Education and Early Childhood Learning
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PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 3 - EDUCATION Wednesday 4 September 2019 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio areas EDUCATION AND EARLY CHILDHOOD LEARNING UNCORRECTED The Committee met at 9:30 MEMBERS The Hon. Mark Latham (Chair) The Hon. Mark Banasiak Ms Abigail Boyd The Hon. Anthony D'Adam The Hon. Wes Fang The Hon. Scott Farlow The Hon. Courtney Houssos The Hon. Matthew Mason-Cox (Deputy Chair) Mr David Shoebridge PRESENT The Hon. Sarah Mitchell, Minister for Education and Early Childhood Learning Mr Kevin Conolly, Parliamentary Secretary for Education CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Wednesday, 4 September 2019 Legislative Council Page 1 The CHAIR: Welcome to Portfolio Committee No. 3 dealing with the portfolio areas of Education and Early Childhood Learning. In particular, I welcome Minister Sarah Mitchell, Parliamentary Secretary Kevin Conolly and the officials led by Mark Scott, head of the department. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the portfolio of Education and Early Childhood Learning. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. In accordance with the broadcasting guidelines, while members of the media may film or record Committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. I would also remind media representatives that you must take responsibility for what you publish about the Committee's proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcasting of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that a witness could only answer if they had more time or with certain documents to hand. In those circumstances witnesses are advised that they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days. Any messages from advisers or members' staff seated in the public gallery should be delivered through the Committee secretariat. I remind the Minister and the officers accompanying you that you are free to pass notes and refer directly to your advisers seated at the table behind you. Transcripts of this hearing will be available on the web from tomorrow morning. I ask everyone to please turn their mobile phones to silent for the duration of the hearing. All witnesses from departments, statutory bodies or corporations will be sworn prior to giving evidence. I remind the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that they do not need to be sworn as they have already sworn an oath to their office as a member of Parliament. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 3 – EDUCATION UNCORRECTED Wednesday, 4 September 2019 Legislative Council Page 2 PAUL MARTIN, Acting Chief Executive Officer, New South Wales Education Standards Authority, affirmed and examined GEORGINA HARRISSON, Deputy Secretary, Educational Services, Department of Education, affirmed and examined LESLIE LOBLE, Deputy Secretary, Education Futures and Governance, Department of Education, affirmed and examined MARK SCOTT, Secretary, Department of Education, sworn and examined MURAT DIZDAR, Deputy Secretary, School Operations and Performance, Department of Education, affirmed and examined PETER RIORDAN, Deputy Secretary, Corporate Services, Department of Education, sworn and examined DEIRDRE MULKERIN, Deputy Secretary, People and Culture, Department of Education, affirmed and examined TRACY MACKEY, Executive Director, Early Childhood Education, affirmed and examined DAVID MURPHY, Executive Director, Corporate Governance and School Standards, New South Wales Education Standards Authority, sworn and examined ERIK MARANIK, Chief Operating Officer, School Infrastructure NSW, Department of Education, affirmed and examined The CHAIR: I now declare the proposed expenditure for the portfolio of Education and Early Childhood Learning open for examination. Our Committee has resolved that Government members will not be asking questions so the session will run from 9.30 a.m. until 11.30 a.m. It has been further agreed that generally it will run in blocks of 40 minutes, with half to the Labor Opposition and half to the crossbench, of which there are three members, myself included. We have an allocation that we have worked out in advance that will become clearer as we proceed. The Minister and Parliamentary Secretary will not be questioned in the afternoon and evening sessions. There is no provision under our standing orders for any opening statement so we move straight to questioning. Again, I thank everyone for their attendance. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Welcome, Minister and many public servants. Minister, are you still confident that you will totally clear the school maintenance backlog by July next year? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: Yes, I am confident with the progress we have made in relation to that commitment. We have made the commitment that that is what we are going to do and I have no reason to doubt that that will be the case. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: What is the current liability for school maintenance as at today's date? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: I might ask the secretary to respond to that? The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Can we just get a figure for the liability as at today's date? Mr MARANIK: At the moment, the liability for the maintenance backlog stands at $622 million, which is approximately $274,000 line items of activity that will be completed this year. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Minister, is asbestos removal covered by the school maintenance program? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: Again, I will get Mr Maranik to respond to that question. Mr MARANIK: Sorry? The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Is asbestos removal part of this school maintenance program? Mr MARANIK: In terms of asbestos, it is a very broad program. What we have is a whole series of ways to deal with asbestos as part of the program. In relation to maintenance, asbestos is dealt with as we find it and a risk assessment is done in accordance with the guidelines in relation to how that is treated. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: We will get to the guidelines in just a moment. Minister, there are 2,200 schools in New South Wales, is that correct? PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 3 – EDUCATION UNCORRECTED Wednesday, 4 September 2019 Legislative Council Page 3 The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: There are approximately 2,200, yes. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: The Asbestos Management Plan for New South Wales government schools, which is dated November 2015, revised 2017, is the document used to manage asbestos in New South Wales schools, is that correct? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: That is my understanding, yes. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: And the Department of Education asbestos register hazardous materials and risk assessment is a document that lists the locations of asbestos in specific schools in New South Wales, is that correct? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: I will ask the secretary to respond to that? Mr MARANIK: In terms of known asbestos, that is correct. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: In terms of known asbestos? Mr MARANIK: Correct. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: So there is the potential for unknown asbestos in New South Wales schools? Mr MARANIK: The portfolio over the 2,200 schools has a very significant age profile to it in those eras where asbestos was actually used as a very common building material across a whole range of products in which asbestos was contained. We are vigilant and our processes in terms of whenever we are working on buildings picks that up. So from that perspective, the schools have an asbestos register, which is accessible, that indicates that. But that still means that we do reviews of materials as we progress through any building works or maintenance works. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: We will come back to that in just a moment. Minister, is it true that, according to the NSW Department of Education asbestos register, 2,185 of the approximate 2,200 schools in New South Wales have asbestos on their grounds? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: Again, I will ask Mr Maranik to comment on that. Mr MARANIK: I would have to take the question on that particular number on notice. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: I can inform you that my office and I have searched through those documents and that is the figure that we have come to. Can we accept that— The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: No, Mr Maranik said that we will take the question on notice to clarify the figure. That is what we will do. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: What program do you have for asbestos removal in schools in New South Wales? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: I will refer to Mr Maranik, who has responsibility around that issue. Mr MARANIK: We have adopted a multi-layered risk-management approach. There are the guidelines and the compliance framework that relates to asbestos in New South Wales, which we comply with. We have the asbestos register in place for those schools where asbestos is identified. Then we have a process that is well documented that we step through with any works associated with schools and the unexpected finds protocol. Mr SCOTT: I add to Mr Maranik's answer that we are managing asbestos appropriately, as all other government agencies and households need to be able to do. We all understand that there was a period of time of construction in New South Wales when asbestos products were widely used. We know that it is important that that asbestos material be contained. We understand that there needs to be significant protocols in place when such buildings are disturbed or when maintenance work is taking place. In the hazardous materials register you can get a sense that the department is aware of the need to manage asbestos, as does the health department and the transport department, as well as households all across the State.