I I I I I Early Days of Zippel Bay State Park Area I Transcript of Oral Interview with I Carl Grovom at his home, south of the Projectpark I August 18, 1986 Interviewers: Society I Diane M. Morris, RegionalHistory Parks Office, Bemidji I Gladwin Lynne, Naturalist, Oral I Historical I Bay I I Zippel I I I I I 0\-\ \"2- I

I Zippel Bay Oral History Project I This interview is one of several conducted by the State Park Interpretive Program, Region I, Department of I Natural Resources.

I The main purpose was to gather information about the early years of the Zippel Bay State Park area, specifically I about the Zippel Bay "townsite", the fishery located there and the life and times of early residents. Information I gathered will be used as background for brochures and/or informative signing for use at the ZippelProject "townsite" and I elsewhere within the park. Transcripts of these interviews will beSociety kept on file I at: Beltrami County Historical Society Lake-of-the-Woods CountyHistory Historical Society (Museum) ·~ortb CQutral MiuuQsota History CQutQ~ I Regional Parks Interpretive Office, DNR, Bemidji, MN Zippel Bay State Park I In addition, copiesOral of the original tape are on file at: Regional Parks InterpretiveHistorical Office, DNR, Bemidji t.ot~h Cehtrl!ll Mil'lfteeotl!l IIietery Geft"Ee!', Bemidji (NOTE: County was part of I BayBeltrami County until January I, 1923)

I Thank you to Carl Grovom for his willingness to share what he remembers of these early years in the Zippel I BayZippel State Park area. Minnesota I

Diane M. Morris, I Compiler I I I I

I Early Days of Zippel Bay state Park Area Transcript of Oral Interview with

I Carl Grovom I at his home, south of the park August 18, 1986 I Interviewers: Diane M. Morris, Regional Parks Office, Bemidji

I Gladwin Lynne, Naturalist, Lake Bronson state Park I Diane: We're at the home of Carl GrovomProject today, I August 18, 1986, and we would like to talk with Carl a little bit about the old Zippel Bay town site.Society Now I I don't happen to know anything about the town site, Carl, History except that there was one there.

I Carl: What you want to know is where the fishery was I and the first white Oralsettler and that? Gladwin: Fine. Historical I Carl: That'sBay where you're going to dig the channel too.

I Diane: We've heard a little bit about that. I ZippelCarl: I don't want to brag, but if there's anybody who knowsMinnesota the whole works down there, I do. I can even I draw an illustration where the house and everything was along the beaches.

I Diane: This is a map of the park, but it doesn't I get specific to the town site. I just thought I'd bring it along. I I I 2

I Carl: Yes. Well, the way the engineers are going to dig that new channel-- I don't approve of it. I was at

I the channel meeting. They're digging where I suggested; I but, instead of corning parallel with the shore, where the old dike was, here they've got it corning straight out ... I This is a poor map of it (referring to front page aerial photo in recent Baudette newspaper). Here's where the

I fishery was. And then over on the rock, here, was the I house. But anyway, between there and it was a little hollow there. But here, they've taken someProject of that island I off and then go straight out in the lake which I think would be foolish, because they'll save money.Society Now, if I they'd have taken more of that island over here and had History it parallel with the shore they'd corne right in the old

I channel, where the old channel was. That way they I wouldn't have to makeOral two jetties. Diane: Now you said thisHistorical is where the fishery was? I And this is whereBay the town site was? Or, what did you call that? Let's mark it on this map (referring to state

I park map). The fishery was over here? I ZippelCarl: Let me see now, when was this made? Diane:Minnesota Well, I'm not really sure how old this map I is, Carl. Gladwin: Look on the back and see if it's got a

I date. It's fairly recent, I would say it's in the '70s. I Carl: This is all land here. Clear over here and then there's just a tiny little pocket. Well, in the I I I 3

I early days, the man, Zippel, had 20 men working for him, ten in the woods and ten in the fishery. In order to get

I in where the fishery was, they had to load everything by I hand. He had his hired men start with the shovel one night to see ... because the bay was 3 feet higher than the I lake. When they got it started, the next morning they couldn't put a 16-foot-long pike pole in and hit bottom.

I Well then, that was the channel. Right shortly after, is I when the government made the dike. So the government never dug the channel; that was natural dug.Project I Diane: So the channel at that point ran right about through here? Society I Carl: Yes. History Diane: You can draw on this map, that's no problem,

I if you want to. I Carl: (Drawing mapOral on plain piece of paper). Here's where the fishery and the fishHistorical house was. Over here were I some cabins forBay the hired men and right over here was the house. I got the picture of the house, too.

I Diane: Oh, do you? I ZippelCarl: But I don't know if I can find it. Diane:Minnesota Oh, we would love to see it. I Carl: Over here was the barn. And then they had a corduroy, from the woods in. Logs and then wood on top ...

I (it) came in. There's where the old channel was, right I there. Here was the big rock, right here. Here's the shore. And from the rock (marked with an X) over to the I I I 4

I old channel (was) about as far from the lake as this house. And the jetty went far enough east so when you get

I the northwest wind, which is more or less (the case), you I wouldn't have any fill in. But then that wore out and wore out and wore out so, by ice pushing you know, and boy I it can sure push, that ice. Then, later on, it washed through the bar, and that was always filling up ... (Carl I got a picture to show us). That's a neighbor boy. Here's I the lake over here and here's the house and right there is about where the rock is. This was taken Projectin the I wintertime. That was the house. Diane: Is the barn kind of behind him Societyor is it I further off? History Carl: The barn, you see that kind of a hollow

I there? That's the corduroy going out and right along side I that behind the houseOral that was the barn. Yeah, that was a big house, too. Historical I Diane: ItBay looks kind of big. And that's a post card. Carl: It's a post card, years ago ... old time ...

I Diane: Do you think that it would be possible for us I toZippel get a copy of this? Could we borrow it for a while? Carl:Minnesota Sure, you can. As a matter of fact, you can I have it because it doesn't mean too much to me. Diane: We'd be happy to just make a copy and return

I it. So, was there ever more than just a house and a barn I there, as time went on or ... ? I I ... I 5

I Carl: Oh yes, right out from that rock is where they had the twine house. Where they took the twine in and

I washed it and retarred it. That was just about where the I cross is here. And they'd use it for dances, too, you know. Oh, they'd come from far and wide. I Diane: How big was that? Carl: I'd say it must've been about 35 by 40 (feet),

I something like that. The house, that had three rooms I downstairs, four upstairs and a sort of a little living room and a big kitchen and then they had Projecta drop down. You I could see the drop down there, with a shanty roof. About that far down was the rock (the slab) it wasSociety built right I on, practically on a rock, you know. History Diane: About 2-3 feet down?

I Carl: Yes. Boy, the wood that they got, holy I smokes. 13-14 tiers, Oralas long as this house there, for cooking. She cooked for thoseHistorical 20 men. And, when they took I logs across theBay lake, in booms, up to the Spooner Mill, a lot of times a storm would come up and they'd bust them.

I So here they'd come in hungry and she'd feed them. Could I sheZippel cook! She could make a meal for a half a dozen, in just, justMinnesota a few minutes. Boy, she knew how to do it! I And lard those days, you didn't buy 'em in pounds, you buy 'em in big cans.

I Gladwin: Where did the men stay? I Carl: They had cabins, small cabins along here. Here was the main fishhouse. Right there. And they'd I I I 6

I come in and unload. Then, right across here were two or three cabins where the hired men stayed.

I Diane: Carl, can I mark on that map that you're I drawing here-- the fishhouse is this one? 'A' is the fishhouse and then these would be two or three cabins I along here? I'll mark them with 'Bs'. This was the house, that's 'C'. This was the barn, that's '0'. And

I 'E' will be the twine house and then 'X' was the rock. I Carl: Yeah, well, it's practically all rock, but it's, kind of dirt on top, a little bit ...Project and that rock is I more important in one way to me on account of that channel. Diane: Okay. Then this was the corduroySociety road? I We'll call that 'F'. History Carl: 'Course, it was a little bit more in from the

I shore line here, you know. You know, you think when I you're looking out you'reOral looking north but you're not. Diane: Okay, and then Historicalthe channel you were talking I about is rightBay here? This we'll label 'G'. Carl: Of course, this was all marsh here ... that is,

I marshy water ... well that was land here all the way clear I toZippel Marschalk's and then I think it's 2 miles more and then you turnMinnesota into Long Point Resort. I Diane: Marschalk is the name of some people who had a place there?

I Carl: Yes. They were up here, we had nets out here I and here. That's where Marschalk's was. They were old E I I 7

I settlers,too. I don't remember what year it was, they come in.

I Gladwin: What year did Zippel Bay first start I building? Carl: Zippel, himself, moved in in 1887 or '86, I I think. 'Cause I heard him tell about, down here, they could take a stubble plow and plow all the way up to I Skjie's Rock (see appended notes). Now Skjie's Rock is I back in here some place. Diane: Right by what's now the boat Projectramp? I Carl: Yes, right there. That's a great big rock. Oh, its big. We used to plant hay way backSociety here, with I horses ... things is changed. HistoryWell, here, I was born in 1908. They say the 1910 fire went through here. There

I wasn't a spear of jackpine as far as your eyes could see, I nothing, only an odd Oralscattered one. Well then, it was only, more or less, white pine,Historical just scattered. And the I biggest one--haveBay you been down to the lake, by the park road?

I Diane: No, we haven't yet. I ZippelCarl: When you get down to the lake there (on the park road,Minnesota in a little hollow), the biggest one is 5'5" I through. Of course they had those six-foot saws and they had to cut notches on both sides 'til they could get a

I little motion. I don't remember if they said how many I thousand feet was in just that one tree. Five feet, five inches, that's quite a tree. I I I 8

I Gladwin: What was the original forest here then, jack pine with a few scattered white pines?

I Carl: Yes, the white pines they were scattered. I More or less. Along the bay, there were white pine. Where my brother had the homestead shack, you could see I the trace (of the shack) in the ground yet, there were old jack pines. They're still standing there. There's where

I they got the seed. There might have been an odd one I further over, but otherwise, it was open prairie as far as the eye could see. Before the folks movedProject in, when Zippel I had hired men, I guess some of them were Indians; they had the Indian tepees they lived in. Well, in Societythe early days, I Zippel took his fish with the wagon. He had the fish History boxes in one wagon and plenty of ice in the other, and he

I followed the lake shore clear to Warroad and he took the I fish to Steven. AndOral it took 2 days to go to Steven and 2 days to come back. Well thenHistorical later on, he went clear I across the lakeBay and took them to Warroad. So that would've made an awful lot of difference.

I Diane: You said Zippel came here in ... ? I ZippelCarl: It was 1886 or 7. Diane:Minnesota About how old was he then? I Carl: Oh, gosh, I couldn't really say. He was probably in his 40s. He came from, I think it

I was ... Sheboygan, Michigan. He fished up there before he I come here. He was German and he always had a kind of a German brogue. I I I 9

I Diane: So he and his wife moved here then and built ... ?

I Carl: Yeah, and then they had two boys, I don't I remember if they were born here, probably was just born before they moved out. Well, anyway, when the folks went, I then they took over the fishing, I know I worked as a fisherman there. That was hard work. 'Cause you get

I wet. I was to the chiropractor, Saturday. Been bothered I so much with aches and pains in my legs. You'd get wet from here down and you had no way of goingProject and getting I anything dry on. And then when you get old like I am, well then, I never saw or heard of fishermanSociety yet that I didn't complain about rheumatism and that. History I Gladwin: I have a question about your twine house. What was the purpose of the twine house and why were they I redoing this twine? Oral Carl: Well, you see, they'veHistorical got chemical threads I now; but beforeBay it was just cord-like. And if they left it in the lake too long it would rot. So in August they'd

I take them (the nets) up and wash them and get them clean I andZippel take them out and put them in the tar vat. I didn't get in onMinnesota that. That was dangerous I guess. One time it I caught on fire. If you put water on that you can't kill it. It burned up some nets. They put them in the tar and

I then they hang them out to dry and that preserves the I thread. I I I 10

I Diane: So it was maybe something like a cotton thread?

I Carl: Yes, it was cotton. But in later years, they I got some fiber that didn't rot, so they didn't have to (tar it). This side of Bostic Creek Bridge, is Randall's I place. On the south side you might even see some nets hanging. There's an old house back there just across the

I road from the Bridge, I think there's some nets hanging on I the posts there yet. They were probably an inch mesh. Diane: You said the boys took over whenProject the folks I died then? Or did the folks move on? Carl: She was married three times. BaderSociety was the I first one, that was before they come from Sheboygan. When History he died, she married Zippel out there in Sheboygan. Then

I when they come here, when Zippel died, then she married I Moffitt. He was one Oralof the workers there. Well, then, before they died, they movedHistorical up on the river to north of I where Adrian'sBay was. There they finally took the fish by boat out.

I Diane: Where are they buried then, is there a I cemeteryZippel quite close? Carl:Minnesota There's a cemetery, do you know where Wabanica I resort is, beside Wabanica Creek there ... Well, then, there's a road going in and then east along the river

I there, there's where Wabanica graveyard is, that's where I they're buried. (Editor's note: They are buried in Warroad.) I I I 11

I Carl: I get a kick out of some of these news guys, you know, over the radio, they say "wa-bu-nik-a." And then

, I I instead of saying "Po-ta-mo" they say "P~t-ah-mah", (for I Potamo) . Diane: Yes. Well, you can't tell when you're just I reading it off the paper, can you. Carl: But the way they pronounce words now days.

V \J' I Good night! "D~l-~-gr~" (for delegate), "gra-jit" (for \J \I v, graduate) , "maj-is-trit" (for magistrate). It's I Project I Diane: That's true. We kind of take short cuts, don't we? So then, when she moved to Adrian's,Society did the I boys stay there then? History Carl: Well, they bought a lot there. North of

I Adrian's is where they had an ice house. They took the I fish up there later Oralinstead of here because it was too unhandy. See, one time thereHistorical they had to take the I poundboats clearBay up the bay, clear up in here. Then the truck was on shore so they loaded it up and took it to

I Williams and unloaded it at the depot. Depending on the I heightZippel of the water, it got so you couldn't get a boat up. So, that'sMinnesota why they pretty near had to go over to I Wheeler's Point. Diane: Is Adrian's on this map or is it beyond the

I park property? I Gladwin: It'd be north of Baudette, wouldn't it be? Wheeler's? I I I 12

I Carl: Oh, yes. It's, I'd say, 12 miles. Sure, there's a sign on the road there where they've got the KOA.

I Gladwin: I was going to ask, did Mr. Zippel have any I hobbies or anything he'd done besides--any hobbies or things like that? I Carl: No. Diane: There wasn't a whole lot of time for hobbies I back then. I Carl: I'll say it wasn't. It was time for hard work and that was that. When I worked there, ProjectI didn't work too I long, we'd get up in the morning at 6 o'clock. We'd start working out on the lake there and you came Societyin and ate I supper at 9 o'clock. It was no eight hour day. Then History you'd stand and pull that pile driver hammer, a hundred

I pound hammer, three on the rope. You'd pull that and let I it drop on the pilingOral till the piling went down. You had to have everything timed right.Historical The tallest one was I ahead, and thenBay depending on their height, to draw that rope. Well, when they said "whoop", when they said

I "plop", you dropped. If one didn't drop soon enough you'd I getZippel an awful yank in the shoulder. You'd stand out there all day, Minnesotaget wet! I Diane: What kinds of fish did you take then? Carl: When Zippel first moved in, all it was was

I sturgeon and whitefish. There wasn't a in the I lake. Well then, Kenora made some dam in such a way, that, it had a spill-over to begin with, and they can go I I I 13

I up the rapids, like salmon. Well, they came from Lake Winnipeg and migrated and went over the dam into the

I lake. When they grew a little bit and Zippel got them in I the net, he threw them back; he didn't know the value of them till later. All they took the sturgeon for was the I caviar. The roe. They threw the whole works on the shore, piled them up like cord wood and set fire to them.

I Diane: Wherebouts did they do that? I Carl: There were fishermen all around. And there was an island in the lake, Hoss Island. ProjectBilly Hoss bought I all that caviar from all the fishermen for 15 cents, and shipped it over to Germany. They reprocessedSociety it, and it I came back as German caviar forHistory 45 cents. Diane: So that was 15 cents for a pound and 45 cents

I when it came back. I Carl: Yes, and theyOral called it German caviar. Diane: From Minnesota.Historical I Carl: LaterBay on, then they found out the value of the sturgeon. Oh, that is good stuff! You get it smoked or

I pickled--old lady Zippel, she could pickle them so they'd I justZippel melt in your mouth. And the biggest one was 8 1/2 feet I thinkMinnesota it was, weighed 264 pounds. I had a picture I of it, too. I don't know where it is. This time of the year they're going to start to spawn. They go up the

I river in the fall to spawn, the sturgeons. I talked to a I couple guys, I'd like to have the fat. They'd string off the fat and then they'd throw it. You render that like I I I 14

I lard, and it'll come out lean and you pour it in bottles. Then if you get tar on your hands, you know that's hard to

I get off, you just smear a little bit of that and rinse in I warm water and it's off. And it's even good for your hands. I Diane: It wouldn't dry your hands out, I don't suppose.

I Carl: No, it would be about the best thing you could I get for your hands. Diane: That's a small trade for havingProject to work in I that cold water. Got to have some good from it. Carl: Where they (sturgeon) go up the Societyriver, they I can get them there. But, the sturgeon bottom is inside of History I Morris Point where the inside bay goes to Rainy River and Four Mile Bay. That's sturgeon bottom, it's clams. I That's what they feedOral on: clams. Diane: So did Zippel everHistorical start taking walleye at I all or .. ? Bay Carl: Oh yes, later on that's practically all they

I made the money on was the . Then of course, I saugers,Zippel that's a relative of the walleye. But whitefish, I don't knowMinnesota if they had a net out there if they could get I a whitefish now or not. Oh yes, I don't know how they come in, myself, but they had what they called mooneyes or

I goldeyes. They looked like tullibee only they had a I yellow ring around the eyes, that's where it got its name. And they were good smoked. They were bigger than I I I 15

I the tullibee. Over there at Reed's Landing, they should know about the different types of fish, like I say. So

I my statements are verified. I Gladwin: Were any of the workers characters? Unusual people? I Carl: No. 'Course they had whiskey and they drank and that but they never were unruly or anything. I know

I when I got old enough to vote, I was constable. I didn't I have anything to do. When somebody had an argument, I just told them to shut up. There was no Projectcrime or I anything. Everybody minded their own business and they were helpful to one another. Dad and, to beginSociety with, my I two older brothers cut hay with a scythe by hand for about History I 15-20 head of cattle, and they'd do that all summer. And next to where our homestead was, well, you came right by I that steel building onOral the corner, that's our old home place, and a little furtherHistorical down was the log cabin that I burned up later.Bay (Break)

I Carl: How could you find me? I ZippelGladwin: We're over working in the park, working all kinds of Minnesotadifferent places in Minnesota, and we're just I reviewing some history. Carl : You know there was a friend of mine a little

I east of Williams, she said somebody inquired about I somebody, that could tell about the buildings and that fishery. I I I 16

I Diane: Someone else is talking to another guy that lives in town, I can't remember his name. But we are

I talking to a few other people as well. I Carl: Did you talk to Lundsteen? Diane: No. Where does Lundsteen live? I Carl: Lundsteen's have the corner store in Williams. You know there were 750-60 people in Williams I to begin with and now there's only 240. Williams pretty I near all burned up. Well, heck, there was buildings on both sides of the street. There was Lundsteen'sProject store on I the corner, and then there was a little space and there was Idle Hour Hall and there was a barber shopSociety and a real I estate place and a restaurantHistory and a bank was on the corner. And on the south side there was a store in the

I east corner and then there was a restaurant, pool hall and I a garage pretty near Oralto where that big theater is. It was all burnt up. Down in the Historicalearly days when they were I hauling in timber,Bay the timber yard along side the railroad tracks was just jammed full and piled high. If you

I brought in a load, well, wherever you could find a place I toZippel dump, in between buildings even there was so much timber ...Minnesota any place, to put it. I Gladwin: I was going to ask about the old foundations that are left on the Zippel site there. Did

I they cut the stone or where did they get the stone for I these basements, foundations that they had? Did they cut just out of rock, you know, in the area there? I I I 17

I Carl: I don't know what it is now, but the house, the main house pictured there, that's right on a kind of a

I flat rock. The foundation I suppose they had to have a I little build up around, of lime mixture or stuff. But otherwise it was all log, that's a log building but it's I sheeted on the outside with siding. Gladwin: Was there a rock quarry where some of that I came from? I heard someone mention-- I Carl: Oh, when the government made the dike, there's still piles I suppose. Further back hereProject there's, big I flat rocks, goodness, a 1/4 mile in there, big flat ones. They had guys then chop it out, and break themSociety and there's I piles yet that they took down. They had to take it with History horses, I suppose, 'cause years ago there wasn't what

I there is now, you know. And then they had the corduroy I and that's where theyOral put in the dike, and logs and brush and everything. Then they Historicalhad what they called a sand I sucker. I didn'tBay see it myself, but it sucked the sand in, just like you pour water on something. They poured

I the sand in between as they built up. I ZippelDiane: So that big flat rock is south of the park somewhere?Minnesota I Carl: (looking at map) Campgrounds. I don't go to the park. Contact station. Well, back in here is where

I all those big rocks are. They're in the park. If this is I the road, I think you're going to pass through by some of them. I I I 18

I Diane: Along the road up to the boat ramp. We'll have a chance to see that later.

I Carl: I don't know what these are (referring to I areas on map). Maybe that's where the rock are. Diane: That's possible. I Carl: Wait a minute, let's see now. That'd be the rocks then. Because here's rock. The old road that went

I down to what we called Skjie's Rock. Dad and I and my I brother had a contract to build that with a horse and scraper all the way down to the Skjie's Rock.Project But that I road isn't on there now. This is just a boundary of the park. No, there's rocks then, that must beSociety the rocks. I Diane: There's really quite a bit of rock, if all History that is rock.

I Carl: Oh, there's rock! Well, actually, underneath I the whole works, there'sOral rock under here clear around the lake. And, out in the lake Historicalthere's a reef and it's all I connected. SameBay way with Rocky Point. That's all the way out. One time the lake was low and I could walk from one

I rock to the other, one heck of a long ways out. And then I there'sZippel a reef out there and then the one out from Zippel, there's aMinnesota reef, and further east, there's another reef, I don't know what they called it. But it was all solid. Diane: You mentioned that they had dances in the

I twine shed? I Carl: Yes. I I I 19

I Diane: Did people come from quite a distance? How many people came to those?

I Carl: Oh, they came from Wheeler's Point and I Warroad and allover, in sleds in the wintertime and the barn that would hold quite a few teams. That was bigger I than it looks there. That was the good old days and I'm telling you, I wish they were back.

I Diane: Lots more fun than going to the movies or I sitting and watching TV or some of the other things-­ Carl: Oh, can't get anything decent Projecton the radio. I Good night! Diane: I know my dad talks about barn Societydances, too. I My dad is in his 70's and it's really interesting to History listen to him.

I Carl: And later on we built what they call a town I hall. That's just onOral the south side of the (??), where you go down to Zippel Resort.Historical There's where we used to I have dances onBay Saturday. They'd come with the horses from Wheeler's and different places. That building was for

I school board elections and township elections. See each I townshipZippel had their own supervisors and overseers until the county tookMinnesota it over, which was a good thing. So, we had a I clerk and 3 supervisors and we had a justice of the peace and a constable and that was voted on during the

I elections. And school board meetings of course. And I dances. I'm not so good now, but I used to playa little bit. I I I 20

I Gladwin: What did you play? Carl: Violin. When I was working in the casket

I company in Chicago, I cut my hand over here, tore out a I piece as big as my thumb. (inaudible) ... seconds and notes and that. Oh, I had all kinds of instruments. I had an I organ - I traded 10 chickens for an organ one time and the reeds were full of flies and dirt. I took a pocket knife

I and cleaned that up, tuned it up and straightened it. I I had a mandolin, guitar, ukulele. Gladwin: You liked old music then? Project I Carl: Ahh, gimme the old time music. This stuff they've got now days, it's terrible! Society I Gladwin: When they had theseHistory dances, did they have basket socials and things like that?

I Carl: Sure. To begin with, before we got the town I hall built, we had dancesOral in the school house. At Christmas, we'd have a ChristmasHistorical program and basket I socials at differentBay times. We did dance there, that was 26x18 or was it 26x16?

I Gladwin: How far was the school from Zippel's? I ZippelCarl: That was just down here half a mile west of that steelMinnesota building on the corner. Dad donated the ground I for the school house. The teachers they had them days, if they had a high school education, they was good enough to

I teach. And the son of the guy that had Skjie's Rock, he I lived over on Wheeler's Point. And he taught 3 months in the spring and 3 months in the fall .... the middle of the I I I 21

I winter was too hard on him. Now where the bath houses are, the kids had to go all the way to school walking. In

I the shortest day they had a lantern with them. And they I had to light a lantern before they went to school and before they got home. It was that much of a distance. I Diane: That was before they had daylight savings time. Not that that would have made a whole lot of

I difference. I Carl: The graveyard, Dad donated 2 acres for the graveyard. I thought this was him (my brother)Project (referring I to postcard), but it isn't. That was another neighbor. My brother drowned in 1913. He had just builtSociety the hayshed I and went down to the neighbor's. When he said he was History I going to get back in time, he was honest, he was back right on the button. And he didn't come back so they went I looking for him. HereOral he had bought water wings that you blew up and tied on your backHistorical to learn how to swim. They I had to go andBay get another boat, the boat was floating out there. And there he was all tied in a knot, he got

I cramps. Then there was a stick that punctured that (the I waterZippel wings) and let all the air out. Well then, of course, thereMinnesota was no place to bury him or anything, so Dad I donated that graveyard over here. Gladwin: How many more settlers were there in the

I park then, approximately 4 or 5 families? I Carl: Well, let me see, they were scattered different places. Where the park buildings are, there was I I I 22

I Max Coulard. Further east on the other road, that was Geiss. It was Hans Stromstedt and Billy Zippel, he had a

I homestead. It was Gustner's, Strickler's, Morehead, and, I well, there was 2 Geiss's. Engbroten's, they lived on that bay, and farther this way was Andrew Peterson's and I then of course, there was old man Skjie. And east of Skjie's, there was a sort of a homestead there but I can't

I remember their names. I Diane: There were quite a few people then. Gladwin: Yeah, there was. Project I (Carl felt dizzy, talked about health, heart medications, mostly inaudible.) Society I Gladwin: I was going to ask, did they have a lot of History I horses at the Zippel Camp then? Carl: Oh, horses, yes. Practically, everybody had I horses, teams to get Oralanywhere. Gladwin: Did they haveHistorical a large number of teams? I Carl: Now,Bay that I don't remember. I think probably they had about three teams. Oh, yes, and this Gustner

I that lived up along the lake here where the park buildings I are,Zippel where the bath houses are, he had a horse and a cow and he hitchedMinnesota those both up and went with a sleigh or a I small wagon, to Williams. Hooked them both up. Diane: That must've been a cute team.

I (additional discussion of heart problems) I Gladwin: Did the Zippels have a lot of cattle? Carl: No, no. I I I 23

I Gladwin: They bought their ... ? Carl: Yes, they bought 7-800 pounds of flour,

I hundred pounds of sugar and ... 25 cans full of lard ... I You know in the early days when the folks moved in there wasn't a deer in the country, not even south of Williams I in the Game Refuge. Moose, moose, moose, allover. No deer. But you could look out any time and see a moose. I 'Cause they're stupid animals. I Gladwin: I was going t9 say, how big were the boats they had? Project I Carl: Ah, we had what they call a 25 (foot) pound boat, ... (inaudible) ... they had inboard motors.Society I Gladwin: Big gasoline motors. History I Carl: Yes, and they'd go lug, lug, lug, lug. Yes. To begin with, when my Dad moved in, there was no way of I getting anywhere for Oralcommodities, so he took a sailboat. He sailed down the bay and Historicalsometimes to Warroad and I sometimes allBay the way up the river. And there were only two stop-off places: where the KOA (campground) is there

I was a person there by the name of Ole Johnson. That was a I stopZippel off place. Then, on the other end, there on Long Point, thatMinnesota was Nybergs, the second stop off place. I Gladwin: How many boats did they have at Zippel's, just one or so?

I Carl: Well, I suppose they had a couple ... there were I some rowboats ... I I I 24

I Gladwin: How far out on the lake would they go setting their nets?

I Carl: Well, that varied from a quarter of a mile to I a half of a mile. The law was they had to start 5 feet in the water with the lead out. Well, then we'd go out and I find the drop-off. And there, past the drop-off, we'd put the pound nets. That was the single ones. Well, in a

I couple cases, we had what they call a double pounds I They'd go another lead out with the one net, until they got another drop-off. Where the drop-offProject is, that's where I the fish was. Diane: How many fish did you catch? Society I Carl: Oh, gosh, we'd get sometimes 20-25 boxes. History I (Editor's note: That was after a storm when they would get an "extra lift" (more fish). When they couldn't go I out for two or three Oraldays they'd have more fish in the nets. They averaged 14 (likelyHistorical 100 pound) boxes of fish I a day.) Bay Diane: How big were the boxes?

I Carl: First they had ISO-pound boxes, they were I big.Zippel Then they got down to 100-pound boxes. That's, 100 pounds worthMinnesota of ice. So then they cut them down to 50 I pounds. Made it a little easier to handle. Yeah, the last sturgeon they got, I was there, it was 47 pounds with

I the head on and the eggs out and they got a dollar a pound I for the meat, it was 10 pounds of caviar and they got 6 bucks a pound for the caviar. So you see what that one I I I 25 I fish brought. Then of course, the price sometimes would vary 50 cents up to 75 cents a pound (inaudible). The I lake was just loaded. In the wintertime they'd take gill nets out, and chop a big hole and then they had the 4-inch

I boards we'd nail together like that a hundred feet, and I slide that underneath the ice. And then, when they got so far and we had to cut a little hole and if it wasn't lined I up we had to hook through to find it, and push it, sometimes a quarter mile of gill net. Then, when we got I that done, we'd cut a hole to pull the boatProject out. On the I end of the boat was a rope, and then we'd pull the gill net up. The same for lifting, we'd loosen Societythat, about a 6 I foot square hole. Then we'd stand there in the wintertime even, that was cold, with woolHistory mitts and squeeze the fish

I out of the nets. Oh, that was cold. And that we had to I do oh, every 3-4 days.Oral (inaudible) Gladwin: Did they makeHistorical any money doing that, did I they have a lotBay of money when they got done with the fisheries?

I Carl: Well, towards the last they didn't, they just I madeZippel a little. Things wasn't so good. Just made a little, that'sMinnesota all. I Gladwin: Was the population of fish dropping down, was that one of the reasons they weren't as many? I Carl: Oh, no ... It was just, well, I don't know how to put it, the environment around wasn't the same like I

I said. (inaudible) I I I 26

~ I' Gladwin: The lakeshore was changing? Carl: Oh, the lakeshore was changed terrible.

I Where the old channel was, there was land out, for I goodness sakes, farther than from here to the barn. And brush and everything growing. But then, I don't remember I what year it was, but Kenora made the dam 5 feet higher than the old one. And they changed it. Instead of having

I spillovers, the wheels are this way, underneath. There's I 15 of them. Gladwin: A turbine? Project • I Carl: Yes, a turbine. I haven't been over there, but they don't allow anybody to see them either.Society I (inaudible) It's pretty well Historywatched. And Kenora got its I name from three different places: Keewatin, Norman Dam, and Rat Portage ... Ke-no-ra ... from the first two I letters of the three Oraldifferent places. That's where it got its name. And there wasHistorical a feldspar mill, feldspar up I there, too. BayThat's the stuff they grind up and put in old tires years ago. And there was place up there, I was told

I that they found a little gold. That was Gold Horn Mines. I ThatZippel was up in on the other side. But I guess there wasn'tMinnesota any. I read in the paper not long ago that I there was a place that they were going to pan for gold.

Gladwin: There was no min~rals ever found inside the

I park or anyplace near here? Any minerals found or mined? I Carl: No, no. And blueberries years ago! Oh, boy. You know they had so many, 20 men, working for them. I I I 27

I They'd have whiskey bottles. They wouldn't get drunk because they'd just have a little snort. They'd just

I throw the bottles. Mother picked up every time, she would I pick up the bottles. She canned 300 quarts of blueberries in whiskey bottles. Had to shake them down in a funnel. I Then when you wanted to put them in a dish you had to shake them out like catsup.

I Gladwin: Were they just plain bottles or did they I have ... ? Carl: Yeah, just plain bottles. See,Project they didn't I have Mason jars in those days. And when the first Mason jars came, they had a wire that looped overSociety and another I one, and you put the cap on that rubber ring, and then you History twisted it down. That was the old timer.

I Diane: That was a glass cap? I Carl: Yes. Oral Diane: So when did youHistorical work with Zippel? What years? I Carl: I wasBay around 20 years (old). 22 years, 3 times.

I Diane: Three different times? I ZippelCarl: Yes. Sometimes in the summertime I had to get let off soMinnesota I could help put up hay. I Gladwin: How old were you when you first started working? 20 years old?

I Carl: Yes. I Gladwin: What year were you born, then? Carl: 1908. I I I 28

I Gladwin: So you started working at the fishery in about 1928?

I Carl: Yes. I Gladwin: When did it finally come to an end, the fishery? I Carl: Gee, I don't remember the year, it was quite a few years ago.

I Gladwin: Was it before the big war or after the big I war? Carl: It was after the First World WarProject ... and before I the Second ~orld War. Gladwin: Probably sometime in the '30sSociety then? I Carl: Let's see ... yes, I think so. In the '30s. History I Diane: What happened to the boys? Did they move on, then? What happened then to the people who were there at I that time? The ZippelOral boys--?? Carl: Well, Zippel's boys,Historical he (Billy) was fishing I over from Wheeler'sBay Point, out. There's where he was doing the fishing. And the other guy (Art), he was more

I or less on his own on this end here just a little after I theZippel old man died. I don't know if they're up in the cemetery Minnesotaor not. 'Cause when you go to Wheeler's Point, I you go straight on number 8 and then you come to a road where it goes round a little corner there. Well, you go

I across that road and Billy Zippel's boys have got cabins. I I don't know if they're there now or not. I know they stopped in here oh, about 5 years ago. They knew who I B I I 29

I was, you know, and they stopped to say hello. Of course I didn't know the kid. They were born up at the other end.

I (inaudible). I Diane: So Billy, then, was the boy that went up to Wheeler's Point? I Carl: Well, to begin with, he had a homestead, there, on the edge of the corduroy, (Billy Zippel) of

I course, he moved up there quite a few years later. I (Break) Diane: And they had a daughter as well?Project I Carl: Yes. And if I'm not mistaken, she married a Marschalk, Lillian Marschalk. And they livedSociety south around I the shore, where Long Point is, there's where old man History Marschalk had his homestead. Well, that's where Sandy

I Shores, there's a resort or cabins there now. I Diane: Okay, I knowOral it didn't get on the other tape because it had stopped, so Historicaljust for the record, I'd like I to repeat: OldBay man Zippel's name was Wilhelm. Carl: Yes.

I Diane: And his wife was Jane? I ZippelCarl: Yes. Diane:Minnesota And then the boys names were Billy and ... ? I Carl: And Arthur. Diane: And then a daughter, Lillian.

I Carl: You know, I could mention every homesteader I from here to Williams right now if I wanted to. And where they lived. Oh, there was a lot of places where they I I I 30

I dealt on this here quit-claim deed business. Well, they couldn't make a living, you know, a lot of them settling

I on, like a sand region. They couldn't make a living on I sand. And swamp and water! They said one time my Dad and my brother walked to Williams straight across through a I swamp. They had to carry stuff on their back and if they fell down, they'd have everything wet. Walk in muskeg you

I know? That was before the ditches got made. And the main I bay where you cross, where the graveyard is, before they dug the ditches, you could swing-- with bigProject trees 50 foot I up through the tops, on a rope swing. You could swing across that bay, there, and see fish swimming--Societyit was I just as clear as a crystal. Well then, when the dredges History I got all those ditches dug, with the floating dredges, when they were through and got everything out, then they blew I the dam and all that Oralthere muck filled in, and its only a little channel. Historical I Gladwin: BayOh, into the bay. Carl: Yes.

I Gladwin: So the dredging caused the bay to fill up? I ZippelCarl: Yes. It was all that silt. It came with such a force, Minnesotayou know. Oh boy, it was a beautiful place. I Clear as a crystal. Gladwin: Did the water just kind of filter through

I the marshes to get to the bay, then? I Carl: Yes. I I I 31

I Gladwin: There's really no river coming in there, then?

I Carl: No, no. Well, there were small creeks. But, I like from the graveyard and that, there's where it started to get a little bit bigger, you know. I know one time, I there, straight south of here on the road, where you see all those buildings where you turned in here, west of

I there, clear back in the swamp, it was about 3 feet deep I and about this wide, a creek came across. But now that's all filled up. Project I Gladwin: Was there a lot of fish in the bay, then? Carl: Oh, yes, bullhead and perch ... Bullhead'sSociety my I first favorite fish in the spring. They're good. They're History I a beef fish, more or less. Diane: So were there ever any more buildings there I than what you've drawnOral out? Carl: No. Historical I Diane: That'sBay all that was ever there. Carl: Let me see ... Right back in here, Art Zippel

I built the house, one time. And, when you go out to I Baudette,Zippel or on that road, you'll see a place past Randall'sMinnesota where there's a bunch of shacks and there's an I old house with, what do you call them, with full corners? That's the one that stood there. And I ate more than one

I meal in that house. It's up on blocks, I guess, yet. I Gladwin: Well, they moved it out-- I I I 32

I Carl: Yeah. They moved it down in the bay and then up Graceton Road, I guess. Because they couldn't take it

I through the woods. I Diane: When did they move it? Carl: Oh, that must be about 6 years ago. I Diane: Pretty recently. Carl: The guy that lived on Graceton Road that goes

I there, the first buildings, he bought it and then he sold I it to this guy that's got it alongside the highway there. Gladwin: Must have been purchased afterProject the park was I formed, then? Must have been taken out after the park was made? Society I Carl: Yes. I guess the park had something to do History I with removing it or something. Diane: So now, I'm confused as to exactly where we I are. Where do you live?Oral You're down off this paper completely and then off overHistorical this way. This is the park I boundary, here.Bay Carl: Yeah, I'm right here, somewheres.

I Diane: Just a little off the paper. I ZippelCarl: Yes. What's that, feet? (referring to map scale). MinnesotaIt's so small I can't see. I Diane: Yes. Scale in feet. So that's a little more than a half a mile.

I Carl: Let's see, 2000 ... closer to 25-hundred. I Diane: Yeah, it's 25.

I...· ..,.i. Ii I I 33

I Carl: Here's the main road, here's where you come in. There's a 40 there north of me and here's the 40 I am

I and here, I'm just about here. I Diane: Okay. Carl: You came up here like that. I Diane: Now you talked about a steel building on the corner?

I Carl: Yeah, that was my old homestead. Dad's I homestead. Where you come in and you see that big steel building down there. Project I Carl: Oh, let me see. Private land ... It's over here some place. I can soon draw that. See,Society 40, 40 ... I I think the road comes just here. That steel building is History I right on the corner here. Yeah, it would be ... 'cause they haven't got the road here, they just got the boundary. I This 80 goes north andOral south, and 80 that's along a road where it turns into the park,Historical that was my brother's. And I when they resettledBay them out in Forestry then he sold the 80 to this one fellow. And different ones sold different

I parts to him. I ZippelDiane: So how long have you lived here? Carl:Minnesota I started to build the house in 1941. And I I finished in '42 and moved up here. 'Cause we sold the home place. 160 (acres) That's where the steel building

I sets. We had 13 40s at one time. The reason for that is,

where you go into them steel buildings on the north side,

there's where my brother that drowned had a 40 that he

I I 34

I homesteaded on. That made the extra forty. And then the 160 that Dad bought for the hay, openings for the hay.

I With my brother's 160, that was 13 40s. That was 13 too I many. Diane: So all the people then that lived in the park I area, most all of their efforts were based on fishing, then?

I Carl: Yes. And on woods work. Oh, years ago, good I night! Posts, 7-foot posts were a cent and half apiece and eights (a-foot posts were) 3 cents. ProjectAnd when they got I up to 5 and 7 cents they thought they were making money, and they did. Because everything was cheap.Society Now, I think I they're a dollar apiece. Ah, things is changed so ... History I Gladwin: I don't know if we can think of any more. Can you, Diane? I Diane: No, I'm kindOral of running out of thoughts at the moment. I'm kind of runningHistorical out of questions to ask I you. Bay Gladwin: I was going to ask one more thing before we

I do quit. Do you know of anyone who has any pictures of I theZippel old fish processing plant at all or ... ? Carl:Minnesota No. I Gladwin: Nobody has any that you know of? Carl: No, no I don't. Unless Esther Lindquist in

I Williams has. I Diane: Okay, you mentioned her before. I 35

I Carl: They came and homesteaded in, 1909. Dad come in 1904. Yes, he came from Red Lake in a covered wagon in

I 1904 off to Malung and Roseau, and Warroad and followed I the high ridges in to Williams and then ... he. Did you come by the range land where you went by that bunch of I silos on the road, or maybe you come straight from Warroad?

I Gladwin: We came straight on highway 11 from Warroad I to Williams, then we went north. Carl: Oh, yes. Where those silos are,Project he went I northwest there on the high buildings and then straight down. Took him three weeks. They gave himSociety 15 bucks. And I if he'd have had 15 bucks more he'd have turned around and History I went back. And bull dogs so bad, oh, gee, all the way up from Red Lake. Blood was just running down the cows' I hairs. Oral Diane: What was that from?Historical I Carl: BullBay dogs, it's a fly. Diane: I'm not familiar with that name, bulldogs,

I for ... Sounds like it's a good name for them, though. I ZippelCarl: It is a good name. When you magnify their beak, it'sMinnesota just like a keyhole saw. Oh, mosquitoes. I I remember years ago when we were haying, the mosquitoes were so bad. Dad was helping us then, with timothy, it

I was rank. We had 2 on a bunch because timothy, when they I get together, you know, it's heck. We had all veils and horseblankets and everything. When you first started to !

i .. I~ I 36

I put the fork in that hay, you didn't see no hay. They were that thick and that sounds terrible, but it's the

I truth. Gosh! Of course, later, they got this chemical I stuff and that. But it still, this spring was bad on me with mosquitoes. I know, where I had my garden I got a I'.' little water pit there, and that's where they hatch. I should've squirted a little oil on top. That doesn't hurt

I anything, but it'll keep them from hatching. I (discussion on garden, following which we walked to the garden and then out to the road) Project I Society I History I Oral ,I Historical • Bay I I Zippel , Minnesota ~

'~.•. ~ I I 37

3 Notes from second interview with Carl Grovom on May 5, 1987:

Carl worked in the cities for a few years - in the laundry

of a resthome. He also worked at a casket factory in

Chicago.

Carl has taken care of a number of ill people--

his dad had a stroke, then died.

I his mom had high blood pressure for a few years and

he did housework. Later, she died of "quick

cancer" after just 3 months. Project

his brother had a heart attack and died later. Carl's sister, age 82, lives in suburb of Detroit,Society Michigan. History Harold Bruber used to live right next to Carli he was a

bookkeeper/elevator operator. Carl gets mail in neighbor'sOral mailbox. Blueberries were expensive Historicalthis year - a couple picked and sold $500Bay worth this year. County bought Carl out for the gravel, but he can live

I here as long as he wants. I NickoliZippel Skjie was Old Man Skjie's son. Hans RoslandMinnesota near Skjie in picture. The twine house or the bunkhouse was used as a post office

at one time. Not the house. Vic Jacobs' was the

post office after Zippel. I Annie Grovum Berger was droop lid. Carl's dad went places but mostly left mom home. I 38

I Mortise Marschalk was Paul's dad. Carol Ebert was a relative also.

I Johnny Grovum shot his hand off as a kid - moved to I Alberta,Canada. Alma Starren was Johnny Palm's aunt, Gust Starren's sister. I Bemidji was the county seat before the county was divided. Warroad, and maybe Baudette too, were

I county substations. I One of Zippel's barns, after it was torn down, they spread the manure and it becameProject the garden. I There were settlers all along the lakeshore. Carl's relatives-- Society I Father-- George (died 3/26/27) History I Mother-- Brother--Ottis, Severt (died 8/3/1913), Johnny, I another thatOral died at 18 months. Sister-- (did not get Historicalname) ·~ ~ I They alsoBay took care of his mother's sister's boy. , The family lived in Red Lake for 7 years before coming to II this area. An 18 month old son died there.

;m Family lived in South Dakota 13 years. I Zippel LivedMinnesota in Black Earth, North Dakota (NW of Madison) I before that - parents married there. I Their (folks? - his dad's ?) came from Norway via sailboat I and liner. I Carl was born 4 years after family came to Zippel area. D 39

I Skjie is the name of the man who owned the property known as Skjie's Rock. The spelling varies as follows:

I Skjui or Skjeie (1904 intent to homestead lands, I records at Beltrami County Recorder's Office) Skjie (Williams Northern Light, August 31, 1916) I I I Project I Society I History I'~ Oral I Historical I Bay I I Zippel Minnesota I I I '1:..ke." -h-e~ MA.t ~-d~ b,\ ~~\ G,1"()\)Ot4\

I I I I Project I Society I History I Oral I Historical I Bay I I Zippel Minnesota I I I E I