English Version

_ ~iD(1a Series, Vol. VIIN~_ 5! Tuesd.,. Ma, 29. 1tN Jyaistlla 8, I'll (~)

LOK SABHA DEBATES (English Version)

Seceod SellLoD (NID" Lok S.bba)

(~ol. VII CO.'alru No .. 51 to 5S)

LOI SABRA SEeR.TAII 'I' NIW DELHI "rlC. I RI. ~.0tJ (~I _ ...... I~ 111 81101..1tM v• .,. ... OIatGDI'L IIDIDI .....1 .. JtrfQJ.UpID De tIJtak "...,.. WILL • _.., AI AU ...... ,.. MID .,.. ... ,...,...,..,. n ....t CONTENTS

[Ninth Series, Vol. VII, Second Session, 199011912 (Saka)J

No. 51, Tuesday, May 29. 1990/Jyaistha 8, 1912 (Saka)

CoLUMNS

Papers laid on the Table 1-9

Messages from Rajya Sabha 9-10 legislative Council Bill 10--50 As passed by Rajya Sabha-Laid leave of Absence from the sittings of the House 50--51

Pettion Re. Closure of Refractory and Ceramic Units of Raniganj No.2 52 Works and Durgapur Works of Burn Standard Co. Ltd. West Bengal-Presented

Statement by Minister 52-59 Licensing policy on steel

Shri Dinesh Goswami

Matters Under Rule 377 59-64

(i) Need to set up an Atomic Power Plant in district Puri of 59-60 Orissa at the place proposed by Site Selection Committee for Eastern Region

Shri Gop; Nath Gajapathi

(ii) Need to include 'Gaund', 'Manjhi' and 'Panika' tribes of 60 Uttar Pradesh in the tist of Scheduled Tribes

Shri Mohanlal Jhikram (ii)

CoLUMNS

(iii) Need to include the project of extension of metre gauge 61 line upto Agartala, Tripura, in the 8th Plan

Shri Sontosh Mohan Dev

(iv) Need to instal high power T. V. transmitter at Doordarshan 62 Catre, Saharsa in Bihar

Shri Surya Narayan Yadav

(v) Need to open a Central Research University In Uttrakhand 62 in Uttar Pradesh

Shri M.S. Pal

(vi) Need for effective steps to check polutlon of water by 63 effluents from various chemical and phQrmacenticals industries In Madhya Pradesh, particularly in Ratlam

Dr. Laxminarayan Pandeya

(vii) Need to take steps to check the sOil erosion 63~4 caused by Ghaghra river in Azamgarh district, Uttar Pradesh

Shri Ram Krishan Yadav

(viii) Neet to withdraw cases of vlctlmisation against 64 Railway employees and to remove Rule 14(ii) of the Railway Servants (DIscipline and appeal) Rules, 1968

Shri A.K. Roy

Const~ut!on (Scheduled Castes) Orders (Amendment) Bill 65-107 .' As Passed by Rajya Sabha

Motion to consider

Shri Suresh Kod.kkunnil 65-67

Shri Ramashray Prasad Singh 67-69 (iii)

COLUMNS

Shri P. Pencha1liah 69-72

Shr; Piyare LaJ Handoo 72-74

Shri Satynarayan Jatiya 74-76

Shri N. Dennis 76-78

Kumari Simal Kaur Khalsa 78

Shri B. Rajaravi Varma 79--80

Prof. K.V. Thomas 81

Shr; Haribhau Shankar Mahale 81-83

Shri Peter G. Marbaniang 84

Shr; Vamanrao Mahadik 84-85

Shri Palas Barman 86-88

Shri Ratilal Kalidas Varma 88

Shri Ram Vilas Paswan 88-96

Clauses 2 to 7 and 1 97-107

Motio to Pass Shri Ram Vilas Paswan 99-106

Constitution (SIxty-EIghth amendment) Bill 107-167

Motion to consider

Shri Kusum~ Krishna Murthy 113-116

Shri Ram Dhan 116-121

Shri Khemchandbhai Somabhai Chavda 121-124

Shri Uttam Rathod 124-128 (iv)

CoLUMNS

Shri Nani Bhattacharya 128-130

Shri K.O. Sultanpun 130-132

Shn Santosh Bhartlya 132-133

Shn Chhavlram Argal 133-138

Shri Arvind Netam 138-139

Kumar! Mayawatl 139-140

Shn Glrdhan Lal Bhargava 140

Shn Ram Lal Rahl 140-142

Shn P,yare Lal Handoo 142-144

Shn Hanbhau Shankar Mahale 144-145

Shn Vishwanath Pratap Singh 145-146 149-159

Shn Vasant Sathe 147-148

Shn Ram Vilas Paswan 159-167

Constitution (Sixty-Sixth Amendment) SIll 167-174

Motion to consider

Shn Upedra Nath Verma 167

Shn Guman Mal Lodha 167-174 LOK SABHA DEBATES

LOKSABHA on the working of the Na- tional Hydroelectric Power Corporation Limited for the year '988--89. TU8sday, May 29, 1990lJyaistha 8, 19 12 (Saka) (ii) Annual Report of the Na- tional Hydroelectric Power Corporation Limited for the year 1988-89 along with The Lok Sabha met at Audited Accounts and com· ments of the Comptroller and Eleven of the Clock Auditor General thereon.

[MR. SPEAKER in the Chail1 (2) A statement (Hindi and English versions) showing reason. for PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE delay in laying the papers mentioned at (1) above. [Placed in [Eng/ish] Library. See No. l T 1022190]

Review on the working of and Annual (3) A copy of the Report (Hindi and Report of National Hydroelectric Power English versions) of the Comp· Corporation Ltd. for 1988-89 and atat. troller and Auditor General of ment for detay In laying the.. paper. and India-Union Government (No. 13 Report of Comptroller and Auditor Gen- of 1989) (Commercial)-Neyveli .r.' of India-Union Government - (No. Lignite Corporation Limited. 13 of 1989) (Commercial) - Neyvell Lig- under article 151 (1) of the Con- nite Corporation Ltd. stitution. [Placed in library. SH No. LT 1023/90] THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (SHAI ARIF Notifications under Major Port Trust. Act MOHAMMAD KHAN): I beg to lay on the 1963 and Highways Ad 1956 and atata- Table:- ment for delay In laying the Notification under National Highway Act 1956; An- (1) A copy each of the following nual AdmInIstrative Report and Revle. papers (Hindi and English ver- on the Working of Pepau Road Tran8port sions) under sub-sedion (1) of Corporation Patla .. for 1987-88 8tC. section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956-- THE MINISTER OF SURFACE TRANS- PORT (SHAI K.P. UNNIKRtSHNAN): I beg (i) Review by the Government to lay on the Table- 3 Papers Laid MAY 29,1990 Papers Laid 4

(1) A copy of Notification No. G.S.R. the year 1987-88. 24 (E) (Hindi and English versions) published in Gazette of (5) A statement (Hindi and English India dated the 22nd January, versions) showing reasons for 1990 approving the Calcutta Pi- delay in laying the papers men- lot Service (other than Haldia tioned at (4) above. [Placed in Dock Complex) (Training, Grad- Library. See No. L T 1026/90] ing and Seniority) Regulations, 1990 under sUb-section (4) of (6) (i) A copy of the Annual Report section 124 of the Major Port (Hindi and English versions) Trusts Act, 1963. [Placed in of the Bombay Dock Labour Library. See No. L T 1024/90] Board for the year 1988-89 along with Audited Accounts (2) A copy of Notification No.S.O. under Section 5E of the Dock 147(E) (Hindi and English ver- Workers (Regulation of sions) published in Gazette of Employment) Act, 1948. India dated the 20th February, 1989 declaring five State Roads (ii) A copy of the Review (Hindi as National Highways together and English versions) by the with a corrigendum thereto pub- Government on the working lished In Notification No. S.O. of the Bombay Dock Labour 674 (E) In Gazette of India dated Board for the year 1988-89. the 22nd August, 1989 under section 10 of the National High- (7) A statement (Hindi and English ways Act. 1956, versions) showing reasons for delay in laying the papers men- (3) A statement (Hindi and English tioned at (6) above. [Placed in versions) showing reasons for Library. See No. L T 1027/90] delay In laying the papers mentioned at (2) above. [Placed in (8) (i) A copy of the AnntJal Report Library. See No. LT 1025/90] (Hindi and English versions) of the National Institute of (4) (I) A copy of the Annual Ad- Port Management Madras, ministration Report (Hindi for the year 1988-89 along and English versions) of the with Audited Accounts. Pepsu Road Transport Cor- poration, Patiala, forthe year (ii) A copy of the Review (Hindi 1987-88 under sub-section and English versions) by the (3) of sect ion 35 of the Road Government on the working Transport Corporations Act, of the National Institute of 1950, read with clause (c) Port Management, Madras, (IV) of the Proclamation for the year 1988-89. dated the 11 th May, 1987 issued by the President in (9) A statement (Hindi and English relation to the State of versions) showing reasons for Punjab. delay in laying the papers mentioned at (8) above. [Placed in (ii) A copy of the ReView (Hindi Library. See No. LT 1028/90] and English versions) by the Government on the working (10) A statement (Hindi and English of the Pepsu Road Trans- versions) explaining the reasons port Corporation. Patlala, for for not laying the Audited k- 5 Papers Laid JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Papers Laid 6

counts of the Pepsu Road Trans .. versions) published in Gazette port cOrporation, Patiala, for the of India dated the 30th August, year 1988-89 within the stipu- 1989, regarding exemption to lated period of nine months after tractors from the requirements of the close ofthe Accounting Vear. certain provisions of sub-section [Placed in Library. See No. LT (3) of section 110 of the Motor 1029/90] Vehicles Act, 1988 issued under the said section of the Act. (11) A copy each of the following Notifications (Hindi and English (13) A copy of the Notification No. versions) under section 8A of 5.0. 766 (E) (Hindi and English the Dock Workers (Regulation of versions) published in Gazette Employment) Act, 1948: of India dated the 27th Septem- ber, 1989 appointing the 1st (i) The Calcutta Dock Clerical March, 1990 as the date on which and Supervisory Workers the provisions of sub-rule (i) of (Regulation of Employment rule 115 of the Central Motor Amendment Scheme, 1989 Vehicles Rules, 1989 shall come published in Notification No. into force issued under sub-rule S.O. 1968 in Gazette of (3) of rule 1 of the said Rules. India dated the 26th Au· gust, 1989. (14) A copy of the Notification No. S.O. 896 (E) (Hindi and English (ii) The Calcutta Dock Workers versions) published in Gazette (Regulation of Employ- of India dated the 27th Octo- ment) Amendment ber, 1989 appointing the 1stApril, Scheme, 1989 published in 1991, as the date on which the Notification No. S.O. 1969 provisions of sub-rules (3) and in Gazette of India dated (4) of rule 115 of the Central the 26th August, 1989. Motor Vehicles Rules, 1989 shall come into force and the 1st day (iii) The Calcutta Chipping and of April, 1992 as the date on Painting Workers (Regula- which the provisions of sub-rule tion of Employment) (5) of the rule 115 of the said rule Amendment Scheme, 1989 shall come into force issued published in Notification No. under sub-rule (3) of rule 1 of the S.O. 2598 in Gazette of said rules. India dated the 14th Octo- ber, 1989. (15) A copy each of the following Notifications (Hindi and English (iv) The Dock Workers (Regula- versions) under sub-section(4) tion . of Employment) Of section 212 of the Motor Ve- Amendment Scheme, 1989 hicles Act, 1988: published In Notification No. S.O. 3139 in Gazette of (i) S.O. 681 (E) published in India dated the 16th De- Gazette of India dated the cember, 1989. [Placed in 30th August, 1969 specify .. Library. 598 No. LT 1030/ ing the maximum safe laden 90] weight of transport vehicles having two-axl. rigid chasis (12) A copy of the the Notification No. with a maximum safe laden S.O. 680(E) (Hindi and English weight of 16.2 tonn8S and 7 Papers Laid MAY 29,1990 Papers Laid 8

with a maximum safe laden [Trans/ation b eight of 6.0 tonnes shall be 15 per cent higher than the Indian Instltut. af Legal Metrology maximum safe laden weight (Amendment) Rul.., 1110 and Statement specified in respect of such for delay In laying th... paper. vehicles under the said notification. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF FOOD ANDCIVIL SUPPLIES (ii) A copy of the Central Motor (SHRI RAM PUJAN PATEL): I beg to lay on Vehicles (Amendment) the Table: Rules, 1989 published in Notification No. G.S.R. (1) A copy of the Indian Institute of 933(E) in Gazette of India Legal Metrology (Amendment) dated the 28th October, Rules, 1990 (Hindi and English , 989 together with a corri- Versions) published in Notification gendum thereto published No. G.S.R. 190 in Gazette of India in Notification No. G.S.R. dated 31 st March. 1990 under sub- 132 (E) dated the 9th March section (4) of section 83 of the 1990. (Placed in Library. See Standards of Weights and Meas- No. l T 1031/90) ures Act. 1976.

Report of the Comptroller and Auditor (2) A statement (Hindi and English General of India (No.5 of 1989) Union Versions) showing reasons for Government (Commerclal,)-Natlonal delay in laying the papers men- Mln.r.' Development Corporation Ltd. tioned at (1) above. [Placed in library. See No. LT 1034190] THE MINISTER OF STEElAND MINES AND MtNISTER OF LAW AND JUSTICE [English] (SHAI DINESH GOSWAMI): I beg to lay on the Table a co~ of the Report (Hindi and Annual Repon. and Reviews on the English versions) of the Comptroller and working of National 1n_ltute of Public Auditor General of India (No. 5 of 1989)- Cooperation and ChId D8velopmen1 New Union Government (Commercial)-National Deihl for 1188-81 and Central Social Mineral Development Corporation Limited Welfar. Boards, New DeIhl for 1988-89 under article 151 (1) of the Constitution. and statements tor delay In laying the.. (Placed in LiQrary. S99 No. l T 1032190] paper.

.Slatement Correcting reply given on THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE 17.5.1990 to USQNo. 9136 re: Sugar- DEPARTMENT OF WOMEN AND CHILD cane Production DEVELOPMENT IN THE MIN1STRY OF WELFARE (SHRIMATI USHA SINGH): I THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND beg to lay on the Table- M1NISTEROF CIVIL AVIATION (SHRI ARIF MOHAMMAD KHAN): On behalf of Shri Nittsh Kumar I beg to lay on the Table a (1) (i) A copy of the Annual Report statement (Htndl and English versions) (Hindi and English versions) Corractingthe reply gIven on 17th May. 1990 of the National Institute of to lJnstarred Question No. 9136 by Shnmati Public Cooperation and Basava Rajeshwari and Sarvashri Prakash Child Development, New V. Pat.1 and G.S. BasavaraJ regarding sugar- Delhi, for the year 1988-89 cane production. [Placed in lIbrary. Sse No. atong with Audited Ac- LT 1033190] counts. 9 Mess. from R.S. JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Legislative Council Sill 10

(ji) A copy of the Review (Hindi passed by the Rajya Sabha at its and English versions) by the sitting held on the 28th May I 1990." Government on the working of the National Inst~ute of (it) IIln accordance with the provisions Public Cooperation and of sub-rule (6) of rule 186 of the Child Development, New Rules of Procedure and Condud of Delhi, for the year 1988-89. Business in the Aajya Sabha: I am directed to return herewith the Union (2) A statement (HIndi and English Duties of Excise (Distribution) versions) showing reasons for Amendment Bill, 1990, which was delay in laying the papers men- passed by the Lok Sabha at its tioned at (1) above. [Placed in sitting hetd on the 24th May, 1990 Library, See No. LT 10351901 and transmitted to Rajya Sabha for its recommendations and to state (3) (i) A copy of the Annual Report that this House has no recommen- (Hindi and English versions) dations to make to the Lok Sabha in of the Central Social Wel- regard to the said Bill." fare Board, New Delhi, for the year 1988-89 along with (iii) "In accordance with the provisions Audited Accounts. of sub-rule (6) of rule 186 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of (ii) A copy of the Review (Hindi Business in the Rajya Sabha, I am and E ngl is h versions) by the directed to feturn herewith the Government on the working Additional Duties of Excise (Goods of the Central Social Wel- of Special' Importance) Amend- fare Board, New Delhi, for ment Bill, 1990, which was passed the year 1988-89. by the Lok Sabha at its sitting held on the 24th May, 1990 and trans- (4) A statement (Hindi and English mitted to the Rajya Sabha for its versions) showing reasons for recommendations and to state that delay in laying the papers men- this House has no recommenda- tioned at (1) above. [Placed in tions to make to the Lok Sabha in Library. 599 No. l T 1036190] regard to the said Bill."

11.02 hrs. 11.021/2 hr•.

MESSAGES FROM RAJYA SABHA LEGISLATIVE COUNCilS BILL. 1990

[English] A. passed by Ralva Sabha

SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I have to SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir. I lay on report the following messages received from the Table the Legislative Councils Bill, 1990, the Secretory-General of Rajya Sabha:- as passed by Rajya Sabha.

(i) "In accordance WIth the provisions of rule 111 of the Rules of Proce- dure and Conduct of Business in ( Interruptions) the Rajya Sabha, I am directed to enclose a copy of the legislative SHAt DINESH SINGH (Pratapgarh): Mr. Councils Bill. 1990 which has been Speaker. Sir, yesterday we had made our 11 Legislative MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 12

[Sh. Oinesh Singh] SHRI DINESH SINGH: You have been saying all the time. (Interruptions) Sir, first position clear regarding the difficulty we are of all, our objection is, on their not placing facing in the absence of the Government not certain documents. The documents we had placing certain documents on the Table of asked for, were the documents in the Prime the House. You are aware that for quite Minister's Secretariat, concerning Bofors. some time, allegations are being made They have still not made it available to the against our party against Individuals in the House, despite apromise made by the Prime party on the basis of some information which Minister himself in this House. This is the the then opposition and now the Govern- regard they show to their commitment to the ment seems to have. All this time we have House. They have not made that available. been requesting them to let the House have Now, they have the documantfrom Sweden. that information, let the country have that They are not even willing to place it on th~ information so that those responsible could Table of the House. This is setting up a vary be proceeded against speedily. On one dangerous precedent. The right of this Par- pretext or the other. the Government is liament to information is being curtailed by avoiding plaCing these papers on the Table some excuse or the other of this Govern- of the House only to continue to create this ment. (Interruptions) Illusion. Obviously, they have nothing spe~ cific against anybody in our party. Other- SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA (Bankura): wise, they should have been the first to come You please remember what you dId when out and place the papers and say that these you were in the Government. (Interruptions) are the facts. Even now, dunngtheelections, they said that within 30 days we shall collect SHRI P.R. KUMAAAMANGALAM (Sa- all this information and give it. Now six 30 lem): Do you want to repeat it? (Interrup- days have passed and they have yet not tions) revealed anything more than what we reve- led earlier. They have been waiting to get SHAI DINESH SINGH: We did not ref- some documents from Sweden. That docu- useto place any document. In fact, we set up ment is also available to them. Now they are a Parliamentary Committee to look into it. not willing to place it on account of some So. our record, on that accounts, is abso- agreement, they say. they have made with lutely clear. (Interruptions) the Government of Sweden not to make it public. As such. to this we take serious SHRI BASUDEB ACHAAIA: A Parlia- objection. it is on account of the resolution mentary Committee with Shri B. Shank- passed in Swedish Parliament that these arnand as Chairman! (Interruptions) documents should be made available to India. Bofore that the Government was not SHAI DINESH SINGH: The Members willing. It is the Parliament of Sweden that of Opposition were invited to be on the has made it available. Parliament of Sweden Committee. Now, the question is, is it impor- has said that this should be made available. tantas to who head the committee is it But this Government is not willing 10 make it emportant to be on the Committee to get availabletothelndian Parliament. This isour information. This is the kind of excuse they objection. ThIS Government only wishes to made earlier which is the kind of excuse they conceal this and give an impression of a are continuing to make. (Interruptions) continuing doubt in public mind, while they have the document. Sir, I am not going into that. My trouble is that the supporters of the Government are even more active in trying to conceal some- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE thing. (Interruptions) All that we ara saying (Bolpur): Who says that there is a doubt? is that apart from the commitment made by ( Interruptions) the Prime Minister to this House. this Gov- 13 Legislative JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Council Bill. 14 arnment ... (Interruptions) place all these papers on the Table of the house, immediately. (Interruptions) SHAI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Why did you not get it in your time? (Interruptions) [ Translation]

SHAI DINESH SINGH: Apart from that, SHRI VASANT SATHE: Sir, with your what is happening, now by not placing the kind perm ission. I would like to place two document from Sweden is that the basic important points before the House. The first right of the House. (Interruptions) point is that yesterday we had raised an issue about Punjab. The Minister of Home [Translation] Affairs was also present and he had stated that a very wrong procedure has been started MR. SPEAKER: Yesterday, he re- in Punjab and it has been increasing. The sponded to your Questions. people have entered in the Gurudwaras with their guns and again Gurudwaras have been [English] becoming military bases. It is a very serious issues. Today it has been reported that a The Parliamentary Affairs Minister Shri large number of innocent people were mur- P. Upendra, r think, responded to your que- dered brutally. These persons were the la- ries yesterday. bourers, who had come there from other states. I would like to ask the Minister of SHRI DINESH SINGH: He responded Home Affairs whether he still thinks that the in a manner which left more doubts than any Governor of Punjab has been working satis- clarification he gave. But interestingly factorily and trying to normalise the situation enough, he managed to get into the newspa- in order to create proper atmosphere for pers that he was willing to share all the holding to election in Punjab. Why the Gov- information. Not only in the newspapers, but ernment is not recalling the Governor from also in the TV and the Radio which is con- the State? .. (Int9rruptions) I would not like trolled by him. Now, you see, how free he to say as to who wants to recall him, but the wants the Press and the media to be! Having Deputy Prime Minister himself is in favour of done that, if he i~ honest, he should now recalling him. How long will the Government places it on the Table of the House. (Inter- wait. how many people should be allowed to ruptions) die then? When innocent people were murdered in the funeral procession of Mautvi SHAI M.J. A~AA (Kishanganj): Where Farooq in Kashmir, the Governor of the State is he? (Interruptions) was changed. Now the question is as to how many people should be allowed to be mur- [Translation] derf3d in Punjab to replace the Governor of Punjab? ... (Interruptions) ... The second MR. SPEAKER: As Shn Satya Pal pres- point that has been stated just now very ent in the House? politely in the House and we are also saying this thing again and again that Parliament of ( Interruptions) the country. representative of the people are Supreme. The authority of the Parliament [English] can not be done away with by any Govern· ment by entering into an agreement with any SHAI DINESH SINGH: Sir. in the ab- one. You may please listen to my point with sence of the Minister and their intention to patience (Interruptions) Your party was share the information with this House. we proclaim ing about that as soon as it came to have only you to proted the rights of the power. it will disclose the name. within fif- House and the Members. Therefore, I would teen days. Shri Somnath Chatterjee a very request you to direct the Government to powerful supporter of the present Govern- 15 Legislative MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 16

(Sh. Vasant Sathe] [English] ment, is saying that the present Government SHRI M.J.AKBAR: This will not coma in has done that work which the previous the radio or Doordarshan. (/nt9mJptions) Congress Government could not do. What has been done by the present Government? [Translation] The Government got the documents from the Swedish Government. The present SHAI VASANT SATHE: It will not come Government has done a good job. Now what in Doordarshan. (Ints"uptions) The present will the Government do with the documen1s Government wanted to bring bad name to which it has reoeived?,.. (Interruptions) the leader of our party and his famity mem- ... Shri Somna~h Chatterjee is going to tell us bers. They had been repeating this thing about it. You tell me as ,to what you will do again and again and made .propagandas with those documents? If the documents are during elections. I would like to make a of secret nature. ~ the Swedish Government request to you that these documents may have put any restrictions on our Govern- not be ooncealed from the House and the ment. the Government can not publicise it. people Of the country I all these documents How will the Government disclose the con- should be placed before the House. (Inter- tents of those documents of CBI and to the ruptions) Investigators? In which enquiry will these documents be utilised? I do not understand [English] whether these documents will be disclosed only to Shri Somnath Chatterjee or Shri SHRI l.K. ADVANI (New Delhi): Mr. Jaswant Singh To whom the Government Speaker Sir, on Friday afternoon, there was will disclose the contents of these docu- a meeting in your Chamber of all the party ments? . (Interruptions) leaders. I think this particular point which Mr. Dinesh Singh has raised, namely, that the [English] Government should place before the House the papers pertaining the inquiry on Bofors, the Terms of Reference in respect of the SHRI SOMNA TH CHA TIERJEE: Does inquiry proposed to be held about Meham Mr. Sathe have any credibility on this Issue? and also about the airbus deal was dis- (Interruptions) Neither he nor his leader nor cussed there. I think we need not subject the his party has any credibility on this issue. House to a repeat performance of all that ( Interruptions) .. because on that day, the Government had categorically assured that before the Ses- [Translation 1 sion ends they will lay the papers on the Table of the House. I was not happy with the Statement made by the Minister of Parlia- SHRI VASANT SATHE: I am saytngthis mentary Affairs yesterday in which he re- thing that thiS Government is not ready to ferred to the Swedish Government agreeing dIsclose the conttlnts of these documents with something. We have nothing to do wtth even to the speaker The Government is not the Swedish Government and there are ready to tell even to the Head of the Sover- matters particularly pertaining to Bofors on eign Parliament Is the Government a slave which not only the Government but we aU of of the Swedish Government? What has us. who support the Government. have fought happened to thiS Government. (Interrup- the electIon. It IS on the baSIS of Bofors tions) It IS clear now that the Government is scandal, we have fought the election. And aware of one thing Even If a Single members therefore, we owe it to the people to see that of our party would havE' been Involved in it. . evel)< available information with us IS shared (/nt8"Uptions) The leader of our party IS not with the Parliament and the people. As I said at all InvolwJd In It (Interruptions) the other day. very often the controversy 17 Legislativ9 JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Council Bill 18 arises when we say and start underlining tall before you Sir, and you can decide and ask papers' and by this, you are subjecting the the Leaders of different parties to come and House to a kind of agony which need not be see them. Jt has happened in the past. Why inflicted on it. Therefore, I say that it is for the are you saying this? It is nothing new ...... Speaker to decide as to what is relevant to be ( Int9"uptions) placed onthe Tabh~ofth8 House. It is neither for the Opposition nor for the Government to PROF. N.G. RANGA : No, no. decide as to what is really meant by •all papers'. It is for the Speaker to decide. So, MR. SPEAKER: let him have his say. the assurance given by the Government is Nothing is being decided like this. let us that before the House adjourns sine die they hear him. shall place the documents regarding the three issues before the House. I think we SHRISOMNATHCHATIERJEE: If the should be spared from this repeated on hour Government feels that there is any difficulty. debate on this matter. (Interruptions) in making the papers public, then it is for you to decide as the custodian of this House. But

SHAI DINESH SINGH: By I all papers' their object is not that. The object is to create we mean papers in the Prime Minister's a situation; they want a excuse not to pass Secretariat on Bofors, nototherpapers. (Inter- the Constitution Amendment Bills. I charge ruptions) them. This is their real excuse. They want to find out an excuse to go out of this House ...... [ Translation] (Interruptions) . Shri Dinesh Singh clearly said: Even if ~ is the last day of the session, SHRI BHAJAN LAL (Faridabad): Mr. they would be happy. But why do they have Speaker, Sir I would like to say something to say this just now? He had earlier said about Punjab. that ...... (Intsrruptions) . I am sure he will never deny that. They may be placed on the MA. SPEAKER: When issue of Punjab Table of the House on the last day of the comes up, I will call you. Mr. Ranga. present session. Why are they demanding it every day? Therefore, my feeling is that they ( Interruptions) want an excuse to go out and not to pass this Constitution Amendment BilL ..... (Int9rrup- [English] tions)

PROF. N.G. RANGA (Guntur): Mr. SHAI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE Speaker, Sir, I request you nottotake upthis (Dumdum): Sir, there is absolutely no doubt onerous responsibility ... (Interruptions) ... My that the opposition deserves cooperation honourable friend has made a gesture by from the Treasury Benches. because this placing the responsibility on you. House in this session has demonstrated the constructive cooperation that is available SHRI SOMNATH CHATIERJEE: Why from the opposition. They thought the Fi- not? nance Bill to be very ,important and aHowed it to be passed without much discussion. PROF. N.G. RANGA: He said that we aU That shows their sense of responsibility to fought elections on these papers. You also the House and to the Treasury Benches. fought this election on these papers and we have elected you as the Speaker. We do not I have no doubt in my mind, as Shri want you to be a party to this. Advanji has put it. that the whole country deserves to know. not only the Members of SHRI SOMNATH CHATIEAJEE: There Parliament, because we have gone across Is a precedent in the past also so far as such the towns and the countryside talking about papers are concerned. They may be placed Bofors. and. therefore. the entire country is 19 Legislative MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 20

[Sh. Nirmal Kanti Chatterjee] we want them to support the proposal that all the papers be laid at your table. Let them see entitled to know, to the extent available, the what are the relevant papers for exposition facts of the Bofors case, which was not to the leaders and what can be the public allowed to be done due to hon. Shri Shank- property of the entire country. arananad's eminent efforts. [Translation] I have also another thing in mind. It is not only important for the country as a whole, it SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almora): Mr. has become very important for the opposi- Speaker, Sir, the news about atomic prepar- tion party also, because within their party edness of Pakistan often appears in news- there is a certain turmoil, there is the ques- papers and concern is expressed over it tion about leadership and they also want to inside and outside this House. A news has know to what extent they can pin him down. appeared recently that with the help of Therefore. I think the Treasury Benches American Satellite, the Government of Paki- should offer cooperation to the opposition stan has made a film which shows that benches also. My only doubt is, what is the special equipment are being Instaled in Mi- root of cooperation? I have a lurking doubt in rage and F -16 planes to carry atom bomb my mind whether or not, the best form of manufactured at Kahuta Atomic Power Plant cooperation wi" be not to lay the papers on in Pakistan. the Table of the House. Why I put it like that, is because if the papers are laid on the Table The present sItuation in Pakistan is of of the House, they WIll be forcIng the opposi- great concern. Conflict is going on between tion to get away from the consistent behav- army and the Government of Pakistan. The iour over the last forty years; they will have to Muslims. who had migrated from India are pass this NInth Schedule Amendment Bill, brutally murdered in Sind province. It is quite which they have refused to do uptll now, they possible that PakIstan may use thiS bomb Will have to allow the Constitution (Sched· against India to divert the attention of its uled Castes) Order Amendment Bill to be people from its internal matters and India will passed. If these are passed, the Treasury have to face destruction. What measures Benches will force Inconsistency on the have been taken by the Government to face present day oppositIon. Therefore, I am not this situation? The House and the country sure, Sir, what exactly IS the root of coopera· should be taken into confidence about this tlon. We, on our part demand that all the issue because we are worried about it. papers should be laid. That is the consistency from our side but consistency from [English] their side requires that the Government should cooperate so that they are not in trouble. SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, the democracy has achieved another major lastly, Sir, I do reiterate that all papers, victory at a time of historic change. all over by all papers I mean papers which are not the world. Burma after a momentous popular irrelevant, may be laid at your table and you uprising which forced the military authorities may decide whether or not certain papers to hold the first free elections in three dec- are relevant or not. All through the discus- ades, has convincingly rejected the promili· sion we have discovered that they inSist on tary National Unity Party and voted for the irrelevant papers In particular. Whenever National League for Democracy. The people they say all, they underline the irrelevant made light of the restriction, restraints and papers. We know, Sir, there are manysecre- hurdles put in their way by the military au- cise involved Can we or can they in their thorities, and gave the forces supporting sunses demand that such secrecise be laid freedom and democracy an overwhelming down? So, we support their contention and mandate. 21 L9gislative JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Council Bill 22

MR. SPEAKER: Are you reading a SHRI VASANT SATHE (Wardha): The Statement? situation remains the same, either it is 15 days or 2 days. (Interruptions) SHAt P. CHIDAMBARAM: No, I am consulting my notes. SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: The Congress had not done anything about i1 MR. SPEAKER: 'think you will be more during the last ten years. All of you know that effective if you speak extempore. some developments have taken place.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: It is imperaw MR. SPEAKER: So are you happy? tive that the military authorities transfer power at once to the elected representatives of the ( Interruptions) people, and release immediately all their leaders, who have been kept under arrest in SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: I would a bid to intimidate them and the supporters of like to request that the Government should democracy. Any attempt to subvert the will of make an annound:ement to this effect that the people can only have the most tragic that Bill will be introduced and passed within consequences for Burma. this Session and the statehood will be provided to DQlhi. (Intsrruption8) Sir, I congratulate the people of Burma. We congratulate the National League for MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Democracy and we sincerely hope that the Home Affairs wants to say something. military authorities will tr:anster power to the elected representatives of the people of ( Interruptions) Burma and democracy will be ushered in Burma. We congratulate the people of Burma SHRI BHAJAN LAL (Faridabad): Mr. and I ask all our friends here to join us in Speaker, Sir, I would like to say two points congratulating the people of Burma. about Punjab before the statement of the hon. Mtnister of Home Affairs. (Interrup- [T rans/ation ] tions)

SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA (South MR. SPEAKER: Why are you making a Delhi): Mr. Speaker. Sir, I would like to say noise? Mr. Khurana you have just now spo- that. .. ken. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Madan Lal, please THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS do not read out. You can speak extempore. (SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED): Mr. Speaker, Sir, in regard to statehood to Delhi. .. (Interruptions) ( Interruptions)

SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will not read out, r would like SHRI VASANT SATHE: He has raised to submit that a promise had been made in an issue. this House for providing statehood to Delhi. Every time this promise has been made. I [English] would like to say that the hon.Prime Minister had stated on 12th Aprilthat statehood woutd He ;s willing to respond. be provided to Delhi within a day or two. Now only two days have left of this Session. I [Translation] would like to know whether that Bill woufd be introduced or not. h should be passed in this It is partiality. It can not happen. (Inter- Session. ( Interruptions) ruptions) 23 Legis/atlvB MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 24

MR. SPEAKER: I do not know what he [ Translation] is going today. The hen. Minister wants to say something. So I have called him. MR. SPEAKER: He is saying that he will answer your question also. [English] ( Interruptions) I do not know what he going to say. I have allowed him. I do not know what he is MR. BHAJAN LAL: I would like to say going to speak. Let us hear him. about Punjab issue. (Interruptions)

( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Several Members want to speak about Punjab, I will call all of them. SHRI VASANT SATHE: Mr. Sathe, you can respond after his statemlent. (Interrup- ( Interruptions) tions) SHRI VASANT SATHE: Mr. Home MR. SPEAKER: He should should Minister, you should have big heart because speak about all Issues not on only one issue. you are the Minister of Home Affairs. (Inter- ( Int9"Uptions) ruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sathe, you can [English] respond after his statement. ( Inte"uptions) (Interruptions) PROF. P.J. KURIEN: I am on a point of [English] order.

PROF. P.J. KURIEN (Mavelikara): Sir, I AN HON. MEMBER: Underwhatrule? am on a point of order. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed Mr. order. Kurien to raise a point or order.

( Interruptions) PROF. P.J.KURIEN: You are the custodian, Sir, of the rights of the Members of this House. Many Members are raising very [ Translation] important points. (/nteffuptions)

SHRI BHAJAN LAL: I do not want that MR. SPEAKER: Which rule has been the hon. Minister of Home Affairs speaks violated? first. This is not the way. (Interruptions) PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Please allow me [English] to form ulate ...

SHAI KAMAL CHAUDHRY (Hashiar- MR. SPEAKER: I am allowing you, and pur): Sir, people are migrating from Punjab. hearing you. (Interruptions) You must also listen to us. PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Many Members MR. SPEAKER: After hearing from Mr. are raiSing important matters, on which the Mufti, I am going to call you. reaction of the Government is needed. I am sorry to say that we, the Members of this (Interruptions) House feel aggrieved... (Intenvptions) We 25 Legislative JYAISTHA 8. 1912 (SAKA) Council8ill 26

feel aggrieved that the Home Minister is SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEEO: reactions only to a certain section. He is The issues raised by some members are acting like an yes-man of the BJP. If he is generally about laying of papers and about reacting, he shoUld reacts to similar requests investigation of Meham episode. The Gov- from this side also. Otherwise, we cannot ernment cannot issue a notification until a allow him to react. Punjab also is very impor- judge of the Supreme Court is appointed ... tant. So, let him lis.h~n to Mr. Bhajan Lalon (Interruptions) The House was assured that Punjab issue, and listen to similar issues, a judge of the Supreme Court would be and let him react then. He cannot react appointed to conduct an enquiry into this selectively. We cannot allow that.. (Interrup- matter. (Interruptions) tions) Sir, you should protect us. MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. MR. SPEAKER: I am going to protect you; you are we" protected. [English J

SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGALAM: It is ( Interruptions) important to bring to the notice of the House that on the Punjab issue, two adjournment SHRI VASANT SATHE: It is factually motions have been filed-one by a ruling incorrect. party member Mr. Raj Mangal Mishra and one from the Opposition, Mr. Harish Rawat. MR. SPEAKER: Mr.Sathe, listen to him. There are two adjournment motion on this; it The Minister is not yielding. (Interruptions) is such a serious matter, and we notice that that is not coming up today. Instead, he is MR. SPEAKER: You can raise your standing to reply to a question which has point after he finishes. been raised ten times. and been replied ten times. Every day, we are seening this drama. Let him finish. We would like to have a clear statement on the Punjab, if he wants to make it. After all, ( Interruptions) there people are being killed. What is this drama every day? (Interruptions) What about MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of the adjournment motions? order. Let me listen to the point he is making. Mr. Shankaranad, please be seated. [Translation] (I nt8rruptions) SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol 8agh): He is calling it a drama. Shri Kumaramangalam [English] should apologies. SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEEO: [Engli..,h] Why don't you listen to me? (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SPEAKER: He is not yielding. Dr. Shankaranand. [Transla.tion]

Please take your seat. I am permitting [Translation] Muftiji to respond to those issues which have been raised by you. Several Members have SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEEO: given notices about Punjab, I will call them Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Sitting judge of Su- also. After that he may reply to this issue preme Court was to be appointed for en- also. quiry. I wrote a letter to the Chief Justice .:.. Legislative MAV 29,1990 Council Bill 28

[Sh. Mufti Mohammad Say.ad] be an affront on the Chief Justice of India, ( Interruptions) stating that a Supreme Court Judge is needed. ( Interruptions) SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: I would like to draw the attention of the House to a [English] token strike by one lakh officers of the public sector undertakings. This token strike is part The Chief Justice is not in town; he is in of an ongoing agitation pending for the last the north east; he is not available. (Interrup- three years. The officers of the public sector tions) The terms of reference are with me. undertakings ara demanding scales of pay (Interruptions) But I cannot lay them on the and DA which are given to the officers of the Table of the House. It will be a bad prece- Central Government. Their case for getting dent. (Interruptions) Please be seated. (Inter- DA and scates of pay at the rate of Central ruptions) If a Notification is to be issued by Government is pending forthe lastfouryears. the Government to appoint a Surpreme Court The revision of their scales of pay and DA Judge to make an enquiry into the incident of has not taken place. It is a matter of regret Meham, we can issued the Notification if a that, inspite of the recommendations made Judge is available. But if the hon. members by a High Powered Committee and the want to discuss the terms of reference, I am Executives of 14 public sector undertakings, available; the terms of reference are with the Government has not yet decided about me. As far as Delhi Statehood is concerned, the revision of their scales of pay and Dear- Delhi will be given the Statehood. Delhi will ness Allowance. It is also surprising that be a State like any other State in India. It will when four Secretaries to the Government of be given full Statehood. Delhi being the India met the National Federation of the Capital, certain issues are related to the Officer's Association of the Central Public Central Government. We are bringing the Sector undertakings, they categorically stated Bill tomorrow: we are introducing the Bill that they had no mandate from the Govern- tomorrow. We want this Bill to be passed .... ment to take any decision or make any ( Interruptions) concrete effort. If these officers decision to go on an indefinite strike, the loss to the MR. SPEAKER: Shri 8abudeb Acharia. exchequer would be much larger than the amount involved in the settlement of their ( Interruptions) pay revision.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Nobody is PROF. N.G. RANGA: How many era res quarrelling with the Home Minister about the of rupees? Notification. The Notification appointing a Supreme Courts Judge can be issued only SHAI BASUDEB ACHARIA: I demand after the name of a judge is communicated. that the Government should make a state- But he has not the terms of reference we ment on the delay in the revision of pay and demand that the terms of reference should Darness Allowance of the officers to the be laid on the Table of the House. That has public sector undertakings and I request you nothing to do with the Chief Justice of India. to kindly direct the Government to come to a (Interruptions) Let him place them on the settlement with the officers of the Public Table of the House. (Interruptions) Sector Undertakings so that the indefinite strike is averted and the revision of pay and MR. SPEAKER: Shri Basudeb Acharia. allowances of the officers of the Public Sector Undertakings is settled without further delay. ( Int9"uptions) MR. SPEAKER: Shrlmati Gaeta Mukher- jee; do not take more than ten seconds SHAI SOMNATH CHAITERJEE: It will please. 29 Legislative JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Council Bill 30

SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE fleeing to Delhi and other towns of Haryana. (Panskura): Without wasting much time-I People have started fleeing from there in generally do not-I would say, I agree with large number. It has become difficult for Shri Basudeb Acharia. anyone to survive there Clnd there is no element of peace in that state. As such, I I had also given a notice on the same would request the Government to take con- subject and I fully support Basudebji in order crete steps in this direction without any de- no~ to repeat all those arguments. Today is lay. Statement of the Home Minister and the the day of the token strike-twenty-ninth. Prime Minister have given, various assur- Today .s the day of the strike and naturally if ances in this regard, but what Government is the talks fail. This is a very justified demand. doing in this direction. (Interruptions) I hope that the Government will take into consideration this and avert the above sItu- MR. SPEAKER: Mr Bhajan Lal you may ation by agreeing to it. please resume your seat.

[ Tra,,),/ation ] SHAI BHAJAN LAL: You kindly tell us what the Government proposes to do in this SHRI BHAJAN LAL: Mr. Speaker, Sir, direction. Hthe Governor's work is not upto I would like to draw the attention ottha House the mark then he should be replaced by a and the Government towards the Punjab strong Governor. You are not fulfilling the Issue. I understand thatthe situation in Punjab promise that you had made during the elec- has turned so grim that it will draw the tion on the matter of Bofors. concern of the entire House. Accumulation of arms and ammunitions has once again MR. SPEAKER: Bhajan Lal ji, you have started in the Gurudwaras and we have raised the issue of Punjab and you have come to know that the process of fortification once again come back to the issue of Bofors. has also started outside the Gurudwaras You please be seated. You have already With a great deal of difficulty we had restored expressed your views regarding Punjab. peace in the Gurudwaras but accumulation of arms and ammunitions and fortification SHRI BHAJAN LAL: The Government has once again started, which is indeed an deliberately do not want to furnish the docu- Indication of danger. If this situation contin- ments relating to Bofors, so that suspicion ues unabated, the situation is Punjab will and doubts remain in the hearts of the people. turn very grievous. You must have read in If It was confidential then how did it come in today's newspaper and heard about the 13 the cabinet? When a matter comes to the poverty stick people who had come from cabinet, it no longer remains confidential. Bihar to earn their wages, were made to When the documents have reached the stand in a line and gunned down. Apart from Government they loose their confidentiality. this 15-16 people were gunned down in Mr. Speaker, Sir, they made a commitment separate incidents at various places. This before you and the House. 31 st is fast ap- has become a daily feature. proaching and the session is soon gojng to end when will they furnish them? (IntBrrup- SHRI VASANT SATHE (Wardha): Why tions) the M. P's from Bihar are not saying anything MR. SPEAKER: You have already made over this issue? your point regarding Punjab. No please take your seat. Uma BharatL SHRI BHAJAN LAL: In Punjab there is not a single day when 25-30 people are not ( Interruptions) killed in separate incident. Firing takes place daify and the sltuattOn in Punjab has deterio- KUMARI UMA SHARATt (Khajuraho): rated to such an extent that people are Mr. Speaker ... evacuating that region In large numbers and 31 Legislative MAY 29.1990 Council Bill 32

[English] out the middlemen. The worst thing that has happened is this that even women arts being MR. SPEAKER: Let us hear the lady kidnapped. Mr. Speaker. Sir you are aware Members. of the situation faced by a girl belonging to an Indian Society who is released by the ( Interruptions) abductors and the hurdless that are faced at the time of her marriage. In Taran-Taran I MR. SPEAKER: I do not ignore your came across an old journalist named "Pa_ lady Members also. gal". 1asked him to teU something about the situation in Punjab. He told me only one thing [Translation] saying that from this you will know the circumstances under which people in Taran Taran, KUMAR' UMA SHARATI: Mr. Speaker, Batala. Gurdaspur and Amritsar are living. Sir, ~ am thankful to you for having given me He uttered just one sentence that he did not a chance to speak. Recently a five member want to say anything since he wanted to Parliamentary delegation of B.J.P. had gone survive and the person who openly states to Punjab. Here I am giving information the facts is not allowed to survive. I think we regarding state of affairs in Punjab because cannot even imagine the terror faced by the such a reference has come. Bhajan lalji, has people while sitting here in Delhi. The sec- also mentioned in this regard. I am not aware ond thing we same and which has published whethel he has gone to those districts or he in today's newspaper also, that labourers is saying simply on the basis of newspapers have been gunned down Prior to this inci- reports. but I had gone there and through den~s of abduction and attacks on Harijans you I want to place before the House border and Scheduled Castes in Punjab were very district, the situation prevailing there. We few. The reason being that they are very toured Amritser, Gurdaspur, Ferozepur and poor and they felt that since they could not Faridkot, where terrorist are very active. harm anyone no one would harm them and Atter going there we went round those vilas such they were living in villages quielty. lages and towns where gun s following ter- But now that thing is over. They are being rorists are virtually calling tho shots. When attacked constantly irrespecting of the place. we met people there and talked to them. Bombs are being hurled on them and are Certain facts came to light and we have being gunned down every day. When we gathered those facts. I wish to summarise 'went to 8atala, we had the opportunity to them and place all the facts before you. I also meet these people. They said that were in want the hon. Home Min~,ter to pay attention grave danger because they assumed that to this and assure the people living in Punjab since they do not harm angone as they were that they will be given protection. The most poor and they were earning their livelihood dangerous thing that has been r)arrate by the by cleaning and sweeping they would not be people in Tarantaran, Batala and Amritsar is attacked but at present they have also that incidents of Kidnappings have increased become their victims. I am surprised to see to alarming proportions as compared to thf3 that a single person's death in Salaiah or incidents that Occurred one and a half years Fetehpur raises lot of hue and cry but on the ago and still more dangerous is the fact that contrary no one is concerned about the large people involved in these incidents are well number of people who are brutally being known to the police, since they live in cities gunned down in Punjab (Interruptions) and towns and thiS is an open secret. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a matter of great regret that We are not so much distressed by the even political personalities are involved as deaths at saliah or Fatehpur but are much middlemen. It is not my job to inform as to more distressed to those whose by the fact which party they belong. It is Governments that it is being politicised. jOb to find t out. What wiJI be left for the Government to do If I roaveal the name of the party. As such it is the Government Job to find ( Interruptions) 33 L~jslat;ve JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Council Bill 34

MR. SPEAKER: Umaji, please finish it Therefore. I , through this House and on now. behalf of the Members present here, congratulate those Hindu and Sikh brothers of ( Interruptions) Punjab. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: You please take your MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. seat. I am calling you. Now I will read out.

KUMARI UMA BHARATI: I am complet- ( Inte"uptions) ing my statement and in the end I would like to request that elections should be held in KUMARI UMA SHARATI: Hon. Home Punjab, people in Punjab want elections and Minister is present here. He should give an our party is also willing to have ejections in assurance that before holding election in Punjab. But my submission is this that elec- Punjab, adiv~ies to deal with the terrorist tion in Punjab should be held when peace is with a heavy hand will be initiated. restored in that region. At present gun is dominant whether it is day or night. As such MR. SPEAKER: Umaji, please take Mr. Speaker, Sir. my request to the Home your seat. With regard to the raised by Shri Minister and to Shri LK.Gujaral who is not Bhajan Lal and Umaji, I want to inform the present is this that I he should not mention House that sand Shri Prem Kumar Dhumal, time and again regarding holding of elec- Janardan Yadav, Rasa Singh Rawat, tions in Punjab as it affects the morale of the Yuvraj,m Kashiram Rana, Madan lal Khur- officers there because they are reluctant to ana and Satya Jatiya also want to speak on arrest anyone for the simple reasons as to Punjab. I am not able to find time for them. what will happen to them in case that person The Minister of Home Affairs wants to say IS elected as a legIslate tomorrow. As such sQmething about it. I want that he should my submission is that there should be elec- clarify the whole position. tions in Punjab. but not before the terrorists lay down their arms and stop their activities. ( Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Umaji, it is over. 12.00 hrs.

( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. I have called the Hon. Home Minister. Let me KUMARI UMA BHARATI: I am con- conduct the House. cluding my topic. it is a matter of great shame for us that we are not able to extend security SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: to our brethren living in Punjab. (Interrup- Mr. Speaker I Sir, I have listened the views of tions) I am concluding in one sentence. the Members of Parliament very attentively and I appreciate the concern expressed by MR. SPEAKER' Please conclude in them over Punjab. Terrorism still continues one sentence. there. Those who have read the news-papers, they must be aware that our security KUMARI UMA SHARATI: We feel a forces have captured a large number of sense of pride when we see the people of weapens from the terrorists in the border Punjab. (Interruptions) areas of Kashmir, and Punjab. Just now Umaj; said about the elections in Punjab. MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Whenever the prospects of elections in Punjab are discussed there, people express KUMARIUMABHARATI: Althoughthey fear that terrorists who still reign there may have suff~red loss of life and property yet get elected to the State Assembty and pose they are hearing close Hindi Sikh relations. a danger to the country. Keeping in view of 35 L8gislativ9 MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 36

[Sh. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed] Golden Temple and other Gurudwaras were used by terrorists which later became a big the prevailing law and order situation there. challenge to the Government. Now our effort

para-military forces -BSFt CAPF and out .. is not to allow gurudwaras to be made dens. standing officers of local police have been Shri Simran Jeet Singh Mann tried to go deployed there... (Interruptions) We have inside the temple with his followers. H. was raised the fencing already done in 500 KW. not allowed to enter from the main gate, then We have also started giving identity-cards to he enter~ from other gate. from the back the people on the left belt of the border and side. We have given instructions that no- deployed army along with BSF because body whether it is Mann Group or another arms are being smuggled on large scale and Group should be aHowed to enter the temple terrorists are crossing over the border in with arms.

I Pakistan. Shri Mangat as additional DGP has been posted in the Gurudaspur and SHAI BHAJAN LAL: The Home Minis~ Amritsar districts to make best use of joint ter has said that they entered from back operation. Some labourers from Bihar were gate. then what was the Government doing? attacked. The terrorist make any person found walking their target. It is happened SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEEO: I earlier too. (Interruptions) was saying that some of the followers of the Shri Simran Jeet Singh Mann had swords SHRI KASHIRAM CHHABILDAS RANA and "Kerpan' with them. (Interruptions) (Surat): Police Stations are closed in Please listen to me. Later they went back. Ferozpur after 6 PM. and terrorists do their None of them entered with arms. We will job with impunity. (Interruptions) take care 01 its and there will be no compro- mise in this respect. The Government will not SHAI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEEO: allow the Golden Temple to be reconverted The Government has taken all step to deal into arms sanctuary. Presently none is in- with terrorism and there is no complacency side with gun or pistol. All have gone from in this regard. In order to normalise the there. si~uation the Government is doing what is humanily possible. whatever is in its power AN HON. MEMBER: It there anyone to mobilise the civil administration and to else. ensure coordination among various security forces. (Interruptions) SHAI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: There is none from his followers. So far as [English] the question of election is concerned, I want to say that. .. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: He is not yielding ... MR. SPEAKER: Bularaji he is not yield- ( Interruptions) ing, please take your seat.

SHRI P. CHIOAMBARAM: Sir, will the SHRIMATI RAJINOER KAUR BULARA han. Minister confirm or deny that in the (Ludhiana): The Sikhs have the right to month of May the numberof innocent people worship there. Every Punjabi has this right. killed has crossed 2001 SHAI VASANT SATHE: With gun also. [ Translation] SHRI RAJINDER KAUR BULARA: The SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: CRPF people hava been posted their with W. have faken all possible steps to contain arms on behalf of Government. which is an terrorism. Before the Blue State Operation, insult of religion. 37 Legislative JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Council BiN 38

SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAVEED: I [English] want to say that the people of Punjab are not with terrorists. They want peace. H you You havealso been dealing with the compare the figures of last year you will see situation. that agriculture and industrial production in Punjab is more this year. I can give you the [ Translation] figures ... (Interruptions) Please listen to me. But I want to say MR. SPEAKER: Pleasetakeyourseat. that PoliticaL ..

SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAVEED: SHRIMATI BIMAL KAUR KHALSA Agriculture and industrial production has (Ropar): Congress Party is fully responsible increased in Punjab as compared to that of for the situation of Punjab. (Inte"uptions) last year. MR. SPEAKER: Simal Kaurji, please SHRI VASANT SATHE: It is happening take your seat. due to hard work of the labourers of Bihar, credit should go to them. Do not say merely (Interruptions) that production is Increasing. SHAI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: I SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: I mean to say that without the political proc- want to say that the people of Punjab are ess ... cooperating i" nor-malising situation in Punjab. SHRIKAMALCHAUDHRV: Thegho~ of Congress is still haunting them. They will SHRI VASANT SATHE: The people know the reality when they would be beaten are cooperating. by them.

SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: And it is our assessment. .. (Interruptions) [English]

[English J So long as these people are hobnobbing with the terrorists, the Punjab situation will continue. I know that they have been SHRt P. CHIDAMBARAM: Two hundred hobnobbing with them ...... (Interruptions) people have been killed in May, Is It correct or not? rTranslation]

[ Translation] SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEEO: In my opinion there is no substitute of SHRt VASANT SATHE: With the in- political process. It is not possible for the crease in cooperation of the people, killings police and army to run the state by them- are also increasing. What is being done by selves unless there is co-operation from the the Government in this regard? public. I observed that in Kashmir terrorism was dealt with in a co-ordinated manner SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: because there was a total application of The history of Punjab is known to you. how authority in that State. That type of co-ordi- it happened and what happened and how nation does not exist in Punjab. There is 8 the situation was brought in control, you neEtd to revamps the State's administration know this also. to some extent. (Interruptions) 39 Legislative MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 40

SHRI D.J. TANDEL (Daman & Diu): Mr. SHAI D. J. TANDEL: The hon. Home Speaker, Sir, on tha 23rd 1...... (/nt9"Up- Minister gave an assurance that the problem tions) would be solved in two days. We have ap-- proached him and han. Shri Subodh Kant MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed Shri Sahay many times but they are not paying randel to speak. Please sit down. attention to our grievances. Efforts were made to solve the problem from here in ( Interruptions) consultation with the Chief Secretary of Daman and Diu and the Collector of Dadra [English] and Nagar Haveli on our request. the hen. Home Minister sent a wireless message SHRI KAMAL CHAUDHRY: Sir, you from here, the copy of which was taken from are allowing those members to speak. I the police post by the AIGP to Bombay. The should also be given a chance to speak. I han. Home Minister's wireless message re- They are speaking loud by that is why you lated to the transfer of some low caste people are allowing them to speak. of Daman and Diu. I even made the han. Home Minister telephone the Chief Secre- MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. tary. On 22nd again they refused to follow orders. Today those people have returned ( Interruptions) from Daman and Diu.

.SHRI KAMAL CHAUDHRY: Mr. Evan after receiving a wireless mes- Speaker, Sir. they are speaking very loudly sage from the Ho~e Ministry or a telephone to attract your attention. I can also speak call from the Home Minister they do not louder. But I am following the discipline and follow orders. This is an insult to the Central I do not want to break the rules. Government and the han. Home Minister. This could lead to a situation similar to that in MR. SPEAKER: You are an han. Punjab and Jammu and Kashmir and we Member and you will be given a change to don't want such a thing to happen. I would speak. call this a failure on the part of the Home Minister. We are extremely cocerned about ( Interruptions) this as there has been no bloodshed in that area so far. If our voice is ignored today, this rTrans/ation ] problem could snowball into a crisis in future. Earlier Punjab was a peaceful State but SHRI D.J.TANDEL: Sir, onthe 23rd we today it is in turmoil. Minor incidents can :aised this issue wtth a number of adminis- spark off a major crisis. rators of Dadra and Nagar Haveli, Daman and Diu and placed before them our hard- Our people have been beaten and har- ships. All the hon. Members know of it and assed over there. We have promised them today I shall relate the tacts of the matter. that we shall bring some instructions in regard to their problem. But our voice is not MR. SPEAKER: You have already told being heard here. We are not begging for about that. What more is there to say. anything, we simply want justice. Such officials should be suspended immediately. We SHRI D.J. TANDEL: I met you yester- want that a committee comprising of han. day also and I have apprised the han. Home Members of this House be sent these I Minister of the situation. (Interruptions) request the hon. Home Minister to sack the Chief Secretary. Collector and the I.G.P. SHAI VASANT SATHE: You can tell immediatGly and conduct an inquiry into their the h~n. Home Minister. there is need to tell junctioning. Otherwise the situation will us. (Interruptions) worsen. Why was I angry with my han. 41 Legislative JVAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Council Bill 42 colleagues from the Congress? Those people Chief Secretary and concerned police offi- are doing all this under the protection of the cials were summoned. These officials said Governor Shri Khurshid Alam Khan who is a that three wireless messages were sent from Congressmen (Interruptions) So I had to here that no searches be conducted at the stand against Congress and Janata Dal both houses of these peopte . But the Chief Sec- of them I defeated in my election as an retary said over there that no wireless mes- independent candidate. So this is creating a sage was received. Now the hon. Home problem 'for me. I would ask hon Shr; Mujti Minister says that three wireless measages Mohammad Sayeed to remove these offi- were sent but the local officials say lhat no cials immediately. wireless message was received (Interrup- tions) I have been deceived. SHRI MOHANBHAJ SANJIBHAI DELKAR (Dadra and Nagar Haveli): Mr. MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Speaker Sir ... SHRI MOHANBHAI SANJIBHAt MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. DELKAR: We received, an assurance from Whatever you have given in writing I have the hon. Home Minister. Who would have passed it on to the hon. Home Minister. So been held responsible if my house had been why are you raising this point again? burnt or something had been placed in my house to harass me? The hon. Home Minis- SHRI MOHANBHAI SANJIBHAI ter will have to reply to these questions DELKAR: The hon. Home Minister sent a today. If the State Home Minister can de- wireless messages that the transfer of IC' ceive me by making such misleading state- class paoplefrom Diu and Daman be stopped. ments, he can do so with anybody else also. L.D.Cs and U.D.Cs were transferred from How can the Punjab Problem be solved that there. (Interruptions) They harassed the way. Some day the issue of Dadra and public and we had drawn Government's at- Nagar haveli and Daman will also become tention to it here. That day all hon. Members as grave as is the problem of Kashmir or had supported me and the hon. Home Min- Punjab. These Members, who are standing ister had given an assurance that an inquiry here. had seen my condition and they had would be conducted and the guilty would be visited me at my house also. They had punished. After receiving this assurance I apprised the hon. Home Minister abut the met the hon. Minister in his chamber and condition of Mohanbhai. He is aware of it. but suggested that the concerned officials be even then he says that he does not know suspended first and then an inquiry be insti- about the problem in his constituency. There tuted at the local level. The hon. Home is no one to look into this report. We do not Minister assured us thatthe suggested course have any democratic ways. Enquiry report is of action should be followed. 4-5 days have asked only for those, against whom we raise passed since then but the officials have not voice and file a complaint. We cannot get been removed and the hon. Minister says justice in this way. Through you, I would like that an inquiry is being conducted right now. to submit before the House that firstly. the But those very officials will conduct the in- officer against whom the allegations have quiry and should one expect that those offi- been made should be removed from there cers would write a report unfavourable to and then a Committee, constituted by this them? The official against whom the inquiry House should be sent there and the matter is to be conducted is going to write the report. would be investigated. (Interruptions) Nothing is going to come out of it. Then the han. Minister of State Shri Subodh ji also [English] called me. I told him also that I had raised my voice in favour of the Adivasis. (Interrup- SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE tions) That is why people are being harassed (Bolpur): Sir, these two hen. Members seem there. The State Home Minister said that the to be genuinely aggrieved. They have seri- 43 Legls/atlv8 MAY 29,1990 Council Bill 44

[Sh. Somnath Chatterjee] Minister either to make enquiries or then. it is up to you to see whether an inquiry from the ouscharges as to how the things are running House is necessary and that can be made, if there an~ thay are making specific com- necsssary. plaints. I request the han. Home Minister to take this very seriously. Let the two inde- SHRI LOKANATH CHOUDHURY pendent Members of this House do not have (Jagatsinghpur): The harassment meted out a feeling that their complaints are not being to two Members of the House was previously looked into and proper steps are not taken. reported here. Then, the Home Minister Therefore, I request the Home Minister to assured that within two days, he would settle take immediate action in the matter. it. It seems either the Home Ministers is not working or the Home Minister himself is not [ Translation] serious. So, it is distressing. If the privileges of those members have been affected, a SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it privilege motion should be brought against was on two occasions itself i.e. In the last the Home Minister hera. The administration week, these two independent Members, who should be warned that they should protect have been elected from scheduled caste the privileges of the Members. constituencies, had made specific complaints against some officials there. They alleged So, the Home Minister must take imme- that these offiCials were preventing them diate steps to recall the officers or to transfer from discharging their duties as a Member. the officers immediately and thereafter the Even though, this Issue has not been raised matter could be inquired into. This is my here as the breach of privilege, I think that it submission. It IS not giving some explanation is a very serious matter and the han. Home here one after another. I want to warn this Minister should take immediate action for Government that this way of administering the redressal of their grievances. (Interrup- the State will take this country to disaster. tions) ( Interruptions)

(English] [ Translation]

SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU MR. SPEAKER: I have called the hon. (Balasore): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the difficulty of Home Minister. He IS going to make his the two hon. Members is a genuine one. statement. Please listen to him first. Please They are telling the names of the officers take your seat. (Interruptions) also Whatever statement the Home Minister wants to make, let him make. (Interruptions) SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SA YEED: after you hear the Home Minister's state- Mr. Speaker, Sir, two hon. Members have ment, I would like you to order, on your own, alleged that the Collector and the Additional two Members of the House to go there to Inspector General of Police of Dadra and study the situation and submit a report be- Nagar Haveli and Deman and Diu have fore you. (Interruptions) harrased them and their relatives. In my opinion, we should first enquire into the SHRI DINESH SINGH: Mr. Speaker, matter there. (Interruptions) Sir, while specific complaints of this nature are made, it is only appropriate that they MR. SPEAKER: Please listen to what should be properly looked into. It is not a the hon. Minister is saying. Hon. Member, Party matter. When a Member complains please take your seat. that he is prevented from discharging his duties and when there is undue harassment, then it is the right of this House to inquire into it. I would, therefore, request the Home SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED: I 45 Legislative JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Council Sill 46

have asked the State Home Minister to look the probable nuclear attack of Pakistan on to it as to what complaints are there against our country and constant threat to the secu- the petty officials who have been transferred rity of this country. a red-alert should be to the remote areas. He will also look in the declared for civil defence and efforts should complaints against the concerned officers. A be made to destroy the hideouts of Punjab Collector has already been transferred. (Inter- and Kashmir terrorists in Pakistan by attack- ruptions) The transfer orders of an Addi- ing them. tional Police Commissioner are being issued. However, if the hon. Member insists [English] that it should be done today itself... SHAI YADVENDRA DATI (Jaunpur):

[English] Sir I I am very thankful to you for giving me the chance and fulfilling your honourable words- It needs a certain procedure. We have late but nevertheless good one. I wish to to follow certain procedures. (Interruptions) draw the attention of this House and of the Home Minister to the danger arising in the 110ld them to speak "to the Home Mints- two frontiers of our country. In the North- ter. He sorted out some matters. Then they East, in the Tripura State, in Agartala. ter- came to me. I told them that generally every rible amount of smuggling of raw material to officer cannot be removed. Then they told build bombs and guns is being me about one or two officers. I told them III done... (Interruptions] am removing 1hem but while removing them, we have to be in search of a substitute who MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude within will be equally competent." I have them in-. a minute. structions. (Interruptions) SHRI YADVENDRA DATI: Give me at So, I took the complaint of the h~n. least some time. Members very seriously. I spoke to Gover- nor of Goa, Shri Kurshid Alam Khan that MR. SPEAKER: You know the con- there are complaints and I gave orders to straint of time. Home Secretary that these two officers should be removed and that we shall have to find a SHRI YADVENDRA DATI: You have suitable substitute. (Interruptions) That I have given my hon. friend twenty minutes. done. [ Translation1 [ Trans/ation] MR. SPEAKER: We have to clear the SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA (Pali): Mr. passage of the Constitution Amendment Bill. Speaker, Sir, I would like to draw your attention towards the statement made by the self- THE MINISTER OF LABOUR AND styled commander of Jammu Kashmir lib- WELFARE (SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN): eration Front, snrj Amanullah Khan in Isla- Let the Parliament work and get the Bilfs mabad that the general public in Jammu and passed before 6 0' clock. Kashmir will be attached. Sir, for the last seven days, th9 Air Force of Pakistan has [English] been sm ugglin9 missiles and nuclear bombs from Islamabad into that part of Indian terri- SHRI YAOVENDRA DATI: The police tory. Recently, the Vice-Chancellor of and the administration know in Tnpura who Jammu-Kashmir University has been mur· are the smugglers who are the makers of dered on their directtOns. In this way, it has arms and ammunition, of bombs and guns. caused a serious threat to the security of our But they are taking no action. Why? Why are country. I would like to request that in view of they not taking any action? Because the 47 Legislative MAY 29,'990 Council Bill 48

[Sh. Yadvendra Datt] said it even earlier that important issues can be raised in the House under half an hour Government there is giving protection to the discussion. But all these discussions have smugglers and makers of arms and ammu- been taking place for the last two hours. I nition. I would like the Home Minister to look don't think that the Members of either side do into it. not want it to continue for an indefinite period. So kindly go in for voting on my two On the other hand, on the Western motions. (Interruptions) frontier, so called satellite pictures have been brought out where about fifty trucks of ten [ Translation] wheelers and sixteen wheelers have moved from Kahuta loaded with missiles and nu- SHRI L.K. ADVANI: There are two clear bombs to the advance airfields, war important Constitution Amendment Bills. The posts of the Indian border. I would like the House should know about the timing of vot- Government to look into that matter also and ing thereon. find out if those stories in the Sunday Times are fraud or are facts. If they are facts. the MR. SPEAKER: Immediately after it. Government should take immediate action for the defence of the civil population from SHRI L.K. ADVANI: You should inform the nuclear weaponry and be prepared with us about its timing so that we may come here a nuclear weaponry clearly saying that if on time. (interruption) Pakistan starts it. sAe will be destroyed ten- fold by the nuclear weaponry. This policy [English1 must be brought out very clearly in this House and the nation must be taken into SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): Sir, confidence. I hope, the Home Minister will this is the fourth time he is speaking. This is respond to the Agartala affair and the De- a discrimination. you are allowing one par- fence Minister will respond to this danger ticular Member always. (Interruptions) threatening our frontier. (interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I am not permitting SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: When you. Mr. Kumaramangalam. What is your will the Constitution Bill be taken up and point. when will that be passed? Already two hours have gone. (Interruptions) ( Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Paswan, what is MR. SPEAKER: I do not know what has your point of order? happened to him. I am not permitting him. Shri Chalers. please take your seat. Don't [ Translation] argue with the Speaker. I order you to take your seat. SHAI AAM VILAS PASWAN: I am on a point of order. Telegrams were sent to the ( Interruptions) Members of all the parties and they were asked to suspend all their engagements and MR. SPEAKER: Why should be threaten to make it a point that they attend the House. the Speaker like this? This is not the way to These are very important issues and we behave. have to get the Constitutional Amendment Bill passed. There are a lot of devices for ( Inteffuptions) initiating a discussion in this House such a calling attention motion and the motions SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Sir, you please under rules 377. 193 and 184, under which allow Shri Charles in place of Shri discussions can be held in the House. 1have Kumaramangalam. (inttlnvptions) 49 Legislative Council Bill JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Leave of Absence 50

SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGALAM: Sir, Thousands of students now take the poe you may please allow Shri Charles. (Inter- examination as private students. if poe is ruptions) stopped what will be the for private students? If this decision to start the Plus II PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Sir, he has with- Course is taken in a hastek, then this wi" drawn in favour of Shri Charles. You please certainly disrupt the entire educational sys- allow Shri Charles. tem of the StatE' The required financial assistance for implementing the UGC scala ( Interruptions) of pay has to be released by the Ministry of Education. Hence, the Education Ministry has a resJ'X)nsibility to see that this scheme SHRI A. CHARLES: Sir, I always re- is implemented as per the guidelines of the spect and obey the Chair. Sir, the Govern- UGC. The onty possibility seems to be that, ment of Kerala has decided to start Plus " you have a separate Board for the poe as Course in 31 selected Government High has been done in some States. Sir, this is a Schools of the State from the academic year. very serious situation and I request the ur- It appears that this decision was taken as gent intervention of the Government of India. part of the implementation of the UGC scale ( Interruptions) of pay to the collega teachers. But this has created serious problems both to the students and the teachers. If this decision is implemented there will be two parallel courses 12.45 hrs. after Std. X. One is the existing Pre-Degree Course and other is the new Plus II. There is LEAVE OF ABSENCE FROM THE no guarantee that the University would ulti- SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE mately permit the Plus" students to joint the graduate and professional course. There w:II also be the problem of assessing the inter 58 lEng/ish] merits of student who come out successfully in the POC and the Plus II Course. The POC MR. SPEAKER: The Committee on will be under the control of the University ad Absence of Members from the Sittings of the the Plus II is underthe Department of Secon- House in their First Report presented to the dary Education. If the ultimate aim is to stop House on 28th May, 1990, have recom- the pdc, then what would be the future of the mended that leave of absence be granted to college teachers now working in the colleges the following Members for the period men· and what is the future of the Plus II students? tioned against each:-

(1 ) Shri Sud am Dattatrya Deshmukh 23.3.90 to 11.5.90

(2) Shri G. Krishr.a 12.3.90 to 23.4.90 and 8.5.90 to 25.5.90

(3) Shri Brahm Dutt 2.5.90 to 17.5.90

(4) Shri Rameshwar Patidar 23.4.90 to 21.5.90

Is it the pleasure of the House that leave MR. SPEAKER: The leave is granted. as recommended by the Committee be The Members will be informed accordingly. granted?

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes. 51 L98v9 of Absence MAY 29,1990 Statt. by Minister 52 Licensing Po/icy on St99/ ( Interruptions) 12.46 112 hrs.

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats. PETITION I know that there are Constitutional Amend- ment Bills. [English]

( Interruptions) Re: Closure of Refractory and ceramic units of Raniganj no. 2 works and Our- [ Translation] gapur Works of Burn Standard Co. Ltd., West Bengal

SHRI DHARM PAL SHARMA (Udham- SHRI HARADHAN ROY (Asansol): I pur): I would like to remind you as well as him beg to present a petition signed by Shri Shib that you are the custodian of the rights of Kinkar Dey, Joint Secretary and Shri Vivek every member. You have yourself said that Hom Choudhary, Assistant Secretary of you would give a chance to everyone who Refractory and Ceramic Workers' Union, would give it to you In writing in your room. I Raniganj, district Burdwan, West Bengal and have also given you written notices about others regarding closure of Refractory and four urgent matters of public Ceramic Units of Raniganj No.2 Works and importance ... (Interruptions) Durgapur Works of Burn Standard Company

Limited, West bengal. I MR. SPEAKER: This is not a point of order. Sharma ji, please Sit down.

SHRI DHARM PAL SHARMA: I would 12.47 hr•. like to say ... (Interruptions) STATEMENT BY MINISTER MR. SPEAKER: Shri Haradhan Roy. Licensing Policy on Steel

12.46 hrs. [English]

[MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in theCh_i~ THE MINISTER OF STEEL AND MINES AND MINISTER OF LAW AND JUSTICE SHRI DHARM PAL SHARMA: I have (SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI): Sir, I find there also given four pOlnts ... (/nterruptlons)* is still scope for further streamling the LI- censing PoliCy governing the secondary MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sharma ji, sector steel industry in our country. This please be seated. sector has played hitherto an important and complimontary role to that of the integrated [English] steel Plants. The secondary steel sector should continue to do so and to expand smoothly filling up gaps in the supply-de· What he says, will not form part of mand pattern for the numerous types of steel rocord. products including special steels. Consider- ing that we have been importing steel worth about Rs. 1200 crores every year over the last many years, the secondary steel sector

• Not recorded. 53 Statt. by Ministsr JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA)Licsnsing Policy on Steel S4 requires to be supported to make a signifi- are currently prevalent in our cant contribution to steel supply in the econ- Licencing Policy in different omy. steel rolled commodities are being removed. (2) The basic principle underlying the streamlining of the Licensing Pol- (d) Units which have set up icy is that the secodary steel sector sponge iron making facilities should be facilitated to integrate will be freely allowed to in- both backwards and forwards to crease their operation to pro- improve the economic viability of duce finished steel. individual units, many of which are too small considering the modern (4) Special provisions would continue technological requirements. Invest- for minimum economic capacity etc. ment decision in the private sector for hilly and backward regions of to produce a particular steel item or the country considering the infras- to locate the project at a particular tructural problems that character- place are basically commercial ise such regions namely in Jammu decisions and the private sector & Kashmir. the north-eastern should be encouraged to take them States, hilly regions of Uttar as such, without creating an obliga- Pradesh. etc. tIon on the part of Government to solve their raw material and mar- (5) Members are aware of the difficult keting problems, as a pre-condi- situation regarding the availability tion. of electric power supply in many States In the country. New electric (3) The new policy would thus provide are furnace units even of the mod- to the following: ern large types which are energy (a) Modernisation of electric arc and electricity efficient and which furnaces would be aHowed are high productive units should, liberally subject to the use of therefore, be allowed with great sponge iron being produced caution. This matter is being sepa- andlor used to reduce the rately considered. burden on foreign exchange required for importing steel (6) I do trust that the secondary steel melting scrap. sector industry in our country will enthusiastically respond to the lib~ (b) Steel-making by the blastfurn- eralisation that is being proposed ance route will also be allowed now. Such response should be to the private sector but sub- characterised by proper project ject to the ceiling capacity limi- preparation and viable investment tation of 250,000 tonnes per without obliging the Government to annum for the present. This is provide raw materials or to safe- essential because, as t said guard the market for individual units. earlier. small blast furnance I hope that the new policy will pro- technology is now available vide a healthy climate for growth in within the country and there IS the iron and steel sector which is no logical reason for shutting bastc to our economy and on which private sector out of thiS route a good deat of our exports depend. for pIg iron/steel making.

-Not recorded. 55 Statt. by Minist9r MAY 29,1990 Licensing Policy on Ste91 56

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Nothing oth- party has not yet spoken on the Constitution erwise speaking will form part of the record. (Amendment) Bill regarding setting up of a Mr. Upendra may speak now. Commission. I want that our party should be allowed to speak. (Interruptions) THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING AND MINISTER SHRt P. UPENDRA: Sir, the voting of FOR PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI the first Bill will be at 2.30 PM and they are P. UPENDRA): Sir, many han. Members requesting that 5.30 PM be the time of the were eager to know the time of voting of the voting forthe second Bill. So, there are three Const"utian (Amendment) Bills. The time hours. There will be enough time of speak. allotted for the Constitution (Scheduled We will take up the other Bill right now, i.e., Castes) Orders (Amendment) Bill was two Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Orders hours and we have already consumed three (Amendment) Bill. hours. So, there is no need for further discus- s;on on this Bill. We can straighaway put the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now the Bill to the vote of the House. And after that, House will take up Matters Under Rule 377. I suggest that the voting of the Constitution Mr. Gopinath Gajapathi. (Sixty-eighth Amendment) Bill be taken at 2.30 PM and the voting of the Bill regarding (Interruptions) land reforms be taken at" 6 PM. After that, we can take up the Discussion under Rule 193 SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU regarding the Kashmir issue. This is only the (Balasore): Sir, I am on a point of order. tentative programme. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: When there ( Interruptions) is no business in the House, there is no point of order. There will be no point of order in the SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE inter-session. (Panskura): Sir, I want to seek a clarification. The Constitution (Amendment) Bill regard- SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: You are ing setting up of a Commission for Sched- an experienced Speaker. You know that at uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes is a very every moment, there is a business before important Bill. The major parties who have the House. The House always has a busi- not spoken yet should tlave a chance to gIve ness before It. Now, I am talking to you. In their impression and ideas on it. fact, this is also abusinessofthe House. I am appealing to you Sir, to kindly allow me to MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is OK. Mr. raise my point of order. K.S. Rao. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your SHRI K.S. RAO: Sir, in regard to the point of order? Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Orders (Amendment) Bill, we have g01 some more SHAI SAMAAENDRA KUNDU: I have speakers from our side. We do not want been sitting here for the last two hours rais- , more time to be given. Four M~mbers are left ing my hand. But I was not called upon to hom our side. At least, each Member should speak. We know that you have been a very be given five minutes and that comes to esteemed Speaker of Maharashtra and now twenty minutes. You please allow us to the Deputy Speaker. We are all happy about speak. (Interruptions) the way in which you are conducting the House. I have given a privilege notice and for MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Upen- the last two days I have been raising my dra. do you agree to the suggestions made? hand, but nobody has listened to me. This is one of the most sordid thing that has ever SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE: Our happened. It will rock India when the matter 57 Statt. by Minister JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA)Licensing Policy on Steel 58

is discussed here. It is regarding St. Kitts MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Yes, it is one forgery case. The aft air has been published hour twenty five minutes. in the newspapers and you must have seen how the most heinous conspiracy was hat- SHAI VASANT SATHE: That means it eched in the South Block. Half a dozen will come at about 3.00 p.m. What about people are involved. They have brought lunch? Are we having lunch hour or not? contempt to the Parliament by their conduct outside and inside this House nd the matter MA. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No tunch should be allowed to be discussed. I want to hour. That is already decided. raise this matter in the House, but I am not being given an opportunity to raise it here. SHRI VASANT SATHE: But we have to tell our Members also. MR. DEPUTY -SPEAKER: It is only when you getthe permission from the hon. Speaker SHRI P. UPENDRA: I mentioned before that you can raise it here. You matter proba- they left. bly IS pending with the hon. Speaker. You can meet him in his Chamber also. When the PROF. P. J. KURIEN: I take strong privileges matters are to be raised, you can objection. If lunch hour has to be done away meet the hon. Speaker in his Chamber also. with, it should be proposed here and decided here. That has not been done. This is not the SHRI SAMARENDRA KUNDU: I have way. Do not take up for a ride like this. We already met the Speaker. have for tell our Members also.

MR. DEPUTY -SPEAKER: Please do it SHRI P. UPENDRA: This was decided again. in the Business Advisory Committee and it is there in this Report of the Committee to skip SHRI VASA NT SATHE (Wardha): On a the lunch hour. point of clarification. It was just now said that as far as item ~ ~ IS concerned the voting will PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Your can kindly take up at 2.30 p.m.? Do we understand go through the Report. It says-if necessary. correctly? The House is the final author~y. It is not that we are objecting, but the motion should be SHRI P. UPENDRA: No, it will take moved here and a decision take. place right now immediately after the matters under Rule 377. SHRI P. UPENDRA: All right: I am for- mally proposing now. SHRI VASANT SATHE: Those four people are not being allowed to speak. PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Secondly, yesterday it was announced by the Chair that on SHRI P. UPENDRA: We have already item No. 11, three minutes each would be exceeded the time. allowed to three of our Members. Only one speaker on the constitution (Scheduled SHRI VASANT SATHE: All right. Then Castes) Order Amendment Bill has spoken on item 12, will there be a discussion or not? from our side.

SHRI P. UPENDRA: You have already 13.00 hr•. consumed one and a half hours. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I had indi· SHRI VASANT SATHE: Not on item 12. cated the time.

SHRI P. UPENDRA: You have done PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Time should be that: record is there. extended, that is what t am saying. 59 Matters under MAY 29,1990 RulB377 60

SHRI VASANT SATHE: Sir, we have emmant of Orissa, the Committee found already told our Members that there would suitable place near Bijipur in Bhapur Block of be lunch hour and they have already gone. Puri district. State Government had also given assurance to the Committee for supply MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, we are of water, land, power for construction and skipping the Lunch Hour. development of suitable infrastructure. The Committee has aJready submitted its report SHRt HARISH RAWAT (Almora): Sir, to the Nuclear Power Board. However. it is problem is that we have already informed the regrettable that the Government of India Members and they have gone. It is an impor- have not given due consideration to this tant Constitutional Amendment Bill. proposal of vital importance for the country's economy. SHAI P. UPENDRA: The first bill requires only simply majorrty. And it is the second Bill which requires a large majority. I, therefore, urge the Government to take the decision in the matter forthwith, to PROF. P.J. KURtEN: Sir, we have not enable setting up of the Atomic Power Plant been informed about the skipping of the in Orissa during the current financial year. Lunch Hour. [ Translation) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: AU right, now let us start with 377. (II) Need to Include Gaund, ManJhl, Panika, tribes of Uttar Pradesh In the list of Scheduled Tribes

13.01 hrs. SHRI MOHANLALJHIKRAM( Mandla): People of the ancient trinbe of Gaund, who [English] are residing in almost all the states, have been included into the list of Schedu~ed MAnERS UNDER RULE 377 Tribes in the Constitution. But It is a lamen- table fact that they have not been included in the Scheduled Tribes List of U.P. Govern- (I) Need to set up an atomic Power ment. Hence, it has violated theirfundamen- Plant In District Purl, Orissa at tal right. Not only this, by doing so they have the place proposed by site 8e- neglected even this list given in the Indian lectlon commlttte. for Eastern Constit ution. Region I would like to request the Indian Gov- SHRI GOPI NATH GAJAPATHI (Ber- ernmentto look into this matter seriously and hampur): Government of India have consti- direct the Government of Uttar Pradesh to tuted a Site Selection Committtee during the include Gaund tribes in its list of Scheduled 7th Plan for selection of sites to set up Atomic Tribes. Power Projects 4n different regions of the country. The Site SelectIOn Committee for the Eastern Region has visited Orissa on Similarly, Manjhi and Panika communi- different occasions and conducted prelimi- ties should also be included in the list of nary il"'ves~gation on different places in Scheduled Tribes throughout the country Orissa. because these have not been included in the list of Scheduled Tribes in certain states. After thorough investigation and dis- Therefore, immediate steps should be taken cussions with high-level officials of the gov- to rectify the situation. 61 Matters under JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Rule 377 62

[English] [ Translation]

(III) Need to Include the project of (Iv) Need to Install high power T.V. extension of metre gauge line Transmitter at Doordarshan upto Agartala, Trlpuraln 8th Plan Centre Sahara. In Bihar

SHRt SONTOSH MOHAN oev: SHRt SURVA NARAYAN YAOAV (Tripura West): Consequent upon the parti- , (Saharsa): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the tion of the country I Tripura was completely transmission capability of Doordarshan cU1 off from the rest of India being sur- Centre, Saharsa is so low that its programmes rounded on three sides by East Pakistan cannot be seen within the entire area of new Bangladesh with geographical continu- Saharsa Municipal Corporation. As a result ~y, only to northern and with the Cachar the people of Koshi and other tehsils of district of Assam. Saharsa district which are located at a dis- tance of 100 KMS or more from Saharsa Originally, the railway stations in the Devision fail to view its programmes. As a surrounding district of Bangladesh were result there is a great resentment among the within stone's throw from some of the sub- local people. In Saharsa area the Door- di~isional towns in Tripura and those were darshan facility is poor even now while 800/0 the main transport facility. As a result of area of the country enjoy it. Therefore, a partition these railway stations fell in Bangla- powerful transmitter should be installed in desh and thereby disrupting communication place of the existing one of low-capacity. system of Tripura with the rest of India. Therefore, I would like to request that The land locked Tripura, i~ presently the Government should take immediate steps served by a stretch of 45.5 Km of Metre to facilitate installation of a high power gauge railway line under NF Railway extend transmitter a~.Saharsa Doordarshan Centre upto Kumarghat in the North District of the so that the people there are not deprived of State. entertainment and are able to view the programmes of Doordarsha;. and get benefit The economic development of the State therefrom. has seriously suffered due to the absence of infrastructure. (v) Need to open a Central Research University In Uttarakhand In Ut- For development of industrial sector, tar Pradesh the extension of railway line in Tripura is essential. SHRt M.S. PAL (Nainital): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, Uttarakhand region of Uttar According to the Traffic-cum-Engineer- Pradesh has unlim~ed natural resources jng survey the construction cost of 120 Km and its climate ;s akin to that of Switzerland line will be Rs. 153.0 crores with a financial and Japan. Therefore the Central Govern- return ranging from 0.82% to 1.27% only. In ment should explore the possibility of setting the meeting of Working Group held at Mali- up a Central Research Centre in this region gaon on 4.10.89 the extension of MG line for the exploration of mineral wealth, to upto Agartala was agreed. It was recom- conduct research on the various species of mended by the Working Group that after plants available in forests, to put 4t to daily examining the Bimodal study report of RITES, use as a source of alternative energy, to set the Planning Commission would take up the up tourism industry and to set up industries extension of the Railway network from based on Management of fruits and vege- Kumarghat to Agartala (MG line) in the 8th tables. Considering this situation a Central Plan. I request the Government to include Research University should immediately be the above project in Eighth Plan. opened there. ' 63 Matters under MAY 29,1990 Ru/s377 64

(vi) Need for effective step. to check possible uptill now. pollution of water by effluents from various chemical and phar· The rainy season is about to start. The maceutlcallndustrl•• ln Madhya land between river and beridge be is a low Pradesh, particularly In Ratl8m lying area which always remain submerged. This area lies in my Parliamentary Constitu- DR. LAXMINARAYAN PANDEYA ency, Ajmagarh. (Mandsaur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in violation of Central Laws regarding pollution Therefore, I would like to request the and environment many chemical and phar- Government to evolve a permanent solution maceutical industries located in Madhya to rescue that region from the meance of Pradesh have not set up proper polluted erosion and flood. water treatment plants as a result of which the life of people living around those indus- [English] tries has been endangered and it has caused adverse affect on their health. (viii) Need to withdraw cases of Vic- tlmlsation against Railway em- In some areas located within a radius of ployees and to remove Rule 14 15-20 KMS the water has been polluted upto (II) of the Railway servants (Dis- the depth of 200-300 fts. As a result there is cipline and Appeal) Rul •• 1968 an acute crisis of drinking water and birds and animals a~e dying. Particularly, the in- SHRI A.K. ROY (Dhanbad): While re- dustries like Alcohol plant, Sajjan Chemi- plying to the debate on the Railway Budget cals, Jayna Vitamins and IFFCO Laborato- 1990-91 in Lok Sabha, the Minister of Rail- ries in Ratlam need special mention in this ways assured the House that all cases of regard. Therefore, the Government should victimisation of Railway workers would be take immediate legal actions in this regard. reviewed, and justice would be done. But till this date, nothing has has done except an (vii) Need to take steps to check 5011 assurance that the 'review of cases under erosion caused by Ghaghra river Rule 14(ii) of Railway Servants (Discipline In Azamgarh district In Uttar and Appeal) Rules 1968 is an involved proc- Pradesh ess'.

SHRI RAM KRISHNA YADAV However, there are two categories of (Azamgarh): Mr. Deputy Speaker. every year victimisation cases. One under Rules 14 (ji) lakhs 01 people are rendered homeless due as mentioned above, which should be sum- to floods in Ghaghra river and erosion caused marily as withdrawn, Rule 14 (ii) itself is thereby. It destroys the crops and other vind ictive. Secondly, there was victi misation property worth crams of rupees and causes under the facade of normal disciplinary havoc. It creates a great problem of provid- measures, causing demotion, trans1er and ing food and accommodation to people and even removal-but for trade union activities. fodder for animals. The entire area is sub- The Ministry must form a Parliamentary merged for a period of 3-4 months. Means of Committee to screen that, or refer the matter transport and communication are also thrown to some Supreme Court Judge to screen out of gear. such cases and give justice to them also.

Every .year hundreds of villages are Lastly, the Government should remove washed away by flood and are swallowed Rule 14 (ii) of the Railway Servants (Disci- due to the cyclonic erosion caused by that pline and Appeal) Rules, 1968. An announce- river. In this way this river causes great ment to this effect may be made before the havoc. Every year crores at rupees are spent end of the present Session itself. by Government to check the flood and soil erosion, but no permanent solution has been 65 Const. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) As passed 66 (Amend.) Bi/I by Rajya Sabha

13.13 hr•. That is why they demanded that they be included in the lists of Scheduled Castes. CONSTITUTION (SCHEDULED CASTES) Now that it has been accepted, I welcome ORDERS (AMENDMENT) BILL and support it.

A. Passed by RaJya Sabh_Contd. While expressing my support to this legislative measure, I must make it clear that [English] by mere inclusion in the is list, their socio- economic condition is not going to improve. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House What is the condition of the Scheduled Castes will now take up further consideration of the and Tribes today? In spite of the sincere following motion moved by Shri Ram Vilas efforts by the Government which remained Paswan, on the 24th May, 1990, viz.: in office during the past 40 years, the representation f SCs and STs in Class I and Class "That the Bill further to amend the II Services is very negligible. Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Or- der. 1950 and the Constitution (Sched- Our late Prime Minister, Smt. Indira uled Castes) (Union Territories) Or- Gandhi made all-out efforts to improve the der. 1951 and to amend the Constitu- lot of the 5Cs and STs. Similarly, the previ- tion (Jammu and Kashmir) Scheduled ous Government had in fact offered that the Castes Order, 1956. the Constitution entire backlog be cleared within stipulated (Dadra and Nagar Haveli) Scheduled period. Massive recruitment was done last Castes Order, 1962, the Constitution year. I don't know whether this Government (Pondicherry) Scheduled Castes Or- will continue with the recruitment drive with der. 1964 and the Constitution (Sikkim) the same sincerity as was done by the Scheduled Castes Order, 1978. as Congress Government. passed by Rajya Sabha. be, taken into consideration, ., Another important point I want to bring to the attention of the Government is about Now Shri Suresh Kodikkunnil. the demand of the Christian community to be treated as Scheduled Castes. This demand SHRI SURESH KODIKKUNNIL (Adoor): is perfectly legitimate. Who are these con- Sir. I welcome this Bill. Through this Bill, a vertees? They are the same Harijans with long-pending demand of the neo-Buddhists the same social and economic disabilities. is being fulfilled. Non-inclusion of this sec- Because of inhuman treatment from the upper tion in the list of Scheduled Castes was castes in the Hindu society, these people perhaps an unfortunate omission, which is walked into Christianity the same way as Dr. being corrected now. The circumstances Ambedkar, along with his followers walked which compelled the late Dr. Ambedkar and into Buddhism. But embracing another relig- his followers to embrace Buddhism are known ion has not changed either their social status to everyone here. The Hindu society has or economic condition. Rather, in the ab- never allowed the untouchables to live in sence of any special dispensation from the honour. Disgusted with this state of affairs. Government, these people have remained Dr, Ambedkar adopted the more humane more backward than their Hindu counter- and just Buddism. However, the attitude of parts. Anyway, now that the Government the society does not change, nor does the has decided to confer the status of Sched- socio-econom ic attitude of the society uled Castes on Neo-Buddhists the demand change, nor does the socio-economiccondi~ from the Harijan Christian converte9s to tion change by a mere change of religion. should be favourably considered. From Thus. the neo-Buddists continued to suffer another angle too, this demand is quite legiti- from the same social disabilities as their mate. The Indian Constitution provides relig- brothers and sisters in the Hindu society. ious freedom to all citizens. It also proclaims 67 Const. (5. C.) orders MAY 29,1990 I' As passsd 68 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

[Sh. Suresh Kodikkunnil1 such facilities and concessions are extended are really availing themselves of there. that no citizen shall, be discrim inated against if they had been benefitted by these facilities on the ground of religion. If the State dis- then that would not have been this internal criminates against a citizen merely on the civtl strife that has engulfed the whole of our ground of religion, the right to freely profess country? The facilities ~nd concessions and practice any religion becomes meaning- provided in the name of the scheduled castes less. The Scheduled Castes Order of 1950 in are being enjoyed and availed of by those effect does precisely that by conferring the who have already been uplifted and up- special benefits only on Scheduled Castes graded. All the facilities get concentrated in among the Hindus and Sikhs. Here, religion the hands of their children. The rest of the lot becomes the sole criterion to decide whose remains untouched. There is a provision to will be eligible for the special favouring. I extend such facilities to the scheduled caste think it is against the spirit of the Constitution. children studying in Primary and High Schools I would, therefore, request the Government of rural areas but these facilities are ex- to take immediate steps to include the Sched- tended to them after the expiry of their aca- uled Castes Christian convertees also in the demic session. They are, therefore, hardly list of Scheduled Castes. With these words, being benefited by these facilities. I mean I conclude. to say that it is only the children of I.P.S. Officers who qualify for I.P.S. and those of MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri P. the Ministers who occupy higher positions in Penchalliah. bureaucratic hierarchy. It should be our endeavour to extend such facilites to those SHRI P. PENCHALLIAH (Nellore): I will who have remained deprived of these till speak in my mothertongue, Telugu. now.

[English1 The second thing I would like to emphasize is that a comprehensive survey should MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Did you in- be conducted to this effect. From the survey, form the House that you are going to speak it should befound out as to how many people in Telugu? have been uplifted through these facilities and brought at part with the rest of the [ Trans/ation] society from social, educational and economic points of view. Such upgraded people You do one thing; you please speak should not be allowed these facilities which later after an arrangement for translation is should instead be channelised towards these made. who have remained deprived of these till now. The children of such those families who SHAI RAMASHRAY PRASAD SINGH have been denied these benefits are talking (Jahanabad): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I up arms in collusion with the terrorist ele- thank you for giving me an opportunity to ments and are drifting away from our na- speak. tional mainstream. The educated youth of Jehanabad are forced todo such menial jobs

Sir I W8 have been debating this Bill today as chopping of grass, digging the since yesterday. The hon. Minister stated canal and taking the cattle for grazing. I have that this was the demand made by the neo- repeatedly been saying that they should be Buddhists and we are going to give upon given the right type of employment. This is them the concessions. His statement that the question of this bread and butter. I am not this is being done after so many. years opposed to the provision of such facilities but smacks of something like a radical change we will have to go beyond this. We should that h. is going to bring about. The first make arrangements tor providing the means question is whether the beneficiaries to whom of earning bread and butter to the poor. If.. , 69 Const. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) AspasNd 70 (Amend.) Bill by Rajys Sabha

that by doing this, we will be able, to a great moving this Bill to extend the reservation extent, to bring down the rising militancy in facilities which are now available only to our youth. I would like to recite a poem during Scheduled Castes to neu-Buddhists. The the time you have granted me. Kindly extent demand to include Neo Buddhists in the to it:- Scheduled Castes and thus extending of all the benefits provided in the Constitution to 'CKursi teri mahima ko, gata sab sansar them is not new. It is a long standing de- Tujh par bathe ek bar jo, uska beda mand. But unfortunately this genuine de- paar mand was put into cold storage for all these Kamdhenu ban jati usko, manvanchhit years. Sir, Nee Buddhists are cent per cent fal deti hai! Scheduled Castes. Dr. Baba Saheb Am- Saat pusht ke daridra ko too, turant hi bedker embraced Buddhism in 1956 at dho deti hail Deekshabumi in Nagpur along with his 5 Ganjga Yamuna Saraswati too, vair lakh Scheduled Caste followers. Dr. Am- tarn; kaliyug ki hai bedkar has not taken this step to deprive dukh bhangan jpap harni, too hi khevan- them of their Constitutional rights. Certainly, haar it was not his intention to deprive these Kursi teri mahima jane sab sansar! people of the benefits provided to Scheduled Bade bade yogi aur bhogi, yug yug se Castes under the Constitution. He was very hain tere divane much for the extension of these benefits to Sab ko hi too khel khilave, koi na mane new buddhists. Sir, Buddhism is not alien to haar this land. After all, ours is the land of Buddha. Phaldayini kalyug ki too, tere roop hain In fact it was Dr. Ambedkar's intention to bade nirale revive this religion of the land which just jis par hui meharban too, hote uske disappeared into history. He wanted to build bhag ujale! more Viharas. He even wanted separate Kursi teri mahima jane sab sansar! university for Budhistic studies. Unfortunately Dr. Ambedkar expired on 6th December. This is the main question today. The 1956. With his demise, all his ambitions to House should know this fact that the people revive buddhism in the land of its birth re- who have nothing to eat and no house to live mained unfulfilled. All his followers became in are found in villages. I can say that in view orphans. of the engoing movement is Jehanabad, I have received the nttWS only yesterday that Sir, what are the raasons behind this the militants have razed to the ground the large scale conversions. Dr. Ambedkar or house of Shri Nagina Yadav of village Saho- for that matter entire scheduled castes are vigha of the Ghosi block and dispossessed aboriginals. They are the real sons of soil, him of all his belongings. The militants resort for, they had been here since the time imme- to killi~g people there. Such incidents are a morial. The Aryans, Dravidians and others recurrent phenomenon. I would like to urge who invaded the (X)untry later on, had driven the Government to awaken and do some- these people out to jungles and hills. Later thing for the poor or else it is not going to last on upper castes heaped humiliation after long. humiliation on them. This is the history precisely. When, there were many kingdoms -SHRt P. PENCHALLIAH (Nellore): Mr. ruled by upper caste Hindus, these people Deputy Speaker, Sir, , support whole-heart- were treated with utter contempt. During the edly the Constitution (Scheduled Castes) rule of Mohammadans the situation was no Orders (Amendment) Bill, 1990. better. During the days of Briti3h, thair plight remained the same. The Scheduled Castes Sir, I complement the Hon. Minister for contributed to the freedom movement with

-Translation of the speech originally delivered in Telugu. 71 Const. (5. C.) orders MAY 29.1990 Aspassed 72 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

[She P. PenchalJiah] touchable. Hence a comprehensive amendment Bill should be brought forward to in· the hope that in a free and democratic India, clude them all in the Scheduled Caste list. the situation would be different. In independ· ent India. they thought, they could live with Sir, with the inclusion of neo buddhists dignity and seK respect. They participated in and others the present quota of reservation the freedom movement in lakhs and crores. will not be sufficient enough. Hence I appeal They ware jailed. They were lathi charged. to the Hon. Minister to enhance the the quota They made every sacrifice one could think of reservation from the present fifteen per- of. The moment of independence arrived. cent. Sir, with these words I conclude my Dr. Ambedkar became the Chairman of the speech thanking you for the opportunity you Constitution drafting body. It is because of have given me to speak. him. that this depressed oppressed and ut- terly neglected sections were given certain (Interruptions)*'" benefits inthe Constitution. But, again, though protection was provided to them in the Constitution, they were not implemented in [English] letter and spirit. Governments have come and governments have gone. There was no MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What Mr. change in their status. Dr. Ambedkar earned Panchalliah says will not form part of the on his relentless struggle till the end. But he record. could not succeed much in this upper caste dominated Hindu society. Still the Sched- ( Interruptions) uled Castes are subjected to Inumerable attrocities. Dr. Ambedkar took to Buddhism MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: This is not after coming to the conclusion that survival the way you should speak in the House. of the Scheduled Castes is very difficult In the Hindu society. In India, one can not live SHRI PIYARE LAL HANDOO without religion. Ours is a caste based soci- (Anantnag): Before I make observations ety. Hence there was no other go to Dr. about the merits of the Bill I would like to Ambedkar but to bid good bye to hinduism. make a comment on one patt of the Bill which Hinduism is not for the Scheduled Castes, concerns the State of Jammu & Kashmir he thought. Sir, neo buddhists are none vide this amendment to Jammu & Kashmir other than Scheduled Castes and Sched- Scheduled Castes Order, 1956 also suffers uled Tribes. All of them have one and the an amendment. This problem does not very '5ame blood. much exist in the State. But there are some exclusions which require to be looked into. I (English] would request the han. Minister that he may find some time and to attend to some of the MR. OEPUlY SPEAKER: Mr. Penchal- pressing problems which are pending in his liah you must conclude now. I am going to own Ministry about a category of Scheduled call the other Member now. Castes who have been suffering despite thp Scheduled Castes Order of 1956. In Doda [ Translation] District despite the fact that a caste is schedule, in some revenue papers, for a numberof *SHRI P. PENCHALLlAH: Sir. nowthere people, there IS the sub-caste attached to IS a demand to include converted Christians that Scheduled Caste. As a result of that in the Scheduled Caste liSt. These ChriS- addition of sub-caste with the Scheduled tIans are also sCh&duled Castes. There are Caste, more than 15,000 people of Sched· several other communiHes which are un- uled Castes do not get the benefit of the

-Translation of the ~peech onginally delivered in Telugu. ··Not recorded. 73 Canst. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Aspass9d 74 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha, same caste what otherwise would accrue to been advocated as cause for conversion. them. I would like you to attend to this be- But, if it is not so, then the question of cause the matter has already been brought restricting Scheduled Castes statuts to con- to the notice of the Ministry and those people verts to Buddhism alone is not understand- who in fact are part of Scheduled Castes and able. Then, its refusal to those who are because at point one point of time that have converted to Islam or Chrjstianity would been in the revenue pap~rs shown as a sub- neither be just nor proper. It is true, further, caste of that Scheduled Caste, they are not that mere conversion does not change the given the benefit of that caste. quality of their life. They continue to be backward socially and educationally, and Now I come to the merits of the Bill. I safeguards are due to them. But, this can be would like only to mention that the Minister given under Articles 25 (2), Article 15 and has said that this amendment has become even Article 17, but not as Scheduled Castes. necessary because of a declaration in the And in case it is given to any category of manifesto of his Party prior to the election. converts as Scheduled eastes,.then it can This should have been in fact on the basis of not be refused to others. In that case it a study in respect of all converts from Hindu· should be extended to convert from Hindu- ism to Christianity, to Buddhism or to Islam. ism to any other religion. This is my submis- If you accept the principle that caste travels sion. along with the convert into the religion of his adoption, then you cannot confine it to Bud- [ Translation] dhist alone and refuse it to converts to Chris- tianity or to those who are converts to Islam. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Mem- I would like you in reply to indicate why this bers, you can make very good points in the matter of conversion to Buddhism lone be least possible time. Kindly make proper use regarded as sufficiently compulsive to grant of time. these safeguards which are otherwise ca· pable of being available to Schedule Castes SHAI SATYANARAYAN JATIYA in the Hindu society. There has been a study (Ujjain): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreci- no doubt. There is no doubt that all converts ate your good intention and this Bill has also from Hindu religion Scheduled Castes people been brought here in the same spirit. The do not immediately thereafter change the amendment is not a major one. The neo quality of their life. They continue to remain Buddhists have been included in it alongwith socially and educationally backward and the Sikhs. What was the purpose of including need safeguards. They need safeguards. the neo-Buddhists in it? Things were settled But, before you identify the kind and quality in 1950 and in 1956 conversion of neo- of safeguard~ for the converts, you must buddhists had taken place under the leader- conduct a study and see if caste travels even ship of Dr. Ambedkar. They did not get the after conversion. If you come to the opinion benefits due to them. They might have ac- that caste travels with them then perhaps quired the wisdom of Buddhism in these 25 conversion itself will become less tempting, years but they could not achieve the desired conversion will lose its meaning. With the economic equality. They might have be- literature that became available to us in 1956 come moneyed once butthey did not achieve at the time of conversion to Buddhism led by social dignity and status. We will have to find great Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, we find that con- out the reasons behind this. Before embrac- version was resorted to, to escape the stigma ing Buddhism, this section of our society of the caste which is recognised in Hindu might have perceived that they would get rid society. Associating the concept of Sched- of the dissimilarity and antipathy after con- uled Castes with these converts would be version. But this did not facility. This clearly something foreign to it. If, after conversion, indicates that the social mentally did not they continued to be Scheduled Castes. change at aU. It has been dearly enumerated then the escape of stigma would not have in our constitution that the people of India 75 Const. (S.C.) orders MAY 29,1990 Aspassed 76 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

[Sh. Satyanarayan Jatiya] "Shaiva yamisham shiv ityavochan. yam vaishnava vishnuritj stuvanti, want to consthute India into an integral, Buddastaha vadanti bodh jainah. sat sovereign. socialistic. secular, democratic shree akaleti cha sikh santah," republic. We aspire for a non-sectarian secular state. Then. we have said that there Buddhism is not alien to us and the is the freedom of religion and expression. Bodh brethren are our part and parcel. There Despite all these provisions, we feel con- is a sacrosanct dictum in Islam that says that lt strained to rethink that the peop'e who "Alhamdul lilah-e-rabbil almin , He. the pro- thought, while embracing neo-Buddhism, that tection of the universe does not belong to a their social status will undergo an improve- particular community alone. In this religion ment did not see any radical transformation as also in Christianity, there is no social in it. The obscure social trend of not taking inequality or disparity. Because of the dis- everybody into confidence has been deeply parity prevalent in Hinduism we have again rooted into our society. There can be many included the neo-buddhists in it because the aspects with regard to the religion but the social inequality they have to face. We sup- real religion is that which does not bind its port this Bill. followers. Religion implies duty.

"Dharma yo badhte dharmon, [English] sa dharmah kuwartamatat. avirodhattu yo dharmah, SHRI N, DENNIS (Nagercoil): Sir. the sa dharmah satya vikram," Bill is to include the Neo-Buddhists in the list of Scheduled Castes. Thus, apart from Hin- The true religion is that which is not dus and Sikhs, Nee-Buddhists also would be hostile to other religion. Those who have included in the list of Scheduled Castes and embraced Buddhism are our own people. they would also be getting the benefits and This comes within the purview of Hinduism assistance likethe Scheduled Caste Hindus itself. The politicians have turned Hindus and the Scheduled Caste Sikhs. This should into communal is. In fact. Hindu is not a be a turning point in their socio-economic communal but rather a tolerant and a sub- condition and there is general welcome of missive one. We have had such a great this measure. There would have been greater tradition and we know that: appreciation and better welcome if the Sched- uled Caste persons professing other relig- "Bhulok ka gourav prakriti ka punya ions were also included in the list of Sched- leela sthal khahan! uled Castes. They have also been subjected pheila manohar giri Himalay aur ganga to the same problem. same discrimination jal jahanl! and same socio-economic disabilities. The Sampoorn deshoon se adhik kis desh Christian Scheduled Castes ought to have ka utkarsh hail been proposed for inclusion in the list of Uska hie jo rishi bhoomi hai voh kaun Scheduled Castes, In the Statement of Ob- bhjaratvarsh hai! jects and Reasons, it is stated that change of religion has not altered the socio-economic Haan vrid bharatvarsh hi sansar ka condition of the Nee-Buddhists. The same is sirmour hail the case with Scheduled Caste Christians. aisa puratan desh vishwa ma,n koi our Change of religion to Christianity has not hai? altered the Socio-economic condition of the Bhagwan ki bhavbhootiyoon ka pra- Scheduied Caste Christians, This is the view tham yahi bhandar hail expressed by great leaders like Mahatmaji Vidh! ne kiya nar sriahti ka pahala and Dr. Ambedkar. yahin vistar haillt Another point mentioned in the State- 77 Const. (S. C.) orders JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Aspassed 78 (Amend.) Bill by RajylA Sabha

ment of Objects and Reasons is that the also in this regard by including them in the demand is made by Neo·Buddhists for their List of Scheduled Castes so that they would inclusion in the list of Scheduled Castes. The also get the same benefits and privileges as very same demand is made by Scheduled Scheduled caste Hindus and Sikhs get. Caste Christians through Bishops and also by all Christian leaders, without any denomi- [ Translation] national difference. It is the most important united common issue of all the Christians. SHRIMATI BIMAL KAUR KHALSA when there are atrocities committed on (Ropar): I would like to welcome the Bill Scheduled Castes, they are committed which seeks to include the Neo-Buddhists in against all Scheduled Castes, irrespective of the list of Scheduled castes and Scheduled their religion, with the same force, but the Tribes. In fact, this Bill should have been Untouchability Act and other connected Acts broughtforward much earlier. I am distress8d protect the Scheduled Caste Hindus and not to say that the Scheduled Castes who Scheduled Caste Christians. So, even ~ a adopted Sikhism were called Majhabi Sikhs grave offence is committed against a Sched- or the Ramdasiye Sikhs. They are still being uled Caste Christain law does not protect treated as aliens among the other castes. Scheduled Caste Christians as if the law The Ramdasiye Sikhs and the Majahabi protects the Scheduled Caste Hindus. Sikhs belong to the Scheduled Castes. In- clusion of Neo-Buddhists in the list of Sched- Religious organisations cannot satisfy uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes is also a the demands and needs of the Scheduled discrimination againstthe Buddhists because Caste Christains because their resources it gives a separate identity to the Neo-Bud- are limited. I would like to point out that the dhists from the Buddhists and they will al- financial commitment to the Government on ways be alienated from the Buddhist be- this account will be very small. The total cause of their Scheduled Caste Origin. In number of Scheduled Caste Christains is connection with the present amendment I estimated to be 8 million out of the total would like to say that there should be no number of 16 million Christians. The esti- mention of the were INeo'. It should be mated total number of Christains in the entire mentioned as Buddhists only so that both the country works out to only 2.40/0. The number groups could live in peace and amity. The of Scheduled Castes is estimated at 105 Mohamammdan Scheduled Castes and the millions. So, compared to this figure, the Christian Scheduled Castes should also be number of Scheduled Caste Christains is included in the list of Scheduled Castes. I limited. I would like to point out that the would like to add that the percentage of secularism is practised in our country. As per reservation was fixed with proportion to the Article 15 of the Constitution. There should size of the population. As per the statement not be any discrimination on grounds of of the Central Government, percentage of religion. Article 25 of the Constitution guar- reservation for _the Scheduled Castes is 22 antees Right to freedom of religion. So, whereas theIr numerical strength is 33 per discrimination on grounds of religion is viola- cent. I would like to make an appeal that the tion of secularism as enshrined in Article 25 percentage of reservation should be in- of the Constitution and also Article 18 of the creased from 22 112 per cent to 30 percent. Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Secondly, I would like to submit that the In this connection, I would like to state Mohammedans, Christians and the neo- that the demand of Sikhs have been con- Buddhists should be extended the facilities ceded and the demands of the Nee-Bud- of reservation and the percentage of reser- dhists have also been conceded and so, the vation should be increased by m aning Government be pleased to concede the amendments in articl. 340 of the Constitu- demand of the Scheduled Caste Christians tion. 79 Const. (5. C.) orders MAY 29,1990 Aspass9d 80 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

[English] this reason only. Scheduled Castes also convert themselves to Christianity. I, there .. SHRI B. RAJARAVI VARMA (Pollachi): fore, strongly urge upon the Minister to in- Sir, I thank you very much for providing me clude converted Christians also in the Sched .. an opportunity to speak on the Constitution uled Caste list. (Scheduled Castes) Orders (Amendment) Bill, 1990. If this is clear that Scheduled Castes convert themselves to some other religion to While I would like to call this historic escape social taboos, then the conversion measure, I would also like to day that this is protects them socially. But what about their an incomplete measure. After a very long economic condition? The Government should time, that means, after around 33 years step forward and protect them economically. since the first wave of conversions of Sched .. I, therefore, request the hon. Minister to uled Castes under the leadership of Dr. include a general provision in the Bill for Babasaheb Ambedkar, the demand of the providing Scheduled Caste status to all those neo-Buddhists are being met today. I do not belonging to the community and converted like to go into whether this Bill is being to some other religion. brought forward for political reasons or not. But I would definitely say that like demands Sir r in certain States Scheduled Tribes from many oppressed sects of society are are included as most backward community. not being met. For example, Namikuravas. Vettaikaran. Malaikuravan, Kurumans, Kattunayakkan, In Tamil Nadu there is a community Gariyan, Irular. Vedan, Chittanar and Kura- called Kurumas. These Kurumas are in- van-all these communities are included as cluded as backward castes. But their social most backward communities in Tamil Nadu. and economic conditions are poorer than In this respect, the above said communities Scheduled Castes. Their number is also have formed an association as Tamil Nadu sizeable and I would request the hon. Minis .. Tribal Federation and are fighting for their ter to undertake a survey on the number, demands to be fulfilled. But the Tamil Nadu social and economic condition of Kurumas Government pays no attention to their ap- and include them in the Scheduled Castes peal and welfare so far. The Government of list. If their lot is to be improved, this has to be India must order a general survey to find out done imperatively. the Scheduled Tribes w~o are being treated as most backward in some States and bring Barbers and Dhobies are presently them in the Scheduled Tribes list. included in the backward classes list. These two communities are still being socially I take this opportunity to draw the atten- secluded. We have passed many laws tion of the hon. Minister to the fact that against oppression of lower communities, vacancies reserved for SCs and STs are not but in effect, the social taboos attached to being filled in the Government Departments them are continuing. In fact, liberation of the promptly. The Minister must ensure that oppressed and sllppressed communities is vacancies are advertised, re-advertised and possible only If they are assisted to improve requirements relaxed in certain cases, so their economic condition. I, therefore, re- that the oppressed and suppressed are in- quest the han. Minister to Include barbers spired to join Government establishments in and dhobles In the Scheduled Caste list. more numbers. Similar reservation facilites must be mandatorily provided in every pri- Sir, the main motive behind conversion vate organisation which runs on Govern- of Scheduled Castes to some other religion ment and public financial assistance. This IS to escape SOCial oppression, seclusion should be considered by the Minister. and contempt. The year 1956 sent a wave of conversions of SCs to Buddhism because of With these words, I conclude. 81 Const. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) AspasSBd 82 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

13.54 hr•• head injuries having been hurt by a stick, I had put on the cap. During those days no- PROF. K. V. THOMAS (Ernakulam): body was allowed to wear a cap. In spite of Sir, at the outset, I would like to point out that all these, at the age of 35 Baba Saheb this Constitution Amendment is a dilution of addressed his followers in a village in Yehula the secular nature of our country. Sir, in a Tehsil. He vowed that though he was born as secular State all the citizens have the right to a Hindu, it was not necessary that he should follow the religion of their choice. So, har- die as a Hindu. He told the people that he had ijans should not be deprived of this right. So, come here to fulfil that vow. He called upon irrespective of the religion the hariJans be- the people to follow him it they so wish. He long to, they should get all the rights and will welcome them. He totally ruled one forc- provileges that have been given to them. In ible conversion. J can say that a religious Kerala, about 151akhs of 'Kudumbi' commu- personality like Dr. Ambedkar has neither so nity people are there. 1 request the han. far born in the country nor such a person Minister to include them in the Scheduled would take birth in future. As such conver- Casts and Scheduled Trib~s. Then the fish- sion cannot be made by the force of the ermen community as a whole, whether they sword. It is an open temple. Anybody who go to the sea for fishing or they go for inland has such a wish can come into its ''fold. waterfishing, should be considered as Tribe. This request has come from different parts of I have highest regards for Shri Banat- the country and from different organisations. wala. In 19771 was with him in Huguni. I was So, my request to the hon. Minister is that a one of his fellow members in the commit- comprehensive amendment-to include all tees. I always exchanged views with him. I the harijans in the SC/ST list irrespective of am of the view that he is an elderly person the religion they prefer as well as to accept and a very good man. In connection with the the requests from different States to include point he raised yesterday I would like to say certains castes as harijans-should be con- that there is a difference between the police sidered by the Government, if the Govern- coming nearer to him and to me. While their ment is very serious In helping the harijans coming closer to him will mean that they are so that their genuine problems are settled. comingtowelcome him, Their coming nearer to me will mean that they are coming to arrest [ Translation] me. Nowthis Bill will give protection to us and after the posing of the Bill even if the police SHRI HARIBHAU SHANKAR MAHALE cometowards us, they will not corneto put us (Malegaon): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would behind the bars. So far conversion of people like to express my thanks to you for proceed- into Islam and Christianity, is concerned, the ing me an opportunity to speak on this Bill. At situations vary from person to person under the same time 1would like to thank the hon. which they got themselves converted to other Minister also for bringing forward this Bill, religions. because the introduction of the Bill concid- ars with Budha Purnima, Baba Saheb People who were considered as un- Ambedkar's birth Centenery and Mahatma touchables from the very beginning were Jyotirao Phule's memorable death centen- converted into Islam. Some of these un- ary. This Bill comes up at the confluence of touchables accepted Christianity. Circum- there three sacred occasions. As such this stances differ from person to person which Government deserves our congratulations. compelled them to change their religion to Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, fortunately you are Islam or Christianity. I would lite to like an in the chair at the moment. At the time Baba example in this connection. There were some Saheb Ambedkar was initiated into Bud- illiterate persons in the country who changed dhism, I was a boy of 16 years and was their religion and there were other such present on the occasIon. At that time also I untouchables who accepted Islam. If I am had acapon my head. Though I had suffered allowed to make the point inore clear I would 83 Const. (5. C.) orders MAY 29,1990 Aspassed 84 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabhs

[Sh. Haribhau Shankar Mahala] [English] give an example here. Suppose three persons belonging to three different religions SHRI PETER G. MARBANIANG ( ShU- 81 e asked to go and defecate people who long); Sir, I have moved an amendment to accepted Ismam will take clean water to the this Bill which has been printed separately. Catrine and maintain cleanliness after In that management, I have specifically put that the Scheu led Castes converted to Chris- 14.00 hr•. tianity should also be extended the reservation facilities, for which the benevolent Gov- defecation. The Christians will also maintain ernment has brought forward this Bill. cleanliness. But the illiterate people will use stones after defecation. This is the differ- Let me tell the House that the leaders of ence. In my constituency, initially, there were the Churches in India have met the Govern- untouchables. They work with others in the ment and the hon. Minister has given an society. The muslims also link with the soci- assurance that he would consider the mat- ety. Butthe people who accepted Buddhism ter. I do not know why the same facilities are still being treated as untuochables. As have not been extended to the Scheduled such the socialistic view has not reached the Castes converted into Christianity. There- minds of the people. It is therefore necessary fore, I would request the hon. Minister who is to extende the facilities to them. What does here to consider the Scheduled Castes a mother do? The mother showers much converted into Christianity should also be affection on her youngest child and thinks given the same facilities. about the elder a bIt later. These are the reasons that the Government brought for- I want that the Minister should give a ward this Bill so as to extend the reservation definite assurance on that point. facility to neo-Buddhlsts who have not so far got these facIlities. This IS a very Important [ Translation] Bill and it has been brought forward after careful consideration. I support this Bill. Mr. SHRI VAMANRAO MAHADIK (Bom- Deputy Speaker, SIr, I would like to thank bay South Central): Mr. Deputy Speaker, you for providIng me an opportunity to speak. Sir, this Bill seeks to provide various facilities which are admissible to Scheduled Castes MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mahale ji, to those people who got themselves con- whenever you speak. the Hindi language verted as neo Buddhists from Hinduism at becomes richer. the instance of Baba Saheb Ambedkar. But the word Buddhist has been spelt wrongly of (Interruptions) course, there is no such mistake in the "objects and reasons" part of the Bill. But MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take writing 'Budha' in the body of the Bill is not your seat. It would not do. I have already proper. It is because when Baba Saheb called the hon. Members from your party Ambedkar separated 10 crores untouch- whose names had been sponsored by you. abies from Hinduism hewentto SantGadget If new faces will come atter everyone hour, MaharaJ and Sought. his guidance as to how to manage the work. Hon. members. what religion he should accept. whose list you had given first, have slOce spoken. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please speak ( Interruptions) on the Bill and not against hiS speech.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: It IS all nght. SHRI VAMANRAO MAHAOIK: When I will give you a chance to speak on are there is a mention like thiS. what can I do. t condition. You will have to make new po,nts am speaking in Hindi only. tn spite of that and would not speak on old points. mInor mIstakes wilt be there Gadgeo Ma- 85 Const. (5. C.) olders JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) A.pas.1Id 86 (Amend.) Bill by Rajy. Sabha haraj advised him to accept a religion which MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: A discussion ensures to country's integration and advised is taking place on this sUbject. him not to accept any other religion. There- fore he accepted Buddhism. Mr. Deputy ·SHRI PALAS BARMAN (Blilurghat): Speaker, Sir. have are proposals to extend Sir, 1 rise to support this Bill which has been the facilities of reservation to people who brought~forth by Hon. Shri Paswan Ji 11'1 the were Hindu Scheduled Castes and who have centenary year of Dr. Ambedkar. This Bi~iII Converted themselves as Muslims and fulfil the dream and aspirations of Or. Am- Christians. But it is wrong. The reason be- hedkar by including the weak and backward hind hating the people who were converted neo-Buddhists inthe list of Scheduled Castel into neo-Buddhism is that they adopted Scheduled Tribe and thus providing them coersive tactics against people by the force special safeguards and protection. While of sword and other bethal weapons to change supporting this Bill. I will like to say a few their religion. things before this august House. I will like to say that we should also think about thosE. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please leave economically, socially and educationally these things. Speak on the Bill and not on backward brothers and sisters who on ac- conversion. count of the orthodoxy of the Hindu religion got themselves converted to Christianity or SHAI VAMANRAO MAHADIK: There Islam and till this day have not been included have been three types of conversion. In in the list of SC/ST. Their case should also be connection birth the new proposal inane in considered by Govt. for providing safeguards their regard, I would like to suggest tnat a to them too. new class called the economically backward class should be constituted and the poor Our country consists of the collection of people should be included in this category. I all these people. This great person (Dr. support the view that people who were con- Ambedkar) who was educated in the west- verted as neo-Buddhists by Boba Saheb ern system of education, got converted to should be extended the reservation facili- Buddhism with sorrow in his heart because ties. Now let me take up the other point. The he could not tolerate the orthodoxy of the neo-Buddhists who were Hindus initially were Hindu society and religion. Sir, this country given the rights first. People who continued of ours is the birth place of many great and to be Hindus and did not convert themselves noble persons like Gautam Buddha, Sir as neo-Buddhists, that numberof such sched- Chaitanya, Vivekananda, Rabindranath, uled Castes should be identified. There Nazrul Islam. Mahatma Gandhi etc. The should be no encroachment on the rights of message of their life was: these people. I would also not like to favour the viewthat. The reservation facilities should 'UdarCharitramanta Vasudhyba Kutum- be extended to these Scheduled Castes bakam." who have become rich, officers, doctors etc. These facilities should be extended to back- Gautam Buddha's violence (ahimsa). ward people among the Scheduled castes. It Sri Chaitanya's love for all living beings, for will be appreciated if such an assurance in Swami Vivekananda all the illiterate poor, given. the untouchable low caste people of that age were like his brothers, Ghandhiji carried on a SHAI MAHADEO SHIWANKAR lifelong war against untouchability. (Chlmur): I am on a point of order. My point is that discussion on the amendment Bill Inspite of so many noble example being should be held later on. I would like to know before us, the extreme orthodoxy and con- whether my name is there is the list or not. servatism of the Hindu religion has not gone

*Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengal. 87 Const. (S.C.) orders MAY 29,1990 As passed 88 (Amend.) Bi/I by Rajya Sabha

[Sh. Palas Barman] included in the SC/ST list for safeguarding their interests. With that Sir, 1 conclude. away Except West Bengal, it is present in all Thank you. other States. SHRI RATllAl KALIDAS VARMA Sir, our country is the great meeting (Dhanduka): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would ground of the Aryans, non Aryans, the Drav- like to congratulate the hon. Minister for idians, the 'Pathans, the Moghuls etc. That is bringing forward this legislation. When atroci- why Ka~iguru Rabindranath Tagore said, ties are being committed on the Scheduled come oh. Brahmins, come with a pure heart castes in Gujarat their brothers Muslims and and hold the hands of all others." He wanted Christians never come forward to their res- to build a strong India. He wanted to worship cue, but when the question of receiving mother India, his motherland with the water benefits comes up t~ communities are purified by the touch of all. But unfortunately trying to pose themselves as Scheduled even today the orthodoxy and conservations castes. They have never been subjected to of the Hindu religion and the distriction be- any atrocity. tween the high and low castes have not gone, they are still continuing in the society. Today the cobbler community in Gujarat This blot in the social, economic and educa- is not considered untouchable and treating tional field shall have to be removed. Control them as Scheduled caste, is resulting in has to be exercised firmly. great injustice to the people as in the services only the cobblers are being recruited. H Education shall have to be made com- other castes are included in the list of Sched- pulsory and universal. Reservation and other uled Castes, it will be great injustice to the safeguards shall have to be implemented Scheduled castes. firmly. land has to be given in the hands of the actual tiller, through land reforms. Agri- THE MINISTER OF LABOUR AND cultural loans, foodgrain and other essential WELFARE (SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN): commodities of daily need should be pro- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to vided at subsidised rates. express my thanks to the hon. Members for their valuable suggestions on the topic. I In the congress regime during the past have got a list of 28 han. Members who 42 years 16,000 crores of rupees have been participated in the debate. Most of the hon. _ 5PE1nt for the SelST people. But no benefit Members made a demand and also gave has reached their thatched huts. You shall their amendments that the benefits of reser- have to see that this situation is not re- vation should be extended not only to the peated. neo-Buddhists but also to people belonging to other religions who converted from Sched- Sir, In my constituency there was a uled castes and Scheduled Tribes. I had said community called 'Kolkamar'. Their name in the Rajya Sabha yesterday also that the has been changed to 'Vishwa Karmakar' Government does not have any negative and thereby they have been deprived to the attitude in the matter. The Government is benefits available to SC/ST people. There is sympathetically considering it, but there are another class called 'Oeshia'. Their me style some problems in this regard. Our han. and social customs etc. are identical to that friends from the opposition are sitting here. of the 'Raj-banshi' and 'Polia' communities. They must have hap some problems, other- Rajbanshi and Polia communities' are in- wise, having got 3/4th majority in the House cluded in the Se/ST list in West Bengal they should have brought forward a legisla~ whereas the Deshia community is not so tion to this effect. There are also problems included. They are very backward educa- before us. As long as a general consensus tionally also. I request that these Viswakar- in not achieved in the matter. We do not makar and Deshia communities may also be consider it proper to bring forward such a 89 Const. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) Aspassed 90 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha legislation. Yesterday also I had said that. I said that the Government has no negative have no intention to play politics in such a approach in this regard, but until a general delicate matter, neither our Government has consensus is arrived at in the matter, the any such intention. We are introducing only Government is helpless to do anything. We those points in the Hose in regard to which will convene a meeting of the leaders of all there is general consensus. On the basis of the concerned parties and hold consulta- general consensus only we are taking up tions with them. Several hon. friends have those cases pertaining to weHare of Sched- given divergent views in the matter. uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and the weaker sections of society which may have Mayawati Ji...... unanimous approval of all parties. So far as the case of different religious groups is SHRI KAPIL DEV SHASTRI (Sonepat): concerned, you must have seen in the House Has anything been said to enact a uniform also that there are divergent views in the law for the whole country with regard to matter. In spite of that after the session is privileges being made available to the Sched- over, I shall convene a meeting of all the uled Castes? political parties in this connection and shall see that a general consensus is arrived at SHAI AAM VILAS PASWAN: I shall and they are taken up for final decision. But come to all the points one by one. (Interrup- one thing I would like to say that the Govern- tions) That would not do, please let me ment has no negative approach in the mat- speak. Thereafter, if there is any need for ter. (Interruptions) ... some clarifications on the subject, I shall clarify. Please do one thing. First let me [English] speak and let me touch all the points. Even after that if any point remains untouched, SHRI S. BENJAMIN (Baptala): Sir, you can take up that. Some of our friends there is a consensus so far as the converted have raised an objection to ...... (/nterruptions) christians are concerned. After having heard all these things may I ask ..... (/nt9rruptions) [English] [ Translation] PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Mavelikara): SHRI AAM VILAS PASWAN: I am also Please do not talk like that. To ask questions saying the same thing. I am saying that is the right of the Members. (Interruptions) cases of both the converted Christians and the converted Muslims will be considered. [ Translation] Yesterday, you heard Shri 8anatwala and other han. Members in this connection. MR .. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you doing all this? SHAI AAM DHAN (Lalganj): Has the Government taken any decision? If not, why SHA. RAM VILAS PASWAN: Some of are you saying all these things? our hone Members have expressed the views that mention of the word Ineo' will lower the SHAI RAM VILAS PASWAN: The dignity of the neo-Buddhists. But it is not like Government held consultations with all that you must have gone through the Bill. concerned parties and after taking into ac- There is no mention of neo-Buddhist at any count their unanimous views, it has been place in the Bill, word Buddhist has been decided to extend the benefits of reservation written in the Bill. In the constitution there are to the neo-Buddhists. In our election mani- words Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist. Benefits of festo also we had given an assurance that reservation are being extended to those after coming to power we will do this thing. As people only who have been enlisted in the regards the other suggestions, I definitely category of Scheduled Castes and Sched- 91 Const. (5. C.) orrif:lrs MAY 29,1990 Aspasssd 92 (Amend.) Bill by Rsjya Sabha

[Sh. Ram Vilas Paswan] development must be carried out simultane- ously. Socio-economic programmes should ulad Tribes. The same thing is applicable to be taken up. In this regard I had made an neo-Buddhists. Though benefits of reserva- elaborate statement, yesterday. We are tion will be extended to neo-Buddhists only taking all possible measures 10 ensure so- the word "Buddhist" wilt be written. This is the cial and economic development. Not only we Constitutional amendment. Thereafter our are doing, but also we are bringing forward friends said that ...... (/nterruptions) It would new legislations for this. We are bringing not do. First listen, please. forward a Bill to give statutory status to this commission on Scheduled castes and Sched- SHRI RAM LAL RAHI (Misrikh): Sir, I uled Tribes. There is also a proposal to am on a point of order. include the provisions of land reform in the ninth Schedule of the Constitution. It is defi- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Nothing has nitely a step forward in this direction. At the gone out of order. Why do you raise the point same time we have to ensure that not only of order unnecessarily. Please let him speak. money is sanctioned for the development of Do not do so. Schedule Castes, Scheduled Tribes and the Adivasis but the sanctioned amount is also SHRI RAM LAL RAHI: The hon. Minis- properly utilised. I had said this thing yester- ter said that it will be written as "Buddhist and day also. As a remedial measure we have the benefits wil~ be extended to neo Bud- decided to find out whether the funds given dhists only. How can it be, please clarify. to various institutions under the Ministry of Welfare were being utilised properly or not. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Please We have also decided to provide funds to clarify it later on. (Interruptions) those institutions only which would do some concrete work in this regard. For example, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is not- there are a number of Welfare measures- yielding. viz-education, removal of untouchability etc. Untouchability cannot be removed by dis- SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: There playing posters on the walls. Untouchability were mainly two suggestions. I have dealt cannot be removed by publishing posters. with these two points in my speech. Thereaf- Sometimes a sum of Rs. 2 lakhs is spent on ter, different suggestions came up from this work or arranging lunch etc. In order to various quarters. Some of the hon. friends remove untouchability socio-economic pro- suggested that there should be a separate grammes will have to be accelerated. We . Ministry for the Scheduled Castes. As all of shall bring social, political and cultural aware- you are aware, the entire work with regard to ness in the society and for this education is welfare of Scheduled Castes ar:Jd Scheduled a very important tool. If the people are im- Tribes was being looked after by the Ministry ported education, they become self-reliant of Home Affairs. During those days we used and if they are given maximum employment to sit in the opposition. The Ministry of Home opportunities in Government and non-Gov- Affairs dealt with the work upto 1980. But ernment services they will definitely become after some thought the Government entrusted self-reliant and untouchability will be removed this work to the Ministry of WeHare. I am of totally. It is very essential to have a change the view that allotting this work to any of the in social outlook for this purpose. Ministries does to make any difference, unless there is dedication and willpower with I would like to express my thanks the the Government to do something. The main hon. Members including the hon. Members, thing is to see whether the Government Shrimati Bimal Kaur Khalsa who has pro- wants to do anything concrete in this regard posed to increase the percentage of reser- or not. Secondly, several oftha hon. Friends vation because of the inclusion of neo-Bud· said that it would not serve any purpose and dhists in the list of Scheduled Castes and 93 Const. (S. C.) orders JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) Aspassed 94 (Am.nd.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

Scheduled Tribes. It is definite that the head is abolished but the people who are Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes engaged in this work, are provided some population will become more in 1991 than other good job also, so that they do not come what it was at the time of 1981 census. The back to this work again. When they do not get hon. Members have desired to know as to other work, they come back to do this work. what the Government is going to do in this Several hon'ble members have stated that regard? In this connection I would like to tell only implementing of reservation in Govern- the han. Members that the Constitutional ment services will not serve the purpose. provisions are very clear in this regard. The Rather reservation should be extended to all constitution clear\y states that with the rise in other sectors also. Yesterday, one of our the population of Schedulod castes and colleagues demanded that it should be Scheduled Tribes the percentage of reser- implemented in Rajya Sabha and legisla- vation will also increase. The Government tive Councils also. I had stated yesterday will definitely take steps in this direction. It and I am saying today also that their number will see that percentage of their representa- is adequate in Lok Sabha but not in Rajya tion is also Increased in those Government Sabha. Similarly their number is adequate in and non-Government establishment, when Legislative Assemblies but not in Legislative reservation is provided. One of the hon. Councils. Certainly, there are no two opin- Members has desired to know as to whether ions about it. We can ensure adequate rep- the ongoing special recruitment drive has resentation in other House only if we change been stopped. It th,s connection I would like our political approach. Then some law will to inform him that none of the programmes have to be enacted to ensure adequate Ras been stopped. representation there also. But as f have stated what is needed today is that wrile we Qn the contrary, as I had stated yester- issue in the House in our own day, sp6tcial recruitment drive is still continu- way ...... (lnterruptions) ..... I am replying as 'n9 and t~ Government have been acceler- a Minister of Labour. Qne of our colleagues ating this drive. As I had stated yesterday, it has said that the Government have enhanced will be accele~ted so much that the backlog the amount of Scholarship. Although the is be removed ill all the categories of posts amount of scholarship has been increased within a year, i.e. ~pto 14th April. The Gov- but I think this increase is not commensurate ernment would be raquired to open training with the increase in prices. The Ministry of centres to remove the backlog. There are Welfare has to look to the interest of 75 many technical posts suctt as Pilot. There percent people of our country. But as much are certain other such fields. The Govern- BWdget allocation has not been made for this ment is making efforts to provi~ training MInistry as is required. Consequently, we facilities in such technical Department!KInder are not able to attend to all the aspects, this programme, so that the Scheduled castes whether they pertain to scholarShip, Hostels and Scheduled Tribes who are not consid- art other infrastructural work. ered to be qualified, may not be unfit. When they have been imparted training they will also come in the Merit fist. The Government Many Hon'ble Members have made their will make arrangement to impart them Train- suggestions. Shri K. S. Rao, Shri Chand ing. Ram. Shri Faleiro, Kumari Mayawati, Shri Jag Pal Singh. Shri Hukumdeo Narayan So far as the system of carrying night- Yadav, Shri Kundu and all other hon'ble soil on head is concerned, several hon. Members have given their suggestions. I Members have referred to the problem. As I have listened very carefully the views ex- told you yesterday, a programme has been pressed by these members In the House. All chalked out by the Government and efforts these suggestions are reoorded. I have asked will be made under this programme that not my Ministry to examine all the suggestions only the practice of carrying night-soU on and points made by the Members. 95 Const. (S.C.) orders MAY 29,1990 Aspass9d 96 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

[She Ram Vilas Paswan] like to tell the Minister that the Satna Caste in Bihar (Interruptions) is a Scheduled Caste. Again, I would like to tell you that I am Now it has been included in backward also very much worried and distressed in this classes. The Bihar Government have rec- regard. The Government is also proceeding ommended that the Him caste, which is on these lines. I can say with pride that 90 found in UP and Haryana also should be percent of the commitments, that we made included in the list of Scheduled Castes. to the people, have been fuHilled within the Whether Government propose to include it last six months and the remaining ten per- in the list of Scheduled Castes at the earli- cent will befutfilled during the coming months. est?

Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir I thank all the SHAI AAM VILAS PASWAN: It is a members for participating in the debate and matter about which the President has the urge them to pass this Bill unanimously as power under Article 341 (i) of the Constitu- has been done by Rajya Sabha and with~ tion to include any caste in the list of Sched- draw all the amendments ...... (Interruptions) uled caste and Scheduled Tribes and once a list of the States has been prepared, ap- [English] proval of Parliament is necessary to amend that list in. A list of SC/ST has been prepared MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will allow by the order of the President for all the states. only one or two questions to be asked. Mr. Now if any other caste has to be included in Kurian. the list a Bill would have to be brought in the Parliament in this regard and as I stated PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Mavelikara): The yesterday, complaints from various states hon. Minister Mr. Ram Vilas Paswan was have been coming to the Government about kind enough to say that the Government will it that such and such castes which were left hold a meeting of the leaders of all the parties out should be included in the list of Sched- in order to decide as to whether the Harijans uled castes and Scheduled Tribes. The and some other religions will be included in Government is examining this issue. the Scheduled Castes or not. I welcome this but what is the Govt's view in this regard? Yesterday, I told the hon'ble Members that many members have been writing let- [ Trsnsiation] ters to me in this regard. So you may also write to the Government. But our difficulty is SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: The that it has to be approved by Parliament after Government have endeavoured to achieve due recommendations are received from the unaminity in to the matters brought before concerned State Government and Registrar the House. General. The Government is examining the matter and we will make efforts to bring a SHRI RAM KRISHAN YADAV comprehensive Bill in the coming session or (Azamgarh): When will the Bill to implement any other appropriate time. the report of Mandai Commission be brought before the House? [English]

[English) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The question is: MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: It has no rele- vance. "That the Bill further to amend the Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Orders, [ Translation) 1950 and the Constitution (Scheduled SHRI SURYA NARAYAN YADAV Castes) (Union Territories) Order, 1951 (Saharsa): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would and to amend the Constitution (Jammu 97 Const. (5. C.) orders JVAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) As passed 98 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

and Kashmir) Scheduled Castes Order, SHAI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): I beg 1956, the Constitution (Dadra and Nagar to move: Haveli) Scheduled Castes Order, 1962, the Constitution (Pondicherry) Sched- Page " line 6,- uled Castes Order, 1964 and the Con- stitution (Sikkim) Schedyled Castes after "Buddhist" insert- Order, 1978, as passed by Aajya Sabha, be taken into consideration." "including neo-Buddhist" (25)

The motion was adopted SHAI N. DENNIS (Nagercoil): I beg to move: MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House will now take up c1ause-by-clause con- Page 1, line 6,- sideration of the Bill. ll for , the Sikh or the Buddhist" sub- Clause 2 stitut9-

Amendment of the Constitution (Sched- "the Sikh, the Buddhist orthe Chris- uled Castes) order, 1950 tian" (61)

SHAI G. M. BANATWALLA (Ponnani): SHAI G. M. BANATWALLA (Ponnani): I beg to move: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the educational and economic status of person does not Page 1, line 6,- change overnight as a result of conversion. Now, from a social point of the view though for", the Sikh or the Buddhist" sub- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism etc. don't rec- stitute- ognise caste or untouchability yet those who practise untouchability continue to preach "the Sikh, the Buddhist, the these converts and make their lives miser· Christian or the Muslim" (1) able hence the need for this amendment.

SHAI S. BENJAMIN (Saptala): I beg to move: Now, if the hon. Minister is going to repeat his appeal to the House to withdraw Page 1, line 6,- amendments because he will consider thern at a later date then at feast ona point I must for ",the Sikh or the Buddhist" sub- being to him and that is that hitherto the stitute- Scheduled Caste converts to Buddhist. we are extending the benefits of non-statutory "the Sikh, the Buddhist or the schemes as distinct from legat reservation Scheduled Caste convert Chris- though there were no legal reservation yet. tian" (7) Only the Bill is there today. But before the Bill, non-statutory benefits were also given SHRI SHIKIHO SEMA (Nagaland): I to the Buddhists convert through executive beg to move: orders. In the similar manner executive order can be immediately issued with respect Page 1, line 6,- to Scheduled Caste converts to Christian and Islam. Sir, I would request the hon. for" ,or the Buddhist" substituttr- Ministerto accept my amendments here and now itself. Why should social justice be made ", the Buddhist or the Christian" to wait? I, therefore, request that the amend- (19) ments be accepted by the House. 99 Const. (S.C.) orders MAY 29,1990 As passed 100 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

SHRI S. BENJAMIN (Bapatla): Sir, I not matter to what religion a man belongs; it have got full respect for the Minister. does not matter to what sub-sect or community in a particular religion a man belongs. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You please He will be equal in the eyes of law and in come to the point. society and in regard to the exercise of all rights that are given to those who are more SHRI S. BENJAMIN: The concept of fortunately placed. So, I feel that any undue consciousness has to be implemented. W"h influence might be broughtto bearon people that confidence the same benef"s that were to change their religion or any other extrane- given to one convert will be extended to ous consideration in discarding their own others in future, at least within a short time, faith in any particular religion and accepting as has been promised by the hon. Minister. another faith will no longer exist and in the With that request. of course, I withdraw my circumstances I think it is only fair that we amendment. should take the status quo as it is in regard to religion and put it into our fundamental MR.DEPUTYSPEAKER: Are you going rights, giving the same right to every religion- to request the Members to withdraw their ist." So, I plead with the han. amendments? Minister .... (Interruptions)

[ Translation] I am here as a Member of Parliament. You cannot cow me down. (Interruptions) SHAI RAM VILAS PASWAN: I have already made a request to withdraw the Sir, I personally met the Hon. Minister amendments. Mr. Paswan some two days back and he told me that he is opening the door. So, the door [English] has been just opened. It will not be opened for ever. You will have to close the door. I SHRIA. CHARLES (Trivandrum): From plead, please do not close the door. Each the Statement of Object and Reasons it can Article-articles 14, 15 and 16 may be con- be clearly seen that the Government has sidered and equal treatment may be pro- brought forward a legislation on the ground vided to them. You also provide equal treat- that the change of religion does not alter the ment to the hanjans who are converted into socio-economic condition of a person. I fully christians. So, I press my Amendment. 3gree and support it. But while giVing this concession I strongly plead that the same MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like to concession may be given to .... bring to the notice of all the han. Members in the House that we have sixtysix Amenn- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you ments which were given by the hon. Mem- repeating it again? bers. It would not be necessary for the Members to repeat the points which have SHRI A. CHARLES: Sir. I would just like already been made when they were discuss- to quote one statement. Shri T.T. Krishna- ing the entire Bill as such. So, only if it is machari while speaking on Article 19 said. necessary to point out as to how that Amend- and I quote: ment is different. may be allowed to be explained on the Floor of the House. Please MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You don't help us. Co-operate with us. Don't repeat have toquote. It has already been discussed those points which have already been made very extensively. so that we would be able to dispose of Amendments as well as the Bill. SHRI A. CHARLES: Sir. you just give me a few minutes. I quote" "I have no-doubt. Now Mr. P. C. Thomas. not here. Shri Y. Sir, we have come to a stage when it does S. Rajasekhar Rsddy, absent. Shri Shikiho 101 Const. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) As passed 102 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

Serna, are you speaking on your Amend- give a notice. You have to give a notice, jf it ment? is allegatory or defamatory.

SHRI SHIKIHO SEMA: I beg to move: SHRI SHfKIHO SEMA: But he is an hon. Member of this House. He has an opportu- "Page 1, line 6.- nity to rebut it here. (/ntsffuptions)

for "or the Buddhist" substitut8- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, I would ",the Buddhist or the Christian- (19) request the hon. members, please allow me to conduct the business, otherwise, if there is Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have also a cross talk, then it will be very difficult for me expressed my position to the Government to conduct the business. for including neo-Buddhists in this Constitu· tion (Amendment) Bill. But I found here, ( Interruptions) unfortunately, the christians are discrimi· nated. One example you would see is this. SHRI SHIKIHO SEMA: Then, my point Our Deputy Prime Minister had said that will be like this. Secularism should not only "Christians have no business of staying in be in the Constitution but it should be imple- India and they should go to other countries. " mented. So also this Constitution Amend· He had never denied it. Such statements ment should not only be an Amendment, it have been given by a Deputy Prime Minister. should be practised. Today, why the back- Now, we have moved an Amendmentforthe ward class people, the harijans and others inclusion of Christians also. the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are not coming up? It is because, these are SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): I not implemented with sincerity. Therefore, I have a point of order. move this Amendment that Christians should also be included. I request all the Members MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your to support this Amendment. If you stand for point of order? the minority communities or the minority religions, you should support this Bill. SHRI RAM NAIK: My point of order is this. He has alleged something about the I request all the hon. Members also to Deputy Prime Minister. In that regard he had support my amendment. made certain statements. If an allegation which the Deputy Prime Minister had al· [ Translation] ready refuted outside and now again if the hon. member wants to make that allegation SHRI RAM NAIK: I beg to move I today, then he should give a notice. Without giving a notice, he cannot make such an page 1, line 6, after 'Buddhist' Insert allegation. 'including Neo·Buddhist'.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your point of Mr. Deputy speaker, Sir. in my amend- order is upheld. Now, you will not make any ment I have requested that words "including allegation against any member without giv· Neo-Buddhist" should be inserted after ing any notice. Buddhist mainly because nowhere in the School registers the religion is mentioned. SHRI SHIKIHO SEMA: Mr. Deputy Then now can they get the benefits? In speaker, Sir, the Deputy Prime Minister is Maharashtra in the birth registers maintained also an hon. Member here. Why should I by Gram Panchayat, Municipal Committees give my notice? He has to deny it from here. and Municipal Corporations. the word •• Newo Buddhist" is invariably written. The school MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You have to certificates and Gram Panchayat certificates 103 Canst. (5. C.) ordsrs MAY 29.1990 As pass9CI 104 (Amend.) Bill by Rajya Sabha

[She Ram Naik] { Translation] are seen to ascertain as to which religion a SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Naik person belongs to. If the word liNea Bud- you are a Constitutional expert. In the consti- dhists" is not inserted the II Buddhist" will tution 'Hindu' word was written. later the continue to get the benefits and the liN eo- word 'Sikh' was added and now IBuddhist' Buddhists" will continue to be deprived of word is being added. A separate definition of these benefits. Some officers can make this caste has been given there. The benefits will kind of interpetition. Therefore my sugges- go to those people who have been included tion is that the words including II Neo-Bud- in a separate list of Scheduled Castes. dhists" should be added ~fter the word Similarly benefits will be given to the people IIBuddhists" so that the I'Neo-Buddhist" may who have converted to 'Neo Buddhist' from not face social deprivation. This is my amend- Scheduled Castes. Yesterday Mayawati ji ment and I hope that the hone Minister will had also said that by adding the word 'Neo- accept it. Buddhist' people will come to know that these peopl~ belong to the Scheduled [English] Castes, but it can have an affect in other way also. Therefore in constitution, first the word MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Peter G. 'Hindu' then the word 'Sikh' were mentioned Marbaniang and Mr. Palai K. M. Mathew are and now the word 'Buddhist' has been added. not present. Mr. Harish Rawat. They will now get the facilities available to Scheduled Castes. SHRt HARISH RAWAT (Almora): I am not moving my amendment. SHRI RAM NAIK: On the basis of the assurance given by the Han. Minister that MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Eduardo this facility will be given to 'Neo-Buddhists,' Faleiro is not here. Mr. Charles has spoken. I would like to withdraw my amendment. Mr. Dennis is not here. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: These will Now, is it the wish of the House, and of be given to 'Neo-Buddhists' only. those Members who have moved their amendments, that their amendments should [English] be put together, or separately? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Has Mr. Ram SOME HON. MEMBERS: Separately. Naik the leave of the House to withdraw his amendment? ( Interruptions) SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes SHRI G. M. BANATWAllA: In view of the r9peated assurance of the hone Minister, Amendment No. 25 was, by leave, I would like to seek leave of the House to withdrawn withdraw my amendment. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now I will put MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Has Mr. all other amendments together to the vote of Banatwalla the leave of the House to with- the House, viz amendments No.7, 19, and draw his amendment? 61 :

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes Amendm9nts Nos. 7, 19 and 61 werll put Amendment No. 1 was, by leave, with- and negatived drawn MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The ques- ( InterruptIOns) tion is: 105 Const. (S.C.) orders JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) As passed 106 (Amend.) Bill by Rajys Sabha

IIThat Clause 2 stand part of the Bill." but they are either not moving their amendments or are not present in the House. I shall, The Motion was adopted therefore. put Clause 5 to the vote to the House. The question is: Clause 2 was added to the Bill "That Clause 5 stand part of the Bill." MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There are amendments to clause 3 by Shri Banatwalla The motion was adopted and others. Is Mr. Banatwalla moving? Clause 5 was added to the Bill SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA: In view of the assurances by the han. Minister. and in MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: A number of the hope that they will have the courage of members have given notices of amendments, conviction, I do not press or move any of my but they are either not moving their amend- amendments to this and all other clauses. ments or are not present in the House. I shall. therefore, put Clause 6 to the vote to the SHRI S. BENJAMIN: An assurance was House. The quostion is: given by the Minister as the chief guest during one occasion in New Delhi itself. I "That Clause 6 stand part of the Bill." request that that assurance which was given by the hon. Minister may be kept. The motion was adopted

With these remarks, I say that I am not Clause 6 was added to the Bill moving my amendment no. 2 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: A number of MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: A number of members have given notices of amendments. members have given notices of amendments, but they are either not moving their amend- but they are either not moving their amendments or arA not present in the House. I shall. ments or are not present in the House. I shall. therefore. put Clause 7 to the vote of the therefore, put Clause 3 to the vote of the House. The question is: House. The question is: "That Clause 7 stand part of the Bill." "That clause 3 stand part of the Bill." The motion was adopted The motion was adopted Clause 7 was added to the Bill Clause 3 was added to the Bill MR. OEPUlY SPEAKER: The question MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: A number of is: members have given notices of amendments, but they are either not moving their amend- "That Clause I, the Enacting Formula ments or are not present in the House. I shall. and the Long Title stand part of the therefore. put Clause 4 to the vote of the Bill. " House. The question is: The motion was adopted "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill." Clause 1. the Enacting Formula and the The motion was adopted Long Title were added to the Bill

Clause 4 was added to the Bill SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: I beg to move: MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: A number of members have given notices of amendments, "That the Bill be passed." 107 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 108

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The ques· you taking up Item No. 12?( Interruptions) tion is: PROF. P.J. KURIEN (Mavelikara):That "That the Bill be passed." means only half an hour is left for discussion. No. We want more time. The voting r.annot The motion was adopted be at 3.30 P. M. We cannot agree to it.

SHRI P. UPENDRA: We have already discussed the matters about Scheduled 14.56 hrs. Castes and Scheduled Tribes very extensively. I do not think that there is any thing CONSTITUTION (SIXTY-EIGHTH more to be discussed. AMENDMENT) BllL-CONTO SHRI HARISH RAWAT: There are a tot [English} of han members who want to express their views on this. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We now take up further consideration of the following MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I had thought motion moved by Shri Ram Vilas Paswan, that you, the han. members and the leaders on 28th May, 1990, namely:- in the House had discussed and decided upon the time when the voting would take "That the Bill further to amend the place. I do to know as to how you want to go C'"onstitution of India, be taken into con- about it. We will start with the discussion.

sideration." You can d,scuss it. Tentatively I we will take it that the v~~ing will take place at 3.30 p.m. ( Interruptions) tt seems that the han. members are eagerto speak. But it should also be taken into ac- THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION count that hon: members have spoken on AND BROADCASTING AND MINISTER OF this Bill and they have made some points PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI P. and probably it may not be necessary to UPENDRA): Sir, earlier, we understood that make long speeches. In view of this, let few the votmg on the Constitution (Amendment) of you sit together and you may decide and Bill will be once at 2.30 P.M. and at 5.30 P. M. let us know. And afterwards the Presiding for the second time. I think we are going to Officer would see at what time exactly the take up voting on the first Bill at 3.30. Is there voting could take place. Tentatively 3.30 a"!y change now? p.M. would be the time.

MR .. DEPUTY SPEAKER: After you SHRI L. K. ADVANI (New Delhi): Mr. have made the announcement , have re- OepJty Speaker, there is another dimension ceived a letter from some hon. members. to this issue. that the Business Advisory Committee allotted certain time and that SHRI P. UPENORA: We have di~cussed time allotted time was two hours. I am told the matter. that the discussion has already taken place for three hours. It is entirely up to you. But MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: 1do not know there ought to be some method by which we what happened. You discussed with them regulate our proceedings and in this case, and I do not know what the discussIon was evan though in the morning it was announced that the voting will take place at 3.30 P. M. we SHAI P. UPENDRA: It was agreed to are willing to go by the latest announcement. have the voting at 3 30 and 5.30 P.M. But there should be no flexibility even beyond that. Then it becomes absolutely ab- SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almora): Are surd. My submission is that in this case, 109 Constitution JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bi/I 110 because it is a Constitution (Amendment) Meham case (/nte"uptions) : The govern- Bill, every Member should be told that by and ment can do 3rlything. We demanded time large the voting will take place at 3.30 P.M. and again that those papers should be placed It can be five to ten minutes this way or that on the Table of the House, the papers have way. That one can understand. But if seven been received by the Government. It has members want to speak. then there is no been admitted by the han. Minister Shr; :'l. question of voting taking place at 3.30 P.M. Upendra and also by the Prime Minister that those papers have been received and we But my submission is that, because the also said that we are prepared to cooperate Business Advisory Committee has prescribed with the Government. I do not know what a certain time and that has been exceeded prevents the Government from placing these already, even after that we should confine it papers on the Table of the House. (/nt9"Up- to 3.30 P.M. tions)

SHRI P. R. KUMARAMANGALAM 15.00 hr•. (Salem): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as per the Business Advisory Committee, an hour and SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE 34 minutes are still In balance. There is still (8olpur): You are trying to stop the passing an hour and 34 minutes left on this topic for of the Constitution Amendment Bill. This is discussion. The time is not over. Whoever your real object. You do not want this Con- has lold you has given you wrong stituent Amendment Bill to, be passed. Sir, on interpretation ..... (Interruptions) these two important Bills, repeatedly they are raising the same questions .... (lnterrup- PROF. P. J. KURIEN (Coimbatore): Let tions) us go by the decision ...... (interruptions) SHRI VASANT SATHE (Wardha): We MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You must have said t he we are willing to cooperate and address the Chair. uptill-now you have seen that on every issue, we are cooperating. Even on this issue, we PROF. P. J. KURIEN : An hour and 30 are saying that we are willing to cooperate. minutes are there, yet to be finished, that is But, the attitude of the Government is that what I understand. We will go by that. Sec- they do not want to place any papers on the ondly. I want to make a submission through Table of the House . ... (Interruptions) you again to the Government because we want to know what is the reaction of the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take Government on the points raised by Shri your seats. Mr. Kurian, please taka your Dinesh Singh, Shri Sathe Ji and other hon. seat. Members from this side, supported by hon. ( Int8"Uptions) Shri L. K. Advani and Shri Somnath Chatter- . jee that the papers on Boffors, the Report SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE partaining to ...... (/ntprruptions) We wantto (Bolpur): You do not want thIS Constitution know the reaction of the Government on all Amendment Bill to be passed. That is your this (Interruptions) real objective ... (Interruptions)

It was only made clear in the morning MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will you take not only from this side but also from the other your seat. Mr. Kumaramangalam? r would side that the Government should place on request you not to talk to yourseH in this the Table of the House all the papers regard- fashion because if you are talking to each ing Bofors and A the Table of the t louse all other, well. I do not know who will control or the papers regarding Bofors and A 320 and reguJate the proceedings of the House. So, also announce the terms of reference with if you have to make any point, please make regard to the apPOintment of a Judge in tho that point through the Chair so that if there is 111 Constitution MAV29t 1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 112 any reply to be given. it should be possible. regarding the Bofors Report. We will take the Otherwise, if you go on talking to each other. Leaders of the various parties into confi- it becomes very difficult to regulate the pro- dence. Hsome Reports or some papers can ceeding. I have allowed Mr. Kurien to make not be placed on the Table of the House, we a point. It one or two Members want to reply I win explain it to them. We will take the leader they would be allowed. But do not talk to of the House into confidence. I have the each other plaase. Vas, Mr. Kurien, you impression that the Opposition Party is fully complete your point quickly ... committed to passing these two Constitution Amendment BUls and I hope they will not give an impression that they want to make it a condition precedent that to pass the Bills, [Translation] first the papers should be laid on the Table of the House. I do not think this is a correct MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: If you want attitude. It is not a constructive cooperation that the proceedings of the House should at all. Today we are determined to put the continue then do not talk to each other. If you Bills to vote and if at all the Congress party do not want it that is another matter. wants to take a different attitude, they are free to do so. If the Bill falls through, the [English) responsibility will be on them. As regards the time for this Bill, as I have already said, the PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Sir, we have earlier bill was allotted only 2 hours, but we offered to the Government our cooperation have spent nearly four hours on that. Be- in passing the Bills and just now also ... cause we wanted to take up both the Bills ( Interruptions) together, I thought that the first Bill need not take so much time. Now. we have already MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Kurien, spent about 1 1/2 hours and I think in another this has been very amply made clear. You half-an-hour or 45 minutes we COUld rom- please be brief now. plated the consideration of this Bill and take upthe voting ofthis Bill. sothatthe Members PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Sir. for the last will know what time they have to be present one week, time and again, we have been because it requires special majority. I would asking in the House that these papers should request the hon. Members of Kindly con- be placed on the Table of the House. We clude this debate in half-an-hour or so and further said that our cooperation is subject to take up voting of the Bill. Government's reaction to our request, which I hope everybody will agree is a genuine MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, we request. Hon. Advaniji also supported it. So, have the sense of the House that the time I would only like to say that as long as allotted for this Bill was three hours and the Government do not come forward with these time taken so far is one hours and 26 min- papers and unless they are placed on the utes. Now, I would say that the voting wilt Table of the House, we reserve our right with take place at 4 O'clock and the Members regard to the cooperation we have already may be present in the House at that time to offered. That right we reserve. I would like to vote. know what is the reaction of the Government in this regard. SHRI P. UPENDRA: The second Bill is also pending. You may kindly inform the SHRI P. UPENDRA: Sir, the hon. Members so that both these Bills will have to Members opposite raised the question of be passed and sent to the Rajya Sabha laying of certain papers In the morning, and because they are scheduled to be taken up the matter is under the consideration of the in the Rajya Sabha because they are sched- Govemment. We have not rejected the uled to be taken up in the Rajya Sabha demand. There are certain developments tomorrow and the House is sitting to receive 113 Constitution JVAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 114 these Bills. By 6 O'clock, we will pass these t88. The problems of Scheduled Castes and two bills. Scheduled Tribes are known to the hon. Minister, not that they are new to him. He MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The voting comes from the State, that is, Bihar where on the second Bill will take place at 6 O'clock. millions of Scheduled Castes and Sched- uled Tribes are suffering from various kinds SHRI KUSUMA KRISHNA MURTHY of humiliations, oppreSSions and harass- (Amalapuram): Mr. Oeputy-Speaker, Sir, the ments and now he has brought forward one Constitution 68th Amendment Bill, 1990 is a measure which is top-sided and incomplete very significant Bitt during the last 40 years of because you are depriving a sedion of our independence relating to the problem of Scheduled Caste converts from getting the Scheduted Castes and Scheduled Tribes. same benefits as other get by not including Sir, for that purpose, the Constitution Sched- them in this List. They have not committed uled Tribes Orders Amendment 8i1l1990 is any sin. Unless they are prompted by politi- equally significant and that Bill was intro- cal motives, when you want to bring a Bill, duced by the hon. Minister of labour and you should bring a complete and compre- Welfare. The discussion had already started hensive Bift and treat them all on par with yesterday and it was left in the middle and them. When they bring a Bill like this, one the present Bill has been taken up for discus- more important thing to be taken into consid- sion. Now, we can understand that whenone eration is the census of these people. Al- Bill was introduced, without completing the ready there is a hue and cry that when once discussion on that Bill, the second Bill relat- a section of the people are included, the ing to the probtem of the Scheduled Castes percentage needs to be increased. That and the Scheduled Tribes was taken up. step needs to be taken. From this, we can very wet! understand the haste with which the Constitution Amend- MR. CHAIRMAN: You please don't ment Bills are taken up. follow the Minister to make a long speech. The time is very short. There are many many 15.13 hrs. Members to speak. (Interruptions) I have to give time to each one of them. [SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE in the Chailj SHRI KUSUMA KRISHNA MURTHY: Made, yesterday I had to initiate this discus- Madam, this Bill, which was taken up for sion. Rangaji made some observations. That discussion yesterday but was left in the is why I am speaking today. This a serious middle, has been completed today. This kind matter. This Bill was brought today and dis- of exercise has started now. Madam, on the cussion started. one hand they are shouting at the top of their voice that they are going to do a lot for the Madam Chairperson, the hone Minister benefit of the Scheduled Castes and Sched- made a lot of observations and promises and uled Tribes, especially during the l:'irth Cen- he also knows specifically that even if we tenary of Dr. Ambedkar and on the other the bring a thousand laws here, they will not way in which this Constitution Amendment touch even the fringe of the problem of Bill has been treated in a very casual man- Scheduled Castes unless two pre-requisites ner, shows the importance given to the prob- are fulfilled in this country. The first one is, lems of the Scheduled Castes and Sched- unless there isa basic change in the attitude uled Tribes. In fact, yesterday the hone Min- of the people of this country, nothing could ister made a long speech and he almost be achieved. Secondly, to give minimum promised moon to the Scheduled Castes safeguards guaranteed in the Constitution, and the Scheduled Tribes through his wh~never there is a violation, unless puni- measures. In fact, we will have a forum to tive measures are taken, nothing can be work together in a Parliamentary Commit- achieved. He knows it. There is no dearth of , 115 Constitution MAY 29.1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 116

[Sh. Kusuma Krishna Murthy] they are really sincere. the recommendations should be made mandatory and when- reports, there is not dearth of recommenda- .,.r there is a violation in giving minimum tions and there is no dearth of high level or safaeuards to the people, punitive measures low level committees. Plenty of them are must be. there. The hon. Minister promised there. By simply bringi ng constitutional status this. If he brings this also, definitely it Viii! go to this, it does not serve any purpose. a long way in tackling the real problems of the Scheduled C8$tes. This is an important In the Bill it was mentioned that the aspect. The reports 8lld recommendations Commission's objective is to investigate of this National Commission should be regu- matters relating to the safeguards, evaluate larly discussed. Whenever there is a viola- the working of the safeguards, examine tion in the implementation of the recommen- specific complaints. present reports and get dations, then necessary safeguards must be the recommendations implemented. These provided to take penal action. kinds of things were given when the Com- mission was appointed and again when the MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude now. same Bill was brought on 21.7.1978 by the Home Ministry's Resolution, the Commis- SHRI KUSUMA KRISHNA MURTHY: sion was formed and all these objectives In the Constitution, we have provided safe- were there and all kinds of duties were also guards under Article 16(4}. Still we have a there. huge backlog. The Minister has promised to wipe out the same. But he should remember MR. CHAIRMAN: Please be brief. Within thanhe implementing class is the same. We two minutes you please conclude. have not changed the bureaucratic set-up. They are there and they are the main stum- SHRI KUSUMA KRISHNA MURTHY: bling block. Simply by giving recommendations, the purpose will not be served. We have number MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude. of reports on the problems of Scheduled Now, I will call Mr. Ram Dhan. I have given Castes and Scheduled Tribes. There is Elai you enough time. PArusal Committee Report and there is the Shilo Oao Committee Report. I also had the SHRI KUSUMA KRISHNA MURTHY: I opportunity to associate myself personally will conclude now. This National Commis- with the prevIous Chairman, late Mr. Bhola sion and its recommendations should be Paswan Shastri. late Mr. K. Rajamallu and mandatory and they should be provided with tha present Member of Parliament, Mrs. M. punitive measures for dealing with any viola- Chandrasekhar, and Mr. Bikabhai. and even tion. Then only, the purpose of this Bill will the present ChaIrman who has been ap- serve the interest of the Schedult3d Castes pointed to this Commission, Mr. Ram Dhan. and the Scheduled Tribes. I know their feelings and their reactions about this. Recommendations and reports [ Translation] do not serve any purpose. Unless the recommendations are made mandatory, we will SHRI RAM DHAN (Lalganj): Madam not be able to achieve the objective for which Chairpersons. the doubt which was raised this amendment is brought By giving simply by the Constitution makers is being removed a constitutional status, Heaven is not going after 42 years. This point was raised in the to fall, we are not going to achieve anythiny Constituent Assembly and at that time the in this country. We have seen the plight of the Convenor of the minonty Committee. Sardar millions of the people and simply because Vallabh Bhai Patel, had suggested appoint- they are bringing a Bill and giving a ment of special officer for minorities and after constitutional status, the problem of Sched- a request by Shri Anant Sayanan Ayangar. uled Castes are not going to be solved. If Baba Saheb Ambedker restricted it to Schad- 117 Constitution JYAISTHA 8. 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 118 uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes only. In member votes for this Bill, other wise we will Clause 3, Anglo-Indian and other backward have to face the some consequences. It will 'classes were mentioned but I do not want to be known as to how many members are go into it and I also do not want to report what supporting the Bill and how many members happened at that time in this connection. are present in the House. All this will come on record and we will come to know how much In 1978, the Janata Party was in power. cooperation they are extending and how The Janata party had mentioned in its many members are serious in passing such manifesto that all the objectives are not met an important Bill. I wanted that the sugges- by appointment of Commissioner for Sched- tion made by he Shastriji should be incorpo- uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and there- rated in the Bill as they were not provided fore, a national commission should be set therein in the Bill introduced earlier by han. up. In its resolution of 1987, the Congress Minister. I talked to him in this regard, he said Government added the word 'National' be- that secretaries do not agree with it. Later I fore 'Commission' and said that necessary talked to the Hon. Prime Minister in this change had been made. They added word' regard. I want to share with you that when National' only and did nothing. this proposal of accepting the chairmanship of National Commission was made, I said SHRI HARISH RAWAT (Almora): It was that I would accept the offer only if the your suggestion. Commission is conferred with meaningful powers. The Prime Minister intervened. The SHRI RAM DHAN: It was not our sug- rElsult is three of my amendments, have gestion. Hour suggestion had been accepted, been accepted by the Government which things would not have deteriorated to this have been brought before you as Govern- extend. ment amendments.

I want to say that the function of both Without taking much time of the House, were almost the same. Therefore, all the I want to say one thing more. This Commis- Members of Parliament, all the parties sion visited the Aarwal district in Bihar demanded again and again that commission alongwith spec Members who is the presi- should have enough teeth so that they can dent of it, there were members of commis- do something. This Bill has been brought in sion and also of Parliament. An employee accordanc~ with the election manifesto of made a complaint bef01'ethem. The Oy. S.P. the National Front Government. I do not who was with commission told the SOD to want to go in other things but I want to say note down the name of the employee and that aboutthe Bill which has been introduced said that they would deal with him after the Shri Kusum Krishna Murti has said that it is commission has left. This is the status of the totally a repetition I have the report of the commission. In the same district the district commissioner for Scheduled Castes and officer said that he had no time to meet the Scheduled Tribes for 1978. The Chairman of commission and if the commission wants to this Commission, Shri Bhola Paswan Shas- meet us it should visit them on such and such triji, had made some suggestions. The date and such and such time, this the state Government proposed to introduce the 46th of commission. The powers of the commis- Constitutional Amendment Bill, which pro- sion whether these are of States or of the vided nothing except making some recam· centre, are limited up to making recommen- mendations. That Bill could not be intro- dations, they are only recommendatory and duced. A 51 st Constitutional Amendment not mandatory. The Congress Government Bill was about to be brought but before this do diluted the ~.978 proposal and made it a could be done the Government fell. I had mere research body in 1987. Therefore we said at that time also and today I want to say want to inform the House of the Changes to the Hen. Minister of Parliament Affair. incorporated in the Bill introduced now. today that it shOuld be ensured that every Present hon. Prime Minister has given full 119 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 120

[Sh. Ram Dhan] tant Director, Senior Investigator and Inves- tigator and they can be transferred. The liberty to incorporate in the Bill mandatory office of the Commissioner also have the powers for the Commission. employees of the rave category and all of them can be transferred in other depart- I want to say that even today the bu- ments. All of them are working under a Joint reaucracy, behaved with the Commission in Secretary of the Ministry of Welfare. Until the same manner in which they behave with this arrangement continues it will remain as Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. I a department of the Ministry of Welfare. am constraint to report these things. I do not Therefore, the Government should give it a want to repeat what I have said earlier. Due status of an independent body like U.P.S.C. to shortage of time. I would like to place atew or C.A.G., only then required improvements points before you. can be made. Otherwise stagnation of the Ministerial Staff will continue. Even the Di- The Hon. Minister dealt with the revision rector and Deputy Director can not be trans- of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled ferred from one department to other depart- Tribes list yesterday and today also he made ment. The fact is this that this Commission a mention of it. Efforts were made twice, does not have any effective cadre Control- regarding revision of SC/ST lists, first when ling Authority. No action can be taken against Shri P. Govind Menon was the Minister of a peon and only the Ministry of Welfare can Social WeHare and secondly when the Janata take any action t would like to suy that if such Party was in power in 1978. A Committee type of treatment is done with this Commis- was constituted under the Chairmanship of sion, it will be useless to bring amendments Shri Surajbhanji. The Committee toured the in the constitution. Some people have ex- whole country dUring these two years to pressed their views about bureaucracy and identify as to which castes should be in- I would also like to say something in this cluded In this list and which should be de- regard. Some hon. Members said yesterday leted from it and then it prepared a report. But that adverse remarks are made in the Con- by that time that Government fell and the fidential Reports. I do not want to say any- report of that committee could not be pre- thing about suitable candidate or suitability. sented. That report is lying in the waste The Ministry is doing recruitment and pro- paper basket today. We have been remind- motions. (Interruptions) Shri Bala ing the Minister of Welfare Shrimati Rajen- Subramanian is an investigator and it was dra Kumari Vajpaithat she should gothrough agreed to transfer him. (Interruptions) Broof this leport and revise the list accordingly . the Ministry said that Commission has not •The Minister told us that first, the State right to take decision about these issues. Governments should send their suggestions What is the position of this Commission and then it would be brought before the today? I would like to say one more thing House and thereaftor the list would be final- about this Commission that some Assistant ised, I want to say that if the present Govern- Director or Deputy Directors are working an ment implements this report of SuraJbhan od·hoc basis for the last five or six years as Committee, many of problems being faced stated by the members of the previous in thiS regard will be solved. Government. The previous Government had said that ad-hocism would not continue and I would like to tell you how the commis- they would write to the U.P.S.C. for it. what sion is being treated. If any employee or has been done by the U.P.S.C. Only officers officer has to be punished, he is posted in had been posted at Dandkaranya Project. this Commission. Only those persons are There was a proposal to post the veterinary posted in the Commission to whom other doctors as Assistant Directors therQ but the Departments want to give punishment. (Inter- Commissioner refused to take them. Such ruptions) ThiS IS a joint technical cadre. It type of things are happening there. I would cons,sts of Director, Deputy Director. Assis- like to thank the hon. Minister for accepting 121 Constitution JYAISTHA 8.1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) 8ill 122 my three amendments. I would like to move SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Is this the some more amendments, which I consider special case? necessary for smooth functioning of this Commission. Therefore, I would request you to accept these amendments also. If you accepts all these amendments it can func- MR. CHAIRMAN: Your turn will also tion more smoothly. I would like to say that if come. this Commission works as a department of Ministry of Welfare. then there is no use of ( Interruptions) passing constitution Amendment Bills. SHRI KHEMCHANDBHAI SOMASHAI I would like to say that until all the State CHAVOA: Madam, I am not yielding. They Governments, the Ministries of the Central said if the Government does not lay all the Government and Public UndE!rtakings have papers relating to Sofarcs Gun deal and the any co-operation it will remain useless. I A-320 Airbus deal they will not cooperate. would like to request ~he hone Minister again Without the cooperation of the Congress (I) and again that all these suggestions should Members, the Constitution Amendment Bill be accepted by the President while framing for setting up the National Commission for the rules because sometimes all these things Scheduled Castes Scheduled Tribes and are not provided under the rules and some the other Constitution Amendment Bill for things are not discussed during discussions land reforms cannot be passed which every- on the Bill. Therefore, I feel that in the ab- one knows in this House. It requires a major· sence of these amendmentthe commission ity of the total membership of the House and can not function effectively. With these words 2. majority of not less than two-thirds of the I thank you for providing me an opportunity to Members present and voting. 'Their behav- speak. iour shows that they are not serious. They show lip sympathy for scheduled Castes and [English J Scheduled Tribes. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: As a special case, I SHRI UTTAM RATHOD: Don't cast call upon Shri K.S. Chavda as his son is ill. aspersions. (Interruptions) But I request you to be brief. SHRI KHEMCHANDBHAI SOMABHAI SHRI KHEMCHANDBHAI SOMABHAI CHAVDA: I am not casting aspersions. It is CHAVDA (Patan): Madam Chair-person, I a fact. I am dissatisfied. I have been sitting rise to support the Constitution 68th Amend- here, throughout the Session and watching ment Bill, 1990. while doing so, , would like your performance. (Interruptions) to make some observations. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pleasedo not involve in cross-talks. Madam, I was surprised yesterday and I am surprised today also to hear the senior ( Interruptions) hone Member, Shri Ranga and hone Member Shri Dinesh Singh saying that they would SHAI KHEMCHANDBHAI SOMABHAI with-draw their cooperation, if the Govern- CHAVDA: It is a matter of regret that even ment does not lay all on the Table of the after 43 years of Independence, the Sched- Hou&e the papers pertaining to Bofors Gun uled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes are deal and Air Bus deal. not brought socially and economically at par with the rest of the society in our country. The scheme for the post·merit scholarship, the (/nt9ffuptions) scheme for the reservation in admission to 123 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 124

[Sh. Khemchandbhai Somabhai Chawda] got so many vote<; (Interrruptions) I nm repeatedly requesting the 1Government to the institutional educations the scheme tor bring forward a Bi1I as early as possible to the reservation in the recruitment to the exclude to Mochisfrom the scheduled Government service and posts and the Of castes. fice of the Commissioner of Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes had worked well Now I come to another point. The for some years. But.when the Deputy Zonal State Trading Corporation and all other Directors working under the Commissioner public sector undertakings have devised a were transferred to work under the General new promotion policy-which is not based Secretary of the Department of Social Wel on vacancies-in order to exclude the fare, the Office of the Commissioner ofSC/ scheduled castes from the benefit of ST became very weak. reservation in promotions. I would request the Government that the policy should be Secondly, in 1985, the work relating to rejected by the Government at once and the welfare of Scheduled Castes and the instructions should be sent to the Scheduled Tribes was transferred from the :iuthorities concerned to scrap th is new pol Home Affairs Ministry to the Ministry of Social 1c:y . Welfare. And that 1s also the reason why, the work becamevery very slow. ( Interruptions) A new Ministry should be createdfor There is a wide gap between there preach the welfare work relating to the scheduled ing and the practice of the Congress (I). I will castes and the scheduled tribes. It should tell you one example. Mochis are not un be solely responsible for the welfare work touchables in Gujarat. They do not live in the for these people. If it is not possible. then outskirtsof the villages and the slums in the put this welfare work under the Ministry of cities. They draw water from the same vil Home Affairs. It was very good when it was lage common well. Even Brahmins perform in the Home Ministry. But 1t was removed religious ceremonies in the case of A..fochis from the Home Ministry and p11t under the but not is the case of scheduled castes. And Ministry of Social Welfare. yet in 1976, the Congress (I} Government, by amending the Constitutional Order, I do not want to take more time as I included Mochis in the list of scheduled have to go. I thank you . Madam for giving castes. me a chance to speak.

My friend, Shri Ratilal Kalidas Varma. SHRI UTTAM RATHOD (Hingoli): ·;ust now said that they are not untouchables Madam Chairperson, rt gives me a great ad, therefore. they should be excluded from pleasure to support this Constitutional the Constitutiona I Order. I would like to know Amendment Bill on this occasion. I do not from Shri Ram Vilas Paswan, whether he is agree with the hon. Member who just now going to exclude Mochis in Gujarat from the spoke that the importance of the welfare of Constitutionaf (Scheduled Castes) Order, the scheduled castes and the scheduled 1950 and, if so, when? tribes has been minimised by removing it from the Home Ministry to the Welfare The House was kind enough to grant Ministry. In the contrary, I say, the Minister, me leave to introduce a Bill for the exclusion who is in charge of it. has been made of Mochisof Gujarat from the list of sched responsible to look after this Ministry. It uled castes. (Interruptions) This is a very was Mr. Rajiv Gandhi who started it. I am importantpoint because I got 2, 13,000 votes happy that today not only a State-level merely on this point. They are not untouch Minister but a fultfledged Minister has ables. But still they are taking the benefits been appointed as the Welfare Minister available to the scheduled castes. That is who is expected to look into the welfare of why I defeated Shri Yogendra Makwana and the scheduled castes and the scheduled tribes. The percentage of the total number of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, as it stands today, is 125 Constitution JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 126

21.46 per cent. Madam inspite of 43 years' [ Trans/ation ] efforts, we have not been able to achieve our target. He has rightly said that we could not H we have rejected, you can set it right. bring them in the main stream. There is also a demand from other communities that they SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: We will should be included either in the Scheduled do that. Why are you blaming us. The M.P. Castes or Scheduled Tribes, especially he was of your party. You rejected. Vimuktha Jathis and the nomadic trib~s. Though the Mandai Commission has recom- [Eng/ish 1 mended that the then communities should be included in the Scheduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes but that has not been SHRI UTIAM RATHOD: Recently, taken care of. I want to bring to the notice of during the last one and a half months, the the hon. Minister and the House that so far area of operation of this particular ;society we lost our lives, out caste men have lost was reduced and it was added to some other their childhood. Can this House or can any society and thus the licences were rejected. Government think of bringing their childhood I would like to know as to what you are going back so that they can" go and educate to do about it. Secondly, fake certificates themselves? No. It would not be possible have been issued for SCs and STs. What are and that is why, I say that all the efforts you going to do about it? Their appeals are should be directed to see that by a specific, pending in the High Court for more than two time-bound programme, all these people years. I think it is high time that the Welfare are brought in the national mainstream and Minister takes up such issues and ask the to see that they also lead an honourable life. State Governments and the High Court to Yesterday when Mr. Bhartiya spoke, he said expedite the judgement in such cases so that he was very unhappy about the Con- that the rightful persons may not be depnved gress rule. I was pained to hear that. Let me of their claims and the wrong persons who tell you that we had made a beginning at have fake certificates, which they obtain by least. It was a beginning which we made. Do dishonest means do not get the benefit. not expect that everything will be achieved in Fake certificates should not be allotted by a tlme~bound programme. But at least, we the Welfars Ministry. Mr. Arvind Netam said did make an effort. I think Mr. Ram Vilas sometime back that five tribes under Sched- Pas wan said that they have achieved 90 per uled Vare not properly looked after. I want ~nt of the target. May I tell Mr. Ram Vilas the statistics of the people belonging to the Pas wan that the Harijan chief promoters of tribes under Schedule V who have become sugar factory are denied licences and the lAS and IPS officers. You will find that mostly upper caste people are given licences dur- people belonging to the tribes of Scheduled Ing your period? Your own, Harijan brother VI are in these posts. There are very few in have been denied the licences though they these posts from the tribes of Scheduled V. ,.ave got a High Court order with them. Our He was saying that in UP, they are not people have no time 10 look into that. treated as STs. Madam, this is high time that they look into it and give more weightage to [ Translation] the tribes who are covered under Scheduled V. Some sort of accountability should be THE MINISTER OF LABOUR AND there. Mr. Ram Dhan also spoke in this WELFARE (SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN): regard. Let me hope that something will Who, during whose regime it was rejected? come up. let me express my view. I do not mind you taking all the credit. But we should • [English] see that the poor people, the tribals, the down-trodden people, the backward people, SHRI UTIAM RATHOO: Mr. T.N. the OBCs etc. are expecting justice from you Sawant, the han. Member of this House. and it should not be denied. 127 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bi// 128

[Sh. Uttam Rathod] things about the bureaucracy. I do not know what he was doing when he was a member Now, I want to speak something aboUt of the ruling party. Why did he not raise it at the Mandai Commission. Unfortunately, that time? action on the Mandai Commission report has been pending and I have been fighting MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Nani Bhat- for it since 1980. I am happy that the hon. tacharya. Member who used to help me is now the Minister incharge of Welfare. Please do not SHRI HARISH RAWAT: I rise on a point wait any more. Our children are losing their of order. When the time was extended, it was age for education. Please see that some- our impression that only Members from our thing is done for them; some concession is side will be called, but what is now happen- given to them so that they can receive edu- ing is that most of the extended time is being cation and they make themselves able to taken by the Members from the Treasury •lave some sort of emp1oyment. Do not delay Benches. We have taken only sixteen min- 1(; who knows even this Government may fall utes and our three Members are left. Kindly and we may again loss an opportunity. Shri can them also. Ram Dhan himself has said that twice we thought of amending the Scheduled Castes MR. CHAIRMAN: You have fixed upthe and Scheduled Tribes list, but on both the time. My policy is not to leave out any party. occasions, the Government fen and that is I am trying my level best to accommodate as why, I am afraid, this couid be that trick; for many Members as possible. I am appealing the third time it may happen. Let me hope to both sides also. that this would not happen and at least in the next Monsoon session, they woutd take it up. SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Out of the extended time, we have taken only sixteen Yesterday, the hon. Members, Shri minutes. Bhartiya said so many things. I was sorry that he criticised a senior Member of the MR. CHAIRMAN: I know which parties stature of Prof. Ranga. We all were young at have not spoken and they have to be given one time, as a Khalil Jibran's story g08S- time. when you see the morning shadow, you feel that you are too big, but you realise your Now, Shri Nani Bhattacharya. limitations in the afternoon, when you look to your shadow. I will o~ly say, it was all right for SHRIHARISHRAWAT: lamnotagainst his age, but do not tell it again. Do not cast them; k;ndly call them also. aspersions on people who have fought for freedom, who have been fighting for these SHAI NANI BHATIACHARAYA (Ber- causes. Do not try to throw dirt at the doors hampors): Madam, at the outset, I would of the previous Government. We have done express our supporttothis Constitution (Sixty- enough. Let us try to be more sabre in the eighth Amendment) Bill. It is a welcome 43rd year of our independence. We are now move by the National Front Government and more than forty years old. I thank this Government forthis, I particularly thank Shri Ram Vilas Paswan who has moved [ Translation] this Bill.

We should have some sobriety. It is 16.00 hr•. wrong to say 1hat this Government is good and that Government was bad. Who are you If we go through the provision of the 8ill, to decide it. we see that certain safeguards were provided, certain welfare measures were made [English] against the injustice being done with respect Evan Shri Ram Dhan says so many to the tribal people and SC/ST people. 129 Constitution JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 130

Madam. we know fully well what is the As I said earlier, I welcome this Bill but positron of the Scheduled Caste and Sched- still a lot remains to be done in this Bill. I uled Tribe people in our country. They are welcome this Bill particularly because, now a subjected to ... National Commission will be set up according to the provisions of this Bill. That Com- MR. CHAIRMAN: The House seems to mission will be appointed by the President of be in an unrest. India. Naturally, the Cabinet, which repre- sents the will of the country, have got ample SHRINANIBHATTACHARYA:Madam, opportunity to advise the President regard- they are subjected to extreme form of exploi- ing the functioning of the Commission, tation, worst form of social oppression. That powers and other duties of the Commission we all know. The other day I expressed my which are not stated in the Bill itself. feeling with regard to their miserable plight. Even during the earlier regime, i.e. The I will not take much time of the House Congress rule, certain measures to safe- because I was already asked to take only guard the interest of the Scheduled Tribes two minutes. So, that two minutes had and Scheduled Caste people were taken but already passed. So, again I will render my those measures proved to be failure. And, as support to the Bill which was moved by Shri you know, during the Congress regime, the Paswanji and I think it is a move in the right atrocities were let loose by a section of upper direction. If it is properly implemented and if class people againstthe harijans and against the National Commission properly works, the SC/ST people. When Congress Govern- then definitely, we shall be able to give some ment was there, many promises were made. relief, some succour to the down-trodder When Congress was in the Centre, there section of the Indian peoJJle. were scenes of mass massacre of harijans, down trodden people and backward people. MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, Mr. Sultanpu' These were the scenes. The Congress and after that Mr. Argal will speak. Government at one time tried to appoint a special officer to provide protection to these SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (Ponnani): Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe would literally get only one minute from the people. But if you go deep into the problem, party point of view. you will find that they took certain measures which remained on paper only and they were MR. CHAIRMAN: I will try my level best not implemented in practice. to give you time, if at least all the Members take only five minutes each. MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, han. Mem- bers it seems that we are in a class room. SHRI A.K. ROY (Ohanbad): All of therT' You kintfly keep quiet. will speak from the party point of view but I would like to speak on the non-party point of SHRI BHOGENDRAJHA (MadhLJbani): view for a few minutes. Madam, please don't insult the class room. We are slightly better than that. MR. CHArRMAN: We wilt see whether non-partisan people can also be accommo- dated. SHRt NANI BHATTACHARYA: So, the previous Government has failed miserably [ Translation] to provide safeguard as regards the protection of scheduled caste and scheduled tribe SHRI K.D. SULTANPURI (Shimla) people, as regards preventing the atrocities Madam Chairperson, I support the Bill whict let loose by a section of upper class peopfe has been introduced by Shr; Ram Vila! in connivance with the bureaucrats and the Paswan regarding the Commission. It h~ police. not been mentioned in this Bill that what wil 131 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 132

[Sh. K.O. Sultanpuri] of efforts to uplift the harijans and got a quota reserved forthem in different institutions, but be the powers of this Commission? I know it to this date that quota has not been com~ lery well that a Commission had been con- pleted. In many institution, the reserved stituted for the Scheduled Castes earlier vacancies continue to remain vacant. You also. A Comm~sioner had also been posted are putting all the blame on our party. Those there. It became clear from the views of the who have defected from the Congress and hon. Members that that Commission did not joined the other side, are also saying that prove to be of any use. There is a Parliamen- nothing has been done to uplift the harijans. tary Committee on Scheduled Tribes also. They had made promises to the people and Its recommendations, have not been imple~ had been elected to the Parliament on the mented so far. I would like to say that when basis of those promises but now they are not this commission has been constituted, it keeping their promises. It has become nec- should be provided full rights. This Commis- essary to plug the loopholes plagueing the sion should be constituted in the states also. system today. However, I support the Bill If an officer of the Centre will not be sent brought forward by Shri Ram Vilas Paswan. there it cannot function successfully because he has to go in each district. I visited All the backlog of reserved vacancies in many places and seen that where atrocities the public undertakings, in courts and in and injustice have been committed on Har- other institutions should be cleared. Efforts ijans they have not been able to take and should also be made to remove the injustice, remained helpless. There same people wherever it has been meted out to them. pretends to be well wishers of Harijans and claim that they are trying for the upliftment of I would like to know whether this Gov- Harijans and tribals, but I know that these ernment is meant only for making speeches. people are committing atrocities on Har- The Minster give only fake assurances, but ijans. in fact, they have done nothing. The State Governments should be directed to remove 16.09 hrs. the injustice, wherever it has been done to these people. Once It is done, only then [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chait1 there will be some utility of this Commission, otherwise it will remain only on the papers. Who are the people agitating for reser- Besides this, the Commission should be vation? Who are helping them? As far as given sole authority. That is all what I had to 4arijan are concerned, they make bricks in submit. I hope that efforts will made to stand villages and people, who are preforming upto all those points I have raised here. Shila Pujan, are prohibiting them from enter- .ng that premises. The Harijans break stones, SHRI SANTOSH BHARTIYA construct houses and produce milk but (Farukkhabad): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, for others are enjoYing the benefits of their la- some time I had gone out of this House for bour. In this way have atrocities have always some urgent work. The han. Member Shri been committed on Harijans. Uttam Rathod has said during his speech that I should not have cast as persions on I would like to submit that if you want to Shri Ranga as he is a freedeom fighter and uplift the Harijans, quota should be reserve has lived a very long life. I would like to from them even in the Council of States. submit that I"have not cast any as persons They have tllelr reserved quota of seats in against Shri Ranga yesterday. What I meant the assemblies and in the Parliament but to s~ is that he stands for a generation and some quota of seats In Rajya Sabha should a system. That system has given us a coun- also be reserved lor them. try where the honour of Scheduled Castes and SchedukMt Tribes is not secure. It is Dr. Baba Saheb AmbHd~ar made a lot always a big personality who is selected to 133 Constitution JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 134

symbolise a thing. 50 I chose to make Shri of the Special Officer to investigate all mat~ Ranga the symbol of that system, which has ters relating to the safeguards provided for come down in this country during the last the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes forty years. Personally, I have great respect under this constitution and report to the for 5hri Ranga. He is the senior most Mem~ President upon the working of those safe- ber of this House. I am giving personal guards at such intervals as the President explanation. As a person he ;s respected may direct. and the President shall cause all everywhere, but the system, the atrocities such reports to be laid before each House of nnd the injustice he is supporting, may be Parliament. In this article references to the symbolised by a person no less than his Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes stature. For that matter he stands on a very shall be construed as including references10 high pedestal and to choose him to symbot~ such other backward classes as the Presi~ ise that system is to hold him in high esteem. dent may, on receipt of the report of a I didn't means to level any allegations against Commission appointed under clause( 1) of him. Only this much I would like to submit. article 340, by order specify." The Govern~ ment propose to constitute a high power SHRI CHHAVIRAM ARGAL (Morena): Commission by amending this article. It shall Mr. Deputy~Speaker, Sir, I fully support the consist on one Chair-persons. one Deputy~ 68th Constjtutiona~ Amendment Bill seeking Chairperson and three other Member ... to make a provision for the constitution of a high powered Commission for the welfare of MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: All these Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. things are known ...... My party also supports this Bill. This Bill has been supported by one and all and it is a very SHRI CHHAVIRAM ARGAL: I would courageous step. Earlier, the National Front like to submit that before this, there was an Government had passed a bill seeking to S.C., S.T. Commission which worked only pro\lide political reservation and that bill was as post office. There is a provision of reser~ also supported by us. vation for the Scheduled Castes and Sched~ uled Tribes. But they were not benefited It is something commendable that the even by the 5 year plans. During the first, National Front Government has unveiled a second, third, fourth. fifth and sixth five year portrait of Dr. Baba Saheb Ambedkar in the plans, an amount of Rs. 30.04 crores, Rs. Central Hall of the Parliament House and 79.41, Rs. 100.40 crores, Rs. 172.70 crores conferred on him the honour of 'Sharat Ratna' As. 296.19 crores and Rs. '337.21 crores posthumously.1 would like to congratulate respectively had been spent on the welfare the Government and the Hon. Prime Minis- of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. ter for that. But I would like to submit that That amount proved to be a drop in the regarding the political reservation, ther Na- ocean because a part of that amount went tional Front Government declared through into the pockets of corrupt officials and some the media that it has extended the provision part of its was surrendered. There are some of poJitic~1 reservation for another 10 years. provisions in the Indian Constitution which Article 335 of the Indian constitution con- seek to provide for the upliftment of those, tains a provision for reservation in the serv- who are economically, politically and so- ices, but there is no mention of a time limn. cially backward. lhe list of castes specijied The NatIonal Front Government has made a under article 341 should be reViewed and the very biq mistake and it should make it clear castes recognised as scheduled castes and before the entire country that m this regard scheduled tribes in respect of a parti<;ular there is no proviSion for time limit. Article 338 district should be recognised as such for the of the Indian Constitution provides that "that entire state. The recommendatIons of Suraj shall be a Special Officer tor the Scheduled Shan Committee should be implemented. Castes and Scheduled Tribes to be appointed by the President. It shall be the duty Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, through you. 135 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 136

[Sh. Chhaviram Argal] they are not deserving. I would like to submit that wherever there is a vacant post, it I would like to request the Government that should be filled by a Scheduled Caste candi- a 'Darldra Narayan Kosh' (Poor man's fund) date. You should pay attention towards clear- should be created with an initial capital of Rs. ing the backlog in the recruitment of Sched- 2000 crores for 'the upliftment of these uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to the classes, so that all the promises made under posts reserved for them. I would like to tell the India Constitution to bring all these back- the hon. Minister that the people belor .ging ward classes at per with the upper castes to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled within a period of 10 years, may be fulfilled. Tribes are ignored, even when one or two During the last 4 decades, the Congress vacancies arise and they deserve to get it Government has done, no doubt, some work according to the rooter. Similarly, promotion for their development. However, 1would like avenues are open for people who go on to submit to the han. Minister that the Gov- deputation, but the employees belonging to ernment wants to be given a period of only the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes one year to complete that work. But we are are denied even that benefit. I would like to ready to give it a period of 5 years. Shri Ram request the han. Minister to concentrate his Vilasji, when you were in the opposition, you energies on removing all these disparities. used to criticise the previous Government. This Government should not commit the Now when you are in the ruling party you mistake of not presenting the report of the should see to it that it does not happen that Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes the work is not completed even in 5 years, Commissioner before the Parliament as done left along one year. by the Congress party during 1988- 89 ...... (Interruptions) ... People belonging to Regarding the position in respect of the weaker sections, the Scheduled Castes reservation quota I would like to submit that and Scheduled Tribes and the depressed their reserved quota in any of the categories classes should be given equal opportunities i.e .. scheduled castes and scheduled tribes for development. As far as the laws are has not been completed to prove my point. I concerned, they are not fully implemented can give you the figures ... as a result of which these people do not derive any benefit from it. .. (Interruptions) ... 1 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shri Argal, a would like to reiterate that the Scheduled lot of discussion has taken place In this Castes and Scheduled Tribes Commis- regard. There is no need of insisting on all sioner's report of 1988-89 was not presented that what has been already said. in the House and the Congress Government did not take it up for discussion. The Con- SHRI CHHAVIRAM ARGAL: The rep- gress party has no concern forthis section of resentation of Scheduled Castes in class I, the society. Had the leader of the opposition Class II, Class III and Class IV, post in 4.95 Shri Rajiv Gandhi had any concern for this per cent, 8.4 per cent, 13.44 per cent and sed ion of the society, he would have been 19.46 per cent respectively. Also the repre- present here today. He has no concern for sentation of Scheduled Tribes in class I the people belonging to the Scheduled posts in 1.29 per cent, in class II posts 3.90 Castes and Scheduled Tribes and he does per cent, and in class III posts 5.38 per cent not want to fulfil his responsibilities. , would only. Nothing can be done for the welfare of like to telf the han. Prime Minister that even these SOCially and economically backward he too should have been here classes, until thetr quota reservation is ful- today ... ( Interruptions) filted. During these last 4 decades no attention has been paid towards reservation. In MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Youp~ase respect of the P.Sc. and U.P.S.C. posts of conclude. The first and the second Bills have short terms training, candidates of reserved been taken up for discussion together. If categories are rejected on the ground that there is any point, which you have not men- 137 Constitution JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 138 tioned earlier, do mention it. There is no use Special attention should be paid to- repeating the same points. That is why these wards the recruitment of people belonging to two Bills have been taken together. You the Scheduled Tribes in Small-Scale indus- please conclude within one minute. tries and other small units. Banks should also be directed to make available loans facilities to these people without delay. (Inter- SHR~ CHHAVIRAM ARGAL: I want to ruptions) say that posts reserved for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are not filled [English] up. The population of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes which was 23 per cent MR. DEPUlY SPEAKER: Whatever you of the total population earlier, now stands at say further will not go on record. 26 per cent. Posts reserved for these people even in the Parliament Secretariats and the [ Translations] Secretariats of the State Legislative Assem- blies and Council are not filled up. Similarly, SHRI ARVIND NETAM (Kanker): Mr. the representation of the Scheduled Castes Deputy Speaker, Sir. I support the Bill moved and Scheduled Tribes in Ambassadorial and by hon. Shri Ram Vilas Paswan. While intro- Guberanatorial posts IS not in proportion to ducing the Bill, he had said that powers their population. I would like to request to the would be given to the Commission, but I do leaders of all the political parties that they not believe that the this Bill would in any way should pay attention towards this matter. help the Commission to get more powers. Han. Shri Ram Dhan said right now that no However, if it gets and powers through this political party had nominated people belong- Bill, I support it from the core of my heart, I ing to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled congratulate Shri Paswan, as there cannot Tribes to the Rajya Sabha. I would like to tell be any doubts about his intentions. The him that the Bharatlya Janata Party is the problem is that it is useless to give any teeth, only party which has nominated two persons however strong to the Commission, unless belonging to the reserved category to the and until you bring about changes in our Rajya Sabha. They are Shri Sanghpriya system, which is controlled by the bureau- Gautam from Uttar Pradesh and Shri Paswan crats. The same sentiments were eChoed by from Bihar. Thus, what I want to say is that if Shri Ram Dhan also. While drawing your there is any party which is a true well-wisher attention to certain things, I would like to give of the Scheduled Castes and SCheduled you some suggestion. You are facing prob- Tribes, it is the Bharatiya Janata Party. I lems, because in the States you are either would like to tell the leaders of all the parties dependent on the State Governments or on that they should consider all these questions your field staff. What do you propose to do in earnest and keep it in mind that there are about it? Unless you strengthen this machin- certain elements in this country, which are ery, the Commission would not be able to bell-bent upon creating a communal atmos- complete its task. phere in the country. Organisations like Jamat-e-Islami and Jammu Kashmir Libera- • The second thing, I want to say is that tion Front (JKLF) receive funds from foreign the Government should consider setting up countries and with that fund they indulge in of a separAte tribunal to look after and solve conversions-This should be thoroughly the manifold problems faced by officers and investigated and a blanket ban should be other employees belonging to the Sched- imposed on their actiVIties. There should be uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. a proper auditing of their acco",nt also ... (lnt9"uptions) All of us should work Thirdly, t want 10 say that there should unitedly to protect the interests of the Sched- not be any potiticisation of the Commission. uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes ... (Inter- You should endeavor to keep it about petty ruptions) politics. so that in future too, the com mis- 139 Constitution (68th Amend.) Bill 140

[Sh. Arvind Netam] Choudhary Brahm Prakash. I was present at that meeting. In that letter, it was written that sion's work does not suffer, irrespective of the recommendations of the Mandai Com- the Government in power. mission would be thoroughly examined before its implementation. When our party I would like to see the establishment of President said that the National Front in its strong and powerful commission. Just en- manifesto had promised the immediate larging the composition of the commission imptementation of the Mandai Commission would not do. I would consider your efforts Report upon assumption of office and now it successful, only if it work!. properly. That's all was talking of examining the report, the I have to say in this regard. Prime Minister came to know about it and changed his letter. He wrote another letter in KUMARI MAYAWATI (Bijnor): Mr. which he said that the Government would Deputy Speaker, Sir, on my personal behalf implement the recommendations of the and on behalf of my party, I support the 68th Mandai Commission Report within two-three Constitution Amendment Bill, 1990. I would weeks. It is unpleasant to say that I am afraid also like to t~ank the hon. Minister for ac- that this bill may not meet the same fate as cepting the suggestion for deleting the prefix that of MandaI Commission report about 'Neo' attached before the term 'Buddhists' in which Prime Minister V.P. Singh made two the Scheduled Castes Order (Amendment) statement within one hour. I also do not BHI, 1990. agree with Sri Ram Dhanji's suggestion to keep this Bill outside the jurisdiction of the I would like to give some suggestions Welfare Ministry. I would like to remind his with regard to the 68th Constitution Amend- that every issue concerning human life which ment Bill. this is an excellent Bill and is in the is discussed in the House is a associated interest of the Scheduled Castes and the with some Ministry. Therefore, I feel that if Scheduled Tribes. but I would also like to would not be in the interest of Scheduled mention herethatsince independence, many Caste and Scheduled Tribe to keep it out- Acts were passed and many Amendment side the jurisdiction of Welfare Ministry. The made to safeguard the interests of the Sched- Commission should be given full powers and uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, but un- kept associated with Welfare Ministry so that less and until they are implemented, it would it may work for the Welfare of the poor and not benefit these people in any manner. Labourers.

I would like to qut)te and example before SHRI GIRDHARI LAL BHARGAVA the House. I would like to draw me attention (Jaipur): t support the bill introduced by the of the House towards the meeting organised Han. Minister and heartily congratulate Mr. in the premises of the Vithalbhai Pate) House Paswan for the inclusion of my suggestion in on 25th May, under the leadership of Ch- the bill in the larger interest of the nation. oudhary Brahm Prakash, regarding the implementation at the Mandai Commission. SHRI RAM LAL RAHI (Misrikh): Mr. Report. The 8ahujan Samaj Party was rep- Deputy Speaker, I had been waiting for a resented at that meetU1g by its President. longtime and I am grateful to you for having Chaudhary Brahm Prakash invited the Prime given me a chance to say something about Minister for that meeting, and the latter gave this Constitution Amendment Bill. Sir, I was his assurance to that effect. As this episode sitting here yesterday also and had listened IS bound to cast its shadows on the imple- to the speech delivered by Miss Bharatl mentation of the report, I would like to bring while Shri Paswan was introducing thQ bill. I . to the notice of thiS House that instead of noticed that there was a great resentment in attendtng the meeting personally. tht"l Prime her speech as she thought that Congress Minister conveyed his message through a had done nothmg for the Welfare of harijans letter which was read out at the meeting by during the previous 43 years after independ- 141 Constitution JVAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 142 encs. I pity her wisdom. I wonder whether Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, our Deputy she knows the history of previous Govern- Prime Minister is also sitting here. His statement and their attempts in this direction. ment has come in the Newspapers. But I

have no time to go in details. However I I I would like to say that a Commission would like to affirm that he is one who was was already formed by Congress Govern- against increasing reservation for another ment taking cagnlsance of the fact that seats 10 years. (lntsrruptions). reserved for Scheduled Castes and Tribes in Central Services are not being filled up. This Mr. Devilal who is the Deputy Prime bill seeks to give greater power to that very Minister has given a public statement that Commission. Some of the Han. Members there should be no more reservations for have raised the issued of Harijans. (Interruptions) Therefore, it is such non-implementation of the laws and provi- people who are the root cause of the hon- sion meant for the amelioration of the sup- implementation of the various laws and pressed, down-trodden and poor and slave schemes meant for the HariJans. These like people of scheduled castes and tribes people are full of Hatred and are behind the who are without rights in every sphere of failure of these laws and provisions. (Inter- humanlife like society, economy and educa- ruptions) tion and also the issue of non-completlon of almost all programmes meant forthem under Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to various rules. Who were the people respon- emphasize that even the Chairman of th,s sible tor Implementing these measures? I Commission Mr. Ram Dhan and Minister would like to know from the present Govern- himself seem to be dissatisfied with the ment whether there have not been anti- Commission as he is introducing newamend- reservation agitations in different parts of the ments every now and then. It seems that country during last six months of he axis- though he has been successful in getting tance of the Government. (Interruptions) them pressurised for the formation of a Whether this Government is not responsible powerful'Commission but still he is not sure for this. about the possibility of the formation of a commission with desirable power. It looks Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to that the people in Cabinet are not in perfect remind that all the previous Congress Gov- agreement with him. I doubt that under such ernments be it the Government of Pt. Jawahar circumstances the Commission is bound to Lal Nehru or Indiraji or Rajivji, had done a lot fail in its objective to ell,~inatc. thA poverty for the social reformation and economic among Harijans. the menance of untouch- prosperty of these people and had also ability in far-flung villages and abolishing brought legislations for giving reservations their backwardr.ess. and other facilities to them. It is true that some of the people Sitting here in Opposi- ~r. Deputy Speaker, not WIth standing tion, who live In Villages, are of feudal ten- my doubts, I support this Bill and wish that it dencies and support the feudal people. They should be approved. Let us see the perform- eat Into the vitals of Harijans and come in ance of these new persons also, provided way of legal help to them by influencing the they too are not ousted within 2-3 years like Government Machinery. They are respon- previous Janata Government and alliS is left sible for it. The previous Congress Govern- undone. ments of Centre as well as of the states had done their best for getting the quotas re- With these words, I support the Bill. served for these people fulfilled. Again this reservation was extended in promotions also [English] so that these people may reach upto higher posts. But these efforts were obstructed. SHAI PI'lARE LAL HANDOO Who were these who did so? (Anantnag): Sir, we have today on the anvil 143 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 144

[Sh. Piyare Lat Handoo] ing of the present article substituting the earlier one what is it that will enable us to an amendment to the Constitution. It is a ensure not only monitoring, but also imple- Constitution Amendment which is different mentation of the safeguards guaranteed to from the amendment of any other law. the Scheduled Castes because the complaint is not that there are no safeguards At the outset I would say that in increas- envisaged in the Constitution or the normal ing the number of amendments to the Con- laws of the land. the complaint is that imple- stitution, the present Government seems to mentation has not been successful. The be running with an unseemly haste. What is insinuation is that either they have not imple- being attempted to be done today is substi- mented them properly or they have not tuting a Constitutional authority by another monotored or enforced implementation. We authority. Earlier, Article 338 of the Constitu- must know how the present law will enable tion envisaged the appointment of a Special us to ensure that there is successful imple- Officer by the President with the special mentation and no continuance of the past purpose of ensuring evaluation of the work- failures. ing of the safeguards guaranteed to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. I would like the hon. Minister. young as Instead, we are now bringIng into existence he is, dynamic as he is, honest and eager as a National Commission for achievement of he is, the ensure that we have an instrumen- similar objectives. The change of nomencla- tality which vyill ensure real implementation ture without giving to this Commission an of the safeguards forthe depressed classes. independent existence and instruments for He should make a pre-study, pre-examina- monitoring and enforcing implementation of tion and evolve an authority on the basis of safeguards perhaps will not carry us far. We his earlier experience so that there are no have had support from every quarter from failures. every section of the House for this Bill. But every quarter has equally expressed the These are my submissions. apprehension that it may not be sufficient to help it to achieve the objectives. Unless you [ Translation] bring into existence a single authority, namely, a Special officer or a Commission SHRI HARIBHAU SHANKAR MAHALE as envisaged by Shri Ram Dhan, perhaps it (Malegaon): Mr. Deputy speaker, Sir, I recall will not be able to achieve the objectives. So, a day in 1975 when the then Deputy Speaker, I would appeal to the han. Minister who has Shri Gore Murari occupied this chair i" the love for this cause and who is basing the House. He had allotted me half an hour's present Bill on their declaration in the Elec- time to speak but despite the non-availability tion Mantfesto. to consider in depth and have of time today, you gave me an opportunity to a study made as to how the real objectives speak. I feel highly grateful to you for this. can be achieved. It is true that the appoint- Alongwith this, I recall one more thing that ment of such a Commission was envisaged the owl is blind to the daylight and a crow is in the Election Manifesto. But in principle, unable to see things at night but the Con- unless we evolve a process of implementa- gressmen can see things neither in the broad tion of the safeguards, this Constitutional day light nor at night. This is the only apathy. provision itself will not do anything. Article What is this Bill all about? There was no 338 of the Constitution envisaged the ap- debate, what so ever, in 1972 and 1975 even pointment of a Special Officer by the Presi- when the commission submitted its report. dent and a report by him to the President to No discussion took place and they have be placed on the Table of the House. That is done the wonderful thing in just one year. exactly what this Bill substituting the earlier The commission has been diluted now. They 3-clause Bill again envisages. I would like to have, therefore, brought in the Bill and this hear the han. Minister tett us from the word- too is full of lacunae. I would like to convey it 145 Constitution JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) 8UI 146 to the hon. Minister that this is the question Scheduled Tribes commission and to give it of the scheduled castes and the scheduled more powers, in view of this year being tribes. The scheduled tribes who live in celebrated as the year of Social Justice in jungles and can be found in rural suburban the memory of Bharat Ratna Baba Saheb areas as well but they are predominantly Bhimrao Ambedkar for such socially and found in jungles. The scheduled castes are economically oppressed people upon whose found in urban as well as in rural areas. shoulders the whole burden of the socio- Viewing from the educatiOnal point of view, economic infrastructure lies. It further pro- the literacy rate of the scheduled castes is vides that the Land Reform Acts should be more than that of the tribes who are more included in the 9th schedule of the Constitu- backward than the farmer. Therefore, more tion. The marginal tillers get lease deeds and attention should be paid to them. I tender an papers of ownership of land but they barely apology to Shri Sathe as a large police get the possession thereof. This ownership station area was given the status of a district of land is one of the dreams of these hard and I was a member thereof. There was a working people of the scheduled castes and large scale fraud there. The Central Minister scheduled tribes and that is gOing to be of Scheduled Tribes Social Welfare Depart- realised through this legislation. The issue of ment was deputed to conduct on enquiry the poor is not a party issue. That is not the there. The Bofors issue was in the offing at question of a particular party. I remember that time. He came to know that the defaul- well that the members of all the political ters were the followers of the Congress and panies were present here at the time of then he said O.K. Close the chapter; letthem installation of the portrait of Bharat Ratna, enjoy. Some of the Congressmen were my Saba Saheb Ambedkar and I would like to friends. They aid that it was truely in the urge and request you all to treat the Bills with context of Bofors. Only they were saying it. the same feelings and the same honour.lwill Therefore, I thank you once again and main- not take much time but will. surely, submit to tain that we are ready to support this Bill. the members sitting on the opposition Justice may be delayed in Heavens but it is benches that they should not make the poor never denied. I, therefore, urge upon the people victims of their grudges and griev- han. Ministertogive more emphasis to Social ances they might be having against the Welfare but it would have been better if this Government. You may punish us but our work is brought under the jurisdiction of the scheduled tribe brothers living ;n the villages Ministry of Home Affairs. I have been an today nourish certain expectations from this M.L.A. for a full decade. I have been associ- House. It is my humble submission to you ated with the Social Welfare activities and not to act against their interest and take a the Scheduled Tribes committees. The decision after keeping this in mind. committees other than the ST&SC committees were very well managed but little atten- SHRI VASANT SATHE (Wardha): Mr. tion was paid to the SC&ST Committee. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just now we listened to Therefore, I urge that it would be in better if a very sentimental speech of the hon. Prime this is brought under the Home Ministry Minister ...... (Interruptions) ...... Be patient rather than the Social Welfare Ministry and please. the Commission set upwith regard to this Act will make it more forceful in farmer of the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly be scheduled castes and the scheduled tribes patient. and that will be a very good thing. This IS my humble demand. ( Interruptions)

THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI VISH~ SHRI BHOGENDRAJHA (Madhubani): WANATH PRATAP SINGH): Hon. Sir, we Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, we should not have have brought this legislation in order to give the right to vitiate the atmosphere. One is statutory status to the Scheduled Caste unable to know what is being said. 147 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 148

[English] on in the House for the last so many days and he as well as the entire country are aware MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I agree with that on account of the corruption and Bofors you. issues he could get the office of the Prime Minister. His image has been built on ac- ( Interruptions) count of the Bofors issue and it was built on only one issue, we have no objection to that, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not it is proper, it is good ... (Interruptions) helping the House. Please keep quiet. Please help the House to run smoothly. SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: I want to say that they should not do injustice SHAI VASANT SATHE: Mr. Deputy to the poor just because of their anger against Speaker, Sir, I would like to make itveryclear the Government. at the outset that so far as the question of the protection of right of the weaker sections of SHRI VASANT SATHE: We well know our country IS concerned. I do not under- what kind of relations they have with the stand that anybody can claim that people like poor. The fact is that the name of the former Mahatma Gandhi. ,Jawaharlal Nehru and Prime Minister and the leader of our party Indira Gandhi, to whom our hon. Prime has been continuously subjected to charac- Minister himself. ... (lnterruptions) ...... ter assassination tor the last three years and considers his leaders and who hpve been his the pretext of Bofors issue. (Interruptions) ideals for his political thought. were, in any way. less concerned about supporting and SHRI MADAN LAl KHURANA (South upholding the cause of the weaker sections Delhi): Do not link Bofors with the poor. of our society. We do not, at any cost want to oppose the Bill that has been brought before SHRI VASANT SATHE: We are not the House now nor we are opposing it. We preventing you, we are simply expressing want to go it on record. (Interruptions) our views. (Interruptions) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it was widely proclaimed that Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we agree that as soon as they came to power and further in one of the dreams of the esteemed Baba all his speeches the Prime Minister said that Saheb Ambedkar has very recently come he would name the person within ten to true in the shape of the Amendment Order fifteen days and bring everything to light. Bill. brought in the House by Shri Paswan, ( Interruptions} about giving more fights to the neo-buddhlsts. So far as the question of conferring Not to talk of fifteen days, 160 days have more powers upon their Commission is since elapsed and despite this the names concerned, I would like to make it clear that have not been disclosed till date. The sec- nobody will be more pleased than us if, ond thing that I wish to say is this that all the under the leadershipof Shri Ramdhan, more secrets and documents are with the Swed- powers are conferred upon the Commission ish Government and the allegation was that and a statutory status IS given te It. (Interrup- we have failed in procuring them. (Interrup- tions) Similarly. we agree that the land re- tions) form laws are related to the farmers of this country and speclUlly the small farmers are [English] going to be benefited by the same. We also supoort the second bill moved by the Deputy Prime Minister and we want It to be In corpo- I need time. I have taken not even five rated in the Ninth Schedule and we wish to minutes. pass this also. We do not oppose that also. I would like to make a requftst to the Prime SHRI SAfFUDDIN CHOUDHURY Mintster regardJng the discussion that is going (Katwa): I am on a point of .order. 149 Constitution JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) 8111 150

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am allow· standing. But, at the same time, Mr. Vasant ing Mr. Choudhury to raise the point of order. Sathe, you have made the point very co- gently and very forcefully. I think the Mem· SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY: bers are trying to say "Let us discuss only What we have been debating and on the that which ;s pertinent to this thing." verge of voting is the Constitution Amend- ment Bill on the Scheduled Castes Commis- SHRI A.K. ROY: I am on a point of sion. Now, hawaII those other things, Bofors order. and corruption, are coming, I just want to know. It is very bad dilatory tactics. I warn the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: O.K. Shri Congress-I Party that it will expose their true A.K. Roy. I am hearing your point of order. colours before the country. SHRI A.K. ROY: My point of order is on SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA (Bankura): the basic condition. I want to have your ruling Already exposed. on whether any han. Member because he sits on the front bench has got his inherent SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA: The proce- right to stand up and say anything out of dure has been violated. I am on a point of context. - order. 17.00 hrs. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What procedure has been violated? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Roy, it you want a ruling, please take your seat. I am [ Translation] giving a ruling. I did not want to overrule you. In the interest of the business in the House, SHRI BHOGENDRAJHA (Madhubani): we can conduct the business in a fashion Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. my submission is that Members do agree. If you say that let us that they too have no objection in passing the talk which is relevant to the subject, I think, Constitution Amendment Bill so we may you are not off to the mark. The Member is pass It and I will request the Prime Minister, trying to say something. Let us understand it who IS present here that he may make a brief and the House can decide lateron. (Interrup- statement here on Bofors ...... (Interruptions) tions)

SHRI VASANT SATHE: Mr. Prime [ Translation] Minister, Sir. it is your great achievement that you have been able to get that report. My SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: J have submission is that the report may be placed a point of order. You had fixed 2.30 PM for its on the table of the Huuse. Today we are voting. Act present the discussion is in re- being informed .... (Interruptions) spect of harijans and as such how has the question of brokerage in Bofors deal cropped SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: up here?" someone has taken brokerage in Separate discussions may be held on this as the Bofors deal how these poor people figure well as that topic .... (Interruptions) in it? (Interruptions)

[English] [English]

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think, Mr. (Bolpur): This is totally irrelevant so far as Khurana will insist on a decision from the the subject which we are discussing is con· Chair. My decision is, your point of order is cerned. (Interruptions) not in order. (Interruptions) If you do not MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, I think speak, I will be passed early. Members are trying to agree and trying to help each other. That is what I am under· ( Interruptions) 151 Constitution MAY 29.1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 152

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have given 17.05 hr•• a hint to him. You are not helping in curtailing the time taken for discussion. Please try to At this stage, Shri Vasant Sathe and some understand. other hon. Members left the House

( Intsrruptions) SHRI R. MUTHIAH (Periyakulam): Sir, we, the members of the AIADMK Party, are [ Translation] not in any way against the passing of this Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes Bill. But, SHRI VASANT SATHE: I simply want in protest against the attitude of the Govern- to say that our Government and Parliament ment in denying to place on the Table of the cannot be a slave or be guided by some House certain documents relating to Bofors other country. The plea taken by the Govern- we are also walking out. ment is that they do not have the permission of Swedish Government and as such it cannot 17.05 1/2 hrs. be presented. This is not acceptable to us. There goes a saying in English ...... (Inter- At this stage, Shri R. Muthiah and some ruptions) other hon. Members left the House

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no [Translation] need to quote any saying. SHRI RATILAL KALIDAS VERMA SHRI VASANT SATHE: Those who are (Dhandhuka): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they born due to Bofors if they say that they will are not interested in the welfare of SC/ST not place the papers, is not acc~ptable to us. communities and they are their enemies. Still, if the Prime Minister commits that he is ( Interruptions) willing to hand over the papers t the Speaker than we will agree. But if he is not willing to [Eng/ish] do even this much then it will not be acceptable to us. (Interruptions) SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (Bolpur): Sir, I want to speak. SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: ?ir, Hon. Satheji has raised the issue relating Sir, we cannot but condemn most to the laying of papers pertaining to Bofors. strongly, the despicable attitude taken up by I think that this issue can be discussed the Congress Party as the Opposition in this separately. You allot time, the Government House. is prepared for a debate on it. The entire House...... (Interruptions) But the poor Sir, when the entire House has sup- people belonging to SC/ST have no role to ported this measure, now with a view to play in the Bofors issue, by discussing it here white wash the tarnished image of their why should they be punished. Let us first of leader, they are prepared to sacrifice the all serve them and thereafter we will jointly interests of the weakest class in this coun- talk about Bofors. try-the Scheduled Castes and the Sched- uled Tribes, for whom they had been shed- ding copious tears during the discussion on [English) this Bill. And knowing the present composition of the House and the necessity of their participating in the voting for the purpose of SHRI VASANT SATHE: I am sorry. If passing this Amendment Bill, knowingly they this is the attitude of the Government, we are have let down the people of this country. As walking out. I apprehended earlier, they are holding the 1S3 Constitution JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 154 country to ransom. Now my apprehension intended for the upliftment of our most op- has proved to be true. We must all unitedly pressed clas.... It is a pity. I am sure, al\ condemn most strongly the most despicable, those who voted for the Congress in the las1 anti-people, unpatriotic attitude on the part 91ect.ons, will not vote on this count. Let of the Congress (I) Opposition in this coun- them understand this. Since they did no' try. (Interruptions) agree even to the appeal, they will have to pay a much bigger price than they have paid [ Translation] already.

PROF. VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA SHRI CHITTA BASU (Barasat): The (Delhi Sadar): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the entire country, particularly this 70 per cent of manner in which congress party has be- our great country, was looking at this Parlia- haved today, the entire House deplores it. If ment today because tha Bill for land reforms we look at the list of the people who have and also the Bill for giving statutory recogni- jointed Congress Party in the walk out then tion to the Commission for the Scheduled we come to know that all members of Con- Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, are noth- gress Party, Muslim league and National ing but a great step forward to remove the Conference have staged a walk out. What poverty of our country on the one hand and sort of links the Con9ress Party is having, to bring about socia-economic transforma- who are the people involved, what IS their tion of the country on the other. concept of secularism can be clearly seen from this episode. Despite the Prime Minis- It is shameful. it is reprehensible. it is ters' appeal with folded hands that they condemnable that those, who have been should support the bill that has been intro- voted by the people, have not that amount o' duced relating to the poor, SCs' and STs' moral courage to discharge their moral reo and that they should not bring in other issues sponsibility to their electorate. It is the large, in it, they did not bother. The sort of bldCk- part of the electorate who wants this. (Inter· mailing and terrorising atmosphere that they ruptions) ... They have taken a wrong atti- have tried to create, the people of this coun- tude, a condemnable attitude and they want try will never forgive them. This bill could to hold the entire country to ransom and I have been passed with the help of their votes appeal to the people outside. It is not only but they tried to create such a position. these 193 Members In this House who can Unfortunately people of this country have hold the country to ransom but their people given tham so much strength. But if their outside will move and they will see that this attitude did not change then in times to come kind of Bill is passed as soon as possible. they will not command so much power. I Therefore, I have also a very reprehensible want to say that the House should unani- expression to make. (Interruptions) It is a mously condemn this behaviour. (/nt9"up- spectacle which we have been witnessing tions) that some Members have been wilfully filibustering. Sir, the rule does not provide [English] filibustering by any Member. We have given enough scope for them to speak but in order SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE to better the cause of the people of our (Panskura): Sir, I fgel extremely sorry be- country, they have undertaken this shameful caus. I was one of those who appealed to act for which the entire country and this the Congress party, instead of condemning House should condemn them without any them, because whatever Papers about reservation. Bofors thay are wanting now, they had ample opportunity to do it. Without doing that. after ( Trans/ation] losing the power and also their credibility now they, in the name of Bofors papers, want KUMAR1 MAYAWATI (Bijnor): Mr. to put an obstacle to this very Bill which is Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to submit 1~~ Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 156

[Kumari Mayawati ] Commission Report also. I shall support Mandai Commission Report as and when it that though I do not support the National Comes before the Cabinet and shall also try Front Government. yet so far as the welfare to see that Jats are included in the report. of the poor and the deprived people is con- ( Ints"uptions) cerned. I am distressed to note the attitude of the Congress Party. On 25th Maya meeting KUMARI MAYAWATI: Government of the leaders of all the political parties. should implement the Mandai Commission where I was also present, was convened to Report. And you should tell all these things to extend the sittings of the House by 4 days. In the Prime Minister. There is no use of saying the said meeting a proposal was mooted that the same in the House. (Interruptions) this Bill would be introduced in the House during this extended period. At the instance [English] of Shri Ram Vilas Paswan, Shri Dinesh Singh, ..>n behalf of the Congress Party, had said THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (PROF. 4hat his party would extend it support to all MADHU DANDAVATE): Mr. Deputy the three Bills relating to welfare of Sched- Speaker, if I rise to make a submission, I do uled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes and it not with anger but with pain. I wish to draw Land Reforms and would not make its stand the attention of this House that we are going clear with regard to other Bills. But the party to celebrate the centenary of late Dr. B.R. did not stand by their words. Ambedkar this year, the greatest spokes- man of the weaker sections in this country. I would like to make yet another submis- Unfortunately, on such an occasion that the sion. Of course neither I do not support or Congress Members should choose to divide ')ppose any party. I do not notice any differ- this House on an issue which is extraneous ance between Shri Devi La's attitude and to the question of Scheduled Castes and that of the Congress Party. (Interruptions) Scheduled Tribes is most disgusting and My point is worth noting. Just as the Con- most condemnable. But whatever be their gress Party had said ... (Interruptions) Please attitude, our attitude is more liberal because listen. The Congress Party had said that it the entire country and the weaker sections would extend its support to the Bills provided are not Interested in the type of internal battle the Government laid on the table the papers we are carrying out in this House. The weaker relating to Bofors. Similarly the Deputy Prime sections will be interested in seeing that their Minister. Shn Devi Lal who was invited by interest are defended and protected. There- Choudhary Brahma Prakash on 24th May to fore, we shall totally condemn their attitude. discuss the Mandai Commission Report put But at the same time, we shall act in such a a condition before Shri Brahma Prakash that mannerthat we will not allow this measure to he would help implement the Mandai Com- be defeated inspite of their manipuiative mission Report provided the Jats were also pol~ics. brought within the ambit of the Mandai Commission Report. As such, I do not see SHAI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: any difference between the Congress Party Sir, it is a matter of great anguish that today and Shri Devi Lal. the poor have been kept as political hostage for achieving certain goals and selfish mo- THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND tives. The House and the Members have MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (SHRI DeVI rightly condemned the action of the Con- LAl): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a base- gress (I) and other Members walking out. I less charge against me. I am not against do not want. as all the other Members also Mandai Com mission Report, rather I support wish, to drag on the issue. I will plead with it. What I say is that there is no difference you that we take up the other Bitl also today between the Jats and other agriculturists. for discussion and both the Bills could be put So, please extent the benefits of the Mandai for the vota of the House tomorrow simulta.. 157 Constitution JYAISTHA 8, 1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 158 neously. I want to share certain information demand in the Parliament of India that so that your judgement is not vitiated. On the full report should be placed before 26th May, 1990 itself, the Government took Parliament. " up with the Swedish Government that we wanted to put all the papers on the Table of We expressed the sentiments of the Mem- the House. This is what we have said. This is bers. our telex: "Keeping all the above considerations "The Ministry of External Affairs, Gov- in mind, the Government of India pro- ernment of India, present its compli- pose to place the entire text of the ments tothe Swedish Embassy in New Swedish National Audit Bureau report Delhi and has the honourto refertothe dated 1st June, 1987 before Parlia- Note No. 49 dated 23rd May, 1990 ment. from the Swedish Embassy, convey- ing the decision to provide to the The Ministry of External Affairs, Gov- Government of India the full text of the ernment of India, avails itself of this report by the Swedish Nationa! Audit opportunity to renew to the Swedish Bureau dated 1 st June 1987 on the Embassy in New Delhi the assurances Bofors affair. This positive decision of of its highest consideration." the Swedish Government is deeply appr eciated by the Government of This is the reply that we got from Swe- India. den that very day, 26th May:

The Ministry of External Affairs has the liThe Swedish Government takes ( honour to draw the attention of the serious view of the statement by thf Swedish Embassy to the Note Verbale Government of India that it proposes t( dated 21 st April, 1987, from the Em- place the full text of the classifie, bassy ot India, Stockholm, to the Swedish National Audit Board repol Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, into the Bofors affairs before the Indial requesting for investigation into the Parliament. As the Swedish Ambassa- position in regard to the middle-men in dor made clear when he transmitted connection with the negotiation and the report to the Government of India implementation of the Bofors contract on 23 May, 1990, the portions of the and indicating that the Government of report which were not made public in India would wish to use this informa- 1987 by the Swedish Government tion in the Indian Parliament. Further remain secret under the Swedish laws more, vide Aide Memoire dated 21 st of secrecy and may not now be made August 1987, the Swedish authorities public. The reason for the secrecy had been requested to give the com- classification is that the report contains plete report of the Swedish National sensitive economic information col· Audit Bureau, including the portions lected by the Bank of Sweden, the that had not till the been made avail- official release of which will harm im- able to the Government of India." portant Swedish foreign trade interests. "The Government of India are con- vinced that the entire text of the report If in spite of this the Government 01 of the Swedish National Audit Bureau India goes ahead and publicises the should be placed before the Parlia- secret portions of the Swedish Na· ment of India." tional Audit Board report, the Swedist Government will have to regard this as We have made this point. Further: a serious breach of trust. This wi!: undoubtedly affect the ability of thf "There has also been widespread Swedish Government to transm it othe 159 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 160

[Sh. Vishwanath Pratap Singh] party would nqt pose any obstacle in passing the Bills relating to welfare of Scheduled classified or sensitive documents to Castes and Scheduled Tribes and the Bill the Government of India, as requested relating to inclusion of Land Reform in the in the IndJan note and Letters Rogatory Nineth Schedule of the Constitution and that of 2 April, 1990." after both the Bills are passed they would hold discussion with the Government in Now, Sir, the Government did make the regard to other matters. But I am distressed funest effort to bring to Parliament the pa- to say that due to indifferent attitude of the pers, to which this is the reply. The point opposition these important Constitutional arises that now we have asked further ques- (Amendment) Bills on which crores of people tions in our investigation. It is a clear indica- across the country are_Pinning that hopes, tion that if we violate it, that information will have been stalled. The hon. Prime Minister not flow and this IS precisely what the rightly said in this connection that we do not Members opposite want. This is the pres- want to play politics in such matters. Nor do sure to stop the CBI inquiry, to stop, to dry up we want to make it a prestige issue for the the sources of information and that in our Government. On the contrary we want the investigation, the Swedish Government does welfare of crores of people in the country. not cooperate with us and our information The Bill will now be taken up tomorrow. dries up. That is the whole purpose of it and for this the poor people are being made to As per your orders, I am required to put pay. If they were so sincere, they could have forth the laws of the Government in response placed it when they were in power, and today to in points raised by han. Members Mr. the precise reason is to dry up our sources of Deputy Speaker, Sir, a large numbers of nformation and for th is crores of poor people hon. Members of those opposition are not are paying today tor what has happened. present now who made 8 charge against us that in our capacity as the Prime Minister or MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think, the as Ministers, we only speak in or one side the hon. Minister has not yet replied. I do not House, but actuaUy do not translate that into know whether he would be interested in action. In this connection, through you, I making the reply, but before he starts, his would like to tell the august House that one reply, a suggestion has come that your Bill of the 9 commitment's we made to the people, as well as the next Bill may be discussod and we have already fulfilled 7 commitment's. Vl{e can take up voting on these two Bills at Firstly. our commitment was that we would '.me and the same time. maybe today or extend the reservation for Scheduled Castes ,omorrow. Maybe we do tt tomorrow be- and Scheduled Tribes by another 10 years . .ause you have the time to sort it out and That is already done. Secondly, we promul- urive at some procedure. gated Prevention of Atrocities Act. A notification to this effect has been issued on 30 First of aU, I would allow the hon. Minis- January. Thirdly, a Bill relating to extending ter to make his reply and then we would take the reservation facUities to neo-Buddhists up the second Bill. has since been passed by both the Houses of Parliament. It has been given a legal [ Translation] status. Now the neo-Buddhists will start getting the same beneflts as are being en- THE MINISTER OF LABOUR AND joyed by the Scheduled Castes and Sched- WELFARE (SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN): uled Tribes. Or. B.A. Ambedkar was not Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, Shri Dlnesh Singh conferred the Bharat Ratna award for 43 and Shri Vasant Sathe represented the years. Our Government conferred the Bharat Congress Party in the All Party meeting. Ratna award on Dr. Ambedkar. The whole of During the course of the meeting both these this year will be observed as the year of leaders had given an assurance that. Their social justice. At the same time socio~eco- 161 Constitution JYAISTHA 8.1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 162 nomic programmes meant for the Sched- come up after a gap of 12 tong years and is uled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes will still pending. tn this connection I would like to be completed. Simil'arly, backlog of reserved state that so far as this Bill is concerned, vacancies in various categories will also be none of the h~n. Members had any opposi- filled up this year. It is the firm commitment of tion to it. None of the han. Members pointed the above Dr. Ambedkar's portrait has since out any deficiency in this Bill. Still it Is pend- been displayed in the Central Hall of the Ing. We received several suggestions from Parliament. We have since completed these various quarters. One of these suggestions 5 items of work any 2 remains to be done. was that the Commission should be made These two important items should have been more powerful. We accepted those sugges- passed in the House today. One of these two tions and made suitable amendments in the Bills relates to conferring statutory status to Bill. I am say that it will a most important the Commission for Scheduled Castes and commission. It has been given enormous Scheduled Tribes and the other relates to powers with the help of which it will be able inclusion of land Reforms in the Nineth to check the tendency depriving crores of Schedule of the Constitution. Had all the people of their legitimate right's which they hon. Members of opposition supported these have been denied for centuries and make Bills, both the Bills couJd have been passed enquiries of such cases. It will not only con- by the House. duct hearing of cases of defaulting officials but also examine them. I hope that they will be passed by tomorrow or the day after. It will prove to be of a References have also been made to major help to the poor people and to the Count of Inquiry. Though there is no such Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes mention in the BHI, the Commission will enjoy when there Bills became Bills. They will be the same powers as are being enjoyed by a beneficial to the teaming millions of this Count of Inquiry. As regards remaining country. We have completed the jobs I powers, it has been clear by spelt out in the mentioned just now. A large number of hon. Bill that the President of India shall have the Members have demanded that provisions of powers to make further laws and rules to reservation should be implemented strictly. provide for more powers if necessary. In response to their demand 1101d them that not only we will implement the provisions Several of the han. Members have made strictly, but also we are bringing forward a many other points. While replying to the legislation for this purpose. With the passing debate in regard to neo-Buddhists I have of this legislation all the backlogs of reserved already covered most of these points. Now I vacancies meant for Scheduled Castes and would like to reiterate that if both of these Scheduled Tribes will be fifled up and the Bills are passed, we will be fulfilling our provisions of reserva1ionwill be implemented commitments hundred per cent as far as the strictly. question of welfare of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes is concerned. It does So far as carrying night soil on head is not mean that we have reached our destina- concerned, I would like to repeat what it had tion. We will proceed ahead. Of course, I am said yesterday that we will remove this prac- not going to make acommitment here. There tice through a time-bound programme in a is no magic hand w::h 'JS with the help of phased manner. which we will be able to fill all the past backlogs within six months' period. But one Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,l would not like thing I shall say definitely that today's boy- to take much time of the House. A Bill to cott staged by the opposition is indicative of confer statutory status to the Commission the factthattheirtactics of keeping people as for Schedufed Castes and Scheduled Tribes bonded labourers and enjoying at their cost has been brought forward now. Unfortu- would no longer work. Now they are stunned nately, it could not be passed tn 1978. It has out of their wits. Today, the oppressed class, 163 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (68th Amend.) Bill 164

[Sh. Ram Vilas Paswan) will certainly achieve its objective. We seek your cooperation and support to achieve our the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, objectives. As per the promise made by the the minorities and the labour class have Government, a Central Committee has al- alienated themselves from the Congress. ready been set up underthe chairmanshipof The little respect they had is no more there the Prime Ministerto celebrate Dr. Ambedkar now. They used to talk of Mahatma Gandhi birth centenary. The Government will chalk and their ideologies. With this boycott a" out programmes for one year in the next their claims have proved hollow. It has been meeting of the Committee. Many socio- proved that. This party has succumbed to economic programmes will be launched to the pressures of reactionary forces. It only bring social revolution. The Government will sees votes and billionaires like the Tatas and undertake new programmes and ensure as Sirlas. The hon. Prime Minister has rightly to whether the poor people who have been said in connection with kickbacks In Bofors suppressed since long, have been brought gun deal that it is not the Scheduled Castes at par or not with other sections of the society and Scheduled Tnbes and the poor people in matter of development. The Government who got their dividends from the Bofors wants not only to ensure their progress but kickbacks, but they are paying for it. But a also to bring them into the mainstream of the time will also come when this case will also country . be decided. We also come from the grass- root level. We will go to the nook and corners With great hope and expectation, the of the country. Through you, Sir, I would like suggestions have been made by the hon. to tell the House that people throughout the Members. With reference to their sugges- length and breadth of the country remain tions, as I said earlier and again I would like anxIous from early morning till the evening to to assure them that the suggestions made by know the outcome of today's proceedings of them will be forwarded to the officers of the the House. They are trying to blackmail the Ministry for conSideration and action will be Government. They would have taken the taken by the Ministry accordingly. After six same stand In the case of neo-Buddhist had months, we will hold a meeting again and they come to know that the Bill would not be definitely all the problems will be solved. passed without their support. They would With these words, I thank all the hon. Mem- stall all those proposals which could be held bers of the House who took part in the up without their cooperation. discussion and lent their support to the Bill.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to AN HON. MEMBER: You have stated in tell the hon. Members that no purpose could your speech that money has been misutil- be solved by merely enacting laws and set- ised and the amount has not been spent ting upCommisslons. We have to Implement properly. Will you lay a statement In the them in lener and spirit with a view to up House in this regard? lifting the poor sections of the society. We have come to powor, but it IS not a bed of roses for us It IS Just like an instruments for SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Yes, I us. I would like to assure the august House made a mention of it and I would like to say that. We will use thiS instrument for the uplift again that not only sufficient amount will be of crores of poor people In the country. provided for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, but its proper utilization I challenge the people of the Congress will also be ensured. Orders have been Party that if they have courage they should issued in this regard. Enquiry has been give suggestions In respect of work which ordered. Officers found to be guilty will be has not been done by them. The Govern- punished. No body will be allowed to play ment will do it. That is why I have stated that With th~ Interests of the people belonging to the Government is determined to do " and weaker section. 165 Constitution JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) (68th Amend.) Bill 166

SHAI KHEMCHANBHAI SOMABHAI tigate a matter and send its report to the CHAVDA (Patan): Baudhs are not treated President. That report used to come before as untouchable in Gujarat.... (/nt9ffup- the Parliament and we used to debate on tions) ... that. But he had got no direct authority to Implement something or redress something. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Under His role was advisory reporting. Now, in- Article 341 (A) of the Constitution, the Presi- stead of that Special Officer, we are having dent is empowered to specify the castes a Commission of five officers. They may deemed to be Scheduled Castes and Sched- Investigate it more thoroughly and submit a uled Tribes. In orderto include or exclude the mar. comprehensive report. But how can castes from the list of S.C.lS.T., a Bill is they directly help the poor Hari,jans who will required to be brought before the Parlia- be under oppression and Qxploitation? I want ment. As I have already stated that the some clarification on their role. How would Government is preparing a comprehensive the role of this Commission be qualitatively Biflforthis purpose. After in production of the different from that of the Special Officer? Bill will in the Parliament, all the Members wi" be aJ lowed to offer their suggestions. The [ Translation] ultimate decision will be taken by the Parlia- ment. SHAI HAMENDRA SINGH BANEAA (Bhilwara): Mr. Speaker, Sir, will the han. SHRI CHAND RAM (Hardoi): Mr. Minister congratulate the Government of Speaker, Sir, some of the members in their Rajasthan for unearthing a case of misap- speeches called the Harijans as "Bschare propriation of money amounting to Rs. 140 Harijan" and 'Bechare Garib'. This is an lakh by the persons including some I.A.S. insult to them as they are not being provided Officers? Some arrests have also been made any charity. The country has an obligation to in the case. do so under the Poona Pact because they have been subjected to atrocities from the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: This is not a centuries. It is the duty of the Government to clarification. bring them into main stream. As the Hon. Prime Minister just now stated that they are SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: As sug- the toilers of the country and they have right gested by Shri A.K. Roy, the Commission for to equality. Therefore, mere setting up a Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes is Commission for them will not serve the pur- being vested with power under Article 338 of pose. The Government will have to allocate the Constitution. The Commission is also sufficient amount of money in the budget for being vested with power under the Commis- them .a .Iso land should be allotted to them. sion of Enquiry Act. H han. Members have With the•• words, I conclude. any concrete suggestion, they should move amendments on the clauses of the Bill. I [English] think the Government has given power to the Commission to the extent permissible under SHRI A.K. ROY: I thank you for depriv- the Rules. If the han. Members still think that ing me my right to speak earlier. Now I thank more powers should be given to the Com- you second time for allowing me to speak. mission, their suggestions are invited. We will consider them. Thera is provision for it in MR. DEPUTY.. SPEAKER: You don't the Bill. The President is empowered to have to thank me nor have you to object for review the situation from time to time. The the time given or not given to you. Commission has been given powers to investigate into the matter and summon the SHRI A.K. ROY: The Special Officer officials. The Chairman of the Commission under Article 338 of the Constitution had to will be consulted in preparation of schemes some extent a reporting role. He could inves- by the Central and the State Governments. 167 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (66th Amend.) 8ill 168

ISh. Ram Vitas Paswan] tunat.ly, court struck many land reform laws on ground of violation of fundamental rights Thus we have teft no scope or loopholes. granted to the citizens under the constitu- This is my assurance to the House. tion. This Bill has been brought with an intention to nullify the courts' ord&rs. A provision was made under Article 31 A of the constitution that no law can be declared void 17.31 hr•• simply on the ground that adequate com- pensation has not been paid. CONSTITUTION (SIXTY-SIXTH AMEND- MENT) BILL Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. in order to save the people from exploitation of the [English] vested interests. our constitution was amended a number of times. 25th and 42nd THE MINISJER OF STATE IN THE constitutional amendments were made for DEPARTMENT OF RURAL DEVELOP- this purpose. But the most Important amend- MENT IN THE MINISTRY OF AGRICUL- ment was 31 Band 31 C in the 9th Scheduled. TURE (SHRI UPENDRA NATH VERMA): Underthis amendment. courts were debarred On behalf of Shri Devi Lal. I beg to move: to nullify any progressive laws on technical grounds. IIThat the Bill further to amend the Constitution of India. be taken into Sir. it is most unfortunate that our farm- consideration. " ers and tillers have not got any benefit from the laws. A number of land reforms laws to [ Translation] be included in the 9th scheduled have either been declared null and void by the High Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir. land reform Courts and the Supreme Court or pending has been a matter of discussion since inde- decision thereon. This amending bill has pendence. The billts being moved for con- been brought for purpose of including all sideration ofthe han. Members of the House. those land reforms laws in the 9th Scheduled of the Constitution s~ as to provide protec w [English] tion under Article 31 B of the constitution and Article 39 (b) of the Directive Principle of the MR. DEPUTY -SPEAKER: Motion constitution which provides that the owner- moved: ship and control of the material resources of the community are so distributed as best to "That the Bill further to amend the subservethe common good. Sir. this amend- Constitution of India, be taken into ment in the 9th scheduled is a welcome step. consideration. " Therefore, I would like to say that while dealing with many cases including that of [ Translation] Vamanrao, Keshavbharati, Shim Singh etc., the Supreme Court has said every now and SHRI GUMAN MAllODHA (Pali): Mr. then that whenever laws are enacted for the Deputy Speaker. Sir, this constitution prosperity and well-being of the poor, to (Amendment) Bill will be written in the golden accelerate the developmental process and letters in the history of land reforms. Agricul- to usher in social justice. the courts should ture is the mainstay of the people our coun- see to it that they are declared constitution- try. Unfortunately. farmers have been ex- ally valid, as far as possible. Mr. Deputy- ploited from the very beginning. When of our Speaker, Sir, an unfortunate situation has constitution came into being, many land developed in the country. although several reform laws wElre m ada to abolish Zamindari judgements, including landmark ones like and Jagirdari syslems in the country. Unfor- the one in Keshavananda Bharati case were 169 Constitution JYAISTHA e, 1912 (SAKA) (66th Amend.) SRI 170 passed by the courts, in those judgements, bhare, bekaar bhale hi yon jaati, Rote the learned judges had observed that ke khaatir rig rig kar, uske bachche Constitutional validity would not be granted hain mar jaat •." to any law, how so ever important it is, if it is found to be violative of the basic features of Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, this pain and the Constitution. There has been a lot pf agony, this anguish, this pathetic and touch- debate here on the basic features. Justice ing story is that of the Indian farmer. While Krishna (yer and other lega' luminaries have welcoming the proposal to make an amend- even gone to the extent of saying that Ke- ment in the ninth schedule of the Constitu- shavananda Sharati case is like a ghost tion, I would Ibto submit that just making an which haunts the Supreme Court even today amendment would not serve any purpose. It in the form of petitions challenging the valid- is also essential to exam ine the results of the ity of that judgement, yet, I am not demand- earlier amendments. The land Ceiling Law ing any review of the judgement here. How- was passed in this country to provide land to ever. I would certainly like to say one thing the landless people but who were the actual here that now the time has come for the beneficiaries of that surplus land? Here, I thinkers, intellectuals and the elected repre- would like to ten you a story from Rajasthan sentative of the people, who believe in some but unfortunately those people for whom I orthe other political philosophy to stop think- wanted to tell it have left the House: How- ing on the lines that prevailed 40-45 years ever, considering the fact that farmers and back and which was in tune with the needs the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and necessities of that time. Although. forty have always been exploited and used as a years have passed since we attained inde- vote back ever since independence, it;s no pendence, yet we have not been able to wonder that today those exploiters do not alleviate poverty from the soil of this country. have the courage to come to the House and Even today. there are millions of landless support this Amendment Bill. Now, coming people in this country. A poet, Shri Mahipal to the story, I would say that there was a Bhandari has written a beautiful poem about Minister from Rajasthan, who after the pas- the farmers. In that poem, he says that the sage of the Land Ceiling Act, posed as a farmer tills the soil, sows the seeds, puts in landless person and in order to circumvent his sweat and blood, bears the brunt of the the provisions of the Act, he got his entire weather and thus dedicates his whole life to land transferred in the names of his cattle produce crops, yet when he goes to the and domestic animals, as the owners of his market to sell his produce, he does not get land. In this manner, he continued to occupy his due return from it. This results in the his land as a result of which no landless starvation and the resultant death of his own person could get even an inch of his Jand. and his family members. The poem reads as Even today, the condition of the landless follows: people continues to be the same. Mr. Dep- uty~Speaker, Sir, I was the Chairman of the ''Oonchi dhoti, adhkhule paon, Kandhe committee on Patitions of the Rajasthan par gaj bhar tukda Sar par pagdi. kar Legislative Assembly and in that capacity. mein lakdi. tan ka kapdachithda ch~hda once I visited Kota. The 'Sahariyas' live in Khane ko muththi bhar dane. thukrata Kota and I myself observed during my visit maal khaz anon ko, Uski maati me that although the land records showed tha hans kar kef hansata jag ke diwanon 'Sahariyas' as the owners of the land, but ko, Khai khadd nal nalon ko, Sookhe actually they ware not in possession of that talon ko seench-seench, Aage jaata, land. Their land was occupied by some big peechche aata. Dheete baiton ko landklrds of the Punjab. When in my capac- kheench kheench, Jo jag ko ann pra- ity as the Chairman of the Committe. on dan kare, jag usko hai thukrata. Uski Petitions. I asked a person who did not have haddi ko nonch-nonch. jag Vaibhav adequate clothes and food to keep hie bIIbr bhawan banata, Jag ki joothan ka thaJi and soul together, about the position of 1M 171 Constitution MAY 29,1990 (66th Amend.) Bill 172

[Sh. Guman Mal Lodha] tions. Procrastination has always been the haUmark of the working style of the Public land allotted to him. He replied that the land Prosecutors as a result of which stay orders was, no doubt, written in his name in the continue to remain in force upto ten, twenty record but he was unable to speak further and even twenty-five years. Then from the and remained dumb like a dove thereafter. blue, an amendment comes into effect and Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I asked the District the cases start moving from the S.D.M's Magistrate about the reason for the sudden court .to the Tehsildar's court and it takes silence on the part of that person. He said twenty five years for such cases to reach the that Sardar Swaran Singh who has forcibly Supreme Court. occupied the land of the 'Sahariyas' enjoys the blessings of big shots and he gets ree- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the pres- ommendat10ns from the Central Govern- ence of Chaudhary Sahib and other han. ment and various Ministers as a result of Ministers, I would like to tell the Government which he is able to forcibly occupy the land of that they should strengthen their political will the Sahariyas and deny them their rights. to ensure that land is properly distributed to Therefore, it was but natural that in the face the landless farmers, who toil hard to feed of such a powerful person, the poor landless the nation, and that they get the actual pos- fellow had no option but to remain silent and session of land. In the preamble to our

even suppress his anger and auguish. At Constitution I we have laid down that "WE, that moment, he could justtremble and even THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having sQlemnly hiS tears had gone beyond melting point. resolved to constitute India into a ...... and to secure Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the factual to all its citizens: JUSTICE, social, economic pOSition is that most of the land ceiling laws and politicaL ...... do hereby adopt, enact passed in the country, have not been strictly and give to ourselves this Constitution." and implemented.lwould like to congratulate the swearing by the names of Mahatma Gandhi. West Bengal Government for their splendid Pandit Nehru, Sardar Patel, Netaji Bose and performance in this regard because in that Chaudhary Charan Singh, we proclaim aloud State, most of these laws have been imple- to other countries of the world that ours is a mented in right earnest. but unfortunately in country of farmers, but han. Mr. Speaker, other States, a large number of land disputes Sir, please tell us if it is true in this case. Mr. •are still pending in the courts. Number of Deputy-Speaker. Sir, if you go to our vil- such cases runs into ten to twenty thousand lages, you will find that in this country, the in many States and in Karnataka, it has greatest frauds have taken place under the touched the rtlark of even seventy thousand. cover of Land Ceiling Laws. If any law has In such cases, stay orders are a regular been grossly violated in this country, it is the feature. As a result of all this, the same land land ceiling law. Despite the existence of is alloned and re-allotted not only once or land ceiling laws, even today you will find twice but ten times and even after the land mechanised farmers in this country, they has been allotted to the landless farmers, the exist in gross and unscrupulous violation of farmers are unable to get the possession, as law and it is on that account that benami writ petitions are filed before their occupying transactions take place. Their judicial proc- it. The filthy rich and moneyed people file writ ess also takes place in'a wrong manner. Mr. petitions and on the basis of arguments Oeputy·Speaker, Sir, I will give here an advanced by the eminent lawyers engaged example. Landless farmers who are given by these people, they easily obtain stay land are not permitted to sell it according to orders from the cou rts and as a res utt thereof, the rules. This provision is there to ensure the landless farmers continue to remain that they do not dispose.it off for money again landless. The landless farmers do not have to become landl~$s, but in fact these people adequate resources to fight their cases filed enter into an agreement with the farmers and either under section 145 or their writ peti- ar~· somehow able to have their consent 173 Constitution JYAISTHA 8,1912 (SAKA) , (66th Amend.) Bill 174 before the courts. Then these farmers are , like to make a submission which is a matter dispossessed of their land by the vested of national resolve. Mr. Justice Krishna Iyer, interests and once again, that farmer be- while giving his judgement in Bhimsingh comes landless with no option, but to be- versus Union of India case in 1981 had moan and cry hoarse. raised this issue and said that the founding fathers of our Constitution, had observed at Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I'was a the time of drafting the Constitution that ...... judge, I had observed in my judgement on (/nte"uptions) ...... Mirdha versus Bhondu case that ~ any landless person or anybody belonging to the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Lodha, Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe is you may continue tomorrow. deprived of his or her land through some illegal transactions or persuasions then that [English] person need not obtain any decree from the court to reclaim his land. Moreover, even the SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Sir, I will provision of time bar would not be applicable continue tomorrow. in his case, even after frtty years and that it is the bounden duty of this Socialist Govern- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House ment to get back his land to him. stands adjourned to reassemble tomorrow at 11.00 A.M. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, unless and until, we earnestty implement the land re- 18.00 hr•• form laws in the country, further enactment of laws would not serve any purpose as they The Lok Sabha then adjourned till EI9v9n would prove to be nothing, but mere paper of the Clock on Wednesday, May 30, tigers. Therefore, before concluding, I would 19901Jyaistha 9, 1912 (Saka)

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