University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

David Dellinger Memoir

D381D. Dellinger, David b. 1915 Interview and memoir 4 tapes, 135 mins., 89 pp.

WWII CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS PROJECT Dellinger, one of eight Union Seminary students jailed for refusing to register for the draft during WWII, discusses the events and people who have influenced his pacifism, his decision not to register, and his subsequent prison terms. He also discusses his involvement with various radical causes, publication of his magazine Liberation, organizing the Intentional Community at Glen Gardiner, New Jersey, Dr. Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement, protests and a prison hunger strike, war-tax resistance, McCarthy and communism, activism in civil rights and anti-nuclear causes, and the 1968 Chicago Democratic National Convention and the trial which followed.

Interview by C. Arthur Bradley, 1988 OPEN See collateral file

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1988 University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface

'Ibis manuscript is the product of tape-recorded, interviews conducted by c. Arthur Bradley for the oral History Office on J\tly 7, 1988. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani Lima Jett edited the transcript. David Dellirger reviewed the transcript.

David Dellirger was born in wakefield, Massachusetts on AugUst 22, 1915. He is a graduate of wakefield High School ani Yale COllege. After Yale he spent a year of stlXly at New COllege, OXford, ani then two years as a graduate advisor at Dtlight Hall, the canplS religious m:ganization at Yale. Mr. Dellin;Jer was at union for alB year before his refUsal to register. He was alB of the eight union CX>' s who went to jall in 1940. After two separate prison tenns, one spent at Iml1:m:y, COnnecticut ani the other at Maricm, Illinois, Mr. Dellinger returned to New Jersey to live in an intentional c:x::.mm.mity ani start a radical magazine, Liberation. He was both editor, pmlisher ani printer of this magazJ.ne. At the same tiJne David was active in various radical causes. He served em the executive board of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, the war Resisters Isague, the Ccmnittee for Ncm-violent Action.

Dellin;;Jer ani his wife Elizabeth have three qrown children ani live in Peacham, Ventr.tnt where he oontinues his writin], OJ:ganizing, ani lecbJri.rq on issues of radicalism, pacifism ani socialism. c. Arthur Bradley has been an Associate Cbnferenoe Minister for the Illinois Cbnference of the united Church of Christ, deployed in the central Association in Peoria, Illinois, fran 1980 to the present. Dr. Bradley grew up in Shaker Heights ani Cl:Jerlin, ado. Since 1952 he has been an OJ:dained clergyman, first in the Q:n;Jregational• Christian Churches ani then after the merger in the united Qrurch of Christ. He has served clnlrches in New HaDplhire ani Cbnuecticut. He holds a Bachelors degree fran Harvard COllege, a Masters of Divinity Degree fran unicm 'lheoloqical seminary, a Masters of 8acred 'lheology fran Yale Divinity SChool, ani a D:Jctor of :Arll.oeqity in American studies fran New York university. Dr. Bradley is married to Jean ani they have four adult children.

Readers of the oral histoJ:y l18lDir should bear in mini that it is a transcript of the spoken word, ani that the :inte:r:viewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the infonnal., conversational style that is inh.el:ent in such historical sc:uroes. 8arganDn state university is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the menoir, nor for views ~ therein; these are for the reader to judge.

'Ihe manuscript rray be read, quoted am cited freely. It rray not be reproduced in whole or in part by art:/ means, electronic or mechanical, without permission in writing fran the oral Histo:cy Office, Sanqam:m state university, Sprirqfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Table of Contents

Padical Ideas • • • • • • 0 1

Reinhold Neib.lhr ani Ncmnan 'Ihcmas. 0 • 2 Nazi GeJ:many ani Jews • • 3 Jube Memorial c::hurdl in Newark, New Jersey. • 4

stalinist Trials ani camm.mism.. • • 5 OXford university Pacifist Association. • 7

social Classes ani Inequality • 0 8

Influences of Ghan:ii. • .10

Newark, New Jersey. • .12 Dorothy Day and the catholic worker • .15 original statement of Pacifism. .17

'lbe Trial • • .18 5uR;orters ani Opponents. .19 Reasons for Organizin;J. .20 Intentialal CCmmmity in Glen Gardiner, New Jersey. .21. Attempted Assassination and Destruction • .22

Fhll.osqhy of the Intentional Ommmity • • .23 Li.bartarian Press ani Workers Cooperative • .24 A. J. lollste • .25

Burger strike 0 0 .27

Peacemakers • 0 • .29 caumittee for Non-violent Action. • .30 March an washi.nqton and the Civil Rights Act. .33 Civil Disobedience. .34 war-tax Resistance. .35 Martin Il1ther King and Liberation . .36 After Release fran Prisal, April 1945 .38 Peace Machine • .39

Reflection of Prisal Hl.1rger stikes. • .41

SOWin;J the seeds 0 • .44 Hydrogen Banb • .45 Ethel ani Julius RosenbeJ:q. .47 canmuna1 in Glen Gardiner • .48

Liberation ard Al:tm:native. • .50

Paul Goodman. • .52

Clergy Pecple arxi Politicians • • .55 Martin I..uther K:iJ'q ani the Bus Boyoatt. .57 Activism in Civil Rights ani Anti-nuclear Causes. .59

Public Speakin;J ED;Jagements • • .65

McCarthy' Ccmm.mism ani the Cbld War. • .69 American Forum on SOCialist F.ducation • .70 Chicaqo Democratic convention • .75 silence in the Media. .77 Trial in Chicago. .so Wasb.i.r¥ft.on Demonstration, .AuJUst 1965 • .86 David Dellinger, July 7 I 1988, F'eacham, VQJ:lOOl'lt. c. Arthur BradleyI Interviewer.

Q: What were the infl'\lel'a!S that brought you to the pacifist position?

A: I think the key original influence was the New Testament. I grew up bored with church and not very much in favor of it but I was a reader. In junior high school I 'Went to the New Testament to look up sanethir:¥;J I had been read.irq. I think it was in Shelley. I have been writirq about this in an autobiography so same of this is already in m,y mind. I think it was sc:methin:;J in Shelley but if not it was one of the ranantic :poets probably or novelists. 'Ib m,y utter amazement I was thrilled by the Senoon on the Mount to begin with. As I say in m,y autobiography, the 'WOrds came alive ccmpletely differently than the way they had been used against us in chUrch. Against everything that seemed to be flm and lively 0

Q: Were you a member of a COl'lgregational church?

A: I did belorq to the COl'lgregational church, I was baptized there and I joined.

Q: It was very dull and prchlbitive? A: It was, ani the big eag;i1asis was on original sin, etc. so that was a sustainin:J influence ani probably still is. But then when I went to college I was again influenced by the university Christian Association, by Dr.right Hall, an::1 by groJpS, workshops ani classes whatever they had, discussion groups.

Q: But not in high school? '!here wasn 1 t any group discussion?

A: Only with a couple of my closest frietXls. I should say by the way I was also radicalized right arourrl the same time that I discovered the New Testament.

Q: Were you?

A: well, naively radicalized. I made the mistake of fall~ in love with a poor Irish girl ani my best friem, because he and I were well it wasn't just because that but he ani I were two of the best athletes in our class, was a poor Italian boy and both of those were outside the pale of the society that I grew up in. so all those influences came together and I think less with my girl friem than with my boy friern, I discusse:l the New Testament. He ani I together were impressed by it, etc. we had various radical ideas about buildin;J a David Dellin;Jer 2 real church where they WJUld live like the early Olristians in Which you were "neither rich or poor ai1IOlJ3S"t them." Q: '!he social distinctions in society :really get to you? 'Ihe fake society?

A: Yes, on a very personal level but at the same time I discovered the New Testament. But I still stayed c;utside the church. But at Yale, D.rlght Hall was alive ani Battel Cllapel had a series of brilliant speakers mostly fran the outside. I couldn't tell you which years but in the relatively early years I was very much influenced by Nonnan 'D1anas ani Reinhold Nei.buhr, both of whan came there ani spoke there at least once if nat twice a year. By the time I had finished at Yale I was disillusialed with Reinhold Ne.iJ:Juhr who began his transition to Moral Man ani InllDral Soci1Eebut actually it heoame i.nmcral man ani 1irilim'al society. BUt by tine I had refused to register for the draft at union Semi.nal.'y, Reinhold Neibuhr was an outspoken qp:>nent of pacifism.

Q: Yes, he was, a very ~ opponent of it.

A: 'Ihe day that eight of us went to jail he spoke in the chapel ani said, I don't knc:M, the idea was that this was the DDSt shameful day of his mi.nisb:y, that eight students at the seminary Where he was teachi.n; had no right goiniJ to jail as pacifists.

Q: He JmJSt have been ~ ani upset?

A: well yes, but m:t disUlusiOl'lltellt with Rainie had begun two or three years before that.

Q: But Nonnan 'Ihanas, you weren •t disillusione:l with hiln?

A: well, I had my disappointments with Nonnan. I was on the EKecutive camnittee of the SOCialist Party USA of which Nonnan was the candidate and in 1939 or 1940 the Socialist Party, which was a force then, it wasn't like it is today. '!hey held their anrnm1 convention I guess, or bianmlal., I don't know', in Mllwaukee I t:hink it was am preceded and probably folle1.Aied by a meetin;J of the executive ocmnittee on which I sat. 'Ihe sentiJDent of the socialist Party majority was against the war and in favor of the p:stion that the socialists, that a few people like Jean Girat canes to mirr:i, a couple of socialists had taken in World War I in Europe. But mainly the socialist p::sition was that there had been a great betrayal of the workin;J class ani of the internationalism of the It¥:JVement because the socialists had errlorsed the war in Europe, the French endorsed the F:relrh, the Gelman erxiorsed the German, etc. 'Ihat was the prevailin;J sentinent in the socialist party U.S.A. in 1939 or 1940. It was more apt to be 1940. Nonnan 'Ihanas led the fight against an anti-war plank. I can remember to this day, he was a brilliant orator and he made an appeal. I can remember him saying, "'!here is not.hirq that st:an:ls between us and the Nazi barbarians except a wall of human bodies." Ani it wasn't just I. I was a ycJI..li'gSter but Travis Clement an:i Lillian Siems, who '\~!ere editors of the Socialist call, two eldar socialists, I mean Nonnan's age probably or ma¥£e a little ycuJ'J)er, with a lon:;r history am a lot of prestige of the1.r c:wn ani I, the three of us, I would say if not to David I::'lellin:Jer 3 over-estilnate :my own role, but we lead the fight on the anti-war position but by a very 1'laJ:'J:'CM vote mainly because of Nonnan's appeal am prestige, etc., it was defeated. rater by 1943 or 1944 at the latest, Nonnan who had said what his position was, critical S\.1R)Ort of the war, but for a couple of years like evm:yJ:xx:ly else who left the q:p:l&ition he was not at all critical. But after the u.s. saturation baobin;J of Gel:man cities am various other iooidents.

Q: Ani total war?

A: Total war am insistence m uncon:iitional surren::1er rather than workin;;r out aey kind of honorable peace.

Q: 1ben he turned against it?

A: Well, he m:xierated his position ani he spent a lot of time attackirq the total war position. so I wasn't disillusioned with Norman 'Ihanas the way I was disillusioned with Reinhold Neibuhr. I ~t that within his own insights 'IhaDas maintained his integrity am 1t was a very difficult siblation with the Nazis beirg 'What they 'Were.

Q: Exactly. Did your situatim adapt to that?

A: Well, see 'What happened to me, I had a fellCMShip to study at OXford, New COllege, OXford, ani acblally I could have stayed the second year but I gave it up because I thought I should be actively involved in st:tuggles. st.rarqely enc:RJgh I went back to Yale but nonetheless at Drdght Hall there was outside st:tuggle as well as inside st.J:ugqle for the university employees. Q: You were involved in that kind of thin:J? A: But also in anti-war activity ani so forth. But the thin;J is because I was over there I traveled in Nazi Gennany several times arrl I stayed with Jewish families. After I had been at OXford for a while there was a Gennan Rhodes SCholar there. Typically it was the begimirg of :my leamin;J sane t:hirgs such as the fact that no dictatorship is ever total. As a total anti-fascist I was shocked to fird out that the GeJ:man Rhodes SCholar who was in New COllege was an anti-Nazi ard I could not believe how could an anti-Nazi in 1936 get a Rhcx:'les scholarship which required local etXJorsements am all kind of thin;Js. But Gennany was spotted with anti-Nazis all the time. 'lhrough him when I went back to Nazi Gennany I had sane, I guess I should call it superficial, but I had contact with the anti-Nazi m:wemerrt. so I stayed with Jewish families. 'Ihen, when I came back to the United states I joined those who were fighting for the u.s. to lower its immigratim barriers am admit Jewish refugees am it never lowered them. It let in well known names like Albert Einstein, etc. So the Jewish question was not to me a reason for supportin;J the war because I knew the American~ wasn't the least bit interested in the Jews, wasn't even tlyl.IXJ to save them.

Q: so it seened like hypocrisy that they went on a gran:i crusade related to the Jews. DaVid Dellin;Jer 4

A: Yes, absolutely. Also, when I was at Union alorq with Don Benedict ani Meredith Dallas and two others who I guess probably reqistered for the draft. But anyway Dal and Benedict ani I and one or two others n¥:JVed into Harlem in January of our first year there against the opposition of the seminary which threatened to expel us if we did it. so we did it arrJWa.Y and I think they decided that it would not be a good public relations to expel people for do~ that. What HenJ:y Sloane COffin, the president, said to us was that w were a reli<1ious cmmmity and we were break:irg the ocmm.mity by liv~ outside it. But to me it was a flawed oc:mmmity because it bas1.cally, although there were one or two blacks in the student bOdy, it had its back 'bJrned to Harlem and was cultiva~ middle and \lR)f!r middle class arxl wealthy.

Q: Am all the directors were fran Wall street?

A: Exactly. so we m:wed there but meanwhile I had taken ~ field work as an assistant minister at the J\1be Meloorial

Q: That 1 s vecy i.nterestin;. So that the fact that society was so conupt yoo. felt that obviously it had to protect itself by war? A: Yes, ard later they described this as the American century. Acblally to win dani.nance, worldwide dani.nance econanically.

Q: Inparal.ism. Certainly we became daninant after war. so you were right in that sense.

A: I should say that in september of 1936, while I was m the ship actually goin;J to E\ll:q;)e which prci:)ably was in June, the Spanish Civil war broke out.

Q: Hart did that affect you?

A: Well it affected me, I was traveli.xv with my college roommate who was gofn:l to cxme back. we were in Par1S at the erx1 of August <;Jetting ready for him to c:x:are back and I was to go to Geneva am meet sanebody else. we stayed by acx:ident in a Quaker hotel in Paris and at breakfast-it was kin::l of a family a~. It was just an inexpensive hotel that we happened to nm into. I knc::M oaming in at night we had to step over the bodies of peq>le sleepin:J in the streets, in the sidewalks, an::l in the entrance to the hotel. we came DaVid Dell:i.:rqer 5 in late at night as tW'O ycurg people. At breakfast the next mmirg there was an elderly, sweet old Quaker lady speakin;J very loudly about they couldn 1 t get anybody to go to spain as an ambulance driver. 'lhat they had ambulonces wa.iti.r.w:J to be delivered to spain and the first two t.i:lres that people had gone they had driven the ambulances aver the border and joined the army or sanethinq or they used them to brin;;J guns, sanethir:g of that kind and they had these ambuJ.anc:es wa.it.in;J for saoe true pacifist. so I immediately went up to their table because she was obviously spea.k.in:j far effect far a wider audience and I asked her ani said I 'WOUld volunteer. I asked her for the address and I went d.c:Mn to the address ani they haci m ambulances.

Q: '!hey had no a:ni:W.a.nces?

A: No, not ready to go ani they said CXID8 back next lll:.llth maybe. So I went CB'l to Geneva as planned. When I got to Geneva I was met at the train statiCB'l by my frierxl who was another Yale student who had a fellowship to study at OXfOJ:d.. He said, ''How' would you like to go to Spain?" I said, ''What?" I told him what happened to me. He had been on a trip to the soviet Union sponsored by the American student Union which was basically a pro- soviet group b.1t he was not particularly as far as I know'. Kiild of an :i.nterest.irg thing, he was the :roamnate of w. w. P.cstow', who later became the advisor to Kennedy and Johnsal. Q: Rost:ai1 was at Yale COllege. A: Yes, ani actually his roamnate had a fellowship in cambridge b.1t Walt P.cstow' had one in OXfOJ:d.. All th:r.'ough 1936 to 1937 I had dinner with Walt Rcstow every night in Oxford, P.cstow' at his college and mine. well we had been at the saJl'S c:xlllege at Yale ani he was nm:e radical than I was. Q: In those days?

A: In those days. I always thought he belOI'J3f!d to the YOI.l1'g Ccllml.1nists league. He had their line. He was anti-ca.pitalist. He used to berate me far l::leil'q so slOW' in a::.m:l.rq along ani especially for not believirg in the soviet Union.

Q: NOW' how' did you d.i.stin:juish be1:ween.-you were a socialist b.1t Wn.y did you feel that you didn't . • •

A: Well those were the very llllCh debated days about the • • • Q: United Front?

A: 'Well, not just that-that came la1:er--wll I think a1::Jout the Stalinist trials, were they fakes or were they capitalist propaganda, did they really t:a:ke place, etc.? I was puzzled and read everythi.rx:J I could b.1t I was always less of a centralist I guess. I didn't believe in big state bu:reaucracy.

Q: And you felt that the soviet was a b1.:1reaucracy? A: Yes, plus I learned-fran my readirq I was upset by the trials. I couldn't take a dogmatic position on them. David Dell:irger 6

Q: '!here were many people who left o:mrunism with the trials. A: Well when they famd about them, that •s right.

Q: Even at the time.

A: '!hen actually later when I was back at Dwight Hall I kept getti.n;J closer ani closer to-wel.l I worked with canmunists, people that I suspected as camnunists or I knew in sane cases, on a number of labor issues ani we picketed together. I thought that I was goin;J to en:i up joinin;J the carm.mist Party. I was invited to a connecticut conference, a state convention of the Camm.mist Party. I atterrled as an observer ani I thalght, well this is probably it. But instead of beirq attracted to it I fam::l all Jd.rds of behini-the-scenes manip.llation. I fCIIJRi axt through my frierrl who was in the party, that I knew was in the party ani invited me to aaoe, ani just the whole tone of the debates ani the way the leadership in the en:l danina:t.ed ani controlled ~-

Q: Dr:J you think it was because your mini, to the same reason that the organized church tm:ned you off? A: Yes, maybe it could be.

Q: '!bat you thought this is just another human institution that is manipll.atirq people?

A: Yes, but you see I always hesitate to say this without sayirq that a lot of wo.n:ierfu1 people joined the CCinrm.mist party. So I don • t mean it as arrJ reflection on them but I was just nmally offerded by the tone of the convention ani b¥ whatever close oantacts I had with party executives in New Haven ani m Olnnecticut. Also in Spain I •m sure-we "Went as official student obsel:vers. It had been arra:D;1ed on the trip to the Soviet Union that Bob Rosenbaum was on. So our contacts in Spain were with Camm.mist party heads. 'lhe contacts were not limited to them because we didn't allow them to be l:ut I got a mixed message fran them. I got sane wamin;J signals fran how they were. '!here were a lot of German camnunists who were in Spain. I forget whether through them also that I got a few contacts that I used later-anyway through them I began to have sane hesitations.

Q: Did you associate at all with the anarchist wirq because they were a part of •••

A: I became m:>re of an anarchist step by step but what haR;:lened was, again I can shew you, I can even give you a printout of a chapter in If¥ aut:cbiograpty lbere I've written about that. M:Jstly I haven't gottan to these years but I have flashed forward. Well Spain was in the context of what I am coverin;J J'DI. I mentioned that the CCimm.mists had a sector ani the TJ:ot:skyites had a sector ani the Anarchists had a sector. '!he camm.mists were sh.ootirx] at the TJ:ot:skyites ani the Trotskyites were shoatirg at the camnunists. When our car made a wrorg tum an::l went into the Anarchist sector we met another blast of gunfire ani the car backed up. Q: ' You never went to the Anarchist section then? David Dellirger 7

A: No, :but 'When I went to Madrid we traveled, Bc:b arxl I, alme down a.t.ol1'ld the lines to Valencia I quess it was ani up to Madrid. We stayed t:heJ:e in a secticm where it was pretty 1l'llCh students ani peasants in what was an old rx::bleman' s house Which was where we stayed. It had. :been. tm:n.ed. into a ~ university. I wa.lld have to say that probably there was sane Ana.rctrlst influence-but no, I never got into the Anarchist separatist sector. Q: '!bat's very i.nteJ:estinq. A: I'll tell you also aJ:x:ut dilllusionirr;J experiences, it's .oanin.:J back to me. When I got out of Spain I wrote sane articles ani actually if I remember cor.rectly they were published in the st. IDuis Post:\~tch. I could look them up scmetime. Because cne of my Yale Classma worked for the st. I.cuis Post ani I sent them to him. I don't know if I ever saw them but he2itleast told me they were published. Maybe he sent them to me, I don't :remember. Blt artjWay I took them to a I.a.ndon paper ani sarebody who worked for the paper identified himself as a o.:am.mist to me. He. came out ard we had private c::onversaticm ani he explained to me Wb:y he didn't think they ought to be plblished. Because even though it was pro, the loyalists, an::l anti-Franco I must have said saueth.i.rg ahcut 'What he thc:.ught wasn't party line. But he said what I said was oor:r:ect but he d.idn•t think it was a good. pmlic policy to have it known.

Q: so to run dot.m the party in any way he wasn •t about to allow you to do that? '!hat experience 'WCW.d be very disillusiorrl.n; for a yourg :man. A: Ch it was, it was very disillusionirr;J to a. You knew', what qoes on there? '!hen I get into Oxford where there had :been. the Oxford l110Yel1lel1t, ''we will not fight for Jd.rJ:J or COW'ltl:y." that was c::tlan;Ji:rg When I was there, but I did :belor:g to the Oxford university Pacifist Association. In fact I think I might have helped form it because thirqs were in a transitia'Jal stage. 'lbe OXford Pledqe Group had disband.ed.

Q: Well by that time many :people in Englan::l realized that they were into it an::l thexe was no way of not fighti:rg Hitler. A: Exactly, so that was the tre:nd but we did have the Oxford university Pacifist Association. If it already existed I joined it, ani I was an officer of it, I know. We had :ee:rt:ram Russell CCI'II8 in and speak.

Q: were you i1lp::essed with the level. of pacifism thexe or did you think it was saDE!!What weak in terms of a t:heonrtical basis? I mean there is pacifism. ani pacifism.

A: Ch I Ul'X3e:rstard. 'l'o this day, I don't mean to be self-righteous aJ:x:lut it, but I believe that the pacifist 1llOV8Il'B1t all too often concant:rates too 1l'llCh cm waapcns and avert war ard ignores or just pays lip service to the econanic violence of society ani of oc::rupetitive capitalism., etc. But basically pacifism. does not make econanic violence a major concern. 8

Q: Right. or racism or any of those t:hiD;Js where the violence is CCilp.t"EESSed em groups of people? A: Yes, right. I often quote saaebody who later became a close frieni, the poet :Kenneth Patchen, who wrote of the anti-war m::wement of his day. "''be trouble is they want to get rid of war without getti.n;J rid of the causes of war."

Q: Ycu. were CIC.I'Din;J to that even in those days?

A: Well, after all, I was radicalized by the depr:essicm plus by the New Test:amlmt and the Acts of the Apostles where· they sold all their worldly goods.

Q: Now Why were you radicaliZed by the depressiem? Ycu. came fran a comfortable family. A: Well, thanks a lot. I had broken with that whole oon.oept, that whole oon.oept offerded me of try.i.r~J to pUe up ma.terial goods and exclude people like JJ.r:i qirl frieni Rena, because she was poor and of the wn:n:J etJmic group, etc.

Q:, so it was that initial disUlusioumen:t experienc:le abalt social classes?

A: Yes, and then I stayed in public high school. My parents wanted me to go off to private school.

Q: 'lb.ey did? Ycu. said no?

A: Yes, and I stayed in public high sdlool and I was in stuC1ent sports. All the good athletes, 90 percent of them were poor, well because 90 percent of the people 1n· the school were poor anyway. Q: But you did go to Yale?

A: But I did_ cp to Yale, yes. When JJ.r:i autabiognq:by is Olt, I've just been li!Drld.:rq em a chapter, "SO how cane I went to Yale." Q: You haven't yet quite explained. that?

A: No, I haven't. Well I was naive. I DEan I don't want to soun:i :nm-e d.evelopec.i than I was. My inpJlses were What I •ve been talk.ing about but t.h.e:te were biq qaps in JJ.r:i knowledge and was much more advanced on a personal level than em a political level.

Q: Hew' c:.xJU.l.d you not be?

A: Yes, right, but unlike Walt Rcstow, who in my view jUllpE!d right over the perscnal, who was always very aggressive and daninee:ring. Way back as a sophc:m':>re but prd:lably began sane in the freshman year, as a sqh::m::Jre when he was try.i.n'J to gat me to E!Dibraoe basically CCI.1ImUnist dogma, whether he knew it was that or called it that, I do nat kn::M. But the thin;J that offan:led me was that there were no human bein;Js in it, it was all m:wi.n; aroun:i pawns and manipulati.n; fran the David Dellirqer 9

'tq) dc:M1 ani doin.:J what was good for the people bit the people weren't participatin.:J.

Q: so whatever you call it you were offen:led by people that were manip:llatin.:J other human bein;Js in a social set:tirq? A: Right, whereas I was upset because my good friends were bein:] excluded or because I knew 100re people Who didn •t have enough to eat. Q: Arrl that is the radicalizin:J experience, isn •t it? A: Right.

Q: Wherever you have it occur. certainly for Ire to interview poor wc:mm who are beirq forced to bear children ani have doctors ani lawyers in my church say, ''Well, those people shc:ul.d :kna.rl better than to get pregnant ani that it's too bad for them. we•ve got OJr laws ani they can take care of it another way."

A: Yes, ani the people in my society as I was growirg up, you k:now, who were tellin;J me that I could go places and I shc:ul.dn 't get distracted, were sayirg that thaJgh the depression struck overnight like six million people or whatever short period lost their jobs-they were lazy.

Q: Yes, it was their fault. In a sense that's a justification as to why I have m::ney ani they don't •

. A: You're thrifty ani you save it ani you "WOrk hard.

Q: so even at that age, you say even in high school you were beginnin:J to see that ani your pacifism grew out of that. A: well it was related to that fran the beginnirr;J, you see. I never separated pacifism fran econanic radicalism. Q: so the econanic radicalism was always there as a part of you? (tape stopped) So that econanic radicalism is what made you It¥:JVe over to Harlem an:i react against Union seminaJ:y. It was so structured ani so establishnent, a continuation of Yale ani that kird of t:hi.rq? Yale boys went to union seminal:y ani became ministers in wealthy Presbyterian churches.

A: Actually when I went to seminaJ:y I wasn't at all convinced that I was goin;J to be a minister. Q: Why did you go to seminaJ:y?

A: Because I wanted to probe, I wanted to explore ani~ ani un:ierst:arrl liDre alxJut the New Testament about the early Cllristian c::trurch, the histoey of the radicals within, you :know I don't mean to put it exclusively, bit I wanted to k:now nme about the whole Cllristian tradition.

Q: were you disillusioned with Neibuhr by that tilne? David Dellirqer 10

A: Well I was 1:hinkin;J when I was disillusioned with him. It was before I got to union but the early Neibuhr might have influenced me to think about socialism l:ut also there were other, union had a reputation for activism ani radicallism..

Q: Yes, they did an:i actually your class certainly was radical. When you finally got there you fom:l people who were mcn:e radical than you maybe fam:i at Dwight Hall.

A: I don't krlow about that.

Q: Ch, there were sane Dwight Hall radicals?

A: Yes, there were. Actually like on the questionnaire or sw:vey you sent you ask about people. Well I mentioned Norman 'Ihanas ani :Reinhold Neibuhr. E. Faye Camiiell was a graduate, lag term graduate secretaiy. He was very quiet am he wasn •t normally what you'd call charismatic, hit he was 111¥ kim of person an:i he was very fi.J:m an:i intelligent about his pacJ.fism.

Q: Did it also ioolude a socialism? (tape stq:ped)

A: Well of CXJUrSe GarXIhi was alive am. active an:i that was a major influence in Dri' pacifism. I very early oanbined GarXIhi an:i Olristianity. Nol:mlly I don't even call myself a Olristian today. I still have the same belief in the liv:iJ'g Jesus and all that I had durirr;J those years, but in college a lot of whatever other reservations I had about the clnlrd'l came out. I mean the idea that there is only cna true way, the trusted way, an:i only one true religion ani only one true •••

Q: 'Ihe narrowness of ani the intolerance of a religion?

A: 'Ihe religious inperialism of it. Of course GalXfhi was sanebody who was very helpful to me in ~ a pacifist rut also in-I don •t lcnow if I have had a t.ernency to be a nar:t'C7.\f Olristian in that sense.

Q: But he was IOOre universal • • •

A: Exactly. well also, fran thOse days I was qoi.rg to say there was a grcup-I don't even knew what it was-there was a lot of exposure of arms sales, of the aonuption of tk>rld War !--Merchants of death, the anns merchants. '!here was a very superficial guy by the name, I hope I have his name right, Bruce Bartat, who wrked for an advertisi.rg agercy. 'Ihey p.tt a series of ads of people marchirg ani of all the ones who had been killed and heM lon;r it wcul.d take them to pass the reviewin:J starrl.

Q: An1 you were inpressed with that?

A: I was .iJqpressed by that. 'Ihen there was also a guy by the name of Kirby Paqe who was a Christian pacifist who came to Yale to Orlight Hall every year.

Q: Very much an internationalist in teJ:ms of his pacifism. David Dellin;Jer 11

A: Right. '!here wt:W.d be a group of us Who wculd have lunch with him or supper.

Q: So you had a lot of representatives fran the intellectual circles of America in those days oc::min;J through Yale?

A: '!here was a historian at Yale, Hany Rudin. Q: was he also a pacifist?

A: I dan •t knc:w if he was a pacifist but he was very realistic about intemational intrigue ani the false idealism of goin:J to war. I never sbx'lied with him but I knew hiln imepeniently. He was a faculty member. one of my gocd friems was one of his pr:ime students ani so we were frierds ani would eat toqether fran time to time. Finally, ani one that I thought of ani I've been writirg abalt this :in my autobiography about Pierre von Passen, a Illtch historian ••• Q: What did he write? A: I can't tell you the name but what I tell :in my autobiography is a stoey that he told about hatl one Qlristmas :in the trenches in World war I sanebody on one side began to play "Silent Night" with a t::runprt. Sanebody picked it up on the other side ani began to si.rg and then both sides sar¥'J. 'lhen they called to each other ani they clil'Dbed out of the tretx::hes ani they met in the middle ani fraternized. ~ went back ani the next day they started killi.rg each other. But 1t was saoethin;J ver.y iltpressive to ma. Q: Did you feel that your pacifism then like Gamh.i was a method for overccaninJ war? A: Yes, absolutely. You see the kirxi of pacifism that I've always critcized is the "I won't fight." '!hat's why when it came to not registeri.rg you see I was exenpt as a divinity student. All I had to do was sign my name on the registration. But that was like evadirr;J respawiblity. one of the reasons I didn't want to be a minister was because a miidster was set aside fran other pecple. '!hey wtW.d take care of the mrality for society am meanwhile society wtJU1d have gone on, doq eat doq.

Q: so you wanted to get in ani charge that society? A: d'large it and stop the wars. one other th.in; that I see fran nw German experience which I remember is, I had sane pretty realistic th.oughts. I was tJ:yi.rg to be correctly JOOdest abc:ut my anti-Nazi contacts. I •m sure it was sanet'llhat limited but when I think about it through my frierd Horst I think his name was, the German Rhodes SCholar, I had same pretty good contacts in there. I remember tal.1d.ng with people ani sharin:J their same anti-imperialist, anti-narrow nationalism point of view. '!hey are sayi.rg to me that the -worst-''We have to do it ourselves," quote and unquote. '!hat's a direct quote, ''We have to do it ourselves," that is overthrow Hitler ourse1ves. '!he worst thi.rg that oould ha];:pen waud be for the hated allies who had tried after World War I to grird Gennany's face in the nud, for them to be the ones to overthrow Hitler would be the worst thi.rg possible David Dell.irger 12 for the developnent of Gennany. SO I had it oaning at me fran all sides. I was lucky encugh to have that experieooe ani to be twenty-five years old When the draft came along. SO I was never "telqpted by World War II. Cb, I started to say in Spain I was terr¢ed in Spain when I was in Madrid stayi.rg in this student, this pq:ular W'liversity. so when FrancXls' troops were adva.J:lcin1 arxi they -were like a mile axtside Madrid arxi it was ·an ~ ani everylx:dy was leavil'q ard pickin:1 up their gm1S ani 90l.D'J, ani I was very t.enpted at that point to pick up a gun ani go with them. Q: Why didn •t yw? A: well, I guess nrt pacifism, I'd had sane disillusionin;;J experiences with not only the people that were goirq out ani goirq to be be killed but with the people who were n.nmirg that side. Q: So you said that together with the idealism also that disillusiornnent made you say, "I guess I'm not goirg to get involved."

A: Also by the way a book that was very helpful to me that I had read that summer. It was by a Dutch anarchist, Bartholeme deLigt, called well the French version that I read was, 11l?our Vancre Son Violence, 11 to cc::rquer without violence.

Q: so a nonviolent method • • •

A: El.tt an anarchist who gave, if I :te111emtler correctly, a lot of historical exanples of idealistic people who had picked up arms to overthrc:w their oppressors ani they er¥ied up becanirg the qpressor. It was later p.Jblished in this COW'ltry called, "War Against Violence, 11 which was a little different than the French title. Q: Would ycu also think in those days that you were thin1dn:.J about the revolution as well? In other words people that take up revolution in order to chan;le the eoonanic structure erd up being the oppressors? A: Yes, ani that was certainly, if I~ correctly, Bart:holeme deLigt who laid that out. By the way I will read this transcript because it will all relate to my aut:d:>iograJ;tty. El.tt I never did read the Clle at the L.B.J. center.

Q: Iet • s go back to Newark. All of these influences that played on you, your mind had worked, yw'd talked to all of these people ani then you nx:wed into Harlem in order to prove your solidarity with the poor people.

A: Right am to qet to knc7tl them. Q: JUst to get to know them as human beirqs? A: Right, but both of those, definitely.

Q: 'Ihe witness ani the sense of .cx:mrunity. '!hen you went over to Newark. David Dellin:'Jer 13

A: Yes, I was l\10rkirr;;J there two days or three days a week even While I was liv.irg in Harlem. My field work was in Newark.

Q: And then they said over there, ''Why don't you brirg your frienas?" A: No, what they did is, we 1«>rksd. out a l:uiqet where they paid me to be the director an:i I could hire either one or two staff pecple, whan I hired were blacks fran the neighborhood but we figured. cut that my frienas an:i I could all live on my sal.aJ.y.

Q: '!bat was neat. So that was~ you got your Ashram? (tape stq:ped) You had been livirg togat:her but When you were in Harlem there was m a::m1oan discipline. A: Well we shared. our resources. Q: You did share your resources in Harlem?

A: Well, I don't know if we shared eveeyt:hin;J but it was prci:lably in aoex>rdance to ability.

Q: You sat down am aqreed. that this was what you wanted to do?

A: It was just the only practical wa:y in terms of l'lclw DlClh llDl'leY we had, etc.

Q: At that place it was H'cWa.1:d Spragg? A: No, lia.tlard. was one of the nan-reqisterants. It was Don Benedict, Meredith Dallas an:i SCJJEbody by the 1"..allB of Tim Glasser, I think. Now Dick Wichlei 't«W.dn 1t be inte:rV'iewed by you? Q: He said he didn't want to be interviewed.

A: See I can't xremember. It's possible he was part of the Harlem t.hirq but I don't X&IIISIIiber too well.

Q: B.1t then you went over to Newark. A: It was Berrlict an:i Dallas ard actually their two wanen friends. I think my fiance might have joined us. I know she did eventually. I am not sure whether it was that first S\lllll.'ler. Yes, it was.

Ern of Side one, Tape One

Q: We were ta1Jd.r.g about DAigh:t Bradley ard how' he came down to solve this race prd)lem. [at Jobe Qmrch in NEfl18.rk]

A: Because he was Social Action executive for the Q:)rg:tegational c:h.u:rches that IS why they calleci him in.

Q: tllo brought him in? David Dellin;Jer 14

A: Well probably the minister SIJiiREIS'tEd it, but the minister ani I were good friems ani worked together well. I'm sure we all agreed that was the t:hirg to do.

Q: Because the ~tion had votei that or the executive oamnittee or whatever had said no lllixilg of races after puberty. A: so Dwight came out am actually he explained to the trustees how they should be proud of the church. '!his was a very advanced program. It had been written up the churoh publications and it was really good. You knc:M, that "Wel'lt on for a while. 'Ihen a Mr. Harrison, who was chainnan of the boal:d of trustees, am I can give you his direct quote, he said, "You may be right, Mr. Bradley. But I'm chainnan of the board of trustees and I have the note for twenty thCAlsand dollars payable on demani. If this program continues I •m callirg in that note tatDrJ:ow ll'Omirq. 11 Fran then on Mr. Bradley, who had been addressi:n;J himself to the trustees addressed hiltaelf to us. It was a qood progza:m, he was very proud of it. we were~ ycurq idealists but one had to be practical abait these thi.n:Js, so we really should agree to the prqx:&al. 'lhat • s just an::rther typical kini of aOCCillll¥:ldation of the bureaucrat. SO I resigned as assistant minister. Q: At that time?

A: I don 1t know if I did it then or the next day or whatever. We moved the prog:t:am out of the church and tried to continue it as best w could at the house or we got various other facilities. Actually very shortly we rented a farm in Olester, New Jersey am a lot of people flooded into that project.

Q: '!here was a lot of idealism there fran Yale an:i fran union.

A: Yes ani fran aroiJl'Xi the country. I •m thi.nJd.rq of a guy by the name of Robin Rae, who was an agricultural expert, ani he was housed in the farm. In other wo:t:ds we actually rented a farm, old Elmnons farm we called it. I guess we rented it fran sanebody by the name of Elnn'a'ls or scmethi.ni, I don •t know, ani so w took kids out there.

Q: Kind of a fresh air farm?

A: Fresh air, yes, week.en:m ani ·stay for a week ani adults, families left for vacations.

Q: Meanwhile canyirg on yrur co•••a:n discipline of the Ashram? Who named it Ashram?

A: We didn't call it Ashram. We calle:l it Newark Olristian COlony. Arol.lrrl that time two Olristian ministers 'Were expelled fran Irxiia for refusing to take an oath of loyalty. I'm tcying to think what the exact tel:lns were but they were :removed, either expelled fran India by the British, l::ut I think the church oollaborate:i. 'lha.t was Jay Holmes Smith who established an Ashram in Harlan called the Harlan Ashram. (tape stopped)

Q: we were ta1Jd.rg about the New Christian OJlony was the original name and then Jay Holmes Smith came in ani started a Harlem Ashram. David Dellirger 15

A: we had back ani forth with them. DJrirg this period, by the way, we were in close contact with them but also with the catholic WOrker. Q: Did you knc:M Dorothy Day?

A: Ch yes, very well, we became very close frierrls. I can •t remember when we first met her. Whether I went to catholic Worker '\\ben I was in union.

Q: It must have been that period sanetilne. A: Did you knc:M .Al't'm:m. Hermessy at all? Q: No.

A: 'Ihe t.llirq is that when I refused to register for the draft, all the established pastors leaders ani church disagreed but one of the two adults, three adults ••• (tape st:qp;ld) 'Ihe last one was Ammon Hennessy, I didn't know him. I don't know how' soon I leamed it but he was a World war I objector who had spent time in Atlanta prison along with Eugene Victor Debs. He worked as a migrant fann laborer ani when he heard about it ani read about it in the papers, there was a lot of plblicity about our refusal to register. He wrote us a letter of support. I didn't get to know him then but sanetilne later we did sane joint activities, but eventually he became converted by Dorothy oay to catholicism ani he wrote a book called, 11Al.rtcbiography Of catholic Anarchist. II

Q: I bet that's a fascinatirg book.

A: Yes, it is ani we actually plblished it or printed it at our Glen Gal::dner, New Jersey intentional oammmity where we had a printin:J ani p.lblishin;J business. He came ani lived with us while we were doirg it.

Q: But that was later on? A: '!bat was later on.

Q: So that's one oormection with the catholic WOrker.

A: Well we had been with Dorothy long before that. Actually our fourth child was bom at the catholic Worker fann in staten Islani because I delivered the last three kids. Dorothy was out visit~ us when Elizabeth was pregnant with our fa.ttth child, Janie. She BaJ..d, "Oh camra, 11 that's her dau.ghter. 11camra just gave birth as you know. We set up a special birth.irg roan for her on the fann ani if you '11 care ani stay with us you can have it there. '!here was a wanan who was a practical rrurse who helped with the delivery, so she would be there for a backup in case Dave needs any help. 11

Q: '!hat's a fascina~ connection, D!Ma.

A: So we lived there for a month or more while we 'were havirg that child. 16

Q: so those Oiltholic Workal: connections go back a lCDJ ways.

A: Yes, but what made me think of it was cut of the Newark Olristian COlony, 'We had connections with other radicals in New York. ·

Q: '!hat's hoW' you got the l1a'IDI! Ashram, or was it?

A: well Jay L Smith invented, they started callin; us the Newark Ashram, I think -we kind of, I don 1t want to say l:xJllght it, but we all still referred to Cll.l:rSelves as the Newark

Q: I see. New that wasn't a pacifist Ashram though. A: Yes.

Q: Oh. it was as the Newark Ashram was also. A: Oh. yes.

Q: :aut he had l:leen expelled f:rcm Irdia for sare sort of non-violent. A: well for the support of Ga.rdrl is what it~ to. I think there was sc:met.llirJ'J that he was supposed. to sign ani he d.idn 't sign it. '!here wre two of them, Ralph '.l'en'plin was the other one. He taught in Will:lllrforoe university in Ohio. I think they are both dead 1'1011· I krx::M Ralph is.

Q: Now did they have discipline at their Ashram if it was set up like a Gan::nrl nr::x:lel • • • A: It was mch more rigid I -would say. Q: '!hat's what I was goi.n:J to say, a :teal st.n:lcb.:rrad discipline in worki.ng' ani meditation ani the whole bit.

A: OUrs was very infm:mal but c::bviously we all did liiiU'1Ual labor ara.m.:1 the place. Like the catholic Worker, I don't knew if this began the first SUitiDer, it prObably did. Oh. yes, I •m. sure it did because it actually began in aJr cc:IJI1Ime in Harlem that -we took in peq:Ue who were haueless.

Q: '!bat's llibat I understood. '!bat was a witness to the fact that all people were bJ:ot:hers ani sisters? A: Right.

Q: And even the bums ought to have a place. A: Like I say in Itr:f autobiography, nr:1 silver flute was stolen. I forget in which one but I think prObably in Harlem, m.a~ not. I talk aboiJ:t. lll.lSic in me there. I cannot :r:ememl:ler exactly but the idea was that I wasn •t angry at the person who took it but I was angry with the society that provided him with the drug habit ani me with a silver flute. (tape stopped) :oavid Delli.rqer 17

Q: I'd be int.erested in hav:ln:J you say a little bit about h.ow' you put together that original statement of pacifism. Where was that p.rt tcget:her at the Ashram or at the center?

A: ' '1he a:1e where we refused to :register?

Q: Yes, and the preface. 'lhere was lot of discussion about it. was that done as a part of • • • A: Gosh, I've got to get ahold of this. Q: Do you want a a:pfl A: Yes.

Q: I'd be happy to mail it to you.

A: Oh, I :t1\illEDt)er, oh James Gliere, he was a ncn-:registrant, originally, of course he wasn't a:1e of the • • •

Q: What was it, twelve of th.em.? '1he p;r::essure got to th.em. and they couldn't go with it?

A: But James Gliere, I forget What I called him, sat'Et:llirq else. Glasser, I think. James Gliere was at the Harlem canmune with us. Well I renanber go:in:J aver this mostly in :roans at union Seminary. Q: Yes, because scme of these people we:r:e really part of, what was it called, the SOCialist Club or that group that :met to discuss socialism that never came .cut to your center. Well that was ld.rd of like Howard. Spragg' was a part of that group. A: Probably, I don't knc::lw if a lot of the union people came cut to the center or not. I doubt it. But it's int:eresti:D1 to see the first three names are Dallas, Benedict and Dallin;Jer.

Q: You don't remember writ:in:J a first draft of that? A: I don't remember h.ow' we did it J:::ut I can tell you it came out of those t:h.ree. Well I could be Wl:'OI'q, J:::ut I believe that we were the initiators of it and then w went to people. Q: You gathered th.em. together into that. A: I don't see Bill Icvell here.

Q: He IS there.

A: He went to jail with us. see, he was the only ate I felt guilty about bec:a.nse he originally had said m. At least two, myself and either Dall or Don, or maybe both, w decided that after so many people bad signed and the last t:hi.n; that he CllJ!Jht to at least knc::lw that. so w "WOke him up at night and I remember w said to him, 'ttnlem will be m a:1e put any pressure on you. 11 Q: But you wake him up at night? David Dellin;Jer 18

A: But we woke him up at night. We think you aJght to know that now ani we gave him the list of signatures. 'lhat' s why I was loold.n;J for his name to be at the end here. But ma~ this was the end of the original thi1'J;J. ArrjWay he decided to SJ.gll ani I didn 1t feel guilty about him goixq to jail because there was plenty of pressure ani twelve of the twenty dlq:pad out. I haven't seen that for years ani I made sane invidious refe%"el'laa to it in a1e of trri books. I said the idea was that it was a highly academ:i c • • •

Q: WOUldn't you expect that?

A: Yes. I drew a contrast between that ard the statement I wrote before I went to prisal in 1943 which I think I repl:Oduced in Whatever book that was.

Q: '!hat was the seoon:i sentence when you had gone back to the CCilllliiJl'lity?

A: Yes.

Q: SO it was p.It together, you went to the trial, you were carted off to the west street Jail or wherever it was. '!hen were there for six weeks ard then were taken up by that kookie warden that took you up ani went through all those experien:::es. What do you remember about that? What 1 s the feelixq tone of that experience for you?

A: What I rmemh=>.r was bein:J embarrassed in the cnJrtroam by the lawyer who made us soun:i like Jesus Olrist, as saints ahead of our time. He was a Wall street lawyer, I dan •t know who arrarqed for hiln or anytl'lirq, he was a nice guy.

Q: 'lhis was your lawyer? In other words he was 1IBkirg you out so that maybe you wt:W.dn •t get serrt:er.Jes?

A: Yes, ard I don't :remeniJer specifically but it seems like the judge praised us as fine youn;;r men.

Q: Yes, he did. I have a statement fran the judqe here. I'll give it to you when we get through. But you rerremher beirg embarrassed by that?

A: I was embarrassed, yes, by both. '!hen we were ushered, the door closed to separate the courtroan fran outside, ard sane guy grabbed me and threw me up against the wall an:i said, "You belon:J to us new mther :fucker," or scmethirg like that. Q: Whatever they said in those days?

A: Yes. SO we went fran beirg heroes to beirg criminals. But we were out of sight of the spectators an:i all of whan were very laudatory, even the prosecutor prc::bably said nice ~ about us. Q: But that wasn •t the same t:hin;J that you had at union Seminal:y. 'lhere you had a lot of negative pressure. David Delli.rqer 19

A: At union SeminaJ:y the minute we anncunoed we weren't qoirq register, the president of the seminaey expelled us ani told us to go hane. we decided not to. '!bat we should, ~Y because we ultimately wanted to be a group an:i partly 1.t was a Christian act that we were tald.rg ani should be identifled with the seminal:y. Q: But you've had that experience after that several times, haven't you?

A: Yes, I have. But the main t:l'lirq was that there was a deluge of peace leaders who descended on the seminary to convince us l'lcM Wl:'OD3' we were.

Q: '!hat must have been an exceec1in;Jly disillusiornnent?

A: It was disillusionin;J ani Cl'l8 of them was Clarence Pickett, the beloved secretary of • • • [American Frien::ls service Camnittee]

Q: ArXl he thought you shouldn't do it?

A: He thought it was a diagraoe to the movement. '!hey had lobbied for a law am they had adlieved the exemption and we would embaJ:rass them.

Q: I see, it would be like sane radical -wanen when they got the right to vote they wanted nm-e rights?

A: Exactly ard they offered me a position as director of one of the civilian p.lblic sezvioe carrps that were goin:J to be set up. we said we dal •t want to go off into the woods ani rake leaves when we are workil'q in the intercity situation, etc. Clarence Pickett ani other Quakers tried to tell us the civilian p.lblic service canp would become Gardlian centers like Ashrams. '1here would be pilot projects ard we'd dsnalstrate the validity of the pacifist position. we wanted a pacifisim as you said earlier, one to overoane the world • • o Q: 'lha.t' s fascinatin;J.

A: So Roger Baldwin, who had been a WOrld war I objector am had written I guess an autobiography, sauethin;J which had been very influential to me abJut his experiences, etc., he came ard cu:gued with us that t.hi.rqs had cl'lan]ed.

Q: Do you think that yest.eroay' s radicals are today •s o o •

A: Obviously for sane, l::ut the t:hirq is that the three people or four people, there were four of them but the three men who 131JR:X>rted us were all "N:>rld war I objectors. Julius Aesctlal, who lived in Brooklyn, ani he ard his wife Esther fonned sanet:hin;J called Frierds ani Faiidlies of c.o.s. He himself when the age came for him to register refused again. Evan 'IhaDas, Norman 'lhanas' brother, who was a doctor ani later became-he definitely wasn't ,then but later became chairman of the war Resisters league. :a:rt the war Resisters Isague arxl the Fellowship of Reconciliation did not SUR:X>rt us even o o • Divid Dellin;Jer 20

Q: Even the war Resisters didn't do it? Althcu;;rh they were secular ani not connected with the churdles?

A: But scmehcM there was 1\'0X'e SIJRX)rt there. I switched loyalties fran the FOR to the WRL I think at that time. 'Well I guess it must have been, I guess sane people did. Oh yes, Jessie wallace HUen, who was one of the fOUl'Xiers of the league, ani Francis Witllersp:xxl, another fourder of the league, ani the early suffragettes, they S\lR)Orl:ed us. But Abe Kauffman, who was the executive secretacy, ran the thin:J was apoplectic against us. Q: You divided the radical camm.mity. A:. . Yes, al:Jsolutely. Even A. J. Muste who everybody thinks of as a • Q: 'lhink of hiln as the llWJSt radical of radicals.

A: Yes, ani he gave us no~· Iater 'When his age <;JrQJP came to register he did not register hllnself I but he did not SUR;IOrt us. I mean rDI1 whenever his time came was probably a couple of year later, so maybe we had an influence em him, who knows. But I have to say A. J. was one of the early people who had encouraqed m:t pacifism. I worked closely with him, I was em the executive camnittee of the FOR ani he was the executive director. Q: In what years 1937 to 1939?

A: Well I don't know when it began, but certainly when I nrwed to New York 1939 to 1940. I certainly did then. '1hey had an office em 2020 Broadway ani I used to go over there, etc.

Q: What gave you the m:st :flm abait m:ganizirg in these days? Why did you do it?

A: Well the th:i.rq is, I mean I did it as a natural impllse of brothel:hood ani sisteJ:hood like you say. But we got a tremen::lous kick out of "WOrkirg with the kids in Newark. I was tellirg these two girls, we went aver to North Dm\rille [VeniDllt] last night for scmet.hing ani w had to stop while sane cows crossed the road. I was kiddirv;J Tanya, I was say.in), ''Well here we are in TilDes Square, the cows are crossing the road. 11 sane of that made me think about the first trip we took in a bus out to the Newark Cllristian COlony out to the old El11m::rlS fann, the first busload. we got part way there ani all of a Sl..:ld:ien-I can even remember her name, a girl named Maggie DeReimer. She suddenly was at the wirxiow. She said, 110h, a CCM. 11 I thought the bJs was goirr:J to get ti~ aver with the staitpde, evetybody ran to the win:iow to see the CCM. '!hey had never seen a CCM. Even before that when I was still the first year going to Uniem, ~ other 1:hin:Js I m:gani.zed a baseabl.l team, you know, a boys' team. I foJ:qet the erxi of the seascm or scmet.hing I wanted to take them Cl'l this little treat. I asked them Where they wanted to go an:1 I fozqet if I said scmet.hing like, ''Would you like to go to New York?" '!hey had never been to New York City. By J'lOrl I take it for granted. I urx3erstani that, but at the time it was c.penirg m:t eyes to sane David Delli:rger 21 ll'Dre. But just to see the joy in those kid's faces When they wre out in the count::ry' or When they played baseball.

Q: '!hat •s what society shculd be?

A: or to hear that choir or we had these little plays Il!ll organized for the kids and see them act.i.ng. It was just the joy of seeir:q them cane alive.

Q: Well haven't you mjssed that in your life as you've gone alonq bec:ause you didn't stay in the dmrch finally? A: wen, remember llilat we wre doirq by the time there was an "ooh." for the caw that was altside the dlurch. 'lhe dmrch wasn't the aqency. When I went to tJnia1. Seminal:y I said I wanted a field work job in that p:xn" ocmm.mity of 'WCr1d..ng class dmrch, D:JW this may shock you, it s'hoc:ked me. It's hard for me to believe today. But union Semi:naJ:y wanted me to 'WOrk in a settlement house. I said, "No, it's not a settlement house. I want it to be in reliqicus work. I want it to be in a chui.'dl, in a p:xn" ocmmmity. '' '!hey did not have art:/ contact with art:/ wor1d.:ng class church. I located, I don't know' how, but I asked around varicus people that I knew, I located this dlurch in Newark myself and got the field w::>rk director to ~ it even thol:.lgh. it wasn't an their list. SO this was not church that was doing" it for me, it was New Testament Christianity.

Q: Reach.i:rq out to htme:n bein;Js, where they are.

A: But it •s true that I at a certain ];X)int after my seccni jail sentence-an:i let's see Elizabeth an::l I have trouble being" sure how lonq--but at least a year maybe a year an::l a half or two years, while still living" in Newark we decjded to liDVe out arxi establish an intentional carm.mity. '.lbe regzet was to be leaving" the people in the ghetto. But what we tried to do was tey and CXl11bine to make contact. AcbJally the 37 Wright street house, I dan1t know' if D::ln knows this because by then be was qcme elsewhe:re, w gave the house to a black family that lived acr:ass the street, the Beve:rlys. Eventually another black ocuple that lived across the sb:eet and their two c:irlldran ncved out and joined our intart:.ional OCI'llll.ttdty. SO we maintained ties back and forth. Which as always ~ gradually qot a little thimer but acbJ.ally the black family fran the carmmity wre there for quite a few years.

Q: so that intentional carm.mity that you started was where? A: It was in Glen Gardiner, New· Jersey, which was in Htlnt.ington county, fifty-three miles west of New York City.

Q: And how lonq 'Were you in that intentional ca.mmmity?

A: We actually livec.i there until september 1968.

Q: until after that Demcx::ra.tic ClOl'M!I'ltion?

A: Meanwhile vigilantes who I think were gcvemment, they were fran outside the area, I think they were government agents or like .p.iban David Dellb'qer 22 refugees or sanethi.n;J of that 1dn:i which the CIA worked through arx1 with. '!hey destroyed cur printin; equipoent which took away the main part of cur incane. My wife lost her tea~ job because members of the board objected to what -we were doi.rq ani were O'Jl'lStantly in the news.

Q: :art that hadn't happened all the tilDe yoo. had been able to firxi a place for •••

A: 'lhat happened gradually. By the time I write about it I have to get the dates straight, which I have ways of finiin;J out. Like we were also sent banbs in the mail, only one of which got through the post office. Two of them exploded in the post office. sanelx:dy was cri};'Pled for life, JMimed. Several people were injured. But the way I :know about is that it had to be before the Dencx:a:atic cawentia1 because we m:wed out aftm'wards. I received a au:'istmas presmlt in the mail, a package wrapped in brcMn paper. 'lhe outside address said P.C. arxi then it gave an address of the peace cxmn.ittee in New York. It was the coalition camnittee which I would co-chair or oo-coordinate made me suspicious. P .c. , yoo. know, arx1 so I took the brown paper off ani it was bottle of Johnny walker Red I..abel scotch which I actually did drink. SO sanel:lody knew that was the drink I liked. I don't think we could ever affcm:i or brught arr:1 and had it at hans but when I was out •••

Q: SO sanebody who knew yoo. is what yoo. are sayirq?

A: or knew about me, yes. so I sat there. I'll never foJ:qet Irrf oldest san that was heme fran college said, "Look at the old man savor~ his Whiskey before he opens it." I was afraid to tell hiln Why or all that was goilq through Irrf mind was, "Why would it be K:'?" Anyway what I did is I p.llled the battan off, opened it a little bit arx1 I saw a black powder arxl wires. so I said to Patch, JJri oldest son, "cane here arx1 oc:are with me." All rtt:i kids were there incll.ldin;J actually lfl:i first granichild. so that means that she was boJ:n in 1967, so it was probably Deoentler of 1967. SO I took it out an:i pit it in the BI'Dil an:i I showed him what I had seen.

Q: Even that DDlkeyi.rg didn't set it off obviously?

A: No, so I guess we called the state police I guess. '!hey sent sanebody fran the baDb squad, fran the army actually. '!hey told us it was out in the BI'Dil, just leave it there. I think they didn't oc:are until the next nv:n:nirg. 'Ihe thiiq is it was, if yoo. pulled the lid up it made electrical contact an:i inside was a grenade an:i a small bottle of gasoline and black ~. SO the idea was that when the grenade went off, the gasoline wculd start a fire an:i destroy the other. Because it came through the mails, sanebody came fran the post office, yoo. know, various officials came out. '!be guy said, "'!'his is the kind that blew up an:i -we are goirg to get those people because this is the kin:i that blew up in our office twice ani maimed people badly. 11 Of course I never heard a wom fran. them again. 'Ihe banb squad said it was a professia'lal job. so I always thought it was the C.I.A. I also figured they were probably the ones. 'lhat was in December. I think it was after that they destroyed the printi.rg equipnent. Ani they 23 left in red ink, nat actually the wall but on a raised thin:;J where you work with type, they wrote in red ink, "'lhe next time it will be you." Q: What did you think?

A: wen let me just say as soon as that ~ the head of the V.F.W. came up with two V.F.W. members and said, "Dell, w want you to know' that l1C'I1::Iody local wculd do that. we disagree with you but we all like you and we get alan; with you." I played m a local ball team with tlal and one t:hinq or another. '!hen they invited me, sane of the guys wanted to li8Eit me and explain, etc. so I met t:hem in a bar down belCIW and I guess it was then that they told me that at the last two or three V. F.W. cxmvent.ions they ·had gone to that people were under a lot of p:ressur:e and waJ.ld said, "Hew a::ae in that little town you let that guy Dellinger exist? He is brin;Jirg disgrace on the whole town." And they hadn't told me that befom. 'lhey said, ''We told them to go fuck themselves." so I figured either sane gavernment aqent or sane1:Jody else outside were teyin;J to do it a:r.d when they didn •t do it they t:cxlk another methcd. I guess I wasn •t overly sw:prised but the hard part of the thirg was with the banb because it was delivered in the mall Which was down a mile and two-tenths of dirt road which is 'Where the mailbox was. If it had been vacation, JJrf kids wtJU.l.d have brought it up ani they prcb!lbly would have t.h:t."am the pack.a.ge back and forth ancl who k:naws. So when the c:x:awention [1968] erded I came h<::ma. I think there were two kids still at haDe and they g:reeted me. '!hey said, "Dad, guess 'What? We've got to move and we •ve got a place and. evm:yth.i.ng'. we want you to a::ae with us, but we •ve got to move whether you do or nat." Wsll there was never any questicn of it. Q: say a little bit a:bout the fact that you carried your pacifism alonq in an intentional oamaamity. Do you think that is one way that people carry en that because in a sense during the 19th centu:ty in Anerica that was the place where pacifism was nurtured.

A: Oh yes, absolutely. (tape stopped)

Q: And. yet Don Benedict starbed his intentional colaxy as the East Harlem Protestant Parish, of cxurse pacifism had disappeared fran his ideology.

A: Yes, he charqed his mini the seccn:i time in prisal. Q: But he still wanted that a:IIII.I.D'lity?

A: Yes, ani he still wanted the i.rme:rt:ity ani he did a magnificent thirg with that. He influenced all kirds of ycur:q m.:i.nisters and. seminl!u:y students ard all the rest.

Q: Whereas your intentional CX1ll'1'1.111i.ty kept to the idea of pacifism? A: Absolutely. well actually, our intentional cxmmmity oonsisted of the first cxmm.mity was-five men all of Whan had been World war 11 objectors in priscn ani none of whan had cha.rged their mind like Don. '!he biggest prcblem that the oama.rnity had was that the men had that bond ancl the 'WCI\'len1 liDSt of t.hem didn't know' each other ahead of t:i.me. '!here were sane strains that developed. a.:roun:1 that. !)wid Dellin;er 24

Q: was it done on a cooperative basis?

A: 'Ihe first one was dane on a cooperative basis. At least a c:x::JUple of us wanted to be oall'll.mal but there wasn •t agreement m that. I '11 have to say -we -were smarter than we might have been but not as smart as -we ought to have been. But we did sit down ani work out the details ahead of time.

Q: Did you have a written agreement?

A: We had sane kird of written agreanent. Again, well you krlattl, before I am finished with this a.ut:.ci:>iogr8lily I have various places where I do have old papers ani thin:Js fran that period. I have files up there ani you can see them here. so these files go back quite a ways, but for the 1930s, 1940s ani 1950S I dal't have here. Well I have a big tnmk upstairs in the attic which has a lot of them. But after-it's fmmy rDII that wall.d tell me about when we went there because I think we always said it lasted for five years, the first camm.mity. SO that :means we went out in the fall of 1.946 but sanetime at'Oil1'Xi 1.951. two of the families broke up, husbard an:i wife. one of the c:x::JUples was much nDre, the one that had insisted the strongest on bein;J a cooperative and nat a OCiliiiiiJl1e ani was, I tho\.1gh.t, very doctrinaire. I'm sure that they thought I was true blue so I dal't mean to put the blame m them.

Q: But you were different?

A: ArrJWaY they wanted to aban1al ani one of the men, whose wife was leavirq hiln, wanted to stay. so actually it was Elizabeth an:i I, him I guess for a while, but we gradually put together another camm.mity which became a cx:mm.me. 'Ihat is w had cxmmma.l finances. Meal'1\\bi.le we had developed the printin;J am pJblishing business. 'Ihe one who stayed in the first camm.mity, ani I, that was hc1tl we eamed our incOme. I guess w had another partner, too. It was a workers cooperative, we called it Libertarian Press am workers Cooperative. Q: What you did was pJblish radical literature?

A: Yes, but we also did art, literature, we printed for the local art ccm:m.mity ani };ilotogra};:ily ani -we printed Liberatim magazine. Actually we basically edited it cut there too altho\.1gh. they had a full board meet.in;r weekly in New York. I didn't make any major decisions. Q: Who was the boal:d?

A: A. J. Rlste was a1 the l:xJard. Sidney Iens, a labor l.eader. decided to leave fran time to time but Paul. Goodman was "'""'"cm-.----,sta.....-ughtal--= I.¥n1 came on it for a while. :samara Deminq was on it. Q: A list of American radicalism during that period.

A: Bayam Rustin was em it and there was a guy Roy Finch, who was at sane point while he was on it was the chairman of the war Resisters league. But Roy resigned in protest when I came back frau OJba in 1.960 ani wrote articles favorable to the OJban Revolutim. DaVid Dellinger 25

Q: He thought you had. gone too far? A: Yes, because after all it was an a:tlDI!IC.i revolution. It had oc:me a1Joltt ~ a:tlDI!IC.i resistance. He was poin.t.in; out hew it had been corrupted by the violen::e and it wasn't. But I was down there expect:.i:ng to be negative about it but to find out for myself.

Q: 'lhat's the whole issue of distril:lut:ed justioe as qp::lSEd to freedam., isn't it? We are always bal.ancin::J that. A: '!hat's right.

Q: Both are important but hew do you do it? But whatever bJ::'cuc;Jht that l::loa:r:d together, the Liberation boa:l:d? was that SCDSt:hin'J you developed or who convened that group of people? '!bat was a rather c:1.isti:D;uish group of :pecple.

A: Well A. J., BayaJ:d and I we:nt ~ very closely at that time. Now I wish I could ra!Jilllll::er that year.

Q: li':M cane you got together with them again?

A: I never had a split with Bayard, I did later but Bayard used to oc:me up the Newark Christian OJlony a lot.

Q: Now his pacifism occurred •••

A: He had been a 1IIBII:bar of the YC11.1DJ o::mm.mist Ieague and then he became a pacifist and went to work for the FOR.

Ern of Side 'IW, Tape one

Q: But we were oo. Bayard and ytQr relatialShip to him after you got out of the FOR. Because by the time you'd gale to jail or the second time, you really were down an A. J. and FOR.

A: Well I'm sure I worked with A. J. in between jail sentenc:es. see, he was not active.

Q: Well by that time he hadn't registered himself.

A: Yes, before I went to jail the second time though there was a big dj ~1tment because A. J. to my min:i was ri<:iin; two horses, one was paCif radicalism and the other was a(X) ••••ooaticrdsm. Now people ~ into these si'b.lat.ians and I da1 •t want to be self-right.eous about 1t. I am urx:1er attack today fran saDe people for doi:rg exactly that same t:hin:J in lfi!J own way by supportir'g Jesse Jackson and work.irq with the Ra.irJJ:Jow' Cbal.ition. But I'll give you an issue of z of which I write about Wt:t:/ I thought • • • - Q: But that was true of A. J. A: A. J. was doirg it in a setting in Whic:b. !-actually I'll say this, I felt he had been dishonest with us. I'm sure he wasn't David Oellin;Jer 26 consciously dishonest. He kept sayin;J to me that he agreed with me that NSER:>, (Naticmal. service Board for Reliqious Cbjectors) was workirq closely with General Hershey, who was administerirq the canps. '!hat it was iJ't'm:)ral, it wasn't right, that the pacifist m:wement shalldn't be ~ the camps, should be suppo~ the men who went to them but should not be part of the administrative staff.

Q: I remember that argument. '!bat was a very ~ argument. A: 'Ihere came a meetiD;J of the executive oammittee or whatever it was called by, the govemirg body of the ~' at which-is it possible that Kil:by Page was there ani he argued agains CPS? If it wasn't Kil:by, it was people like him. You 1m:lw, people who were not part of our radical m::wement, they had their own tremendals integrity, etc.

Q: 'they had gone cut

Q: Had you talked to him about it before?

A: Ch yes, he was always against it ani he hoped we would go against it. '!ben he argued for it ani that's when I felt dishonesty ani I felt betrayed.

Q: I can imagine you did.

A: I talked to him af'terwal:ds am he said, ''Well, we oc:W.d have gotten the vote but people weren •t really for it. we would have lost a lot of money, you know, oontrib.Itians," ani this ani that. 'lhe same t:h.irg that Martin IJ.rther Kirg said at certain points you lose money if he went that way.

Q: 'Well it took him a while to do the anti-Vietnam th..in;f?

A: Yes, on Vietnam, that's where that ha~.

Q: It was about six nart:hs that pressure was laid on him to do that.

A: It was even longer, and a lot of it was behin:i the scenes. Q: Well I know but even out in p.lblio it was. Pecple wrote articles, ''Where is Martin IJ.rther Kin:J goirq to ocme down on this issue?" A: So fran that point on obviously I was mre aloof fran A. J. bJt I was probably on sane FOR youth oc:mnittee or worked with Bayani. It 11'USt have been after that because George Hauser was in that. Q: 'Well, it was 1943. David Dellin;Jer 27

A: Bill I..ovell 'When he got out of jail he didn •t go to -work with ~. .

Q: Yes, he did.

A: Anyway I did not resign fran the FOR but I just felt aloof. EUt then when we were in jail on b.un;Jer strike an.:i this was not our first b.un;Jer strike. '!his was in I.ewistRJrg, my seoc:ni tine in. Q: 'lhat was a hurr;Jer strike over mail privileges or you don't renenber?

A: well yes I do. It began aver in part the denial of the basic requirements of life to people. Because the reason I say that it incluied mail, the rights of people to have mail fran their loved ones without censorship an.:i to receive pJblicatiCI'lS like we p.tt on our list a wide ~, ones that we agreed with an.:i disagreed. we pit the Fellowship Magazine, 'the SOCialist call, Jehovah's Witness Magazine, ChrlStlilri cenb.uy, etc. But also agairiSt :puttjn;J anybOdy in the hole Wber8 tbSY were denied not a'll.y reacl.irq material but toothbrushes, you wren •t even allC11.'ed. a Bible in the hole. so it was more than just prisa1er' s rights. But that was a laq OCI'l'plicated one. 'Ihe thi.rg was that after that I have no idea what it was about but we were on a hllD;Jer strike. It was always about prisat abuses an.:i prisoner's rights.

Q: Bayard Rustin, was he there at that time?

A: No, Baya.J:d went to Ashlan.:i, Kentucky. He an.:i I had been arrested here an.:i there but we were nat in the same centers. But we were on a hurqer strike an::l we were tryi.rg to negotiate sanehow' or other, we were supposed to be a11C11.'ed. to have scmabody fran the outside visit us after about two weeks of the hun;Jer strike. 'Ihe ooe thin;J we wanted was that per&a'l publicize outside but we also wanted hint to back us to the warden. we received a letter sayiD:J that A. J. wcul.d like to cxme. Interestingly enough not me, but other 1:nm;Jer strikers said, ''No, absolutelf nat, A. J." c:briously I went alaq with it but I did not inititate J.t. I was not that eq;ilatic about it. SO we said, "No, we don •t want A. J. , we want Evan 'lhanas." I was certainly pJShinq Evan 'lhaoas.

Q: Yes, who had always been SU);p)rtive right fran the beginning. A: '!hat jail experience that A. J. didn't-I mean a different Jdn:l of-I'm sure that A. J. had been in jail but he hadn't been in that Jd.rd penitentiaey. What do you S1JR:X1SG :tlawened the day he came? Who walked into to see us? A. J.

Q: so. How many of you were there?

A: I remember the other htn':ger strike so well I hardly :t"E!l\BBber this one. well, we had ~ fran time to time.

Q: Is there anybody I WCR.lld krlc7..t that was also ail'CI'gst that group? can you remember how many there were? David Dellirqer 28

A: I •m sure Ralph DeGhia was one of them.

Q: was Ralph DeGhia? I remember his name.

A: But Ralph wculd not be as frank with you-I think he might. But I •m think:inl this is 1.'1cM many years ago ani A. J. dead. I think it 1 s nDre valid education, just like with Martin luther KirJJ not to gloss aver the early sb.lff. Eve:rycne of us is human, eveeyone makes terrible mistakes all the way alorg the line. Q: we need that to knc:Jw" that • • •

A: Yes ani -we have to un:lerstand that there are no perfect leaders. Q: Nobody is goin;J to do it always. But when he came in, what did you do? You aoaepted him or not?

A: well there was a m:we not to meet with him when we heard. I guess we knew before he came in that he had called ani that he was visitin;J with the warden an::i that he wcu1d OCIDB. '1here were sane, I ccul.d tell you a name, ani he's dead rx:M but a guy by the name of Paytal Price who hated A. J. till the day he died, an::i especially after this, but who absolutely insisted that we not meet with him. But those of us who, inclucli.rq me, who felt we should meet with him even t:hc:lucpl we were di~i.nted, 'WOl'l out ani Payton agreed. When he came m, I can •t bel eve, don •t want to aversinpl.ify it but he started tellin;J us all the warden's prcblems ani difficulties. 'Ihe warden •••

Q: Had 'WOl'l him aver?

A: Yes, at least up to a point. It WOJ!d help if I ccul.d remember what the strike was about ani whatnot.

Q: Have you ever talked to Meredith Dallas about his seoord prison experience?

A: Veey little.

Q: I intel:viewed Meredith and that secord prison experience was a devasta'tirg one for him.

A: He went to Ashlan::i too I didn •t he?

Q: He went to Ashlan::i.

A: SO he was probably with Bayard. Let me just finish this briefly. so we were pretty upset an::i it was not a pretty, frien:Uy th.in;J. I forget 1.'1cM we found out but before lorg that one of the things that A. J. had done was negotiatate with the warden for the release of A1 Hassler who was the editor of Fellowship ani the executive director of FOR, an:l was in jail ani never jolried any of our stikes. NCM on tlrls I want a nate of cautiat to say that if A1 just ccul.dn't make it in prison ani had to get out that is urnerst:an:mble. But it was never put that way ani what hawened was that part of the agreement was that he would not write anythin;;J about the prison or against the war ani 29

'WOUldn •t speak against the war. So I felt that was the -worst loetrayal of A. J. I 111a8n worse than the NSBRO t:hirq, etc.

Q: I can U1'Xierst:ard that.

A: And what happened was that after the war-so people like ~f went ahead am organized, like on. OJr C1tl.n the a:mrdttee for Non-violent Revolution. Early we started. publish.inq sanet:hi:rg called Dil:ect Action. Actually Raliil DeGhia., Bill B'enrrl.rq, who was one of the first 'li&'iibers of our ii1tentlonal. CCill11lll1ity I am Elizabeth, r.rtj wife, am I put. out a little thinq for two issues, Dil:ect Action. Q: What did you use for a mail.irg list?

A: we developed a list. MeanWhile we organized, we had a rnmiber of t:h.iJ'.vas. We had a mee:tin;J of the militant 00s am we organized a committee for non-violent revolution. 'lhen it began to publish sanethinq called Alternatives.

Q: Oh, I 'va heard of that, sure.

A: Wh..ich Paul • • • had written sanethinq for but mainly we wrote it alt'Selves.

Q: '!hat developed into Liberation?

A: well it led into it step by step, and the Alternative was banned fran the mails at sane point. I think when tJ:leY passed the next peacetime draft in 1948 -we urged not to register. It was seized at the post office and the mails. But then a:rourxi that time A. J. began to CXI1Ie to life am Bayard kept canirg to me and say.irg, "A. J's cba:nged. a:rd he wants you to work with him, he wants to work with you again."

Q: Is that right? He sent him or he came on his CMn?

A: So little by little, you knc:lw, I didn't want to hold a grudge and I'd had valuable work with him at times and I hoped it was true but I tried to keep r.rtj eyes open.

Q: So that's hew you got back in a sense? A: Yes, and at sane point we organized Peacemakers with A. J. am Bayal::ti an:l I fm:get if George lb.lser or ii5t. BUt A. J. and Bayard and Mght MacOanal.d was at the founding cawention and Cecil Hinshaw, the pxesident of the ~ college in Iowa.

Q: COJ:nell, no. I knc:lw there's one there. A: BUt Emest an:l Marion Bl:aDley, do you knew their names?

Q: SUre.

A: And Maurice MacCracken.

Q: Maurice MacCracken? David Dellfnaer 30

A: I •m pretty sure he was there at the fam:ii.Iq of it. Wally am Juanita Nelsa1, do you knc::Jw them? A black couple. staunch war resisters. What happened was that Marion Branley had been A. J. • s secretary am she had becxtne a war-tax refuser. 'Ihe FOR wt:W.d not agree to let her be a war-tax refuser as they insisted on withholdin:J her ealaey, so either she resigned or they flred her. '1hey came to a partin;J of the way. Don •t ask me when that was but she moved out to Ohio with Emie am they were prime D¥:JVerS. see I dan •t knew who initiated all that, not cecil Hinshaw, not ndght MacDonald but probably A. J., Bayard ani myself am the Branley's ani the Nelson's, just guessm.,, but we were all in contact one way or another. one reason I was in touch with Ohio was because they had a oammmity there at Antioch, whatever it was with Einest MoJ:gan, the son of the 'IVA guy MoJ:gan.

Q: But it was an intentional cxm:mmity you mean?

A: Yes, it was a little different than ours but it was an intentional ocmra.mity. So we used to go out ani we held meetin;Js there of one kini or another, antiwar meetin:Js, antidraft meetin;Js. Q: But you never at that time saw Dal?

A: I don't think he was at Antioch either.

Q: Oh yes, when he got out of jail he went to Antioch am never left Antioch. well he was away for a period of time. He went to Western Reserve for two years so it might have been in that period, but he drq:ped out of activities when the war was O'Jer.

A: Yes, I used to see him ani Willa. But as a matter of fact what you say about him having had a terrible time. I remember Willa tellirq me that Da1 just had a terrible time ani he didn't want to talk to anybody am he didn •t want to do anything, but since we were old frierrls he would love to see me, but we avoided that.

Q: Where we were was your relatialShip with Bayard am how cane Bayard ani also A. J. had gotten back to fom Liberation.

A: Yes, I'm tryirq to sort it out. It was a slow process before Liberation I'm pzetty sure. What we did is we foun:ied Peacemaker toe;jet'.llii" an:i we did antidraft stuff, we circulated a thil'ij for people to sign that they 'WOUld refuse to register, etc. Actually saneone fran Ohio, a historian fran there, it was Dean, went to prison as a non-registrant.

Q: Yes, I remember that case.

A: I know him well too ani his name isn't c:x:miiq to me. At sane point cx:x:x> was f~. [central camnittee for OJnscientious Cbjectors]

Q: It was foun:ied at that early time?

A: aNA was foun:ied. A. J. played a key role in both. I decided I didn •t have time for anything but cxxx:> ani I wasn •t sure whether I David Dell:in;Jer 31 would agree with it. I'd had a bad experience with Rrl.ladelpua Quakers. I had good experiences also but with the l:m'eauc:racy at 20 SC:uth 01arles street.

Q: ClCCX) is still Quaker daninated, is it?

A: I dan It knc::IW anynDJ:e.

Q: I don 1t think it is at this point. I think it has D:M!d cut from umer there to sane degree.

A: But aeyway I didn't have tilDe for that but I went with Irr:i firqers crossed into OWA, O::lmnittee for Non""'Violant Action, and A. J. is an exanple of this radicalism and this was pretty early, went cut to ClDaha to an air force base. '!here was the fannJS picture of him climb:i.rq over the fenoe and gettin'J arrested. Q: so he was radicalized at that time?

A: He was doirq t:h.:in3s, yes. I, with great regrets, stayed away from that one. I was all this time tryirq to weigh dUal responsibilities, if you can call it that, but try to make one of them hav:i.rq five childJ:en. As I say the last three of whan I delivered myself. One of the ideas of the intentional oamm..mity was that if sanebody went off and went to jail, the cxmmmity wcul.d continue to take care of tlli.rqs ani you could take tums. I mean of l>tlo went to jail and also that the children would grow up with DDre than one parent so to speak. I mean the closeness. we had iniividual family lmits but other adults. It didn't work fully that way but I don't think the reason I didn't go to Qnaha was that I might go to jail. Because I did I'm sure get arrested sane duri.rg that period and I conti.rrued to be a war-tax refuser even though I was told that I was going to jail for it. But I tried to limit Iff:( times away fran haDe and that was like goirq out to Nebraska an:i beirJ:J gone probably for a week or two weeks ani I did:n •t go. ArrjWay -we worked together and a lot of it became focused-well Golden Rule.

Q: Ch Golden Rule, that was largely Quaker, wasn•t it?

A: No, well Geon;re WillaNby, who was a Quaker, was part of CNVA an:::i Cllarlie walker was a ()laker.

Q: 'nlere were two Quakers maybe out of the four?

A: Vietnam war there was an~, Quaker Actim Gra.Jp, whose ship went to Vietnam. Q: I was gett.irq those confused.

A: B.1t the first one was Albert BigelCM, 'Who had been the Housi.rg Caamissioner for the state of Massadnlsetts, ani Jim Peck, who was with the war Resisters League ani had been beaten in a fl::eedan ride till he alioost died. Albert BigelCM 1 Jim Peck and maybe Geol:ge PDvey.

Q: '!bat first Golden Rule that sailed out into the hydrogen banb test was what they did? David Dellirqer 32

A: axt that was sanet:hiig again because with small children I

Q: You have to decide your crosses, I mean you can't take on them all.

A: You can't at 73 like I am l'lCM or at any age. Q: You have to decide, you can •t take all the b.lrdens.

A: Absolutely ani that's one tll.iig that saoetimes there is weakness in the mvement is that people think it's got to be l'lCM ani if you're nat ready to do it with ma, yoo.' re nat serious. Q: I've heani that.

A: I'm sure you have. I prefer William Penn who said to the soldier who was woxried about carey:ixg the glm or the swom whichever it was sayirg, ''Wear it as lcmg as you can." I had to speak up in Toronto. I probably didn't even knew about the action that they took up there against the seven, the ecananic sunmit natialS. '!hey held a war crimes tribunal. '!hey indicted them for war crimes, they planned on civilian arrests am civil dj soberlience a week later. '!hey carried it out, two thousani people, they didn't care if the civilian arrests, 1:ut two thousani pec:ple camnitted civil disobienoe. Anyway after a three day war-crimes tr:ib.mal I was the sole speaker at the eveni.n;l sessia1 to tell people about their responsibilities to take actions. It was why I was asked. I quoted William Penn's, ''Wear the sword as lc:nJ as ycu can," that there are seasons in everybody's life just like there are in nature ani if it is nat the right season, don't do it. Q: Ani don't force other people to do it.

A: Exactly, but I was embarrassed when I found out heM they had the setup, you know. In fact they even as far as I know, made up a quote fran me in the leaflet fran the meetirg sayi.n;J, ''Now it is our duty to go out." I decided nat to challetge the quote but only the spirit of it and the messaqe. I didn •t want to embarrass the organizers beycni a certain point.

Q: SO durin;J the fifties you were involved in sane draft resistance? A: Yes, well fran 1948 on.

Q: sure the first pea.cetilne draft with the Berlin blockade oc::tnin:J on but nat as Ill.lCh as the rmclear issues.

A: Cb yes, because we were goi.n:J to New I.orxion, COnnecticut for the Polaris missile.

Q: wait a minute, those were the sixties?

A: No, Polaris missiles were 1955 or 1956.

Q: You're right, of course, because we had those. 'lhe Sputnik wasn't quite as threatenirg to the imustrial militaJ:y oatplex but it was pJ:etty threateninq 0 Dwid Dellirqer 33

A: Yes, an:i also we went there regularly.

Q: so you were involved in that then as well. You just didn't happen to go to omaha ani didn't happen to go to Golden Rule.

A: Well the Polaris event-it was funny about the kids l:ut it seems to me sanetilnes--there were tilDes I went alone as far my family was concerned, sanetimes Elizabeth went together with me or Elizabeth arxi sane of the kids.

Q: Brin;Jin;;J kids up in a radical family, ha.rl is that? How have they tumed out? Have they tumed out to be oanservatives or are they still can:yirq the banner?

A: Nate of them are CXI'lSerVatives. sane of them are mre active than others. aJt all of them are active for sane of what I wall.d call the same values. Elizabeth ani I share. Like Tanya's mather bel.CJR3B to, actually a Yoga group, Which is makin;J saoe kind of a bridge between the Yoga mvement ani American Indians. When I said Tanya is DDVin;J to the catskills, a group of I'm nat quite sure exactly ha.rl many, l:ut maybe three families arxi one or two sin;Jle people, have bought lard together in the catskills arxi are establi.shin;J an intentional oc:armmity there. art she hasn •t been out in demonstratia& maybe as l1D.lCh right now rut she is in the spiritual and ecumenical unions arxi native rights.

Q: Do you think that a necessary part of active pacifism •••

A: All my children are pacifists.

Q: But an active part of that is the ccmmmitarian, do you have to have that suwort fran a cx:mmmity to be this •..

A: ell I think whatever you do you need suwoJ:t fran a oc:armmity but it can be an informal CC1l'811l11i.ty. . I am nat livin;J in a );hysical ccmrunity now.

Q: But you have those networks of supports?

A: Yes ani I belorq to an affinity gra.1p.

Q: '!here are variCIUS ways of get:tirg that support b.tt c:ibviCIUSly to want society to change you've got to have sane support of people Who think that you are not just out there sanewhere. But the other thing actually to get society to chan:Je is you have to have sane inp.rt into the establishment, don't you, which is what Martin I.uther Kin; had when he had his oonnection throught the NAACP. A: Well yes, what about it?

Q: 'Ihe March on W'ashi.ngton an:i the Civil Rights Act.

A: '1he March in Washin;Jton originally was goirg to be brirgi.rq the messaqe of the south to the enemy in wa.shirqton. 'Ihe enemy was the federal government. 'lhere were goirg to be lie-downs in the runways David Dallirger 34 of the national ai.rp::>rt, sit-ins and all kirr:is of thir:gs. Nav Roy Wil.ld.ns of NAACP • • •

Q: said no way. A: And the Ul:ban Iaague and walter Reuther and all the :rest, also Jolm F. Kennedy who called them into the White House at a certain time. Q: Ani they said, ''No way are you goirg to do this." A: Yes an:i if you do, Kennedy actually at the er.td of the meeti.r.g in the White House Which was broader than the people I mentioned .includerl others like :Mc.:Kissock and Jim Far.mer and Jolm I.swis an:i others. Q: so it i.nclu::B:i saae of the radicals too.

A: At the er.td of it Kennedy invited Kirq to a private walk in the :rose garden and who knows what they said 1::hez'e. But 11CW' I have to say right out that Bayard Rustin is n:n: a trust:worthy source. He was a marvel.COJ man in one way blt he even enjoyed lyirg. He was a pathological liar.

Q: Sane people do, don't they? A: I mean I worked with him in causes and we would do saae1::hinq t.oget:ber and than go in and make our report. Ba.yam would embellish it with several lies that dian •t even help.

Q: Yes, that's pathological lyirg when saDel:xxiy tells a lie just for the joy of it.

A: But saae of Jtf:i informaticn-ar:d this is fran Bayani. It • s also sanet:hi.ng' that has been confil:med fran other sources. Ani actually I'm waitirg for Vincent Hardi.nq because I've written about this. I'll be inte:r:ested. in what he thinks, whether he has arrt kind of information. But I know' that eveeybody testifies that J .F.K. said to K:l.rg that he would n:n: be able to p.lSh for a civil rights bill in ~ if non-violent action -were to take place there. so I think: that 1 s a very sed.uctive path of as yau say you have to have sane infiltators. 1l.2r.in;J the Vietnam war r spoke to senator FUlbright and his staff. I l'lCI'.t1 have an intimate relations with several black cor:q.ressman and some relationship with others blt it's as an outsider lll:lSt of it. 'l't1a1gh actually there is a bridge like Ron ll!llum's chief administratrive assistant and I are co-chair of a OCIIJID.ittee to help an Ol.'98llization, National camnitte for In:iependent Action. But basically I think it's a seductive path-and that's Why I wouldn't consider beirg a Jackson Derrw:Jcrat at the Derrw:Jcratic corwention even.

Q: Bec.::ause you feel that that was bei.rq ••• A: Actually no, I don't. 'Iha.t would be unfair to say. But I don't want to get too clcse to that ard be sen:iirg out messaqes to people. Alth.c:u;Jh it's funny I eJ.1CC.'ll.lrag people to be delegates. I've just decided I •ve got too 1l'I.1.Ch else to do. But I think the st::rorY:Jest message to the establisJ:nnent is by the quality of the life you are DaVid Oelliu;Jer 35 leadi.D;J and the denalstrations you are ~ and the resistance you are can:yhg at, like the boyoatts and the CJ.vil disobedience.

Q: You think that • s what ~· '!hen you negotiate once you have made your denv:lnstratiat • • •

A: Well you can keep the charmels open all the time.

Q: Yes, you keep ta1Jd.n;J l:ut at the same time you don't sell out before you •ve done • • •

A: In every radical demonstratiat that I lalc:Jw of, sanebody who is -workir:g in Washirgton t.eyhg to influetXJe Ca::n;J:ress has said, 110h, this will have a negative affect at them. 'Ibis will frighten them. 'lhis will have a backlash. 11 Martin I11ther Kfn:1 if F read his letter fran Bil::mfn:Jham jail, the M:>X'l'l'OtlS always told rum, "Not nt:M, wait, wait. othel:wise you are goin;J to antagonize people." Eight clergyman wrote that letter.

Q: But the clergyman who wrote him were not what I -would call A: But there were plenty of others.

Q: Who were tellin;J them to go slow.

A: "Don't cane out against the vietnam war, don't march in the demonstration because you will alienate people in can:p:-ess. 'Ihey' re just waitin;J for an excuse. 11

Q: '!he American people -wouldn't have gotten rid of Johnson if there hadn't been nonviolent actiat. 'lhere is just no questicm of that.

A: Anyway I am cxmvinoed of it, that's my position. '!hat's not S't:oJ;p!d me fran just callin;J those people the enemy am;or refUsin;J to talk with them.

Q: You can talk l:ut you feel you need to keep that separation because you have your tasks a:nd they have their tasks a:nd if you t.ey to mix them then you are not goin;J to get • • • well go back to the fifties again. were you in the Tax Resistance then at that tiJne-Maccra.ck • • • A: I have been a war-1:ax resister fran 1941 on when I got out of jail. I did no in:xme tax but there was same kin::i of deduction fran the jail, there was a war-tax. So I worked between jail sentences. I worked in a J:nJqe bakeJ:y 'Whim was like a factocy.

Q: 'Ibis was in Newark?

A: I guess before I did that I worked for a few mnth in a huge lauzm:y, I ran an extractor. In those days they didn •t have dl:yers. Anyway I pulled those '\ll8t clothes out a:nd :pit into an extractor which whirled them around or sanethin;J. I refused to be hired at either job as a regular but we had an agreement that I worked everyday.

Q: You were an in:leperx:lent contractor workir:g by the day? 1:8Vid Dellirl]er 36

A: workirr;J by the day ani When we first got in with the Libertarian Press, which was When I got out of jail the seocni time ani before we 1TOVEid to New Je.rsf!¥, we didn •t owe arrt taxes but we had to file, ani we filed. I wrote sayin;J that I didn't want them to think that because I filed that I -wcul.d have paid if I had of owed a tax because I was a war-tax resister. So that started in 1945.

Q: So you carried that on? A: I haven't filed for years.

Q: New you feel as if that kini of demonstration says to the govemment they need to charge their policies related to war. A: You can never judge the effect of these t.hirgs but if you refuse to participate in sanet:hirg that you c:xmsider to be evil, it gives sane message a:rt:JW8.Y. I mean sometimes it's a moral cx:amm.mication with people arxi sometiJnes it's scmethi.ng different. 'lbey'd been so neJ:VOUS about war-tax resistance that they've gone very easily on war-tax resistance users.

Q: I knc:M they have. AlthaJgh I do know' a minister in our association who simply wrote across his return I pay this tax un:ler protest ani he is called in every year to explain his taxes.

A: Ql yes I there is harassment.

Q: But they've gone easy in tenus of jail.

A: well with me they seized TJ.ri bank aCXXlUI'lt such as it was at one point. But for years with that CCI1IliiJl'1a1. finances I think that threw them off. But when Anrn Hennessy, who was a notorious war-tax resister, was there the I.R.S. came for hi:m. He wasn't arrested if I rernemher. 'Ihen the next week or two weeks they came back to me. I remember they said I was goirq to jail two or three times, they said, "You are goirq to go jail. 11

Q: Well it's like what you said ab:ut the Nazi govemment. '1bere is no tyranny that has a 1:IUrm'ed percent cont:J:ol?

A: Right exactly.

Q: I mean even in Nazi GeJ::many there are freedats? A: Yes.

Q: Not a lot an::l even in the SOViet Union ani even in CUba there are freedans.

A: Ani even in federal prisons there were. We published an ~ newspaper in I.ewis1:urq, ard in lli)St prisons they do. '!here are all kinds of thin;Js that you do • • •

Q: one lll)re question, I think w shculd quit because you are tired. I'm thinkin;;r your cormection then with Martin I..uther Ki.rg was first t:hJ:t:u;Jh Bayani Rustin? David Dellirqer 37

A: Yes.

Q: 'Ihen Bayard brought the material to Liberation fran Martin I..uther K.in:J IS D¥:M!IDEmto

A: Yes, are ycu familiar with Liberation?

Q: Yes.

A: In our seconi issue Martin I.llther Kirg wrote for us. One issue I actually confessed my sins as 'Well as other peoples. one issue I wrote an article for Martin Illther Ki.rq. He looked at it ani approved it blt I didn •t feel oanfortable about it. I decided never to do it again. He actually ask ll'S to go to the Bahamas with him to work on his first book. I guess I would say I wasn't even t:en'pted. First of all because of my family, an:l not that I was a model wlth them, because there \\'ere tilDes I was away when I shoUldn't have been. Secondly because I'd had that experier¥Je of writin;J that article. You knatl ltlhat haR;lened was that I p.xt in sanething which I never heard him say or wasn't sure he believed. I pit it in to fini out arxl decided it seemed to be logical. A logical extension of wat I think I'd heard h.il'D. say. I couldn •t even tell ycu l'lC1tl wat it was. Am when the article came out sanelxdy said toll'S, "Look at this, isn't this great? Kin;J believes this," ani quoted that para.grcqil. Q: Arxi you said to yoorself, "I'm not goirq to do that again?" A: No, I'm not only goirg to do that again, I'm not goin;J to ever write an article for anybody else. Well at least not for anybody fa.ncus.

Q: I wordered if sane of the other articles were written by Bayard more than by • • •

A: Ql I •m sure they were.

Q: '!hey read like Bayard. so where do ycu think that n::m.-violent philosophy came fran? He didn't k:naw that when he was at B.U., did he? I think he learned it as he •••

A: Up to a point b.It very elementaJ:y. What • s the name of the guy, he went to the N.A.A.C.P. Legal Defense FUn:i if I remember correctly or did he go thra.1gh semincny. Well there was a guy and I knew' his name so well, who was one of these ethics teachers there who intrcxiuoed him to Galdli.

Q: Yes, that's what he says.

A: I knew the guy myself quite well blt I can't tell yoo. his name nc::M • But Kirg didn It knatl very llUCh, like wery'lxXJ.y else.

Q: He learned as he went alon:J ard became radicalized as he m::JVed in. A: Have ycu ever :read David Garrc1t1?

Q: Yes, remember I said that I had. I brought a cq;J':f al~. DaVid Dellin;Jer 38

A: Did he write two bOOks?

Q: Yes, he did, but this latter one is supp:lSEdly the definitive ••

Erd of side one, Tape Two

Q: I would like to start out probably in 1945, when did yal get out of prison?

A: well, the seoord time I got Oit of prison was in April of 1945. Q: April, 1945. '1he war was aver then. A: No, the war was not over. If yoo J::'e!MI11tllar, the atan banbs weren't drqop:d. until August • • •

Q: 1be war in Elll:'q)e was over. A: No, I don •t believe it was. Q: It wasn't over then, yes.

A: I don't believe it was. Roosevelt was still alive. Elizabeth had arranged with sane frienis am. connections for me to have a job workin;J for a Quaker fanner outside of :Ehllad.elphia, I guess. I worked for hiin for aJxut a Daith, I 'WOUld say. 'lhe problem was that we had had an ironclad agreement that I wt:JUld only work forty hours a week because I was desperate to ao sane writinq after prison. Q: You wanted to pxt those • • •

A: I wanted to have enough time when I got out to be able to write. He had agreed to that. 'Ihe fann required a lot JrOre ani I did a lot ll'Ol:'e. At a certain point, he said to me, "It's not right for the owner to be out in the field workin;J ani the hired man to be in his house writirq." I had a number of disillusioni.rg experiences with a mnnber of specific Quakers, as I have with any other gra.tp as anybody has found to have. Whether by chw:dl or by political group or anyt:hi.rg. 'Ihat experience was certainly one of them. It was not only violating an agreement, but it was the CM'lE!r-WOrker class division ani an abllity to value spiritual wri~ or the spiritual connections with writi.rq.

Q: so, fran there then • 0 0

A: we both want very quickly to a o:Jttage in the catskills, next door to my friem, the p:et, Kermeth Patchen an:i his wife, Marion. Q: Okay. He was a friem at that time. A: He was a frierd am had becaDe a frien:i between pri.sa'l sentences. Actually, he had cane to hear me speak at an affair with Paul Goodman,