South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project the University of South Carolina

South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project The University of South Carolina Interview with The Honorable Matthew J. Perry, Jr. University Libraries University of South Carolina South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project Matthew Perry Interview, Page 2 Interviewer: Dr. Robert J. Moore Robert J. “Bob” Moore is a native of West Tennessee, attended Lambuth College, and received his Ph.D. from Boston University. He taught history at Columbia College in Columbia, SC for thirty-nine years. He was Chair of the Department of History and Political Science for twenty-three years and held the Charles Ezra Daniel Chair in History. Active in the civil rights movement in South Carolina, Dr. Moore became friends with Matthew and Hallie Perry in the early 1960s, and that friendship continued until Judge Perry’s death. He became interested in pursuing research on Judge Perry’s life and service in the 1990s. He delivered a paper on Judge Perry at the Southern Historical Association and wrote the two biographical chapters in the 2004 book, Matthew J. Perry, The Man, His Times, and His Legacy, published by the University of South Carolina Press. Dr. Moore is now [2011] engaged in writing a textbook on South Carolina History for eighth-graders for Clairmont Press in Atlanta. Dates: Dec. 14, 1995 (tape 1), Dec. 27, 1995 (tapes 2-3), Jan. 3, 1996 (tapes 4-5), Jan. 19, 1996 (tapes 6-7), Jan. 23, 1996 (tapes 8-9), Jan. 30, 1996 (tapes 10-11) and Feb. 6, 1996 (tapes 12-13) Location: Judge Perry’s Office, Columbia, SC Transcriber: Larry Grubbs Synopsis: Columbia native Matthew Perry (1921-2011) chiefly discusses his life, legal career, and involvement in the civil rights movement in South Carolina. Perry graduated from Booker T. Washington High School. He served in the U.S. Army from 1943 to 1946 and saw duty in England, France, Belgium and Germany. He received both his B.S. degree, 1948, and law degree, 1951, from South Carolina State College. In 1951, he associated with the law firm of Jenkins, Perry and Pride and soon became one of the key NAACP attorneys promoting civil rights in South Carolina. In 1974, Perry became the first black in the twentieth century to win the Democratic nomination for a seat in Congress, but failed to unseat incumbent Congressman Floyd Spence. In 1975, Senator Strom Thurmond nominated Perry to the U.S. Court of Military Appeals, to which he was appointed the following year. In 1979, Senator Fritz Hollings nominated Perry to serve on the U.S. District Court. He was appointed to that court by President Jimmy Carter. South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project Matthew Perry Interview, Page 3 [Session 1, December 14, 1995, Tape 1 begins] Moore: Judge, I'd like to start with you just telling me something about your early life, your family, your memories of early childhood. Perry: I was born Matthew James Perry, Jr. on August third, 1921. My father was a tailor by trade. He was a World War I veteran. During my early years, he was hospitalized at the veterans' hospital in Tuskegee, Alabama. Later, he died, when I was twelve years old. I was the oldest of three children. My mother brought me, my sister, and brother to the home of her father and stepmother. From about age twelve, or shortly before that, I lived in the home of my maternal grandfather, along with my mother, my brother, and sister, until I went away to college. South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project Matthew Perry Interview, Page 4 Moore: And where was that house located? Perry: On Washington Street. Twenty-two-sixteen Washington Street here in Columbia, South Carolina. My early childhood was in that setting. My mother was a woman who wanted the very best for us. She required that we go to school, and that we develop good manners, good living habits. My grandfather, in whose home we lived, was a strict disciplinarian who was not a well-educated man at all, but who required the young people around him to conform to the strict standards that he had developed. He was a Baptist. He went to church regularly. In fact, he was a church deacon. He required that we go to church. Sundays were spent, almost the entire day, in church, from Sunday School, to the regular church service, to a later afternoon involvement in the church, which as I recall was the BYPU (Baptist Young People's Union), or something of that sort. [laughter] He would stay there for the Sunday evening service, and we had to stay there, too. We spent all day Sunday at church. Moore: [And] Wednesday evening prayer service? Perry: Oh, yes, absolutely. My grandfather worked as a brakeman on the Southern Railway Company. We kids had chores to perform around the house. I had to do the yard work. I had to help chop the wood, bring in the firewood and coal. We didn't have central heat back at that time. The house was heated by wood and coal. When there was housecleaning, such as scrubbing the kitchen floor [or] the bathroom floor, I was designated to do those chores. My sister did the dishes, and I would have to help sometimes by wiping the dishes, and by doing other chores within the house. I began at an early age working at the school, and did so throughout my school life. There was no time for just loitering. Let me also point out this about living in the home of my grandfather. He was a strict disciplinarian who condemned the ways of the world, you might say. He abhorred smoking, drinking, dancing, all of the things that young people might be attracted to. And you had to be in the house by sundown. As I grew older and became a teenager, I was given some leeway. I could go out as long as it was to the school or to someplace that everybody knew about, somebody's house, the school, or to the church, of course. South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project Matthew Perry Interview, Page 5 Moore: Did you have any early memories of discrimination, or awareness of segregation? Perry: Yes. At an early point in life, as we moved from the surroundings of our own home and went out into the broader community, you came to realize that there were places where, if you were black, you were not allowed to go. There were separate water fountains and separate restrooms. In the case of movie theaters, there was segregated seating, with the blacks having to go into the upstairs. [laughter] On buses, you had to position yourself in the back. They would permit you to come in the front door to pay your fare. You would leave out the front door, walk around, and enter the rear door. Moore: You pay your fare up front, and then walk around and enter the rear door? Perry: That's right. Or sometimes, if there weren't many white people up front, you could walk through the center aisle towards the rear. So there were all kinds of signs that I became aware of during an early point. Moore: Was part of this etiquette that your mother taught you and your grandfather insisted on? Segregation etiquette, how to not offend white people? Perry: Yes. Now I can't directly attribute it to my grandfather or to my mother, but let's put it this way. They knew the rules and they conformed. I guess by the example that they conveyed by their conduct, I'd go through the back door also without questioning it, until over the years, as I became more educated and more inquisitive, I began to wonder why these practices existed. Moore: And it was then you got right uppity? Perry: Yes. [laughter] Moore: In your teen years, it was the middle of the Depression, right? South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project Matthew Perry Interview, Page 6 Perry: Yes. Moore: I wonder what memories you have of that. You said you had an after-school job. Were times hard? Your grandfather kept his job at the Southern Railway Company, so he was better off than most. Perry: Yes. My grandfather's employment was steady. As a brakeman on the railroad, he was constantly employed, but it was not a substantial wage that he earned. It was a living wage. He had a modest home and he was very careful. He kept it up, he saw to it that the lawn was kept up, and that the house was in good repair. He added to it as the family needs dictated. He always kept an automobile, which I was permitted to wash and keep clean, and which I would perhaps sneak around to drive around the block. [laughter] Moore: You must have been among some of the best-off black families in Columbia then, other than schoolteachers and the families of morticians. Perry: It's difficult to compare our status and the quality of our lives with others, but there were any number of blacks who enjoyed fairly decent standards of living. Moore: Better than yours? Perry: Oh, yes. Moore: Do you have any memories of Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal, and whether that impacted on the community? Perry: I do. Let's see. President Roosevelt was elected when, in 1932? Moore: '32. South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project Matthew Perry Interview, Page 7 Perry: I would have then been eleven years of age, and so I do indeed remember his election.

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