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Thomas R. Jones Interviewer: Roberta W Thomas R. Jones Oral History Interview – RFK#2, 01/25/72 Administrative Information Creator: Thomas R. Jones Interviewer: Roberta W. Greene Date of Interview: January 25, 1972 Place of Interview: Brooklyn, New York Length: 33 pages Biographical Note Judge, Supreme Court, State of New York; founder, chairman, board of directors, Bedford- Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, 1966 - 1972. In this interview, Jones discusses his relationship with Robert F. Kennedy and the Bedford-Stuyvesant restoration among other issues. Access Open Usage Restrictions According to the deed of gift signed December 28, 1992, copyright of these materials has been assigned to the United States Government. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. Copyright The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be “used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research.” If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excesses of “fair use,” that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your questions concerning copyright to the reference staff. Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings. Suggested Citation Thomas R. Jones, recorded interview by Roberta W. Greene, January 25, 1972, (page number), Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the John F. Kennedy Library. NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION JOHN F. KENNEDY LIBRARY Legal Agreement Pertaini ng to the Oral History I nterviews of Thomas R. Jones In accordance with the provisions of Chapter 21 of Title 44, United States Code, and subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter set forth, I, Thomas R. Jones, do hereby give, donate, and convey to the United States of Amer ica all my rights, title, and interest in the tape recording and transcript of personal interviews conducted on November 26, 1971 and January 25, 1972 at Br ookl yn, NY and prepared for deposit in the John F. Kennedy Library. This assignment is subject to the foll owing terms and conditions : {l) The transcript shall be made available for use by researchers as soon as it has been deposi ted in the John F. Kennedy Library. (2) The tape recording shall be made available to those researchers who have access to the transcript. (3) I hereby assign to the United States Government all copyright I may have in the interview transcript and tape. ( 4) Copies of the transcript and the tape recording may be provided by the Library to researchers upon request. (5) Copies of the transcript and tape recording may be deposited in or l oaned to institutions other than the John F. Kennedy Li brary. Donor ,AIM~ 7,t lf?_tj ~ Date ' c .. ==-> ~~~ Archivist of the United States Date Thomas R. Jones – RFK #2 Table of Contents Page Topic 42 Personnel changes at the Distribution and Services Corporation [D&S] 53, 63 The effect that the personnel changes had on the effectiveness of the D&S and the restoration project 61 Jones’ personal relationships with those working at the D&S 65 How Robert F. Kennedy’s [RFK] presidential campaign affected the restoration project 69 Unrest in the community before and during the restoration project 70 RFK’s general impact on the restoration project 73 Continuation of the restoration project by other Kennedy family members after RFK’s death Second oral History Interview with THOMAS R. JONES January 25, 1972 Brooklyn, New York By Roberta W. Greene For the Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Project of the Kennedy Library GREENE: We had talked about the changes that took place in Restoration (Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation] in the early days, and then I was going to ask you to look at the D & s (Distribution & Services Corporation] and the personnel changes that occurred there, beginning with Ed Logue [Edward J. Logue] and then moving on to Eli Jacobs and finally John Doar, and if you could evaluate the problems and the contributions of each. JONES: Robert Kennedy was attempting to find an outstanding leader in urban affairs to deal with the businessmen and political leaders who were to make up the D & S Corporation once it was understood that two corporations would be developed in order to facilitate the actual working relations between a black community, which as you know was a highly organized and very explosive place to be in those days, and the business community with its own set of priorities and its own assumptions. So the search was on by himself and his staff to find such a person. And I came into the picture because obviously such a person would have to work with my group. And he always was careful to press that issue and make sure that we were working together. I might point out that this reflected his desire to work with rather than on the community, and I appreciated that and everybody who worked with me appreciated that this was a trying period, I mean testing period and trying because of the people with whom we found ourselves dealing. At any rate, without being able to recall the date, one meeting at his office in 45th Street, above the post office, we agreed that I should visit Ed Logue in . GREENE: Boston. JONES: ... Boston. I think it was in Boston; he was in Boston then? Maybe Ed Logue was in New Haven then. I don't know what he was doing in New Haven, but in addition to that we were invited to go to see New Haven and Mayor Lee's [Richard c. Lee] projects which were reputed to be the most successful enterprises in the country in urban 43 development. Again I can't recall the name of all the projects, but we dutifully ordered cars or buses and a whole group of us went up to New Haven where we met Ed Logue and we had lunch with Lee and some members of his cabinet--Lee then being the mayor of New Haven. We spent the whole day wandering around in some of the redeveloped areas of New Haven. Some of them looked attractive. None of them were so startling to me because I couldn't see the people. I saw buildings which were pointed out to me as wonderful examples of urban redevelopment. While it was lost on me, I was saying well maybe I'll learn to look, just like you learn to look at art. I felt that perhaps it was something deficient in me. I say this in retrospect, but really that's the way I felt. I said, What on earth is all of this, when I don't see the people and I can't talk to them and get their reactions to the new living conditions and contrast that with old, really. I have to go inside a person's apartment; I can't look at the facade of the building. I've seen all the towers and castles of Europe and they don't mean anything either, you know, unless I intend to analyze the lives of the people of that day. At any rate, I went around with Frank Thomas (Franklin A. Thomas] and various members of the board of directors of Restoration, whose names I can't remember now. But we had a group of about twelve of our board who saw the place. And then my group went home except for Frank Thomas and myself, and we sat in a very fancy restaurant with Ed Logue and talked about what would be; how we could work out the relationships with the D & S Corporation. I don't think Ed Logue fully understood then that he was in a sense being interviewed to be the leader of the D & S Corporation, or if he did have that impression, he certainly didn't seem to warm to the notion. But he was telling us how he saw the future of American cities and he painted a very broad picture of change accomplished by radical measures--that we would have to simply move large numbers of people and rehabilitate large numbers of buildings and take hold of the thing in a big way before we could really make an impact on any city the size of New York. He may be right in the final analysis, but that was his concept. But he was a very impressive and dynamic, deliberate, purposeful fellow, and we got his message. So we left on good terms. Then Ed Logue came down and started to negotiate or discuss his possible role with people in Pratt Institute, had a series of meetings then.
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