Public Disclosure Authorized Public Disclosure Authorized Public Disclosure Authorized Public Disclosure Authorized ah 1 AH THE WORLD BANK
FROM CONSENSUS TO ACTION: A SEMINAR ON THE INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT GOALS
Monday, March 19, 2001 8:55 a.m.
Room MC13-121 1818 H Street, N.W. Washington, D.C.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 2 CON TEN T S
OPENING SESSION: 5 Chair: Jo Ritzen, Vice President, Development Policy, World Bank Introductions & Purpose of Seminar Program Jo Ritzen 5 Opening Address via Videotape: Nick Stern, Senior Vice President and Chief Economist, World Bank 9 Opening Address: "The International Development Goals and the Bank's Action Plan" Sven Sandstrom Managing Director, World Bank 15 Opening Address: "Working Together to Reach the International Development Goals" Mark Malloch Brown Administrator, UNDP 23 SESSION I: The Role of the International Development Goals 48 Chair: Sven Sandstrom Speakers:
"The UN Strategy to Realize the Goals" Ian Kinniburgh Director, Division for Development Policy Analysis, Department of Economic and Social Affairs United Nations 51 "Incorporating the IDGs into Uganda's Development Strategy" Emmanuel Tumusimme-Mutebile Governor, Bank of Uganda 66
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 3 (Continued) "Bilateral Cooperation for Promoting IDGs" Brian Hammond and Paul Isenman OED Development Cooperation Directorate 82 Michael Schultz Chief Social Development Adviser Department for International Development United Kingdom 94 Discussants Cyril Enweze Vice President African Development Bank 108 Mats Karlsson Vice President for External Affairs World Bank 120 Open Discussion 129 LUNCH BREAK
SESSION II: Sharing Experience & Building Knowledge 164 Introduction to Session II Break-Out Groups Shantayanan Devarajan Chief Economist, Human Development Network World Bank 164 Parallel Sessions [Not Transcribed]
I SESSION III: Reporting Back on Sharing Experience and Building Knowledge 170 Chair: Eduardo Doryan Vice President, Human Development Network World Bank Reports: Karen Mason (Poverty) 171 Alex Preker (Education and Health) 173 Stephen Browne (Environmental Sustainability) 179
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 4 (Continued) Discussants: Rachid Benmokhtar President, Al Akhawayn University Morocco 184 Sanjeev Gupta Chief, Expenditure Policy Division, Fiscal Affairs Department International Monetary Fund 190 Open Discussion 195
Adjournment 239
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 9th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2902 (202) 546-6666 ah 5
MR. RITZEN: Friends and colleagues, I
want to welcome you to this seminar. It is really
a privilege for me to welcome you to this seminar
on International Development Goals.
We are very pleased to see that despite a
very short period of preparation, so many of you
thought that it was worth your while to come and
join us. I think that that shows a very keen
interest. Many of you have actually made a long
trip to be here, and I am sure you have done that
with the notion that this seminar will contribute
to further our efforts in international
development.
Let me say that we made a great effort to
make sure that we had a substantial presence here
of people from developing countries. And we are particularly gratified to see so many and
particularly so many outstanding persons from
developing countries. Let me explain that for a
second.
We are here to discuss how development
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 6 partners can more effectively collaborate on the
International Development Goals, using the
International Development Goals as a platform for
furthering development.
And of course, the first and foremost
partners in development cooperation are the
developing countries themselves. They should play
the dominant role in the International Development
Goals. They know, of course, that the
international community has embraced those goals
and also that that gives rise to requiring to
deliver on commitments, and they also know that the
international agencies, donors, are willing to
deliver on that commitment.
We look forward very much to this seminar
to hear the voice of the developing countries, to
learn better what their understanding is of the
International Development Goals and also how they
see that the partners could more effectively work
together.
That is one part of the seminar--working
together.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 7 The second part, very much related, is
focused on the exchange of knowledge, the exchange
of experience, what works and also what does not
work in getting to the goals, how intermediate
targets can be set which are both ambitious and at
the same time feasible and realistic and which at
the same time stretch the room for maneuver of
countries to reach the best results for that
population, how to address problems of monitoring
and data availability, what is the role of
benchmarking and how it can help the leadership in
countries and their efforts, where the critical
research issues lie. Those are also questions to
be addressed.
But first and foremost, this seminar is
understanding, understanding and action,
understanding for action, understanding of the
place of International Development Goals in
development, understanding the roles of the
different partners and the way these roles can
reinforce each other, but understanding action,
action to create a better world for all using the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 8 International Development Goals as a platform.
In this opening session, we had planned
two speakers. They were Nick Stern, Chief
Economist of the World Bank, and Mark Malloch
Brown, the Administrator of the Development Program
of the United Nations.
Nick Stern invited you but had an urgent
call from Turkey to assist in the search for ways
out of the present crisis. In agreement with the
President of the World Bank and the Managing
Directors, he decided that that call had to be
answered even though it meant that he could not be
at the party of which he is actually the host. He
will, however, be with us through a video address.
I am particularly delighted that Mr. Sven
Sandstrom, the most senior of the Managing
Directors of the World Bank, was willing to take
his place and agreed to deliver the opening address
from the World Bank side.
So the order of this opening session will
bel first, a 5-minute video from Mr. Stern--we know
that it is exactly 5 minutes, because it was taped;
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 9 the opening address of Mr. Sandstrom, and then the
opening address of Mr. Mark Malloch Brown.
Can we have the video, please?
MR. STERN: Good morning.
My name is Nick Stern, and I'd like to
welcome you all to Washington. It is very good of
you to accept our invitation at such short notice.
I have to apologize to you for being
unable to be with you today because I was called
away at much shorter notice to Turkey where, as you
know, they are in the middle of some quite severe
financial difficulties, and I was summoned there
at, really, a couple of days' notice, and I am very
sad that I am not able to be with you because this
is such an important gathering.
This is a very timely gathering, because
there is now unprecedented agreement on the
International Development Goals, but also, I think
we have a much better understanding of what is
involved in getting there. I do think that we have
deepened our knowledge of what development means
over the last 5 or 10 years and on the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 10 effectiveness of development action.
This group also builds on actions that we
have taken together and discussions that we have
had together in the past. A year ago, many of the
organizations represented today were here together
to discuss these types of issues, and we put
together a publication, "The Better World for All."
At the Millennium Summit in the autumn of
last year, we found again tremendous agreement
amongst a very wide group of countries, around 150
or so, which pledged themselves to these
International Development Goals. So we are
building on good foundations of international
agreement and good discussions that we have been
having with all of you, that we have b~en having
together, over the last year or so.
For the Bank, these Development Goals are
basic. They are now part of the Bank's strategy
which we have been agreeing with our Board over the
last 2 or 3 months. They are build into our
detailed Country Assistance Strategies and our
Poverty Reduction Strategy Papers which are put
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 11 together working very closely with our countries
themselves. Indeed, as many of you know, on the
Poverty Reduction Strategies, it is the countries
themselves that are in the lead.
But we don't interpret these Goals in a
mechanical way. Of course, it matters to move
people from 50 cents to 75 cents a daYi that is
even more important than the movement across one
dollar a day. We know that achieving education
goals involves more than resources on education.
It involves community action; it often involves
rural roads; it involves nutrition programs. There
are all kinds of things that go into achieving any
one of these Goals, so we have to have a broad
view, and we cannot be mechanical about them.
But they are Goals which give us the
advantage of clarity, they give us the advantage of
commitment, and they also tell us very clearly that
development is multidimensional. We must not
simply look at the income dimension, important
though of course that is. We have to have this
broader view.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 12 So for many reasons, these International
Development Goals are of great value to the
development community going forward.
I think we should see them as a contract
amongst ourselves--that we have agreed to these
Goals, and now we have to try to understand in a
more deep way--I think we have some understanding
already, but we have to deepen that understanding
in order to see what kinds of actions we need to
take together.
And it is clear that we do have to work
together, and one of the reasons for having this
meeting is to discuss amongst ourselves how we can
better align our actions to achieve these Goals.
They are achievable--not in every part of the
world, but they are achievable for the world as a
whole, and it will need real commitment and working
together to make it happen. It will need policies
from developing countries, it will need policies
from developed countries, and it will need
resources from developed countries. Our task is to
try to understand what is involved and how we can
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 13 work together to get real movement forward and to
make this happen, to turn these targets into
reality.
So as I understand it, the purpose of this
meeting is to work together, all of us, from
wherever we come, but particularly, of course,
looking to the community from the developing
countries to help us all understand, and it is for
them--it is their countrYi it is for them to take
the lead in many ways in this process. So we are
particularly happy that there is such a good
community from developing countries here today.
So we are working together, then, in this
seminar to do three things, I think. First is to
understand the meaning of the International
Development Goals in the development process in a
very practical way.
The second is to understand what actions
are necessary from the whole development community,
including the developed countries particularly, but
the whole development community. Actions in the
developing countries are centrali we have to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 14 understand the role of international institutions
also.
So let's understand what actions are
necessary and finally, how we can work together to
really turn these Goals into reality.
So thank you again for coming. My deepest apologies for not being able to be with you today.
I wish I were; I am sure it is going to be a very
good and productive meeting.
Now let me pass it over to Sven Sandstrom,
our Managing Director, who will be speaking for the
Bank right now, and then, after Sven, we are very
happy to welcome Mark Malloch Brown from the UNDP.
So thank you again for coming and again,
my apologies for not being with you.
Good luck for what I'm sure will be a
splendid meeting.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much, Nick.
You still look very fresh, but I know this was
taped two days ago. We wish you good luck in your efforts.
Now may I invite Sven Sandstrom.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 15 MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much, and
good morning to all of you.
I join Nick and Jo in welcoming you to
Washington and to this seminar. The wide
representation of so many committed members of the
international community is very strong evidence of
the importance that all of us attach to the
International Development Goals.
It is very good to see so many friends and
colleagues here this morning. We want to learn
from you, and we want to share our knowledge with
you, and we should then go forward with a stronger
sense of dedication to the achievement of the
International Development Goals and with an
enhanced process of collaboration following these
two days.
In helping to set the scene for these two
days, I would like to say a few words about the
Goals, where the world stands today in achieving
them, and how we plan to work with all of our
partners to help countries reduce poverty as we
work toward the 2015 target date.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 16 The Goals relate not only to the world
population as of today but also the millions of
people who will be born between now and 2015.
Despite a slowing in the rate of population growth,
the world population will increase from 6 billion
to 7.1 billion over these years, and most of this
increase will occur in developing countries.
This population increase and the share of
children in it poses a major challenge in a world
characterized by deep poverty amid plenty. As of
1998, according to our estimates, about 1.2 billion
people lived in extreme poverty--that is, on less
than one dollar a day. In South Asia, 40 percent
of the population lives in extreme poverty. In
Sub-Saharan Africa, the share is even higher, as we
know, at 48 percent.
So the challenge ahead to reduce income
poverty is formidable.
Under the optimistic assumption that
reforms will continue and that the industrial
countries' growth will remain robust, the world
could meet the overall goal of halving the rate of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 17 extreme poverty by 2015. The number of people
living under one dollar a day could drop to 780
million from 1.2 billion today, and in percentage
terms, poverty could fall from 23.4 percent today
to 12.6 percent by 2015.
But this achievement is by no means a
certainty. For instance, much depends on progress
in China and in India. Any shortfall in either of
these countries will cause the world to miss the
poverty reduction targets.
Conversely, success in China and India may
mask slow develDpment progress in many other
countries. Quite a few countries, many in Africa,
are expected to miss the 2015 goal under even
optimistic scenarios.
Moreover, these optimistic projections use
the one dollar a day measure of poverty, which is a
poverty line representing extreme deprivation. If
we use the two dollar a day measure of poverty, the
goal will not be achieved on these same
assumptions.
Finally, as Nick mentioned earlier,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 18 poverty is not just about income; it is
multidimensional, as reflected by the Development
Goals. So even if we do meet the income poverty
goals, it is less likely that all the human
development goals in the areas of education,
health, and particularly gender equity will be met.
We have a major challenge ahead of us.
To achieve the Goals, we need the right
approach--attacking poverty in all its dimensions
and ultimately achieving them will require a major
concerted effort over the next decade.
Specifically, it will require comprehensive
strategies and approaches not limited to particular
projects or sectors; it will require persistence
over the long haul and attention to exdluded
countries and regions; it will require leadership
in both developing and industrialized countries and
country ownership; and it will require partnership
among all the key development players. Individual
efforts will have little hope of real success. We
must work together, which goes to the heart of
these two days.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 19 This means both developed and developing
countries must work together. The goals will not
be achieved unless they are seen as a compact with
mutual commitment from the North and the South,
from developed countries and from developing
countries.
The developed countries have an obligation
to provide opportunities for countries that have
shown themselves to be pursuing development and
poverty reduction. Specifically, developed
countries need to open up to imports from
developing countries. Developing countries must
have access to markets if exports are to serve as a
vehicle for development. Developed countries must
provide opportunities, both by ensuring that they
meet existing trade agreements and by committing to
open markets further.
Developed countries also need to increase
aDA levels. Experience and research show clearly
that development aid is effective at reducing
poverty when a country's policies and institutions
are reasonably good. We should recognize that aDA
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 20 is an investment in global economic growth,
stability, and peace. The current levels of ODA,
at 0.24 percent of GDP, fall far short of the goal
of 0.7 percent set by many countries. This
shortfall amounts to $100 billion per year, and
this difference is almost twice the level of
existing ODA at $56 billion per year.
Finally, developed countries must also
coordinate their development efforts better. A
lack of coordination among donors leads to
inconsistent requirements and overloads the
administrative capacity of developing countries.
Better coordination would help greatly with
capacity-building.
Having outlined some of the steps that
developed countries need to take~ let me also
emphasize that developing countries themselves
obviously also have major responsibilities. They
must take the lead in ensuring that their country
development strategies and reform programs are
responsive to the concerns, aspirations and
priorities of their people, particularly the poori
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 21 and they must develop reductions in poverty.
This requires respect for fundamental
freedom, strengthening representative institutions,
and ensuring broad-based participation in decisions
that affect people's well-being. We must regard
people in poverty as part of the solution, not part
of the problem.
Finally, at the international level, the
Bretton Woods institutions, the UN and its
specialized agencies, regional development banks,
our bilateral partners and others must work
together more effectively to ensure that we all
have the right policies, instruments, and
procedures to improve our services to developing
countries.
We must increase our cooperation and
pursue a common agenda. Interdependence and the
scale of the challenge require more focused and
coherent actions.
The International Development Goals
provide both an opportunity and a challenge.
Indeed, we may never have a better opportunity to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 22 bring the respective strengths of so many key
players to bear on the poverty that confronts the
world today.
If we want to make a significant
difference by 2015, we must all redouble our
efforts to do a better job, and I hope that these
two days will set the stage for the next level in
our cooperation.,
Thank you very much.
Back to you, Jo.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you so much, Sven, for
the way in which you very clearly laid out the
challenges ahead, particularly also the need for
strengthened cooperation. I think that that also
provides an excellent basis for the contribution of
Mark Malloch Brown, who has been working so hard on
strengthening coordination.
I particularly realize that on February
26th, when Mark Malloch Brown gave a speech in
London at the Child Poverty Conference, he was very
adamant that we should move toward what we call the
new global rating system for world poverty as a
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 23 basis for a permanent campaign to halve poverty by
the year 2015.
I am very much looking forward to the
contribution of Mark Malloch Brown at this opening
session.
MR. BROWN: Jo, Sven, colleagues and
friends, thank you.
Let me start with the obvious. We now
have an unprecedented global consensus around the
International Development Goals or the millennium
targets, testified to by the 160-plus world leaders
who came together to endorse the United Nations
Millennium Declaration last September. We now have
every right to put these targets at tee center of
development strategy.
And as the Declaration also clearly
states, we know the huge hurdle we have to surmount
to reach those targets, helping "ensure that
globalization becomes a positive force for all the
world's people." That means combining global and
national reforms to bring the poor from the margins
to the mainstream of the global economy.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 24 We can see the positive effects of this
new consensus already in events such as what Jo
just referred to, the recent conference in London
held by Gordon Brown and Clare Short on the Child
Poverty Targets that Jim Wolfensohn, Horst Koehler,
Carol Bellamy of UNICEF and I attended, that sought
to go to the next stage--defined responsibilities
and accountabilities.
After all, we are in a global environment
characterized by dramatic changes in economics,
politics, society,a nd technology, and these are
changing the face of development, and doing so at a
time when neither the UN development system or the
World Bank are what they were just a few short
years ago.
The Bank has dramatically pledged itself
to poverty reduction and moved beyond loans alone
to become a rich source of strategic country
frameworks, advice, and knowledge.
UNDP is also reforming itself into an
organization devoted to advocacy and advisory
services focused on six thematic priorities which I
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 25 will return to later.
In doing so, we have not only superseded
the old but long overtaken basis of UNDP/Bank
partnerships, our technical assistance helping to
pave the way for the Bank's loans, but have also
overcome the more recent phase of the relationship
when, in the 1980s and early 1990s, the civil war
over structural adjustment led to deep
institutional animosities.
Now we must take the next step. That does
not mean having to agree on everything to be able
to affirm resoundingly that we are on the same side
when it comes to the fight against poverty. It
does mean starting to answer the question that Jim
Wolfensohn set out in a recent letter to Kofi
Annan: How can we best work together to ensure
that the worthy aspirations embodied in the
Millennium Declaration Targets be matched by real
deeds at global and country level that bring real
benefits to the world's poor?
In London, the IMP and the World Bank
together committed to providing strong support to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 26 governments in developing program policies and
budgets that are pro-poor and pro-growth, fully
accountable, flexible, and fully country-owned.
And of course, the main vehicle for this is
increasingly the Poverty Reduction Strategy Papers.
At the same time, we committed both to
supporting that process--following rather than
leading, as Jim would describe it--while suggesting
that we together with our colleagues in the UN
Development Group help push forward, with the
support of the Bretton Woods institutions, in a new
effort on national and global benchmarking and
monitoring of the Millennium Targets, the subject
of today's seminar.
Let me start with the PRSPs before turning
to the targets, because I think they are linked.
We believe the Comprehensive Development Framework/
PRSP process will be the structure for synthesizing
poverty strategy and macroeconomic policy in the
overwhelming majority of the 70 or so poorest
countries. Donors support them, and despite
teething pains and the acknowledgement of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 27 limitations in the preparation process of some of
the Interim PRSPs, I am convinced that developing
countries support them, albeit with a broad and
legitimate aim of wanting to customize or
indigenize them over time as part of building
national ownership.
So let me unequivocally say that I do not
think that the UNDG's UN Development Assistance
Framework, UNDAF, is an alternative to the PRSP.
Rather, it is an important but limited business
instrument for ensuring the UN team's cohesion
behind the national development strategy which will
increasingly be expressed through the PRSP.
Do we have reservations? Of course we do.
Many members of our traditional constituencies in
developing countries and within civil society are
concerned about whether there will be enough space
for real poverty reduction. As Ravi Kanbur has
recently argued, there is, quote, "a seemingly
irreducible core of economic policy instruments
around which there are still profound
disagreements. These relate to both economic
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 28
policy distribution and poverty. 11
The good news, he also argues, is that
hopefully, the debates are no longer about motives,
analytical competence, or questioning of individual
or institutional commitment to poverty reduction;
rather, they are legitimate policy judgments
between a Group A, as he calls it, of finance types
from North and South -often, he rather unfairly
adds, trained in the Anglo-Saxon economic
tradition--and a Group B, of development
cooperation officials, civil society, the UN and others.
The two groups are obviously porous--I
don't need to be told that I move easily between
the two, for example--and there are many nuances on
both sides. But there is no doubt that these two
broad world views remain. So for our constituency,
will traditional macroeconomic stabilization goals
overpower the core objectives of tee Millennium
Targets? Will there be real consultation, or will
finance ministers end up keeping ministerial
colleagues let alone other stakeholders out? Will
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 29 the interests of women, children, and other
unempowered groups be protected?
Yet as a UN System, we have to decide--do
we throw stones from the outside or participate and
bring legitimate disagreements of our constituency
inside?
The answer is not to hold back. Rather,
we all have to pitch in and make this work. The
PRSPs are an important step forward which we, the
UN, must applaud and support. For us, that means
using our own traditional strengths to help vest
deep country ownership, such as our work in
providing support for civil society consultation,
and showing that the poverty reduction goals are
given maximum space is the macroeconomic envelope,
and our TA is used to help developing countries
develop real choices and, where appropriate, real
alternative views or analysis as they seek to map
out their own development strategies.
We have been already in UNDP working on
more than 20 PRSPs.
I think it is of real benefit to the Bank
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 30 and the IMF to make space, real partnership, for
the rest of us--bilaterals, NGOs, EU and UN--in
this country-driven process and acknowledge the
sectoral and microeconomic expertise and linkages
we are bringing to the table. And let me thank the
Bank and the Fund for all they have done to achieve
just that.
But let me also add a special plea to my
fellow funds and programs, such as UNICEF, UNFPA,
and WFP, which have accepted Jim's message that the
CDF and PRSP is a big tent with room for all, but
often find it difficult in practice to find the
entry flap. They must be included, ideally,
through government, in a way that ensures balance
between their sectoral contribution and the
overarching need for country ownership.
So in essence, I am acknowledging that the
dynamic and constructive agreements on policy
choices continue, but they must be contained within
a PRSP process, not allowed to degenerate into the
old wars. That requires clear acknowledgment by
others of the primary responsibilities of the Bank
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 31 and the Fund.
I have dwelled on this point both to
dispel lingering confusion about our commitment to
or our role in the PRSP process, but also because I
think it provides a context for the other front,
that which we are discussing today--holding
ourselves, governments and others to account for
meeting the targets.
Just as the Bank and Fund have clear
strengths in driving the PRSP process, I think the
UN System can build on the real momentum of the
Millennium Summit and Declaration and play an
invaluable role in helping develop and drive a new
campaign at global, national, and even community
level to monitor and benchmark poverty outcomes.
This will draw on the authority of the
Millennium Assembly, our convening power, the
normative role of the UN, our country presence, and
perhaps even more significantly, that we are not in
the front on the PRSPs--a division of
responsibility, in other words, that this city's
Founding Fathers might have approved of, but
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 32 perhaps unlike Washington, seeking real cross-
representation, each involved in the other's
enterprise as well as leading -in other words,
mutual responsibilities, but clear
accountabilities.
Finally, I think we have a clear track
record. UNDP's Global and National Human
Development Reports already do this kind of
benchmarking very well and have an enormous impact
in stimulating debate and policy and providing key
benchmarking tools for countries, states, and
municipalities allover the world. With local
partners, some 360 reports have now been issued in
120 countries. In Brazil, for example, President
Cardoso has targeted a $7.4 billion anti-poverty
program at the 14 states with the lowest human
development index. In Madhya Pradesh, India, the
chief Minister, E.J. Singh, recently described to
me how he governed by his human development index;
it is at the heart of his extraordinary success in
poverty reduction.
Now, as part of the Millennium
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6 6 6 6 ah 33 Declaration, the Secretary-General wants to go the
next step. The UN Development Group has begun a
process of preparing new country reports focused
specifically on the development targets, and UNDP
together with the UN Department of Economic and
Social Affairs, has been tasked with taking the
lead in this initiative.
We unveiled the first of these, on
Tanzania, in London two weeks ago. It was drawn up
with the support of the Government, by the UN
country Team, including in this case the IMF and
the World Bank. We expect that they will become
key inputs for a forthcoming new Annual Report by
the Secretary-General on meeting the Millennium
Targets, which was mandated by the General Assembly
last December.
But I hope it will have a broad public
resonance as well as a narrower utility for all of
us assessing our own performance in poverty
reduction. This is the moment to launch a
revolutionary effort to build up a new global
poverty rating system linked directly to the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 34 targets. It will help mobilize government and
civil society, business and labor, activists and
policymakers, and the public of North and South
alike, in a global race to halve poverty by 2015.
At a global level, the Secretary-General's
report will obviously build on liThe Better World
for All" document that we all participated in last
year, and I hope it will retain the same partners,
including the OECD, together with civil society and
strong Southern representation.
It must be both a sober, statistically
sound, annualized account of results and progress
at the country and global levels that will inform
government and international organizations and
seize the attention of policymakers bec~use of its
focus and credibility--a Standard and Poor's or
Moody's, if you like, of poverty rating.
Obviously, that is a huge, complex
methodological and statistical challenge--how do we
draw up the national data? How can we aggregate up
from, literally, the municipal level to the global
focus? How do we legitimately show movement over
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 35 the short time frame between annual reports?
These are all questions that I hope we
will be able to work together to answer
effectively, drawing in not just the support of
your excellent research here at the Bank, but also
key nongovernmental organizations, such as Social
Watch.
The next two days will offer, I hope, a
lot of the first answers to some of these issues.
So, verify, yesi but then, campaign. I
see these reports as the foundation for a movement
that builds a wide political constituency
encompassing development activists, broader civil
society, and other stakeholders, working in a way
that OXFAM or the Campaign Against Land Mines did
to build and sustain support across North and South
in an ongoing effort to maintain real momentum for
a sustained national and international focus on the
Millennium Targets.
To do that, it cannot exclusively be an
enterprise of the UN or the Bretton Woods; it must
become a global movement, owned firstly, like the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 36 PRSPs, by governments and countries themselves--in
this case, as Sven just said, a compact between
North and South covering not just the outcomes of
Southern performance but also Northern performance,
on aid, trade, support to Rand D regimes, and
investment.
So these indicators must travel well--at
one level, a tool that can inform key policy
instruments from the PRSP to national budgets to
social and political frameworksi a policymaker's
benchmark of effectiveness in poverty reduction.
At another, they must spark public
mobilization and political actions that will drive
tough choices around policies. These indicators
must be smart enough to inform development
decisions by all of our organizations about
strategies and performance while accessible enough
to form the basis of public campaigns against
poverty--an accountability framework for all of us.
So there you have it--an international
effort against poverty organized in significant
part around two instruments--a PRSP to secure
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 37 country-level coherence, and a national and global
monitoring system.
The Bank and UNDP have much to build on as
we move down these two tracks. The success of
initiatives like CGIAR or our work together in the
Water and Sanitation Program, that pioneered issues
of community involvement in gender and delivery of
water and sanitation services to the poor, or
successful balance of responsibilities and programs
that we share between our two institutions along
with UNEP and the Global Environment Facility. All
of my UN colleagues can point to similar successes
in their own relationships with the Bank.
Finally, a word about UNDP's own new,
tighter focus. Built around six sectoral
priorities together with our UN coordination role
and that of advocacy, it has made life a lot
simpler.
In our Bureau of Development Policy alone,
we have closed more than 700 projects and dropped
out of project sectors such as forestry,
agriculture, education, and health. Worldwide, we
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 38 are focusing on six key practice areas--democratic
governance t pro-poor policies , peace-building and
crisis prevention t sustainable energy and the
environment t information and communications
technologYt and the non-health dimensions of
HIV/AIDS. In none do we aspire to dominate the
sector. In each t we think we have particular
comparative advantages that allow us to develop
deep niche expertise. In alIt we work with
partners t and each represents the choice of our
program countries.
Take good governance t which has rightly
become the centerpiece of a new global development
agenda and was singled out in the Millennium
Declaration as a key vehicle to achieve" these
targets.
The UNDP governance broadly makes up half
our program work today and increasingly focuses on
the political side--areas like strengthening human
rights t bolstering parliaments and electoral
capacitYt public sector management t justice
systems t decentralization that brings institutions
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 39 closer to the people and empowers women.
Indeed, that is why we now style it our
democratic governance practice area. Just last
week, I announced a new UNDP center in Oslo that
will do very applied work on the links between
democratic institutions and poverty reduction,
conflict prevention and human rights. Let me
observe, as you at the Bank wrestle with the issue
of focus or "selectivity," as you call it, that it
is a liberating business, ballast out of the
balloon, particularly if focus is combined with
partnerships to cover the consequent gaps in
service.
In each of our priority areas, I see the
'promise of further partnerships with the Bank,
because while these comprise a small subset of your
priorities, you are nevertheless making a major
commitment in each of them. And I suspect this
moment is one when a broader partnership is
important for both of us, with donors and all of
our stakeholders. And I cannot think of a better
place to start than on these interlinked goals, the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 40 PRSPs and the Millennium Targets.
Thank you.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much for this
impressive opening speech, Mark.
I think this was excellent in terms of
itself but also in terms of the complementarity
with what Sven brought to the table, because in
many respects, it makes our work easier. It is, as you said, not focusing, I think, on the things
which divide us, but on where we have found
strength in working together--in your words,
finding the flap for the big tent in which we all
have a place.
You also mentioned the international
development targets, the Millennium Declaration
Development Goals study on Tanzania. We found that actually quite quickly, and we found it extremely
refreshing and very pertinent, so we would very
much like to add it to our documentation, so we
will spread it around.
Thanks to the way in which you presented
your speech, we have some time now for questions,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 41 and if you would be willing, I think we might have
two or three questions from the floor to have the
start of the debate.
Whom could I invite?
Yes, please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF FAO: Thank you for the opportunity.
MR. RITZEN: Please, could you introduce yourself?
REPRESENTATIVE OF FAO [Mr. Hjort] Yes. I am Howard Hjort with FAO.
I wanted to note that Mr. Stern made
reference to the unprecedented agreement on tee
Goals, and I noticed that Mark Malloch Brown has
spoken of the consensus on the International
Development Goals, but then went on to speak about
the Millennium Goals.
I am sure that everybody knows that there
is a fundamental and significant difference between
the Millennium Goals and the International
Development Goals.
My question is will the International
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 42 Development Goals be modified in the approaches
that are being used from the country level on up to
conform to the Millennium Goals.
As you might expect, my primary concern is
the omission in the International Development Goals
of the goal that was established by the heads of
state of all the governments that are represented
here today to halve the number of persons hungry in
the world by 2015. That goal is not in the
International Development Goals; it is in the
Millennium Goals, although it is a less aggressive
goal there--it is the proportion, as it is with
respect to poverty, instead of the number.
Thank you.
MR. RITZEN: Yes?
MR. BROWN: On that, my view is that the
International Development Goals were a step toward
a process which has now culminated with a unique
act of endorsement, which is the 160-plus world
leaders--not ministers, but world leaders--at the
Millennium Summit, and therefore, my view is that
it is a step back to return to a less universally,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 43 less high-level endorsed set of goals.
I also like the fact that they are
slightly wider--we think there are 10 as against
the 7 or so in the International Development
Targets. So I think both are steps forward. I
think that, frankly, both have some omissions, and
we may have to slip in a few extra ones. Some of
my colleagues are worried that neither pays quite
enough attention to some aspects of education. I
think more seriously, some of us are worried about
what Sven referred to, that North-South compact of
holding the North accountable to levels of
development assistance, et cetera, are not
explicitly in either set. I think we have to build
the political case to include them, bec~use
otherwise it is not balanced.
But certainly going to the Millennium
Targets and then trying to go even beyond then some
by referring to the broader Millennium Communique,
which does demand levels of higher global action on
imbalances in the world economy and therefore
provide the legitimacy for this slightly expansion
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 44 and balancing of the Goals--that strikes me as the
way to go.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you so much.
[Pause. ]
MR. RITZEN: No questions at this stage,
if I am correct--yes, please.
MR. BRADFORD: I am Colin Bradford, and I
am a professor of economics at American UniversitYi
but I was in the u.s. Government and in fact Chief
Economist of AID and our representative at the DAC
when we launched this whole effort to develop what
became the International Development Goals.
I would just like to rise on this point,
and I am sorry to intervene so soon in this
discussion, but I have thought a lot about this,
and I think the issue that the representative from
FAO has raised is a crucial one, because the
advantage of the International Development Goals as
articulated in this conference is that they are
few, they are concrete, they are monitorable, and
they are achievable, so they telegraph to the world
community in ways that I think we haven't fully
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 45 exploited yet and which Mark Malloch Brown I think
has articulated a very strong strategy for
mobilizing public opinion in parliaments. But I do
think that it would be unwise for us to dicker
about the differences between the Millennium Goals
and the IDGs, but rather think about them as one
and the same thing. If necessary, we could put
together a task force which would attempt to
reconcile the Goals, but I think that in fact they
are complementary, and that it doesn't take too
much intellectual work to figure out how to make
them concordant.
I would just like to put that forward,
because I think, Mark, that the politics of what
you articulated is something that I think was
behind why in the DAC we came up with this strategy
in the first place, and what we don't want to do is
to give on the outside, especially to parliaments,
any sense that we don't have our act pulled
together behind something very, very clear and
finite and specifically focused.
Thank you.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 46 MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much.
I am sure that this issue will be
discussed time and again during these meetings, and
I am particularly looking forward to the discussion
of the interlinkages between the different set of
goals as we will be doing today in the session on
"Sharing Experiences and Building Knowledge," but I
am also looking forward to the discussion tomorrow
from the countries' perspective, because in the
end, I think the countries will be the main focus
of all the work and in that respect will be
dominant. But that is just as a way of introducing
the answer from Mark Malloch Brown.
MR. BROWN: I think it is a very important
point. As a campaigner, I am very uneasy with the
idea of the list growing longer and returning to
some of the laundry lists of the past. So we have
got to keep it tight--and you are the expert--but I
think I am right in saying that until the
Millennium Summit, whereas all the other individual
targets had been endorsed at high-level conferences
such as Copenhagen or Copenhagen Plus-5, there was
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 47 a feeling that the 2015 halving of world poverty,
for example, lacked a clear, unequivocal, explicit
global endorsement.
So we got some more political weight
behind that one, and there are a couple which were
added--and there are people in the room much more
expert than I am on this--but they included things
like the incidence of HIV/AIDS and bringing that
down, where a set of goals which didn't include
such a clear, dramatic global challenge would, I
think, look incomplete to people.
But you are absolutely right--this has got
to be seen as just IDTs plus--it is absolutely the
son of the IDTs--not even the son of--it is a
modest expansion but a very controlled expansion,
and we must not let the process escape from us and
become something which is not monitorable or cannot
be the basis for global political mobilization.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much.
We are now in our time frame exactly on
time--very unusual, but I think very much in line
with our own monitoring of progress.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 48 I would very much like to thank the
speakers--Mark Malloch Brown as the person from the
I outside who I think has set the stage in a very
convincing way; Sven Sandstrom, for his opening
'' address; and of course also Nick Stern for his ' ! I contribution.· 'i I I would like very much to give them a big i' ~ ,:/ :I hand for their presentations·.
[Applause.]
MR. RITZEN: I would now like to turn to t the chairman of the next session, who is Sven Sandstrom.
MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much, Jo.
I guess this is where we get down to the real work. i I believe we have four presentations, five '
speakers, in this session, so let me introduce all
of them at 'this stage so you get the overview o£
what you are going to hear in the next hour or so--
~our or less, I hope.
The first presentation will be from Ian I , Kinniburgh. I am very pleased to welcome you. I I Many of you know him already from his work '/'',::,! 'I' ,I : ,,\, II,',: l'•i: 'I i ::; MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 .. (202) 546-6666 ah 49 with the UN, where he has been now for, I believe,
12 years. He is currently director of the UN's
Division for Development Policy Analysis in the
Department of Economic and Social Affairs. He will be speaking to us about the UN strategy to realize
the IDGs.
So, welcome to you, Ian.
The next presentation will be by Emmanuel
Tumusiime-Mutebile. Welcome to you.
Emmanuel was recently appointed Governor
of the Central Bank of Uganda, and before that, he
was Permanent Secretary for Finance and an advisor
to President Museveni. Emmanuel not only has a
developing country perspective but also an
international one; he has worked as a consultant
with a number of international organizations
including OECD, the IMF, and the Bank. His
presentation will focus on how to incorporate the
IDGs into Uganda's development strategy.
The third presentation, with two speakers,
will be from OECD and its Development Assistance
Committee. Brian Hammond, who is the Head of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 50 Reporting Systems in the Development Cooperation
Directorate of OECD, and Paul Isenman, who is Chief
of the Aid Policy Division in the DAC Secretariat,
will make the presentation.
Brian, in his time at OECD has, among
other things, focused on organizing and
coordinating work on indicators to track progress
toward the IDBs, and Paul is well-known to many of
us. He has spent quite a few years--20-plus--at
the Bank, and he has experience in nearly every
Region and many sectors and, maybe most
importantly, he led the team which prepared the
first World Development Report on Poverty, some 20
years ago or so.
We are very delighted that the two of them
are here today, and they will be discussing
bilateral cooperation for promoting the IDGs.
Our fourth presentation will be made by
Michael Schultz, who is Chief Social Development
Adviser in the British Department for International
Development. Much of his work at DFID has focused
on incorporating social policy and poverty analysis
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 6th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2602 (202) 546-6666 ah 51 into national development strategies, working
particularly with countries in Africa and Asia.
We are very happy to welcome you, Michael.
Michael will brief us on the UK white paper on the
International Development Goals and I hope also on
the Conference on the Child Poverty Initiative
which took place recently in London.
With that, most of my work is done, and I
will simply turn it over now to Ian Kinniburgh.
Ian, please.
MR. KINNIBURGH: Thank you very much
indeed, Mr. Sandstrom.
First of all, 1 et me apologize for Mr.
Nisin Desaya [phonetic], Under Secretary General
who, like Nick Stern, is traveling and "is unable to
be here today, but this should not be taken as any
underestimation of the importance of this meeting.
We at the UN attach particular importance to this
meeting because we do see it as the beginning of a
long road ahead of setting our program of work
collectively.
In that respect, I would like to thank
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 52 very much the organizers- the Bank, for organizing
this meeting on particularly short notice- and to
thank all the people behind the scenes in
particular, because we all know how difficult it is
to put on a meeting of this magnitude. But it is a
very important event, and we are grateful to be
here.
I feel that it is rather difficult, as Mr.
Ritzen said, to follow up on the very impressive
statement by Mark Malloch Brown, and again, since I
also come from the United Nations, but I also think
it is useful to follow up at the beginning with
some of the, if you like, background and context
from the UN perspective on the International
Development Goals.
As has been said in the last few minutes,
these were initially drawn up by the DAC, but they
were indeed rooted in the UN global conferences of
the 1990s. So of course, we at the UN have a very
heavy invested interest in these goals.
But I think it is also important to
realize--and this was touched upon--that these were
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 53 taken from a number of different conferences--the
Social Summit, the Population Conference, the
Women's Conference, and so on and so forth; they
were extracted from those--but each of those
conferences in its own right was, I would say, a
balanced package, and we therefore took from those
certain goals, but we also need to reference that
these conferences, each one individually was a
carefully crafted balance of commitments and
responsibilities. I think that that is something
that has to be underlined again.
I think it is important--and Mark
mentioned that we moved on to the Millennium
Summit. This was in fact the occasion when,
collectively, governments endorsed the so-called
Millennium Goals. And it is true that they are not
exactly the same, but I think one of tee things
that has to be underlined, and I think the driving
force behind the meeting here today, is tee
commitment that was made by governments
collectively, developed and developing countries,
at the Millennium Summit. I don't wish to blow the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 54
UN's trumpet too much, but I am going to do so a
little bit.
As everybody knows, this was a meeting of
heads of state and government, and as Mark said,
140 to 150 heads of state and government signed
onto the Millennium Declaration. I think the
political commitment here is very important, and it
is something that has to be sustained. A critical
part of this process for coming years will be to
sustain, if I might say, the political commitment
to these goals.
I would say that the Millennium Summit--I
will be perfectly frank- there was some
apprehension, I think Mark would agree, before the
event took place that it might not work very well.
We have to be perfectly honest about that. And I
don't think it is an exaggeration to say that ex
post, it worked very well. One reason for this was
precisely the personal commitment of the heads of
state and government. This was not quite just
because they all got up and made speeches in the
General Assembly Hall. But an important part of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 55 the process for those of you who do not know was a
series of roundtables among the heads of state--at
literally a table this size--there were four
sessions, and heads of state and governments met.
I think that that did go a very long way toward
generating a genuine sense of commitment,
collective commitment, and mutual understanding.
And I think the important word in the title, apart
from the focus on the Development Goals, is very
importantly the word about "consensus." I think
there was an unprecedented degree of consensus--
maybe not on the specific words, but this global
consensus on the development challenges ahead of
us.
One of the roles of the United Nations
servicing its governmental bodies, the UN
Secretariat, is to maintain this political
momentum, and at the same time, this is only going
to be achieved if the international community--and
that really means literally all of us--is
successful in moving forward on the Goals.
So I think the political commitment is
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 6th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2602 202 546-6666 ah 56 extremely important, and I would underline that.
And there is, of course, a balanced commitment
between both developed and developing countries,
and I will come back to that in a second, because
that is the first point that I want to underline.
Now I would just say that the basis for
the Millennium Assembly was a report put out by the
Secretary-General, and it is not in your binder,
but we do have copies available; it is a rather
thick document. This provides the background to
that Assembly, and it is summarized in this folder.
So this is the documentation that was provided and
gives the background to the various Millennium
Goals.
It is important to realize when we talk
about interrelationship, again, that the Millennium
Assembly addressed more than the development
aspect; it also addressed security issues, human
rights issues, and so on--the full United Nations
spectrum. And here again, the interrelationship
between these Development Goals and the other
objectives of the international community is very
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202 546-6666 ah 57 important. It is not something that we are going
to focus on here today, but I think it is important
as we all recognize the interrelationship between
development and the other aspects of the work of
the United Nations, in particular, peace and
security.
NOw, as has been mentioned, the specific
development targets within the Millennium
Declaration are not exactly the same as the
International Development Targets. As Mark has
said, I think to some extent there is inevitably
some evolution. There are some things which were
added, and I think he has referred to one, which is
the HIV/AIDS objective, which is something that has
evolved and come more to the forefront since the
initial list of International Development Targets
was drawn up. There is also the issue of Cities
Without Slums, reducing slum-dwellers, and so on.
I think this is something that has to be
discussed, but I agree that we should not spend--I
think it would not be fruitful to spend a lot of
time arguing about this. I think that what we have
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 58 to do, again, is to maintain this overall
consensus.
But it is also important--and I go back to
this--the compact in essence, as someone referred
to, between the developed and developing countries.
The developing countries, it is clear now, fully
appreciate that they have the primary
responsibility for their own development. This is
not a subject of discussion or debate anymore.
They realize this responsibility, they understand
this responsibility. They understand that they are
the people who have to mobilize the resources to
make this effort, and that the attainment of the
goals is going to be primarily their
responsibility.
I think this is accepted, and this is an
important foundation of the consensus. But it is
also argued- and this has to be underlined--that
for a variety of reasons--moral, ethical, and now
the rights-based approach, self-interest--developed
countries also have responsibilities. This is
recognized very clearly in the Millennium
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 59 Declaration in statements about globalization and
so on, but also in some of the other areas that
have been mentioned here already this morning in
terms of ODA, a critically important commitment
that has to be responded to by developed countries;
very clearly, the trade area; very clearly, the
debt area; very clearly, effectiveness and
coordination among donor countries.
So one of the important things here again
is the balance, the political commitment on both
sides that forged this consensus, and this is
something that has to be maintained.
Possibly the difficulty with the
Millennium Declaration, one might say--and the key
reason for this meeting today--is how we translate
all of these things into action. This involves
many people--everybody in this room--and one of the
key issues we are going to have to face is indeed
how we work together in order to achieve these
goals. Obviously, the UN will play its role in
continuing to bring people together to discuss how
we work together to attain these goals.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 60 The important thing, of course, as has
been said this morning, is that tee goals are
indeed, we believe, attainable, which is critically
important, in contrast to some of the earlier, we
would argue, wishful thinking. It is going to be
extremely difficult to achieve them--that, we all
also recognize. But it is also therefore
particularly important that we have this collective
approach.
Now, in terms of the UN strategy to
realize the goals, without being bureaucratic, this
of course to some extent depends on what we mean by
the UN. One important dimension of the term "the
UN" is of course the collection of member states,
the intergovernmental level. As I started out by
saying, and as we all know, the goals originated in
tee global conferences in intergovernmental
discussion, and these discussions are, of course,
in a way continuing, and there will be some very
important events where we can continue to refine
these goals in the years ahead.
The most immediate one is the Conference
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 61 on the Least-Developed Countries which is coming up
in May, and subsequently, there is next year a very
critical UN conference on which I have already
distributed a brochure outside, on the financing
for development process.
One of the difficulties of many of the
global conferences so far is that they have not
addressed the vexing question of the resources
necessary to implement them. One exception--
somebody opposite me here is nodding away a little
bit--there was a slight exception in the Population
Conference where there was an attempt to quantify
the resources which are necessary to implement that
conference. But by and large, for the other
conferences, there has never been any concrete
specification of the resources required either
domestically or internationally, international
transfers required to achieve the goals.
Next year, under the auspices of the
United Nations, it has been agreed that there will
be a conference on "Financing for Development," one
of the objectives of which will be to address the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 62 resource issues. This is one way in which the UN
will be carrying forward the objectives of
attaining the Millennium Declaration.
At the same time, it will also be
complemented by the other follow-up review
processes to the earlier global conferences. There
are a number of these. Fairly shortly, you will
have the follow-up to the Children's Summit. But
most importantly also, there will be the follow-up
to the Rio Environment Conference which, amazingly
enough, is now 9 years ago; and next year, there
will be a summit on the follow-up to the
Environment Conference that was held in Rio de
Janeiro. This again will be an opportunity to
advance, I would think, some discussio~ on a number
of the Development Goals, but particularly those
pertaining to the environment.
I would then go on to the UN--I am
skipping some of the things, as Mark has touched on
many of the things that we are addressing here.
Mark also mentioned that on the Secretariat side,
purely as a Secretariat responsibility, the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 63 secretary General has been called upon to produce
in the follow-up to the Declaration annual reports
on implementation. This clearly will be a
mechanism, as Mark has elaborated quite clearly,
for following up and in particular, I think,
pulling together and coordinating the various
organizations of the system.
Here, I think it is important that while
the UN Secretariat itself is not directly involved
in what we would call operational activities to
such a great extent, the UN itself is not involved
in providing assistance directly to developing
countries, but the UN System as a whole does
through the specialized agencies, as we all know,
and including notably through the funds and
programs. And the UN Secretariat has the
responsibility for pulling these various programs
of assistance together in a coordinated fashion
through the Administrative Committee on
Coordination. This has been called upon in the
follow-up resolution to prepare a road map for the
implementation of the Millennium Declaration.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546- ah 64 This road map will be prepared by the Secretary
General, and it will provide guidelines for all the
programs of the United Nations System, the
specialized agencies, funds and programs, and the
regional commissions, and will be presented to the
General Assembly next year.
Clearly, this meeting that we are having
today will provide a very important input into the
preparation of that road map, in particular getting
the views of the developing countries as to how
they see the role of the United Nations System in
following up on these various commitments.
Mr. Chairman, I have cut short some of the
things I was going to say precisely because Mark
Malloch Brown gave, as you said yourself, a very
impressive statement, but let me finish by quickly
summarizing and quoting from the Secretary General
himself, who says, and I quote: "Ultimately, it is
the leaders themselves who are the United Nations.
It lies within their power and therefore is their
responsibility to reach the goals that they have
defined. To them and to their constituents, the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 65 people of the world, I say only you can determine
whether the United Nations rises to tee challenge."
But at the same time the Secretary General
says: "I rededicate myself and my staff to
carrying out the mandate embodied in the
Declaration."
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, we are very
pleased to be here today in particular, I think, to
listen and learn from the developing countries that
are represented here on the role that they expect
the United Nations to play in assisting them--I
repeat, to assist them- in achieving these goals.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much, Ian,
for setting the context and for the road map to the
UN System. It is not easy for all of us to
understand how it works all the time, but you have
been very helpful.
Let me note before we proceed that we have
been asked to hold our comments and questions until
the end of these four presentations. We also have
a couple of discussants who will come in then to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 66 help lead off the discussion, and before that
starts, after the fourth presentation, we'll have a
coffee break.
Let me move on. We are doing reasonably
well on timing; we.'re going to try to stick to
about 15 minutes for each presentation.
We will move on now to Emmanuel, and we
will hear from him on the Ugandan experience with
the IDGs.
Emmanuel, please.
MR. TUMUSIIME-MUTEBILE: Thank you, Chair.
In recent years, two major changes have
taken place in development paradigms. First, there
is now a consensus that the overriding objective of
development should be poverty reduction. Moreover,
it is now generally agreed that poverty reduction
does not follow automatically from economic growth.
Whereas economic growth is a necessary condition,
it is not a sufficient condition for poverty
reduction. The nature and quality of that growth
is also crucial for poverty reduction.
Secondly, the concept of poverty must be
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 67 broadened beyond indicators of income and
expenditure to encompass a broad range of
indicators of the welfare of the poor, such as
access to education, improvements in health, gender
equality, and environmental protection.
I would like to stress that the experience
from the Ugandan Participatory Poverty Assessment
Project demonstrates that security of life,
security of livelihoods, and security of property
from violence and lawlessness is a crucial factor
in poverty reduction and welfare of the poor.
Let me now turn to the implications for
public policymaking in LDes of the International
Development Goals.
It is important to point out that
achieving the International Development Goals
involves a central role for the state in terms of
regulating markets and enforcement of contracts and
in terms of the government budget through the
provision of public goods in sector-sensitive
poverty reduction.
This role of the state requires market-
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 68 friendly economic policies and a stable macro
economy. I must emphasize that these two are a
prerequisite to raising household incomes and
reducing poverty.
Although there is a broad consensus at the
political level in LDCs that poverty eradication
should be a priority for public policy, it is far
more difficult to translate such a consensus into
policies which are optimal for poverty eradication.
This is partly because the economics
underlying optimal policies are often poorly
understood even among economists. Trade policy is
a good example of this. But also partly because
there may be influential political constituencies
which stand to lose from these optimum policies--
for example, the reallocation of public expenditure
from subsidizing loss-making parastatal enterprises
to funding social services will obviously be
opposed by those who would benefit from the
spending on parastatals.
In such circumstances, a clearly-
articulated and coherent poverty reduction strategy
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 69 in which is embedded all of the country's economic,
budgetary, and social policies within a consistent
and viable macroeconomic framework can play a
crucial role in promoting public and political
support and understanding for the policies which
are necessary for poverty eradication.
This is a very important lesson from my
experience in Uganda with the Poverty Eradication
Action Plan, or PEAP , which is Uganda's
comprehensive development framework and is also the
basis of our PRSP.
I think it is worth emphasizing this
point, that we in Uganda don't have a separate CDF
process, PRSP process, from a poverty reduction
strategy--no. We have one long-term framework for
poverty eradication from which all these other
processes fall.
I should also point out that when the PEAP
was first drawn up in 1997, it was after 2 years of
lengthy, broad-based consultations with all
stakeholders long before widespread stakeholder
participation became involved internationally--long
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 2 2 ah 70 before.
It is in this sense that it can
justifiably be claimed that the PEAP is
domestically owned. The PEAP was extensively
revised last year to set out a comprehensive
strategy for poverty eradication by the year 2017,
based on four pillars--first, creating a framework
for economic growth and transformation, and in this
framework, I must emphasize that macroeconomic
stability is supreme; second, to assure good
governance and securitYi third, to ensure that the
poor can directly increase their incomes; and
fourth, to increase the culture of life of the
poor.
The PEAP as a tool for shaping public
policy and building political support for the
policies which reduce growth has been particularly
important in three crucial aspects--a point that I
make in paragraph 2.5 in my paper, I say in two
aspects--but three crucial aspects. First, the
PEAP has identified the key sectors of the
government budget which can make the maximum
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 71 contribution to poverty reduction. Governments'
monetary priorities as identified by the PEAP
incorporate the main social objectives entailed in
the International Development Goals.
Secondly, the PEAP has brought into focus
the imperative of modernizing the smallholder food
crop agricultural culture, where the vast majority
of the poor earn their livelihoods, and has
stimulated the development by government of the
plan for modernizing agriculture, which focuses on
the need to enhance the natural resource-based
livelihoods of poor farmers.
Thirdly, the PEAP has forced the
government to confront the hard choices which must
be made between competing claims on government
resources and to evaluate these policies in terms
of their impact on poverty_
I think the challenge for policymakers is
to understand the interrelationships between all
the different aspects of poverty in order to devise
the optimal mix of policies which achieves the
maximum progress toward the stated objective, but
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 72 which is also feasible within the resources
realistically likely to be available to a country.
I must stress this point, because the
discussions in international fora since the CDP
tend to proceed as if the CDP has abolished hard
budget constraints. Nothing can be more than an
illusion.
Living within the resource envelope and
avoiding excessively expansionary fiscal policies
is especially important for the poor because the
poor have only a limited range of financial assets
and hence are more likely to hold their financial
assets in cash if they have any savings at all.
The poor therefore bear a disproportionate
burden of the inflation tax.
Living within the available resources, I
repeat, requires policymakers to make choices. Not
all choices that are thought to have a poverty-
reducing impact can be implemented in a given
budget year. Ideally, policymakers have a whole
list of proposals and policies to choose from,
drawing, for example, from conferences like this
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 73 one, but also based on domestic research and the
proceedings of other stakeholder consultations and
meetings.
But when necessitated to make choice
requires a full understanding of the
multidimensional nature of poverty and of all the
characteristics contributing to poverty and the
interrelationships, but always within hard budget
constraints.
As I said, it is a dangerous illusion to
say that the need to attain the International
Development Goals can somehow set aside the need to
prioritize in order to live within the resources
realistically likely to be available from both the
domestic sources as well as from external sources.
I would like to say something about the
importance of accurate data on the incidence and
nature of poverty for public policy formulation in
LDCs -not DCs, but LDCs.
Beginning in the early 1990s, the Uganda
Government has conducted six country-wide household
budget surveys designed to yield quantitative
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 74 information on household income and expenditures,
utilizing the evolving techniques of international
best practice in this field. These household
surveys have provided hard evidence that the
incidence of poverty fell in Uganda during the
1990s by 22 percentage points of the population.
This evidence has proved invaluable in
demonstrating to an often skeptical public and
politicians that sound economic policies combined
with budgetary policies which focus on delivering
basic social services to the poor can be effective
in reducing poverty.
Over the recent past, the proportion of
Ugandans in consumption poverty has fallen from 56
percent in 1992 to 44 percent in 1997, and a
further fall to 34 percent in 2000.
We believe that if the performance of the
last decade is sustained into the future, the goal
of poverty reduction in Uganda will be attained.
Without this hard quantitative evidence of the
impact of Uganda's economic and budgetary policies,
the political pressure for populist measures to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 75 reduce poverty, such as unsustainable increases in
public spending, such as the enforcement of minimum
wages, or protectionist trade policies which might
be intuitively appealing to the public and
politicians but will be very damaging to economic
growth and welfare in the long run would be very
much harder to resist.
There has been much progress toward
meeting the International Development Goals, but
let me select a few areas. Progress has been made
in areas of water and sanitation where the
provision of safe water supply and hygienic
sanitation facilities for all Ugandans is envisaged
by the year 2015.
The introduction of the policy of
universal primary education has increased in
enrollments threefold in primary schools since
1997, and the key issue now is to improve the
quality of education, supported by generous donor
aid flows and government funds saved from the HIPC
multilateral debt relief initiative.
Between 1994 and 1997, enrollments have
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (?I'l?) "4~-~hhh ah 76 been raised by a total of 64 percent, composed of
56 percent for males and 74 percent for females.
For the health sector, a National Health
Strategy Plan has been developed with the goal of
reducing the causes of ill health and premature
death. The Health Sector Strategic Plan is
designed around a basic minimum package which is
based on the predicted impact of cost-effective
interventions for the prevention and control of the
major causes of the burden of disease. I think
most people know that the biggest success in this
area has been the reported reduction in the
incidence of HIV infections and the virtual
eradication of guineaworm, polio and leprosy from
Uganda.
Environmental policy in Uganda also aims
at sustainable social and economic development,
which maintains or enhances environmental quality
and resources productivity on a long-term basis,
but meets the needs of the present generation
without compromising the ability of future
generations to meet their own needs.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6666 ah 77 The Government created a Poverty Action
Fund in 1998 to ring-fence the financial resources
which were saved as a result of debt relief under
the HIPC initiative. The Government voluntarily
earmarked all the savings from debt relief for
spending in the poverty Eradication Action plan
priority areas.
Since 1998, the Poverty Action Fund has
attracted additional donor support over and above
the debt relief, and this has enabled the
Government to increase tremendously the amount of
money going to the poverty reduction areas and
designed to attain the goals of the International
Development Targets as well as our own goals.
Finally, I would like to point out that
the Poverty Action Fund expenditures are an
integral part of the Government budget as envisaged
by the PEAP. The PEAP provides a framework for
sector-wide plans and investment programs which in
turn are translated into actual budgets in the
Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. The purpose of
the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework is the design
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 78 of all public expenditure by a clear analysis of
the links between inputs, outputs, and outcomes to
ensure consistency of sector expenditure levels
with overall resource constraints so as to ensure
macroeconomic stability and maximize the efficiency
of public expenditure in attaining predetermined
outcomes, including the IDGs.
Let me turn briefly to the question of how
IDGs can improve donor. There is now widespread,
strong empirical evidence that donor aid when
combined with sound economic policies can yield
important benefits for poverty reduction. The
donors have a vital role to play in supporting
efforts of LDCs--I am sorry the text says "DCs"--to
achieve the International Development doals,
notably in providing financial and technical
assistance to facilitate the expansion of the
public service provision in key poverty-reducing
sectors.
What do developing countries want from
their donor partners? Uganda has formulated a
comprehensive Poverty Reduction Strategy and an
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 79 associated Medium-Term Expenditure Framework which
is consistent with this Strategy which has achieved
the broad backing of its donor partners. Uganda
needs donor partner support for its budget,
currently around 50 percent of all the resources
for the budget--a situation which is not untypical
in Africa. But I would like to stress that if
donors are to maximize the value of the financial
support, they must take on board two key points.
First, donors should provide their aid in
the form of general budget support, leaving it to
the government to allocate these resources within
its budget in accordance with the broad budgetary
priorities agreed to by both government and donors.
Secondly, donors must try to provide
firmer long-term commitments of financial support
to the budget. Expanding access to public services
and improving the efficiency of the services
requires long-term budgetary planning, and hence a
degree of stability in the budget resource envelope
available to the government is required.
Donor funds are often the most volatile
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 80 element of the budget resource envelope, which can
create severe difficulties for budgetary management
and planning.
In order to improve the partnership
between donors and recipient governments, the
partners need to change their behavior. In the
case of Uganda, my paper mentions 10 areas in which
Uganda needs to change and 10 areas in which donors
need to change in order to strengthen partnerships
for achievement of the IDGs and indeed of our other
objectives for poverty eradication.
I have also given the organizers copies of
a paper which I wrote for a Stockholm Conference on
"Making Partnerships Work on the Ground," which
explains most of these requirements for change.
In conclusion, I believe that the
International Development Goals have an important
role to play in terms of strengthening the focus of
the budgetary process in developing countries to
give priority to poverty eradication policies. To
be effective, these budgetary policies must be
harnessed within a sound economic framework and
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 81 underscored by political commitment.
The IDGs also enable LDCs and their
development partners to articulate a consensus
around policy goals, and as LDCs commit themselves
to achieving these goals, this should give
development partners the confidence to enhance
their financial commitments to LDCs in the form of
budget support.
The eradication of poverty requires a
holistic approach that considers all constraints.
Thus, whereas the IDGs can be used to monitor both
progress toward the goal of poverty eradication,
policymakers remain with the challenge of devising
an optimal policy mix to work toward that goal
without neglecting other constraints, most
particularly the macroeconomic constraints.
I thank you.
MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much for
sharing this real-world experience from Uganda with
us.
Uganda, as we all know, has clearly been
among the leaders in pursuing the poverty focus,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 82 and we have a lot to learn from you.
I must also applaud you for the 10-10
compact you are proposing. We will take a close
look at that and see how we can follow up. I'm
sure that others later today and tomorrow will also
follow up and amplify on some of your experience.
I see Mr. Zongo from Burkina Faso here, and he has
gone through similar experiences.
Let us move on.
Brian and Paul. In which order would you like to proceed?
Brian first, please.
MR. HAMMOND: Thank you very much, Sven.
I must say it is a great privilege to be
here today representing the Development Assistance
Committee and to see that the International
Development Goals have really arrived.
I think that when this publication was
issued in May 1996, "Shaping the 21st Century, II we
were perhaps a little overly ambitious with the
title--but perhaps we weren't. Perhaps we really
here do have an opportunity to shape the 21st
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 83 century, and the partnerships that has led to the
Millennium Development Goals and that endorsement
of this compact set of goals which are deliberately
selective in order to fulfill that advocacy role, I
think is very important.
It is a shame Colin Bradford has left,
because I think that here, a number of the authors
of the report are in this room, but there are also
many friends with whom we have worked over the last
4 years or so on how to turn those goals into this
truly international partnership and come up with
the indicators and finally, "The Better World for
All" publication on monitoring progress.
I think it is important to remember that
in "Shaping the 21st Century" there were four main
pillars identified. One of them was the goals,
what have now become known as the International
Development Goals. For a while, they were known as
the DAC goals, and I am absolutely delighted that
our name has been removed from them; these are
indeed shared goals.
The second pillar was local ownership and
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 84 partnership, and that is absolutely important, and
again, I think we see the partnership in evidence
around this table. And we just heard from
Emmanuel, again, a friend from helping on the
indicator work, just how much local ownership is
vital and how much it has taken off in Uganda.
The third pillar is resources, and people
have already discussed the need for resources, in
particular aid, official development assistance
funding in support of the goals. And the story on
that, as you know, has been disappointing, and the
donors are very well aware of that. ODA has turned
up in the last 2 years, and we will know in about 2
or 3 months whether that increase has been at least
maintained in the year 2000.
The fourth pillar was policy coherence,
and Paul, among other things, will address OECD
work in that area.
Picking up on the partnership issue, one
of the papers that we put in your pack was
something we wrote a couple of years ago called "On
Common Ground" which was published in the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 85 Development Cooperation Report. What this showed
was the convergence of thinking around common
frameworks, around local ownership, around
partnership, around managing results. And I think
it is very important what Emmanuel has just said
about the fact that Uganda doesn't have a CDF,
doesn't have whatever--it has its PEAP, and that
then serves these mUltiple purposes, because I
think that that demonstrates local ownership par
excellence.
As I said, it was a privilege to work on
"The Better World for All" publication last year.
It is a delighted to see the graphics up there,
doing their job as an advocacy role. It was
deliberately pictorial and simple, to just get the
message across, and that is an important part of
keeping the momentum up into the future.
That was achieved through a unique and
critical partnership between mainly the four
actors--the United Nations System, many agencies
within that, with the Bretton Woods institutions,
the Fund and the Bank here in Washington, but also
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6 6 ah 86 with the bilateral donors working under the
Development Assistance Committee in the OECD. And
that is a critical partnership, because I think the
criticism of "The Better World for All," that it
did not reflect enough balance between development
outcomes in terms of the International Development
Goals and the responsibilities of the donor
community in delivering on resources, on trade
access, on more coherent policies, is an important
one, and that will be recognized in further work on
such publications, and I think it therefore very
important that the donor community recognize that
and are present to give that sort of balance sheet
where, perhaps on the left-hand side, we can see
what progress is toward the IDGs, and on the right
hand side, how those resources and market access is
coming together, are policies being more coherent,
are donors making progress on what Emmanuel was
just saying about the burden of donor procedures.
We have just set up a new task force to address the
burden of donor practices to see if those can
indeed be relieved.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 54 -6666 ah 87 Before I hand it over to Paul, perhaps just a word on the Millennium Goals and the IDGs.
I entirely agree with those who have said let us
not get too excited about the consistency between
those .two sets. I think it was very important that
the Millennium Assembly gave that formal
recognition of the goal 'of halving poverty or the
proportion of people in poverty by 2015. Poverty was recognized at Copenhagen but no timetable was
set for the eradication of poverty. I think that that recognition at the Millennium Assembly was
absolutely vital and that setting of what actually
is; of course, only an intermediate goal.
Copenhagen rightly set eradicating world poverty.
We have to recognize that we are in this,
therefore, for the long haul.
But others have also said the importance
of not ~hopping and changing--not, as Ian was
saying, having goals that were no more than
aspirations and really not achievable. I think that is pne of the unique features of the IDGs and
of most of the Millennium Goals, but I think that
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 88 importance that they are achievable, are
measurable, and are a compact advocacy tool is a
vital role and that we are in this for the long
term and are not going to move the goalposts,
because I think that that has been too much a
feature of past conference declarations.
So in conclusion, I certainly on behalf of
OECD/DAC look forward to working within this
partnership on the exciting agenda that Mark
Malloch Brown set out, of looking at how the PRSPs
are involved--and certainly, in the DAC, we are
working closely with the Bank and the Fund on the
donor role in countries on the PRSPs, but also on
the agenda of reporting on progress toward the IDGs
and the MDGs, and I think that [inaudible] report
is an excellent example of that, and that was
precisely the title it put in the top left-hand
corner; it just used the acronyms for both sets of
goals.
Thank you.
MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much,
Brian.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 89 Paul?
MR. ISENMAN: Thank you, Sven.
I am going to pick up where Brian left
off, and I have to start with an apology. If I
stumble occasionally as I go through this, it is
because my computer broke down on the flight
between Paris and Washington, and I am faced with
the impossible task of reading my own handwriting.
We are all deeply committed here to
poverty reduction, and in that connection, we are
deeply committed to the International Development
Goals. But if we all spoke very frankly, sometimes
we would say we are not quite sure exactly how they
relate to each other, and I would like to talk
about some aspects of that because I think it is
relevant to operationalizing the IDG concept.
With apologies to Professor Ragav Gaiha
[phonetic], I am going to use the title of his
January paper, "Are DAC Targets Useful? II as a
jumping-off place for some points on
operationalizing IDGs.
First, as Brian just pointed out, they are
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 90 certainly no longer DAC goals--they are very much
international development goals. Well, how come we
have this small set of goals to stand for something
so broad as poverty reduction?
I'd say the IDGs are a stretch subset and
symbol of a broader set of objectives related to
sustainable poverty reduction. Colin Bradford, one
of the parents indeed of this whole effort, has
also reminded us that they need to be few,
concrete, monitorable, and achievable.
The IDGs are achievable, but they clearly
are stretch objectives, and there is lots of
experience that stretch objectives can, if handled
right, help achieve stretch results.
Will each IDG be met globally and for each
region and country? Of course not. Sven already
pointed out that Africa is behind, for example, in
some areas.
Are there some, like gender equality and
education in 4 years, that are much more of a
stretch than others? Of course.
Now, I don't want to go too far here. I
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 91 think that research on the feasibility of achieving
different IDGs in different circumstances is quite
useful, including for helping to judge country
progress over time.
The IDGs are also clearly a subset of
anti poverty objectives. They are vital in
themselves and address key dimensions of poverty.
But do we also care about incomes of those a bit
above one dollar per day, or consumption above one
dollar per day, or about the health of poor adults,
even perhaps of adult males? Of course. Do we
care about qualitative anti-poverty objectives like
human rights and political voice? Do we care about
the broader set of country-set objectives in PRSPs?
Of course.
Finally, the IDGs are also very important
as a symbol--Paul Collier has used the word
"metaphor". They are readily accessible and
powerful, speaking to the heart as well as to the
head. They help mobilize broad support for poverty
reduction and for aid, which we all know needs all
the support it can get these days. And as we can
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 92 see by this meeting or by the IDG cards distributed
in the past by the Fund and by DFID, they can
mobilize aid donors and other partners to work more
closely together in support of country-led programs
of poverty reduction.
The DAC is presenting to its high-level
meeting next month three important and interlinked
sets of guidance for donors. They are on poverty
reduction per se, conflict prevention, and
sustainable development. The Bank and the Fund and
UNDP, as well as DAC members and in fact a number
of other people in this room, have participated in
preparing these guidelines, and we are very
grateful for this partnership.
But I want to talk just about one point
from the poverty guidelines, and this is the point
that has come up several times before, of policy
coherence.
You have in your notebooks -and I'm sure
everyone has read through their notebooks fully by
now--most of the draft poverty guidelines that will
be presented to the high-level meetings. One of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 93 the chapters, Chapter 4, is on policy coherence.
This is a chapter that came out of the work of the
Poverty Network of the DAC. As a result of the
work done by this Poverty Network and with a very
strong push from a number of the bilateral donors,
the OECD board, called the Council, has just
launched its first systematic effort to get OECD
countries to address policy coherence for
development.
I want to be realistic about this. I
don't think that OECD agricultural markets are all
going to open up instantly to developing countries.
But I think that having OECD committees and OECD
countries considering explicitly the development
impact of all their relevant policies can help
improve decisions and can help have a positive
impact on development, and this applies country by
country and hopefully, over time, it could have a
positive impact on international negotiations.
Thus, in sum, from the OECD point of view,
we are very much in sympathy with the views that
have been expressed by several around here that we
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003 2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 94 do need to look symmetrically at what developing
countries need to do and at what OECD countries or
rich countries need to do. Whether it is the 10-10
formula, I don't know, but that is a very nice way
of putting it.
Finally, we appreciate the chance to be
here and to learn from the distinguished
representatives of developing countries and
multilateral agencies in this very, very important
joint effort.
Thanks.
MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much, Paul.
That was very helpful. I don't think you need your computer anymore.
I am very glad that we were able to hear
from two of the many parents or godparents of the
International Development Goals this morning.
Let's now turn to the fourth presentation,
Michael Schultz, on the DFID perspective.
Michael, please.
MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you very much.
It is a testament to the degree of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 95 international agreement and coherence on how to
achieve the goals that much of what I was planning
to say has already been said. So I hope that will
manage to get us to the coffee break on time.
I do have a computer, and I think it
works, and maybe it is going to the screen up here,
so you don't just have to listen to my voice, but
you'll have some visual distraction at the same
time.
Anyway, while we are waiting for that, let
me start. There are just three things that I want
to talk about. First of all will be a general talk
about the International Development Goals and how
it has affected the work of DFIDi secondly, to say
a little bit about coherence in policy--again, I
think that that has already been mentioned by many
speakers; and thirdly, to say a little bit about
the importance of consistency of effort.
To start with the International
Development Goals and the impact that they have had
on DFID, as everyone probably knows, DFID became
DFID in 1997. There are just three quick points I
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 96 want to make about these and the way in which it
has affected the work of DFID.
The first one is that they are a joined-up
set--and I think this point has been made by
several other speakers. We don't regard them as
being sort of hierarchically organized or causally
related, but they are a nice set of indicators of
progress across a wide range of different aspects
of social, human, and economic development.
The second point is that they have
international legitimacy. This has been said often
enough by everyone else around this table.
And thirdly, they do characterize very
nicely what we want to see in terms of impact on
people; that it really does put people ~gain back
at the center of development. I think that is
worth dwelling on.
The way in which these have had an impact
on DFID--I'll just run quickly through the ways in
which we have documented this. We started off with
the first white paper, and I'll just talk a bit
about the two white papers we have published. The
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 97 first one asserted that poverty elimination as
expressed by the International Development Goals
would be at the center of all of our work. We then
went on to document in a little more detail how we
would achieve those goals through various target
strategy papers. The way in which that change in
DFID policy has been characterized is that prior to
having poverty at the center of all of our work, we
used to have lots of different objectives, and
poverty elimination was one of them, and we only
had one or two ways in which to deliver on these
objectives, so we were a conventional deliverer of
bilateral development assistance, mainly through
bilateral aid projects.
We have really turned it completely around
now. We now have poverty as our single objective,
but we have a very much wider range of instruments
by which we can deliver this objective, and our
view of the complexity of the processes, both
nationally and internationally, that have to be
worked on deliver poverty reduction is much more
sophisticated than it used to be.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 98 If we could go on to the next slide--
policy coherence. Again, there has been mention
made already this morning about the conference that
was called on the 26th of February this year by
Gordon Brown, our Chancellor of Exchequer and Clare
Short, our Secretary of State for International
Development, and there is a nice indication of the
extent to which the achievement of poverty
elimination worldwide and the delivery of DFID's
policy objectives are now integrated into all of
the UK Government's objectives.
There are a number of examples of how this
is working within the UK Government on trade,
whereas prior to 1997, the Department for
International Development, or the Overseas
Development Administration which it then was,
wouldn't really have had very much impact or
interaction with departments of trade, and now we
have a very close relationship with them.
Also, in order to work on conflict in
Africa, we have established joint funds, and we are
working together with the foreign office and the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 99 Ministry of Defense, recognizing that there is no
point in having one arm of your government trying
to eradicate poverty and then perhaps another bit
of the same government perhaps working against
that--not deliberately, but perhaps there is scope
for more coherent working there. So there are a
number of examples there of how that is working.
The second part of our coherence is that
the International Development Goals are now pretty
comprehensively embedded into all the work that
DFID is doing, and one example is that our Public
Service Agreement, which is the agreement that we
sign with the Treasury in order to get the funds
for our aid budget, now have the International
Development Goals embedded in them. This does not
mean that DFID is in a very close way accountable
for percentage changes in particular International
Development Goals in individual countries, but that
overall, the Treasury's assessment of our
performance is going to be on the basis that we
begin to see improvements in the International
Development Goals in the countries that are major
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 100 recipients of DFID assistance.
So it is not just--we have the
International Development Goals not just as a
general statement of intent, but we are beginning
to embed them into our thinking about resource
allocation. So the final point on this is that
more and more within our internal resource
allocation procedures, where we put our money and
where we put our people is where we think we are
going to have results and where we think we are
going to deliver quickly against these
International Development Goals.
I think we are fairly early on in that
process, and I'm sure this will be a subject of a
very lively discussion in the second part of this
meeting, because this obviously brings with it some
very uncomfortable dilemmas--should one be
essentially rewarding success, or should one be
trying to support the people who have not yet
managed to achieve that success. So there are some
difficult decisions to be made there.
Finally, just to talk a little bit about
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 101 the consistent effort that is needed to deliver
this--again, mention has been made of this--
countries come first, and Poverty Reduction
Strategies, and countries' own budgetary and
planning mechanisms shoul& be at the center of the
process, and DFID is very happy to contribute in a
major way toward countries where we think there is
a strong national, country-based ownership of
Poverty Reduction Strategies.
Secondly, I think everyone has recognized,
the DAC as well in the poverty guidelines, that we
need to streamline our procedures. We have all
seen countries where a dozen or so different donors
all in the same sector, all with slightly
conflicting and competing reporting and
accountability requirements, and posing an almost
intolerable burden on our partners, and there is
clearly a great deal of scope for getting rid of
some of the redundancy and competition and
competitiveness there.
The final point--a longer-term view. That has been ment.ioned already, but 2015 is slightly
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 102 further away than the planning horizon of most
governments and development organizations. I think
that now, DFID is trying to build into its planning
procedures a much longer-term view rather than
simply, reacting to last week's events and what we
think is going to be in the headlines next week. So
we are thinking a bit about a much longer-term
engagement with countries where we think that that
engagement is going to payoff.
I think that's about all that I want to
say at the moment. Certainly, we are now nearly 4
years into this process of building the
International Development Goals into our policy
work and allocation of resources. We haven't
gotten to the end of the road yet, but ultimately,
I think our desire is to see DFID's identity
somehow disappear to the extent that it is possible
for an individual donor's identity to disappear and
for it to become just part of a much more joined-
up, coherent, and consistent international
development effort.
Just one final point, back to coherence in
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 103 policYt and this is perhaps a challenge for the
discussions later in the day. Our Chancellor of
the Exchequer t when he called the conference on
working against child poverty at the end of
FebruarYt saw part of the purpose of that meeting
as being to join up what he saw as being the global
social t economic and political institutions t and he
described the UN institutions t the social
institution, as being in a sense the custodians or
guardians of the social development objectives t if
you like t of the IDGs 1 but the Bank was more of a
guardian of the economic development objectives,
and there are other global political institutions--
the various G-8, G-20 t G-77 arrangements. And he
wanted to see these three sort of streams of
institutions work very much more closely together.
His sense was that they tended to pursue little
bits of the International Development Goals which
they felt were particularly relevant to them. They
saw the purpose of that conference as trying to
bring together these social, economic, and
political objectives to see them as mutually
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E~ WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 104 reinforcing rather than ones you could pick and
choose with.
I think we are beginning to see at the
start of the first year of the 21st century that
there is increasing policy convergence. The World Development Report and the Human Development
Report, although they are still separate
publications, do seem in their tone and focus to be
moving closer together. I don't know whether by
the end of this first decade of the 21st century,
we are going to see them merge entirelYi I am sure
some would argue that it is worth keeping them
separate. But I think there is a great deal of
progress there, so I think the prospects for a more
coherent and consistent effort are great.
MR. SANDSTROM: Thank you very much,
Michael, for a very helpful overview of the DFID
approach. I think it is important for all of us to
understand, because you provide very clear
leadership in this area.
Let us now break for coffee, and I am sure
that during the coffee break, some of the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 105 discussion will start. But then we should return,
I am told, by 11:10 for the discussion, and Jo
Ritzen will then guide the discussion, which I'm
sure will be lively and take us even further.
Enjoy the coffee.
MR. SWANSON: Let me make a couple of
housekeeping announcements as we break. We'd like
to come back at 11:10 so we'll have time for the
discussion.
While you are out there, if you would give
any corrections to the Participants List to the
people running the registration table, we'll get
your names, phone numbers, and email addresses
correct. So look at what you have in your binder
right now and then correct it and give it to us.
Second, there are additional materials out
there that were not available to us in time to put
into the binders. I think that Mr. Tumusiime-
Mutebile's paper is among those things out on the
table. Some other things, we are still duplicating
and will try to have available by the end of the
day for you.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 106 Finally, you will find that there are some
demonstrations in the lobby of the Bank's data
systems. Feel free to walk up, try the computers
yourself, or rely on one of our guides out there to
help you through that.
WeIll see you in 15 minutes.
[Coffee break.]
MR. RITZEN: Let's restart our session.
I would like very much to thank all of you
who came to me and to other organizers to say that
things are moving quite nicely. Indeed, someone
actually remarked that we have already reached so
much of an agreement that we might as well spend
the rest of this beautiful day outside.
Actually, I think we are in a very
interesting position that clearly, the
presentations this morning showed a very strong
convergence and a very strong commitment to making
that convergence stick with respect to countries
and ccuntries' room for maneuver essentially as the
basis for thinking; and secondly, with respect to
being far more elaborate with respect to the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 ah 107 balance in commitments on the part of countries and
also on the part of the international community and
the way it was expressed by Emmanuel, the 10-10 as
an expression of commitment and of compact; and
thirdly also with respect to moving beyond the
terms, IDG or Millennium Declaration Goals--that
should not be in the way of promoting whatever was
the original intention.
We now have a chance, I think, to
elaborate and to also be more precise, to move
beyond where we were, and where we were positioned
this morning, which we will do with two
discussants. And then, there have already been two
requests for comments, from Denise Lievesley from
UNESCO and from the International Fund for
Agricultural Development.
Let me first ask Cyril Enweze to take the
floor as a discussant. Mr. Enweze is the highly
respected Vice President of Operations at the
African Development Bank, quite often supported by
several international organizations, to lead that
position. He has been very active in his services
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 -hhhh ah 108 throughout Africa, having served in, among other
capacities, the East Africa Division, Northwest
Africa Division, West Africa Division, and Central
Africa Division of the IMF, and prior to becoming
Vice President for Operations at the African
Development Bank, Mr. Enweze was Assistant Director
of the Indian Ocean Division of the International
Monetary Fund.
Mr. Enweze was educated in economics at
the University of Nigeria, the University of
Cambridge, and Columbia University.
Mr. Enweze?
MR. ENWEZE: Thank you very much, indeed, Jozef.
First, I would like to thank the World
Bank for this unique opportunity. I think as a
background for what I have to say, if you'll permit
me, I'd like to just very quickly like to remind
all of us about just a few things that happened
this morning which I think are very, very
important, because I have a concern that it is easy
to forget some of the highlights of this morning.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 109 In a nutshell, you talked yourself, Jozef,
about the need for us to reinforce each other's
roles. You also talked about the tremendous
convergence, which was very clear, and the need for
more precision. I shall be bold later on and make
some suggestions about that.
But Nick Stern talked about the need for a
contract among ourselves and to better align our
roles to achieve the IDG targets. And I thought
Sven Sandstrom laid out the full work which is
very, very important. He reminded us that the IDG
targets actually have implications for the future--
sometimes this is not so obvious, but I think this
is very important--that the goals are
multidimensional, and that we need the right
approach, he said, for a major, concerted effort.
We must try to work out some kind of compact, he
said, and so on.
And then, Mark Malloch Brown spoke about
two important focus areas, the PRSPs and the global
monitoring system. But I was also struck about a
debate that almost surfaced this morning, which I
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 110 would hope that we can rise above, and that is the
relationship between the lOG targets and the
Millennium goals and so on and so forth.
Frankly, the more specific we are, the
more focused we are, the more concrete we are, the
better. As Professor Colin Bradford said, the lOG
targets have for me a particular beauty in that
they are very few, they are very concrete, they are
highly monitorable, and they are achievable.
Sometimes, I think we get away with a lot--we go to
these conferences, we talk in generalities, and we
never pin ourselves down. The lOG targets pin us
down, and we cannot get away from those targetsi we
must not get away from those targets.
It is in that context, therefore, that I
have a few suggestions. First of all, in my view,
there is a challenge, and let me tell you what the
challenge is. The challenge is the following. In
light of these very specific targets, how can we
around this table prevent the implementation of the
lOG targets from being an endless recital of what
we are all of us doing individually and severally.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 46-6hhh ah 111
I have listened to people say what UNICEF is doing l
what ADB is doing l what the World Bank is doing l
what UNDP is doing. That is very important l but
franklYI I think it is also important that l as
everybody keeps saying l we find a way for synergy
to work together.
Therefore l everybody talked about concrete
partnerships I but so far l in my view 1 I think we have to face up to the fact that we are paying
substantively lip service to this l and therefore l the task before this group in my view is to see how
indeed can we give meaning to this whole idea of
partnership for synergYI and what resultant
division of labor that can come out of itl and who
is going to lead in what area, and who is going to
complement whom.
One of the beauties of this particular
meeting l Jozef l is that as I look around the
tablel everybody who counts in the process insofar
as the IDG targets are concerned is here. I was
reminded by what Mark Malloch Brown said that it is
really not a question of standing outside the room
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 112 and throwing stones at the window, but to find a
way for all of us to be inclusive in this process.
If we do it that way, everybody has a role to play,
and I think this is what we have to try to do.
That is the challenge before us. And what
are the issues? Very concretely, in my view, the
issues are the following. If we are going to
measure and monitor, I think we had better, all of
us collectively, have a good idea and agreement
about what indeed it is that we are going to
measure and how.
The IDG targets have a beauty in that most
of them have been defined, but there are a few of
them that need a consensus definition by all of us
so we know what we are talking about, so that I
don't measure differently in the ADB, you don't
measure differently in the World Bank and in UNICEF
and the UN System, and so on--so that we know
exactly what we are talking about, .because we are
talking about global targets, as Mark Malloch Brown
said, global monitoring targets.
Secondly, if we are going to monitor, I
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 02 46-6666 ah 113 think we also have to get an agreement as to how we
are going to monitor these IDGs. These two points
bring me to the conclusion that we should, I hope,
before we leave here today have a clearer sense
among ourselves of who is going to do what with
whom--and I mean very specifically--because you
know, when Sven spoke this morning, he broke it
down nicely, I thought. He said let's map or
delineate exactly what is going to be done by the
donor community; let's delineate exactly what is
going to be done by the developing countries
themselves; and let's delineate what is going to be
done by the international financial institutions,
the IFls.
I think this breakdown is very useful, at
least as a starting point--it is very, very
precise--and within that context, how are we going
to, concretely and very specifically, collaborate.
Now, against the background of this
challenge and the issues, I think there is some
good news, in my view, because it is really not so
difficult. The good news is that actually, the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 114 developing countries themselves are looking at us
in the donor community among the IFIs to actually
coordinate our actions. We keep saying it, we keep
saying it, but we send different missions to all
these countries, asking the same questions on the
same issues, et cetera, et cetera, and we waste
everybody's time, we waste our own time, and we
waste their time.
So they are looking to find a way to
collaborate in order to avoid what Mark Malloch
Brown called "the old wars."
The second good news, as I said earlier,
is that quite frankly, there is tremendous
potential for everybody in this room to play a
role--all the institutions, all the countries, and
so on and so forth. Our challenge is to tap these
various comparative advantages and weld them into a
way that will enable us to accomplish these IDG
goals.
Therefore, what is my specific suggestion?
I said I was going to be very bold--and sometimes,
fools go where NGOs fear to tread. But I like to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202 546-6666 ah 115 get results; I don't like a lot of talk, because
quite frankly, we have talked a lot--l mean, there
is so much consensus, there is hardly anything else
to say. So I have a very specific suggestion.
I think we need a task force of some sort,
and that task force will have certain terms of
reference--and if you don't think that is bold
enough, I was bold enough to jot down this morning
what I think are some of the things a task force
could be charged to look at--so that when we meet
the next time, we don't go over the same ground
again.
First of all, the task force can try to
align the lDG targets and the Millennium targets.
Frankly, I think that that is a very simple task
that can be done very quickly. I had a quick chat
with Colin at tea, and he has already done that.
So let's not waste time on that, but let's
recognize that it is there, and let's let the task
force align it for us, and then we can dispose of
it so that everybody can feel comfortable that we
are all in the same place. So that is number one.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.B. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 ah 116 The second thing the task force can do is
to help us in light of everybody who is here to
delineate what I call this division of labor--what
are the lead rules by various institutions based on
their comparative advantages, and what are their
complementarities. When I speak about this, I am
saying that with tremendous confidence because of
two things.
One, we have a certain relationship now
between the ADB and the World Bank where we are in
fact actually working on trying to define in the
context of the African Continent who does what, and
that relationship with the World Bank tells me
quite frankly that there is a lot that you can gain
from that kind of discussion.
Secondly, we are trying to do the same
thing with other institutions in the UN System. It
can be done. So let's get down to concrete basics.
If we don't do that, in my view, we are really
talking around the subject. So that is the second
thing the task force should do.
The third thing the task force should do
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 ~-~~~~ ah 117 is try to define standards and harmonize approaches
to measurement issues and monitoring modalities so
we are all talking about the same thing. As I said, in terms of the targets, the IDG is a
beautiful piece of work. It is very, very clear.
You cannot quarrel with the definitions and
summaries, but the monitoring modalities are not
clear; that is for us to figure out.
The fourth thing that the task force
should do in my view is--what are the resource
implications? I believe Ian Kinniburgh talked
about this. The resource implications are very
important in light of what is happening with the
ODA targets, what is happening with the soft
lending of the World Bank, the IDA, and for us in
the ADB, the ADF, and so on and so forth.
The Governor for Uganda talked about the
volatility of donor resources in light of all of
this, and what are the resource implications,
because that is not addressed in the IDGs as such.
I think e need to tackle that.
The fifth thing that I think the task
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 118 force can do is to look at the institutional
implications of these lDGs. What do I mean by
this? I think there is a very implicit issue of
capacity-building both for our various institutions
and for the countries themselves, so that if they
are going to take the lead--we talked about taking
the lead in the PRSP process and so forth--they can
take the lead. We all recognize in our various
institutions that there is a major problem of
capacity in our countries, so how can we make it
possible for these countries to take the lead in
the PRSP process, for example? So that is the
fifth thing the task force can do.
The other thing the task force can do is
to give us suggestions as to how do we deal with
these issues and other implementation issues. Now,
the list that I am giving you is not comprehensive,
but these are just some thoughts that occurred to
me listening to all the presentations this morning.
And I think that if we do this, subsequent meetings
can then focus on stock-takingi they can focus on
the balance sheet which I believe Brian talked
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 119 about, so we know where we are going and where the
deficits are; and we can do that at various points
in time and really monitor what we are doing.
Otherwise, I think we run the risk--and I am really
terrified of the prospect--that we will have
another meeting on the IDG, and we'll sit around
and hear the same kinds of presentations--that
would be terribly boring.
Thank you very much indeed.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you so much. Up to
now, nothing has been boring, and in that sense, I
think you are very right in making sure that also
the next meeting will be more precise and bring us
further along. I think you gave us a lot of
stimulation.
I would now like to ask Mats Karlsson to
give us his comments and enter into the arena,
giving us room for discussion. Mats Karlsson came
only recently to the Bank. He has been Vice
President now for one and a half years, as Vice
President for External Affairs. But his presence
here is very much related to his other job, which
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 120 is Vice President for United Nations Affairs, where
we have taken very seriously the linkage with other
international agencies.
Before Mats came to the Bank, he was the
Swedish State Secretary for Development Cooperation
and one of tee persons who was very much involied
in the document, "Shaping the 21st Century: The
Contribution of Development Cooperation," at OECD,
which very much gave rise to the thinking around an
international compact on International Development
Goals.
I mentioned to Mats that it is always a
good sign if so may different partners take credit
for being part of the furthering of something,
because that means that the baby is growing well.
I now go to Mats.
MR. KARLSSON: Thanks, Jo.
Let me make five points to get this
discussion going between us.
I believe very strongly in the Development
Goals, but my first two points are caveats. I
believe that if we don't respond to them, we may
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 121 well not get the Development Goals to realize the
opportunity inherent in them.
The first is that we don't miss out on the
major progress made in the past couple of years of
deepening our understanding of poverty and again
fall into the fallacies of averages, averages at
global or even at national level, that we
understand that what goes on inside communities,
inside households, power relationships, men and
women, different strategy in societies--this is not
just in order to enable us to monitor more truly
what goes on for poor people, but it is precisely
that we must not lose our understanding of the real
dynamics of what it is that ultimately beats
poverty.
We have made progress in this; let's keep
that very much at the focus of our attention.
The second point or the second caveat is
that the Development Goals will only work to align
our efforts if we respect country leadership. Of
course, that point has been made repeatedly, but it
is an important one, and I think in particular,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 122 Governor Mutebile made the point very well this
morning--there are hard choices to be made. And we
all know that governments live in a political
reality, and the political economy they face in
making these hard choices must be made an integral
part of the understanding. No mechanistic
application of the Development Goals therefore will
deliver.
With these two caveats, I believe the IDGs
offer tremendous opportunity. Let me, then, as my
third point again focus--and forgive me for
repeating what was said, but I think it is so
important in legitimizing our effort--emphasize the
Millennium Declaration and the political legitimacy
coming from the heads of state and government from
allover the world.
The problem in the past, of course, has
been that many agreements have been made, but they
do require different parts of government to align,
and that has been one of the most problematic
thresholds both at developing country level and in
developed countries to cross to get the thing done.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 . (202) 546-6666 ah 123 So the idea of a compact that was placed
here squarely on the table this morning is very
important. Of course, that idea has been around as
long as we have had a North-South dialogue, and we
are seeing it inherent in a lot of the practical
progress being made from the end of the eighties,
when the Special Program of Assistance really
changed the way we coordinated work in support of
the poorest countries. That same understanding led
eventually to the HIPC initiative, to its
radicalization, and now, of course, the PRSP
process that, as Mark Malloch Brown said this
morning, is the centerpiece of coordinated support.
The need for a compact is clearly also
validated in the analysis that exists on what makes
aid work. The "Assessing Aid" research that came
out a few years ago, and a sequel coming out in
just a couple of weeks, "Aid and Reform in Africa,"
clearly show that unless that compact between good
policy at country level and outside support is in
place, the efforts by us all won't be efficient.
And the compact was very much at the core
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6666 ah 124 of the thinking in the DAC circle of donors back in
1996. I re-read it over the weekend, and the
compact argument is squarely there. Many thing of
that report as a report that again brought out the
DAC goals. Well, of course, first of all, there
never were DAC goals. They were UN goals, and in
the discussion, then, explicitly chosen to be the
UN goals from the past. So that was a misnomer
from beginning to end calling them the DAC goals.
But perhaps equally interesting is that
the DAC report, as Brian Hammond reflected, had two
chapters--one on the output goals, but also a
second chapter on how one should work to achieve
them, and bringing up the best modern thinking on
what the compact means. And perhaps, rereading it,
it is all the more disconcerting to reflect now,
some 5 years later, on the lack of progress in
particular on the developed country side of that
compact. Aid levels continued to fall after that
report. Progress on coherence and particularly on
trade has been very difficult to achieve. The one
area where there has been some progress is
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 125 regarding coordination at country level; but again,
as Governor Mutebile mentioned, we are very, very
far from responding to developing countries'
legitimate demands on their donors to be much more
responsive in reducing the cost of doing business
with them.
Nevertheless the ideas are there to be
built on, and I really think that we should take
the Millennium Declaration now as the political
document that embodies the compact and build on it
going forward, because nothing can beat that in
terms of political strength.
The fourth point, then, is for us in the
multilateral system obviously to align. "Old wars" were mentioned by Mr. Enweze, picking up on that
from this morning's discussion. That must be made a
part of history. We must take this opportunity to
show to our financiers--we in the multilateral
system, the UN, the World Bank, the MDBs, the IMF,
and I would also make an argument about the World
Trade Organization--that we can function as a truly
functional, accountable, benign multilateral
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 Bth STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 126 system. We must in this area of nervousness around
what globalization means show ourselves to be a
locus of trust and someone who can deliver.
And if we are to deliver, we must, one, of
course, internalize this--and that is particularly
what we are doing; we must secondly continue,
whenever we meet in a multilateral context, to
always bring it one step forward and not repeat
past discussions. We will have a key stage in
Mexico in March in a year's time in financing when
the World Conference for Financing for Development
takes place. That will be very important.
But I see three particular tasks that go
very much along your lines, Mr. Enweze, of a task
force. They are, first of all, to express again
clearly, beyond the acronyms of UNDAFs and CDFs and
PRSPs, et cetera, what are the common guiding
principles at country level--what is good
development practice. I know that in the OECD,
there has been a lot of good work on this, and in
every institution, and the developing countries are
demanding it from us. Let's express those common
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-66 6 ah 127 guiding principles.
Secondly, obviously, is the monitoring
work--we talked about that.
Thirdly, could we not express ourselves in
terms of a shared framework of accountability? I
thought that came through very clearly this
morning. Mark said it--mutual responsibilities,
but clear accountabilities; the synergy, you said,
Mr. Enweze. This is the commitment that we from
the World Bank certainly bring to the table, and I
think we can deliver on that, and we must show that
we have delivered on it. On that basis, I think we
can expand the envelope of our finance as a
multilateral system, not just marginally, but
substantially, which we know is part of what is
necessary to achieve the Development Goals.
The last point, fifthly, are we ready to
engage as well on the supporting global agenda.
These poverty goals are what we are about as
multilateral institutions. But we know in an
increasingly interdependent world that you cannot
deliver on poverty unless you help create the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 128 institutions that support an enabling environment,
if you will, globally.
These issues, the emerging issues of
global public policy, global public goods,
coherence in governments' approach to these issues
as multilaterals we have a role to play in shaping
that agenda and responding to it.
There is a dialectic--unless you deliver
on poverty, I don't believe the world as a whole
can manage the urgent global issues--but the other
way around, we won't deliver on the urgent global
issues that truly also impact developed countries
unless we make real progress on poverty. So I
think that that dialectic is very much at the core
of our institutional choices. Again, the
Millennium Declaration set us on course, but we
have a lot of work--we know it--and the Secretary-
General will be providing a road map. But are we
ready to again look at the whole multilateral
system as a system responding to each perhaps as
clusters of institutions around specific issues of
great urgency?
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 129 Thank you.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you so much, Mats, for
underlining the need for such a shared framework
and also for making progress toward what OECD, I
thought, so nicely outlined--almost a checklist of
policy coherence--what Paul Isenman called a major
challenge, whether indeed we could go in that
direction.
I would very much like to invite comments
from the floor and would then like to give each of
the presenters about 3 minutes toward the end to
reflect on what has been put on the table.
1/11 first go to Denise Lievesley and then
to IFAD, World Food Programme, WHO--sorry for using
the institutional affiliations as your name--UNFPA I
UNDP, Mr. Zongo l Germany. I think it's a good idea
if you just put your name plates in a vertical
position so that I can see them. That gives us a nice list to start with.
Ms. LievesleYI please, who is Director of
UNESCO Institute of Statistics.
REPRESENTATIVE OF UNESCO: Thank you very
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202 546-6666 ah 130 much.
I'd like to begin by thanking the
organizers very much for inviting me to this
meeting and to apologize for the fact that I have
to catch an international flight this evening, so
I'll be having to leave rather earlier, I am
afraid, and won't be here tomorrow.
The first thing I want to do is to
underline UNESCO's commitment to the IDGs. We have
internally been looking at how we can bring our
statistical systems into coherence with the work on
the IDGs.
I very much welcome this meeting as a
recognition of the critical value of data to inform
us in the worldwide fight against poverty and in
support of countries in their efforts to achieve
sustainable and equitable development.
We also recognize the importance of having
a tight list of indicators. The focus is
absolutely critical, as a number of people have
said. I think there does need to be work on
reconciling the differences, but as Brian Hammond
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 131
underlined t that should not take a lot of time and
effort. It is really a straightforward activity
that we need to do.
So what we want t obviouslYt is concrete
indicators that we are measuring t and in the same
waYt harmonized indicators of cohesion of aims.
That is also important for two other
reasons which haventt been mentioned. One is the
burden upon countries in terms of statistical
reporting t and related to that t the concerns that
there have been in terms of data duplication by the
different international agencies. And I think the
international agencies are very much committed to
eliminating turf battles in terms of data
collection and working together to share data.
Having said all of that, I think I would
like to just pick up on a point that was made by
Mr. Karlsson in a rather different way. That is
that I think we have to recognize that the IDGs
inevitably are the lowest common denominator of
statistics t because one of the things that drives
us is being able to have comparable data across
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 132 different countries of the world. And we are
currently in a situation where, in some of our
areas--I would not particularly in education
statistics--we have weak statistical systems in
many countries, and therefore, the data that we
would like to collect in order to determine whether
or not we are meeting the goals that have been set
are not the ones we are able to collect. So
although I am very committed to having this set of
indicators, I think that we do need to have a
system of reviewing it; I think we do need to
enable countries to develop statistically and to
improve the set of indicators.
So I am not talking about changing the
goalpost; I am saying that we have inadequate
measures of tee goals, and we need to make
improvements.
The UN Statistical Commission at their
meeting last week I think recognized this. They
have set up a group called Friends of the Chair of
the UN Statistical Commission to look at the whole
issue of how we try to improve the quality of the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 133 development indicators within a framework of
addressing response burden and problems of weak
statistical systems within countries.
I think it was Mr. Kinniburgh who
mentioned the need for the indicators also to feed
into an assessment of the resources needed to
achieve them. I am very pleased that we believe
around the table that these goals are achievable.
I wake up in a panic at night about the extent to
which they are achievable. Universal primary
education for the year 2015 sounds an awfully long
way off, but if we are to achieve it, it means that
we have to get children into school in 2007, and to
get children into school in 2007 means that we have
to have the teachers being trained now, which means
that we need to have had the secondary education
before now in order to achieve this. And we are
doing this in an environment where, in some countries, due to the problems of AIDS, teachers
are dying at twice the rate they are being
recruited. So I just wonder how we are going to do
this--and it is not just financial resources; it is
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 134 also capacity of countries, absorption capacity.
So I think there is a really vital role
for us to play alongside the goals in terms of
translating them into what this means in terms of
resources.
So I would say that just reporting on the
indicators is not enough. That is not what
monitoring is, in my sense. Monitoring actually
has to have interim targets. It has to have
feedback loops. It has to have systems of flagging
when we are not meeting the targets. And I think
it is important that this meeting take on board the
process of how we are going to do that.
The other point that I wanted to make is
that I am very pleased that statistics is rising up
the political agenda. I think that that is really
very valuable. Statistics to some extent is coming
out of a very dark, bleak period. I would like to
recognize in particular the work of DFID in this
area.
And statistics are important in terms of
advocacy, and they are also important in terms of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 135 monitoring. But we must not forget that statistics
are also important in terms of developing the
policies in the first place, and we need much
richer data sources in order to develop and inform
the policies in the first place.
In that respect, I think we have to think
of the indicators as being the top layer of a
statistical system that enables the countries to
look at, say, inequalities within the countries to
determine the extent to which they can develop
policies that enable them to be on target for
meeting the goals.
I would like to put in a plea at this
point for the need for a more coherent effort in
the area of statistical capacity-building in order
to help countries not only to collect the data that
is needed for policymaking, but also to get better
dialogue between users and producers of statistics
at the country level to ensure that the statistics
are being used for policy purposes within the
countries.
So to sum up what I am actually arguing
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 136 for, it is, yes, commitment to the IDGs, very, very
much supportive of them, but that they should be
seen within a broader statistical framework.
Thank you.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much.
As Chairman of the Governing Board of the
UNESCO Institute of Statistics, of course, I share
everything which was just mentioned.
IFAD, please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF IFAD: Mr. Chairman, my
name is Antiqur Rahman, and I am from IFAD.
I thank you very much for inviting IFAD to
this very valuable meeting. I and my colleagues
who corne here agree, and IFAD agrees, as our
colleagues in UNESCO, with the International
Development Goals. We fully share these goals, and
in our organizations, we work toward achieving
those goals by 2015 and we would like to see how we
can achieve them.
I would like to make one or two comments--
in fact, I have six or seven points, but I will
collapse them into a few comments.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 6- ah 137 First, I would not that many of tee
comments made by Mr. Mats Karlsson were very close
to our comments, and we fully share and agree with
his comments.
Having said that, I fully agree with the
point that he made that we need to deepen our
understanding of poverty. We have come a long way
in understanding how poverty works, what poverty
does, what has to be done to reduce poverty, but we
need to deepen these understandings.
In the process, we also have to unlearn a
few things, and it is on this unlearning issue,
some of the things that we have to unlearn and some
of the things that we have to deepen that I would
like to make some comments.
Before going to that, first, on these
International Development Goals of 2015, while we
agree with these goals, we also agree with the
point made that these are a political agenda, these
are rallying points to mobilize world attention,
world resources, synergy, to achieve these goals.
But then, we have to look beyond these.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 138 It is not in an effort to break this into a laundry
list, but in a way it is to break these up into
more realistic targets which are understood by the
various partners involved in the process--by the
countries, by financial institutions, by
development agencies, and most importantly, Mr.
Chairman, by the poor themselves, who are the main
partners in this process.
It is from this point of view that I would
like to make the first point, that is, in our
process, we have to take seriously the partnerships
of the poor. We have to go beyond the countries,
and we have to work with the poor and make the poor
the focal point for our development efforts--and
not only just in terms of paper but in ~erms of
understanding what are their characteristics and
their aspirations and desires.
From this point of view, I would just like
to mention--and it is not a point to publicize IFAD
or this poverty report--we have just brought out
this Rural Poverty Report, and when we talk about
the poor, we have to understand that a large
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 139 majority of the poor are the rural poor; and if we
look to the future, if we have to reduce poverty by
half, the proportion of the poor living on below
one dollar a day, then we have to understanding
that a large majority of them will have to be rural
poor, and we have to understand that we will have
to focus on living conditions and the
sustainability of those livelihoods, which includes
agriculture, which includes the rural sector, and
which includes food production.
Saying this, Mr. Chairman, we have to
understanding also that the rural poor have
enormous diversity and are not just
agriculturalists or just farmers--they are non-farm
workers, they are livestock operators,
pastoralists. We have to understand their
diversity and work with a wide variety of these
things.
What does it mean in terms of operational
terms? When we talk about development targets, we
have to understand various indicators and targets
in relation to these diverse categories of the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6666 ah 140 poor. I will not go into the details, but we can
in the subsequent discussion go into the details of
what sort of targets and different categories we
are talking about.
The third point, Mr. Chairman, is the
point that has been mentioned that we need to have
more resource to achieve these. We need to have
more official development assistance, more
commitments of donor countries. But I think it is
more than that, and that is a point that we would
like to mention, and we have mentioned it in our
report also, that we have to talk about more
resources going to the poor themselves, and these
resources are not just official development
assistance but are more of country resources, more
of private sector resource, more of development
assistance. It is also, and very importantly, the
efficiency of the use of resources that one has to
focus on. And apparently, in the past, many of
these resources have not been used efficiently by
the countries, by the poor themselves, because of
lack of environment and lack of institutions.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202} 546-6666 ah 141 Fourthly, Mr. Chairman, when you talk
about efficiency of resource use, it is a question
of whether resources should be put in agriculture
or put in non-farm sectors, and whether non-farm
use of resources will give high returns. There is
a lot of discussion on this, but we like to believe
that if we put investments in agriculture, these
will be more efficient, and from the point of view
of poverty reduction, both direct and indirect
returns will be higher in the longer run. Again,
we can elaborate on this, but because of the time
shortage, we will not, but we can elaborate on what
we mean by this more efficient use of resources if
we invest in agriculture.
On the question of governance, we have to
understand that we are not talking only about
governance at the country level, governance at the
ministry of finance or agriculture or ministry of
rural development--we are going much beyond that.
We are talking about governance from the consumer
side, from the poor themselves, their partnership,
their participation, their rights, their
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 142 aspirations, and their capabilities. From this
perspective, if we talk about International
Development Goals, we have to talk about the
training, the capacity creation, the building of
their capacities, so we are talking about a whole
range of issues which are different and which go
beyond the International Development Goals in that
sense.
I will stop here, Mr. Chairman, but later
on, we will come back to some of these issues.
Thank you.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much, Mr.
Rahman.
Let me now turn to Mr. Namanga Ngongi,
Deputy Executive Director of the World Food
Programme.
REPRESENTATIVE OF WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just a few points.
The statements this morning have been very
enlightening and very useful, and I appreciate very
much the chance to be here.
I am particularly happy to hear from Mr.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003 2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 143 Enweze that progress has already been made to try
to realign the International Development Goals with
the Millennium Goals.
The particular concern of the World Food
Programme is not just this year, but last year, I
took part in the Paris Meeting on "The Better World
for All," and if we want to keep a few focused
targets or goals, we cannot really ignore the
nutrition and food aspect. It is just not
possible. Some of the things that we are trying to
measure, especially if we measure infant mortality
and stunting and the rest, are actually a direct
result of nutrition programs.
So I do not have the formula for it, and
if it has been aligned already, so much the better.
But I think that that is an area that we cannot
ignore. The fact that the World Food Summit came
last does not mean that the important goals should
not be reflected.
My second point is to thank my colleague
from IFAD for raising the point, because the
discussion was very much focused on development and
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 144 the Development Goals. If the emphasis is on
poverty and poverty reduction l maybe we need to
slant the discussion a little bit differently. We
have to know who are the poor l where they are l why
they are poor l why they are blocked from
participation in all of the opportunities which are
available at the national level.
Most of the development in most of our
countries will not be carried out by government or
by the international financial institutions l by the
World Bank or the UN System. It will be people
themselves l being able to identify and take
advantage of opportunities arising in their own
countries.
If we do not know what is blocking people
from taking part in their own development efforts
in their own countries l it is very difficult for us
to obtain the objective of poverty reduction. We
may attain the objective of development l of overall
development, but the poor will probably still be
there, especially the hard-core poor.
As my colleague from IFAD said, if we are
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 145 talking about poverty, clearly, we have to be
talking about rural areas. Unfortunately, a lot of
the discussions which go on on development ignore
the rural areas and therefore ignore the problem of
poverty. And if we are talking about rural areas,
although not all of them are in agriculture, a
large majority of them are in agriculture. And if
we are not investing--actually, we are de-
investing--in agriculture, how will we be able to
overcome the problems of the poor and of poverty in
many of the countries?
So I think that some of these issues are a
little bit contradictory. I think the overall
objective in itself is good, but really, when it
comes--the seminar itself says IIfrom consensus to
ll action - if we are going to go to action, we have
to clearly identify a little bit more precisely
what we need to do rather than just saying again
what we have all agreed on.
Clearly, the targets are very important,
but even more important is what we need to do to be
able to attain those targets, what actions we need
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6666 ah 146 to put in place so that we can attain those targets
rather than the targets being of themselves the
ultimate objective. The ultimate objective is to
get human beings who are able to stand on their own
feet and earn more than one dollar a day, and if
they don't earn more than one dollar a day, at
least they are living slightly better by improving
their own condition.
So I would suggest also that we identify,
as we have identified from the national level, what
needs to be done in a country for a country to be
able to take leadership, to lead its own
development process, and we should also identify
those factors which block the individual. Some of
these have been mentioned, such as education. Some
of it is also health. And probably one of the most
critical is nutrition, and that is very much
missing in the discussion.
So I am just saying that although we all
agree on all of these goals, I think that if we are
passing to action, we have to now go into the areas
which actually block individuals from being able to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 ah 147 improve their own lots in life.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you so much.
We are corning now to what Emmanuel put on
the table earlier, that is, the area of hard budget
constraints--not this time in money, but in time.
So I think we have only the possibility for two
additional contributions, and I would very much
like to contribute to the mixture, and I hope very
much that those from the international
organizations will bear with me. I think they will
have ample chance to bring up their points of view
in the discussion this afternoon on "Sharing
Experience and Building Knowledge," because I think
there, many of the points will definitely corne up.
I would very much like to listen now to
Mr. Zongo and also, if Germany could be short in
its presentation--but that is also not a sound from
the table in the sense of the donor community.
Mr. Zongo, please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF BURKINA FASO: Thank
you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Mr. Zongo, and Mr.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 148 Chairman, if you will allow me, I will speak in
French. I think it is possible.
MR. RITZEN: Yes, please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF BURKINA FASO
[INTERPRETED FROM FRENCH] : Thank you very much,
Mr. Chairman.
I think that after everything that has
been said, we have had excellent presentations,
excellent comments. It is the importance of such
big meetings where we see that everybody speaks
well, and we all agree on everything.
I wanted to add two or three things.
First, all that we have just heard shows that we
agree on one thing--that is to say that poverty is
a threat for everybody. At the same time, we all
agree to say that international goals seem quite
relevant.
But we have a problem. When we look at
these goals, we realize that there is a certain
number of aspects when you ask the poor about the
image of the poor, how the poor see their poverty.
I do not know if you have ever done it--go and ask
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 149 the poor, I1What is poverty for you? What does it look like to yoU?11
I think that in the different surveys that
are carried out, you would see that people will
tell you that poverty is the absence of having
anything. It is not because I have no money that I
am poor. I am poor because I have no access to
basic services--I can't go to school, I can't take
care of my health.
Of course, all of this is in the 2015
goals--but what is lacking in these goals is the
political aspects of poverty, and I think the
political aspects of poverty are important. What
do we say about human rights? How can we translate
human rights into goals? What do we do about
humiliation? What can we do about that in the
goals, because the political aspects mean exclusion
and marginalization of individuals.
So I agree with what has been said, but I
will add two things. What should we do to reduce
poverty? Mr. Mutebile was a good example, and I
think everybody else, of course, also made good
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 150 speeches, but in our countries, the real problem is
the question of capacity. Development can only be
done by the country itself.
Everybody likes to say that there should
be ownership, national ownership, that we should be
the pilot. How do you want us to be the pilot if
we don't have all of the elements to be able to
pilot? Therefore, we need more capacity.
If you talk about capacity, then you have
to see what are the priorities. Unfortunately,
everything is a priority in our countries. But
what are the real priorities--who decides?
And--everybody said it, UNDP and all the
others--all of the PRSPs and the other strategies
are a good thing in themselves. It is good,
because these are national processes that allow the
population themselves or that allow the social
society to participate. Therefore, the leaders
have to listen to the people.
But something should be added on the
PRSPs. The PRSPs have too narrow a vision.
Poverty is not a national affair; it is a regional
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 151 affair. There are many things that are the
elements of poverty. When you look at the social
sectors, how can you fight against AIDS if you do
not widen it to the regional framework?
So these are also priority aspects.
National priority, of course, but regional priority
also.
Mr. Chairman, the second problem is how do
we measure progress; how do we do that today? We
are asked, well, where are you, how far have you
gone. Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, we have our own
indicators. Each donor has different indicators--
who measures what, who measures whom. This is the
problem. We should all agree on indicators and see
how we measure. The measure indicators must be how
to measure impact; how can we see that public
policies have a real impact on people's daily
lives.
That is why I think that the problem of
coordination should be a priority. Unfortunately
this morning, we have seen that every institution
says the same thing--I agree, I do this, I do that.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 152 In our consensus, we should understand that the
institutions' actions must all fall into the
national priorities of the countries. And as he
said, we shouldn't say, well, I have CDF, I have
PRSP, I have this and that and the other--no. We
should have a national framework, and each
institution according to its competence helps us,
because we don't all have the same competence.
Each institution will help a different priority
field of the government.
So I would like it if all of us together
could decide on priorities and on indicators. We
should see how we can better spend public moneys.
What other progress do we want to measure?
If you look at education, for instance, if you look
at health, whose progress are we measuring? Are we
measuring the progress of the government? In that
case, we need more transparency. We have to give
the government a budgetary framework that is
transparent. We have talked a lot about
transparency.
Secondly, we have to see to it that at the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 153 evaluation stage, we should have a consensus. We
don't want UNDP to come and see us and evaluate,
and then the World Bank has an evaluation mission.
If we multiply all of these missions by 10, each
mission, we have to receive, we have to send
people, and we are wasting time. We have to
harmonize, we have to have joint evaluations,
including the beneficiaries, because our final aim
is to see to it that the beneficiary sees that its
poverty has been reduced. The beneficiary has to
feel less poor, less marginalized.
I am going to conclude, because I will
come back later and speak during the workshops.
It is true that resource mobilization is
important, but it is the coordinated .mobilization
of resources that is the most important. We need
resources, of course, but they have to be in a
coordinated framework.
A simple example--take education. If you
come to our countries, you are going to have a lot
of donors who agree with education, but each tells
me, I am going to build a school. If you tell him
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 154 that you also have to build housing for the
teachers, he will say, oh, no, that's not my
problem--I am not building any housing for the
teachers.
And if you also tell him, okay, if you
build us a school, there is no road to get to the
school; or I need a bridge so the kids can go from
the village to the school--he will tell you, well,
I build schools, but I can't build bridges.
Well, then, how do you want us to manage?
How do you want us to have an education that can
reach out or objectives if everybody says, well, I
can only do this--see somebody else for the rest.
This is not the way to work. Of course,
let's mobilize resources, but in a coordinated
framework, as I said.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, I am convinced that
the consensus that we see here is a consensus to
strengthen statistics at a national level so that
when we talk about progress, we really know what we
are talking about, because very often the
statistics do not work. Therefore, we are really
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 155 wondering if the figures correspond to reality.
These are the few elements that I wanted
to propose, and excuse me for having spoken French,
obliging you to wear these helmets.
Thank you very much.
MR. RITZEN [INTERPRETED FROM FRENCH]
Thank you, Mr. Zongo, especially for having
underlined the necessity for having a common
framework and'also for having deeper coordination.
I would like to invite Mr. Klasen from
Germany to speak now.
REPRESENTATIVE OF GERMANY [Mr. Klasen] I
will switch back to English, if you will allow me.
My name is Stefan Klasen, and I was asked
to represent the German Ministry of Development Cooperation.
I just want to make three quick points.
One is on the role of the International Development
Goals, and I think some have mentioned it, but I
think there is still a little bit of lack of
clarity.
I think the main role as far as I can see
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S,E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 156 it is to gain political support for the development
enterprise and globalized resources. In that
sense, for example, in Germany, I think the
Millennium Summit has been extremely important
because at that Summit, the Prime Minister declared
that he will present a strategy that will
comprehensively address the International
Development Goals, and the strategy will be
launched next month. That is something that would
not have happened without the Millennium Summit,
because then, there would only have been perhaps a
strategy from the Ministry of Development
Cooperation but not one that goes across all of
government and leads to the policy creation that is
so critically necessary to move on this.
So I think that that is one important
thing, to get political support within government
and get it from the top so that strategies are
developed and implemented.
The second thing is that I think it is
also important to hold the First World and the
multilateral community accountable to something. I
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202 546-6666 ah 157 think that that is another important aim. At the
same time, clearly, when it comes from this global
level to the national level, they have to be
operationalized. So I think that at the national
level, another process that is informed from
International Development Goals but is not equal to
the International Development Goals has to take
place and has to be driven by the countries and
supported by multilateral organizations and donors,
but how to operationalize those global goals into
what is feasible, possible, and measurable at the
national level. I think we have not talked enough
about how this translation of the global goals to
national goals can take place, and that is
certainly something that one might want to focus
the discussion on later on. So there is the whole
issue of operationalizing.
The second point I wanted to make is that
there is some tension that Sven Sandstrom has
mentioned at the global level in terms of
priorities. There are several ways that one can
reduce poverty. One is to focus all efforts on
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 158 India and China and basically say that if you
really succeed there, then we will have reached our
global goals, because that is where most of the
people are and also most of the poor people are,
and therefore, if they have massive reductions in
poverty and massive expansions in education, we
will have done well on some of the goals,
obviously, not all of them.
On the other hand, there are some
countries where it will be easier, and there are
some countries where it will be harder to achieve
those goals.
Now, in effect, this means that hard
choices will have to be made, and it is not clear
enough yet where the international and the
multilateral institutions stand on these hard
choices of saying are we going to concentrate on
the cases where it is going to be difficult, are we
going to concentrate on the cases where we think
there has been a lot of progress, and we want to
support that progress, or are we going to
concentrate on the cases where the most poor people
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 159 are. Those are some difficult issues and choices,
and maybe it is important to hear something about
what the thinking is on those difficult choices.
The last point I want to make is on this
nutrition discussion which has been going on, and I
now I am really speaking more as an academic than a
representative of the government.
While it is extremely important to have
nutrition as part of the goals, unfortunately, at
the moment, we don't have a commonly-agreed
standard of easily measurable and monitorable
goals. We have an FAO approach to measuring under-
nutrition; we have a UNICEF/WHO approach to
measuring under-nutrition, which is focused on
anthropometrics of children, both of which are
subject to considerable criticism, and do not yield
the same answers--in fact, they yield very
different answers on where under-nutrition is
worst. Therefore, I think it is quite difficult to
incorporate such a goal at this stage before one
has not resolved those issues.
So I think that yes, in principle, it is
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 160 very important; in practice, I think there is a
serious issue here which does not exist to the same
extent, for example, with enrollments or with the
other goals. So I think I would support that at
the moment it not be included until these kinds of
issues have been resolved.
Thank you.
MR. RITZEN: Thank you very much.
We are now reaching the time when we
should go and have lunch. I think people have been
looking forward to having a break, which also means
that I really apologize to the speakers that they
are not now in a position to bring their
reflections to the table. But there will be ample
room for bringing feedback from this discussion to
the table in the sharing of country experiences and
in general sharing experiences.
I think it is impossible to come to a
conclusion, but one of the points which was brought
up I think very much in this discussion was the
point of Mr. Enweze--let's start to become more and
more concrete in terms of processes and in terms of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 161 content with respect to follow-up.
I think one point which was very strongly
stressed was, on the one hand, that the country
will definitely be the unit where there is room for
maneuver. That is where governments can do things,
and governments are looking forward to working on
the International Development Goals in this
international compact.
At the same time, it will be very
important to move ahead in a broader world
framework, and there, the need for developing that
framework is very important.
One of the specific points on which I
wouldn't want to come to a conclusion but which I
would very much want to suggest is that with
respect to the statistics, there seems to be a
strong need for collaboration so that not all
parties go on with their own ways of measurement.
Also, I think this does not do justice to the need
to be frugal and to use our scarce resources well.
There, I think that the so-called Paris 21, the
partnership in statistics for development in the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 162 21st century, might be a useful vehicle. That
partnership has already taken on some of the tasks,
but I think it might be worthwhile to see whether
we could come to some understanding among the
partners here, that we also would entrust them on a
sharp time line, and maybe also with different
steps, to come up with a strong statistical
framework on which there is a general agreement and
that we will no longer have diverging ways in the
collection of statistics but also ways which very
much converge.
That would be my message for lunch first,
but I realize that during lunch, we will have the
privilege of a presentation by Mr. Rehman Sobhan,
and I will introduce him when we have lunch.
Thank you so much.
MR. SWANSON: Before you get up, just some
housekeeping announcements.
Lunch will be in the Bank's East Dining
Room on the MC-1 level. You can get it to it from
this elevator bank outside.
I must apologize to many of my colleagues
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 163 from the Bank who have joined us here for the
discussion this morning. We are only able to offer
lunch to our visitors and to the Bank staff who
have been designated as speakers or chairs or
participants in the meeting. The rest of you will
have the chance to recover on your own. I do apologize.
We would like everybody to be back here
promptly at 2:00, and Shanta Devarajan at that
point will give us our charge for the ensuing
discussion this afternoon, when we will break up
into three groups.
So we'll meet back here at 2:00 in order
to do that, and if we can make it sharply at 2:00,
we'll get the afternoon off on schedule.
Thanks very much.
MR. RITZEN: And a big hand for the
speakers, the discussants, and all those who
contributed.
[Applause.]
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 164 AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. RITZEN: Friends and colleagues,
welcome to this afternoon session.
I would now very much like to move
directly to Shant a Devarajan and ask him to give us
introduction for the breakout groups.
MR. DEVARAJAN: Thanks very much, Jo.
As Jo mentioned, we start now with the
breakout groups. I was a little concerned earlier,
given all the consensus and solidarity that we have
had so far on the International Development Goals,
whether it was a good idea to break out into
smaller groups; but then we learned from Ian
Kinniburgh this morning that even the world leaders
had to break out into three or four groups in order
to reach the Millennium Goals. So I think building
on their success, we can have a very productive
exchange in our smaller groups.
Let me just say a few things about the
theme. I think this is in many ways where the
rubber hits the road. We have had a very good
discussion about the International Development
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 165 Goals t their rationale t if you like t and some of
the consequences t but the real question is how are
we going to get therei what is the process or the
relationship between public action and progress
toward the International Development Goals.
That is what I hope you will be discussing
in your breakout groups this afternoon. In
particular as the questions you laid out mentioned t we would like you to discuss two aspects of the
IDGs. One is what are appropriate intermediate
indicators--this is another theme which came up
several times already this morningi and secondlYt
given those intermediate indicators t what do we
know about public action and those intermediate
indicators.
By "public action t " again, I want to emphasize and echo the theme that Emmanuel
Tumusiime mentioned earlier this morning. We should
be careful not to wrongly infer that public action
means spending more money. The hard budget
constraint is with us and will be with us forever.
So the question about public action has to be at
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 166 least about prioritization, about different inputs
that can go into achieving the International
Development Goals.
A second theme about public action that
has been echoed by several people this morning is
the whole role of institutions and the incentives
for the efficient delivery of public services. A
lot of the International Development Goals have to
do with l for any given amount of money allocated
toward l say, health care or education , how do you
get productive health and education outcomes at the
other end.
So keeping in mind the hard budget
constraint , I hope that we will be able to discuss
and exchange ideas on both the prioriti~ation of
expenditures and other public actions as well as
the improvement of service delivery.
Let me add a third theme that has come up
in the discussion this morning, and we didn't plan
on it in this write-up, and that is that people
have been talking about how to capitalize on this
political consensus that has emerged around the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, 8.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 {2021 546-6666 ah 167 International Development Goals. And I think that
to some extent, that consensus is pointing in the
direction of how to mobilize more resources for
foreign aid. But another aspect of that is how to
mobilize more resources and more action toward the
acquisition of knowledge.
I think we all know that the binding
constraint in development has often been knowledge l
knowledge about what processes work and what
processes do not work. We might have--and many of
us have been struggling to make inroads in that
acquisition process--we might have the possibility
here l given this unprecedented consensus l to also be able to build a momentum for a movement to
acquire the knowledge, exchange the knowledge, make
the knowledge accessible for improving the outcomes
of public action. So that is something else to
think about as we proceed.
Let me now finally say some things about
the logistics. We will be split up into three
sessions l and againl I want to remind everybody
that the goals are all interdependent, so this
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 168 doesn't mean we think that we can cleanly separate
the goals into three groups, but just like the
world leaders, we have to break people up into
groups.
The three sessions will cover poverty,
which is essentially the first goal; the second
will be concerned with education and health, which
are goals 2 through 6; and the third one will cover
environment.
Let me now introduce my colleagues who
will act as chairs, resource persons, and
rapporteurs for the three sessions.
The session on poverty will be chaired by
Jan Vandemoortele from UNICEF, and the resource
persons will be Martin Ravallion on my right and
Karen Mason. Karen will also act as the
rapporteur.
The session on education and health will
be chaired by Paul Van Look, from WHO; and the
resource persons will include Alex Preker, Ruth
Kagia, and Beth King.
And finally, the environmental
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 169 sustainability session will be chaired by
Kristalina Georgieva, and Kirk Hamilton learned
just 60 seconds ago that he will act as the
rapporteur, and I am very grateful for that quick
response.
Then, one important announcement is that
there will be coffee available in each of the
rooms, so you don't have to take a coffee break,
but you can go out and get your coffee and come
back in.
Whatever you do, make sure that you are
back here at 4:30, when we are going to present to
the plenary the main findings of the three
sessions.
Let me announce the rooms for the three
sessions. Poverty will be on this floor in MC-13-
130. Education and health will be in MC-4-W1S0i
and environment will be in MC-6-W1S0.
You can go to whichever session you want,
and we hope you will find it fruitful, and we'll
see you back here at 4:30.
[At 2:16 p.m., the plenary recessed into
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 170 parallel sessions and reconvened at 4:45 p.m. in
Session III.]
MR. DORYAN: Your attention, please. I
hope that you can sit down and we can resume this
Session III. We will divide this session into
three parts.
First, my name is Eduardo Doryan, and I am
Vice President for Human Development here at tee
Bank.
We are going to divide the session into
three very concrete parts. First, we will listen
to the three rapporteurs from the three groups that
have been discussing over the last couple of hours.
As the second part, we will listen to the
two discussants who are with us this afternoon.
And the third part will be an open
discussion where we are going to entertain short
additions, value-adding comments.
So let me proceed immediately to hear from
the three groups and their rapporteurs.
The rapporteur for the first group, which
is related to poverty, is Karen Mason.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 171 You have the floor, and please be as
short, sharp, and to-the-point as possible.
MS. MASON: Always--and then I will invite
other members of this group if they want to add
anything.
We debated at some length about whether
the 21 indicators that have been developed are
adequate or whether there should be country-
specific indicators, and there were very strong
statements made on both sides.
There was an attempt to reconcile them by
saying that in terms of international or global
tracking and reporting, the 21 indicators are
adequate, and we should not add to them, but as
poverty specialists, we might want to do research
on and talk about other indicators.
There was also an expression that it
really is up to the recipient countries to
determine if these are an adequate set or not, and
if they want to propose others, they should. But I
would say that that debate went on without really
being resolved.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 172 There was a second debate that was
originally phrased as should there be pro-poor
growth as opposed to steps to reduce inequality in
society. The two main proponents of these two
positions then met privately after the group
disbanded for coffee and rephrased their argument
as really should we invest assets in the poor or
give assets to the poor, was the pro-poor growth
position, as opposed to shifting assets from the
wealthy to the poor. And the proponent of that
second point of view was really asking is it
adequate to simply invest assets in the poor, or do
we also need to shift them, and I think that there
is still a disagreement between them as to which
position is accurate.
The one issue where I think there was some
consensus was that these 21 indicators are much
more meaningful if there is disaggregation of them,
because poverty is not an average in a country. We
know that women experience poverty more than men,
and we know that ethnic minorities tend to
experience more. In many countries, there are
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 173 geographic regions that are particularly subject to
poverty. In many countries, the rural population
is poorer than the urban; some, vice versa. In any
case, I think there was some sense that these
indicators are more meaningful and more useful if
they are disaggregated, and there was a bit of
discussion about how we probably need better data,
at least for gender disaggregation, and perhaps for
other forms of disaggregation as well.
That was the gist of our discussion.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
I like those three issues, which are very
clear; they obviously open a set of further
comments later on.
Let me now call on Alex Preker to report
on the group that discussed education and health.
MR. PREKER: Thank you, Eduardo.
We had a very lively discussion around the
issues related to health and education, and I will
summarize those in four categories--discussion
related to tee goals themselves, household
contribution to those goals, action in terms of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 54~-6666 ah 174 systems and also system inputs, and then the
policies available to governments. Those were the
four categories that we went through.
I think, like Karen, there was a very
strong feeling that we realize that the goals and
the indicators are blunt aggregate indicators of
what we are really trying to achieve and that we
had to be careful that we didn't overstate what
those indicators meant and that those indicators
captured everything that we were trying to achieve.
So there was a caution about looking at
what was behind the indicators, and the metaphor
was used of trees that have branches that flap in
the wind--it is not the flapping branches that
cause the wind, but the wind that causis the
flapping of the branches--and that we have to be
very careful as we are looking at these goals. The
indicators are an indication of the underlying
goals that we are trying to achieve; it is not the
indicators themselves that we really ought to be
excessively focused on. I think that was a nice
little metaphor that captured that.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 175 There was also a strong feeling that
households play a very important role and that
households are quite different across different
contexts. So, like in the poverty group, there was
a strong feeling that the goals which are aggregate
goals don't tell the full story in terms of
regional differences, income differences. And
particularly there was a strong emphasis that they
don't capture completely the gender differences
among various groups.
In terms of actions, there was a very
strong feeling that the actions needed to achieve
these goals are very much multi sectoral actions and
that great caution should be exercised that one
does not look too narrowly at the proximal
determinants of any particular goals, because if
you look too closely at the partial determinants,
you will probably miss some of the important
intersectoral synergies and also some of the
broader determinants of any individual goals.
So there is a very strong feeling that one
should look at the big picture intersectorally
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 176 feeding into the goals. In that sense, several
people emphasized also the importance of financing.
An example was given that the international
community has had goals before, such as health for
all goals and education for all goals, and several
people mentioned why did those goals fail in the
past, and let's not repeat that, but let's look at
what the failure was and then, as we move forward
on the goals that are put on the table now, let's
try to move forward with that agenda.
Finally in terms of the policy levers,
there was quite a lively discussion around what
types of policies are available to governments,
ranging from purely information to more direct
action in terms of regulations, contracts, subsidy
types of things to actual production of some
services.
We didn't actually get into a very
detailed discussion on that, but tee preliminary
feeling was that there probably wasn't a silver
bullet there, but that a range of instruments were
needed and that governments may be better at some
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 177 of those instruments than others.
There was quite a lot of discussion around
government failure and international donor
community failure and what could be done about that
and why was it that governments in the past who may
have had access to known information on how to
improve health and education had not been able to
exercise that and, likewise, why the international
community had not been able to do that. I think
there was a feeling that it was time to move away
from donor to client relationship and start looking
at partnerships and local ownership.
That covers the four topics, and now I
will just touch on three other quick issues that we
dealt with, which were the process of arriving at
the goals, the context in which it takes place, and
the actors or the people involved.
I think there was a very strong feeling
that in terms of the process, the political economy
has probably been down played in the past, probably
at the demise of countries and also the
international community, and that much more
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 178 emphasis should be put on the political economy
dimension in the future, particularly the issue of
fully recognizing that there are in any of the
processes both winners and losers, and if too many
losers are on the side of people who vote for
governments or politicians, you are very unlikely
to be successful in those kinds of reforms.
On the context side, there was a strong
feeling once again that silver bullets are probably
not going to work and that it is very important to
look at the local country context and adapt the
policies that we are talking about to local
context, not just at the national level, but also
at the subnational level, and for particular groups
like, for instance, gender differences and
subregional differences.
The final point was really to emphasize
that it is people who are going to make all of this
work, so at least in health and education, the
providers of health care and the providers of
education, the educators, if you leave those out,
it is unlikely that you are going to succeed, at
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 179 least with the health and education goals, and that
we really must in the future put much more emphasis
on the human dimension of these reforms.
Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you, Alex.
The third group related to environmental
sustainability, and Stephen Browne will report on
the results of that group.
MR. BROWNE: Thank you very much.
As an example of the cross-functionality
of this process, I had intended to be in the income
poverty group; not finding a chair there, I found
myself on the sixth floor, where I was put at the
end of the table to chair this rather more compact
group, which comprised a few bilaterals, a country,
seven people from 19th Street and six from the UN.
So it wasn't unrepresentative.
It was an interesting discussion, and I
think we made quite a lot of progress. I would
like to summarize our discussions under three
headings--the nature of the environment indicator
and its monitoring; second, we had an interesting
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 180 discussion on the nexus between national
sustainable development strategies and poverty
reduction strategies; and third, a kind of coda on
why we may be doing everything backward.
Let me start with the indicator itself.
First of all, I think it is recognized that
sustainable development is fundamental to all of
these indicators, and it is not a concern that is
confined only to Target Number 7.
But IDT 7 is rather unique in at least
three ways. It is a nondiscretionary target--it is
sort of an on-off target, although it has a kind of
quality element. In other words, you either have
or you have not achieved the drafting of a national
environment strategy, but you need to examine
whether it is effective.
Number two, it is unique because it does
not talk about human development or human well-
being as such. It is a target at one removed.
And thirdly, notwithstanding that,
environment is still fundamental and can find its
way, at least indirectly, into other indicators, in
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 181 particular health.
When it comes to the monitoring of this
target, there isn't a great deal to be done as far
as the IDTs are concerned, but there was a
discussion on the six components out of the 21
indicators that make up that overall target. And
the feeling was, I think, that it should be left to
the individual country to determine which of those
sub-indicators or those six indicators should be
utilized for meeting the goal.
I have to say also on monitoring that the
ongoing process of follow-up to the Millennium
Declaration will imply a slightly different
approach when it comes to environment-related
targets, because the MDGs, as I like to call them,
do have certain differences. The MDG does not have
the 7th IDT goal at all, but it does include access
to safe water explicitly, and it has a set of
different environment goals in a different part of
the Declaration which the UN will inevitably be
monitoring in its follow-up.
I commend to the group, and I commend to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 182 this meeting a quick glimpse at the Tanzania report
to see how that first of many country reports on
the monitoring of the targets this problem was
tackled.
The second area was a discussion about the
nexus between the national sustainable development
strategies and the PRSPs--at least, that was how it
was originally couched. I think there is a
recognition that the rather hasty process, the
inevitably hasty process, by which the Interim and
now increasingly the full PRSPs have been drafted
has left out of account some of the environmental
concerns.
But it was also pointed out that PRSPs,
which have been done in something over 30 countries
and I think are intended for about 70, will still
not be anything like the totality of the developing
countries. And really, the discussion came to a
conclusion that where it is necessary to influence
the development agenda, national strategies or
national agendas on sustainable development may
still be necessary. But in an ideal state, whether
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 183 we are talking about high-, medium- or low-income
countries, what is required is a comprehensive
development framework or strategy which takes into
account sufficiently poverty aspects, sustainable
development aspects, gender aspects, and all other
cross-cutting issues.
Finally, a discussion which I initiated by
stepping out of my chairing role but which I think
is worth mentioning because it found sympathy with
a couple of other participants, at least, is my vie
that I think we may have gotten everything the
wrong way around. We are so concerned with the
quality of the document and the content of the
strategy and what it actually has to say--I think
that probably this is an opportunity, when we are
concentrating for two days' on these IDTs or MDGs,
to remind ourselves that probably the right way to
go about the eradication of poverty is to
concentrate country by country and target by target
on the status of those human development indicators
and determine what it is that that country and its
development partners need to do in terms of
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 184 creating a policy environment, providing the
resources, facilitating trade, aid, alleviating
debt, and so on, to meet those targets.
If countries could come together with
their development partners around an indicator-
related strategy, I think this would be the right
way forward.
Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
I think we have more than enough material
for our two discussants to start their
presentations.
First, it is a pleasure for me to
introduce Rachid Benmokhtar. He has training as an
engineer and also in business administration. He
was the Minister for Education in the Kingdom of
Morocco and now he is actually a university
president and also an advisor to the Council of the
World Bank Institute.
You have the floor.
MR. BENMOKHTAR: Thank you.
I will try to share with you some personal
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 185 remarks regarding this session. I will start by
saying that setting international goals is
something that is very important in my view.
Why? Because perhaps for the first time,
we are creating some kind of hope among people, and
that is very important. And of course, when
setting goals, we have to try to succeed if these
people who are hoping that something will change
will find, finally, that not only the government
but also the international community is helping to
achieve these goals.
The question is how to meet the goals. We
discuss a lot about them; we try to share
experience. I would personally say that something
which is very important is how to create leadership
in developing countries, leadership which will
support the ideals of the IDGs. That is very
important.
If we don't create leadership, it means
that it will be very difficult to implement any
change in the future.
When speaking about leadership, I think
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2~02 (202) 546-6666 ah 186 that this leadership will be at the national level
as well as at the local level--within the
government, with the local government, but also
within NGOs. That is the first step to be
successful.
Second, we have to train coachesi we have
to train persons at the grassroots level who will
be able on a daily basis to push the population
toward these goals. That is very important.
Teachers and nurses may perhaps be good resource
persons, but they need to be trained seriously, of
course, and accurately.
Why? Because first, in almost all
countries, you can find a school, but you don't
find any government office. That means' that it is
a part of government service which is present in
most countries. Teachers are involved with
children, and they may be involved also with the
parents, so it is important to have them as leaders
at the grassroots level, but also to really train
them as coaches. That would be something very
interesting.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202) 54 -66 ah 187 The other remark that I have is how to
make policies and resources devoted to these goals
sustainable. That is something which is very
important. We know that very often, politics
change, and as soon as a new minister comes, he has
new politics, and generally, he thinks that the
former minister was wrong. What does that mean?
It means that if there is not a global project that
is a country project, in fact, decided for a long
period and approved at the highest level and by the
parliament, then, every change of government will
of course jeopardize the projects. That is very
important. It is more important for the countries
that are experiencing democracy, because a change
means that people have not yet adapted to the rules
of democracy.
It also means that people who want to be
elected have, of course, to fulfill some of their
electors' demands, and elector demands do not
always fit with the objectives of development.
That is also something which is very important.
The question for developing countries is--
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.B. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 188 is a democratic policy something that will help, or
is it something that in fact will create more
conservatism among politicians. That is the right
question to ask. I am not sure that the answer is
that democracy will foster the implementation of
these goals. Perhaps it will act in the reverse
and create more conservatism.
The other issue that appears to me very
important is the issue of environment, and here,
there is a lot of concern in any developing
country, because poverty in fact--and perhaps also
when a government is dealing with a lot of issues--
appears as a problem that is a developed world
problem or issue, and not a developing country
issue. Of course, this is not true.
How to react to that, how to create a kind
of consensus about the environment--I think that
education perhaps may help. This means that
environment has to be a part of education and also
part of the local economy. If we involve the local
population in environment projects, I think they
will understand and will have an interesting in
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 189 protecting the environment.
Finally, I will say a few words about
global knowledge for development. I think that is
also an issue which is very, very important. The
problem is more than educating people--it is
education and learning and learning globally. That
is true for the high education graduates, but it is
also true for basic education students as well. If
the developing countries do not have global
knowledge, that means that they will stay far away
from all these objectives. That is why I think the
World Bank must work harder on the global knowledge
development program which I am sure will help a lot
to implement all of these goals.
Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you very much for your
comments. I am sure they will trigger a lot of
discussion later on.
Our second discussant is Sanjeev Gupta,
who is in part responsible for "The Better World
for All," which he worked on last year and probably
for a long time before. In his present position as
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 190 Chief of the Expenditure Policy Division of the
International Monetary Fund Fiscal Affairs
Department, he has been looking at the nexus
between sustainable fiscal spending and improvement
in social indicators, including the IDGs.
You have the floor.
MR. GUPTA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The points that were summarized by the
three groups, one cannot disagree with, so I
thought I would raise some additional issues to
facilitate discussion.
First, I attended the meeting of one of
the groups, on education and health, and there was
some discussion about raising spending in these
sectors. The point I want to make is that simply
allocating resources to these programs will not
produce the desired impact on the International
Development Goals. And I am not talking
necessarily in terms of the efficiency
considerations which were discussed in that group.
It is important that the budgetary processes ensure
that the public resources are directed to poverty-
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 191 reducing programs. This tracking of poverty
spending is in addition to ensuring the effective
use of public resources in terms of their pro-poor
incidence.
The issue of tracking is also quite
relevant since some of the groups talked about a
shift toward budgetary support for social programs
from donors. What that requires is that there be
sufficient safeguards in the budgetary process to
ensure that the money reaches the poor and is used
for the intended purposes.
What does tracking entail here? It means
that poverty-reducing programs identified in the
context of each country's poverty-reducing strategy
will need to be appropriately classified in the
budget, and spending on these programs monitored
during budgetary discussion.
The tracking is actually complicated by
the fact that different kinds of public spending
impact on health and education-related indicators.
This issue was highlighted in the session on
education and health.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 192 Therefore, what is poverty-reducing will
need to be determined on a country-by-country
basis. This then raises the question as to what
should the budget be monitoring. Should it be
monitoring just social sector spending, or the
entire poverty-reducing programs? The answer is
that the budget will need to monitor all poverty-
reducing programs because of the fungibility issue,
especially if some of the programs are being
financed by foreign donors, because if there is an
increase in the level of education and health
spending which is funded by donors, there can be a
corresponding reduction in education and health
spending by the countries themselves without any
additionality of spending in the budget.
However, in many countries, tracking of
poverty-related spending may not be feasible, as I
said earlier, within the current budget systems.
This is reflected in the inability of the budgets
to appropriately classify and distinguish poverty-
reducing programs. Furthermore, the accounting and
audit systems are quite poor in generating
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 193 comprehensive and timely information for monitoring
progress toward the International Development
Goals, at least in the near term.
The implication is that concerted efforts
will be required by countries themselves and by
donors to strengthen the public expenditure
management capacity in the developing countries.
The second point that I thought I would
raise is the issue of costing public expenditure
programs. Some of the issues that were discussed
in the education and health sector discussion
included the linkages between public spending and
education and health outcomes. The PRSP process is
expected to provide important insights in this
regard.
At the same time, the PRSP process should
help in costing different education, health care,
and other poverty-reducing programs to facilitate
an assessment of tradeoffs between different public
programs and the integration into the fiscal
framework.
If one looks at the PRSPs, I should note
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 194 that the costing of the poverty-reducing programs
is rather uneven.
The third and final point that I would
like to raise is the issue of data, which was
discussed in the education and health group. Here, I thought I would present some evidence from the
experience with the PRSPs that have been produced
so far.
As you were told a few minutes ago, there
are some 30 full-fledged and Interim PRSPs.
Actually, there are only 4 full-fledged PRSPSi the
rest are Interim PRSPs.
What one finds is that in nearly one-third
of the 30 PRSPs, it is noted that a considerable
amount of work needs to be done to collect and
analyze information on social indicators before the
countries can lay down concrete, monitorable
indicators to measure progress against the
International Development Goals.
These PRSPs therefore provide virtually
no, or in some cases, very limited, information on
existing levels of social indicators. And
,MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 195 therefore, it is an indication of the amount of
work that needs to be done in terms of building
capacity of these countries. At least for the
countries which are going to be coming up with
full-fledged PRSPs, some kinds of goals would have
to be established there, of course, driven by the
countries themselves, so that progress in those
could be monitored.
With those comments, I thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
I think we have a full plate in order to
launch the discussion, because besides the issues
of the goals per se, there has been a lot about the
political economy, the process, the context, the
tracking of data. So I think we can open the
discussion, but let us remember at least two basic
rules of tee game--at this session, we are trying
to answer a set of questions which were outlined,
and I think the groups did a good job in this
direction; and second, on the interventions, let's
try to make them short, lively, and addressing some
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 196 of these issues and posing any divergent position
in order to make the most of the contributions and
add the most value to the discussion.
So let's open the floor for comments that
will add to each of the groups or to the general
framework that our discussants put forward just a
minute ago.
Who would like to start?
[Pause. ]
MR. DORYAN: Good. We can tell the world
that we have complete accord.
Yes, please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF UGANDA [Mr. Tumusiime-
Mutebi Ie] : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to comment on one point which
was made by the IMF representative and really to
generalize it. He said that the issue as discussed
was whether to monitor social spending or monitor
all poverty-reducing programs, and he correctly
pointed out that because of the fungibility issue,
we need to reduce all poverty-reducing programs.
I want to go beyond that and say that it
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 197 is unrealistic to expect most of these countries to
straight-away prioritize their expenditures in such
a way that the majority of government resources
actually go to poverty reduction, the majority of
domestically-raised resources actually go to
poverty reduction.
If that is the case, it becomes important
not to track only poverty-reducing programs but to
track the entire budget, because there is no
mechanism for addressing fungibility other than
discussing the priorities across the entire
spectrum, both locally-funded and donor-funded.
This is extremely important.
That is why it is extremely important to
situate the entire development program within a
coherent and consistent fiscal framework.
Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Do you want to comment at
this point? I think that that is a point which
should be present with us for the rest of the
session.
Yes, please.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 198 REPRESENTATIVE OF BURKINA FASO [Mr. Tongo]
(Interpreted from French) : Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
I have two things to say. First of all, I
would like to reply to what the representative of
Uganda just said. It is the problem that we have
had in the three breakouts, because if you have a
breakout called "poverty" and then a subgroup
working on health and education and another one
working on environment, this gives us a perspective
where we do not feel that there is integration of
all this.
What is poverty? Poverty is education,
poverty is environment, poverty is health. We
should have a global approach, first of all.
sectorally, what can we do? For me,
poverty is what I wrote in the paper I distributed-
-fighting against poverty is to look for human
security. What is human security for a man? HUman security is economic security, so that the person
has a job, can pay for his own way, go to school.
Invest in the human being. The first group said
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 199 that. We have to invest in the human being.
Security is also food security. We have
to do so that a man can eat and have drinking
water. Security is also health security, but it is
also in the environment.
If you take all of these aspects--somebody
who has a job, who has a little bit of money, but
who is sick, who has no health center, could die
with a lot of money under his mattress. Is this
person poor? Of course he is poor. He has money,
but he is poor, because he cannot take care of
himself--he has no health care. Health is part of
poverty.
If somebody wants to take care of his
needs, and he has to destroy nature to do that, is
he creating conditions so that the next generations
can feed themselves? Of course not.
So you see, the environment is included in
any struggle against poverty.
Finally, the last security is political
and individual security. We have to see the
political aspects of poverty. What do I mean by
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 200 the political aspects? Well, it comes to the fact
that I, a small citizen, as our friend from
Bangladesh said, participate; I am involved. But
how can I feel like I participate if I live in a
remote area, and I am very poor? I have to know
that I have a voice; that the voiceless have a
voice.
So the way you divided the different
sessions, we think that poverty is the main thing,
and the rest are sub-elements, really.
The second observation that I want to make
which is quite essential is that we need to have a
global approach. A global approach must be not
only in the definition of policies but in the way
that it is applied. We cannot talk about inner
resources that will finance such-and-such aspect,
or external resources, either. More and more, when
we want to strengthen capacity, when we want to
fight poverty, we must insist on budget
transparency so that more and more, projects are
useful because--of course, each donor comes here
and does something and has a nice inauguration and
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 201 TV cameras following him, filming him cutting
ribbons--that doesn't really matter. What matters
is that all the different aids and supports should
be within a framework where we no longer talk about
the efficiency of external aid, but we should talk
about the efficiency of public expenditures--that
is to say, the funds that come from national
resources.
Our friend from the IMF mentioned a very
important point, and I will stop on that. He
mentioned the fact that the poor should have access
to essential services, and what should we do so
that the state budget, the fiscal instrument,
should be an instrument of equity. We have a real
problem with equity. Sometimes you have a health
center, but when the poor go to the health center,
they are asked to pay, and they cannot pay. The
supplies are there, but they do not have access.
Sometimes access demands a fiscal
instrument which absent causes problems. When we
talk about our partners, sometimes they do not
always understand; they always ask for cost
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 202 recovery, and people should pay taxes. But there
is a question of access linked to all that.
So what our friend from the IMF said is
very important. It is also an approach of income
redistribution. If the poor person goes to a
health care center and is asked to pay 100 francs
and, thanks to a fiscal instrument, he is only
asked to pay 25 francs, then, all of a sudden, he
has access to a basic service.
These are the comments that I wanted to
make so that we do not lose sight of the global
aspects of poverty. You cannot have poverty
indicators that would exclude health, that would
exclude education, that would exclude environment.
So we have a global approach, and we should really
push our countries, push developing countries, to
all have this global approach, and the global
approach must be supported by sectoral approaches.
The goals must be the ones that we have also in the
global sector.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003 2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 203 I think the issue of systemic relationship
among the goals on the one hand with the fiscal
policy on the other should be very much at the
forefront of our discussion.
Yes?
MR. SWANSON: I will just take a moment to
reflect on a couple of things that were said this
morning and bring us back to the specific
development goals.
I was particularly struck by Denise
Lievesley's quick account of the urgency of
beginning to move toward these goals. If you
remember, she look at the goal of universal primary
education by 2015 and said we have to then meet the
needs of the cohort that is going to be in school
in 2015, which means we need to work backward to I
think she said 2007. If we are going to do that,
we need to work backward to the cohort of teachers
who are going to teach the students who are going
to be in school whom we are going to count toward
that goal in 2015. And that means we need to be
starting now.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 204 It seems to me that that is a very
dramatic use of these indicators to tell us that
there is a very urgent need for us to form a
coherent plan to address that need--not in
isolation, definitely not in isolation, because
education is so central to everything that we
propose to do here in health and in the environment
and in income poverty reduction--but we certainly
need to focus on the outcomes of some of these
indicators.
I think you could make similar cases for
all the other indicators here. You could talk
about, for example, the goal of reducing poverty by
half. In many countries, we won't succeed in doing
that. Why? Because we won't have adequate
investment in physical capital and in human capital
in train by the time it would begin to payoff in
the form of increased income and consumption, and
therefore, reduction in income poverty by 2015.
So I want to redirect this group back from
these more abstract policy issues of how we knit
things into PRSPs and how we undertake these fiscal
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 205 reform issues, to perhaps more in the line of
Stephen Browne's comment at the end, and say that
we do know that there are certain goals that we
would like to achieve. We began the morning by
saying we have a broad consensus on that. Are we
paying adequate attention in our discussions r~ght
now to the steps we all need to take, beginning
urgently, immediately, in order to ensure that we
have a chance of meeting them by 2015?
MR. DORYAN: Thanks, Eric.
Yes, Germany.
REPRESENTATIVE OF GERMANY [Mr. Klasen]:
My name is Stefan Klasen, and I am representing the
German Ministry of Development Cooperation.
I think there is a little bit of an
unclarity that we are still working on that came
through in various comments, which is the
relationship, for example, between the
International Development Goals and the PRSPs. I
think we should really keep the two quite sep?rate
in some sense--the International Development Goals
are overarching goals of the international
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 206 community to adopt. What is happening at the
national level is informed by the International
Development Goals, should be informed by the
International Development Goals, but it is each
country setting its own goals with the capacity and
the data and the statistics available at its
disposal, and that happens as part of the PRSP
process. So I don't think in a sense what should
happen is that basically, one tries to translate
the International Development Goals into national
statistics or something, and ask can we measure
these things at a national level, but basically,
just to say these are goals at the global level,
and each country in the PRSP process then makes
them their own, takes them as a guideline, and
tries to fill them with life, with more data, more
disaggregated, better data, or maybe worse data,
because they don't have data on certain things,
rather than just trying to take them and make them
the focus of the PRSP process.
So I would still see in a sense that the
country has to have total primacy of the PRSP
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6666 ah 207 process, not only to be informed by the
International Development Goals.
One of the things that we have not talked
about enough is the question of whether the
International Development Goals should be used to,
for example, be very clear about allocation of
funding across countries, for example, by
bilaterals or multilateral institutions, or
allocation of funding across sectors by bilateral
and multilateral institutions.
We had in our poverty debate the
contribution from Sri Lanka which said if it now
turns out that all poverty, the one dollar a day,
as the World Bank has reported, has fallen below 10
percent/ does this mean we will then be cut off
from support because we are no longer a high-
priority country--that is an unresolved question.
What exactly is supposed to happen? Are they
supposed to inform country allocations, which
currently, as we have learned from the "Assessing
Aid" work, are certainly not related to poverty
across the world/ or not very closely related to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 208 poverty across the world -certainly bilateral
funding is not, and neither is sectoral funding
closely related to poverty--for example, funding
for agriculture and rural development is quite low
compared to other things. I think maybe one should
move the discussion a little bit also more in that
direction, whether the International Development
Goals can really be used to think about regional
and sectoral allocation of funds, and then, there
are a lot of sensitive issues that one needs to
deal with, including data issues, measurement
issues, and so on.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
Yes, please.
MR. TUMUSIIME [UGANDA]: I don't know
whether I misunderstand my German colleague, but if
I understand him, we are heading for trouble.
I think everybody here has said that there
has been consensus over what development enterprise
is about, and that consensus is broadly
encapsulated in the International Development
Goals. If that is true, then what he is saying is
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 209 absolutely subversive, because he is saying that if
we leave these countries to determine their own
objectives, and if we ignore the International
Development Goals, for the sake of argument--the
whole point is that we should develop a consensus
by both developing countries and developed
countries around these goals, and then we move
forward and ask what are the policies and programs
that are required to make everyone comfortable that
progress is being made toward these objectives.
Once we have agreed that this and that is what is
required to be done to move toward the objectives,
aid should increasingly be given to these
countries, untied, to support the programs that
have been agreed jointly to deliver those
objectives.
That is where we should be moving--not
shying away from getting everybody around the table
to agree to a partnership. Otherwise, there will
be no partnerships, and we shall come back saying,
"This is my sovereignty, and I don't want to talk
about it." Please, this is not a question about
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 210 sovereignty. It is a question about you agreeing
that poverty reduction is a fundamental objective
of the development program, and donors supporting
that agreement with money--putting their money
where their mouth is--and the recipient country
must accept. It has nothing to do with
sovereignty. It is about your capacity to
implement your desired programs. Since you have no
domestic capacity in terms of resources, accept
what is required for you to get foreign resources
to implement that program. That is what the
partnership should be about--not about allowing
every country to develop their own different
targets.
I thank you.
MR. DORYAN: I think this is triggering a very interesting discussion.
Please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF SRI LANKA [Ms.
GunewardenaJ : I feel that I need to qualify what
was said about the Sri Lankan experience, but in so
doing, I will try to throw some light on the issue.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 211 There are two issues here. One is that if
we were to take the statistics in this folder as
accurate, Sri Lanka has already achieved a lot of
those International Development Goals. Now, are we
going to be rewarded for doing so in terms of aid,
or are we going to be penalized for having achieved
them, because other people need that money, and we
no longer need it? That is one question which I
think Mr. Klasen actually drew our attention to
very early on this morning.
The second question, which is just a point
of clarification, is that I believe--and I think
Martin Ravallion more or less admitted it in our
group session--that the statistic on poverty that
you have there in your folder, which is the dollar-
a-day measurement, is misleading. It is an
estimate and a projection. Estimates used
following Martin's Bank guidelines, using household
data, actually gave us a fairly high figure of 25
percent, when what we have in here is less than 10
percent.
So the question that it gave rise to when
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 212
I pointed this out is should we then use this
specific indicator or as one of the indicators to
measure the goal of reducing poverty. And Martin
himself said that the point of calculating the
dollar-a-day poverty measure was to come up with
international aggregates--what has happened to
global poverty--and it was not to say that these
are country-specific poverty indices.
So since we actually have it in here, I
think it is worth underscoring the fact that there
is a danger in using that particular indicator for
the particular goal that we want to measure.
Thanks.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
I think one of the points raised is what
is going to be the social contract, both an
incentive for the laggers and the front-runners.
That is an issue that should be at a certain point
clearly stated in order to make this a rising tide
both for the laggers and for the front-runners.
That is probably going to appear more than once in
this discussion.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 213 Yes, Stephen?
MR. BROWNE: Yes, if I may come in at this
point, I'm not sure that there really is too much
of a fundamental disagreement about the globalized
or the localized indicators.
I think the importance of the Millennium
Declaration was that it gave an extraordinary and
unprecedented legitimacy to those International
Development Goals, which is why we like to call
them the MDGs. I think it did not merely say to
the developing countries that the world community
now thinks that to perform, you need to achieve. I
think it has to be interpreted in a much more
constructive and partner-oriented manner to say
that the world community is now committed, rich and
poor countries together, to helping every country
to meet those targets, challenging though they are
in some cases.
I do think it is inevitable that when it
comes down to the country level, a target--Iet's
take as a particular example the income poverty
target--and by the way, I think we should be using
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 214 income poverty as opposed to the poverty target; I
am very insistent upon that t because human poverty
is a much more embracing concept, and income
poverty is much more narrow--but when it comes down
to measuring income poverty, I think it will be
found that in the large number of countries in the
world, the dollar-a-day target has never been
mentioned and is not particular meaningful. It has
been done at a global level on sort of a formulaic
basis t and it has enormous value at the global
level for advocacy purposes. But at the country
level, countries have their own poverty targets,
and it is those that we should be monitoring.
Let me link what I am saying, if I may,
with the suggestion I made that we are doing things
backward. I am not really picking this out of the
air. I am saying that when we did the Tanzania MDG
report, we essentially came ~o a similar result.
We looked at nine goals which seemed to be relevant
to Tanzania. It would have been totally
unrealistic to have left out from the Tanzania
analysis a goal on HIV/AIDS if it is going to be
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 215 poverty-related. There is a goal on HIV/AIDS in
the Millennium Declaration, so it was included.
What we tried to do here was to look,
target by target, at what the country had so far
achieved, starting in 1990, to the extent the data
permitted this.
Secondly, we looked target by target at
the specific development challenges that were
required to help that country achieve that target
and, for example, a number of cross-cutting issues
came in. On food security, the gender factor was
absolutely critical.
Thirdly, we looked at the nature of the
policy environment--in other words, the nature of
the commitment that that country had made to
achieving that goal and the likelihood of it being
achieved in the current policy environment.
But fourthly--and this is very important--
was the need for development assistance
specifically for that country to meet that target.
So it was a manner in which we could combine both
the national and the international commitment for
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 216 that country, for that target, and meeting it by
the year 2015.
I happen to think that it is the right way
forward, and once again, I would commend a careful
reading of this report to this meeting.
Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you for bringing this
part of the discussion to a country-specific
example.
Jo?
MR. RITZEN: I would like very much to
elaborate on a point which was made, but picking a
different dimension. The point was just made that
there is a strong relationship between the country
approach and the international approach; otherwise,
we are talking about business as usual. And we are
not talking about business as usual, or at least I
think we do want to make an extra effort.
Let me try to stress that from the
perception of the political economy and that
dimension, which was very much put forward in the
group which talked about education and health. And
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 217 of course/ anyone who has been working on education
and health is very aware of the political economy.
Good ideas count/ but are maybe just a mini-measure
in the mile to go--that is taking two different
standards/ one from one area and one from an other-
-it is a very small part of the total road to go.
A major part is the political economy.
The political economy approach actually/ in my
view/ has been very dominant in adopting the IDGs/
at least in my view r and I think that makes it
worthwhile to flag.
The political economy dimension
essentially iS r to start with/ what was mentioned
this morning by Emmanuel and also repeated by
Rehman Sobhan. It is governments who will have to
do the work. It is not going to be this table that
is going to change anything in Uganda. It is not
going to be any other group. It is really the
Ugandan Government r essentially. Of courser the
Ugandan Government also has a representative of the
country and is very much in contact with the
country, and there r I very much like the notion
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 218 that the country can do much. I could not do much
when I was a minister in the Netherlands without
elaborate consultations with stakeholders to make
sure that stakeholders would at least follow the
tradeoffs--that was also the word used by Emmanuel,
the tradeoffs. Eduardo couldn't do anything in
Costa Rica without having strong consultations. So
in that respect, strong consultations are part of
the effort.
But then, strong consultations in this
case I think are very much fed by benchmarks based
on notions that governments can increase room for
maneuver by pointing to, say, benchmarking figures.
That is something in which I think when you look at
changes in the European Union or in OECD countries,
you can recognize the very strong role of
benchmarking.
For example, the German response to the
OECD studies on benchmarking in pensions has been
very strong. The Chancellor has repeated time and
again that we cannot continue the system, and he
simply used the benchmark; I think he wanted to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 219 change the system anyway--I can't look into his
soul, but I think he wanted to do that anyway--and
he pointed to the benchmarking.
I think the IDGs precisely have that same
kind of possibility--benchmarking in the sense that
we can do so much better. And of course, one of
the basic elements which I think is on all of our
minds is that the experience in countries is so
different, the room for maneuver is so large, but
then, it has to be captured. Some countries on the
same level of income have maybe twice as high
poverty as countries which are the best countries. 1 In education, it is very apparent~ Countries which / have $1,000 per capita still hav~ illiteracy of 30
to 40 percent,' while other coun'ries have
absolutely no illiteracy, and even countries of
$600 per capita may not have illiteracy.
So in that respect, I think the
benchmarking is a very important element in the
developing countries. And I think one of the
discussions should be on how to create not only the
benchmarking but also the translation or
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003 2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 220 transmitter, the conveyor belt, from benchmarking
to, say, room for maneuver, how to help developing
countries in this.
In my view, that is one part of the
political economy. The other part of the political
economy is very much the role in the developed
world. Sometimes, it is really quite surprising to
see how strong the support is for ODA, for official
development assistance, if you see how little
attempt is made to promote the outcomes associated
with ODA in the developed world. Quite often, I
think the countries with high levels of ODA as a
percentage of GDP simply have the general notion
that this is good. But very little use has been
made of what is actually a battle in their own
elections. Look at elections in the U.S., fought
on the battle of education and health; elections
once again in Germany, completely fought on the
basis of environment, health, and education;
elections in the UK, very much on those topics.
Now, those topics, which are very much, of
course, embodied in the IDGs, are of little use up
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 221 to this stage in the developed world. I do think
that the IDGs--and I think that that is one of the
reasons why the British Government adopted them so
strongly in their white paper, but also in other
efforts, and why the Dutch Government very much
thinks that it is important--they see this simply
as a way to promote development cooperation better
in their countries. So in that respect, I very
much want to say two things. First of all, the
relationship between country efforts and
international efforts is strong. At the same time,
I think that does not turn away from the notion
that countries have to define their own destiny and
have to look for their own room for maneuver. But
at the same time, also saying that this political
economy link might also give some hope with respect
not only to what happens in the developing
countries, but also in what developing countries
can demand the developed world to deliver.
MR. DORYAN: I think that puts in a very
good context the discussion probably of most of the
day.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 222 We have time for a couple more
interventions.
Yes, please.
MR. BRADFORD: I will try to be brief.
I just want to build on what Jo Ritzen
just said and what a couple of other speakers have
said. That is, quite clearly, we are dealing here
with global approaches to poverty. I think the
Governor from Uganda has made that very clear as
has the representative from Burkina Faso, that you
have to integrate a variety of instruments in order
to be effective at the national level in reducing
poverty.
At the same time, if you read the
environment goal as it is in the Interriational
Development Goals, it says that national strategies
should be put in place by 2005 in every country_
That includes the developed countries, is the way I
hear it. And what I have gotten to thinking about
is the use of the word "compact" earlier in this
discussion, and the question is how--we haven't had
much conversation here about how to specifically
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 223 put flesh on that idea of a compact. But it
strikes me that one way to do it is to translate or
transfer the notion coming from our Ugandan and
Burkina Faso speakers about a national approach
that integrates instruments internally to the
advanced countries who themselves have goals of
reducing the poverty that is left in advanced
countries, of achieving gender equality within
their countries, of achieving better health systems
to improve life expectancy, which is what the other
three health goals are about, and the environment.
So the thing I put to you in terms of
conversations both formally and informally is
whether or not the idea of the compact in a global
age could not be formulated with a view of Northern
actions, if you like, OEeD actions, which are
simultaneously in a context of their own domestic
efforts to achieve the goal of the International
Development Goals and their international
development cooperation efforts to help other
countries around the world achieve theirs.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 224 We have three more speakers. I think you
were the first, United States, and then ILO, then
UK.
REPRESENTATIVE OF USAID [Norman
Nicholson] : Thank you very much. Norman Nicholson from USAID.
This has been a very helpful day of
discussion indeed, and I wanted to make two or
three points.
The first point I want to make is that at
least for some donors and certainly the United
States, we have a difficult problem in that we do
not budget or program around the category of least-
developed countries. This is not a budget category
for us in our Congress. It is not a programming
concept for us in our programming. So making the link between the way in which we do business and
the implications of these indicators is a very
difficult link to make in some ways.
So I find that as we begin to get into
some of the details of the lower levels of
indicators and the implications at the country
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 225 level, it becomes much easier for us to deal with
in some ways at the country level than it is at the
global level, because we are in countries, and we
do design programs.
So I find that getting down to the meat of
it really enhances our own ability to grapple with
this problem.
The second point I wanted to make,
however, is in some ways a contradiction to the
first point. That is going back to a point which
Colin made I think very early in the day, that for
some of us, the origins of this were in the role of
these indicators in advocacy, the role of these
indicators to make a political statement and to
hold our feet to the fire at a political level.
From that point of view--and I am a social
scientist, I have done research on poverty and
development in the field, and I am very sympathetic
with the complexity and the country specificity of
all of these indicators. I am also well aware that
if I try to explain this to my political leadership
or to my Congress, I will fail, and that therefore,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 226 somehow or other, we have to be able to pull from
this complexity a relatively simple political
message which is where we started out from.
So I guess what I am afraid of is that as
this becomes more and more academically perfect, it
becomes less and less political economy useful.
And somehow among us, we have to strike that
balance.
The third point I wanted to make is that I
find the discussion following the breakout sessions
to be very, very useful, and indeed, the practical
problem of establishing one side of the compact
which is a commitment on the part of the recipient
country to put people first, to put poverty first,
to alter its investment programs in such a way that
it will live up to its compact to reduce poverty.
I can understand the budget complexity of
that is enormous and to be able to track this, but
I think it is critical to keeping the deal. In a
sense, one of the things we learn in development is
if you make a deal on the distribution of water in
a water user association, and nobody can track who
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 227 is using the water, there isn't any deal; the deal
doesn't exist. So the ability to track is very
important.
But I would argue that the efforts of the
government through its budget are in fact, in most
of the areas we are talking about on which we have
indicators, a relatively small part of the
society's investments in health or education or
rural credit and other things. And what I am not
hearing this afternoon is what I would have
expected, which is some impact of the luncheon
speaker. civil society is, as far as I know, one
of the most efficient mechanisms known for the
production of collective goods and services--I say
collective goods and services. And what we have
learned in health, and what we have learned in
environment, and what we have learned in rural
credit is that civil society does a much better job
of producing certain collective goods that are
essential, like protecting natural resources, like
establishing community health services and things
of this sort, than the state does. Yet we are
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 228 exclusively this afternoon talking about the state
budget.
Similarly, I think what we have learned is
that you need an expanding role--the Washington
consensus argues that you need an expanding role
for the private sector. Some of the most
astounding advances that we are making these days
are in public-private partnerships that match
governmental and market mechanisms. I don't hear any discussion here of that.
So that somewhere in this discussion of
how we achieve these indicators, it seems to me we
need to address the respective roles of the state,
civil society, and the market in the process, and
perhaps our indicators need to help us to deal with
that reality, complex as it is.
Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
ILO, please.
REPRESENTATIVE OF ILO [Mr. Pursey] Thank you, Chairman.
This meeting is very timely for us,
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003 2802 202 546-6666 ah 229 because our governing body's Working Party on
Social Dimensions of Globalization is going to be
discussing next Monday how to connect the poverty
reduction work to the ILO's agenda on decent work.
I think that probably because the ILO's
mandate around the world of work is potentially so
large--we seem to overlap with every agency around
this table in some way or another--and that makes
our Director-General particularly preoccupied with
the issue of coherence in the multilateral system.
So I came to this meeting particularly
interested in the angle of the International
Development Goals or the Millennium Development
Goals as a tool for inter- and, I must say, intra-
agency coherence. I say intra-agency because they
have been quite useful in helping us to just look
at our own activities and try to pull them together
more coherently.
So I have just a couple of points that I
wouldn't like to end the day without getting
straight.
We had a discussion this morning on
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 \ ah 230 whether there were any problems in the differences
between the International Development Targets and
the Millennium Development Goals t and I was quite
happy with the resolution of that--that iS t that
they are consistent; they are not identical t and
letts not have a big fuss about it. I have no
problem with that t but I think that everybody in
this room needs to get their line straight t because
if anybody wants to attack this whole process t that is a very weak point. It is easy for the cynics to
say, oh, you don't know what you are talking about,
and do you mean this t or do you mean that, would
you start on this. So I think it is very important
that the system get its line straight on that.
The same thing applies, incidentallYt I
think, to the relationship between UNDAF and PRSP,
and I think that that was clarified very well this
morning t but again, it is an easy weak point. Also, I think some valuable points came
out this afternoon in terms of how to connect the
value of the targets for international advocacy to
their operational value in particular countries
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 231 where you need a little bit of flexibility as to
whether the target internationally makes sense for
the country. I think there were some very useful
points made there, and again, I don't have anything
particular to add to it, but from the point of view
of coherence, I would just like them to get sort of
cemented in.
From the point of view of the lessons so
far for the ILO, I will just say there are three
things. One, we need to know ourselves better what
we do. It seems like a very obvious point, but for
a large agency dealing with a lot of countries,
particularly in our case with a tripartite
constituency in each country, we have quite a large
number of programs that are developed over the
years, a lot of which are incidentally connected to
civil society, and they are all very interesting
and very good, but they are developed allover the
place, and they need to be brought together.
Bringing them together, we also need to
connect with what other people do. And then,
having done that, the object of the exercise is to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202 546-6666 ah 232 offer our constituencies--in our case, it is the
employees and trade unions as well as the
governments--something that is specific from the
ILO, something that is our expertise, but that fits
with everybody else's. So for me, one of the
values of the International Development Targets and
the Millennium Development Goals, is to help us do
that process of focusing in on what we do, how to
put it together, connect it to other people, and
then offer it in some sort of package that makes
sense.
My guess is that probably all the agencies
are doing something like that, and it might be
worthwhile to exchange some experience on it,
because the political momentum that the
International Development Goals and the Millennium
UN General Assembly has given us is not going to
last forever, and it is worthwhile catching this
wave, taking it as far as we can, and then making
sure that there are some, if you like,
institutional rocks for the people to take the next
wave to build on.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 233 Thank you.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
I think that that is probably a reflection
for any of the agencies that are represented here.
I will take two final comments from UK and
the Netherlands.
REPRESENTATIVE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: I
just wanted to comment briefly on the income
poverty target, because it could be possible to
deduce. It was called into question, and it might
be possible to deduce from my UNDP colleague's
remark that we might perhaps downplay the
importance of the dollar-a-day target.
I think there are two points to make here.
The first is that I think we all recognize that it
is not an objective and cannot be an objective to
impose on developing countries a particular measure
of poverty. In every practical case that I know
of, we the international community, the World Bank
in the lead, are treating this issue as one in
which countries have their own means of devising
poverty lines. But the key point is that these
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 234 should be capable of translation by simple
statistical technique into an equivalent dollar-a-
day mechanism so that there can be comparisons
across countries, so that we can aggregate to
regional and global levels.
I cannot emphasize too strongly how
valuable this particular indicator has been in
public discourse on the value of development
assistance, and if we do wish, as I am sure we all
do wish around this table, to see higher levels of
development assistance flowing from the donor
countries, I think it is very important that we
should all agree on the usefulness of the dollar-a-
day indicator in promoting public interest, in
promoting public conviction that development
assistance is useful. This is the indicator which
more, I think, than any other with the possible
exception of the primary education indicator really
mobilizes public opinion in support of development
assistance.
MR. DORYAN: Thank you.
Netherlands, please.
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 235 REPRESENTATIVE OF THE NETHERLANDS [Mr.
Roos] : Two things, Mr. Chairman. I would like to
come to the rescue of our American colleague. I
have the impression that he feels there is a need
for the U.S. to come forward with more targets and
more indicators. Nobody is asking for that, and
basically, we would ask the U.S. to calm down a bit
and do with a little bit less, because the amount
of indicators and targets that you have is I think
madness and is not manageable and might drown the
whole USAID ship.
That is one--so keep it simple, please.
That is an advice I would like to give to all of
us. I think 21 is enough. It is 3 times 7--3 is a
holy figure, and that means that for every day in
the week, we have a trinity. That must be enough.
Now, if there is need with our partners to
have more things to measure and to monitor, I think
then it is a national need they have, and they
could embed that in their national structure, in
their PRSP process, and they can ask us to support
that. If they need more indicators, they can
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 236 develop them and let us stop pushing that kind of
idea on a broader basis than just in the national
process.
Fourthly, our previous Minister for
Development Cooperation had on his desk for about 6
years a list of one and a half pages full with one
line per quantitative target. They were all
invented by him in the past. I made that list, and
it irritated me immensely. At the end of his term,
I think he had thrown about 25 percent of that list
out and had reduced it. His successor took the
whole paper and threw it out the window. There is
only on quantitative target he has, and that is the
volume of assistance that we provide, and that is
enough for us.
Thank you very much.
MR. DORYAN; Thank you.
The objective of today was to share
experience, and get the framework ready for a much
more in-depth discussion at the country level. But
I think there are a few things that we should
probably keep in mind as we to go on the next, much
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 5 6-666 ah 237 more socially-related activities.
One is that indeed this is a process that
implies a rethinking by all the agencies,
bilaterals and countries, about what are the
building blocks of our mutual work and our
partnerships in the future. So I think this is a
process, as was very well expressed by the ILO
representative, what we do and how we partner, and
what is the specific contribution of everyone--and
that includes not only the governments, but also
civil society, et cetera. So we are thinking about
how we can move forward.
Second, the element of benchmark I think
can contribute to overcome some of the issues
between the country and the global element.
And finally, in the technicalities of the
goals themselves, let us try to be as simple as
needed, as Einstein used to say, because there is a
political economy component in this discussion as
well, so we should be as robust and coherent from a
technical point of view, but without losing that
element to make it happen which is, I'm sure, the
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 238 aim of all of us.
I will hand it over to Eric now for some
administrative announcements and to tell us what is
going to happen next.
MR. SWANSON: We are the guests of the IMF
tonight for a reception and dinner. The reception
starts at 7:00, and the dinner will follow at 8:00.
The IMF building, for those of you who
haven't been here before, is directly across 19th
Street, and we will go in the main entrance there.
The Executive Dining Room is on the next level up.
Please make sure that you wear your badges
and also keep them for tomorrow, because this is
your pass for getting into the building, so you
will need them tonight when you go to the Fund, and
you will need them tomorrow morning when you come
back into the Bank.
Tomorrow morning, we will reconvene here,
and coffee will be out before 8:30 if people want
to show up early, and we will try to begin our
session at about 8:45 tomorrow with a charge to the
group to go off into three breakout groups to
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 (202) 546-6666 ah 239 discuss individual country experiences.
Unlike this afternoon, we have actually
organized which group you are going to, and that
list is probably already outside on the table--if
it is not there now, it will certainly be there
first thin gin the morning, so pick up the list,
see where your group is, and I hop you will be
content with your assignment.
Are there any questions about arrangements
or what happens next, or have you lost anything?
[No response.]
MR. SWANSON: You can leave papers here in
the conference room overnight. That is not a
problem. I would take your other stuff with you.
We'll see you across the street at the IMF
in a bit.
[Whereupon, at 6:15 p.m., the proceedings
were adjourned to reconvene on Tuesday, March 20,
2001, at 9:00 a.m.]
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC. 735 8th STREET, S.E. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003-2802 202 546-6666