Evidence of the Standing Committee On

43rd PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development EVIDENCE NUMBER 023 Wednesday, March 31, 2021 Chair: Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia 1 Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development Wednesday, March 31, 2021 ● (1530) [Translation] [Translation] Namely, I'm referring to the lack of clear definitions, the inaccu‐ The Chair (Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, racies in certain definitions, the fact that it's impossible to [Techni‐ Lib.)): It is 3:30 p.m., so we will get started. I now call the meeting cal difficulty—Editor]. to order. For example, if Bill C‑204 were implemented, plastic waste that At the end of our last meeting, we were discussing Mr. Albas' would normally be sent to another country would remain in subamendment to Ms. Saks's amendment. Canada. However, according to what witnesses told us, we don't Mr. Bittle had the floor, and I'm not sure whether he had finished even have the capacity to dispose of the plastic here, in Canada. speaking. The next speakers on my list were Mr. Baker, Ms. Saks If it were even possible to fix that, the government would need and Mr. Saini, in that order. Do I have that right? time to remedy all the deficiencies— Ms. Monique Pauzé (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Chair, I'd like to move a friendly amendment. May I do it now or do I wait until ev‐ [English] eryone has had their turn? Mr. Dan Albas (Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, The Chair: You'll have to wait until we get to you. I see you've CPC): I have a point of order on relevance. clicked on the “raise hand” feature, so I will add you to the list. Mr. Chair, he's speaking to other elements of the bill. We should Ms. Monique Pauzé: All right. only be speaking to my subamendment, for proper debate. Other‐ The Chair: We now go to Mr. Bittle. wise, like in the last meeting, we will be talking endlessly about the same tired points that the Liberals are trying to hide behind. [English] Mr. Chris Bittle (St. Catharines, Lib.): Thank you very much, The Chair: Mr. Baker, are you essentially trying to address the Mr. Chair. change that Mr. Albas is proposing to Ms. Saks's amendment? In other words, Mr. Albas is saying that the coming into force should If Mr. Baker is on the list, I'll let him take over from here. be six months after adoption. Is that what you're speaking to, Mr. Baker? The Chair: Okay. Mr. Yvan Baker: Yes. I think what I was saying is perfectly rel‐ Go ahead, Mr. Baker. evant, Chair. Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.): Thanks very much, Chair. To respond to the point of order, the time and all of the things I'm raising are relevant in determining what an appropriate time for im‐ I want to reiterate my support for the amendment proposed by plementation would be. If you need to correct deficiencies in a bill, Ms. Saks. you need time to do that. I'm explaining what some of those defi‐ [Translation] ciencies are for the purpose of explaining why we need more time than what Mr. Albas has proposed. At our last meeting, we heard from the Environment and Climate The Chair: Okay, I understand. Yes, that's relevant. Change Canada officials. We also heard from members of the waste management and recycling industry all over the country. The public Are you finished your intervention? servants are the experts; they are the ones working every day to keep the system robust. I trust them and I trust what they told us Mr. Yvan Baker: Not yet, no. when they appeared before the committee. The Chair: Go ahead. [English] Mr. Yvan Baker: I promise you it's relevant, Mr. Chair. Mr. Albas has proposed in his amendment a timeline that is not The Chair: I believe you. achievable for a number of reasons. There is a range of deficiencies in the bill. Mr. Yvan Baker: Okay. 2 ENVI-23 March 31, 2021 Just to recap, there's a series of deficiencies in the bill. I just fin‐ it's meant to do. It should serve the community and the various in‐ ished listing them, which is I think what Mr. Albas was objecting dustries and municipalities that will be impacted by the piece of to. However, even if it's possible to correct all this, the government legislation we are debating, discussing and breaking down. would need time to correct the deficiencies. ● (1535) Officials have said to us that the process to get Bill C-204 to the point where it would be implemented well will take somewhere [Translation] around two years. I hesitated to put a timeline on this, but I did so At the last committee meeting, Mr. Albas, himself, acknowl‐ to give the Governor in Council the flexibility they need to do the edged the work that needed to be done to correct the bill's deficien‐ work they need to do to get the bill in order. Without this, we aren't cies and the fact that it was the government's responsibility to make doing a process of due diligence. those corrections. The government needs time to do that, however. My concern is that we get it right. That's why I put this amend‐ Given what the department officials told us when they were here ment forward for colleagues of the committee to consider. At the on Monday, it would be extremely difficult to implement the bill end of the day, we all want a good piece of legislation to go for‐ immediately. They told us that it usually took two years to make ward. That's really why we're here. That's certainly why I'm here. regulatory changes. The process can be shorter, but it can also re‐ As a rookie MP, I can feign ignorance, perhaps, on some things, but quire up to two years. With all due respect to my fellow member I know that I came here to get good work done, and I'm committed Mr. Albas, I think his subamendment fails to take into account the to that. reality. It's easy to picture where this subamendment could lead if we Good work takes time. It's not a process of hurry up and wait. It's tried to shorten the coming into force time frame. It's almost certain not a process of hurry up and hurry up. It's a step-by-step process of the government would not be able to correct the deficiencies I men‐ taking the time to discuss things, to see where the deficiencies are tioned in six months. On top of that, Canadians might not have an in what's being proposed and to make sure that we get this right. opportunity to fully participate in the consultation process, and Ultimately, it's not for us. It's for Canadians. It's for the industries companies might not have a chance to explain their circumstances. that will be served by the bill and what they're able to achieve to Frankly, I think it would be a disaster. move an environmental plan forward that works well for Canadians and communities. It's so that we don't have backups in landfills and [English] don't have plastic being shipped off to other places that will cause What Ms. Saks is proposing, I think, is to take into account this harm in other parts of the world. reality. Ms. Saks's amendment is about ensuring that the govern‐ ment has time to correct mistakes in the bill and to pursue the regu‐ We want this to be a win-win. Wins don't happen by trying to latory process correctly, which, as the officials highlighted for us, ram something through the system. Wins happen when they're done needs to be undertaken to implement the bill properly. By doing step by step, with the intention and mindfulness that needs to come this, we can ensure that we make the most of this bill and protect with moving through a process and really unpacking it properly. our environment, or at least not cause further damage. [Translation] That was my intention by putting the amendment forward. I cer‐ tainly hope that colleagues will get behind it so that we can get On Monday, I said that this was not a good bill. I think the Con‐ good work done. servatives missed an opportunity to produce a good piece of legisla‐ tion that addressed the problems around the recycling of plastics. If ● (1540) the bill were to pass, I think Ms. Saks's amendment would be rea‐ sonable, because it gives the government a chance to remedy the The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Saks. flaws that have been identified. I think Mr. Albas' subamendment fails to take into account the reality. Mr. Saini. The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Baker. Mr. Raj Saini (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Chair. We now go to Ms. Saks. I believe that, with the testimony we've heard and the comments [English] from the officials, this could take up to two years. My worry is Ms. Ya'ara Saks (York Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. twofold. One worry is the domestic situation that would occur. We've received correspondence from multiple stakeholders express‐ I want to thank my colleague Mr. Baker. I also want to thank Mr. ing their concern. I also think this is not only a domestic issue.

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