Mark O'Connor Benny Thomasson was the greatest breakdown fiddler from Texas ever, but was tragically not recorded professionally or otherwise at his prime in the later 40s - a real shame. Here is an early Tom and Jerry from me that beat all of the Texas fiddlers consistently (older and younger) when we competed in the 70s and 80s though! Ha! It did well with the Southerners in GA, NC, VA etc too - Weiser, ID of course, Canada... I would do well in the contests they would not kick me out of shall we say! (long hair, sandals, breakdowns and all!) It was about as exciting as it ever got when Terry Morris and I would compete. Placed over him 3 of the 4 times. But for me, it did not matter. It was heavy and we both knew it. The first North and South match up of fiddlers by anyone's memory (Seattle and Texas), the young prodigious caretakers of the music. We helped usher in the new era that the old timers were seeing slip away just before we came along.. We had plenty of pedigree through Benny, Solomons and others. It had an epic seriousness to it that had the young people inspired to try and play and the old timers talking for hours and days who was the best, who were these geniuses of the fiddle with nearly no other young player in our midst? Memory lane!
Mark O'Connor Yes... it seems that many on this list don't know what a "breakdown" is. It is derived from an American hoedown, not a Scots/Irish reel. And someone put my hero Johnny Gimble on as the top Breakdown fiddler... he did not play breakdowns, I knew him most all my life - the best Western and Texas swing ever though! Southern style fiddling should be recognized and respected - hoedown/breakdown is one of the greatest musical inventions ever created in my opinion. Breakdown actually has African American ties as well - break it down. Comes from the old South. This is important history. Breakdowns have been traditionally associated with extending the form with either improvisation like bluegrass players occasionally do. My good friend Earl Scruggs who just died, wrote "bluegrass breakdowns" ie Foggy Mt. Breakdown. Bluegrass players "break it down" into "breaks," solos, improv... The Texas players were the best breakdown fiddlers, because they "broke it down" the best with extended variations of most all the tunes they crafted - that is why Benny Thomasson is the best, he crafted more breakdowns than any other, as well as outplaying everyone. When the man wins the Texas State Championships 15 times in a row, while Major, Orville and Norman look on - you know something is up! Great hoedown fiddlers (mostly categorized as playing only 2-part tunes) should also be recognized of course like Jarrell, Kessinger, both whom I knew as a kid... but it is a little different - more old-time - the hoedown dating back 400 years, is the precursor to the breakdown which came on as individual expression was sought after in subsequent generations. But the Canadian fiddlers play the reels. So it continues to be hard to get the word out about what American music is - as always...lots of mystery and intrigue...there should be!
Mark O'Connor Benny never met Clark, but was a big fan of his recordings from the late 20s. Clark Kessinger and his nephew were a popular radio and recording act in the late 20s and 30s out of WV, and their music had wide circulation. It got to Texas either over the air or on recordings. When I got to meet Clark when I was 12, he was thrilled to know Benny was teaching me. Benny loved Heifetz, Kreisler, Venuti, Grappelli, Arthur Smith, of course "uncle" Eck Robertson who was his dad's running buddy, and his father Luke - as well as the early western swing fiddlers that Wills hired and similar bands - all early influences. Benny really created the Texas fiddling style as we know it. Major Franklin absorbed it quickly, Orville who wrote Limerock, basically handed Benny less than half of the tune as we know it today. Benny extended it like he did all of the tunes. Then his versions were emulated by the Solomons etc. Everyone else that we know of (other than Eck of course) came after or was influenced by Benny in Texas. Even bluegrass players like Kenny Baker and Byron Berline were influenced by Benny. I think it is noteworthy that Kenny Baker, a Kentucky fiddler, discards Ed Haley's Grey Eagle version in the key of C, for Benny Thomasson's version in A, and then records that version with Kentucky's Bill Monroe. This gives you an idea of the reach of Thomasson. All corners of the American fiddling he had a hand in. When I met all of the famous southern fiddlers and took lessons from them as a kid, like Howdy Forrester, Tommy Jarrell, Curly Fox, Tommy Jackson, Dale Potter, Benny Martin, Jerry Rivers and more. They would always ask me to tell my teacher Benny hello. He was revered amongst the greatest fiddlers of the 1940s, 50s and 60s as THE greatest fiddler to ever pick up a bow. That is the truth!
Mark O'Connor Justin Obviosly I have tons of favorite players! Do you have my "Heroes" album! Review who is on it... Earl Scruggs is the best bluegrass banjo player... but it should not take away from J.D Crowe or Bela Fleck... Not many people would hear of someone that was the best in something and look no further as you put forward here Justin. Becuase many of us fall in love with the greatest musicians of our time, of all time, and that love or inpsiration fuels us to look futher into the style of Texas fiddling or whatever the style is and find other greats. If it were not for Benny Thomasson, Texas fiddling would not have flourished beyond Texas, NM and Oklahoma and you may have never known it existed! I also would add myself in there as spreading Texas fiddling around to every corner of the country. It in part became known as "contest fiddling" because I won every contest around the country with it, Kentucky State, Tennessee Valley, OK state, Winfield, KS Canadian Nationals at Calgary. This was unheard of, Terry nor even Benny could not do that. I won contests including at bluegrass festivals, fiddle contests in the Northeast, Weiser when no Texan had won Wieser yet outside of Benny! When one considers greatness, one has to take all to account - and influence is a huge factor, success is a huge factor. Major Franklin, did not influence anyone of his generation or the next generation beyond the Texas border besides Dick Barrett. I knew Major, I knew Norman. I loved them. I am just simply trying to answer the man's question in this thread. I would also admit that in this new generation, it does seem that Major, Orville and so forth have become folk heroes. And that is a very good thing. I bring up Orville's name too as a Cherokee who greatly contributed to fiddling. I love them all... I am simply telling you is that Benny's peers judged him as the greatest fiddler to ever play, and that inlcuded all of the fiddlers you mentioned and a great many more! - even his rivals! And about myself... I beat every one of those Texas fiddlers repeatedly from my generation and the generatiion before as well. Hundreds of times... ! I entered something like 400 contests! And I don't believe I ever placed lower than 3rd in my contest career! We were judged by our peers. I recalled another contest with Terry Morris and I from my last entry, so it was five contests total we competed in. He would try to avoid contests that he knew I was showing up at. Herman Johnson did the same! I placed over Terry 4 out of 5 times. The one of those I lost was Crocket, TX when I was just 14. And I was not allowed to play against him. as they elminated me early in the Junior round. People who attended Crocket in 1976 will still talk about that day, many of those Texans claim it was one of the saddest days in Texas fiddling contest history not to let the two young guns fight it out on stage at the great contest. This also should be common knowledge, but the best Texas fiddlers never came to Weiser becuase of one simple reason - me. As long as I was winning there, they did not want to make the trip and lose to me there, they just were not going to do it (Terry, Randy, Larry, none of those guys). So peope like Jimmy Don started coming to Weiser only after I retired from contests. But those are the facts, whether you like it or not! Look it up is all I got to say! Whether you want to change some of the influence now, it can't change history and it can't change what the very people you speak of thought contemporaneously to those times. It speaks volumes and should be remembered. I will have to write the dang book on those great days of fiddling becuase I can see it has gotten pretty distorted from the way it actually was and that would be a shame to change history becuase of a few people's changing tastes. But in the 1970s, it was Benny. I was with him when he was added to the Library of Congress archives. If something ever happend to us (our country), there will be a nuclear proof vault with Benny Thomasson and his music, his stories, (6 hours worth), and his genius. Protected for some other time, some other people or intellegence to remember what happened here in this country if we lose our planet. What can I say! It is greatness! I saw all of the Senators greet Benny. It was hard to not shed the tears in front of them.
Steve Goldfield Estrella, the term "Reel" generally means 4/4. Breakdowns are generally fast and furious as suggested by the name. So, a breakdown could also be a reel. Hornpipes originated on pipes (as the name suggests) and later moved to fiddles; they had a kind of lilting rhythm. Most American hornpipes are now played as reels. It's no wonder that people get confused. The words have multiple meanings which change over time. Jigs with 6/8 rhythm almost completely disappeared from the mountain South. There are a few schottisches left, but only some of them have the 1-2-3-Jump rhythm that was originally associated with schottisches, which is a German word used to describe tunes of Scottish origin originally. And I don't want to suggest that I'm an expert. Please don't ask me to define a Strathsbey. But the point is that words mean what people intend them to mean and that changes both over time and across cultures. One kind of fun btw is to take a jig and play it as a reel; I know some of those. I had a British friend who liked to fiddle "Soldiers Joy" as a jig (which is the other direction, reel to jig), and I thought that was common across the pond until another British fiddler told me he had never heard of it there.
Mark O'Connor Steve, I wish I could draw a small chart on this feed... The "reel" comes from the British Isles. The reel travels to the colonies and fuses with multi-cultural influences, most prominently the African American and Native American people. The reel thus is developed stylistically to the "hoedown" 400 years ago. The "breakdown" is inspired from the hoedown much later, from the more "American side" of the hoedown separate from its forefather the reel (conceptually the reel represents province or something tied to "fatherland," while the hoedown represents a division from a central cultural authority of Europe and freedom of expression - it is one of the reasons why the Canadians kept with the reels, their identity with Europe was much stronger than the Americans living in the South - White, Black and Native). Many tunes can still be called "reel" or anything else, but if it is played in the manner of a hoedown or a breakdown, then the style should be acknowledged. An analogy would be that Blue Moon Of Kentucky is a bluegrass song. Elvis turned it into Rockabilly or an early Rock song. The roots of that song come from another style, and that should be be acknowledged. But Elvis' contribution to music also has to be acknowledged with his own development of the materials. This is the case with "reel," "hoedown" and "breakdown." Hornpipes and their ill fated dance steps in American culture created another story...but alas, a much, much less important story. We HAVE to understand the American hoedown! All with me! Thanks! I am going to start a blog soon for those of you who want to keep up with my writing on all topics - music. I will not add any more here. Please like my Facebook fanpage and keep up with me there. facebook.com/markoconnorfanpage - I have written extensively on American music history, a new O'Connor Method in how to learn strings using American music etc etc.. Plus I have personally known practically every great fiddler that has lived into the 1970s and they all showed me their music, so I have a very unique and informed position to speak from. Thanks for reading!
Steve Goldfield I just want to add one point. Fiddle music is primarily, though not entirely dance music. If I am playing a contra dance and the caller asks for a reel, he or she wants a 4/4 tune with no other significance to the term. These terms, as I see it, do not have the precision that Mark appears to give them in the sense that they are rarely used or understood with that precision. However, the historical development of American tunes and the shifts in rhythm (and bowing) introduced by Native Americans and Africans (there were more African origin fiddlers in the USA in the 19th century than European origin fiddlers--see Sinful Tunes and Spirituals on that) are intensely interesting to me.
Mark O'Connor Steve, you must understand that Texas Breakdowns are not dance music, bluegrass breakdowns are not dance music - they are both what I term "performance" music. That is why this is a development. Bill Monroe and Benny Thomasson not only changed the way people played the music, but changed how they listen or respond to it. Contest fiddling and bluegrass music became so sophisticated that no longer was it appropriate to dance to Tom and Jerry or Foggy Mt. Breakdown (unless you are a hippy and go to Telluride - they can dance to anything). So "Breakdown" is a development from dance music (like contra dance which is I assume what you do a lot of) to performance music which is not intended to dance to, and that is where the personal expression of the musician comes in. In dance, it is common to switch tunes and play in medleys. That is becuase the musical integrity is 2nd to the dance integrity - there are very vew exampes of medleys in both bluegrass and Texas fiddling for that very reason - becuase the creativity, improvisation and variation as well as extended structures and additional parts come in to play. The development of fiddle music as performance music in the U.S. is significant. That would include Texas fiddle breakdowns and bluegrass breakdowns. The rhythms are obviosly a derivatioin of dance music but much more sophisticated, owing a lot to jazz and more developed performance music. I hope this makes sense. I am trying to simplify it as best as I can so peopel can understand here in the feed. But obviously there is always a lot of variation to all American music. But I think it is important to get to the heart of it in general terms, than study the nuances which are of course many... Thanks.
Ed Carnes Very cool thread! Benny was my personal favorite and I knew him. Mark, of course I didn't know him 0.1% as well as you, but he did meet Clark Kessinger - he told me so himself. I have a lot of music buddies in WV and Bob Kessinger (Clark's nephew) used to tell me when I was a kid that Benny and Clark met and Benny got some tunes from Clark - specifically "Sandy River Belles" (which Benny reworked as Tugboat) and Kanawha March (which I have Benny on tape playing with no name - but Shorty recorded it on 45 and called it Cannonball Rag). I asked Benny and he said yes he and Clark met once and fiddling some together. I told him about Bob's "assertions" that Benny lifted some tunes from Clark - Benny then described Bob perfectly and asked me if that was the guy I was talking about and I said yes. Benny laughed pretty hard and told me that he would not say he got any tunes off Clark but that he and Clark did trade off some fiddling and each took away a few ideas from the other. Benny told me that at the GMFC, maybe in 1983. As far as other Texas players at Weiser beside Benny, don't forget Herman Johnson who was there in the olden days. Herman was Texas style player although he would not like me saying it. Also in '65 and '70 Byron Berline played very TX style although not like Benny. I well recall you winning everything in the old days and whipping me many times you rat :-) I am not sure it was so much because you were a TX Style player but you were the original young fiddle player prodigy. Your talent transcended fiddle syles, just as it does today. I loved you comments and insights and I am glad we have known each other over 30 years now! You are one of my favorites as well.
Mark O'Connor I would say that Bluegrass folks would be more akin to have audiences "clog" and "buck dance" to their "breakdowns" than Benny Thomasson would be into having someone "call" dances to Dusty Miller and Sally Johnson. I am absolutely sure of that. I was there with those guys! Well...I don't know what to tell ya! But anyway, I think it is a clear marker that Bluegrass music and Texas breakdown music became performance oriented music, designed for the stage and not for dances. Yes I am sure there are a few exceptions, but once again I am trying to be general, simple and clear for this thread because so many do not know what a breakdown is. Another interesting note is that bluegrass found a forum on concert stages more so than Texas Fiddling. (believe me I know very, very well) While both bluegrass and Texas fiddle breakdowns are both for the connoisseur, the bluegrass found a way to be more "entertaining" to a music audiences and Texas Fiddling found a way to be more discerning and studied for adjudication. That is why bluegrass fiddling never did very well in contests (even at bluegrass contests where I would win with Texas fiddling over the bluegrassers in their own festivals) and also why Texas fiddling never became a focal point for the concert stage.
Steve Goldfield Mark, I think you make my point very well. Although I like bluegrass and have been reviewing for Bluegrass Unlimited since 1994, I play old-time music, primarily on the banjo but also some on the fiddle since 1996. I don't play a lot for dances, but I have done quite a bit of that for both contra and square dances. When I play, the music is almost always suitable for dancing even though we are jamming and not playing for dancing. I have performed, but I'm really not very interested in performing. I get my enjoyment in music from the ensemble layers of sound we construct in the best old-time jams. So, the use of terms used in most fiddle contests or in on-stage performances is not of much relevance to me. That's why I said we have very distinct fiddling cultures. You are giving definitions used in your culture but they don't fit very well with mine. To me, the fiddlers you admire are not the real artists of fiddling because for me that is tremendously determined by the bowing patterns that bring out the rhythm of the tune. I never saw Benny bow, for example, but I have watched many contest and bluegrass fiddlers (very well-known ones) who do not use any of the many subtle nuances of bowing common to old-time fiddling. For me, the great artists of fiddling are people like Tommy Jarrell, Ed Haley, Melvin Wine, Benton Flippen, French Carpenter, Edden Hammons, Clyde Davenport, Bill Stepp, John Salyer, Doc Roberts, and many more. But that is because I am using different criteria than you are, which is fine both ways. The kind of fiddling that you like definitely developed out of the kind of fiddling that I like, but they are not the same, though I know people who can do both. The inference I sense in what you wrote is that there is a progression from old-time to bluegrass or contest style. I dispute that strongly. There is a branching but not a progression and the older style continues to flourish and develop on its own. Therefore, if you want to define terms specific to a particular subset of fiddling, that is fine so long as you don't insist that these are the only valid meanings of those terms outside that fiddling community.
Mark O'Connor Absolutely American music developed and develops. It is a ridiculous notion to think that it did not, and reckless to put it in print like you are doing. Once again you get caught up in the semantics. Beethoven is a development of Mozart, but that does not mean you can't like Mozart and appreciate him as much or more than Beethoven. You are mixing the semantics... Schoenberg is a development from Stravinski, Shostakovich is a development from Tchaikovsky, Gershwin a development from Foster, Bill Monroe from his own Monroe Brothers, and Benny Thomasson from Eck Robertson. Bela is a development from Earl Scruggs. It does not mean it is better, but it is a development of it original material, informed by its idea, structures, phrases, harmony, rhythm and language with the notion of discovery not replication. That does not mean that all of these experiments pan out. But for better or worse, Classical music in Europe developed and American music through its diversification and other cultural landmarks developed as well. Ragtime to Swing to Jazz to BeBop to Modern Jazz to Acid/Punk/Dark/Alien/Bling/Hate Jazz - C'mon Steve! You can understand the ways! (Speaking of bowing, I just put mine up above playing Grey Eagle! Enjoy! My bowing is as close to Benny's as anyone!
Steve Goldfield Mark, you turned what i said upside down. I precisely said that it does develop. Blues, bluegrass, and more branched out from old-time music, but it continues to be a vibrant music today. Look, for example, where fiddlers like Bruce Molsky, Rayna Gellert, and many others are taking it to name only a couple of examples. Contemporary old-time fiddling is just as developed as bluegrass or Texas contest fiddling. They are cousins but different cousins. So, what i said isn't reckless at all, it just reflects the universe I live in. What seems reckless to me and quite wrong is to say that old-time music developed into bluegrass or contest fiddling. That is branching, not development. The development is the way in which the tradition continues to grow despite those branches. There was no displacement; there has been parrallel growth.
David Garelick This has been one of the most interesting discussions on Facebook in a long time. First of all, I should mention that I met Benny Thomasson in Weiser back in 1973 or so, and interviewed him for a radio show I was producing on KPFA in Berkeley. That interview continues to surface from time to time (a transcription of the KPFA interview was published in a now-defunct publication called The Devils Box, although I've seen it republished elsewhere). Benny would fully agree that his style was more for listening/performing than for dancing. It was a life long work in progress, something he developed from the old tunes and from the ideas of other Texas fiddlers (especially Eck Robertson). He did not use the word "develop" or "evolve", but it was obvious that he was "working out the tunes," as he called it, to better express himself and the intrinsic ideas in each tune. A fiddle tune was a building block for a unique artistic expression, which is why Benny has become such a cultural icon in the world of fiddling, as I'm sure Mark would agree. There are many imitators, and certainly an entire generation of fiddlers cut their musical teeth on Benny's tunes. Benny told me that he had every expectation that the younger fiddlers would soon surpass him in their own mastery of his style; that he probably wouldn't even recognize the tunes in 30-40 years. And it didn't bother him at all. I think he really did see himself as an innovator and one whose ideas would continue to grow, to develop. In many ways, this has happened; in other ways, his style has sometimes appeared to be a kind of orthodoxy in contests, such that many other creative styles have been eliminated or sent out to other venues. Old Tiime, in the style of Bruce Molsky, for example, hardly makes a dent in the Texas orieinted contests, but the huge popularity of old time in venues like Clifftop, West Virginia, shows that it is equally vibrant and creative, and attracting a whole new generation of fiddlers. I would never call one style better or more "evolved" than another; I think the diversity of all these styles speaks of the richness of our American culture, and shows us how far we have traveled from the mostly European roots of this music.
Mark O'Connor You fail to understand the concept of musical development completely Steve. You are caught up in style comparisons only. Musical development may include harmonic advancement, longer forms or more complex structures, more risk taking in essence, new technical achievements, rhythmic development, new ideas in instrumentation and performance applications and new forms of expression. If this all turns into a style ie Bluegrass or Texas Fiddling etc etc, then you can decide if you like the style. But if the style was partially derived from musical development (the things I list above and more) then it is what it is... The bluegrass band is very much a development from the Appalachian String band. Everything evolved. I am not saying I like it better, but it developed. The Appalachian String band really only followed the fiddler (or the leader), the Bluegrass band could follow any number of 4 of 5 instrumentalists at a given moment, that is not "branching" as you call it. Your example would be exhibit A, everyone follows the fiddler to exhibit B, everyone follows the banjo player. "Ensemble development" could include everyone follow each member of the group at various times. Just the bluegrass band ensemble as a structural concept was a development. The singing developed from usually one person singing or at the most two in harmony previously, to full three and four part singing in harmony, some would say in virtuosic harmony with huge leaps by the high tenors. Quite a bit more sophisticated, it required far more experimentation, practice and discipline to perfect it than previous models. just the fact that everyone takes a solo in the bluegrass band is a development from everyone accompanies or plays in unison with the fiddler in Appalachian bands. Also the obvious counterpoint of the bluegrass band down to the back beat mandolin chop is a development that is much closer to the musical independence of a string quartet score for instance. Each of the five players has a specific role of counterpoint that they can work there way in and out of. I demonstrate this in my lectures. Once again, I believe I like Appalachian String bands better than bluegrass bands the majority of the time - my personal tastes - I love the old music and love all the fiddling! I love the fact that everyone follows the fiddle! But, to be honest with readers, one has to admit that Bluegrass opened up new ideas in American string band music, therefore it was a development from Uncle Dave Macon. New Grass is a development from Bluegrass. I was in the middle of that too! I know exactly what we did and how we accomplished it. Newgrass (includes Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Jerry Douglas etc...) may never be as successful as Bluegrass. I don't know, and frankly I don't really even care that much. It is not what I hang my hat on. But if people like Strength in Numbers then I will take credit. I assembled that band for our recording. If people don't like it, I have plenty of other stuff I am doing as well. But it is a development of bluegrass. And it lead to success stories like Chris Thile and Nickel Creek. So there are models for its further application and therefore legacy... But that is the way she works Steve.
Mark O'Connor David, a very good point. I do think that my very good and close friend Bruce Molsky "developed" the style of Old-Time from Tommy Jarrell, Mike Seeger, John Carson... easily. Bruce is doing polyrhythmic bowing, superimposing harmony, odd time signatures, singing one part, playing another part... It is far more developed. Not to take anything from the older guys but I would agree that Old-Time is not a static thing either - just like Bluegrass. Alison Krauss is a development in Bluegrass for many reasons, including gender, as she takes her ascension and top spot right to Bill Monroe and the "Bluegrass Boys" front door and says don't keep us off the stage. Just like Texas Fiddling has become far less about the good ol' boys club. The Texas Fiddle scene has produced as many top women players than other instrumental genres in folk music, perhaps more! I think that is FANTASTIC. There is a lot here... a lot to talk about. I knew Alison since she was 13. She was inspired to learn to play from my first recordings on Rounder. I am at the intersection of the great American traditions and progressions. I will be doing a regular blog on music. I invite you all to subscribe to the Mark O'Connor YouTube Channel, and follow me on twitter! (markoconnor35) My Facebook fanpage has over 23,000 fans so please like me there as well and join me. Thanks for all of the kind words and allowing me to spread some of my knowledge, much of it first hand from the great players of the past. Thanks so much. I will duck out now and get back to composing. Deadlines, deadlines! And I am in residency at the University of Miami this week as well, spreading all of these good words about how great American music is!
Steve Goldfield We obviously have a sharp disagreement here, and I will ignore Mark's insulting barbs and make one final comment. I don't see the move to performance as a "development." I see it as moving music away from its community and creating a performer/audience dichotomy, which is largely negative in comparison to people participating in their own music. I would not push that to the limit; I sometimes like to watch performers, but if I have a choice of playing music and listening to someone else play music, then nearly always, I play. I don't musically like some of the things Mark talks about. I detested Strength in Numbers because, to me, they were playing things because they could and not because it had musical value. I never enjoyed listening to it. I hear many other performers doing that. It is their right to play it, and it's my right to dislike it and then not listen to it. It's fine for people to experiment, but they have to be prepared to fail since that happens more often than not. I recently attended a concert where there was no melody in the music, and I left after 3 or 4 tunes and songs. I have only been listening to bluegrass since 1962 and playing the banjo since 1963. There is lots that I haven't heard, lots that I can't play myself, lots that I like and lots that I don't like. I started focusing on old-tiime music only in 1985. I have strong opinions but often they change or morph. It's fine with me if people want to experiment with the music so long as they don't expect or demand that I like it or listen to it. But it is definitely not fine if they insist that I acknowledge that it is a positive development when I don't think it is. There are many things that we can play that don't improve the music. I suppose it's a bit like genetic mutations. Nearly all of those are harmful, but, once in a while, one has benefits. Blues branched off from old-time music and both continued as distinct genres just as jazz branched off from blues and the same thing happened. Bluegrass branched off from old-time music and both genres continue. That's fine and appropriate. To me, Mark is denying the validity and continuity of the genre I focus on, but that's his problem not mine. I see him as applying value judgments which simply are not appropriate. When Charlie Patton switched from playing banjo tunes on the guitar to playing blues, he was not making a statement that blues was better or more developed than banjo tunes. He was simply doing something new that he learned to do and liked. Other people liked it, too. That should be enough. There is no need to reject or diminish one genre when you create or move into another genre. I'll make one final point. I have heard some fine bluegrass fiddlers try to play old-time tunes and not get it. Listen to Stuart Duncan (one of my favorite bluegrass fiddlers) play "Josie Girl" on Laura Boosinger's CD. He doesn't get the rhythm right. Charlie Acuff told me he was tickled that Stuart, whom Charlie admires as a fiddler, recorded one of his tunes, but Stuart does not sound like he immersed himself in old-time music to the point that he understood the bowing and the rhythm. The polyrhythms that Bruce and Rayna are playing (one rhythm in the left hand and another in the bow) derive largely from African-American fiddlers, who brought polyrhythm and syncopation to American vernacular music. Although some great bluegrass fiddlers, like Art Stamper and Kenny Baker, had strong roots in old-time music, many did not and I see that bluegrass lost some aspects of old-time music just as it added many new features. But contemporary old-time music preserves those elements and builds on them. In other words, like any traditional music it develops within its own musical envelope. Bluegrass and Texas contest fiddling, in my opinion, left that envelope and created their own envelopes (by envelopes I refer to the fuzzy musical boundaries which enable us to recognize music as belonging to one or another genre). That is why I insist on the term branching instead of what I see as the value-laden term Mark uses of development. Obviously, I don't share those values thus I refuse to use that term.
James Reese Mills You don't have to take lessons or learn from anyone else to be a winning contest fiddler and I am proof of that. I am capable of writing songs and learning songs by ear in old time bluegrass and celtic styles. I've played breakdowns at hoedowns with dance calls that people have danced to. That's how I know there is a fallacy in the debate somewhere in here. Just cause a few old farts with fiddles say it's so over there, doesn't mean it's true up here in the Willamette Valley. Every fiddler has their own tricks and you can hear influences in many different styles that don't have anything to do with folk these days. Bruce Molsky doesn't play like good ol' Mr. Jarrell but if Tommy and John Hartford had a baby it might sound a little like Bruce on the fiddle. Anyway here's an old time breakdown for you folks to listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOhfc0ZaS9M
Mark O'Connor Quoting Steve on his latest entry: "creating a performer/audience dichotomy, which is largely negative..." "I sometimes like to watch performers" "I detested Strength in Numbers" "There is lots that I haven't heard, lots that I can't play myself" "Bluegrass and Texas contest fiddling, in my opinion, left that envelope and created their own envelopes (by envelopes I refer to the fuzzy musical boundaries which enable us to recognize music as belonging to one or another genre)."______uh! I have addressed and included various people on this thread with my entries and responses, but Steve only seems interested in badgering and targeting me here. I would like for that to stop now please. When Steve publicly says he "detests" my band 'Strength in Numbers' knowing that I have been a part of this thread and will likely see that, to me that is very unbecoming and not appropriate in my opinion
Steve Goldfield Hmmmm Am I supposed to pretend that I like something I detest or keep quiet about it to avoid offending someone in a public discussion. To me, that gets to the kernel of this disagreement. I'm sure that many people do like it. I don't and I know lots of others who don't. That isn't the point. The point is that there are many approaches to music and we pick and choose what we play, like, and listen to. Most people in the USA probably don't listen to fiddling, bluegrass, old-time, newgrass, etc. at all. When you hold up your music as the ideal, as the current end of a progression that others should aspire to, you make it necessary to state that that may be your view but not that of everyone else. I'm sure I have other musical opinions you won't agree with and that you have many that I don't agree with. All that is fine. There's no reason why we should like the same things. Among many other things that I am and do, I review music for publication. My job is to explain to readers what the musicians are trying to do and then assess how well they do it. Generally, I do enjoy the music that I review but not always. But it's my job to explain the reasons either way. I have given favorable reviews to music I did not enjoy because I recognized that it was very well done in a genre that I personally don't like to listen to. So, when I say that I detest the type of music played by Strength in Numbers, I am saying that I get no musical enjoyment from listening to it and don't want to listen to it. I explained why that is. I see it as playing things because they can be played but not necessarily because they are enjoyable to listen to or because they are musically interesting. That is my view. Others are free to disagree. We all play and listen to music that moves us and that speaks to us. When I say that some of your music doesn't speak to me, that is a statement more about me than about you. My sense is that you are offended because you see some absolute value in types of music that everyone else should respond to. It is that attitude that I reject and which I have been trying to discuss in this thread. Music grows like trees. Some limbs atrophy and fall off. Others flourish and are covered with healthy leaves. And there are many trees in a healthy forest. I am not badgering you or targeting you, Mark. You are stating views that I find profoundly wrong, and I am stating my views. That is normal discourse.
-"Music grows like trees. Some limbs atrophy and fall off. Others flourish and are covered with healthy leaves. And there are many trees in a healthy forest."-
That is so true! I've seen many a genre get tired and die throughout my short life and I find this very true. I find that not every person's opinion in this group welcome and that makes me sad. Just because someone is a more practiced classically trained violinist doesn't give them the right to cyber bully the fiddler simpletons. There is a gyroscopic sense of right and wrong in our minds and we should be focusing on our agreements and how we are alike, not how to disprove other people's disagreements by telling folks how YOUR friends play the fiddle and how somebody is wrong based on what you have observed in your life.
Ting-Ting Gronberg James I totally agree with you music is like language, change over time and place. that's why we have so many different kind of music and languages exist in the same time. And I can never say because my major is Chinese language so other Chinese around the world who use different Chinese dialogue or phrases are wrong. Even English has American English, British English, etc isn't it?
Joe Sites Mark, Remember we talked about you writing a book when you were out visiting last Sept,I still think that should be a good project! I new Benny very well and studied with him the same period as Mark. What made Benny so great was his willingness to share his knowledge and his music! he was a great teacher! As for this Steve fellow, what are your credentials?? what have you accomplished with your music? I see you holding a fiddle,how well do you play? You are quick to correct Mark at every turn. What impact have you had in influencing American acoustic music? Mark is one of the greatest musicians of our era! He raised the bar for fiddling!! I was with Mark during his contest years and played guitar for him many,many times. I have seen what he has done. You should be more respectful.I Am some what surprised that Mark would waste his time trying to educate someone like you!
Joe, I think your attacks are unjustified and if you knew your stuff you'd realize that not everything (barely anything) that was debated holds any water as far as non-fictional music history goes. (Music history is what I know and what I've studied immensely) I must report your personal attacks on my friend Steve to an Administrator because I find them offensive and belittling and this is not how fiddlers should treat eachother. You tore a hateful rift in our loving community and I don't like it one bit. Joe, I think you should pick on somebody with your own 'credentials' and leave this group until you have something nice to say! You're not going to educate a single person with words like those. It really knocks my hat in the creek when disrespect like this gets thrown around!
• Tony Ludiker Some people study (musical) history. And some people actually lived through it and/or created it.
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Tony Ludiker Anyway, my favorite "breakdown" fiddlers (by my definition) are Major and Orville and Benny and Terry and Wes and Carl and Jimmie Don and there are others. And I don't listen only to that type of fiddling and I've even played a few dances in my life (and played nary one breakdown at any of them)! One of the most fun jams I ever played in was probably 20 years ago in Minneapolis/St. Paul where we played in "D" for an hour then the key of "G" for another hour (the gut-strung banjos limit their tuning!). And I've played my share of Classical music. And having said that, my very favorite fiddle tune is Sally Goodin, and there is no better example than "Eck" Robertson's recording from the early 20's.
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Tony Ludiker I kind a look at some of the comments here this way: being a great dance/old time fiddler (who plays two part tunes with no variations although with great rhythm and gusto) is somewhat akin in my mind to being a section player in an orchestra. Those people have some mighty fine talent, but they're no Itzhak Perlman or Joshua Bell or Rachel Barton Pine. Those are the people who have the real talent – the ones who can personally command an audience's attention. And in the fiddle world those are the Benny Thomassons and the Major Franklins and the Terry Morrises et al.
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Tony Ludiker Mark is not the whole history – and some of the people talking here are actually none of the history.
Andr w D r ng Tony’ co nt r ght on th on y, “ rk not th who h tory – nd o of th p op t k ng h r r ctu y non of th h tory.” I wou d on y dd “y t”. P rh p ov r t , o w contr but nough to b co gn f c nt p rt of th history of fiddling; others will participate without making a significant contribution to the history. As a community, we need the latter group, but must commend the former. Add t on y, I po t d wh t fo ow b n th our f n d n tr tor’ r pr nd: t o f t h r . Wh n o on ’ position regarding an issue becomes indefensible, most often h or h w n t t p r on tt ck on th r p rc v d oppon nt. If th t do n’t work, th p r on th r t th t ch r, or t k th b nd go ho . It pp r th “t ch r t ng” has begun - what a shame. Joe's support of Mark is appropriate and deserving. rk’ contr but on h v w y b n thoughtfu , d v r , w -informed, and without condescension. Frankly, I am amazed Mark finds the time to participate at all. That he does so, confirms the quality of his character, as does Joe becoming his advocate. I would hate to lose the contributions of either to this group.
Tony Ludiker And, believe me fiddle friends, I am no Mark O'Connor acolyte. Some of the assertions he makes has to why or why not Texas players did or did not come to Weiser during Mark's years of dominance don't particularly matter to me at all. What does matter is that they did finally start coming and then people like Major Franklin and Terry Morris and Orville Burns and Wes Westmoreland and Carl Hopkins and Jimmy Don Bates, etc., started having a huge primary influence on the playing in the post- Mark O'Connor contest era. Benny's actual influence on my fiddling is very secondary. He influenced Mark O'Connor and Terry Morris and others who in turn influenced people my age and a little younger. Through Mark we all saw that a younger person could compete against the "establishment" of older contest winners like Herman Johnson and Dick Barrett. As Mark himself pointed out there are not really a huge amount of good Benny Thomasson recordings out there. Most of the recordings I have heard were in the twilight years of his fiddling and the quality just wasn't there. Then after Mark left the scene we all started searching out other great fiddlers like Major and Orville and Terry and others for our primary inspiration.
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Steve Goldfield I think the point being missed here is that this is the Facebook Fiddling page and not the Facebook Contest Fiddling page, and many of the things I see asserted might apply to contest fiddling, which is of little interest to me, and I suspect many others, but not to fiddling in general. That has been the point I have been trying to make in this entire discussion. I have expressed my opinions and not attacked anyone as a review of this discussion will show. We have a range of views about what we value in fiddling and it doesn't make sense to preach about absolute values given that range. Tony values variations whereas they matter very little to me, though many of the fiddlers i admire played tunes slightly differently every time they played them. Nothing wrong with that. We each listen to and try to play what we like. It is the attempt to assert that one is somehow better or more developed which I have tried to resist here.
Tony Ludiker Not better or worse - but certain kinds of music are more developed, certainly. We all do what we like. And what we like is sometimes limited by what we can do. Just sayin'
Tony Ludiker And I certainly rarely play in contests any more, but when I sit around and play with friends and family it's gonna be a healthy amount of "true" breakdowns along with some pretty waltzes and probably some rags and polkas. If I am playing with old time players it's going to be some of those great old two-parters.... Nothing wrong with that kind of playing, either.
Tony Ludiker There's a slew of good ones out there, for sure! Steve, just so you know (not that you're interested), I teach out of a book I put together of old time tunes. Many of them I tried to find sources older than the versions I grew up playing in order to keep them a bit more authentic. When my students get somewhere in the middle in my book I have them buy New England Fiddlers Repertoire, my favorite fiddle book. We have a blast working through tunes and how to approach bowing them. In addition, I love the Susan Songer "Portland Collection" books. The only way any of my students learn any Texas-style fiddling is by request - I never push it, especially in their formative years when all the variation would like blow their brains to smithereens! Peace.
Mark O'Connor I can't believe that this is still going on! Both Tony and Joe know what a breakdown is! And play them great. I was simply trying to point out that the question by Vi Wickam was about "Breakdowns," and Orville, Major and the rest who play breakdowns were contest fiddlers. And there is a reason for that, contests helped to develop the virtuosity and complexity of some fiddling in the era between the 1930s to present day. It was easy for me to understand the question that Vi posted. But many here did not know what a breakdown was. They were posting Canadian reel players and even Texas Swing players who don't play breakdowns. There are a few reasons for Benny Thomasson being at the top of the list. The other breakdown fiddlers who were mentioned here by some Orville, Norman, Major and others, lost to Benny in the Texas State and World Championships for years and years. Benny was 15 times in a row, the Texas state champion (1930s and 40s) - that means that Major, Norman and Orville lost to him every single year for 15 years! Before they booted him out! These contests were judged by their peers. The reason why this is significant is that as I said in my first entry, Benny's best fiddling was never recorded in the 1940s. I know a lot about his personal story, and it is plagued with issues... but his fiddling was captured for two tunes on an old reel to reel that Benny played for me one time. This tape has never surfaced... All of the friends who claim they have a copy of it, and have shared those with me, are still not the tape I heard from the 1940s. The reason why I say this, is that I am open to all styles of fiddling. Unlike others in this thread who certainly have dogs in the race, I actually LOVE Canadian fiddling, old-time, bluegrass, Cajun and so many others. In some ways Texas fiddling is not necessarily my favorite any more, although I love it of course. But that one tape of Benny in his prime, is the only recording I have ever heard of fiddling that was beyond anything else I had ever heard in fiddling. This is a "fun" story. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone by saying that... The other side of this is that Benny's recordings and many of the tapes that circulate around Weiser and with the next generation of fiddlers that have Major and Norman on those...Those tapes from the late 50s and 60s are some of Benny's worst playing. I knew Benny very well. He was a horrible alcoholic. Every time he picked up a fiddle, he was given drinks, and he could not play. Joe may remember this, but in 1974, Benny (even though he was long past his prime) he was actually playing pretty good, and many of us younger players stood guard around him all week at Weiser that year to prevent him from reaching for a drink, so he could play as well as he could - and he won that year! We celebrated for him.
Steve Goldfield And the word breakdown has a different meaning to you than it does to me. That simple difference is why it still goes on. We belong to different branches of fiddling, and we use the same terms to mean different things. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't insist that yours is the only meaning that is correct.
Steve Goldfield i'll give an example. Arthur Smith wrote a fine G tune called "North Carolina Breakdown." Old-time musicians play it frequently without any variations. It's just a good fast tune with lots of energy, which is what I mean by a breakdown and what I assume that Arthur Smith meant in naming it. That is all the word means to us.
Mark O'Connor I have said many times here, that bluegrass players play and write breakdowns, and that breakdowns are a spin off of the southern hoedowns. Arthur Smith was a great fiddler, and he was developing the southern style. The term breakdown came from the South and from the plantations. I have been through all of this on this thread. Aurthur Smith was also more than a dance fiddler, he was a performer which evidently Steve and maybe some others here have some disdain for, and he was actually quite a big star - a star of the Grand Ol' Opry. And he was a fiddle contest winner too. I already gave the analogies to breakdowns as giving more expression to the hoedown player, like solos, development, "breaks" and in the case of both Smith and especially the Texans, the variations. A breakdown could be described as a development of the hoedown. The reason why I got in this conversation is that some did not know what a breakdown was, and my point that has been clear all along, is that the breakdown should completely be credited to the American fiddling, not the "reels" of Canada and of Ireland and Scotland. The Breakdowns began in the South, and traveled to Texas where Benny Thomasson used the breakdowns to flourish in a new style called Texas Fiddling. He is one of the great innovators of fiddling that we can point to. It does not mean that there are not others, but Benny is one of the few we can actually point to who created an entire repertoire with a new style.
Ting-Ting Gronberg so you mean any 4/4 tunes without improv or variation in the middle is not a breakdown? ok, the definition in America is sure narrower. I think some Canadian fiddler do play like that, such as Shane Cook and Calvin Vollrath
Mark O'Connor Ting-Ting, Shane is a great fiddler and I am one of his musical mentors. It is not illegal for a Canadian to learn my tunes and play in my style some of the time, or someone from Ireland for that matter. Or take some of what I do, and morph it into there style... This is what most good players do. I am simply saying that the history of Canadian fiddling is reels (and other dances), and the "hoedown" or 'breakdown" that Shane or others play, are from the states. It is good... that is a good thing. They also play the Blues in Japan. But we know where it came from and that is important to value that. It is our history and not enough credit has been given to our traditional styles in academic circles in this country. The fact that very few people here knows what a breakdown is, provides further support that there is nearly no credit given to our great music and our great players of our our music in many circles. It is sad to me... but I am here to try to set the record straight, and shed some light on these things. That is who I am, someone that usually has a of information to share. I have written full histories on a lot of our music on line, in blogs. You can access those through my website markoconnor.com.
Tony Ludiker And just calling a tune a breakdown doesn't make it a breakdown by many people's standards.. Take Chinese breakdown for example – I don't believe it's Chinese nor a breakdown! LOL in fact, I'm sure in the last few months (and I can't remember the source off hand) I found a tune called something-or-ruther Jig that was in duple meter not 6/8.
Tony Ludiker Someone asked about my fiddle book – it's available on fiddle.net. There's also a tune list on there. I think you'll find they're all in the old-time fiddle repertoire. One of the very last tunes is one called gravel walk which I believe is a five-part tune with bowed triplets (cuts). Definitely not Texas or contest style! I have my own way of teaching music reading that blows anything I've ever seen anyone else do out of the water. My students learn the entire range of the staff at their first music reading lesson instead of this note here that note there until they learn five or six notes in order play a simple melody. I've been down the essential elements for strings road and the like and while it may work for group classes to an extent, I believe it is a very faulty method for teaching music reading. I think learning by ear is awesome – in fact most of the licks I've ever learned I learned by transcribing them after listening to them. But there are so many materials out there in ABC format or musical notation that to completely disregard music reading is to thumb ones nose at a lot of great tunes. I personally like to use a mix of note reading and listening with my fiddle students.