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Wednesday Volume 513 14 July 2010 No. 32 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 14 July 2010 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 931 14 JULY 2010 932 belief, large numbers of civil servants are not very well House of Commons paid—half of them earn £21,000 a year or less—and we want there to be extra protection for them. I want to Wednesday 14 July 2010 engage as quickly as possible with the unions to negotiate an arrangement that has not only fairness but accountability The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock built into it. PRAYERS Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Last week, the Minister said that his proposals may not have been necessary if the Public and Commercial [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Services Union had joined the other five trade unions in agreeing to the previous Government’s reform package. That being so, will he start his negotiations with that Oral Answers to Questions package, which would have saved £500 million over three years and protected the lowest paid? CABINET OFFICE Mr Maude: As I say, we are very keen to have proper protection for the lowest-paid workers. Had that scheme The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— been in existence when the coalition Government came into office, a pressing case would have been made to Civil Service Compensation Scheme leave it as it was and work on that basis. That option is no longer on the table, so it seemed to us right to look at 1. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): a scheme that is sustainable for the long term. The What recent discussions he has had with trade union previous revised scheme made only relatively modest representatives on reform of the civil service changes, and it was still way out of kilter with anything compensation scheme. [8067] available under the statutory redundancy scheme or, The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster indeed, throughout most of the private sector. General (Mr Francis Maude): I wrote to the chairman of the Council of Civil Service Unions immediately after Paul Goggins: I am grateful for that answer. However, making my statement to the House on 6 July. I have it is hard to take the Minister seriously about these invited the unions to begin discussions with us on negotiations when after all the press speculation, and developing a sustainable and affordable long-term successor more than a week after he sent his letter to the trade to the current civil service compensation scheme. I met unions, the 600,000 staff who are affected still have no the unions yesterday, and my officials have had further details of what he is proposing other than the threat of meetings with them. a 12-month cap on redundancy payments to all staff. Why should the lowest-paid staff—the junior official in Katy Clark: I thank the Minister for that answer. As a jobcentre—be treated in exactly the same way as the he will appreciate, thousands of civil servants currently permanent secretary of a Government Department? face losing their jobs as a result of this Government’s policies. Will such people be able to rely on their contractual Mr Maude: It is precisely my intention that that terms? should not be the case. That is why I want to engage with the unions quickly to develop a scheme that protects Mr Maude: It is common ground that the current the lowest paid. It is quite a complicated thing to do—it civil service compensation scheme is unaffordable. The is not capable of being done in the course of a Bill—so hon. Lady’s own Government attempted to introduce a we need to negotiate it. I want to ensure that it works new scheme that introduced modest changes to the and is effective in providing fairness, but is also affordable. current scheme. That was agreed by five out of the six I hope that we can engage with this as soon as possible. civil service unions, but sadly, the sixth did not agree, I have made it clear to the unions that it is our intention went to the High Court, and had it struck down. The not only to negotiate on the ceiling that is available for result is that savings that had been scheduled to be voluntary redundancy schemes but to provide protection made by the previous Government now cannot be made, for the lower paid. so there is an additional cost. I have taken the view that it is not responsible to leave matters as they are. Nor is it Government Projects (Consultants) fair to leave in limbo for ever people who know that there is, through no fault of their own, no job for them 2. Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What for the future, which has been the case for some time. plans he has to review arrangements for the use of Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does consultants for Government projects. [8068] the Minister accept that any plans severely to restrict redundancy payments for hundreds of thousands of The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster low-paid civil servants will be seen as a kick in the teeth General (Mr Francis Maude): In May, we announced an for thousands of workers who have faced uncertainty immediate freeze on the use of consultants. Where there about their jobs over the past few years, and who face is an operational necessity and the work cannot be uncertainty in the future? carried out by in-house staff, any new consultancy spend above £20,000 a month must be signed off by a Mr Maude: It is precisely for that reason that I want Minister. In addition, all consultancy spend, whether to engage quickly with the unions to negotiate additional pre-existing or newly approved, must be re-approved on protection for low-paid workers. Contrary to general a rolling basis every three months. Processes are now in 933 Oral Answers14 JULY 2010 Oral Answers 934 place whereby both my right hon. Friend the Chief of volunteering. For example, school governor places Secretary and I must personally approve any request to remain vacant. Will he consider how we can break employ a consultant beyond nine months. down the barriers, whether regulatory or otherwise, that deter a broader number of people from coming forward Amber Rudd: I thank my right hon. Friend for that to volunteer, particularly in disadvantaged areas? answer. Has he considered the fact that by reducing the use of consultants, we will be able to help public servants Mr Letwin: The short answer to my hon. Friend’s to develop their own careers more successfully, and that question is yes. She is absolutely right that we need to that will have the added advantage of protecting jobs, break down those barriers, and my right hon. Friend because we can keep the work with them rather than the Secretary of State for Education is currently looking putting it out to consultants? at how we might do that. It is important to note that the accusation that is Mr Maude: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. sometimes made that school governors will need to have The excessive use of consultants—we discovered that Criminal Records Bureau checks is not correct. Unless there were 2,500 consultants embedded in Whitehall those governors are involved in working with children across Government—is not only expensive and a wasteful in school on a day-to-day basis, all that needs to be use of money but demoralising for mainstream civil checked is the list 99 bar. We are, of course, also looking servants, who feel that they are undervalued. By cutting at how we can reduce CRB checks to a common-sense back on the use of consultants we can begin to re-equip level and at the vetting and barring regime. I hope that the mainstream civil service with the professional skills all those things will help persuade people that it is well that it wants. worth doing important voluntary work. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Can Jane Ellison: All over the country this Sunday there the Minister assure the House that the Government will will be “big lunch” street parties, and Battersea is no not employ any consultants at all on the experimental exception. In my area it has been greatly facilitated by free market schools strategy at the Department for the council issuing a flat-rate charge for street closures Education? I am sure I heard a rumour that the Government with an easily completed form, and generally being had paid half a million pounds to the New Schools accommodating and encouraging. Does my right hon. Network. Friend agree that we should encourage all councils to do that? Mr Maude: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if there are any consultants being used, that will have been Mr Letwin: I congratulate my hon. Friend on her part signed off personally by a Minister in the Department in getting that to happen, and her council on taking that for Education and will be made public online shortly. admirable attitude. One reason why we are so keen to He should address his question to my colleagues in that decentralise and to give councils much more responsibility Department and scan the website for notification.