Friday Volume 538 20 January 2012 No. 252

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Friday 20 January 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 967 20 JANUARY 2012 Point of Order 968

Hollingbery, George Penrose, John House of Commons Huppert, Dr Julian Phillips, Stephen Jones, Andrew Pound, Stephen Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Randall, rh Mr John Friday 20 January 2012 Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Kirby, Simon Reid, Mr Alan The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Leech, Mr John Sanders, Mr Adrian PRAYERS Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Lidington, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Lloyd, Stephen Slaughter, Mr Andy [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Lopresti, Jack Smith, rh Mr Andrew Lucas, Caroline Smith, Henry Point of Order Lucas, Ian Stewart, Bob Luff, Peter Stewart, Iain 9.33 am MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Syms, Mr Robert Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): On a point of Malhotra, Seema Tami, Mark order, Mr Speaker. May I ask for some advice? There Metcalfe, Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh are no more sitting Fridays for private Members’ Bills Michael, rh Alun Vaz, Valerie in this Session. Is it possible for the Backbench Business Mordaunt, Penny Vickers, Martin Committee to consider them if they are deferred today? Munn, Meg Walley, Joan Munt, Tessa Weatherley, Mike Mr Speaker: No, because the Standing Orders prevent Murray, Ian Webb, Steve that happening. I hope that is helpful, even if it is Neill, Robert Wheeler, Heather disappointing. Newton, Sarah White, Chris Nokes, Caroline Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I beg to O’Brien, Mr Stephen Yeo, Mr Tim move, That the House sit in private. O’Donnell, Fiona Tellers for the Noes: Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163). Owen, Albert Graham Jones and Penning, Mike Thomas Docherty The House divided: Ayes 5, Noes 99. Division No. 429] [9.35 am Question accordingly negatived. AYES Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): On a Baker, Steve Rees-Mogg, Jacob point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to draw your attention Chope, Mr Christopher Tellers for the Ayes: to the fact that my Bill, the Public Bodies (Sustainable Nuttall, Mr David Mr Peter Bone and Food) Bill, is item No. 10 on the Order Paper. Given the Offord, Mr Matthew Mr Philip Hollobone difficulties faced by Members, who are elected, in being unable to get a sitting date for valid Bills that should be NOES debated by the House, I wonder whether, when you visit Afriyie, Adam Fabricant, Michael the youth parliament in Kidsgrove, you could explain to Aldous, Peter Field, rh Mr Frank young people in my constituency the archaic procedures Alexander, Heidi Fitzpatrick, Jim of this House for getting proper legislation through. Barker, Gregory Foster, rh Mr Don Barwell, Gavin Gale, Sir Roger Mr Speaker: I welcome such a challenge. Bayley, Hugh Gapes, Mike Betts, Mr Clive Garnier, Mr Edward Thomas Docherty: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I Blomfield, Paul Gauke, Mr David am mindful of your advice to Ministers and I am sure Bottomley, Sir Peter Gibb, Mr Nick that you will have seen today that the Deputy Prime Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glen, John Minister’s statutory register of lobbyists has been leaked Bray, Angie Halfon, Robert to a large number of news outlets, rather than given to Brooke, Annette Hammond, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Hands, Greg the House. Has the Deputy Prime Minister sought you Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Rebecca out to offer a formal apology for that gross discourtesy? Buckland, Mr Robert Harris, Mr Tom Burns, rh Mr Simon Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Oliver Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) for Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David that point of order. The short answer is no; no such Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick conversation has taken place. What I say to the hon. Davey, Mr Edward Heyes, David Gentleman, whom I wish well for the weekend, is let us Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hodge, rh Margaret wait and see what Monday brings. 969 20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 970

Daylight Saving Bill Amendment 89, in clause 5, page 3, line 10, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Amendment 90, in clause 6, page 3, line 12, leave out Committee ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. Amendment 91, page 3, line 19, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. Clause 1 Amendment 71, in clause 8, page 3, line 34, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. REPORT TO BE PREPARED ON ADVANCING TIME Amendment 72, in clause 9, page 4, line 4, leave out ‘time’ and insert ‘summertime’. 9.45 pm Amendment 76, in clause 11, page 4, line 25, leave out Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I beg to ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. move amendment 59, page 1, line 3, leave out Amendment 61, in clause 12, page 4, line 35, leave out ‘the time for general purposes’ subsection (1). and insert Amendment 79, page 5, line 37, leave out subsection (8). ‘the period of summer time (within the meaning of the Summer Amendment 93, in clause 14, page 6, line 2, leave out Time Act 1972)’. ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’.

Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Mr Chope: I wish to introduce a discussion on the following: amendment 59 and the other 27 amendments, from Amendment 58, page 1, line 6, after ‘Ireland’, insert Members on all sides of the House, that you have ‘specifically including the interests and concerns of the principal included in this group, Mr Speaker. Before I outline the faith communities within the UK.’. reasoning behind amendment 59, I congratulate my Amendment 3, page 1, line 9, leave out clause 2. hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Amendment 63, in clause 2, page 1, line 11, after Harris) on having steered her first private Member’s Bill ‘group’, insert ‘of independent academic experts’. so far. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] As you know, Mr Speaker, I have been in this House for some 23 years Amendment 22, page 1, line 12, at end insert— and have never got a private Member’s Bill as far as my ‘(1A) Membership of the Group must be ratified by a hon. Friend, so she is to be congratulated. I did not resolution of both Houses of Parliament.’. oppose the Bill on Second Reading, because I hoped Amendment 64, page 2, line 1, leave out subsection (4). that I would be able to change it through amendment, Amendment 65, page 2, line 3, leave out subsection (5). should the opportunity arise. That is the background to where we are today. Amendment 12, page 2, line 6, at end insert— Amendment 59 is born of two deep-seated political ‘(6) Such terms of reference must include an investigation into the impact on energy consumption of advancing time by one convictions that I hold. First, I believe passionately in hour.’. the Union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That means that I support a single currency for Amendment 23, page 2, line 6, at end insert— the Union, the pound sterling, and a single time zone. I ‘(b) Membership of the Independent Oversight Group am a Conservative, as well. In other words, I do not must include at least one representative from each of support change unless there is an overwhelming case for the four nations of the United Kingdom.’. making it. Amendment 95, in clause 14, page 6, line 2, leave out ‘Daylight Saving’ and insert ‘European Time’. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My hon. Friend says Amendment 5, in clause 3, page 2, line 10, leave out that he is a passionate supporter of the Union, but subsection (2). another strong union is the United States, yet it has Amendment 25, page 2, line 14, leave out ‘18’ and different time zones. insert ‘24’. Mr Chope: I will not be drawn into having a discussion Amendment 60, in clause 4, page 2, line 19, leave out about the United States, because the Bill is fairly and ‘the time for general purposes’ and insert squarely about the United Kingdom, a far superior ‘the period of summer time (within the meaning of the Summertime country to the United States. I am not unfamiliar with Act 1972)’. the fact that there are countries with more than one Amendment 67, page 2, line 21, leave out ‘daylight time zone. Last weekend I was in Kazakhstan, which saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. has two time zones and, as my hon. Friend will know, is Amendment 68, page 2, line 23, leave out ‘daylight the ninth largest country in the world. saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. Amendment 69, page 2, line 28, leave out ‘daylight Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. worth pointing out that the coming power of the next century, China, has only the one time zone, and as we Amendment 81, page 2, line 32, leave out ‘daylight know from Noel Coward, China’s very big. saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. Amendment 83, page 2, line 36, leave out ‘daylight Mr Chope: I hope that we will have many similar saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. witty interventions from my hon. Friend during the day. Amendment 84, page 2, line 40, leave out ‘daylight saving’ and insert ‘summertime extension’. Mr Speaker: Order. Preferably relating to amendment 59. 971 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 972

Mr Chope: Absolutely, Mr Speaker, and of course the Gentleman agree that tourism and road safety are just other amendments in this group. as important in Wales as in other part of the United I believe that the original proposals in the Bill were Kingdom? contentious, divisive and essentially selfish. The rewriting of the Bill in Committee, at the behest of the Government, Mr Chope: Absolutely, and if the hon. Gentleman is has made it clear that we can have only one time zone in patient I hope to mention Wales in my remarks. the United Kingdom, which I think is a welcome measure Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): The hon. of support for the Union. However, the Bill’s Achilles Gentleman said earlier what a strong and passionate heel is that it has been redrafted in such a way that it advocate of the Union he was. Should not this United would enable the United Kingdom Government to change Kingdom Parliament therefore determine the time zone the time zone in Scotland without the consent of the for the whole United Kingdom? Scottish Parliament. We know that the Scottish Parliament, and MPs representing Scottish constituencies, do not Mr Chope: I agree, and that is exactly what we are support a change that would make winter mornings in doing, but my concern is that if this Parliament changes Scotland even colder and darker than they are already. the time zone for the United Kingdom against the wishes of the people of Scotland, it will give extra Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): For the ammunition to those people in Scotland who are record, I am here this morning to support the hon. campaigning for independence. We would be playing Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), and I spoke into their hands if we forced the Bill through. in a general debate in favour of the change the year before last. Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Is not the reality that we should have a review and see Mr Chope: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what the predominant opinion and the strongest arguments putting his support for the Bill on the record, but I am are on this important issue? If the general mood right sure he is not suggesting that his view is shared by all his across the UK is that we should have a change, and that colleagues from Scotland. sports clubs and tourism should have the advantages that it would bring, surely we should not be denied a Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) review simply because of the views of a small number of (SNP): To support the hon. Gentleman’s assertion, I people. point out that I was on a radio programme on BBC Mr Chope: As a lawyer, my hon. Friend will know Radio Scotland a number of months ago on which from having read my amendments that they do not rule there was a balance of contributions on daylight saving. out a review. Indeed, they support the idea, but would However, the overwhelming majority of callers to the confine it to the issue of extending British summer time programme were against the move. while leaving Greenwich mean time as it is at the moment. Mr Chope: Ifthatisso,andIamsureitis,wearein danger of embarking on a course that will waste an Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Does my enormous amount of public money and Government hon. Friend agree that the debates on the matter in time. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England ought and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton to be based on the research of Mayer Hillman, whose (Mr Davey), said in Committee that a trial involving booklet “Time for Change” points out that some of advancing all the clocks in the UK by one hour would those who would gain the most are in Scotland? not proceed “if there was clear opposition from any part of the country.”––[Official Mr Chope: It is easy for people to assert, in a rather Report, Daylight Saving Public Bill Committee, 7 December 2011; patronising way, that a particular measure will benefit c. 4.] people in Scotland, but on Second Reading some hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies expressed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, a completely different view. I would prefer to trust their Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey) indicated assent. assessment of their constituents’ wishes than rely upon some academic treatise, which I am afraid to tell my Mr Chope: I see the Minister nodding in agreement. hon. Friend I have not yet had the opportunity to look at. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am terribly Mr MacNeil: If there is any perception of high- worried, because I normally agree with my hon. Friend, handedness from Westminster, last week’s figure of but he says that Scotland has a right of veto, and I want 1,000 new members of the Scottish National party will to know who speaks for England. Does England have probably be dwarfed. That, of course, was through an opportunity to have its own view heard as well? www.snp.org/join. Mr Chope: Of course although, amazingly, the inquiry Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman and I are on the into the West Lothian question to which the Government same side on this issue, and I am not totally unfamiliar have committed themselves has been delayed and delayed. with Scotland because I had the privilege of spending four years as a university undergraduate there. I remember Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I am a little disturbed those cold mornings, as a keen undergraduate, getting that the debate is already going down the England-Scotland up early and facing the stiff east wind in the dark. I route. There is a Welsh dimension to it, and there is a understand and feel for the people in Scotland who are UK dimension to the whole thing. Does the hon. faced with the prospect of having even darker mornings. 973 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 974

Mr Tom Harris: The hon. Gentleman is making the very beneficial to the country’s economy. I see my hon. point that evidence should be discarded and the personal Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) opinions of individual Members should be set on a in his place. He will know that the night time economy higher level. Is he not in favour of evidence-based in Bournemouth is also flourishing and thriving. That is policy making? The Bill would allow the evidence for or not dependent on having this Bill on the statute book. against a change to be seen after a trial period. If the result of the trial was that my constituents were going Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Is not another piece to be put in greater danger, of course I would oppose a of evidence the fact that about £138 million a year permanent change at the end of the trial. Is he not in could be saved to the NHS by reducing the number of the same position? road casualties? Mr Chope: My difficulty is that there is nothing to prevent the Government from commissioning an inquiry Mr Chope: My hon. Friend refers to another piece of and getting the evidence that would enable the hon. evidence. I do not know whether it is correct. Gentleman to reach a decision on this contentious issue. I cannot understand why, if the Government Fiona Bruce: Apparently the figure comes from the support the Bill, they have not already embarked on Department for Transport’s estimates. getting a body of evidence together. That evidence could then be presented to the House and we could Mr Chope: As a former Transport Minister, far be it decide whether we thought, in the light of that evidence, from me to criticise the Department for Transport. I that we should make any changes to the clocks. I will have to say, though, that most of the alleged benefits—by refer to that in a bit more detail later. which I mean the reduction in the numbers of road casualties—would occur in Scotland, but given that Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Well, there is some road safety is, as I understand it, a devolved matter, if evidence, is there not? One might say that as a London the Scottish Parliament wishes to take action to improve MP I would say that, but the Greater London authority’s road safety, including by doing something along the economic experts have suggested that the UK economy lines suggested in the Bill, surely it must be a matter for would benefit by about £1 billion in all regions, not just the Scottish Parliament. I am conscious that on Second in London. There is already some evidence. Reading mention was made of the fact that during the last experiment in the north of Scotland, notwithstanding Mr Chope: Certainly there is, and my hon. Friend changes being made to drink-driving laws and so on, refers to it, but I believe that the Government and the the number of road casualties actually increased. promoter of the Bill accept that there is not enough evidence on which to take a decision. The Government Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): One are saying they need to gather more evidence, which of the most significant factors is that over the past year suggests that the evidence to which my hon. Friend the number of road accidents in Scotland has fallen. refers is not sufficient for either the promoter of the Bill Had we passed the Bill on its First Reading, we might or the Government. have misattributed that reduction to the effects of daylight. In actual fact, however, road accidents have far less to Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Does the hon. do with the amount of daylight than with other factors, Gentleman agree that there is evidence that upwards of such as how people drive and the weather conditions, 80,000 new jobs could come from the Bill, if it were for example. I urge caution over some of that evidence. implemented? Given the state of the economy, is it not crucial that when we have an opportunity, at little cost, to create new jobs, the House should support it? Mr Chope: The hon. Lady’s words are very wise. My experience as road safety Minister in the Department for Transport leads me to believe that we must be 10 am careful not to draw the wrong conclusions from experiments. Mr Chope: I am probably more in favour of developing My view is that a stronger law on drug-driving would new jobs in the economy through enterprise and have a significant impact on road safety in our country. competition than many other Members. My reading of But that is not a debate for this morning. the evidence so far is that those new jobs would come mainly from tourism. My amendment 59, which would Sir Peter Bottomley: The hon. Member for Banff and confine the experiment to extending British summer Buchan (Dr Whiteford) is right to say that the number time by 1 hour rather than interfering with Greenwich of road deaths fell from 5,600 a year in 1986 to 1,850 in meantime in the winter, would address the area that has Great Britain last year. The point is that when we the greatest potential benefit and which is most likely to change our clocks back, the number of deaths rises—that increase the number of jobs. happens regardless of the underlying level. If we are seriously interested in cutting the number of unnecessary Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Surely the hon. deaths, we have to go for this review, including for the Gentleman is not suggesting that tourism stops in the winter, but, as I understand it, my hon. Friend the winter in great cities such as London, York and Edinburgh. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is suggesting that we do not include winter in the review. Mr Chope: No, I am not suggesting that all. I am not suggesting that the only money to be made out of Mr Chope: My hon. Friend’s reading of my amendment tourism is during daylight hours. Indeed, there is a lot is absolutely right. We have already had a review of the of tourism in London in the night time economy that is winter, in the ’60s and early ’70s, but we never had a 975 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 976 review of what happens in the summer. I therefore think Mr MacNeil: These comments about the numbers of that the priority should be to have a review of the road deaths and accidents are misleading. The graph on summer. deaths in the mid to late ’60s shows their number falling before and during the trial but falling more steeply after Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): My hon. Friend it. It is possible to argue, therefore, that the trial delayed refers to a past review but he knows the figures and he the downward glide of the number of road fatalities knows perfectly well that it demonstrated conclusively and that there are people who died during that period that there was a reduction in the number of road traffic who might not have done had we not had those three accidents. years of dark winter mornings.

Mr Chope: In that case, why was the outcome of that Mr Chope: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. This review overwhelmingly rejected by Members of the shows how complicated the issue is and why ultimately House, who decided not to proceed with the experiment? it should be left to the judgment of Members of Parliament based on the evidence presented. Sir Peter Bottomley: The answer is simple: the politicians lost their nerve. The small increase in the morning was Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does heavily outweighed by the reduction in the afternoons the hon. Gentleman not accept that most accidents and evenings, yet the minority effect was taken as the happen during the period of the day that would benefit majority one. That is the kind of thing that can happen most from the change in time zones? outside the House, but it should not happen inside. We should pay attention to the majority arguments. Had Mr Chope: I am afraid that I do not accept that. One we accepted the review, we would never have gone back specious statistic that has been mentioned suggests that to what we have now, which has cost us 20,000 deaths more accidents involving children occur between 3 and and injuries in the past 30 years. 6 o’clock in the afternoon than between 7 and 10 in the morning. Of course, most children are at school from Mr Chope: My hon. Friend states that the politicians 8.30 am onwards, so between 8.30 and 10 am there are lost their nerve. I do not know whether that is correct, hardly any children around, whereas schools break up but surely the important thing is that the House, with for the day earlier than they used to, so there is a lot the combined political wisdom of all its Members, more activity on the road among children between ultimately takes the decision. Instead of leaving it, as 3 and 6 o’clock. To compare the morning period to the the Bill does, to the Government to introduce an order— afternoon period simplistically is not intellectually correct. albeit one that would have to be approved by affirmative order—the Government should introduce a Bill having Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): Does first gathered the evidence. That way we could vote on my hon. Friend agree that as the results of the previous the Bill in an informed way. review are disputed, and as this debate keeps turning into a debate about the evidence either way, there is Bob Stewart: Let us be quite clear. If there is evidence, even more need for a proper review with proper evidence as there seems to be, that changing how we run our that we can then debate? My hon. Friend speaks eloquently, clocks will save lives—according to the London estimate, and I hope one day to be able to emulate his eloquence, it would mean six fewer deaths and 23 fewer severe but is it not the case that the more we talk about the injuries a year—we have a duty to consider how we issue, the more we risk yet again denying the British manage our time. That is our responsibility as Parliament. public the opportunity to hear a debate balanced in evidence? Mr Chope: I do not wish to criticise my hon. Friend The subject has come back to the House again and in public but he will know that the outstanding Mayor again. This is possibly less a debate about the pros and of London introduced facilities to encourage more cycling cons of daylight saving than it is a debate about whether in London. It is possible to argue, from the figures that I internal process gets in the way of getting things done have seen, that as a consequence there have been more for the people outside the House. injuries and deaths among London cyclists, but I do not think that my hon. Friend would argue that we should Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I will ban cycling in London just because it might save lives. not be seduced by her generous comments. A review to collect, examine and analyse the evidence can be undertaken Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): On a by the Government now, without the need for any point of order, Mr Speaker. May I say how much we are legislation. If she thinks that that should be done—I enjoying the oration from my hon. Friend and constituency agree that it would be extremely helpful—it could be neighbour? It does seem, however, to be taking on the done without the Bill, if the Government had the will to feeling of a Second Reading— do something about it. That is why I have other concerns about how the Bill is drafted. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should resume his seat. I say to him for the avoidance of doubt that Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. were the debate taking that shape, I would intervene to We understand your response to my hon. Friend the prevent it, but it has not yet done so. I am grateful Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), but my to him for his solicitous concern for the debate but he hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) can happily leave it with me. now appears to be saying that we do not need the Bill. In my experience, that is not properly a matter for Mr Chope: Thank you, Mr Speaker. debate on an amendment. 977 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 978

Mr Speaker: The answer is that passing reference by also benefit from lighter evenings, because they do not the hon. Member for Christchurch to his view on the normally want to get up early in the morning to participate merits or demerits of the Bill is in order, but dilation on in those activities. that matter is not. For that reason, I think that the hon. Member for Christchurch would be well advised to take Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I have a gentle hint and focus on amendment 59, which gives a received a number of representations from constituents man of his experience, ingenuity and indefatigability who are clear that they want to enjoy an extra hour of considerable scope in any case. sport during the whole year. That would be delivered if, as many of us in the House want, the clocks were Mr Chope: I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, and to changed all year round. my hon. Friend for his point of order. For the sake of clarification, I was suggesting that the part of the Bill Mr Chope: With the greatest respect, I do not believe calling for the collection of evidence is not necessary, that that could be achieved unless we created more but we can develop those arguments in due course if daylight. There is a finite amount of daylight in the there are amendments pertinent to it. winter months. If we reduce the amount of daylight in The most important thing is that I should make some the mornings and increase it in the evenings, people will progress. I have not made much, owing to the number of still have little time to participate in sport during the interventions and the amount of interest in this group working day. of amendments. There is opposition to such a change in Scotland; I can see that there is some support as well. In Angie Bray: Nobody seeks to play sport at 7.30 in the the past year, the Government have basically done morning. They are more likely to do so at 4 in the nothing in relation to the Bill since Second Reading. afternoon. That is precisely what they would be able to They have not considered the evidence. If they had, we do if we were to make that change. might not need to allow up to 18 months for the proposed inquiry. At the moment, the Government Mr Chope: Again, it is dangerous to generalise. I do suggest that it could take 18 months rather than one not know about you, Mr Speaker, but some Members year. My amendment would reduce the scope of that of the House go jogging at 7.30 in the morning. It inquiry, thereby reducing the costs and enabling progress would be wrong to suggest that they should be excluded to be made more quickly. Those who want progress will from our discussions. At the moment, at 7.30 in the see merit in amendment 59, because it would focus the morning, daylight is just about breaking in London, but scope of any inquiry. if the Bill were passed and the clocks were changed, they would be jogging in darkness. Mr MacNeil: The effect of darkness has been asserted in the Chamber. In fact, the most dangerous hour on Mr Speaker: Order. Just before the hon. Gentleman the road is 3 o’clock in the afternoon, which is in gives way, and pursuant to the intervention that he has daylight all the time. Another point to bear in mind is just taken, I know that in focusing on amendment 59 that since the trial, the fatality rate has dropped from and the amendments with which it is grouped, he will about 7,500 a year to below 2,500 a year. The improvements want to turn his remarks to the preparation of the in road safety have been due to a number of other report on the costs and benefits of the time zone. factors. Daylight does not seem to be as big a factor as some Members would have us believe. Mr Chope: I agree absolutely, Mr Speaker.

10.15 am Hugh Bayley: There are 50 Members in the Chamber at the moment, all of whom have views on the Bill and Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. many of whom, like me, support it. The hon. Member I must get back to the amendments. I believe that for Christchurch (Mr Chope) has been speaking for most of the opposition to the Bill is based on concern more than half an hour. Does he believe that his views about moving away from Greenwich mean time in the are more important than those of the rest of us in the winter: that is, from the last weekend in October to Chamber, or will he sit down to give others the opportunity the last weekend in March. Those five months have the to speak as well? least daylight, and rebalancing the clock to achieve an extra hour of daylight in the evening can occur only at Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman says that I have been the expense of losing daylight at the time when most speaking for all that time. Actually, I have not. Much of people are starting their day and going to work or that time has been given to other people who have school. Most support for the Bill—certainly as evidenced sought to intervene. As a matter of courtesy, I have by the small number of my constituents who have allowed those interventions, in the same way that I written to me—is due to the fact that it would give allowed his. I hope that he will not misrepresent the longer evenings between April and October. situation and give a false impression. If one accepts those two propositions, it seems sensible to focus on extending British summer time rather than Hugh Bayley: I most certainly would not want to interfering with the application of Greenwich mean misrepresent the hon. Gentleman’s views, but the question time. It would be lighter later throughout the summer is simple: is he going to allow time for other Members and during much of the spring and autumn, satisfying to speak? those who want more time to play outdoor sport in the evenings. I have had representations from people who Mr Chope: I hope there will be plenty of time for play bowls in Christchurch. People who play cricket or other Members to speak. That is why I want to make tennis, or who indulge in golf, sailing or surfing would more progress in discussing these amendments. The 979 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 980 hon. Gentleman, who is a member of the Panel of from constituents, some of whom, for all I know, might Chairs, knows the rules of procedure and knows that be involved in the tourism industry. I have written back this amendment has been selected along with other to all such constituents and explained that I was concerned amendments, so it is reasonable that we should discuss about the integrity of the Union and believed that many it and others in the group. I am sure that the hon. of their concerns could be addressed by looking at Gentleman is not supporting the principle of the tyranny having an extension to British summer time while leaving of the majority. This House has made its reputation GMT unchanged. among the democracies of the world on the basis that it allows the minority to have their say. I believe that that Mr Ellwood: I am sorry that my hon. Friend has not is an important fundamental principle. had an opportunity to speak to tourism operators in his constituency. He will know that his constituency is next Hugh Bayley: It is a simple question: is the hon. door to mine, and I have had a chance to visit the Gentleman trying to talk out this Bill or does he believe tourism operators in his constituency. I apologise for that others should be able to express their views, as they not letting him know in advance, but they were and are have the same right to speak as he enjoys? very much in favour of this Bill. I add that we are Mr Chope: It is basically the luck of the draw. If an supposed to be debating the report and that people’s hon. Member’s amendment is selected as the lead attitude to my hon. Friend’s idea of not moving the amendment in a group, it is obviously that hon. Member’s clocks in winter but only in summer could be discovered responsibility to speak to that amendment and conduct when people react to the Government’s request for a debate around it. [Interruption.] I think this is developing information when the report is put together. My hon. into a rather puerile discussion. Friend’s amendment and request are, in effect, already in the Bill as it stands. Jacob Rees-Mogg: There are 28 amendments in this group. If my hon. Friend were to devote just five Mr Chope: I am almost lost for words. My hon. minutes to discussing each one, it would take two hours Friend has come into my constituency on I do not know and 20 minutes. Surely that is what we want—a proper how many occasions to talk to I know not which discussion of all the issues, amendment by amendment. businesses about the Bill. I hope that he told them that their prime responsibility should be to communicate Mr Chope: I shall come on to the other amendments with me as the Member for Christchurch rather than seriatim, but I doubt whether I shall speak at such through him as the Member for Bournemouth, East. Be length as my hon. Friend suggests. that as it may, I have yet to hear from these businesses. They might be run by people who are resident in my Sir Peter Bottomley: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s hon. Friend’s constituency, so I have no problem with response to my hon. Friend the Member for North East that. With the greatest respect, my hon. Friend Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), because the attitude of misunderstands the purpose of amendment 59, which is the latter was the kind of thing that helped to delay the to bring some focus and simplicity to this issue by abolition of slavery for generations and stopped Samuel concentrating on the summer months rather than Plimsoll from getting a white line painted on ships to complicating matters by including GMT. make sure that they did not turn over because they were overladen. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is right; he should get on. Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that tourism is more a function of temperature and that it Mr Chope: Let me summarise what I think is the dies down in the winter months because it is colder? If strength of the argument for amendment 59. It would any group of people can get up an hour earlier, take ensure that the change applied only to seven months of advantage of the entirety of the daylight and are free to the year, so it would take less time and cost less to do so it those who go on holiday. On holiday, we can prepare and publish a report, for which clause 1 provides. choose when we go to bed and when we get up without The straight pro rata saving would be, on my calculation, reference to an employer or anybody else. about 40% in time and cost—well worth while in an age of austerity. The savings should be even greater, because Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful the most contentious area of inquiry would not have to and persuasive point—one that I must admit I had not be addressed—namely, the costs and benefits of advancing considered. He makes a worthwhile addition to our GMT by one hour in the winter across the whole of the deliberations on this aspect of the Bill. United Kingdom. Before moving on to other amendments in the group, Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I have received I urge the Minister to give his unqualified support to many representations from the tourism sector in Thanet. Government research on the potential costs and benefits My hon. Friend talks about reducing Greenwich mean of my proposal in the event of this Bill not reaching the time, but would it not be much simpler to do this statute book this Session. The Government do not need universally right across the year? How many representations legislation or even the authority of the House to prepare has my hon. Friend had from his tourism sector locally a report. I have noted a certain reluctance on the part of because, as I say, I have had a huge amount of them and the Government to engage in the lively debate consequent he represents a similar coastal community? on the introduction of this Bill. If the Government are supportive of the Bill, as amended at their insistence in Mr Chope: I am sure that I represent a similar coastal Committee, why have they not already produced or community, but I have to tell my hon. Friend that I am started work on producing a report from experts? I shall not aware of having received a single representation not be rude to the Government by suggesting that they from the tourism industry, although I have had a number have been sitting on the fence and wanting to have it 981 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 982

[Mr Chope] That is probably one reason why he has misgivings about aspects of this Bill, as do a number of other hon. both ways. That is not my nature, but I think that the Members. Government and the Minister have to answer a number of questions about this matter. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): As my amendment was mentioned, I am anxious to ensure that it is not At the behest of my hon. Friend the Member for misrepresented. Does my hon. Friend agree that it does North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), let me turn not say that the concerns of those faith groups should briefly to some of the other amendments in the group. take precedence over everybody else’s view? The amendment Amendment 58, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member merely asks that regard be given to their concerns when for Shipley (Philip Davies) and others, picks up a concern a decision is taken. articulated in Committee that the Bill’s proposals could impact particularly adversely on faith communities. Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for The amendment would require the Secretary of State to making that point. have specific regard to Amendment 3 stands in the name of my hon. Friend “the interests and concerns of the principal faith communities” the Member for North East Somerset and I look forward in the UK. It seems a perfectly sensible amendment to to hearing his speech in support of it. The amendment me, as I would expect any amendment by my hon. proposes to leave out clause 2, and I may well share the Friend to be. If amendment 59 were carried, however, I scepticism of my hon. Friends who have supported that believe that many of the concerns of faith communities amendment, because they obviously feel that the Bill such as Orthodox Jews would be addressed in any case would be better if it made no reference to what is because their concerns are centred principally around described as the “Independent Oversight Group”. having darker mornings rather than lighter summer One thing seems to be absolutely clear: this so-called evenings. I recognise that amendment 59 would not “Independent Oversight Group” will not be independent satisfy amateur astronomers who would have to stay up of the Government. Its members will be chosen by the even later to get a good view of the stars, but it would Secretary of State, who will be able to remove them on a address the concerns underlying amendment 58. whim, and subsection (3) provides that they will not even be entitled to have all their expenses defrayed, because instead of using the word “must” the Bill refers Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): In fact, many only to “may” in this regard. They will not be allowed to astronomical phenomena take place early in the morning, choose their own terms of reference and they will have so it might not be so clear cut for astronomers as my to do as they are told by the Secretary of State, even to hon. Friend believes. the extent that he will be able to order them not to publish their advice quickly. They might produce their Mr Chope: Again, my hon. Friend makes the point report quickly, but the clause means that the Secretary well, based on his experience—I am sorry that I do not of State will be able to say to them that they should not have any experience of stargazing in the early mornings. produce the report based on their findings until a given time, perhaps closer to a year or 18 months after they 10.30 am had been asked to start their work. So I can understand the scepticism. Mr Andrew Smith: We all respect the convictions of My hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough religious minorities and the obligations imposed on (Mr Bone) and for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), and I their members, but is the hon. Gentleman suggesting have tabled the more modest amendment 63, which that more weight should be given to them than to the would require the independent group to be comprised views of the rest of the population? of “independent academic experts”. We did so not because we believed that a group of independent academics Mr Chope: My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley is necessarily best suited to this task, but because the will be able to answer that question, because it relates to Minister promised in Committee that the group would his amendment. I certainly think that the representations be so limited and the amendment would prevent him of mainstream religious organisations—the reference is from changing his mind later. The amendment would to the mainstream, rather than to any quirky group—should also provide the opportunity to probe him further as to be taken into account. how and why he believes that independent academic experts are the best people to advise on a report on the Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): My hon. Friend potential costs and benefits. is making an eloquent speech and is listening to all I have been campaigning for a long time for the sections of opinion within the House. Does he agree Government to carry out work and produce a that we should consider not only economic issues and comprehensive report on the costs and benefits of UK concerns, but quality and well-being issues, such as the membership of the European Union. I find it interesting impact that the Bill would have on people’s religious that although the Government resolutely refuse to do observance, which many of my constituents have contacted that, they are prepared to contemplate such an inquiry me about? into the costs and benefits of changing the time zones within this country. Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a good point—of Mr MacNeil: Did the hon. Gentleman fear, as I did course he is a signatory to amendment 58 and he made when I heard the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob the same point in Committee. This is about not only Stewart) talk about sharing a time zone with Europe, collecting evidence, but evaluating that evidence using creeping Euro-harmonisation, which perhaps would not the relevant criteria, including those to which he refers. be helpful at all in this instance? 983 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 984

Mr Chope: I am much more in favour of harmony Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is right, as that was what than harmonisation, particularly on the European Union. was said in Committee. If one closely reads the Bill, Amendment 22, which again stands in the name of however, one sees that it does not say that at all. It gives my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, states: the impression that the oversight group might be able to “Membership of the Group must be ratified by a resolution of give some advice on policy rather than just being a both Houses of Parliament.” group of technocrats, but that is not what the Minister It introduces a modest safeguard to try to ensure that said in Committee. My hon. Friend is right to recall that the group is truly independent. What could be wrong in Committee we were told that this would be a technical with this House having an opportunity to ratify the group, but that is not what is on the face of the Bill. As a membership of the group or to table amendments to very experienced legislator, he knows that we must remove individual members from or add them to it? judge things on the basis of what is in the Bill rather than on what the Government say they intend. That is Philip Davies: Given the slightly different tack that the background. my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset Amendment 65, which was again tabled by me and and I have taken in our amendments, does my hon. my hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) feel for Gainsborough would leave out clause 2(5). The that if my amendment were accepted, the necessary subsection is a major constraint on the independence of safeguards would be in place and he would then be the group. It appears from what the Minister said in happy for the independent oversight group to take Committee that the Government want the group to shape? establish facts but not to give too much, if any, advice Mr Chope: It would go some way to addressing the to the Government. If the Government are choosing problem, but what the amendment in the name of my and controlling the membership of the group, however, hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset bears why are they not willing to trust its members to behave out is that there is a certain amount of scepticism about responsibly and bring forward a comprehensive report whether the “Independent Oversight Group”will actually of their own choosing? It is very difficult to find the best be independent. Giving this House the opportunity to people to serve on independent groups, but it will be ratify the membership or otherwise might obviously much more difficult to get the best people on to this provide some safeguard, but this is not my preferred group if they know that they are joining a group that approach. If amendment 22 was, however, incorporated will not be independent and that they will not be able in the Bill, a Select Committee could perhaps try to get to use their judgment because they are always beholden involved in the process and interview the people who to the Government, who will be looking over their were going to be cited on the Order Paper as appointments shoulder. Leaving out that subsection would enhance needing ratification from this House. the independence of the group. Amendment 12, tabled by the hon. Member for Argyll Philip Davies: But if we accepted amendments that and Bute (Mr Reid), would require the terms of reference made this group genuinely independent, surely that to include an investigation into the impact on energy would be better than having no independent oversight consumption of advancing time by one hour. One might group at all. assume that such an investigation would be essential if Mr Chope: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend the group were to produce a definitive report on the about that. potential costs and benefits. The amendment, however, Amendment 64 stands in my name and those of my exposes the fact that the Secretary of State could specifically hon. Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for prevent the group from looking into such a matter. Gainsborough. It proposes to omit subsection (4) from Some might say that I am being unduly suspicious of clause 2—this is the subsection that, above all, constrains the Government and might ask what possible motive the activities of the so-called “Independent Oversight there could be for their doing that, but we know from Group”. From the Government’s perspective, the group the experience in Indiana that, with darker mornings, can be independent, provided that it does as the more energy was consumed than was offset by the Government say—I shall try to illustrate that with two reduction in energy use in the lighter evenings. I see that specific examples. Under this subsection, the Secretary the hon. Gentleman is nodding in agreement. of State could prevent the group from examining separately the issues of whether to have experiments advancing the Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): The hon. clocks by one hour: in the summer alone; in the winter Gentleman mentions an important point about the alone; or across the whole year. Why do the Government Indiana study, and there was also a study in this country. insist on holding the whip hand? Another example of The Building Research Establishment conducted some what could happen unless subsection (4) is removed is modelling in 2005 and found that advancing the time by that the Government could prevent the publication of one hour would increase energy consumption and CO2 any minority report from the group. They could suppress emissions by 2%. That is why the investigation into the dissent, because although the group might contain people energy consumption is extremely important. who took a different view from the majority, the Government would be able to use their powers to say, Mr Chope: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for “You are not allowed to produce a minority report.” taking the opportunity to explain a bit more about his amendment. Sir Peter Bottomley: I often think that I understand what is going on. I thought that the oversight group was Bob Stewart: I accept that point, but my hon. Friend supposed to look at methodologies—the sort of thing must also accept that there is other evidence. For example, for dry statisticians, rather than for people with strong in London, there will be an annual reduction of 80,000 personal views about what the outcome should be. tonnes of CO2 and energy savings of £20 million a year. 985 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 986

[Bob Stewart] If amendment 59 were accepted, the group would have less work to do but, in any event, surely one year is long We do not know the facts, which is all the more reason enough for its work. If the group’s members know that why we should have a trial to find them out as best we they have a chance of extending their work by another can. six months, they might be tempted to do so, but they should get down to the work they are being asked to do. Mr Chope: In that case, my hon. Friend will obviously In this country, we have a tendency to delay and delay be very supportive of amendment 12. It would ensure and to think that that is a solution to our problems. As I that the facts to which he has just referred would have said earlier, last weekend I was in Kazakhstan, where to be examined by the independent panel. I am sure that they have built a new city of 800,000 people in less than our hon. Friend—if we can call him that as a member 15 years. If they can do that in 15 years, why will it take of the coalition—the Member for Argyll and Bute more than a year for this group to consider such a would be very supportive of the view taken by my hon. modest issue? We tolerate delay to far too great an Friend the Member for Beckenham. I hope that amendment extent and if we want to get on with this, we should get 12 will find favour with the Government and with the on with it—I hope my hon. Friend the Member for promoter of the Bill. Castle Point, who is promoting the Bill, would agree—for That brings me to amendment 23, tabled by my hon. better or for worse. We should not, however, use the Friend the Member for Shipley, which would require delaying tactic. the independent oversight group to have at least one That brings me to amendment 25. I am rushing member from each of England, Scotland, Wales and through these amendments, but I think it is important Northern Ireland. That seems eminently sensible, because to address them. Sometimes, the people who are impatient what can the Bill’s promoter or the Government have to take the debate forward try to move a closure motion, against having somebody from each of the four nations which means that Members with amendments in the of the United Kingdom represented on the group? lead group do not have a chance to speak about them before there is an attempt to curtail such debate by Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will my hon. Friend assure me using the procedures of the House. What I am doing by that if that amendment were passed, the representative going through these amendments seriatim is giving from England would come from Somerset? those who tabled them the opportunity to expand on them if they so wish. In any event, I am ensuring that 10.45 am the full nature and extent of the amendments is officially on the record so that if the Bill goes to the other place Mr Chope: I should have anticipated my hon. Friend’s for debate, those who pick up these issues there will be intervention; I am sure that the Government would able to look at the report of today’s proceedings and wish to receive representations and would be very decide which, if any, of the amendments find favour sympathetic towards representations along those lines. with them. Let us hope that that is so. As somebody who spent quite a lot of my late childhood in Cornwall, I think it Amendment 25 would leave out “18” and insert “24” would also be useful to have a representative from in line 14 of subsection 2(b). This is the only one of the England who came from the far south-west, as the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for circumstances there are rather different from those in Shipley with which I do not agree. I think it contradicts what might be described as the soft south-east. I do not absolutely amendment 5, which he has also signed. know what, if anything, the Government have against the amendment. I know that in Committee it was proposed Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is right that it does, that the independent panel should have three experts but the time scale for the independent oversight group from each of the four nations comprising the United surely depends on its terms of reference. The amendment Kingdom. This amendment is modest in comparison, was tabled in case the terms of reference were extended but it introduces a worthwhile safeguard to ensure that in the way I have requested, considering the impact on any report is fully informed by the perspective of all other faith groups, and the way the hon. Member for parts of the United Kingdom. Argyll and Bute mentioned, considering energy consumption. If those amendments were accepted, the Amendment 95, tabled by my hon. Friends the Members group would need longer to consider those issues, but if for Shipley, for Hendon (Mr Offord) and for Hertsmere they were not accepted, the shorter period of time that (Mr Clappison) and others, addresses the same issue as my hon. Friend mentioned earlier would be more than amendment 58 in slightly different language. The acceptable. amendment talks about the impact and effect on the practices of the mainstream faith groups in the United Kingdom. It is a very sensible amendment although, as Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for with amendment 58, if my amendment 59 were agreed, explaining the thinking behind amendment 25. it would be redundant. On the amendments relating to clause 4, amendment 60 Amendment 5, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member is consequential on amendment 59. Clause 4 gives the for North East Somerset and supported by my hon. Secretary of State the power to make an order advancing Friend the Member for Shipley, me and my hon. Friends the time in the United Kingdom throughout the year by the Members for Wellingborough and for Gainsborough, one hour. Following on from my lead amendment 59, would leave out clause 3(2). Clause 3(1) requires the amendment 60 would restrict that power to advancing Secretary of State to publish the report of the independent summer time alone by one hour. oversight group within one year of Royal Assent, but Amendment 67, in my name and those of my hon. subsection (2) gives the group a possible additional six Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for months. Why? Why do they need an additional six months? Gainsborough, would change the name of such an 987 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 988 order from a “daylight saving” order to a “summertime documents before us today and they enable us to consider extension” order. That wording would promote both these issues and the amendments. I therefore think that accuracy and transparency. Frankly, I object strongly to hard copy documents relating to this very important the expression “daylight saving” because it is against issue should be available to individuals, organisations nature to be able to save daylight. I think the Bill’s and businesses the length and breadth of the United promoter is effectively committing daylight robbery of Kingdom and that to publish such documents merely the English language in using that expression. on an internet site would be a false economy.

Sir Peter Bottomley: Was it not the expression that Mr Nuttall: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Sir Winston Churchill used when he brought in daylight In view of the importance of this matter, can he assure saving during the war? me that that amendment will be pushed to a Division if it is not accepted? Mr Chope: The expression might have been used by that distinguished former leader of our country during Mr Chope: I cannot assure my hon. Friend about wartime, but we know that in a wartime atmosphere that, because there is a large number of amendments in people sometimes use expressions that are designed to this group and, ultimately, it is within the discretion of raise morale but that might not be 100% in line with the the person in the Chair—in this case the Deputy English language. If that was what happened, and I Speaker—to decide how many amendments on which have no reason to doubt my hon. Friend, that is probably he is prepared to allow a Division. However, the point what caused Sir Winston Churchill to lapse into that that my hon. Friend makes about this is very— sort of language, which is not appropriate in legislation. I do not think my hon. Friend is suggesting that Sir Mr Ellwood: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Winston Churchill had that language incorporated in a I seek your guidance. Can you make a judgment on piece of legislation. Standing Order No. 37, the Golding closure, please? That brings me to a group of 11 amendments that are identical to amendment 67, but I would be trying the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): The hon. patience of the House if I did anything other than say Gentleman would have to claim to move the closure that those amendments—to lines 23, 28, 32, 36 and 40 under Standing Order No. 29. I think that might be his of clause 4, to line 10 of clause 5, to lines 12 and 19 of intention. clause 6, to line 34 of clause 8, to line 25 of clause 11 and to line 2 of clause 14—all change the wording from Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): “daylight saving” to “summertime extension”. I beg to move, That the Question be now proposed. Amendment 72 in clause 9, line 4, would delete “time” and insert “summertime”. Clause 9 addresses Mr Deputy Speaker: Under Standing Order No. 29, I what happens at the end of any trial period, and the am required to put the Question on the motion that the amendment would give the Secretary of State the option Question is now proposed forthwith—this Standing of advancing summer time by one hour permanently. Order was last used in 1987—unless it shall appear to Amendment 61, in my name and those of my hon. the Chair that such a motion is an abuse of the rules of Friends the Members for Wellingborough and for the House. Gainsborough, in clause 12, page 4, line 35, would leave Question put forthwith, That the Question now be out subsection (1). Clause 12 is the interpretation clause proposed. and subsection (1) defines what is meant by the expression The House proceeded to a Division. “advancing the time for general purposes in the United Kingdom”. That is an extraordinary expression to incorporate in a Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the piece of legislation. Clause 12 says that it means adding Serjeant at Arms to investigate a delay in the No Lobby. one hour to Greenwich mean time in the winter and one The House having divided: Ayes 119, Noes 10. hour to summer time in the summer. As I hope is apparent from my introductory remarks, I regard adding Division No. 430] [10.58 am an hour to Greenwich mean time in the winter as AYES unacceptable—hence my amendment. Amendment 79 is the last amendment to which I Afriyie, Adam Buck, Ms Karen Aldous, Peter Buckland, Mr Robert need to speak in the Chamber. [Interruption.] I hear Alexander, Heidi Burns, rh Mr Simon people saying, “Hear, Hear”, and I agree. It has taken Barker, Gregory Collins, Damian much longer to discuss this group of amendments than Barwell, Gavin Colvile, Oliver I expected, but that is because of the lively interest that Bayley, Hugh Davey, Mr Edward so many Members have shown in the content of the Bell, Sir Stuart Docherty, Thomas various amendments in the group. Amendment 79 would Betts, Mr Clive Dowd, Jim leave out subsection (8) of clause 12. In a sense, this is a Blomfield, Paul Ellison, Jane completely different topic than anything I have spoken Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias about hitherto. I do not know whether everybody has Bradley, Karen Fabricant, Michael looked at subsection (8), but it provides that Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Field, rh Mr Frank Brake, rh Tom Field, Mark “A duty under this Act to publish a document may be complied Bray, Angie Foster, rh Mr Don with by publishing it on an internet site.” Brine, Steve Gale, Sir Roger I think that is wholly unsatisfactory. The issues raised in Brooke, Annette Gapes, Mike the Bill are far too important not to be the subject of Bruce, Fiona Gauke, Mr David physical, hard copy documents. Indeed, we have such Bryant, Chris Gibb, Mr Nick 989 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 990

Glen, John Morris, David It is quite clear that we should do that and I hope that Goldsmith, Zac Munn, Meg the amendment is rejected and that we move on to the Halfon, Robert Munt, Tessa other two groups of amendments. Hammond, Stephen Murray, Ian Hancock, Matthew Neill, Robert Mr Deputy Speaker: I am sure that there will be no Hands, Greg Newton, Sarah more non-points of order. Harris, Rebecca Nokes, Caroline Harris, Mr Tom O’Brien, Mr Stephen Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Owen, Albert 11.15 am Heald, Oliver Pawsey, Mark Heath, Mr David Penning, Mike Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): I am sure you Herbert, rh Nick Penrose, John will be relieved to know that I will be brief, Mr. Deputy Heyes, David Phillips, Stephen Speaker. The Bill strikes precisely the right balance on Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen oversight without overburdening the working times of Hodge, rh Margaret Randall, rh Mr John the House. I am mindful of the needs of religious Hollingbery, George Ruddock, rh Dame Joan communities and for their observances to be considered, Hollobone, Mr Philip Rutley, David as well as of the crucial importance of considering Howarth, Mr Gerald Sanders, Mr Adrian energy consumption. I envisage that that will be done in Hughes, rh Simon Sandys, Laura a robust, academically researched review, with a strong Huhne, rh Chris Seabeck, Alison Huppert, Dr Julian oversight committee to consider the matter, which will Sheerman, Mr Barry Jackson, Glenda be vital to ensure public confidence in the research. We Jarvis, Dan Slaughter, Mr Andy have already seen this morning that there are many Jones, Andrew Smith, rh Mr Andrew different views on the potentialities of this measure in Jones, Graham Smith, Julian both summer and winter, so it is crucial that they be Jowell, rh Tessa Stewart, Bob considered. That is why I oppose the amendments, and Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Syms, Mr Robert I urge the House to do so today. Kelly, Chris Tami, Mark Kirby, Simon Tredinnick, David Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I too will be Knight, rh Mr Greg Vara, Mr Shailesh brief. I just want to take the opportunity to pay a Lazarowicz, Mark Vaz, Valerie glowing tribute to the hon. Member for Castle Point Leech, Mr John Vickers, Martin (Rebecca Harris), who has brought the Bill to the Lidington, rh Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa House. She has conducted herself in a manner that Lloyd, Stephen Walley, Joan Lopresti, Jack every hon. Member should follow; she has been constructive Weatherley, Mike in her dealings with the Government and the Opposition Lucas, Caroline Webb, Steve Luff, Peter on the Bill, not just with regard to today’s amendments, Wheeler, Heather but in Committee at the beginning of December. She Macleod, Mary White, Chris Malhotra, Seema deserves great credit for introducing the Bill. Whitehead, Dr Alan McCarthy, Kerry Yeo, Mr Tim I hope that not too many Members feel that this is McDonnell, John Groundhog day. As a new Member, I have not debated Metcalfe, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: daylight savings before in the House, but many Members Michael, rh Alun Charlotte Leslie and who have been here for slightly longer than I have will Mordaunt, Penny Dr Phillip Lee have had a number of such opportunities. As I said in Committee, I hope that we can conclude today’s debate, NOES reach Third Reading and get moving on the Bill before Baker, Steve Reid, Mr Alan it gets dark. That in itself would be a great tribute to the Bone, Mr Peter Stewart, Iain Bill. Chope, Mr Christopher Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hosie, Stewart Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tellers for the Noes: Offord, Mr Matthew Mr David Nuttall and Ian Murray: I will not give way, if the hon. Gentleman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Philip Davies does not mind, because we want to move on. It is important that the Minister hears the debate on the Question accordingly agreed to. amendments in the first group, which relate to the independent oversight group that will look after how we Mr Chope: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. go forward with the in-depth report. There have been I was about to bring my remarks to a quick conclusion calls for faith groups to be consulted, and that is important. because I had already discussed all the amendments, The energy issues put forward by the hon. Member for but I can tell all those who supported the motion that I Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) should be at the top of the do not hold any animus against them. agenda. At a time when the Government are cutting too far and too fast and household incomes are—[Interruption.] Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Mr. Chope, It does not actually say that here, as someone claims you are such a magnanimous Member. from a sedentary position, but everyone in the country knows that the Government are going too far and too Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy fast. Perhaps if those on the Treasury Bench would Speaker. May I briefly say that the issue underlying the listen to Opposition Members, we might be a little amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for further forward in terms of growth. I was making a Christchurch (Mr Chope) is whether we will align our serious point about energy, and such matters have to be waking hours and working hours to the available daylight? taken into account. 991 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 992

The Minister has to be clear and specific about the with the EU directive on summer time arrangements, role to be played by the devolved Administrations in which has been in force for many years. The House putting together the report. might wish to reflect—

Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Chope: Will the Minister give way? Mr Davey: No. Ian Murray: I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman The House might wish to reflect— will have an opportunity to speak. I commend the hon. Lady for bringing the Bill to this Mr Chope: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. stage in the House and I hope that we can at least Can you advise me whether it is in accordance with the conclude its Third Reading this morning. traditions and courtesies of the House for the Minister to refuse to give way to the proposer of the amendment Mr Davey: I concur with the hon. Member for Edinburgh under discussion? South (Ian Murray) in his praise for my hon. Friend the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Mr Chope, Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris). May I laser as a long-serving Member of the House, you know, as I beam-like and briefly focus on the amendments? do, that it is up to the Minister whether he gives way or Amendment 3 talks about the independent oversight not. group. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) seemed to misunderstand what the group is about. It is Mr Davey: I am showing the hon. Gentleman the about providing the appropriate challenge to the evidence courtesy that he showed to the other Members of the and methodologies to ensure that they are robust. House who wished to speak on this matter. Amendment 3, which would dispense with the independent The House might wish to reflect on the fact that, oversight group entirely, would be a retrograde step. when the directive was passed, other member states The Committee welcomed the way in which we had changed their dates to coincide with those of the United approached the issue of the oversight group. Kingdom. I therefore do not think that we should The amendments that seek to change the membership change the nature of the Bill promoted by my hon. of the group misunderstand the role of the group. They Friend the Member for Castle Point and amended in seek to suggest that it is about representation, when it is Committee. We should now proceed to debate the next not. Trying to confine it to academics only would be a group of amendments. mistake. There might be an appropriate expert who Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I had intended, might not be described as an academic. I hope the along with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, House will understand that the oversight group is formed Heeley (Meg Munn), to speak in the debate this morning in the right way with the right terms of reference. I am in support of the Bill, and to draw the House’s attention surprised that Members want to amend the terms of to the South Yorkshire Safer Roads Partnership and to reference to make them more prescriptive, because that the impact that the Bill would have on reducing road could narrow them down. accidents. I will not now do so, in the interest of saving Members have talked about the faith impact. time, but I would like to make the point that I have been Amendment 95 is not needed, because it is clear that lobbied on this issue by a wide variety of constituents. this is one of the qualitative potential effects that the Unusually, I hope that they are not watching the debate report would look at. To reassure hon. Members further, today, because if they are, they will be appalled by the I can say that specific legal provision requiring that the attempts of a tiny minority of Members to frustrate the impact on faith communities be considered is unnecessary overwhelming will of the House and of the country to because the Secretary of Sate is subject to the public support the Bill. sector equality duty in the Equality Act 2010. So, in preparing the report and taking a view on whether to Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wish to speak to my amendments exercise the powers for a trial, the Secretary of Sate 3 and 5, and to speak more broadly to some of the other would be required under that duty to take into account amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for the impact that a change might have on people of a Christchurch (Mr Chope). However, I hope that I do particular faith and, indeed, on other people with protected not do so at such length that my hon. and learned characteristics. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) decides to move a motion to get me Mr MacNeil: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. to shut up—the Commons equivalent of the Lords Is it in order for the Minister to speak so quickly that it procedure to move that is hard for him to be understood? “the noble Lord be no longer heard”. We have just heard from the Minister, and I listened Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not to him with great interest. a point of order. It is up to the Minister how quickly he speaks. We do not place a limit on how fast or how Mr MacNeil: I am impressed that the hon. Gentleman slowly Ministers speak, and thank goodness for that. listened to the Minister. Was he able to understand, or even catch, some of the words that he enunciated? Mr Davey: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for I should like to speak to the lead amendment in this his question; it is always good to have an intervention group, amendment 59, which seeks to turn the Bill into from him. I did manage to understand the Minister—or a summer time extension Bill by changing the dates on at least, I think I did—but I was shocked by what I which summer time ends. I think that the hon. Member heard. Once again, we heard that this House must be for Christchurch realises that that would not be compatible craven in front of the great power that is the European 993 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 994

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] our step and go to work with enthusiasm, full of beans and ready to face the world, and sacrifice a little bit of Union. We cannot even set our own time any more daylight at teatime? without the say-so of our friends in Brussels, and that is In seeking to leave us on summer time, my hon. a pretty sorry state to have got into. Friend’s amendment would allow all the supposed advantages to be investigated, including having an extra Mr MacNeil: On the point about harmonisation with hour of daylight in the evenings so that people could Europe, many people have mentioned the costs for have their barbecues and all that sort of thing, but it businesses. Surely, however, that argument should apply would not upset the mornings. That is particularly in reverse. If the gains are so great, would not the important for our friends in Scotland, which is why I Eurocrats want to change so as to be in the same time want to mention amendment 23. zone as the world financial centre that is London? Perhaps this reveals the lie in the argument: there is no Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his gain. The gain would be greater for those on the other support for my amendment 59. Did he notice that, side of the English channel than for those on the north when the Minister made his very brief response to my side. amendment, he completely misrepresented the effect that it would have? He suggested that it would alter the Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman makes an date on which summer time came to an end, and excellent point, as he so often does. Na h-Eileanan an thereby cause problems with the European Union. He Iar is enormously well represented in the House, and it was wrong about that. is one of the great arguments for maintaining the Union that he should continue to have an audience here for his Jacob Rees-Mogg: There is another amendment, tabled wise words. I wanted to propose the introduction of by other hon. Members, that would have that effect. I Somerset time, a new time zone for the world, which the take my hon. Friend’s very valid point, however. He was Europeans could come over to. Sadly, however, my not proposing to change the dates on which summer amendment was not selected, for reasons that I fail to time comes into force. understand. The mysteries of this place to a relatively new Member remain manifold. Mr Tom Harris: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s I should like to speak briefly to amendment 59 before contribution, although I am disappointed that he is I come to my own amendments. It is a wonderfully wise being rather flippant about such a serious issue. He has amendment, because it understands that in the winter mentioned the sacrifice of a spring in our step as we get there is a shortage of daylight and that Greenwich up in the morning, as though that is the only sacrifice to mean time has the great advantage—a somewhat old- be made. I am slightly more concerned about the number fashioned one, perhaps—of the sun being at its highest of road accidents in my constituency and throughout point at noon. This gives us an even balance of sunlight Scotland. The sacrifice of people’s lives and health and during the course of the day. the level of their injuries are slightly more important than whether we get up from our beds with a spring in Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is making an our step. important point. Surely midday is not called midday by accident. It is called midday because it is in the middle Jacob Rees-Mogg: I have the greatest respect for the of the day. hon. Gentleman and, had I thought that he would welcome it, I would have supported his candidacy for Jacob Rees-Mogg: As always, my hon. Friend makes the Labour leadership in Scotland. I kept very quiet a wise and pertinent intervention. about that, however, because I thought that I might do him more harm than good. There has been one occasion in history on which daylight was extended. Those hon. Members who are As has been pointed out by other Members, particularly up on their Bible will remember their studies from their my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar student days. They will recall the book of Joshua, (Mr MacNeil), it is easy to argue about such statistics. chapter 10, verse 13: Given the general trend in the reduction in the number of casualties on the roads, the arguments are not as “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed until the people straightforwardly causal as some suggest. had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hastened not to go down about a whole day.” Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): My hon. Friend may be aware that the Select Committee on That is really what amendment 59 is all about. It is Transport, of which I am a member, is embarking on an about accepting what verse 14 goes on to say, which is inquiry into road safety measures. It will consider a that that happened only once; it was a once-in-a-lifetime range of matters, including speed limits and MOT tests. occurrence. God allowed the sun to stand still in the I think that it would be difficult to isolate the effect of heavens on that day only, and never again. changing daylight hours on the road accident figures. There is absolutely nothing that we can do about that. No great Act of Parliament or—dare I say 11.30 am it—regulation from the European Union can create more daylight. We are therefore faced with a simple Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes an choice in the winter. Do we get up in the dark and have extraordinarily good and wise point. People sometimes teatime when it is a bit brighter, or do we have murky, see things happen and figures change, and then claim dank, dark mornings—I am sorry, I meant that the that A led to B. Somerset county council switched off other way round. Do we instead get up with a spring in all its speed cameras and the number of accidents fell 995 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 996 dramatically, but, much as I dislike speed cameras, it operation of different time zones in the same country, seems unlikely that in that instance A led directly to B. given that according to evidence in the United States We should be enormously careful about advancing and elsewhere, they need not prevent countries from arguments based on theoretical statistics relating to remaining entirely united. what might happen when there is a strong general trend. The key issue—I now return to the subject of amendment Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend has already heard 59—is that of what people like. Why do we not learn the me say that China is very big. It must be acknowledged lessons of history? We have tried this before. We tried it that the United States is also quite big, although not as during the war, but people did not like it, and as soon as big as China. For a huge country to operate different the war ended we got rid of it. If it had been such a time zones is one thing, but when I proposed that fantabulous idea, we would have retained it in the later Somerset should have its own time zone—because it 1940s, and in the 1970s. struck me as perfectly rational that time should be set Let us consider Portugal, our oldest ally and our ally from the centre of the universe—my proposal was since the treaty of Windsor in 1386. Portugal made this considered slightly eccentric. It was felt that the United mistake. The Portuguese erred: they decided to abandon Kingdom should not be divided in that way. I do not see the proper time, as set by the sun, and get closer to why, if this is not considered appropriate for Somerset, Europe. That failed, and they reversed their decision. we should suddenly do it to Scotland. I also think it hugely important symbolically to our Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman mentions Portugal. standing as one country for there to be no difference in Only yesterday, I discovered that according to Mr João time in different parts of that country. The Bill, as it Grancho, president of the national association of teachers stands, seeks to ignore the Union for the sake of some in that country, the time change had rather narrow and selfish benefits that are, in fact, “generated irritability and inattention among the youngest and trivial in comparison with the great history and breadth many fell asleep in class”. of our country’s tradition. Of course they fell asleep: they had been woken in the middle of the night to go to school. That is exactly what Mr MacNeil: I am concerned by the suggestion that a would happen here if we were so foolish as to forget the shared time zone enables us to live happily together in lessons of 30 or 40 years ago. one country. We can live happily in many countries together. I believe that the Republic of Ireland proves Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful for that invaluable that point. I hope that we are not seeing any hint of a intervention. I am sorry to say that I think that merely return of 19th-century imperialism, or any wish for the discussing this issue causes irritability among some Republic of Ireland to be ruled directly from the House hon. Members. of Commons.

Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): A simple look at Jacob Rees-Mogg: As it happens, I think that it any map reveals that the whole of Portugal is far to the would be good manners to consult the Republic of west of the United Kingdom. Were the United Kingdom Ireland as well, because the Irish economy is very on the same degree of longitude, I should be with the dependent on the UK economy. I should like to see that hon. Gentleman, but it is not, and therefore I am not. covered in the Bill, although it is not mentioned in the amendment. As I have said, a rather selfish approach Jacob Rees-Mogg: That brings me to amendment 23, has been taken . which requires the consultation to include representatives from England—in brackets, Somerset—Wales, Scotland Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): My and Northern Ireland. hon. Friend has spoken of the importance of obtaining a spread of opinion, including the views of people Mr MacNeil: As the hon. Gentleman may know, Na living in the extreme north-west of Scotland. Should h-Eileanan an Iar—which he pronounces so well—is that spread of opinion not include people living in 7.5 degrees, or a full half hour, west of the United places such as Dungeness in my constituency, which is Kingdom. We are penalised for that as well as being to in the extreme south-east of England? The fishermen the north of the UK. We have a problem of both there might welcome the time change. latitude and longitude. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course we should take into Jacob Rees-Mogg: That is an extremely important account the views of the whole country, but the real point. If one is a Unionist—if one believes that this is problems come in some of the furthest-flung parts that one great country consisting of England, Scotland, are the most remote from us in Westminster, where Wales and Northern Ireland, and that we should be people’s livelihoods may require them to get up earlier united as a single people—one has to maintain that if in the morning. the poorest crofter in Na h-Eileanan an Iar is At one point, I felt that much of the Bill was aimed at inconvenienced for a ha’porth of extra business in lie-abeds—those who do not get up very early in the Cornwall, that is most unreasonable, because it has a morning, but snooze on, remaining fast asleep in a disproportionate effect on our friends and allies in relaxed and happy way. Many people get up in the Scotland. winter at times when it would be dark not only until they had got up, had their breakfast, shaved and so Robert Halfon: I was surprised when my hon. Friend forth, but by the time they had reached the office, even defended communist China, as opposed to the land of if they had quite long commuting times. All those the free. I do not understand why he is against the people are being ignored. 997 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 998

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] one person to represent Scotland represented the majority party in Scotland, which would clearly be sensible, and I return to the issue of the Union. What we need—and perhaps one or two hon. Members present would be amendment 23 represents this—is a clear view of the able to volunteer to do that. effects that the Bill would have in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as well as in London. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Tom Harris: At the risk of extending the hon. Gentleman’s speech, may I point out that he is pursuing Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course I will—I have been a false path by suggesting that the Bill is in some way waiting for the hon. Gentleman to ask. anti-Scottish—that it is somehow against the interests of Scotland? I support it because I, as a Scottish MP, Thomas Docherty: Does the hon. Gentleman mean believe that it will benefit my constituents and my the majority party in the Scottish Parliament, where the compatriots in Scotland. It is ridiculous, and very dangerous, Scottish National party is the majority party, or here in to conjure up some kind of false division, or false sense Westminster, where Scottish Labour is clearly the majority of grievance. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an party? Iar (Mr MacNeil) is very good at that, but the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) Jacob Rees-Mogg: On that occasion I meant the should be very careful about going down the same path. majority party in the Scottish Parliament, but I see This is not about Scotland versus England; it is about the hon. Gentleman’s point, so perhaps we should have considering the evidence for a case of improving the two representatives from Scotland, which means we lives of people throughout our nation. must also have two from Somerset, because Somerset would feel let down if the numbers were not maintained Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am very interested by what the with the rest of the Union. [Interruption.] I did not hon. Gentleman says, but if it were simply a case of quite catch the comment the hon. Member for Alyn and looking for the evidence the Government could do that Deeside (Mark Tami) made from a sedentary position anyway. The Government produce Green Papers, White but will happily give way if he wishes to intervene. Papers and discussion documents, and set up inquiries I want to move on to my amendment 3, which proposes that publish reports. If every one of those required a a cost-cutting measure, and I know that some hon. private Member’s Bill to be passed by the House, we Members think that taxpayers’ money should be spent would be saved a large number of inquiries. willy-nilly and that part of our job here is to take money out of people’s pockets and waste it, but I thought that Philip Davies: If the Bill is not anti-Scottish and if we would get rid of the whole of clause 2, which sets out people are happy with it, there will be no problem with the independent oversight group. The relevant Secretary ensuring that the oversight group contains members of State and President of the Board of Trade, the right from all four parts of the United Kingdom. Does my hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), is known hon. Friend agree that if the hon. Member for Glasgow to one of the wisest men in Parliament. Lenin’s brain South (Mr Harris) is right, the amendment should be after his untimely death was kept for scientific research accepted by all Members, regardless of whether they to see how such a great brain could operate and why it support the Bill? was different from other brains, and I am sure that this will happen in the sad event of the death of the President Jacob Rees-Mogg: That is an excellent point. I hope of the Board of Trade—may that day long be put off. that it was heard by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), because she is one of the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Idonot wisest Members in the House, and has handled the Bill think that Lenin’s brain quite links with daylight hours with so much charm that she almost persuaded me to in the UK. support it. Perhaps she and the Bill’s sponsors will accept amendment 23. Jacob Rees-Mogg: The reason I brought it up to be linked is that by getting rid of clause 2 the President of Dr Whiteford: As the hon. Member for Glasgow the Board of Trade, which can meet with a quorum of South (Mr Harris) pointed out, there is a range of one, would then be able to consider the issue by himself. opinion in the nations, as one would expect. In that Such a great brain—a brain that competes with Lenin’s sense, having one person from each of the devolved and will be a matter of interest to scientific research—could Administrations would by no means be an adequate consider this without the huge extra cost that might be way of taking into account the wide range of public incurred by paying the expenses of the members of the opinion on these issues. As I understand it, time is a proposed oversight group, making facilities available to devolved matter in Northern Ireland, a consequence of it and giving it written terms of reference. the very asymmetric devolution across the islands. Northern Ireland will be very affected by this, but the Assembly Iain Stewart: Has my hon. Friend had an opportunity effectively has the power of veto under the current to quantify the cost to the public purse of such an devolution arrangements. oversight group?

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that that wanders slightly Jacob Rees-Mogg: I have not, but I know that these beyond the parameters of this rather narrow amendment, things always cost more than is anticipated and that any although I do accept that there could be an unlimited great project, adventure or public spending scheme number of people to try to represent all shades of starts with the expectation that it will cost a few thousand opinion, but I think that it would be a good idea if the pounds here or there, then a few tens of thousands, and 999 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1000 then a few hundreds of thousands. Before we know it, Hughes, rh Simon Owen, Albert the experiment is in place and we find that the cost to Huhne, rh Chris Pawsey, Mark the British people runs into millions. Would it not be Huppert, Dr Julian Penning, Mike better to get rid of this group of experts and give it, as I Jackson, Glenda Penrose, John have suggested, to the President of the Board of Trade, Jarvis, Dan Phillips, Stephen who would then be able, should he so wish, to convene a Jones, Andrew Pound, Stephen Jones, Graham Randall, rh Mr John meeting to discuss it. Jowell, rh Tessa Ruddock, rh Dame Joan The Board of Trade is one of those fantastically Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rutley, David underutilised bodies in British public life. It is a Committee Kirby, Simon Sanders, Mr Adrian of the Privy Council, established in the reign of His late Kwarteng, Kwasi Sandys, Laura Majesty King George III, and it last met in 1986 to Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison celebrate its 200th anniversary. If the president were to Lee, Dr Phillip Sheerman, Mr Barry summon the board’s members, it would have all the Leech, Mr John Slaughter, Mr Andy wisdom that the country would need to deliberate on Leslie, Charlotte Smith, rh Mr Andrew this complex matter, because its members include His Leslie, Chris Stewart, Bob Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury, Mr Speaker Lidington, rh Mr David Syms, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Tami, Mark himself—that would certainly set us on the right course—the Lopresti, Jack Tredinnick, David First Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer Lucas, Caroline Vara, Mr Shailesh and other Treasury Ministers. It would bring together a Macleod, Mary Vaz, Valerie fantastic conference of wisdom and brain power— McCarthy, Kerry Vickers, Martin [Interruption.] McDonnell, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Metcalfe, Stephen Walley, Joan Mr Ellwood claimed to move the closure (Standing Michael, rh Alun Weatherley, Mike Order No. 36). Mordaunt, Penny Webb, Steve Morris, David Wheeler, Heather Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I am willing Munn, Meg White, Chris to accept the closure—the references to Lenin’s brain Munt, Tessa Whitehead, Dr Alan Murray, Ian finally persuaded me. Whittingdale, Mr John Neill, Robert Yeo, Mr Tim Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Newton, Sarah put. Nokes, Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: The House proceeded to a Division. O’Brien, Mr Stephen Mr Greg Knight and Ottaway, Richard Karen Bradley Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No NOES Lobby. Bone, Mr Peter Reid, Mr Alan The House having divided: Ayes 122, Noes 10. Davies, Philip Stewart, Iain Doyle-Price, Jackie Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Division No. 431] [11.44 am Hosie, Stewart Nuttall, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: AYES Offord, Mr Matthew Mr Christopher Chope and Afriyie, Adam Ellwood, Mr Tobias Rees-Mogg, Jacob Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil Aldous, Peter Elphicke, Charlie Alexander, Heidi Fabricant, Michael Question accordingly agreed to. Barker, Gregory Field, rh Mr Frank Barwell, Gavin Field, Mark Question put accordingly, That the amendment be Bayley, Hugh Foster, rh Mr Don made. Bell, Sir Stuart Gale, Sir Roger The House proceeded to a Division. Betts, Mr Clive Gapes, Mike Blomfield, Paul Gauke, Mr David Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Bottomley, Sir Peter Glen, John Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Godsiff, Mr Roger Lobby. Brake, rh Tom Goldsmith, Zac Bray, Angie Greatrex, Tom The House having divided: Ayes 10, Noes 121. Brine, Steve Halfon, Robert Division No. 432] [11.59 am Brooke, Annette Hammond, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Hancock, Matthew AYES Bryant, Chris Hands, Greg Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Rebecca Coffey, Dr Thérèse Rees-Mogg, Jacob Davies, Philip Buckland, Mr Robert Harris, Mr Tom Stewart, Iain Doyle-Price, Jackie Burns, rh Mr Simon Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Field, Mark Collins, Damian Heald, Oliver Hosie, Stewart Tellers for the Ayes: Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Mr Peter Bone and Cruddas, Jon Herbert, rh Nick Offord, Mr Matthew Mr Christopher Chope Cryer, John Heyes, David Davey, Mr Edward Hilling, Julie Docherty, Thomas Hodge, rh Margaret NOES Dowd, Jim Hollingbery, George Afriyie, Adam Alexander, Heidi Ellison, Jane Hollobone, Mr Philip Aldous, Peter Barker, Gregory 1001 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1002

Bayley, Hugh Kwarteng, Kwasi Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it Bell, Sir Stuart Lazarowicz, Mark will be convenient to discuss the following: Betts, Mr Clive Lee, Dr Phillip Blackman-Woods, Roberta Leech, Mr John Amendment 30, page 2, line 31, leave out from ‘must’ Blomfield, Paul Leslie, Charlotte to end and insert Bottomley, Sir Peter Lidington, rh Mr David ‘obtain agreement from the Scottish First Minister and First Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Lloyd, Stephen Minister of Wales.’. Brake, rh Tom Lopresti, Jack Amendment 32, page 2, line 32, leave out ‘not’. Bray, Angie Lucas, Caroline Amendment 14, page 2, line 34, leave out paragraph (a). Brine, Steve Macleod, Mary Brooke, Annette McCarthy, Kerry Amendment 35, in clause 5, page 3, line 4, leave out Bruce, Fiona McDonnell, John ‘three years’ and insert ‘one year’. Bryant, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Amendment 85, page 3, line 4, leave out ‘three’ and Buck, Ms Karen Michael, rh Alun insert ‘two’. Buckland, Mr Robert Mordaunt, Penny Burns, rh Mr Simon Morris, David Amendment 16, in clause 5, page 3, line 7, leave out Collins, Damian Munn, Meg ‘March’ and insert ‘February’. Colvile, Oliver Munt, Tessa Amendment 17, page 3, line 9, leave out ‘October’ Cruddas, Jon Murray, Ian and insert ‘November’. Cryer, John Neill, Robert Davey, Mr Edward Newton, Sarah Amendment 38, in clause 6, page 3, line 20, at end Docherty, Thomas Nokes, Caroline insert— Dowd, Jim Nuttall, Mr David ‘(4) The Secretary of State must ask for reports from the Ellison, Jane O’Brien, Mr Stephen Scottish First Minister, the First Minister of Wales and the First Ellwood, Mr Tobias Ottaway, Richard Minister of Northern Ireland on the trial period.’. Elphicke, Charlie Owen, Albert Amendment 92, page 3, line 21, leave out Clause 7. Fabricant, Michael Pawsey, Mark Foster, rh Mr Don Penning, Mike Amendment 40, page 3, line 28, leave out Clause 8. Gale, Sir Roger Penrose, John Amendment 70, in clause 8, page 3, line 30, leave out Gapes, Mike Perry, Claire ‘a later’ and insert ‘an earlier’. Gauke, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Amendment 42, page 3, line 36, leave out from ‘must’ Glen, John Pound, Stephen to end of line 37 and insert Godsiff, Mr Roger Randall, rh Mr John Goldsmith, Zac Reid, Mr Alan ‘obtain agreement from the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly Greatrex, Tom Ruddock, rh Dame Joan and Northern Ireland Assembly.’. Gummer, Ben Rutley, David Amendment 43, page 3, line 36, leave out from ‘must’ Halfon, Robert Sanders, Mr Adrian to end of line 37 and insert Hammond, Stephen Sandys, Laura ‘obtain agreement from the Scottish First Minister, the First Hands, Greg Sheerman, Mr Barry Minister of Wales and the First Minister of Northern Ireland.’. Harris, Rebecca Slaughter, Mr Andy Harris, Mr Tom Smith, rh Mr Andrew Amendment 78, in clause 12, page 5, line 15, leave out Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Stewart, Bob from ‘(N.I.))’ to end of line 19. Heald, Oliver Syms, Mr Robert Amendment 94, in clause 14, page 6, line 3, leave out Heath, Mr David Tami, Mark ‘on the day on which’ Herbert, rh Nick Tredinnick, David Heyes, David Vara, Mr Shailesh and insert ‘two months after’. Hilling, Julie Vaz, Valerie Amendment 11, page 6, line 4, at end add— Hodge, rh Margaret Vickers, Martin ‘(4) If the trial period has not commenced before the Hollingbery, George Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa dissolution of the Parliament in which this Act was passed, the Hollobone, Mr Philip Walley, Joan Act shall thereupon be repealed.’. Hughes, rh Simon Weatherley, Mike Huhne, rh Chris Webb, Steve Huppert, Dr Julian Wheeler, Heather 12.15 pm Jackson, Glenda White, Chris Mr Reid: I shall speak to amendment 13, which I view Jarvis, Dan Whitehead, Dr Alan as an important and key amendment. It would mean Jones, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John that the trial could not proceed unless it had the support Jones, Graham Yeo, Mr Tim of every part of the United Kingdom. The Bill says that Jowell, rh Tessa Tellers for the Noes: the trial cannot proceed without the support of the Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Mr Greg Knight and House of Commons, the House of Lords, Kirby, Simon Karen Bradley “the First Minister and deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland”. Question accordingly negatived. Unionists and nationalists in Northern Ireland effectively have a veto on this Bill. When it comes to other parts of Clause 4 the United Kingdom like Scotland and Wales, however, the Secretary of State has only to “consult the Scottish…and the Welsh Ministers.” POWER TO ADVANCE TIME BY ONE HOUR FOR TRIAL PERIOD He does not need to obtain their agreement; all he has to do is consult them. Mr Reid: I beg to move amendment 13, page 2, line 27, Other amendments would require the Secretary of at end insert State to obtain the consent of Governments and Ministers ‘the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly’. in Scotland and Wales, but it is always important to 1003 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1004 remember that it is Parliaments and Assemblies, not Mr Reid: I have no doubt that they are, and I am sure Governments, that are elected to represent the people. that the hon. Gentleman is on much more intimate In some cases, like Wales currently, a minority Government terms with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister might be in power. in Scotland than I am. My relationship with them seems to involve exchanging letters, whereby they disagree Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ with almost everything that I put to them. However, Co-op): The hon. Gentleman and I probably have different that is probably digressing a fair bit. views on the substance of the Bill—many of the constituents It is important to remember that getting a resolution who got in touch with me support it and I certainly through a Parliament requires the support of a majority hope it goes forward to the stage when a review and of the Members of that Parliament, whereas Governments investigation can be carried out on the options—but can be minority Governments. The First Minister in does he agree that one way of dealing with the concerns Scotland currently leads a majority Government, but raised in Scotland would be precisely to adopt his the First Minister in Wales leads a minority Government, amendment? That is why I shall support it if a Division so it would be perfectly possible for the First Minister in is called on it. Wales to support the Bill but for the majority of Welsh Assembly Members to oppose it. That is why it is very Mr Reid: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his important that Parliaments and Assemblies decide, rather support. He makes the important point that the debate than Ministers, and why I specified the “Scottish on the amendment is not about the substance of the Parliament”and the “Welsh Assembly”in my amendment, Bill, but about whose consent should be required for it. rather than Governments. Other amendments before us I hope that hon. Members from all parts of the United today would give this power to the devolved Kingdom will support the amendment. Wherever an Administrations, and the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan hon. Member comes from, I hope they will agree that a an Iar (Mr MacNeil) discussed an amendment in measure like this, which will have different effects on Committee that would have given the power to Scotland’s different parts of the UK, is so important that it should First Minister or to the Scottish Government. Obviously, go forward only if it has the support of every part of as a member of the same party as the First Minister, he the UK. might be happy with that approach, but my preference Philip Davies: I agree with the thrust of the hon. would be for the whole Parliament to make the decision. Gentleman’s amendment. As he knows, I have tabled Mark Lazarowicz: It may well be that by the time the similar amendments, which I hope to be able to discuss. order is presented by the Secretary of State here people Will he explain why it is so important to him that will have had enough experience of a Scottish National Parliament as a whole—the Scottish Parliament as a party majority Government in Scotland to have replaced whole, the Welsh Assembly as a whole—rather than the it after the next Scottish elections. First Minister should be specified? The Bill in its present form seeks the agreement only of the First Minister in Mr Reid: I share the hon. Gentleman’s view that that Northern Ireland, so why does the hon. Gentleman is likely to happen in 2016, but the time scale in the Bill think the arrangements should be different for Scotland is that the decision on whether to proceed to the trial and Wales? will have to take place before then. However, the next group of amendments relates to what happens after the Mr Reid: I am grateful, because the hon. Gentleman trial, and the happy circumstances that the hon. Gentleman raises an important subject. When my party was in describes may well have occurred by then and we may opposition, I was a spokesperson on Northern Ireland well be back to a minority Government in Scotland. for a few years. I am far from an expert on the Northern Ireland constitution, but one important element to Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman rightly says that I remember is that what is called cross-community voting made a similar proposal in Committee to move these applies to passing motions or resolutions in the Northern things to Scotland. I also tabled an amendment to the Ireland Assembly. That means that a resolution has to Scotland Bill to move these powers to the Scottish be supported by a majority of both Unionists and Parliament, but did he support me then? nationalists. I was not expert enough on the workings of the Northern Ireland Assembly and its Standing Orders Mr Reid: I voted against the hon. Gentleman’s to draft an amendment that would cover the cross- amendment, as it opened up the possibility of ending community voting, but the Government amendment up with the time in Scotland being different from that in added to the Bill in Committee requiring the consent of England. If we accepted his amendment, the Parliament the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern here, legislating for England, could decide to advance Ireland means, in effect, that a majority of Unionists time by one hour and it would obviously do so without and of nationalists must support the Bill for it to go consulting Scotland. The Scottish Parliament and the through. Both the First Minister, Peter Robinson, and Scottish Government would then be presented with a the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, have fait accompli. They would have a choice of either been given a veto, so even if the Bill is passed by this having a different time zone in Scotland or copying Parliament, I am far from convinced that it would go what had happened in England and advancing time by any further, as it is odds on that one of those gentlemen one hour. would use his veto. Mr MacNeil: I invite the hon. Gentleman to imagine Mr MacNeil: This is a useful amendment, but may a scenario in which the Prime Minister behaved in a I set the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest by saying that I high-handed manner, as he did last week, and bounced have a hunch that the First Minister and Deputy First such a measure on Scotland. What would the hon. Minister in Scotland might be of a similar mind? Gentleman do in such a situation? 1005 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1006

Mr Reid: I voted against the hon. Gentleman’s their locker to ensure that we do not have a time change amendment to the Scotland Bill and I am still opposed that will be very inconvenient, especially in the winter to any amendment that would lead to different times in months, bounced on us? Scotland and England, simply because if a matter is devolved to Scotland, members of the Government Mr Reid: I have tabled this amendment so that the here are perfectly entitled to consider only England Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly will have to when debating and voting on such matters. When something vote before any change goes through. The votes would is a reserved matter and applies throughout the United have to take place before the start of the trial, and my Kingdom, I hope that all Members of the House will amendment in the next group would mean that the take into account all parts of the country. same votes would have to take place after the trial and before the scheme could become permanent. The Mr Tom Harris: Is it not the case that the hon. Government, as the Minister explained, have given the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) and the Scottish Government exactly what they asked for, so I Government have gone to great lengths to ensure that do not understand why the hon. Gentleman is complaining. Scotland is protected and that that protection and consideration for Scottish concerns would be completely Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. wiped out in the case of independence, which would Gentleman talks about the Welsh Assembly Government mean that England would be able to change its hours a lot, but has he actually consulted them on his amendment without any reference at all to Scotland, with all the or spoken to anyone about it? negative effects that would have on trade between Scotland and England? Mr Reid: I have not spoken to anybody in Wales, but I have spoken to plenty of people in Scotland. It is very Mr Reid: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. If important that we have devolution throughout the United the referendum proposed by the SNP in Scotland were Kingdom and I think Welsh Members would be far to succeed, Scotland would have no say about the time more likely to have complained had I tabled an amendment in England. If the clock was moved forward by an hour that simply gave the Scottish Parliament the right to a in England, the situation to which I referred earlier vote and not the Welsh Assembly. That would have would arise and the Scottish Government and Parliament meant more complaints from Welsh Members. would be presented with a fait accompli. Mr Davey: Is my hon. Friend aware that the SNP said Mr Tom Harris: Further to the question of my hon. on its website, until recently at least, that it only wanted Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), consultation on this issue and that it was not pushing I note that the hon. Gentleman is daily in touch with for a veto? Welsh Members of this House. What discussions has he had with them, if not with the Welsh Assembly Mr Reid: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend Government? for that intervention. He shows once again the complete inconsistency of the Scottish Government. One minute, 12.30 pm they ask for one thing and, if it is granted, they start huffing and puffing and complaining that the Government Mr Reid: The important people with whom I always here are being anti-Scottish. In fact, the Government discuss these matters are my constituents, and they are here have given the Scottish Government exactly what represented in the Scottish and UK Parliaments, not in they asked for. the Welsh Assembly. Mr MacNeil rose— Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that the inclusion of Wales in this amendment shows my hon. Friend’s generosity Mr Reid: I hope the hon. Gentleman will confirm of spirit. He is not being selfish about Scotland but is that, as my hon. Friend the Minister said, all the Scottish extending the benefits throughout the Union, which is Government wanted was to be consulted. to be greatly admired.

Mr MacNeil: I have not had a chance to look at the Mr Reid: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend website recently, but is the hon. Gentleman saying that for that intervention. I was slightly concerned that he the Conservative Government are pro-Scottish? was going to complain that I had not consulted anyone Mr Reid: There is no Conservative Government. There from Somerset, or included that county. [Interruption.] is a Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition Government My right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster) and it is very pro-Scottish. That is why my hon. Friend reminds me that I did talk to him. I am afraid that I am the Minister tabled amendments in Committee to do not au fait with the boundaries of the historic counties what the Scottish First Minister had asked and make in England, but I understood that my right hon. Friend provisions for consulting the Scottish and Welsh Ministers. came from Avon, but— I believe that this House should go further than consultation and should allow the Parliaments to have a say in these Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): It is called Somerset. matters. It is important that Parliaments decide such matters, not Ministers. Mr Reid: I must admit that I am not au fait with the boundaries of all the historic counties of England and I Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the hope that hon. Members, whether they are from Somerset question I asked earlier? If this House were to bounce or Avon, if I am allowed to use that word, are not an unpopular change of time zone on Scotland, what offended. I am grateful that my hon. Friend the Member would the hon. Gentleman do, given that he has ensured for North East Somerset did not hold it against me that that the Scottish Government do not have the powers in I did not give the county of Somerset a veto. 1007 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1008

Mr MacNeil: Of course, if the power were given to physics and astronomy have not changed in the past Wales, it would not have to be exercised, but it would be 40 years. The sun will still rise at the same time on the a courtesy to give the power anyway. There is great equivalent day of the year. merit and sense in taking that approach. I shall give an example from my constituency. On the Isle of Tiree, if the change were made, it would be 10 am Mr Reid: Yes, the hon. Gentleman makes an important before the sun rose in the middle of winter. Further point, which answers well the point made by the hon. north and west, the sunrise would be even later—at Member for Alyn and Deeside, who has left the Chamber 10.10 am in Stornoway and later still on the Isle of Unst and did not stay to hear that response. We would be in the Shetlands. To contrast that with Westminster, giving the Welsh Assembly a right that they would not here even in the depths of winter the sun would rise at have to exercise. 9.4 am. That is more than an hour before it would rise in the northerly and westerly parts of the country. Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend share my concern [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow South that we could have consulted the Scottish people if the (Mr Harris) refers to the time the sun rises at present. Bill had been allowed to proceed immediately after its Sunrise now is at 8.4 am; it would be 9.4 am with the Second Reading, as it could have been debated in the proposed change. House prior to the Scottish election? The coalition Government decided not to allow the Bill to proceed Mr Tom Harris: I am sorry to delay the hon. Gentleman. until after that election. Does he think that was rather a I was making the point, albeit from a sedentary position, cynical exercise by the Government? that the time difference between sunrise in one part of the country and another will always be the same. He Mr Reid: I had better not express any view on the was trying to imply that changing the clocks would Government’s actions. I know they took nearly a year somehow reduce the gap between the time that the sun to bring forward the money resolution, but I shall rises in the south and in the north. merely comment on that in passing without expressing any view about motive. I always prefer to talk about the Mr Reid: I am grateful for that intervention. I am facts and not to ascribe motives. sorry the hon. Gentleman misunderstood the point that Because of the geography of the United Kingdom I was trying to make. Even in the depths of winter, and the effect that that has on when daylight occurs, it is sunrise here in London would be at 9.4 am. Because important that the trial has support throughout the there is a period of twilight before sunrise and after United Kingdom. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland sunset, children going to school in London even in the are all both further north and further west than Greenwich. depths of winter would still be going in half-light, Being north of Greenwich means that we get fewer which is the present situation in Scotland. If the change hours of daylight in the winter than Greenwich, and it were made, children in London would go to school in is vital to make the maximum use of those few valuable the half-light, but children in Scotland would go to daylight hours. Being west of Greenwich means that the school in complete pitch blackness, and it is important sun rises and sets later than at Greenwich. The combined to remember that in country areas there are no street effect of being further north and further west means lights, so it would literally be pitch black when those that sunrise is a lot later, and this Bill would make it a children were going to school. At present even in the further hour later. depths of winter in Scotland, children go to school Although most of the United Kingdom is west of in the twilight, but the Bill would make them do that in Greenwich, some parts are east of it. If the clocks were pitch blackness. advanced by an hour, the difference in the east of the country between the time on the clock and the natural Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that, in time—or pre-railway time as the hon. Member for effect, the promoter of the Bill concedes the points that North East Somerset would describe it—would be less he makes? What is proposed is that there should be two than an hour. However, in the parts of the United different time zones in the United Kingdom—one for Kingdom west of Greenwich the time difference would Scotland, if people there wanted to keep things as they be more than an hour—significantly more in some are now, and a different one for the rest of the United places. That is why it is extremely important that the Kingdom. Does my hon. Friend not think that is absurd? trial should have the support of all parts of the United Kingdom. Mr Reid: It would indeed be absurd to have two I was at school during the previous trial and I have a different time zones within the United Kingdom. Hon. vivid memory of watching a beautiful winter sunrise Members representing places such as Berwick and Carlisle from the physics lab at school, but then realising that it would probably agree. I do not think there is any was nearly 10 o’clock and just how ridiculous it was for possibility of the Bill allowing that to happen, but it the sun to be rising about two hours before midday. would be silly if it did. I turn now to the road accident statistics. The surveys Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman talks about the time that took place at the time of the previous trial 40 years when he was at school. Does he think anything has ago were inconclusive. That is not just my opinion. That happened since to change the time at which the sun was the view of the Home Secretary at the time, Reginald would rise, if there were a repeat experiment? Maudling, who said: “The figures are not clear enough to base a decision upon.”— Mr Reid: No. As the hon. Member for North East [Official Report, 2 December 1970; Vol. 807, c. 1335.] Somerset said, there are limits to the powers even of the The reason for that is that the breathalyser was introduced House or of the European Union. The basic laws of at the same time, and there is no way of knowing how 1009 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1010

[Mr Reid] investigatory group recommended it unless the EU changed the directive. However, it would be an important much of the fall in road accidents was due to the addition to the Bill to allow the investigatory group to introduction of the breathalyser. If the fall had been consider the possibility of moving the clocks forward at due to the clock going forward an hour, once the an earlier date. If its investigations and consultations experiment was abandoned and we went back to Greenwich showed that that was the right move to make, the mean time in winter, one would have expected the Minister could be sent to Brussels to try to negotiate a number of road accidents to increase. But that did not change in the European directive. I am sure that similar happen; it continued to fall. It has continued to fall issues must arise in the rest of Europe, so that is an simply because we design cars better, we have better option that amendment 14 would leave open road traffic legislation and we educate drivers better. Mr Chope: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman makes a very does he share my concern that his amendment is in important point that is often cited. When we look at the danger of resulting in the perfect being the enemy of data, we see that the graph falls more steeply after the the good. His amendment is perfectly rational, but the trial, which almost indicates that the trial could have reality is that the pressure to have harmonisation of cost lives. Had the trial not occurred, that rapid descent clock changes across Europe is such that the alternative showing the number of people killed in collisions on proposal that I put forward would be better than nothing, roads in Great Britain between 1968 and 1971 might although not as good as his. Does he agree that my have been steeper, meaning that some people who were proposal just to extend British summer time and leaving killed in that period might still be alive today. It is a very GMT as it is should also be an option available to the serious issue. committee?

Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Mr Reid: I think that you would rule me out of order point. The words of the Home Secretary of the day sum if I spoke to an amendment that had just been voted it up best; the outcome was inconclusive. down, Mr Deputy Speaker. This point is relevant to the amendment because one My amendment would open up other options. The figure that came out of the trial was that whereas Bill already gives a veto to both Houses of this Parliament, during that period road deaths in most of country went as well as to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister down, in the north of Scotland, they went up, and it of Northern Ireland. I believe that the Scottish and should be borne in mind that even after the introduction Welsh Parliaments should also have a veto before the of the breathalyser road deaths in the north of Scotland trial goes ahead. Consulting the Ministers is not good went up. That is important because it shows that there enough; the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly are different impacts in different parts of the United must decide. I therefore commend amendment 13 to the Kingdom. Therefore, amendment 13 is important. House.

Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes an important 12.45 pm point about the declining number of road accidents in the previous experiment. Current road traffic casualty Mr MacNeil: I congratulate the hon. Member for statistics are still on a downward trajectory, which is Castle Point (Rebecca Harris). It is rare indeed for a welcome, but if we had this experiment, it would be Back Bencher’s Bill to get so far up the parliamentary difficult to disentangle the continuation of that downward chain, and she has shown great grace and courtesy in trend, for a range of other reasons, from the effect of my dealings with her on this issue. Her Bill has perhaps changing the clocks. made such progress with the help of the Government, but it is none the less quite an accomplishment. Having Mr Reid: My hon. Friend makes an important point. said that, I will continue to subject it to intense scrutiny. That is why the Home Secretary of the day concluded I believe that, when people experience the clock change, that the result was inconclusive. the head of steam raised by a small but dedicated I tabled amendment 14 to attempt a compromise. My campaign group will be dramatically outweighed. The concern is about the dark mornings in my constituency 1970 Division in the House was passed by 366 votes in the depths of winter that will result from the Bill. to 81, and as I have said, that involved Members not Passing the amendment would allow the investigatory only from Scotland and the SNP but from the north of body to look at other options. My preference would be England and everywhere else. Further south, Portugal to bring forward the spring clock change to the middle has changed back after two experiments. We are in real of February. The October clock change is at the right danger of slipping much further with this; our guard time because there are eight weeks before the shortest might go down, and we might subject people to an day. Logically, if there were eight weeks in the other uncomfortable winter. direction, the clocks would go forward in the middle of Having spoken to representatives of the Royal Society February. The importance of that is that we would for the Prevention of Accidents I tabled an amendment avoid the dark winter mornings, but still have the benefit to deal with its concerns about safety, although I do not of lighter evenings in March. agree with some of its interpretations. However, if tabling Other amendments give specific days for the change the amendment will put the matter to rest, it is worth of the clocks, but mine is the most suitable because it doing. would allow the investigating committee some flexibility. My concerns about the clock change are vast. I I realise that it would breach the European directive, so remain unconvinced about the potential benefits, and the Government could not make that change even if the the losses are proven. Many of my concerns are based 1011 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1012 on the data provided by the Lighter Later campaign, its directive. Does he feel that a “notwithstanding” which argues that an extra hour of sunlight at the end clause might have been helpful to overrule the European of the day would be a panacea for the UK’s problems. It Communities Act 1972? claims that people would go outside more, consume less electricity, watch less television, eat better, sleep better, Mr MacNeil: I think that European directives and run and swim more, commit fewer crimes, be less afraid rules are often perceived as guidelines by the continental to go outside, spend countless billions on tourism and and Celtic mind, and— if I may be so bold—as be involved in fewer car accidents. Those projections do commandments by the Anglo-Saxon mind. If we really not stand up to scrutiny at all, although the change is intend to investigate the safety issues, a European directive presented as the greatest thing since sliced bread— should not be seen as a commandment that can override all such considerations. Mr Harris: It sounds like independence.

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman gives me a great Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder further whether my hon. opportunity to say that independence will be better Friend thinks that if we did have a big fight with than sliced bread. Brussels over this, it would increase the happiness of the nation. Mr Chope: Has the hon. Gentleman seen this little postcard-sized piece of paper, which claims that the Bill Mr MacNeil: That is a very interesting question. would Debate, discussion and arguments can of course be “boost the economy, make the nation happier, save lives, save invigorating, and can cause serotonin and other useful carbon”? hormones to flow through the body. The hon. Gentleman It goes on to say: “Save the date”. Is not that an may be on to something. I am sure that a considerable example of the gross exaggeration that the supporters constituency in the country would be greatly cheered by of the Bill are using in their tactics to get people to a fight with Europe—myself included, certainly when it support it? comes to fishing issues. Let me return to the amendment, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman mentions the claim One of my main complaints is that most of the data that the provisions would “make the nation happier”. used by the campaigns are based on simulations and As a result of information that I received from Portugal, estimates. Dr Elizabeth Garnsey, author of the report it occurred to me yesterday that a measure of happiness on daylight saving that has been used by Lighter Later, might be a country’s divorce rate. So I got my researchers, has said: Christopher Mullins-Silverstein and Xavier Solano, to approach the House of Commons Library and ask for “the data that are being used in the BRE report are simulated the UK’s divorce rate figures during the trial period data. They are illustrative data—that is, invented data. When you do a simulation of that kind your outputs are going to represent from 1968 to 1970. There was a small but significant the input assumptions that you made.” spike in the divorce rate, which fell back down again after the trial period was over. I am not sure whether the In many senses, those data might not be real. However, I divorce rate is an indicator of happiness—I suppose it shall try to use only empirical data to prove my point. could be argued either way—but it certainly went up at The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) was that time. Perhaps the morning irritability that I have very concerned with the issue of happiness, as, indeed, mentioned was present at the breakfast tables of the was the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob United Kingdom, and perhaps it tipped a few people Rees-Mogg). I hope that I have pronounced his constituency over— correctly, as he pronounces mine so well: I hope that I have used the correct Somerset intonations. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I hate On the issue of depression and sunlight, those leading to interfere with the hon. Gentleman’s pursuit of happiness, the change campaign have said that more light in the but I think that we have got the gist of his argument. We evening can help to abate seasonal affective disorder understand that he is against the Bill, but I wonder and depression, using a 1993 study to prove their case. which amendment he is speaking to at the moment. However, Professor Michael Terman, a PhD who works in the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University Mr MacNeil: I am speaking to amendment 17, in America, conducted a study this year that proved the Mr Deputy Speaker. I think it important to set the exact opposite, and his findings were supported by context of the amendment, and that is what I am doing. Dr Malcolm von Schantz of the University of Surrey. Claims are made on one side and claims are made on Dr Terman found that darker mornings lead to increased the other, but I am a reasonable, generous and conciliatory depression, because the body’s natural clock needs morning ON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I thank my colleagues man—[H sunlight in order to operate properly. for that. I am prepared to inconvenience myself and give a little. I do not have an “all or nothing” mindset, and I have warned the Lighter Later supporters from Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman has raised an the outset that if they take an “all or nothing” approach, important point. Many people in my constituency, which they are likely to end up getting nothing. The olive is in the south-east of England, commute to London branch is still extended. daily. Indeed, I was a daily commuter myself before I was elected. In the winter, doing both journeys in the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder whether my hon. Friend dark is a pretty miserable experience, and I fear that the has considered fully the problem of the European Union’s time change would subject more commuters to more not allowing us to proceed with the amendment under misery in the winter. 1013 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1014

Mr MacNeil: It is not just crofters in the outer cost lives, because the rate of road accident deaths did Hebrides about whom I worry; I worry about the not go down as quickly during that period as it did in commuters of Milton Keynes as well. We are talking subsequent years. If I have to repeat myself again and about human experiences, and it was not the people of again before that is understood, I will do so. If we the outer Hebrides who were responsible for the reversal disregard such a serious fact and run to a trial, surely we of the time change; it was the good people of Milton are putting people in danger. Keynes, who were experiencing that particular misery over three winters. We should bear it in mind that the Mr Davey: I have listened to the hon. Gentleman Bill commits us to at least 15 months of really dark make the point several times about road safety in Scotland. winters, although I hope that my amendment will get Is he aware that the road safety officer of the Royal around that to some extent. Society for the Prevention of Accidents in Scotland has To use the obvious example, how do we feel when we stated on the record that it would welcome such a have to get out of bed on a dark and dreary morning, study? rather than when the sun is up? Our entire mood is changed because of the lack of sunlight. If the clocks Mr MacNeil: Many people would welcome the study are changed, nearly all of us will have to wake up and for a number of reasons, and that organisation would go out in the dark for a longer period of the year. As I welcome it because it would enable it to get the data. I said earlier, Portuguese children were found to be irritable am just saying that it looks like the period for getting and have poor attention, and according to the national the data would itself be dangerous. association of teachers many fell asleep in the classroom. It is worth noting that this is damaging to young people’s Jacob Rees-Mogg: Is not the obvious answer to the education and that divorce rates increase significantly, Minister that the Government could carry out a study so even an experiment has dangerous consequences for any day of the week they felt like and do not need an many people. On energy consumption, we have heard Act of Parliament to do so? from Lighter Later that there could be serious energy cost savings as a result of people not needing to consume Mr MacNeil: I thank the hon. Gentleman for a good energy in the evenings. As I stated on Second Reading, point, well made. this is erroneous, because people would need to turn on Although some organisations might want the data to appliances on colder, darker winter mornings. be gathered, the unfortunate side of gathering it is that the rest of us would be living in a laboratory. Dr Whiteford: I am concerned about the winter morning Having seen, from looking at the graph in front of issue. Last week my heating in London broke down and me, the line go down less steeply during the experiment I did not even notice because the temperature here is so than it did afterwards, and the significant change just much higher than it is in more northerly parts. I think afterwards, I cannot commit to an entire 15-month people would put on their heating during the coldest period. Being a reasonable man, however, I have looked part of the night and also when energy is at its most on the ROSPA website, and the most dangerous month expensive, which will have an impact on not only energy is November, so we should change the clocks, as my consumption but fuel poverty. amendment seeks, from the end of October to the end of November. Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I know that the cold in Banff and Buchan is balanced only by the warm hearts of its people, and certainly by 1pm their good sense in yet again returning an SNP Member. November is more dangerous than the darker months Her points are well made and serious, and indeed they of December and January, and that says quite a lot are backed up not only by her own experience, but by about the darkness argument, but with November being evidence from Indiana in the United States and from the most dangerous month why do we not change just Portugal. The phones have been busy between my office one month? We would commit ourselves, therefore, to and Portugal in the last wee while. Mr Rui Agostinho, three months of trials rather than 15 months. It might director of Lisbon’s astronomical observatory, the institution be an inconvenience during November, but as a result responsible for legal time in Portugal, has said that a we would have a better December, January and February. company contracted by the European Commission at the time showed that the energy savings gained were Mr Tom Harris: The hon. Gentleman shows a welcome, ultimately lost with the increase of energy consumption if surprising, flexibility, but does he not concede the during the morning. principle of the Bill, which is to have a trial period to gather evidence? If he does concede that, we are really Bob Stewart: Look, we have listened to this all morning. arguing only about periods of time, and surely a longer It is clear that we are not absolutely certain what would period will enable us to gather more evidence on which be the result of a change. Is it not terribly important for to make a long-term decision. us to check by having a trial to determine whether we would actually save more lives and save more energy? Mr MacNeil: I say that we should have a series of All this talk should stop and we should just vote on it Novembers. As I have said, I am a conciliatory man, now and have the trial. and I have extended an olive branch. Rather than plunge areas of the country north of Manchester into Mr MacNeil: I admire the hon. and gallant Gentleman’s darkness for two months a year, with no sunrise before headlong enthusiasm, but we must reflect before plunging 9 am, I say, okay, there is an ongoing argument for ourselves into 15 months of misery. It can be seriously gathering data, so let us gather data in November, the argued that the change in the late ’60s and early ’70s most dangerous month, instead of over five months of 1015 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1016 winter and for 15 months in total. We could reduce the seen as commandments. Surely it is not beyond the wit inconvenience to 20%, and I am fairly confident that, of man for European Union directives, which were once we introduce those three months, once we have the constructed in a room by individuals, to be amended or attendant misery and once we see what comes of that, improved. Surely the point of European directives— lighter evenings will not be seen to have such great although perhaps experience shows otherwise—is that benefits after all. We will get the taste of the inconvenience they should aid and improve our lives. If a European without going through the utter misery of an entire directive is causing difficulty in our lives, we should ask winter period. our Government to go to Europe to change it. We could then test out this measure and have some resolution. Bob Stewart: Why is the hon. Member for the islands Rather than having 15 months of misery, changing the of Scotland, where I, too, came from, once, confident European directive could make the period shorter. that the month of November will give him the results that he expects? He does not know, and the best way of Mark Lazarowicz: The issue is not with a European finding out is to have a flipping trial. directive. The fact is that the time difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK and Europe would Mr MacNeil: Well, if the hon. Gentleman— change in October, and then travel and airline times would change again a month later. This is about the Jacob Rees-Mogg: On a point of order, Mr Deputy inconvenience for travellers, not about a directive or Speaker. Will you rule on whether the word—if I may matters of principle. utter it myself—“flipping” is parliamentary? Mr MacNeil: When the hon. Gentleman mentions Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Do you know, Europe, perhaps he should consider a comparison between I think that that word is on the cusp—a bit. It offended Paris and London, which are reasonably close to each me, a little, but I must say that in the heat of the other geographically. Paris has lighter evenings, but it moment I have heard a lot worse in this place. has a higher accident rate. The factor of daylight does not appear to be the overriding factor in road safety; Mr MacNeil: If the hon. Member for Beckenham there are many other factors. The point is made time (Bob Stewart), who advocated European harmonisation and again that the extra hour of daylight will be a earlier, curbs his enthusiasm and goes to the ROSPA panacea for road traffic deaths. website, he will find that the month of November is the most dangerous month. It is by studying what ROSPA Mr Reid: The European directive is important because says that I have introduced the amendment. in the days before it ferry and airline timetables were full of footnotes about countries changing their clocks at Mr Chope: I recognise the generous spirit in which different times. The hon. Gentleman’s amendments are the hon. Gentleman has introduced the amendment, also important in starting a consultation. After the but has he thought through the implications once every consultation, if the consensus is for the change that he seven years, when the clocks would change on St Andrew’s suggests, the Minister could then go to Brussels to day? negotiate it. Mr MacNeil: If the clocks were to change on St Andrew’s Mr MacNeil: There is eminent sense in the approach day, giving us an extra hour on that day, we might have of talking, rather than rushing headlong into a miserable a 25-hour St Andrew’s day, which would probably be trial. That is where the real danger is. welcome, and—who knows?—I might get some form of In the period when the clocks were not put back in promotion from the Scottish Government owing to my winter, the decline in the number of road deaths slowed. initiative of introducing a longer, 25-hour St Andrew’s If last winter we had gone back to the number of road day. deaths that we had in the winter of the trial period I am looking for an opportunity, and the glass is half between’68 and ’71, there would have been three times full. By extending this olive branch, I am presenting a the number of road deaths. We also now have faster cars half-full glass and an opportunity for the trial, with the and more cars on the road. The argument on safety, other attendant benefits, but the concern that must be which is made with an air of moral certainty, has to be listened to most is the safety concern. It is not dealt with taken on and the data must be challenged. I hope that by the data, and it was certainly not dealt with by the that is what I am doing. I do not like the moralising graph after the trial in the 1970s. Indeed, the trial may tone that is sometimes used towards me when I am have cost lives, so let us have only a three-month period looking after the interests of my constituents and the of danger, rather than a 15-month one. interests of young children and their education, particularly as those arguments are eminently challengeable. Mark Lazarowicz: I have tried to take all the amendments seriously and at face value. However, I suggest to the Mr Offord: The hon. Gentleman is correct about the hon. Gentleman that it is odd for his party, which is so causal links in the accident rate. In my time at Barnet keen on the European Union, as indeed am I, to want council, I oversaw a 40% reduction in the number of the change of time to take place on a different date from people killed or seriously injured. That had nothing to that in the rest of the European Union, which, as we do with light or darkness; it was to do with removing have heard, decided on a common date for changing speed humps and reconfiguring road junctions. It was time, following the example of the UK. those policies that reduced the KSIs in my area. Mr MacNeil: I hear the hon. Gentleman’s concern, Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman makes a good but he is again looking for difficulties, whereas I look point. There is a danger that we will be distracted from for opportunities and solutions in life. As I have said, I the more important road safety issues if we imagine do not think that European Union directives should be that the extra hour is a panacea. The measures that he 1017 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1018

[Mr MacNeil] support for the Bill depends upon the legislative consent motion being passed in due course. That will have no mentions are probably far more important than the effect on the Bill’s provision requiring the agreement of light at a particular hour, which is distracting far too the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister many people when there are safety measures that need in Northern Ireland, which reflects the point that time to be used. is devolved in respect of Northern Ireland. I am struck by the fact that road deaths fell by 300 As I said, the position of the Bill reflects the devolution between the winter of 2009 and the winter of 2010-11. settlement. Consultation with the devolved Executives Had the moves in the previous Parliament to have is common, and it is appropriate in this instance. It lighter evenings during the winter succeeded, a causal would allow for discussion to take place on the issues link would have been drawn between the lighter evenings involved and on any concerns. Moreover, the devolved and the drop in deaths. As we now know, that reduction Governments are accountable to their legislatures. in deaths happened anyway, with darker evenings. It is dangerous to make assumptions and links between Mr MacNeil: The Minister and I discussed this matter lighter evenings and deaths on the roads, particularly as back and forward at some length in Committee. Given the rate of deaths decreased immediately after the study the measures that he is outlining, would it be possible of the late 1960s and the ’70s. Perhaps that study for the Government here in Westminster to override the delayed the rate of the decrease. wishes of the Scottish Government? I move back to energy. The data used to support the changes seem to have a serious flaw. The campaign’s Mr Davey: We have made it clear that that is not our main source of data is 24 studies on the effect of lighter intention, and that we will listen to all parts of the evenings. Of those 24, only six were empirical studies United Kingdom. We would not expect to proceed if and the rest were simulations. The paper examining there were clear opposition from other parts of the UK. them found that 15 studies concluded that there were The devolved Governments may wish to put the matter energy savings. Of those 15, approximately two were before their Parliament or Assembly, but that would be empirical studies and 10 were simulations. The odd a matter for them. For that reason, we think that thing about the simulations is that they showed savings amendment 13, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member of 0.2% and 2%, and another study showed a saving of for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), is inappropriate. We 0%. Surely a 0% saving could also be called a 0% loss. consider it a matter for the devolved Administrations. The information that we have from Indiana, Portugal On amendments 16 and 17, my hon. Friend talked and elsewhere shows that energy would be lost, not about changing the dates of summertime but I have saved, if the change was made, and there would not be dealt with those issues in previous debates. safety gains. As for tourism, my amendment suggesting that the 1.15 pm studies be carried out in November would ensure that it could not benefit from another month of “lighter later”. Philip Davies: The Ministers says that he is determined That would be a perfect compromise for many of us that this will not go ahead without the agreement of who need to find consensus, extend an olive branch and people in Scotland and Wales, as well as Northern find middle ground. I fear that an all-or-nothing campaign Ireland, so why will he not accept that being made clear would yield exactly nothing. in the Bill? If that is his intention, he has nothing to lose from making it clear in the Bill. He might be prepared The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, to seek their agreement, but he might move onwards Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): These and upwards in the future, leaving someone else in his amendments address the role of the devolved position, so we need a safeguard to ensure that his Administrations, and I therefore think it would assist successors will adopt the same procedure. the debate if I explained how the Bill’s provisions would affect the devolution settlements. Mr Davey: The position that I have set out is the The subject of time zones is devolved in respect of policy of the Government, irrespective of whether I am Northern Ireland but reserved in respect of Scotland the Minister responsible. I said that time is a devolved and Wales. However, as I have said before, the Government matter in Northern Ireland but not in Scotland and believe that the issue requires UK-wide consensus. The Wales, which is why we have adopted this formula. Government will consult the Welsh and Scottish Governments fully on any proposed trial or any proposal Mr Chope: Will the Minister give way? to make a trial permanent. The Government would not expect to proceed with a trial if, following those Mr Davey: No. consultations, there was clear opposition from any part The Bill also provides for the devolved Executives to of the country. be consulted about any proposals to increase the trial While we are on the subject of devolution I will say period, and their views will be fully taken into account. that I believe there may have been some confusion in The power to lengthen the trial will be available from Committee about the position regarding legislative consent the date of the report, and if the report indicated that a motions of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Such a longer trial was necessary, that power could be exercised motion is required in respect of this Bill, not in respect to lengthen the trial before the devolved Executives gave of a daylight saving order. The motion is required their view on whether to have a trial. That means that before the Bill completes its parliamentary passage. We they would know then about the trial’s expected length, approached the Northern Ireland Administration about so the amendment that suggests otherwise misses the taking the matter forward, and the Government’s continued point. 1019 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1020

Asking for reports from the First Ministers, as proposed For me, the critical issue and the reason why amendments in amendment 38, is neither necessary nor appropriate. 16 and 17 are so important is that the dark days The Secretary of State will monitor the effects of the coincide with the cold winter months. It is not just the order for the whole country, and is the person best darkness; the cold compounds the effects of the dark. placed to do so, but the First Ministers would, of In more northerly parts and on higher ground, temperatures course, be welcome to submit anything that they might are significantly lower. The coldest time of day is the wish for the Secretary of State to consider. It would not hours just before dawn, which is exactly when more be appropriate for the House, through this Bill, to people will be moving around, going to school or work, require any report from the First Ministers or to impose if the changes are introduced. any costs on them. After all, they are devolved In Aberdeenshire, gritters grit our roads for seven Administrations. months of the year. They do not do it every day, but from October to April we must protect our commuters Mr MacNeil: Would the devolved Administrations from frosty roads, which are undoubtedly dangerous. have full access to the data on which the report was One thing that has come out of the debate on these based? Furthermore, we are getting Government policy amendments and others is that it is hard to attribute from the Minister but I would be much more comfortable road safety to factors involving daylight or darkness. It if it was written into the Bill? is much easier to say that a whole lot of other factors have an effect: driver behaviour, road conditions and, above all, weather conditions. These can be treacherous Mr Davey: Of course, the devolved Administrations not just for drivers but for pedestrians. One need only will have access to the report and the data on which it look at an accident and emergency department on a was based. That is how the Government have approached morning when pavements are icy to see people with the whole issue. We have worked hard to get consensus broken wrists, arms and hips. The dangers are real, and at this stage, because we want consensus at all stages. they are exacerbated in the hours before daylight when I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that assurance. the ice has not yet melted. That is key, and it is why I have checked the record of the Committee stage, people in my part of the world feel so strongly about the and it appears that I made it clear on no fewer than issue. They do not want to expose themselves to more of 13 separate occasions that the Government would not the same. expect to carry out a trial or make any change if there Some of the other myths that need to be discussed a was clear opposition from any part of the country. I bit more include the myth about tourism. The great hope that that reassures my hon. Friend the Member luxury of being on holiday is that people can get up for Argyll and Bute and other right hon. and hon. exactly when they like and do whatever they like. If they Members. It is clear that we want consensus. are on a holiday involving field sports, they might get up in the middle of the night anyway, to optimise their use of time. By the same token, if they want to lie in Dr Whiteford: I do not intend to take up too much of until 10 or 11 am, they can. the House’s time today. I regret that it is so easy to use the procedures of the House to inhibit rather than I welcome the Government’s approach in saying that enable constructive debate on an issue that is so serious, they want consensus, but as other Members have said, particularly for my constituents in the north of Scotland. unless there is something in legislation to pin the matter down, it is hard to have confidence in that kind of When we debated this matter before, I approached it language. Both the amendment tabled by the hon. Member with an open mind. I thought that after 40 years it was for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) and that tabled by my important to consider the evidence, the changes since hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—I the last review and possible ways of moving forward. do not know that I say that quite as well as the hon. I was keen to speak on this group of amendments, Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg)— particularly amendments 16 and 17, tabled by my hon. seek those reassurances. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), because I am concerned that exaggerated claims have been made for the outcomes of the Bill. When I looked Mr Davey: Will the hon. Lady confirm that in the Bill at the evidence, I found that it do not always stack up: it we have done what the SNP asked us to do? What we seemed simplistic; it drew conclusions that could not be said in Committee and in our press releases, and what I attributed to the evidence presented; most of it was have reconfirmed today, goes further than the SNP theoretical and there was little empirical data; and, asked us to, in order to ensure that we represented above all, it took little account of other attendant Scottish interests and got consensus. factors that might prove critical in the overall picture. Any policy changes need to be based on the reality of Dr Whiteford: I absolutely recognise the progress that geography, the environment and our body clock, to put the Minister has made. It is good, but we need safeguards. not too fine a point on it. The reality for people in the I am not the only person who takes with a little pinch of north and west of these islands is that in the heart of salt some of Government Front Benchers’ assurances. winter we have only seven hours of daylight a day at We would like the issue pinned down in a way that will most. People already go to and from school and work in give us assurances and alleviate some of the concerns of the dark. The question is not just how we use the limited people in Scotland, who face a disproportionate negative amount of daylight available to us; perhaps more impact from any trial that goes ahead. I would like importantly, it is how we minimise the inconveniences some sort of trial to gather empirical data, and I think of that limited amount of daylight, and of working and that the proposals made are one way to do so without living in the dark. exposing people to unnecessary risk. 1021 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1022

Mr MacNeil: Does my hon. Friend feel, as I do, that Mr MacNeil: While our debate has continued, another the safeguards that we are looking for are a way of issue that I had not considered has been brought to my fixing the goalposts? At the moment, there is a danger—the attention—that the provisions are anti-working mothers. Minister refused to say that it was not possible—that A woman, Mrs Marybell Galbraith who lived in Glasgow the Government might renege, change their mind, choose with her children in the ’60s, e-mailed me to say: another policy or override Scotland. We just want the “My children and myself suffered from this”— goalposts fixed so that we know the terms of reference. Then we could move on quite happily. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We are supposed to be debating the amendment tabled by Dr Whiteford: That is right, and I agree. Mr Philip Davies, which has nothing to do with the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make. I will conclude my remarks, because I know that other people want to speak. Ultimately, it is a quality of Philip Davies: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will life issue. One thing that struck me after the last debate press on, as I am sure you and others would wish me to on the Bill was that a huge number of people from do. England, mostly older people who remember the last trial, got in touch with me by letter, phone or e-mail. If the intention of my hon. Friend the Member for They all said the same thing: “This was a disaster when Castle Point and the Minister is to get agreement from they did it in the ’70s.” They found it miserable getting Scotland and Wales before a trial goes ahead, I fail to up, going to work and delivering things in the dark. see any possible objection to making that clear in the People who remember it did not like it. Ultimately, that Bill. The Minister said that he had made progress with has to be our arbiter: is this going to be helpful for our the Bill in a way that maximised consensus. As far as I quality of life? I know that it is going to impact more on can see, consensus can win out. All it needs is for my my part of the world than some other parts of these hon. Friend and the Minister to say that they will accept islands. For the sake of our health and well-being, we my amendment so that need to think carefully before messing around with “agreement from the Scottish First Minister and the First Minister something that might not need to be changed. of Wales” is obtained before a trial goes ahead. At that point, I Philip Davies: I congratulate my hon. Friend the can sit down and allow the Bill to progress. I see no Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) on getting reason why this should be a stumbling-block, given that her private Member’s Bill this far. She has certainly got my amendment proposes the intention of my hon. much further than I have with any of mine. I think mine Friend and the Minister in any case. got no further than being heavily defeated on Second Reading—largely by my hon. Friends! I also commend Mr Tom Harris: The Bill is carefully worded so as to my hon. Friend for the way in which she has conducted respect the devolution settlement. Responsibility for herself, always remaining in good humour. In common changing the hours is devolved to the Northern Ireland with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset Assembly, but it is not devolved to the Scottish Parliament (Jacob Rees-Mogg), I think she has great charm; I and every piece of legislation that comes before this thought that she was charming only me, so I was House must respect the Scotland Act 1998. As a pro- disappointed to find out that she had charmed my hon. devolutionist, I firmly believe that, but the SNP wants Friend as well! to undermine devolution because it opposes it. The hon. Gentleman should be careful about aligning himself I shall speak to the amendments I have tabled in this with the separatists. group, starting with amendment 30, which gets to the nub of the issue. It is similar to the amendment tabled Philip Davies: I have drawn exactly the opposite by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), conclusion. What the hon. Gentleman says may be true who wanted to ensure that the Scottish Parliament and in terms of the niceties of the legislation, but I understand the Welsh Assembly agreed to any trial before it went that, like me, he wants to preserve the United Kingdom, ahead. My amendment would achieve something similar, and giving an additional safeguard to people in Scotland but it relates to subsection (4) rather than subsection (3). and in Wales is a much better way of safeguarding the As the provision is drafted, we have the curious UK than trying to railroad something through against position whereby we have to the wishes of those people and using some legal nicety “obtain the agreement of the Office of the First Minister and to try to justify that action. That is not a sensible deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland”— approach. something I wholeheartedly support— 1.30 pm yet only Mark Lazarowicz: I agree with the hon. Gentleman “consult the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers.” on this point. It is not separatists who say that they I have heard the debate and heard the assurances both want to give more powers within the existing devolution from the Minister and from my hon. Friend the Member settlement to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh for Castle Point that, as far as they are concerned, no Assembly, and I hope that his amendment is therefore trial will go ahead if there is opposition from Scotland, successful. Wales or other parts of the United Kingdom. That is fine: I accept those assurances and I accept their intention. Philip Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman What we have to deal with, however, is what is in the Bill for his support, and I am pleased that he accepts that I before us, and notwithstanding all the good intentions, am trying to entrench the Union and make people in that is not what the Bill says. Scotland and Wales feel more part of it. 1023 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1024

Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will my hon. Friend give way? whichever option the House prefers. It seems to me that if we want to obtain the agreement of the Scottish Philip Davies: I will give way one last time, but then I Government or Ministers or the Welsh Government or want to make progress. Ministers before we start a trial, and if we want a clause that gives the power to increase the length of the trial, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I just wondered whether my hon. we must go through the same process to ensure that we Friend had noticed the time on the clock, because had are not railroading something through against the wishes the Bill already come into force, the debate would by of those people. now have ended. I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute was satisfied by the Minister’s Philip Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for response on amendment 13. that observation. My amendment 35 deals with the length of the trial Mr Reid indicated assent. period, which the Bill proposes should be three years. I return to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Philip Davies: He is a much more generous man than Christchurch (Mr Chope) made earlier about a city in I am, and I am sure that he has taken the Minister’s Kazakhstan that had been built in 15 years; we seem to word at face value. I would be the first to accept that I need three years to conduct this trial but I do not see am more cynical. I have seen evidence of Ministers why it needs to last that long. His amendment 85, in this saying one thing with the best intentions in the world group, recommends reducing the period to two years, and then it did not quite turn out that way. I heard which I would welcome. However, my amendment 35 Ministers say that they were going to have a referendum urges the promoter of the Bill to reduce the trial period on the Lisbon treaty, but when it came to it they did not. to just one year, because we can get a perfectly good I do not want just to rely on the word of the Minister, flavour of what is going to happen in that time. Of although I accept the good faith in which he made his course there would then be the opportunity, if everyone point. He might move on to pastures new, however, and so wished, to carry out another trial beyond that period. the Bill does not mention the Government’s view. It says I do not see why we should be boxed into having a what the Secretary of State will do, not the Government. three-year trial, as that is totally unnecessary. The Minister might well be expressing the intention of My amendment 38 deals with the monitoring of the the current Secretary of State, but before we get to any effect of the order. Clause 6, to which my amendment trial we might have a different Secretary of State who relates, provides for a situation in which the Secretary of holds a different view and comes from a different party. State monitors the effect of the order “throughout the period” and then lectures all the parts of the United Mr Reid: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for Kingdom—the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly giving way. For the avoidance of doubt, I want to put it and the Northern Ireland Assembly—on his conclusions on the record that I am delighted to accept the assurances and, therefore, what he thinks should happen. My that my hon. Friend the Minister gave. I know that my amendment merely asks that reports are also sought hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is from the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and concerned that this might not apply to a future Secretary the Northern Ireland, so that they can equally make it of State, but my hon. Friend the Minister gave his clear what their report on the trial is. Rather than just assurances on behalf of the Government, so they apply having the Secretary of State laying down the law, it is to any future Minister in the Government. only fair that we let those parts of the United Kingdom not only have their say but be seen to have their say, Philip Davies: That is very helpful. I feared that my which is not the case at the moment. hon. Friend was going in that direction, so I would Amendment 40 would delete clause 8, which relates certainly wish to press amendment 30 to a vote as it to the power to increase the length of the trial period. I encapsulates the flavour of the lead amendment and think that a trial period of three years is on the excessive would make that requirement clear in the Bill. side, so I obviously find it nonsensical to have a clause The Bill says that the Secretary of State that then gives a power to extend the trial period. The period is already too long, so we should delete any “must consult the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers.” clause that gives a power to increase it; we really should That is slightly ambiguous, and I hope the Minister will be able to make a decision after three years. confirm that the Scottish Ministers and Welsh Ministers I repeat that I am most concerned about amendment 30, are the Ministers in the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish but I am aware that amendment 40 may not be accepted—I Parliament and not the Ministers in the Scotland Office do not know whether it will be or not. If it is not and the Wales Office. It would be perverse if the Secretary accepted by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle of State was consulting another Secretary of State to Point and the Minister, two further amendments I have get something through that the Government wanted. I tabled—amendments 42 and 43—would provide the hope that the Government would be consulting a different House with an alternative. Basically, before an order is body—the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly—but made to extend the trial we should either gain agreement that is not entirely clear from the Bill or from the from the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and glossary of terms at the back of it. the Northern Ireland Assembly—along the lines of the amendment promoted by my hon. Friend the Member Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman’s remark about for Argyll and Bute—or we should obtain agreement the European Union reminded me of how things change from the First Minister in Scotland, the First Minister in politics. I can remember in the last Parliament the in Wales and the First Minister in Northern Ireland, Liberal Democrats walking out of the Chamber on the 1025 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1026

[Mr MacNeil] Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that an alternative way of dealing with this problem so far as question of an in/out referendum. Now, the people who Scotland is concerned would have been for the Government led that have found themselves in government and to have moved an amendment to the Scotland Bill, things have changed. Things could change again, which which is still going through the other place, to make this is why we need guarantees rather than intentions. We issue a devolved matter for Scotland in the same way as need the goalposts to be fixed so that we know exactly it is devolved for Northern Ireland? where we all stand. Mr Nuttall: That would, indeed, have been one way of dealing with this matter. Philip Davies: I agree and I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman clearly supports my amendment. Our job in Although I support amendment 30, I strongly oppose this House is to ensure that we have proper safeguards amendments 35 and 85. I am often in favour of the in place, based not on wishy-washy assurances but on amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley provisions on the face of the Bill. We do not want to (Philip Davies) and, indeed, those of my hon. Friends find that when we have passed something we have been the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for sold a pup on an issue that is too important to the Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and for Wellingborough future of the United Kingdom for a decision to be (Mr Bone), who tabled amendment 85. On this occasion, based merely on assurances. I do not want to go on as I however, I am not in favour of their amendment, because do not want to test the patience of the House or of my I think we need a trial period of three years. If the trial hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point because she is successful and the change proves to be of benefit and has conducted herself so well and I do not want to to achieve all that the Bill’s proponents say it will scupper the chances of our debating the next group of achieve, that will lead to a permanent change in our amendments. On that basis, I shall leave my comments time system that will affect every person in the country. there, but I want to make it clear that if the hon. Given those circumstances, it is only fair and reasonable Member for Argyll and Bute withdraws his amendment that the trial should be for a minimum of three years. So I would like to pursue my amendment 30, which is the I would oppose amendments 35 and 85 and stick to the second amendment in this group. wording of clause 5(1), which provides that the trial period be three years. Amendments 16 and 17 highlight the fact that even Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) claimed to our time is a matter that the European Union has felt it move the closure (Standing Order No. 36), but the Deputy necessary to interfere with, and it has done so by means Speaker withheld his assent and declined to put that of European directive 200/84/EC. Question.

1.45 pm Mr Nuttall: I will not detain the House for long, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have had a long debate already Mark Lazarowicz: Why does the hon. Gentleman feel on this group of amendments and I am conscious that a obliged to bring anti-Europeanism into everything? closure motion has already been moved, but I want to I do not think the directive was opposed by the UK; I deal with some specific amendments in this group. think the UK was one of the key supporters of a Before I do so, let me reiterate the thanks I expressed to directive, so why suggest that it was forced upon us by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Europe? Harris) when the House considered the money resolution. She has shown exemplary courtesy and great determination Mr Nuttall: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for to ensure that the Bill got to this stage. As I said in that his intervention. My view is that we should not be told debate, although I did not vote to curtail debate on what to do on any matter by the European Union. I Second Reading, I supported the Bill on Second Reading have a very clear view on such matters. Many people in and I intend to vote today for amendments that will this country are not aware of the existence of the strengthen the Bill and help it to achieve its objectives. I directive or of its effect. It is another example of the appreciate that many people would like a trial to take way in which the tentacles of the European Union place and I take cognisance of that regardless of my extend into areas of life into which many people do not personal views about whether it is a good or bad thing realise they extend. permanently to change the time in this country. There will be difficulty in ever achieving the aims of Leaving aside for the moment lead amendment 13, amendments 16 or 17, but in any event I think we because my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and should stick to the existing arrangement for changing Bute (Mr Reid) has indicated that he is prepared to accept the clocks in March and October, despite the fact that what the Minister has said about it, I hope that we will that it means that my birthday is fairly often affected by be given the opportunity to divide on amendment 30. the change in the clocks in the springtime when, as At a time when the whole question of Scottish independence I think is the case this year, we jump on one hour and I is rising up the political agenda in a way that it never lose an hour of my birthday. has before, some of the Bill’s provisions seem somewhat It has been suggested that amendment 38 would perverse. I can well imagine separatists in Scotland result in extra costs being incurred. I am not so sure that seizing on clause 4(4), which clearly treats Scotland, it would. I strongly support the amendment. All it calls and indeed Wales, differently to Northern Ireland. I see for are reports from the First Ministers of Scotland, no reason why we should not accept amendment 30 so Wales and Northern Ireland. They could simply write a that agreement is required from the First Ministers of brief letter saying, “Yes, we have considered the matter Scotland and Wales. and everything is in order. There is no need to consult 1027 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1028 us any further.” Amendment 38 is sound and it would Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline be sensible for it to receive the support of the House Efford, Clive Macleod, Mary and be included in the Bill. Ellison, Jane McCarthy, Kerry Elphicke, Charlie McDonnell, John I oppose amendment 40. As I said about clause 5, in Fabricant, Michael Metcalfe, Stephen view of the importance of the matter, it makes sense to Field, rh Mr Frank Michael, rh Alun have a trial period of an appropriate length. If an Fitzpatrick, Jim Morris, David increase in the length of the trial period is necessary, so Foster, rh Mr Don Munn, Meg be it. Let us have that increase. Gale, Sir Roger Munt, Tessa Gapes, Mike Murray, Ian Philip Davies: That is a perfectly respectable view for Gauke, Mr David Neill, Robert my hon. Friend to hold, although I might disagree. The Glen, John Newton, Sarah question is about the basis on which we decide that we Godsiff, Mr Roger Nokes, Caroline need a further period of trial. We seem to be leaving it Goldsmith, Zac O’Brien, Mr Stephen to the Government and the Secretary of State to decide. Greatrex, Tom Ottaway, Richard We surely cannot have that, or the trial will be extended Greening, rh Justine Owen, Albert Gummer, Ben Paice, rh Mr James endlessly, which surreptitiously makes it a permanent Halfon, Robert Pawsey, Mark fixture. Hammond, Stephen Penning, Mike Hands, Greg Penrose, John Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a good point, but Harper, Mr Mark Perry, Claire I notice that clause 8(4) states: Harris, Rebecca Phillips, Stephen “An order under this section is subject to affirmative resolution Harris, Mr Tom Pound, Stephen procedure”, Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Randall, rh Mr John so there would be some democratic oversight of the use Heald, Oliver Reid, Mr Alan of the power, which most people would find satisfactory. Heath, Mr David Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Herbert, rh Nick Sanders, Mr Adrian Those are my thoughts and that is how I will be Heyes, David Sandys, Laura voting. Hilling, Julie Sheerman, Mr Barry Hodge, rh Margaret Slaughter, Mr Andy Mr Knight again claimed to move the closure (Standing Hollingbery, George Smith, rh Mr Andrew Order No. 36). Hollobone, Mr Philip Stewart, Bob Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Hughes, rh Simon Syms, Mr Robert Huhne, rh Chris Tami, Mark put. Huppert, Dr Julian Tredinnick, David The House proceeded to a Division. Jackson, Glenda Vara, Mr Shailesh Jarvis, Dan Vaz, Valerie Mr Reid: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I Jones, Andrew Vickers, Martin am happy to accept the reassurances that the Minister Jones, Graham Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa gave me during the debate, and I would therefore like to Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Walley, Joan beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Kelly, Chris Weatherley, Mike Knight, rh Mr Greg Webb, Steve Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am afraid Lazarowicz, Mark Wheeler, Heather Lee, Jessica White, Chris that the hon. Gentleman is unable to do that. We are Leech, Mr John Whittingdale, Mr John now voting on whether the question be now put, and if Leslie, Charlotte Yeo, Mr Tim the decision of the House is that the question be now Leslie, Chris put, that is what I will do. If the question is negatived, Lidington, rh Mr David Tellers for the Ayes: the hon. Gentleman might have an opportunity later in Lloyd, Stephen Simon Kirby and the debate to withdraw his amendment. Lopresti, Jack Penny Mordaunt There seems to be some delay in the No Lobby. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate it. NOES The House having divided: Ayes 124, Noes 10. Bone, Mr Peter Smith, Henry Davies, Philip Division No. 433] [1.49 pm Stewart, Iain Doyle-Price, Jackie Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hosie, Stewart AYES MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tellers for the Noes: Afriyie, Adam Brooke, Annette Offord, Mr Matthew Mr Christopher Chope and Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona Rees-Mogg, Jacob Mr David Nuttall Alexander, Heidi Buck, Ms Karen Allen, Mr Graham Buckland, Mr Robert Question accordingly agreed to. Barker, Gregory Burns, rh Mr Simon Barwell, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Bayley, Hugh Collins, Damian Question put accordingly, That the amendment be Bell, Sir Stuart Colvile, Oliver made. Betts, Mr Clive Corbyn, Jeremy The House proceeded to a Division. Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cruddas, Jon Blomfield, Paul Davey, Mr Edward Bottomley, Sir Peter Davis, rh Mr David Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben de Bois, Nick Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Brake, rh Tom Docherty, Thomas Lobby. 1029 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1030

The House having divided: Ayes 11, Noes 119. Webb, Steve Yeo, Mr Tim Division No. 434] [2.4 pm Wheeler, Heather Tellers for the Noes: White, Chris Penny Mordaunt and AYES Whittingdale, Mr John Simon Kirby Bone, Mr Peter Offord, Mr Matthew Chope, Mr Christopher Rees-Mogg, Jacob Question accordingly negatived. Coffey, Dr Thérèse Smith, Henry Clause 9 Davies, Philip Stewart, Iain Doyle-Price, Jackie Tellers for the Ayes: THE END OF THE TRIAL MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stewart Hosie and Nuttall, Mr David Dr Eilidh Whiteford Philip Davies: I beg to move amendment 44, page 4, line 4, leave out paragraph (b). NOES Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it Afriyie, Adam Hughes, rh Simon will be convenient to discuss the following: Aldous, Peter Huhne, rh Chris Amendment 73, page 4, line 6, leave out paragraph (c). Alexander, Heidi Huppert, Dr Julian Amendment 74, page 4, line 8, leave out subsection (2). Allen, Mr Graham Jarvis, Dan Amendment 75, page 4, line 12, leave out subsection (3). Barker, Gregory Jones, Andrew Amendment 46, page 4, line 12, leave out ‘negative’ Barwell, Gavin Jones, Graham Bayley, Hugh Jowell, rh Tessa and insert ‘the affirmative’. Bell, Sir Stuart Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Amendment 48, page 4, line 23, leave out clause 11. Betts, Mr Clive Kelly, Chris Amendment 9, in clause 11, page 4, line 24, leave out Blackman-Woods, Roberta Knight, rh Mr Greg ‘during’ and insert Blomfield, Paul Lee, Dr Phillip ‘up to three years after’. Bottomley, Sir Peter Leech, Mr John Amendment 20, page 4, line 28, after ‘Ireland’, insert Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Leslie, Charlotte ‘the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers’. Brake, rh Tom Leslie, Chris Brooke, Annette Lidington, rh Mr David Amendment 21, page 4, line 29, leave out paragraph (b). Bruce, Fiona Lloyd, Stephen Amendment 51, page 4, line 29, leave out from ‘must’ Buck, Ms Karen Lopresti, Jack to end and insert Buckland, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary ‘obtain agreement from the Scottish First Minister and the First Burns, rh Mr Simon McCarthy, Kerry Minister of Wales.’. Collins, Damian McDonnell, John Amendment 15, page 4, line 29, at end insert— Colvile, Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen ‘(2A) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this Corbyn, Jeremy Michael, rh Alun section unless resolutions supporting the order have been passed Cruddas, Jon Morris, David by the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.’. Davey, Mr Edward Munn, Meg de Bois, Nick Munt, Tessa Philip Davies: I will try again with this group to Docherty, Thomas Murray, Ian persuade my hon. Friends of the merits of the amendments, Dowd, Jim Neill, Robert the purpose of which is not to damage the Bill or Efford, Clive Newton, Sarah prevent it from progressing, but to strengthen it. Lest Ellison, Jane Nokes, Caroline anyone be in any doubt, some of the amendments in Elphicke, Charlie O’Brien, Mr Stephen this group are similar to amendments in the previous Fabricant, Michael Ottaway, Richard group. I should make it clear that, as with the previous Field, rh Mr Frank Owen, Albert Fitzpatrick, Jim Paice, rh Mr James amendment that we have just voted on, if any of my Foster, rh Mr Don Pawsey, Mark amendments in this group were accepted at this late Gale, Sir Roger Penning, Mike stage, I would be happy to support the Bill enthusiastically, Gapes, Mike Penrose, John because my amendments would, without doubt, strengthen Gauke, Mr David Perry, Claire the Bill. However, we have to deal with the Bill as it is Glen, John Phillips, Stephen and not base our decisions on the assurances that we Godsiff, Mr Roger Pound, Stephen have received from the Minister. Goldsmith, Zac Randall, rh Mr John Amendment 44 would delete clause 9(1)(b). The clause Greatrex, Tom Ruddock, rh Dame Joan relates to the end of the trial, and I have to say in Greening, rh Justine Sanders, Mr Adrian passing that there seems to be a slight contradiction Gummer, Ben Sandys, Laura in the wording of the Bill—it may well just be a legalistic Halfon, Robert Seabeck, Alison point. The clause is entitled “The end of the trial”, but Hammond, Stephen Sheerman, Mr Barry the first sentence beneath the title states: Hands, Greg Slaughter, Mr Andy Harris, Rebecca Smith, rh Mr Andrew “The Secretary of State must, during the trial period, do one of the following”. Harris, Mr Tom Stewart, Bob Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Syms, Mr Robert I was slightly confused about that, because it seems to Heald, Oliver Tami, Mark give the Secretary of State the power to do one of the Heath, Mr David Tredinnick, David things listed at any point in the trial period, not just at Herbert, rh Nick Vara, Mr Shailesh the end as suggested by the clause title. Perhaps the Heyes, David Vaz, Valerie Minister might be able to explain why that is the case. Hilling, Julie Vickers, Martin Clause 9(1) states that the Secretary of State must do Hodge, rh Margaret Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa one of the things listed. The first is to make an order to Hollingbery, George Walley, Joan abandon the trial—that makes sense. The second, in Hollobone, Mr Philip Weatherley, Mike paragraph (b), is to make an order during the trial 1031 Daylight Saving Bill20 JANUARY 2012 Daylight Saving Bill 1032 period to advance the time by one hour permanently. period that I do not think has adequate safeguards built Given that the Bill regrettably does not contain the into it. To be helpful, however, I tabled amendment 51 safeguards that I and other hon. Members sought in the to get around that problem. If it were accepted by the previous group of amendments, I wish through amendment Minister and the promoter of the Bill, I would be 44 to prevent the Secretary of State from making such satisfied and perfectly happy to support the Bill, because an order. I do not believe that is appropriate without the it would provide adequate safeguards. safeguards that we have discussed previously, which I That touches on amendment 15, tabled by my hon. will discuss again under this group of amendments. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), Amendment 46 relates to clause 9(3), which states: which is similar to his amendment 13 in the previous “An order under subsection (2) is subject to negative resolution group. Amendment 51, too, relates to the power to procedure.” advance time by one hour permanently and not just for All the way through the Bill I have been pleased to see the trial period. If we are to do it permanently, it is not that each provision is subject to the affirmative procedure, only important to obtain the agreement of the Office of but clause 9 appears to me to be the only part of the Bill the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern that is subject to the negative procedure. The amendment Ireland but essential to obtain the agreement of the is merely intended to change that to the affirmative Scottish and Welsh First Ministers. To go ahead with a procedure, which is standard in the rest of the Bill. permanent time change without obtaining the agreement Given that that procedure has been happily accepted in of the First Ministers would fatally undermine the all other parts of the Bill, I would like to think that the future of the United Kingdom. We cannot be seen to House would be very happy to see it applied to clause 9 railroad the people of Scotland and Wales into something too. that might be against their wishes and hope that the United Kingdom will stay together. Clearly, it would no The other amendments in this group that relate to longer be sustainable. Whether people thought it appropriate clause 9 are amendments 73 to 75, which were tabled by to obtain the agreement of the Scottish or Welsh First my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). Ministers for a trial period is one thing—that is what we I am sure that we all look forward to him speaking at voted on in the previous group of amendments—but it great length about why he introduced them. It seems to must be clear to everybody that if we believe in the me—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—that United Kingdom, we must obtain that agreement before amendment 73 would simply delete clause 9(1)(c). He permanently changing the arrangement. That is what may well be able to explain why he felt that was so my amendment 51 would do. important. My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute has Amendment 74 would delete clause 9(2). I must say taken a different tack, as he has done throughout. His that as ever, my hon. Friend was far more alert than me amendment 15 would do pretty much the same as mine, in seeking to do so. It appears to give the Secretary of except that he seeks to obtain the agreement of the State wide-ranging powers without any great safeguards. Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly rather I suspect that is why he has sought to delete that than just the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers. I subsection, but of course he may well have had better would be satisfied with either amendment. In fact, reasons than that. I am sure he will be able to tell us I prefer his amendment. I think that the requirement to what they were. get the agreement of the Parliament or Assembly as a Amendment 75 would delete clause 9(3), which is the whole would provide a much better safeguard than the subsection setting out that the clause is subject to the obligation to seek only the agreement of the First negative resolution procedure. My hon. Friend may Minister. I commend him for having come up with a far well have wanted it deleted because he, too, was unhappy better amendment than mine, and I am happy to fall on with that. I would like to think that my amendment 46 my sword to pursue his agenda. would make his amendment 75 redundant. Amendments 20 and 21 have been tabled by our friends from the Scottish National party, the hon. Members for Mr Chope: I hope to have the chance to address Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and for Banff and my amendments, but I will say now that the reason Buchan (Dr Whiteford). If I read the amendments for amendment 75 is that it is consequential on my correctly—I am sure that they will correct me, if I am amendment 74. If amendment 74 succeeded and wrong—they seek to do exactly what I and my hon. subsection (2) were left out, there would not be any Friend seek in our amendments: to put in place extra need for the provisions of subsection (3). safeguards for the consultation of Scotland and Wales. Of the 11 amendments in this group, therefore, four or five would have the same effect. As for the future of the Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I Bill, I must emphasise that it cannot progress unless we am pleased that he has cleared that up. make it abundantly clear that we have the endorsement I am afraid that, through no fault of my own, time is of people in Scotland and Wales, and not just through a pressing, so we do not have much time to go through consultation, which is what it provides for at the moment. these amendments or give them the kind of scrutiny People who are consulted can then simply be ignored. that they deserve—but I shall press on. Amendment 48 That is totally and utterly unacceptable. would delete clause 11, which gives the Secretary of State the power permanently to advance the time by one hour. I seek to delete the clause partly for the reason 2.30 pm that I gave earlier. Given that the amendments in the The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)). previous group were not accepted, we should not be giving the Secretary of State this power based on a trial Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday 27 January. 1033 20 JANUARY 2012 Business without Debate 1034

Business without Debate PUBLIC BODIES (SUSTAINABLE FOOD) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. LIVE MUSIC BILL [LORDS] Bill, as amended in Committee, considered. Hon. Members: Object. Bill read the Third time, and passed, with amendments. Bill to be read a Second time on Wednesday 29 February.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT OMBUDSMAN ADOPTION (LEAVE, PAY AND ALLOWANCE (AMENDMENT) BILL (CHANGED TO LOCAL ARRANGEMENTS) BILL GOVERNMENT (REVIEW OF DECISIONS)) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill time. Committee Hon. Members: Object. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Third time. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Third time on Friday 27 January. BETTING SHOPS BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second TRANSPARENT TAXATION (RECEIPTS) BILL time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Hon. Members: Object. time. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING TENURE BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Hon. Members: Object. time. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. NHS ACUTE MEDICAL AND SURGICAL SERVICES (WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE) BILL FACE COVERING (REGULATIONS) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. MASTER’S DEGREES (MINIMUM STANDARDS) BILL EPILEPSY AND RELATED CONDITIONS Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (EDUCATION AND HEALTH SERVICES) BILL (21 October), That the Bill be now read a Second time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Hon. Members: Object. Debate to be resumed on Friday 27 April. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March. FIRE SAFETY (PROTECTION OF TENANTS) BILL LOCAL REFERENDUMS BILL Resumption of adjourned debate on Question Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second (19 November), That the Bill be now read a Second time. time. Hon. Members: Object. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. Debate to be resumed on Friday 23 March.

RECALL OF ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES SALE OF TICKETS (SPORTING AND BILL CULTURAL EVENTS) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Resumption of adjourned debate on Question time. (21 January), That the Bill be now read a Second time. Hon. Members: Object. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February. 1035 Business without Debate20 JANUARY 2012 Business without Debate 1036

KINSHIP CARERS (PARENTAL SELF-EMPLOYMENT (RISK ASSESSMENT RESPONSIBILITY AGREEMENTS) BILL EXEMPTION) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. time.

Hon. Members: Object. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

HEALTH AND SAFETY CONSULTANTS (QUALIFICATIONS) BILL NATIONAL CURRICULUM (EMERGENCY LIFE Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second SUPPORT SKILLS) BILL time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.. TRIBUNALS (MAXIMUM COMPENSATION AWARDS) BILL Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (17 June), METAL THEFT (PREVENTION) BILL That the Bill be now read a Second time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Hon. Members: Object. time. Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March. PUBLIC BODIES (DISPOSAL OF ASSETS) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second REPORTING OF INJURIES, DISEASES AND time. DANGEROUS OCCURRENCES REGULATIONS Hon. Members: Object. BILL Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. VOLUNTEERING BILL Hon. Members: Object. Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (10 June), Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object. Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February. NATIONAL PARK AUTHORITIES BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. TAXATION FREEDOM DAY BILL Resumption of adjourned debate on Question Hon. Members: Object. (25 November), That the Bill be now read a Second Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. time. Hon. Members: Object. Debate to be resumed on Friday 30 March. ACTIVITY CENTRES (YOUNG PERSONS’ SAFETY) (AMENDMENT) BILL BBC LICENCE FEE PAYERS (VOTING RIGHTS) Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second BILL time. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.. LOW HAZARD WORKPLACES (RISK ASSESSMENT EXEMPTION) BILL PARLIAMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (4 March), time. That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February. 1037 Business without Debate20 JANUARY 2012 Business without Debate 1038

APPRENTICESHIPS AND SKILLS (PUBLIC Hon. Members: Object. PROCUREMENT CONTRACTS) BILL Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP (ECONOMIC IMPLICATIONS) [LORDS] BILL Hon. Members: Object. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.. time.

Hon. Members: Object. CHILDREN (ACCESS TO PARENTS) BILL Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. COMMON FISHERIES POLICY Hon. Members: Object. (WITHDRAWAL) BILL Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

SAFE STANDING (FOOTBALL STADIA) BILL Hon. Members: Object. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January. time. HOUSE OF COMMONS DISQUALIFICATION Hon. Members: Object. (AMENDMENT) BILL Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.. Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (9 September), That the Bill be now read a Second time. BUILDING REGULATIONS (REVIEW) BILL [LORDS] Hon. Members: Object. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Debate to be resumed on Friday 27 January. time. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): On a point of Hon. Members: Object. order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is there any way of recording Bill to be read a Second time on Monday 30 January. in Hansard that my Metal Theft (Prevention) Bill was objected to by the Conservative Front-Bench team and the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands)? SAFETY OF MEDICINES BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I think that the time. hon. Gentleman has just done that. 1039 20 JANUARY 2012 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) 1040

Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) by the Law Commission—but that is not generally accepted by the industry. That means that the strict Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House duty to avoid conflicts of interest is not being applied to do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) the people actually making the decisions. That has real implications for the way in which votes are cast by City 2.41 pm fund managers who have business relationships with the Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab): I wish companies in which they invest. to make a few comments on the fiduciary duty of A recent article in Butterworths Journal of International pension fund trustees. It is just over a year since the Banking and Financial Law cited anecdotal evidence of Minister and I stood here to discuss the issue of responsible “corporate or investment banking staff overtly or subtly pressuring investment by pension funds, and in that debate we their asset management colleagues to avoid antagonising their focused particularly on transparency for fund members. clients by voting against the CEO’s pay arrangements.” So to begin with it is worth taking stock of a few Meanwhile, pension funds are often labouring under developments that have occurred since we last discussed the misapprehension that their fiduciary duty prohibits these issues. them from taking an interest in Bob Diamond’s bonuses, First, in recent weeks, the notion of “responsible for example, when, of course, properly understood, that capitalism” has risen to the top of the political agenda. is very much part of that duty. A cross-party consensus has emerged that shareholders The pervasive myth that fiduciary duty begins and must do more to tackle irresponsible corporate behaviour ends with maximising returns leads many funds to such as excessive top pay. Secondly, we have entered neglect intangible factors—excessive pay or poor 2012, the year of auto-enrolment, a process that will environmental standards—even though they may well ultimately see millions of workers begin saving for a affect the long-term returns that matter most to pension pension through the capital markets. Thirdly, casting savers. The misconception seems to put some trustees our minds back to the autumn statement, we have seen off being active owners of the companies in which they the Government turning to pension funds as a source of invest, notwithstanding efforts through the UK stewardship capital to fuel the economic recovery through infrastructure code to encourage them to do so. Still less do funds investment. believe that they can take account of the moral outrage If we put all that together, it becomes clear that the felt by their members over excessive pay deals. way pension funds invest is no longer, as the Minister Such interpretations continue to hold back pension put it in our last discussion, “a minority sport”, but a funds’ potential to play their part in a more responsible matter of acute national concern. Although much has capitalism. To put it simply, we cannot have responsible been made of the rise of foreign investors, UK pension capitalism if the capitalists think that the law prohibits funds still make up 13% of the UK stock market, with them from acting responsibly. insurance companies that provide pension products making up another 12%. So it is vital that this huge pool of I want briefly to return to the subject of transparency, capital is invested responsibly in the long-term interests which we talked about a year ago. Making companies of pension savers. Unfortunately, as a report published more accountable to shareholders will not be enough to last year by responsible investment charity FairPensions tackle “crony capitalism”: shareholders must also become showed, current interpretations of the law may hinder accountable to the ordinary savers whose capital they that objective. Fiduciary duties—our main legal mechanism invest. Among other things, that means much greater for protecting those who entrust their money to someone transparency about what is being done with our money. else—do not apply consistently across the pensions At the moment, if I want to know how my pension fund market. Worse still, they are generally interpreted as voted on Barclays’ remuneration report, for example, it forbidding pension funds from raising their sights beyond is not obliged to tell me. In his response last year, the quarterly returns. Far from protecting savers’ long-term Minister promised to raise the issue with the chair of interests, that view may in fact be damaging to them. the Pensions Regulator. I would be grateful if he updated the House on the results of their conversation and on Clarification of this seemingly obscure and technical any further developments. area of the law could unlock positive change in a range of areas: supporting jobs and growth; ensuring decent Narrow interpretations of fiduciary duty risk holding pensions; and underpinning the shift to a more responsible, back not only the responsible capitalism agenda but the resilient capitalism. The Prime Minister has indicated economic recovery. Pension savers have a clear interest that the Government want to give shareholders more in the health of the UK economy. It affects not only the powers to block excessive pay deals. That is obviously growth of their investments but their economic well-being welcome, but more searching questions need to be more generally as UK citizens, jobholders and taxpayers. asked about how shareholders are using the rights they The Treasury has picked up on that and observed that already have. Figures released by PIRC—Pensions obvious common interest when encouraging pension Investment Research Consultants Ltd—last week showed funds to invest in UK infrastructure. The Financial that since the introduction of the advisory vote on pay Secretary to the Treasury said in a recent speech to the 10 years ago just 18 remuneration packages have been National Association of Pension Funds: voted down, despite the fact that pay has risen out of all “Your investment in the UK economy can drive economic proportion to shareholder returns. Why has there been change and that change should generate more stable and sustainable such reluctance to use these powers? returns, benefitting Britain’s pensioners.” Most pension funds do not exercise voting rights The same logic can be applied to investment in the themselves, but delegate to fund managers, whose duties small and medium-sized companies that are the engine are unclear. FairPensions’ report argues that fund managers of future job generation in our economy, but that is not have fiduciary duties under common law—a view shared the logic that underpins pension fund decision making 1041 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties)20 JANUARY 2012 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) 1042

[Jon Cruddas] will look at this issue of governance because it is the single biggest regulatory difference and carries the biggest in practice. We are back to the mantra of the fiduciary danger of regulatory arbitrage. duty to maximise returns, which dictates that return A struggling employer could be forgiven for wondering must be sought wherever it is found. Given a direct why they would want to set up a trust-based scheme choice between two competing investments, there is no with all the governance implications that would entail reason for pension funds to invest in the UK rather when they could simply choose an off-the-shelf product than, say, China. Indeed, most funds would say that the from an insurance firm. However, there are obvious law legally obliges them to choose the latter if the reasons for thinking that such a decision might not risk-return profile is even marginally more attractive. serve the best interests of their employees. This is not That reduces fiduciary duty to a mathematical calculation merely a theoretical objection. I understand that that obliges trustees to chase the best return and ignore FairPensions is due shortly to publish research showing all other considerations, rather than enabling a more that the absence of clear obligations does indeed create common-sense approach, using their discretion to determine a “governance gap”. Can the Minister indicate whether how their capital can best be put to work for the benefit his Department is looking into this issue and, if so, of pension savers. Given the choice, many pension what might be done to ensure that a level playing field savers might well want to see their savings invested in for all pension savers can be established? British industry or green infrastructure but, under The overall point is that the misapplication of fiduciary conventional interpretations of the law, their views are duty is clearly a significant challenge to the Government’s irrelevant. Fiduciary duty, which exists to protect savers, vision for a strong, responsible economy and a generation risks becoming a missing link when it comes to translating with a savings culture. Conversely, a renewed understanding our savings into productive investment activity. of fiduciary duty offers an exciting opportunity to reshape our economy for the better. The FairPensions’ This is emphatically not about hijacking pension report recommends there should be statutory clarification funds’ capital to serve government ends; that could be a of fiduciary duties along the lines of directors’ duties dangerous road to go down. It is all about allowing under the Companies Act 2006 to make it clear that them the discretion to take a broad and enlightened pension funds can consider a range of factors beyond view of what is in the beneficiaries’ interests, rather quarterly returns such as the impact of their investments than prescribing an approach that might not serve on the wider economy, environmental and social issues savers in the long run. Let us not forget that it was and their members’ ethical views. It also recommends today’s interpretation of the law that saw pension funds that the Department for Work and Pensions should pile into triple-A-rated shares in banks whose risky produce guidance for pension fund trustees on the activities ultimately decimated pension fund value. If interpretation of their fiduciary duties. funds had been encouraged to think about the sustainability of those returns, rather than just the When those recommendations were debated through share price, their beneficiaries might have been better a probing amendment to the Pensions Bill, the Minister served in the long-run. helpfully put on record his view that “it is not the duty of trustees simply to maximise short-term That brings me to the third area in which policy returns.”––[Official Report, Pensions Public Bill Committee, 14 July makers ignore debates about fiduciary duty at their 2011; c. 329.] peril—auto-enrolment. The Pensions Regulator estimates In other words, the measures proposed by FairPensions that between 5 million and 8 million people will be that I have talked about would amount to clarification newly saving, or saving more, as a result of the 2012 rather than a radical departure from existing legal principles reforms. Many of those people will be low-paid workers in terms of trustees’ duties. This might prompt some to and there is a huge responsibility on the Government to ask whether statutory definition is really needed if the ensure that their savings are responsibly stewarded and underlying legal principles are sound. deliver a decent retirement income. This means ensuring that fiduciary standards of care can be applied across Some pension funds already take an enlightened the pensions market. approach to their fiduciary responsibilities. The National Employment Savings Trust is emerging as a beacon of In Committee on the Pensions Bill, the Minister best practice when it comes to responsible investment, rightly noted the importance of taking a “holistic approach” viewing it as part of its responsibility to undertake and not creating “unevenness” by putting shareholder engagement and to integrate environmental and social issues into its investment analysis. Similarly, “conditions that are not imposed on other investment vehicles on the Strathclyde pension fund offers an excellent example pension schemes”.––[Official Report, Pensions Public Bill Committee, 14 July 2011; c. 330.] of how pension funds can make investments that add genuine, sustainable economic value for their members. However, there is already unevenness between trust-based It recently announced a £100 million new opportunities pension schemes and contract-based pension arrangements, fund to invest in job creation in Glasgow with the as the latter are not subject to fiduciary duties and the proviso that it will invest only in businesses that pay governance requirements that go with them. The average the living wage. However, those examples are very much saver may struggle to see the difference between those the exception rather than the rule. The conventional two types of arrangements, but the legal niceties mean interpretation of the law is highly conservative, and this that savers are subject to completely different legal is reflected in the legal advice received by the vast protections depending on the type of scheme their majority of pension funds. It is difficult in practice to employer chooses. Last year the Minister’s Department see how this problem with the interpretation of the law consulted on “regulatory differences” between trust and can be overcome other than with an explicit clarification contract-based pension arrangements and I hope he of the law. 1043 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties)20 JANUARY 2012 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) 1044

It is also worth noting that even pension funds that Overall, therefore, it would be helpful if the Minister take an enlightened view of their fiduciary duties still gave some general indication of whether there is enthusiasm appear to believe that the law restricts their room for in Government for reform of fiduciary duty, and whether, manoeuvre in this area. For instance, one investment if it proves to be consistent with the findings of Professor officer recalls asking for legal advice on whether, when Kay’s inquiry, he will work with colleagues in the voting on a hostile takeover bid, they could consider the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to take fact that some of their beneficiaries might lose their forward this agenda. jobs. The answer was no; they could consider only the price that they would be paid for selling their shares. In 2.58 pm other words, far from being a counterweight to predatory The Minister of State, Department for Work and activities, even the most enlightened pension fund may Pensions (Steve Webb): May I begin by congratulating feel legally obliged to be complicit in these predatory the hon. Member for Dagenham and Rainham (Jon activities. For all these reasons, express clarification Cruddas) on securing this debate, which raises issues does seem to be necessary. that I know are of real concern for many people? As he To be clear, this is not a question of diluting the pointed out, it is just over a year since we were both here fiduciary duty to seek the best outcome for beneficiaries. debating the same subject. One of my colleagues who Nothing in these proposals would change the fundamental observed our last debate said that she felt that agreement principle that fiduciaries must act wholly in the best was breaking out violently all over the place. I suspect interests of their beneficiaries. Rather, it is about making that we may be in similar territory today, because I have fiduciary duty work better in today’s complex financial a great deal of sympathy with the points that the hon. markets. Indeed, we must seriously ask whether fiduciary Gentleman raised. duty as currently understood is doing its job properly. To be clear from the outset, I should say that the From 2002 to 2007, pension fund payments to coalition Government fully support the highest standards intermediaries rose by some 50%, while returns collapsed of corporate governance and ethical behaviour. We to an average of 1.1% per year. If the main purpose of agree that a socially responsible investment strategy is a fiduciary duties is to make sure that savers come first sound choice for pension schemes, and we recognise the and that agents do not profit at their expense, these importance of the issues raised by FairPensions. I welcome figures suggest that something is badly wrong. It is not the fact that the points made by the hon. Gentleman a question of imposing new regulatory burdens on chime with the emphasis that both the Prime Minister pension funds, but rather the opposite: clearing away and Deputy Prime Minister recently placed on responsible perceived legal barriers and restoring common sense to capitalism. Although not directly related to the duties the law. of pension funds, the call by my right hon. Friend the FairPensions’ proposals are aimed at creating an Deputy Prime Minister for much greater corporate enabling environment, freeing trustees from the fear transparency and the need to unlock shareholder power that they may face legal liability if they depart from indicate the coalition Government’s intention of addressing received wisdom about how they must invest. This is some of the wider concerns raised by the hon. Gentleman true of both the recommendation for statutory clarification, today. and the recommendation for DWP guidance. I would like to emphasise the significant contribution that FairPensions has made to inform the debate on In relation to guidance, I tentatively suggest that the these issues. I have had a number of discussions with it Charity Commission’s recent update of its investment and, as the hon. Gentleman said, its director is now guidance for charitable trustees might prove a useful a member of our trustee panel and I joined her for a departure point. It has helped to clarify that fiduciary meeting earlier this week. I hope that he will be reassured duty is not a set of handcuffs that prevent trustees from that that perspective is very much in the room when considering anything but financial return. In particular, these issues are considered. it has sought to give comfort by stating that The hon. Gentlemen touched on the important role “if trustees have considered the relevant issues, taken advice of the investments of pension funds in fuelling economic where appropriate and reached a reasonable decision, they are recovery in the UK. As he rightly said, the Chancellor unlikely to be criticised for their decisions or adopting a particular investment policy.” announced in his autumn statement that the Government have signed a memorandum of understanding with two I understand that the Minister’s officials have been groups of UK pension funds to unlock additional engaging with FairPensions since the publication of investment in UK infrastructure, including the National their report about the possibility of guidance, and I Association of Pension Funds, the Pension Protection wonder whether the Minister might update the House Fund, to which I will return, and a separate group on any progress that his Department has made on this representing pension plans and infrastructure fund recommendation. managers. Of course, I understand that the Government might The Government are also establishing an infrastructure wish to wait for the results of the Kay review of UK investment forum with the Association of British equity markets before making firm commitments. I Insurers—he mentioned the role of insurance companies— understand that fiduciary duty forms part of Professor which will explore ways to ensure that capital markets Kay’s remit, and that it has been discussed extensively continue to provide an efficient and attractive source of during his first phase of consultation. If Professor Kay debt finance for infrastructure projects. The Government does make recommendations on this issue, the Government will target up to £20 billion of investment from those will clearly need to consider those alongside the initiatives, which we hope will lead to a step change in recommendations already made in the FairPensions the use of pension scheme assets to fuel our economic report. recovery. 1045 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties)20 JANUARY 2012 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) 1046

[Steve Webb] Research by the Pensions Regulator has found that approximately half of employers with a contract-based The hon. Gentleman referred to the FairPensions scheme do have some form of governance arrangement March 2011 report on fiduciary duty. I entirely agree over and above what is legally required. These range that that has done a good job in raising awareness about from a very informal review on an ad hoc basis by some of the important issues relating to the role of employer representatives, through to more formal pension trustees in the governance and conduct of arrangements involving a wider range of parties, which firms, and the role of advisers. One of the concerns may involve employee representatives. I do recognise consistently raised by FairPensions is that the extent of that that does not wholly equate with a trustee’s fiduciary a trustee’s fiduciary duty is frequently misunderstood. duty, since there is no obligation on an employer to As he said, I pointed out in the Pension Bill Committee, establish such a committee, and where they do exist and am happy to say, albeit in front of a slightly more there is a wide variation in their terms of reference, select gathering on this occasion, that I am absolutely membership and powers. clear that fiduciary duty does not simply mean that In May last year, my Department issued detailed someone must maximise short-term investment returns guidance on default funds in auto-enrolment to ensure at all costs. I am also clear—again on the record—that the quality of a DC pension scheme’s default fund. This those duties do not prevent trustees from considering will be vital to the success of automatic enrolment as environmental, social and governance practices. Indeed, most individuals will not be making a choice about as part of the discharge of their fiduciary duty, it would their investment fund and will be enrolled into a scheme’s be perfectly reasonable for pension trustees to ask searching default option. Reflecting on what the hon. Gentleman questions about the environmental, social and governance said, that gives us an opportunity for scale. If the vast practices of those firms their scheme was investing in. majority of people end up in the default funds, and we There is no reason why trustees cannot take ethical and can get the default funds right, there is potential for governance issues into account when making investment good practice to be spread quite widely. decisions, solely subject to their making sure they comply with the legislative requirements relating to scheme The guidance sets out the standards that pension investments, and the provisions of their scheme’s statement schemes, advisers and employers should follow to ensure of investment principles. that the default fund is of sufficient quality. Those standards cover charges, governance, risk management, I come now to the hon. Gentleman’s point about review and communications. The guidance was developed 2012 and the direction in which we are travelling. We with employers, the pension industry, consumer groups have seen only recently the closure of the final salary and advisers to ensure not only that it is user friendly scheme of a FTSE 100 company open to new members— but that it strikes the right balance between prescription another mark in the move away from direct benefit and allowing flexibility. pensions—and we are moving into a world of auto- enrolment, which will not exclusively be into contract-based On the question of charges, evidence suggests that defined contributions, but clearly many of the providers the vast majority of schemes have appropriately low will be structured in that way, and I want to come on to fund charges, but there is always a possibility that that. As he says, between 5 million and 8 million people charges could rise to inappropriately high levels in the will be saving for the first time, or saving more, in a future. That is why we took powers under the Pensions workplace pension. Against this backdrop, the hon. Act 2008 to regulate and set a charge cap, should Gentleman’s points about how pension fund assets are charges become inappropriately high, given that even managed, and more directly the fiduciary duty of those relatively small differences in charges can have a big managing the assets, are very important. I am grateful impact on someone’s pension pot. The hon. Gentleman to the hon. Gentleman for his comments about NEST will know that we extended those powers in the Pensions being a beacon of best practice, and I will certainly look Act 2011, for which I was responsible. at the examples he gave of the Strathclyde pension fund In the meantime, other initiatives are progressing. and the recent Charity Commission guidance, which Hon. Members might recall that the Investment Governance sounds helpful in this regard. Group, an industry group jointly sponsored by the Looking beyond NEST—obviously the “t” stands for Pensions Regulator, the Department for Work and Pensions “trust”—clearly a key difference between trust-based and the Treasury, has developed principles for best occupational pension schemes and contract-based schemes practice in investment governance of work-based pension that are used for automatic enrolment is the fact that schemes. That guidance was published shortly before occupational schemes have trustees who have a fiduciary our previous debate and comprises six principles covering duty to act in the best interests of the members. As he the three stages of investment governance: governance said, last year the Government issued a call for evidence structure, investment choices and monitoring, and on the regulatory differences between the two sorts of communications. It is available on the Pensions Regulator’s pension schemes. While some respondents, such as the website. The aim of the principles is to encourage better hon. Gentleman, were concerned that there was no investment governance and decision making by all equivalent protection for the investments of members stakeholders, and to provide a practical checklist to of workplace personal pensions, others pointed out benchmark a scheme’s investment governance processes that many providers of workplace personal pensions— against best practice. contract-based—do have alternative arrangements in Two additional pieces of work from that group might place, such as governance committees. It does seem to be of interest to the hon. Gentleman. First, the Pensions be the case that many employers are increasingly moving Regulator is working closely with the National Association towards arrangements for employee engagement through of Pension Funds to produce a report on defined benefit the establishment of such management or governance case studies, and considering investment strategies and committees. approaches to ethical investments. Secondly, the National 1047 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties)20 JANUARY 2012 Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) 1048

Association of Pension Funds is assisting the regulator drawn attention to the issues raised in the FairPensions in the preparation of a video podcast on the governance report from March 2011, which have been echoed by of small schemes, which I think will consist of at least the hon. Gentleman today. two downloads. I understand that both those products Surprisingly, trustees are not obliged to disclose should be ready for publication soon. information about investments or their investment decisions Much more recently, on 6 December 2011, the Pensions to scheme members. It seems odd, given that it is our Regulator published a press release entitled “Six principles money, that we have so little ability to find out what is for good workplace DC”. This set out the regulator’s being done with it. The Pensions Regulator is therefore principles for good design and governance of DC schemes, working with my Department to consider ways of and invited the industry to take part in a dialogue on introducing more transparency into schemes, and ways the principles and the detailed criteria that sit underneath in which members could be better updated with information them. Publication of those high-level principles is the on their scheme. I shall be meeting the chair and the next step in the regulator’s ongoing engagement with chief executive of the Pensions Regulator later this the pensions sector to improve standards of DC provision month, when we will discuss the issue further. I venture and ensure that the sector is ready to support auto- to suggest that it will be slightly higher on the agenda enrolment. following the hon. Gentleman’s repeated interventions, I want briefly to mention the Pension Protection for which I am grateful to him. Fund. Someone told me recently that, in five to 10 years’ The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Kay review, which time, the PPF will be the biggest pension fund in the is obviously crucial. Professor Kay is examining UK land, which is a slightly depressing thought. It is an equity markets and their impact on the long-term operationally independent arm’s length organisation performance and governance of UK business. His that was set up by Parliament. Like NEST, the investment independent review will consider a number of the issues strategy of the Pension Protection Fund is an example that have been raised today, and its report is due later of the Government seeking to promote best practice in this year. Professor Kay kindly came to speak with me investment strategy, in this case through a non-departmental about the review on 3 November 2011, and I took the public body. In its statement of investment principles, opportunity to raise the concerns raised by FairPensions published in November 2010, the PPF board makes it about fiduciary duty and short-termism. I am hopeful clear that it will act in the best financial interests of the that he will consider them in the course of his work. fund and its beneficiaries in seeking the best return that The Kay review is examining the extent to which is consistent with a prudent and appropriate level of equity market participants are excessively focused on risk. The board believes that it must act as a responsible short-term outcomes, and what actions might be taken and vigilant asset owner and market participant, and to address such problems if they exist. It will explore the take account of the environmental, social and governance incentives, motivations and timescales of all participants factors that can have an impact on the long-term in the equity markets, as well as the fiduciary duties of performance of its investment. There is therefore a pension funds and their role as long-term investors. I stress on long-termism and active engagement by this assure the hon. Gentleman that we will look very seriously major owner of corporate Britain. I am sure that the at what Professor Kay has to say. I do not want to hon. Gentleman will also welcome the fact that the PPF pre-empt that at this stage, but I will work closely with board is a signatory to the United Nations principles of my colleagues in other Departments on any issues raised responsible investment, a set of best practice principles by the review that need to be considered further. on responsible investment. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his persistence. This The hon. Gentleman asked about discussions with is an important issue, and I hope that he will continue to the Pensions Regulator. When we debated these issues raise it. in December 2010, he asked whether I would be prepared to raise the issue of transparency with Michael O’Higgins, Question put and agreed to. who was then the incoming chair of the Pensions Regulator. I can confirm that I have had a number of discussions 3.10 pm with the chair in the past 12 months, and that I have House adjourned.

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Brussels. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Written Ministerial Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Minister with responsibility for Agriculture and Statements Food will represent the UK. Stewart Stevenson MSP and Alun Davies AM will also attend. Friday 20 January 2012 In the morning, following a presentation of the Danish presidency’s programme for the next six months, the Commission will present their animal welfare strategy, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER published this week. In the afternoon there will be a discussion on the Statutory Register of Lobbyists single common market organisation (CMC) Regulation as part of the CAP reform package. This item will cover market intervention measures, role of producers’ The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark organisations, crisis management and competition policy. Harper): Today the Government have launched a At lunch the Commission (José Manuel Barroso— consultation on initial proposals to introduce a statutory president of the Commission and Dacian Ciolos— register of lobbyists. The consultation will run until Agriculture Commissioner) will be hosting an event 13 April 2012 and a consultation paper (Cm 8233) is launching celebrations of the 50th anniversary of the available on the Cabinet Office website. A copy of the CAP. consultation document will also be placed in the House Library. Environment Council We believe the introduction of a statutory register will be an important step towards increasing transparency The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and and rebuilding public trust in politics. Our initial proposals Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I represented are that any individual or firm who lobbies for a third the UK at the Environment Council in Brussels on party for money must put themselves on the register 19 December. Stewart Stevenson, Scottish Minister for and disclose their clients. We think it is important that Environment and Climate Change, also joined the the public should be able to see who is lobbying Ministers, delegation. and for whom. That is why there is already a requirement Following lengthy debate, the Council adopted that Ministers should publish details of who they are conclusions on implementation of the EU biodiversity meeting, at least quarterly. We believe it is right that strategy to 2020. I indicated the need for speedy lobbying companies should disclose who is paying them implementation, and highlighted the UK’s own national to lobby Government. biodiversity strategy. I also emphasised the importance We suggest that individuals or companies lobbying of fully implementing the resource mobilisation strategy. for themselves should not be covered by a register In relation to CAP, I reiterated our view that the best because the disclosure requirements on Ministers will way to help the environment was through targeted show this activity already. We hope for a wide range of measures under pillar 2: environment outcomes are responses on all our proposals, but we are particularly most cost-effectively delivered by longer-term, targeted interested to hear views on whether organisations like interventions. NGOs and charities, which do not lobby for others for Ministers also adopted conclusions on the resource money but are advancing agendas, should be covered. efficiency road map. The Commission underlined the We are also consulting as to how, if at all, trade union importance of this agenda for the future of the European activities should be covered. economy. I brought attention to significant savings we The Government are clear that it is not our intention have identified UK businesses could make via increased to propose that individuals taking up issues with Ministers, resource efficiency, and stressed the importance of this or companies discussing matters of mutual interest with agenda in making the transition to a “green” economy, Government should be covered by the requirement to not just in the EU, but also globally in the context of register. These are vital democratic functions and covered Rio plus 20. I also highlighted that businesses were by the disclosure requirement on Government Departments. leading the drive towards more efficient resource use We are interested in views on whether our definitions and it was important to draw on their expertise. meet this objective. The presidency informed the Council of progress made Any proposals for a statutory register should not on: the proposal for a regulation of the European impinge on the ability of charities to lobby or on a Parliament and of the Council on control of major constituent’s ability to lobby their own MP. accident hazards involving dangerous substances (“Seveso III” This is a complicated area, and we are hoping for a directive); the proposal for a regulation of the European wide range of consultation responses to help us produce Parliament and of the Council concerning the export proposals which are proportionate and practical. and import of hazardous chemicals (PIC); and the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Directive 1999/32/EC as ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS regards the sulphur content of marine fuels. On the latter, I supported the elements of the Commission’s Agriculture and Fisheries Council proposal that aligned it with the relevant 2008 International Maritime Organisation agreement, as it would provide much-needed certainty for industry and would deliver The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and significant environmental benefits. However, I also Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The next Agriculture emphasised that the economic impact on the industry and Fisheries Council is on Monday 23 January in must be minimised. 49WS Written Ministerial Statements20 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

After lunch, over which Ministers continued to discuss The ITT contains less specification than in previous the importance of resource efficiency, there was an competitions, with a stronger focus on outcomes, for exchange of views on the result of the 17th conference example on passenger satisfaction, rather than detailed of the parties (COP 17) to the United Nations framework prescriptive inputs. We expect the additional flexibility convention on climate change (UNFCCC) in Durban. set out in the ITT to enable bidders to provide both a Most member states agreed that the result was an better service for passengers and an improved financial important step forward, and that the EU’s speaking return for taxpayers. with one voice, with a clear position, and in coalition However, we will continue to specify core requirements with the least developed countries and small island and to manage overall compliance of key deliverables, states, were key factors that contributed to the success such as performance and service quality. The franchise of the conference, and elements which should be built will contain new obligations based around passenger upon in future. Many member states noted, however, satisfaction with stations, trains and customer services. that there are still significant challenges to be overcome The franchise length of up to 15 years including an in the coming months, such as defining the EU’s emission option to extend by 20 months is intended to encourage reduction target, the length of the second commitment the development of long-term relationships between period of the Kyoto protocol, and how to tackle the the operator and stakeholders, giving greater scope to issue of surplus assigned amount units. I made the case challenge and reduce excessive industry costs. We also that further progress depended on the EU’s leadership, expect the certainty provided by a long franchise to and to this end I made the case that an EU emissions encourage investment in assets such as stations, by reduction target of 30% (compared to 1990 levels) was extending the period over which commercially attractive the right place to be in 2020. schemes can pay back. The new franchisee will take over full repairing responsibilities for the 17 stations they manage. We believe that cost savings can be achieved TRANSPORT through combining roles currently split between the operator and Network Rail in relation to stations. Intercity West Coast Rail Franchise A new risk-sharing mechanism based on macro-economic variables has been introduced to remove some of the The Minister of State, Department for Transport perverse operator behaviour experienced under the cap (Mrs Theresa Villiers): In May last year, the then Secretary and collar system, while still providing an appropriate of State announced that the next intercity west coast allocation of risk between the taxpayer and the operator. franchise would start on 9 December 2012. Cap and collar led to stronger concentration on The Department for Transport has today published revenue generation schemes rather than on cost reduction an invitation to tender to mark the commencement of because support was available in the event of the formal bidding stage of the competition to replace underperformance on revenue. Our new risk-sharing the current operator on the west coast main line. The mechanism helps create a more balanced approach to new franchise will continue through to March 2026, this revenue and costs when bidders are considering how date being aligned to the introduction of high-speed to develop their business. services along the proposed HS2 route. A profit-share mechanism has been introduced to Increasing capacity and tackling overcrowding is our enable the taxpayer to benefit from a share in profits priority. Some 106 extra “Pendolino” carriages are being above an agreed threshold which the franchise has provided for the west coast. In addition to the 45% generated, while continuing to provide sufficient incentive increase in capacity delivered in December 2008, 31 existing for the franchisee to outperform. Pendolinos are being lengthened from 9 to 11 carriages The franchise will specify the introduction of ITSO-based and four new trains are being introduced, increasing the smart ticketing. The introduction of smart ticketing number of standard class seats on each train by almost will provide significant benefits for passengers and the 50%, from 320 to 470. use of the ITSO standard will enable the same card to In all, the 106 new carriages will make 28,000 extra be used on a range of different public transport services. seats available each day, an increase of 25%. We expect The intercity west coast ITT takes forward the franchising that the additional and lengthened trains will be targeted reforms set out in January 2011. Given the diversity of on those routes and times of day with the highest the rail network, our approach will be adapted to meet demand. the individual requirements of different franchises. Future It was further announced in May that a consultation franchise contracts will not be identical but common would take place on a revised train service requirement themes will underlie all of them, including an emphasis (TSR). A summary of and response to this consultation on innovation, passenger satisfaction and greater has also been published today on the Department for commercial freedom to respond to the needs of passengers. Transport website. The TSR has been designed to give bidders greater flexibility to respond to passenger demand and run WORK AND PENSIONS their businesses in a more commercial way within a framework set by the franchise that protects key outcomes Draft Occupational Pension Schemes and Pension for passengers, taxpayers and the economy. The TSR Protection Fund (Equality) (Amendment) Regulations requires the provision of the same number of weekly stops at each station as set out in the current franchise; but will allow the franchisee to vary the capacity provided The Minister of State, Department for Work and on individual days of the week in order to cater for the Pensions (Steve Webb): The Government have today variations in daily demand. begun consultation on draft regulations to ensure domestic 51WS Written Ministerial Statements20 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS legislation reflects the effect of current European case difficult. As we wish to offer as much help as is practical, law regarding the obligation on pension schemes to we have also published today, for consultation, one treat men and women equally. possible method of equalisation. The draft regulations will amend domestic legislation This suggested method of equalisation will not have to reflect the specific point that, where an inequality in any force of law and there will be no obligation on pension scheme rules results from the legislation governing schemes to use it. However, the Government hope that the guaranteed minimum pension, the scheme is required experts in the pensions industry will engage constructively to equalise, even where no opposite sex comparator with it and, as a result, schemes will know that the exists. revised version will have been published after a consideration The Government have been advised by a number of of a large range of views. organisations that some schemes with guaranteed minimum A copy of this consultation document will be placed pension liabilities have been finding equalisation action in the House Library.

971W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 972W

Written Answers to £ million Treasury Solicitor’s Questions Department (TSOL)1 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Capital 3.610 1.800 1.800 Friday 20 January 2012 Funding 1 The funding allocated via the spending review process for the Treasury Solicitor’s Department also covers the Attorney-General’s Office and HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate. ATTORNEY-GENERAL £ million Buildings Crown Prosecution Service 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General who owns Total Resource 629.10 620.89 592.48 the buildings in which the staff of the Treasury Funding Solicitor’s Department are based; and if he will make a Capital 5.10 2.62 2.70 statement. [91147] Funding

The Solicitor-General: One Kemble Street is owned £ million by TS Kingsway Investments S.A.R.L. of Tishmann Serious Fraud Speyer Properties UK Ltd 61 Aldwych 6th Floor London Office 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 WC2B 4AE. Southern House Croydon—of which part of a floor Total Resource 36.931 33.859 32.130 Funding is leased by TSol—is owned by Whittles Properties Capital 3.100 1.580 1.600 Croydon Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of BRB Funding (Residuary) Limited (″BRBR″) of Whittles House, 14 Pentonville Road, London N1 9HF. Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General how many full-time equivalent staff were employed in the (a) Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General what Crown Prosecution Service, (b) Serious Fraud Office recent value-for-money assessment he has made of the and (c) Treasury Solicitor’s Department in (i) 2010-11 location of the Treasury Solicitor’s Department; and if and (ii) 2011-12; how many he expects to be employed he will make a statement. [91148] in each such organisation in 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [91151] The Solicitor-General: TSol has occupied its headquarters at One Kemble Street since 2005, HM Treasury having The Attorney-General: The information requested is approved a business case for a move to this location in contained in the following table. 2003. It is within a convenient distance of most of Full-time staff equivalent (FTE) employed TSol’s clients, the Royal Courts of Justice and the Inns 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 of Court. average approximate estimated number average number number of As a cost reduction measure, in 2009-10 TSol introduced FTE during FTE as of 31 FTE staff for arrangements for more efficient use of working space. Department the year December 2011 the year This enabled TSol to sub-let three floors of One Kemble Street to public sector tenants, realising an annual saving Treasury 947 1,005 1,014 of £1.5 million on estate costs. Solicitor’s Department A rent review has just been concluded resulting in no (TSol) increase in rent. Crown 8,094 7,454 7,049 Prosecution Crown Prosecution Service Service Serious Fraud 317 1300 358 Office Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General how much 1 FTE staff actually in post as of 31 December 2011. funding he allocated to the (a) Crown Prosecution The figures for 2012-13 are projections based on Service, (b) Serious Fraud Office and (c) Treasury existing departmental budgets and forecast business Solicitor’s Department in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and requirements but may be subject to future change. (iii) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [91149] The DEFRA legal team became part of TSol in June The Attorney-General: The information requested is 2011 resulting in an increase in staff numbers from that contained in the following tables. date.

£ million Treasury BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Solicitor’s Apprentices: Devon Department 1 (TSOL) 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Total Resource 12.946 11.976 11.976 for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Funding employers in (a) Newton Abbot constituency and 973W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 974W

(b) Devon have received payments to take on their first Apprentices: Yorkshire and the Humber young apprentice under the Government’s incentive scheme. [90950] Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) men and (b) women enrolled in apprenticeships in (i) information and communication technology and Mr Hayes: The Apprenticeship programme is demand (ii) engineering and manufacturing technology in led and take-up of apprenticeships by area depends on (A) Haltemprice and Howden constituency, (B) East employer demand. We are therefore unable to provide Yorkshire and (C) the Humberside region in the latest estimates of the geographical distribution of those period for which figures are available. [91059] companies which will benefit from the incentive payments which the Government announced in November. Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship starts by gender in Information and Communication Nationally we plan to make 40,000 incentive payments Technology, Engineering and Manufacturing Technologies available for small companies who are not currently and all Sector Subject Areas in the Yorkshire and the engaged in the Apprenticeships programme who take Humber region, East Riding of Yorkshire local authority on their first apprentices aged 16-24. The National and Haltemprice and Howden parliamentary constituency, Apprenticeship Service is currently working up a detailed in the 2010/11 academic year, based on provisional delivery plan and companies will be able to benefit by data. Data are based on the home postcode of the April this year. learner.

Table 1: Apprenticeship starts by gender and sector subject area in Haltemprice and Howden parliamentary constituency, East Riding of Yorkshire local authority and the Yorkshire and the Humber region, 2010/11 (provisional data) Information and Engineering and Communication Manufacturing Technology Technologies All apprenticeships

Haltemprice and Howden constituency Female 10 — 390 Male 10 90 320 Total 20 90 710

East Riding of Yorkshire local authority Female 80 140 1,890 Male 260 1,730 3,480 Total 340 1,870 5,360

Yorkshire and the Humber region Female 390 410 28,900 Male 2,370 6,420 25,020 Total 2,760 6,840 53,920 Notes: 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Total figures may not add up due to rounding. 2. Geography information is based upon the home postcode of the learner. Source: Individualised Learner Record

Information on the number of apprenticeship starts Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation is published in a quarterly Statistical First Release and Skills (BIS) collects information from small businesses (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 27 October via the SME Business Barometer, a regular survey of 2011: around 500 SME employers, which includes information http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ relating to the effect of late payments. In the latest statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current survey (August 2011), late payment from other businesses Information on apprenticeship starts by geographic and individual customers was the second most common breakdown, gender and sector subject areas are available cause of cashflow difficulties (cited by 58% of businesses). in the SFR Supplementary Tables: This is particularly problematic in the construction industry, where 80% of SMEs viewed late payment http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ from individuals as a cause of cashflow difficulty. Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/ Of the SMEs that offered credit to customers, 21% said that late payment was a big problem, while 35% Business: Billing said it was not a problem. Again, SMEs in the construction sector were more likely to regard late payment as Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for problematic. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the effect of late payments by (a) the public In relation to payments from central Government, sector and (b) other creditors on small businesses; and 39% of SMEs said they were paid slowly, an increase of how many such businesses he estimates have become 17 percentage points since the last barometer in February, insolvent as a result of late payment by creditors in the with 43% of SMEs saying that they are usually paid latest period for which figures are available. [90952] later than 30 days after the receipt of the invoice. 975W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 976W

Within the public sector, we are establishing central Higher Education: Admissions Government sector as a payment exemplar with a commitment that central Departments pay 80% of invoices John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for within five days and that main suppliers must pay Business, Innovation and Skills how many people contractors within 30 days. We require tier 1 contractors applied to study at UK universities in each (holding public sector contracts) to pay tier 2 suppliers parliamentary constituency in 2011. [88822] within 30 days by means of a contract condition, and Crown representatives will strongly encourage them to Mr Willetts: The information has been provided by pay more quickly than 30 days, to ensure the benefits of the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) prompt payment are felt through the supply chain. and is shown in a table which will be placed in the Suppliers and subcontractors working on Government Library of the House. contracts can report instances of late payment to the Mystery Shopper service: Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for [email protected] Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria will be BIS achieved 95.5% 30 day payment rate in November applied by the Office for Fair Access when allocating 2011. the additional 20,000 places to institutions. [90602] Statistics covering corporate insolvencies for England Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Funding Council and Wales do not differentiate by firm size nor by for England (HEFCE) are responsible for allocating reason(s) for failure. Therefore it is not possible to government funded places in Higher Education Institutions estimate from official statistics, how many small businesses (HEIs) in England. Bids from HEIs for places from a have become insolvent as a result of late payments. BIS competitive margin of 20,000 for the academic year has not commissioned any specific research into this 2012-13, are currently being assessed by HEFCE against issue. three criteria: demand; quality and average fee. Guidance Ceramics: Industry about the bidding process is published on the HEFCE website at: Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2011/11_30/ Business, Innovation and Skills what support his Office for Fair Access Department provides to the ceramics industry; and if he will make a statement. [90645] Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: The ceramics industry has access to the full Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration he range of Government support available which includes has given to allowing student representatives to sit on Business Link, the Manufacturing Advisory Service, the board of the Office of Fair Access. [90344] the Regional Growth Fund and the Technology Strategy Mr Willetts: The Office for Fair Access does not have Board. a board. As part of the Autumn Statement, we announced a The Director of Fair Access does, however, have a package that will reduce the impact of energy and small advisory group. The members of this group are climate change policies on the cost of electricity for Aaron Porter, a past President of the National Union of those energy intensive industries, such as ceramics, whose Students; Dr John Selby, previously Director of Widening international competitiveness is most affected by these Participation at the Higher Education Funding Council policies. This package of measures will be worth around for England; and Dr Lee Elliott Major, Research Director £250 million to Energy Intensive Industries to reduce at the Sutton Trust. The membership and remit of this their energy bills, subject to state aid approval, group is a matter for the Director himself. In addition, there will be investment available for In his guidance to institutions on access agreements commercial and industrial energy efficiency projects published in March 2011, the Director said that he through the Green Investment Bank, and on 6 December expected that institutions would want to consult prospective we launched a £125 million challenge fund to boost UK and current students when developing and revising advanced manufacturing supply chains. Both of these their access agreements. He recognised that many schemes will be open to bids from the ceramics industry. institutions already consulted their student unions. Further Education: Part-time Education Regional Growth Fund: Longbridge

Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been to ensure that all access and foundation courses are made on discussions on the Longbridge Regional available on a part-time basis. [90601] Growth Fund bid. [91054] Mr Willetts: It is for individual institutions, as Mr Prisk: The Longbridge Regional Growth Fund autonomous bodies, to determine the mix of courses bid has been considered by the Ministerial Panel who and modes of study they offer based on learner demand asked officials to discuss aspects of the application with and their own context, circumstances and individual the applicants. These discussions are progressing well missions. and we hope to be in a position to agree support in Many access and foundation courses are now provided outline by the end of January. In parallel officials have on a part-time basis in both further and higher education commenced discussion with the applicant on the Grant institutions, and provision is increasingly being made Offer Letter which will specify the conditions which available in flexible and innovative ways. apply to the Regional Growth Fund support. 977W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 978W

Shareholders Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for announcement on 16 January 2012 of the proposed Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has closure of the Shell Technology Centre in Thornton, if made of the balance between the voting power of he will take steps to improve the UK’s attractiveness as institutional investors and individual shareholders of a location to undertake research and development. companies listed on the London Stock Exchange. [90764] [91000] Mr Willetts: The Government are committed to ensure that we maintain and strengthen the UK’s position as Mr Davey: The latest data from the Office for National one of the most innovative economies in the world. We Statistics (ONS) show that institutional investors hold a are absolutely determined to create the right conditions large proportion of shares in UK listed companies, for business investment and growth in research and relative to individual shareholders. Whereas institutions development and innovation, and we believe that hold 40% of UK shares, individuals own only 10%. international companies will be keen to take advantage Note: of these conditions. The definition used for institutional shareholders includes insurance companies, pension funds, unit trusts, investment trusts and To deliver on this we have focused on: creating the ‘other financial institutions’. most competitive tax system in the G20 by cutting the main rate of corporation tax from 28% to 26% in April Shell and by 2014 it will reach 23%--the lowest rate in the G7 and 5th lowest in the G20; making the UK the best place Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for in Europe to start, finance and grow a business. Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the The Government also have a range of policies supporting announcement on 16 January 2012 of the proposed R and D including significant financial support for closure of the Shell Technology Centre in Thornton, business investment, a supportive tax regime; a regulatory what discussions he has had with Shell management on regime that is business friendly and modern infrastructure retaining its research and development capability in the that enables the UK to be internationally competitive. UK. [90762] The recently-published (December 2011) Innovation Mr Willetts: Following the announcement of the and Research Strategy for Growth builds on the UK’s closure of the site at Thornton, Shell have reaffirmed to recognised strengths and sets out how the Government officials at the Department for Business, Innovation will work with business and the knowledge base to and Skills, their commitment to maintaining their research underpin private sector-led growth. and development profile in the UK and are relocating For example, through the Technology Strategy Board the remaining 280 product development jobs at Thornton (TSB) we will invest over £1 billion in business-led to London and Manchester. Their continued research R and D over the current spending review period. By and development activity in the UK includes research matching these public sector investments with UK and partnerships with a number of UK universities and a UK-based business, the TSB will have generated a partnership with the Energy Technologies Institute on £2 billion programme of investment in innovation in projects to address future energy challenges. the period to 2011-15. We will continue to support investment in high- Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for technology sectors. Over £200 million will be invested Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the through the TSB to establish a network of elite technology announcement on 16 January 2012 of the proposed and innovation centres, now branded as Catapults. These closure of the Shell Technology Centre in Thornton, will commercialise new and emerging technologies in what assessment he has made of the UK’s areas where there are large global market opportunities attractiveness as a location to undertake research and and a critical mass of UK capability to take advantage. development. [90763] We have also made significant improvements to the R and D tax credit. The rate for the SME scheme will Mr Willetts: The Government are committed to ensure increase to 225% from April, making it one of the most that we maintain and strengthen the UK’s position as attractive such schemes in the world. We will also encourage one of the most innovative economies in the world. We large company research and development by making are absolutely determined to create the right conditions the R and D tax credit ’above the line’ from April 2013. for business investment and growth in research and development and innovation, and we believe that international companies will be keen to take advantage of these conditions. CABINET OFFICE The latest available Organisation for Economic Charities Co-operation and Development (OECD) data shows that in 2009 22% of UK Business Enterprise R&D David Morris: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (BERD) expenditure was financed from abroad. This is Office what steps he is taking to ensure that financial more than double the prevailing EU average, and higher needs of charities are considered when establishing a than every other country in the OECD database. transforming local infrastructure initiative. [90587] In absolute terms, data are not available for more Mr Hurd: Through the Transforming Local recent years. In 2007 $5.6 million of BERD expenditure Infrastructure fund, the Office for Civil Society is making in the UK was financed from abroad. This compared to up to £30 million available so that infrastructure $2.6 million in France in 2007 and $1.6 million in organisations are able to provide better support for Germany in 2006. frontline civil society organisations. 979W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 980W

Many of the successful applicants will have a strong Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: emphasis on helping charities to address their financial As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I needs. This will include through supporting fundraising, have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the collaborative working with local business, and providing birth rate was in (a) Haltemprice and Howden constituency, better training to allow frontline civil society organisations (b) East Yorkshire, (c) the Humberside region and (d) nationally to become more financially astute, such as through in the latest period for which figures are available. 91058 better governance and management. The Total Fertility Rate (TFR) has been supplied as this is the most useful measure of an area’s fertility level. The TFR is the Charities: Closures average number of live children that a group of women would each bear if they experienced the age-specific fertility rates of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet calendar year in question throughout their childbearing lifespan. Office how many charities have closed or deregistered Total fertility rate (TFR), selected areas, 2010 with the Charity Commission since May 2010; and if Area TFR he will make a statement. [91150] (a) Haltemprice and Howden 1.75 constituency Mr Hurd: This is a matter for the Charity Commission. (b) East Yorkshire constituency 2.02 I have, therefore, asked the Commission’s chief executive (c) Yorkshire and Humberside 1.89 to reply. region Letter from Nick Allaway, dated 19 January 2012: (d) England and Wales 2.00 In the Chief Executive’s absence, I have been asked to respond to your Written Parliamentary Question on how many charities Health have closed or deregistered with the Charity Commission since May 2010 [91150]. Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 13,517 charities have been removed from the Register of Charities Office what recent assessment he has made of since 1 May 2010. Charities are removed from the Register for a variations in the levels of subjective well-being in (a) variety of reasons. For example, a charity may have ceased to adult males, (b) adult females, (c) male children and exist or operate, or may have merged, incorporated or transferred its funds to another charity. (d) female children. [90876] Charities: Regulation Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have David Morris: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet asked the authority to reply. Office what steps he is taking to ensure that any Letter from Stephen Penneck dated January 2012: regulatory burdens associated with the operation of the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Charities Commission are not passed on to the have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking voluntary sector. [90589] the what assessment has been made of variations in the levels of subjective well-being in a) adult males, b) adult females, c) male Mr Hurd: In December 2011 the Charity Commission children and d) female children (90876). published a strategic plan, setting out how it will respond On 1 December 2011, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) to the challenge of a reducing budget over the coming published a research report entitled ‘Initial investigation into years and I am arranging for a copy to be placed in the Subjective Well-being from the Opinions Survey’ which is available House Library. The Commission will have a reduced from the following weblink: role, while prioritising its core regulatory functions. In http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/wellbeing/measuring- all its work, the Commission will encourage charity subjective-wellbeing-in-the-uk/investigation-of-subjective-well- being-data-from-the-ons-opinions-survey/initial-investigation- trustees to take their own decisions as far as possible. into-subjective-well-being-from-the-opinions-survey.html In November 2011, the Minister for the Cabinet This report provides initial experimental estimates from the ONS Office and Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Opinions Survey. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), appointed my noble Table 1 provides comparisons of the average levels of subjective Friend the Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts to review well-being for adult men and women aged 16 and over between the legal and regulatory framework for charities. The April and August 2011 in Great Britain. As with any sample review will consider the role and status of the Charity survey, estimates from the Opinions Survey are subject to sampling Commission as the sector’s regulator. It will also look at variability. Our assessment is that the differences between men reducing the burden of regulation while preserving and women’s average ratings are small and the only difference safeguards that protect the public interest. The review is that is statistically significant (at the 5 per cent level) is for the question that asks about the extent to which people feel that the expected to conclude this summer and a report of its things they do in their lives are worthwhile. findings will be published and laid in Parliament. The ONS is working with a range of stakeholders, including Childbirth other government departments and from the third sector to develop well-being measures for children and young people as part of the overall measuring National Well-being Programme. Mr David Davis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 1 Office what the birth rate was in (a) Haltemprice and Table 1: Average (mean) subjective well-being ratings: by sex ,Great Britain—April to August 2011 Howden constituency, (b) East Yorkshire, (c) the 2 Humberside region and (d) nationally in the latest 0 to 10 scale Life Happy Anxious period for which figures are available. [91058] satisfaction3 Worthwhile4 yesterday5 yesterday6 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Men 7.3 7.5 7.3 3.3 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Women 7.5 7.8 7.5 3.6 asked the authority to reply. All 7.4 7.6 7.4 3.4 981W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 982W

1 Adults aged 16 and over. Perinatal Mortality 2 Respondents are asked to provide an answer from 0 (‘not at all’) to 10 (‘completely’) for each question. 3 Overall, how satisfied are you with your life nowadays? Mr David Davis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 4 Overall, to what extent do you feel the things you do in your life are worthwhile? Office what the perinatal mortality rate was for 5 Overall, how happy did you feel yesterday? children in (a) Haltemprice and Howden constituency, 6 Overall, how anxious did you feel yesterday? (b) East Yorkshire, (c) the Humberside region and Source: (d) nationally in the latest period for which figures are April, June, July and August 2011 Opinions Surveys, ONS available. [91057] Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office which UK (a) mindfulness and wellbeing Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the research centres and (b) universities he (i) visited and responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have (ii) corresponded with in developing the Wellbeing asked the authority to reply. Index. [90883] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking asked the authority to reply. what the perinatal mortality rate was for children in (a) Haltemprice Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: and Howden constituency, (b) East Yorkshire, (c) the Humberside region and (d) nationally in the latest period for which figures are As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I available. [91057]. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking which UK (a) mindfulness and wellbeing research centres and (b) The latest available figures for perinatal mortality are for the universities have been (i) visited and (ii) corresponded with in year 2010. The following table provides the perinatal mortality developing the Wellbeing Index. (90883) rates for East Riding of Yorkshire unitary authority, Yorkshire The ONS Measuring National Well-being Programme, led by and the Humber region and England and Wales in 2010. the National Statistician, aims to develop and publish an accepted Annual sub-national data on the number of deaths and trusted set of National Statistics to help people understand registered in England and Wales is available on the and monitor national well-being. National well-being is more Office for National Statistics website at: than the sum of individual happiness or individual well-being. To measure national well-being we are capturing the quality of our www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- lives, of which happiness is a part, but also the country’s economic releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-27478 performance and environmental and sustainability issues. Figures for perinatal mortality for East Riding of Yorkshire The programme is underpinned by a communication and unitary authority and Yorkshire and the Humber region in 2010 engagement workstream, providing links with Cabinet Office and can be found in table 1a of the linked publication. policy departments, international organisations, the public and Perinatal mortality rates for the Haltemprice and Howden other stakeholders. The programme started with a national debate, parliamentary constituency have not been given in line with the receiving 34,000 responses, including a number of experts such as current ONS policy on protecting confidentiality within birth and academics and research organisations. ONS also held 175 events death statistics, available at: around the UK, where members of the public joined in at live debates and round table discussions. Further details of the events www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/best-practice/disclosure- held, organisations who responded and technical submissions control-policy-for-birth-and-death-statistics/index.html ″ received are available in the supplementary paper Findings from Table 1. Perinatal mortality rates1 with 95% confidence limits2 for ″ the National Well-being Debate : East Riding of Yorkshire unitary authority, Yorkshire and the Humber http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/user-guidance/well- region and England and Wales3,2010 being/wellbeing-knowledge-bank/understanding-wellbeing/well- 95% confidence limits being-reports-and-articles.html Perinatal The programme is supported by a Technical Advisory Group mortality rate Lower limit Upper limit and a Well-being Advisory Forum, both of which have members from the academic and research communities, full membership East Riding 9.3 6.2 13.4 lists are available here: of Yorkshire http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/user-guidance/well- Yorkshire 8.5 7.8 9.2 being/index.html and the ONS are currently in the middle of a targeted three month Humber formal consultation, on a draft set of domains and measures. It England 7.4 7.2 7.6 began on 31 October 2011 and will close on 23 January 2012. The and Wales consultation is available on-line: 1 Perinatal deaths per 1,000 live births and stillbirths. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/consultations/open- 2 Confidence intervals are a measure of the statistical precision of an consultations/measuring-national-well-being/index.html estimate and show the range of uncertainty around the estimated ONS will continue to engage with organisations, policy makers, figure. Calculations based on small numbers of events are often academic/expert leads, think tanks, third-sector, business and subject to random fluctuations. As a general rule, if the confidence interval around one figure overlaps with the interval around another, interested others to get their views. This will ensure that UK we cannot say with certainty that there is more than a chance well-being measures are relevant and impartial and improve our difference between the two figures. understanding of the UK’s society. 3 Figures are based on boundaries as of 2011. Figures for England Members: Correspondence and Wales include deaths of non-residents, figures for East Riding of Yorkshire unitary authority, Yorkshire and the Humber region are Mr Baron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office for deaths of babies usually resident in those areas. when he plans to reply to the letters of 31 October and 5 December 2011 from the hon. Member for Basildon Personal Savings and Billericay regarding a constituent, Miss Helmi Okpara. [90935] Tracey Crouch: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Harper: I replied to the hon. Member’s letters on Office what recent estimate he has made of the average 19 January 2012. level of (a) household and (b) personal savings. [90421] 983W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 984W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the However, the Church does provide a space for long-term responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have employment and opportunities for skilled professionals asked the authority to reply. and their students to undertake apprenticeships, training, Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: or conservation work on and within its buildings, stone/ As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I carpentry yards and stained glass workshops choir and have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking organ schools. what recent estimates have been made of the average level of (a) household and (b) personal savings (90421). Church Commissioners: Anniversaries The Office for National Statistics (ONS) does not specifically publish the estimates you request. However, estimates from the Wealth and Assets Survey (WAS)can provide some related estimates. Mark Pritchard: To ask the hon. Member for WAS provides estimates of total financial wealth of private Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners households in Great Britain. Gross financial wealth includes whether the Church Commissioners plan to discuss formal and informal financial assets of adults, children’s assets, with the House of Bishops the preparation of events to and endowments for the purpose of mortgage repayments. Details mark the 350th anniversary of the Book of Common of financial liabilities is also collected and subtracted from gross Prayer in 2012. [9203] financial wealth to produce estimates of net financial wealth. At present only data relating to 2006/08 are available, equivalent Tony Baldry: The Prayer Book Society will be data for 2008/10 are due to be published in May 2012. coordinating many of the events during 2012 to celebrate Household financial wealth1:Summary statistics Great Britain 2006-08 the 350th anniversary of the 1662 Book of Common £ Prayer and Lambeth Palace Library will be holding Mean Median another of their summer exhibitions this year, the subject Those with financial wealth1 of which will be the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. Other events will be announced throughout the year Gross financial wealth 45,900 8,600 and local churches and Cathedrals are being encouraged Financial liabilities 7,200 2,700 to take part in the celebrations. Net financial wealth 40,800 5,700 Whole population Church of England Rural Affairs Committee Gross financial wealth 43,500 7,200 Net financial wealth 40,000 5,200 1 Excludes households without this type of asset or liability (zeros). Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for Source: Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, Wealth and Assets Survey Office for National Statistics when he last attended a meeting of the Church of These data are taken from Chapter 4 of the Wealth in Great England Rural Affairs Committee; what assessment he Britain, 2006/08 report, where more detailed figures are also has made of its work; and if he will make a statement. available. [90902] http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/was/wealth-in-great-britain/ main-results-from-the-wealth-and-assets-survey-2006-2008/ report--wealth-in-great-britain-.pdf Tony Baldry: I have not yet attended a meeting of the No data have currently been published on individual wealth Rural Affairs Group, but I am regularly briefed on its from this source. More recent data on total financial assets held work. by households and non-profit institutions serving households The Rural Affairs Group of the General Synod is a (NPISH) are available from the United Kingdom Economic sub-group of the Mission and Public Affairs Council of Accounts. In 2011 quarter 3, the latest period for which data are the Archbishops’ Council. It is chaired by the Bishop available, the total level of financial assets (excluding insurance technical reserves) held by households and NPISH was £1,994.7 billion. of Knaresborough and meets three times each year. The coverage of this data differs in a number of respects from The group aims to assist other departments of the that shown above from the Wealth and Assets Survey. In particular, Archbishops’ Council to understand and address the this figure includes asset holdings by bodies such as charities, needs of rural parishes; primarily the Ministry Division, universities, trades union and political and faith based institutions the Cathedral and Church Buildings Division and the which are classified to the NPISH sector, and these are not Education Division. The Rural Affairs Group also organises separately identified from the asset holdings of households. It is information and briefing meetings on rural issues at therefore not possible to provide an estimate of total financial General Synod. assets on a per household basis. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/naa1-rd/united-kingdom- In the last six months the group’s work has focused economic-accounts/q3-2011/index.html on: Bovine TB, the National Planning Policy Framework, the consultation on the Rural Communities Policy Unit within DEFRA, resourcing and training for the rural church, the future of rural primary schools, global food CHURCH COMMISSIONERS and farming issues, CAP reform and pastoral ministry in rural areas. Apprentices Churches: Repairs and Maintenance Robert Halfon: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, how many apprentices are employed by the Church Commissioners. Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for [90490] Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, what discussions there were at the last General Synod Tony Baldry: There are no apprentices currently employed of the Church of England on progress on repairs to by the Church Commissioners or the Church of England. Church of England churches. [11095] 985W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 986W

Tony Baldry: The Church of England estimates its The Church of England also has a network of Diocesan 16,000 parish church buildings, 12,500 of which are Rural officers, and a National Rural Officer who assist listed, face annual repair bills totalling £178.5 million. with development of the mission and worship of rural The Church further estimates that over £50 million of churches through the provision of advice, training and these repairs are not undertaken. resources. The Government’s financial support amounts to the Church of England’s share of the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme 71% of £12 million or £8.5 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT million and a similar share of the Heritage Lottery Fund’s £25 million annual fund for high level repairs to Travellers: Caravan Sites church buildings. Even though the Church of England’s 12,500 listed church buildings remain he most significant Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for and remarkable group of listed buildings in the country, Communities and Local Government when he expects the balance of the costs has to be found by the parishes to produce new guidance for local authorities on themselves. Gypsy and Traveller sites. [91065]

Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for Robert Neill: We are considering the responses to the Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, consultation on our draft planning policy for Traveller what discussions the Church Commissioners have had sites and intend to publish the new policy as soon as with Ministers on the continuation of the Listed Places possible. In the mean-time, decision makers are entitled of Worship Grant Scheme; and what progress has been to have regard to the fact that it is proposed to withdraw made in those discussions. [14075] the circulars and replace them with the Government’s draft new policy. Tony Baldry: There were no discussions at the last meeting of the General Synod in July 2011 about the progress on repairs to churches. The Church of England’s CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Cathedrals and Church Buildings Division estimates its 16,000 parish church buildings, 12,500 of which are Arts listed, face annual repair bills totalling £178.5 million. It further estimates that over £50 million of these repairs Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for are not undertaken. Financial support from the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Government amounts to the Church of England’s share he has made of the value of the creative industries to of the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme: 71% of the economy in terms of (a) gross domestic product £12 million, or £8.5 million, and a similar share of the contribution, (b) growth and (c) jobs. [90774] Heritage Lottery Fund’s £25 million annual fund for high level repairs to church buildings. The balance of Mr Vaizey: The latest ‘Creative Industries Economic the costs has to be found by the parishes themselves. Estimates’ bulletin was released in December 2011, in which the contribution to the economy of the creative industries is estimated covering gross value added (GVA), Churches: Rural Areas employment, exports in services and number of businesses. The creative industries as a whole were estimated to Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for contribute £36.3 billion, or 2.9%, to the UK’s GVA in Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, 2009. what steps the Church Commissioners plan to take to Relative to the UK’s total GVA,the creative industries assist rural parishes; and if he will make a statement. GVA has increased by 0.07% in 2009 (from 2.82% in [82610] 2008), but in absolute terms the GVA reduced by 1% from 2008 (£36.6 billion to £36.3 billion). Due to changes Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners’ parish mission in the data source’s methodology, growth cannot be and ministry support (£46.8 million in 2010) is targeted estimated prior to 2008. on areas of greatest need and opportunity rather than 1.50 million people are employed in either the Creative specifically at urban or rural areas. The majority of this Industries or in a creative role in another industry is in the form of grants to lower income dioceses who in (5.14% of UK employment). This is a small increase turn make the decisions about the deployment of funds on 2008 (1.44 million employed and 4.99% of UK locally. employment). There are two more ’deliberate’ funding streams, i.e. The full creative industries economic estimates statistical those which support mission development and church release is available on the Department for Culture, development in new housing and other development Media and Sport’s website: areas. Both of these to a greater or lesser extent will http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/8682.aspx benefit rural and urban settings but, again, that is not a specific funding criterion. The Church Commissioners Diamond Jubilee 2012: Voluntary Organisations other, untargeted funds, play a part in helping the Church maintain a presence in every part of the nation Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for regardless of relative local resources and parishes in less Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects to populous, rural areas will sometimes rely more heavily make an announcement on the award for outstanding on this than others. It should be remembered that, voluntary organisations during the diamond jubilee overall, the CofE is largely self-funding. year. [90434] 987W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 988W

Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Cabinet Office. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions I expect to make an announcement by the end of his Department has had with Ofcom on the future use February 2012. of 700MHz band; and if he will make a statement. [88911] Digital Broadcasting Mr Vaizey: The matter raised is an operational one Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for for the independent regulator, the Office of Communications Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is (Ofcom). Accordingly, my officials spoke to Ofcom, taking to encourage licensed use of programme making who advised: and special events equipment after digital switchover; Ofcom has had early discussions with the Department for and if he will make a statement. [88908] Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) on the potential implications of the future European harmonisation of the 700 MHz band for Mr Vaizey: The matter raised is an operational one mobile broadband use. Ofcom intends to issue a consultation on for the independent regulator, the Office of Communications this matter during the first half of 2012. (Ofcom). Accordingly, my officials spoke to Ofcom, who advised: Radio Frequencies: Audio Equipment “The Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 prohibits the installation or use of wireless telegraphy equipment unless an appropriate Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for licence has been obtained from Ofcom. For programme making Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent and special events (PMSE) JFMG, who issue Wireless Telegraphy assessment he has made of the effect on (a) the Act licences on Ofcom’s behalf, are actively issuing licences in availability of, (b) the market for and (c) the price of Channel 38. The funding scheme for channel 69 has provided a substantial contribution to the cost of migration to channel 38 to radio microphones and similar technologies following licensed users only. JFMG continue to make information available the sale of channels 31 to 37 and 61 to 69; and if he will on our behalf on the licence options for PMSE users.” make a statement. [88909]

EU Law Mr Vaizey: The matter raised is an operational one for the independent regulator, the Office of Communications Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for (Ofcom). Accordingly, my officials spoke to Ofcom, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport which EU who advised: regulations his Department has not implemented; on “While Ofcom makes spectrum available, the supply of physical what date the regulations became EU law; and if he equipment (as in other sectors) is a matter for the commercial will make a statement. [90707] sector. No assessment has been made of the availability, market for, or price of wireless microphones. There are a number of John Penrose: The Commission Decision of 10 October competing suppliers of programme making and special event’s 2011 (Decision 2011/667/EU) on modalities for co-ordinated (PMSE) equipment active in the UK, who have been kept informed application of the rules on enforcement, with regard to in a timely manner throughout the digital switchover process so mobile satellite services (MSS), is currently being considered that decisions on market demand and equipment can be made.” by the Department. It may require the amendment of Telephones the Authorisation of Frequency Use for the Provision of MSS (European Union) Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/672), which implement the previous Decisions in relation to Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for MSS. No decisions as to whether UK legislation must Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his be amended have yet been taken, and therefore I am Department is taking to reduce the incidence of unable to provide an estimate of the cost to the public vulnerable people unnecessarily making lengthy calls to purse and the private sector. The Decision came into premium rate telephone numbers. [91032] force on 10 October 2011. I am not aware of any other EU legislation currently Mr Vaizey: Ofcom has responsibility and accountability requiring transposition for which my Department is for the regulation of premium rate services (PRS), responsible. under the terms of the Communications Act 2003, and has designated PhonepayPlus to deliver the day-to-day Ofcom regulation of PRS. Consumers, including those who are vulnerable, are protected through their code of practice, Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for which includes rules on the presentation of the cost of Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions calling, minimum font size and position of pricing he has had with Ofcom on the use of white space information. The maximum penalty for a single breach devices; and if he will make a statement. [88910] of their code is £250,000. All PRS providers are required to comply and PhonepayPlus has regularly used its Mr Vaizey: The matter raised is an operational one powers to disconnect service providers, including barring for the independent regulator, the Office of Communications them. Where services might be causing substantial harm (Ofcom). Accordingly, my officials spoke to Ofcom, to consumers, including groups such as children, who advised: PhonepayPlus has an emergency procedure, which enables “Ofcom is in the process of developing regulations to enable them to urgently investigate and shut down services. It white space devices to operate in the Ultra-High Frequency also has a website: (UHF) TV band without causing harmful interference to existing http://www.phonebrain.org.uk services. Existing services include digital terrestrial television and wireless microphones used in the programme making and special aimed specifically at young people to educate them events. Ofcom is working with stakeholders to finalise the necessary about the costs involved and where to go if they have a regulations which we aim to be in place by the end of 2012.” problem. 989W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 990W

Third Sector Peter Luff: There is no single policy to counter corrosion of Defence equipment infrastructure assets. Corrosion prevention is included, where applicable, as a manufacturing Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for requirement in Defence contracts. Extensive trials and Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much testing for corrosion protection will also be undertaken funding his Department provided to (a) The Art Room, where appropriate, prior to an equipment entering service. (b) the National Portrait Gallery, (c) Mountain Rescue England, (d) the English Schools Swimming Association, For in-service equipment and infrastructure, the (e) the Scout Association and (f) Missing Links UK in requirements for corrosion protection and ongoing (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a maintenance are detailed in a wide range of publications statement. [90746] including Technical Bulletins, Joint Service Publications, Defence Standards and NATO Standardisation Mr Vaizey: This Department has provided grant Agreements. These may take into account the environment in aid funding of £7.577 million in 2010-11 and in which a particular equipment type may be deployed £7.398 million in 2011-12 to the National Portrait Gallery. and cover all aspects of corrosion prevention including It has not directly funded any other organisations on the use of protective coatings, inspection and maintenance this list. regimes, methods of packaging and storage to be used. Corrosion prevention measures which may be deployed Tourism: Northumberland range from cathodic (electrolytic) prevention and the application of specialised anti-corrosive paints, to simply Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for covering equipment when not in use, to protect against Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what (a) support the corrosive forces of nature. he is providing to encourage and (b) assessment he has made of opportunities for rural tourism in Northumberland. [90581] EDUCATION John Penrose: The recently announced Regional Growth Academies Fund Project, ‘Growing Tourism Locally,’which is managed and coordinated by the National Tourist Board, VisitEngland, will aim to stimulate increased visitor Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for spend across England, particularly in areas that are Education for what reasons officials from his facing challenging economic times, but which have tourism Department are visiting schools in connection with growth potential. Northumberland is one of the areas academy status; and under which criteria such visits are which will benefit from this project. being made. [89445] Last November, the Government also announced Mr Gibb: Department for Education officials visit that they would invest £25 million in promoting and schools in connection with Academy status for a wide developing rural tourism. VisitEngland is working with range of reasons; this includes to support those schools the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs considering, or in the process of becoming Academies and Natural England on rural economic growth, in and to support and broker Academy solutions for those particular, opportunities made available through the schools that have a history of results below the National Rural Development Programme England for areas such Floor Standards, or are in an Ofsted category. as Northumberland. In addition, the Government recently announced a Contact Orders: Grandparents major initiative to support both international and domestic tourism promotion. Including money from the GREAT Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for campaign and private sector support, VisitBritain will Education what plans his Department has to change invest around £127 million in a new international marketing the process by which grandparents can gain access to programme. Over the next four years, this is expected to any of their grandchildren to whom they have no deliver 4.6 million extra visitors from overseas, £2.27 billion access. [89366] in extra visitor spend and over 50,000 job opportunities. VisitEngland’s domestic campaign is supported by a Tim Loughton [holding answer 16 January 2012]: £4 million investment from the Olympic budget and is The Government will shortly publish their response to expected to deliver around 12,500 new job opportunities the Family Justice Review which considered a range of and £500 million in extra visitor spend over three years. important issues including how families make contact This promotion will include an invitation to the industry arrangements after separation. The Government response to join up in a 20.12% special offer incentive for consumers, will set out how we plan to take forward policy proposals which will be launched later this year. for reforming the family justice system so that it better serves children and families involved with proceedings.

DEFENCE EU Law

Defence Equipment: Repairs and Maintenance Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education which EU (a) Directives, (b) Regulations Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and (c) other legislation affecting his Department what steps he is taking to prevent corrosion in its require transposition into UK law; and what estimate (a) weapons, (b) fleets of ships and vehicles and he has made of the cost to (i) the public purse and (c) infrastructure. [89851] (ii) the private sector of such measures. [89685] 991W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 992W

Tim Loughton: The Department for Education is not authorities and schools determine how much is allocated responsible for implementing any EU legislation which for free school meals based on the circumstances in currently requires transposition into UK law. The their area, and how to use any funding that is unclaimed Department has not, therefore, made an estimate of the by pupils. cost of this legislation for the public purse or private Free Schools sector.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Leigh: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether his Department holds information Education what progress he has made on enabling on the EU regulations in its policy areas of proposed special free schools to be set up where clear responsibility which have not been implemented in parental demand exists but there is reluctance from the (a) France and (b) Germany; on which dates those local authority. [90342] regulations became EU law; and if he will make a statement. [90691] Mr Gibb: The first special free schools are being set up by passionate and talented groups who want to Mr Gibb: The Department holds no such information improve state education provision and choice for families in respect of implementation of EU regulations in with children with special educational needs (SEN) and France or Germany. disabilities. We hope that many more such groups will come forward with applications for special free schools Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for proposing to open in September 2013. Applications can Education which EU regulations his Department has be submitted between 13 and 24 February 2012. not implemented; on what date the regulations became GCE A-Level: Mathematics EU law; and if he will make a statement. [90705]

Mr Gibb: There are no EU regulations in force for Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for which the Department for Education has lead responsibility Education how many students sat exams in A-level and which have not been implemented. (a) mathematics and (b) further mathematics in each local authority area in each of the last five years. Free School Meals [85457]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the Education what happens to the funding allocated for following table. free school meals within a local authority area that is The information requested for 2011 is available in the unclaimed by pupils. [91155] Statistical First Release “GCE/Applied GCE A/AS and Equivalent Examination Results in England, 2010/11 Mr Gibb: Local authorities do not receive specified (Provisional)” Table 12a. This publication is available funding for the costs of free school meals from the online at the following address: Government. The cost of free school meals is met by http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001035/ local authorities from their overall schools budget. Local index.shtml

Number of students aged 16-181 entered for exams in A-level mathematics and further mathematics, by local authority and region; Year: 2007-112; Coverage: England Mathematics Further Mathematics 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

North East 1,464 1,651 1,935 2,128 2,269 164 212 216 285 272 Darlington 105 136 149 175 183 15 17 18 27 13 Durham 190 197 239 310 295 11 29 25 46 37 Gateshead 128 120 140 165 174 9 13 7 11 21 Hartlepool 45 59 62 77 78 6 16 11 12 25 Middlesbrough 74 70 98 78 89 7 8 16 17 11 Newcastle upon Tyne 140 156 211 210 235 11 9 15 21 18 North Tyneside 107 108 127 151 166 2 9 9 20 13 Northumberland 240 278 275 300 333 43 34 41 28 33 Redcar and Cleveland 159 191 196 186 217 27 30 27 28 39 South Tyneside 65 36 73 72 92 5 3 10 10 13 Stockton-on-Tees 138 194 236 233 251 13 27 25 37 33 Sunderland 73 106 129 171 156 15 17 12 28 16

North West 5,122 5,599 6,283 7,040 7,663 582 692 804 926 1,007 Blackburn with Darwen 116 107 134 137 131 13 9 20 9 15 Blackpool 104 121 139 159 168 6 10 10 11 10 Bolton 178 158 200 215 232 19 12 23 16 20 Bury 170 185 222 253 255 24 25 29 49 51 Cheshire3 702727———9694——— Cheshire East — — 393 441 473 — — 63 71 72 993W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 994W

Number of students aged 16-181 entered for exams in A-level mathematics and further mathematics, by local authority and region; Year: 2007-112; Coverage: England Mathematics Further Mathematics 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Cheshire West and Chester — — 431 433 451 — — 55 52 65 Cumbria 445 488 480 559 633 43 66 75 67 98 Halton 39 33 26 33 32 450** Knowsley 20 40 31 23 20 *00*0 Lancashire 805 827 1,014 1,169 1,363 88 83 111 146 157 Liverpool 275 343 353 423 435 13 34 37 51 51 Manchester 262 331 378 421 475 26 47 33 63 46 Oldham 178 190 229 266 246 22 27 31 26 29 Rochdale 53 60 52 57 40 *5*** Salford 1029512910313658*912 Sefton 233 267 267 318 366 29 33 30 30 46 St. Helens 203 229 246 236 332 38 44 34 40 59 Stockport 222 231 214 269 260 18 34 38 39 35 Tameside 107 132 130 155 149 16 16 12 23 20 Trafford 257 297 317 351 351 46 31 44 44 56 Warrington 123 128 179 181 204 18 16 26 31 27 Wigan 283 334 413 460 464 35 58 75 102 96 Wirral 245 276 306 378 447 18 35 46 40 35

Yorkshire and the Humber 3,581 3,704 4,099 4,477 4,854 488 456 507 595 651 Barnsley 36 59 30 57 53 3357* Bradford 256 270 300 325 369 27 24 26 33 35 Calderdale 120 130 158 145 199 11 12 23 21 24 Doncaster 222 211 237 258 296 26 28 29 34 33 East Riding of Yorkshire 248 253 244 268 311 28 12 27 26 33 Kingston upon Hull, City 127 127 141 158 173 10 17 16 24 38 of Kirklees 347 347 396 444 531 34 37 39 52 48 Leeds 509 488 528 643 642 80 58 62 90 81 North East Lincolnshire 108 98 119 87 111 14 14 13 13 * North Lincolnshire 173 196 193 206 207 42 46 39 50 58 North Yorkshire 606 614 695 725 766 85 97 91 93 118 Rotherham 199 217 241 305 317 29 18 20 31 48 Sheffield 320 368 393 409 440 39 34 46 58 44 Wakefield 154 146 247 258 248 19 14 27 26 36 York 156 180 177 189 191 41 42 44 37 40

East Midlands 3,799 4,157 4,583 4,803 5,373 416 484 527 710 669 Derby 168 188 246 270 250 13 25 22 41 36 Derbyshire 549 603 629 593 682 60 77 77 91 92 Leicester 349 402 417 466 603 30 31 20 33 40 Leicestershire4 861 931 978 1,019 1,118 83 91 110 138 129 Lincolnshire 592 652 684 799 866 87 98 102 139 133 Northamptonshire 502 519 624 629 673 58 62 65 91 80 Nottingham 257 250 325 334 406 33 25 41 60 70 Nottinghamshire 521 612 680 693 761 52 75 90 117 87 Rutland5 ————14————*

West Midlands 4,148 4,538 5,077 5,446 5,998 383 505 628 614 668 Birmingham 889 1,043 1,097 1,194 1,376 81 95 108 109 111 Coventry 198 217 269 269 307 18 35 44 28 45 Dudley 304 368 337 355 403 29 22 41 28 35 Herefordshire 165 166 241 195 232 8 19 23 27 19 Sandwell 57 56 71 79 120 4*3** Shropshire 242 286 297 318 311 26 29 41 37 30 Solihull 302 319 364 393 451 22 39 54 58 53 Staffordshire 497 516 624 608 701 32 53 86 75 97 Stoke-on-Trent 127 117 132 150 137 14 * 14 19 * Telford and Wrekin 157 154 173 190 222 30 26 29 29 34 Walsall 203 208 257 313 297 13 30 40 36 32 995W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 996W

Number of students aged 16-181 entered for exams in A-level mathematics and further mathematics, by local authority and region; Year: 2007-112; Coverage: England Mathematics Further Mathematics 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Warwickshire 507 534 616 704 749 62 68 73 85 117 Wolverhampton 178 193 152 217 211 19 28 18 * 24 Worcestershire 322 361 447 461 481 25 46 54 69 58

East of England 4,507 5,001 5,453 6,026 6,537 628 771 802 933 1,013 Bedford — — 174 193 219 — — 18 19 34 Bedfordshire6 305311———2330——— Bedfordshire, Central — — 198 210 235 — — 21 19 27 Cambridgeshire 582 684 640 697 768 88 130 104 144 154 Essex 994 1,053 1,261 1,365 1,487 129 157 165 176 186 Hertfordshire 1,218 1,403 1,555 1,647 1,788 192 209 252 258 292 Luton 120 146 174 212 225 13 22 16 28 30 Norfolk 490 532 482 686 671 75 92 94 123 120 Peterborough 106 122 172 150 181 11 19 29 12 13 Southend-on-Sea 173 186 193 237 291 25 25 24 34 47 Suffolk 461 475 515 513 540 62 73 71 99 91 Thurrock 58 89 89 116 132 10 14 8 21 19

London 6,872 7,726 9,170 9,896 11,060 552 725 892 1,138 1,287

Inner London 1,498 1,708 1,964 2,173 2,561 113 158 163 236 283

City of London Camden 129 153 206 182 207 12 25 19 18 33 Hackney 38585355151*4*38 Hammersmith and 167 206 207 220 247 15 13 16 15 22 Fulham Haringey 67 92 111 141 135 * 8 11 15 17 Islington 56 70 99 97 134 3 8 10 12 15 Kensington and Chelsea 99 111 112 131 176 7 11 13 11 15 Lambeth 576369768835*58 Lewisham 201 184 198 239 274 20 17 19 41 42 Newham 165 179 183 217 241 6 15 13 11 20 Southwark 49 48 51 73 72 73*89 Tower Hamlets 92 104 137 148 196 8 9 13 16 24 Wandsworth 222 266 322 373 388 19 21 27 57 40 Westminster 156 174 216 221 252 9 19 16 24 30

Outer London 5,374 6,018 7,206 7,723 8,499 439 567 729 902 1,004 Barking and Dagenham 83 96 117 128 163 * * 13 14 22 Barnet 694 765 921 916 957 37 60 90 98 116 Bexley 205 224 278 263 333 9 27 30 32 28 Brent 321 410 433 471 537 30 42 50 51 62 Bromley 410 432 560 580 592 56 77 101 115 132 Croydon 190 215 257 274 313 12 12 14 24 18 Ealing 196 225 265 331 374 15 8 22 40 55 Enfield 350 378 419 439 528 27 32 28 41 45 Greenwich 99 102 138 153 179 5 * 5 22 21 Harrow 289 371 455 521 625 30 44 48 62 69 Havering 281 286 377 326 401 25 28 35 40 32 Hillingdon 258 292 327 349 387 13 20 16 24 29 Hounslow 224 273 335 351 395 13 11 26 33 39 Kingston upon Thames 324 352 439 458 456 37 49 59 75 58 Merton 61 69 96 69 99 **339 Redbridge 539 597 716 821 865 15 24 44 72 105 Richmond upon Thames 176 194 213 267 196 16 18 24 26 15 Sutton 438 463 581 626 673 80 79 86 94 116 Waltham Forest 236 274 279 380 426 15 27 35 36 33 997W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 998W

Number of students aged 16-181 entered for exams in A-level mathematics and further mathematics, by local authority and region; Year: 2007-112; Coverage: England Mathematics Further Mathematics 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

South East 7,882 8,371 9,439 10,485 11,492 1,073 1,261 1,384 1,597 1,713 Bracknell Forest 73 89 90 104 120 9 8 16 24 19 Brighton and Hove 238 207 282 261 322 28 19 32 47 46 Buckinghamshire 849 906 1,024 1,083 1,173 140 171 201 223 204 East Sussex 304 314 331 389 399 39 41 40 48 45 Hampshire 1,562 1,565 1,787 2,097 2,296 209 250 280 308 348 Isle of Wight 46 61 61 69 72 * 6 11 7 10 Kent 1,156 1,301 1,402 1,480 1,576 151 189 161 196 211 Medway 222 207 234 257 291 30 28 25 28 46 Milton Keynes 150 174 191 218 235 22 25 19 23 34 Oxfordshire 627 638 687 752 901 124 128 104 124 139 Portsmouth 16 30 18 36 24 * 7 * 11 3 Reading 170 192 224 254 249 28 42 49 52 50 Slough 206 257 297 327 351 16 17 21 38 42 Southampton 79 95 90 128 191 7 14 * 8 23 Surrey 1,070 1,115 1,311 1,459 1,670 129 143 198 219 245 West Berkshire 183 226 264 260 243 21 37 37 43 48 West Sussex 621 680 753 886 906 76 96 122 145 149 Windsor and Maidenhead 150 129 165 190 200 11 18 25 24 27 Wokingham 160 185 228 235 273 27 22 32 29 24

South West 4,084 4,337 4,661 5,206 5,452 525 596 675 761 763 Bath and North East 138 157 168 220 204 15 18 28 27 40 Somerset Bournemouth 110 94 103 125 131 4 10 11 15 13 Bristol, City of 193 200 271 280 331 21 33 42 43 35 Cornwall 360 414 374 477 454 50 62 67 72 50 Devon 449 466 518 557 592 61 68 64 68 81 Dorset 342 353 427 464 446 56 64 67 83 76 Gloucestershire 615 730 652 781 862 75 91 100 109 123 North Somerset 154 141 225 237 236 19 20 22 40 42 Plymouth 168 188 193 234 237 23 17 20 45 36 Poole 144 198 204 237 227 25 28 44 44 47 Somerset 423 483 485 534 543 67 75 66 83 74 South Gloucestershire 203 188 209 233 271 24 24 35 30 32 Swindon 229 217 206 216 219 21 20 33 21 24 Torbay 143 144 163 153 148 16 20 18 11 14 Wiltshire 413 364 463 458 551 48 46 58 70 76

Total (Maintained7 Sector) 41,459 45,084 50,700 55,507 60,698 4,811 5,702 6,435 7,559 8,043 * = Indicates figures have been suppressed if less than 3, secondary suppression has also been applied where a single suppression would cause an aggregated total to be disclosive. ‘—‘ = Indicates no data. 1 Age at the start of the academic year, eg for 2010/11 age at 31 August 2010. 2 2011 figures are provisional, all other years are final. 3 Cheshire West and Chester and Cheshire East replaced Cheshire local authority in April 2009. 4 Includes results from Welbeck, the Defense Sixth Form College funded via another Government Department. 5 No maintained schools prior to 2011 existed for this local authority. 6 Bedford and Central Bedfordshire replaced Bedfordshire local authority in April 2009. 7 Maintained Sector includes LA maintained schools, academies, CTCs and FE sector colleges.

Health Education: Driving under Influence Through National Curriculum science, pupils are currently taught the effects on the body of substance misuse Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for including alcohol. We are reviewing both the National Education what steps his Department is taking to Curriculum and PSHE and will publish proposals for tackle drink-driving through education in schools and public consultation later this year. colleges. [90531] Special Educational Needs: Training Mr Gibb: The current, non-statutory programme of study for personal, social, health and economic education Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for (PSHE) includes teaching pupils about risks and the Education if he will implement the proposal by the consequences of their actions on themselves and others. British Dyslexia Association that teacher training 999W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1000W courses should include mandatory training on recognising Gregory Barker: Successful trials of insulation systems dyslexia, dyspraxia and other similar learning difficulties for park homes in 2011 have enabled these measures to in children. [90735] be included in carbon emissions reduction target (CERT) for the final year of the scheme. We are now looking at Mr Gibb: All teachers should have a clear understanding how we could ensure support continues to be available of the needs of pupils with special educational needs, for park home residents through the new energy company including dyslexia and dyspraxia. In order to be awarded obligation, which will form a key element of the Green qualified teacher status from September, all trainee Deal programme. Park home residents who receive teachers must demonstrate that they can adapt their electricity direct from a licensed electricity supplier will teaching to respond to the strengths and needs of all also be able to take advantage of Green Deal finance. pupils, as set out in the new Teachers’ Standards. Specifically, teachers will have to have a clear understanding of the Renewable Energy: Manpower needs of pupils with special educational needs or disabilities. It is for training providers to decide what trainees Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for should be taught to enable them to achieve the Teachers’ Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Standards. The Department does not mandate content of the number of jobs supported by renewable of initial teacher training courses. electricity generation in (a) the UK, (b) England, (c) Scotland and (d) Wales in the latest period for which figures are available. [89538] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Charles Hendry: Our analysis for the Renewable Energy Carbon Emissions: EU Law Roadmap (published in July 2011) shows that the renewable energy sector already employs more than a quarter of a Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy million people. and Climate Change what assessment his Department made of the likely cost of complying with an EU target From April 2011 to November 2011, my Department of reducing carbon emissions by 30 per cent. in each of identified a total of £2.46 billion announced and planned the documents disclosed to the Information investments in the renewable energy sector, with the Commissioner and listed in paragraph 3 of the decision potential support of over 11,600 temporary and permanent of the First-Tier Tribunal (General Regulatory jobs. Chamber, Information Rights) in Case EA/2011/0052, A map showing the location of these investments can dated 8 November 2011. [91069] be downloaded from our website at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/meeting-energy- Gregory Barker: On 8 November 2011 the First-Tier demand/renewable-energy/3994-renewables-investment-and- Tribunal (Information Rights) upheld the Information jobs-announced-1-april-t.pdf Commissioner’s decision that the Department acted While this does not show investments or jobs specifically correctly in not disclosing the information listed in in renewable electricity, it does provide a breakdown by paragraph 3 of the tribunal’s decision. English region and the devolved Administrations. With regard to when this information will be available, This is not a definitive list of the renewables market I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to him on activity for this period and the total level of activity is 16 January 2012, Official Report, column 615W. likely to be significantly higher but it indicates the Green Deal Scheme continuing realisation of growth and investment opportunities in the UK renewables sector. Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will put in place Solar Power measures to ensure that Green Deal loans cannot be sold on the doorstep; and if he will make a statement. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for [90809] Energy and Climate Change with reference to paragraph 73 of the impact assessment on the Gregory Barker: We agree that illegal door step selling consultation on feed-in tariffs for solar PV, whether of the Green Deal should be prevented. Existing legislation the 1,000 to 10,000 gross full-time equivalent jobs sets out what is and is not acceptable, to protect consumers. estimated to be created in the solar sector in the three We will ensure the code of practice for all Green Deal years to 2014-15, will be in addition to jobs currently providers, assessors and installers recognises the existing supported by the PV industry. [91152] legislation and allows for any participant found to be in breach to be prevented from operating under the Green Gregory Barker: In the 2012-13 to 2014-15 period we Deal. estimate the total number of gross full-time equivalent Green Deal Scheme: Mobile Homes (FTE) jobs to be 1,000 to 10,000, based on new installations during that period. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for This is a separate estimate from the 8,000 to 14,000 Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to gross FTE jobs that we estimate were supported by ensure that park home owners benefit from Green Deal solar PV installations to the end of October 2011. measures, including owners who have their energy Furthermore, it should be noted that current tariffs supplied through a third party and are not eligible for are providing returns well in excess of the 5% that was the warm home discount. [90586] intended when the FITs scheme was launched. Any jobs 1001W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1002W that are affected are dependent on rates of support DECC commissions regular independent assessments above those the scheme was intended to provide, and of electricity generation costs. The latest reports can be should not therefore be considered sustainable. accessed via the following link: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/ec_social_res/ Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for analytic_projs/gen_costs/gen_costs.aspx Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 12 December 2011, Official Report, column 576W, on Warm Front Scheme solar power: feed-in tariffs, what estimate he has made of potential changes in uptake in each year from Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 to 2014-15; what assessment he has made of Energy and Climate Change what the budget for the the causes of any such changes; and if he will place in Warm Front Scheme is in 2011-12; and how much of the Library full details of the calculation referred to in the funding so allocated has been spent to date. [91113] the answer. [91153] Gregory Barker: The Department has allocated the Warm Front scheme a total budget of £143 million1 for Gregory Barker: Estimates of future solar PV growth 2011-12. Of the £143 million, £86 million has been are extremely uncertain. DECC is currently reviewing spent with a further £32 million of committed expenditure its estimates in the light of responses to the current to date2. consultation on PV tariffs as well as other recent changes 1 The total budget of £143 million consists of £110 million in the market, and will provide updated assessments for allocated to Warm Front and associated activities secured through the final impact assessment published alongside the the spending review 2010. Of this, £108 million was directly post-consultation policy response. allocated to Warm Front In addition DECC allocated £25 million to support the completion of outstanding work from 2010-11 Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for with a further £10 million allocated to Warm Front in 2011-12 Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of from the Department of Health. 12 December 2011, Official Report, column 576W, on 2 As of the week ending 7 January 2012. solar power: feed-in tariffs, what estimate he has made of the number of full-time equivalent jobs in the solar sector that would have been created had the recent ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS changes to tariffs not been introduced. [91154] Veterinary Services Gregory Barker: It is difficult to estimate, and forecast accurately the numbers of jobs associated with any Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for single technology or sector, such as solar PV. However, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is there are a range of methodologies that can, and are, taking to ensure that the closure of regional veterinary being used to provide an indication; these inevitably laboratories does not adversely affect the levels of lead to a range of estimates being calculated. disease among farm livestock. [87293] We did not carry out an assessment of the number of Mr Paice: The majority of laboratory samples are jobs that would have been created had the recent changes currently sent by specialist couriers, so for most customers, not have been introduced. However, we estimate that the only change will be in the destination to which the 1,000 to 10,000 gross additional full time equivalent samples are sent. Veterinary Investigation Officers will jobs could be created in this sector in the three years to continue to work with private vets to reach diagnosis. 2014-15 under our proposals. The ability to respond to disease outbreaks with Furthermore, it should be noted that current tariffs surge in capacity is maintained because confirmatory are providing returns well in excess of the 5% that was tests for notifiable diseases are carried out by Weybridge, intended when the FITs scheme was launched. Any jobs which is not part of the regional laboratory network. that are affected are dependent on rates of support Following the rationalisation of the laboratory services above those the scheme was intended to provide, and department, the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories should not therefore be considered sustainable. Agency (AHVLA) will still retain capacity at the site of the post-mortem examination to carry out tests, e.g. for Uranium: Prices anthrax and TB, that are considered to be essential by our veterinary experts and these will be reported urgently. Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy At present, no AHVLA laboratory operates on weekends and Climate Change what assessment he has made of or bank holidays. This will change as a result of the the comparative advantages of (a) nuclear energy and rationalisation, to allow weekend working to improve (b) other forms of energy following the recent fall in turnaround times for samples received over this period. the price of uranium. [89852]

Charles Hendry: The Government have not undertaken FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE an assessment on the relative competitiveness of electricity generation technologies following reductions in the price Bosnia and Herzegovina of uranium. While a reduction in uranium prices in isolation improves the relative competitiveness of nuclear Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for power, it has a limited effect on overall nuclear generation Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment costs. This is because uranium represents a much smaller he has made of the role of the Office of High proportion of nuclear generation costs than the fuel Representative in Bosnia-Herzegovina; and if he will costs for other electricity generation technologies. make a statement. [90963] 1003W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1004W

Mr Lidington: We continue to give our full support to first step towards a formal, long term ceasefire and the Office of the High Representative and High political process. Further talks are set to take place in Representative Valentin Inzko. The High Representative the coming weeks. plays a key role as the final authority for interpreting The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth the General Framework Agreement for Peace (the ‘Dayton’ Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond agreement) in respect of civilian implementation of the (Yorks) (Mr Hague), welcomed this important and peace settlement in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The High historic step in his written ministerial statement of the Representative also acts as an important civilian safeguard 16 January 2012, Official Report, column 28-29W. against political instability. The Peace Implementation Council has determined that Bosnia and Herzegovina Embassies: Flags must fulfil certain conditions (comprising five objectives and two conditions) before the Office of the High Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Representative can close. These conditions have not yet and Commonwealth Affairs which UK embassies and been met. consulates (a) fly the EU flag and (b) have on their premises an EU flag for public display; and what cost Bosnia and Herzegovina: Politics and Government has been incurred in purchasing such flags. [90785] Mr Bellingham: The UK Representation to the EU, Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Brussels, display the EU flag at all times. On Europe Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he day, UK missions in the EU and EU-applicant countries has received on the compliance of Republika Srpska display the EU flag. Other UK missions may also with (a) the Constitutional Court of Bosnia- display the EU flag on Europe day where this is normal Herzegovina and (b) other institutions established local practice. Many other UK diplomatic missions under the Dayton agreement; and if he will make a hold an EU flag either to fly or for public display statement. [91002] purposes on appropriate occasions. To obtain the exact figure and the costs incurred in purchasing these flags Mr Lidington: The UK Government are concerned could be done only at disproportionate costs as details that the Republika Srpska continues to question and are not held centrally. challenge Bosnia and Herzegovina’s state level institutions, competencies and laws, as well as the authority of the Kazakhstan: Elections High Representative under the General Framework Agreement for Peace (the ‘Dayton’ agreement). Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for We strongly support, and maintain close contact Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he with, the Office of the High Representative in monitoring has received on the recent elections in Kazakhstan. such matters, and we defend state-level judicial institutions [90614] as legally constituted and necessary for upholding the rule of law. Mr Lidington: Kazakhstan held parliamentary and We were particularly concerned at legal challenges to local council elections on 15 January, including in the Bosnia and Herzegovina State Court in April 2011. Zhanaozen which was the scene of violent clashes last We have welcomed the subsequent launch of a Structured month. Initial results show President Nazarbayev’s Nur Dialogue on Justice between Bosnia and Herzegovina Otan party winning 81% of the seats. They are joined and the EU. The UK believes that the best prospect for by AK Zhol and the Communists People’s party (CPPK), a stable, prosperous and sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina who both passed the 7% threshold to secure seats. is as a member of the EU and NATO. As the Secretary The OSCE’s Office for Democratic Institutions and of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my Human Rights’ (ODIHR) initial evaluation of the elections right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) was critical stating that the ″elections still did not meet (Mr Hague), underlined in his statement of 13 January fundamental principles of democratic elections″ and 2012, following agreement on the formation of a new that there were ″serious and systematic shortcomings″. Bosnia and Herzegovina Council of Ministers, we call The Foreign and Commonwealth Office welcomes on all parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina to work the fact that the elections took place peacefully and the together and display the determination, compromise move towards multi-party representation in parliament. and leadership required for Bosnia and Herzegovina to However, we share many of the concerns raised by progress on this path. ODIHR and have encouraged an early response from the Kazakh authorities to the ODIHR’ s report and Burma: Politics and Government recommendations, as a basis for ensuring fully free and fair elections in the future. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Nigeria: Fuels Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received on the progress of negotiations Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign between the Burmese government and the Karen and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has National Union; and if he will make a statement. had with the government of Nigeria on the effects of [90592] the removal of the fuel subsidy in that country. [90553]

Mr Lidington: The Karen National Union signed an Mr Bellingham: The removal of the fuel subsidy in initial agreement with a state level peace delegation Nigeria is an internal matter and the effects of removing from the Burmese Government on 13 January. It is the or reducing the fuel subsidy are for the Nigerian 1005W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1006W

Government to manage. However, the British Government South Sudan: Politics and Government have encouraged the Nigerian Government to pursue sound and effective economic reform plans accompanied Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for by fiscal transparency. Removing the fuel subsidy is a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent valid economic objective which would allow the Nigerian assessment he has made of the security situation in Government to spend more on infrastructure and South Sudan; and if he will make a statement. [90343] development projects to the benefit of the Nigerian public. We welcome the recent announcement by President Mr Bellingham: We are greatly concerned about the Jonathan that the Nigerian Government is committed security situation in parts of South Sudan, and particularly to tackling corruption in the petroleum industry as well about the violence between the Lou Nuer and Murle as other sectors of the economy. tribes in Jonglei state. A number of lives were saved in Jonglei by the political and military actions of the Government of South Sudan (GoSS) and the UN, but Nigeria: Oil it is important that lessons are learned and that protection of civilians is accorded the highest priority by the Government of South Sudan, with whom the primary Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility lies, and the UN. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received on the recent nationwide protests in Sudan Nigeria regarding oil prices. [91026] Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bellingham: Through the British high commission Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is in Abuja, we have closely monitored the impact of on trade with the Republic of Sudan. [90887] President Jonathan’s decision to remove fuel subsidies, which led to protests and a national strike from 9 Mr Bellingham: I refer the hon. Member to my answer January until action was suspended on 16 January. of 12 December 2011, Official Report, column 608W. Regrettably, some outbreaks of violence led to loss of life, but the majority of protests were carried out in a peaceful manner. Negotiations between the Government HEALTH and unions resulted in suspension of the Government decision and the strike, and averted a shut down in Disability: Children Nigerian oil production—without any discernible impact on oil prices. President Jonathan issued a statement, Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for committing the Nigerian Government to tackling Health if he will assess the findings of the report corruption in the petroleum industry and other sectors entitled Disabled Children and Health Reform: of the economy. We have encouraged the Nigerian Questions, Challenges and Opportunities, published by Government to ensure that fiscal transparency and Every Disabled Child Matters and The Children’s effective economic reform are implemented, although Trust; and if he will make a statement. [90884] decisions on how to achieve that remain an internal matter for them. We will continue to monitor the situation Anne Milton: The Department has considered the in Nigeria, and ensure that our travel advice reflects recommendations set out in the report entitled ‘Disabled development. Children and Health Reform: Questions, Challenges and Opportunities’, published by Every Disabled Child Matters and The Children’s Trust. Nigeria: Politics and Government A detailed response to each of the recommendations within the report was sent in correspondence between my noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign State (Earl Howe) and Every Disabled Child Matters. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has A copy of this letter has been placed in the Library. received on the causes of sectarian violence involving the Boko Haram in Nigeria. [90556] Foetal Alcohol Syndrome

Mr Bellingham: In the last year Boko Haram has Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for claimed responsibility for attacks against a range of Health what steps his Department has taken to targets including government institutions, security forces determine the prevalence of foetal alcohol spectrum and an international organisation, the UN. Recently, disorders; and what assessment he has made of the Boko Haram has also claimed responsibility for a number cost-effectiveness of (a) prevention strategies and (b) of attacks specifically targeted against Christians and targeted interventions for high-risk groups. [90941] Christian places of worship, although it remains the case that the majority of Boko Haram’s victims to date Anne Milton: In 2005, the Department commissioned have been Muslims, including Muslim religious leaders. the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit (NPEU) to We assess that the purpose of the attacks against Christians review the evidence of foetal effects of prenatal alcohol is to exacerbate religious and communal tensions. However, exposure. The NPEU published its findings in 2006 as in some instances we judge that attacks carried out with ‘Review of the Fetal Effects of Prenatal Alcohol Exposure’. criminal motives are also being ascribed to Boko Haram. The review discussed in detail the difficulties of identifying Poverty, lack of economic opportunity, social inequality accurately children with foetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) and political tensions all contribute significantly to and alcohol neuro-developmental disorder and the resulting insecurity in northern and central Nigeria. difficulties in estimating prevalence. 1007W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1008W

The review considered the risks of foetal exposure to (2) pursuant to the answer of 2 June 2010, Official low to moderate alcohol consumption and to binge Report, column 40W, on Hospitals: Wynyard, what drinking during pregnancy. plans he has for the future of the proposed new The review found no consistent evidence of adverse hospital at Wynyard in Hartlepool constituency; and if effects from low-to-moderate prenatal alcohol consumption, he will make a statement. [90482] although it also found that the evidence base was limited. Mr Simon Burns: No. I refer the hon. Member to the In 2007, UK chief medical officers (CMOs) published answer of 28 June 2010, Official Report, column 407W, revised guidance on alcohol consumption during pregnancy, on Hospitals: Durham. The recommendations of which took account of the NPEU’s review. The National the Darzi review of acute health services north of the Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) River Tees were superseded by those put forward by published further guidance on this subject for health the Independent Reconfiguration Panel (IRP). The professionals in England in 2008. “Momentum: pathways to healthcare” reconfiguration NPEU’s review identified a number of research gaps, programme has been developed locally by North Tees including levels of alcohol consumption during pregnancy, and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust, in liaison with prevalence of FAS and foetal alcohol spectrum disorder the Tees Primary Care Trust cluster, to implement the (FASD), whether a ‘safe’ level of alcohol consumption recommendations made by the IRP. could be identified, and how to characterise and diagnose Officials in the Department are currently reviewing neuro-developmental problems in children with FAS the outline business case for a private finance initiative and FASD. funding proposal for the development of the proposed Prevention strategies include universal and targeted new hospital at Wynyard. Subject to departmental approval, interventions. Among the former, advice on drinking in this application will also need to be approved by Her pregnancy and possible harmful foetal effects is incorporated Majesty’s Treasury in order to proceed. in the Department’s public health materials. A warning on drinking alcohol while pregnant or trying to conceive, Influenza: Vaccination consistent with the UK CMOs’ guidance, will be included on alcohol labels as a result of an industry pledge under Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Public Health Responsibility Deal, covering 80% of Health what proportion of general practitioner the off-trade market by the end of 2013. patients had the influenza vaccination in each primary NICE has published ‘Pregnancy and complex social care trust area in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. factors: A model for service provision for pregnant [91055] women with complex social factors’ (NICE clinical guideline 110, September 2010). This includes advice on Anne Milton: Data on the uptake of seasonal flu support for pregnant women who misuse substances, vaccine among general practitioner (GP) patients who whether alcohol or drugs. were recommended to receive the seasonal flu vaccine in 2009 and 2010 at primary care trust (PCX) level were Health: Disadvantaged published in the Health Protection Agency’s annual influenza report for the 2009-10 and 2010-11 flu seasons, Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for ‘Seasonal influenza vaccine uptake amongst GP patient Health (1) what assessment his Department has made groups in England 2010-11’, and ‘Seasonal influenza of the effect of health trainers on the general health of vaccine uptake among the 65s and over and under 65s the local population in deprived areas; [90655] at risk in England winter season 2009-10’. A copy of (2) how many health trainers there are in each report has been placed in the Library. (a) England and (b) Worcestershire. [90657] Data on the uptake of seasonal flu vaccine in GP patients recommended to receive the seasonal flu vaccine Anne Milton: The Department’s Policy Research at PCT level in the 2011-12 flu season, up to 31 December Programme has commissioned an evaluation of the 2011 have been placed in the Library and are available health trainer initiative. The project looks at the ways in on the Department’s website at: which the role has been interpreted and the types of http://immunisation.dh.gov.uk advice given. Implementation is context-specific and it The Health Protection Agency will publish an annual will be difficult to isolate and generalise about health report for the 2011-12 flu season later in 2012. impact within this or any subsequent research. The Data Collection and Reporting Service system Leukaemia: Drugs has about 85-90% coverage of health trainer services in England: this equates to 2,173 staff. For Worcestershire, Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the primary care trust organisation currently employs a Health (1) with reference to the provision of a patient total of 28 qualified or trainee health trainers, and access scheme for the drug nilotinib by Novartis, what health champions. discussions he has had with Bristol-Myers Squibb on the provision of a similar scheme for the drug Hospitals: North Tees and Hartlepool dasatinib; [90994] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State (2) with reference to the provision of a patient access for Health (1) pursuant to the answer of 28 June scheme for the drug nilotinib by Novartis, what his 2010, Official Report, column 407W, on Hospitals: policy is on the provision of a similar scheme by Durham, if he will reconsider plans to implement the Bristol-Myers Squibb with respect to dasatinib; [90995] recommendations of the Darzi review of acute health (3) with reference to the provision of a patient access services north of the River Tees; and if he will make a scheme for the drug nilotinib by Novartis, what statement; [90481] discussions he has had with leukaemia patients and 1009W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1010W their representatives on (a) this scheme and (b) the Nick Herbert: The Home Office published estimates need for comparable schemes for other leukaemia of the average cost of police activity associated with treatments. [90997] various crime types for 2003 in Home Office Online Report 30/05. These estimates can be found in table 2.2 Paul Burstow: It is for the manufacturers of a drug to via the following link. No estimates have been made of decide if they wish to submit a patient access scheme average police costs which relate specifically to investigation proposal to the Department for potential consideration and particular disposals. as part of a National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence appraisal. The manufacturer of dasatinib http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100413151441/ has not approached the Department regarding the http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr3005.pdf possibility of a patient access scheme for dasatinib. We have had no discussions with leukaemia patients Crown Prosecution Service and their representatives on the nilotinib patient access scheme or the need for comparable schemes for other John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for the leukaemia treatments. Home Department what powers she has to instigate an independent review of a police operational decision not Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for to pass evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service. Health what assessment he has made of the recent [90032] decision by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence not to recommend dasatinib as a Nick Herbert: Under section 11(2) of the Police Reform first or second line of treatment for patients with Act 2002, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, chronic myeloid leukaemia; and if he will make a my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead statement. [90996] (Mrs May), can require the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) to report “about matters relating Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and generally to the carrying out of its functions”. Under Clinical Excellence (NICE) has not yet published final section 54 (2B) of the Police Act 1996, the Home guidance on the use of dasatinib for the first-line treatment Secretary can require Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of of chronic myeloid leukaemia (CML). NICE has recently Constabulary to carry out an inspection of a police consulted on its draft recommendations and will now force. consider the responses received before issuing final guidance. NICE issued final technology appraisal guidance on Metropolitan Police 13 January 2012 that recommends the use of nilotinib for the treatment of patients with CML who are resistant or intolerant to standard-dose imatinib but does not Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for recommend dasatinib or high-dose imatinib for this the Home Department what functions have been indication. transferred from the Association of Chief Police NICE is an independent body and we have made no Officers to the Metropolitan Police since May 2010; assessment of its draft or final guidance on these drugs. and if she will make a statement. [88789] In the absence of final positive NICE technology Nick Herbert: This is a matter for the Association of appraisal guidance, primary care trusts (PCTs) are required Chief Police Officers (ACPO). to take funding decisions locally based on an assessment of the available evidence and to have processes in place to consider individual funding requests for drugs. Where Overseas Students: National Insurance Numbers a cancer drug is not routinely funded by a PCT, patients may be able to access it through the Cancer Drugs Fund. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Neurology the Home Department what assessment she has made of introducing time restrictions on national insurance Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for numbers for international students in the UK on Health with reference to the recent National Audit student visas; and if she will make a statement. [88325] Office report on Services for people with neurological conditions, what steps he plans to take to ensure Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply on behalf equitable services across England for people with of the Department for Work and Pensions. neurological conditions. [91056] We are currently examining a range of options for strengthening cross-government co-operation regarding Paul Burstow: We are considering the National Audit the immigration status of overseas nationals in the UK Office report on services for people with neurological and will make further announcements in due course. conditions, and will be responding in due course. Police and Crime Commissioners HOME DEPARTMENT Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Criminal Investigation: Costs Home Department what responsibilities she proposes that Police and Crime Commissioners will have in Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the respect of services for victims of crime. [90794] Home Department what the average cost to the police is of investigating a crime leading to a (a) caution, Nick Herbert: In November 2011, I announced the (b) conviction in a magistrates’ court, (c) conviction Government’s intention to consult on (a) the proposal in a Crown court and (d) community sentence. [90790] that the majority of support services for victims of 1011W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1012W crime be commissioned by local commissioners, based Mr Duncan: Department for International Development on locally identified need and (b), that Police and Crime Ministers and officials meet regularly with non- Commissioners be the local commissioners of such governmental organisations (NGOs) to discuss various services. The detail of these proposals will be included issues including taxation and domestic resource mobilisation in the forthcoming Victims and Witnesses consultation. in developing countries. The matter of Controlled Foreign Companies has been raised on occasion in such meetings. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment he has INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT made of the effect on developing countries of the proposed changes in the Finance Bill to the rules governing Controlled Foreign Companies. [90622] Christmas Mr Duncan: The Government have not produced an assessment of the effect on developing countries of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for proposed changes to the CFC rules as these rules are International Development how much his Department designed to prevent artificial diversion of UK profits. spent on (a) Christmas trees and (b) other Christmas The Government work through a variety of channels to decorations in 2011; and if he will make a statement. deliver high-quality capacity building in developing country [91076] tax administrations to ensure that these countries are in a position to collect the tax they are owed. Mr Duncan: Nothing. Overseas Aid

Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Recruitment International Development what mechanisms are in place to ensure that official development assistance spending by other Government Departments or Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for through pooled funding mechanisms such as the International Development how much his Department conflict pool comply with Organisation for Economic spent on recruitment agencies in each month since Co-operation and Development guidelines. [90623] September 2011. [88002] Mr Duncan: The Department for International Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) is responsible for reporting UK Development (DFID) has a framework arrangement official development assistance (ODA) to the Development with recruitment agency Manpower Services to provide Assistance Committee (DAC) of the Organisation for agency personnel for administrative positions. This Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). framework arrangement is managed centrally through This involves compiling the details of official development Human Resources Division (HRD) and detailed spend assistance spending by other Government Departments is recorded. HRD also contracts administrative personnel or through pooled funding mechanisms such as the through the agency provider Margaret Hodge when conflict pool. Manpower Services is unable to provide what is required. DFID works closely with other Government The total DFID spend to Manpower and Margaret Departments to ensure that reported ODA expenditure Hodge in each month since September 2011 is as follows: complies with the DAC directives on ODA eligibility. This includes providing written guidance on specific £ types of expenditure and answering queries on ODA eligibility. In cases where there is uncertainty regarding Month Manpower Margaret Hodge ODA eligibility, DFID requests clarification from the September 39,781.12 792.00 DAC and ensures that the recommendations are followed. October 65,84975 1,584.00 Both DFID and the DAC review the items of expenditure November 33,771.41 1,821.60 reported as ODA in each calendar year and any questions December 1— 1,188.00 regarding ODA eligibility are resolved through mutual Total 139,402.28 6,086.88 agreement with other Government Departments when 1 Not yet available through the charging mechanism. necessary. As the UK representative on ODA compliance and reporting, DFID actively participates in the DFID departments have authority to contract agency development of new criteria on ODA eligibility with personnel directly for specialist and technical roles. other member states of the DAC. Records of this spend are not maintained centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. JUSTICE Developing Countries: Multinational Companies Offenders: Mental illness Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many offenders held under the Mental International Development what representations he Health Act 1983 have received employment and has received on the likely effect on developing countries support allowance in each of the last three years; and of the proposed changes in the Finance Bill to the rules at what cost to the public purse such allowances were governing Controlled Foreign Companies. [90621] paid. [89455] 1013W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1014W

Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply on behalf TRANSPORT of the Department for Work and Pensions. Persons who have been convicted of a criminal offence Blue Badge Scheme and are serving their sentence in hospital under the Mental Health Act are not entitled to social security Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for benefits and are therefore not eligible to receive employment Transport (1) how many staff in her Department are and support allowance (ESA). Therefore any cost to the responsible for liaising with local authorities on the public purse in these cases would be met by the Department blue badge scheme; [90936] of Health. (2) what the cost has been of the online application However, once the sentence has been served benefit system for the blue badge scheme since its introduction; would become payable. Information is not held centrally [90998] on the numbers of such people who receive ESA. (3) how many complaints her Department received regarding the blue badge scheme online application system from (a) local authorities, (b) hon. Members and (c) members of the public in (i) 2011 and (ii) 2012 NORTHERN IRELAND to date; [90999] (4) how many blue badges were issued in each of the Flags last three years. [91160]

Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: Three staff in the Department for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Transport (DFT) are responsible, among other duties, Northern Ireland Executive on plans to introduce an for liaising with local authorities on the blue badge official flag for Northern Ireland. [91157] scheme. The Blue Badge Improvement Service went live on 1 Mr Paterson: The Union flag is the official flag of January 2012 in England and Scotland and will also go Northern Ireland. I have had no discussions with the live in Wales in April 2012. This is a new system which is Northern Ireland Executive in relation to this issue. now being used by all local authorities in England and Scotland to develop a common database of blue badge Human Trafficking holders and badges on issue, make a national online application form available via: Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern http://www.direct.gov.uk Ireland what assessment he has made of human and to print a new blue badge design which is more trafficking from and into Northern Ireland. [91159] secure and will prevent fraud and abuse of the scheme. The private sector has invested the capital needed to Mr Paterson: Following the devolution of policing develop the service, in return for a charge per badge and justice functions in April 2010, matters relating to issued that will be payable by local authorities. This human trafficking are now devolved and are the funding arrangement means that there is no cost to the responsibility of the Minister of Justice in Northern Government for any aspect of the service, including the Ireland. You may wish to approach him directly on this on-line form. matter. The online application system came into force on 1 January 2012. The DFT has not received any complaints about the approximately 20,000 badges that have been printed and issued or the 2,000 applications that have SCOTLAND been received through the online application form. The estimated number of blue badges issued in England Enterprise Zones was 906,000 in 2009-10 and 939,000 in 2010-11. Estimates for earlier years are not available. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has had any discussions with the Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls Scottish Government (a) orally and (b) through written communication on the location of enterprise zones in Scotland. [91161] Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment she has made of the David Mundell: The UK Government introduced effectiveness of the six-month trial to suspend the enterprise zones as part of the 2011 Budget. As a result, Dartford Crossing tolls during periods of severe the Scottish Government received Barnett consequentials congestion; and how many times the tolls were which the Scottish Government have now decided to suspended during the trial. [90532] use for a comparable scheme. The location of enterprise zones in Scotland is a matter for the Scottish Government Mike Penning: The six month trial using the criteria to determine and I have therefore had no discussions set out in the suspension of charges protocol for the with the Scottish Government on this matter. There has Dartford Crossing ended on 31 December 2011. The been discussion at official level with the Scottish findings are currently being reviewed and it is expected Government and HM Treasury on the application of that a report will be available in spring 2012. Until the incentives within enterprise zones in Scotland which review is complete, the current protocol will remain in have a bearing on reserved matters such as state aid. place. 1015W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1016W

During the trial period, the road user charge at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency Dartford Crossing was suspended once on 26 August 2011. Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps her Department is taking to Departmental Public Expenditure ensure that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) meets the needs of people who either cannot Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for or choose not to use web-based services and who Transport what she proposes will be the total continue to require face-to-face and postal services if expenditure from (a) her Department’s budget and the proposals to centralise DVLA services are (b) Network Rail’s regulated asset base on (i) bridge implemented. [90632] renewals, (ii) station enhancements and (iii) improving winter resilience in each of the remaining years of the Mike Penning [holding answer 19 January 2012]: comprehensive spending review period. [90940] Responses to the current consultation will enable the DVLA to better understand the needs of all its customers. Mrs Villiers: As part of the Growth Review, £250 million This will inform the development of the transformation of funding was provided for bridge renewals; £26 million proposals and decisions on the delivery of DVLA services. was allocated to the Access for All programme to deliver station accessibility improvements; and £10 million Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for was allocated to improved winter resilience. This expenditure Transport what assessment she has made of the likely was funded via Network Rail’s Regulated Asset Base effect of plans to centralise Driver and Vehicle (RAB). Licensing Agency services on the cost to its customers The Department for Transport and Network Rail of its services. [90634] have agreed that these schemes will be delivered by the end of Control Period 4 (i.e. March 2014). Mike Penning [holding answer 19 January 2012]: No formal assessment has been completed. Customer responses Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for to the current consultation will be used to inform a Transport with reference to the Autumn Statement, detailed assessment of the costs and benefits arising how much of the cost of the announced investment in from the proposals. The assessment will be completed (a) bridge renewals, (b) station enhancements and after the consultation period has ended. (c) improving winter resilience she proposes will fall beyond the comprehensive spending review period. Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for [90943] Transport what assessment she has made of the potential effects on the average length of time taken by Mrs Villiers: The investments in bridge renewals, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to carry out station enhancements and winter resilience will all be driver services-related tasks if proposals to centralise financed via additions to Network Rail’s Regulated its operations are implemented. [90635] Asset Base (RAB). As with other regulated utilities, additions to the Mike Penning [holding answer 19 January 2012]: RAB are financed via a return paid to Network Rail Analysis has been undertaken of all driver transactions and an amortisation (i.e. depreciation) charge. These conducted within the local office network and the payments are made over the life of the asset (generally implications of centralising this work. Initial results of around 30 years). this analysis indicate that the centralisation of driver transactions will not affect the agency’s ability to meet its Secretary of State targets. Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency Driver Information Systems Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate she has made of the cost to her Department of closing regional Driver and Vehicle Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Licensing Agency offices; and what proportion of such Transport (1) if she will publish the proposed agenda costs arise from (a) staff, (b) premises and (c) other for her Department’s planned summit on satellite costs. [90636] navigation systems; [90251] (2) what plans she has to discuss the role satellite Mike Penning [holding answer 19 January 2012]: I navigation systems in diverting HGVs away from small refer the hon. Member to my answer of 17 January rural roads at her Department’s planned summit on 2012, Official Report, column 638W, with regards to satellite navigation. [90367] potential costs arising from redundancy. Total one-off costs are estimated as follows: Norman Baker: The Department is developing the agenda for the summit with ADEPT, an association of Total one-off costs Up to £50 million local authority chief officers, and ITS(UK), a representative body of the satellite navigation industry. The agenda Staff £32 million will be shared with participants once finalised. Premises £5 million Other Up to £13 million More information on the background to the workshop can be found in the Government’s response to its These costs and saving are under continuous review consultation on road classification, available at: and the estimated figures provided are subject to refinement. http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/road-network-policy/ 1017W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1018W

High Speed Two TREASURY Bank Services Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans she has to ensure that equipment Teresa Pearce: To ask the Chancellor of the and materials for High Speed 2 are (a) made in and Exchequer if he will commission an independent (b) procured from the north-east. [90674] cost-benefit analysis of the introduction of portable Justine Greening: The Government believe that it is bank account numbers. [91164] important that the UK-based supply chain should be in a position to benefit as far as possible from the opportunities Mr Gauke: The Independent Commission on Banking presented by the development and delivery of HS2, (ICB) recommended an account switching and redirection including firms in the north-east of England. As set out service as a means to promoting competition in the in the National Infrastructure Plan, HS2 will form part banking market in their final report. of a long-term pipeline of infrastructure projects in the The Government believe that the switching service, as UK which will enable private sector firms to plan for recommended by the ICB, will deliver significant consumer the future and invest in technology and skills. The benefits once it is established in September 2013, providing Government will also seek to open a dialogue with consumers with a safe and reliable service that allows potential UK-based suppliers to ensure that they are them to hold their bank to account. well-placed to bid competitively for future contracts, The ICB decided not to recommend the introduction including making better use of pre-procurement dialogue of portable account numbers, concluding that to encourage efficiency and innovation, and establish ″its costs and incremental benefits are uncertain relative to more sustainable supply chains. redirection″ HM Coastguard and that ″it appears that redirection may deliver many of the benefits of ″ Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for account number portability at lower cost . Transport how many vessels HM Coastguard has However, as outlined in the Government response to assisted in each of the last five years. [91049] the ICB report on 19 December 2011, the Government will assess whether or not the new switching service has Mike Penning: The following table shows the number delivered the expected consumer benefits once the service of incidents in which vessels were assisted by HM is operational, and if necessary, will then consider further Coastguard in each of the last five years. measures, including full account portability.

Number of incidents where Cash Dispensing: Fees and Charges vessels assisted

2007 5,994 Teresa Pearce: To ask the Chancellor of the 2008 5,406 Exchequer whether he has held discussions with 2009 6,571 (a) publicly owned banks and (b) UK Financial 2010 6,362 Investments Ltd on cash machine charges for basic 2011 6,791 bank account holders. [91163]

Railways: Fares Mr Hoban: Treasury Ministers and officials meet with, and receive representations from, a wide range of organisations and individuals in the public and private Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. As Transport with reference to section 30 of the Coalition was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Agreement, what recent progress she has made on the Government’s practice to provide details of all such commitment to fair pricing for rail travel. [87500] representations. Mrs Villiers: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my Credit Reference Agencies right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), announced on 29 November that the Government have secured the funding needed to keep the increase in the Andrew Stephenson: To ask Mr Chancellor of the cap on average regulated rail fares and Transport for Exchequer what steps his Department is taking to London fares to an average of RPI+1% for 2012. ensure that the UK maintains its triple A credit rating. [90724] Railways: Finance Mr Hoban: The Government’s macroeconomic strategy Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for is designed to protect the economy through this period Transport what recent assessment she has made of of instability, to maintain market confidence in the UK the potential effects of changes to liquidity costs and to lay the foundations for a stronger and more for banks on the funding of (a) rolling stock and balanced economy in the future. The Autumn Statement (b) infrastructure projects. [87486] of 29 November 2011, Official Report, columns 799-810, set out a comprehensive plan to return the public finances Mrs Villiers: Rolling stock and infrastructure projects to a sustainable position and meet the Government’s that are currently in procurement but not yet signed, are fiscal targets. In recent months, the major credit rating regularly monitored for value for money and affordability. agencies have re-affirmed the UK’s sovereign credit This is done on a case by case basis. rating at AAA with a stable outlook. 1019W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1020W

Investment commitments to be delivered throughout the lifetime of this Parliament. It outlines the actions Government will Guy Opperman: To ask the Chancellor of the take to improve the lives of transgender people in all Exchequer whether he is taking steps to reform the areas of public policy, including in education, employment, banking system by using Government funds to set up hate crime, and health and social care. an industry bank. [90580] The Government will continue to work with and support public bodies, businesses, practitioners and Mr Hoban: The Government have already taken steps the voluntary sector throughout the delivery of the to get credit flowing to UK businesses and to the wider commitments included. economy. At the Autumn Statement of 29 November 2011, Official Report, columns 799-810, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), launched a package of interventions WORK AND PENSIONS worth up to £21 billion to ease the flow of credit to Carer’s Allowance businesses that do not have ready access to capital markets. The package includes a National Loan Guarantee Scheme of up to £20 billion of guarantees for bank Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for funding to lower the cost of lending to smaller businesses, Work and Pensions if he will allow carers who reach subject to state aid approval; and a new £1 billion state pension age to continue to claim carer’s Business Finance Partnership to deliver additional finance allowance. [90953] to mid-sized businesses through non-bank lending channels. This is alongside a range of other Government measures Steve Webb: The Government have no current plans to support small businesses access finance including the to make any changes to the conditions of entitlement Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG). for carer’s allowance. The Government are also keen to promote financial Children: Disadvantaged stability and competition in the UK banking sector and has already set out its intention to implement the recommendations of the Independent Commission on Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Banking. and Pensions (1) what assessment he has made of the effect of material deprivation on the levels of subjective Taxation: Self-assessment well-being of children; [90145] (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of Teresa Pearce: To ask the Chancellor of the levels of household income on the levels of subjective Exchequer what the categories of employment are in well-being of children; [90146] which people are not allowed to file individual self- (3) what research his Department has commissioned assessment forms online. [91162] to measure the subjective well-being of children; [90152] Mr Gauke: The vast majority of self assessment (SA) (4) what assessment his Department has made of the taxpayers can file their SA tax return online by using potential effects of the provisions of the Welfare the free HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) self Reform Bill on levels of subjective well-being of assessment online service or commercial software. The children. [90154] nature of an individual’s employment does not necessarily preclude them from filing their SA tax return online. However, a small proportion of SA taxpayers are not Maria Miller: The Department for Work and Pensions able to file online, usually because they need to complete is working with the Office for National Statistics (ONS) special dedicated pages. and a range of stakeholders, including other Government Departments and representatives from the third sector, A full list of these exclusions is available on the HM to develop well-being measures for children and young Revenue and Customs (HMRC) website at: people as part of the overall Measuring National Well-being www.hmrc.gov.uk/ebu/2011-exc-indi.pdf Programme. These customers are not able to file online as it would Measures appropriate to children and young people be disproportionately costly to develop the necessary need to include both their own views about their well-being forms and links to departmental computer systems. as well as more objective measures of the circumstances that children and young people find themselves in. Collecting subjective well-being information from children WOMEN AND EQUALITIES is important because research has shown that parents’ reporting of children’s subjective well-being is quite Gender Recognition different from the way children report it themselves. This work will provide more robust intelligence about Paul Maynard: To ask the Minister for Women and children’s well-being and the factors that contribute to Equalities what steps she plans to take to address it, provide a measure of children’s well-being in the UK transgender discrimination. [90546] in comparison to other comparable countries, and drive policy prioritisation to improve outcomes for children Lynne Featherstone: In December 2011, the Government and young people. This is a developing field of research, published “Advancing transgender equality: a plan for being led by ONS. Once their analysis is complete, we action,” the first ever Government transgender equality will consider its application to income and material action plan. This plan includes firm cross-Government deprivation statistics. 1021W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1022W

The Department has also commissioned a research Steve Webb: A copy of the available information has project to investigate the determinants of wellbeing been placed in the Library. across the lifecycle, which will look at both childhood well-being and well-being at later stages to see how Disability Living Allowance these inter-relate and how childhood well-being is linked to adult outcomes. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work More generally, the Department considers the impact and Pensions with reference to his Department’s of policies on groups with protected characteristics that consultation on disability living allowance, for what are likely to be affected, as the equalities duty requires. reasons the increase in the number of claimants of Age is one of the protected characteristics. disability living allowance requires the allowance to be For example, the Department has considered the reformed. [89716] impact of Welfare Reform on children. Work and the improved incomes that flow from it, have beneficial Maria Miller: Reform of DLA is long overdue. The effects in terms of people’s health and well-being, the new personal independence payment will be designed to educational achievements of children and improvements support disabled people and enable support to be targeted in communities, such as reduced crime and antisocial on those who face the greatest barriers to leading live behaviour. full, active and independent lives. Universal credit will improve work incentives by allowing We want to create a benefit that is affordable and individuals to keep more of their income as they move sustainable in the long term. The total number of people into work, and by introducing a smoother and more claiming disability living allowance has risen almost transparent reduction of benefits when they increase 30% in the last eight years, from 2.5 million to 3.2 million their earnings. In the long run universal credit could in 2010-11, almost three quarters of which is not attributable reduce the number of workless households by as much to demographics, and total DLA expenditure has increased as 300,000 according to the Impact Assessment published over the same period by almost £3.4 billion (nearly 40% by the Department of Work and Pensions in October in 2011-12 prices.) If unreformed the number claiming 2011. DLA would rise to 3.5 million. The cost of this would The greater simplicity of universal credit is also expected be unsustainable. However this is only one of a number to lead to a substantial increase in the take-up of of factors underpinning reform. currently unclaimed benefits, with most of the impact There is also no systematic process of reviewing being at the lower end of the income distribution. whether awards remain correct and an over-reliance on The Impact Assessment published in October 2011 self-assessment—only around 50% of applications for estimates that, on reasonable assumptions, the combined DLA are corroborated by medical evidence. In 2004-05 impact of take-up and entitlements will lift around the National Benefit Review estimated that £630 million 900,000 individuals out of poverty, including more than of incorrect payments were being made to individuals 350,000 children and around 550,000 working-age adults. whose condition had changed. Equally concerning is The Department are also reforming the child that £190 million was not claimed despite individuals maintenance system. It is our strong view that it is the experiencing deteriorating conditions. It cannot be right best outcome for the children if separating parents that individuals receive incorrect awards, and our reforms make a collaborative family based agreement wherever will ensure awards are regularly reviewed in a proportionate possible. Through better co-ordinated and strengthened way. family support services and wider reforms, we will help and encourage parents to reach a collaborative arrangement. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for However for those parents who cannot make their own Work and Pensions if he will assess the findings of the arrangement we will introduce a new statutory child report entitled Responsible Reform: A report on the maintenance service in 2012 to enable us to better proposed changes to Disability Living Allowance, calculate and collect money for children. published by Dr S J Campbell and other disability Additionally, when preparing the 2011 Child Poverty representatives; and if he will make a statement. Strategy, the Child Poverty Unit worked with the Office [90885] of the Children’s Commissioner to get opinions from children and their parents as to what they thought the Maria Miller: I am aware of the publication of this strategy should contain. This was published by the report. I believe that the report seriously misrepresents Children’s Commissioner as “Consulting with Children the way the Department has carried out consultation and Young People on Child Poverty (2011)”. and design of necessary reforms to disability living allowance. In particular the report fails to acknowledge Council Tax the extensive work that the Department has done since the formal consultation on DLA reform ended nearly a Mr Raynsford: To ask the Secretary of State for year ago. We have also had ongoing meetings with Work and Pensions if he will publish the council tax disabled people and representative organisations and benefit data published in Table 15a and Table 15b by have just commenced a further, formal consultation of his Department on 14 December 2011 at national 15 weeks on revised assessment criteria as a result of the aggregate level for each (a) local authority and earlier informal consultation. (b) parliamentary constituency showing (i) council tax These discussions have led to significant changes to benefit recipients by age group and family type at our plans. For example, we will not be removing the September 2011 and (ii) council tax benefit recipients’ mobility component from care home residents and we average weekly award by age group and family type at have decided that the qualifying period will be three September 2011. [R] [89576] months instead of six. We have also listened and made 1023W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1024W significant changes to the assessment criteria as a result provider what the proportion was of jobseekers of our engagement with disabled people and their who started on the Flexible New Deal and entered organisations. These developments reflect our determination employment up to (a) three months, (b) six months, that the design and development of personal independence (c) nine months and (d) 12 months after starting on payment should be through active engagement with the programme. [90946] disabled people and their representative organisations. The case for reform is clear—DLA is confusing for Chris Grayling: Flexible new deal providers were paid individuals to understand, based on unclear criteria on the basis of a monthly service fee and payments for and often results in inconsistent awards. Expenditure is job outcomes both short-term (13 weeks in continuous also far in excess of the initial estimated costs and it employment) and sustained outcomes (26/30 weeks in currently costs £12.6 billion. We need to ensure that the employment). Participants stayed on the programme benefit is sustainable, and that it reflects the needs of for up to 12 months although three month extensions disabled people today, rather than in the 1990s. Our were available. reforms will ensure that support is targeted on those The following figures are based on participants who who face the greatest challenges to take part in everyday started prior to September 2010 and hence could have life. spent a year on the programme prior to contract termination. They show the percentage of participants Employer’s Liability with each flexible new deal provider who achieved a 13 week job outcome which started within x months of Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for their entry to flexible new deal. Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 9 September 2011, Official Report, column 908W, on Percentage of FND employers liability, when he expects to make a final participants who announcement on the status and funding arrangements achieved Job Outcome 3 6 9 12 of the Employers Liability Insurance Bureau. [90646] which started by: months months months months A4e (5 contracts) 9 15 19 20 Chris Grayling: I appreciate that the Government’s Calder Holdings 11 16 19 21 response to the consultation is taking longer to publish Dudley Metropolitan 8121516 than many had hoped. However the issues raised are Borough Council complex and we remain in discussions with all stakeholders EOS-Works Ltd 9 14 17 19 to make sure we get this right. We are still carefully Ingeus (2 contracts) 10 16 19 21 considering all the issues and will bring forward our Max Employment UK 13 20 25 27 proposals in due course. Ltd Pertemps People 12 19 23 25 Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Development Group Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Remploy 10 16 19 21 9 September 2011, Official Report, column 908W, on Seetec 9 14 18 20 employers liability, which stakeholders (a) Ministers Serco (3 contracts) 10 16 19 21 and (b) officials have met to discuss employer liability Skills Training UK Ltd 11 18 22 24 insurance since May 2010; and if he will make a The Wise Group 10 15 19 20 statement. [90647] TNG 12 18 21 23 Working Links (4 9151920 Chris Grayling: Since May 2010 the Minister for contracts) Welfare Reform, Lord Freud, has met with representatives Overall 10 16 19 21 from the Association of British Insurers and Zurich, Source: Aviva and RSA Insurance to discuss the proposals in Provider Referrals and Payment System Management Information the public consultation, accessing compensation— (December 2011) supporting people who need to trace employers’ liability Employment: Care Industry insurance. Additionally he has had discussions with the Asbestos Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for Victims Support Groups Forum UK, the Association Work and Pensions how many jobs in the care industry of Personal Injury Lawyers, the Association of Run-Off were advertised in jobcentres in December 2011; and Companies, the Financial Services Authority, the Financial what proportion of these vacancies were filled. [90182] Services Compensation scheme, the All Party Parliamentary Group on Health and Safety and a representative from Chris Grayling: The information requested is not the Trades Union Congress. available in the format requested. Such information as DWP officials have met with the same groups of is available is as follows: stakeholders as well as Resolute Management Services The number of care assistants and home carers vacancies Ltd. They also chaired the annual meeting of the Employers’ notified for the month ending 2 December 2011 (commonly Liability Code of Practice Review Body. referred to as December 2011) for Great Britain was 35,879. Employment Schemes Industrial Health and Safety

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Pensions what assessment he has made of the 16 January 2012, Official Report, column 594W, on effectiveness of health and safety rules relating to local employment schemes, for each individual contracted events. [91156] 1025W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1026W

Chris Grayling: The Government are concerned to Steve Webb: In April 2011, we set out proposals for ensure that local events are not unnecessarily constrained reform of the state pension system in a Green Paper ″A by unnecessary health and safety regulations. These State Pension for the 21st Century″. This provides an issues are taken further in the two Government reports, opportunity to review all aspects of the state pension “Common Sense Common Safety”, published in 2010, scheme, including elements such as the age addition, to and, “Good Health and Safety, Good for Everyone”, ensure that any reformed system is affordable, sustainable published in 2011. and supports the needs of future pensioners; who will Additionally the Health and Safety Executive set up face different challenges in retirement than today’s a Challenge Panel on 5 January 2012 to enable business pensioners. to challenge specific health and safety regulatory advice. A second panel—to be set up later this year—will be Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work available for those who wish to challenge claims made and Pensions how many people in the UK hold about health and safety requirements by non-regulators. self-invested personal pensions; and what estimate has been made of their total value. [91001]

Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit Steve Webb: The information requested is not available because it is not collected from pension providers. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Information about the number of people contributing and Pensions how many applications for industrial to personal and stakeholder pensions and the value of injuries disablement benefit have been made in each of their contributions can be found on the HMRC website the last four years; and how many were (a) awarded on in tables 7.4 and 7.5 at the following address: first application, (b) awarded after an internal review http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/pensions/menu-by-year.htm and (c) awarded after a First Tier Tribunal hearing. Information about the total value of defined contribution [89726] pensions can be found in the Office for National Statistics publication ″Wealth in Great Britain.″ Chris Grayling: The information on claim numbers and assessments put into payment following internal Social Security Benefits reviews or following a First Tier Tribunal hearing is not available. The number of claims and payable assessments Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for for the last four years is as follows: Work and Pensions what the average total level of IIDB claims and decision outcomes benefits received per household in receipt of benefits Claims Decisions Assessments Assessments was in (a) Poplar and Limehouse constituency, (b) the received made not payable payable London Borough of Tower Hamlets and (c) nationally January to 8,190 9,480 1,800 3,670 in the latest period for which figures are available. March [89872] 2011 2010 41,740 58,590 15,570 23,650 Chris Grayling: While information on DWP administered 2009 63,840 41,440 8,020 14,720 benefits is available at constituency level, we do not 2008 35,050 33,070 5,560 12,160 hold complete information on those benefits administered Notes: by other Government Departments and organisations. 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Restricting analysis to those benefits administered directly 2. Payment for IIDB is dependent on the individual’s level of disability. by DWP may present a misleading picture of benefit The threshold for payment of industrial injuries disablement benefit receipt. In addition, we estimate that developing an is a disablement assessment of 14%. A successful claim can be an assessment at 1% disablement, which would not of itself give rise to appropriate methodology and quality assuring any analysis benefit. of DWP administrative data would exceed disproportionate 3. There is a time delay between claims being made and first assessments cost limits. taking place. Comparing claims and payable first assessments will give an estimated success rate only as decisions on claims submitted According to the latest release of the Family Resource are not necessarily made in the same time period. For this reason the Survey (FRS), the median weekly household income number of first assessments made in a year may exceed the number of from benefits and tax credits for households with at claims made. Prescribed Disease A14 (Osteoarthritis of the knee in least one member in receipt of at least one benefit or tax miners) was introduced from 13 July 2009. This resulted in a large credit in the United Kingdom in 2009-10 was £141. The number of claims, many of which did not receive first assessments until early 2010. This accounts for the apparent particularly large sample size of the FRS is not large enough to provide anomaly between numbers of claims and first assessments in 2009-10. robust estimates at the constituency or borough level. 4. Includes claims to Prescribed Disease A11 under new regulations Notes: from 1 October 2007. 5. Information is published at: 1. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest pound. http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/iidb/ 2. The estimates are based on sample counts that have been index.php?page=iidb_quarterly_mar11 adjusted for non-response using multi-purpose grossing factors that control for tenure type, council tax band and a number of demographic variables. Pensions 3. Estimates are subject to sampling error and remaining non-sampling bias. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. The FRS is known to under-record benefit receipt. Please see Work and Pensions whether he plans to increase the table M6 of Chapter 7 of the latest publication for more information: 25 pence per week pension increase payable to http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/2009_10/ individuals aged 80 or older. [90954] frs_2009_10_report.pdf 1027W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1028W

5. These figures have not been adjusted to account for different Work Capability Assessment, what proportion of household sizes. (a) doctors, (b) nurses and (c) physiotherapists were 6. A household refers to a single person or group of people living assessed as (i) A-grade, (ii) B-grade, (iii) C-grade and at the same address as their only or main residence, who either (iv) D-grade, by region. [90316] share one meal a day together or share the living accommodation (i.e. a living room). A household will consist of one or more benefit units. Chris Grayling: Healthcare Professionals (HCP’S) are not categorised in terms of A, B and C as some may UK Law have more than one audit undertaken. The results in respect of the audit data referred to in Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for page 14 of the Government’s response to Professor Work and Pensions which EU (a) Directives, Harrington’s second independent review of the work (b) Regulations and (c) other legislation affecting his capability assessment are shown in the following table. Department require transposition into UK law; and It shows overall the number of reports for each what estimate he has made of the cost to (i) the public practitioner type that achieved either an A, B, or C purse and (ii) the private sector of such measures. grade following audit. [89679] Sum of count of audits Chris Grayling: The EU Directives affecting the Percentage Department for Work and Pensions and requiring Overall grade code transposition into UK law are as follows: Grand Directive 2010/41/EU on the application of the principle Practitioner type ABCTotal of equal treatment between men and women engaged in Medical Adviser 71.5 24.8 3.7 100.0 an activity in a self employed capacity. This repeals Registered nurse 70.2 25.0 4.8 100.0 council directive 86/613/EEC. Data is limited in this Registered 71.1 28.9 0.0 100.0 area but we estimate costs to the public purse to be less physiotherapist than £1 million per annum. The transposition is not Grand total 70.7 25.1 4.2 100.0 expected to impose any costs on the private sector. Directive 2010/32/EU on the Framework Agreement At Audit category D is not a recognised category. on prevention from sharp injuries in the hospital and healthcare sector concluded by HOSPEEM and EPSU. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for This requires transposition by 11 May 2013. An impact Work and Pensions with reference to page 14 of assessment is being prepared, but costs to the private the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm sector are likely to be low. As the directive relates to Harrington’s Second Independent Review of the Work risks of injury to workers in the healthcare sector we Capability Assessment, how often each Atos approved anticipate that the majority of costs will fall to the health care professional is subject to (a) auditing and NHS. Administrative costs of transposing the directive (b) quality checking. [90317] is estimated at around £140,000. Unemployment: Immigration Chris Grayling: The frequency of audit/quality checking varies. For example, targeted audit is carried out where a quality, rework or complaint issue has been identified Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for in order to establish whether there is evidence of an Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of ongoing problem and the number of cases audited is the Migration Advisory Committee’s report on the link determined by the health care professional’s mentor or between immigration and unemployment. [91158] medical manager. However, as a minimum, the work of every health care professional in each benefit stream Chris Grayling: No formal assessment has been made and function is audited six monthly on a rolling basis. of the Migration Advisory Committee report, but I welcome the contribution the committee’s work is making to our understanding of the role migration plays in the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for UK labour market. Work and Pensions with reference to page 14 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Its conclusions are consistent with the direction of Harrington’s Second Independent Review of the government policies that are focused on bringing migration Work Capability Assessment, what proportion of (a) down to more sustainable levels. We are undertaking a doctors, (b) nurses and (c) physiotherapists received radical shake up of the welfare system and investing to more than one C-grade assessment. [90318] improve the skills of the existing UK work force. This will ensure that people are better prepared for, have more incentive and face more requirements to take up Chris Grayling: In respect to the audited data referred work, reducing the degree to which we rely on migrant to in page 14 of the Government’s response to Professor workers. Harrington’s second independent review of the Work Capability Assessment the results are: Work Capability Assessments Percentage

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) Doctors 1.3 Work and Pensions with reference to page 14 of (b) Nurses 1.1 the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm (c) Physiotherapists 0 Harrington’s Second Independent Review of the 1029W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1030W

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Policy Commission on 26 January 2011 at which the Work and Pensions with reference to page 16 of the discussion included various methods of providing support Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s both in work and in the transition back into employment Second Independent Review of the Work Capability to people with drug and alcohol misuse-related conditions. Assessment, what proportion of (a) employment and As part of Second Independent Review Professor support allowance (ESA) claimants fail to return the Harrington met with the UK Drug Policy Commission, initial ESA50 questionnaire, (b) ESA claimants fail to and as set out in our response to Professor Harrington attendtheWorkCapabilityAssessment,(c)WorkCapability we have committed to engage with the UK Drug Policy Assessment decisions meet the criteria in the Decision Commission and other relevant experts during 2012 as MakingQualityAssessmentFramework,(d)reconsiderations part of implementing his recommendations. arereceived,(e)decisionsarechangedfollowingreconsideration, (f) appeals are received and (g) appeals are upheld. [90321] Work Programme

Chris Grayling: As detailed in the Government’s response, DWP will be using a wide range of indices and management Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for information to monitor the impact of the changes Work and Pensions what mechanism he has put in introduced as a result of Professor Harrington’s first place to alert his Department to potential prime independent review. provider failure on the Work programme. [90933] Changes to the ESA process were introduced from October 2011 to better support claimants throughout Chris Grayling: The Department has set minimum the process, ensuring they understand what is required performance standards for Work programme providers of them and why a particular decision has been made. and we will use internal job outcome information to Its is anticipated that these changes will result in a provide early warning of any potential failure to deliver reduction in the rates of failure to return the initial these standards. ESA50 questionnaire; failure to attend the work capability Minimum standards have been set for each of the assessment and appeals as well as improvements to main participant groups, requiring providers to deliver decision making standards which may result in both job outcome results that are at least 10% higher than less reconsiderations and decisions being overturned at would have been expected if those same groups had not appeal. However it is too early as yet to report any joined the programme. findings resulting from the changes in October. We will intervene and take action, with the aim of improving performance, against providers who fail to Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for meet the minimum standards. If those performance Work and Pensions with reference to page 19 of the improvements are not achieved within a short timescale, Government’s response to Professor Malcolm action up to and including contract termination will be Harrington’s Second Independent Review of the Work taken. Capability Assessment, if he will publish the results of In addition the Department will encourage ongoing his Department’s monthly monitor of recruitment and competition by shifting market share from those who retention of Atos-approved health care professionals. perform least well to the best performing provider in the [90331] contract package area.

Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for monitors on a monthly basis the recruitment and retention Work and Pensions whether the outcome data for the of Atos-approved health care professionals. Work programme to be published in autumn 2012 will At the monthly Executive Management Board (EMB) include the number of referrals to and outcome Atos Healthcare provide DWP with a report detailing payments received by individual tier 1 and tier 2 recruitment, attrition, and capacity. providers in each contract package area. [90937] However the information contained within this report is commercial in confidence. It cannot be released as Chris Grayling: Official statistics on Work programme release of the information would prejudice the interests referrals and attachments up to October 2011 will be of Atos Healthcare and the Department’s future dealings published in February 2012. Statistics on job outcomes with Atos Healthcare or other service providers. will be released from autumn 2012. DWP collects data at prime provider level and therefore the published Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for statistics will report only to prime provider level for Work and Pensions with reference to page 20 of the each contract. Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second Independent Review of the Work Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Capability Assessment, when he last met the UK Drug Work and Pensions what the total value is of Work Policy Commission to discuss the support offered to programme contracts awarded to each individual prime employment and support allowance claimants with provider. [90938] drug and alcohol misuse-related conditions. [90333] Chris Grayling: Work programme funding for providers Chris Grayling: The Minister for Disabled People, my is based primarily on results. Total spend depends on hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), performance. Our forecasts are for expenditure to be in and I met with representatives from the UK Drug the region of £3-5 billion over the life of contracts. 1031W Written Answers20 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 1032W

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of has commissioned a consortium led by the Institute for 16 January 2012, Official Report, column 600W,on work Employment Studies (IES) to undertake an independent programme, which organisation he has commissioned to evaluation of the Work programme. Evaluation work providetheindependentevaluationof theWorkprogramme. started in autumn 2011 and will conclude in 2014. [90948]

WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Friday 20 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 47WS TRANSPORT ...... 49WS Statutory Register of Lobbyists ...... 47WS Intercity West Coast Rail Franchise ...... 49WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 50WS AFFAIRS...... 47WS Draft Occupational Pension Schemes and Pension Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 47WS Protection Fund (Equality) (Amendment) Environment Council...... 48WS Regulations...... 50WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 20 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 971W EDUCATION—continued Buildings...... 971W Contact Orders: Grandparents...... 990W Crown Prosecution Service...... 971W EU Law...... 990W Free School Meals...... 991W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 972W Free Schools...... 992W Apprentices: Devon...... 972W GCE A-Level: Mathematics...... 992W Apprentices: Yorkshire and the Humber ...... 974W Health Education: Driving under Influence ...... 997W Business: Billing...... 973W Special Educational Needs: Training...... 998W Ceramics: Industry...... 975W Further Education: Part-time Education ...... 975W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 999W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 976W Carbon Emissions: EU Law...... 999W Office for Fair Access...... 976W Green Deal Scheme...... 999W Regional Growth Fund: Longbridge...... 976W Green Deal Scheme: Mobile Homes ...... 999W Shareholders ...... 977W Renewable Energy: Manpower...... 1000W Shell...... 977W Solar Power...... 1000W Uranium: Prices ...... 1001W CABINET OFFICE...... 978W Warm Front Scheme ...... 1002W Charities ...... 978W Charities: Closures...... 979W Charities: Regulation ...... 979W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Childbirth ...... 979W AFFAIRS...... 1002W Health...... 980W Veterinary Services...... 1002W Members: Correspondence ...... 981W Perinatal Mortality ...... 982W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1002W Personal Savings ...... 982W Bosnia and Herzegovina ...... 1002W Bosnia and Herzegovina: Politics and CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 983W Government...... 1003W Apprentices...... 983W Burma: Politics and Government ...... 1003W Church Commissioners: Anniversaries ...... 984W Embassies: Flags...... 1004W Church of England Rural Affairs Committee ...... 984W Kazakhstan: Elections ...... 1004W Churches: Repairs and Maintenance...... 984W Nigeria: Fuels ...... 1004W Churches: Rural Areas ...... 985W Nigeria: Oil ...... 1005W Nigeria: Politics and Government ...... 1005W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 986W South Sudan: Politics and Government...... 1006W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 986W Sudan...... 1006W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 986W Arts...... 986W HEALTH...... 1006W Diamond Jubilee 2012: Voluntary Organisations ... 986W Disability: Children...... 1006W Digital Broadcasting ...... 987W Foetal Alcohol Syndrome ...... 1006W EU Law...... 987W Health: Disadvantaged...... 1007W Ofcom...... 987W Hospitals: North Tees and Hartlepool ...... 1007W Radio Frequencies: Audio Equipment ...... 988W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 1008W Telephones ...... 988W Leukaemia: Drugs ...... 1008W Third Sector...... 989W Neurology ...... 1009W Tourism: Northumberland...... 989W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1009W DEFENCE...... 989W Criminal Investigation: Costs...... 1009W Defence Equipment: Repairs and Maintenance ..... 989W Crown Prosecution Service...... 1010W Metropolitan Police ...... 1010W EDUCATION...... 990W Overseas Students: National Insurance Numbers .. 1010W Academies...... 990W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 1010W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1011W TREASURY ...... 1018W Christmas...... 1011W Bank Services...... 1018W Departmental Recruitment ...... 1011W Cash Dispensing: Fees and Charges...... 1018W Developing Countries: Multinational Companies.. 1011W Credit Reference Agencies...... 1018W Overseas Aid...... 1012W Investment ...... 1019W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 1019W JUSTICE...... 1012W Offenders: Mental illness...... 1012W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 1019W Gender Recognition...... 1019W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1013W Flags ...... 1013W Human Trafficking ...... 1013W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1020W Carer’s Allowance ...... 1020W SCOTLAND...... 1013W Children: Disadvantaged...... 1020W Enterprise Zones...... 1013W Council Tax ...... 1021W Disability Living Allowance...... 1022W TRANSPORT ...... 1014W Employer’s Liability ...... 1023W Blue Badge Scheme...... 1014W Employment: Care Industry...... 1024W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls ...... 1014W Employment Schemes ...... 1023W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1015W Industrial Health and Safety...... 1024W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency...... 1015W Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit...... 1025W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency...... 1016W Pensions...... 1025W Driver Information Systems...... 1016W Social Security Benefits...... 1026W High Speed Two...... 1017W UK Law...... 1027W HM Coastguard...... 1017W Unemployment: Immigration...... 1027W Railways: Fares ...... 1017W Work Capability Assessments ...... 1027W Railways: Finance ...... 1017W Work Programme...... 1030W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Friday 20 January 2012

Daylight Saving Bill [Col. 969] As amended, considered

Live Music Bill [Lords] [Col. 1033] Read the Third time and passed

Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties) [Col. 1039] Debate on motion for the Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 47WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 971W] [see index inside back page]