Discovering the common ground of

Interview with Karen Armstrong by Andrea Bistrich

Karen Armstrong, the British theologian terrorists, but this is rarely reported and author of numerous books on the great in the Western media. Terror is a religions, has advanced the theory that fun- political act, which may use (or damentalist is a response to and abuse) the language of religion, but product of modern culture. A Catholic it absorbs some of the nihilistic viol- for seven years, she left her order while ence of modernity, which has cre- studying at Oxford University. She is one of ated self-destructive nuclear the 18 leading group members of the Alli- weapons and still threatens to use ance of Civilizations, an initiative of the them today. An important survey former UN General Secretary Kofi Annan, showed that every single suicide with the purpose of fighting extremism and bombing since the 1980s was po- furthering dialogue between the Western litically rather than religiously - and Islamic . Andrea Bistrich inter- tivated: the main grievance was the viewed her for Share International. occupation by the West and its al- lies of Muslim lands. Share International: 9/11 has become the symbol of major hostilities between SI: The sense of polarization has photo: Jerry Bauer and the West. After the attacks many Amer- been sharpened by recent contro- Karen Armstrong icans asked: “Why do they hate us?” And versies – the Danish cartoons of experts in numerous roundtable talks de- the Prophet Mohammed, the Pope’s re- tury. There is fundamentalist , bated if Islam is an inherently violent reli- marks about Islam, the issue of face-veils , , , and gion. Is it? and whether they hinder integration. as well as fundamentalist Is- Karen Armstrong: There is far more violence Harvard-Professor Samuel Huntington in- lam. Of the three monotheistic religions – in the Bible than in the Qur’an; the idea that troduced the notion of a “clash of civiliza- Judaism, Christianity and Islam – Islam was Islam imposed itself by the sword is a West- tions”. Are the “Christian West” and the the last to develop a fundamentalist strain ern fiction, fabricated during the time of the “Muslim World” fundamentally incom- during the 1960s. Crusades when, in fact, it was Western Chris- patible? represents a revolt tians who were fighting brutal holy wars KA: The divisions in our world are not the against secular modern society, which separ- against Islam. The Qur’an forbids aggress- result of religion or culture but are politi- ates religion and politics. Wherever a West- ive warfare and permits war only in self- cally based. There is an imbalance of power ern secularist government is established, a defence. The moment the enemy sues for in the world, and the powerless are begin- religious counter-culturalist protest move- peace, the Qur’an insists that Muslims must ning to challenge the hegemony of the “Great ment rises up alongside it in conscious re- lay down their arms and accept whatever Powers”, declaring their independence of jection. Fundamentalists want to bring terms are offered, even if they are disadvant- them – often using religious language to do and religion from the sidelines to which they ageous. Later Muslim law forbade Muslims so. A lot of what we call “fundamentalism” have been relegated in modern culture back to attack a country where Muslims were can often be seen as a religious form of na- to centre stage. All fundamentalism is rooted permitted to practice their freely; the tionalism, an assertion of identity. The old in a profound fear of annihilation; whether killing of civilians was prohibited, as were 19th century European nationalist ideal has they are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, fun- the destruction of property and the use of become tarnished and has always been for- damentalists are convinced that secular or fire in warfare. eign to the . In the Muslim world, liberal society wants to wipe them out. This people are redefining themselves according is not paranoid: Jewish fundamentalism SI: Despite such interdictions in the Qur’an to their religion in an attempt to return to took two major strides forward: one after some Muslims have become murderers. How their roots after the great colonialist disrup- the Nazi Holocaust, the second after the can people be religious and yet be willing tion. Yom Kippur War of 1973. In some parts of to blow themselves up and kill others in the Middle East, was established the name of Allah ? SI: What has made fundamentalism so ap- so rapidly and aggressively that it was ex- KA: To kill a single human being violates parently predominant today? perienced as a lethal assault. the principles of every single religion, in- KA: The militant piety that we call “funda- cluding Islam. Terrorism is an unreligious mentalism” erupted in every single major SI: The fact that fundamentalism is also a act. Muslims have repeatedly disowned the world faith in the course of the 20th cen- phenomenon in politics was stressed re- SHARE INTERNATIONAL 19 VOL. 26, NO. 7 — SEPTEMBER 2007 cently by former US president Jimmy the target of Western greed. In the West, in in the ) and others regard it as Carter when he voiced his concerns over order to preserve our strategic position and purely neutral and hold aloof from it as far the increasing merging of religion and cheap oil supply, we have often supported as they can. Many Jews too see Israel as state in the Bush administration, and the rulers – such as the shahs of Iran, the Saudis rising phoenix-like out of the ashes of element of fundamentalism in the White and, initially, Saddam Hussein – who have Auschwitz and have found it a way of cop- House. Carter sees traits of religious fun- established dictatorial regimes which sup- ing with the Shoah [holocaust]. damentalists are also applicable to neo- pressed any normal opposition. The only But for many Muslims the plight of the conservatives: “... they are led by author- place where people felt free to express their Palestinians represents everything that is itarian males who consider themselves su- distress has been the mosque. wrong with the modern world. The fact that perior to others; they believe the past is The modern world has been very vio- in 1948, 750,000 Palestinians could lose their better than the present; they draw distinc- lent. Between 1914 and 1945, 70 million homes with the apparent approval of the tions between themselves, as true believers, people died in Europe as a result of war. We world symbolizes the impotence of Islam in and others; those who oppose their should not be surprised that modern reli- the modern world vis-à-vis the West. The position are seen as evil; ... their self- gion has become violent too; it often mimics Qur’an teaches that if Muslims live justly definitions are narrow and restricted; they the violence preached by secular politicians. and decently, their societies will prosper isolate themselves; ... they view negotia- Most of the violence and terror that con- because they will be in tune with the funda- tion and efforts to resolve differences as cerns us in the Muslim world has grown up mental laws of the universe. Islam was al- signs of weakness ...”, Carter writes. in regions where warfare, displacement and ways a religion of success, going from one There seems to be a major conflict be- conflict have been traumatic and have even triumph to another, but Muslims have been tween, on the one hand, the hard-liners or become chronic: the Middle East, Palestine, able to make no headway against the secu- conservatives, and on the other the Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir. lar West and the plight of the Palestinians progressives. Is this a typical phenomenon epitomizes this impotence. is also of today’s world? SI: You have said that for Muslims the Arab- the third holiest place in the Islamic world, KA: The United States is not alone in this. Israeli conflict has become “a symbol of and when Muslims see their sacred shrines There is a new intolerance and aggression their impotence in the modern world”. on the Haram al-Sharif [the Noble Sanctu- in Europe too as well as in Muslim coun- Could you explain? ary, also known as Temple Mount] sur- tries and the Middle East. Culture is always KA: The Arab-Israeli conflict began, on rounded by the towering Israeli settlements – and has always been – contested. There both sides, as a purely secular conflict about and feel that their holy city is slipping daily are always people who have a different view a land. Zionism began as a rebellion against from their grasp, this symbolizes their be- of their country and are ready to fight for it. religious Judaism and at the outset most leaguered identity. However, it is important American Christian fundamentalists are not Orthodox rabbis condemned Zionism as a to note that the Palestinians only adopted a in favour of democracy; and it is true that blasphemous of the Land of religiously articulated ideology relatively many of the Neo-Cons, many of whom in- Israel, one of the most sacred symbols of late – long after Islamic fundamentalism had cline towards this fundamentalism, have Judaism. Similarly, the ideology of the Pal- become a force in countries such as Egypt very hardline, limited views. These are dan- estinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was or Pakistan. Their resistance movement re- gerous and difficult times and when people secular – many of the Palestinians, of course, mained secular in ethos until the first are frightened they tend to retreat into ideo- are Christian. But, unfortunately, the con- Intifada in 1987. And it is also important to logical ghettos and build new barriers flict was allowed to fester; on both sides note that Hamas, for example, is very differ- against the “other.” the conflict became sacralized and, there- ent from a movement like Al-Qaeda, which Democracy is really what religious peo- fore, far more difficult to sort out. has global ambitions. Hamas is a resistance ple call “a state of grace.” It is an ideal that In most fundamentalist movements, cer- movement; it does not attack Americans or is rarely achieved, that has constantly to be tain issues acquire symbolic value and come British but concentrates on attacking the reaffirmed, lest it be lost. And it is very diffi- to represent everything that is wrong with occupying power. It is yet another instance cult to fulfil. We are all – Americans and Euro- modernity. In Judaism, the secular state of of “fundamentalism” as a religious form of peans – falling short of the democratic ideal Israel has inspired every single fundament- nationalism. during the so-called “war against terror.” alist movement, because it represents so The Arab-Israeli conflict has also be- graphically the penetration of the secular come pivotal to Christian fundamentalists SI: Could you expand on the political ethos into Jewish religious life. Some Jew- in the United States. The reasons causing the growing divide be- ish fundamentalists are passionately for the that unless the Jews are in their tween Muslim and Western societies? state of Israel and see it as sacred and holy; land, fulfilling the ancient , Christ KA: In the Middle East, modernization has involvement in Israeli politics is a sacred cannot return in glory in the Second Com- been impeded by the Arab/Israeli conflict, act of tikkun, restoration of the world; mak- ing. So they are passionate Zionists, but which has become symbolic to Christian, ing a settlement in the occupied territories this ideology is also anti-Semitic, because Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists and is is also an act of tikkun and some believe in the Last Days they believe that the Anti- the bleeding heart of the problem. Unless a that it will hasten the coming of the Mes- christ will massacre the Jews in the Holy just political solution can be found that is siah. But the ultra-Orthodox Jews are often Land if they do not accept baptism. satisfactory to everybody¸ there is no hope against the state of Israel: some see it as an of peace. There is also the problem of oil, evil abomination (Jews are supposed to wait SI: Do you see the West as having a respons- which has made some of these countries for the to restore a religious state ibility for what is happening in Palestine? 20 SHARE INTERNATIONAL VOL. 26, NO. 7 — SEPTEMBER 2007 KA: Western people have a responsibility also revere the prophets Abraham, David, So why aren’t religious people compas- for everybody who is suffering in the world. Noah, Moses and , whom the Mus- sionate? What does that say about them? We are among the richest and most power- lims regard as a prophet, as in fact do many is not a popular virtue. Many ful countries and cannot morally or reli- of the New Testament writers. Luke’s gos- religious people prefer to be right rather giously stand by and witness poverty, dis- pel calls Jesus a prophet from start to fin- than compassionate. They don’t want to possession or injustice, whether that is hap- ish; the idea that Jesus was divine was a give up their egos. They want religion to pening in Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya or later development, often misunderstood by give them a little mild uplift once a week so Africa. But Western people have a particu- Christians. that they can return to their ordinary selfish lar responsibility for the Arab-Israeli situ- Unfortunately, however, religious peo- lives, unscathed by the demands of their ation. In the Balfour Declaration (1917), Brit- ple like to see themselves as having a mo- tradition. Religion is hard work; not many ain approved of a Jewish homeland in Pal- nopoly of truth; they see that they alone people do it well. But are secularists any estine and ignored the aspirations and plight are the one true faith. But this is egotism better? Many secularists would subscribe of the native Palestinians. And today the and has nothing to do with true religion, to the compassionate ideal but are just as United States supports Israel economically which is about the abandonment of the ego. selfish as religious people. The failure of and politically and also tends to ignore the religious people to be compassionate plight of the Palestinians. This is danger- SI: Quite often it seems that religious doesn’t tell us something about religion but ous, because the Palestinians are not going people are not necessarily more compas- about human nature. Religion is a method: to go away and unless a solution is found sionate, tolerant, peaceful or more spiritual you have to put it into practice to discover that promises security to the Israelis and than others. What does that say about the its truth. Not many people do, unfortunately. gives political independence and security purpose of religion? to the dispossessed Palestinians, there is KA: The world religions all insist that the Islam and the West no hope for world peace. one, single test of any type of faith is that it SI: Discussing Western ideas of justice and must show practical compassion. They have democracy in the Middle East, British for- SI: You have also stressed the importance nearly all developed a version of the Golden eign correspondent of The Independent of a “triple vision” – the ability to view the Rule: “Do not do to others what you would newspaper, Robert Fisk, put it like this: “We conflict from the perspective of the Islamic, not have done to you.” This demands that keep on saying that Arabs ... would like Jewish and Christian communities. Could we look into our own hearts, discover what some of our shiny, brittle democracy, that you explain this view? it is that gives us pain and then refuse, un- they’d like freedom from the secret police KA: The three religions of Abraham – der any circumstances, to inflict that pain and freedom from the dictators – who we Judaism, Christianity and Islam – can and on anybody else. Compassion demands that largely put there. But they would also like should be viewed as one religious tradition we “feel with” the other; that we dethrone freedom from us. And they want justice, that went in three different directions. I have ourselves from the centre of our world and which is sometimes more important than always tried to see them in this way; none is put another there. This is the bedrock mess- ‘democracy’”. superior to any of the others. Each has its age of the Qur’an, and the New Testament: Does the West need to realize that Muslims own particular genius; each its own particu- (“I can have faith that moves mountains,” can run a modern state, but it is perhaps lar flaws. Jews, Christians and Muslims says St Paul, “but if I lack charity it profits not the kind of democracy we want to see? the same God and share the same me nothing.”). Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary KA: As Muslim intellectuals made clear, Is- moral values. In the book , of Jesus, defined the as the lam is quite compatible with democracy but, I tried to show that throughout their his- essence of Judaism; everything else, he said, unfortunately, democracy has acquired a bad tory, Jews, Christians and Muslims have was “commentary.” We have exactly the name in many Muslim countries. The West asked the same kind of questions about God same teaching in Confucianism, Daoism, says: we believe in freedom and democracy, and have come up with remarkably similar Hinduism and Buddhism. I have tried to but you have to be ruled by dictators like solutions – so that there are Jewish and show this in one of my most recent books, the shahs or Saddam Hussein. There are Muslim versions of the incarnation, for ex- The Great Transformation. double standards. Robert Fisk is right; when ample, and very similar notions of proph- The traditions all insist that it is not I was in Pakistan recently and quoted Mr ecy. In The Battle for God, I tried to show enough simply to show compassion to your Bush: “They hate our freedom!”, the whole how similar the fundamentalist movements own group. You must have what the Chi- audience roared with laughter. are in all three . nese call jian ai, concern for everybody. Or Democracy cannot be imposed by arm- Jews, however, have always found it dif- as Jewish law puts it: “Honour the stranger.” ies and tanks. The modern spirit has two ficult to accept the later faiths of Christian- “Love your enemies,” said Jesus. If you essential ingredients; if these are not ity and Islam; Christianity has always had simply love your own kind, this is purely present, no matter how many fighter jets, an uneasy relationship with Judaism, the self-interest and a form of group egotism. computers or sky scrapers you have, your parent faith, and has seen Islam as a blas- The traditions also insist that it is the daily, country is not really “modern”. The first of phemous imitation of revelation. The Qur’an, hourly practice of compassion – not the these is independence. The modernization however, has a positive view of both adoption of the correct “beliefs” or the cor- of Europe from 16th to the 20th centuries Judaism and Christianity and constantly rect sexuality – that will bring us into the was punctuated by declarations of inde- asserts that did not come to presence of what is called God, Nirvana, pendence on all fronts: religious, intellec- cancel out the faiths of “the People of the Brahman or the Dao. Religion is thus insep- tual, political, economic. People demanded Book”. You cannot be a Muslim unless you arable from altruism. freedom to think, invent, and create as they SHARE INTERNATIONAL 21 VOL. 26, NO. 7 — SEPTEMBER 2007 chose. The second quality is innovation – cal issues are resolved. There is great com- function freely. Muslims became disen- as we modernized in the West. We are al- mon ground between the ideals of Islam and chanted with the West as a result of West- ways creating something new; there is a the modern Western ideal and many Mus- ern foreign policy: Suez, Israel/Palestine, dynamism and excitement to the process. lims have long realized this. At the begin- Western support of corrupt regimes, etc. But in the Muslim world, modernity did ning of the 20th century, almost every single not come with independence but with colo- Muslim intellectual was in love with the SI: What is needed from a very practical nial subjugation. And Muslims are not free West and wanted their countries to look just point of view to bridge the gap? What because Western powers often control their like Britain and France. Some even said that would you advise our leaders, politicians politics behind the scenes to secure the oil the West was more “Islamic” than the and governments? supply or other resources. Instead of inde- unmodernized Muslim countries, because KA: A revised foreign policy: A solution in pendence there has been an unhealthy de- in their modern economies they were able Israel/Palestine that gives security to the pendence and loss of freedom. Unless to come closer to the essential teaching of Israelis and justice and autonomy to the people feel free, any “democracy” is going the Qur’an, which preaches the importance Palestinians; no more support of corrupt, to be superficial and flawed. of social justice and equity. At this time, dictatorial regimes; a just solution to the We also know in our own lives that it is Muslims saw the modern, democratic West unfolding horror in Iraq, which has been a difficult – even impossible – to be creative as congenial. In 1906, Muslim clerics cam- ‘wonderful’ help to groups like Al-Qaeda, when we feel under attack. Muslims often paigned alongside secularist intellectuals in playing right into their hands. No more situ- feel on the defensive and that makes it diffi- Iran for representational government and ations like Abu Graib or Guantanamo Bay; cult to modernize and democratize creatively constitutional rule. When they achieved money poured into Afghanistan and Pales- – especially when there are troops, tanks their goal, the grand Ayatollah said that the tine; a solution to Kashmir. No more short- and occupying forces on the streets. new constitution was the next best thing to term solutions for cheap oil. In Iraq and in the coming of the Shiite Messiah, because Lebanon last summer we saw that our big SI: Can the Western world and Islam still it would limit the tyranny of the Shah and armies are no longer viable against guer- come together? Do you see any common that was a project worthy of every Muslim. rilla and terror attacks. Diplomacy is es- ground between them? Unfortunately, the British then discovered sential. KA: This will only be possible if the politi- oil in Iran and never let the new parliament

• • 22 SHARE INTERNATIONAL VOL. 26, NO. 7 — SEPTEMBER 2007