Thursday Volume 529 9 June 2011 No. 166

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 9 June 2011

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Learning has already written to schools, reminding House of Commons them of their statutory responsibilities under the new careers service as it develops.

Thursday 9 June 2011 Gordon Birtwistle: Does my right hon. Gentleman agree that careers advice should start at age 12, be delivered by experienced professional and independent The House met at half-past Ten o’clock advisers, and be available throughout every year of education? PRAYERS Vince Cable: Again, my colleague is absolutely right. The careers service is fundamentally important. My [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Department and, in particular, my colleague the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning are talking to careers professionals about how to roll out a properly accredited system of careers advice and, indeed, Oral Answers to Questions about co-locating careers advice with the Department for Work and Pensions and Jobcentre Plus in order to ensure that the service is properly integrated.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does the Secretary of State agree that Members should set an example to young people with an interest in manufacturing, The Secretary of State was asked— and will he encourage all Members from all parts to join the campaign Made by Britain, whereby we find innovative, Engineering and Manufacturing Careers imaginative and new products in every constituency in the country and put them in a virtual Crystal Palace to 1. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) show that we can still do manufacturing in this country? (LD): What steps he plans to take to encourage young people to take up careers in engineering and manufacturing. Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman has already described [57776] his scheme to me, and it sounds an exciting project. I have identified several potential candidates in my 8. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): What steps he constituency, and it sits alongside many other very good plans to take to encourage young people to take up initiatives that are taking place, including for example careers in engineering and manufacturing. [57784] the engineering prize, which is being launched with the support of leading UK companies. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): We are funding STEMNET, a Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I join the Secretary of programme that encourages young people to look at the State in welcoming the tremendous news this week of possibilities offered by science, technology, engineering the excellent investment from BMW Mini and Nissan. and mathematics—STEM—study and employment; That of course builds on the initiatives of the Automotive we are providing a £180 million package that will see Council, which has been so successful and was set up by 50,000 new higher apprenticeships in sectors including the previous Labour Government. Also set up by the STEM-related industries; and, of course, the main incentive previous Labour Government was Manufacturing Insight, is good manufacturing jobs, which is why I welcome the an organisation dedicated to bringing young people into announcements yesterday and today from Nissan and engineering and manufacturing, which this Government BMW of large new investments in British manufacturing have scrapped unfortunately. Why did the Secretary of industry. State make that decision?

Simon Hughes: I obviously welcome my right hon. Vince Cable: I am not sure I should take lectures on Friend’s interest in both areas and the interest of manufacturing industry from a representative of the organisations such as Engineering UK, which has a party that presided over the biggest decline in manufacturing fantastic route map on its website, showing exactly what of any major country, but none the less the hon. Gentleman one has to do to get from school into engineering. May is right that there are some good legacies. One of them I encourage Ministers, however, to work with the is the Automotive Council, which works extremely well Department for Education to ensure that, as part of the and contributes very positively to the supply chain. I engagement between employers and schools, we also welcome that. have one-to-one and face-to-face careers advice for school leavers, so that they receive personalised support Apprenticeships in the choices that they make? 2. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): What steps Vince Cable: Yes, my colleague is absolutely right. he is taking to reduce the burden of administration on Indeed, I was at the Royal Academy of Engineering employers offering to take on apprentices. [57777] during the week, talking about how we strengthen that interface between education and the engineering industry, The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong and as regards the careers service my colleague the Learning (Mr John Hayes): George Sand said: Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong “Simplicity is the most difficult thing to secure in this world”. 261 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 262

Nevertheless we are working with employers and their The potential for low-carbon industries comes not representatives to challenge the requirements and processes only from the green investment bank, important though imposed on employers taking on apprentices. We have that is, but from the skills base and getting businesses identified a number of areas where we will streamline or ready to take this opportunity. What are the Government remove unnecessary bureaucratic processes, demonstrating doing to ensure that throughout the UK the skills base that the Government are absolutely committed to beating will be there and business will be able to take advantage bureaucracy and to breaking down barriers wherever of the potential of the green investment bank—particularly, we find them. of course, when it is situated in Edinburgh?

David T. C. Davies: I thank the Minister very much for that. Does he agree that, to many people, high-quality Vince Cable: I know that the hon. Gentleman too has vocational courses will offer a far better route to gainful a long-standing and active involvement in environmental employment than a meaningless degree somewhere? issues. He is right to say that it is not simply a question of investment but of skills. That is why, as part of the expanded apprenticeship programme, we have specifically Mr Hayes: For too long we have assumed that the set aside resources for those working in the green economy, only route to accomplishment is through academic prowess. particularly regarding the skills that are required to I believe that practical, technical and vocational competence implement the green deal. not only serves economic need, but instils the purposeful pride that enriches lives, cements communities and builds a better Britain. Employment Law Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): A director of Sirus Automotive who lives in my constituency would like to 4. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What take on apprentices, but he has had his grant of £129,000 steps he is taking to ensure that employment law supports from Advantage West Midlands cut. Will the Secretary business competitiveness, job creation and sustainable of State look into that to see why, as this is committed economic growth. [57779] spending, his grant cannot be paid to him so that he can take on more apprentices? 11. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What Mr Hayes: I will be more than happy to look into that steps he is taking to ensure that employment law matter on behalf of the Secretary of State. It is absolutely supports business competitiveness, job creation and right that that where there are barriers of the kind that I sustainable economic growth. [57787] mentioned a moment ago, we identify and overcome them. I would be happy to talk to the hon. Lady on that basis. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): My Department Green Investment Bank is leading a comprehensive review of employment-related laws across Government to remove burdens from employers and ensure that our labour market operates effectively. 3. Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): How Our consultation on resolving workplace disputes, for many jobs in low-carbon industries he expects to be example, closed on 20 April, and we will be coming created by the actions of the green investment bank. forward with our proposals in the autumn. [57778]

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Alun Cairns: Does the Minister agree that there is a Skills (Vince Cable): The green investment bank will be need to reduce employment regulation following Lord a key element in financing investment in the green Young’s excellent report which talked about businesses economy. It is not possible to estimate the number of operating within a climate of fear; and what progress is green jobs it will help to create, but this sector in the UK he making in reducing red tape in general? is already substantial and employed around 910,000 people in 2008-09. A total of £3 billion of funding has been Mr Davey: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. made available to the green investment bank from 2012 I met Lord Young to discuss his views, and he explained and could mobilise an additional £15 billion in private that in his meetings with business people they talked sector investment. about the reality and the perception of red tape, particularly in relation to employment law. We are therefore tackling Simon Kirby: I thank my right hon. Friend for his both aspects with our proposals to reform employment answer. Will he consider locating the green investment tribunals, our moratorium for micros, and the review of bank in the most excellent city of Brighton and Hove? sickness absence and compliance and enforcement regimes. We also published the employers charter to show that Vince Cable: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. the legal position is not as frightening as some employment I know from other interventions of his deep and genuine lawyers would have firms believe. interest in environmental issues. We already have quite a long bidding list for cities that wish to attract the green investment bank, and I am very happy to add Brighton Julian Smith: Are other Departments fully engaged to it. with the employment law review? Which Minister is leading this across Departments? Does the Minister Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ agree that in order to address this issue fully we need all Co-op): The answer to the last question is no. Departments, not just BIS, to be engaged with it? 263 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 264

Mr Davey: I agree with my hon. Friend. We have Vince Cable: There is a lot of evidence that some written to other Departments that are going to work banks are genuinely trying to change their culture of with us on this. It is very important that it is a cross- lending. I referred to that point in a productive exchange Whitehall review, and it will last the whole Parliament in the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee yesterday. long because we are determined to make a real difference. The banks have come forward with a new code of practice to be operated through the British Bankers Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): On a Association, which allows, for example, for a banking day when BMW announces £500 million of investment ombudsman to deal with complaints of the kind to in Britain, safeguarding 6,000 jobs—the result of which the hon. Gentleman rightly referred. co-operation between the union Unite and a world-class company—is it not time for the Secretary of State to Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): stand up to his backwoodsman Back Benchers, who There is a genuinely difficult problem of trying to get would seek to demonise workers, and instead to celebrate highly over-extended banks to lend to small and medium- modern trade unionism as a force for good? sized businesses. The Secretary of State was very critical of the previous Government’s performance on this issue. Mr Davey: I think the hon. Gentleman is referring to He said that the banks ran rings around that Government. press reports of the speech by my right hon. Friend the Given that the first indications on Project Merlin show Secretary of State to the GMB. I am afraid that if he a £2.2 billion shortfall between what the banks are reads that speech he will see that my right hon. Friend doing and what the Government agreed they would do, repeated the Government’s line, which has been the case how would he describe the performance of his Government since we were elected, that we wish to engage positively on bank lending? with trade unions. That engagement is paying dividends. Vince Cable: Of the leading Merlin banks, two have Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Does the Minister met their targets, which demonstrates that the demand accept that it is counter-productive to create the impression is there for banks that are able and willing to change that things such as maternity rights, employment protection, their culture of lending. Of course, we have taken the the minimum wage and health and safety laws are previous Government’s arrangements further by bringing burdens on business and not essential to ensuring that private banks that are not owned wholly or partly by companies operate in the best interests not just of their the taxpayer into the agreement. They are undoubtedly balance sheet but of their workers? taking it seriously, and we are making it absolutely clear that we expect the agreement to be delivered and that the volume of lending to SMEs will increase. Mr Davey: I refer the hon. Lady to the consultation that we published just last month on modern workplaces. We wish to reform maternity and paternity law, which Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Will my right we believe will be a win-win for employees and employers. hon. Friend reassure us that he is ready to do a little It will produce better rights for families than the previous more than just monitor this situation? In particular, he Government provided, and provide more flexibility for should not allow banks to get away with the excuse that employees and employers so that they can have adult the demand is not there, when it is the price of the loan conversations about how such leave should be taken. and the terms attached to it that are so often too difficult for struggling small businesses who need the credit. Bank Lending (Small Businesses) Vince Cable: My hon. Friend is right that there is a problem of discouraged demand. We have just launched 5. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): What recent a major survey to drill down a little further into the assessment he has made of the level of lending by complex facts of bank lending and to find out how banks to small businesses. [57780] serious the problem of discouraged demand actually is. However, this is not just a question of monitoring the The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and situation. A key element of the Merlin agreement is that Skills (Vince Cable): Figures published in May by the senior executives in the banks will have their remuneration Bank of England show that the UK’s five largest banks linked to their performance on small business lending. I lent £16.8 billion to UK small and medium-sized enterprises am currently insisting that they provide more information in the first quarter. That fails to meet the targets in the about how those incentives work. Merlin agreement and is obviously disappointing. We will continue to monitor lending closely over the year. Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): We reserve the right to revisit the agreement if banks The Secretary of State must realise that the Merlin continue to miss the targets. agreement is a busted flush and that no good is coming from it. The continuing failure of the banking sector to Nigel Mills: Many small businesses in my constituency meet the minimum targets, meaning that there continues complain that when they ask banks about funding, they to be no new net lending, is really not acceptable. As the are told not to bother applying because it would only hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) has just attract interest in their existing facilities and that those said, the terms and conditions for the loans that are may well be withdrawn instead. What can the Government being made are often very penal. Can the Secretary of do to stop banks doing that and then claiming that they State get into that? There is no point in monitoring it; cannot meet the targets they have agreed to because of a we want him to examine what is going on and to come lack of applications? forward with concrete proposals to improve the situation. 265 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 266

Vince Cable: That is exactly what I am doing, as I Offenders (Skills) explained to the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden). Before the hon. Member 6. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) writes off What steps he plans to take to provide relevant skills to what we are doing, he should consider the undoubted offenders to enable them to find work when they leave benefits that have already flowed from it. The banks prison. [57782] have put £2.5 billion into the business growth fund to provide equity, which is the kind of issue that he was 16. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): What steps exercised about when he was a Treasury Minister. That he plans to take to provide offenders with relevant problem has now been dealt with. skills and training in order to help them find work when they leave prison. [57794] Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): The Forum of Private Business is calling for a return to the traditional bank The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong manager model, and some banks are in fact now doing Learning (Mr John Hayes): On 18 May, to great acclaim, that. What can we do to encourage banks to give small I launched “Making prisons work: skills for rehabilitation”, businesses individual attention, increase the autonomy the report on offender learning that I commissioned last of bank managers to make decisions and get rid of the summer. It sets out a substantial programme of reform culture of “computer says no”? to increase the positive impact of offender learning on reoffending rates and on former prisoners’ capacity to reintegrate successfully into civil society. Vince Cable: My colleague puts the point extremely well. What we are dealing with is not a short-term Mr Burrowes: The Minister will be aware of the good problem but the long-term issue of how to change the work of National Grid in providing work opportunities culture of banks. One bank in particular, Lloyds, which to offenders upon release. Does he recognise the common I think I mentioned yesterday, already has SME lending complaint that too many offenders have not been trained on its monthly board meeting agendas, and the system with the right work skills to make them employable on of incentives is being changed to create more of that release? What are the Government going to do about type of relationship management. Crucially, there are that? new banks entering the market that have exactly the focus that she describes. Competition, ultimately, will Mr Hayes: Yes, I do recognise that, which was why, in help to solve the problem in a major way. the review that I published, we put the emphasis on employability skills. For someone to leave the life of Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): We were told crime, another life must pay for them, which means that monitoring would be carried out with the assistance getting and keeping a job. I met National Grid this of the Bank of England, yet the Governor himself said week, actually, to discuss skills issues, and I congratulate in March: it on its work and my hon. Friend on championing the issue. “We’re not monitoring. What we are doing is putting up on our website the data that banks submit after a fairly cursory plausibility check.” Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that the longer the period for which an offender is able to benefit The Secretary of State also mentioned CEO pay, which from training programmes, the more likely it is that they we were told would be linked to the lending targets, yet can acquire the skills necessary to find work when they he failed to check how that would be delivered before he leave custody? finalised Merlin. Is it any wonder that the banks are already failing to meet their obligations, when the Secretary Mr Hayes: I learned early on never to stray outside of State waved through an agreement without teeth? my purview or pitch above my pay grade. Suffice it to say that progression is critical, so what people learn in Vince Cable: First, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman prison must be progressive. They must be able to take on his new role on the Front Bench. He is a very up and complete their studies when they leave, so that articulate commentator on economic matters, and I they can get qualified, get a job and get on. look forward to exchanging views with him. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): In The Bank of England plays an important role in the Strangeways, in my constituency, which I have no reason monitoring process. Of course the banks’ data are to think atypical, 80% of prisoners are illiterate. Would aggregated, but the Bank provides an independent not the biggest impact that this or any other Government assessment of progress under the agreement, which is could make be to have an intensive literacy programme important to the credibility of that agreement. Of course, for prisoners? That is the best way to get them back into it has pointed out that there has been a failure of work. lending in the first quarter. On the wider question of meeting lending objectives, Mr Hayes: Yes, I agree. If the hon. Gentleman studies we were assured when the Merlin agreement was signed my report, he will see that prior attainment tests, which that senior executives’ incentives would mean that their ensure that what we do in prisons matches real need, remuneration was significantly greater than the share of and the concentration on core skills that he describes, small business lending on their balance sheets. We are are critical in ensuring value for money, but also in now trying to establish in detail exactly what that means ensuring that people get value from what we spend. I for individuals, and we have insisted that more lending agree that core skills are critical, and they will form an be forthcoming. important part of what we do from now on. 267 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 268

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) growth, because of the stimulus it provides to demand (PC): Citizens advice bureaux have successfully piloted in green activities. However, energy intensive industries financial capability projects to aid the rehabilitation are also an important part of our economy. process. What plans does the Minister have to roll out that provision, because it could play a vital role in Tom Greatrex: The Secretary of State referred in his reducing reoffending rates? answer to the contribution that traditional heavy industries such as the Clydebridge steelworks in my constituency, Mr Hayes: I suspect that the hon. Gentleman has which manufactures significant components of offshore studied that matter rather closely. If he would like to wind turbines, can make to green investment. However, come and speak to me and my colleagues about that given his comments, what reassurances can he give to particular aspect of offender learning, I would be happy the House that the introduction of measures such as the for him to do so. He is right that those life skills, as well carbon floor price will not disadvantage energy-intensive as the core skills and the employability skills that we industries, which could have a significant effect on have described in this short discussion, enable people to green growth in the economy? reintegrate into civil society in a way that is good for them, but also good for all of us because we must tackle Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right recidivism. to draw attention to that problem. I have had extensive discussions with the steel industry, and also with the Bank Lending (Retford) ceramics and chemicals industries, which can be affected by precisely that problem. My colleague the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change made it clear 7. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What discussions he in his recent statement that we are looking at a package has had with representatives of banks on the performance of measures, in consultation with industry, that will of banks in lending to businesses (a) in Retford and hopefully help it to deal with the higher costs of electricity. (b) nationally. [57783] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and The Secretary of State recently announced the green Skills (Vince Cable): I regularly have discussions with investment bank, but obviously the capitalisation amounts senior representatives from all the major banks, as well are very small. Will he assure the House that small as smaller and specialised lenders, at which we discuss companies in Thirsk, Malton and elsewhere will qualify their lending to small businesses, but sadly, not yet in for capital loans from the green investment bank? Retford. Vince Cable: I would not regard £3 billion as a small John Mann: As the Secretary of State knows, Retford capitalisation—it is very substantial, and hopefully it is the barometer of his Government’s success or failure will mobilise an additional £15 billion in this Parliament with the economy and the news is not good, because from the private sector. There is a question over how we small businesses are being bled dry by the banks, which develop the capacity of that bank, but the hon. Lady is are failing to lend. When they do lend, they do so at right that we must take account of the ability of small excessive costs, including the excessive use of invoice companies to participate in the supply chains of the big financing. It will be too late for small businesses if the bids that will undoubtedly be made under the GIB Secretary of State does not wake up and do something proposals. about that as they will go out of business. What will he do? Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): Our embryonic solar power industry has huge concerns Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman’s constituency may about the Government’s current policy on feed-in tariffs. well be a barometer of Government performance, but If the Minister cannot assure me that he has consulted he has obviously overlooked the fact that in it, 19 businesses industry representatives, will he consult them? were offered loans, backed by the enterprise finance guarantee, totalling almost £2 million. That is help in a Vince Cable: I have had consultations with the industry, purely practical sense. although of course the primary responsibility rests with The hon. Gentleman makes a specific point on types my colleagues in the Department of Energy and Climate of financing. Because of the difficulties of lending Change. There is a particular problem with the large-scale against property, the emergence of forms of lending solar power suppliers because of the subsidy element against assets or future transactions is actually a positive and the ability of Government to continue to support diversification of finance. it, but certainly small-scale solar providers are helped under the feed-in tariff arrangements and we are looking at the wider implications for the industry. Green Investment Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Does the Secretary of 9. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) State share my concern that the large-scale bioethanol (Lab/Co-op): What assessment he has made of the plant in my constituency has been taken offline for a potential effect on economic growth of green investment; number of months, and will he do everything that he and if he will make a statement. [57785] can to support the anti-dumping action being taken by the bioethanol industry? Will he also ensure that the The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Department for Transport does not repeat the mistakes Skills (Vince Cable): The green economy will make a of the previous Government in dragging its feet on major contribution in the longer term to economic implementing renewable fuel obligations? 269 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 270

Vince Cable: My colleague has been assiduous in shredded by two thirds? Now it is too little, too late, as supporting this important activity in his constituency. local enterprise companies have been denied RDA assets I am well aware of the problem, which is low-cost or proper bid resources, in whole areas of England ethanol coming from the United States and apparent small businesses have been excluded from a 10-times dumping practices—although that remains to be established. oversubscribed first round, and no extra money has been I have made representations to the European Union, put in the budget—we would have given £200 million which of course deals with trade policy matters, to more from a bankers’ bonus tax. The rejection letter ensure that this is properly dealt with under our trade that nine out of 10 RGF applicants received from the policy instruments. Department told them that they could “request limited feedback on your unsuccessful bid”. Regional Growth Fund What new limited feedback will the Minister’s officials have for those missing out this time? 10. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): What progress has been made on the second Mr Prisk: I have already spelled out to the House the round of allocations from the regional growth fund; opportunity for prospective bidders to make applications and if he will make a statement. [57786] to renew their bids, and they are doing that now. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman thinks that that does not The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation have any merit. It is fascinating to be criticised by the and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): The second round of the Opposition for going too fast. The first round was regional growth fund is worth just under £1 billion and successful, and we levered in some £2.5 billion of private bids must be received before 1 July 2011. Applicants are sector investment—a 5:1 ratio on public investment. If able to attend a series of road shows, which offer the Labour party is not happy with that, it needs to specific advice and support to prospective bidders. These re-examine its priorities. road shows have been well subscribed with some 1,100 people already having applied. British Manufacturers Emma Reynolds: I thank the Minister for that answer. The black country did not receive a single penny from 12. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What steps the first round of the regional growth fund, and smaller he is taking to support British manufacturers. [57789] regional development agency grants have been withdrawn. Can he reassure me that the needs of local businesses in The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation the black country will be taken into account in the and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): The coalition Government second round? passionately believe that modern manufacturing is vital if we are to grow and rebalance the economy. That is Mr Prisk: I cannot pre-empt the panel’s decisions, why, for example, we are investing more than £50 million because they must be based on merit, but I am sure that in the manufacturing advisory service; substantially some excellent bids will come from the black country expanding the number of apprenticeships, as the Secretary area. I encourage the hon. Lady and applicants from of State pointed out; and actively backing manufacturing the area to speak to the RGF team to enable them to research and development through our £200 million hone their applications and ensure that they have a programme of technology innovation centres. strong chance in the second round. Chris Skidmore: Next week marks the topping-out Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Despite backing ceremony for the first building at the Bristol and Bath from the local enterprise company, a bid submitted by science park, which is a £300 million high-value CP Holdings, the Sir Trevor Osborne property group, to manufacturing centre in my constituency that will generate the first round of the regional growth fund, supported more than 5,000 new jobs. Will the Minister congratulate by Derbyshire county council and High Peak borough the science park on its current progress? What assurances council, was rejected—in my view incorrectly. What can the Government give the park that we are absolutely support and help are available now as the group bids in committed to high-value manufacturing? the second round to restore The Crescent, which is a grade I listed building in Buxton, and turn it into what Mr Prisk: I am delighted to be able to do that. In fact, would be Britain’s first and only genuine spa hotel, I was able to do so earlier this week, when the Department creating employment and wider economic benefits across launched a new showcasing of composite technology. the area? The national composites centre based at the science park in my hon. Friend’s constituency is an excellent Mr Prisk: My private office might be less than happy example of UK technological excellence. We have invested if I suggest I should visit, so I probably should not, but £16 million in that centre, and it has our full support I can say that it sounds like an important bid. It also and encouragement. sounds as if improvements were needed for the second round, and I encourage the applicants—perhaps Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There are clearly accompanied by my hon. Friend—to talk to the RGF changing economic times right across the United Kingdom. team so that they can hone their bid and the spa can be What help is there for the British manufacturing industry successful in the future. to take advantage of new green opportunities? Harland and Wolff in Belfast has invested £17 billion in marine Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): Has wind turbines. Can the Minister assure us that what has not the regional growth fund story so far been one of happened at Harland and Wolff can happen across the too far, too fast, with the RDAs scrapped and funding United Kingdom? 271 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 272

Mr Prisk: Absolutely. The point is that we are not The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong only seeking to invest through technology innovation Learning (Mr John Hayes): In the Budget, we announced centres but ensuring that our investment in, as it were, a further 40,000 apprenticeship places targeted at young the software—the staff, the apprenticeships and the unemployed people. That will be the catalyst for sustained skills—is brought together. That combination of work joint working by the National Apprenticeship Service and on the technological side and in skills is crucial. Harland Jobcentre Plus to maximise apprenticeship opportunities and Wolff is a good example. through contact with employers and client referral.

Tata Plant (Scunthorpe) Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): With business organisations and colleges in Great Yarmouth and Norwich doing their best for people in Norfolk and Great Yarmouth, 13. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What steps he what can the Minister do to ensure that the most plans to take to support those affected by job losses at disadvantaged people there continue to have good access the Tata plant in Scunthorpe. [57791] to community learning?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Mr Hayes: I am pleased to be able to tell my hon. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): Of course, we Friend in the House that the National Apprenticeship were very disappointed to hear the news. It will be a Service will be delivering training on apprenticeships to worrying time for the workers affected, but I reassure Jobcentre Plus staff in Great Yarmouth on 22 June. I the hon. Gentleman that the Jobcentre Plus rapid response would like to invite him to be there on that occasion to service and the Skills Funding Agency are working with see just how we can make available to people the kind of Tata Steel to support workers at the Scunthorpe plant. opportunities that he has championed with such vehemence.

Nic Dakin: I thank the Minister for his response. It Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): What is would be good if he or the Secretary of State could the Minister’s strategy for getting more girls into come to Scunthorpe to see the situation first hand. Will apprenticeships in science, engineering and technology, the Government be bidding for European globalisation where they are woefully under-represented? adjustment funds, for which the situation in Scunthorpe is eligible? Mr Hayes: I share the hon. Lady’s concern about that, and I have met the National Apprenticeship Service specifically to discuss opportunities for girls in such Mr Davey: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his subjects. She will know that the wage return on efforts. He has met the Minister of State, Department apprenticeships in those areas tends to be higher than in for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the other areas, so there is an added disadvantage to the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), and I fact that young women tend not to go into STEM am sure that he welcomed the announcement by my subjects—science, technology, engineering and maths. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State of the taskforce, I am working on that, and will report back to the House on which the hon. Gentleman is serving. It is for the further on progress. taskforce to come up with ideas not just for the regional growth fund but for European funding. If the taskforce 15. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): What assessment can put together a bid, I am sure that it will get the he has made of the potential effect on economic growth Department’s support. of the provision of apprenticeship places; and if he will make a statement. [57793] Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Members of Parliament across north Lincolnshire are working together The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong closely on this important issue, which affects all of our Learning (Mr John Hayes): Our research suggests that constituents. Does it not demonstrate that the creation completed intermediate and advanced apprenticeships of a pan-Humber local enterprise partnership, which both deliver net economic benefits in excess of £100,000 was recently agreed, is a positive step forward? We now over the learner’s lifetime. The 170,000 apprentices who need to send in our application and hopefully get started in 2008-09 will therefore generate an additional Government approval for this pan-Humber LEP in £13 billion for the economy over their working lives. order to support the renewables industry. Bill Esterson: The National Foundation for Educational Mr Davey: We were delighted to be able to announce Research has shown that the young apprenticeships yesterday the decision on a new Humber estuary local scheme has been highly successful when it comes to enterprise partnership, which I am sure will play a GCSE results and progress into further education, training positive role. I am sure that my hon. Friend would not and, crucially, apprenticeships. If the Minister agrees expect me to say whether the enterprise zone will be that apprenticeships are such an important part of awarded, but clearly the taskforce and the LEP are in a economic growth, will he reconsider the Government’s good position to represent that area. decision to scrap the highly successfully young apprenticeships scheme, which is good for young people and the economy? Apprenticeships Mr Hayes: The hon. Gentleman is a diligent member 14. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): What of the Select Committee on Education, and he will have steps he is taking to help young unemployed people heard me say to that Committee just yesterday that I am find apprenticeship places. [57792] keen to ensure that the best of what we had in the young 273 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 274 apprenticeships scheme is carried forward in ongoing Mr Hayes: The hon. Lady highlighted these matters work. There were cost-effectiveness issues, as I am sure in an Adjournment debate, as the whole House will he would acknowledge, but employers, learners and know, and she has made a consistent case on the subject. parents say that there was good value in some of what I did indeed ask for a further impact assessment, because the scheme did. We will take note of that and move I want to be sure that what we are doing is fair as well as forward on that basis. cost-effective. We will bring the results of that assessment to the House before the summer. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The issue of apprenticeships is important for the whole House, and Part-time University Course Fees for that reason the Backbench Business Committee has at short notice scheduled a debate on apprenticeships 19. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): By this afternoon. Does the Minister welcome the fact that how much on average he expects fees for part-time the issue will be debated this afternoon? university courses to change between 2011-12 and 2012-13. [57797] Mr Hayes: Any opportunity that this House provides me to champion the cause of apprenticeships is to be The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David celebrated, and celebrated this afternoon it will be. Willetts): The majority of institutions have not yet set their fees for part-time courses for 2012-13, so it is too Mr Speaker: We are all delighted to bring a bit of joy early to tell what average fees will be. From September into the Minister’s life. 2012, eligible new part-time students will have access to loans to cover the cost of their tuition—extra support for part-time students that has been widely welcomed. Adult Learning Provision Kate Green: I welcome the introduction of loans for 17. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What steps part-time students, but for lone parents that often means he plans to take to target adult learning provision on the loss of income support as a result. Moreover, they those who most need support. [57795] will be required to begin repaying those loans before they have completed their academic studies. Will the The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Minister look again at the proposals, to ensure that no Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is a joy to answer successive lone parent is financially disadvantaged and put in the questions, Mr Speaker. position of being unable to complete their course? Support for those in greatest need is the key priority Mr Willetts: Our proposal has been widely welcomed. for this Government and our skills strategy. We have We believe that the number of people who will benefit protected funding for basic skills and provision for the from support while they are engaged in part-time study unemployed, we have targeted entitlements to help those will increase from 60,000 to 175,000. Of course, people in most need, and we are reforming adult and community will repay their loans only when they are earning more learning to engage better with disadvantaged people. than £21,000 a year.

Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Can my right One of the most disadvantaged groups of people in hon. Friend tell the House whether the Office for Fair society are those who were failed by the academic Access has the power to block fee levels set by universities system in their youth. This Government have set their if they do not agree to access targets? stall out to ensure greater social mobility. What will my hon. Friend do to ensure that those in that group fulfil Mr Willetts: The Office for Fair Access has the power their potential under his plans for the future? to refuse to permit fees higher than £6,000 if it believes that a university is not doing everything possible to Mr Hayes: This Government, against all expectations broaden access and if it is not satisfied with its access and in the most difficult financial circumstances, protected agreement. the budget for adult and community learning. It is no wonder that Alan Tuckett of the National Institute of Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Fees Adult Continuing Education said: for part-time students are set to rise significantly, and there is growing concern that the quality of higher “The adult and community learning safeguard is a key platform on which the Big Society can be built.” education in our universities will suffer as Government cuts begin to bite. The Public Accounts Committee has This Government, true to their word, defended adult confirmed this week that the Government’s sums no learning—the people’s policy, the people’s Minister, and longer add up, and a considerable number of would-be the people’s party. students are likely to be turned away from university this summer because of Government cuts in student Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): The Minister places. The Government are chaotic, incoherent and has said that it is a key priority for this Government to incompetent. Are we not now watching “Fawlty Towers” provide support to those most in need. Sadly, the changes in Whitehall, with the Minister and his boss the Basil to funding for ESOL—English for speakers of other and Manuel of the Government? languages—will take support away from those most in need. The Government have promised an equality impact Mr Willetts: Let us be clear: the previous Government assessment. When will we see it, and if it is as bad as were planning cuts in higher education support. Under many of us fear, will he delay the proposed changes? our plans, there will be extra cash going into universities 275 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 276 by the end of the public spending period, compared Then he was offered the job of running it, and said that with the amount going in now, and it will be going into it would be the Department for growth. How is the the universities based on the choices of students and the Department for growth getting on? courses that they wish to study. That is the right way for money to reach the universities. The hon. Gentleman Vince Cable: The Department for growth is getting should recognise the importance of a vision of universities on extremely well. The right hon. Gentleman seems to that provides extra cash and respects student choice and have forgotten that a change took place after 2006, and the autonomy of the universities. that my Department was amalgamated with the one that he used to run. He might want to speculate as to why we took it under our wing. Certainly, growth is Topical Questions taking place. There is rapid growth now beginning to take place in manufacturing and exports. That is a T1. [57801] Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) consequence of this Government’s determination (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental simultaneously to get on top of the fiscal deficit and to responsibilities. rebalance the economy, and that is happening.

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Mr Denham: Actually, the old DTI was merged with Skills (Vince Cable): My Department has a key role in my Department. The truth is that in the past year the supporting the rebalancing of the economy and business Office for Budget Responsibility has lowered its growth to deliver growth while increasing skills and learning. forecast three times, long-term unemployment has been at its highest since 1997, retail sales are down, construction Jack Dromey: The Government are forcing Advantage is in the doldrums and consumer confidence has been at West Midlands to engage in a fire sale of £108 million-worth record lows. Is it not the truth that the Business Secretary of assets. They are blocking councils from gaining those has wrecked support for the regions, cut consumer assets and barring local enterprise partnerships from protection when prices are raising ahead of wages, retaining them, yet they have seen fit to gift Boris talked tough and delivered nothing on bank lending, Johnson with London Development Agency assets. Why bungled higher education and produced a growth plan can they not do the same for high-need, high-unemployment so unconvincing that it is being rewritten as we speak? Birmingham? The Business Secretary is wrong, is he not, to think that his Department cannot make a difference. It could. It is not just the Chancellor who needs a plan B, is it? Vince Cable: There is no fire sale of regional development agency assets. There was always a process of disposal of those assets by the RDAs themselves, and roughly Vince Cable: The right hon. Gentleman has a short 20% of their assets are likely to be sold. The others are memory. He does not seem to appreciate that the failed being passed on through the different channels, which model of growth that we inherited was not simply a the hon. Gentleman knows about. question of the budget deficit, as we had a massive problem with consumer debt, which inhibits consumption; T2. [57802] Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): we had a massive property bubble, which collapsed; and The Minister will be aware of the outstanding Truro we had a banking system, the largest in the developed and Penwith college, which is based in my constituency. world, that collapsed on us—and we are having to dig In recognising the new opportunities to expand its our way out. A major rebalancing of the economy is provision of higher education, he will also be aware of having to take place. It is difficult, it is painful, but as I the constraints on the ability of further education colleges said in response to the earlier question, that rebalancing to award degrees. At the moment, they need a university is now occurring through the growth of manufacturing partner. What support can he offer to excellent FE and exports and through business investment, which is colleges to enable them to award high-quality degrees? where it needs to be.

The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David T4. [57804] Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) Willetts): I support the excellent work of FE colleges in (Con): Small businesses are the engine of growth and providing higher education in Cornwall and elsewhere. jobs for our economy, and all the time that owners and I am concerned, as is the Secretary of State, by reports managers spend dealing with red tape is time taken that some universities might be threatening to end their away from expanding their businesses, so what have partnerships with FE colleges without good reason, but the Government done to reduce regulation on small I reassure my hon. Friend that FE colleges are indeed businesses? eligible to apply for their own degree-awarding powers. In addition, our White Paper will propose making it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, easier for FE colleges to access a wider range of external Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I assure the degrees. hon. Gentleman that we are spending a huge amount of time on tackling red tape through the red tape challenge, Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I and I can report to the House a little victory. On bank welcome the good news from Nissan and BMW, which, holiday Monday, I attended the EU Competitiveness despite the Secretary of State’s curmudgeonly response, Council to argue for an exemption for micro-entities built on Labour’s support for those companies’ investment from various accounting rules under an EU directive. I in the UK. In 2006, he was very clear when he said: am sure that the House will be pleased to know that “The DTI, and its army of Sir Humphreys, should be scrapped.” that exemption passed the Council. 277 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 278

T3. [57803] Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): According The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong to the Office of Fair Trading, self-regulation of debt Learning (Mr John Hayes): As the House knows, this management companies is not working. Does the Minister was a contentious issue, but I was able to bring together agree that it is time for the Government to act to protect all the parties involved and they acted with professionalism, vulnerable consumers? goodwill and good faith. This week the Institute for Learning announced that, with the support of the trade Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. He unions and the employers—the colleges—a settlement knows that I met him and other members of the all-party has been reached. I know what you are thinking, group on debt and personal finance to discuss that very Mr Speaker: “Blessed are the peacemakers.” issue. He will know of my concern about it, which was shared across the meeting. When we respond to the call T7. [57807] Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) for evidence on consumer debt and personal solvency, (Lab/Co-op): Is the Minister aware that many thousands we will have a lot to say about that very issue. of jobs in Scotland depend on defence contracts? What steps is he taking to ensure that the present constitutional T5. [57805] Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) uncertainty in Scotland does not undermine the ability (Con): We all welcome the fantastic news from Nissan of Scottish firms to bid for Ministry of Defence work? and BMW, but we want to see automotive investment in the west midlands. Will the Minister assure the House Mr Prisk: Both my Department and the MOD are that he and his officials are doing all that they can to mindful of the importance of the long-term contracts attract automotive investment into the west midlands? to which the hon. Gentleman refers. We are working hard on that, and we have no intention of being distracted. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I am delighted to be able to Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Every day by which give my hon. Friend that assurance. He is an assiduous the creation of a groceries code adjudicator is delayed is campaigner for the automotive industry in the sector. I a further day on which farmers, growers and food am meeting him and other Members in a week or so to producers in this country and in the developing world discuss the issue. It is important to remember that we go to the wall. What reassurance can Ministers give me have seen improvements in the investment for Jaguar and, indeed, the House that they will make every effort Land Rover, that discussions are going further forward to ensure that a proposal which has cross-party support and that investment in 1,500 skilled engineering jobs is implemented as quickly as possible? has taken place. What matters in that context is remembering that under the last Labour Government, 1.7 million people came out of the manufacturing work Mr Davey: My hon. Friend, who has campaigned so force—a change that we need to bear in mind when we vigorously and successfully on this issue, will be delighted hear criticism from Opposition Members. to know that we published the draft Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill just before the recent recess. We hope that it will be scrutinised by the Select Committee and T6. [57806] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Given the public outrage at the “quick buck” strategy at will attract interest across the House, and we hope to Southern Cross, the Financial Times says that the future introduce the formal Bill on the basis of that scrutiny. of 31,000 elderly people is in jeopardy. Will the Secretary of State investigate the conduct of the directors and T8. [57808] Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) consider whether regulation should be extended to ensure (Lab/Co-op): May I return the Minister to the issue of the financial stability of companies that care for our regional development agency asset sales, about which parents and our relatives? there is considerable concern in my constituency and throughout the north-west? Can he answer the Vince Cable: My colleague the Secretary of State for question put to him earlier by my hon. Friend the Health has made it absolutely clear that no resident, Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey)? whether publicly funded or self-funding, will be left If assets can be gifted to Boris Johnson and London, homeless or without care. In other words, the residents why can they not be gifted to the rest of the country? will be given priority and the Government have taken the responsibility to ensure that they are protected. As Mr Prisk: Let me clarify the position. The London to the company itself, it had a long-standing failed Development Agency had already been merged into the business model. The Minister of State, my hon. Friend Greater London Authority, so the process position was the Member for South Holland and The Deepings very different from that involving the RDAs. We have (Mr Hayes) has been in touch with the banks to ensure ensured that we are able to represent that. I understand that the their credit is properly managed in this critical the concern, but we are working with local enterprise period so that it happens in an orderly way. There is no partnerships, local authorities and local businesses to way in which we can bail out the company, but I have ensure that they are involved in the regenerations. I have asked my officials to look carefully at the business discussed the issue with a number of the hon. Gentleman’s models of companies that provide public services to hon. Friends who have constituency interests in it, and ensure that they are stable and that the responsible I continue to listen to and work closely with them. sector regulators are able to act appropriately. Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): May I ask the T10. [57810] Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Secretary of State to look into the Edexcel science Crayford) (Con): Can my hon. Friend update the modules taken by young pupils? Some of those modules House on the agreement reached about Institute for are seriously flawed, which may put people off studying Learning membership fees? science and technology for life. 279 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 280

Mr Willetts: I will undertake to discuss the matter whose events reach over 10,000 students, with funding with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for of less than £9 per student drawn from charitable Education, because my hon. Friend is absolutely right. and business sponsors. Will he learn from the success of We do wish to encourage young people to study science this initiative as a model for the online engagement of at school, college and university. students with the futures they could realise through science, technology, engineering and maths? Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Growth, which was mentioned earlier, does not seem to be Mr Willetts: That is a very imaginative suggestion happening in the north-east of England. Workers at the which I certainly undertake to pursue—and will, perhaps, H A Interiors factory in my constituency have not been discuss at the Cheltenham science festival this paid for nine weeks— although I understand that they weekend. were paid their April wages yesterday; I will have to check that. Can the Minister help the company in any way? At least under Labour the workers got their pay. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): One in 10 people in the north-west of England work in manufacturing, whereas just 3% in London work in manufacturing. The Mr Prisk: I have already corresponded with the hon. sharp fall in the purchasing managers index last month Gentleman on the matter. He is right: we should be showed that all may not be well with UK manufacturing. concerned first and foremost with the welfare of the Will the Secretary of State or the Minister therefore workers and their families. I strongly emphasise the confirm that UK Trade & Investment will publish annually need to ensure that ACAS continues to be involved in the regional impact of its work, so that we can be sure the process. I hope that my letter to the hon. Gentleman that Government policy works for all economies in and the news that some of the first payments have Britain? apparently been made will prove encouraging, but let us keep the dialogue going. Mr Prisk: We will go further than that: we are making sure that UKTI is focused like a laser on small businesses Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I draw Members’ in the manufacturing sector. That is why we are changing attention to my registered interest in small businesses. the budget and the structure, and making sure that in The enterprise investment scheme, which was introduced the regions outside the south-east there is a strong by the last Government and has been greatly enhanced network—a strong set of roots—so that we can support by the present Government, has increased investment in manufacturing more effectively than the Labour party our early-stage businesses, largely because it provided did in 12 years in office. tax relief for equity investors. Will Ministers consider discussing with Treasury officials whether similar tax incentives can be provided for debt investment in venture Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I recently met capital and early-stage businesses? business leaders from the Coventry and Warwickshire chamber of commerce. They are extremely heartened by the current review of regulation and red tape, but Mr Prisk: We have made important reforms to the they are keen to know when there will be tangible EIS. The technical reform to which my hon. Friend has changes. Will the Minister therefore tell the businesses referred has been and continues to be examined, but no in my constituency when they can expect to see tangible decisions have been made. progress from this welcome review?

Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Mr Prisk: I will be delighted to do so. Not only have We have heard from the Secretary of State’s own mouth we got the moratorium exempting small businesses that Project Merlin has fallen at the first hurdle. We also from future regulation, but we have cut by 70% down to now know that one of the promoters of the business 46 the 157 proposals, many of them legacies from the growth fund, Santander, has withdrawn from the fund. past Government, and only 11 of them will cost business What impact will that have on Project Merlin, on the anything at all. We are ending the gold-plating of business growth fund, and on growth and investment in e-regulations, and we are changing the approach so that the United Kingdom? we sunset regulation in the future. Each of those steps will make a difference, and I will make sure that we Vince Cable: The business growth fund is an extremely report back to the House each and every year. promising initiative, filling a gap in capital markets that has been left empty pretty much since the 1920s: the Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Back in provision of equity for rapid growth mid-cap funds. February, the House debated the problems caused by The £2.5 billion fund is committed to by the main high-cost credit and agreed to consider a cap on the cost banks, and Santander wishes to pursue its own initiative, of credit. Following that, 15 MPs from across the which is additional to the fund. The business growth House wrote to the Minister responsible asking for a fund is a great success. It was launched in Birmingham—I meeting to discuss how we might take that decision was there a few weeks ago—and it will achieve a lot for forward. Five months later, during the recess, he responded, British industry. stating that he was too busy to meet us. As the number of people borrowing from these companies rises in all Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I noted the Business our constituencies every month, will the Secretary of Secretary’s earlier answer citing the STEMNET project. State show some respect for the House and respond to I hope he is also aware of the work of I’mascientist.org.uk, this legitimate issue by agreeing to meet us? 281 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 282

Mr Davey: May I congratulate the hon. Lady on for which I asked, but that I have met other Members of being the Member of Parliament who wants to meet me the House from the coalition parties who are campaigning more frequently than any other? She omitted to tell the on this issue, such as my hon. Friend the Member for House not only that I have met her twice and that she Chippenham (Duncan Hames) and the hon. Member failed to provide the evidence backing up her arguments for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson). 283 9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 284

Business of the House who has lived in the same two-bedroom house all her life now faces having her housing benefit cut, and may therefore be forced to move? If that is the case, where 11.33 am will she be expected to move to? The National Housing Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader Federation says that while 180,000 social tenants in of the House give us the business for next week? England are “under-occupying” two-bedroom homes, only 68,000 one-bedroom social homes become available The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George for letting each year. Young): The business for next week is as follows: Following Tuesday’s written statement on the crisis at MONDAY 13 JUNE—Remaining stages of the Welfare Southern Cross, it was reported yesterday that 3,000 jobs Reform Bill (Day 1). are to go there. May we have an oral statement so that the large number of elderly people who depend on these TUESDAY 14 JUNE—Consideration in Committee of homes for their care can be reassured that they will be the Armed Forces Bill. looked after come what may? WEDNESDAY 15 JUNE—Remaining stages of the Welfare When will we have an oral statement on the changes Reform Bill (Day 2). to the Health and Social Care Bill that the Prime THURSDAY 16 JUNE—Remaining stages of the Armed Minister saw fit to announce this week at Ealing hospital, Forces Bill. rather than to the House? Can the Leader of the House FRIDAY 17 JUNE—Private Members’ Bills. give us a very simple assurance? Can he tell us that the The provisional business for the week commencing Bill will be sent back to Committee in this House, so 20 June will include: that we can consider the proposals in detail? It would be unacceptable to do anything else. MONDAY 20 JUNE—Second Reading of the Pensions Bill [Lords]. Given the extensive briefing from No. 10 this week on sentencing policy, when will the Justice Secretary come TUESDAY 21 JUNE—Remaining stages of the Scotland to the House to confirm that he has now been overruled Bill. by the Prime Minister and that his plans for a 50% reduction WEDNESDAY 22 JUNE—Opposition day (18th allotted in sentence length for all those who plead guilty early, day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. including to sexual offences and violent crime, have Subject to be announced. been scrapped? When he does come here, can he try to THURSDAY 23 JUNE—Business nominated by the explain why the Prime Minister thought this was a good Backbench Business Committee. idea in the first place? I should also like to inform the House that the business Now that the Public Accounts Committee has confirmed in Westminster Hall for Thursday 16 and 23 June 2011 that the Government have made a complete mess of will be: university funding, in particular with their gross THURSDAY 16 JUNE—A debate on student visas. underestimation of what universities would charge, when are we going to have a statement from the Minister for THURSDAY 23 JUNE—A debate on the private finance Universities and Science about what he proposes to do ? initiative. When he gives his statement, perhaps he could explain why the long-promised White Paper has now taken Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Leader of the longer to gestate than a donkey, which takes 365 days, House for that reply. Given his reputation as a reformer, on average, and almost as long as a camel, which takes I was surprised, and I am sure that view is shared by 400 days? It is no wonder that the academics of Oxford the Procedure Committee, by the Government’s rather have no confidence in the Minister. dismissive response to its report on ministerial statements. Never mind, because the Backbench Business Committee Talking of shy and overdue White Papers, back in can come to the rescue by giving the House the chance February the Prime Minister proclaimed: to vote on the proposals, so will the Leader of the “We will soon publish a White Paper setting out our approach House join me in encouraging the Committee to find to public service reform...that will signal the decisive end of the time for that to happen? old-fashioned, top-down…model.” I come now to the forthcoming business and, in Bold words those, “soon” and “decisive”. What has particular, next week’s remaining stages of the Welfare happened? Nothing. First, this was put off until May Reform Bill. On 24 March, I asked the Leader of the and now we hear that it has been delayed until July House for an assurance that the regulations would because of another coalition split. One Lib Dem official appear in good time. He said in reply that has very helpfully said: “we will seek to publish the appropriate regulations well in “Nick does not want there to be any sense that the public advance so that the House has an opportunity to reflect on sector can’t be a provider of good quality public services”. them.”—[Official Report, 24 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 1100.] I think we can all feel another pause coming on. We are now two working days away from Report and we Finally, Baroness Thatcher famously possessed no still have no policy and no regulations on how the costs reverse gear, but this Prime Minister has a car stuffed of child care are going to be covered within the universal full of them and a pause gear as well, as we have seen on credit. What does the Leader of the House intend to do school sport, forests, the NHS and now sentencing. But about this? it does make us wonder what exactly goes on inside Following Lord Freud’s comments this week that No. 10 when the Prime Minister approves all these spare bedrooms for people in social housing are a policies in the first place only to reverse in the opposite luxury, can we have a statement from the Work and direction, scattering his Cabinet colleagues along the Pensions Secretary so that he can confirm that a widow way, when his pollsters tell them just how unpopular 285 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 286

[Hilary Benn] but one could turn the coin over and say that in a Parliament in which no one party has a majority, there they are. So after yet another week of chaos from this is much less likelihood of that happening. coalition, is it any wonder that the Archbishop of Canterbury is now on his knees in despair? Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does the Leader of the House agree that the Procedure Committee’s report on the use of hand-held devices in Parliament is Sir George Young: May I commend the shadow Leader a matter that should be debated sooner rather than of the House for a much better performance at the later? Does he also agree that such a debate should not Dispatch Box than the leader of his party yesterday? On depend on the vagaries of the amount of time available the Procedure Committee’s report on statements, the to the Backbench Business Committee and that if necessary, Government have, as he said, responded. I will not be the Government should provide time to enable the going personally to the salon to bid for a debate but I House to reach an early decision? would welcome a debate on statements. We have made more statements to the House than the previous Sir George Young: I understand my right hon. Friend’s Government—about 30% more on average—we have anxiety and that the gun has been jumped on the use of been very open with ministerial statements and we have hand-held devices in the Chamber in advance of any responded with enthusiasm to urgent questions. decision, in that certain Members have already made I will share with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of use of that facility. Having implemented the Wright State for Work and Pensions the point that the right Committee’s recommendations and having allocated to hon. Gentleman raised about the regulations. I anticipated the Backbench Business Committee time that would that the bulk of them would have been tabled, but if otherwise have been available to the Government, I am some have not been I shall take that up with my right very reluctant to then find more time for Select Committee hon. Friend straight away. reports out of the finite time left to the Government, On the point about housing benefit and the changes, which we want to spend giving adequate time for Reports, I have announced two days’ debate on welfare reform in Second Readings and other Government legislation. which there may be an opportunity to debate those, but there are transitional funds available to help people in Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): situations such as the right hon. Gentleman described The Select Committee on Communities and Local who might otherwise be caught by the proposed cap. Government has concluded that the Government’s localism plans are “incoherent” and that their most serious flaw On Southern Cross, we have been working very is the accountability gaps. Sir Gus O’Donnell and Sir closely with the Local Government Association and the Bob Kerslake were supposed to be looking into that Association of Directors of Adult Social Services to issue. Given the importance of this issue to local ensure that arrangements are in place in the event government, will the Leader of the House make time of any need. The National Health Service and for a debate and may we have an update on those Community Care Act 1990 gives local authorities all important accountability issues? the powers they need to intervene if necessary. Whatever the outcome, no one will find themselves homeless or Sir George Young: I understand the Select Committee without care. report and, of course, the Government will respond in On the Health and Social Care Bill, it makes sense to due course. The Government are committed to what we await the outcome of the Field review and the Government’s call “double devolution”—enfranchising not only local response to it before we take a decision about whether government, but people beneath local government—and the Bill should be recommitted. However, I say to the that is at the heart of the debate between us and those shadow Leader of the House that we spent more time in who take a different view. I cannot promise time to Public Bill Committee on that Bill than on any Bill since consider the report, but no doubt the Chair of the 2002. Whatever the outcome—whether recommittal or Backbench Business Committee will have heard the Report—I am determined that the House will have hon. Lady’s question. adequate time to debate the Bill’s remaining stages. Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): The Government’s On higher education, I have seen the report of the decision to establish the Backbench Business Committee Public Administration Committee and we plan to have was more than justified by this week’s vibrant sitting in the same numbers going to universities in 2012-13 as the which we heard many excellent bids for time. I understand numbers we inherited from the outgoing Government. the timetabling pressure on the Government, but while Let me address another issue that the shadow Leader we received bids for 28 hours of Chamber time, we of the House raised—that of the archbishop. I have not know of only one day that we can allocate. May I seen the full text of what the archbishop said but I hope simply request on behalf of the Committee that we that he has found time to balance any criticism of the know about further time that we can allocate so that we coalition with commendation for some of the things we can facilitate the many excellent bids that we receive? have done, such as the commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income on overseas aid to ensure that the Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s poorest people in the world do not bear the burden of anxiety, and I remind the House that this Government solving our problems. I hope that the archbishop also established the Backbench Business Committee. We are finds time to commend our actions on the pupil premium, committed to allocating 35 days in a normal Session, on giving more resources to the NHS and on taking which is roughly one day a week. We will adhere to that lower-income people out of tax. He said that the coalition commitment, and given that this Session will be slightly was rushing through things that nobody had voted for, longer than normal, we will extend those 35 days by an 287 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 288 appropriate proportion. I understand that no such day May the House have a proper debate about the importance is allocated for the next two weeks, but we will of course of that sector to highlight the necessity of encouraging catch up between now and the end of the Session. young people to think about it as one in which they can have an exciting and rewarding career so that we can Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): May we march forward for growth? have an urgent statement on the situation faced in my constituency by an 84-year-old widow with a limited Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend. There income and hardly any savings? She looks after her will be 250,000 more apprenticeships and I hope that 60-year-old disabled son, as she has done all his life, but many will end up in the manufacturing industry. We because community care services are being provided on want to rebalance the economy, and a resurgent industrial a limited scale, Walsall council has asked my constituent sector will enable us to have a much more resilient to pay £4,789 this year, starting with an instalment of model of long-term growth. I welcome some of the some £400. That is quite disgraceful. Why are the most encouraging signs in manufacturing that we have seen vulnerable in our society, such as the constituent whom over the past 12 months. I have cited—I have heard about other cases in the past few days—being targeted by this Tory Government and Tory councils? Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): There is little doubt that Scotland could survive as an independent Sir George Young: I reject the hon. Gentleman’s assertion country, but the critical question is whether it would be that we have targeted the most vulnerable. On the a more prosperous and fairer country. May we have an contrary, we have allocated an extra £2 billion for social urgent debate in the House on the positive contribution care through the NHS and local government that is of the Union to Scotland and the Scottish people and aimed precisely at the sorts of cases to which he refers. the positive contribution of Scotland and the Scottish people to the Union? John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Battersea Sir George Young: The answer is yes, because the (Jane Ellison), it is inevitable that the Backbench Business Scotland Bill will be returning to the Floor of the Committee cannot satisfy everyone’s concerns about House within the next two weeks, when the hon. Gentleman time. However, members of the Procedure Committee will have an opportunity to make a speech. We will are worried that whereas the time that was available to reassert our commitment to a United Kingdom and to debate its reports used to come out of Government Scotland remaining an integral part of it. time, it now comes out of Back-Bench time. What proposals do the Government have to introduce a House business committee that will allow all these things to be Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Given the housing balanced in an accountable manner? need and shortage in constituencies in the south-east such as mine, will the Leader of the House allow us to Sir George Young: The Wright Committee proposed have a debate on housing? that we should have a House business committee. Although that proposition was rejected by the outgoing Labour Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will welcome the Government, we have accepted it and said that within announcement on Wednesday that 100,000 acres of the first three years of the Government, we will move publicly owned Government land will be made available towards a House business committee that will merge the for housing, providing not only much needed housing, responsibilities of the Backbench Business Committee but 25,000 jobs in the building sector. We are very and of the Leader of the House for deciding the future anxious to increase the supply of housing and I hope conduct of business. that the initiative we announced yesterday will do exactly that. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): May we have an early debate on the Government’s disastrous decision Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East today regarding the feed-in tariff regime for solar energy? Cleveland) (Lab): Civitas produced a report last month More than 80% of those who responded to the consultation indicating that, because of carbon floor pricing policy, disagreed with today’s outcome. The Solar Trade more than 600,000 chemical workers’ jobs could be lost Association says that today’s announcement “effectively in the UK. The Institution of Mechanical Engineers kills” the solar industry, and companies such as Kingspan recently published a report that surveyed 1,000 companies, and Sharp in my part of the world of north Wales will only 12% of which indicated that they thought the be shattered by this decision to end solar manufacturing. Government’s programme to rebalance the economy Sir George Young: The Government are committed was working. May we have a debate in the House on to providing more energy through alternative sources how the Government are rebalancing the economy? such as solar energy, and we have taken several steps to increase the supply. I cannot promise a debate in Sir George Young: We have just had Business, Innovation Government time, but I think that we will next have and Skills questions, when those exact issues could have Energy and Climate Change questions on 7 July. been raised with the Secretary of State. I do not know Alternatively, the right hon. Gentleman could bid for whether the hon. Gentleman was in his place at the time an Adjournment debate on this important subject. and sought to raise them, but if he was he will have heard about the Government’s initiatives to help the Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Throughout Business, manufacturing sector of the economy and drive up Innovation and Skills questions, we heard of a strong employment, and I am sure that reference was made to and determined interest in manufacturing and engineering. initiatives such as the regional growth fund. 289 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 290

Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): My right hon. the IP address would be used to access their computers Friend will be aware of the excellent campaign being remotely for less than honest reasons. Will the Leader run by the Evening Standard to promote reading across of the House invite the Minister responsible to the London. It is somewhat ironic that large numbers of House so that we can debate how the Government can Labour-led local authorities are closing libraries across contribute to protecting people’s home computers and London. May we have a debate on how to combat this privacy? cultural vandalism inflicted by members of the Labour party? Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for using the air time available to him to warn people of Sir George Young: I hope that when local authorities that risk. There will be an opportunity next Thursday take the necessary decisions to balance the books they during Culture, Media and Sport questions to raise it will not take easy decisions and close libraries without further. In the meantime, I will see whether the appropriate exploring all the alternatives. My hon. Friend will know authorities can take further action to alert people to that there is a provision in the legislation whereby the this dangerous scam. Secretary of State has a role in the closing of libraries, so he might like to keep that at the back of his mind. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we please have a debate on the BBC’s news and Parliament channels? Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): May I The BBC Trust is currently conducting one of its regular return to the Health and Social Care Bill? Given the real reviews on those two important channels and a debate confusion and uncertainty surrounding the future of would allow Members to contribute to the consultation the NHS, it is absolutely essential that we have a debate process that is part of the review. in the House following the Field review and before we go to recommital of the Bill. The founding principles of Sir George Young: I understand the anxiety about the the NHS are now at risk and the legal duty to secure the coverage of the BBC’s news and Parliament channels. It provision of health care will be abolished unless the is a matter for the BBC, and the Government should House looks at that in detail. not become directly involved. I would welcome such a debate and hope that my hon. Friend will make an Sir George Young: The founding principles of the appropriate bid. The period of the current charter runs NHS are not at risk, and I refer the hon. Lady to the until the end of 2016 and there will be a full review as speech that the Prime Minister made earlier this week. I that time draws near, although no date or remit has am determined that there should be adequate time to been set. debate the Health and Social Care Bill. As I said, it makes sense to await the outcome of the Field review Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I am one of and see what amendments to the Bill the Government 15 Members who wrote to the Under-Secretary of State propose to table before deciding whether it should be for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member recommitted or dealt with on Report. I am determined for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who is responsible that the House should have adequate time to consider for consumer affairs, with a request for a meeting to the Bill’s important remaining stages. discuss high-cost lending, which was declined following five months waiting for a response. Will the Leader of Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): May we have a the House investigate the Minister’s work load and statement on the citizenship status of suspected war establish whether a meeting would be possible? criminals who now reside in the UK? I have been seeking information from the Home Office on the number Sir George Young: I caught the end of BIS questions of people who were actively involved in the Trawniki and heard the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella concentration camp in Poland. In March, I received a Creasy) press the Minister for a further meeting on that written response from the Minister for Immigration, issue. I will also press for a further meeting on the issue who said he would undertake to take away citizenship and report the bid of the hon. Member for Darlington from people who were engaged in these activities, but (Mrs Chapman) to my hon. Friend the Minister, but I since then I have heard nothing and no more information assure her that he, like every Minister in the Government, has emerged. is very busy on governmental business all the time.

Sir George Young: It should be absolutely clear that Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): My constituent Marie the UK will not be a safe haven for those fleeing from Heath has been left devastated by the brutal murder of international justice. I do not have the details of the her son Lee in Frankfurt in April. Will the Leader of case to which my hon. Friend refers, but I will refer it to the House give her an assurance that the Government the Home Secretary. The UK Border Agency refers will fully support her family during this most difficult appropriate cases to the Metropolitan police for time and, importantly, press the German authorities to investigation and the decision on whether to prosecute bring her son’s murderers to justice? lies with them. Cases will be referred where there has been an admission or allegation of an offence where the Sir George Young: I extend my condolences to Marie UK has jurisdiction to prosecute. Heath on the recent tragic death of her son Lee. The consular service of the Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): I doubt that Office should of course continue to provide all assistance I am the only Member whose constituents have been necessary to Mrs Heath and her family and maintain targeted in a new internet scam whereby they are cold-called contact with her, as it did when she went to Germany at home, told that their computer has a virus and asked following the attack. I understand that it has also for their internet protocol address over the phone. Clearly arranged for the family to receive assistance from Victim 291 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 292

Support’s national homicide service. I will also ensure Sir George Young: As a former supporter of Reading that the FCO is aware of my hon. Friend’s interest in football club, I was less than pleased at the outcome of the case. that match. The hon. Gentleman has raised the question of electrification several times, but we would not save Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): In Business, Innovation any time if we made the change that he outlines. It has and Skills questions earlier today the House heard that been raised several times at Transport questions, and the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong despite the heroic work of his local football club I Learning plans to produce an equality impact assessment would be misleading him if I said that it would generate of the proposed increases in charges for English for enough traffic to alter substantially the arithmetic on speakers of other languages courses before the House which that decision was based. rises for the summer recess. If that shows, as my experience in my constituency does, that the changes in ESOL fees Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Following will bear unfairly on women—seven in every 10 students information from whistleblowers, I recently raised the affected in Slough are women—will the Leader of the case of The Manchester college and its highly questionable House ensure that we have time before the House rises activities in relation to the delivery of taxpayer-funded to change the policy on behalf of those women? training contracts at prisons such as Reading. May we therefore have a debate on the illegal and inefficient Sir George Young: The hon. Lady is making an spending of taxpayers’ money, in which I would be able, assumption that the document to which she refers will for example, to call for a thorough audit of all the indeed confirm her suspicions. I think it makes sense to taxpayer money that has gone to The Manchester college? await the outcome of the impact review, but I will share her concern with the Minister and ensure that there is Sir George Young: I share my hon. Friend’s concern if an opportunity to take what she says on board if it there has been any misuse of taxpayers’ funds. I shall turns out that there is an adverse impact. draw his remarks to the attention of the appropriate Minister and ask him to write to my hon. Friend, Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The fog of war is one reassuring him either that there has been no misuse or thing, but the fog of confusion at the Ministry of that appropriate action is being taken to ensure that any Defence is quite another. There are reports that soldiers misuse is put right. in 16 Air Assault Brigade face a pay cut of about £2,000 a year. On Tuesday, the brigade, which recently returned from Helmand province, had a welcome home parade Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Scottish Power in Colchester, and yesterday at St Edmundsbury cathedral this week announced that it will increase its energy there was a service of thanksgiving, remembrance and prices by 19%, and other energy companies are likely to hope. Does the Leader of the House agree that a wage follow suit. May we have an urgent statement from the cut of £2,000 is not the reward they should receive, and Government outlining what discussions they have had if he cannot arrange for a Minister to come to the with energy companies and what measures they will House to clarify what is going on, will he at least take to ensure that we support families, who already arrange for a Minister to clarify in the armed forces have very tight budgets? debate precisely what the position is? Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Sir George Young: My hon. Friend knows that there concern at the recent announcement of fuel price increases, will be two days next week to debate the Armed Forces and we are committed to doing all we can to ensure that Bill, when there may be an opportunity to raise the vulnerable older people can keep their homes warm in matter. I heard his point of order earlier this week at a the winter. We have protected the winter fuel payments relatively late hour, and my right hon. Friend the Defence and permanently increased cold weather payments from Secretary has made it clear that all service personnel £8.50 to £25 per week. We have also announced the who have a current qualification to parachute and are triple guarantee for more generous state pension provision, in a post where we might ask them to use that skill on so that vulnerable people do not have to choose between behalf of this country must continue to receive specialist food and heating their homes, but I will share his parachute pay in recognition of that. I recognise that concern with my right hon. Friends. this is a sensitive and emotive subject, and I hope that what I have said is of some help. Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): The Safe and Sustainable review that is out to consultation Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): I am implies that Oxford’s child heart surgery unit will close. sure that you, Mr Speaker, and the Leader of the House Clinicians in Oxford and Southampton, however, have will want to join me in congratulating Swansea City on developed a partnership proposal that offers the quality their recent promotion to the premier league, but in assurance that the Government seek while retaining the addition will the Leader of the House provide time for accessibility that patients and clinicians fear losing. As an urgent debate on the further electrification of the Safe and Sustainable, an inherited review, runs the risk railway line out of Paddington from Cardiff to Swansea of being seen as an imposed reorganisation from above, in the light of the increased traffic due to that promotion, that proposal seems like exactly the kind of innovative plus the extra convergence funding that might be available local solution that we want to encourage. May we to subsidise the cost, and in the light of the Prime therefore have a debate on child heart surgery partnerships Minister’s statement in April in Swansea, when he said between trusts in order to assist those making a decision that the Government would look at the further extension on the Safe and Sustainable recommendations and to of electrification to Swansea? encourage such solutions in other parts of the country? 293 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 294

Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, involves both the regulator and the increase in fuel who will know that the consultation is under way and prices. There will be an opportunity, however, to press concludes at the end of the month. I have an interest, Ministers from the Department of Energy and Climate because Southampton general hospital serves a number Change at the next question time. of my constituents, and I was interested to hear her float the idea of a partnership between the relevant hospitals in Oxford and Southampton. The future of Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Will the Leader cardiac paediatric surgery has been a matter of some of the House grant us a debate about Government debate since the problems in Bristol, and we inherited a plans for the natural environment? This week the review, which my hon. Friend knows about, to try to get Government published on the subject a crucial White a better and safer balance of services, but I will certainly Paper, which will be hugely beneficial in safeguarding see that the committee that looks at the review when it is and enhancing the natural environment, and I feel that completed takes on board her suggestion of a partnership a debate on those welcome proposals would be appropriate. between the two hospitals. Sir George Young: I hope that my hon. Friend will go Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): May we debate the the Backbench Business Committee and bid for such a almost certain link between the tragic deaths of six of debate. We launched the White Paper a few days ago—the our gallant soldiers in the past two weeks and the first White Paper for some 20 years, looking ahead for escape eight weeks ago of 500 members of the Taliban, the next 50 years, proposing measures to safeguard and probably because of the incompetence or, possibly, enhance our natural environment and setting out a collaboration of their jailers? Should we not examine programme of action for some of the damage that has whether the Government’s over-optimistic trust in the been done. I should welcome such a debate if chosen by Afghan police and army is having lethal consequences the Backbench Business Committee. for our soldiers? Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s the Leader of the House agree that it is difficult if not concern. He will know that the Government make impossible to become a full citizen of our country regular statements on the position in Afghanistan and without speaking English? Is he aware that other countries, in Iraq, and we will continue to do so. When we make such as the Netherlands, link the payment of benefits to those statements, he will have an opportunity to share new entrants to their country to training in and learning his concern about the prisoners who escaped and their of the language? Is it not about time that we put extra possible impact on the soldiers who have lost their lives. effort into the whole concept of citizenship and the I cannot promise a debate about the issue, but perhaps necessity to teach people English in order to access it? Foreign Office questions would be a good opportunity for him to press Ministers on it. Sir George Young: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): May we first sentence. I was under the impression that there was have a debate about economic growth and confidence? I indeed an English language test as part of the citizenship was surprised to see, in assessing macro-economic policy, test before one became a citizen, but if that is not the the views of a very small, left-wing bunch of economists case I will ask my hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration being given so much weight, when I know that credible to write to the hon. Gentleman setting out what the economists back the Government. position is.

Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will the Leader of for that helpful and supportive point, and he makes it in the House find time for an urgent statement on the E. the week when the IMF said: coli outbreak in Europe and the UK cucumber industry? “Aided by the implementation of a wide-ranging policy program, Despite British produce being perfectly safe, many farmers the post-crisis repair of the UK economy is underway.” in my constituency have seen a fall in sales of between That view is endorsed by the European Commission, 30% and 50%, and some are already on their way to the CBI and many others, and most people will accept bankruptcy. Will he ask the Government to redouble their interpretation of what is happening, rather than their efforts for fair access to the ¤150 million of EU that of the outgoing Labour Administration, who got compensation and to persuade Russia to lift its unfair us into this mess. ban on UK cucumbers?

Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Further to what my Sir George Young: My hon. Friend said at the beginning hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas of his remarks that there is no evidence of any Sarwar) said about the huge increases in domestic energy contamination in the UK food chain from the E. coli prices, may we have an immediate and urgent debate on disease that has broken out in Germany, and I share his the subject, in which we could also look at the role of concern about UK cucumber producers, because all the the regulator to ensure that it protects not just vulnerable evidence shows that their product is perfectly safe to customers but all consumers of gas and electricity, both eat. The Food Standards Agency reminds consumers of on and off the grid? the importance of basic food hygiene when preparing food, but I will certainly raise with my right hon. Sir George Young: I cannot promise an immediate Friends the question that my hon. Friend raises about debate, but it strikes me as an issue that the Energy and compensation for those who have lost their livelihood Climate Change Committee might like to look at, as it as a result of the outbreak. 295 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 296

Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): The Leader Sir George Young: We are keen on level playing fields. of the House is well aware of my concern about the One of the obligations of being a member of the Government’s secret plans to try to privatise my local European Union is that there should be no non-tariff hospital trust. I am now informed that the trust has barriers to trade. There may be an opportunity for my expressed concern that if it has to implement the cuts hon. Friend to raise his concerns about defence equipment that the Government want, patient safety will be put at in next week’s debates on the Armed Forces Bill. If he is risk. The trust has refused to publish those documents. concerned about any specific contract, I would be happy May we have a debate on the secrecy that now surrounds to take that up with the Ministry of Defence. the NHS? Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): In 2004, the Sir George Young: Legislation put on to the statute King and Government of Malaysia awarded the Pingat book by the hon. Gentleman’s own party when in Jasa Malaysia medal to soldiers who fought in the government makes it absolutely clear that it is impossible Malaysian jungle between 1957 and 1966. That medal to privatise an NHS trust. As we have said in earlier was initially refused to veterans by the British Government. exchanges, there will be an opportunity to debate this It has now been accepted, but veterans are not allowed issue in the context of the Health and Social Care Bill. to wear it in public. According to a written answer from He has written to me and to the relevant Health Minister the Ministry of Defence of 26 April, the review was several times. If there are any outstanding issues, I will currently with the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime ask the Minister to write to him yet again. Minister and it was hoped that a decision would be made after Easter. It is now long after Easter, and we Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): With continued are still waiting. On behalf of people such as Ted disquiet across the House regarding the ongoing role of Williams, who is national secretary of the National the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Malaya and Borneo Veterans Association, may we have and following the recent debate instigated by my hon. a statement as soon as possible so that as we approach Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), would armed forces week they can wear their medal publicly, my right hon. Friend care to update us on any meetings with pride, in memory of the 340 troops who died or discussions that he has had about that? fighting bravely in those jungles? Sir George Young: This is a long-standing campaign Sir George Young: As a result of the debate that the that has a lot of support on both sides of the House, House had before the recess, we agreed to set up a and I commend the hon. Lady for raising it. I will raise Committee of the House to look at some specific issues with the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister that the House referred to it. That is the body to which exactly what she has said. If it is indeed the case that a my hon. Friend should address his attention when we decision rests with them, I will use what influence I have set it up, which will be in the near future. In the to try to get a decision before the summer recess. meantime, we have a liaison committee between the House and IPSA, with six or eight Members on it, and Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Further to the he might like to make contact with them. If he has any remarks by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow issues that need to be addressed urgently, I would be (Robert Halfon) about British cucumbers being decimated, happy to use what influence I have to sort them out. may we have a debate on why some ill-judged remarks by an EU Minister from Germany are leading to enormous Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May we have a financial implications and bills for our country? statement on the Olympic tickets debacle and, in particular, how it is possible that the Olympic organising committee Sir George Young: As I made clear earlier, there is no could devise a system whereby 1 million people did not evidence at all of any contamination in the UK food get any tickets at all in the first ballot, which means that chain that emanates from the problems of the E. coli they will have to do what I did this week—register on a outbreak in Germany. I say again to my hon. Friend French website in order to get some sensible way of that the public should be reassured that there is no trying to purchase them? Should not Ministers be calling reason at all why cucumbers in this country should not in members of the committee, showing them the instruments be consumed. If there have been unhelpful remarks of torture, and getting them to sort this out? from people overseas, of course I will pursue that through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Sir George Young: The fact is that there were many more bids for tickets than there were tickets available, so Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): As a member of the inevitably there had to be a rationing system. My own Backbench Business Committee, may I associate myself view is that the system that the committee introduced with the comments of the hon. Members for Battersea was a fair one. A week from today, the hon. Gentleman (Jane Ellison) and for Birmingham, Yardley (John will have an opportunity to press Ministers at Culture, Hemming) with regard to the work of the Committee, Media and Sport questions, and I will give them due where work is piling up? Members across the House are warning that he is on the warpath. becoming concerned at the little time so far allocated by the Government to its duties. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Will the Leader of May I also ask the Leader of the House about the House consider granting a debate on defence and Southern Cross? There is significant concern about transport procurement policies to enable British companies Southern Cross, not only because of the current self-induced to operate on a level playing field, which could also financial crisis but because of significant shortcomings deliver increased export potential as British manufacturers in levels of care in several homes around the country could sell their goods across the world? before the crisis was confirmed. 297 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 298

Sir George Young: On the latter point, it would be for Sir George Young: There will be an opportunity to the Care Quality Commission to pursue any failings raise that at DCMS questions next week. I thought that in care and to take that up with the home directly and, the FA did the right thing in arguing strongly for a if necessary, with the appropriate social services postponement of the election, but it was not successful. departments. It is now up to Sepp Blatter to reform FIFA and make it In response to what the hon. Gentleman said about a much more accountable and transparent organisation time pressures, there is enormous pressure on the than it is at the moment. Government in that we are asked for more time for Report stages and for debates on important issues. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): May I, too, press Unless he is suggesting that the House should sit into for a debate on the future of regulation of our care the end of July and August, I am afraid that the homes? Southern Cross has 750 homes across the country Backbench Business Committee and the Government that are in trouble with rental payments, and yesterday will both have to make difficult decisions on timing. we learned that 3,000 staff are being laid off. Many Members across the House will want a debate to ensure that the Government have a grip on the situation. Several hon. Members rose— Sir George Young: I understand the concern about Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently remind the House this. I hope that before long it will be possible to offer that questions to the Leader of the House at business time to the Backbench Business Committee for which it questions should specifically seek either a debate or a might consider a serious bid from both sides of the statement? House for a debate on care. The Dilnot report will come out early next month. I am sure that the House will Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Will the Leader want to debate it, because its recommendations are of the House make time for a debate on NHS funding? closely linked to the problems in which Southern Cross Constituents of mine have highlighted to me the importance and other care home providers now find themselves. of mental health services provision, so a debate on the £3 billion of further investment that this Government Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Many Members are putting into the NHS this year would be timely and have made the point that there has been not been welcome. enough time for the Backbench Business Committee. The Chairman of the Committee would have made that Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. point today, but unfortunately cannot be here for There will be time for a debate on the NHS when the understandable reasons. There was a solution. The Wright Health and Social Care Bill returns to the Floor of the report recommended that Back-Bench business should House. He reminds the House that an extra £3 billion is be scheduled every Wednesday with Thursdays once being invested in the NHS this year—an investment again becoming a main day for debate on Government that Labour would have denied it. legislation and other matters. Will the Leader of the House make a statement next week to say whether that can be done or whether the forces of darkness are Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): A constituent of mine preventing it? is particularly worried about the Government’s plans for the NHS in England because her daughter has a rare Sir George Young: There are no forces of darkness in condition that can be treated only in hospital in London. my life. I will reflect on my hon. Friend’s point. It is not She will therefore be interested to know that the the case that the Backbench Business Committee has Government are talking about recommitting the Health been offered only Thursdays. I think that the last day it and Social Care Bill to Committee. However, will there was offered was a Tuesday. The Government have to not be a real problem for members of that Committee, balance the demands on time for Government Bills with who may have to vote for exactly the opposite of what the demands of the Backbench Business Committee. they voted for only a few months ago? Will the Leader This will all be resolved in three years when we have a of the House make sure that if there is to be a recommittal, House business committee that can take a co-ordinated the Committee has a new set of Government Back view. I commend my hon. Friend for his role in never Benchers so that the original members do not have to letting us forget that we have a Backbench Business lose any integrity or credibility? Committee.

Sir George Young: A nice try! If the Bill is recommitted, Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) there will have to be a fresh Committee of Selection to (PC): Diolch yn fawr, Mr Speaker. During the recess, appoint a new Committee. I have every confidence that The Observer reported a seemingly rolling commitment Back-Bench Members of my party and of the Liberal by the British military mission in Saudi Arabia. May we Democrat party will use their best judgment on that have an urgent statement from the Government on the Committee and continue to work with the Government exact nature of the role of the BMM in training the to drive up standards in the NHS so that we have a Saudi national guard? It would seem slightly duplicitous world-beating health service in this country. to support pro-democracy movements in the middle east, while training the jack-boot forces that are quashing Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): In order protests in the region. potentially to give some support to whatever position the FA may take, may we have a debate on the appalling Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s situation in FIFA that is bringing our beautiful game concern. There will be an opportunity next Tuesday at into such disrepute? Foreign Office questions either to table a substantive 299 Business of the House9 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 300 question such as the one he has asked, or to ask a Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Will the Leader of topical question. I will alert Foreign Office Ministers the House conduct a review and make a statement to that such a question might be on the way. the House on the way in which the Government respond to questions from Members? On Tuesday, I asked the Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I very Secretary of State for Health about the cost of the much hope that we can have a debate on intellectual listening exercise. He has twice been unable to answer property. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of that question and wants to write to me. Some estimates the great sporting event that is to take place in this have put the cost at up to £1 billion. If the pause, country next year: the Wombourne olympics in south listening and reflecting had been done at the White Staffordshire. The event’s organisers are very concerned Paper stage, none of these costs would have been incurred. that the Olympic authorities might prosecute them for using the word “olympics”. I am sure that a debate Sir George Young: If my right hon. Friend said that would clarify the matter. he would write to the hon. Lady with an answer, I am sure that that is exactly what he will do. I think that the pause for the listening exercise has been widely welcomed. Sir George Young: I very much hope that the matter If it enables us to improve the provisions of the Health can be clarified without the need for a debate. I will and Social Care Bill, I am sure that the whole House alert the appropriate Minister to the dilemma that will welcome that outcome. confronts my hon. Friend’s constituents, and see whether we can find a way through. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate on awarding a posthumous Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Victoria cross to Blair Mayne, the legendary member May we have a debate on the progress of the Department and officer of the Special Air Service, for his courageous for Work and Pensions in implementing the and heroic endeavours in the desert campaign of the recommendations of the Harrington review into work second world war? He was a native of Newtownards in capability assessments? My constituent, Barry Haney, my constituency. To use an Ulster Scots colloquialism, who has a brain tumour with multiple side-effects, was he was yin o’ oor ain folk. Ards borough council and judged fit to work after a four-minute assessment. He the Northern Ireland Assembly support the campaign. won his appeal. Surely it would save a lot of heartache, In the last Parliament, a number of Members signed an time and public money if the assessments were got right early-day motion asking for him to be recognised with in the first place. Perhaps we could debate that on a the VC. How better to ensure that their war hero is cross-party basis in the House. recognised? A debate in this House would allow public opinion to be reflected and enable hon. Members to Sir George Young: There will be Work and Pensions indicate their support for— questions on Monday. Of course we should try to get these matters right at the initial assessment so that they Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise, but the hon. Gentleman’s do not have to go to appeal. The hon. Gentleman question is very long. He must try to make his questions reminds the House that there is an opportunity to shorter in future. appeal to an independent body. I will certainly raise the issue with the DWP and ensure that the quality control Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman has spoken is such that the need to appeal in such cases is minimised. of someone who was clearly a very brave man. I will certainly pass his bid on to the Secretary of State for David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): An important Defence. decision to be made in the next few months is the Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Government have location of the green investment bank. It is important relied for their evidence base for scrapping education that the criteria for that decision are transparent and maintenance allowance on a piece of research by the open to scrutiny. May we have a statement on what the National Foundation for Educational Research. Dr Thomas criteria will be, and an assurance that the process will be Spielhofer, who led that research, made it very clear in transparent, open and fair, in which case I am sure the evidence to the Education Committee yesterday that bank will end up in Warrington? there is no evidence base in the research to say that EMA is a dead-weight. In view of that, will the Secretary Sir George Young: I fear that my hon. Friend may of State for Education come to the House to explain the have opened a bidding war with his question. All parts evidence base on which he makes his decisions? of the country will be considered. The location for the green investment bank will be chosen to enable it best to Sir George Young: If the Select Committee is doing deliver its mission. We will consider a number of criteria, an investigation into the subject, it would seem sensible including the ability to fulfil the GIB’s mission, ease of for the Committee to summon the Secretary of State to access to the talent pool, and commercial costs. I am respond to that evidence, rather than have him summoned sure that Warrington will be considered. to the Floor of the House. 301 9 JUNE 2011 Dr David Kelly 302

Dr David Kelly High Court can order an inquest, and then only on an application made by me or by another with my consent. 12.26 pm I was asked last year to make such an application and have since been provided with a large amount of The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): With information that is said to support the case for an permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement inquest. I am grateful to all those who have taken the about the death of Dr David Kelly and whether an time and trouble to put that information together. application should be made by me to the High Court As Attorney-General, I had then to exercise a non- for an inquest to be held into his death. political role as guardian of the public interest and As a Law Officer of the Crown, I am routinely asked consider whether any proper grounds existed for such to consider such applications as part of my public an application to be made. Recognising the importance interest role. It is in that role that I make this statement. of the matter, I have sought the help of independent I would not normally present the result of my considerations experts to review the evidence and the new information so publicly, but given the interest that this case has supplied to me. That has involved help from Dr Richard attracted from Members of the House and in the media, Shepherd, a leading forensic pathologist, and Professor I think it is right that this House has the chance to Robert Flanagan, a distinguished toxicologist. I also consider my conclusions and to ask questions. sought and received the considered views of Lord Hutton; The House will be aware that Dr Kelly was a Mr Nicholas Gardiner, the Oxfordshire coroner; distinguished Government scientist, who became one of Dr Nicholas Hunt, the pathologist who carried out the the chief weapons inspectors in Iraq on behalf of the United original post-mortem; and others in response to the Nations Special Commission and who, from 1991 onwards, allegations made against their handling of the matter was deeply involved in investigating the biological warfare originally. I have also been greatly assisted by officers of programme of the Iraqi regime. Dr Kelly built up a high the Thames Valley police. I wish to record my thanks to reputation as a weapons inspector, not only in the all who have helped me in considering this matter, and United Kingdom but internationally. in particular to the legal staff at the Attorney-General’s Against a background of allegations of information office who have helped me. having been leaked to the media, on Thursday 10 July Having given the most careful consideration to all 2003 both the Foreign Affairs Committee and the the material that has been sent to me, I have concluded Intelligence and Security Committee requested that that the evidence that Dr Kelly took his own life is Dr Kelly appear before them to give evidence. He gave overwhelmingly strong. Further, nothing that I have evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee in a hearing seen supports any allegation that Dr Kelly was murdered televised to the public on 15 July, and he gave evidence or that his death was the subject of any kind of conspiracy to the Intelligence and Security Committee in a private or cover-up. In my view, no purpose would be served by hearing on 16 July. my making an application to the High Court for an In the afternoon of the following day, Dr Kelly left inquest, and indeed I have no reasonable basis for doing his home to take a walk. By the late evening, he had not so. There is no possibility that, at an inquest, a verdict returned and his family contacted the police. A search other than suicide would be returned. was commenced that resulted in his body being found in It is not possible in the short time that I have now to the morning of 18 July in woodland on Harrowdown explain in detail the reasoning behind my conclusions. hill in Oxfordshire. It appeared that Dr Kelly had taken In order to inform the House, I have placed in the his own life by cutting his wrist. Thames Valley police Libraries of both Houses today a more detailed statement nevertheless commenced an investigation into the case of my reasons, copies of the independent reports that I as a potential homicide. commissioned, the responses of Lord Hutton and others, That day, the then Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, some additional material and a schedule—a 60-page list set up an inquiry chaired by Lord Hutton to investigate that I hope covers most, if not all, the arguments that the circumstances surrounding the death of Dr Kelly. have been put to me and my response to each and every The Oxfordshire coroner also opened an inquest into such argument based on all the evidence available. the death as he was obliged to do. In August, the Lord May I just say, in broad terms, that the suggestion Chancellor exercised his powers under the Coroners that Dr Kelly did not take his own life is based not on Act 1988 to transfer the functions of the inquest to the positive evidence as such but on a criticism of the inquiry. The inquest was adjourned on 14 August, after findings of the investigation and inquiry? It began with sending the registrar a certificate of death in which the the views of a number of doctors, undoubtedly expert causes were stated to be, first, haemorrhage and incised in their own areas of practice but not qualified as wounds to the left wrist and, secondly, co-praxomol forensic pathologists, that Dr Kelly could not have died ingestion and coronary artery atherosclerosis. When the from loss of blood from the wounds described. To be Hutton inquiry reported in January 2004, it confirmed fair to those who make such a claim, they did not have the causes of death as they appeared in the death access to the material on which those conclusions had certificate. Thereafter, on 16 March 2004, the coroner been reached in making their own reasoned arguments. indicated that there was no basis or need to resume the Once such a doubt had been created, those who inquest, and that his functions were accordingly at believed that Dr Kelly was murdered looked for an end. contradictions in the evidence given to Lord Hutton, Because of the interest in the political issues that for matters that were apparently not followed up by the formed the backdrop to Dr Kelly’s death, a significant police and for any other issues that might be considered number of people have raised concerns about his death suspicious. Much has been made, for example, of the and the process used to investigate it, and have called position in which Dr Kelly’s body was found. Although for a new inquest to be set up. At this stage, only the all the witnesses bar two gave evidence to the inquiry 303 Dr David Kelly9 JUNE 2011 Dr David Kelly 304 that Dr Kelly was found lying on his back with, as the and photographs show, his head very close to the trunk of a “further satisfied that no other person was involved in the death tree, the two witnesses who found the body stated that it of Dr Kelly.” was propped against a tree. Lord Hutton, who had The Attorney-General’s decision also substantiates the considerable experience as a trial judge, recognised that findings of the post-mortem and the toxicology reports honest witnesses, in genuinely seeking to explain what conducted following Dr Kelly’s death and published by they saw, can and sometimes will none the less recall the the Ministry of Justice last October same scene differently.Any Member who has any experience of the trial process will say the same. That is underlined “in the interests of maintaining public confidence in the inquiry into how Dr Kelly came by his death.” by the fact that one of those two witnesses, in the statement that he made to the police closer to the time The Opposition therefore accept the Attorney-General’s of the event, actually described the body as being on its decision today, on the basis that he has very carefully back and not propped. That is not a criticism of that and clearly outlined his detailed reasons for not applying witness, but from that minor contradiction came the to the High Court to request an inquest into Dr Kelly’s view that the body must have been moved. death, due to the lack of new, compelling evidence that Dr Kelly did not commit suicide. If the body had been moved, then why, by whom and for what purpose? The issue has proven a fertile ground We are grateful to the Attorney-General for the written for imaginative speculation to take over. In fact, all the statement and related documents that he has placed in evidence provided by the very careful forensic examination the Libraries of both Houses, which will assist Members of the scene at the time and the detailed review that, and the public in understanding the basis of his exceptionally, I have undertaken, supports the view that announcement today. None the less, I am aware that Dr Kelly died where he was found and from the causes few in this House will yet have had the advantage of determined. There is no evidence that I have seen that perusing the documents. I therefore wonder whether he would suggest any other explanation, or that suggests will provide for Members of the House, and for members any cover up or conspiracy whatever. of the public, who may listen to this statement but not I wish to emphasise that my conclusions and decision peruse the documents in the Library, a brief outline of are, as they must be, entirely my own and based on my the legal basis of his decision not to apply to the High assessment of the evidence. I have received no Court for a new inquest; confirmation that he is satisfied representations of any kind from the Prime Minister or that, as has been extensively raised in media reports, the any other ministerial colleague on this decision. evidential burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt as to the cause of Dr Kelly’s death has been met, thereby The material is in the Library for all to consider. I dispelling concerns that a coroner’s inquest would return believe that anyone approaching this matter with an a different verdict; and a statement of whether he open mind, whatever their previous misgivings, will find believes that his decision today would not rule out a it convincing. I would add only that I offer to the Kelly future inquest should any new and compelling evidence family my sincere sympathy, not simply for their loss, about the circumstances surrounding Dr Kelly’s death great though that undoubtedly is, but for having to bear come to light. that loss in the glare of intrusive publicity over such a long period. They have borne that load with great fortitude Finally, I also wish to extend my sincere sympathy to and dignity. Although I realise that it will always be the Kelly family for both their tragic loss and the impossible to satisfy everyone, I would hope for their undoubted difficulty that the extensive publicity surrounding sake that a line can now be drawn under this matter. the matter has caused.

Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) The Attorney-General: I am most grateful to the hon. (Lab): I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for Lady for her kind words. I appreciate them and I have early sight of both his statement and the detailed reasons no doubt that they will be appreciated by all those who for his decision not to apply to the High Court for an have been involved in reviewing this case. inquest into the death of Dr David Kelly. The hon. Lady raises a number of important points, Having been afforded the opportunity to read and which I shall do my best to answer. First, I very much examine the documentation relating to the Attorney- hope for the sake of all concerned that this will produce General’s inquiries, in so far as time has permitted, the finality, but it is absolutely right that if some new and shadow Law Officers are grateful for the opportunity to compelling evidence were to come to light at some point review the documents, from which we derive confidence in future that suggests that there might be something that the Attorney-General has addressed himself fully wrong in the original inquiry findings, it would of to the issues involved. We have been reassured by the course be possible for the matter to be looked at again, comprehensive nature of the inquiry and the quality of as in the case of any inquest or inquiry. In that sense, the reports produced. The allegations made have clearly there is no bar as a result of the statement that I have been taken seriously and inquired into, and I should like made today. to commend the thorough and extremely transparent Secondly, the hon. Lady asked me to explain my legal way in which he has handled the issue. I hope that that powers a little. The background is that the inquest will give Members of the House and members of the process was replaced originally by a decision of Lord public the reassurance that he was seeking to provide. Falconer to have an inquiry, pursuant to section 17A of The Attorney-General’s findings corroborate those the Coroners Act 1988. That decision was never challenged of the right hon. Lord Hutton, who concluded in his at the time—somebody could have done so if they had 2004 report into the circumstances surrounding the wanted to, and there is no reason whatever to suppose death of Dr Kelly that he was that there was anything improper about the decision. “satisfied that Dr Kelly took his own life” Indeed, as I understood it, the decision marked the 305 Dr David Kelly9 JUNE 2011 Dr David Kelly 306

[The Attorney-General] for a variety of reasons, and everything took place in a very difficult political environment. However, I believe seriousness with which Lord Falconer took the matter that my review and its findings are very clear-cut. This at that time, and it marked his desire to have an inquiry was not a question having to make a balancing decision that would be capable of going further in its scope than or coming down on one side or the other. I reviewed all an inquest, particularly in respect of looking at some of the material, and the outcome is that it is quite clear to the surrounding circumstances, which an inquest would me that the original inquiry’s findings were correct. not be particularly well placed to do. Lord Hutton did indeed look at those surrounding Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): circumstances, but they were not really the subject of May I congratulate the Attorney-General on the clarity this review. The review arose from the representations of his statement and on his decision, which on the basis of the memorialist doctors who indicated that they of the scientific evidence that I have read is quite right? thought that the lack of certainty specifically as to the Will he confirm that the detailed scientific reports are cause of death was such that I ought to exercise my included in the bundle of papers that he has placed in powers under section 13 of the 1988 Act to make an the Library, including those from Richard Shepherd application to the High Court for the inquest to take and Robert Flanagan, to which he referred? Will he place—we may have to face up to the fact that no ensure that an interpretation for lay people of what the inquest took place, because it adjourned without being scientists wrote is included, so that the conspiracy theories completed. do not develop again? I do not wish to get involved in legal technicalities, but those powers are of a slightly technical nature. The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman will be However, I approached the matter on the basis that if the best judge of that. Professor Flanagan’s and there was an evidential basis for calling into question Dr Shepherd’s reports will both be in the Library. I the inquiry’s findings on the cause of death, I would think they are written in pretty plain English. Clearly, make such an application, whatever the technical difficulties they are also medically based, which is inevitable. In the might be, because of my view that in such circumstances, schedule, I have used that material and other material to the Court would be minded at least to find a way to seek to set out each matter in slightly plainer terms. I allow the matter to be reinvestigated. That was the basis think it is readily comprehensible, and I hope it will help on which I operated. That we have taken some time to inform the public as well as Members of the House. and, I must say, a lot of trouble, to look at this matter very carefully is a reflection of the seriousness, in my Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the view, of the allegations that were being made, and of Attorney-General note that when, along with my the fact that the allegations were being made by apparently Intelligence and Security Committee colleagues, I questioned sensible and reasonable people. I am grateful to them Dr Kelly two days before he died, I formed the view that for bringing those problems forward. a very distinguished public servant was deeply distressed That is the basis on which I operated, but having by the situation in which he had placed himself? Although operated in that way and having reviewed all the evidence— I am wholly unpersuaded by any of the theories that the hon. Lady has seen the schedule, which I hope will have been put forward as an alternative to suicide, will helpful to hon. Members who go to the Library to look the Attorney-General spell out what he thinks will be at it—I decided that the evidence was overwhelming lost by allowing the process of inquiry to be completed that this was a tragic case of suicide, and that suicide by an inquest? caused Dr Kelly’s death for the medical reasons that were correctly identified at the time that the death The Attorney-General: The first problem is that there certificate was made out. is no basis on which the High Court could possibly order an inquest. In my judgment, if I were to go to the Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): As a member Court and make such an application, it would be dismissed, of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs that took and dismissed with—I assume, on the basis of my evidence from David Kelly in 2003, I have never doubted reasoning—a certain amount of irritation, because such that he committed suicide. I have always believed that an application must be made on an evidential basis. Lord Hutton was right on that, even though his conclusions on the war have subsequently been challenged. We have also held an inquiry. I make the point in the I have known the Attorney-General for many years, schedule that the suggestion that the inquiry was in and I know that he will have done a perfectly thorough some way inferior to an inquest, in the sense that it was and diligent job. Will he accept that the evidence is unable to look at some of the things that an inquest clear, and that it is time to bring closure to this matter could have looked at, really does not bear any reasoned— and move on? either logical or legal—examination. Therefore, in practical terms, the inquest—or something tantamount or equivalent The Attorney-General: I certainly think that the evidence to it—has already taken place. On top of that, a review is clear, and indeed that there is no evidence to the has been carried out in the knowledge of public anxiety contrary—that point will be quite clear to anybody who by eminent professionals, who have looked specifically looks at the schedule—in the sense that I could see at the anxieties that have been raised, either by the perfectly satisfactory answers to every question that was memorialists or others. In each case, they have said that raised with me, all of which led inexorably to the suicide the original findings were correct. verdict. I should just make the point that there was one I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope that this will exception: the timing of death was reviewed, because enable us finally to draw a line under the matter. It was the conclusion was reached that the tables that were clearly a matter of huge and legitimate public concern used by the pathologist at the time—through no fault of 307 Dr David Kelly9 JUNE 2011 Dr David Kelly 308 that pathologist—were in fact not accurate. That is a parts of the inquiry can maintain that belief. If he had question of the development of medical science. With come to a different conclusion and used a gentler form that exception, nothing calls into question any of the of words than “sexed up”—or whatever the expression detailed findings or comments that were made originally. was, we would have had a near perfect ending to what was a very bad episode in which the previous Government Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): May I warmly behaved appallingly. welcome the Attorney-General’s statement? He will of course know that this will do nothing to discourage the The Attorney-General: I understand the point that paranoid conspiracy theorists, but on the other hand, my hon. Friend makes. The review that I carried out they would not change their minds just because of the was focused on the cause of death, because it was the existence of evidence even if an inquiry went ahead. calling into question of the inquiry’s findings and of the Speaking of paranoid conspiracy theorists, where is signing of the death certificate that started the spiral of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. speculation that has grown from that. I focused on that Member for Lewes (Norman Baker)? When only last issue and my conclusions are directed to it. I appreciate year he told the media that the Hutton inquiry had cut that there are wider issues that Lord Hutton tried to corners, was he speaking on behalf of the Government? address, but they are not matters that I have sought to reopen. I know that those matters remain controversial The Attorney-General: I am quite sure that he was not to many. speaking on behalf of the Government. In any case, the Government do not have a position on the matter. I Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): My hon. Friend have a position on the matter, based on my review, and the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris), who is no I am sure that many Members across the spectrum have longer in his place, referred in passing to the book individual views on the subject, and that is their written by the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), entitlement—as it is of anybody in this country. who is now a Minister. Did the Attorney-General respond specifically in his judgment to some of the points made Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I listened intently in that book and would he care to say briefly what he to my right hon. and learned Friend’s statement, particularly thought of it? the part where he mentioned that he had not received any representations from ministerial colleagues. Will he The Attorney-General: I have looked at the book on clarify whether he consulted the Prime Minister in several occasions. It is partly a critique of the evidential advance of coming to the House to make this statement? process of the inquiry and partly a speculation—I do not think it has ever been suggested that it is anything The Attorney-General: I most certainly did not, and it more than speculation—about alternative possibilities would not have been proper for me to do so. Nobody for what might have happened to Dr Kelly. Having has spoken to me about it, and that applies to all my focused on the evidence, I have come to conclusions on ministerial colleagues. the evidence. I hope that, as a result, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker)—quite apart from Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): anyone else—may conclude that this was in fact a case As a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee when it of suicide. took evidence from Dr David Kelly—as was my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): May I thank the Hamilton)—I have followed these proceedings probably Attorney-General for the clarity that has been shed on more closely than other hon. Members. I thank the this subject? However, there is no doubt that certain Attorney-General for his statement and ask him to bodies will now ask for a judicial review of his decision. remind those who remain unsatisfied that they also have Would the Government care to undertake not to order a responsibility to the family of Dr David Kelly and, costs to be raised against them in the event of that unless they can really substantiate their claims, they application being unsuccessful? should look at the evidence in front of them and be satisfied. The Attorney-General: I have to say to my hon. Friend that that is a hypothetical question. It is obviously The Attorney-General: The evidence is there in the open to individuals to apply for judicial review of my Library to see, and it will be available to the public as reasoning and decisions. At the moment, I simply express well. I hope that those who have concerns will take the the hope that they will not feel the need to do so. time to look at the material. Of course, the background to this is a human tragedy of great pain for the family, Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): and that is why I hope that people will be convinced that Will the Attorney-General say whether he would be this matter should now be laid to rest. content if one of his ministerial colleagues were to publicly dissent from his decision, given his quasi-judicial Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): What in role? my view distinguishes this case from the sad case of Jay Abatan, who died on 29 January 1999—an inquest was The Attorney-General: I am not aware of any ministerial held 10 years later, at which new evidence came forward—is colleague having expressed any view that dissents from that in this case there were no new witnesses or evidence. my decision. In relying on the work of Lord Hutton’s team and others, I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Does will accept that those of us who believe that Lord the Attorney-General understand why, given that key Hutton came to the wrong conclusion on the main witnesses were not called during the Hutton inquiry, 309 Dr David Kelly9 JUNE 2011 Dr David Kelly 310

[Tom Brake] The Attorney-General: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I have to say that those suggestions have always that the inquiry did not have legal standing and that struck me as being at the rather far-fetched end of the further evidence has come to light since, some—including spectrum. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that Dr Stephen Frost—consider that inquiry to have been Dr Kelly committed suicide: he was not killed by anyone. inadequate? Does the Attorney-General also understand why doubts will remain about the process followed, if Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Attorney- not necessarily about the cause of death? General has done the House a great favour by coming here and making such a full statement. It should be an The Attorney-General: I am aware that doubts were example to other Ministers. He said in his statement expressed about the process. I have reviewed the process, that he is routinely asked to apply to the High Court for but above all I have reviewed the evidential conclusions inquests. For the House’s information, will he say how based on the process and the evidence. The conclusion many times he has actually gone to the High Court? that I have reached is that the process came to the correct conclusion. On that basis, it seems to me that it achieved what it set out to do and did it properly. The Attorney-General: Generally speaking, I do not have to do it myself, but give permission for it to be Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I came done. I did that very recently in a case where a body had to this statement prepared to be dissatisfied with what I been found and never identified. Some considerable would hear because I have spoken to one of the country’s time afterwards identification became possible, so the leading cardiovascular surgeons who has received inquest had to be reopened for the purpose of identifying evidence—admittedly second-hand and not directly—and that the person who had died and had been long buried who has said to me on several occasions that Dr Kelly was, in fact, the person concerned. That is an example. could not have died from a slit to the wrist, because that It is part of my functions to do it. I have to review each would not have caused death. However, that surgeon such case, but generally speaking, I give my permission did not of course consider in that judgment what chemicals to others to do it, and do not have to take that role or drugs Dr Kelly might have taken. So I commend my myself. right hon. and learned Friend. From what I have heard today, he has conducted a thorough and impartial Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I commend my right inquiry. I reserve judgment because I wish to read the hon. and learned Friend on his statement, and hope material he has placed in the Library, but unless new very much that it will draw a line under all these evidence comes to light, I think a line should now be conspiracy theories. Does he agree that these theories drawn under this matter to allow the family to put it came about because of the previous Government’s behind them. mishandling of the case for the Iraq war, particularly the 45-minute claim about an attack on British targets? The Attorney-General: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I listed in my statement the causes of death as The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend asks me to they were found and put in the death certificate, and stray from the role that brought me to the Dispatch Box that has been reviewed in great detail. The unequivocal as the guardian of the public interest and into the realm view of Dr Shepherd and Professor Flanagan is that of politics. I shall restrain myself from doing so. those causes of death are entirely correct, and that the combination of factors as listed was what caused the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Attorney- death of Dr Kelly. Of course, the primary cause was General, thank you very much. I know that the whole the fact that he slit his wrists and took an overdose. House appreciates the detailed answers and your statement today. It is widely appreciated. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): As someone who also harboured doubts about the quality of the process before the Attorney-General’s review, may I welcome the clarity of his statement? Does it POSTAL SERVICES BILL (PROGRAMME) amount to this—in focusing on the function of a coroner’s (NO. 2) inquiry, which is to look into nothing more or less than Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the cause of death and to reach a verdict from a range Order No. 83A(7)), of options available as a matter of law, is he telling the House that any inquest would have been driven to a That the following provisions shall apply to the Postal Services Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 27 October verdict of suicide? 2010 (Postal Services Bill (Programme)): The Attorney-General: Yes, indeed. There is no evidence Consideration of Lords Amendments that I have seen, including the material that has been 1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall produced on the review, that could lead to an inquest (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion coming to any other conclusion. three hours after their commencement at today’s sitting. Subsequent stages Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Does the Attorney- 2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered General agree that his statement today should put to forthwith without any Question being put. bed some of the outrageous and fallacious speculations 3. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords that members of our security forces might have murdered shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion Dr Kelly? one hour after their commencement.—(Mr Dunne.) 311 9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 312

Postal Services Bill crucial step towards to securing the future of the universal service. I would like to assure hon. Members that the Consideration of Lords amendments work to establish this is already under way. In particular, Ofcom, the new regulator, will launch a consultation in Clause 2 the autumn with a view to establishing the new regulatory framework in the spring of 2012. I hope that that REPORT ON DECISION TO DISPOSE OF SHARES IN A update is helpful. ROYAL MAIL COMPANY ETC I begin my main remarks on this group of amendments by commending Opposition Members on pushing us on 1.1 pm whether, given our commitment to transparent government, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, more could and should be done to offer more information Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I beg to to Parliament. Amendment 1 is a direct response to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1. that. Clause 2 already commits the Government to report to Parliament when a decision to dispose of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this shares has been made. Amendment 1 adds three new it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 requirements for that report: first, that it must include to 11. the objective for the sale; secondly, that it must include details of the expected commercial relationship between Mr Davey: I would like briefly to take hon. Members Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd following the disposal back to the Bill’s Third Reading in this House, when I of shares; and thirdly, that where the proposed disposal marked the passing of the Bill into the capable hands of would result in shares being placed into the employee the other place by saying that the coalition Government’s share scheme for the first time, the report must include decision to take on this difficult issue showed them at details of that scheme. As I previously said to the Public their strongest and most radical. As we welcome the Bill Bill Committee, I will ensure that shares are placed in back, I would like to add to that and say that the Lords the employee share scheme from the time of the very amendments before us today also show government at first sale of shares in Royal Mail. its most open-minded and collaborative, because they The second of the new requirements—to provide represent the constructive and collective efforts of both information on the expected commercial relationship sides of the other place to improve and strengthen the between Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail after the sale of Bill. The amendments in this group concern part 1 of shares—will work together with amendment 9 to address the Bill and the provisions for the ownership of Royal a key concern that I know is held by many in the House. Mail and the Post Office. I am clear that when it comes After much debate in the House and elsewhere, I can to undertaking a sale of shares in Royal Mail, the still see no reason why the strong commercial relationship Government must have the flexibility to negotiate the between Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail should weaken right deal at the right time. after the two companies have been separated. More I know that hon. Members have been anxious to hear importantly, the senior management at Royal Mail has more about the next steps in our plans for Royal Mail, been clear that this relationship will continue. That is so with your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, and why the chairman of Royal Mail, Donald Brydon, felt in the interests of transparency, I would like to set out able to say to the Bill Committee that prior to a sale of briefly the next two crucial steps that need to be taken shares in Royal Mail, the two companies would put in to secure the future of Royal Mail. As my noble Friend place a new contract for the longest time legally permissible. Baroness Wilcox said on Third Reading in the other I have gone on the record—and I am happy to do so place, the Government intend to take on Royal Mail’s again today—as saying that the Government, as sole historical pension deficit with effect from March 2012 shareholder, will ensure that the two companies fulfil as part of the preparations for the sale of the company. this commitment. I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate what a The negotiation of that contract is, rightly, a commercial relief it will be to the 435,000 members of the Royal matter for the two companies, and not for the Government Mail pension plan to know that their accrued pension or this legislation. However, Lords amendment 1 will rights will be protected sooner rather than later. ensure that, prior to a sale of shares in Royal Mail, The key concern of people up and down the country Parliament has a snapshot of the expected commercial is that the universal service must be protected. To do relationship following the sale, and Lords amendment 9 that, Royal Mail needs to be on a sustainable commercial would make it clear that the annual report on the post footing. The company currently has about £1.7 billion office network must include information every year on of debt facilities with the Government. We need to the postal services provided as part of that relationship. restructure the company’s balance sheet in due course, Lords amendment 10 is a technical amendment to and in order to put Royal Mail on that sustainable clarify the enforcement powers that apply to the annual commercial footing, we will need to reduce significantly report on the post office network. that level of debt. Of course, we will need approval from There can be no doubt that the future of this iconic the European Commission to provide this financial British institution is of enormous interest to Members support, and we have already begun informal discussions of this House and in the other place. I believe that a with the Commission. The Government will submit a mutual Post Office is a radical and exciting proposal, formal stated notification in the next few days, and I and one that is supported by all parties. However, I hope that the process will be completed by March 2012. acknowledge that our position—that mutualisation must We will discuss amendments to part 3 of the Bill, be a bottom-up process that engages sub-postmasters, which deal with the new regulatory regime, later on, but customers and management—means that we cannot be of course implementing that regime will be another as explicit now about what that mutual will look like. 313 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 314

[Mr Davey] Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Will the hon. Lady give way on that point? Co-operatives UK has now published its report on the options for a mutual, and that report will form the basis Nia Griffith: I shall take your advice on the matter, for the Government’s full public consultation in due Madam Deputy Speaker; I believe that the hon. Lady course. Until the conclusion of that process, the Government should stick to the amendments on the Order Paper. remain open to all views. We will not dictate the form This first group of amendments concerns the sell-off that mutualisation will take. of the Royal Mail and the splitting up of the Royal Mail To give both Houses more oversight of what an Group into a privately owned postal service and a eventual Post Office mutual might look like, we have publicly owned network of post office counters. It is tabled Lords amendments 2 to 8, which would introduce against that background that we should consider Lords the affirmative procedure to the powers to mutualise amendment 1, which requires that when the Secretary Post Office Ltd. Furthermore, those amendments would of State lays before Parliament a report on the disposal ensure that the report on mutualisation provided for of a Royal Mail company, it should include under clause 5 must be laid prior to the vote, so that “information about the expected commercial relationship…between hon. Members have full and detailed information on the Royal Mail company in question and any Post Office company”. the mutualisation plans before they debate and vote on We genuinely welcome the inclusion of such information them. Let me be clear, however, that the plans, as I have in the report, but no one should be under any illusion said before, will be developed from the bottom up and that this in any way constitutes an inter-business agreement in full consultation with all of the Post Office’s major between the Royal Mail and the post office network. stakeholders. Hooper recommended in his report that there should be The last amendment in this group—Lords amendment 11 a long-term agreement between Royal Mail and Post —addresses an issue that I know is close to the hearts of Office Ltd, and the National Federation of SubPostmasters many hon. Members. When my right hon. Friend the has asked for an IBA of a minimum of 10 years. We Business Secretary opened the debate on the Bill on have repeatedly called on the Government, at all stages Second Reading, he talked of this country being a of the Bill, to include an inter-business agreement in the pioneer of postal services in the 19th century. It is that legislation, and have tabled amendments to that effect. proud and rich postal history that Lords amendment 11 One third of Post Office Ltd’s revenue comes from seeks to protect, by requiring Royal Mail to report the Royal Mail. Without that revenue, Post Office Ltd annually on its activities in relation to the British postal would be unable to keep many post offices open. With museum and archive. Having visited the British postal the greatest of respect to Moya Greene, the current museum and archive, I can say that it provides a wonderful chief executive officer of the Royal Mail, who has and fascinating record of our postal heritage, and is talked about a privatised Royal Mail continuing to use absolutely deserving of the protection that Lords the post office network, it is no good simply having fine amendment 11 seeks to provide. I would be quite keen words. Those fine words need to be translated into a to share with the House the benefit of my visit and proper bankable contract—a proper agreement. Other some of the lessons that I learnt—for example, that the countries manage to put agreements into their legislation, first post boxes were green, before moving to chocolate but the real difficulty in this case is an intense obstinacy brown and then ending up one of the shades of red that on the part of the Government, who have set themselves we see across our country—but I am sure that you against enshrining any protection for the post office would bring me to order if I did, Madam Deputy network in legislation. Speaker. A profit-hungry privatised Royal Mail will be looking In conclusion, the amendments in this group respond to cut costs and maximise profits. That could result in to a number of concerns raised in both this House and the Royal Mail drawing up an agreement for part or the other place. They seek to offer more information on even all of its services with providers other than the the implications of the sale of shares, more parliamentary post office network, such as a supermarket chain or a control over Post Office mutualisation and greater high street store. A privatised Royal Mail may well wish transparency of Royal Mail’s heritage activities. I believe to continue to have some sort of agreement with Post that the objectives that they seek to achieve are truly Office Ltd, but that agreement could be for a much cross-party objectives, so I would urge the House to reduced service from that which the Post Office currently agree to them. provides. It could involve just a small proportion of the current network of Post Office branches. That could Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): It is indeed our intention give rise to the surreal spectacle of some post offices to be a constructive Opposition and to welcome being places where people could hand over their parcels amendments that improve the Bill. However, even though or register their letters, with other post offices not we welcome some of the amendments this afternoon— offering postal services. It sounds a bit like a children’s particularly where they reflect to some degree the position riddle—“When is a post office not a post office?”—but that we have taken on aspects of the Bill—we remain it would be no joking matter for our post office network totally opposed to the main purpose of the Bill, which or for the public, who want easy access to postal services, is to sell off the Royal Mail 100% to private enterprise. if such services were available at only some of the That is completely different from our proposal, which current post office branches. was to keep the Royal Mail in majority public ownership. Selling off the Royal Mail into 100% private ownership 1.15 pm means that only through the regulatory regime will the Any decision by a privatised Royal Mail to reduce the Government and the taxpayers of this country have any number of branches that it uses would have a catastrophic influence on the service provided. effect on the income of the post office network, and 315 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 316 threaten the viability and very existence of any branches affirmative resolution procedure. That would require that the Royal Mail chose not to use. It is therefore the Secretary of State to lay a draft order before Parliament regrettable that the Government have refused to include and for it to be approved by both Houses before it could a clause in the Bill requiring an inter-business agreement be made. Lords Amendments 5 to 8 require the Secretary and that Lords amendment 1, which requires a report of State to lay a report before Parliament before an on such an agreement, is the nearest that they are order directing the issue or transfer of shares or share prepared to get. The amendment does, nevertheless, rights in a Post Office company to a relevant mutual is mean that the report that the Secretary of State lays made. That is an improvement on the original requirement, before Parliament must include some mention of the which was to lay a report after any direction for the expected commercial relationship between the Royal disposal of the Crown’s interest in a Post Office company Mail company and any Post office company, and for to a relevant mutual had been made. that reason we welcome it. These amendments strengthen the opportunity for Let me turn to the part of Lords amendment 1 that Parliament to scrutinise any proposals for the mutualisation deals with shares. We accept the principle of employee of the Post Office. This is important because considerable shares, and appreciate the benefits that such schemes challenges must be faced before any such mutualisation can bring, but in this instance employees will need to can take place. We welcome the work on mutualisation know a lot more about exactly how any scheme would detailed in the recently produced report by Co-operatives work. We have pressed for greater detail about the UK, which includes information on various mutual scheme, so we welcome the proposal in the amendment options, and on the ownership and governance of a that a report be laid before Parliament setting out the potential mutual, but we recognise that the real challenge detail of a proposed employee share scheme before the is to make the post office network viable. For all the disposal of the Royal Mail takes place. In Committee, Government’s fine rhetoric, we are concerned about we pointed out that the Bill as it stands requires employee their failure to guarantee business for the post office shares to be offered only when the last Crown share in network. For mutualisation to be a success, we need to the Royal Mail has been sold. We argued the case for a see a serious, viable business plan for our post office trigger that kicks in when the first shares are sold. The network. We are fully aware of the Government’s plans Minister for postal services has suggested that, despite to spend money on the network, but their accompanying the wording of the Bill, the Government would, in fact, document “Securing the post office network in the make available some employee shares when the first digital age” does not address the issue of how to generate disposal is made. I very much welcome his confirmation new streams of business for the network. of that point today, so that employees will not have to Post office income can be divided into three main wait until the last Crown share is sold before being able categories—Royal Mail business, Government business to apply for any employee shares. and other commercial business—and the Government There remain, however, a number of unanswered have failed to provide guarantees of business in any of questions, on which I hope the Minister can give us them. I have just explained how the lack of an inter-business some guidance today. Would shares be held on an equal agreement between a privatised Royal Mail and the post basis, with equal voting rights for each shareholder and office network could result in the loss of all or a an equal distribution of dividends, or would some substantial part of Royal Mail business from the post shareholders be more equal than others? In Committee, office. As for the Department for Business, Innovation we made the case for more than 10% of the shares to be and Skills’ claim to be making the Post Office a front in the employee share scheme; we have suggested up to office for Government business, that message does not 20%. That case is backed by specialist bodies that gave seem to be getting across to other Government evidence to the Public Bill Committee, including the Departments. Employee Ownership Association and ifs ProShare. Is For example, we have just seen the Department for there any chance that the Government might consider Work and Pensions award the contract for benefit cheques, that? the so-called green giros, to a rival organisation. Apart We would also like greater certainty about the eligibility from a couple of pilot projects, there has been little criteria. Who would be entitled to shares or share progress on the proposals for more Government business options, and what would that mean in practice? Would made in a letter from the National Federation of employees be able to act to influence the strategic SubPostmasters to the Secretary of State for Work and direction of the company to some extent, albeit from a Pensions dated 23 September last year. At the moment, minority position? In particular, what is to prevent the post bank promised in the Liberal Democrat manifesto shares from going to employees one day and being sold and mentioned in the coalition agreement looks like within a year or two? We all know of previous examples just another broken promise and missed opportunity, of where that has happened, with shares being rapidly especially after Labour had laid the foundations for it sold on to big institutions. What mechanisms are the before we left government. Nor is there any sign of any Government considering to prevent that from happening? other substantial new commercial business for the post We hope to hear from the Minister the extent of the office network. detail that the Government intend to report and how This complete failure to introduce new streams of much time they will provide for Parliament to consider business calls into question the wisdom of the way in the report. which the £1.34 billion of taxpayers’ money allocated to We welcome Lords amendments 2 to 8, which give the Post Office is being used, with the subsidy for Parliament increased control over the mutualisation of running the Post Office and the provision of a few new a Post Office company. The effect of amendments 2 to 4 counters seemingly accounting for the lion’s share of would be to subject the disposal of the Crown’s interest the funds. This also raises the question of what will in a Post Office company to a relevant mutual to the happen when the subsidy runs out in 2015. The Government 317 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 318 have stated that they wish to reduce their subsidy, but if private interests: it is actually 90%, and 10% will go to there are no new streams of Government business to the employees. The benefits to those employees will be make the network more viable, the post office network huge. The Bill recognises the importance of the work of will be in serious trouble. However, the fact that Lords the conscientious postman or woman who keeps the amendments 2 to 8 improve the opportunity for post coming through the letterbox six days a week, parliamentary scrutiny means that we will support them. come rain or shine, and the importance of the work We welcome Lords amendments 9 and 10, which force to the success of the company. The proposals will clarify that in the Post Office company’s annual report offer real benefits to the employees. to the Secretary of State on the post office network, I greatly welcome the fact that the pension plan details of postal services provided under arrangements members will be protected and that the subsuming of between a Post Office company and a universal service the pension plan is being brought forward. That will provider must be included. We welcome any amendments give tremendous reassurance to prospective pensioners that improve clarity and increase the opportunity for in Royal Mail. Perhaps most importantly, and despite parliamentary scrutiny. the disagreement of the Opposition, we are securing the Lords amendment 11 would require Royal Mail to future of the company. The worst thing would be for the report annually to the Secretary of State on its activities Government to do nothing, which would allow Royal in relation to the British Postal Museum collection and Mail to decline and fall. It is an unfortunate fact that, the Royal Mail archive. The proposal would also require under the previous Government, 65,000 Royal Mail the Secretary of State to lay the report before Parliament. employees lost their jobs and 7,000 post offices were In Committee, we sought amendments to ensure that closed. The future of the post office network is now the work of the British Postal Museum and Archive—the secure. I also greatly welcome the proposal for a vote BPMA—would continue following the passage of the before mutualisation. That will put in place important Bill, and that the heritage cared for by the curators of protections. the museum would be protected. That protection needs I should like to ask my hon. Friend the Minister a few to be strengthened, because the Bill moves us away from questions. Does he think that I have understated the a situation in which one Government-owned company, benefits for employees? Can he think of any others? Royal Mail, is clearly responsible for supporting and Can he give me an assurance that the universal service safeguarding our postal heritage, to one in which there obligation will be properly protected? Has he had any will be at least two companies with different ownership discussions with representatives of the Communication models. There will also be the potential for a privatised Workers Union, and, if so, what do they think about Royal Mail company to be taken over, perhaps by the proposals? foreign postal administrations or other companies with no interest in supporting Britain’s postal heritage. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is I do not feel that the Lords amendment is as strong as important that, when we come to the House, we should the one that we originally proposed. Nevertheless, anything reflect the feelings of our constituents. I should therefore that we can do to protect our heritage is to be welcomed. like to tell two stories. First, just before Christmas, I The BPMA is the leading resource for British postal visited the local postal sorting office at Sutton New heritage. It cares for visual, physical and written records road. I spoke to each of the excellent men and women dating back more than 400 years, including stamps, there. They told me how they had worked there for 10, poster design, photography, staff records and vehicles. 15 or 20 years. Some had worked there for 25 years. The BPMA is the custodian of two internationally They work in all weathers to provide an outstanding significant collections—the Royal Mail archive and the service to the people of north Birmingham. They felt collection of the former national postal museum. Together, bitter about what they regard as a betrayal of their loyal the museum and archive collections form a unique service to the country. record of a national institution, and offer a fascinating Secondly, I want to tell a story not so much about a perspective on the history of British society, design and local post office as about a local entrepreneur who industry. We want the strongest possible protection for wants to reopen a post office. We have in Perry Common the British Postal Museum collection and the Royal a community well served by the Witton Lodge community Mail archive, and although we were looking for stronger association. That community has backed an individual protection, we are of course pleased to lend our support who now runs the local grocery shop—it used to be a to that amendment. sub-post office—and he wants to reopen that post office. Through me, he has approached both the Post Lorely Burt: I welcome the Lords amendments that Office and the Government for support, only to have it we are considering today. They are an indication of the declined. If I may, I will return to that matter at the way in which the Government and the Opposition can conclusion of my remarks. work together, because the Government have obviously listened to the constructive suggestions made by Members 1.30 pm on both sides of the House. There is a great deal of The Lords amendments focus on local post offices, consensus; I believe that the amendments went through among other things, and the evidence is clear that they the other place without a Division. That goes to show are finding it increasingly hard to survive. By some just how well things can work when everyone is minded estimates, only 4,000 of the UK’s 11,905 post offices are to make that happen. economically viable. Despite assurances from the On the subject of shares going to employees, when I Government that there will be no further programme of wrongly tried to intervene on the hon. Member for post office closures, the evidence shows that branches Llanelli (Nia Griffith), I was going to point out that it is are closing every day of the week. More than 150 offices not 100% of the company that is being sold off to are closed on a long-term “temporary” basis and there 319 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 320 is no guarantee that these will re-open; many are likely on the IBA. Let me cite what Consumer Focus said in to stay closed indefinitely. As Consumer Focus stated in its evidence to the other place: a press release, “There are few safeguards to keep that contract for the long “we have continued to see a dwindling in the overall number of term. It’s entirely conceivable—though it seems an odd thing to branches.” suggest—but several years down the line you could have a post office network where you cannot undertake mail transactions. It Nationwide, 900 post offices are up for sale. That is why would be for Royal Mail to determine which operator—whether the Post Office cannot afford to lose any more revenue. it was Post Office Ltd or Tesco or whomever—to offer mail The post office network is already loss making and services and there would be no requirement for stamps or parcels.” depends on an annual Government subsidy to remain It continued: afloat. In 2009-10, the Post Office made an operating loss of £80 million before Government subsidy and its “You could see a scenario where Royal Mail looked to cherry pick so Tesco, say, could meet its requirements in urban areas and financial position continues to weaken. Its target this the Post Office would pick up the slack in rural areas where there year, excluding subsidy, is for a £120 million loss. isn’t anybody else. And that has very serious implications in terms The Government have pushed through this unwelcome of the viability and integrity of the network because urban areas Bill, allowing the privatisation of Royal Mail with scant typically make money.” regard for the consequences for the post office network Consumer Focus went on to argue that the number of or the universal service of a six-day delivery at a uniform, post offices could fall by 37% as a consequence of these affordable price across the whole of the UK. As the measures—from the current level of 11,900 to the minimum Labour Front-Bench team has made absolutely clear, number consistent with the Government’s access criteria we continue to oppose the wholesale privatisation of of 7,500. In Birmingham alone, seven post offices face the Royal Mail. We called on the Government for a closure. guarantee of an inter-business agreement between the The National Federation of SubPostmasters has added Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. The Government have its call to the need for action. It also argues for a refused to listen to that, including in these amendments, minimum 10-year IBA. Let me quote what it says: so they are abrogating their responsibilities to the post “The NFSP believes that in order to avoid further post office office network. closures, existing levels of Royal Mail work at post offices must be I have to say that Conservative and Liberal Democrat maintained with a minimum 10 year IBA between the two companies MPs are quick to use the Post Office in their localities following separation.” for their own political ends, but not as quick to stand up The Government’s stance is clear, albeit sad. They in this place for their local post offices at their time of have rejected a number of opportunities to make the need. I also have to say that the Government’s approach commitments that have been called for. calls into question the logic of allocating £1.3 billion of taxpayers’ money for subsidy and refurbishment of Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Is my hon. post offices when the Government are not prepared to Friend aware of the recommendation in the Select put a clause in the Bill to guarantee the future of Royal Committee on Scottish Affairs report that the Government Mail business to the Post Office. should be doing more to remove the barriers to local The Minister referred to history, and this remarkable post offices providing services in relation to devolved institution of the Post Office certainly has a remarkable and local government? history. We have seen over the last 50 to 100 years how it has developed ground-breaking initiatives that make Jack Dromey: To develop our post office network, it no profit but serve the community—ranging from free is necessary to be imaginative and creative. Sadly, we are delivery of articles for the blind to answering letters moving in the opposite direction. written to Santa free of charge. The Government’s stance could not be clearer. They Returning to the issue of the Post Office— have rejected a number of opportunities to make the commitment firm in this important legislation. They Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I might have declined to accept a statutory commitment, as be anticipating what the hon. Gentleman is going to do, exists in countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, but may I remind him that these Lords amendments are to a figure of 11,500. They have rejected the embedding quite specific, so he needs to focus his remarks on them? into the Bill of the access criteria on how near people’s Perhaps he was just about to do so. local post office will be. Post offices locally cannot live on warm words alone; good intentions and high hopes Jack Dromey: I was just about to do so, Madam mean naught if we cannot have guarantees for the Deputy Speaker, but like the Minister, I embarked on future. some historical anecdotes, as the Post Office is very proud of its history. Lorely Burt: Will the hon. Gentleman refresh my There is a simple inescapable reality, which is that the memory on how many new post offices were created Post Office is dependent on the Royal Mail’s business. A under the Labour Government? Was there not a net third of its revenue—£334 million—and a third of decline, or managed decline, of the Post Office amounting sub-postmasters’ pay—£240 million—is generated by to 7,000 post offices. Why does he decry the fact that selling Royal Mail products and services. The Bill does this coalition Government are doing all they can to not safeguard on a continuing basis the inter-business preserve and enhance the post office service that we agreement. The Government will not undertake to extend have inherited? the current five-year guarantee to 10 years. Key stakeholders recognise the importance of making a longer commitment Jack Dromey rose— 321 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 322

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. At the end of last year, I met in my constituency We are supposed to be discussing amendments that representatives of Action with Communities in Rural have come from the House of Lords and deal with Kent. Unfortunately, the Bill had already completed its commercial relationships, the interaction between various passage through the House of Commons. That organisation bodies and the issue of an employee share scheme. I does excellent work, with some public support. When a would be grateful—no, I insist that Members stick to post office closes—not as a result of any decision by the the amendments before us on these important issues. Government or a Minister, but because the person who owned the business has either passed on or retired—the Jack Dromey: In that case, I must regretfully resist organisation actively seeks a new location for it. In the the temptation to respond to the hon. Member for village where I live, a post office moved from stand-alone Solihull (Lorely Burt), much as I should like to do so. premises to the local pub. The mutualisation for which Let me make a point that goes to the heart of what the Bill provides can support such work, and should be you have just said, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have welcomed. been given few assurances about the method by which The Post Office’s own initiatives in developing the Royal Mail may be sold in a way that guarantees value post office local format can support the trend as well. for money for the taxpayer, and we have no idea who its As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, the Government’s new owner might be. We have no assurance that employee financial guarantee will expire in 2015. The Post Office shares will be held in trust and could not simply be sold should be using the intervening period to establish how on in a short period, which would defeat the objective it can adapt its activity to ensure that its business of employee involvement. We do not know for sure that platform is as sustainable as possible in the future. access pricing for Royal Mail competitors will be fair. The inter-business agreement is a two-way street. In An IBA should have been included in the Bill, on a terms of access for British consumers, the post office continuing basis. What will happen to the post office network is unrivalled by any other retail business. Its network after 2015, when the comprehensive spending footprint is much larger than those of all the supermarket review money runs out but the Bill’s provisions do not, chains put together, and it is very unlikely that Royal and when, sadly, we then embark on the path towards Mail could find another commercial provider which privatisation of Royal Mail? could match that. The IBA provides the possibility of Let me return to the two constituency stories that I an interesting two-way negotiation between the Post related earlier. Few jobs in Britain have been immortalised Office and Royal Mail. To what extent would Royal in children’s books, but Postman Pat reflects the high Mail like the Post Office to offer mail services from regard that exists for the postmen and postwomen in competing companies when it is given the freedom to Birmingham and Britain, and they feel badly let down do so? There is also the possibility that Royal Mail by the Bill. Will the Minister accept my invitation to could establish a better relationship with the post office visit Perry Common and meet Tarnjhit Dhesi, members network. The Bill provides the opportunity for a more of the Witton Lodge community association, and equal relationship than that which, at present, is skewed representatives of local care homes and tenants’ in Royal Mail’s favour. organisations? Will he sit down and listen to the case There is much to be welcomed in the Bill from a that they have put for the reopening of their post office business point of view. The Post Office should see it as in a small high street that some entrepreneurs are trying an opportunity to embrace mutualisation and a different to regenerate, at the heart of which is an admirable man type of relationship with Royal Mail which will enable who wants to provide a service for the community? it to provide a better service for its customers. That man said this to me: “Jack, I don’t understand why I read all these stories about the commitment to the 1.45 pm post office network. The post office here closed a couple Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I have expressed of years ago. We want to reopen, but the door has been opposition to post office closures for 10 years in the shut in our faces.” Will the Minister translate his House, and my view is unchanged. My colleagues and I commitment to local post offices into action by coming do not think that the Post Office should be privatised, to hear the voice of local people who want a local post but the Bill is going through. I would laugh if it were office? not so sad to hear Labour Members slagging off the Government, given the number of post offices that their Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Following party closed, but I had better confine my remarks to the the speech by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington amendments so that you do not call me to order, (Jack Dromey), I wish to raise a few points relating to Madam Deputy Speaker. the inter-business agreement and the post office network. Although I welcome Lords amendment 1 to an extent The network should be under some obligation to because it would improve the report, it does not provide adapt itself to the framework established by the a guarantee of business. That remains a difficulty: there Government. The creation of the post office local format, is considerable uncertainty in local post offices about which allows limited services to be provided through future business, and I fear that many more will close if it other retail businesses, is an example of that at work. is not dealt with. Many are closing now, not just because The location in his constituency that the hon. Gentleman of the Post Office side of the business but because of cited may well be the type of location in which the post the general state of the economy. At the risk of opening office can adapt its service to conform with the local up another front of argument between the two sides, I retail environment and, in doing so, begin to thrive. I will cite Ferryden in my constituency. During the closure also agree with the Government that mutualisation programme it was agreed that Ferryden’s post office was should be partly a bottom-up process and not entirely needed, but the post office was in the local shop, which driven from the top. recently closed. The reason was not to do with the post 323 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 324 office itself—and I appreciate that it is not within the to individual employees, we could have a very different Government’s immediate control—but the fact that the scenario. Experience of previous privatisations suggests small shop, the last in the village, was considered to be that a number of employees would immediately sell no longer economic. When the shop went, the post their shareholdings, and others would be likely to sell at office went as well. some future date, either when they retire or, perhaps, by The same difficulty exists in rural areas throughout their executors on death. There is absolutely nothing the country. With respect to the hon. Member for wrong with that; they would be their shares so they can Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), post offices dispose of them as they see fit. Such actions could, will not take up the slack in rural areas, because they are however, have a serious consequence for the continuation closing there as well. It is a simple case of economics. It of a workers’ shareholding within the company, because is unlikely that the Ferryden post office will go to of the operation of our current company law, and another business, because it does not exist. The chances especially as Ministers have made it absolutely clear are that it will end up as an outreach programme and a that they would be relaxed about Royal Mail being restricted service to the village. The important thing is bought by either one of the major foreign postal operators to try to keep some postal villages in that village. I or private equity companies up to the remaining 90% should have preferred an inter-business agreement that figure. provided certainty about the future level of business. I I remind the House that in cases where private equity appreciate the difficulties, but the continued uncertainty companies have bought listed companies, they have on does not help. occasion de-listed the company and operated it as a My main point about the Lords amendment relates private company. I particularly draw Members’ attention to new section (3A)(b), which concerns the proposed to the terms of section 429 of the Companies Act 1985, share scheme. I wanted to raise the issue at an earlier which gives provision in respect of implementation of stage, but unfortunately we ran out of time. The amendment the EU directive on takeover bids. One of the purposes states that when shares are sold for the first time, details of the directive was to deal with the problems of, and of the employee share scheme will be given. However, for, residual minority shareholders following a successful we do not know what the structure of the scheme will takeover bid, processes known as “squeeze out” and be. Clause 3(2) states that when the Crown no longer “sell out”. The provisions in question provide that owns any part of Royal Mail, the share held by or on following a takeover offer: behalf of the employee share scheme must be at least “If the offeror has, by virtue of acceptances of the offer, 10%. I know that the Minister said that on the first sale acquired or unconditionally contracted to acquire— of shares the share scheme details would be given, but (a) not less than nine-tenths in value of the shares to which the the 10% is vitally important, because the Bill otherwise offer relates, and allows the sale of 90% of the company to one another (b) in a case where the shares to which the offer relates are entity, such as another postal operator. Leaving aside voting shares, not less than nine-tenths of the voting rights the argument put by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia carried by those shares, Griffith) on behalf of the Opposition about whether he may give notice to the holder of any shares to which the offer 10% is an appropriate figure, the choice of this level relates which the offeror has not acquired or unconditionally does present a potential difficulty, depending on how contracted to acquire that he desires to acquire those shares.” the shareholding is held. In Committee, the Minister In effect, therefore, anyone who acquires 90% of the was pressed on whether the shareholding would be held shareholding in a company can force the sale of the in a trust for the benefit of the employees—the so-called shares of the remaining small shareholders and become John Lewis model—or whether it would be given in sole owner of the company. If the Government were to individual shares to the workers. We did not receive an sell 90% of Royal Mail to, say, Deutsche Post, there answer to that question. could clearly be a potential difficulty in regard to the workers’shareholding in the future if that is held individually Fiona O’Donnell: Has the hon. Gentleman’s party by Post Office workers. If at any time the individual had any discussions with the Government about the shares held by the work force were to fall below 10%, future of the Royal Mail in an independent Scotland? there is the potential for the owner of the remaining 90% to force a sale and therefore wipe out the shareholdings Mr Weir: The hon. Lady has taken her chances by of the workers. asking that question, but it goes beyond the scope of I am sure the Minister will, in his usual inimitable the amendments before us. The Post Office is very manner, tell me that I am constructing a theoretical important to rural areas of Scotland, and I will merely problem that would not occur in the real world, but I note that the Scottish Government have done much wanted to propose an amendment on this point because more than the UK Government to help rural post of a real case of this kind involving constituents of offices in the future—such as through the diversification mine. My constituents, who are pensioners, were and rates rebate schemes. That illustrates what we would shareholders in Dana Petroleum, and had been for a do in an independent Scotland. large number of years. The company was not paying To return to the point I was making before being led dividends, but the shareholding did increase in value down this interesting side road, the lack of detail about and my constituents regarded it as a nest egg for the the structure presents a dilemma because, depending on future. Unfortunately, Dana Petroleum was subject to a what method is chosen, there could be unintended hostile takeover by the Korean National Oil Corporation, consequences in the future. If the John Lewis method is which I believe is state-owned—I believe it is part of a pursued, there may well be no problem, in that it will be sovereign wealth fund. That company purchased the a trust holding and will, in all likelihood, be held at or majority of shares, although my constituents did not above the 10% level. However, if the shares are distributed wish to accept its offer. The new owners decided to 325 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 326

[Mr Weir] absolutely no illusion about how things will progress, and I say on behalf of them that we need to ensure that de-list the company, with the effect that my constituents they have such continuity. were forced to sell their shareholdings, in their case Under the new law, the universal service for six days a causing a capital gains tax liability. week with one price sending post anywhere could be Unless the Government give us details of the form downgraded in just four years, and it is feared that the the shareholding will take, there is a genuine danger everyday post office user will experience price hikes and that we could face that situation within Royal Mail in have to pay for the privatisation. The unions have the future. If the Minister will stand up and say, “It will pointed out the possible consequences of privatisation be the John Lewis model; it will be a share trust of at in respect of postal services, and I look forward to least 10% of the shares for all the employees in the hearing the Minister comment on that point. This has company”, I do not think there will be a problem. already happened in the Netherlands and Germany, Alternatively, however, we might go down the same where the rural service has been reduced to three days a road as with previous utility sales, where individual week, and the costs have risen. shares were given to the workers and that shareholding within the companies has been reduced over the years. It is interesting to note that many of the former utilities 2pm are now offering special deals to get small shareholders We might find examples where what is being proposed to sell out their remaining shares because they do not here has not worked out elsewhere, so what lessons have want the small shareholders. Although this idea of the Government taken to ensure that the same does not worker participation is a good one, I would rather the happen in this process? company was not privatised. If that does happen, however, I am keen and anxious to discover whether the the bigger the workers’ shareholding within it, the better, Government have taken full account of the views of and the shareholders would, it is to be hoped, have real sub-postmasters. I understand that some 92% of them rights. have said that they feel that the Post Office is “very unlikely” As there is a lack of detail on this point, there is a or “unlikely”to survive without the mail business provided danger that we will end up with nothing for the workers by Royal Mail. As so many people are saying that, it and the company wholly in the hands of one, possibly would be unwise of the Government to ignore it. foreign, postal service or private equity company. The As we all know the statistics on this, I do not intend recent experience of private equity companies buying to go into them. What consideration have the Government out limited companies is not a good one; we need only given to the crucial role of post offices in the community? look at the current problems with Southern Cross to see I believe that we all agree that our post offices are more that. I ask the Minister to reflect on this issue, and give than just post offices; they are a social meeting point for us an assurance on it, or at least more information as to a great many people. I know that that does not come how the shareholding is to be held. into the economics of a post office, but it must be part of the process in deciding which post offices can remain Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am aware that open. Finance will be the driver in that, but post offices you have asked us to focus on the amendments, Madam provide an opportunity for people to mix and mingle Deputy Speaker, and I intend to do just that. I want to and the staff have clear contacts with the people in the focus my comments on Lords amendment 9 to clause 11, community. Most of the hon. Members who are going referring in particular to the universal service provider. to speak today will probably speak from a rural community While some level of provision is given, I am not entirely background. The National Consumer Council has shown convinced that we will have a better service. That is my that the Post Office was thought to be more accessible opinion, and it is informed by the views of the people I than banks, and we cannot ignore that. When we decide represent, because they are telling me the same thing. It what is going to happen with the Post Office today and is being said not only by Post Office personnel, and what could happen in five or 10 years’ time, we have to among them it is stated by both those who own post ensure that we will get things right. Only 4% of villages offices—postmistresses and postmasters—and the Postman have a bank, whereas 60% of them have a post office, so Pats of this world who do the hard graft out on the we should ask communities such as mine about this. It streets. Some Members have spoken about the business would be remiss of me not to make that point in the plan that post offices need in order to make them House today and not to ask the Government to tell us sustainable. Can the Minister convince me and other exactly what assurances we will be given. It is the Members—and, through the Hansard report of the essentials provided on a week-to-week basis that the debate, convince my constituents—that the service will banks do not do, because they are not in these places continue to deliver in the large rural community I but the post offices are. represent that stretches from Portaferry to Ballynahinch? What consideration has been given to the view of For many of my constituents, post offices are a businesses in rural communities that are near to the crucial part of their community. They are the front post offices? They say that some 15% of their revenue is office of government. I am unconvinced that the revenues created in the post offices, so has full consideration been of sub-post offices will not decline, and that could lead given to that? What assurance do we have that that will to some of them closing. We need the Minister to continue to happen in the post offices? The fact that the respond to that point. service provision is universal is a crucial factor in what Some Members have spoken about the continuity of happens and what we take forward. contracts beyond five years, and that is essential. The I raise the following point because I was asked it by postmistresses and postmasters of the rural post offices the Royal National Institute of Blind People and other in the areas I represent have told me that they are under hon. Members have alluded to it. If closures go ahead, 327 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 328 they will hit the blind and partially sighted particularly Michael Connarty: The part of the Bill I am talking hard, leaving them even more socially and financially about— excluded than they have ever been before. They will no longer be able to use their local post office to help with Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. the mountain of forms pushed on them by civil servants. We are not discussing the entire Bill. We are having a So the role of the post offices in rural communities time-limited debate about specific amendments. The and in urban centres is a crucial factor in terms of how Minister knows that as well as every other Member of people can respond to any changes that will take place. this House, so I am sure that he does not want to tempt Worryingly, as I said in my introduction—I will say it the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk again and I look forward to hearing the response—I do (Michael Connarty) down that path. Perhaps the hon. not believe that the Government have convinced the Gentleman can focus specifically on these amendments general public that the changes that are coming are so that the Minister will not be troubled. changes for the better. I am not convinced of that, neither are the people who speak to me, the postmasters Michael Connarty: I was talking about the amendments; and postmistresses, or the Royal Mail staff. Most the new requirement in Lords amendment 1 is that the importantly, the general public, who we have a duty and report must include the responsibility to look after, are not convinced of it either. “objective intended to be achieved” by the disposal of shares. That is a specific Lords Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): amendment and I am questioning what will be put Despite all these amendments, which have been won by before the House as a result. Will it be a report on the clear arguments put by Labour Members in the House progress of fragmentation and of these parts in trying of Lords and the Cross Benchers who supported them, to achieve the Minister’s stated aim for his sale of these I am still concerned about having a Bill that is fit for shares? purpose. The Minister has spoken repeatedly about finding Lords amendment 1 provides a new requirement that some way of saving the post office network. I know that the report made by the Secretary of State will make great steps have been made on the Bill through the clear the amendments won by the diligent efforts of Labour “objective intended to be achieved” Members and Cross Benchers in the Lords. There will be some sort of inter-business agreement and it will be by the disposal of shares in Royal Mail. I have followed extended. I know that the Minister is not trying to pull this issue very closely so I know that everything else the wool over our eyes, because he is telling us about his falls on that. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I aspirations. However, when I hear him talk, I am unsure am the secretary of the Communication Workers Union what his benchmarks for achievement under these liaison group of MPs in this House and have been so for amendments will be if it turns out that his idea of more than a decade. Despite all the Minister’s warm having a full network of post offices and post office words, it is not clear what this is meant to achieve that “locals” does not work, the “locals” fade away and—I can be achievable under this privatisation model as believe this will happen—we begin to lose post offices at structured. a faster rate than would have happened under the Does the “objective intended” include maintaining previous Government’s plans to stop the flood by taking Royal Mail as an organisation able to deliver to all parts out a number of post offices and hoping to leave of the UK for a single charge or two varying charges? enough business for those that remained. The Bill and the amendments provide no guarantees that that is the case. Will that be covered in the report I did not agree with that approach, but I recognised given each year by the Secretary of State to the House what the previous Government were trying to do. I do in order to show just how far the failure has been not understand how the Secretary of State will report progressed, and how far my concerns and those of on these matters as a result of these amendments. If the other Opposition Members have been realised? If we report were honest, it might suggest that we have to do were to fragment the Royal Mail—it is entirely possible something different. I want the Minister to tell us what that that will happen as there is nothing to prevent it he feels his duties now are as a result of these amendments under the Government’s privatisation model—a Scottish or what he feels the duties will be of whoever succeeds regional mail delivery service could be given responsibility him, should there ever be a change of Minister. I do not for meeting that objective under this model. That provider wish such a change upon him, because he deserves to might then find that that particular part of the United come back to apologise for everything he is now bringing Kingdom—the same could happen in places such as about. Cornwall and elsewhere in the south-west—the sparsity Is this about return to the Exchequer? Let us look at of the population and the diversity of the communities the attempts of previous Governments to sell shares mean that it is not possible to make a profit. This and at the way in which they sold those shares. The sale process is about a privatisation and about giving of the first tranche of British Telecom shares achieved a organisations the right to run Royal Mail as an organisation 90% profit in one day for those who bought them, that must make a profit. The Bill would allow them to because it was an attempt to get quick money into the come back to ask the Secretary of State to allow them Exchequer—or was it just to get British Telecom into to get rid of that universal service obligation. the private sector? If it was to get money into the Exchequer, the then Government appear to have greatly Mr Davey: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House short-changed themselves and the country. A better which part of the Bill he is worried about? Which part example, also in telecoms, is provided by the sale of will cause the fragmentation he is describing? level 3 broadband, in which we made a substantial 329 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 330

[Michael Connarty] therefore whether the Minister, if he speaks on this again, will give some idea of what is going on to give us profit for the Exchequer because of the way in which we an infrastructure for these matters. auctioned it off, although that did not please people in My final point is about the sale of shares to employees. the industry. The record is exactly as the hon. Member for Angus I would like the Minister to tell us how these things (Mr Weir) said. Shares are slowly but surely bought up are going to work. Will the judgment be based on return by large organisations. The famous case is the one with to the Exchequer? I know that the Government will, if Sid and the idea that Sid had some power, but Sid’s they get their way, want to balance that against their shares are probably now owned by several multinational willingness to take on any deficit in the pension fund hedge funds or equity funds or perhaps by insurance that comes with taking on the pension assets. These companies or a pension fund or two. There is this idea matters have to be clearly spelt out by the Secretary of that members of the work force will get shares that will State so that people can judge what he is going to do in give them some sense of ownership, and I remember the the Bill. That is what is accepted in the amendment. first debates in which this was talked about by Ministers. People want more clarity because we have not been This is one of the myths that the Liberals like to given a clear understanding of the benchmarks and push—that if someone is given a few shares, that will targets that the Government hope to achieve. We have make them a part of the ownership of the business. It had warm words and aspirations, but given the backdrop— does not do that unless those shares come with some the person who has given those assurances has previously powers. As we have seen from many of the banks’ recent given assurances that they were against full privatisation annual general meetings, even having large amounts of of the Post Office—we would like to see something a bit shares does not give one any power over bonuses, more solid on the ground. Perhaps the Minister could performance or the behaviour of the people who run say something about what the intentions are. the companies. What will come with the deal apart from The amendment also asks for more information about a few stocks and shares that will be stuck in the bank the purpose and structure of the mutualisation. It has until they are sold to fund a holiday? been suggested to the Government that it might be useful to set up a task force immediately, but I do not 2.15 pm think they have taken that idea up. The idea is to give share options to the members of a work force who have Lorely Burt: The hon. Gentleman says that having seen 55,000 of their members thrown out the door large numbers of shares does not necessarily help, but already and who have heard from the chief executive in being a small shareholder can be extremely helpful in the past few days that another 40,000 are about to go large companies in which even small shareholders have behind them, so there is hardly going to be an atmosphere a say and a voice. in which anything can be done mutually unless a lot of hard work is done. Michael Connarty: I only wish that that were true. I assure the hon. Lady that although small shareholders I agree with the points made my hon. Friend the can go along and make a protest and trumpet what they Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) have to say, the bonuses, the sale of companies and the about the hard work and dedication of long-term Post redundancies will still be voted through regardless of Office employees. We know that people go and work small the shareholders’ shouting. I am not in the business there in the short term and realise that it is a difficult of standing on the fringe and shouting. I would much job with unbelievably hard hours and that they often prefer the Bill to be rejected out of hand. I am against have to work in the most inclement weather to get the the privatisation of Royal Mail and I believe that the mail through. However, many of the people who have pension fund deficit was caused by the holidays taken been there for a long time want the company to succeed by Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd, which were allowed and want its work force to be secured and modernised. by previous Governments of both hues. I would rather A task force would be useful, and it would be useful if be standing here opposing what the Government are the Minister would spell out exactly what will be the about to do to Royal Mail because I think that all the benchmark for mutualisation so that the amendments assurances we have been given, hard-won though they have some value when they are in the Bill. are, will not make a difference. Capitalism will work as capitalism works and will do Mr Weir: The proposal is for the mutualisation not of what is to the advantage of the people who hold the Royal Mail but of Post Office Ltd, so the average postie majority of the shares for the bottom line of their does not come into this. They are the ones who will be dividends. That will mean that people will lose their subject to whoever takes over. Mutualisation will apply jobs and the Post Office will not be sustained using only to Post Office Ltd after it is demerged from Royal Royal Mail, which will not continue to provide a universal Mail some time in the future. service at one price. The amendments will have to come with a lot more specific targets, which I do not see in the Michael Connarty: That is even more frightening. Bill or in any of the schedules to the Bill. Although I People at that end of the business are facing the same welcome the smaller amendments that have been made problems from the same management. If the management in this part of the Bill, I do not believe they will make a model has changed, I would like to think that the major difference to the outcome for Royal Mail or Post Minister would put that forward. Office Ltd. Those are my concerns about the amendments, which have been hard won and which came with a promise Mr Davey: The hon. Member for Linlithgow and from the Government that there would be real changes East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) finished where the that would make a difference to the Bill. I wonder hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) started—in 331 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 332 total opposition to the Bill. I have to tell the Opposition shares to include details about the employee share scheme. that they are ignoring the economic and financial reality I would have thought that she would have supported of Royal Mail. As a result of the reduction in letter that welcome development. volumes because of technology such as e-mail, the We would certainly want to report on such things as internet, text messaging and social networking, it is the terms by which shares would transfer to the employee losing a huge amount of money. The reduction in letter share scheme and the design of the scheme. Such detail volumes—its core business—is predicted to fall again might include questions of whether there would be a and again, but it is not only Royal Mail that is affected. trust model or individual shares, or a mixture of the Every postal administration around the world is seeing two. There would also be consideration of the percentages letter volumes and revenues go down. That means that to be transferred and the governance arrangements. those administrations are leaching money and something The hon. Lady asked how the shares will be allocated, has to be done. The previous Government failed to do but clearly that is a point for later discussion. Such a anything, although I should pay tribute to Lord Mandelson, point might be addressed in the report. We can imagine who had the decency, on Second Reading in the other allocating shares to employees on many bases, such as place, to recognise that we were on the right track with length of service, grade and salary. The Government this Bill. The fact that Labour Front Benchers are would certainly not object to a proposal that shares and unable to recognise that today is testament to Labour’s their benefits should be allocated evenly across employees unwillingness to face up to the reality of the challenges. to ensure that there is equal entitlement regardless of grade, salary or length of service. We have been clear Nia Griffith: I am sorry to stray away from the that the scheme is for all employees of Royal Mail, not amendment, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I think it just the management, so I hope that people will not run needs to be put on the record that our Bill, as it stood as away with the wrong idea. Lord Mandelson was taking it through the other place, Several Opposition Members asked what would stop would clearly have kept Royal Mail in majority public employees from selling shares immediately. Again, we ownership. That was written into the Bill, but it is not in are not making premature decisions about the scheme’s the current Bill. We are talking about a totally different design, but we have always said, as I have repeated Bill that goes for 100% privatisation. They are two several times, that we are designing the scheme with completely different scenarios and the amendments in longevity in mind—there are many attractions to a trust the Bill arise largely from some of the situations created model for that very reason. However, it is not true that by that difference. individual employees’ shares are always sold off by those employees. People arguing that point try to pray Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Perhaps in aid the BT example, but the Public Bill Committee we could return to the amendments. We are debating heard evidence that 66% of BT employees held on to the Lords amendments to the Bill—this is not Third their shares after the share plan had matured, so there is Reading. The Minister is experienced and knows that. longevity in share ownership, even with the individual He has made his opening remarks. Will he answer the model. A lot of myths are cited by those who oppose debate please? employee share ownership, which was no doubt why the Labour party did not include employee shares in its 2009 Bill. Mr Davey: I am looking forward to doing that, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Llanelli welcomed Lords amendment 1 but felt that it did not go Mr Weir: The Minister says that 66% of those employees far enough. Despite all the arguments we have had in held on to their shares, but if they were 66% of a this place, she still believes that an inter-business agreement proportion of 10%, they would still be well below the should be in the Bill, as do a number of her party’s threshold, so there could be a forced sale by the majority members. owner of the shares. I do not wish to rehearse the long speeches that were Mr Davey: I listened carefully to that interesting made on Report, when our debate on this particular point in the hon. Gentleman’s speech, and the way in point lasted for about three hours, but let me repeat that which he eloquently described the situation and referred putting provisions in the Bill in the way in which the to the Companies Act 2006 showed that we need to hon. Lady suggests would create a significant risk of ensure that we design the scheme carefully. We will do legal challenge owing to incompatibility with competition so, because we want to deliver on employee share ownership, law. In addition, such an approach would almost certainly which is an objective of the Liberal Democrats, the face a state aid challenge. I would have thought that she coalition Government and the Bill. would have realised that, because it has been accepted by many who have examined the situation in detail. The hon. Member for Llanelli was generally supportive of the proposals on mutualisation, but she spent a lot of The hon. Lady says that the absence of such provisions time—do tell me if I stray out of order, Madam Deputy means that there is no protection for post offices, but Speaker?—saying that Government front-office services the whole point is that the detail set out in our policy had not been delivered. We are turning around the statement will enable them to be more profitable. It is decline under which the previous Administration took real business that will save the post office network, away more than £300 million of Government services not legal provisions in the Bill, so I disagree with her from post offices. Our policy statement and the things point. that we are delivering show that there is a real future for The hon. Lady spent some time talking about employee the front office of government. shares. The Lords amendments will require the Secretary of State’s report to Parliament at the time of first sale of Nia Griffith rose— 333 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 334

Mr Davey: The hon. Lady is in no position to criticise We are working hard across the Government to ensure the Government about this, but I am happy to allow her that we can position Post Office Ltd in a place from to intervene—I hope that she will be able to remain in which it can win contracts from Government Departments order. in Whitehall and local authorities to deliver the front office of government. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that Nia Griffith: We are talking about the mutualisation a huge amount of work is being done on this, and he of the Post Office, but that can take place only if it is needs to be a little patient. viable. Will the Minister tell us what new streams of The problem is that when we came into government Government business have been given to the Post Office and developed the strategy, the cupboard was bare in the past year? because the previous Government had done almost nothing. They had allowed the post office network and Mr Davey: The hon. Lady is right—and we have been the process for developing new business to wither on the clear about this—that the network must be viable before vine because they were so busy closing 7,000 post offices. going to mutualisation. The problem is that we inherited I have to tell Opposition Members that the tender for a post office network that was so badly managed that the green giro began under the previous Government, we had to turn it round. She asks for specific details, but so they really ought to be careful. We have had to deal she knows that several were set out in our November with the tender that Labour Ministers wrote. policy statement. She ought to know that the National Federation of SubPostmasters welcomed the start of Fiona O’Donnell: The Minister will no doubt want to the pilot scheme offering document verification for read the piece of paper that has just arrived in front of pension applications in 106 post offices in the north-east. him, but perhaps I should read him what the National She should also know that that is only the first of three Federation of SubPostmasters actually said: planned pilots with the Department for Work and “The government’s decision not to award the new contract for Pensions; the other two involve national insurance benefit cheques to the Post Office does not bode well.” applications and testing the impact of requiring jobseekers who sign on by post to attend their local post office It seems to me that competence in the Government is instead. I would have thought that she would have not as high as he— welcomed such pilots. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Will the Minister, in answering, return to the question Fiona O’Donnell: I note that the Minister missed the of viability and the links with mutuality in the context green giro off that list. The position not only puts the of the amendments we are discussing? post office network in my constituency at risk, but means that people who cannot access a PayPoint in their villages must travel to cash their cheques. 2.30 pm Mr Davey: I agree that we should focus on the long-term Mr Davey: I expressed my disappointment that Post viability of the post office network. I recently attended Office Ltd did not win that contract from the Department the annual conference of the National Federation of for Work and Pensions, but I have described three pilots SubPostmasters in Torbay, where we discussed the sorts on which the DWP is working with Post Office Ltd. I of thing we are proposing and they were able to look at could also have talked about the proposals on credit the new machines that Post Office Ltd is developing to unions that we hope will go forward, or the fact that position itself to win Government contracts, such as the Post Office Ltd has won a contract with the London application, enrolment and identity machine, which is boroughs so that local authority staff can have an already being used for contracts from the Driver and authentication service at the local post office. If that Vehicle Licensing Agency. They already have a portable scheme develops, it might have applications throughout one, which could be used across the network, and a the country. Such developments have been welcomed number of other machines. The sub-postmasters were by the National Federation of SubPostmasters, but of absolutely delighted. I wish that Opposition Members course we want to go further, which is why we are so who have spoken today had been there, because the pleased to have persuaded the Royal Bank of Scotland sub-postmasters showed greater confidence in the future to enable its customers to access their bank accounts of their post offices and their businesses than they do. through the post office network, which we believe will start to happen from September. I would have thought I will respond to some of the comments made by that the hon. Lady would welcome such developments. other hon. Members who have spoken. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) for her Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): comments. She mentioned the benefits to employees If such developments arrive in the future they will be that will result from the proposals on employee shares welcome, but will the Minister return to the point about set out in the amendments, and she mentioned pensions, the green giro? Do we have joined-up government? This which we will come to later. She specifically asked what was an opportunity to boost the Post Office, so why did discussions we have had with the Communication Workers the Government not do something about it? Surely the Union on some of the amendments. It is interesting that Minister, as a Liberal, will not just blame European on 13 April the CWU issued a press release in which it regulations. said that it welcomed the amendments to the Bill. Its general secretary, Mr Billy Hayes, said: Mr Davey: I certainly would not—but when Labour “We warmly welcome these amendments…We are pleased that Members make such points they really have a cheek, Government has taken on board some of our concerns”. because their Government removed more than £300 million I have met the CWU, and it has noticed the progress of Government services from the post office network. that we have made. 335 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 336

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Mr Davey: The reason why I am not agreeing to the Dromey) complained that post offices in his constituency hon. Gentleman’s kind invitation is that, under legislation would close as a result of the amendments, but I hope that has been on the statute books for many years, and that he tells his constituents that four post offices closed based on the practice of the previous Government, Post in his constituency under the previous Government. All Office Ltd decides where Post Office “locals” open, so if Members across the House will have discussed post that is his request he needs to address it to Post Office office closures with many people in many communities. Ltd managers. What we are offering in these amendments and in the Bill is hope that the Post Office will not see a repeat of Jim Shannon: Hon. Members have referred to the those closure programmes, which have devastated so pilots, but has there been a UK-wide pilot, or any in many people. Scotland or Northern Ireland? If there has, could we The hon. Gentleman asked what would happen after have some idea of the feedback from them? the spending review. The modernisation that the Bill and the amendments will enable us to undertake with Mr Davey: There have been Post Office “locals” pilots the £1.34 billion will allow us to go further and continue in all parts of the country. We are up to 80 local the transformation. I believe that what we have with the schemes, and Post Office Ltd has tried to pilot them in funding package and the proposals is a radical change, urban, rural, suburban and urban-deprived areas. It is but one that will lead to a sustainable network. He trying to test them out over time, taking account of knows, because I wrote to him on 9 February, that the seasonality and cash flow, so we are learning an awful post office in Perry Common closed under the previous lot of lessons from them. The recent analysis of the Government. Reopening it would lead to business migrating “locals” project by Consumer Focus is publicly available, away from nearby offices at College road and Hawthorn and although it has some concerns about privacy it was road, which could jeopardise all three offices, which I able to show that on issues such as access, longer am sure is not what he wants. opening hours and reduced queues, people have found the projects to be a beneficial step forward. Jack Dromey: The Minister speaks of hope, and the The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said same word was used when the Bill was launched. Seven that he was concerned about the universal service obligation post offices in Birmingham now face closure, one of and worried that the Bill would undermine it. Far from which is in the Yardley constituency of a Liberal Democrat it: one of the Bill’s main objectives is to secure the Member. Will the Minister agree to meet the community universal service, and Opposition Members have failed of Perry Common, which has signed a 1,000-strong to realise that clause 30 includes stronger protections petition asking for the reopening of a flexible post for the universal service than was previously the case. office in their locality? Earlier this week another Minister The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) made a very went to Perry Common and held it out as an excellent informed speech. He was a distinguished member of the example of a community that has rebuilt its environment. Public Bill Committee, who failed to attend only on the It now wants to rebuild its high street, and it wants few occasions when the weather prevented him from a sub-post office on it. Will the Minister meet the flying down to London, but in looking at the amendments community and Mr Tarnjhit Dhesi, who is driving that before us I have to say that he has made the mistake of proposal? calling for guaranteed business for the post office network and, almost, of wanting to keep things in aspic. Mr Davey: I say to the hon. Gentleman and his On the train down to the annual meeting of the constituents that they should look at the economics of National Federation of SubPostmasters, I read the the post office network in the area, because there are federation’s account of its 100-year history, which mentions other post offices nearby, and talk with Post Office Ltd the concerns that existed when telegrams were being about the “locals” model that my hon. Friend the phased out, and when postal orders were used. In other Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) words, the business and services that have gone through mentioned. our post office network have changed hugely, and we The “locals” model holds real prospects for dealing have had to develop them and move on, so setting with some of the post office network’s cost problems, things in aspic—putting things in the Bill, as some and for helping to revive shops on our high streets by Members want—would not help. bringing them and post offices together. In our pilots, not only have postal operators liked the model that we Mr Weir: With respect to the Minister, this is not are developing, but so have post office customers and about setting things in aspic. The problem is that there local communities. Having seen the evidence, some is a great deal of uncertainty, because the Royal Mail is communities that were sceptical have been delighted by up for privatisation, the link between the Royal Mail the service quality that Post Office “locals”have delivered. and Post Office Ltd now relies on the good will of That is the future, and my hon. Friend was quite right whoever runs Royal Mail, and with no guarantee of to turn to it. business it is difficult for those trying to sell post offices to find people to take them on, as they are uncertain of Jack Dromey: I am sorry to press the point, but my what business there will be in one or two years’ time. local community has looked at the pilots, is inspired by the prospect of flexible provision and wants to engage, Mr Davey: We are in danger of going over old ground. but it has had the door closed in its face. Ministers say The hon. Gentleman will know, because we have had that they are offering hope and are prepared to listen, so this debate many times, that it is my view that post will the Minister meet a delegation from Perry Common offices are in a very strong position in this negotiation, and Mr Dhesi? because the idea that Royal Mail is going to absent itself 337 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 338

[Mr Davey] Lords amendments 12 to 14 concern the pensions provisions. Lords amendment 12 is, I must confess, not from the post office network and allow its competitors the easiest technical amendment that hon. Members to go in there is, frankly, nonsense. As for the particular will have had the pleasure of scrutinising, but I will issue that he has been raising with Post Office Ltd—the attempt to explain it as clearly as possible. The amendment closure of Ferryden post office—he will know that that concerns the transfer of assets from the Royal Mail closed not because of any action of the Government or pension plan—RMPP—to the Government and is designed Post Office Ltd but following the resignation of the to deal with the fact that we expect the assets to transfer sub-postmaster. Post Office Ltd is looking at all available in two tranches. An estimated amount of the assets will options to keep that service in his constituency open. transfer when Government takes on the historical liabilities of the RMPP. However, there will be a time lag between Mr Weir: If the Minister reads my remarks, he will this point and the point when the necessary actuarial see that that is what I said. I understand that the closure valuations are finalised. We will need a second transfer at Ferryden is not the Government’s responsibility. I to take place when the scheme valuation has been have been in touch with the Post Office and it is trying completed: a corrective, or “mop-up”, transfer. The to get an alternative, but it looks as though it will be an amendment ensures that this two-stage transfer is possible outreach service rather than anything else. That is a and that any adjustments applied to the second transfer reduction in service to that community. are disregarded so that the funding level test to protect RMPP funding levels works as intended. This funding Mr Davey: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be level test, assessed at the effective date of the transfers, engaging in that debate with Post Office Ltd. should not be affected by any market movement in the The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk assets that transfer later. (Michael Connarty) asked, in the context of the report, In supporting Lords amendment 12, I would like to what objectives we have for Royal Mail and the Post be clear on one broader point. The Bill provides a Office. We have made it very clear that securing the safeguard in clause 21 so that the ratio of assets to universal service obligation is our top objective. Getting liabilities in the RMPP must be no worse after assets a good deal for Royal Mail and for the taxpayer is transfer to the Government than before. However, we essential. There is no objective of fragmenting Royal intend to go beyond that minimum and leave the RMPP Mail as he described. When he suggested that employee fully funded after transfer, subject to state aid approval. shares were not a good thing for employees, I began to despair. The only correct thing that he said was that 2.45 pm employee share ownership—ownership of the company Lords amendment 13 will put in place a legal framework in which one is working—needs to be combined with for the sharing of information between the new public involvement in worker participation. scheme, the trustees of the Royal Mail pension plan and We should look at what is happening in Royal Mail at relevant employers. In her evidence to the Public Bill the moment. Someone who goes to sorting offices such Committee, the chair of the Royal Mail pension plan as Gatwick, Greenford or Cardiff, as I have done, sees a trustees, Jane Newell, stressed the importance of ensuring world-class mail system and the rolling out of a programme a seamless service for pension plan members who will of modernisation that involves the workers directly and find themselves with accrued rights in two schemes, has as one of its key objectives the health and safety of rather than one. That is exactly what Lords amendment 13 those workers. Sorting offices are being made not only seeks to do. It will, for example, facilitate the provision more productive but safer. There is great employee to members of a single benefit statement, rather than involvement. If we link that with employee share ownership, two. this business will have a real future. I hope that the Lords amendment 14, which is the final amendment House will welcome this group of amendments from to the pensions provisions, will simply allow secondary the other place, and give them its approval. legislation made under the pensions provisions to be Lords amendment 1 agreed to. commenced on a day specified by the Secretary of State Lords amendments 2 to 11 agreed to. through a commencement order. That might be necessary to synchronise the various elements of the pensions solution. Lords amendments 23 and 27 will give effect to the Clause 21 recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in the other place. The Government RESTRICTION ON POWER TO TRANSFER ASSETS listen carefully to the views of that wise and respected Committee, as is reflected by the fact that we have Mr Davey: I beg to move, That this House agrees with accepted the two recommendations of its report on Lords amendment 12. the Bill. Lords amendment 23 concerns the appeals regime in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this part 3. Clause 58 allows the Secretary of State to apply, it will be convenient to take Lords amendments 13, 14, with or without modifications, certain provisions of the 23, 24 and 26 to 28. Enterprise Act 2002 to appeals made under the Bill. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee Mr Davey: The amendments in this group are either recommended that the provision be modified to prevent minor or technical—or, indeed, both. However, they it from being broad enough to allow increases in civil or make some important improvements to the Bill that I criminal penalties beyond the levels set out in the Enterprise hope all hon. Members will feel able to support. Act 2002. Lords amendment 23 will do just that. 339 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 340

The second recommendation of the Delegated Powers Lords amendment 12 agreed to. and Regulatory Reform Committee concerns the Secretary Lords amendments 13 and 14 agreed to. of State’s power to amend Ofcom’s universal postal service order in a special administration scenario. Although the Committee accepted the need for that power and Clause 27 recognised that it would apply only in very limited circumstances, it recommended that the power be subject GENERAL AUTHORISATION TO PROVIDE POSTAL SERVICEs to the negative procedure. Lords amendment 27 will give effect to that recommendation. Mr Davey: I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 24 simply clarifies that directions Lords amendment 15. made by the Secretary of State under part 3 must be in writing, and may be varied or revoked by a further Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this direction. Lords amendment 26 will remove a reference it will be convenient to take Lords amendments 16 to 22 to that procedure in clause 60 as it will be superseded by and 25. Lords amendment 24. Finally, Lords amendment 28 is a consequence of Mr Davey: As has been made clear at every possible this year’s referendum on the powers of the Welsh opportunity, the Government are absolutely committed Assembly. The Bill sought to make a consequential to the long-term security of the universal postal service. amendment to schedule 5 to the Government of Wales As the Royal Mail is the provider of that universal Act 2006. However, the yes vote in the referendum service, and the only possible provider of it for the resulted in that schedule ceasing to have effect. Lords foreseeable future, its viability is clearly of huge importance amendment 28 simply deletes what is now a redundant to achieving that goal. The Lords amendments to the reference in the Bill. regulatory provisions of the Bill respond to points raised in both Houses and by Members of all parties, As I said, the amendments are technical and perhaps and will help to ensure that the Bill meets our primary not of the most interest to the House. However, I hope objective of securing the universal service. hon. Members agree that they represent small but important improvements to the Bill and feel able to support them. Lords amendment 17, on Ofcom’s duties, will ensure that Royal Mail has the opportunity to earn a reasonable Nia Griffith: This is a group of technical amendments. commercial rate of return on all expenditure incurred in We all want legislation to be as clear, precise and providing the universal postal service, and on any regulated effective as possible. We will therefore support them. access services in so far as they make use of the universal postal service network. Although it is obviously not Lords amendments 12 to 14 will form an important within the gift of the regulator to determine precisely part of the Bill. The transfer of the Royal Mail pension what returns Royal Mail can make—that should depend plan and the fact that the Government will take on the market and the company’s performance—it is responsibility for it are aspects of the Bill with which all essential that the regulatory framework should provide parties agree. Any amendments that offer further clarity incentives for Royal Mail to be successful and make the and security in respect of the handling of workers’ necessary efficiency improvements, and allow for good hard-earned pensions are to be welcomed. We had a performance to be rewarded without regulation eroding thorough discussion of the pensions issues in Committee, the effect of increased efficiency. The amendment will so I simply reiterate our support for those amendments. ensure just that. I also confirm our support for Lords amendments 24 and 26. Lords amendments 16 and 18 further amend Ofcom’s duties, to specify that the requirement for efficiency Lords amendments 23 and 27 give effect to should apply recommendations of the House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Lords “before the end of a reasonable period”, amendment 27 strengthens parliamentary scrutiny by to give Royal Mail time to continue its vital modernisation. introducing the negative resolution procedure into the That is an important change. Clearly, the delivery of the Secretary of State’s power to amend the universal service universal postal service needs to become more efficient, order in a special administration scenario. As it strengthens and neither those amendments nor the ones to which I the opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny, we shall have already spoken will undermine that. However, we support it. do think that it is important to give Royal Mail a Lords amendment 28 is purely technical and has been reasonable period of time in which to modernise and made to reflect the new situation with regard to Wales, achieve efficiency. following the result of the referendum held on 3 March As part of that ongoing modernisation, Royal Mail in which the people of Wales voted yes to additional powers will need to invest in new machinery and technology. for the Welsh Assembly Government. We campaigned Before making long-term investments, boards and for and welcomed that referendum result, as it will help shareholders look for certainty. Lords amendment 22 to streamline procedures, cut out wasteful duplication will give Royal Mail certainty that for a significant and ensure that the Assembly has the appropriate legislative length of time—10 years—it will be able to remain the powers in the areas for which it already has spending universal service provider throughout the whole of the responsibility. We accept the clear need for the amendment United Kingdom. As previously drafted, the Bill could and will support it. have given rise to doubts about the certainty of Royal Mail’s designation as the universal service provider in Mr Davey: I thank the hon. Lady for welcoming the the short to medium term, as it effectively provided for amendments, and I hope that the rest of the House will a three-year moratorium period before there could be a support them. procurement determination. Although it was not the 341 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 342

[Mr Davey] reasonable needs of users. In determining those, Ofcom will conduct thorough research and analysis, and consult Government’s intention, the risk of Royal Mail losing users to take their views into account. Importantly—this part or all of its designation after three years via a was often misunderstood in our previous debates—Ofcom procurement determination could clearly have discouraged will also be bound by its broader duties, as set out in the the company from making otherwise rational and important Communications Act 2003, to have regard, among other long-term investments in its infrastructure. That is why things, to the needs of persons with disabilities, the Lords amendment 22 gives Royal Mail a 10-year period elderly, those on low incomes and those living in rural of certainty. areas. However, although we need Royal Mail to have that I am confident that that will mean that Ofcom’s certainty, we also need to keep up the pressure on it to requirements on the distribution of access points across press ahead with modernisation. We must recognise the country will ensure that all users can continue to that the threat of a compensation fund means increased post their letters, packets and parcels in a convenient uncertainty for its competitors. It is therefore not way. However, although we are clear that the reasonable unreasonable to seek to delay the possible introduction needs of users is the right test, it is conceivable that in of a compensation fund until necessary modernisation some cases the Government will wish to apply different has taken place. considerations. For example, the Government may have We have looked again at the moratorium period wider public policy objectives to consider, perhaps in before Ofcom can initiate an unfair burden review and relation to rural policy or small business support. concluded that a period of five years is appropriate. Such broader public policy goals are rightly a matter Lords amendment 21 gives effect to that. for the Government and not for an independent sector During the passage of the Bill, many hon. Members regulator. Therefore, amendment 19 allows the Secretary have raised concerns about the prospect of other operators of State to step in and require Ofcom to ensure sufficient cherry-picking profitable elements of Royal Mail’s delivery access points throughout the United Kingdom to meet business and, as a result, putting the security of the the interests of the public. That is not a power that we universal service at risk. The Government have reflected would ever expect to use—its inclusion simply serves as on those concerns, and during the Bill’s passage through a fail-safe to address the legitimate, albeit unlikely, the other place engaged in constructive discussion with concerns expressed by hon. Members on both sides of Opposition Front Benchers there, as well as with Royal the House and by colleagues in the other place. Mail and the Communication Workers Union. I hope that this package of regulatory amendments Although we are confident that Ofcom has the necessary demonstrates that we have listened to the concerns of tools to ensure fair and effective competition in the hon. Members and those in the other place. The market, it is our belief that on occasion it will need to amendments constitute a real strengthening of protection build in greater time to inform its use of those tools. for the universal service—an objective that I believe all Lords amendments 15, 20 and 25 address that by giving hon. Members share—and as such, I hope they are Ofcom the power to require operators to pre-notify warmly welcomed. them of the planned commencement or expansion of a letters business on a specified scale. We have left the 3pm precise scale for later definition—it will depend on the Nia Griffith: Lords amendment 17 requires that, when market at the time—but our clear intention is that that having regard to the requirement for a postal service to should apply only to a significant letter delivery operation be financially viable, Ofcom should include the need for that could have a damaging impact on the provision of a reasonable commercial rate of return for the universal the universal service. That notification mechanism will postal service. We argued this very determinedly in ensure that Ofcom has the necessary time to evaluate Committee. The provision of the universal postal service the potential impact on the universal service of such an constitutes a considerable financial burden and we have operation before the operation has commenced and, seen how, in recent times, the opening up of opportunities critically, before any potential damage has been done to for competitors to come in and cherry-pick some invitingly the security of the universal service. profitable parts of the postal delivery service, leaving I stress that the notification condition is aimed at the Royal Mail to provide the universal postal service, avoiding damaging cherry-picking that would put in has led to some considerable controversy about the jeopardy the long-term security of the universal service. price charged for the final mile. Royal Mail feels that the As such, our clear view is that the condition should price set by Postcomm is too low, while the competitor apply only to those operators seeking to commence or providers would quite naturally always want the price expand a significant letter delivery service, but it will kept as low as possible. not impose any additional burden on, for example, We welcome the fact that—as is made clear elsewhere current access competitors, courier services or parcel in the Bill—the Royal Mail will continue to be the delivery businesses. provider for 10 years after privatisation, not just three. Finally, Lords amendment 19 addresses concerns, This will provide some much needed stability for the which were again raised in both Houses, about access to service and make it worth the Royal Mail investing postal services. The central concern of hon. Members sufficiently in the necessary infrastructure. But crucial who have raised this issue is how we can ensure that to the success and stability of the service is the need for people right across the country and from all walks of the postal service to be financially viable. It would be life continue to have access to the high standard of immensely disruptive and damaging if a privatised Royal postal service on which they depend. The Bill already Mail got into difficulties and had to be bailed out. That specifies that Ofcom’s duties include ensuring that there is one reason it is essential that the regulator, Ofcom, is provision of sufficient access points to meet the should understand the need for a reasonable commercial 343 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 344 rate of return for the universal postal service and make interests of the public? Would it be the same number as its judgements and interventions accordingly. This is now, or are we likely to see post boxes removed or common sense, so we shall support this amendment. boarded up? I say that as someone who has only recently Lords amendments 16 and 18 provide clarity that the had to fight for Royal Mail to restore a post box at requirement for efficiency would apply after a reasonable Brynteg in my constituency, and I can well envisage that amount of time and provide a definition of that reasonable a profit-hungry privatised Royal Mail would look to period as a period beginning on the day that the provisions reduce the number of post boxes in order to cut down of the Bill come into force and which Ofcom considers on collection costs. That could mean people losing their to be reasonable. These amendments also help to improve local post box and no longer having one within walking the Bill and we shall support them. distance of their homes. We welcome the amendment because it could improve the chances of a better service Lords amendment 19 is an extremely important to the public, but we would have liked a much stronger amendment. In Committee, we tried very hard to persuade amendment to give a stronger guarantee of a comprehensive the Government to amend the Bill to ensure that the network of access points. post office network was used to provide the network of access points, and we were very disappointed that the We welcome Lords amendment 20 and the consequential Minister chose to turn down the opportunity to show amendments 15 and 25, because they enable Ofcom to any real commitment to the post office network and impose a notification condition on any person providing, refused to accept our amendment on using the post or intending to provide, a service within the scope of the office network to provide the access points to the postal universal postal service. Again, this is important for the service. rational management of the universal postal service, and we should support it. Lords amendment 21 makes This Lords amendment does not safeguard the post a significant change to Ofcom’s review of the costs of office network. It does, however, provide some protection the universal service obligation. Whereas previously the for the public, and some reassurance that the Secretary Bill specified that Ofcom would have to wait three years of State may direct Ofcom to take action to ensure that from when the Bill came into force before it could carry sufficient access points are provided to meet the interests out a review of the costs of the universal service obligation, of the public. It is not, however, anything like as specific the amendment increases the period to five years, unless or forceful as we would have liked. It does not specify, the Secretary of State intervenes and directs Ofcom to as legislation in some other countries does, the number carry out a review. We have not sought amendment 21. of access points or their geographical distribution. This Will the Minister clarify under what circumstances the is done elsewhere either by specifying a precise number Secretary of State might intervene before the five-year of outlets, as in the German model, or by insisting on period is up? specific access criteria, as in the Australian model. On Lords amendment 22, we have consistently pointed This amendment is much more subjective and leaves out that the universal service provider incurs very large it as a matter of opinion for the Secretary of State to costs and needs to have as much certainty as possible decide what is meant by sufficient access points to meet about its future obligations so that it can plan long term the interests of the public. Will the Minister clarify the and make the necessary investment in the latest technology. thinking behind this, and specify the number of access We therefore welcome the amendment, which means points? We understand that the access criteria, as laid that Royal Mail will continue to be the universal service down in the document “Securing the post office network provider for the next 10 years, rather than just the next in a digital age”, could be met by a network of some three years. This is a significant improvement. We know 7,000 or 8,000 post offices. When we were in government that significant modernisation has taken place within we put in money to keep open a network of 11,900 post Royal Mail over the past few years. In the evidence offices, and the present Government are doing likewise. sessions, the chief executive, Moya Greene, expressed What number of access points is the Secretary of State her pride and delight in the world-class facilities that likely to designate as sufficient to meet the interests of Royal Mail has in some of its depots, but she also the public? Will it be as many as the current network of pointed out that there are still areas awaiting modernisation. post offices, or will it be fewer? If it is the latter, some If Royal Mail is to continue to invest, the certainty of post offices could cease to be access points for postal knowing that it will remain the provider of the universal services and not only would they lose the third of their service for the next 10 years will provide a much better income that comes from the Royal Mail work that they basis for doing so than a mere three years. This is very do but they would stand to lose a lot more income, as important to create the necessary stability and justify they would lose footfall. the necessary investment. We therefore welcome the Access points would not, of course, have to be post amendment. offices. We have already seen some very adverse public reaction when post offices have been moved into the Lorely Burt: This final string of amendments is another upstairs of some high street chains, making them difficult testimony to how the Government have listened to to find and time-consuming to access. Will the Minister colleagues on both sides of the House. I greatly welcome clarify the number of access points he envisages meeting a number of the amendments, particularly those that the interests of the public, and whether the Secretary of make the duties of Ofcom stronger than under Postcomm. State might also have criteria for the accessibility of I want to ask the Minister about amendment 19, which access points so that we do not end up with access specifies that the Secretary of State can override the points that are hard to access? regulator on access points. We need to be wary about Access points does not just mean counter services, setting up an independent body but saying, “Never but can also include post boxes. Will the Minister give mind, the Secretary of State can override it”. We want us any indication of what number of post boxes the to be sure that that could be done only to the benefit of Secretary of State would consider sufficient to meet the the consumer. Bringing politics into the matter concerns 345 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 346

[Lorely Burt] Mail had no plan in place even to allow local businesses or my constituents to do so, which is a sign of poor me a little, so will my hon. Friend confirm that he planning by Royal Mail management. I would be grateful cannot envisage any circumstances in which the Secretary if the Minister outlined what discussions he has had of State could intervene, perhaps to specify that we do with the Royal Mail about that lack of strategic or, not need as many access points as now? some might argue, tactical thinking, which should be I particularly welcome amendment 17. Royal Mail happening at the local and regional levels. has found it difficult to make a profit given the restraints The backlog was such that many of my constituents under which it has had to work. The previous situation did not receive the parcels and cards that friends and was impossible, so I am delighted with the amendment. relatives had sent them until the middle of January, We had to address the appalling decline in profitability, which is clearly a most unsatisfactory circumstance. To which was due to the ceiling imposed by the previous be fair, after I met the Royal Mail in the build-up to the Government, who were unwise in their overzealous new year, it took a number of steps, including putting interpretation of the European legislation. If we can do on Sunday deliveries, drafting in additional staff from it now, why could we not have created a more competitive other sorting offices and putting on extra deliveries. environment for Royal Mail in the past? No one can But, with the best will in the world, I hope that the make a profit with one hand tied behind their back. I Minister will agree that it should not have been necessary particularly welcome Lords amendment 22, which for us to reach a state of chaos before Royal Mail took guarantees that Royal Mail will remain a USP for proactive steps to tackle the problem. 10 years, thereby removing any lurking uncertainty, which is particularly helpful. 3.15 pm Finally, Lords amendments 20, 15 and 25 require I would be grateful if the Minister outlined the specific pre-notification to Ofcom of the planned commencement issues he has raised with Royal Mail relating to the or expansion of a letters business on a specified scale. modernisation of its procedures. Has he discussed how That will allow Ofcom to evaluate the potential impact its policies might become more robust? Has it given him beforehand, not after the stable door is opened and the any indication of whether it has learned the lessons, not horse has bolted. I wonder whether the Minister could only from Fife but from across Scotland, in time for say a little more about the circumstances in which he next winter? I fear that we might otherwise face a rather would envisage the provisions applying. Opposition challenging set of conditions. Members have rightly raised the spectre of lots of other organisations wanting to come in and expand their Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I should like to echo letter delivery services, so how will the provisions work the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for to ensure that Royal Mail’s commercial interests remain Solihull (Lorely Burt). This is a listening Government viable? who are seeking to improve legislation at all stages and in every way, and that is evident from the Lords amendments Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): before us today. I would like to press the Minister on Lords amendments I should like to speak particularly to Lords 16 to 19, to clause 28. He has rightly spoken of the need amendments 17, 20 and 22. They represent a significant for the Royal Mail to continue to modernise, and I hope shift in the terms offered to Royal Mail, to the advantage to give a simple example of why this is so important. of the Royal Mail group. In Committee and again The House will recall the severe snow that affected today, we have heard justified praise for the present large parts of Scotland last winter, including West Fife management of the group. Moya Greene is an exceptional in my constituency. Fife was particularly badly hit leader of the group and she is bringing her depth of because of the incompetence of Fife council, which experience to the provision of Royal Mail services in the failed to clear the roads and keep traffic moving. That United Kingdom. It was not always thus, however. The had a huge knock-on effect for the Royal Mail. If group has at times had a poverty of good management. residents are struck in villages or large parts of Dunfermline Indeed, its management has at times been weak. Many and cannot get out, it would quite obviously be times during our discussions of the Bill, we have recognised unreasonable to expect the Royal Mail to be able to that the people who best knew how to run the Royal deliver a regular service, because for genuine health and Mail group were the postal workers themselves and safety reasons it is vital that posties are not exposed to their representatives in the Communication Workers unnecessary risk. However, the Royal Mail failed to Union. The amendments demonstrate our faith that the provide a robust contingency programme to deal with management and the unions will use the new advantages the huge backlog that quickly built up. to the best effect and in the long-term interest of the It will probably not surprise the House to know that people who use Royal Mail services. mid-December is a particularly busy time for the Royal We are extending for 10 years Royal Mail’s ability to Mail, as there is a substantial increase in the volume of be the sole universal service provider. As hon. Members packages and cards. Unfortunately, business continues on both sides of the House have pointed out, that is a in the build-up to Christmas for many of my constituents. sensible and welcome change, because it will enable I was approached by a number of small businesses and difficult investment decisions to be made with more local law firms that were waiting desperately for important certainty about market conditions. We are also providing documents—in some cases legal documents—and that that, after five years, the other operators will be able to were simply unable to get them delivered by the Royal receive a charge for any inefficiencies or burdens resulting Mail. Many of my constituents showed some initiative from universal service provisions not being made. I and went to the Dunfermline sorting office to see whether hope that the Minister will be able to assure me that they could simply collect their post. However, the Royal sufficient incentives will exist for the management of 347 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 348 the Royal Mail group to continue to make the improvements in Committee. That position will have to be explained that he rightly identifies as necessary over the next five by the business managers—not by me, as it has never years. Perhaps he will also be able to update the House been explained to me. and give us assurances on progress with the unions in I wish to focus on amendments 21 and 22. Let me relation to these advantages. provide some background. The 10-year period in These measures demonstrate that we are placing amendment 22 for the universal service provider—currently, additional trust in responsible management and responsible the Royal Mail—is welcome, but the phrasing of the unions in our Royal Mail group. We are making significant provision amounts to a get-out clause. Lords amendment 22, changes in the Bill, to the benefit of the people who as it says in the explanatory notes, work for the postal service. They will move it forward, “would prevent Ofcom from making a procurement determination and they represent a welcome step. However, we shall within 10 years from the day that Part 3 of the Bill comes into require the recent excellence in the provision of services force, unless the universal service provider agrees.” to continue. We do not want to have to look back in five Thus we have a privatised Royal Mail with a universal years’ time and say, “We gave you those chances, but service obligation; it has all the burdens, which are not you didn’t take the necessary steps to modernise. Now going to be shared properly with others in the business. we are going to have to burden other people because Others have already cherry-picked much of the provision— you didn’t take up all the advantages that we provided.” TNT, to name just one, and many others come through These are good amendments, and I fully support them. our door, delivered in the last mailbag by Royal Mail employees. As far as I can see, none of the burden is Michael Connarty: The hon. Member for Bedford going to be shared with Royal Mail for providing that (Richard Fuller) referred to the trade unions in a way universal service; it all falls on the universal service that sounded as though he did not accept the hard work provider. they have done over the past decade and a half to try By using deductive logic, people can see that the to get a good relationship with the management. privatisation of the universal service provider, the Royal The amendments were driven by the work of the Mail, should not be continued. We would like Ofcom to Communication Workers Union, working alongside the look at splitting up the obligation and sharing some of Labour Lords and reasonable people on the Cross the burden by allowing some other regional post office Benches, and they have now been taken up by the or mail provider to come in and take on some of it. It is Government. Only one of the amendments before us possible that in a privatised scenario, the interests of the today did not come through the debates in the Lords as Royal Mail—at the moment, the public service provider— a result of the work with the CWU. The unions have will not be the same. As I say, there is a get-out clause. always been responsible. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, over the decade in which I have been the secretary Clause 33(5) will permit the Secretary of State to of the CWU parliamentary liaison group, the management amend the minimum requirements of the universal have been horrendous in the running of Royal Mail and service postal provision in clause 30—a mail service for the Post Office. six days a week, provided at an affordable and uniform price throughout the UK. Under clause 33(7), an affirmative resolution is required before the Secretary of State can Richard Fuller: I appreciate the opportunity to reassure make amendments, but a coalition Government with a the hon. Gentleman that he must have misheard what I majority can easily achieve that. This is predicated on said. I said precisely what he has just said—that the good will, in a sense. On a more negative view, we see people who have provided leadership in the Royal Mail these provisions as being nothing but wallpaper for group and who have provided a consistency of belief in public consumption, which will not help us to face up to the ethos of public service provision have been the the financial problems of a privatised Royal Mail operating workers themselves, and that they have been let down in a privatised environment. In that context, it might by the management over a number of years. I said not be sustainable. that the CWU, with the business agreement it put in place, showed that it had learned that it needed to be I am concerned when the amendments can be interpreted constructive and positive, and that it provided great in two different ways. I have not had the benefit of leadership. My hope was that, with Moya Greene in interrogating the Minister in Committee, of hearing the place, we have a solid partnership of management, Committee debates or of participating in the debates in workers and the unions that can move forward. The the House of Lords that led to these amendments being hon. Gentleman was not always present in Committee; brought forward. if he had been, he would have heard more clearly that I Lords amendment 21 increases the three-year period am strong supporter of the CWU. I am glad for the in clause 42—which provides for Ofcom to review the opportunity to clarify that. extent to which the universal service provider is bearing a financial burden—to five years. If that extension is Michael Connarty: I am grateful, and I am glad that such a good thing, why is this a Government amendment? we have a solid platform on which to continue the Why was it not tabled, here or in the House of Lords, debate. on behalf of the work force, via the Communication It is remarkable that not just myself, but not a single Workers Union? What is the reason for the extension? Labour member of the CWU parliamentary liaison The provision of a universal service is one of the group, which worked together with the CWU and the great burdens on Royal Mail. Delivering post in parts Post Office, was asked to participate in the Committee of the constituency of the hon. Member for Angus considering this Bill. I might ask the Minister some (Mr Weir) or a constituency in Somerset is much more detailed questions that he could have answered before if burdensome than delivering it within the square mile of I had been granted access to his knowledge and aspirations the City of London. The last Government, which allowed 349 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 350

[Michael Connarty] to change the arrangement either by cutting the number of deliveries or pick-ups or by altering the price of the commercialisation, were immediately accused of allowing delivery.” some companies to cherry-pick the deliveries. That is why TNT made so much money: it is much more interested in cities and large conurbations than in the 3.30 pm universal service obligation, which covers all the sparse All those options are available under these amendments. and difficult parts of the country. The capital and work It may not be the intention. If it is the intention, the force required by the universal service provider cannot Minister and those who drafted the amendments are be utilised at its optimum level because of the unevenness being Machiavellian in their approach to the Royal of the urban density and geography of the country. Mail. I do not think they are Machiavellian, however. Some areas are more profitable than others, but the Frankly, I do not believe they are sufficiently smart; I burden of delivery must still be carried. think they are just blundering along, putting together groups of clauses and amendments that will have Clause 43 provides for the regulator to consider unintended consequences. mechanisms for a burden-sharing arrangement if Ofcom finds that such a burden exists. I welcome that proposal. I am worried because the Bill, with these amendments, Ofcom could take three possible courses. It could review is deeply flawed. There are even flaws in the amendments the minimum requirements of the universal service that we are welcoming now. We are providing for 10-year under clause 33, which means downgrading the service. terms, but it is still possible to get out of that by going The Minister said earlier that that was not one of the to Ofcom and saying, “We can’t make it. We can’t cut Government’s aims. There could be a industry or users’ the mustard here. We can’t make a profit. Either we give levy, which has been hotly resisted by the privatised up as a universal service provider and sell out the lot, or cherry-picking companies which have made a killing you let us break up the franchise.” I think that is what from the commercialisation of Royal Mail delivery in will happen. I have serious reservations, therefore. the past decade. There could be a “procurement Also, why does the Minister want to extend the time determination”, allowing the universal service provider’s period for Ofcom to be able to review the situation from obligation to be changed under clause 43. No one three years to five years, under amendment 21? Is it to knows what course Ofcom will choose, but we do know protect those who at present do not want to pay a levy, that if there is to be any logic and justice in a levy across or to stop the burden sharing being properly looked at, the industry to help with universal service provision, the or is it because he wants to save the minimum requirements Lords amendment will not allow it to happen for five of the service order? We are not sure. Will he address years. those concerns to give me the confidence so that I do This is a negative amendment. It leaves Royal Mail not choose to press amendment 21 to a Division? with a burden that it cannot shift, cannot share with others, and cannot ask Ofcom to share with others for Mr Davey: I am grateful to the hon. Member for five rather than three years. Perhaps the Government Llanelli (Nia Griffith) for her general welcome for many want that to happen. If that is what they are up to, let of our amendments. I began my remarks by saying that them tell us. I know that the extension to five years has a degree of consensus had emerged in the other place. been welcomed by those who are currently making a The hon. Lady spent most of her time talking about nice killing by cherry-picking certain kinds of mail, but access points and amendment 19. We must be clear a real problem will face whoever bears the universal about what an access point is. It comes from the directive; service obligation under privatisation. No subsidies will the definition of an access point and the requirement to be offered; the provider will have to stand on its own provide them flows from the universal postal service two feet and make a profit. It will have to seek a change. directive, and we then define it in this Bill. It would be The extension to 10 years proposed in Lords wrong for us to state that it could only ever be post amendment 22 is all right as long as the procurement offices, and to enshrine that in the Bill, because, for trigger is not used by the universal service provider, but instance, some rural communities might need access I think that the two proposals are heading in the same points in a form that the post office network is unable to direction. Following privatisation, there will be pressure provide. I hope that the hon. Lady recognises that it is on the universal service provider—currently Royal Mail—to therefore important to have some flexibility. offload some of its universal service obligation. It could The hon. Lady was concerned about some post offices do that by means of a change in the number of deliveries. not being accessible, and gave the example that some of There have already been some changes: there is now them might be upstairs. In addressing the access points only one delivery per day, and letters are not collected issue, Ofcom will be required to look at the needs of from mail boxes between lunchtime on Saturday and users, and its obligations, under the Communications 5 pm on Monday. All those adjustments were made Act 2003, are much stronger than those of Postcomm, under the pressure of commercialisation, but there will and they include taking account of the needs of disabled be other pressures. people. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Lady will understand What worries me particularly is the possibility that that the accessibility requirements have been improved. regions to which a provider does not want to deliver will On access points more generally, the hon. Lady did not be offloaded on to another provider. That provider will give the Government credit for the fact that in the—signed then go to the Secretary of State or Ofcom and say, “We and legally binding—agreement we have reached with cannot make a profit on this.” My hon. Friend the Post Office Ltd providing the £1.34 billion, Post Office Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Ltd has to secure a network of at least 11,500 post Docherty) was asking about this point earlier. The offices. That is the clearest and strongest way to ensure provider will say, “It is not viable, so we want to be able that the network is delivered. 351 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 352

The hon. Lady had some concerns about amendment 21, Mail’s operations are, of course, a matter for Royal and asked why the Secretary of State would intervene Mail, it is worth pointing out that in areas of Scotland, before the five years was up. It is sensible to maintain including his constituency, the private companies had the Secretary of State’s ability to intervene and direct much greater problems in delivering. Royal Mail acted Ofcom to conduct an unfair burden review. That measure strongly, made the investment and was able to deliver. adds some flexibility to the Bill. If all the evidence As the universal service provider, it showed its strength. pointed towards there being a need for an unfair burden review, a process to allow a review to be conducted Mr Davidson: Does the Minister believe that that would clearly be beneficial. We wanted that extra flexibility additional expenditure—that enormous cross-subsidy in the Bill. to the highlands and other isolated areas of Scotland— would have happened in an independent Scotland? Nia Griffith: I am not against the idea of Ministers intervening, because it is very important to have that Mr Davey: Mr Deputy Speaker, I would love to opportunity for a review. I was just wondering whether speculate on such a matter, but Madam Deputy Speaker there were any particular circumstances in which the has made it very clear that she would not wish us to do Secretary of State might be proactive, because of the so. All I can suggest to the hon. Gentleman is that he damage that could be caused if the review was left for might wish to debate that later with the hon. Member five years rather than three. I am all for the Secretary of for Angus (Mr Weir) in order to get an answer to his State having that additional power, but are there any question. He should not believe everything he hears. circumstances that would precipitate an instant review? Thomas Docherty: Let me take the Minister back to Mr Davey: We need to have flexibility in the legislation the point about some of the other providers, such as to ensure that if the circumstances are so bad for Royal City Link, which he is absolutely right to say did not Mail because technology is having a worse effect than provide any service at all. That affected quite a lot of we had expected on its letter flows, we can still provide packages; for example, Amazon uses a non-Royal Mail the universal service. That is what this Bill is about. This provider. Will he give a cast-iron guarantee that if one extra flexibility ensures that if an unforeseen circumstance of those companies tried to become the USP, it would arises requiring an unfair burden review before the five be expected to make the same provision as Royal Mail years is up, that flexibility is in place. I am glad that the does, and that we would not get the kind of cowboy hon. Lady welcomes that. operations that handle some deliveries now? I was grateful for the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), who Mr Davey: That is the whole point of the Bill’s acknowledged that these amendments show that the ensuring that the universal provision is there for us. It Government have listened. She was concerned that will be maintained, because the regulator, Ofcom, will amendment 19 would give the Secretary of State an ensure that the universal service provider meets the override. May I assure her that we think it very unlikely minimum requirements, including on performance. If a that the power would be used? We need to make it clear company took over the management of Royal Mail and that the first step is for Ofcom to assess the needs of became the USP, it would be subject to that very tough users, and it will consult the public. We would not regulatory regime. expect to use the power, and it is highly unlikely that we My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard would interpret the “interests of the public” as being Fuller) rightly praised the management of Royal Mail, lower than the “needs of the public”. The words in the led by the chairman Donald Brydon and the chief amendment should reassure her. The amendment is executive Moya Greene, who have made a real difference intended as a broader test to capture elements that the in their time at the helm; the Government have huge “needs of the public” do not, and that Ofcom is not confidence in them. My hon. Friend asked what the allowed to consider. I hope that she will be reassured incentives for management were. Having met the chairman by that. and chief executive and having attended a board meeting My hon. Friend also asked about the notification recently, I assure him that its management is really scheme. I assure her that it is designed to enable Ofcom seized of the need to modernise Royal Mail. Look at to act to prevent harmful cherry-picking, which would the way in which we have set the regime up: the Bill damage the universal service. Again, this is another makes it clear that Ofcom must, when regulating, have tightening up of part 3 and the regulations, to ensure regard to the need for the USP to become, and to that we can deliver the universal service through this remain, efficient, so there will be a regulatory framework Bill. to bear down on management—but there also are other The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife incentives for management. He was right to make that (Thomas Docherty) talked about what happened in his point. constituency following the bad weather just before My hon. Friend also asked about the role of the Christmas, and asked me whether I talked to Royal unions. Royal Mail’s management and I have engaged Mail about them. Of course I regularly meet the very constructively with the Communication Workers management of Royal Mail, and they are committed to Union, and I have already welcomed its very strong providing an excellent service. I think we all accept that support for the amendments we are discussing today, the conditions last winter were exceptional and did which it recognises as strengthening the protection of create lots of problems. Royal Mail took exceptional the universal service that its members provide. There measures to try to deal with them, including investing are, however, some difficulties. I was disappointed by £20 million of extra resources to ensure that deliveries the CWU’s decision to ballot for strikes in London could be maintained. Although the details of Royal about modernisation and I hope that the ongoing talks 353 Postal Services Bill9 JUNE 2011 Postal Services Bill 354

[Mr Davey] length of time, because we need to put pressure on Royal Mail management—I think that they willingly will prevent a strike from going ahead, as industrial accept that—to drive forward modernisation, because action would only damage the very universal service that is the only way in which the company will survive in that we are all acting to protect. the context of a universal service provider, and we will The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk deliver the universal service. (Michael Connarty) went very wide in his remarks on I put on record my thanks to the hon. Member for the regulation. I know that he is secretary of the CWU Llanelli for her sterling work in scrutinising the Bill, parliamentary liaison group, and I wish that he had both as a member of the Public Bill Committee and in been on the Bill Committee, as that would have spiced the Chamber. I also thank her former Front-Bench things up. We had a great time on the Committee. I colleague, the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire remember fondly the days of Red Bull amendments, (Gordon Banks), who brought a great deal of wisdom Gordian knot amendments and clause 3 amendments to the Opposition Front-Bench team, which I am sure it and all the rest that we heard from the Labour party. No will be sad to lose. I welcome the hon. Member for doubt we would also have had the Linlithgow and East Streatham (Mr Umunna), although he is not in the Falkirk amendment if the hon. Gentleman had been on Chamber, to his new role. I also thank all other members the Committee. He is particularly concerned about Lords of the Public Bill Committee, especially the hon. Member amendment 22, on which he spent a lot of time, about for Angus, who was with us when he was able to beat the procurement determination. As I said in my opening the weather. remarks, that change has been welcomed by Royal Mail I am sure that all Members of this House and the and the CWU because it provides greater certainty. I other place would wish to join me in thanking Richard also said that people had interpreted the option of Hooper, whose two excellent and comprehensive reports procurement decision, if there were a decision that the formed the backdrop to the Bill. He has been incredibly USO represented an unfair burden on the USP, in ways generous with his time, and the Bill would not be as that we had not expected. We believe it is a useful tool in strong without his contribution. the regulator’s armoury to make sure that the universal service will be provided throughout the country. It is It is worth pausing for a moment to reflect on what a not an attack on the USP, as some people had expected. historic occasion this is. For more than 20 years successive The measure is designed to ensure that the legislation is Governments have grappled with this problem, ranging future-proofed and to make sure that the regulator has from the work in the mid-90s by Lord Heseltine to the all the necessary tools at its disposal. more recent attempt at legislation led by Lord Mandelson, right through to the present day. If Royal Mail’s problems Let me bring my remarks to a close— were stark 20 years ago they are considerably worse today, because of the advent of e-mail, social networking Michael Connarty: The Minister has missed out Lords and mobile communications. I am thankful that rather amendment 21, which came from the Government side than having to face the problem with a blank sheet of and has not been discussed or pushed for by anyone paper, I have been able to draw on a large body of else. That amendment changes from three years to five previous policy thinking and evidence. the time after which the issue of levy and burden-sharing will be set aside. That has been welcomed by the people The Bill is a culmination not just of the present who are making lots of money out of cherry-picking in Government’s efforts, but of more than 20 years’ work relation to Royal Mail at the moment. by successive Governments to tackle the problems faced by Royal Mail. By enacting it, we will finally be taking 3.45 pm the action that successive Governments have recognised as necessary and, most importantly, giving Royal Mail Mr Davey: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I the best chance of a successful future. Only with a thought that I had dealt with that when I responded to successful Royal Mail can we all be confident that our the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for constituents and businesses will continue to benefit Bedford, who also raised that point, albeit from a from the universal postal service on which so many rely. slightly different perspective. We need to ensure that This is a momentous achievement in which both sides Royal Mail management have incentives to deliver. On of the House can share. reflection, I was concerned that the three-year period before which an unfair burden review could result in Lords amendment 15 agreed to. compensation was too short. Five years is the right Lords amendments 16 to 28 agreed to. 355 9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 356

Munro Report prescription are reduced rather than increased—it is not just another case of adding a few hundred more pages 3.47 pm to the “Working Together”guidance; and, most importantly, that is why the review has focused on the child rather The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education than the system. Professor Munro’s final report, “A (Tim Loughton): I beg to move, child centred-system”, is wide ranging. It looks not only That this House has considered the Munro Report and its at the problems, but at the underlying environment that implications for child protection. allows, and sometimes inadvertently encourages, such I am delighted to have the opportunity to lead the problems to occur. The review takes an holistic approach debate, as well as by the number of hon. Members who to child protection and bases its proposals on evidence wish to speak in it. I would like to set out my stall, and and experience. although I am supposed to make a winding-up speech, I The report has been widely welcomed, as I said. The am keen that we hear from Back Benchers, so I shall College of Social Work welcomed it as a “huge step keep that to a minimum. forward”. Nushra Mansuri of the British Association Today is significant for two reasons. First, this is the of Social Workers described it as only Government-led debate on child protection in “Music to the profession’s ears”. Government time that I can recall in my 14 years in the The Children’s Commissioner praised its emphasis on House. The debate is therefore long overdue and it the child’s right to protection. I am delighted that it has reflects the importance that I and my fellow Ministers been welcomed as a breath of fresh air for all those attach to child protection. It is an enormous privilege to hard-working professionals involved in child protection. lead the debate and I look forward to what I am sure will be a constructive discussion, as I know that hon. For that success, I have first and foremost to thank Members on both sides of the House hold passionate Professor Eileen Munro for her expert insight and analysis and well-informed views about the subject. and the open and collaborative approach she has taken The second significance is that this week is the first to the review over the past 12 months. I also pay tribute anniversary of the launch of the Munro review of child to the reference group that supported her so closely: protection. Hon. Members will remember that this was Melanie Adegbite, District Judge Nick Crichton, Marion the first review that was established by the Department Davis, Avril Head, Professor Corinne May-Chahal, Lucy for Education. It was launched on 10 June 2010, and Sofocleous, Dr Sheila Shribman, Daniel Defoe, Professor that underlined the fact that getting child protection Sue White, Martin Narey and the great many officials right is an enormous priority for the Government. I from the Department for Education and beyond who know we all share that as a priority, so let me pass on worked tirelessly over the past 12 months. I know that my thanks to all hon. Members, leading organisations Professor Munro has hugely valued the support, expertise in the sector, the child protection work force and the and different perspectives of all members of the reference wider public, including children and young people group. themselves, who contributed in some way to Professor The report builds on previous reforms and the work Munro’s report. Their experience, insights and expertise of eminent experts such as Lord Laming, and I pay have helped make it a well-informed and widely welcomed tribute also to the enormous contribution he has made report. in this area over so many years. This really is not about We should not forget that the vast majority of our criticising previous, well-intentioned efforts to improve children enjoy a safe and happy childhood, but even the system, but about making the time and space to now too many still do not. Some of their names are understand why those efforts did not always work as sadly familiar—Victoria Climbié, Peter Connelly and well as they were intended to and should have done, Khyra Ishaq—but many more are not. Whether we learning from that to bring about long-term, sustainable hear about a case in the media or it goes unnoticed by reform in the future. the public, there is always an individual tragedy at its Eleven years, three months and 17 days since the centre. It is those individual tragedies that have so often tragic death of Victoria Climbié I still find myself been the triggers for different reviews and inquiries on asking whether the ever more complex systems that child protection over many years. Every one of those were created have actually made children safer now reviews has resulted in calls for action, and in response than they were then. Has the enormous additional legislation has been passed, rulebooks have been expanded, amount of legislation, regulation and guidance made more procedures and processes have been introduced that much of a difference where it really matters? I fear and structures have been restructured. that the answer may be no. Has, in fact, the child However, the fundamental problems have not gone protection system in this country become rather more away.Despite the very best of intentions, our hard-working, about protecting the system than about protecting the dedicated social workers, foster carers and other front-line children whom the professionals went into their professions professionals are too often still unable to make the to protect? That is why it is now of the utmost importance difference that they want and need to make for vulnerable that we restore public confidence in child protection, children and families. Day in, day out, they are up and restore confidence in the social worker profession against a system that too often simply does not help and others—not least through those professions themselves. them to do their best for children. The Munro review report seeks to do exactly that. Its From the start we wanted the Munro review of child fundamental analysis is that the system has become too protection to be different. That is why, unlike its focused on compliance and procedures and has lost its predecessors, it was commissioned not as a knee-jerk focus on the needs and experience of children themselves. response to a specific tragedy that had hit the headlines; That interest has occurred not just since the election, that is why it is recommending that regulation and however; we started the process when, in opposition, I 357 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 358

[Tim Loughton] and a lead member for children’s services before allocating any additional functions to individuals occupying such chaired a commission on children’s social workers and roles. We know that that is an important concern, and it we produced the “No More Blame Game” report back has come up in the House recently. in 2007, with contributions from all parties, followed by The eighth recommendation is that the Government our policy paper, “Back to the Front Line”, produced work jointly with the Royal College of Paediatrics and before last year’s election. Child Health, the Royal College of General Practitioners, Professor Munro makes 15 recommendations for reform. local authorities and others to research the impact of She makes it clear—and I agree—that they need to be health reorganisation on effective partnership arrangements looked at in the round, because they are interrelated and the ability to provide effective help for children who and impact on the system as a whole. I shall go through are suffering, or likely to suffer, significant harm. I shall them briefly, and in doing so I start by noting that this is discuss that point further, but the implementation board, an excellent report with which I find little to disagree. which will put forward these reforms, is heavily weighted— The first recommendation is to revise the statutory over-weighted in fact—towards health, and it is important guidance, “Working Together to Safeguard Children”, that it should be. and the framework for the assessment of children in The ninth recommendation is that LSCBs use systems need and their families to distinguish essential rules methodology when undertaking serious case reviews from guidance that informs professional judgment, because, with accredited, skilled and independent reviewers and although we need rules, it is important that they are the have a stronger focus on disseminating learning nationally. right ones. Ofsted’s evaluation of SCRs should end, because serious The second recommendation is that the inspection case reviews need to be about learning rather than framework examines the effectiveness of the contributions about processes or the story of a case; they need to be of all local services—including health, education, police, about supporting analysis, beyond identifying what probation and the justice system—to the protection of happened, in order to explain why it happened. They children. should not be all about blaming people, because blaming individuals for errors and mistakes is unhelpful and The third recommendation is that the inspection counter-productive. Rather than having a blame culture framework examines the child’s journey from needing where people try to conceal mistakes, surely it is better to receiving help, explores how the rights, wishes, feelings for people to work together to identify errors early so and experiences of children and young people inform that they can be managed or minimised, often through and shape the provision of services, and looks at the the redesign of local systems. That is not to say that effectiveness of the help provided to children, young people should go without any repercussions when things people and their families. Too often, do we not hear have gone wrong, but simply wagging the finger of that, actually, nobody really listened to the child at the blame has clouded our judgment too much in the past. centre of a case? We need inspection to look across all The name of the report that we produced in 2007—“No the relevant agencies and to focus on the things that More Blame Game”—is as appropriate now as it was really matter: outcomes for children and young people. then. The fourth recommendation is that local authorities and their partners use a combination of nationally Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I feel collected and locally published performance information that I should apologise for interrupting the Minister, to help benchmark performance, to facilitate improvement because he is giving a very good exposition of what is in and to promote accountability.It is crucial that performance the report. However, will he deal at this point with the information is not treated as an unambiguous measure issue of Ofsted not looking at serious case reviews in of good or bad performance, as performance indicators future? I find that slightly puzzling, and I do not understand tend to be, because it is important that performance the basis for it. In my view, Ofsted’s role is not allocating data are used intelligently to drive improvement in blame but assessing whether it is an adequate case practice. review that properly describes what went on. The fifth recommendation is that the existing statutory requirement for local safeguarding children boards to Tim Loughton: The hon. Lady makes a good point. I produce and publish an annual report for the local have had reservations for some time about the way in children’s trust board are amended to require its submission which serious case reviews are produced, read and instead to the chief executive and the leader of the inspected. This area was clearly highlighted in the report, council. and the implementation group will need to do a lot The sixth recommendation is that “Working Together more work to see how we get to where we want to be. to Safeguard Children” is amended to state that, when Ofsted itself will say that evaluating serious case reviews monitoring and evaluating local arrangements, LSCBs is not the best use of its time and resources. should, taking account of local need, include an assessment In the past, we have seen questionable gradings of of the effectiveness of the help being provided to children some serious case reviews. We should be using serious and families, and the effectiveness of multi-agency training case reviews as serious learning tools. Before the baby to safeguard and promote the welfare of children and Peter case, I did not realise that serious case reviews young people. Local safeguarding children boards play were not available in their full form to every other a vital role, and I see a much enhanced future for them director of children’s services and other such relevant as the linchpin of how we get this right. people around the country so that they could read what The seventh recommendation is that local authorities had happened in a certain case in a certain authority, give due consideration to protecting the discrete roles say, “Gosh, hold on a minute—could that happen here?”, and responsibilities of a director of children’s services and be alert to the problems that had happened elsewhere 359 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 360 to see whether they needed to do things locally to much rather support the publication of a better form of ensure that they did not happen there. However, serious serious case review, which is what we need to get to. case reviews in their full form are available only to a Professor Munro made the right decision to make very small number of people. serious case reviews open and accessible subject to three There have been question marks over the consistency criteria: first, that the anonymity of the characters of the quality of serious case reviews, who is commissioned involved is maintained; secondly, that there is appropriate to carry them out, who is controlling the quality of the redaction where information would intrude on private people producing them, and, above all, who is bringing details; and, thirdly, that it will not go ahead if a case together the learning expertise and learning points to can be made that publication in full would be detrimental see whether they have generic applications for people up to the welfare of a surviving child or sibling. With those and down the country. That is not happening as a result considerations, I think it is absolutely right that we of the way in which Ofsted does it, with the very best of should all have access to those reports as a learning intentions. We need to get to a place where a serious exercise. case review is not about learning from things that went If the hon. Gentleman is saying, as others have, that wrong in a particular case but learning from things that people might be less prepared to co-operate with such went wrong in the system and applying that to the reviews, he is wrong, because it is in all our interests to system elsewhere. We also need to ensure that the people ensure that the fullest information possible is in the producing serious case reviews produce things of a public domain so that it can be assessed and the lessons sufficiently high quality. We have a lot of work to do learned. The people who will benefit most from the because the current situation is not sustainable and publication in full of serious case review overview reports serious case reviews are not producing what we need are social workers, for the very reason set out by the them to produce. hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), who is no longer here: when there is a tragic incident, it is Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the always the social workers what done it. When one reads Minister accept that we have a media who are obsessed the full details, one finds that in some cases the police with the blame game? They will attack social workers were not too clever or perhaps there were serious for not intervening soon enough, and perhaps the following shortcomings with the GP, the school or various other day attack them for wrecking families and breaking up agencies. However, it is always social workers who are family units. on the front line. It is only by seeing the full picture that one can get an understanding of what was the weak link Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely in the chain or where the co-operation between agencies right. He might have heard me say on many previous that is needed did not happen properly. I do not agree occasions that social workers, and other professionals, with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis. are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Already, a lot of learning has come from the serious Certain newspapers will carry headlines saying, “Those case reviews that have been published in full in Haringey terrible, incompetent social workers were to blame—they and on the Khyra Ishaq case in Birmingham. All serious should have intervened earlier and taken that child into case reviews published after 10 June 2010—we have not care.” Two weeks later, they are saying that those terrible, had one yet—are obliged to follow the new publication incompetent social workers are too busy snatching children process. from good, decent, middle-class families and should be ashamed of it. Social workers cannot win. To get a better system we have to restore the confidence of the Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con) rose— public in our child protection system. A key part of that is to get the media to understand more what the job of child protection is all about, and not to be so swift to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) rose— wag the finger of blame but to help in the explanation and understanding of what went wrong and look to Tim Loughton: I will give way to my hon. Friend, and want to bring about solutions jointly, because that is in then to the hon. Gentleman. all our best interests. We are not in that position yet. Things are improving, but we have a long way to go. Mrs Grant: In addition to stopping the blame, does the Minister agree that more credit should be given for Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): In the report, Professor the hideously difficult job that social workers have Munro expresses how concerned people in the profession to do? are about the Minister’s decision to make overviews of serious case reviews available, rather than simply the Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend has great expertise in executive summaries. Many people feel that that reduces family law and in this matter, and she is absolutely right. the capacity of such reviews to aid learning because it Serious case reviews should reveal not just the failures makes people more defensive. It seems that the priority and the bad things, but good practice so that we can is wrong. I will expand on my views with regard to learn from where things went right. Of course, we only Ofsted later. Does the Minister accept the concerns of ever read about the stories that go wrong in the papers. Professor Munro and others who fed into the review The media are not interested in the plane that lands about the negative consequences of making the overviews safely. People do not really understand social work. It is of serious case reviews widely known? easily caricatured, and that happens even in the soap operas that we see on our screens. Our report in 2007 Tim Loughton: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman made the not entirely flippant suggestion that there is entirely right. Actually, Professor Munro supports should be a soap based on social workers to give the the publication of full serious case reviews. She would public a better understanding of the exceedingly complicated 361 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 362

[Tim Loughton] need to ensure that the people coming into the profession— there has been a big rise in applications for social work job that they do. Day in and day out, they have to exercise degrees recently—are the right people. They need to the judgment of Solomon in deciding whether children have the necessary calibre and dedication and be there should be taken into care or left with the family. for the right reasons, and we need them to stay the course. That is part of the work that the Social Work Jim Shannon: May I remind the Minister that these Reform Board is doing and part of the reason why the are devolved matters in Wales, Northern Ireland and College of Social Work is so important. Having a chief Scotland? Learning, experience and good value have social worker, which is the 15th recommendation in the been mentioned. Does he intend to make the devolved report, will help to raise the game. It will raise the Administrations in the Assemblies in Wales and Northern profile and status of the profession, and it will give Ireland and the Parliament in Scotland aware of the people in it the feeling of being valued. Those are 15 recommendations in the Munro report? I think it is important matters. good to exchange information for the benefit of parts of the United Kingdom that might not have experienced Jim Shannon rose— what has happened in England and Wales. Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con) Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely rose— right. There has been some correspondence between Professor Munro and the devolved Assemblies, and I Tim Loughton: I will give way to the hon. Member for have been trying for some time to meet my counterpart Strangford (Jim Shannon) and then to my hon. Friend in Northern Ireland to go through such matters with the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), him or her, whoever it was on either side of the elections. but after that I would quite like to make some progress; I am keen to go and hold conversations with our otherwise nobody else will get in. counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so that they can hear what we are doing, but also so that Jim Shannon: The Minister will be glad to know that I can hear what they are doing. There are different ways the new Minister in Northern Ireland is a colleague of working in those areas. from my party, and that the new Northern Ireland Ministers have hit the ground running. I assume the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Like the situation is the same in Scotland and Wales. I am sure Minister, and I think everyone here, I welcome the that he will find an open door from the Minister in Munro report. The hon. Member for Maidstone and Northern Ireland, and probably from those elsewhere in The Weald (Mrs Grant) made a point about the status the UK. of social workers, how they appear in public and how the newspapers denigrate them. There is also the problem Tim Loughton: I am grateful. I am planning a visit to of young social workers who are just out of university Belfast next month, and if the hon. Gentleman’s colleague and newly trained and qualified having enormous difficulty would like to meet me, I would be delighted. in getting their first job, because they lack experience. Particularly in areas of inner-city Britain such as the Mr Graham Stuart: When the Select Committee on one that I represent, there is great difficulty in retaining Children, Schools and Families looked into the training social workers because of housing difficulties and because of social workers in the last Parliament, it found that of the enormous pressure and case loads that they face they could find themselves dealing with the most acute in fast-changing, high-turnover communities. It is not and difficult children’s cases having had placements in surprising that many do not stay on. I am sure the their training that did not involve children’s social work Minister is well aware that that turnover debilitates the at all. They went from having no experience at all to the entire service. front line. Has the Minister been able to do anything about that yet, and if not will he tell the House what he Tim Loughton: I agree, and we could have a debate will do about it? just about the list of matters that the hon. Gentleman mentions, most of which are covered in the Munro Tim Loughton: The Chairman of the Select Committee report. The social work profession in this country has on Education again makes a very good point and he has an awful lot of good people who do not get recognised a good deal of expertise on this matter. It is completely and some poor people who need to be weeded out. In self-defeating for newly recruited social workers to be the past, people have felt frustrated and undermined, turfed in at the deep end on tier 3 or 4 cases—serious and the media onslaught against them has been completely cases—with little experience or expertise. How demoralising demoralising. They have therefore left their jobs or is that, let alone the danger it poses for the vulnerable taken early retirement, because the pressure has been children who need to have the appropriate level of too much for them. Who would want to go into a job support? like that, after all the publicity about baby P and other A number of things need to be done and they are cases? Who would want to put themselves in the firing being done. We need to ensure that we have the right line by taking a job in which they try to do their best, calibre of people coming out of universities with degrees but blame is pointed at them because they happen to be in social work. In the first year after their qualification, a social worker, even though they might be doing a they should be given on-the-job guidance and training, good job? preferable by people with great expertise. They should We have problems at both ends. We need to retain be eased into jobs at an appropriate rate in appropriate and encourage good social workers and ensure that they circumstances. My hon. Friend raises a very important can do their job as efficiently as possible, and we also point. Virtually every week I speak to social workers 363 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 364 and visit children’s services departments—I make a it is safe for the child to stay with them. Only when point of seeing social workers on the front line—but I leaving a child with a family is deemed unsafe should we have met too many who are given challenges for which consider taking them into care. Of course, the work they are not appropriately equipped at that stage. done in the Department for Education and the Department I should like to make progress now because I am keen for Work and Pensions—the projects that deal with for other hon. Members to contribute and I have a few families with multiple problems—aims to ensure that more points to make. I got up to recommendation parents have the tools and the confidence to parent 10—I do not know why recommendation 9 brought properly. In too many families in this country, there is a about the pause that it did. Recommendation 10 is that serious problem with the standard of parenting. The the Government should place a duty on local authorities right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) made and statutory partners to secure the sufficient provision that point very clearly in the report that he produced for of local early help services for children, young people the Department for Education. and families. That is very appropriate to the early intervention work that the hon. Member for Nottingham Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Will the Minister North (Mr Allen) has been doing for the Department. give way? Recommendation 11 is that the social work reform board’s professional capabilities framework should Tim Loughton: As the hon. Gentleman is new, I shall incorporate the capabilities necessary for child and family give way one last time. social work. That is precisely the point that the Chairman of the Education Committee just raised. That framework Bill Esterson: I apologise for being late—I was on the should explicitly inform social work qualification training, Finance (No. 3) Bill Committee, which has just finished. postgraduate professional development and performance The Minister’s last point—on whether a family should appraisal. be kept together and at what stage a child is taken into Recommendation 12 is that employers and higher care—gets to the nub of child protection issues. I hope education institutions should work together so that he agrees that the threshold for making, and the timing social work students are prepared for the challenges of of, such decisions bears constant review and analysis. child protection work, including through better quality placements. Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is right. An understandable result of what happened with baby P is Recommendation 13 is that local authorities and that social workers have become more risk averse. If it is their partners should start an ongoing process to review a marginal decision, they might take the child into care and redesign the ways in which child and family social just in case, whereas if they have the time, space and work is delivered. appropriate tools and applications to deal with that Recommendation 14—I am almost there without family, it might be possible to keep it together rather taking another intervention—is that local authorities than break it up. should designate a principal child and family social I have set out Professor Munro’s recommendations worker who can report the views and experiences of the for reform. Rightly, they address every aspect of the front line to all levels of management. I have too often system. Rightly, they place the child at the centre. And seen good social workers, who have built up good rightly, they have as a basic principle the importance of reputations and who are really good hands-on, get placing trust in skilled professionals at the front line. It promoted, become managers and get stuck behind a is of course the case that there are vulnerable children desk. In that way, we lose front line expertise. Some outside the immediate child protection system, and we models, such as the one in Hackney, mean that people need to improve radically how they are supported and can gain seniority within their profession but not lose make sure that they have a voice. contact with people at the sharp end and the families that they entered the profession to help. One of the main groups of such vulnerable children, for which I have responsibility, is of course children in The 15th and final recommendation is that a chief care. With more than 64,000 children in care at the social worker should be created to advise the Government moment, we need to improve all aspects of their lives, and to bring the voice of the profession to policy. That including placement stability, education, health and was discussed recently in relation to the Health and the transition to adulthood, which are all priorities for Social Care Bill, and it was a recommendation of my Government and the wider sector. If we get Munro’s report back in 2007. proposals right, there will be benefits for all those involved in children’s social care, not just those at the Mrs Grant: Does the Minister agree that to safeguard acute end of child protection. children—in addition to that very comprehensive list—much From 1 April, we introduced a new statutory framework more needs to be done generally to strengthen families? for looked-after children, which is far more streamlined, coherent and clear about the “must dos” for local Tim Loughton: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The authorities. In particular, we have brought together the first priority—this is the most desirable outcome for care planning regulations and guidance into one volume, any family who find themselves on the child protection which should ultimately help councils put together better radar of a children’s services department, and who care plans. Less is often more. We have also strengthened become a social worker’s focus of attention—is keeping the role of independent reviewing officers so they can that family together. We should ensure that where possible, challenge poor care plans, and make sure children’s the child can be kept with that family. The phrase voices are at the heart of all reviews. We have given clear “fostering a family”, which has been used before, means steers in the revised fostering guidance about how local ensuring that parents have the parenting skills and that authorities should support foster carers and children 365 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 366

[Tim Loughton] from a system that has unintentionally driven a further wedge between children growing up and well-meaning better. The revised transition guidance makes it clear adults who come forward genuinely to offer their time that young people should leave care only when they are to volunteer and to work with young people. They have ready and have a strong support package in place. been deterred from doing so by all the regulation. I have also written to every local authority about I spoke earlier about the action we were taking to foster carers being encouraged to treat foster children in improve the lives and prospects of children in care. For their care no differently from their own children. In many of those children, adoption will be the most March, I launched the foster carers’ charter, which sets appropriate outcome, which is why in February I issued out clear principles for the support that should be new guidance with a call to arms to local authorities to available, what foster carers can expect and what foster re-energise their efforts on adoption and improve front-line children can expect of their carers. practice. This refreshed and improved statutory guidance I also launched earlier this year the Tell Tim website will be an important element in the Government’s so that carers and, in particular, children and young programme of reform aimed at supporting adoption people in care can let me—as the Minister responsible— agencies in removing barriers to adoption, reducing know directly what they think is working well, what delay and continually improving their adoption services. improvements they think need to be made or what is going wrong. I have also set up reference groups so that Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I can hear from foster children, care leavers, adopted Does my hon. Friend agree that it is essential, when children and children living in residential homes. Just adoption is the best answer, for it to take place before this week, I met my regular group of young people who the baby is two in order to give that child the greatest have left the care system, who recount their often moving chance of bonding with the new family? and relevant experiences of what is going wrong in the system. We could all learn a lot if we spent more time Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend, who has great expertise with the children who are still being failed because, particularly in dealing with young children and in the through no fault of their own, they have become part of whole area of attachment, knows how important it is the care system. that a child growing up is able from an early age to bond As hon. Members will be aware, some children and with, and develop an attachment to, parents or carers. young people—including young runaways—become victims We know from all the statistics that young children who of sexual exploitation. The report published by Barnardo’s are unable to grow up safely with their own parents in January, “Puppet on a String”, highlighted the scale benefit from adoption, where appropriate, at an early and severity of this horrific abuse. I pay tribute to stage. If we can find them an appropriate adoptive Barnardo’s work and expertise in this area and I especially placement, their chances of growing up as normally congratulate Anne Marie Carrie for hitting the ground and conventionally as if they were with their own running in her first few months at the helm of Barnardo’s. parents are greatly heightened, and they will have a The Government are determined to do everything better chance of catching up with their peers who are possible to stamp out this abuse and safeguard vulnerable lucky enough to be able to grow up with their parents, children and young people. Recent events brought to so she is absolutely right. light in the midlands through Operation Retriever and the other ongoing police investigations underline the Meg Munn: I welcome the tone that the Minister is extent of this insidious abuse. As the lead Minister in taking in this debate. On adoption, may I ask him this area, I have been urgently considering, with my equally to adopt another approach—if that is not too colleagues at the Home Office, Barnardo’s and other many adoptions? It is enormously difficult to make the national and local partners, what further action should decision to place a child for adoption. It is a lifelong be taken. The Government are now committed to working decision, and it is as important not to rush into it with partners to develop over the summer an action inappropriately as it is to make the decision to go for plan to safeguard children and young people from adoption. In reality, some of the biggest problems derive sexual exploitation. This will build on existing guidance from other matters in the process, whether decision and our developing understanding of this dreadful abuse, making in local authorities or decision making in the including through local agencies’ work around the country. courts. I urge the Minister to consider those issues as It will include work on effective prevention strategies, well. identifying those at risk of sexual exploitation, supporting victims, and taking robust action against perpetrators. Tim Loughton: The hon. Lady is right and will know Another area where excessive central prescription has that we have been doing a lot of work on adoption. I had unintended consequences, leading to risk aversion have set up a ministerial advisory group with all sorts of rather than risk management, is in vetting and barring. people, and we have issued new guidance, as I said The Government believe that children will be better earlier. We need to balance timeliness with appropriateness protected if we move away from unnecessary and top-down to ensure that where it is clear—it is not always so—that bureaucracy towards more responsible decision-making an adoptive placement is the best way forward and in at a local level. It is vital to balance the need to protect the best interests of the child, we get on with it. the vulnerable against the need to respect individuals’ There are, I have to say, some people who, usually freedoms, and not to create a system that imposes because of excessive addiction to drugs and alcohol and unnecessary burdens on individuals or organisations. a complete failure to rehabilitate, will never be able That is why the Government undertook a review of the safely to bring up children in their care. I have sat in barring and criminal records regimes in order to scale family courts and seen parents—usually single mothers— them back to common-sense levels. We need to get away have their ninth, 10th or 11th child taken into the care 367 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 368 system. If that parent’s situation has not improved, can work with the Government to develop a response to we be sure that it will ever improve? Need we take that Professor Munro’s recommendations by the summer risk, and wait years while a child is kept in an abusive recess. We are today publishing on the Department for situation? Again, those decisions require the judgment Education website the first account of the group’s of Solomon, which is why I will shortly be holding a deliberations, which started at the end of last month. round-table meeting with a group of judges from the family court, directors of children services and chairmen Mr Graham Stuart: Will my hon. Friend give way? of adoption panels to consider how we can make the adoption process better, more efficient, more robust Tim Loughton: Before I reach the final line of my and fairer; to ensure that we are making the right speech, I will give way to my hon. Friend. decisions for the too many children who are left in the system and could benefit from adoption; and to ensure Mr Stuart: I am delighted to hear that those other that we are not taking into adoption children for whom agencies are represented on the implementation group. it is not appropriate. I know that there are concerns Will my hon. Friend say a little more about the group’s there as well. remit and how we can ensure that other Departments Finally, we need to remember in our policies the integrate with it, so that it is not just the social work particular needs of vulnerable young people and the profession that looks to respond to the Munro review? fact that they have the same right to enjoy the rich experiences of growing up, the transition to adulthood Tim Loughton: The Chairman of the Select Committee and becoming valuable members of society as those on Education makes a good point. The people serving lucky enough to be part of safe, loving and stable birth on the group, whose names are published on the website, families of their own. I recognise that it is vital for the have been chosen not because they are the great and the sensible policy put forward by Professor Munro to be good—although I am sure many of them are great and backed up by proper investment. As my hon. Friends some of them are good—but because they are experienced will be aware, the Government have already announced practitioners with expertise in their particular areas. some funding to support work force development, but For example, we have on the group the chief safeguarding the real cost is the cost of failure. The current system expert from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child needs fixing. Because it needs fixing, huge amounts of Health, and a safeguarding expert from the NHS resource are wasted. One local authority that has been Confederation. We also have the Under-Secretary of working with Professor Munro and the review team as a State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford “journey authority” calculated that around 50% of its (Anne Milton), who is the Minister responsible for children’s social care workers’ time is wasted in nugatory public health, a senior headmistress of a secondary activity that does not add to the quality of service or school, a senior headmistress of a primary school, a outcomes, which is something that the authority is now senior police officer with a long record in child protection, starting to recoup—a resounding endorsement of the a real social worker from the front line, along with a need to eliminate unnecessary red tape if ever there Labour councillor from an authority with a good track were one. record in child protection, and so on. This is absolutely about getting all the right parts of Few things are more important than helping and the jigsaw together and trying to produce a system that, protecting vulnerable children and young people. In our by working together from the same song sheet and with first year in government, we have shown in the wide the same priorities and the Government’s backing, produces range of actions that we have taken—on child protection, an environment that ensures that we can keep more of children in care, adoption, fostering and dealing with our children safer. Today’s debate—even though I have the sexual exploitation of children—that we are deeply taken up rather too much of it, and more than I had committed to tackling these issues, and I am determined intended—will help to inform the implementation group’s to ensure that we make progress. Sadly, we need to response. I very much look forward to my hon. Friends’ recognise that despite Government reforms and the contributions this afternoon. hard work of professionals, tragedies will still happen. There are individuals who will harm children. We cannot eliminate that risk, but we can all work to help to reduce 4.34 pm and manage it—indeed, we all have a duty to do so. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I echo the Minister’s Society is right to expect professionals to take responsibility welcome for the work of Professor Munro, and thank and make the best judgments that they can in the best her and everyone involved in the production of the interests of children. Those judgments will not always report. I also give the Government credit for commissioning be the right ones, but they need to have been made for this important piece of work. Unlike many other reports the right reasons and on the best possible evidence. on social work, this review has not been produced in the This Government believe that we need to move immediate aftermath of a specific, much-publicised tragedy. towards a child protection system with less central It takes a holistic view of how we could protect the most prescription and interference, and in which we place vulnerable children in our society better. I also echo my greater trust and responsibility in skilled professionals hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg on the front line. Professor Munro has provided us with Munn) in welcoming the tone of the Minister’s remarks a thorough analysis of the issues. It is now for the today. We look forward to working constructively with Government, working with the sector, to help to bring the Government to take forward Professor Munro’s about sustainable reform. That is why I have established recommendations. an implementation working group, drawing in expertise Protecting our most vulnerable children is crucial, from local authority children’s services, the social work difficult and emotionally charged work. Providing the profession, education, police and the health service, to most resilient environment in which to protect children 369 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 370

[Toby Perkins] protection of, and specifically cautions against the dilution of, the role of directors of children’s services. I shall is a responsibility that has challenged and exercised return to that point later. The report also endorses the Governments of every hue for many years. I pay tribute vital role of the College of Social Work in lifting to the many hundreds of social workers who, through standards and representing the profession internally their hard work, commitment and professionalism, literally within local authorities and more broadly across all save lives. Social workers know that theirs is often a parts of our society. thankless task. When they perform at the top of their The report gives further support to local safeguarding game to improve lives for the better, safeguarding children children boards, and to the 10 principles of the assessment from harm and assisting families to get back on to the framework. We hope that, as recommended in the review, right path, they rarely get bouquets or thanks. They do the position of chief social worker will be able to play a not expect to get even a mention in the local free paper. key role in promoting the interests of children through Their own satisfaction at having made a difference has the improvement of the profile and professionalism of to suffice. But they also know that should any of the social work, and through influencing Government policy multitude of their borderline decisions be proved, with on behalf of children and the profession. the benefit of hindsight, to have been wrong, and should a tragedy then occur, they will be on the front page of We will support any efforts that will improve the every newspaper in the land and held to account for standing of social work. This includes its profile within their decisions. the media and among the wider public. It includes helping to make social work a career of choice for It is in that context that Professor Munro produced talented graduates, helping to build the self-esteem of her report, and that the previous Government took the social work profession and, within the House, many significant steps to support the social work profession recognising the debt we all owe to the profession for the and our children. It is also in that context that we all work it does on behalf of our most vulnerable children have a duty to speak up for the importance of the work and families. that social workers do, and to recognise the knife-edge nature of much of their decision making in an imperfect world. Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend will have heard my I shall also follow the Minister’s lead in thanking earlier intervention on the Minister about the status of foster carers across the country for their invaluable social workers, and I am sure he will have agreed with work. I know from personal experience how vital their me. Does he also agree with how important it is to have role is. I also welcome the measures to make the route to some sort of steer or directive for local government to adoption a quicker one. As an adoptive parent myself, take on newly qualified social workers and to provide I know the importance of children being taken on by a them with the relevant training and entry into the new family as early as possible, once they have been profession? I observe huge cuts taking place in local identified as suitable for adoption. government all over the country, as a result of which there are fewer new job opportunities for qualified This is not the first report on protecting children to social workers—and therein lies a problem 10, 15 or call for a change in society’s attitudes towards and 20 years down the line. expectations of the social work profession. Nor is it the first to call for an approach that puts children at the heart of our thinking on this subject, but it is no less Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The valuable or right to call for these things just because problem is not just 10 or 15 years down the line; it is they have been spoken of before. We recognise that in more immediate. When we know that there are social this vital area, progress is always more easily made work vacancies around the country, it seems bizarre when there a sense that all the parties involved are that newly qualified people in this sector are finding it working together constructively and positively, and there difficult to find work. Professor Munro’s recommendations is a great deal in the report that we are happy to support on practice and assessment years at the early stages will enthusiastically. It builds on many of the reforms that make a significant difference—at least, I hope they will. the previous Government embarked on, and endorses My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the considerable many of the structures that they implemented. It also anecdotal evidence that newly qualified social workers builds on the work of the social work taskforce and the are finding it difficult to find work. I hope that the social work reform board, whose contribution the review proposed measures in the report will be followed through, warmly endorses. as it is vital that people should choose to work in this area. As the Minister has said, we want to make social I shall turn now to the specific recommendations in work an attractive career option for talented people the review. In calling for a child-centred approach, it leaving university, but if those people find it hard to recognises that the needs and rights of the child, and find work as a social worker, that is going to become the child’s involvement in and ownership of a process more difficult. that might be happening at a confusing and frightening time in their lives, must be paramount. We absolutely support that idea, and recognise that children must feel Andrea Leadsom: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the interventions and decisions being made about that one way to support new young social workers their future should involve them and not just be a freshly out of university would be to provide a better process that happens to them. We are pleased that the end-to-end network of support, taking into account review recognises that we all owe a debt of gratitude to what is already available in children’s centres and other the firm foundations of reform laid down by the social therapeutic services that could be available in a package, work taskforce. Among many other reforms introduced which could help to provide the network of support by the Labour Government, the report recommends the that social workers desperately need? 371 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 372

Toby Perkins: The hon. Lady makes a valuable point. that comes at a time when Unison is reporting that The Munro review recognises the significant steps made many of its members with administrative roles are in the direction of partnership working and some of the among the first to be laid off in councils. Administration challenges, particularly in difficult financial circumstances. and record-keeping vital: they can save social workers’ The report also deals with other innovations that might time, and are invaluable to the quality of their intervention. be needed to help achieve the hon. Lady’s suggestion in No one in this House wants to prevent social workers her valuable point. from spending as much time as possible working with The report’s recommendations on the education, training children and families, and we all know that social and continuous professional development of social workers workers themselves do not go into the profession with are an important step forward. We entirely endorse the the dream of sitting at a wooden desk typing away. review’s commitment to the highest standards and There is no doubt that the review team considered at consistency of education, the importance of the highest length the amount of central prescription and the amount quality of practice placements and the new supported of time spent on administration—matters that have and assessed first year in practice, acting as the final also concerned the profession and its representative stage of becoming a fully practising social worker. We bodies and unions. We support the pilot schemes that recognise that more must be done to strengthen the quality are taking place in four authorities with the aim of of social work in this country, and a real commitment relaxing time scales. They are at an early stage, but we to improving education and recruitment will be very look forward to the outcome. We urge the Minister to welcome. ensure that the additional quality assurance measures We also believe that the recommendation for local referred to in appendix D and implemented in Hackney authorities to appoint a principal children’s and family are tightly observed while those trials are being completed, social worker could play an important role in ensuring and that before anything is done to make the changes that the voice of those who safeguard our most vulnerable widespread, the full implications of those changes are children is heard loud and clear in every town hall in the understood. land. We particularly welcome the further support for early Mr Graham Stuart: The hon. Gentleman touched on intervention to identify and work on problems as soon the subject of bureaucracy, but he did not make his as they are presented. Professor Munro particularly views clear. Does he accept that there was too much identifies the importance of early intervention whenever prescription from the centre, does he accept that it was it occurs in a child’s life, and we entirely agree with her getting in the way of effective social work, and will he on that. Although many families that require the help give an undertaking that a future Labour Government of social services might appear likely to head down the would not seek to reverse sensible, practical and common- wrong path in life from an early stage, changing sense attempts to reduce bureaucracy and ensure that circumstances can mean that children and families hit the priority is given to the front line? problems and need support at any time in the childhood journey—and the earlier those problems are identified Toby Perkins: I shall deal with that point in some and the more broadly all parties work together, the detail later. However, I can say that we support the trials better the chance that families can be kept together that are taking place. If the professionals feel that some and problems averted before they become impossible to measures can safely be dispensed with, that is acceptable deal with. as long as safeguards are established, as they have been The review also focuses at length on the importance in Hackney, to prevent slippage of cases. We do not of partnership working, extolling the virtues of the want social workers to lose sight of the importance of existing networks in early years practice and the importance some cases along with the paperwork. of a constructive relationship with the police, mental The report is evidence based, and Professor Munro health services, adult social services and health professionals. identifies both excitement and anxiety in the profession The review expresses the fear that widespread changes about the steps to be taken. Throughout its time in and the desperate financial position in which some government Labour took advice from experts seriously, public services find themselves could lead to a fracturing as the present Government are doing. of the partnerships. Indeed, we are already seeing evidence of that. Meg Munn: In the report, Professor Munro observes We know from the Secretary of State’s letter to that Professor Munro, the choice of Professor Munro to head the review team, and the press releases that have “most bureaucracy which limits practitioners’ capacity and ability emanated from the Department for Education that the to practise effectively, is generated and maintained at a local level.” need to cut paperwork and bureaucracy in order to enable social workers to do what they should be doing is We should consider that carefully. Headlines that blame intended to be a prominent theme, but anyone who people for bureaucracy are not helpful. We need to focused solely on that element of the report would identify where the bureaucracy is coming from, and greatly undermine its quality and depth. I hope that no tackle it properly. one will again attempt such a paraphrase, because the quality of the research and the importance of the issue Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend speaks on the basis of deserve better. I am thankful that the Minister went far tremendous experience as a result of the work that she beyond that in his speech today. did before entering the House—and, of course, since We welcome the recognition of the importance of doing so—and she is absolutely right. Trade unions, administrative support for social workers so that they social workers and others in the profession want us to can spend more time in the field. It is sad, however, that proceed as carefully as possible. I reiterate that there is 373 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 374

[Toby Perkins] he wants, but simply to abandon any sort of independent review until a new body is in place in the next year or so nothing that we want more than social workers who are is unsatisfactory. enabled to spend the maximum amount of time with We also feel that the decision to publish the entire the children and families with whom they are working. overview of SCRs is having, and will have, very negative We support the pilot scheme in four authorities, and consequences. When in government, Labour increased we urge the Minister to ensure that the additional the transparency of executive summaries of SCRs, but quality assurance measures referred to in the report are we feel that the balance is now leading to a less helpful followed so that the full implications of the changes are situation. Professor Munro highlights on page 61 of the understood before any measures are taken to make the review the unhappiness felt by many in the profession scheme more widespread. The proposed changes are about this move. It can hamper the attempt to make important and offer advances, but they must not be learning the principal aim of SCRs, and it inevitably rushed. The Ofsted report detailing children’s experiences restricts the enthusiasm of some practitioners to be before entering care demonstrates the importance of frank about what they may have got wrong. We need to social workers spending time in face-to-face, one-to-one see the culture change before there is a move towards meetings with the children and families in their care, but publishing the entire overview of the SCR. This also the research also shows how varied the quality of practice inevitably makes it highly unlikely that the better reporting is, and with that in mind, and in advance of the improved of social work practice by the media that the Munro education and training—and also in the context of the review cries out for will happen. It is also apparent that difficult financial settlement facing local authorities—it other partners are stepping back from getting involved must be stressed that it is vital that every care is taken. in SCRs because of the full reporting of them. The Minister was right to say that if people are refusing to The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty get involved in SCRs, that is wrong, and it is important to Children echoes this view. It states: that we learn those lessons. We are worried that publishing “The Government should not move too quickly to rapid the full overview of them is having that effect, however, deregulation. It needs to invest heavily in building the skills, regardless of whether that should be done in the best confidence and experience of all professionals working with interests of our children. children. Controls which safeguard against poor practice must stay in place while professionalism is built. Otherwise, children’s There is also anecdotal evidence, which we will be lives could be put at risk.” investigating further, that the threshold for serious case reviews is being lifted by authorities and that they are We entirely support those comments. deciding that they are less likely to do them. Again, that We have concerns about the portability of documentation will have a negative impact on our capacity to learn if each local authority has a different common assessment from past mistakes. It seems an odd set of priorities to framework. The whole point of having a common piece remove the independent evaluator of serious case reviews of documentation was that it would only need completing at the same time as we are opening them up to wider once. Perhaps it could be slimmed down and used by all public and media scrutiny. That suggests a “kangaroo partner agencies, wherever they are. If that documentation court” approach, which is totally out of keeping with needs to be re-done every time a child moves from one this review, and it could be a seriously retrograde step. authority area to another, the intention of cutting back I mentioned that the review had identified, as had our on paperwork may be undermined. own work with local authorities, that the role of the director of children’s services to be a purely child-centred We also have concerns about the recommendation position was under threat. That is hardly surprising, and current direction of travel with regard to serious given that the Secretary of State for Communities and case reviews. The review rightly identifies the importance Local Government is positively encouraging this sort of of learning lessons from SCRs. Alongside learning lessons, change to local government practice, with managers however, they must also perform the task of building merging roles and councils becoming a little bit cheaper public confidence in the profession and illustrate that and quite a bit worse. That seems to be the Pickles there is no cover-up, no attempt to hide from the truth recipe for local government. We urge this Minister to and no sense of the ranks being closed. There is a stand up for children against the right hon. Member for delicate balance to strike. Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) and we urge councils Local safeguarding children boards are not forced to to protect the role of director of children’s services. be independent and are inevitably seen by some as internal partners, having a relationship with the practitioners Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman providing the service. In some cases, they are chaired by not accept that the flip side of his argument about the director of children’s services. The independent serious case reviews is compelling? We must be transparent evaluation of the work of LSCBs on SCRs offers an at this point and we need to assist all professionals important neutral balance to ensure that the correct working in child protection. Everybody needs all that lessons have been learned. information if we are going to learn the lessons, not Professor Munro identifies LSCBs’ unhappiness at only from where things have gone wrong, but from the role of Ofsted, but I wonder whether the independent good practice. We need to have full transparency, and assessments analysing the quality of the SCRs might serious case reviews must be published in full. check on how successfully lessons are learned. It does not seem to me that the fact of an evaluation in itself Toby Perkins: As I said, we take advice from specialists prevents a culture change towards a more learning-based in the profession and many people within the social approach. Whoever does independent inspections in work field are deeply concerned about that issue; page 61 future can be directed by the Minister in whichever way of Professor Munro’s report alludes to those concerns. 375 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 376

Of course transparency is important, and it is precisely Toby Perkins: Absolutely. This is a matter on which for that reason that we would like an organisation that there is clearly consensus across the House, but there is is seen as independent continuing the evaluation of a difficulty when it comes to the reality on the ground, serious case reviews. However, alongside that important for example in Sure Start centres and with early intervention. transparency, we need to deal with key issues relating People are seeing that the—for want of a better word— to the protection of anonymity of both professionals rhetoric around early years is not being supported by and people within the families. It has been relatively funding, and there is a danger that the massive cuts to easy for people in local areas to identify who has local authorities mean that they might not be able to been alluded to in many of the serious case reviews. In follow through on worthy intentions such as those that one example that I was told about by a social work the hon. Lady mentioned, which are shared by Members professional, a serious case review referred to a relative across the House. of a soldier serving on the front line. If that review had One assistant director of children’s services said that been published in full, a difficult situation could have statutory guidance was extremely important to ensure been caused for someone who was already in a difficult that she could stand up to councillors who look to her position. Although I share the hon. Lady’s idea that services for cuts, as it meant she could say, “This is transparency is important, and it is for precisely that stuff that we have to do.” She warned that the more reason that an independent review of the evaluation freedom local authorities were given to drop safeguards, must remain a part of the system, I question whether the more likely councils would be to cut back on this approach will aid learning and will instead reduce safeguarding. That is not an argument for keeping in people’s willingness to get involved. place regulation that we can do without, but it is a Much of this review is dedicated to the importance of possible unintended consequence of which the Minister improving the quality of social work training and the should be wary. continuous professional development journey that social Our survey also showed that directors of children’s workers go on, yet worrying signs are already emerging services are almost unanimous about the impact of cuts about councils reacting to the savage cuts forced on on police, mental health and primary care services, them by cutting back on CPD and training. We also saying that it will reduce their ability to safeguard share Professor Munro’s alarm about the evidence of children in their care. That is the voice from the ground cuts to early years provision. Some 25% of Children and no one can run away from it. England member organisations are experiencing cuts of more than a quarter of their income—for them it seems On the subject of local authorities’ identifying which as if the big society is rapidly shrinking. The Minister models of best practice they want to follow, we are needs to stand up for early years funding if the measures again in support of the principle, but I am interested to on sharing responsibility for early help set out in this know what drivers of best practice the Minister feels he report are to be more than warm words. Continued has at his disposal to improve standards. Is he worried denial about the scale or fact of the cuts will simply that if each council is radically different in the way that suggest that the Government are not serious. It is it provides services, the transition for social workers particularly worrying that areas with the highest level of who move from one authority to another will be more deprivation and the highest demands on social services difficult? Will it increase the postcode lottery? Will are the very ones that have seen the largest Government there be even greater variation in the quality of service cuts. provision from one authority to another? As I have said, our greatest reservations about the Andrea Leadsom rose— direction of travel proposed in the report are not about Professor Munro’s suggestions, but about whether the Toby Perkins: I will just make this point and then I Government will put legislative and financial muscle will be happy to allow the hon. Lady to intervene. behind the changes that she suggests. An exciting opportunity to build on past progress has been presented, I have referred to the survey that we sent to every and the Government, having commissioned this report, director of children’s services in England on the state of now need to act on it fully, with the relatively minor safeguarding services. We had an excellent response exceptions that I have described. from a significant proportion of local authorities and a number of patterns emerged. Local authorities are trying We worry that the dogma of cutting back on the state desperately hard to protect spending on safeguarding, could overpower the genuine desire to do the best for and we salute them for that. However, despite that our most vulnerable children. The Minister and the commitment, 36% of local authorities expected case Government can rely on us to support them on these loads to increase this year and only 10% expected them reforms if they actually provide the resources needed. to fall. One assistant director of children’s services This is not an opportunity for cherry-picking, but it is a explained the paradox of statutory guidance. time for boldness. The Minister and the Government have an opportunity to act and we hope that they seize Before I move on any further, I will allow the hon. it because our children deserve nothing less. Lady to intervene. I was trying to find a natural pause, but the words just flowed so wonderfully that I could not stop. Several hon. Members rose—

Andrea Leadsom: I am very grateful. In this time of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. This financial austerity, is it not more important than ever to was always going to be a short debate for Back Benchers, get good value for money by focusing on prevention but it has been made somewhat shorter, so I am introducing rather than having the massive costs, further down the a six-minute limit to ensure that as many Back Benchers line, of taking children into care? as possible get in. 377 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 378

5.3 pm with doing what motivated them to take on such an admirable vocation in the first place. As one BASW Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): member said: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the “I feel exhausted and stressed for the majority of the time. I opportunity to contribute to this significant, serious have only been in the child protection team for 3 months and have and now rather too short debate on this extremely already decided that the work is too stressful and too risky—I am important issue. Only a few months ago, I was granted now actively looking for another job.” an Adjournment debate on how we can improve outcomes High staff turnover, high levels of sick leave, a high for children in care and I am pleased that many of the percentage of agency workers—the figure is as high as arguments I raised with the Minister, together with 50% in some children’s services departments—and an recommendations on how to reform and strengthen the increase in long-service leavers are all signs of a failing care system, particularly around child protection, are organisation. More worryingly, however, that puts the very much at the heart of the Munro report. I must children who need protecting at a greater risk of harm. declare an interest as a non-practising family law barrister The culture needs to change once and for all. specialising in care cases as well as being the son of foster carers who have fostered 90 children over the past In their response to the report on looked-after children 30 years. that was produced during the previous Parliament by the Children, Schools and Families Committee, the The reaction to the Munro review has been almost Government clearly identified those problems and endorsed universal in its praise. I have read the responses of the the report’s view that high staff turnover, heavy work National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, loads and administrative burdens lead to relationships the Association of Directors of Children’s Services, that cannot flourish and social workers who do not feel Action for Children, Home-Start, the British Association empowered. They went on to express their commitment of Social Workers and the British Association for Adoption to changing the system so that social workers have and Fostering, among others, and they all agree that the “more freedom to make decisions, more support and understanding, report is an important opportunity to create a high-quality and less prescription and censure.” child protection system. This prompts me to ask why It was extremely gratifying that the Minister re-emphasised these changes have not already happened. It is not as that the Government take those important issues seriously. though previous reviews and reports have not drilled I do not doubt their determination, but given that down and exposed the inherent flaws in the system. people have asked why that is yet to happen, there is a In his second report of March 2009, Lord Laming worry that if we are not careful the critical state of some lamented the children’s services departments could lead to another round of regulations that result in even more prescription “over-complicated, lengthy and tick-box assessment and recording system” and red tape, which, as history has shown, would only make matters worse. that has developed since the Climbié report in 2003. Of Eileen Munro is right that we need to reduce radically course, he is right, but despite his exasperated pleas the the amount of central prescription so that we help tick-box culture has continued to spread its tentacles professionals to move from a compliance culture to a across social work and to sap the morale and professional learning culture. We need to focus on the essential rules judgment of the work force. Children in need do not for effective multi-agency working that have been so require reams of paper produced by case reviews and do successful in places such as Hackney and Ealing, as well not benefit from a social worker who spends half their as on the principles that underpin good practice elsewhere time strapped to their desk and sat in front of a computer. in our child protection system. We also need to focus on They also do not need social workers who sit in endless the quality of the help that is given by paying close meetings. attention to the views and experiences of those who Social workers do not want that either. As part of her receive the services and the professionals who help social work taskforce report, Moira Gibb asked social them. We will never completely eradicate the risks of workers to identify the factors that would most improve harm to children, but by building a system with the their professional lives and, by implication, their ability child at its centre, rather than one that is driven by to do a professional child-focused job. They indentified: process, we can be in a much stronger position to first, fewer targets; secondly, smaller case loads; thirdly, anticipate, flush out and deal more effectively with the the abandonment of the integrated children’s system; risks that still remain. and, fourthly, more experienced social workers in their teams. Of course inspection, accountability and good 5.8 pm record keeping are important, but it has been clear for too long that, as the ADCS says, social workers are Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I, too, welcome the publication of the review of the child protection system “hindered by the restrictions and regulations concerning assessment, risk management and performance indicators that do not focus by Professor Eileen Munro. Her excellent report is on the best outcomes for the children and young people involved.” thoughtful, well researched and based on extensive consultation. She makes the strong point that the responses The social work taskforce found that those engaged to the terrible deaths of children in recent years have in child protection work spent only a quarter of their shaped the existing child protection system. She identifies time with the children they were there to protect. In four driving forces and says: short, the system has become too preoccupied with “These forces have come together to create a defensive system compliance, bureaucracy and defensiveness. As a that puts so much emphasis on procedures and recording that consequence, we have a demoralised child protection insufficient attention is given to developing and supporting the work force who are depressed by negative media attention expertise to work effectively with children, young people and but without the confidence to break free and get on families.” 379 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 380

I agree with her conclusion that there should be a move together. We know that running away is an important from doing the right thing procedurally to doing the indicator that things are not right in a child’s life. One in right thing for the child. five children who run away will be harmed and many Professor Munro points out that her recommendations will become involved in the things that worry parents are not a quick fix but should be seen in the context of and society the most—drugs, alcohol and falling prey changing the system while putting in place the knowledge, to sexual predators. I pay tribute to the recent Barnardo’s skills and professional expertise to enable professionals report, “Puppet on a String”, which highlights those confidently to exercise their judgment to do the right issues. thing. Judging whether a child should be removed from I welcome the Government’s recent announcement of their family because there is an unacceptable risk to an action plan to tackle child sexual exploitation and their life or well-being might be necessary in a very think it is important that it focuses on both running complex family situation. It might follow months of away and child sexual exploitation, as all the research concern, intervention and meetings with parents and shows that the two issues go hand in hand. I will be other agencies. Assessing the risk to a child relies on interested to hear the results of the Child Exploitation many agencies working together to do the right thing. I and Online Protection Centre’s current investigations absolutely agree that over-reliance on procedures does on recent cases of sexual grooming. One of the problems not help make such decision making effective. As she is the collection and analysis of data and assessing the says, procedures can be followed in a way that is technically risk to children individually and in the wider community. correct but so inexpert that the desired result is not I hope that the work being undertaken by CEOP will achieved. help to develop a risk assessment framework for incidents What is the right thing for the child? In my early years of children going missing that could form the basis of as a social worker I supervised a family—a single mother effective inter-agency work. Local safeguarding boards who was an alcoholic and who had a seven-year-old have an important role because they are in a unique child. The bond was close. The problem was that the position to monitor how effective local agencies are in mother’s drinking took the form of drinking bouts, addressing the problem. often resulting in blackouts, during which she was unable When the Minister considers recommendation 6 in to supervise the child in the home. The child had taken Professor Munro’s report, I would like him to take on to wandering outside the house at night and his attendance board the child protection issues in relation to runaway at school was suffering, but there was no question of his children. I firmly believe that if we can reduce the suffering any direct harm from the mother. When sober, massive number of children and young people running she provided good parenting and the child responded to away and going missing, we can reduce the number at it, but no amount of intervention or exhortation could risk from violence, drugs, alcohol, sexual exploitation stop her drinking and instead she retreated into a tissue and grooming. of lies to hide the extent of her problem. I use that example to illustrate the complexity of judging what is 5.14 pm the right thing to do, as levels of risk are not easy to assess and must be balanced against positives for the Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Thank you, child in an existing relationship and the outcomes of Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to any actions on their long-term welfare. contribute to the debate on this excellent review. I was particularly interested in the report’s chapter on Strikingly, we knew as far back as 2009 that some sharing responsibility for the provision of early help, social workers spent more than 80% of their time in particularly early in the emergence of a problem. I front of paperwork, rather than out on the front line, entirely agree with Professor Munro that preventive face to face with children and families. Cameron’s quotation: services will do more to reduce abuse and neglect than “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything reactive services and that the co-ordination of services that counts can be counted,” is important to maximise efficiency. published in 1963, has never been more apt than it is to As chair of the all-party group on runaway and our over-bureaucratic and compliance-ridden system. missing children and adults, I would like to offer some The focus on early intervention, also highlighted in the comments on the child protection system in relation to Allen, Field and Dame Clare Tickell reviews, shows the children who are vulnerable to abuse and exploitation long-term benefits to the enrichment of families on the while missing from home or care. Sadly, many children whole, as well as the massive reduced burden on the cost and young people go missing from children’s homes. to the state, and it can only highlight the need to turn For them, it has already been decided that they cannot that huge supertanker in a different direction. be safeguarded and protected at home. We are their It is time that we put social workers on the professional corporate parents and they are in our care, and I was platform that they deserve. We need to develop a system pleased that the Minister referred in particular to our in which child protection truly is a multi-agency business responsibilities as corporate parents. involving not only social workers but schools, police and More than 100,000 children run away overnight each health workers all finally working together—a system that year. Readers of the Manchester Evening News were removes constraints on local innovation and professional stunned to read recently that there were 11,819 police judgment. But let us not be under any illusions about reports of children going missing in Greater Manchester the time that it will take to change mindsets and to last year. Of those, 2,281 cases related to youngsters implement the changes needed. The system has been so aged 11 or younger. Another shocking figure is that half burdened for far too long. of those cases related to children living in care, with I will hone in on the role of the lead member for more children disappearing from the 43 children’s homes children’s services in local authorities, a position that in Stockport than in the rest of Greater Manchester put Professor Munro says should not be undermined. Having 381 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 382

[Craig Whittaker] the lead member, who is currently a participant observer, should be a full-time member of the local safeguarding spent three years as lead member for children’s services children board. Secondly, I would like the Minister to on Calderdale council, I believe that the lead member consider the fact that there is no mandatory training for role needs to be looked at and enhanced through further the lead member role. Training of sorts is available, but guidance. I know only too well how brilliant a lead it is difficult to accommodate if they have a full-time member is and how brilliant they are considered when job. Thirdly, will the Minister consider guidance on they are out there batting for that extra £1 million in the making the lead member role a four-year term for the budget, but the moment they start asking tricky or sake of continuity? Calderdale is now on its fourth in challenging questions they can almost see and feel the three years. shutters closing down around them. Finally, may I ask the Minister to look at the leadership— One good thing that the previous Government did introduce, just over two years ago, was the lead member’s Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Three membership of the local safeguarding children’s out of four is not bad. board, albeit on a limited basis as a participant observer. With that privilege, I could at least challenge partner agencies, and had it been introduced earlier I might 5.20 pm have been able to use it as a tool to deep-dive issues even Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): If the further. hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) wants Generally, however, partner agencies were not the to intervene on me at an appropriate point, perhaps he only problem, because they chose to work traditionally can get his fourth point in. in silos; it was also down to our directorate. The problem started at the top in Calderdale, which, like most authorities I welcome this debate and this report. Child protection in the UK, has an educationist as its director of children’s is an important issue that has been given too little services. Educationists also take up most head of service attention, generally having periods of intense focus roles. Educationists and social workers generally lack following the death or serious injury of a child or the professional knowledge and understanding of each children. No one could disagree with the aims set out by other’s roles, and without question there is professional Professor Munro, but I want to look at some issues that snobbery between the two. are perhaps more nuanced than the Minister set out in his speech. Just imagine, then, how it was for a lead member with only 30 years’ retail and people management experience Looking back, we have had investment in the past. going into that lion’s den. As one head of service once From 1998, we had the Quality Protects programme, said to me, “With all due respect, you are only a which made a big difference to social services; I speak shopkeeper.” A tongue-in-cheek comment, I know, but from personal experience. More recent work done by the battle line was drawn. the previous Government should be built on. Indeed, Professor Munro identifies the need to build on the firm The lead member is also generally part time and foundations of reform created by the Social Work Taskforce often from a totally different sector. They are the only and the Social Work Reform Board. Let us not reinvent councillor with legal responsibilities, but when things the wheel where we do not need to. do not go as well as they should, as was the case for me in Calderdale, gaining access to information can be Importantly, Professor Munro recognises the multi- hugely cumbersome. The information is often non-existent, agency nature of this field. There is a danger of other and frankly the lead member can hear those shutters Government policies making child protection more difficult. going down around them. I am concerned not only about the cuts but about the proposals for how things are to be done. The all-party Interestingly, Professor Munro mentions Klein’s view child protection group, which I chair, and of which on intuition, and with my managerial experience and many members are present, will be carrying out an intuition it became evident to me early on that we had a inquiry into the proposals on vetting and barring, and I head of service who was not fit for purpose, an information hope that that is helpful. The next session is on Monday—a service that was wholly inadequate, a children’s service little advert there—and I hope to see many Members base budget that was under-resourced to the tune of attending to look at this in detail. £1.5 million, a work force with low morale and a high proportion of agency staff, core and initial assessments We need to be aware of the importance of child woefully behind on time scales, two serious case reviews protection for children in all settings. Looked-after in the pipeline and a children’s trust in name only—and children have been mentioned, and the residential sector all that was just the headline stuff. When I challenged is important. On health, what is going to happen as those responsible for the day-to-day running of CYP result of the abolition of primary care trusts? The PCTs services, there were always reasoned responses and excuses, have played an essential role in local safeguarding because but that is often exactly what they were—excuses. It they can give an overview and they are able to get took three heads of service, three serious case reviews involved in the wider issues of what is happening in and more than two years before the appointment of a their local area. I fear that the proposals do not deal new director of children’s services, who agreed to an with ensuring proper, effective child protection policies independent review by PricewaterhouseCoopers, before for the future. I also have worries about the role of the we managed to get a truthful picture of how bad things police. were in Calderdale regarding safeguarding. I have great concerns about education. I will not go Professor Munro mentions the role of the lead member into those in detail now, as I have raised them with the staying the same. I would like the Government to consider Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. four key points, if I can get them in very quickly. First, Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), 383 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 384 who was here earlier. Certain aspects of the Education I do not mind shortening my speech to make sure that Bill put children at risk, and the Government need to other hon. Members can speak, but there are certain deal with that. things that I must say. I am also concerned about the localism agenda. The I disagree with the Government’s objective of increasing recommendations in chapter 4 on accountability lead us the number of adoptions. Already in England, roughly to believe that there are clear tensions in this respect. twice as many children under five who leave care are We should be able to specify what needs to be done, and adopted than return to their parents. In fact, the number there should be ways of following best practice while returning to their parents went down last year. Of the ensuring some local flexibility. The Government need to 4,700 under-fives who left care in the year to 31 March address that properly. 2010, 880 went to their parents and 2,000 were adopted. I want to speak briefly about the recording of information In Scotland, the reverse is true and the majority return and time scales. That debate has been conducted in a to their parents. I define care as compulsory care and do one-dimensional way. Poor IT systems have made life not include all the section 20 children who go into care difficult. However, it is significant that every major voluntarily. It is important to consider those issues. inquiry into child deaths has identified two things Checks and balances are critical. I very much support at fault: poor information-sharing between different the Munro report and think that the approach of being professions in contact with children and poor recording less bureaucratic is important. Sadly, I do not support of information. Not only is good recording essential the family justice review. The difficulty is that if one is to enable effective continuity of support for children, to look at the process of dealing with a child who goes sometimes over years or when somebody is on leave, but into the care system, one must consider all the aspects. it is part of the process that social workers need to go Even if one considers just the local authority costs and through to reflect on a family’s situation. The idea that the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support the only work of a social worker is direct face-to-face Service costs for a child who is taken into care at birth contact is false. and then adopted, one sees that half the costs are for I echo the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member foster care and half are legal costs, fees for experts and for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) about moving to the use such things. If one is to look at how that process can be of all localised forms. Frankly, that would take us back managed to work effectively, one has to consider both round the circle. Thirty years ago when I started in the judicial processes with its checks and balances and social work, every local authority used a different form the decision making in the first instance. The Munro and a different process. Not only did that involve lots of inquiry is about the process by which decisions are made people writing those forms and producing guidance, and the process by which those decisions are given but it meant that when people moved authorities, it quality control. In my view, it is the quality control on took even experienced staff a long time to understand the decisions that fails. That is why there are a lot of the systems and procedures. I know that the Minister is odd decisions and some very strange outcomes. genuinely committed to this agenda, and I commend I thank the Minister for the efforts of his statisticians him for that, but I urge him to consider a middle way. in producing a detailed analysis of the SSDA903 return. I also urge the Minister to consider a middle way for I have a copy here and anybody is welcome to see it. serious case reviews. He and I have disagreed on the Obviously it is available under freedom of information. publication of serious case reviews in full, and I will not That analysis demonstrates what is happening to the rehearse those arguments now because I do not have children. Our priority should be what happens to the time. However, I think that he should have held back, children and what is best for the children. carried out a review, and put in place a new system. In The problem when we get something substantially my experience, not only are full case reviews poor wrong, as I think we are, and when the practice is learning tools, but sometimes their publication means substantially wrong for a number of years, is that that people do not come forward. There was a well- people continue to practice in the same way. Only many publicised case in Sheffield only a year ago of serious years later when the children grow up and wonder, intergenerational abuse. The people in that family would “Why was that done to me?”, do things get reviewed. not have come forward if they had thought that their That happened in respect of the children who were sent information would be put into the public domain. around the world, for instance to Canada and Australia. This is an important review in many ways, and we That decision is now recognised as wrong, but at the need to go into it in more detail. I ask the Minister to time it was thought to be right. A similar situation is give more detail on how a wider group of people occurring in respect of about 1,000 children a year—that beyond his implementation group can have an input figure looks right when the figures in England are into the recommendations to ensure that we get the best compared with those in Scotland—in cases of forced possible things out of the review for the benefit of adoptions in which consent is dispensed with. That children, social workers and all who work in this important problem is of a reasonable order of magnitude and, in area. the end, it comes down to the need for individual case studies. 5.26 pm Another area in which the Government are missing out is in studying what happens to children who are John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): We now adopted. In many cases the adoption is disrupted, so have about three minutes if we are to get everybody in. about a quarter of those children return to the care When do we have until? Is it not until 6? [Interruption.] system and some are then adopted again, causing them Okay, I will keep going and stick to time. If I have six additional trauma. If we are to assess the effect of minutes, I will be quite happy. I want everybody to have adoption decisions, we have to include the effect on the opportunity to speak in such an important debate. children who come back into care because they have 385 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 386

[John Hemming] barriers. Too many rules prevent foster carers from getting close to children for that to happen meaningfully had reactive attachment disorder, perhaps as a result of in reality. being taken into care too early and by overloaded foster I welcome the Minister’s comments on learning from carers. A lot of issues are not being looked at, and we care leavers—that needs to continue. On the issue of need longitudinal studies of individual cases. neglect, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Many Members want to speak, and I have emphasised Heeley (Meg Munn) said that striking the right balance the points about adoptions that I keep making. The between protecting the vulnerable child and the rights figures are there, and I thank the Minister for getting of the individual is incredibly important. From the them, but he should take them into account. experience of constituents who have spoken to me, far too often, the rights of the individual parent are given greater prominence than the needs and rights of the child. 5.31 pm Because I am an adoptive parent, I shall speak briefly Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I add my welcome in the time I have left about adoption. I welcome the for the work of Professor Munro and the recommendations comments in the report on reducing the delay in getting in her report. The huge challenge for Ministers is how children through to adoption, but there are serious to put them into practice. I welcome the Minister’s blockages in finding families. Measures for finding good announcement of the group that will be set up, and the families in adoption and fostering are very important, expertise of the people who will be on it. I ask him to as is providing long-term support. There is a lack of consider including a member of the Opposition in that support for foster carers and a lack of long-term support group—other than a Labour councillor. He knows what for adopters. I hope that the Minister will take that I mean by that. point on board. I want to speak about my concerns about the speed of The delays in the courts cause great concerns to intervention and the impact of neglect that does not hit professionals and families. The courts are still far too the headlines through serious case reviews. I should slow. I am aware of a case in which some children from mention one of my interests in the matter—I am an a large family were adopted and some went into long-term adoptive parent. When I trained as an adoptive parent, foster care. One child ended up back with the mother we were presented with evidence that over an extended because the court refused to look at the evidence from period, neglect is often, although not always, far more social services, which had originally issued the order for damaging to a child or young person than physical or the family to go into care. The system is quite unworkable, sexual abuse. That is why it is so important to consider because the neglect remained after the child returned. neglect. I welcome the report. This is a long-term project, and I will quote the comments of a senior NHS professional, I hope that Members on both sides of the House come who writes: together to support it. “Child protection’s preventative role in protecting vulnerable children/young people from neglectful behaviours is hindered and hampered by a lack of clarity and legislative support to recognise 5.37 pm the impact of neglect on a child or young person until it reaches a Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I am pleased to speak in threshold for ‘significant harm’. This results in an inability to respond in a timely manner until it is too late to prevent harm this extremely important debate on child protection. I from occurring. find it quite startling that this is the first debate on child protection that has been instigated by a Government, as Practitioner tools and chronologies to identify and recognise these neglectful behaviours do not provide the requisite evidence the Minister told us in his opening remarks. Given the base to support care proceedings or child in need packages that difficulties and concerns over child protection, which put the child in focus.” have been ongoing for many years, I find that worrying. She continues: This might be the first such debate instigated by a Government, but I hope that it will not be the last. “Legislation needs to provide clarity of definition and recognise the impact of neglectful behaviours. The practitioners need to be I should declare an interest, because I worked as a provided with definitions which are not retrospective; in other family lawyer for about 10 years, specialising in child words the legal system needs to recognise neglectful behaviours as protection and adoption. I should also say at the outset significant before ‘significant harm’ has been caused to a child or that I welcome the conclusions in Professor Munro’s young person, by which time it is too late.” report. The point has already been made, but it is a The Minister spoke about the importance of trying to quality report. It is extremely well set out and contains keep families together and used the phrase “fostering many helpful conclusions. I hope the Government families”. It is important that that is given every chance, implement many of its recommendations. but I am aware—this is the point made by that health Over my years of working for and representing parties professional—that in far too many cases, the balance is in care proceedings—that includes social workers and skewed too far in that direction. It can take too long, parents, or children, through their guardians—I have and evidence of potential neglect is ignored. Early seen dozens or even hundreds of extremely dedicated, recognition, and action on it, is essential. The evidence hard-working social workers, who try their best in very that I have seen, of which other Members will be well difficult circumstances to protect children. In my view, aware, shows that the long-term damage of extended that is front-line work. It can be a dangerous job. Social neglect is incredibly bad for people psychologically and workers must sometimes go into people’s homes when for their mental health long into adulthood. they do not know what is on the other side of the front To come back to the comments that one or two hon. door. They could find a parent under the influence of Members have made, those in foster care are not universally alcohol or find themselves in a violent situation. Children treated as one of the family, because there are too many might need to be removed. 387 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 388

I bear that in mind, which is why I hope that following of caring, motivated and well-trained social workers the conclusions of the Munro report, we focus on just cannot be overestimated. Frankly, if we do not empowering those social workers to exercise their recognise the massive potential of a good social worker professional judgment as best they can, without being to turn around life chances for babies and children in hampered by other pressures in their day-to-day jobs. I vulnerable families, we shall get the society we deserve. would not like to make those decisions—they can be I congratulate Professor Munro on her comprehensive life-changing decisions—on whether a child should be report on what is generally recognised to be a difficult removed, whether one should undertake a further and troubled area. I want to focus today on assessment of a parent, or whether all has been done recommendations 10 to 13 of that report, because I but it is time to draw a line and look for an adoptive have spent the last 10 years of my life developing a placement for a family. passion for and a detailed understanding of why she The Centre for Social Justice has produced some may have made those points. figures that remind us that although care leavers form Recommendation 10 states: only 1% of the population, they are four to five times more likely to have mental health issues; a third of “Government should place a duty on local authorities and statutory partners to provide sufficient early intervention services homeless people have been care leavers; 30% of children for those children and young people who do not meet child in custody and 23% of the adult prison population have protection thresholds”. been in care; and more than 20% of women who leave care between the ages of 16 and 19 become mothers That, to me, is the key recommendation, and I can within a year, compared to just 5% of the general encapsulate why in the shortest of slogans: prevention is population. These are troubling figures and, as we seek kinder and cheaper than cure. Supporting vulnerable to support social workers, we must remember that they families and enabling them to form a secure bond with are trying to achieve improved outcomes for all the their babies in the first two years of life has profound young people in their care. I know that all hon. Members consequences for society. Can anyone here imagine will be committed to improving those figures. what the relationship is like between a mother and her baby if she would allow her boyfriend to stub out I pay tribute to the contribution by the hon. Member cigarettes on her little boy, as happened in the case of for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), who mentioned baby Peter? No, none of us can quite get our heads the important issue of neglect. There are different sorts around what on earth possessed a mother to so violate of abuse that children can suffer—physical, sexual the nurturing role of parent and carer as to allow her and emotional, as well as neglect—and more than own need for a boyfriend to overrule the tigerish instinct 19,300 children are under child protection plans for of a mother. For my own part, I am quite sure I would neglect. That is a very high figure, and that kind of kill rather than let anyone harm my children like that. abuse can have long-term effects that are just as damaging as other forms of abuse. That is why the attempt to What makes one mother or parent neglect, abuse or support early intervention work is so important. It is even kill her own child, while another would kill to just those families in which neglect persists for several protect her child, is simple: the quality of the attachment years, and who perhaps fall in and out of the attention between the carer and the child. This attachment begins of social work departments, who need our help to be during pregnancy, and its development is most critical able to move on. during the first two years of a baby’s life. We could call it the Harry Potter syndrome. Harry was loved and Over the years I have represented local authorities, nurtured by his parents until Lord Voldemort murdered children and parents in some very upsetting cases. I do them when Harry was two years old. He then suffered not wish to be over-dramatic, but some children arrive unspeakable cruelty and neglect at the hands of his in foster care so thirsty that they drink out of the uncle, aunt and cousin, but through it all he kept his lavatory bowl. Some hide food in their room in case the unshakable sense of self-worth, personal resilience and food never appears again. Some have been shaken so his ability to make friends and form strong relationships. badly that they are brain-damaged for life. I give these Those qualities are the reward for secure early attachment examples as a reminder of the pressures and challenges between baby and adult carer. that social work teams have to face every day. Those examples are not from a Dickensian story set more than That is not just an entertaining story; the scientific 100 years ago: they are happening in our country in evidence is overwhelming. When a baby is born his 2011. We must all work harder to stop such abuse brain is significantly underdeveloped, but between six taking place. months and 18 months, as a result of the stimulation of Time is against me, but I shall conclude with my key a loving relationship, of peek-a-boo games and silly point. We must take this opportunity to try to move baby-language chatter with mum, the brain puts on a forward with the Munro conclusions, empower social massive growth spurt and the central frontal cortex—the workers to make their professional judgments, and reduce part of the brain that enables empathy and deals with bureaucracy. social interaction—starts to develop at an astonishing rate. Conversely, the baby who is neglected, abused or treated inconsistently by uncaring adults will fail to 5.43 pm develop a healthy frontal cortex. His ability in later life Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): to form strong relationships with friends, a partner, The greatest risk of dying a violent death is when you work colleagues and so on will be severely impaired—and are less than one year old. And the greatest risk comes for a girl baby who does not form a secure bond, the not from strangers, but from those who are closest to incredible tragedy is that without help, she will struggle you in your own home—those who should love you and to form a bond with her own babies in later life, and take care of you. Social workers are in the front line of so the cycle of misery is perpetuated through the the battle to protect babies and children. The importance generations. 389 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 390

[Andrea Leadsom] professionals, including those more generally involved in the delivery of health care. There will therefore be a It is at the critical end of the spectrum of poor transfer of functions between the bodies. attachment that the social worker is the key to the One consequence of that is that offices in Rugby will outcome for the child and the family. Where a baby is be closed, involving a certain number of redundancies, severely neglected or abused, the development of the although the date is not certain. Since the announcement, frontal cortex may simply never happen. Babies left to I have met both management and members of staff at scream for hours at a time suffer other problems as a the General Social Care Council. Staff have concerns, result of having constantly raised levels of the stress principally that there will no longer be a body specifically hormone. Those babies develop a tendency towards dedicated to the regulation of professionals in the sector, high-risk-taking behaviour, drugs, violence and self- and that the focus that currently exists may be lost. The harming. Our prisons, streets and psychiatric hospitals Munro report draws attention to the important role of are full of the evidence of poor early attachment. It is in the social work profession in ensuring that all children these cases—the most difficult to resolve—that social are safe. Specifically, recommendations 11 and 12 reiterate workers often represent the only chance of survival for the need for the robust supervision and training of the family. However, their challenges are manifold. How social workers, supported nationally by a regulator. It is can they identify those particular cases? How can they therefore crucial that the HPC should continue to monitor tell if the problems are temporary or life-threatening, the ongoing professional development of social workers. and how can they be supported in what is an almost We have heard much in today’s debate about the impossible task? value and importance of the role played by the social I put it to my hon. Friend the Minister that providing work profession in child protection. I hope that in parent-infant psychotherapy will dramatically change summing up, the Minister can provide assurances that, the work load of social workers and the amount of in the interests of all the vulnerable people whom they support available for these vulnerable families before support, there will continue to be proper and effective those problems happen. I wanted to give you a perfect regulation of social work professionals. case study, Mr Deputy Speaker, but time does not permit, so you will have to take my word for it that the 5.52 pm Oxford Parent Infant Project, a charity that I have chaired for the past 10 years, provides an enormous Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Like the amount of life-saving support for families in Oxfordshire previous speaker, I do not intend to make a long speech. by working with social workers to reduce their work I rise to make just one point to the Minister before load, to provide them with the support they need and to allowing him the time he needs to sum up the debate. help these vulnerable children. OXPIP also provides I welcome the Munro report and its recommendations. training in the crucial understanding of parent-infant Everybody, on both sides of the House, would agree relationships. What is so sad, to my mind, is that for that it is important for the best interests of the child to many of those who attend, it is a “road to Damascus” be paramount in all child protection decisions. However, moment. Previously they had no understanding of brain a number of constituents have raised concerns with me development, the critical importance of early attachment about the term “emotional abuse”, and how it is defined and the possible interventions. and interpreted by social services. I note that none of I would like to leave my hon. Friend with these two the recommendations of the Munro report relates to thoughts: first, we need to provide parent-infant the term “emotional abuse” or its definition. We would psychotherapy across children’s centres in the UK, and all agree with the need for children to be taken away secondly, we need to improve significantly the quality of from such abuse, but some parents who have come to education not just for social workers but for everyone my surgeries are concerned that in some cases social who works with babies. services are being over-zealous or taking quite extreme action based on a rather loose interpretation of the 5.49 pm term “emotional abuse”. In one case highlighted to me, social services removed a child from her parents because Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I want to make just one they felt that she had not been made aware of her father, brief but important point that has arisen as a consequence the evidence for this being that there were no photos in of representations made to me by constituents about the house. That seems to be based on a loose definition the regulation of the social work profession. of “emotional abuse”. As part of the Minister’s review The regulator of social work has been the General of child protection services, will he consider looking Social Care Council, which is charged with issuing and again at the definition of the term, to ensure that it is enforcing standards of professional conduct and practice. applied correctly and accurately? For the past few years the council has been located in my constituency of Rugby, having relocated from London. 5.53 pm However, last July the council learnt that it was on the list of non-departmental bodies to be disbanded by the Tim Loughton: I did not expect there to be time for a Government. Understandably, the Government wish to proper summing up, but as there is, I will make the most reduce the cost of bureaucracy and regulation. Early of it. advice from the Department of Health was that there This has been an excellent debate—well measured was no compelling reason to retain the council, with a and exceedingly well informed—with the House at its potentially significant benefit arising from social workers best, and certainly its most earnest. Indeed, the being placed on a footing similar to that of professional implementation working group on the Munro report workers and regulation being transferred to the Health could have been formed of the hon. Members in the Professions Council, a body that will regulate all Chamber who have contributed today. We have two 391 Munro Report9 JUNE 2011 Munro Report 392 adoptive fathers who revealed themselves as such in We have had an excellent debate. I do not have time to their contributions. We also have two family law barristers, refer to every point that has been raised, but the personal one of whom—my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe experience that has been brought to bear today does the and Nantwich (Mr Timpson)—grew up with 90 foster House credit. There has been overwhelming support for children, because of the amazing contribution of his the principle, the thrust and the exhaustive nature of parents, as well as having adopted siblings. the Munro review. The hon. Member for Stockport We have two former social workers, who also happen (Ann Coffey) said that it was well researched and the to be the chairs of the all-party parliamentary groups result of extensive consultation. She also said that too on runaway and missing children and adults, and on much of what social workers have to do may be technically child protection. They have always brought enormous correct but inexpert in its findings. expertise to the House on those matters. We have crossed The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) swords, and also often agreed, in many Committees on made some excellent points. I thank him for his welcome many pieces of legislation over the years. We also have for the report, and we look forward to working with one former lead member for children’s services in a Members on both sides of the House on carrying council, even if he was “only a shopkeeper”. Of course, forward its recommendations. This is an evidence-based Churchill said that we were a nation of shopkeepers, so review, and I want to see Government policy guided by my hon. Friend should not undersell himself in that evidence, and by things that work and actually improve way. My only regret is that we will never hear his fourth the outcomes for children at the sharp end. My hon. point. We know about the missing fourth man— Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich pointed out that this is not rocket science, and ask why it had Craig Whittaker: Will the Minister give way? not been done before. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) Tim Loughton: I would be delighted to hear my hon. mentioned the very good work of the social work taskforce Friend’s fourth point. and the social work reform board. We acknowledge that that work was undertaken under the previous Government. Craig Whittaker: My fourth point was about the When we set up the Munro review, the first thing I said chairmanship of the local safeguarding children boards. was that it was not intended to take the place of or to There are still 23 authorities in the UK that have the rubbish the work that had gone before; it was to complement director of children’s services as the chair of their that work. The first person Eileen Munro went to see board. Will the Minister ensure that in future the role of was Moira Gibb, the head of the reform board. Members the chair is independent? of the reform board have worked on the review and are now working in the implementation group. Tim Loughton: What an excellent fourth point that The hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) was! It was well worth waiting for. When we were in mentioned the mixed destinations of siblings who are opposition we said that the chairs of local safeguarding taken into adoption or care. That is a really important children boards should be independent. I think that the point, and I want to do a lot more work on it. I have boards should include lead members and perhaps directors heard too many horrific stories of families being broken of children’s services, in whatever role, but they should up. At a time when they cannot rely on the stability and be independently chaired. If LSCBs are to make progress familiarity of their birth parents, it is crucial that they and have more teeth and more importance, that will be should have the familiarity of contact with their siblings an even more important factor in the future. I am glad when they desperately need some kind of anchor. My that my hon. Friend managed to get his fourth point in. hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) has So, we have one shopkeeper turned lead member of had great experience of children in the care system, and children’s services. We also have one head of a very she told the House that the incidence of mental health successful children’s charity who has enormous expertise issues and homelessness was absolutely appalling. in attachment. We have a Member who I think used his I thank everyone in the Chamber for an excellent first Adjournment debate to discuss adoption, including debate. We are absolutely determined to carry forward some cases in his constituency. We have another new the recommendations of the Munro review. Today’s Member who has taken up the cudgels on behalf of debate will help to inform our response, and I look constituents who are concerned about abuses of adoption. forward to receiving the help of all hon. Members to And we have one conspiracy theorist. I pay tribute to ensure that we get this right. I am up for that challenge, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley as are the House and the Government, and we are going (John Hemming); we disagree on many aspects of this to make this work. issue, but he is assiduous and he rightly acknowledged that we had given him as much information as possible. Question put and agreed to. We disagree on the interpretation of that information Resolved, and we will continue to do so, but he has certainly got That this House has considered the Munro Report and its his teeth into this subject. implications for child protection. 393 9 JUNE 2011 Cannabis and Psychosis (Young 394 People) Cannabis and Psychosis (Young People) Another parent wrote: Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House “George was our only son to turn to drugs. His addictions do now adjourn.—(James Duddridge.) began early—tobacco in junior school, cannabis in senior. At first we were in the dark but George’s hand was forced by events and 6pm we were informed. He was warned. However, nothing stopped him. His life and 2 marriages were ruined. The French wife Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Thank you, aborted their 2 babies—she could not cope with George in Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this tow—the dangers, the poverty, the filth, the dark, loving, violent, evening’s Adjournment debate. It is appropriate that my mesmeric personality he had become. George asked me to drive debate follows an informative debate on child protection. him to the clinic and wept all the way in the car. I tried to comfort him but I ached for my unborn grandchildren. He knocked me Up and down the country, too many families are down a few times—he always apologised—George was such a suffering the torture of watching their children squander gentleman. He spent 2 years in a mental hospital. He was very their futures—bright children who have so much to live schizophrenic by now.” for ending up with so little. All too often, that is brought about by an addiction to skunk cannabis—a drug that Sadly, George is now dead. is ruining young lives. Let me read just two more stories to the House. Here I am not a clinician or a scientist, so I am not going to is the first: give a hugely exhaustive overview of the chemical content “Michael became noticeably unwell aged 16 in February 2003 of skunk cannabis. All I would say is that the THC— whilst on a family holiday. I found some cannabis in his room. Tetrahydrocannabinol—content of skunk cannabis is This was a shock as Michael didn’t even drink alcohol as far as now six times higher than it was in the cannabis of I was aware. His mood changes were almost immediate. Laughing the ’70s and ’80s: 18% compared to 3%. The CBD— one minute, crying the next. He spent all day in bed and had no Cannabidiol— content of skunk cannabis, which is the energy, no motivation. By December 2003, Michael was sectioned under the Mental Health Act. It was the worst day of my life—he bit of the chemical that counteracted the psychotic cried for his parents and had to be held down. He just screamed—it effects of THC, has now been removed from the drug. was heart-rending. After being there for 3 months, he was discharged. What we see is young people suffering as a consequence. I thought this was the end, it was unfortunately the beginning of a It is believed that skunk cannabis works by releasing road that I would not wish on my worst enemy. It is like Russian dopamine into the brain, which creates a sense of euphoria, Roulette who becomes psychotic.” but it also has many side-effects—hallucinations, delusions, Nine years later, the torture continues for that family. paranoia, attention impairment and emotional impairment. The problem is that young brains do not properly form Here is the final story: in adolescence; they do not do so until they are in their “We were a normal, happy, busy family with four children until early 20s. What the drug does in its simplest form is to our second child, 16 ½ became involved with a new group of open up gates in the brain that may never close again, friends and started taking cannabis. Within a very short space of or, if they do close, only partially. time, our happy, funny, healthy son turned into a screaming, paranoid, unhappy young man. He refused to go to college, If a youngster smokes skunk cannabis, at best their worked only occasionally, and became a violent thug. When academic performance will be retarded. So many teachers confronted, he would turn on us both physically and verbally, on have told me about young, bright children getting to a one occasion breaking his father’s ribs because his father had certain age and then their academic performance just intervened when he was threatening me. He would kick doors in, goes backwards—not slowly, but rapidly, as they go smash glass panels, destroy washing baskets, crockery, ornaments, from being at the top of the class, to the middle, to the etc. Our lives became a living hell. He has been clean from cannabis for a year now and is gradually rebuilding his life. He bottom and to not turning up in class at all. That is a still has flashes of paranoia, has no qualifications and will always tragedy; a young mind is a terrible thing to waste. have to fight to overcome his criminal convictions.” Too many young people suffer severe psychotic effects Those are harrowing stories, and they have been repeated linked to skunk cannabis. One in four of us carry a thousands of times across the country.Child and adolescent faulty gene for dopamine transmission. If a youngster mental health services across the country are dealing has that gene and smokes skunk cannabis, they are six with thousands of youngsters and adolescents who are times more likely to get a psychotic illness than the suffering from severe psychotic illnesses, and there is a average youngster out there. If both parents give them causal link with skunk cannabis. two of these genes, they are 10 times more likely to suffer a psychotic incident and suffer long-term brain For the past decade we have talked about harm damage. reduction, and we have an organisation called FRANK With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would that leads the educational process on drugs, but harm like to read a few tragic stories. In a sense, I am a voice reduction is not enough. There is no safe amount of for all those parents who cannot be here tonight. Here is skunk cannabis that a youngster can smoke. I do not the first: condone drinking, but a youngster can have a glass of “Our son was a normal, bright, outgoing, sociable boy and wine or a bottle of beer and suffer little ill effect, good at sports. He started taking cannabis at about 15 years old. although I would not recommend that young people do He experienced a dramatic change in personality at 23, which it. Taking skunk cannabis is like holding a loaded resulted in a major psychotic episode. In recent years, he has been revolver to your head and playing Russian roulette. You under psychiatric care and on antipsychotic medication, and has do not know whether you have the gene, and you do not not been able to keep down a steady job. He has been sectioned know when the gun will fire the bullet. Some people twice and remains under a community treatment order. His who become addicted to skunk cannabis end up with continuous use of cannabis has destroyed a fine young man who now has no ambition or awareness of responsibility. However, he such severe psychoses that they take their own lives. It is beginning to accept that the cannabis habit will lead to more would be interesting to know from coroners how many severe mental health problems. It is hugely distressing to watch young people who have committed suicide recently were this lovely boy turn into a complete stranger.” addicted to skunk cannabis. 395 Cannabis and Psychosis (Young 9 JUNE 2011 Cannabis and Psychosis (Young 396 People) People) Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I commend the however: it is a lot easier to repair a septum in one’s hon. Gentleman for raising a matter that could well nose than to repair a brain. Once our brain is gone, justify a full debate here or in Westminster Hall. In often the best pharmaceutical drugs in the world will Northern Ireland, we have seen a rash of suicides as not bring it back again—that is it. I have talked to a result of this very drug. Does the hon. Gentleman dozens of parents across the country who are facing up believe that the laws on drugs should be tightened? I ask to the fact that their children—the children they love, because what is happening in his constituency is happening and brought into the world and nurtured—now have no in mine, and throughout the United Kingdom. future but simply an existence to look forward to. I do not think that is good enough, and I do not want to Mr Walker: I am very interested by what the hon. settle for it. Gentleman says, but this evening’s debate is not about So here is my call to action for the Government: classification. A Health Minister will respond to it. please take this matter seriously. Skunk cannabis has However, classification might be a subject for another changed over the past 30 years. It is a major public debate here, and if the hon. Gentleman tables a motion health risk. It is robbing thousands of people of an for such a debate I shall certainly support him. opportunity to live fulfilled lives. I have worked with the For many young people, smoking skunk cannabis is Minister, and she has been fabulous up to this point, like holding a loaded gun to their heads. It might not and I am sure she will continue her efforts to get this kill them—they may continue to have a life—but if they topic higher up the Department’s agenda. suffer from severe psychosis or schizophrenia, it will not Finally, I want to pay tribute to my enormously good be much of a life. It might be just an existence. friend, Mary Brett, a former teacher who has worked for decades in the interests of young people and their The Government need to get to grips with this, but welfare. the problem is that law makers and the clinicians who advise them view cannabis through the prism of their 6.14 pm own experiences in the 1970s and 1980s, and, as I said earlier, things have moved on since then. The drug with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health which we are dealing now is highly toxic and highly (Anne Milton): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the dangerous. We must talk not about harm reduction, but Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) for raising an about harm prevention. issue that is not only important, but seems to be attracting We are responsible adults. I have had enough of the more attention in recent years. It was a pleasure to meet current trend of everyone trying to make adults children’s him and representatives of Cannabis Skunk Support, best friends. I am not my children’s best friend; I am Mary Brett and Jeremy Edwards. In part, this greater their parent—I am their father and I must guide them attention is down to my hon. Friend’s work and that of and have their interests at heart. That is the duty of the all-party groups on cannabis and children and on adults. We must not abrogate responsibility. We have to mental health. make young people aware of the risks they run if they I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend because smoke skunk cannabis. although he is always passionate, his passion for this issue shone through in his eloquent and, at times, moving I have an admission to make here tonight. I was the speech. This issue affects us all. We have been young beneficiary of very good drugs education at the age of ourselves and he was very open about his personal 14 and 15. I was educated in the mid-’80s. I have not experience. Many of us are parents and our children are lived a blameless life. There are things I have done in my growing up in an increasingly complicated world, and past that I am ashamed of and I wish I had not done, the problem cannot be ignored. but, as the Prime Minister said, everyone is entitled to a pass. There were many drugs, but the one drug I really Cannabis is the most commonly used drug in England did not touch was LSD, because I was told that if we today, and its use is particularly common among younger take LSD just once, we can have a bad trip and that can people. One of the big problems is that of perception. be the end; we may never return from that experience—the Many people see cannabis as benign, harmless, a throwback gate in our brain that opens up may never close. If we to the ‘60s—I am showing my age—‘70s or ‘80s, or a are lucky enough in our youth to survive using it intact source of artistic inspiration, particularly when compared as a whole person, we might in our mid-40s—as I am with other, harder drugs. That is a very dangerous now—be driving our children back from football practice misconception these days. For a start, when people talk and suddenly start hallucinating again. That terrified about the cannabis smoked 50 years ago, they are me. The idea that I could lose my brain and my future referring to something very different from that which terrified me, and ensured that at a time when LSD was we see on the streets today. rife in London I never—ever—touched it. As my hon. Friend mentioned, the most common form of cannabis used today is skunk, which is, on Drug education works, but we need to educate the average, about four times stronger than herbal cannabis, educators. They need to be aware of the research that the type with which some in this House might be shows a strong causal link between skunk cannabis, familiar. It does not take a leap of faith to understand psychosis and schizophrenia. As I have said, our health that regularly using cannabis of this strength could be trusts are full of young people suffering the consequences. very harmful indeed. It could result in dependence, for Families are being destroyed. example, or in the development of serious mental health I will conclude by saying just a few more words. In an side effects. Those can be both short and long term, and ideal world—let us have lofty ambition and strive for an can be devastating for anyone, including children and ideal world—I do not want any youngster to take drugs. young people, causing a host of problems, including It is not a good thing to do; it is not good for their family breakdown and debt, and the sort of tragic health, their future or their prospects. I will just say this, stories that we heard about from my hon. Friend. 397 Cannabis and Psychosis (Young 9 JUNE 2011 Cannabis and Psychosis (Young 398 People) People) [Anne Milton] psychosis and co-existing substance misuse. It will help providers and commissioners to ensure that services are Questions still do exist about just how strong the link appropriate for young people with psychosis and substance is between cannabis use and mental health problems, misuse problems. We recently published a mental health but there is without doubt a link—that much is certain. strategy to improve services for those who are affected Using cannabis can lead to serious problems, such as by mental health problems. The strategy focuses on the psychotic episodes and other mental health issues. In importance of improving the quality and productivity the case of young people, whose brains are still growing of services and on making efficiency savings that can be and developing, that is a particular cause for concern. reinvested back into the service to improve it still further. Any damage caused then could affect them for the rest Over the next five years, we will be putting around of their lives. The fact is that the best way to prevent £400 million into psychological therapies in all parts of damage like that is to avoid cannabis in the first place, England for young people who are dependent on drugs. but we are not stupid and we know that many people, Those therapies will include talking therapies, supported both young and old, will be put in situations where where appropriate by family interventions. This issue cannabis is offered to them, so we need to take some affects not only individuals but whole families. The very clear action. strategy will also address issues such as mental ill health The drug strategy that we published in December and homelessness. Currently, 24,000 young people access 2010 outlined action that we will take to prevent and specialist support for drug or alcohol misuse and the reduce the demand for drugs, by establishing a “whole figures are good—97% of them are seen within three life” approach to the problem. That involves breaking weeks of referral. However, we have to ensure that the the intergenerational paths to dependency by supporting quality of support stays high, so that every young vulnerable families; providing good quality education person who needs help is given what they need. We will and advice so that young people and their parents are continue to improve the quality of that support and to provided with credible information actively to resist make sure that it responds to the right people at the substance misuse; and, of course, intervening early with right time. young people and young adults. My hon. Friend mentioned The letters my hon. Friend read out were moving and the need to educate the educators, and it is important evocative. They demonstrate the human story behind that those giving support get continued support in their this problem. Child and adolescent mental health services work. have a part to play, but we need to do a great deal more. The latest data show that almost 9% of 11 to 15-year-olds We need to get the prevention right and we need to get reported taking cannabis in the past year. Although support in when those preventive measures have not that is a long-term decrease, it is still too many. Those helped. He talked about moving from harm reduction data show us two things: that the situation is improving to harm prevention and I could not agree more. We and that drug use is by no means normal behaviour need to ensure that young people grow up with the skills among young people. That is an important fact for they need to make what are sometimes difficult decisions young people to take on board. The Department for about the choices they face. Addressing legalisation is Education is taking action to maintain that decline. A not enough; we all know about the legal highs. What we review is going on into personal, social, health and need is for young people to make good decisions about economic education, which includes drug education, to the choices they face. I commend my hon. Friend and determine how schools can be better supported. Of those who have written to him on sharing those experiences course, schools are not the only setting in which we can with us today. undertake this sort of educational programme. I will Our position on cannabis use is clear: we will continue also be meeting the Minister of State, Department for to focus on young people because if they are protected Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central right from the start, they will be safer throughout their (Sarah Teather) to discuss these issues soon. lives. Not only will their mental health be safeguarded, My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne also but their exam results and social development will mentioned FRANK. Our drug strategy highlights the benefit, their future options will remain open and their important role that FRANK has to play in providing chances will remain bright. It is terrible to hear about information and advice, both to young people and to young people who are struck down by poor decisions their parents or guardians. A review of how FRANK is that are often made through ignorance. I am sure that used showed that the vast majority of young people position is shared by my hon. Friend and all hon. preferred accessing FRANK online. Based on that review, Members present. Let me assure him that his call for as I recently discussed with my hon. Friend, we are in action is being answered in full. I was pleased to hear the process of improving the FRANK service, making his complimentary remarks about me so far—I noticed it easier to use the website. We are also updating the the slight equivocation—and I assure him that I do not tone and style of its language, so that it is more relevant think he will be disappointed in the future. I will do all I to young people and provides them with the information can in my position to ensure that we do everything and advice they need in a way that is accessible and possible to protect the health of young people. provides clear messages. Question put and agreed to. We are also taking other steps to help people who already have a problem. In March, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence produced guidance 6.23 pm on the assessment and management of people with House adjourned. 141WH 9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 142WH

will come out of today’s debate is the breadth of Westminster Hall opportunity—the breadth of training providers and sectors that offer apprenticeships. All my hon. Friends Thursday 9 June 2011 are seeing that in their own constituencies and of course have the possibility of taking on apprentices themselves. There was a firm commitment right at the beginning [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] of this Government to providing significant funding —hundreds of millions of pounds—for additional BACKBENCH BUSINESS apprenticeships. That has been widened further. There have been significant efforts, led by the Minister, Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) who has been a champion of vocational employment— [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] That has been warmly Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting welcomed, as you can tell by the response from everyone be now adjourned.—(James Duddridge.) here, Mr Davies. 2.30 pm Let me run through some of the detailed figures. Nationally, there are many more apprenticeships now Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): It is a pleasure than there were in previous years. Locally, as far as to be here under your chairmanship for the first time, Gloucestershire and my own constituency of Gloucester Mr Davies. are concerned, we have seen a significant take-up of I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Minister has apprenticeships; there were about 30% more apprenticeships been able to find time at short notice to join us for this in 2010 than there were in 2008. The general picture is debate on a subject that lies at the heart of two of the therefore very encouraging. Of course, that is complemented greatest challenges for the coalition Government: first, by Government programmes to create, for example, how to increase growth in our economy and, secondly, 100,000 work experience placements and additional how to reduce unemployment and, in particular, youth commitments to help 10,000 vulnerable young people, unemployment. Today’s debate on the take-up of which I am sure all of us welcome. apprenticeships by small businesses is therefore critical. During the next few minutes, I will lay out the structure Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I pay tribute of the debate in which I hope that as many hon. to my hon. Friend for securing the debate. Does he Members as are here today—there are many—will agree that in addition to the number of apprenticeships participate. increasing, the type of apprenticeships available has First, I intend to touch on the present Government’s shifted under the present Government? The previous approach to apprenticeships in general. Secondly, I will Government left thousands and thousands of people in consider how successful that has been overall in the first the classroom; the present Government are committed year of the new coalition Government. Thirdly, I will to the provision of work-based apprenticeships. Does examine the relative take-up of apprenticeships by large, my hon. Friend agree that that is much better for young medium-sized and small businesses. I hope that in today’s and older people who are undertaking an apprenticeship? debate we will all focus to a large extent on businesses that are often described as micro-businesses—those Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right employing 12 people or fewer. Of course, it is relevant in what he says, although at some point in the debate we that all of us in Parliament are in effect small businesses should touch on the removal from employers offering ourselves, employing typically between three and five apprenticeships of the freedom to have the training people. I will come on to that aspect of the issue element provided in the workplace. The new rules require towards the end of my speech. Thereafter, I want to 30% of the time to be spent away from the workplace, consider the obstacles to small businesses in taking up which for some employers is not necessarily practical. apprenticeships, how we might overcome them, what My hon. Friend and others may wish to comment on the challenges to overcoming them will be and what that as the debate continues. aspects of Government policy would help the process. The National Apprenticeship Service has provided Finally, I will bring all that together in specific the key facts. There are now more than 85,000 employers recommendations. nationally offering apprenticeships in more than 130,000 The first question is the present Government’s approach locations, with almost 200 frameworks. That is highly to apprenticeships. The Government’s announcement encouraging. The statistics about employers who take immediately after the election last year that they would on apprentices finding that it is a worthwhile thing to provide 50,000 additional apprenticeships, followed up do are even more encouraging, with 80% agreeing that later by a further 75,000, making a total of 150,000 new apprentices make their workplace more productive, which apprenticeships, was warmly welcomed by all of us who of course is ultimately the test in terms of the business want to see business growth. That announcement sent a growth element of the equation. Some 83% of employers powerful message, especially to our manufacturing sectors, who employ apprentices rely on those apprenticeship that this Government are determined not only to talk programmes to provide the skilled workers whom they about rebalancing the economy, but to deliver by doing need for the future. something practical to help that to come about. The question for this debate is whether the take-up of Of course, apprenticeships today are not only about apprenticeships by small businesses is quite so encouraging. manufacturing. They are not the cliché of, on the one I do not have the range of national statistics to argue hand, hairdressing for women and, on the other hand, the case as strongly as I would like to today, but I am blokes in dirty overalls. They are about a much wider sure that the Minister will share with us some of the selection of opportunities. One of the things that I hope Department’s research. I know that the Federation of 143WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 144WH

[Richard Graham] Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I want to add some personal knowledge as someone who has had an Small Businesses has estimated that take-up by small apprentice since last October and as the owner of a businesses is only 8%. Anecdotally, in my own constituency small business. It is the cost that concerns small businesses. and my own county, it is true that it is much harder to What can the Government do to incentivise them to persuade a small business with fewer than 12 employees take on apprentices? We need to look at the cost to to take on an apprentice than it is to persuade, say, a employ one and the payroll costs. company with 100 employees. Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): to raise those points. The incentives—the carrots—to My hon. Friend is making a very important point. One encourage more small businesses are a crucial part of of the things that I have been trying to do in Halesowen the argument, which I will come on to. May I take the in my constituency is to work with the further education opportunity to congratulate her? She has helped a college to develop specific engagement programmes for number of us to take on our own apprentices, demonstrating small business to overcome the barrier that my hon. the local and national leadership that she is renowned Friend has correctly identified. I still see a very important for in her constituency. role for FE colleges in reaching out to the small business community in local areas. Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con) rose—

Richard Graham: Yes. My hon. Friend is absolutely The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong right to say that FE colleges have a critical role to play, Learning (Mr John Hayes) rose— as do some of the smaller, specialist training providers. A question for us all to consider—I am sure that my Richard Graham: I will give way in a moment, if I hon. Friend has done this in his own constituency—is may. It is interesting that so many hon. Members from the extent to which courses offered by further education the coalition side of the House are here today. They are colleges can be effectively tailored to the requirements firmly focused on the importance of apprenticeships, of small businesses. Quite often, some of the courses—this are leading by example and have their own experience is where the questions of the framework structure and as small business men and women. It is disappointing to the sector skills bodies come in—are fairly specific and see the complete absence of any representation from the technical, and small businesses often require an apprentice Opposition, apart from the shadow Minister, the hon. to take elements of a business administration course, Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden). elements of a marketing course and elements of other courses. So there is a question about whether there is an Chris White: I recently met the Warwick and Leamington adequate structure of training to cater for small businesses, branch of the Federation of Small Businesses. Skills but I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that further were an important issue that was touched on, but the education colleges have a crucial role to play. issue that caused most concern was the lack of information. Moving away from apprenticeships in general and Although I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees that it their take-up nationally, and coming on to the small would be good to have extra funding, the Government businesses sector specifically, I believe that there are just can do more to promote the apprenticeship training less than 5 million small businesses in the UK, of which agencies, as proposed by the FSB, so that businesses can more than 3.5 million have sole proprietors. An astonishing be more aware of the help that they could receive and statistic is that 97% of UK companies employ fewer the benefits for both themselves and the community at than 20 people, and 95% of them employ fewer than large. five people. That shows us that one of the key drivers in all our constituency economies is the extent to which Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. small companies that employ fewer than five people feel The situation in his part of Warwickshire is not dissimilar able to take on an additional person. to that in my own neighbouring county of Gloucestershire. Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): As a former The small businesses in the world of the bear and small business owner myself, I recognise the challenges. ragged staff have similar issues, which we will certainly For nine years, I wanted to get an apprentice, but I did come on to. not understand how to do so. The Government can play a proactive role in providing information to explain just Mr Hayes: I would not normally interrupt my hon. how easy it is to recruit an apprentice. My suggestion, Friend’s peroration, but he made a comment about the which I have raised on a number of occasions, is doing number of colleagues across the House who are taking it through the annual business rates bill. All the information on apprentices. Does he agree that it may be appropriate can be provided at a relatively low cost. to hold some kind of reception when we feel that we have reached a critical number, so that we can celebrate Richard Graham: That is an interesting suggestion, that, use it as a way of advertising the apprenticeship and one that I am sure the Minister will want to brand and send out a message that we are leading, as he respond to in due course. The idea of using the annual has described, by example? business rates bill as an opportunity to explain how simple it is to take on apprenticeships would, I think, be Richard Graham: I am grateful for the Minister’s widely appreciated. My hon. Friend the Member for remarks. He has brilliantly anticipated the climax of my North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) is right, and I was speech, which was to come a few minutes down the line. just about to come on to the question of education and The part of my speech that he may not necessarily have information. There is undoubtedly a gap that needs to anticipated, or will necessarily appreciate, is about the be filled. funding of the great celebration that I have in mind, 145WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 146WH which he has so kindly already agreed to host. He is a company set up in Cambridge. It grew not into an oak quite right to mention our own involvement in tree, but into ARM, which is a massive designer of apprenticeships. I will come round to that, because a computer chips. There are now more ARM chips in the number of hon. Members present will want to make world than human arms, and it is a huge success, their own points and contribute with their own work in growing from a small, garage-type company into a the field. FTSE 100 company that is transforming the world. Returning to the question of small businesses and their contribution to both our local economies and Richard Graham: There can be no better illustration collectively the national economy, I mentioned earlier of the acorn-to-oak analogy than the one given by my small businesses that employ fewer than five people and hon. Friend. We all agree that small businesses are the their contribution to the UK economy.Small and medium- future, that large businesses dominate the opportunity sized enterprises account for, astonishingly, almost 99% for growth in the private sector and that that is an area of all enterprises and almost half the country’s private on which we should therefore all focus. sector turnover. Therefore, the essential argument that I The Federation of Small Businesses data show that want to start with today is that we cannot underestimate only 8% of small businesses have taken on an apprentice the extent to which small businesses will be the drivers in the past year, and that is an area on which we need to of growth—or of stagnation, should the economy falter, focus. which we all fervently hope it will not, and believe it will not. The question that we have to debate is how we can stimulate, encourage and exhort small businesses to Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Like my hon. Friend think that taking on an apprentice is the right way the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), I forward. ran a small business for 25 years. At no stage during that time did it even cross my mind to take on an Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will my hon. apprentice; we just had this notion of bureaucracy and Friend give way? cost. The critical thing is to get the message out to the 92% of businesses that have not taken on an apprentice Richard Graham: I will give way with pleasure to my and to pass on the information from the 8% that have hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), done so successfully. That is the Government’s biggest now with his royal duke. challenge. Those businesses that have taken on an apprentice recognise the great value of doing so. Dr Huppert: I am afraid that the duke is not able to be here for various reasons. Does my hon. Friend agree that small companies now, particularly within the rapid Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. growth sectors, such as many of the high-tech industries He, too, has brilliantly anticipated some of the themes in my constituency, are the bigger companies of the that I want to bring up. He is right to focus on two key future? Is he aware that many small companies in my elements, one of which is administration and the second constituency, which receive support from the excellent of which is cost, which also brings in the crucial factor Cambridge Regional college, say that their biggest problem of value. Let us delve deeper into the question of is not about finding excellent scientists and people to bureaucracy or administration. There are perceptions work at that level, but about finding technicians who out there that taking on an apprentice is a time-consuming can do things? Is he also aware that a good apprenticeship business; those of us who have done so know that it is scheme at a high level is exactly what small businesses not. need to grow and become the large companies of the future? Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I commend my hon. Friend for his tremendous generosity in giving way Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is, as so often, so often. It shows the passion and support that there is exactly on the money with his observations about small in the Chamber for this debate. I also congratulate him businesses. It is quite true—the cliché of acorns growing on calling the debate. into oak trees is exactly what businesses are all about. Before I ask my question, I thought that I would give He and I, and others here today, can give strong examples my hon. Friend some good news. Many of us are of businesses that started with virtually nothing and no making a real difference in the area of apprenticeships one and have grown into great economic successes for within our own constituencies. Two weeks ago, with the our country. To use one illustration from my constituency, support of the NAS, I launched an Eastbourne initiative we have a successful hairdressing business that has now to recruit 100 apprenticeships in 100 days. That was expanded into other constituencies in Gloucestershire, 17 days ago. I got a call yesterday from the training and which I believe is advancing on Worcestershire as providers to say that we have hit 103. I am now going well. Blushes is now a company with a multi-million back to Eastbourne to say that I want 200 apprentices pound turnover and multiple sites, and it is driven by in 100 days. That demonstrates the real hunger that is the recruitment and mentoring of successful apprentices. out there for apprentices from both small and large Small businesses are undoubtedly, as I am sure all hon. businesses. Members present will agree, the foundations of tomorrow’s businesses. The purpose of taking on apprentices for My hon. Friend used to be a colleague of mine on the small businesses is precisely to help businesses achieve Work and Pensions Committee until he was promoted growth. to grander things. He will know that the Work programme, which was launched by the Department for Work and Dr Huppert: My hon. Friend’s acorn-to-oak-tree analogy Pensions, is an enormous, costly and laudable effort to was so good that I should highlight that one of the help people into work, but it appears somewhat companies that I was thinking of was Acorn, which was disconnected from the Department for Business, Innovation 147WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 148WH

[Stephen Lloyd] Minister to ensure that all Departments focus on how we can create jobs and take on people, whether through and Skills, which runs the excellent apprenticeship apprenticeships or full-time employment? programme. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would make sense for both programmes to link up, so that we Richard Graham: I am grateful for that intervention, can improve job opportunities for everyone? and I am sure that the Minister will have noted that point and will come back on it in due course. Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. May I advise Developing the themes of our debate today, we now Members that interventions should be brief? have to consider the obstacles that small businesses face in taking on apprentices. I have touched on the two key Richard Graham: I am grateful for your remarks, areas of bureaucracy and cost. On bureaucracy, the Mr Davies, not least because my capacity to absorb all challenge for those of us who want to promote the points at such rapid fire is limited. My hon. Friend apprenticeships is that there are so many different ways has rightly congratulated his local paper in Eastbourne of taking on apprentices. For example, it is generally the for promoting the “100 apprentices in 100 days”campaign, case that the training costs for 16 to 18-year-olds are which was first started in my own constituency by entirely funded by the Government and those for 19 to Gloucestershire Media. The citizen who originally launched 24-year-olds are half-funded by the Government. Members the scheme in 2010 is now involved in a second one, will find in their own constituencies that we have training which is similar to the one that my hon. Friend mentioned. providers who will provide certain training courses for The third scheme, which is not time-capped, involves 19 to 24-year-olds entirely free of charge. On the one 100 apprentices being taken on by companies that have hand, that gives the 19 to 24-year-olds a competitive never taken on apprentices before. Other Members, advantage, and on the other, it offers to small businesses including my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester the opportunity to take on a slightly more experienced (Mr Walker), who have had similar successes may wish individual at a lower cost than might be the case normally. to comment on other such schemes. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) The hon. Gentleman Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate mentioned two schemes—I think that one of them was Worcester News on its “100 apprentices in 100 days” for 16 to 24-year-olds and that the other was for 24 to campaign and volunteer to sign up one of the apprentices, 27-year-olds—but some people lose their jobs and who because all hon. Members should play a role in supporting have to retrain. Does he not think that opportunities such positive campaigns. Does my hon. Friend believe should be given to those who want to diversify into that the media has an important role in promoting the other jobs? Should they not be given apprenticeships as breadth of apprentices, and does he think that we well, even if they are past those ages? should urge other hon. Members to use the media in promoting the jobs that are available for apprenticeships? Richard Graham: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point about the ways in which we can get Richard Graham: My hon. Friend and near neighbour people back into work. The Work programme is starting is absolutely right to congratulate the media in Worcester this week. I am sure that he is already in touch with for taking forward the scheme. I congratulate him on both the contractors and sub-contractors in his own making his commitment to take on an apprentice himself. constituency. Working closely with those who are rolling When I outline the target that I have set for Members of out the Work programme offers the best chances of Parliament, the Minister should note that we may be getting older people back into the workplace. What we able to achieve it in fewer than 100 days, but I will deal are really talking about today is apprenticeships that with that towards the end of my speech. are focused specifically on the 16-to-24 age group. I My hon. Friend is right to say that the media has an acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s general point, but important role to play. I should also stress that local I think that it ranges wider than today’s debate, although radio can be extremely helpful, too. About six months the Minister might want to comment on that. ago, I held the Gloucestershire apprenticeships fair, I will return to the obstacles for small businesses and jointly with the NAS, which is admirably represented in quote from the NAS in Gloucestershire, which works Gloucestershire by my friend Gina Johnson whom I with hundreds of SMEs on a daily basis. We know that was hoping to see here today. We had terrific support the definition of an SME can include businesses that, from Gloucestershire Media, which is something that on a constituency basis, are really quite large. Companies could be replicated in Worcester, Eastbourne and elsewhere, employing 250 employees are big employers as far as I and from Radio Gloucestershire. I strongly recommend am concerned, but they are categorised as SMEs. One my colleagues in the House to organise an annual of the challenges for the NAS, which is resourced by apprenticeship fair; the national apprenticeship week is one representative per county, is to engage with the in February, which would be quite a good time to do so small businesses that we are discussing today, which if they want to tie it in with national themes. would technically be called micro-businesses. I do not My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne also use the term “micro” because I do not think that mentioned the co-operation between DWP and BIS. companies enjoy being called “micro”—they do not That is an inter-departmental question on which I will relate to that word. We are talking today predominantly leave the Minister to comment in due course. about companies with fewer than 12 employees. The NAS in Gloucestershire has spoken to more than Julian Smith: Inter-departmental issues are coming 15,000 small businesses in the past five months. That is up in the Government’s review of employment law at an astonishing achievement, and I pay tribute to its the moment. May I ask my hon. Friend to urge the hard work in spreading its tentacles so widely among 149WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 150WH small businesses in our county. Its experience has shown offered for a limited period of three months, 5,000 that it has been able to spread the word about unemployed 16 to 17-year-olds were taken on during apprenticeships and their role. that time. As hon. Members have said, the role of the media It is right to ask ourselves whether that incentive was and further education colleges has also been critical in entirely motivated by a long-term solution for youth spreading the word, but it can be very difficult to reach unemployment or by a short-term concern to keep businesses of the size that we are discussing today. teenagers off the unemployment statistics in the run-up Many people to a general election. It is also right to ask whether cash “simply don’t have the time to come out of their businesses” incentives for taking on a first apprentice, without necessarily a time commitment on how long that apprentice to attend events. Such companies—often one man, one will work, will always generate good long-term results, woman or a family working together—do not have the or whether that is a very short-term way to enhance sort of people who typically sit on the committees of small business profitability without necessarily leading their local Federation of Small Businesses. We are fortunate on to career opportunities for 16 to 17-year-olds, but it if we can persuade them to come to an event, a lunch or is something on which perhaps the Minister might a supper to discuss topical issues. comment today. There are some breakfast clubs for very small A slightly different thought offered to me by the businesses—I have certainly been to them, as have other chairman of the FSB in Gloucester was to look at ways hon. Members. They are quite good at doing business- to subsidise apprentices over a three-year period. For to-business with each other, but the process of filling in example, when a company takes on an apprentice for forms, searching on websites, discussing with training the first time, a percentage of the amount paid by the providers and working out whether to go to the further employer could be reimbursed by the Government at education college or a more specialist training provider the end of the first year. A smaller amount would be is quite time-consuming for people who are dealing reimbursed in the second year, and in the third year all with customers minute by minute in their shops. the cost would be absorbed by the company. That is a To try to ensure that very small businesses get the slightly different and more interesting model to look at, opportunities to incorporate apprenticeships into their were the Government able to offer financial compensation companies, the Department and the NAS are therefore for some of the employment costs of taking on new supporting projects among group training associations apprentices for small businesses. and apprenticeship training agencies. In response to a Other ways to help small businesses to take on apprentices letter that I wrote him, the Minister highlighted that could be considered. One of them could be to rationalise “recently, Group Training Association and Apprenticeship Training the training costs for 18 to 24-year-olds as well as 16 to Agency models have been proving successful in making it easier 18-year-olds. The Government have previously differentiated for small business to take on apprentices.” between the two age groups on the basis that getting I hope that the Minister will share some examples of people started is the most important thing and that, by those successes with us, whether they are geographical the time people are 19 to 24, they should have more or sectoral, and share with us how we can help him to experience and more maturity to offer employers. But promote GTA and ATA models in our own constituencies, we know that that is not always the case. Some 19-year-olds as a way of helping small businesses to overcome the and older people might still need considerable investment apparent obstacle of administration. of time and effort by very small businesses to bring It is true, for example, that the South West Apprenticeship them to a stage where they can contribute to the growth Company in my own constituency is able to provide the of that company. The cost of that investment in time is legal ownership of apprentices taken on by small businesses as important to the smallest companies as the financial should there be future employment law concerns with cost of paying apprentices for however many hours a an apprentice who has not worked out. Many of us will week they are employed. know that the business of finding the right apprentice is the single most important thing and often a very hard Esther McVey: I totally agree. If there is one thing thing for a small company to do. As far as employment that small companies have told me about the hurdles to law is concerned, ownership of the apprenticeship is taking on apprentices and about why they want incentivising with the training provider, which can be enormously to do so, it is that the hidden cost of spending time with helpful to small businesses. a person, bringing them on, encouraging them and The next stage covers what sort of carrots might be making them work-ready cannot be underestimated. offered to very small businesses as part of the incentive to take on an apprentice. I start from the presumption Richard Graham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that if we were all able to persuade half the small making that point. She has direct experience of these companies in our constituencies to take on one apprentice things, as do so many Members here today. It is absolutely each, we would have solved the youth unemployment true that the smallest companies’ greatest fear on the problem in this country by that step alone. The opportunity, administrative or bureaucratic side relates not necessarily if we were able to seize it, would be enormous. The goal to the paperwork involved in filling in an application would be considerable, so how can we get closer to form or designing an advert, but to the fact that a huge achieving it? We could consider two or three things, the amount of time and effort may be required, hour by first of which is to provide a financial incentive. In hour and day by day, to manage the apprentice. The March 2010, there was an apprenticeship grant for worry is that the investment that will need to be made employer scheme—AGE—which gave a straightforward over a year or two before the apprentice can make a cash amount of £2,500 to employers taking on their significant contribution to the business may not be first apprentice. As a result of that incentive, which was rewarded at the end of that time because the apprentice 151WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 152WH

[Richard Graham] Two weeks ago, I presented certificates to people on an apprenticeship course in a large distribution company might leave, might be recruited by somebody else or in my constituency. I asked the gentleman in charge of might not be able to deliver the return that the small recruiting apprentices how he did it. He explained that business is looking for on its investment. he took all the people who applied, and who had not I want now to raise a few of the points that the FSB been ruled out because of a criminal background, on a has raised with me, which it believes are relevant to the one-day induction course in his warehousing company. promotion of apprenticeships in the smallest businesses. He made a point of having an escorted walk through On the promotion of ATAs to help small business, one the company, which was led by a manager who explained advantage of such agencies is that they would employ the business as the group went through the various the apprentice in the same way that the training company parts of the company. A lot of candidates were ruled I mentioned in my constituency does. The ATA would out early on because they simply were not paying attention deal with issues such as employer compulsory liability or contributing. When the group sat down later for a insurance, and help of that kind with modern administrative PowerPoint presentation on the business and what it requirements would be useful. was trying to achieve, some of those at the back of the room were texting on their mobiles or BlackBerries— On skill recognition, GTAs could provide an effective something, Mr Davies, I am sure would never happen in route for solving the problem I raised in answer to the this Chamber. In effect, there was a series of soft point about tailoring the training of apprentices to hurdles, which, by the end of the day, had reduced the companies’ requirements. GTAs might well be able to number of candidates from about 40 to 15. help design new training programmes for specific companies to meet their requirements. Component manufacturers The vast majority of our teenagers do not realise how in the engineering sector, for example, which are an important such things are and what an impact they will important employer in my constituency, may have more have on their job opportunities. There is therefore a concerns and requirements regarding training than we duty on us all as constituency MPs, and possibly on the realise. There might be small businesses out there that National Apprenticeship Service, to ask employers to need something like a GTA to help them design the lay out in schools, before teenagers leave after their appropriate training course. GCSEs or A-levels, exactly what is involved in getting a job, because it is not just about writing a CV. The NAS Perhaps I can bring that point alive with an anecdote. and the Department for Education could do something In my constituency, we have two makers of high-quality on that. The Minister wears the hats of two Departments, shirts; in fact, when I made my maiden speech in the and he might want to comment on the way in which the House last year, I was delighted to be wearing a shirt Department for Education could co-operate more with made in Gloucester. Their shirts are made from high-quality employers to promote apprenticeships for businesses English cotton and sometimes cotton from abroad. and, indeed, for small businesses that decide to take They are made in England, but one of the firms is them up, so that school leavers really understand the increasingly taking on workers from Poland, where challenges ahead. there is a high-quality sewing qualification. People arriving here with that qualification can immediately be put on the factory floor to contribute to the making of high-quality Mr Hayes: Given the interest in the subject, it might English shirts. It appears that this country does not yet be helpful if I dealt with that point now. Yesterday, in have a similar qualification, which could easily provide the Select Committee on Education, I was able to the basis for a new form of apprenticeship with shirt advertise the fact that, given my responsibilities in the manufacturers in my constituency and elsewhere. Department for Education, I want to work with Lord Hill and others to encourage much greater engagement I have also touched base with the British Chambers between the world of work and the world of learning by of Commerce, and it is important to recognise its remarks bringing employers into schools and letting people know on the take-up of apprentices among small businesses. about the employment opportunities available to them. It believes that there is a case for better marketing to My hon. Friend can rest assured that we are on the case. businesses of the resources that are available to them and of the benefits of apprenticeships. If we follow the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for North Richard Graham: I am grateful to the Minister; it is Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), such issues could be covered extremely helpful to be aware of that. He will have in what would, effectively, be a marketing flyer. Indeed, heard me say before—others may wish to comment on it could be designed by the company that he used to run this in due course—that I ask every apprentice I meet in in Swindon. That could be done at very low cost—possibly my constituency how much help they got from their even pro bono—and the Department could distribute schools in winning their apprenticeship, and nine and a the details with information on business rates. half times out of 10, the answer is nil, so we have a long way to go on that front. The British Chambers of Commerce also wants to place greater emphasis on the relevant agency sifting Let me bring together some of the threads in the through candidates to find the right ones, rather than debate. We have covered the Government’s welcome simply box-ticking. It says that small businesses have commitment to see a vastly increased number of apprenticeships, and the Minister will confirm the figure “a greater fear than larger companies of the wrong candidate”. of 150,000 additional apprenticeships, with 450,000 From my own experience, I know that finding the right overall during the lifetime of this Government. We also candidate and spending time taking them through an touched briefly on the greater take-up of apprentices, induction programme before offering them a job, which particularly by large and medium-sized companies across is difficult for a small business, will be increasingly the land in a variety of sectors, and the welcome pick-up relevant. in manufacturing, which has certainly driven forward 153WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 154WH the number of apprenticeships, for example in the crucial When I was 15 years old, with no O-levels and engineering sector. I am delighted that the Gloucestershire without even passing the 11-plus, I left secondary school Training Group, a specialist engineering organisation in to become an apprentice craft engineer. I studied at my constituency, is now overbooked with new apprentices night school for three nights a week until I was 25, and for next year. I am working with the group to try to finished up with two higher national certificates. Those achieve new and larger premises to cater for that demand. are the type of jobs that we need now. We have stacks of We also covered the take-up of apprentices by small young people leaving university with higher qualifications businesses. Both the statistical and anecdotal evidence but in engineering we do not have the people coming is that it is a great challenge for this, or indeed any, through to make the products that the academics and Government. We have looked at some of the factors the people from university design. that could encourage and incentivise the smallest businesses to take on apprentices: administrative and bureaucratic Justin Tomlinson: I commend my hon. Friend for questions, cash incentives, and cost reductions, possibly making that point, because the statistics show that through wider training funding for older apprentices. those from apprenticeship schemes have a much better We touched briefly on the role of GTAs and ATAs, and chance of securing full-time permanent employment I am sure that the Minister will want to say more about than graduates. that. We have looked at the role of local media and at the feelings of the FSB, the BCC and some Members’ constituents. Gordon Birtwistle: My hon. Friend is correct. Anyone who has a skill in running, programming and setting The last part of my speech is about what we as MPs computer-controlled machinery will never be out of can do. I talked about how we can be champions of work. In fact, in Lancashire, there is a big demand for apprenticeships, both in general and more specifically such people, and some companies are paying golden for smaller businesses. I mentioned the role of apprenticeship hellos to steal operators from other companies. fairs and having a specific sectoral focus. I have organised a job fair, which will have a large apprenticeships element, In Burnley, on 20 June we are having a manufacturing for the black and minority ethnic community in Gloucester summit at the brand new £100 million college, which is in 10 days’ time, and there will be something similar for linked to a university that is also involved in advanced those with disabilities in due course. There is a large manufacturing—that is a small advert for what we hope amount we can do, but there is also one specific thing. to do. I am pleased to say that the Secretary of State for There are 650 of us in Parliament, and if we each took Business, Innovation and Skills will be there, as will the on an apprentice, that would be 650 additional managing director of Boeing UK, the chairman of apprenticeships. Some of my hon. Friends here today AgustaWestland and many other big manufacturers, have already done so or, like my hon. Friend the Member along with smaller manufacturers from north-east for Worcester (Mr Walker), are committed to doing so. Lancashire. The event is about getting big and small manufacturers to come along to listen to the Secretary If 100 MPs took on apprentices, it should be celebrated of State, but we have also asked local schools to give in Parliament with a reception, perhaps generously presentations and to bring students to listen to people funded by BIS, with a welcoming speech to all the in the industry, with a view to taking up apprenticeships. apprentices by the Minister who champions their cause so doughtily in Parliament and elsewhere. That would At Business, Innovation and Skills questions this send a message across the land that we are not only morning I asked about careers. It is vital that we instil in talking the talk, but walking the walk in finding our young people long before they reach 15 or 16 what the own apprentices and, as small business people with prospects in the work force are. Careers officers talking fewer than 12 employees, promoting apprenticeships. to young people at 12, 13 or 14 is important, because That is an exhortation to my colleagues, but it is also an once they get to 15 and 16 it is too late for them to advance call on the Minister’s funding, to which I hope change their mind about becoming a doctor, vet, solicitor he will respond warmly. or barrister. They cannot have some careers because they do not have the qualifications, and cannot move I hope that today we send a message around the into the subjects that might interest them in becoming country that the Government are committed not only apprentice engineers or entering manufacturing. to increasing the number of apprenticeships, important though that is, and to highlighting their value in driving Burnley is one of the best places in the country for forward the future growth prospects for our businesses, job vacancies. I spoke to the regional director of Jobcentre vital though that is, but also to stimulating the smallest Plus, who told me that Burnley is one of the country’s businesses in the land each to take on an apprentice, brighter lights because vacancies have gone up by more because that will both help their growth and serve their than 30% since this time last year. That is a great result, community by helping to reduce youth unemployment. but the vast majority of vacancies are for skilled manual workers, and the big problem is that we do not have a pool of out-of-work skilled manual workers. My son, 3.24 pm who owns an engineering company, tells me that if a skilled worker is out of work now, he is no good and he Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I congratulate my will not be taken on. That is the situation, so we need hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) people to replace those who are retiring. It is critical on securing this important debate for Westminster Hall that apprentices come through to do the craft jobs, and today. He has covered most of what I was going to say, work on machines for the products that go into advanced but I would like to make a few comments about my manufactured items such as jet engines and components experience in the manufacturing industry and with for the nuclear and oil industries, where we are world apprenticeships. leaders and sell across the world. 155WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 156WH

Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): It is a matter of training someone to run it. It is important that companies concern, particularly when I visit manufacturing businesses think of apprentices as an investment for the future, in my constituency, that the employees have an average because without them they will not have any staff for age between 45 and 60. Is that not a worry? the future to make their product of the future, and the profits of the future will disappear. Gordon Birtwistle: I agree. That was to be my next The Government need to carry on with what they are point. A company in Burnley called Aircelle makes doing. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester, thrust reversers for the Trent jet engine. Three years ago I am extremely disappointed that we have not seen the company employed 350 people; it now employs anyone from the Opposition here today. That is a big 800 people and has work for 15 years. Aircelle has been disappointment because this is a big issue. They often offered work from Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, go on about it in the House, yet when we have a debate but has to turn it away because it does not have the skills. like this they cannot be bothered to turn up. Having I used to work for the company when it was called said that, I hope that the coalition Government will get Lucas Aerospace, which was a long, long while ago. I on with it and complete the course. walked around the place, and I said to the managing director, “I look at some of the people here and I 3.33 pm remember them working here when I did, and I’ve been retired for three years. Some of these guys must be Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Thank you, coming up for retirement.” He replied, “The age profile Mr Davies, for allowing me to make what I hope will be is a big concern because more than 80% of the work a short but important contribution. force is 40-plus.” I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester Another big problem for the company is that young (Richard Graham) on securing this extremely important people coming into the industry want to be designers debate. He has made a positive, well-thought-out and and technicians, working on computers on the other comprehensive contribution, which goes to show just side, and the guys who put the aircraft engine parts how much he cares—as, it seems, do a number of together are in short supply. It is a problem getting Government Members—about this extremely important skilled fitters and process workers to come and do the subject. job. The company is now a world leader in composites, I also want to take this opportunity—I do not often but it is very difficult to get people to come and work on do this in my contributions to debates—to congratulate composite design and manufacture. Fortunately, it is the Government, and particularly the Minister, on grasping using a lot of young ladies to do that now; because of the nettle and backing apprenticeships in this country. the dexterity of their fingers, they are able to mould It will be an absolute honour to welcome him next things in carbon fibre. I agree entirely that this is an week to the excellent North Warwickshire and Hinckley issue that the Government must pick up. We must college in Nuneaton, where I am sure he will promote ensure not only that we train people to do the real top apprenticeships with the same vigour and enthusiasm jobs but that we train young people to come in and do with which he promotes them in the House. I am proud the jobs that involve physically making things. of that. As I said, at Burnley college we are having a I am proud to support apprenticeships, because it is manufacturing summit on 20 June. The council there apparent that they are extremely important. Some 80% has worked with the college. We spent £100,000 from of people who employ apprentices say that the workplace the working neighbourhoods fund, and three years ago is a more productive place as a consequence, and 81% the college put in a further £100,000 to buy three of consumers favour using a company that employs Mazak advanced machine tools. The hon. Member for apprentices. People of all ages understand the concept Worcester (Mr Walker) will know of Mazak because of an apprenticeship and, importantly, it is an excellent the company is based in his constituency. The college vehicle for getting young people into a proper career. ran an engineering course but could not get anyone to Bearing in mind the importance of tackling the huge go on it, but as soon as we put in the Mazak machine problem of youth unemployment in our country at the tools the course was overwhelmed, because young people moment, I will focus my comments on younger people. see that they can work in an office and a workshop and It is a real pity that that problem was not properly design a product, go on a computer and feed the design recognised by the previous Government, who presided into the machine, and then make the product on the over a huge increase in youth unemployment and a new CNC—computer numerical control—machine. They huge increase in the influx of foreign labour, which can see that it is a great job for the future. The days of filled the skills void that we had when the economy was what I call the garage on “Coronation Street” with in better shape, leaving thousands of our young people engineers in blue overalls with oily rags in their pockets on the scrap heap. I commend the shadow Minister for have long gone. his attendance here today, but it is a damning indictment of the lack of seriousness and enthusiasm on the part of Jim Shannon: They are all on three days a week. Opposition Members that none of them, apart from him, is here today. Gordon Birtwistle: Are they? They are very fortunate While extolling the virtues of apprenticeships we to be on three days. In some of the big companies that must also knowledge that not all is totally well in the make advanced products, food could be eaten off the proverbial rose garden. A large rump of employers in floor because it is so clean, and young people see that. our country consider apprenticeships inappropriate for An apprentice is an investment. Companies think their organisations. I have been looking into that and, nothing of spending thousands of pounds on a machine according to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and but will then worry about spending a few thousand on Development, 68% of companies say that that is the 157WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 158WH case. In some instances, those companies may be correct, barriers in the way only when absolutely necessary. We and there are a number of situations in which it is must also consider removing a great deal of the bureaucracy, wholly inappropriate for businesses to employ apprentices. including what appears to be a draconian reporting However, I suspect that in many others instances that is culture, that employers must undertake. Does the Minister not the case, and that there are many situations in which think that it is a healthy position effectively to bar apprentices could be taken on. Employers and business youngsters from taking on many part-time jobs? Does people view most things on the basis of risk, and they he not agree that we should free up regulations in a take a view looking at the particular risks of taking on sensible way? younger people and at the barriers to employing apprentices and to developing their talent. Gordon Birtwistle: I had occasion a couple of years I want to highlight two issues in relation to risk. First, ago to question some young people about what they employers see a risk in taking on a young person who is wanted to do when they finished school. One of them untried and untested in the workplace. As Members of said that he wanted to be a benefit claimant. Does the this House, we need to acknowledge that although hon. Gentleman think that working part-time for somebody many young people take to the working environment might take that idea out of that boy’s head and help him like a duck to water, many do not, as my hon. Friend the change his view, so that he wanted to go into work Member for Gloucester has mentioned. rather than being a benefit claimant for the rest of his life? James Morris: My hon. Friend is making a series of powerful points. On young people not being ready to Mr Jones: I totally agree. That is part of the problem, take up apprenticeships in small businesses, it is important which my hon. Friend has highlighted. There is a culture that we consider the potential role of the voluntary in certain parts of this country in which work is frowned sector. For example, the YMCA and other organisations upon. I am glad to say that we now have a Government enable young people to develop skills before they take who want to get this country and our young people up apprenticeships, which is an important part of the working and create a culture of work, rather than one mix. in which being kept—staying at home and collecting benefits—is a job choice, not a safety net. Mr Jones: As usual, my hon. Friend has made a pertinent comment, which brings me on to my next That brings me to the other risk that employers in my point. Useful work experience can be obtained in voluntary constituency tell me about, which concerns employee organisations. Similarly, I am a firm believer in part-time retention after several years have been spent training a work, in which I was active in my younger days, particularly young apprentice. Obviously, the costs of that training when I was at school and college. Part-time work is are borne by the Government, in the main, but there are invaluable to young people in developing soft skills—my also costs to the employer in training people on the job. hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester mentioned that Employers are concerned that a young person will come earlier—and in relation to integrating into and learning in, serve an apprenticeship and leave. In certain trades, about the workplace environment, which, to be perfectly including the craft trades such as bricklaying, plumbing frank, is completely different from a school or college and so on, people can quickly set up as self-employed environment. Young people going into a workplace are workers, and employers are concerned that they will not dealing with teachers or their peers; all of a sudden, invest their time and money in training young people they are working with people who have been involved in who will either get a job elsewhere or set up on their the industry for many years and are not accustomed to own. We must address that, whether through an incentive somebody fresh and green from a school environment. scheme for employers or by other means. We must do all We must acknowledge that opportunities for part-time that we can to encourage employers to take people on work for our young people, although important, are and overcome those risks. extremely limited. Although I acknowledge that we We need to consider the barriers to career progression must do all that we can to keep our young people safe that make things more difficult for employers, particularly and ensure that they are not exploited in any way, we those who have younger employees. That was highlighted must consider the regulations that many employers face to me on a visit to MES Systems in my constituency, when employing youngsters part-time, which go far which has two fantastic young apprentices whom I met. beyond health and safety. I received a useful briefing on One of the apprentices had just finished his time and employing children from the House of Commons Library, had qualified as an installer of security equipment, but and I was astounded by the number of regulations that unfortunately that young man will have to spend this it contained. I would be surprised if many employers coming year working for somebody else, not because he knew those regulations. If they did, it would frighten cannot do the job independently but because the company them to death to take on any young person part-time. could not get insurance on the van that he needed to For example, the document states that young people drive to get around independently. That is a major may not deliver milk or work in a butcher shop. When I impediment not only for the young person who is not was that age, many of my peers did such work. I getting the experience of working independently but for delivered milk with the Co-op milkman—I am not sure the employer, who knows that additional work is available whether the milkman should have allowed me to deliver but is hamstrung by the fact that that he cannot send a milk with him, but I went out and delivered it all the person out to do that work, allowing him to take on same. Many of my peers at school used to work for one another apprentice. That is the type of barrier that we of the local butchers part-time, and they gained invaluable need to think carefully about. experience. If we are to enable our youngsters to gain To touch on another constituency scenario, I spoke such invaluable experience now, we must ensure that we to the principal of a firm of accountants several weeks look carefully at the regulations to ensure that we put ago. The Minister will be glad to hear that he is looking 159WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 160WH

[Mr Marcus Jones] just a meaningful career, but, potentially, a business through which they can support the economy by employing to take on four apprentices as trainee accountants, but I a number of other people. am sad to report that to date, he cannot fill those In conclusion, I urge the Minister to consider how we vacancies, which is a sad indictment of careers advice can give our small businesses far more confidence to and the link between employers, schools and FE colleges. employ apprentices and break down some of the prohibitive It is important for the Government to tackle that issue. barriers that I have mentioned. I am absolutely sure I hope that the all-age careers service will help with the that, if he does that, it will add great value and complement quality of advice that our young people get, so that they the sterling work that he is undoubtedly doing to give can have proper careers and receive independent advice our youngsters the skills to drive our economy not only based on getting a job rather than on trying to meet for today, but for the future. exam targets or school or college league table targets. To many youngsters, that is important, but to some it is not as important as getting straight into employment. 3.51 pm Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I congratulate Mark Pawsey: There has been pressure on young my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard people in recent years to go to university. I have teenage Graham) on securing this important and useful debate. boys who are very motivated to go to university, because We have already heard a great deal about the issue, and that is what their peer group does and that is what they I thank him for the huge amount of detail he has given have seen happen. It is the entire emphasis of our on the statistics associated with this important topic. I education system. Those with practical application who will not try to reinforce any of those points. are willing to get their hands dirty are discouraged or looked down on as not doing so well in life. Will my I agree with everyone else present that apprenticeships hon. Friend comment on how the Government can deal are important, and I want to look at three particular with that, and how a change in attitude might go some reasons why they are important. First, they provide way to stimulating more apprenticeships? an opportunity for school leavers to get into the jobs market. As we have heard, the Government—the Mr Jones: My hon. Friend has highlighted the flawed Chancellor announced this in the Budget—have presented ethos of the Labour Government and their target culture an opportunity for 250,000 more apprentices to gain of wanting to get 50% of our youngsters into university. relevant specific training over the next four years. That Although that has been useful for many of our young applies to youngsters who might otherwise struggle or people, and we should certainly not decry the importance be tempted to go to university. This point was developed of a university degree, it has led, as he has said, to a earlier, and I think that it is the case that the random culture where people frown on youngsters who have not target of getting 50% of school leavers to go to university gone to university, which has left those youngsters is based on no fact whatsoever. It has led to the emergence feeling dejected and undervalued. That is a poor position of a market among universities, whereby they sell degree to put ourselves in. courses for things that, frankly, might be better served by apprenticeships. To a certain extent, it is our job in To refer back to the comments made by my hon. Parliament to highlight the fact that, if someone wants Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), to be a photographer, there is no point taking a degree we need to fill the gap in the skills sector, and there are in photography when more photography graduates leave many younger people who would be better off taking university each year than there are jobs for photographers the skills route rather than going to university and in the whole of the European Union. It would be better perhaps doing a degree that is not necessarily recognised to get an apprenticeship as a photographer’s assistant by employers or that is not relevant to getting into the and learn the trade on the job. labour market. Secondly, apprenticeships are also an important Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is developing a opportunity for local businesses and small and medium- powerful case for the role of apprenticeships in general. sized enterprises, as we have heard. There is no doubt Does he agree that the statistic that 15% of employment that small businesses that are looking to further expand in the private sector is provided by sole proprietorships or to ensure their employee succession process will shows that if we were to persuade sole proprietors to benefit from apprentices who come in at the bottom end take on a single apprentice each, it would make an of their businesses. Apprentices can work from the enormous difference to take-up in the country as a bottom and grow to understand the business so that, as whole? they develop into managers of that business, they know it from a shop-floor level. Mr Jones: I agree with my hon. Friend’s important It is also important that a district can generate a local point. Another point is that many people who have skills set that meets the expectations of future employers. traditionally taken the skilled route and come from I am delighted that Wyre Forest—specifically southern small businesses have ended up as the entrepreneurs of Kidderminster—has been selected by the Worcestershire the next generation. They are the ones who have taken local enterprise partnership as the preferred bid for the forward their work for an engineering business, for LEP business expansion zone. That is incredibly important example, started their own business and employed a for my constituency. My constituency once had 20,000 number of others. It is important that youngsters get a people working in the carpet industry, which brought good grounding, whether that be by getting a good on many apprentices but now employs about 1,700 or degree at a good university or by going straight into 1,800 people—it is a much diminished area. In the employment and getting the right skills with an employer, district, 4.6% of local people are on jobseeker’s allowance, through an apprenticeship, which will give them not which is higher than in Worcestershire, and the area will 161WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 162WH benefit from having a business expansion zone. Although technology—indeed, one imagines that all space activities it is important that, if we are to attract businesses to are at the cutting edge of technology. At any given time, Wyre Forest, we do so partly through the business it employs about 40 apprentices. They are youngsters expansion zone, it is just as important that we have a who are bright kids, but in some cases they may have local skills set that meets the expectations of incoming low aspirations. In a few instances, the company finds businesses. It is incumbent on us locally to deliver those its candidate apprentices working in less than exciting workers and apprentices, in order to meet the expectations jobs, with, frankly, limited prospects of career progression. of those incoming businesses. Astrium takes them on, trains them up, gives them I was recently asked to open a new apprentice training higher education if they want it and gives them a career academy in Bewdley, one of my local towns. The TDM path and a future. Some 50% of their apprentices go to Wyre training academy offers a range of information university and half of those get first-class degrees. and communication technology training for apprentices Many end up with high office within the company and in the local community, either by taking on apprentices typically they stay for an average of 25 years with this from local businesses that already employ apprentices one company. but want to give them more specific training, or by Astrium and other high-tech companies take on taking on students and finding them apprenticeship apprentices for a couple of key reasons. First, companies places. My hon. Friend will be delighted to hear that I at the cutting edge of high technology have a unique am already talking to the academy to find out how my and focused skills requirement that they simply cannot office can best take advantage of that opportunity and fill with resources off the shelf. They have to train their employ an ICT apprentice who, even though he is an staff in specific ways. Secondly, they draw their apprentices apprentice, will no doubt be able to teach me a few locally, which provides not only a benefit to the local things about information technology, which I am a bit community, but a labour source that is loyal to the local of a muggins at. This is an organisation that recognises area. That reinforces the reason why they are so keen to the Government’s ambition and has reacted, as so many stay with the same company for such a long time. That do, to market demand. It and others have not only is important for career progression and for resource identified the need for training, but, as I have said, are progression, so that we know where the managers of the increasing the local skills set in my constituency, which future are coming from. With 95% of apprentices staying is absolutely vital if we are to attract new businesses. on for a significant time, that is a very important point. The Government-run NAS has recently started the I shall end on a slightly more sober note. I was 100 in 100 campaign, which, as we have heard, aims to recently at a meeting of the Worcestershire Association generate 100 apprenticeship placements in local businesses of Secondary Heads with, among others, my hon. Friend within 100 days. The NAS is looking for business leaders, the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker). Of course, we training providers and local media to work in partnership talked a great deal about education and what the to influence the local business community to drive up Government are doing on that and, obviously, we presented the number of apprenticeship opportunities locally. a very good argument for the Government’s sterling I am delighted that the Wyre Forest community work, as I am sure hon. Members can imagine. However, housing group has become an ambassador for the campaign at the end of the meeting, one of the heads asked the in Wyre Forest. The group has 35 placements for youngsters following sobering question: how can the Government and claims a high number of apprentices who achieve demonstrate that this generation of school leavers will nationally recognised qualifications and who stay on in not become a lost generation. My reply to him—this permanent employment in the group after their has been reinforced in my regular column in The apprenticeships have ended. Indeed, to demonstrate its Kidderminster Shuttle—is that, far from being a lost commitment, the group is using apprentice bricklayers, generation, this generation of schools leavers are at the carpenters, plumbers and electricians alongside qualified cornerstone of our country’s future. Their success will teams on all its new builds in Kidderminster. The determine our success as a country and as an economy. community housing group scheme is important, because Apprenticeships and the Government’s apprenticeship it draws its apprentices from a particularly challenging programme are a good example of how this Government area in southern Kidderminster. The area has about are delivering on that message. The Government recognise double the district average for jobseeker’s allowance the importance of our future generation of skilled claimants and about 40% of residents are economically workers, and they are absolutely committed to supporting inactive. I hope that the Minister will take back to his them, because, at the end of the day, business and skills Department that further reason for looking favourably are at the heart of the economic recovery. at the application for the Kidderminster business enterprise zone. 4.1 pm Thirdly, it is important to remember that businesses are also at the forefront of new technology. We have Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I congratulate talked about small and medium-sized businesses, but I my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard now turn to big business in order to illustrate the Graham) on securing the debate and thank him for importance of this issue. In my capacity as the vice- enabling us to discuss this important subject. chairman of the all-party group on space, I visited My father left school at 14. He benefited from an Astrium at the company’s factory in Stevenage. Astrium additional year at school, but he had very little in the is a global leader in the manufacture of satellites, and in way of qualifications and he served an apprenticeship addition to a tour of its Stevenage assembly plant, we for seven years before becoming a master plumber. I were invited to the award ceremony for its apprenticeship suppose that I served a kind of apprenticeship when I scheme. The company is about as high tech as it gets. It was articled as an accountant. Apprenticeships have manufactures satellites that are at the cutting edge of almost disappeared from the industrial scene. The value 163WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 164WH

[Mr David Ward] period of years. It was apparent that, for some of the young people on that project, getting out of bed before of them coming back can be found not only in the many lunch was an achievement, let alone having an things that we have discussed today, but in the concept apprenticeship where they were expected to arrive at of a young person’s commitment to achieving something half-past 8 and work through until the leaving time that specific and focused over an extended period. Of course, night for five days a week. The people on that project a business or an organisation must also show commitment were fortunate because those who were responsible for to sticking with an individual and seeing them through. running it had experience of dealing with young people in a difficult area. If someone on an apprenticeship did Mr Marcus Jones: My hon. Friend talks very powerfully not turn up at 8.30 am and perhaps came in at 10 am, about apprenticeships. He has mentioned some of the they would have probably lost their job. However, through history of apprenticeships and the apprenticeship that their knowledge of the young person concerned, Thorpe he went through, which was not unusual a number of Edge project supervisors knew that the young person years ago. Does he think that we need to change the concerned probably came from a background where culture, so that apprenticeships are far more valued? there was a lone parent or the person concerned was on Should we perhaps return to some of the older values drugs or suffered from alcohol abuse. In such circumstances, and have freemen of towns and cities and passing out simply getting into work at all was an achievement. By ceremonies, where apprentices go along to the city hall providing intensive support and help for some of those or town hall and receive their papers from the mayor or young people, the programme allowed them to get into lord mayor? college or employment. The focus of my comments is on those people who Mr Ward: There is a lot in that idea because the simply will not get those apprenticeships, however many concept of working towards and developing a skill—in placements we manage to generate and however many the old days, a craft—and a profession has been lost. placements the Government are willing to fund. Additional The idea of sticking with something and staying with it apprenticeships certainly offer a good alternative to the until a body of knowledge has been achieved or a future jobs fund or schemes of that kind in many cases, degree of experience or skill has been acquired has been but there is space for both types of programme. We lost over the years. I remember very clearly my father’s need schemes that benefit people who are employable small card showing that he was a master plumber. The and who will do well out of placements and people who importance of both an organisation’s and a young would struggle to get on to apprenticeships at all. person’s commitment perhaps ought to be recognised There is clearly a supply-side problem in many economies. more formally. I hope that the Minister will set out some of the We all welcome the Government’s drive to increase measures that can be used to address the shortage of the number of apprenticeship places, particularly in apprenticeship placements. A scheme in Bradford with areas of unacceptably high youth unemployment—for the local social housing provider in communities recently example, Bradford. In a couple of the wards in my received more than 600 applications for just seven constituency, one in eight young people are not in apprenticeship places. Evidently, demand is massively education, employment or training, and they are desperately outstripping supply. in need of some sort of future. It is perhaps unfashionable in some quarters to defend one of the schemes that is Other hon. Members have raised all sorts of issues still in operation but on its last legs: the future jobs about the barriers and why businesses are not willing to fund. However, I want to talk about the importance of take on apprenticeships, whether because of bureaucracy what has been described by others as getting people and red tape—we have mentioned some of those issues—or ready for apprenticeships and making sure that young because of a lack of awareness of apprenticeships, as people are employable in the view of those who wish to hon. Members said earlier. Many people who have been take on apprentices. in business for years might never even have considered offering an apprenticeship. We need to consider what is We need to be very careful not to throw away the happening in the schools and through the careers advice baby with the bathwater. The future jobs fund in Bradford service. We also need to recognise that in some communities, got off to a poor, bureaucratic and frustratingly slow certainly for small businesses, cost is an issue. We need start, but it did become a success, particularly with to bear that in mind. categories of young people who struggled to get into apprenticeships. It was successful both in getting young The Federation of Small Businesses has been quoted people into work and in giving them the skills and the a lot with regard to the implications for small businesses. work experience that it was hoped would help to them I understand that the Government have decided not to into employment long into the future. More than half extend an apprenticeship grant for employers that provided of young people on future jobs fund placements in some time-limited financial support for businesses. We Bradford did not return to benefits after 28 weeks. They still need to consider that as necessary for certain businesses, found some sort of career progression after, in many particularly small businesses, and in certain economies cases, pretty difficult young lives. A major criticism of with high unemployment and a small number of available the future jobs fund has been that a high proportion of opportunities. jobs were created in the public sector but, in Bradford, Let us not forget that although businesses receive around 75% of the placements were in the voluntary or 50% for post-19 and a full 100% for pre-19—I understand community sector. That is big society at its very best. that that might be extended in some cases—they still I should like to mention the Thorpe Edge project. As have to pay for the young person. For many small you will know, Mr Davies, that is a community furniture businesses in particular, that is identified as being the project that had 13 future jobs fund placements over a most important cost. An FSB survey identified that it is 165WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 166WH simply too costly to take on. Of all the reasons why they Mr Ward: I should like to conclude by coming back were not taking on apprentices, the fact that it was just to the focus of my comments. I think that the figure of too costly came out top. 8% was mentioned as the number of businesses who An FSB survey on skills identified that 66% of businesses take on apprentices. If we look at that figure, however, said that, with the right measures in place, they would the vast majority are small businesses. Those are the take on an apprentice. Those measures include a financial statistics. We know that the vast majority of businesses incentive for taking on an apprentice, greater clarity in are small businesses—the butcher, the baker, the candlestick terms of Government contributions to wage and training maker and so on. We want to fill the supply side gap. costs, and a separate body, interestingly, to manage the Yes, we want to get the big companies involved and that payroll costs. That has to be a way forward for many of in some ways that is relatively easy. If we are to provide our young people. at a practical local level experience and apprenticeships in small businesses, we need to consider some element For 20-odd years, I worked in a university. We have of wage subsidy. heard some comments about university today. I agree that it was wrong to specify a 50% target. For many Richard Graham: The figures back the hon. Gentleman young people, the message was that if they do not get to up. Some 3.3 million businesses have sole proprietors; university they have failed, and that closed up a lot of that is, 3.5 million people. That is 16% of all people in options. I also have tell hon. Members that, as someone business. One apprentice for a third of those would take who worked in a university for nearly 25 years in total, a million people into employment. many young people, especially towards the end, were there because they did not know where else to be. They Mr Ward: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those were there to find themselves and to delay a decision. comments, and for giving me time to look at my own They were there to gain something—a qualification, notes. which they hoped would be useful—but also to defer a The FSB has pointed out that two thirds of judgment on what they should do with their lives. apprenticeships are offered by small businesses. Of that 8%, the vast majority are in small businesses, so we have Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): Does the hon. a problem. Small businesses, certainly in areas of high Gentleman think that those young people found themselves youth unemployment, have been the main provider. after the three years they were under his stewardship? However, small businesses in those economies are struggling The fundamental issue, brought up by many hon. Members, the most and can ill-afford the cost associated with is that we do not start to talk about the world of work apprenticeships. I would argue that there may be a early enough. Many hon. Members have said that there case for businesses—small businesses in particular, in is an issue about education and schools. I have never areas of high unemployment, particularly high youth been impressed by the careers system and careers officers unemployment—to consider some element of wage subsidy across the board, either in my era or now. Does the hon. to enable those who will simply not otherwise get into Gentleman have any greater sense of confidence in the apprenticeships to be taken on by those businesses and careers system that mentors our young people? partly fill the gap that has been left by the withdrawal of the future jobs scheme.

Mr Ward: There are measures to improve the system. 4.18 pm It has failed in many instances. On getting information through to young people, I would add that the most Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): It is a important individuals for many young people as they great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. go through their education—a blinding flash of the I begin by congratulating, and not just in the customary obvious—are the teachers, not the careers advisers. way, the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) How many teachers have any experience of life outside on bringing an extraordinarily important subject to the of a school, whether in manufacturing, engineering or Chamber today. His speech had depth and breadth; it not being a teacher? was extremely expansive and dealt with many of the most important points. It is inevitable that the general I am concerned that we miss a trick if we focus on approach we take to apprenticeships is concentrated on developing the careers advisory service, recognising that the challenge we face in dealing with apprenticeships in it is a weak area that we could develop, without looking small and medium-sized businesses. Whether we call at the crucial issue of the experiences of the most them micro-businesses, sole traders or people who are influential characters in our young people’s education—the starting out on their own, the issue is magnified in that teachers themselves. Perhaps the Minister has something area. The hon. Gentleman has therefore done the House on that—it may not be his remit, I do not know—but and the Chamber a service by the breadth of his remarks. exchanges between business and schools are important. When young people consider what they want to do with The hon. Gentleman talked about apprenticeships their lives, they should be surrounded by people who not being to do with manufacturing alone, which is true, have experience of something other than going to university and under the previous Government that diversification or being in another educational setting. of apprenticeships, which is continuing, was important. The current Government have inherited that rising curve in apprenticeships, taken by the previous Labour Gordon Birtwistle: In Burnley, we have got the big Government from a base of 65,000 in 1997. The occasion local companies involved with mentoring students in is not one for trading loads of statistics or being partisan, schools for the future. Is that something that the Minister but it is incumbent on Members to remember that the will pick up, run with and expand across the country abolition of Train to Gain released to the present not only with big companies, but with smaller companies? Government a significant amount of money, some of 167WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 168WH

[Mr Gordon Marsden] Forest was particularly interesting and illuminating on his experience with the space company, which, in terms which they have chosen to use in the expansion of of where apprenticeships can take someone, I have apprenticeships, which we welcome. The challenge for found replicated in my own neck of the woods; a large all of us, in whatever position, is to ensure that the number of people in Blackpool work for British Aerospace expansion of apprenticeships is a success and continues. in one capacity or another. His reminder that it is a It is important to look at the elements of policy good idea not to make a false comparator—either continuity and, in particular, I pay tribute to the Minister apprenticeships or universities—was valuable. Whatever for how he and his colleagues have continued to support the value of higher level apprenticeships in their own Unionlearn. The routes into apprenticeship are many right, we ought to be putting far more emphasis on and varied, and we have heard today about some of ensuring that universities accept and look at vocational those ways and how some can be improved. Undoubtedly, qualifications, and take themselves through to that level. one of the best ways of persuading people into It is always a great pleasure to hear the hon. Member apprenticeships or taking up skills at whatever age is the for Bradford East, who is extremely knowledgeable and support, endorsement and encouragement of their peers. passionate in this area. I was glad to hear what he had In that respect, the work of Unionlearn has a great deal to say about his experience of the future jobs fund. It is to teach us, whether or not we are talking about unionised true that in many areas it was not simply public sector-led. environments. In the same way, many of the contributions The statistics for my area of Blackpool mirrored those this afternoon, in particular the last one, have stressed given by the hon. Gentleman. I vividly remember visiting the need for such a process to be understood across the Blackpool football club where six young people had board. been taken on under the future jobs fund, giving a The challenge we face is the one given to us by the similar success story. Federation of Small Businesses, with figures on numbers and take-up that people have quoted in some detail I make one more point lightly and in not too partisan today. Small businesses are crucial to growth. The hon. a fashion: I hope that hon. Members will see that the Member for Gloucester talked about that, and about previous Government never made a commitment or the importance of taking on GTAs. He and other objective about 50% of young people under the age of Government Members were somewhat sceptical about 30 going into university education. If we look at the the former future jobs fund, but although we live in a detail, we see that it was about some form of training or three-minute universe, they ought to remember that further or higher education. I make that point and pass their own Chancellor announced in the Budget earlier on, but I am proud of the work that the previous this year what some of us might regard as a pale Labour Government did to bolster apprenticeships and imitation of the future jobs fund. We wait to see how the apprenticeship system, making them an attractive that carries through. The hon. Gentleman made a valuable option for businesses of all sizes. As I said, the results point at the end of his speech about incentives. I was speak for themselves. particularly interested in the idea of the graduation of We set up the National Apprenticeship Service in incentives over a three-year period, which many of us 2009, as a national body playing a key role in overseeing are familiar with from commercial practice, not least in the apprenticeship programme, providing information hiring builders, and there is a lot to be said for that. to potential apprentices and helping to match them I congratulate other Members who spoke this afternoon. with employers. We also introduced national apprenticeship The hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) week. It is a pleasure to hear today from so many talked about the importance of peer endorsement in Members that they have taken advantage of the hook of apprenticeships and about the problem with skilled that week—throughout the rest of the year as well—to manual workers. Again, that is not a new problem but promote apprenticeships in their own constituencies. It one flagged up by successive Select Committees, and it is a good opportunity for doing that. was a key issue in the Leitch report, to which all parties subscribed. In my constituency, in February this year, my local The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) raised Blackpool newspaper, The Gazette, sponsored an issues about the careers service and the exposure of apprenticeship drive across the Fylde. I spoke at the young people to the working environment, which is also launch of the drive and supported it, and it reached the important. Again, it is not a new issue. Some years ago, sort of target figures of 100 to 150 apprenticeships, to when I was a member of the Education and Skills which reference has been made. In my work as a Member Committee, we went to two places in the United States of Parliament, I have seen the success of apprenticeships to look at training in schools, in Boston and North not only for very large companies such as BAE Systems, Carolina, which had good examples of training in units but also for small and local organisations. The Blackpool in a secondary school. In such a unit in North Carolina, Pleasure Beach has taken on a number of apprentices most of the young people—very much from a blue-collar successfully, as have many construction firms, or the background—subsequently got jobs with the Bell Telephone dental practice in my constituency that I visited this Co., which had sponsored the unit. There are some year, which has just taken on two apprentices. lessons for us in that, with interesting echoes in such Sometimes it is not easy for a Government of any hue ideas of recent years as studio schools or the university to persuade small and medium-sized businesses to look technical colleges, of which Lord Baker has been such a at apprenticeships. I know that from my own experience strong advocate. of running a small business with eight employees for I was delighted to hear the contributions of the hon. 12 years before I came into this place. I know, as no Members for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) and for doubt do many hon. Members who have spoken, about Bradford East (Mr Ward). The hon. Member for Wyre the multiplicity of factors and pressures on small businesses 169WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 170WH when they are trying to decide what to do: cash flow, initiative and customer service skills were less impressive. marketing, promotion, lease arrangements. The list gets There may be some messages there about the school longer every year. system. Of course there must be a receptive environment for The statistics from the Federation of Small Businesses, small businesses to take on apprentices, and they must as many hon. Members have said, are worrying for the believe that it is worth expending the time, but that reasons that have been described. It is particularly valuable raises big issues about the structure of apprenticeships, that the FSB not only provides such data, but regularly and whether they are sufficiently structured to be useful monitors attitudes and feedback from its membership. I to and easily accessible by small and medium-sized understand that the latest report is due out tomorrow, businesses. I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not and it will be particularly interesting given the current suggesting that we abandon the traditional apprenticeship fluid nature and uncertain prospects for growth. Similar structures to which the hon. Member for Bradford East statistics came from the CBI/EDI educational skills rightly referred. survey, which was published last month. It showed that apprenticeship growth is increasingly concentrated in My father undertook a traditional apprenticeship for large companies. a large company, Crossley Brothers, which is sadly now less well known than it was. It was a major factor in the That is on a par with the Government’s need urgently engineering world certainly into the 1960s, and to the to consider tailoring apprenticeships better towards the present day. Such apprenticeships have their value, but need of SMEs. It is a two-way process, which the we must also consider the new type of apprenticeship. Government must take on board and, with the National There are big decisions to be made and discussions to Apprenticeship Service, be alert to the changes and have about the value or otherwise of a modular approach, modifications that employers report. They must allow about delivery of apprenticeships on the job rather than employees to complete the course-based elements of outside at a further education college, and so on. Such their apprenticeships. I do not exempt further education matters must be taken into account when considering colleges from that process because, certainly in my neck what benefits will encourage small businesses to take on of the woods, it is important, particularly when bringing apprentices. in people who must do a lot of juggling with their work-life balance, that delivery of off-job apprenticeship Despite the Government’s announced additional course work is as close to their work or living place as investment in apprenticeships, many businesses still believe possible. that there are major deterrents. A City and Guilds survey—I was at its launch during national apprenticeship Laura Sandys: I was pleased to welcome the Minister week earlier this year—showed that 80% of employers to my local further education college, Thanet college, still believe that there are barriers to hiring apprentices, which has been extremely helpful and important to me and one in five believe that the current economic climate in the recruitment of an apprentice I have just taken on. makes it too risky to take on an apprentice. A couple of FE colleges are embedded in their communities, and other statistics are relevant to what hon. Members have play an important role as ambassadors for the apprentice said today. Just under half of employers would be system. They support employers who may not understand encouraged to have an apprentice if more Government the system effectively. Does the hon. Gentleman agree? funding were available per apprentice—whether that would be a deciding factor, of course, is always the key question—and 26% wanted the recruitment process to Mr Marsden: I absolutely agree. In my neck of the become simpler and less time-consuming. woods, Blackpool and The Fylde college has done sterling work in that area. There is sometimes an issue Those statistics are interesting, and have been about colleges understanding the need to deliver some supplemented recently by a major survey of 500 employers of their training closer to the workplace if possible and across the board, not just SMEs, by the Chartered closer to the living space if possible of the people they Institute of Personnel and Development. Its findings are trying to reach. are interesting and specific, and slightly contradict what City and Guilds said, because they showed that two Mr Hayes indicated assent. thirds of those not offering apprenticeships reported that it was inappropriate for their organisation. Again, the point about how to market apprenticeships and Mr Marsden: I see the Minister nodding, and I suspect present them to companies comes to mind. One in six that as he represents a rural constituency he understands said that they were not offering apprenticeships because such issues. of a recruitment freeze, budget restraints or the economic The process is a two-way one, but the Government climate. Interestingly—I am not saying that one side or must consider the unintended consequences of their the other has the last word—less than 5% said that they decisions elsewhere. In their hasty abolition of the were put off by too much associated bureaucracy or regional development agencies, many of the bodies that insufficient public funding. oversaw local skills and employment policies were swept Whatever the case, major challenges must be overcome. away. The new local enterprise partnerships have no It may be relevant to the example about the value of powers in those areas, as skills policy remains under soft skills—I do not like referring to soft skills because central control from Whitehall. that may suggest that they are not important; I prefer to The Federation of Small Businesses and other business call them enabling skills, but that is a matter of organisations have been critical of the Government’s nomenclature—that the CIPD survey showed that failure to give local enterprise partnerships the tools to apprentices were rated highly for enthusiasm, work do the job. Included in that is the concern of the ethic and presentation, but that their creativity, innovation, Federation of Small Businesses that there are not enough 171WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 172WH

[Mr Marsden] I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on securing this debate. Over the representatives from small and medium-sized businesses past year, he and I have had a number of discussions on local enterprise partnership boards. Allowing them about apprenticeships, and whenever we have done so, to have a greater voice is important in terms of real he has shown a commendable interest in and enthusiasm input in tailoring and structuring skills policy locally, for the subject. He has also brought to my attention a and that includes apprenticeships. Indeed, by their nature, series of ideas, reflected in his opening remarks today, small businesses understand the life-changing impact of about how we can further our policy to expand the apprenticeships, and how that must be balanced against number of apprenticeships available. I had the pleasure day-to-day needs. We must remember that although of visiting Gloucester rugby club with him and taking much has been said, rightly, about the challenge of part in an apprenticeship fair that he had helped organise. youth unemployment, we also face the challenges of It was a splendid occasion, and I know that he plans to demographic shift in the next 10 to 15 years, the projections take that forward with a number of similar events in his in the Leitch report, and the particular needs of work-life constituency that will be targeted at under-represented trade-off if we are to attract older people to become groups. Such work is highly commendable. involved with apprenticeships. That includes women in I am grateful to all hon. Members who have contributed particular. There are impressive models from organisations to the debate. As the hon. Member for Blackpool South such as B&Q and British Gas, but we need to see how said, many interesting points have been raised, and I those good practices can be replicated to their counterparts shall try to address as many of them as I can in the time in small business. available—I have rather more time today than Ministers Finally, I want to look at pre-apprenticeship preparation, usually have when responding to such debates, which is which has been mentioned by one or two hon. Members, welcome. and in particular by the hon. Member for Bradford To place my remarks in context, let me stress to hon. East in the context of the first job agreement—the FJA. Members that—make no mistake—apprenticeships are Information, advice and guidance is crucial to inform a flagship policy for the Government. It is true that the people about the opportunities provided by apprenticeships, previous Government made progress on apprenticeships, and if young people do not get such advice, SMEs may and I shall say more about that in a moment. It is be deprived of many suitable candidates. It is vital that equally true, however, that apprenticeships have never the Government have a framework that can deliver been more central to public policy than they are today. quality information, advice and guidance. In truth, The programme to build more apprenticeships in Britain however, there are still real problems with the new than ever seen before in our history is supported by the all-age careers service. Prime Minister, the Chancellor and all Ministers with I know that the Minister has done his best to take responsibility in the area. That is not merely rhetoric— forward such issues in the Department for Business, though I have nothing against rhetoric—and it is illustrated Innovation and Skills. Nevertheless, to echo earlier remarks, by the fact that, despite financial constraints that were, the Department for Education remains singularly unfocused it is fair to say, unusual in their severity, over the current on the need for financial support and for the necessary spending period the Government have dramatically information, advice and guidance to be provided face to increased the funding available for apprenticeships. face. I urge the Minister to press his colleagues further The hon. Member for Blackpool South was kind on that. enough to acknowledge that one of the first things that What proposals does the Minister have to monitor I did on entering the Government was to transfer completion rates more effectively? What conversations £150 million of deadweight Train to Gain funding into are his officials having with organisations responsible apprenticeships to fund an additional 50,000 places. for qualifications about the balance between modular Mr Marsden: But what happened to the rest of it? and more traditional structures for apprenticeships? Such things will be key in determining the attitudes of Mr Hayes: I will come to that in a few moments. small businesses when taking on apprentices. We all When I announce the details of the statistical first agree that apprenticeships have a very real worth for release to the House at the end of the month, I am businesses and apprentices, but the Government must confident that they will show substantial progress and recognise that one size does not fit all. If SMEs are to achievement. As hon. Members will know, provisional help lead sustainable economic growth and recovery, data already in the public domain suggest that we have they must have the tools to achieve it. We must ensure made remarkable progress, despite the difficult economic that apprenticeship frameworks and mechanisms are circumstances in which, as has been said, some firms accessible to all the small businesses that hon. Members might not usually be expected to consider training or have quite rightly praised today, and not only to the big employing new staff. companies that have the money and resources to take The commitment that I have articulated was confirmed on apprentices. in the Budget, when the Chancellor announced a further £180 million of funding for apprenticeships. That will enable us to create 40,000 places for young unemployed 4.41 pm people, taking them from disengagement to re-engagement, The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong and an additional 10,000 places for advanced and higher Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is an immense pleasure to level apprenticeships that are focused on SMEs. serve under you chairmanship, Mr Davies, and it is The work that I am doing with the Department for always a pleasure to speak opposite the hon. Member Work and Pensions has been mentioned. To an for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), who presents his unprecedented degree, I am working with my colleagues case with typical flair and fairness. to ensure that the welfare reforms being introduced, 173WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 174WH and particularly the Work programme, marry with the The risk that I have taken in respect of my opinions is work we are doing on training, skills and apprenticeships. indeed the risk about our endeavours to grow apprenticeship It is important that the 100,000 additional work placements numbers dramatically, but we have to take such risks if that have been secured have a close relationship with we believe that something is right, as Pound suggested, subsequent training and that the system is progressive. and I do believe that this is right for reasons that I shall The experiences that people gain as they move from detail as I respond to the debate. disengagement to re-engagement should lead to further learning and training and ultimately to work. Mr Marsden Will the Minister give way?

Mr Marcus Jones: Under the previous Government, Mr Hayes: I will happily give way.Is the hon. Gentleman there was a shocking drop-out rate in the number of going to quote Pound? apprenticeships started and those completed. In 2009-10 alone, nearly 280,000 apprenticeships were started but only 171,500 were completed. That is shocking. Will the Mr Marsden: The Minister will be relieved, possibly, Minister assure me that the Government will pay far or disappointed to hear that I have no intention of more attention to that issue? Although we cannot guarantee swapping literary quotes with him. Before we lost the that every apprenticeship will be completed, we should thread of the previous useful exchange with the hon. ensure that we get a far better rate of completion than Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), I wanted to ask the in the past. Minister whether part of the consultations or part of the consideration of how we make progress on completions Mr Hayes: Even a Minister as confident as I am will cover whether certain structures of apprenticeship would not wish to disagree with my hon. Friend, because cause more problems between start and completion. he is so highly regarded both in his constituency and in the House. None the less, I must say in fairness that the Mr Hayes: Yes, I think that there will be consideration previous Government made progress on completions—I not only of structures, but of whether there are sector- do not like to say things in the House that I cannot say specific problems, whether there are problems with certain with candour. Although it is true that completions, kinds of apprenticeship and frameworks and whether both under the previous Government and this Government there is an issue about different ages of apprentices. The have posed a challenge—as described by the hon. Member hon. Gentleman will know—indeed, the whole House for Blackpool South—considerable progress was made knows—that we are focusing, as I described earlier, on by the previous Government. Furthermore, to be ever apprenticeships as a means of re-engaging people who more generous and even more self-deprecating, let me are disengaged. The hon. Member for Bradford East say that it will be a challenge for us to maintain completion (Mr Ward) described the length—and I might say the levels as we expand the programme. One risk of a rapid difficulty—of the journey that some people make to expansion in apprenticeships is that we will need to be re-engagement. It is a tough set of challenges for people careful about starts and completions. As more people who were failed by the system first time round. Sometimes, are drawn into the system by the energy that we invest the path to the destination that they seek and we seek and the resources we provide, unless we are careful, for them will be relatively stony. Small bite-sized chunks there is a risk that the number of completions will of learning, delivered in a way that is highly flexible and suffer. As has been suggested, I am working closely with accessible, are often the way of dealing with that, and my officials and we must monitor the situation through we may well need to consider structure in that context. the NAS and look at what measures we can put into The hon. Member for Blackpool South will also place to ensure completions. know that I will announce in the autumn progress on I do not want to move too far from the main thrust of our access to apprenticeships policy. We recognise that my argument, but one such measure might be to look at many young people in particular do not have the prior outcome payments for large apprenticeship providers—in attainments necessary to begin even a level 2 apprenticeship. other words, to work with those large providers and We need to create a ladder for those young people, so ensure that payment is made on completion. I am in that they can acquire the core skills necessary for them discussion with a number of major national companies to progress subsequently to further training and that are extremely interested in engaging in such a employment. He is right to say in that context that the system, and we will pilot such a scheme with a number form, character and pace of learning need to be appropriate of significant apprenticeship providers. That is one of to the circumstances of those learners. the things that we can do with regard to completions, but my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton was The net effect of the commitments that have been right to draw that issue to hon. Members’ attention, as given by the Government is, I believe, that we will create was the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Blackpool more apprenticeships than ever before in this country. South. To put that in firmer terms, as the Prime Minister The difficulty for me in all this is that I have invested himself has said, we expect to create 250,000 more a considerable amount of my political reputation on the apprenticeships during the lifetime of the spending basis that we will indeed create such numbers of period. That will constitute extraordinary growth in the apprenticeships. That might be described as a bold number, compared with what Labour projected. We move. The shadow Minister and possibly others would expect to exceed the previous Government’s target by be disappointed if I was not poetic at some time in this 250,000. That is extraordinary, unprecedented growth speech—I was going to say “performance”, but I do not in the number of apprenticeships. want to undersell myself—and it was Ezra Pound who There has never been that kind of growth in this said: country. However, there are precedents elsewhere. Meeting “If a man isn’t willing to take some risk for his opinions, either my French counterpart some time ago, I was interested his opinions are no good or he’s no good.” to learn that the apprenticeship system in France has 175WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 176WH

[Mr Hayes] Lords as we speak—that will put a statutory duty on schools to secure just such advice. There will also be metamorphosed in the last 20 or so years. The French unprecedented professional competence. apprenticeship system was in the doldrums 25 years I am pleased to say, as I hinted teasingly at Question ago, but the concentration, investment and commitment Time in the House earlier today—actually, it was the of successive French Governments have meant that Secretary of State who revealed it—that we will be France, like Britain now, sees apprenticeships as critical working with the Department for Work and Pensions to to delivering the skills necessary to build a competitive co-locate the national careers service in Jobcentre Plus economy. Therefore, we know that that can be done from this autumn. We will pilot that process and then with political will and determination, backed by resource. have a speedy roll-out. The national careers service, I have said on many occasions that practical skills with separate branding, will be available to people in and those who learn them remain scandalously undervalued Jobcentre Plus, offering the very kind of empirical in our society. It has been said in the debate that many advice that I have described. In addition, I will hold people, including some employers, still view apprenticeships discussions with representatives of colleges to consider as somehow not quite good enough. That is partly co-location in our network of further education colleges. about careers advice and guidance and the perception As well as that, I am considering how funding can be of the routes available, particularly to young people. provided in a way that incentivises professionals in the The matter was raised by the shadow Minister and careers industry to be bolder and to reach out with a others, including my hon. Friend the Member for South new commercial zeal—of course, the independent advisers Thanet (Laura Sandys). By the way, I was delighted to are businesses, too—to provide quality advice. That will join her in her constituency when I visited Thanet make so much difference, particularly for those who do college. I will take this opportunity to say that the work not usually get good advice from elsewhere. that that college is doing with Canterbury Christ Church I shall say a little more about the perception of university is extraordinarily important in developing apprenticeships and practical learning. We too often a practical route to higher learning for many of the undervalue vocational competence. Practical skills and constituents whom my hon. Friend so competently craftsmanship remain objects of admiration for most represents. Britons, but not so among the chi-chi class, the glitterati The advice and guidance that people receive will and the chatterati, who see practical skills as somehow shape their choices about the learning and employment beyond their scope or their understanding. routes that they take. One should not underestimate the The Government’s will reflects the people’s will in influence that that advice has, particularly on young this, and I am determined, not merely because it is people, as I said. The truth is that people such as us are essential for economic purpose but because it is right particularly advantaged in those terms, or at least our socially and culturally, to ignore the overtures and shrill children are. The familial networks and social contacts complaints of what I might call the haute bourgeoisie that my children enjoy will mean that they get pretty liberal establishment—I do not mean the Liberal good advice about the options available to them at Democrats, of course; in this context it is liberal with a school, college and university and in work. That is not small l—and make the case for practical vocation and true of the very large number of people who do not technical learning and practical vocational and technical enjoy those familial and social contacts. Professional competency. We must once again value craft. We must advice and guidance are very important in rebalancing elevate the practical. the quality of the advice that is available to those who are most under-represented in higher education—those Part of this concerns the aesthetics of apprenticeships. who start with the most disadvantages. During adult learners week, I was able to announce a range of measures designed to raise not only the status On that basis, I am determined to develop an all-ages of apprentices but their self-esteem and the worth that careers service, as hon. Members know. That service apprenticeships confer. Those measures include the will bring together careers professionals to a degree that introduction of graduation ceremonies to give public has not been known previously, with a common set of recognition of apprentices’ successes and the creation professional standards and training and consequent of alumni networks to allow former apprentices to accreditation, to deliver high-quality, independent and stay in contact and continue to exchange ideas and empirical advice and guidance, including advice and experiences. guidance on vocational learning options and practical My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert and technical jobs. Halfon) made a convincing case for a society of It has been said in the debate—I think that it was said apprentices, and we shall look closely at that. I very by the hon. Member for Bradford East, my hon. Friend much welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester’s the Member for South Thanet and other hon. Members— acknowledgement of the importance of celebrating that the advice given in schools is often inadequate. It is apprentices and their achievements, and that was reflected fair to say that it is patchy. Some schools do this rather in the comments of the hon. Member for Burnley well; many do it less well. However, what characterises (Gordon Birtwistle). Hon. Members will be glad that, the advice is that it is usually prejudiced by the academic later this month, the national apprenticeship awards, experience of the person offering it. It is a big ask of which I shall attend, will celebrate the achievements of teachers to be excellent pedagogues and also experts on apprentices and employers from all over the country. every kind of career option. It seems to me to be much I turn now to some of the specific raised by my hon. better for schools to secure independent advice. That is Friend the Member for Gloucester. He said that small why the Government are putting a Bill through the and micro-businesses take on apprentices not only to House—it is progressing from the Commons to the drive up growth but to drive down youth unemployment. 177WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 178WH

He is right. Apprenticeships are good not only for when. Bringing the information together in a highly growth but for re-engagement in the economy and for accessible form will counter some of those doubts and social mobility, social cohesion and social justice. You answer some of those questions. know as well as any Member, Mr Davies, that social My hon. Friend knows that I wrote to all Members justice, in the spirit of Disraeli, lies at the very heart of during national apprenticeship week in February, Conservatism. urging as many as possible to take on apprentice in their My hon. Friend asked for recognition of the fact offices. An apprentice works alongside me in my ministerial that, for many reasons, including business confidence, office—I was with him today—and my Parliamentary recruiting apprentices is a challenge for small businesses. Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for I recognise that, and I assure him that I am in no way Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), has just taken on an complacent about the work that must be done to meet apprentice—he is a model of all that is best about the that challenge. That is why I have asked the NAS to 2010 intake of Members, and I urge all hon. Members report to me regularly on the progress that it is making, to do the same. I would, of course, be delighted to host particularly in that field. We are constantly pushing to a reception for Members from across the House with do more. their apprentices not only to celebrate their commitment to the programme but, more importantly, to advertise My hon. Friend sought a commitment that we would the apprenticeship brand. If we take steps forward in consider ways to increase small business take-up, possibly that regard, we can reasonably ask others to do the through group training associations and apprenticeships same. training agencies. The Growth and Innovation Fund will allow the development of more GTAs and ATAs. I As for funding, I will refer that matter to my right cannot say too much about that, because the bids have hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer who will not been considered yet and the results have not been no doubt respond to my hon. Friend personally. [Laughter.] announced. However, my hon. Friend will be pleased to I jest, Mr Davies. I will of course look at whether my know that a large number of applications relate to the Department can fund such a reception, but the hon. areas that he has mentioned. I am a keen supporter of Gentleman cannot expect me to give a detailed commitment the GTA model, and I am carefully considering how, at this stage. Certainly, in November, we will be hosting and in what circumstances, we might see further role-outs a parliamentary reception in partnership with the NAS of that model to reduce the burden on small employers for exemplar apprentices, apprenticeship employers, a of taking on an apprentice. number of other key partners and a selection of employers who wish to recruit apprentices. My hon. Friend spoke about providing some form of An important factor in raising the status of and incentive to small employers to take on an apprentice demand for apprenticeships is the perception among that have not done so before. He will be aware that he prospective apprentices and their employers of where echoes the observations that Alison Wolf made in her an apprenticeship can lead and what an apprentice can report to the Department for Education on vocational become by engaging in an apprenticeship. That is about education. She recommended that targeted subsidies not only advice, guidance and the aesthetics around should be issued to some employers in some circumstances. apprenticeships, but the promotion of apprenticeships. Although I cannot confirm any details today, I am not The kind of fair that my hon. Friend ran in Gloucester unsympathetic to that view. That will not come as a and that other hon. Members are now running in their surprise given that it was in the Conservative manifesto, constituencies are immensely important in raising the which I wrote before the election—I must say that I profile of the brand and in countering some of the wrote that part, not the whole of it. mis-assumptions about apprenticeships that might prevail Had economic circumstances been different, and given among employers or learners. that the coalition partners share a view on the matter, I warmly support the 100 apprenticeships in 100 days we might well have put measures of that sort into place, initiatives that have been run across the country. We will but we live in tough times, and it is not possible to do all look at other ways in which to promote apprenticeships. that we might have done or might have wanted to do. We are always keen to be innovative, creative and Nevertheless, Alison Wolf’s proposals shed fresh light, imaginative, and I assure hon. Members that the NAS is and we will be considering them in detail, mindful of considering a range of ways in which to advertise the the deadweight costs that are always associated with virtues of apprenticeships in every way. financial support for employers. Last year, we published in the national press the My hon. Friend mentioned bureaucracy, transparency names of all those people who had achieved higher and flexibility in the system, and he asked for my apprenticeships in the same way in which we publish the assurances on those matters. My officials are working names of people who achieve degrees and postgraduate on plans greatly to simplify the apprenticeships system, qualifications. That is the kind of thing that I mean and to make it as easy as possible for employers of all when I discuss new ways in which we can celebrate shapes and sizes to take on an apprentice. Indeed, a success. Such ambitions have been broadly welcomed taskforce led by major employers has just reported to by employers as steps in the right direction. In the final my officials on the subject. It will use the recommendations analysis, the impact of an expanded and improved of real employers with relevant experience to make such apprenticeships system on learners’ lives and on our changes a reality. As I have said, we are piloting outcome collective prospects for economic growth depend most payments for large employers and developing a toolkit of all on employers’ willingness to take on apprentices. for smaller employers to guide them through the process. Government can only do so much. We celebrate the Smaller employers often say, as my hon. Friend will 85,000 employers who currently take on apprentices, acknowledge, that the process is confusing; they are not and we should recognise their commitment to those sure where to turn, or which steps they need to take and people—their willingness to invest in individual futures. 179WH Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)9 JUNE 2011 Apprenticeships (Small Businesses) 180WH

[Mr Hayes] That is important for rural communities. My constituents simply cannot travel long distances to large companies Many larger employers appreciate just what a boost to do apprenticeships, which they might be able to do apprentices can give to a company. During the course of more easily in an urban area. Therefore, the roll-out to this year, we have seen a welcome number of larger more companies, especially small companies, has businesses pledging to create or expand apprenticeship disproportionate significance in those kinds of programmes. My hon. Friend is right to point out that constituencies. smaller employers can face particular problems in that The commitment that the Government have made to regard. It has been said by a number of hon. Members, apprenticeships is unequivocal and unabated. That is including my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton, good news for the people and businesses of Gloucester that small businesses are critical to the success of this and for people up and down the country. Apprenticeships project, and that is because they are critical to the embody everything that this Government and I personally success of our economy more generally. They are the stand for. Politics is about ideas, but ideas stripped of very backbone of the British economy. Working with feeling and heartfelt sentiment are cold, arid and sorry very small businesses to help them to deal with some of things. My heart-felt commitment to apprenticeships is the burdens and hurdles associated with apprenticeships not something for which I apologise. Benjamin Disraeli is a priority for the Government. said: Research has shown that SMEs tend to be less aware “Never apologise for showing feeling. When you do so, you of apprenticeships and their benefits than larger firms. I apologise for the truth.” pay tribute to those SMEs that take on apprentices, The truth is that apprenticeships deliver both for our which form the majority of apprenticeships. None the economy and for a wider social purpose. By extending less, we must go further. The remedy for some of the apprenticeship opportunities, we will feed social mobility. difficulties lies with my Department and the NAS, and This ladder of opportunity will enable the most we are working determinedly together to reduce to a disadvantaged to climb to highly skilled, highly paid minimum, consistent with quality assurance, the and respected employment. bureaucratic pressures associated with training an However, in the end, what we earn is less significant apprentice. We have already acted to provide special than what we do and what we are. The worth and help for the increasing number of SMEs, such as those purposeful pride that people gain from an apprenticeship in advanced manufacturing and digital industries, which and from acquiring a competence that has economic require high-level skills. The 10,000 additional high-level value are immensely important in building a society apprenticeships will be focused largely in SMEs. We are that works. Every business can play a vital part in also offering new grant funding and will support businesses fulfilling this vision, and I will work to ensure that the coming together as consortia to build advanced and barriers in their way are pulled down. Together we can higher-level apprenticeship schemes to address skills create a society where all feel valued because each is gaps. That could include setting up new training frameworks valued. I am talking about a bolder, better and bigger and delivering joint apprenticeship training. nation—a British future as glorious as Britain’s past. My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) made a bold bid on behalf of the Kidderminster 5.18 pm business enterprise zone. Although I cannot comment Richard Graham: I am grateful to you, Mr Davies, for on the detail of that, I acknowledge his well-known chairing this debate and to all the hon. Members who commitment to his constituency. have participated. I am grateful to the shadow Minister, The shadow Minister spoke about the structure of the hon. Member for Blackpool South, for his contribution schemes. There is an argument for a modular approach. and to the Minister, who believes so strongly in the We will consider that, because it is particularly relevant cause to which all of us are so committed, for delivering to micro-businesses, the virtues of which have been his response to my debate. He has reassured us about advertised by many Members. the future of apprenticeships overall. There is a renewed It is important to recognise that employing an apprentice focus on tackling the smallest businesses and making might not always be possible for every small business. apprenticeships accessible to them, which can only provide As my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester has reassurance to the young unemployed who are seeking pointed out, that is one good reason to look seriously at opportunities from the Government. GTAs and ATAs. Such measures will help to ensure not Question put and agreed to. only that we provide more apprenticeships, but that apprenticeships are available in a wider range of companies 5.19 pm and a larger number of specialisms than ever before. Sitting adjourned. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

The above documents have been placed in the Library Written Ministerial of the House. Statements EDUCATION Thursday 9 June 2011 Education and Youth Council TREASURY Tax Consultations The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Tim Loughton): The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David EDUCATION COUNCIL Gauke): Since the June Budget 2010, the Government have taken a number of steps to improve tax policy I represented the UK at the Education Council. The making, with consultation on policy and scrutiny of Council was preceded by a ministerial breakfast on the legislation as the cornerstones. subject of adult learning. During this I set out UK Budget 2011 announced a number of tax policy policy on our skills strategy, reforms to the national changes and longer-term tax reforms that will be subject careers service, and the forthcoming Government to consultation. These are summarised in the tax consultation on informal adult learning. consultation tracker, which is available on the HM Early school leaving Treasury website at: The Council agreed a recommendation on policies to http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_updates.htm. reduce early school leaving by qualified majority. The HM Revenue and Customs and HM Treasury will UK voted against the recommendation as it was inconsistent tomorrow publish the following consultation documents: with our national approach. While we understand and A new incentive for charitable legacies—A consultation to accept the importance of reducing early school leaving inform policy detail on how best to implement a lower rate in the context of the Europe 2020 strategy, we have of inheritance tax when leaving 10% or more of an estate to concerns with the policy approach suggested in the charity. recommendation. For example, some of the language Consultation on the patent box—A consultation on how to on “modularisation of courses” and “individualised implement a reduced 10% rate of corporation tax for profits learning approaches” sits uncomfortably with our strong arising from patents. belief that it is for teachers to decide the educational Research and development tax credits: response and consultation styles that best suit their students’ needs. Commissioner —A response to the November 2010 consultation and detail of further proposed changes to the research and development Vassiliou later noted that tax reliefs. “in response to the UK points, Early School leaving cannot be Updates to dates for some consultations planned for solved by education alone”. June and July have been made to the tax consultation A ministerial debate on this subject focused on prevention tracker. policies to combat early school leaving with particular emphasis on children from a socio-economically COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT disadvantaged background, including the Roma. Member states were asked about national mechanisms for evaluating Affordable Homes Programme these policies, and the role of the EU in this area. I and a number of other member states noted that quality education, literacy and high attainment were key to The Minister of State, Department for Communities combating early school leaving. I also noted that teachers and Local Government (Greg Clark): Further to the had a key role to play and that pupil attainment was written statement of 14 February 2011, Official Report, central to this issue, alongside clear measures of column 36WS from my right hon. Friend the Minister accountability. The presidency stated that a summary of for Housing and Local Government, I am today this discussion would be presented to the June European announcing the publication of the technical revision to Council. annex B of planning policy statement 3, to make clear that affordable rent falls within the definition of affordable Early childhood education and care housing for planning purposes. Also published today is The Council adopted conclusions on early childhood a document summarising the responses that were received education and care. The conclusions invite member to the consultation paper, planning policy statement 3: states to analyse and evaluate existing early childhood “Planning for Housing Technical Change to Annex B, services in terms of availability, affordability and quality. Affordable Housing Definition”, published on 14 February They also invite the Commission to support member 2011; and an “Affordable Rent Impact Assessment”. states in exchanging good policies and practices and to Planning policy statement 3, with a revised annex B broaden the evidence base in this field. can be found at: www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ Promoting the educational mobility of young people planningandbuilding/pps3housing. A Council recommendation on promoting the The summary of responses is at: www.communities. educational mobility of young people was also agreed. gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/ The recommendation suggests a number of measures pps3annexsummary. including: improving information and guidance on The affordable rent impact assessment at: http:// educational mobility opportunities, improving language www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ teaching and exchanges between schools, reducing rentimpactassessment. administrative burdens linked to organising educational 35WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS experiences abroad, and improving procedures for validation of this decision and the analysis underpinning it are set and recognition of educational outcomes following the out in “Feed-in Tariffs Scheme: Summary of Responses period abroad. to the Fast Track Consultation and Government Response” Italy abstained in the vote to agree the recommendation which the Government are publishing today and will be over concerns about referring to a monitoring system available at: www.decc.gov.uk/FITs. proposed by the Commission, known as the “mobility I recognise that this decision will be unwelcome to scoreboard”. A study into the feasibility of such a some, including those involved in large solar PV projects scoreboard is yet to be carried out. who disagreed with the proposals relating to PV. I can YOUTH COUNCIL assure the House that it is not a decision that has been The UK deputy permanent representative Andy Lebrecht taken lightly. All the concerns raised by respondents, represented the UK at the Youth Council. together with alternative approaches suggested, have Effective participation of young people in democratic life been carefully considered, analysed and taken into account. The Council adopted a resolution on encouraging However, these concerns have to be balanced against new and effective forms of participation of all young the need for a responsible approach to public subsidies people in democratic life. The UK is strongly in favour like FITs, to ensure value-for-money for consumers and of youth participation and I will host a representative ensure scheme longevity. The fact remains that under young people’s advisory group that will scrutinise and the current tariffs, large-scale solar PV projects are provide feedback on emerging policy proposals. securing much higher returns on investment than the Structured dialogue with young people on youth employment scheme intended. This is reflected in the unanticipated The Council adopted a resolution on structured dialogue number of such projects now in the pipeline. with young people and the EU Institutions on youth Put simply, the FITs scheme has a vital role in building employment. The resolution recommends various changes a more decentralised energy economy, but if we do not to the structured dialogue with young people. This act now to control short-term expenditure on solar PV includes political follow-up of the results, greater more closely in line with the forecasts that we inherited participation by disadvantaged youth and improved from the last Government, the negative impacts on the working methods that provide a meaningful process for scheme will be considerable and the amount of funding young people. for other technologies and smaller, domestic-scale solar Voluntary activities PV will be severely constrained. Ministers also debated voluntary activities of young To give effect to these tariff changes, today a set of people and their contribution to the development of licence modifications to amend the standard licence local communities. National initiatives mentioned included conditions of electricity supply licences in Parliament. subsidies for youth organisations and national citizenship Subject to any necessary state aid clearance and the programmes (in Italy, France, and the UK, where national parliamentary process required by the Energy Act 2008, citizen service will have its pilot this summer). the generation tariffs changes will apply from 1 August 2011. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE The Government will not act retrospectively and these changes to generation tariffs will only affect new Feed-in Tariffs entrants into the FITs scheme from 1 August 2011. Installations which are already accredited for FITs at the time will not be affected. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker): On 18 March I announced the start of a consultation on proposals to change feed-in tariffs (FITs) for solar photovoltaic (PV) installations larger than 50 kilowatts and farm-scale HOME DEPARTMENT anaerobic digestion (AD) of up to 500 kilowatts. Having carefully considered the responses received, of which there were more than 500, I can now confirm Immigration the outcome of that consultation and the fast-track review of FITS. It is clear from all the evidence received as part of the The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): The consultation that the demand for feed-in tariff subsidy Home Office is today publishing a consultation on has grown so substantially that it now significantly employment-related settlement, tier 5 of the points-based exceeds the amount of funding available during this system and overseas domestic workers. A copy will be spending review period. Without urgent intervention, placed in the Library of the House. the scheme would have been completely overwhelmed Immigration has enriched our culture and strengthened within a very short period of time. That is why it is so our economy, but it must be controlled so that people important for us to act now: it is vital that we protect have confidence in the system. This Government have the integrity of the scheme and can continue to support already introduced a limit on non-EU economic migrants the ambitious roll-out of new green decentralised energy entering the UK; reshaped tiers 1 and 2 of the points-based technologies in homes, communities and small business. system to increase selectivity and skills requirements; With that aim in mind, the coalition has decided to and announced changes to tier 4, the student visa proceed with the proposed tariff reductions for solar system. These policies will result in a downward trend photovoltaic (PV) installations larger than 50 kilowatts in net migration and a reduction in abuse, but we need and all stand-alone installations, and increases for farm-scale to take further action to ensure we reach sustainable AD as set out in the consultation document. The detail levels. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

This consultation is the next stage in our immigration there are two routes: one for domestic workers in private reforms. We intend to break the automatic link between households and one for private servants working in coming to the UK to work and settling here permanently. diplomatic households. Both allow for extended periods In 1997, there were fewer than 10,000 employment-related of temporary leave (five years and six years respectively) grants of settlement; by 2010, that number had risen to and both enable the domestic worker to apply for over 84,000. We need to be more selective about who we settlement after five years. This is exceptionally generous, allow to stay. The consultation considers how we do and sits ill with an immigration system focused on that. Its starting point is that we need to be clearer in meeting identified skill shortages and securing the brightest our labelling of temporary and permanent migration and best migrants. We are also conscious that overseas routes to enable migrants and the public to better domestic workers may be vulnerable to abuse and understand the immigration system. We propose to exploitation. The national referral mechanism provides reposition tier 2 as a temporary route, predominantly a an effective means of protection and support for victims means of filling short-term skills shortages in the UK but we are considering tackling the problem at source. labour market. Most tier 2 migrants should expect to So as well as seeking views on restricting leave to a leave the UK after a maximum of five years in the UK. maximum of six or 12 months, which would allow In future, only a tightly controlled minority will be domestic workers to accompany their employer for a permitted to stay permanently, where it is in the interests short period only, and removing the right to bring of the UK to do so. We are seeking views on how to dependants, we also want to consider whether we should achieve this in a way which enables the best outcomes close the private households route altogether. This would for the economy. Alongside the public consultation, the oblige those wanting domestic workers to recruit instead Home Secretary is also commissioning advice from the from the UK labour market, with the rights and protections Migration Advisory Committee on the economic effects that affords. of removing or restricting settlement rights, and on Details of the public consultation can be found on criteria for identifying the most economically important the Home Office website and copies will also be placed migrants for settlement. We have already announced in the Library of the House. reforms to the tier 1 investor and entrepreneur categories, The consultation will run for three months, until 9 including the possibility of accelerated settlement for September and we will announce our firm plans in due these high-value migrants. We will be consulting, however, course. As the Home Secretary announced in February, on whether tier 1 exceptional-talent migrants should we intend the settlement reforms will affect those workers have an automatic route to settlement and whether we who entered economic migration routes under the should remove the ability of all tier 1 migrants to apply immigration rules in force from 6 April this year and for further leave to remain after five years in the UK. To who, under the current system, could have expected to aid integration and social cohesion, we are also considering apply for settlement in 2016. The timing of reforms to the introduction of an English language requirement tier 5 and the overseas domestic worker routes will for the dependants of economic migrants who signal depend on the outcome of consultation, but we would their intention to apply for settlement. anticipate them taking effect during 2012. The consultation also sets out proposals for reform A further consultation document will be published of tier 5 of the points-based system and the overseas later this year, considering the rules applying to those domestic worker routes. who come to the UK for family reasons such as marriage. The Government do not plan any reforms to the tier 5 (youth mobility) category. We do, however, want Police (Firearms) to consider restricting leave under the tier 5 (temporary worker) categories to 12 months, to reinforce the temporary nature of the route, which is intended to be primarily The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick for non-economic purposes, such as scientific exchange Herbert): The latest figures on police use of firearms in and artistic and cultural activities. The consultation England and Wales from 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010 asks whether it is right that migrants in these categories show that: should be able to be accompanied by dependants and The number of police operations in which firearms were whether those dependants should have open access to authorised was 18,556—a decrease of 1,395 (7%) on the the UK labour market. We will also consider raising the previous year. threshold for entry to the Government-authorised exchange The number of authorised firearms officers (AFO’s) was sub-category of tier 5 so that the skills requirement is at 6,979—an increase of 111 (1.6%) officers overall on the graduate level, bringing it into line with the revised previous year. tier 2 arrangements. Our intention is that the UK The number of operations involving armed response vehicles ancestry route should remain unchanged. was 14,089—a decrease of 2,475 (15%) on the previous year. Finally, the consultation considers the two routes by The police discharged a conventional firearm in six incidents which overseas domestic workers may enter the UK to (up from five incidents in 2008-09). accompany or join their employer’s household. Currently, Full details are set out in the tables below:

Table 1- Number of Operations in which Firearms were Authorised Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

AVON & SOMERSET 195 262 311 333 247 285 328 339 267 BEDFORDSHIRE 237 301 442 475 575 663 1,217 1,229 869 39WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

Table 1- Number of Operations in which Firearms were Authorised Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

CAMBRIDGESHIRE 114 57 104 241 201 207 316 460 490 CHESHIRE 419 451 397 358 367 340 317 269 314 CLEVELAND 37 170 453 530 657 293 577 667 430 CITY OF LONDON 40 131 364 404 323 239 365 63 38 CUMBRIA 71 77 72 152 112 92 92 86 80 DERBYSHIRE 275 401 369 287 305 223 211 310 198 DEVON & CORNWALL 101 96 112 71 84 80 143 170 185 DORSET 184 193 231 223 263 354 258 369 351 DURHAM 89 83 156 144 291 340 206 181 140 ESSEX 323 312 275 296 432 245 529 529 444 GLOUCESTERSHIRE 165 185 127 176 229 280 162 132 175 GTR MANCHESTER 580 518 507 461 478 481 497 524 415 HAMPSHIRE 198 162 208 237 289 352 382 362 292 HERTFORDSHIRE 112 172 195 185 187 280 303 343 205 HUMBERSIDE 297 187 183 206 362 235 209 123 133 KENT 115 137 207 163 219 170 202 280 275 LANCASHIRE 232 238 318 241 240 410 388 281 245 LEICESTERSHIRE 300 268 295 260 363 334 318 347 280 LINCOLNSHIRE 477 392 386 294 220 157 158 133 73 MERSEYSIDE 1,020 628 751 733 669 727 829 556 701 METROPOLITAN 2,447 3,199 3,563 2,964 4,711 3,878 4,948 5,044 5,534 NORFOLK 175 200 178 195 175 153 174 274 192 NORTHAMPTONSHIRE 43 138 148 158 137 156 159 120 109 NORTHUMBRIA 1,440 1,275 1,140 977 611 332 229 154 156 NORTH YORKSHIRE 92 100 147 185 183 282 329 289 272 NOTTINGHAMSHIRE 384 452 459 408 394 289 270 245 194 SOUTH YORKSHIRE 258 463 484 546 749 737 628 538 533 STAFFORDSHIRE 232 281 255 216 171 250 244 209 183 SUFFOLK 163 270 251 153 202 256 193 237 225 SURREY 245 247 203 151 222 222 375 479 188 SUSSEX 248 204 280 187 190 201 331 331 227 THAMES VALLEY 179 167 195 289 427 264 293 344 319 WARWICKSHIRE 130 149 164 124 180 162 150 145 129 WEST MERCIA 117 91 197 162 122 155 202 171 122 WEST MIDLANDS1 822 902 1,377 1,264 1,044 1,557 1,063 1,109 933 WEST YORKSHIRE 757 604 575 853 1,335 1,272 1,130 1,367 1,512 WILTSHIRE 45 58 63 88 139 226 128 158 152 DYFED POWYS 28 29 28 51 63 72 155 92 71 GWENT 20 37 40 81 94 133 334 152 151 NORTH WALES 302 259 197 223 350 340 259 185 126 SOUTH WALES 283 281 250 236 279 308 293 555 628 TOTAL 13,991 14,827 16,657 15,981 18,891 18,032 19,894 19,951 18,556

Table 2 – Number of Authorised Firearms Officers (AFOs) Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

AVON & SOMERSET 116 84 122 118 117 103 123 127 124 BEDFORDSHIRE 48 53 58 56 59 57 53 50 54 CAMBRIDGESHIRE 56 71 60 60 50 46 49 51 45 CHESHIRE 81 89 75 76 73 80 72 88 95 CLEVELAND 85 80 95 100 100 105 97 83 72 CITY OF LONDON 73 72 86 89 86 45 49 50 51 CUMBRIA 92 87 89 90 89 90 97 86 91 DERBYSHIRE 80 69 70 74 75 69 61 61 71 DEVON & CORNWALL 108 115 132 123 122 132 142 146 157 DORSET 57 59 60 64 62 67 71 79 65 DURHAM 86 102 97 103 100 102 89 82 81 ESSEX 180 184 186 202 205 220 225 223 223 GLOUCESTERSHIRE 71 80 82 93 92 94 95 97 108 41WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

Table 2 – Number of Authorised Firearms Officers (AFOs) Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

GTR MANCHESTER 219 202 205 187 245 217 250 296 237 HAMPSHIRE 87 94 94 92 97 83 85 93 96 HERTFORDSHIRE 46 47 50 53 52 49 53 50 46 HUMBERSIDE 96 96 96 101 92 83 87 80 77 KENT 113 93 90 94 94 98 87 110 103 LANCASHIRE 138 129 122 115 123 103 143 105 94 LEICESTERSHIRE 69 68 51 53 59 67 64 73 76 LINCOLNSHIRE 91 87 78 86 87 75 77 69 60 MERSEYSIDE 78 84 94 93 129 139 153 154 141 METROPOLITAN 1,805 1,823 2,060 2,134 2,331 2,584 2,530 2,740 2,856 NORFOLK 104 109 114 125 119 127 114 106 111 NORTHAMPTONSHIRE 51 56 52 50 56 59 53 50 55 NORTHUMBRIA 125 99 90 93 98 92 96 95 102 NORTH YORKSHIRE 66 64 60 56 78 67 67 63 64 NOTTINGHAMSHIRE 136 131 138 138 149 146 137 133 91 SOUTH YORKSHIRE 92 100 98 122 116 118 106 99 102 STAFFORDSHIRE 71 63 67 76 70 82 82 75 85 SUFFOLK 90 80 96 88 84 78 74 67 68 SURREY 62 48 53 49 51 45 54 54 60 SUSSEX 120 141 134 130 129 129 123 123 114 THAMES VALLEY 156 180 172 176 180 186 180 180 193 WARWICKSHIRE 50 51 46 53 55 59 63 66 76 WEST MERCIA2 125 131 139 141 152 133 163 137 115 WEST MIDLANDS 111 110 124 134 145 175 177 165 180 WEST YORKSHIRE 116 132 140 130 150 148 147 135 156 WILTSHIRE 71 78 80 74 72 69 67 74 69 DYFED POWYS 77 62 58 79 68 72 67 63 64 GWENT 57 60 71 74 86 64 63 54 61 NORTH WALES 83 75 73 65 57 56 57 53 76 SOUTH WALES 138 125 139 134 130 115 138 121 114 TOTAL 5,776 5,763 6,096 6,243 6,584 6,728 6,780 6,868 6,979

Table3–NumberofOperations Involving Armed Response Vehicles (ARVs) Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

AVON & SOMERSET 173 215 249 312 167 192 292 231 137 BEDFORDSHIRE 172 269 414 419 534 639 1,171 1,188 819 CAMBRIDGESHIRE 43 45 155 172 160 172 221 366 393 CHESHIRE3 523 337 356 773 807 793 642 221 CLEVELAND 13 63 86 154 285 290 554 661 426 CITY OF LONDON 39 131 364 275 234 183 200 63 32 CUMBRIA 53 45 65 134 90 72 74 56 51 DERBYSHIRE 253 363 312 254 257 183 187 252 169 DEVON & CORNWALL 76 32 94 54 54 76 120 138 168 DORSET 182 180 215 195 246 322 238 347 349 DURHAM 57 66 96 91 256 204 192 164 140 ESSEX 165 176 138 138 155 224 226 391 273 GLOUCESTERSHIRE 140 166 109 121 145 213 147 120 100 GTR MANCHESTER 528 406 440 364 306 214 196 460 292 HAMPSHIRE 116 108 128 167 178 270 271 247 194 HERTFORDSHIRE 81 129 157 155 160 226 262 311 182 HUMBERSIDE 273 170 158 184 335 232 183 94 111 KENT 89 132 193 124 183 373 364 325 227 LANCASHIRE 192 185 273 228 232 383 313 279 239 LEICESTERSHIRE 292 232 269 232 328 313 268 332 263 LINCOLNSHIRE 470 367 355 276 210 147 153 128 63 MERSEYSIDE 974 547 687 677 611 644 734 445 631 METROPOLITAN 1,667 2,447 2,423 2,322 2,572 2,770 2,303 3,283 3,563 NORFOLK 157 186 169 163 149 133 165 252 176 43WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

Table3–NumberofOperations Involving Armed Response Vehicles (ARVs) Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

NORTHAMPTONSHIRE 25 90 99 89 101 119 127 117 88 NORTHUMBRIA 1,349 1,204 1,063 893 585 299 199 129 134 NORTH YORKSHIRE 60 67 110 144 208 268 318 287 267 NOTTINGHAMSHIRE 333 397 404 336 342 256 246 197 175 SOUTH YORKSHIRE 221 280 322 438 632 522 493 387 325 STAFFORDSHIRE 208 241 212 183 154 222 231 192 155 SUFFOLK 116 160 194 119 149 204 148 206 189 SURREY 225 240 190 140 204 209 380 469 174 SUSSEX 189 171 250 163 162 165 311 248 177 THAMES VALLEY 174 167 179 265 355 227 254 292 272 WARWICKSHIRE 104 31 138 102 144 121 113 100 92 WEST MERCIA 100 111 241 152 94 120 121 128 148 WEST MIDLANDS1 563 592 975 952 745 518 716 739 689 WEST YORKSHIRE 609 565 543 656 1,040 1,048 1,098 1,361 1,203 WILTSHIRE 43 39 28 54 124 190 359 499 120 DYFED POWYS 28 29 28 48 55 72 135 80 59 GWENT 16 16 23 74 85 109 257 138 147 NORTH WALES 265 198 153 180 299 295 221 156 107 SOUTH WALES 218 253 161 165 223 283 222 485 570 TOTAL 11,574 11,848 13,218 13,137 14,355 14,515 15,425 16,564 14,089

Table4–NumberofIncidents where Conventional Firearms were Discharged Year 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

INCIDENTS 11 10 4 5 9 3 7 5 6 % of incidents 0.079 0.067 0.024 0.031 0.048 0.017 0.033 0.025 0.032 compared with number of authorised operations Source: Association of Chief Police Officers (Does not include discharges for animal destruction or during police training)

Notes for tables: In addition to the total number of operations, a further sub-category is required regarding those operations 1. Revised figure for 2007/08 from West Midlands Police where the initial or sole response is by armed response 2. Revised figure for 2008/09 from West Mercia vehicle (ARV). Constabulary Each incident will be classed as only one operation regardless of the number of personnel/deployments or 3. Cheshire did not record ARV operations for 2009/10 tactics employed to deal with the incident. Source: Home Office Public Order Unit, based on Deployments also include those incidents where AFOs information aggregated from figures provided by individual “self-authorise”. police forces as part of the Home Office annual data The number of officers authorised to use firearms as requirement. This was followed by a further quality at 31 March 2010. assurance process involving the Home Office asking individual forces to verify and sign off their figures. The information provided is a regular annual update TRANSPORT of figures previously published and available on the Home Office website here: No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron http://tna.europarchive.org/20100419081706/http:/ www.police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operational-policing/ firearms/index.html. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): As the House will be aware, Home Office guidance to forces for providing these work was carried out by the royal household in 2008 to figures is contained within the booklet “Annual Data consider the option for procuring a small aircraft for Requirement, Police Personnel and Performance Data, official travel within the UK. This work concluded that Notes for Guidance”. For the purpose of this statistical such an acquisition could not at that time be justified return AFOs are deemed to be deployed when on the grounds of value-for-money. “they are required to conduct a specific task during which their The royal household therefore continue to make use possession of a firearm (with appropriate authorisation) is a of chartered air services and the scheduled market and, required element”(Chapter 3, paragraph 3.1 ACPO “Manual of where irreducible spare capacity exists, will continue to Guidance on Police Use of Firearms”). make use of No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

WORK AND PENSIONS reflect the needs of individual disabled people in the modern work place are important goals. The employment services we provide for disabled people must be effective. Employment Support (Disabled People) This report shows clearly that there is more that needs to be done. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller): I have today published a I welcome this review, and the central theme that copy of the report to the Government by Liz Sayce, resources for supporting disabled people into and in chief executive of RADAR, reviewing specialist disability employment should be primarily focused on disabled employment programmes. Copies of the report will be people themselves. available in the Vote Office. The report contains a range of specific recommendations, Meeting the aspirations of disabled people for and the Government intend to consult on these before employment in the full range of jobs and sectors of the making any decisions. A full response and consultation economy, and ensuring that the services we provide will be issued shortly.

403W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 404W

creating sporting opportunities that give everyone the Written Answers to chance to become part of the mass participation legacy. Further detail can be found at the following link: Questions http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/news_stories/7565.aspx In addition, we are introducing the School Games, a new school sport competition which will provide more Thursday 9 June 2011 opportunities for pupils in schools across the UK to compete in sport through a vibrant programme of regular intra- and inter-school competitions. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Tourism Broadcasting: Alcoholic Drinks Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for local tourism centres sponsored by his Department are Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions in operation; [58500] he has had with Ofcom on the effects on informed consent to participation in a television broadcast by a (2) how many local tourism centres sponsored by his subject of the provision of alcohol by the broadcaster. Department are expected to close in (a) 2011-12 and [58726] (b) 2012-13. [58501]

Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State has had no discussions John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media with Ofcom on this matter. and Sport does not directly sponsor local tourism centres. Over the next four years, we are though allocating Government Art Collection nearly £33 million to VisitEngland to help support existing and new local destination management Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations in developing the visitor economy in their Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many works own areas. in the Government art collection are currently on UK Film Council display; and how many such works are on display in London. [58600] Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: As of 7 June, there are 9,039 works on Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the cost to display, of which 3,472 are on display in London. the public purse has been of the abolition of the UK Film Council. [58777] Olympic Games 2012 Mr Jeremy Hunt: I refer the hon. Member to the Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for answer I gave him on 4 May 2011, Official Report, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is column 753W. taking to encourage the engagement of young people in the north-east in the London 2012 Olympics. [58397] TRANSPORT Hugh Robertson: It is important that children and young people from across the UK are actively encouraged Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers to participate in the wide range of opportunities created by the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Over 17,000 schools and colleges across the UK have (1) on what date special advisers in his Department last registered for LOCOG’s education programme Get Set, used the Government car pool to travel in an official 790 of those are in the north-east—61.1% of the total capacity; and on how many occasions a special adviser number in the region. Through the Inspire Programme, in his Department has travelled to their home address over 1,200 cultural and sporting programmes across the using the Government car pool since May 2010; [56086] UK have been awarded Inspire Marks, including 50 in (2) how much his Department spent on special the north-east. Projects such as ‘Kite Mark’ and ‘Northern advisers’ travel by (a) Government car, (b) private hire Design Competition’ will assist in engaging young people car, (c) train, (d) bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) with London 2012. private aircraft since May 2010. [56092] The north-east has secured £1.53 million from the Legacy Trust for the region’s ‘Generation 2012’ project. Norman Baker: Special advisers are not entitled to This initiative provides opportunities for regional cultural use of a car from the Government car pool and no cars organisations and young people to work together to from the pool have been used by special advisers to develop up to 10 high quality, aspirational 2012 projects travel on official business or to travel to their home in the region, bringing people together for community addresses. activities of all kinds. The Department has not incurred any expenditure in In November I launched the ‘Places People Play’ relation to use by special advisers of buses, commercial programme, which will bring sporting legacy to life in or private aircraft, or Government cars since May 2010. communities across the country. This will be achieved Civil servants and special advisers can use a taxi by transforming the places where people play sport, when this is justified and in accordance with departmental inspiring all to make sport happen at a local level and rules and the requirements of the Civil Service Management 405W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 406W

Code. The Department has a call-off account with the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation Government Car and Despatch Agency for a low carbon taxi-style service known as the Green car service. On Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for one occasion since May 2010 a special adviser has used Transport whether he plans to amend the Renewable a Green car, at a cost of £36. This was in accordance Transport Fuel Obligation target for the obligation with departmental rules for civil servants’ use of taxis in period beginning on 15 April 2012; and what steps he relation to late night working. has taken to increase the level of sustainability of The Department has spent £568 on train tickets for biofuels for use in vehicles. [58061] special advisers over the past year. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport is Motor Vehicles: Registration currently consulting on amendments to the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation, to implement the renewable energy and fuel quality directives. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 12 May 2011, Official Report, We do not propose to make any changes to the column 1300W, on motor vehicles: registration, if he current obligation levels that are set out in the Renewable will bring forward proposals to compensate the owners Transport Fuel Obligations Order 2007 as amended. of limousines currently on the road who were granted However, we propose a legal obligation on the Secretary new vehicle registration documents without the evidence of State for Transport to keep the level under review and to consider what additional measures will be required required to meet the single vehicle approval test. [58356] to ensure that the UK delivers the requirements of the renewable energy and fuel quality directives in the period Mike Penning: The Secretary of State for Transport 2014 to 2020. This will enable us to establish a stable will not bring forward any proposals to compensate biofuel policy that will allow industry to robustly plan owners of limousines. for the period 2014 to 2020. In carrying out its statutory functions and dealing The consultation proposes to introduce mandatory with applications for registration, the Driver and Vehicle sustainability criteria. These include that biofuels, with licensing Agency (DVLA) does not owe a duty of care some exceptions, must deliver greenhouse gas savings of to third party purchasers who may subsequently rely on at least 35% when compared to fossil fuels and that vehicle registration certificates when entering into a biofuels must not be sourced from areas of high biodiversity, commercial transaction. or from high carbon soils (e.g. rainforests or wetlands). All biofuels will have to meet these mandatory sustainability Navigation: General Lighthouse Authority criteria in order to be counted towards meeting the targets in the renewable energy and fuel quality directives, Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport and therefore receive rewards under an amended Renewable what work he is undertaking with the General Lighthouse Transport Fuel Obligation scheme. Authority to (a) continue maintenance of LORAN-C radionavigation and (b) to develop a full eLORAN Rescue Services: Northern Ireland radionavigation system. [58503] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mike Penning: The provision of general marine aids by what date he expects to make an announcement on to navigation around our coasts is the statutory the future of coastguard stations in Northern Ireland. responsibility of the three General Lighthouse Authorities. [58496] The General Lighthouse Authorities consider the need, usage and number of aids to navigation, including Mike Penning: We expect to make an announcement LORAN-C and its associated infrastructure. about the modernisation of Her Majesty’s Coastguard The General Lighthouse Authorities’ Research and before the House rises for summer recess on 19 July. Radionavigation Directorate is undertaking the development of the eLORAN system in the UK. Roads: Regulation

Railways Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport for what reasons no organisation representing cyclists Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for was included among the experts championing the Red Transport whether his Department has carried out research Tape Challenge on Road Transport; and if he will into the productivity of business passengers while travelling nominate such an expert as soon as possible. [58548] by rail. [55447] Mike Penning: There are relatively few regulations Mrs Villiers [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The governing the use of cycling—only five out of over 400 Department for Transport commissioned a consortium in the whole of this section of the red tape challenge. led by Mott MacDonald to undertake a study of rail However, we are still interested to hear what cyclists business travellers in order to obtain direct evidence on have to say about those five—and we have recently met the productive use of travel time during the course of with representatives of British Cycling, CTC and the work. The final report “Productive Use of Rail Travel Bicycle Association of Great Britain to discuss the red Time and the Valuation of Travel Time Savings for Rail tape challenge. We are working with everyone across the Business Travellers” was received by the Department in whole road transport sector, as we want to ensure as June 2009. many people as possible get involved. 407W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 408W

WALES Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office does not hold any contracts with Crown Relocations. Freedom of Information Members: Correspondence Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many requests for information under the Teresa Pearce: To ask the Minister for Women and Freedom of Information Act 2000 her office has received Equalities when she plans to respond to the letter from since her appointment; and what the time taken to the hon. Member from Erith and Thamesmead of provide a full response to the request was in each case. 15 March 2011 on her constituent the Reverend Geoff [58507] Clark. [58219]

Mr David Jones: Since my right hon. Friend the Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 8 June 2011]: A Secretary of State for Wales appointment, the Wales response to the hon. Member’s letter on her constituent, Office has received 171 Freedom of Information Act the Reverend Geoff Clark, was made on 2 June 2011. requests. The Act requires a full response within 20 working days or within an agreed extension to undertake a public interest test. For the 2010-11 year, my Department ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS replied to 94% of requests within this deadline, compared Animal Welfare: EU Action to 91% for 2009-10. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has received legal advice on instances where a single EU HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION member state has taken unilateral action on animal welfare matters which has led subsequently to a change Theft of EU policy in line with that action; and if she will make a statement. [58071] Keith Vaz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Mr Paice: There is no central record kept of such Commons Commission, how many cases of theft from legal advices, nor is there any recollection of any occasion the parliamentary estate have resulted in a prosecution where, since coming into office, the Secretary of State in each year since 2006. [57932] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), John Thurso: The following table gives the number of has from within DEFRA received legal advice of instances individual prosecutions for theft from the parliamentary where individual EU member states have taken unilateral estate: action on animal welfare matters which has subsequently led to a change of EU policy in line with that unilateral Number of individuals prosecuted action. for theft Apples 2006 1 2007 0 Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 3 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her 2009 1 Department is taking to encourage stocking of English [58387] 2010 0 apples by supermarkets. 2011 0 Mr Paice: Retailers and apple grower trade associations are working together to meet growing consumer demand Keith Vaz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, for English apples. All fruit and vegetables are required Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of by law to have their country origin on the item, shelf or Commons Commission, what steps the House of the package. In many grocery stores, British apples can Commons Service plans to take to combat recent cases be recognised by the Union Flag on the packaging or of theft from the parliamentary estate. [57933] the liner for boxes of loose apples. The Fruit and Vegetable Taskforce on increasing consumption and John Thurso: We do not comment on the detailed production brought together the whole supply chain to security measures in place across the parliamentary identify and unblock barriers; they reported in summer estate. I would encourage the hon. Member to speak to 2010 and agreed an action plan in October 2010. The the Serjeant at Arms directly. action plan was divided into production, supply chain and consumption: Most recommendations, which are fairly technical, have made significant progress and we are looking to produce an updated progress report later WOMEN AND EQUALITIES in the year. Circuses: Animal Welfare Crown Relocations Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on what date her how many contracts the Government Equalities Office Department removed from its website the impact holds with Crown Relocations; and what the (a) purpose assessment undertaken in respect of regulation of wild and (b) monetary value of each such contract is. [58637] animals acts in travelling circuses. [57419] 409W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 410W

Mr Paice: As a matter of routine documents are only from their own resources and claimed, authorised and held on the consultation section of the DEFRA website paid through the staff expenses system. To identify the for a year after they are first published, so the Impact number would incur additional analysis of all expense Assessment in question was removed shortly after the transactions and this would incur disproportionate cost. end of December 2010. Executive agencies Departmental CCTV Centre for Environment Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS) Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for The numbers of subscription and membership fees Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many CCTV paid is as follows: cameras are installed in and around her Department’s Number of subscriptions/memberships premises; and how much such cameras cost to (a) 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 install and (b) operate in the latest period for which figures are available. [56843] Chartered Institute of 000 Public Relations Other professional 30 35 52 Richard Benyon: We currently have 663 cameras situated 1 at 56 DEFRA locations, but this figure is continually organisations 1 reducing as we have embarked upon an estate rationalisation These include membership of scientific bodies project. Rural Payments Agency The cost of carrying out planned maintenance on the The number of subscription and membership fees cameras alone is currently in the order of £70,000 per paid is as follows: annum excluding reactive repairs which fluctuate in value. 2009-10: 45 The costs of installations are difficult to separately identify as they are normally part of wider project costs. 2010-11: 119. RPA is unable to provide costs for 2008-09 or a Departmental Data Protection breakdown as the information requested could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for RPA has made no payments to the Chartered Institute Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many contracts of Public Relations in the last three years. her Department holds which allow contractors to store Animal Health personal data of UK citizens overseas; to which contracts this applies; in which countries the data for each such The number of subscription and membership fees contract is held; and how many people have their data paid is as follows: stored overseas under each such contract. [55737] Chartered Institute of Public Relations: 2008-09: 0 Richard Benyon: The Department has one contract 2009-10: 5 which permits personal data to be stored overseas on a 2010-11: 2. case by case assessed basis and with written approval. Chartered Institute of Personnel Development: The contract includes a facility for personnel in the core 2008-09:6 Department as well as some Executive Agencies and NDPBs to subscribe to online training, with packages 2009-10:5 covering everything from IT skills to professional 2010-11: 15. development. 889 personnel have subscribed to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons: service and the data is stored in the United States of The subscriptions for this body are in two parts. Part 1 is the America. The purpose of storing the data is so that individual membership and is paid on behalf of our veterinary individuals can access their online training records, the staff. Part 2 is the payment in respect of each of our premises nature of which means that the record of the training which dispense veterinary medicines. undertaken needs to be saved. 2009-10: Individual subscriptions for 328 veterinary staff. Departmental Press: Subscriptions Premises Subscriptions for 48 premises. 2010-11: Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Individual subscriptions for 321 veterinary staff. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many subscription or membership fees for (a) the Chartered Premises subscriptions for 48 premises. Institute of Public Relations and (b) other professional 2011-12 organisations were paid from budgets of her Department Individual subscriptions for 302 veterinary staff. and its agencies in respect of their staff in each of the Premises subscriptions for 48 premises. last three years. [57350] Association of Personnel Assistants 2010-11: 1. Richard Benyon: The Department for Environment, Note: Food and Rural Affairs has made no payments directly to the Chartered Institute of Public Relations in the last This is the first year that this subscription was paid. three years. Association of Chief Executives The Department is, however, unable to identify from 2009-10: 1 central records how many subscription or membership 2010-11: 1. fees have been paid to professional organisations. Most Note: subscriptions and memberships are paid direct by staff These are the only two years this subscription has been paid. 411W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 412W

Veterinary Laboratories Agency (VLA) Accounting has recently estimated that in 2008 greenhouse The number of subscription and membership fees gas emissions relating to UK consumption totalled paid is as follows: 1,076 million tonnes carbon dioxide equivalent. (a) No amounts have been paid to Chartered Institute Origin Marking: Israel of Public Relations (b) Subscription and membership fees paid to other Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for professional organisations, is as follows: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for what reason 2008-09: 204 the guidelines on place of origin labelling issued by her 2009-10: 362 Department on 10 December 2009 do not apply to all 2010-11: 235. products on sale in the UK that originate from Israeli settlements. [58697] Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) The number of subscription and membership fees Mr Paice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I paid is as follows: gave him on 24 May 2011, Official Report, column 548W. (a) No amounts have been paid to Chartered Institute of Public Relations (b) Subscriptions to other professional organisations: HOME DEPARTMENT 2010-11: 40 Asylum 2009-10: 41 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008-09: 35. Home Department how many new asylum cases Food and Environment Research Agency initiated in each year are awaiting resolution. [53756] The number of subscription and membership fees paid is as follows: Damian Green: The following table shows the number of pending asylum applications (made since 1 April 2009 2010 2011 2006) as at 31 March 2011, by year of application. These data include cases with no decision to date and (a) the Chartered Institute 000those with an outstanding appeal. They do not include of Public Relations figures relating to cases that are appeal rights exhausted (b) Other professional 162 135 106 organisations or are awaiting judicial review. Pending applications received for asylum since April 2006 in the United Kingdom as at 31 March 20111, 2, 3, by year of application5 Departmental Responsibilities Total pending Year of Total (including Of whom: Principal Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for application dependants) applicants Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her 4 Department plans to cease to fund any of its functions 2006 315 265 over the period of the comprehensive spending review. 2007 915 725 [55187] 2008 1,830 1,410 2009 2,370 1,860 Richard Benyon: DEFRA is not planning to cease 2010 4,405 3,305 funding of any broad DEFRA functions. However, 2011 4,615 3,630 DEFRA has taken the opportunity presented by the Total 14,450 11,190 spending review to consider those things that only it can 1 Figures rounded to the nearest 5 (‘—’ = 0,*=1or2)andmaynot and must do, and how we can deliver those. Where we sum to the totals shown because of independent rounding. 2 have been carrying out activities that we have decided For the figures which include dependants further disaggregations by age, gender and nationality will be available on the EUROSTAT should no longer be done by DEFRA, we are ceasing website: funding for such work. DEFRA is prioritising its resources http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/statistics/ in order to achieve the priorities in the Department’s search_database Business Plan. As part of the arm’s length bodies review 3 Numbers pending either initial decision or further judicial appeal, we are planning a reduction in the number of bodies but excluding those who have lodged a judicial review 4 Applications received for asylum since 1 April 2006. from over 90 to less than 40. 5 Provisional figures. Further information on asylum is available from the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Control of Immigration publications which are available in the Library of the House and the Home Office Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Science website at: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- she has made of the annual amount of consumption-based statistics greenhouse gas emissions produced by the UK. [57678] In addition, from this summer information on our new asylum performance framework will be published Mr Paice [holding answer 7 June 2011]: In 2008 on a regular basis—with key statistics disaggregated by DEFRA published an evidence study that measured the gender—so that the House and any member of the UK’s carbon dioxide emissions using a consumption-based public can scrutinise what we are achieving and hold us approach, titled “Embedded carbon emissions indicator— to account. It is my intention that these data will EV02033”. We are now carrying out further work to include all unconcluded cases. These will include those update these findings. The Centre for Sustainability that are appeal rights exhausted and those whose 413W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 414W discretionary leave has expired—in addition to those (2) how many cases of extradition of US nationals to awaiting a decision or appeal outcome as identified the UK took place in (a) 2004, (b) 2005, (c) 2006, (d) above. 2007, (e) 2008 and (f) 2009. [58484]

Asylum: Housing Damian Green: Nationality records have not been historically recorded in extradition cases between the Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK and the United States. This is because neither Home Department what measures are in place to country can refuse extradition requests from the other ensure that housing provided by the National Asylum on the basis of the subject’s nationality. Support Service meets the needs of tenants. [58319] The following table shows the number of UK nationals extradited to United States from the UK (England and Damian Green: I refer my hon. Friend to my answer Wales) over the period 2004-2009. of 16 May 2011, Official Report, columns 23-24W. Information regarding the nationality of those extradited to the UK from the United States has not in the past Electronic Surveillance been routinely recorded. Records have been kept since 2007. In that time there are no records of US nationals Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the having been extradited to the UK from the United Home Department what supervision and control processes States in 2007 and 2009. One US national was extradited her Department is putting in place to regulate the use of in 2008. This does not include cases where nationality Geotime and other software used for covert monitoring was disputed or unclear. of the movements of individual citizens. [56359] Number of UK nationals extradited to United States from the UK1 over the period 2004-09 Nick Herbert [holding answer 19 May 2011]: Geotime Number and other similar software provide an analytical tool for the visual representation of data that has already been 2004 2 acquired lawfully for specific purposes from other sources. 2005 6 Anyone using such software to analyse data is bound by 2006 210 the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998 and 2007 0 other relevant legislation. 2008 2 2009 34 Entry Clearances 1 For the purposes of the question, we have taken the “UK” as meaning England and Wales. Scotland deals with its own US cases—as Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home did Northern Ireland until 1 April 2008. 2 Includes one US/UK dual national. Department what recent representations she has received 3 Includes one UK/Iran dual national. on (a) the (i) cost to the visitor and (ii) efficiency of the UK’s tourist visa-processing operations and (b) the Harassment effect of such operations on the visitor economy. [58147] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: UK Border Agency officials meet Home Department (1) how many potential offences regularly with representatives of the tourist industry to under section (a) 2, (b) 3, (c) 4 and (d) 5 of the listen to their views on the visa service offered to Protection from Harassment Act 1997 were recorded in tourists from overseas, and to consider how the service 2009-10; [58315] may be further improved. (2) how many complaints received by police forces of The Government recognise the UK’s position as a potential offences under the Protection from Harassment top global tourist destination and the importance of the Act 1997 during (a) 2009 and (b) 2010 were not visitor route to the UK economy. A total of 1.2 million proceeded with by police forces or prosecutors. [58316] tourist visas were issued last year, up 14 % from 2009. We provide a good visa service to visitors from overseas Lynne Featherstone: Offences recorded under the and our fees and processing times are competitive compared Protection from Harassment Act 1997 are classified with those offered by other countries. Our customer under the Home Office offence classification of service standards for visa processing times are published ‘Harassment’. There were 53,029 offences of harassment on our website recorded in 2009-10. It is not possible to identify centrally http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas how many offences were recorded under each section of as are details of the performance of each of our visa the Act. application centres overseas. We aim to process 90% of Information on the number of complaints that were tourist visas within three weeks and meet this target in not proceeded with is not available centrally. the vast majority of cases Nevertheless, we continue to look at ways of improving the service further while Visas: Appeals maintaining the security of our border. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Extradition Home Department what consideration she has given to removing the right of appeal for people who have been Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home refused visas to enter the UK for up to six months; and Department (1) how many UK nationals were extradited what assessment she has made of the effect of to the US in (a) 2004, (b) 2005, (c) 2006, (d) 2007, (e) implementation of such a measure on the number of 2008 and (f) 2009; [58483] people who will reapply. [57983] 415W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 416W

Damian Green: The refusal of a visa to enter the UK following table shows the average length of time to find for up to six months attracts a full right of appeal only post-service employment in each year since then, based where the applicant is applying to visit a family member. on a selected sample. In all other categories of temporary entry clearance the right of appeal is limited to human rights and race Number of days to gain employment relations grounds. Bringing the right of appeal for 2005-06 37 persons seeking to visit family members into line with 2006-07 42 all other temporary visit visas is clearly an important 2007-08 33 area where we would want to seek wide views and on 2008-09 32 which we would wish to consult formally. 2009-10 55 It is open to someone who has been refused a visa to visit a family member to apply again and provide further information in support of their application that addresses Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the reasons why their initial application was refused, which Defence in what sectors armed forces veterans found are set out in a comprehensive written refusal. Entry post-service employment in the latest period for which clearance staff work to a service standard of concluding figures are available. [58517] 90% of visit visa applications within 15 days (performance was 95% in 2010-11), so the outcome of a second Mr Robathan: In 2010, service leavers found post-service application will be known much sooner than the outcome employment within 44 industry sectors across the public, of an appeal. We have not carried out an assessment of private and voluntary/community sets. These industry whether all those who currently appeal would reapply, sectors are diverse and range from accountancy and were the appeal right in this category removed. finance through to sports and leisure. British Sovereign Base DEFENCE Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Employment Defence whether Lord Ashcroft will be given an official level of security clearance as senior independent Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for adviser to the study of British sovereign base areas in Defence what percentage of armed forces veterans left Cyprus. [58514] the armed forces and found employment in each year since 2000. [58515] Dr Fox: The noble Lord, Lord Ashcroft has been given the appropriate security clearance. Mr Robathan: All service personnel are entitled to some form of resettlement support either at unit level or through the Career Transition Partnership (CTP), with EU Defence Policy lifetime job finding support through either the Officers’ Association or the Regular Forces Employment Association. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Based on a survey of service leavers, who were entitled Defence what assessment he has made of the European to resettlement provision through the CTP, the following Defence Agency’s interim report on the EU’s Common table shows those who found employment within six Security and Defence Policy. [57866] months of being discharged. Mr Gerald Howarth: The Government broadly welcome Employed within six months of discharge (percentage) the interim report on “Common Security and Defence

2000 95 Policy/military elements” issued by High Representative 2001 95 Baroness Ashton as a contribution to the debate, in 2002 95 particular its focus on improving EU/NATO relations 2003 96 and more effective capability development by European 2004 96 partners. However, we have expressed our reservations 2005 94 on the report’s proposals for discussions on increasing 2006 95 the scope for common funding of battlegroups as we 2007 96 have consistently made clear our opposition to such 2008 93 common funding. Discussions on these topics will continue 2009 93 with EU partners as part of the ongoing policy debate.

A limited amount of employment information exists Military Alliances for those service leavers who were not entitled to resettlement provision through the CTP. Since 1 April 2006 , we Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate that some 77% of service leavers in this group Defence what recent discussions he has had with his gained employment within six months of leaving. European counterparts on the pooling and sharing of Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for military assets. [57867] Defence what the average length of time was for armed forces veterans to find post-service employment in each Mr Gerald Howarth: The Secretary of State for Defence, year since 2000. [58516] my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), has regular discussions with his European Mr Robathan: Information on the length of time to counterparts on pooling and sharing. We believe that it find employment is not held prior to 1 April 2005. The is important that the UK seeks and exploits all opportunities 417W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 418W to promote greater burden sharing and increased for crimes against humanity. Whether the detainees cooperation, in order to optimise capability development were part of a US program is a matter for the US to in Europe, comment on. More specifically, I attended the EU Foreign Affairs Council in Defence Ministers’ formation on 24 May 2011, which included pooling and sharing as a topic for WORK AND PENSIONS discussion. The UK took the opportunity at the discussions to re-emphasize the point that national commitments to Attendance Allowance any pooling and sharing initiatives must be voluntary, consistent with the fact that each member of the Council Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work is a sovereign nation state. and Pensions if he will consider the merits of introducing a mobility component of attendance allowance to ensure Regulation that a person with mobility needs is eligible for the same level of financial support at the age of 65 as they are Mr Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence at 64. [58628] what the name is of each body responsible for regulation of operations at his Department’s site at Coulport; and Maria Miller: We have no plans to amend the entitlement what plans each has for regulation of the site. [58508] conditions for attendance allowance to introduce a mobility component. It is normal for pensions and Peter Luff: There are a number of internal and external benefit schemes to contain different provisions for people bodies responsible for regulation of operations at Royal at different stages of their lives. Disability living allowance, Naval Armaments Depot (RNAD) Coulport. The external which has a mobility component, is intended to focus bodies are the Health and Safety Executive, including additional help with the extra cost of disability on their nuclear arm, the Office of Nuclear Regulation; the people who have the very considerable disadvantage of Scottish Environment Protection Agency; and local being severely disabled earlier in life and who as a authorities. These bodies are responsible for developing consequence have less opportunity to work, earn and their own plans for the regulation of the site, but we save compared to non-disabled people. work in close co-operation with them. If a person claims disability living allowance, including the mobility component, before their 65th birthday, it Internal Ministry of Defence (MOD) regulators include can remain in payment beyond age 65 as long as the the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator, the Defence conditions of entitlement remain satisfied. Ordnance Safety Group, the Fuel and Gas Safety Regulator, and the Defence Fire and Risk Management Organisation. Attendance allowance provides help with the disability- The MOD plans to maintain continuity of regulation related extra costs of people who experience the onset during the transition to, and following the implementation of disability after age 65. Based on the need for personal of, the new arrangements at RNAD Coulport. care, this help is part of the wide range of support that the Government make available to older people so that Research they can have a decent and secure income in retirement. Disability Living Allowance Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what (a) longitudinal and (b) other (i) research and (ii) Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for collection of data his Department has (A) initiated, (B) Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with terminated and (C) amended in the last 12 months; and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and what such research and data collection exercises undertaken Skills on disability benefits. [58462] by the Department have not been amended in that period. [56755] Chris Grayling: The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford Peter Luff: This information is not held centrally and and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), has regular could be provided only at disproportionate cost. discussions with Cabinet colleagues and other stakeholders to discuss a range of issues, including disability benefits. Terrorism: Detainees Future Jobs Fund: Kirklees Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to the answer of 1 September 2004, Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, columns 715-6W, on the Ministry of Work and Pensions how many people in Kirklees have Defence, what the locations are of the two high value been placed in employment through the Future Jobs detainees; whether the classification of the two detainees Fund. [56665] as high value was a UK or US classification; and whether the two detainees were part of the US High Chris Grayling: The most recent Young Person’s Value Terrorist Detainee Program. [54857] Guarantee statistics were published on 13 April 2011. Statistics are available on the Future Jobs Fund which Nick Harvey [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The two covers the period from October 2009 to the end of individuals referred to were both very senior Iraqi members January 2011. of Saddam Hussein’s regime. I can confirm that the UK There have been a total of 690 FJF funded temporary would classify them both as high value detainees. One placements within the Kirklees local authority area of them is currently serving 15 years in prison in Baghdad, between October 2009 and January 2011 having been convicted of several different offences. The A breakdown of this information can be found in the other was executed by the Iraqi authorities in early 2010 following table. 419W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 420W

Number of people in the Kirklees local authority that have started FJF funded much has been reclaimed in each such month; and what employment since October 2009 proportion of the monetary value of its contract with Starts Atos the total sum reclaimed represents. [58506] October 2009 * November 2009 20 Chris Grayling: Since May 2010 the Department has December 2009 20 not needed to claim any money back from Atos Healthcare January 2010 20 as they have met all of their targets for medical advice. February 2010 30 March 2010 60 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work April 2010 20 and Pensions what his policy is on the criteria to determine May 2010 40 whether responses to freedom of information requests June 2010 40 prejudice the interest of Atos Healthcare and the July 2010 60 Department’s future dealings with Atos Healthcare or August 2010 60 other service providers. [58544] September 2010 80 October 2010 50 Chris Grayling: The policy of my Department is to November 2010’ 80 fully comply with our obligations under the Freedom of December 2010 40 Information Act. We look to ensure that information January 2011 90 shared is properly assessed for privacy, confidentiality Total 690 (including that of service providers), commercial and Notes: public interest and consider each on a “case by case” 1. Data Source—DWP LMS opportunities evaluation database April 2011. basis. Where information is requested that is prejudicial 2. Due to Data Protection protocols, values less than 10 are suppressed and marked with a ‘*’ to avoid unnecessary disclosure. Additionally, any figures to this criteria the Department will consider exemptions above 10 are rounded to the nearest 10. Due to rounding, totals may not be the under the Freedom of Information Act. sum of the individual cells. Months are calendar months. Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Jobseekers, Disability and Work Programme Members: Correspondence Division Income Support: Young People Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when the Minister for Employment Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work plans to respond to the letters from the hon. Member and Pensions how many young people aged between 16 for Weaver Vale of 22 June 2010 and 8 March 2011 on and 18 years were in receipt of income support in each behalf of his constituent Mr Mark Tansley. [58304] category in the last 12 months for which figures are available. [58611] Chris Grayling: Due to an administrative error no reply was sent to my hon. Friend in response to his Chris Grayling: The information requested is given as letter of 22 June 2010 and I apologise for that oversight. follows. However, I understand that a Jobcentre Plus official Income support 16 to 18-year-old claimants by statistical group in Great Britain, replied on the same matter direct to my hon. Friend’s each quarter February 2010 to November 2010 constituent in response to a separate, related e-mail. All 16 to A reply to the letter of 8 March 2011 was sent to my 18-year- olds Others hon. Friend on 13 April 2011. receiving Incapacity Lone receiving IS benefits parent Carer IS Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work February 40,730 650 15,660 770 23,650 and Pensions when he plans to respond to the letter 2010 from the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire dated May 40,060 400 15,690 740 23,220 13 July 210, reference JS8612. [58486] 2010 August 39,060 200 15,060 730 23,060 2010 Steve Webb: Regrettably, due to an administrative November 39,170 140 15,120 780 23,130 error a reply was not sent to the hon. Member until 2010 9 June 2011 and I apologise for that oversight. Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Data have been compiled using the claimant’s Income Support Statistical Group, this is a hierarchical variable. A person who fits into more than one Work and Pensions when he plans to respond to the category will only appear in the top-most one for which they are eligible. letter from the hon. Member for Edinburgh West of 3. Lone parents are defined as claimants on income support with child under 17 February 2011 on support for mortgage interest. 16 and no partner. Lone parent obligations were introduced from 24 November 2008 affecting the age of the youngest child. [58561] 4. Incapacity benefits are defined as those receiving incapacity benefit or disability living allowance. Chris Grayling: A reply was sent to the hon. Member 5. Carers are defined as those receiving carer’s allowance. Source: on 1 March 2011. 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study data. Managing Agents Mortgages: Barnsley

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions on how many occasions his Department Work and Pensions how many people in Barnsley East has reclaimed money from Atos as a result of unsatisfactory constituency received support for mortgage interest medical advice in each month since May 2010; how payments in each of the last five years. [58138] 421W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 422W

Steve Webb: Claimants receiving help with mortgage qualifying age for pension credit, 90,000 of these claimants interest in Barnsley East parliamentary constituency are male and 10,000 are female. are as follows: Pensioners: Poverty Total claimants receiving mortgage interest Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and November 2006 500 Pensions how many and what proportion of pensioners lived August 2007 500 in poverty in each year between 1981 and 2004. [58363] November 2008 1400 November 2009 1400 Steve Webb: Estimates of pensioner poverty are published November 2010 1300 in the Households Below Average Incomes series. The 1 Numbers are based on very few sample cases and are subject to a high degree most commonly used measure of pensioner poverty of sampling variation, therefore these figures should be used as a guide only. relates to those people with income below 60% of Notes: contemporary median household income, after housing 1. Caseloads are rounded to the nearest 100. 2. Figures are based on 5% sample data. All figures are subject to a degree of costs. This is often referred to as relative poverty. sampling variation. 4. ‘—’ denotes nil or negligible. The latest year of data which is available is 2009-10. 5. Caseload figures have been uprated by using 5% proportions against 100% The following table shows the number and percentage WPLS data. of pensioners with income below 60% of contemporary 6. Figures provided are a point in time estimate at November in each year 2006 and 2008 to 2010. No figures are available for November 2007, therefore we median household income, after housing costs from have provided figures as at August 2007. 1981 to 2004. 7. Figures shown above are for Barnsley East for the period November 2010. Prior to this period the parliamentary constituency was named Barnsley East Table 1: Number and proportion of pensioners falling below 60% of and Mexborough. contemporary median household income, after housing costs (AHC) Source: Publication Period Number (million) Percentage Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5% samples. Work & Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) 100% data. FES(UK) 1981 1.9 20 1987 2.9 29 Pension Credit 1988 and 1989 3.9 39 1990 and 1991 3.7 36 Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for 1991 and 1992 3.4 33 Work and Pensions (1) if he will prepare and publish 1992 and 1993 3.1 31 an impact assessment in respect of the proposals in the Welfare Reform Bill affecting the qualifying age and 1993-94 to 1994-95 3.0 29 entitlement to pension credit; [58493] FRS (GB) 1994-95 2.8 28 1995-96 2.8 28 (2) if he will estimate the saving which would accrue to the Exchequer if entitlement to pension credit were 1996-97 2.9 29 removed from an individual who reached qualifying 1997-98 2.9 29 age and were a member of a couple the other member FRS (UK) 1998-99 2.9 29 of which had not attained the qualifying age; [58749] 1999-2000 2.8 28 (3) if he will estimate the average change in income to 2000-01 2.7 26 (a) the individual and (b) the couple who would no 2001-02 2.7 26 longer be entitled to pension credit if entitlement to 2002-03 2.5 24 pension credit were removed from an individual who reached qualifying age and was a member of a couple 2003-04 2.2 21 the other member of which had not attained the qualifying 2004-05 1.9 18 age; [58750] Notes: 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) (4) how many (a) men and (b) women would no series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS) and Family Expenditure longer be entitled to pension credit if entitlement to Survey (FES). 2. FRS figures are for Great Britain up to 1997-98, and for the United Kingdom pension credit were removed from individuals who reached from 1998-99, with estimates for Northern Ireland imputed for the years qualifying age but were members of a couple the other 1998-99 through 2001-02. The reference period for FRS figures is single member of which had not attained the qualifying age in financial years. 3. FES figures are for the United Kingdom. These are single calendar years for each year between 2013 and 2020. [58751] 1981, and 1987; two combined calendar years from 1988 to 1993 and two financial years combined from 1993-94 to 1994-95. 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to uncertainty. Steve Webb: In the Welfare Reform Bill we are taking Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by powers to restrict access to pension credit for couples sampling error and variability in non-response. where one member of the couple is below the qualifying 5. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions publication “Households age for pension credit. Below Average Income” (HBAI) series, which uses disposable household income, adjusted (or “equivalised”) for household size and composition, as an income We are still considering a range of policy issues measure as a proxy for standard of living. relating to couples in this situation. We will publish 6. For the Households Below Average Income series, incomes have been further information once the policy has been finalised. equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) modified equivalisation factors. We recognise that it is important not to undermine 7. Proportions of pensioners in low-income households have been rounded to the stability and outcomes for existing pension credit the nearest whole percentage point and numbers of pensioners have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. customers, so there will be no change for couples already 8. These statistics are publicly available in the Households Below Average in receipt of pension credit at the point of change. Income Report on the DWP website: http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/ index.php?page=hbai There are currently around 100,000 claims to pension Source: credit from couples where one member is below the Households Below Average Income, DWP. 423W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 424W

Poverty DWP will support further investment in innovative action from local partners which have the scope to Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work improve children’s and families’ outcomes. We will look and Pensions what steps he is taking to reduce levels of to expand existing initiatives which challenge public in-work poverty. [57571] service commissioners and providers to seek value for money and deliver local solutions to local problems. Chris Grayling: Universal credit will reduce the number Shared Housing of individuals in poverty. On reasonable assumptions, the combined impact of take-up and entitlements might lift around 950,000 individuals out of poverty, including Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 350,000 children and more than 600,000 working-age Work and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of adults, the vast majority of these people are likely to be the number of units of shared accommodation in working households. available (a) nationally and (b) in each local authority area; [58053] Poverty: Children (2) with reference to Table 4 of his Department’s impact assessment on Increasing the shared accommodation rate age threshold to 35, what estimate he has made of Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the number of additional units of shared accommodation and Pensions what resources his Department expects to available in Brighton and Hove. [58055] allocate to the implementation of measures set out his Department’s report in A New Approach to Child Steve Webb: No national or local estimate has been Poverty: Tackling the Causes of Disadvantage and made of the availability of shared accommodation. Transforming Families’ Lives in each of the next three years. [57651] In Table 4 of the impact assessment it is estimated that 840 claimants would have their entitlement reduced Maria Miller: The first national child poverty strategy to the shared accommodation rate, but not all of these fulfils the Government’s obligations under the Child will necessarily seek to move into shared accommodation. Poverty Act 2010 and sets out our plans for tackling Some will seek to move to shared accommodation but child poverty from 2011-14. The strategy also provides others may move in with their family or partner, or find a comprehensive framework for ending child poverty in work in order to afford self-contained accommodation. the longer term and clearly demonstrates how Government No estimate has been made of the availability of Departments must work together to address and overcome additional shared accommodation following the increase the key drivers of poverty. in the age threshold, which will depend on the responses The publication of the strategy was set against the of claimants and landlords to the extension of the backdrop of a huge deficit that this Government inherited shared accommodation rate to the 25 to 34 age group. and a challenging spending review that placed a high priority on improving the life chances of children and Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work protection of vulnerable families while also making and Pensions what estimate he has made of the costs to crucial progress in reducing the nation’s fiscal debt. the discretionary housing payments budget of supporting individuals aged 25 to 34 years affected by the extension The Government’s new strategic direction will dismantle of the shared accommodation rate who are judged the powerful barriers that keep most disadvantaged unable to live in shared accommodation. [58054] families stuck in cycles of poverty. Failure to do so will condemn some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged Steve Webb: Claimants who receive the severe disability members of our society to repeatedly finding themselves premium will continue to be exempt from the shared on one or more of the established pathways to poverty. accommodation rate, as will those who have an overnight We are resolute in our determination to tackle these carer, so it remains the case that people with the most key drivers of poverty and as such the Government severe disabilities will not be expected to move into have: shared accommodation, and that the costs of their Set aside £2 billion of Department for Work and Pensions accommodation will be met without recourse to the spending review settlement over the next four years to fund the discretionary housing payments budget. implementation of the universal credit. Beyond the existing exemptions, the Department does Established the Work programme, which will offer people not set criteria by which claimants are considered to be seeking employment targeted, personalised help, delivered by contractors drawn from across the private, public and voluntary unable to move into shared accommodation. sectors, as well as social enterprises. Work programme contractors Local authorities are responsible for deciding, based are paid for results, so the cost of the programme will depend on on any supporting information provided by the claimant, performance, but is expected to be between £3 billion and £5 whether a claimant’s particular circumstances warrant billion. further financial assistance through a discretionary housing Introduced a number of initiatives specifically targeted at the payment. No estimate has been made of the cost to the most vulnerable children and families in our society: discretionary housing payment budget. the Fairness Premium worth £7.2 billion over the spending review period. Shared Housing: Blackpool the Pupil Premium worth £2.5 billion a year to 2014-15. the Early Intervention Grant worth £2,222 million in 2011-12 Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for and £2,037 million in 2012-13. Work and Pensions what assessment his Department the 16-19 Bursary Fund which guarantees the most vulnerable has made of the (a) demand for and (b) supply of 16 to 19-year-olds bursaries of £1,200 a year. shared accommodation in Blackpool in its planning for 425W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 426W the introduction of the new shared accommodation A package of transitional protection is being developed rate of housing benefit for single people under 35 years in order to ensure that there will be no cash losers old. [57997] purely as a result of the move to universal credit where circumstances remain the same. Steve Webb: Based on analysis of the local housing allowance case load in March 2010, it is estimated that Work Capability Assessment 720 claimants in Blackpool would have their local housing allowance reduced to the shared accommodation rate. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of work capability No assessment has been made of the impact on assessments made in the last 12 months have been demand for shared accommodation, which will depend undertaken by (a) doctors, (b) nurses and (c) others. on how claimants respond to their lower rate of housing [58505] benefit. Some will seek to move to shared accommodation but others may move in with their family or partner, or Chris Grayling: Between 1 June 2010 and 31 May find work in order to afford self-contained accommodation. 2011 the proportion of work capability assessments No assessment has been made of the supply of shared undertaken was as follows: accommodation in Blackpool. This will depend on the (a) 44.2% (doctors); responses of claimants and landlords to the reduced (b) 52.8% (nurses); local housing allowance entitlement. (c) 3% (others). Source: Equality impact assessment of the increase to the shared accommodation rate age threshold, available on the DWP website at: FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-hb-shared-accommodation- Departmental Manpower age-threshold.pdf Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security Benefits: Disability Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy to publish monthly information on changes Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the numbers of his Department’s employees categorised and Pensions if he will bring forward proposals to by (a) seniority, (b) voluntary redundancy, (c) natural encourage high street chemists to promote awareness of wastage and (d) involuntary redundancy. [57610] the eligibility of those on disability benefits to buy medical products at zero rate value added tax. [54278] Mr Bellingham: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has no current plans to publish this information, Maria Miller: Those receiving DLA are eligible for a but is committed to transparency and the availability of wide range of additional benefits, which are detailed in data and will keep this under review. an information leaflet issued to all those receiving an Departmental Research award notice for DLA. The leaflet includes links to the Directgov website where advice on medical products at Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign zero rate VAT can be found. and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) longitudinal and (b) other (i) research and (ii) collection of data his Universal Credit Department has (A) initiated, (B) terminated and (C) amended in the last 12 months; and what such research Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for and data collection exercises undertaken by the Department Work and Pensions if he will estimate (a) the total have not been amended in that period. [56770] number of families (i) working 16 or more and (ii) Mr Lidington: Information in the form requested is fewer than 16 hours per week which would be better off not available centrally and cannot be provided without or worse off and (b) the average amount by which they disproportionate cost. would be better off or worse off, should child care support through the universal credit be provided at (1) Iraq: Iran 70 per cent. of child care costs up to £125 for one child and £210 for two or more children and (2) 80 per cent. Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of child care costs up to £100 for one child and £150 for and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made two or more children, excluding any broader impact of representations to the government of Iraq on the the transition to universal credit. [58744] loudspeakers around Camp Ashraf; and if he will make a statement. [57911] Maria Miller: Universal credit is an integrated working- age benefit that will provide a basic allowance with Alistair Burt: Our embassy officials have noted the additional elements for disability, caring responsibilities, presence of loudspeakers at the entrance to Camp housing costs and children. Therefore, households will Ashraf. The Government of Iraq have told us that the receive one payment of universal credit rather than purpose of the loudspeakers is to allow family members separate payments for the different elements. to communicate with relatives inside the camp. As a consequence, separating the child care element We regularly discuss the situation of Camp Ashraf from the broader impact of universal credit as a whole with our international partners and have repeatedly could give a misleading impression of whether a household pressed the Government of Iraq to ensure the human would be better off under universal credit. rights of the residents of Camp Ashraf are respected. 427W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 428W

Israel: Borders Israel and Palestine—based on 1967 borders. But his new government has yet to be formed. The UK will Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of judge a future Palestinian government by its actions State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what and its readiness to work for peace. recent discussions he has had with his Israeli counterpart on the defence of the borders of Israel; Senegal: Prisoners and if he will make a statement. [58488] George Eustice: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: In the run-up to demonstrations on 15 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British May and 5 June, the embassy in Tel Aviv spoke to citizens are imprisoned in Senegal. [58003] Israeli Defence Minister Barak as well as to officials in the Prime Minister’s Office, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israeli Defence Forces to urge restraint. Mr Bellingham: Our embassy in Senegal is aware of Israeli officials said that security forces would act with two British nationals imprisoned in Senegal. maximum restraint, but stressed the need to protect Israeli citizens. Sudan: Politics and Government Our embassies in Amman, Beirut, Cairo, Damascus and Jerusalem, also lobbied their hosts, underlining the Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for need to avoid provocative actions. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent I refer my hon. friend to the statement issued by the reports he has received on the situation in Abyei. Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth [58748] Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) on 6 June. Mr Bellingham: We are deeply concerned at the outbreak Libya: Armed Conflict of violence in Abyei, and have been monitoring the situation closely. Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign We are aware of reports of the large numbers of and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has displaced people from Abyei. At present, lack of access made of the merits of seeking changes to the rules of hinders accurate humanitarian needs assessment, but engagement in respect of military action in Libya to Non Governmental Organisations and the United Nations allow direct attacks on infrastructure supporting the (UN) are ready to respond once security and access Gadaffi Government; what discussions he has had with allows. We are working with the UN to ensure that once NATO counterparts on this issue; and if he will place security and access is granted, assistance will reach in the Library a copy of any legal advice received on these displaced civilians. The UN has reserves of both this matter. [57098] shelter and food for such situations. My right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: Any military action in Libya must be International Development and the Secretary of State carried out in accordance with Resolution 1973 of the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs met with the United Nations Security Council, and the Government Sudanese Foreign Minister Karti on 6 June, and I held a has made clear that they will ensure that any action by further meeting with him on 7 June. We urged the British forces in Libya is lawful. We keep in close and Government of Sudan to fully withdraw their armed regular touch with our North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forces from Abyei. allies on all aspects of military operations in Libya. Together with our international partners, we are calling on both parties to return to the African Union facilitated Middle East: Peace Negotiations negotiations to resolve their differences.

Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Syrian Arab Republic: Borders Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what steps he is taking with his international counterparts to ensure that Hamas accepts each of the Quartet Principles Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for before participating in any negotiations between the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority; reports he has received on border incidents in the and if he will make a statement; [58252] Golan Heights. [58745] (2) what assessment he has made of the potential implications of the accord between Fatah and Hamas Alistair Burt: As the Secretary of State for Foreign on the ability of the Palestinian Authority to return to and Commonwealth Affairs said in his statement of 6 peace negotiations. [58253] June 2011, Official Report, columns 31-35, we are deeply concerned by reports that a number of protesters have Alistair Burt: We have been absolutely clear—as has been killed and others injured following protests in the the rest of the international community—that we expect Golan Heights. We recognise Israel’s right to defend to see a government that rejects violence and pursues a herself. It is vital that any response is proportionate, negotiated peace. Mahmoud Abbas as both head of the avoiding lethal use of force unless absolutely necessary, Palestinian Liberation Organisation and President of and that the right to protest is respected. I continue to the Palestinian Authority reaffirmed his commitment to call on all parties, including the Governments of Israel those principles in Cairo on 4 May 2011. He also and Syria, to do everything they can to protect the lives reiterated that he is committed to a two-state solution— of civilians and to avoid provocative acts. 429W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 430W

Syrian Arab Republic: Human Rights (4) if he will ask HM Ambassador to Morocco to raise with the Moroccan authorities alleged attacks by the Moroccan police on unemployed Saharawi graduates Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for in Boujdour, Western Sahara on 7 May 2011. [57517] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of reports of human rights abuses in Alistair Burt: UN Security Council Resolution 1979 Syria. [58747] on United Nations Mission for the Referendum in Western Sahara’s (MINURSO) operations, passed on Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to the statement 27 April 2011, contains language on made on 7 June 2011, Official Report, column 32, by the “the importance of improving the human rights situation in Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Western Sahara and the Tindouf camps” Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and (York) (Mr Hague). “encourages the parties to develop independent and credible measures to ensure full respect for human rights.” Trade Unions Morocco has recently created a National Council for Human Rights (CNDH) with an office in Laayoune, Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Western Sahara. We would expect the CNDH to investigate Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his allegations of human rights abuses in Western Sahara Department has provided any financial support to (a) and will be monitoring the performance of this new the National Union of Teachers, (b) the National institution. Officials from our embassy in Rabat also Association of Schoolmasters and Union of Women travel to Western Sahara on a regular basis. Teachers, (c) the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, The EU Delegation in Rabat conducts enhanced (d) the National Association of Head Teachers and (e) dialogue with human rights defenders from Morocco schemes run by those organisations in each year since and Western Sahara, in which British officials are closely 1997. [56408] involved. There is a regular EU-Morocco human rights dialogue and we will continue to discuss human rights Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office with Morocco bilaterally and with EU partners. (FCO) has no record of providing any financial support to the specified organisations or schemes run by them. Yemen: Politics and Government However, budgets in the FCO are devolved to over 260 Posts overseas and as details are not held centrally, Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for this information could be obtained only at disproportionate Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment cost. he has made of the political situation in Yemen. [58746]

UN Security Council Mr Jeremy Browne: The situation in Yemenis extremely uncertain following the attack on President Saleh on 3 June who is currently receiving medical treatment in Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Saudi Arabia. Saleh’s departure brought an end to and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish the legal 10 days of heavy fighting. advice he has received on the definition of command and control structures, as opposed to infrastructure, in We welcome the announcement of the transfer of the interpretation of UN Security Council Resolution authority to the Vice President and urge him to take 1973. [57097] advantage of this relative calm, working closely with all sides, to implement the Gulf Co-operation Council Agreement and to begin political transition now. Alistair Burt: No. Any such legal advice would be privileged. We urge all sides to continue showing restraint and seek dialogue as the way forward. We support the efforts of the GCC to get all Yemeni sides to agree to a Western Sahara: Human Rights transitional process. We hope now that, with Saleh in Riyadh there will be a real chance for transition to Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for happen. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) if he will ask HM Ambassador to Morocco to raise with the Moroccan authorities allegations of torture, ill treatment and sexual assault of Abid Abou Jihad by a Moroccan police unit; DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER [57514] (2) if he will ask HM Ambassador to Morocco to Departmental Pay raise with the Moroccan authorities the number of complaints of human rights violations filed since 2006 John Mann: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what by Saharawi people at the Court of El-Aaiun that the annual salary cost is of staff in his private office; mention Corporal Mohamad Elhasouni; [57515] and what the cost was of salaries in the Deputy Prime (3) if he will ask HM Ambassador to Morocco to Minister’s Office in each year from 2007-08 to 2009-10. raise with the Moroccan authorities (a) protests organised [7889] by Saharawi people on human rights and (b) arrests at the regional office of the Moroccan National Council The Deputy Prime Minister: The total staffing cost for Human Rights; [57516] for my office in 2010-11 was £1,028,487. 431W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 432W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Davey: UK quoted companies are required under company law to disclose the members of their remuneration North East Local Economic Partnership committees and the advisers to those committees. The Financial Reporting Council’s UK Corporate 21. Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for Governance Code includes principles and provisions on Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has the role and membership of the remuneration committee. made of progress in establishing the North East local Annex A to the code gives guidance about the design of economic partnership; and if he will make a statement. performance-related remuneration for executive directors. [57799] Export Credits Guarantee Department Mr Prisk: The North Eastern local enterprise partnership was asked to form its board in January. Paul Walker, former CEO of Sage plc, has been appointed as interim Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for chair and is overseeing the recruitment of the formal Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make the board. It is anticipated that this will be in place shortly. carrying out of an impact analysis a pre-condition for all projects supported by the Export Credits Guarantee ESOL Department. [58478]

22. Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: ECGD undertakes impact analysis for Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to projects that fall within the ambit of the OECD “Revised publish the equality impact assessment undertaken on Council Recommendation on Common Approaches on his Department’s co-financing proposals for courses in the Environment and Officially Supported Export Credits” English for speakers of other languages. [57800] and the OECD “Principles and Guidelines to Promote Sustainable Lending Practices in the Provision of Official Mr Hayes: I am determined to reform English for Export Credits to Low Income Countries”. Speakers of Other Languages to make it fairer for people such as those in the hon. Lady’s constituency, Export Credits Guarantee Department: Developing ensuring improved outcomes and better value for money. Countries That is why I chose, as I was able, to inform the House in a debate on 3 May 2011, Official Report, columns Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for 209-12WH, the Department expects to publish an equality Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has impact assessment before the summer recess. made of the debt owed by developing countries to the Export Credits Guarantee Department. [58481] Regional Growth Fund Mr Davey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has Gwynne) on 24 May 2011, Official Report, column 645W. been made on the second round of allocations from the regional growth fund; and if he will make a statement. Export Credits Guarantee Department: Human Rights [57796] Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: The second round of the regional growth Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has any fund is worth just under £1 billion and bids must be plans to adopt mandatory standards on human rights received before 1 July 2011. Applicants are able to as part of the remit of the Export Credits Guarantee attend a series of roadshows, chaired by Lord Heseltine Department. [58479] and Sir Ian Wrigglesworth, which offer advice and support to prospective bidders. These roadshows have Mr Davey: The Export Credit Guarantees Department been heavily subscribed. (ECGD) considers the human rights impacts of the One North East projects that fall within the ambit of the OECD ‘Revised Council Recommendation on Common Approaches on Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment and Officially Supported Export Credits’, Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has which require projects to be benchmarked against made of the opportunity costs of the sale on the open international standards, usually those of the World market of the assets held by One North East; and if he Bank Group. The standards cover labour and working conditions, community health and safety, land acquisition will make a statement. [57798] and involuntary resettlement, indigenous peoples, etc. Mr Prisk: There is no opportunity cost. Where regional development agency assets are being sold it is either Export Credits Guarantee Department: Technology because their regeneration is complete, or because the purchaser is well-placed to continue their development. Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has any Companies: Pay plans to include green technology products in the remit of the Export Credits Guarantee Department. [58480] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what guidance his Mr Davey: The Export Credits Guarantee Department Department issues on the governance of remuneration is already able to support exports of green technology committees of limited companies. [58457] products. 433W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 434W

Export Credits Guarantees Department: Arms Trade Nuclear Engineering: Higher Education

Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will prohibit Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has support for (a) arms and (b) fossil fuels from the made of the number of (a) vacancies on university Export Credits Guarantee Department. [58477] courses and (b) graduates in nuclear engineering in each of the next five years. [57282] Mr Davey: No. A blanket ban that would exclude whole classes of exports from being able to access Mr Willetts: This information is not available; we do support from the Export Credits Guarantee Department not plan for the number of students at a course, subject (ECGD) would be unlawful under ECGD’s Act. ECGD or institutional level. The actual number of places on considers defence and fossil fuel related exports in nuclear engineering courses will depend on the decisions accordance with its risk standards and its international of individual universities. We expect the total number of obligations (e.g. those relating to anti-bribery and corruption places on all courses in 2011/12 to be broadly similar to and environmental, social and human rights standards) 2010/11. to determine whether or not it can provide support for Space Technology individual transactions. Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Global Positioning System: Earthquakes Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to promote economic growth in the space sector. [57788] Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: The space sector is an important and Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has dynamic part of our economy, growing at 8% a year. had with (a) the US administration and (b) his EU The Government are backing it with £850 million over counterparts on the effects of recent earthquakes on four years. We also announced more measures for the the calibration of global positioning systems; and if he space industry in the Budget, including removing regulatory will make a statement. [58025] barriers and £10 million to start the national space technology strategy programme and to accelerate the Mr Willetts: I have not had any discussions with development of the International Space Innovation Centre either the US administration or EU counterparts on the at Harwell. We have also implemented the creation of effects of recent earthquakes on the calibration of global the new UK Space Agency, which will deliver economic positioning systems. growth by supporting industry to increase the UK’s The recent earthquake in Japan has had a small effect high value space activities. on the shape of the Earth which has required their mapping agencies to undertake a readjustment of their geodetic network. This has already taken place. No CABINET OFFICE changes are required to satellite navigation systems as the effect was insignificant compared with annual variations Lung Cancer in the Earth’s shape. Mr Baron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Local Enterprise Partnerships (1) what the incidence rate for lung cancer among (a) men and (b) women (i) in each primary care trust, (ii) in each cancer network and (iii) in England was in the Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for last five years for which figures are available; [57950] Business, Innovation and Skills what the legal status is (2) what the incidence rate for lung cancer in people of a local enterprise partnership. [58459] aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) 80 years and Mr Prisk: As set out in the Local Growth White over (i) in each primary care trust, (ii) in each cancer Paper the Government do not intend to define local network and (iii) in England was in the last five years enterprise partnerships in legislation. The constitution for which figures are available. [57951] and legal status of each partnership will be a matter for the partners, informed by the activities that they wish to Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the pursue. responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Local Enterprise Partnerships: Public Appointments Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated June 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking: Business, Innovation and Skills what guidance his 1. What the incidence rate for lung cancer among (a) men and Department provides to local enterprise partnerships (b) women (i) in each primary care trust, (ii) in each cancer on the appointment of board members. [58455] network and (iii) in England was in the last five years for which figures are available. [57950] Mr Prisk: The guidance this Department provides to 2. What the incidence rate for lung cancer in people aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to local enterprise partnerships on the appointment of 79 years and (e) 80 years and over (i) in each primary care trust, board members is set out on our website at the following (ii) in each cancer network and (iii) in England was in the last five address: years for which figures are available. [57951] http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/economic-development/leps/ The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of cancer board-membership (incidence) are for the year 2008. 435W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 436W

Table 1(i) provides age standardised incidence rate for lung www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_health/mb1-39/mb1- cancer for (a) men and (b) women in each primary care organisation no39-2008.pdf in England, for each year from 2004 to 2008. Pensions: Prison Service Table 1(ii) provides age standardised incidence rate for lung cancer for (a) men and (b) women in each cancer network in England, for each year from 2004 to 2008. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Minister for the Table 1(iii) provides age standardised incidence rate for lung Cabinet Office if he will consider the merits of classing cancer for (a) men and (b) women in England, for each year from the Prison Service as a uniformed service for the 2004 to 2008. purposes of public sector pensions. [58752] Table 2(i) provides age standardised incidence rate for lung cancer, for persons aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, Mr Maude: The Government have accepted the (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) 80 years and over in recommendations of Lord Hutton’s Independent Public each primary care organisation in England, for the years 2004 to Service Pensions Commission (IPSPC) as a basis for 2008 combined. consultation with public service workers, unions and Table 2(ii) provides age standardised incidence rate for lung others. We are currently discussing the IPSPC’s cancer, for persons aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, recommendations with the main public service unions, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) 80 years and over in including the Prison Officers’ Association, and we expect each cancer network in England, for the years 2004 to 2008 to make an announcement in the autumn. combined. Table 2(iii) provides age standardised incidence rate for lung cancer, for persons aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) 80 years and over in HEALTH England, for the years 2004 to 2008 combined. Care Quality Commission It is ONS policy not to calculate age-standardised rates where there are less than 10 events in a group, as standardised rates based on small numbers of events are susceptible to inaccurate John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for interpretation. Therefore, age standardised rates have been provided Health how many statutory notifications the Care Quality for years 2004 to 2008 combined in response to Question 2 and Commission received in each category of notification in rates for two primary care organisations in Table 2(i) have not the year to (a) 1 April and (b) 1 April 2011; and how been calculated. many such notifications its predecessor organisations Copies of all tables have been placed in the House of Commons received in year since 1 April 2005. [58092] Library. The latest published figures on the incidence of cancer in Mr Simon Burns: The following information has been England are available on the National Statistics website at: provided by the Care Quality Commission (CQC).

Notifications under: 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Health and Social Care Act 2008 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 1110,088 Care Standards Act 2000—adult social Care 242,701 240,997 229,372 243,429 253,103 2132,682 Care Standards Act 2000—independent healthcare 3— 3— 19,356 23,387 27,462 214,891 1 National health service providers became registered under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 from 1 April 2010. Private and voluntary health care and adult social care providers became registered under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 from 1 October 2010. 2 Prior to 1 October 2010, private and voluntary health care and adult social care providers were registered under the Care Standards Act 2000. 3 The CQC is currently unable to provide data on notifications prior to 1 April 2007 in relation to independent health care providers.

A breakdown of notifications by category has been NHS Hospital and Community Health Services: qualified scientific, therapeutic placed in the Library. and technical staff—England as at September 2010 Headcount Yorkshire and East England the Humber Midlands

All qualified art/music/ 691 61 25 Art Therapy drama therapy staff Consultant Therapist 2 — — Manager 32 — 2 Therapist 646 60 23 Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Instructor/teacher 14 1 — Health how many art therapists are engaged to work in Source: hospitals in (a) East Midlands, (b) South Yorkshire The NHS Information Centre for health and social care 2010 Non-Medical and (c) England. [58377] Workforce Census

Mr Simon Burns: The number of Hospital and Cancer: Health Services Community Health Service qualified art, music and drama therapists employed in the East Midlands, Yorkshire Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and the Humber, and England as at 30 September 2010 what steps he is taking to ensure that Public Health are provided in the following table. The information is England and the NHS work together to promote early taken from the 2010 Non-Medical Workforce Census diagnosis of (a) bowel cancer and (b) other cancers published by the NHS Information Centre for Health following the implementation of his planned NHS and Social Care. reforms. [57569] 437W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 438W

Paul Burstow: Early diagnosis of bowel and other The table placed in the Library shows the total cancers requires strong links between the public health expenditure for 2010-11 as £9.8 million. The like-for-like system and the national health service. We recently figure for 2009-10 is £108 million. This is expenditure consulted on the funding and commissioning routes for for “Core Department of Health” contracts and excludes public health services, and on an Outcomes Framework similar expenditure by Connecting for Health (CfH). for Public Health, and will be publishing our response The CfH figures for 2009-10 and 2010-11 are £6.3 million in due course. and £5 million respectively. The Department’s procurement database system is a Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for live system with data being added in real time. It is not Health (1) what steps he plans to take to ensure that therefore possible to provide the information from 1 May expertise in cancer commissioning developed by cancer 2010 onwards, i.e. excluding the month of April 2010; networks is retained in each year of the comprehensive monthly totals and information can be provided only spending review period; [58583] from July 2010 onwards. (2) what assessment he has made of the effectiveness Enforcement Actions of cancer networks. [58584] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: We know that cancer networks have Health how many enforcement actions have been taken had a crucial role in promoting excellence and improving against (a) NHS trusts, (b) independent healthcare outcomes for cancer patients. They have brought together providers and (c) adult social care providers in each of clinical expertise to carry out complex surgery, worked the last three years; and at what level such actions were to implement the ’improving outcomes’ guidance produced taken. [58093] by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, driven up service quality through peer review and Mr Simon Burns: The following information has been undertaken cancer awareness initiatives. provided by the Care Quality Commission (CQC). We have said that cancer networks will now receive The following table shows detailed enforcement activity funding in 2012-13 and that, subject to legislation, the taken1, 2. NHS Commissioning Board will support strengthened cancer networks in the future. The National Cancer Action taken Director, Professor Sir Mike Richards, has been asked against: 2008-093 2009-10 2010-11 to begin work to strengthen the cancer networks and to engage them to understand how best to improve outcomes NHS Trusts 0 5 13 for patients. Independent 33719 healthcare providers Departmental Contracts Adult social care 43 480 221 providers Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State 1 These data refer to centrally held information on the CQC’s statutory for Health how much his Department has spent on enforcement powers. It should be noted that the regulations under which statutory enforcement was carried out by the CQC and its each contract with a firm of management consultants predecessor bodies has changed. The national health service came since May 2010. [58487] under the new regulatory regime under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 on 1 April 2010; adult social care and independent healthcare Mr Simon Burns: This information for the whole of came under the new regime on 1 October 2010. financial year 2010-11 (i.e. 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2 The number of actions outlined in the table does not equate to the number of providers, as multiple actions may have been taken against 2011) is contained in the document entitled “Core a single provider. Department of Health external consultancy expenditure 3 Action taken by the predecessors to the CQC under the Care for financial year 2010-11”, which has been placed in Standards Act 2000 regulations. the Library. The following table shows detailed enforcement activity.

Enforcement action taken by the CQC and its predecessors between April 2008 and March 20111, 2 Enforcement action taken against adult social care providers Type of enforcement activity 2008-091 2009-10 2010-11

Statutory Requirement Notice 12 373 119 Notice of Proposal to cancel 98031 registration (provider and manager) Notice of Proposal to vary 1196 condition Notice of Proposal to impose —— 3 condition Urgent Application to Cancel 71— Registration Urgent Application to Vary 2—— Conditions Prosecutions completed 12 5 2 Simple Caution — 2 3 Warning Notice — — 57 439W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 440W

Enforcement action taken by the CQC and its predecessors between April 2008 and March 20111, 2 Enforcement action taken against adult social care providers Type of enforcement activity 2008-091 2009-10 2010-11

Total 43 480 221

Enforcement action taken against independent healthcare providers Type of enforcement activity 2008-091 2009-10 2010-11

Statutory Requirement Notice 2 16 3 Notice of Proposal to cancel —1412 registration (provider and manager) Notice of Proposal to vary —— 1 condition Notice of Proposal to impose —— 0 condition Urgent Application to Cancel —— 0 Registration Urgent Application to Vary —— 2 Conditions Prosecutions completed 1 7 1 Simple Caution — — — Warning Notice — — — Total 3 37 19

Enforcement action taken against NHS providers Type of enforcement activity 2008-091 2009-10 2010-11

Statutory Requirement Notice — — 1 Notice of Proposal to cancel ——— registration (provider and manager) Notice of Proposal to vary —— 1 condition Notice of Proposal to impose ——— condition Urgent Application to Cancel ——— Registration Urgent Application to Vary ——— Conditions Prosecutions completed — — — Simple Caution — — — Warning Notice — 5 11 Total — 5 13 1 These data refer to centrally held information on the CQCs statutory enforcement powers. It should be noted that the regulations under which statutory enforcement was carried out by the CQC and its predecessor bodies has changed. The NHS came under the new regulatory regime under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 on 1 April 2010; adult social care and independent healthcare came under the new regime on 1 October 2010. 2 The number of actions outlined in the table does not equate to the number of providers, as multiple actions may have been taken against a single provider.

General Practitioners: Telephone Services NHS Direct: Sign Language

Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he has any plans to take steps in relation Health what arrangements are in place for British Sign to the use by/of GP surgeries using 084 telephone Language users to contact NHS Direct. [58593] numbers after April 2011. [58349] Mr Simon Burns: NHS Direct’s core 0845 46 47 Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not plan to service is available through NHS Direct’s textphone take steps in relation to general practitioner surgeries service, by dialling 0845 606 4647, for patients who are using 084 numbers. The Department issued guidance hearing impaired. NHS Direct is also available through and Directions to national health service bodies in the Text Relay service, operated by BT. December 2009 on the cost of telephone calls, which prohibit the use of telephone numbers which charge the patient more than the equivalent cost of calling a NHS: Complementary Medicine geographical number to contact the NHS. It is currently the responsibility of primary care trusts to ensure that Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health local practices are compliant with the Directions and what his policy is on the continued provision of homeopathy guidance. through NHS homeopathic hospitals; how many NHS 441W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 442W homeopathic hospitals provide homeopathic treatments (a) Professor Steve Field: £2,098.74; and other forms of complementary medicine to NHS (b) Other NHS Future Forum members: £4,201.04. patients; and if he will make a statement. [59002] The sums have been met from the Department’s allocated budget. Anne Milton: It is the responsibility of local national health service organisations to make decisions on the Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health commissioning and funding of such treatments, taking what support Professor Steve Field has received from account of issues to do with safety, clinical and cost his Department during the listening exercise on the effectiveness and the availability of suitably qualified/ future of the NHS; and what the cost to the public regulated practitioners. purse of such support has been. [58633] The Department is aware of three hospitals in England, and one in Scotland, that specifically provide homeopathic Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Future Forum, chaired services, but it does not maintain central records of by Professor Steve Field, has received secretariat support homeopathic or other complementary/alternative treatments from the Department, including: provided by other NHS hospitals, though some data on diary management; homeopathic prescriptions are collected. arranging listening events and visits; setting up NHS Future Forum meetings; NHS: Reorganisation updating the Modernisation website with information about the forum; Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health providing facts and evidence to support the forum in developing what discussions he has had with Professor Steve Field their reports; and of the NHS Future Forum during his Department’s facilitating access to the Department’s policy officials as requested. listening exercise on the future of the NHS. [58629] This support has been absorbed within existing departmental staffing levels and has added no additional Mr Simon Burns: Professor Steve Field met with the cost to the public purse. Secretary of State on 23 May 2011, when they had a general discussion about the listening exercise. Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Professor Field and the Secretary of State attended pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for listening events together on five occasions over the last Bermondsey and Old Southwark of 26 April 2011, eight weeks; but these events were for listening to others, Official Report, column 3, on NHS reform, where each rather than for discussion between themselves. of the centrally organised events will be held; on what dates each such event will take place; and how many of Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health those events he plans to attend. [58700] what recent meetings officials in his Department have had with Professor Steve Field. [58630] Mr Simon Burns: As part of the listening exercise, which ended on 31 May 2011, the ministerial team, Mr Simon Burns: Professor Steve Field and other along with members of the NHS Future Forum, have members of the NHS Future Forum have met with visited every region in the country attending around 200 various policy officials from the Department over the listening events, to listen to views of the public, staff last eight weeks to understand the detailed wording of and patients. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of the Health and Social Care Bill and its intentions. State for Health attended 35 of these events. The vast majority of these events were not organised centrally. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health To minimise disruption to practising clinicians and to whether he has requested Professor Steve Field to other stakeholders, the Government and NHS Future report to him at the conclusion of the listening exercise Forum were invited by a range of organisations to use a on the future of the NHS. [58631] number of prescheduled meeting times. These included meetings and events with national stakeholders, frontline Mr Simon Burns: When the NHS Future Forum was NHS staff and patients. Where necessary, the proposed established as part of the NHS Listening Exercise on agendas for these meetings were altered to reflect the 13 April 2011, the Government made clear that the listening exercise to ensure there was opportunity for forum were to produce a report for the Prime Minister, explicit discussion around the key themes. Deputy Prime Minister and Secretary of State for Health. The NHS Future Forum’s report will be made public. Nutrition

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost to the public purse has been of sums paid what recent research on the potential links between to (a) Professor Steve Field and (b) his colleagues for increasing salt consumption and improving health his reimbursement of expenses incurred during the listening Department has evaluated. [58512] exercise on the future of the NHS; and whether sums are to be met from his Department’s budget. [58632] Anne Milton: The evidence linking salt consumption and health was evaluated by the Scientific Advisory Mr Simon Burns: To date (up until 7 June 2011), the Committee on Nutrition (SACN) in 2003. This concluded expenses invoiced by Professor Steve Field and the that the evidence that high salt intakes led to high blood 44 other members of the NHS Future Forum, which pressure had strengthened since the issue was last considered have been incurred during the eight-week period of the in 1994. SACN also stated that, as high blood pressure NHS Listening Exercise, are: was a major risk factor for cardiovascular disease, reducing 443W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 444W average population salt intake to 6 grams (and less for (3) with reference to paragraph 2.200 of The Plan for children) would proportionally lower population average Growth of March 2011, with which (a) organisations blood pressure and confer significant public health and (b) individuals the NHS Information Centre will benefits. consult as part of its evaluation and impact assessment Officials continue to review published studies and, of the publication of prescribing data at practice level; since 2003, there has been no new evidence that would whether it plans to undertake a public consultation on alter the scientific consensus reported by SACN. its proposals for publication; whether his Department will have regard to the outcome of the NHS Information Centre’s consultation on the wider release Out-patients: Attendance of primary care prescribing data; and if he will make a statement. [58499] Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce Mr Simon Burns: The Government are looking to non-attendance rates for hospital appointments. [58464] publish prescribing data at practice level subject to an evaluation and impact assessment by the NHS Information Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trusts are responsible Centre. The Information Centre has begun this process; for agreeing local access policies, which set out how to this is a high level review of the implications of publishing prevent and deal with DNAs (did not attend) for local practice-level prescribing data, reflecting the fact that populations. there are different interests involved. It is important The percentage of missed appointments as a proportion therefore that the impact assessment is seen to be objective. of hospital activity remains broadly stable. In line with the broader strategic approach to National health service organisations respond to the information, the results of the Information Centre’s problem of DNAs in a number of ways, such as sending impact assessment will be a vital first step to ensure that reminder letters, telephone reminders and/or automated aggregated data can be made available without the risk texts to mobile phones. of sensitive, personal or patient-identifiable information The NHS Constitution emphasises patients’ being made public. The Department will consider how responsibilities including making it clear that ″you should best to take forward this proposal in due course, in the keep appointments, or cancel within reasonable time. light of the findings of the Information Centre’s impact Receiving treatment within the maximums may be assessment. compromised if you do″. The Information Centre is drawing on information from a range of sources, reflecting the different perspectives Pharmacy including policy and research, pharmaceutical professionals and industry. The process will be especially mindful that the interests associated with transparency and economic Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State growth, with patient choice, and with confidentiality of for Health what criteria are used in determining whether patient and professional must be considered in the final to allow new commercial registered pharmacy premises decision, and the impact assessment will help inform to open; and if he will make a statement. [58753] that decision. The NHS Information Centre is not consulting on Mr Simon Burns: In England, any person can open a the review, and so has not sought formal representations. pharmacy if they meet the requirements of the Medicines While, apart from a letter to the Prime Minister, from Act 1968. However, no pharmacy or appliance contractor the hon. Member himself, the Department is not aware can be included on a primary care trust’s pharmaceutical of any formal representations specifically on this issue, list to provide NHS pharmaceutical services unless the Department will consider whether there is such a granting the application is “necessary or expedient” to need to consult, based on the decision that it reaches secure the adequate provision of pharmaceutical services about what will be made available, and in what format. in the primary care trust’s area. This is known as the “control of entry” test and the requirements are set out We are clear that any decisions about publishing this in the NHS (Pharmaceutical Services Regulations) 2005. data must not compromise patient confidentiality. There are currently four exemptions to that test (provided certain criteria are met). School Milk

Prescriptions: Databases Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans his Department has to increase the uptake of free milk amongst primary school children. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for [57537] Health (1) what representations (a) his Department and (b) the NHS Information Centre have received on Anne Milton: The Nursery Milk Scheme reimburses proposals to publish prescribing data at practice level; child care providers the cost of a third of a pint of milk and if he will make a statement; [58494] for children under five years old who attend for two or (2) with reference to paragraph 2.200 of The Plan for more hours a day. This includes some four-year-olds in Growth of March 2011, what estimate his Department reception classes at primary schools. The Nursery Milk has made of the potential number of patient records the Scheme has been running for many years and we believe confidentiality of which would be at risk from the that awareness of the scheme is high, with over 50,000 publication of prescribing data at practice level; and child care providers currently registered with the Nursery what factors it has taken into consideration in evaluating Milk Reimbursement Unit. The Nursery Milk Scheme this risk; [58498] is the only milk scheme provided by the Department. 445W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 446W

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural viability of development across their area and ensure Affairs runs the EU school milk scheme and a national that their charges are informed by and consistent with top-up subsidy, which aims to encourage more consumption the evidence. Before proposed charges can be approved, by primary school children. they are tested at a public examination held by an independent examiner. The examiner must be satisfied that the proposed charges comply with the legislation LEADER OF THE HOUSE and the authority has had regard to the guidance. Overseas Aid Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the maximum Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Leader of the House contribution is a local authority can make towards whether he has established a timetable for the passage flood prevention measures without activating the trigger of the proposed legislation to enshrine in law the for a referendum under the community infrastructure commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income levy proposed in the Localism Bill. [57967] on official development assistance from 2013. [57579] Robert Neill: There are no provisions under the Sir George Young: The coalition Government have Community Infrastructure Levy, or the changes to it in set out how we will meet our commitment to spend the Localism Bill, for the holding of a referendum. 0.7% of national income as overseas aid from 2013. As the Prime Minister said to the Liaison Committee, Departmental Official Cars the Government will bring forward legislation on this issue during this Parliament. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Written Questions Communities and Local Government on what date (a) he and (b) each other Minister in his Department last Rosie Cooper: To ask the Leader of the House what used a ministerial car while travelling in an official information he holds on the proportion of questions capacity; and how many times (i) he and (ii) each other for written answer on a named day which have received Minister in his Department has travelled to their a substantive answer (a) on the day named, (b) (i) two, constituency in a ministerial car since May 2010. [50187] (ii) three, (iv) four, (v) five and (vi) six days later than the day named and (c) more than (A) one, (B) two, (C) Robert Neill: All ministerial travel is in accordance three and (D) four weeks later than the day named in with the arrangements for official travel as set out in the the present session of Parliament. [58495] Ministerial Code, which states that Ministers must ensure that they always make efficient and cost-effective travel Sir George Young: The information requested is a arrangements. matter for individual Departments. In the present Session In a typical week, members of the ministerial team my office has substantively answered all 29 named day do make use of the ministerial car service to travel in an written parliamentary questions on the day named. official capacity. In response to the Procedure Committee’s Second The incoming Government agreed to minimise the Report of 2010-12, the Government accepted the use of allocated Government Car and Dispatch Agency committee’s recommendation to provide the committee cars with drivers—that is, a full-time driver available to with sessional statistics on written parliamentary question each Minister. This change will make savings in comparison performance for the current Session within three months to spending on Government cars under the previous of the end of this Session. Further details, including Administration. The Department now retains one allocated statistics for the 2009-10 Session, are available in my car. The Department’s five other allocated cars have February 2011 submission to the Procedure Committee, been given up and Ministers now use a pool car service numbered P85, which is available on the publications on demand provided by the Government Car and Dispatch page of the Committee’s website. Agency. Detailed information on journeys is available only at disproportionate cost. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Departmental Official Hospitality Community Infrastructure Levy

Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what limits he Communities and Local Government (1) how many plans to put in place on the level of charges local meals at venues outside the Department were provided authorities can make on planning applications for the from the public purse for (a) the right hon. Member community infrastructure levy. [57966] for Southampton, Itchen and his guests, (b) the right hon. Member for Don Valley and her guests and (c) Robert Neill: Section 211 of the Planning Act 2008, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and his guests Regulation 14 of the Community Infrastructure Levy and at what cost, during the time each was a Minister Regulations 2010 and the Community Infrastructure in his Department; [43862] Levy Guidance: Charge setting and charging schedule (2) pursuant to the answer of 22 March 2011, Official procedures (March, 2010) set out the framework within Report, column 910W,on departmental official hospitality, which charging authorities can set local charges. In and with reference to paragraph 74 of the Third Report doing so, authorities must consider the potential impact of the Procedure Committee, Session 2008-09, on Written that their proposed charges will have on the economic Parliamentary Questions, HC 952, if he will make it his 447W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 448W policy to disclose in answers to parliamentary questions Enterprise Zones: North East the information on expenditure by his Department on ministerial meals and restaurants between 2008 and Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 that would have been disclosed had a request Communities and Local Government what assessment under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for this he has made of the likely effects on the economy of the information been submitted to his Department. [50148] North East of the creation of enterprise zones. [57882]

Robert Neill [holding answer 31 March 2011]: That is Robert Neill: Local Enterprise Partnerships are currently already the policy of this Department. developing detailed proposals for enterprise zones. The Government will assess these proposals based on their Further to my answer of 22 March 2011, Official potential for growth, value for money, and a robust Report, column 910W,based on an analysis of data held implementation plan. on Government Procurement Cards, expenditure in restaurants involving Ministers totalled some £2,500 in the financial years 2008-09 and 2009-10. A more detailed Enterprise Zones: Per Capita Costs breakdown of expenditure on individual meals, together with details of venues and guests, would require the Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for checking of transactions against individual invoices Communities and Local Government what estimate he and ministerial diaries and could thus be provided only has made of the cost to the public purse of each job at disproportionate cost. created in an enterprise zone. [57995] In the interests of transparency, I refer the hon. Robert Neill: Local Enterprise Partnerships are currently Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for developing detailed proposals for enterprise zones. The Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on 7 June 2011, Government will assess these proposals based on their Official Report, columns 33-34W, which provides a full potential for growth, value for money, and a robust list of card transactions for the Department in the implementation plan. financial years 2008-09 and 2009-10. Fire Services: Private Sector Departmental Official Visits John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his policy is Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for on the leasing of fire appliances from private sector Communities and Local Government what the date was companies. [57307] of each official visit to each local authority area undertaken by the right hon. Member for Don Valley during the Robert Neill [holding answer 7 June 2011]: Sharing period when she was a Minister in his Department. back office functions and improving procurement are [43863] key ways that fire and rescue authorities can deliver sensible savings, while protecting the quality and breadth of frontline services offered to their communities. Robert Neill: In line with established convention, present Ministers are not accountable to Parliament for While each fire and rescue authority is responsible for events which took place under a previous Administration. their own policy on procurement, they should constantly This is outlined in the Directory of Civil Service Guidance search for the best value for money in delivering their (volume II, page 11). Copies of the guidance are available services. Outsourcing the provision of capital equipment in the Library of the House. can be one such way, provided the precise terms and conditions of the contract represent value for money in the long term. Electricity I know that the hon. Member has an ongoing interest in the contract between London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (LFEPA) and AssetCo. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for As you will expect, we have been in close contact with Communities and Local Government whether local LFEPA over the financial situation regarding AssetCo. authorities will have powers to introduce local standards LFEPA have given us their assurance that appropriate for electrical safety which are more stringent than national arrangements are in place to meet their statutory duties, standards after enactment of his proposals in the Localism and ensure a continued service to the people of London, Bill. [58504] irrespective of AssetCo’s particular financial circumstances. Notwithstanding, I would note that these outsourcing Andrew Stunell: The proposals in the Localism Bill arrangements have previously been beneficial for Londoners introduce no new powers for local authorities to impose by strengthening resilience and business continuity.Indeed, local standards for electrical safety. the level of investment provided by the contractor as part of the private finance initiative contract has meant Electrical safety in workplaces is covered by the Electricity that the current fleet and equipment is more modern at Work Regulations and in dwellings by Part P of the and effective than could have been achieved by LFEPA Building Regulations. if they had procured directly themselves. During the Local authorities are already able to specify whatever industrial action last year, AssetCo deployed 27 fully standards they consider appropriate when procuring crewed fire appliances, from 27 strategic locations across new buildings or other electrical work. the London Fire Brigade area. 449W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 450W

Gifts and Endowments Andrew Stunell: Under legislation which is already in place, councils are subject to legal duties to provide Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for services for certain groups, and to consult these groups Communities and Local Government what gifts valued about services provided. For example, local authorities below £140 (a) officials and (b) Ministers in his have various duties under the homelessness legislation, Department received in 2009-10. [43782] including the requirement to secure suitable accommodation for households who are eligible for assistance, homeless Robert Neill: The receipt of gifts by Ministers is through no fault of their own and in “priority need”. handled in accordance with the provisions of the Ministerial A council is under a legal duty to consult representatives Code. The reporting and recording of gifts offered to or of those who use or are likely to use its services on how received by officials is a requirement of the Department it achieves continuous improvement in the exercise of for Communities and Local Government Staff Handbook its functions (including service delivery). This is set out and the Civil Service Management Code. in the Local Government Act 1999, section 3(2). The The gifts valued below £140 recorded in central Government encourage the involvement of homeless departmental records as received by DCLG officials people in service planning and design. and Ministers in the 2009-10 financial year were: My Department is currently consulting on reforms to Officials Best Value guidance to ensure that councils give greater support to local voluntary and community groups, as Ballpoint pen outlined in my Department’s press notice of 13 April Board game 2011. Books Business card holder Housing: Durham Ceramic saucer Chocolates Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Decanter Communities and Local Government what the level of DVD single occupancy residency is in (a) England, (b) the North East and (c) North West Durham constituency. Fountain pen [59071] Ginseng tea Glass ornament Andrew Stunell: An estimated 28% of households in Music CDs England and 30% of households in the north-east were Panettone single person households in 2009-10. These estimates Paperweight are based on data from the English Housing Survey. Estimates of the proportion of single person households Three rucksacks, three torches, three USB sticks and books at constituency level are not possible using survey data. Shopping bags Based on 2001 census data, the proportion of single Silver coin person households in England in 2001 was 30%; the Silver Sikh ring and pin proportion in the north-east was 31%; and the proportion Stationery in the North West Durham constituency was 30%. Wine and spirits Wine glasses Local Enterprise Partnerships Ministers Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Book Communities and Local Government which business Calendar organisations he consulted on the decision to establish Decorative plaques a representative body for local enterprise partnerships. Fine bone china plate [58095] Food hamper Robert Neill: I refer the right hon. Member to the Framed photograph answer I gave on 9 May 2011, Official Report, column Lacquerware box 1034W, to the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders). Mug The British Chambers of Commerce is committed to Photo frame working closely with other business organisations to Stationery ensure that the network is a success. We hope other Wine and spirits business organisations will engage constructively in this Wooden plate. work going forward. Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Homelessness Communities and Local Government whether he has considered the merits of establishing a model Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for constitution for local enterprise partnerships to include Communities and Local Government what steps he representation from all sizes of business. [58096] plans to take to increase local accountability in respect of community empowerment and the inclusion of (a) Robert Neill: Getting the right membership for each the homeless community and (b) other groups in the local enterprise partnership’s board is key to securing allocation of provision of services. [57720] effective business engagement and ensuring a strong 451W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 452W focus on the needs of local economies. As we set out in Non-domestic Rates: Empty Property the Local Growth White Paper last October, we would normally expect to see business representatives form Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities half the board with a prominent business leader in the and Local Government what representations he has chair. received on the decision to end support for empty While we are not being prescriptive as to who should property rates. [57519] sit on partnership boards, we would expect to see business members with first hand knowledge and experience of Robert Neill: Since the written ministerial statement the local businesses environment, through a strong track of 13 December 2010, Official Report, columns 61-62W, record of local business leadership at a senior level. We Ministers at this Department have received 83 letters on would also want to see board members drawn from a empty property rates measures and have met two MPs breadth of experience, from small enterprises through with their constituents to discuss empty property rates. to large businesses, representing the key sectors in their As the statement set out, undoing the last Government’s local area. increase in empty property taxation was unaffordable Local Government Association given the need to tackle the deficit, but we are keeping the matter under review.

Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many occasions Communities and Local Government what assessment the right hon. Member for Don Valley met representatives he has made of the effect on small businesses of empty of the Local Government Association during the periods property business rates. [58146] he was a Minister in his Department. [43860] Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I Robert Neill: In this instance, the Department no gave on 8 February 2011, Official Report, column 178W, longer holds the information requested. to my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Local Government Finance Mercer). Parliamentary Questions: Government Responses Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment he has made of the potential effect on Communities and Local Government when he plans to formula grant of proposals for business rate retention; answer question 35814, tabled on 19 January 2011 for [58142] answer on 21 January 2011, on local government (2) what assessment he has made of the effect any finance settlement. [54060] change to the formula grant resulting from proposed changes to business rate retention will have on the most Robert Neill [holding answer 4 May 2011]: I refer the deprived communities in England; [58160] hon. Member to the answer I gave her on 24 May 2011, (3) what assessment he has made of the potential Official Report, columns 687-88W. effect of the proposed retention of business rates on local authorities in whose areas business rate Planning Permission contributions have increased at a rate below the national average. [58161] Nigel Adams: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will assess Robert Neill: The Local Government Resource Review the merits of introducing a compensation directive in is considering options to allow local authorities to keep the event of local authorities choosing to exercise powers at least a proportion of their business rates which under Article 4 of the Town and Country Planning currently form part of the Formula Grant. The terms of (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 for the reference of the review make clear that the review will purposes of providing certainty and protection from consider how to fund those authorities where locally unreasonable compensatory demands from developers. raised funding would be insufficient to meet budget [57849] requirements, recognising that some authorities are currently more dependent on central government funding than Robert Neill: The Government are considering what others. The review will publish its proposals in July for amendments may be required to the Town and Country consultation. Planning (Compensation) (England) Regulations, so that if an article 4 direction is used to withdraw permitted Members: Correspondence development rights for the demolition of non-residential premises, compensation may only be claimed if an Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for application for planning permission is submitted within Communities and Local Government when he plans to 12 months of the direction being made. It would also respond to the letters from the hon. Member for mean that if 12 months notice were given of such an Basildon and Billericay of 30 March and 12 May 2011 article 4 direction being made, there would be no ability on regional spatial strategies and his Department’s to claim compensation. Circular 01/2006. [58509] Nigel Adams: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: A reply to the letter of 30 March was Communities and Local Government if he will take sent on 21 April and the 12 May letter was replied to on steps to ensure that landowners who allow their property 8 June. to be used for local amenities are able to appeal against 453W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 454W any proposal to add their property to the Heritage George Hollingbery: To ask the Secretary of State for Assets list under the powers provided by Article 4 of the Communities and Local Government how many Town and Country Planning (General Permitted planning applications in each development category Development) Order 1995. [57850] were required to be referred to the Secretary of State under the provisions of the Town and Country Robert Neill: I believe my hon. Friend is referring to Planning (Consultation) (England) Direction 2009 in the Assets of Community Value provisions within the each year since its entry into force; and how many such Localism Bill. The Bill requires the relevant local authority applications so referred the Secretary of State also to list any land or buildings which are nominated as called in for determination in each such year. [57989] being of community value, if they meet the definition of an Asset of Community Value. This definition will be Robert Neill: It is for local authorities to determine set out in regulations, following careful consideration of whether an application they receive falls within the the responses that we have received to the public requirements of the Direction and therefore whether or consultation that closed on 3 May. The Bill also gives not it should be referred to the Secretary of State. landowners the right to an internal review of a decision Since April 2009, when the Direction came into force, to list an asset, and provides for the possibility of a the Secretary of State has received 476 referrals in total, further independent appeal hearing against that decision. of which seven were called-in. The numbers of specific The Government will be setting out in detail the provision development types referred and called-in each year are they intend to make in due course. as follows:

2009 2010 2011 (to date) Total Call in Total Call in Total Call in

Green Belt 42 0 152 2 47 2 Playing Field 10 0 51 0 19 0 FloodRiskArea116100 Outside Town Centre 21 0 95 1 30 0 WorldHeritageSite001010 Total 7413054972

Planning Permission: Appeals proportion of such appeals were (a) upheld and (b) dismissed. [57581] Robert Neill: The total number of planning appeals Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities in each category (i.e. type of development) considered and Local Government how many planning appeals in in each of the last five years and the proportion that each category the Planning Inspectorate considered in were upheld and dismissed is shown in the yearly following each of the last five years; and how many and what tables.

2006 Upheld Dismissed Category Total decisions Number Percentage Number Percentage

Major dwellings (10 or more) 1,381 453 33 928 67 Major offices 10 6 64 4 36 Major manufacturers/stores/warehouses 18 7 39 11 61 Major retail 31 12 39 19 61 Mineral workings 3 3 100 0 0 Other major development 224 104 46 120 54 Minor dwellings (less than 10) 6,906 1,898 27 5,008 73 Minor offices 103 33 32 70 68 Minor manufacturers/stores/warehouses 123 42 34 81 66 Minor retail 213 81 38 132 62 Other minor development 3,183 1,320 41 1,863 59 Householder development 5,756 1,974 34 3,782 66 Change of use 1,729 648 37 1,081 63

2007 Upheld Dismissed Category Total decisions Number Percentage Number Percentage

Major dwellings (10 or more) 1,284 488 38 796 62 Major offices 14 8 57 6 43 Major manufacturers/stores/warehouses 24 16 67 8 33 Major retail 27 14 52 13 48 Mineral workings 11 3 27 8 73 Other major development 325 129 40 196 60 455W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 456W

2007 Upheld Dismissed Category Total decisions Number Percentage Number Percentage

Minor dwellings (less than 10) 6,524 1,871 29 4,653 71 Minor offices 99 43 43 56 57 Minor manufacturers/stores/warehouses 85 37 44 48 56 Minor retail 207 89 43 118 57 Other minor development 3,442 1,511 44 1,931 56 Householder development 6,655 2,409 36 4,246 64 Change of use 1,834 718 39 1,116 61

2008 Upheld Dismissed Category Total decisions Number Percentage Number Percentage

Major dwellings (10 or more) 1,344 431 32 913 68 Major offices 20 10 50 10 50 Major manufacturers/stores/warehouses 23 18 78 5 22 Major retail 32 14 44 18 56 Mineral workings 15 7 47 8 53 Other major development 349 155 44 194 56 Minor dwellings (less than 10) 7,525 2,072 38 5,453 72 Minor offices 133 51 38 82 62 Minor manufacturers/stores/warehouses 118 41 35 77 65 Minor retail 166 68 41 98 59 Other minor development 2,538 1,014 40 1,524 60 Householder development 7,049 2,515 36 4,534 64 Change of use 1,767 706 40 1,061 60

2009 Upheld Dismissed Category Total decisions Number Percentage Number Percentage

Major dwellings (10 or more) 814 310 38 504 62 Major offices 16 7 44 9 56 Major manufacturers/stores/warehouses 12 7 58 5 42 Major retail 22 14 64 8 36 Mineral workings 7 4 57 3 43 Other major development 268 133 50 135 50 Minor dwellings (less than 10) 6,299 1,720 27 4,579 73 Minor offices 124 49 40 75 60 Minor manufacturers/stores/warehouses 99 29 29 70 71 Minor retail 185 83 45 102 55 Other minor development 2,305 949 41 1,356 59 Householder development 6,897 2,450 36 4,447 64 Change of use 1,371 540 39 831 61

2010 Upheld Dismissed Category Total decisions Number Percentage Number Percentage

Major dwellings (10 or more) 644 231 36 413 64 Major offices 8 5 63 3 38 Major manufacturers/stores/warehouses 16 5 31 11 69 Major retail 37 22 59 15 41 Mineral workings 8 2 25 6 75 Other major development 219 104 47 115 53 Minor dwellings (less than 10) 4,675 1,158 25 3,517 75 Minor offices 92 34 37 58 63 Minor manufacturers/stores/warehouses 133 48 36 85 64 Minor retail 330 116 35 214 65 Other minor development 1,585 663 42 922 58 Householder development 6,581 2,312 35 4,269 65 Change of use 1,530 .535 35 995 65

Special Advisers: Code of Conduct to the letter from the Cabinet Secretary to the right hon. Member for Don Valley of 10 May 2011, what the Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for basis was for the investigation into allegations relating Communities and Local Government (1) with reference to comments made regarding Jenny Watson; [56225] 457W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 458W

(2) whether he was involved in the investigation into Justine Greening: The Government plans to publish a alleged comments regarding Jenny Watson made by a consultation document on changes to the Enterprise member of his Department; [56226] Investment Scheme and Venture Capital Trust Scheme (3) whether the code of conduct for special advisers shortly, building on the announcements made at Budget has been breached by any special adviser in his 2011. Department since May 2010. [56227] Aggregates Levy Credit Scheme Robert Neill: I refer the right hon. Member to my Department’s Freedom of Information disclosure log Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer entry on the Conduct of Ministers, special advisers and what discussions he has had with the European senior civil servants, disclosed on 5 April 2011, which Commission since 8 March 2011 on state aid approval provides a comprehensive reply: for the aggregates levy credit scheme in Northern http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/foi/disclosure-log/ Ireland. [58482] disclosurelog2011/april2011/conductministersadvisers/ Trade Unions Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 8 March 2011, Official Report, column Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for 957W, to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Communities and Local Government what financial Long). support his Department has provided to (a) the National Union of Teachers, (b) the National Association of Banks: Loans Schoolmasters and Union of Women Teachers, (c) the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, (d) the National Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Association of Head Teachers and (e) schemes run by Exchequer how much of the money lent to small and those organisations in each year since 1997. [56432] medium-sized enterprises was lent to businesses based in Scotland in the first quarter of 2011. [57902] Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) and the former Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) were created following Danny Alexander [holding answer 8 June 2011]: On the Machinery of Government Changes on 5 May 2006 9 February the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced and 29 May 2002 respectively. a new commitment by the UK’s biggest high street banks on lending expectations and capacity. As part of The Department has not provided any financial support this commitment, the banks intend to lend £190 billion to any of the unions mentioned. of new credit to businesses in 2011, up from £179 billion The Department and Government Offices have, however, in 2010. If demand exceeds this, the banks will lend on a number of occasions hired rooms/halls and equipment more. £76 billion of this lending will be to small and from the National Union of Teachers and the National medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). This is a 15% increase Association of Head Teachers for departmental events. on 2010 lending of £66 billion. Details of the payments are given in the following table. The Bank of England reported the banks’ first quarter The 2010-11 payment, relating to the hire of Mander performance against the Merlin commitment on 23 May. Hall for a PAN Government Agreement Member event, The banks lent an aggregate total of £47.3 billion in the took place before the general election. last quarter; within which, £16.8 billion was to SMEs. Details of payments prior to May 2002 could be The Government are encouraged that the banks are obtained only at disproportionate cost. broadly on track to meet their overall commitment, but the banks must do more to lend to SMEs. £ The Treasury does not hold a regional breakdown of National Union of National Association of Financial year Teachers Head Teachers lending to SMEs in Scotland in the first quarter. However, in response to the Government’s Green Paper on business 2002-03 182.26 0 finance, the BBA published the outcomes of their Business 2003-04 0 176.25 Finance Taskforce, which was written in conjunction 2005-06 1,482.00 0 with the six major UK banks. The Taskforce banks 2006-07 200.51 0 have committed to improving customer relationships 2007-09 0 0 through a new Lending Code, ensuring better access to 2009-10 1,809.50 0 finance and promoting better understanding. As part of 2010-11 893.88 0 these commitments, later this year, the banks will publish Total 4,568.15 176.25 a regular cross-industry dataset that will show regional lending on an annual basis.

TREASURY Disadvantaged: Financial Services

Enterprise Investment Scheme Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he plans to take to ensure that Michael Fallon: To ask the Chancellor of the sectors which benefit from repaid debt other than the Exchequer if he will bring forward proposals to extend financial services sector contribute towards the funding Enterprise Investment Scheme relief to assets held via of debt advice if responsibility for debt advice is limited liability partnerships. [58471] transferred to the Money Advice Service. [58123] 459W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 460W

Mr Hoban: Government are currently considering £ billion how the funding and provision of publicly supported debt advice can be put on a sustainable footing, for the 2009-10 49.5 future. These considerations include the possibility of 2010-11 41.1 the Money Advice Service taking on responsibility for the co-ordination of debt advice services, and whether The 2010 spending review also set out higher capital existing provisions in the Financial Services Act 2010 spending in each year to 2014-15 than the previous which allow the Office of Fair Trading to apply a levy Government’s plans. on consumer credit licensees and applicants to contribute Retail Prices Index to funding the Money Advice Service, should be used. Excise Duties: Biofuels Mr Dodds: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what purposes he proposes to use the retail prices index as the measure of inflation. [54616] Fiona Bruce: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has for the future of the 20 pence fuel Justine Greening: In June 2010 the Government duty differential for biodiesel. [57331] announced that from April 2011 the consumer prices Justine Greening [holding answer 24 May 2011]: The index (CPI) rather than the retail prices index (RPI) will duty differential will end as intended on 31 March 2012. be used for the indexation of all benefits, tax credits and Under changes to the Renewable Transport Fuels public service pensions. Obligation (RTFO), additional support for biofuels Budget 2011 announced that from April 2012 the from waste including used cooking oil is being provided default indexation assumption for direct taxes will switch by double counting the contribution they make toward from the RPI to the CPI. To ensure employers and older national targets. An open consultation is currently under people do not lose out, the annual increases in the way at employer national insurance contributions threshold, www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open and the age-related allowance and other thresholds for older people, will be over-indexed compared to the CPI, and the industry is invited to respond. and will increase by the equivalent of the RPI. The Public Sector: Investment personal allowance will increase from 2013-14 by at least the equivalent of the RPI, until the Government’s goal of increasing the personal allowance to £10,000 is Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the achieved. Exchequer what the level of public sector net The default indexation assumption for indirect taxes investment was in each year since 1981. [57564] and index-linked gilts is currently RPI. The Government Danny Alexander [holding answer 7 June 2011]: Public expect to undertake a formal consultation on the issuance sector net investment since 1981 was: of CPI-linked gilts in 2011-12. The Government will also review the use of the CPI for indirect taxes once £ billion their fiscal consolidation plans have been implemented and the duty increases they inherited from the previous 1981-82 2.6 Government have come to an end. 1982-83 4.5 1983-84 5.7 Taxation: Self-assessment 1984-85 5.3 1985-86 4.3 Tessa Munt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 1986-87 2.7 what classes of individual are not allowed to file tax 1987-88 2.6 returns online; and for what reasons in each case. 1988-89 1.7 [57994] 1989-90 6.6 1990-91 7.8 Mr Gauke: The vast majority of Self Assessment 1991-92 10.8 taxpayers can take advantage of HMRCs online services 1992-93 11.6 to file their tax return via the internet. However, a small 1993-94 9.4 proportion of SA taxpayers are not able to file online, 1994-95 9.8 usually because they need to complete special dedicated 1995-96 10.1 pages. 1996-97 5.4 A full list of these exclusions is available on the HM 1997-98 4.8 Revenue and Customs (HMRC) website at: 1998-99 6.0 www.hmrc.gov.uk/ebu/2011-exc-indi.pdf 1999-2000 5.5 2000-01 5.1 These customers are not able to file online as it would 2001-02 11.9 be disproportionately costly to develop the necessary 2002-03 13.8 forms and links to departmental computer systems. 2003-04 15.6 Trust Ports: Sales 2004-05 20.6 2005-06 23.5 Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Chancellor of the 2006-07 25.8 Exchequer whether any receipts due to the 2007-08 28.9 Government from any sale of trust ports are to be 2008-09 46.6 hypothecated to the Green Investment Bank. [57642] 461W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 462W

Justine Greening: The Department for Transport would Mr Gibb: The percentage of students who were entered consider any applications by a trust port for privatisation, for GCSEs and A-levels in history in each of the last against their published criteria. five years is given in the following table. Should there be a proposal to dispose of a trust port, the Government would announce at an appropriate Percentage of pupils Percentage of pupils entered for GCSE entered for A-level moment whether proceeds from such a disposal might history1, 2 history3 be allocated to the Green Investment Bank. 2006 32 16 2007 31 16 EDUCATION 2008 31 16 2009 32 16 Departmental Manpower 2010 31 17 1 Figures from 2001 to 2004 relate to pupils aged 15 at the start of the Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for academic year. Education if he will make it his policy to publish 2 Figures from 2005 relate to pupils at the end of Key Stage 4. monthly information on changes in the numbers of his 3 16 to 18-year-old candidates entered for GCE/Applied GCE A-levels Department’s employees categorised by (a) seniority, and Double Awards. (b) number of employees taking voluntary redundancy, Source: School and College Performance Tables. (c) natural wastage and (d) involuntary redundancy. [57613] Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education Tim Loughton: The Government are committed to transparency and the availability of data and are currently Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for exploring options for the more frequent publication of Education what his policy is on age-appropriate this type of workforce management information across relationships education in schools. [57630] the civil service. Mr Gibb: All schools are encouraged to provide Staff information is published annually within the age-appropriate sex and relationships education (SRE) Department’s Resource Accounts and is available on as part on non-statutory personal, social, health and the Department’s website. Information for the last financial economic (PSHE) education. In primary schools, education year (2010-11) will be available after the first week of about relationships should focus on friendship, bullying July 2011: and building self-esteem. Education about relationships http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/departmental information/ in secondary schools should build on existing skills and reports/a00390/annual-departmental-reports-accounts-and- spending-reviews knowledge and provide young people with opportunities to explore deeper issues around relationships, such as Departmental Responsibilities how relationships change over time and how to deal with a breakdown in relationships. Within the context Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for of talking about relationships, pupils should be taught Education whether his Department plans to cease to about the nature of marriage and other stable relationships, fund any of its functions over the period of the and their importance for family life and for bringing up comprehensive spending review. [55189] children. Tim Loughton: The Business Plan for the Department for Education sets out the Department’s priorities over Religion: GCSE this spending review period. These priorities include the rationalisation of the Department’s arm’s length bodies Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for and merging some of their functions into four new Education if he will review periodically (a) the number executive agencies to improve the transparency, of schools offering GCSE religious education and (b) accountability and efficiency of the way the education the humanities element of the English Baccalaureate. system is supported. This will reduce the administrative [57475] cost of the DfE in line with the commitments set out in the spending review. Mr Gibb: We will continue to monitor all subjects being taught by all teachers in maintained secondary GCE A-level schools through the School Workforce Census. This information is collected annually, and is published in Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for spring each year. We will also be examining trends in Education what assessment he has made of the relative GCSE entries. number of students taking each A level subject in (a) sixth form colleges and (b) maintained schools in each of the last five years. [57538] Separation

Mr Gibb: The information requested has been placed Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for in the House Libraries. Education (1) how much his Department spent on History: Qualifications relationship support services with respect to family separation in each of the last four years; [57635] Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) whether the funding allocated for relationship Education what proportion of students sat (a) GCSE support services with respect to family separation in and (b) A-level examinations in history in each of the the next four years is additional to existing grant last five years. [55930] spending in this area. [57634] 463W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 464W

Sarah Teather: In December 2010, the Prime Minister Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice will apply the announced a dedicated fund of £30 million over the prevailing Government policy at the time of transfer. next four years to support couple relationships. The The procurement for the National Offender Management majority of this funding will be allocated to the voluntary Service Community Payback Procurement is planned and community sector. Prior to this there was no dedicated to be completed by April 2013. funding for relationship support services. All bidders and subsequent providers that were awarded From April 2006 to March 2011, some funding was the Community Payback National Provider Framework granted to voluntary and community sector organisations demonstrated that they would comply with the prevailing to deliver relationship support services as part of the Government policy. Children, Young People and Families (CYPF) Grant programme. This funding was awarded as part of support All bidders and subsequent providers that were awarded for families more generally, so cannot be separated out the zero value Community Payback National Provider in detail for the whole of this period, but the funding to Framework were provided with a Principles of Competition organisations delivering a range of relationship support document as part of the competition process. The Principles over the period 2009-11 was £10 million. In addition, of Competition stated the following in relation to Admitted across the period 2009-11 funding of £4.5 million was Body Status (ABS) or where pension requirements are made available to fund child poverty pilots which specifically to be met through a broadly comparable scheme: focused on supporting parents through separation. For ABS: The CYPF grant was replaced by the VCS grant in “The contractor will be required to fund, over the course of the April 2011 with the aim of increasing the take-up and contract, the benefits accruing during the period of that contract availability of relationship support. Work funded under for those staff covered by the admission agreement. Pension liabilities accruing during the period of the contract should be this grant covers all stages of relationships including fully paid for by the end of the contract. This will include any those experiencing separation. additional costs for increases in past service liabilities because of decisions made by the contractor for its pensionable employees, Written Questions: Government Responses such as pay increases in excess of those paid by the contracting authority.” For a broadly comparable scheme: Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he plans to respond to questions “it is required that the comparability is certified by the Government 55761 and 55767, on the Frank Buttle Trust, tabled on Actuary’s Department. A broadly comparable scheme will be one which, in the professional opinion of the actuary, satisfies 11 May 2011 for answer on 13 May 2011. [58469] the condition that there are no identifiable employees who will suffer material detriment overall in terms of their future accrual Tim Loughton: The Minister for Further Education, of pension benefits under the alternative scheme.” The pension Skills and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend the Member scheme arrangements would be notified to the Authority as for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), part of the response to the Lot specific mini-competitions. answered these questions on 24 May 2011, Official Given that the mini-competitions have yet to take place the precise terms relating to pension provision is not known at Report, column 626W. present. The pension scheme arrangements would be notified to the Authority as part of the response to the Lot specific mini-competitions. Given that the mini-competitions JUSTICE have yet to take place the precise terms relating to how admitted body status will be applied is not known at Community Orders present.

Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) whether the Cabinet Office Statement of Driving Offences: Speed Limits Practice on Staff Transfers in the Public Sector applies to the National Offender Management Service’s Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Community Payback Procurement; [58463] what the expected date of publication is for data on (a) (2) when he expects to complete the National convictions, (b) cautions and (c) fixed penalty notices Offender Management Service Community Payback in respect of speeding offences in each police force area Procurement; [58473] in England and Wales in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [58368] (3) whether compliance with the Code of Practice on Workforce Matters in Public Sector Contracts was set Mr Blunt: The publication date for court proceedings as a condition during the competition for providers to data including convictions and cautions in respect of be accepted onto the National Offender Management speeding offences in England and Wales for the calendar Service Community Payback National Provider year of 2010 was 26 May 2011. Data for 2011 will be Framework; [58474] available quarterly on a rolling annual basis; the first (4) what assumptions the National Offender Management quarterly covering April 2010 to March 2011 will be Service has made regarding the source of funding for available on 25 August 2011. Data for the calendar year the day-to-day bulk transfer of accrued pension service of 2011 is planned for publication in the spring of 2012. of any probation staff transferred to the private sector Data on fixed penalty notices for speeding offences in as a result of a private contractor on the Community England and Wales for 2010 are expected to be published Payback National Provider Framework winning a contract by the Home Office in April 2012, with figures for 2011 to provide Community Payback. [58475] expected to be published in April 2013. 465W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 466W

Office of the Chief Coroner Prison officers Percentage Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Leaving Retention what budget had been proposed for the Office of the 2006-07 3.7 96.3 Chief Coroner for each year of the comprehensive 2007-08 3.4 96.6 spending review period prior to his decision on the 2008-09 2.9 97.1 future of that office. [58466] 2009-10 2.4 97.6 2010-11 2.6 97.4 Mr Djanogly: The cost of implementing Part One of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, which provides for No additional steps are being considered at this stage. the creation of the Office of Chief Coroner, has previously been placed in the Library. These show estimated costs Prisons: Ministers of Religion of: Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for £ million Justice (1) which prison establishments employed an [58754] 2011-12 110.9 imam in each year since 2007; 2012-13 6.6 (2) how many prisons imams have been dismissed 2013-14 6.6 since 2007; and for what reasons in each case. [58756] 2014-15 6.6 1 Includes creation of office and cost of shadow running year. Mr Blunt: Information on the establishments within the National Offender Management Service that directly employed a Muslim Chaplain (Imam) on 31 March Prisons: Industrial Health and Safety each year since 2007 is contained in the following table. A number of these will cover more than one establishment. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Other establishments will use Muslim Chaplains on a Justice what recent assessment he has made of risks to fee-paid basis. the health and safety of prison officers at work. [58580] There have been two Muslim Chaplains dismissed from direct employment within the National Offender Mr Blunt: Under Prison Service Instruction (PSI) Management Service since 1 January 2007. The dismissal 42/2010, governing governors of prisons are required to was recorded as being on the grounds of conduct in one ensure that an assessment of the risks to which their case and for the conveyance of unauthorised item in the staff and others who may be affected by their undertakings other. are exposed, is carried out and that measures are in Establishments with directly employed Muslim Chaplains place to eliminate or control the risk. (a single Muslim Chaplain may cover more than one establishment) There is an ongoing requirement on prison managers to complete risk assessments. All risk assessments are 31 March 2011 subject to review at least annually but more frequently Altcourse where there has been a significant change in an activity Ashfield or process that may introduce new risk(s). Aylesbury The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) Bedford does not collect information centrally as to whether risk Belmarsh assessments have been carried out. This will be identified Blantyre House by active monitoring of health and safety performance Blundeston in prisons and/or via audit. Brinsford An audit of the health and safety performance of Bristol each prison is carried out every three years by departmental health and safety advisers. The audit focuses on the Brixton procedures in place for implementing the requirements Bronzefield of health and safety legislation, including arrangements Buckley Hall for carrying out risk assessments. A report is prepared Bullingdon for governors which includes any deficiencies identified Bullwood Hall during the audit, the actions required to ensure compliance Canterbury with legislation and prison service guidance and time Chelmsford scales for implementation. Coldingley Dartmoor Prisons: Manpower Deerbolt Dorchester David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Dovegate Justice what steps he is taking to retain prison officers. Dover [58401] Durham Elmley Mr Blunt: The retention rates for prison officers are Erlestoke given in the following table. Everthorpe 467W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 468W

Featherstone Whitemoor Feltham Wolds Forest Bank Woodhill Frankland Wormwood Scrubs Full Sutton Wymott Gartree 31 March 2010 Glen Parva Altcourse Grendon Ashfield Guys Marsh Ashwell Haslar Aylesbury Hewell Bedford High Down Belmarsh Highpoint Birmingham Hindley Blantyre House Holme House Blundeston Isis Brinsford Isle of Wight Bristol Kennet Brixton Kirkham Bronzefield Kirklevington Grange Buckley Hall Lancaster Farms Bullingdon Latchmere House Bullwood Hall Leeds Canterbury Leicester Chelmsford Lewes Coldingley Leyhill Deerbolt Lindholme Dorchester Littlehey Dovegate Liverpool Dover Long Lartin Edmunds Hill Lowdham Grange Elmley Maidstone Erlestoke Manchester Everthorpe Moorland Featherstone Norwich Feltham Nottingham Forest Bank Onley Frankland Parc Full Sutton Pentonville Glen Parva Peterborough Grendon Portland Guys Marsh Preston Haslar Ranby Hewell Reading High Down Risley Highpoint Rochester Hindley Rye Hill Holme House Shrewsbury Hull Stocken Huntercombe Stoke Heath Kennet Sudbury Kirkham Swaleside Kirklevington Grange Swinfen Hall Lancaster Farms The Mount Leeds Wakefield Leicester Wandsworth Lewes Wayland Leyhill Wealstun Lincoln Wellingborough Lindholme 469W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 470W

Littlehey Full Sutton Liverpool Gartree Long Lartin Glen Parva Lowdham Grange Grendon Maidstone Guys Marsh Manchester Hewell Moorland High Down Norwich Highpoint Onley Hindley Parc Huntercombe Parkhurst Kennet Pentonville Kirkham Peterborough Leeds Portland Leicester Preston Lincoln Ranby Lindholme Reading Liverpool Risley Long Lartin Rochester Lowdham Grange Rye Hill Manchester Shrewsbury Moorland Stocken Nottingham Stoke Heath Onley Sudbury Parc Swaleside Parkhurst Swinfen Hall Pentonville The Mount Peterborough Wakefield Portland Wandsworth Ranby Wealstun Reading Wellingborough Risley Whitemoor Rochester Wolds Rye Hill Woodhill Shrewsbury Wormwood Scrubs Stocken Wymott Stoke Heath 31 March 2009 Swaleside Altcourse Swinfen Hall Ashfield The Mount Bedford Wakefield Belmarsh Wandsworth Birmingham Wealstun Blundeston Wellingborough Brinsford Whitemoor Brixton Wolds Bronzefield Woodhill Buckley Hall Wormwood Scrubs Bullingdon Wymott Chelmsford 31 March 2008 Coldingley Altcourse Dovegate Ashfield Dover Bedford Durham Belmarsh Edmunds Hill Birmingham Elmley Blakenhurst Everthorpe Blundeston Featherstone Brixton Feltham Bronzefield Frankland Buckley Hall 471W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 472W

Bullingdon Birmingham Chelmsford Blakenhurst Coldingley Brixton Dovegate Bronzefield Dover Buckley Hall Durham Bullingdon Edmunds Hill Cardiff Everthorpe Channings Wood Featherstone Coldingley Feltham Doncaster Frankland Dovegate Full Sutton Dover Glen Parva Elmley Guys Marsh Featherstone High Down Feltham Highpoint Forest Bank Hindley Frankland Huntercombe Kennet Full Sutton Kirkham Highpoint Leicester Hindley Lincoln Leicester Lindholme Lincoln Liverpool Lindholme Long Lartin Liverpool Lowdham Grange Lowdham Grange Manchester Manchester Moorland Moorland Nottingham Nottingham Onley Pentonville Parc Peterborough Parkhurst Portland Pentonville Reading Peterborough Risley Portland Rye Hill Ranby Standford Hill Reading Swaleside Risley Swinfen Hall Rye Hill The Mount Sheppey Cluster The Verne Shrewsbury Thorn Cross Stoke Heath Swinfen Hall Wakefield The Mount Wandsworth Wakefield Whitemoor Wandsworth Wolds Wealstun Woodhill Wellingborough Wormwood Scrubs. Whitemoor Information has not been received from HMP Doncaster. Wolds Woodhill Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wormwood Scrubs Justice how much has been paid in public funds to Wymott prison imams in each year since 2007. [58755] 31 March 2007 Altcourse Mr Blunt: I am replying as the Minister for prisons. There is no information centrally available on the payments Ashfield made to Muslim Chaplains (Imams). To provide this Aylesbury information would require manual data gathering in all Bedford public sector prisons and result in disproportionate Belmarsh costs. 473W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 474W

Prisons: Retirement of reference, membership and timetable for the new Joint Committee. An announcement will be made on David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for these issues soon. Justice whether he has any plans to change the Youth Justice Board: Office of the Chief Coroner retirement age for prison officers. [58402] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Blunt: Yes. The National Offender Management what costs his Department will incur as a result of its Service is removing the default retirement age for prison decisions on the future of (a) the Youth Justice Board officers from 1 October 2011, with transitional arrangements and (b) the Office of the Chief Coroner. [58465] from 6 April 2011, in accordance with the Employment Equality (Repeal of Retirement Age Provisions) Regulations Mr Blunt: The information is as follows: 2011. (a) It is estimated that the Youth Justice Board will make savings of approximately £6 million by 2014-15 from its operating Reparation by Offenders: Charities costs as result of the transition of some of its functions into the Ministry of Justice. The transition process itself will incur some costs which will reduce any planned savings in the initial year of Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for transition. The Ministry of Justice and the Youth Justice Board Justice how many charitable bodies were the direct are working together to identify the extent of the costs involved in beneficiaries of Community Payback in the financial the transition process. year 2010-11. [58408] (b) As announced in the written ministerial statement on 14 October 2010, changes to the coroners’ services will be cost-neutral. Mr Blunt: The identity of organisations which benefit Therefore the only expenditure incurred by the Department relates from Community Payback is not recorded by the National to staff costs for implementing part 1 of the Coroners and Justice Offender Management Service (NOMS). Act 2009. In the period between Royal Assent in November 2009 and 30 March 2011, staffing costs were £387,140. The decision to A survey of Community Payback work projects has transfer Chief Coroner functions without fully establishing the been undertaken during the month of March since office means that the estimated £10.9 million set-up costs, and 2006. The voluntary and charitable sector has continued £6.6 million running costs would no longer be incurred by the to be the largest single beneficiary of Community Payback public purse. since 2006. Full data are not yet available in relation to the survey undertaken in March 2011. However the survey undertaken in March 2010 indicated that some ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE 30% of the hours worked by offenders benefited the AWE Aldermaston voluntary sector. Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Super Injunctions Energy and Climate Change what the specific activity level was of (a) uranium and (b) plutonium in each Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for air filter sample from the high volume air samplers Justice (1) when he will bring forward proposals for the deployed by the Atomic Weapons Establishment at membership of the joint committee to consider law and Aldermaston in (i) February, (ii) March and (iii) April guidance in relation to super-injunctions; [58009] 2011. [57242] (2) whether he proposes that the joint committee to Peter Luff: I have been asked to reply. consider law and guidance in relation to super- The amount of uranium and plutonium in each air injunctions will consider the use of parliamentary filter sample from the high volume air samplers deployed privilege as part of its work; [58110] by the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston (3) by what date he plans to propose that the joint and other locations from January until 7-8 April 2011 committee to consider law and guidance in relation to (the latest date for which figures are available) is presented super-injunctions should report. [58111] in the following tables. In all cases, these figures are significantly lower than would require notification to Mr Djanogly: We are in the process of liaising with the Environment Agency and all variations in off-site the chairs of the Committees with an interest in this and perimeter readings are due to variations in naturally area and with the House authorities regarding the terms occurring background radiation.

Table 1: High volume air sampler results, January to 7 April 2011; AWE Aldermaston site perimeter 238Pu + (239+240)Pu Total Uranium nBqm-3 Dust Loading on Filter UKAS Location Period nBqm-3 (air) (air) microgrammes/m3

N R001H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 103 ± 21 3.60 N 4 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 66 ± 25 5.07 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 133 ± 25 6.95 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 145 ± 40 10.45 N 2010 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 178 ± 28 8.42 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 280 ± 38 12.35 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 369 ± 41 12.35 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 361 ± 53 N R002H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 114 ± 24 5.13 475W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 476W

Table 1: High volume air sampler results, January to 7 April 2011; AWE Aldermaston site perimeter 238Pu + (239+240)Pu Total Uranium nBqm-3 Dust Loading on Filter UKAS Location Period nBqm-3 (air) (air) microgrammes/m3

N 4 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 <40 5.71 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 196 ± 31 9.38 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 162 ± 28 11.97 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 181 ± 28 9.89 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 142 ± 33 5.52 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 171 ± 26 6.13 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 264 ± 46 N R004H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 46 ± 26 1.44 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 <40 0.84 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 <40 16.45 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 <40 0.98 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 <40 1.03 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 51 ± 14 1.92 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 <40 0.98 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 289 ± 46 N R006H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 115 ± 23 3.52 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 62 ± 48 4.83 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 117 ± 24 6.51 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 129 ± 25 8.94 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 142 ± 45 6.66 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 399 ± 50 11.68 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 346 ± 46 10.09 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 288 ± 50 N R007H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 174 ± 27 5.63 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 88 ± 27 6.44 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 269 ± 49 11.65 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 427 ± 47 17.09 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 267 ± 40 12.40 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 744 ± 66 24.80 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 1015 ± 73 25.15 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 725 ± 70 N R009H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 118 ± 23 4.71 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 65 ± 42 6.83 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 173 ± 29 8.82 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 218 ± 36 12.25 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 168 ± 30 8.63 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 228 ± 38 7.72 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 334 ± 56 12.01 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 361 ± 53 N R072H 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 155 ± 23 5.04 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 73 ± 25 6.44 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 272 ± 35 8.60 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 149 ± 27 10.30 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 123 ± 28 8.10 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 349 ± 38 13.11 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 456 ± 55 13.49 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 537 ± 63 Note: Uranium detected in all samples had a 238U/234U ratio = 1, which indicated that the two isotopes were in equilibrium, implying a purely natural origin. Table 2: High volume air sampler results, January to 7 April 2011; off-site locations 238Pu + (239+240)Pu Total Uranium nBqm-3 Dust Loading on Filter UKAS Location Period nBqm-3 (air) (air) microgrammes/m3

N Hannington 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 94 ± 26 1.91 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 67 ± 22 4.33 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 140 ± 40 6.75 477W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 478W

Table 2: High volume air sampler results, January to 7 April 2011; off-site locations 238Pu + (239+240)Pu Total Uranium nBqm-3 Dust Loading on Filter UKAS Location Period nBqm-3 (air) (air) microgrammes/m3

N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 96 ± 21 7.34 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 72 ± 29 2.82 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 230 ± 41 10.60 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 220 ± 32 4.14 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 327 ± 45 N Thatcham 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 137 ± 26 4.84 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 51 ± 44 5.10 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 167 ± 28 7.25 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 148 ± 28 7.71 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 143 ± 27 7.14 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 271 ± 35 11.86 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 352 ± 43 13.19 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 361 ± 49 N Reading 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 125 ± 24 5.03 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 62 ± 24 5.40 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 417 ± 42 9.00 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 182 ± 30 9.77 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 141 ± 25 7.26 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 354 ± 40 15.19 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 485 ± 49 17.75 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 571 ± 71 N Basingstoke 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 114 ± 23 4.60 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 52 ± 22 5.24 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 144 ± 31 7.36 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 140 ± 33 10.70 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 103 ± 26 6.87 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 269 ± 37 10.91 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 256 ± 39 10.46 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 310 ± 50 N Tadley 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 112 ± 26 3.75 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 73 ± 27 5.72 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 173 ± 28 8.82 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 75 ± 21 3.41 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 153 ± 39 11.14 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 274 ± 43 11.93 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 311 ± 53 12.37 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 360 ± 49 N Silchester 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 140 ± 27 4.03 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 <40 5.39 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 193 ± 29 8.54 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 179 ± 33 12.56 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 107 ± 27 7.40 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 305 ± 44 12.96 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 373 ± 44 13.58 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 709 ± 79 N Mortimer 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 <40 1.53 N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 <40 1.76 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 <40 2.49 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 45 ± 16 3.29 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 54 ± 20 3.41 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 324 ± 42 13.34 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 474 ± 59 12.42 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 265 ± 58 N Aldermaston 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 123 ± 21 4.13 479W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 480W

Table 2: High volume air sampler results, January to 7 April 2011; off-site locations 238Pu + (239+240)Pu Total Uranium nBqm-3 Dust Loading on Filter UKAS Location Period nBqm-3 (air) (air) microgrammes/m3

N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 <40 4.92 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 120 ± 23 6.95 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 157 ± 29 9.67 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 56 ± 22 6.69 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 235 ± 37 10.23 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 413 ± 59 13.44 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 560 ± 77 NAWE 16 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 <30 145 ± 34 4.59 Burghfield N 04 January 2011 to 13 January 2011 <30 139 ± 36 7.48 N 13 January 2011 to 27 January 2011 <30 204 ± 36 9.78 N 27 January 2011 to 10 February 2011 <30 492 ± 48 22.94 N 10 February 2011 to 24 February 2011 <30 494 ± 52 17.72 N 24 February 2011 to 10 March 2011 <30 1626 ± 104 48.39 N 10 March 2011 to 24 March 2011 <30 1540 ± 20117 44.01 N 24 March 2011 to 7 April 2011 <30 957 ± 76 Note: Uranium detected in all samples had a 238U/234U ratio = 1, which indicated that the two isotopes were in equilibrium, implying a purely natural origin. Table 3: High volume air sampler results, January to 8 April 202011; non regulatory—internal locations to AWE(A) Dust Loading on Filter Location Period 238Pu + (239+240)Pu nBqm-3 (air) Total Uranium nBqm-3 (air) microgrammes/m3

R003H WMG 17 December 10 to 5 January 2011 45 ± 8 58 ± 9 2.01 HVAS 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 <30 <40 1.73 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 32 ± 18 87 ± 15 3.82 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 <30 <40 2.20 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 <30 <40 2.93 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011 36 ± 9 58 ± 2011 2.73 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011 58 ± 10 129 ± 17 4.72 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 40 ± 10 101 ± 17 R008H A Area 17 December 2010 to 5 January 2011 <30 <40 0.15 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 <30 <40 0.29 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 <30 <40 0.41 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 <30 <40 0.45 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 <30 <40 0.22 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011 <30 <40 0.49 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011 <30 <40 0.39 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 <30 <40 R010H Old 17 December 2010 to 5 January 2011 <30 <40 0.40 WMG Portable HVAS 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 <30 <40 0.51 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 <30 <40 0.62 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 <30 <40 0.60 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 <30 <40 0.98 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011 <30 <40 0.68 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011 <30 <40 0.76 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 <30 <40 R012H A12K 17 December 2010 to 5 January 2011 <30 <40 0.39 HVAS 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 <30 <40 0.96 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 <30 <40 0.67 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 <30 <40 1.25 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 <30 <40 0.43 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011 <30 47 ± 13 1.87 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011 <30 <40 0.96 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 <30 92 ± 17 481W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 482W

Table 3: High volume air sampler results, January to 8 April 202011; non regulatory—internal locations to AWE(A) Dust Loading on Filter Location Period 238Pu + (239+240)Pu nBqm-3 (air) Total Uranium nBqm-3 (air) microgrammes/m3

R014H A12P 17 December 2010 to 5 January 2011 <30 86 ± 13 2.53 HVAS 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 <30 <40 3.2011 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 <30 105 ± 20 4.42 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 <30 90 ± 21 6.13 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 <30 81 ± 27 4.53 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011 <30 226 ± 27 8.41 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011 <30 263 ± 25 8.2011 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 449 ± 41 205 ± 27 R037H A37 17 December 2010 to 5 January 2011** <30 60 ± 15 3.01 HVAS 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 73 ± 37 <40 1.08 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 <30 156 ± 31 5.93 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 *520 ± 49 230 ± 40 10.19 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 56 ± 18 20117 ± 29 6.54 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011** 44 ± 16 92 ± 19 7.49 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011** 85 ± 24 280 ± 40 18.27 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 156544 ± 1302 101 ± 17 R045H A45 17 December 2010 to 5 January 2011 <30 141 ± 21 3.95 HVAS 5 January 2011 to 14 January 2011 <30 79 ± 25 4.84 14 January 2011 to 28 January 2011 <30 150 ± 27 6.94 28 January 2011 to 11 February 2011 <30 20119 ± 22 8.35 11 February 2011 to 25 February 2011 <30 101 ± 24 7.05 25 February 2011 to 11 March 2011 <30 232 ± 35 9.06 11 March 2011 to 25 March 2011 <30 343 ± 40 8.76 25 March 2011 to 8 April 2011 <30 331 ± 37 * Denotes, plutonium result exceeded the AWE internal action/advisory limit of 500 nBq/m-3 Pu. ** Denotes two HVAS results combined. R037H filter was collected weekly for three collections and the values shown in this report are the combined result based on a weighted average. A weekly breakdown of results along with the method used to combine the values can be made available on request. Notes: 1. Uranium detected in the sample collected from A45 (R045H) on 11 February 2011 had a 238U/234U ratio = <1, which indicated that the two isotopes were not in equilibrium. This implies the trace presence of uranium due to AWE’s discharges in addition to uranium already present naturally. 2. Uranium detected in all other samples had a 238U/234U ratio = 1, which indicated that the two isotopes were in equilibrium, implying a purely natural origin.

Carbon Emissions Climate Change: EU Action

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for of the proportion of global man-made emissions which Energy and Climate Change what representations he are attributable to the UK. [59198] has made to the European Commission on proposals to designate 5 per cent. of the EU budget to measures to address climate change. [58182] Gregory Barker: The Department recognises the importance of understanding greenhouse gas emissions associated with both production and consumption of Gregory Barker: While the Government’s overriding goods and services. For the purposes of international priority is to reduce the size of the EU budget to reflect climate change negotiations, the only practical basis for austerity measures being undertaken across the EU, we reducing greenhouse gas emissions globally is through support a simultaneous and significant reprioritisation multi-lateral agreements based on commitments made within the next financial perspective of the EU budget and actions taken by national governments. This approach to support the EU’s long-term priorities, including energy underpins the UN Framework Convention on Climate and climate change. Change. The Department, therefore, publishes annual statistics on greenhouse gas emissions as required under No representations have been made on this specific international treaties and obligations. However, the proposal and, indeed, the Government believe that spending Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on climate change, both in annual EU budgets and in has published data on greenhouse gas emissions associated the next financial perspective should be mainstreamed with the consumption of goods and services and these within existing budget headings, because on balance, can be found at: such mainstreaming across all relevant headings is more http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/environment/green- effective and offers greater value for money than a economy/scptb01-ems/ dedicated fund. 483W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 484W

Energy: Housing recommendations is monitored by the Nuclear Energy Skills Alliance, a grouping of skills bodies that operate Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for in the nuclear sector and Government. Energy and Climate Change what definition of The estimated requirements per reactor unit where affordable warmth his Department uses. [58197] there are perceived gaps and shortages include 140 design engineers at peak during the design and planning Gregory Barker: Clauses 66 and 67 of the Energy Bill stage, 50 design engineers along with 40 manufacturing include provisions to set energy suppliers a ’home heating- engineers and 20 non-destructive testing engineers at cost reduction obligation’ within the Energy Company peak for equipment manufacture and 30 design engineers Obligation. This is defined within the clauses as at peak during commissioning, operation and maintenance. A further report in this Labour Market research series ‘a target for the promotion of measures for reducing the cost to individuals of heating their homes’ is planned for publication by the end of this year which will update the previous information and provide further and can be summarised as an ’affordable warmth’ granularity. obligation. It is envisaged that support under this obligation Note: would be targeted at those lower income and vulnerable households who are identified as needing support. A nuclear engineer is an engineer within the wide range of engineering disciplines, e.g. electrical, mechanical, civil, who in the context of this response works within the design, manufacturing Greenhouse Gas Emissions and construction sectors of the nuclear industry. Voltage Optimisation Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether he has considered the merits of asking the Committee on Climate Change Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to examine outsourced emissions and consumption- and Climate Change what assessment he has made of based accounting of greenhouse gas emissions. [58460] the effectiveness of voltage optimisation technology in reducing energy use; and if he will make a statement. [58272] Gregory Barker: The work programme for the Committee on Climate Change is planned and managed through an Gregory Barker: Voltage optimisation can deliver annual business planning process agreed between the significant energy savings when properly matched to the Government, devolved Administrations and the Committee appropriate types of load, for example commercial on Climate Change. The Government have no immediate office environments where voltage optimisation can be plans to ask the CCC to undertake work on outsourced combined with spike protection and phase-balancing emissions. and/or where the local grid voltage is high. It is generally We do, however, recognise the importance of the less suited to industrial processes. impact on emissions of the whole life cycle of the Two of the projects under Ofgem’s Low Carbon products we consume, and the increasingly global nature Networks Fund are using new voltage control technology of supply chains means that there is a more and more which will enable better network voltage control, system complex picture of where in the life history of a product harmonics and allow increased network utilisation. the emissions actually arise. The Government’s Green Economy Programme is working to identify and help Wind Power reduce the lifecycle carbon and other environmental impacts that are associated with UK consumption, wherever in the world those impacts occur. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the (a) number and (b) total generating capacity of wind turbines is in each Nuclear Power: Manpower parliamentary constituency that (i) have been installed and (ii) are in receipt of planning permission. [57853] Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Charles Hendry: The following annex provides data of the number of nuclear engineers required to deliver on a regional basis for onshore wind turbines in the UK the UK’s nuclear power station replacement programme. that have been installed or are in receipt of planning 1 [57283] permission, and their total generating capacity . Data is not held on a parliamentary constituency Charles Hendry: Last year the Government basis. Details of the region and country—and in some commissioned Cogent, the Sector Skills Council for cases the district and/or county—for each site are given Nuclear, to produce a report looking at the impact of in the Renewable Energy Planning Database (REPD) industry’s plans to develop new build nuclear on the monthly extracts within the RESTATS database at: nuclear workforce. This report, “Next Generation: Skills https://restats.decc.gov.uk/app/reporting/decc/monthlyextract for New Build Nuclear”, was published in March 2010. National Statistics on all operational wind capacity This published report does not provide a specific (onshore and offshore) by UK country and English estimate for nuclear engineers from the total workforce region, can be found in DECCs “Renewable electricity required, under an indicative scenario of 16GW of in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the regions of nuclear new build, but does identify the requirements England” in September 2010’s Energy Trends, available for the different engineering disciplines where there are at: perceived gaps and shortages and makes recommendations http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ to address possible shortfalls. Progress on these trends/articles_issue/articlesissue.aspx 485W Written Answers9 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 486W

This will be updated for 2010 in September 2011. Annex 1 This data excludes many small-scale, micro-generation sites, typically of less than 50 kW installed capacity.

Onshore wind turbine numbers and generating capacity by region Total generating capacity Region Status Total number of turbines (MW)

Scotland Operational 1,535 2,560.22 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 1,178 3,058.23

Wales Operational 214 383.64 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 101 232.74

Northern Ireland Operational 237 336.16 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 200 460.32

England East Midlands Operational 85 122.95 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 66 121.81

Eastern Operational 59 134.93 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 78 168.6

London Operational 5 1.81 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 11 13.05

North East Operational 106 156.07 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 143 350.78

North West Operational 185 139.47 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 92 186.78

South East Operational 41 82.36 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 12 22.28

South West Operational 104 65.0 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 104 228.5

West Midlands Operational 3 1.22 Under construction or consented awaiting construction 12 18.05

Yorkshire and Operational 108 121.24 Humber Under construction or consented awaiting construction 141 327.18 5MC Ministerial Corrections9 JUNE 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

tens of thousands, given the sort of scheme we are Ministerial Correction describing—with no hope under this Government of securing their own homes? Thursday 9 June 2011 Grant Shapps: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for allowing me to clear up one thing. It is worth knowing that when I said that the HomeBuy Direct scheme had been an expensive flop, it had been launched 10 months COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT earlier and had helped just five people to secure a home. It is true that the scheme has developed over a period of Home Ownership time and has helped people in between times, but as I said in my previous answer—I appreciate that it was The following is the answer given by the Minister for given after she had written her question, but none the Housing and Local Government, the right hon. Member less it is useful to connect the two—the previous scheme for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), to a question from does not end until 2012. We are in 2011, and we have the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison already announced a new scheme. Seabeck) during Communities and Local Government [Official Report, 4 April 2011, Vol. 526, c. 730-31.] Question Time on 4 April 2011. Letter of correction from Mr Grant Shapps: Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I make An error has been identified in an oral answer given my usual declaration of an indirect interest in the entry on 4 April 2011. The correct answer should have been: in the register for my right hon. Friend the Member for Grant Shapps: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford). allowing me to clear up one thing. It is worth knowing HomeBuy Direct was a good scheme, and considering that when I said that the HomeBuy Direct scheme had that the Minister called it an “expensive flop” I am been an expensive flop, there had been only five households delighted that the Government have seen fit, albeit assisted nearly eight months after the scheme was announced. somewhat late in the day, to enhance it further and, in It is true that the scheme has developed over a period of many ways, to replicate it. Can he confirm that, as the time and has helped people in between times, but as I Financial Times reported, this is nothing more than his said in my previous answer—I appreciate that it was admitting that he cannot fix the mortgage market? Has given after she had written her question, but none the he not, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield less it is useful to connect the two—the previous scheme (Toby Perkins) said, just wasted a vital 10 months, does not end until 2012. We are in 2011, and we have leaving hundreds of thousands of first-time buyers—not already announced a new scheme.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 9 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 259 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult Learning Provision...... 273 Green Investment...... 267 Apprenticeships ...... 260 Green Investment Bank ...... 261 Apprenticeships ...... 271 Offenders (Skills) ...... 266 Bank Lending (Retford)...... 267 Part-time University Course Fees...... 274 Bank Lending (Small Businesses)...... 263 Regional Growth Fund ...... 269 British Manufacturers...... 270 Tata Plant (Scunthorpe)...... 271 Employment Law...... 262 Topical Questions ...... 275 Engineering and Manufacturing Careers ...... 259 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 9 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 33WS HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Affordable Homes Programme...... 33WS Police (Firearms)...... 38WS EDUCATION...... 34WS TRANSPORT ...... 44WS Education and Youth Council...... 34WS No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron ...... 44WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 35WS TREASURY ...... 33WS Feed-in Tariffs...... 35WS Tax Consultations...... 33WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 36WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 45WS Immigration...... 36WS Employment Support (Disabled People) ...... 45WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 9 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 431W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Companies: Pay ...... 431W continued ESOL...... 431W Enterprise Zones: North East ...... 448W Export Credits Guarantee Department...... 432W Enterprise Zones: Per Capita Costs...... 448W Export Credits Guarantee Department: Fire Services: Private Sector...... 448W Developing Countries ...... 432W Gifts and Endowments...... 449W Export Credits Guarantee Department: Human Homelessness...... 449W Rights ...... 432W Housing: Durham...... 450W Export Credits Guarantee Department: Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 450W Technology ...... 432W Local Government Association...... 451W Export Credits Guarantees Department: Arms Local Government Finance ...... 451W Trade...... 433W Members: Correspondence ...... 451W Global Positioning System: Earthquakes ...... 433W Non-domestic Rates: Empty Property...... 452W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 433W Parliamentary Questions: Government Responses. 452W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Public Planning Permission ...... 452W Appointments ...... 433W Planning Permission: Appeals...... 453W North East Local Economic Partnership ...... 431W Special Advisers: Code of Conduct...... 455W Nuclear Engineering: Higher Education ...... 434W Trade Unions ...... 457W One North East...... 431W Regional Growth Fund ...... 431W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 403W Space Technology ...... 434W Broadcasting: Alcoholic Drinks...... 403W Government Art Collection ...... 403W CABINET OFFICE...... 434W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 403W Lung Cancer ...... 434W Tourism...... 404W Pensions: Prison Service...... 436W UK Film Council...... 404W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 445W DEFENCE...... 415W Community Infrastructure Levy ...... 445W Armed Forces: Employment ...... 415W Departmental Official Cars...... 446W British Sovereign Base...... 416W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 446W EU Defence Policy ...... 416W Departmental Official Visits...... 447W Military Alliances ...... 416W Electricity...... 447W Regulation ...... 417W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT...... 412W Research ...... 417W Asylum ...... 412W Terrorism: Detainees...... 417W Asylum: Housing ...... 413W Electronic Surveillance...... 413W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 430W Entry Clearances...... 413W Departmental Pay ...... 430W Extradition...... 413W Harassment...... 414W EDUCATION...... 461W Visas: Appeals...... 414W Departmental Manpower...... 461W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 461W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 407W GCE A-level...... 461W Theft ...... 407W History: Qualifications...... 461W Personal, Social, Health and Economic JUSTICE...... 463W Education ...... 462W Community Orders ...... 463W Religion: GCSE ...... 462W Driving Offences: Speed Limits...... 464W Separation...... 462W Office of the Chief Coroner ...... 465W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 463W Prisons: Industrial Health and Safety ...... 465W Prisons: Manpower ...... 465W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 474W Prisons: Ministers of Religion...... 466W AWE Aldermaston...... 474W Prisons: Retirement...... 473W Carbon Emissions...... 481W Reparation by Offenders: Charities...... 473W Climate Change: EU Action ...... 482W Super Injunctions...... 473W Energy: Housing ...... 483W Youth Justice Board: Office of the Chief Coroner . 474W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 483W Nuclear Power: Manpower ...... 483W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 445W Voltage Optimisation ...... 484W Overseas Aid...... 445W Wind Power ...... 484W Written Questions ...... 445W TRANSPORT ...... 404W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 404W AFFAIRS...... 408W Motor Vehicles: Registration...... 405W Animal Welfare: EU Action...... 408W Navigation: General Lighthouse Authority...... 405W Apples...... 408W Railways...... 405W Circuses: Animal Welfare...... 408W Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation...... 406W Departmental CCTV ...... 409W Rescue Services: Northern Ireland ...... 406W Departmental Data Protection...... 409W Roads: Regulation...... 406W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 409W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 411W TREASURY ...... 457W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 411W Aggregates Levy Credit Scheme...... 458W Origin Marking: Israel ...... 412W Banks: Loans ...... 458W Disadvantaged: Financial Services...... 458W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 426W Enterprise Investment Scheme ...... 457W Departmental Manpower...... 426W Excise Duties: Biofuels...... 459W Departmental Research...... 426W Public Sector: Investment...... 459W Iraq: Iran ...... 426W Retail Prices Index ...... 460W Israel: Borders...... 427W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 460W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 427W Trust Ports: Sales ...... 460W Middle East: Peace Negotiations...... 427W Senegal: Prisoners ...... 428W WALES...... 407W Sudan: Politics and Government...... 428W Freedom of Information ...... 407W Syrian Arab Republic: Borders ...... 428W Syrian Arab Republic: Human Rights ...... 429W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 407W Trade Unions ...... 429W Crown Relocations...... 407W UN Security Council...... 429W Members: Correspondence ...... 408W Western Sahara: Human Rights...... 429W Yemen: Politics and Government ...... 430W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 418W Attendance Allowance ...... 418W HEALTH...... 436W Disability Living Allowance...... 418W Art Therapy ...... 435W Future Jobs Fund: Kirklees...... 418W Cancer: Health Services ...... 436W Income Support: Young People...... 419W Care Quality Commission ...... 436W Managing Agents...... 419W Departmental Contracts ...... 437W Members: Correspondence ...... 420W Enforcement Actions ...... 438W Mortgages: Barnsley ...... 420W General Practitioners: Telephone Services...... 439W Pension Credit...... 421W NHS: Complementary Medicine...... 440W Pensioners: Poverty ...... 422W NHS Direct: Sign Language...... 440W Poverty...... 423W NHS: Reorganisation...... 441W Poverty: Children ...... 423W Nutrition...... 442W Shared Housing ...... 424W Out-patients: Attendance...... 443W Shared Housing: Blackpool ...... 424W Pharmacy...... 443W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 425W Prescriptions: Databases ...... 443W Universal Credit...... 425W School Milk ...... 444W Work Capability Assessment...... 426W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 9 June 2011

Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 5MC Home Ownership...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 16 June 2011

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CONTENTS

Thursday 9 June 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 259] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Business of the House [Col. 283] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Dr David Kelly [Col. 301] Statement—(Attorney-General)

Postal Services Bill [Col. 310] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Mr Dunne)—agreed to Lords amendments considered

Munro Report [Col. 355] General debate

Cannabis and Psychosis (Young People) [Col. 393] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Apprenticeships (Small Business) [Col. 141WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 33WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 403W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]