Interview with Stephen LaPorte from hatnote Programmer and Internet Law enthusiast san francisco ca, USA

Learning by doing is a shared responsibility 3

Stephen is legal counsel for the by day and writer of free software at all other hours (sometimes overlapping). In this interview, he discusses what is and what he does for and with it, ruminating on the relationships between law, programming, and culture.

I.C.D. How do you define “Do It A.B. Yourself”? How do you see your work relating to this idea?

Stephen Do It Yourself (DIY) is a philosophy LaPorte or culture that believes that anyone can build and create. The phrase reminds me of early hardware hacker forums that I would visit when I was younger. People were eager to describe how they accomplished something (like overclocking a CPU), and this enables others to learn how to do it themselves. It’s incredible that a community will form around an obscure topic, but DIY groups tend to be focused on genuine personal interest. I think you can find a DIY group around any topic. I see a lot of Internet culture, especially in open source communities, driven by the same desire to problem solve, share instructions, and enable others to build and create. I think sharing and

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personal interest are a great foundation for I.C.D. What need is this idea a community. In this spirit, I release all of my A.B. responding to? software as open source. Occasionally, others take a DIY attitude and contribute back a little to my Stephen I am not sure. It’s either responding to: software projects, or reuse them for a new or LaPorte (1) the idea that I cannot do anything, unexpected purpose. It’s very rewarding when this only some specific things; or (2) the happens and I get to see a project take on a life presumption that I should try to do of its own. things well, instead of being happy with just doing things at all (even if I’m doing them badly). Maybe I.C.D. Do you relate your activity, these ideas are related. A.B. practice or way of life to this method / principle / I.C.D. Is it contesting something? technique of “I can do A.B. anything badly” and/or “Do it Yourself”? Stephen If you try to be a perfectionist, you risk LaPorte never learning something new. I think Stephen I am a self‑taught programmer, this is contesting the idea that you should LaPorte so I can relate to doing things badly be uncomfortable doing things badly. and doing things myself. I usually learn programming through trial and error, I.C.D. How and why did you which means you do things badly a lot before you A.B. become interested do them well. in programming?

I.C.D. What do you think Stephen I have been interested in how A.B. about the title “I Can LaPorte computers work from a very young age. do Anything Badly”? I didn’t study programming in college or grad school or anything; but I always Stephen It’s curious — people do not usually looked at it in terms of community building, LaPorte celebrate doing things badly. thinking about how technology helps provide or create community, so I thought it was something I would do with my spare time. I saw the stuff that

I Can Do Anything Badly 2 Learning by doing is a shared responsibility LaPorte Stephen I started. that way. Thisiswhat interestedmeprimarilywhen become interestedandcommunitiessortofbuild who giveyoufeedbackonthings,that otherpeople incredible thatyoucandeliverthoughttopeople with a fewlinesofcodeyoucanhavewebsite.It’s necessary beforeyoucandosomething.Basically, something simple.Thereisnotmuchlearning technologies isthatit’snothardtodevelop I could dothis,that…Thebenefitofweb was goingontheInternet,andI thought:Oh fact thatyou couldhitrunand itworked,youcould something together ina reallyterribleway,but the hard tofigureout! And I endedupputting hypothetically, andI thought: Ohitshouldn’t betoo video game, heneededsomething torunit system does.Myfriendwasworkingon a somewhere. That’swhata contentmanagement some contextforthedatabaseandpullit out have morethanone,youneedtobasically write need to easilymanagethecontentespeciallyifyou is basically like—whenyouhaveawebsite,

a content managementsystem,which fourteen, itwashorrifyinglybad.I made something I wasmaybethirteenor When I firststartedtotryprogram A.B. I.C.D.

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Elephant Dream on iteveryonceina while. it for fourteenyears,issortofcrazy. I gocheckup website isstillheretodaydespitemenottouching I was anenemyofthegiffiles!Thefactthatthis it waslikea fishintank,reallystupiddrawings, time, thatisstillalive.MyfriendandI drewcartoons, a different era,Internetwasdifferent. pre‑2001, sointheninetiesI guess.Itwas was It really youngyoujustexperimentaround. something youreallyhadtotest, but when you’re it mightnot reallyworkiftenpeoplelookatit,it’s it out.Thatwasexciting.ThepunchlineI guessis: right, andwhenitworkedyouknewhadfigured do itwronga bunchoftimesandeventually LaPorte Stephen possible. People arestillinventingwhatisoutthere. Internet becauseyou don’tknowreallywhat’s But asalways,thereisa constantdiscoverytothe you wouldjustgivesomeonespaceonthe Internet. get today,butbackthenitwasabsurdto thinkthat There isa websiteImadeprobablyaroundthat

A.B. I.C.D. Which issomethingyoucankindofstill give youfractionsofthewebserver. 20m wasa freeplatform,theywould Gibs.20m.com, I amnotentirelysure. A.B. I.C.D.

Learning by doingisashared responsibility interested inthelaw? How didyoubecome What’s theURL? 7 8 9

Stephen I liked debating in college, and it programming. You have to understand the grammar LaPorte seemed like a way to learn about things of it, understand the tool that other people are also and debate them…That was and is familiar with and understand it as the standard and a fundamentally interesting thing to that makes things work. me. So I went to law school. It was a fun interesting experience in its own way. It is sort of a structure I.C.D. What relations do you see that you can put on the world and evaluate certain A.B. existing between law and things, it is a way to understand stuff. programming?

I.C.D. What did you study in college Stephen Law has existed a lot longer than A.B. (before going to law school)? LaPorte programming. The legal system is much more ancient, it has a lot of old issues Stephen English and Latin. So nothing that have stayed around because people LaPorte computery! But to me translating Latin continue with the same legal system for a long time. poetry is not that different from writing The analogy I use is: When you are dealing with software. I’d studied Latin before, in a legal question, you are basically writing highschool, and I just kept doing it. I could, so why a program. You write a contract, you have to define not! I am not very good at music and not very good your terms. The thing is, in programming you hit at studying modern languages; but when you study “run” and you see if your program works. In law, Latin you can just focus on the theoretical aspects you get to to find out maybe ten years later if it of the language. You don’t have to worry about works. If you get sued, the consequences are, for going to Rome and embarrassing yourself. I never example, you could lose your entire company. The got English poetry, but there is a lof of Latin that risk is much higher, and the ability to check to see stayed with me, the structure. And now, working if you did it right is much lower, it’s really hard to at Wikimedia, I have coworkers who have Graduate do. There are a lot of similarities but also a lot of degrees in Latin, they take care of the Latin differences. But with both, whether you are doing Wikipedia, it is sort of intimidating! You don’t legal analysis or you’re doing programming stuff, want to embarrass yourself. you can drive by your tests, and if your tests are I feel like with Latin I really learned how grammar passing then you can record the results for future functions, and it is the same feeling with tests.

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I.C.D. How would you respond I.C.D. How? A.B. to a hypothetical argument A.B. involving a reality in which Stephen In litigation, facts are unknown. a lot all of the data that was being LaPorte of litigation involves trying to figure collected about all of us through the out exactly what happened; recreating Internet was used to create a simulation a scenario after it’s already played out. of real life, so that then you could actually Things have gone wrong, now let’s figure out what hit the “run” button to test a legal did people say, what did people do, you have to read concept and see how it works out in a lot of emails, and then people are going to argue this simulated world? about the facts.

Stephen The simulation concepts are more I.C.D. What are your feelings on LaPorte like Wikipedia rules, you draw a line, A.B. the terms Open Source and Free because you’re basically working off Culture? intention. There are two people and they enter in a contract. You don’t really know Stephen I like Free Culture more than Open Source. what the other person thinks when they read your LaPorte You probably heard about the back contract. You sort of guess. Language tells you a lot story… about it, but if you could actually know what they’re thinking it would be really simple, right? You would I.C.D. You mean the Open Source / come to an agreement. But when you can’t actually A.B. Free Software distinction? know what they’re thinking, there is a game around Like how they both often taking advantage of the fact that you have more “do” the same thing (release information than they do, you are a better guesser software under a license that permits than they are, or, you can be really precise and you freedom to use and modify the source read everything line by line. Litigation is different. code), but for different reasons, or based on different philosophies — with “open source” being motivated by the belief that these freedoms lead to better software, and “free software” being

I Can Do Anything Badly 2 Learning by doing is a shared responsibility LaPorte Stephen LaPorte Stephen LaPorte Stephen make thingsmoreefficient. what needstobedoneforhumanity,notjust making thingsaccessibleandopenbecausethatis commons. something, butcontributingitbackinto the remixing collaboration.Sonotjustreleasing

more ofthat,themoralimperative A.B. I.C.D. other peopletoalsoengageinthesame remixed, butinwaysthatencourage open tobereproduced,redistributed, Culture andculturalobjectsthatare A.B. I.C.D. end ofthings.I think of moralargumentsatthefreesoftware Yes. I identifyalittlemorewiththekind freedoms inallsoftware? is amoral imperativetoinstallthese motivated bythebeliefthatthere that youwould seeinanysort of culture, inclusive place.There isa lotofdrama I aminvolvedbecause it’sa really

I Can Do Anything Badly Anything Do I Can how didyougetinvolved? Culture Why areyouinvolvedin How doyoudefine Source 12 / / ? Free Culture 2 Free Culture projects and Free carries Open

Arduino but LaPorte Stephen that something is that somethingis that justbeingclearaboutthefact realize to start you a lot fromproprietaryownershipofsoftware,and Copyright systemandthecompaniesthatbenefit just howyoulearned.Andthenlearnaboutthe didn’t thinkaboutitasan I operated inaworldwherepeoplesharecode,and benefit from can you learning is. Soeventhoughwhenyou’re to expenses Because ambiguitycoststhetimeorlegal transaction costslater. with it,it’simportanttoengage.Otherwise, youadd that I wasdoingthings school. I startedbeingalittleclearaboutthefact if other peopleacceptit.Iwasfirstinvolvedpostlaw to learnstuff. Justtryingtofixthings,andsee have a solution?Ifso,proposeit.That’sgreatway degrees. It isabout:ifthereaproblem,doyou is notaboutcredentials,backgroundor Open Source

A.B. I.C.D. where I canadvise on I thinkI’mreallylucky tohavea job

think about what the state of something what thestateofsomething about think Open Source isfundamentallythesortofplacethat

Learning by doingisashared responsibility Open Source withoutactuallyengaging Open Source Has yourworkinthe some problems? to your lifeorhasitcaused community addedvalue Open Source 13 Open Source addsa lotofvaluetoit. / , but beforethen Open Source Free Culture thing,itwas issues.

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I am really thankful that there actually is an Open branch agreements, and trademarks. So we have Source community, but I also think that there are not relationships with them and we need to make many people who have an opportunity to work on positive relationships in the overall project. For this full time, and get paid for it. It hasn’t caused example, there is a German non‑profit in Germany, any problems exactly, it’s very open which means it supports Wikipedia, the German language there are of course lots of human problems that you Wikipedia. But the German Wikipedia is hosted have to deal with. In a typical company, users would by the Foundation within the United States. So they not be able to directly email the legal team and pose do outreach to museums and universities, just questions, but with Wikipedia they can, because generally get people to edit Wikipedia in German, we are very transparent and very inclusive. and then we do more infrastructure things. Of course, some people are difficult or don’t have the best intentions, and it can be difficult to I.C.D. So are they in charge? prioritize between things which are worth your time A.B. and things that waste your time. But I think that Stephen There is not really “someone in charge” is a human problem rather than an Open Source LaPorte with Wikipedia, it is more like other problem. I think a lot of bureaucracy is about chapter structures, non‑profits. Similar shielding people from human problems. to how Creative Commons has chapters they negotiate with. But in order to make something I.C.D. What do you do exactly at global we actually need people in other places A.B. the Wikimedia Foundation? to make that happen. We can easily host a website in the United States and then serve it around the Stephen I am legal counsel. At the moment world, but that doesn’t mean every country around LaPorte I focus on governance, internal the world is going to use it. So it requires a lot of governance. As a non‑profit organization nonprofit organizations. I do a little bit of advising you have to make sure you’re complying on Open Source licences and Creative Commons with the IRS regulations for a non‑profit. We’re licences. Creative Commons is a culture licence, not just one organization, we’re part of a larger you don’t apply it to software, you apply it to text movement of organizations, practically forty (or music or images), and Wikipedia is one of the international chapters, which are independent largest repositories of Creative Commons content. non‑profits from us. They are funded through So we end up with practical questions of:

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How do you comply with Creative Commons? how to make edits, understand the Wiki How do you build a systems that allows other philosophy, I guess? There are a lot of people who people to give you Creative Common licenses? use Wikipedia and are not Wikipedians, because Those are the sort of questions that come up. they sort of take it for granted, but there are a lot of potential Wikipedians out there, potential editors. I.C.D. What is your day‑to‑day work Maybe they can take a photograph, maybe they have A.B. like? photographs that they have taken, they can just give their license to illustrate a Wikipedia article. In the Stephen You get questions from people internally, same way Wikipedia tends to be non‑hierarchical, LaPorte and you advise them on those questions. I like to think about it as a pretty inclusive place; You research some larger issues. but there are people who disagree with me, and will try to make it less inclusive. I.C.D. How do you define A.B. “Wikipedian”? I.C.D. Why? A.B.

Stephen A Wikipedian is anyone who feels like Stephen Because there are a lot of rules; you need LaPorte a part of the . LaPorte to understand the rules in order to play So, there are some people who write by them. If people get too obsessed with software, some people who edit articles. the rules, they tend to be less inclusive. There are different groups of editors: people The classic question regarding Wikipedia’s who have like 2000 edits, they are really the core; exclusion versus inclusion is: should everything the people who have over five edits, we consider in the world have a Wikipedia article? There is them free editors; and there are the people who an infinity problem. If every building in the world are negative one edit, they haven’t even made gets a Wikipedia article, does every architect, who their first edit, they are sort of just out there worked on every building? Every company that reading Wikipedia. And I think a lot of them are builds any part of any building? You have to draw Wikipedians, if they identify with the website or the a line somewhere. So we set up a notability goal. The community is not just people who make guideline, and notability is not about solving the edits but people who understand how to use the content, it’s not a too much or too little kind Wikipedia, understand how to teach other people of problem, it is about making sure that Wikipedia

I Can Do Anything Badly 2 Learning by doing is a shared responsibility 18 19 can have reliable sources. So if there are no reliable But Wikipedians are all people, and we’re all flawed, sources available out there, maybe the thing could so you can’t expect everyone to perfectly interpret be acceptable for a Wikipedia article in the future, the rules, and there is not a clear authority you can but it is not notable yet. So “notable” is where an appeal to if someone is a bit unjust towards you. artificial line has been drawn, because we can’t talk Which means sometimes people are afraid of being about it in a neutral, reliable way, because third completely honest and transparent about who hired parties haven’t discussed the topic enough. them and why they’re editing, because then their edits would just get undone. Anyone can undo I.C.D. How much do third parties anyone else’s edit right? It’s very open. I guess the A.B. have to discuss something question is still open if being paid to edit could for it to be notable? produce neutral reliable material. But I think the most important thing is that people are upfront Stephen Enough. Those are pretty vague lines, about when they’re being paid. I have seen that LaPorte right? We need a few sources. It is hard when people are commissioned to write Wikipedia to draw a line clearly; but you don’t articles they’re often not transparent, and when need a thin line, you just need some line they get caught, usually it’s great. that gives a space to discuss and that doesn’t make Wikipedia the entire planet. Otherwise, people I.C.D. How do you feel about could put their blogs on Wikipedia, and it would A.B. whistle blowing in the end up being, just everything. context of knowledge and information sharing, for I.C.D. What do you think of example through wikileaks? Do you A.B. situations where companies think it is possible for an independent hire people to edit Wikipedia organization to have power through articles? the release of information or the distribution of some privileged Stephen You need to be transparent about who or protected knowledge? LaPorte is editing the article. It’s Wikipedia’s policy that people need to disclose on Stephen I am generally suspicious of an conflicts of interest and things like that. LaPorte organization that seeks power through

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restricting knowledge. I think that this applies Stephen Yes, I did some legal and policy research equally to governments and independent LaPorte on SOPA (Stop Online Piracy Act), and organizations. Restricting knowledge is usually bad helped with the protests. The SOPA for the sake of knowledge itself, as well all those protests were ultimately a decision of who depend on it. the Wikipedia community, so it was really incredible to see such a decentralized decision I.C.D. Do you relate your way making process. It took a surprising amount of A.B. of life and your modes of work to turn off a website. Wikipedians take their transmission, organization, project very seriously, and we did not want the and gathering of knowledges protests on to unintentionally to an economical, political or artistic disrupt service on other , or to deprive drive? people who depend on Wikipedia for information. For example, we provided a way for people to get Stephen Personally, I don’t think about my way directly to the Wikipedia articles on SOPA and other LaPorte of life in economic terms, although topics, since a lot of other websites and users would it’s hard to discuss knowledge without turn to Wikipedia for a neutral description of the discussing economics or politics in law. We had to be careful to balance that service the abstract. I believe that knowledge works best against our ability to protest an existential threat like in a legal and economic system that enables all SOPA to the project. It’s great that these protests types of creators to share and remix (instead of were successful against SOPA and PIPA (Protect IP systemically favoring certain classes of creators). Act), but now we have to figure out how to sustainably advocate for free knowledge. I.C.D. You were present during A.B. the SOPA protests wherein I.C.D. What do you consider Wikipedia went dark for A.B. to be the difference between a day in protest of legislation “I can do anything badly”, and being introduced by the US government “I can teach myself to do that would severely prohibit Internet anything”? Is “badly” here considered freedoms, correct? Could you say more as the opposite of “correctly”? about this?

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Stephen It’s a daunting task to teach yourself by hundreds of thousands of authors, at its core, LaPorte anything. I think that allowing yourself Wikipedia is very human. Wikipedia cares about room to do something badly gives you neutrality and reliability. Wikipedia challenges room to become great. a lot of contemporary power structures. Wikipedia is built on openness and decentralized processes I.C.D. To what extent is your work instead of usual editorial control. It’s easy to mistake A.B. in search for or has achieved this for anarchy, but in fact Wikipedia relies on autonomy (from a larger some very simple and conventional tools, rules, mode of mass production and structures. Users are all roughly equal and and distribution of objects and watch over each other to loosely enforce agreed‑upon knowledges)? norms. Precisely how Wikipedia’s autonomy works is a bit of a mystery and fascinating to study, but the Stephen I am really thankful to get to work on proof is visible in the end results. One of my favorite LaPorte the Internet in a time when the Internet sayings is that Wikipedia works in practice, never is so accessible. The Internet solves in theory. a lot of production and distribution problems for me — I essentially don’t have to think I.C.D. What relationship do you about distribution. I build things on the Internet, A.B. see between knowledge and then my projects can live on the Internet. and fabrication?

I.C.D. Do you see Wikipedia Stephen I think knowledge inevitably depends A.B. as something that is LaPorte on the way it is produced. This means autonomous? that we should choose ethical tools for knowledge production and fabrication. Stephen Wikipedia, like any community, has LaPorte a mind of its own. It has moods and I.C.D. What relation do you make makes complicated, nuanced decisions. A.B. between knowledge and Wikipedia can be slow and idiosyncratic, creativity? but I think it shares a lot of traits with encyclopedias throughout history. Even though it is written Stephen Knowledge enables people to LaPorte

I Can Do Anything Badly 2 Learning by doing is a shared responsibility LaPorte Stephen LaPorte Stephen which isimportantforcreativityandexpression. understand themselvesandtheworldaroundthem, community, themostdifficult taskissorting documentation). Ifyou arenewtotheWikipedia process of writingknowledge (inWikipedia you arenaturallyinclined towriteaboutthe is writingaboutknowledge (inWikipediaarticles),

mailing lists.Whenyourprimaryfocus documenting, usuallyusingwikisor continuously andcomprehensively Wikipedians shareknowledgeby A.B. I.C.D. similar interests. share anddiscusswithotherswhohave to dosomethingyourself,youwant communities. Whenyoufigureouthow I thinkthatDIYculturenaturallyforms A.B. I.C.D. Wikipedia? Isitimportant?

I Can Do Anything Badly Anything Do I Can creates andmaintains among thegroupthat experience transmitted How isknowledgeand a community? part ofa groupor as being relatedto Do It Yourself techniques To whatextentdoyousee 24 2

OSE (Open Source Ecology) this sortofwikicultureandhistory. I think C2andMeatballWikiaregreatsourcesfor cultures withdeepmemoryandpersistentnorms. discussion. Thismeansthatwikiscreaterich history, andmaybeconnectedtoa policyor on Wikipedia. Eacharticleeditcreatesarevision times thenumberofmetapagesthanarticles of context, almosttoomuchcontext:therearemany through allofthedocumentation.Thereisplenty LaPorte Stephen and pitch (e.g., isita netaddition orsubtraction? metadata abouteach changeusingcolor,size, to aWikipedia article,and alsoencodessomeother time. Each soundrepresents thesizeof achange visualizes andsonifies Wikipediaeditsinreal on Wikipedia perspectiveslife.Theproject dataxto create opensourceprojectsthatreflect to ourcollaborativeenterprisethatuses Wikipedia

the contextofHatnote,anamewegive Wikipedian, MahmoudHashemiwithin I madewith myfriendandfellow Listen toWikipediawasa project A.B. I.C.D. hope/anticipate ithavinginthefuture? community, andwhatimpactdoyou has ithadsofarontheWikipedia

Learning by doingisashared responsibility to createit?Whatimpact is it, andwhatmotivatedyou Listen toWikipedia?What Could yousaymoreabout 25 26 27

Was it by a bot, human, or unregistered user? I.C.D. What are the strategies Was the same page edited multiple times recently?) A.B. of making knowledge You can also click circles to see the exact change available that you use? on Wikipedia, or welcome new users to the site. Our goal was to expose the Wikipedia Recent Stephen I commit knowledge to a git repository. Changes feed (real time list of changes to Wikipedia) LaPorte to more people. Recent Changes is one tool I.C.D. What is your relation to that Wikipedians use to review each edit on the A.B. hierarchy? By what types encyclopedia. Many Wikipedians vigilantly watch of hierarchies do you feel the standard, text‑only Recent Changes feed. constrained? Visualizing and sonifying Recent Changes in real time, instead of a simple static page, Stephen I am rather comfortable with hierarchy. also illustrates that Wikipedia is a living project. LaPorte As long as I feel like I have room to It’s mesmerizing to see the random topics that express my independence, I am not people are currently editing. It’s a mixture of pop opposed to hierarchies. culture, recent events, and surprising, obscure topics. While writing some of the test code for I.C.D. What is your strategy to be able Listen to Wikipedia, I was fascinated to watch to A.B. sustain your practice, as one user spend an entire Saturday edit an article a creative programmer, from entitled “List of goats” on Wikipedia. an economical point of view? I relied on a number of great open source projects that made Listen to Wikipedia possible Stephen I have a day job. I am fortunate, because (including D3, which is a brilliant Javascript LaPorte my practice as a creative programmer library). I am happy to see others remixing my is connected to my day job. I like to work project, and I hope that it will inspire users to dig on a variety of projects. deeper into Wikipedia (and click the edit button!) and inspire developers to create new tools to look I.C.D. Do you wish to record at Wikipedia’s open data. A.B. or conserve your methods, objects, actions, in order to transmit them?

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Stephen I work on the Internet, so I don’t think for collaborative writing, but also faces many LaPorte much about recording or transmission. challenges. I hope that Wikipedia can extend Most aspects feel automatic to me, itself to adapt to the changing Internet. or they are deeply embedded within Maybe I am biased, but I am really excited to see my projects. I like the idea of building expressive how mass online collaboration can influence the law. infrastructure. I wish I did a better job recording When I was in law school, I read a speech by Jimmy my process, though. Wales (Wikipedia’s founder) about the importance of accessible legal resources. That is one thing that I.C.D. Do you think the drew me towards Wikipedia and open source A.B. methodology of Wikipedia technology, and I am optimistic about the could be extended on a large large‑scale benefits of a free/open legal system. scale, if it is not already? To what extend or how long do you think it would keep its autonomy without being standardized into more efficient modes of mass‑production?

Stephen Wikipedia is large scale, already! LaPorte Wikipedia reaches a significant number of people in hundreds of different languages, and everyone is invited to participate. I also think that Wikipedia may be undervalued as a methodological model. Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia, it’s also a comprehensive record of how people write an encyclopedia. Wikipedia’s open data and permissive and powerful APIs allow researchers to learn from Wikipedia, but I am surprised that it’s not better understood. The methodology of Wikipedia works well

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