Wednesday Volume 513 14 July 2010 No. 32

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 14 July 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 931 14 JULY 2010 932

belief, large numbers of civil servants are not very well House of Commons paid—half of them earn £21,000 a year or less—and we want there to be extra protection for them. I want to Wednesday 14 July 2010 engage as quickly as possible with the unions to negotiate an arrangement that has not only fairness but accountability The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock built into it.

PRAYERS Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Last week, the Minister said that his proposals may not have been necessary if the Public and Commercial [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Services Union had joined the other five trade unions in agreeing to the previous Government’s reform package. That being so, will he start his negotiations with that Oral Answers to Questions package, which would have saved £500 million over three years and protected the lowest paid?

CABINET OFFICE Mr Maude: As I say, we are very keen to have proper protection for the lowest-paid workers. Had that scheme The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— been in existence when the coalition Government came into office, a pressing case would have been made to Civil Service Compensation Scheme leave it as it was and work on that basis. That option is no longer on the table, so it seemed to us right to look at 1. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): a scheme that is sustainable for the long term. The What recent discussions he has had with trade union previous revised scheme made only relatively modest representatives on reform of the civil service changes, and it was still way out of kilter with anything compensation scheme. [8067] available under the statutory redundancy scheme or, The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster indeed, throughout most of the private sector. General (Mr Francis Maude): I wrote to the chairman of the Council of Civil Service Unions immediately after Paul Goggins: I am grateful for that answer. However, making my statement to the House on 6 July. I have it is hard to take the Minister seriously about these invited the unions to begin discussions with us on negotiations when after all the press speculation, and developing a sustainable and affordable long-term successor more than a week after he sent his letter to the trade to the current civil service compensation scheme. I met unions, the 600,000 staff who are affected still have no the unions yesterday, and my officials have had further details of what he is proposing other than the threat of meetings with them. a 12-month cap on redundancy payments to all staff. Why should the lowest-paid staff—the junior official in Katy Clark: I thank the Minister for that answer. As a jobcentre—be treated in exactly the same way as the he will appreciate, thousands of civil servants currently permanent secretary of a Government Department? face losing their jobs as a result of this Government’s policies. Will such people be able to rely on their contractual Mr Maude: It is precisely my intention that that terms? should not be the case. That is why I want to engage with the unions quickly to develop a scheme that protects Mr Maude: It is common ground that the current the lowest paid. It is quite a complicated thing to do—it civil service compensation scheme is unaffordable. The is not capable of being done in the course of a Bill—so hon. Lady’s own Government attempted to introduce a we need to negotiate it. I want to ensure that it works new scheme that introduced modest changes to the and is effective in providing fairness, but is also affordable. current scheme. That was agreed by five out of the six I hope that we can engage with this as soon as possible. civil service unions, but sadly, the sixth did not agree, I have made it clear to the unions that it is our intention went to the High Court, and had it struck down. The not only to negotiate on the ceiling that is available for result is that savings that had been scheduled to be voluntary redundancy schemes but to provide protection made by the previous Government now cannot be made, for the lower paid. so there is an additional cost. I have taken the view that it is not responsible to leave matters as they are. Nor is it Government Projects (Consultants) fair to leave in limbo for ever people who know that there is, through no fault of their own, no job for them 2. Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What for the future, which has been the case for some time. plans he has to review arrangements for the use of Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does consultants for Government projects. [8068] the Minister accept that any plans severely to restrict redundancy payments for hundreds of thousands of The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster low-paid civil servants will be seen as a kick in the teeth General (Mr Francis Maude): In May, we announced an for thousands of workers who have faced uncertainty immediate freeze on the use of consultants. Where there about their jobs over the past few years, and who face is an operational necessity and the work cannot be uncertainty in the future? carried out by in-house staff, any new consultancy spend above £20,000 a month must be signed off by a Mr Maude: It is precisely for that reason that I want Minister. In addition, all consultancy spend, whether to engage quickly with the unions to negotiate additional pre-existing or newly approved, must be re-approved on protection for low-paid workers. Contrary to general a rolling basis every three months. Processes are now in 933 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 934 place whereby both my right hon. Friend the Chief of volunteering. For example, school governor places Secretary and I must personally approve any request to remain vacant. Will he consider how we can break employ a consultant beyond nine months. down the barriers, whether regulatory or otherwise, that deter a broader number of people from coming forward Amber Rudd: I thank my right hon. Friend for that to volunteer, particularly in disadvantaged areas? answer. Has he considered the fact that by reducing the use of consultants, we will be able to help public servants Mr Letwin: The short answer to my hon. Friend’s to develop their own careers more successfully, and that question is yes. She is absolutely right that we need to that will have the added advantage of protecting jobs, break down those barriers, and my right hon. Friend because we can keep the work with them rather than the Secretary of State for Education is currently looking putting it out to consultants? at how we might do that. It is important to note that the accusation that is Mr Maude: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. sometimes made that school governors will need to have The excessive use of consultants—we discovered that Criminal Records Bureau checks is not correct. Unless there were 2,500 consultants embedded in Whitehall those governors are involved in working with children across Government—is not only expensive and a wasteful in school on a day-to-day basis, all that needs to be use of money but demoralising for mainstream civil checked is the list 99 bar. We are, of course, also looking servants, who feel that they are undervalued. By cutting at how we can reduce CRB checks to a common-sense back on the use of consultants we can begin to re-equip level and at the vetting and barring regime. I hope that the mainstream civil service with the professional skills all those things will help persuade people that it is well that it wants. worth doing important voluntary work.

Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Can Jane Ellison: All over the country this Sunday there the Minister assure the House that the Government will will be “big lunch” street parties, and Battersea is no not employ any consultants at all on the experimental exception. In my area it has been greatly facilitated by free market schools strategy at the Department for the council issuing a flat-rate charge for street closures Education? I am sure I heard a rumour that the Government with an easily completed form, and generally being had paid half a million pounds to the New Schools accommodating and encouraging. Does my right hon. Network. Friend agree that we should encourage all councils to do that? Mr Maude: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if there are any consultants being used, that will have been Mr Letwin: I congratulate my hon. Friend on her part signed off personally by a Minister in the Department in getting that to happen, and her council on taking that for Education and will be made public online shortly. admirable attitude. One reason why we are so keen to He should address his question to my colleagues in that decentralise and to give councils much more responsibility Department and scan the website for notification. and power is precisely that they can then take sensible local initiatives of that kind to encourage local and Voluntary and Community Sectors community groups to flourish, which of course is part of our big society agenda. 3. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What plans he has to reduce the regulatory burden on the voluntary and Mr Speaker: Order. May I just appeal to the right community sectors. [8069] hon. Gentleman to face the House so that we can all enjoy his mellifluous tones? 9. Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): What plans he has to reduce the regulatory burden on the voluntary and Mrs Grant: What plans does my right hon. Friend community sectors. [8075] have to extend longer-term funding to voluntary sector organisations so that they can do more? 12. Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): What plans he has to reduce the regulatory Mr Letwin: I should say, Mr Speaker, that no one has burden on the voluntary and community sector. [8079] previously accused me of having a mellifluous tone. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver My hon. Friend is on to something enormously Letwin): We thoroughly accept the implication of the important. It is not just that we need to extend additional question. Voluntary organisations are subject to much funding—it is much more than that. We need to involve too much regulation and monitoring. That is why, in the voluntary sector in a whole range of massive reform addition to the important work that Lord Young is programmes. We hope to see it involved in schools, in doing on reducing the impact of health and safety the rehabilitation revolution, in the work programme, in legislation and the compensation culture on those drug and alcohol rehabilitation and in much else besides. organisations, we are about to launch a specific taskforce We are moving away from the micro-management of to examine the impact of regulation on small organisations. processes in contracts and towards a very exciting new We hope to announce the chair of that taskforce very world of payment by results, so that voluntary organisations shortly and that it will complete its work by next spring. can use their talents and initiative to achieve real results.

Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for his answer. One Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): One of the biggest of the key areas of the Government’s big society project barriers to volunteering and volunteer groups is taxation, is to encourage volunteering. However, it is accepted not just the increase in VAT that was voted through last that in many disadvantaged areas there are lower levels night but the level of taxation that volunteer drivers 935 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 936 have to pay on their mileage. Will the Ministers please Mr Hurd: I have had a series of discussions with talk to HM Customs and the Chancellor about the several intermediaries in the marketplace that are in the increase in that taxation, in line with the petrol duty business of trying to encourage and support social increase over the past decade? investment. The intention is for the bank to stand behind and support those intermediaries to allow them Mr Letwin: The hon. Gentleman tempts me to do to do more. something that a ministerial career cannot long survive— speak for the Chancellor of the Exchequer on tax Civil Servants (Terms and Conditions) matters. I certainly undertake to continue the discussions with the Chancellor, which I have on all occasions, 5. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): What about how he can further our general programme to recent representations he has received from trade favour community groups in the voluntary sector. That unions on proposed changes to the terms and is high on his agenda as well as ours. conditions of employment of civil servants. [8071]

Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does the right hon. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Gentleman believe that increasing the rate of VAT for General (Mr Francis Maude): I met the Council of Civil charities will help them deal with the real difficulties of Service Unions yesterday. The main issue discussed was over-regulation? the proposed changes to the civil service compensation scheme, which I covered in my reply to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark). Mr Letwin: It appears that there is a combined effort on the Labour Benches to persuade me to adopt the Mr Chope: Did my right hon. Friend discuss yesterday role of a Treasury Minister, which I am not and cannot a subject of great public concern: civil servants on do. Of course, we are conscious of the burdens that fall average have higher pay, get better pensions, work shorter on the voluntary sector. However, for many people in hours and have longer holidays than their private sector that sector, a framework that enables them to do what counterparts, and they also have lower productivity? they do best, in a way that achieves results, is what really What are the Government doing about that? counts. My response to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) is the response to that. Mr Maude: Public sector productivity generally fell in absolute terms in the past 12 years, whereas private Big Society Bank sector productivity rose by between 20 and 30%. There is therefore a problem with productivity in the public 4. John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): What progress he has sector. However, I must tell my hon. Friend that median made in establishing the Big Society bank. [8070] pay in the civil service is lower than that in the private sector, but pay in the wider public sector is higher. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Does the Hurd): The Government are committed to setting up Minister think that a career in public service is a good that independent wholesale bank to develop the market thing? for social investment. It will be funded by dormant bank accounts and I will work with ministerial colleagues to establish it by April 2011. Mr Maude: Yes, 100%, which is why I adopted one. Voluntary Sector John Glen: When visiting the River Bourne community farm in my constituency in Salisbury and many other 6. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): What plans community groups, I found that one of their big concerns he has to support the voluntary sector. [8072] is the bureaucracy that they might face when accessing the funds from the Big Society bank, though they are The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick encouraged by its creation. Will my hon. Friend confirm Hurd): As the House has heard, we intend to reduce the the process and the means whereby small community bureaucratic burdens on the sector and get more resources groups, which do not have the information, can access into it, not least through the Big Society bank and a those much needed funds? new community grants programme. We want to reform commissioning to make it easier for voluntary sector Mr Hurd: The intention is for the bank to be as organisations to compete for public sector contracts. independent and unbureaucratic as possible. It will be a wholesaler, not a retailer, so it will support intermediaries Mr Spencer: Rumbles is a charity in my constituency that are growing the market for social investment. If it that provides training for young people with learning invests in social enterprises in Salisbury, it will do so difficulties. It has enjoyed a good relationship with local through intermediaries that have structured financial colleges, supplying national vocational qualifications, products, such as social impact or community bonds but recent budgetary pressures have put the whole system that connect private capital with the opportunity for under threat. What will the Minister do to help support good, and for social impact. the relationship between local colleges and local charities and volunteers? Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Has the Minister had any discussions with credit unions? Mr Hurd: I thank my hon. Friend for giving me The big idea of a bank is very similar to what already advance notice of his specific constituency interest. I exists. Why reinvent the wheel? have liaised with the Department for Education, which 937 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 938 is very clear that the voluntary sector has an important biggest suppliers on a portfolio basis to take out excessive role in ensuring that all 16 to 18-year-olds can access cost. I met the 20 biggest suppliers to the Government learning opportunities that best suit them. However, the last week to kick that process off. That is just the Department pointed out that it is for colleges to decide beginning; there is much more to do. what their learning offer should be. On a more constructive note, if Rumbles believes it has a learning offer that will Richard Ottaway: In the light of that important answer, fill a gap in the 16-to-18 learning market, it should does my right hon. Friend remember the pledge given in discuss it with the local authority and seek to become a 2006 by the previous Government to reduce dramatically 16-to-18 provider in its own right. the 794 websites that they ran at that time? Accordingly, was he as astonished as I was to discover just a few Voluntary Sector weeks ago that the number of websites had actually grown to 820? What is he doing to reduce that inefficient 7. Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ use of public resources? Co-op): What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the compact between the Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right that Government and the voluntary sector. [8073] the result of the previous Government’s attempt to cut the number of websites was actually a significant increase. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick We will take urgent steps to cut the number of websites, Hurd): The right hon. Gentleman has a long-standing particularly in relation to those that compete with each interest in this area. The Government are fully committed other. I discovered that the Department of Energy and to the compact, as the Prime Minister stated when he Climate Change was bidding against the Carbon Trust launched the big society programme at No. 10 on for spots on Google, which is one indication of the lack 18 May. That is why my right hon. Friend the Minister of discipline in that field. for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General has written to Ministers with responsibility for the big society agenda Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): to ask them to consider the compact as decisions on Has the efficiency and reform group made an assessment in-year budgetary savings and efficiencies are taken. of the Government’s programme for converting 800 schools into academies at a cost of £495 million over the next Alun Michael: I welcome the Minister to his new four years? In particular, has the group formed a view responsibilities, and I am sure that we will look at the on whether that represents good value for money when detail of this matter in the coming months. Departments set against the loss of hundreds of new school buildings and Government agencies are large and powerful, whereas following the cancellation of the Building Schools for voluntary organisations are generally small and innovative. the Future programme? Does he therefore agree that supporting the compact process is an important responsibility of Ministers across Mr Maude: That was a very good effort from the Departments, as is ensuring fairness in how Departments right hon. Gentleman, but we believe that the coalition’s deal with the voluntary sector organisations that are programme to increase the number of academies is very vital to their work? valuable. It is part of the process of giving much more power to parents, and of giving the schools that are Mr Hurd: I totally understand the right hon. Gentleman’s available for local people the ability to reflect what they point. That is why we have set up a group of Ministers want rather than what central planners dictate. with responsibility for the big society agenda. The first meeting of those Ministers will be chaired by the Minister National Citizen Service for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General next week. The compact and our plans to strengthen the 10. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What transparency and accountability of its implementation progress has been made in setting up a national citizen will be on the agenda. service. [8077]

Efficiency Savings 13. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What progress he has made in establishing a national citizen 8. Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): What service. [8080] efficiency savings have been identified by his Department’s efficiency and reform group. [8074] The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): The coalition Government The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster are committed to introducing a national citizen service General (Mr Francis Maude): We have identified significant to give young people an opportunity to develop the scope for efficiency savings through a variety of means, skills needed to be active and responsible citizens, mix including moratoriums on information and communications with people from different backgrounds and get involved technology spending of more than £1 million, on in their communities in order to promote engagement, consultants costing more than £20,000 a month, on cohesion and responsibility. Details of this programme advertising and marketing spend, on new websites and will be announced by the Cabinet Office later this year, on new or renewed property leases. Other means include with a launch expected in 2011. a freeze on recruitment, the procurement of goods and services for the whole Government using our aggregated Graham Evans: The national citizen service will provide scale to drive down prices, removing discrepancies such a vital outlet, especially for disadvantaged young people as the variation of 170% in the cost of a standard in my constituency of Weaver Vale. How can we ensure computer monitor, and renegotiating with the Government’s that this group of young people get involved? 939 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 940

Mr Maude: The whole point is to bring together Mr Hurd: I share that concern, and that is why I am young people from different backgrounds, rather in the working with colleagues in the Department for way that national service was a great leveller. People Communities and Local Government and our strategic from all sorts of backgrounds and geographies came partners to try to identify examples of best practice, together to work together, and that did promote cohesion. especially where local authorities are working in a We are especially concerned that young people from partnership with the voluntary and community sector disadvantaged backgrounds should not be excluded to manage this difficult transition carefully. from this process. I hear what my hon. Friend says and it would be good if one of the pilot schemes next year Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I welcome could involve disadvantaged young people from his what my hon. Friend said about the community grant constituency. [Interruption.] fund, especially given the difficult financial climate that many local authorities face. Can he tell us more about Mr Speaker: Order. An enormous number of private the timing of that fund? conversations are taking place in the Chamber, and it is not only unseemly, but unfair on the Member asking Mr Hurd: The programme is subject to approval in the question and on the Minister to whose reply we all the comprehensive spending review, but all being well wish to listen. our intention is for it to be operational early next year. The focus will be on trying to provide grass-roots Julian Smith: North Yorkshire county council has community grants to deprived areas that are characterised four fantastic outdoor education centres, including Bewerley by high levels of economic deprivation and low levels of park in Nidderdale in my constituency. I suspect that social capital. my right hon. Friend does not have time for potholing, Efficiency Savings but would he come and meet me so that I can show him how those four centres could deliver on the national 14. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): What efficiency citizens programme? savings have been identified by the efficiency and reform group. [8081] Mr Maude: It is not so much not having the time for potholing as not having the inclination. However, I The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster would of course be delighted to meet my hon. Friend to General (Mr Francis Maude): I refer my hon. Friend to discuss these very desirable locations with which he the reply I gave to Question 8. tempts me. Voluntary Sector Steve Baker: The last Government spent a fortune on advertising themselves. How will this Government make 11. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What plans he savings in that area? has for future Government support for local voluntary Mr Maude: We established at an early stage a moratorium groups; and if he will make a statement. [8078] on new advertising and marketing spend. Any exceptions The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick to that moratorium have to come to me personally, and Hurd): We want to encourage more people to set up and I am delighted to find that remarkably few applications join local voluntary groups, and we want those groups are being made for exceptions. The amount of taxpayers’ to have much more influence over the issues that affect money spent by the Government on advertising and their communities. Our plans include the training of marketing has been significantly reduced. At the end of new community organisers, who can be fantastically the year, I expect to be able to show a very significant effective in that context, and a new community grant reduction in what was being spent by the last Government programme to help put money in the hands of on what I have to say was a pretty incontinent basis. neighbourhood groups to implement their own neighbourhood plans. PRIME MINISTER Robert Halfon: Is the Minister aware that in Harlow the big society has been operating for some time? Will The Prime Minister was asked— he agree to visit successful charities such as the Michael Roberts charitable trust and Rainbow Services, which Engagements are ready to pilot the big society reforms, independently of Government and at the heart of the community? Q1. [8052] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): If he will list his official Mr Hurd: I am delighted to hear that the big society engagements for Wednesday 14 July. is alive and well in Harlow, and I know that my hon. Friend is a passionate advocate of the values that underlie The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure it. I am happy to confirm to him that I will visit Harlow the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute on 29 July and I look forward to seeing what is being to our soldiers who have died in Afghanistan over the done, what we can learn from and what we can build on. last week. They are Bombardier Samuel Robinson, 5th Regiment Royal Artillery; Marine David Hart, Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Does the 40 Commando Royal Marines; and a Marine from Minister share my concern that many voluntary and 40 Commando who died yesterday. We also pay tribute community organisations that deliver public services to the three soldiers from 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha and value for money could be targeted unfairly for cuts Rifles who lost their lives yesterday and to their comrades in the present economic environment if sufficient and who were injured. We believe this incident was caused proper consideration is not given to their efficiency and by the actions of an Afghan soldier betraying his Afghan effectiveness? and international comrades. I spoke to President Karzai 941 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 942 about this issue yesterday, and a joint investigation by right to have a thorough investigation, but as he said, the Afghan authorities and international forces is under we must not lose sight of the importance of the work way, which will cover every aspect of the incident and our troops are doing in Afghanistan. the lessons to be learned from it. May I ask the Prime Minister about Northern Ireland? I have to say that there should, however, be no Although it is now highly unusual for people in Belfast knee-jerk reaction and no change in our strategy. We to see such violence on their streets, everyone will be must continue to work with the Afghan army to create a worried about the events of recent days. Will the Prime stable Afghanistan able to maintain its own security Minister update the House and tell us what discussions and to prevent al-Qaeda from returning. At this very he has had with the First Minister and the Deputy First sad time, our thoughts should be with the families and Minister? Although this is a devolved responsibility, friends of all these brave servicemen. What they do on will he join me in paying tribute to the professionalism our behalf is brave, courageous and shows their dedication and bravery of the men and women of the Police and professionalism. It is right that we pay tribute to Service of Northern Ireland? them. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues The Prime Minister: I certainly join the right hon. and others and, in addition to my duties in this House, I and learned Lady in paying tribute to that police service. shall have further such meetings later today. Anyone watching the pictures on our television screens last night could see how brave and how restrained the Tom Blenkinsop: I would like to echo the warm words police were in the way that they dealt with behaviour of the Prime Minister about our service personnel that was, frankly, completely unacceptable. To update serving abroad. the House, last night was the third night of violence, the most serious of which was in the Ardoyne district in Will the Prime Minister join me in praising One north Belfast. Over 80 police officers have been injured NorthEast and Redcar and Cleveland Labour council after being attacked with, for instance, petrol bombs, for helping develop a £600,000 regeneration plan for the pipe bombs and bricks. The police came under fire on market town of Guisborough in my constituency in Sunday night, and shots were fired again last night. The order to help small business? Is it not the case, however, police have been forced to retaliate with battle rounds that for those who run small businesses, the Government’s and water cannons, but, as I have said, I think that VAT increase is the real jobs tax? anyone who watched what they did or who, like me, has had a briefing from David Ford, the Policing and Justice The Prime Minister: First of all, I welcome the hon. Minister, will know that they acted with real restraint. Gentleman to the House. I know he used to work for Ashok Kumar, who was widely liked and respected I keep in touch regularly with the Secretary of State across the House of Commons. What we are doing to for Northern Ireland, who has been in Belfast as well, to help small business is to cut the small business rate of ensure that everything that needs to be done is being corporation tax. We think that is the best help we can done. As the right hon. and learned Lady knows, however, give. The future for small business will, of course, also this is a devolved issue, and, having devolved policing be helped by our local enterprise partnerships, which we and justice, we should allow David Ford, and the First think will be much more focused, much more local and Minister and Deputy First Minister, to give the lead will deliver better than the regional development agencies that they are indeed giving. they replace. Ms Harman: I am grateful to the Prime Minister for Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Will the Prime his answer. I reiterate what I said earlier: we will continue Minister join me in congratulating the Loughborough to support and work with the Government in their university student union rag committee, which as well efforts to ensure a peaceful future for all the people of as providing many volunteers to local groups has this Northern Ireland. year raised more than any other rag in the country—more This week the Government published their White than £1 million, including raising £34,000 in one day for Paper on the national health service. They say that they the Royal British Legion? Is not this an example of the will get rid of targets. Can the Prime Minister tell us big society in action? whether patients will keep their guaranteed right to see a cancer specialist within two weeks of seeing their GP? The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. She is absolutely right. Sometimes students The Prime Minister: May I first make one further can get a bad press for what they do, but we can see response on the Northern Ireland issue, with which I from the example of Loughborough that they have think everyone will agree? Now that we have a police focused on doing things for other people and raising service that is fully representative of the whole community money for charity. They should be congratulated. in Northern Ireland, there is no excuse for anyone not to co-operate with that police force. We all know that in Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): the end these things are not dealt with just by the police; I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Bombardier they have to be dealt by the communities as well, Samuel Robinson, 5th Regiment Royal Artillery; to working with the police to bring people to justice for Marine David Hart, 40 Commando Royal Marines; to completely unacceptable behaviour. the Marine from 40 Commando Royal Marines who As for the NHS, what we have decided is that we will died yesterday; and to the three soldiers from 1st Battalion keep targets only when they actually contribute to clinical the Royal Gurkha Rifles who lost their lives yesterday outcomes. We all want to see a higher cancer survival and those who were injured. Everyone will share the rate. I am afraid that, after 13 years of Labour government, Prime Minister’s concern about what happened. It is we have not the best cancer outcomes in Europe, and we 943 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 944 want the best cancer outcomes. That means rapid treatment, ploy of asking me questions. I am asking about the real yes, but it also means rapid follow-up, and it means costs of his reorganisation next year—the very time people getting the radiotherapy, chemotherapy and drugs when he says his priority will be cutting administration that they need. Those are all essential. The one thing and cutting the deficit. The White Paper admits that that we on this side of the House will do is continue to there will be extra costs because of loss of productivity, put real-terms increases into the NHS, whereas I understand staff relocation and redundancy. Does the Prime Minister that it is now Labour policy to cut the NHS. stand by what he said just a few months ago about NHS reorganisations? He said: Ms Harman: Quite apart from the anxiety of having “The disruption is terrible, the demoralisation worse—and the to wait, results are best if treatment starts as soon as waste of money inexcusable.” possible. That is why it is important to be diagnosed and to see a specialist quickly. The Prime Minister: We are not reorganising the bureaucracy; we are scrapping the bureaucracy. Is it The Prime Minister has not answered the question. really Labour’s great new tactic that the right hon. and The whole House will have seen that. He has dodged the learned Lady will be left defending the bureaucracy of question, just as his Health Secretary did. This is what primary care trusts and strategic health authorities and the Health Secretary said in the House when he, too, all the quangos and all the bureaucrats, all of whom are was dodging the question: paid vast salaries and huge pensions? Is that the new “I have not said that we are abandoning any of the cancer divide in British politics: they back the bureaucracy, we waiting-time targets at the moment”.—[Official Report,29June back the NHS? [Interruption.] 2010; Vol. 512, c. 698.] I ask the Prime Minister to give us a straight answer. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for South Will cancer patients keep their guarantee to see a specialist West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) should calm himself. within two weeks—yes or no? If he is trying to catch my eye, he has not got much chance at this rate. The Prime Minister: For some people, two weeks is too long. That is the whole point. If a target contributes Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Voluntary organisations to good clinical outcomes, it stays; if it does not, it goes. and charities were not responsible for the banking crisis, nor for the financial crisis left by the last Labour Now let the right hon. and learned Lady answer a Government. As we both value voluntary organisations question. Is it your policy—[Interruption.] I know that and charities, will the Prime Minister discuss with his the right hon. and learned Lady is not involved in the Treasury colleagues how the increase in VAT that those leadership election, which basically involves sucking up organisations have to pay can be refunded to them? to the trade unions, but she is capable of answering a question. Is it Labour policy to cut the NHS? The Prime Minister: I will certainly have those conversations with the Treasury, and we will want to do Mr Speaker: Order. I hope that the right hon. and everything we can to help what used to be called, rather learned Lady will confine herself—as I know she will condescendingly, the third sector but I believe is the first want to do—to her role, which is not to answer questions sector: the excellent charities, voluntary organisations but to ask them. and social enterprises that do so much for our country. One thing we should do is look at funding them on the Ms Harman: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Prime same basis as the Government fund themselves. The Minister has still not answered. He is obviously ditching Government are always very generous with their own the guarantee for cancer patients, but he has not the bureaucracy, and they need to recognise that so often guts to admit it to the House. Perhaps he can be more these first sector organisations have the right answers to straightforward with this question. The White Paper the social problems in our country. says that his reorganisation of the NHS will mean extra up-front administration costs, but it does not give the Q2. [8053] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): figure. Surely he must know the figure. How much extra Will the Prime Minister guarantee that firefighters and will it cost next year? police officers, who we all rely on to undertake dangerous and physically demanding jobs, will retain The Prime Minister: We are cutting £1 billion of the ability to retire and access their occupational administration from the NHS. We are cutting administration pensions before reaching state pension age? costs by 45% over the next Parliament. Obviously Labour The Prime Minister: First, may I welcome the hon. Members cannot answer questions, because they have Lady to the House? I will look very carefully into what no answers, but perhaps it is not unfair to point out that she says. As she knows, we have a review of pensions they are now defending the bureaucracy of the NHS. taking place, which is being carried out by the former We say that the primary care trusts and the strategic Labour Minister, the former Member for Barrow and health authorities—all that additional bureaucracy—should Furness, who has great expertise in this area. He will be go. We want the money to be spent on treatments, on making two reports, one before Christmas and another patients, on doctors and on nurses. The right hon. and in the new year, where we can look at the issue of public learned Lady is left defending the vast bureaucracy that sector pensions and try to reach some fair resolutions—and saw the number of managers go up far faster than the I think that is something all parties should be involved in. number of nurses. Is that still Labour policy? Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Will the Prime Ms Harman: The Prime Minister is talking about Minister consider having another conference call with longer-term speculative savings, but he has not answered Mark Zuckerberg, co-founder of Facebook, whose site my question. It is no good him resorting to his usual is currently hosting the group “RIP Raoul Moat”, 945 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 946 where a whole host of anti-police statements are posted? Budget is courageous, responsible and right—we are Can the Prime Minister have a conversation with Mark putting this country back on the path to prosperity Zuckerberg about removing this group? from the complete picture of ruin that the last Government left. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. As far as I can see, it is absolutely clear that Q5. [8056] Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): Raoul Moat was a callous murderer—full stop, end of Thanks to the massive deficit left by Labour, all but story—and I cannot understand any wave, however two departmental budgets are to be cut by between small, of public sympathy for this man. There should be 25% and 40%. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether sympathy for his victims, and for the havoc he wreaked we are about to see a 40% reduction in the funding sent in that community; there should be no sympathy for to Brussels, and is the European budget also to be cut? him. The Prime Minister: It is very true to say that all Q3. [8054] Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): In 2005, international organisations have to recognise that, as we the pupils of Joseph Leckie community technology make painful budget reductions in this country, they college made a DVD depicting their crumbling school. should be looking to their budgets also. I have to say The Labour Government gave them £6 million. that one thing we will not be doing is giving up part of Morally and legally their legitimate expectation was to the rebate for absolutely nothing in return, which is have their funding continued, so please will the Prime what Labour did. Minister ask the Secretary of State for Education to take some time out from his “I am sorry” tour of the Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Phase 2 of the country to meet me in Walsall South and explain his Ministry of Defence strategic defence review is currently decision—the fifth version—to Joseph Leckie school, reporting back. Under consideration for closure and and also to Alumwell business and enterprise college? cutback in Scotland are two of three airbases, the only Royal Marine base in the country, minesweepers on the The Prime Minister: I am sure that my right hon. Clyde and aircraft carrier contracts—and that is before Friend will be happy to meet the hon. Lady, whom we we even get to the Army. We expect regimental and should all welcome to this House. Presumably, she has battalion amalgamations and the remaining command come here to keep an eye on her brother and to see what functions at Cragiehall to go, and there is also the he has been up to. Let me just say this about the apology question of the future of Fort George and the Territorial tour. I think there is something quite refreshing about a Army network. Does the Prime Minister not understand Minister who makes a mistake, comes to the Dispatch that this is a wholesale destruction of conventional Box and makes an apology. [Interruption.] They have defence capability in Scotland? got their hands in the air—the right hon. Member for The Prime Minister: Obviously, we have to have a Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) has got his hand in the defence review, as the Opposition recognise. I always air. Can anyone put their hand up if they ever remember find the position of the Scottish National party on this him apologising for anything, ever? He can start by quite confusing. I did not think that the SNP was in apologising for the fact that for the last three years, he favour of having a British Army, a Royal Air Force or has been telling us that the right hon. Member for the British Navy. Perhaps if the policy has changed— Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) is actually the [Interruption.] What we will be having is a defence best thing since white sliced bread, and now we are review, and if the hon. Gentleman wants to make a being told that he is mad, bad and dangerous. submission to it he is very welcome to do so. I am sure it will be taken extremely seriously. Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): The BBC Trust has described BBC 1 and BBC 2 as boring. Q6. [8057] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): As Does my right hon. Friend agree that the gaiety of the far as I am aware, it is not standard practice in the nation would be immeasurably enhanced by the televising public sector for workers to fund and equip their offices of a 17-part psychodrama called “New Labour”, with out of their own pockets, and then to negotiate a Lord Mandelson playing himself? bureaucratic obstacle course in order to get the money back—if they are lucky. Can the Prime Minister tell us The Prime Minister: I think— whether he thinks this a good system for Members of Parliament, or whether it is undermining efforts of Mr Speaker: Order. Much as it might be fascinating MPs in all parts of this House, who want to offer a to hear the Prime Minister’s reply, I do not think it is a good service to their constituents? matter of Government responsibility at all. Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Q4. [8055] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Taking account of the measures in the Budget and the briefing The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend asks a popular the Prime Minister has received from the Treasury, and well-placed question—[Interruption.] I will answer does he believe that unemployment in the north of him seriously; I think it is important. What we wanted England in 12 months’ time will be higher or lower? to have and what is necessary is a properly transparent system, a system with proper rules and limits which the The Prime Minister: What you can see from the public would have confidence in, but what we do not Office for Budget Responsibility forecast is that, according need is an overly bureaucratic and very costly system. I to it, there will be a fall in unemployment in every year think all those in the Independent Parliamentary Standards during this Parliament. That is because, like others—like Authority need to get a grip of what they are doing, and the OECD, which made it so clear yesterday that the get a grip of it very fast. 947 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 948

David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): May I, along The Prime Minister: I can absolutely give the hon. with my colleagues on these Benches, pay tribute to Gentleman that assurance. We support the national those who have lost their lives in recent days in minimum wage, we support its regular updating and Afghanistan—I join the Prime Minister in that—and to that is one of the many good things set out in our the police officers in Belfast who have been injured? coalition agreement. May I specifically mention a Gurkha who lived in my constituency and was killed, tragically, over the past Q9. [8060] Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): days? I visited his home last night, speaking at length to In south Acton, the Acton Community Forum is his family and, in particular, his father. They were very piloting an extremely good scheme called “Generations proud of the fact that he had achieved so much in his Together”,whichisallaboutencouragingeachgeneration short life. His ambition was to be an officer with the to pass on its own skill sets to each other; basically, it is Gurkhas. He was commissioned this year, he went to about getting the community to help itself. Does the Afghanistan in March and he died in July. Can the Prime Minister agree that this is an excellent example of Prime Minister assure this House that whatever investigation what the big society is all about? is held will be thorough and that details will be given to The Prime Minister: I agree. I have to say to Labour the family? May I say in closing that this House will Members, who sort of sigh every time an hon. Member know that, when it comes to the Crown forces, young actually mentions a worthwhile charity, voluntary body men and women of Northern Ireland have never been or project that is doing something in their communities, found wanting? Today, we have lost another son and we that we are going to change the way we do politics in hope it is the last. this country. Instead of endlessly talking about the money that goes in, let us talk about the outcomes that The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman pays a very come out. I think that that is a better way of doing eloquent tribute to his constituent. He is right to say things. that we need an inquiry that gets to the bottom of what happened in this tragic, although I believe isolated, Q10. [8061] Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): case. There is nothing you can say to parents who have I am delighted to report that GCSE pass rates have lost a child that will help with the sense of grief and doubled in Westminster in recent years and four loss; there is nothing you can do. But it is important brand-new schools have opened. This week, the Prime that they get the information to try to help achieve some Minister was quoted as saying that he was “terrified” of sort of closure on what has happened. That is one of his children attending a local school. May I ask him to the many reasons why this review will be so important. swallow his fear and instead join me in acknowledging Let me just say that there are now about 5,000 British the enormous progress that has been made, particularly troops that are fully partnered with Afghan forces, in London’s secondary schools, in recent years? working together day and night. When we hear their stories about how well they are working together it does The Prime Minister: I am pleased to say that my gives us hope that we are building an Afghan army that children attend a local school in Conservative-controlled we will be able to hand over to. We must not lose sight Kensington and the other part of her constituency, of that, in spite of all the difficulties. Conservative-controlled Westminster. Of course there are good schools in London and of course progress is Q7. [8058] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): being made, but like any parent looking at the state of Three years ago, the Conservative council in my secondary education, you want to know that there are constituency recognised the need for a new primary going to be really good schools, really good choice and school. It identified the site and, having sorted out the a diversity of provision. That is what we are going to financial mess that the Labour council had left before ensure and I hope that the hon. Lady will vote for it it, committed the funding. Despite being left the funds, when the time comes. the Labour council leader is now publicly failing to Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): commit to building this school. Does the Prime Is the Prime Minister aware that I and colleagues had Minister agree that my constituents should conclude the privilege of a visit this week from the Royal Anglian that this is the reality: the Labour party is saying one Regiment. Will he join us in thanking them for their thing and doing another, and is endangering amazing professionalism and for the work that they do schoolchildren’s education? for us? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes not only The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that. The an important local point, but a very important national regiment’s members have served in Afghanistan on a point, which is that Building Schools for the Future did number of occasions and on one occasion I met them in nothing for primary schools. There is actually a growing Helmand province and heard them speak about some problem of a shortage of primary school places, which of the incredibly difficult decisions that they had to take was not being addressed by the previous Government and some of the very brave things they had done. We but which will be addressed by this Government. should recognise that we have been in Afghanistan in one form or another since 2001. Many soldiers are Q8. [8059] John Robertson (Glasgow North West) going back again and again. That puts pressure on them (Lab): The Prime Minister will be aware of members of and on their families and it just means that we need to his own party using parliamentary rules to try to redouble everything we do to support their families and undermine the national minimum wage. Can he, here our brave servicemen and women. and now, dedicate himself to maintaining the national minimum wage, not only ensuring its support, but Q11. [8062] Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) ensuring that it increases in line with inflation in the (Lab): Dr Kieran Breen, the director of Parkinson’s years to come? UK, has been on the BBC this morning discussing the 949 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 950 start of a clinical study in Oxford using skin cells. All of has a large rural Scottish constituency. I know that the us in this House want to see ongoing research into issue will be considered seriously and that discussions finding answers to degenerative conditions such as will be had. When we have something to say, we will Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s. Will the Prime Minister come back and talk about it. assure the House that despite the global economic conditions this Government will not cut back on their Q14. [8065] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): In the funding for medical research? week of the NHS White Paper, will the Prime Minister resist calls—wherever they come from—to cut the NHS The Prime Minister: No one wants to see reductions budget? in those programmes—they are very important—but, like everything else there is a comprehensive spending review—[Interruption.] It is no good Opposition Members The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely making that point—whoever was standing here right good point. Yes, we have to take difficult decisions but, now would have to look at public spending programmes when we look at the NHS, we know that there are and make sense of them. I have to say that they should expensive drugs coming down the track, expensive perhaps listen to the speech that the shadow Trade and treatments and an ageing population, and more children Industry Secretary is going to make this afternoon. born with disabilities and living for longer. There are Quite rightly, he is going to say that fighting cost pressures on our NHS that mean that even small “the cuts is a tempting slogan in opposition…But if that is all we real-terms increases will be an heroic thing to achieve. I are saying the conclusion will be drawn that we are wishing the think that the Opposition have completely lost touch problem away.” and lost their senses to think that you can somehow cut We have a new problem in British politics. They are the NHS. called “deficit-deniers” and I am looking at a whole row of them. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): As a former head teacher, I endorse the commitment given by the Prime Q12. [8063] Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Minister to improving discipline in schools and in education Does my right hon. Friend agree that the case of more widely. May I ask him what special measures he, Mr Nur and his family, who have moved into a £2,000 as the Head of Government, plans to invoke in relation a week house in Kensington at taxpayers’ expense, is to his Education Secretary, who has failed to do his exactly the sort of thing that the coalition was elected homework properly on five occasions in the past week? to fight against? The Prime Minister: In the week of the Mandelson The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely memoirs—to get a lecture on ill discipline. We used to right. The housing benefit situation, particularly in say that the Labour Government were dysfunctional central London, has got completely out of control. The and shambolic and that they were all at each other’s idea that a family should be able to claim £2,000 a week throats, but we were wrong—it was much, much worse for their house is an outrage for people who go to work than that. every day, pay their taxes and try to do the right thing for their family. That is why we will cap housing benefit levels from April next year so that the maximum that Q15. [8066] James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): can be claimed will be £400 a week for a property with The Prime Minister will be aware that former Para and more than four bedrooms. Many people on ordinary Teessider, Anthony Malone, has languished in an incomes will look even at that £400 and find it to be Afghan jail for more than two years and is still being very generous help for people. Every penny of that held in lieu of payment of an outstanding debt. Given comes out of hard-earned taxes. that his imprisonment is potentially in breach of international law, will the Prime Minister put pressure Q13. [8064] Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan on the Afghan Government to secure Mr Malone’s an Iar) (SNP): The coalition agreement mentions rural release? fuel derogations. My constituents in the Outer Hebrides pay more fuel tax per litre than just about The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely anybody in the UK. However, there is no mention of right to raise this case, which is worrying. I can assure VAT in the coalition agreement, and that will affect him and Anthony Malone’s family and friends that the road transportation. Is it not reasonable, surely, to ask British embassy continues to raise this case with the for a rural fuel derogation before January, when the Afghan authorities. The ambassador in Kabul has raised VAT rise comes in, in the interests of respect and the case with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and we fairness? are in discussions at the moment with the Afghan Attorney-General about why Anthony Malone continues The Prime Minister: We are looking at the rural fuel to be detained. If my hon. Friend keeps in touch with issue and obviously the hon. Gentleman has a friend, as my office, we will keep in touch about developments in it were, in the Treasury in the Chief Secretary, who also this case. 951 14 JULY 2010 Points of Order 952

Points of Order demonstration by stop the trafficking. Is it not amazing that so many people can be so bothered and concerned about 20th-century slavery that they can actually stop 12.31 pm the traffic outside Parliament? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have made it very clear on a Mr Speaker: It is, indeed, amazing and it also enables number of occasions that Ministers should make statements the hon. Gentleman, whose work on trafficking is respected to the House first, rather than making them elsewhere. across the House, to underline the importance of the In response to a number of recent questions, the Secretary campaign. That is precisely what he has done and I have of State for Defence has refused to say what the outcome a feeling that he will share the Hansard report of his of the review of the costs of Trident is and has urged point of order with people in Wellingborough. Members to wait until the statement at the end of the month. However, today’s Guardian reports that, in a Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): On a speech yesterday at Chatham House, he decided, point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue of the five lists unannounced, that Trident was “pretty good value” for and the mishandling of the Building Schools for the money, giving an indication that the review is of no Future announcement was raised at Prime Minister’s consequence whatever and therefore that he has already questions. Youwill know that, on Sunday, I wrote to the made up his mind on this matter. Is there any way in Secretary of State for Education and copied the letter to which you can ask him to make it clear to the House you, to ask for a clear answer to the question of whether, whether his answers mean anything or not? a week ago, before the first list was published, the Secretary of State was advised by his departmental Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his officials not to proceed on this course but to consult point of order, but I am not sure that there is a matter local authorities instead, because of the danger of getting for me immediately to rule on because I do not have the the lists wrong and causing both confusion and legal material in front of me. However, it does seem to me a challenge. I have had no reply yet from the Secretary of point that he can reasonably raise with the Secretary of State. I wonder whether you think that that is in order State for Defence, and I have a feeling that he is likely to or a gross discourtesy both to you and myself. do so sooner, rather than later. Mr Speaker: I do not think that there is anything Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): On a point of order, disorderly at all at this stage, but if the right hon. Mr Speaker. Can I ask you, and, as he is in his place, the Gentleman is dissatisfied by the absence of a reply to Leader of the House, to look into something that has his letter, it is perfectly open to him to table questions to come to light this morning? I have inquired at the Public inquire when he can expect a reply. I have a feeling that Bill Office about the procedure regarding the Academies that device, and possibly other parliamentary devices, Bill next week and it appears that amendments for will spring into the right hon. Gentleman’s fertile mind. Committee are to be tabled after Second Reading, but as the first day of Committee is next Wednesday, Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of amendments from Front Benchers have to be given to order, Mr Speaker. May I thank the Prime Minister for the Clerk at the Table of the House at 10 o’clock on restoring to its proper place the reading of the names of Monday. They will then have to be checked in the the fallen in Afghanistan? As you know, that has not House and if there are any technical issues, there will be happened in the past three weeks, and there was considerable a problem. This system means that if any Government, unhappiness because the names were read out at other Opposition or other Back Benchers decide during Second times. Can we look forward in future to the names of Reading that they want to table an amendment, they those who, sadly, will fall in the next few weeks being would have to know that they had to do so at 10 o’clock, read out at a time of the maximum attendance of MPs before the closing of the House at 10.45 pm, or whenever and the maximum attention on the House from outside? the business finishes. Is it not an extraordinary way of running business to say that people have to table Mr Speaker: The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s amendments on the same day as Second Reading? That question is that I think that there is great merit in that is highly unusual and will make it very difficult for us proposition, which is in no sense a partisan or political properly to hold the Government to account on this one. If there is to be any change on this matter from Bill. what has happened this week or that, it is something that should usefully be discussed with the people who Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for make these announcements. Rather than pronouncing his point of order. I think I am right in saying that if upon that here, it would be better for me to talk to other there were to be a facility for amendments to be tabled people who are directly involved in these matters, and before Second Reading, that would require a motion in the upshot of any such discussion will become known the name of the Government. In the absence of such a to the hon. Gentleman sooner rather than later. motion, I think that the Chair would give sympathetic, and certainly due, consideration to starred amendments. Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): On a I hope that that is all readily intelligible to the hon. point of order, Mr Speaker. We heard in Prime Minister’s Gentleman and, of course, the whole House. questions about the difficulties being experienced in Northern Ireland. May I bring it to your attention, Sir, Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point that the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs of order, Mr Speaker. I do not know whether you are is not yet up and running, despite the fact that I had the aware that shortly before Parliament opened today, the honour of being elected its Chairman some weeks ago? road outside Westminster was temporarily closed by a I am not making accusations, but I understand that the 953 Points of Order 14 JULY 2010 954

[Mr Laurence Robertson] Carers (Identification and Support) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order problem is that the Labour party has not submitted its No. 23) names to the Committee of Selection. I understand that that Committee meets later today. Will you use your good offices to try to encourage the Labour party to 12.38 pm submit its names, so that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee can begin to undertake what could be very Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I important work? beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require health bodies Mr Speaker: The difficulties that the hon. Gentleman and general medical practitioners, and certain other organisations, to identify patients who are carers or who have a carer; to require describes in respect of his Select Committee apply also identified carers to be referred to sources of help and support and to a number of others. Of course, I am in favour of the to make further provision in relation to such arrangements; to speedy constitution and operation of Select Committees; make provision in relation to the responsibilities of local authorities but, sadly, that matter is not in my hands. I have no and schools for the needs of young carers and their families; and power in this regard, notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman’s for connected purposes. enthusiasm to ensure that I have. I hope that that is In April 2007, I introduced a similar Bill aimed at helpful, but his point will have been heard, not least by helping to ensure that carers and young carers were those to whom he was indirectly addressing it. identified and referred to sources of advice and support. I am reintroducing the Bill today because, although some progress has been made, there is still much work to be done. We have a population that is living longer and living more often with dementia, illness or a long-term condition. It has become clear that more and more families are stepping in to provide full-time and high levels of care. The 2001 census found that 10% of all carers in the UK were caring for more than 50 hours a week. Provisional figures published last month by the NHS Information Centre show that that figure has now more than doubled to 22%. In Salford, which is the local authority that covers my Worsley and Eccles South constituency, the proportion of carers providing full-time care has been at a higher level for some time. In 2001, some 24% of Salford carers provided care for more than 50 hours a week, which was more than twice the national figure for those with the heaviest caring commitments. Carers play a vital role in helping with social care. They are key partners in care for the NHS, but their own health is threatened by caring. We know that full-time care can take a toll on carers’ health, so the health needs of carers must be recognised. Carers who care for 50 or more hours a week are twice as likely to suffer from ill health, while those caring for a person suffering from dementia or stroke disease are even more at risk of ill health. We must act to ensure that those who care for more hours than are associated with a full-time job are identified and then supported. Early identification and support for carers means that they can maintain their health, and better manage and sustain their caring role. My Bill would require GPs to identify patients who are carers, or who have a carer, and to take the carers’ needs into account. It would also require schools to have a policy to identify young carers. Some progress has been made over the past 10 years on identifying carers and referring them to support. We started with the first national carers strategy in 1999, when GPs and primary health care teams were given a five-point checklist for use with carers in their practice populations. By 2008, the Princess Royal Trust for Carers and the Royal College of General Practitioners had created a best practice guide and self-assessment toolkit called “Supporting Carers: An action guide for general practitioners and their teams”. GP training pilots followed, as did awareness training modules on carers in the skills for care and skills for health programmes. 955 Carers (Identification and Support)14 JULY 2010 Carers (Identification and Support) 956

Research shows, however, that the work done nationwide support should be offered if it is found that the adult by GPs to identify carers in their practice populations is relies on the caring role of his or her child so that we still inconsistent. Only a small proportion of the total ensure that the health, education and well-being of the number of carers is identified. Even those GP practices child or young person are not impaired by such caring with good links to their local carers centres are not responsibilities. identifying all the carers whose health might be affected Young carers may have a parent with an illness or by caring responsibilities. A pilot programme in Devon with a learning or physical disability, and the parent that was featured at the recent international carers may rely on the care from their child. Such children conference reported that one of the crucial factors in miss out on their education and can find themselves the sustainability of such work in primary care was misunderstood at school. When they are missing from having a lead GP in each practice to act as a strategic school due to caring responsibilities they are treated as figurehead. The Princess Royal Trust Salford carers truants by teachers and often bullied by other children. centre is working on that so that the lead GP ensures My Bill would require that both schools and local that their GP colleagues are on board and making the authority children’s services have written policies in necessary referrals. Salford carers centre works jointly place to support such young carers. The Princess Royal with many local practices and gives them access to the Trust for Carers is campaigning for schools to have a list of carers of whom the centre is aware. I have no nominated lead on young carers’ issues, and this could doubt that such work in primary care has increased the be implemented by the Bill. registration of carers and is leading to positive outcomes. Many health and social care professionals are frustrated “Personal Social Services Survey of Adult Carers in by the different thresholds for service provision for England—2009-10”, which was the first national user different client groups. An adult mental health worker experience survey of carers, found that carers in Salford may be aware of children affected by their parent’s whose GP knew that they were a carer reported that mental health condition, but unless the children are at they always or usually felt supported by their GP. risk of serious harm, the health professional will probably The Bill also contains an important provision for not be able to help them, so the general duties to young schools to recognise the needs of young carers and their carers and their families outlined in my Bill would help. families. Young carers are the most hidden group of A simple joint working protocol between children’s and carers. Research conducted in May by the Princess adults’ services, combined with a training programme Royal Trust for Carers found that only 40% of young for staff, would help with this problem. carers said that their teachers were aware of their caring The measures in my Bill would ensure that health role. Figures in the last census suggested that 2% of all professionals identify carers and refer them to much children in the UK were young carers, but it is difficult needed help and support. My Bill is supported by to obtain accurate figures because of the hidden nature Carers UK and the Princess Royal Trust for Carers. I of such caring, so the percentage could be much higher. would like to thank Carers UK and Luke Clements for Young people and their parents are often silent about helping me to draft the Bill, and Gordon Conochie of the extent of the support that a child provides because the Princess Royal Trust for Carers for his input. I of guilt or fear of separation. To combat that, we need would also like to thank Julia Ellis and Dawn O’Rooke to introduce measures so that schools and local authorities from the Princess Royal Trust Salford carers centre, recognise the problems faced by young carers. It is likely whose work has created an excellent example of good that the most vulnerable young carers will continue practice in identifying carers within primary care. their caring role throughout their childhood without I thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the House for giving any support. Young carers might have parents with me the opportunity to present the Bill today. substance misuse or alcohol problems. The extent of Question put and agreed to. that problem is not fully understood, but according to Ordered, the charity Turning Point, up to 1.3 million—or one in 11—children in the UK live with parents who misuse That Barbara Keeley, Diana R. Johnson, Andrew alcohol or are problem drug users. Such children might Gwynne, Ann Coffey, Kate Green, Nia Griffith, Luciana find themselves responsible for their own and their Berger, Mr. David Anderson, Tony Baldry, Annette parents’ safety. My Bill would place duties on social Brooke and Caroline Lucas present the Bill. services authorities to consider what support services Barbara Keeley accordingly presented the Bill. are needed to sustain the parenting role in such families. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on When a parent is assessed for community care services, Friday 12 November 2010, and to be printed (Bill 55). 957 14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 958

Police Grant Report Nick Herbert: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern and hear the passion with which he intervenes on me. 12.47 pm The purpose of damping was to ensure that no force received less than a minimum increase in funding each The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): year and therefore to provide financial stability, but I I beg to move, appreciate the concerns about the process, not least That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2010-11: from forces such as my hon. Friend’s in Northamptonshire, Amending Report 2010-11 (House of Commons Paper No. 47), which feel that they have lost out by subsidising others. which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved. It has been the intention for some time—it was the The Government’s top priority is to reduce the intention of the previous Government—to remove the unprecedented budget deficit that this country faces. As damping mechanism, and I shall look again at those a first step towards achieving that aim, the Chancellor issues and the position of individual forces once we of the Exchequer announced on 24 May a £6 billion know the situation in the spending review, to which I package of savings across the public sector. The Home shall come. I shall try to ensure fairness, but I should Office share of this spending reduction is £367 million. say to my hon. Friend and to right hon. and hon. In order to minimise the impact on the police service, Members from all parts of the House that there is no the Home Office has cut a greater than proportionate pot of gold or easy solution to the situation that all share of its central budget by bearing down significantly forces currently face and will face. Whatever the funding on overheads and reducing waste, including cuts to formula and the adjustments, we and every force will all consultancy services, marketing costs and travel. National have to make significant savings, and I should not policing organisations have been required to make pretend otherwise to my hon. Friend. significant savings too. For example, the National Policing Improvement Agency will make a saving of £40 million Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does this year, on top of a £73 million saving already planned the right hon. Gentleman accept that in constituencies for this year. That is a greater proportionate cut than we such as mine, where the police are already having to are asking police forces to make. make efficiencies, these further efficiencies—of £6 million However, the police account for well over half of throughout Wales, I think—will inevitably lead to cuts Home Office spending, so we cannot make the necessary in front-line policing, and that, alongside cuts in education, savings at the centre alone. We need the police to which will lead to more drug abuse, and cuts in the contribute to the drive to efficiency. On 27 May, I number of public service workers, which will lead to announced my intention to reduce this year’s core unemployment, there will be greater pressure on the Government funding to the police by a total of £135 million. police and fewer police to sort out that pressure? Will I propose that this will mostly be achieved by a £115 million we not see an increase in crime, as we did under the reduction in rule 2 grant, for which the Government previous Conservative Government? today seek the House’s approval. Those proposed reductions to police funding are fair and reasonable. Every force is Nick Herbert: No. I accept no part of what the hon. treated equally, with a cut equivalent to 1.46% of their Gentleman says. We are talking about in-year cuts in core funding from central Government. relation to police forces of less than 1.5% of their Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab) rose— Government funding, and we do not believe that that will mean that police forces have to cut front-line services. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con) rose— We believe that forces can make efficiencies, albeit in in-year services, so we do not believe that it will impact Nick Herbert: I give way first to the Chairman of the on crime levels. Indeed, I should say that the reason we Home Affairs Committee. have to make these savings is this Government’s inheritance from the previous Government, which left us with a Keith Vaz: Obviously the Minister regards those budget deficit. It is our responsibility to tackle it, and if reductions as fair and reasonable; others might not the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends have concerns regard them in that light. At the end of the day, he must about future police funding levels, they should address have received some advice from his officials, so will we them to their right hon. Friends who were in charge of have fewer police officers on the front line as a result of the country’s Exchequer and finances, and who supported what the Government propose to do? the misjudgments that have left us all in this position. Nick Herbert: We do not believe that there need be fewer police officers as a consequence of the savings Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Obviously that we are asking the House to approve today, for the we want an honest debate that is essentially focused on simple reason that, as I said, the savings amount to less the evidence. Is it therefore noteworthy that on 20 April than 1.5% of the core funding that forces receive from the former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for central Government. Police forces can make those savings Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), and the front line can be protected. specifically ruled out guaranteeing that police numbers would stay the same or increase? That is important for Mr Binley: My right hon. Friend clearly makes the Opposition Members to take into account. point that there will be equal cuts throughout the country, yet the previous situation meant a massive imbalance Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend is exactly right. On thanks to corrupt formula funding and the damping 20 April, in a “Daily Politics” general election debate, effect, which affects my county of Northamptonshire the right hon. Gentleman, now the shadow Home Secretary, immensely unfavourably. Will he consider the matter was asked in terms whether he could guarantee that and tell the people of Northamptonshire that he will police numbers would not fall if Labour formed the review formula funding and remove the damping process? next Government. He replied, “No.” He could not offer 959 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 960 any such guarantee. But more than that, we know that Nick Herbert: I agree. Of course there are savings to the Labour Government were planning—indeed, we be made through more efficient working practices. We inherited spending plans—to cut departmental budgets are determined to try to drive down bureaucracy in by £44 billion a year by 2014-15. That would have been order to free up more police time, and there will be £44 billion of unallocated spending cuts. Where did better management of police officers’ time. For instance, they think they were going to get that money from? the Metropolitan Police Commissioner pointed out this What services were they going to cut? They would not week that he had increased the availability and visibility tell us, but the figure implied an average real reduction of the police by requiring officers to patrol individually for unprotected Departments of 20%. Let us be clear: rather than in pairs. where cuts have to be made to police forces, they are Labour’s cuts; they are the cuts that Labour bequeathed Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The right hon. to us because of its financial mismanagement. Gentleman talked about manifesto pledges. What does he say about the manifesto pledge of his coalition Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): What assessment partners, who promised us 3,000 extra police? has the right hon. Gentleman made of the increase in costs to the police of having elected police commissioners? Nick Herbert: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have a coalition agreement that has superseded manifesto Nick Herbert: We will shortly say more about the pledges. The truth is that no Government would now be policy of directly elected individuals. It was a manifesto in a position to increase police numbers because of the commitment that we made, and that reform will be fiscal inheritance bequeathed to us by Labour. valuable in protecting front-line policing and neighbourhood policing. I shall come on to that shortly, if the right hon. Several hon. Members rose— Lady will forgive me. Nick Herbert: I am going to make some more progress, Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Does the Minister if my hon. Friends and others will forgive me. accept that 50% of a police officer’s time is actually I made this announcement at the earliest opportunity spent at the police station doing paperwork, and that if to enable forces to plan ways of managing reductions we get rid of such paperwork and targets we will get that will not impact on the front line of policing. I am more police out on the street and therefore save the aware that forces will have slightly less money this year taxpayer money? than they expected, but this is still £124 million more Nick Herbert: I strongly agree. There would be little grant funding than was received last year. Let me repeat: point in recruiting additional police officers—if we had even after this reduction in grant, police forces will still the budget to do so, and we do not—if they did not have more cash this year than they did last year, and spend their time out on the beat, delivering the visible Government funding for the police in this financial year and available policing that the public want. One paradox will be £9.6 billion. To put the grant reduction further of the past 10 years is that, in spite of a substantial in context, it represents, for every force, less than 1% of increase in police officer recruitment, the public still feel their expected spend this year. that the police are not sufficiently visible or available. It is for chief constables to use their expertise to decide what savings make most sense for their force, but Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): What I am quite clear that these can be achieved by driving discussions has the Minister had with Boris Johnson out wasteful spending on support functions, reducing about the impact of these cuts in London? I ask in the bureaucracy and increasing efficiency in key functions, context of the Mayor having already decided to cut leaving the front line of policing strong and secure. We 455 police officers, and refusing to guarantee the long-term expect forces to be held to this by their police authorities future of safer neighbourhood teams in each London and by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, borough. ensuring that they are delivering the most effective service possible. Nick Herbert: I have discussed these matters with the deputy Mayor who has responsibility for policing. I Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con) rose— shall discuss them with the Mayor, and I have had a number of discussions, as has my right hon. Friend the Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) rose— Home Secretary, with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. They do not believe that the budget Nick Herbert: I give way first to my hon. Friend the cuts, which the House will vote on today, amounting Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) and then to my hon. to—I repeat—less than 1.5% of what the Government Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). provide to forces, require them to reduce the number of officers in the force. However, we will take no lessons Claire Perry: It will not be comfortable to stand up about cutting police numbers from Opposition Members, and defend the reduction of almost £1 million in the as they clearly would not guarantee force levels and left police grant for Wiltshire. However, we can see that this this Government with the responsibility of managing process offers enormous opportunities to improve efficiency. the public finances properly. I am sure that my right hon. Friend agrees, for example, that police forces waste about £400 million a year by not Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): When my procuring together. We have 43 police forces which all local police make an arrest, it takes them seven hours to buy their own uniforms, all in the same shade of blue, complete the paperwork. There are great savings to be thanks to the fact that Labour Members taught them made in police time, and some of that work can surely that money was a free commodity. Police forces waste be passed to civilians. There are savings to be made, but about £17,000 a day on renting cars because they procure we can still keep front-line police on the beat. them separately. Does my right hon. Friend agree that 961 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 962

[Claire Perry] rather than processes, will not only strengthen the links between the police and public but unshackle police there are enormous efficiency opportunities, the value forces from Whitehall’s tick-box tyranny. We want the of which could be about £10 million for each police police to be crime fighters, not form writers. We want force in the country? forces to work for local people, not for Whitehall officials or Westminster politicians. Nick Herbert rose— Geraint Davies: As regards the democratic election of Mr Speaker: Order. Before the Minister responds, these police officers, does the right hon. Gentleman may I say, first, that I hope the hon. Lady will now have agree that there is a danger, first, that they will no an opportunity to breathe, which would be a very longer engage with the wider democracy of MPs, Assembly healthy thing; and secondly, that I encourage Members Members, councillors and so on; and secondly, that who intervene to bear in mind that the total duration of they will be hijacked by a small group about a niche the debate is three hours? issue and ignore some of the important things that the police do, such as counter-terrorism? Nick Herbert: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Of course there are greater opportunities for the 43 forces Nick Herbert: No, I do not believe that either of to share services and to procure collectively. I will say those two things is a risk. In relation to London, for more about that later, if she will forgive me. instance, we now have policing arrangements that Members I promised, perhaps unwisely, to give way to my hon. of Parliament in London find it perfectly possible to Friend the Member for Shipley. engage with, and we have a system whereby those who are responsible for supervising policing still attend to Philip Davies: I agree with everything that the Minister the functions of policing that reach beyond the local. It has said so far: nothing that he is announcing today will is perfectly possible to institute a more democratic in itself cause a problem to the police. My concern is arrangement that addresses that requirement. The important not what he is saying but things said by other Ministers point is that there is an exchange in this regard. If we that will drive up pressures on the police. For example, want to reduce the amount of central direction on the Secretary of State for Justice has decided not to policing and free the police to take more decisions for send persistent offenders to prison but to let them out themselves and to have the ability to manage their into the community, and to stop the police using CCTV forces and address local issues, then the police must and DNA to their full capacity. Does my right hon. answer to someone, and that is why we propose to Friend accept that these things are putting upward enhance local accountability. pressures on the police that are not consistent with what he is announcing? Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Unlike the deficit deniers, the Minister has pointed out that there is no golden pot Nick Herbert: I knew that it was a mistake to give of money. Can he confirm that the previous Government way to my hon. Friend. He must not inadvertently wasted £500 million on the idea of forced police mergers, misrepresent what my right hon. Friend the Justice and that there is a far more efficient way of providing Secretary said about the use of imprisonment. We have the democratic accountability that our police service said that we must do more to reduce reoffending. needs and directing the money to the front-line policing Reoffending rates, particularly in relation to short-term that we need? prison sentences, are far too high. We must break the cycle of crime. That means doing far more, innovatively, Nick Herbert: I agree with my hon. Friend, who had to ensure that offenders can be supervised and supported experience of the problem of force mergers as leader of using “payment by results” models. I am sure that when West Sussex county council, where such a merger was my hon. Friend investigates that more closely, he will strongly resisted. Huge sums of money were wasted by welcome the radicalism in what we are saying. the previous Government on attempting, and failing, to drive that policy through. That is not a course that this The Government will play their part in helping to Government will pursue. protect the front line by reducing the burden of bureaucracy on forces, which several of my hon. Friends have mentioned. Mark Tami rose— The Home Secretary has already announced that we will scrap the central targets, overt and back-door, that Mr Thomas rose— have bedevilled policing, and we are reviewing the nature of force inspection with the same aim. Labour’s 10-point Nick Herbert: I am going to make a little more policing pledge will go. The previous Government spent progress. £6 million of taxpayers’ money on promoting that Of course, the challenge of tackling the deficit does pledge, including on totally misleading advertisements not end this year; as we go forward, it will be vital for that claimed that 80% of police time would be spent on the police to deliver better value for money. The the beat—adverts that were censured by the Advertising Government’s spending review will report in October, Standards Authority. We know what that pledge was and we will not know until then what future police about—propaganda and spin. That discredited Government funding will look like. However, the Chancellor made it have gone, and so has their approach. clear that unprotected Departments, including the Home In place of the centralised, bureaucratic accountability Office, will face spending reductions, implying an average of the past decade, which undermined professionalism real cut of around 25% over the next four years. Whatever and added cost, we will introduce local democratic the outcome of the spending review, value for money accountability. The introduction of directly elected considerations will become a new imperative for police individuals in 2012, together with a new focus on outcomes authorities and forces. 963 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 964

We have been working constructively with the Association that there is a policing need—for instance in relation to of Chief Police Officers to discuss how forces can meet serious crime that crosses force borders—or that by the considerable challenge of reducing spending on this working together, forces can achieve better value for scale. Our joint ambition is to do everything possible to money. We do not support the compulsory merger of protect front-line services. We appreciate the importance forces, as I reaffirmed to my hon. Friend the Member of police functions that the public do not always see. for Crawley (Henry Smith), but a great deal more can Those can still be front-line services, but as I have and must be done through enhanced collaboration. repeated to chief constables, the people’s priority is to The Government have also already announced a full maintain visible and available policing, and that is what review of remuneration and conditions of service for we must all strive to protect. police officers and staff. We want to ensure that pay and conditions support the delivery of an excellent service Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The Northumbria police and provide value for money, so that they are right for force is expected to make in-year cuts in the region of both those who work in the service and the public. £3.5 million this year, which causes great concern to Spending on the work force accounts for about 80% of people in my constituency. We all experienced the massive police expenditure. It is therefore right to examine carefully manhunt in Northumberland only last week, which arrangements such as the use of overtime. We will ended on Saturday morning. It has cost Northumbria provide more information about the review, including police something in the region of £3 million, making a its timing, shortly, but we will expect it to report by double whammy of about £6.5 million. Does the Minister January next year. agree that that is unsustainable, and will he review the initial £3.5 million cut? Mr Thomas: Will the Minister give way? Nick Herbert: I do not think it would be appropriate to review the spending reduction that we are asking Nick Herbert: No, I am going to draw to a conclusion every force to make on an equitable basis, which we now, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. I know that announced some weeks ago subject to the approval of many Members wish to speak. the House. However, there are special arrangements This Government inherited a £155 million budget that can apply in relation to unforeseen expenditure by deficit, one of the worst in Europe and the largest in our police forces. Northumbria police and its authority are peacetime history. This country cannot sustain a situation well aware of that, and we will happily discuss the in which, without action, in five years’ time we will be matter with them. spending over three times more on debt interest alone The Government’s view is that more can be done to than on the entire criminal justice system. Achieving achieve greater value for money in policing through savings will mean driving value for money and delivering national procurement, as my hon. Friend the Member more for less. The criminal justice system, including for Devizes suggested, and through sharing services, policing, is no more immune from those imperatives outsourcing and working more efficiently. If 43 forces than any other public service. can buy equipment more cheaply together, we can no It is our responsibility to tackle the deficit, restore the longer allow anything to stand in the way of that. If health of the public finances and ensure that we are able tasks can be performed just as well or better by civilian to fund high-quality public services in the years ahead. staff, and so reduce costs and release sworn officers for We have not ducked that responsibility. It means taking other duties, ideology should not stand in the way. If tough decisions but the right decisions, and it means some forces can use modern systems to improve business showing leadership. Chief constables and police authorities processes, so can others, and if some forces can show must show leadership, too, in demanding the savings that collaborating with each other or with other local that we can all make. For those reasons, I commend the agencies delivers savings, others can take the same path. proposal to the House. We need to see new solutions, innovation and strong local leadership. The first resort must be to drive out cost and the last resort must be reductions in police 1.15 pm numbers. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I welcome the Minister Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Has the right hon. to his position. He will know that it is an excellent job to Gentleman read the White Paper that we produced last have, and it is one that I certainly enjoyed in government. December, which appears to be basically what he is He has great support in the Home Office from a fine reading out to the House today? team of officials and staff in doing that job. Having got the niceties out of the way, I come to the Nick Herbert: Yes, I have had the misfortune to read crunch. I am disappointed and unhappy about the all the previous Government’s documents. The problem approach that the Minister has taken to the in-year is that despite the suggestion that greater savings could funding cuts for allocations to police authorities in be achieved, for instance through collaboration, it has England and Wales for 2010-11. There are a number of not always happened. Today we find ourselves in a new Members in their places, and I do not think that different environment in which forces and authorities they will realise that this debate was held, done and face a new imperative to find those savings. The Government dusted, in the House in February. We had a debate then are willing to ensure that those savings will be made, in on the 2010-11 police grant. I stood at the Government return for greater local accountability. Dispatch Box when we debated the third year of a The quid pro quo for returning power and enabling settlement for the police in England and Wales. We had far greater local decision making is that we will be already announced the three-year settlement two years tougher about driving savings through central procurement, before, and the House was to confirm the third year on and about collaboration between forces where it is clear 3 February. 965 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 966

[Mr David Hanson] where they would cut. This is the sort of ideology that led to the former Cabinet’s conclusion that the Labour At that time, I challenged the Liberal Democrat Government were “finished”, “futile” and—finally in spokesman, who sat where my hon. Friend the Member opposition. People are looking for an engaged and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) is sitting today, and the hon. informed discussion about what we can do to get the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who was deficit under control. sitting where I am now. I asked whether, if they were in government in any way, shape or form—much to my Mr Hanson: I look forward to the people of Devizes surprise, the Liberals have found themselves in that learning that the hon. Lady has voted for £1 million to position—they would reduce or change this year’s grant. be cut from their police grant—unless my speech convinces The answer was that they would not. In fact, the Liberal her to vote with Labour Members to oppose those cuts. Democrats called for more spending on the police—a She asked an important question about what the Labour point that I shall return to later. Our proposals for the party would do to reduce the deficit. We went into the third year of the agreed settlement were supported by election campaign with clear commitments. Conservative, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in opposition Liberal Democrat and Labour Members did not oppose but are now opposed and torn up by them in government. the settlement that we debated on 3 February; we agreed One of the most distressing aspects of the debate is the grants for this year in February. For future years, we the fact that the third-year settlement has been agreed, agreed that we would spend money above the rate of is known and has been put to police authorities across inflation on policing, health and education, and make England and Wales. Police authorities went into their the savings that we needed through a deficit reduction precept-setting meetings in February, March and April plan for other matters. based on that grant and on what they expected their income from Government to be for 2010-11. Mr Thomas: Does my right hon. Friend remember his visit to Harrow police station in January to hear Mr Stewart Jackson: The right hon. Gentleman is from yet another borough commander about the need moving to the crux of the issue, despite his engaging for a new police station to help Harrow police do the and emollient beginning. We would take his protestations job that they need to do? Does he share my disappointment slightly more seriously if his own Government had that the cuts will reduce the capital available to the brought forward a comprehensive spending review last Metropolitan police, and are probably yet another excuse autumn, and specifically if the right hon. Member for for the Mayor of London to continue to refuse to help Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) Harrow police get the equipment and facilities that they had ruled out cuts in police numbers during the election need to do their job? campaign. Neither happened, so we have to take the right hon. Gentleman’s protestations with a pinch of salt. Mr Hanson: Today’s cuts not only reduce the capital budget but take some £28 million from London’s budget. Mr Hanson: I look forward to the hon. Gentleman I believe that the Mayor is still one Boris Johnson, who voting today to reduce Cambridgeshire’s policing grant has already agreed not to raise the precept this year. by £1.2 million. That is what he will be doing. He needs That means a real cut not only, through inflation, on to go back to Cambridgeshire and explain to the residents the precept, but in the grant. of Peterborough why he is voting to reduce the budget by £1.2 million this year. I and my 257 colleagues on the Mark Tami rose— Labour Benches stood on a manifesto commitment to ensure that policing resources were maintained after the Mr Hanson: I will happily give way to my constituency general election. We won our seats on that basis, and we neighbour before trying to make progress. are being consistent in putting forward our arguments today. The hon. Gentleman is voting to remove money Mark Tami: Does my right hon. Friend agree that from his police force. suggesting that today’s cuts and the huge cuts to come can be achieved by getting rid of backroom staff who Henry Smith: Is it not the case that only after the apparently do nothing is a cruel deception of the British election, when we opened the books, did we realise just people? There will be more pressure on front-line police how bad the deficit was and that the former Chief to do the jobs that civilian staff currently undertake. Secretary had helpfully left his note on the desk for the incoming Chief Secretary? Mr Hanson: My hon. Friend is right. Not only that, Mr Hanson: I look forward to the hon. Gentleman but he knows that some 80% to 85% of all policing costs going back to Crawley and telling the people how he are for police officers and staffing. Today’s reduction, voted today to remove £2.4 million from West Sussex and potential future reductions, will hit staff hard. police’s budget. I look forward to him explaining that, Police forces have set their precepts on the basis of and I am sure that he is looking forward to that discussion. the grant agreed in February, so they will now find it difficult to fulfil their strategic commitments this year. Claire Perry: I have already started to explain to Cutting services and police numbers ultimately cuts the many of my constituents, who have of course been ability to reduce crime. I am particularly disappointed, writing and e-mailing, why we have to reduce the police given that Members called for support for the police support grant. Most people understand that there is no during their election campaigns, that members of the money, thanks to the Labour party’s disastrous economic coalition will go back on their commitments and vote policy. Labour Members have been unspecific about through this unfair cut today. 967 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 968

I pay tribute to the police’s excellent work. They work George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): The right under extreme pressures, risking their safety to keep us hon. Gentleman said that in the 13 years for which his safe. Often, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck party was in government, it took waste seriously. Why, said, they have to deal with severe emergencies. We want therefore, at the end of that time, did we still have to ensure that we give—as we did in government—the separate procurement, the cost of which the Home police the powers and resources to get on with their job. Office estimates to be more than £400 million a year? As a result of investment under the Labour Government, there were record numbers of police on our streets—17,000 Mr Hanson: Again, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the more police officers than when we came to power in White Paper. We considered a range of things in the 1997—cutting crime and making our communities safer. 13 years. In the year that I was police Minister, from last We have some 16,000 police community support officers— July, I initiated procurement proposals on uniforms, positions that did not exist when the Labour Government vehicles, air support and other matters. Procurement is came to power—engaged with communities and helping one of the subjects about which we are very concerned. reduce crime. Consequently, crime fell by 36%. In the There are savings to be made on it; that is a matter of past year alone, car crime, robbery and burglary were common agreement. down. Even in a recession, firearm offences decreased by 17%, robbery was down 5%, and overall crime reduced by 5% last year. The chances of being a victim were the George Freeman: You had 13 years. lowest since records began. Confidence in policing was nearly 60% and rose over the year. Labour Members Mr Hanson: I am trying to be helpful to the hon. fought the election on a manifesto commitment to give Gentleman. I agree with him that there are savings to be the police the resources to maintain that record, to made on, for example, uniforms, vehicles and air support. ensure that they had funding and to continue that We were trying to do that, and I will fully support the investment for the next three years. Minister’s attempts to get those contracts. However, The Minister’s points about efficiencies did not escape that does not detract from the fact that the core grant the Labour Government. There were real concerns about for this year, which we agreed in February—without a how to get best value for the Government’s police vote, with Conservative and Liberal Democrat support—is funding. That is why I referred to the White Paper that being cut today. And we face further cuts down the line we produced last December, which examined cutting because of cuts in the Home Office grant. police overtime by some £500 million; ensuring support for merging back-office functions properly and effectively, Mr Stewart Jackson: The right hon. Gentleman is and supporting the voluntary merger of forces. We got being generous in giving way. He was candid earlier burned by the forced merger but wanted to ensure that when he said that the Labour Government were burned voluntary mergers went ahead. We accordingly supported over the mergers. They were burned because there was voluntary mergers of forces. I allocated £500,000 to no consultation and a top-down approach was forced Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire to consider how to on individual forces. Ten, eight or six years ago, the develop such a merger in due course. I note that the previous Government could have given police forces a Minister for Housing, the right hon. Member for Welwyn fiscal incentive to share back-office functions, procurement, Hatfield (Grant Shapps), opposes such a merger. So equipment and so on, but they failed to do that. That is much for concerted activity on backroom costs. a fair point to make to inform today’s debate on budget We considered national procurement, which the hon. reductions. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) mentioned. I initiated national procurement proposals for the next few years for uniforms, vehicle support and air support. We considered Mr Hanson: Let us revert to the subject before us. I removing resources and saving around £1 billion from think that there is scope for mergers of police forces. As that budget while maintaining the provision of more a Minister, I encouraged the provision of a grant of money to support forces’ crime-fighting activities. £500,000 to help move that process on. I agree with the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) that we Caroline Flint: On force mergers, does my right hon. were burned by forced mergers. I wish the Minister a Friend agree that it was a question not only of saving fair wind if he can continue to encourage forces that, money, but of operational efficiency? We have too many with local support, want to merge. Mergers should not police forces that do not have the capacity to deal with be forced from the centre, but agreed locally. Let us not serious organised crime. We face that threat alongside disagree about that. what happens in our neighbourhoods and on our streets. Labour supported mergers and procurement measures The cut in grant will have an even greater impact on that when in government, and I support the Minister for work, but we must also consider structures that inhibit Police on them in opposition. The key is that we still effective policing on such serious matters. require resources to undertake policing. This year, resources are being cut in-year, despite an agreed settlement; the Mr Hanson: My right hon. Friend is right. She knows 25% that might be cut in future years will also be that serious organised crime often requires a cross-border, damaging. That will have a serious impact on crime regional approach. Crime in my area of north Wales is, generally. I do not very often agree with the hon. sadly, often generated from Manchester and Liverpool, Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), as I am sure the and the forces need to co-operate—and they do—to Minister does not, but he knew what he was talking tackle those problems. Regional co-operation is particularly about on DNA, CCTV, appropriate prison sentences, important for tackling terrorism, and it will be hit not reducing reoffending and investment in police. He is only by spending cuts this year, but by the potential for right on those issues, and the Conservative party will be cuts in future years. proved wrong. 969 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 970

[Mr Hanson] Sussex’s needs were not properly recognised compared with other areas? If the latter is the case, will the former All MPs value the increases in police officers in their Minister apologise for suggesting that my hon. Friend constituencies in the past 13 years. Today’s cut could merely called for extra money? Perhaps he did so, but result the loss of about 4,100 officers from our streets will the right hon. Gentleman spell out precisely what this year alone, according, I should tell the Minister, to was in that letter? House of Commons Library figures. Mr Hanson: The Energy and Climate Change Minister Claire Perry: On that specific point, as I read the wrote to complain about the level of cash that the grant Labour party manifesto, the right hon. Gentleman was had given to Sussex police authority, but he will today planning 20% cuts in non-ring-fenced Departments. vote for a £2.4 million cut. Indeed, the hon. Member for Did the Home Office calculate what his cuts would Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) will today vote for mean in terms of a reduction in police numbers? a £1.8 million cut for Humberside police. I presume that the people of Humberside look forward to that. Mr Hanson: The hon. Lady should do her homework. I have thrown a lot at the Conservative part of the The Home Office was one of the Departments that we coalition, but I have saved my ire for the Liberal Democrats. ring-fenced in the manifesto, and we ring-fenced policing. In the debate in February, the Liberal Democrats did not vote against the order before the House, but called Claire Perry indicated dissent. for more resources. I asked the then Member for Chesterfield how much more he thought we should give to police Mr Hanson: With due respect to the hon. Lady, I this year. Sadly—it is always sad when someone loses think I know the Labour party manifesto better than their seat, but I am always glad for people who win she, so we can stick with that for the moment. one—he was replaced by my hon. Friend the Member Today’s reduction means a £3.5 million cut for for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) at the election. The hon. Northumbria police, which will interest my hon. Friends Gentleman answered by saying: the Members for Wansbeck, for Newcastle upon Tyne “The Liberal Democrats have clearly said that we would divert North (Catherine McKinnell) and for Sunderland Central money by abandoning particular…programmes—identity cards (Julie Elliott); a £28 million cut for London; a £3 million have been a long-standing option.”—[Official Report, 3 February cut for Lancashire; and a £5 million cut for West 2010; Vol. 505, c. 340.] Yorkshire, to name but four police areas. This year will He said that the number of extra police resulting from be really difficult. abandoning identity cards would be “about 3,000”. As I recall, the process of abandoning ID cards is coming to The Home Secretary, who is no longer in the Chamber, an end, so those savings can now be made. I look will today vote for a £4.3 million cut for Thames Valley forward to the Liberal Democrats therefore voting not police, and the Prime Minister will vote for a £3.4 million to cut resources from forces in England in Wales, and to cut for his local force. When he visited west Yorkshire them using their influence so that the money saved from during the general election, he assured residents that the ID cards can be used to save the resources that will be Conservatives were committed to PCSOs and police cut today. funding, but he will today vote to make a £4.8 million less available there this year. The Police Minister will today vote to reduce the amount for his force, Sussex Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD) rose— police, by £2.4 million, after the previous Labour Government increased the number of officers by more Mr Hanson: I will happily give way to the hon. than 100 in their 13 years in power. Those are real Gentleman. Will he say how, when he goes back to his issues. constituency in London, he will explain the £28 million that he is to take off the Greater London authority this In January, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles year, in-year, when his former hon. Friend argued for Hendry), now a Minister of State at the Department of 3,000 extra police officers in the debate in February? Energy and Climate Change, wrote to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) to complain that the funding in Tom Brake: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm the February settlement was not enough for Sussex whether during the February debate he drew to the forces, but today he will vote to cut £2.4 million from House’s attention the fact that the Government were the budget. Let us get some facts straight. The Conservatives understating the structural deficit to the tune of £12 billion? should support the grant that they agreed in February I cannot recall him saying that. and should see it through for the police officers and police forces that knew it had been agreed in the third Mr Hanson: The hon. Gentleman knows that Labour year of a three-year settlement. They should have seen had a structural deficit reduction plan that involved it through before the precepts were set, so that people looking at deficits and tax increases next year, which knew what their funding would be. would have made a difference. We would also have looked at cuts in certain areas of expenditure, but police Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): funding was not one of them. The right hon. Gentleman said that it is important to In the light of the abandonment of ID cards, will the get the facts straight. I have not seen the letter sent by Liberal Democrats vote for the £28 million cut in London the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate and the cuts in other forces this year, and against a Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden. Did measure that they supported earlier in the year? The he ask for a fair share of the funding provided to police Deputy Prime Minister campaigned for more funding forces for Sussex, or did he in fact make the point that and officers during the general election, but today he 971 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 972 will vote to cut £2.8 million from South Yorkshire’s The cuts undermine the relationship between the budget. During a televised election debate on crime on Government and the 43 police forces that have already 20 April, the Energy and Climate Change Secretary, set their precepts. In my constituency in north Wales, we who was the Liberal Democrats home affairs spokesman, are set to lose £1.1 million this year, putting a real strain said that there would be no reduction in police numbers on the services provided. I met with the chief constable under a Lib Dem Government. He probably never last week and I know that not only is his force worried expected to find himself in a Lib Dem Government, but about the £1.1 million cut, but it is bracing itself for far sadly he has got one, and he will go through the Lobby worse to come. today to take that money off his own force in Hampshire. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West On her website, the Minister of State, Department (Mr Thomas), who is no longer in his place, mentioned for Education, the hon. Member for Brent Central the cut to the capital grant of £10 million. The cut of (Sarah Teather), said: £10 million from the counter-terrorism budget is also of “A Liberal Democrat Government would recruit 10,000 extra concern. police.” I look forward to her walking through the Lobby today Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Does my to cut £28 million from London police. The hon. Member right hon. Friend agree that North Tyneside was fortunate for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) said that to have its new police headquarters completed under the Labour Government? It is due to open in September. “Withington Liberal Democrats are launching a petition to stop any further cuts in Police numbers”. Does he agree that the 27% crime reduction that the people of North Tyneside enjoyed last year will not be I look forward to signing that petition and to the hon. improved on if these cuts are implemented? Gentleman walking through the Lobby today to cut money from Greater Manchester police. Mr Hanson: My hon. Friend makes an important point, because there is a link between the investment by George Freeman: While the right hon. Gentleman is the Labour Government and the fall in crime. Whatever on the subject of misleading election promises, does he assessment we make, that investment in police officers agree that there has been a major change in the fiscal on the streets and in other areas, including capital build reality with which the Government must now deal, as on new police stations, has had a direct impact in indicated when, after the election, the right hon. Member reducing levels of crime—[Interruption.] The Minister for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), the former is chuntering from a sedentary position to the effect Chief Secretary to the Treasury, left a note in his that police buildings do not contribute to crime reduction. Department to say that there is no money left? If he had A brand new police centre in Newcastle will help to put said that before the election, we might have had a rather together some essential savings and help the police to more honest election. organise effectively to fight crime—[Interruption.] We could go on all day, but my contention is that the Mr Hanson: I cannot be any clearer than to tell the resources that the Labour Government put in—and hon. Gentleman that we would have implemented our had agreed to put in this year—made a real difference. deficit reduction plan and that police funding was ring- fenced. Mark Tami: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, at Before I leave the subject of the Liberal Democrats, a time when we face massive cuts and with more to may I tell the House what the hon. Member for Bradford come, it is bizarre that the Government intend to introduce East (Mr Ward) said on ID cards? In March 2009, he these directly elected characters, who will end up costing said a fortune but do nothing for front-line policing? “West Yorkshire Police Force could get an extra 362 officers if the government scrapped its plans for ID cards and use the money to Mr Hanson: I concur with my hon. Friend. I have not recruit new front-line officers.” met a single member of the police family who wants directly elected police commissioners. I look forward to I look forward to him walking through the Lobby to having that argument with the Minister when the time remove money from West Yorkshire police today. comes. Chief Constable Peter Fahy of Greater Manchester The cuts to the police grant this year, coupled with police was quoted saying recently: the potential cuts of up to 25% to the police grant next “We’ve got the lowest crime in Manchester for ten years, the year, will be really damaging to our crime-fighting lowest gun crime for eight years. We are really determined as a capability. Coupled with the scrapping of the national force to make sure we maintain that record”. policing pledge and the sustained attack on community However, he added: policing that is coming, I do not believe that we will be “Eighty-six per cent of my budget is spent on people and if we able to sustain the fall in crime that we have seen to date. want to make significant savings in policing there is only one way I hope that I am wrong about that, but I believe that of doing it—which is to reduce the size of the workforce…. It is these cuts will be damaging in the long term. having a big impact on the morale in the force and the way it is affecting people.” This year’s grant was approved by the House of Commons and should be reaffirmed— The chair of Durham police authority has said: “If you are looking at cuts of this nature so quickly, clearly it Nick Herbert: The right hon. Gentleman mentions will affect jobs”. the policing pledge, which this Government have rightly Devon and Cornwall police authority has said that scrapped. How many police officers could have been these in-year cuts will result in the loss of at least funded by the £6 million advertising spend by his 180 officers. Government on promoting that pledge? 973 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 974

Mr Hanson: Unlike the Minister, I believe that it is neighbourhood teams were positive developments, and important that people know their rights, know what the trend has been towards a reduction in crime, although services they can receive, know that the police are on we can argue about the statistics and the measures used their side, know who to contact in the police, know to calculate that. where their local police officers are situated and know Efficiency savings, especially as used as euphemism who their local police officer is. I have always believed for withdrawing valuable services, are never popular, that the police are a public service. That spending was but we are in a stronger position to take those measures about ensuring that the public knew those things, so now with the downward trend in crime than we might that the public and the police could work in co-operation have been if the trend had been upwards. I am sure that to reduce crime. the Minister, when he was preparing for this debate, will This settlement is wrong and will be damaging— have looked at the report of February’s debate. Several points were raised then that I hope can now be clarified. Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con) rose— For example, what is happening to recruitment across forces—an issue that Paul Holmes, who is no longer the Mr Hanson: I was going to finish speaking, but I Member of Parliament for Chesterfield, raised? In the cannot resist the hon. Lady. autumn, we have the comprehensive spending review and I am sure that the Minister will argue the case for Heather Wheeler: I am fascinated by the right hon. the police service strongly. Can he provide any more Gentleman’s latest statement. Surely to goodness we information about how he will push the case for police were meant to be seeing the police on the street and funding in those discussions? going to their police stations. Why on earth did we need £6 million of advertising when £5 million a year was In February, the issue of special grant funded allocations taken from Derbyshire police? If we had had that was also raised and the concern expressed that while the £5 million, we would have seen the police. core budget might be maintained—although we now know that unfortunately that is not the case—their Mr Hanson: I look forward to the hon. Lady voting removal might have a greater effect on the number of to remove £1.6 million from her police force later. She police officers and of PCSOs. Perhaps the Minister argues that Derbyshire is underfunded by £5 million, could comment on that point. but she is happy to vote through a £1.6 million in-year On flexibility of funding, I am signed up to the cut—[Interruption.] Thatisuptoher,butIamsure agenda of greater localism and giving local authorities that the Labour party in her constituency will make that greater powers to deliver services. However, I am a little fact known to the residents of the area. perplexed about why we are pushing that agenda in This settlement is wrong and should be opposed. The relation to a freeze in council tax, which goes against original settlement was agreed in February, when it was the proposition that local authorities should be able to supported by the Liberal Democrats. The House should take more decisions. I appreciate that at this particular agree it again today. I will vote against the motion and time when everyone is struggling financially, we need to urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to join me in the promote that, but I wonder whether in the future— Lobby. particularly when MORI polls, which were mentioned in the February debate, have confirmed that in certain 1.45 pm circumstances people are willing to pay a little more through their precept if they can see that additional Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I shall police services are delivered—we will have the flexibility start with the one point of agreement I have with the to allow that to happen. right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), and that is the excellent work that the police do. He is right that we Another important matter raised in the February last debated this matter five months ago, and there is a debate was linking police funding to the census, and sense of déjà vu about this. However, what has changed—I how responsive it was to it. It has been announced that regret that he and his colleagues have not recognised the census will not happen, so I hope that the Minister it—is that we now know, for example, about the £12 billion will provide some clarity about what funding will be structural deficit underestimate by the previous linked to. That would give us a greater degree of confidence Government. He may also have noticed what has happened that, under the coalition Government, we will in future in other countries such as Greece in recent months, be able to reflect an increase in population more promptly which has given an added urgency to what the coalition in the funding that flows through not just to the police, Government have had to do. but to other services as well. I can certainly confirm that five months ago I did not Finally, it is clear that in times of adversity there is expect to be standing here today defending the proposals more ingenuity around. I suspect that Members on we have before us. However, as my right hon. Friend the both sides of the House might have received suggestions Minister said, it is the previous Government’s economic from people about how efficiency savings could be scorched-earth policy that leaves us with no alternative. identified. Force mergers have been discussed. A constituent My hon. Friends know that some challenging efficiency contacted me to suggest that we need a London police savings will have to be made, and we will need a degree force and that there might be scope for incorporating of prioritisation that has perhaps not had to happen the City of London police into the rest of the Metropolitan before. It is right to berate the Opposition for their Police Service. Another constituent made suggestions failure to acknowledge even a modicum of responsibility about the way in which detectives are rotated. There for the current financial difficulties that we are trying to are ways and means of ensuring that efficiency savings address. However, it would be wrong not to acknowledge are achieved without having an impact on front-line the increase in police numbers in recent years. The safer services. 975 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 976

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Before 1.56 pm the hon. Gentleman concludes, can he help me to understand how it is in these straitened times that the Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): I want to clarify Conservative manifesto commitment to increasing the something about the deficit from the outset. Labour cost of the elected commissioner experiment persists, Members clearly recognise that something had to be while the Lib Dem manifesto commitments have been done about the deficit, which is why we set out plans to dropped? How did that come about, or is it that the halve it over four years and looked at other areas to hon. Gentleman did not have any influence? Is he at all see where we could increase growth. What we have here worried that Lib Dem broken promises are going to is a Government—a Liberal Democrat-Conservative create a broken Britain? Government—deciding to cut the deficit harder and faster. That is a choice that the Government have made. Tom Brake: I will leave it to the hon. Gentleman to In doing so, they are choosing dramatically to take out promote the idea through his literature that the Liberal of the public finances investment that could contribute Democrats have broken their promises. If he looked at in some ways to our growth. By taking that money the coalition programme, he would find that, in practice— away—whether from local authorities, the police or there is no secret about this—some proposals that we other agencies—as they have chosen to do, they put us wanted to promote as a party before the general election at a greater risk, as many people are now saying, of are not included in it, while some proposals that the a double-dip recession. They are also relying on a Conservative party wanted to promote when it was in 40% increase in exports to make up the difference as a opposition are equally not in it either. contribution to growth. That is the dividing line here. Perhaps the reason why the Liberal Democrat-Tory Steve McCabe indicated dissent. coalition wants to cut so hard and so fast is that down the road in five years’ time there will be a general Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is obviously struggling election and they want to be able to offer tax cuts to to come to terms with the concept of a coalition and gain re-election. That is really what is going on here. what it means in practice. I am afraid he will just have to Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I am interested get used to the fact that these things happen. in the right hon. Lady’s case. What she is effectively saying is that a future Labour Government would have Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): introduced cuts, but not quite yet. Then she criticises On that precise point, does the hon. Gentleman accept the way in which this Government have chosen to tackle that the Deputy Prime Minister came to my constituency the debt. What she is saying is not that her Government to launch the Liberal Democrat plan for more police would never make cuts, but that they would not make officers by getting rid of ID cards, and that although we them yet. As we got closer to a general election, her now have no ID cards, we not only have no additional Government would have done the same thing. What she police officers in Durham, but face substantial cuts to says is absolute nonsense. them? Caroline Flint: I direct the hon. Gentleman to the Tom Brake: All I can do is go over the same response £2.6 million of cuts that his area is going to face. There that I gave earlier. First, I am very pleased that we have are choices to be made. We said that we would cut the started the process of getting rid of ID cards so quickly. deficit by half over four years, but your Government are Secondly, I am sure that my right hon. Friend the suggesting that we go faster and harder, posing the risk Deputy Prime Minister would have said something of going back into recession, putting more people out different if the hon. Lady’s Front-Bench team had of work and affecting employment in both the public provided greater clarity on where we stood as a nation and private sector. We will watch very carefully to see in terms of our finances. I am afraid that the only whether the outcomes that you have chosen to pursue example of clarity we have had is the single-sentence are really in the best interests of the country. letter on there being “no money”. That was a good example of a very honest Minister making it clear Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The where the new Government stood and what problems right hon. Lady is a very experienced Member, who they would have to tackle. should not use “you”. I am sure that she did not mean it. To return to detective rotation, about which a constituent contacted me, it may be a good example of how more Caroline Flint: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. The money could be saved in the service. As I understand it, hon. Gentleman will have to look at the outcomes of detectives are often rotated a matter of months before the decisions that his Government have made over the retirement. They then have to undergo a new raft of course of the last few weeks. training for a new role before—literally, just a few There is concern across the country about the months later—retiring. That does not seem a very sensible announcement of cuts in police funding. I have listened investment. Perhaps it could be looked at to ensure that to some of the comments made by Government Members. detectives are allowed to continue in their present posts The hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) has left the so that the police service does not incur those training Chamber. I believe that she asked why we were spending costs for a role that they will not carry out beyond a money on police buildings. One reason why we did that couple of months after starting it. over the past 13 years is that some of the buildings were No reduction in funding is ever going to be welcomed. not fit for purpose. If we are to modernise our police I believe, however, that the scale of efficiency savings force and have civilian staff carrying out jobs such as being proposed is manageable and that it is possible for following up on crime reports by using the best technology our police forces to deliver both value for money and we need buildings that are fit for purpose. It is about security on our streets at the same time. investing in a police force for the 21st century. 977 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 978

[Caroline Flint] about what is the most appropriate organisation and structure at force level, and about the elements beyond We should also look at the partnerships created over local crime that require particular attention, should be the past 13 years. It should be recognised that the police part of a debate about efficiency savings, value for cannot do the job of ensuring the safety of our communities, money and outcomes that genuinely deal with organised neighbourhoods and streets on their own. They have to crime better than we are able to at the moment. work with others in local government, and I worry about how the cuts in the police grant will affect partnerships Mr Stewart Jackson: The right hon. Lady is making a that have been nurtured with local authorities and passionate case, but I fear that she is demonstrating one community organisations. As those partners will be of the worst aspects of the record of new Labour affected by cuts as well, the pot that is available to them, governance, namely an obsession with processes and enabling them to tackle crime and antisocial behaviour the policing pledge. Is not the real issue, and the real in a flexible, dynamic, innovative way, will be further driver for elected officials, the fact that there is currently diminished by the lack of flexibility that is being imposed a huge gap in accountability? At present accountability on police forces and local authorities throughout the operates only between senior police officers and the country. Home Office, and elected officials and residents are My constituents will be keen to know how the £3 million squeezed out. That is why local people across the country cut in funds for South Yorkshire police will affect them, support elected officials, and why our manifesto particularly given the Government’s refusal to provide commitment has been such a success. The police family, the guarantee to protect overall police numbers which as it is called, is hostile because vested interests are we included in our manifesto. being challenged by ordinary people and elected officials. Caroline Flint: One of the most dramatic changes in Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): The the nature of police accountability has been brought right hon. Lady must appreciate—once she gets past the about by neighbourhood policing teams. In various rhetoric—that there are difficult choices to be made parts of my constituency, local people can attend monthly about financial restraints. She mentioned her constituents. meetings to engage in discussion and hold the police to Would they be concerned about the choice to spend account. Information from those meetings—along with £6 million on advertising the policing pledge rather other information about where antisocial behaviour is than on front-line services designed for their safety? If happening, which is collected and captured on they were able to make that choice themselves, what computers—is tasking the police in a far more intelligent would they decide? and accountable way than we have ever seen before. However, that did not just happen; it had to be driven Caroline Flint: I am interested in the coalition by Government, and it was driven by a Labour Government’s attitude to the way in which information Government. is given to the public in order to ensure that there is transparency about the provision of public services. Roberta Blackman-Woods: My right hon. Friend is They seem to think that that is not an important part of making a brilliant speech, but does she agree that what the compact between the people and those who enforce is most important to our constituents is being able to the law. Regardless of the debating points that are made see police officers on the beat, as well as police community between the Front Benches, it is clear from the findings support officers? Is it not absolutely disgraceful that the of all the surveys in various force areas about public coalition parties have not guaranteed to protect front-line attitudes to the police and crime statistics that crime has policing from cuts? fallen. However, as a constituency Member I often find that the public do not know about those figures—or, Caroline Flint: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. indeed, about the monthly meetings held by the police, Fine words about law and order and sanctimonious the activities of the safer neighbourhood teams, and speeches about how we support the police family and who is working with whom. When I give them that the reduction of crime in our neighbourhoods are all information in my surgeries, when I am out on the very well, but if we do not will the means, that is not doorstep or in my newsletters, they are very pleased to going to happen. Up and down the country, as budgets receive it. I am not saying that a blank cheque should be are stretched and pressures are put on the police, the handed to those who deal with communications. The good work that has been done will take two steps back issuing of information must be thought through properly. rather than forward, and that is a crying shame. It must be established why the information concerned is I have a long-standing interest in the handling of important, and sometimes we have to pay for that serious and organised crime, and the impact on that of information to be issued. reductions in police grant. We should view the cuts in I will say this to the hon. Gentleman. We currently police funding in the context of a number of other have some 43 police forces. All of them have developments that undermine the ability of our police communications departments and press officers, and I to do their job. For instance, police powers relating to believe that that is one of the functions that could be CCTV and DNA have been reduced, as has been pointed managed better across police force areas. The most out by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies); important element of local policing for the residents of perhaps I should call him my hon. Friend these days. Don Valley is at borough command level, and the most Last week there was an Adjournment debate on CCTV important public face for people in Doncaster is our and DNA, and I must say that I welcomed the support borough commander. Most of those people do not from the coalition Government Benches for the views know the name of the chief constable; they are interested expressed by Opposition Members on that day. Clearly in what is happening in the Doncaster borough. Discussion there is some common ground in this era of new politics. 979 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 980

We need a 21st-century police force that is equipped their only priority. As I have said, for people in Doncaster to tackle 21st-century crime and 21st-century criminals. it is our borough commander at Doncaster level who, There is no doubt that technology provides a major day to day, is the public face of local policing. Above opportunity for the police to crack down on criminals, that, I do not think the public necessarily care very wherever they may be. Like many other Members, I am much whether it is a south Yorkshire or a Yorkshire and disturbed by some of the comments that have been Humber force; what they care about is that other levels made about CCTV and DNA. Obviously CCTV helps of crime that they do not see on their doorsteps should to the police to deal with antisocial behaviour, but we be dealt with effectively. As the Metropolitan Police should not forget that both it and DNA make a major Commissioner outlined in the annual lecture to the contribution to tackling far more serious and violent Police Foundation on Monday night, we still face a real crimes which, I regret to say, are committed on streets and severe threat from terrorists and from serious and throughout the country. organised crime, which costs the British economy £40 billion I do not think that the present proposals accord with a year and, in its own way, affects every person in the the front cover, as it were, of the Liberal Democrat-Tory UK. The drug dealer at the end of somebody’s street, coalition Government. They do not suggest that the who usually is a drug addict as well, is just a small fish Government really have the safety of our subjects in in a big pond. The sharks that feed that crime on the mind when they take responsibility for governing our local street are living in big houses; they are not paying policing community. their taxes and they are living the life of Riley. They are the criminal entrepreneurs who put the despair on to I intervened on the Minister of State to ask whether our streets, and if we do not deal with the sharks we will any assessment had been made of the cost of elected not get a grip on organised crime in our country. I am police commissioners. I do not suggest that every aspect very worried about the implications in respect of the of the way in which police authorities are organised is police grant and the fact that the Minister said nothing—I the best thing since sliced bread. I think that some do will look at Hansard to check this—about the impact on better than others. Colleagues of mine have worked serious and organised crime. I would be happy for the very well on police authorities and have done a good Minister to respond to that or to indicate anything, if job, but that does not necessarily mean that some he wishes to do so. authorities do not need to be looked at. But what will the introduction of elected police commissioners mean When the public are asked for their view they do not for policing in our neighbourhoods? How much extra always rank serious and organised crime or even counter- cost will it involve? Will someone who has been elected terrorism as their top priority for the police. That is expect a higher premium on the services that he or she because people do not see that directly or immediately gives to the police? What will be the relationship between affecting their family and their street and community. the commissioner and the chief constable? However, many of the problems they do worry about— drugs, prostitution, illegal weapons—are intimately This brings me back to the subject of serious and connected to serious and organised criminals. The real organised crime. I fear that elected commissioners could danger is that with cuts to be made and, I am afraid, find themselves responding, understandably in some with these potential commissioners falling over each respects, to the demand for attention to be paid to local over to protect the most popular police priorities, the policing—which is, of course, important—to the detriment axe will fall precisely on those areas that the public least of the handling of much more serious crimes which understand but most need. require more cross-border co-operation. I worry greatly about the impact on that. I agree that we need to discuss Nick Herbert: Is the right hon. Lady warning about savings, but why has there been no financial assessment the dangers of these directly elected individuals delivering of the cost of elected police commissioners and whether, what the public actually want in respect of local policing? in these times of austerity, that is a good route to go down? I would suggest that it is not. Taken together, Caroline Flint: No, I am talking about the cost of therefore, I fear that these proposals could inhibit our these elected individuals over and above what we have ability to fight serious and organised crime, and also at the moment, and priorities being skewed in ways that make it more difficult to protect the country from do not help. international terrorism. We need to make a better case of explaining how None of us doubts the need for effective local policing. serious organised crime impacts on our neighbourhoods We need bobbies on the beat, and we need civilians to and communities so that people can see the relationship take on some of the jobs that then allow our fully between the drug dealer in their street, the prostitutes in qualified police officers to be out there fighting crime. their neighbourhood and the counterfeit goods at the We need to work with others, such as community support car boot sales and how that leads all the way back up to officers and community safety wardens, too. We also the organised criminals. I think we should have made a must not forget community organisations and groups; better case of explaining that under my Government, those that have good relationships with their local police and I certainly think we need to do that in future, so are a vital source of information and intelligence, and that the link between these policing priorities can be also help to promote what is being done in the community seen. The danger is that that will not be done because to fight crime, as opposed to the lurid stuff that is often these elected individuals will not be interested in that; reported in the tabloid press. they will just be interested in getting easy votes, whereas We know that every single day people feel angry and sometimes we as politicians have to explain the big frustrated—and often isolated—by the antisocial behaviour picture so that we get the policy right. and low-level crime on their doorstep, and that must be That is a credible and sincere thing to say. I fight attended to. However, although effective community every day to make sure that the communities I represent policing is rightly a priority for the police, it cannot be are protected from antisocial behaviour and the other 981 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 982

[Caroline Flint] collaboration is certainly improving—there are many good examples of it up and down the country—as the problems they face, but I know, both as a former Home Bichard report clearly highlighted, the way our police Office Minister and as a constituency MP, that many of service is structured means that all too often individual the problems in our neighbourhoods develop as the forces act separately and fail to share information with young people and adults involved in antisocial behaviour other forces. In an age in which criminals can escape become more hardened criminals, and that hardened quickly across police force boundaries, it is not sustainable criminals at the top end are often behind the low-level for police forces to have to notify other forces in advance, crime my constituents experience. We have to deal with or have protocols in place, before they can track and both aspects. The Minister said nothing about that or apprehend criminals. It slows everything down; it is not about looking at better operational capacity—and in a good use of resources. doing so saving some money along the way. In the case of the London and Glasgow bombers in June 2007, when terrorists placed two car bombs outside Robert Halfon: Why is it perfectly okay for people to a nightclub in London’s west end before driving to elect councillors, MPs and all sorts of other representatives, Scotland to ram their jeep into the entrance at Glasgow yet the right hon. Lady does not trust people with the airport, detectives from London following the getaway responsibility of electing someone who will provide an car were concerned that if they had to make arrests en overview of the kind of policing they want for their route they would have to ensure that local forces were neighbourhood? notified and put on stand-by. Later there was also confusion about which force should lead on the case— Caroline Flint: We already have elected councillors as whether it should be the Metropolitan police which had part of the police authorities, and I think that model started the investigation, or the Strathclyde police in could be improved. At the local level through the safer Glasgow where the case finished up. neighbourhood teams, we already have monthly accountable meetings which the public can attend and talk about It is also difficult for smaller police forces to invest in their local policing priorities. This is not about being the assets that are needed to run complex, and often against accountability; it is about what is right and what international, investigations effectively. There is a case is fit for purpose—and, to be honest, what is good value for investigations into serious and organised crime being for money, which is part of the debate we are having this led by larger, more centralised crime-fighting units, and afternoon. merging some functions or responsibilities, or even forces, could offer economies of scale and reduce bureaucracy Mr Stewart Jackson rose— and costs and lead to better outputs. Alternatively, as Sir Paul Stephenson suggested, we could have a nationally Caroline Flint: I want to make some progress, as I co-ordinated, federated structure for tackling organised have taken lots of interventions and I am very conscious crime, whether led by the police service or as part of an that other Members want to contribute to the debate. extended Serious Organised Crime Agency remit. The reality is that as a result of improved communications, new technologies and international Keith Vaz: I wonder whether my right hon. Friend mobility, serious and organised crime is becoming more has had an opportunity to look at the Select Committee’s sophisticated and increasingly global in reach, making detailed report on the Serious Organised Crime Agency the police’s job more difficult. As I have said, we are that was concluded earlier this year, in which we raised dealing with 21st-century criminal entrepreneurs. They the issue of targets as opposed to cost. If the Government are involved in all sorts of rackets from counterfeit are right, we are spending £500 million on SOCA, but it goods to human trafficking, prostitution and, of course, sees only £23 million. Does she not think that these drugs, and what we need is a 21st-century police response. targets need to be improved if we are to get value for The reality, however, is that many smaller forces—there money? are 19 in England and Wales with fewer than 2,000 officers—already struggle to meet the challenges Caroline Flint: I completely agree with my right hon. of modern crime, and across the board, as Sir Paul Friend, and the Select Committee did very good work Stephenson made clear in his speech on Monday evening, on SOCA. I am very proud to be the former Home police resources for tackling serious and organised crime Office Minister who established SOCA. We brought are “unco-ordinated” and “inadequate”. I am afraid to together the National Crime Squad, the National Criminal say that that is partly due to the police structures we Intelligence Service and the drugs investigation arm of have and a parochialism that does not address some of Customs and Excise. However, things have gone wrong these serious crime issues. Many Members—probably on asset recovery, on which we needed to make more on both sides of the House—will defend their force progress. Also, when we developed SOCA and since, we structure, even though it might not help or deliver the failed properly to consider its relationship to forces capacity to deal with some of the crimes I am talking around the country. It is not just a question of having a about. That is why I believe there is a very strong case national body, but of what is happening on the ground. for borough- level local policing, but I am certainly not The link between local policing and national police convinced that at the force level some of the sizes of services such as SOCA is absolutely crucial, and I agree organisation we have are either manageable, good value with my right hon. Friend that much more needs to be for money or even delivering what we need. done to get that right. The police believe that there are 68 criminal organisations The point is still well made that we can look for with assets in excess of £10 million. These are organisations savings as well as better outcomes, but given that we are whose operations are complex and do not respect national discussing the police grant, we must task the Minister borders, let alone police force borders. While inter-force with explaining how we are to protect the existing 983 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 984 situation. Yes, there needs to be improvement, but we people in the Dog and Duck in Peterborough are not do not want to go backwards in our efforts to tackle talking about at length. What people actually care organised crime through these reductions in the police about is real accountability and whether they have some grant. say in local policing priorities. At the moment, they do Examining this issue has the potential not only to not. At the moment, the accountability link is simply make the police more effective, but to help to deliver the between the basic command unit and the chief constable, savings that need to be found without necessarily reducing and upwards to the Home Office. Whether the right the number of police on our streets, and to become hon. Lady likes it or not, what actually drives local more effective in tackling serious and organised crime. policing is what local police forces have been told to do The cost of such crime to the country is £40 billion, and by the Home Office. there are 38,000 organised criminals and 6,000 criminal I should have prefaced my comments by pointing out organisations. There will be no new resources for dealing that I am biased, in that I made my maiden speech, in with organised crime and even if there were, they would June 2005, on the issue of elected police commissioners, never be enough to tackle terrorism, for example. the headline in the Peterborough Evening Telegraph This is a serious issue that needs to be looked at as being, “We need city sheriff says city MP”. However, it these cuts are made, in order to ensure that we do not was not as simple as that. It is a question of accountability, lose our capacity, which is already varied throughout but also of understanding that the police authorities the country, to tackle the most serious crimes that our model is probably not fit for purpose and does not neighbourhoods face. command the support and respect of the many people who pay taxes and are also afflicted by crime. These are 2.22 pm not just people in middle-class neighbourhoods and gated communities who can afford to push crime away; Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I am speaking they include people such as those in my constituency for what I think is the third or fourth time in a police who are perhaps not on good incomes and do not live in grant debate. As the legendary American baseball star the most salubrious of neighbourhoods. Such people “Yogi” Berra said, it is déjà vu all over again. are afflicted by drug dealing, antisocial behaviour, burglary Mark Tami: Brilliant! and other serious crimes. There is absolutely nothing wrong in giving those people a real say by allowing Mr Jackson: Thank you. Except that on this occasion, them to influence not day-to-day operational issues, but of course, I am on the opposite side of the Chamber. I the strategic overview of the priorities taken by the local remember the debate on 3 February with the right hon. police service—in my case, Cambridgeshire constabulary. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who delivered his That was the problem of 2006, and the shadow lines in a typically amenable way. Minister will know that it contributed, among other It is appropriate at this point to welcome my right things, to the early departure of his erstwhile colleague hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs the former Member for Norwich South, Charles Clarke, (Nick Herbert) to his position. He is a seasoned reformer, whose successor is in the Chamber today. The problem and if anyone can get to grips with delivering more for was one of not listening and forcing things on people, in less, it is him. I also wish his predecessor as the shadow the typical top-down regional model imposed by the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Labour Government, which we have seen in fire control, Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), all the best of luck in returning and in the ill-fated campaign and referendum on the to good health; I am sure I speak for the rest of the question of a regional assembly in the north-east. House in that respect. There are a number of key strategic issues that this The key word in this debate is legacy: the legacy of Government are tackling head on. They are focusing, the fiscal disaster we inherited from the previous Labour for example, on the efficiency and efficacy of what is Government on 6 May. The shadow Minister made a actually done on the ground. Only 14% of police time is good fist of synthetic outrage and faux anger at this spent on the beat; 22% is spent on paperwork. One of “swingeing cut” by the coalition Government—the the issues we need to look at—hopefully, it will be precursor to a plague of locusts and all things doom-laden examined during the Government’s review in the next in the state. However, it is actually a funding cut in-year few months—is the inspection regime that police services of 1.46%. are subject to. Not only the police service but local Coming back to the main point made by the right authorities and others are subject to too much onerous, hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), the fact unnecessary and unnecessarily frequent inspection. is that there is nothing mutually exclusive about driving Constabulary and police authority officers spend inordinate forward shared services and back-office functions across amounts of time preparing for, going through and different police forces on an administrative basis, while reviewing inspection, when in fact they should be at the same time dealing with serious organised crime concentrating their efforts on tackling crime and putting through such collaborations. The problem with the criminals behind bars. previous Labour Government was that their approach I must take issue with my hon. Friend the Member was all about compulsion and a lack of proper for Shipley (Philip Davies) and agree with my right hon. accountability and consultation. Fundamentally, Labour Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs, in did not trust people to make the right decisions, which that this is not a question of getting a key, opening the is why it still does not trust them now and is so hostile to jail and letting everyone out. However, we do have a police commissioners. massive problem with recidivism and we must deal with As I pointed out in an intervention on the right hon. it in an innovative way. I should declare an interest, in Lady, there is no point in focusing moral outrage on a that Kalyx, which runs the 840-bed category B private process-driven issue such as the policing pledge, which prison in Peterborough, has been awarded a contract. It 985 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 986

[Mr Stewart Jackson] Mr Jackson: Having run up the largest deficit in peacetime history, and having got us into a position is a very interesting social experiment, and I believe that where we are spending more on the interest to service it will deliver the goods. Kalyx will receive 40% of the the Labour party’s debt legacy than we are on school indicative cost of incarcerating a prisoner for one full buildings, policing and many other areas, it is a little year if it keeps that prisoner from recidivism and cheeky of the right hon. Gentleman to pray in aid my reoffending. own, no doubt eloquent, soaring oratory of 3 February. I am no tree-hugging lily-livered liberal on this issue— Funnily enough, I was doing what most Members of [Interruption.] Well, I guess I am compared with my Parliament are elected to do, which is speak for their hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, whose many constituents. contributions on penal policy I fondly remember, not The right hon. Gentleman tees me up nicely to return least his comments on prisoners having access to ping-pong to discussing the situation in Cambridgeshire, which, tables and Sky television, for instance. I believe it was again, relates to the legacy. The reason why I have Albert Einstein who said, “If you keep doing something spoken about the police grant on a number of occasions over and over again and it doesn’t work, try something is that my local police authority was systematically else.” He probably put it much more eloquently. Our underfunded during the whole period of the Labour approach has not worked; it costs a fortune to incarcerate Government. Our area has particular issues to address, people. although I must pay tribute to the outgoing chief constable, Julie Spence, who has done a superb job, at some cost to When I had lunch with the senior judges at Peterborough her reputation with the previous Government. They Crown court some months ago, they made the point, as probably did not like the fact that she was socking them my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for between the eyes and telling the truth about the actual Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) has, that there is no point pressures that she has been under in delivering a first-class incarcerating people for very short sentences—for instance, police service. I pay particular tribute to the fact that serial burglars—if we cannot teach them to read, write she was willing to tell it how it is, although that may or add up, if we cannot give them meaningful work to have made her slightly unpopular with Ministers, and I earn money and if we cannot give them a position also pay tribute to chief superintendent Andy Hebb of where they feel socially useful. Punishment is important, the northern basic command unit. but rehabilitation is too. If we can give them a way forward to be decent members of civil society—Kalyx Labour’s legacy is that because of the deliberate will do that with the scheme at Peterborough prison—that underfunding, Cambridgeshire has 408 fewer officers is good for society, because it will, in the end, save than the national force average, and Cambridgeshire’s money for my constituents, and those of all hon. Members, force has 185 fewer officers than similar forces. I make in the form of taxpayer funding. no apologies for saying this, because this Government have been in power for only eight weeks. If anyone has to take responsibility for underfunding the police service Caroline Flint: I agree with some of the points that in Cambridgeshire it is the Labour party, which so the hon. Gentleman is making—illiteracy among prisoners egregiously underfunded my Cambridgeshire constabulary is a big problem—but what I do not understand, and and my constituents’ police service. However, because what I ask him to clarify, given that we have tried we have excellent police officers in Cambridgeshire, everything else with many of these burglars, is why they work is already in train to make the necessary savings to cannot learn to read and write during six months in accommodate the £1.2 million in-year budget cut, to prison. which the right hon. Gentleman helpfully referred, while minimising the impact on front-line services. Mr Deputy Speaker: May I just remind the hon. My area has particular issues to address, which Ministers Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) that we are have known about because I have often articulated dealing with the police grant? We have strayed into them to this House. Between 16,000 and 20,000 EU discussing prisons, and although I know there is a migrants have come to Peterborough since 2004, but connection, we are stretching it. under the previous Government precious little attempt was made by the Home Office to do anything about Mr Jackson: I know that we could wander the byways that, or to recognise the particular policing and crime and highways of penal policy for ever, Mr Deputy issues that it brought. For instance, we have had to deal Speaker, so I graciously accept your admonition on that with people who are driving drunk, people who think it particular point and I shall return to the police grant, culturally acceptable to carry knives, and people who before you rule me out of order. do not have insurance for their vehicles. We have to be realistic about what we are being asked People trafficking has also been an issue in my to accept today. constituency, and I shall give the shadow Minister one example of that. In 2004 Cambridgeshire constabulary noted that there were three sex establishment brothels in Mr Hanson: May I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Peterborough, whereas by 2007 there were 47. This was last words of his speech in the grant settlement debate one of the big growth areas in the economy under the on 3 February? They were: Labour Government, before they plunged the economy “I hope that we get a better settlement when we have a Conservative into the disastrous mess that we inherited. Government in the next few weeks.”—[Official Report, 3 February I was a voice crying in the wilderness, despite all the 2010; Vol. 505, c. 360.] issues that I raised. Such issues included the fact that How does he square that with the cut that he is going to 10 of the wards most vulnerable to a breakdown in vote through today? community cohesion are in Peterborough, according to 987 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 988 the vulnerable localities index, which was developed by the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), the Jill Dando Institute of Crime Science, and which who as shadow Police Minister was a frequent attendee assists police forces such as Cambridgeshire’s in identifying at these events and whose comments from the Dispatch the communities most at risk of breakdown, tension Box were also very incisive. and fragmentation. Some 27% of Peterborough’s primary These are difficult times and of course we understand pupils have English as a second language, with more that a new Government are always keen to blame the than 80 languages being spoken. That is a clear previous Government for the decisions that they will reflection of significant demographic changes, which make. I, too, was present at the debate earlier this year feed through into the challenges on crime and policing: when the police grant was, in effect, agreed by both for instance, Cambridgeshire constabulary’s translation sides of the House. I do not know what those on my and interpretation bill is more than £1 million a year. Front Bench have decided to do, but I assume that they However, we received no specific help from the previous will vote against the reduction in the police grant. I am Government to assist us in dealing with those problems. not sure—I am sure that somebody will remind me—but More than half of Cambridgeshire’s prolific and priority I think that in February the House was unanimous in offenders in the catch and convict scheme in August approving the grant, and rightly so. This is one of the 2009 were in Peterborough. The northern basic command priorities of the people of this country. unit has dealt with more grade A incidents in this financial year to date and has also arrested more suspects I am glad to hear that in the Labour party manifesto in June than the other Cambridgeshire command units. the Home Office budget was ring-fenced. I cannot This is because Peterborough is the largest urban absolutely remember the section, although I imagine conurbation in the county. Those are the challenges. It that my right hon. Friend the shadow Police Minister would be remiss of me not to admit that I see the police wrote it, so he would know. I am sorry that the Government grant report and the debate through the prism of being did not do the same thing as part of the coalition a constituency Member of Parliament. Had the right agreement. I understand that we have to preserve the hon. Member for Delyn been on the other side of the budgets of the national health service and education, Chamber I would be saying exactly the same thing, so I but as far as law and order is concerned we—or the make no apologies. coalition Government—will regret the fact that they did not work harder to keep the Home Office budget intact. New thinking is coming along the tracks. It is acceptable, Why? This is a key priority, as the hon. Member for and it is to be wished for, that the new Government Peterborough has said, for every single Member of this should focus on what is being done in local government House through the prism of their local constituency. and with the Total Place concept. They should carefully examine shared functions, shared purchasing and We know that the demand from local people is for procurement, training, human resources, payroll and more doctors and nurses, better schools and more police other such issues, and bringing in civilians to do the officers. Every single local campaign—not just campaigns jobs that front-line uniformed officers hitherto would launched by the Liberal Democrat party, as some would have done, so that those officers can be put on to the say—local petition and local survey shows that local front line. There are plenty of good ideas about. people say that they want more police officers. The visibility of a police officer on the beat is the absolute We all regret the fact that the budget has to be sign that the public are being protected. Anything that reduced, and we know the reasons for that. My hon. cuts into that budget and prevents the reality of the Friends will doubtless rehearse those arguments in respect local police officer on the beat will cause each and every of their local police authorities before the end of this Member of this House some pain. debate. I do not like to say it, but I will be accepting the argument of the Government that this has to be done Clearly, Opposition Members will feel some pain and that we have no choice. But it is my belief that when because Ministers and Government Members will always we have got the fiscal deficit under control, and when say, “Well, this is because of the shadow Chief Secretary’s we are in a position really to tackle these issues after letter, so we have to do all this.” Looking around the four years of innovative thinking in terms of working Chamber, I think that I might have been here longer together across police authorities and having new police than anyone else who is present—although not longer commissioners who focus principally on local people’s than every Member put together—and one thing that I priorities, we will be in a position to deliver a better remember and that Members should remember as elected police service at lower cost for our constituents. That is representatives is that, ultimately, memories are quite what they elected us to do. short. Over a certain period, one can use the mantra, “They left us with no money”—eight weeks is not long enough not to use it—but by the end of the year local 2.40 pm people will be very frustrated when they pick up their Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is always a pleasure phones and the police officers they want are not there. to follow the thoughtful speeches of the hon. Member That was why I was so pleased to hear the commitment for Peterborough (Mr Jackson). We all thought that his made from the Dispatch Box this afternoon by the ambition in life was to be the Member of Parliament for Police Minister: he anticipates that, notwithstanding his city, but now we know that he really wants to be the the reduction in the police grant, the number of police sheriff of Peterborough. Whether he goes and hugs officers in front-line services will remain intact. Of those trees is another matter, but the constituency angle course, the actual analysis is out of his hands. At the that he has taken should be considered by the House end of the day, it will be for local chief constables and when dealing with the police grant. police authorities to say whether that is what happens, I welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box for his but I know that that is his ambition and it is a very good first of what I hope will be many debates on the police ambition for a Police Minister to have. It is a very good grant. I hope that he will pass on our very best wishes to ambition for a Conservative—even though it is a coalition 989 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 990

[Keith Vaz] officers hand-held computers. The Minister will not win his battle with the Treasury for more money, because he Government—Police Minister to stand up at a Dispatch is trying to cope with less money. However, that is what Box in the House of Commons and to say in his first we have to do in the future. speech, “We do not want to reduce the number of police We have an investment in this matter on both sides of officers. We want to keep it the same and perhaps, if we the House as constituency MPs as well as a duty to the get those structural changes, to increase it.” As he public to ensure that we work together to try to cut knows, one of the great achievements of the previous away waste. I do not think that there is a huge amount Government was a record number of police officers— of waste in the police force. I know that we have heard 147,000 police officers, 16,000 police community support about potted plants and iPods in certain Government officers and 79,000 new civilians working in the police Departments, but there is always a story like that. I force. These are figures to die for, in my view. Every assure the Minister that in a couple of years’ time, the Police Minister would love to get to the Dispatch Box Opposition will be coming out with such stories. The and say that those figures will remain intact. fact is that we need to ensure that when we give money We must work with the Government to try to ensure it is monitored much more closely. Perhaps there ought that that happens. I know that it sounds odd, but I have to be more strings. The last Government were probably always seen policing issues as above party politics. There too generous in providing so much funding and not is agreement that local people want to see crime reduced, being very firm in monitoring it. they want to see their police officers out on the beat and they want to be able to see quick responses to their Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does the problems, so let us see whether there is a way in which right hon. Gentleman agree that it is a question not just we can help the Government to do that. Tomorrow, the of pot plants and mood music, but of the fact that Home Secretary is coming to give evidence to the Select police forces in England and Wales have to deal with Committee—it will be her first appearance. I am very some 6,500 pages of nationally given guidelines from pleased that the Police Minister is coming in two weeks’ the Home Office and the Association of Chief Police time, and I thank him for the speed with which he Officers? Her Majesty’s chief inspector of constabulary responded to my request. That is the appropriate mechanism said only a few days ago that putting those documents to analyse the Government’s claims and the concerns of end to end would reach as high as the Eiffel tower. That local police committees and chief constables. We want is waste and bureaucracy, is it not? to get to a position where we use the pot of money properly and adequately, so that there is not the reduction in numbers that I think will happen but the Minister Keith Vaz: Yes, it is. I do not say that everything the hopes will not. last Government did was absolutely perfect. I have related one example to the House on many occasions. I Those changes that we have heard about today have once went up to Staffordshire and looked at the work of been present in every debate that we have had on Staffordshire police to reduce the documentation that is policing, certainly during the three years for which I required when someone is charged from 24 sheets to have been the Chair of the Select Committee. The first one sheet. After that, every time the Home Secretary is structural change, by consent and not for structural got up, I asked, “Have you rolled out this brilliant idea change’s sake. The second is collaboration. As we have across the country?” but the answer was no, because the seen throughout the country, forces are working together, system worked so slowly. We will expect better from this whether that involves borrowing a helicopter, as they Policing Minister, because he is so keen to deal with did in Cumbria during the Whitehaven tragedy, or the waste. We want to make sure that good practice is way in which the police force in Northumberland reacted adopted as quickly as possible and is rolled out. We do so quickly to the problems of the past two weeks. Such not want excuses such as that it takes a long time to collaboration is ongoing. The third is better procurement, write a letter to chief constables. so that we have one set of contracts rather than 43. The points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member The fourth change is ensuring that we do not just for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) are correct. I did not have initiatives. I accept what the Minister says when he know that she actually invented the Serious Organised asks what the point is of a brand-new police station—people Crime Agency; had I done so, we would have called her do not really want their police officers in a police to give evidence. There are examples of our providing station; they want them outside. But sometimes we need huge amounts of money, such as half a billion pounds brand-new police stations. We cannot expect all our for SOCA, which seized only £23 million, and £400,000 police officers to operate from a Doctor Who-type for the National Policing Improvement Agency, and TARDIS. There have to be police stations to hold spending £79 million on consultants. Those are the people in detention, so that officers can deal with those kinds of issues that we should have dealt with in the past requirements that legislators place on our local police 13 years, but sometimes Ministers cannot, as the new forces. Minister will find, know exactly what is going on. The fifth change is a reduction in bureaucracy. Of course, we all agree that that should happen. Let us implement the Berry report and the Flanagan report in Caroline Flint: They do not stay long enough. full. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) was a member of the Select Committee in Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. the last Parliament and he co-authored the report, In her case, she was promoted to become the Minister “Policing in the 21st century”, which talked about all for Europe and the rest is history. We need Ministers to those things but also about investment in technology. In stay in place long enough to see what happens when the long term, we can cut bureaucracy by giving police their decisions are implemented. 991 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 992

The Select Committee will be constructive and will that in the months ahead, with the CSR and other not just condemn. We are going to put good practice on considerations, he should feel free to come to Parliament our website, without waiting for it to go on the Home and listen to what colleagues are saying about the Office website, with lots of arrows pointing to good impact at local level. If he does that, he will understand practices and asking, “Why isn’t this followed in that the global figures are one thing, but that the cuts at Cambridgeshire, Essex, Leicestershire or elsewhere?” local level will be severe. We will hold the Government to account on that. This is an important debate and I hope that we will The Minister has repeated the words that were used have another opportunity in the near future to discuss at the Association of Chief Police Officers conference all the other ideas that Members have put forward, of 1 July, saying that he wants the police to be crime because the package cannot stand on its own. It has to fighters, not form fillers. We all agree with that—there is be done with all the other reforms and changes that are no problem with that statement—but a reduction in the necessary. I thought that my right hon. Friend the police grant is proposed today, and if the comprehensive Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) was a pretty good spending review cuts the police budget by 25%, ACPO Police Minister, but if he were here doing what the has said that would mean 20,000 fewer police officers. present Minister is doing, I would vote against his There will be conflict between the Government and the Government, because I think it is wrong to reduce the police force, because it will not remain silent, just as it police budget in this way. We need to realise how did not remain silent on police pay. important this area of policy is and do our best to I had only one really robust conversation with the defend it. previous Prime Minister, which will not be in my memoirs, although I have thought of a name for them: I am going 2.57 pm to call them “The 23rd Man” rather than “The Third Man”. That robust conversation occurred when I reminded Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I think we him that we had a duty to respect the police. There is no need to be clear about one thing: if the last Government point in Ministers and shadow Ministers, every time had spent within their means, we would not now be there is some great tragedy, coming to the Dispatch Box having this debate and we would not be faced with and praising the police but then not giving them the pay having to reduce the police grant. As a nation, we rise that was agreed in arbitration. When we are in the simply cannot go on spending at the rate we are—borrowing position of cutting perhaps 20,000 police officers, we £1 out of every £4 we spend. The reduction of the police will have a severe problem and the police force will be in grant must be seen in that context. It is a direct consequence conflict with the Government. I hope it does not come of Labour’s economic mismanagement. I am confident to that. that the police will have the managerial abilities to I hope also that Parliament will support the Minister absorb the 1.46% reduction without front-line services in his battle with the Treasury. I know it is difficult for being affected. Let us remember that even after the Ministers to do this in the current economic climate, reduction, the police grant for this year will still be but policing policy needs defending. The Minister should higher than it was last year. Compared with last year, feel confident that he can go to the Chancellor, quote this is not a cut, but simply a smaller increase. speeches such as that of the hon. Member for Peterborough In times of economic hardship, every area of expenditure and say, “At a local level, we cannot have fewer police has to be examined and we have to ask whether items of officers. We must retain the level and we must invest in expenditure are really necessary. We have to ask whether our police service.” I joined others on the streets of our what we are doing could be done more economically. capital to oppose what the Labour Government did on The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) police pay, because I think that we need to defend the talked about neighbourhood policing teams holding police not just at the Dispatch Box, but outside. monthly meetings; we have to ask whether they really have to be monthly. Has any analysis been done of what Robert Halfon: I am interested to hear the right hon. percentage of local residents attend those meetings Gentleman’s eloquent speech. He talks about retaining every month? As the chief constable of Greater Manchester numbers, but given that 80% of the police budget is police, Peter Fahy wrote earlier this month: spent on staffing costs, which is a huge amount, surely “The numbers of staff in front line policing is important, but one way of retaining the numbers is by reducing that 80%. more important is what these staff are doing, the degree to which they are freed up from bureaucracy and the overall impact they Keith Vaz: That will, of course, happen with the are achieving.” reduction before us today, even though some chief The Government have already scrapped Labour’s constables have said that they will not make police targets for the police force and have made it clear that officers redundant. Under the proposals that Treasury the police’s only job is to cut crime. The only real test of Ministers have put to the Home Office for a reduction an effective police force is not what it spends or the of 25%, I am afraid that that will happen. What I am number of staff it employs, but how it protects the saying is that he will have to go back to Harlow, as I will public it serves. Under this Government, police paperwork have to go back to Leicester and other Members will is being cut so that the police can spend more time out have to go back to their constituencies, and explain why on the beat. That is what the public want to see, and I that has happened. The mantra, “They left us with no urge the whole House to support the motion. money,” is not going to be enough, so we need to work constructively. We need to help the Minister to do battle 2.59 pm with the Treasury. We need to try to ring-fence this budget, because policing is just as important as the Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): One NHS and just as important as schools and education. It of the Government’s first acts was to cut £7 million needs to be protected. I hope that the Minister understands from the West Midlands police budget in this financial 993 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 994

[Steve McCabe] Government are worried about austerity and the problems of the deficit, this is hardly the time to engage in year. We are seeing cuts in police numbers, cuts in political experiments with the police. It is an utterly prison places and restrictions on closed circuit television unwelcome step. As Bishop Webley says, it is “a costly and the use of DNA. I worry about the start that the exercise” that will put the focus on short-term policing. Government have made, and I worry about the signal The things that we have heard suggested in the debate that they are sending on crime. Sir Hugh Orde, the today, such as the suggestion made by my right hon. president of Association of Chief Police Officers, has Friend the Member for Don Valley that there should be warned that it will be impossible to sustain the current a better connection between local problems and how number of police officers under the Government’s plans. organised crime develops, will be lost because we will Far from being fair and reasonable, as the Minister elect someone every four years whose sole priority will suggested, Sir Hugh says that it will be impossible to be to get re-elected. The whole focus of policing will be meet the demand for police on the streets. skewed as a result of these measures. I have not heard a The West Midlands police force is not an inefficient single constituent say that they are welcome. I have not one. It is quite willing to recognise that it must make heard a single rational defence of them today. We are savings in these difficult financial times. Under Programme told that the Government are worried about money, but Paragon, it has ripped up its 21 command units and they are prepared to waste money on an unnecessary reduced them to 11 local policing units. That should experiment while they cut mainstream police budgets. save about £50 million, or about 8% of its budget, over three years. The force is not resistant to the economic Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. circumstances that it faces. It is cutting overtime and Gentleman accept that one of the tried and tested bonus payments. It is cutting its training budget by experiments that the last Government made in Northern about £500,000—not something that, I am sure, is Ireland was the Policing Board? It was made up of a necessarily a good measure in the long run—but it is majority of elected members, not elected directly but certainly not resisting the Government’s suggestion that drawn from the Northern Ireland Assembly, and a it should make efficiencies. The reality is that, despite minority of people chosen by the Government from the what it is doing, it is being punished by the Government community. Although it was ridiculed at first, it became for taking reasonable steps to recognise the economic one of the most stable ways to hold the police to circumstances that we live in. account, because it included exactly what he suggests: The Minister failed to answer my right hon. Friend cross-community, cross-sectoral interest groups, holding the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) when she the police to account on a regular monthly basis. That asked about elected police commissioners, but the West has resulted in crime being driven down because police Midlands police authority’s view is that those proposals performance was put under the microscope monthly. are unnecessary and unwelcome. I have as yet had no contact from constituents to tell me that the biggest Steve McCabe: The hon. Gentleman makes an important priority for policing is to elect police commissioners. I point. Policing in Northern Ireland is particularly difficult, have had plenty of contacts from constituents about but the steps that have been taken there have helped to crime and policing issues, but electing police commissioners broaden community support for the police. I am not is certainly not one of them. The West Midlands police averse to any measure that will make the police more authority makes it quite clear that it fears that the accountable or broaden community support, but I am Government will politicise the police. That is what that averse to wasting £50 million, when we have financial proposal risks doing. difficulties, on an experiment that has no basis or validity The reality is that not only is the West Midlands and that no Minister has yet shown any willingness to police force an efficient one, but crime is falling in the try to defend. That is what I am against. west midlands and public satisfaction surveys are good. The Liberal Democrats told us that they would put The surveys show that the public are happy with the more police on the streets by scrapping identity cards. police response and welcome the greater visibility of the Well, we have considered the Identity Documents Bill in police. I can give the figures for attending the local Committee—the Bill to scrap ID cards is in train—but tasking meetings in my constituency. If the hon. Member it will not save us money; the Government will spend an for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) does not have that information, extra £500 million this year to scrap ID cards. That I suggest that he contact his local commander, because money could be spent on the police. If they spent more it is available in most forces. time thinking about the police and less time pursuing Bishop Derek Webley, who is the independent chairman these fantasies and being obsessed with cuts that serve of the police authority, has warned that the danger in a an ideological purpose, which is their real basis, the place such as the west midlands is that an elected police police would be better off. commissioner—a single person—cannot represent our The West Midlands police are very concerned that diverse community. Far from such elections being an the Government have indicated that they are not likely open step on accountability, they will be a backward to give them a special grant, as is the normal custom, to step and do the opposite. The reality is that this is cover the security costs of the Pope’s visit. Perhaps the simply a Tory party experiment that survived; it is a Minister will want to say something about that at some Tory manifesto commitment that endured, while the stage, but as well as having our budget cut, we will incur Liberal Democrat promise on police numbers was dropped. extra costs, which a Government would normally partly It is an experiment that, in these straitened economic support with an additional grant. That is what happened times, which we have been told about repeatedly today, when the Labour party was in power. I can remember will cost about £50 million—money that could be spent occasions, including the G8 summit, when such funding on policing, including protecting my constituents. If the was provided, but that has not been promised this time. 995 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 996

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I do not know the existing funding formula fully, instead of showing whether my hon. Friend caught what Lord Patten said what each force needs and then giving it a vastly different on the radio the other day. As the organiser of the amount, perhaps to help more preferred regions. Pope’s visit, he said that there will be a clear separation It is easy for a Back Bencher to accept the need for in that the costs of the state visit will be borne by the cuts in theory but then to demand that those cuts do not state and, where the visit is for Church-related purposes, affect their own force and constituency. As a Derbyshire the costs will be borne by the Church. Clearly, I do not Member, I would find it particularly easy to cite facts to know which category specific events will fall into when support that argument—I shall talk about them later—but the Pope is in my hon. Friend’s constituency, but I I assure the Minister that I am not asking him to recommend that he has words with Lord Patten to increase the police budget. I even accept that he cannot ensure that the appropriate funding is received from the maintain the current budget for forces, but I hope that appropriate body and that there is no additional strain he will implement the funding formula properly so that on the public of his constituency in the west midlands. forces such as Derbyshire get the funding that the formula says they need, rather than a significantly smaller Steve McCabe: I take my hon. Friend’s point. I amount. simply say that it is customary to provide a special grant for such events. That is not what the West Midlands The Derbyshire force is the 10th lowest spending police authority has been promised at the moment. If force per head. The previous Government’s failure to the Minister wants to correct that, I am quite happy to implement the funding formula has cost Derbyshire give way to him. Not only are the Government not £26 million over the past five years, and £4.5 million in giving a special grant, but they will make the West this year alone. That money could give Derbyshire an Midlands police authority meet 20% of the cost of extra 200 police officers, perhaps 20 of whom would be Operation Pelkin—to the rest of us, that is the Tory in my constituency, with seven for each town. Hon. party conference in Birmingham in October. Some Members can imagine the improvement that that would £800,000, which could be spent on supporting my make to my constituents’ lives. constituents in their fight against crime, will be spent on The cause of the lack of funding is not that Derbyshire supporting the Tory party conference in Birmingham. I is a low-crime area; I am comparing the funding given am afraid that it is nonsense to say that this is a fair and by the previous Government with the amount for which reasonable settlement, and that the Government are the funding formula should provide on the basis of doing what they have to do because of an economic Derbyshire’s crime needs. We have heard a lot about necessity. This is the Tory party doing what the Tory how forces could collaborate to save money, but the party always does. It has a pretext for attacking the problem affects not just Derbyshire, because forces public sector and the police. It will waste money on throughout the whole east midlands are significantly political experiments and make my constituents pay the underfunded. East midlands police forces receive the cost. The things that it promised before the election are lowest grant per crime in the country—£1,459—while as worthless as the policies that it is implementing now. the Met and north-east forces receive more than £2,400 per crime. That is not fair to the people of the east midlands, 3.10 pm Derbyshire or Amber Valley. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure to I urge the Minister to address the problem. I am not follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak saying that the east midlands and Derbyshire forces (Steve McCabe). I seem to have spent most of my short cannot make efficiency savings or do things better—the career as a Member listening to him in the Identity forces themselves would not say that—but surely it Documents Public Bill Committee and in the Chamber—his cannot be right that we expect the Derbyshire force to tones are deceptively Birmingham-sounding. make efficiency savings on its grant of £1,459 per crime I shall confine my remarks to the amending report on when other forces receive an extra £1,000 a crime. Such the police budget and the reasons why I am prepared to forces must find it easier to make efficiency savings than support it, despite Derbyshire’s police funding problems. those that already receive less funding. I campaigned on the need to tackle this country’s I am asking not for a wholesale, lengthy and expensive humungous budget deficit, and we cannot escape the review of the funding formula, just that it is implemented fact that the Home Office will have to do its fair share of properly. I am not asking the Minister to do that today, dealing with the problem. As much as we would like the or even in full from next year. However, he needs to savings to be found from admin costs in the Home accelerate the progress towards removing the damping Office—and perhaps by addressing the 6,500 pages of process so that, by the end of this Parliament, the police national guidance about which we have heard—we must receive their fair share of the funding and can therefore accept that police forces will have to find their share of do their fair share of tackling crime. the cost. My worry about the approach that has been adopted 3.15 pm is that a straight-line saving is to be applied to each and every police force throughout the country, despite the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): As part of the effort different funding that those forces enjoyed—if I can use to reduce the £900 billion of public debt, Essex police that word—under the previous Government. Following authority’s budget is being cut in this financial year. my discussions with the Minister about this point, I Mr Barker-McCardle, the Essex chief inspector, has accept that if he was to bring about in-year funding, he said that it is his had no alternative but to take such an approach. However, “absolute priority to sustain front-line operational…services”. if we are to achieve value-for-money, efficient and effective Essex police have made efficiencies of 25% in four years police forces in the long term, we will need to ensure and spend just £153 per capita on policing each year, that each force receives fair funding and to implement compared with £175 elsewhere. Given the force’s track 997 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 998

[Robert Halfon] 3.19 pm Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I am grateful to record of shrinking back-office costs, the Essex chief be called in the debate. I will support the Government constable has said that he is today, but with the proviso that we look at the funding “optimistic that we can tackle a £2.6 million cut without taking formula. I am not blessed with the deficit denial that police officers off the street.” some hon. Members seem to be blessed with. The fact Front-line policing is therefore safe in Harlow and in that we find ourselves in such dire financial circumstances Essex, but there is a more substantial question: how can leads me to the conclusion that we clearly need to take we deliver better policing, given our financial constraints? action, but we need to create a balance amongst some There are several strands to that thread, but I shall of the police forces. There will always be strains between concentrate on just one. different regional authorities and regions, but only one If we transform special constables into a Territorial region loses out across the board, and that is the east Army-type force, they could cover more policing duties midlands. In particular, Nottinghamshire police has and offer excellent value for money. That could be paid had enormous problems in terms of getting its fair for by rebalancing our police forces over several years. share of the funding formula. For example, as natural churn and retirement thin the The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) referred ranks of police community support officers, each PCSO to the strain on the Northumberland police created by could be replaced by two or three special constables, the Moat case. I know he will have been grateful for the each on a TA-type stipend. That would increase a expertise of the Nottinghamshire firearms department, force’s overall capacity at times of crisis, as well as save which assisted in that case despite the enormous disparity money. It would also do a huge amount to boost between those two police authorities. It may be worth retention among specials, who are very expensive to pointing out that last year in Nottinghamshire there train, recruit and equip.Specialsmake up a genuinely were 23,122 violent crimes, and in Northumberland local force, like neighbourhood watch, and offer an there were 20,868. Clearly, Nottinghamshire has more invaluable source of community intelligence. violent crime. However, Nottinghamshire receives £141 per For the past six years, Essex police authority has been capita, whereas Northumberland receives £171 per capita, working in harmony and partnership with the Conservative an enormous difference of £30. That manifests itself in county council and Kent police authority. During that the number of police officers that are available to each time, Essex’s specials force has doubled from 350 officers authority. In Nottinghamshire, we have 2,380 officers; to nearly 700. That is a credit to Essex police authority Northumberland has 4,028. There is no doubt that and the brave volunteers who serve the public as specials, such a disparity in the funding formula leads to the often in hazardous conditions. We need to build on that criticism of Nottinghamshire police, which many hon. solid base by incentivising specials to work more hours Members will have seen in the press, and praise for and develop professionally. Northumberland police. Will the Minister commit to Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I greatly implementing at a much greater speed the recommendations value “two for the price of one” in my local supermarket, of the Flanagan report, and the Lyons report which but does the hon. Gentleman really think that that is preceded it, in balancing the amount of cash to our appropriate when dealing with crime, policing, and law regions and authorities. and order? I welcome many of the policies that the Minister is bringing forward. I look forward to elected police Robert Halfon: I absolutely believe that a larger number commissioners. Many constituents tell me that the police of specials would help our front-line policing considerably. do not recognise their priorities, and having an elected I accept that I am setting out the embryo of an idea police commissioner will focus the minds of those police and that the proposal’s costs and benefits would need authorities on their genuine needs and priorities, and rigorous assessment, but I think that it is worth exploring. make sure that they are addressed. I welcome the In the context of unavoidable cuts to police grants, a examination of the procurement process nationally. I better retention rate among special constables would cannot help but notice that after 13 years, the previous save money. Specials also give communities a tough Government started to talk about that in their last year, local police force with full powers. More specials would, and within nine weeks of coming to the Dispatch Box, like the TA, give us defence in depth at a time of crisis. the Minister is driving that forward and moving us in I must stress, however—I am sure that this will please the right direction. That really highlights the difference the Minister—that I am not calling for more money to between talk and action, and I welcome the fact that the be spent. My proposal is about refocusing the resources Government will take action and ensure that we get the that we already have. Sadly, this year’s £2.6 million cut right results. to Essex policing is Labour’s legacy, but I am glad that Mr Barker-McCardle has said that it is his 3.23 pm “absolute priority to sustain front-line operational police services”. Nick Herbert: We have had a good debate and a If we want to deliver better policing with less money, number of points have been made by right hon. and we must enhance the special constables, because every hon. Members, to which I will try to respond as quickly time that we lose a special, we incur the cost of recruiting, as I can. My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton training and equipping another, as well as losing their and Wallington (Tom Brake) asked for an assessment of experience. The cuts are unavoidable and, of course, to police numbers now, and it is true that some forces were be regretted, but they give us an opportunity to transform freezing recruitment before the general election. He also our police service with a focus on value for money. As asked about our stance in relation to the comprehensive part of that process, I hope that we will consider enhancing spending review, a point that was also made by the right special constables. hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who suggested 999 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 1000 that the police budget should have been protected. We force structure that must be attended to to ensure will not know the amounts that will be available for that we have the best possible capacity to deal with policing until the outcome of that spending review, and serious and organised crime. That is a debate that we those are precisely the discussions that we are having should be having, both in terms of value for money and within Government at the moment. Again, decisions efficiency. will be made about the special grants, including those for neighbourhood policing and so on, which we will Nick Herbert: I think that many of us heard the right announce in good time. hon. Lady suggest that there should be forced The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve amalgamations. We will be able to read the record and McCabe), who I am sorry to see is no longer in his check. I am happy to have her assurance that she DID place, was concerned about the Pope’s visit. I understand not, in which case her position would appear not to that a bid is expected from Warwickshire police, whose differ from that of the Government. I remind her that I region the Pope will visit, and from other forces, such as talked about being tougher and about achieving savings the West Midlands, and they will be considered under and collaboration where there was a policing need, for the special grant. The hon. Gentleman complained instance, in relation to serious crime. I do not believe about policing costs in relation to the Conservative she was making points that had not been understood by party conference that is due to be held in Birmingham. the Government in relation to the importance of ensuring Considerable economic benefits accrue to places where that policing serious crime is protected. party conferences are held, in terms of the number of people attending and so on. I understand that West I listened with interest to the contribution of the Midlands police have bid for £4.5 million of special Chair of the Home Affairs Committee. He drew attention grant for the costs incurred in policing the Conservative to the importance of assessing the effectiveness and party conference this year. By comparison, Greater performance of the national policing bodies, including Manchester police have bid for £4.2 million for the cost the Serious Organised Crime Agency and the National of policing the Labour party conference in Manchester Policing Improvement Agency, which is under review. this year. That is more than the amount awarded to We do have concerns about value for money and Greater Manchester police in special grant for the costs ensuring that those organisations deliver the necessary incurred in policing the Conservative party conference outcomes, given the large sums of taxpayers’ money in October the previous year. Labour Members might that are awarded to them. He was right to draw attention like to reflect on why in opposition their conference to that. should be more expensive to police than the Conservative On the right hon. Gentleman’s warnings about relations party conference was when it was in opposition. with the police in the future, I should point out that we The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline are asking police officers, in common with other public Flint) made a forceful speech in which I understood her sector employees, to make sacrifices. We expect the to propose that there should be compulsory amalgamations police service to be subject to the same pay freeze— of police forces. I know that that is a policy that has dependent on proper negotiations with the Police long since been abandoned by the official Opposition, Negotiating Board—as other members of the public having failed to deliver it. I did talk about the importance sector, and we want to ensure that the police are treated of serious crime and ensuring collaboration to deal both fairly and equally. with it. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) talked about the importance of special Caroline Flint rose— constables, and I could not agree more. In the 1950s, partly as a hangover from the war, there were 67,000 Nick Herbert: If the right hon. Lady will forgive me, I specials; now there are 14,000. Some progress has have no time. been made in recent years to recruit more, but there is Caroline Flint rose— a huge untapped potential to recruit more policing volunteers, and we should take that seriously, rather Nick Herbert: I have very little time, if hon. Members than dismissing it, as I thought one Opposition Member will forgive me. I want to respond to the thoughtful intended to do. contribution to the Select Committee Chair. In an effective speech about the importance of local policing, my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough Caroline Flint: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy (Mr Jackson) talked about the faux anger and synthetic Speaker. There is plenty of time, and as the hon. Gentleman outrage that we have seen from Opposition Members. has accused me of suggesting a policy that I did not We have seen not only that but exaggerated claims suggest, I should have the right to intervene. about the impact of the spending cuts that we are now asking the House to approve. I repeat that, for each Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not police force, these cuts represents less than 1.5% of the a point of order. The debate can continue until 3.47 pm, amount of money that they will receive from central but it is up to the Minister to decide whether to accept Government, and less than 1% of their total budget this an intervention. year. I repeat also, whose fault is it? It is the fault of the Opposition, given the economic legacy that they have Nick Herbert: I will allow the right hon. Lady to bequeathed to this country, and it is the responsibility intervene. of this Government and our Members to deal with it. Caroline Flint: I thank the Minister. I did not suggest We will face up to that responsibility, and I hope that that there should be compulsory amalgamation of police hon. Members will support the motion. forces. I was pointing out the problems in the current Question put. 1001 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 1002

The House divided: Ayes 324, Noes 234. Harvey, Nick Miller, Maria Division No. 23] [3.31 pm Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mills, Nigel Hayes, Mr John Milton, Anne Heald, Mr Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew AYES Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Adams, Nigel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Afriyie, Adam Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Aldous, Peter Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Alexander, rh Danny Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Morris, David Amess, Mr David Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Andrew, Stuart (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Mosley, Stephen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Mowat, David Bacon, Mr Richard Davis, rh Mr David Hollobone, Mr Philip Munt, Tessa Bagshawe, Ms Louise Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Murray, Sheryll Baker, Norman Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Baker, Steve Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Newmark, Mr Brooks Baldry, Tony Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, Mr Gerald Newton, Sarah Baldwin, Harriett Drax, Richard Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Barclay, Stephen Duddridge, James Hughes, Simon Norman, Jesse Barker, Gregory Duncan Smith, rh Mr Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nuttall, Mr David Baron, Mr John Iain Hunter, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Barwell, Gavin Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Bebb, Guto Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Paice, Mr James Berry, Jake Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Bingham, Andrew Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Binley, Mr Brian Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Birtwistle, Gordon Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Blackman, Bob Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Blackwood, Nicola Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Blunt, Mr Crispin Fallon, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Boles, Nick Farron, Tim Kirby, Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bone, Mr Peter Featherstone, Lynne Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Bottomley, Peter Field, Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Bradley, Karen Foster, Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Brady, Mr Graham Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Brake, Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Bray, Angie Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Brine, Mr Steve Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brokenshire, James Garnier, Mark Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Brooke, Annette Gauke, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Browne, Mr Jeremy George, Andrew Leech, Mr John Robathan, Mr Andrew Bruce, Fiona Gibb, Mr Nick Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Hugh Bruce, rh Malcolm Gilbert, Stephen Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Buckland, Mr Robert Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Burley, Mr Aidan Glen, John Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Burns, Conor Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Burns, Mr Simon Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Bob Burrowes, Mr David Gove, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Rutley, David Burstow, Mr Paul Grant, Mrs Helen Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian Burt, Lorely Gray, Mr James Lidington, Mr David Sandys, Laura Byles, Dan Grayling, rh Chris Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Cable, rh Vince Green, Damian Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Cairns, Alun Greening, Justine Lopresti, Jack Shapps, rh Grant Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Carmichael, Mr Alistair Griffiths, Andrew Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Mr Richard Carmichael, Neil Gummer, Ben Luff, Peter Simmonds, Mark Carswell, Mr Douglas Gyimah, Mr Sam Lumley, Karen Simpson, Mr Keith Cash, Mr William Halfon, Robert Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Chishti, Rehman Hames, Duncan Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Chope, Mr Christopher Hammond, rh Mr Philip May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Clappison, Mr James Hammond, Stephen Maynard, Paul Smith, Julian Clark, rh Greg Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Jason Smith, Sir Robert Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Karl Soames, Nicholas Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hands, Greg McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soubry, Anna Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harper, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harrington, Richard McVey, Esther Spencer, Mr Mark Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Colvile, Oliver Hart, Simon Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew 1003 Police Grant Report14 JULY 2010 Police Grant Report 1004

Stevenson, John Walker, Mr Charles Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Stewart, Bob Walker, Mr Robin Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Stewart, Iain Wallace, Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Stewart, Rory Ward, Mr David Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme Streeter, Mr Gary Weatherley, Mike Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Stride, Mel Webb, Steve Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George Stuart, Mr Graham Wharton, James Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg Stunell, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Green, Kate Murphy, rh Mr Jim Sturdy, Julian White, Chris Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Swales, Ian Whittaker, Craig Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Swayne, Mr Desmond Whittingdale, Mr John Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Swinson, Jo Wiggin, Bill Hamilton, Mr Fabian Nash, Pamela Swire, Mr Hugo Willetts, rh Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Mr Mark Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Tapsell, Sir Peter Williams, Roger Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra Teather, Sarah Williams, Stephen Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Thurso, John Williamson, Gavin Hendrick, Mark Paisley, Ian Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Tredinnick, David Wright, Simon Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Truss, Elizabeth Yeo, Mr Tim Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Tyrie, Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Uppal, Paul Tellers for the Ayes: Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Vaizey, Mr Edward Mr Shailesh Vara and Hood, Mr Jim Reeves, Rachel Vickers, Martin Jeremy Wright Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda NOES Illsley, Mr Eric Robertson, John Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Creasy, Stella Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Alexander, Heidi Cruddas, Jon Jackson, Glenda Rotheram, Steve Ali, Rushanara Cunningham, Alex James, Mrs Siân Roy, Mr Frank Allen, Mr Graham Cunningham, Mr Jim C. Roy, Lindsay Anderson, Mr David Cunningham, Tony Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Bailey, Mr Adrian Curran, Margaret Johnson, rh Alan Ruddock, rh Joan Bain, Mr William Dakin, Nic Johnson, Diana R. Sarwar, Anas Banks, Gordon Danczuk, Simon Jones, Graham Shannon, Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Bayley, Hugh David, Mr Wayne Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry Beckett, rh Margaret Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Begg, Miss Anne Davies, Geraint Joyce, Eric Shuker, Gavin Bell, Sir Stuart De Piero, Gloria Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Simpson, David Benn, rh Hilary Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Singh, Mr Marsha Benton, Mr Joe Dobson, rh Frank Keen, Alan Skinner, Mr Dennis Berger, Luciana Docherty, Thomas Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Betts, Mr Clive Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blackman-Woods, Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela (Penistone and Roberta M. Lavery, Ian Stocksbridge) Blenkinsop, Tom Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Blomfield, Paul Doran, Mr Frank Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Blunkett, rh Mr David Dowd, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Soulsby, Sir Peter Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doyle, Gemma Lloyd, Tony Straw, rh Mr Jack Brennan, Kevin Dromey, Jack Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Stringer, Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dugher, Michael Love, Mr Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Mr Russell Durkan, Mark Lucas, Caroline Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bryant, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Ian Tami, Mark Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Maria Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Burden, Richard Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Byrne, rh Mr Liam Efford, Clive Mann, John Trickett, Jon Cairns, David Elliott, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Alan Ellman, Mrs Louise McCabe, Steve Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Gregory Engel, Natascha McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Evans, Chris McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Caton, Martin Farrelly, Paul McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Chapman, Mrs Jenny Field, rh Mr Frank McCrea, Dr William Vaz, Valerie Clark, Katy Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Walley, Joan Clwyd, rh Ann Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Watson, Mr Tom Coaker, Vernon Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Connarty, Michael Fovargue, Yvonne McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wicks, rh Malcolm Cooper, Rosie Francis, Dr Hywel McKechin, Ann Williamson, Chris Cooper, rh Yvette Gapes, Mike McKinnell, Catherine Wilson, Phil Corbyn, Jeremy Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Wilson, Sammy 1005 Police Grant Report 14 JULY 2010 1006

Winnick, Mr David Wright, David Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wright, Mr Iain Wood, Mike Woodcock, John Tellers for the Noes: 3.44 pm Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Lyn Brown and The Secretary of State for the Home Department Woolas, Mr Phil Mary Creagh (Mrs Theresa May): I beg to move, That the draft Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Question accordingly agreed to. Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 24 June, be Resolved, approved. That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2010-11: Our country has many years’ experience of dealing Amending Report 2010-11 (House of Commons Paper No. 47), with terrorism. Five years after the appalling events of which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved. 7/7, the threat from Islamist terrorists is well known. The threat from dissident Irish republican terrorists has not gone away, and new threats will undoubtedly emerge in future. Terrorism is not just another crime. Its purpose is political, its methods are barbaric and its effects can be devastating. For those reasons, dealing with terrorism and terrorist suspects cannot be treated in the same way as dealing with other crimes and other criminal suspects. The potential loss of life from terrorism means that the priority of the police and security agencies is to stop attacks happening in the first place. That often means that they have to intervene at a very early stage to prevent the terrorists’ plans from becoming too far advanced, which often means that there has been insufficient time to gather enough admissible evidence to charge the suspects. So, uniquely in terrorism cases, it is often after arrest that most of the evidential investigation takes place. Furthermore, once arrests have been made the police can be presented with an enormous volume of information, which is exacerbated by three things: first, modern communications, because of the increasing and more sophisticated use of encryption; secondly, globalisation, because of the complexity of international terrorist networks and the need for co-operation in often difficult diplomatic circumstances; and, thirdly, the ambitions of the terrorists, because of the need for forensic examination of the hazardous and volatile materials that many wish to use as their weapons. Unlike Ministers in the previous Government, I say that not to make the case for 28 days’, 42 days’ or 90 days’ detention before charge, but because I believe that it is important to remember during the debate the gravity of the threat that we face, and the difficulty of the job done by the police and the intelligence and security services.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Obviously, one understands that there is an important and serious job of investigation to be done. However, this country has a uniquely long period of pre-trial detention—far longer than that of any comparable country. I know that the Home Secretary has undertaken a review of that, so would not it be sensible to give a signal that we intend to reduce the length of pre-charge detention, by decreasing it to 14 days today rather than reaffirming the 28-day order? We reaffirmed the prevention of terrorism Acts throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Every time we said that the matter would be re-examined. Maybe this time, we should do something.

Mrs May: If the hon. Gentleman has some patience and listens to what I am saying, he will hear the signal that I want to give about 28 days. However, he will recognise that, by definition, the fact that I have moved 1007 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1008 Terrorism Terrorism that the order for the 28-day measure be continued for Mrs May: I made it clear to the hon. Gentleman in six months means that I am not suggesting that the my answer yesterday that 14 days represents my personal detention period should change to 14 days today. view, but I also said in answer to him and a number of I have set out the nature of the threat, and it is hon. Members that I do not think it right to pre-empt important that we recognise its gravity in the debate, the result of the review. As I indicated, one option from but it must be met by taking proportionate action, and the review might be to return to the House with a the job must be done with proportionate powers. That is proposal for a reduced period of pre-charge detention, why, yesterday, I announced the inclusion of pre-charge but with the possibility of contingency arrangements detention in my review of counter-terrorism powers, for extreme circumstances, when it may be necessary to along with control orders, stop-and-search powers, the take detention beyond 14 days. We should wait to hear use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, the options that come from the review. That is why I am deportations with assurances, and measures to deal suggesting that hon. Members today support an extension, with organisations promoting hatred or violence. albeit just for those six months. I want to make it absolutely clear to the House that I I referred to the principles of the coalition Government consider the 28-day limit to be a temporary measure, and said that we would not forget to defend our civil and I want it brought to an end once I have completed liberties, but that we take the duty to protect the public my review. Since the power to detain for 28 days was more seriously than anything else. The need to get that passed by Parliament and came into force in July 2006, balance right is why we have already introduced legislation 11 people have been held for more than 14 days, eight to get rid of identity cards and announced interim were charged with terrorist-related offences, and four restrictions on the use of stop-and-search powers under were found guilty. Of those, six people have been held terrorism legislation, and why I included the controversial for between 27 and 28 days, three were charged with use of automatic number plate recognition cameras in terrorist-related offences, and two were found guilty. No the review of CCTV regulations. We will introduce a suspect has been held for more than 14 days since July freedom Bill, adopt the protections of the Scottish 2007. When one considers that in the 12 months ending model for the DNA database, restore rights to non-violent in December 2009 28 terrorism-related trials were protest, end the storage of internet and e-mail records completed, with 93% convictions, including six life sentences, without good reason, and extend the scope of the it is clear to me that the power to detain for up to Freedom of Information Act. Freedom runs through 28 days is not needed routinely for the police to investigate, the DNA of this coalition Government, and it will interrogate and charge terrorist suspects. apply to our work on pre-charge detention as it will to The possibility remains that in some extreme everything else we do. circumstances it might be necessary to detain some The country has not only a new Government, but a suspects beyond 14 days, but those circumstances remain new Parliament. Having spoken to many new hon. rare and extreme, and we need to be sure that the Members as well as old, I know that this Parliament powers are never abused. That is why we need to take takes very seriously its role in protecting our freedoms. I time to consider pre-charge detention as part of the therefore hope that we can today rise above the sort of review of counter-terrorism powers. Therefore, in moving arguments put forward by Ministers in the previous today’s motion, I am asking hon. Members not to Parliament, and work out together how we can reduce support 28 days indefinitely, nor to support 28 days for the limit, subject to adequate safeguards and contingency 12 months, as was envisaged in the Terrorism Act 2006, plans. I extend that invitation to Opposition Front but to support a renewal for six months while the Benchers. counter-terrorism review considers how we can reduce Yesterday, when I announced the review of counter- the limit. terrorism legislation, the shadow Home Secretary, the The draft order that I have laid before the House will right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and come into force on 25 July and will expire on 24 January Hessle (Alan Johnson), queried the need for further 2011. After that, it will be up to me as Home Secretary safeguards, to come back to the House to ask for a further extension, “given that 28-day detention has to be re-approved by Parliament to let the limit fall to 14 days, or to present new each year”.—[Official Report, 13 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 799.] proposals that reduce the limit but introduce contingency However, what sort of safeguard was that, given that arrangements in extreme circumstances. the previous Government used to whip Labour MPs to The review of counter-terrorism powers will, as I said reinstate it every year, come what may? Similarly, one yesterday, be informed by the principles of the coalition source was quoted in a national newspaper this morning Government. Those principles—shared principles—are as saying: based on a respect for our ancient civil liberties and “Youeither have complete security or complete civil liberties—you individual freedom. There is nothing we take more cannot have both.” seriously than our duty to protect the public, but in doing so we will not, as the previous Government did, I am afraid that that sort of zero-sum mentality damaged forget to defend our way of life. individual freedom under the previous Government. It is time we moved beyond that thinking, so that we have Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): In a more mature approach that balances the need for her reply to me yesterday, the Home Secretary said that national security with important civil liberties. her favoured time would be 14 days. We know that that I am aware that in asking many hon. Friends and is the view of the Liberals and the view that is coming hon. Members to vote for this temporary six-month out of the Home Office, so why waste time and expense measure today, I am asking them to take a deep breath if we already know the result? Why not get on with this and vote for a measure that they do not very much like. today, and just go back to 14 days? But I can assure them that if they support this order, I 1009 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1010 Terrorism Terrorism [Mrs May] Gentleman restored to good health. He has many friends across the House who respect and admire him and want will work with hon. Members on both sides of the to see him back on the Government Benches very House to find a solution that reduces the limit for quickly. He said last year that the Government must pre-charge detention, but gives the police the powers first demonstrate convincingly to Parliament that the they need to keep us all safe from those who would security situation is such that 28 days remains indispensable, bring devastation to our country. I commend the order and secondly, that the legal framework must meet the to the House. procedural protections afforded by our common law and by the Human Rights Act. He said, with his customary 3.55 pm prescience: “I hope this will give an indication of the approach that we Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) want to take, should there be a change of Government before the (Lab): It seems that the Home Secretary and I are allies next renewal.” in the debate this afternoon—although, having read her I accept that a small minority of Members—it may written ministerial statement and listened to her speech, or may not include the Home Secretary—are convinced I think that she is adopting the position of St Augustine— that pre-charge detention should be 14 days or less, and “Lord, make us virtuous, but not yet”. The Home I respect that view. It has been consistently argued by Secretary and I have many things in common, among several—a minority, but several—Members. The majority them our charm, panache, looks and preference for flat of Members, however, will look at the evidence and shoes. And we both voted for 28 days in 2005. Neither decide on that basis whether in the year since we last of us has ever voted against 28 days, and we both renewed this legislation, the terrorist threat has faded belong to political parties that made no mention of and/or whether this legislation is being abused by the reducing pre-charge detention of terrorist suspects in criminal justice system. our manifestos. This issue will, of course, form part of the review that Jeremy Corbyn: Is my right hon. Friend aware that no the Home Secretary rather foolishly described yesterday other country in Europe, or indeed North America, that as putting right the failures of the previous Government. suffers the same kind of concerns as we do has seen fit If 28 days was a failure, it is strange that she should to go down the road that we have in this country—of advocate the continuation of that failure today. She is having very long periods of detention before charge? right to do so: as so often with the Home Secretary, the problem is not so much what she does as the way in which she does it. She told us yesterday that personally Alan Johnson: I am not aware of that. In fact, the she was always in favour of 14 days. We understand that usual argument is that the common-law countries such it is impossible to tell what she believes from her voting as Australia, Canada and even the US do not have this record, but this fervour for 14 days has been a well-kept system. Europe is the worst place for my hon. Friend to secret. She has always actually voted for 28 days. find his examples. Let me cite Norway, for instance. Good old, solid, Scandinavian, liberal Norway has Incidentally, the person whom the Home Secretary provisions that allow people to be kept in custody—renewed has appointed to provide independent oversight of the by a High Court judge, who is involved in any detention review—the former Director of Public Prosecutions, beyond 14 days—for far longer than 28 days, or even Lord Macdonald of River Glaven—made clear in evidence 42 days. That was a helpful intervention, and I am to the Home Affairs Committee his support for 28 days, grateful to my hon. Friend. stating: “We welcomed the increase to 28 days and we felt that a period I think that the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds of 14 days was not sufficient. It seems to us that 28 days has been succinctly summed up the two issues I mentioned, but effective and has provided us with powers, supervised by the there is one further aspect that we have to consider in courts, which have been useful to us as prosecutors in making deciding whether to renew this legislation. It was rightly appropriate charging decisions within that period.” raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester This review, like Brighton seafront, has two peers—both East (Keith Vaz). The issue is whether the very existence Lib Dems—and the views of Lord Macdonald are of 28-day detention leads to radicalisation in certain completely in line with the view of Lord Carlile, the communities to the extent that it defeats the objective of independent reviewer of the terrorist legislation, whose reducing the terrorist threat. The Home Office community work the Home Secretary rightly described yesterday as impact study published in March certainly found examples “excellent”. Lord Carlile not only accepted the need to of UK Muslims having a strong negative perception of maintain 28 days but said: counter-terrorism legislation, but concluded that there “I expect in the course of time to see cases in which the current was insufficient evidence on specific aspects, such as 28 maximum of 28 days will be proved inadequate. This will be very days, to lead to any firm conclusions. I doubt whether rare but inevitably extremely serious.” anyone in this Chamber thinks that pre-charge detention The 28 day pre-charge detention for terrorist suspects of 28 rather than 14 days has of itself radicalised is a temporary measure which, thanks to the work of anyone to the extent that they would be prepared to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North engage in terrorist activity. (Mr Winnick), who is in his place, has to be renewed While I am dealing with this aspect, I hope the Home each year. The task of the House in considering whether Secretary can refute the story in The Guardian this to support a further extension—in this case for six morning that she has decided to dismantle the Prevent months—was succinctly expressed by the hon. Member strategy. She told my right hon. Friend the Member for for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley)when he spoke for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)yesterday, as is recorded the Conservatives in last year’s debate. Perhaps I may in column 802 of Hansard, that the strategy was being just mention that we all look forward to seeing the hon. reviewed between the Home Department and the 1011 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1012 Terrorism Terrorism Department for Communities and Local Government. shared desire to use intercept as evidence were breached When I read the Home Office draft structural reform during the simulations that they conducted in their plan released yesterday, which is the source of the story course of their work. They are doing further work to in The Guardian, all I could find was the eminently see whether they can find a way around the difficulties, sensible objective of keeping the “prevent” strand of but the issue is obviously integral to the whole question counter-terrorism separate from the “integration”initiatives of pre-charge detention. of DCLG. I would welcome clarification. I ask the Home Secretary to reconsider the response that she gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Mrs May: I am happy to give the right hon. Gentleman Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who asked why intercept the clarification he seeks. As set out in the Home Office evidence was not being considered as part of the review. structural reform plan, we intend to look at the different She rightly said that it was better to consider the issue strands of the Prevent strategy and to ensure that they over time, but that, I believe, is an argument for spending are properly focused on the right aims. I believe that it is longer on the review. I fail to see how such an important right and appropriate to separate out the part of the component of the argument about 28 days—rehearsed Prevent strategy that is about integration from the part in every annual debate, and also integral to the consideration about counter-terrorism. One problem with Prevent is of control orders, which is also part of the review—can that those two aspects have become intertwined in too be separated from the overall review. many people’s thinking, which has, sadly, led to some of Finally, there is the important question of whether the Prevent work being rejected by those whom it was the power is being abused in the legal framework. Some intended to help. Members argue that we should abandon this measure because it is not used very often, but I would be more Alan Johnson: I am grateful for that clarification, and concerned if it were used other than sparingly. As the I completely agree with what the Home Secretary has Home Secretary rightly said, it is an exceptional measure, said about Prevent. as Lord Carlile has pointed out, the need for it is rare, As the Home Secretary said in her speech, the security and the Crown Prosecution Service is well aware that no threat is, if anything, greater today than it was a year one should be detained for a moment longer than ago. In the year since the last renewal, we have learned necessary. There is no evidence that the power has been more, by means of Operation Overt, about the so-called abused, but Lord Carlile made an important liquid bomb plot, through the successful prosecution of recommendation in his review of Operation Pathway, those involved. We should remember that this involved proposing the granting of conditional bail by a judge the planned destruction of seven passenger planes all for a period up to the 28th day following arrest, which flying to North America, and is one case in which would enable restrictions short of custody to be imposed pre-charge detention beyond 14 days was necessary in while the inquiry continued. That strikes me as worthy respect of six people involved in that plot. of consideration, perhaps during the review. We also know now that Operation Pathway in Greater In my view, the evidence is overwhelming. The statutory Manchester, which was a matter of speculation in the instrument should be approved today, and the Government debate this time last year, is now understood to have should tread very carefully if the purpose of their been a serious and advanced terrorist plot. It was, review is to arrive at a conclusion consistent with the thankfully, thwarted yet again by the security services. Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment to reduce the In the past year, two further organisations have been 28-day pre-charge detention period for terrorist suspects proscribed. The threat level, decided not by Ministers regardless of the dangers and the overwhelming evidence. but by the experts in the security agencies, has been changed to “substantial” and then back to the second Several hon. Members rose— highest level, “severe”, which means that an attack is highly likely. As we meet today to make a decision Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I remind based on the evidence over the coming year, that is the Members that the debate is time-limited. They will have position in which we find ourselves. noted how many others wish to take part, and I ask On Christmas Day, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a them to exercise some restraint. Nigerian citizen who studied in the United Kingdom and was radicalised in Yemen, flew from Lagos via 4.8 pm Holland with 80 grams of PETN explosive—which successfully circumvented aviation security—sewn into Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): It his underpants, in an attempt to blow up a passenger is a pleasure to follow both my right hon. and charming plane over Detroit. That demonstrated first the continuing Friends, the Home Secretary and the deputy—sorry, ingenuity of our enemies, and secondly the international shadow—Home Secretary.I am sorry; that was a Freudian nature of the threat. slip, but almost a deliberate one. There has been one other important development Let me begin by wishing you a happy Bastille day, over the year: the report of the all-party group of Privy Mr Deputy Speaker. It seems appropriate, given the Counsellors, under the chairmanship of Sir John Chilcot, subject that we are discussing. I shall not recommend on the crucial issue of intercept evidence. When I was that we storm the barricades, but I do intend to divide Home Secretary, I briefed the Prime Minister and the the House on the motion. I tell Members that now, so Deputy Prime Minister separately in their previous that it is clear where we are going. We may not trouble roles. They fully understand—as, I know, does the Home the scorers greatly in the Lobby against the Government, Secretary—that the Privy Counsellors found that two but, given the historic role of the House in defending of the nine principles that they themselves had established the liberties of our monarch’s subjects, I think it important in order to ensure a practical way in which to meet our that a policy which, whatever its rights and wrongs, has 1013 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1014 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr David Davis] That was the case the then Home Secretary made, and within a month or so of his briefing me on it we so far led to the imprisonment of three innocent people almost had a rehearsal in Operation Overt, the Heathrow for 28 days is one on which the House should decide plot, to which the shadow Home Secretary referred. It explicitly and not on the nod. was thought at the time that 10 aircraft had been I welcome the Home Secretary’s intention to have a targeted, although it now turns out that the true number six-month review of counter-terrorism policy, but I say was seven, as well as multiple locations—there were to her that, in my view, there is plenty of very clear many suspects at the beginning in at least three different evidence to demonstrate that 28 days is too many. I will locations. There were also concerns about gaining access also go through some of the points the shadow Home to some of the houses and other places where evidence Secretary raised in his speech. These are not just matters was thought to be located, and foreign evidence was of principle; they are matters of high principle and hard involved, too. It was a facsimile of the case John Reid fact. had described. The shadow Home Secretary said he recognised that Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): Does my right hon. there are concerns that an authoritarian approach to Friend agree that, although we accept that radicalisation counter-terrorism policy might have the deleterious effect may not be created by one action or one piece of of creating more radicalised Islamists—more potential legislation, having pre-charge detention of 28 days terrorists—than a more traditional liberal British approach compromises civil liberties and that, for some at least, it would. That is clearly the case. The hard fact supporting is one step towards radicalisation—as is the Prevent that assertion was given by the head of MI5 in his last agenda’s national indicator 35, which targeted the Muslim speech to the country, when he said that there are 2,000 community specifically? We need to make sure that we persons of interest—those are his words—to MI5, which do not compromise the democratic process and that we is a 25% increase on the previous year’s figure. If the engage all communities. increase continues at that rate, no amount of security will defend us from the consequences of our own actions. Mr Davis: My hon. Friend is entirely right. This is the Radicalisation is, of course, created by more than just most symbolic of the restrictions of our civil rights, and authoritarian policies, but such policies do drive it. the one seen by Muslim communities in this country as Anybody who talks to the leaders of Muslim communities being targeted on them. It is not intended to be, but that up and down the country will know that—they will pick is the way it is seen. that message up time and again. At the forefront of that What actually happened as a result of Operation trend is the 28-day policy. In relation to home-grown Overt and the Heathrow plot? As the shadow Home terrorism, detention without charge is the biggest recruiting Secretary said, six people were held beyond 14 days; five sergeant for our opponents. people were held for 27 or 28 days, and at the end of that process it turned out that three were innocent. I Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): Does my right hon. used the word “innocent” when the previous Government Friend agree that it was interesting that the shadow were in power, and I was almost shouted down. I mean Home Secretary did not choose to mention the threat innocent: no control order, no surveillance, no open we currently face from republican terrorism coming file—the police thought they were innocent. When I from the north of Ireland? In view of the fact that we obtained that information I had with me as my witnesses are approaching the internment day anniversary of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton 8 August, would it not be an extremely powerful statement (Mr Raab) and the Attorney-General. What was thought to reduce the detention period from 28 to 14 days now, was therefore very plain. rather than to wait until later? Alan Johnson: The right hon. Gentleman is making a very effective case. Can he explain why, in last year’s Mr Davis: My hon. Friend makes a very good case, debate on this issue, he voted for the continuation of and he knows Northern Ireland terrorism better than 28 days? His party abstained but he made the point in most people in this House. He also knows that internment that debate that he could not accept 14 days, which he is was one of the best recruiting sergeants for the Provisional now advocating, precisely because he knew inside details IRA and others in that period. So yes, he is right. of Operation Overt and what happened at Heathrow. The second hard fact I want to draw on relates to the What changed his mind during the ensuing year? reasons given to me for 42 and 90 days by John Reid, the predecessor as Home Secretary of both my right Mr Davis: It took us time to get to the bottom of the hon. Friend the current Secretary of State and my facts. When I asked the right hon. Gentleman’s predecessor friend the shadow Secretary of State. When John Reid as Home Secretary to give us the information I am briefed me, as shadow Home Secretary, on his Government’s talking about, we were not given it. I asked for it three proposals for those periods of detention, the most times, and my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and telling argument he had—to be fair, it was telling—was Walton was there on at least one or two of those the prospect of the British agencies being overwhelmed occasions. This is one of the problems with the Home by multiple prospective attacks at the same time. The Office: it mouths the words “justice must be seen to be circumstances he listed were as follows: multiple plots done”, but it does not live by them in terms of transparency. against multiple targets at multiple locations, with not Let me turn to the remaining two people who were all the information involved being in our control—perhaps detained, because some further facts have come to light. some of it was coming from foreign intelligence agencies We were told at the time, “Here is a serious case and we such as the Pakistani service—and with the plot already have to go to 27 or 28 days—right to the edge—in order starting to be carried out, so that it was necessary to to bring a case against them.” However, we pressed the move quickly. matter and asked when the evidence was obtained to 1015 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1016 Terrorism Terrorism charge those individuals. It was obtained not at 27 or Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Has my right hon. 28 days, but before 14 days—if I remember correctly, on Friend taken note of the recent statements by the Lord day three and day 12. It was perfectly possible to charge Chief Justice on such matters? He has been very clear those people before the 14-day limit; now we find, about the need to protect the common law, so the whole however, that they were charged on day 28. They spent issue of habeas corpus, which is an integral part of this, nine months in prison on remand, and even in that time needs to be reinforced. What we need is fair trials, due not enough evidence was found to convict them. One of process and habeas corpus, irrespective of the Human the cases was thrown out by the judge after hearing Rights Act 1998. it—it did not even go to a jury. The other was rejected unanimously by the jury and the individual concerned Mr Davis: My hon. Friend goes, as usual, right to the was exonerated. It was not a soft jury: the same jury core of the issue. This is about habeas corpus; it is about convicted three other terrorists in the same trial. So, we the most fundamental British freedom there is. had five people, every single one of whom was innocent. When we have got through all the things I have That is what our policy has done so far and why it is a mentioned, we come to what happens on day 28. I want recruiting sergeant for terrorism. It might not make to be helpful to the police. They might say, “I have somebody a terrorist, but it does make the communities somebody in my control who I am sure is a terrorist. I concerned less likely to co-operate, less likely to provide know that from everything I know. I can’t quite prove it, information, and less likely to help us to prevent the but I think I will get the evidence if I have got him for next terrorist attack. That is why the policy is completely another few days.” What do we do then? We actually counter-productive. have something that we do then—it is called the threshold Let me turn to hard fact No. 3: the simple list put out test. The test for charging somebody is allowable—we by the previous Government and the present Government are allowed to charge them if we are convinced that showing why we need this provision for another six they are guilty and that we will find the information months. We are told how difficult terrorist cases are. shortly. What did we do when we were trying to be consensual I am not going to name the individual, but at one with previous Government? Both the Conservatives point in this process I asked to see the head of counter- and the Liberal Democrats agreed with—in fact, we terrorism and I talked to him about that. What shocked thought up—the idea of acts preparatory to terrorism. me was that he did not even understand the threshold We supported the idea of terrorist training being an test. Again, I cite my hon. Friend the Member for Esher offence, so we made matters easier in that regard. and Walton as a witness, because he was at that same The next argument was, “We have lots of evidence meeting. It is terrifying that our own forces did not and it might be encrypted—it might be in code.” We know the weapons that they had at their command. had to remind the previous Government that when they Right across the board, every piece of evidence to passed the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, support the case for the provision falls down. The most they made it an offence to withhold the encryption key, fundamental one, which has been mentioned, although so if the evidence is in code, belongs to the suspect and it was rather mocked by the shadow Home Secretary, is he does not provide the key, we have got him for five the approach of other countries. None of the problems years anyway. Therefore, that argument went out the that I have described as the case in support of 28 days is window. faced by us alone; every other common law authority has the same problems. Yet America charges in two Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The right hon. days and indicts in 10, Canada does that in one day, Gentleman will no doubt be aware that in cases involving New Zealand does it in two days and South Africa does encrypted data, 28 days, six months or even a year it in two days. The nearest arrangement to ours is would not necessarily be long enough if there were no indicative, because it is Australia, which does it in access to encryption codes, so such a detention period 12 days. Its 12-day provision was a mistake, but 12 days would not help anyway. is what it was. However, as we stand here, its Senate is Mr Davis: My hon. Friend—I suppose he is my hon. taking through a law to reduce that to eight days, and Friend—is exactly right. When we heard those arguments, the only controversy in Australia is about whether it we thought that, with the prospect of the terrorism should be lower, not about whether it should be higher. levels being, as the shadow Home Secretary says, very The simple fact is that our policy is built on political high, the then Government would have acted quickly. machismo, not on effectiveness. What we have to do is What was worrying was that that RIPA requirement, recognise what all the other civilised countries in the passed in 2000, was not brought into effect until 2007—two world are doing and go in the right direction, which is years after the 7/7 bombings. So we did not even give to cut 28 days. what was already on the statute book as a weapon for the police to use. 4.23 pm The other thing the then Government said to us was, “If you charge people, you cannot interview them after Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): It is unlikely charge.” In 2005, we volunteered to amend that, but the that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden Government did not make that change in the (Mr Davis) and I agree on anything, except what we are 2006 legislation. They put the provision in the 2008 now debating. We certainly see eye to eye on this legislation, which is not even in force yet. If we are question and have done for considerable time. serious about taking this on, we should deal with the The figure of 28 days was not picked out of the air in things that actually attack the problems that we are November 2005, when the maximum period was 14 days trying to address. We should not create other problems and 90 days was proposed. It should be remembered for ourselves. that, in July that year, there had been a massacre—there 1017 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1018 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr David Winnick] would have thought that the provision in the Act on post-charge questioning could be brought into force is no other way to describe it—of 52 innocent people, sooner rather than later. with others seriously injured. A fortnight later, on 21 July I am the last person in any way to minimise the 2005, there was another attempted atrocity. That was continued terrorist threat. I have always worked on the the situation that faced the House of Commons when assumption that, as the police said at the time, it was a we were debating the issue in November that year. question of not if but when. The police were proved Given those circumstances and the fact that the absolutely right, unfortunately and tragically, by the Government—wrongly in my view—wanted to increase mass murder in July 2005. Surely no one would now say the 14 days to 90 days, it is understandable that the that the threat does not exist to the same level. I do not House agreed to 28 days. know if it is smaller or not, but I do know that if As far as I know, no one actually suggested that the al-Qaeda could carry out the sort of atrocities that it 14 days should stay. There was no vote on whether carried out the other day in Uganda, it would do so 14 days should remain the status quo. There was more without the slightest hesitation whatsoever. I mention or less agreement—apart from in the Government and that to make it absolutely clear that in no way do I argue among those who supported the Government at the that the terrorist threat does not exist or is minor—far time—that the number of days of pre-charge detention from it. I am sure that the same applies to other hon. should be doubled from 14 to 28 days. Those were the Members. circumstances in which we debated the issue at the time. As far as the 28-day period is concerned, the Home Secretary has confirmed today that no one has been Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The facts of the situation held for longer than 14 days since July 2007, so the were that the provision on the face of the Bill was for provision is not in use. One argument for voting against three months’ detention but at the key stage of the Bill, it today is that we need not keep it if it is not absolutely two amendments were listed. One changed the limit essential. The Home Secretary is on record as saying from three months to 90 days and the other changed that she would prefer a period of 14 days, so if that is it to 28 days. Those were the only two options on the position, why not agree to a 14-day period today? offer. When the Government’s 90 day amendment was Protecting the public from terror must be one of the defeated, the 28 day amendment was the only way that highest priorities for all concerned, particularly the anybody had of preventing the limit from staying at security services, the police and the Government of the three months. day. The job of Parliament is to ensure that funding is provided to ensure that the police and security services Mr Winnick: I do not wish to disagree with my hon. can do their jobs. Obviously, that is essential, but we Friend, but what I am saying is that there seemed to be have another responsibility to protect, as far as possible, general agreement, given the circumstances of the atrocities our traditional liberties. That is one of the most essential that occurred in July 2005, that the limit should be jobs of Parliament. It is relatively easy to defend civil increased. However, I do not particularly want to pursue liberties when there is no terrorist threat, but the real that further because I am now of the view—I agree with challenge is when there is such a threat, be it from the the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden—that most obvious sources, or from dissident republicans or we should return to 14 days, because I do not really whoever. believe that there is any justification for extending the When there is an acute threat, how do we protect the order for another six months. I know the views of my liberties that are so essential to the tradition of our right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench but, country? The right of an individual not to be held by again, I disagree with them. the police except for a very short time has become very We must always bear in mind that for non-terrorist much a part of the tradition of this country. The right cases the maximum remains, rightly, only four days— of habeas corpus existed even when civil liberties as 96 hours. No Government, fortunately, has suggested such did not, so a person could not be held indefinitely. that there should be any change to that whatsoever. That is why I feel so strongly about this issue and why I Where terrorism is concerned, we are going beyond the believe that it is not necessary, at this time, to extend the four days allowed in non-terrorist cases—that is crucial. 28-day period. To repeat what I said nearly five years Until 2003, the maximum for terror suspects was just ago, every generation of parliamentarians has the seven days. It has continued to increase—to seven days, responsibility to make sure that the freedoms and the 14 days and then 28 days. Fortunately, all attempts to civil liberties that we inherit from our predecessors increase it beyond 28 days—first to 90 days and then to should be passed on to our successors. That is important 42 days—were defeated. The 42 days provision was and it is why I have always been very wary of giving the passed by a majority of nine in the House of Commons police and the security authorities more power than is but rightly rejected by the Lords. absolutely essential. As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden The Home Secretary said that there was a whipped has said, there is of course the added provision now that vote for Labour Members on this issue at the time, and did not exist in 2005—namely, post-charge questioning there was, not surprisingly—one would not expect otherwise. of terror suspects. That is an important element. The However, some of us broke the Whip because we decided fact that the provision has not come into force is not a that the matter was so important that we should vote reason not to take it into consideration. Only the Home against the Government, who were duly defeated. Without Secretary or the shadow Home Secretary can explain being patronising, let me ask Conservative and, perhaps, why it has not come into force. If there is a feeling that Liberal Democrat Members something: even if they are 14 days is not sufficient and that the terrorist threat whipped today, do they really believe that it is absolutely remains acute—I could not agree more on the latter—one essential to renew this order? If they do, they will vote 1019 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1020 Terrorism Terrorism with the Government, obviously, but if they do not, I because it undermines the ancient right of habeas corpus, hope that they will do what so many Labour Members which goes back to Magna Carta. We now know that, did in November 2005. in relation to Operation Overt and the Heathrow plot of August 2006—the most challenging counter-terrorism 4.34 pm investigation that we have ever faced as a nation—only five suspects were held for the maximum period of Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I welcome 28 days and only two were charged. Contrary to what the forthcoming review of the 28-day limit, the measures Ministers said at the time, as my right hon. Friend the that the Home Secretary has already taken on ID cards Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) has and stop-and-search powers and the wider review said, all the evidence relied upon was available well announced yesterday. We have an opportunity with the within 14 days. That Operation Overt was used by the coalition and, as the hon. Member for Walsall North last Government to justify proposals for 42 days’ detention (Mr Winnick) made clear, we have support across the was deeply irresponsible. House to restore our freedoms, while strengthening our security. This is not the zero-sum game depicted by Since Operation Overt, only one person has been countless, hapless Labour Home Secretaries, but it is held for longer than 14 days—an isolated case of 19 days’ crucial that we have an open and honest debate on these pre-charge detention. Last year, in 2009, no suspects matters, and for that we need clear and accurate information. were held in pre-charge detention for longer than 14 days I ask the Home Secretary to clarify a slight discrepancy and 70% were dealt with within 48 hours. So the raw between the answer that I received from her Department facts in the debate are that, in four years, we have not on 28 June and the quarterly bulletin of last November. needed longer than 19 days’ pre-charge detention, let My understanding is that only one person, not two, alone 28 days. If we are judging the necessity of the held for the full 28-day period has ever been convicted order on the pressures that the police face during the of a terrorism offence. I also ask her to provide in table pre-charge period, the evidence no longer supports a form basic information that her department has previously limit beyond 21 days at the very most. refused to give. First, I should like to know, year by In truth, those data are not the only relevant information. year, the number of people subjected to control orders, Briefings by the heads of MI5 in 2006 and 2007 showed with a breakdown indicating the number of UK citizens a rise in the number of terrorist suspects being monitored and foreign nationals. That is relevant to our ability to by the authorities from 1,600 to 2,000. In 2008, the head deport terrorist suspects whom we cannot prosecute. of MI5 stated publicly that the volume of late-stage Secondly, I should like information setting out the terrorist planning had fallen that year. I am not aware number of foreign nationals who have not been deported, of any more recent assessments from the head of MI5 broken down by category of reason—whether or the agency more generally. The House will recall that administrative, legal or based on human rights—so that MI5 refused to support the last Government’s proposals we better understand why we have been failing to deport for 42 days’ detention. Ministers stated at the time that so many of them. That information is not impossible to it would be inappropriate for MI5 to give a view, yet collate, and it is vital for this issue and the wider debate Tony Blair publicly relied on MI5’s support for the on counter-terrorism. increase in the limit in 2005. It cannot be in the interests of the intelligence agencies or the public that MI5 Mrs May: My hon. Friend asks for a number of assessments are relied on by Ministers only when it is figures, but it is only fair to the House that I should pick politically expedient or they want to publicise blood-curdling up the first point that he makes, which relates to a assessments of the terrorist threat. I ask the Home parliamentary question that was answered in the name Secretary to put these arrangements on a more clear of the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right and stable footing. Either we should not have such hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs briefings and public statements by MI5, or we should (Nick Herbert), who has responsibility for crime and have regular, objective assessments of the domestic policing. Unfortunately, an inaccurate statistic was included terrorist threat based on hard data that avoid any risk in that answer, and he will correct that in the Hansard or perception of politicisation. record very shortly. The figures on pre-charge detention are indeed as I indicated in my speech. Eleven individuals Paragraph 7 of the explanatory memorandum to the have been detained for 14 days or longer. Six individuals order claims that all the specific grounds cited as reasons have been detained for 27 to 28 days, of whom three for increasing the maximum limit to 28 days in 2006 were subsequently charged and three released. Of the “remain relevant”. It is difficult to accept that sweeping three who were charged, two were convicted and the assertion without further information. First, has the case of one was not proceeded with. In the answer that challenge of encrypted computers not been eased at all my hon. Friend was given, reference was made to the by the enactment in 2007 of a criminal offence of number of individuals who had been arrested as a result withholding encryption keys? Will the Home Secretary of an operation by Greater Manchester police. It was give us data on prosecution and conviction rates under indicated that two individuals were involved. In fact, that offence? only one of the 11 arrested as a result of that operation Secondly, will the Home Secretary inform the House was involved. of any case in the past two years in which the presence of chemical, biological, radiological or nuclear material Mr Raab: I thank the Home Secretary for that has been a direct factor that has prolonged the period of clarification. It is refreshing to get clarification from the pre-charge detention? Thirdly, will she explain the extent Home Office so swiftly. to which the new powers of post-charge questioning Twenty-eight days’ pre-charge detention was an that were enacted in 2008 have alleviated the problem of emergency measure introduced on a temporary basis. having to intervene early in some terrorist investigations We need a clear and convincing justification to retain it, because of the threat to public safely? Alternatively, is it 1021 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1022 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr Raab] Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? correct, as Liberty and several hon. Members have stated, that the relevant power was not even brought Dr McCrea: I have little time and I want to complete into force by the previous Government, despite all the the few remarks that I believe need to be put on the hubris on that specific point? record. The truth is that gaps remain in the UK counter-terrorism On 7 July 2005, the attack on London’s public transport strategy, despite the excellent work and unstinting system surely reminded us that there is a vicious and commitment of our police and intelligence agencies. If evil terrorist threat against the United Kingdom. In the it is correct that the terrorist threat has remained constant House the other day, I said that the Government’s first and at its highest level, it must be worrying that the responsibility is to protect the law-abiding community, number of arrests leading to charge under terrorism and that every tool must be available to the security legislation dropped by more than a fifth last year. The services to ensure that that priority is achieved. I believe number of guilty pleas in terrorism investigations also that the House and the country must come to terms fell by a third, while the number of convictions under with reality. We must make up our minds what the terrorism legislation halved. Counter-intuitively, there primary objective really is. Terrorism—no one knows it was a conviction rate of 93% in terrorism cases, compared better than the people of Northern Ireland—is an evil with rates of 31% for conspiracy to murder, 30% for in society, and society must face the evil. wounding and 38% for rape, and that raises the more basic question of whether, as a matter of policy, we are There is nothing beautiful about terrorism and there taking a sufficiently robust approach to the exercise of is no excuse for terrorism. The idea that somehow prosecutorial discretion in terrorism cases—I am talking 28 days of detention gives terrorists an excuse to attack about not a case-by-case approach, but the overarching the people of the United Kingdom is despicable. Terrorism strategy on prosecution. is ugly, unacceptable and despicable, and it must be faced. We in Northern Ireland endured the curse of We need a review of prosecutorial strategy as part of terrorism for more than 30 years. To be frank with the a broader shift away from the previous Government’s House, many were happy to appease the terrorists as ineffective authoritarianism and towards an approach long as terrorism remained in Northern Ireland and did that deploys rather than sidesteps the British justice not come on to the mainland. Some thought that system. That means the greater use, when necessary, of appeasement was a price worth paying. Terrorism destroys the threshold test to prosecute when evidence is not the liberty and the freedom of a people. It destroys the available but is in the pipeline. It also means lifting the freedom and the liberty of the innocent, and I fear that ban on intercept evidence, coupled with a more proactive some are about to make the mistake of the past. I do use of plea bargaining, to increase the number of not wish for any person to be detained any longer than convictions, as well as the conviction rate, especially in is necessary. cases involving wider conspiracies or joint criminal enterprise, as it is commonly known. Above all, however, The statistics that the Home Secretary has brought to it requires a change in the professional culture of this the House today prove that the legislation has not been country’s intelligence and law enforcement authorities. abused, and therefore people have not been abused, That would be in line with the approach in other because the figures tell us that the legislation that has common law jurisdictions, most notably the US, where been in place with the 28-day provision has been used pre-charge detention is limited to two days. That is the both sensitively and responsibly. As I have said, I do not way in which we can fight terror while defending our wish anyone to be detained for any longer than necessary, historic freedoms in this country. but I would leave it up to the security services to advise on the issue, rather than allow political expedience to I will support the order. I recognise that the Home meddle with things or to muddy the waters. Secretary needs time to examine these difficult issues further, but in the absence of convincing new evidence, I It is interesting to notice that the major party of the will be inclined to oppose renewal in six months’ time. coalition Government, when it went to the electorate, did not mention 14 days in its manifesto. It did not mention changing the 28-day period. The only party 4.43 pm that did mention it was the Liberal Democrat party, Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Existing which is not surprising. However, on previous occasions, counter-terrorism legislation allows the police, in specific my right hon. and hon. colleagues received security circumstances, to arrest individuals who are reasonably briefings on this important issue and were guided thereby. suspected of being terrorists. Once arrested, those suspects Therefore, will the Home Secretary clarify what advice may be detained without charge for up to 28 days, she has received on the current 28-day detention period? which allows the police to obtain, preserve, analyse and Over the years, we in Northern Ireland have been examine evidence for use in criminal proceedings. inconvenienced. We were frustrated on many occasions I must confess that, having listened to the debate, it and at times we were angry at the use of powers, but seems that several hon. Members think that we are still whenever our lives were preserved from the terrorists’ living in a cosy country and a peaceful world, and that bombs, we were very thankful. We were very appreciative they are oblivious to the serious threats that we face. of what the security forces did to preserve innocent life The reality is very different. A significant threat from and the freedom of law-abiding citizens. Islamic terrorism remains, while dissident republican When we talk about what we want to hand on to the organisations endeavour to increase their capacity for next generation, I suggest that the fundamental murder and mayhem. I believe that we need measures responsibility of the House is to hand on freedom. We that reflect the threat against our people. can have a peace at any price, but we cannot have 1023 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1024 Terrorism Terrorism freedom at any price. As I have said, at times we have We have heard about those other countries, so are we been angry, but our lives were preserved. We fail to saying that our police are worse than theirs? Do we thank the security services for the numerous times they think that our prosecutors are less good and our legal have saved us from disaster, but many times we are system less effective? I do not think so. We have excellent quick to condemn them and complain about them when police and prosecutors, and an excellent legal system, so they do not get it completely right. The measure before what makes us so different? What message about our the House and the 28-day period is appropriate, bearing attitude to civil liberties does the measure send not only in mind the terrorist threat that the United Kingdom to our citizens, but to those of other countries, who faces, and I trust that the House will approve the order used to look on us as a beacon of civil liberties but have accordingly. been sadly let down?

Several hon. Members rose— Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. Gentleman not read the monitors, when he walks into Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Under the Standing Order, this building every morning, that remind him why we this debate closes at 14 minutes past 5. I shall call the are different? The threat level is severe and remains Home Secretary at nine minutes past 5—[Interruption.] severe, and, although he might wish to play cricket with Even later than that? I thank the Home Secretary for terrorists and give them a sporting chance on this issue, that, but could Members please restrain themselves? he is playing Russian roulette with the lives of this nation’s citizens. 4.50 pm Dr Huppert: I find it disappointing that the hon. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Thank you Gentleman takes that line. We are not alone in facing very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall try to be brief. the threat of terrorism. Other countries have faced it Our coalition Government agreed to restore the ancient and had issues to deal with, and they have done that in civil liberties that should be synonymous with our country, much better ways. and it is to Labour’s eternal shame—with a few honourable We have alternatives, and other countries clearly manage. exceptions, many of whom I am glad to see in their We have the threshold test, to which my right hon. places—that it did so much damage to our country’s Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden name and to our civil liberties. I congratulate the Home (Mr Davis) referred. It states that, when there is not Secretary, as I did yesterday, on the review, which represents enough information, it is possible to proceed with a excellent progress, but my hon. Friend the Member for charge if there are reasonable grounds to think that we Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and I pressed will get more evidence, the case is serious and there are her on 28 days, because that is important. Labour’s grounds to object to bail. 90-day efforts, which were resisted, have become one of the party’s totemic issues, and I welcome the Home Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Secretary’s aims to reduce the period to 14 days. However, Gentleman give way? I do not agree that we need to wait six months before we Dr Huppert: I ought to save time. get on with it. We should allow the 28 days to lapse and If that is not the case, then we should not be holding default to 14 days while the review goes ahead. people for 28 days anyway. How can we defend a Let us think about the 28-day period. It means 28 days month? without being told what someone is accused of. Is that We also have the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which proportionate? How does it interact with the concepts gives powers in extremis, and I know that the Home of being innocent until proven guilty and habeas corpus? Secretary and other hon. Members are aware of that. Then, there are the effects on people’s lives afterwards, if, as often happens, they turn out to be innocent. We do face a serious situation, and we do need to have the right tools to combat terrorism, but 28-day What about elsewhere? We have talked about the US, detention without trial is not the right one. It causes too where the constitution provides for 48 hours. In Spain, much collateral damage in its effect on our civil liberties which has faced terrorism, the limit is five days, and in and the message that we send to others who might be South Africa it is 48 hours, against which I am sure hon. considering such issues and those who look up to us Members campaigned during apartheid. The shadow from other countries. I urge hon. Members to reject Home Secretary, whom I am pleased to see in his place, 28 days. talked about Norway, but I hope that he is aware of how that country, under its Criminal Procedure Act 1981, 4.54 pm allows only three days’ detention, with an extension after the police have presented the charge. That is a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to critical difference, because after the charge has been follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), presented we are into a very different space. who is the newest member of the Home Affairs Committee. I can recall that of the Committee’s 38 reports, 37 were Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) unanimous; the discussion and inquiry that we held on (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of us pre-charge detention was the only one on which the voted for 28 days only because we saw it as a means of Committee divided. blocking 90 days? There was no consensus on our We have had some very odd couplings, if I may put it Benches for 28 days. like that, today. We had the Front Benchers—the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary—agreeing, Dr Huppert: Indeed I am. I have followed the matter, and then we had the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and the hon. Lady is absolutely correct: 28 days was not and Howden (Mr Davis) and my hon. Friend the Member the aim, but it was better than 90. for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) agreeing. I thought for 1025 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1026 Terrorism Terrorism [Keith Vaz] the security services. The security services have never said, on or off the record, that they wanted an increase a moment that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton in the detention period. When they met the Select (Mr Raab) was going to vote against the order until the Committee, they were very clear that they were not last few seconds, when he gave the Home Secretary the taking a position on this, and that was echoed in the benefit of the doubt. statements made by the head of MI5. In their view, it This is a very important debate. Of course, the mood was a decision to be made by politicians. is different from that of the last debate, although there My next point concerns the impact on the community. is a huge amount of passion. I came into this Chamber I listened to what my right hon. Friend the shadow with a determination to vote for the order, but I am Home Secretary said, and I have great admiration for going to vote against it because I do not think the case him. However, I do not believe that the so-called has been made. I have been swayed—I know that this is independent research conducted by officials at the Home very unusual for a Member of this House—by the Office—or consultants, or whoever did it—truly reflects speeches that I have heard. I am impressed by the the views of the community. This matter impacts on the integrity of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall community, and that includes the ethnic minority North, who has campaigned long and hard on this communities of this country, specifically the Muslim issue, and by the fact that the right hon. Member for community. There was huge disquiet about these powers Haltemprice and Howden resigned and fought a by-election being sought by the last Government. I have 10,000 people on it. I also remember the speech made by the hon. of the Muslim faith in my constituency; others have Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) during the last debate, more. It was not only the Muslim community but the which was pretty passionate. That is not to dismiss entire ethnic minority community that was concerned, anything that we have heard from others who obviously although they may not have wanted to relate their views make very important points. to consultants for a research document. The Home Secretary is coming before the Select Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Committee tomorrow morning—I hope she has not we need 28 days for two reasons: for the ongoing verbal forgotten, because we are all turning up and it would be investigations and for the forensic part of the evidence? terrible if she were not there—and we will of course It is not like the “CSI” programmes on TV. A person is probe her about her review. I am sure that she will deal not convicted in 60 minutes—28 days are needed to do with all the points that we raise in the competent way that. It helps to remove the more volatile members of she has done since becoming Home Secretary. However, the community and to ensure that innocent people are in answer to the hon. Member for Perth and North protected. Perthshire (Pete Wishart) she said that she was personally Keith Vaz: I understand that; it is exactly the point in favour of 14 days. She had me until that point. If she that Ian Blair, now Lord Blair, made to the Select believes that 14 days is the right limit, how can she come Committee. However, as we have heard today from the before the House and ask for 28? On that point alone, Home Secretary, this power has not been used very and having been convinced by right hon. and hon. often. I am sure that she was in the Chamber when the Members, I will vote against the motion. Attorney-General spoke on the issue—it was one of the best speeches that I have ever heard here—and opposed what the last Government were going to do. To be 5pm perfectly frank, if one has a power that one does not Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): In the light use, why have it? of the time left, you will be delighted to know, Mr Deputy It is important to consider who supported the longer Speaker, that rather like the last Government in their detention period. Only the police came before the dying days, I have adopted a policy of slash and burn to Committee and said that they supported it. Ken the speech that I was going to make. Macdonald—now Lord Macdonald—who is conducting If the counter-terrorism review states that the limit the review had no reservations when he was Director of should be reduced, I and this Government would support Public Prosecutions, but had reservations after he ceased that. I would personally welcome a move towards liberty to be DPP. He brought those reservations— and away from the Big Brother state that grew up under the last Government. Having listened to the debate Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Will my right today, I am afraid the matter is not as simple as saying hon. Friend give way? that the limit should be 90 days, 40 days, 28 days, 14 days or 2 days, as in Australia. Maybe 14 days is the Keith Vaz: I will not, because time is very short and I correct amount of time, but what about extreme, know that lots of people want to speak. I have great complicated or international cases? For me, any decision admiration for my right hon. Friend—oh, all right, taken before the review would by definition be arrogant, then. hasty and uncalled-for. Mr Howarth: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend Consultations and reviews are not simply box-ticking for reluctantly giving way. Does he recall that when exercises, although they often had a habit of becoming those debates were going on, the claim was never that so under the last Government. They are there for a these powers would be used frequently, but that they reason. There are big decisions that need grown-up, might be necessary in very exceptional circumstances? thought through answers, and they need decisions in this House that result in laws that do not need to come Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is right, but we now back to the House constantly to be amended, fixed and have the facts and some evidence that we did not have adjusted. Earlier, the question was asked, “Why do we before. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton mentioned not just say 14 days?” For me, that is precisely the point. 1027 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1028 Terrorism Terrorism The Government are trying to search for the best results, by disorder, chaos and terror. It made him deeply not just the best headlines. That is why we do not just unpopular at the time. However, on reflection, we now say14days. celebrate the day for recorded rights—not abstract, but Sometimes, like good tea, good whisky and good recorded rights. They were developed in British common coffee, good laws take a little bit of time to produce. An law, and the greatest of them is now in section 5 of the extra six months is not perfect, but nor is it permanent, Human Rights Act. It is habeas corpus, as prefigured in and it is purposeful. Within that time, the counter-terrorism article 39 of Magna Carta. review will have published its opinion, taking into account We must never forget that we are considering suspects— the issues that have been debated this afternoon such as they have not been convicted of any crime. The Home encryption, the complexity of some extreme cases and Office has tools at its disposal that it did not have in how to avoid the abuse of powers. I, for one, look 2006. It has the ability to question people post-charge, forward to voting then for a good, well thought through and to draw on new offences, especially training, preparation and well worked out law that is based on what is best for and dissemination in the context of terrorism. the country and for the people of Britain. I conclude with two questions. First, has thought been given to 21 days as an intermediate period between 5.2 pm 14 and 28 days? Are there merits in that? Secondly, has Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Before I adequate consideration been given to the use of the came to the House I practised as a criminal practitioner Civil Contingencies Act 2004 as an alternative to 28 days’ for about 20 years, both prosecuting and defending. I detention? If we answer those questions, I am sure that know that some Members, and some other people in the we can make progress overall. country, are perhaps not convinced by the civil liberties argument on 28-day detention. They ask why we should provide protection to people who want to commit criminal 5.6 pm offences. Instead of the civil liberties perspective, I wish Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The right hon. Member to give a practical one—do we, the police or the law for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) treated us to a enforcement agencies actually need a 28-day limit? medley of his greatest hits from previous debates, and Members should be aware of the type of evidence the shadow Home Secretary performed his cover version that the police gather, especially when monitoring terrorists of some of his arguments. However, let us remember or people they believe are going to be terrorists. There is that the main issues in previous debates were the threshold intrusive surveillance, with probes in people’s homes test, post-charge questioning and intercept evidence. It and cameras outside them. Every single text or e-mail is important, in the context of the review and any they send is recorded by the intelligence services, who decisions taken in six months if the order is passed also keep every phone call they make. Are Members today, that the House fully and properly understands really telling me that with all that evidence before them, those issues. they still need 28 days to interrogate people in a police We were told earlier that a senior person who dealt station? with counter-terrorism was not aware of the threshold As someone who has dealt with anti-terror cases and test. Although it was not mentioned in the Home Secretary’s seen the evidence that comes in, and even taking away announcement yesterday, I imagine that she is taking the civil liberties argument, I know as a practitioner six months to conduct a review because she wants to that law enforcement agents do not need 28 days to roll the pitch on several issues so that, when the debate interrogate people. They have all the information and takes place, Opposition Front Benchers cannot accuse evidence before them. As we know, guidance on the her of a knee-jerk reaction to the Lib Dem manifesto Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 allows for and she can show that any change has been on the basis various surveillance methods and intrusions to take of thorough review. I understand the tactic. However, I place. will vote against the order because I never believed on principle in 28-day detention. Like others, I found myself 5.4 pm taken hostage and having to vote for 28 days because it Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) was the only way to stop three months’ detention. (Con): I am a rather rare bird in politics—a Conservative Let us also remember that counter-terrorism measures defender of the Human Rights Act 1998, which I regard can be—some have proved to be—counter-productive. as the codification of 800 years of British common law. Not only internment, but a host of counter-terrorism Let me briefly draw attention to the previous measures were counter-productive in Northern Ireland. Government’s appalling record, which is perpetuated in The Democratic Unionist party advocated and cheerled the suggestion that there is an intrinsic tension between many of them, which ended up assisting the terrorists, liberty and security. Security often relies on a clear partly by alienating the community from the police and understanding of the commitment of a Government making the job of community policing hard and even and a nation to liberty. I massively welcome the emphasis impossible. of the new Government and the new Home Secretary on freedom, and the suggestion that the order is a Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Will the hon. temporary measure is most welcome. My right hon. Gentleman give way? Friend’s personal commitment to 14 days is noted, and the freedom Bill, the crackdown on CCTV and the Mark Durkan: No, because the Home Secretary needs collection of DNA, and the extension of the Freedom time to wind up the debate. of Information Act are all welcome. In the previous debate, we were told about the comments Today is Bastille day. We should never forget that of chief constables. I do not know the collective noun Edmund Burke rightly predicted that it would be followed for chief constables, but they were all lined up in support 1029 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1030 Terrorism Terrorism [Mark Durkan] afterwards if he wants to make a speech to me—[Interruption.] I can assure him that that was not of 28 days. I assume that it will take six months to sort a comment on the name of Paisley. out their line and get them on a different course. However, The order is a temporary measure to continue 28 days I recall among the good contributions in previous debates pre-charge detention for just six months. That enables about 28-day detention those of the now Attorney-General. us to look at pre-charge detention in the counter-terrorism He clearly signalled before the election his opposition review, and to find a solution that reduces the limit from to 28 days and said that the policy would be reviewed. It 28 days while ensuring that the police have the powers is therefore not true that only the Liberals made such a they need to keep us safe from those out there who proposal. would wish us ill. As Opposition Front Benchers discover that they Question put. need to change their position on immigration, I appeal to them to wake up to civil liberties. The House divided: Ayes 354, Noes 47. Division No. 24] [5.13 pm The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I suspect that my distaste AYES for 28 days is shared by many, on both sides of the Adams, Nigel Byles, Dan House. The question is how best to get rid of it and how Afriyie, Adam Cable, rh Vince best to ensure that in doing so, we have covered the Aldous, Peter Cairns, Alun contingencies so that we are seen to have acted responsibly. Alexander, rh Danny Cameron, rh Mr David In that way, the line taken by my right hon. Friend the Allen, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Alan Home Secretary deserves support. Amess, Mr David Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Andrew, Stuart Carmichael, Mr Alistair Mark Durkan: We hear what the Attorney-General Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carmichael, Neil says. He indicates that the motion is about positioning Bacon, Mr Richard Carswell, Mr Douglas and lining things up. Bagshawe, Ms Louise Cash, Mr William Baker, Norman Chishti, Rehman Again, whoever is elected Leader of the Opposition Baker, Steve Chope, Mr Christopher to present a new, improved and restored Labour party Baldry, Tony Clappison, Mr James next year must say that the party has gone back to its Baldwin, Harriett Clark, rh Greg better instincts on civil liberties. Barclay, Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Barker, Gregory Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey 5.11 pm Baron, Mr John Collins, Damian Barron, rh Mr Kevin Colvile, Oliver Mrs May: In the time available to me, it will not be Barwell, Gavin Cox, Mr Geoffrey possible to mention all the speeches made in the debate. Bayley, Hugh Crabb, Stephen However, the debate has in many ways shown the House Bebb, Guto Crockart, Mike at its best. People have made thoughtful and serious Beith, rh Sir Alan Crouch, Tracey contributions on the matter in hand. They spoke from Bellingham, Mr Henry Davidson, Mr Ian the heart and passionately on issues about which they Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, David T. C. feel deeply. Berry, Jake (Monmouth) I shall simply reiterate what I said in my opening Betts, Mr Clive Davies, Geraint Bingham, Andrew Davies, Glyn speech. The proposal in the pre-charge detention order Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Philip is for a temporary measure that will enable us to look Birtwistle, Gordon Dinenage, Caroline again at the 28-day period of pre-charge detention, and Blackman, Bob Djanogly, Mr Jonathan at how to reduce it, during the review on counter-terrorism Blackwood, Nicola Dodds, rh Mr Nigel measures. Blunkett, rh Mr David Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and the Blunt, Mr Crispin Donohoe, Mr Brian H. right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) challenged Boles, Nick Dorries, Nadine me on why I was not going straight away to 14 days, Bone, Mr Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie having said that that is my personal preference. The Bottomley, Peter Drax, Richard former is correct in thinking that we want to look at the Bradley, Karen Duddridge, James Brady, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain matter in the round alongside other counter-terrorism Brake, Tom Dunne, Mr Philip legislation, and not simply pick it off and deal with it as Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael one issue. I can tell the latter that it is my duty to this Brazier, Mr Julian Ellison, Jane House and to the country as a Minister to look at such Bridgen, Andrew Ellman, Mrs Louise issues responsibly and to consider all the arguments, Brine, Mr Steve Ellwood, Mr Tobias and not merely to say that my view should necessarily Brokenshire, James Elphicke, Charlie hold supreme. My views will inform my final decision, Brooke, Annette Eustice, George but it is right and proper for me to consider all the Browne, Mr Jeremy Evans, Graham arguments before I take that decision. Bruce, Fiona Evans, Jonathan Bruce, rh Malcolm Evennett, Mr David Ian Paisley: Will the Home Secretary give way on that Buckland, Mr Robert Fabricant, Michael point? Burley, Mr Aidan Fallon, Michael Burns, Mr Simon Farron, Tim Mrs May: I am sorry, but I have very little time Burrowes, Mr David Featherstone, Lynne left—about one minute—so I will not give way. I am Burstow, Mr Paul Field, rh Mr Frank sure that the hon. Gentleman will be able to find me Burt, Lorely Field, Mr Mark 1031 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1032 Terrorism Terrorism Foster, Mr Don Johnson, Joseph Patel, Priti Stewart, Iain Fox,rhDrLiam Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stewart, Rory Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Straw, rh Mr Jack Freeman, George Jones, Graham Penning, Mike Streeter, Mr Gary Freer, Mike Jones, Mr Kevan Penrose, John Stride, Mel Fullbrook, Lorraine Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Fuller, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Stunell, Andrew Garnier, Mark Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Gauke, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swales, Ian George, Andrew Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Swayne, Mr Desmond Gibb, Mr Nick Laing, Mrs Eleanor Poulter, Dr Daniel Swinson, Jo Gilbert, Stephen Lamb, Norman Pound, Stephen Swire, Mr Hugo Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Syms, Mr Robert Glen, John Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Tapsell, Sir Peter Glindon, Mrs Mary Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Thurso, John Goggins, rh Paul Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Timms, rh Stephen Goldsmith, Zac Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Goodwill, Mr Robert Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Gove, rh Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tredinnick, David Graham, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Truss, Elizabeth Grant, Mrs Helen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Turner, Mr Andrew Gray, Mr James Lewis, Brandon Robathan, Mr Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Green, Damian Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Hugh Uppal, Paul Greening, Justine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Vaizey, Mr Edward Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lidington, Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vickers, Martin Griffiths, Andrew Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rogerson, Dan Walker, Mr Charles Gummer, Ben Lloyd, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Gyimah, Mr Sam Lopresti, Jack Rudd, Amber Wallace, Mr Ben Halfon, Robert Lord, Jonathan Russell, Bob Ward, Mr David Hames, Duncan Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Weatherley, Mike Hammond, rh Mr Philip Luff, Peter Sandys, Laura Webb, Steve Hammond, Stephen Lumley, Karen Scott, Mr Lee Hancock, Matthew Macleod, Mary Selous, Andrew Wharton, James Hancock, Mr Mike Mann, John Shannon, Jim Wheeler, Heather Hands, Greg Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant White, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Whittaker, Craig Harper, Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Sheerman, Mr Barry Whittingdale, Mr John Harrington, Richard McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, Alec Wiggin, Bill Harris, Rebecca McCrea, Dr William Simmonds, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Hart, Simon McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, David Williams, Roger Harvey, Nick McPartland, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Stephen Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Williamson, Gavin Hayes, Mr John Menzies, Mark Smith, Miss Chloe Wilson, Mr Rob Heald, Mr Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Henry Wilson, Sammy Heath, Mr David Michael, rh Alun Smith, Julian Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, Maria Smith, Sir Robert Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hemming, John Mills, Nigel Soames, Nicholas Wright, Simon Henderson, Gordon Milton, Anne Soubry, Anna Yeo, Mr Tim Hendrick, Mark Moore, rh Michael Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Young, rh Sir George Hendry, Charles Mordaunt, Penny Spencer, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Stanley, rh Sir John Hillier, Meg Morris, Anne Marie Stephenson, Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Hinds, Damian Morris, David Stevenson, John Mr Shailesh Vara and Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, James Stewart, Bob Jeremy Wright Hollingbery, George Mosley, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Mowat, David NOES Holloway, Mr Adam Munt, Tessa Hopkins, Kris Murphy, rh Paul Abbott, Ms Diane Godsiff, Mr Roger Horwood, Martin Murray, Sheryll Ali, Rushanara Hilling, Julie Howarth, rh Mr George Murrison, Dr Andrew Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Howarth, Mr Gerald Nash, Pamela Corbyn, Jeremy Hood, Mr Jim Howell, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Crausby, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin Hughes, Simon Newton, Sarah Danczuk, Simon Hosie, Stewart Hunter, Mark Nokes, Caroline Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Hurd, Mr Nick Nuttall, Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Jackson, Glenda Illsley, Mr Eric Offord, Mr Matthew Durkan, Mark Keen, Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Ollerenshaw, Eric Edwards, Jonathan Lavery, Ian James, Margot Opperman, Guy Engel, Natascha Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Javid, Sajid Ottaway, Richard Flynn, Paul Lucas, Caroline Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paice, Mr James Gardiner, Barry MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Johnson, rh Alan Paisley, Ian Gilmore, Sheila McDonnell, John Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Glindon, Mrs Mary Mercer, Patrick 1033 Prevention and Suppression of 14 JULY 2010 1034 Terrorism Qureshi, Yasmin Vaz, rh Keith European External Action Service Robertson, Angus Weir, Mr Mike Rotheram, Steve Whiteford, Dr Eilidh [Relevant document: The Eighteenth Report of the Sanders, Mr Adrian Williams, Hywel European Scrutiny Committee, Session 2009-10, HC 5-xvii.] Sarwar, Anas Williams, Mr Mark Shepherd, Mr Richard Winnick, Mr David 5.27 pm Wood, Mike Shuker, Gavin The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I beg Skinner, Mr Dennis Tellers for the Noes: to move, Soulsby, Sir Peter Pete Wishart and Umunna, Mr Chuka Mr John Leech That this House takes note of European Document Nos. 8029/10 and 11507/10, draft Council Decisions establishing the organisation and functioning of the European External Action Service; European Question accordingly agreed to. Document No. 8134/10, draft Regulation on the Financial Regulations Resolved, for the European External Action Service; and an unnumbered draft Regulation amending Staff Regulations of officials of the That the draft Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) European Communities and the conditions of employment of Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 24 June, be other servants of those Communities; and supports the Government’s approved. policy to agree to the Decision establishing the External Action Service at the Foreign Affairs Council in July 2010. It was the European Scrutiny Committee which, during the last Parliament, called for a debate on the measures to establish the European External Action Service. I am pleased to have the opportunity to update the House on recent developments, and to give Members on both sides of the House a chance to debate this important issue. The EEAS was established by the Lisbon treaty, which came into effect last year. As the House will know, my party did not support either the treaty or the creation of the EEAS, but, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told the House in June this year, the EEAS is now a fact. The challenge for the Government has been, and remains, to help to shape the service so that it both respects the competence of member states over foreign policy, and at the same time provides for a more cohesive and effective diplomatic voice for the European Union collectively on issues on which the EU, speaking as a whole in support of an agreed common position, carries more clout than member states acting on their own.

Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What will happen on the many occasions when the United Kingdom is on a completely different page from the European Union, which seems to be the case more and more frequently? Will the EEAS be making proposals with which this country vehemently disagrees?

Mr Lidington: If the high representative, Lady Ashton, and the EEAS are to represent a common EU position on an aspect of foreign policy, they can do so only on the basis of a foreign policy mandate that has been approved unanimously by all 27 member states. We have the safeguard that if the United Kingdom wishes to exercise a right of veto and prevent a common position from being reached on a particular aspect of foreign policy, that power remains with us.

Philip Davies: I do not wish to delay the Minister unduly, but I do not understand for the life of me why he has so little faith in British ambassadors’ ability to represent this country’s opinions, given that presumably the diplomatic services of other countries are perfectly capable of representing those countries’ views.

Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend misunderstands me if he thinks I have any lack of confidence in the capabilities of our network of ambassadors and high commissioners around the world, but it is the Government’s judgment 1035 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1036 that there are areas where it makes sense for the 27 member Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): My states of the European Union to speak with one voice if hon. Friend mentioned Baroness Ashton, which reminds they can. Later in my speech I will give some examples me that there was a big fanfare when the positions of of where I believe United Kingdom national interests EU President and Foreign Minister were announced, to have been well served by such a common approach. the point where the Labour Government at that time said that when these characters visited London they Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): That seems would stop the traffic. On the numerous occasions to be a change of policy from when the current Foreign when either of them has visited London, have there Secretary was on the Opposition Benches, when he said been any congestion issues? exactly the opposite. Mr Lidington: I can assure my hon. Friend that, based on the various conversations I have had with Mr Lidington: I know that my hon. Friend has adopted Baroness Ashton in the past few weeks, she has no wish a position that is profoundly sceptical not only of the whatever to interfere with the free flow of London EEAS but of Britain’s membership of the European traffic. It is a good sign that the High Representative, Union and of the EU as a whole, but I must tell him who is now assuming her office, is someone who is that the key difference between then and now is that the focused on practical action rather than on glitz, glamour, treaty of Lisbon has been ratified by all 27 member motorcades and red carpets. That is an important difference states of the EU, and it is therefore now in force as a between her approach and the approach that a possible matter of both European and domestic law. As our alternative candidate might have adopted. [HON.MEMBERS: right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear at the “Name him!”] time when ratification was completed, that alters the I believe that the political agreement reached between terms of trade, and we as a party agreed while still in the High Representative and the European Parliament opposition that if we formed a Government we would about the structure and accountability of the EEAS work within that new basis established by the Lisbon provides the safeguards the British Government were treaty. seeking, particularly those we sought on the competence of member states over foreign policy. That was no mean achievement, for we need to be clear about one thing. Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I Those who argued that the ratification of Lisbon would too am a huge respecter of British ambassadors, but the somehow automatically bring an end to turf wars between last thing I would want them to do is design development different European institutions, or that it would satisfy programmes, which was at one stage the suggestion for the ambitions of those seeking to replace national with the role of the EEAS. Negotiations shifted that position, supra-national control over foreign policy, were plain but can the Minister give the House any further information wrong in those assumptions. now as to whether there is clarity yet about who will The European Parliament demanded to be given a have responsibility for the programming of development much greater say over the running of the EEAS. In spending? particular, it wanted the right to hold hearings on the appointment of heads of EU delegations; it wanted the Mr Lidington: Yes. In the division of duties set out in appointment of political deputies to the High the decision we are debating this evening, the EEAS Representative; and it even sought to make the entire and the High Representative will have responsibility for EEAS part of the Commission. The Commission sought strategic decisions about the priorities of the EU’s for itself an extensive representational role. Others wanted development programme, but the Development to extend the remit of the EEAS to include the provision Commissioner and his team within the Commission of consular services. will remain responsible for the design and implementation Had these proposals been accepted, they would have of particular development programmes. added up to a major encroachment by both the European For this to work effectively, there clearly needs to be a Parliament and the Commission into areas of policy meeting of minds between the High Representative and that are, as set out in the treaties, clearly the responsibility the Development Commissioner. Certainly when I have of member states. We, working with France and other discussed this matter both with Baroness Ashton and countries that shared our view that the EEAS should be with the Development Commissioner—whom I met in led by the member states and should not be under the Brussels last week—they were both very confident that thumb of the European Parliament, successfully resisted the package that has been agreed provided for a sensible those proposals. As a result, the draft decision we are division of responsibility, and also that the transfer to debating this evening is a framework that respects British the EEAS of a number of staff working in the Commission foreign policy objectives and allows us to establish an on development would give the EEAS the expertise in external action service that does not replace national development policy to enable it to take those strategic diplomatic action, but can complement and add value decisions. to it. As article 3.1 of the draft decision says, in terms: “The EEAS shall support and work in cooperation with the I have to say to the hon. Member for Harrow West diplomatic services of the Member States”. (Mr Thomas), however, that this is one area where the The EEAS does not mean a big new role for the EU British Government continue to have reservations about in international affairs or shifts in competence; indeed, the final package. We would have preferred a slightly we will very carefully police any claims or action to the larger shift of people with development expertise into contrary. the EEAS to make certain that it had the required expertise, but the two people most directly responsible Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): My hon. for implementing this policy seem to be satisfied with Friend is making a very good case, and I speak as the measure in its current form. somebody who is not in favour of British withdrawal 1037 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1038

[Mr James Clappison] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): I welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box for the first from the European Union and who recognises, in the time when I have been in the Chamber. I believe that words of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, Labour went through eight Ministers for Europe, so he that we are where we are. However, I hope that my hon. may have a longer tenure than some of ours; I am sure Friend is not advancing the case that because we have that he will do his best. Just for the record, when we sent obtained one or two safeguards in relation to the this document for debate before the election there was, construction of the EEAS, that invalidates the principled as he mentioned, a bid from the European Parliament objection that we maintained throughout the treaty of for three deputies—I believe it calls them secretaries- Lisbon proceedings to both the creation of the EEAS general—and hearings. Could he explain to the House and the position of the High Representative. We are just exactly what the final agreement was on the accountability mitigating the damaging consequences, are we not? of the EEAS to the European Parliament? I note that this has all gone through and been rubber-stamped by Mr Lidington: I am certainly not resiling from anything this Government, without this Parliament having a that I or my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary European Scrutiny Committee to ask them to make said when we were speaking from the Opposition Benches. themselves accountable to their Parliament. So nobody But as my hon. Friend has acknowledged, we are in the knows what the Minister agreed when he went to Europe. legal and constitutional position in which we find ourselves, and in those circumstances I believe it to be the duty of Mr Lidington: I regret the fact that the European the Government of the United Kingdom to fashion the Scrutiny Committee in the Commons has not yet been best way forward we can, in alliance with like-minded re-established, so there has not been the opportunity for member states, to provide the maximum possible safeguards a debate within that Committee before the House as a for the freedom of individual European nations to act whole was invited to take a decision. I took responsibility in pursuit of national interests when it comes to foreign for deciding that the best way forward in the circumstances policy. was to make provision, through the usual channels, for a debate on the Floor of the House, so that all Members Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Whatever had the opportunity to debate this matter before the the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war, would it not have recess. Had we delayed bringing this forward for debate been an interesting situation if the High Representative until the autumn, there would have been at least equal had been in place and had been trying to represent the cause for complaint on the part of right hon. and hon. whole of the European Union at that time, because Members. different countries were taking very different positions? The hon. Gentleman asked me about the accountability I would like the Minister to spell something out. When of the EEAS to the European Parliament. It will be the High Representative is going around the world accountable in financial terms to the European Parliament, putting a particular slant on a European policy that we in the same way as other organisations within the EU oppose completely, how are we going to make sure that are accountable for the way in which they spend European we can tell the world, and a particular country, that we Union money. The High Representative is going to have a position different from that of the European make verbal reports to the European Parliament at Union? regular intervals, but she is not accountable to it in Mr Lidington: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for policy terms, nor will it have the right to vet, or hold the that question, because he brings me to the next passage equivalent of confirmation hearings on, the appointment in my speech. The important point is that the EEAS will of heads of EU delegations to various capitals around have two key functions, the first of which is to speak on the world. behalf of a common position on foreign policy agreed Mr Ellwood: I am pleased to see my hon. Friend in his unanimously by the Council and embodied in a mandate place and starting to scrutinise EU legislation in a way given by the Council to the High Representative. So in that we have not seen before, rather than taking the the case of Iraq, or any comparable foreign policy issue tick-box approach that we saw from the Labour party. where member states were divided, that unanimity—and Concerns are expressed on both sides of the House hence that mandate—would not exist. Therefore, the about the duplication in the EU. It still has two Parliament High Representative and the EEAS would not be entitled buildings, it has a European Defence Agency that tries either to speak or to act in the way that my hon. Friend to mimic what NATO does, and it is still trying to build fears. a satellite system, Galileo, which duplicates the free The second responsibility of the EEAS is to support global positioning system operated by the United States. the Commission in implementing the external aspects Will my hon. Friend ensure that he keeps the EU’s of policies over which the Commission already, under ambitions in check, that there is a threshold for how far the treaties, has competence, such as international trade. European countries can come together and work together, The fact that the High Representative is now, in effect, and that there is clarity about where that stops and wearing two hats, whereby she is accountable to the sovereign power takes over? Council for common foreign and security policy decisions but also works as a Commissioner on those matters that Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend invites me to trespass are properly the responsibility of the Commission, means on some policy areas that are properly the responsibility that we have the potential for a rather more cohesive of other Government Departments, but I will not be international engagement by the EU than has previously tempted too far in that direction. The Government are been the case. The Government would like this new collectively committed to seeking the greatest possible institutional arrangement to complement our own value for money from every part of the European commitment to an active British foreign policy and help Union organisation and to ensuring that pressure from to deliver the diplomatic objectives of the United Kingdom. within European Union institutions to extend competence 1039 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1040 is resisted. I hope that my hon. Friend will be reassured, stability, human rights and the rule of law entrenched in too, if I repeat to him now that it is the Government’s that part of our continent, but that is not a goal that the intention later this year to introduce legislation, as UK can secure on its own. It is not an exaggeration to promised in the coalition’s programme for government, say that the situation in the western Balkans is a litmus to require a referendum and a vote by the people of the test of any EU aspiration to take on an effective diplomatic United Kingdom before any future treaty change that role. We hope that the EAS will make the Balkans one transfers further powers from this House to European of its highest priorities and that the new institutional institutions. arrangements will make it possible to pursue our common objectives with greater cohesion and consistency than Michael Connarty: In keeping with what has been was possible before. called the “tick-box approach”—an approach that won My second example is the threat to maritime trade the European Scrutiny Committee the inquisitor of the and the safety of voyagers posed by pirates operating year award, which has never been won when a Conservative off the coast of Somalia. Already, the different arms of has held the position of Chair—I want to point out that the EU are beginning to work more effectively together: the Minister has not answered the question. The bid security is a member state and Council responsibility, from the European Parliament was to have three deputy but development falls to the Commission. The new secretaries-general from each of the political parties in arrangements maintain the focus on poverty alleviation, the European Parliament who would substitute for the but better co-ordination within the single framework of High Representative. What happened to that bid? the EAS makes it possible to get development money spent on building new prisons in Kenya to incarcerate Mr Lidington: That proposal did not succeed. The pirates, which helps us to achieve our shared security position on deputising when the High Representative is objectives. If the EAS works effectively, the bringing absent will depend very much on the area of competence together of the Commission and Council arms of EU involved in that meeting. The High Representative will external policy under the aegis of the High Representative, have three options. She will be able to appoint a senior instead of their remaining in separate institutions as member of her official team, once that team is in place, now, ought to make it possible to achieve a more to speak in her place. She will be able to ask a fellow joined-up policy in tackling other challenges, such as commissioner to represent her when the item being Afghanistan and Kosovo. discussed is something that properly under the treaty falls to the competence of the Commission. When it The EAS is not going to be some kind of elixir to comes to a matter to do with foreign or security policy, cure all diplomatic ills and we have to be realistic about she is also free to invite the Foreign Minister of a what it can achieve. It will be able to act only where member state to act on her behalf. I hope that I am not there is a common position, as the High Representative breaking some confidences if I say that she is already can advocate a foreign policy position only on the basis making good use of that last option. She has asked the of a unanimous mandate from the Foreign Ministers of Foreign Minister of Hungary to stand in for her at a member states. As the example of Iraq, which my hon. forthcoming meeting between the EU and the Association Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil of Southeast Asian Nations. We have an example there Parish) cited, illustrates, there are no institutional solutions of member states being seen to be clearly in the driving to problems that, at root, require both political will and seat and of powers not simply being ceded automatically consistent, shared views. to the supranational institutions. The High Representative has made a very good start to her challenging role. She has an impossible job—almost Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I am three jobs, in fact: High Representative, British concerned about value for money. I am surprised that Commissioner in Brussels and chair of the Foreign the European Union will be able to achieve the development Affairs Council. She has been criticised for not being at the EAS on the basis of budget neutrality, unless it has two different ministerial meetings that were held in two already put in a massive budget. I am also concerned different countries at the same time, but that seems about the duplication that has already been mentioned. more than a little unfair. I am told that she has 400 days Will my hon. Friend assure me that we might even try to of appointments in the year, and she does not yet really get a rebate if we do not need the EAS to do certain have a proper department to help her. The Conservatives things on our behalf, including military planning, military wished her well when she embarked on her task and my missions and so on? right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I are already working closely with her. Mr Lidington: I was going to say more about the budget a little later in my speech. I hope that my hon. Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): My hon. Friend has Friend will bear with me if I try to make some progress. touched on a number of the difficulties for the High I shall respond later to the points that she was making Representative in terms of timing and her programme. about the budget, and if she wants to intervene again I Does she not have another problem in that some of her shall try to make time for her to do so. functions are based on democratic decision making, In response to what my hon. Friend the Member for such as those in the Council, while others are based on Shipley (Philip Davies) said, I want to give a couple of her role in the Commission, which is an undemocratic examples to illustrate that it is possible for the new function, and others still involve a kind of quasi-democracy? institutional arrangements to complement an active Does he acknowledge that that is likely to create a great British foreign policy. The first example concerns political deal of confusion and uncertainty and that it could stability in the western Balkans, which is incomplete cause considerable damage to the clarity that is needed and fragile. The Government strongly believe that it is in the very complicated and extremely dangerous world in the United Kingdom’s interests to have political that we now inherit? 1041 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1042

Mr Lidington: Those differences in competence exist Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favour of the draft already in the structure of European external policy decision very recently. Subject to the views of the House that is being replaced by the EAS. I have been impressed and other national Governments, the General Affairs by the High Representative’s determination to address Council of 26 July should be in a position to adopt the seriously the problems that my hon. Friend identifies. decision. Agreement on the accompanying changes to He is correct to warn of the risk that the creation of the the staff and financial regulations will follow in the EAS will be taken by some as an opportunity for autumn, and Parliament will have the opportunity to competence creep and to establish a more active and scrutinise those later measures. ambitious role for supranational European institutions I should add a word on the staff. In his speech on than was envisaged when the EAS was set up or than is 1 July, the Foreign Secretary emphasised the need to provided for in the treaties. The assurance I give him is increase the number of UK nationals in European that the British Government are absolutely determined institutions. The establishment of a new service gives us to ensure that the rights and competences of member an opportunity to promote British officials right from states are fully respected, not just by the High the start, and we have a large number of British diplomats Representative, but by every other institution that forms with an interest in moving across to the EAS for part of part of the European Union. their career. Staff in the institutions are independent, but we all know that different nationalities bring different Mr Bone: Will my hon. Friend give way? perspectives, and we need more people with a British Mr Lidington: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I outlook to help to secure the UK interest for the long want to make some progress, although I will try to give term. Our starting point in the EAS is good: already, way again a little later. about 8% of the staff of Relex—the Commission directorate that will initially form the bulk of the new service—are We are content for EU delegations to take on some British; they are concentrated at the more senior levels representational roles, when we want them to do so and and include about a quarter of the directors. have mandated them to do so. Supporting the EU in having enhanced rights in the UN General Assembly is James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): a good example. We want the High Representative to be On value for money, will my hon. Friend indicate the able to do what the rotating presidency used to do: to cost and resource implications of the further staffing of speak and act in support of an agreed common position. British diplomats in the European Union as a result of The Foreign Secretary explained that policy in more setting up the new institution? detail in a written ministerial statement earlier today. If the General Assembly agrees, the High Representative Mr Lidington: Before I respond directly to my hon. will have the rights necessary, and no more than the Friend, I should add that there will be intense competition rights necessary, to fulfil the representational role previously for appointments, which will quite rightly be made on carried out by the rotating presidency. That includes the merit. However, we are determined to fight for a good right to speak after the member states have spoken, but share of the senior positions in the EAS because we not the right to a seat among individual UN members think that we have first-rate British candidates to put and certainly not the right to vote in the General forward. Assembly.These arrangements will not give EU delegations We are clear that we do not plan to put aside extra enhanced rights in United Nations agencies or in other money for the EAS in the long term. We accept that international organisations. getting the service started and bringing in national The Government will judge any further proposal for secondees to serve alongside those who will transfer to the EU to act in a representative capacity case by case the EAS from existing posts in the external service of and on its merits. Critically, we will take a view on the Commission or the Council will involve some additional whether such a move would help to achieve British start-up costs, for which we are planning. The additional interests and whether any proposal would compromise cost for the United Kingdom is about £1.1 million, but the lead role for member states over foreign policy that that is before any calculation of the abatement is taken is explicitly provided for in the treaty. into account. Some bodies, including the Commission and some of Mr Clappison: I think that the Minister is citing a the smaller member states, want EU delegations to take written answer that he gave me. May I take him away a greater role in representing EU positions around the from the EU accounting procedures with which some of world than we think is either desirable or legally consistent us are familiar? The External Action Service will have with the treaty. Those ambitions are not secret. For 136 embassies. It already employs 700 staff—he looks example, the Commission has made it clear that it puzzled, but that comes from a written answer that he wants EU delegations to take over responsibility to act gave me—and might have thousands more. Without not only on policy areas where there is clear EU competence, talking about accounting manoeuvres or additional but on those areas where competence is shared by the amounts, will he tell us the cost of those 136 embassies EU and member states, even if competence has not and the hundreds, if not thousands, of staff employed been exercised at EU level previously. In our view, such by the EAS? a move would not be acceptable. I have written to the Chairs of the two Scrutiny Committees today to highlight Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend overlooks the fact that that risk and to make it clear that the Government will the EAS, as he describes it, will simply be the sum of be vigilant to defend the interests and treaty rights of existing EU missions and activities that already form not only the United Kingdom but all member states. part of the external work of the Commission and the The initial EAS decision was taken by the Council on Council, which are funded from within the existing EU 26 April, after negotiations between Lady Ashton, the budget. The British Government’s objective is to ensure, European Parliament and the Council. The European despite the acknowledged additional start-up costs, that 1043 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1044 we use the bringing together of disparate external functions European matters, so I am sure that he will do a very to seek savings by eliminating duplication. The EAS fine job. I think he suggested that Cathy Ashton had budget is due for review in 2013; our objective is to abandoned glamour, but I would gently say to him that ensure that by that stage we have got rid of what we that is a foul calumny on a very fine woman. However, I intend will be a temporary spike due to start-up costs, am glad that he is very supportive of the work that she and managed to achieve savings and better value for is doing. money. The EAS should be about the effective delivery of foreign policy, not new and expensive bureaucracy. Mr Ellwood: Glitz.

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister Chris Bryant: I think that the Minister said glitz and did not answer the question posed by the hon. Member glamour. Perhaps Cathy will defend herself. for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) about overall cost. Will The important point is that we have before us a he give the House a guarantee that if there is to be any slightly difficult process. I fully understand why it has breach of budget neutrality, he and his Government been difficult for the Government to bring things before will resist that by vetoing any increase above current a European Scrutiny Committee, though I gently say expenditure? that it would have been better to have had a European Scrutiny Committee in place by now. I gather that we Mr Lidington: We will certainly resist any further will have a splendid cream-suited Chair, in the shape of increase in current expenditure because we want maximum the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), but it would be value for money from the EAS, as we do from every good if we had a full Committee and if that were able to other arm of the European Union. I welcomed Baroness get on with its work as fast as possible. As the Minister Ashton’s pledge on 8 July that she would do everything will know, I was taking this business through the House possible at a difficult time in the run-up to the general election, “to maximise cost efficiencies, avoid duplication and strengthen and I tried as far as possible to keep the two Committees financial discipline.” in the Lords and in the Commons informed about the She said: process of the discussions that were going on at every “I want a lean and efficient Service that assures best value for stage. But the fact that we have now had several months money, staffed by the best and the brightest from across the without a European Scrutiny Committee does not enable European Union.” this House to do the business of scrutinising these and The Government worked hard to defend the national many other decisions better. interest and did all that we could to ensure that the I would just ask the Minister briefly, on the matter of service continued to respect national competences and the intergovernmental conference, which was not announced recognised the central importance of intergovernmentalism to the House and which was held in the margins of in framing the European Union’s common foreign policy. another meeting and agreed to by the Prime Minister Through a robust and pragmatic approach, we have without any announcement to the House, if he could at secured a framework for the EAS that respects UK some point provide us with the minutes of that conference. interests, that can strengthen and support national They have not yet been available anywhere, either on diplomacy, and that will not lead to additional costs in EUROPA or in the Library of the House. the long term. This is only the start, however, and we now need to work intensively with our European partners Mr Bone: I am interested that the Opposition will not to make it a reality. I commend the motion to the seek to divide the House on this. Has not the shadow House. Minister just made a very good case of the fact that the House has not scrutinised the business properly? Would not that be a good reason to seek to divide the House? 6.5 pm Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a great delight to Chris Bryant: I shall be voting on the substance of the follow the Minister for Europe and to be able to welcome matter, which I wholeheartedly support and, I have to the conversion of Aylesbury. I had not realised that say—this will come as a great disappointment to the Brussels was on the road from Aylesbury to Damascus, hon. Gentleman—in words almost identical to those but clearly it is. There is more rejoicing in heaven when used by the Minister. No, I do not think it is a good one sinner repenteth and joineth the pro-European reason to seek to divide the House, but if the hon. cause than when the 99 stay over there. It is a delight to Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) wishes to do know that he has hidden his pro-European light under so, obviously he is free so to do . such a nasty bushel for such a long time. I was obviously The reason we support the European External Action tempted to think of ways of uniting with his Eurosceptic Service, and have for some time now, is that we believe Back Benchers and finding a way of voting against the that we are moving, as the Foreign Secretary himself motion, but as half the papers have my name all over said earlier this year in a speech, into a much more them and were negotiated by me, it would be a bit multilateral world, where we cannot just accept that opportunistic, even for me, so the Opposition decided there will be two great powers—the United States of against that. America and China. We have to make sure that our The Minister has a very fine Europe team in the power, both exercised independently ourselves and through Foreign Office to support him, and I would like briefly the European Union, is used to its best effect. We know to pay tribute in particular to Kim Darroch, the UK’s that in relation to the emerging economies of China, permanent representative in Brussels, who does an extremely Russia, India, Mexico and Brazil, it is all the more fine job. The Minister also has fine support in his important the Europe takes a united stance if we are to private office among those who work with him on achieve effective outcomes. 1045 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1046

[Chris Bryant] states, support the member states in their diplomatic relations and in their role of providing consular protection We also know that the EU’s previous foreign relations to union citizens in third countries on a resource-neutral structure has been grossly inefficient, thus an individual basis. country has a desk officer for the European Council Two elements of that are vital, but they sound misguided. and a desk officer for the European Commission, and, First, “on a resource-neutral basis”, means that no on top of that, two different departments within the additional money should go into the EAS to provide Commission might have desk officers. That is clearly a consular services on behalf of other countries. Secondly, duplication—not the one to which hon. Members referred the reference to article 35 of the Maastricht Treaty on earlier, but one that we want to see done away with; and European Union, as I am sure the Minister knows, that is why we support the EAS. means that the circumstances in which the EAS can provide consular services are very closely constrained. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Will the hon. The Maastricht treaty—under the provisions that John Gentleman give way? Major introduced, incidentally—makes it clear that where an individual citizen of any EU member state is Chris Bryant: Of course I give way to the honourable in a third country and their member state has no former Member of the European Parliament. representation, other member states can provide support. That happens fairly regularly. In countries where Britain Chris Heaton-Harris: Should the EAS come into has no representation, sometimes a British citizen will effect, how hopeful is the hon. Gentleman that, given be supported by other EU members. It is also true that the duplication that he just outlined, and not the duplication the services of other countries are provided to us. For to which others referred, the Commission will actually instance, in Laos, where we have no representation, the shed staff? Australians provide consular protection. Chris Bryant: The Commission does not have any In our discussions leading up to April’s Council choice, because the staff will be automatically moved meeting, I thought it very important to ensure that into the EAS. The same applies to the Council. If each countries such as Estonia and Latvia, which would country approves the measure, through their parliamentary dearly love the EU to provide consular services and processes, the move will happen automatically, so I have remove the power of member states to provide them confidence in the Commission. There are many areas throughout the world, should not see the measure as a where I do not have confidence in the Commission great cash cow. While many in the room argued forcefully shedding staff, and where the hon. Gentleman is right that we should be moving towards European consular to say that sometimes we have to ensure that it does not services, I said that we would use the British veto if that encroach on the powers of member states, but this is not proposal came forward. That is why we have the document one of them. that is now before us. When I was Europe Minister, I tried to fight for some The next issue is budget neutrality. As I said, there important principles. First, it was important to make it has been considerable duplication in the system in the absolutely clear that the head of each delegation had years thus far, whereby there are desk officers for the full power over the whole delegation, because otherwise, same country from different elements of the structure in any individual deputation in any country throughout of the European Union, and that has been counter- the world, different elements might compete against productive. I am confident, with Cathy at the helm, that each other. Although Europe might have spoken with there will be a strong insistence on ensuring that those one voice, because it had established a single mandate, duplications do not survive, and that there is therefore the individual delegation in that country might not. I no reason why the EAS should cost us more in the long am glad that we won that argument. term. I am glad, too, that we won the argument to bring the I note the Minister’s optimism when he says that in politico-military structures, the civilian planning conduct the short term this will cost us only £1.1 million more. and capability element, the crisis management and planning directorate and the EU military staff inside the EAS, Mr Lidington: I am sorry—the hon. Gentleman misheard because it would simply have been to duplicate and me. I said that there would be about £1.1 million, not make the system more complex if we had left them £1.1 billion, of additional costs for the United Kingdom. outside. I shall not take up much time, because I want to Chris Bryant: I am sorry, but the Minister misheard ensure that there is more opportunity for other Members me, because I said “million” as well. It is great to be able to participate, but I must note two areas where, to be to be entirely of one mind. honest, I felt that I had to handbag the High Representative. However, my anxiety is more about the Minister’s Indeed, there were sharp words at April’s General Affairs optimism than his numeracy. Pressures will inevitably and External Relations Council. First, I do not believe come from other member states, many of which are that the EAS should set up consular services for every going through the same process of retrenchment in country in the European Union, and I was determined their budgets and will find that that directly affects their to ensure that the text that came out of April’s Council foreign offices. When I was in the post that he now made that absolutely and abundantly clear. I confess holds, I spoke to three of my counterparts, who talked that the text that we ended up with—I am sure that all about 50% or 60% cuts in their foreign offices. In many hon. Members will have read it—is slightly complex. of those countries, there may well be a political pressure Indeed, article 5(10) states that the Union delegation towards the European Union carrying out more of shall, acting in accordance with article 35 third sub- their foreign services, and he will rightly want to be very paragraph of the TEU, and upon request of member cautious about that. Throughout the whole process of 1047 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1048 the treaty going through and the setting up of the EAS, The negotiations of the past few months have highlighted it was our clear intention that we, Britain, should be the continued existence of widely diverging views about able to fight our corner, but we also wanted the whole how the EU should make external policy, and the scale European Union in our corner. I very much hope that of the change of mindset that will be required in some that is what this measure will achieve. quarters to focus on the generation of a more seamless My final point relates to British staff in the EAS. external policy for the Union. Whether or not one Like the Minister, I hope that many diplomats in the believes that the EAS is workable or necessary in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will want to work first place, the manner in which it has been achieved there. He said that many more suddenly want to go and hardly gives rise to optimism that there can be effective work there; I do not know whether that is because they implementation of EU policy. do not like working with him or because they are fearful My hon. Friends have set out emotive views about of what is going to happen in the FCO. On a serious the EU, and on behalf of the FAC I shall simply note, one of the complexities in trying to get British concentrate on the nuts and bolts of the system and staff to work in any of the institutions of the European pose a few questions to the Minister. The assessment of Union is that they often cannot see a path back. It is not the deal between the Council and the European Parliament, only a question of whether British people speak foreign which is now before us, may depend very much on the languages, but of whether they can see a career that legal status of the additional declarations and statements takes them to Brussels and brings them back thereafter. that Baroness Ashton has now agreed to make. The I hope that at some point the Minister will be able to explanatory memorandum refers to those as enlighten the House further on those matters. “accompanying” the decision and as I wholeheartedly support the motion in the name of “forming part of the overall political agreement”. the Minister and congratulate on him on his volte-face. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify the legal status of those documents and the degree to which they 6.18 pm are relied on. Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): Like other I would welcome reassurance from the Minister that Conservative Members, I am sceptical about the Lisbon the deal now before us does not give the Commission or treaty, but we are where are. We have the European the European Parliament any greater power over the External Action Service, and it is in Britain’s interest budget for the common foreign and security policy. that it at least works. With the abandonment of the Western European Union by the previous Government, there is now a bit of a The Select Committee on Foreign Affairs has taken a lacuna in that area of oversight. close interest in the EAS, and I welcome this debate. It The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk hardly helps that the negotiations have been taking (Michael Connarty) raised the way in which the High place in Brussels when we have not had a European Representative delegates her responsibilities. The Lisbon Scrutiny Committee. However, the Foreign Affairs treaty did not create a wholly new, specially fashioned Committee is grateful that the Government and their position but was intended to encourage greater coherence predecessors have co-operated with it in providing the in the EU’s external policies simply by giving three information that it needed and, in that spirit, I hope different jobs to the same person. That raises the question that they continue to do so. of who is to deputise for the High Representative when We are able to consider today’s documents in advance she cannot be in several places at once. The Minister of the Council formally giving its approval only because responded to that point, but some further clarification High Representative Ashton has spent the past three would be welcome. How is that done? Where is the months negotiating with the European Parliament. I procedure set out and what is the authority for it? Who have to confess that having had a look at the documents, is the Foreign Minister of Hungary speaking for? I I am sceptical about whether the changes secured by the know that he is speaking for the High Representative, European Parliament amount to any major alteration but where does he get his brief and to whom does he to the likely functioning of the EAS. The Parliament report? largely won confirmation on a number of points that The new EU delegations to third countries and were either implied or explicitly set out in the Lisbon international organisations are to be upgraded from the treaty or in the Swedish presidency report on the EAS existing European Commission delegations. The increased adopted by the European Council last October. I note role of those delegations seems to me potentially one of that the explanatory memorandum to the revised draft the most significant changes resulting from the Lisbon Council decision states that it “respects the essentials” treaty, both for the EU and for national foreign ministries. of the proposals on which the Council reached political Does the Foreign Office see any need to issue specific agreement in April. Under the circumstances, I congratulate guidance to UK posts about how they should work the Government on resisting a number of demands with the new EU delegations, particularly as regards the regarding the EAS that would have been very unhelpful sharing of information and intelligence? from a British point of view. Mr Ellwood: Has my hon. Friend had the opportunity Chris Bryant: Actually, some of the most significant to meet Ambassador Ušackas, the new EU representative changes happened some time before. In particular, the in Afghanistan? He passed through London and is now battle relating to consular services was held between in Kabul, but his remit and how it sits with United October and April. Nations directives and those of the international security assistance force is unclear. We have signed up to the Richard Ottaway: That is my point, and I do not ISAF mission, but we are also part of the EU and are believe that the subsequent demands have changed things therefore expected to form part of the ambassador’s at all. mission. There is a dichotomy in interests. 1049 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1050

Richard Ottaway: I met the ambassador. For the past United Kingdom a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, it month, I have formed a Committee of one on foreign would not have come into force and we would not be affairs, and I ended up inviting Members to meet him. discussing this motion. He was fairly clear about his brief, but my hon. Friend I do not want to rehearse the argument over the makes a strong point. referendum on the Lisbon treaty except to say that the It has been suggested in some quarters that the excellent private Member’s Bill on it unfortunately did Foreign Office may close some embassies where the EU not make progress. The fact is that it would have been has a stronger presence post-Lisbon. The previous possible for the House to grant the British people a permanent under-secretary at the Foreign Office, Sir referendum even after ratification. At the end of the Peter Ricketts, suggested to the Foreign Affairs Committee day, the House is sovereign, and the British people and the Public Accounts Committee in the previous ultimately ought to have the right to decide whether we Parliament that, if anything, the arrival of the EU should have all those institutions created out of Lisbon. delegations might help the FCO’s efforts to sustain and perhaps even expand its overseas network. Sir Peter also Mr Ellwood: The right hon. Gentleman has been a said that the Foreign Office might be able to sustain or Member of this House for a number of years, and he is open small overseas posts by locating them in EU aware that the Lisbon treaty has been signed. Having a delegation buildings when suitable office space might referendum now would be a bit like asking patients in a otherwise be difficult to find. I should be grateful if the new hospital what colour they want the foundation Minister clarified that. stone to be. It is too late, hence the phrase, “We are On staffing, the previous Government told the FAC where we are.” We must mend what has been put that there would be 25 secondees to the EAS when it together. was up and running. However, in a reply to a recent parliamentary question, the figure was abandoned, and Mr Dodds: I have heard that theory, and no doubt the the response was slightly ambiguous. I should be grateful hon. Gentleman heard some of his hon. Friends debunk to the Minister for guidance on that. Have we retained it at the time. Of course it is possible for the United the secondments that we have? Are vacancies that arise Kingdom to decide that it no longer wishes to be part of open to national civil servants? Does the UK have any the consequences of the ratification of the Lisbon treaty— potential secondees in those competitions? that option is open to the House, Parliament and the In short, we are where are and we hope that the EAS British people. If what he says means that for ever and a contributes significantly to making the EU a more day we have given up the right to decide matters such as effective vehicle in the world today. The documents membership of the European Union, what treaties we before us suggest that the Government have succeeded are signed up to and what institutions we belong to, it is in securing some key points, but many questions remain a sad day for democracy in the House. The British to be answered. people who supported the Conservative leader when he offered a cast-iron guarantee on a referendum did not expect that that promise and pledge would be ditched so 6.27 pm quickly and so comprehensively. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I welcome I venture to say that that is one reason why there is a the Minister to his position. It is the first time that I disconnect between the British public at large and their have spoken in a debate that he has led as Minister for Parliament. The people do not trust politicians—such Europe. Of course, I remember him fondly from his trust is essential—because the promises that they hear days as shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. politicians make are cast aside when it suits the politicians, The experience gained there will doubtless stand him in not when it suits them. People expect promises to be good stead for the intricacies and delicacies of European honoured. They overwhelmingly believe that we should diplomacy. We wish him well. not have signed up to the Lisbon treaty and that a However, the debate is about something that the European diplomatic corps should not be created, and British people neither want nor need. If the broad mass they expect their views to be heard. Unfortunately, there of the public looked in on the debate, they would ask, is a cosy consensus between the Front Benchers of both “What on earth is this all about?” At a time of massive major parties, and indeed the Liberal Democrats, so constraint in the public expenditure system, with public people will be denied their say and a referendum. services under threat, Departments told that they might face cuts of between 25% and 40%, and our diplomatic Chris Bryant: I hate to leap to the defence of the corps told that it, too, might face huge cutbacks, we are Conservative Government, but it would surely not affect holding a debate that is based on a treaty that nobody the rest of the European Union if Britain voted against wanted and on which we were denied a referendum. the Lisbon treaty in a referendum, because the EU The hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) would continue to operate under the treaty. In all honesty, and the Minister used the expression, “We are where we the only referendum one could now have is on whether are.” That is true, but we do not need to be where we are. to leave or stay in the EU. I have great sympathy for the Minister because, while the shadow Minister teased him about a volte-face, the Mr Dodds: No doubt some hon. Members think that road to Damascus and so on, he was clearly uncomfortable that is a pretty good idea. The hon. Gentleman speaks about some of the things that he had to say. He said that of referendums, but he knows full well that he and the the motion was about mitigating the damage, and I was previous Government pledged a referendum on the worried when he seemed to get carried away with some European constitution to the British people. There is enthusiasm for the new service. However, if he and his talk of the Minister making a volte-face, but the decision party had stuck to their pledge to offer the people of the not to grant that referendum was the biggest volte-face 1051 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1052 in recent history. Of course, a distinction between the I regard this whole decision as a triumph of European Lisbon treaty and the original proposal for a European aspirations and European parliamentary ambitions over constitution was made, but much of it was spurious. reality. I am deeply worried about the manner in which The fact that we are today debating the creation of this game of multidimensional chess will play out, and I the European diplomatic service, with all that that have already indicated to my hon. Friend the Minister entails, proves the point that many of us made about my concern about the overlapping functions and the the Lisbon treaty, which is that the treaty is yet another contradictions that will emerge between the necessity of significant development in the creation of a European maintaining our bilateral relations with other countries superstate—the Minister alluded to that and to the and the extremely ambitious proposals in this decision reasons why he and his colleagues opposed the measure on global reach. It is phenomenal to imagine an external at the time. He may argue that the High Representative action service on this scale that would in any way be is unable to advance a position in the absence of a regarded as not interfering with our domestic diplomatic common position adopted by the Council of Ministers, service. but that means that on many critical issues around the I sense that my hon. Friend the Minister and my right world the High Representative and that vast diplomatic hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary know this. We debated superstructure will be sitting on their hands. the Lisbon treaty together, we were united and we had a remarkable rapprochement during those debates—contrary Philip Davies: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept to the debates over the Maastricht treaty, when I stood the irony of today’s proceedings? Earlier we were invited in this very spot and had much to say about what I to support reductions in the police grant because there thought would happen. Many people might think that is supposedly not enough public money to go around, some of the things I suggested would happen have done but we are now invited to indulge the largesse of the so, and this is one of them. European Union. Does he agree that if we are all in this I treat the whole issue of the external action service together and if we are living in the age of austerity, we with great concern for the reasons that I have given. It should make that abundantly clear to the EU? will induce a recipe for confusion—

Mr Dodds: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Like IPSA. and I am just coming on to the budget, which is critically important. He is right to ask how people in the Community Mr Cash: It is not as confusing as that, but it is will feel about this debate and the amount of expenditure getting there. attached to it, at a time when we are debating the police grant and other matters. Mr Skinner: Speaking as someone who voted against We heard the Minister talk about the extra expenditure Nice, Maastricht, Lisbon and God knows what else, I amounting to some £1.1 million in start-up costs, which may have made a slight error on the Independent he confirmed in answer to a question from the hon. Parliamentary Standards Authority. On reflection, I Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), but the cost of think IPSA should run the EEAS; that will cock it up. the EEAS is expected to reach some ¤900 million when fully operational. Some reports in the European Parliament Mr Cash rose— suggest that it will cost up to £5 billion a year to run when fully up and running. A leading German MEP, a Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman replies member of Chancellor Merkel’s party and who sits on to that witty intervention, I will remind him of what I the budget committee, was quoted in The Sunday Times am sure he already knows—that the Minister has a on 25 April as saying: right of reply and will need to be called at 6.52 pm. It is “You can only believe the claims that the service will be budget conceivable that other Members might also wish to neutral if you believe in Santa Claus.” contribute. A senior official in Baroness Ashton’s service said that Mr Cash: Having spoken for only two minutes, I can nobody took seriously the claim that the service would guarantee that I will not speak for more than five at remain budget neutral and went on: most. As for intervention of a few moments ago, I think “That’s simply not realistic, not even in the mid-term, but the the Court of Auditors might have something to say notion has to be maintained for reasons of political acceptability.” about the matters that the hon. Member for Bolsover The irony will not be lost on UK taxpayers that this (Mr Skinner) raised. After all, it has not signed off its Government, who are asking Departments to demonstrate accounts for the last 15 years. where cuts of up to 40% can be made, now endorse a I am deeply concerned about this whole operation. I service that will cost millions of pounds and that we add that in the report mentioned in the documents neither want nor need. Those of us who opposed Lisbon before us, the European Scrutiny Committee said that and the creation of the EEAS back in 2008 still oppose this important proposal is it, and I hope that we will be given the opportunity to “likely to be the most significant change in the conduct of British do so in the Lobby tonight. foreign policy for many years”, which is why a debate on the Floor of the House was, 6.37 pm exceptionally, recommended. That is the truth and the reality. I am deeply concerned that in being asked to Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I congratulate my consider the functions of the Foreign Office under this hon. Friend the Minister for Europe on his appointment. decision, there is a huge issue to do with the impact this I am sure that we will be having many useful discussions, new global diplomatic service will have on Britain’s dialogues and even cross-examinations as time goes on. ability to promote her own bilateral interests. 1053 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1054

[Mr Cash] “is nonetheless likely to be the most significant change in the conduct of British foreign policy for many years, we consider that This is not a small matter. The question is how we are this debate should be on the Floor of the House.” going to be able to maintain our own bilateral interests I still believe that that is the case. if we are suffocated by the decisions that are taken. We have encountered the question of accountability. Anybody who reads these documents in detail—I do While an election was taking place in this country, the not have time to go into that detail today—will appreciate European Parliament was using its powers under the that there is a very severe danger to the continuation of Lisbon treaty to advance a case relating to the question our bilateral interests, however hard my hon. Friend the of the three deputy secretaries who would substitute for Minister and the Foreign Secretary will work, as I know the High Representative. That case was rejected, but in they will. Given the depth, the range and the landscape fact the European Parliament achieved a great deal of this monumental creation of a new foreign service on more. There was a second Council decision following a European scale, it is difficult to see how our bilateral the one on the matter that was eventually referred to the interests can be preserved. Council on 9 July. In conclusion, there is also the declaration on political The European Parliament saw an opportunity to accountability. I would be grateful if the Minister told make a bold opening gambit in relation to those who us some of his thoughts on that. He said in evidence to would be substitutes and guardians, or protectors, of the House of Lords Select Committee last week that he the High Representative. It used the fact that staffing hoped the decision would regulations, finance regulations and the EEAS budget “end up providing a more coherent and effective platform for the would be subject to the European Parliament’s powers delivery of the EU’s engagement with the outside world.” of co-decision to advance a strong argument that it For my part, I hope that our own foreign policy will be should be consulted on matters such as the common conducted in a manner that will properly reflect the foreign and security policy. That, of course, will be interests of this country. I am happy to co-operate with subject to unanimous agreement in the Council, but the other countries throughout Europe—and, indeed, anywhere Parliament has inserted itself into the process to great else in the world—because we have a responsibility to effect. The Lisbon treaty gave it the opportunity to do so, but I am deeply worried at the way this entire enhance its ability to influence the politics and policy of legal framework is liable to subsume our own ability to a major institution. ensure our own national interests. The second decision, as the Minister said, was that the High Representative would I regard this as a mosaic, as it were, within a labyrinth, and I fear that there will be a confusion of control and “seek the views of the European Parliament on the main aspects command in military matters, in relation to Kosovo and and basic choices of policy”. our relations with Iran, for example. We need to be The Council decided that the European Parliament extremely cautious about giving this more than a very would have to be consulted on policies such as the tepid welcome. common security and defence policy, and on questions relating to the basic organisation of the EEAS central administration and political accountability. It is clear 6.44 pm that we have not only had an election, but failed to Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): establish any scrutiny arrangements in this Parliament. I am sensitive about intruding on private grief, but I am The European Parliament clearly views that agreement witnessing the acting out of a scenario in which a as meaning that it will have a significantly greater Minister who takes a very positive approach to issues influence on EU foreign policy in the future. That is relating to the European Union is surrounded by a large where we have arrived after the stages through which we number of Eurosceptic Members of Parliament who have gone. The Parliament has gained considerable had previously imagined that they were serving under a ground. It may not have made all the gains that it Eurosceptic Government. The words “a cosy consensus” demanded, but I do not think that it wanted them have been used, but I am not sure that what is happening. anyway. It wanted to make the service accountable to it. I see it more as the sweet breeze of EU realism blowing We now need assurances from the Government that through the Conservative Government. they will defend not just the common foreign and The fact is that the Lisbon treaty is in force, and will security policy and the common security and defence not be overturned. In a speech that I made on the issue, policy, but the right of this Parliament to scrutinise I described the treaty as a “tipping point” in the balance what they do and hold them to account when they go to of power between Brussels and the national Parliaments. the Council. That might serve as some small protection I hope that there will be a rearrangement of power, and against a European Parliament that might otherwise that a triangulation of forces will eventually return to us take complete control of this policy and this service in more power than the Commission, and indeed the the future. European Parliament, want us to have. For me, the key issue is the scope of the European 6.49 pm External Action Service. Paragraph 36 of the European Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is a Scrutiny Committee’s 18th report of 2009-10, published pleasure to contribute to this important debate. It is before the election, stated: important to understand what we are creating. My hon. “Given the importance of this proposal, which—the Minister’s Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies)—who I assurances on consular protection notwithstanding”— see has gained some new recruits to support him on the the then Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Back Benches—obviously takes a different view from Rhondda (Chris Bryant), is sitting in front of me now— others on how we should approach the Lisbon treaty. 1055 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1056

The phrase “We are where we are” has been used a bringing together activities that are funded by a number number of times in the debate. If we had a blank sheet of budget heads within the existing EU set-up, and in of paper, I am sure that we would not create the Lisbon some cases parts of expenditure under one budget head treaty in its current form, but I was not in favour of the are transferring to the EEAS and others are not. The dome, either— I thought it was unpopular and a wrong best estimate that we have at present is that about concept—but it was built, and then we decided to £400 million of expenditure will be required to fund the change it and make it actually work. If we choose to opt activities transferred from the Council and the Commission out of the EU, as some colleagues on both the Government into the new EEAS. The much higher figure cited by the and Opposition Benches might wish, we will certainly right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) can change our relationship with the EU and Europe from come about only if we assume that the whole of one perspective, but we will also alienate many countries, development expenditure is transferred, and that is not and we will then be unable to influence their approach going to happen. I will write to my hon. Friend the to the EU. Member for Hertsmere once we have more detailed estimates as the budgetary process continues in Brussels. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The issue, My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South however, is that many of us have a problem with the (Richard Ottaway) asked a number of specific questions. creation of this external service. We have not got into a Declarations are not legally binding. They are statements discussion about whether we should be a member state that provide a political context for a Council decision of the EU. The fact is that many of us have grave and how it will operate as it is taken forward. In concerns about this measure, and that is what we have response to his question about deputies, where a deputy—a been talking about today. Foreign Minister or anybody else—speaks on a matter covered by common foreign and security policy, that Mr Ellwood: I do not disagree with my hon. Friend. deputy must speak in support of a common position The point I am stressing, however, is that, as has been which has been agreed unanimously by all member said, we could be in a stronger position if we were to states. move British personnel into the organisation and change it into something actually worth having—and that is My hon. Friend also asked about the role of the EU what I would like. special representative in Afghanistan. He is twin-hatted already, as both the special representative and the head I do, however, have some grave concerns about EU of the European Commission offices in Afghanistan. spending at present. A great example of that is the He will, of course, work closely with other international Galileo satellite system. It has cost about £4 billion so organisations and representatives and will seek to far, and the Foreign Office budget is, I understand, complement, not duplicate, the work of, for example, about £2 billion, so there would be some huge savings ISAF. My hon. Friend further asked about whether we straight away if we were to get rid of that system. I also were committed to sending 25 British secondees to the mentioned in an intervention the concerns we have in EEAS. That was an initial figure and we are keeping it respect of NATO and the European Defence Agency. under review. However, we have a number of British They have not been answered today, and I would be candidates for the first wave of EEAS posts, and many grateful for the opportunity to speak to my hon. Friend more are interested in future vacancies. the Minister about the clear overlap that there is in respect of those two organisations. When I was serving My hon. Friend asked about the instructions and in the armed forces in Bosnia, the EU was trying to advice that the FCO might send to our own British create something of a European army, and that is posts abroad. We will be sending them instructions and wrong. The cornerstone of our defence in Europe is advice, and those instructions will be that they should NATO, and we should not try to duplicate it. co-operate with European Union missions to secure I intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for British foreign policy objectives and to influence the Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the Chair of the work of those EU delegations, in order to give priority Foreign Affairs Committee, about Ambassador Ušackas to matters on which there is a common position—for who has now been sent to Afghanistan to represent the example, the need for sanctions against the Iranian European Union. I have a question: if the EU starts nuclear programme—that will secure both European sending diktats or directives on how Afghanistan should and United Kingdom interests at the same time. We are be approached, that might overlap with the direction we also asking our posts to be extremely vigilant about any are receiving as a member of the international security evidence of competence creep at the behest of the assistance force, and— Commission or of other institutions or member states, and to report back swiftly to the Foreign Office if there is evidence of that happening. I can tell my hon. Friend Mr Speaker: Order. The House is grateful to the hon. that I have already come across examples of such reports Gentleman for his question, which can now be left to us, and we do take appropriate action and make dangling in the air—although the Minister might seek representations to protect the interest of member states. to respond to it. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) that we are not in the business of trying to 6.53 pm supplant or in any way to weaken the ability of British Mr Lidington: I thank all Members who have taken diplomats and Ministers to stand up strongly for the part in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for national interests of the United Kingdom. However, we Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) pressed me about the overall are also acknowledging that there are on occasion cost of the European External Action Service. The opportunities to promote and enhance British interests problem with putting a precise figure on that is that we in a way that also suits the common interests of the are talking about an organisation to be created by 27 member states— 1057 European External Action Service14 JULY 2010 European External Action Service 1058

6.57 pm Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Karl One and a half hours having elapsed since the Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen commencement of proceedings on the motion, the Speaker Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther put the Question (Standing Order No. 16(1)). Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark The House divided: Ayes 321, Noes 12. Hanson, rh Mr David Mercer, Patrick Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Division No. 25] [6.57 pm Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel AYES Harvey, Nick Milton, Anne Afriyie, Adam Clwyd, rh Ann Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Aldous, Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Mr Oliver Mordaunt, Penny Alexander, rh Danny Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David Morgan, Nicky Allen, Mr Graham Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, Anne Marie Amess, Mr David Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John Morris, David Andrew, Stuart Crabb, Stephen Hendry, Charles Morris, James Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Crockart, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Mosley, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Bagshawe, Ms Louise Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Baker, Norman (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Baldry, Tony Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Murrison, Dr Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Neill, Robert Barclay, Stephen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Horwood, Martin Newmark, Mr Brooks Barker, Gregory Dorries, Nadine Howell, John Newton, Sarah Baron, Mr John Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, Simon Nokes, Caroline Barwell, Gavin Drax, Richard Huhne, rh Chris Norman, Jesse Bebb, Guto Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Nuttall, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Illsley, Mr Eric Offord, Mr Matthew Bellingham, Mr Henry Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Ollerenshaw, Eric Beresford, Sir Paul Durkan, Mark James, Margot Opperman, Guy Berry, Jake Ellis, Michael Javid, Sajid Ottaway, Richard Betts, Mr Clive Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paice, Mr James Bingham, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Binley, Mr Brian Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Patel, Priti Birtwistle, Gordon Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Blackman, Bob Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Blackman-Woods, Roberta Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Penning, Mike Blackwood, Nicola Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Blunkett, rh Mr David Farron, Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Blunt, Mr Crispin Featherstone, Lynne Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Boles, Nick Field, Mr Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bottomley, Peter Flynn, Paul Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Bradley, Karen Foster, Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Poulter, Dr Daniel Brady, Mr Graham Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Prisk, Mr Mark Brake, Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Bray, Angie Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Bridgen, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brine, Mr Steve Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Brokenshire, James Gapes, Mike Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brooke, Annette Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, Mr Andrew Browne, Mr Jeremy Garnier, Mark Leech, Mr John Robertson, Hugh Bruce, Fiona Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Bruce, rh Malcolm George, Andrew Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew Bryant, Chris Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Buckland, Mr Robert Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Bob Burley, Mr Aidan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Burns, Conor Glen, John Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian Burns, Mr Simon Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Burrowes, Mr David Graham, Richard Lidington, Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Burstow, Mr Paul Grant, Mrs Helen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Burt, Lorely Gray, Mr James Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Byles, Dan Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Cable, rh Vince Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Cairns, Alun Green, Kate Loughton, Tim Simmonds, Mark Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Greening, Justine Luff, Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Carmichael, Mr Alistair Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Carmichael, Neil Griffiths, Andrew Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe Chishti, Rehman Gummer, Ben Mann, John Smith, Henry Clappison, Mr James Gyimah, Mr Sam May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Clark, rh Greg Halfon, Robert Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hames, Duncan McCartney, Jason Soames, Nicholas 1059 European External Action Service 14 JULY 2010 1060

Soubry, Anna Vaz, rh Keith European Communities and the conditions of employment of Soulsby, Sir Peter Vickers, Martin other servants of those Communities; and supports the Government’s Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa policy to agree to the Decision establishing the External Action Spencer, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Charles Service at the Foreign Affairs Council in July 2010. Stanley, rh Sir John Walker, Mr Robin Stephenson, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Business without Debate Stevenson, John Ward, Mr David Stewart, Bob Weatherley, Mike Stewart, Iain Webb, Steve DELEGATED LEGISLATION Stewart, Rory Wharton, James Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris permission of the House, we shall take motions 5 and 6 Stunell, Andrew Whittaker, Craig together. Sturdy, Julian Wiggin, Bill Swales, Ian Willetts, rh Mr David Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Mr Mark Order No. 118(6)), Swinson, Jo Williams, Roger Swire, Mr Hugo Williams, Stephen PENSIONS Syms, Mr Robert Williamson, Gavin That the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Levies) Tapsell, Sir Peter Wilson, Mr Rob (Amendment) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this Thurso, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah House on 2 March 2010, in the previous Parliament, be approved. Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Jeremy That the draft Pensions Regulator (Contribution Notices) Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Simon (Sum Specified following Transfer) Regulations 2010, which were Tredinnick, David Young, rh Sir George laid before this House on 1 March 2010, in the previous Parliament, Truss, Elizabeth Zahawi, Nadhim be approved.—(Mr Newmark.) Turner, Mr Andrew Question agreed to. Tyrie, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Uppal, Paul Mr Shailesh Vara and Vaizey, Mr Edward Mark Hunter DELEGATED LEGISLATION (COMMITTEES) Motion made, NOES That the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to Bone, Mr Peter Reckless, Mark the Electoral Commission shall be treated as if it related to an Carswell, Mr Douglas Skinner, Mr Dennis instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 Corbyn, Jeremy Tomlinson, Justin (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which notice of Davies, Philip Wilson, Sammy a motion has been given that the instrument be approved.— Dodds, rh Mr Nigel (Mr Newmark.) Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Tellers for the Noes: Lucas, Caroline Mr Philip Hollobone and Hon. Members: Object. Paisley, Ian Andrew Percy BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Question accordingly agreed to. Motion made, Resolved, That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the That this House takes note of European Document Nos. 8029/10 intervals between stages of Bills brought in upon Ways and and 11507/10, draft Council Decisions establishing the organisation Means Resolutions, more than one stage of the Finance Bill may and functioning of the European External Action Service; European be taken at any sitting of the House.—(Mr Newmark.) Document No. 8134/10, draft Regulation on the Financial Regulations for the European External Action Service; and an unnumbered Hon. Members: Object. draft Regulation amending Staff Regulations of officials of the 1061 14 JULY 2010 Retained Firefighters 1062

Retained Firefighters The first national legislation was not seen until 1938, when first the auxiliary fire service and then the national Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House fire service were formed. After world war two, the do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) national fire service was taken over by local county authorities, so that in 1948 there were 148 county council and county borough-run fire brigades. Today across the 7.11 pm UK we have 63 brigades, and with the exception of Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I am grateful London almost all of them include RDS personnel. for the opportunity to talk about this important subject The RDS system is not perfect and much can be done and I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for to improve it. Issues surrounding training, concerns allowing me to give up some of my time at the end of over the EU working time directive and difficulties with my speech to three of my hon. Friends who care deeply recruitment and retention remain. Following the 2003 White about this subject and how it impacts on their constituents. Paper, “Our Fire and Rescue Service”, a review of the I would like to make it clear that, as the debate is about retained system was commissioned. The report of that retained firefighters, I will limit my comments to that review, which was published in 2005, made 51 specific part of the fire and rescue services, but that should not recommendations aimed at improving the effectiveness be seen as a snub to our brave and dedicated whole-time of the RDS, but it is worth noting that it opened with firefighters. I believe that the retained system complements the words: the whole-time system and that each needs the other, “The retained duty system is a valued, vital element of the but a debate on whole-time firefighters is for another modern fire and rescue service”. occasion. Retained firefighters are sometimes known as Although the previous Government were perhaps a on-call firefighters or the retained duty system, which I little slow in starting to implement the recommendations, may refer to as the RDS. the picture has clearly improved in recent years with, for In many ways, this debate is about much more than example, a reduction in vacancies in RDS posts from the role of retained firefighters. It is about communities, 20% in 2003-4 to 13% in 2008-9. There is more work to volunteering and service to family, neighbourhoods and do, however, and those recommendations from the country. Retained firefighters are paid volunteers who 2005 review that remain outstanding should be looked spend up to 120 hours a week on call from home or at in detail by the coalition Government. work. The majority fulfil that impressive commitment This debate is about the retained fire service in general, in addition to a paid day job; it is not the sort of thing but it is well known in the House that I and my fellow that anyone does for money. These are local people who Warwickshire MPs have a number of concerns that care about their neighbourhoods and who want to play relate to changes in the provision of fire and rescue a role in keeping them safe. services in Warwickshire in particular. In my own The concept of volunteer service is a noble one that constituency, the fire station in the town of Bedworth extends across many areas of national life and it should has faced the uncertainty of potential closure for many be cherished. It predates the big society, but I dare say months. We have only recently learned the details of that it complements it nicely in the spirit of Edmund options that the county council will consider next week. Burke’s little platoons. It is about the Territorial Army Many people in Bedworth will be relieved and delighted soldier giving up his weekends and summer holidays to that it appears that Bedworth fire station will now train alongside the Regular Army, taking time out from remain open, but other fire stations in Warwickshire his job to deploy on operations to serve his country and have not been so fortunate. all too often giving his life in the process. It is about the From what we know, it appears that Bedworth fire police special finishing her day job on a Friday evening station will be manned in future exclusively by RDS and instead of going out with friends, putting on a personnel, so the decision is timely and relevant to this police uniform and going out on patrol with her local debate. I recognise that many people in Bedworth will police, helping to keep her neighbourhood safe. And it remain concerned about what could be seen as a reduction is about the retained firefighter dedicating his life to the in the station’s capacity. I confess to holding mixed bleeper and standing ready to respond within five minutes views. I would have preferred the station to have remained of a call-out, day or night. Once that bleeper goes off as it was, but I also recognise that the hard work, the and the RDS crew mobilises at the fire station, they are campaigning and the clear message that local people in firefighters. They wear the same uniform, use the same Bedworth sent to the chief fire officer have resulted in equipment and vehicles and attend the same incidents probably the best compromise that we could have hoped as their whole-time colleagues. The fire service could for. not function in its current form without them. The worst possible outcome for us—one that looked Looking at the origins of the fire service in the UK, it like a very real possibility for a long time—would have could be said that the entire fire and rescue service been for Bedworth to lose our fire station all together. It developed from an early version of the retained service. looks as though we will end up with a compromise: Prior to the great fire of London in 1666, firefighting Bedworth fire station staying open, but as a retained was done in a haphazard way at local parish level. It station. In doing so, it will join the 54% of all fire was principally carried out by townsfolk working together stations in the UK that are manned solely by RDS to extinguish fires within their communities. After 1666, firefighters. It is therefore with mixed feelings that I local fire services started to become more organised, declare my delight that people power seems to have won but it was not until the 1800s that more formal fire the day and Bedworth will continue to have our own fire brigades began to evolve. Even then, some remained station. That is a testament to the hard work and volunteer brigades, while others were private organisations campaigning of so many local people, including those formed by property insurers. in the Fire Brigades Union and the Retained Firefighters 1063 Retained Firefighters14 JULY 2010 Retained Firefighters 1064

Union, the friends and family of local firefighters and “All three models will improve the level of resources available many others. I am proud to have played a role in helping in Warwickshire for community fire safety, dealing with small to save Bedworth station. fires, road traffic incidents and incidents of flooding”, I am making quicker progress than I expected—perhaps so I am slightly concerned and puzzled about why he one or two other hon. Members may wish to speak for a would choose option A, given that option C would little longer than two minutes—but before I conclude, I certainly be a credible approach. will say that I am not a big fan of lists of statistics; but I am aware that other Members wish to speak, but sometimes, even in this place, a few facts can be helpful before I conclude, I wish to make a point about the idea to a debate, so I hope the House will indulge me. About that we need to improve fire safety. Many members of one third of the 42,000 firefighters in England are the public erroneously believe that their safety depends retained firefighters, but even that statistic masks just primarily on the proximity of a fire station. how much we rely on these volunteers. Retained firefighters are responsible for operating 60% of all fire engines in Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I agree with England. Because they are more prevalent in rural my hon. Friend’s comment about fire safety. Norfolk areas, RDS firefighters provide emergency cover for a county council’s fire review is examining saving money staggering 90% of the UK’s land mass. Some 54% of as well as improving the service, but consideration is fire stations in the UK are manned solely by RDS being given to spending more on management in Great firefighters, and at any one time in England, there are Yarmouth yet losing 14 retained firemen. At this time, more retained firefighters on call and providing emergency does he agree that we should all do our best in our cover than full-time firefighters. It is clear that we rely communities to put pressure on local authorities so that on our retained firefighters in a way that few casual they do not spend money on management and instead observers of our emergency services would realise, but do the logical thing of keeping in place front-line services they can continue to support us only if we continue to such as retained firemen? support them. Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend raises an important point, which I hope will be taken on board not only in 7.20 pm Great Yarmouth, but in Warwickshire when the Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): We have deliberations take place on Friday. heard a most eloquent speech from my hon. Friend the The chief fire officer says that there will be Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) about “a significant increase in community fire safety” retained firefighters and their importance to their communities and to the fire service itself. He is fortunate if option A is chosen, implying that having a single fire in having some certainty about Bedworth fire station; station and closing the retained fire station would mean unfortunately, I cannot report the same to the House that we would get more fire safety education in the from Stratford-on-Avon. community. I believe the opposite is true: that the closer that human beings are to their community, the more Our chief fire officer has had the difficult task of trusted their opinion will be and the more trust the drawing up proposals for improving Warwickshire’s fire community will have in improving fire safety, which is and rescue service. He took on the role from his predecessor the drive for the fire service to get fire alarms into after a difficult period involving a consultation process homes and prevent fires rather than react to them. that I think Warwickshire Members would agree was flawed. That process did a lot of damage to the community’s I hope that on Friday the county council will evaluate confidence in the fire service and in a decision-making the proposals before them. I have made telephone calls process that could lead to such unfortunate events. today to all the cabinet, as well as writing to them personally, to say that they should look at all the The county council will discuss and evaluate three options very carefully. They have promised me that they options for Warwickshire on Friday, two of which are will do so and that they will look in great detail at extremely negative for us in Stratford-on-Avon. I will option C and B. I implore them to do the right thing not dwell too long on those, but I shall speak about the and make sure that we retain our stations in Stratford- third option, which is positive in the sense that we on-Avon, whose staff are crucial to the community. would retain Bidford and Studley fire stations. That would send a positive message that we have listened Let me say a few words about the response of retained to the wishes of the community and it would build a firefighters and the local community to the consultation strong bridge with the local communities of Bidford on improving Warwickshire’s fire services. The way in and Studley. which they have reacted has been exemplary. They have not been a barrier to change and improvement; indeed, 7.26 pm their approach has been proactive, and when they were asked to step up to the mark, they did so by putting Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I will try to be forward a credible set of proposals. Those proposals brief as we are short on time. I congratulate my hon. have made their way into option C, which involves Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) retaining Bidford and Studley fire stations, and perhaps on securing this important debate. The House should into option B, which would retain Bidford although, honour and value the role of retained firefighters, and I unfortunately, we would lose Studley. want to cite a specific and local example of the superb I am worried that the chief fire officer has heavily work that they do, which occurred in the Delamere road skewed the process due to his announcement in his area in Bedworth in my hon. Friend’s constituency. report that he prefers the option under which we would To set the scene, on a Saturday lunchtime in lose those retained fire stations and their good fire December 2008, a local community was engulfed in a personnel. He has stated that severe flood within minutes. To their credit, the retained 1065 Retained Firefighters14 JULY 2010 Retained Firefighters 1066

[Mr Marcus Jones] local authorities throughout the country to recognise the value of retained firefighters and ensure that they firefighters from Bedworth fire station, which I am glad continue to have a long-term future. is still very much in the thoughts of Warwickshire country council and Warwickshire fire service, reacted superbly. They attended within several minutes and 7.31 pm carried out a diligent professional operation, which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for helped the residents of that area who were under pressure Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): It is at that time, some of whose lives were at risk, not to a pleasure to respond to this debate. I congratulate my mention the risk to property. They were helped through hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan the first few hours of that crisis by Warwickshire fire Byles) on securing it, on the elegant way in which he put service and the retained firefighters from Bedworth. his case and on his generosity in allowing several other I mainly wanted to mention the dedication and service hon. Members to participate. His recital of the history that our retained firefighters provide to our communities, of the fire service reminded me of my own rather in which the Government should support them, particularly lengthy association with the organisation, although I do with regard to training and ensuring that they have the not go back quite as far as some of the reforms that my right equipment, not only to keep the retained firefighters hon. Friend mentioned—despite rumours to the contrary. motivated, but to maintain public confidence in the I am delighted to agree with my hon. Friend about excellent service that they provide. the importance of the fire service. I fully appreciate just how vital the retained duty system is to the effectiveness 7.28 pm of emergency cover in many parts of the country, particularly in protecting our small towns and rural Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): My communities and providing a crucial element of the hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan national resilience arrangements. Retained duty system Byles) is correct to highlight the key role of retained firefighters, as my hon. Friends have said, make up firefighters throughout the country. I am fortunate to more than 30% of the fire and rescue service’s operational have in my constituency a station staffed by retained personnel and provide crews to something like 54% of firefighters. Sadly it is under threat, as are many other all fire stations in England. stations throughout Warwickshire. As I said in my speech to the UK fire and rescue At a time when we anticipate large-scale cuts to the conference in Harrogate at the end of last month, the public sector, something that the fire service is preparing vital and significant contribution of the retained duty for, it would be short-sighted to reduce the number of system provides an excellent example of how localism retained firefighters, yet that is exactly what has been and the big society are already embedded within parts proposed in my constituency.Retained firefighters combine of the fire service, and I welcome that recognition from high-quality service with flexibility, and as we seek to my hon. Friends. keep a lean and effective fire service, they are essential. How can it be right, at a time when we have an admitted I can confirm that the Government greatly value the skills shortage and ever-growing demands on our fire contribution of firefighters employed on the retained service, to get rid of these vital individuals who not only duty system. They are the backbone of many services, help to protect the public but do so with considerable and in some cases they form more than 70% of the savings to the taxpayer? operational work force. I had the pleasure of making that point directly to the national officers of the Retained Having had the pleasure, as I am sure many hon. Firefighters Union when I met them as an early priority Members have, of meeting and talking to retained after my appointment. firefighters, I am proud of the work that they do. We often bandy around the words “civic duty”, but retained Throughout the country, retained firefighters undertake firefighters embody the very essence of that term. Being a range of roles, responding to emergencies of all kinds, community-minded, they potentially risk their lives to such as heathland fires, floods, ship fires and chemical protect ours. spills. Many are also involved in the delivery of community fire safety advice, and others take part in the co-responding Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I very programme as first responders to medical emergencies, much appreciate my hon. Friend giving way and such as heart attacks. They bring great flexibility and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North value for money to our system. As active members of Warwickshire (Dan Byles) on securing the debate. If it their community, retained duty crews provide an excellent were not for retained fire officers in Cornwall, we would demonstration of the effectiveness of the localist approach not have an effective fire service. If the citizens of to service delivery, and I agree that they are dedicated Cornwall are to have a fire service, retained officers are and highly motivated men and women who do an essential. I hope that the Minister will address the excellent job for their communities. points that my hon. Friends have made about the impact In some parts of the country, the system has been of the EU working time directive. It is a constant threat affected by long-standing recruitment and retention to retained firefighters, because it will impede them in difficulties, but I hope that a number of measures that delivering the vital service that they provide for Cornwall are now available will help to support the fire and rescue and throughout the country. service in overcoming those challenges. We have to recognise that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to Chris White: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. what can be quite complex local issues, particularly To add to that, what sort of example are we setting if we given the changes to the organisation of rural life, the so easily ignore the contribution of our retained firefighters? social change in areas served by the retained duty I hope that this debate will encourage fire services and system and the competing pressures on busy people’s 1067 Retained Firefighters14 JULY 2010 Retained Firefighters 1068 time. However, that has led to the development of in passing that present in his place, and keeping me initiatives such as an employers’ information toolkit for company on the Treasury Bench, is my hon. Friend the fire and rescue services to use in establishing and building Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), links with businesses in their community, and an employers’ whose position does not permit him to take part in the recognition scheme designed to be run locally by fire debate but who takes an active interest in this matter as and rescue services to acknowledge the contribution by a Warwickshire Member of Parliament. employers in their area who release staff for retained I have spoken at length about the overall position of duties. the retained duty system. Of course, my hon. Friends We are undertaking an extensive survey of the retained have referred to the proposals in Warwickshire and the duty system, looking at how the nature of the retained possible closure of some fire stations that forms part of role may have changed in recent years; how demographic those proposals. As they will recall, the implications of changes may be impacting on that, as with the economic the changes set out in Warwickshire fire and rescue situation; how the service is addressing recruitment and authority’s improvement plan were debated in Westminster retention, and managing those pressures; and how the Hall on 30 June. I am sure that in making its decision, RDS work force are trained, developed and utilised. Warwickshire county council will take into account all That survey will deliver vital evidence that will inform the views expressed during the consultation exercise, discussions by fire and rescue authorities on issues and I have no doubt that my hon. Friends who have affecting this valued sector of the work force; so, too, spoken powerfully tonight will ensure that the authority will the proposed strategic review of the fire service that takes their views into account. I am sure that as a I announced at the Harrogate conference. I hope that responsible fire authority it will do so. we will use the opportunity of the survey and the review However, as I explained in the earlier debate, it would to encourage fire and rescue authorities to make more be inappropriate for Ministers to comment on the specific imaginative use of the resource of retained duty fire proposals that have been put forward and consulted on fighter. by Warwickshire fire and rescue authority. The principle It is necessary to say a few words about the economic of local determination of local solutions for local background with which the service has to deal. The circumstances means that it would not be appropriate Budget of 22 June set out the Government’s five-year for me to seek to influence the decisions that the authority plan to rebuild the British economy based on our values will be faced with on 20 July in light of the representations of responsibility, freedom and fairness. It shows how we to it. The whole point of the locally determined risk will carry out Britain’s unavoidable deficit reduction approach is that it is for local authorities to take such plan in a way that strengthens and unites the country. In decisions, and I am confident that they will do so these challenging times, the fire and rescue service, responsibly. I am sure my hon. Friends will understand alongside other public services providers, will have an why it is not appropriate for me to say more on the important role to play in helping to deliver those spending specifics, but they have ventilated their case with vigour. reductions. We will look to the sector to be innovative in I close by saying that earlier today I was at Winchester making savings and in improving efficiencies, while at cathedral, representing Her Majesty’s Government at a the same time recognising that its core business is a memorial service for two brave firefighters who died on front-line role, which must of course be given appropriate duty in Southampton. They were full-time firefighters, priority. It is therefore right that many of the proposals but the risks run by firefighters draw no distinction contained in integrated risk management plans—across between those who are full time and those who are the country, not only in Warwickshire—are aimed at retained, and there have been tragic deaths among increasing efficiency because, by doing so, fire and retained firefighters in recent times as well. All of them— rescue authorities can maximise the amount of risk-reducing every one—are brave and courageous men and women activity that they can deliver from the resources available doing their best for this country, and they deserve our to them. support. That is the key point. The aim should still be to ensure excellent service delivery. Efficiency is about 7.41 pm working more effectively, using less public money to deliver as good, or better, public services. That means House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order that despite reductions in spending, there should not be No. 9(7)). a visible reduction in service, nor a reduction in performance. There will be difficult decisions to make, but the fire and rescue service has a track record of delivery, and I am CORRECTION sure that it will step up to the mark to deal with this. My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire, and my other hon. Friends, referred to the position in Official Report, 13 July 2010: In Division No. 20, at Warwickshire, and I understand why they did so. I note col. 908, add Sharon Hodgson to the Ayes.

253WH 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 254WH (NHS Treatment) A true friend of the NHS does not simply praise it Westminster Hall unquestioningly, however. I believe that Aneurin Bevan, who died 50 years ago last week, would be delighted to Wednesday 14 July 2010 see Government, politicians and voluntary organisations coming together to work with the NHS to ensure that it constantly improves its health care provision for the [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] most vulnerable people and delivers its services with ever greater understanding and consideration. We should People with Learning Disabilities not forget that although the right of people with learning disabilities to experience equality in health care provision (NHS Treatment) is a profoundly moral one, it is also a legal requirement Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting under the Disability Discrimination Act 2005, the Human be now adjourned.—(Mr Vara.) Rights Act 1998 and the Mental Capacity Act 2005. It is important for us to highlight the many problems 9.30 am identified in some of the excellent work carried out in Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) recent years. Sir Bert Massie, then chairman of the (Lab): As always, it is an enormous pleasure to debate Disability Rights Commission, wrote in the foreword to under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I welcome you the commission’s “Closing the Gap” report that this morning. I also have great pleasure in welcoming “people with learning disabilities…are more likely to experience the Minister. He knows that he has a very exciting major illnesses, to develop them younger and die of them sooner portfolio, and if our extremely crowded meeting of the than other citizens. They are less likely to get some of the all-party group on learning disability yesterday is an evidence-based treatments and checks they need, and they face indication—we understood that the Minister could not real barriers in accessing services…we sometimes encountered a attend, for very good reasons—there is great public complacent attitude that these excluded groups ‘just do’ die younger or ‘just won’t’look after their health or attend appointments.” interest even in this debate. I welcome the Minister to his post. That was a damning indictment of what many people It is a great privilege to open this debate on the with learning disabilities experienced when they accessed hugely important issue of the treatment of people with health care services. Not only were people with learning learning disabilities in the national health service. I am disabilities more likely to experience health problems—that well aware that the NHS in Scotland is devolved, following inequality is due to a wide range of physical, social and decisions of this House, but I declare two interests. I am cultural factors—but the treatment that they received a co-chair, with Lord Rix, of the all-party group, and I was of a lower standard. represent taxpayers in my constituency, who want to see The same report also found that people with learning best practice throughout the UK, particularly because disabilities were less likely to receive checks, such as many of the problems that will be discussed today are crucial screening for breast cancer. There were problems replicated in Scotland. with what is called diagnostic overshadowing, whereby It is four years since the Disability Rights Commission physical illness is viewed as part of a learning disability published its report, “Equal Treatment: Closing the and therefore ignored or sidelined. Many services were Gap”, on physical health inequalities experienced by found not to be making reasonable adjustments to people with learning disabilities and mental health problems. ensure that health care information was accessible to It is three years since Mencap published its “Death by people with a learning disability. indifference” report, highlighting six different cases in If the report by the Disability Rights Commission which people with learning disabilities died unnecessarily was eye-opening, Mencap’s “Death by indifference” in the NHS. Those reports helped to bring the treatment report the following year was simply shocking. It highlighted of people with learning disabilities to the fore and led to the institutional discrimination that can exist at the an independent inquiry chaired by Sir Jonathan Michael heart of the NHS. One family reported that when they in 2008. In March 2009, the health service ombudsman took their daughter into hospital for treatment, they published a report on the six deaths highlighted in were told, “If she had been a normal young woman, we “Death by indifference” and found failures of process at would not hesitate to treat her.” the heart of service provision in the NHS. Due to time constraints, I shall highlight just one of I hope that today’s debate gives hon. Members the the tragic cases included in the report. Martin was opportunity to question the Minister on progress made 43 years old when he died in December 2005. He had a in the past two to three years and gives the new Government severe learning disability and no speech. After suffering the opportunity to show their commitment to equality a stroke, he entered hospital, where he contracted of health care provision for people with learning disabilities. pneumonia. He could not swallow, so was put on a drip, It is important to emphasise that the debate is not an which he was unable to tolerate and sometimes pulled excuse to attack the NHS. The national health service is out. A speech and language specialist visited Martin an institution that is treasured and cherished throughout and recorded that alternative feeding methods should the country and of which hon. Members in all parts of be found, but Martin was now entering his third week the House are rightly proud. I have seen in my constituency in hospital, his veins had collapsed and the doctors and in constituencies throughout Britain the hard work could no longer get the glucose liquid from his drip into and dedication of health care professionals—nurses, his body. By the time it was decided that a feeding tube doctors, cleaners, ancillary workers and others—who needed to be inserted into his stomach, Martin had are willing and able to go the extra mile for patients and been without nutrition for 21 days. He could not undergo are determined to help and improve the lives of people the operation to insert the feeding tube, and five days who need the support of the NHS. later he died. 255WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 256WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) [Mr Tom Clarke] I would therefore be interested to hear the Minister respond to the recent report by Professor Jim Mansell, The hospital’s internal investigation concluded that who, incidentally, made an excellent contribution to there had been a complete breakdown of communication yesterday’s meeting. His report, “Raising our sights”, between the doctor and the nurses. The ombudsman deals with people with profound intellectual and multiple went further, finding that Martin’s death was avoidable disabilities. It details the challenges, prejudice, discrimination and that he had been treated unfavourably because of and low expectations that many people with such profound his disability. Martin starved to death in an NHS ward disabilities face. It also deals with, and makes because he did not receive the quality of care that he recommendations on, health care for people with profound deserved and because he was failed as a result of his intellectual and multiple disabilities, encouraging NHS disability. That was certainly a shocking case, but Martin’s bodies and NHS trusts to think about how adequate death was more than a mere statistic. It was a human health provision is and to reflect again and again on life—a life that could have been saved if he had been how they deliver such vital services. How do the treated properly. Government plan to respond to this important report? As a judicial review has been granted into an aspect Will its extremely relevant and poignant recommendations of the ombudsman’s findings, I will not comment in be used as a framework for future policy making? It detail on the wider aspects. However, the “Death by would be useful if the Minister could make the report indifference” report was possible only because of the available in paper form for those who do not access the bravery of the families who came forward to highlight internet and if the excellent accompanying DVD, which the tragic and preventable loss of life that had occurred. we saw yesterday, could be added to the website. Their bravery allowed people to see the human aspect Although progress has been made, there is still plenty of disability discrimination in health care and led to the to do. That was highlighted recently in a poll of more creation of an independent inquiry into access to health than 1,000 health professionals carried out by ICM and care for people with learning disabilities, which published commissioned by Mencap. The survey found that almost its conclusions in July 2008. half of all doctors and a third of nurses said that people Sir Jonathan Michael’s findings supported what people with a learning disability receive a poorer standard of with learning disabilities and their families and carers health care than the rest of the population. Four out of have long said, and the points that I am about to make 10 doctors and a third of nurses said that people with a were overwhelmingly endorsed again and again at the learning disability are discriminated against in the NHS. all-party group’s annual general meeting yesterday. People The survey also found that a third of health care with learning disabilities find it harder to access health professionals have not been trained in how to make care services not directly related to their disability, reasonable adjustments for a patient with a learning and adjustments are not always made to allow for disability. communication problems. Parents and carers often struggle The Government need to make sure that there are to be heard, and there is limited knowledge among accessible and open communication channels between health service staff about learning disabilities. professionals and those with learning disabilities, who I was pleased by the response of the previous rightly demand a higher standard of treatment. More Government, who set up the independent inquiry and than 80% of people with a learning disability have a unreservedly accepted its findings and recommendations. severe communication disability, and that, alongside A public health observatory and a confidential inquiry the prejudices and stereotypes that I have discussed, can into the premature deaths of people with learning disabilities often be at the heart of identified failures in the NHS. have been established, and progress has been made on How will the Government continue to expand opportunities annual health checks, particularly in certain areas. However, for specialist support so that two-way communication more needs to be done to ensure more uniform roll-out, between people with learning disabilities and NHS workers and questions remain about funding. can improve? I ask the Government to ensure that Real progress was made under the previous Government’s people with learning disabilities are guaranteed access 2009 “Valuing People Now” strategy, and I would like to special communication provision and that NHS staff to hear from the Minister how the new coalition have appropriate communication skills. Government propose to maintain that momentum, how they will ensure that reasonable adjustments are made It is vital to recognise and adapt to the challenges and how they will continue to raise awareness among specific to people with a learning disability. I have health care professionals. I would also like to hear how recently had the pleasure of working alongside the they will move towards providing greater training in the charities SeeAbility and the Royal National Institute of health service—an issue that was raised again and again Blind People, which have highlighted the prevalence at yesterday afternoon’s meeting—and ensure that data of sight problems among people with a learning disability. collection, information sharing and service co-ordination In fact, more than a third of people with a learning are enhanced. disability have such a problem, and many do not realise As we know, the problems in the NHS are not self- it. Such problems can lead to behavioural change, to the contained. Discrimination, lack of awareness and a undermining of quality of life and often to increased failure to understand the needs of people with learning dependency. It cannot be acceptable that people with a disabilities do not exist simply in the NHS or the public learning disability are also least likely to get the right sector; such attitudes percolate through all aspects of help and support with eye care. society, from education to employment to health care. If In January, the all-party group co-hosted a listening the Government are seriously committed to removing event at which people with learning disabilities spoke to health care inequalities for people with learning disabilities, MPs, Members of the other House and other stakeholders they need to do so in a wider social framework, as the about the sight problems that they had had and the lack “Valuing People Now” strategy clearly recognised. of support available to them. As we listened to those 257WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 258WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) articulate people, it became clear that more information In the following year, as the right hon. Gentleman needs to be available and that eye care professionals also mentioned, came Mencap’s report “Death by need to be supported so that they can provide accessible indifference”. That seminal study highlighted some of and effective services. Eye care is one small but important the failings of the past several years and showed that six part of health care provision, but it became clear, as we people with learning difficulties had died prematurely listened, that all people with learning disabilities want is owing to discriminatory care. Yet after those reports accessible and understandable services that are adaptable were published, and despite moves towards dealing with to their particular needs. That is not too much to ask, I the situation, the most recent survey by Mencap, which suggest, in the modern world. was released in June—again, the right hon. Gentleman The commitment to eradicating health care inequality referred to it—showed that half of doctors and a third in the NHS is shared among Members on both sides of of nurses had witnessed a patient with learning disabilities the House, our partners in the voluntary sector and being treated with neglect or a lack of dignity, or health care professionals. There are problems of receiving poor quality care. Those statistics are clearly discrimination, lack of understanding, communication unacceptable. failure, assumptions about quality of life, and inflexible What can be done? The right hon. Member for service provision, which have begun to be tackled. That Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill has already referred process needs to be continued by the new Government. to the issues that we need to address. I shall probably I hope that they support Mencap’s new initiative, the repeat some of what he said, and I hope that he does “Getting it right” campaign, which calls on health not mind. To my mind, the first issue is training for trusts to commit themselves to a charter setting out the professionals in the NHS. There is clearly an institutional steps necessary to ensure equality of health care in the failure to make adequate provision for people with NHS for people with a learning disability. learning difficulties in the NHS, despite the fact that The charter makes reference to many of the points they receive £1.7 billion of NHS money. The Mencap that are being debated this morning, including annual survey highlighted the training issue; it found that 53% health checks, training, awareness, support for families of doctors and 68% of nurses felt that they needed and open channels of communication. Equality in treatment specific guidelines on how to care for people with will be fully realised only once genuine equality for learning difficulties, and how treatment should be addressed people with disabilities is achieved across society. However, to them, to meet their needs. There is clearly a gap that the steps that have been taken to make tangible gains we need to examine in closer detail. must continue, and must not fall by the wayside because I welcome the plans in the White Paper that has just of spending cuts or NHS reform, or for any other been published to end the top-down managerial approach, reason. Health care professionals need to be fully trained; and the current centralised funding of education and specialist communications must be accessible; and services training, because previously the multi-professional education must be flexible in relation to the needs of all people and training levy was not accountable in relation to the with a learning disability. amount of training and continuing professional development that it provided. The White Paper sets out The NHS succeeds because it is there for the most welcome plans to give employers greater autonomy vulnerable. Let us hope that, with the legislative programme and, above all, accountability. Accountability is what that has already been started, which hopefully is to we need, because training has been available but there is continue under the current Government, we can prevent no way of showing that it works. We need to get back to ill-treatment, discrimination and even avoidable death a local level, which is what the White Paper sets out to in that great national institution: we owe it to people achieve, so that there will be greater professional ownership with disabilities and to the vast majority of NHS staff, of the quality of training. I welcome that accountability whose sterling commitment I again acknowledge. and recognise that accountability at local NHS organisational level must also ensure that people with 9.52 am learning difficulties are treated adequately. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): As the secretary The second issue that I want to mention is the broader of the all-party group on disability and a member of the one of communication. That is at the heart of treatment Select Committee on Health, I have a dual interest in for people with learning difficulties. The question is this debate. I am also a member of the all-party group how to cross the communication barrier between on learning disability. I am sorry that I could not attend professionals—doctors and nurses—and people with yesterday’s AGM; it sounds as if it was a fascinating learning difficulties, who often cannot express their event. needs, which may be very individual. One of my constituents I thank the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston was recently rushed to the Bristol Royal infirmary on a and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) for calling the debate, which is weekend. He had a procedure on his heart and a doctor clearly necessary. If I repeat any of the points that he explained his condition to him as if he were communicating made so eloquently, it will be only because they need to with a normal member of the public. That approach be driven home. The debate highlights some current was clearly inadequate for someone with learning difficulties. failings in the NHS with respect to people with learning The nurse then presented him with some complicated difficulties. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there leaflets, which he could not understand. There was no have been several reports on the issue in recent years. co-ordination with his carer at NHS level—or certainly The Disability Rights Commission’s report, “Equal not at the acute hospital level—and that led to a man Treatment: Closing the Gap”, published in 2006, showed who was already very sick being further distressed and that although people with learning difficulties were scared. more likely to develop conditions such as obesity and It is in that context, to which the right hon. Member respiratory diseases, they were less likely to receive for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill referred, that the adequate care, treatment and health checks. role of learning disability liaison nurses is crucial, for 259WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 260WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) [Chris Skidmore] has risen by about 60% between 2008-09 and 2009-10, yet still only half the money allocated for such checks the support of patients, families and those who support by doctors is being used. people with learning difficulties. It is not yet clear how The White Paper and Government statements show many such posts exist. In my area of Bristol, which has that giving GPs greater control over their budgets will the Frenchay and Southmead hospitals, there are only circumvent some of the centralised mechanisms. GPs two. However, I was surprised to discover that that is will thus know exactly what tailored care is necessary pretty good by national standards. for their patients, including those with learning difficulties. I understand that interesting new moves are under I hope that GPs will take the opportunity to expand the way towards developing the role of liaison nurses, and use of health checks within their allocated budgets. in particular that St. George’s healthcare trust in south That will ensure that prevention is at the heart of London has gone further, by appointing a nurse consultant treatment. in learning difficulties. The success of that probably Above all, the issue is about prevention. As the right says something about the need to examine the NHS hon. Gentleman said, those with learning difficulties staffing structure in relation to people with learning and disabilities are often at greater risk of illnesses that difficulties. The holder of that nurse consultant post could have been prevented; they could avoid reaching remarked: the acute hospital stage, which can often be confusing “This job would not have had the impact it has had if it was and stressful, early in their treatment. Personalised care not at consultant level.” will ensure that GPs monitor patients more carefully. I hope that having annual health care checks in place will That shows an interesting divide, by which those with ultimately prevent people with learning difficulties from learning disabilities are often dealt with at a nursing reaching the stage in the NHS that they find so level, when to get the impact that is needed it is necessary disturbing—the stress of late diagnosis. to go higher up the chain. Clearly, there is a need to Finally, I echo the right hon. Gentleman’s comments explore the greater use of liaison nurses, the employment about the national health service. We are not here to of a number of such nurses, and what happens at local criticise the institution. We share a common cause; we level. wish to make it better and more effective for those with The White Paper gives us much encouragement about learning difficulties. the personalisation of services, and, above all, the determination to put patients at the heart of the NHS. I Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I note with interest that one of its principal aims is to thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He touched ensure that shared decision making will become the on the excellence of the national health service. Does he norm. To use the familiar maxim that we use in the agree that we must try to ensure best practice throughout all-party group on disability, “No decision about me the United Kingdom, particularly in devolved regions, without me.” Sadly, we know that for some with learning and that we should not have patients in one part of the difficulties that will be impossible. UK demanding of the health service a level of service that they see elsewhere? We should aim for equality and We already know about the difficult ethical issues, best practice across the UK. which have been reported in the national media, in respect of those with learning difficulties having treatment Chris Skidmore: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We forced on them. For instance, a lady with cancer was are learning that health inequalities throughout our forced to undergo an operation. I do not want to touch nation are extremely profound. Only by dealing with on the ethical issues today, but such cases clearly raise health inequalities can we raise the standard of public questions about the relationship between patients and health in the nation as a whole—something that applies professionals. Given the White Paper, the greater to many of our public services. Having a greater drive personalisation of services and putting patients at the towards the localisation of services and the personalisation heart of the NHS, we must ensure that patients with of care will get us to the stage where prevention is at the learning difficulties are not left behind. heart of NHS treatment. Through prevention, we will Personalised care that reflects individual health care achieve greater equality; it will iron out some of the needs is just as relevant for those with learning difficulties, inequalities that we see in our most deprived communities. if not more so. If we want to realise the promise of the The principles on which the NHS was founded are White Paper—I note that it is also committed to promoting still relevant today, and we agree that that must remain equality—we must understand the importance of health so. However, although free health care at the point of outcomes for those with learning difficulties. Moving access should available to all, based on need, we must from targets towards outcomes will benefit those with look harder at how to ensure that the needs of the most learning difficulties, as some of their problems need to vulnerable are met. That includes those with learning be considered over a greater period, and hospitals cannot difficulties. More clearly needs to be done, but I hope always deal with them in a single session. However, that we will be able to achieve it. those outcomes are not being met, and that reflects on society. 10.5 am Above all, it is important to ensure that the most Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It vulnerable, particularly those with learning disabilities, is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to serve under your chairmanship. receive the greatest care. In that regard, the introduction I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for last year of incentive payments for GPs to carry out Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) on annual health care checks for those with learning difficulties securing this debate, which is on a most important was welcome. However, there is clearly a problem. Take-up subject. 261WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 262WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) As we know, my right hon. Friend is chair of the Good communication is vital between patients with all-party group on learning disability, and I pay tribute learning disabilities and health care professionals and, to his work on the matter in Parliament and with as we heard, that is at the heart of NHS provision. I Mencap, which supports the all-party group. My right therefore look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments hon. Friend has highlighted a series of reports, which on access to special provision for communication within make a compelling case for improving the treatment of the NHS, and on appropriate communications skills people with learning disabilities, making it equal to the training for NHS staff. The NHS White Paper says that treatment received by others. the Department of Health will reduce its role in the education and training of staff. How will the Government At the extreme, inequality of treatment in the NHS ensure that professionals have proper training in providing can lead to unnecessary death, as in the six cases highlighted health care for those with learning disabilities? by Mencap’s report “Death by indifference”. Those six cases of unnecessary death led to the health ombudsman’s I turn from training to health checks for people with findings of failure in NHS service provision. Since then, learning disabilities. The Labour Government’s “Valuing Mencap has received more accounts of tragic cases People Now” strategy accepted a recommendation to from families and carers whose loved ones died because introduce a directed enhanced service of annual health health professionals did not know how to treat, assess checks for people with learning disabilities who are or care for people with learning disabilities; they did not known to local authorities. That has meant that all listen to what the families and carers said about the primary care trusts in England are under direction to patients’ needs, and they made no effort to communicate commission annual health checks from GP practices in with the patients using methods such as photo symbols. their area and to arrange appropriate training for GPs and their practice staff. Such arrangements were initially Some time has elapsed since the “Death by indifference” set to run until 31 March 2010, but there has been an report and the ombudsman’s findings of failures in extension until 2011. service provision. Will the Minister tell us what progress the Department of Health has made in achieving equality In addition, the Department of Health planned to of provision in health services for people with learning work with groups representing patients, families, carers disabilities? As my right hon. Friend said, there is a and professional groups to review the effectiveness of moral case for equal treatment but it is also a legal those arrangements and consider improvements for the requirement under the Disability Discrimination Act future. Will the Minister update us on that work and say 1995, the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Mental what commitments he can make to continue annual Capacity Acts. The cases that have been highlighted health checks for people with learning disabilities? Will show that people with learning disabilities do not always he also update us on the development of practitioners get the right health care; failures in provision can have with a special interest in learning disability, as that, too, fatal consequences. was part of the strategy? It was envisaged that such practitioners could serve as a resource to other health Given that people with learning disabilities are more practitioners in their area. likely to have major illnesses, and at a younger age, Given the announcements made by the Secretary of failures in provision or barriers to accessing treatments State on Monday, will the Minister further update us on or services are more likely to lead to fatal consequences. what the commissioning process will be for the directed Members may know of such things from their casework. enhanced service? Will the new NHS commissioning I spent time battling for appropriate care for a young board require GP consortiums to provide annual health constituent with physical and learning disabilities. Her checks for people with a learning disability? What expertise parents wanted her medical needs to be assessed alongside in commissioning care for people with a learning disability her physical needs, but we had a battle with the primary will the Government expect GP consortiums to have? care trust on that. We finally won, but it was too late; That is an important question. Will the Minister tell us my young constituent died before the improved services whether the Government plan a wider roll-out of annual could be put in place. health checks for people with a learning disability, as My right hon. Friend spoke of the problem of diagnostic my right hon. Friend has already asked him, and what overshadowing, whereby physical illness is seen as part systems will be put in place to monitor the quality of of a learning disability and is therefore ignored or such health checks? sidelined. In our debate last week on mental health and People with a learning disability will receive health autism, we said that similar difficulties resulting from checks only if they are known to the local authority. A mental health symptoms are being treated as if the further recommendation accepted in “Valuing People symptoms were part of the autistic spectrum disorder Now” was that the Department should ensure that it and are also ignored. We need health professionals to be collects the data and information necessary to allow trained to treat, assess and care for people with disabilities people with a learning disability to be identified by the or learning difficulties. health service and have their care pathways checked. We heard earlier that a poll of more than 1,000 health Will the Minister update us on the work of the NHS professionals commissioned by Mencap found that a information centre and the Public Health Observatory third of health care professionals are not trained in how for people with learning disabilities to identify practical to make reasonable adjustments for patients with learning changes that are needed to ensure more systematic disabilities. As has been said, that is no longer acceptable. recording of learning disability within general practice? The fact that more than 80% of people with a learning “Valuing People Now” said that the directed enhanced disability also have a severe communication disability service for annual health checks would help GP practices points to the need for training and specialist support. I ensure that the registers they maintain under the quality make no apology for repeating points made by others; and outcomes framework reflect information from local we need to underline their importance. authority registers of people with learning disabilities 263WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 264WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) [Barbara Keeley] I made it my business to attend the first meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on learning disability known to those services. Will the Minister tell us whether after the general election to signal my intention and that has been a successful way of collecting the data and commitment as a new Minister. Despite the fact that I information needed? Has good practice emerged on could not make yesterday’s meeting, I hope that my comparing data from GP practice systems with data good faith and my desire to collaborate with the all-party from other NHS sources to allow better analysis of the group will be recognised. I also pay my respect to Lord uptake of health care interventions and health outcomes Brian Rix who, along with the right hon. Gentleman, for people with learning disabilities? provides exceptional leadership in that area. Finally, “Valuing People Now”recognises the important I also thank the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris role that carers play and the importance of working in Skidmore) and the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles partnership with them in the provision of treatment South (Barbara Keeley), who speaks for the Opposition, and care. Carers should always be included as partners for their contributions to this debate. I will clearly have in care, but the “Death by indifference” report showed ample time to respond to their many points and questions. that health care professionals did not listen to families If I miss anything out, I will write to right hon. and and carers about patients’ needs. hon. Members later. It is right that such issues should The hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) arouse strong feelings and that they should be kept at told us of a case in which the carer was not involved in the top of the agenda. The right hon. Member for any communication about the person for whom they Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill drew attention to cared. The national carers’ strategy included a commitment the Disability Rights Commission report “Closing the to issue information prescriptions to carers and to gap” and the impact that it had when it came out. No enable carers to receive other appropriate information, one should be in any doubt of the extent to which the especially in cases when mental capacity is an issue. Mencap report “Death by indifference”provided a wake-up The national carers’ strategy also recognised that the call to the NHS and the Government of the day. The additional stress of caring may affect the carer’s own health ombudsman’s report has also been very important health, so there is a need for annual health checks for in alerting us to the failings in the system. family carers, too. We must ensure that carers get regular Four years on, a great deal has been written and said access to short-break services and to support. on this subject. None the less, despite the “Valuing In this time of cutbacks and austerity budgets, will People Now” strategy and the many worthy efforts to the Minister assure us that he understands and prioritises improve services, there are still some parts of the NHS work to ensure that carers are treated by the NHS as that are not delivering well enough for people with partners in care? Will he also tell us whether work on a learning disabilities. We have inherited that legacy and refresh of the national carers’ strategy will continue to we are determined to take action on it. I welcome and prioritise annual health checks for carers, access to support the principles set out in Mencap’s “Getting it respite care and breaks for all carers, especially those right” charter, and we will try to collaborate with the who care for people with a learning disability? charity to ensure that we address and take forward the The Government White Paper uses the slogan “Nothing additional challenges. I want to work very closely with about me, without me”, which clearly owes a debt to the Mencap to ensure that we translate the words on the slogan “Nothing about us, without us”, which was used page into real change in hearts, minds and practice for many years by disability activists. “Nothing about across the country. us, without us” was also the title of a strategy paper for The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for learning disability produced in 2001 by the Department Kingswood were right to pay tribute to the work of of Health and the service users’ advisory group, which many dedicated NHS staff around the country.Constructive included representatives from a number of learning feedback also needs to be part of any good process of disability organisations. continuous improvement, and is certainly essential when I trust that the Minister will value the contributions it comes to the NHS. My hon. Friend put his finger on and questions that have come from this debate, as the pulse when he said that one of the key things that Ministers have valued reports from, and the themes and the Government White Paper on the NHS will do is slogans used by, organisations for people with disabilities provide a far better focus on early intervention, early and learning disabilities over the last decade. diagnosis and prevention. Prevention will be an important part of this Government’s agenda in the delivery and 10.14 am improvement of health care. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Paul I want to make it clear that this Government support Burstow): I thank the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, “Valuing People Now” as a strategy. Our approach to Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) for securing this it is one of continuity and change. So I will not be debate, because it is a timely opportunity for the new reinventing the wheel, but I will be doing everything I coalition Government to set out their intentions and can to make the wheel spin faster—if I can put it that approach to the issue. I also pay tribute to him because I way—because we need continuity but we also need to know from my time in the House, over the past 13 years, accelerate the pace of change on the ground. that he has been a true and consistent campaigner on I have listened very carefully to the points that have behalf of people with learning disabilities and their been made by right hon. and hon. Members during this families. He has brought many issues to the attention of debate and I will try to respond to those points. I will the House and regularly challenged Ministers of the start with the point about evidence and information. previous Government—I am sure that he will continue Gathering evidence and information must be a key part to do so with this Government—to strive to achieve of informing the development of practice on the ground. better outcomes for people with learning disabilities. The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for 265WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 266WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) Worsley and Eccles South, the shadow Minister, were years, the institutional knowledge and learning in the right to say that this is an area where we must do more. existing system properly migrate to the new system, and Gathering better information and evidence is vital. We that best practice is firmly embedded in the front-line need better information and evidence to subject the NHS services. Those services will remain as they are now, but to proper scrutiny and so that the NHS can conduct they will receive more support and investment to do proper self-appraisal; consequently, any shortcomings even better. in care can be identified and acted on quickly, both at a local and a national level. Mr Tom Clarke: I welcome both the Minister’s tone I can confirm that we are pressing ahead with the and his approach to the all-party group. When he confidential inquiry and the public health observatory considers a number of these issues, I wonder if he feels, that were recommended by Sir Jonathan Michael’s inquiry. as I do, that the importance of advocacy is underlined? The confidential inquiry will ensure that premature and Furthermore, does he believe that advocacy will become avoidable deaths of people with learning disabilities are a central part of the Government’s approach to these investigated and that lessons are properly learned and matters? applied at a national level. The public health observatory will give us a much stronger evidence base about the Mr Burstow: I am very grateful to the right hon. needs of people with learning disabilities and the difficulties Gentleman for his intervention and his question. He that they face, which in turn will inform better practice. raises a point that I will move on to shortly, but I I am particularly pleased that we will have representatives certainly see advocacy as being very important in this from Mencap, the National Forum for People with area. Looking forward, we will need to ensure that we Learning Difficulties and the National Valuing Families reflect what we are learning from the work that is going Forum on the group that will scrutinise the progress of on at the moment in the new commissioning landscape both the confidential inquiry and the public health and in the new frameworks for accountability at a local observatory. level. In addition, all areas of the country have completed, Both the right hon. Gentleman and the shadow Minister or are in the process of completing, the new health have referred to annual health checks, so let us look at self-assessment framework. That framework brings together that issue. It is quite encouraging that many more strategic health authorities, primary care trusts, hospital people with learning disabilities are now receiving an trusts and people with learning disabilities and their annual health check from their GP. Last year, just over families. Those organisations and individuals are coming one in five people with learning disabilities received an together to assess local NHS progress and to ensure annual health check and the latest figures show that two that health services continue to improve for people with in five people with learning disabilities have received learning disabilities. Their work will be shared with the their annual health check within the last 12 months. public health observatory to inform its work. The However, that is clearly not good enough, as it means framework offers a strong means of ensuring accountability that three in five people with learning disabilities still do and it can help us to ensure that NHS services are not receive an annual check. As a Government, we are making the right adjustments in line with their duties determined to push that process forward to ensure that under the Disability Discrimination Act 2005 and other the training and development that has taken place legislation, which is a point that has quite rightly been delivers in that regard. made by all right hon. and hon. Members who have I have heard many stories about how those health contributed to this debate. checks have identified, for example, cataracts or cases of diabetes. Furthermore, as has already been said in this Barbara Keeley: As I think all of us who have been debate, if we put ourselves in the position of a person involved in today’s debate understand, there will be a having such a health condition but being unable to great deal of churn in the organisations that the Minister communicate the symptoms, we can begin to understand has referred to, such as the SHAs, the PCTs and the the difference that these health checks can make. So I hospital trusts. Greater accountability for, and greater am certainly keen to see annual health checks continue scrutiny of their work is clearly important, but those for people with learning disabilities, and we are looking organisations are now threatened with closure. People at the most cost-effective way of ensuring that. will be leaving their jobs, so I want to ask the Minister if Reference was also made to training of staff in relation there is a follow-on plan for when those organisations to carrying out health checks. Undertaking training is expire, as it were? certainly part of the requirement for all the GP practices that are delivering the annual health checks for people Mr Burstow: The hon. Lady must have a copy of my with learning disabilities. That training is about raising speech in front of her, because the answer to that awareness of people with learning disabilities and question is in the next paragraph. She is absolutely their families, and particularly about ensuring that right. In executing the change that the White Paper sets communication issues are understood, that advocacy is out, which means removing the sense of central dictation provided and that there is also liaison with staff in the and direction that we have seen in the NHS for the last acute sector. So there are a number of aspects about 13 years, ending that sense of command and control training and I will say more about that shortly. and making the system one that is about delivering The right hon. Gentleman referred to training, as did outcomes and one that is facing the patient and working the hon. Member for Kingswood. Reference was made alongside them to deliver those outcomes is an important to the recent Mencap poll, which makes disturbing transformation. Therefore we need to ensure that, in the reading as it shows the number of staff who have not transition planning that is now well under way for the had training to help people to make reasonable adjustments change that will take place during the next two to three to different situations. 267WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 268WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) [Mr Burstow] surprising if the Government were not determined to see those checks being continued. However, we are The shadow Minister talked about the need to look at obviously in the middle of a spending review and therefore people in the round, so that we do not only look at we must ensure that we achieve value for money in either their learning disability or their physical needs those checks. I think that this debate underscores that but at both elements. In that way, we will not allow point only too well. I will write to the hon. Lady on the diagnostic overshadowing to take place. That issue must other point, because I want to get the answer absolutely be properly addressed in training. Therefore I wanted to right, and I will ensure that other hon. Members involved ensure that right hon. and hon. Members were aware in this debate are copied in. that the Council for Health Regulatory Excellence is The hon. Lady also mentioned the value that we all working with professional bodies to support better rightly attach to the contribution made by family carers. training and to improve professional standards. That I hope that she and others, while perusing the White relates to a point that the hon. Member for Kingswood Paper during the past two days, will have seen that one made about the need for professional ownership of that thread running through it from principles to practicalities training, so that it is not just something that is imposed is the value that this Government attach to the role of from the top but is seen by professionals as an essential carers. For the first time in a Government White Paper, way of learning to do their job better. we have stated clearly that we see carers as partners in As a Government, we are working with the council to recovery and the provision of good care, which we want reach not only doctors and nurses but the full range of to ensure is provided appropriately in different health care professionals. That is clearly important when circumstances. It is an important signal that we hope it comes to meeting the often complex needs of people will be taken on board. with learning disabilities. For example, speech and language On annual health checks, the hon. Lady will know therapists have a key role in tackling feeding issues of that the Government are in the midst of a series of the type that the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, pilots to evaluate the best way to implement health Chryston and Bellshill talked about. However, he referred checks for carers. We will await the outcomes of the to a case that I fear I cannot talk about any further, pilots before making further decisions about their wider because it is before the courts. Occupational therapists roll-out. are also important in helping people to develop the On engagement, which all hon. Members have skills that they need to live independently. So I am mentioned, it is crucial that patients and families are at pleased that all of the regulatory bodies are reporting the heart of all health care services at all levels. The progress on that work and I will certainly keep in touch White Paper makes that clear by borrowing from an with them to ensure that that progress is maintained. I important past report. We want the aspiration “No also want to ensure that that learning is embedded as we decision about me, without me” to inform how the move towards delivering the vision that is set out in the health service develops. We need people with learning Government’s health White Paper, which will be published disabilities to be fully involved in the planning and on Monday. design of services at a local level. If we can create an Meanwhile, at a primary care level staff in all GP NHS that genuinely listens and responds to patients, in practices that are delivering annual health checks now line with the White Paper, we will ensure that people have the appropriate training. The Royal College of with learning disabilities get the support and advocacy General Practitioners is due to publish additional training that they need to make their voices heard. That is materials for all GPs this summer, which are about clearly important, just as it is important to ensure that getting health checks right for people with learning the values and principles behind the Mental Capacity disabilities. I hope that that reassures right hon. and Act 2005, which I supported during its passage through hon. Members that the Government are not about to the House, are understood and translated into practice. shelve the issue of training but are determined to see Some parts of the country are already doing great training programmes develop. work in that area by, for example, bringing in user-led organisations to advise staff and help them offer patients Barbara Keeley: I think that the point about annual the right advocacy. We want to see more of that. We will health checks has been emphasised. Does the Minister also work through the new body proposed by the White see those checks continuing? Will there be funding for Paper, HealthWatch, which will not only handle patient them to continue? He has helpfully quoted some figures complaints but be responsible for providing advocacy that show that we have moved from a situation in which and support in pursuing them. HealthWatch will have a one in five people with learning disabilities receive an key role in ensuring that the voices of those whom we annual health check to a situation in which two in five are discussing are heard fully across the NHS. It will be receive such a check. Does he know whether that gap—a a powerful champion for people who are not always gap that means that three in five people with learning heard. disabilities do not receive an annual health check—exists Hospital passports have not been mentioned, but because those people are not known to services or they none the less address some issues raised in this because GPs are just not carrying out those checks? In debate. The hon. Member for Kingswood discussed, other words, is there an information gap or is there a among other things, the role of liaison nurses. Hospital practice or provision gap? If he does not know now, passports are another helpful development and were perhaps he can tell me in writing later. one of the top suggestions in Mencap’s charter. The passports are short, accessible booklets that can be Mr Burstow: Regarding the hon. Lady’s point about carried by people with learning disabilities to give NHS funding, given the tone and the substantive nature of staff information about their medical history, any drugs what I have said about annual health checks it would be that they are taking and their likes and dislikes. They 269WH People with Learning Disabilities 14 JULY 2010 People with Learning Disabilities 270WH (NHS Treatment) (NHS Treatment) are a low-cost but effective idea and are offered by many examples of good service and good practice that we hospitals throughout the country. I want to see them must ensure sit firmly in the strategy going forward. My spread to every hospital. I suspect that the case mentioned officials will work further to ensure that we see how the by the hon. Gentleman involving poor communications findings fold into the ongoing work on the strategy. in hospitals might have been avoided if such a passport The right hon. Gentleman asked about the DVD. We had been available. are happy to ensure that it can be accessed on the Clearly, acute liaison nurses also have a role to play. website and to discuss other ways we can collaborate to All strategic health authorities recently reported on the maximise awareness of it and the Mansell report. We issue to the Department of Health, and all referred to are keen to ensure that people have access to it and will the value of acute liaison nurses. The number of posts is do what we can to achieve that. increasing as such nurses demonstrate their value. They I am told that financial matters, to which the right play a part in building capacity, training colleagues, hon. Gentleman referred, were discussed last night at raising awareness across the work force, improving the the all-party group meeting. How can we maintain and patient experience and, importantly, reducing length of accelerate progress in the straitened financial circumstances stay and getting people back into the community that the Government have inherited? Part of the answer appropriately. is that the NHS has benefited from this Government’s I have mentioned commissioning structures. As we commitment to real-terms growth. However, we have migrate from the old system to the new, we must ensure inherited a debt legacy that must be tackled, and we that the learning is carried over. That creates opportunities have made it clear that the sick should not have to pay and possibilities for organisations such as Mencap and the price for that, nor should people with learning others to play their part in ensuring that they work disabilities. The NHS will have to be even more creative alongside commissioners at a local level to deliver it. and willing to work in new ways with the third sector and other organisations to maintain and quicken the Barbara Keeley: While the Minister is on that point, pace of reform. I am confident that we can do things will he enlarge on how the commissioning of the services differently and achieve with less, and that we can do that we have been discussing will take place? Will they more for people with learning disabilities. be locally commissioned, or will the NHS independent Ultimately, we need to achieve real change to make board commission them from GPs? an impact on the ground. Yes, we need better training, evidence and engagement, but ultimately, we need better Mr Burstow: The NHS commissioning board will services driving better outcomes for patients. We need commission the family practice services that GPs provide, services that are integrated—the White Paper provides a but the GP commissioning consortiums will be responsible way forward on that—as well as more responsive. They for a wide range of commissioning services, some of must be built around the individual needs of patients which they may do collectively at a sub-regional or and families, meet their expectations and give them a regional level, while others will be discharged by the say in their treatment and ongoing care. NHS commissioning board. The important thing is the In conclusion, the NHS White Paper that will be expertise available, and we say in the White Paper that published on Monday can be the catalyst that we need GP consortiums will have access to that expertise in a to drive change. The message is simple. We want an number of ways. They might choose to bring it in-house, NHS that is focused on outcomes and judged by what use their local authority’s commissioning expertise—some really matters to people: the extent to which it helps local authorities have exceptional expertise—or work them live longer and healthier lives. We will need to with third sector organisations. There are already examples consider how we measure those outcomes in the right of that happening, such as with Turning Point. I suggest way for people with learning disabilities, and I look that opportunities exist for organisations to offer forward to working with the all-party group, Mencap commissioning expertise in order to develop services and many other organisations on that. Reducing preventable that are much more in tune with the needs of particular mortality might, for example, be a helpful starting patient groups. point, and we want to consult on that. The right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston The shift away from process-led measures towards and Bellshill was absolutely right to flag up the wider outcomes will bring a cultural shift in care and help the societal challenges of discrimination, particularly the NHS to shake itself free of any of the lingering discrimination faced by people with learning disabilities. discrimination that has been talked about in this debate— He was therefore right to identify, as the Government any sense of looking at the disability rather than the do, that we must not approach the issue in a narrow, individual as a whole in terms of how treatments are health-focused way. We need a wider social perspective decided. That is the opportunity the Government’s White in taking forward strategies on the matter, and that will Paper presents and I am determined to work with the be part of our thinking throughout. right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill, The right hon. Gentleman also asked me about the the all-party group, Mencap, families and others to Mansell report, which I know was the subject of discussion ensure that we grasp that opportunity and deliver the last night at the meeting of the all-party parliamentary best outcomes possible. group on learning disability. I thank Professor Mansell for his important work, not least because I understand Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): The sitting is suspended that the work reported yesterday was commissioned by until 11 am. the Department of Health. It demonstrates the vital importance of improving services and outcomes for 10.40 am people with learning disabilities and provides important Sitting suspended. 271WH 14 JULY 2010 Rail Services (South London Line) 272WH

Rail Services (South London Line) demand. That is demonstrated by the alternative route that people who are near enough will use: the Northern line. If the proposals go through, they will force many 10.57 am more people who currently use the train at Clapham Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): I am grateful for the High Street on to the Northern line at Clapham North opportunity to raise this debate on the future of the and Clapham Common stations, which are dangerously south London line, which serves my constituency, and overcrowded in the morning and are commonly recognised specifically the services that run through Clapham High as needing reconstruction. The severe Northern line Street and Wandsworth Road stations, which are absolutely congestion suggests that there is a desperate need for essential in allowing many of my constituents to travel alternative radial routes. If anyone ever wants to see directly into central London. Although the Minister is, what real crowding on a tube is, I suggest that they go to of course, aware of the situation and has had many one of those Northern line stations at morning rush briefings on it, I will set out the background, because it hour, when people sometimes have to wait for the is by nature quite complex and his Department, ultimately, second or third train before boarding. Cutting the will make the final decision. alternatives into Victoria will, far from relieving congestion, The south London line currently runs twice an hour have the opposite effect. People who live near Wandsworth in a loop between London Bridge and Victoria stations, Road are not even near a Northern line station, so they stopping at South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, do not even have access to such an option. Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Clapham High Street and What adds to the irony of the situation that has been Wandsworth Road. It serves the wide south London proposed is that two trains an hour will still go to community by providing access to two key interchange Victoria, but only at off-peak times, when commuter stations, London Bridge and Victoria, which are the demand will not exist and take-up will be lowest. The centres of much employment. In February 2009, Transport outcome is that far more useful services are to be for London announced the funding and go-ahead for removed, and scarce money spent putting on a four- phase 2 of the East London line extension, which will trains-per-hour service to Clapham Junction in the supersede much of our service to the east, running to morning when there is no demand. I appreciate that the Canada Water, Shoreditch High Street and up to Dalston. Minister might not yet know his London intimately, However, it is the proposals to the west that concern although I am sure that if he stays in his position longer my constituents and me and that have worried so many he will, but this proposal is like arguing that because of the local amenity groups, councillors and societies, Richmond has orbital services it should lose all trains such as the Clapham Society. The link to London to Waterloo or Victoria, or that because Croydon has Bridge was to be preserved by the proposed new line the East London line extension it should not have trains from Victoria to Bellingham, but Network Rail decided to London Bridge. That is really what Transport for to axe that, on the understanding that the direct route London is proposing for Clapham High Street and to Victoria would be retained. We were also promised Wandsworth Road. longer platforms at those stations and told that the money was available for that, so I hope that the Minister Beyond that issue, which affects my constituents so will be able to tell me about that or find out where the much—although the decision has not finally been made—I money that had been earmarked has gone. have deep concerns about the process that has been Transport for London proposes that, rather than followed and about how we have reached this point. continuing to take residents into Victoria, where so The Department for Transport instructed Transport for many of them work, including many civil servants, London to work with London TravelWatch to consider those services will instead be diverted to Clapham Junction the options for the future of the service, including the from May 2012. For those who hear the words “Clapham development of modelling to consider the future use of Junction” and immediately think, “Well, that’s Clapham, each option to serve my area, and many concerns have so what’s the difference?”, I want to say that it may have been raised about the modelling that was done to predict the name “Clapham” but it is not Clapham. None of demand. Rather than considering consumer views data, my constituents would consider Clapham Junction to the decisions relied on abstract projections over a 60-year be in Clapham. It is not convenient for them; it is not a period. I am not an expert, but I and many experts route that they currently use to get into central London. other than those who ordered that kind of modelling, are not convinced that it accurately reflects the desire Clapham Junction lies further out, so passengers for orbital travel, the unwillingness to interchange at would have to travel further away from central London Clapham Junction or the costs of the relative options. to change on to trains at Clapham Junction, which is already, as I am sure some Members know, an incredibly London TravelWatch rubber-stamped the TfL proposal overcrowded station. The journey would be longer, and to end the London Bridge service, and since then there would mean inconvenient platform changes and even has been an ongoing discussion about the Victoria end more crowded trains. It would, literally, be a backward of the service. What has emerged from the discussions is step. As the Minister knows, Clapham Junction has the so-called option 7, which did not exist in the previous been cited as the worst interchange station in London, shortlist but was brought in right at the end, although with crowded corridors and congestion. Clapham Junction there are a number of options. It seems to have been is therefore not in any way a solution, and I understand agreed as the way forward. This option ends peak-time that the funding to improve the station will probably access into central London and diverts people instead not now be available. to Clapham Junction, forcing them on to the very What is being offered, therefore, is an increased orbital overcrowded Northern line. It diverts long-distance service for an area that depends on its radial service to Kent coastal services that come through to Victoria, where people want to go, and for which there is increased allowing them to stop at various places—but not in my 273WH Rail Services (South London Line)14 JULY 2010 Rail Services (South London Line) 274WH constituency—increasing the journey time for those agree with me and that they would rather keep things as commuters, without doing anything to help anyone they are than lose an important commuter service for living in the Clapham area. the sake of four trains an hour going to Clapham London TravelWatch seems to have considered that Junction, which is not a station that they want to, or an achievement, even though its chair, Sharon Grant, will, go to. We would rather hold out for future funding originally referred to the impact on my constituents as a to lengthen the platforms, thereby allowing the introduction “major disbenefit” with “a substantial disadvantage,” of the Victoria to Bellingham service, which would and went on to talk about how terrible and overcrowded properly serve my constituents with four trains an hour the Northern line was. Suddenly, Sharon Grant and to central London. TravelWatch seem to have decided, for whatever reason, I am sure that the Minister will be interested to know that the Northern line is no longer overcrowded, or a that TfL spent £18 million on bonuses last year, up from problem, and that this proposal is the best option. £10 million in 2008. That suggests that it has sufficient Option 7 brings the worst of both worlds, money to keep the orbital links. As I said earlier, we inconveniencing longer-distance passengers and leaving should challenge why, as part of a compromise or of the worst-affected stations without their vital links to making it feel that it is doing something, it will put on Victoria, forcing passengers on to the most congested four East London line trains to Clapham Junction part of the London underground. It is an option that, when two would be enough and would release the from a common-sense point of view, does not bring capital and capacity for the Victoria services to carry on value for money. Even if it is cheaper at the moment, during the rush hour. the longer-term cost makes it a clear example of false I do not expect the Minister to give me a detailed economy. London TravelWatch’s remit seems strange to response on the nitty-gritty of what I have just said. He me. Is it not to be an advocate for the people of will probably give me some of the lines that have been London? Does it actually also work for people in the put out by TfL, but the final decision on the matter rests wider south-east, such as Kent? It has abandoned the with him. I am pleased that I have been granted a interests of my constituents in London. When Network meeting to which I will be able to bring some of the Rail approved the axing of the south London line to local people who are experts on the subject. They may London Bridge, TravelWatch agreed, on the condition not work for TfL or TravelWatch and they may not earn that the Victoria link was kept. millions a year, but they actually know what they are Now TravelWatch has endorsed the axing of the talking about. Frankly, they are the kind of people who Victoria link for Clapham High Street and Wandsworth I hope the Minister and the new coalition Government Road, in a double betrayal of south London. Particularly will start to listen to, rather than the so-called experts contemptible is that TravelWatch, and everybody until who are paid huge amounts of money, but, as I am sure early June, was reassuring all the campaigners in our the Minister knows, sometimes forget who they work area of what it called a “positive outcome.” London for and who pays their salaries. TravelWatch is meant to be the voice of users, but it has, I thank Mr Speaker for giving me an opportunity to I believe, used its position to compromise the compromises raise this matter. I am concerned that we will lose a and undermine stakeholder concerns, acting well outside service and that that will not be in the interests of its job as an advocate for users in London. It is almost London as a whole. It will not give value for money, and like a defence barrister going into court and beginning it certainly will not do anything to solve the congestion to collaborate with the prosecution. problems in south London. London TravelWatch’s excuses about unaffordability and balancing the interests of Londoners do not wash. Successfully endorsing the removal of central London 11.12 am links is not acceptable for a watchdog whose remit is to Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I congratulate represent commuters. There is no balance, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) as it has reneged on the categorical assurances and on securing this debate. I was interested in her comments views about keeping Victoria links for Clapham High about the Victoria to Bellingham service, which would Street and Wandsworth Road. TravelWatch does not, in have four trains per hour into Victoria, and her preference my view, interact with stakeholders, and is far too close for waiting for it to come in. A number of my constituents to the rail industry to be an effective advocate, still less in Lewisham East rely on train services from Bellingham, one that gets £1.6 million in funding from the London which is, in effect, a public transport desert. I would assembly. very much welcome a service that ran more frequently I know that the London assembly is rightly considering from Bellingham into Victoria. I wonder whether the TravelWatch’s funding position. Perhaps I should not Minister, when he responds to my hon. Friend, could say this so bluntly, but I am fairly blunt: I slightly worry give me some guarantee that that option will be fully that perhaps TravelWatch’s involvement with and support explored and investigated. for TfL was something to do with its wanting to get TfL to be very much supportive of the continuation of the 11.13 am large amount of funding. In effect, my commuters pay to subsidise a watchdog to remove their services and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport make their journeys longer, more costly and more crowded. (Norman Baker): I congratulate the hon. Member for It is an irony that what we pay per year to keep TravelWatch Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) on securing this debate and on going could give Clapham High Street and Wandsworth providing an opportunity for the House to discuss rail Road the four trains per hour service to Victoria. services in her constituency and further afield. I have This all seems to be very much a botched compromise; always admired the hon. Lady, who is an independent none of the proposed changes will benefit any of my person. Independence of mind is an attribute that we constituents in the slightest. I believe that they would could do with more of in the House of Commons. 275WH Rail Services (South London Line)14 JULY 2010 Rail Services (South London Line) 276WH

[Norman Baker] that can go into London Bridge is not ideal, but rebuilding and enhancing a busy operational railway is not possible The planned changes to south London line services without some disruption. are a matter of concern to several Members, and officials have informed me that the Department for Transport The original plan, as consulted on by Network Rail has received significant correspondence on the matter as part of the south London route utilisation strategy over the past few months. I am pleased that my right document, was to divert the south London line service hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for away from London Bridge and to create a new stopping Transport, will meet the hon. Lady in the coming days service from Victoria to Bellingham, as the hon. Lady to discuss the issue in greater detail. Obviously, I will and the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) ensure that my right hon. Friend has access to the recognise. Bellingham is south of Catford and is a exchanges in this Adjournment debate. convenient location where trains can terminate. The new service would have reduced the number of train It is probably worth starting my response by setting movements into London Bridge while maintaining key out the background to the proposed changes to the connections to and from London Victoria from south London line, with some details about the existing Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street as well as service. The current service, provided by rail operator from Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill. I note Members’ Southern, operates every 30 minutes in each direction support for that option. It was the Department’s intention between London Bridge and Victoria via Denmark Hill to implement a Victoria to Bellingham service in place and Peckham Rye, including stops at Wandsworth Road of the existing Victoria to London Bridge service while and Clapham High Street. Two-car trains run for most works at London Bridge were carried out, but the of the day, with four-car trains provided for the morning service changes made by TfL—I shall come to those in peak. That is the only service for Wandsworth Road a second—mean that the alternative service strategy and Clapham High Street stations, all other stations on will not now be implemented. the route being served by other train services. I take the hon. Lady’s point about the withdrawal of services to I turn to the East London line extension phase 2 to London Bridge and Victoria, and note her dramatic Clapham Junction and why the proposed Victoria to phrase, “a double betrayal”. Bellingham service will not now go ahead. The south London route utilisation strategy developed by Network It should be noted that Clapham North underground Rail highlighted the potential benefits that the extension station is located some 300 yards from Clapham High of the East London line would bring to the area of Street station, and provides services to the west end, the south London represented by the hon. Member for City and Morden as well as connections to the rest of Vauxhall. However, in 2008, TfL and the Mayor concluded the underground network. However, I am not ignoring that the £75 million scheme was not affordable within the points the hon. Lady rightly made about overcrowding. the constraints of the TfL budget. Recognising the As an occasional commuter on the Northern line, I am value of the extension project, the Department offered well aware of the problems. It is also worth noting—I to provide an additional £15 million as grant to TfL and shall come back to this later—that the Northern line to support a £19 million funding application to the will benefit from enhanced capacity over the next couple Office of Rail Regulation for Network Rail works to of years as a result of the planned upgrade that forms implement the project, so I think that the Department part of Transport for London’s investment programme. has been helpful. The latest information on demand levels at these As part of the funding proposal, TfL requested the stages, which is provided by Southern, indicates that withdrawal of the planned replacement south London Clapham High Street is the start or end point of some line service to Bellingham. The money raised from that 850 journeys per weekday, around a quarter of which was to be diverted to the capital costs of the East have Victoria as their origin or destination. By comparison, London line extension—the saving is the equivalent of Wandsworth Road is used for some 630 journeys per £24 million over 10 years. Under the devolved arrangements day, with two thirds starting or ending at Victoria. for London, the Mayor and TfL were, and are, fully at As the hon. Lady knows, several of the planned liberty to request such changes, given the powers granted service changes in her area of south London are required to them over DFT-specified train services. Under the because of the start of the main works at London arrangements, TfL can propose, and pay for, services Bridge associated with the Thameslink upgrade programme. additional to the Department’s base franchise specification. She will be aware that work on the Thameslink programme Alternatively, it is entitled to propose reductions in has already commenced across London: Blackfriars service levels and keep any savings made. The latter and Farringdon stations are already being rebuilt, platforms approach is what TfL proposed in respect of the Victoria outside London are being lengthened and preparatory to Bellingham service. works at Borough market have begun. When completed, It would have been apparent that the proposed service the Thameslink programme will enhance the frequency changes would have meant that Wandsworth Road and and capacity of train services throughout the centre of Clapham High Street would lose all direct services to London, improving connectivity north to south and London Victoria, with passengers instead being required creating new journey opportunities while helping to to travel via a change of train at Clapham Junction. relieve the Northern line north of London Bridge. However, train frequency at both locations would double However, while works are carried out at London from two to four trains per hour in each direction, with Bridge, the capacity of the station—the number of a far wider range of services available from Clapham trains it can accommodate—will be reduced. We all Junction, including to Waterloo, stations on the west recognise that any reduction in the number of services London line and the wider Southern and South West 277WH Rail Services (South London Line)14 JULY 2010 Rail Services (South London Line) 278WH

Trains networks, although I appreciate they may not be also included a clause stopping East London line services destinations that all the hon. Lady’s constituents want operating into London Victoria. If TfL decided to to reach. operate into Victoria we would need to renegotiate, and perhaps reduce, the £24 million funding offer. This may Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I apologise in case I seem an odd condition, but it was put in place because have to leave before the end of the Minister’s remarks, other train operators would have had a claim on the because I have to ask a question in the main Chamber Department for loss of revenue if TfL operated services at 11.30 am. into London Victoria. Slightly fewer of my constituents are affected than The hon. Member for Vauxhall mentioned her concerns those of the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), about London TravelWatch. She is aware that following but I want to pick up on the point about Clapham the proposed changes, and significant negative public Junction, because one problem is that it is not an reaction, TfL and London TravelWatch undertook a effective interchange, despite being pretty much the further exercise to investigate what mitigation measures busiest one in the country. I should like the Minister to could be implemented to resolve some of the problems recognise that the strategic long-term upgrade of Clapham that stakeholders identified. That study recently reported Junction—I do not just mean the £20 million announced and the Mayor of London wrote to the Secretary of in March 2010 before the election—to reflect its status State regarding its conclusions. as the busiest interchange in the country is essential to The study suggested stopping some peak-time mainline making a lot more services attractive to a great many services at Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill and more people, irrespective of the direction from which implementing a new off-peak Victoria to Bromley South they are coming into that station. stopping service, which would call at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street. However, in all its study Norman Baker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her work, TfL has not addressed the hon. Lady’s key concern comments. regarding peak period train services from Wandsworth I stress that we, as a Government, are committed to Road and Clapham High Street to London Victoria. devolution. We are talking about an earlier example of The study was, of course, led by TfL with London devolution to TfL and the Mayor, so whatever the TravelWatch and they will need to answer the question Department for Transport thinks we live within the about why such services cannot be accommodated, but existing legal framework. Therefore, the Department I understand that a key constraint is the length of may have fewer powers in this regard than in respect of platforms at stations, and the costs of extending them, other rail matters elsewhere in the country. which limits the services that they believe can call at TfL made a judgment that the East London line those stations at peak times. service to Clapham Junction provided better overall Of course, we in the Department will study the benefits than the south London line to Bellingham. conclusions of the study carefully, but I should make it Clearly, Members present do not share that judgment. clear that the Department is unlikely to be willing to It is entirely appropriate that TFL, which is London’s fund the mitigation measures that the Mayor is proposing, transport planning body, should make this judgment given that the issues arose because the Mayor sought and assess the trade-offs between the different service the withdrawal of the proposed Bellingham service. proposals. Ministers in the previous Administration accepted the guidance provided by the Mayor on that Kate Hoey: I really appreciate what the Minister has being the best use of the limited available resources. If said so far. Will he clarify something? I appreciate that the Mayor and TfL make such decisions—the coalition how we got here is to do with TfL and the Mayor, and agreement states that the Government believe that decisions TravelWatch, and that it is probably more for Londoners should be taken at a more local level—it is important to take up, rather than for the Minister to do so. Could that they stand behind the consequences of such decisions he or the Department say, “No, we want you to look when they are made, including the impacts on passengers at this matter again”, particularly the peak services at stations such as Wandsworth Road and Clapham between the two stations that I have mentioned and High Street. Victoria? Or is the Minister told about these things by The decision not to implement the proposed London TfL and the Mayor, with the idea being, in theory, that Victoria to Bellingham service was requested by TfL he is meant to say yes or no—although actually the and the Mayor to help fund the East London line answerisalwaysyes? service. Implementing both the Bellingham service and the East London line would have been ideal, but both Norman Baker: The hon. Lady makes an important services were not affordable and TfL and the Mayor point. I want my response to be exactly right because I judged that the East London line extension provided do not want to mislead hon. Members, so I will reflect more benefits than the diverted south London line. A and give the hon. Lady an answer in a moment. judgment call was made by TfL in light of the financial I understand that implementation of the proposed constraints it faced. As is the case with such funding service is likely to cost about £1 million a year, which agreements, a number of conditions were attached to the Mayor is seeking from the Department. Given our the funding given by the Department. TfL was fully current funding constraints and the likely reductions in aware of those conditions before it signed the funding available resources in future, an exceptional case would offer. need to be made for any such funding to be implemented. Importantly, the Department was conscious of the I note the hon. Lady’s concerns about London need to keep stakeholders informed of any changes and TravelWatch, which is not the responsibility of the included a requirement for TfL to inform key stakeholders Department for Transport, as she is aware. London about the route of the proposed changes. The Department TravelWatch is an independent watchdog sponsored 279WH Rail Services (South London Line)14 JULY 2010 Rail Services (South London Line) 280WH

[Norman Baker] The East London line will bring significant benefits to the part of south London that we are talking about, and funded by the London assembly, which is part of providing four trains an hour regularly between Clapham the Greater London authority. Any comments regarding Junction and Dalston seven days a week and providing London TravelWatch, concerns about its involvement connections to key interchanges to other parts of the in the study, or how it functions should therefore be London transport network, such as at Canada Water, directed to the GLA and the Mayor as well as to its for example. chair, Sharon Grant, whom the hon. Lady mentioned. On the Northern line, and crowding issues at Clapham The hon. Lady might also want to contact Passenger North station, the hon. Lady will know that London Focus, because although London TravelWatch is the Underground is planning an upgrade of the Northern predominant body in London—Passenger Focus tends line to be implemented in 2012, which will increase to let it have its say and take the lead there—Passenger frequency on the southern end of the route from the Focus has responsibility for rail issues nationally so it current 28 trains per hour to 32. The additional capacity may be interested in some of her comments. will help to relieve crowding issues on that section of the In response to the hon. Lady’s earlier point, TfL network. There are concerns about the spending review made its proposals to the DFT, as I mentioned. We can and funding arrangements, but we hope that the Mayor ask it to look at the matter again, but doing so risks the will be able to deliver the upgrade on the Northern line, DFT being forced to fund such a proposal. As I understand as previously announced. it, we have to be careful not to enter into a discussion Members have mentioned Clapham Junction station with TfL that in any way makes us liable for the decisions and its use as an interchange station for London of the Mayor, but I will ask my right hon. Friend the Overground services. It must be remembered that in Minister of State to give the hon. Lady further clarification Network Rail’s plans to 2014, suburban trains through about that important point when they meet. Clapham Junction to both Waterloo and Victoria will be lengthened to 10-car services. Works are also already Kate Hoey: I thank the Minister for that helpful under way to improve the interchange facilities at Clapham comment. It seems silly to put the matter through Junction by providing new lifts, and plans are in place departmental bureaucracy if the Department can never to improve access to the station, for example, by providing say, “No, we don’t like this.” Could the Department say, a new entrance. “Look, actually, in the end it’s probably better for this not to be changed at all”, and not put in the money? Although the changes to train services in south London Who is benefiting from the extra money that is going in? are largely driven by the need to accommodate train service changes at London Bridge, the proposed Victoria Norman Baker: A number of factors must be taken to Bellingham service would have mitigated a number into account, including, first, the devolved powers for of the impacts of those changes. The changes to train the Mayor and TfL, which most Londoners would services at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street probably support—we are trying to devolve powers and the severing of the link to London Victoria were away from central Government; secondly, the legal restraints made at the request of the Mayor of London, under the and legislation made in respect of the Mayor and TfL; arrangements that cover rail services in London. and thirdly, the consequences for other rail operators. We will, of course, reflect on the comments made by There is a complicated matrix to consider and I do not hon. Members during this debate and consider the want to give a misleading answer today, so I will draw issues that have been raised. the hon. Lady’s concerns and comments directly to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State to ensure that she gets a proper, full answer when 11.30 am they meet. Sitting suspended. 281WH 14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 282WH

Courts Service the people to whom he referred. They are completely reliant on public transport, and all too often it does not exist. [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] 2.30 pm Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. He Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure is talking about people on the periphery, and there is a to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, and I am double whammy because many facilities in Wales are grateful to have secured this debate. Reorganisation of drifting eastwards from areas such as those that he and the Courts Service will have a significant effect on the I serve. Does he agree that the proposed local government way in which justice is provided throughout the United cuts will impact on the transport system, which is Kingdom. I hope that this debate will provide an already fragile in such areas, so there is a double whammy opportunity for hon. Members throughout the House— with the closure of justice centres and contraction of there is a healthy bias from Wales in the Chamber—to the transport system? reflect on facilities that may be changing in their constituencies. Notwithstanding consultations, I am sure that the Minister will take note of the points raised this Mr Williams: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s concern. afternoon. In the spirit of constituency interests, I shall I have tried to raise the same point over the past five concentrate on the future of the magistrates court in years. For example, the bus subsidy grant from which Cardigan, and access to justice in Ceredigion and more many of my constituents have benefited has contracted generally in the rural communities that many of us over the past five years. Given the challenges to the serve. public purse, that contraction looks set to continue. That is a worry, and I shall not deviate from that. The consultation document usefully sets out the distances involved in closing various courts, and the public transport Access to justice is a key right for us all, and we will implications for constituents. The alternatives to the not be able to run the most economically efficient magistrates court in Cardigan are Aberystwyth in the service without failing to provide the level of service north of Ceredigion and Haverfordwest in Pembrokeshire. required. That does not mean that we should never seek The consultation document states that Cardigan is 38 miles savings from the service or explore other ways of delivering from Aberystwyth and 29 miles from Haverfordwest. a better service, but we must fully consider the impact of They are further away than any of the alternative courts the loss of that service on the community. that are proposed for closure anywhere in Wales. The distances that people will be expected to travel are Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate my longer than any others on a long list in Wales. hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I agree However, there is optimism about the public transport that reducing the number of courts is all about savings, alternatives, although my confidence in the public transport but all the research that I have looked at shows that the system is not shared by many of my constituents. Someone real waste in magistrates arises from the appreciable going to court in Aberystwyth in the morning would amount of non-attendance and people not being chased have to catch a bus from Cardigan at 7.20 am, and then up for their fines. I do not understand how reducing the face a significant walk from the bus stop. When referring number of magistrates courts will improve non-attendance. to points on a map, we are talking not about A to B or B to A, but about vast geographic areas. We are Mr Williams: My hon. Friend draws our attention to talking not just about the people of Cardigan going to a practical problem. Some of us are looking further Aberystwyth, but about large communities—Aberporth, ahead to ensuring that the magistrates court system Llanarth, Llandysul—and huge swathes of west Wales. serves people. We are discussing not short-term decisions, We are talking not about bus services and other transport but a longer term view of the network that we want. links from Cardigan, but about those from outside. The issue is valid. Rurality and public transport has largely been ignored I note that the consultation objectives include the in the consultation document to date. Many residents of commendable pledge to the villages in south Ceredigion are simply unable to get to Aberystwyth or Haverfordwest in the morning by “ensure the estate supports the challenges of rural access”. public transport. Having looked at the documentation, I contend—I suspect that others will share my view—that that is not Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): the case. The problem of access is not unique to rural Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that problems areas, but it is a huge problem, and will be detrimental with public transport bear down particularly on those to Cardigan and the surrounding area. who are most vulnerable and who lead the most chaotic lives in society? The previous Government were happy to close down magistrates courts, including that at Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I am glad that the Trowbridge in my constituency. That argument may hon. Gentleman made the point about rural and non-rural apply more to magistrates courts than to county courts, areas. The Rhondda is not rural in one sense, because but it worries many of us that those who will be most there is a conglomerated community and people live disadvantaged by the closure programme are the most close to one another. However, if Llwynypia magistrates vulnerable in society. court disappears, the number of people who are unable or fail to attend court is likely to increase dramatically Mr Williams: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. because they will have to travel all the way to Pontypridd. There is an underlying assumption that public transport It is likely that many people, including the victims of is an add-on and that people can access court facilities crime, will not receive justice, and defendants may get in a private vehicle, but that does not apply to many of off scot-free. 283WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 284WH

Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. We have had five and the impact that it will have on the community both interventions, each of which has been a wee bit longer because of difficulties with public transport, and because than I expect interventions to be. If other hon. Members of straightforward concern about lack of access to are tempted to intervene, perhaps they will be brief. justice.

Mr Williams: Thank you, Mr Hood. I congratulate Albert Owen: There is also an economic argument. the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on his Many of the court areas have solicitors’ offices built early-day motion 312, and prompted by the excellent around them. That is certainly the case in Llangefni in research note, I have just signed it. He is right to make Anglesey. Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that and the point, but he will forgive me if I focus on the rural does he agree that measures have already been put in challenges. I am sure that he will make the point about place for legal providers to move to other courts, as has urban communities. The problem involves the practicalities been highlighted? of living in rural communities and accessing services, but access to justice as a right is a much bigger picture. Mr Williams: I agree with the first point, which was He mentions in his early-day motion victim support the concern I raised earlier. Legal providers will move to and the implications for that. the destination of the court, and that will leave a A constituent of mine, who is a JP, acknowledges vacuum elsewhere. Many people will be concerned about that usage of Cardigan court is low, and that that is the impact on areas that have high levels of deprivation. largely due to the facilities not being good enough to Cardigan contains the two most deprived wards in accommodate many cases because of under-investment Ceredigion, Teifi and Rhydyfuwch, which are in the top over the years rather than lack of need. Custody cases 20% most deprived wards in Wales. In the community cannot be heard because of a lack of suitable cells; safety domain of the Wales index of multiple deprivation, special measures trials are difficult because of a lack of which covers recorded crime, youth offenders, adult facilities; and the court is not compliant with disability offenders and fire incidence, Cardigan’s Teifi ward is in discrimination legislation. If the villages south of Ceredigion the top 5% of the most deprived wards in Wales. and north of Pembrokeshire are included, he estimates Consequently, Cardigan town council has written to me a catchment area of nearly 40,000 people, which should and to the Secretary of State, expressing its concern at surely be enough to justify a modern court building the proposals and raising many of the points that I have with the necessary facilities to hold a wide range of mentioned. The council was grateful and pleased that cases. Cardigan has acquired a new police station with eight It is also crucial to remember that the closure will not cells, but it feels that there should be a new court only affect those individuals who will be denied convenient building adjacent to that police station. access to justice. Legal providers and witnesses will be There has been some suggestion that we should move forced to travel extra distances, which might be an towards a model that has group facilities and can achieve added deterrent. If police officers are required to give swift, community-based justice and make operational evidence, those based in Cardigan will have an additional savings. The combination of facilities on a single site distance to travel. There is pressure on neighbourhood has many advantages, but I fear that sometimes, the policing in rural areas. The areas are vast and, as the understandable drive for efficiency has clouded the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) will agree, vision of the best way to provide justice. Although we there is a problem of resources. The pressures on police are not in a position to build many new facilities across forces in rural areas look set to continue. the country, if we lose locations that provide a greater A concentration of court services away from rural function to the justice system, there is a danger that we areas could lead to the same trend in the availability of will never be able to implement that vision. legal advice. People will have to travel to Aberystwyth It has been suggested that Aberystwyth—38 miles to attend court, and they may have to travel to access north of Cardigan—is capable of taking on the extra legal advice. Even if that doomsday scenario is not work that would be necessitated by the closure of the reached, the closure will certainly have an impact on court at Cardigan. The consultation points to the local providers of legal services. construction of a new justice centre in Aberystwyth, I welcome the fact that the documentation contains a which I welcome, but the Minister will be well aware of section on rural-proofing, but I fear that Cardigan is a the delays in that project after the collapse of the long way from being rural-proofed. The standard of developers involved. Originally, the project was to have public transport is not adequate for the purposes suggested included a Crown court, with Aberystwyth serving as a in the proposals. During a debate on court closures in mid-Wales hub for justice. Currently, the nearest Crown Yorkshire that took place in Westminster Hall last courts are in Carmarthen, Swansea and Welshpool. week, the Minister stated: “Recent improvements in transport and communication links Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): And mean that people can travel further in less time if they need Dolgellau. to.”—[Official Report, 7 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 131WH.] I am sure that that is true in many parts of the country, Mr Williams: And Dolgellau—I thank the hon. but it is not the case in west Wales where public transport Gentleman for adding that to my list. There remains a has suffered over the past few years and, if anything, we case for a Crown court in Aberystwyth, even if the have a less comprehensive service than that of several money is not currently available. years ago. I have written to the Minister and his predecessor, I accept that there will always be local opposition to Bridget Prentice, who I met. However, there is as yet any change in the service, but I have been struck by how little concrete information to report. As such, the closure strongly people in Cardigan feel about this proposal, of a magistrates court in Cardigan is predicated on a 285WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 286WH project that we hope will happen, but for which we have and need, and which ones we do not. However, that no time scale. I hope that that concern will be noted in must not be obscured by the search for savings in which the consultation. all Ministers participate. These are crucial decisions The Cardigan and Tivyside Advertiser, which serves that will shape the nature of justice in Ceredigion and Cardigan and the surrounding area, has launched a the rest of the UK for many years. This service should campaign to save the court. One of its concerns is about not be decided on the basis of the bottom line. the continuation of court reporting which, as I am sure the Minister will agree, is vital to our democracy. The 2.48 pm newspaper does not have the resources to send reporters to Haverfordwest or Aberystwyth, and if the court Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) closes, it will have to end its reports on Cardigan cases. (PC): It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, That is not a justification for keeping the court, but it is Mr Hood, and may I begin by congratulating the hon. an important point none the less. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing this vitally important debate? As many hon. Members will Concerns have been raised about the decline of court testify, the issue will have a major impact on a great reporting and the impact that that has on transparency. number of our constituents. In my constituency, the By and large that decline has been the result of newspapers proposed closures will be a hammer blow to the local deciding that it was not in their economic interest to area, eroding the connection between the local community cover court cases, but if the Government take decisions and justice provided through the magistrates system. I that will impact on public access to information about have spoken to local residents and solicitors, and there court proceedings, that factor should be considered. is great concern. If the proposals go ahead, and the Under the proposals, Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire notion of justice being directly linked to the communities local justice areas are to be merged. I do not oppose in which the crimes took place is lost, the entire ideal of that, as it seems to be a sensible extension of the fairness in our society is put at risk. collaborative work that is already taking place. However, Looking at the detail of the proposals, I can only I seek clarification from the Minister that justices of the assume that the courts facing closure have been chosen peace would not be required to be on the bench for all completely at random. Any examination of the impact courts within that larger area, as that could become of the closures makes it clear that the suggestions are unmanageable. The principle of the merger, however, not practical, especially in my part of the world. One of has been accepted, and I hope that any issues of practicality the courts down for closure in my constituency is that of can be resolved. Llandovery. That certainly highlights the off-the-cuff One of the justifications for the proposals is the cost. approach that the UK Government have taken. Anyone The reorganisation is expected to save about £15.3 million with knowledge of the provision would have pointed a year, and make a one-off saving of £21 million from out that the Llandovery service has been closed for backlog maintenance. Closing the court at Cardigan some time. I can only hope that it was not the Ministry means a saving of £88,000 a year, as well as a saving of of Justice’s intention to shut the town’s library, which £85,000 from backlog maintenance. Although all savings has been operating from the site for the past few years. are to be welcomed, those figures are relatively small— [Interruption.] Well, I hope not. perhaps they will multiply as we hear from other hon. However, what is deeply concerning is the lack of Members about their own areas. We must consider attention given to the impact of closing the main service whether the savings provide value, and Ministers will in my constituency—namely, Ammanford magistrates have to decide whether the loss of the service is worth court. One justification given for shutting the court the savings that will be made. In Cardigan, I do not services in Llandovery, in the north of Carmarthenshire, think that that is the case. was that people there could make the long journey to The Magistrates’ Association has noted that while Ammanford. As someone who makes that journey by the consultations are carried out, an advertisement has private means as part of my job as a Member of been placed for 30 district judges. That has caused Parliament, I can attest to the fact that it can take close understandable concern to lay magistrates. I would be to an hour, even though the route is serviced by the grateful if the Minister would address that point and main Swansea to Manchester trunk road. provide some reassurance to lay magistrates that their The most recent round of closures will require people role in the justice system remains valued. from the Llandovery, Cilycwm and Rhandirmwyn areas— I appreciate that money can be saved from the Courts some of the most isolated parts of Wales—to make an Service, and I appreciate the need to find savings across extended trip out of the constituency to Llanelli. For the Government. However, this decision is not about people who can call on private transport, that is difficult cutting budgets for a few years, but about depriving at the best of times, but for those who cannot, and with communities of a service for a generation if not longer. such poor public transport services in the county, it will The Minister has rightly stated that the Government be almost impossible for many people. We must also will be judged not on the amount of money spent but remember that the Government will be asking people to on the quality of justice provided. That is a fundamental take on the additional expense of public transport or principle. On that basis, has he considered the suggestion added petrol costs at a time when families are already by the Magistrates’ Association to allow magistrates making very difficult choices as a result of tightening courts to do more, thereby ensuring that our courts are family budgets. properly used and provide local access to justice? The north of Carmarthenshire to Llanelli is not a The Government must make their decision based on natural public transport route, with only the Heart of the need for the service. There is good reason to reorganise Wales rail line providing a direct service. Those who the Courts Service, and consider which courts we want have travelled on that beautiful rail track will know that 287WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 288WH

[Jonathan Edwards] to be a unified Carmarthenshire bench, he will do his utmost to ensure that the bilingual service is fully the services are not regular enough to allow convenient maintained. travel to Llanelli. Trains run on the line at four-hour I strongly oppose the proposals, as they will have a intervals, if my memory serves me correctly. In my hugely detrimental impact on community-based justice constituency, that has an impact not only on those delivered by local magistrates. I urge the Minister to travelling great distances to Ammanford, but even on reconsider his proposals, especially in Carmarthenshire, people in the surrounding Amman valley area. Closing where the negative impact of the closures will be felt Ammanford court will result in people in areas such as throughout the county, especially among the most Brynamman, Garnant and Glanamman in the upper vulnerable in society. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Amman valley having to catch several different buses, often with long waiting times between connections. The first direct bus from Ammanford to Llanelli does not 2.54 pm arrive until 10.30 in the morning. My constituency would also be left without a single court. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I do not intend to take too long today, because I introduced a I recently spoke to someone who plays an active role debate last week on the proposed closure of Goole and in the Courts Service in Carmarthenshire, who explained other courts, but there are one or two issues that I was how one defendant had asked to be sent to jail as they not able to bring out in that debate that I would like to did not consider it financially or physically possible to cover now. undertake community service in another part of the county due to the limited availability of public transport. I agree with the point repeated by the hon. Member There is certainly a strong case to be made that by for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) closing those sites and expecting defendants, witnesses and originally made by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn and court employees to travel further at great personal (Albert Owen). The legal community is often set up cost, we will inevitably end up with a situation in which around the courts. The situation is exactly the same in the amount of time and effort spent on chasing individuals Goole, where solicitors firms and the police station are who do not turn up to court will rocket. That point attached to the court, to the point that there is a echoes one made earlier. It could be counter-productive connecting tunnel and the services available in the police with regard to saving the public money. There is also the station are also available to the magistrates court. We cost of the police having to go further to obtain warrants, have a legal quarter in Goole that is obviously threatened leaving their beat, which would be a big blow for the by the proposals. town of Ammanford. Like some hon. Members who have spoken, I represent a largely rural constituency. The East Riding of Yorkshire It is evident when considering Ammanford court in council is the largest unitary authority in England, my constituency that the decision was made without covering 1,000 square miles. The point I made last week evaluating the individual merits of the court. Over the was that we went through a reorganisation 10 years ago past few years, £59,000 has been spent refurbishing the in the East Riding, which left us with four courts, facility. It seems extraordinary that such a large amount including the one in the city of Hull: two in the centre of of public money could be spent improving the court to the East Riding and two at either extreme of the area, make it—as I am told—a good-quality building and a one in Goole and one in Bridlington. We are now in the state-of-the-art magistrates court, only for it to be closed strange situation that the court furthest away, in Goole, without a second thought. That totally contradicts the is the one under threat. mantra of value for money that is supposed to be at the heart of the proposals and the consultation. There has been an attempt to achieve efficiencies because the back-office functions are already centralised This is not the first time that Ammanford court has with Beverley. The biggest concern for me is that a large faced the threat of closure. In the last round of closures, proportion of defendants who are dealt with in Goole Ammanford was also on the hit list. Local magistrates are from the local area. We now have the strange and the local legal community believed that the recent situation—I repeat this point because it is important—in investment in the court would safeguard its future and which defendants from the Goole area will have to were very disappointed to see Ammanford in the travel to Beverley to access justice. consultation document. They are clearly very concerned about the Government’s proposals. The hon. Member Research shows that it will take most people who for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) made an excellent point in want to travel by bus up to two hours to get to Beverley, that respect. The legal community in the town has set involving a change of bus in Hull. Depending on the itself up around the court and there would be an effect route that people follow, the least time that they can on the economy if the court were to move. take is one hour and 25 minutes, but the more likely time, given how the timetables work, is one hour and The proposals would also create just one 56 minutes to travel by public transport from Goole to Carmarthenshire bench. The Dinefwr bench, which Beverley. It is important to point out that there is no currently serves my constituency, covers one of the direct bus service. Services from other parts of the East most concentrated areas of Welsh speakers in Wales Riding are unaffected by the proposals, but people in and provides a fully bilingual service. Justice is therefore Goole who want to get to Beverley will have to travel via delivered in the language of choice of defendants. People Hull, where there is already a magistrates court. I are especially proud of the bilingual scheme; it is one of referred to that last week. We will have the strange the foremost schemes in Wales. There are concerns that situation of people who want to take the bus to Beverley the loss of the Dinefwr bench could dilute that service. I magistrates court sitting on the bus, travelling past seek assurances from the Minister today that if there is another magistrates court, in Hull, getting off the bus, 289WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 290WH waiting for a connection and then getting on a bus to no figures are given in the document on how much will Beverley. They will have to travel some 39 miles to be saved by closing Goole court. Although it operates access local justice. as a courthouse for only one day a month, it provides That is a huge concern for the magistrates and for a vital service. Once we lose it, people will be forced people in the Goole area. The risk, of course, is that to travel to Doncaster. We will have people heading to people simply will not turn up. I would like to see some Doncaster in south Yorkshire, and others having to travel assessment from my hon. Friend the Minister and from 40 miles by public transport to Beverley. the Ministry of Justice of how many cases or how many defendants or witnesses they expect to be affected by Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East this move. In particular, how many are likely to choose Cleveland) (Lab): Another aspect of the transport difficulties not to attend? is the cost. It is proposed that a magistrates court in Guisborough in my constituency should be closed. The I touched on the issue of the utilisation rate in my transport links go through the same villages, and it is debate, but was not able to go into great detail. I highly likely that witnesses, defendants and plaintiffs followed it up with a written question to the Minister, will all be getting on the same bus when going to court, which on the face of it may not have been particularly once it is moved to Middlesbrough or Darlington. useful to my argument. That is perhaps a lesson learned Without a local court service, which they already have, for the future. I went back to the magistrates and asked that will happen more often. for more clarification of the issue. There is quite a low utilisation rate for the courts in Goole, but that is Andrew Percy: The hon. Gentleman makes an important because we have two courts—court 1 and court 2, which point. The situation could be the same in many of our are taken together. Actually, the utilisation rate for constituencies, and it is a matter for concern. Sadly, it is court 1 is exceptionally high. The magistrates inform not dealt with in the consultation document. me that it is upwards of 70%—probably nearer 80%. We have a low utilisation rate for court 2 because not taken I said that my area could be left with a justice black into account in that figure is the fact that the room is hole, as we will also be losing Selby magistrates court used for other meetings. It is a resource that supports under the proposals. We should be genuine about wanting the work in court 1. However, that does not come across to see justice being delivered, but to some concern in the utilisation rate. In the past, court 2 has been used among Conservative Members the Justice Secretary has by the commissioner for taxes, the Department for spoken of the need for more community sentencing. If Transport and others. we are trying to bring justice to the community, we will need local courts so that people can access it. I did not go into politics just to be against things; I also want to suggest possible solutions. One solution I do not wish to say much more, but one point that I that I would like considered is bringing other services to made last week is worth making again. It falls outside Goole, possibly tribunals, so that we can make the the consultation criteria, but I make it with as much system sustainable as we move forward. passion as I can. Despite Goole’s history of being knocked for many things, over the past few years we I mentioned briefly last week the matter of deprivation. have been trying to do something with our heritage. The On some measures Goole is among the 10% most courthouse at Goole, which is part of the police station deprived areas of the country. We have the strange next door, is a Victorian building. It is a fantastic situation of people in the most deprived parts of the building, and it forms a huge part of our local heritage. East Riding, which includes Goole, facing the longest We are trying to preserve that heritage to draw people trek to access justice and the most expense. into Goole. We have more than the docks; we have some interesting heritage and history, but one of our oldest Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Is the hon. and best-maintained buildings faces an uncertain future. Gentleman aware that two courts in my constituency I know that will not be factored into the decision-making will be closed? The one in Rhyll covers the first, fourth process, but it is important. We are keen to preserve our and fifth most deprived wards of the 1,900 wards in heritage. On that note, I shall resume my seat. Wales. Does that make sense? Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. The Members Andrew Percy: The hon. Gentleman makes a good who wrote to Mr Speaker requesting to speak in this point; that is where the biggest impact would be felt. I debate have all spoken. Other Members have indicated am sure he will make that clear during the consultation to me that, if possible, they would like to speak. We process, because it is a huge concern that the most have some time, but I intend to start the Front-Bench deprived should feel the greatest impact. speeches at 3.30 pm. If the Members I call use their time wisely, we may be able to accommodate everyone who is I was about to say that despite the best efforts of the interested in making a contribution. dynamic Conservative-run East Riding of Yorkshire council, Beverley still has some of the highest parking charges in the region. Even if people are fortunate 3.4 pm enough to be able to get there by their own means, they Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I congratulate will be faced with the prospect of having to pay significant the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams)on securing parking charges. this important debate. It is pleasing to see so many I did not get the chance last week to talk about the Members here, and many of them—I think six—are county court that operates outside Goole. That, too, is from Wales. proposed for closure, and its services are to be transferred Two of the 156 courts to be closed are in my to Doncaster. Yes, we have reasonable transport links constituency—a county court in Rhyll and a magistrates with Doncaster, with direct bus or train services. However, court in Denby. I have been to a briefing with the Public 291WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 292WH

[Chris Ruane] that are under threat in mid and north Wales and I can speak about the quality of those buildings and of the and Commercial Services Union, which has given me service available in them. I congratulate the hon. Member an excellent note. I want to tease out some of the points for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing the debate, it mentions as they relate to my constituency, and I have and I share the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member some specific questions for the Minister. However, my for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) questions about the courts in my constituency apply to and others who have spoken. all the courts under threat of closure. My theme is access to local justice. I am concerned I said in an intervention that the court in Rhyll is about the proposed closure of Pwllheli magistrates court. located in the heart of the poorest ward of the 1,900 wards I have the honour to represent one of the two largest in Wales. Two other wards there are fourth and fifth constituencies in Wales in terms of geography; indeed, in the league table of deprivation in Wales. The pre- it is probably among the top five or 10 in the whole UK, consultation and consultation period for the closures is stretching 100 miles from north to south and 90 miles not sufficient; it finishes in September and most of it from east to west. It currently has two magistrates will take place over the holiday period. Will the Minister courts, one of which is under threat, and that is an extend it so that full consultation can take place in those abysmal prospect for those with any notion of local communities? I hope he will write to me, giving answers justice. to my specific questions. I intend putting that information out in the community, giving people a reasonable time I heard what the hon. Member for Ceredigion said to give me feedback and for me to pass it on to the about amalgamating magistrates court areas. I can assure Minister. Will he review the time scale? him that people from Pembrokeshire will be required to travel all the way up to north Ceredigion; indeed, people I have other specific questions. How many cases have are already doing that in the area that I represent. been moved from the Rhyll and Denby courts to other Consequently, justices of the peace are not putting their courts over the past two or three years, and to which names forward for appointment, and good people who courts were they moved? The equality impact assessment could do a decent, good job for their communities are in the public consultation document provides no assessment not doing so. It is not a coincidence that we have an of the potential impact on users broken down by disability, advert for 30 district judges. It is disturbing but true gender, ethnicity, impact on families and—dare I say that the proposals will be one of the nails in the coffin it?—social class. Who will be affected, and who will be of the lay magistracy, and we should not run away from adversely affected? that fact. Will the Minister provide me with the number of cases heard annually in the last three financial years and One thing about being in the House for a while is that how it compares to the national average? Will he provide one sometimes has a feeling of déjà vu. In the 1992 me with the projections made by Her Majesty’s Courts Parliament, the Blaenau Ffestiniog court in my constituency Service for the future caseload of those courts, and the was threatened. We appealed, but, fortunately, a general utilisation figures for each court affected and each of election intervened, and there was then a new Minister. the courtrooms in them? How many courtrooms are What came out of that process, however, was that there in each of those courts, and how many courtrooms closing the court offered a marginal saving of £11,000, are currently in use? but that did not take into account the added travelling time for solicitors, barristers, police, JPs, probation Will the Minister tell me the number of cases disposed officers and, in youth cases, social service workers. of in chambers over the last three years, and the breakdown When that was taken into account, there was no saving. of the number of staff in each of the courts affected by What makes all this worse is that about £10,000 or grade, by full and part-time working, and by disability, £15,000 was spent on the building a few months ago to gender and race? Is it possible to have the court user make it DDA-compliant, but it is now being shut down. surveys for the two courts affected in my constituency? Has the maintenance backlog been included in the I hope that we have a proper consultation, and I echo savings? If so, has finance been set aside, or is it merely all the questions that the hon. Member for Vale of sleight of hand? What were the maintenance costs for Clwyd (Chris Ruane) has just asked. I also ask the the buildings in Rhyll and Denby over the last three Minister to tell me how many cases have been moved years, and has there been any refurbishment in the past from Pwllheli magistrates in the past three years, where 15 years? If work is to be transferred, what are the they ended up and how many hearings were involved. estimated refurbishment costs at the receiving courts? Why is it considered appropriate for one of the largest Which will be the receiving courts in my constituency? constituencies in Wales to have one magistrates court? If the reason for closure is the state of the accommodation, For heaven’s sake, it is ridiculous. has alternative accommodation been sought in Rhyll or When I qualified back in the mists of time—in the Denby? If not, why not? mid-70s—there were six magistrates courts in Meirionnydd. Those are the questions that I would like the Minister Arguably, that might have been too many, but we now to answer, and I would appreciate him doing so as soon face the prospect of having just one magistrates court in as possible. I can then pass the answers on to my a far larger area than the whole of Meirionnydd. I am constituents so that we can have full, proper and meaningful deeply concerned. consultation about the proposed closures. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): 3.9 pm Like me, the hon. Gentleman represents a large rural Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I constituency. Does he find it paradoxical that new declare an interest as a former solicitor and a member housing developments take place in rural constituencies of the Bar? I have practised in every one of the courts such as ours, but that services are centralised in the 293WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 294WH cities and moved away from rural areas, with a total because they will be relatively disadvantaged in accessing disregard for long-term population growth? That is the justice, while others will have an advantage over them, same long-term plan on which the consultation is premised. which cannot be right. The consultation document describes Trowbridge county Mr Llwyd: That is absolutely right. That is contributing court as underused, but that is not so. It is open five to rural poverty and to difficulties in obtaining services days a week, which is not necessarily the case for many in rural areas, and we are talking in this debate about a of the courts under consideration. For example, it is service. used more than Bath, which is 12 miles away, and I am also concerned about the notion that somebody Salisbury, which is 30 miles away. from Aberdaron in the west of my constituency can get The proposals seem to rely on assumptions about the to the proposed centre in Caernarfon by bus by 10 o’clock utility of video links, telephones and online services. I in the morning. I doubt whether that is possible, but if it would counsel a bit of caution, however, because I have were, there is the likely and plausible scenario that they great experience of the health service, where plans have will meet witnesses on that same bus. What happens historically been put in place that rely on assumptions next? Interference with justice, and perhaps even violence—I about developments and innovations that are, in fact, do not know. I am concerned about that. I hope that several years down the line. If the current proposals this is meant to be a proper consultation, but I have take effect, and we close court houses on the assumption my doubts. that innovation would take up the slack in some way, we The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) might be a little premature. made a few points. It is proposed to close Llangefni The proposals are driven by a need to update premises magistrates court and Llangefni county court and to and to ensure that we comply with domestic and European move matters to Holyhead. The consultation document legislation. That is all very well, but there is a dynamic says that Holyhead is 20 miles away by bus. Curiously, between the need to upgrade and the need to maintain although the magistrates court in Llangefni is opposite equal access to justice. We note that Lord Young is the county court—they are within yards of each other—the reviewing the impact of health and safety legislation, document tells us that it is 20.6 miles from the magistrates and many of his findings may be relevant to the debate. in Llangefni to the magistrates in Holyhead and that We have some experience in Wiltshire of the need to that costs £2.60 on the bus, but that it is 20 miles to upgrade court houses. In Salisbury, a great palace of Holyhead from across the road and costs 60p less on the justice has been created, and its case was based on the same bus. I do not think that the documents are at all need to upgrade premises. As a result, we lost Trowbridge robust. We want proper, robust figures; we want the magistrates court, disadvantaging my most disadvantaged justification for these damaging closures. However, I constituents. end by saying that in my nearly 20 years in this place, I have not yet seen a serious consultation take place in I genuinely hope that the consultation will be conducted August. with an open mind. Indeed, under the stewardship of my hon. Friend the Minister, I am confident that it will be. I am equally confident that he will see good sense 3.5 pm and make sure that Trowbridge county court is removed Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I from the list of the vulnerable. congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing this important debate. Unlike the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), I believe 3.9 pm that the consultation will be conducted in the right Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I, too, congratulate spirit. I am also sure that my hon. Friend the Minister the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on will be open to reasonable persuasion, and I make my securing the debate, and on signing my early-day motion. remarks in that context. Equally, I understand that he, Many hon. Members have specific concerns and have like all Ministers, needs to effect savings in the extremely rightly advanced arguments about equality of access to difficult financial circumstances that we have inherited. justice in rural areas. As I was pointing out, my constituency Nevertheless, it is an important principle of law in this in the Rhondda is not, properly speaking, rural, although country that there should be equality before the law and we still have sheep parading down the streets most days that people should have equal access to justice, and it is of the week—mostly in an inconvenient way—and nearly access that chiefly concerns me. every house is within half a mile of a farm. Those are In Trowbridge, the county town of Wiltshire, which is very different farms from the ones in Surrey and other a very rural area, we have experience of court closures. parts of the country, but nevertheless it feels to many Under the previous Administration, we had the closure people as if they need only lift their eyes to see the hills. of Trowbridge magistrates court, and I have to tell the The Rhondda feels like a rural community. More Minister that that has not improved access to justice importantly, the communities there are valley communities, one bit. Although I fully accept that vulnerable groups and the further one goes up the valley the less access are perhaps likely to be more disadvantaged in magistrates there tends to be to larger shops or, for that matter, the courts than in the county court system, because of the services provided by national Government, the Welsh kinds of case that are heard in them, the same argument Assembly Government or local government. That is nevertheless applies to county courts. Some hon. Members one of the problems driving depopulation at the top will be surprised to learn that there are a large number ends of some valleys, which may be very beautiful but of vulnerable and disadvantaged people in my constituency, none the less have economic problems. People rightly and they will be disadvantaged by the closure of Trowbridge ask themselves, “Is someone just choosing to close county court. I am concerned about them above all us down?” 295WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 296WH

[Chris Bryant] on in a household. My anxiety is that if people feel that such justice will be more distant and that it will not be One of the very few national Government presences as easy to get access to it, we shall be likely to bear down in the Rhondda now, other than the police, is the less on the domestic violence problems in the Rhondda. Llwynypia magistrates court. Her Majesty’s Revenue I have one other concern. I remember the last attempt and Customs has moved out many of its staff who to close the Llwynypia magistrates court, which was worked in the Rhondda. In fact it has been moving under a Labour Government. I was then Parliamentary them out of Pontypridd as well. My argument to the Private Secretary to Lord Falconer, who was trying to Government is that I of course fully understand that close it, and I managed to see that closure off—with the savings must be made—the Ministry of Justice must help of the present interim leader of the Labour party, ensure that it operates justice in the most financially who was ferocious in my support. A key argument, efficient way available, especially in these straitened besides equality of access, in particular for some of the financial circumstances, but there are two functions poorest communities in south Wales, was the investment involved. The first is that of providing justice efficiently that had already been made in the building. The question and effectively; however, the other is how to create links arose of how to ensure that witnesses could have secure with every other aspect of government. If it feels as access and a separate entrance, to prevent intimidation, though whenever a choice must be made, the Government which can happen all too easily in small, tight-knit constantly choose to close offices in more peripheral communities; how to provide secure accommodation communities, longer-term economic problems are effectively for complainants; and how to make the whole process created in the areas concerned, and they will have to be of involvement with the court safe and secure. That is rectified by another part of Government. possible in part because the court is in a beautiful rural The classic instance is crime in the Rhondda. If we area, immediately next to the Glyncornel park, which have a greater sense of deprivation and of the Rhondda has, as I am sure the Minister will know, the largest being a place where people lived in the past, but where colony of Deptford pinks in the country. I am concerned they should not bother to live in the future, because that if the magistrates court closes there will be yet even the Government cannot be bothered to keep a another building in the Rhondda to symbolise the magistrates court there, we will have greater problems retreat of the Government from areas in the valleys. with economic revival in the constituency, and that will The sense of that, especially given that the building is lead to greater crime problems. In addition, the Rhondda not far from the old powerhouse where the Tonypandy is not an easy place to get around without a car, and riots happened a hundred years ago this year, will feel many of my constituents cannot afford one—in particular emotionally to the people in the Rhondda as if something the 13,000 pensioners. Because of that geography, with important has closed. two valleys—some say a passport is needed to go from As a final point, I hope that the Minister will consider one to the other—it is already all too easy for defendants this as he proceeds: “More haste, less speed.” We have never to turn up at court. For that matter, it is pretty seen in the past few weeks that trying to make cuts too easy for witnesses to crimes not to bother to turn up. fast, and therefore producing inaccurate lists that lead Consequently, magistrates court officials and the police to further problems, not only causes more anxiety in spend vast amounts of time pursuing defendants who communities than necessary, but makes people feel that should have been at court on a certain day, to get them the judgments being made are somewhat arbitrary. I to make an appearance the following week. That is one hope that the Minister will extend the consultation of the most significant elements of the inefficiency in period by a month so that more people can take part, the present service. I am concerned that the problems not least because some of the professionals involved will multiply if Llwynypia magistrates court, which has want to be able to arrive at a coherent policy. None of managed to improve its statistics dramatically in the us wants to oppose for the sake of opposing—we past 10 years, is lost and the services are moved to understand the financial situation—but I hope that the Pontypridd a few miles down the road, which has some Minister will postpone the cut-off date so that it does bus services and a train service from one half of the not feel quite so arbitrary as it may do now. constituency but not the other. The police will again spend more time trying to force defendants and witnesses Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): The hon. Member for to go to the first court date, rather than a second or Hexham (Guy Opperman) has assured me that he will third. That will mean that fewer people will get justice. take only two minutes. The Rhondda is not a high-crime area. Sometimes, because of the way the valleys are often presented by 3.28 pm the BBC and national newspapers—we are of interest only when there is a drugs death—people think that the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Hexham constituency level of criminality is high. That is not true. For the used to have three magistrates courts and now we have most part it is a safe area, and many people still leave only one. We are the second biggest constituency in their front doors open perfectly contentedly, because England and, if Tynedale magistrates court goes, an they know that. None the less, there are significant area well in excess of 1,150 square miles will have no areas of crime, including domestic violence in particular. magistrates court whatsoever. I have great sympathy The local senior police officer recently told me that if he with the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd added together the domestic violence cases from the (Mr Llwyd), whose position is similar to mine. As a three constituencies around mine he would not get to former practising member of the Bar I find the idea that the number of cases from my constituency. An important that would work on a regular basis astonishing. aspect of the work done in our magistrates court is getting justice in domestic violence cases, particularly in Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. For his two light of the steady growth in such violence that may go minutes the hon. Gentleman should face the Chair. 297WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 298WH

Guy Opperman: I am sorry, Mr Hood. of Justice, concerned 20 courts rather than 157. Given From many parts of the constituency there is no bus the scale of the proposals, the Minister must offer an that would get me to Newcastle or Bedlington in the explanation and make a concerted effort to reassure morning. The Government will clearly have to examine people. the way in which they look after rural services. Rural Let me be clear that we do not oppose, by any stretch services and the rural economy must be reappraised. of the imagination, all court closures regardless of the Many things have happened in the past, but I should circumstances; that is not our position. As we all know, not like the first step of this Government to be the courts have their ancient origins in much smaller immediate institution of a situation in which there is no administrative areas than those that exist today and magistrates court for 12,000 square miles. they originated at a time when travel costs, travel patterns and the practicalities of getting across long distances 3.30 pm within a reasonable amount of time were all very different Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I from what they are today. Although individual Members congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) have raised particular local issues as they know them in on securing this debate, which has been widely welcomed their own areas, that is just a case of Members being by Members from across the House. In particular, we good local representatives; it is for the Minister to deal have an extremely healthy representation of MPs from with the issues in his consultation. Wales, who are obviously concerned about this issue. Courts were run locally in the late 19th and early The context of the debate is the truly massive programme 20th centuries and they continued to be organised locally of court closures that the Government announced by until the formation of Her Majesty’s Courts Service in written ministerial statement on 23 June. The proposal 2005. Things now are very different from how they were to close 157 courts—almost 40% of all magistrates courts in the past and that can mean that we need different and nearly 25% of all county courts—is exceptional in ways of organising things. its size and scale. It is not just me who thinks that. As a party we are still committed, as we were in Frances Gibb from The Times called it government, to providing local justice and access to “a draconian plan for the widespread closure of courts across local justice. However, it is equally important that there England and Wales.” should be a modern court estate that is properly aligned Andrew Porter from The Daily Telegraph said: to local needs and that court services should be provided “Magistrates courts in England and Wales are to be severely not on an historical basis, but on the basis of what we reduced as part of the Government’s cuts programme.” need today. It is important for there to be efficiency in It is for the Minister to answer the points that have the court facilities and in the utilisation of the court been raised during this debate, but I noted with interest estate. Therefore, it is appropriate that there should be the MPs who had things to say. The hon. Member for reviews and that Ministers, as they come and go, examine Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) spoke, the issue of how the estate should be utilised. There is as did the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew no problem with that. Percy), who has come back for a second go. My hon. It is also important that our more modern ways of Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) doing things in the courts should be reflected in how the has made a contribution. The hon. Member for Dwyfor courts are organised. These days, that must include the Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), whose constituency name separation and protection of witnesses, to ensure that has changed, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire special measures, which are increasingly used in our (Dr Murrison), who is one of our English participants, courts, can be dealt with properly. There must also be and the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) proper access for disabled court-users. All those matters also spoke. Let me now say something about the position must be examined. In my experience, value for money of Her Majesty’s Opposition. is and always has been an important consideration. I believe that the formation of Her Majesty’s Courts 3.31 pm Service in 2005 has allowed a better overall strategic Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. grasp of the entire court estate. As an Opposition, we do not oppose all court closures 3.46 pm per se as a matter of principle. Some court closures are On resuming— clearly justified. Indeed, courts have closed in numbers over the years to deal with both the historical legacies Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. Divisions are a and the practical requirements of a modernising system. bit like the World cup—we get extra time, but no Some of those closures were locally determined by penalty kicks. magistrates courts committees and some were nationally I call Maria Eagle again. determined. Research indicates that there were about 650 magistrates Maria Eagle: Thank you, Mr Hood. I was about to courts in the late 1970s. There are now about 335; the start setting out the position of Her Majesty’s Opposition Minister will have the precise figure, although given the as we were called away for the Division. performance of the Secretary of State for Education in We believe that there are legitimate questions to be respect of marshalling lists, I hope that the Minister has asked about the scale and the purpose of these proposals had a close look at his. I am sure that he will have for court closures. They are unprecedented in size and double-checked it. scale, which in itself means that there are questions that I accept fully that in certain circumstances and for must be asked. The previous court closure announcement, appropriate reasons, courts might have to close. That which was made while I was a Minister at the Ministry might also mean that new ones should open—indeed, 299WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 300WH

[Maria Eagle] Chris Bryant: Will my hon. Friend give way? we opened 23 new magistrates courts during the last Maria Eagle: Briefly, but I need to make my speech. Administration. Given the size and scale of the proposals, I also think that the closures should proceed, if the Chris Bryant: Does my hon. Friend remember all the Minister decides that they should, only after extensive excoriation poured on Jacqui Smith for doing precisely and genuine consultation. The proposals are a major what she did? acceleration of any previous court closure proposals introduced in the past few decades. It is incumbent on Maria Eagle: I remember that also. The point is that the Government to be clear that they are getting it right collective responsibility is still a constitutional principle according to all the correct criteria. in this country, and that a senior Law Officer appears to Many Members who have contributed to this debate be opposing an element of the Under-Secretary’s proposals. have called for a proper extension to the consultation so It is not only the Solicitor-General. The Deputy that most of it will not take place in August, when Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Somerton people might reasonably be expected to be on holiday. I and Frome (Mr Heath), opposes his Government’s proposal hope that the Minister will respond to that request. I to close Frome magistrates court and has made that cannot see why there should be any objection, so he opposition clear to his local newspaper, the Frome and should consider it. The Department has issued an extensive Somerset Standard. The right hon. Member for Sutton consultation document. We have heard from some Members Coldfield (Mr Mitchell)—a Cabinet Minister, no less—has that it has apparent inaccuracies; obviously, they will also take up that matter with the Department. I hope that the Minister will listen to the consultation. Otherwise, “vowed to lead the fight to save a city magistrates’ court”, on today’s showing, he is likely to incur the wrath of his according to the Birmingham Mail. A swathe of newly own colleagues. elected Conservative Members also opposed the announced I notice that if one looks at local newspapers, the closures—we have heard from one or two of them Government appear divided on the programme. Senior today; more power to them—and the hon. Member for members of both parties in the governing coalition Ceredigion, who secured this debate, is also a member appear to oppose it when it applies to their own of the governing party. The Minister might have a constituencies. Has the Parliamentary Under-Secretary difficulty on his hands. He is in danger of starting a spoken to the Solicitor-General lately? It appears that revolt among his Government supporters rivalling that the Solicitor-General opposes the programme of closures, created by the Secretary of State for Education. It will at least in so far as it affects Harborough in his constituency. take some going, but he might get there. There are proposals to close courts in Harborough, How genuine is the consultation? A number of hon. Coalville and Melton to save £300,000 a year. The local Members have asked that question during this debate, bench opposes it, and the Liberal Democrat group has partly because of the scale of the proposals, the speed launched a petition against it, which the Solicitor-General with which they have been produced and the speed with supports, in opposition to the Under-Secretary’s proposals. which the Minister intends to proceed with them. How The Solicitor-General said to his local newspaper, the much is the announcement of a huge court closure Harborough Mail: programme driven by money alone, and by this “We need to gather a good evidence-based case to put in Government’s increasing dogma of slashing the size of through the Ministry of Justice consultation process with a view the state—some might say for ideological reasons—at to their realising what a mistake it would be to close Harborough’s all costs? court…we need to organise and get the campaign rolling.” The Justice Secretary made a speech on 30 June that was reported mostly for his comment that he wanted to Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The hon. reduce the use of prison as a way of tackling crime. Lady, like me and other Ministers, has had to sit in this However, he also said about the courts: Chamber on many occasions and listen to the genuine “Obviously it would be nice, for historic reasons, if we could representations of Labour Members critical of the local keep all of the old court buildings that we are used to across the aspects of her proposals. country.But in these difficult times, an under-used and under-repaired courts estate is an extravagance we simply cannot afford. So we Maria Eagle: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. have identified the potential to make a one-off saving of £21 million However, I did not expect to read promises in local and annual savings of £15.5 million in running and maintenance newspapers that members of my Government, bound costs. These are savings we must make”. by collective responsibility, would campaign against my That smacks of a decision already taken and suggests proposals. that the consultations might be no more than window dressing. I am certainly not the only person who has Dr Murrison: In a similar vein, does the hon. Lady raised that issue in this debate. The Justice Secretary has recall the conduct of Jacqui Smith, the former Member already determined the outcome: for Redditch, in relation to the closure of facilities in “These are savings we must make”. her constituency when those facilities were the responsibility of the Department in which she was a Minister? Those savings depend on the closure of 40% of all remaining magistrates courts and 25% of our county Maria Eagle: My view of ministerial and collective courts. responsibility is that Ministers talk to each other behind We will be watching closely to see whether any of the the collective view of the Government if they want to Minister’s proposals that we are discussing are not make representations. They do not send press releases implemented. In the past, proposals to close courts have to their local newspapers. not all gone ahead. Some right hon. and hon. Gentlemen 301WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 302WH have explained today that they saved courts from closure out the wider position, although I recognise that the proposals, which showed a listening Government who number of hon. Members from Welsh constituencies were willing to change their mind. Will this Government who have attended the debate is significant. be willing to change their mind, or will the Minister go I will set out the Government’s position on the court ahead with all the proposed court closures? We will be reform proposals and discuss the reasoning behind the watching to find out. proposed reorganisation of court provision in England It is perhaps not surprising that the Justice Secretary and Wales. In my new role, I have taken the opportunity should be suggesting that the fall in crime by one third to visit courts and I have been very impressed by all I during Labour’s tenure in office—at least he accepts have seen so far. It is evident that courts are run by a that it happened; the Home Secretary does not—had dedicated partnership of Her Majesty’s Courts Service nothing to do with serious and dangerous offenders staff and judiciary.I am personally committed to continuing being locked up. Both the MOJ and Home Office to support their contribution to justice. budgets will be cut by between 25% and 40%, inevitably What has also been clear in my first few weeks in leading to a justice system that is less able to cope with office is the country’s economic position and the immediate the number of people involved in it. need to take action to address the structural deficit. The We have concerns about whether the closure programme hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) is merely a part of the overall attempt to reduce the size compared the previous Government’s 20 closures in five of the justice system generally. We fear so. The Under- years with our consultation on a much larger proposed Secretary will no doubt protest that it is no such thing, closure programme. She will appreciate that the deficit but let us see how many of the proposed closures do not is somewhat larger now, which, as she recognised, requires proceed. That will be one litmus test by which we can that we get better value for the money we spend. determine whether my fears or the reassurances that he Following the emergency Budget, my right hon. Friend will no doubt give are accurate. the Lord Chancellor outlined our plans to consult on As well as those assurances, I seek a couple of other the closure of a number of courts, and to seek wider answers from the Minister about whether he is taking views on how court services could be modernised. That important matters into account. My hon. Friend the is one strand of the Ministry of Justice’s plans to look Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised the issue of critically and holistically at how we deliver justice and domestic violence. How many of the courts that the to think about how we continue to deliver those critical Minister proposes to close are problem-solving courts, services in the future. We have also announced plans to domestic violence courts, community courts, mental look at sentencing and legal aid. I am committed to health courts or drug courts? Has he considered that? consulting on the proposals, and to considering broader The previous Government planned to select and establish ways to improve and reform the Courts Service, which 128 domestic violence courts by 2011, and had reached is why I welcome this debate. However, I say to the hon. 122 by the time of the general election. Domestic violence Lady that we consider the consultation period to be is a devastating and hidden crime. The courts that we adequate in the circumstances. set up brought together a range of aspects of the The decision to consult on the closure of courts was criminal justice system to ensure that that crime was not taken lightly or in isolation. I wish I could say to the tackled properly. It worked. Prosecutions have doubled hon. Lady that the savings would be adequate to meet in the past four years, with 72.5% of cases resulting in a Treasury requirements, which I think was a point she successful prosecution. That is a great success. made. However, that is sadly not the case. It would be What steps is the Under-Secretary taking to preserve wrong to tie the number of courts that finally close after the Courts Service’s capacity to deliver such a difficult, consultation to overall savings requirements. We know problem-solving approach in the remaining court estate— we cannot deliver the quality of facilities that the public however big that ends up being? What account is he rightly expect and deserve, because we are working out taking of the need to preserve the excellent work that of too many courts. has been done, which has led to a joined-up and A low utilisation rate of only 65% across England co-ordinated approach from all criminal justice agencies? and Wales in the magistrates courts and an average of Finally, will the Minister give us some reassurances only 130 sitting days per year—compared with a target about the length of the consultation and say whether he of 200 sitting days—in the county courts shows that we will extend it? There is clearly a concern across all do not need the number of courts we have. Recent parties and among a wide range of Members that his improvements in transport and communication links swift announcement has provided too short a time to mean that people can travel further in less time if they allow proper reassurance and proper consultation to need to and more can be done to access justice online take place. and via the telephone. That reduces the circumstances in which a visit to court would be necessary.

4pm Maria Eagle: Does the Minister accept that such The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice under-utilisation is because of a fall in crime of more (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): This has been a full debate, than a third during the last period of the Labour with many hon. Members speaking with passion for Government? their constituencies and, indeed, for the courts in their constituencies. I thank the hon. Member for Ceredigion Mr Djanogly: There are a large number of issues. I (Mr Williams) for not only initiating the debate, but will come to some of them, but if I give way frequently, broadening the scope of the discussion to the whole there is no way I will get through the points made today. Courts Service, rather than just focusing on the courts We need to focus on delivering more with less, and on in his constituency. That is helpful in allowing me to set ensuring that we are delivering value for taxpayers’ 303WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 304WH

[Mr Djanogly] years, there has been an overall reduction in the magistrates work load of around a third. In turn, that has resulted money. When HMCS owns, manages and pays for a in the magistrates court estate being utilised at an court building, it is my responsibility to show that it is average of only around 65%. In county courts, reductions cost-effective. It is right to set a minimum utilisation in work load stem from the wider availability of alternatives rate of 80% across each local justice area, so that local to court, such as the range of alternative ways of courts and magistrates can make local decisions about resolving disputes. If people can be spared the inconvenience where work should go. and, for some, the stress of attending court for routine The court reform consultation seeks views on proposals matters that do not need to go before a judge, we should to close 103 magistrates courts and 54 county courts do all we can to open up alternatives for them. that are underused and/or have inadequate facilities. I turn to the matters relating to the constituency of The consultation lasts until 15 September and all responses the hon. Member for Ceredigion and the proposal to will be fully considered before a decision is made. The close Cardigan magistrates court. He will have a fuller consultation sets out a sustainable arrangement of court answer than other hon. Members, because he initiated services across England and Wales to meet the needs of the debate. However, if other Members wish to know local communities, and allows us to deliver services in more, they can write to me later. the most efficient way. The proposals will achieve running- If Cardigan magistrates court were to close, the work cost savings of some £15.3 million per year, as well as would mainly transfer to Aberystwyth magistrates court. enabling us to avoid a backlog of some £21.5 million of Merging the Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire local justice maintenance costs. A further assessment will be necessary areas, as is also proposed, would allow cases to be heard of the level of savings that could be achieved and the at Haverfordwest magistrates court. I am aware that the potential value that could be released from the disposal utilisation rate of Cardigan magistrates court is extremely of properties. low—just 22%—which is in part because of the lack of Local justice is important. We need to think about custody facilities at the court. That has resulted in a what that means for today’s society, and I welcome much reduced variety of work being heard there. responses to the consultation. People should not have Let me make the situation clear. The utilisation rate to make unreasonably long journeys to reach a court. across the whole Dyfed Powys criminal justice board The vast majority of the public should be able to access area is just 47%, which means that there is a general a court within an hour’s travel, but proximity to a court over-supply of courtrooms and little justification to should not be the only consideration. We also need to spend additional money on new facilities and courts in consider utilisation, the maintenance situation, the speed the area. If Cardigan magistrates court were to close, cases are dealt with and the quality of the facilities for the hon. Gentleman is understandably concerned about court users within a courthouse. the difficulty his residents and people who live in the I confirm to the hon. Member for Ceredigion that we surrounding area would face in travelling to court elsewhere. are considering how we can enable magistrates to work The hon. Gentleman made the case generally for west more effectively. HMCS will work with justices of the Wales. He should advise the consultation of his concerns, peace to rota them to the courts that are most convenient which will be listened to and considered in the consultation’s for them. The structure and organisation of our courts impact assessment. I welcome responses on that and has evolved over years. We need to take a step back and any other concerns about potential impacts. think about how we would ideally organise this important public service. We need to make courts available in the Mr Mark Williams: I am grateful to the Minister for areas that need them, but I contend that we simply do what he has said so far, but I would like to hear a little not need 530 courts across the country. Instead, we more about rural-proofing. I was concerned enough must focus on ensuring that our courts are multi-functional about Ceredigion and west Wales, but having heard and able to deal with all the work quickly and effectively. some of the earlier contributions, I am now even more In recent years, we have seen a dramatic reduction in concerned about the situation in Hexham and in north cases that need to go before magistrates and county Wales generally. People will have to travel vast distances, courts. In answer to the hon. Member for Garston and and the public transport system simply does not comply Halewood, in magistrates courts that has happened in with those needs. part thanks to the increased speed and efficiency at which the magistracy process works, allowing a reduction Mr Djanogly: Let us consider that travel problem as it in the time taken between charge and disposal, and a relates to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, which I dramatic reduction in the number of unnecessary am sure he wants to hear about. The distance between intermediate hearings. However, we also know that Cardigan and Aberystwyth is 38 miles, which is about more defendants are pleading guilty at the first hearing, an hour’s drive, or approximately two hours by bus. The and that certain types of case no longer need a judicial distance between Cardigan and Haverfordwest is 29 miles, hearing, such as low-level nuisance offending and licensing which is a drive of around 48 minutes or a bus journey cases. of approximately one hour and 15 minutes. I accept the It may help the hon. Lady if I mention some figures point that those distances are measured from the current that illustrate that trend. Cases commenced in the court and that some of his constituents will have longer magistrates courts fell by 33% between 2004 and 2009. journeys. In 2009-10, 33 magistrates courts sat for less than 33% However, by merging the Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion of their total available hours, and 55 courts sat for less local justice areas, it should be possible to be more than 50% of their total available hours. Since 2007, the flexible and effective and to have fewer cases, with the number of hearings per case has fallen by more than location of victims, witnesses and defendants in mind. 20% to 2.26 hearings per case in 2009-10. So in five For example, HMCS could work with the police to 305WH Courts Service14 JULY 2010 Courts Service 306WH ensure that cases originating south of Cardigan are in defence of his local courts, and I agree with him. He heard at Haverfordwest and that those originating north will wish to make his further findings known to the of Cardigan are heard in Aberystwyth. However, when consultation. discussing travelling distances and times we must bear I will write to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd in mind that people in the surrounding area often have (Chris Ruane) to respond to his numerous questions, their own transport arrangements for other purposes. but I can assure him now that in our view the consultation In any case—I say this in reply also to my hon. Friend period is adequate. The hon. Member for Dwyfor the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison)—most Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) has much court experience, members of the public will need magistrates court services and he spoke strongly about the courts in his constituency pretty infrequently in the course of their lives. being consulted about closure. I assure him that access to justice is relevant to the consultation, but good, The hon. Member for Ceredigion referred to the efficient and timely justice is not necessarily a question redevelopment of the court at Aberystwyth, which I of bricks and mortar. realise is of as great interest to him as the potential closure of the court at Cardigan. Although work from We need fresh thinking on the wider question of Cardigan could now easily be absorbed at Aberystwyth, access to justice. We need to consider whether the ideas he will be aware that HMCS plans to build a new court of the past about needing a court in every town are at Aberystwyth. Nothing would please me more than to relevant today, or whether, as with almost every other give him greater certainty about the future of that aspect of modern life, things can be done differently. We project, but he will appreciate that I am unable to do so need to embrace innovation and technology to ensure at the moment. It is within the HMCS portfolio of better access to justice and meet the needs of modern major building projects and is at the final business case society. We are already doing much to improve the stage, but as the proposed construction will run into service experienced by witnesses, defendants and other 2011-12, the project will need to be assessed by the users of the courts. We have increased access to online Treasury in the spending review process. and telephone services; currently, 70% of money claims and the vast majority of possession actions in the The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr county courts are issued centrally via electronic channels. (Jonathan Edwards) referred in his speech to the magistrates People can pay fines online for driving infringements or court at Ammanford, and I assure him that we have for not paying their TV licence fee on time. They can given thought to its inclusion in the proposals. There also pay off debts or court fees online using a wide are two courts in his constituency on whose closure we variety of methods. are consulting—Ammanford and Llandovery magistrates I am not sure how much time I have remaining, given courts. If closed, it is envisaged that work from those the suspension. courts would be transferred to Llanelli and Carmarthen magistrates courts, but no decisions will be made on Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): One minute. work load transfer until the consultation responses have Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend the Member for South been considered and the Secretary of State has decided West Wiltshire spoke up for his court in Trowbridge, which courts will close. which I understand is— My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. We must move on (Andrew Percy) today made his second passionate speech to the next debate. 307WH 14 JULY 2010 Frenchay Hospital 308WH

Frenchay Hospital “While we are denied an independent inquiry we will never know whether the decision to downgrade Frenchay was made in the best interests of our residents...Sadly for us in South 4.15 pm Gloucestershire, the Government has made it very clear that it is Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Thank you, supporting the downgrading of Frenchay a has no intention of intervening to even allow this to be questioned or scrutinised.” Mr Hood, for calling me to initiate this important debate on the future of Frenchay hospital. My constituency That is a view I continue to share. is currently served by Frenchay hospital’s acute hospital Ultimately, the previous Government’s decision not facilities, so its downgrading is one of my constituents’ to refer the decision to downgrade Frenchay hospital to most important concerns. The decision to downgrade an independent reconfiguration panel has resulted in the hospital and establish a new super-hospital at the current situation. Five years after the original proposals Southmead in Bristol was taken as part of the Bristol for the Bristol health services plan were formulated, the health services plan in March 2005. Meanwhile, Frenchay contracts for the new super-hospital at Southmead were is to become a community hospital, the development of finally signed in February 2010. The result, I am informed, which will take place in 2014. is that that has ultimately dealt a death blow to any Five years might seem a long time ago, but over those chance of the hospital retaining its acute hospital facilities. years the future of the hospital has remained an ongoing I am also informed that, the contracts having already point of concern and debate. The decision to downgrade been signed under the previous Government, reversing is deeply unpopular and has been challenged by South that decision seems impossible as it would come at Gloucestershire council and tens of thousands of local massive cost to the NHS and the Government because residents, nearly 50,000 of whom petitioned the then of the legal implications. Secretary of State for Health, Patricia Hewitt, to allow I would be grateful to the Minister for any comments for the decision to be referred to an independent he might have on that matter. Has the previous reconfiguration panel. In my view, those are 50,000 Government’s refusal to allow local people to have their reasons why the hospital should be saved, but the petition say on where their local hospital and acute facilities was rejected, as was a request by South Gloucestershire should be located meant that it is too late to intervene? council’s health scrutiny sub-committee that the matter I understand that on 20 May 2010 the Secretary of be referred to the same panel. Instead, the then Health State wrote to all NHS chief executives, advising them Minister, Lord Warner, said that he saw that their current and proposed reconfigurations must “no reason to ask the Bristol health services plan to reconsider…There meet four criteria: they must have the support of GP is no need to refer the decision to the independent reconfiguration panel.” commissioners; they must have strengthened arrangements to ensure that local people’s views are not ignored; they The current Health Secretary also supported at the must be supported by clear clinical evidence; and they time the move for a referral to the independent must support and develop patient choice. reconfiguration panel. In a letter dated 27 July 2005, he wrote to Ms Hewitt, stating: I am very interested to hear from the Minister whether “Plans to change radically hospital provision on the scale there has been any response to that letter from North proposed in Bristol and South Gloucestershire clearly need to Bristol NHS Trust, as many local people would not have the confidence and support of the community served by agree that those four criteria have been met. I hope that these hospitals. It seems clear that currently the proposal to that is not the case but, if it is, does the Minister agree downgrade Frenchay does not have the support of tens of thousands with me that the downgrading of Frenchay hospital was of local people…my reason for supporting referral is that I Labour’s downgrading? If Frenchay must lose its acute believe the people of South Gloucestershire have the right to facilities in 2014, that was not the decision of the expect the decision to deprive them of Frenchay Hospital, as they know it, to be independently scrutinised”. current Government, but of the previous one. The downgrading of Frenchay hospital, if it is to take place, I agree with that letter; he was right that the decision to is a testament to Labour’s NHS record in Kingswood downgrade the hospital should have been independently and south Gloucestershire. That is, in my mind, both a scrutinised, as clearly the decision did not, and still does tragedy and a national disgrace. not, have the support of the local community across south Gloucestershire. For my Kingswood constituents, the decision, taken under the previous Government, to downgrade Frenchay In October 2007, there was further hope that the then hospital will be nothing short of disastrous. In this, the Secretary of State for Heath, the right hon. Member for second decade of the 21st century, local services should Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), be becoming more, not less, convenient and local. Many might reconsider the case for the decision to downgrade constituents are extremely worried about the consequences the hospital to be referred to the independent of the move to Southmead. They are concerned about reconfiguration panel. However, he replied to the request how, in times of greatest need and when their lives by the council’s health select committee simply by stating: might depend on it, they will be able to reach a hospital “The previous Secretary of State, Patricia Hewitt, dealt with over the other side of Bristol. If Frenchay is to become the referral on this issue ... it is not intended to revisit that decision”. a community hospital under the previous Government’s downgrading, we need to look forward, to ensure that The leader of the council, John Calway, commented at the maximum possible numbers of facilities remain the time: there. “This decision will come as a body blow to everyone who is continuing to desperately search for a lifeline for Frenchay…I I do not propose to go into detail about the hospital’s believe the anger at this decision has been compounded by the reconfiguration, as I understand that the Frenchay project fact that the Government has consistently refused local people’s board has yet to finalise details of its scheme. There is, wish for an independent inquiry into the decision.” however, concern over exactly what will remain at Frenchay Councillor Calway then stated: when it becomes a community hospital. Concern has 309WH Frenchay Hospital14 JULY 2010 Frenchay Hospital 310WH been voiced over the future of its world-class facilities—for those locations will have no choice but to travel the instance, the head injury therapy unit, which deals with longer distance to Southmead hospital. The extra travel brain injury rehabilitation services for the community. time in the most severe situations could be the difference There is also the Headway organisation, which is based between life and death, and that prospect horrifies and in the hospital grounds and offers vital support to those alarms me. It is important that we understand the who have suffered a brain injury and would like to situation in which we find ourselves. The decision to remain at Frenchay. The organisation stated last year: downgrade Frenchay might seem to be signed and “we have been unable to get any answers yet as to our future sealed, but I know that I, with the support of my hon. location.” Friend the Member for Kingswood, will continue to Then there are the excellent paediatric burns and fight for what the people of south Gloucestershire neurological units, which will possibly move from Frenchay deserve. ahead of its becoming a community hospital, though If—or when, as is more likely—Frenchay is downgraded decisions have yet to be finalised. in 2014, we must remind ourselves that this was not the As the local MP for an area that depends heavily on decision or desire of this coalition Government. It was, Frenchay, I do not want to see the hospital, if it has as my hon. Friend has mentioned, the decision solely of indeed lost its accident and emergency facilities, to be the previous Labour Administration. For my constituents, run down to the ground and stripped of its world-class the people of Filton and Bradley Stoke, the word facilities. I raise these issues today because I would like “Frenchay” will come to represent the failure of that to see the maximum possible number of facilities remain Labour Government in our local area. The word will at Frenchay hospital. It is still an excellent world-class come to represent how Labour let down every single treatment centre, and I would like to pay tribute to all one of my constituents, by denying them the chance of the fantastic staff, who have worked so hard to make it a good local hospital to treat their growing needs. what it is today. Frenchay is, quite simply, too valuable My hon. Friend has outlined the continuing fight, to lose. and we are tackling it together to ensure that Frenchay secures as many facilities as possible. We need to protect 4.22 pm the future of its world-class facilities—the head injuries unit, the burns unit and the staff—and we will also Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): It is ensure that the promise made about the number of beds a pleasure to speak in this important debate. Frenchay is honoured. I will continue, as the local MP, to do all I hospital is in my constituency, and as the local MP I can to fight for the future of Frenchay. Its future is of would like to pay tribute to the doctors, nurses and vital importance, and I look forward to the Minister’s other staff there. My constituents and I are proud to response and the Government’s view. have it as our local hospital. Indeed, many of my constituents have contacted me about the future of Finally, I pay tribute to the Save Frenchay Hospital Frenchay—about its downgrading and the loss of its Group. Many of its leading members are constituents accident and emergency facilities. What they want is and friends of mine, and it has been my pleasure to simple: to continue to have a great local hospital. work with them on this issue over the past few years. They have done a terrific job of bringing focus and In government, we must work towards and achieve attention to the issue, and their work will not be in vain. good local health care facilities, so that local communities We will fight, and together we will win the battle to keep are able to feel safe and reassured that they, and their the best services possible at Frenchay for years to come. loved ones, will be looked after in their time of need. Thank you. Many of my constituents are rightly concerned about the future of Frenchay and, while I accept that we need investment across the NHS, many of them feel that in 4.26 pm south Gloucestershire we seem to be missing out to our The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon neighbour Bristol when it comes to health care investment. Burns): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Kingswood (Chris Skidmore)on securing this debate. I Skidmore) has already explained, the contracts for know that local health services are a top priority for Frenchay’s downgrading were signed in February this him, and I am sure that his constituents will appreciate year. It is unlikely that that decision can be reversed all he has done in fighting for better health care provision without significant legal cost. Yet let us not ignore the for them. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member fact that access to health care is a huge problem for my for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) on his constituents. If left unchecked, it will continue to worsen contribution, given the constituency interest that he has in the years to come as a direct result of Frenchay’s in the future provision of health care in this area. I pay downgrading. tribute to the NHS staff, both in Kingswood and across Recent growth predictions by South Gloucestershire the whole of Bristol and south Gloucestershire, who council have stated that there will be a requirement for provide such excellent care for my hon. Friends’constituents 21,500 extra houses in the local area by 2026. My and those of other hon. Members. constituency has already seen significant growth, particularly My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood has in the vibrant and thriving community of Bradley Stoke. outlined the strength of feeling in his constituency for Given the expanding population and the growth predicted, the retention of as many services as possible at Frenchay I have to question the logic of allowing Frenchay to lose hospital, following the expected completion of the new its accident and emergency facilities. hospital at Southmead in 2014. I understand that he Many of the local communities in Filton and Bradley would like clarification on the Bristol private finance Stoke are in rural areas. In an emergency situation, initiative scheme. The Government recently conducted when they are in urgent need of treatment, people in a review of all major public spending commitments 311WH Frenchay Hospital14 JULY 2010 Frenchay Hospital 312WH

[Mr Simon Burns] Friend the Secretary of State for Health has made to the criteria for judging reconfigurations, that is a thing made between 1 January 2010 and the general election of the past, although it is of little consolation to my on 6 May, to ensure that they are affordable and consistent hon. Friends. If the final recommendations differ with this Government’s priorities, given the horrendous significantly from what was agreed as part of the Bristol economic situation that we have inherited and the staggering health services plan, NHS South Gloucestershire will level of debt, which, we rightly believe, we should bring proceed with a formal public consultation that will down as a priority because of its implications for the follow the four crucial tests on service changes set out economy as a whole. by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. The north Bristol PFI scheme was considered as part I understand that, to date, the process meets the new of that review, and it was allowed to proceed. After final criteria for the involvement of the public and clinicians, approval was given by the Treasury in February 2010, because the overview and scrutiny committee has accepted the scheme contracts were signed and construction is that the correct procedures have been followed by the now under way. As my hon. Friend mentioned, the project board. Indeed, only last week, it commended NHS would incur significant costs were it to cancel the the PCT on the process that it had undergone. contract, and I am afraid, therefore, that I have to tell Although the new Southmead hospital is going ahead, him that cancellation is not a feasible option. The new I have been assured that any future consultation on Southmead hospital is going ahead, and is due for community health services at Frenchay hospital will completion in 2014. closely involve GPs, local authorities, local people and Both my hon. Friends are absolutely right that the local MPs to ensure that any new developments meet decisions flowing from the reconfiguration in this part the needs and requirements of the local population and of Bristol and south Gloucestershire are the direct satisfy the new criteria laid down by my right hon. result of the actions of the outgoing Labour Government. Friend. I have also been assured that the project board They are not Conservative decisions. They were taken has completed a needs assessment, taking into account by the previous Labour Government and, as my hon. travel requirements, transport routes and population Friends will appreciate, it is too late to reverse them, growth. and to prevent the implications for their constituents. I can inform my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood The business case projects that, due to a range of that no decision has yet been made on the location of diagnostic tests being performed in the community and the brain injury rehabilitation unit that is currently at a greater number of out-patient appointments, there Frenchay. Recommendations on the service will be put will be some 45,000 fewer acute hospital visits per year forward for consideration by the end of the year. However, in the area. That will mean a far more convenient detailed negotiation will be required, as the unit is service for my hon. Friend’s constituents. subject to a private lease. I shall set the issue in context. My hon. Friend will be I am sorry that I have to tell my hon. Friends the aware that, following a public consultation in late 2004 Members for Kingswood and for Filton and Bradley on the proposals to develop health services in Bristol, Stoke that the burns unit will move to the Southmead north Somerset and south Gloucestershire, the NHS acute hospital, as set out in the outline and full business agreed to centralise acute hospital services for north cases in February.In-patient paediatric burns and in-patient Bristol and south Gloucestershire at Southmead. paediatric neurological services will be centralised, along with all children’s in-patient services, at the Bristol In June 2008, as part of the Bristol health services Royal Hospital for Children. In-patient neurological plan, work began to plan community health services services for adults will be based at the new Southmead that would provide more care closer to home in general hospital. practitioner surgeries, community health centres and community hospitals. The Frenchay project board On other local services, the NHS treatment centre in developed recommendations for commissioning community Emersons Green opened in late 2009. It provides procedures services at Frenchay, which were presented to the boards for ear, nose and throat services, general surgery, of the NHS South Gloucestershire and NHS Bristol gynaecology, minor orthopaedics surgery, ophthalmology primary care trusts at the start of 2010. and urology. It increases the choice of provider for my hon. Friends’ constituents and reduces their need to At the beginning of this year, the project board travel to larger acute sites in Bristol. The PCT has shared its recommendations on how services could be assured me of its commitment to working with local developed with local GPs, the then Members of Parliament GPs and patient groups to ensure that services are and a range of community groups. The board has now accessible to my hon. Friends’ constituents. Minor injury shared its draft options with the overview and scrutiny services are already provided by a GP-led health centre committees of South Gloucestershire and Bristol councils. in Kingswood and at a minor injuries unit in nearby As my hon. Friend will know, local authorities will have Yate. Another minor injuries unit is due to open at a key new role in helping to join up services across the Cossham hospital in 2012. NHS, social care and public health. Overview and scrutiny I applaud the determination that my hon. Friends committees will consider the project board’s final have shown in championing their local health services. recommendations before they are presented to the boards Their constituents, like those of all hon. Members, of NHS South Gloucestershire and NHS Bristol in deserve local health services that have the full support December 2010 and January 2011 respectively. of local GP commissioners and of local people themselves. Let me explain to my hon. Friends the principles of By empowering local clinicians to decide how best to reconfiguration. I recognise that, in the past, local people achieve the right outcomes for local people, this Government have felt that changes to local services have been handled will ensure that the residents of Kingswood are provided badly. However, given the changes that my right hon. with the very best NHS services now and in the future. 313WH Frenchay Hospital 14 JULY 2010 314WH

It is a pity that that attitude—the regard for local Renewable Energy Projects people and the bottom-up approach, rather than a top-down one—was not adopted by the previous Government. If more attention had been paid to the 4.38 pm interests and concerns of my hon. Friends’ constituents, John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): we might not be in the position that we are in today. As I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this important both of them rightly said, this is not—I repeat, not—a issue, and for the support of colleagues who are in decision that has been taken by the current Administration. attendance. My basic case is that if we in this country The coalition Government were not party to the proposals, are serious about tackling climate change, we have to which are a leftover from the Labour Administration. get serious about increasing the amount of energy and As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood said, electricity that we consume from renewable sources. despite all the work that was done by a range of people, We face a familiar problem, which has been too including him, to try to save services at his local hospital familiar over recent years: too often, renewable energy at Frenchay, their views were disregarded by the previous projects have failed to get off the ground and to receive Administration and in the procedures for considering planning consent. Local people and local communities such things. He finds himself in a straitjacket because of have felt disengaged from projects that they thought past decisions. However, the new criteria set by my right were being imposed on them and, as a result, far too hon. Friend the Secretary of State will apply to future often we have ended up with inappropriate sites or with such decisions, and far greater attention will be paid to projects not getting through the morass of the planning the wishes and needs of local people. process. We have to find an acceptable way to change My hon. Friend has an important part to play in the balance, so that we can increase the number of continuing to engage with the local NHS on the community renewables projects that gain consent in an area and get health services planned for Frenchay hospital, and I am genuine local community buy-in to renewable energy. sure that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Filton I welcome some elements of the new Government’s and Bradley Stoke will do all they can to continue to programme, including the wholesale theft, if I may call fight for the interests of their constituents, to ensure it that, of my party’s manifesto pledge to empower that they get good, high-quality NHS provision in their local authorities—councils—to generate electricity from local community. renewable sources. The Minister will know better than I do, from his brief experience of coalition Government, that it involves a little bit of give and take, but I had not realised that it would involve taking wholesale from Labour’s programme. But let’s face it, after we lost the election we were not in a position to implement that pledge any time soon, so it is good that the Government took it up. I hope that the Minister will tell us more about the Government’s interesting plans on business rates, with the potential for giving a reward, in effect, to local people who agree to renewable energy projects. We look forward to hearing more about whether the green investment bank will make a real difference and whether it is to be more than just a Budget item included to give the appearance of doing something.

Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): It is also important for the Minister to set out how the Government envisage resolving any tension that might arise locally between local communities, which have been empowered to advance proposals for renewable energy, particularly through co-operatives, and local authorities that are allowed to bring forward proposals for local energy generation as a source of revenue production.

John Woodcock: My hon. Friend has hit on a key point. There has to be a way to manage that tension. I will say more about co-operative energy solutions. A local authority’s laudable objective must not crowd out the only way that we can get to the root of the problem. There can be a huge gulf between our objective to obtain more energy from renewable sources and the inability or unwillingness to agree locally.

Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): I agree with all the points that my hon. Friend has made. Does he agree that planning is at the centre of some of the problems relating to the tensions between 315WH Renewable Energy Projects14 JULY 2010 Renewable Energy Projects 316WH

[Jonathan Reynolds] John Woodcock: I thank my hon. Friend for making that important point. local authorities and co-operative groups in respect of My hon. Friends have mentioned practical ideas as to renewable energy projects? One way to redress the balance how Government can help support such vital projects, is to encourage more local authorities to regard community potentially facilitating loans, and so on. Baywind is an ownership positively in terms of giving planning consent, example of a local community-owned project succeeding, allowing them to support such a co-operative movement which happens all too infrequently at the moment. I without crowding it out. hope that the Government will consider seriously their lack of co-ordination in a difficult and complicated John Woodcock: My hon. Friend is right. We need to field. explore that key area. I will say a little bit more about that later. Stella Creasy: Does my hon. Friend agree that we I am proud to be the first Labour/Co-operative Member could learn some interesting lessons from Denmark, of Parliament for Barrow and Furness; although by no and how it has used the tax system to encourage community means its first Labour Member, I am the first Co-op- ownership of renewable energy projects and incentives, sponsored MP. It is appropriate to mention that during and to encourage people to participate in and support this debate, because community ownership is the most them at local level? effective way for us to enable local communities to have a genuine stake in vital projects, the number of which John Woodcock: Absolutely. We all recognise that we need to increase. money is tight throughout the country. The Government do not hesitate to paint a far more drastic picture than If the Government’s commitment to the big society is the case, but we must find a way of breaking the becomes more than an idea that is yet to be defined—I deadlock. The importance of doing so is not simply to will not say “ill-defined” because that would be tackle climate change, fundamental though that is, but uncharitable—I hope that they will wholeheartedly embrace to ensure a greater level of energy security. Renewable this area and do more than just give words of support. energy projects can contribute not only to moving away from fossil fuels and the rising cost that will be tagged to Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): My such fuels in coming years, but to increasing energy hon. Friend has made some good points. When I was security for the UK. lucky enough to be a Minister, some excellent civil servants worked for me, but only a small handful of Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Stroud, which the them really had an understanding of and a grip on the Minister has already visited, is awash with good ideas co-operative and mutual movement. Could not the for renewable energy. I want to focus on micro-hydro Minister usefully direct some of the staff of energy schemes, because some obstacles must be removed, regulators, and more staff in his Department—other including possible objections by the Environment Agency. than those who have probably faced a steep learning We must discuss that, and I have mentioned it in the curve helping him prepare for this debate—to visit House. community energy mutuals, such as the Baywind Social enterprises are important to provide traction co-operative in the Lake district? for ideas, and plenty of information exists about them. Many people in Stroud know about them, and many John Woodcock: My hon. Friend is right. I need no people throughout the country should know about encouragement to agree with anyone who suggests a them. The previous Labour Government set out some visit to my constituency of Barrow and Furness, which interesting ideas about that and various mechanisms. A is always a fantastic idea, and particularly the Baywind key point— energy project, which prompted me to call for this debate. I am sure the Minister is aware that Baywind Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Gentleman’s has blazed a trail since the mid-1990s. The Baywind intervention is too long. wind turbines in my constituency, which are part of a co-operatively owned energy project, have changed people’s John Woodcock: The hon. Gentleman is right to understanding of renewable energy and of the capacity make that point, and to indicate the variety of renewable of a local area to have a genuine stake in that form of energy schemes that we must embrace. The issue is not energy. just about onshore wind or offshore wind. The potential for hydropower is enormous in the UK at both micro Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ level and a wider level. I was an adviser in the Department Co-op): My hon. Friend talks about the benefit that for Business, Innovation and Skills under the previous communities realise from community renewable projects. Government, which kicked off the study into the Severn I am sure that he is aware that there are good examples barrage, but that is a subject for another debate. I will of that in Scotland, for example, in Fintry and on the not take interventions on that, but it is crucial. island of Gigha. It has become clear that the lack of Community-owned schemes may make a difference available funding is a stumbling block for community because they engender a level of buy-in from the community. renewable developments. Is he aware of the studies Baywind has paid a dividend to local residents who being carried out by the Scottish Agricultural College have bought into the scheme since its inception in 1996. on a loan scheme for renewable energy projects, including As an educational establishment, it accepts regular visits community ones, which may help get over that initial from local schoolchildren and adults, and promotes the problem, to develop more community renewable energy cause of renewable energy. The key point for onshore projects throughout the country? wind is that community ownership of the turbines has 317WH Renewable Energy Projects14 JULY 2010 Renewable Energy Projects 318WH allowed the co-operative to avoid the controversy that Even under the current timetable, National Energy has often surrounded turbines in other areas of the Action estimates that there are close to 5.4 million Cumbrian hills in my patch. people in Britain—one in every five households—who are classed as fuel poor. Currently, we cannot say that Neil Carmichael: I will be brief, Mr Hood. This renewables are a cheap form of energy. However, the Government are paving the way for communities to previous Government’s proposals for micro-delivery and become involved in all sorts of renewables by returning for local areas to come together in co-operatives could business rates back to the community, and that is something drive down the cost and make renewables more cost- to embrace. Does the hon. Gentleman agree? effective. That was a key part of my party’s manifesto, and I hope the Minister will say that he will take up that John Woodcock: I made the point at the beginning proposal. that the scheme is interesting and welcome, and it is a In the context of rising fuel poverty and the need for contribution, but it does not go to the heart of the urgent action to reduce carbon emissions, the UK needs matter and that incentive will not tackle the problem. I a major improvement in domestic energy policy and the will come on to the barriers facing co-operatives such as way renewables are delivered. I recognise that that would Baywind and local communities that want to establish require a culture change and that it is not simply about their own energy supply. the Government, but I hope that in his response, the I turn to the planning system. Energy4All is a not-for- Minister will recognise the role of the Government in profit organisation to facilitate community-owned renewable empowering communities. At their best, communities energy schemes such as Baywind. It may cost communities can do better than any Government or state organisation £150,000 simply to be part of the planning process, and by taking direct control of the means through which at the moment they cannot be confident of success in they power their homes and making a direct contribution navigating through that process. The coalition programme to lowering carbon emissions. In their own way—and for government states explicitly that the Government this is what we all individually want to do—communities “will encourage community-owned renewable energy schemes can tackle one of the greatest challenges that we will where local people benefit from the power produced.” face over the coming years and decades, both for our That is in addition to the pledge on business rates. country and for the world. As my hon. Friends said, local authorities should encourage community ownership, but at the moment 5.1 pm we just ask them nicely to do so. Will the Minister The Minister of State, Department of Energy and consider ways of giving genuine preference in the planning Climate Change (Gregory Barker): I shall start by system to community-owned projects? There must be congratulating the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness safeguards, but community-owned schemes already show (John Woodcock) on an excellent speech. Although he local buy-in, and we could greatly slim down the cost of is a new Member, I know that he is not new to Westminster the planning process by streamlining it to recognise that and the processes of government. He brought the the ownership model has already achieved a level of experiences that he has gained working behind the community buy-in. scenes to the fore with great aplomb, and I found his The Co-operative party has called for creation of a contribution helpful and useful. community energy and climate change unit, based on It is encouraging to see that several new Members are the successful Supporters Direct model, which promotes present, even if they have participated only by way of mutual ownership of football clubs. The core functions interventions. I hope that the positive dialogue engendered of the unit would be to bring together silo working in in Westminster Hall debates can continue. We do not government. We are all guilty of that when in government; claim to have the monopoly on wisdom; this is a new it is not a new phenomenon of the new Government. agenda. I am a new Minister and I am sure only that we The unit would be able to give advice on legal structures, need to be ambitious and radical, and that pottering financial assistance, business planning and the regulatory along under the status quo is not an option. Together framework, but it would not be prescriptive. There are with my officials, I am looking at a range of options. If many ways to skin a cat, and I hope that the Minister other hon. Members, regardless of whether they are will recognise that there is a cat to be skinned, and will part of the coalition Government or in opposition, come up with some suggestions for his preferred method come forward with positive contributions—particularly of doing so. examples of successes in their own constituencies, such One way of making start-up costs easier for community as Baywind—we should look at those contributions. projects—the model has been identified by Energy4All—is I am pleased to tell the hon. Gentleman that my to encourage residents not necessarily to go for full officials will shortly be meeting with Energy4All to ownership of a project, but to take a part-stake in discuss some ideas. Those ideas will incorporate five commercial developers’ wind farms. In that system, the different ownership models: the community co-operative developer identifies the project and takes the risk, and model, which enables 100% ownership of an entire the community simply buys a stake. The developer project; the shared ownership model, where a co-operative gains from improved community relations, and the owns one or more of the turbines on a wind farm, with community gains a direct stake in a project in its locality. the remainder being owned by a landowner, private However, there is currently little or no take-up of that developer or a community trust; the royalty instrument opportunity, so we should all consider ways—I am model, which is where a developer builds a wind farm in interested in the Minister’s views on this—of giving a region and the community purchases a stake in the developers a push and changing the culture of communities future revenue of the project through a co-operative; and commercial developers. Planning incentives may the regional co-operative model, where finance is help, as long as there are proper safeguards. raised through a national or regional energy co-operative 319WH Renewable Energy Projects14 JULY 2010 Renewable Energy Projects 320WH

[Gregory Barker] Stella Creasy: I appreciate what the Minister is saying. Does he share my sadness at the decision to cancel covering a wide geographic area and a range of different the wind turbine as part of the Olympics park in the projects; and the loan model, where the community borough of Waltham Forest? That could have been the project may approach an existing energy co-operative legacy of a local renewable energy co-operative in Waltham and get a simple loan to get a new project off the Forest. Will he commit to working with me to look at ground. Those are some of the innovative ideas that are alternatives such as biomass and photovoltaic cells, and springing up, and we need more of them. see whether they could be the start of such a co-operative I have taken a personal interest in the decentralised project in Waltham Forest? energy agenda since 2005 when I first started shadowing the environment brief. It became clear that there were Gregory Barker: I am not familiar with that project many advantages to decentralised energy, not only in or with the reasons behind the cancellation of the wind the way that it can contribute to the decarbonising of turbine. However, I would be happy to work with the our energy supply, but also in the security of our hon. Lady to try and encourage the uptake of other domestic energy supply and the sense of ownership and renewable energy sources. That is absolutely key, and we empowerment that it can bring to local communities want the Olympics to be the greenest Olympics ever, just and consumers. Politically, there is a huge power in the as we want the Government to be the greenest Government broadest sense of the word—pardon the pun—in that ever. agenda. It is one of the few things on the energy agenda Community ownership is a key part of our localism that engages local people in a way that they can understand agenda. In the common themes and principles that bind and in which they can participate. the coalition together, localism, concern for the environment When the hon. Gentleman introduced this debate, he and action on climate change are three of the most was right to say that there were problems and that, powerful issues that link us together and drive our historically, there has been resistance to renewable energy agenda. We are determined to create the right framework projects in all of our constituencies. Some of that for building a low-carbon economy. We realise that we resistance was well based, but often it was based on need to make game-changing interventions to increase misconceptions. It is difficult to blame local communities energy efficiency in local communities. That is why at for resisting renewable energy because often they are the heart of the energy Bill that I hope to introduce in asked to have something imposed on them that spoils the autumn sits the green deal, which will transform their view or the amenity of the local land, and brings homes in all our constituencies. If we are to save consumers them no benefit whatsoever. If we are to see an increase money on their energy bills but also make their homes in the number of such installations, we need a more more efficient and reach our carbon reduction goals, we equitable settlement. We need a greater sense of community will need game-changing policies such as the green deal, participation both in decisions about where the installations but we also need a game change in our culture and our are to be sited, and in the returns that flow from them. approach to community ownership. There are potentially remunerative streams of profit to We are already working on measures to ensure that be gained under those arrangements, and it is right for communities can benefit from renewable energy, taking the communities that host renewable energy sources to advantage of incentives provided by feed-in tariffs, but benefit in that way. we will go further and encourage more community Our coalition programme is clear. We plan to help ownership of renewable energy. The hon. Member for communities become more self-sufficient in the way Barrow and Furness made excellent points about the that they use heat and power. The programme also fact that where there is community ownership of energy makes clear our plans to encourage more community installations, many of the objections in the planning ownership of renewable energy. Vision, localism and system will simply fall away. I cannot comment directly, decentralised energy all empower communities. but I do hear the points that he makes about the need We have a range of technologies. We have spoken for that to be recognised in the planning system itself. about wind, particularly onshore wind, but a host of There is a virtuous circle here. Part of the reason why other exciting technologies such as micro-hydro power there are so many delays to many local projects is that are available, and we should do more to advance them. there are so many local objections. If there are fewer There is also biomass, solar power and combined heat local objections, there will be fewer delays. In an ideal and power. Ultimately, I would like to see the notion of world, we would not have to tinker greatly with the local energy economies widely accepted. People have planning system, because it would be self-fulfilling, but got used to the notion of a local food economy. We have we are examining ways in which we can work with the seen local farmers markets spring up, and links between planning system to give communities more power to local schools and community projects, and local food shape the places that they inhabit. producers, farmers and retailers. We must do more to The coalition agreement made clear our intention to encourage the notion of local energy economies, where publish and present to Parliament a simple and consolidated people see a closer link between the energy that local national planning framework covering all forms of communities consume, and the way it is produced. development. That should include local community-owned In my constituency, I have encouraged a greater link installations. My Department is working with the between farmers who have woodland that is not in Department for Communities and Local Government productive use, and a local school that is putting in a on extending permitted development rights for both woodchip CHP boiler. A local farmer will bring woodland domestic and non-domestic microgeneration technologies. back into productive use so as to supply that boiler on a We are also developing a website, called community long-term contract. Coppicing is better for biodiversity energy online, to develop best practice and to support and flora and fauna. local authorities and community groups in developing 321WH Renewable Energy Projects14 JULY 2010 Renewable Energy Projects 322WH their own renewable energy. Often, the greatest spur to buildings. We are also keen for local authorities to work that is not just what we can do at Westminster, but clear with other partners on community-scale renewable examples of action being taken in the community, out electricity schemes that can be supported by FITs. there in the real world. The more that we can spread At this stage of renewable development, I am not as that best practice and knowledge, the better. worried as the hon. Gentleman about crowding out I have a few more points, which I shall run through different initiatives, because we are at such an early quickly in the time remaining. First, I shall say a few stage. One of the mechanisms that we see as key to words about overturning the ban on local authorities encouraging local community schemes is the retention selling electricity. It was nonsense that the Local of business rates. As the coalition programme for Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, government made clear, we will allow communities that introduced by a Labour Government, prevented councils host renewable energy projects to keep the additional from selling electricity from local wind turbines—not business rates that they generate. We are working up that there were many in those days—or from any form plans to make that a reality. of local generation or, indeed, from anaerobic digestion, Overall, the hon. Gentleman has made a very good which we are also keen to promote in the coalition start with this debate. We welcome his input and I look agreement. I hope that by the end of the year, local forward to continuing the discussion with him. authorities will be able to sell electricity from renewables, generating revenue to help local services and keep council Question put and agreed to. tax down. That will see local communities truly benefiting from the low-carbon transition. It will allow local authorities to take full advantage of the incentives available through 5.14 pm feed-in tariffs to invest in renewable energy in their own Sitting adjourned.

27WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Written Ministerial Affairs I congratulate UK Trade & Investment on the role it has played in significantly assisting a record Statements number of FDI projects, nearly half of the total locating in the UK in the year to 31 March 2010. I am arranging for a copy of the UK Inward Investment Wednesday 14 July 2010 2009-10 Report by UK Trade & Investment to be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT UK Inward Investment Park Homes Reforms The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): With my right hon. Friend, the The Minister for Housing (Grant Shapps): The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Government value the role the park home sector plays Affairs, I am pleased to announce that UK Trade & in the housing market offering an affordable alternative Investment today launched the UK Inward Investment to mainstream housing for many people, often over the 2009-10 Report, giving the national figures for inward age of 50, in mainly rural, semi-rural and seaside locations. investment over the last financial year. Although many residents appreciate and value the sense The UK’s ability to attract and retain inward investment of community that park home living engenders, I am is at the heart of the Government’s economic recovery aware that many also experience difficulties in exercising plans. These figures demonstrate how important investment their rights and achieving their aspirations. Furthermore, is in stimulating growth and creating jobs. a minority of site owners continue to cause significant Competition for this investment is intense, which is problems to residents and the local community in which why the Government are committed to being open for they operate. business, and providing the best environment for investors, I am, therefore, today announcing that the Government whether businesses are established here, expanding here, intend, subject to parliamentary consent, to transfer or locating here for the first time. most of the functions of county courts under the Mobile We are committed to cutting the deficit, reducing Homes Act 1983 to residential property tribunals. The corporation tax, delivering flexible employment and aim of the transfer of the jurisdiction is to provide workplace legislation and building the strongest R and residents of park homes and their site owners with a D base in Europe. level playing field in the resolution of disputes, by We must make sure that the world’s best companies providing access to a dedicated, low-cost specialist (housing) thrive here, linking up with the UK’s talent, creativity, tribunal, which can deal with cases quickly and effectively, innovation and know-how. without the parties needing to be legally represented. This will mean that park home residents will be able to In a year when inward investment fell across Europe, take action to resolve disputes with site owners, without the UK recorded a strong performance, attracting foreign being restricted by the prospect of facing large legal investment from a record 54 countries, between 1 April costs. 2009 and 31 March 2010. I propose to lay before Parliament the necessary The estimated number of jobs created or safeguarded secondary legislation to effect the transfer as soon as by inward investment rose to more than 94,000, a 20% possible after summer recess, with a view to transferring increase on the previous year. There were 1,619 direct jurisdiction to the residential property tribunals by the investments in the UK by foreign-owned companies end of the year. during the year. I am also announcing my intention to work closely Inward investment is a long-term decision for any with interested resident and industry partners in developing company wanting to grow internationally. More investors potential measures for empowering residents to exercise are seeking to locate in the UK than anywhere else in more control over the management of sites, where there Europe, helping to underpin the UK’s long-term economic are management failings by site owners which significantly prospects. impact upon the well-being of the local communities. In line with reduced global market liquidity, the number of acquisitions, joint ventures and mergers taking place fell 51% from 457 in 2008-09 to 225 in DEFENCE 2009-10. But the number of new projects and the number of expansions have both increased, by 3% and 18% respectively. Afghanistan Troop Levels Companies investing in the UK will do so with confidence. The UK’s economy is stable and resilient The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): and this Government are taking action to secure the The next roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan is due recovery and future growth. The UK has positioned to take place in October 2010. Headquarters, 6 (UK) itself as a springboard for companies seeking to grow Division will remain as Headquarters, Regional Command internationally, both in and from a UK base. (South) until November 2010 but the UK’s current lead UK Trade & Investment is the Government Department formation in Helmand, 4th Mechanized Brigade, will leading support for such companies in the international be replaced by 16 Air Assault Brigade. The forces business environment. With my right hon. Friend the deploying include: 29WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

Headquarters, 6 (UK) Division, who will hand over command Elements of Special Investigations Branch Germany of Regional Command (South) to 10 (US) Mountain Division Elements of the Military Provost Staff and Military Provost Staff on 1 November 2010 (Volunteers) 16 Air Assault Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (216) Elements of 1 Military Working Dogs Regiment Elements of 1 Mechanized Brigade Headquarters and Signal Elements of 1 Military Intelligence Brigade Squadron (215) Elements of the Military Stabilisation Support Group (MSSG) Headquarters, 102 Logistic Brigade Elements of The Honourable Artillery Company Headquarters, 104 Logistic Brigade Elements of 100 Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of 845 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 101 Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of 846 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 103 Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of 847 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 104 Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of 857 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 105 Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of the Royal Naval Regulators Elements of 106 Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of 7th Parachute Regiment Royal Horse Artillery Elements of 101 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) Elements of 3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (Volunteers) Elements of The Household Cavalry Regiment Elements of 7th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland Elements of 2nd Royal Tank Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 2nd Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 4th Battalion The Parachute Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of The London Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of The Welsh Transport Regiment, The Royal Logistic Elements of 47th Regiment Royal Artillery Corps (Volunteers) 23 Engineer Regiment (Air Assault) Elements of 88 Postal and Courier Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 22 Engineer Regiment Elements of 162 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment Elements of 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 36 Engineer Regiment Elements of 166 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Elements of 39 Engineer Regiment (Air Support) Corps Elements of 42 Engineer Regiment (Geographic) Elements of 168 Pioneer Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Group Corps Elements of 2 Signal Regiment Elements of 148 Expeditionary Force Institute Squadron Elements of 3rd Division Headquarters and Signal Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 10th Signal Regiment Elements of 395 Air Despatch Troop (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 14th Signals Regiment (Electronic Warfare) Elements of 101 Force Support Battalion, Royal Electrical and Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) Mechanical Engineers 1st Battalion Irish Guards Elements of 103 Battalion (Volunteers), Royal Electrical and 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, The Royal Highland Mechanical Engineers Fusiliers 207 Field Hospital (Volunteers), Royal Army Medical Corps 5th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, The Argyll and 212 Field Hospital (Volunteers), Royal Army Medical Corps Sutherland Highlanders Elements of the Joint Medical Command 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment Number 2 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment Number 7 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters 1st Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment Elements of Number 2 Royal Air Force Police Wing Elements of 1 Regiment, Army Air Corps Elements of Number 3 Royal Air Force Police Wing Elements of 3 Regiment, Army Air Corps 15 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 4 Regiment, Army Air Corps 34 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 9 Regiment, Army Air Corps Elements of 51 Squadron Royal Air Force Elements of 9 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 101 Squadron Royal Air Force Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, The Royal Elements of 39 Squadron Royal Air Force Logistic Corps 12 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 13 Air Assault Support Regiment, The Royal Logistic 14 Squadron, Royal Air Force Corps Elements of 5 (Army Co-operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 23 Pioneer Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 18 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 24 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 27 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 29 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment, The Royal Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force Logistic Corps Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force 16 Air Assault Medical Regiment, Royal Army Medical Corps Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force 7 Air Assault Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Elements of the Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air Force Elements of 104 Force Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force Mechanical Engineers Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force Elements of 6 Close Support Battalion, Royal Electrical and Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force Mechanical Engineers Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, Royal Air Force 156 Provost Company Royal Military Police Elements of 5001 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements 158 Provost Company Royal Military Police Elements of 3 Mobile Catering Squadron 31WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS

The granting of such rights to the EU will not affect Elements of Tactical Medical Wing the UK’s position as a member of the UNGA or the Elements of 1 (Expeditionary Logistics) Squadron UN Security Council. Furthermore, this does not change Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron the existing balance of competence between the EU and Elements of Tactical Imagery Wing member states. Volunteer and regular members of the reserve forces The Foreign Secretary has also made clear through will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part of this the UK Permanent Representative in New York that integrated force package, and we expect to issue around the UK’s support for the proposed UNGA resolution is 770 call-out notices to fill some 600 posts. On completion (i) strictly limited and does not imply agreement to seek of their mobilisation procedures, the reservists will undertake additional rights in any other fora; and (ii) does not a period of training and, where applicable, integration prejudge whether the EU should actually exercise those with their respective receiving units. The majority will rights on any particular issue. serve on operations for around six months. As part of Discussions are ongoing with the wider membership this commitment, we expect up to 16 members of the of the UNGA about granting the EU additional rights sponsored reserves to be in theatre at any one time. of participation. The intention is to table a resolution in The deployment of 16 Air Assault Brigade and the UN General Assembly in the coming weeks. accompanying units will not result in any change to the UK’s established and enduring conventional force level of 9,500 personnel. HEALTH I shall make a further statement on the units we expect to serve under 16 Air Assault Brigade’s planned replacement formation, 3 Commando Brigade, nearer Health Select Committee Report on Social Care the time of their deployment.

The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE I have today laid before Parliament the Government’s response to the Health Select Committee’s report on EU Observer Rights (UN General Assembly) social care (Cm7884). We know that urgent reform of the social care system The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The is needed and we are grateful to the Health Select Lisbon treaty established new structures for the management Committee for its report on social care. This is an of the EU’s external relations. These are the High important contribution to the debate on how to deliver Representative, the European External Action Service a care and support system which provides much more and the rebranding and amalgamation of Commission control to individuals and their carers, reduces the and Council Secretariat offices overseas as EU delegations. insecurity they and their families face and ensures that It is in the UK’s interest that, where we have agreed a people are treated with dignity and respect. position with our EU partners, the EU makes its voice We have made clear our commitment and determination heard—complementing and supplementing our role. to move on from more than a decade of indecision on A further element of the external representation question how to fund social care, and to reach a fair and enduring is the ability of the EU to participate in international settlement for the system for generations to come. We organisations. In some cases, such as the United Nations want a sustainable adult social care system that gives General Assembly (UNGA), the EU has the status of people the support and freedom to lead the life they an observer with limited rights of participation. This chose, with dignity. means that the EU is not able to represent the EU and The coalition agreement sets out our commitment to: the member states, where we have an agreed position, to “establish a commission on long-term care, to report within a the same extent as was possible for the rotating presidency, year. The commission will consider a range of ideas, including which, of course, was a full member of the UNGA. both a voluntary insurance scheme to protect the assets of those Following the entry into force of the treaty of Lisbon who go into residential care, and a partnership scheme as proposed the role previously played by the rotating presidency in by Derek Wanless”. representing the EU externally has passed to the High We recognise that how we should fund care and Representative and the EU delegations who act under support is a key question for society to face—and one her authority. So, in order for the EU to fill effectively that will inevitably involve difficult choices and difficult the role previously played by the rotating presidency in trade-offs. But it is a question we can no longer avoid. the UN General Assembly, the Foreign Secretary has We are grateful to the Health Select Committee for its agreed that, together with our EU partners, we should interest in this area and will be recommending that the table an UNGA resolution which, if approved by the soon to be established Commission on the Funding of wider UN membership, would grant the EU certain Care and Support consider its report, alongside other additional rights as an observer delegation. These rights contributions to the debate. are, as the proposal stands, the right to speak in a timely We will also take decisive steps to accelerate the pace manner, the right of reply, the right to circulate documents, of reform so that older people and disabled people get the right to make proposals and submit amendments, the care they need and have more choice and control the right to raise points of order, and more seats for the over how their needs are met. Transformation of services High Representative and her officials. As is currently should be a key part of how local authorities continue the case, the EU will not have the right to vote, it will to deliver services effectively and efficiently during a not be a full member of the UNGA, nor will it be seated period of fiscal consolidation. As we take critical steps among the UN member states. to reduce the deficit, the right response is for the pace of 33WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS transformation to increase—maximising the performance We will bring together the conclusions of the Law and penetration of services such as re-ablement, Commission and the Commission on the Funding of intermediate care and telecare. Care and Support, with our vision, into a White Paper Later this year, we will publish a vision for adult in 2011, with legislation following to establish a sustainable social care, including the key next steps on personalisation. legal and financial framework for adult social care in this Parliament. In addition, as a key component of a lasting settlement for the social care system, we will reform the law As a coalition Government, established with the aim underpinning adult social care by creating a single of working together in the national interest, we have an modern statute, helping disabled people, older people unprecedented political opportunity to deliver reform. and carers to understand whether services can or should Care and support is a good example of where we need be provided. We will be working with the Law Commission pragmatic, sustainable proposals to build a new and as they consider their proposals on this work. lasting settlement. 9P Petitions14 JULY 2010 Petitions 10P

Life policyholders, through an independent payment Petition scheme, for their relative loss as a consequence of regulatory failure. The Government will, as the Ombudsman noted Wednesday 14 July 2010 it was appropriate to do, consider the potential impact on the public purse of any scheme. OBSERVATIONS As a sign of the commitment to that pledge, the Government will introduce a Bill in the first session of Parliament that will enable HM Treasury to make payments. TREASURY One of the Government’s main aims is to ensure that Equitable Life (Portsmouth North) the approach to resolving this issue is thorough, transparent The Petition of residents of the constituency of Portsmouth and fair while keeping in mind the need to act quickly. North in the Hampshire region of the U.K. regarding the In the light of this, the Government feel that the best Government’s response to the Parliamentary Ombudsman’s approach is to allow Sir John Chadwick to continue reports on Equitable Life, under his current Terms of Reference. Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent Sir John has been working for a considerable amount or support members, former members or personal of time under his current Terms of Reference and is representatives of deceased members of the Equitable close to the completion of his work. He is due to submit Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration his final report by mid-July. Allowing him to complete leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary his work in its current form will allow the Government Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered to focus on the next steps in the process; in particular by the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July delivering on the Government’s pledge of an independently 2008 and bearing reference number HC 815; and further designed payment scheme. Reopening Sir John’s work declares that the Petitioners or those whom they represent at this stage would lead to severe delays in making or support have suffered regulatory failure on the part payments to policyholders. That scenario would not be of the public bodies responsible from the year 1992 beneficial for anybody. onwards, but have not received compensation for the resulting losses and outrage. One of the key elements of the Ombudsman’s recommendations was that any scheme should be The Petitioners therefore request that the House independent of Government. In the light of this, the of Commons urges the Government to uphold the Government plan to establish an Independent Commission constitutional standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman to decide on the allocation of payments and scheme by complying in full with the findings and recommendations design issues. of her Report upon Equitable Life. Sir John’s work, which is based on the findings of the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Penny Ombudsman, is one of the building blocks, not the Mordaunt, Official Report, 9 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 434.] foundation of the Government’s approach. [P000833] For almost a decade, policyholders have fought for a Observations from the Chancellor of the Exchequer: just resolution in relation to losses suffered as a result of The Government have pledged to implement the regulatory failure. The Government are confident that a Parliamentary and Health Ombudsman’s recommendation resolution can be reached using the approach that we to make fair and transparent payments to Equitable have outlined.

713W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 714W Written Answers to Departmental Security Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Northern Ireland how much (a) his Department and (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on security in each year since 1997. [7381] Wednesday 14 July 2010 Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for policing and justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable NORTHERN IRELAND figures for the Department as it is now configured are not available. Departmental Electronic Equipment Since 12 April the Department has spent £35,205 on security. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental Northern Ireland how much (a) his Department and public body which has incurred a cost of £221 since (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies 12 April. spent on televisions in each year since 1997. [7513] Departmental Stationery Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for Policing and Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable Northern Ireland how much (a) his Department and figures for the Department as it is now configured are (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies not available. spent on stationery in each year since 1997. [7470] Since 12 April the Department has spent £295 on televisions. Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for Policing and The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental Justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable public body which has incurred no cost since 12 April. figures for the Department as it is now configured are not available. Departmental ICT Since 12 April the Department has spent £1,970 on stationery. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental Northern Ireland how much (a) his Department and public body which has incurred a cost of £903 since (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies 12 April. spent on information and communication technology in each year since 1997. [7344] Departmental Training

Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for policing and Northern Ireland how much (a) his Department and justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies figures for the Department as it is now configured are spent on employee awaydays in each year since 1997. not available. [7325] Since 12 April the Department has not incurred any costs on information and communication technology. Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for policing and public body which has incurred a cost of £2,227 since justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable 12 April. figures for the Department as it is now configured are not available. Departmental Marketing Since 12 April the Department has incurred no expenditure on employee awaydays. The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for public body which has incurred no cost on awaydays Northern Ireland how much his (a) Department and since 12 April (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on logo design in each year since 1997. [7489] Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much his (a) Department and Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for Policing and spent on employee training since 1997. [7655] Justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable figures for the Department as it is now configured are Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland not available. Office transferred responsibility for Policing and Justice Since 12 April the Department and its non-departmental to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable figures public body have incurred no expenditure in this area. for the Department as it is now configured are not The NIO has no agencies. available. 715W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 716W

Since 12 April the Department has spent £1,173 on Justine Greening: The information sought is set out training. as follows. The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental public body which has incurred a cost of £3,205 since Department Minister Direction Category 12 April. 2008 BERR Right hon. Launch VFM (now BIS) John Hutton Investment Departmental Travel MP 2008 MOD Right hon. Remploy VFM Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Des Browne Procurement Northern Ireland how much his (a) Department and MP (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies 2008 HMT Right hon. Landsbanki VFM has spent on travel for employees in each year since Alistair 1997. [7432] Darling MP 2009 BERR Lord Icelandic VFM Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland (now BIS) Mandelson Water Office (NIO) transferred responsibility for policing and Trawlermen justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable Scheme figures for the Department as it is now configured are 2009 BERR Lord Advantage VFM not available. (now BIS) Mandelson West Since 12 April the Department has spent £125,319 on Midlands Loan travel. 2009 MOD Right hon. Repatriation Propriety The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental Bob Flights for public body which has incurred a cost of £2,457 since Ainsworth UK Hostages 12 April. MP in Iraq 2009 MOD Right hon. Repatriation Propriety Departmental Utilities Bob Flights for Ainsworth UK Hostages MP in Iraq Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much (a) his Department and 2009 DEFRA Right hon. Dairy VFM (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies Hilary Benn Farmers of spent on (i) electricity, (ii) water, (iii) heating and MP Britain (iv) telephone services in each year since 1997. [7595] 2009 BERR Lord Leeds Arena VFM (now BIS) Mandelson Project Mr Paterson: On 12 April 2010 the Northern Ireland 2009 BERR Lord Car VFM Office transferred responsibility for Policing and Justice (now BIS) Mandelson Scrappage to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Comparable figures Scheme for the Department as it is now configured are not 2009 BERR Lord Car VFM available. (now BIS) Mandelson Scrappage Since 12 April the Department has incurred the following Scheme costs in the requested areas: Date Department Minister Direction Category (i) electricity £35,889; 2009 HMT Right hon. Asset Propriety (ii) water £1,768; Alistair Protection (iii) heating £18,299; Darling MP Scheme (iv) telephone services £115,066. 2010 DCLG Right hon. Proposals for VFM The NIO has no agencies. It has one non-departmental John new unitary Denham MP local public body which has incurred the following costs Government since 12 April: structures for (i) electricity £70; Devon, Norfolk and (ii) water £830; Suffolk (iii) heating £352; 2010 MOJ Right hon. Pleural Regularity (iv) telephone services £2,311. Jack Straw Plaques and MP VFM 2010 MOD Right hon. Basra VFM Bob memorial TREASURY Ainsworth wall MP dedication ceremony Departmental Accountancy 2010 BIS Lord North West VFM Mandelson Development Derek Twigg: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Agency’s in respect of which public expenditure projects his funding for Department was notified that letters of Ministerial Blackpool Leisure direction had been issued to departmental permanent Assets secretaries in each of the last three years. [8050] 717W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 718W

Mr Hoban [holding answer 22 June 2010]: Both the Department Minister Direction Category Financial Services Authority (FSA) and the Financial 2010 DCLG Right hon. North West VFM Ombudsman Service (FOS) are operationally independent John Development of Government. Denham MP Agency’s funding for Financial Services Authority does not investigate Blackpool complaints about firms from individual consumers, that Leisure is role of the Financial Ombudsman Service. Assets Every six months, the FOS publishes data on individual financial businesses where it has received at least 30 new Departmental NDPBs cases and resolved at least 30 cases relating to the business during the period. The FOS does not comment Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer separately on the overall performance of individual what the address is of the head office of each non- businesses. departmental public body for which his Department is responsible. [5718] Public Expenditure Justine Greening: Out of Treasury’s arm’s-length bodies, the Royal Mint Advisory Committee is a non-departmental public body. Its contact address Llantrisant, Pontyclun, Dr Pugh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer CF72 8YT. what the full-year effect is of reductions in the revenue expenditure of each department announced by his Department. [7676] Finance Bill 2010-11

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Danny Alexander: The reductions to Resource Exchequer with reference to the contribution of the Departmental Expenditure Limits (RDEL) for 2010-11 Chief Secretary to the Treasury of 6 July 2010, Official from the £6.2 billion of cuts announced on 24 May are Report, column 205, on the Finance Bill, what the set out in table 3.7 of the recent Public Expenditure statistical source was of the forecast in respect of further Statistical Analysis 2010: convergence. [7825] Department RDEL Reduction (£ million)

Danny Alexander: Convergence is a mathematical Education 671 property of the Barnett formula exhibited under certain Transport 290 conditions, particularly when departmental spending is Communities and Local 455 growing. Table 2.3 in the Budget sets out falling implied Government DEL totals over the course of the SR period. Local Government 325 Business, Innovation and Skills 295 Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands Home Office 323 Justice 142 Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Law Officers’ Departments 17 what estimate he has made of the number of people Foreign and Commonwealth 50 not liable to pay tax at the 50 pence higher rate subject Office to marginal deduction rates of over (a) 60, (b) 70, (c) Energy and Climate Change 14 80 and (d) 90 per cent. in (i) (A) 2011 and (B) 2012-13 Environment, Food and Rural 97 under the proposals in the June 2010 budget and (ii) (1) Affairs 2011-12 and (2) 2012-13 under the proposals in the Culture, Media and Sport 49 March 2010 budget. [7822] Work and Pensions 493 Chancellor’s Departments 101 Mr Gauke: Annex A of the June 2010 Budget provides Cabinet Office 73 estimates of the numbers of families subject to marginal deduction rates (MDR) of over 60, 70, 80, 90% in In addition the Devolved Administrations will have 2010-11 and 2011-12 under proposals in the March the option of making savings this year or deferring their 2010 and June 2010 Budgets. The footnote to this table share of the savings, which total £699 million (capital states that rates are estimated for families in receipt of and resource), until the next financial year. income-related benefits or tax credits, and hence those facing a 50% income tax rate are not included. Consistent The announcements on 17 June on project reapprovals, with previous Budgets, MDR estimates have set out for and on 5 July on unfunded spending commitments, will the forthcoming tax year only. not reduce 2010-11 RDEL.

Insurance: Construction Public Finance Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many complaints the (a) Financial Services Authority Dr Pugh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (b) Financial Ombudsman Service has received on what the full-year effect on departmental revenue budgets the Federation of Master Builders Masterbond warranty is of changes to departments’ capital programmes proposed scheme in each of the last 10 years. [3865] by his Department. [7678] 719W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 720W

Danny Alexander: The reductions to Capital Danny Alexander: All PFI companies are contractually Departmental Expenditure Limits (CDEL) for 2010-11 committed to deliver their service subject to the UK tax from the £6.2 billion of cuts announced on 24 May are regime. set out in table 3.8 of the recent Public Expenditure Government’s policy in this area is set out in annex 4.4 Statistical Analysis 2010: of Managing Public Money which may be found in the public spending and reporting section of the Treasury Department CDEL Reduction (£ million) website. Education 0 Transport 399 VAT Communities and Local 166 Government Andrew George: To ask the Chancellor of the Local Government 79 Exchequer if he will (a) commission research on and Business, Innovation and Skills 343 (b) make an estimate of the (i) effect on the economy Home Office 35 and (ii) likely level of Exchequer receipts consequent Justice 182 on the setting of a higher rate of value added tax for Law Officers’ Departments 1 luxury goods. [7060] Foreign and Commonwealth 5 Office Mr Gauke: Since the late 1970s European VAT law Energy and Climate Change 70 setting out the principles according to which VAT is to Environment, Food and Rural 64 Affairs be applied does not provide for a higher rate of VAT. Culture, Media and Sport 22 In 1977 the 6th VAT directive on VAT was signed. Its Work and Pensions 52 purpose was to harmonise the principles on which the Chancellor’s Departments 30 tax was to be applied throughout the then EEC. The Cabinet Office 6 directive limited the number of rates to a single standard rate with up to two reduced rates on a specified list of In addition the Devolved Administrations will have supplies. This prohibits the UK having a higher rate of the option of making savings this year or deferring their VAT on specific items. There were derogations, including share of the savings, which total £699 million (capital our zero rates. and resource), until the next financial year. The announcements on 17 June on project reapprovals, and on 5 July on unfunded spending commitments, will not reduce 2010-11 CDEL. TRANSPORT

Bus Services: Concessions Taxation: Aviation Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mr MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of expenditure on the national (1) if he will take steps to ensure that air tax exemptions concessionary bus fares scheme in each of the next five for the Highlands and Islands are maintained in years. [6896] implementing his proposals to replace air passenger duty with a per-plane tax; [6295] Norman Baker: The following forecast is for expenditure (2) what consultation his Department plans to undertake by travel concession authorities on concessionary travel in the Highlands and Islands on his proposals to replace for older and disabled people. This includes spend on air passenger duty with a per-plane tax; [6296] discretionary concessions offered by local authorities, (3) whether he plans to review the military exemptions as well as spend on the statutory national scheme. The from air passenger duty; [6297] forecast assumes eligible age for the scheme rises in line (4) whether his proposals for a per-plane tax will with the rising female pension age, as has already been apply to cargo flights operating within the Highlands committed. and Islands region. [6298] As part of a package of reforms, it was announced in the pre-Budget report that savings in how the scheme Justine Greening: The budget announced that the operates could be explored—in particular whether savings Government will explore changes to the aviation tax could be made through a more efficient method by system, including switching from a per-passenger to a which travel concession authorities reimburse bus operators. per-plane duty, which could encourage fuller planes. This work is now being taken forward as part of the Major changes will be subject to consultation. spending review. These potential savings have therefore not been included in the forecast.

Taxation: PFI £ million 2010-11 1,080 Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2011-12 1,089 if he will assess the merits of bringing forward proposals 2012-13 1,108 to change the rules on private finance initiatives (PFI) 2013-14 1,132 to require all PFI contractors to pay full tax in the UK. 2014-15 1,157 [8136] 721W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 722W

Crossrail Driving: Safety

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the expected date is for completion of the Crossrail what recent steps his Department has taken to reduce spur to (a) Maidenhead and (b) Abbey Wood; and the number of people who drive (a) while using a when the current proposed Crossrail network will be mobile telephone, (b) without wearing a seat belt, (c) completed. [6577] while disqualified and (d) without insurance; and if he will make a statement. [5440] Mrs Villiers: The planned date for commencement of Crossrail operations remains 2017 with current plans Mike Penning: The Department for Transport monitors for all Crossrail works on the committed scheme due for the number of drivers who are convicted each year of completion by 2017. these offences and works with the police and other Government Departments on the most effective Crossrail Line: Kent enforcement of road traffic law. If the evidence suggests it is necessary, the Department will consider taking additional measures to achieve complaint driver behaviour. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the planned timetable is for the completion of First Capital Connect work on the Crossrail Abbey Wood spur. [4050] Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mrs Villiers: The precise construction phasing for what recent assessment he has made of the performance aspects of the Crossrail project, including the Abbey of First Capital Connect in meeting its (a) rail franchise Wood spur, is yet to be finalised. The planned date for obligations and (b) targets; and if he will make a commencement of Crossrail operations is 2017. statement. [7094]

Cycling: Safety Mrs Villiers: Under its franchise agreement, First Capital Connect is required to report its delivery against Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport its operational franchise obligations and performance what the budget was of Cycle England in each of the targets at the end of each rail industry period, the latest last five years; and how much of that budget was spent period being 30 May to 26 June 2010. This performance on encouraging cyclists to wear cycle helmets. [7771] is then assessed by officials in the Department for Transport and action taken as required. Norman Baker [holding answer 12 July 2010]: Cycling First Capital Connect are currently meeting their England was created in March 2005 with an annual operational performance target in the franchise agreement. budget of £5 million (2005-06). That was subsequently Their public performance measure in the latest period increased to £10 million for 2006-07 and in 2007-08 the was 90.4%. budget was further increased to £20 million, rising to £60 million in 2009-10. For 2010-11 the budget was Government Car and Despatch Agency reduced from £60 million to £58 million by the last Administration. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport There is no specific Cycling England programme to how many cars the Government Car and Despatch encourage cycle helmet wearing. However a number of Agency has sold since 6 May 2010. [8270] programmes funded by Cycling England give advice on cycle helmet wearing, such as Bikeability training. Mike Penning: The Government Car and Despatch Agency has sold 14 cars since 6 May 2010. Cycling: Schools Railways

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for whether he plans to increase provision of cycling Transport what evaluation of proposed improvements training in schools. [4983] to the rail strategic network he plans to undertake prior to the Comprehensive Spending Review. [7832] Norman Baker: The delivery of cycle training in schools rests with local highway authorities. To assist Mrs Villiers: The Government are currently looking increased provision of cycle training in England, the at a wide range of options as part of the spending Department for Transport has awarded grants to local review process. authorities in 2010-11 for “Bikeability” training of just over £6 million. We are also providing £5 million to schools through School Sports Partnerships in England WORK AND PENSIONS to provide further Bikeability training opportunities. £500,000 is also available in 2010-11 to provide bursary Departmental Public Expenditure grants for training new instructors (£300 bursary per trainer) and assistant instructors (£150 bursary per Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work trainer) to help meet the increased demand for Bikeability and Pensions whether equality impact assessments will training. be used in determining the areas of his Department’s Future Government funding for cycle training will be budget in respect of which spending will be reduced. considered as part of the current spending review. [8340] 723W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 724W

Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions Ethnic Minority Employment Task Force is considering the equality impacts of all its spending review proposals as plans develop. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when the Ethnic Minority Employment Taskforce is next due to meet; what its role is; and if he Departmental Regulation will make a statement. [7534]

Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The coalition Government are committed and Pensions which of his Department’s regulations to improving opportunities for Black, Asian and Minority are under review; and if he will make a statement. Ethnic communities. The Ethnic Minority Employment [7148] Task Force was set up in 2003 to drive forward strategies designed to ensure ethnic minorities no longer face disproportionate barriers to achievement in the labour Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions market. Task Force membership includes Ministers from is responsible for a wide range of regulations; by necessity all key departments as this multi-dimensional issue the Department is constantly reviewing regulations in requires a cross-governmental approach. relation to delivering its business. Details of those specific regulations currently under review could be provided It has not been possible for the Task Force to meet only at disproportionate cost. since the general election, however, updates on the work agenda together with minutes of every meeting can be found on the Task Force’s website: Disability Living Allowance http://www.emetaskforce.gov.uk

Health and Safety Executive: Expenditure Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people resident in (a) Wansbeck constituency and (b) the UK are in receipt of (i) the Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work mobility component, (ii) the care component and (iii) and Pensions what the Health and Safety Executive’s both the care and mobility components of disability budget was in each year from 1997 to 2009. [8016] living allowance. [6072] Chris Grayling: The answer is provided in the table. Maria Miller: The information requested is in the HSE net resource outturns 1997-98 to 2008-09 following table: Financial year HSE (£000) DLA cases in payment: Wansbeck parliamentary constituency, 1997-98 178,600 November 2009 1998-99 177,500 Both Care 1999-2000 182,300 Care Mobility and component component mobility 2000-01 189,400 All only only component 2001-02 203,301 2002-03 202,276 All 3,119,010 407,880 497,710 2,213,420 cases 2003-04 197,909 Wansbeck 5,400 580 1,140 3,680 2004-05 215,544 1 Notes: 2005-06 239,005 1. Caseload: Totals show the number of people in receipt of an 2006-072 233,622 allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment 2007-083 215,121 has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 2008-09 219,234 2. Parliamentary Constituency: Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 2009-10 229,931 3. A small number of DLA cases are not resident in Britain. The total 1 The 2005-06 outturn has been restated to reflect the transfer of of both invalid and non-British addresses amounts to 3,240 cases. responsibility for rail regulation from HSE to the Office of Rail Geographical area for aggregated statistical analysis is determined by Regulation on 1 April 2006 but the figures from 1997-98 to 2004-05 matching customers’ postcodes to an ONS supplied postcode directory have not been restated. which gives a number of standard geographies. If a customer’s record 2 The 2006-07 outturn has been restated to reflect: the transfer of the does not have a valid postcode then no area code is allocated. Office for Civil Nuclear Security and the UK Safeguards Office to Customers with addresses abroad do not have British postcodes and HSE on 1 April 2007; and the change in treatment of non-retainable therefore are not matched to a British area code. For statistical income in accordance with HM Treasury’s guidance. Figures from purposes these two groups of cases have no British area code allocated previous years have not been restated. and cannot be separated on National Statistics data sets for analysis. 3 The 2007-08 outturn figures have been restated to reflect: the The total of both British cases without valid postcodes and addresses transfer of Pesticides Safety Directorate to HSE on 1 April 2008 and abroad amounts to 3,240 cases out of the total caseload of 3.12 the capitalisation of software licenses. The merger of the Health and million. Safety Commission (HSC) with HSE on 1 April 2008, is also reflected 4. Figures are given for Great Britain rather then the United Kingdom in the restated outturn figures for 2007-08. Figures from 1997-98 to as Northern Ireland Benefits are administered by Northern Ireland 2008-09 include the aggregated cost of HSC and HSE. Social Security Agency. Definitions and Conventions: Health and Safety Executive: Manpower Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10; Some additional disclosure control has also been applied; Totals may not sum due to rounding. Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Source: and Pensions how many inspectors were employed by DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal the Health and Safety Executive in each year from 1997 Study to 2009. [7813] 725W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 726W

Chris Grayling: The answer is provided in the table. in accidents connected to work activities. The following table provides estimates from the LFS for workers and At 1 April Number of inspectors1 the total number of RIDDOR injury notifications for the period 1996-97 to 2008-09. 1997 1,442 1998 1,437 Estimated incidence of Total count of RIDDOR 1999 1,497 self-reported workplace injuries to workers and 2000 1,508 injuries from the LFS members of the public 2001 1,534 1996-97 1— 195,236 2002 1,625 1997-98 1— 195,055 2003 1,651 1 2004 1,605 1998-99 — 186,619 2005 1,530 1999- 1,051,000 191,143 2000 2006 21,444 2007 1,440 2000-01 1,058,000 184,546 2008 1,366 2001-02 1,007,000 174,990 2009 1,469 2002-03 1,026,000 171,743 2010 1,517 2003-04 949,000 178,392 1 All figures are for full-time equivalents, rounded to the nearest 2004-05 880,000 169,533 whole number. 2005-06 833,000 166,971 2 The number and that for the subsequent years excludes 95 inspectors (full-time equivalents) that moved from HSE to the Office of Rail 2006-07 851,000 163,972 Regulation when responsibility for rail regulation health and safety 2007-08 817,000 159,712 matters transferred on 1 April 2006. 2008-09 726,000 *157,835 1 Comparable data is not available from the LFS for the 1996-97 to Industrial Health and Safety 1998-99. Note: John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for The annual basis of RIDDOR recording is the planning year from Work and Pensions what methodology his Department 1 April to 31 March. Data for 2008-09 is provisional, denoted by ‘*’. Source: uses to monitor public attitudes towards health and Labour Force Survey and RIDDOR safety legislation. [8019]

Chris Grayling: Since 2004 the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has commissioned an annual suite of John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for complementary surveys to measure attitudes towards Work and Pensions how many workers incurred a workplace (and awareness of) health and safety at work. In 2009, injury in each year from 1997 to 2009. [8022] these surveys targeted three distinct groups: employees, workplace health and safety managers and chief executive officers or senior directors of medium and large businesses Chris Grayling: The best estimate of the overall number and public sector bodies. The latter two surveys include of injuries to workers comes from the Labour Force questions that measure attitudes towards health and Survey (LFS). Data is also available from notifications safety requirements. of workplace injuries that are made under RIDDOR—the I have arranged for a copy of the 2009 survey report Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences to be placed in the Library. Regulations 1995. This latter dataset only includes accidents In addition to the annual monitoring of attitudes that result in hospital admission or an absence from towards health and safety through this survey programme, work of over three days and is subject to the drawback ad-hoc evaluation studies may also capture attitudes that there is considerable underreporting. The following towards specific health and safety legislation of particular table provides the figures from the LFS and RIDDOR groups at a fixed point in time. regarding injuries to workers for the period 1996-97 to 2008-09. Industrial Injuries Estimated incidence of self-reported workplace Total count of RIDDOR John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for injuries from the LFS injuries to workers Work and Pensions how many workplace injuries there 1 were in each year from 1997 to 2009. [8020] 1996-97 — 159,175 1997-98 1— 166,049 Chris Grayling: The best estimate of the overall number 1998-99 1— 162,450 of injuries to workers comes from the Labour Force 1999- 1,051,000 165,648 Survey (LFS). Data is also available from notifications 2000 of workplace injuries that are made under RIDDOR—the 2000-01 1,058,000 163,266 Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences 2001-02 1,007,000 159,763 Regulations 1995. This latter dataset only includes accidents 2002-03 1,026,000 158,554 that result in hospital admission or an absence from 2003-04 949,000 164,339 work of over three days and is subject to the drawback 2004-05 880,000 154,847 that there is considerable underreporting. However, it 2005-06 833,000 150,702 has a wider coverage than the LFS, as it covers not only 2006-07 851,000 145,784 workers but also members of the public that are injured 2007-08 817,000 140,797 727W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 728W

Estimated incidence of Estimated percentage of workers self-reported workplace Total count of RIDDOR suffering workplace injury in injuries from the LFS injuries to workers previous 12-months

2008-09 726,000 *134,094 1999-2000 4.0 1 Comparable data is not available from the LFS for the early part of 2000-01 4.0 the time period, 1996-97 to 1998-99. 2001-02 3.8 Note: 2002-03 3.8 The annual basis of RIDDOR recording is the planning year from 1 April to 31 March. Data for 2008-09 is provisional, denoted by ‘*’ 2003-04 3.5 Source: 2004-05 3.2 Labour Force Survey and RIDDOR 2005-06 3.0 2006-07 3.1 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 2.9 Work and Pensions how many non-workers were 2008-09 2.6 injured by workplace activities in each year from 1997 Source: Labour Force Survey to 2009. [8023] Jobcentre Plus Chris Grayling: Notifications of injuries to members of the public arising from a work activity (i.e. the Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Work injured person was not at work themselves) are made and Pensions what recent assessment he has made of under RIDDOR—the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases the effectiveness of the work of Jobcentre Plus with and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995. This clients with mental health and substance abuse issues; dataset includes accidents to members of the public and if he will make a statement. [6604] that are either fatal or that result in the injured person being taken directly to hospital. The following table Chris Grayling: There has been no recent formal provides the figures from RIDDOR regarding injuries assessment of the work of Jobcentre Plus with customers to members of the public for the period 1996-97-2008-09. who have substance misuse issues. However, following discussions with officials from the Department of Health, Total count of RIDDOR injury Jobcentre Plus has strengthened its support to this notifications to members of the customer group. public An assessment of support for people with mental 1996-97 36,061 health issues was made in 2009. Jobcentre Plus introduced 1997-98 29,006 a Mental Health Coordinator in each district. This 1998-99 24,169 strengthens the framework of support available to people 1999-2000 25,495 with health conditions. We are currently considering 2000-01 21,280 how best to support customers with mental health and 2001-02 15,227 substance abuse issues and are committed to ensuring 2002-03 13,189 that they are able to participate fully in the society. 2003-04 14,053 2004-05 14,686 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Durham 2005-06 16,269 2006-07 18,188 Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State 2007-08 18,915 for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of 2008-091223,741 (a) individuals and (b) lone parents who will have been 1 Provisional. on jobseeker’s allowance for over 12 months in City of 2 For 2008-09, a change in the legal interpretation of the reportability Durham constituency in 2013. [8465] of accidents occurring in schools has resulted in the addition of approximately 3,400 additional records. In addition, a reduced level of quality checks on reportability was undertaken on incidents involving Chris Grayling: The information is not available. members of the public in local authority (LA) enforced premises. An estimate shows that there are approximately 740 LA records included Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of in the 2008-09 total that in previous years would have been excluded. State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance in City of Durham constituency. [8468] Work and Pensions what his most recent assessment is of the probability of a person being injured at work. Chris Grayling: In April 2010 there were 60 lone [8024] parents claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in City of Durham. The figure has been rounded to the nearest five. Chris Grayling: Based on the latest rate of self-reported workplace injury, we estimate that approximately one in Social Security Benefits: Disability 40 workers currently suffer from a workplace injury in a 12-month period. This estimate is based on the percentage Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for of workers who sustained a workplace injury in 2008-09. Work and Pensions what plans he has for the level of The following table gives the percentages for 1999-2000 funding allocated to the Independent Living Fund for to 2008-09. the financial year (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [7840] 729W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 730W

Maria Miller: The Independent Living Fund budget Transport: Scotland for 2010-11 is £348 million. This is an increase of 3% above its previous year’s allocation. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for No decisions have been made beyond the current Scotland what discussions he has had with the Secretary financial year. Departmental budgets for future years of State for Transport on cross-border rail services are all subject to the forthcoming spending review across serving Motherwell. [7551] Government. Michael Moore: I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues. SCOTLAND Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Independent Living Fund: Scotland Scotland on how many occasions he has used cross-border rail services via Motherwell since 7 May 2010; and Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for when he next plans to do so. [7784] Scotland whether he has had discussions with (a) the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and (b) the Michael Moore: I have not used cross-border rail Scottish Executive on the closure of applications to services via Motherwell in my role as Secretary of State the Independent Living Fund for the 2010-11 financial for Scotland since 7 May 2010. year. [7838] Voting Systems: Scotland Michael Moore: Although the budget of the Independent Living Fund has risen this year, pressure on it has Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for meant that the Fund has been closed to new applicants Scotland what (a) meetings and (b) correspondence for the rest of the financial year. This will ensure that he has had with the Deputy Prime Minister on the date existing claimants are protected and continue to get the of the proposed referendum on the alternative vote help they need. I have regular discussions with ministerial system. [7983] colleagues on a range of issues. Michael Moore: I have regular discussions with my Lanarkshire: Official Visits right hon. Friend and other colleagues on this and other matters. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many times he has visited Lanarkshire on official business since 7 May 2010; and when he next intends to do so. [7785] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Departmental Official Cars Michael Moore: I have not visited Lanarkshire on official business since 7 May 2010. I have plans to visit many areas of Scotland in the course of my duties as Secretary Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of State for Scotland. and Commonwealth Affairs what his estimate is of the mileage travelled by each Minister in his Department in Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for a Government car in (a) May and (b) June 2010. Scotland when he next plans to visit Lanarkshire to [8321] discuss Government spending priorities in that area. [7744] Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Michael Moore: I will be visiting many areas of of State, Department for Transport (Mike Penning) on Scotland and undertaking discussions on a wide range 13 July 2010, Official Report, column 624W. of issues whilst representing the Scotland Office. Departmental Speeches Merchant Shipping Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which (a) (i) civil Scotland on what date he last discussed the Merchant servants and (ii) special advisers in his Department and Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) Regulations 2010 (b) other individuals are employed to write speeches with the Secretary of State for Transport. [8338] for each Minister in his Department. [7401]

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Under-Secretary of State for Transport made a written (FCO) speechwriting team, which serves my right hon. ministerial statement on 8 July 2010, Official Report, Friend the Foreign Secretary and the five other FCO column 14WS, confirming that the Government are in Ministers, consists of four civil servants. no doubt that ship-to-ship transfers require some form of regulation because of their potential damage to the European Union UK’s seas and coasts. However, given the concerns expressed by industry about some aspects of the Merchant Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) Regulations 2010, and Commonwealth Affairs if he will estimate the cost the Government have decided to defer their entry into to his Department of compliance with regulations arising force while a review is conducted. from EU obligations in the last 12 months. [6879] 731W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 732W

Mr Lidington: This information is not held centrally, Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and to provide it would incur disproportionate cost. pursuant to the answer of 21 June 2010, Official Report, columns 4-5W,on armed forces: private education, if he Zimbabwe: Diamonds will review the amount of parental contribution to the continuity of education allowance paid by service personnel Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for in receipt of the allowance. [7801] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with his Zimbabwean counterpart on the Mr Robathan: All allowances remain under regular export of diamonds and compliance with the Kimberley review to ensure that service personnel are adequately Process requirements. [8014] recompensed for conditions of service not covered by the x-factor and for the necessary additional costs incurred Mr Bellingham: My right hon. Friend the Foreign by virtue of service. Continuity of education allowance Secretary is disappointed the Kimberley Process did not allows a stability of education when a service family is reach agreement on Zimbabwean diamonds when it met required to be mobile for service reasons. Under current on 21-24 June 2010, and calls on its participants to arrangements the service person claiming the allowance work hard to reach agreement when they meet again on pays a minimum contribution of 10% of the school fees. 14-16 July. The level of this contribution has been scrutinised every Our embassy in Harare will continue to urge the year and is currently assessed as appropriate. Government of Zimbabwe to maintain a firm commitment to the Kimberley Process and urgently to take action to Defence bring all mining operations in the Marange fields into compliance with Kimberley Process requirements. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has set a timetable for receiving contributions to the Strategic Defence and Security DEFENCE Review from (a) members of the public and (b) representative organisations. [6743] Armed Forces: Deployment Mr Letwin: I have been asked to reply. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Government have already begun engaging with key in how many military (a) conventional state on state partners and representative organisations on the Strategic and (b) counter insurgency conflicts British forces have Defence and Security Review, and will be providing been involved in the last 30 years. [5276] individual members of the armed forces and their families Dr Fox: There is no standard definition of conflict, with the opportunity to contribute. I refer the hon. state conflict, or counter insurgency. Taking a reasonable Member to the answer given by the noble Lord Taylor interpretation of these terms, since 1980 UK forces have of Holbeach on 7 July 2010, Official Report, House of been involved in the following conflicts involving force Lords, column WA 48. The Government expects to against another state, some of them undertaken in publish a National Security Strategy and the outcomes distinct operational phases over time: Falkland Islands; of the Strategic Defence and Security Review in the Bosnia; Kosovo; Iraq (twice). Operations of a counter autumn, in coordination with the Comprehensive Spending insurgency nature have been undertaken in Afghanistan, Review (CSR). Contributions and ideas from members Kosovo, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, of the public and representative organisations and others Sierra Leone, Vanuatu, and the follow on phases of the are welcome at any time during this process. second Iraq conflict. Departmental Equality Operations that fall outside these definitions including peace keeping and peace support, UN observer missions, Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence evacuation and humanitarian operations and military how much his Department has spent (a) in total and aid to the civil authorities. (b) on staff costs on promoting equality and diversity Details of individual defence operations and their in each of the last three years for which figures are purposes over the period in question can be found in the available; and how many people are employed by his Defence Annual Report and Accounts, and its predecessor Department for this purpose. [5911] publications, which are all published documents and are placed in the Library of the House. Mr Robathan: The information requested is not held Armed Forces: Private Education centrally. To determine a cost for this activity would require extensive collation from all areas of the MOD Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and this could be provided only at disproportionate pursuant to the answer of 21 June 2010, Official Report, cost. columns 4-5W, on armed forces: private education, Departmental Human Resources what the (a) highest, (b) lowest and (c) average parental contribution paid in respect of each rank in receipt of continuity of education allowance was in (i) 2007-08 Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for and (ii) 2008-09. [7222] Defence how much his Department has spent on human resources in each year since 1997. [5104] Mr Robathan: Details of the average parental contribution paid by each rank in receipt of continuity Mr Robathan: Financial information for both civilian of education allowance are not held centrally and could and military human resources is not held centrally and be provided only at disproportionate cost. could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 733W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 734W

Departmental ICT Gibraltar: Spain

Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the original estimated cost was of the Defence what reports he has received on the incident between Information Infrastructure project; and what his most Royal Navy vessels and the Spanish Civil Guard patrol recent estimate is of the cost of that project. [6998] boats which took place in British waters around Gibraltar on 17 June 2010. [8083]

Peter Luff: The current estimate of the whole Defence Nick Harvey [holding answer 13 July 2010]: There Information Infrastructure (DII) Programme is around are no reports of an incident in British Gibraltarian £7.1 billion; this figure was reported by the NAO in Territorial Waters involving the Royal Navy on 17 June their Value for Money Report published 4 July 2008. 2010. This figure includes two future—and not on contract— increments for DII Deployed Restricted and the second tranche of DII Top Secret and also includes other Red Arrows separately funded programmes, which are outside of DII but on which DII depends. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for An earlier estimate of £5.854 billion was calculated at Defence what the military application is of the Red contract let as the cost to deploy DII to permanent land Arrows; and what military usage has been made of the sites only. This estimate did not include monies for DII Red Arrows in each of the last five years. [6475] Deployed and Top Secret as their capability and scope were not fully mature at that time. Nick Harvey: The Red Arrows do not have a direct Due to the changing shape of the Defence landscape, operational role. However, they contribute to a number which will be informed by the Strategic Defence and of military tasks, including public duties and security Security Review, the current £7.1 billion estimate may co-operation, where they support defence diplomacy by need to be revisited once the review is completed. demonstrating British excellence, strengthening international relations and promoting wider British influence and Departmental Training interests. Readily available information on Red Arrows participation in events of this nature over the last five Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for years is provided in the following table. This excludes Defence what training has been provided for Ministers the significant number of fly-pasts (undertaken en-route) in his Department since the formation of the present to and from more formal engagements as this information administration; and at what cost. [6446] could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Mr Robathan: Defence Ministers have been provided Overseas with a wide-ranging induction package including briefs UK formal Overseas formal fly- on security, finance, IT, and the running of Government. UK display flypast display past In-house media training is also given so that Ministers 2005 79 3 16 1 are able to effectively communicate the objectives of the 2006 64 1 16 0 Ministry of Defence and the work of the armed forces 2007 70 4 19 0 to the media and the wider public. 2008 57 6 12 0 I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my 2009 82 2 12 0 right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude) to the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) on 3 June 2010, Official Report, columns 51-52W. The National School of Government is funded through its Core Learning Programme to deliver induction and ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS other training to Ministers, and there is no separate charge to Departments. Agriculture: Research European Fighter Aircraft Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research Diana R. Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for projects on (a) soil science, (b) traditional plant breeding, Defence what information his Department holds on the (c) marker-assisted plant breeding, (d) crop agronomy, number of employees in the UK defence and aerospace (e) plant physiology, (f) plant pathology, (g) agricultural sector working on the Typhoon Fighter programme botany, (h) environmental microbiology, (i) weed science, (a) in East Yorkshire and (b) in the UK. [7015] (j) entomology, (k) crop irrigation, (l) nitrogen fixation, (m) soil phosphorous, (n) soil erosion, (o) pollinating Peter Luff: Analysis by the Department for Business, insects and (p) integrated pest management her Department Innovation and Skills is that a minimum of 8,600 jobs has funded since 1997; what the (i) research topic, (ii) should be directly sustained in the UK by the Typhoon start date, (iii) cost and (iv) project code was of each programme. The Ministry of Defence does not hold such project; who the main contractor was in each case; information on how many of these jobs are in East and which such projects have been completed to date. Yorkshire. [8032] 735W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 736W

Richard Benyon: Data taken from the Science Information The results are as closely matched as possible but due System, used to store data on all of DEFRA’s research to the design of the system it is not possible to extract and development projects, has been placed in the House the data precisely as requested. Library. Air Pollution Each project is assigned keywords, which is how the list was generated. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, The results using these keywords is as closely matched Food and Rural Affairs what assistance her Department as possible but due to the design of the system it is not offers to local authorities for the purpose of managing possible to extract the data precisely as requested. air quality management areas. [7093] Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: DEFRA supports local authorities Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research in a number of ways, most specifically through the projects designed to assist the development of organic provision of guidance. agriculture her Department has funded since 1997; what the (a) research topic, (b) start date, (c) cost and Guidance is intended to ensure consistency of approach (d) project code was of each such project; who the in meeting Local Air Quality Management (LAQM) main contractor was in each case; and which such duties and to provide practice guidance on preparing projects have been completed to date. [8033] action plans, consulting stakeholders and developing measures, including cost benefit appraisals. We provide Richard Benyon: Data taken from the Science Information technical, policy and practice guidance on local air quality System, used to store data on all of DEFRA’s research management and in measures to improve air quality. and development projects, have been placed in the House All our guidance on air quality can be found at: Library. www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/airquality/local/ Each project is assigned certain appropriate keywords, guidance/index.htm which is how the list was generated. A support package, including a helpdesk, emissions The results are as closely matched as possible but due tools and case studies, is also to the design of the system it is not possible to necessarily available at: extract the data precisely as requested. www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/airquality/local/ support/index.htm Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for An air quality grant is also available, currently £2.3 million Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research per year, to support statutory duties on LAQM, and projects designed to assist farmers to (a) mitigate the help support (running costs) for monitoring, emissions effects of and (b) adapt to climate change her Department inventories, dispersion modelling and action planning. has funded since 1997; what the (i) research topic, (ii) Since introduction, DEFRA has distributed grant start date, (iii) cost and (iv) project code was of each funding of £41 million to English local authorities. such project; who the main contractor was in each case; and which such projects have been completed to date. Air Pollution: East of England [8034] Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Richard Benyon: Data taken from the Science Information Food and Rural Affairs when each air quality management System, used to store data on all of DEFRA’s research area in each local authority in the East of England was and development projects, have been placed in the House designated. [7091] Library. Each project is assigned certain appropriate keywords, Richard Benyon: To date, 28 local authorities have which is how the list was generated. designated air quality management areas in the East of The results are as closely matched as possible but due England. These are listed in the following table alongside to the design of the system it is not possible to extract the dates the air quality management areas (AQMA) the data precisely as requested. came into effect. Further information is available on the UK National Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Air Quality Archive Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research http://aqma.defra.gov.uk/list.php projects on (a) the sources and quantity of greenhouse which is operated on behalf of the Department. gases, (b) water pollution and (c) air pollution arising from agricultural activity her Department has funded Authority Date of effect of AQMA since 1997; what the (i) research topic, (ii) start date, (iii) cost and (iv) project code was of each such project; Babergh District Council 21 November 2008 who the main contractor was in each case; and which Bedford Borough Council 17 May 2005 and 6 November 2009 such projects have been completed to date. [8035] Breckland District Council 9 May 2005 Brentwood Borough Council 10 January 2005 Richard Benyon: Data taken from the science information Broxbourne Borough 1 November 2001 and 1 March system, used to store data on all of DEFRA’s research Council 2004 and development projects, has been placed in the House Cambridge City Council 1 September 2004 Library. Central Bedfordshire 17 January 2005 Council Each project is assigned certain appropriate keywords, Colchester Borough Council 1 May 2001 and 1 January 2006 which is how the list was generated. 737W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 738W

Mr Paice: It is the coalition’s policy to enhance the Authority Date of effect of AQMA role of farming co-operatives—which have an important Chelmsford Borough 1 December 2005 role to play in improving the productivity and Council competitiveness of farming. East Hertfordshire Council 14 February 2007 Earlier this year, the EFRA Select Committee issued Epping Forest District 1 January 2008 a report following the collapse of Dairy Farmers of Council Britain in the summer of 2009. Its recommendations Fenland District Council 1 May 2001, 1 April 2006 and were wide-reaching and covered complex and specialist 1 September 2006 issues which go beyond DEFRA’s responsibilities for Forest Heath District 6 April 2009 Council dairy and agricultural cooperatives. DEFRA is leading Hertsmere Borough Council 8 April 2003 and 1 January 2005 across Government to bring together a response to this Huntingdonshire District 1 December 2005 and report and the Secretary of State will be formally responding Council 1 September 2006 to the Committee shortly. Ipswich Borough Council 11 April 2006 Kings Lynn and West 1 November 2003 Departmental Lost Property Norfolk Luton Borough Council 3 November 2003 and Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for 31 March 2005 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what property Norwich City Council 1 June 2003 has been recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen from the Peterborough Council 1 May 2007 Department in the last 12 months; and what estimate South Cambridgeshire 17 July 2008 has been made of the cost of the replacement of that District Council property. [5973] St Albans City and District 2 September 2002 and 2 November 2004 Richard Benyon: Property items lost or stolen are all St Edmundsbury Borough 1 June 2010 Council recorded as ‘losses’. The following table shows losses Suffolk Coastal District 3 April 2006 and 1 May 2009 with an estimated value (at the time of loss) of over £50. Council Figures are from 1 July 2009 to 30 June 2010. Three Rivers District 1 April 2001 Council Description Number Estimated value (£) Thurrock Council 1 April 2001 and 1 February 2005 BlackBerrys 9 1,510 Uttlesford District Council 1 August 2007 Camera 1 100 Watford Borough Council 17 February 2006 Laptops 41 25,650 Desktop PCs 4 1,050 Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Projectors 3 1,850 Food and Rural Affairs how many areas in the East of Monitors 5 460 England formerly designated as air quality management Other items 4 550 areas have had that designation removed in each year since 1997. [7092] Measures to deter, prevent and detect theft are an important feature of the Department’s protective security Richard Benyon: Since 1997 10 local authorities in the controls. These controls reflect the standards set out in East of England have revoked air quality management the HMG Security Policy Framework (SPF) issued by areas. These are: the Cabinet Office. DEFRA takes the loss of equipment very seriously Authority Date of AQMA revocation so regular security guidance is provided to staff. Security

2 breach patrols are undertaken and staff are notified of Babergh district council 9 March 2004 instances where equipment has been left out or inadequately 1 Bedford borough council 6 November 2009 secured. Broadland district council 6 April 2010 1 Central Bedfordshire council 6 November 2009 Departmental Official Cars East Hertfordshire council2 28 July 2004 Hertsmere borough council2 8 April 2003 Kings Lynn and W Norfolk1 11 August 2006 Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her estimate is of the South Cambridgeshire district 23 July 2008 council1 mileage travelled by each Minister in her Department in St Edmundsbury borough council2 14 January 2003 a Government car in (a) May and (b) June 2010. Thurrock council1 1 February 2005 [8320] 1 Part of AQMA was revoked still leaving in place some AQMAs 2 Further AQMA was declared following the revocation Richard Benyon: The Department does not hold this information. Dairy Farming: Cooperatives Departmental Regulation Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy is Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for on the creation of and support for dairy farming Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which of her co-operatives; and what recent steps her Department Department’s regulations are under review; and if she has taken in support of this policy. [7056] will make a statement. [7154] 739W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 740W

Mr Paice: The Government are taking steps to reduce of the equine sector. The Government do not mandate the burden of regulation, including a fundamental review the collection of pedigree data, which is provided on a of regulations in the pipeline. DEFRA is playing a full voluntarily basis by breed societies. part in this process. No assessment has been made of the impact of As part of this commitment, Richard Macdonald semen imports and artificial insemination on the number will head an industry-led Task Force on Farming Regulation of accurate pedigree records in the National Equine to identify ways to reduce the regulatory burden and Database. Such data are not held on the Database. The advise on how best to achieve a risk-based system of Government do not maintain statistics on the artificial regulation. insemination of horses. Departmental Speeches Litter

Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which (a) (i) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she civil servants and (ii) special advisers in her Department plans to take to reduce the level of litter. [6765] and (b) other individuals are employed to write speeches for each Minister in her Department. [7296] Richard Benyon: This Government have made reducing litter a priority. There is no excuse for littering and we Richard Benyon: Two and a half civil servants are are working with interested partners in business, councils employed to write speeches for the ministerial team. and civil society to collaborate in tackling this problem. EU Law Addressing the litter problem begins at a local level and local authorities have a duty to keep their land clear Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for of litter and refuse and have been given powers of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will estimate enforcement, first through the Environmental Protection the cost to her Department of compliance with regulations Act 1990 and more recently the Clean Neighbourhoods arising from EU obligations in the last 12 months. and Environment Act 2005 to deal with offenders though [6878] either the courts or in issuing on the spot fines. Littering is a problem best managed locally. Local Mr Paice: The last estimate of the cost of EU regulation authorities and magistrates have the necessary legislation to British businesses made by DEFRA was contained to enforce anti-litter policies. Councils can encourage in the second Forward Regulatory Programme published local initiatives, such as the Campaign to Protect Rural in April 2010. This publication includes new regulatory England’s ’Stop the Drop’ campaign. costs stemming from the EU between April 2010 and April 2011. DEFRA has not to date estimated the Pets: Animal Welfare overall cost of either all individual EU regulation or domestic regulation, however we are currently reviewing Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for our regulatory landscape (both stock and pipeline measures) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects in line with commitments made in the coalition agreement to publish the results of her Department’s research to significantly strengthen the approach to reducing the project on electric pet training devices. [6768] burden of regulation. We also recently announced two specific reviews which Mr Paice: The research project on electronic training will capture and scrutinise regulation originating from devices is due to be completed and the report submitted the EU. The Task Force on Farming Regulation, announced to DEFRA by the end of November 2010. The results on 9 June, has been set up to identify ways to reduce the of the project will not be published until they have been regulatory burden placed on the farming sector. A peer-reviewed. similar review on ‘Waste’policy in England was announced Poultry: Animal Welfare on 15 June. Horses: Databases Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for steps she plans to take to ensure that UK standards on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent the welfare of chickens reared for meat production are estimate she has made of the percentage of accessible maintained following the implementation of Council National Equine Database records of pedigrees which Directive 2007/43/EC; and if she will make a statement. are accurate; and what assessment he has made of the [8170] effect on that level of accuracy of the (a) absence and (b) lack of public availability of data on semen Mr Paice [holding answer 13 July 2010]: Member imports and artificial insemination. [7880] states, including the UK, were required to bring in laws, regulations and administrative provisions to comply Mr Paice: As of 8 July 2010, National Equine Database with Council Directive 2007/43/EC by 30 June 2010. Ltd has reported that there are 1,389,192 active horse Animal Health conduct random, targeted and risk based records in the National Equine Database. Of these, inspections of farmed premises to check the welfare of some 56% (774,575 records) have had sire or dam data livestock and to ensure compliance with the regulations. supplied by independent breed societies. Appropriate action will also be taken by Animal Health Pedigree records are held on the commercial section should welfare concerns be identified by the Food Standards of the National Equine Database, which is owned and Agency Operations Group (formally the Meat Hygiene managed by National Equine Database Ltd on behalf Service). 741W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 742W

The European Commission has a system in place to (2) if she will commission a report from the ensure that Community legislation on animal welfare is Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis on the policing properly implemented and enforced. This includes a of the demonstration held in Parliament Square on planned programme of visits by the Food and Veterinary 2 July 2010; and if she will make a statement. [7277] Office to member states under the meat chicken directive. Nick Herbert: We are reviewing the law governing protests in and around Parliament Square. HOME DEPARTMENT The Government will continue its discussions with the Greater London Authority, Westminster City Council, Corruption the Metropolitan Police, the Speaker and other interested parties on how to support peaceful protest while preventing Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State criminal activity and securing enjoyment and use of the for the Home Department how much has been provided Square for all. to fund the City of London Police Overseas Anti- The responsibility for managing Parliament Square Corruption Unit in each year since 2006; and what her Garden rests with the Greater London Authority (GLA) plans are for the future of the unit and its funding. under the GLA Act 1999. The Mayor of London has [5607] taken action in the High Court to deal with the current encampment on Parliament Square Garden. This matter Nick Herbert: The City of London Police Overseas remains before the courts. Anti-Corruption Unit is funded by the Department for International Development and the Department for Departmental Buildings Business, Innovation and Skills. The total funding is set out in the following table: John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many buildings her Department £ occupies in (a) London and (b) the UK. [6852] DfID BIS Financial year Total contribution contribution Nick Herbert: The Department excluding its executive 2006-07 273,027 273,027 — agencies mainly occupies one building in central London 2007-08 764,158 764,158 — and has minor occupations in three others. It occupies 2008-09 907,733 840,358 67,375 12 others outside London. Proposals to vacate buildings 2009-10 1,054,701 923,875 130,826 are under consideration. No decisions have been taken on the future of the Departmental Conferences unit and its funding. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Home Department what estimate she has made of her for the Home Department if she will place a copy of Department’s expenditure on (a) organisation of and the Overseas Corruption Assessment drawn up by the (b) attendance at conferences in each year since 1997. City of London Police Overseas Anti-Corruption Unit [6121] in the Library. [5611] Nick Herbert: Expenditure incurred on the organisation Nick Herbert: The report in question is a police of and attendance at conferences cannot be identified authored document and we do not therefore propose to separately without incurring disproportionate cost. lay a copy in the House Library. The City of London However, the Department has recorded conference-related police would however be happy to supply a copy to the expenditure on its accounting systems and these are set right hon. Member or to brief him privately on the out in the table. This includes conferences organised content. and funded by the Home Office for partner bodies and the costs of conference attended by Home Office staff. Crime Prevention Conference costs (£000) Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether her Department plans to 2004-05 5,190 proceed with the Not in My Neighbourhood week 2005-06 10,594 scheme in (a) 2010 and (b) future years. [7761] 2006-07 9,326 2007-08 4,020 Nick Herbert: Not in My Neighbourhood Week will 2008-09 5,844 not take place in 2010. Plans for future years are under 2009-10 7,760 review General and subsidiary ledgers produced for the purpose Demonstrations: Parliament Square of preparing certified financial statements are not retained after a period of six years, in line with National Audit Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Office requirements. The Department does not hold the Home Department (1) if she will take steps to ensure requested information for financial years before 2004-05. that Parliament Square is kept free of demonstrators on All expenditure on conference services is incurred in parliamentary sitting days; what recent representations accordance with the principles of Managing Public she has received on this issue; and if she will make a Money and the Treasury handbook on Regularity and statement; [7276] Propriety. 743W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 744W

Departmental Electronic Equipment Nick Herbert: The utility spend for Home Office HQ at 2 Marsham Street for the last five years is set out in Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the the following table: Home Department how much (a) her Department and Table A (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies £ spent on televisions in each year since 1997. [7510] 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Nick Herbert: Information on expenditure on television Electricity 896,118 1,155,412 1,061,074 1,257,195 1,285,273 purchase since 1997 is not held centrally and would Gas 75,159 74,869 66,484 122,735 80,914 incur disproportionate cost to obtain. Water 92,586 92,438 102,778 116,307 123,951

Departmental Lighting Information on utilities spend for across the rest of the estate is not held centrally. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the The telephony spend for the Home Department and Home Department how much (a) her Department and UKBA from available records is set out in the following (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies table: spent on light bulbs in each year since 1997. [7630] Table B £ million Nick Herbert: Information on expenditure on light Telephony 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 bulbs since 1997 is not held centrally and would incur disproportionate cost to obtain. Home 4.4 3.8 3.7 3.8 Office UKBA — 12.0 11.7 10.6 Departmental Photographs

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the UKBA telephony spend for 2006-07 is not available Home Department how much her Department has as it was consolidated within other costs and can not be spent on official photographs of Ministers since the individually identified. Telephony spend for other Home formation of the present administration. [6449] Office agencies and non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally. Nick Herbert: Since the formation of the Government the Home Office has spent £1,000 on official photographs of Ministers. The fee was for hire of a professional photographer for two days to take photographs of Hillsborough Stadium: Disclosure of Information Ministers for official use, including the Home Office website, documenting the Home Secretary’s arrival at the Home Office, and the Home Secretary’s first address Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for the to Home Office staff for the intranet. Home Department on what date she expects the first documents relating to the Hillsborough disaster to be released by relevant Government departments. [6796] Departmental Security Nick Herbert [holding answer 8 July 2010]: The Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Hillsborough Independent Panel is overseeing the process Home Department how much (a) her Department and for maximum public disclosure of documents relating (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies to the Hillsborough stadium disaster. Government spent on security in each year since 1997. [7378] Departments are already working on the arrangements for identifying, cataloguing and reviewing these records. Nick Herbert: Security in the Home Office Group is My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has met embedded in its operations. The central unit responsible recently with the Bishop of Liverpool in his capacity as for oversight of security. The Departmental Security chair of the independent panel and has given personal Unit, and the security units for the agencies provide backing to the project. central points of support and advice but much of the day to day work of security is done by local units under the guidance of their security liaison officers. It would be difficult to extract the costs of this work Immigration as it would involve examining the accounts of every unit in the Home Office Group. This could be done only at disproportionate cost. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people were given leave to enter the UK under the Post-Study Route of Tier Departmental Utilities One of the points-based immigration system in each month since its introduction. [7766] Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much (a) her Department and Damian Green [holding answer 12 July 2010]: The (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies number of people given leave to enter the UK under the spent on (i) electricity, (ii) water, (iii) heating and (iv) post-study route of tier 1 of the points-based immigration telephone services in each year since 1997. [7592] system is given in the following table: 745W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 746W

Post-study route tier 1 Police Community Support Officers: Greater Endorsement Manchester Tier 1 (post Tier 1 (post study) main study) Tier 1 (post applicant partner study) child Grand total Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for the April 00—0Home Department how many police community support 2008 officers there are in (a) Bolton and (b) Greater Manchester. May 2008 0 0 0 0 [7843] June 2008 0 0 — 0 July 2008 47 3 0 50 Nick Herbert: Latest available data, as at 31 Match August 84 7 3 94 2009, show that there were 67 police community support 2008 officers in Bolton (BCU) and 782 police community September 110 16 3 129 2008 support officers in Greater Manchester police force. October 134 25 6 165 2008 Police: Manpower November 178 65 12 255 2008 December 206 65 24 295 Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008 Home Department what estimate she has made of the effects on the number of (a) police officers, (b) January 319 101 27 447 community police officers and (c) other front line staff 2009 in the Northumbria police force of the reduction in the February 375 133 38 546 force’s funding for 2010-11. [7123] 2009 March 372 127 39 538 2009 Nick Herbert: Every force will face a cut equivalent to April 298 122 31 451 the same percentage (under 1.5%) of the core funding 2009 they receive from central Government. May 2009 338 187 71 596 These proposed reductions should not impact on the June 2009 378 172 43 593 frontline. Decisions about the number of police officers, July 2009 299 161 46 506 police community support officers and other police August 355 106 37 498 2009 staff engaged by the police remain a matter for each September 395 141 38 574 chief constable and the police authority, but we have 2009 made it clear that the frontline should remain strong October 422 222 89 733 and secure and we expect police authorities to look at 2009 how they spend their money and ensure that they are November 379 239 86 704 delivering a cost effective service to achieve this. 2009 December 314 183 41 538 2009 Police: VAT

January 415 160 50 625 2010 Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the February 389 188 50 627 Home Department (1) what estimate she has made of 2010 the financial effects on police forces of the proposed March 487 245 72 804 increase in the standard rate of value added tax in 2010 2011; [7270] (2) how much value added tax was paid by police Grand 6,294 2,668 806 9,768 forces in the latest year for which figures are available. total [7271] The data in this table are based on management information. They are provisional and subject to change. Nick Herbert: We do not hold information centrally on how much police forces pay in VAT. Police Community Support Officer: Redundancy Speed Limits: Fines Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the (a) minimum and (b) average redundancy costs in Home Department how many fines for speeding respect of a police community support officer whose offences have been (a) issued by each police force in services are no longer required. [6371] the East of England region in each year since 1997 and (b) how many such fines have been paid by residents of Nick Herbert [holding answer 6 July 2010]: No such Norwich South constituency in each such year. [7052] estimates have been made. It is an issue for each force to determine police staff redundancy costs. The redundancy Nick Herbert: Data showing the number of fixed terms are set out under the Local Government Pension penalty notices (FPNs) issued by police in the East of Scheme (and Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme for England region from 1997 to 2008 (latest available), the Metropolitan Police) and the associated compensation broken down by police force area, are provided in schemes. table A. 747W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 748W

Additionally, data on the number of court fines for persons paying the fines; therefore it is not possible to speeding, provided by the Ministry of Justice, are provided identify the number of fines paid by residents of the in table B. Norwich South constituency. The data on fines reported to the Home Office and Ministry of Justice do not include information on the

Table A: Number of fixed penalty notices issued for speeding offences, by police force area, East of England region 1997-20071 Police force area 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Bedfordshire 8,700 10,255 18,008 16,707 13,415 40,338 66,709 56,762 44,736 48,407 30,029 19,884 Cambridgeshire 14,837 13,818 14,562 8,708 6,777 15,435 28,510 19,802 44,997 20,502 25,371 22,548 Essex 48,123 19,282 38,097 56,010 87,038 101,063 66,281 68,852 85,745 60,705 44,796 25,956 Hertfordshire 17,604 14,063 25,687 23,956 23,474 23,203 28,696 61,637 49,738 81,805 41,593 34,945 Norfolk 4,895 5,379 9,267 4,783 5,166 17,116 31,640 26,938 25,117 24,985 24,878 20,359 Suffolk 7,271 12,640 18,088 12,596 12,416 9,477 16,606 40,847 40,029 34,442 30,378 34,678 Total East of 101,430 75,437 123,709 122,760 148,286 206,632 238,442 274,838 290,362 270,846 197,045 158,370 England 1 Includes only FPNs issued and paid. Where penalties are not paid and are referred to court, they are no longer recorded as FPNs.

Table B: The number of fines imposed at all courts in the East of England Government Office Region, by police force area, for speed limit offences1, from 1997 to 20082,3 Police force area 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Bedfordshire 1,024 3,431 1,913 2,019 2,332 1,551 3,521 1,171 4,507 4,353 4,239 2,530 Cambridgeshire 4,930 3,126 2,647 1,625 756 521 1,163 1,754 2,191 3,466 4,181 4,103 Essex 5,035 4,743 6,619 6,275 9,132 14,570 9,263 8,292 9,961 7,688 7,247 5,355 Hertfordshire 2,115 2,838 2,771 2,277 2,088 2,334 2,167 1,806 2,990 2,915 2,525 2,409 Norfolk 1,215 1,372 1,679 1,374 1,449 1,269 2,372 2,764 2,824 3,453 2,669 2,579 Suffolk 1,041 1,456 1,648 1,210 1,236 1,266 763 1,820 3,213 3,035 3,401 3,561 Total 15,360 16,966 17,277 14,780 16,993 21,511 19,249 17,607 25,686 24,910 24,262 20,537 1 Offences under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 ss. 16. 81, 84. 86, 88 & 89; Motor Vehicles (Speed Limit on Motorways) Regs. 1973; Parks Regulation (Amendment) Act 1926—byelaws made thereunder. 2 It is known that for some police force areas, the reporting of court proceedings in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than complete. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

LEADER OF THE HOUSE Sir George Young: The Office of the Leader of the House of Commons is part of the Cabinet Office. I refer the hon. Member to the answer by the Minister for Departmental Official Cars the Cabinet Office of 13 July 2010, Official Report, column 668W.

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Leader of the House how much his Office has spent on the Government Car ATTORNEY-GENERAL Service since the Government took office. [7961]

Departmental Buildings Sir George Young: The Office of the Leader of the House of Commons is part of the Cabinet Office. I Graham Evans: To ask the Attorney-General how refer the hon. Member to the answer by the Minister for much (a) the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) their the Cabinet Office of 12 July 2010, Official Report, agency spent on office refurbishment in each year since column 598W. 1997. [7348] The Attorney-General: The information requested is detailed in the following table: Departmental Travel Cost (£) NFA1 SFO2 CPS3 Tsol4 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Leader of the House which (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Office have been 2001-02 — — — 154,000 driven by the Government Car Service since the 2002-03 — — — 36,000 Government took office; and how much each of these 2003-04 — — 8,364,000 — persons has received in expenses for use of taxis, buses 2004-05 — — 7,327,000 — and underground trains in that period. [7962] 2005-06 — 180,578 4,402,000 — 749W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 750W

The Attorney-General: Since the Government took Cost (£) 1 2 3 4 office, the Crown Prosecution Service has spent £14,858.21 NFA SFO CPS Tsol on the Government car service. 2006-07 — 1,041,957 6,251,000 — Treasury Solicitor’s have made payments of £22,985 2007-08 — 1,534,458 4,724,000 2,774,000 to the Government car service between May 6 and 2008-09 — 1,132,476 5,173,000 39,000 30 June. This includes the costs incurred by the Attorney- 2009-10 34,770 52,008 10,293,000 — General’s Office. 1 The National Fraud Authority shared premises with HM Crown The SFO, HMCPSI and NFA do not use the Prosecution Service Inspectorate in 2008-09 and had no refurbishment costs during this period. Government car service. 2 2005-06 was the first year that money was spent on refurbishment and the figures include all capital expenditure. Departmental Training 3 The figures from 2005-06 onwards include costs for the Revenue and Customs Prosecution Service (RCPO)—who merged with the CPS on 1 January 2010. The data is taken from the Financial Management Graham Evans: To ask the Attorney-General how System and is only available from 2003-04 onwards, data for earlier years could be obtained only at a disproportionate cost. The data for much (a) the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) their 2009-10 are subject to audit. agency spent on employee awaydays in each year since 4 The data includes TSol, AGO and HMCPSI. Figures prior to 1997. [7310] 2001-02 are not retained and could be determined only at a disproportionate cost. In May 2007 the Attorney-General’s Office was relocated as the lease on its accommodation had ended. The The Attorney-General: Information relating to the expenditure in 2007-08 reflects the cost of fitting out the new Law Officer’s departments is as follows. accommodation. The National Fraud Authority (NFA) spent £5,100 on staff away day events during 2009-10. There was no Departmental Marketing expenditure in 2008-09 when the NFA was launched. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is a devolved Graham Evans: To ask the Attorney-General how organisation and local managers are responsible for much (a) the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) their arranging away days. Information on the number and agency spent on logo design in each year since 1997. costs of away days that took place outside CPS buildings [7474] attended by civil servants is not recorded centrally. To obtain the information requested would require all managers The Attorney-General: The information requested is to review financial records since 2003 (our financial as follows. systems can only go that far back) and would incur disproportionate cost. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office (RCPO) merged on The following information is available for away days 1 January 2010. relating to the Revenue and Customs Prosecution Office (RCPO) who merged with the CPS on 1 January 2010: Expenditure on logos in both organisations since 1997 was as follows: Expenditure (£) 2006-07: £5,950—redesign cost of the CPS logo. 2005-06: £8,594—total cost of the RCPO logo. This figure 2005-06 6,159 represents the full cost for the design and implementation of 2006-07 15,092 the logo, which took place at the new organisation’s inception. 2007-08 27,401 A breakdown of this figure to provide solely the design costs is 2008-09 77,581 not available. 2009-10 18,468 TSol redesigned its logo in 2004-05. The total cost 2009-10 1— was £20,000. 1 Amounts are still subject to audit. Since 1997 the Serious Fraud Office has spent £16,290 The Serious Fraud Office holds workshops and on branding exercises. conferences which relate directly to business priorities Since launching in 2008-09, the National Fraud Authority and strategy. Participation and contribution by staff is spent £38,290 in 2008-09, and £38,024 in 2009-10 on required. The cost for such events is not recorded separately logo design. The expenditure incurred in 2008-09 was from other conference events, the total cost for which is for the design and development of the National Fraud detailed in the following table. Strategic Authority (NFSA) brand, including logo design. The expenditure in 2009-10 includes rebranding to the Financial year Cost (£) National Fraud Authority (logo development and office branding), and development of the Action Fraud logo. 1997-98 5,973 1998-99 10,517 The Attorney-General’s office and HMCPSI have incurred no external design expenditure on logo design. 1999-2000 13,596 2000-01 24,525 2001-02 55,260 Departmental Official Cars 2002-03 45,181 2003-04 19,170 2004-05 78,800 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Attorney-General how 2005-06 42,295 much the Law Officers’ Departments have spent on the 2006-07 79,675 Government car service since the Government took 2007-08 28,628 office. [7998] 751W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 752W

Financial year Cost (£) £000 Telephone 2008-09 36,977 Electricity Water Gas Heating services 2009-10 26,956 2001-02 72.6 18.4 28.1 331.9 It is not possible to separately identify the amount 2002-03 63.4 19.5 36.2 232.2 spent by the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, Attorney- 2003-04 86.6 17.7 40.6 341.5 General’s Office and HM Crown Prosecution Inspectorate 2004-05 92.7 16.3 65.7 329.3 on staff away days from other expenditure on training 2005-06 144.5 15.1 28.8 403.5 and organising and attending conferences without incurring 2006-07 169.9 7.7 30.7 399.6 disproportionate cost. 2007-08 185.4 7.1 7.5 429.7 2008-09 326.8 2.0 30.4 416.7 Departmental Utilities 2009-10 420.4 3.6 21.0 503.5

Graham Evans: To ask the Attorney-General how The following tables show the amounts for electricity, much (a) the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) their water and gas (the gas and electricity would form part agency spent on (i) electricity, (ii) water, (iii) heating of the heating charges) and telephone services incurred and (iv) telephone services in each year since 1997. by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). They also [7580] show the amount spent on telephone services and utilities by the Revenue and Customs Prosecution Service The Attorney-General: The information requested is (RCPO)—who merged with the CPS on 1 January 2010. outlined as follows. The data are taken from the financial management Spending on these utilities by the SFO is outlined in system and are only available for 2003-04 onwards. the following table: RCPO expenditure for 2009-10 is included in the CPS totals for that year. Cost (£) CPS 1 SFO Electricity Water Heating Telephones Expenditure (£ million)

1997-98 64,844 6,580 6,206 90,272 Telephone services 1998-99 58,443 5,132 5,531 98,417 2003-04 5.342 1999- 63,007 3,427 6,391 93,376 2000 2004-05 5.818 2000-01 53,988 3,001 9,987 81,695 2005-06 6.479 2001-02 72,433 3,914 9,581 156,693 2006-07 6.068 2002-03 66,120 2,456 14,821 121,703 2007-08 6.759 2003-04 66,486 3,777 9,928 141,520 2008-09 6.902 2004-05 83,649 4,722 16,501 148,271 2009-10 6.669 2005-06 135,178 4,778 18,162 257,845 2006-07 397,586 4,732 29,525 259,389 Electricity 2007-08 168,498 2,884 18,335 284,204 2003-04 0.944 2008-09 243,729 4,747 48,117 302,833 2004-05 1.117 2009-10 284,351 3,430 24,909 299,944 2005-06 1.484 1 The NFA collocated with the Serious Fraud Office in its office at 2006-07 1.436 Gray’s Inn Road in 2009-10 and all NFA costs for utilities, are 2007-08 1.433 accounted for in the SFO’s 2009-10 figure. Additionally NFA spent 2008-09 1.722 £2,039 on the procurement of mobile/blackberry and 3G services. 2009-10 2.094 The amount spent by the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, Attorney-General’s Office and HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate for each year is shown Water as follows. The figures prior to 1998-99 are not retained 2003-04 0.162 on the Department’s accounting system, and HM Crown 2004-05 0.163 Prosecution Service Inspectorate was not included within 2005-06 0.224 the Department until mid-2001. 2006-07 0.245 The National Fraud Authority shared premises with 2007-08 0.228 HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate in 2008-09 2008-09 0.237 and all utilities were paid for by the inspectorate. 2009-10 0.166

£000 Gas Telephone 2003-04 0.182 Electricity Water Gas Heating services 2004-05 0.207 1997-98 n/a n/a n/a n/a 2005-06 0.269 1998-99 39.7 4.69 14.1 148.0 2006-07 0.253 1999- 54.1 26.7 16.6 160.9 2007-08 0.202 2000 2008-09 0.330 2000-01 52.5 18.7 18.5 184.0 2009-10 0.234 753W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 754W

RCPO £ Expenditure (£ million)

Utilities 2002-03 0 2003-04 0 2005-06 0.000 2004-05 0 2006-07 0.019 2005-09 0 2007-08 0.110 2006-07 8,700,000 2008-09 0.126 2007-08 0 2009-10 0.006 2008-09 40,625

Telephone services We do not hold figures prior to 1999. 2005-06 0.005 Information on the amount spent by the DCMS 2006-07 0.029 agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and 2007-08 0.017 could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 2008-09 0.088 2009-10 0.049 Departmental Electronic Equipment During 2005-06 RCPO utilities were not reported separately from the main rental payment to HMRC—hence Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for no expenditure is shown for this year. The 2009-10 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much (a) his figures are subject to audit. Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental public bodies spent on televisions in each year since Written Questions: Expenditure 1997. [7501] Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Attorney-General what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of John Penrose: Between financial years 2005-06 and answering Questions 7474, 7498, 7580, 7599, 7618, 7637, 2009-10, the following amounts were spent on televisions 7329, 7348, 7366, 7417, 7436, 7455 and 7310, tabled on at this Department: 8 July 2010 by the hon. Member for Weaver Vale Expenditure on TVs (Graham Evans) for written answer. [8177] £ The Attorney-General: The Treasury produces regular 2005-06 13,231 estimates of the average cost of answering a written 2006-07 2,153 parliamentary question. The estimated figure was last 2007-08 7,023 updated to £154 in January 2010 and Parliament was 2008-09 1,295 notified in a written statement issued by the former 2009-10 1,796 Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah McCarthy-Fry), 1 This amount includes a flat screen television, stand, protective on 20 January 2010, Official Report, column 15WS. screen and case. It is not possible to separate the cost of each item. Note: Estimating the exact costs of producing individual Information prior to 2005-06 is not available. PQ answers is very difficult, although it is fair to say that in the case of most of the above questions the Information on the amount spent by the DCMS average cost has almost certainly been exceeded, and in agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and a few cases may be approaching the upper disproportionate could be provided only at disproportionate cost cost threshold limit of £800. All of these questions requested a large amount of factual information, none Departmental Lighting of which was stored centrally and thus required a coordinated information gathering exercise across the Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Law Officers Departments. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much (a) his Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental public bodies spent on light bulbs in each year since CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT 1997. [7621] Departmental Buildings John Penrose: The Department does not directly purchase Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for light bulbs. The replacement of light bulbs is included Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much (a) his in the Department’s facilities management contract and Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental it is not possible to disaggregate the cost. public bodies spent on office refurbishment in each Information on the amount spent by the DCMS year since 1997. [7351] agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and John Penrose: The Department has spent the following could be provided only at disproportionate cost. on office refurbishments in each of the last 10 years. Departmental Photographs £

1999-2000 243,000 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2000-01 0 Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department 2001-02 0 has spent on official photographs of Ministers since the formation of the present administration. [6427] 755W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 756W

John Penrose: In the first week of the current Historic Buildings: Coventry administration’s tenure, the Department commissioned a photographer to take official photographs of new Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Ministers and a range of additional images for use on for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the DCMS website and in communication materials, at his answer of 21 June 2010, Official Report, column a cost of £600. 16W, on Coventry Market, when he plans to make a We keep photography costs to a minimum and wherever final decision. [7100] possible departmental staff take photographs at no cost, or we use cost-free images. John Penrose [holding answer 12 July 2010]: Iam sorry I was unable to make a decision before the date Departmental Security stated in the previous answer. I will make a decision on this by the end of July. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for National Lottery Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much (a) his Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for public bodies spent on security in each year since 1997. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport to what good [7369] causes National Lottery funding went in the first year after the lottery was established. [8007] John Penrose: The Department has spent the following on security in each year since 2007: John Penrose [holding answer 12 July 2010]: The National Lottery etc. Act 1993 established four good Financial year Spend on security (£) causes: arts, sport, national heritage and charitable 2009-10 357,762 expenditure which each received 20% of lottery proceeds. 2008-09 360,262 In addition to the four good causes a further 20% was 2007-08 413,780 assigned to projects to mark the year 2000 and the beginning of the third millennium. This ceased to receive We do not hold figures for preceding years. income from the national lottery in 2001. Information on the amount spent by the DCMS agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Departmental Travel Departmental Buildings

Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his (a) Communities and Local Government how much (a) Department and (b) its agency and non-departmental his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies public bodies spent on travel for employees in each year and non-departmental public bodies spent on office since 1997. [7420] refurbishment in each year since 1997. [7350]

John Penrose: All official travel is undertaken in Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer accordance with rules set out in the Department’s Travel given to my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Subsistence guidance and is consistent with the and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) on 16 March 2010, Civil Service Management Code. Official Report, columns 819-20W. The following table outlines this department’s expenditure The amounts spent by the Department’s agencies on travel since 1997: and non-departmental government bodies are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Financial Year Total (£) cost.

2009-10 260,269 Departmental Consultants 2008-09 380,209 2007-08 414,290 Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 491,452 Communities and Local Government how much (a) 2005-06 580,749 his Department and (b) its agencies and non-departmental 2004-05 446,211 public bodies spent on consultancy fees in 2009. [5500] 2003-04 429,849 2002-03 444,245 Robert Neill: The Department, its agencies and non- 2001-02 375,368 departmental public bodies spent the following on 2000-01 335,577 consultancy in the financial year 2009-10: 1999-2000 335,068 2009-10 Spend (£) 1998-97 232,160 1997-98 242,937 Communities 36,558,000 Government Office Network 814,713 Information on the amount spent by the DCMS Planning Inspectorate 330,231 agency and arm’s length bodies is held by them and Fire Service College 225,953 could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 757W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 758W

Financial year: 2009-10 2009-10 Spend (£) £

Queen Elizabeth II Conference 96,744 Communities and Local 128,299,000 Centre Government Housing and Communities 4,567,963 Government Office Network 12,515,023 Agency Planning Inspectorate 2,231,068 Ordnance Survey 2,184,819 Fire Service College 498,540 FireBuy 1,412,396 Queen Elizabeth II Conference 378,475 Audit Commission 3,693,060 Centre Lease 45,399 Housing and Communities 5,051,389 Valuation Tribunal Service 180,095 Agency Tenant Service Authority 0 Ordnance Survey 26,038,339 Community Development 634,863 FireBuy 166,892 Foundation Audit Commission 5,069,631 Independent Housing 150,569 LEASE 43,073 Ombudsman Valuation Tribunal Service 399,981 Standards Board 202,577 Tenant Service Authority 2,696,124 London Thames Gateway 7,616,590 Development Corporation Community Development 197,773 Fund Thurrock Thames Gateway 4,755,364 Development Corporation Housing Ombudsman 161,942 West Northamptonshire 3,175,816 Standards Board 652,167 Development Corporation London Thames Gateway 289,226 Total 66,645,151 Development Corporation Thurrock Thames Gateway 459,547 Development Corporation These figures are from the 2009-10 Public Sector West Northamptonshire 306,590 Procurement Expenditure Survey (PSPES) and reflect Development Corporation consultancy spend from the organisation under the definition of consultancy approved by the Office of Government Commerce. Departmental Internet The Government have pledged to reduce consultancy spend across Government. The Department is committed Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for to supporting this and has implemented a consultancy Communities and Local Government how much (a) freeze across the Department, our agencies and non- his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies departmental public bodies to release £5.8 million in and non-departmental public bodies spent on website 2010-11. design in each year since 1997. [7601]

Robert Neill: Details of expenditure on website design Departmental Electronic Equipment are not held centrally and could be supplied only at disproportionate cost. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Lighting Communities and Local Government how much (a) his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on televisions Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) in each year since 1997. [7500] his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on light Robert Neill: Details of expenditure on televisions bulbs in each year since 1997. [7620] are not held centrally and could be supplied only at disproportionate cost. Robert Neill: Details of expenditure on light bulbs are not held centrally and could be supplied only at disproportionate cost. Departmental ICT Departmental Mobile Phones Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies Communities and Local Government pursuant to the and non-departmental public bodies spent on information answer to the hon. Member for West Bromwich East of and communication technology in each year since 1997. 9 June 2010, Official Report, column 173W,on departmental [7331] mobile phones, what the (a) purchase cost of the handset, (b) network provider, (c) type of tariff and Robert Neill: The following table shows total spend (d) name of the supplier is of the BlackBerry device on information and communications technology for the issued to each Minister in his Department. [4011] last financial year for (a) the Department and (b) its agencies and non-departmental bodies. Details of Robert Neill [holding answer 24 June 2010]: Three expenditure in earlier years could be supplied only at Ministers are currently using BlackBerrys of different disproportionate cost. models issued by the Department. Two were provided 759W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 760W under the terms of the Department contract with Orange Departmental Regulation Ltd who supply the devices and provide the network and are Model 8310. The third device—Model 9700 is Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for currently on trial—cost £314 (excluding VAT). Each of Communities and Local Government which of his the three devices has a tariff of £14.50 (excluding VAT) Department’s regulations are under review; and if he each month. All are compliant with the Government’s will make a statement. [7145] mandatory security settings. Grant Shapps: The Department is reviewing all regulation Departmental Official Hospitality in the pipeline for implementation inherited from the previous Administration. This is in line with the cross Government action plan for reducing regulation launched Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) Business Innovation and Skills on 3 June. his Department and its predecessors and (b) its I am also reviewing the secondary legislation, statutory agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on guidance and regulation sponsored by this Department hospitality in each year since 1997. [7438] already on the statute. The direction of travel on the first 11 pieces of secondary legislation was published on Robert Neill: The following table shows the amounts 7 July 2010 and is available on the Department’s website spent on food by (a) the Department and (b) its at: agencies and non-departmental public bodies. These http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/localgovernment/ figures are taken from the Public Sector Procurement doc/1633576.doc Expenditure Survey (PSPES). There is no category for Copies have also been placed in the Library of the hospitality within the survey. Figures for earlier years House. could be supplied only at disproportionate cost.

2009-10 £ Departmental Security Communities and Local 106,616 Government Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Office Network 190,691 Communities and Local Government how much (a) Planning Inspectorate 52,850 his Department and its predecessors and (b) its Fire Service College 0 agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on Queen Elizabeth II Conference 0 [7368] Centre security in each year since 1997. Housing and Communities 84,938 Agency Robert Neill: The following table shows total spend Ordnance Survey 0 on security for the last financial year for (a) the Department FireBuy 1,359 and (b) its agencies and non-departmental bodies. Details Audit Commission 104,852 of expenditure in earlier years could be supplied only at LEASE 745 disproportionate cost. Valuation Tribunal Service 19,740 2009-10 Tenant Service Authority 0 £ Community Development Fund 0 Communities and Local 850,890 Housing Ombudsman 2,942 Government Standards Board 0 Government Office Network 36,117 London Thames Gateway 10,725 Planning Inspectorate 10,519 Development Corporation Fire Service College 1,905 Thurrock Thames Gateway 2,016 Development Corporation Queen Elizabeth II Conference 594,095 Centre West Northamptonshire 0 Development Corporation Housing and Communities 4,265,192 Agency Ordnance Survey 0 FireBuy 0 Departmental Public Expenditure Audit Commission 0 LEASE 179 Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Valuation Tribunal Service 3,918 Communities and Local Government whether equality Tenant Service Authority 0 impact assessments will be used in determining the Community Development Fund 3,459 areas of his Department’s budget in respect of which Housing Ombudsman 1,740 spending will be reduced. [8339] Standards Board 5,287 London Thames Gateway 0 Robert Neill: Yes, we will be following spending review Development Corporation guidance issued by the Government Equalities Office to Thurrock Thames Gateway 22,829 ensure that decisions give due consideration to any Development Corporation West Northamptonshire 0 disproportionate impact on women, disabled people Development Corporation and ethnic minorities. 761W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 762W

Departmental Speeches 2009-10 Total (£) Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Community Development Fund 68,211 Communities and Local Government which (a) (i) civil Housing Ombudsman 11,733 servants and (ii) special advisers in his Department and Standards Board 18,004 (b) other individuals are employed to write speeches London Thames Gateway 32,868 for each Minister in his Department. [7302] Development Corporation Thurrock Thames Gateway 23,441 Robert Neill: There is one dedicated full-time member Development Corporation of departmental staff employed to write speeches. A West Northamptonshire 43,870 Development Corporation small number of other officials periodically draft content for ministerial speeches. Total 1,228,481 For context, three dedicated speechwriters were employed between 2004-09 and two dedicated speechwriters were Departmental Training employed in 2009-10. No special advisers are employed by the Department Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for specifically to write speeches. Communities and Local Government how much (a) (b) Departmental Stationery his Department and its predecessors and its agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on employee awaydays in each year since 1997. [7312] Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) Robert Neill: Details of employee away days are not his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies held centrally and could be obtained only at and non-departmental public bodies spent on stationery disproportionate cost. in each year since 1997. [7457] Fire Services Robert Neill: The following table shows the total spent on stationery (eg office supplies and consumables) Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for for the last financial year for (a) the Department and Communities and Local Government (1) what his policy (b) its agencies and non-departmental bodies. Details is on the future of the FiReControl project; [7914] of expenditure in earlier years could be supplied only at (2) what steps he has put in place to ensure that the disproportionate cost. FiReControl project is delivered on time and on budget. [7915] 2009-10 Total (£)

Communities and Local 480,180 Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Government gave on 17 June 2010, Official Report, column 526W, to Government Office Network 162,784 the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham). Planning Inspectorate 159,495 Fire Service College 25,696 Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Queen Elizabeth II Conference 0 Communities and Local Government how many Centre people were rescued from fires by each fire and rescue Housing and Communities 30,482 service in England between April 2009 and March Agency 2010; and how many were (a) injured or (b) Ordnance Survey 9,736 unharmed. [7916] FireBuy 7,953 Audit Commission 0 Robert Neill: The numbers of people who were rescued LEASE 6,037 from fires by each Fire and Rescue Service in England Valuation Tribunal Service 36,710 are shown in the table for the six-month period April to Tenant Service Authority 111,280 September 2009. Data to March 2010 will be available by the end of August.

Rescued, Rescued, injured precautionary and went to Rescued, first aid check Rescued (rescue hospital given at scene recommended without injury) Total

Avon 6 2 02634 Bedfordshire 9 0 0 16 25 Buckinghamshire n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cambridgeshire 2 1 1 18 22 Cheshire 4 1 0 9 14 Cleveland 7 2 4 9 22 Cornwall 2 1 0 10 13 Cumbria 5 1 0 13 19 Derbyshire 4 0 1 9 14 Devon and Somerset 8 4 1 28 41 763W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 764W

Rescued, Rescued, injured precautionary and went to Rescued, first aid check Rescued (rescue hospital given at scene recommended without injury) Total

Dorset 2 3 0 8 13 Durham 3 1 0 7 11 East Sussex 1 1 1 13 16 Essex 3 4 0 8 15 Gloucestershire 4 1 0 8 13 Greater Manchester 10 8 2 12 32 Hampshire 9 10 6 28 53 Hereford and Worcester 1 0078 Hertfordshire 4 3 2 8 17 Humberside 13 2 5 12 32 Isle of Wight 1 0023 Kent 13 0 6 18 37 Lancashire 15 6 3 14 38 Leicestershire 8 0 0 12 20 Lincolnshire 20619 London 75 20 13 189 297 Merseyside 12 2 0 22 36 Norfolk 8 3 11325 North Yorkshire 4 2 2 2 10 Northamptonshire 10056 Northumberland 1 0023 Nottinghamshire 9 5 8 24 46 Oxfordshire 2 3 0 8 13 Royal Berkshire 3 1 2 20 26 Shropshire 3 1 0 8 12 South Yorkshire 8 0 2 36 46 Staffordshire 8 3 0 18 29 Suffolk 2 1 1 9 13 Surrey 2 1 0 12 15 Tyne and Wear 15 6 9 21 51 Warwickshire 6 1 0 6 13 West Midlands 11 11 13 22 57 West Sussex 4 2 4 2 12 West Yorkshire 24 6 0 35 65 Wiltshire 4 0 1 5 10 England (excluding Buckinghamshire) 338 119 94 755 1,306 n/a = not available Notes: 1. Where a person having no obvious injury is taken to hospital for a precautionary check or advised to seek medical advice, whether or not they actually go. 2. Data for Greater Manchester available incomplete.

Fire Services: Finance England was from (a) central Government grant, (b) council tax and (c) other sources in the most recent John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for year for which figures are available. [8369] Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the effect on funding for fire and rescue services of the two-year freeze of council tax rates; and if he will make a statement. [8368] Robert Neill: The proportion of the income from central government grant, council tax and other sources Robert Neill: The Government intend to freeze council for each Fire and Rescue Authority in England in tax in England for one year, and seek to freeze it for a 2008-09 is in the following tabled. further year, in partnership with local government. Authorities which choose to freeze or reduce their council Percentage tax in 2011-12 will receive a grant, additional to the Central formula grant, which is equivalent to a council tax government Other increase up to a specified level. Further details will be grant Council tax sources announced in due course. Greater Manchester 64.4 34.0 1.6 Fire and CD John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority Communities and Local Government what proportion Merseyside Fire and 62.0 34.4 3.7 of the income of each fire and rescue authority in CD Authority 765W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 766W

Percentage Percentage Central Central government Other government Other grant Council tax sources grant Council tax sources

South Yorkshire Fire 60.8 36.1 3.0 Staffordshire 43.4 55.0 1.6 and CD Authority Combined Fire Tyne and Wear Fire 59.4 35.4 5.1 Authority and CD Authority Wiltshire Combined 39.9 58.5 1.6 Fire Authority West Midlands Fire 66.6 29.7 3.7 and CD Authority Source: Communities and Local Government revenue outturn (RO) returns West Yorkshire Fire 62.9 36.3 0.7 and capital outturn (CO) returns and CD Authority Avon Combined Fire 56.0 42.5 1.5 Figures for the remaining 16 authorities responsible Authority for fire services are not available as their revenue support Bedfordshire 40.4 57.2 2.4 grant is unhypothecated and it is therefore not possible Combined Fire to identify the fire service elements. Authority Berkshire Combined 47.0 51.8 1.2 The definition of central government grant used here Fire Authority is the sum of formula grant (revenue support grant and Buckinghamshire 41.5 53.3 5.2 redistributed non-domestic rates), specific grants inside Combined Fire Aggregate External Finance (AEF) (i.e. revenue grants Authority paid for council’s core services), specific and special Cambridgeshire 47.5 51.0 1.5 revenue grants outside AEF (i.e. where funding is not Combined Fire for authorities’ core services, but is passed to a third Authority party, for example, rent allowances and rebates), area Cheshire Combined 43.1 55.4 1.5 based grant (ABG) and expenditure financed by capital Fire Authority grants from central government. Cleveland Combined 67.7 30.2 2.1 Fire Authority The definition of council tax used here includes Derbyshire 46.8 51.5 1.7 council taxes financed from council tax benefit grant Combined Fire but excludes council taxes financed from local authority Authority contributions to council tax benefit. Devon and Somerset 47.8 48.6 3.6 ’Other sources’ is defined as sum of interest and Combined Fire Authority investment income - external receipts and dividends, sales fees and charges and in-year capital receipts. This Dorset Combined 37.7 50.0 12.3 Fire Authority excludes ’other income’ as reported by local authorities on the Revenue Outturn (RO) returns as this includes Durham Combined 47.0 52.8 0.3 Fire Authority internal recharges, which distorts the comparative figures on income. East Sussex 37.6 61.2 1.1 Combined Fire Authority Essex Combined Fire 44.2 54.2 1.6 Fire Services: Standards Authority Hampshire 44.2 53.8 2.1 Combined Fire John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority Communities and Local Government what his policy is Hereford and 37.5 59.0 3.5 on national standards for fire cover in England; and if Worcester Combined he will make a statement. [8370] Fire Authority Humberside 53.9 44.1 1.9 Combined Fire Robert Neill: The Government have no plans to restore Authority national standards of fire cover in England. Kent Combined Fire 42.1 52.9 5.0 The Government are committed to enabling local Authority authorities and local communities to make appropriate Lancashire 53.8 44.3 1.9 decisions at the local level. Fire and rescue authorities Combined Fire are required to produce and to regularly update an Authority Integrated Risk Management Plan (IRMP) which identifies Leicestershire 55.0 43.9 1.1 and assesses local need and sets out plans to mitigate Combined Fire effectively both existing and potential risks to communities. Authority North Yorkshire 43.7 55.4 0.8 Each fire and rescue authority’s IRMP enables that Combined Fire individual local authority to decide how best to provide Authority fire and rescue-related services, including prevention Nottinghamshire 49.0 45.0 6.0 and protection, as well as response, with resources Combined Fire being allocated on the basis of the evaluation of risk Authority and where the risks are greatest. Shropshire 37.1 59.6 3.3 Combined Fire Local requirements are thus determined by local Authority people according to local circumstances. 767W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 768W

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Communities and Local Government (1) what steps he guidance his Department has issued to fire authorities is taking to ensure that those most in need are not on (a) firefighter training, (b) recording non-fatal affected by the effects of the reduction in his Department’s injuries and (c) equipment procurement. [8371] expenditure announced in the written ministerial statement on 10 June 2010, Official Report, columns 15-18WS, on Robert Neill: The most recent guidance issued for the local government savings package; and if he will these areas by my Department to Fire and Rescue make a statement; [8185] Authorities is as follows: training guidance relating to (2) pursuant to the written ministerial statement of breathing apparatus published on 23 March 2009 and a 10 June 2010, Official Report, columns 16-17WS, on training package on timber framed buildings, issued as the local government savings package, if he will part of a Fire and Rescue Service Circular (FRS 38/2009) undertake an impact assessment of the in-year on the 1 July 2009; and the National Procurement reduction to grant funding for local authorities. [8243] Strategy for the Fire and Rescue Service in England 2009-12, published on 7 August 2009. No guidance on Robert Neill: We have asked local authorities to make recording non-fatal injuries has been issued since 2007. a contribution of £1.166 billion to the £6.2 billion of cross-Government savings in 2010-11 to enable the Housing: Planning Government to take immediate action to start to tackle the fiscal deficit. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for State made clear in his written ministerial statement Communities and Local Government whether his that we have taken action to provide the flexibility Department has put in place sanctions for councils that needed to allow local authorities the freedom to make do not assess levels of housing need in their area; and their own decisions about where savings are found whether his Department has established incentives for without impacting on essential frontline services. We councils to undertake such an assessment. [7929] have adopted a fair approach to the reductions in grants and funding streams and have limited the amount individual Grant Shapps: Local planning authorities are best authorities lose. The impact on their area of the reductions placed to determine the right level of local housing in grants this year will be for local authorities to decide. provision for their area. They should justify their decisions on local housing need and defend them during the Non-domestic Rates development plan examination process in line with the policy set out in “Planning Policy Statement 3: Housing”. Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for We are committed to increasing housing supply and Communities and Local Government pursuant to the seeing more of the homes that people want, in the observations by the then Secretary of State of 7 April places that people want them, to meet Britain’s housing 2010 on the petition of persons concerned by the need. The coalition agreement set out our clear intention increase in business rates, Official Report, columns to provide incentives for local authorities to deliver 42-3P, what the Government’s policy is on increases to sustainable development, including new homes and business. business rates; and if he will make a statement. [8499] More details will be announced shortly. Robert Neill: Increases in business rates bills are Local Government Executive capped each year by the RPI inflation rate. In addition, we are doubling the level of small business rate relief in England for one year, from 1 October 2010. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what plans he has to allocate planning functions to the elected executive of local authorities; and if he will make a EDUCATION statement. [7114] Academies: GCSE Robert Neill: At present we have no specific plans to make any changes to how local planning authorities Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for divide the exercising of their planning functions between Education what proportion of students at each academy elected members and officers. These are matters for school obtained five GCSEs at grade A* to C in each each local planning authority to decide, and to set out year since it was established; and what the equivalent in their individual schemes of delegation. figure was in respect of each academy school’s predecessor school in each year between 1995 and its reconstitution Local Government Finance as an academy school. [4909]

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The information requested has been placed Communities and Local Government what timetable in the Libraries. he has set for the review of local government finance. [8012] Children: Protection

Robert Neill: The Communities and Local Government Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Structural Reform Plan, published on 8 July 2010, sets a what representations he has received from childcare start date of summer 2011 for the local government professionals on his proposal to publish serious case resource review. The review will end in 2012. reviews. [1678] 769W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 770W

Tim Loughton: The coalition programme for government Mr Gibb: We are currently considering our priorities launched on 20 May confirmed the Government’s for the national curriculum, including what subjects it commitment to publishing serious case reviews with should cover. We will be announcing our plans in due identifying details removed. The Government’s aim in course. doing so is to restore public confidence and improve transparency in the child protection system, and to Pupils: Health ensure that the context in which the events occurred is properly understood so relevant lessons are learned and Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for applied as widely as possible. Education if he will take steps to encourage schools to According to our records, by 15 June, the Secretary allow the wearing of medical bracelets by pupils of State had received one representation from the Victoria diagnosed with (a) diabetes and (b) allergies; and if he Climbié Foundation supporting this commitment. Since will make a statement. [5360] becoming Secretary of State, he has received no other representations on this subject from child care professionals. Sarah Teather: It is for governing bodies to set their own policies on managing the medical conditions of Departmental Property their pupils. We trust schools to make sensible arrangements where pupils and parents have requested that they or Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Education their child be allowed to wear medical bracelets. what property has been recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen from the Department in the last 12 months; and Schools: Admissions what estimate has been made of the cost of the replacement of that property. [5970] Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the number of Tim Loughton: A breakdown of reported lost or pupils (a) with and (b) without special educational stolen property from the Department for Education in needs expected to enter year (i) one, (ii) seven and (iii) the last 12 month period 1 July 2009 to 30 June 2010 is 12 in each local authority area (A) in 2011-12 and (B) as follows: 2014-15; how many (1) mainstream and (2) special school places were available in each of those year Total groups in each local authority area on the latest date estimated cost of for which figures are available; and if he will make a replacement statement. [4911] Lost (a) Stolen (b) Total (£) Sarah Teather: The responsibility for planning future Laptops 1 6 7 6692.00 educational provision in a local authority area rests Blackberry 15 6 21 1239.00 with each individual local authority. However the Memory 8 — 8 1088.00 Department has made national projections and these stick are summarised in the following table. Staff passes 76 12 88 454.96 Total 9473.96 Mainstream state funded and special schools: full time and part time pupils with special educational needs: Coverage: England— Position at January Free Schools Actual Projections 2010 2012 2015 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what criteria will be used by the New Schools Network Pupils aged five and rising in deciding which applications for free schools merit five: Total number of pupils 765,000 803,000 851,000 consideration by his Department. [5564] Number of pupils without 643,000 675,000 715,000 SEN Mr Gibb: The Department for Education is reviewing Number of pupils with SEN; 122,000 128,000 136,000 all proposals on receipt to decide whether each section with or without Statements of each proposal form is sufficiently developed and Percentage of pupils with 15.9 15.9 15.9 substantial enough to make full assessment worthwhile. SEN The New Schools Network are helping the Department Pupils aged 11: at this stage, providing advice based on their work with Total number of pupils 563,000 542,000 548,000 proposers. The full assessment process, conducted by Number of pupils without 417,000 402,000 406,000 the Department, will look at whether a proposal form SEN could lead to an acceptable business case and plan for a Number of pupils with SEN; 146,000 140,000 142,000 school that Ministers will accept based on the criteria with or without Statements published at: Percentage of pupils with 25.9 25.9 25.9 http://www.education.gov.uk/freeschools/frequently-asked- SEN questions#r1 Pupils aged 16: GCSE: Languages Total number of pupils 222,000 — — Number of pupils without 197,000 — — SEN Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of pupils with SEN; 26,000 — — Education what steps he plans to take to increase the with or without Statements number of secondary school pupils studying for a GCSE Percentage of pupils with 11.6 — — in a modern European language. [6929] SEN 771W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 772W

Mainstream state funded and special schools: full time and part time Schools: Mental Health Services pupils with special educational needs: Coverage: England— Position at January Actual Projections Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2010 2012 2015 what plans he has for state-funded schools to be involved in commissioning child and adolescent mental health Pupils of all ages: ——services at a local level. [5229] Total number of pupils 7,506,000 — — Number of pupils without 5,881,000 — — Sarah Teather: When health and local authority SEN commissioners are planning services to meet the mental Number of pupils with SEN; 1,625,000 — — health needs of children and young people locally they with or without Statements will want to consider the right way to engage with Percentage of pupils with 21.6 — — schools so as to get the best possible services to children SEN and families. Schools are also able to use their own Notes: budgets to provide services to meet the needs of their 1. Actual numbers for January 2010 are sourced from data collected pupils, including services to support pupil’s emotional via the School Census. 2. Projections are derived by applying the proportion of pupils with wellbeing and mental health. SEN in 2010 to future years’ pupil projections. The national Targeted Mental Health in Schools 3. Includes pupils with sole and dual registration. (TaMHS) programme was developed to test the effectiveness 4. No pupil projections are available after 2011 for post 16 year-olds. 5. Mainstream state funded schools comprise maintained nursery, of evidence-based mental health support in schools for primary, secondary and special schools; academies and city children, young people, and their families. Schools delivering technology colleges. TaMHS commission a range of service procured from 6. Rising 5s are those pupils aged four at the previous 31 August voluntary (as well as statutory) sector providers to meet who become five by 31 December. the particular needs of their pupils (e.g. counselling 7. Figures are rounded to the nearest thousand for pupils and support for children struggling to cope following family percentages to one decimal place. breakdown or bereavement). For specialist mental health support for more severe problems, schools may wish to Schools: Anti-Semitism refer pupils to local specialist CAMHS. The learning from TaMHS on effective commissioning of emotional wellbeing and mental health support and Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education joint working with CAMHS is being shared across what steps he is taking to prevent bullying and intimidation schools this year. of Jewish children in schools; what recent discussions he has had with representatives of the Jewish community While programmes such as TaMHS have been testing what works in developing school based mental health on this matter; and if he will make a statement. [5745] support, any decision about whether to commission these services remains at the school’s discretion. Mr Gibb: The coalition Government have made tackling all forms of bullying, particularly bullying motivated by Schools: Transport prejudice, one of its top priorities. It is not acceptable for a child to be victimised because of their race or Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for religion. Education whether his Department collects data on the The Government will bring forward measures to average time taken by children in year (a) one, (b) strengthen the authority of teachers to enforce discipline seven and (c) 12 in each local authority to travel to and promote good behaviour. The Government support school; and if he will make a statement. [4913] head teachers in taking a zero-tolerance approach to bad behaviour and bullying. Mr Gibb: The Department collects data about pupil’s usual modes of travel in the School Census but it does The Secretary of State is due to meet the President of not collect information about the average time taken by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Chief children to travel to school. Rabbi on 15 July and the Community Security Trust on 22 July. These discussions will cover a range of issues Schools: Visits including the safety and security of Jewish pupils. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will bring forward proposals to require Schools: Medicine the Independent Schools Inspectorate to publish the reports of its unannounced visits to schools and to Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Education make such reports available on its website. [6503] when the revised guidance on managing medicines in schools will be published; and by what mechanisms that Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 July 2010]: ISI rarely makes unannounced visits, as these are normally made guidance will be publicised to teachers. [6729] in the light of information which suggests that some aspects of the independent schools standards are not Mr Gibb: We are currently considering our approach being met. Reports from unannounced visits are not to managing medicines in schools, and in particular automatically published as they may contain sensitive what guidance would be helpful for schools. We will information which could identify the complainant or provide more information on this when we are in a the identity of members of staff or pupils. Any failures position to do so. identified would be followed up with the school and if 773W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 774W the inspection confirmed there were serious failures, a Special Educational Needs: Pupil Exclusions full inspection would take place leading to a published report. Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many (a) statemented and (b) non- Science: Education statemented pupils with special educational needs have been given (i) a fixed period exclusion and (ii) a permanent David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for exclusion in each year since 1997. [5449] Education what plans his Department has to ensure that school science departments work together with Sarah Teather: Data on the special educational needs high technology employers in their areas. [5873] status of excluded pupils is collected at the time of exclusion. Information relating to the number of permanent Mr Gibb: The Government recognise the benefits to exclusions by SEN status since 1997 is published in pupils’ learning and future career aspirations that table 7 of the Statistical First Release published at partnerships between school science departments and high technology employers can have. But it must be for http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000860/ index.shtml schools to decide how they develop those relationships as they are best placed to know what is best for their Data on fixed period exclusions was collected for the pupils. first time in 2003/04; in 2005/06 it was collected for secondary schools only. The available information relating There are Government supported programmes in to the number of fixed period exclusions (not the number place with which schools can choose to engage and of pupils) by SEN status between 2003/04 and 2006/07 which will help develop this type of relationship. The is published in table 8 of the Statistical First Release Department for Business, Innovation and Skills currently published at supports the Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths Network (STEMNET), which links schools with http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000793/ enhancement and enrichment resources for STEM subjects. index.shtml STEMNET helps forge links between schools and local The number of fixed period exclusions by SEN status employers with the aim of improving and enhancing for 2007/08 is available in table 8a of the Statistical First young people’s knowledge and experience of scientific Release published at: subjects and careers. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000860/ index.shtml Special Educational Needs Some analysis has been carried out for 2007/08 on the number of excluded pupil enrolments, as shown in the Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for table. A pupil’s SEN status can change between periods Education how many statements on special educational of exclusion; therefore data relating to the SEN status need each local authority area has issued in each year of excluded pupil enrolments has been based on their since 1997. [5709] SEN status at the time of their most recent fixed period or permanent exclusion. To carry out this analysis for Sarah Teather: Information on new statements of further years would incur disproportionate cost. special educational needs issued by local authorities Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 since 1997 is published on the DFE Research and number and percentage of pupil enrolments receiving one or more fixed Statistics Gateway in the following publications: period exclusions or a permanent exclusion by special educational needs (SEN) England, 2007/08 (estimates)4 For 1993-98, Table 9 of the Statistical Bulletin “Special Educational One or more fixed period Permanent exclusion4 Needs in England: January 1999”, available at: exclusions http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000124/b12- Number of Percentage Number of Percentage 1999.pdf pupil of school pupil of school 5 5 For 1999-2001, Table 11 of the Statistical Bulletin “Special enrolments population enrolments population Educational Needs In England: January 2002”, available at: Statement 17,970 8.42 700 0.33 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000367/ of SEN6 index.shtml SEN 96,290 7.26 5,080 0.38 without a For, 2002-04, Table 16 of the Statistical First Release “Special 6 Educational Needs in England January 2005”, available at: statement 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000584/ 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies (including all-through index.shtml academies). For 2005-08, Table 19 of the Statistical First Release “DCSF: 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes Special Educational Needs in England: January 2009”, available general hospital schools. at: 4 Figures relating to permanent exclusions are estimates based on incomplete pupil-level data. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000852/ 5 The number of pupil enrolments who received exclusions expressed index.shtml as a percentage of the number (headcount) of all pupils (excluding Data on the number of new statements issued for the 2009 dually registered pupils) by SEN, in January 2008. 6 calendar year at local authority level is due to be published on 21 Pupils’ SEN status at the time of their most recent fixed period or July 2010 as an addition to the Statistical First Release “Special permanent exclusion. Educational Needs in England: January 2010” at: Note: Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000939/ Source: index.shtml School Census 775W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 776W

Special Educational Needs: Pupil Referral Units Mr O’Brien: The Secretary of State for International Development has recently commissioned a review of Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department for International Development’s aid Education how many (a) statemented and (b) non- programmes to determine how we can achieve better statemented pupils with special educational needs have value for money for the taxpayer and accelerate progress been placed in (i) pupil referral units and (ii) alternative towards the millennium development goals. Measures provision in each year since 1997. [5451] to address the effects of climate change will be considered as part of this review. Sarah Teather: The information requested on pupils with special educational needs in pupil referral units Brazil: Cattle can be found in the following publications, on the DFE Research and Statistics Gateway: Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for For 2006-10, data can be found in tables 1a and 1b of International Development what recent representations the Statistical First Release “Special Educational Needs he has made to the Government of Brazil on the in England: January 2010” at: sustainability of cattle ranching in that country. [7059] http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000939/ index.shtml Mr Andrew Mitchell: I have made no representations For 2001-05, data can be found in tables 1a and 1b of to date. The British embassy in Brasilia and Department the Statistical First Release “Special Educational Needs for International Development staff hold regular discussions in England January 2005” at: with the Brazilian Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000584/ Our aim is to support the Ministry’s plans to make index.shtml agriculture, including cattle ranching, more sustainable. For 1997-2000, data can be found in tables 1a and 1b The Ministry plans to reduce pressure on deforestation of the “Special Educational Needs In England: January and reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the cattle 2000” (Bulletin) at: sector through innovative land-management practices, http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000207/ smarter fertiliser use and increased pasture yields. index.shtml Information on pupils with special educational needs Centres for Disease Control in alternative provision other than pupil referral units is only available from 2008. Data can be found in table C Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Statistical First Release “Schools, Pupils and International Development what plans he has for the their Characteristics: January 2010” at: future funding of Centres for Disease Control. [7004] http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000925/ index.shtml Mr O’Brien: As a UK Government Department, we Information for pupils with special educational needs do not provide funding to the Centers for Disease in alternative provision for 2008 and 2009 is shown in Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, United States. the table. However, we work closely with them on a number of Alternative provision: Pupils with and without statements of special policy issues including polio eradication, malaria and educational needs (SEN)1 January 2008 and 2009 England tuberculosis. 2008 2009

Pupils on roll 20,900 21,680 Common Agricultural Policy

Pupils with statements 13,400 14,560 Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage2 64.1 67.2 International Development what discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on amending the Common Pupils with SEN without 1,680 1,760 Agricultural Policy to increase long-term stability in statements food production. [7055] Percentage2 8.0 8.1 1 Includes sole or dual registered pupils. Mr O’Brien: The Secretary of State has not yet had 2 The number of pupils with and without statements expressed as a proportion of the number of pupils on roll. the chance to discuss this important issue with his EU Note: counterparts. Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: Alternative Provision Census Departmental Speeches

Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT International Development which (a) (i) civil servants and (ii) special advisers in his Department and (b) Bilateral Aid: Climate Change other individuals are employed to write speeches for each Minister in his Department. [7399] Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether his review of bilateral Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International aid programmes will consider which aid instruments are Development (DFID) employs one civil servant to write most effective at addressing climate change. [7492] speeches for Ministers. 777W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 778W

Developing Countries: Climate Change and childbirth. This will have a significant positive impact on families, economies and societies, as well the Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for health and empowerment of women themselves. International Development pursuant to the answer of 1 The plan will clearly acknowledge the links between July 2010, Official Report, column 625W, on developing maternal health and child health. Nearly 40% of deaths countries: climate change, what recent assessment he of children under five occur in the first month of life, up has made of the merits of the TradeCom programme. to 45% in the first 24-hours. Preventing unintended [7194] pregnancies and ensuring pregnancy and child birth is safe for all mothers and babies make a vital contribution Mr O’Brien: The European Commission are currently to child health. Recent DFID-supported evidence from conducting a formal evaluation of the TradeCom Bangladesh shows that a child who has lost their mother programme. The Department for International has a significantly lower chance of surviving to 10 years Development (DFID) will consider this alongside old. evaluations of other programmes when deciding upon future support to developing countries in trade and Developing Countries: Rivers climate negotiations. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Developing Countries: Forests International Development what recent steps his Department has taken to facilitate improvements in the levels of the sanitation and sustainability of major Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for rivers in the developing world. [7057] International Development how much funding his Department has allocated in respect of (a) forestry Mr O’Brien: The Department for International programmes and (b) reforestation projects in developing Development (DFID) supports actions at country, regional countries in each of the last 10 years; and what proportion and global levels to improve the overall management of of the UKs (i) international development budget and water resources, which includes measures to manage (ii) bilateral aid programme it represented in each case pollution and maintain water quality in rivers. in each such year. [8342] Better water management supports economic growth, increases resilience to climate change and reduces the Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for international potential for conflict. In developing countries, DFID is Development’s bilateral expenditure on forestry supporting water resource programmes in Sudan (Darfur), programmes and the proportion this expenditure represents Ethiopia, Afghanistan and Bangladesh. DFID also of total UK development aid and DFID’s bilateral aid supports improved regional water management in the programme, in each of the last 10 years, are in the Nile Basin, South Asia and Southern Africa. following table. We are unable to separate spending on reforestation and funding on broader forest development Overseas Aid: Health Services or forest policy without incurring disproportionate cost. Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for DFID bilateral % of total UK % of total DFID forestry (£000) development aid bilateral International Development when he plans to publish his Department’s 2009 health portfolio review. [7192] 1999- 25,211 0.8 1.9 2000 Mr O’Brien: The Department for international 2000-01 23,373 0.7 1.7 Development’s health portfolio review will be published 2001-02 25,831 0.7 1.7 later this year and will be available at: 2002-03 19,985 0.5 1.1 www.dfid.gov.uk 2003-04 20,074 0.4 1.0 2004-05 15,778 0.3 0.7 Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 1,518 0.2 0.6 International Development how many of his Department’s 2006-07 15,620 0.2 0.6 country programmes had health advisors in (a) 2007-08, 2007-08 7,352 0.1 0.2 (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10. [7193] 2008-09 21,881 0.3 0.7 Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Development (DFID) had 20 country programmes with Developing Countries: Maternity Services health advisors in 2007-08 and 2008-09 and 19 in 2009-10. Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Pakistan: Overseas Aid International Development when he plans to publish his Department’s Maternal Health Strategy; and how Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for that strategy will acknowledge the relationship between International Development what support his Department maternal health and child health. [7536] is giving to renewable energy projects in Pakistan. [7385]

Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Mr O’Brien: Renewable energy has not been a priority Development (DFID) will publish its business plan for for the Department for International Development’s reproductive, maternal and newborn health by the end (DFID’s) programme in Pakistan. However, DFID has of 2010. It seeks to increase women’s ability to choose supported preparations of an implementation plan for when, and how often, they have a child, and to increase the Pakistan Domestic Biogas Programme, which aims the survival of women and babies during pregnancy to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emissions per 779W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 780W household by 2 tonnes annually. DFID also provided As part of Dame Carol Black’s review of the health technical advice to the Chief Minister of the Punjab on of Britain’s working age population “Working for a renewable energy. healthier tomorrow”, 11 Fit for Work Service pilots will The Secretary of State has recently commissioned a integrate with existing health and employment-related review of DFID’s aid programmes to determine how structures and services, such as Jobcentre Plus and we can achieve better value for money for the taxpayer relevant local partnerships to join up appropriate support and accelerate progress towards the Millennium for sickness absentees. The pilots will evaluate the benefits Development Goals. DFID’s programme in Pakistan is of case managed, multi-disciplinary support for individuals being reviewed as part this process. in the early stages of sickness absence to ensure an early return to work and prevent long-term unemployment. Yemen: Overseas Aid As musculoskeletal disorders are one of the most common causes of sickness absence, appropriate support Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for for these will be an integral part of the Fit for Work International Development what assessment his Service pilots and those with rheumatoid arthritis will Department has made of the relative priority of Yemen receive appropriate and timely treatment. relative to his Department’s other funding priority The Department has not made specific assessments countries. [7122] of the performance of the national health service in delivering services to people with rheumatoid arthritis Mr O’Brien: I refer the hon. Member to the answer or of the cost effectiveness of the provision of such provided by my right hon. Friend the Member for services in relation to the economic productivity of Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan) on 8 July, Official people with rheumatoid arthritis. Report, column 421W, on Yemen: Overseas Aid. Autism: Children

Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Health if he will commission research to inform the proposed National Institute for Health and Clinical Agency Nurses: Manpower Excellence guidelines on managing autism in children, with particular reference to effective interventions for children with autism and co-occurring mental health Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health problems. [8376] what recent estimate he has made of the number of agency nurses working in (a) Essex and (b) England. Mr Burstow: The National Institute for Health and [7200] Clinical Excellence is currently developing a clinical guideline on autism spectrum disorders in children and Anne Milton: The Department does not collect centrally young people. This will be based on a thorough assessment the number of agency staff employed in the national of the available evidence. health service in England. The National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and the Medical Research Council already fund a range how many nurses employed by the NHS are also of research relating to autism. A study currently funded employed as agency staff. [7201] by NIHR on effective therapy for anxiety in young people with autism spectrum disorder is expected to Anne Milton: The 2009 NHS Workforce Census shows complete in September 2011. that there are 395,229 qualified nursing, midwifery and Blood: Cancer health visiting staff (excl. general practice nurses of which there are 21,935) employed in the national health service in England. Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 30 November The Department does not collect centrally whether 2009, Official Report, column 527W, on blood: cancer, nurses who are employed by the NHS also work as what progress has been made by those cancer networks agency staff. which had not implemented all the key recommendations made by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Arthritis: Health Services Excellence in its guidance on improving outcomes in haematological cancers guidance; whether the Government Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State is on track to meet the target of full implementation of for Health whether he has made a recent assessment of the guidance by December 2010; and if he will make a the (a) performance of the NHS in delivering health statement. [7752] services to people with rheumatoid arthritis and (b) cost-effectiveness of the provision of such services in Mr Burstow: All 28 cancer networks in England have relation to the levels of economic productivity of such implemented the clinical service element of the National people; and if he will make a statement. [8366] Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence’s guidance on improving outcomes in haematological cancers. Issues Mr Burstow: It is the responsibility of commissioners remain about implementation of the guidance on setting of health care services to deliver services which are up haemato-pathology services across all the cancer closely matched to the needs of their populations. This networks. The National Cancer Action Team continues includes supporting people with rheumatoid arthritis to to work with cancer networks to support implementation enter, return to and remain in employment. of the guidance across the country by the end of December 781W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 782W

2010, but it is possible that a minority of networks will During an inspection visit, CQC will ask providers to not be in a position to commence activity in this area demonstrate how they ensure that residents are enabled until early 2011. to take appropriate exercise or participate in suitable activities and will ask residents themselves for their Cancer: Drugs rating of these activities. UK Older People’s Day—to take place on 1 October Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Health this year, to coincide with the United Nation’s International what his most recent assessment is of progress on the Day for Older People. This will be the fourth year the proposed Cancer Drugs Fund; and if he will make a day has been celebrated in the UK. For 2010, Older statement. [7175] People’s Day will have a new theme—“Getting and staying active in later life.”Encouraging people to prepare Mr Simon Burns: We are working towards implementing well for and enjoy a positive later life benefits each of us the Cancer Drugs Fund from April 2011. We plan to set individually and society as a whole. Information is out details for the establishment of the fund soon. In provided at: the meantime, we are considering what more can be www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/ageing-society/full-of-life/ done before this to help patients access the cancer drugs More information on how to get involved with Older recommended by their clinicians. People’s Day 2010 will be made available over coming months. Cancer: Health Services Diabetes Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the maximum time an Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHS patient with cancer should have to wait from how many admissions to hospital with a (a) primary reporting the onset of symptoms to (a) diagnosis and and (b) secondary diagnosis of diabetes there were (i) (b) treatment; and if he will make a statement. [8390] in all age groups and (ii) amongst those aged 65 years and over in (A) England and (B) each primary care Mr Burstow: Any patient urgently referred for suspected trust area in each of the last 13 years. [7254] cancer by their general practitioner (GP) should be seen by a specialist and begin the diagnostic process within Mr Burstow: The information requested has been two weeks, unless they choose to wait longer. If cancer placed in the Library. is subsequently diagnosed, these patients, unless there is good clinical reason or patient choice, should begin treatment within 62 days. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of trends in the prevalence In the last period for which statistics are available of diabetes (a) in the general population and (b) (Quarter 4 2009-10) 95.6% of patients were seen by a amongst those aged 65 years in the last 20 years; and specialist within two weeks of an urgent GP referral for what his most recent estimate is of the prevalence of suspected cancer. 86.7% of patients began treatment diabetes in each of those groups. [7255] within 62 days of an urgent GP referral for suspected cancer. Mr Burstow: We know that the number of people Statistics on the time a patient waits between referral being diagnosed with diabetes is increasing. There are a and diagnosis for cancer are not collected centrally. number of reasons for this. It is partly because our population is living longer and partly because of the Care Homes: Exercise rise in the number of people who are obese. Improvements in the identification of diabetes have also been made. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The assessment in trends for the general population what steps he is taking to encourage care homes to and those aged 65 years and over for which data are provide exercise for their residents. [7812] available is shown in the following table. Prevalence of diabetes, by survey year and age Mr Burstow: The Care Homes Regulations 2001, Percentage supported by National Minimum Standards, require Survey year care homes to meet service users’ needs and to satisfy Doctor-diagnosed their expectations, preferences and social, cultural, religious diabetes (adults— and recreational interests. This will include, if it is age) 1994 1998 2003 2006 appropriate to service users’ wishes and needs, ensuring sufficient opportunities for exercise and recreation. 65-74 5.3 6.8 10.1 12.9 75+ 6.0 7.4 9.3 11.7 The Care Quality Commission (CQC) inspects homes All adults (aged 16 and 2.4 2.8 3.9 4.9 against a series of outcomes for residents. Outcome 4 over) —“Care and welfare of people who use services”—states: Notes: “People who use services should experience effective, safe and 1. Data are available only from 1994 to 2006 appropriate care, treatment and support that meets their needs 2. Estimates from the Association of Public Health Observatories and protects their rights” suggest that in 2010 there are: and that care 3,099,000 people with diabetes (diagnosed and undiagnosed) aged 16 years and older “Maintains (their) welfare and promotes their wellbeing by 1,514,000 people aged 65+ with diabetes (diagnosed and undiagnosed). taking account of all their needs, including: physical, mental, Source: social, personal relationships, emotional, daytime activity.” Health Survey for England 783W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 784W

The Institute of Diabetes for Older People has been Neither CQC nor its predecessor, the Commission commissioned by the Department to undertake a national for Social Care Inspection, have undertaken or published initiative to enhance the quality of diabetes care for all any special studies relating to diabetes care in care older people in the United Kingdom. Part of this work homes. involves developing an audit/quality tool to assess the diabetes care within residential and nursing homes. A Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pilot assessment of a toll is going on in Hertfordshire if he will place in the Library a copy of the guidance currently to be completed by October 2010. A larger his Department has issued to providers of adult social national audit is being planned for 2011. care homes on (a) screening for diabetes and (b) managing the care of residents with diabetes. [7284] Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what data the Care Quality Commission (a) Mr Burstow: The Department has not published specific collects and (b) holds on the care of people with guidance to providers of adult social care homes on diabetes resident in adult social care homes; [7256] managing people with diabetes. However, Diabetes UK (2) what data the Care Quality Commission (a) has recently published “Good clinical practice guidelines collects and (b) holds on the screening for diabetes of for care home residents with diabetes” available at: people resident in adult social care homes; [7281] www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/Our_Views/ Care_recommendations/Good-clinical-practice-guidelines- (3) what measures the Care Quality Commission for-care-home-residents-with-diabetes/ uses to assess the quality of diabetes care for people The guidelines cover national policy on good clinical with that condition who are resident in adult social practice for diabetes care within care homes, a framework care homes in England; [7282] of assessment of the quality of diabetes care within care (4) on how many occasions (a) the Care Quality homes for use by regulatory bodies that have responsibility Commission and (b) the Commission for Social Care for this provision and made key recommendations. Inspection has reported on the quality of diabetes care in adult social care homes in each of the last five years; Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [7283] what recent assessment he has made of the proportion (5) what recent assessment he has made of the of residents of care homes who have (a) diagnosed and quality of care delivered to people with diabetes in care (b) undiagnosed diabetes. [7287] homes. [7286] Mr Burstow: The information requested is not collected Mr Burstow: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) is centrally.The Department has commissioned The Institute the independent regulator of health and adult social of Diabetes for Older People to undertake a national care in England and is therefore responsible for assuring initiative to enhance the quality of diabetes care for all the safety and quality of care in care homes. older people in the United Kingdom. Part of this work involves developing an audit/quality tool to assess diabetes CQC has provided the following information about care within residential and nursing homes. A pilot its current practices. assessment of a tool is going on in Herefordshire currently Under the current framework, set by the Care Standards to be completed by October 2010. A larger National Act 2000, CQC does not collect information about the audit is being planned for 2011. specific health needs of residents, or about the residents themselves. Diabetes is not a primary reason for needing Emergency Calls admission to a home so it is not part of the ’client group’ data that CQC does collect. In addition, care Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health homes are not required to register as specialist providers what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of diabetes care. of the system for locating the source of medical emergency The same approach applies in terms of screening. No calls made from rural areas. [8781] data is specifically collected on diabetes, although providers of residential care are expected to ensure that people Mr Simon Burns: The management of incoming 999 have access to community health care services in the emergency calls are for NHS ambulance services to same way as people living in their own homes. manage locally and no formal assessment has been Under the new registration framework for health and made centrally. However, where a 999 call is made social care, which will be introduced on 1 October for (either from a landline or mobile phone), location independent healthcare and adult social care providers information (the address for calls from a landline and (including providers of care homes), all providers of an approximate area for calls from a mobile phone) is regulated activities have to register with the Commission provided to the ambulance service by the communications and meet a set of 16 registration requirements of essential provider. This information is available to all emergency levels of safety and quality. controls either by automatic data transfer or verbally on request. Trusts have been encouraged to invest in the In relation to diabetes care, the registration requirements technology that enables automatic data transfer. include the following: care and welfare of service users, management of medicines, and meeting nutritional needs. Genetically Modified Organisms The CQC is responsible for ensuring that providers of regulated activities meet the registration requirements. Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Commission has issued its Guidance about what projects on public attitudes to genetically-modified Compliance, which explains in more detail about how (a) crops, (b) food and (c) feed have been funded providers can comply with them. by the Food Standards Agency since 1997; what the 785W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 786W

(i) topic, (ii) start date, (iii) cost and (iv) project code since 1982. It offers comprehensive physical and mental was of each such project; who the main contractor was health assessments for veterans who feel that their ill in each case; and which such projects have been completed health may be linked to military service. The MAP can to date. [8031] be accessed directly by veterans and their families, as well as through general practitioners (GPs). Although Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) has we have made no specific assessment of the level of commissioned one research project on public attitudes awareness about this programme, it is publicised through to genetically modified food, project X04002 “Exploring many channels. We have confirmed that £2 million Attitudes to GM Food” which was carried out by the additional funding in the current financial year will be National Centre for Social Research between April and made available for a range of initiatives to improve November 2009. The total cost was £73,654.50 and the veterans’ mental health and this will include production final report has been published on the FSA’s website at: of training resources for GPs. Discussions are currently www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ in hand with the Royal College of General Practitioners gmreportnov09suumary.pdf about what form this might take. The FSA previously undertook a range of activities Hospitals: Admissions in 2002-03 to complement the Government’s “GM Nation?” public debate. These included focus groups (Cragg Ross Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dawson and the Scottish Civic Forum, March 2002 and what information his Department collects on the March 2003), a citizen’s jury (Opinion Leader Research, reasons for which people are admitted to hospital from April 2003), a schools’ debate (March 2003 and a school residential care institutions. [7285] video (April 2003). The total cost of these activities was £112,935. The report of these activities is published on Mr Burstow: The NHS Information Centre for Health the FSA’s website at: and Social Care collects and publishes details of all www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/gm_rep.pdf admissions to national health service hospitals in England as hospital episode statistics (HES). Health Services: Ex-servicemen HES includes a field entitled ‘Source of Admission’. This field contains a code, which identifies where the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for patient was immediately prior to admission and which Health what his policy is on encouraging general can be used to differentiate between patients admitted practitioners (a) to ask whether a patient has served in from home and patients transferred from another hospital the armed forces and (b) to provide information on provider or institution. support services to ex-service personnel. [8129] HES also contains clinical information on patients such as diagnosis, clinically significant co-morbidities Mr Simon Burns: The former chief medical officer and treatments performed. This can be combined with sent a letter to all general practitioners (GPs) in February data on the source of admission to allow analysis into this year asking GPs to record the status of veterans as the clinical reasons for which people are admitted to part of any referral. GPs have also been given guidance hospital from residential care institutions. on how to record the status of veterans on their information Mental Health Services: Children systems. We are proceeding with plans to improve information systems so that, in future, when military Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for personnel leave the armed forces, they will be provided Health (1) if he will take steps to ensure that primary with information on their entitlement to treatment in care trust commissioners work in partnership with the national health service, including priority treatment. schools in the process for commissioning child and Once these are in place, military personnel will be adolescent mental health services at a local level; [7229] encouraged before they leave the service to fill out a GP (2) what statutory duties there are on (a) adult registration form which asks whether or not the patient mental health services, (b) adult social services and (c) registering is a veteran. The form will then be sent direct child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) to the new GP or given to the veteran to present on to aid the transition of children who need continuing registration. mental health support from CAMHS to adult services. A leaflet setting out what support is available has [7230] been produced for service veterans and copies were sent to each GP practice last year. These were produced with Mr Burstow: In 2006, the Department of Health and the Royal British Legion and we will continue to work the Department for Education and Skills (now DFE) with them and with Combat Stress as one of our published ‘Transition: Getting it Right for YoungPeople’, strategic partners to ensure that the services available which provided guidance for primary care trusts and for veterans are publicised. local authorities to ensure that they worked together effectively. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for A review of services for disabled children in 2007 Health what assessment he has made of the level of found inconsistency in transition support and families awareness of general practitioners and other health were not clear about the purpose of the transition service providers of the medical assistance programme process. The Transition Support Programme (TSP) for ex-service personnel. [8130] managed by the Council for Disabled Children is helping all 152 local services (education, health and social care) Mr Simon Burns: The Medical Assessment Programme to develop and work better together, to ensure that (MAP), based at St Thomas’ Hospital, London, is young people and their families are at the heart of available to veterans who were deployed on operations decisions and plans for the future. 787W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 788W

The transition from child and adolescent mental health NHS: Finance services (CAMHS) to adult services is a critical point for young people with complex mental health needs. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Government are developing support to help young what estimate he has made of the effect on the number people’s and adult services improve these transitions to of hospital (a) accident and emergency, (b) surgical ensure that both the processes and the models of care units and (c) children’s departments in (i) 2010-11, (ii) meet the needs of young people and their families. 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13 and (iv) 2013-14 of the planned In response to the final report of the independent savings of £20 billion in the NHS between 2011 and CAMHS review published in November 2008, which 2014. [8115] was critical of transitional arrangements, a number of pieces of work on the transition between children’s and Mr Simon Burns: Information on the effect of local adult mental health care have been set-up. The Social plans on the number of accident and emergency, surgical Care Institute for Excellence (SCIE), the National CAMHS units and children’s departments is not collected centrally. Support Service (NCSS) and National Mental Health Decisions on the configuration of local health services Development Unit (NMHDU) will be collaborating to are made by local national health service organisations. produce a series of resources to support practitioners and commissioners to provide better care for adolescents Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and young adults. what estimate he has made of the effect on the number The work is being overseen by a steering group on of (a) nursing, (b) midwifery and (c) other non- which SCIE, NCSS and NMHDU are represented along nursing posts in the NHS in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12, with adult and CAMHS, Department of Health and (iii) 2012-13 and (iv) 2013-14 of the planned savings of Department of Education representatives. The group £20 billion in the NHS between 2011 and 2014. [8116] meets monthly to co-ordinate the work. Advisory processes for engagement of external stakeholder are currently Mr Simon Burns: It is the responsibility of local being agreed. national health service organisations to plan and deliver Local education authorities have a statutory duty to a work force appropriate to the needs of their local co-operate with other local agencies including health population, based on clinical need and sound evidence; and social care in making transition plans for each child this includes planning their share of the efficiency savings. with special educational needs (SEN). The Department Their proposed plans will be ready later this year. and the DFE are working together to ensure that organisations co-operate locally including on CAMHS. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for While there are no specific statutory duties on these Health (1) whether he plans to include day care services organisations relating CAMHS, many children and young provided by hospices in the proposed per-patient people with mental health needs also have a Statement funding system; [8131] of SEN. (2) whether funding under the proposed per-patient funding system will be determined on a local or on a Multiple Sclerosis national basis. [8132]

Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Burstow: There will be a new review into the how many (a) males and (b) females in each age group funding of palliative care, to be chaired by Tom Hughes- were diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in each of the Hallett, Chief Executive of Marie Curie Cancer Care. last 10 years; what medication is available on the NHS This will look to ensure that money intended to help to those diagnosed with multiple sclerosis; and if he support those adults and children in need of palliative will make a statement. [8571] care is spent in the right way. The review will make recommendations for a funding Mr Burstow: Patients living with multiple sclerosis system that will cover care provided in all settings by are able to access the full range of medications, as hospices, the NHS or any other appropriate providers. recommended in the National Institute for Health and It is due to report during the summer 2011. Clinical Excellence guidelines for the treatment of this condition. This may include steroids to treat relapses, NHS: VAT and the use of disease modifying drugs such as beta interferon, glatiramer acetate, and natalizumab. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Information on the number of people diagnosed with Health what estimate he has made of the financial multiple sclerosis each year is not collected centrally. effect on the NHS of the proposed increase in the standard rate of value added tax in 2011. [7273] NHS: Drugs Mr Simon Burns: The information required to estimate Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State the impact of the proposed increase in value added tax for Health whether the Government plans to review the is not held centrally. appraisal of drugs for the treatment of ultra orphan diseases through a process of national specialist Nurses: Manpower commissioning. [8783] Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the when estimate has been made of the effect of answer I gave him on 12 July, Official Report, column implementation of recruitment freezes on the number 482W. of frontline nursing posts in the NHS. [7845] 789W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 790W

Mr Simon Burns: No estimates are held centrally on Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the effect of recruitment freezes on the number of what steps he is taking to ensure compliance with the frontline nursing posts in the national health service. commissioning guidance on osteoporosis and fracture It is for local NHS organisations to plan and deliver a services included in the prevention package for older workforce appropriate to the needs of their local population, people. [7047] based on clinical need and sound evidence. This will require strong leadership and partnership working. Mr Burstow: In 2009, as part of the prevention package for older people, the Department issued best practice guidance on “Falls and fractures: effective interventions Nutrition: EU Law in health and social care” for organisations to determine how they will implement falls prevention and effective Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health fracture management. (1) when he expects the community list of permitted It is for organisations to decide locally how best to health claims, under article 13.3 of the Nutrition and deliver services that meet the requirements of their Health Claims Regulation, to be established; [7884] communities. In doing this, local commissioning of (2) when he expects the first batch of article 13.1 services should be community focussed and take account health claims under the provisions of the Nutrition and of the full range of services for falls, fractures and Health Claims Regulation, to be adopted; [7885] osteoporosis. (3) what his Department’s policy is on the establishment of the community list of permitted article 13.1 health claims in batches. [7886] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Anne Milton: A draft European Commission Regulation Departmental Consultants authorising the first batch of Article 13.1 health claims on the role of nutrients, or other substances, in the Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy growth, development and the functions of the body and Climate Change what budget his Department has (which are subject to procedures set out under article allocated for consultancy in 2010-11. [5927] 13.3) was discussed at the 12 July Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health but not agreed. Gregory Barker: The Department has allocated a The Commission intends to present an amended proposal budget of £14,327,220 for the financial year 2010-11. to standing committee on 11 October. If the proposal is Departmental Internet agreed by member states on that date legislation could come into force around the end of the year. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government support the aims of the regulation Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his Department to provide businesses with clarity in the market and to and (b) its non-departmental public bodies spent on protect consumers against misleading claims. The European website design in each year since its inception. [7608] Commission has indicated that it is committed to authorising health claims in response to each batch of Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and opinions. The Government are aware of United Kingdom Climate Change was created on 3 October 2008, and its businesses’ concerns and the Food Standards Agency official corporate website: will work closely with UK businesses and enforcement http://www.decc.gov.uk/ bodies to minimise any negative impact this approach may have on businesses. was launched on 23 February 2009. The amount spent on website design by the Department and bodies, since the Department’s inception, is as Osteoporosis: Health Services follows:

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Health what assessment he has made of the effects of Financial year the Osteoporosis Diagnosis and Prevention scheme on Organisation 2008-09 2009-10 the (a) prevalance and (b) date of diagnosis of osteoporosis. [7046] Department of Energy 8,435 6,945 and Climate Change Mr Burstow: The Osteoporosis Diagnosis and Prevention Civil Nuclear Police 1,850 1,900 scheme introduced in 2008 within general practitioner Authority (GP) contractual arrangements aims to provide an incentive Civil Nuclear 5,450 7,902 Constabulary to GP practices to confirm diagnosis and prescribe Nuclear 19,895 10,390 appropriate pharmacological secondary prevention in Decommissioning patients. Its purpose is to improve patient care by ensuring Authority that specified patient groups are managed appropriately The Committee on 149,204 9,816 and in accordance with National Institute for Health Climate Change and Clinical Excellence guidance. Committee on 28,000 5,464 Information on prevalence and date of diagnosis is Radioactive Waste Management not available centrally. However, financial information 1 Cost of design and set-up of whole site following creation of CCC. from primary care trusts shows that in 2009-10 nearly Not possible to extract design costs alone. two-thirds of the available reward monies were paid to 2 Cost of management of the whole site. Not possible to extract GPs for achievement. design costs alone. 791W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 792W

Departmental Official Hospitality Gregory Barker: The Department spent from its inception in October 2008 the following amounts in each year. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Electricity and heating costs are not separately identifiable Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his Department without incurring disproportionate cost. In respect of and (b) its non-departmental public bodies spent on telephone services the costs for 2008-09 are not separately hospitality in each year since its inception. [7445] identifiable without incurring disproportionate cost.

Gregory Barker: Department of Energy and Climate £000 Change and its non-departmental bodies spend on 2008-09 2009-10 hospitality was: n/a = Not available. Electricity and 154 271 £000 heating Financial year Water 17 39 2008-09 2009-10 Telephone n/a 316 (a) Department of 36 35 services Energy and Climate Change Expenditure by the Department’s non-departmental (b) non-departmental 28 24 public bodies is as follows. public bodies £000 2008-09 2009-10 Departmental Security Electricity and 469 420 heating Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Water 45 20 Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his Department Telephone 1,150 1,071 and (b) its non-departmental public bodies spent on services security in each year since its inception. [7375] EC Law Gregory Barker: The Department was established in October 2008. It spent £298,000 on security from October 2008 to March 2009 and £600,000 in 2009-10. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the cost to his The Department’s non-departmental public bodies Department of compliance with regulations arising from spent £322,000 on security in 2008-9 and £361,000 in EU obligations in the last 12 months. [6877] 2009-10. Gregory Barker: Like all employers, Government Departmental Stationery Departments have to act in accordance with a wide variety of regulation ranging from health and safety to Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for employment, but it is not standard accounting practice Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his Department to distinguish regulatory compliance costs from overall and (b) its non-departmental public bodies spent on running costs, whether of EU origin or domestic. stationery in each year since its inception. [7464] Given the lack of off-the-shelf figures, producing such an estimate on a department-by-department basis Gregory Barker: The financial systems used by the would be a major undertaking, and would involve Department for Energy and Climate Change and its disproportionate expenditure. By way of comparison, non-departmental public bodies do not enable all stationery the Administrative Burdens Measurement Exercise, which costs to be separately identified. To provide the information provided an indicative estimate of administrative burdens would disproportional in terms of cost. Therefore the across the UK economy, cost in excess of £10 million to figures in the table for stationery expenditure also include undertake. some printing costs: Electric Cables £000 FY2008-09 FY2009-10 Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether his Department plans to (a) Department for 127 420 Energy and Climate undertake strategic environmental assessments of the Change onshore electricity transmission lines proposed by the (b) Non-departmental 297 307 Electricity Networks Strategy Group; and if he will public bodies make a statement. [6283]

Charles Hendry: The Electricity Networks Strategy Departmental Utilities Group report “Our Electricity Transmission Network: A Vision for 2020” sets out the Transmission Network Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for companies’ view of the potential electricity transmission Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his Department network investments that would be needed to accommodate and (b) its non-departmental public bodies spent on (i) the change in the generation mix to 2020. Their report electricity, (ii) water, (iii) heating and (iv) telephone does not require strategic environmental assessment services in each year since its inception. [7589] (SEA). 793W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 794W

Routes for specific transmission lines are subject to £000 planning approval, and the planning system allows all stakeholders to have their views considered when decisions Total (onshore and offshore) are made. As part of the process of preparing an 2007-08 305,905 application for a transmission line, National Grid will 2008-09 419,371 undertake routeing and siting studies in accordance with guidelines that take into account amenity issues In the years between 1997 and 2002 the Government’s including visual and other environmental impacts of main mechanism for supporting renewables generation proposed lines. was the non-fossil fuel obligation (NFFO), but data on the amount of subsidy provided for wind are not readily Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy available, and the cost of obtaining it would be and Climate Change what research his Department has disproportionate on this timescale. The renewables (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on alternatives obligation was introduced in April 2002. Final figures for electricity transmission to overhead lines of 132 for the year 2009-10 are not yet available. kilovolts and above; and if he will make a statement. The DTI offshore wind capital grants scheme made a [6284] net award of £36.0 million to support the development of four early offshore wind farms between 2004-05 and Charles Hendry: Electricity transmission in England 2009-10. and Wales is defined as above 132kv. In Scotland transmission is defined as 132kv and above. Grants from the Low Carbon Building Programme (LCBP) as well as Clear Skies are outlined in the It is the responsibility of the transmission owners following table: (TOs) to design and develop the networks in the most efficient manner. £ DECC has not undertaken research of its own into LCBP—1 Clear LCBP—2 this matter. and 1e Skies and 2e Total

Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 402,248 941,774 0 1,344,021 Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on the 2007-08 870,115 0 24,653 894,768 replacement of overhead power lines and pylons with 2008-09 623,401 0 1,896,855 2,520,256 underground cables. [8245] 2009-10 495,605 0 4,542,395 5,038,000 2010-11 303,635 0 3,657,904 3,961,539 Charles Hendry: It is the responsibility of the transmission Total 2,695,004 941,774 10,121,807 13,758,584 owners to design and develop the networks in the most efficient manner, within the regulatory price control Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for review mechanism. Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his Department We would expect the transmission owner companies and its predecessors and (b) its non-departmental public to make a balanced assessment of the benefits of reducing bodies spent on subsidies for hydro-electricity power any environmental impacts of overhead electricity production in each year since 1997. [6232] transmission lines, including by undergrounding, against the costs and technical challenges of doing so. Charles Hendry: The renewables obligation is the Government’s main current mechanism for supporting Energy: Subsidies renewables generation. It is a market based instrument and the amount received by generators is set by the Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for market. It is therefore not possible to say exactly how Energy and Climate Change how much (a) his much support has been received by hydro generation. Department and its predecessors and (b) its non- However, the following table gives an estimate of the departmental public bodies spent on subsidies for wind amount of subsidy given out. turbines in each year since 1997. [6231] Financial year 1Total (£000) Charles Hendry: The renewables obligation is currently 2002-03 27,845 the Government’s main mechanism for supporting renewables generation. It is a market based instrument 2003-04 70,594 and the amount received by generators is set by the 2004-05 101,849 market. It is therefore not possible to say with certainty 2005-06 84,457 how much support has been received by wind generation. 2006-07 120,579 However, the following table gives an estimate of the 2007-08 129,356 amount of subsidy given out. 2008-09 125,063 1 Estimate £000 In the years between 1997 and 2002 the Government’s Total (onshore and offshore) main mechanism for supporting renewables generation was the non-fossil fuel obligation (NFFO), but data on 2002-03 53,350 the amount of subsidy provided for hydro are not 2003-04 66,974 readily available, and the cost of obtaining them would 2004-05 95,460 be disproportionate on this timescale. 2005-06 131,123 The variation between years is mainly due to different 2006-07 242,940 levels of rainfall, e.g. 2005-06 was a fairly dry year. 795W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 796W

Final figures for the amount of subsidies given out convention, which we have been contracting parties to for hydro under the renewables obligation in 2009-10 since the 1960s. In giving effect to the Paris convention, will not be available until later in the year. the 1965 Act limits the liability of nuclear operators to £140 million. Fuel Poverty We are currently working on amendments to the 1965 Act to implement the changes to the conventions agreed Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy in 2004. These changes set a minimum operator liability and Climate Change what definition of the term fuel of ¤700 million but there is discretion to set a higher poverty his Department currently uses; and if he will limit or have it uncapped. In the circumstances we are make a statement. [8707] reviewing the limitation of operators’ liability. We have held no discussions with potential new nuclear operators Gregory Barker: A household is said to be in fuel on this issue however we intend to consult on our poverty if it needs to spend more than 10% of its proposed changes to the 1965 Act, including limitation income on fuel to maintain an adequate level of warmth of liability, later this year. (usually defined as 21 degrees for the main living area, and 18 degrees for other occupied rooms). Office for Nuclear Development Fuel Poverty: Greater London Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change for what reason the Office and Climate Change what estimate has been made of for Nuclear Development was established as a non- the number of households which will enter fuel poverty departmental public body; what assessment was made in each London local authority area following the of the merits of establishing it as a unit within his introduction of the higher standard rate of value added Department; and whether it receives any funding tax. [7741] support from the commercial nuclear industry. [8427] Gregory Barker: The change in the rate of value added tax (VAT) will not have any direct impact on the Charles Hendry: The Office for Nuclear Development level of fuel poverty, as the reduced rate of VAT, which (OND) is not a non-departmental public body, but a applies to domestic heating fuels, will remain unchanged. unit within the Department of Energy and Climate Change. It was established in September 2008 to create Nuclear Power: Finance a one-stop shop within Government to deal with nuclear matters. The OND does not receive any funding support Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for from the commercial nuclear industry. Energy and Climate Change (1) what assessment he has made of the compatibility of his policy of providing no subsidy for nuclear power with the existing limitation Utilities: Housing on liabilities on private nuclear power plant operators under the Nuclear Installations Act 1965; [7735] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (2) if he will estimate the potential cost to the public and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the purse of a beyond- design-basis accident at a civil level of the average household (a) gas and (b) nuclear installation in the United Kingdom that creates electricity bill in (i) 1997 and (ii) the latest period for liabilities above the existing limitation of liabilities placed which figures are available; and if he will make a on nuclear installation operators; [7737] statement. [8587] (3) what discussions Ministers and officials in his Department have had with companies that have indicated Charles Hendry: For an average consumer using 18,000 an interest in building new nuclear power plants in the kWh of gas per year and paying by standard credit, the UK on the implications for their investment in new average annual domestic gas bill in Great Britain was plants of the removal of limitation on liabilities under £328 in 1997 and £717 in 2009, the latest year for which insurance arrangements covering nuclear installation the figures are available. Adjusting for the effects of operators. [7738] inflation, in real terms (using 2005 prices) equivalent bills were £393 in 1997 and £649 in 2009. Charles Hendry: The UK has an established and For an average consumer using 3,300 kWh of electricity robust regulatory framework that ensures the nuclear per year and paying by standard credit, the average industry effectively manages the risks associated with annual domestic electricity bill in the UK was £285 in the operation of civil nuclear installations and facilities. 1997 and £461 in 2009. Adjusting for the effects of As a result of this approach the probability of a beyond- inflation, in real terms (using 2005 prices) equivalent design basis accident is considered to be exceedingly bills were £342 in 1997 and £417 in 2009. small, the possible costs for which it would not be meaningful to estimate in advance. All of this information is available in chapter 2 of the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s publication There is in place a well-established international regime ‘Quarterly Energy Prices’, which can be found on the for regulating liability and compensation for third party DECC website at: damage in the event of an accident. The Nuclear Installations Act 1965 (“1965 Act”) implements the http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ UK’s obligations under the Paris convention on nuclear prices/prices.aspx third party liability and the Brussels supplementary and in the Libraries of the House. 797W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 798W

Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 options for implementation, including ways to maximise the completeness and accuracy of the electoral register, Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy as well as tackling electoral fraud. The Government will and Climate Change what research his Department has inform the House of its plans in due course. (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effect of the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 Dr Whitehead: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister on fuel poverty since July 2009; and if he will make a what steps he plans to take to increase the completeness statement. [8687] of the electoral register in 2010. [7835]

Gregory Barker: No specific research has been Mr Harper: The Government will be considering commissioned on the effect of the Warm Homes and what steps can be taken to improve registration rates in Energy Conservation Act 2000 on fuel poverty since the context of the implementation of individual electoral July 2009. registration in Great Britain.

Electoral Systems: Referendums DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Constituencies Mr Straw: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what estimate he has made of the costs of holding a referendum Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister on the alternative vote system. [6350] whether he plans to bring forward proposals to restrict existing rights to appeal against decisions of the Thomas Docherty: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Boundary Commission as part of his proposed reform what estimate his Department has made of the cost to of constituency boundaries. [7757] Government departments of administering the proposed referendum on the alternative vote system. [6865] Mr Harper: The current rules for boundary reviews do not provide for an ‘appeal’ process as such but they Mr Crausby: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what do set out arrangements for consultation on the the estimated cost to the public purse will be of the Commission’s recommendations. Representations may referendum on the alternative vote. [7846] be made on the provisional recommendations and, upon the publication of revised recommendations, further Mr Harper: Many of the cost elements of running representations may be made before final recommendations the proposed referendum on the alternative vote system are published. will be similar to those for a general election. The As my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister previous Government estimated the cost for conduct announced on 5 July 2010, Official Report, column 24, elements of the 2010 general election in Great Britain at a Bill will be introduced before the summer recess to £82.1 million, Official Report, 30 March 2010, column implement the coalition agreement commitment to make 1079W. Based on this, and our modelling for the 2009 provision for the creation of fewer and more equal sized European and 2010 general elections, it can be estimated constituencies. Detailed provisions on consultation will that the cost of conduct elements for the proposed be included in the Bill and Parliament will have the referendum will be similar. We have made initial opportunity to debate the Bill fully. assumptions about the conduct costs of a referendum were it not to be combined with any other polls and on Dr Whitehead: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister that basis we currently estimate a saving of £17 million what data derived from the 2011 Census he plans to on the conduct costs of the referendum through take into account of in his proposed review of combination. Parliamentary constituency boundaries. [7836] Additionally, as indicated in the written answer by Mr Harper: As my right hon. Friend the Deputy my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon Official Report, Prime Minister announced on 5 July 2010, Official (Mr Streeter) of 6 July, column 144W, Report, column 24, a Bill will be introduced before the the Electoral Commission has estimated that the cost summer recess to implement the coalition agreement of its own activities in relation to the referendum at commitment to make provision for the creation of £9.3 million. fewer and more equal sized constituencies. At the next Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums boundary review, in common with boundary reviews Act 2000, designated lead campaign organisations are conducted under the existing legislation (the Parliamentary entitled to send a referendum address post free, similar Constituencies Act 1986), registered electorate will be to the entitlement in place for candidates at general the basis for the review. elections. The cost of funding this entitlement does not form part of the costs of the conduct of the poll. The Elections: Registration Government are considering how this entitlement will apply at the referendum on the alternative vote. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what assessment he has made of the likely effects on Electoral Systems: Reform the completeness of the electoral register of individual voter registration. [7758] Thomas Docherty: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Mr Harper: The Government have committed to what discussions he has had with the Electoral speeding up the implementation of individual electoral Commission on the timing of the proposed referendum registration and is currently considering the different on the alternative vote system. [6864] 799W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 800W

Mr Harper: My right hon. Friend, the Deputy Prime CABINET OFFICE Minister announced the Government’s proposals for a referendum on the alternative vote, on 5 July 2010, Electoral Register: Wakefield Official Report, column 23-25. My right hon. Friend, the Deputy Prime Minister and I have had discussions with the Commission on a number of matters. Mary Creagh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent estimate has been made of (a) the European Communities Act 1972 size of the adult population and (b) the number of people registered to vote in the Metropolitan District of Wakefield. [6722] Mr Hollobone: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how many representations he has received under the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Your Freedom initiative on repeal of the European responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Communities Act 1972. [8076] asked the authority to reply. The Deputy Prime Minister: Since launching the “Your Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: Freedom” online engagement on 1 July, we have had As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I high response levels. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what recent estimate has been made of (a) the size of the adult After just seven days we had received 9,796 ideas and population and (b) the number of persons registered to vote 51,957 comments. Within the range of ideas received 59 resident in the metropolitan district of Wakefield (6722). relate to the European Communities Act (1972). The table below shows (a) the mid-2009 estimated resident population aged 18 and over for Wakefield and (b) the number General Elections of people registered to vote in local government elections as at 1 December 2009, resident in Wakefield. These figures are the Mr Bain: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what latest available. information he has (a) sought and (b) received from The definition of residency differs between the two figures the Electoral Commission on the simultaneous holding above. The mid-year population estimates refer to the usually of the next general election with elections to the Scottish resident population as defined by the standard United Nations definition of residing in an area for at least 12 months, regardless Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales on of eligibility to vote. To register to vote in local government 7 May 2015. [7550] elections, a person must be resident in the electoral area. In this context, residency is not defined in law but it has been held by the Mr Harper: The Government intend to consult a courts to entail a ‘considerable degree of permanence’. range of stakeholders in relation to their proposal to Estimated mid-year population and persons registered to vote, 2009 introduce fixed-term parliaments. Number of people Metropolitan registered to vote 1 Resident1 population Members: Conduct borough December 2009 aged 18+ mid-2009 Wakefield 248,167 255,000 Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister 1 Population estimates are rounded to the nearest thousand. when he plans to bring forward legislative proposals to Source: introduce a power of recall of hon. Members by their Office for National Statistics constituents. [7756] Lone Parents: Cynon Valley Mr Harper: The Government are currently considering what would be the fairest, most appropriate and robust Ann Clwyd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet procedure for a power of recall. We will bring forward Office how many lone parents there are in Cynon Valley our legislative proposals in due course. constituency. [6779]

Voting Rights: Prisoners Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Hanson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what asked the authority to reply. steps he plans to take to implement the judgment of the Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: European Court of Human Rights’ on voting rights for As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I [7800] prisoners in the UK. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking how many lone parents there are in Cynon Valley constituency. Mr Harper: The Government are considering afresh (6779) the issue of prisoner voting rights. The number and type of families in the UK can be estimated using the Annual Population Survey (APS). Estimates are provided West Lothian Question for lone parent families which include at least one child aged under 16. Dr Whitehead: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister The latest available figure is for 2008 and is shown in the table what progress he has made on establishing a commission below. This is based on the 2008 parliamentary constituency boundary. Cynon Valley, as constituted in 2008, consisted of 13 to consider the West Lothian Question. [7834] electoral wards, two fewer than the current constituency. The breakdown of the data available is not sufficiently detailed to Mr Harper: I will be giving consideration to the determine whether the newly constituted parliamentary constituency requirements over the coming weeks and aim to announce contains the same estimated number of lone parents as the 2008 our plans for the commission by autumn 2010. constituency. 801W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 802W

Table 1: Average net weekly equivalised household income in Number of lone parent Wakefield constituency, 2004-05 and 2007-08 1,2,3 families—with at least one child £ per week Geographical area under 16 (thousand) Mean income before Mean income (after Cynon Valley constituency (2008) 3 (housing costs)4 housing costs)4 Source: 2007-08 440 380 APS January to December 2008 1 Incomes are presented net of income tax payments, National Insurance contributions and council tax. Non-departmental Public Bodies 2 Figures rounded to the nearest £10, 3 Data for both years are based on the 2010 parliamentary constituency boundaries Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 4 Housing costs include rent (gross of housing benefit), water charges, whether he has issued guidance to non-departmental mortgage interest payments, structural insurance, ground rent and service charges. public bodies planned to be abolished on expenditure Source: by them from the public purse; and if he will make a Office for National Statistics statement. [7531]

Mr Maude: In May 2010 HM Treasury wrote to BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Government Departments to set out spending controls to contribute to the delivery of £6.2 billion savings in Advantage West Midlands: Malvern 2010-11. These controls also apply to non-departmental public bodies. Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for No further guidance has been issued to non-departmental Business, Innovation and Skills what information his public bodies on their expenditure, and no decisions Department holds on the latest discussions that have have yet been made about public bodies planned for taken place between Advantage West Midlands and abolition. QinetiQ on the quantum technology project in Malvern. [7765]

Personal Income: Wakefield Mr Prisk: BIS is aware that Advantage West Midlands (AWM) has been developing a proposal around the Mary Creagh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Quantum Technology Partnership with QinetiQ. There Office what estimate has been made of (a) the average have as yet been no formal discussions with AWM income per household and (b) the average income per about their proposal. Individual project funding and individual in Wakefield constituency in each of the last investment decisions are for the RDA board, within the context of the RDA budget allocation. five years. [6721] Agriculture: Research Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, asked the uthority to reply. Innovation and Skills what research projects on public Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2010: attitudes to the use of pesticides have been funded by As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I each research council; what the (i) research topic, (ii) have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question start date, (iii) cost and (iv) project code was of each asking what estimate has been made of (a) the average income such project; what the lead institution was in each case; per household and (b) the average income per individual in and which such projects have been completed to date. Wakefield constituency in each of the last five years. (6721) [8041] Table 1 shows the estimated average net weekly equivalised household income in Wakefield constituency, both before and Mr Willetts: None of the seven UK Research Councils after housing costs, in 2007/08, the latest year for which data are have funded any projects on public attitudes to the use available and for 2004/05, the year previous to 2007/08 for which data are available. Incomes are presented net of income tax of pesticides. payments, National Insurance contributions and Council Tax. The incomes are equivalised to take account of each household’s Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, size and composition, in recognition of how these affect their Innovation and Skills what research projects on marker- standard of living. Data for individuals are not available. assisted plant breeding (a) each research council and The estimates provided are based on small area statistics (b) the Science and Technology Facilities Council has published by the ONS. They are classed as experimental statistics funded since 1997; what the (i) research topic, (ii) start which means they have been developed in accordance with the date, (iii) cost and (iv) project code was of each such principles set out in the National Statistics Code of Practice but project; what the lead institution was in each case; and have yet to be fully accredited as National Statistics. which such projects have been completed to date. [8042] These estimates, as with any involving sample surveys, are subject to a margin of uncertainty. Mr Willetts: The Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Table 1: Average net weekly equivalised household income in Research Council (BBSRC) has undertaken research Wakefield constituency, 2004-05 and 2007-08 1,2,3 into marker-assisted plant breeding, but the cost of £ per week collating the information in the form requested would Mean income before Mean income (after be disproportionate. (housing costs)4 housing costs)4 None of the other research councils have undertaken 2004-05 380 340 research into marker-assisted plant breeding. 803W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 804W

Broadband As a first step towards this ambition, the Government are also committed to making a service level of 2Mbps Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for available in towns and villages still without a basic level Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking of access. The office charged with delivering this Universal to expand the provision of superfast broadband. [8695] Service Commitment, Broadband Delivery UK, will be holding an industry event in July to provide further Mr Vaizey: As stated in the coalition’s joint programme information on the approach to meeting the 2Mbps for Government, we will seek to introduce superfast service commitment and the market testing schemes. broadband across the country. On 8 June, the Secretary of State for Culture, the Olympics, Media and Sport set Business: Government Assistance out the Government’s plans for ensuring the UK has the best superfast broadband network in Europe by the Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for end of the Parliament. Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for These plans include enabling access to existing the future of (a) Business Link and (b) publicly- infrastructure to reduce the cost of deployment, and we funded business support in the north east. [6997] will be launching a discussion document on how best to do this on 15 July. Ofcom are at the same time taking Mr Prisk: The coalition Government are committed forward work looking at the potential for other operators to replacing regional development agencies with local to use BT’s existing infrastructure. Further, the Secretary enterprise partnerships. We are working with the regional of State has proposed three market testing projects for development agencies (RDAs) to enable this transition. superfast broadband in rural areas, to be paid for with We are reviewing all the functions of the RDAs and we money left over from the Digital TV switchover helpscheme. believe some of these are best led nationally, including The venues for these projects are currently under responsibility for business support. The forthcoming consideration. White Paper on sub-national economic growth will set out our approach in more detail. Broadband: Rural Areas Business: Investment Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for is taking to ensure that rural areas have access to high Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking speed broadband; and if he will make a statement. to raise levels of business investment in research and [8354] development. [7095] Mr Vaizey [holding answer 13 July 2010]: As stated Mr Willetts: The Chancellor announced in the emergency in the Coalition’s joint programme for Government, we Budget that we will consult with business in autumn will seek to introduce superfast broadband in remote 2010 to review the taxation of intellectual property, the areas at the same time as in more populated areas. On 8 support R and D tax credits provide for innovation and June, the Secretary of State for Culture, the Olympics, the proposals of the Dyson Review. The coalition agreement Media and Sport set out the Government’s plans for makes it clear that we are committed to refocusing the ensuring the UK has the best superfast broadband R and D tax credit on hi-tech companies, small firms network in Europe by the end of the Parliament. and start ups as recommended by Sir James Dyson. These plans include enabling access to existing The Government have also set out its intention to infrastructure to reduce the cost of deployment, and we create the most competitive corporate tax system in the will be launching a discussion document on how best to G20. The Chancellor announced that the corporation do this on 15 July. Further, the Secretary of State has tax headline rate will be reduced from 28% to 24% over proposed three market testing projects for superfast four years and that the small companies rate will be broadband in rural areas, to be paid for with money left reduced to 20%. over from the Digital TV switchover helpscheme. The venues for these projects are currently under consideration. Internet: Wi-fi Broadband: West Midlands Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to has received from proprietors of cafes, bars and other expand the provision of broadband in the West premises offering wireless internet access to customers Midlands; and if he will make a statement. [8209] on the effects on them of the provisions on illegal file-sharing in the Digital Economy Act 2010. [8668] Mr Vaizey: On 8 June, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, the Olympics, Media and Mr Vaizey: As part of the consultative process prior Sport set out the Government’s plans for ensuring the to the Bill’s introduction, this Department received UK has the best superfast broadband network in Europe representations from various organisations which offer by the end of the Parliament. These plans include wi-fi internet access including some of the major internet enabling access to existing infrastructure to reduce the service Providers (ISPs) and higher educational cost of deployment. Further, the Secretary of State establishments. These can be found at: proposed three market testing projects schemes for superfast http://www.bis.gov.uk/Consultations/illicit-p2p-file- broadband in rural areas. sharing?cat=closedwithresponse 805W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 806W

In addition, officials sought views from and had Mr Djanogly: Court orders for execution by bailiffs meetings with educational and cultural organisations are issued in both the county court and the magistrates such as universities, museums and libraries who offer court. wi-fi access. There were also several meetings with individual commercial companies and trade bodies from the All warrants issued by the county court are executed hospitality, hotel, and holiday park sectors. by in house bailiffs and the details of the orders issued are in the following table. Radio Frequencies Calendar Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, year Execution1 Delivery2 Possession3 Committal4 Innovation and Skills (1) what steps he is taking to 2005 341,097 2,382 131,510 1,844 ensure that those who own programme making and 2006 340,078 2,121 144,990 1,757 special events equipment due to be rendered redundant 2007 310,178 2,359 146,120 1,647 as a result of the clearance of the 600 MHz and 800 2008 294,823 2,500 159,337 1,353 MHz spectrum are not left any worse off as a result of 2009 236,293 2,307 139,131 1,103 the changes; [7663] 1 Allows saleable items owned by the debtor to be sold unless the (2) on what terms the Government will provide amount due under the warrant is paid. compensation to those in the programme making and 2 For the return of goods or items. special events sector whose wireless equipment will be 3 For the repossession of property. 4 rendered redundant as a consequence of the clearance For enforcing an order where the penalty for failing to comply is imprisonment. It authorises the bailiff to arrest and deliver the person and sale of the digital dividend spectrum. [7664] to prison or the court. Mr Vaizey: Programme Making and Special Events (PMSE) users were given notice in 2005 by Ofcom that Warrants issued by the magistrates courts are executed they would have to vacate channels 31-37 (600 MHz by both in house Civilian Enforcement Officers (CEOs), spectrum) and 63-68 (800 MHz spectrum) by 2012, and where HMCS employ them, and by private Enforcement in 2007 that channels 61-62 (800 MHz spectrum) would Agents under contract to HMCS (AEAs). no longer be available for use. Ofcom consider this an The following table gives details of the warrants acceptable period of notice for users to react and are issued to these two categories. This data is only available not obliged to offer compensation or to find alternative from 2006-07 onwards and the final figures for 2009-10 spectrum. However, Ofcom have said that most of the are not yet available. 32 channels retained for digital terrestrial television after Digital Switchover in the 600 MHz band will still Financial be available on an interleaved basis for PMSE and it is year Issued to AEAs1 Issued to CEOs2 confident there will be enough spectrum in individual locations to more than satisfy historic peak demand. 2006-07 721,000 598,000 2007-08 648,000 606,000 Ofcom will be able to say more about precise frequencies in specific locations later this year, following the outcome 2008-09 613,000 484,000 1 Covers warrants, for HMCS areas, for distress and clamping, which of negotiations with neighbouring countries. allows saleable items owned by the debtor to be sold unless the After Ofcom’s 2005 statement, users had legitimately amount due under the warrant is paid and warrants for arrest for non been expecting to use channel 69 (in the 800 MHz payment of financial orders or non compliance with Community spectrum) for PMSE until 2018, and therefore as Penalty orders for HMCS areas where CEOs are not employed. 2 Covers warrants for arrest for non payment of financial orders or Government agreed with a proposal to change the use non compliance with Community Penalty orders. of this channel, Government will ensure PMSE users will be compensated for being moved from channel 69. As regards complaints alleging misuse by bailiffs of This Government are now considering options on the powers granted by the court. HMCS has a complaint appropriate level of compensation, taking into account recording system which requires staff to record customer how we can best ensure users are neither better nor dissatisfaction. However it does not specifically collect worse off, what sort of precedent a compensation scheme data about alleged misuse of bailiff powers but in a would set, and whether it would be lawful. Equally more general format of complaints about the way a important, in particular in the current financial climate, bailiff has handled a warrant. is the need to appropriately safeguard and make efficient use of taxpayers’ money. A decision will be taken as The following table indicates the number of such soon as possible. complaints that have been received.

Financial year County Court warrants Magistrates warrants JUSTICE 2006-07 369 154 Bailiffs: Misconduct 2007-08 442 155 2008-09 475 135 Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2009-10 423 249 how many court orders were issued to bailiffs for execution in each of the last five years; and how many complaints (a) his Department and (b) HM Courts The actual number of these complaints that specifically Service has received alleging misuse by bailiffs of alleged misuse of powers could be provided only at powers granted by the courts to execute such orders in disproportionate cost as it would require a manual each such year. [7008] search of the individual complaint files. 807W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 808W

Departmental Expenditure Mr Djanogly: The Government are currently completing a review of regulatory measures planned for introduction by the previous Government over the coming year and Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for listed in The Forward Regulatory Programme published Justice (1) how much (a) his Department and (b) its March 2010 agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on employee awaydays in each year since its inception; http://www.bis.gov.uk/bre [7324] The purpose of the Forward Regulatory Programme (2) how much (a) his Department and (b) its is to improve the management and scrutiny of new agencies and non-departmental public bodies has spent regulations as they are developed to reduce burdens on on information and communication technology in each businesses. The programme only includes those regulations that have an impact on the private and third sectors. year since its inception; [7343] (3) how much (a) his Department and (b) its These regulations will not be implemented until they agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on have been reviewed and re-agreed by the Reducing office refurbishment in each year since its inception; Regulation Cabinet Committee. [7362] The MoJ will be considering suggestions made through the ’Your Freedom’ exercise which is currently asking (4) how much his (a) Department and (b) its the public for their ideas to reduce pointless regulation agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on and unnecessary bureaucracy. travel for employees in each year since 1997; [7431] http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/1atest-news/2010/07/your- (5) how much (a) his Department and (b) its freedom-52709 agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on hospitality in each year since its inception; [7450] Departmental Security (6) how much (a) his Department and (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice stationery in each year since its inception; [7469] how much (a) his Department and (b) its agencies and (7) how much his (a) Department and (b) its non-departmental public bodies spent on security in agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on each year since its inception. [7380] logo design in each year since its inception; [7488] (8) how much (a) his Department and (b) its Mr Kenneth Clarke: Expenditure on security across agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on the Ministry of Justices’ estate covers a wide array of televisions in each year since its inception; [7512] items, including guarding contracts, physical barriers, (9) how much (a) his Department and (b) its CCTV, specialist lighting, staff training, information agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on security and IT encryption, as well as the cost of security teams. legal advice in each year since its inception; [7575] Budgets are devolved to the Ministry’s agencies and (10) how much (a) his Department and (b) its non-departmental public bodies who then apply them agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on as required. Funding for security is not recorded separately. (i) electricity, (ii) water, (iii) heating and (iv) telephone To extract security costs from the general planned services in each year since its inception; [7594] maintenance budget and other provisions in the many (11) how much (a) his Department and (b) its and disparate MoJ establishments in England and Wales agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on would incur a disproportionate cost to collate. website design in each year since its inception; [7613] (12) how much (a) his Department and (b) its Departmental Speeches agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on light bulbs in each year since its inception; [7632] Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for (13) how much his (a) Department and (b) its Justice which (a) (i) civil servants and (ii) special advisers agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent on in his Department and (b) other individuals are employed employee training since its inception. [7654] to write speeches for each Minister in his Department. [7398] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice has four executive agencies and sponsors nine executive non- Mr Kenneth Clarke: One member of staff is employed departmental public bodies plus 35 probation trusts, as a speechwriter to draft speeches for me and to most operate separate accounting systems and processes. provide support on speeches to be made by other ministers The information requested is currently being collated in the Ministry of Justice. Two special advisers work to and verified. I will write to the hon. Member once this me, performing a range of duties, including advice and process is complete, which will hopefully be before the comments on drafts of speeches. No other civil servants House rises for the summer recess. or other individuals are employed to write speeches in the Ministry of Justice.

Departmental Regulation Departmental Travel

Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which of his Department’s regulations are under review; which (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department and if he will make a statement. [7142] have been driven by the Government Car Service since 809W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 810W the Government took office; and how much each of Mr Djanogly: The ICO is the independent authority these persons has received in expenses for use of taxis, responsible for compliance with and enforcement of the buses and underground trains in that period. [7966] Data Protection Act 1998, the Freedom of Information Act 2000, the Privacy and Electronic Communications Mr Blunt: The Secretary of State, the Minister of Regulations 2003 and the Environmental Information State for Justice (MOJ) and the two Parliamentary Regulations 2005. Under-Secretaries of State at the Ministry of Justice It is not the role of the Ministry of Justice, and currently have use of an allocated ministerial car during neither does it have the powers, to assess the ICO’s the week. compliance with the legislation that the Office is responsible The Home Office provides the arrangements in relation for regulating. However, the ICO conducts regular internal to the Minister of State for Policing and Criminal audits which ensure that its policies and procedures Justice, who also has ministerial responsibilities at the remain subject to scrutiny and review. In addition, Ministry of Justice. regular meetings take place between the Department The number of officials who have been driven by the and the ICO to discuss a range of matters, including the Government Car Service since this Government took ICO’s performance, compliance and audit reports. office is not held centrally and could be provided only Prison Service: Budgets by contacting every division within MOJ at a disproportionate cost. Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice MOJ staff, including Ministers and the Department’s what budget was set for HM Prison (a) Manchester, two special advisers have access to the use of a taxi (b) Birmingham and (c) Liverpool in (i) 2009-10 and ordered through departmental taxi accounts or to a car (ii) 2010-11. [8111] ordered through the Government Car and Despatch Agency. Both the taxi account and the car and despatch Mr Blunt: The information requested is set out in the agency may only be used in exceptional circumstances following table: which may include: by the time you cease work either public transport is not £ available for your journey from work to home or it would not 2009-10 2010-11 be reasonable to expect you to use public transport or when heavy baggage has to be transported for work-related Manchester 35,287,000 35,535,000 reasons. Birmingham 30,369,525 29,122,082 Ministerial and staff business travel is procured and Liverpool 26,754,377 25,049,397 paid for by the Department prior to travel. Where ministers and staff have personally paid for business Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice travel; they may be reimbursed by submitting a travel what budget was set for (a) Merseyside, (b) West and subsistence claim to the Department. Since the Midlands and (c) South Wales probation area for (i) Government took office up to and including 8 July, 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [8112] there have been no such claims made by Ministers or their private office staff. Information is not held centrally Mr Blunt: The information requested is set out in the for staff in the wider MOJ and could be provided only following table: by examining individual expense claims at a disproportionate cost. However, we are looking at ways £ in which this information will be centrally recorded in 2009-10 2010-11 the future. The new Ministerial Code, published on 21 May Merseyside 32,750,965 30,799,120 2010, contains changes that affect Ministerial entitlement West 57,483,893 73,995,000 to travel by Government car. It states that: Midlands South 25,563,052 54,757,600 “the number of Ministers with allocated cars and drivers will be Wales kept to a minimum, taking into account security and other relevant considerations. Other Ministers will be entitled to use The increase in 2010-11 for West Midlands reflects cars from the Government Car Service Pool as needed.” the wider merged trust of Staffordshire and West Midlands The Department for Transport and its Government Car and the increase in 2010-11 for South Wales reflects the and Despatch Agency are working with Departments wider merged trust of Wales. to effect the transition to the new arrangements. Prisoners Release: Reoffenders The Ministerial Code is available on the Cabinet Office website. Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent assessment he has made of the Information Commissioner’s Office: Standards adequacy of methods of assessing the risk of re-offending of inmates prior to release from prison. [7546] Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent assessment he has made of the Mr Blunt: For those prisoners subject to a determinate performance of the Information Commissioner’s Office sentence of at least 12 months or subject to an indeterminate (ICO) in ensuring that records management and data sentence (life or IPP), an assessment is made at the processing are undertaken in accordance with the pre-release stage through the Offender Assessment System requirements of the legislation for which the ICO is a (OASys). OASys includes two predictors of reoffending, regulator. [7124] the OASys general reoffending predictor (OGP) and the 811W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 812W

OASys violence predictor (OVP). OVP predicts reoffending INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY involving non-sexual violence, while OGP predicts most STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE other reoffending. The research underpinning these predictors is available on the Ministry of Justice website Location (Research Summary 2/09 and Research Series 16/09). Validity checks demonstrated that both OGP and OVP John Mann: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, substantially improved prediction compared to previous representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent tools. Parliamentary Standards Authority for what reasons An OASys basic custody screening, to be used with officials working for the Independent Parliamentary all sentenced prisoners, is currently being piloted in Standards Authority are working in central London; Yorkshire and Humberside with the intention of rolling what consideration was given to locating them in a less out nationally. This screening includes the Offender expensive part of the country; and if he will make a Group Reconviction Scale (OGRS) which predicts all statement. [7894] types of reoffending. The validation of OGRS version 3 can also be found on the Ministry of Justice website Mr Charles Walker: IPSA advises me that the merits (Research Summary 7/09). of basing IPSA in a location other than Westminster Reoffenders: Ex-servicemen were considered early in IPSA’s implementation phase. It was concluded that the most appropriate location for IPSA’s permanent home was central London, within a Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice reasonable distance of the Palace of Westminster. This what help and advice is available for former military decision was taken to minimise the risk of disruption personnel who enter the criminal justice system, with during the handover period between the old system particular reference to schemes to reduce levels of administered by the House of Commons and IPSA’s reoffending. [7867] new system, not least in respect of the potential impact on those staff transferring from the House of Commons Mr Blunt: A broad range of services and interventions to IPSA. are delivered generally to offenders across custody and the community to meet particular needs and address Manpower offending behaviour. There are a number of accredited offending behaviour programmes addressing thinking skills, anger management, domestic and other types of Mr Anderson: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, violent crime as well as sexual offending. A range of representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent interventions is available for offenders with an alcohol Parliamentary Standards Authority what the policy of or drug problem. Other activities across prison and the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is probation such as training, education, work, non accredited on provision of additional staff resources for hon. courses, specialist support and resettlement may also Members to assist with the processing of claims for have a significant part to play. allowance payments. [8098] The Ministry of Justice works closely with independent Mr Charles Walker: IPSA does not provide additional organisations that provide services specifically for veterans, staff resources specifically to assist with the processing and across Government to raise awareness among ex-service of claims under the MPs’ expenses scheme. If MPs are personnel of the help and support available to them and unable to remain within their staffing budget for the their families while they serve a prison or community current financial year, they can apply to IPSA for sentence. support from the contingency fund. All such applications Contact details are provided for the Service Personnel will be considered on a case by case basis. and Veterans Agency (SPVA),The Royal British Legion (TRBL), Soldiers Sailors Airmen and Families Association Members: Allowances (SSAFA) Forces Help and Combat Stress. Posters detailing the types of support provided by these agencies are distributed and displayed widely across the prison estate Ann McKechin: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, and in Probation offices. Prison officers and offender representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent managers now have direct access to the SPVA website. Parliamentary Standards Authority what procedures the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Ministry of Defence funded mental health services will adopt to reimburse hon. Members for London provide support to veterans in prison as well as those in Area Living Allowance for the period between the date the community. The MoD funded Medical Assessment of the General Election and the date on which the programme provides specialist military mental health initial claim for that allowance was submitted. [7679] advice for veterans in prison referred to them by prison medical staff. The programme has been extended to Mr Charles Walker: The MPs’ expenses scheme does include reservists mental health for those who have not allow the London Area Living Payment to be paid deployed since 2003. in respect of any period before IPSA is notified that an Many prison governors have managed to appoint a MP intends to claim it. Consequently, IPSA is not able local point of contact for co-ordinating and promoting to backdate any such claims to the date of the general services as part of the model of practice promoted in election. the Guide, “Veterans in Custody Support-A Guide” which has been distributed to all prison establishments. Mr Anderson: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Many prison and probation staff are veterans themselves representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent and bring further experience and understanding. Parliamentary Standards Authority whether the 813W Written Answers14 JULY 2010 Written Answers 814W

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority has on reimbursement of hon. Members for first class rail assessed the merits of introducing a paper-based system travel on sleeper services in circumstances where single for claiming allowance payments. [8097] berths are not available on such services at fares equal to or less than the standard open ticket tariff (a) with Mr Charles Walker: IPSA has advised me that the and (b) without a supplement. [8043] merits of introducing a paper-based system for claiming expenses were considered during the start-up phase of Mr Charles Walker: The MPs’ expenses scheme only IPSA. It was concluded that in line with current expectations allows the costs of economy/standard class tickets or of IT-led delivery within the public sector, it would be the equivalent to be reimbursed. MPs travelling on inappropriate to design a new expenses process which sleeper train services are additionally entitled to claim was not based at least in part on an IT-led solution. for sleeper supplements, for either a single occupancy IPSA remains of the view that an IT-led, rather than berth or a share of a twin occupancy berth. Both paper-based, system is most appropriate. Using an IT-led companies which provide sleeper train services within solution allows IPSA to achieve a high level of transparency the UK will allow travellers to purchase either berth as more easily and cheaply than an equivalent manual a supplement to a standard class ticket. approach. It will also allow any future changes to The total cost of the ticket plus sleeper supplement processes to be more easily implemented. may be higher than the price of a standard open ticket. Members: Rail Travel Therefore, as the guidance to the scheme states at paragraph 7.7, the total cost will be reimbursed in these Ann McKechin: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, cases. representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent IPSA believes that this will allow Members to obtain Parliamentary Standards Authority what the policy of a single berth on all sleeper services. Where this is not the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is the case, IPSA would welcome evidence from Members.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 14 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 931 CABINET OFFICE—continued Big Society Bank...... 935 Voluntary and Community Sectors ...... 933 Civil Servants (Terms and Conditions)...... 936 Voluntary Sector ...... 936 Civil Service Compensation Scheme...... 931 Voluntary Sector ...... 937 Efficiency Savings ...... 937 Voluntary Sector ...... 939 Efficiency Savings ...... 940 Government Projects (Consultants) ...... 932 PRIME MINISTER ...... 940 National Citizen Service...... 938 Engagements...... 940 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 14 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 27WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 31WS UK Inward Investment ...... 27WS EU Observer Rights (UN General Assembly)...... 31WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 28WS Park Homes Reforms...... 28WS DEFENCE...... 28WS HEALTH...... 32WS Afghanistan Troop Levels ...... 28WS Health Select Committee Report on Social Care.... 32WS PETITION

Wednesday 14 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 9P Equitable Life (Portsmouth North) ...... 9P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 14 July 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 748W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Departmental Buildings...... 748W continued Departmental Marketing ...... 749W Departmental Consultants...... 756W Departmental Official Cars...... 749W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 757W Departmental Training ...... 750W Departmental ICT ...... 757W Departmental Utilities ...... 751W Departmental Internet ...... 758W Written Questions: Expenditure...... 753W Departmental Lighting ...... 758W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 758W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 802W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 759W Advantage West Midlands: Malvern ...... 802W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 759W Agriculture: Research...... 802W Departmental Regulation...... 760W Broadband ...... 803W Departmental Security ...... 760W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 803W Departmental Speeches...... 761W Broadband: West Midlands...... 803W Departmental Stationery...... 761W Business: Government Assistance ...... 804W Departmental Training ...... 762W Business: Investment ...... 804W Fire Services...... 762W Internet: Wi-fi ...... 804W Fire Services: Finance ...... 763W Radio Frequencies ...... 805W Fire Services: Standards...... 766W Housing: Planning ...... 767W CABINET OFFICE...... 800W Local Government Executive ...... 767W Electoral Register: Wakefield ...... 800W Local Government Finance ...... 767W Lone Parents: Cynon Valley...... 800W Non-domestic Rates...... 768W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 801W Personal Income: Wakefield...... 801W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 753W Departmental Buildings...... 753W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 756W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 754W Departmental Buildings...... 756W Departmental Lighting ...... 754W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Departmental Photographs...... 754W continued Departmental Security ...... 755W Departmental Lost Property ...... 738W Departmental Travel ...... 755W Departmental Official Cars...... 738W Historic Buildings: Coventry...... 756W Departmental Regulation...... 738W National Lottery...... 756W Departmental Speeches...... 739W EU Law...... 739W DEFENCE...... 731W Horses: Databases...... 739W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 731W Litter...... 740W Armed Forces: Private Education ...... 731W Pets: Animal Welfare...... 740W Defence...... 732W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 740W Departmental Equality ...... 732W Departmental Human Resources ...... 732W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 730W Departmental ICT ...... 733W Departmental Official Cars...... 730W Departmental Training ...... 733W Departmental Speeches...... 730W European Fighter Aircraft ...... 733W European Union ...... 730W Gibraltar: Spain ...... 734W Zimbabwe: Diamonds...... 731W Red Arrows...... 734W HEALTH...... 779W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 797W Agency Nurses: Manpower...... 779W Constituencies...... 797W Arthritis: Health Services...... 779W Elections: Registration ...... 797W Autism: Children...... 780W Electoral Systems: Referendums ...... 798W Blood: Cancer...... 780W Electoral Systems: Reform ...... 798W Cancer: Drugs...... 781W European Communities Act 1972 ...... 799W Cancer: Health Services ...... 781W General Elections...... 799W Care Homes: Exercise ...... 781W Members: Conduct ...... 799W Diabetes ...... 782W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 799W Emergency Calls ...... 784W West Lothian Question ...... 799W Genetically Modified Organisms...... 784W Health Services: Ex-servicemen...... 785W EDUCATION...... 768W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 786W Academies: GCSE...... 768W Mental Health Services: Children ...... 786W Children: Protection...... 768W Multiple Sclerosis...... 787W Departmental Property ...... 769W NHS: Drugs...... 787W Free Schools...... 769W NHS: Finance ...... 788W GCSE: Languages...... 769W NHS: VAT ...... 788W Pupils: Health ...... 770W Nurses: Manpower...... 788W Schools: Admissions ...... 770W Nutrition: EU Law...... 789W Schools: Anti-Semitism...... 771W Osteoporosis: Health Services ...... 789W Schools: Medicine...... 771W Schools: Mental Health Services ...... 772W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 741W Schools: Transport ...... 772W Corruption...... 741W Schools: Visits...... 772W Crime Prevention ...... 741W Science: Education ...... 773W Demonstrations: Parliament Square ...... 741W Special Educational Needs...... 773W Departmental Buildings...... 742W Special Educational Needs: Pupil Exclusions...... 774W Departmental Conferences...... 742W Special Educational Needs: Pupil Referral Units ... 775W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 743W Departmental Lighting ...... 743W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 790W Departmental Photographs...... 743W Departmental Consultants...... 790W Departmental Security ...... 743W Departmental Internet ...... 790W Departmental Utilities ...... 743W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 791W Hillsborough Stadium: Disclosure of Information. 744W Departmental Security ...... 791W Immigration...... 744W Departmental Stationery...... 791W Police Community Support Officer: Redundancy .. 745W Departmental Utilities ...... 791W Police Community Support Officers: Greater EC Law...... 792W Manchester ...... 746W Electric Cables ...... 792W Police: Manpower ...... 746W Energy: Subsidies ...... 793W Police: VAT ...... 746W Fuel Poverty...... 795W Speed Limits: Fines...... 746W Fuel Poverty: Greater London ...... 795W Nuclear Power: Finance ...... 795W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Office for Nuclear Development ...... 796W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 812W Utilities: Housing...... 796W Location...... 812W Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 . 797W Manpower...... 812W Members: Allowances ...... 812W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Members: Rail Travel...... 813W AFFAIRS...... 734W Agriculture: Research...... 734W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 775W Air Pollution ...... 736W Bilateral Aid: Climate Change ...... 775W Air Pollution: East of England ...... 736W Brazil: Cattle...... 776W Dairy Farming: Cooperatives...... 737W Centres for Disease Control ...... 776W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued SCOTLAND—continued Common Agricultural Policy ...... 776W Merchant Shipping ...... 729W Departmental Speeches...... 776W Transport: Scotland ...... 730W Developing Countries: Climate Change ...... 777W Voting Systems: Scotland...... 730W Developing Countries: Forests ...... 777W Developing Countries: Maternity Services ...... 777W TRANSPORT ...... 720W Developing Countries: Rivers ...... 778W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 720W Overseas Aid: Health Services...... 778W Crossrail...... 721W Pakistan: Overseas Aid ...... 778W Crossrail Line: Kent...... 721W Yemen: Overseas Aid ...... 779W Cycling: Safety ...... 721W Cycling: Schools...... 721W JUSTICE...... 805W Driving: Safety...... 722W Bailiffs: Misconduct...... 805W First Capital Connect...... 722W Departmental Expenditure ...... 807W Government Car and Despatch Agency...... 722W Departmental Regulation...... 807W Railways...... 722W Departmental Security ...... 808W Departmental Speeches...... 808W TREASURY ...... 715W Departmental Travel ...... 808W Departmental Accountancy ...... 715W Information Commissioner’s Office: Standards ..... 809W Departmental NDPBs...... 717W Prison Service: Budgets...... 810W Finance Bill 2010-11 ...... 717W Prisoners Release: Reoffenders...... 810W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 717W Reoffenders: Ex-servicemen ...... 811W Insurance: Construction...... 717W Public Expenditure...... 718W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 747W Public Finance ...... 718W Departmental Official Cars...... 747W Taxation: Aviation ...... 719W Departmental Travel ...... 747W Taxation: PFI...... 719W VAT ...... 720W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 713W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 713W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 722W Departmental ICT ...... 713W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 722W Departmental Marketing ...... 713W Departmental Regulation...... 723W Departmental Security ...... 714W Disability Living Allowance...... 723W Departmental Stationery...... 714W Ethnic Minority Employment Task Force...... 724W Departmental Training ...... 714W Health and Safety Executive: Expenditure ...... 724W Departmental Travel ...... 715W Health and Safety Executive: Manpower ...... 724W Departmental Utilities ...... 715W Industrial Health and Safety...... 725W Industrial Injuries ...... 725W SCOTLAND...... 729W Jobcentre Plus ...... 728W Independent Living Fund: Scotland...... 729W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Durham ...... 728W Lanarkshire: Official Visits ...... 729W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 728W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 14 July 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 931] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Carers (Identification and Support) [Col. 954] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Barbara Keeley)—agreed to Bills presented, and read the First time

Police Grant Report [Col. 957] Motion—(Nick Herbert)—on a Division, agreed to

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism [Col. 1006] Motion—(Mrs May)—on a Division, agreed to

European External Action Service [Col. 1034] Motion to take note of EC document—(Mr Lidington)—on a Division, agreed to

Retained Firefighters [Col. 1061] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall People with Learning Disabilities (NHS Treatment) [Col. 253WH] Rail Services (South London Line) [Col. 271WH] Courts Service [Col. 281WH] Frenchay Hospital [Col. 307WH] Renewable Energy Projects [Col. 314WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 27WS]

Petition [Col. 9P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 713W] [see index inside back page]