probably more aware of that because we were going to be, the first time we’d be sitting men and women together. And I remember talking to friends, saying, ‘Do you think that’s going to work?’ you know, ‘Would you be happy in that environment?’

And what was the response?

Everybody said yes. I think sometimes they were being polite. (laughs) But, you know, we just, in the end you just do it, don’t you, you’ve got to get on with it. And, the three of us sat down, and we came up with this design with John Cairns, which I think I explained to you was this wonderful white floor, and using scaffolding as, and building the whole, sections where you sat out from the scaffolding base, which looked, it looked like a Meccano set. And, when I think of it now, it was really quite forward-thinking, a lot of designers now like, you know, that kind of, iron and using more industrial type of things for design. So we were doing that. We needed to arrange an opening party, and invite everyone to come to that. I remember we had projects every week, and David was excellent, because he would say... And also... ‘You haven’t done that, why haven’t you done this?’ you know, and it was, certainly what I needed, and, and Keith’s even worse than me about that kind of stuff. And then we, we opened, which was very nice. We had a wonderful publicity. At that time one of my clients was Anna Wintour. So we had, I think it was called News on Camera, which was the inside page of the Evening Standard; the Sun did a thing, and two of our clients, Adam Faith and his wife, sitting together having their hair cut. I was quite shocked by how much publicity we had, I wasn’t expecting that at all. And, I remember going to see Leonard and saying, ‘Look, I’m going to open my own business,’ and in hairdressing, if you announce that, you leave there and then. So we opened about two weeks later, and I had time to also do more running around finding things. That was exciting, it was great fun. And, and I was also shocked by... I didn’t have any of my clients’ telephone numbers or, any of those kind of things, so they wouldn’t know where I’d gone. I was shocked...

Why was that?

Well you, you... I wouldn’t... You wouldn’t... If you were seen taking people’s telephone numbers from your clients, your boss would say to you, ‘Oi, what do you think you’re doing?’ you know. Why are you doing that? Some of them I knew socially, obviously, like, the Cathys and the, and Cilla Black and the clients that I had. Barbara Hulanicki knew I was opening a business. So they would tell other people,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536A Page 151 and so you’d sort of... And I had a massive clientele by then, I mean, you know, I was booked up every day, working, I was sometimes booked up weeks ahead. But I, I didn’t really think that a lot of the clients who had come to Leonard, when I...there was no music being played, it was all very quiet, and the biggest thing of all was to not, we were not going to use rollers on anyone’s hair any more. So, a load of people who wanted you to put rollers in their hair, and we’d have the occasion sometimes when someone would come in, and say, ‘Look I’m really sorry, but, you know, we don’t use rollers,’ and they wouldn’t stay, we’d actually send them off to the Cadogan Club round the corner, say, ‘They use them.’ (laughs) We sound terribly arrogant, but, it wasn’t meant to be, but it really was...we just didn’t want to do that any more. So, that was... And it just took off, we were very lucky. After three months we were very busy, and, it was nice, I was shocked by, that it worked.

How did you tell Leonard that you were leaving, and what was, what was his response?

Well, it was a bit sad really. He... I don’t know, for some reason Daniel Galvin was there as well, I think I said, ‘Leonard, I need to talk to you.’ And we went, I think we went for a coffee in, near Upper Grosvenor Street, probably in South Molton – South Audley Street. And I said, ‘Look, I, you know, I’m starting up my own business. And didn’t say very much really, I think he actually did say, ‘Well, good luck to you, I hope...’ you know. And I, and I knew that I’d have to leave then. I didn’t even go back to the shop after gong out from the... I think it was after work one evening. But later he tried to sue Keith and I, and that really was very sad, yes, I didn’t like that.

Why?

We... I think why, without really knowing, was, I think he must have been getting really worried about everyone that was leaving too, you know, Michael and John, two of the guys who had started up Michaeljohn. You know, people were doing what I was doing, thinking, I want to get my own thing together. And I think he was probably thinking that if he tried to stop us, it might stop people leaving, I don’t know. What happened was, we employed a, a tinter, who had also worked at

Leonard’s but left them three months before. That we were procuring his staff. And, it wasn’t like that at all, but anyway.

Is that illegal?

I really don’t know, to be honest with you. I was quite shocked that this was going to happen. So, we got a lawyer. It actually went to the Crown Court in Knightsbridge. And we won by, purely because his lawyer had made, he hadn’t got his act together. It was never really quite clear whether we’d won or lost or not. But I was really disappointed, because, we didn’t open another Leonard’s, you know, people like Michaeljohn did, people like John Frieda did, people like Nicky Clarke have done exactly the same thing. This was completely different, I mean you know, we were doing a completely different business, and, not near his salon or anything like that. No I was very disappointed, because I had a good relationship with him, you know, I was grateful to be working there. And in fact recently a lot of people, the hairdressers I’ve just mentioned, have tried to help Leonard, because unfortunately he, he’s bankrupt now and he’s, he’s got all sorts of problems, you know, I wouldn’t feel I was able to help. At one point I thought I could send him some money, but not turn up and say, ‘Thank you mate,’ you know. You know, if he’d had his way, we would have been put out of business after three months, which would have been, I would have been very upset about. Anyway, we won, and we carried on, which is good.

But, but why do you feel you actually couldn’t even go back to, to Leonard’s after you told him that you were leaving?

It’s, it’s what happens in hairdressing.

So there’s no, you don’t have to work out your notice or anything, there’s no...?

No, because, the reason for that is, if you’re working out your notice, you’re then telling people you’re leaving, you know, what you’re doing. Yes, obviously. And, if you were caught doing that, they’d fire you anyway. So, you know that... It’s the same, it’s happened to me as well, not very often, that people have left and opened their own thing, and they know, you go, you leave then, because you’re going to

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536A Page 153 procure all your clients otherwise aren’t you. And you can’t have people working for you saying, ‘I’m leaving,’ I mean, if you’re leaving, fine, OK, go, you know, that’s pretty much...it’s what happens. Mm. I think one of the sad things is, that, you know, in my time at Leonard’s, you know, I was very close to John, of Michaeljohn, at one time even he and I were talking about maybe doing something, but not really...(laughs)...is, you don’t see them afterwards. It would be very difficult for me to walk in to Michaeljohn and say, ‘Hello Michael, how are you?’ you know, you just don’t do it.

Why is that?

I think, I think it’s probably a tradition that started that, you might pinch some of their ideas, or they might pinch some of yours, or... It’s probably different now, but... It doesn’t happen, I know it doesn’t happen, not just for Smile but for... You know, I have very few friends who are hairdressers, other than the ones I work with and Keith. You know, you don’t do it.

[inaudible]... Sorry. You were saying they all left later, after you, they left [inaudible]?

No, Michaeljohn were before Keith and I. I think we, in my time we were probably the next, well, Keith had already gone, but I, I was leaving.

So why didn’t Leonard sue Michaeljohn then, Michael and John?

I don’t know. As I said to you, I think his reasoning maybe was that they’d gone eighteen months before or whenever it was, and then I was leaving, and how many more are going to leave? And maybe we should try and do something about it, you know, to stop people leaving. I don’t think I had a contract in those days, but, sometimes you, there were contracts certainly that people signed that you weren’t allowed to work within a mile radius, and, things like that. So... Obviously, because, you know, if someone’s taking away your business, it’s going to be difficult. I’ve always thought, if someone wants to leave you mate... (laughs) It’s terrible, you don’t want people with you who don’t want to be there. Yes.

And is the same true when you sack somebody?

If you...

Want them to go immediately?

Yes.

If you sack them.

Yes yes yes, it would be, exactly... You pay them what you owe them. If they’re supposed to work a month’s notice, well then you need to pay them a month’s salary obviously. But, or whatever the law is, I can’t remember exactly. I’ve got someone I can ring and say, ‘OK, what have I got to pay? Yes, OK.’ Yes, you leave immediately.

When you were designing the salon...

Yes.

...how important was things like, the sort of logistics of flow of, of, of hairdressing?

Well, one...we had certain problems, was that, you know, hairdressers at that time, in fact they’re still, the ones I see, most of them are still similar, a lot of them have an area where you have a bank of dryers, hairdryers that you sit underneath. We weren’t having those, we didn’t...so that was out. Then, there’s just this thing that I’d never thought of before, is how much space you needed at each unit. And I think, I think it’s a nine by six area, I can’t remember the amount now, but it’s the formula we used. You just think about when someone walks through the door, you know, in the case at Smile, the first one that was coming up the stairs, and what they’re going to see. Where you sit when you’re waiting to have your hair done, waiting to have your hair done, where the reception would be. So in that sense, you think of a, a flow. When we expanded Smile, it was a different problem, we then expanded to 2,000 square

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536A Page 155 feet, which I’ll tell you later, we wanted different levels. It’s quite nice sitting on different levels. And, also that you could stand anywhere in the room and you could see everything, which is quite nice. We weren’t doing the little cubicles, you know, private cubicles where you weren’t allowed to see what was going on. (laughs) We’re cutting hair, yes. And, again, the music we were going to play, which was, you know, people... Well, I think we were one of the first to do a sort of, one of the first to do that, you know, sort of... Well, no, it’s not true, restaurants were doing it I think by then maybe, they were playing music, weren’t they. I think if you went into a boutique, then you, they were playing music, in the late Sixties, they would be, wouldn’t they? Yes. But it wasn’t happening at Leonard’s for instance, you know, it wouldn’t be the right thing to do.

And what sort of music did you play, how did you decide?

Oh, that would be very, still is, everyone’s, you know, what’s the word when everyone chooses? (laughs)

Democratic?

Yes, thank you. Yes, it would be, I can’t remember, probably Neil Young at that time, that kind of stuff.

Wouldn’t you ever get fed up with any of the music?

We change it all day long. And, we have, had then and still have, a massive amount of people in the music business as clients, so, we, they would be bringing us in promotional tapes, or latest CDs or whatever. So we, there’d be sort of, that kind of new music to hear. I used to go to a lot of music concerts in those days. So yes, we...and Paul, the other guy, was very much into music as well. We certainly, the three of us shared all that. And it was a big part of the atmosphere when you walked in. It was probably too loud really. (laughs) But it was sort of, it was making a statement.

And what about, how did you go about choosing the seats and the mirrors and...?

Yes, that was interesting, because, the floor was this Amtico lino basically, just plain white. The scaffolding was obvious, and we just painted it. There were loads of, you know, wholesalers where you’d choose the chairs that you use. But we, each position where you sat and had your hair done, we had a, a sort of gold-leafed, antique mirror. So if you can imagine the industrial scaffolding...

And what colour was that?

Gold. With the gold leafing round, you know. The top, the just plain glass top, you know, the shelf in front of you. And, black chairs. And then we had...

What sort of, what sort of chairs? Because you had, you said, gilt sort of ones at Leonard’s, which were very impractical.

Oh, yes, no, these sere more, these were classic hairdressing chairs, you know, not, not... They weren’t hydraulic in those days, but they were... You’d buy them from a hairdressing wholesaler.

And what sort of...what would be special about them?

Well they’re just designed so that, you can brush the hair off easily, they’re comfortable. You know, one of the things you do when you cut someone’s hair is that, perhaps your hairdresser says the same, ‘Will you please sit up for me,’ rather than...(laughs)...you know. So sometimes[???] you get the wrong kind of chair, that, you can’t do that. You know, you’d be slouched or you... Sorry. You’d be slouched or you... The hairdressing chair’s designed so that people sit in the right position.

And did they go up and down?

No, not in those days, that was... You could buy the old-fashioned barber’s chairs that did go up and down, they were hydraulic. These were just, they didn’t do that. And then, again in order to section off various areas, but to also not section them off sometimes, we had some louver slat blinds that went, you know, diagonal, what’s that, up and down. (laughs)

Vertical.

Thank you. So you could undo those, then you could see what was going on. You could actually close it off as well. So we, we tried to keep the colouring section, you could section it off if you wanted to. And we...and I remember the conversation Keith and I and John Cairns had about, that really we wanted this space to be, like a studio, you could swap it around. You know, you could, you could change it a bit, it didn’t always have to be carved in stone, it stayed like that, you could section bits off, and you could make it look slightly different. I mean, if you were waiting to have your hair cut, we had this sort of swing chair, like a swing, that was suspended from the

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536A Page 158 scaffolding with chains, so you could swing on it. We thought that would be quite fun. pff It worked. (laughs) It was, it was nice to... It’s that moment when you’re thinking, OK, pff, you’ve got to put your money where your mouth is, you’ve got to say, ‘OK, we do want to do this different; how are we going to do it?’ And, yes, so it was, it was, it was...I liked doing it, it was fun.

But where do you think those, those, that sort of vision of that interior came from?

A lot of it was from John Cairns, it was, you know, it... I think it’s like everything, when you go to design something, or most people do, you find an architect or you find a designer you know, that you empathise with, and then you sit down and say, ‘OK, you know, what does this, what does this place have to say? What’s the ambiance, what does it mean, what does it...?’ And then, you’d think about... I’m sure the scaffolding was John Cairns’ idea. Because we wanted to, you know, we said, ‘Look John, when you sit down, you know, you don’t want to...we don’t want to feel that you’re sitting in a line.’ That was something Keith and I were very opposed to, you know, be stuck on a factory line. And when you’re sitting down, you feel that, although you are in an open space, you’re actually having an intimate relationship with the person who’s cutting your hair. And I think he came up with, I’m sure he did, this scaffolding thing, and it sort of... And then, how much space do you need? We actually stepped round a chair to work out how many positions you could have, and keep that situation where there was enough space for you not to be feeling that you’re sitting in a line next to people. The white floor, we...well, with...there are practical things, that if you are, if you go to a hairdresser’s, you are always going to have hair on the floor, so you need something that you can sweep easily away, you know, so it looks clean. The same with the tops, you know, with the shelves in front of you where all your brushes, all your combs would be, they need to be easily cleaned. And then, the mirrors with the gilt edgings all round, which, which looked antique basically, was really just to maybe soften it a bit. So, again, you know, try and make those a bit more... So... I can’t remember who came up with that, one of us would have said, ‘What about using that?’ you know, ‘Well that sounds good, yes, let’s do that.’ And then getting the drawings done and then, hoping it works. (laughs) Which it did.

So, so, sorry, he did do sort of drawings for you, to give you an idea?

John did. John Cairns supplied working drawings. And, not as good... Nowadays people with a computer can give you a, make, what’s it called, a reality picture, there’s a better word for them now. You couldn’t have... He did a few drawings like that, but, you had to imagine I think more than, you know, you could have these architect’s drawings, or designer, John Cairns’ designer’s drawings, but they were mostly pencil.

And who did the cleaning?

Who...?

Who did the cleaning?

The juniors. (laughs) What you do in hairdressing is, that’s your job when you start, and, we’ve all done it, I’ve done it. That’s your job, is to keep the floor clean, to make sure the right brushes are there for the hairdresser, I think we discussed that. And then in the evening you get a cleaner in, or after hours, who polishes the floor and keeps it looking nice.

[End of F14536 Side A] [F14536 Side B]

What colour were the towels and, and robes?

The robes we, we...again a bit at that time, the stuff you could buy, if you wanted a gown as we call them, were, really boring, you know, like nylon or... So we had kimono type gowns made. They were, they were, some of them were blue, some of them were red I remember. For some reason we didn’t have black, I can’t remember why, because I like black, but, so they were blue, and we had them made. They were literally like kimonos with a tie belt.

And who made them for you?

I’m really sorry, I can’t remember that. I’m sure Keith will remember. Because again we, the people we knew, there were quite a few designers anyway, so... I can’t remember who actually made it. We had them made, we got them, you know, specially made, they knocked them out for us, one of our designer friends, or someone learning to be a designer I’m sure. We’ve done a lot of that, like with our Christmas cards, using art students who, it’s nice for them to do a design. The towels, we, I think we’ve used the same company forever, a company called, they’re now called Lilyplan, but they were a laundering company, and we used to use, like, navy towels for people who were having colour, and white towels for people who were just having their hair cut.

And, the company delivers the towels and...

They laundered them, took them away, picked up the dirty ones, and brought us new ones.

And how often...

We did at that time I think have a little washing machine as well in the staff room at the back, just to sort of keep it going, so we’d have enough clean towels all the time. Again that would be the job of the juniors to make sure that those towels were washed and tumbled-dried and ready for... You need clean towels every time obviously.

So how, how often would you use the laundry?

They would make two deliveries a week. You know, I think, I think, I can’t remember how many towels, and that would, you know, when we got bigger we had about thirty-five staff at Knightsbridge, so we, we’d have a lot. Obviously we’d order more towels then, to, to regulate to how many people you were doing.

And what about the staff, and yourself, in terms of what you wore?

Well, that was another thing that was different, is, you know, at Leonard, you...I don’t think we, towards the last year or so, I don’t think we had to wear a tie any more, but we, our background there would be that you wore, certainly a jacket and slacks and a tie or a suit even. And I think I said to you, that’s when I was having all my suits made. We... I mean at that time I was wearing like, shirts from, say, Deborah and Claire, and Beads, and, black, yes, velvet trousers, and Cuban heel boots or something. Basically what we used to say to staff was, there aren’t any, there isn’t a uniform, but you do have to look sort of, clean. Not, not smart in the traditional sense. You can wear whatever you like, but it has to be sort of, you know, obviously, fashionable, and clean. So, I’ve just described roughly what I was wearing, and Keith would have looked pretty much similar. He later got into all sorts of different things. (laughs) I mean, there’s an old picture of the three of us I think I’ve shown you, you know, we could easily have been playing in a band or something, you know, the Bee Gees or something, we had long hair, that would be the look really. We didn’t have... I think even then, and I might be wrong, that if you were a junior working at Leonard’s, you, you wore an overall, you know, you wore an overall jacket or something. I could be wrong, but that would... He certainly wouldn’t have liked us turning up for work at Leonard’s looking like that. Yes, so they would wear jeans, T- shirt, that kind of thing, the juniors, or whatever. And, our receptionist first must have been[???] Carol, was a very fashionable person anyway, she’d have, you know, she’d look up-to-the-minute I suppose you would say.

And what was her background, where did she...?

Well, Carol had also worked at Leonard’s years ago. (laughs) But we, she was a great friend, we knew her socially, we knew her pretty much, not long after she left school, and she’d worked at Leonard’s. But I would see her socially as a friend. And she had left, oh a long time before. So we told her we were opening, and she said, ‘Oh I’d love to come as well.’ So, she was our receptionist. And she had done the job, she was excellent at the job.

What makes a good receptionist?

Pretty much what I was saying earlier. You know, in most hairdressers, it wasn’t quite in the first Smile, but the first person who greets you is the person on the desk. They need to be very friendly, they need to, not make mistakes with their bookings. Oh, and they...I mean Carol knew everybody on, their name, by their, by their voice on the phone. She would chat with them, ‘How are you?’ you know, ‘What are you up to?’ that kind of thing. And again, for her it was the same situation, it would have been much less formal than it would have been at Leonard’s, you know, where you’d have to say, ‘Good afternoon Madam,’ you know. If they chose to talk to you, that was OK. But, Carol was very much part of the team, you know.

So how...how would you address clients?

By then?

By then, at Smile.

Well, most of them I would know by their first name then. So I would stop calling them... I mean if I’d called them Sir, I think they would have thought I was going barmy. You know, ‘How are you,’ you know, ‘John,’ Mary or whatever. So it was all about things relaxed, you know. That was the whole point of doing what we’re doing, was that, you didn’t have any of that formal feeling there. But it did have a real energy of what was going on fashion-wise.

Because, you mentioned that you were called Mr Leslie...

That’s right.

...at Leslie Green.

Yes.

What, how were you referred to at Leonard’s?

I think, I think by then, that was going, you know, I’d just be Leslie. Yes. It’s amazing how many clients you’ve known for years who don’t know your last name. (laughs) If you do see them socially, they say, ‘Oh, this is Leslie... God! I don’t know your last name.’ (laughs) So I just use Leslie, yes. That was, you know...

And when they book, when clients book...

Mm.

...what, do they have their full name, or, or...?

What we do now is, we...yes, we... If we don’t... You need to, particularly, say, they’re having colour, mostly the receptionist would know who they are anyway, if they’ve been coming a long time, won’t need them to say their last name. But we always take a contact telephone number. And the thing is that, like at Smile, one of the juniors’ job is, working in the tinting room, would be to get out all the record cards for the clients who were coming n the next day, because, the record cards will say what their formula was, what colour they’ve had, when they were last in. And so that, the junior can get all those things ready.

And how long...

So you need to know that.

Sorry. How long...because you haven’t mentioned those before, when did that start, using sort of, client tinting records?

Oh, ever since I’ve been in hairdressing. You need to know what formula you put on their hair, you know, what tint you’ve used. They’ve all got numbers and so on, and you need to know that, so that you can check how it worked, and if it was the right colour and so on. And, like I said earlier, you, you can’t keep the same formula all the time, you know, you... If someone’s hair’s going greyer you need to change it. You need to know what you used before, how much, say, red, brown or blond you’re putting into it.

So each...I hadn’t realised that each time a person has their hair tinted...

We keep a record.

But also that it’s mixed up specially for them.

Yes. Yes, I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at colour charts. (laughs) When you go into a hairdresser, if you’ve not done the colour before, then, there are, you know, we use Wella, we use L’Oréal products for tints, so they’re the main two, they give you, it’s like a chart, just like a, a folder that you open, and in it will be all little pieces of hair with different colour on.

And how many might there be?

Oh God! I mean, there would be, it would go from a spectrum of black to blond, with all the shades in between, you know, dark brown, reddish-brown, medium brown, light brown, red, lighter red and so on. And usually what you do is, you mix more than one, might be several colours together. But the idea of these charts is for someone to say, ‘Wow, I really like that sort of colour,’ you know. And then the skill of course, if you’re the tinter, is to say, ‘No that’s too red for you,’ or, ‘That’s far too blond,’ or ‘It’s too ash.’ And often you’re putting a bit of one colour in with another. I mean particularly highlights now, we, I would say the average client has at least three different shades of blond, or you might mix red with that as well. You could be using three or even four different colours that you’re putting in.

So when, when you look at the colour that somebody chooses...

Mm.

...what are you thinking about in terms of, when you say what suits them? Is it their hair texture, or their, or something else as well?

Oh it’s many things. I’ve always, always, without me realising it, I always subconsciously knew that the colour you use should also be enhancing the haircut. Let me give you an example. If you’re doing a haircut, you know, like the last year we’ve done a lot of kind of, choppy looking, rough, you know, what’s her name, the actress? Anyway. You know, shaggy looking hair. Now, in order to enhance that situation, you would, you want to, mostly use like, highlights, which gives you a more separated look. If you were doing, like in the Sixties, a really smooth looking bob, you tended to keep more to one shade, you know, because it, it shows off the geometric haircut more. So, if you were doing a looser haircut, like we’ve been seeing in the last few years, shaggier looks, you would tend to using more highlights. And then this... So it’s the right tone for the person. If you, if you, if someone’s got a rosy complexion and you make their hair red, they can look ridiculous for instance. When people are going greyer, often their skin tone is changing too, which is why I was saying earlier, you generally need to change the formula, mostly to go light, lighter, than, they might, say, still be blond but you might even go slightly lighter when they’re going greyer. So you’re taking the design of the haircut. I think I just said earlier about Cilla, you know, wanting to be blonde. Forget, it, it would look awful. There’s that situation. So often when they’re choosing a colour from these swatches of hair, that I was explaining, you’re saying, ‘I really think that’s going to be too red for you. I think we should tone that down a bit.’ Or, ‘Why don’t you go slightly lighter than that,’ you know, or what [inaudible]. And, and also, mostly you can, if it’s not right, you know... Sometimes you get the situation where you’ve done the highlights, this person’s a bit scared, hasn’t had them done before. So, you know, well I would have thought, I would have liked to have done more colour than that. But, ‘OK, we’ll do it like this, because you are a bit worried about it, and then, wear it for a while, and if you think, you know, we’ll put some more in for you.’ Which is, that happens occasionally, with a new client. Once they trust you, you’re then in a situation of, you say to them, ‘Why don’t we do a bit of this, that would be great.’ And, and that often, that happens too.

You mentioned Wella and L’Oréal.

Mhm.

What were the products that you used when you opened Smile?

They would have been Wella and L’Oréal. They are massive companies, I mean they...I...they pretty much make products... I think all their products are sold all over the world, they are huge. And there’s another one called Schwarzkopf, the same, they’ve been around forever. I can’t remember how many countries, well I remember reading once, it was just massive. I mean it’s all over the world. And you, if you’re using those three big companies, you’ve pretty much got everything that’s available, you know, every, tinting product, colouring product.

And how, how would you find out about new things that they might produce?

They’re always trying to sell you new things.

Through a salesperson?

From one of the companies. They’re always coming along and saying, ‘Look we’ve just brought out this new range of colours.’ (laughs) And, you know, we are often looking for... One of the biggest occasions when we really had a problem, I think, I think Smile, as far as I know, was the first people to use what we call Crazy Colour, that would be like the bright greens and the bright blues; that was very hard to find. You know, in the beginning I think we were using ink to sort of get that kind of colour, which was not very successful because it washed out and it faded very fast. And there was one company that made the, where you could get these bright colours from, it wasn’t from Wella or L’Oréal, it was kind of a splinter little company, I’m sorry I can’t remember the name of. But then, you know, not many people wanted that, as far as I know no one really, no one wanted bright green hair or bright blue hair or whatever. And, so we had to look, really look for it. Now mostly, these big companies like Wella and L’Oréal, they’re very happy to come and demonstrate for you, and usually it’s one of their reps who comes in and says, ‘We’ve got this new range,’ and often we say, ‘OK, well send us some samples,’ and then we try it and see if we like them. But they’re all similar, you know, they’re not as dramatic as Crazy Colour was.

And did...

That was... Sorry.

No.

But that was interesting because, the way that we got round to doing, looking for Crazy Colour was, we had this idea of... Well I wanted to do some two-dimensional haircuts. You know when you... Or, you know when you do pencil drawings, when you can get dark and shading, light; it’s very hard to achieve that with colour, to get, you know, you do a bit but... And then we wanted to be more dramatic than that. And I, I remember cutting Anna Wintour’s hair. Did I mention this before? I can’t remember. No? She was someone, a really young, fashionable person. I think it was through her as a client that I got the write-up in the Evening Standard, I think her dad was the editor of the Evening Standard at the time. So I cut her hair, literally, it was like a, a bob shape almost, but then I re-cut the same shape in her hair, if you can imagine. So... I can show you with my fingers, you know, it’s like you cut the shape like that, and I re-cut that shape into her hair, to follow on. Which was, as far as I know hadn’t been done before. It was technically very difficult to do. And we have got some pictures of that actually I can show you one day. But it didn’t...it was nice, and it was dramatic, and it looked different, quite stunning as you can imagine, people used to stare at her down the road. But we thought, what would be easier, what would also enhance that situation more, is to do that with colour as well. And then along with that, then the Crazy Colour thing was happening, so we started doing a lot of it with Crazy Colour. It was easier to use, the colour, it grew out better. But... Yes it was interesting that, it was sort of trying to find new haircuts. And we did... And also, we did a lot of pictures at that time with friends who were photographers, one particular guy called Steve Hyatt. Again back to the thing I was talking about earlier of, we wanted these images to look more like street fashion, not that gap you get between looking in, say, Vogue magazine... There’s a gap between what people look like and what’s in those magazines. So we did some pictures with Steve of, using Crazy Colour, to enhance the shape of their haircut, which is always our thing. But they were...you know, one model I did was, she had kind of like a flick-up haircut and it was very short. And to make that flick-up look more, I cut it in a certain way, but

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536B Page 168 also, just the last bit underneath at the back, I tinted dark brown. So the top of her hair was blond, which made the shape look, yes, jump out, look much more dramatic. And that was just really nice, it was kind of new, we were trying to do different things, which was... I would never have been able to have done that where I was working before, people wouldn’t... You know, you had... That was what was nice about Smile, because of the atmosphere, there were people saying, ‘Yes, OK, come on, let’s do something different,’ which is really good. And, taking the pictures outside in the street, you know, Steve was, we went out to Hyde Park, in Knightsbridge, in the road. So you would see these people walking along, you’d get an image of the house behind, or, not a house, a shop behind. I suppose, the early days of that would have been Maret Ellen doing Young Idea Vogue, we wanted to have these pictures that looked like real people, even though they were quite extraordinary. And what was interesting at the time was, Vogue and all those people wouldn’t take, wouldn’t, didn’t like them at all, wouldn’t use them. It’s quite amazing now, it would have been much easier. We’ve always had that problem, this going to sound awfully conceited, certainly at that time, I don’t have that problem now because I’m much older, but we just did everything about two years before they were acceptable. There was a long...there was a time at Smile when Lynne Franks was desperate for our account. We’ve never had a PR, we don’t need a PR, you know, they don’t understand anyway. You do get fed up with taking pictures to Vogue and saying, you know... They just wouldn’t use them, they didn’t...or, not Vogue or any of them. You get the odd, well poppy magazines that would, but... Yes, we brought out our own range of products that we had made up for ourselves years before, and we couldn’t get them arrested, we couldn’t get anyone... Now, people want them, you know, the perfume companies, or the product company, use names now to sell things. But at that time we were really given the elbow, they wouldn’t come near us really.

So when did you launch your own products?

God!

Roughly.

It was some time in the Seventies, early Seventies. What we did was, we got a trichologist, we told him the kind of shampoos we wanted, we had our own conditioners and shampoos made.

So, could you say what it was that you said to the trichologist?

Yes. You know, because we weren’t putting rollers in people’s hair, and later we were doing more extraordinary things with colour and all the rest, I’ve just explained, one of the things we wanted to do was... What we were doing, this is different to, say, when I worked at Leonard’s... I’m sorry to keep...I don’t mean to be derogatory about Leonard, because it was a wonderful place to be. If you don’t put rollers in someone’s hair, we then developed a technique of blow-drying basically which you now see everybody do, but at that time, the only kind of blow-drying I’d ever seen done was with a...this is going to be hard for you to understand, but with a brush called a Denman brush which I mentioned earlier, so you just pulled the hair really straight. We started using round bristle brushes in order that you could still get volume in the hair without making it, without using rollers. And not using rollers meant that it didn’t look set, it didn’t look like you’d had a hairdo, you know. I now sometimes...I remember being in Devon about four years ago, walking, my girlfriend and I walking her dog, you know, looking, doing those lovely country walks, and going and looking in those little village shops, and these lovely old ladies who have got the bunch of curls at the back, and they look like they’re wearing hats. And in a way it was still going on that, that people still in hairdressing had the tradition of, of a hairdo. And I told you, I’d do a nice haircut, and then have to sort of backcomb the top, which for me like, wrecked the whole thing. So we weren’t doing any of that. So we... But at the same time you still want to be getting volume in people’s hair. So we devised this thing of using round bristle brushes to get the volume. And from that we then started using, you’d have a junior working with you whilst you’re drying who actually held the dryer, which allowed you to do even more work with the brush to get it... It’s very hard to explain that to you without demonstrating it. And I think, I think we developed that, I think that was our invention if you like. And inventions in Smile, is, you’re thinking about – in hairdressing, sorry, I’m saying Smile, is, you’re thinking about, how can I achieve this look, you know, how can I...? And then you think, well maybe if I did this, it’ll work, and that’s how we came up with the blow-

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/08 F14536B Page 170 drying thing, and later the Crazy Colour, and that came from, as I said to you, trying to do two-dimensional haircuts, and, you know, Keith particularly, I mean here again, he’ll tell you himself, when blokes started using really short haircuts, you know, like, a bit like they’ve been wearing the last few years, decided to start shaving shapes into people’s head, which was quite interesting. You know, and it’s from that, you think, OK, how are we going to achieve, how can I make that look better? And then you might use colour. And then, it was an exciting time for us, and it was sort of, well, buzzing.

What’s the relationship then between the design of brushes and hairstyles? Which...

The what?

You mentioned that there’s the round brush.

Yes.

Well, did that come, was that already a brush shape?

Yes.

I’m just trying to think what...

That’s interesting actually, I’m trying to think, as you speak that... You know, again, there were different brushes for different reasons. There were little brushes called postiche brushes when you’re putting someone’s hair up in a chignon, which was a bristle brush. So, you would have used it, you’d smooth the hair more. Then there was this Denman brush, which you could, went through the hair better. Bristle brushes tend to just smooth the top. So, when I said we didn’t invent a round brush, that was already available, but we started using it for a different reason. There was another famous brush at the time called a Mason Pearson, I don’t whether you’ve ever heard of that. Yes? And that...

I’ve heard of the brand.

Yes. It was, again if you remember... But the bristle brush allowed us to, you know, use the brush as though you were putting a roller in it, so you could, you could roll the hair over the brush as you were drying it, working it, with the hairdryer blowing into it. And then... But it, what was better about it than putting rollers in, it didn’t look set, it looked natural. And also we were...our clients, we were then not only giving them a haircut, but we were expecting them, only to see them again when they needed a haircut again. They weren’t coming in for blow-dries. There were some. But even now, ninety-five per cent of our clients don’t come in for a wash and blow-dry, they do it themselves. They come in when they want a haircut or they need the colour done. And that was different again then, because, you know, when I was at Leonard’s, I had standing appointments, I had the same clients every Friday who were coming in to have their hair set and, you know, even though, after I’d tried desperately to stop it looking set. That was a different technique. Yes, so we needed to change that.

And, sorry, I think you said that the...it was a bristle brush, the round brush.

Yes.

And so what was a Pearson Mason...?

Well that looked more like a Denman brush which, you know, would be... It was considered the best brush to use at the time. It was for some things, but it wasn’t for... If you wanted to brush your hair through, you know, like, take any tangles out and things, I would have suggested you had a Denman brush.

[End of F14536 Side B] [F14537 Side A]

So, what do you think is the relationship between sort of, hairdressing tools and styles?

Yes, I think, the history mostly of that is, I think, I’ve just explained that, I was using a bristle brush for a different reason than it had been designed for. And even if you think about tongs, say, you know, people use for straightening your hair, there are now flatirons, have you seen those? And they’re now ceramic. I mean in the Sixties for instance, people did use electric tongs to make their hair look a bit straighter. In fact what worked out, that was...it worked out being better to, to blow-dry it more. So, but I mean, electric tongs go back to, I remember when I was little and my mum used to have, they were called Marcel irons, that you heated over a gas, over the gas, made them hot and then twisted them round to make a curl in your hair. So tongs were really still basically that, although they were electric of course. There are now, there is now a look where people want really straight hair, so that those tongs have become flat irons, but they’re still the same actual, the technique, the technology is still the same. It’s amazing in the fashion industry that we’re still using the same tools basically. Scissors are still the same. There are thinning scissors which I’m sure you know of, have been modified a bit, and you can now get thinning scissors that you can use to chop bits out of the hair to make it give you that choppy look, as we’ve just explained about.

Sorry, could you just describe what thinning scissors...I think...

Thinning scissors?

I think I know, but future generations won’t.

If you look at a pair of thinning scissors, they’ve got one straight edge, and the other scissor, or the other side of it, has got like a series of teeth, cogs. And the idea of that was, if you hair was really thick, you could cut, you could comb a section of hair, work down the hair with thinning scissors, and take out as much hair, but you still kept the length. So you’d got the same length but you’d thin the hair out. They used to be used quite a lot when people were backcombing their hair a lot, because if you made the hair thin, it was much easier to backcomb. Although, even before that they’d use a razor, which I’ve never agreed with. And I rarely use thinning scissors in that way. I use them, I do use them for a different technique, when I just want to spike the ends out sometimes, by twisting the hair and then just thinning the ends.

And the skill with those is to know how much to thin them out. If you over-did it, and it grows... If you thin it too much, it grows badly, and you’re splitting the ends basically. But there are ones now that you can get which, those cogs are much bigger, so you could comb a section of hair, and if you want it to look really choppy, you’d choose how far down the hair you want to go, and then you can just chop it, and that will, you’ll have different lengths, so it gives you a spiky look or whatever. But basically, we’re still using the same tools that, even, certainly in my history. You know, if you think of the history even further back, when they first used to do perms, that you were wired up to the ceiling and it was heat basically that was... Yes, exactly. (laughs) Then there was a cold perm, which is the one that is now used, where you’re not wired to anything, but you use the solution to break down the structure of the hair. Our history at Smile, apart from one period in the Seventies, when people, we used...we did perm people’s hair, but not for them...we let it...for them to let it dry naturally, so it just dried into that curl. That worked. And that was a time when everyone had that big sort of curly hair with...and we’d mostly use henna afterwards, because henna doesn’t have chemicals in it, and it wouldn’t, you weren’t over-processing the hair by using a tint and a perm. But no, we are still using the same tools really, in a different... We were... So what happens is, it’s usually the case, is that hairdressers are using old tools but in a different way to achieve a different effect.

And you, you described on the previous tape the sort of scissors you prefer and where they come from.

Yes.

And who supplies you with your brushes and combs and things?

We now use a company called Salon Services Ltd. I mean if you get that industry right, you can make loads of money, it’s a huge industry. We, again, they are always trying to sell us stuff, you know, we’ve got these new brushes, we’ve got this new brush. There’s a bristle brush on the market, or the same shape, which is a ceramic one, at the moment, which... I honestly, a lot of it is, it’s OK, you know... (laughs) And...

What, the prongs are ceramic?

The actual... Yes.

Or the handle, the actual...?

And, and the centre of the brush is as well. So, you’ve got antistatic ones now, which, which is good, because, you know, one of the problems when you’re blow-drying your hair, if you over-dry it you’re going to make it all fly away and, you know, electric. And at the moment, I’ve just explained to you, there are a lot of people now who want their hair really straight again, not as in the bob, but with lots of layers in it, but they want their hair to be dead straight. So there are massive brushes on the market again, you know, which don’t roll it so much, pull it straighter. But they are always a mod...they’ve been modified from something that’s already there, really. And then you get the individual hairdresser who likes different tools for certain reasons. For instance, if I want to pull someone’s hair dead straight, using a huge brush or a small one is irrelevant to me. I want a brush that has a lot of tension, that will really pull the hair straight. And it’s just what I do with it at the end, the technique that I think that we invented as well that, when I’m teaching, once you’re blow-drying the hair, and you’ve pulled it to the end, you want it to be dead straight, you then hold that hair in your fingers, you let it cool in your fingers. A lot of the kids would go, ‘Oh it’s too hot, I can’t do it,’ and your hands become hardened to that. It’s just where, you do it then, and then you, you let it settle. If you were to immediately comb that hair again, it would all fly away, and lose the shape you’ve made. So for me, if I use a big brush or a small brush, is, it’s what I do at the end, that little bit at the end. But then you’ll get others who only use the big brush, ‘Oh I’ve got to use the ceramic...’ Fine, that’s great. That’s just like the scissors you like, or the, you know... Combs are the same. In my whole history of hairdressing there’s...I can think of about four or five different combs, one is called a needle comb, which literally has, it’s a comb with a needle at the other end, which you use for doing highlights when you’re trying to section little bits out of the hair, you can thread it through, rather like you would a needle. But, you’ve got a comb at the other end as well so you can comb it through too, once you’ve got the sections in your hand. Then, to comb your hair

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/09 F14537A Page 175 through, which everybody should have, not the people like you with short hair so much, is a comb with massive wide teeth, and they’re usually quite big, and the reason is, when you’re combing your hair, to get the tangles out. A lot of people, I see them combing their hair, and I think, you’re just going to break your hairdo, and they rip this fine-tooth comb through their hair, you’re going to break your hair. So that’s just for coming hair through, which we would have at Smile at the back washes when someone’s having their hair washed, and taking... Then there’s the regular hairdressing comb, which is the same that I’ve always seen. They’re now... You know, in the old days I think, God knows what they were made of, I can’t remember now, but you know, like Bakelite if you like. And the only other comb I can remember is a, is an actual barber comb, and that’s much more pliable and flexible, because they’d be using the comb over the scissors technique, and you need to get behind their ears more, and, be chopping them. I’ve never bothered using one of those, there are better ways of, newer ways of doing that. And that’s about it as far as those go. So, so it...it is incredible that women...I mean I’m sure clothes are made differently in a way, or manufactured in a different way than they are, or used to be. But really, hairdressers are still using the same stuff. I wonder whether one day we might be using lasers or, something like that, to... It seems incredible really that you’re still using this old technique to cut hair. I mean do tailors still use scissors? I suppose they do. Yes. It would be the same kind of analogy I guess. Mm.

And when you employ people, who chooses what equipment they need?

Well in the beginning they’d be aping what you do. So, always with them, often with the juniors, when you, certainly someone with our history and that, you know, haven’t got any money, so I’ll often be giving them a pair of scissors that I don’t use any more, or, all of us would be. So they’d, that’s how they’d decide. Later when they start doing it more themselves, they decide, oh these scissors feel a bit too big for me, or a bit too small, and they’ll change them. It’s... And really at the end of the day, it’s what feels comfortable, what feels, just...what feels like in your hand, you know. I think, tools in that way, there are now some cordless tools, like clippers, you know, which we keep charged all day long, those...and they feel very nice, the designers have got better at that, to making them feel nice, just to look at and to hold. We still use electric clippers obviously, but they’ve been around since the year dot. Again,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/09 F14537A Page 176 that’s a good example, in the old days electric clippers were used for short back and sides, you know, if you went in the Army mate... Well some of them used to be hand- held ones, but later they made electric ones. We’re still using those, but in a far, very different way to...they were invented, you know, with, you know, short haircuts in the last few years, clippers have become fashionable again with men. Yes.

And who’s at the forefront of designing those, would you say?

It’s a good question actually. (laughs) I often wonder, I’ve often thought over the years that, I mean recently we were... Channel 4 did a programme about the history of hairdressing. Thought, great, how wonderful, wouldn’t that be nice. So, again they came to see Keith and I, somebody there knew that we were the first unisex salon, that would have been why they...we would have gone down in history if you like. And this very nice twenty-eight-year-old researcher came to interview us. She knew absolutely nothing about Smile, absolutely nothing about hairdressing generally. And what we quickly found out was, what she really wanted was, could we use some of our more famous clients to be on the programme talking about hair, you know, and the history of hair. It’s... This really annoying thing that’s happening now, you see it all the time, to make a programme work or, something, they want some celeb. And they weren’t really doing a programme about the history. And it came out, it was really awful. And that happens a lot I think, you’re not getting the right people... I don’t know why... Maybe they do know, but I certainly have no history of it. Why don’t they, if they’re bringing out a new product, why don’t they...a big company, why don’t you do more research with what’s happening, you know. I don’t know if you’ve seen any of these awful hair shows that go on. It’s like a tradition, it’s like bloody Come Dancing, you know, hardly...in my opinion it’s so badly done, they’re nothing to do with what’s going on. And again, it’s pretty much my history, and Keith as well, of this thing, you know, like working at Leonard’s, but the real haute couture thing is, is lovely, and, just excellent, but it’s not...I think the real energy comes from younger people, street fashion. And I don’t, I think you get new products brought out, and they obviously haven’t really talked to people who use them, hairdressers. You know, if I was going to make a programme about painting, I’d go and see, talk to the best painter and say, ‘Can you...can you advise us?’ They don’t seem to, still don’t seem to do that as far as I know. You know, that’s annoying.

But, but sorry, who...with the clippers...

Mm.

I mean are they British companies, or European?

The most famous ones are called Wahl, and I think they’re from America, initially. You would have... Do you remember a haircut called the flat-top? Or heard of it? What that was...

Like a crew cut?

That was like a GI’s type haircut. When you went in, if you were drafted into the army in America, you had your hair cut off, shaved. And just, what they would do, they’d start at the nape of the neck with the clippers, then work right across to, to the front, you know, nape to the forehead. So what that did was, it cut their hair all very short, all the same length, but this, gradually you pushed this front bit so you had a few bits sticking out. And that’s where the flat-top came from, and that became fashionable, whenever it did. Here, the clippers were used for, if you went into the military, again you had your hair shaved off. I mean if you think about it, you wear a hat, then I think they thought it was terribly smart, and clean, and also, you didn’t get lice, you know, if you were, in the trenches or whatever. So they used to...that was a horrible haircut, I mean it was long on the top, but all the sides and the back, you shaved off with clippers. Before the electric ones they would have been done by hand-held ones. And even I can remember those, as a kid, you know, a real young kid going into the barber and, where they sat you up on a plank on the chair, and used these horrible clippers.

You said that you had used L’Oréal and Wella for your tinting products.

Yes.

How...what sort of products did you use for sort of, the shampoo and...was conditioner something that has been around all the time?

Yes. A lot of the conditioners were also from Wella and L’Oréal. And we’d get samples from different suppliers. And again, you know, the same thing, you needed... A lot of people started washing their hair every day in those days, because, you weren’t setting it and expecting it to stay looking like that for a week, you know, you weren’t lacquering it into position. The idea was that the haircut fell into place, but, you know, when people have slept on it, they might want...it would be sticking out a bit in the morning, you just might want to... I now encourage a lot of people not to wash their hair very much. In those days I did because, you know, I didn’t know... I’ve learnt since then that if you over-wash your hair too much, it becomes far too soft and flyaway and... A lot of people if they just rinse their hair through in the morning, and if they wanted to blow-dry it again, it would be better. So we were looking for a shampoo that... You still need a shampoo for processed hair; you still need one for fine, flyaway hair, would be quite different. But mostly, we were looking for a shampoo that was very gentle, had the least amount of detergent in it, because, you wanted it to look as natural and as shiny as possible. Conditioners in those days were mostly wax-based, which, what that was, was to make the hair lay smooth. So lots of people, I used to say to them, ‘Don’t use conditioner, or if you do, only use it when you think it’s getting dry,’ because it was the wrong look. They made the hair lay flat, you know, and shiny, you’re making all the follicles of the hair lay down and they were wax-based. Now they’ve hugely improved. I mean there are ones that are like moisturisers, and if your hair is slightly over-processed, you need another kind of conditioner. There’s a massive... They certainly, there’s a load of that going on, they are bringing out new things, new, using different products and so on. And, it’s the same thing, you’re just looking for a product that gives you the right effect.

And what drives that sort of research? Is it, is it hairdressing, or is it the, the product manufacturers?

Well, it’s mostly the product manufacturers, I’m sure they, they must do, they have to employ chemists and so on. But I, I still wonder, I don’t honestly know the answer to this, but I, I doubt whether they do enough research into, with hairdressers. They

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/09 F14537A Page 179 probably do more than I’m saying, they ought to anyway, you know, because it’s... Especially in the last few years, finishing products, you know, when people wanted their hair to be sticking up, or using loads of gel after they’ve shampooed their hair. They’ve improved dramatically, you know, in the old days it was, almost like Brylcreem, you know, you could hardly wash it out of their hair, for a wet look. Now, a lot of those products are water-soluble, and they do wash out. But sometimes we’re sent stuff, you know, a new mousse or whatever to try, and, you think, yeah, it’s all right, but it’s not very much different to the last one. But that’s better. And so, I guess, someone is perhaps doing a bit more research.

But what... So, what drove you to think about having your own products, was it dissatisfaction with what was on the market?

[pause] Yes, I think so. And, it’s a nice thing to do, that we would have control of what I’ve just been saying, that you could, it would be nice to, working with a trichologist as I’ve been saying, you know, what about, can we do this with a shampoo, or... We only got to shampoos and conditioners, we didn’t get to finishing products, because, we didn’t really, it didn’t work, no one... We sold it our clients, which worked, but not... You know, if you wanted to make it really a successful business, it would have to be sold retail.

And why didn’t you...

Which, that happened.... We did it too early. (laughs) No one wanted to take it... Another example of that was not...when Biba collapsed, and Barbara went away to, I think she went to Brazil and lived for a while. She then decided to come back to England, and designed these amazing, wonderful range of make-up, it was all black and silver, very much sort of, purpley colours, you know, you could call it almost Gothic if you like. And it looked wonderful. But, at that time, big companies weren’t, wouldn’t use someone like her to promote it, which is, now is completely different. You know, people like Nicky Clarke and John Frieda, John Frieda I’m told has just sold out for £150 million. They welcome it now. But at that time, they weren’t using... Every perfume now is, you know, Calvin Klein, some designer’s

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/09 F14537A Page 180 name. At that time it wasn’t the way they did it. And when we brought out our products, it was...pff, couldn’t get it arrested in that sense, you know.

But if you had used somebody like Lynne Franks, do you think that would have made a difference?

I think it would, yes. I think, by... Well yes and no. You know, Keith and I discussed this. I think if we’d have gone down that line, with somebody like her, and she was terrific PR, I mean, we probably would have made a lot of money, a lot more money. But, it would have meant playing the game of, the PR game, you know, and behaving in a certain way. And I...neither Keith or I aspire to that very much. But... Yes.

What do you mean, sort of appearing on television and...?

Yes. Going to the right parties.

So what would those be, that you weren’t going to?

Well you get on the... Like, if you, if you equate it to now, would be like, you know, celeb parties and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I think, yes, if you like, if you said, ‘What is...what would be wrong with Smile?’ would be that, one of us didn’t want to do that. (laughs) If we had, I think... We just did our own thing, we did in our own little way, but not in the same way. In our opinion it was more important... But as Keith says, when we talk about it, maybe we’ve been seeing a psychiatrist, might be a lot richer, but we... And we wanted to do our own thing, you know, and it was different. But if you, if you were to look at Smile’s history in a financial point of view, then you would, I think that, any kind of big business guy would have said, ‘OK, that’s what you did wrong,’ and you would have achieved a lot more financially anyway. And more fame if you like. But you’ve got to remember that fame pushes you in a certain way. If it’s not where you wanted to go, it’s very hard to do it. Yes, we very very nearly opened a salon in Los Angeles, did I tell you that? Around, again around the same time, in the Seventies, we had, you know, clients like Elton John and Bryan Ferry, we had loads of pop stars. And, at that time Los Angeles was becoming

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/09 F14537A Page 181 like the rock capital of the world, all the bands were moving there. And they’d come back and say, ‘Look, you’ve got to open a Smile in Los Angeles, there’s nothing like you there. It would be fabulous, you’d make, you’d do really well.’

Is this in the Seventies?

Yes. I can’t remember what year. Oh I can remember exactly. 1975, because Lucy had just been born. So, we thought, OK, you know, Keith and I, and David funnily enough, came with us, we’ll go there for three weeks, and we, we set up a load of business meetings, and, to see what we thought. And I remember one night going to the Copacabana when Leo Sayer did his first gig in America, and he was managed by Adam Faith who was a client. We walked in the Copacabana, it was packed, and we must have known fifty per cent of the people there. ‘Great, you’re coming here, you know, it’s wonderful.’ So we, we did the whole thing, we tried to do the legal side, how you get a Green Card, and we got around that. If you invest money, we could have got that. We found a premises, right on the edge of Beverley Hills, or another one in West Hollywood. Got to the whole point. And we had in our head that we could split the year between us, that I would spend six months there and Keith would spend six months there. And two meetings took place, we, we had a meeting with a guy called Michael Chow, do you know the restaurant, Chow’s? And he had opened a restaurant there. And we had lunch with him, had a meeting one day, and we were telling him we were going to have six months here... He said, ‘Hang on guys, if you really want to make it here, one of you’s got to be here all the time.’ You know, he tried to the same thing with his restaurant, and it failed. And he was quite right. One of us had to say we were going to be there the whole time. The other... We could have gone, you know, say, I was there, Keith could have come over for a couple of months, gone back again. But somebody had to be there running the whole thing. And then it came to the point, well, Lucy had just been born, I can’t bring up a child here, there’s no way. And again, it’s the same thing as taking the PR. I think we would have done extremely well there. But there it’s very obvious, if you, I’m sure it’s the same now, that if you want to be successful there, you really have to play the game. You’ve really got to go down that PR route. And I’ve always liked the idea, I like London, because you can be, you don’t...you can be anonymous, you don’t have to be, play the part. I’ve never thought of myself as a hairdresser in the traditional

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/09 F14537A Page 182 sense anyway. So it came down to, I said, ‘Keith, I can’t bring up Lucy here, there’s no way I can sort of live here. Do you want to do it?’ ‘No I can’t do it either.’ (laughs) So, we dropped the whole thing. And, and it’s a bit like the, I mean, Frank’s thing, you know, you’ve got to want to do it haven’t you, you know.

Yes, have you seen that film, Shampoo, I can’t remember, Shampoo [inaudible]?

Now, that’s weird you should say that, because I actually saw it when I was there. (laughs) It had just come out, I remember it very well, because, sitting two, two rows in front of me was... Yellow Taxi. Now who sings Yellow Taxi? Oh God! my brain’s gone. One of my heroes at the time of Neil Young and all that sort of stuff. I’ll get it in a minute. Yes, I saw it there. I thought it was very good, I thought it was a good... It was one that was supposed to be shot in the Sixties, so, although it came out in the Seventies, the time was the Sixties. I thought it, for there, it was, I thought it was a very good little movie. You know, not the obvious stuff, but it was... Usually when you see films about your profession, I think, rubbish. I mean they got some bits wrong, but it was...the actual, the message it was giving, I thought was excellent.

So what do you, what was the message?

What the Sixties were like in... I mean, not, not... In London, I’m sure they...it obviously happened in LA as well. Yes, in that film, the guy who played the lead, Warren...Warren Beatty, was heterosexual, in a ridiculous way. There’s a wonderful scene in it when he goes to the bank to borrow some money and the guy said, ‘Well, what have you, what’s your collateral?’ He said, ‘Well I do so-and-so,’ he said, ‘I do this star’s hair and that star.’ He thought that was enough for a bank to lend him some money. Which, I can see that happening. (laughs) And, the whole Sixties thing, the sexual revolution, the music part of it, which certainly worked in my interest. And, hairdressers were accepted differently in society. I said to you earlier, when I left school, there were some people I wouldn’t tell I’d started hairdressing because they thought immediately you were gay, because that was, you know, number one. And just, what I thought was an interesting thing about that film is, what...the same problem we all have in hairdressing, is this relationship with your clients, and where you fit in with society. Yes it was good.

[end of session]

[End of F14537 Side A] [Side B is blank] [F14683 Side A]

I don’t know. I bought a paper just now.

The 11th.

Oh right. Just name and date?

Yes.

Leslie Russell, 11th of February ’04.

So, you’re not feeling too, too good?

I’m not feeling badly. The extraordinary thing about cluster headaches, which not many people have heard of, is, you...they are...it’s a cycle, it’s a series of brain cells in the part of your brain that receives pain signals, and for some reason which is, nobody knows why, they become inflamed and play up. And then you get at least one headache, or two headaches a day. Which are... You know like Munch’s painting, The Scream? It’s like someone putting a stake through your head basically. The worst ones last up to three hours. They always start in the same way, and they, they finish in the same way. And there isn’t actually a cure for them at all, you just have to be ready for them. I first had them about twenty years ago. They affect 0.1 of the population, and as a ratio of seven to one in favour of men. Usually start on your mid life, and, there are two types of sufferers, one episodic, which, touch wood, I am; and there are chronic sufferers, who get it all the time. There’s absolutely no cure for them. I belong to a group called OUCH, which is interesting, OUCH stands for the Organisation for the Understanding of Cluster Headaches. And the reason I joined that group was, the patron is a man called Professor Goadsby, who is the head of the

British National Neurological Institution[sic], and he is doing more research about cluster headaches than anybody else. I went to a lecture he gave about three years ago in the summer somewhere in Marylebone, one of those hospitals along there, Marylebone High Road. And there were about 200 people there, which is the first time in my life ever I’ve met anybody else who gets cluster headaches. And, there isn’t a cure for them. He showed us a MRI scan picture of exactly what it is, and where it is. And you just have to be prepared for when they come. People do two things. Some people inhale oxygen at a really fast speed, which can help to get rid of them, and I’ve tried that. And then, most people, like myself, take stuff called Imigran, which you have to use as an injection. And the way they work is, that headaches always start in a similar way, with a weird sort of drying up inside your nose usually. It can be anywhere from one temple to the other temple, or on top of your head. And in one attack, which could be six or eight weeks long, it always, the pain is always in exactly the same place. So, you just to be prepared for when they arrive, and then, if you actually take the Imigran injection when they’re beginning, you can completely sort of, knock the pain out. According to Goadsby, it’s supposed to be the worst pain known to mankind. Certainly there was a lady called Brenda who used to run out, she had lots of children, say it’s worse than having a baby, but I wouldn’t know about that. (laughs) But they are the most peculiar, extraordinary... It’s just a physiological phenomenon, they don’t know why. All the people I met at the lecture, like 200 people, none of us had a trigger for them. Most neurologists seem to think it’s just like a cycle, you know, like depression, it can be a cycle. pff So these things happen. They’re there, they can be totally debilitating, but what you have to do is just be ready for them, and, if I was at work, unfortunately I have to sort of excuse myself for ten minutes and then... The amazing thing about cluster headaches, unlike migraine, as I say, they go exactly in the same way that they arrive, but you completely recover, you don’t have a... I know people who get migraine, the next day they look like they’ve been out to a party all night, red-eyed and all the rest of it. They do actually completely disappear. So... Until the next one of course. It’s, it’s...you just have to be ready for them basically. It’s something that happened to me about twenty years ago and I had a gap of about seven years when I didn’t have them at all; then I have, sort of about a year, and then they stopped again for about four years, and then, the last four years I’ve had them every year, usually twice...once or twice a year, which is a bit boring, but, there we are.

And there’s no pattern to when you get them?

Usually me, they happen in the spring, or in July/August time. This year, which is February, it’s early. Maybe it’s the change in the climate, we’re getting earlier springs, I don’t know. Yes. And you... So, maybe, maybe I’ll just get one this year, not two. Or, more, touch wood. Stay episodic. That’s the biggest worry, that it’s worse, because there’s absolutely nothing you can do about them. They’re just a, a phenomena that one has to deal with, but it’s not, it’s not a problem, I mean you know, I still, I make sure it doesn’t ruin my life. I mean there are times when it’s a drag when you, you know, you’re in the cinema, and, here we go, and you have to leave. Or... It’s not so bad being out socially or for dinner, because, you know, you just sort of disappear, sometimes people don’t know you’ve gone, and you can come back in about fifteen minutes and you’re OK again. But, yes, they are...it is the most excruciating pain, I mean it’s not the sort of thing... But if you get one, it’s not the sort of thing where you just like quietly in the corner; you, you can’t sit still, you have to stand up and rock yourself from side to side. Been known to bang my head against the door. It’s, it’s not the sort of migraine type thing, it’s not migraine at all, it’s completely different. So... As I say, if you, if you’re prepared and you’ve got your Imigran or your oxygen or whatever you take, you can actually sort of deal with it.

So, how has...how else has being a member of OUCH helped you?

It’s terrific sometimes, because, I don’t mean this rudely but there are times when, a lot of sort of GPs don’t really know much about cluster headaches, and because it’s such a small part of the population, 0.1 of the population, I’m not suggesting they don’t know them, but they don’t really know what they’re like. I mean when I went to the lecture for Professor Goadsby, one of the last things he said to us, he said, ‘This sounds awful, but if one of you could take, make a video of your partner when they’re having one of these things,’ he said, ‘I would like to have it, because...’ He, what he did, he had a couple of patients who had them, he actually saw them while they were actually having an attack, and he just said, ‘I didn’t realise how severe the pain is.’ That he would like to have a video so that he could show neurologists and doctors and, just how extreme they are. Sorry, I’ve forgotten the question again now.

How being a member of OUCH has helped you.

Oh. Yes, OK. So, when you read, like Imigran, it says on it, ‘Only take one a day, in every twenty-four hours.’ And Imigran works by cutting off the blood supply to your brain, so it’s cutting the, cutting the source that’s feeding the pain if you like. And, the last attack last year, I was actually getting three a day, and, I was worried about taking that many injections. So, I could ring up OUCH, not that they, in any way are they responsible for giving you medical advice, because they’re certainly not doctors, but you are talking to other people who have had it, and there are so few that have. And so I was able to talk about, ‘What do you think, taking more than one a day?’ and so on. I could go to my GP obviously, and I do, but, and I do, once a year I go to Chelsea & Westminster Hospital and see a neurologist.

And what happens there?

Well, the last time I saw them... I mean the first time I had...you have to have an MRI scan, which is a hideous experience. Have you ever had one of those?

No I haven’t.

Where they shove you in that tube for twenty minutes, and make sure your brain is OK. Thank God it was. Didn’t find much in there, but it was OK what they found.

And did you have to prepare for that in any special way? pff Not really. I mean you just go along, and then, they just sort of clamp your head and... I don’t know if you’ve ever seen an MRI scanner, have you? It’s really restricting, and... It’s only twenty minutes, but, I’m a bit claustrophobic, it’s a nightmare being there. Put all of you. Why they put all of you into it to look at your head, I have no idea. If the rest of you was out, you’d be OK. So, there is... The only other thing you can do, there are drugs that you can take daily, which possibly might stop you getting them, it’s only possibly. And I don’t like taking stuff for, if you get something, you know. And, you know, as the worst in one year I’ve had them, and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683A Page 187 again I’m touching wood, only two times in a year, they’re the kind of drugs that you take, a lot of them are steroid based, that, some of them take like, six weeks before they kick in. Because my actual attacks, they’re usually six or eight weeks, I’d rather take Imigran or painkillers – well, Imigran is the only one that works. I mean, taking something like Nurofen or any other kind of headache pill is a complete waste of time, it doesn’t do anything, I mean, you might as well...doesn’t work. Imigran is the only thing I’ve known that works so far.

And how does your doctor respond to the cluster headache thing?

Well, I mean, there isn’t much they can say. It’s sort of... Oh, they’ve, the neurologist last time I went, which is only last month in fact, just came in to see me at Chelsea & Westminster and said, ‘Look, you know, I just feel it’s my duty to tell you, you had them twice last year; I want you to realise there are other drugs you could take that maybe would stop you getting them.’ But I actually know all about those from OUCH and from Goadsby. When we went there for the lecture we had a A4, four-page printout of all the drugs that people take, what they do, which has been the most successful, and which hasn’t. So, what he is doing for instance, the neurologist at Chelsea, is writing to my GP so that, if I do decide at one point I want to do that, then I could go and get a prescription, try and take those drugs to stop me getting them. But I’m...if it doesn’t....if it doesn’t change or get worse, the situation, I certainly won’t be doing that.

What about your, your diet and your eating habits?

I did try a couple of years ago, I went to see a homeopathic doctor, and, also I, I sort of suffer from like, sinus problems, and, went on a dairy-free diet. I now juice up fresh fruit, organic fresh fruit and vegetables every day. I wouldn’t say my diet is wonderfully healthy, but it’s not bad. I don’t eat, or hardly ever have any dairy products whatsoever. And, I really did this diet religiously, lost about a stone in weight. And was really disappointed next year, got the cluster headaches again. I didn’t go there to him expecting that to work. But really, it seems to me, cluster headaches are totally and utterly physiological, it’s not, it’s something that you have control of. It’s quite interesting, OUCH do a newsletter, and I remember reading a

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683A Page 188 poem by a fellow, in the newsletter, a fellow sufferer talking about having a monster living inside you, you have no control over, this thing will just sort of... And I certainly can’t relate it to... I know a lot of, I’ve got friends who are migraine sufferers, and they can relate it to stress or to bad diet, red wine, chocolate. I can’t relate...nobody I met at the OUCH meeting with 200-odd people have any, any trigger whatsoever. There are triggers if you are in a bout, as I am at the moment, alcohol and paint solvents can set something off, odd things like that. But, if you’re not in a bout, how it begins, no idea, and nobody else has any idea as far as I can tell, including Professor Goadsby. What he has, has identified the area where it is in your brain. I mean the only real cure would be for you to sever that nerve, which, you can imagine what the side-effects of something like that would be. It’s not a, not an option. And he doesn’t know. And... I don’t think anybody knows really. It’s often hereditary. As I said to you, more, it’s seven to one in favour of men; women get more migraine apparently. No, it’s just one of those things in life that, you know, you’re unlucky if you’ve got... You know, like when I had my MRI scan, the neurologist came out and said, ‘Well, the good news is, we haven’t found anything wrong. The bad news is, you’ve got cluster headaches mate.’ So, ‘Yes, I know that.’ (laughs) And that’s really, I think that sort of sums it up really. But it’s not so awful, it doesn’t stop me doing anything. It’s a bit of a bore when you go on holiday, because you want to take these needles with you, which, they don’t want...people don’t want you to fly, so I have a letter from the hospital saying I need to take them. And, just, it does stop me doing things like, maybe I won’t go to the theatre, or I won’t go to the cinema, because, I might get one and then I’ll have to walk out in the middle of the, whatever, and go and find a quiet corner where I can take one of these things. So... But it is, it’s not any big deal. Sometimes, as you get much older, you can actually, they do actually stop again, and sometimes, in my history, you get years of remission and then, you know, they seem to return again.

So does anybody else in your family suffer from them?

Not that I’m aware of, although, as I said to you, they are, they can be hereditary. But I never actually knew my father’s family at all, for some reason he was never in contact with them, so, I didn’t know the grandparents on that side. And as, you know, my grandfather died when I was, I think, possibly before I was born, and my

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683A Page 189 grandmother when I was about ten, I don’t really know... I don’t remember anybody talking about that in the family. And I can’t imagine they wouldn’t, because it...it is amazingly excruciating. But without Imigran, God knows how people sort of cope with it. I mean, at the lecture that Professor Goadsby gave a few years ago, there was a bloke over from Germany who was setting up a similar thing like OUCH, and, there were a couple of people in Germany apparently committed suicide, which I, all I can imagine is that they were, you know, chronic sufferers, and just sort of... It would be awful if you got no relief from that and it was every day, every day, it would drive you crazy. So you do need...that would... I can understand that, thinking, I’ve got to get out of here. Mm.

When did you start smoking?

Oh, when I was about fourteen I should say. Behind the bicycle sheds, you know, butch stuff. And apart from one year of my life, I’ve actually never stopped.

When did you stop?

Let me see. It was 1989, the year I split with my ex-wife. Before...I started before we split up. Then smoking is nothing to do with it. Yes, I don’t...I lasted a year, which is, was good actually, I, I can’t remember feeling any different to be honest with you. I have no idea why I started smoking again. It is one of those things I think, yes, I will stop one of these days, but, it’s something I never do.

But why did you stop?

I kind of, I thought it was bad for the kids, and, you know, and also, socially smoking now is a pain in the butt, I mean it really is. It’s going to get worse as well, isn’t it, everywhere you go you’re not allowed to. And I read a book by Alan Carr called The Easy Way to Stop Smoking, someone gave it to me, and it had been sitting around for months and I thought, oh yes, I’ll read it, I’ll have a go at it. And it was actually, I did find it quite profound, and it was very helpful, and certainly recommend it, if you really are trying to stop smoking.

What sort of things did he recommend?

The biggest thing I think, it’s like, a same analogy would be, if you go on a diet, and you really like chocolate or whatever, or things that are sweet, is that you... Most people walk around being miserable, saying, ‘Isn’t it horrible, I can’t have a bit of chocolate, it’s terrible, I can’t have this.’ The trick really is to, when you get the pangs of, i.e. say it’s smoking, you’re not going to smoke, you switch the whole situation round, and you think, you know, take a few deep breaths and think, hang on, OK, I’m not...it’s horrible, I get these terrible pangs, but I’m sort of, sorting out my health, I’m not smoking. And stop feeling sorry for yourself, and think... There are other little tricks like, if you...one of his big things, and it does work, if you watch somebody smoke, it’s such a dumb habit, you know, sucking in this thing down into your lungs, and if you look and see how disgusting it is, and then say to yourself, ‘Isn’t it great, I’m not doing this any more.’ Then, those... So, to stop feeling sorry for yourself; absolutely no substitutes at all. He’s very anti patches or chewing gum, you know, nicotine chewing gum, or, even ordinary chewing gum, or sweets or whatever. You just sort of knock it on the head, and stop feeling sorry for yourself, and, and when you get the pang, and it does work, after a while, it can last only seconds and you...then you congratulate yourself thinking, wow, you know, I conquered that and I’m not going to do that any more. Why I started again, I don’t know. I was fully out of it, it was quite extraordinary.

Can you remember the occasion when you did go back to smoking?

I can’t actually remember... I know what happened, I was out for dinner with lots of friends, and, quite, had a lot to drink, and suddenly realised I was halfway through a cigarette. It was like, this subconscious thing. And I thought, what am I doing? Put the thing out. Later, I’m sure I had another one. And literally, about two days later went out and bought a packet of twenty cigarettes. It is a real drug in the sense of, it’s such a small hit, you know, and the fact that you can smoke all day long. You couldn’t drink all day long, you’d fall over and collapse, or take cocaine all day long and... So, I think I’m in that awful syndrome of, you know, haven’t I been a good boy, I’ve worked hard all day, or, you know, I’ve just done my client, so I’ll have a quick cigarette and, you know, it’s like, celebrating, saying, you do this. Like people,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683A Page 191 have a sweetie with your child, you know. (laughs) You’ve been a good boy, you can have a sweet now, OK. And then I think just becomes a part of your life basically. And I’m sure all people will tell you who smoke, probably, through a day you probably, there’ll be about five that you could really say, yes, I really enjoy that, and then, and the other twenty or thirty or whatever you smoke, is purely something to do with your hands, or, what you’ve always done. So that’s why I think Alan Carr’s system is right, is that you have to, you can’t have a substitute. You know, his philosophy is, if you...you’re just swapping one addiction for another, which is true, you know. And I know a load of people who have given up smoking – drinking, have been to AA, you know, who...but still smoke marijuana and walk around with a smug smile on their face. ‘I don’t drink any more.’ And you know, I was amused to hear on the radio a few weeks ago, if you smoke two joints a day, just the actual habit of, the sucking in like you do in a deep way, is like smoking twenty fags a day, you know, so you’re no better off. (laughs) And is true, I... It’s amazing how we always seem to need something, I don’t...I... And there’s still...there are some people who don’t do any of that, and terribly healthy, and a lot of people think they’re boring, which I don’t, but, you know, generations always seem to have something.

So how many cigarettes do you think you do smoke in a day?

Oh, I would say twenty or thirty.

How many packets...that’s one...how many packets is that?

One and a half I should say, or...yes.

And how much does a packet of cigarettes cost now?

Nearly £5. I know, it’s quite crazy, isn’t it? You cannot justify it. And the amazing thing is, I know for sure... I’m really disappointed my two children smoke, but my ex-wife, we both used to smoke. They used to hate it when they were little, you know, and I tried not to smoke around them. They both smoke, it’s quite extraordinary. And I’m amazed by, you know, how many of their friends smoke.

You know, and they, and every generation seems to need some help drug-wise, alcohol, whatever it is.

What about your clients, is smoking allowed in the salon?

Oh God! no. And that’s the great thing for me, there’s no way, I can’t smoke when I’m working, thank, God, and... No, I mean, you know, I try and wash my hands every time I go and do someone’s hair so they can’t smell, but they probably can. No, you can’t smoke when you’re working.

And has that always been the case?

Yes. Oh yes yes yes. Definitely. Just as well I work hard, isn’t it, it would be terrible. Maybe that will be the day I give up. (laughs)

So, for instance, at Leslie Green’s, were clients allowed to smoke there?

I can’t remember to be honest, but I’m sure they would have been able to, yes. I mean in those days not many people really...everybody smoked. And, well you could go to the cinema and smoke, couldn’t you? You might not remember that. And...

And what about at Leonard’s?

Leonard’s, certainly we’d never smoke in front of the clients, no. [inaudible]. No I can’t remember ever doing that, you wouldn’t do that.

What about the clients themselves?

That’s what I’m trying to remember. I can’t, I can’t imagine they didn’t, but I... They must have done. It’s awful isn’t it, that you don’t...because you do it yourself, you don’t really... I mean, the situation now at Smile is, we have not...very very few people will smoke in, whilst having their hair done. We, we have a little section if someone really wants to smoke. If someone’s sitting there for two and half hours with highlights and colour on their hair, and they want to smoke, we sit them in one

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683A Page 193 section of the place. And people will always say to you now, ‘Is it all right if I smoke?’ And I am, as you can imagine, totally sympathetic. (laughs)

When do you think that started, people asking whether they could smoke?

Well the extraordinary thing, I think we talked last time we met, about Los Angeles, though that is now pretty...it’s twenty-nine years this month, because, you know, I know because of Lucy’s birthday, I went there, and we had quite a few social evenings. I think I walked round everyone’s garden I think, because, with, smoking my cigarette. And if I wanted to stay in the house, ordered a line of coke or a joint would have been fine, but a cigarette? Outside. (laughs) Here, I think... pff Not that long really. I would...maybe five, six or more years, you know. People still smoke in bars here, in pubs, I think they’re the last bastions of... But even now when I go to a restaurant, I’m very aware of who’s sitting next to you. And I have been known to ask them if it’s OK, the table next door. I think what happens is, if you smoke, you just have to become aware of, it’s a pain for other people if they don’t. What I find extraordinary is that the year I didn’t smoke, I actually, it really didn’t worry me at all, people smoking round me. In my opinion, I don’t know the medical evidence of passive smoking, but I don’t believe it, I don’t believe that it really is that harmful. I reckon you’ve got more chance of walking down the road with smoke fumes and bus fumes giving you a bad time, but anyway. I actually enjoy people smoking now, because I did that Alan Carr thing, I don’t do that any more, it’s wonderful, you know, and you feel quite smug. And so I never became one of those people, pff, you know, go away, just go. But I, but you’ve got to respect that. Certainly in people’s homes, I mean, if people don’t smoke, it’s really...and even if guests come here, even like yourself, and I’ll say to you, ‘Is it all right if I smoke?’ and that’s in my own place, if they said, ‘No,’ I would actually not do it, I don’t find that difficult. I don’t find it difficult to go to the cinema and sit through Lord of the Rings for three and a half hours, which I loved, without having a cigarette, it’s...I don’t... I can do it on a plane and all that sort of stuff.

Can you remember though an incident here in London, you know, where you were surprised by being asked not to smoke?

In London.

Or England.

Not, not more than going to people’s houses, and realising how much they hated it, you know, and... I mean the Christmas before last, I was with some great friends who I’ve known, the McGowans, you know, none of them smoke. And I realised that, I just walk out in the garden. And they’re fine, you know, poor old Leslie, you know, poor old bugger, he’s still go the problem. But I, you do realise it’s, people really don’t like it. And I can understand, because, I did, I did realise in the year that I didn’t smoke, how people do, who smoke, smell of cigarettes, and you know, people get in my car sometimes and go, ‘Jesus Christ! can you open the windows?’ you know. You become unaware of it, but... So, you need to know, you need to understand for other people. That’s fine, it’s really... But it’s amazing when you give things up, how people give you a hard time. I mean the other thing I remember doing is not drinking for a year. Now I do drink every day, I like wine.

[End of F14683 Side A] [F14683 Side B]

Right. Sorry. Oh yes, if you... I remember for a year, when I was married again, so it must be a long time ago, I had a few, a medical thing, nothing serious, but, decided the best thing would be not to drink for a year. Had a thing called hyperglycaemia, which is where your sugar levels are all wrong in your blood. And so I went on a diet, very similar to a non-dairy diet where you don’t have any, very little carbohydrate, and, you cut the sugar out of your life. So obviously, drinking wine is sugar, so, I stopped drinking for a year, which I find absolutely easy, after two or three days, four days, I can do that, no problem. The cigarettes, something else. But people just don’t like it, friends, you know. ‘Come on, you’ve got to...just have a glass of wine, it won’t do...good for you.’ In the end what I used to do was, say at a dinner party, I’d pour myself a glass of wine, and everybody else, you know, and put the bottle by me so it looked like I was in charge of it. But didn’t actually drink it. As long as they saw a glass in front of you, that stopped them saying, ‘You’ve got to have a drink,’ you know. Weird isn’t it, how people... And other smokers, if you stop smoking, get

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683B Page 195 up...you know, not upset, but they’ll sort of, really they’re envious, that you’ve done it and they haven’t. So, I...you have to be very careful you’re not smug, outwardly smug, and walking around boasting about it. And I, it’s like, several friends this year who, January the 1st, not smoking not drinking; all of them failed miserably. And why, why they put the pressure on yourself to...at that time? I think if you really, all of us, if you decide, ‘I’m not going to do that any more,’ essentially, easy, it’s not difficult – well not easy, but you, you do it. To put this date, you know, in two weeks’ time I’m going to do this, is like... And then of course when you fail, you hate yourself. I mean I don’t like myself now for smoking, but, it’s terrible pressure to put on yourself. And I think the Alan Carr thing of trying to make it not a misery, anything you do, diet-wise or...but, it’s great, I’m doing this, I’m doing myself some good, is the way to approach it, if you can.

And what was the effect sort of physically of not drinking?

I mean that particular year that I’m talking about, you know, now, when I get cluster headache bouts, I don’t drink at all for, I won’t drink now until they, God forbid, I hope it’s no more than eight weeks, I don’t really notice feeling any different to be honest with you. In the beginning, if you’re used to having a few glasses of wine, you know, I find it difficult to get sleep, but that usually is just a transitionary period. I can’t remember feeling any better really. I mean I, I never, I’m one of those people, alcohol for me is never before 7.30, eight o’clock at night. I never ever, even on holiday, drink in the daytime, I’m not really interested. Again it’s this same thing of, haven’t I been a good boy, I’ve worked all day long, I’ve got to treat myself now. No, I don’t... I don’t find I feel any different. Mm.

And what about the effect on the hyperglycaemia?

Hyperglycaemia was... Yes, if you, if I was to drink too much over a period, a long time, then I would have a few symptoms of it, but because I know now what it is, it’s, you just cut it back and it’s, you can adjust it.

And what are the symptoms?

I mean, I remember it really well, it’s, I became incredibly disorientated. I would lose my balance sometimes. I remember once lying in bed at night and thinking that my head was outside my body and my voice was outside my body. I thought I was going barmy for a while. Really hyper, and tense. I didn’t like walking along and say, you know, walking along the street and a bus coming the other way, I felt I was going to fall under the bus. Peculiar feeling. And I had a lovely old GP for years who sadly now is retired, Brian Piggott, and, who, I have to say when I first had cluster headaches twenty-five years ago whenever it was, immediately went to see him, explained the symptoms, ‘Oh, Leslie, it sounds like you have cluster headaches.’ He knew instantly what they were. And when I told him about the hyperglycaemia, well I didn’t know what hyperglycaemia...I’d never heard the word, he just put me on a diet, not in a heavy way, he’s a very clever doctor, you know, eat lots of vegetables, only the ones that grow above the ground, all the root ones are full of sugar; no alcohol; you’re allowed to have one slice of bread a day. Basically it was a high protein diet, you know, you can eat fish, meat. If you felt hungry, it’s quite OK perhaps to go and eat some peanuts or, nuts of some sort, which are full of protein. And within five days I felt, pff, just a million dollars, you know. And I... In fact it was wonderful to feel normal again. I really thought I was going barmy for a while. And now, I’m obviously susceptible to it. There are some doctors who don’t believe in hyperglycaemia, they think it’s the beginning of diabetes. Certainly Brian Piggott didn’t.

Sorry, he did or he didn’t?

Didn’t. Yes. But there are some doctors who don’t believe hyper...they think it’s a modern thing, you know, that people say they’ve got. So yes, if I get any of those symptoms back again, not, God forbid, nothing like that, then I will immediately change my diet, and within two days you can feel OK again. Mm.

When you, when you felt you were going mad, what...what was your response? I mean why...why...what ...yes.

Frightening. It was terrifying. I mean I, I remember working, sort of leaning to one side to, you know, cut one side of someone’s hair, and thought I was going to... It’s

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683B Page 197 like the floor’s pulling you down, my balance was all, bizarre. And as I said to you, walking around in a crowd of people, people walking, coming towards you, made you feel really like I was going to fall over, or... But as I say, I think the worst experience was laying in bed one evening and, and really, my head was outside by body, and when I spoke, it was as though my voice was coming from, you know, two feet above my head kind of thing. It was just complete disorientation. And, that was totally diet, absolutely, you know, eating the wrong things, and...

And how long was it before you went to the doctor?

It’s a long time ago now. Not very long, you know, I mean maybe a week or two weeks at the most. Because at the beginning you think, oh, I just don’t feel well today. And the remarkable thing was, literally within, I’m sure it was about five days, I was completely normal again, and, just cutting the sugar out was just, my blood sugar levels were completely haywire. You can actually test for those things, but it’s very complicated and really difficult. It’s actually one of those things that you, I think in the end you monitor yourself, what things suit you, what things don’t. But... You know, I...I wasn’t sort of stuffing myself full of sweets or things like that, although I have to say, I would sometimes walk past a sweet shop and go and buy a Mars Bar, and really want it, I mean you know, couldn’t wait to have it, and then maybe go back and buy another one. The extraordinary thing is, it gives you a, you think you need sugar, and in fact all that does is give you a massive high, rush of blood level, blood sugar levels, but then you get a massive drop, you get serious... Oh [inaudible], you would suddenly become incredibly tired. And, my mood would swing enormously. You know, I can remember going to dinner parties and just, not drinking a lot, but drinking a bit, and then being really rude and aggressive, and... It’s extraordinary how something like that can really take you over.

So, so how would...what...how do...how would you show your aggression?

Oh, verbally, not, not physically. I’m not one of those. (laughs) It’s just, you know, ‘What do you mean by that? Don’t be so stupid,’ you know, and be... I remember ringing up friends the next day and saying, ‘I’m really sorry, I was really rude last night, I didn’t mean to be.’ And, judging by their faces, that, you know, that you were

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683B Page 198 acting really out of character. And it’s amazing how something like that can take you over. Yes, I feel very sorry for people who really are diabetics, that must be, that must happen to them.

Who would you have discussed how you felt with, apart from Dr Piggott?

Who?

Yes.

Well it would have been my wife obviously at the time. But Brian Piggott was, well, an amazing man, just, he retired about seven or eight years ago now with Parkinson’s unfortunately. He, I know he’s...I could still ring him now if I wanted to, which is terrific. He’s one of those men who was there when my children were born, probably knew more, knows more about me than anybody else. So I just went to see Brian, go to see Brian, and he sorted me out. Amazingly, instead of... No... He hated giving you drugs as well, you know, or, you know, ‘Can’t sleep Brian,’ he wouldn’t say, ‘Oh take these,’ you know. ‘Why can’t you sleep?’ you know, he was, he was very, when I think about it, quite holistic in the sense that he would look at why you were getting the problems, rather than, most medicine now, just treat the symptoms, not the cause.

So what are the differences would you say with your current doctor?

They’re very nice. I now have an NHS doctor locally here in Redcliffe Street which is in Chelsea, and in fact the lady who’s the main doctor there comes, and she’s one of our clients now, which is lovely. I think what you realise now is, you know, I do, I think it’s unfortunate, the bad press, a lot of the NHS. I know they make mistakes. When I go and see them, like recently go to the Chelsea & Westminster, they are so busy, the poor buggers are seeing so many people. I do think there are some people who never monitor things for themselves, you know, they go along, just what the doctor tells them, they do. I think you’ve got to question what they’re doing, you know, do I really...what’s the side-effects of this stuff you’re giving me? And so many people I know now are doing so-called alternative medicine. But you know, I think all of those things, self-help could be massively... You know, when I mentioned

I went to see the homeopathic doctor who’s, I thought was brilliant, Charles Innes, you know, what I thought was very clever about him, I literally wrote him a four- page, that he asked me to do, questionnaire, and I really did tell him exactly how much I was drinking, exactly how much I...what exactly...how much I smoked. And he never said a word about, on the first time. And then, went back, and I had a massive reaction to not eating dairy, it was quite extraordinary. My sinuses cleared up. I lost a stone in weight without even thinking I was on a diet. I didn’t go there to lose weight, although I needed to. And then, you go back and see him after a month, and, we decided, you know, I had no wheat, no dairy, no yeast, and then you have to introduce these things back into your diet. I didn’t introduce dairy because that was obvious, that was what I was allergic to. But if you eat, say, yeast again, you get a reaction, according to him, like you’ve eaten a stone, you know, like a big...you blow up inside, which I didn’t. And then, and he said, ‘Well I’m glad you’re really feeling better. You look better,’ you know, and everything. By then I’d probably lost about half a stone or more. And he just said to me, ‘Now, the smoking and the drinking, OK.’ (laughs) His belief is, I think he realises that people like me probably can’t really stop altogether, but if we were able to massively cut it down. His...you know, savour is his thing, so that if you wait...you know, I don’t have a cigarette now, I’ll have one when I really want one. And the same with alcohol or whatever. But what I’m suggesting is, I think most people now realise that they’ve got to help themselves. A lot of people now are worried about what they eat, every day you’re inundated with ridiculous newspaper articles or the press who just, make everything far worse than it is. And there are definitely, all of us I think are allergic to different things, and I think you have to discover what they are. You know, I can’t...I know I can’t eat onions, I can’t eat leeks. If I eat a garlic cube, you know, what do they call it, a leaf, I would be ill. But I can have the flavour of them. I don’t eat tomatoes, which, again, Dr Piggott and Charles Innes told me not to eat. I don’t eat oranges. And I, I juice up fresh fruit. I know I’m somebody who can’t eat veges all day long, so I juice them up every morning. And I think, OK, I’ve had my veges for the day, you know, I’ve had the...got to do that kind of thing I think.

So why can’t you have tomatoes and oranges?

I can’t... Tomatoes, it’s something to do with blood sugar levels, I can’t remember what it is. And I can’t remember why I’m not supposed to eat oranges; I think it’s the same thing. I don’t like either, so it’s no big deal. I’ve got one very dear friend of mine who, I won’t say her name, but she is a complete chocolate freak. She does suffer from migraines, she doesn’t drink, she doesn’t smoke, she’s, yoga, healthy as a flea, but she has to have chocolate. And I understand, you know, some people just really want it, and, you know, it’s doing you no good as such. But I think that’s the kind of area I’m talking about, that you... It’s like, if you feed a baby, a child, if they don’t like something, they just spit it out, I don’t like this. And I’m sure your body will, will tell you, particularly if you...if it doesn’t taste good, don’t eat it, you know. And I tend to stick to more sort of, plain food rather than... I rarely eat Indian. Some Chinese, you know, when it really is proper Chinese food. I know monosodium glutamate makes me ill. It’s those kind of things over the years I think you have to, I think, I just, no, that’s no good for me.

So, could you describe what you eat in a typical day?

Well in the morning, I have organic fresh fruit and vegetables, which I juice up.

Like what?

This morning I had celery, carrots, broccoli, apples and pears. So you got a real chopping board full of the stuff. That gives you about a pint of juice. And you have to drink that instantly, as soon as you make it. Along with that I take vitamin C, something called chromium, I can’t remember why I take that, again that’s from the homeopathic guy. Cod liver oil, it’s all in a pill. And one multivitamin. Along with that I have one slice of organic yeast-free sour dough bread. On a good day, that’s the only bread I eat. I try at lunchtime, it’s a bit difficult when you’re working really hard, I’ve never been a lunch person, I don’t have lunch, I would, if I’m being really good, I’ll have like a chicken salad, or tuna fish or, you know, that sort of thing. And in the evening, if I...anything except I don’t eat the bread. I don’t eat puddings, I’m not, I’ve never been interested in puddings. So if I was out to dinner, often I eat fish actually, because I don’t actually cook it myself. But you can have as many vegetables as you like. I eat potatoes. At least once a week I have egg and chips,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/10 F14683B Page 201 because that’s spuds and eggs, eggs are OK. I don’t walk around thinking I want a healthy diet, I just know not to eat anything that’s got dairy in it, so all cakes are out the door and, those kind of things. Eat nuts. But, that’s when I’m being really good. I don’t keep to this all the time. You know, people like Charles Innes say, ‘Look, if you’re on holiday, you’re obviously not going to be able to do this.’ But I, I don’t...I don’t eat a great pile of cream, you know, God! that’s the kind of thing that can definitely give me sinus problems, and... You know, milk and cream products produce mucus, so if you’re one of those people, you know, it’s not a good idea.

And when did you go and see Charles Innes, how...?

I haven’t seen him now for about eighteen months, but I went off the diet for about a year. That was actually for various reasons, mostly to do with cluster headaches, the last bout I had last year was getting, I was getting one cluster headache four o’clock in the morning, another one at ten o’clock in the morning, another one at... The idea of getting up and, you know, juicing up and everything, I thought, oh I can’t be... And I kind of got out of the habit. But in the last month or so I’ve started doing it all again. And even though I’ve got the cluster headaches, I will continue to do it. I definitely... I did feel better very quickly. And, you know, I had terrible sinus problems at the time, and they cleared up massively.

But when did you first go and see him?

That would have been, about two and a half years ago. Yes.

And how did you find him?

Oh he’s a delightful man. He’s a GP who, you know, so he’s a trained GP, but he’s moved over to homeopathic medicine.

No I mean, how...?

How did I find him? Oh sorry. Like I find everybody, through clients. (laughs) Oh I forgot, yes, just talking to people, one of my clients came in to see me, it’s someone

I’ve known for years, and we were... I know that he was somebody who suffered from terrible migraines, so I was talking about cluster headaches, and he then told me about Charles Innes, how he had got rid of his terrible... He was one of those poor people who, every Friday night on the way home from work he would start a migraine, which would last all weekend, until Sunday night and they would go. And he’d had it for months and months and months. And went to see Charles Innes, who totally got... He’s not had them since, and that’s years ago now. So that’s how I heard about him. And then I made an appointment, he’s in South Kensington, so it’s just round the corner. Really nice man. And, I told you, I filled in this massive four- page, A4 size questionnaire, and then he really does ask you... He will ask you things like, ‘Do you like thunderstorms?’ And, ‘How do you respond to a certain situation, what upsets you, what makes you angry, what makes you...?’ And he’s trying to give you the holistic point of view. And he mixes up medicine in the, in his surgery, and sends you, he might well send you a powder in the post, which, of certain things.

And what did you learn about yourself when you, apart from the physiological things, what did you learn about yourself when you filled in the questionnaire?

[pause] What did I learn about myself? Well I think I’m a, you know, I’m a compulsive person, you know, I’m either...pff The way I smoke, I can’t just have one or two, you know, I have several. I’m either all on or all off kind of thing, you know, I can’t... Half... I wish I could do the, all things in moderation, like the Victorian people used to do. I tend to do... I’m not doing that, yes I’m doing this. Not much, other than, a bit of self-help I guess, which is what we were talking about earlier.

Would you...did you do this after or before you saw Elizabeth Rockefeller?

Oh Elizabeth Rockefeller was years ago, fourteen, fifteen years ago. Quite different. Yes, it wasn’t profound like that would be in the sense of, learning things about myself in that sense. No, I was actually, I went along actually not, to see Charles Innes, not with any great expectation, didn’t particularly believe in homeopathy. And I was shocked by, you know, how much, not having dairy affected me, quite stunned.

What sort of newspapers do you read?

I wouldn’t say I read any particularly. Every day in the salon we have newspapers, we have the Independent, we get the Times, and the Daily Mail, unfortunately. (laughs)

Why unfortunately?

Well... I don’t know about you, I really... I, I...I think we get some real junk through the press and media. I hate the image that...I think, I’m not sure we spoke about this before. I don’t like what’s happened socially in the last few years, I hate the, this kind of fashion of... I mean, all over the front pages, I’m a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, I mean, who are these people? And, you know, Sir Mick Jagger. God! I can’t stand it. And, John Lindon[sic] was on this... I’ve never watched it, but I, I do kind of look at the paper and think, see what’s happening, you know. Johnny Rotten, anarchy, sedition, and there they are on a programme, I’m a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here. And I hate this kind of instant fame thing that’s happened, and also, people now... It’s cool to be laddish, and it’s cool to be loud and rude and have not very nice manners. I’m afraid, I’ve sort of fallen out of love with that kind of thing. I’m not in step with it really. So, I find myself more and more... You know, it’s quite simple for me, you know, I don’t watch I’m a Celebrity, Let Me Get Out of Here, it’s quite...I’m my own sensor, and, I’m still shocked by people who I would have thought would be more politically correct, and I don’t mean that in a pretentious way, who watch these things. Sometimes I find myself having to look at them because I don’t know what my clients are talking about. (laughs) Who this is. I mean hang on, I’ll have to check this out. Yes, I haven’t really, haven’t enjoyed that. I’ve never seen Big Brother. I... Sorry, I did see ten minutes of I’m a Celebrity the other night quite by accident, and, pff, God knows why anyone wants to watch that, really. And the idea that you can be well known or famous with absolutely no talent whatsoever, not really anything to say, you know. At least if you like, like Pop Idol, at least they had to sing, or they had to do something. But, this, what are they called, B celebrities, I’m not really interested, it’s terrible. It’s not terrible, and I don’t feel smug or otherwise about it; it’s just like, I’m not interested in it, you know, I’d rather do something else.

So why do you take the Daily Mirror then – the Daily Mail, sorry.

I have to say, I’m very interested in football, as I told you, but even that, if you look at their headlines, I mean... It’s not just the Daily Mail, they’re all the bloody same. Always looking for, you know, the gossip side. Oh someone, you know, one player’s behaved badly, swore at the referee, or, whacked somebody. That’s really what they will write about. And certainly in the past, when I used to go to football regularly, I’d often read a report the next day and think, this guy has not been to the same football match that I’ve been. (laughs) And, it’s just, most of it’s just junk, you know. I have in the...well, I’m also involved with a charity called ROC, which is to do with ovarian cancer. And so, often you get these headlines, you know, massive headlines, HRT, you know, and breast cancer, and makes it like... They way they write it up, it’s disgusting I think. You know, if you then carry on reading the article, you might get a little line that tells you the truth, you know, that if you take HRT it increases your chance of getting breast cancer by less than 0.1 per cent, which I’m not sure if that’s a fact, but it’s roughly that kind of figure. But if you read these articles, it’s like, you know, if you’re not, if you’re not able, you haven’t got the ability to read between the lines, then I think you’re going to be a massive victim of the image that the press pushes out on the television or whatever. And I think programmes like I’m a Celebrity Get Me just enhance that whole image of, you know... So few people, and I’ll give you an example, say, Linda and I went to the cinema last night, they’ll say, ‘Me and Linda,’ you know. It’s like, ‘I am first, I want to be up front, and...and it’s cool to be leery and laddish and... A bit of flower power might be quite nice I think. (laughs)

[End of F14683 Side B] [F14684 Side A]

So, but were you talking then about, about the Mail or, or, or all newspapers?

Oh female and male, yes. And in a way probably, we talked earlier about my personal influence in fashion, and what I like about, you know, I think, we talked about street fashion and Sixties pop music and all the rest of it, I think in a way it’s always been a, almost a sort of sense of conflict for me of, I love, I am dealing with people’s image, so, you...you...to want to deal with someone’s image, you need to understand a bit

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 205 about them. So you’re talking about their, the way they feel about themselves, and the way they want to look. So, you know, that’s, that’s how I approach my work as well, that’s why I’ve always...why I’ve not been good at the PR side of it, as we spoke about earlier, I can’t play this daft game of, you know, isn’t this wonderful, this is the best thing I’ve ever... I’ve sat in on, doing a TV commercial, you’re doing the hair, ‘This is wonderful, it’s new.’ And I’m thinking, there’s no way it’s wonderful and it’s new. It’s all right, we’ve seen it before. So I have that side to me that I have to be careful that I don’t overdo it, you know. And that’s why I’ve always, I think, preferred what I do is dealing with people on a one-to-one basis. And of course what happens over the years is, you, without you meaning to, your clients mostly are of a like mind. I wouldn’t say...that’s a huge generation[sic], but, there are certain people, you know, who wouldn’t want me to do their hair because I wouldn’t aspire to... I’m trying to give you an example now. You know, some people are so terribly spoilt and terribly rich, and you know, I find that hard to cope with. I like people a bit more relaxed than that, and, what Smile is all about.

And, you still haven’t answered the question of, why you take the Daily Mail.

Oh why I take the Daily Mail.

If you think...even though you don’t think the football’s any good. (laughs)

When I say I take it, we have the newspapers for the clients to read. I don’t actually personally... The only paper that I buy once a week is the Sunday Times, and that’s not that that’s any better. And also, the only magazine I will buy would be Time Out, and that’s, Time Out’s purely for me to, I love the cinema, and when the kids were small, Time Out used to be wonderful, it had a section called Event I think it was called, which would tell you all the things, it was great, when the kids were coming over for the weekend and I, you know, what am I going to do with them? And I’d look to see what was going on, and it was smashing. That’s good. The Sunday Times I, I, it’s an old tradition really, I first probably started reading the Sunday Times years and years ago when Michael Parkinson, my client, used to write a sports article, a really funny one, taking the mick out of sports, football managers and so on. So that’s probably when I... And it was a good newspaper then. It’s still not, it’s not terrible,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 206 but, they’re not quite so sensationalist as the Mail. So I don’t, I don’t actually... Smile buys papers, so that’s me, but that’s mostly for the clients. And I will also, every day we have the Evening Standard, and I have that too. For years and years I used to wake up to Radio 4, you know, the news programme, and I realised after a while that it was really depressing me, because, I would be following some political event, and realising so few of it was actually resolved. And I thought, I’ve got to stop doing this. So now I would say, I look at the headlines, I do, I very rarely watch TV, but I will see the news now and again. And, so, in a way, I can’t tell you honestly that I read a newspaper, but I will look through it, if something hits my eye, something I’m interested in, and I think it’s almost automatic now, without me knowing, that I’m very selective of knowing, well that’s rubbish, or, what’s the real truth about that? You know, journalism now is a, is...it must be awful being a young journalist on, say, the Sun newspaper or one of those kind of things where they say to you, ‘Right, I want that horrible story, and don’t come back here if you haven’t got it,’ and you’re going to be kicked out of a job, and that’s the... You know, we all respond to our time don’t we, that’s what you have to do. And I feel sorry for kids who are really in that area. You know, my own too, they have to deal with it.

So, are you...are you a voter, do you belong to a political party?

Not really any more. I still think of myself as a socialist or a social democrat or whatever you want to call being a diplomat, if that still carries on. I am, you know, I...I... Sadly, I was saying to someone the other day, when Lucy was at university, and she’s now twenty-nine, she read history with Italian, and so, she would sometimes be writing an essay... I remember one particular one about the Industrial Revolution, and we would have terrific talks about it, which was great. But I, I find myself, I still do have political debates, but not in the same sense as I used to be. I, I probably like a lot of other people, have really lost heart now, and this Labour Party are not a Labour Party. They are, they deal in, just like we were talking about the newspapers, you know, this spin doctor lark. I just feel[???] desperate for someone to say, ‘Yes, we are spending this amount of money on education, we are spending it on...and it will mean you pay more tax.’ They all seem to lie and... And I notice, I don’t have those conversations with Lucy any more. Maybe it’s a cycle as well, you get involved in your own career like she is now. So, you know, I’m basically mostly cynical and

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 207 looking for really, what is this really about, what’s behind the truth? So political, not in that...I’m not one that would... I nearly went on a march, I can’t remember what it was for now. (laughs) Some time. Oh it was the Iraq thing. Yes, I would have liked to...that kind of thing I think is worthwhile. I don’t like myself for not being more political than I am, but I have to say, I find it very hard to... I don’t find anyone that we can aspire to, that you think, yes, OK, he’s someone we should follow.

And was that different when you were younger?

I...particularly as a teenager, wasn’t political at all. I think, my first real experience with politics would have been, I mentioned earlier, Keith’s brother, David, David was a management consultant, and very socialistic, so he and I would have loads of massive conversations. And I think at that time probably I...so I was in my twenties, I realised that, I kind of more believed in socialism than capitalism. But I’m not sure either exist any more, it’s a complete mishmash of the two. In the Sixties, I thought that was going to be a massive change in politics, massive change in everything. And of course it has, you know, there are certain things, women’s rights, all sorts of things that have changed. But, the same, the powers that be are still there, you know, it’s still, who’s got the money. And doesn’t get shared out that much more. The old- fashioned socialism doesn’t exist any more, I mean unions also behave like the Government half the time, they’re playing the game too. So I guess now, I just get with my life really, and think, OK. Not good really, I would like, I would like to think I could change things, but I’m not sure I can.

How did you become involved in the ovarian cancer charity?

Yes, that was, that’s horrible really. We mentioned the McGowan family who have, you know, been my sort of friends all my life. John McGowan, that’s Cathy’s brother, his wife, Joanna, died of ovarian cancer, must be ten or eleven years ago now. And, and it’s a horrible disease. It’s one, they call it the silent killer. She sort of, you know, came from being a very normal person to dead in about, ten weeks I think, it’s quite extraordinary, yes. And during the time of John and everyone trying to get her the best help they could, we came across these people who were doing research into developing a blood test, which... I’ve got to be very careful what I say here now,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 208 because, I’ve got to get this right. That would help to show, would help to detect early signs of ovarian cancer. The thing about ovarian cancer, if it is detected early enough, pretty much before the second stage of cancer, the cure is to have your ovaries removed, but you know, you can lead a normal life afterwards. And that’s, that’s how we got involved. And we, we funded this experimental blood test for nine years, it’s called ROC, r-o-c, went to as many friends as we could to become patrons of the whole thing. It’s now at Bart’s Hospital, and because of the results of, of the testing so far, and thank God women’s lives have been saved just because of that, they were awarded the January before last £11 million from the Medical Research Council, and the NHS matched that with another, so they got £20-odd million. They don’t need ROC’s help any more. And we kept it going for nine years, we pledged to raise a million, and I think we ended up raising about eight hundred and something. But we kept it going all that time, which was terrific. And it was... It’s nice to be involved with something that actually does work. It’s still, it’s actually a blood test for post-menopausal women, but the research thing has been, it’s been terrific, and sort of, it’s still, still functioning, which is nice. So, in that way, we were talking about policies, at least we did something that sort of helped that kind of thing.

After you were divorced, who...or maybe even before, who did your housework for you?

(laughs) Who did my housework for me? Oh, mostly myself, yes. I have learnt to become quite self, you know, looking after, I can look after myself quite well. I think you do, because you have to really. I remember the first time I split with my ex-wife after, you know, my male chauvinist upbringing, and going to a supermarket and not knowing which end of it to look from the other. But in fact after a short time, after the shock of it all, realised it’s quite, you know, it’s, quite enjoyed the idea that I was a bit grown up, you know, looking after myself. (laughs)

And what about things like sort of, cleaning and the laundry and things?

I do now have a cleaning lady who comes in once a week. But, Katie had been living with me for quite a while and now isn’t. I mean, I just keep, I’m really, in my opinion, very tidy, not because I’m anal about it, it’s purely because I’m a lazy bugger

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 209 and if you’re tidy, you wash things up immediately, you do it all in seconds, and it’s all out of the way. So, yes, I go to the supermarket, I go to the health shop for my fruit and vegetables, the organic stuff. Eat out as often as I can.

Where, where would you go?

Oh, mostly locally, here in Kensington, and, King’s Road and Fulham. You know, you are quite spoilt for choice, not all wonderful but you know.

And are you able to eat, you know, according to your, your special diet?

Yes, not always organic. You know, that, it’s... That’s being like Charles Innis would say, you can’t always do it, but you, what you can do is just eliminate all the junk, you know. I mean, when I used to go out for dinner, before that, I would sit there and have a glass of wine, I’d eat some bread, you know, before eating something. As I said to you, I’m never interested in puddings, it would be... What I don’t... I just choose...it’s easy, so, like for instance you could have, go out to a restaurant, it’s got a whole choice, you could have Parma ham and melon to start with, and then you could have, like say the other night, I had swordfish, grilled swordfish. So it’s kind of, vaguely plain. They all put garlic on it, which I know, if it’s cloves I will get rid of. Sauté potatoes, spinach, any vegetables you can. And that’s fine, it’s no big deal at all. Nice glass of wine. (laughs) It’s easy really. Mm. So you don’t have to... And if I was somewhere stuck and I wasn’t, I was really on the diet and not having any bread, and say, even have a hamburger, just get rid of the bread bit, just to eat the burger, and chips, it OK because it’s spuds. But you just don’t have those very often obviously. It’s just simple, it’s not, it’s not a hard thing to... Apart from the actual organic shopping, which you have to do, kind of at least twice a week if you’re juicing up, because you’ve got to buy a load of fruit and veg, it’s not very difficult.

Do you have sort of, favourite places that you go to eat?

Yes, locally, there’s, literally across the road from me is a very good Italian restaurant called the Frantoio. He’s another client who comes in. (laughs) In... I often, it’s been a tradition with my girls ever since I split with my wife that we... I used to take

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 210 them I used to have them every other weekend, and I would always take them out to dinner once a week. And I still tend to do that. Mostly we would go to, there’s a, there’s a restaurant in the Fulham Road called Sophie’s Steak House, and they don’t just do steak, but, it used to be the old Parsons Restaurant, do you know that? So, mostly we go there. There’s a lovely little Italian restaurant at the end of Limerston Street on the Fulham Road called Olio, which is really inexpensive. Four streets up from me is probably one of the best Italian restaurants in London called La Famiglia, been there for ever, Alvaro used to be in the King’s Road in the Sixties with a club called Alvaro’s. So we’ve got that. Opposite the Bluebird up the road is a, a noodles bar, which do proper Chinese noodles without all the...it’s called New Century Noodles I think, it doesn’t have all that sodium monoglutamate[sic] stuff. There’s that. There’s an extremely good Indian restaurant on the corner called Vama, if I occasionally want Indian, which is very occasionally. Oh, I mean, if I walked up and down the King’s Road, you know, it’s sort of, Pizza Express, have a very Caesar salad in there. You just become selective. I think I’ve gone off the very expensive restaurants now, not, not for any...it’s not a mean thing or any reason, I just, I’m not looking for that kind of cordon bleu cooking, or, you know, at the moment the fashionable cooking is called fusion cooking; to me it looks like Thai cooking, it’s not much different. (laughs) And... What you don’t have around the places here is like, which must be one of the few cities in the world, if you were in New York, Rome, anywhere, bars, if you want to just go out and have a nice drink in a good bar, that is quite hard to find. They’re still in hotels if you want that kind of thing, but... Mm. So I...yes, we’ve got a huge choice. I love going to the cinema, so, often eating for me is early, you know, 7.30 when I finish work, and then going to see a film at nine o’clock or whatever. So I don’t want a massive big meal anyway. And I’ve got so many round here. I love living here, which is fantastic.

And do all these people sort of recognise you, do you feel that, you know, you’re...?

Recognise you? (laughs)

You’re...

‘Oh it’s him, oh Christ!’ (laughs)

No no, I mean, sorry, you know, that you’re a local.

Yes, you do get that, which is rather nice. Again, like the restaurant across the road, Frantoio, you know, I can go in there and, I know them very well. It’s nice, I sort of... You are a local, I guess that’s anywhere you live, you become... My local paper shop, there’s a wonderful butcher across the road, who, when I’m not on the diet, makes wonderful homemade steak and kidney pies and things, you know, if you want to go...all that kind of stuff. And he, at Christmas, cooked me a honey roast ham, because we, the girls and I were here, and we had people on Boxing Day, which is, he’s a proper butcher, I mean he’s really good. Yes, and you just walk in like a... And when I’m around, talking to everybody, saying hello, you’re, yes, not one of the boys, but one of the locals.

Because you, you must know a lot about what’s going on.

Locally?

Mm.

Oh yes, you do pretty much. You know, you know, a shop becomes available, and before long you’ll know who’s, who’s taken it over, what they’re going to open, you know, because it’s nice. Yes, that, more that area really. And, you know, I go and talk to local traders, as you say, you say ‘Hello, and how are you doing?’ and what... There’s a really good shop called Opium just up the road, she sells kind of Indian furniture and that kind of thing, I’ll go and have a chat with her and see how she’s doing, and, yes, it’s really nice.

What’s your...how would you describe your relationship with Keith?

How would I describe my relationship with Keith? Well, he’s certainly my best friend or one of them, that’s for sure. We don’t mix socially at all. There are occasions when we do, I mean, we’ve just recently had a weekend in Venice together,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 212 can you imagine that? All the jokes. ‘Oh are you two finally out of the closet?’ and all that rubbish. That’s very...very... But we might go to...

Sorry, who would make those jokes?

Oh, mates, you know, or clients. ‘So you and Keith are both going to Venice for the weekend? Oh!’ I’ll explain why we went, OK. (laughs) But then there are other times when, recently, another client...as I said to you, these clients become like, clients type friends if you like, had a exhibition of Allen Jones prints in, he’s got a gallery in Cork Street, and we’d go to that together, you know, because we know, those people would be going, that sort of thing we’d do together. But... And every, once a week we have breakfast together, again locally, here. That’s for us to chat and talk and, you know, particularly for Smile Management, when that was running. But, the Venice thing was quite rare, but this was someone whose hair I’ve been cutting since 1965, when I was at Leonard’s, he had a seventieth birthday party, and invited 105 guests to Venice for the weekend. I mean we all paid our own fare and hotel. And then she, there was a cocktail party on the Friday night, in the most wonderful apartment just opposite the quay from St Mark’s Square, overlooking the canal, which is fantastic. These two friends of hers were painters there. Then the next evening there was a black tie dinner and dance in the Monaco Hotel. And she literally invited everybody who...there were some huge captains of industry, there were painters, there were people like me, hairdresser. When she’s in London she employs a taxi driver sort of almost full-time, he was there with his wife, and her housekeeper was there. It was really fun. So there was the black tie dinner and dance on the Saturday; Sunday she took over a whole restaurant, and we had lunch, and then fly back to London, and I was back home at 8.30 on Sunday night. That’s rare, but that was... So, obviously Keith and I would do that together, because, you know, he’s cut her hair, not as much as I have, but you know, he’s looked after her too after all the years. So...

And who did you sort of talk to in that, amongst all those people?

Well the first night was a cocktail party, and you were supposed to, you had a number, and you’re supposed to find this person whose number... Well I have to say I lost mine. (laughs) Those kind of situations don’t bother me at all. I’m used to talking to

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684A Page 213 people all day long. One of the people I met there, pretty much in the first half an hour, you know, you just go round chatting away, people are... The first question they would ask you, this lady’s called Barbara Minto, ‘How long have you known Barbara, and how do you know her?’ So immediately you’re into a conversation anyway. There was a lady we met there who has a second-hand clothes-cum-art shop in Oxford, and she had bought these Viennese masks in a sort of, shop-cum-warehouse type shop near the Citadel Bridge, and then she paints them and sells them in her place. So, Erica her name was, so, she was going the next day, that was the Saturday, to find this place. And she turned up, and she’s staying in the same hotel that we were, so we went with her to find this shop. And we walked for three hours, peeing down with rain, it’s wonderful, I think it’s... The first time I’ve ever been there, I thought it was absolutely stunningly beautiful. And every alley you can imagine, we couldn’t find this place. (laughs) By which time we’d almost walked back to the hotel. Then she realised she had the address of this place in her hotel. So she got that. And then, her and Keith went off again, back again, and I decided I wouldn’t go again. (laughs) And what is nice about my job... Then I decided I’d have a little wander around myself, because that evening was the big black tie dinner and dance thing, and stumbled on Harry’s Bar, walked in there, met another one of my clients from London, who again is one of these kind of client-type-friend people, you know, which is great, ‘Come over and have a drink,’ and, that was a nice thing to do. And I... Really, you know, Smile and all the people that we’re surrounded with, we’ve sort of built up this kind of, I don’t know what you’d call it, they are clients, you must always remember that, but we do have lots of sort of, situations socially that might arise from business really. So, Keith and I really don’t see each other hardly ever in terms of, we don’t go... He has a whole section of friends which I, I know but I don’t mix with socially, and vice versa.

So, why do you think your, your partnership has been so successful?

Well we, well we’ve got a common aim, that, you know, our politics were the same if you like, like you were asking earlier. I think, you know, I would trust Keith with any money I had or any...so we don’t have that. We’ve had the odd word now and again, but it really is, you know, that’s over in seconds.

And what would that be about?

I’m trying to think of an occasion. Can’t. It’s that rare. [pause] I can’t think of one occasion. We really don’t row very much. [pause] And, you know, the nice thing about having a business partner is, Keith every year goes to the carnival in Trinidad, and he’s just about to go, I think he’s been doing it for like, twenty-two years, and he knows that when he goes away for three weeks, that I’m going to be there and I will look after the place. And the same the other way round. We trust each other. As I say, in the beginning it was very much, just breaking new ground, having a unisex salon, it was something we were both excited about. We shared a flat, as I told you, with his brother. So I’ve known him for, must be nearly forty years now. And, it is quite weird I suppose that people, you know, that we still are partners. In a way we’re very different, and I think we both had different energies for the business, which is good. And I... I just think over the years we’ve developed like, you know, Darby and bleedin’ Jones, you know, he’s going to do that, I’m going to do this. And, it’s, it’s, so far it’s worked very well.

These the...what you were referring to before, Keith sort of being responsible for things like the Christmas cards and...

Exactly. He... I think, most of Keith’s social friends would be, he’s got a lot of artist friends that he’s sort of, grown up with, you know, or grown...you know or met, and he’s, he’s very into clothes, much more than I am. And so, yes, I know that if we’re... And again, it’s just developed over the years, that if we want a Christmas card designed, we do design one every year ourselves – well ourselves, sorry, we find someone to do it, but he would be the one to do that. You know, equally, anything to do with the money, then I would do that, and he sort of, doesn’t have to worry about that, and I guess, that’s how we function basically. We both interview for new staff, but we always check out with each other whether, you know, that’s one we want to employ, or don’t want to employ.

And would you agree on... I mean, do you often...?

Oh, disagree on that?

Mm.

Not really. I mean I can remember a few years ago employing a new receptionist, and this girl was from Lithuania, and then we had another one who was a Russian girl, and really, it became a sort of situation, I said, ‘Well I’d be quite happy to hire either of them, I think they’re both very good, you know. Is there one that you prefer more?’ And he said, ‘Well I think the Lithuanian.’ I said, ‘That’s fine, we, we go there.’ So it would be that kind of situation. If I felt very strongly and say, ‘Now come on Keith, you’ve got this wrong,’ then we...and he would do the same. And we get on very well, I mean, you know. And I...and we have a mutual trust, I think that’s the real thing, you know, when I hear of some business partners trying to stab each other in the back all the time, must be a nightmare, but we’ve never had that, we’ve, neither of us never had that.

Would you celebrate each other’s birthdays?

No. (laughs) He is equally as uninterested in his birthday as I am. (laughs) It’s funny, that, because, everyone laughs at that. You know, I’ll very quietly, on his birthday, I’ll say, ‘Happy birthday.’ ‘Yes, fine.’ You know, ‘Don’t tell anybody.’ No, we don’t send cards. No way, no, we sort of, don’t do that.

What about Christmas?

Oh God! no. I mean he, you know, he’s...wherever he is, and wherever I am, we don’t spend Christmas together. When I was married... Well that’s not absolutely true. He and his brother, when David was alive, would often come over on Boxing Day, to see the kids and, you know. And if we, if socially then, I had some sort of, huge party, then obviously they could come. But we do have very different social lives. We have some mutual friends, like the ones I mentioned, the guy with the art gallery, went to the Allen Jones exhibition, that kind of thing. But, no, he...I don’t... I hardly ever see him socially.

[End of F14684 Side A]

[F14684 Side B]

What... I know you mentioned that you read a lot, so, what are you reading at the moment?

I don’t read a lot. Really, I don’t read much at all. But I do, when I do go on holiday I like to read. The book behind you, that, that’s my next read, The Restoration, or Restoration isn’t it? Resurrection. Restoration. I got it right first time, didn’t I. What’s the last book I read? I think the last book I read was a couple of, well last year, a book called The Reader, have you heard that? Which is a, written by a man called Bernhard Schlink, and, have you read the book? Can’t remember.

I’m not sure.

It’s about a, it’s a guy, the character in the story must be my age now, war baby, and it’s really about how the Holocaust affected non-Jewish Germans, and, I mean the beginning of this book, the character is fifteen, and having an affair with a thirty-odd- year-old woman. And, that would have always been my fantasy anyway, so... (laughs) That, immediately I was into this book. But that isn’t...I’m making cheap of it now, it isn’t like that at all. It’s... I thought it was a wonderful book about how my generation of Germans must have coped with learning how their father was maybe an SS officer or, you know, how you dealt with Nazi Germany if you... And then afterwards, you were their children and you, you know, your colleague at university, you knew that their dad was a, a real nasty killer basically, and slaughtered loads of Jews. And the main character of the woman, who I can’t give you much about, because, if someone read the book they would kill me for telling them the end. (laughs) It’s a wonderful look into a person with certain problems of how you dealt with Nazism. Must have been a nightmare if you weren’t a Nazi too, how you stayed not being one. And one of those books at the end where you think, wow, you know, what would I have done in that situation? Which is quite extraordinary. The other book I loved, not long ago, was Captain Corelli’s Mandolin, which I thought was wonderful. I like biographies, but then, they’re OK, you know, I read them sometimes. I like books, I loved Angela’s Ashes, which I think are all books about human struggle I think, about how people must have coped with it in their generation,

I find that more interesting. I don’t read adventure stories, or spy stories, or, that kind of thing.

And how do you select your reading?

Usually because someone says, ‘Have you read...?’ (laughs) And I say, ‘No.’ And then they say... And then of course, you do talk to other people, certain other people about books and you know... I know there’s, some people tell me, ‘Have you seen such-and-such a film?’ I think, no and there’s no way I’m going to, because you like it. (laughs) Equally, yes, I will get that book, because you think it’s good. Yes, usually that’s how I do it. With that book, the one I’m going to read next, is someone who I’ve just talked about, who, we like the same books and she said, ‘I’ve bought you a book, you must read it.’ And I will. When it will be read, I’m not sure. It’s quite hard for me to read. I cannot read in bed at night. Either of two things, either I fall asleep or I can’t remember what I’ve read in the morning. So I tend to read... If I love a book, I’ve finished so many books about five o’clock in the morning, and I sit up in the kitchen and, you know, read it at the kitchen table type of thing. Or on holiday, mostly.

And where would you buy your books, if they weren’t given to you?

Again locally, in the Fulham Road there’s a Pan Books shop, which I’ll walk into now and again when I’m passing and just sort of see what, you know, and pick a book. Buy cards from there too, they’ve got very good cards.

And where do you go on holiday?

Where? That’s interesting, I haven’t been actually on holiday now for about, maybe two years, which is very naughty of me. Mostly to Europe. I, definitely, the odd times I’ve been to America, like Los Angeles, and then, the...I went to Florida once at Christmas, which I thought was hideous. God knows why anyone wants to go there. New York once, which, I can see why people like that. But again that was a business thing. But each time I go to America I realise...three times I’ve been to America, realise how European I am. I love Europe. I certainly, if I had to, I’m sure I could

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/11 F14684B Page 218 live in Spain, I’m sure I could live in France, and probably Italy as well. But I’d find it, I think I’d find it really hard to live in America. So, when my kids were small, we used to go to southern Spain quite a lot, when it was really nice, before, it’s now become hideous, Puerto Banús area and all that stuff. I love France. Italy, I haven’t been to enough. The Venice thing was the first time; I’m sure I’d love Italy, and to Bologna once. So Europe generally. And, I hate flying, I really do. I’m not scared, or...but long-haul flights are just a horror for me. I mean I’ve got such a wonderful friend who now lives in Sydney, who I’d love to go and visit, but I just... I know I could go, it would suit me well, because I could go in the winter, I’d love to get rid of some of our winter, which is, you know, this particular month, February, dreadful. But the idea of being on a plane for twenty-four hours just... And you know, there’s no other way of getting there is there? You’ve got to go that way. Two or three hours on a plane to go to Europe is fine, but after that, I... So it’s Europe generally.

And what would you do when you’re on holiday?

(laughs) Yes, I, I do play a bit of golf, so I can do that. I’m not, I don’t like beach holidays, the idea of, you know, Keith, my business partner, goes to the Caribbean every year to the carnival in Trinidad. The idea of just walking up and down a sandy beach must be very nice but I’d be bored rigid. So be round a swimming pool, play a bit of golf, out for dinner in the evening, which I, which I love. I love, what’s nice about a warm climate is, sitting outside and eating, that’s a great joy for me. I love people-watching, when you sit outside a café with a coffee or whatever and watch everyone wander around. Swimming, and reading, I’d read, I’d happily sit round a pool, in the shade mostly, read a book all day long. That’s when I mostly read.

Would you go alone on holiday?

No. God no, I couldn’t do that. (laughs) No. Oh I’d rather not go, no, I don’t go out anywhere alone. I don’t go... Oh, sorry. I do go... I can go...I’ll happily go to a cinema in the early evening or afternoon, but that would be about the only place I think I go alone. I wouldn’t go on holiday alone, no.

Do you ever need solitude?

Sorry?

Do you ever need solitude, given you’re with people all day?

Yes, I’m OK on my own. But not...I think I’d find it difficult after a while. You know, when I...sometimes listening to Desert Island Discs on a Friday on the radio and think, when she says, ‘What would you do on this island?’ I think, I’d go barmy. (laughs) I couldn’t cope with... I don’t need masses of people, and as you say, my whole day is spent talking to people and being with people, so... I never stay in in the evening, I have to go out for at least, an hour, two hours. So, even if it’s just to go and have a drink in the local pub or something, I can’t sit in and do something. And then, after that I’m fine, I can come home, I can read a book, or, sport I love watching on TV, football particularly. Or, if I was...if there was nothing I want to see, I’ll maybe read then before I went to bed. But no, I don’t need to go... I wouldn’t dream of going away on holiday by myself. I’d get lost. (laughs)

So, who would you go with?

That’s a good question. Well, if I’m with someone in a relationship, obviously. Sometimes I go on golfing holidays, so that’s with a bunch of guys, a very different holiday. Yes, whoever. I used to take my children on holiday once a year just the three of us, and often one of their friends.

Do you still do that now?

No.

Or would you?

No, no. No, I don’t think they’d like that. They’ve got their boyfriends and, you know, stuff like that. Yes, it depends who...with a girlfriend, you know. That sort of thing.

When you say that, the golfing holiday’s a completely different kind of thing, what do you mean?

Well you, you know, usually there’s four of you, four blokes, staying in apartments or whatever, and it’s very much golf in the day and drinking in the evening basically. And although I like playing golf, I don’t...it’s not...it’s not my ideal kind of holiday. That’s just getting away, you know, and some exercise and some sunshine.

So how, how long have you been playing golf?

About twenty years. That’s my kind of, escapism in a way. It’s... I like the actual game, because I’m very... I used to love all sports anyway, particularly football, as a kid. The actual game itself is, is quite, I find fascinating, and, you know, requires a huge amount of skill. And I like the idea of, because I work indoors all day long, I’m outside, I only play with real friends, who tend to not be your normal golf club type person. The actual golf club institution, I’m not very keen on, but I do like the actual game. And it’s my once a week day when I just...there are no telephones there, you can’t have mobiles, where I just escape, and, I’m just outside, and, the whole game itself is absorbing, even if you’ve got serious problems sometimes, you can, it helps you to forget them. Yes, it’s my, my day to myself, if you like the solitude thing you were talking about, where I just, you know, I’m not a hairdresser, I’m not having to perform or talk to people. And the guys that I play with are great friends of mine; one is a writer, he just makes me laugh, he’s one of the funniest men I’ve ever met. So, for that day, it’s just an escape day, plus the game itself. It does, you know, that boys’ thing, men thing, sorry, can’t say boys, of the camaraderie of having the same problem, i.e. playing the game, sharing those problems, and, the...as I say, one particular guy, Richard, who, Richard Harris who’s a writer, not actor, just makes me really laugh, which is fantastic. So we, that whole day is mine to...I go down there, I’ll have lunch, we’ll go out and play golf. There’s a snooker table, afterwards we go and we play snooker. And I’m...so I’m often there, say, at twelve o’clock, and don’t leave till seven o’clock, so, Wednesday, Leslie’s not around. (laughs) Disappeared for the day. And I enjoy that.

And where, where is it? Do you have to travel far?

It’s called Richmond Golf Club, it’s just the other side of Richmond Park. And, I am going to talk about what we said, is, this is my whole area in life where I don’t feel that I belong in any group. We talked a bit off tape just now. You know, that side of my life, going down there, has nothing to do with my career or my... There are a lot of people who could use a golf club for their business as well, you know, the connection thing is quite amazing. For me it’s completely the opposite, it’s absolutely, it’s nothing to do with my career. It’s for me to spend the day sort of, with really good mates that I mentioned, Richard. That is, I’m...we are off... No one talks about, we don’t really talk about work. That’s not always true. If there’s something seriously going on, you will mention it, but it’s usually, the last thing you talk about, it’s an escape day. So... That’s another area where I don’t feel that I...that I never thought of myself as a hairdresser as such. And although in an occasion like the golf club when I’m with a whole bunch of blokes, I see people down there at the golf club and it’s obviously where they love to be, with a whole load of other blokes sort of, you know, they’re very nice men, don’t get me wrong, but they’re very happy there. Well that would not be my life, I wouldn’t be happy to do that all the time. So, that’s an escape day, and, although I go there once a week I don’t, I don’t...that isn’t my life kind of thing.

What do the other two do, the other two people you play golf with?

Well the other guy, Max, is now an ex-actor, and there’s another guy who, well, there’s another guy called Brian who, basically Brian’s been a salesman all his life I think. And, we...it’s the kind of situation where, if you’re not going to go on the Wednesday, you’d ring and say, ‘I can’t make it this week,’ otherwise we know we’re all going to be there.

And how did you all come together?

Those two particular guys I mentioned, Max and Richard, are from playing golf. They are now clients if you like, but they’re the kind of, they really are more friends than clients, if you know what I mean, they came that way round. And its, yes, just my escape day.

[pause]

Would you have mentioned...who do you talk to apart from Keith who knows about this, about doing, doing the life history recordings?

Who would I talk to?

No, who would you have mentioned it to, and what was their reaction?

What, about doing this tape?

Mm.

Well, apart from Keith you said, yes well Keith sort of, would understand it more than the others. I suppose some of them, like Max, like the actor guy, would say, ‘Oh really? That’s interesting.’ (laughs) Not remotely interested. The odd client who I know, you know, people who would be in the fashion world would maybe understand why you do these tapes. That’s about it really I guess of the sort of, not really...I didn’t have to make huge decision whether to... My first reaction was, well why am I doing this tape? And then...

Do you feel that now?

No, I’m not... No, I don’t feel that now. I’m not sure what good this tape would be to anybody. (laughs) But I, I...once you’ve decided to do something, I think you should do it, which I hope I’m doing. No, I...I don’t know whether it will be of any use to anybody. But I think as you said earlier, that, it is an indication of how... I suppose if I was listening to somebody’s tape, if it was made in the 1920s, I might find it very interesting, especially if I was interested in the person. And I hope that happens, not particularly this one but all the other ones you’re making. So no, I can see the point of that.

What about your family though?

My family? Oh no, they...they don’t know I’m doing it if you like. (laughs) You know, my parents aren’t alive anyway, and my, you know, I’ve got five brothers and sisters. I haven’t...but they don’t know about it I guess. (laughs) My kids do.

And what’s their view?

Oh no, they’re, they said, ‘Dad, you should do it, it’s really good, nice to do a tape.’ Yes. And I suppose it might be one day that their kids might...or, even themselves, might want to listen to it, which would be quite nice. If they wanted to.

Why haven’t you told your brothers and sisters?

I’m sad to say we live very separate lives. I mean I do, you know, I speak to my elder sister...

Marion.

...yes, occasionally. But, we don’t on the... I’ll ask her...by the time we’ve, ‘How are you Marion, what’s up, what’s happening?’ blah blah blah blah blah... I think this is back to my, how I’ve been brought up in the family, you know, I don’t, I’m...you know, this diplomat thing, of not sort of, unloading your problems on them really. As I think I’ve said to you once before, when we all get together it’s absolutely fine, there’s no problem at all. We don’t tend to live in each other’s pocket in any way really. Oh, oh, next time I speak to Marion I will tell her I’m doing it. (laughs) In fact the guy, her partner, actually works for the BBC, he does, he’s a news editor, so, he might be interested. Doubt it, but you never know. (laughs)

Oh well, we’ll look forward to hearing what her response is.

Yes. (laughs) I’m sorry. Wish I could be more...

How long have you actually lived here above, above...?

In the King’s Road?

In the King’s Road. I mean lived here yourself.

On and off since 1989. When I split with my, Janet, I’m sorry, I keep saying my ex- wife as though she’s some alien. When I split with Janet, this, we used to let this flat. And, it became available just, quite by chance, and, so I moved in. And then, for, oh, on and off for about two or three...I’ve moved so many times, different apartments, that it was very tricky, I didn’t know what the divorce settlements were going to be, all that rubbish. So I kind of rented. And the extraordinary thing, I still actually rent this place if you like, you know, I pay the, our business, a rent to be here. So, on and off since 1989, but solidly for the last, five or six years. And I love living here, it would be... If I didn’t live here, I’d want to live two minutes round the corner. I have loved, I...the idea of...a few years ago, when my kids were small, I used to live in Barnes and I used to drive in and out every day, a girlfriend of mine, when I stayed the weekend, and she lives in Barnes, then drove to work on the Monday, I thought, oh wow! you know. I couldn’t do this any more, stuck in that traffic for sort of, forty minutes or whatever it takes to drive a ten-minute journey, five-minute journey. So, and especially like last summer, when it was so hot, which I love, I realised that I didn’t have to go on the tube, you know, or get on a packed bus with loads of others or, needing deodorant and all the rest of it I should think. And so, I love not, not having to travel, I’m very lucky, it’s very privileged I think. That’s one of the reasons I’d hate to live in the country, it seems to me that everywhere you go you’ve got to get in a car, you’ve got to, you know, you can’t walk down the local shops. So, again probably, which is why it’s nice for me to go and play golf, is that I get outside, so, I do like, I love trees particularly. I mean this, last autumn I think was the most beautiful autumn I think I’ve ever seen, the colours in the trees were fantastic weren’t they. So I like that side of things, but I...but you know, I do like living right in the middle.

When you moved in here, did you, you know, are you living here with the interior as it was when you rented it out, or did you do everything to it...?

When we took this building over, which is twenty years ago now, it was pretty much derelict, literally, the... It’s a five-storey building, including the basement, and... I’m not sure we spoke about this earlier, why we... When we were in Knightsbridge, and we had a fifteen-year lease, we opened this one eighteen months before that one closed in fact, but I anticipated that we were going to have trouble renewing our lease, and we were going to be ripped off basically, the rent would become so massive. Which is exactly what happened. So then we moved all the stuff down to here. So when we took this building over, it was literally, I mean it had water running down from the top of the house to the bottom. It was an absolute...it was derelict basically. And it was a hardware shop, the basement was full of cut glass basically, you know, these people obviously cut window panes and all that sort of stuff. It took five skips just to clear the basement out. And then we, so we had to rebuild the whole house. So it was done then, this flat and everything. And then about, three years ago, we sort of modernised it, you know, I put a new bathroom upstairs and that kind of thing. But it’s, it’s perfect for me. (laughs) Where I’m right...it’s the location more than the thing. I mean, Keith for instance, if you ever go to his place, he’s got this kind of warehouse building now right on the South Bank in Southwark, down the river from Blackfriars Bridge, you know, and, in between there and the Globe, which is... Now he’s got, he...he’s got a whole bunch of people, which is quite interesting if you ever do get to talk to him, got together and bought this sort of factory space and redeveloped it. Which I can see the fascination of. I think... But by own sort of history, you know, I did all that stuff with my ex-wife really, you know, the last house I lived with her in Barnes was on Castlenau, and it had to be rebuilt to Grade I listed building and all that sort of stuff. So I have to say now, I quite enjoy the minimalistic side of this. About three years ago the whole place was painted here, and the bathroom was renewed, and just swapped a few things round. And then I got to the point, OK, I’m going to get this whole flat together now. Got all my pictures out, stick back on the wall. Hated all of them. But there’s no pictures in this flat except pictures in the living room of my two daughters, their photographs. And I quite like that, I don’t really... As I said to you, socially, I’m never in, I’m always out. So this is just, if I can keep it sort of minimalistic and comfortable as I like it, I’m happy like that. So, design, I’m very aware of, you know, talking about Smile and why it was designed in such a way, but, I like my own personal living to be as, in that sense, as simple as I can make it. You know, I’ve got things I need, a good sound system, got

Sky TV now, because of football and so on. You know, I can use those things...that’s really... I don’t need things, I really don’t need big cars. I like, I do like clothes, but I don’t have lots of them, and when I go and buy clothes they have to be what I want. But sort of, I don’t need, I don’t know, massively expensive things around me to, in my home.

And where would you buy your clothes now, where would you go?

Where do I go? I think I’m one of the only people I know who does not own a pair of trainers, hate trainers. (laughs) I live...shoes are usually, Chelsea boots, the classic ones, and I’ve been wearing those forever. I tend to buy my shirts at Agnes B. It’s amazing how often when I go and buy a jacket, it ends up being a Boss jacket. So that would be, you know, again all those things are roughly local to me, Knightsbridge or, that kind of thing. I live in 501 Levi jeans for the last, hundreds of pairs – hundreds, loads of pairs of those. If you open my wardrobe, I’ve got thousands of shirt [inaudible], lots and lots of shirts; they nearly all seem to be a shade of blue, I don’t know why. (laughs) It’s extraordinary how that happens. So, like when I went to Venice, I’ve got a black suit, that’s an Italian designer, I can’t remember who, sorry mate, which I bought in Selfridges, that, I can wear a bowtie with that. I can’t remember the last time I wore an evening suit because I don’t really like them. So, again, the clothes probably pretty much like this flat. (laughs) You know, they’re what I want. I’m certainly one of those people who, God forbid if I couldn’t afford those kind of things, I’d almost rather go without than buy, you know... There is a difference if you buy a really nice shirt or you buy... And ideally, one would have your clothes made, suits, things, which I did do, as we spoke about earlier, in one point in my career. There is a difference, they were wonderful.

[end of session]

[End of F14684 Side B] [F14911 Side A]

24th of March ’04.

Great. So, I wanted to ask you about Smile Management, and, you know, what that was.

We, I think I said to you before, we closed it last year, in July, unfortunately. Very odd situation, you don’t usually close a business that’s terribly successful. We started it twenty years ago roughly, so that would have been what, ’84. And it really came about, it’s something that Keith and I talked about for a long time, of... One of the reasons was something quite simple, was, if you look at magazines sometimes, you see a credit for hair or make-up, and it will say, you know, ‘Joe Bloggs for...’ some well known hairdresser. That usually means that Joe Bloggs doesn’t work for that hairdresser at all; that they actually sell their credits to those hairdressers. So, you know, say that, say that Joe Bloggs has done a session with Vogue magazine. He will then have an arrangement with some hairdresser or other where he, they pay him, the hairdresser pays him for those credits. So...

Why doesn’t he belong...where did Joe Bloggs come from?

Well he’s a freelance hairdresser basically, who does session work as we call it, you know, magazine photographic work, or it can be obviously TV ads as well. And so, that’s how they get paid. Which I’ve always thought, and Keith and I have always thought, was incredibly immoral. It doesn’t really represent, half the time doesn’t really represent what those hairdressers do, what, the kind of work they do. So, we decided a long time ago we’d start our own sort of agency. And that’s how Smile Management came about. We started it in a tiny little room downstairs in the salon, just with a telephone, and with a partner called Kim Sion. And, the other reason for beginning it was, it’s something we’ve talked about for a long time, was that we thought that, some other hairdressers who work for us would be involved in some of that work. So in the beginning it was kind of, make-up, hair and photography. But in fact, it didn’t sort of grow like that, it really... We started having one or two photographers who really took off, and in fact in the end didn’t have any hairdressers at all, it was just, photography, stylists, and, I think we had one make-up artist. And then we, and then it just grew into other things, and we had a couple of guys who designed record covers. But basically, very much photography.

Who were the photographers?

Well I suppose, the kind of...there was a lady called Ellen Von Unwerth, who, she is a very talented person. And we knew people to start with as well, there’s a guy called Steve Hyatt, Steve has been a friend of Keith and I, particularly of Keith, for like, forty years we’ve...no, thirty years we’ve known him. So he came on board with us. And, when we’ve had new photography... Well Ellen, when she, when Kim sort of started looking after her, was really, Ellen Von Unwerth is an ex-model, but she used to, when she was working, doing a session herself modelling, she used to, started taking pictures for herself. And, she’s just grown and grown, I mean she is now, she’s a very talented woman and very sort of well respected. Then we had another guy called Mario Sorrenti, and Mario now lives in New York, and, he’s another one... Nearly all the work is, is not in this country, nearly all the photographic sessions would be in Europe, America, anywhere else, and probably only about ten per cent would take place here. And it just grew, I mean just amazing. So... And what happens in a situation like, if you start having some of the best photographers, you will, others want to come and join you, we weren’t, in the end we weren’t looking for them, they were coming to us all the time. And it just got huge. In the last ten years I would say it’s either been number one or number two in the world, literally. Give you some example. I mean, there’s another two guys called Matt and Marcus, who work together, one of them does the set if you like and...but, then take the picture together and do the lighting together. I mean they’ve just signed a huge contract with Lancôme, I mean all the pictures you’ll see in the next two years will be taken by them. So it was really sort of, top quality work. It very much became Kim’s business, and in fact in the end we, Keith and I became very much like sleeping partners, we’d go for a meeting every Friday, the offices were in Notting Hill Gate, and, it was very exciting, and very nice to... It’s one of those situations, it didn’t sort of develop in the way that we intended it to do, but it just got big and became very much a photographic agency with just photographers and stylists. I think we had about twelve in the end, photographers. But unfortunately, Kim just decided she just didn’t want to be part of that business any more. So, it was all very amicable, I mean, I can fully understand it, it’s a tough business. At one point we had an office in Paris, so she would be in the office at eight o’clock in the morning dealing with that problem – not that problem, dealing with running that place. She would be working

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 229 really hard all day long, we had fourteen staff there. And then, you know, still taking phone calls at home, sometimes till one o’clock in the morning from America. And it was really sort of full on. And unfortunately she’s just one of those people who doesn’t like to delegate, so, everything she had to do herself, which becomes almost impossible. That was great fun, and it was, it was sad that we closed it. We were all doing very nicely from it, we would all come out with some money and so on. But I was, yes, it was sad that we had to close it. But it really was her business, we, we tried to persuade her to take a year off if she wanted to, but she really, she just wanted to do something else, which I...lots of people are doing that now, aren’t they, sort of changing their profession completely.

Mm. What’s she gone on to do?

Sorry?

What has she gone on to do?

She’s just become, she’s just taken a job where she’s a volunteer at Great Ormond Street Hospital, she’s going to do some work with children. I don’t think she...she’s going to take a year out. She’s forty now, she’d like to have another baby, she has a daughter. She’s going to take some time off to see what she wants to do basically. But something completely different to photographic work.

And how did you meet her?

Kim? When we first met her, she used to come to Smile, not as a client particularly. She was a daughter of, we knew her mum very well, and she came and she did some modelling for a while. Then she, she, for about a year she did reception work for us. And she was always just really interested in fashion. Kim always knew, you know, had her finger on the button of what was going on. And, we had this idea of opening an agency, and we just invited her to, to run it, and see how it went. It was very much an experiment. And, it took a long time, I mean, there were quite a few years when it needed to be subsidised basically. Within the last ten, fifteen years it just really escalated amazingly. I mean everybody in the business is absolutely shocked that,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 230 you know, Smile Management has closed, because, ‘What do you mean you’re closing this wonderful sort of business?’ As I say, I...in the beginning it was a shock, but she, she had been talking about it for some time, and trying to do something else as well. So, we closed it. Sad.

How did, how did you inform the sort of people that, that you were managing?

Clients? Well the first thing to do was to inform all the photographers. And there was a couple of people there who have splintered off on their own and are looking after a few of the photographers. Physically telling everybody that we were looking after, all of the photographers. And then...

Would you... Sorry, would you have doe that by meeting them or by phone, or...?

Both really. That would...Kim would be doing that. Because it...it does become, particularly, say, like Ellen Von Unwerth, I mean, Kim and her now are very good friends, you know, Kim has really shaped her career, she is literally one of the top photographers in the world. As are Matt and Marcus, Steve Hyatt’s career, he’s kind of my age and his career’s been absolutely rejuvenated which is good. And there seems to be a massive interest again in the Sixties and the Seventies, you know, Steve Hyatt for instance, he’s got a very particular style. It’s just kind of, everybody loves it again. And so... I think that’s the skill in, in that business, is, you’ve got, you need to have the new, the new kid on the block, you need to have the new photographer coming along. Which, which we did, which is, really successful in that way. I mean Ellen, do you remember, there was a huge campaign for Wonderbra, massive posters all over London, ‘Hi boys, are you pleased to see me?’ those are Ellen’s pictures. So yes, it was, it was sort of sad that we stopped it, but at the same time I can...it was really, for Kim particularly, really full on, you know, she was working twelve hours a day, and, and is just one of those people who doesn’t like letting anyone else do anything. Which is, everybody there got wonderful treatment, all the photographers were looked after, kid gloves almost, but at the same time, it’s almost impossible to maintain that sort of standard.

So what actually... Sorry. What actually would she do? I’m not clear...

Well, it’s very much like being a model agency, or like being an actors’ agent, you would find them work, and negotiate a deal for them. You know, and then there are often copyrights for the photographs. As I said, like, Matt and Marcus just got this two-year deal with Lancôme, so, they say, ‘OK, we want x amount of pictures per year.’ I think they’re using Mick Jagger’s daughter I think at the moment, I’m not sure, but they, you know, Lancôme have had that history of, I think Isabella Rossellini, one of my favourite ladies in the world, used to do it years ago, and there’s that’s kind of thing. And, well, you know yourself being connected with fashion, how important pictures are. And in a way, photography I think is almost, it’s almost better than advertising on TV, because, if you are Yves St Laurent or you are Lancôme, you’ve got to have your, you’ve got to keep taking more and more pictures, and you’ve got to keep selling your product. You know, and these photographers earn a fortune, you know. They’re like the footballers of the world now, the top ones earn a lot of money. And it was, yes, it was really exciting, and, it’s great fun. Had its moments when we, it was bad for a while, it wasn’t making money, and we...and then, you know, there was a time when our accountant was ringing me up saying, ‘Look, you’ve got go dump this business, it’s going to...’ ‘No, we’re going to keep it going.’ And then it really took off in a really big way, and has done extremely well.

So why do you think it did take off?

I think we had the right people. And also, Kim is, she’s just very good at it. Finding the photographers, you know, like Ellen particularly, Ellen Von Unwerth, I mean, you know, just liking what she did, and taking it to the right people. There was a time when periodically she would go to New York, and I don’t know if you’ve ever seen photographers’ portfolios, I mean they’re huge, big, heavy things, so we’d have to, she’d have to...she was there for a week, we’d have to hire a chauffeur for her to drive round and see all the advertising agencies, and you know, sell the photographers to them. And she has a wonderful eye for, for the new one, and also, you know, the right pictures. It’s quite a skill, not many people really have it. It’s like, you know, one of our clients for years at Smile has been Models 1, and they were the same, I mean you know, Jose and April, Jose was the one who would choose the new models. It’s knowing what the next look is, knowing what the right photograph is, and it’s, it’s

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 232 very, it’s a real skill. And Kim certainly has that. And I think Keith and I also, our history in that world of, we’d have our say as well. But it very much became her business, and, yes, we’re very grateful to her, she, she ran it very well.

And, who employed her staff?

It would be the situation, sometimes we would know someone, or... And again, once it becomes successful, people just keep wanting to join you. And you know, it’s like my daughter Lucy now is a TV producer at BBH, and they are, you know, one of the top, they make the best ads in the world and all that stuff, and people were just queuing up to work there really. It was never a problem. But mostly Kim, yes, she...and they... So, that was a nice atmosphere, you know, it’s fun when things are really taking off and you... You know, really the sort of clients we had, you know, would be, you name it, all of them, you know, Louis Vuitton, Lancôme I’ve mentioned, just all of them. Armani, like Who’s Who, was, we were taking...our photographers were doing their advertising pictures. Which was, which was terrific. I mean, it wasn’t, I found out quite inadvertently that, you know, models I would meet would say, ‘Oh yeah, Smile Management is, you know, it’s number one or number two in the world now.’ So I said, ‘Oh really?’ ‘Yes.’ You know, was quite surprised. And obviously everyone was really shocked that we...well Kim particularly did, just sort of... But she, she’d got to that point where she said, ‘I don’t want to do this any more.’ Which I, I think a lot of people are like that now are changing their careers. You hear it all the time, don’t you? Leaving their job, go and live in Spain, or France or, grow your own vegetables. Which is terrific, I mean, no, I think she’s very brave really in a way to, to do that. We are literally now in the next, pff, month or so, it’s taken this long to completely... You know, we’ve sold the office, do all the audits, pay everybody that we owe money, get everybody, the money in that people owe you. We have literally, just about finished that; the next few weeks it will be, a memory. (laughs) A nice one.

Why didn’t you think of getting somebody else in to run it?

We talked about it. And... There were other people there, but then for Keith and I, do we want to sort of carry on? You know, it was very much the three of us, Kim and

Keith and I. As I say, a couple of them have splintered off, and... And in a way, they didn’t, you know, they don’t really need... If you like, we were backers in the end, you know, we started it up, we funded it; a) they didn’t really need us, and b) did we want to be involved again? It was sort of, it was so successful and it worked really well between the three of us. Because she didn’t want to do it, we though, OK, let’s just get out as well, you know. Yes, it was as simple as that really, in the end. I’m making it sound very simple; this took about a year to sort out basically. (laughs) But in the end of the day, if someone says, ‘I don’t really want to do this any more,’ you can’t really, you’ve got to...it’s...one of those businesses, it’s like, like what I do, if you, if you don’t like cutting people’s hair any more, you don’t want to deal with people any more, you’re just in the wrong business, you’ve got to get, you know, you’ve got to get out. So... As I say, it’s very nice, we’re all going to get quite a nice lump sum of money, which is terrific. To be honest, I’d rather it continued, you know, because I always think, OK, that’s the end of that. (laughs) But...and as well, for Keith and I, we still have our own business, we’re still running Smile, so, and enjoying it and so... We weren’t spending a huge amount of time on Smile, but it would be one meeting a week on a Friday morning when we’d sit down with Kim and go through everything, and she was sort of running it all. No, it was just time to say goodbye really.

So, what sort of things would you discuss on a Friday morning?

All sorts of things. There was one time, I can’t remember when it was now, perhaps, I’ll give you an example, say ten years ago, where one of the photographers who’s not with us any longer sort of, took...did a shoot in Paris somewhere, it was for an ad, and the model that he used had a hat, and he thought, ‘Oh that looks nice, why don’t we use this hat in the shoot.’ Which turned out to be, someone had designed this hat, and then wanted us to pay them loads of money for using their hat. And that kind of thing, you know, that was odd, that came up. Basically, we would just sit down and talk about, sometimes it would be staff problems, or... For years we used to try and, we wanted her to have an office manager, to take all the pressure off her, but she just couldn’t let one of us do that. And that was half the problem, of why she got so tired and so exhausted with it all. And in the end we had a full-time accountant there, pff, you know, different people looking after different sections. There’d be two girls who

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 234 were looking after all the stylists, then we used to say to her, ‘OK, why don’t you let so-and-so look after, Joe...you know, this photographer.’ And she just, had to do it all herself. And she was brilliant at it, I mean, handled their careers really well, and, sometimes there’d be a situation for her of saying, ‘Look you can’t...this is not a shoot you should do, this is no good for your career. You need to do...’ this that or the other. And it’s very sort of high profile stuff. So it would be that kind of meeting. Often we’d go there and she was so busy she couldn’t see us anyway, so we’d have a quick coffee together and, say, ‘OK, see you next week.’ We’d just be there for her. In the end it became, the situation where Keith and I would be there, I think, you know, if there was a problem, and then we’d sort of, try and take over from her and give her a break from it, and, that situation really.

And what sort of problems... Sorry, would they be practical, or, or emot...?

Yes, just, just, mostly running the office. And, you know, dealing with... I mean for her, it was a day-to-day dealing with, she’d be on the phone all the time, doing deals for photographers, getting the right money for them. Sometimes their pictures would be sold, you know, a buy-out, where a client would buy them and then they had limited, or, limited use on them. You know, that would be... But mostly it’s getting new work for them.

And going back to the reason you set it up originally...

Mm.

How do you think it affected Smile?

It didn’t. I wanted it to, you know, I wanted some of our hairdressers to do session work, but it... What has happened now is, you know, when I worked at Leonard’s in the Sixties, I did, I used to work, I think we talked about it, for Vogue, Marit Allen, people like that, but also I worked in the salon. Now, you don’t, you do one or the other. That’s what I meant about these credits being sold, you know, if you are a freelance hairdresser, you don’t work anywhere, you haven’t got time really anyway. You know, you’ve got to go away on trip[???]. It’s one of the reasons I stopped doing

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 235 it when I was at Leonard’s, because, I was spending more and more time, you know, working for Vogue and less and less time doing what I wanted to do, is cut people’s hair. So, now, it’s very much become the situation where you either are a freelance hairdresser, or you are a hairdresser, you know, working in a salon, or like me and Keith, running your own business.

And is session work better paid now though than when you were doing it?

Oh yes, I mean you can... If you are one of those top guys, you...yes, you can earn a lot of money. Much more, you can...you know, it would be lucrative than... That’s why they do it. Especially... It’s the usual thing is, you know, this is in a way why...you know, when I worked for Vogue all those years ago in the Sixties, we didn’t get paid anything, it was just a credit in a magazine, which is good publicity, but... And editorial work never pays you very well, they would pay you peanuts. So, it’s the same, and it’s the same situation for photographers, you, if you’ve got your pictures all over the front of Vogue, the money you really earn is when you do an advertising job, you know, when you then get lots of money. And it’s the same for hairdressers, or make-up artists, or whatever. So they would do the editorial for kudos, but the money they earned would be, somebody like Kim negotiating a lot of money for them to do a job for, well I mentioned Lancôme or whatever. Obviously, you know... Good pictures make such a difference, I mean, you know that being in the fashion world too. Bad pictures, you know, are no good. So that’s why, there’s such a difference when you see someone who’s really good, like Ellen Von Unwerth, she is, I think she’s an absolute... I’m sure she will be remembered like David Bailey is today, she’s in that league, definitely. And when you look at her Vogue, she has exhibitions now and again, you go and see them, they’re very sexy. They just say the right thing. And, you...it’s one of those situations where you look at photographs; if they don’t say the right thing, you know they don’t, but if they do, they jump out at you and think, you know, wow, they’re very... It’s like a good haircut, well, or a bad one, it’s a similar thing really.

And what sort of person is she, what was is she...?

Ellen?

Mm.

I wouldn’t say I know her terribly well personally. She seems very nice, she’s married to a very nice guy, they live in Paris mostly. She looks, she’s very beautiful, I mean you can imagine, she used to be a model anyway. Yes, she seems a fun lady. And, she’s also spent her life in fashion, and I think she, she sort of knows...I can’t think, I don’t think you can explain it. You know, you just need to know what good, what good pictures are.

In all the sort of people that you deal with, what sort of, are there any sort of particular professions that stand out for you?

As, for clients you mean?

Yes. Yes.

I mean we’ve had a long history of designers. I think I said even earlier, back in the Sixties, my connection with the pop music, we still have so many people in that world as clients. So, I think that, you know, just, Smile has just grown like that really. And I may have said before, I remember a couple of Christmases ago, printing, we always design our own Christmas cards, have I said this before? I could have done. When I was printing out a few, just printing out the labels to send them, we still...we still have, sixty per cent of our client are women and forty per cent are men. So we’ve had that right from the beginning, being the first kind of unisex salon. Yes, now we’ve got a situation where, you know, we’re doing our clients’ children’s hair as well, they’re now in their twenties or whatever, and, you know, it’s, it’s nice, I’m very... I think we’ve still got a very nice atmosphere. And really, you know, Smile hairdressers in that way moved over to Smile Management in a similar way. If you start in one, you go down one direction, you just collect people around you who are like-minded I suppose. It’s very hard, cutting someone’s hair if you don’t like them, you know, if you really don’t, if you don’t have any rapport with them. You know, and I think it’s the same for, you know, the photographers who came to join Smile Management because they liked Kim and thought she would have, be saying the right

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 237 things about their work, selling them in the right direction. And the same when you’re cutting someone’s hair, if you really don’t have any rapport with them. You know, for years and years now, the whole time since, so it’s thirty-four years if you like, all the clients that I do, have been recommended. We, we don’t do any one hardly who just...99.9 per cent are people who rang up and made an appointment. You get the odd person who will walk in off the street. But I wouldn’t be doing their hair anyway, so that... You’re doing someone cold then. So when someone has been recommended to you, however, they’ve seen someone’s hair they like. And they don’t all come back, but, without you meaning to I think, you’ve given out an image and you, you know, people just either like it or they don’t like it basically. But I, you know, the name Smile was for that reason, to create a nice atmosphere. And I still think, as far as I know, I never go into other hairdressers, that it’s quite unique, and I think, without us meaning to, that kind of ambiance happened at Smile Management too, I think it’s different to all the others. More jolly, more friendly, hopefully anyway.

[End of F14911 Side A] [F14911 Side B]

I’m not clear whether it’s because your own natural diplomacy that, that you get on, that you’re presenting this very sort of, happy cosy world, or whether there in fact are times when, you know, people are difficult.

[pause] I... Well I think, I wouldn’t describe Keith or myself as tough bosses in any way whatsoever. I think, the problems we often have with, say, staff or whatever, because it is...I think a lot of them think it’s like going to a club every day, do you know what I mean? Not... It’s always a difficult balance to... You know, when things go wrong, you do have to, I mean the buck stops with you and you do have to be the boss, or you do have to fire someone or you do have to make the decisions. So, you know, and we’re often, I’m often in the situation where I have to kind of forget that I’m the one who has to do that, and Keith’s as bad as I am if you like. And I think as well, the other thing for me is, you know, I consider Keith to be my best friend, if not one of them, certainly, we get on really well; if we do have words, and I...pff, in thirty- four years I couldn’t even count them on one hand I don’t think, it’s over in a second.

But I meant...

So I have someone I completely trust as a partner. And, just how we started out, you know, as I said, the name Smile was to...when someone rang up and says to you on the phone, ‘Hello Smile,’ it should be jolly. It didn’t have Keith and...you know, or Wainwright and Russell, we are the stars and no one else. We try to collect people. We’ve always had it in our head I think, and if you like it’s not even been a conscious decision, it probably was in the beginning, to create chance for other people to express themselves. I mean you know, hairdressing is a fashion business, you want people to...you want new young people coming along. And the fact that we’ve trained all our own staff, I think it is more like a sort of family business. Occasionally I go into, like we mentioned, the restaurant across the road, Frantoio, and, you know, the same waiters are there, and the...it’s like, they’re like a family business; I always think those are nicer than, you know... I haven’t ever wanted to be in a corporate situation. Again I don’t think I knew this when I started, but, it’s just developed that way. So yes, I, I...I do think we have a nice working atmosphere. We’ve had staff for twenty, thirty years now, and they came to us from school, some of them, and it’s, it’s quite nice, occasionally I just look at them and I realise what know-nothing little kids they were, and they’ve come along and they’re doing, they’re doing quite nicely. And it’s, that’s very pleasurable.

No I meant more about clients.

Oh clients. You know, as I say, right at the beginning I think it was very different, because it was, a) it was unisex, we weren’t going to put rollers in anyone’s hair, so, immediately you made a statement, we were doing, wash and wear hair if you like.

But that doesn’t mean...

And I think they, they’ve been with us for years now, and they’ve just sort of, they like... They don’t know what it’s like to go somewhere else now either, if you know what I mean. Yes, and I think they, they, they come in and they see the same people,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 239 and they become... You know, there is always a balance where you have to, you are giving a service, but they do become kind of friends really.

And nobody...

Like the weekend in Venice, you know.

Nobody’s ever had a tantrum then?

What, clients? Oh, yes, I mean you kind of... Odd things go wrong. Very rarely. I mean you... But they do, you know, the colour hasn’t got quite as it should do; you just put it right, you know. What we always do is, there are occasions sometimes when, say you cut someone’s hair for the first time, and you can kind of tell, you’ve done something different, they’re not really sure about it, and you say, ‘Look, see, just, you know, wear it for a week, and come back and I’ll change it, I’ll, I’ll cut some more off.’ Can’t put it back on, but you can cut some more off. And, you know, or, you have the situation where you have, they’ve asked you for something specifically, and you’ve said, I think I said to you again earlier, you don’t cut anybody’s hair without sitting them down and having a good chat with them first, if they’re a new client. I always see all my clients before their, when they arrive before their hair’s washed, I want to...a) I want to get an image of what they look like, and I instantly think, oh yes, I’m going to do that, it’s too long, I’m going to...whatever. So you get the situation where you, occasionally you cut someone’s hair and it’s not, it’s not really what you, I, the hairdresser, wants to do. And I’ll say to them, ‘Look, you know, next time, why don’t you let me just sort of layer this a bit more?’ you know, and, and usually, you do, you know. And that, it is, as I say, it’s very hard, it is al...not impossible, it’s very...if you don’t like somebody, and you don’t...or they don’t like you, to give them a really good service is, is, it’s very difficult. And that doesn’t happen.

You mean that’s never happened to you? Or that you were too nice to...

(laughter) No, it does, I think, they’re probably the people who don’t come back to you, you know, that you think... I’ve only once in my whole history of hairdressing,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 240 and that’s like, forty-odd years now, I’ve actually said to someone, ‘Look, I don’t think I’m the right hairdresser for you. I don’t, you know, I don’t want to do, to make you look like this, and I think, you know, this is...I’m the wrong one for you.’

Can you remember what they wanted you to do?

Yes, this particular woman wanted a perm, and, you know, tortured hair basically, you know, which is what you used to do in the old days when you used to backcomb everyone’s hair, you’d wreck the condition of it so it stood up one end almost. And I just said, ‘Look I don’t do this.’ I remember cutting her hair. She really wanted me to put rollers in it, or set it, and I said, ‘Look I don’t do that.’ And she would come back, and she kept coming back, I don’t know why. (laughs) And then I just said to her, ‘Look I’m...this is crazy, I’m doing what I think is right for you, and it’s not really what you want, and probably I’m the wrong hairdresser for you.’

But that’s more about the hair than the person isn’t it.

Well yes, but you’ve got to remember, you’re cutting someone’s hair, to understand them, you know, the hair is very personal, it’s also a statement about them. I mean you, the obvious examples of that would be, when you have someone, say quite well known, their image is very important, say if they’re on television or they’re a pop star or whatever, you need to understand what that image is, and you need to empathise with it, and, if you don’t know that, you’re not going to give them the right look. Yes, just, if you like, like Michael Parkinson, I think I told you, a client for years, and recently I cut all his hair short. That’s kind of, make him a modern man, you know, and, you need to understand that. And that’s the same when you’re, when you’re cutting someone’s hair too, especially over a long period of time, you do...you get to know about their life, and you know, about their children, or, they’ve just got divorced, or something horrible. So you do become, if you like, sometimes confidants, that’s probably over-exaggerating, but you do become this kind of semi- friend person. And if that relationship doesn’t happen, there are some people, not all of them, but you, it’s more of a business relationship if you like, but you still need to understand... Because what happens is over the years you become very experienced at it, and if I do get a new client coming to, and I do, because you know, new

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 241 recommendation, I can almost always, ninety-nine per cent of the time, before even talking to them, know what they’re doing to ask me for, just by looking at them. And that, I think that’s just a skill over the years that you develop, you know. And certainly, I know what I’d like to do, so that’s, you know, important. And fun, I like that.

Have you thought at all, you and Keith, about retiring?

Quite a lot. (laughs) Yes, I do...I do...I hope... What I would hate is to be in a situation where I really thought I couldn’t sort of, cut the bacon any more, whatever the expression is. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, whatever the thing is. And, I would like to work a bit less now. I still work fives a week, we both do. As I get older, there are other things I’d like to do.

Like what?

I’d like to learn how to cook properly. I’d like to learn a language properly; I’ve tried in the past, like Spanish or whatever, evening classes, but just... The hours that I work, my average day will be, starting at 9.30 and very rarely finishing before seven o’clock. I still teach once a week on a Thursday, so that will make it 8.30 or later. It’s not... I get two days off a week, you know. But I like doing it, that’s the other thing. It scares me not working. Oh God! what would I do with myself? Also I think you need a huge amount of money these days not to be working. And for me, I just feel also that, you know, my children have, I think I said to you, they’re probably the most important thing in my life, and they’re just about, finished all their education, all their... I feel as though I’ve done that now. Yes, there’s other things that I...I’d quite like to do gardening, I wouldn’t mind doing DIY and see what that’s like. I’m quite good with my hands, I think I could, it would be quite nice to be a really good carpenter. Yes, those kind of things.

And what would, what will happen to Smile?

That’s another good question. I’d like it to continue really. I suppose what I would really like to happen in the end is that the people that work there take it over. Again, I

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 242 think I said to you before, a long time ago, we tried to do a profit share situation, did I, did we talk about that? Well we tried to run the business so that they would have a share of the profits, that would be related to each individual’s takings as it were. Which didn’t really work very well to be honest. But I don’t think that was their fault, I don’t think we... What it would have meant, and I’m talking about in the Seventies now, is that, I’d have to stop cutting hair and become an administrator and run it properly, and I didn’t really want to do that. But yes, I wouldn’t be...it would be nice if, if they carried it on.

So, sorry, have you...

No, Smile as I said, doesn’t just have our name, it’s Smile, yes.

So this profit-sharing scheme, you’re saying it didn’t work in the Seventies, but have you tried it since?

No. But it might well again now. (laughs) Yes what it really meant was, to get everybody to help you, at that time in Knightsbridge we had about, we had thirty-five staff, which a) is, you know, becomes, has its problems, because you’ve got more people to handle. The idea was that if you grew in numbers, and remember we were training all our staff, and that they helped also to get more people in to work with them, more hairdressers, obviously the overheads of the business become less. And what we wanted to do was to share those profits with them, on a scale, I can’t remember the figures now, but... What it meant for them initially was, they got a massive rise and then didn’t really do anything about it afterwards. But again, I think, to be fair to them, to make something like that work, needs somebody to just run it, you know, to actually, you know, regular meetings with people, OK, have you done this, have you done that? Which is how we tried to run Smile Management. You know, you have to, you have to make a real commitment to do it, and to be honest I, it would have meant not, certainly not working the amount of time I was, i.e. cutting people’s hair. Again, when you look back you think, that could have been a mistake, maybe I should have done that. But, again when Keith and I talk about it, we always end up by saying, well, we’ve done what we wanted to do, we’ve created the kind of atmosphere we like working in, and sure, you make mistakes, but, at the same time,

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 243 we’ve enjoyed doing it. I think I’ve talked about PR for that reason, the same thing, that was another... You just need to, as you’re going along I think, these decisions have to be made and you just have to be... It’s good, it’s easy when you’re positive about it, you just think, OK, I’m going to do that, fine. But yes, I would, in the short term, for both of us, I think we’d like to work slightly less days, as an immediate, something we want to do this year. And in the longer term, ideally I’d like the people that work for us to carry on the business somehow. Which would mean that they’d have to become semi-partners or whatever.

And how would the property be affected?

Well, when we moved here, which is again twenty-odd years ago, we managed to get the freehold of this whole building. So, in fact, Keith and I pretty much own it now. We could do all sorts of things, they could pay rent, you know, like they would if they were going to rent a shop anywhere. Haven’t really worked that out yet. But we do have lots of possibilities in a way. You know, we’re not beholden to a landlord, we haven’t got a lease as such. But we could, yes, if, if the members of staff wanted to take it over, we could make it have a lease, like, we could do all sorts of deals really. I need some advice on that one. (laughs)

Yes, I was going to ask you, like when you had Smile Management, and there were copyright issues and things, I mean where do you go for legal advice?

We... I mean the thing about the hat business I told you about, which was a problem, I can’t remember who it was now, but we ended up with a lawyer who deals with those problems. There’s always a lawyer for, everything. (laughs) Divorce, you know. We’ve had the same accountant for years, so... But in fact for Smile Management we ended up having a different accountant. Yes, and, and also, I know I’ve said this to you earlier in our chats, just among your clients it’s amazing how many people you know, you know, we...I... Huge clientele. I mean it’s always, you know, I mean there’s one client that I do, he is the international lawyer, I think he was the first one to sue the aeroplane people when there was a crash, so that all those people... And that came about because his girlfriend was one of the models who died on the plane, who was also a client of mine. I think he’s, as far as I know, the biggest lawyer in the

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 244 world for dealing with those kind of... There’s another client who was dealing with the mining rights, all the countries in the world were arguing with each other, like Colombia and all that, tin mining. Or, we know, as I said to you, a load of people in the rock and roll business who are always dealing with royalties and... So amongst people you knew, we would, you’d find somebody. Probably easier than a lot of other people might find it in a different business.

How many clients do you have at the moment?

It’s, it’s hard to... I mean when I printed out Christmas cards last year...

[car alarm]

Just wait for it to stop.

[break in recording]

No when I was printing out labels last Christmas, in our database we’ve...oh I think it was three and a half thousand people that we send cards to. And they’re the ones that we’ve got all their details of, which is, I don’t know, is that big? We’re quite busy. (laughs) You know, we keep very steady.

What about the teaching, how do you, you know, how...what...what would you do on a Thursday evening?

Right. I mean, at the moment there’s, there’s one person who is very nearly ready, what we call, we call ‘making them up’, it’s when we promote them to becoming a hairdresser. She... And then we, what try and do with the junior staff is that we, you know, she for instance recently has been working in, where we do all the colouring, all the tinting, and we... So, she’s seeing it going on all long day[???]. She will then in the evenings have models to do, who are usually friends or, you know, people that you can experiment with. At the end of the colouring treatment, you know, sorry, training, we also send them off to, either to Wella or to L’Oréal to...they do these day courses, which kind of, we, we think of that as just finishing them off if you know what I

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 245 mean. There’s a huge amount of colour to know, what they all do, how they work and so on. And, Razza, is this girl I’m talking about at the minute, she, we will move her from working in the tinting room, and she will be coming up to work more where we just do the cutting. And then, she knows that every Thursday evening I am available to help her. She will get a model in and we, you know, I will go through the haircut with her, or the blow-drying or whatever it is. And then to a point where we know that she’s ready. And this is what’s happened to all the staff there. And then we promote them, and then we try and, you know, gradually...it takes quite a long time to start booking them clients who are not asking for someone specifically.

And how do you do that?

Through reception, you know, if someone just rings up for an appointment. Sometimes it’s a situation where, someone’s got a friend coming in, or, and I will say, ‘Well listen, why don’t you let Razza cut her hair, because she’s really good,’ because I know that she’ll be happy with what she does. And they’re ready by then, you know, they’re... I wouldn’t dream of letting them cut someone’s hair, you know, that’s... When you train your own staff, you protect that situation well. And, all the ones that work there, they’ve been in the same situation. And as I say, some of them have been there, twenty, thirty years. It’s a long time, you know, they’re in their thirties or forties even now. We’re all getting older slowly. (laughs) Smile’s average age must be going upwards.

So, the other thing I wanted to ask you about is the sort of final thing about what you’ve thought about doing these recordings.

My immediate... When Sandra asked me, told me about them, my immediate thought, what do I want to do that for? And I, I have to admit, a long conversation with Keith. ‘No, you know, you ought do it, it’s nice, it’s...you have a chance of saying what you really think.’ Which has been very enjoyable, it’s been nice seeing you every week and having a chat. I think we’ve got on quite well, which is nice. And, what it has done I think has made me think about it all carefully. And when someone puts you on the spot like you do and say, ‘Well why did you do this?’ you have to think about why you did it. I can’t say it’s all been carefully planned, a lot of the time it’s just, what

© The British Library Board Leslie Russell C1046/05/12 F14911A Page 246 happened. But it’s made me rethink about Smile as it is at the moment. And, you know, try and remember what we have created really. And, I hope it’s unique, I think it is. So it’s been a nice exercise in that, in that respect, so, that’s been very enjoyable.

And is there anything that you would like to say or that I haven’t asked you about?

No, I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered it all rather nicely. [pause] No, I don’t think so. I mean you’ve just, I think the last little bit of conversation we had about what would I like to happen to Smile, that’s made me think about that more, although I’ve been thinking about that the last few years obviously. No, I think it’s been, I think we’ve... I’m happy that we’ve covered it.

Thank you.

[End of F14911 Side B]

[End of Interview]