Official Hansard No

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard No. 4, 2004 WEDNESDAY, 24 MARCH 2004

FORTIETH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—SEVENTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE

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CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 24 MARCH

Parliamentary Library...... 21755 Business— Consideration of Legislation ...... 21756 Consideration of Legislation ...... 21764 Rearrangement...... 21765 Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 and Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004— Second Reading...... 21765 Matters of Public Interest— Small Business: Trade Practices Act ...... 21793 Australian Broadcasting Corporation: Sports Coverage...... 21796 Economy: Fiscal Policy...... 21798 Immigration: Refugees ...... 21798 Western Australia: Labor Government ...... 21801 Spain: Terrorist Attacks ...... 21805 Questions Without Notice— National Security: Terrorism ...... 21808 Economy: Policy ...... 21809 Defence: Equipment ...... 21810 Health: Tough on Drugs Strategy ...... 21812 Defence: Defence Capability Plan...... 21813 Taxation: Public Benevolent Institution Status...... 21814 Taxation: Deductible Gift Recipient Status ...... 21816 Environment: Renewable Energy...... 21817 Howard Government: Advertising ...... 21818 Health and Ageing: Policy...... 21819 Trade: Banana Imports ...... 21821 Questions Without Notice: Additional Answers— Defence: Equipment ...... 21823 Environment: Threatened Ecosystems ...... 21823 Answers to Questions on Notice— Question No. 2453...... 21823 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Taxation: Deductible Gift Recipient Status ...... 21824 Taxation: Public Benevolent Institution Status...... 21829 Petitions— Education: Higher Education ...... 21831 Education: Higher Education ...... 21831 Notices— Presentation ...... 21831 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report...... 21835 Notices— Postponement ...... 21837 Committees— Privileges Committee—Reference ...... 21837 Superannuation: Temporary Residents ...... 21837 National Security: Terrorism...... 21837

CONTENTS—continued

Committees— Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts Legislation Committee—Extension of Time...... 21837 National Security: Terrorism...... 21838 Education: Higher Education...... 21838 Johnson, Ms Benita...... 21838 Education: Higher Education...... 21838 Education: Higher Education...... 21839 Sheikh Ahmed Yassin— Suspension of Standing Orders...... 21840 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Reports...... 21846 Community Affairs Legislation Committee—Report...... 21848 Truth in Food Labelling Bill 2003— Report of Community Affairs Legislation Committee ...... 21848 Committees— Australian Crime Commission Committee—Report...... 21849 Corporations and Financial Services Committee—Report...... 21851 Documents— Auditor-General’s Reports—Report No. 35 of 2003-04 ...... 21854 Parliamentary Zone— Proposal for Works ...... 21854 Superannuation: Temporary Residents— Return to Order...... 21854 Committees— Membership...... 21856 Dairy Produce Amendment Bill 2003— First Reading ...... 21857 Second Reading...... 21857 Higher Education Legislation Amendment Bill 2004— First Reading ...... 21858 Second Reading...... 21859 Assent ...... 21860 Corporations Amendment Regulations 2003 (No. 8)— Motion for Disallowance...... 21860 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Reports ...... 21872 Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 and Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004— In Committee...... 21872 Adjournment— Education: Boys ...... 21877 Health: Hepatitis C ...... 21879 Trade: Free Trade Agreement ...... 21881 Heiner Affair and Lindeberg Grievance ...... 21883 Dyson, Mr Will...... 21885 Documents— Tabling...... 21886 Tabling...... 21886 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 21886

CONTENTS—continued

Questions on Notice— Attorney-General’s: Paper and Paper Products—(Question Nos 2250 and 2260) ...... 21887 Australian Broadcasting Corporation: Redundancies—(Question No. 2403)...... 21888 Shipping: Oil Discharges—(Question No. 2524)...... 21888 Environment: Protected Marine Areas—(Question No. 2592)...... 21889 Australian Customs Service: Counter Terrorism Section—(Question No. 2637) ...... 21889 Australian Customs Service: Bay Class Vessels—(Question No. 2642)...... 21890 Australian Customs Service: Bay Class Vessels—(Question No. 2643)...... 21891 Australian Customs Service: Counter Terrorism Section—(Question No. 2649) ...... 21892

Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21755

Wednesday, 24 March 2004 tions and Staffing, and the resolutions passed ————— by the Senate and in the other place, proposed that the Parliamentary Librarian The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. should be a statutory position with direct Paul Calvert) took the chair at 9.30 a.m. and reporting lines to the Presiding Officers and read prayers. the library committees. PARLIAMENTARY LIBRARY The Speaker and I propose that the act be The PRESIDENT (9.31 a.m.)—I wish to amended to create a statutory position of make a statement regarding the Parliamen- Parliamentary Librarian, set out the functions tary Library and the position of Parliamen- of the Parliamentary Librarian and require tary Librarian. The 2002 report on aspects of those functions to be performed, among the administration of the parliament by the other things, in an impartial and confidential Parliamentary Service Commissioner, Mr manner and on the basis of equality of access Andrew Podger, and the Senate resolution in for all senators and members. August 2003 establishing the Department of The Speaker and I believe that it is impor- Parliamentary Services both included important to specify the core functions of the Par- tant elements intended to protect the inde- liamentary Librarian in the act. pendence of the Parliamentary Library. Another element of protecting the li- The Speaker and I have consulted the joint brary’s independence is that the bill will re- Library Committee on proposals to give ef- quire the Parliamentary Librarian to have fect to the parliament’s wish to protect that professional qualifications in librarianship or independence, and we have reached agree- information management and professional ment on a package of proposals that I believe membership of a recognised professional will guarantee that independence for the fu- association in such a discipline. ture. The bill will contain provisions relating to The package consists of proposals for a the statutory appointment that largely mirror more formal establishment of the joint Li- those covering the Secretary to the Depart- brary Committee, drafting instructions for ment of Parliamentary Services, including amendments of the Parliamentary Service that an appointment may only be terminated Act 1999, and a duty statement and selection by the Presiding Officers after receiving a criteria for the position of Parliamentary Li- report from the Parliamentary Service Com- brarian, to be created as a statutory office. missioner. The proposal to establish the Library As proposed in the parliamentary resolu- Committee on a more formal basis arises tions, there will be a significant role for the from the parliamentary resolution establish- Library Committee in advising the Presiding ing the DPS and will be the subject of further Officers on the annual resource agreement consultation with senators and members. I between the Parliamentary Librarian and the will write to party leaders and Independent Secretary to the DPS. As well, the Parlia- and minor party senators about that. mentary Librarian will formally report to the The Parliamentary Service Commis- Library Committee at least once a year. sioner’s report proposed that the Parliamen- The duty statement and selection criteria tary Librarian have a senior position in the reflect the proposed provisions relating to the Department of Parliamentary Services. The functions of the Parliamentary Librarian and Senate Standing Committee on Appropria- the qualifications required.

CHAMBER 21756 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

When a draft bill is available, the Speaker senting Timor Leste’s position here in Aus- and I will consult further with party leaders tralia. and Independents. At that stage, provided The truncated nature of this process, there is no objection, preliminary recruitment whereby we effectively drop standing order action will begin, although of course an ap- 111, which is meant to facilitate senators to pointment to the statutory position of Par- do exactly those things, is wrong. I have yet liamentary Librarian will have to await pas- to hear from the government why this matter sage of the bill. is so urgent that we must ignore the cut-off— I thank the Senate. that we must ignore the parliamentary norm BUSINESS that there be time for consultation. As I said, this legislation will have ramifications for Consideration of Legislation decades. It involves the theft from East Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Timor of its gas and oil resources by the Australia—Manager of Government Busi- Australian government, with the involvement ness in the Senate) (9.34 a.m.)—I move: of the oil companies. Billions of dollars are That the provisions of paragraphs (5), (6) and involved here. It is a matter that concerns the (8) of standing order 111 not apply to the follow- major resource for the funding of the future ing bills, allowing them to be considered during welfare of the poorest neighbour in our re- this period of sittings: gion, namely Timor Leste. We should be giv- Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agreement ing this maximum consideration. Implementation Bill 2004 On Monday night there was a committee Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater hearing with two witnesses: the conjoint de- Sunrise) Bill 2004. partmental representatives representing the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.34 Australian government and one very present- a.m.)—The Greens oppose the motion. able—but nevertheless one only—non- Government senators interjecting— government organisation from Australia do- Senator BROWN—No, it is not a suring the best it could to represent the alterna- prise, as one of the government senators tive point of view. That is manifestly inade- points out. There is no urgency with this leg- quate. We are not proceeding with this legis- islation—in fact, quite the reverse. It is so lation on the basis of information that is ap- important and it will have ramifications for propriate to its importance. If ever there was so many years to come for the relationship a need for us to observe the rules of the Sen- between Australia and Timor Leste that we ate—in particular standing order 111— should be giving maximum consideration to which provide that there should be some this legislation. That means that we should time between the introduction of a piece of have the opportunity to, in the fullest sense, legislation and the Senate’s consideration in understand Timor Leste’s position on this. voting on that legislation, this is it. So, no, We should be able to communicate with the Greens do not accept that this bill should government, parliamentary and community be exempted from standing order 111. Stand- representatives of our small and very impov- ing order 111 is precisely there to ensure and erished neighbour, as well as with commu- to cater for the adequate informing of the nity groups—including, of course, the oil Senate before it proceeds on complex pieces companies involved, such as Woodside—in of legislation like this one, which does have particular those community groups repre- major ramifications for our relationship with not just East Timor but also the neighbour-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21757 hood. We object. We do not accept that there motion this morning and there is an expecta- should be a cut-off here. tion that we will now debate this legislation. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- This legislation is complex. It is not only tralia) (9.38 a.m.)—The Democrats also op- about issues of great wealth; it is about inter- pose the motion before us today to exempt national jurisdictional issues and maritime the Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agreement boundaries. These are complex issues and Implementation Bill 2004 and the Customs they deserve more time for debate both in Tariff Amendment (Greater Sunrise) Bill this chamber and through the committee 2004 from the cut-off, for many of the rea- process. I record my disappointment at the sons outlined by the previous speaker. The way this process has been conducted and way this legislation has come to this parlia- acknowledge that many in the community ment has been an abuse of process. The way have also put on record their concerns about this legislation has arrived in the parliament the process. Many community groups would has been absolutely outrageous. As honour- have been interested in providing informa- able senators would be aware, it was ex- tion to the Senate deliberations and they feel pected to be debated almost within hours of that they have not had an adequate time or being introduced in this place. I think we had opportunity to do so. the legislation for about three hours, and I acknowledge that these bills relate to re- some of us not even that. I acknowledge the sources that are desperately needed by the government’s apology for failing to give the people of Timor Leste. I do not think any of Democrats the bill but giving it to the Labor us can afford to forget that Timor Leste is a Party and the Greens. I take on board that fledging nation, one of the poorest in the apology from Senator Abetz. Within three region and of course an important new hours of that legislation being provided to neighbour. Why are we treating the govern- senators, there was an expectation that it be ment and the people of that new nation in debated. such a way? The Democrats accept, very More importantly, in relation to the so- much so, that it is desirable for both govern- called urgency there is actually no compel- ments to come to an arrangement that pro- ling reason why this legislation should be vides legal and fiscal certainty not only for debated in such haste, no compelling reason governments but, indeed, for those corpora- for it to be exempt from the cut-off, no com- tions that are involved in this process. But pelling reason for it to have been dealt with we do not accept that as a reason for rushing in this way and no compelling reason for the these bills through the parliament in a man- committee process to have happened with ner which we believe has compromised the the alacrity that it did on Monday night. The proper scrutiny of the legislation. There is no report was tabled, as senators would know, specific commercial deadline for the ratifica- after 6.30 last night, giving some of us the tion of the agreement in the way there was a opportunity to write our supplementary and specific date for the ratification of the Timor dissenting reports in a very short period of Sea treaty. Yet one of the effects of rushing time. Through you, Madam Acting Deputy these bills through the parliament is that it President Knowles, that is with all due re- has severely limited the possibilities for con- spect to the secretariat, who handled that sultation and debate. process with great aplomb. A committee re- I am glad that the Senate Standing Com- port was tabled last night, there is a cut-off mittee on Economics had the opportunity to

CHAMBER 21758 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 look at the bills, albeit briefly. I do believe will move an amendment to this legislation the bills would have been greater served by to try and ensure not only that Australia gets consideration over a longer period of time. I a good deal but also that we do not rip off note that the Timor Sea Justice Campaign one of the poorest nations on earth—a nation indicated to the committee that they were that we have had positive dealings with, par- aware of a number of organisations, includ- ticularly in recent times, dealings of which ing large NGOs, that were considering mak- we can be proud and this government can be ing submissions but that, due to the ex- proud. This process is not one that makes me tremely short time frame and limited nature proud. I am sorry that we will be debating of the invitation to give submissions, were this legislation with such haste. deterred from doing so. I want to record their Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (9.45 view—and they argued this in their submis- a.m.)—I also rise to speak to the cut-off mo- sion—that the small number of submissions tion. In doing so, I want to raise some real should not be interpreted as a lack of interest concerns from One Nation in relation to what in this particular issue. In fact, on the con- I believe is not only undue but also trary, I think there is a growing interest. Cer- inappropriate haste. If we want to start tainly they indicated that there is a growing anywhere, all we need to do is look at the interest across various sectors of Australian document I have in my hand which is society regarding Australia’s relationship provided by Woodside. If you look at the with Timor Leste and the Timor Sea negotia- diagram at the back of this document—and I tions. will seek leave during the debate to table this The Democrats want to record today our document—you will see that it clearly shows deep regret at the way this legislation has that the entire Sunrise field is well and truly been rushed through. Not in the committee in the Timor half of the sea. So this is step process nor even today as we deal with this one: we should not interfere in a natural exemption from the cut-off have we been resource of Timor. But the situation gets given any compelling reasons or shown much worse when we look at the way in compelling evidence to support the sugges- which the current boundary between tion that Australia or Timor Leste would lose Australia and East Timor was set. It was set any revenue if ratification were prolonged with undue haste, it was set in a period when even for a few weeks let alone a few days. there was considerable turmoil in East Timor There is no evidence to suggest that Australia and it was set under less than satisfactory or Timor Leste would lose out. That we circumstances. I also have an article from the could not even take a few extra hours is an Australian Financial Review of Friday, absolute indictment on the parliament. It is 5 March this year. The heading is ‘Bribery particularly disappointing that the Econom- case rocks Timor Treaty’. The article says: ics Legislation Committee was deprived of A $US30 billion lawsuit accuses major politicians the opportunity to hear additional evidence of bribery and questions the validity of the Timor which I think may have assisted its assess- Sea Treaty ... ment of this legislation and consequently the So not only do we appear to be placing Aus- Senate’s consideration of these bills. tralian jurisdiction over a resource that, un- For these and many other reasons the De- der international law, is well and truly within mocrats today strongly oppose the exemption the confines of East Timor; there is also, in from the cut-off. As we can read the numbers this situation, a clear possibility of bribery in this chamber, this debate will come on. I being used to obtain what has been set as the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21759 boundary at the moment. If we look at a case happen in this regard without parallel action that has come out of the District of Columbia from the legislature of Timor Leste. I would in the United States, we see a very clear indi- not want to have the finger pointed at me or cation of where international law has set my party if we did not deal with this legisla- boundaries—that is, halfway between the tion or have it said that we were responsible actual countries. This is very clear. I have in for delaying or preventing a development my hand a complete transcript of that case. If which will have significant economic bene- we want an example of where the boundary fits for that fledgling nation. should be, this case will give it very clearly The opposition will be supporting the mo- and very succinctly. We should not be inter- tion to exempt this bill from the cut-off, be- fering in a natural resource of East Timor. cause there is no prejudice in dealing with One Nation will oppose the cut-off. the debate now. The issues about the treaty Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (9.49 were dealt with by the Joint Standing Com- a.m.)—I have to say that Senator Harris did mittee on Treaties quite some time ago. If not let the facts get in the way of a good people want to run their case again before story with his contribution then. The fact of the Senate, I think we have to call a halt to the matter is that the legislation before the that and say, ‘You’ve had an opportunity to Senate, it has been established by the Eco- present your case’—and indeed they have. nomics Legislation Committee’s inquiry, The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties reflects the agreement between the govern- has made recommendations. The government ments of Timor Leste and Australia. That has taken quite some time to act on them. was a very appropriate purpose of the Sen- The legislation we are considering to be ex- ate’s inquiry. Of course, Senator Brown and empted from the cut-off is in line with the Senator Stott Despoja did not mention that treaty; we have established that. We should the treaty itself was the subject of examina- get on with it and deal with it. And if the tion by the Joint Standing Committee on government of Timor Leste do not wish to Treaties. I believe that committee reported at proceed, it will be in their hands. the end of 2002. So this legislation, we have Senator LEES (South Australia) (9.52 established, follows a treaty entered into be- a.m.)—I also want to speak against our rush- tween the two nations. The legislation that is ing the Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agree- before the Senate accurately reflects that ment Implementation Bill 2004 and related treaty. So it is not as if this has been rushed bill through this place, and I will be voting through the parliament at all, because the against the motion to exempt these bills from question of the treaty has been the subject of the cut-off. The facts of the matter are that a proper inquiry by the Joint Standing Com- we do not need to rush today. Very late last mittee on Treaties, which was concluded night I was able to obtain a copy of the Sen- over a year ago. ate Economics Legislation Committee’s re- If anyone has dragged their heels in this port, and I understand that because of print- matter, it is the government getting this legis- ing problems other senators still do not have lation here—and I intend to be critical of the a copy. We managed to get a photocopy. government in that regard during the second This treaty is simply unfair. Yes, Timor reading debate. There are issues which go to has agreed to it, but the amount of revenue the development of the field. No doubt there they are going to get, particularly from the are commercial issues. We need to under- Sunrise field which is worth up to something stand that, whatever we do here, nothing will

CHAMBER 21760 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 like $30 billion, is only 18 per cent. As the cial parties but also NGOs who had taken an Labor Party has just said, while they do get interest in the legislation. Only two NGOs significant benefits from it compared with indicated an interest in appearing before the any other revenue opportunities they have— public hearing, one of which ultimately did and that is, I think, why they signed: the fact not appear. However, written submissions that they will get at least something from were received from four NGOs—that is, the it—it is nothing like what they are entitled Timor Sea Justice Campaign, which did ap- to. I believe we need more time to air this pear; the East Timor Institute for Reconstruc- matter here and publicly. While Australians tion Monitoring and Analysis; Australians for obviously want their government to maxi- a Free East Timor; and Oxfam Community mise opportunities for revenue, to provide Aid Abroad. Those submissions were before the best possible services for Australians, in the committee and were considered by it in this case we are going to be doing it at the its deliberations, as were submissions by four expense of a very impoverished country, a interested private citizens. The only com- country that is supposedly our neighbour and mercial party which made a submission but our friend. We are going to be doing it in a which did not appear before the hearing was very rushed and hurried manner when we Woodside Energy Ltd. should, I believe, be opening this up to far So although it is true to say, as Senator more community consultation. I think most Brown has said, that there were only two Australians will agree that it is far better to brackets of witnesses, that is, Mr Nicholson support this country by ensuring they get from the Timor Sea Justice Campaign—and I what they are entitled to from this gas field interpolate to say that I agree with Senator than to continually be giving them direct aid Brown that Mr Nicholson was a very impres- and support to provide basic things such as sive witness—and the Public Service wit- schools and health services. So I see no rea- nesses from the department of industry, son to rush and will be voting against the Treasury, DFAT and the Attorney-General’s motion to exempt the bills from the cut-off. Department, nevertheless there were eight Senator BRANDIS (Queensland) (9.55 other interested parties whose submissions a.m.)—I was the Chairman of the Senate were before the committee. Economics Legislation Committee which The next point I wish to make is that the conducted the hearing into this bill last Mon- government of East Timor did not make a day evening. I want to respond briefly to submission to the committee nor indicate an some of the statements that we have heard interest in appearing before it. Perhaps that is from Senator Brown and Senator Stott De- not surprising, because all these bills do is spoja, both of whom participated in that give effect to an agreement between the gov- hearing, and also from Senator Harris and ernment of Australia and the government of Senator Lees, who did not. The Greater Sun- Timor Leste. Nevertheless, out of abundant rise Unitisation Agreement Implementation caution I asked the secretary of the commit- Bill 2004 and related bill were referred to the tee, Dr Bachelard, to approach the East legislation committee on 10 March, and I am Timorese embassy in Canberra to inquire advised by the committee secretariat that the whether or not the ambassador wished to hearings were advertised in the ordinary make a submission or wished to appear, ab- fashion on the Internet on 12 March. The sent a written submission, at the hearing. secretariat also approached by telephone That approach by telephone was followed up various interested parties, not only commer- by a letter which I sent to His Excellency the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21761

Ambassador, Mr Teme, on 19 March remind- negotiation between those two nations. The ing him of the hearing and again indicating commercial arrangements to which this leg- that if he wished to appear on behalf of his islation will give effect and which reflect the government he was welcome to do so but agreement of the government of Timor Leste there was no necessity for him to do so. The and the government of Australia are ex- committee secretariat was contacted by the pressly, by the terms of the agreement— embassy during the course of Monday, and it which is a treaty, or has the character of a was indicated to the secretariat that they did treaty, between the two nations—without not wish to appear or otherwise to make a prejudice to any ultimate determination of submission. So the suggestion that this has the negotiations of the line of the seabed and been done in a rush which has prevented in- maritime boundary. Although the JPDA is to terested parties, including NGOs, let alone the north and west of the median point be- the government of East Timor, from putting tween the coastlines of Australia and East their point of view to the committee simply Timor, it is factually incorrect to say that this is not so. area of seabed falls within East Timorese Mr Nicholson, the one witness who not seabed territory, just as it is quite incorrect as only made a written submission but also ap- a matter of law to say that, ordinarily, the peared before the committee in person, gave seabed and maritime boundary between two a very vigorous critique of the legislation and littoral states is the median point between gave a very good account of himself. As their coastlines. chairman of the committee, I indulged Sena- What Senator Harris did not tell the Sen- tor Brown and Senator Stott Despoja by al- ate—perhaps because he was ignorant of the lowing the hearings of the committee to run fact—is that the edge of the Australian conti- on for almost three-quarters of an hour be- nental shelf, which projects from the north- yond the scheduled adjournment time so that western coast of Western Australia, is much it could not honestly be said that there was closer to the southern and eastern boundaries any constraint on the capacity of Senator of the land mass of East Timor than it is to Brown or Senator Stott Despoja—two sena- the northern and western boundaries of the tors who adopted a critical attitude to the land mass of Australia. Senator Harris is per- legislation—to ask the questions which they haps ignorant of the fact that, in the determi- wished to ask. No time limit was imposed nation of international seabed and maritime upon either of them. boundaries, the locality of the continental Those are the facts. Before I sit down, I shelf between littoral states is a much more wish to comment on something Senator Har- highly relevant circumstance than the median ris said. This is not the time to debate the point between the coastlines. The locality of merits of these bills, but the record should that boundary is now the subject of negotia- not go uncorrected. Senator Harris made the tion between those two governments. This assertion that the Sunrise field—which falls treaty, and the agreement which gives effect across the boundaries of the joint petroleum to it, are expressly without prejudice to any development area which has been defined in outcome which those negotiations might the agreement between the government of produce. Australia and the government of Timor Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) Leste—is in East Timorese territory. The (10.04 a.m.)—I want to express concern. I do maritime and seabed boundary between Aus- not want to get into the debate itself; nor are tralia and East Timor is still the subject of we allowed, I think, under standing orders to

CHAMBER 21762 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 get into the debate. Various assertions have has just come in, as I said, and I did not have been made. Senator Brandis has made some the legislation in my hands until this morn- statements recently. I do not want to discuss ing. I do not know where the slip-up was, but those statements or anything that other sena- I have not had a chance to read the legisla- tors have said. I express my concern at the tion. fact that the way we are proposing to deal I just wonder whether a few days here or with this matter is to make it the subject of a there would make a big difference. I know cut-off from the requirements of standing some indication has been given that certain order 111. That is the motion before us. From honourable senators do not want to be re- my point of view that is inappropriate. Oth- sponsible for the lack of flow of what mon- ers might have known about this beforehand, eys may come out of this for the benefit of but I have only just received the report of the the other party—or for the benefit of this Senate Economics Legislation Committee; it party, as far as that is concerned—but I pre- is just to hand. I have not had the time to sume from my brief reading that, if we pass rapidly read through it because I was trying this legislation eventually, the agreement will to listen to some of the submissions that have effect anyhow retrospective to the dates were made. I do not know whether I am the that presumably are in the agreement. All I only one who has a printed copy. I may have ask is for a fair crack of the whip. It is a bit the first printed copy. hard to ask an individual senator or senators Senator Brandis—We furnished a copy to make up their minds on a piece of legisla- to Senator Brown yesterday, incidentally, tion about which we have received informa- Senator Harradine, before the end of question only very recently. tion time. I should have mentioned that in Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) my speech. (10.09 a.m.)—The Greens are opposing this Senator HARRADINE—Well, you motion by the government to push through didn’t give me one. I am just expressing my this legislation because we recognise it is not point of view in coming upon legislation and urgent. The government has put a case to say trying to understand it. Normally, Senator that it believes it is urgent that we grab the Ian Campbell, the Manager of Government oil away from the Timorese before there is a Business, makes certain that people have the capacity to deal with this in the International relevant documentation upon which to make Court of Justice, where the matter of the a decision. maritime boundary should be dealt with. Senators might say that this legislation is This government has withdrawn itself from giving effect to a treaty that is already the jurisdiction and so from being able to be signed. That is an argument that the govern- involved in that determination about the ment may well make, and make validly from maritime boundary, and now it is trying to its point of view, but we should not take pull through a piece of legislation that does away the rights of others in the arena, includ- not just put in place a treaty that has already ing the parliament if it wishes to thoroughly been ratified. consider the agreement to see whether or not There is a range of questions that will be the implementing legislation is appropriate. asked during the debate about the process by But, to do that, you do need to have the in- which that treaty was ratified, but what we formation. All right, the treaties committee see here in the piece of legislation the gov- reported some time ago, but this latest report ernment is trying to bring through today is

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21763 not simply a transferral of what was in the raping of resources from East Timor by the treaty into a piece of implementing legisla- Australian government. It is not urgent that tion. With this piece of legislation, the gov- we take their oil, and we will not support this ernment is attempting to ensure that if the motion to ram through a piece of legislation decision about the maritime boundary be- that ensures that Australia takes from the tween Australia and East Timor is made in East Timorese the oil that under international the court—the maritime boundary that, if we law is rightly theirs. put it in the centre of the two continents, en- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western sures that the entire gas reserve is on the side Australia—Minister for Local Government, of the East Timorese—then that decision by Territories and Roads) (10.13 a.m.)—I thank the court will be dismissed. all honourable senators for their contribu- Firstly, let us remember that the govern- tions to the debate. I particularly thank Sena- ment has withdrawn from the court in which tor George Brandis, the chairman of the the determination will be made, and now it is committee that diligently inquired into this attempting in legislation to ensure that if a bill. I just make the point that the govern- decision is made in the court it will not be ment, under the standing orders, brings for- primary to the decision because it will al- ward legislation. The reason we seek exemp- ready have a piece of legislation through that tion from the provisions of standing order will ensure that Australia gets its hands on 111 is that we would like to deal with this the oil of the East Timorese. East Timor is legislation in these sittings. What occurs on one of the poorest nations in our region, a days like today is that the government brings country over which this government made a forward a bill and seeks to have it dealt with great fanfare about the role it played in going by the democratically elected Senate of Aus- in and supporting the Timorese at the time of tralia, the Senate will vote on this motion and the Indonesian militias. Having been in East determine whether or not this legislation Timor after the Indonesian militias had gone shall be dealt with in these sittings by being through and devastated the country, with read a second time today, and so democracy many Australians working there, Australians will work. have a responsibility to that country—and it I note that we circulated a statement of is not to grab the oil out from under their feet reasons why this bill needs to be introduced before they have the capacity for a determi- and why the government seek passage of it nation to be made in the International Court in 2004. In his contribution, Senator Brown of Justice, where it is right and proper that a said that the government had not given any determination should be made as to whom reasons for that. That is not true. We have the oil does belong. given reasons. He may not like the reasons, That is the intention of this government, nor may Senator Nettle, Senator Lees, Sena- and its intention in relation to the urgency of tor Harradine or others, but we believe that this legislation is to ensure that greater pres- this is important for Australia and important sure than has already been exerted is put on for the Greater Sunrise development, which the East Timorese government over the issue is a fantastic project that an Australian com- of the Timor Sea Treaty. It is not urgent that pany, Woodside, should go forward with. we grab the oil from the Timorese before Quite frankly, without being melodramatic they have the capacity to have the boundaries about it, I want to say it really is a wonderful determined under in the International Court week. We had BHP Billiton in Western Aus- of Justice. The Greens will never support this tralia announcing the go-ahead for the

CHAMBER 21764 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Ravensthorpe nickel project yesterday after- this Senate’s scrutiny of legislation and pol- noon—a wonderful project for Australia and icy. I commend the motion to the Senate. a great project for the south-west of Western Question put: Australia—and today, 24 hours later, we are That the motion (Senator Ian Campbell’s) be debating the need to progress and seeking agreed to. passage of a bill that will see one of the The Senate divided. [10.22 a.m.] greatest petroleum projects in the history of mankind progress just off our shores between (The Acting Deputy President—Senator Australia and one of the world’s newest na- S.C. Knowles) tions, if not the newest nation, Timor Leste. Ayes………… 41 It is a wonderful achievement. Noes………… 12 It is entirely appropriate that the Senate Majority……… 29 deals with it if there is a majority to deal with it. Standing order 111 does not say that AYES you cannot deal with it; it just says that the Bishop, T.M. Boswell, R.L.D. Senate needs to think about whether it should Brandis, G.H. Buckland, G. deal with it in that session. That is what we Campbell, G. Campbell, I.G. are doing. It is entirely appropriate that we Carr, K.J. Chapman, H.G.P. Crossin, P.M. Denman, K.J. debate it. The committee that Senator Bran- Eggleston, A. * Evans, C.V. dis chairs had this matter referred to it on Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. 10 March, a fortnight ago. Any senator who Forshaw, M.G. Hogg, J.J. had an interest either could have been in- Humphries, G. Hutchins, S.P. volved physically, as Senator Brown and Johnston, D. Kirk, L. Senator Stott Despoja were, or could have Knowles, S.C. Ludwig, J.W. followed the proceedings if they were unable Lundy, K.A. Macdonald, J.A.L. Mackay, S.M. Mason, B.J. to attend. The committee report, I am as- McGauran, J.J.J. McLucas, J.E. sured, was available less than an hour after Moore, C. O’Brien, K.W.K. the committee reported in this chamber last Patterson, K.C. Payne, M.A. night. Any senator who wanted to get a copy Ray, R.F. Santoro, S. last night could have had a copy and read the Scullion, N.G. Sherry, N.J. report of the Brandis committee. Stephens, U. Tchen, T. Troeth, J.M. Watson, J.O.W. Senator O’Brien made the very good point Webber, R. that the treaty itself has been considered by a NOES very worthwhile committee of the parlia- Allison, L.F. * Bartlett, A.J.J. ment. No-one can say that these matters have Brown, B.J. Cherry, J.C. not been given thorough consideration by the Greig, B. Harradine, B. parliament of Australia and most particularly Harris, L. Lees, M.H. by the Senate of Australia. Any senator who Murray, A.J.M. Nettle, K. wanted to take an interest in these matters or Ridgeway, A.D. Stott Despoja, N. anyone in the community who had an inter- * denotes teller est in these matters—it was advertised to the Question agreed to. world 13 days ago that there would be an Consideration of Legislation inquiry—could have been involved in the Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western proud democratic traditions of Australia and Australia—Manager of Government Busi-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21765 ness in the Senate) (10.26 a.m.)—by leave— ing developed as soon as possible. In particu- I move the motion as amended: lar, the development of these resources will That the provisions of paragraphs (5), (6) and generate for East Timor revenue desperately (8) of standing order 111 not apply to the follow- needed to rebuild an independent and sus- ing bills, allowing them to be considered during tainable future. this period of sittings: Labor warmly welcomes Timor Leste into Higher Education Legislation Amendment the community of nations and welcomes the Bill 2004 progress achieved by the people and gov- Telecommunications (Interception) Amend- ernment of Timor Leste in working to build a ment Bill 2004. viable, self-sustaining, independent and sov- Question agreed to. ereign state. The status of Timor Leste as an Rearrangement independent nation amongst all others is a tribute to the resolve of its people. But the Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western resolve of a people is not enough for a coun- Australia—Manager of Government Busi- try such as Timor Leste to take its place ness in the Senate) (10.27 a.m.)—I move: amongst the prosperous nations of the planet. That intervening business be postponed till af- That nation continues to face significant ter consideration of the government business or- economic and social challenges in its nation der of the day relating to the Greater Sunrise Uni- tisation Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 and building, including the re-establishment of a related bill. essential social services, revitalising the economy, generating employment and Question agreed to. achieving food self-sufficiency. GREATER SUNRISE UNITISATION The development of the petroleum re- AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION sources of Timor Leste and the funding that BILL 2004 will flow from this is vital to that country’s CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT economic and social development. The pas- (GREATER SUNRISE) BILL 2004 sage of these bills is just a small step for Second Reading Australia to take in enabling that develop- Debate resumed from 10 March, on moment to occur. However, more important for tion by Senator Ian Campbell: Timor Leste than the passage of these bills is the conclusion of a permanent maritime That these bills be now read a second time. boundary. This government has shown a de- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (10.27 sire to ram these bills through both houses of a.m.)—The Greater Sunrise Unitisation parliament in just one day; yet it appears in Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 and the no hurry whatsoever to meet with representa- Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater Sun- tives of the Democratic Republic of Timor rise) Bill 2004 give effect to the international Leste to negotiate a permanent maritime unitisation agreement between Australia and boundary. the Democratic Republic of Timor Leste for the development of the Greater Sunrise pe- Worse than this, its actions with respect to troleum resources. This agreement was these bills are completely at odds with the signed by Australia and Timor Leste in Dili concept of negotiating in good faith. There on 6 March 2003. The interests of both Aus- can be no doubt that this was all about bully- tralia and Timor Leste will be best served by ing the government of Timor Leste and pres- the Greater Sunrise petroleum resources be- suring them in the lead-up to maritime

CHAMBER 21766 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 boundary negotiations. Unlike the bullyboy This government can, and I guess in all tactics of the Howard government and those likelihood will, drag out negotiations on particularly of the foreign minister, Labor in what is the single most important issue for government will negotiate in good faith with Timor Leste—the permanent maritime Timor Leste and in full accordance with in- boundary—yet it condemned the Labor Party ternational law and it will do all things rea- for delaying these bills by just one week af- sonably practicable to achieve a negotiated ter providing less than 24 hours to review settlement within three to five years. I call on these bills when it had a whole year to draft this government to match that commitment. them. This government claimed that referral The shadow minister, Mr Fitzgibbon, tells to the Senate Economics Legislation Com- me that this government has told East Timor: mittee could delay the bills for a year. Is this ... it does not have the resources to meet on a government already preparing itself to lose monthly basis on this issue as requested by Timor control of the legislative agenda, which un- Leste. der the quaint practices of the Westminster Thanks to the economic reforms—which system is in the sole control of the govern- were shirked, might I say, by the current ment of the day? If the minister had an- Prime Minister when he was Treasurer but swered Labor’s questions relating to the cus- implemented by Labor after 1983—Australia toms tariff amendment bill when the bills is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. were first introduced, the bills may not have For the Howard government to say that Aus- been delayed at all. Woodside’s move to im- tralia does not have the resources is an af- mediately address Labor’s concern on Aus- front to the people of Timor Leste, one of the tralian industry participation puts Minister poorest countries in the world. Macfarlane’s lack of knowledge on this matter into sharp focus. Now that Woodside has Such a statement by the Howard govern- provided the written assurances that should ment to Timor Leste can mean only one of have been provided to Australian industry two things—either it is a diplomatic smoke- and Australian workers by this government, screen or it is a portent of the state of the Labor is pleased to give passage to these Commonwealth budget after the Howard bills. government, lacking an agenda and looking very tired, has attempted to buy itself back Petroleum projects wholly in Australian into office. Labor considers that Australia waters must undertake a process of consulta- should generously assist the people of Timor tion with Australian industry to maximise Leste—the people who assisted our troops so Australian industry participation and to qual- greatly and at great cost to themselves during ify for the duty-free entry of goods not able the dark days of the Second World War—as to be sourced competitively within Australia. they work towards an independent future. We This process is known as the enhanced pol- should be comprehensively engaged in sup- icy by-law scheme, item 71 of the fourth porting sustainable development in that schedule of the Customs Tariff Act. In its country, and the settlement of a permanent current form as drafted by the Howard gov- maritime boundary is a critical component of ernment, the Customs Tariff Amendment this. The dragging out of negotiations on this (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004 means that in the issue by this government is shameful behav- case of Greater Sunrise there will be no re- iour in the international community. quirement for these consultative processes to occur. Unlike the anti-Australian business stance of the Howard government, Labor’s

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21767 view is that these processes should occur maritime boundary negotiations. I note that with respect to the Greater Sunrise area, and article 2(b) of the Timor Sea Treaty states: Woodside has now committed to undertake Nothing contained in this Treaty and no acts tak- them. This government should have been ing place while this Treaty is in force shall be looking after the interests of Australian in- interpreted as prejudicing or affecting Australia’s dustry and Australian workers, yet it was or East Timor’s position on or rights relating to a nowhere to be seen on this issue. The Senate seabed delimitation or their respective seabed committee process has been important and entitlements. useful in allowing time for this issue to be I also note, however, the concerns expressed addressed and resolved and allowing time to by the Prime Minister of Timor Leste, Dr more fully review the bills to ensure that Mari Alkatiri, that the Howard government’s they are entirely consistent with what has statements and actions are inconsistent with been already agreed between Australia and the spirit and the letter of the international Timor Leste and that they will not prejudice unitisation agreement. Timor Leste’s right in the Timor Sea in any While Labor shares these concerns and way. calls again on the Howard government to act As I said before, when these bills were in good faith on these issues, we are satisfied originally introduced into the Senate, Labor that these bills do not, in themselves, preju- had less than 24 hours to undertake this re- dice in any way Timor Leste’s rights in the view, while the government had sat on them Timor Sea or the negotiations to establish a for a year. The all-party committee has con- permanent maritime boundary. The concerns cluded that in all respects these bills are en- expressed by Dr Alkatiri lie not within these tirely consistent with the Timor Sea Treaty bills but on the shoulders of this government. and the international unitisation agreement as The other major area of concern raised in they were signed by both the Australian gov- evidence to the inquiry relates to whether ernment and the Democratic Republic of any revenue generated from the Greater Sun- Timor Leste in Dili on 20 May 2002 and rise resource should be held in trust or es- 6 March 2003 respectively. For that reason— crow until such time as the maritime bound- that the bills simply implement what has al- ary dispute between Australia and Timor ready been agreed between the two coun- Leste is settled. According to the Timor Sea tries—Labor is happy now to give the bills Justice Campaign this would remove any passage. Labor is not happy about the things incentive for Australia to delay a settlement that have not been agreed, however, and calls on the maritime boundary and would remove on this government to do the right thing and the possibility of Australia being unjustly to negotiate in good faith and in a timely enriched at the expense of East Timor. Under manner with Timor Leste to establish a per- a Labor government this will be totally un- manent maritime boundary that is just and necessary because we will negotiate in good fair and that reflects the joint aspirations of faith with the people of Timor Leste and we both countries. The Labor Party is not alone will do all that we can to settle the maritime in its deep concern about this issue. This is boundary issue expeditiously. In any case, one of the main concerns raised in evidence the Attorney-General’s Department said that to the inquiry. there is no need for a trust or escrow account It is also important to Labor that the pas- because the unitisation agreement itself sage of these bills in no way prejudices specifies the allocation of the proceeds be- Timor Leste’s right in the Timor Sea or the tween the two countries.

CHAMBER 21768 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

The Senate committee noted that there is Leste, particularly in relation to its dealings provision in the unitisation agreement for on the matter of the Timor Sea. I think it is a either country to request a review of the pro- tragedy that a nation which was instrumental duction sharing formula and for the formula in assisting Timor Leste to achieve its inde- to be altered by agreement between Australia pendent status could subsequently treat its and Timor Leste. The passage of these bills newest neighbour with contempt. will provide the developers of the Greater Let us be clear: when it comes to plunder- Sunrise field with the regulatory certainty ing the rich resources in the Timor Sea, Aus- that is so important to attracting investment tralia staked its claim from the outset— capital and product markets to underpin de- literally from the first moment of Timor velopment, for which there is intense global Leste’s independence. On 20 May 2000 competition. Timely development of Greater Timor Leste became the world’s newest na- Sunrise will deliver investment, exports, jobs tion. Before the day was over the Australian and revenue to both countries. Timely government ensured that they had signed the agreement on a permanent maritime bound- Timor Sea Treaty and an exchange of notes ary will provide many more opportunities for to govern arrangements until the treaty came economic development for both countries, into force. The drafting of these agreements but particularly for Timor Leste in its enor- was not the only preparation undertaken by mous challenge to rebuild an independent the Australian government in the lead-up to sovereign state and provide for the economic Timor Leste’s independence. Two months and social welfare of its people. earlier the government had apparently se- Labor, as I said, has deep reservations cretly sent officials to New York to lodge about the conduct of the Howard government declarations in which Australia withdrew over the course of this entire affair—the bul- from the jurisdiction of the International lying of the East Timorese and the contemp- Court of Justice and the United Nations tuous approach the government has taken in Convention on the Law of the Sea specifi- the Senate in relation to these bills. As far as cally in relation to maritime boundaries. I am aware, however, no representative of Later, in the national interest analysis, the the Democratic Republic of Timor Leste has government conceded that the secrecy sur- asked that these bills not be passed. We also rounding that mission was intended to pre- note that Timor Leste must legislate for simi- vent any claims being brought against Aus- lar measures for these matters to take effect. tralia under international law prior to the In these circumstances, we do not intend to lodging of the declarations. obstruct passage of this legislation. Ulti- There is plenty of evidence to suggest that mately, we believe, it will fall to Labor to Australia’s withdrawal from UNCLOS and address the damage to Australia’s relation- the ICJ has been interpreted as an act of bad ship with Timor Leste that this episode has faith by the people of Timor Leste. The evi- caused and we will embrace that responsibil- dence is out there; it is in the public domain. ity when it is presented to us by the Austra- The evidence is in grassroots reports from lian people, hopefully later this year. non-government organisations. Indeed it is in Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- evidence before committees: the Joint Stand- tralia) (10.40 a.m.)—Once again I rise in this ing Committee on Treaties and the Econom- chamber to express my disappointment, ics Legislation Committee that dealt with shame and anger at the way that this gov- this legislation. This evidence has been pre- ernment has treated the people of Timor sented to inquiries into this legislation and to

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21769 the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties claim fail in the ICJ? Is it that our govern- during its inquiry into the Timor Sea Treaty. I ment may suspect that Timor Leste may just note that in the previous debate there was an have the stronger claim? After all, the Joint acknowledgment of the fact that the agree- Petroleum Development Area lies on Timor ment was considered by the Joint Standing Leste’s side of the median line between it Committee on Treaties. The Democrats were and Australia, and the Greater Sunrise field involved in that process and we have a report is twice as close to Timor Leste as it is to that outlines some of our concerns. Australia. The conduct of Australia in withdrawing Australia’s withdrawal from UNCLOS from those bodies not only reflects very and from the ICJ was one of the first heavy- badly on Australia but sets a poor standard of handed tactics used in relation to Timor behaviour for our newest neighbour. In their Leste in the history of this shameful saga. submission to the Joint Standing Committee There is also the fact that Timor Leste was on Treaties, the East Timor Institute for Re- compelled to sign the Greater Sunrise construction Monitoring and Analysis said: agreement in circumstances in which it had Australia and others in the international commu- little choice. This goes to the heart of the nity consistently encourage East Timor’s new bills before us, the Greater Sunrise Unitisa- government to implement democracy, the rule of tion Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 law, transparency and safeguards against corrup- and the Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater tion as we develop our governmental structures Sunrise) Bill 2004. The government has con- and practices ... at the same time, Australia is not sistently argued that these bills should be practicing what you are preaching us to do. When passed because they simply fulfil Australia’s your country withdrew from legal processes for obligations under the Greater Sunrise agree- resolving maritime boundary disputes, you taught us the opposite message—that when the booty is ment. This, of course, is also the argument large enough, the legal principles go out the win- that has been put forward today and previ- dow. ously by the opposition. That is the justifica- The Australian Democrats have long be- tion that the opposition has put forward for lieved that it is in our country’s best interests supporting the bills that are before us. to support the structures and principles of the The response of both parties to the serious international legal system which have been concerns expressed by Democrats, NGOs established to promote collective security, and others is that the agreement has already the just resolution of disputes and interna- been signed and, more specifically, that it tional peace. In practical terms this means was agreed to by Timor Leste. On face value, submitting to the rule of law even when this this argument is accurate. However, the may be contrary to our immediate financial Greater Sunrise agreement must be consid- interests. ered in the context in which it was signed. There is also an obvious point: if Australia Prior to the signing of that agreement, Timor is so confident of its claim under interna- Leste expressed serious concerns regarding tional law, why would we fear submitting it its terms. These concerns related to Timor to the jurisdiction of the ICJ as a last resort— Leste’s view that most, if not all, of Greater that is, if negotiations should fail in any Sunrise falls within its borders under interna- way? If our claim is so strong and we are so tional law and therefore it is entitled to any confident of it, why would we withdraw taxation revenue. from those jurisdictions? Why would the

CHAMBER 21770 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

It remains unclear whether or not the lia claims it does not have the resources to agreement would survive a subsequent meet more than twice a year. As the release change to Timor Leste’s maritime boundaries points out, Timor Leste is one of the poorest or whether it would be possible to amend the countries in the world, yet we are one of the agreement to reflect the new boundaries. On richest. Meanwhile the Australian govern- the basis of these concerns, Timor Leste ment continues to grant licences and collect wanted the ratification of the Timor Sea revenue in areas of the Timor Sea which po- Treaty to proceed independently from the tentially belong to Timor Leste. negotiations of the Greater Sunrise agree- If we were under any illusions or uncer- ment. However, evidence suggests that it was tainty in relation to that last statement, it was Australia that insisted that Timor Leste sign clarified in questioning at the Senate com- the agreement before Australia would pro- mittee on Monday night. Certainly, I and ceed with the ratification of the Timor Sea others put to the government, to representa- Treaty. This doggedness was compounded by tives of the departments, that we wanted to a looming commercial deadline for the ratifi- know the rationale for the monthly meetings. cation of the treaty. It had to be ratified by Indeed, a strong argument was: that is not 11 March 2003 to ensure that the $15 billion enough time in which to judge the complexi- Bayu-Undan development would proceed. ties of this debate and, indeed, the legal de- We all remember that debate in the chamber. bates that are taking place. But I did not hear It seems that these debates are always char- compelling evidence for six-monthly meet- acterised by rush and haste to get them ings—meetings twice a year—instead of through. each month as requested by the government By insisting that the Greater Sunrise of Timor Leste. We have not heard compel- agreement be finalised prior to the ratifica- ling reasons for such a great period between tion of the Timor Sea Treaty, the Australian meetings. That does not smack of good government compelled Timor Leste to agree faith—quite the opposite. It smacks of a to compromise its long-term interests in or- government that is taking its time; it is not der to meet its short-term needs. Timor Leste indeed proceeding in an expeditious manner. has also indicated that it signed the Greater The Timor Leste government points out Sunrise agreement on the understanding that that, since signing the Greater Sunrise Australia would proceed with the negotiation agreement, Australia has issued two explora- of the permanent maritime boundaries expe- tion licences in areas adjacent to the Greater ditiously and in good faith. We have heard a Sunrise field. It has also earned an estimated lot about good faith in this chamber today. In $1.5 billion from the Corallina, Laminaria a press release issued this week, the Timor and Buffalo fields, all of which are in dis- Leste Prime Minister, Dr Alkatiri, said: puted areas. I do not think anyone denies We signed this agreement on the clear under- that. Once again, I refer to Prime Minister standing that Australia recognised our claims and Alkatiri’s press release: sought not to prejudice our rights in the Timor Timor-Leste has no maritime boundaries, and Sea, as stated in the IUA, and that consequently, it securing them is an integral part of the new na- would engage in good faith negotiations on per- tion’s right to self-determination. The resources manent boundaries. that Timor-Leste is entitled to under international Yet Dr Alkatiri notes that while Timor Leste law will be crucial in helping to rebuild the shat- has proposed monthly meetings aimed at tered nation, address mass poverty and achieve resolving this dispute expeditiously, Austra- economic independence.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21771

While I acknowledge that people in this course, need to be considered. In this case chamber today have put forward potential we believe that the overwhelming negative views, or have speculated about the views of impact of the Greater Sunrise agreement on the government of Timor Leste, you cannot Australia’s foreign relations and standing get it bolder than that. It is a statement from within the international community far out- the Prime Minister of Timor Leste, in the weighs—certainly, it is beginning to far out- Prime Minister’s own press release. They are weigh—the financial benefit that will flow incredibly concerned about the process and from proceeding with ratification at this the rate at which it is proceeding. time. And the timing of the legislation is This brings me to whether or not ratifica- what we are talking about. tion of the Greater Sunrise agreement is in Let us be frank: there are other countries Australia’s best interests. The rhetoric that paying attention to this. Many countries are we so often hear from government officials paying attention to how we are handling this. and, indeed, from the government today in This subject is being viewed by the eyes of this place is that Australia has a right to pur- the world. Only last week, as we know, 54 sue its own interests in the same way that Congress men and women from America Timor Leste will no doubt pursue its own wrote to our Prime Minister to express their interests. However, this argument is based on concerns about the way in which negotia- the assumption that Australia’s best interests tions were being handled and ask us to expe- are somehow inconsistent with those of dite those negotiations. Indeed, part of the Timor Leste. letter, as I understand it, also referred to The Democrats do not believe this is the something which Senator O’Brien referred case. On the contrary, we believe that it is in to, the notion of keeping that revenue in trust our nation’s best interests to help the people until the boundaries were finally determined. and the government of Timor Leste to be- The letter called on our government to expe- come a strong, independent and financially dite negotiations. secure nation. As the Timor Sea Justice This recommendation in relation to the Campaign argues, it is not in Australia’s in- trust has also been put forward by the Timor terests for Timor Leste to have significant Sea Justice Campaign in its submission on debts and to remain dependent on aid. Ox- the bills. The Democrats believe it is a good fam Community Aid Abroad have argued: recommendation and one which the Senate For Australia, an economically unviable East should adopt. I will move an amendment to Timor could threaten national security and that of proceed in that way. This is the intent of the the region. An unstable East Timor could lead to a Democrat second reading amendment: we flow of refugees to Australia with associated are calling on the government to hold all tax costs. The Australian and international commu- revenue it receives from Greater Sunrise in nity would expect the Australian government to trust until the permanent boundaries have bear much of the responsibility for increased hu- been determined. We believe that this will manitarian aid and assistance, and the provision of continued peacekeeping and security assistance provide an incentive for our government to to East Timor. expedite the negotiations with Timor Leste. It is unfortunate that a financial incentive is The Democrats believe that financial benefit required but obviously there is overwhelm- should not be the sole determining factor as ing evidence to suggest that, in the absence to whether a particular action is in the best of such an incentive, our government will interests of Australia. Other factors, of maintain what we consider is a lax approach

CHAMBER 21772 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 to negotiations while still continuing to help While I acknowledge that some senators itself to revenue that could belong to the from the Labor Party and the coalition be- people of Timor Leste. lieve that this legislation has been adequately I note that production on the Greater Sun- dealt with because it occurs within the con- rise field is not due to commence until 2009, text of the broader agreements that have al- which means of course that there is plenty of ready been debated and analysed, be it time for maritime boundary negotiations to through other committees or specifically be completed without holding up the flow of through the Joint Standing Committee on revenue from the field. In other words, it Treaties, I have to note that every time we may be that there is no need to place revenue have dealt with legislation pertaining to these in trust because the permanent boundaries agreements—firstly, the Timor Sea Treaty will have been determined before any reve- and now Greater Sunrise—we have dealt nue is collected. That is certainly what the with them with an alacrity that is unde- Democrats are hoping could be achieved. served, unwarranted and inappropriate. Significantly, the Australian government On both occasions now, we have run into has not been able to identify any problems the chamber, having been given legislation at associated with the Democrats’s proposal. I very short notice. In fact last time this was specifically asked questions in relation to due for debate, around 10 March, two weeks this at the committee proceedings on Mon- ago, senators came in here, having only just day night. While a number of officers, I ac- been given a copy of the legislation that knowledge, expressed the view that the trust morning—indeed, all senators except the fund requirement was unnecessary, I do not Australian Democrats. I acknowledge that believe that anyone sufficiently identified was a genuine mistake on behalf of the gov- any problem or specific difficulty that would ernment; it was not intended. However, it arise from the adoption of that proposal. was completely inappropriate, hence our in- sistence that this legislation be referred to With that in mind, I urge honourable sena- committee. The committee process was ex- tors to consider the proposal carefully. I cer- pedited on Monday night. Clearly, we had a tainly call on the opposition, in light of their couple of hours for a hearing. Those of us comments today, to favourably view an who could participate did. There is abso- amendment which I think would be quite a lutely no negative reflection on the secre- constructive addition to this debate. We be- tariat; I thought they handled the situation lieve that it is important and eminently rea- incredibly well. Indeed, I acknowledge that sonable. It is a proposal that clearly has sup- people had the opportunity to present both port outside this chamber. Its underlying ob- verbal and written submissions. But that does jective is to ensure a just and fair distribution not deny the fact that there are many groups of resources in the Timor Sea in accordance out there who have expressed to me—and, I with international law. have no doubt, to other members of the I want to make just a couple more com- chamber—their concern that it was done ments about the process that has taken place very speedily and that there are other groups in relation to this legislation. I was very care- who, with more time, would have contrib- ful in my comments in relation to the cut-off uted to the debate in a more meaningful way. exemption debate not to go into the substan- I think that the government underesti- tive issues surrounding the bills. I was keen mates the level of community interest in this to stick only to process and to speak briefly. legislation, not just among the Australian

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21773 community but also among the Timor Leste East Timor in accordance with the community. It does that at its peril. I was not permanent maritime boundaries. seeking to deny or delay these bills in a way Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.00 that was unseemly or not constructive. But a a.m.)—The Greens will be supporting that couple of days? That is all we are talking amendment. In the committee stage I will be about. My amendment seeks to amend the moving two amendments on behalf of the legislation in a way that does not corrupt the Australian Greens: the first to refer the mat- substantive nature of these bills despite my ter of the dispute on the border between Aus- concerns with them and the concerns of oth- tralia and Timor Leste to the International ers in this place. It is at least a reasonable Court of Justice and the second to ensure that and constructive addition to legislation that if that does not occur—if there is not an end for many people has involved a process that to the disputation on the boundaries—then has been heartbreaking. Once again, I put on the agreement that is inherent in this legisla- record my concern about not only the proc- tion becomes null and void. ess but also potentially what we are doing to I want to reiterate the gravity of the situa- the community and the government of Timor tion that will arise out of this legislation. Leste. I move the second reading amendment Timor Leste is the poorest nation in our re- circulated in my name: gion. Australia is the richest nation in our At the end of the motion add: region. Following the fall of Suharto—after but the Senate: years of Australian governments of both per- (a) condemns the Government’s withdrawal suasions supporting the Suharto dictator- from the United Nations Convention on ship’s enslavement of East Timor—Australia the Law of the Sea and the jurisdiction went to the aid of East Timor after a very of the International Court of Justice bloody insurrection by the East Timorese relating to maritime boundaries; people. Remember that there was an East (b) calls on the Government to: Timorese population of 800,000 and there (i) work towards the permanent were estimates of a quarter of a million peo- delimitation of maritime boundaries ple killed after the invasion by Indonesia in between Australia and East Timor 1975. Remember the years following of expeditiously and in good faith; complicity in that illegal occupation by serial (ii) pending the permanent delimitation Australian governments of both the coalition of maritime boundaries between and the Labor Party. It is a shameful period Australia and East Timor, hold any in Australian history. It was not a position revenue that might otherwise have been that was supported by the Australian people, collected under the Petroleum Resource but Australian governments took that posi- Rent Tax Assessment Act 1987 from the area to which the Greater Sunrise tion in the interests of economics and power International Unitisation Agreement politics in the region. applies, in a denominated interest After the act of self-determination in bearing escrow account; and which the great majority of East Timorese (iii) upon the permanent delimitation of voted for nationhood and their own govern- maritime boundaries between Australia ance, Australia, with enormous support from and East Timor, ensure that all monies the Australian people, helped gain the peace and interest held in the escrow account and restore security to East Timor. For that be distributed between Australia and the East Timorese people have been hugely grateful. But the oil companies were present

CHAMBER 21774 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 in great numbers at the day of celebration of the past year, including the issuance of new ex- independence in East Timor. I know because ploration licences in disputed areas and the con- I was there. It was quite amazing how many tinuing collection of revenue from Laminaria- representatives of corporations were there, Corallina and other oil and gas fields claimed by rather than people from the general spectrum both East Timor and Australia, continues this behaviour. of the Australian and international communities. We now know that the Australian gov- Under current international law principles, the maritime boundary between two nearby nations’ ernment has been working in the interests of exclusive economic zones is almost always de- those companies to cement the theft of the fined along the median line between their coasts. oil and gas fields which lie on the East Once again, we urge Australia, as East Timor’s Timorese side of the border—that is, if it government has done officially, to recognise that were properly placed halfway between Aus- East Timor has a legitimate claim to maritime tralia and East Timor. resources which lie closer to East Timor’s coast Remember that in 1979 Australia agreed than to Australia’s, and to seriously and expeditiously negotiate a permanent maritime boundary with dictator Suharto to a border arrange- with your new neighbour to the north. Until that ment with Indonesia which put the boundary boundary is settled— between Australia and Indonesia at halfway. and note this, Acting Deputy President But with East Timor there was a different Kirk— outcome. East Timor has been expendable in terms of justice. It became expendable be- Australia’s extraction of resources and signing of cause there were already very rich people in contracts in this area is tantamount to an illegal occupation of our territory. corporate Australia and elsewhere who could make themselves richer by the theft of re- And so it is. sources from the East Timorese people. Senator Lightfoot—Rubbish! I turn to one of the submissions made to Senator BROWN—The honourable gov- the committee—which peremptorily met on ernment member opposite says ‘rubbish’ to a Monday night to look at the matter—to put clear and unarguable point of view which the an East Timorese point of view. This sub- government knows to be true and which the mission came from the East Timor Institute government itself has recognised by with- for Reconstruction Monitoring and Analysis. drawing the International Court of Justice’s It is in the name of Joao da Silva Sarmento, ability to adjudicate in the matter. This gov- Timor Sea Project Coordinator, and it is ernment knows what it is doing is illegal. authorised by the institute. It refers to the The submission from the East Timorese goes bills that we have in hand. Let me read the on to say: submission from the East Timorese people In our previous submission— represented in this document. It is addressed that was mid last year— to every member of this Senate and it says: we explained the self-serving mare nullius doc- Last year, we pointed out that the Sunrise trine that seems to govern Australia’s actions, and IUA— the current legislation perpetuates that fiction. By the agreement we are dealing with— repeatedly referring to the “Eastern Greater Sun- as coerced upon the new nation of East Timor, is rise Area” as “sole Australian jurisdiction,” you part of an ongoing effort by the Australian gov- deny the independence that so many East ernment to deny East Timor’s sovereignty for Timorese people struggled and died for over the Australia’s short-term material gains. We are past quarter-century. unhappy to observe that Australian policies over

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21775

This is the East Timorese people speaking to Here we have the East Timorese pointing out every senator in this place. They go on to why the Australian government moved say: stealthily without informing this parliament, Although Australia is rightfully proud of the role the people of Australia or anybody else: be- you played in leading InterFET in 1999 to help us cause it did not want a court to be able to be emerge from illegal Indonesian occupation, many approached to seek justice in this matter. East Timorese are beginning to wonder if it was a This was the Australian government acting to more pragmatic move—the beginning of a new avoid the law, and quite deceitfully under- military occupation so that our southern mining international law in the interests of neighbour could continue to steal our oil, just as the oil companies against its obligation to our northern neighbour formerly took our lives. inform the Australian people and the Austra- One illustration of the content your Government lian parliament. It takes the East Timorese to has for our nation is the use of the term “Joint tell us this. How must they feel about what is Authority” in the current legislation for an agency which represents only the Australian government. going on in this place today? Let me finish This is intentional obfuscation, but it exemplifies reading from this telling submission to this your government’s belief that there is no substan- Senate from this East Timorese authority. It tive difference between the TSDA joint authority says: comprised of two sovereign governments, and a We do not yet know which of East Timor’s legal “Joint Authority” between two hemispheres of a rights your government is attempting to under- Commonwealth Minister’s brain. mine by the rushed ratification of the Sunrise IUA Like many in Australia, we were surprised at the legislation, but past experience makes us con- urgent pace with which your Government tried to cerned. East Timor is Australia’s closest push this legislation through Parliament last week neighbour (as well as the largest, albeit unwilling, without prior notice, although the IUA— foreign contributor to the Commonwealth that is, the agreement— budget), and we believe that good relations between us, as well as the long-term economic and was signed more than a year ago, and the JSCT political stability of our new impoverished nation, issued its report in July 2003. The unseemly haste are in the best interests of both Australia and East with which this legislation is now moving Timor. through your Parliament reminds us of 22 March Unlike Australia’s withdrawal from— 2002, when your government withdrew from impartial maritime boundary dispute resolution the international court, this agreement— mechanisms under the International Court of Jus- requires ratification by the Government of the tice and the International Tribunal for the Law of Democratic Republic of East Timor as well as the Sea, informing your Parliament only after the that of the Commonwealth of Australia. We hope action was taken. At that time, your National In- that our new and under-resourced Government terest Analysis explained: will act with more fairness, fuller deliberation of “The action was not made public prior to it all relevant issues, attention to the rule of law, being taken to ensure the effectiveness of the consultation with its constituents, and considera- declaration was maintained. Public know- tion of the long- and short-term consequences of ledge of the proposed action could have led its action than your Government is demonstrating other countries to pre-empt the declaration with its approach to this legislation. by commencing an action against Australia What an indictment of this government— in the International Court of Justice that and, indeed, this opposition—is this submis- could not be brought once the new sion from East Timor. Here we have the declaration was made.” fraudulent, coercive theft of the one great resource this new, poor neighbour of ours

CHAMBER 21776 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 has to develop its future and to secure its Nation to stand up to what the big parties are future. doing. You must all feel ashamed, Acting Senator Lightfoot—It was discovered 30 Deputy President, because I do and so do the years ago. You can’t call that a rush. other members on the crossbench. What a terrible situation. Senator BROWN—Let me say this against the interjections opposite: there is a If I feel angry about it, how must the East matter of security here. You can hear in this Timorese who know about it feel? Involved submission from the East Timorese the rising in this is the robbery over the next three dec- tide of anger about this new colonialism be- ades of at least $8 billion from East Timor. ing implemented by the Howard government Do you know what, Acting Deputy Presi- and aided and abetted by the Latham opposi- dent? The budget of East Timor represents tion. It is despicable. It is untenable. It is un- $100 per head of population. That is $1 just. It has no place in a democratic country every third day that the government can which believes it went to East Timor on the spend per person in East Timor. Do you basis of principle. It leaves the East Timorese know what our budget is? It is hundreds of people themselves saying, ‘Did you really billions of dollars. Here is one of the poorest come to save us or did you come to grab the countries on the face of the earth—which oil?’ We believe increasingly the East needs to develop its schools, its hospitals, its Timorese are saying, ‘It looks like you are police and security forces and its agriculture; coming to get the oil.’ What will the Austra- to defend itself; and to build its tourism and lian people think of this in the coming years hospitality industries—and we are involved and decades when they recognise this coun- today in the process of taking from it its try is involved in high theft and illegal theft rightful money to do those things for the next and is denying an approach to the interna- three decades. We will live to regret this. tional court because it knows it is theft? Senator Lightfoot interjecting— What a low point this is in Australian gov- Senator BROWN—You will live to re- ernance. What a cheating of the Australian gret this because involved in the process is a people and their principles the two great par- measure of undermining our own nation’s ties in this parliament are involved in. security. If you increase the hostility in a They would not stand up against the Su- neighbour then you increase the insecurity of harto regime when it illegally occupied East yourself. To do so illegally makes it all the Timor and killed hundreds of thousands of worse. East Timorese. Not one of the big parties had There will be questions asked during the the guts to stand up then, not for decades. committee stages today, but if this govern- Now they are moving to thieve this oil and ment acts true to form then it will not answer gas resource which belongs to East Timor, many of those questions. Even if it does and not to this nation. This is theft. How dare this the information adds to the already compel- government and this opposition engage in it. ling, unarguable case against this legislation What a rotten past this is. Where is the dig- and the process it involves, the opposition nity, the decency and the neighbourliness in will go across and vote for this legislation this process? How dare we consider this in with the government. We are going to live the rush that is occurring today. How dare it with this for decades, as I have said, and we happen. What a rotten position this is. It is are going to have to undo it further down the left to the Greens, the Democrats and One line. Woodside might be happy—it is going

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21777 to make millions, and so will its sharehold- this government has let down the people of ers. I will be asking about its contributions to East Timor. We do not disagree with that the parties during the course of the commit- view at all. What we do disagree with is a tee stages. number of assertions that Senator Brown has Let me just finish on the injustice of this made today. whole process. A government member earlier The first proposition concerns the actual referred to the fact that there has been no nature of this debate. Senator Brown has, as I submission from the East Timorese govern- say, in a colourful way broadened out the ment as such to the committee. So we have debate to include a whole range of issues almost no notice, hold the committee over- relating to Australia’s relationship with night, confine it to 1½ hours and then com- Timor Leste. He has, as he is entitled to do, plain when it goes over time. All this for a drawn attention to what he sees as some of committee looking at such an important and the implications of this legislation. He has complex matter as this. The East Timorese not talked about the legislation itself. What government did not appear because it is not he has emphasised is the failure of the Aus- for embassies and governments to appear tralian government to reach agreement on the before committees in cases like this—it is a general issue of the treaty and to ensure that minefield for them. I asked all of the gov- there is appropriate support for the govern- ernment representatives on that committee if ment of Timor Leste. He has further put the they had been down to the East Timorese view that the government of Timor Leste embassy in Canberra. None of them ever had does not agree with this legislation. That is been. One of them thought he knew where it not a statement of fact. was. I could tell them that it was in a disused The reason I put that counter view to you, school building given to the East Timorese Senator Brown, is that the opposition does delegate through the ACT government, be- not rely upon the assertions of the Australian cause the Commonwealth did not provide government on such sensitive matters. The that facility. It has one staff member. Sure, Australian opposition has sought to talk di- there were lots of meetings with Woodside. rectly to the government of Timor Leste, and Sure, lots of East Timorese have been to the the Prime Minister, Mr Alkatiri, spoke with Australian Embassy in Dili over this matter. Mr Rudd and Mr Jull last week. Specific But nobody in government has been down to questions were put on the issue of whether or the Timor Leste embassy in Canberra. In fact not there were problems with the opposition they do not know where it is, in the main. in this country supporting this legislation, That says it all. (Time expired) and the response was no. So we feel that the Senator CARR (Victoria) (11.20 a.m.)— issue of this particular legislation, which Senator Brown has just delivered a highly should be the subject of this debate, is wor- emotional response to this issue. I congratu- thy of support—and I will explain the rea- late him on it. I think these are issues he feels sons for that—and that is the view that the very strongly about and it is appropriate that government of East Timor is putting to us. these issues be put forward in a very forceful We are not relying on hearsay here. We are manner—and Senator Brown has certainly not relying on press reports. We are not even done that today. There is a point of funda- relying on the Australian government. We are mental difference here though. The Labor getting it directly from Dili. Party is supporting this legislation. It is not that we disagree per se with the view that

CHAMBER 21778 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

This is legislation which gives effect to an the arrangements. In my judgment, it has not international unitisation agreement between negotiated in good faith, and now it appears Australia and Timor Leste. This agreement that it is delaying still further the boundary was signed on 6 March 2003 in Dili and negotiations. In this discussion here today we forms part of Australian and Timor Leste have already heard from a number of speak- joint obligations under the Timor Sea Treaty. ers who point to the fact that the Australian This legislation ensures the speedy develop- government has been tardy in the way it has ment of the Greater Sunrise petroleum re- addressed the very basic question of the source, which is a matter of great importance number of meetings that can be called upon to both countries because it provides for the to resolve these issues. Frankly, there is no development of a project which will ensure justification for the six-monthly meetings the significant numbers of jobs, significant infra- government proposes, and I think that is rea- structure development and significant oppor- son for people to argue the case that the gov- tunities both for Australian industry and for ernment has not been negotiating in good the people of Timor Leste. faith. The ratification of this agreement will Unlike the government, Labor are com- provide impetus for further exploration and mitted to good faith negotiations to ensure development in the Timor Sea which is es- the long-term benefits for the people of sential for the sustainability of the Timor Timor Leste. In government, Labor will do Leste state—and it is important for the sus- this in an expedient way to ensure, in accor- tainability of the region, I might suggest. The dance with international law, that our com- development of the Greater Sunrise resource mitments regarding the boundary negotia- will provide a much needed injection of cash tions will be resolved. We think that the flow into Timor Leste. Revenue flow will whole range of issues should be resolved allow for the provision of basic services, in- over the next couple of years. The Timor cluding hospitals, schools and other Leste people have endured many hardships infrastructure. But that alone is not enough. in their independence struggle. These hard- More importantly to the government and to ships are over and they are now entitled to the people of Timor Leste, it goes to the look towards their independence and their broader issue, to which Senator Brown has position within the global community with drawn our attention again today, of the the support of the Australian people. How- maritime boundaries. There are no ever, it strikes me that there are a consider- internationally agreed maritime boundaries able number of challenges that remain for the at the moment, and securing them, we in the people of Timor Leste and its government, Labor Party say, is of great importance to the and there must be a clear priority given by development of the nation of Timor Leste. the Australian government to maintain and The resource assets identified will provide build a sustainable socioeconomic infrastruc- capital and revenue for the rebuilding ture for that country. process and underwrite the financial viability We are not entirely responsible but we of the people of Timor Leste. have a contribution to make there. Labor In contrast to the haste that has been evi- wholeheartedly supports Timor Leste in all dent in the way in which the government has these ongoing challenges: the development sought to pursue this legislation through the of infrastructure, sustainable health and wel- parliament, the government appears not to fare services, balanced economic employ- have any real interest in securing that side of ment opportunities and, obviously, the re-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21779 quirement for the provision of basic services. The legal, administrative and financial Revenue is central to that nation-building framework is of key importance to the viabil- role. You cannot sustain a modern state with- ity of the project. The international unitisa- out adequate independent sources of reve- tion agreement is a critical step in that proc- nue. It strikes me that the exploitation of pe- ess. Ratification of this agreement through troleum resources is one way of facilitating this legislation is therefore critical to the on- that objective. This an area which is rich in going nature of the project. This is why the resources, and it is appropriate that Australia Labor Party will be supporting it. We appre- facilitate the development of those resources. ciate that there are serious questions that This legislation also has important impli- need resolution through a proper legislative cations for Australian industry and represents process. We are rightfully concerned about huge opportunities for the Australian petro- the tardiness of the government—not just in leum industry through the Sunrise joint ven- its relationship with Timor but also in its re- ture project. Woodside have already invested lationship with this parliament. This matter over $200 million in exploration, appraisals has been appallingly handled. How is it that and concept developments for the project. the department can, presumably, allow the The total investment is up to $7 billion for situation to emerge where in the legislative the life of the project. That is a huge invest- program this matter gets shunted back in the ment, and I see that we have an opportunity way that it has been? I trust that the depart- here to ensure—it is the parliament’s obliga- ment was able to provide adequate advice to tion to ensure—that development. In a simi- the government, but I find it extraordinary lar way the development of the North West that circumstances such as these can be al- Shelf petroleum resource has generated lowed to develop to this point. 70,000 direct and indirect jobs since 1986. For the local industry, both in Australia That is an example that can be followed as to and in Timor Leste, the speedy development the opportunities that flow from these sorts of resources means ready and speedy access of ventures, so long as all the other require- to other opportunities in construction and ments for approval processes are met and, of manufacturing and other allied industries. course, the appropriate negotiations occur These opportunities relate both to the on- with various levels of government—and that shore and offshore components of this pro- includes the government of Timor Leste. ject. The construction work force alone is The project also represents a huge invest- likely to peak at around 3,000. I am advised ment in technology. There are opportunities that many of these opportunities will flow here for further advancement in exploration through to opportunities for further devel- technologies. The legislation also represents opment with regard to the training and em- an investment in long-term economic devel- ployment of the Timor Leste people. Fur- opment, which should be able to consolidate thermore, the legislation requires the joint gas markets in Asia and further development venture partners to meet licensing require- of markets in the North American west coast. ments across both the joint petroleum devel- Market negotiations are currently under way opment area and the Australian portions of with the joint venture partners. This is a pro- the project. The requirement will ensure best ject where there is a requirement to provide practice by the parties and the highest occu- some certainty and security for those who are pational health and safety and environmental investing large sums of money. standards. These are important considerations in this legislation. I look forward to

CHAMBER 21780 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 other senators drawing my attention to where is so one-sided that East Timor has threat- that is not occurring. ened to withhold ratification of the Timor Importantly, the legislation we are consid- Sea Treaty with Australia, which was signed ering also includes customs duty concessions to enable the development of these fields. under the Customs Tariff Amendment This treaty provides a legal and financial (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004. The purchase of framework for sharing the enormous poten- material and plant not available in Australia tial revenue from the billions of dollars has always been subject to duty concessions worth of gas and oil in the Timor Sea. But through the enhanced project by-law scheme. the treaty was negotiated under duress. The scheme also requires Australian industry Timor Leste were pressured into signing. participation to be maximised. The Customs They signed believing that we would negoti- Tariff Amendment (Greater Sunrise) Bill ate proper boundaries in good faith. They 2004 means that these consultations would signed on the understanding that we were not be required for the project. That was the friends and that we would sort out the sort of thing we were very concerned about. boundary dispute in good faith. They signed The industry implications of that were mat- knowing that this was virtually their only ters that Mr Jull drew attention to in the other opportunity for real revenue, for a real chamber. The minister, unfortunately, failed chance to earn foreign currency. to provide satisfactory explanations in an- The Australian government now claims swer to our questions. As a result of the fail- that it cannot afford to meet more than once ure to provide that advice to the opposition, every six months, despite Timor Leste wish- this matter had to be pursued through the ing to meet and keep talking each month to Senate processes. It is important that we get the boundary dispute sorted out. The identify that Woodside have provided clear terms of the treaty state that East Timor will and direct assurances on these issues. We receive 90 per cent of the oil and gas revenue will be looking to Woodside to make sure from the small Bayu-Undan gas field. The that those assurances are carried out. These total income from this, once the field is de- assurances of Australian industry participa- veloped, is expected to be around $3 billion. tion are undertakings to maximise local con- However, the terms of the treaty state that tent, and the development has been warmly Timor Leste receives only 18 per cent of the welcomed by the Labor Party. The guarantee revenue from the much larger and more lu- of local content delivers certainty and secu- crative Greater Sunrise field that we are dis- rity for the industry and an ongoing impetus cussing today. The estimated value of this is for further exploration and development. around $30 billion. Timor Leste receives These combined efforts should prove to be of nothing from the Corallina-Laminaria field, ultimate benefit to both the Australian and which is currently providing around $600 Timor Leste people. million in revenue to the Australian govern- Senator LEES (South Australia) (11.34 ment. a.m.)—The legislation before us today, the Obviously, Timor Leste are very pleased Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agreement Im- to receive any revenue from this gas field, plementation Bill 2004 and the Customs Tar- but we should not be happy in settling for so iff Amendment (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004, much of it. Yes, if we include our continental effectively ensures that Australia will have shelf, as has been argued again here today by control over the huge Greater Sunrise gas members of the government, we can get the and oil field in the Timor Sea. The legislation boundary inched out closer and closer, kilo-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21781 metre by kilometre, towards their coastline, Timor Leste, helping them to get books and but this is not the usual method used. This other school equipment and passing on sec- resource is about two-thirds of the way ond-hand clothes. We have people raising across the sea as we head over towards money for the peoples of East Timor with Timor Leste. In other words, it is twice as backyard barbecues and all sorts of other close to them as it is to us. It is highly likely functions. We have aid agencies formally that under international maritime law Timor working in East Timor to make sure that Leste can lay claim to a far greater propor- their basic services, which were largely de- tion of the Timor Sea oil and gas reserves, stroyed during the process of obtaining self- particularly if a median line, a middle line, is determination, are back and running—even drawn equidistant from both countries— basic infrastructure like roads that need to be certainly much more than the 18 per cent rebuilt. they have had to settle for—and we would Australians obviously want the govern- get a lot less than the 82 per cent that we ment to maximise opportunities for Austra- have basically pressured them into agreeing lians. We want money, we want income to to. provide Australians with services. But, given But Australia has ruled out the option of the details of what this treaty actually means being involved under international maritime and what we are doing today, I believe most law. We have actually withdrawn from the Australians would want both houses of this compulsory maritime boundary arbitration parliament to be far more aware of the needs mechanisms of the UN Convention on the of the East Timorese and prepared to share Law of the Sea and the International Court of far more fairly the income from this very Justice. Effectively, this has prevented East valuable resource. They have virtually no Timor from continuing the process, from other significant opportunity to earn foreign seeking an independent resolution under in- currency. They do not have a lot of options. ternational law, and control has been handed To suggest that we will still keep taking care to us—and we are in a far more powerful of them, that we will still keep giving them position—over how the boundaries are going foreign aid, misses the point. They will be to be determined and how the revenue is go- able to look after themselves far better if we ing to be divided up. are able to ensure that they get a far fairer I argue very strongly that Australia should share of this tremendous resource. not be acting in self-interest in this issue. We This boundary dispute is something that surely must consider what is fair and right. I absolutely has to be settled. If we simply believe, as a country, we have an interna- cannot agree then it has to go to international tional obligation—and surely a moral obliga- arbitration and we have to put aside a large tion—to assist Timor Leste whenever we percentage of the revenue—40 or 50 per can. We are neighbours, we are supposedly cent—into a trust fund. As a number of peo- friends, and this is certainly not how you ple have suggested—and I was able to listen treat your friends. Australians have put their to some of the committee hearing on Mon- lives at risk in East Timor to help the East day—a logical way to sort this out is to let Timorese get self-determination, and now a Woodside go ahead. They should be given wide range of Australians are helping in a the green light to operate this field. It is not vast array of ways as the people of East their problem. It is not up to them how the Timor struggle to get basic services. We have revenue that they provide to governments is Australian schools linking up with schools in shared. It is up to government, particularly

CHAMBER 21782 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 the government of Australia, to make sure tariff bill provides for the duty-free entry into that the income generated from this resource the Greater Sunrise unitisation area of all is shared fairly between us and East Timor. goods and equipment required for the petro- As I have said, this is not an issue that we leum activities. The Greater Sunrise petro- can quickly deal with in this place and hope leum resource comprises the Sunrise and the it will go away. I am very disappointed that Troubadour deposits and, as we know, lies in the government is pressing ahead today to the Timor Sea. That is approximately 500 deal with this legislation so soon after the kilometres north-west of Darwin. So the de- committee hearing and without, I believe, a velopment of this resource, the debate we proper and adequate airing in the Australian have about this resource and bills such as community. Timor Leste is one of the poor- these are of utmost importance to the North- est countries on this planet and we are one of ern Territory but in particular to the city of the wealthiest. While of course we want to Darwin. maximise our wealth, it is our responsibility The field straddles the border of the joint to make sure that Timor Leste receives its petroleum development area, which is the fair share of this resource. I close by saying area of shared jurisdiction between Australia that, on this issue, Australia is simply being and East Timor established by the Timor Sea greedy. Treaty, and an area of sole Australian juris- Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) diction located within the adjacent Northern (11.41 a.m.)—I rise this morning to provide Territory area. I understand that a witness some comments on the Greater Sunrise Uni- who appeared before the Joint Standing tisation Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 Committee on Treaties, which first looked at and the Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater this last year, proclaimed that this resource: Sunrise) Bill 2004. These bills put in place ... is a world-class petroleum resource containing the framework that is necessary to give effect an estimated 8.4 trillion cubic feet of natural gas to the agreement between Australia and the and 295 million barrels of condensate. It is esti- Democratic Republic of Timor Leste relating mated that 20.1 per cent of these resources lie to the unitisation of the Sunrise and the within the JPDA ... and 79.9 per cent lie outside it. Greater Sunrise petroleum fields. We know that this agreement was signed in Dili on As I said last year, Australia and East Timor 6 March last year and that it governs the uni- agreed to the unitisation of this petroleum tisation of the Greater Sunrise petroleum resource. Under the unitisation agreement, resources. Ratification of the agreement by East Timor’s share of the Greater Sunrise both Australia and East Timor is required to field is calculated by reference to the agreed provide industry—and, in particular, Wood- formula that applies to the sharing of the side—with the certainty that is needed to JPDA, where East Timor has title to 90 per proceed to develop this major resource. At cent of the petroleum resource. There has this time, though, I am not aware whether been much debate about this; I will perhaps East Timor has ratified, or when it will ratify, go into the sea boundaries a bit later. In ef- this agreement. fect, this means that under this development and as the Timor Sea boundaries currently The Greater Sunrise Unitisation Agree- stand East Timor receives 90 per cent of the ment Implementation Bill puts into place the 20.1 per cent of the Greater Sunrise field that administrative arrangements for the devel- lies within the JPDA. Australia’s share is the opment of this resource, and the customs 10 per cent remainder of the 20.1 per cent

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21783 from the JPDA—the 79.9 per cent of the really been no reason given for there being Greater Sunrise field outside of the JPDA. such a rush with this. We agree with other Allowing for the calculations involved, this parties and Independent senators in this means that Australia’s actual share of the chamber that the process has been totally Greater Sunrise field is around 82 per cent. inadequate. Nevertheless, the bills are before The Greater Sunrise unitisation agreement us today. These bills need to be supported so will be ratified by Australia and East Timor that administrative arrangements can start to once both countries have put in place the be put in place. domestic arrangements required to enable There have been some objections to the them to fulfil their obligations under the passage of the bills and these were raised in agreement. The bills before us, the Greater evidence to the committee on Monday night. Sunrise Unitisation Agreement Implementa- It is not the first time they have been raised. tion Bill 2004 and the Customs Tariff Unless this government deals with some of Amendment (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004, these issues appropriately, it will not be the allow Australia to do exactly that. last time they are raised. In each case, the We know that there have been many ob- objections reflected concerns not primarily jections to these bills. Those objections have with the content of the bills but with the con- been raised by the Democrats, by the Greens tent of the agreement, with the processes or and even by Senator Harris and Senator with the relationship that this government Lees. Let me say categorically that this party fails to have with the government of East does not resile from the fact that we support Timor. The concerns that were raised in rela- the concerns that have been raised here this tion to these bills go to two issues, though morning, particularly by Senator Bob Brown there are a number of other issues that I be- and Senator Natasha Stott Despoja, about the lieve have not been adequately addressed. haste with which these bills have been dealt Predominantly, the groups that appeared in this parliament—they were rushed through before the committee on Wednesday night— a couple of weeks ago in the House of Rep- that is, Australians for a Free East Timor and resentatives—and about the demand that the the Timor Sea Justice Campaign—had con- Senate deal with these bills within 24 hours. cerns about whether the Australian govern- The bills were in fact sent to the Senate Eco- ment has negotiated and intends to negotiate nomics Legislation Committee. They had a in good faith with the democratic govern- public hearing on Monday night. We heard ment of Timor Leste in relation to the uniti- today that some people only received the sation agreement with East Timor. The Timor final printed copies of the report late last Sea Justice Campaign suggested that Austra- night or this morning. lia had coerced the government of East The process has not been adequate. It has Timor into signing the agreement by refusing been totally inadequate. It is not good to ratify the Timor Sea Treaty until East enough. There have been no reasons given Timor signed the Greater Sunrise unitisation by the government as to why they would agreement. The discourse between Minister want to rush such legislation through this Downer and that country is on the record. I parliament in such a short period of time. spoke about that matter last year when the One can only assume that it is because they agreement was first put through this parlia- want this legislation in place before negotia- ment. tions on the Timor Sea boundaries begin around 25 April, as I understand it. There has

CHAMBER 21784 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Groups like Australians for a Free East ment, perhaps it will be no longer a priority Timor have continually raised concerns for this government to negotiate the bounda- about this country’s commitment to reaching ries in good faith or to do so in any sort of agreement with East Timor about the mari- haste. But we will be watching closely and time boundary between the two countries—a continuing to ask questions about that to en- boundary which is in dispute. This morning sure that it takes place. we heard Senator O’Brien quite clearly out- Representations made to me point to the line that the government have said they are concerns that even the Congress in America only prepared to meet with the East Timorese has in relation to Australia’s treatment of government every six months, not each East Timor. In fact I understand that on month as requested by the Timorese. There- 9 March members of the United States fore, one has to wonder what emphasis or House of Representatives called on Australia priority this government puts on it. As was to fairly negotiate its maritime boundary said so eloquently this morning, this is one of with neighbouring East Timor within three to the richest governments in the world negoti- five years. I understand that in a letter to the ating with the poorest country in the world. It Prime Minister, John Howard, 53 members seems that we do not have the inclination, of Congress called on Australia ‘to move time, priority or commitment to meet more seriously and expeditiously in negotiations regularly. I fail to understand how that can be with East Timor to establish a fair, perma- the case. We ought to ensure not only that we nent maritime boundary and an equitable meet as often as the East Timorese govern- sharing of oil and gas resources in the Timor ment require us to but that we make it one of Sea’. the highest priorities if we are really serious So this is being debated in America and it about trying to provide a better outcome for would seem that, if America thinks we ought East Timor in this matter. to do it, this government should probably be The Australian government has withdrawn bound to take notice. That seems to be the its agreement for the dispute with East Timor track record of this government in the last 18 to be arbitrated through the dispute resolu- months. It is of concern that the rest of world tion mechanisms of the International Court is watching what we do and how we treat the of Justice and the international treaty on the poorest country in the world. We have the law of the sea. The government are not only capacity to expedite the negotiations on the fast-tracking negotiations with East Timor on maritime boundary and the Timor Sea but we the boundaries but also saying, ‘Where we do not seem to have the will, the time or the have disagreement, we’re not going to enter commitment to make it a priority. The world the international arena. We don’t want to is watching, and currently it is an appalling play by those rules. We’re not going to join situation. that court. We’re not interested in resolving The Australian Labor Party agree with the the dispute that way.’ Democrats, the Greens and the Independent According to Oxfam Community Aid senators in voicing their concern about that Abroad, although states are obliged under position. We agree that it is not good enough international law to refrain from exploiting to be holding up this country and ensuring resources in areas of overlapping claims, this that we get a greater slice of the cake when government has in the past year issued two what underpins the whole thing are the mari- new permits for exploration in the disputed time boundaries in the area in which this re- area. Once these bills go through the parlia-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21785 source sits. We believe there is a need to go negotiations relating to the permanent mari- ahead and negotiate a permanent maritime time boundary between Australia and East boundary between Australia and East Timor Timor, but we do not believe that this gov- so that, at the end of the day, East Timor gets ernment has the will, the inclination or the a better share of the deal. commitment to do this in good faith or in a The Labor Party have a long history of as- timely manner. We have pledged that in gov- sisting the East Timorese. We warmly wel- ernment—which will not be far away, by the come Timor Leste into the community of looks of things—we will be committed to nations, as we have done from day one, and negotiating with the East Timorese people to recognise the progress achieved by the East ensure that that is the outcome. Timorese people and government in working There are two other matters that I want to to build a viable, sustainable, independent raise quickly this morning. One that has been and sovereign state. We recognise that the raised in this debate is the original lack of status of Timor Leste as an independent na- commitment to ensuring that there is Austra- tion amongst all others is a tribute to the re- lian industry participation in the resource solve of the East Timorese people. projects in this area. That is a concern time Senator Kemp—And the leadership of and time again when we look at the major John Howard. What about Whitlam, Hawke developments that are occurring out of Dar- and Keating? It is an absolute disgrace. win and involving the city of Darwin and in this instance involving Australian industry Senator CROSSIN—In Darwin we have participation. It is good to see that Woodside a very large community of people who have has agreed to write to the minister commit- come from East Timor and chosen to make ting, as the operator of the Sunrise gas pro- Darwin their home who still have a number ject, to maximising local industry participa- of relatives in East Timor. Can I just say to tion in the project and undertaking industry the minister interjecting that, if the govern- consultative processes of the kind normally ment were really serious about looking after required of projects under the Enhanced Pro- East Timorese people and their relatives, by ject By-Laws Scheme. now it would have created a special migration visa to allow those who are claiming We believe that this is a good outcome. It refugee status to be permanent citizens of has perhaps taken the economics committee this country. Instead they have had to obtain inquiry on Monday night to achieve that and that permanency little by little, in a trickle to push the point, to push the envelope. I effect—but that is an issue for another day. think it reflects a solution by agreement without the need for legislative amendment We believe that it is in the best interests of or changes to the IUA, which would have East Timor and Australia to facilitate the pas- required treaty negotiations. I notice that sage of these bills, which would implement paragraph 3.22 of the Senate report says: arrangements to which both countries have already agreed. In this way the Sunrise fields ... the Committee noted assurances received from can be developed and East Timor can com- Woodside Energy Ltd ... that its practice of maximising local content in its projects would be mence benefiting from the job opportunities ‘unchanged by the Customs Tariff Amendment and the revenue that will be generated from (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004’. their development. We are satisfied from our We welcome that announcement and we will examination of these bills that there is noth- be working with Woodside to ensure that ing in them which prejudices in any way the

CHAMBER 21786 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 industry participation in this process is the establishment of Team NT have been maximised. diligently working with Clare Martin and the Finally, one cannot help but make a com- Northern Territory government to put a case ment about my colleagues from the Northern for gas onshore. Dave Malone, Bruce Fadelli Territory in this place. This is the second and Steve Margetig in particular have been time we have had bills relating to the Timor outstanding. Many others have been in- Sea and the Greater Sunrise resource coming volved as well, and of course the work of the before this parliament. As I said when I Northern Territory Chamber of Commerce spoke about last year’s bills, I am very dis- deserves a great deal of credit. In a speech appointed not to see Senator Scullion, my that Clare Martin gave some months ago she fellow senator from the Northern Territory, reiterated that these people have lobbied on the speakers list for the government. This their national business groups, they have is the second opportunity he has had to es- seen federal ministers and they have kept up pouse the benefits of this resource for this a relentless but appropriate campaign which country, for the city of Darwin and for the has been of great assistance to the efforts of people of the Northern Territory, and he has the Northern Territory government to get gas failed to take the opportunity. In the House onshore. Clare Martin has done an east coast of Representatives we had Mr Tollner es- roadshow, winning support from influential pousing what I believe are close to mytho- bodies for gas onshore. Advertisements have logical statements in relation to what is hap- been placed in the Australian Financial Re- pening there. It is one thing to come into this view and the Australian leading to strong place and talk about a bill; it is another to be interest from members of the public. A busi- fairly loose with the truth, but that is the ness group has mailed out a synopsis of its wont of members of this government from report and has received strong support from time to time. Mr Tollner said on 10 March 450 Territory businesses. A major outcome 2004, just some weeks ago, in relation to the of Team NT’s work was the announcement Northern Territory government: by the producers of a review of the domestic gas case. There has been much done in pur- They are doing nothing to progress the needs for onshore gas ... suing this. (Time expired) He also went on to say in relation to the Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (12.02 Northern Territory government: p.m.)—I rise to make One Nation’s contribution to the debate on the Greater Sunrise They are happy to settle for a floating LNG plant which will see all of our gas exported overseas. Unitisation Agreement Implementation Bill 2004. What we are addressing needs to be Nothing could be further from the truth— clarified. The name of this bill does not ar- nothing at all. I am not sure who does Mr ticulate to a person in the street what it is Tollner’s research for him. I doubt very about. It is clearly about the division of pe- much that he does any of his own. I doubt troleum resources in the Timor Sea. The very much that he even stands up for his own Greater Sunrise location in some cases falls electorate with statements such as that. within 40 kilometres of the East Timor coast- But what an indictment, not so much of line and lies approximately 450 kilometres the Northern Territory government—you from the Australian coastline. would expect people like that to play politics If we look at the history, we see that Aus- with this issue—but of the business commu- tralia was a very strong participant in estab- nity in the Northern Territory, who through lishing the international law of the sea. Aus-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21787 tralia’s participation goes right back to the Act—an American act—intentional interfer- early stages of the development of that ence with a contract, intentional interference agreement. However, in March last year Aus- with prospective economic advantage, unjust tralia withdrew its support for that agree- enrichment and unfair competition. The pri- ment, and that is consistent with the time mary action is, as I said, between Oceanic lines that we see in the development of the Exploration and ConocoPhillips, but co- Greater Sunrise issue. If we were to follow joined to that there are approximately 20 the basic intention of the international law of other Phillips companies that are all Austra- the sea, the resource would fall totally within lian registered. Also cojoined in this is the the jurisdiction of East Timor. Statements Timor Sea designated authority for the Joint have been made here this morning in relation Petroleum Development Area—that is an to the division of the resource rental taxes unincorporated entity—and the Timor Gap and other revenues from the resource and Joint Authority for the zone of cooperation, how Australia is to ensure that 90 per cent of an entity organised pursuant to the Timor this is transferred to East Timor. However, a Gap Treaty. briefing note has been provided to us by I will look at both of those entities. Firstly Woodside. Woodside’s participation in this I will look at the Timor Gap Joint Authority program is in relation to concessions that for the zone of cooperation. It was estab- they have in the area relating to two explora- lished pursuant to article 7 of the treaty be- tion permits. Woodside says: tween Australia and the Republic of Indone- The project will generate estimated govern- sia on the zone of cooperation in an area be- ment revenues of A$10 billion, to be shared between the Indonesian province of East Timor tween Australia and Timor-Leste over the 30-40 at that time and Northern Australia. That is year life of the project. It is not possible to be known as the Timor Gap Treaty. The joint absolutely accurate about royalty streams or in- authority has established a banking relation- comes from the project since contracts are yet to be signed and the project is yet to be completed. ship with the Chase Manhattan Bank in New York; it maintains and controls deposits and Even Woodside acknowledges that we can- flowthrough accounts with the Chase Man- not accurately say what Australia’s percent- hattan Bank in New York; and it directs those age of the royalties will be and what will go entities that owe money to the joint authority to East Timor. One Nation wants to put it for activities in the zone of cooperation of very clearly on the record that we believe the Timor Gap to deposit or transfer such that all funds from this resource should go funds by wire to its Chase Manhattan Bank directly to East Timor. account. So the joint authority, which is an The other concern that One Nation has is organisation between Australia and the Re- in relation to a current court action that the public of Indonesia, does not even house its Australian government now finds itself tied banking in Australia. up in in the District of Columbia. The action Secondly, I will look at the designated au- is between Oceanic Exploration Company, a thority. This is the Timor Sea designated au- Delaware corporation, and ConocoPhillips thority for the Joint Petroleum Development Incorporated, also a Delaware corporation. If Area, and it is referred to in this action as the we look very clearly at the complaint in rela- designated authority. It is an unincorporated tion to this case we see that it is listed in entity established by the joint commission various forms such as violation of the Rack- pursuant to article 6 of the Timor Sea Treaty eteering Influence and Corrupt Organization between the government of East Timor and

CHAMBER 21788 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 the Australian government. The designated tiations with Indonesia, and on 17 May 1971 authority is a customer of the Chase Manhat- Australia and Indonesia signed the Australia- tan Bank in New York and the designated Indonesia continental shelf agreement which authority maintains and controls both deposi- delineated the maritime border between Aus- tory and flowthrough accounts with Chase tralia and Indonesia. Because East Timor was Manhattan Bank in New York. The desig- a Portuguese province the agreement did not nated authority directs firms that owe money address a maritime border in the East Timor to it for activities in the Joint Petroleum De- Sea between East Timor and Australia. velopment Area of the Timor Gap to transfer Therefore the boundary line under this such funds by wire to its Chase Manhattan agreement between Australia and Indonesia Bank accounts. had a gap for the area between East Timor I would like to make a reference to an and Australia. The gap in the boundary line amendment that Senator Natasha Stott De- has come to be known as the Timor Gap. spoja has moved. It highlights the impor- That is the history of this whole East Timor tance of those funds being held in a trust ac- sea resource. Australia, I believe possibly for count until this issue is sorted out. I will now the first time, has been named in a court ac- go to the history of Oceanic Exploration, the tion in relation to intentional interference company that is bringing this action. The with a contract, unjust enrichment and unfair saga goes right back to 1642, when Portugal competition. colonised East Timor. Oceanic Exploration, What are the options for Australia? I beat the end of 1968, applied to the Portuguese lieve, firstly, that they may try to challenge government for a concession in the East the jurisdiction of the actual case, but it will Timor area, and that was granted. Oceanic be a little difficult because the appellant, the Exploration undertook extensive research plaintiff, is the Oceanic Exploration Com- and study, including the gathering of seismic pany, which is a Delaware corporation, information and the preparation of detailed clearly American. The defendant that is prospect maps for exploration and drilling in named is ConocoPhillips Inc., also a Dela- the East Timor area. ware corporation. Again, it is very difficult to During that period Australia began to challenge the jurisdiction of this case. Sec- adopt the position that it was entitled to the ondly, Australia could file a defence. Thirdly, possible hydrocarbon reserves in the East they could cross-claim. This case is actually Timor Sea off the East Timor coast. Australia proceeding. It is in the preliminary direction took this position, despite the fact that the hearing stage and it is going forward. It begs Geneva Convention on the Law of the Sea this question: while there is a legal case afoot codified the principle that maritime bounda- based on the ‘international law of the sea’, ries should be an equal distance between the why is Australia pushing this legislation respective countries’ shorelines— through with undue haste? It is because, in approximately 300 miles off each country’s one way, this case puts in question the leases coast. Australia argued instead that the divi- that Australia has granted over this area since sion for recognition of the exercise of domin- 1976. ion by Portugal and Australia should be I am not going to pre-empt the outcomes drawn a mere 40 miles off the East Timor of a law case in America, but if they were to coast, which would leave discovered oil and find in favour of the plaintiff then Australia gas reserves in the possession of Australia. would find itself in a difficult situation, be- At the same time Australia conducted nego- cause the next step, obviously, is a challenge

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21789 to Australia’s ability to grant the very explo- We condemn the government for dragging ration licences that this agreement is based out the negotiations on the maritime bound- on. That is the issue that One Nation brings ary issue and we support the Democrat call to this debate. It is not whether the resource for the government to negotiate expedi- or the taxes and revenues from this resource tiously and in good faith. Under a Labor should be divided and in what particular per- government, the Democrat call for moneys centage. One Nation questions whether we and interest from Greater Sunrise to be held should be progressing this legislation while in escrow would be totally unnecessary be- this court case is afoot. The outcome of this cause we will negotiate in good faith with court case will end up having a profound Timor Leste and we will do all that we can to effect one way or another on these agree- settle the maritime boundary issue expedi- ments. It is with these closing comments that tiously. As the committee noted, there is pro- One Nation places clearly on the record that vision in the unitisation agreement for either we will be opposing the legislation. country to request a review of the production Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (12.18 sharing formula, and for the formula to be p.m.)—In terms of the Democrat amend- altered by agreement between Australia and ment, while Labor has some sympathy with Timor Leste. Accordingly, Labor will not be the sentiments of the Democrats on this is- supporting the second reading amendment of sue, these bills, the Greater Sunrise Unitisa- the Democrats. tion Agreement Implementation Bill 2004 Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special and the Customs Tariff Amendment (Greater Minister of State) (12.20 p.m.)—I thank Sunrise) Bill 2004, relate simply to the im- honourable senators for their contribution to plementation of matters already agreed be- these important bills, the Greater Sunrise tween Australia and Timor Leste. Therefore, Unitisation Agreement Implementation Bill only those matters that are agreed should be 2004 and the Customs Tariff Amendment included. Giving effect to those matters is (Greater Sunrise) Bill 2004. I welcome the essential to clear the way for the develop- comments from the opposition. I note the ment of the Greater Sunrise resource so that opposition’s support for the legislation, albeit revenue can start flowing to East Timor— that, in the other place, the member for Lin- where it is desperately needed to rebuild the giari made some inappropriate comments, I country—and to Australia. would suggest, in relation to his anti- In government, Labor will of course nego- business stance. But we will let that go tiate expeditiously and in good faith the per- through to the keeper. I simply say that, if he manent delimitation of maritime boundaries wants to be shadow resources spokesman, with the Democratic Republic of Timor the way to develop resources within this Leste, in full accordance with international country and within our economic jurisdiction law and all its applications, including the is to have a good relationship with those United Nations Convention on the Law of companies and enterprises that seek to de- the Sea. In the past, we have noted with ex- velop them. treme concern the government’s decision to These bills implement an agreement be- withdraw from the jurisdiction of the Inter- tween Australia and East Timor to develop national Court of Justice. This has had the and commercialise the Sunrise and Trouba- consequence that neither Australia nor Timor dour petroleum fields in the Timor Sea as a Leste now recognises its jurisdiction on such single unit. These fields, known as the matters. Greater Sunrise petroleum resource, straddle

CHAMBER 21790 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 the border between the Joint Petroleum De- Area. The Greater Sunrise unitisation agree- velopment Area established by the Timor Sea ment being implemented by this bill consoli- Treaty and an area of Australian jurisdiction. dates these credentials. Maritime boundary Putting in place the legislative framework for discussions are in progress between Australia the unit development of Greater Sunrise will and East Timor, but nothing in the Greater contribute significantly to investor cer- Sunrise unitisation agreement or in this im- tainty—a necessary precondition for the de- plementation bill allows either nation to use velopment of the resource. the agreement to support its boundary Development of Greater Sunrise will pro- claims. These are separate issues. The Aus- vide substantial benefits to both Australia tralian government is pleased to honour its and East Timor. From development will flow agreement with East Timor by making legis- investment, exports, employment and reve- lative provision for its implementation. The nue. Development can also be expected to government looks forward to ratifying the enhance the Timor Sea as a destination for agreement when East Timor’s implementa- exploration activity, to the benefit of both tion measures are also in place. The bill to nations, particularly East Timor. I am par- implement the unitisation of the Greater Sun- ticularly pleased to note that the economic rise resource brings closer the day when Aus- development of the Northern Territory will tralia and East Timor can announce the ex- be greatly assisted by the development of the pected commencement of petroleum produc- Greater Sunrise project. Senator Nigel Scul- tion from Greater Sunrise. lion from the Northern Territory has always I now seek to join issue with some of the championed the interests of the Northern matters raised by honourable senators during Territory and this project, because of the the debate. There has been some suggestion benefits that will flow not only to the people that there has not been the degree of consul- of East Timor but to the Territory itself. tation or meetings that would have been de- This year sees the first phase of petroleum sirable. I indicate to the Senate that since the production from the Bayu-Undan field in the signing of the unitisation agreement by both Joint Petroleum Development Area. Further countries on 6 March 2003, approximately development of that project, which includes 12 months ago, the Australian government construction of a liquefied natural gas plant has been in dialogue with the government of near Darwin, together with Greater Sunrise, East Timor with regard to the implementa- will consolidate Darwin’s position as a major tion of the unitisation agreement and the oil and gas centre. I know that prospect ex- Timor Sea Treaty, including those with the cites not only Senator Nigel Scullion but also Australian Embassy in Dili. Since that time David Tollner, the member for Solomon. the records of the Department of Industry, This government has made economic devel- Tourism and Resources show that there has opment in the Territory a high priority, as been regular contact with East Timorese offi- demonstrated by its support for the Alice cials on a range of matters relating to petro- Springs to Darwin railway. leum activities in the Timor Sea, including Sunrise unitisation. Since that date there The credentials of Australia and East have been at least 10 meetings. These have Timor to act in cooperation were established been held in Dili, Darwin and Canberra, and with the ratification of the Timor Sea Treaty, there have been telephone conferences. In which governs the development of the re- addition, there have been numerous email sources of the Joint Petroleum Development and telephone contacts. The Joint Standing

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21791

Committee on Treaties processes on the uni- a trust account. The unitisation agreement tisation agreement were commenced in May signed by both countries provides an agreed 2003 and hearings were held in Canberra on method for allocating the revenues and we 23 June 2003. The treaties committee re- are seeking to simply implement the agree- ported on 19 August 2003. ment. I turn to the issue of East Timor’s mari- Then there is the issue of the legal basis of time boundary claims. Australia does not East Timor’s claims. In Australia’s view, in- accept East Timor’s claims to areas to the ternational law does not require a state to east and west of the Joint Petroleum Devel- cease petroleum operations in an area simply opment Area, which include the Laminaria because another state subsequently makes an and Corallina oilfields to the west and part of overlapping ambit claim to sovereign rights Greater Sunrise to the east. It is the govern- over that area. The issue of legal action being ment’s view that these deposits are within taken by Oceanic Exploration has been areas of the continental shelf over which raised. The government stands by the actions Australia has sole sovereign rights. Never- Australia has taken with respect to the explo- theless, we are committed to negotiating a ration and development of the resources of permanent maritime boundary between Aus- the Timor Sea and refutes any allegation of tralia and East Timor. It is an important corrupt practices on its part. Any claims by matter and precedent indicates that such a Oceanic against Australia will be strenuously process can take some considerable time. defended. Nevertheless, following scoping talks with The issue of Woodside’s local industry East Timor on 12 November 2003, some four participation plan has been raised. The gov- months ago, it was established that formal ernment welcomes Woodside’s commitment negotiating rounds would be held twice to encouraging participation by both Austra- yearly starting in April 2004—that is, next lian and Timor Leste industry in the devel- month. It is nothing out of the ordinary for opment of the Greater Sunrise resource. The maritime boundary negotiations to occur in preparation of a local industry participation half-yearly time frames; given the complex- plan similar to that required under the gov- ity of the issues as outlined in the committee ernment’s new enhanced project by-law report, it would be unrealistic to expect scheme will increase the benefits that flow otherwise. from the project to both Timor Leste and I turn to the issue of East Timor’s claims Australia. But the government could not to revenues from petroleum activities outside force the preparation of such a plan because the Joint Petroleum Development Area. We Timor Leste insisted that there be duty-free are aware of East Timor’s claims to revenues entry of petroleum production related goods from petroleum fields lying to the west of the into the Greater Sunrise area. Joint Petroleum Development Area. How- I have already referred to the issue of con- ever, the government does not accept that sultation, but I amplify that by noting that East Timor has jurisdiction over any of the Senator Brandis, Chairman of the Economics deposits in the claim area and rejects any Legislation Committee, which looked into inference that petroleum companies—or for this bill, noted in his report that the bill was that matter, as Senator Brown claims, the referred to the committee on 10 March. The Australian government—are operating ille- committee received submissions from four gally. The suggestion has been made that the non-government organisations, four private Greater Sunrise revenue should be placed in

CHAMBER 21792 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 individuals and Woodside. He emphasised AYES that all these were considered by the commit- Allison, L.F. * Brown, B.J. tee, notwithstanding that they did not all ap- Cherry, J.C. Greig, B. pear before the committee at the hearing. He Harris, L. Lees, M.H. stated that this response demonstrated that Murray, A.J.M. Nettle, K. the time frame did not prevent interested Ridgeway, A.D. Stott Despoja, N. bodies or individuals from making their NOES views known. Additionally, an invitation was Abetz, E. Barnett, G. made to the Timor Leste embassy in Can- Bishop, T.M. Boswell, R.L.D. berra, advising them of the hearing and invit- Brandis, G.H. Buckland, G. ing them to participate. Calvert, P.H. Campbell, G. Chapman, H.G.P. Colbeck, R. Finally, I turn to the International Court of Collins, J.M.A. Conroy, S.M. Justice issues. The government’s position is Cook, P.F.S. Crossin, P.M. that maritime boundaries are best settled by Denman, K.J. Eggleston, A. negotiation, not by reference to third party Ferguson, A.B. Forshaw, M.G. dispute settlement. Indeed, domestically, Hill, R.M. Hogg, J.J. Johnston, D. Kirk, L. more and more we are seeing a trend away Lightfoot, P.R. Ludwig, J.W. from litigation—quite properly—and toward Macdonald, J.A.L. Mackay, S.M. trying to have negotiated outcomes and re- Mason, B.J. McGauran, J.J.J. * sults. I would have thought that that being McLucas, J.E. Murphy, S.M. done on an international level would be wel- O’Brien, K.W.K. Payne, M.A. comed by most Australians. Consistent with Ray, R.F. Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. Sherry, N.J. this, the government has placed a condition Stephens, U. Tchen, T. on its acceptance of compulsory jurisdiction Watson, J.O.W. Webber, R. under the so-called optional clause of the Wong, P. International Court of Justice. It has also en- * denotes teller tered a reservation in respect of the dispute Question negatived. resolution procedures under UNCLOS. This Original question put: is consistent with international law. I thank honourable senators for their contributions to That these bills be now read a second time. the second reading debate and I commend The Senate divided. [12.40 p.m.] the bill to the Senate. (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul Question put: Calvert) That the amendment (Senator Stott De- Ayes………… 43 spoja’s) be agreed to. Noes………… 11 The Senate divided. [12.36 p.m.] Majority……… 32 (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul Calvert) AYES Ayes………… 10 Abetz, E. Barnett, G. Bishop, T.M. Boswell, R.L.D. Noes………… 41 Brandis, G.H. Buckland, G. Majority……… 31 Calvert, P.H. Campbell, G. Chapman, H.G.P. Colbeck, R. Collins, J.M.A. Conroy, S.M. Cook, P.F.S. Crossin, P.M.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21793

Denman, K.J. Eggleston, A. use of market power provision of the Trade Ferguson, A.B. Forshaw, M.G. Practices Act. The Senate committee has Harradine, B. Hill, R.M. unanimously recommended reform to section Hogg, J.J. Kirk, L. 46 to clarify both the Boral and the Rural Lightfoot, P.R. Ludwig, J.W. Macdonald, J.A.L. Mackay, S.M. Press decisions. Mason, B.J. McGauran, J.J.J. * This senate report is also important be- McLucas, J.E. Murphy, S.M. cause it confirms, in a unanimous decision, O’Brien, K.W.K. Payne, M.A. that the Dawson review recommendation on Ray, R.F. Santoro, S. collective negotiations by the means of noti- Scullion, N.G. Sherry, N.J. Stephens, U. Tchen, T. fication should be implemented. The review Tierney, J.W. Troeth, J.M. received important input from all small busi- Watson, J.O.W. Webber, R. ness sectors, which are to be congratulated Wong, P. on their positive approach and now on their NOES united response to the outcome of the report. Allison, L.F. * Bartlett, A.J.J. Small business are also to be congratulated Brown, B.J. Cherry, J.C. for their efforts in combining under several Greig, B. Harris, L. industry groupings to promote their cause. Lees, M.H. Murray, A.J.M. Submissions were received from groupings Nettle, K. Ridgeway, A.D. representing most small business sectors: Stott Despoja, N. pharmacies, independent grocers, retailers, * denotes teller panel beaters, the motor trades, liquor retail- Question agreed to. ers, newsagencies and others. I have spoken Bills read a second time. directly to the pharmacists and the grocers MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST and they are very happy with the recommendations. The PRESIDENT—Order! It being almost 12.45 p.m., I call on matters of public inter- This report is of special importance be- est. cause of the continued significance of small business to the Australian economy, particu- Small Business: Trade Practices Act larly in rural and regional towns and dis- Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— tricts, where they are often the mainstay of Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) local communities as an employer and as a (12.44 p.m.)—The report released last month contributor to local life. I am pleased to note by the Senate’s Economics References that small business have come out strongly in Committee, entitled The effectiveness of the support of the recommendations of the gov- Trade Practices Act 1974 in protecting small ernment senator’s report. Firstly, Senator business, followed on from the Dawson re- Brandis’s report covers reforms to the misuse view, which had been conducted prior to the of market power provision in section 46. To High Court’s decision in the Boral case. Al- quote Senator Brandis’s recommendation: though the Boral decision was considered by .. there is a clear case for legislative reform of the members of the Dawson review just prior s.46 ... Boral, have narrowed the already limited to the release of their report, this Senate re- operation of s.46, and ... restricted to an undesir- view is the first to also take into account the able degree its capacity to deal with anticompeti- views of the public following the High tive conduct, in particular ... ‘predatory pricing’. Court’s Boral and Rural Press decisions. At Section 46 needs reform to: the core of the report is section 46, the mis-

CHAMBER 21794 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

... ensure that the Act achieves its core objective munity in relation to section 46 is to reverse of promoting competition. the High Court decision in the Rural Press The report from all senators pointed out how case, which resulted in a narrowing of sec- this section in particular had strayed from the tion 46. All agreed with the ACCC proposal original intention of the legislature when it for reform to cover the situation where a was introduced in 1986. Support for this corporation with substantial power in one point of view and for the need for change to market takes advantage of that power to en- reflect the intentions of the original purpose gage in proscribed conduct in another mar- of the section was agreed to by the Chairman ket. Another important remedy under consid- of the ACCC, Graeme Samuel, in the sub- eration is for actions brought by small busi- mission from the ACCC. This has resulted in ness under section 51—actions which are a a unanimous agreement that section 46 must whole new remedy provided by the coalition be available as a remedy for small business government. in a form that reflects the intentions of the Following the Reid report, Senator Bran- 1986 test, when the test was changed from dis has recommended a lifting of the statu- ‘substantial control of a market’ to ‘substan- tory limit of the transaction from $3 million tial degree of power in a market’. The then to $10 million. Small business and farmers Attorney-General, Lionel Bowen, said: have, for many years, needed a speedy proc- ... an effective provision controlling misuse of ess to allow them to negotiate on a collective market power is most important to ensure that basis with their large customers and proces- small businesses are given a measure of protec- sors. In the years following the deregulation tion from the predatory actions of powerful com- of their rural and other industries, they have petitors. Unfortunately, section 46 as presently been faced with an increasing concentration drafted has proved of quite limited effectiveness of customers—for example, through the con- in achieving that result, principally because the section applies only to monopolists or those with solidation of grocery sales by Coles and overwhelming market dominance. Woolworth’s and the disappearance of other customers as small businesses have dwin- The amendments are designed to address these problems. The government members’ dled. This continues through the consolida- tion of other markets like liquor or insurance report has suggested there be an amendment companies for the motor trades. Other small to section 46 to deal with predatory pricing to cover situations in which a corporation has business people like newsagents also need these powers when dealing with a small a substantial degree of power in a market and number of publishers. With the increase in has taken advantage of this power for the proscribed purpose in the act against their large national contracts becoming the norm, competition. Under this, the court may have legislation allowing this process is needed now. regard to the corporation’s capacity to sell below cost. The Boral decision virtually re- Introducing a notification process rather quired a monopoly position. In returning to than a very protracted authorisation process the intent of the 1986 amendment, it is hoped will help to rebalance the market power and to get through the threshold for small busi- bargaining power between big businesses ness. and small individual businesses and produc- The second area where there has been ers. The National Party has always been at support from all committee members and the forefront of reform to the area of collective negotiations, which are presently only endorsement from the small business com- permitted following an authorisation by the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21795

ACCC. It is pleasing to see that all commit- sen to get together to collectively negotiate. tee members agree with implementing the This right, agreed to not only by the govern- Dawson recommendation for collective ne- ment but by the main competition enforcer, gotiations, including collective boycotts. the ACCC, must be respected by the strong That is very important. It is no good having party on the other side. I think Senator collective bargaining if there is no end point George Campbell would see the relevance in to it. There has to be a point where there is that. Big business must know that this right some muscle. I am glad that everyone has to collectively negotiate is a right granted by agreed with that recommendation. law which is a legitimate part of the bargain- In the report government members stated ing process, that it is here to stay and that that they noted that collective bargaining by they must always operate within its frame- small businesses was one of the key recom- work. The government has made many gains mendations of the Dawson report and that in support of small business. This includes the government has already announced its the reforms that came out of the fair trading intention to legislate for it, adding that gov- review, such as representative actions being ernment members support this recommenda- brought by the ACCC on behalf of small tion. I, too, am very supportive of this rec- business and the recognition of regional ommendation, which has now been a unani- economies. mous decision of several inquiries, the latest A hugely important reform that came out being the Senate committee, and was previ- of this review was the introduction of the ously endorsed by the Dawson review. Retail Grocery Industry Ombudsman. The The government has also been very sup- grocery industry ombudsman and the grocery portive of this change to collective negotia- industry code of conduct are currently being tions. Treasurer Peter Costello, in his re- reviewed after three years of operation. Both sponse to collective negotiations in the Daw- the ombudsman and the code have operated son review, said: as a most worthwhile support for small business and farmers, and were introduced by Rural and regional stakeholders ... will welcome the introduction of a notification process to facili- this coalition government. I congratulate the tate collective bargaining by small businesses ombudsman in his efforts in mediating dis- dealing with large businesses. This would apply putes. His presence and the presence of the to businesses that supply or acquire goods in code and its industry committee have been of transactions valued at less than $3 million per great assistance in normalising relations. I year, or a larger sum if varied by regulation. look forward to the continuation of the om- I welcome this move but the limit must re- budsman and the system that has been estab- flect the real terms of transactions. I give the lished following the review. example of dairy contracts, where some of Other important developments from this the bigger farmers would probably have over reform have been the increasing adoption of $1 million worth of milk going to processors. codes of practice, and I give an example of a Collective negotiations are an important code of practice being worked on with the tool, an essential tool for small business in assistance of the ACCC that will have great the present climate of commercial dealings application for the horticultural industry with increasingly concentrated customers through all its stages from the farm to the and suppliers, so granting the right to collec- retailer. All parties need transparency in their tively negotiate must never form the basis of dealings all the way along the line, such as discrimination against a group that has cho-

CHAMBER 21796 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 growers knowing whether they are dealing Australian Broadcasting Corporation: with an agent or with a wholesaler. Sports Coverage Governments have acted to assist the Senator KIRK (South Australia) (12.58 small against the big in our deregulated mar- p.m.)—I rise to speak this afternoon on a ketplace. The next welcome move will be the matter of public interest affecting a number easier notification process for collective bar- of my constituents in Adelaide and in South gaining. As the premium dairy farmers will Australia. Last week we saw an announce- tell you, getting an authorisation can involve ment by the ABC of the introduction of a tremendous costs and take years, and then it national sports broadcast. This was a deci- can be subject to appeal with the need to go sion that was met with outrage by avid sports right back to the beginning and start again. fans across Australia and, in particular, in my The new recommended process will be sim- home state of South Australia. ple, speedy, cheap and efficient and will be a As we all know, sport plays a very big role process for all small business people and in the everyday lives of Australians. Austra- farmers to collectively negotiate. The notifi- lia identifies itself as a sporting nation, and cation process will assist any small business many Australians take an active interest in group, newsagents, the motor trades industry sport and identify themselves with it. Sport is and farmers. It was a Nationals initiative an- a point of pride for the Australian psyche; it nounced by John Anderson prior to the last is a part of our identity. We do have a na- election, and now after examination by the tional sporting identity, but individual states Dawson review it has been accepted with also have clear, state based sporting prefer- bipartisan support in the Senate committee. ences. What varies from state to state is the I am pleased that the recommendation for type of sport that is particularly important in the reintroduction of an effective section 46 each state. for small business has been welcomed by all In South Australia the types of sports that small business groups. The Boral and Rural are particularly important are the AFL and Press decisions acted to limit the remedy for local sports events. As a South Australian small business. Now, as recommended in this senator it is my duty to bring to the attention report, small business should soon once of the Senate, the states house, the impor- again have an available and meaningful rem- tance of AFL coverage by the national edy for predatory pricing under reformed broadcaster. What the ABC’s decision means section 46. for South Australian viewers is that there will For a long time the balance has been see- be less coverage of local sports events and sawing, with the seesaw getting higher and much less coverage of AFL and SANFL. As going more and more to big business. At the the predominant code of football in the state, same time the market power has been getting most avid football fans want good AFL cov- more and more restricted, with power going erage. The coverage of this sport will un- to big business, depowering small business, doubtedly be affected, despite denials of this through consolidations. This piece of legisla- by ABC management. The effect will be that tion is a genuine attempt by the government viewers from South Australia may decide not to balance that market power. to watch the ABC news and its sports bulle- tins. If they do decide to watch, they will not be informed about the things happening directly around them in their communities;

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21797 instead, they will be watching things of very While Australian children, as we know, little interest to them. This could lead to sev- are playing less and less sport and spending eral problems. more time in front of the television and play- In my view, the ABC ought to promote the ing computer games, parents and schools are things seen as important by the public, in- trying desperately to reverse this trend. We cluding by South Australians, as it is after all all know that young people and children are a publicly owned broadcaster. The jobs of inspired by watching their sporting heroes those who work for the ABC in South Aus- and following their careers but this will be tralia are also very important and should be made all the more difficult if local coverage looked after. It is natural for those reporting of sports—particularly on the ABC, our pub- the news to be reactive to what is happening lic broadcaster—is not maintained. Each in the area they live and work in. The intro- Australian state maintains its separate sport- duction of the national sports presentation ing identity. For South Australia this is means that it will be incredibly difficult for closely linked with our two AFL teams—the Sydney based journalists to write effectively Adelaide Crows and the Port Adelaide on South Australian sports issues. In fact, as Power—as well as with local sport. The con- was seen during the launch of the ‘national nection that people feel with the ABC is sports wrap’, Sydney and New South Wales greatly enhanced by relevant and local sports issues dominated the presentation. Adelaide stories being presented during the sports bul- was mentioned only once and, even then, letin. Over the years the ABC has become an very briefly. This is frustrating for Adelaide integral part of many Australians’ lives. It is viewers, who have come to rely on the ABC highly regarded by many as it has a reputa- for informative and accurate coverage of tion for coverage of local events and issues sports news that is relevant to them—that is, in both metropolitan and regional Australia. of local sports and, in particular, Australian This is important for the ABC to not only Rules football. Whilst these are not the only have the continued support of its viewers but problems, they are the most immediately also to fulfil its role as the public broad- frustrating. caster—a public broadcaster that has obligations to every Australian, not just to Sydney- Along with the loss of coverage of high siders. profile sports, such as the AFL, will come the quick death of coverage of lower profile The ABC claim in their annual report for sports. How are lower profile sports going to 2002-03 that they have a very high approval compete in a national, Sydney based sports rating and that most Australians feel that they bulletin? The simple answer is that they will provide a useful and informative service for not be able to compete. Instead, information Australians. I think we would all agree with on sports teams such as Adelaide United and that. Whilst the ABC management claim that important local events such as last weekend’s they alone are responsible for the editorial Clipsal 500 will not be presented to South content of the ABC, surely public opinion Australian viewers. In addition, local counts. Public opinion says that the ABC women’s sports and junior sporting events should continue to broadcast sports news on will miss out. Without TV coverage by the a state-by-state basis, offering quality cover- ABC, many of these events will not receive age of local events. The ABC have argued sponsorship or gain public awareness. This that their proposal for a national sports will affect the teams and participants not wrap—with Peter Wilkins, a man of all only of today but also of the future. sports, who knows what is news and what is

CHAMBER 21798 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 not—is an upgrade. Again, I have no doubt and very important balancing act between that Peter Wilkins has the qualities that the revenue, income tax, other tax measures and ABC management have attributed to him. expenditure on services. The group is putting The ABC claim that they are ‘decommercial- forward the simple message of ‘services first ising’ their sports report and that most view- before tax cuts’. The message in the debate ers have already seen a commercial news about tax cuts—whether the public deserve bulletin before they get round to watching any changes, whether we should be returning the 7 o’clock news on the ABC. This may bracket creep or whether there should be well be the case, but it is not a good enough changes to the income tax threshold—is: let reason for viewers to miss out on local news. us not forget that every dollar that is forgone It is also claimed by the ABC that a through tax cuts to the public is a dollar that broader wrap, including international sports can no longer be spent on services. Plenty of news, will be better and more comprehensive surveys show that a lot of people would be than its regular sports reporting. If it will be more willing to forgo money being put back so much better, why then does the ABC in- in their pocket through tax cuts if they were sist that it will only apply to its weekday assured that that extra money would instead sports news and not to its weekend sports be invested in better services for them and news, which will remain the same? For the the community. most part Australians, and South Australians It is significant that the Services First alli- in particular, want their local footy cover- ance that launched the package includes a age—something that would undoubtedly be wide range of organisations. It includes missing from an eastern states and New ACOSS—an umbrella organisation for South Wales dominated presentation. To this community service organisations—Aged and end, I call on the government to do some- Community Services Australia, schools and thing—whatever it takes—about this prob- higher education organisations, the Federa- lem. We want an ABC management that does tion of Disability Organisations, health or- not consider coverage of sports outside of ganisations, the National Shelter in the im- Sydney as expendable and an ABC that is portant and often forgotten area of housing, adequately funded to ensure that it meets its and ATSIC in the also, unfortunately, often obligations to all Australians. forgotten area of Indigenous assistance. Cur- Economy: Fiscal Policy rently, ATSIC is having lots of difficulties and wrestles with the government. That is Immigration: Refugees occupying a lot of the political focus. Let us Senator BARTLETT (Queensland— not forget that the core purpose of ATSIC Leader of the Australian Democrats) (1.07 and the core commitment of the people who p.m.)—I wish to speak on two matters in this are involved in ATSIC and the commission- debate of matters of public interest. Firstly, I ers is still to provide the assistance that is would like to draw the Senate’s attention and needed for Indigenous Australians. The fact the public’s attention to a package of meas- remains, and it should not be forgotten in any ures released today by an alliance of com- debates about the future directions for ser- munity organisations called Services First. It vice delivery for Indigenous people, that goes to what I believe is one of the most cru- Australia’s Aboriginal people live, on aver- cial public policy debates leading up to the age, 20 years less than non-Indigenous peo- election. It relates to what we do with budget ple. The debate we are having concerning Mr surplus, the tax system and that continual Costello’s ‘work till you drop’ and whether

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21799 we should increase the retirement age to the opportunity of setting targets for im- above 65 does not mean much to Indigenous proved bulk-billing for GPs. There are plenty people because the majority of them do not more issues within the health debate, not just live that long, and that is a disgrace. Twenty in Medicare—let alone in other areas—that years less than average life expectancy is a will continue to be debated. The Democrats disgrace, and that will not be addressed will certainly continue with those through to through tax cuts. the election. I am not saying that tax cuts should be I commend the groups for making this ruled out; what I am doing is drawing atten- statement of concern. Health and education tion to the package of measures and the are top of the list when you look at commu- statements released today simply to ensure nity concerns. Housing is not as high on the that we do not forget this part of the debate. list as I think it should be, and it certainly Providing that extra assistance for health, needs to be debated more often than it is. But schools, universities and housing will go a there is now wide acknowledgment that un- lot further towards addressing disadvantage affordability of housing is a major problem and inequality in the community. As was also for a growing number of Australians. There mentioned today by the groups in Services is a role there for the federal government to First, the gap between the well-off and the play that currently they are refusing to play. not so well-off or disadvantaged Australians Even Allan Fels earlier this week was high- has widened in the last decade. That is a lighting the problem of unaffordability of simple fact. Part of it is to do with incomes housing for many people. Other reports high- and part of it is to do with affordability and light that the amount of money that has been accessibility of services. invested in public, social and community The Senate Community Affairs Refer- housing has been declining over recent years. ences Committee spent some time in recent The availability of public housing and social months examining poverty in its inquiry. housing stock has declined. That is an in- Poverty is not just about how much money dictment on state governments as well as the you have in your pocket; poverty is about federal government. The fact is that commu- whether you can access affordable housing, nity housing and public housing are the most affordable health care and education. One efficient ways to deliver affordable housing problem with the growing inequality is that through use of public money, and no less a the less well-off not only have less money by body than the Productivity Commission—or definition but are less able to access those its forerunner, the Industry Commission— services because they need money to access found that was the case some years ago. The them. That is why the Democrats have amount of money paid out in rent assistance worked so hard on issues such as those in the through Centrelink payments is more than Medicare debate, trying to cut through the what goes into public housing around the politics to keep the core strength of Medicare country. The amount of money that went into there and to continue to make incremental the first home owners grant was around the improvements to move things in the right same as the total amount of money that went direction. Frankly, that is why it is such a into public housing around the country. tragedy that the Medicare legislation that We are spending huge amounts in areas went through this place, with the help of the such as the first home owners grant and rent Independent senators, has undermined the assistance, which are actually less efficient core focus of Medicare and refused to grasp than the area of public housing. Yet the

CHAMBER 21800 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 amount of investment is declining in the pub- like health and like education. The Democ- lic housing area rather than in the other ar- rats support that aspect of the debate and will eas. I do not want to be misrepresented as play a strong role to ensure that the debate is saying that we should cut out rent assistance as broad as possible. or that we should cut out the first home own- I also want to take this opportunity to ers grant, but we do need to look at how we speak briefly on the issue of the refugee in- can provide the best value for the amount of take. We had a welcome announcement yes- money spent. Also what I believe is impor- terday from the federal government that the tant about the statement made today is the overall intake of refugees into Australia as recognition of the value of services, not just part of our humanitarian program will in- by endlessly pouring more money into them crease from 4,000 a year to 6,000 a year. but also by state and federal governments That is part of an overall increase of 1,000, focusing on and giving policy attention and from 12,000 up to 13,000, in the humanitar- priority to improving services and getting ian program, of which the refugee program is better value for the money spent. a part. For many years the Democrats have There is no doubt that at the state level it been calling for an increase in our humani- is not just a matter of the underfunding of tarian program, which has been at about hospitals. State governments make a lot of 12,000 for quite some time. So we certainly play about not getting enough money from welcome this increase and, indeed, we will the federal government to fund their hospi- keep encouraging the government to go fur- tals, and there is some credence in that— ther. although, in my view, it is nowhere near as Our overall migration intake of permanent much as they make out. There is also plenty arrivals has increased quite a lot in the last of credence in the fact that the value gained few years. There was a dip when the Howard from the money provided is not as good as it government first came to office in 1996-97, should be, and state governments must bear and the intake has gone back up to what are responsibility for that. very high levels by historical standards, I In drawing attention to this statement I am think—do not quote me on this but I think not saying that the Democrats are signing up we now have about the third highest perma- to every single word, but I am saying it is a nent net migration intake in our history. So valuable and important contribution to a de- the number is very high and, as we are taking bate that as much as possible we need to try that number of people as part of our overall to stick to the substance of, rather than just permanent net migration intake, the part that political shadow-boxing. As part of the tax deals with humanitarian entrants should in- debate that will undoubtedly flow as part of crease proportionately. the federal budget and through to the next The Democrats have been arguing for that election, we need to make sure that it does for some time. Indeed, we believe that more not become just another old-fashioned, terri- priority should be given to our humanitarian ble and irresponsible tax cut option between program than has been the case. Obviously the major parties. We need to recognise that any increase is welcome, and the Democrats this is all part of the one equation, and ser- congratulate the government for that. It is vices is part of that equation. There is sup- such a tragedy that the government, at the port in the community for properly funding very same time as increasing the humanitar- services if those services will deliver for ian intake and the refugee program intake, people in fundamental areas like housing,

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21801 still tries to keep scoring political points in has now been in the Port Hedland detention relation to people who arrive unauthorised to centre for five years for doing nothing other seek protection in Australia. We heard at a than seeking asylum. He was unsuccessful at press conference and saw in a press release the Refugee Review Tribunal, but his story and during question time yesterday the min- in relation to where he was from in Afghani- ister continue to run this outrageous line that stan and that his father had been killed by the somehow or other people who seek protec- Taliban was accepted by the tribunal. They tion in Australia and who arrive unauthorised did not accept other things and they obvi- are less deserving than other refugees. ously did not accept that Australia had a pro- The refugee principle is about protection tection obligation to him, but he is still seek- from persecution. It is not about who has the ing that protection. The fact is that, as part of least money or anything like that. If you look trying to get that protection, he has been im- at the origin of the refugee convention, prisoned for five years for committing no which stemmed from the Second World War, crime, and has not even been charged with a the idea that some of the Jews fleeing Ger- crime. That situation cannot be acceptable, many were more deserving than others based regardless of how big our humanitarian pro- on who had less money is ridiculous and of- gram is. fensive, yet that is the inference if not the So there is a big tick for a good thing, but blatant statement repeatedly made by this it does not negate the continuing unaccept- government. The suggestion the minister able actions by this government in doing made that the only reason the government things such as detaining this person for over can increase the intake is the success in put- five years. There are many others, some of ting up barriers and keeping out people who whom have suffered enormously and who are trying to seek asylum in Australia is just have basically had permanent psychological wrong. It is the government’s choice to in- damage done to them as a result of our decrease its intake, and I support that very tention regime. We have the people on Nauru strongly. But it has nothing to do with how who should not be forgotten. They are still many arrive here seeking protection. It is to suffering, and the Democrats will not back do with how many the government chooses away from continuing to ensure that some- to bring offshore, and to try to link those two body speaks on their behalf even while we is, frankly, irresponsible. It is not correct. support what the government has done by The continual rhetorical action of this gov- increasing the refugee intake. As I said, we ernment of vilifying refugees who seek asy- encourage them to go further. lum in Australia by suggesting that they are Western Australia: Labor Government somehow less deserving as justification for Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia) the immense suffering that has been put on (1.22 p.m.)—Today I want to talk about the them is a continuing problem. You can dou- Western Australia state Labor government. ble the intake to 25,000, but if at the same When Premier Gallop unexpectedly won time you continue to oppress, punish and government in Western Australia in February severely harm people who seek asylum at 2001, he made a promise that he knew he our borders it will continue to be a problem, would never be able to keep. He said that he and it will continue to receive the criticism it would form a government that would govern deserves. for all Western Australians, including re- I mentioned yesterday, and I repeat again gional Western Australia. He was then es- today, the story of a young Afghani man who

CHAMBER 21802 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 pousing a very noble sentiment but, as we in prior to the 2001 state election Labor prom- Western Australia now know, his words ised, hands on hearts, to rebuild hospitals lacked conviction. What he should have said across the state; secondly, to ensure that all was that he would form a government that police stations are staffed to their authorised was totally ‘city-centric’ in its focus and that strengths; and, thirdly, to ensure that road his priority would be all Western Australians projects in regional areas are given priority. as long as they lived in the Perth metropoli- Premier Gallop has knowingly and wantonly tan area. breached these seemingly rock solid com- The Western Australian state Labor gov- mitments. In health the Gallop government ernment’s total disregard and contempt for has once again failed dismally. Remember people who live outside the Perth metropoli- that, in the 10 years of the previous Burke tan area is offensive and, from a political Labor government, Labor failed to build one perspective, quite bewildering. As soon as new hospital anywhere in Western Australia. Labor assumed government, one of the first In the election campaign, Labor gave a things they did was to let Minister McGinty solemn undertaking to the people of Western off the leash so he could continue with his Australia to fix the health system. Everyone zealous ambition to disenfranchise regional in Western Australia can remember the now Western Australian voters by promoting one Premier Gallop’s famous retort, ‘If Richard vote, one value. People living in rural West- Court can’t fix the health system, then I will.’ ern Australia did not put up with this Labor However, in terms of meeting its pre-election Party bullying and rallied to contribute to a commitment to ‘give priority to rebuilding fighting fund. They raised some $130,000, Western Australia’s hospitals across the state’ largely from local people from country it has been nothing but a cruel hoax for the shires. They took the fight against Labor all people living in small towns and communi- the way to the High Court of Australia and ties of regional Western Australia. The Gal- won. lop government has broken its promise to The Gallop government’s success rate build a new hospital in Moora and in Den- with respect to one vote, one value has the mark. It has broken its promise to redevelop hollow ring of a badly defeated tennis the Port Hedland hospital, the Derby hospi- player’s score. Seven years ago in their first tal, the Margaret River hospital, the Halls legal challenge, they lost four to two. Then Creek hospital and Kununurra hospital. It has they lost four to one in the Supreme Court of broken its promise to maintain health ser- Western Australia. In the final set in the High vices at both Yarloop and Dumbleyung hos- Court, they lost five to one. They went down pitals and has downgraded their status. in three straight sets in what can only be de- The promised new Moora Hospital has scribed as a complete whitewash. David, in been canned despite it being a clear and un- the name of country people and country equivocal promise in the lead-up to the last shires, took on Goliath and won. state election. The people of Moora have Since February 2001, we in Western Aus- shown their displeasure in being snubbed by tralia have seen country health, regional this increasingly arrogant government and roads, law and order and essential infrastruc- have shadowed Premier Gallop all over ture, including power and electricity, not just Perth. As recently as yesterday, at a media ignored but deliberately starved of funding in event in Denmark, they presented him with a deference to the city. By way of example, crumbling brick from their run-down ruin of a hospital that is an absolute insult. Every

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21803 police station in every police district is un- good news for a media event and then take derstaffed. The Goldfields-Esperance dis- off, usually without a word or any contact trict, at last count, was 10 police officers with local people or community groups. The short and the Mid-West Gascoyne district is reason is obvious: this state government 13 police officers short. simply does not want to know or hear about The unkindest cut of all to country West- the problems out in the bush. More distress- ern Australians has been the provision of ing still is that this government in Western regional road funding. Roads, as all Western Australia simply does not care. Australian government members in this place Country people are sick of Premier Gal- know, are the lifeblood of country communi- lop’s lip-service to regional Western Austra- ties. If serviceable all-weather roads are not lia. They want action. However, action is not provided or adequately maintained, the bush very high on this government’s agenda. It is and all its levels of productivity will slowly completely Perth-centric in its policy devel- grind to a halt. opment; nowhere else is this better demon- To fund its ‘city-centric’ programs like the strated than in its plan to build this outra- redefined, redesigned and rerouted Man- geously expensive rail system from Perth to durah to Perth railway line—a $1.5 billion Mandurah. The cost of this black hole for funding extravaganza—Labor has blatantly government expenditure has started to blow failed to honour its commitments on roads to out already. The project adheres to a master local regional councils. Since being elected it plan developed in the Department of the has cut $14 million from the local govern- Premier and Cabinet. This plan is a monu- ment roads budget alone, with another $200 ment to maladministration. The bypassing of million to be slashed from the Western Aus- Rockingham, a major satellite city of Perth, tralian main roads budget over the next four and the missing out completely of servicing years. It is estimated that, since coming into the rapidly developing southern suburbs in office, Labor in Western Australia has al- the Canning Vale and Southern River areas is ready cut total road funding by at least $400 a disgrace. million and probably as much as $600 mil- The proposed new route of the railway lion. When Minister MacTiernan was ques- line will go straight down the freeway into tioned on this recently, she flippantly re- Perth because it was thought it would be 12 sponded by saying that the government had minutes quicker than the one previously other priorities. However, what really sickens planned. However, it has recently come to country people struggling to drive on their light—but it has not been announced by the roads is the fact that this hopelessly incom- hapless Minister for Planning and Infrastruc- petent state government has actually under- ture—that the new system will not only ser- spent $50 million from last year’s main roads vice fewer people than was forecast by the budget. The net result of this lack of gov- previous coalition plan but take three min- ernment spending on roads is a deteriorating utes longer, as the train will have to slow road network in country Western Australia, down to a snail’s pace for the last segment of with all of the consequences of safety and its journey as it navigates the Narrows delay. Bridge and the very expensive engineering The hallmark of this state government’s nightmare of a new tunnel into Perth near the reign is to fly-in and fly-out on day trips to proposed station near Parliament House, regional destinations to announce this or that west of the CBD. The latest modelling by government appointed Voran Consultants is

CHAMBER 21804 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 devastating news. It exposes the Labor rail- Perth to Mandurah railway line could have way plan as hopelessly flawed, with its costs gone a long way to fixing up this most basic blowing out at a very rapid rate. The latest of services in country Western Australia. estimate is that it is going to cost $500 mil- School bus contracts have attracted plenty lion over the $1.5 billion budget, with more of attention recently in Western Australia for blow-outs to come as this government’s all the wrong reasons. School buses are the sloppiness in contract management is further lifeblood of country education in Western exposed. Australia as they transport children within an What really upsets country people is that 80-kilometre radius of the local primary and this piece of Labor extravagance is not going high schools to and from classes every day. to be funded by a public-private partnership Drivers start their pick-ups at 7.30 in the or by private enterprise. It is going to be morning and drop off their last passengers at funded exclusively out of the public purse. 4.30 every afternoon. Typically, school bus Already $1.5 billion has been spent on it, and contracts are run by either local farmers who this is growing every day. The cuts to fund are dependent on the supplementary income this Labor Party folly have already impacted or local small business people who need the upon regional Western Australia. We have cash flow of the school bus run to keep their seen massive cuts to road funding and coun- small local business viable. However, after try health, as I have mentioned; the closure three years of harassment and intimidation— of country schools; a country power supply including late night letters faxed to school system that is past crisis level; and the list bus contractors on Christmas Eve by Minis- goes on. Make no mistake: Labor is on the ter MacTiernan, the state minister in charge nose in the bush in Western Australia. of school bus contracts—a new low was It would be remiss of me if I did not high- reached in January when the minister refused light the power supply crisis that is not only to accept the contracts of many school bus a serious problem in metropolitan Perth—as contractors who attached a letter saying that I mentioned a few weeks ago in this place— they had signed the contracts under duress. but also a problem of epic proportions in In her well-renowned belligerent manner, the regional Western Australia. Regional power minister said that she will put out to tender infrastructure is decaying rapidly under this all contracts of businesses that do not uncon- ‘do nothing in the bush’ government, and ditionally accept her terms on the new con- blackouts in country towns are an almost tracts. daily occurrence. It is simply not good School bus contractors are not greedy enough, and there is no excuse for the state people; all they want is a fair go and not to Labor government to neglect this very basic be forced to the wall by signing contracts and fundamental service to country people. that barely cover their costs. What the minis- City people will not wear it, as we have seen ter is trying to do is force out the local opera- with the blackouts right across the Perth met- tors and replace them with buses supplied by ropolitan area in February, and neither major transport companies. Such an action should country people. The former coalition may save a few dollars, but it is just another government had already identified the need step by this increasingly arrogant govern- to upgrade regional power infrastructure and ment in decimating small local communities had committed to spending half a billion dol- in regional Western Australia. Already since lars to upgrade the network. The half a bil- the election of the Gallop Labor government lion dollar blow-out in the poorly planned we have seen bus companies with head of-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21805 fices thousands of kilometres away winning abetted by injudicious interpretations by bu- school bus contracts over local contractors. reaucrats, are causing havoc in country Such an action is just another knife in the Western Australia. It has got to such a critical neck for regional Western Australians. stage that farmers are being forced into It took nearly three years of dragging the breaking the current laws just to go about Gallop government—screaming and kicking their daily work. We had a ludicrous situa- all the way—to make it finally come to its tion recently where an 82-year-old farmer senses and sign the bilateral agreement with was charged by CALM officers for driving the federal government to address Western on a CALM reserve. This farmer has devoted Australia’s No. 1 environmental black spot, his retirement years to lobbying governments namely salinity. The bilateral agreement is on both sides of the political fence to come part of the Howard government’s $1.4 billion up with workable solutions to Western Aus- National Action Plan for Salinity and Water tralia’s salinity crisis. This farmer had been Quality, which is specifically directed at ad- at the reserve investigating an increase in dressing the pervasive effects of salinity and salinity problems in the area and, for his water quality. Unfortunately for Western trouble, he was booked by CALM officers Australia, we are unnecessarily three years and charged with offences of the most trivial behind the game in tackling this insidious nature. problem that is devastating large tracts of our The problems are being exacerbated by wheat belt. In total, the Commonwealth has changes in environmental laws, where the committed $157 million, with an equal current minium size of one hectare is being amount to be provided by the state govern- removed from vegetation clearing restric- ment. tions. Instead, landowners now have to apply A close watch must be kept on the Gallop to zealous eco-bureaucrats for permission to government to make sure that the next state remove even one tree or shrub, or a branch government budget allocates this agreed or leaves. It is clearly an untenable situation amount. The reason for the cautionary note is for landowners, particularly farmers, when that Premier Gallop said as recently as 4 Oc- they are forced to apply for a clearing permit tober 2003 that he hoped that the next state when they want to remove even one single budget would identify the additional funds plant. Farm leaders are warning the state needed to fully match that Commonwealth government— (Time expired) money. Country Western Australia will be Spain: Terrorist Attacks watching Dr Gallop very closely, as salin- Senator STEPHENS (New South Wales) ity—and all of the ravages that it brings to (1.37 p.m.)—Yesterday evening Canberra our state’s landscape and productivity—is paid tribute to the people massacred and the already an unfolding environmental disaster. many injured in the Madrid train bombings If the Premier reneges on his commitment, at a mass at St Christopher’s Cathedral in rest assured that the whole of Western Aus- Manuka. This followed more than a week of tralia, not just regional WA, will come down tributes and condolences, including floral on his government like a tonne of bricks. tributes, at the Spanish Embassy and the es- Changes to environmental laws made by tablishment of a condolence book signed by the Minister for the Environment, the Hon. many hundreds of Canberrans. Recalling the Judy Edwards—who has shown herself to be mark of respect paid to the victims of Sep- a slave to the bureaucracy—and aided and tember 11 and the Bali bombings, the people

CHAMBER 21806 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 of Canberra joined with the Spanish commu- close to the modern art museum, La Reina nity of Australia and in ‘solidaridad’ with the Sofia. grieving nation of Spain for a moving tribute As Dr Judith Keene, the director of the to the innocent victims of the latest act of European Studies Centre at the University of global terror. Representing Spain was the Sydney, wrote recently in the Sydney Morn- charge d’affaires Alfonso Lucini, his wife, ing Herald: and staff from the Embassy of Spain. The timing was also striking. In a nation that rises The mass was conducted in Spanish and late, those injured at 7.30am were the first wave English by Fathers Frank Jones and John in the day’s commuters. Ordinary working peo- Armstrong and was attended by representa- ple— tives of the Australian parliament, including including many immigrants from Peru, Ec- the President of the Senate, the ACT Legisla- uador, Argentina, Romania and Bulgaria tive Assembly and many of Canberra’s dip- were among those commuters. Dr Keene lomatic community. In a moving homily Fa- continued: ther Jones, speaking in both Spanish and These are the workers whose days start first. They English, called for all Australians not to be- leave home early to get to the city to open up the come complacent about the victims of terror- office, to empty the bins, or to clear up and mind ism overseas. He said the fact that there were the children of those who arrive later at work. no Australian victims in the Madrid bomb- With the exception of a vote in the elections, they ings should not and does not mean that we are not people whose opinions are sought. Nor are not sharing that nation’s grief for the in- does what they think exercise great sway, except nocent victims who had done nothing more perhaps chatting on the stairs with the neighbour that day than go about their ordinary busi- or at the local bar. ness. As well as the 190 people killed in the Dr Keene reminded us of the stoic response bomb blasts, another 1,500 were injured and, to the bombing by Spaniards across the na- just as in Bali and New York, the Australian tion. She said: Spanish community is touched by knowing At midday on Thursday, the day of the bombings, victims or their families. Prayers of the faith- Madrid Radio reported that Plaza Mayor and ful were said in Spanish and English, binding Puerta del Sol, normally teeming with noise and the two nations in a ceremony of sorrow and people, were quiet as befitted a city and a nation understanding. in shock. The randomness of this act of terror brings The next day, however, by 6pm the streets were home the immediacy of the effects. Two filled with people. In Madrid 2 million ... crowded along the great Castellana, the central massive bombs were placed at Atocha station artery and around Atocha. in the city of Madrid. The two others, at El Pozo and Santa Eugenia, were on trains that The royal family, the prime minister and the had just begun the run into the city from the socialist leader of the opposition attended a outlying suburbs. These sites were chosen to memorial service at Almudena Cathedral. An cause maximum damage. Atocha is the main estimated 11 million people—more than a railway hub in Madrid, serving much the quarter of the population—took part in same function as Sydney’s Central Railway marches across the country. Dr Keene con- Station. It is within walking distance of the tinued: Prado, the Plaza Mayor and the Puerta del But it was not the official presence which was so Sol, the historic centres of Old Madrid, and riveting. It was the demeanour of the people.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21807

Many carried candles even though it was broad Last night’s service also followed the call daylight: old and young, families and groups. last Tuesday by the Irish EU presidency for Travel on trains and buses in the city was free that nations all over the world to observe three day, making it easier for people to attend the minutes silence, when in Dublin—the cur- demonstrations. Some shouted slogans and car- rent seat of the EU presidency—Prime Min- ried signs calling for an end to ETA and Basque terrorism. ister Bertie Ahern stood in silence beside the Spanish charge d’affaires to Ireland. In Ber- Many more held aloft their open hands, on the lin companies and public institutions ob- palms of which had been painted “Basta” and “Ya” (“Enough” and “Now”). In general there served the three minutes silence at midday was a dignity and a resolve that was very moving. and in Dresden the bells of the Church of And it was the same across the nation. Our Lady rang out at noon, when trains and buses stopped on their routes. Pope John … … … Paul II joined in moments of meditation for In Bilbao, in the Basque country, it poured with the victims and devoted his daily morning rain but nearly 2 million people stood quietly mass to the victims and their families. In under umbrellas to mourn the deaths. In Barce- Bulgaria President Georgi Paranov attended lona, always more politically outspoken, there was antagonism towards Aznar and the Spanish a service at Sofia’s Alexandre Nevski Cathe- government. In the posters and the speeches, dral. Bulgaria had lost four of its nationals in Spain’s involvement in the Iraqi war was criti- the blast. In Paris the French President, cised because it had made Spain a terrorist target. Jacques Chirac, laid a wreath at the Spanish Certainly, the size of the crowds across Spain Embassy. The President of the European recalled the demonstrations mid last year when 90 Commission, Romano Prodi, led a show of per cent of Spaniards, so the polls recorded, op- silent solidarity in Brussels before urging EU posed involvement in the Iraq war. leaders to respond to the Madrid attacks by Dr Keene continued: agreeing at a summit this week to new con- ... the Spanish elections have come and gone. The crete measures to fight terrorists. Swedish conservative government of Partido Popular, led Prime Minister Persson, in expressing his by Jose Maria Aznar, has been defeated and there condolences said, ‘We must never accept is now a Socialist majority in the Spanish Cortes. this.’ Several arrests have been made and the Spanish Here in Australia and in this place, we Interior Ministry has identified them as part of an must never accept this. On behalf of my col- international terrorist movement. Certainly March leagues in this parliament, I express our con- 11, 2004, in Madrid will be remembered as the dolences to the Spanish people. We have European equivalent of September 11 in the US— more than 12,000 Spanish immigrants living and Australia’s Bali tragedy. As Father Frank amongst us in Australia. Many of them have Jones, in thanking the Spanish community of come from the city of Madrid. This was, as Canberra for organising the local service last Labor’s leader, Mark Latham, said in speak- night said, ‘The danger of religious funda- ing to a condolence motion in the other place mentalism in fuelling terror and international ‘an evil act that appalled peoples around the instability in the name of God is a phenome- world’. The Spanish are an open, generous non of disenfranchisement and poverty.’ He people, yet they are proud and resolute, hav- urged the congregation not to allow their ing lived with the horror of terrorism for faith to be shaken by terrorism and this hor- over 40 years. Their public display of grief rific event that had caused such pain. and call for peace were not those of a nation bowing to terrorism but very much those of a

CHAMBER 21808 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 nation in defiance, a proud nation, well loved from me. He did not raise it, as far as I am and respected by the Australian people. aware, and he certainly did not raise it with Father Frank Jones reminded us last night me. that, in the last year or so, terrorist attacks Mr President, it is a bit rich. We have the have taken place in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, opposition coming in here and making out it Morocco, Turkey and the Philippines. He is defending the Australian Federal Police reminded us not to forget and not to become Commissioner. At least Senator Ray had the complacent on the issue. Those attacks have honesty yesterday to say that he had not al- taken the lives of many hundreds of people ways been satisfied with the evidence that with no regard to their nationality or reli- the Commissioner of the Australian Federal gious beliefs. The Prime Minister of Austra- Police gave at estimates committee hearings. lia has said that Spain is a warning that it But have a look at what Senator Faulkner could happen here in Australia. In his condo- had to say. The AFP issued a press release on lence motion in the parliament he said that as 26 September 2002 saying that Senator a parliament and as a nation we must resolve Faulkner had got it wrong. This is what to continue our ‘efforts to combat and defeat Senator Faulkner said in a press release: terrorism’. He continued: Further questions have been raised about the In expressing our sympathy with the people of quality of evidence provided to parliament by the Spain, let us also declare that under no circum- head of the Australian Federal Police, Commis- stances will threats of terrorism alter the stance sioner Mick Keelty. that this country, this government or these people Mr President, as outlined in the Senate and take on any issue. the House of Representatives yesterday, the Our thoughts, our hearts and our prayers are opposition—led in this chamber by Senator with the Australian Spanish community and Faulkner—is making out that it is in some the nation of Spain as they come to terms way defending the Commissioner of the Aus- with this awful tragedy. tralian Federal Police, when Senator Faulk- Sitting suspended from 1.49 p.m. to 2 p.m. ner has a track record of attacking the Aus- QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE tralian Federal Police Commissioner— without foundation, I might add. This re- National Security: Terrorism quires an apology to the police commis- Senator BOLKUS (2.00 p.m.)—My sioner. At least Senator Ray had the honesty, question is to the Minister for Justice and when he was addressing this issue yesterday, Customs. I ask: is the minister aware of AFP to outline his attitude. Commissioner Keelty having raised the issue The opposition does not like this—of of his resignation with any member of the course it doesn’t—because the truth hurts. I government? The minister has stated that the have made the position on this issue very commissioner never raised the matter with clear. The matter is over and done with. The him but, as the minister responsible for the police commissioner has made it very clear AFP, does the minister have knowledge of that he wants to get on with the job of carry- the commissioner’s resignation having been ing out the foremost role of law enforcement raised with any other minister, including the in this country. He has a very important job Prime Minister? to do in relation to law enforcement and the Senator ELLISON—I do not have any security of this country, and I want to work knowledge of the police commissioner offer- with him in that regard. ing his resignation to any other person apart

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21809

Senator BOLKUS—Mr President, I ask a strong. A recent article that appeared in the supplementary question. All that bluster does Economist said: not cover up the fundamental question. I ask Thanks to wide-ranging structural reforms and the minister again: isn’t it the case that when sounder monetary and fiscal policies, the econ- the Prime Minister was asked yesterday omy— whether he or his office were aware that Australia’s— Commissioner Keelty was considering his has recently been one of the best performers in resignation last week, he restated—stating the world. the obvious and avoiding the question—that The chief economist of the OECD has said the commissioner did not tender his resigna- recently: tion. Minister, isn’t this just typical of the government’s evasiveness on this and other ... experts in other economies are looking to Aus- matters? Can the minister now answer a sim- tralia as a role model. ple and direct question: is he aware of Australia’s economy has withstood a down- Commissioner Keelty having raised the issue turn like that experienced by many of the of his possible resignation with any member world’s major economies such as the United of the government? States, France and Japan, which are in reces- Senator ELLISON—The answer is that I sion. This good economic record is a result am not aware—and, for the third time, I have of the government’s strong economic poli- already answered that question. It was not cies, which include balancing the budget, raised with me and I am not aware of it hav- reforming the tax system, reducing Labor’s ing been raised with anyone else. Commis- debt by around $60 billion, introducing a sioner Keelty has indicated nothing but a broad based indirect tax, lowering company desire to continue doing his job as police taxes and halving capital gains tax. The na- commissioner for the Australian Federal Po- tional accounts released earlier this month lice and in his role as Chairman of the Aus- showed the Australian economy growing at tralian Crime Commission. This government about four per cent at the end of last year, the strongest quarterly growth in four years. intends to support him in that role—a role which he is carrying out very well. The government is also committed to im- Economy: Policy portant spending programs in health and education. The government is investing $2.9 Senator McGAURAN (2.04 p.m.)—My billion in strengthening Australia’s health question is to the Minister for Revenue and system through MedicarePlus. It will also Assistant Treasurer. Will the minister inform provide $31.3 billion over four years for our the Senate of the government’s strong eco- children’s education—for schools, for liter- nomic record and commitment to balancing acy and numeracy programs and for capital the budget? Is the minister aware of any al- works. Good economic management does ternative policies that would jeopardise this not, unfortunately, happen by accident. It record? comes from strong, disciplined economic Senator COONAN—I thank Senator policy, which is the record of this govern- McGauran for asking about this government over the past eight years. ment’s economic achievements. Since the I was asked about alternative policies and coalition government took office in March the impact they might have on this record. In 1996, economic growth has been very Labor’s magic pudding there is a growing list of unachievable and unfunded promises,

CHAMBER 21810 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 amounting to over $8 billion, such as Mr drive this economy back into deficit and Latham’s announcement last week to reduce debt. (Time expired) the superannuation contributions tax to 13 Defence: Equipment per cent, costing over $1 billion, and then Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.09 p.m.)— abolish the tax in around 20 years, estimated My question is directed to Senator Hill, the to cost around $5 billion—and with no ex- Minister for Defence. I refer the minister to planation about where that money is to come the $170 million defence project to provide from. electronic support measures and a forward- Senator Sherry interjecting— looking infra-red capability, known as FLIR, Senator COONAN—Senator Sherry re- for the Navy’s 16 Seahawk helicopters. Can minds me of the ‘sloppy errors’. There was the minister confirm that this project is now Mr Latham’s $8 billion ‘super blooper’, running three years late? Can he also confirm where it was obvious to everyone except that 80 per cent of the project budget has Labor that he was pledging to increase the already been spent even though only one pension by at least $2 billion a year. With aircraft—which was a trial installation—has Labor steering the economy, we would be received the upgrade? Does the government setting a course for higher taxes and greater still seriously contend that the remaining deficits. It is obvious that Mr Latham and funds of $35 million will pay for the upgrade Labor are economic amateurs. Everyone of the other 15 Seahawks, or will this be an- knows that you cannot spend more, reduce other defence project that will require extra taxes and keep the budget balanced. funding in order to meet the delivery? Senator Sherry interjecting— Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on Sherry, you know—and I remind other sena- both sides of the chamber, come to order. I tors also—that chatting across the chamber again draw your attention to standing order while the minister is on her feet trying to an 72, which states that a minister answering a answer a question is disorderly. question or someone asking a question Senator COONAN—I was saying that should be heard in silence. we only have to look at the eight Labor state Senator HILL—I will deal first with the and territory governments for proof of the latter part of the question, in which Senator fact that you cannot do all things; that you Evans asked: ‘Is this another defence pro- cannot spend more, reduce taxes and keep curement project in trouble?’ To put it in the budget balanced. Last year, despite shar- context, the DMO is doing much better with ing around $31 billion in GST revenue, and its program now than it has done in the past. windfalls from stamp duty of around $8.5 In fact some of the most complex projects billion, every Labor state and territory gov- that it has before it, which one would have ernment increased taxes. The Australian peo- thought on the basis of history would be in ple should be alarmed at the possibility of trouble, are on time, on capability and on eight Labor states and federal Labor ripping budget. For example, I talk about the Wedge- more tax out of hardworking Australian tax- tail AEW&C aircraft project, which is ex- payers. When it comes to balancing budgets tremely complicated in terms of new tech- and managing the economy, Labor are not nology and integration of technologies. That only economic amateurs; they are sloppy, program is on time, and the first aircraft at- fiscal vandals who will blow the budget and tached with the new radar will fly in the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21811

United States in May of this year. Another The Seahawk helicopter upgrade program similar project was the Tiger armed recon- is behind time, it is true. There are still trou- naissance helicopter project. Australia is in bles with that program. There have been un- the forefront of the purchase of that particu- avoidable delays. For example, the test heli- lar helicopter, so you are looking again at a copter, as I recall, recently suffered signifi- new and very sophisticated weapons system. cant damage due to weather and that delayed That project is also on time and on budget, the program for some further months. But at and in fact the first helicopter flew last least I can say to the honourable senator that month in France and I think there are four, or a great deal of effort is being put in by DMO perhaps even five, of the helicopters now to get that project back on schedule in the being assembled in Brisbane, Australia. same way as DMO has already succeeded in But there are still some legacy projects doing with so many of the other legacy pro- that are in trouble. Yes, Senator Evans jects. So, yes, there are still difficulties with smiles. He could acknowledge, for example, that project. Efforts are being made to over- the great progress that we have now made come those difficulties. with the Super Seasprite program. I would Senator Chris Evans—Have you got the have liked to have seen him at the launch of money to deliver the project? the final Anzac ship in Melbourne last week- Senator HILL—There is no plan for ad- end, when three Super Seasprite helicopters ditional funds. The job has to be done with flew over the works. the funds that have been made available, and Senator Chris Evans—Were they armed? that is the way the government is approach- Senator HILL—No, they were not ing these issues. armed. They do not fly around Melbourne Senator CHRIS EVANS—Mr President, armed. There are still some integration issues I ask a supplementary question. I acknowl- to be finally resolved, but the aircraft are edge that I was unable to be at the Anzac delivered, they are flying and they are being launch. I would have liked to see the Sea- used— sprites flying. They have been flying since Senator Chris Evans interjecting— the Vietnam War but it would be good to see them again. Isn’t it the case that the larger The PRESIDENT—Senator Evans, you Seahawk upgrade project will be late be- can continue the conversation outside with cause of the delays with the FLIR project? the minister but he is trying to answer the Can the minister confirm that the Seahawk question. upgrade project, Air 9000 phase 3, will also Senator HILL—They are being used for be delayed by three years and will not arrive training purposes, and the integration of the before 2011 and that the budget has now final software is making good progress as blown out by $400 million? Isn’t this project well. What I am saying is that if Senator Ev- now shaping up to be a bigger disaster than ans wants to pick out one program, if he has the Seasprite purchase? found one program in the DMO that is still Senator HILL—I do not think that is the with difficulties, then he should put that in case. The existing platforms, whether they be context—to be fair to the department, to be the Seahawks or the Black Hawks, will have fair to the many very dedicated officials that to be upgraded in time, that is true. As I re- are working on improving performance call, phase 3 of Air 9000 deals with the Sea- within the DMO. hawks and phase 4 deals with the Black

CHAMBER 21812 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Hawks, but I think it is premature to draw This unrelenting war on drugs continued such dire conclusions as Senator Evans ob- last week when we put to the Standing viously would like to draw for his political Committee of Attorneys-General proposed objectives. I urge the honourable senator not legislation in relation to children who are to be so negative about these things. If he put endangered by the manufacture of ampheta- in a little time trying to draw just one aspect mines and amphetamine type stimulants. of defence policy for Labor, that would be a Unfortunately, in the United States, we are start. Then he might be making a more seeing situations where children are being worthwhile contribution to the debate. exposed to clandestine labs. Surveys have Health: Tough on Drugs Strategy revealed that 30 per cent of the children found at these sites have been affected by the Senator TCHEN (2.16 p.m.)—My ques- chemicals in the drugs or the drugs them- tion is to the Minister for Justice and Cus- selves. This calls for condign punishment. toms, Senator Ellison. Will the minister up- With the approval and support of the Stand- date the Senate on how the government’s ing Committee of Attorneys-General last Tough on Drugs approach is protecting the week, the Commonwealth will be enacting Australian community, particularly children, laws which deal with this very serious issue. from the ravages of illegal drugs? If the minister is aware of any alternative policies, will It is a shame that we cannot have a bipar- he inform the Senate what impact such poli- tisan attitude and approach in this fight cies will have on this important area of na- against illicit drugs. Recently we had the tional interest? Leader of the Opposition, Mr Latham, saying that Labor would support and promote her- Senator ELLISON—I thank Senator oin injecting rooms should a state govern- Tchen for his question, which is very impor- ment go down that road. But things did not tant for all Australians. This government has exactly pan out too well for Mr Latham. He taken unprecedented steps in relation to the changed his tune. We saw Labor premiers, fight against illicit drugs. Over $1 billion has such as Mr Steve Bracks in Victoria, say that been spent on the Tough on Drugs policy, they will not be adopting heroin injecting which fights illicit drugs on three fronts: rooms. We then had Mr Latham backtracking education for Australians, especially young to say that the comment he made in relation Australians, about the dangers of illicit drug to heroin injecting rooms in Kings Cross was use; health for rehabilitation; and, of course, a one-off. Mr Latham tried to sneak away law enforcement to reduce the supply of from Labor’s policy on heroin injecting drugs. Some very good results have been rooms. Yet a check of Labor’s web site at highlighted recently. The most recent na- 12.30 p.m. today revealed that the policy of tional survey on drugs shows a 23 per cent the Labor Party is still to support state gov- reduction in people using illicit drugs since ernment initiatives such as supervised inject- 1998. In particular, there has been a big drop ing places. Where does Mr Latham stand on in the number of drug-related deaths, from this? Is he for it or is he against it? Is Kings more than 1,100 in 1999 to under 400 in Cross just a one-off or does he endorse the 2002. That is a dramatic reduction in the policy that Labor still have on their web site? level of tragedy that overdose deaths have brought to people in Australia in relation to The government are very serious about the what is a very serious problem. fight against illicit drugs. Heroin injecting rooms are not the path to go down if you are serious about the fight against drugs. We

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21813 have shown how our policy has been work- When it came to assessment of the heli- ing. We do not for one minute say that the copters that were available, it was put to the fight is over or that the war is won but we are government that to achieve our objective continuing that fight. We have some runs on would be to purchase a helicopter that was, the board, which is evidenced by the figures in effect, not contemporary best standard. I have shown today of the dramatic reduction The technology, particularly in avionics, in overdose deaths and by the reduction in glass cockpits and that type of thing, is the supply of heroin that we have seen in changing very rapidly and there was a con- Australia. Amphetamines are an emerging cern that the helicopter we would purchase problem. We are addressing that, particularly would be very quickly out of date. Most in relation to children who are found at the likely if you were going to do that, consistent sites of clandestine labs, and it is appropriate with the fact that the balance of the fleet is that we have laws in place to deal with that. Black Hawk, to purchase urgently you would (Time expired) purchase an existing Black Hawk. That Defence: Defence Capability Plan would leave us with three different types of Black Hawk helicopters— Senator HOGG (2.21 p.m.)—My question is to Senator Hill, the Minister for De- Senator Chris Evans interjecting— fence. I refer the minister to the announce- Senator HILL—and, as Senator Evans ment by the Prime Minister on 19 December reminds us, phase 4 is updating the last, the 2002 that the government was to accelerate majority, of our Black Hawk helicopters. The the acquisition of additional troop lift heli- advice then came back from Defence to gov- copters. Wasn’t this commitment the centre- ernment that to procure the helicopters on piece of the Prime Minister’s response to the that basis would be unwise and that it would Bali bombings? Doesn’t the new Defence be better to take a little longer and get the Capability Plan in fact make it clear that the helicopter that was of the new standard. That new troop lift helicopters may not be deliv- would not only give you a greater capability ered until 2009, three years later than origi- with the additional helicopters you were pur- nally planned? Isn’t it also true that the chasing but also ease phase 4, which is the budget for this project is now almost double update of the balance of the fleet, to ensure what it was two years ago? Why does the that you got consistency at the best price. minister expect Australian taxpayers to wear That is why phase 2 and phase 4 are being a three-year schedule delay and a $400 mil- considered. That will mean that the helicop- lion increase in the cost of this project? ters will be delivered a little later than was Senator HILL—I think I have actually anticipated. My recollection is that we said answered this question once or twice before, late 2006 and that it might slip to 2007. That but I am happy to do it again. The govern- is my recollection without referring back to ment are committed to purchasing additional the detail. troop lift helicopters. I think, for the benefit That information was taken on board and of Senator Evans, that is Air 9000 phase 2. accepted by the government. So what we We wanted to purchase the helicopters as have is a competition. It has been reduced to soon as possible; we believe that there is a two players: Eurocopter and Sikorsky. We real need. That is why the Prime Minister are hoping for a decision on that, a recom- made that statement about accelerating the mendation from Defence, by the middle of purchase. this year. That will be for a helicopter that is

CHAMBER 21814 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 of the contemporary standard, and the deci- Taxation: Public Benevolent Institution sion will also take into account the upgrade Status of the balance of the fleet in the most cost- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (2.27 effective way and in the way to achieve the p.m.)—My question is addressed to the Min- best capability. I respectfully put to the Sen- ister for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer, ate that that is a very sensible way to ap- Senator Coonan. Is the minister aware that proach this project. the Taxation Office is withdrawing public Senator HOGG—Mr President, I ask a benevolent institution status from a range of supplementary question. Minister, you did groups in the health and disability sector not address the part of my question which from 1 April this year? This means that em- went to the almost doubling of the cost of the ployees of organisations in my home state project from its original price two years ago. such as the Julia Farr Centre and the Institute Further, isn’t it the case that the increase in of Medical and Veterinary Science will face the budget has been caused by the marinisa- a significant decline in their after tax income. tion program which is to protect the helicop- Does the minister agree with the Prime Min- ters from rusting in maritime conditions? ister’s comment last week: Wasn’t the helicopter always designed to ... it shouldn’t happen, I mean people working in operate in a maritime environment? Who that sector, large numbers of people shouldn’t pay forgot to include this most basic element in more tax, that’s not the intention. the program costs in the original budget? When will this government implement the Senator HILL—I have answered this recommendations of the Democrat initiated question before as well. It is true that the cost inquiry into charities in 2001 and change the has increased, but the capability has in- 80-year-old, outdated definition of ‘public creased as well. To be fair, if you are going benevolent institution’ in order to resolve to accuse somebody of making a mistake you that uncertainty and, indeed, the distress that should acknowledge the fact that what is the ATO is causing some people? being costed now has greater capability, in Senator COONAN—I thank Senator particular the flexibility for maritime opera- Stott Despoja, who has outlined a serious tions, than what was included in the first es- issue that is of concern to the government. timate back in 2000. What we are interested By way of background, I should say that the in is getting the best helicopter we can afford Tax Laws Amendment (2004 Measures to provide support for our troops in the No. 1) Bill 2004 includes changes to the law whole range of functions they have, includ- to require charities, including public benevo- ing, in this instance particularly, protecting lent institutions, to be endorsed by the us from terrorist threats. I think it is about Commissioner of Taxation in order to access time now, after eight years in opposition, that all the relevant tax concessions. But it is a the Labor Party started telling us what their well-established principle of the existing alternative is. Are they going to invest more case law that a government body is not a money in capability for the ADF, or are they charity or a public benevolent institution. going to continually knock the upgrades of Whether an entity is a government body or this government? Yesterday we had them not depends on whether it is actually subject knocking the tanks; today we have got them to government control, and I think that some knocking the helicopters. (Time expired) of the institutions Senator Stott Despoja mentioned may well be. I stress that the en-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21815 dorsement legislation will not affect the eli- been brought to the attention of the govern- gibility of government bodies to claim tax ment. As I said at the start of my answer, I do concessions. think that Senator Stott Despoja has identi- Should endorsement not proceed, gov- fied an issue that is of some concern and we ernment bodies would still be prohibited currently have it under consideration. from claiming these concessions through Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Mr Presi- self-assessment. An entity must already meet dent, I ask a supplementary question. I thank a number of existing conditions in order to the minister for her answer. Don’t the ex- be entitled to claim tax concessions through emptions she has just outlined highlight the self-assessment, and there is no intention to difficulty and the problems that we now have change these conditions. This means that if with this outdated definition of ‘public bean entity is eligible to claim a concession nevolent institution’? Given that these through self-assessment under the current changes are due to take place from 1 April, law it will be able to be endorsed when the how much additional tax is the government measure takes effect on 1 July. I would also expecting as a consequence of those note that certain government bodies may changes? In response to the minister’s com- qualify for status as a DGR, a deductible gift ments about the changes that have been an- recipient, and so be able to receive tax- nounced by the Treasurer in relation to em- deductible donations and access GST con- ployees of public hospitals and public ambu- cessions as a deductible gift entity. The lance services, why have those changes been Treasurer has recently announced, and the made when they have not been made for tax office has recently confirmed, that, for other employees of the vital third sector sup- instance, individual volunteer fire brigades port organisations and services to which I are able to be endorsed to receive tax- referred? deductible gifts. In addition, the government Senator COONAN—I thank Senator has recently legislated to allow all public Stott Despoja for that supplementary ques- hospitals to access the $17,000 capped fringe tion. I doubt I will get through all of the is- benefits tax exemption even when they do sues that she has raised. I would be very not qualify as a public benevolent institution happy to provide a brief or some further in- and has announced its intention to extend formation. The important point is to empha- this concession to public ambulance services sise that the structure of the law—the from 1 April 2004. endorsement procedure—has been changed The point about Senator Stott Despoja’s so that to access the tax concessions there question is that the change to the government will be a status attached to the Australian status of bodies, and some have been business number. It will allow greater changed in South Australia, is a decision that scrutiny of the use of tax concessions by the South Australian government has made. charities and public benevolent institutions. If it wants to run these bodies then the bodies Overall, what we are aiming to do is improve become government entities and, under the public confidence in the provision of tax law, which has not changed—that is, the support to the charitable sector. That was the definition has not changed—they are no whole point of the review of the charitable longer public benevolent institutions and sector—to make these structural changes. hence are not entitled to some of the special Anomalies or problems are something that, tax concessions that public benevolent insti- once brought to the government’s attention, tutions or charities receive. The issue has we will look at.

CHAMBER 21816 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Taxation: Deductible Gift Recipient Status up because of the need for a legislative Senator MACKAY (2.33 p.m.)—My amendment. Obviously, because of the legis- question is to Senator Coonan, the Minister lative program it is not easy to get these for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer. Is the things brought on quickly. We had asked the minister aware that an organisation called the Senate to allow this to be done by way of Constitution Education Fund has been send- regulation and that was refused. Many in- ing out promotional material claiming that it stances have been brought to my attention of has had deductible gift recipient status since the proper charitable purposes of deductible June last year? Can the minister confirm that gift recipients being held up and this very the Constitution Education Fund does not yet important public purpose not being allowed have deductible gift recipient status and will to proceed because of the Senate’s obstruc- not have that status unless the Taxation Laws tion in that it has to have a legislative Amendment Bill (No. 7) 2003, as introduced amendment for every single one that is on 26 June 2003, is agreed to by the parlia- listed. Far from being an efficient way of ment? In light of this fact, does the minister doing things, the Senate has entrenched a agree that the Constitution Education Fund is cumbersome process that holds up the very misleading donors in promoting itself as hav- purpose for which these things are brought ing DGR status? What action will the minis- into being. ter now take on this misrepresentation of Senator MACKAY—I have a supple- taxation status? mentary question. I draw the minister’s at- Senator COONAN—I thank Senator tention to a press release issued by her and Mackay for the question. Obviously, I am not headed ‘Deductibility of gifts to the Consti- in a position to comment on the individual tution Education Fund,’ issued 20 June 2003. tax status of any particular organisation. Doesn’t the fact that Professor David Flint is What is important is that once an entity has a trustee of the Constitution Education Fund an Australian business number and once it is and that the address listed for the Constitu- assessed for deductible gift recipient status, it tion Education Fund is the same as that for is possible, as I understand it, for it to elicit Australians for a Constitutional Monarchy, donations. It is certainly not misleading for which Professor Flint also chairs, indicate there to be an announcement or a holding out that the CEF is an overtly political organisa- that this legislation is forthcoming. Strictly tion misleading potential donors about its tax speaking, what you could say is that until the status? Is it government policy to provide legislation is passed it might not be wise for generous tax benefits for donors to organisa- them to do this. But there are circumstances tions that share the Prime Minister’s political where it is entirely appropriate. I know one objectives whilst removing beneficial tax case of an entity that was to assist Bali vic- treatment from staff of community organisa- tims, and deductions were allowed to be tions providing care to disabled children? given before the legislation had endorsed it. What do these two tax decisions reveal about the Howard government’s political priori- It is a matter that this chamber probably ties? should revisit. The Senate saw fit to refuse, other than by way of legislative amendment, Senator COONAN—To the extent that the listing of deductible gift recipients. That Senator Mackay suggests that there is some to me seemed to be extremely short sighted. improper purpose in approving a deductible Very important charitable purposes are held gift recipient, she is entirely wrong and I am not going to comment upon the individual

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21817 circumstances that went to a decision relat- forward because of the forward thinking of ing to any individual taxpayer or the circum- the Howard government. Members on both stances under which deductible gift recipient sides of the house would realise that our status may or may not have been granted to mandatory renewable energy target scheme that institution. The press release stands for has been responsible for the burgeoning re- itself and I am certainly not going to go be- newable energy sector in Australia. As re- hind the individual circumstances of the de- quired by the enabling legislation, a review ductible gift recipient status. You will find of the scheme was conducted last year and dozens of my press releases in relation to the government tabled the report in January this. It is interesting that Senator Mackay this year. We remain committed to the man- seeks to impugn the motives of a legitimate datory renewable energy target and we are deductible gift recipient in circumstances very carefully considering our response in where she has no comment whatsoever about the context of formulating Australia’s for- in excess of $6,000 a day trousered by the ward strategy on climate change and energy Labor Party from the Centenary House policy. In contrast, Labor’s approach has rent.(Time expired) been fairly predictable—and predictably Environment: Renewable Energy slipshod. Labor nominated a new target without consideration of the cost to consum- Senator LEES (2.39 p.m.)—My question ers or high energy users who ultimately pay is to Senator Ian Macdonald, Minister repre- for this scheme. senting the Minister for the Environment and Heritage. I ask the minister why there is still As I said, that reflects Labor’s new ap- no announcement of a new mandatory re- proach to policy. It has had no new policies newable energy target by the government. since 1996 and we are now seeing a return to The MRET report was presented when we the old ways of Labor letting special interest were not sitting, back in January. I ask the groups dictate its policy. I can tell Senator minister why more and more money is being Lees again that the mandatory renewable poured into the coal industry but nothing is energy target review is being closely consid- said about renewable energy. Specifically, ered by the government and I expect that a will the environment minister insist on an decision in relation to that will be made in increase in the mandatory renewable energy the not too distant future. I might also say, target and will the government commit to a while I am on my feet, that one of the renew- realistic target that will give a boost to these able energy sources in Australia could be the industries or do they plan to just keep fund- waste product from the timber industry. ing coal research? I noticed the geoseques- Senator Boswell—And from sugar cane. tration announcement today. The renewable Senator IAN MACDONALD—And industries do not want any money. They want from sugar cane. Senator Boswell, thank you a new target set very quickly. for reminding me of that. There are real Senator IAN MACDONALD—I thank benefits to Australia if we use renewable Senator Lees for her question. She would be energy and I am a bit disturbed that at times aware, as all senators would be aware, that some of the senators in this chamber hesitate the Howard government is very keen and about using offcuts and waste from the tim- very much to the fore in promoting renew- ber industry—wood that has already been able energy. Renewable sources such as so- used for another process—in renewable en- lar, wind and hydro have taken great steps ergy. I hope that all senators in this chamber

CHAMBER 21818 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 will assist the timber industry in making sure cided that the pig, the size of a house, which that those waste products from timber are featured in the original campaign would useable. As Senator Boswell has said, the make voters connect the image with federal sugar industry is diversifying and readjust- government ‘pork-barrelling’ or telling ing. It wants to look to its own future from ‘porkies’ as reported in the Financial Re- its own resources, and renewable energy is view? Was it the officers in the Government one of the very important aspects that the Communications Unit or the chair of the sugar industry will be looking at as it consid- Ministerial Committee for Government ers its future. Communications, Senator Abetz? Why was Senator LEES—I have a supplementary the error that $30,000 worth of single dollar question. I would like to pick up on the last coins, plus interest, would only partly fill the point that the minister made in his answer. If original, house-sized pig picked up only in we are going to assist the sugar industry we the last stages of the advertising campaign need to increase the target. If you are serious approval process? about your support for solar and wind en- Senator COONAN—The first comment I ergy—and hopefully cogeneration—then the would make about the question is that this target has to be increased. I ask the minister: government believes in truth and transpar- can he guarantee—or can he ask the envi- ency in advertising. ronment minister to guarantee—that the tar- Opposition senators interjecting— get is going to be increased and that we will The PRESIDENT—Senators, come to have the announcement within the next few order and allow the minister to answer the weeks? Does he agree that there are five jobs question. in these new industries for every one in the coal industry? Senator COONAN—I am quite certain that the Labor Party thinks that is funny, but Senator IAN MACDONALD—I do ac- this government actually takes very seriously cept that there are a lot of jobs in the renew- the need to have truth and transparency in able energy industry, as there are in all the advertising. It does show, of course, that you energy industries. The government does have cannot always believe everything that you to look at a number of issues. Cost is an is- read in the newspapers. The co-contribution sue, as are the various industries that com- ads needed to be realistic and they needed to pose Australia’s energy industry and the jobs portray what this government is doing, which that they create. These are all things that we is encouraging people to save for their re- have to look at. I am not going to guarantee tirement. The government not only encour- anything to Senator Lees today, but I can ages people to save for their retirement but assure Senator Lees that, very shortly, all also helps people who are low-income earn- will be revealed when the government makes ers to understand the value of patient invest- its response to this review. ment compounding over a very long period. Howard Government: Advertising It also encourages people to start to save at a Senator MOORE (2.45 p.m.)—My ques- much earlier age than otherwise they would. tion is to Senator Coonan, the Assistant I was able to extend the provisions last week Treasurer and Minister for Revenue. My so that those who otherwise would not be question is about the original superannuation able to get an employer contribution will still co-contributions TV advertising campaign be able to save for the co-contribution and which was revised by the minister. Who de- get a matched contribution from the govern-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21819 ment up to $27,500 and then a scoping pay- How much extra did it cost to reshoot the ment up to $40,000. advertisement to reduce the size of the pig? This government actually cares about low- Was the print material changed to reduce the income earners. That is something that the size of the pig as well? How big a pig would Labor Party, with its warmed over superan- you have to build to fill it with the money nuation ideas, does not seem to care about. It wasted on this whole process? only wants to provide a tax contribution re- Honourable senators interjecting— duction to help high-income earners. Senator The PRESIDENT—Order! Minister, you Sherry has stood in this place talking about might have to wait a moment until the Senate high-income earners, and that is exactly what comes to order. the Labor Party will do if it reduces contribu- Opposition senators interjecting— tions tax. On the contrary, this government is interested in co-contribution for low-income The PRESIDENT—I asked the Senate to earners. It is, in principle, a much more tar- come to order! geted way to encourage Australians to save Senator COONAN—The only oversized for their retirement. The ad campaign obvi- pig that I can think of is the Centenary House ously has to tell people about it. rent rip-off where the Labor Party had their Unfortunately, a lot of people who are out snouts in the trough to the tune of $6,000 a there working do not understand the value of day. Now there is an oversized pig, if ever I saving from a very early age. This govern- have seen one. ment has a duty and a responsibility to tell Health and Ageing: Policy the Australian public about good policies and Senator JOHNSTON (2.51 p.m.)—My good laws that we manage to pass through question is to the Minister for Family and this parliament with the effective opposition Community Services, Senator Patterson. Will of the Labor Party every inch of the way and the minister outline to the Senate how the with the assistance of the Democrats and the Howard government is providing greater Independents. It is a good policy. It is now opportunity and choice to mature age Austra- law and it is appropriate to tell the Australian lians? Is the minister aware of any alternative people in an appropriate way, which the ads policies? do, how they can save for their retirement. It Senator PATTERSON—I thank Senator is a shame that the Labor Party would seek to Johnston for the opportunity to answer his impugn a measure that is for the benefit of question. I know it is an area in which he is low-income earners. Senator Sherry, I would very interested. We believe that there has have thought, having regard to his fessed up been a need to create opportunities and mistake last week, would be keeping his choice for mature age Australians and it is head right down and not worrying about an something that the Howard government has effective ad campaign. taken very seriously. The government’s re- Senator MOORE—Mr President, I ask a tirement income policy is designed to pro- supplementary question. Didn’t the federal vide opportunity and choice. In particular, Treasury make an emergency call to the mature age Australians should have the op- Perth Mint at the last moment—because it portunity and the choice to continue partici- was the only mint still open at that time of pating in the work force or to re-enter the day—to discover that the actual savings work force. would not fill the original house sized pig?

CHAMBER 21820 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Participation in the work force in a full- best ones to determine their own retirement time job or in a part-time capacity in mature and they should not be told by the Labor years assists Australians to maintain their Party when they will retire. The government social contacts and networks, to live health- encourage people to take advantage of the ier lives—and the research data show that— concessions provided for superannuation by and to be more likely to be in a better finan- making additional voluntary savings or de- cial position when they choose to go into ferring their retirement. The Howard gov- full-time retirement. The Howard govern- ernment have also put in place other policies ment acknowledge the enormous contribu- which will improve the living standards of tion that mature age Australians make to our retirees. We have linked the pension to male community. But we do not only acknowledge total average weekly earnings. That is total it; we believe in assisting them to have more average weekly earnings, for the benefit of money in their pockets and easier access to Senator Sherry. concessions. If the state Labor governments Single pensioners are now $43 better off actually sign on so that people can have con- under this government. Every fortnight they cessions for travel, older people will have the get $43 more because we have indexed the benefit of other concessions as well. pension to MTAWE. We have reduced the But the most important thing we are as- tax burden on people over 65 through the sisting in giving them is opportunity. We senior Australians tax offset, allowing eligi- have given Australians the opportunity to be ble single older Australians to earn up to in about 1.3 million more jobs than existed $20,500 without paying income tax. That when Labor was in government. This has not gives them a tremendous opportunity to put been isolated to younger people. If you look away and save for their retirement. If you at the unemployment rates in 1996 for people choose to work and you are eligible for the aged 45 to 54, there was a 6.2 per cent un- pension and work beyond the pension age, employment rate. In 2004 it is 4.1 per cent. you can be eligible for a tax-free lump sum Under Labor, unemployment rates were 8.5 of up to $28,000 under the pension bonus per cent for people aged 55 to 59. What is it scheme. The Attorney-General has intro- now? It is halved at 4.2 per cent. If you look duced Commonwealth age discrimination at people over 60, under Labor they were on legislation, and the Prime Minister, in com- the scrap heap. Seven per cent of them were munity and business partnerships, is now unemployed. Now unemployment is 3.6 per looking at how we can encourage business to cent. So we have given older Australians and employ more mature workers. But when we mature age workers much more choice and look at alternative policies, there are none. much more opportunity to be in jobs. The There are three choices. (Time expired) Howard government have put in place poli- Senator JOHNSTON—Mr President, I cies to assist mature Australians who choose ask a supplementary question. Could the to continue to work past 65, contrary to the minister further expand on employment im- political scaremongering and the political provement for mature age Australians and cheap shots peddled by Labor— alternative policies? Senator Sherry—Work until you drop! Senator PATTERSON—Thank you very Senator PATTERSON—and peddled much, Senator Johnston. As I was saying, the over and over by Senator Sherry. The gov- Prime Minister’s community and business ernment’s view is that individuals are the partnership is working with business to find

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21821 ways to encourage businesses to employ application, how could the minister allow more mature age workers, a very important such a significant error to occur? point in giving more people the opportunity Senator IAN MACDONALD—I think to have jobs. When we look at the Labor Senator McLucas’s question was whether the Party, what have they got? There are three department has been looking at this since choices. We have Mr Swan with no policies June 2002— at all. We have Mr Latham with his $8 bil- Senator Carr—Just a little bit more than lion super blooper—and if that were ex- that. What about an answer? tended to all pensions it would have been a $17 billion super blooper. Then we have got Senator IAN MACDONALD—That was the tax trio—Mr Ferguson, Mr McMullan the first part of it, I thought, wasn’t it? Does and Ms Plibersek—telling the truth, I sup- she want me to answer that or doesn’t she? pose, about what Labor is going to do, and Does Senator Carr want to speak to Senator increasing tax. We are about choice and op- McLucas? That is what I thought the first portunity. The biggest choice for older Aus- part of the question was. Do you just want tralians is between this government, deliver- me to answer some of the questions? Perhaps ing genuine opportunity and real choices, that is how they do it in Russia, Senator Carr, and the opposition, with no policies, budget but it is not how we do it here. blow-outs and increased taxes. Yes, I think it is correct that the depart- Trade: Banana Imports ment has been looking at this for some period of time and, as Senator McLucas knows, Senator McLUCAS (2.57 p.m.)—My the revised draft report was released in Feb- question is to Senator Macdonald, represent- ruary this year. The report did find that the ing the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries unrestricted risk of moko, freckle and mealy and Forestry. Can the minister confirm that bug is unacceptable. However, the unre- the agriculture department commenced as- stricted risk associated with black sigatoka, sessing the risk of introducing disease which does not infect banana fruit, is now through banana imports from the Philippines considered to be within Australia’s appropri- in June 2002—that is, nearly two years ago? ate level of protection. After extensive fur- Is it a fact that a number of diseases found in ther analysis of scientific issues, including an the Philippines banana plantations are not assessment of additional risk management present in Australia and, if introduced, would options, the import risk assessment team has devastate our Australian industry, damage concluded that imports of Philippines ba- the environment and destroy our reputation nanas could be permitted, but there will be as a producer of clean green product? Can stringent mandatory risk management meas- the minister also confirm that, despite the ures recommended. work done recently to assess the risk, the risk assessment report released last month con- Senator McLucas also asked about Biose- tains a serious error that, according to his curity Australia’s record keeping of the ba- department, will require a reassessment of nana IRA team and suggested that it was the level of risk posed by these imports and unsatisfactory. This is a scientific report. force the publication of an addendum? Given Scientific reports work on the principle of the resources the government has put into scientists presenting a full account of their this assessment process and given the time findings and the evidence underpinning the government has taken to consider this them. The science of the banana IRA is already open to full public scrutiny. This is a

CHAMBER 21822 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 draft report. It goes out for public consulta- fruit from the Philippines does not pose a tion, and the purpose of that is so that the quarantine risk? Given the errors in calcula- industry and other stakeholders have the options undertaken by Biosecurity Australia portunity to look through a draft report and and the problems raised about the science to indicate if there are errors or other things applied by the agency in its latest assess- that should be looked at. I am very well ment, will the minister now direct Biosecu- aware that the banana industry has been rity Australia to undertake a full review of looking at this very closely, and that is the the whole import risk assessment process, purpose of this whole process. Biosecurity with banana imports halted until that review Australia does welcome the input if stake- is completed? holders do have new science or do have Senator IAN MACDONALD—There comments on the report. That is what it is all are no imports until this process is con- about. We need to have a look at everything cluded, Senator McLucas, so there is no that comes forward. question of halting something. Yes, I am I come from an area where most of the aware that there are scientists who have a Australian bananas are produced. It is a very different view to other scientists. The Banana efficient industry for Australia, a very good Growers Association of Australia came and industry for Australia. Australian bananas saw me, as they no doubt came and saw you, taste much better than Filipino bananas, and and they have made their case very well. But I think all Australian consumers, were it the that is what the whole process is about. Sci- case that Filipino bananas did enter into Aus- entists are a bit like lawyers: if you have 12 tralia at some time in the future, would go to scientists you will have 13 different opin- the Australian banana by choice because it is ions. We have to— a far better product. But we do have obliga- Senator Sherry—That is exactly right! tions under the world trading regime, as Look at all the lawyers there! senators will well know, and we are required Senator IAN MACDONALD—I did not to look very seriously at these matters. The mention the lawyers. If you did that with Philippines import a very great quantity, in lawyers, you would probably have 15 differ- volume and in money, of the agricultural ent opinions. It is a complex area. It has to be produce of Australia. Any threats by the worked through very carefully. No-one is Philippines to stop the import of Australian more concerned about this than the govern- agricultural products because Australia does ment. We want to make sure that we abide not deal with the question of Filipino ba- by our world trade requirements. At the same nanas in the appropriate manner is of course time, we want to ensure that this industry is something that would react very, very badly protected and that we do not allow in dis- on Australia’s primary industries. I have eases that could reasonably be excluded. So great confidence in Biosecurity Australia and this is the whole process. This is what this I am sure that they will come up with the import risk analysis regime is all about. appropriate result. (Time expired) (Time expired) Senator McLUCAS—Mr President, I ask Senator Hill—Mr President, I ask that a supplementary question. Is the minister further questions be placed on the Notice aware that significant doubt has been raised Paper. by two senior scientists about the integrity of the science upon which Biosecurity Australia has based its claim that importation of this

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21823

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: perts. This rigorous approach is essential and ADDITIONAL ANSWERS ensures any new listings of ecological communities are scientifically robust and defensible. The Defence: Equipment rate of listing under the EPBC Act is consistent Senator HILL (South Australia— with the twenty-two ecological communities that Minister for Defence) (3.04 p.m.)— were listed over the eight years of listing (1992- Yesterday, in response to a question from 2000) under the Endangered Species Protection Senator Hutchins, I indicated that Leopard Act 1992. tank ammunition was produced in Australia I was also asked how many ecological communi- by ADI. I was subsequently advised that in ties have been nominated to the Threatened Spe- fact some years ago ADI made a commercial cies Scientific Community and how many have decision to cease production of 105- been rejected. I am advised that there have been millimetre tank ammunition. Since that time, 27 ecological communities nominated since July 2000 and 11 of these have been rejected by the the Army has procured the ammunition for Minister on the advice of the Threatened Species the Leopard tank from overseas. This will Scientific Committee. A number of nominations continue to be the case for the new M1A1 are still being considered. Abrams tank. ADI does produce propellant Senator Bartlett also asked, “is it not the case that for 105-millimetre artillery shells; however, grouping together different nominated ecological this production is unrelated to Leopard tank communities contradicts section 189 of the EPBC ammunition. Act which forbids the consideration of any matter Environment: Threatened Ecosystems that does not relate to the ecological community that is the subject of the nomination?” and “why Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- is it that the Minister and the Scientific Commit- sland—Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and tee have adopted a practice that appears to con- Conservation) (3.05 p.m.)—On 10 March tradict section 189?” this year, Senator Bartlett asked me ques- In answer to both questions, the Minister has ad- tions in my capacity representing the Minis- vised me no, it is not breaching the Act. ter for the Environment and Heritage con- ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON cerning threatened ecosystems. The Minister NOTICE for the Environment and Heritage has provided an answer, and I seek leave to incorpo- Question No. 2453 rate the answer in Hansard. Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) Leave granted. (3.05 p.m.)—Pursuant to standing order 74, I ask the Minister representing the Minister for The answers read as follows— Science for an explanation as to why an an- Senator Bartlett asked “why is it that more than swer has not been provided to question on three years after the stronger national environ- notice No. 2453, which I asked on 8 Decem- ment act came into force that not even 10 eco- ber 2003. I advised Senator Vanstone, who is logical communities have been listed?” and “why the Minister representing the Minister for is it that after such a period of time so few communities have been listed?” I assume that Senator Science, that I would be asking her for an Bartlett is referring to the Environmental Protec- explanation today, but I note that she has tion and Biodiversity and Conservation Act 1999 already left the chamber. It has been 107 (EPBC). days since this question was put on notice, Consideration of listing nominations requires and I think it is about time that the minister considerable scientific research, public consulta- answered the question. I cannot ask Senator tion as well as consultation with recognised ex-

CHAMBER 21824 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Vanstone directly, because she is not here, tralian Constitution and these prizes’ to ‘visit but I would ask— the official web site of the prize scheme’. Senator Mackay—Did you tell her of- However, no search engine I used could find fice? any such web site. The only references to the Constitution Education Fund and the Consti- Senator FORSHAW—I certainly told her tution Education Fund prize that I could find office. She was advised in writing by facsim- were on the ACM site and in a press release ile this morning. issued by Minister Coonan that is in fact on QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: her web site. TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS According to the information on the ACM Taxation: Deductible Gift Recipient Status web site: Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (3.06 The Fund’s principal objective is to educate Aus- p.m.)—I move: tralians of all ages on the detail and workings of That the Senate take note of the answer given the Australian Constitution and the Australian by the Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- system of government. urer (Senator Coonan) to a question without no- This is a noble objective—nobody on this tice asked by Senator Mackay today relating to side of the chamber would disagree with the deductible gift recipient status of the Constitu- that. However, I am concerned about the bal- tional Education Fund. ance that may exist in the educating of Aus- In the time available to me I wish to lay out tralians when the fund itself is being admin- the case as the Labor Party sees it. The Con- istered by Professor Flint and Australians for stitution Education Fund Australia has been Constitutional Monarchy. The Common- sending out information about its Constitu- wealth identifies civics and citizen education tion Education Fund prize scheme. The ma- as a priority. The opposition supports the $32 terial being distributed lists the fund’s trus- million that has been put into the Discover- tees as Professor David Flint, Commissioner ing Democracy program—it is a good pro- Gareth Grainger and John Barrington Paul gram. In contrast to this program, or ‘com- Esq. The address for the fund is Kent Street, plementing’ it, as Minister Coonan’s press Sydney—the same street and postal address release says, we have the proposed Constitu- as the organisation Australians for Constitu- tion Education Fund prize program. This is tional Monarchy, whose national convener is administered by Australians for Constitu- Professor David Flint. This material states, tional Monarchy and with judging panels to inter alia: ‘be announced’ but selected from ‘distin- In June 2003, the Federal Government granted tax guished Australians’. There is no indication deductibility for all donations to the Fund to the as to who they are. There are a number of value of $2 or more. prize categories with different sections for A quick check of the Australian Taxation public speaking, web site design and essay Office web site shows that in fact the fund writing. I am very intrigued with respect to does not have deductable gift recipient, the essay question. According to the web DGR, status. The Constitution Education site, students will be asked to imagine that Fund prize scheme was launched at the Aus- they are an adviser to the Prime Minister and tralians for Constitutional Monarchy national then provide a: conference in October 2002. The Australians 500 word factual scenario for an hypothetical for Constitutional Monarchy web site tells constitutional crisis to be inserted here. those wanting ‘more information on the Aus-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21825

I wonder what that hypothetical constitu- Senator Mackay—You’re a republican. tional crisis will be. The year 1975 springs to Senator EGGLESTON—I am a republi- mind. What will the winners of the Constitu- can, as you say. I am quite committed to that tion Education Fund prize program receive? cause. But I respect the right of other people There are a few categories and a number of to hold different points of view. Professor prizes, but my favourite is the prize for the Flint certainly is a committed monarchist. I winner of the secondary public speaking sec- respect the fact that, as somebody who is tion. That lucky student will get: involved in considering our Constitution, ... an all expense paid ten day holiday for a family Professor Flint, and his organisation, should of four to the Palace of Westminster in the United be able to encourage debate on the Constitu- Kingdom and the Constitution Center in Philadel- tion. That is the purpose of this organisation. phia. The fact that they are offering a prize for an Senator Sherry—We’re subsidising this! essay or a submission on the Constitution Senator MACKAY—That’s right, Sena- surely is a good thing because it provokes tor Sherry. Senator Coonan said on 20 June public debate and consideration of our Con- 2003 that she would introduce legislation as stitution and whether or not our Constitution soon as practicable to give effect to her an- in its present form is appropriate to the needs nouncement that this organisation would be of Australia, as we are today. granted deductable gift recipient status. This Professor Flint travels around Australia. I makes me very angry. I am not sure that the suppose this is one of Senator Mackay’s minister should even be presuming that the points, because she raised it in estimates. In Senate will pass this legislation. I call on the estimates she raised the issue of whether or minister and the government to thoroughly not when he was in other cities he might not investigate this issue to ensure that there are sometimes do business for the Australians clear and valid grounds for granting DGR for Constitutional Monarchy movement. One status to this Constitution Education Fund, has to wonder whether or not the President before the legislation comes back before the of the ACTU, for example, who travels Senate. I also call on the minister to act ur- around Australia quite often on behalf of the gently to stop Professor Flint from continu- union movement, does work for the Austra- ing to mislead potential donors by promising lian Labor Party. I do not think there is a real that his fund holds DGR status when it does issue there or that Professor Flint, in his pri- not at this point in time and may never de- vate time, should not be able to carry out pending on the will of the Senate. private activities. Senator EGGLESTON (Western Austra- The broad issue is that Australians are not lia) (3.11 p.m.)—This is a thinly disguised aware enough of the way in which we are attack on Professor David Flint. That is the governed. There is not a detailed understand- whole purpose of this issue. It is not any- ing of our Constitution. We on this side of thing, really, to do with the group being able the house, the Howard government, believe to claim tax deductability. That is very false that Australians should be encouraged— outrage. Professor Flint is a very outstanding schoolchildren in particular—to have a public servant. He is Chairman of the Austra- greater understanding of our Constitution lian Broadcasting Authority and, it happens, and our mode of government. Without doubt coincidentally, the National Convenor of Professor Flint’s organisation is encouraging Australians for Constitutional Monarchy. people to think about our Constitution and its

CHAMBER 21826 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 form. I do not see anything inappropriate recipient status to the volunteer firefighters whatsoever about this organisation being and certain aspects of public hospital opera- able to claim tax deductable status for its tion—ambulance services, for example. I activities. I am sure that Senator Mackay and might say in respect of ambulance services Senator Sherry would welcome any organi- that that deductible gift status recognition sation which promoted a greater understand- occurred after a strong campaign run by my ing of Australia’s Constitution, and that is colleague Mr Cox in the other place. He what this organisation is doing. pointed out that it was unfair and unreason- Children in the United States and South able for, in this case, ambulance services to Africa know full well what their constitution be excluded from this status. There are a is. They understand and respect it. They have number of other organisations that are seek- a much greater sense of national self-identity ing but have not got deductible gift recipient than Australia has—although that is chang- status who perform important community, ing in Australia now and more Australians social and welfare functions in our society. celebrate Australia Day with a greater sense The awarding of deductible gift recipient of who and what we are and where we stand status comes at a public cost: it comes at a in the world. I personally laud that. I think loss to government revenue. Therefore it is that is an excellent development. But one of important that there is proper scrutiny as to the great gaps in our Australian education who receives deductible gift status. process is that we do not have sufficient edu- It was a surprise to the Labor opposition cation in civics and a sufficient understand- today to hear the answer of Senator Coonan, ing of our national Constitution. That is what the Assistant Treasurer, when my colleague Professor Flint’s organisation is seeking to Senator Mackay asked why the Constitution do: to encourage people to understand our Education Fund will be awarded such status Constitution. I applaud that. I think the case in legislation to be brought into the parlia- which Senator Mackay is making is quite ment. The minister’s claim that she had no fallacious. There is no issue about whether or knowledge of the proposed extension was not these people should be able to claim a tax somewhat of a surprise. As my colleague deduction for the excellent work which they Senator Mackay has pointed out, how can are doing. the minister not have any knowledge of this Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (3.16 when she issued a quite specific press release p.m.)—My colleague Senator Mackay raised dated 20 June 2003 headed ‘Deductibility of an important issue today concerning the pro- gifts to the Constitution Education Fund’. posed extension of the tax deductibility gift Apparently the minister put out a press re- recipient status to an organisation known as lease, and yet she claims she has no knowl- the Constitution Education Fund. This is an edge on this. I think the minister should important issue because deductible gift re- come in and correct the record—certainly cipient status is not awarded lightly in the she should correct her answer to the question sense that the organisations granted this put to her by Senator Mackay. status by the government via legislation have As I have already mentioned, it is impor- an important role to play in our society—for tant to remember that the tax status of these example, benevolent institutions. types of organisations comes at a cost to There has recently been a debate about the revenue. The Labor Party would like to know extension and the granting of deductible gift what the cost to revenue will be of awarding this deductible gift recipient status to the

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21827

Constitution Education Fund. The Labor bates, public speaking and essay writing. The Party accepts that there are many organisa- press release went on: tions—I have mentioned some: ambulance The Constitution Education Fund is designed to services and volunteer firefighters—who are complement the Government’s Discovering De- doing a great job in our community and who mocracy Initiative in schools. The primary objec- have and should receive deductible gift re- tive of the Fund is to educate students of all ages cipient status. But should the taxpayer be about the Australian Constitution and the work- subsidising an organisation such as the Con- ings of all levels of government. stitution Education Fund—which apparently Deductible gift recipient status will help the fund is to award a prize of a 10-day holiday to the attract public support so that educational and per- Palace of Westminster—through the award- sonal development opportunities will be available ing of deductible gift recipient status? I think for a broad scope of students, particularly for finalists who spend part of the Government’s it is highly questionable that the taxpayer Celebrating Democracy Week in Old Parliament should be subsidising holiday trips to the House meeting distinguished Australians. Palace of Westminster in London. When I What is exceptional about that? This is an look at that particular public subsidy through education program designed to improve the the tax concessions against issues relating to knowledge of young people about the work- volunteer firefighters and public hospitals, I ing of the Australian Constitution and about question the extension. (Time expired) the working of our precious democracy. As I Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) said, it was announced nine months ago. It is (3.21 p.m.)—The issue that has been raised only today that the Labor Party have some- today by Senator Mackay and Senator Sherry how decided that this is an inappropriate or- is nothing more than a thinly disguised attack ganisation to receive tax deductibility gift on Mr David Flint from Australians for Con- status. Of course, they are doing that because stitutional Monarchy. Indeed it is a thinly they want to attack our constitutional ar- disguised attack on the fact that, at the refer- rangements and, as I said, they want to attack endum held in 1999, the proposal for a re- David Flint and the monarchist supporters. public to replace our current monarchical The fact is that the Labor Party have never constitutional system was soundly defeated. got over the 1999 referendum to determine Recently we have seen Latham Labor say whether we were going to change our Con- that they are going to reopen that issue. The stitution. They never got over the defeat of Labor Party, in raising this issue, are about their support for a republic on that occasion, nine months behind the times. A few mo- notwithstanding a very strong media cam- ments ago, Senator Sherry quoted from a paign supporting the move to a republic. press release put out by the Minister for As I understand it, the proposal the Labor Revenue and Assistant Treasurer, Senator Party are now going to adopt is a fraudulent Helen Coonan, on 20 June 2003 in which the move, because their proposal is to have a minister announced that, from that date, gifts referendum at some stage in the future to to the Constitution Education Fund to the determine whether or not the Australian peo- value of $2 or more would be deductible for ple want a republic. Irrespective of what income tax purposes. model republic might be implemented after Of course, the purpose of this organisation that, they simply want to have a yes or no is to administer a nationwide competitive referendum—do you or do you not want a prize scheme commencing this year, 2004, republic?—completely ignoring the very that involves participants engaging in de-

CHAMBER 21828 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 important point that the essence of any Coonan said that the most important issue change to our Constitution is the specific was to improve the public confidence in the details of that change. In particular, if you tax system and to ensure that the principles are going to move from our constitutional of truth and transparency were maintained. monarchy structure to a republic, whether In this place today there are a number of stu- you have a republic in which you have a dents who would be very interested in those president directly elected by the people or a comments by the minister, because they are president who is appointed by the govern- here as successful candidates through the ment or by the parliament is the key issue. existing education process on our Constitu- We know only too well that the republicans tion, which is already taxpayer funded and themselves are deeply divided on the issue of which is integrated into the current education the method of appointing the head of state system—the Discovering Democracy pro- that would be put in place in an alternative gram. They are the successful finalists who constitutional arrangement under a republic. have competed in this process, written To simply have a referendum in which peo- speeches, competed amongst their comrades ple are given a choice—yes or no—as to on this particular point and have come today whether or not they want a republic is, as I to Canberra to share their knowledge of the said, a very fraudulent approach to this issue, whole constitutional process. They are the and it is an approach which deserves the people who are interested in the truth and strongest condemnation. transparency of our system. The Labor Party know only too well as a This is not our concern about the Consti- result of the last referendum that the popular tution. It is not our concern about whether view is that people, if they want to move to a there should or should not be a republic. The republic, want a directly elected president. concern that we have on this side of the But at least the Labor Party have some house is the questions we asked today spe- measure of sense—they are sensible enough cifically about tax deductibility—why one to know all the difficulties inherent in that particular organisation has been able to claim proposal. So they have moved to this fraudu- tax deductibility for a program which is lent approach of having a very simple ques- about education about the Constitution. The tion put up which really does not get to the only place I could find any real information nub of the issue and does not tease out the about this program was on the web site for very important issues of concern that relate Australians for Constitutional Monarchy, a to any changes to our constitutional ar- web site which I do not read often but which rangements and the structure that we want to I do read from time to time. When you scroll put in place. That is at the very heart of the through that web site, which has lots of very issue they have raised today. It is really noth- valuable information about the principles on ing to do with the deductibility of gifts for which that particular organisation is based— the Constitution Education Fund. It is simply and it clearly talks about defending the place an attack— (Time expired) of the Crown and opposing the attempt of Senator MOORE (Queensland) (3.26 minority groups to promote a republican p.m.)—I also rise to respond to comments form of government, amongst many other made by the Minister for Revenue and Assis- principles of the Australians for Constitu- tant Treasurer, Senator Coonan, in her re- tional Monarchy—you find out about the sponses to questions in the question time very valuable program that is being funded period today. In her responses, Senator through their organisation, the Constitution

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21829

Education Fund, which sounds great and, as Certainly we agree that it is important that Senator Mackay has pointed out, has some people find out more about our Constitution very noble concepts. It talks about education, and are involved in debate and discussion on developing public speaking and offering ex- it, but we do not need the cost of an individ- tremely generous prizes for people who are ual community group’s program, which is in successful in the process. The prizes include fact an outsourced education program, taking educational help and in particular, as we further funds from existing successful have heard, the opportunity to visit what they schemes. The Discovering Democracy pro- describe as the homeland, which is England gram must be maintained and that must be and the Westminster Palace. That is an op- what the public purse funds, and we should portunity I think a lot of people would gain not be encouraging individual private enter- much benefit from. What we are questioning prises to promote their ideas at our expense. is whether that process, which is linked to We hope that this debate about the Constitu- one particular group in the community, tion will continue. Should people have abso- should receive tax deductibility. lute confidence in what is being said about We are also questioning whether in fact their tax system? Absolutely. (Time expired) they have got it. In a system which we have Question agreed to. been told is based on truth and transparency, Taxation: Public Benevolent Institution and having read the web site and having seen Status a copy of Senator Coonan’s press release, I Senator CHERRY (Queensland) (3.30 would immediately presume that if I made p.m.)—I move: the open choice to donate to that program I would have tax deductibility. We do not be- That the Senate take note of the answer given lieve that is actually accurate at this point in by the Minister for Revenue and Assistant Treas- urer (Senator Coonan) to a question without no- time. That is certainly a worry in terms of the tice asked by Senator Stott Despoja today relating very values on which the whole process is to the public benevolent institution status of based, which are, we believe, truth and charities. transparency. The question concerned the public benevo- Also, on other questions that were asked lent institution status for tax treatment and a of Senator Coonan on the issue of an adver- range of South Australian institutions and tising campaign about superannuation co- other institutions around Australia whose contributions, we were unable to get a clear status is currently being reviewed. It is par- answer as to specifically how much the cam- ticularly concerning because what is coming paign cost and, if there was a reshoot of the through in these various decisions—I think it advertisement, how much that cost. The is- was noted in Senator Coonan’s answer—is sues of truth and transparency must be the that, as a result of a recent court decision, if basis of our democratic system. Certainly an institution is found to have a link with a they must be the values which the people state government then it is essentially going who are in this chamber now, learning about to lose its PBI status. The tax office’s view— democracy, must be able to accept are the now confirmed in a court case—is that you basis of our democratic process and the Con- cannot be a public benevolent institution and stitution. If we cannot get a straight answer a government institution at the same time. on how much something like that cost and Some of these areas get very dicey. One of have a matter like that taken seriously, ques- the examples that Senator Stott Despoja used tions must be raised.

CHAMBER 21830 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 was the Julia Farr Centre in Adelaide, which definition was updated. In fact, the charities provides services for those with an intellec- definition inquiry, which was formed as a tual disability. It is affected because the state result of negotiations between the Democrats government has the power to appoint some and the Treasurer, has recommended that it board members, and that is sufficient to be updated. It recommended that the whole make it a government institution for the pur- category be thrown out and replaced with a poses of tax office rulings. broader, updated category called ‘benevolent This concerns me enormously because charities’. A ‘benevolent charity’ would have there are an awful lot of organisations in this a much more comprehensive, more modern world, where the dotted line between gov- and more readable definition. A benevolent ernment and non-government is becoming charity would be a charity whose dominant less and less clear, that are doing genuine purpose is to benefit, directly or indirectly, charitable work with minimal or no direc- those people whose disadvantage prevents tion, control or support from government at them from meeting their needs. That recom- various levels. It highlights to me the com- mendation was made over 2½ years ago and plete inconsistencies which are now emerg- the government has yet to respond to it. Yet ing in the 80-year-old definition of ‘public the government, as we speak, is doing a re- benevolent institution’. view of PBI status for a whole range of charities doing quite decent and proper work Let us recall that the definition of a ‘pub- against the existing 80-year-old definition. lic benevolent institution’ was devised by the Bruce-Page government—Page was one of I am pleased to note that in Senator those forgettable Prime Ministers of the Coonan’s answer she says that this matter is 1920s—as the result of a desire to meet a now being looked at. I hope that the govern- then budget crisis and ensure that charities ment is looking at finally providing a re- did not get sufficient access to all of the tax sponse to the charities definition inquiry. It concessions that go with being a public be- does not matter which way it turns PBI nevolent institution. That definition has been status—upside down, inside out, or the incredibly problematic in the charity sector, wrong way round—the problem is that the because it is a privileged group of charities definition itself is so old, arcane and restric- that get access to PBI status. The wording tive. It is now causing massive problems. It used by the tax office to describe a PBI is does not keep up with the modern notion of extraordinary. It is such arcane language. A charitable work and service work. There is PBI, based on the Perpetual Trustees case, is now a sense of deep unfairness that any or- ‘a non-profit institution organised for the ganisation with any relationship with a gov- direct relief of such poverty, sickness, suffer- ernment is likely to lose PBI status. The frus- ing, distress, misfortune, disability, destitu- tration with this link has been found in some tion and helplessness as arouses compassion of the exceptions that even the government is in the community’. now being forced to agree to. This is the wording of the 1920s. It is so- The decision to give gift deductible re- cial policy which was left behind by this cipient status to ambulance services and fire country decades ago. Yet this is the basis on services highlights the increasing complexity which tax deductions are being determined, of this area of law. Serious fundraising and as we speak, by the tax office in respect of charitable work is being done in this sector public benevolent institutions. It is time the by government related institutions. It is frustrating because, as a result of this PBI defini-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21831 tion review, a whole range of eminent or- (d) expanding full fee paying places will have an ganisations doing good work will lose their impact on the principle that entry to right to have fringe benefits tax concessions university should be based on ability, not and, as a result, their workers will have a cut ability to pay. in their take-home pay. That concerns and Your petitioners therefore request the Senate act frustrates me. It also frustrates the sector. I to ensure the principle of equitable access to uni- hope that the issue Senator Coonan spoke versities remain fundamental to higher education policy and that any Bill to further increase fees is about in her answer is resolved quickly, rejected. comprehensively and thoroughly, and in such a way that workers in the disability sector are by Senator Stott Despoja (from 39 citi- not disadvantaged. zens). Question agreed to. Education: Higher Education PETITIONS To the Honourable the President and Members of the Senate in the Parliament assembled: the un- The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged dersigned Petitioners respectfully request that the for presentation as follows: Senate recognises that: Education: Higher Education • Fees are a barrier to education To the Honourable the President and Members of • Fees disproportionately affect key equity the Senate in Parliament assembled. groups The Petition of the undersigned draws to the at- • Permitting Universities to increase fees will tention of the Senate, concerns that increasing substantially increase student debt university fees will be inequitable. • Expanding full fee places will impact on the Your petitioners believe: principle that entry to university should be (a) fees are a barrier to higher education and based on ability, not ability to pay note this is acknowledged by the The petitioners therefore call upon the Senate to Government in the Higher Education at the reject the proposed changes to Higher Education, Crossroads publication (DEST, May 2002, as outlined in the Nelson Review. Canberra, para 107, p, 22); by Senator Stott Despoja (from 116 citi- (b) fees disproportionately affect key equity zens). groups—especially indigenous, low socioeconomic background and rural, regional and Petitions received. remote students—and note participation of NOTICES these groups improved from the early 1990s Presentation until 1996 but have subsequently fallen back to about 1991 levels (lower in some cases) Senator Crossin to move on the next day following the introduction of differential of sitting: HECS, declining student income, support That the following matters be referred to the levels, lower parental income means test and Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills for reduction of Abstudy; inquiry and report by the first sitting day in (c) permitting universities to charge fees 30% March 2005: higher than the HECS rate will: (1) The Government’s responses to the a. substantially increase student debt; committee’s Fourth Report of 2000: Entry b. negatively impact on home ownership and Search Provisions in Commonwealth and fertility rates; Legislation and, in particular, whether there has been any resultant impact on the c. create a more hierarchical, two-tiered university system; and

CHAMBER 21832 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

practices and drafting of entry and search over US$120 million in medical provisions. and/or humanitarian relief to 78 (2) A review of the fairness, purpose, countries spanning five continents effectiveness and consistency of entry and between 1995 and 2001, and search provisions in Commonwealth maintaining permanent medical legislation made since the committee assistance programmes in Burkina tabled its Fourth Report of 2000 on Faso, Malawi, Chad, and the Republic 6 April 2000. of São Tomé and Principe, (3) A review of the provisions in (iii) the experience of SARS in 2003 Commonwealth legislation that authorise shows the vital importance of the seizure of material and, in particular: seamless global coordination in responding to international health (a) the extent and circumstances emergencies, as a matter of global surrounding the taking of material security, that is not relevant to an investigation and the use and protection of such (iv) Taiwan’s efforts in containment and material; and management of the SARS epidemic in 2003 were severely hampered by (b) whether the rights and liberties of its inability to access the expertise individuals would be better protected and coordination of the WHO, by the development of protocols including the WHO’s Global governing the seizure of material. Outbreak Alert and Response Senator Sandy Macdonald to move on Network (GOARN), endangering the the next day of sitting: people of Taiwan, of whom 73 were That the Senate— killed by the disease, and also undermining the WHO’s own efforts (a) notes that: to stop the further spread of the (i) Taiwan is a thriving democracy of 23 disease, million people, with a world-class (v) the Ruler of Procedure of the World healthcare system, its achievements in Health Assembly (WHA) formally the area of health include the highest allow, through several mechanisms, life expectancy in Asia, very low for the participation of observers, as maternal and infant mortality rates, distinct from states, in the activities of the eradication of diseases such as the organization, and current cholera, smallpox, and the plague, observers include the Palestine and it was one of the first countries in Liberation Organisation, the Holy our region to eradicate polio and See, the Order of Malta, and the provide children with hepatitis B International Red Cross and Red vaccinations, Crescent, (ii) Taiwan has a strong commitment to (vi) Taiwan’s participation in the WHA as international health security through an observer, like the abovementioned provision of development aid in the precedents, will not involve the issue form of funds and expertise, and, of sovereignty, while this is limited by its exclusion from key international health bodies (vii) the WHO’s objective, as expressed in like the World Health Organization Article 1 of its Constitution, is the (WHO), this commitment has attainment by all peoples of the included sending emergency response highest possible level of health, and medical teams to assist after the 2001 as a specialized agency of the United El Salvador earthquake, contributing Nations, is an essential non-political

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21833

organ for international coordination (d) recognises that Taiwan’s participation as of health issues, an observer in the WHO would be (viii) support for Taiwan’s previous bids consistent with a fully-integrated global has come from many other healthcare system; and governments, including the United (e) looks forward to Taiwan’s participation in States of America, in the May 2003 the WHA as an observer, through Summit of the World Health consensus of all members. Assembly in Geneva, and the Euro- Senator Faulkner to move on the next pean Parliament, Central American day of sitting: Parliament, Belgian Chamber of Representatives, Dominican Republic That the Senate expresses its deep concern at House of Representatives, Uruguayan the continuing politicisation of the public sector Chamber of Representatives, and the by the Howard Government. Philippine House of Representatives Senator Brown to move on the next day have all passed official resolutions in of sitting: support of Taiwan obtaining observer That the Senate— status of the WHA, (a) opposes the recent recommendation of the (ix) public support of Taiwan’s Joint Standing Committee on Treaties participation in the WHO has, in against ratification of the Optional recent years, come from major Protocol to the Convention against Torture professional medical organisations and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading such as the: Treatment or Punishment; • World Medical Association, (b) concludes that the reluctance to ratify the • International Paediatric Asso- optional protocol is caused by the ciation, Australian Government’s indifference to • British Medical Association, human rights in Australia and that this indifference includes, but is not limited to: • Lancet, Britain’s premier medical journal, (i) the existence of immigration • detention centres in Australia and in Standing Committee of the Pacific region that imprison over European Doctors, 1 000 men, women and children, • World Congress of Traditional (ii) the acquiescence by the Australian Medicine, and Government to the indefinite • Philippine Medical Association, detention of David Hicks and and Mamdouh Habib at Guantanamo Bay (x) in 2003, a private member’s motion by the United States of America, and was passed in the Australian House of (iii) the human rights abuses being Representatives supporting Taiwan in committed in Afghanistan and Iraq; its 2003 bid to gain observer status in (c) expresses concern that not ratifying this the WHA; protocol would obviate a system of (b) commends Taiwan for its contributions to regular visits to be undertaken by international health, particularly in independent international and national assisting in developing countries; bodies to places of detention in order to (c) acknowledges the need for a fully monitor conditions and ensure that torture integrated global healthcare system and and other cruel, inhuman or degrading recognises the appropriateness of Taiwan’s treatment or punishment is not used; and cooperation with WHO activities;

CHAMBER 21834 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

(d) calls on the Australian Government to and report by 5 October 2004 on the ratify this protocol immediately. following matters: Senator Ridgeway to move on the next (a) whether any false or misleading day of sitting: evidence was given to the Select Committee on Public Interest That the Senate— Whistleblowing, the Select Com- (a) notes that: mittee on Unresolved Whistleblower (i) in the week beginning 14 March Cases or the Committee of Privileges 2004, Burma’s military government in respect of the matters considered in refused entry to United Nations (UN) its 63rd and 71st reports; and whether Human Rights Special Rapporteur, any contempt was committed in that Mr Paulo Sergio Pinheiro, regard, having regard to previous (ii) Mr Pinheiro released a report into the inquiries by Senate committees state of human rights in Burma in relating to the shredding of the Heiner January 2004, which recommended documents, the fresh material that has that all restrictions on freedom of subsequently been revealed by the expression, movement, assembly and Dutney Memorandum, and Exhibits information be lifted, and that there 20 and 31 tabled at the Forde be no further arrests for participation Commission of Inquiry into the in peaceful political activities, and Abuse of Children in Queensland Institutions, and any other relevant (iii) Mr Pinheiro was seeking to enter evidence; and Burma to conduct follow-up investigations before reporting on the (b) the implications of this matter for state of human rights in the country measures which should be taken: ahead of a meeting of the UN Human (i) to prevent the destruction and Rights Commission in Geneva in the concealment by government of week beginning 28 March 2004; information which should be (b) acknowledges that the human rights available in the public interest, situation in Burma remains extremely (ii) in relation to the protection of grave, with severe restrictions on political children from abuse, and freedoms and continued use of forced (iii) for the appropriate protection of labour, torture, child soldiers and other whistleblowers. serious abuses; and (2) That the committee consist of 7 senators, (c) calls on the Government to use all 3 nominated by the Leader of the diplomatic means to ensure that the Government in the Senate, 2 nominated by Government of Burma: the Leader of the Opposition in the (i) cooperates fully with the UN Senate, 1 nominated by the Leader of the investigation, Australian Democrats, 1 nominated by the (ii) heeds the recommendations of the One Nation Party. UN Special Rapporteur’s report, and (3) That the committee may proceed to the (iii) restores the rule of law to Burma. dispatch of business notwithstanding that not all members have been duly Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (3.39 nominated and appointed and notwith- p.m.)—by leave—I give notice that, on the standing any vacancy. next day of sitting, I shall move: (4) That: (1) That a select committee, to be known as the Select Committee on the Lindeberg Grievance, be appointed to inquire into

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21835

(a) the chair of the committee be elected (9) That the committee have access to, and by and from the members of the have power to make use of, the evidence committee; and records of the Select Committee on (b) in the absence of agreement on the Public Interest Whistleblowing, the Select selection of a chair, duly notified to Committee on Unresolved Whistleblower the President, the allocation of the Cases and the Committee of Privileges in chair be determined by the Senate; respect of its 63rd and 71st reports. (c) the deputy chair of the committee be (10) That the committee be empowered to print elected by and from the members of from day to day such documents and the committee immediately after the evidence as may be ordered by it, and a election of the chair; daily Hansard be published of such proceedings as take place in public. (d) the deputy chair act as chair when there is no chair or the chair is not COMMITTEES present at a meeting; and Selection of Bills Committee (e) in the event of the votes on any Report question before the committee being equally divided, the chair, or deputy Senator COLBECK (Tasmania) (3.39 chair when acting as chair, have a p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Ferris, Chair of casting vote. the Selection of Bills Committee, I present (5) That the quorum of the committee be a the fifth report of 2004 of the Selection of majority of the members of the committee. Bills Committee. (6) That the committee and any subcommittee Ordered that the report be adopted. have power to send for and examine Senator COLBECK—I seek leave to persons and documents, to move from have the report incorporated in Hansard. place to place, to sit in public or in private, notwithstanding any prorogation of the Leave granted. Parliament or dissolution of the House of The report read as follows— Representatives, and have leave to report SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE from time to time its proceedings and the evidence taken, and such interim REPORT NO. 5 OF 2004 recommendations as it may deem fit. 1. The committee met on Tuesday, 23 March (7) That the committee have power to appoint 2004. subcommittees consisting of 3 or more of 2. The committee resolved to recommend— its members and to refer to any such That— subcommittee any of the matters which (a) the provisions of the Civil Aviation the committee is empowered to consider, Amendment (Relationship with Anti- and that the quorum of the subcommittee discrimination Legislation) Bill 2004 be be a majority of the members appointed to referred immediately to the Legal and the subcommittee. Constitutional Legislation Committee (8) That the committee be provided with all for inquiry and report on 30 June 2004 necessary staff, facilities and resources (see appendix 1 for statement of reasons and be empowered to appoint for referral); investigative staff and persons, including (b) the provisions of the Sex Discrimination senior counsel, with specialist knowledge Amendment (Teaching Profession) Bill for the purposes of the committee, with 2004 be referred immediately to the the approval of the President. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee for inquiry and report on

CHAMBER 21836 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

11 May 2004 (see appendix 2 for this bill is required when sufficient mechanisms statement of reasons for referral); and already exist. (c) the following bills not be referred to Possible submissions or evidence from: committees: HREOC, Australian Reproductive Health Alli- • Higher Education Legislation ance, Flight Attendants Association of Australia, Amendment Bill 2004 Working Women’s Centres, Women Barristers • Telstra (Transition to Full Private Association, Women’s Electoral Lobby Australia, Ownership) Bill 2003 [No. 2]. Office of the Status of Women. The committee recommends accordingly. Committee to which bill is referred: 3. The committee deferred consideration of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee following bills to the next meeting: Possible hearing date: June 2004 Bill deferred from meeting of 28 October 2003 Possible reporting date(s): 30 June 2004 • Intelligence Services Amendment Bill Senator Sue Mackay 2003. Whip/Selection of Bills Committee Member Bills deferred from meeting of 10 February 2004 ————— • Corporate Law Economic Reform Program Appendix 2 (Audit Reform and Corporate Disclosure) Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Bill 2003 Name of bill(s): • Corporations (Fees) Amendment Bill (No. 2) 2003 Sex Discrimination Amendment (Teaching Pro- fession) Bill 2004 • Racial and Religious Hatred Bill 2003 [No. 2]. Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration Bill deferred from meeting of 23 March 2004 To investigate whether the provisions of the bill • Resale Royalty Bill 2004. meet the stated purpose of attracting more male (Jeannie Ferris) teachers to primary schools. Chair To identify any negative impact of the bill on the 24 March 2004 general operation of the Sex Discrimination Act. Appendix 1 To identify other measures that would be more effective. Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Possible submissions or evidence from: Name of bill(s): HREOC, Catholic Education Office, ex- Civil Aviation Amendment (Relationship with perts/academics in boys education field, teachers Anti-discrimination Legislation) Bill 2004 colleges, other education providers (independ- Reasons for referral/principal issues for ent/government), principals association. consideration Committee to which bill is referred: This bill seeks to amend the Civil Aviation Act Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee 1988 to empower the Governor-General to make regulations that may be consistent with the Dis- Possible hearing date: May/June 2004 ability Discrimination Act 1992 and the Sex Dis- Possible reporting date(s): July/August 2004 crimination At 1984. Senator Sue Mackay The hasty introduction of this bill by government Whip/Selection of Bills Committee Member has precluded appropriate consultation with industry and community experts. It is uncertain if

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21837

NOTICES That the Senate— Postponement (a) notes: An item of business was postponed as fol- (i) the inappropriate and unacceptable lows: public and private pressure applied by Federal Government ministers and Business of the Senate notice of motion no. ministerial staff to the Australian 2 standing in the name of Senator Forshaw Federal Police Commissioner, Mr for today, relating to the reference of Keelty, following his comments matters to the Community Affairs regarding security risks in Australia, References Committee, postponed till and 30 March 2004. (ii) that this constitutes ministerial COMMITTEES interference at the highest level of Privileges Committee Government; and Reference (b) calls for: Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (3.40 (i) the Government to respond p.m.)—I move: immediately to the recommendations of the Finance and Public That the following matter be referred to the Administration References Com- Committee of Privileges: mittee inquiry into staff employed Whether any false or misleading evidence under the Members of Parliament was given by witnesses representing Telstra (Staff) Act 1984, and in relation to the matter of the network fault (ii) the implementation of the rate and deterioration of the network, and recommendations of the Finance and whether any contempt was committed in that Public Administration References regard. Committee report into staff employed Question agreed to. under the Members of Parliament SUPERANNUATION: TEMPORARY (Staff) Act 1984, in particular the RESIDENTS recommendation that ministerial staff should be required to appear before Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (3.40 parliamentary committees where p.m.)—I move: critical or important information or That there be laid on the table, by the Minister instructions have emanated from a for Revenue and Assistant Treasurer, no later than minister’s office but not from the 5 pm on Wednesday, 24 March 2004, the docu- minister. ment detailing the actual revenue collected during Question agreed to. the 2002-03 financial year from the measure, COMMITTEES ‘allowing departing temporary residents access to their superannuation’ referred to on pages 1 to 25 Environment, Communications, of the document Budget strategy and outlook Information Technology and the Arts 2002-03 (Budget Paper No. 1). Legislation Committee Question agreed to. Extension of Time NATIONAL SECURITY: TERRORISM Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (3.43 Senator FAULKNER (New South p.m.)—At the request of Senator Eggleston, I Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- move: ate) (3.41 p.m.)—I, and also on behalf of That the time for the presentation of the report Senator Bartlett, move: of the Environment, Communications, Informa- tion Technology and the Arts Legislation Com-

CHAMBER 21838 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 mittee on the 2003-04 additional estimates be under-funding universities and driving extended to 25 March 2004. international and Australian students Question agreed to. further into debt. NATIONAL SECURITY: TERRORISM Question agreed to. Senator FAULKNER (New South JOHNSON, MS BENITA Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- Senator RIDGEWAY (New South Wales) ate) (3.44 p.m.)—I move: (3.46 p.m.)—I, and also on behalf of Senator That there be laid on the table, by the Leader Lundy, move: of the Government in the Senate, no later than 4 That the Senate— pm on Tuesday, 30 March 2004, copies of all (a) congratulates Australian distance runner, drafts of the clarifying statement which was nego- Benita Johnson, who won gold in the tiated between the Australian Federal Police women’s 8 kilometre race at the World Commissioner, Mr Keelty, and the Secretary of Cross Country Championships in Brussels the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabi- on 20 March 2004; net, Dr Shergold, and any other members or rep- (b) notes that: resentatives of the Government and which was issued by the Commissioner on Tuesday, (i) Ms Johnson is the first Australian in 16 March 2004. the 32-year history of the event to win Question agreed to. any medal in the race, and that she won by more than 50 metres, EDUCATION: HIGHER EDUCATION (ii) the world cross country meet is the Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) most competitive distance race in the (3.45 p.m.)—by leave—I move the motion world, as each country can send up to as amended: six representatives, and that this race comprised 100 runners, That the Senate— (iii) Ms Johnson currently holds the (a) notes: Australian 2, 3, 5 and 10 kilometre (i) the call by international student records, and leaders on 22 March 2004 for (iv) Ms Johnson developed her talent at international students to join the the Australian Institute of Sport country-wide student protest on 31 (AIS); March 2004 that is calling for free education, (c) notes the increased support the Government has given to sport and the (ii) the growing fee burden experienced AIS; and by international students, who were the first students to face upfront fees, (d) calls on the Government to ensure that the and AIS continues to be adequately supported so as to promote future Australian sporting (iii) the move of some universities to excellence. allow for an increase in the yearly tuition fees paid by international Question agreed to. students during the length of their EDUCATION: HIGHER EDUCATION courses; Senator RIDGEWAY (New South Wales) (b) condemns the Government for its policies, (3.47 p.m.)—At the request of Senator Stott which have resulted in spiralling student Despoja, I move: debt; and That the Senate— (c) calls on the Government to reverse its regressive user-pays policies which are (a) notes that:

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21839

(i) the following nine universities have (iii) on 22 March 2004, the students at decided to increase their higher Monash University exercised their education contribution scheme right to direct non-violent action to (HECS) fees for 2005, most of them protest against the university’s by the full 25 per cent across all decision to raise tuition fees; and disciplines: the University of Sydney, (b) congratulates the students at Monash Griffith University, La Trobe University for: University, Queensland University of Technology, Newcastle University, (i) rejecting the Government’s user-pays Deakin University, University of model of higher education, and Southern Queensland, Swinburne (ii) their brave action in the week University and Monash University, beginning 21 March 2004, undertaken (ii) only three universities have decided in the interests of their fellow students to decrease HECS fees for 2005 in a and the broader interests of equity and few disciplines, accessibility of the higher education (iii) increasing HECS fees will further system. deter students from low Question put. socio-economic backgrounds, and The Senate divided. [3.52 p.m.] (iv) 31 March 2004 will be the National Day of Action for university students (The Deputy President—Senator J.J. who will be protesting against the Hogg) Government’s ‘Backing Australia’s Ayes………… 6 Future: Our Universities’ policy and specifically against HECS increases; Noes………… 39 (b) supports constructive attempts by students Majority……… 33 to prevent the remaining universities AYES increasing HECS fees; and (c) condemns the Government for under- Allison, L.F. * Brown, B.J. Cherry, J.C. Nettle, K. funding universities for the past 7 years to Ridgeway, A.D. Stott Despoja, N. such an extent that universities are now turning to students to provide a short-term NOES increase in funding. Abetz, E. Barnett, G. Question agreed to. Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H. Buckland, G. Campbell, G. EDUCATION: HIGHER EDUCATION Carr, K.J. Chapman, H.G.P. Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) Colbeck, R. Collins, J.M.A. (3.47 p.m.)—I move: Coonan, H.L. Crossin, P.M. Denman, K.J. Eggleston, A. That the Senate— Ferris, J.M. Forshaw, M.G. (a) notes that: Hogg, J.J. Humphries, G. (i) university students are faced with Kirk, L. Knowles, S.C. increased tuition fees, text book costs Ludwig, J.W. Lundy, K.A. and living expenses, Mackay, S.M. Mason, B.J. McGauran, J.J.J. McLucas, J.E. (ii) Monash University has become the Moore, C. O’Brien, K.W.K. ninth university to increase its tuition Patterson, K.C. Payne, M.A. fees since the Government passed Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. legislation to allow universities to do Sherry, N.J. Stephens, U. so, and Tchen, T. Troeth, J.M.

CHAMBER 21840 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Watson, J.O.W. Webber, R. (ii) the international community to Wong, P. actively pursue strategies to assist in * denotes teller the peaceful and just resolution of the Question negatived. conflict; and SHEIKH AHMED YASSIN (c) calls on the Government to: (i) express the strongest condemnation of Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) Israeli assassination raids to the (3.56 p.m.)—I ask that general business no- Israeli Government, tice of motion No. 818 standing in my name (ii) urge Palestinian groups to show for today, relating to the assassination of restraint in response to these attacks, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, be taken as a formal and motion. (iii) work with friends in the international The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Is there community to redouble efforts to any objection to this motion being taken as bring a peaceful and just settlement to formal? the conflict in Israel and Palestine. Opposition senator—Yes. It is disappointing that it has been left up to The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—There is the Greens to move this motion in the Sen- an objection. ate, because it should have been the Minister for Foreign Affairs of this country putting Suspension of Standing Orders forward such a motion. The Australian gov- Senator NETTLE (New South Wales) ernment has so far refused to join the voices (3.56 p.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice, I around the world that are condemning the move: assassination that occurred this week. Kofi That so much of the standing orders be sus- Annan said that the killing contravened in- pended as would prevent me moving a motion ternational law and would not help the Mid- relating to the conduct of the business of this dle East peace process. British Foreign Sec- Senate, namely a motion to give precedence to retary Jack Straw said that the assassination general business notice of motion No. 818. was ‘unacceptable, unjustified and very I will start my contribution by reading out unlikely to achieve its objective’. The EU the text of Greens notice of motion No. 818. foreign minister, Javier Solana, said, ‘This It reads: type of action does not contribute at all to That the Senate— create the conditions of peace.’ But the Aus- (a) condemns the Israeli government for: tralian government has refused to condemn this action. (i) the assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, In fact this morning I heard that the Aus- by the Israeli army, tralian government had voted against the (ii) the illegal assassination of political United Nations Commission on Human adversaries, and Rights holding a meeting to debate a resolu- (iii) the continued illegal occupation of tion about the assassination. The UN resolu- Palestinian territories and the tion that they were to debate read: oppression of the Palestinian people; ... notes with grave concern the implications of (b) recognises the need for: such targeted assassinations, liquidation and mur- (i) a genuine commitment to a peaceful der of political leadership by the Israeli occupa- resolution in Israel and Palestine from tion forces on the overall situation in Occupied all parties in the conflict, and

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21841

Palestinian Territory, particularly the possibility Senator FAULKNER (New South of a fresh wave of violence ... Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- The Australian government opposed this mo- ate) (4.01 p.m.)—The opposition have de- tion even being debated. Incidentally, it also nied this motion being taken as formal be- opposed in the United Nations a resolution cause it does not capture the complexity of condemning the construction of the so-called the current security situation in Israel, the security wall that cuts off Palestinian villages West Bank and Gaza. The opposition from their fields and takes more land from strongly believe that terrorism in all its forms the occupied territories. The region has al- cannot be tolerated. It must be eliminated ready been pushed into further spirals of vio- root and branch. We extended bipartisan lence since the assassination earlier this support to the Australian parliament’s pro- week. scription of the terrorist arm of the Hamas The Palestinian people have suffered an il- organisation. We did so because we recog- legal military occupation for 37 years. The nised then as we do now that the terrorist Australian government and the Australian wing of Hamas is a threat to peace and sta- Senate must not remain silent. The Greens bility in the Middle East. Its members have motion in no way endorses the views or the refused to accept Israel’s right to exist behind actions of the assassinated leader of Hamas. secure borders. They reject the vision con- This parliament should not fail to condemn tained in the road map for peace for two violent action. It should not fail to stand up states—one Jewish and one Palestinian. They for peace because of a fear of false accusa- reject the notion that these two nations can tions about supporting suicide bombing. This live side by side. The military wing of parliament should condemn the assassination Hamas has declared that the purpose of every as we have and will continue to condemn operation is to kill Jews. suicide bombings. To sit mute after this as- The opposition have always believed that sassination is to imply endorsement for a Israel has a right to defend itself against ter- strategy that will result in more suicide rorism and act decisively within the law bombings. The editor of Rupert Murdoch’s against terrorists, but we are absolutely op- Telegraph in London described the attack as posed to any state resorting to extrajudicial ‘not an antiterrorist action, but more of a assassinations as a tool of policy. Let me be show killing’. clear: we oppose Israel’s decision to resort to The peaceful resolution of the injustices in assassination in the case of Sheikh Yassin. the Palestinian territories is central to so We also fear that the actions taken by Israel much global insecurity, particularly in the will lead to greater instability, violence and, Middle East. Australia has to do more to as- tragically, deaths of both innocent Israelis sist in achieving a just resolution. The refusal and innocent Palestinians. to condemn this assassination and the ongo- Neither bombings nor violence help bring ing occupation in Palestine will consign the about a just, lasting peace settlement for the children of Israel and Palestine to oppression Middle East. Bombings and violence bring and violence for many years to come. The nothing but retaliation, and retaliation takes Greens find that utterly unacceptable. There- us further from the peace process. In this fore, we are moving this motion rather than context we note that Shimon Peres, the Is- the foreign minister, who should be moving raeli Labor leader and former Prime Minis- it. We urge all senators to support the mo- ter, is reported to have said that if he were in tion. Prime Minister Sharon’s cabinet he would

CHAMBER 21842 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 have voted against the decision. He is also and on the issue, there are a few points that I quoted as saying: want to make. In my view the motion is un- Liquidating Sheikh Yassin won’t liquidate terror. balanced, it is inflammatory and it would be He is right. We on this side recognise that the highly unhelpful to pass it in its current form. conflict between Israel and the Palestinian If there were to be a serious and considered peoples is one of the primary causes of in- debate on this issue, then it would call for stability in the Middle East. A peaceful nego- substantial amendment to the motion. tiated resolution will go a long way to re- The government strongly supports Israel’s moving one of the chief justifications pro- right to defend itself from terrorism. Hamas vided by radical Islamist terrorists around the is a terrorist organisation, and I do not see world for their continued callous actions. that acknowledged within the motion. On The opposition continue to urge both sides 21 December 2001, the government listed it to exercise restraint in the current environ- as a proscribed organisation for the purposes ment in order to avoid the further deteriora- of asset freezing and, on 9 December 2003, it tion of an already fraught and fractured situa- proscribed the Hamas military wing under tion. We urge both Israel and the Palestinian separate criminal legislation which makes authority to re-engage with the peace process membership of that organisation illegal. and we remain of the view that both parties Hamas has used suicide bombers to target should as a matter of priority, together with and murder many innocent Israelis. Sheikh the United States, re-engage with the proc- Ahmed Yassin supported these actions. In esses set out under the road map to peace. December 2002 he told 40,000 Hamas fol- lowers: Finally, let me put again on the record the Jihad will continue, and martyrdom operations— opposition’s objection to dealing with complex international relations matters such as which of course we know to be suicide the one we have before us by means of for- bombings— mal motions. Such motions are blunt instru- will continue until the full liberation of Palestine. ments. They force parties into black and He therefore was an advocate of violence white choices—support or oppose; they do and violence against innocent individuals in not lend themselves to the nuances which are order to seek a political objective. In such so necessary in this area of policy. Further- circumstances, it is the view of the govern- more, they are too easily misinterpreted by ment that one can understand the response of some audiences as statements of policy by Israel. the national government. It is for these rea- Having said that, we nevertheless regret sons that we, the opposition, have denied this the use of targeted assassinations. We are motion being taken as formal. The opposi- concerned that the killing of such a high- tion will not be supporting the suspension of profile Palestinian leader will also lead to standing orders. further violence and loss of innocent life. We Senator HILL (South Australia— urge calm and call on both sides to exercise Minister for Defence) (4.06 p.m.)—The gov- maximum restraint. In the view of the government opposes the suspension of standing ernment, violence will not settle the Middle orders. It does not believe that now is the East dispute, and the long-term interests of time to debate this motion. However, in the both sides lie in a resumption of negotiations spirit where I notice that others have made under the internationally endorsed road map. some comment on the content of the motion

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21843

If the motion had been drawn in those ... we don’t support targeted assassinations, that terms then at an appropriate time we might we are concerned that the killing of such a high- well have been able to support it. We think it profile leader will just lead to further violence and would be very counterproductive for Austra- loss of innocent life. lia, in making a positive contribution towards He also said that the government strongly peace and stability in that region, to engage supports Israel’s right to defend itself from in debate in these terms or to support the terrorism and that Hamas is a terrorist or- motion that Senator Nettle has advocated. In ganisation. those circumstances we do not support the People in Australia are making statements suspension of standing orders. on this issue, as indeed they are around the Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- world. On behalf of the Democrats I want to tralia) (4.10 p.m.)—I begin by acknowledg- put on the record our unreserved opposition ing a comment by Senator Faulkner about to the use of targeted assassinations by any the use of motions in this place that deal with government, and in this case by the Israeli foreign affairs issues. As one who utilises government, specifically the assassination of motions to highlight policy areas that are Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. Targeted assassina- related to foreign affairs issues, I defend the tions are inherently unjustifiable regardless right of all senators to use that process. I also of the circumstances in which they are com- acknowledge that they can be perceived as a mitted. Suicide bombings which target inno- blunt instrument, to use his language, or that cent civilians are equally abhorrent and sometimes they may have inherent dangers, inexcusable. to use the allusions of Senator Hill. But I It is important to take the opportunity to also think everyone in this chamber is clever send a message to all parties in the conflict enough to recognise that the issue before us that resorting to this kind of violence is en- is an incredibly complex and an incredibly tirely unacceptable and will not be tolerated emotive one. We probably all have different by the international community. The Democ- and passionate views on the issue, but the rats deplore and oppose the use of vio- one thing that unites us in this place no doubt lence—whether it is by a state, an organisa- is a commitment to peace and a desire to see tion or an individual—as a means by which a peaceful outcome. to resolve conflict and to advance the inter- I concede that Senator Nettle’s motion ests of either side or to seek retribution. could have been more balanced, but I do not We note the widespread condemnation of know how we would achieve a balance that Israel’s assassination of Sheikh Yassin by would satisfy a majority in this place. Maybe leaders around the world. For example, the it is time that we had a debate here about this Secretary-General of the United Nations, complex and, as I said, emotive issue. Maybe Kofi Annan, highlighted the illegality of the it is the responsibility of the government to assassination. He said that he is concerned initiate that discussion and debate. I heard that such an action will lead to ‘further Senator Nettle say that the government bloodshed and death and acts of revenge and should have brought this discussion on—and retaliation’. European Union members have maybe there is an argument for that—but I expressed their deep concern at the assassi- have also heard Senator Hill and Minister nation, as did Russia and the United States. Downer state that they regret the use of tar- The United Kingdom Foreign Secretary, Jack geted assassination. Minister Downer said Straw, condemned the assassination as ‘un- yesterday:

CHAMBER 21844 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 justified’ and ‘unacceptable’. The United position has said it could accept the words Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, ‘absolutely opposed’. I think that would have summary or arbitrary executions has pointed been a good thing to bring to Senator Nettle out that the right to life and security allows before she brought this motion forward. The for no derogation. It must be applied with no fact is nobody in this parliament approached exception, in all circumstances, including in her to amend this motion, and that leads me times of emergency and internal unrest or in to the conclusion that nobody wanted this the context of the fight against terrorism. matter debated because of difficulty of it. Almost all of these leaders have expressed Senator Stott Despoja—That is not fair! the concern that this assassination will sim- Senator BROWN—I acknowledge the ply escalate tensions in the region and lead to Democrats; I am referring to the big parties. more spates of violence, a concern that our It should be the government, as Senator Net- leaders in Australia have also identified. tle said, putting forward the motion. It should Given the remarks of Palestinian and Israeli be couched in terms which are going to con- leaders in recent days, it almost seems that tribute to the global debate on this vexatious this is inevitable. On the one hand, there are matter. One of the threats that has come out reports that the Israeli defence minister has of the assassination of Sheikh Yassin—who I indicated that Israel will continue to pursue note was out of step with Muslim teaching its policy of ‘liquidating terrorists’. On the and the asseverations of Muslim leaders other hand, Gaza Strip Hamas leader Abdul elsewhere in the world who are opposed to Aziz Ranteesi has warned that Hamas will terrorist acts and suicide bombings—is a continue to attack Israelis. He is quoted as commitment by some Hamas leaders to ex- saying: ‘We will fight them everywhere. We tend the actions of Hamas internationally. will hit them everywhere. We will chase You only have to listen to news broadcasts them everywhere. We will teach them les- talking about link-ups with al-Qaeda to see sons in confrontation.’ All of these state- how fraught the escalation of terrorism is ments are frightening. They are truly of con- between Israel, Hamas and the Palestinian cern to the international community, which authorities and to see that the rest of the must do everything in its power to defuse world has to intervene—in particular, the these tensions and bring an end to the cycle United States of America. The need for that of violence. That is why we are all commit- is urgent, and I agree with Senator Stott De- ted to the roadmap. (Time expired) spoja that this parliament should be setting Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.15 aside time to debate it in a constructive fash- p.m.)—Firstly, I want to congratulate Sena- ion. tor Nettle on bringing forward this motion. It If the government agrees that it does not is one of the most difficult matters that can support targeted assassination, then let it be dealt with by parliamentarians anywhere bring forward a motion that is couched in in the world, and I agree with Senator Nettle those terms and the Greens will engage in that to sit mute after this assassination is not that debate. One cannot get away from the the response this parliament should adopt. feeling that there is no other motion here Senator Nettle has brought forward a motion because the government and the opposition which condemns the Israeli government’s do not want to engage in a debate on the assassination of Sheikh Yassin and I endorse matter simply because it raises passions in that, as do many people around the world— our own community. If we do not face up to including in Western democracies. The op-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21845 it and do not try to contribute to the global I think it is entirely inappropriate that a debate, and we are not clear about eschewing motion like this comes before the Senate, violence and terrorism from both sides and and I am very pleased that the Senate will targeted assassination—‘liquidation’ as it is not pick it up. Sheikh Yassin was founder horribly called by a democratic government and architect of Hamas, and Hamas has been like Israel—then it is terrorism; the same as guilty of killing many Israelis. Therefore, I suicide bombings in buses is terrorism. Other think a continuation of this debate is not go- people were killed with Sheikh Yassin. What ing to help the situation. It has to be solved, about them? It has got to stop, and the world but our taking sides on it in this parliament is has got to move to stop it. not going to be helpful. The terms and condi- When you hear that moves in the United tions have to be reached over there. I believe Nations to debate the matter were not sup- the Camp David accord was put up, and then ported by the Australian government, you see the roadmap accord was put up by the Is- a failure of nerve and a failure of will to in- raelis. There have been about three or four tervene. What we need is nerve; a determina- attempts to seek a peaceful solution, and they tion to stand up for peaceful resolution and a have all been rejected. So I do not think it is determination that Australia will be involved, appropriate to come in here and condemn because inevitably we are involved. What- one side. ever people might think of this motion and Senator Nettle—Or assassinate some- however they vote on the question now be- body. Well, it is. fore the Senate, it is healthy that we are en- Senator BOSWELL—There were 400 gaged in this debate and that we take part in people assassinated. So let us have a bit of it. In fact, that is our responsibility. condemnation for the other side. I am very Senator BOSWELL (Queensland— pleased that this motion will be consigned to Leader of The Nationals in the Senate) (4.20 the rubbish bin. p.m.)—I certainly do not support this motion Question put: coming before the Senate, and if it did come That the motion (Senator Nettle’s) be agreed before the parliament I would certainly vote to. against it. However, one thing I do agree The Senate divided. [4.28 p.m.] with Senator Brown on is that the continual killing on both sides is horrific and the world (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul wants to see an end to it. But you cannot Calvert) blame just one side for this; you cannot Ayes………… 9 move a motion that condemns just the Israeli Noes………… 47 government. The Israelis have lost 400 peo- Majority……… 38 ple in suicide attacks in the last 3½ years. It is one thing to turn the other cheek, but how AYES often do you have to get hit in the other Allison, L.F. * Brown, B.J. cheek? Surely, with the loss of 400 people, Cherry, J.C. Greig, B. questions have got to be asked. What do we Lees, M.H. Murray, A.J.M. do? How do we stop this? How do we defend Nettle, K. Ridgeway, A.D. our citizens? How do we stop our children Stott Despoja, N. being blown up in buses? NOES Barnett, G. Bishop, T.M. Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H.

CHAMBER 21846 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Buckland, G. Calvert, P.H. personal rights and liberties or delegate leg- Campbell, G. Carr, K.J. islative powers inappropriately or without Chapman, H.G.P. Colbeck, R. sufficient parliamentary scrutiny. Collins, J.M.A. Conroy, S.M. Cook, P.F.S. Crossin, P.M. In doing this, committee members place Denman, K.J. Evans, C.V. considerable reliance on the explanatory ma- Ferguson, A.B. Ferris, J.M. * terial that accompanies each bill, in particu- Forshaw, M.G. Hogg, J.J. lar the explanatory memorandum. The work Humphries, G. Hutchins, S.P. of the committee, and the work of the Sen- Johnston, D. Kemp, C.R. ate, is made more difficult where this mate- Kirk, L. Knowles, S.C. Lightfoot, P.R. Ludwig, J.W. rial fails to explain clearly the operation and Lundy, K.A. Macdonald, J.A.L. impact of legislative proposals. The result is Mackay, S.M. Mason, B.J. that the committee has to initiate correspon- McGauran, J.J.J. McLucas, J.E. dence with ministers when its concerns could Moore, C. O’Brien, K.W.K. have been met by a proper explanatory Patterson, K.C. Payne, M.A. memorandum. In most cases, after the minis- Ray, R.F. Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. Sherry, N.J. ter responds to a request for further informa- Stephens, U. Tchen, T. tion, the committee is satisfied that the pro- Troeth, J.M. Watson, J.O.W. visions meet its requirements. Webber, R. In a series of statements to the Senate in * denotes teller 2003, the Scrutiny of Bills Committee ex- Question negatived. pressed its concerns with the number of ex- COMMITTEES planatory memoranda that failed to provide Scrutiny of Bills Committee an adequate explanation of the bills that they accompanied. The committee has seen little Reports noticeable improvement since then and Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) therefore considers that a comprehensive (4.32 p.m.)—I present the third and fourth report on this aspect of its proceedings is reports of 2004 of the Senate Standing warranted. It is this report that I table today. Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills. I also The committee is concerned that it has to lay on the table Scrutiny of Bills Alert Digest continually seek information from ministers No. 4 of 2004, dated 24 March. that should be included in the explanatory Ordered that the reports be printed. memoranda. For example, it regularly seeks Senator CROSSIN—I move: information on retrospective or delayed commencement provisions even though the That the Senate take note of the third report. Office of Parliamentary Counsel’s drafting The third report of the Scrutiny of Bills directions and the Department of the Prime Committee goes to the examination that we Minister and Cabinet’s Legislation Hand- undertook on the quality of explanatory book specifically require explanatory memo- memoranda accompanying bills. As senators randa to explain such provisions. are aware, the Scrutiny of Bills Committee considers legislation to ensure that it com- Other matters that regularly attract the plies with appropriate civil liberties and committee’s attention concern the quality of principles of administrative fairness. It does information provided on the delegation of this by bringing to the attention of the Senate powers, absolute and strict liability offences, provisions of bills which may infringe upon legislation by press release and the reversal

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21847 of the onus of proof. In most instances, the of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, leaving officer responsible for preparing the explana- little scope for any final polishing of ex- tory memoranda appears not to have com- planatory memoranda. plied with the requirements set out in the The committee believes that steps should Legislation Handbook and the Office of Par- be taken to address the deterioration in the liamentary Counsel’s drafting directions. On quality of explanatory memoranda. After other occasions, although information is pro- considering the different influences impact- vided, it is not sufficiently detailed to allow ing on the preparation of these documents, the committee to satisfy itself that the provi- the Scrutiny of Bills Committee makes four sions do not affect personal rights and liber- recommendations in its report: further guid- ties. The only conclusion to be drawn is that ance should be provided in the Legislation quality control checks on the final explana- Handbook on the matters that the committee tory memorandum are inadequate or ineffec- wishes to see addressed in explanatory tive. The reasons for this inadequacy cannot memoranda; all relevant information on the be explained solely by noncompliance with preparation of explanatory memoranda the requirements of the Legislation Hand- should be consolidated into the Legislation book and the drafting directions or the guid- Handbook; an appropriately qualified person ance provided by those publications. should check an explanatory memorandum The committee is of the opinion that, al- before a bill is introduced into the parlia- though the Legislation Handbook provides ment; and, consideration should be given to guidance on a number of issues that would developing a course to train departmental attract its attention and comment, it does not officers in the preparation of explanatory provide sufficient guidance to enable a de- memoranda. partmental officer to determine whether pro- The committee also notes that private visions in a bill may infringe on the commit- senators’ bills are generally accompanied by tee’s terms of reference. The committee be- only a second reading speech. It was the lieves that an officer’s understanding of the committee’s consideration that these bills committee’s position on provisions that af- would be assisted if they were accompanied fect personal rights and liberties would be by explanatory memoranda. The committee enhanced if the handbook included examples therefore recommends that the Department of the types of matters that attract the com- of the Senate develop a set of guidelines to mittee’s attention in the Alert Digest and re- assist senators with the preparation of private ports. bills. Chapter 4 of the report identifies other in- In conclusion, the report highlights the fluences on the quality of the final explana- difficulties the committee has experienced in tory memoranda. The Office of the Parlia- its examination of proposed legislation when mentary Counsel found that the responsibil- the information provided in explanatory ity for preparing these documents is gener- memoranda has not been of a quality to suf- ally delegated to staff inexperienced in legis- ficiently explain the purpose and operation lative work who received little in the way of of the bills. However, the Senate will be guidance and training from their supervisors. pleased to note that it is not all bad news. On The other influence is the timing of the legis- occasion the committee has commented on lative program where the deadlines for lodg- explanatory memoranda that have effectively ing explanatory memoranda are the same as addressed the content of the bill, one such those for lodging bills with the Department

CHAMBER 21848 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 example being the explanatory memorandum of proceedings and documents presented to to the Customs Legislation Amendment Bill the committee. (No. 2) 2003, which did inform the consid- Ordered that the report be printed. eration of legislation and we felt was ade- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.41 quate. p.m.)—I move: The committee presents this report with That the Senate take note of the report. the expectation that it will improve the quality of the information provided in explana- I want to draw attention to the need for this tory memoranda, resulting in greater trans- legislation to be endorsed rather than set parency of the legislation introduced into the aside, as recommended by the committee. parliament. We will be sending a copy of the The evidence before the committee in sup- report to ministers, parliamentary secretaries, port of the legislation was quite clear. I will departmental heads and leaders of parties in not take very long on this, but I point out that the Senate. The committee strongly urges this bill—which has a complementary bill in ministers to consider its concerns and to im- the New Zealand parliament brought forward plement the recommendations contained in by the Greens spokesperson on health and the report. Surely, if that is done and those related matters, Ms Sue Kedgley—simply recommendations are picked up, the work of extends the right of Australians and New the Scrutiny of Bills Committee will be not Zealanders to know what they are buying. only assisted but enhanced. I commend the For example, it extends the right of consum- report to the Senate. I seek leave to continue ers to have better labelling of the chemical my remarks later. contents in foodstuffs on shelves. The main point is that consumers should be given the Leave granted; debate adjourned. right to know if the food for sale is derived Community Affairs Legislation from genetically modified stock. Committee As things stand, if there is more than one Report per cent contamination from a genetically Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.40 modified material in food, it is labelled. p.m.)—On behalf of the Chair of the Senate Europe is going to a 0.5 of one per cent stan- Community Affairs Legislation Committee, dard but, moreover, to a standard which Senator Knowles, I present the report of the states that if the food, such as margarine or committee on its examination of annual re- oil coming from canola crops, is derived ports tabled by 31 October 2003. from genetically modified crops it should be Ordered that the report be printed. labelled, even if it does not have genetically modified protein in the food. The reason is TRUTH IN FOOD LABELLING BILL that consumers want to know whether they 2003 are buying products that support genetically Report of Community Affairs Legislation modified crops and the spread of genetically Committee modified organisms. There is an educated Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.40 consumer population in Australia, as there is p.m.)—On behalf of the Chair of the Senate in Europe and New Zealand, which does not Community Affairs Legislation Committee, want to have genetically modified food pro- Senator Knowles, I present the report of the duction because of the inherent dangers to committee on the Truth in Food Labelling ecosystems and indeed potentially, because it Bill 2003, together with the Hansard record

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21849 is uncharted territory, to the health of the before the New Zealand parliament and we human community. will do all we can to progress it. I predict that Moreover, the evidence to the committee future governments will legislate exactly as is that the European Union will insist that the Greens are putting forward now. The foods imported into Europe have with them a only argument against this came from the clear statement either clearing them of hav- food-processing industries, the big indus- ing come from genetically modified sources tries. They do not want to label goods, be- or, if they have come from genetically modi- cause they know there will be consumer re- fied sources, tracing them back to those sistance to goods that come from genetically sources. So if we do not endorse this legisla- modified sources. How do you get over that tion and the government has no similar regu- resistance? Instead of going to clean, green lation or legislation, we have a double stan- and, hopefully, organically produced foods, dard within our countries of Australia and you deny consumers the information they New Zealand. On one hand, domestically the have a right to. That is the alternative en- unsatisfactory current laws will prevail and dorsed by this legislative committee report. I consumers will not know whether their food do not entertain it and I do not accept it. I comes from GM crops; on the other hand, believe the committee ought to have found when we export from Australia or New Zea- otherwise. But there it is: the legislation will land to Europe it will be necessary for there remain before the Senate and I will bring it to be a certificate saying whether or not the before the Senate at the earliest possible time foodstuff comes from genetically modified for debate. crops. European consumers will know, but Question agreed to. Australian and New Zealand consumers will COMMITTEES not know the genetic status of foods coming Australian Crime Commission Committee from our countries. Report It is time we caught up. We should have laws that are consistent with those in that Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.48 most fastidious market which is the Euro- p.m.)—On behalf of the parliamentary Joint pean Union. To not do so is to say that Aus- Committee on the Australian Crime Com- tralian and New Zealand consumers can have mission, I present a report entitled Cyber- second-rate information on their supermarket crime, together with the Hansard record of shelves to that which pertains in Europe. We proceedings and documents presented to the Greens on both sides of the Tasman maintain committee. that that should not be the case and that Aus- Ordered that the report be printed. tralian and New Zealand consumers deserve Senator McGAURAN—I move: exactly the same level of information when That the Senate take note of the report. they buy foods as do their counterparts in I seek leave to incorporate a tabling state- Europe. In fact, there should be international ment in Hansard. law which ensures that consumers have these rights. Leave granted. For those reasons, we believe the legisla- The statement read as follows— tion committee should have recommended The report had its genesis in the apparent prolif- this legislation. It did not, but the Greens will eration of available opportunities to commit keep the legislation before the Senate and criminal acts using information technology. The Committee had noted over a period of time that

CHAMBER 21850 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 there were several key areas in which these op- • the potential for crime in relation to Internet portunities were particularly evident, and wanted financial transactions. to assess what the Australian Crime Commission During the course of the Inquiry there were inci- was doing, and could do, about it. dents reported in the press which highlighted The terms of reference required the Committee to some of the issues canvassed by the Committee. inquire into and report on recent trends in prac- These included the proliferation of spam and the tices and methods of cybercrime with particular use of chat rooms by paedophiles to groom chil- reference to: dren for sexual purposes. (1) child pornography and associated The Parliament has already responded with the paedophile activity; introduction of the Spam Act 2003, to which is (2) banking, including credit card fraud and added the very recent government initiative to money laundering; and amend the Telecommunications legislation, the Crimes Act 1914, and the Criminal Code Act (3) threats to national critical infrastructure. 1996. These measures contained in draft legisla- The Terms of Reference are authorised by para- tion include the creation of a range of offences graph 55(1) (d) of the Australian Crime Commis- designed to prevent use of a telecommunications sion Act. The section lists the duties of the Par- device to transmit pornographic material, and to liamentary Joint Committee on the Australian procure a person under the age of consent for Crime Commission, one of which is to examine sexual purposes. trends and changes in criminal activities, prac- The Committee recommendations complement tices and methods and report to both Houses of these initiatives. Included among them are: the Parliament any change which the Committee thinks desirable to the functions, structure, pow- • a recommendation that the regulation of Inter- ers and procedures of the Australian Crime Com- net Service Providers be examined, and the mission. status of material held by them assessed; In 2001, the Parliament enacted the Cybercrime • a recommendation that the Government inves- Act, which amended a number of Acts and in- tigate partnerships for establishing a multime- serted computer and related offences in the dia education campaign on the safe use of Criminal Code. technology by children; The Committee wanted to examine the place of • a recommendation that Commonwealth State the ACC in this scheme, and to examine possibili- and Territory Attorneys General liaise to en- ties for prevention and detection to which the sure consistent cybercrime and related legisla- ACC might be able to contribute. tion within Australia in accordance with Aus- The Committee took evidence in Sydney, Mel- tralia’s international obligations; and bourne and Canberra, and heard from a wide • recommendations that both the Australian range of witnesses. Thirty five submissions were Crime Commission and the Australian High presented to the Committee, and have been placed Tech Crime Centre investigate the secure pro- on the Committee website. vision of general information on fraud trends From the evidence and the submissions, the to financial institutions, and, with other law Committee noted that there were four main com- enforcement agencies develop a national intel- munity concerns: ligence gathering strategy for cybercrime in the banking industry. • access by children to unsuitable Internet content; The issues canvassed by the Committee are • among the most important facing our post indus- access to children by paedophiles; trial society. Parliament and the government must • the regulation of Internet Service Providers; respond quickly to the challenges thrown up by and rapidly changing technology: the security of personal data, including banking and financial in-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21851 formation, and the protection of our children from They traversed a range of matters but, those who seek to use technology to prey upon overall, only a few regulations attracted them, are essential to the healthy functioning of comment, either in submissions or during the our families and our communities. public hearing. The report focuses on two of The recommendations in this report are intended the regulations: radio advertising and dollar to assist this process. disclosure. General advice is usually accom- Senator McGAURAN—I seek leave to panied by a general advice warning which continue my remarks later. alerts those receiving the advice that their Leave granted; debate adjourned. personal circumstances have not been taken Corporations and Financial Services into account. The Financial Services Reform Committee Amendment Act recognised that there are situations where general advice is given but Report providing the warning may be neither practi- Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) cal nor enhance consumer protection. The (4.48 p.m.)—I present the report of the par- amendment act inserted a regulation-making liamentary Joint Committee on Corporations power that could specify limited circum- and Financial Services entitled Corporations stances where the general advice warning amendment regulations 2003 (batch 6); would not need to be provided. It anticipated Draft regulations—corporations amendment that the regulations would only be made in regulations 2003/04 (batch 7); and Draft circumstances where the absence of the regulations—corporations amendment regu- warning would not have a material detriment lations 2004 (batch 8), together with the to consumers. Hansard record of proceedings and submis- The committee believes that the current sions received by the committee. disclosure requirement places an unneces- Ordered that the report be printed. sary and unfair burden on radio advertising Senator CHAPMAN—I move: compared with other, especially visual, forms That the Senate take note of the report. of advertising. According to evidence, under the current arrangement, the requirement to The Financial Services Reform Act 2001 was give a general advice warning increases the the culmination of a comprehensive reform time, and hence the cost, of a 30-second ra- project looking at the regulatory require- dio advertisement by some 50 per cent. The ments applying to the financial services in- committee recommended that the regulation dustry. The parliamentary Joint Committee governing radio advertising be amended to on Corporations and Financial Services has require only a brief general disclosure state- taken an active interest in the development ment. and implementation of this legislation, including regulations which now form an im- The second regulation that generated dis- portant and solid body of the financial ser- cussion was concerned with dollar disclo- vices reform regime. The making of regula- sure. In addressing this issue, the Senate dur- tions, however, is an ongoing process. The ing debate last December on the Financial government released its most recent set of Services Reform Amendment Bill agreed to regulations in December, January and Febru- a number of amendments which require the ary as batches 6, 7 and 8. The committee disclosure of items in dollar terms in state- resolved to inquire into and report on this ments of advice, product disclosure state- package of regulations. ments and periodic statements unless otherwise provided in regulations. In turning to

CHAMBER 21852 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 the regulations, Senator Ian Campbell in- lar disclosure requirements. Thus, the mes- formed the Senate that the government was sage remains unequivocal that the providers going to commit to changing the wording of of financial services or products must fully the regulation to, effectively, dollar disclo- disclose amounts in dollar terms. sure of fees and commissions and the like, The committee noted the number of wit- unless ASIC determines that for compelling nesses who raised concerns about the diffi- reasons it is not possible to do so. culties they may have in complying with the The wording of the various proposed strict interpretation of the wording of the regulations dealing with dollar disclosure is regulation. It accepts that there may be genu- in keeping with the government’s undertak- ine cases where dollar disclosure obligations ing. They share common phrases to the effect are inappropriate, impracticable or inconsis- that if ASIC determines that, for a compel- tent with the intention of the legislation to ling reason, it is not possible to state infor- promote efficiency and enhance consumer mation to be disclosed in accordance with protection. It understands, however, that with the relevant statutory provision as an amount the current wording of the regulation, ASIC in dollars, the information may be set out as does not have the discretion to offer relief. a description of the amount as a percentage The committee believes that there is a real of a specified matter, including, if appropri- need for the legislation to have some flexibil- ate, worked dollar examples. If the Austra- ity to take account of such situations. lian Securities and Investments Commission There was the option for the committee to determines that, for a compelling reason, it is recommend that the regulation be reformu- not possible to state information as an lated to provide ASIC with the necessary amount in dollars or to describe the amount latitude to allow for the economic impact of as a percentage, the information may be set the dollar disclosure requirement on the pro- out as a description of the method of calcu- vider, the practicality of dollar disclosure or lating the remuneration, charge, benefit, in- whether dollar disclosure is in the interest of terest or cost et cetera including, if appropri- consumers. Having said that, however, the ate, worked dollar examples. With periodic committee remains firm in its conviction that statements the requirement is similar. the regulations must not allow any opportu- A number of witnesses raised concerns nities for providers to avoid their dollar dis- about the strict application of the terms closure obligations where it is possible for ‘compelling reasons’ and ‘not possible to them to meet that obligation and it is in the state an amount in dollar terms’. According interests of consumers for them to do so. to the evidence there are instances where At the moment, the committee is disin- dollar disclosure, while possible, simply may clined to tinker with the current wording of not be economically viable, practicable, sen- the regulations and favours the promulgation sible or in consumers’ interest. The commit- of additional regulations to provide the nec- tee believes that each case needs to be exam- essary flexibility to accommodate the par- ined thoroughly before any determination ticular cases where ASIC determines that can be reached. It would appear that in such dollar disclosure is not appropriate, impracti- cases the solution would be to make a new cal or at the time imposes an unreasonable regulation that would provide the necessary burden on the provider. This means the mak- exemption, but only for the specific product. ing of regulations that will allow ASIC to In this way relief can be granted to genuine grant relief—either class relief or individual cases without in any way weakening the dol-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21853 product relief—in limited circumstances and before a common fee model is finally in some instances for a limited period. In this adopted. way ASIC, which is best placed to assess the They include firstly that the fees and validity of a claim for relief, in consultation charges represent the total cost to the con- with Treasury would recommend that a par- sumer or investor—in other words that all ticular class of product or individual product charges, costs or fees are disclosed. Sec- be exempt from the dollar disclosure re- ondly, they recommend that the fees and quirement. The regulation would then be charges be presented in one statement in a promulgated and, as a disallowable instru- clearly defined and prominent location in the ment, be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. disclosure document. Thirdly, they recom- The committee also appreciates that the mend that the amounts be disclosed in dollar time frame for the implementation of the terms. Fourthly, they recommend that the proposed regulations is short and may cause fees and charges be presented in a table for- difficulties for some providers. It recom- mat. Fifthly, they recommend that the fees mended that a regulation be made that would and charges be set out in such a way that allow a transition period to extend to 1 Janu- consumers can compare them. Some spoke ary 2005. This recommendation would allow of the need to have separate demarcated additional latitude for an extension of time categories, such as up-front fees and ongoing for providers genuinely struggling to have fees. Sixthly, they recommend that there be a systems in place to meet their dollar disclo- single bottom line figure. Seventhly, they sure obligations. The committee, however, is recommend that common or standardised strongly of the view that those capable of terminology be used. Eighthly, they recom- meeting their dollar disclosure obligations mend that a similar format be used for the should do so from 1 July 2004. different types of disclosure documents to Much of the evidence presented to the enable consumers to compare like with like. committee went beyond the regulations un- For example, the format in the periodic der consideration and dealt with the broader statement should resemble that used in the issue of effective disclosure, with the focus product disclosure statement. Finally, they on a fee disclosure model. Although outside recommend that the fee model be consumer its terms of reference, the committee briefly tested and approved. discussed this matter, which it regards as the In conclusion, on 10 March 2004, the Par- next important step in ensuring that consum- liamentary Secretary to the Treasurer, an- ers are fully informed about the costs and nounced that the government wished to ex- charges of financial services and products. pedite and bring to an effective conclusion The committee recognises the challenge in- current industry discussions on the matter of volved in devising a disclosure regime that a simple fee disclosure for investment based will equip the customer with the information financial products, such as superannuation needed to make an informed choice and sees funds. He explained that he had written to the formulation of a fee disclosure model as the chief executive officers of ASFA and the next goal. The evidence presented to the ISFA to seek a resolution to the long standing committee highlights the pressing need to impasse on the matter of fee disclosure. The develop and adopt a fee disclosure model committee welcomes the government’s deci- that will ensure that disclosure is effective sive action but notes that, before the adop- and meaningful for consumers, and has iden- tion of an agreed fee disclosure model, certified key elements that should be considered tain requirements should be met.

CHAMBER 21854 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

As noted in its discussion about models, SUPERANNUATION: TEMPORARY the committee identified a number of key RESIDENTS features that fee disclosure should include. Return to Order We believe that the agreed format for fee Senator TROETH (Victoria— disclosure should not depart from those sug- Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for gestions. We note particularly the require- Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.01 ment for the model to be consumer tested p.m.)—I seek leave to make a short state- and approved. I commend the report to the ment on behalf of the Minister for Revenue Senate and I particularly thank Kathleen and Assistant Treasurer, Senator Coonan, in Dermody and the staff of the committee se- relation to the order to table revenue col- cretariat for their work on this report. lected during the 2002-03 financial year in Question agreed to. respect of the measure ‘allowing departing DOCUMENTS temporary residents access to their superan- Auditor-General’s Reports nuation’. Report No. 35 of 2003-04 Leave granted. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Senator TROETH—Let me begin by (Senator Watson)—In accordance with the briefly outlining the measure to which this provisions of the Auditor-General Act 1997, order refers. The government put this meas- I present the following report of the Auditor- ure in place in recognition that temporary General: Report No. 35 of 2003-04— residents leaving the country were unlikely Business Support Process Audit— to retire in Australia and that it would be ap- Compensation Payments and Debt Relief in propriate to allow them to access superannu- Special Circumstances. ation before preservation age. Since 1 July PARLIAMENTARY ZONE 2002 temporary residents have been allowed to access their superannuation upon perma- Proposal for Works nent departure from Australia subject to The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT withholding of tax concessions provided to (Senator Watson)—In accordance with the the benefits. Under this measure, benefits provisions of the Parliament Act 1974, I pre- paid from a taxed source are taxed at 30 per sent a proposal by the Department of Parlia- cent and benefits paid from an untaxed mentary Services, together with supporting source are taxed at 40 per cent. Any personal documentation, to extend the approval for undeducted contributions are returned to the temporary vehicle barriers. temporary resident untaxed. The measure Senator TROETH (Victoria— benefits many temporary residents, including Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for those who have already permanently de- Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.00 parted Australia and those who may depart in p.m.)—by leave—I give notice that, on the the future. The measure rightfully returns next day of sitting, I shall move: superannuation benefits to temporary resi- That, in accordance with section 5 of the Par- dents who might otherwise lose track of their liament Act 1974, the Senate approves the pro- benefits forever. posal by the Department of Parliamentary Ser- As with all measures, there can be an ini- vices to extend the approval for temporary vehi- tial period during which eligible people be- cle barriers around Parliament House. come aware of the measure and are educated on how to comply. To this end, the Australian

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21855

Taxation Office has undertaken an extensive posing to provide the revenue information education campaign to raise awareness of the being sought by this return to order. ability of departing temporary residents to Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.05 access their superannuation. It has contacted p.m.)—by leave—I move: temporary residents who have left the coun- That the Senate take note of the statement. try and temporary residents currently in Aus- tralia, and is now advising new arrivals of Firstly, this is the quickest response to an this program. The ATO advises me that order for the production of documents; we awareness of the scheme is increasing. The only passed the order earlier today. It is ob- number of departing temporary residents vious why the response has been so quick— providing email contact details on departure it is an outright refusal by the government to cards or accessing the web site has increased provide the revenue detail of the moneys that from around 2,000 per month at the begin- were collected from this new measure. The ning of the scheme to 16,000 per month in new measure we are discussing relates to tax January 2004. Over time this is expected to collection from temporary residents who translate into increasing take-up of this leave the country and who may voluntarily measure. transfer overseas their superannuation that accrued whilst they were working in Austra- On the subject of revenue collected, the lia, once they leave the country. As a conse- government has not published the figures quence of that transfer, the tax revenue is being sought by this order because it is but collected—or is proposed to be collected, one component of the overall collections more to the point. from superannuation taxation. The government is committed to the disclosure of reve- What is outrageous about the outright re- nue and expenditure. The government pub- fusal of the Assistant Treasurer, Senator lishes the result of its consideration of all Coonan—presumably on instructions by the relevant factors influencing revenue when it Treasurer, Mr Costello—is that the revenue releases its forecast in the budget and Mid- that is claimed will be collected was the ma- Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook. Indeed, jor savings component of the Liberal Party’s it was this government that introduced the last election commitments. It was listed as a requirement on government to publish reve- savings measure to raise some $325 million nue estimates twice per year under the char- over four years. In the first year it was listed, ter of budget honesty. it was claimed that some $70 million would be raised in the financial year 2002-03. However, it is not usual practice to disag- gregate superannuation tax revenue, or in- The government do know what revenue is deed any other head of revenue, into its being collected from this measure. That is many constituent parts. Generally speaking, clear. But they are refusing to provide the it would be impractical to track revenue for precise figure that was collected in the finan- every measure the government introduces cial year 2002-03. This is a cover-up. The and for each subcomponent of each revenue government are refusing to disclose the head because of the considerable number of revenue that they actually collected from this subcomponents. This is also the case for su- measure in 2002-03. They have forecast in perannuation tax revenue. Further, there is no the budget papers the collection of some $70 strong public interest to depart from estab- million in 2002-03 and some $325 million lished practice. Accordingly, in keeping with over the four years of the forward estimates. established practice, the minister is not pro- Why is it a cover-up? It is a cover-up be-

CHAMBER 21856 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 cause, on my information, the government That is why the government refuses to re- cannot collect the money. They cannot col- lease the figures for the year 2002-03. lect anywhere near that $70 million in the It is very clear that the government, in first year of operation. I am reliably in- covering this up, does not want to admit to a formed by my sources in the superannuation serious mistake that is probably going to cost industry that the government would have the budget revenue between $200 million been lucky to collect $10 million from this and $250 million over the four years. If I am measure in the 2002-03 financial year. We do wrong, I challenge the Treasurer to release not know the precise figure because the gov- the figure of the moneys actually collected in ernment will not release the figure actually 2002-03. If I am wrong, release the figure. collected. But the Treasurer, through the Assistant Why is the figure much lower than the one Treasurer, is refusing to release the figure included in the budget estimates for 2002- because the Treasurer does not want to admit 03? It is simply because the government that he has got it wrong. The Treasurer does cannot collect the revenue. Only the Treas- not want to correct the public record and urer, Mr Costello, would claim that you admit that he cannot collect $325 million in could collect tax from departed residents— revenue from backpackers and the like who and that they would pay voluntarily—when have left the country and who Treasury can- you do not know where they have gone to. not find to collect the tax. I challenge the The Treasurer, Mr Costello, is claiming that government to come clean. I challenge the he can collect $325 million over four years Treasurer and the Assistant Treasurer to cor- when the tax office cannot find a significant rect the public record and to come clean on proportion of the temporary residents who the actual revenue collected in 2002-03. If I have left the country. If you cannot find the am wrong then they should produce the fig- temporary residents—if you do not know ure for the moneys collected. It was sup- where they have gone—you cannot tell them posed to be $70 million. Let us see the fig- to voluntarily transfer their superannuation ure. Let the Assistant Treasurer and the out of the country and then collect the tax Treasurer prove that I am wrong in saying revenue, which the Liberal government has that they are going to fall $200 million-odd claimed it will do. That is the basic flaw in short on a measure that was used to justify this approach. the funding of their election commitments This is Alice in Wonderland stuff—to be- and is now in the budget. lieve that you can collect $325 million in tax Question agreed to. revenue when you cannot find the temporary COMMITTEES residents, the backpackers and the like, who Membership have left the country to collect the tax. That is the reason why the government will not The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT release the figure of what was actually col- (Senator Watson)—The President has re- lected in 2002-03. That is the reason why ceived a letter from a party leader seeking a they are covering this up. They cannot col- variation to the membership of a committee. lect the $325 million in tax that they budg- Senator TROETH (Victoria— eted for in the commitments they made at the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for last election and put in the forward estimates. Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.13 There will be a significant shortfall in the p.m.)—by leave—I move: revenue to be collected from this measure.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21857

That Senator Cook be discharged from and behalf of the industry. As the industry services Senator Hutchins be appointed to the Foreign body, Dairy Australia is also responsible for the Affairs, Defence and Trade References Commit- management of the Dairy Structural Adjustment tee. Fund. The Fund is, by law, administered by the Question agreed to. company as a Trust. DAIRY PRODUCE AMENDMENT BILL During the course of the reform process undertaken earlier this year, it became clear that, as the 2003 company is the trustee of the Structural Adjust- First Reading ment Fund Trust, the directors of Dairy Australia, Bill received from the House of Represen- if not fully indemnified, could be personally li- tatives. able under the Corporations Act, for any liabilities arising that could not be satisfied from the Fund. Senator TROETH (Victoria— It is common, in such situations, for trustees to be Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for fully indemnified, to ensure that any liabilities, Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.14 should they arise, are not the personal responsibil- p.m.)—I move: ity of the trustees. That this bill may proceed without formalities The risk of any liabilities arising in relation to the and be now read a first time. Fund is remote, as the Dairy Adjustment Levy Question agreed to. will continue to fund the Dairy Structural Ad- justment Fund until all payments have been met. Bill read a first time. Nevertheless, it is appropriate that the company Second Reading be indemnified against any liabilities arising to ensure that there is no personal risk to the direc- Senator TROETH (Victoria— tors of the company in their role of undertaking Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for this very important service to the dairy industry. Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.14 Therefore, these amendments provide for the p.m.)—I move: industry services body to be fully indemnified, That this bill be now read a second time. out of the assets of the Dairy Structural Adjust- I seek leave to have the second reading ment Fund, for any liabilities incurred by it in speech incorporated in Hansard. keeping and administering the Fund. The indem- nity is to be paid out of the assets of the Fund, Leave granted. and will apply to liabilities arising before, on or The speech read as follows— after commencement of these amendments. DAIRY PRODUCE AMENDMENT BILL 2003 Of course, these amendments do not serve to in- demnify the industry services body against liabili- The Dairy Produce Amendment Bill 2003 seeks ties that arise as the result of activities related to to amend the Dairy Produce Act 1986 to make negligence, fraud, a breach of trust or other ac- provision for a number of activities of the indus- tions not in accordance with the principles of trust try services body, Dairy Australia, in relation to law. Having said this, the existing provisions in its administration of the Dairy Structural Adjust- the Dairy Produce Act, coupled with the strict ment Fund. These provisions, which are minor in provisions governing the company’s management nature, were not included in the Dairy Industry of the Fund in the Statutory Funding Agreement Service Reform Bill, which gave effect to the between the Commonwealth and the company, conversion of the Australian Dairy Corporation will ensure that the Fund continues to be pru- into a private company, limited by guarantee— dently and professionally managed into the fu- Dairy Australia. ture. Dairy Australia has been declared the industry A second matter that arose in the course of the services body for the purposes of receiving the conversion of the Australian Dairy Corporation dairy service levy and undertaking functions on into Dairy Australia, was whether the Act makes

CHAMBER 21858 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 it clear that in its capacity as trustee of the Dairy The amendments will provide for the company to Structural Adjustment Fund, the industry services apply money standing to the credit of the DSAF body has the power to enter into and perform for the purposes outlined above. These financial financial accommodation arrangements other than arrangements were available to the Australian borrowings and to enter into and perform con- Dairy Corporation as a statutory corporation and tracts and other arrangements for managing risks it is considered appropriate to make clear in the associated with the administration the Fund. Act, that these arrangements are also available to To ensure the company can continue to deal ap- Dairy Australia in its role of managing and ad- propriately with financial institutions, these ministering the Dairy Structural Adjustment amendments specify the financial activities the Fund. company can undertake in its role of keeping and A consequential amendment will also be made in administering the Dairy Structural Adjustment relation to the termination of the levy to provide Fund. that the levy termination day will not be declared Specifically, the amendments allow the company until the obligations in relation to contracts en- to borrow or raise money by dealing in securities. tered as outlined above have in all reasonable For the purposes of the Act “dealing in securities” likelihood, been paid out of the DSAF. This pro- is to mean: vision currently exists in relation to all other purposes for which the money standing to the credit (a) creating, executing, entering into, of the Fund can be used. drawing, making, accepting, endorsing, issuing, discounting, selling, purchasing Finally, the Bill also amends the definition of an or re-selling securities; Australian Deposit Taking Institution to include the Reserve Bank—as is appropriate. (b) creating, selling, purchasing or re- selling rights or options in respect of The Dairy Produce Amendment Bill, while minor securities; and in nature, will assist Dairy Australia in its ongoing management of the Dairy Structural Adjust- (c) entering into agreements or other ment Fund, and will ensure that prudent and prac- arrangements relating to securities. tical financial management of the significant “Securities” includes stocks, debentures, deben- sums involved continues, for the benefit of the ture stocks, notes, bonds, promissory notes, bills dairy industry and the Australian community. of exchange and similar instruments or docu- Debate (on motion by Senator Crossin) ments. adjourned. For consistency, it is also considered prudent to include a clause that expands on the interpretation Ordered that the resumption of the debate of raising money other than by borrowing, to pick be made an order of the day for a later hour. up examples of raising finance by way of ac- HIGHER EDUCATION LEGISLATION knowledgements of debt in relation to deposits AMENDMENT BILL 2004 and other arrangements. First Reading Additionally, it is intended to insert a clause in relation to hedging through currency and other Bill received from the House of Represen- types of contracts in relation to borrowing or rais- tatives. ing money other than by borrowing. Again, this is Senator TROETH (Victoria— to make clear that the company has the ability to Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for undertake such activities in relation to its man- Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.15 agement of the DSAF. This clause will apply to currency, interest rate and futures contracts as p.m.)—I move: well as contracts relating to interest rate swaps, That this bill may proceed without formalities commodity swaps and options. and be now read a first time. Question agreed to.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21859

Bill read a first time. and Innovation reforms in the first three years of Second Reading their implementation. This increase will also provide $1.5 million this Senator TROETH (Victoria— year to enrich Indigenous higher education in the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Northern Territory through Batchelor Institute of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.16 Indigenous Tertiary Education and Charles Dar- p.m.)—I move: win University. A total of $3 million will be pro- That this bill be now read a second time. vided for this initiative. I seek leave to have the second reading The bill will also amend the Higher Education speech incorporated in Hansard. Support Act 2003 to reflect the correct funding to be provided under the Act in relation to the Leave granted. Commonwealth Grant Scheme and Other Grants The speech read as follows— for the years 2005-07. It will also make some HIGHER EDUCATION LEGISLATION minor technical amendments to HESA relating to AMENDMENT BILL 2004 the setting of student contributions and tuition fees, the remission of HECS-HELP debts for Late last year I introduced into Parliament a work experience in industry units, the definition package of comprehensive reforms to Australia’s of Equivalent Full Time Student Load, and the higher education system. The reforms now con- notification of tax file numbers by students. tained in the Higher Education Support Act 2003 and the Higher Education Support (Transitional The bill will also allow higher education provid- Provisions and Consequential Amendments) Act ers to set in advance the student contribution 2003, have clearly assured a vibrant future for amounts and tuition fees which will be paid over Australia’s universities and will enable the con- the life of a course by the students who com- tinued provision of world class education to thou- mence in that course in that particular year. sands of Australians. The bill will provide the Minister with a discre- The measures contained in these two vital pieces tion to approve funding increases under the of legislation will deliver to universities more Commonwealth Grants Scheme in the first year than 34,000 Commonwealth supported places and of implementation, where a higher education pro- $2.6 billion over the next five years. The Com- vider has met some, but not all, of the require- monwealth will provide close to $11 billion in ments of the National Governance Protocols by new money over ten years. Just as importantly, 2004 that they have taken all reasonable steps this legislation will deliver much needed reform within their power to meet the requirements of the to the sector, enabling the growth and diversifica- Protocols and had met the workplace relations tion of our already excellent institutions. requirements. This will enable universities to benefit from additional money in 2005 where The bill now before us will adjust the operation of delays in amendments to existing individual State these acts to make the transition between the cur- laws may prevent them from complying in full. rent and new funding arrangements as smooth and effective as possible. Finally, the bill will simplify the transitional funding arrangements in the Higher Education Sup- The Higher Education Legislation Amendment port (Transitional Provisions and Consequential Bill 2004 will amend the maximum funding limit Amendments) Act 2003 for the University of for grants made under s23C of the Higher Educa- Notre Dame Australia. My Department has ad- tion Funding Act 1988 to allow for price increases vised me that the current drafting of the transi- for current programmes and for the creation of tional provision may create some unforeseen new initiatives. It will ensure that the Regional negative consequences for UNDA. Under this Protection Fund has a sufficient allocation for amendment, the transitional arrangements will be 2004, in line with this Government’s commitment more effectively managed through the National that no regional university would be detrimentally Priorities component of the Commonwealth Grant affected in its research funding by the Knowledge Scheme Guidelines. This amendment will stream-

CHAMBER 21860 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 line administrative measures already in the Act to and charges in dollar terms if it is ‘reasona- ensure that UNDA’s current HECS-liable students bly practicable’ for them to do so. That test can continue in their courses until 2008. simply is not good enough. The choice of a Full details of the measures in the bill are con- superannuation fund is one of the most im- tained in the explanatory memorandum circulated portant investment decisions that any Austra- to honourable senators. lian will make. Given the importance of this By making these adjustments to the Higher Edu- decision, we must do everything we can to cation Funding Act 1988 and by further refining ensure that every Australian knows what the the operation of the Higher Education Support fees and charges are in dollar terms when Act 2003, this bill improves the transition be- choosing a super fund. The same applies for tween the current and new funding frameworks. It will give Australia’s higher education providers managed funds. We must not allow the old the certainty they need to plan for the implemen- ‘reasonably practicable’ test to take effect. If tation of the new framework in the coming year. the government and other parties fail to agree In doing so it further enhances the package of on the form of the new draft regulations, the reforms which will be the new foundation for rejected reasonably practicable test will be- Australia’s higher education sector. come the law. I commend the bill to the Senate. For those who are new to the debate, I will Debate (on motion by Senator Crossin) provide a brief history. In December 2003 adjourned. Labor and the Democrats combined to insert ASSENT a requirement into the FSRA for fees and charges to be disclosed in dollar terms. Dur- A message from His Excellency the Gov- ing that debate, Labor and the Democrats ernor-General was reported informing the indicated their serious concerns with the Senate that he had assented to the following government’s reasonably practicable test— laws: the same test that is included in today’s regu- Health Legislation Amendment (Medicare) lations. This test, enshrined in the regulations Act 2004 (Act No. 16, 2004). we are debating today, gives every product (Quorum formed) issuer in the country an escape route to avoid CORPORATIONS AMENDMENT disclosing fees and charges in dollar terms. REGULATIONS 2003 (No. 8) That escape route is called the reasonably Motion for Disallowance practicable test. The government’s reasonably practicable test sets the threshold for dis- Senator CONROY (Victoria) (5.20 closure too low and will create a loophole for p.m.)—I move: product issuers and other participants in the That Schedule 3, items [1] to [4], [6], [8] and financial services industry to avoid disclos- [9] of the Corporations Amendment Regulations ing in dollar terms. 2003 (No. 8), as contained in Statutory Rules 2003 No. 282 and made under the Corporations In response, the government committed to Act 2001, be disallowed. replace the existing regulations, which re- Labor is seeking to disallow these regula- quire dollar disclosure where reasonably tions because they are not in the best inter- practicable, with new regulations. The gov- ests of consumers. These regulations are ernment has now drafted the new regulations flawed. They are flawed because they say to replace these regulations and other regula- that product issuers, many of whom are tions currently in force. The new draft regu- listed companies, only have to disclose fees lations include Labor’s and the Democrats’ new test—that dollar disclosure is required

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21861 unless ASIC determines that, for compelling practicable test. I do not believe that, once reasons, it is not possible. This new test this test becomes part of the law and industry raises the bar for disclosure. It is no longer gears up for it, the government will have the good enough for a product issuer to say that inclination to change the law at a later stage. it is not reasonably practicable for them to Think about it: this is a bizarre argument. disclose in dollar terms. The new test is sig- The one issue more than any other that busi- nificantly more stringent than the old rea- ness consistently brings to us in the parlia- sonably practicable test. Professor Ramsay, ment is, ‘Please don’t chop and change. one of the few individuals who has consid- Don’t send us off on one path and then ered all of these issues over a long period change your mind after we have spent hun- and is quoted extensively by the industry— dreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars by the product floggers—was so moved by conforming our systems to a piece of legisla- the misrepresentation of his views on this tion that you will be ultimately changing.’ matter that he has written to the JPC and said Yet, for the first time in my memory—and that he supports the new draft regulations on perhaps, Senator Murray, you may have a the basis that they accord with his recom- more enhanced memory—we have business mendations in his report to ASIC. lobbying to put in place a test that they Let us be clear. The product manufactur- know, or claim, will be replaced in three or ers, issuers, floggers—call them what you four months time. It just does not ring true. will—will not, unless they are made to, pro- Why would they want this test in place and vide consumers with all of the information then, in three or four months time—after that they need. What is all of the informa- they have spent all that time and money con- tion? I have a very simple definition of it. I forming their systems to the old test—want call it the total cost to the customer. Why to see a new test come in? Why don’t they won’t they provide it? Why is this like a simply wait until we get the new test, which wooden stake to a vampire? Why is it that is not that far away? If we let these regula- IFSA are so resistant to providing their tions pass into law, the reasonably practica- customers with the information they need to ble test becomes the law from July 2004. The know? pressure to put Labor’s and the Democrats’ Today we are not arguing about the merits new higher, improved test into the law will of the two tests. The government has pro- vanish. duced draft regulations which replace the old At the moment there are negotiations— reasonably practicable test with our new test. and I have to say to you that I would love to The issue is whether the new regulations will be selling tickets to the meeting between ever become the law. In spite of producing IFSA and ASFA, because they have been these new draft regulations, the government going at this for two years. That may sound has not withdrawn the old regulations with extraordinary. For two years these two or- the old reasonably practicable test. If the ganisations have been at loggerheads over government is committed to introducing the what should be disclosed to customers. You new test, the existing regulations with the old may think, ‘This is quite extraordinary. How test should not be allowed to pass into law on earth can they be arguing about telling a with effect from July. If these regulations did customer what the total cost they are being pass, industry would begin to make the nec- charged for a product is?’ But that is what it essary changes to systems and documents is about. that allow compliance with the reasonably

CHAMBER 21862 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

At the moment I understand—and I am tion because of the opacity of fee disclosure that hoping that my information is correct; it may is simply not available to most other areas of the not be—that we are close to an agreement. If Australian or international economy. we are close to an agreement, why on earth Thirdly, and finally, Mr Lannon from 20/20 do we want to mandate this when we are not Funds said: long from having the agreed test that the in- I think there is a strong incentive for fund dustry is prepared to put up? If the govern- companies not to disclose all these fees. I call it ment were serious about replacing the old the fee-fest. They collect them and make great reasonably practicable test with our new profits and that is fine, and they are invisible. The higher test, they would withdraw these banks have had their heyday of being beat up regulations. In my view, once the reasonably over fees and so they have moved into the next practicable test becomes enshrined in the lucrative category—fund management—by ac- quiring fund management companies, and those law, it is highly unlikely that the more strin- fees are invisible. gent test produced by Labor and the Democ- rats will ever become part of the law. Let us make it clear: what we have is an industry that has concentrated from a vast ar- The vested interests in this industry are ray of companies down to five—and if you unparalleled. At the recent joint parliamen- want to be generous, six—the big four banks tary committee inquiry into the new draft and AMP, and you can toss AXA in as well. regulations, a number of witnesses referred Something like 80 per cent of financial plans to the vested interests in the financial ser- written nowadays are controlled by those vices industry. I will quote three of them who five or six companies. This is an extraordi- appeared. Firstly, Mr Kevin Bailey from The nary concentration. It is putting enormous Money Managers—for anyone who is in Vic- power in the hands of the banks and a few toria, he has a regular Saturday morning pro- other financial services companies. They are gram and is considered one of the doyens of a strong-willed and determined lobby group the industry—said: who will not, unless they are made to, come I am well aware that there are many people clean to their customers. They will not. within the financial services industry that are fighting very hard for standards but are having a The Senate must take a stand. The gov- tough time of it because of the weight of vested ernment are asking the Senate to put the in- interest in the status quo. Many people call them- terests of product issuers and groups with selves fee based advisors, but the majority of their vested interests like IFSA above the interests revenue comes from trailing commissions, which of consumers. If you vote against this disal- are not disclosed and are very much hidden. Most lowance, you will be putting the interests of people would not know what they have paid in product floggers—the banks—above the in- trailing commissions to their adviser over the last terests of the consumers. The government are 12 months, but they know what their telephone asking the Senate to pass regulations with a bill is and they know what their electricity bill is, test that they have accepted is flawed. The because they are delivered in dollars-and-cents terms. government have said, ‘We’re going to replace it.’ The government are asking the This is somebody who has an intimate Senate to pass regulations which they say knowledge of the industry. Secondly, Ms they will replace. Why? I for one cannot look Wolthuizen from the Australian Consumers consumers in the face and say that I allowed Association advised the committee: regulations which included a flawed method Sectors of the financial services industry are benefiting at the moment from a level of protec-

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21863 of disclosing fees and charges to pass funds did not have a good understanding of through the Senate. the fees and charges associated with their The new draft regulations—not those that investment. In relation to financial literacy, we are debating today—provide the first step Mr Lannon from 20/20 Funds advised the to empowering consumers by requiring dol- committee: lar disclosure unless ASIC determines that it What happens typically out here ... is that the is not possible for a compelling reason. In average person is bamboozled. When you walk in Labor’s view, the second step is for the dis- to see a financial adviser to get advice in an area closure of a single bottom line figure in dol- where you have little or no knowledge—there are lar terms. Again, it is not a radical concept. technical terms— We are asking that a consumer who receives we have all seen them— all the blurb from these product floggers— you are trying to find someone you trust. the banks and financial institutions—is able In relation to other recent surveys the Aus- to pick up a piece of paper and look in one tralian Consumers Association stated: place for the cost: one single figure. It does We know in Australia, from the ASFA- not seem like it is that hard. The richest, commissioned Ageing Agendas research and from smartest, most powerful industry in the the ANZ financial literacy survey, that consumers world bar none—the banking and financial struggle to understand fees and commissions on services industry—makes all this money off many investment and superannuation products. its customers. Why? Because the customers When ACA and ASIC conducted the financial do not even know what they are paying half planning survey, even our panel of experts found the time. That is what the surveys show. I it difficult in many cases to try and unravel the challenge any senator to pick up a PDS and fee and cost structures of the plans and investments they were presented with as part of that the information that is handed to them and assessment process. work out what they are paying for the product. Experts who were hired to have a look at fees in the end threw their hands up and said, Labor believes that consumers have a ‘We just can’t work out what it is costing.’ right to know what fees they are paying in Even the industry has acknowledged the dollar terms and they are entitled to know a problem. bottom line figure. It is a simple concept. A single fee will allow consumers to compare Although Senator Murray has heard this different super fund products. To make a before, I go back to the words of the Chair- fully informed investment decision, consum- man of IFSA, Mr Doug McTaggart, who ers need a single fee for fees and charges. said: Survey after survey shows that most con- I am concerned that our industry will be seen to sumers do not understand fees and charges have created a supply driven monster that is out on super products and managed funds. The of control. A monster that has too many product features, too many different types of fees and too ANZ—that is a bank—conducted a financial little effective disclosure. I marvel at how the literacy survey in 2003 and found that 56 per average politician, regulator or consumer can get cent of people with superannuation did not their head around our various products and ser- have a good understanding of the fees and vices. Is it any wonder that we are under constant charges associated with this investment: their criticism? The industry needs to focus on simpli- most important investment, their future re- fying its offerings ... if it is not possible to quan- tirement income. The survey also found that tify a fee in a product disclosure statement or 40 per cent of people investing in managed

CHAMBER 21864 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Financial Services Guide, we should consider many of them are modelling themselves on banning that fee. right now. They have been using a fee that The Chairman of IFSA—the chairman of the the parliament has rejected. (Time expired) product floggers—had a moment of clarity Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) when he said that he marvels at how the av- (5.40 p.m.)—What we have here is a clear erage person can understand the fee struc- contest between concepts which are inconsis- tures, that it is no wonder that there is content. The Corporations Act in its various stant criticism and that the industry has cre- manifestations has been developed through ated a ‘supply driven monster’. That is what the Senate processes and passed. Its provi- we have, and ultimately it is up to parliament sions are quite clear. The draft regulations to try to save consumers from this supply which the Parliamentary Joint Committee on driven monster. Labor want to empower con- Corporations and Financial Services reported sumers to control the supply driven monster on in part today are consistent with the act. and we can do that by giving consumers a The regulations that are in force and were single bottom line fee. devised to be consistent with the bill, not the I welcome the decision of the Parliamen- act, are inconsistent with the act. The provi- tary Secretary to the Treasurer, Ross Cam- sions that the regulations refer to come into eron, following our inquiry to give IFSA and effect on 1 July. So the question that the Sen- ASFA one month to come up with a model ate faces is that, were it to support the disal- for a single bottom line figure. But do not lowance, would there be a regulatory hole think that is the end of it. Ross Cameron did where the certainty and decisiveness that is a good thing. He finally got sick of people required in regulations would be absent? dragging their feet. But it looks like he has Well, they are not absent. There are details been nobbled by his own party. Mr Cam- and specifics before us. eron’s office were reported as saying that the An important point to recognise as well is single fee model will be implemented by 1 that this disallowance motion has been July whether or not industry devises its own amended by the mover. In its original form model. In contrast, Senator Coonan has said, the disallowance motion would have affected ‘I think all he really meant was, you know, all the regulations, and frankly we would hurry up.’ have found it very difficult to support it on IFSA have also publicly joined the debate that basis. Altogether there were 31 items in about timing. It is quite clear that Senator the regulations. This disallowance motion Coonan is trying to nobble Parliamentary only affects seven of them, so a substantial Secretary Cameron. She is throwing her proportion of the regulations—namely, 24— weight around and trying to let him know would proceed. That is an important point: who is the minister. These timing squabbles we are focused on the area of inconsistency have a direct impact on consumers. With and we are not focused on getting rid of the each day that goes by where consumers are lot just because there is a problem with some not given a single fee measure showing their of them. We are less alarmed than we were fees and charges they are unable to make and therefore we are able now to deal with fully informed investment decisions. Indus- the specifics of this disallowance motion. try have had since at least 2002 when Labor, The second point to observe is that the the Democrats and the minor parties com- Parliamentary Joint Committee on Corpora- bined to defeat the shonky figure that was tions and Financial Services, on which Sena- used previously—and that is the one that

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21865 tor Conroy and I sit and which comprises commencement period, stretches out some both members and senators, has unanimously time before us. agreed with recommendation 4—that is, the It is important to note remarks I have committee recommends that the wording of made again and again on this legislation. the proposed regulations on dollar disclosure This is gutsy legislation on behalf of the remain as currently drafted. That is a particu- government, and Labor’s support for the leg- larly important recommendation. It means islation has been strong and consistent. There that the specialist committee of the whole is, without doubt, cross-party support for the parliament has confirmed that not only do concepts and intentions of this legislation, the draft regulations comply with the act but which has been confirmed again and again in also the decision of the Senate in determin- inquiries by the specialist committee of the ing how the act should be is valid and they parliament with respect to Corporations Law. are supportive of it. As Senator Conroy has outlined, there are In addressing these regulations, where do two fundamental issues at stake. I shall use we stand? We commence with a prejudice, the terminology used in the report tabled with a bias. I will repeat something I said on today. Those two issues are dollar fee disclo- 4 December 2003: sure and meaningful disclosure. I will deal The Democrats strongly agree with the dollar with dollar fee disclosure first. Among other and then percentage description hierarchy of fee important measures, the regulations at issue disclosure that is enshrined in the regulations. We in this debate require dollar fee disclosure. share the concern that the ‘reasonably practicable’ Consumers are far better informed if they test in the regulations would prove to be too know what fees and charges apply in dollar weak. We support the Labor Party in seeking to legislate to specify dollar disclosure unless ASIC terms than percentages. Survey after survey considers that this is not possible. This would and all the research indicate that consumers send the clearest message to financial service are most comfortable with dollar language, providers that dollar fee disclosure should be- and that it is the one most understood by come the norm. them. That is particularly important since These regulations, as a whole, are important investment products are now bought increas- implementation measures, and the disclosure ingly by unsophisticated consumers. The fees and charges are only part of the regula- mass of Australians who have entered into tions that we are dealing with. The Financial financial service transactions far exceeds Services Reform Act 2001 was the result of a those of a decade ago and, therefore, the lan- comprehensive Wallis reform project which guage by which they are addressed needs to sought to facilitate a more efficient, flexible be as understandable as possible to ensure and regulated regime for financial services that people are not conned or taken advan- and products. It drastically improves disclo- tage of. sure and consumer accountability in the fi- The regulations also give industry an ex- nancial services industry. It is a part, namely emption from dollar fee disclosure if it is not chapter 7, of the Corporations Act 2001. The reasonably practicable to disclose a dollar transition period ended on 11 March 2004, fee. I do not propose to repeat the arguments and the act is now in force. Regulations im- that were outlined in December 2003 or that plement the act’s provisions, and for some of have been outlined again by Senator Conroy those the implementation period, or the today. I will merely say that in December 2003 the Labor Party and the Democrats ar-

CHAMBER 21866 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 gued that the ‘reasonably practicable’ test the government with the support of the De- was effectively a loophole encouraging mocrats, but preferably by the government avoidance of disclosure. It is important, for with the support of both parties—so the two the record, to recognise that the government key players had better get their acts together. accepted the validity of those arguments and Of course they will have ASIC to tick off accepted the amendments that arose from their agreed model, and once that happens that. Consequently, the government accepted we can make progress. I want to be sure that that the act should be strengthened to impose you understand this as a compliment: I think a test that dollar disclosure is required unless that Mr Cameron’s ultimatum is an effective ASIC determines, for a compelling reason, device to try and produce an outcome, and that it is not possible. they can have it one of two ways. They will The draft regulations which were the sub- determine the outcome as agreed with ASIC ject of today’s tabled report have been and to be ticked off by the parliament, or we drafted to reflect the law change that was will impose it. That approach has our sup- made in December 2003. The Joint Parlia- port. mentary Committee on Corporations and The opposition has said that because the Financial Services has inquired into those government has not yet withdrawn the exist- draft regulations and supports them. The ing regulations which contain the old test 2003 regulations that are the subject of disal- there is a danger that, if you leave the old lowance now are already in force until disal- regulations in, their substitution by the new lowed, and they include the old ‘reasonably draft regulations could be delayed because of practicable’ test. They will be amended or tremendous industry pressure—I would think replaced by the draft regulations, but it must the parliamentary secretary is going spare be recognised that they are inconsistent with with it—to not introduce the regulations as the act. outlined. In doing that, he will also be as- The second issue is what the report de- sailed by backsliders within Treasury who do scribes as meaningful disclosure. My reading not like the shift that the parliament has de- of it is that the government agrees with both termined from ‘reasonably practicable’ to the Labor Party and the Democrats that a ‘compelling reasons’. simple, single-fee disclosure model should We are the parliament. We represent the be adopted as an industry standard, but the people. We have made the judgment and, government recognises—as do the other par- frankly, we have to get on with it. By the ties that are informed on this basis—that way, I am not suggesting all Treasury offi- there are complexities and difficulties that cers are backsliders; but, given what I know have to be addressed. I really want to com- of human nature, I would be very surprised if pliment the new Parliamentary Secretary to they do not try and defend an attitude previ- the Treasurer, Mr Ross Cameron, because he ously arrived at. I understand the very clear understands, as we all do, that deadlines pro- difficulty they have—which was exposed in duce action. He has set an ultimatum to the the committee inquiry—of a tremendous two key industry players that if they get their difficulty in reconciling ‘compelling reasons’ act together they will have the chance to de- with the ‘not possible’ test. It makes it very termine what model should be the standard. hard; but it was made deliberately hard. We Otherwise it will taken away from them and do not want many people to be able to avoid it will be imposed. It will be imposed by the the dollar disclosure approach. I have over government with the support of Labor or by these eight years come to have a tremendous

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21867 respect for the brain power in Treasury. I am that. We think there is adequate time prior to absolutely certain they will find a way to 1 July 2004 to replace any disallowed regula- ensure that the parliamentary intention gets tions with the new draft regulations as ad- proper legal effect and is well expressed in justed, hopefully, with respect to the commit- the regulations. tee’s points made to the government. So where are we with the Labor Party dis- To my concluding remarks I put the pro- allowance motion? As I understand it, the viso that unless the government have any Australian Consumers Association share persuasive views as to why I should not pro- their concerns, members within the industry ceed in this manner, it will be my intention at large share their concerns and, of course, on behalf of the Democrats to support the there are others who are strong combatants disallowance; however, I will listen to the who delay or obfuscate in this area. The government’s arguments against the motion. question of trust arrives. In one respect, it is But they should recognise that it is going to not a question of trust with respect to indi- be an uphill battle, because I have come to a viduals, because the integrity of people car- view for the reasons I have enunciated. rying these issues is probably not to be ques- Senator TROETH (Victoria— tioned. The question of whether the govern- Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for ment as a whole will have the fortitude to Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry) (5.57 carry through on both issues in a pre-election p.m.)—Before I turn to my substantive re- environment has to come into our minds. The marks on this disallowance motion, I will other side to that is the question of whether move a government amendment to the mo- disallowance would produce a disruptive tion moved by Senator Conroy. I move: regulatory void at a sensitive and costly Omit “, [6], [8] and [9]”. compliance or implementation time. I would normally be alert to that possibility, but the The government’s reason for doing so is that, point has been made to me that the draft should the regulations be disallowed, in par- regulations have already been constructed ticular items 6, 8 and 9, industry will be un- and have already been tested through the certain as to the disclosure requirements that committee process. will apply to them until new regulations have been made for reporting periods after 1 July In summary, Labor’s argument is that, by 2004. There is generally a long lead time disallowing that part of the regulations as required to implement changes to periodic proposed, pressure will be put upon the gov- statements, which are typically provided on ernment to enact or enforce positions to an annual basis. That is the reason for the which they have already agreed. This is not amendment. However, the government also trying to force the government to do some- believe that there is no basis on which the thing to which they have not agreed. This is disallowance motion should be accepted. We asking them to do something to which they remain fully committed to honouring the have agreed. So the Democrats accept at the commitment given to the Senate by Senator outset the government’s commitment to the Ian Campbell on 5 December 2003 on issues compelling reasons test. We do not believe that we understand form the reasoning for that they wish to backslide from it. We ac- the disallowance—that is, implementation of cept that the government have a commitment regulations to support the disclosure of in- to a simple, single-fee disclosure model, but formation in dollar terms under the Financial we recognise that they are trying to resolve Services Reform Act 2001. the complexities and difficulties attached to

CHAMBER 21868 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

The government is developing regulations in, firstly, the loss of enhancements to the to underlie the legislative amendment it ac- disclosure of superannuation withdrawal cepted during debate on the Financial Ser- benefits and fees associated with other sig- vices Reform Amendment Act 2003 requir- nificant benefits in periodic statements to ing disclosure of information in dollar terms. members, items 6 and 8; secondly, the clos- It released draft regulations for public coming of the loophole affecting the disclosure ment on 7 January 2004. The government of so-called common fund fees—that is, has been awaiting a report from the Parlia- those fees and charges not paid directly by a mentary Joint Committee on Corporations product holder for financial investment and Financial Services following its inquiry products, item 9; and, thirdly, requiring dis- into those draft regulations. That was tabled closure of means to access additional infor- 10 minutes ago and has not been printed. mation sources to the information provided. While the government fully accepts the This motion affects other regulations, and it need to tighten the current exemption, it has constitutes an inappropriate and completely received legal advice that the use of this unnecessary use of parliamentary time and form of words would have the effect of re- disallowance procedures. The government quiring dollar disclosure even when this has given a specific public commitment to would impose massive and disproportionate address outstanding issues relating to the costs on industry. The government therefore regulations, and it is already acting to give considers that the objective of tightening the effect to that commitment. This commitment regulations should be achieved through a is in no doubt. The remaining regulations are different form of words. The disallowance worthwhile and necessary measures that add motion affects regulations that deal with un- to the government’s aim to improve the related but nevertheless important matters. transparency of financial products and to aid Of the nine items within the schedule, five consumer comprehension. The regulations deal with other financial services reform should be welcomed and supported by the matters relating to further disclosures of in- Senate, not disallowed. formation. These include measures to, firstly, Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.02 enhance disclosure of superannuation bene- p.m.)—Parliamentary Secretary, I am inter- fits and any associated fees in periodic ested in legal advice about imposing massive statements to members, items 5 to 8; sec- costs. It must be a very unusual type of legal ondly, close a loophole affecting the disclo- advice that gives you not legal advice but a sure of so-called common fund fees—that is, financial price. Could you table it so it is those fees and charges not paid directly by a available to us? It does seem like unusual product holder for financial investment legal advice. Let me make a couple of points: products, item 9; and, thirdly, require disclo- firstly, we are here today because the gov- sure of means to access additional informa- ernment and the industry wanted the OMC, tion sources to the information provided in the ongoing management charge. Two years periodic accounts for superannuation fund ago, the Senate courageously blocked it be- members, items 5 to 8. cause it did not believe that it was good Removing items 5 and 7 from the disal- enough. Consumer testing on the OMC lowance motion is an ill-considered amend- showed that it was worse than nothing be- ment that effectively does not avoid disal- cause it significantly misled consumers. That lowing important but unrelated regulations. is why, ultimately, a majority—Labor, De- Disallowing the regulations would still result mocrats, minor parties and Independents—

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21869 voted to defeat it. The government argue that regulations that we will be phasing out a few they are trying to help consumers, when con- months down the track. What the parliament sumer testing showed that the OMC seri- and the Senate are seeking to do today is to ously misled consumers. Those opposite give certainty to industry. Why are we here have said that certain regulations are subject today? For those who remember the debate to the disallowance to enhance disclosure. As back in 2002, we are here because during the Senator Murray has so eloquently put it, the debate and afterwards, Senator Ian Camp- problem is that these are fundamentally in- bell, who then had carriage of the bill, made consistent with the piece of legislation that it clear that he would not allow any work to we passed in December. be done to create the new OMC or an en- Senator Murray—Which is now in force. hanced OMC or a single bottom line or whatever. Senator CONROY—Yes, it is now in force. The government know this, yet they He stood there in the parliament, he put choose to proceed. They have already ac- out a press release and he said in the news- cepted that we are going to have a new regu- papers, ‘Right; that’s it. We haven’t got lation. The parliamentary committee has OMC. We’re going to have nothing. I’m not looked at it. We believe that we have made going to countenance any work whatsoever.’ substantial progress—consumers are going Remember, Senator Murray and Senator to be better off because of this. If we let Lees? That was what Senator Ian Campbell these regulations go through, we will be back said and that is why we are here today. That to square one. ‘Square one’ is the rejected is why it is being done in such a rushed why. reasonably practicable test. Consumers need That is why the parliamentary committee disclosure. We do not want a situation where said, ‘We don’t have the paperwork,’ because disclosure is made if the product issuer con- Senator Ian Campbell decided that we were siders it to be reasonably practical, which is not going to progress the issue. It is now two what this regulation enshrines. Fees and years later and it is five minutes to midnight charges must be disclosed. and the government are coming back talking about uncertainty. They have had two years The government has also raised the issue to clear up the uncertainty, to make their of timing. I appreciate the point made by the points and have the arguments. Senator parliamentary secretary about the committee Murray is dead right. Parliamentary Secre- report, because it only came into the cham- tary Cameron has taken a very courageous ber today for everyone to see. The most in- position and he deserves the support of the teresting part of the report is that all of the Senate. I hope he gets the support of all of experts on the committee that Senator his backbench and all the other ministers. Murray described have unanimously recommended to the government that there should Senator Sherry interjecting— be a transition period of six months, to 1 Senator CONROY—Don’t be provoca- January. That will allow us to fix almost all tive. We have a situation where members of of those problems that the government is the government are seeking to undermine arguing will potentially arise. It was a Parliamentary Secretary Cameron. They are unanimous recommendation based on an in- seeking to undermine the intent of the Sen- depth study. We want to give that six months ate’s decision previously. That is why it is to end the uncertainty. We do not want to important that we take the stand today. He create more by putting in place one set of deserves support for a courageous decision.

CHAMBER 21870 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Senator Murray—Don’t choke on it! Dear Senator Murray— Senator CONROY—I am not. Senator which is nice. I love being called ‘Dear’— Troeth has set me off. I want to thank the Continual disallowance of good regulations is Democrats, the minor parties and the Inde- becoming incredibly frustrating for certainty in pendents, who are indicating they will sup- our industry— port this disallowance motion. This is a vic- I am not sure that I have been involved in tory for consumers today. We are very close more than three cases maximum of disallow- to getting what consumers need—a genuine ance in Corporations Law over eight years, piece of information that is meaningful to perhaps more, but I think it is about three— them. We are close to creating genuine com- of good regulations. petition in this sector, so a consumer can The government have announced and put out pick up one document from one investment drafts which are to replace the regulations and see a figure, they can look at another that we are discussing. What does he mean? document from another investment and see a Is he saying that the government should not figure and make a price comparison. Ulti- be doing that or has he forgotten that the mately, in a market economy, you need to government are doing that? He further states: have a price. You need to have price signals so the market can respond, so that consumers It is becoming incredibly frustrating for certainty can respond. If you do not give consumers a in our industry. price, there cannot be a price signal. It cre- They have certainty because they have the ates inefficiency and ultimately that means draft regulations. They have given evidence consumers are paying more than they should. to the Joint Standing Committee on Corpora- tions and Financial Services, so they know I thank those who are supporting this motion. I hope the government will reconsider it exactly what they are getting. They just do even at this late stage and be willing to sup- not know when they are getting it. What we are doing by disallowing this is making sure port this disallowance motion and that we can move on and quickly get a solution to that they will get it pretty damn quick, as this. I think we are very close to a solution in opposed to a lot later. I think that first state- terms of those industry discussions. ment in the email indicates a problem. He goes on: Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Each time the Senate disallows a reg, the cash (6.10 p.m.)—In speaking to the amendment register rings out another five to $10 million in moved by Parliamentary Secretary Troeth to costs. Senator Conroy’s motion, I want to com- I do not know how you work that out, but I mence my brief remarks by quoting from an would have thought they would have been urgent email which has just reached me. The designing their software and all their paper- email is from an expert, a reputable and work to match the draft regulations which respectable person whom I take advice from, have been put out by government and will be which I think is very sound. He is extremely replacing these regulations that we are deal- highly placed in the industry. I will not tell ing with. I would be very surprised if they do you who he is because that would embarrass it with the ones that they are going to re- him. I want to illustrate the problem we have place. That sounds to me like an exaggera- when we are dealing with even the most sen- tion. He further states: ior people who are not across what is happening. The email begins: We have just spent more than $240 million, banks, planners, financial services, companies,

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21871 preparing for the FSRA and we’re losing custom- to do, and I wish I could find a way to ers to less regulated industries, such as real estate, tighten the Labor Party’s disallowance even stockbrokers and self-managed super funds. more. If they were prepared to accept those, I would agree with that. I do not know then, obviously, I would, but I suspect they whether those figures are accurate, but we cannot because the words ‘reasonably practi- are very conscious that the cost of major cable’ are included in each of those. I am not regulatory change in the interests of consum- one of those who enjoys doing disallow- ers—and that is what it is—has a direct busi- ances, unless it is something fundamental to ness cost, which eventually gets passed back my beliefs, like human rights or something to consumers. It does not come out of a net of that nature. But this is about money and payment. We are conscious of that, and what finance and other things, and I think the ar- we are doing is trying to minimise that ex- guments put by the Labor Party with respect penditure. The Financial Services Reform to this particular matter are accurate. It is my Amendment Act says one thing. The regula- job to make a decision, and my decision is to tions that we are dealing with are inconsis- continue to support the Labor Party’s disal- tent with the act. The draft regulations should lowance. be applied as soon as possible. So whilst I Question negatived. am in sympathy with the remark, I think it Original question put: does not refer sufficiently to the reality of the situation. He goes on: That the motion (Senator Conroy’s) be agreed to. I urge you for the sake of certainty to support the government on this issue. The Senate divided. [6.21 p.m.] I would have thought that if we support the (The President—Senator the Hon. Paul government on this issue we will introduce Calvert) more uncertainty; because when will the Ayes………… 36 draft regulations be introduced? I have tried Noes………… 30 in preparation for this debate to get the gov- Majority……… 6 ernment to tell me, and they cannot yet. There might be very good reasons for that, AYES but the fact is that I as a legislator do not Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. know when they will be put in. I think that is Bishop, T.M. Bolkus, N. all I will quote from this particular email so Brown, B.J. Campbell, G. that I do not give too much away. But you Carr, K.J. Cherry, J.C. can see what we are faced with, the sort of Collins, J.M.A. Conroy, S.M. pressure on us—and I am sure it has also Cook, P.F.S. Crossin, P.M. Denman, K.J. Faulkner, J.P. been applied to the government and to the Forshaw, M.G. Greig, B. parliamentary secretary—from a basic posi- Harradine, B. Harris, L. tion of misinformation, even by those who Hogg, J.J. Hutchins, S.P. are at the peak of their circumstance. Kirk, L. Lees, M.H. I have looked at the regulations to which Ludwig, J.W. Mackay, S.M. * McLucas, J.E. Moore, C. the amendment is put. The difficulty for me, Murphy, S.M. Murray, A.J.M. Parliamentary Secretary, is that each of those Nettle, K. Ray, R.F. regulations contains wording which is the Ridgeway, A.D. Sherry, N.J. very subject matter that we are dealing with Stephens, U. Stott Despoja, N. here today. I understand what you are trying Webber, R. Wong, P.

CHAMBER 21872 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

NOES GREATER SUNRISE UNITISATION Abetz, E. Barnett, G. AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION Boswell, R.L.D. Brandis, G.H. BILL 2004 Calvert, P.H. Chapman, H.G.P. CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT Colbeck, R. Eggleston, A. * Ellison, C.M. Ferguson, A.B. (GREATER SUNRISE) BILL 2004 Ferris, J.M. Heffernan, W. Consideration resumed. Humphries, G. Johnston, D. In Committee Kemp, C.R. Knowles, S.C. Lightfoot, P.R. Macdonald, I. GREATER SUNRISE UNITISATION Macdonald, J.A.L. Mason, B.J. AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION BILL McGauran, J.J.J. Patterson, K.C. 2004 Payne, M.A. Santoro, S. Scullion, N.G. Tchen, T. Bill—by leave—taken as a whole. Tierney, J.W. Troeth, J.M. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.25 Vanstone, A.E. Watson, J.O.W. p.m.)—I ask the government where the envi- PAIRS ronmental impact assessment of this project Campbell, I.G. Buckland, G. may be found and, if it is not to be found, Coonan, H.L. Evans, C.V. what the completion date will be and who Minchin, N.H. Lundy, K.A. will be doing it. Hill, R.M. O’Brien, K.W.K. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- *denotes teller tralia) (6.26 p.m.)—I am happy to defer to Question agreed to. Senator Brown if he wants to pursue that line Senator Marshall did not vote, to compen- of questioning. I am assuming the minister sate for the vacancy caused by the resigna- would like some time to get a comprehensive tion of Senator Alston. response to Senator Brown’s question. In the BUDGET meantime, if the minister would like more questions, I am happy to oblige but perhaps Consideration by Legislation Committees we might wait for this response first. What Reports do you think, Bob? Senator EGGLESTON (Western Austra- Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special lia) (6.24 p.m.)—Pursuant to order and at the Minister of State) (6.26 p.m.)—I would have request of the chairs of the respective com- thought it would be quite obvious that you mittees, I present reports from all legislation cannot have an environmental impact state- committees, except the Environment, Com- ment until such time as there is an actual munications, Information Technology and development proposal. When you have the the Arts Legislation Committee and the For- exact details of the development proposal, as eign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation I understand it, that is the time an environ- Committee, in respect of the 2003-04 addi- mental impact statement will be sought. Un- tional estimates, together with the Hansard til you know the detail, the concept of an record of the committees’ proceedings and impact statement may all be very nice but it documents received by certain committees. will not, in fact, deal with the detail that one Ordered that the reports be printed. would undoubtedly expect. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.27 p.m.)—That may have pertained in the 1960s but this is 2004, and what you do in 2004 is

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21873 make sure that the proposal comes with an gas fields of a blow-out, an escape, of oil environmental impact assessment. and/or gas into the marine environment. Senator Abetz—But there is no proposal. There will of course be direct and undeniable impacts of the drilling process, the platforms Senator BROWN—The poor minister involved, the consequent transport through says that there is no proposal but the com- pipelines of the gas to either East Timor or mittee, for example, was forwarded a sub- the Northern Territory and/or the processing mission from Woodside, who, with a couple of the products at sea for export to Australia of other major proponents, is putting forward or other countries around the world. This is a a very clear proposal to develop the oil and gargantuan project—$35 billion is being gas fields that are in question. They have talked about as the overall outcome, with been working on assessments of infrastruc- billions of dollars to be spent developing it ture and the value of that oil field for many and $10 billion in royalties, most of which is years, and we know there is a rival proposal going to be taken by Australia improperly. from Conoco which goes back 20 years. So it is a very big proposal indeed. It has There has been a huge amount of work done potential direct major impacts not just in the in assessing and sizing up this oil and gas region but as far away as the shores of both field. Are we, as a committee, really to be led nations involved. We ought to be dealing to believe that, in the many years of effort with this legislation in light of the knowledge and the millions of dollars expended in doing that would come from both a social and an that assessment, there has been no environ- environmental impact assessment. mental assessment done? Of course we are not. Of course that is not acceptable. Of That is the other matter: the social impact. course there has to be an environmental im- Where is the assessment of the impact of this pact assessment. development on both Australia, and more particularly, Timor Leste? That would have If the minister is saying there is no pro- to include the difference between the $2 bil- posal, I think the committee can go home. lion royalties it is assessed that Timor Leste Why are we dealing with a piece of legisla- will get and the $10 billion it would be get- tion if there is no proposal? Of course there ting if it were not being deprived in this fash- is. That is daft. We have a proposal and out ion to its legal entitlement to total ownership of that proposal comes a unitisation agree- of the oil and gas field. It is not acceptable ment for the development of the oil and gas for legislation like this, which effectively fields called Greater Sunrise and Troubadour. authorises the go-ahead on this project and The question is: where is the environmental without which we are told the project cannot impact assessment? We are dealing with two proceed because it is needed for investor countries here, Timor Leste and Australia. security. What about environmental security? There is a disputed border but there is no doubt about where this development is going The minister opposite might shrug his to take place. shoulders and go, ‘Hah,’ about this but it is a very, very important matter. The govern- There is also no doubt that it can have ma- ment’s environmental track record is second jor impacts, as all oil and gas extraction in to everybody’s. But we can expect, and we marine regions have, on the marine environ- should expect in the Senate, to be presented ment. One does not have to be Einstein to with an environmental and social impact as- know that there is a very significant risk over sessment. I reiterate: where is it? It does not the decades of production of these oil and exist. When is it going to be forthcoming?

CHAMBER 21874 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Who will do it? Who has the power of vet- indication of the practical approach to these ting the result of that environmental and so- situations rather than the dog in the manger cial impact assessment and deciding whether, attitude adopted by the Australian extremes. in light of the environmental and social im- We are concerned about the environmental pact assessment, this project should proceed? issues for any future project of significance. Without the impact on the environment and That is why we passed the legislation that we society being paramount, the assessments are did at a previous time. That legislation will worthless. The project should be contingent be required to be adhered to by anybody that on those assessments being amenable and comes up with a firm proposal. Concepts are acceptable to both East Timor and Austra- all very nice, but what you actually need is a lia—both the social assessment and the envi- firm and detailed proposal. The detailed pro- ronmental assessment. So where are they? In posal has not been forthcoming as yet. light of the fact that they are not here, when When this legislation is—hopefully— are we going to see them, who will do them passed, proposals will come forward. When and at whose expense will they be done? the proposals come forward, they will have Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special to come with an environmental impact Minister of State) (6.34 p.m.)—Senator statement paid for by the proponents, as I Brown has established a reputation for sim- understand it. The environmental impact ply asserting things as facts and hoping that statement will then be assessed by the Joint he is never questioned about the validity of Petroleum Development Authority under the what he is asserting. Of course, that is what Australian law that currently applies. Our he is doing again this evening. He knows full friends from East Timor will have just as well, or he should know full well, the differ- much input as the Australian representatives ence between an actual proposal and a de- to ensure that the environmental impact velopment concept. At this stage we are only statement is appropriate and rigorous and at the development concept stage. This legis- that the environmental concerns held genu- lation is needed to enable a proposal to be inely by all of us in this chamber are ad- forthcoming. It is when that proposal is dressed. Some of us in this world do not see forthcoming that the environmental legisla- a project and straightaway ask, ‘How can we tion and the requirement for an environ- stop it?’ Some of us say: ‘Here is a potential mental impact statement will come and that project. How can we make it work whilst will be under legislation which, if I recall also protecting the environment?’ That is the correctly, Senator Brown voted against—but big difference between Senator Brown’s ap- that is another story. He now wants that leg- proach and the government’s approach. From islation that he voted against to be used and an environmental point of view our legisla- applied to this situation at the Greater Sun- tion will apply as will also, as I understand it, rise. the requirements of annex II of the treaty— I indicate to the Committee of the Whole which was signed by both East Timor and that this government is very proud of the Australia. environmental protection legislation that it If there were a proposal, at the end of the passed, which I understand the Democrats day the social impact of the proposal and the moved considerable amendments to and ne- development of that proposal would be gotiated with the government on. At the end something for the two governments to de- of the day we think a pretty good environ- termine through their democratic purposes. mental outcome was achieved. That is an Suffice to say that I think the social impact

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21875 will be absolutely huge and beneficial to the or secure gas customers until outstanding legal people of East Timor. Make no mistake: if and fiscal issues are resolved, the most immediate this legislation is not passed, we will not be being the entry into force of the International moving from concept to proposal, and the Unitisation Agreement (IUA). Investors and cus- natural resources that are available there will tomers must be convinced that there is fiscal and legal certainty for the project. A large part of that be either not harnessed or delayed from be- certainty is delivered by a ratified IUA. ing harnessed for a long time. As a result, the struggling nation of East Timor—and, when That is effectively what we are doing here, I say struggling, I mean in financial terms— undertaking the ratification of that agree- will be denied considerable dollars. Senator ment. By the way, according to its submission: Brown can say that we are grabbing a share that is too big. We as a government reject Woodside holds a 33.44% interest in and is Op- that categorically. We say an agreement has erator of the Sunrise Unit Area located in the been signed by the two governments et cet- Timor Sea. The other Sunrise participants include ConocoPhillips (30%), Shell (26.56%) and Osaka era. Make no mistake: there will not be an Gas (10%). argument about the share if Senator Brown has his way because the resource will remain The question is: where in this submission is where it is and neither East Timor nor Aus- there any reference to environmental or so- tralia will get the benefit of this joint gas cial impacts? There is none. The submission field. It will have a great and beneficial fi- says that $200 million has been spent on nancial impact on the people of East Timor, concept development, which includes explo- and the funds that flow from harnessing the ration and appraisal, but neither its environ- gas will allow them to upgrade a lot of their mental impact nor its social impact have services and infrastructure and to engage in been appraised. These are ordinary assess- considerable nation building. The social im- ments that any developed country should pact will be of great benefit to our friends in insist and demand are carried out by this East Timor. stage of a proposal. What we are hearing from Woodside is that the proposal will go Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.41 ahead if the ‘outstanding legal and fiscal is- p.m.)—The nonsense about there not being a sues are resolved’. I want to know about the proposal is disposed of if one just looks at outstanding environmental and social issues, Woodside’s prepared submission to the Sen- not to speak of the political ones. The minis- ate inquiry. It talks about hundreds of mil- ter, when he was assessing my submissions lions of dollars having already been invested on this matter, said that I did not agree with in ‘exploration, appraisal and concept devel- the way in which this oil and gas field was opment’. No proposal? What nonsense. shared. No. Let us get this straight: this oil Woodside says: and gas field is in Timorese territory. It is However, Sunrise— 100 per cent on the Timorese side of the that is, the oil and gas field— midpoint between Australia and Timor. So will not progress to the next phase, take a final there is not a question of sharing it. It is investment decision— Timor Leste’s provision. the proposal is up; the next stage is for the Senator O’Brien—Everywhere else in corporations involved to make their final the world there is a 200-mile limit. investment decision— Senator BROWN—Senator Kerry O’Brien interjects that everywhere else it is a

CHAMBER 21876 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

200-mile limit. What he says, in effect, is the state of Tasmania suggesting—in a very that Australia recognises the 200-mile limit colonial way, if I might suggest—that he for itself, but forget about the East Timorese. knows better than the democratically elected The 200-mile limit does not, apparently, mat- government of East Timor in relation to the ter to them. That is the whole thing that is treaty that they signed. How patronising can wrong here. There is this view that Australia you get! This is the sort of nonsense that we has some right to determine boundaries and have to put up with from the Australian to take resources which does not apply to Greens day after day. Thank goodness we East Timor—it is not an equal nation. That is still have a few minutes on broadcast which a colonial attitude and that is just not accept- allows me to expose the sort of nonsense that able. Senator Brown has gone on with. I come back to the social impact, because We have this nonsense of asking, ‘Can there is a lot to be said about the political you name the minister for the environment impact. Woodside says in its proposal that for East Timor?’ What a bizarre and stupid there will be a peak of 3,000 in the work proposition and question. If you were to ask force involved in the development of this me to name the minister for the environment field. That presumably involves the process- of the country that I was born in, Germany, I ing of the gas and oil to the point of sale at could not tell you. I do not even know who least, if not export to wherever it is going to the minister for the environment is in the go. I ask the minister: how many East state of Queensland. I am sorry, I cannot tell Timorese are going to be in that work force? you the state minister’s name. How has that If we are into sharing, what is the expected got anything to do with the quality of the East Timorese component of that work concept, with the quality of the legislation force? I will add a couple of questions to that is before us and with the quality of the that, because they may be worthy of consid- treaty that the democratically elected gov- eration. No, I will ask the minister now: can ernment of East Timor signed—which the he tell me who the minister for the environ- Prime Minister of East Timor personally ment for Timor Leste is and can he tell me signed, as I understand it? how many people are working in the depart- If Senator Brown, being elected by a few ment of the environment in Timor Leste? thousand Tasmanians, thinks that he knows Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special better than the democratically elected Prime Minister of State) (6.46 p.m.)—Starting at Minister of East Timor, so be it, but it is a the beginning of Senator Brown’s comments, very patronising attitude and a very colonial as he spoke he realised that he was getting on attitude. Of course, as honourable senators shakier and shakier ground and then quickly opposite are reminding me, I am elected tried to shift the goalposts as he was talking from the state of Tasmania as well by just a to try to regain some credibility. The simple few thousand Tasmanians. I accept that, but fact is that articles 19, 20 and 21 and annex that is why I would never have the breathtak- II provide for a common legislative and ad- ing arrogance of asserting that, being elected ministrative regime in relation to matters out of the state of Tasmania, I somehow concerning occupational health, safety and know better than the democratically elected environmental protection. Prime Minister of East Timor. That is what the East Timorese have This is the sort of nonsense that we are fed signed up to. Here we have a senator from day after day by the Australian Greens. We

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21877 are getting sick and tired of it on this side of the Australian newspaper last week, the aca- the chamber. I have no hesitation in indicat- demic commentator Ross Fitzgerald sug- ing that this is a treaty that was signed by gested that Australia needed to make educa- both countries for the benefit of both coun- tion a bipartisan issue. I think that is a sensi- tries. We now have legislation to try to drive ble proposition. There can surely be no fun- that forward for the benefit of the people of damental argument over the benefits of edu- East Timor. If Senator Brown and the Austra- cation. Issues of emphasis and certainly a lian Greens have their way, nothing will standard curriculum can be overcome at the happen and the East Timorese and Austra- national level. Fitzgerald wrote: lians will be denied the benefits. Parents increasingly want national standards Progress reported. applied to schools, with a national curriculum, testing systems and tertiary entrance benchmarks. ADJOURNMENT He also wrote that teacher unions needed to The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! note: There being no consideration of government documents, I propose the question: ... parents want results, not political or social activism or Emily’s List-style gender agendas. That the Senate do now adjourn. It is in this context that Australia needs to Education: Boys examine scholastic achievements and devise Senator SANTORO (Queensland) (6.51 ways of improving levels of achievement p.m.)—Educating boys is not an easy task. It among the school cohorts that show signifi- is as difficult and challenging as educating cant failure. Among those who are failing as girls. Educating young people of either gen- a group, regrettably, are boys. Boys do need der is always going to be challenging. It is a access to a social environment, even in the fundamental and vital task of any society to classroom—perhaps especially in the class- bring up its next generation of workers and room—in which there are relevant and ap- leaders. In fact, if we do not find it challeng- propriate male role models. It has been fash- ing from a policy perspective and in terms of ionable to sniff in dismissal at such things, constantly rising outcomes, we are not doing yet those who do so—and I note that the it correctly. There is at present a national feminist Dale Spender was doing some sniff- debate about gender balance in the teaching ing in the opinion pages of the Brisbane profession. Falling proportions of male Courier-Mail today—entirely miss the point. teachers coincide with falling levels of aca- The argument is not about bringing men demic attainment among boys. We need to back into the classroom to ‘redress the gen- note that they coincide; they do not necessar- der imbalance’; it is about providing young ily correlate. But it does seem to me that Australians—of both genders, actually— boys in the classroom need male role models with access to the appropriate role models. It in that environment. has been fashionable for some years to sniff I spoke in the Senate last year on this is- at the concept of role models too, as if this is sue. It is one of the things I set my mind to somehow no longer appropriate. Perhaps the when I came into this place in 2002. It subliminal argument is: why place emphasis seemed to me then and it seems to me now on human relationships when everyone is in that in this country we have a historic oppor- a relationship with their personal computer? tunity to put right one of the things that has Yet we know from our own responses to all been wrong with our system of education. In manner of things that human society has ac-

CHAMBER 21878 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 tually changed very little. And all of us who The Minister for Education, Science and are parents understand very well that loving Training has acted strongly and in a highly firmness, strict moral precepts and strong focused way throughout the process begun social codes unquestionably remain the best by the House of Representatives Standing way to help our children grow up into warm- Committee on Education and Training report hearted, sociable, sensible, community- Boys: getting it right, which, of course, the minded adults. minister co-chaired. There is a proposal— The focus of the moment is on boys’ aca- and it was still alive at last report, at least— demic achievement levels and how to im- for amending legislation to clear the way for prove these. As I said in my speech on this proactive measures to increase the number of issue in this place on 5 February last year, it young men who choose teaching as a career. is vital for Australia’s future that we reverse It was no surprise to see that Labor’s educa- the dangerous trend of falling school tion spokeswoman and teacher unions are as achievement levels in boys. Unlike girls, one on this issue. They think it is a bad idea. who tend to be collegiate, cooperative, lat- They apparently have a predisposition to eral thinking by nature and—as they never preference hypocrisy when it comes to vot- tire of telling mere males—capable of doing ing on education issues. We have seen this so many things at once, boys need a firm highlighted particularly over teacher scholar- focus, a clear set of rules and a clear knowl- ships. But it is a pity because Labor and the edge of who is in charge. Their interests as teachers unions are missing a historic oppor- well as their capabilities are dissimilar from tunity. those of girls. There is nothing wrong with We need to move away from stereotyping that—it is the way nature has made the hu- and from knee-jerk responses to fundamental man species. We need to recognise that— policy issues in education. As a society we some ultrafeminists more so than most—and need to understand that the present debate is step away from mistaking gender equality not about the relative values of male versus for gender convergence. female teachers. There is no such issue. Aus- I think this is at the base of much of to- tralian teachers are among the best in the day’s debate about male teacher numbers in world; in many respects, I would contend schools, particularly in primary school class- that they are the best in the world. The fact rooms, and it is something that unites many that, by an increasing majority, they are people across party lines. There has been women is peripheral. In this debate we really plenty of movement on this issue since I are arguing, or we should be arguing, for a spoke about it in the Senate 13 months ago. reversal of the usual enjoinder to look to the The Howard government has acted on this quality and not the quantity. There are strong issue under the strong leadership of the arguments to suggest that boys do benefit Prime Minister. Labor, under new leader from being taught by men and probably in Mark Latham, has unfortunately only re- all-boy classes. acted—and that is a pity. It is a pity because There are two linked but essentially sepa- it demonstrates that, for all his own public rate matters at stake here. The first is aca- activism on returning male teachers to the demic outcome, which basically rules future classroom, the member for Werriwa is still earning capacity, career options and life the caucus captive of Labor’s femocrats, choices; the second is the crucial need to among them, apparently, his deputy. educate boys in the broader sense, as civic citizens and, later, as good fathers. These are

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21879 absolutely vital achievements for the future other educational context, a situation where health of our society. This has nothing to do political correctness overtakes common- with old stereotypes about he-men and she- sense. Ross Fitzgerald put this most aptly in women and everything to do with giving the Australian: every Australian child, female and male, the The great political debates in this country are best possible start in life. generally conducted by and between relatively Some academic commentators point out small numbers of interested people. that the data shows falling school perform- I suggest that education is not—as he sug- ance by boys is patchy. Beth Gaze, an asso- gests, and I agree—fundamentally a partisan ciate professor of law at Monash University, question. It is much too important for that. is the latest to give voice to this opinion, in Health: Hepatitis C print at least, in the Melbourne Age on Mon- Senator HUTCHINS (New South Wales) day. But, to a large extent, that response begs (7.00 p.m.)—I rise tonight to speak on hepa- the question. It is a cop-out. Falling perform- titis C, which affects 210,000 people, and ance by boys in Australian schools may well 16,000 Australians are infected each year. It be patchy, but the national task is to ensure is an illness which has an enormous effect on that boys do not fail within the school sys- the lives of those people who are unfortunate tem, whether in patches or across the board. enough to become infected. Hepatitis C is It is certainly no argument to suggest—and acquired as a result of a variety of proce- this is the subliminal message of much criti- dures but the common element is that it re- cism—that it is not so much of a problem quires blood-to-blood contact. According to because the data shows it is only a patchy the Australian Hepatitis Council, approxi- problem. It could be, in fact, patchy data. mately 83 per cent of people with hepatitis C That is another problem that would be solved acquired it as a result of injecting drug use; by a shift to a truly national curriculum un- 12 per cent through various other means such der which apples—bad or otherwise—could as unsafe tattooing, needle-stick injuries or be compared with apples. blood contact in the home; and the final five Other critics may be right when they say per cent, which is over 10 000 people, as a that teaching is undervalued in the monetary direct result of receiving transfused blood or terms by which our consumer society meas- blood products which contained hepatitis C. ures worth. But so are a lot of occupations, Those who suffer from hepatitis C, no and even more so vocations, under that scale matter how they acquired it, deserve the best of measurement. It is true, as Dale Spender health care available. In my opinion, those argues in her comment in the Courier-Mail who received what has come to be known as today, that some of the decline in boys’ tainted blood, in particular, deserve assis- school performance is relative. She notes that tance from governments and government 30 years ago as many as 30 to 40 per cent of agencies to manage a condition which they boys could not read or write proficiently and acquired through standard medical proce- they are probably doing better today. But that dures. Hepatitis C is an insidious illness also begs the question of whether it is a cop- which develops slowly, and some people out. A relative decline in education outcomes may not know they have it until a decade or is a decline nonetheless. It is the decline we so after they acquired it. Early symptoms of must combat, not the relativity. What we are the illness are most often lethargy, fatigue in danger of falling into here is, as the minis- and nausea. Once the illness progresses, liver ter for education said at the weekend in an-

CHAMBER 21880 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 damage can occur as a result of attempts by medical costs and loss of income and to al- an individual’s immune system to destroy low for the considerable pain and suffering infected cells within the liver. In the most they have endured. Many of the victims in severe cases serious scarring becomes cir- this unfortunate episode have been from rhosis of the liver, which can affect the groups which already deal with difficult liver’s ability to work effectively. medical conditions. Haemophiliacs, for ex- As Chair of the Senate Community Affairs ample, have a very high rate of hepatitis C References Committee, I will be a member infection because of their regular require- of the committee’s inquiry into hepatitis C ment for blood transfusions and blood prod- and the Australian blood supply. The com- ucts. As a result of their reliance on blood mittee will inquire into the history of post- and blood products, haemophiliacs were ex- transfusion hepatitis C in Australia—those posed to more blood and blood tainted with five per cent of hepatitis C sufferers who hepatitis C. In the process of treating their acquired hepatitis C as a result of what were, difficult medical conditions, those people in many cases, standard medical procedures. have encountered another serious illness Groups within the Australian community which makes their lives even more difficult have raised the issue of post-transfusion and their pain even worse. hepatitis C with me and explained that they Many of the submissions the committee are concerned by a number of the decisions has received so far have been from women made and procedures undertaken by Austra- who acquired hepatitis C during childbirth or lian blood providers and blood product as a result of medical procedures which were manufacturers. required as a result of childbirth. At a time in I expect the most important issue ad- their lives when they should have had the dressed by the inquiry will be the circum- opportunity to raise their children and give stances surrounding the actions of the Aus- them the best opportunities available, these tralian Red Cross Blood Service in applying women have been forced to contend with a tests for hepatitis C which became available battle against a very serious and energy- during the 1980s. Surrogate testing and ALT draining illness. testing were introduced in the United States Other countries, such as the United King- of America and other nations before they dom, Ireland and Canada, have already dealt were introduced here, and this raises obvious with these issues. They have set up compen- concerns about the appropriateness of deci- sation schemes which do not require victims sions made in Australia. While neither of of tainted blood to litigate in order to receive those tests could exclude all blood contain- compensation. They simply need to apply to ing hepatitis C, they could have reduced the the relevant authority such as the Hepatitis C amount of infected blood in the blood sup- and HIV Compensation Tribunal in Ireland. I ply, which could clearly have reduced the would hope that once the committee’s in- number of people who acquired hepatitis C. quiry has concluded the Australian govern- This is most certainly an issue which de- ment decides to move in a similar direction serves the close attention of any government. for the victims of post-transfusion hepatitis C In many ways the current government has here. Considering that many of these people been part of the problem. It has refused to seriously suffer from a debilitating illness, it provide all victims of post-transfusion hepa- is entirely unfair that they should be required titis C with compensation to cover their to expend money and energy on litigation to receive compensation for an illness acquired

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21881 through exceptionally unfortunate circum- fort made by our Minister for Trade, Mark stances. Vaile, and his team in negotiating the agree- I look forward to the commencement of ment. The document has been scrubbed and the hearings for this inquiry, which start next published. It is being looked at by the Joint Thursday. They will give the people who Standing Committee on Treaties, and a Sen- have suffered an opportunity to voice their ate select committee is also making inquiries. concerns and tell their stories. They will give They will report their findings in due course. the organisations involved in making deci- The negotiation of the free trade agree- sions about testing for hepatitis C the oppor- ment between Australia and the United States tunity to explain their actions. But, more im- will bring huge benefits for the Australian portantly, they will give the government evi- agricultural and manufacturing industries, dence that will, hopefully, lead to increased providing a tremendous boost for trade and resources for the sufferers of this serious ill- our trade relationship with the United States. ness that they acquired as a result of having We are both leading trading nations in a complete faith—which is justified now—in world where trade is often corrupted. We the Australian blood supply. came together in a bilateral sense with clean Madam Acting Deputy President McLu- hands in negotiating the FTA. The United cas, as you would know only too well, my States is our most important trading partner, tenure as Chairman of the Community Af- with an economy that accounts for one-third fairs References Committee is about to ex- of the world’s GDP, and I suspect our rela- pire. I have thoroughly enjoyed being part of tionship will become more important over that committee. It is one through which I the next 20 years, not less. After that who have learnt a great deal about my country knows? I guess that will depend on the and my fellow countrymen. I particularly strength of the Chinese influence as we un- thank the committee members who at times derstand it, and it is very important that we were very tolerant of my eccentricities. I have a good trade relationship with China as thank you, Acting Deputy President McLu- well. cas, and Senator Moore and the two Liberals Our trade relationship with China has who despite being Liberals are not bad peo- grown exponentially over the last four or five ple—Senator Sue Knowles and Senator Gary years, upwards of 10 or 15 per cent per year. Humphries. In particular I thank the dedi- It was interesting that in November last year cated secretariat led by a very decent man we had visits from both the President of the Mr Elton Humphery and the people under United States and the President of China on him—Christine McDonald, Peter Short, consecutive days. That reflected not only the Leonie Peake, Ingrid Zappe and Geraldine importance that Australia puts on its trade Badham. relationship with the United States, as evi- Trade: Free Trade Agreement denced by the FTA, but also the enormous synergy we have the Chinese economy. Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New South Wales) (7.08 p.m.)—I want to discuss The opening up of trade channels between the Australia-United States free trade agree- Australia and the United States is incredibly ment tonight because the dust has settled important. The FTA will mean many Austra- since it was announced in February. The lian exporting companies will now have free document has now been published, and it is and open access to markets in the United proper to again recognise the incredible ef- States. Agricultural producers will see the

CHAMBER 21882 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 majority of tariffs reduced to zero immedi- Australian dairy farmers will more than ately, and the rest over time. I believe that double their access to the world’s second Australia will get far more out of this trade largest dairy market, and that will happen deal than the United States. On that point this immediately. It is suggested that this initial is probably the most exciting thing that has increase will be worth over $50 million in happened to Australia since I have been in 2005, and there will be about a five per cent the Senate. This FTA is incredibly good news increase every year after that. This is won- for Australia, and I do not think we should derful news for the dairy industry. I see my sell it short for one moment. colleague Senator McGauran in the chamber. Agriculture will certainly benefit. Manu- He represents the state of Victoria, which facturing will benefit. Existing jobs will be produces a very large percentage of our ex- retained and new jobs will be created. Our port dairy product. I know he is delighted economy will continue to grow from the with the impact that this will have on his benefits that will flow from new opportuni- state and on his industry. ties. Over 97 per cent of Australian non- Other agricultural sectors will see a reduc- agricultural exports to the United States, tion in tariffs and will benefit from gaining worth about $6½ billion last year, will gain access to a market of more than 300 million duty-free entry into the United States. Under people. The single desk exporting arrange- the FTA around 66 per cent of tariffs on agri- ments in wheat, rice and barley will all re- cultural products will be cut to zero immedi- main intact. That was of the utmost impor- ately, with a number of other tariffs reduced tance to the Australian government when it over the following five years of the agree- was negotiating the deal and, of course, to ment. In time our beef industry will achieve crop producers nationwide. While sugar has completely free trade with the United States. not been included in the FTA and will not The in-quota tariff is to be eliminated imme- benefit from increased market access, it is no diately, saving around $16 million a year in worse off for not being included and will tariff revenue alone. Presently our quota with certainly be better off when the government the United States is about 380,000 tonnes. delivers on its promised compensation ar- Only once in 15 years have we reached our rangements as we move into 2005. The agri- quota of beef into North America, so the cultural deal in the US FTA delivers substan- elimination of the in-quota tariff is very use- tial market access gains for the majority of ful. Australian agricultural producers—including In addition to the substantial WTO quota the beef and dairy industries, which have that Australia already holds with the US, our faced restrictive barriers in the US market beef producers will have access for an addi- before. tional 15,000 tonnes of beef in year 2, in- Under the manufacturing industry, virtu- creasing to 70,000 tonnes in year 18. Then ally all of Australia’s exports to the United effectively it will be free trade. There has States—worth a very substantial amount of been some criticism of the time that it will money—will be duty-free from day one. Tar- take for our beef quota to become in effect iffs on textiles, some footwear and a handful free trade. Eighteen years may seem a long of other items will be phased out, with all time but, in terms of the development of trade in goods free of duty by 2015. A trade links and relationships and industries mechanism to address nontariff barriers will developing and strengthening, 18 years is also be established. Access to US markets like an evening gone. has been enhanced for Australian service

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21883 suppliers such as providers of professional, Heiner Affair and Lindeberg Grievance business, education, environmental, financial Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (7.17 and transport services. A framework to pro- p.m.)—This evening I wish to speak once mote mutual recognition of professional ser- again on the Heiner affair. Today I gave no- vices has been developed—a big gain for tice of my intention tomorrow to put to the Australian professionals doing business in vote the establishment of a Senate select the United States—and, most importantly, committee on the Lindeberg grievance. You the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme will not will recall that the Heiner affair came under be affected by the US FTA. The price of pre- debate in early December 2003 when the scription medicines will not be increased by government, the Australian Democrats, this agreement. The Australian government Senator Murphy and I agreed that the issue was firm in its stance that the PBS be re- was serious. The Labor Party wanted to put tained and unchanged, and Australia will the matter behind us and look to the future improve the transparency of the PBS proc- welfare of children, rather than focusing on esses. This will include making more infor- those caught up in the abuse of the past. mation available about the reason for rec- As always happens with Heiner, more se- ommendations to add medicines to the PBS, rious revelations and important develop- which is something very dear to the Austra- ments have occurred which confirm that we lian community. must revisit the affair in 2004 if our commit- I urge our political opponents, the Labor tee system, and this parliament itself, is to be Party, to take a very good look at all the good respected and retain any credibility through- things that will come out of the FTA with the out the nation. I make this point clear: our United States. I do not believe that Labor are first duty is to preserve and protect the Sen- serving Australia well in opposing this one- ate’s privilege. Unless parliamentary privi- off chance to conclude such a historic trade lege is protected from abuse—for example, linkage with the United States, and I agree when we hear evidence in our committees or with a commentator who said that any other in this chamber it must be truthful, complete country that had been offered this deal could and not tampered with—our democracy will not have got to their pen quickly enough to fail. The Senate cannot afford such a price. sign it. You might say that Labor believe it is Unless we demand the truth, our findings all right to have an FTA with Thailand or will be open to ridicule—and rightly so. Pro- Singapore or even New Zealand, but when it viding evidence to us to formulate legislation comes to the United States they equivocate. I in Australia’s interests will become a hap- cannot understand this anti-America element hazard affair and a potentially deceitful exer- in the Australian Labor Party. To me, it is cise, because it will not seem to matter in the inexplicable, it is opportunistic and it is sad scheme of things if we do not care. However, on this occasion because it is not in the best I most certainly do care. interests of Australia. The United States is Heiner brings a litmus test to the Senate. one of the most important economies in the Can a state government or a law enforcement world, and the deal negotiated is good for authority, or perhaps others, wilfully provide Australia; it is in Australia’s best interests in untruthful evidence or tamper with it—in both the short and long term. I commend it to this case concerning child abuse—and get the Senate and to the Australian people. away with it? Or will the Senate live up to its historical and constitutionally important role

CHAMBER 21884 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 in our great democracy as a house of review pretation—yet the Queensland government and always demand the truth of witnesses and CJC told this Senate otherwise. who come before it? Will the Senate have the There is compelling evidence which courage to refer a contempt or an inappropri- strongly suggests that this provision of the ate authority for remedy if it is found to in- Criminal Code was deliberately twisted for volve possible obstruction of justice? Should an improper purpose by the Queensland gov- sworn evidence be returned? This is a water- ernment and the CJC, and thereby was shed moment in the history of the Senate. knowingly done to mislead the Senate in its Since I last spoke on this issue, an impor- deliberations. The Senate cannot, in the face tant criminal trial has been held and a verdict of overwhelming evidence, leave the present brought down in Brisbane on 11 March 2004 description of the shredding of the Heiner involving the same principles found in inquiry documents as ‘an exercise in poor Heiner, except in Heiner the elements are judgment’ when the Senate now knows that clearer and far more serious. I refer to the an Australian citizen has been charged and State of Queensland v. Douglas Ensbey court found guilty, while others who engaged in case. In this case, Baptist pastor Douglas the same heinous conduct have got off scot- Ensbey was found guilty in the Queensland free because they were politicians and senior District Court of destruction of evidence pur- bureaucrats. It makes a mockery of our suant to section 129 of the Queensland standing in the community because, as long Criminal Code. Pastor Ensbey destroyed as that description stands, the Senate is documents containing evidence of child sex- showing to the world that it believes in dou- ual abuse some five years before the judicial ble standards in the application of the crimi- proceedings commenced. Importantly, Judge nal law when it affects parliamentarians. Nick Samios ruled in a matter of minutes I also inform the Senate that, on 16 March that section 129 of the criminal code did not 2004 in Brisbane when Heiner came under require a judicial proceeding to be on foot to investigation again by the House of Repre- trigger it. This is exactly what Mr Lindeberg sentatives Legal and Constitutional Affairs has been declaring is the law for the past 14 Committee, it was firmly established by a years. witness to the Heiner inquiry that Mr Heiner This judicial interpretation accords with did indeed take evidence and inquire into the the views expressed by my colleague Senator pack rape of a 14-year-old female Indigenous George Brandis when he spoke on this mat- inmate, for which no-one—I repeat: no- ter in November. The Judge Samios interpre- one—has ever been held to account. That tation was no surprise really, because it ac- evidence, I remind you, was shredded by corded with High Court Justice Ian Callinan order of the Goss cabinet, when plainly it QC when he represented Mr Lindeberg as should have been referred to the police or the senior counsel before the Senate in 1995. CJC. It was destroyed not only to deliber- Eminent jurists, Messrs Tony Morris QC and ately prevent it from being used in evidence Robert F. Greenwood QC, placed the Linde- in a judicial proceeding but also so that it berg grievance before this chamber in May could not be used against the careers of the 2001. Former Queensland supreme and ap- staff at the centre, who owed that girl a duty peal court judge Justice Jim Thomas advised of care. Fresh evidence has also come to the Justice Project in 2003 that section 129 hand showing that a National Party family was never open to any other interpretation— minister in March 1989 was either misled by I repeat: was never open to any other inter- departmental bureaucracy into believing that

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21885 the rape victim—assuming it was the same War Grave Commission, in the United King- girl—was 17 when the rape took place. We dom, has made its first inspection of the know that the girl was 14 and not legally grave of Will Dyson and his wife, Ruby. capable of giving consent to sexual inter- The Commonwealth War Grave Commis- course. sion has also agreed to include the Dysons’ This matter is the business of the Senate grave site on its inspection list and will carry because it concerns possible contempt of the out necessary maintenance work. The costs Senate. That is our threshold question of for this maintenance work will be met by the privilege which we must consider. We cannot Office of Australian War Graves. This will avoid our responsibility in this; otherwise we ensure the headstone of the Dysons’ grave will show ourselves to be hypocrites. This will not, as it did in the 1960s, fall into dis- chamber was prepared to debate and deplore repair. a former Governor-General’s handling of an Will Dyson, who was born in Ballarat in allegation of child sexual abuse and to force 1880, was a gifted artist as well as a political him out of office. But when an incident of satirist and writer. In 1910 Will Dyson and similar, if not worse, conduct of criminal his wife, Ruby Lind—Norman Lindsay’s paedophilia comes before us, it is too hard, sister, who was also a talented artist—moved too dangerous, or is it that we could not care to London. By 1916 Dyson was famous for less? his artwork, including his bestseller Kultur I do care, and this chamber should care. Cartoons. Dyson is best known for his depic- We should all abhor double standards. I have tions of war on the Western Front, where he reintroduced the notice of motion, and I will arrived in 1916 and was officially commis- put the motion to the vote on the next sitting sioned as an Australian War Artist with the day so that this nation can be proud that we AIF. According to the Australian War Memo- care enough here in the Senate about privi- rial web site: leges and about our children that we are pre- Dyson’s initiative played a significant role in the pared to take on the most difficult tasks information of the Australian Official War Artists volving possible political hurt by supporting program. the establishment of this Senate select com- For two years, Will Dyson continued to work mittee on the Lindeberg grievance. If the on the Western Front, ensuring that a com- motion is voted down tomorrow, the Austra- prehensive record of the soldiers was main- lian people will hold us in derision forever. tained. In The story of Australian art, author Dyson, Mr Will William Moore wrote: Senator FAULKNER (New South Dyson closely identified himself with the opera- Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- tions of his countrymen and took risks which ate) (7.27 p.m.)—Almost three years ago it were not demanded from an official artist. He was became apparent that Will Dyson, Australia’s wounded at Messines on 31 July 1917 and again at Zonnebeke five months later. He is represented first official war artist, was resting in an un- by the largest number of works in the Australian marked grave at London’s Hendon cemetery. War Memorial. Since then, Dyson enthusiasts have worked In 1919 Dyson’s wife, Ruby, suddenly died to rectify this situation. Thanks to those ef- of influenza aged only 32. Dyson was forts, the headstone of the Dysons’ grave was changed forever by his experiences of war restored last year. Tonight I am pleased to and the death of his beloved wife. In 1938, inform the Senate that the Commonwealth Will Dyson suddenly died of a heart attack

CHAMBER 21886 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 and was buried next to his wife, Ruby, at DOCUMENTS London’s Hendon cemetery. Tabling I want to thank everyone who has worked The following government documents on this project in the past few years, in par- were tabled: ticular Robin Ollington and the dedicated Customs Act 1901—Customs (Prohibited group around him in London. I also want to Exports) Regulations 1958—Permissions thank the many people who have kindly do- granted under regulation 7— nated money to this cause, particularly Dame March to June 2003. Elisabeth Murdoch. The CEW Bean Founda- tion has also joined in these efforts. I place 1 July to 31 December 2003. on the record tonight my appreciation of the Tabling Commonwealth War Graves Commission The following documents were tabled by and the Office of Australian War Graves the Clerk: agreeing to maintain the upkeep and the Corporations Act—Declaration under ongoing costs of the grave site of Will Dyson sections 926A, 951B, 992B and 1020F, and his wife, Ruby. In the moments remain- dated 23 February 2004. ing to me, I seek leave to incorporate a copy Federal Court of Australia Act—Rules of of the letter from the Minister for Veterans’ Court—Statutory Rules 2004 No. 38. Affairs, Danna Vale, formalising these ar- Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Act— rangements. Regulations—Statutory Rules 2004 No. 39. Leave granted. Quarantine Act—Guidelines for use of The letter read as follows— National Emergency Response Powers. Dear John, Superannuation Act 1990—Twentieth Amending Deed under section 5, dated Further to verbal advice from Air Vice Marshal 23 March 2004. Gary Beck AO (Retd), Director of the Office of Australian War Graves, I am pleased to advise Indexed Lists of Files that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission The following documents were tabled (CWGC), United Kingdom, has now undertaken pursuant to the order of the Senate of 30 May the first inspection of the grave of renowned 1996, as amended: World War I artist Will Dyson in the Hendon Indexed lists of departmental and agency Cemetery, London. files for the period 1 July to 31 December In conjunction with the CWGC, the Office of 2003—Statements of compliance— Australian War Graves (OAWG) has arranged for Department of Foreign Affairs and inclusion of the grave on the Commission’s in- Trade. spection list. Any future maintenance will be car- Department of Transport and Regional ried out by the CWGC, with costs to be reim- Services. bursed by OAWG. Thank you for your interest in this matter. DANNA VALE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT Senate adjourned at 7.31 p.m.

CHAMBER Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21887

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated:

Attorney-General’s: Paper and Paper Products (Question Nos 2250 and 2260) Senator O’Brien asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General and the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 14 October 2003: For each of the financial years 2001-02 and 2002-03 can the following details be provided in relation to paper and paper products: (1) How much has been spent by the department on these products. (2) From which countries of origin has the department sourced these products. (3) From which companies has the department sourced these products. (4) What was the percentage of the total of paper and paper products in value (in AUD) sourced by the department by country. (5) What was the percentage of the total of paper and paper products in value (in AUD) sourced by the department by company. (6) What steps has the department taken to ensure that paper and paper products sourced by the department from other countries comply with the ISO 14001 environmental management system standard. Senator Ellison—The Attorney-General has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) The department spent $131,769 in 2001-2 and $163,736 in 2002-3 on paper and paper products. These costs do not include toilet paper or paper rolls as these elements are included in the department’s cleaning costs as consumables. (2) The department has purchased its paper products from Australian companies and is unaware of where these companies source their products. (3) The department has purchased paper products from Detagna Pty Ltd (Commonwealth Paper/Edwards Dunlop); Envotec Pty Ltd (Australian Envelopes), Fuji Xerox Australia Pty Ltd, Kalamazoo (Aust.) Pty Ltd and Spicers Paper Pty Ltd. (4) The department has purchased its paper products from Australian companies and is unaware of where these companies source their products. (5) The percentage of paper and paper products sourced by the department for each company is as follows: 2001-2 2002-3 $ % $ % Detagna Pty Ltd 116,416 88.3 148,512 90.8 Kalamazoo (Aust.) Pty Ltd 12,218 9.3 994 0.6 Fuji Xerox Australia Pty Ltd 1,539 1.2 1,871 1.1 Spicers Paper Ltd 1,596 1.2 1,514 0.9 Envotec Pty Ltd - - 10,845 6.6 Total 131,769 100 163,736 100 (6) The department has purchased paper and paper products from Australian companies only.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 21888 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Australian Broadcasting Corporation: Redundancies (Question No. 2403) Senator Mackay asked the Minister representing the Minister for Communications, In- formation Technology and the Arts, upon notice, on 27 November 2003: How many individuals who accepted redundancy packages from the Australian Broadcasting Corpora- tion (ABC) during the period 1 January 2000 to 1 January 2002 and who have subsequently turned to the ABC to perform paid work for the broadcaster, on a full-time, part-time, casual, contract, fee-for- service or consultancy basis, returned to the ABC within 12 months of accepting their redundancy packages. Senator Kemp—The Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: The ABC has advised that, during the period 1 January 2000 to 1 January 2002, eight individuals undertook paid work for the ABC within 12 months of accepting their redundancy packages. Shipping: Oil Discharges (Question No. 2524) Senator Nettle asked the Minister representing the Minister for Transport and Regional Services, upon notice, on 3 February 2004: (1) How many of the 345 ‘oil discharges’ off the coast of Australia in 2002 reported by the Australian Marine Safety Authority were investigated. (2) Has the department found that some ships pump oil from sump tanks out at sea rather than disposing of the oil properly in port. (3) How many ships leave ports annually without being inspected. (4) (a) How much is the annual revenue from the marine oil pollution levy on large ships; and (b) how is this spent. (5) Will the Minister initiate a review of current ship inspection and tracking protocols to better account for oil waste management and facilitate spill investigation. Senator Ian Campbell—The Minister for Transport and Regional Services has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) All oil discharges reported to AMSA are investigated. (2) Yes. (3) This depends on the type and risk rating of each ship. In 2002, 80 per cent of all ‘eligible’ ships visiting Australian ports were inspected, including 95 per cent of eligible high risk ships. Since December 2002, all single hulled tankers have been targeted for inspection. An ‘eligible’ ship is one that has not been inspected in the last 6 months or 3 months for all double hulled tankers more than 15 years of age and passenger vessels. (4) (a) $3.89 million in 2002-2003. (b) The levy funds AMSA’s management of Australia’s National Plan to Combat Pollution of the Sea by Oil and Other Noxious and Hazardous Substances coordinating the national preparedness and response capability to ship sourced oil and chemical spills. (5) No. The inspection of foreign flag ships visiting Australian ports in relation to oil waste management and oil spill investigation is regulated under the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution of the Sea by Ships 1973/78 (MARPOL) and Australia’s port State control inspection program already exercises the full powers available to Australia under the Convention.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21889

The Navigation Act 1912 already requires position reporting by ships, in accordance with the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), and the reporting of accidents and incidents occurring to a ship and the Protection of the Sea (Prevention of Pollution from Ships) Act 1983 requires reporting by ships of oil pollution incidents. Environment: Protected Marine Areas (Question No. 2592) Senator Bartlett asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 26 February 2004: (1) How much has the Government spent on the processes of identifying and selecting Marine Protected Areas (MPAs) in the Murray and Zeehan Broad Areas of Interest within the South East Marine Region. (2) Will the Government set targets for the percentage of the South East Marine Region bioregions that should be protected in MPAs and the percentage of the South East Marine Region bioregions that should be declared ‘no-take’ areas; if so, what are those targets expected to be. (3) What role has the National Oceans Office played in the MPA identification and selection process for the South East Marine Region. (4) Will a candidate system of MPAs be included in the final South East Regional Marine Plan; if not, why not. Senator Ian Macdonald—The Minister for the Environment and Heritage has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) $531,000, some of which will have an impact on the development of candidate MPAs in the remaining Broad Areas of Interest. (2) No. Specifications have been developed to help identify comprehensive, adequate and representative samples of key bioregions in the South-east Marine Region. The specifications will be used by the government to work with guide stakeholders to identify candidate MPAs using the best available information on ‘representative’ features and ecological considerations. (3) The National Oceans Office is responsible for the South-east Regional Marine Planning process and the collation of supporting information regarding resources and biodiversity in the South-east Marine Region. This process provides the framework under which the Department of the Environment and Heritage is developing a system of representative MPAs in the South-east. (4) A complete candidate system of MPAs will not be included in the South-east Regional Marine Plan. The Government’s commitment to the extensive engagement and participation of a wide range of stakeholders including conservation groups, fishing industry representatives, petroleum industry representatives, indigenous representatives and recreational fishing representatives has meant that the full set of MPA options will be finalised after the Plan is published. The Plan will set out the framework and key policy parameters within which the regional system of MPAs will be completed. Australian Customs Service: Counter-Terrorism Section (Question No. 2637) Senator Ludwig asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 2 March 2004: (1) (a) How many full-time Australian Customs Service (ACS) personnel are employed in the Counter- Terrorism Section of ACS; and (b) at what Australian Public Service (APS) levels are these personnel employed.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 21890 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

(2) (a) How many part-time ACS personnel are employed in the Counter-Terrorism Section; and (b) at what APS levels are these personnel employed. (3) Under what departmental output are these personnel employed. Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) The Counter Terrorism Section was merged with the Security Section of Customs in August 2003, forming the Security and Counter Terrorism Section. There are four full-time Customs personnel employed in the Counter-Terrorism sub-section. Customs personnel employed in this section are: 1 x Australian Public Service (APS) Executive Level 1 (Customs Level 4) 1 x APS – Administrative Services Officer (ASO) 5/6 (Customs Level 3) 1 x APS – ASO3/4 (Customs Level 2) 1x APS – ASO1/2 (Customs Level 1) (2) There are no part-time Customs personnel employed in the Counter-Terrorism Section. (3) The Security and Counter Terrorism section is part of the Border Intelligence and Passengers Division and the Counter Terrorism sub-section’s personnel are employed under departmental output 2: “Facilitation of the legitimate movement of people across the border, while identifying illegal movements.” Australian Customs Service: Bay Class Vessels (Question No. 2642) Senator Ludwig asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 2 March 2004: (1) Do the crews aboard Bay class Australian Customs Service (ACS) launches receive training specifically for boarding vessels with the consent of the masters of those vessels. (2) Is this training conducted by ACS. (3) Was the training package for this role designed by ACS; if not, who designed the training package. (4) Do the crews aboard these launches receive training specifically for boarding vessels without the consent of the masters of those vessels. (5) Is this training conducted by ACS. (6) Was the training package for this role designed by ACS; if not, who designed the training package. Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Customs National Marine Unit (NMU) seagoing crewmembers onboard Bay Class Australian Customs Vessels (ACVs) receive initial and annual Use of Force training which prepares them to conduct vessel boardings. This training prepares them to undertake ‘compliant’ (consensual) and ‘unco-operative’ boardings only. Current policy does not allow NMU seagoing crewmembers to board vessels considered ‘hostile’. Hostile boardings are those that surpass both compliant and unco-operative boardings where a target vessel’s crew or others onboard are acting in an overtly hostile manner. In essence a hostile boarding can be described as one where the use of force, including lethal force, in order to secure control of a vessel during a boarding may be expected. NMU Use of Force policy and training is designed so that officers are prepared to deliver Use of Force options in self-defence situations, where they may be called upon to defend themselves or others they are protecting. (2) In part yes. Training is based primarily upon, and very closely aligned to, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) ‘Use of Force continuum’ model. AFP officers deliver training with the assistance of

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21891

NMU officers. Training is also very closely aligned with peacetime Rules of Engagement (ROE) policy adopted by the Australian Defence Force (ADF) when conducting the same civil surveillance and response activities. AFP officers, supported by NMU officers, deliver both initial and annual re-certification training, while NMU trained Operational Safety Training officers deliver regular continuation training. (3) The training package is based primarily upon, and very closely aligned to, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) ‘Use of Force continuum’ model. The package is modified as required by the ACS, in agreement with the AFP, to suit operations in a maritime environment. (4) NMU seagoing crewmembers are trained to conduct ‘compliant’ (consensual) and ‘unco-operative’ boardings. An unco-operative boarding could very well be conducted without the consent of the Master of a target vessel and depends upon the level of resistance expected. If lethal force is expected from a target vessel or is expected to be used in boarding a target vessel this constitutes a ‘hostile’ boarding situation for which NMU seagoing crewmembers are not trained. (5) AFP officers, supported by NMU officers, deliver both initial and annual re-certification training. NMU officers trained by the AFP and certified as Operational Safety Training officers deliver regular continuation training. (6) The training package is based primarily upon, and very closely aligned to, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) ‘Use of Force continuum’ model. The package is modified as required by the ACS, in agreement with the AFP, to suit operations in a maritime environment. Australian Customs Service: Bay Class Vessels (Question No. 2643) Senator Ludwig asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 2 March 2004: (1) (a). How many crewmembers do each of the Bay class Australian Customs Service (ACS) launches carry; and (b).at what Australian Public Service levels are they employed. (2) Are these crew individually armed; if so, what armament do they carry. (3) Are the ACS launches armed; if so, what armament is used. (4) Is the supply of ammunition for these weapons contracted out to agencies or companies outside the ACS; if not, what is the annual cost of arming these launches. (5) Is the maintenance of these weapons contracted out to agencies or companies outside the ACS; if not, what is the annual cost of maintaining these launches (weapons?). Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) (a) Bay class launches operate with a ‘nominal’ crew of eight Customs officers. This number is either reduced or supplemented to meet specific operational requirements and/or Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) requirements. (b) The table below outlines crew positions and equivalent Australian Public Service (APS) levels. Crew Positions Customs Level APS Level Commanding Officer 3 6 Engineer 3 6 Second-in-command 2 5 Third-in-command 2 5 Second Engineer 2 5 General purpose hands (x3) 1 1,2 & 3 (2) All National Marine Unit (NMU) seagoing crewmembers are trained in the use of the following weapons;

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE 21892 SENATE Wednesday, 24 March 2004

Glock 17, 9mm pistol, M16 automatic rifle, and Remington 12 gauge Marine Magnum Shotgun. When conducting boarding operations seagoing crewmembers are individually armed with the Glock. The M16 is used to support operations from onboard the Customs vessel. Under such circumstances the M16 provides an additional show of force, can be used to fire warning shots across the bow of a target vessel (as one of the International signals for the vessel to slow or heave to for boarding) or provide covering fire to a deployed Boarding Party. The shotgun is not used as part of Customs ‘Use of Force continuum’. It is available for the self-protection of officers when conducting operations ashore in dangerous and remote environments where hostile animals, such as sharks, crocodiles, buffalo and other wild beasts might be encountered. (3) Customs vessels are not armed with any deck mounted weapons or heavy calibre weapons. The weapons listed at paragraph 2 above are currently the only weapons carried onboard Australian Customs Vessels (ACVs). (4) The NMU has no contract in place for the purchase and supply of ammunition with any one company. The NMU has an arrangement with the Northern Territory Police Service who purchase and house ammunition for the NMU in Darwin. Small quantities of ammunition are also purchased from local gun shops around the country. The annual cost of operational ammunition for all Customs vessels $8000.00. (5) The NMU utilises the Australian Federal Police (AFP) armory at Canberra and the Northern Territory police armory for ongoing maintenance and servicing of all operational safety equipment – including weapons. Also, if an ACV is in a scheduled survey/maintenance period, firearms onboard may also be serviced by a local authorised armourer. Finally, routine maintenance of firearms is carried out onboard by seagoing crewmembers. The annual cost to service all operational Glocks, M-16 rifles and Shotguns is $5120.00 plus parts and transport. Australian Customs Service: Counter-Terrorism Section (Question No. 2649) Senator Ludwig asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 2 March 2004: (1) What is the function of the Australia Customs Service (ACS) Counter-Terrorism Section. (2) (a) How many ACS personnel are employed in this section; and (b) at what Australian Public Service levels are they employed. (3) Where is the section’s headquarters. Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) The Counter Terrorism Section was merged with the Security Section of Customs in August 2003, forming the Security and Counter Terrorism Section. The function of the Counter-Terrorism sub- section is to provide an internal and external focal point for counter-terrorism representations, liaison and incident response preparedness. The Counter-Terrorism sub-section maintains Customs National Counter-Terrorism Plan, counter-terrorism specific contingency arrangements and secure communications with relevant Australian Government agencies. (2) Customs personnel employed in this sub-section are: 1 x Australian Public Service (APS) Executive Level 1 (Customs Level 4) 1 x APS – Administrative Services Officer (ASO) 5/6 (Customs Level 3)

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Wednesday, 24 March 2004 SENATE 21893

1 x APS – ASO3/4 (Customs Level 2) 1x APS – ASO1/2 (Customs Level 1) (3) The Counter-Terrorism sub-section is based in the Customs Central Office in Canberra with counter-terrorism coordinators appointed in each Region.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE