House of Commons Home Affairs Committee

The work of the

Oral and written evidence

15 October 2013 QPM, Head, National Crime Agency

Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 15 and 23 October 2013

HC 659-i Published on 6 December 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £6.00

The Home Affairs Committee

The Home Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Home Office and its associated public bodies.

Current membership Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP (Labour, Leicester East) (Chair) Ian Austin MP (Labour, Dudley North) Nicola Blackwood MP (Conservative, Oxford West and Abingdon) James Clappison MP (Conservative, Hertsmere) Michael Ellis MP (Conservative, Northampton North) Paul Flynn MP (Labour, Newport West) Lorraine Fullbrook MP (Conservative, South Ribble) Dr Julian Huppert MP (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge) Yasmin Qureshi MP (Labour, Bolton South East) Mark Reckless MP (Conservative, Rochester and Strood) Mr David Winnick MP (Labour, Walsall North)

The following Members were also members of the Committee during the Parliament.

Rt Hon Alun Michael (Labour & Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth) Karl Turner MP (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East) Steve McCabe MP (Labour, Birmingham Selly Oak) Bridget Phillipson MP (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South) Chris Ruane MP (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.

Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/homeaffairscom.

Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Tom Healey (Clerk), Robert Cope (Second Clerk), Eleanor Scarnell (Committee Specialist), Andy Boyd (Senior Committee Assistant), Iwona Hankin (Committee Support Officer) and Alex Paterson (Select Committee Media Officer).

Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Home Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3276; the Committee’s email address is [email protected].

List of witnesses

Tuesday 15 October 2013 Page

Keith Bristow QPM, Head, National Crime Agency Ev 1

List of written evidence

Page

1 Keith Bristow, Director General, National Crime Agency, 18 Sept 2013 Ev 10 2 Stephen Rimmer, Chair, Serious Organised Crime Agency, 20 Sept 2013 Ev 12 3 Keith Bristow, Director General, National Crime Agency, 15 Oct 2013 Ev 13

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Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday 15 October 2013

Members present: Keith Vaz (Chair)

Mr James Clappison Steve McCabe Michael Ellis Mark Reckless Dr Julian Huppert Mr David Winnick ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Keith Bristow QPM, Head, National Crime Agency, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: Could I ask everyone present to note the you by the Home Secretary and no targets as to how Register of Members’ Interests where the interests of you were to do your job. When you came before us members of this Committee are noted? Is there any on 17 January you said, “The Home Secretary has not other interest that any other member wishes to declare given me any benchmarks or targets at the moment, in respect of the witnesses today? Good. apart from to say, ‘You will absolutely protect the This is a one-off session with the Head of the NCA. public’”. That is probably the wish of every politician Could I welcome Keith Bristow? This is your third to every police officer, that they protect the public. appearance before the Select Committee, Mr Bristow. Have you now had any more detail from the Home You have now been vested. Every time you have been Secretary as to how you are to do your job or what before us, on 17 January and exactly a year ago on 16 the benchmarks are going to be? October 2012, you said you had been waiting for Keith Bristow: The Home Secretary has now set out vesting day. So you have been vested. strategic priorities, as set out in the Crime and Courts Keith Bristow: We have, Chairman. I am very pleased Act. I have set some operational priorities in response that we are up and running. to those, and I am now clear about the four key performance questions that will be used to test that Q2 Chair: Excellent. By way of how this Committee performance. wishes to monitor and scrutinise your work and the work of the NCA—because obviously this is the Q5 Chair: Which are? relevant committee of Parliament—in August this Keith Bristow: Key performance questions are about year I wrote to you with a number of questions our understanding of threats from serious organised concerning the way in which the NCA operates and crime, the effect that the NCA is having on the threats, which are the missing parts of the old landscape of how well the partnership with police and law policing. You wrote back to me last week with a enforcement is working and how well we are using number of paragraphs with some of the information. I public resources. spoke to you at the end of last week to ask you to reformat your reply. In future, when the Committee Q6 Chair: All those are very useful but they are not writes to you with a list of questions, it would be very specific targets, they are general aspirations. One of helpful if you would answer the questions that have the reasons why SOCA was not as successful as been sent to you because we wish to monitor this people would have liked, is the fact that, when organisation from the start. Do you understand that? reporting back to Parliament and to the public, there Keith Bristow: The intention was to be helpful, was no recognition of meeting certain criteria. You Chairman. If it was not helpful we have corrected our told the public on 8 October that the estimated amount response and hopefully you will find that more of social and economic crime is £24 billion a year, helpful. that there are 37,000 criminals linked to 5,500 gangs and that your job is to disrupt the way in which these Q3 Chair: Excellent. When do you think I can expect gangs and criminals operate. That is right, is it? the response? Keith Bristow: Our job is to ensure that, with the Keith Bristow: My understanding is you have had whole of law enforcement, we understand the nature that, Chairman. of the threat from individuals and groups and that they receive the right prioritised law enforcement response. Q4 Chair: As of today we have not. It would be very Our response will be to continuously disrupt those helpful if you could do that for the future. This is people, including taking their assets off them and something we did not do with SOCA and it is a regret including bringing them to justice wherever that is of the Committee that we did not follow things possible. through. So that would be very helpful. Thank you very much for that response. Q7 Chair: In respect of the numbers of criminals, Let us turn to what you said to us on the last occasion. when we come back in a year’s time, because we are You told us that there were no benchmarks given to not going to see you every week, and we say to you, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

Ev 2 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM

Mr Bristow, “Have you done better than SOCA who flak jackets, with “NCA” written on them, did not manage to ever seize as much assets as is their surrounding houses in Manchester. This morning 300 budget?”—I think they had £500,000 in their budget, of your officers you have tasked from Cambridgeshire you have about £428 million in yours—what are you and Norfolk, have been out trying to arrest people. I going to say to us? think you have arrested nine people. On both Keith Bristow: I think there are some dangers in occasions this was widely covered in the media. Is it starting to focus on the organised crime group map. I your intention when you do these raids, as a matter of am not absolutely clear about whether having fewer course, to show that you are visible and out there? criminals on the map equals success or more criminals One of the criticisms of SOCA was we did not know on the map, because it is a function of our what they were up to. The media are going to be understanding of the threat. What I am clear about is I invited each time you have one of these massive raids, need to improve the alignment of the law enforcement and all your officers are going to be walking around response, so the most dangerous, the most capable, in flak jackets with “NCA” on them? the most intent groups are the subject of the most Mr Winnick: That reminds me of J Edgar Hoover, comprehensive law enforcement response. of course. Chair: Yes, it does. Q8 Chair: Surely every other chief officer, including Keith Bristow: Our default position is that we want to Bernard Hogan-Howe, would say the same thing to a be visible in the things that we do. There are very Select Committee of the House of Commons. These good operational reasons for that. I want the public to are wonderful aspirations, but what we are looking for have confidence that there is a national agency that is is something more than aspirations. How will we leading the fight to cut serious and organised crime, judge the results? Of course the assessment of a threat and I want the public to see the difference we are is something that every professional can do, but at the making. I want our partners to be confident in this. end of the day how do we know? Is it the amount of assets you have seized? Is it the number of gangs in Q11 Chair: I understand that. Basically, the answer existence? Is it the number of people you have is you will be inviting the media when you do all arrested? How are we to know what the NCA is going these events? to be doing? Keith Bristow: Whenever possible we want to be open Keith Bristow: There is a very real risk that we focus and transparent and demonstrate the difference we on what is measurable, rather than measure what is are making. important to try to identify whether we are having the effect that we have been set up to have. So I would have thought that I would want to respond to you in Q12 Chair: In terms of the nine arrests that you have the four areas I have said, around the key performance made this morning, they were not your officers, they questions. Some of the issues that you have just were officers that you tasked. Is that right? mentioned are absolutely a part of understanding Keith Bristow: No, it was a mixture of police officers whether we are delivering an effect or not. I do not from Cambridgeshire Police and Norfolk, officers believe there is one single metric that is automatically from the NCA and officers from the Gangmasters a binary judgment of whether we are being successful Authority. We provided around 70 officers to deliver or not. I think our performance needs to be judged in our particular contribution around human trafficking. the round, and that is the work that we are doing with the Home Office at the moment to develop a very Q13 Chair: Finally, on budgets, you have a budget rigorous framework. The Home Secretary has been of, what, £428 million? Is that right? very clear with me, this is about delivering results and Keith Bristow: £494 million. results is about reducing the effect of serious and organised crime. Q14 Chair: £494 million. Do you know what has happened to the other £338.1 million that formed part Q9 Chair: Again that sounds a little vague but we of the past landscape of policing? Many of the will put it to the Home Secretary as to what she wants. organisations have come under your command but we Our worry last time was, if you had a choice between do not seem to be able to account for £338 million Sir Humphrey or J Edgar Hoover, that you would of it. become a civil servant rather than someone Keith Bristow: A very substantial proportion of the operational. You came back to us very firmly and you NPIA went to the Home Office and elsewhere and not said you intended to be an operational crime fighter. to the NCA. We have some quite discrete functions, You wanted to go out there and you wanted to 188 officers, and I can give you the size of the budget. apprehend criminals. That is right, is it not? I am clear in the response that I thought you had Keith Bristow: I am the leader of a crime fighting received—we certainly sent it—that we set out in organisation. I am a law enforcement officer. I have some detail what had come to us. I think we have done that all of my working life. That is the job that been in a conversation with your clerk that the request I have come to do. The organisation that I am going about where the other information has gone, he or she to build, develop and lead is a crime fighting has agreed that that should come from the Home organisation that will be feared by criminals. Office because it certainly has not come to the NCA. Chair: Thank you. If colleagues do not have Q10 Chair: You have had two very big raids. The questions on the formation of the NCA let us move day you opened there were a lot of NCA people in on. Yes, Dr Huppert has a question. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3

15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM

Q15 Dr Huppert: One brief question. SOCA had a Keith Bristow: If what you mean by “blank refusal” fantastic international reputation, as we have seen on that we will not respond to requests for information, a number of occasions. What steps are you taking to no, that is not the case. My salary, gifts and make sure that there is no confusion for people who hospitality, expenses claimed, will all be published. work for the NCA in other countries? Obviously Our default position will be that we want to be as “national” would mean something else. I think this open and transparent as is proper for our particular Committee has previously suggested having role. There are some differences with the police. Yes, something like a serious overseas crime arm to enable of course, it is a balanced argument across the whole people out there to continue talking. How are you of law enforcement in Government, but we do hold dealing with that? the responsibility for the international relationships Keith Bristow: The first thing I would say is I would and we need to develop our relationships with the agree with you that SOCA have a fantastic reputation private sector into a different place than they have abroad and very effective partnerships. In building been previously. Otherwise I think we will struggle to something new and different it is quite easy to focus make an impact on threats such as cyber crime. on what we are going to change. To be clear, we want to build on the international network and not fracture Q18 Mr Winnick: Mr Bristow, of course you realise, it in any way whatsoever. We have had to widen the remit of our international officers, because we have if there was an attitude that would seem to indicate a a wider remit as an agency. That means some new blank refusal—apart from what you have said, which partnerships abroad. It will mean in due course we is all in the public domain, how much you earn, and will need to consider some of the locations that we the rest of it—these are issues that are likely to be are going to deploy our officers in. I have spoken to raised in the Commons. law enforcement colleagues abroad. We spoke to the Keith Bristow: I am sorry, I am not sure I understand diplomatic community based in London. We have the question, Mr Winnick. ensured through DipTels that we have communicated Mr Winnick: Let me put it again. If there was with stations abroad. All of the feedback I am getting anywhere near a blank refusal to answer questions— is that colleagues are reassured that we are not going apart from what you have already indicated, your to fracture those arrangements and we are going to salary and so on is already in the public domain—then build on them and reinforce them. it is quite likely that such a policy would be raised at some stage in the Commons by this Committee. Q16 Mr Winnick: You said you want to be Keith Bristow: Yes, I entirely expect that it if it judged transparent as an organisation, highly commendable. I that I am not acting in an appropriate way, and the think you are quoted as saying the NCA should be agency is not doing so—and I am accountable for open, transparent and accountable. We would all agree that—I expect that to be scrutinised and challenged. on that. Why are you opposed to freedom of The reassurance I am giving you is I am coming at information requests being made? Not only being this wanting to run an open and transparent law made but apparently you are not going to respond. enforcement agency, not an intelligence agency. We Keith Bristow: Frankly, it is less about my view. are intelligence-led but we are a law enforcement Parliament have come to a view that we are exempt agency. I think the public need to know who we are, from FOI. I think it is quite a balanced argument. We how we use our powers, what we are doing with our do want to be open and transparent, and I will show money and what difference we are making. that to yourself and the public. That is how we are Mr Winnick: It could be argued that legitimate going to operate within the bounds of what is sensible requests for information should be responded to unless for an agency that is about law enforcement and there are compelling reasons why it should not be, but sometimes needs to operate covertly. The difficulty you may wish to reflect on that. with FOI is that it potentially removed some of our relationships with overseas law enforcement and some Q19 Chair: We have done a search. We cannot find of the relationships we need to build and improve with the private sector. I do not think being exempt from this letter that I referred to, which was a letter you the Freedom of Information Act automatically means were supposed to give us answering the 11 questions. we are a closed organisation. There is a very clear The way we want it answered is very similar to the commitment in the framework agreement about the way in which the Commissioner replies. We say information that we will publish. As the Chair alluded questions 1 to 11 and under each of the question to earlier, we are going to operate in an open and numbers we have an answer. We have not received transparent way and demonstrate the difference we are that as yet. Do you have a copy? Do you recall going to make. speaking to me on Friday? Keith Bristow: Yes, I do. Q17 Mr Winnick: Surely the police could argue the Chair: I said it would be better to have it, and I gave same, and yet they are subject to freedom of you a deadline of noon on Monday so we could read information requests and respond accordingly. it before you got here. Obviously it depends on what is being asked and Keith Bristow: My understanding was that we had information of a certain kind will obviously not be passed that to you. I have just been given a note to given, but there is not a blank refusal. There does say the clerk has told us not to reply and that the seem to be—and it is your intention there should be— questions should be redirected to the Home Office, with the organisation you are heading. albeit a reply had been prepared. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

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15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM

Q20 Chair: That is very interesting because that is a Keith Bristow: There is an issue of accuracy, which very serious issue about accountability to this is I find it difficult to answer a question where organisation, the Home Affairs Select Committee. You resources are within the Home Office and where they have just told Mr Winnick that you want to be open have gone within the Home Office. and accountable to the public. A Select Committee of this House has written to you. You told us your salary. Q24 Chair: You are a very experienced man. You You are on £214,772 a year. We have asked you 11 were a . I know this is not the questions that we would like answered. We started Authority, but if they asked you asking you these questions on 17 January 2012, and questions and you did not have an answer, you would you are now telling us that you are not able to answer very politely say, “I don’t have this information.” This those questions and that they are going to be answered is a Committee of the House of Commons. If you by whom in the Home Office? don’t have an answer under the relevant question say, Keith Bristow: I did not say that, Chair. What I said “I refer this. I don’t know.” That is all. was you wrote to me asking me the questions. I Keith Bristow: Thank you, Chairman. replied in a format that was unacceptable to the Committee. You did speak to me and say, “That is Q25 Chair: Excellent. Let us move on to Europol. unacceptable. I would like you to answer the questions You have aligned yourself with the comments of Rob in the format required”. That has been prepared but I Wainwright, in which he said that coming out of understand there has been a conversation with the Europol would be an unmitigated disaster. The clerk where I could not answer the questions because Government has decided to opt out of seven measures. the resources have not come to us, and the clerk had Do you agree with that opt out? Does that cause you directed that we should not respond that it was being any difficulties? redirected to the Home Office. Keith Bristow: I don’t believe I have aligned myself with anyone’s comments. Whenever I have been Q21 Chair: Which clerk? asked I have been very consistent, which is, to do the Keith Bristow: May I just find out the name of the job that we have been given to do we need to be able clerk involved? to operate internationally and effectively alongside Chair: Yes. our international partners. Three of the key capabilities that we need is the ability, for instance, to Keith Bristow: My colleague had a conversation with share intelligence, which Europol help us with, the the second clerk. ability to operate alongside our European law enforcement colleagues in a joint investigation team, Q22 Chair: No, let us get this right. This is the view and the ability to bring people to justice who may of this Committee. I want the answers to the questions be fugitives abroad through an instrument such as the that I put to you with me at midday tomorrow. Under European Arrest Warrant. How we access those 1 you answer the question put at number 1. If you capabilities is a matter for Government. What I have cannot answer it, and you do not have the information, been consistent about is we do need those capabilities then you could say under the relevant question, “It has to enable us to cut serious and organised crime. been referred to the Home Office”. At the start of the NCA we will not accept a situation where we write to Q26 Chair: Opting out of those seven would be a the head of the NCA and we are told that they will problem for you to do your job as the head of the not answer. The clerk has just told me he has not told NCA? you not to write back to this Committee. He has said Keith Bristow: I think the Home Secretary has been you asked whether the Home Office could reply. That very clear that she understands there is an is not acceptable to this Committee. You must reply operational need. when I write to you. Do you understand that, Mr Chair: We will ask her. She is coming in after you, Bristow. so tell us about you. Keith Bristow: It was not my intention to be Keith Bristow: It is a matter for Government how we unhelpful. I was trying to be helpful with the access those capabilities. If we use European Arrest information within my gift. Warrants as an example, it is a very efficient way of bringing people back to justice and people being Q23 Chair: You are not being helpful. The most extradited and brought back to justice elsewhere helpful thing to do when a Select Committee of the within the EU. In the absence of that provision in my House writes to someone like you—we have the view we would need something that was as efficient highest regard for you, we regard your job as being as possible. very important—if we give you a list of 11 questions we want a reply in the format that we send. We do Q27 Chair: You have looked at the proposals that not want the Home Office to reply, and no clerk of have been put forward. We do not want you to talk this Committee has told you that we are happy for the about the politics or the policies, it is all operational Home Office to reply. from you today. We have the Home Secretary later on. Mr Winnick: No clerk would have the authority to You have looked at her proposals to make the do so. European Arrest Warrant better? The Committee is Chair: We have our own relationship with the Home very concerned about the number of Arrest Warrants Secretary and the Home Office. If I wanted to write that come, for example, from a country like Poland. to her I would not write to you. Is that understood? A quarter of all the warrants that are executed here cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5

15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM come from Poland, which is a huge number. Are you European Arrest Warrant, presumably, Mr Bristow, it satisfied that the points that have been put forward by would have taken much longer. Would that be your the Home Secretary, as a way of dealing with this view? practicality of these Arrest Warrant requests, are Keith Bristow: I have to say I do not know the sufficient for your needs? It is not going to cause you particulars of the case, but the European Arrest any trouble? Warrant does speed up the process of bringing people Keith Bristow: It is very easy on occasions to focus back to justice. on parts of a system or an approach that might not work as we would want. I think for every part of the Q33 Mr Winnick: I understand quite a number of process around European Arrest Warrants, where we criminals, British nationals who were living in Spain, have concerns, there are real success stories. I think have been brought back to Britain to face justice. the Home Secretary’s provisions and proposals about Otherwise it would have taken that much longer? improving European Arrest Warrants, and seeking to Keith Bristow: Only last week on our second day of opt back in in due course— operation, we arrested, alongside South Yorkshire police officers and international colleagues in the Q28 Chair: You don’t mind if, by the time we opt in Netherlands, somebody who has been wanted since to Europol 2 the framework and the landscape has 2010 for drug trafficking. They are now facing already been decided? extradition and they will come back here and face Keith Bristow: I think that is a matter for justice. That is a good thing. Government, Chairman. Q34 Chair: Basically you are telling the Committee Q29 Mr Clappison: This Committee has heard you want to keep the European Arrest Warrant and evidence where the European Arrest Warrant has you want to be part of Europol? trampled over the civil liberties of individuals in this Keith Bristow: The very nature of serious and country. It comes down to this, doesn’t it, that we organised crime is that criminals will see refuge appreciate what you say about capabilities but we abroad, as well as operating abroad. We need to have have our own system of justice in this country, which the capability to bring them to justice, to disrupt what is determined by our Parliament and subject to the they do and, if appropriate, send them to prison. control of our judiciary? There is an important issue as to whether we retain that or whether we hand it Q35 Michael Ellis: Mr Bristow, good afternoon. On over to the European Union, so that in effect we the subject of disrupting criminals and what they are Europeanise our system of justice with the European doing, one of the ways that you no doubt can do that judges and, in particular, the European Court of is by trying to locate any hidden criminal assets. Can Justice having final jurisdiction. I ask you about that? I understand that at the NCA Keith Bristow: I think I was very clear in how I you plan to have some mechanism whereby you can responded to the question. The capability we need— recruit volunteers to help locate hidden criminal and we are focused on serious and organised crime— assets. Could you expand on that a little bit, please? is the ability to bring people to justice here, and for Do you see any mechanism whereby rewards can be people who ought to be brought to justice elsewhere offered, things of that sort? to ensure that is the case. Keith Bristow: Asset confiscation is a hugely important tool in the law enforcement box. It is easy Q30 Mr Clappison: Yes, but that we have the sometimes for us to think about the size of the asset— priority of saving our system of justice in this I think that is important—but we also ought to focus country? At least to some of us a priority anyway. on the disruptive effect of taking the asset off a Keith Bristow: That is a matter for Government and particular criminal group. We need to pursue those for Parliament. assets in a very assertive and creative way. The one policy that you have just alluded to is around NCA Q31 Mr Clappison: Have you studied the extent to specials. The idea of NCA specials is that there are which the European Court of Justice could interfere people who might not want to or be able to work for with the police in this country under the provisions of us full-time who are willing to give their expertise, the Treaty of Lisbon if we were to sign up to it fully? their time, and their particular knowledge to help law Keith Bristow: As a law enforcement officer it is for enforcement be more effective. We have recently me to operate within the rules that Government and recruited our first 10 NCA specials. I think some of Parliament have decided upon, and that is what I am those people might be able to inform how we operate going to do. What I have been very clear about is the on matters of confiscation. capabilities that we need to cut serious and organised crime. How those are delivered are for Parliament Q36 Michael Ellis: Are these civilians? and Government. Keith Bristow: Yes. Michael Ellis: The ones you have recruited so far are Q32 Mr Winnick: On the European Arrest Warrant, civilians in the same way that Special Police it may well be that the changes proposed will not Constables might be sworn? make any difference to the sort of case that I am going Keith Bristow: Yes. We have borrowed from the idea to mention. Hussain Osman, one of the failed bombers but instead of being about capacity, these are about from 21 July 2005, was extradited from Italy in a people who have particular niche expertise that can matter of eight weeks. Had it not been for the help us. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

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15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM

Q37 Michael Ellis: I see. These are particular sills Q43 Chair: Mr Bristow has said he is not J Edgar set individuals, so there might be a computer expert, Hoover, so we can now drop that as a possible brand. there might be a language specialist, some type of You mentioned on assets and crimes, figures that we expertise that they will bring to bear that will help you have seen—I think were originally in the Evening and the NCA in their task. Is that what you are saying? Standard—show that “Mr Bigs” owe £675 million Keith Bristow: Those are two examples of exactly the through 178 organised gangs and criminals. Are you sort of people we have recruited. worried that you cannot get this money. You get a Michael Ellis: Already? confiscation order, they go to prison, they serve their Keith Bristow: Yes. sentence, they then leave prison but they still owe as much as £675 million. Is that a worry and what can Q38 Michael Ellis: Are they remunerated for that? we do about it? Keith Bristow: No. Keith Bristow: It is not us that enforce the orders, but am I concerned? Yes, because we are not delivering Q39 Michael Ellis: This is on a voluntary basis? the disruptive effect that we could on serious and organised criminals. The giving of the order is but the Keith Bristow: These are people who are civic beginning of the process. It is the taking of the asset minded, have something they want to give. There is that is the most important part. What can we do? also an opportunity to receive training and develop Through our intelligence hub we can understand their own personal capabilities, but they give their which criminals have managed to hang on to the most time free of charge. asset and where we should put the most effort, working alongside those that can collect it, to take that Q40 Michael Ellis: What about the seizing of asset from them. criminal assets or the confiscation of them, including property, for example, would it be something that the Q44 Chair: Bernard Hogan-Howe has suggested that NCA would consider utilising criminal property that we should make it a criminal offence. If you leave has been seized for official use, like motor vehicles, prison and you still have not paid up the compensation as happens in other jurisdictions, or is it simply selling that you are supposed to pay, that should be turned assets that are confiscated with a view to investing into a criminal offence. Would you agree with that? the proceeds? Keith Bristow: It seems to me that people who choose Keith Bristow: If there is a reason why we would want to ignore the sanction that has been put in place by to use the assets, for public service, whether it is for any legitimate judicial process, that is offensive to the the NCA or anywhere else, and that made sense, then whole process in the first place and there should be a that is something we should do provided it was within further sanction. the rules. Q45 Dr Huppert: Can I turn now to what has Q41 Michael Ellis: Finally from me, there have been become known as the SOCA list? The list of client some suggestions from one or two quarters that this employed private investigators who have been known might simply be a rebranding exercise, the NCA. Do or alleged to break the law. SOCA were phenomenally you agree with that assessment? Do you think that slow at doing anything about it and failed to look into critics are accurate when they say it is a rebranding this properly. We have now finally seen it passed on exercise, or are you coming at this completely afresh to the Information Commissioner. What sort of and attacking these issues head on? support are you providing to the Information Keith Bristow: I absolutely do not agree. Apart from Commissioner in his investigation? going back to the point that Dr Huppert made earlier, Keith Bristow: I think we have legitimacy as an there are some parts of the agencies that we are agency around private investigators, if they are a inheriting that are very effective, and I would not want proxy or an enabler of serious and organised crime. to change them unnecessarily. Let us be clear about We have a crime reduction and a crime intelligence some of the changes. This is the first time there will role. So I think we have some legitimacy where that be a single law enforcement agency with a mandate, is the case. As you say, the list has gone to the ICO. the relationships, and the powers to lead the whole I have spoken to the Information Commissioner and— law enforcement response. One agency; a single as we would, as an agency that has duties to support intelligence picture that we can task the response the law enforcement effort—I have indicated to him against; new capabilities; the National Cyber Crime that if he required our support we would, if we could, Unit; law enforcement officers at the border. This is a deliver the support that he required under his direction wholly different agency, and the way in which we will and control. We are still talking about what that might conduct ourselves will be markedly different from look like. what has gone before. That is not just to demonstrate difference. That is because what is required now is Q46 Dr Huppert: I am glad to hear that you think different, and that is what I am going to deliver. your agency has legitimacy. I think that is a good step. Presumably the people who would help might well be Q42 Michael Ellis: This is Britain’s equivalent of the the same people who failed to provide the list to him FBI, is it? in the first place. Do you see any problems around Keith Bristow: It is a unique UK response to tackling that? serious and organised crime. It is what we need in Keith Bristow: Whether it is a matter of substance or the UK. perception, if the Information Commissioner wanted cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

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15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM some of our officers to assist I would ensure those Keith Bristow: We are at an early stage in officers had not previously been involved in these understanding the support the Information investigations because I do not think that would Commissioner will want, but we are certainly at the appear right, or not be right, one or the other. I would moment talking about investigators. want to make sure they had the right officers. Q51 Chair: Yes, but are you going to be absolutely Q47 Michael Ellis: In general I think one of the sure that the people who you lend him, because they suggestions you made about SOCA was that it did not will still be your staff, are not former SOCA people take computer based things seriously. It did not take who were involved in the original investigations, and issues around data security very seriously, as we have how will you make sure that there is no conflict of seen with this list, data protection, Computer Misuse interest? I know you have not made the decision, but Act, but also I think it did not take cyber crime issues if you decide to give him some investigators how will sufficiently seriously. What are you going to do to you be certain that they are not part of the original change the profile on all of that because these are investigation? The Committee is very concerned that growing problems that matter more and more to this has taken so long. people? Keith Bristow: There will be a proper due diligence Keith Bristow: Can I be clear? I am not here to justify process, both around self-disclosure but also around what SOCA have done, neither to complain about scrutinising any previous investigations to make sure what SOCA have done. The National Cyber Crime that officers have not been involved. What I would Unit will lift the whole of law enforcement’s response say is our officers do operate with integrity. They do to cyber crime to a different level from what has gone understand the importance of impartial, proper before. I think it is fair to say, in policing and law objective investigation, and they also understand the enforcement, we are learning more and more about importance of being seen to operate in that way. the threat and we are learning more and more about the capability that we need. Part of the difficulty we Q52 Chair: In terms of your staff, you now have face is to break out of the idea that internet-based eight directors whose total salaries are £1,123,244. criminality, cyber crime, is niche. The reality is there Two of your directors are still interim. I think one had is part of it that is niche, perhaps around malware to be stood down because of a conflict of interest. Is development and deployment, but the people that we that right? target mostly are involved in some sort of digital Keith Bristow: If you are referring to Mr Outen— online activity. It is absolutely core business for investigators. Chair: Yes. Keith Bristow:—who had been offered the post in economic crime, Mr Outen stepped back for personal Q48 Michael Ellis: Have you seen this Committee’s report on e-crime? reasons. Keith Bristow: Yes, I have. Q53 Chair: But you are vetting all these people Q49 Michael Ellis: Will you be trying to take because, clearly, if you are dealing with economic forward the recommendations from it? crime you need to be very careful who is going to be directors. I am not casting any aspersions on him, but Keith Bristow: There is a lot of sense in the report that we want to build into how we take this forward, the vetting process obviously you are happy with it, but I have to say we have a real challenge. I think that are you? is pretty widely known and understood, and it was Keith Bristow: The vetting process is extremely shown in your report. We have a very real challenge rigorous and there will be no compromise around about ramping up the law enforcement response, but personal standards. I am very confident that the National Cyber Crime Unit, and the work that police forces and law Q54 Chair: When do you think you will fill these enforcement are doing, is starting to strengthen the two jobs because obviously we have been waiting for response in the way that we would all like to see. two years for your arrival? Now you have been vested. Michael Ellis: I think we should have a look at this There are two that are still interim, Mr Webb and Mr when you have had some time to get into the area, so Pearce seems to be interim. Is Mr Pearce interim? He thank you. seems to be doing two jobs. He is not only the Director of Operations with a staff of 2,274 but he is Q50 Chair: Mr Bristow, I am sure you have been also the Director of Economic Crime with a staff of following our inquiry into SOCA and private 200. He is a pretty remarkable man. investigators. Trevor Pearce is now working with you. Keith Bristow: That is true. Mr Pearce’s substantive One of the points made by the Information role is as Director of Operations. We have just had a Commissioner is that he lacks the space to conduct the discussion had about Mr Outen not joining us. Mr investigation that he has decided to commence into a Pearce is covering that post and Mr Chatfield is on a number of private companies and individuals that temporary basis acting as a director. have come to the attention of the Information Commissioner this year, brought to his attention by Q55 Chair: So there is a new person in? this Committee. Is he in negotiations with you for you Keith Bristow: Yes, he is— to give him office space or additional staff to deal with that? Q56 Chair: What has happened to Mr Webb? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

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15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM

Keith Bristow: Mr Webb is interim. He is on loan to Secretary. What steps are you taking to make sure that us from the Home Office and the post for Corporate the next inquiry or review into a child abuse scandal Services will be competed shortly. does not say it fell between two agencies and nobody was clear about who was responsible for what? Q57 Chair: Of these people—and excuse me if I just Keith Bristow: You describe the landscape correctly, give their surnames, Bristow, Gormley, Armond, in the sense that there are a lot of agencies, some Davies, Meldrum, Symington, Webb and Pearce— national, some voluntary, some local. It is a complex how many are police officers, or former Chief set of agencies that have a legitimate role. Part of what Constables or know about law enforcement? How we are doing for the CEOP command, as we are for many have come in from outside? the other commands, is forming a group that oversees Keith Bristow: Do you want me to go through them the work, which will include voluntary sector wider one by one? law enforcement to work through the strategic Chair: No, just of your eight directors. approach to tackling child exploitation. We have quite Keith Bristow: I could not give you a number off the a different role. This is about bringing a national top of my head unless I can go through all of them. capability to tackle child exploitation, and over the What I would say is— coming weeks and months you will see the sort of Chair: We know you are the former Chief Constable operations that we can do as NCA focused on child of Warwickshire. exploitation that CEOP could not have done. Keith Bristow: I am no longer a police officer. I am We are working very hard to make sure that we are an NCA officer. integrated. I think CEOP have a very strong history Chair: Your last job was a Chief Constable so you and a proven track record around effective are a police officer in your blood if not in your job partnerships. We are building on that, and in fact we description. are replicating it in some of what we do on the other Keith Bristow: Yes. was a Chief threats where we have a leadership responsibility. Constable, and remains so on secondment from Norfolk Police at the moment, and there are a number Q62 Mr Winnick: Among the worst criminals and of other directors that come from that background and potential criminals, as we know at the moment, are some that do not. those who want to murder as many as possible, including fellow Muslims. Do you take the view, Mr Q58 Chair: There seem to be a lot of people who are Bristow, that before there is any question of your seconded, after a year and a half of waiting for this. organisation taking the lead in counterterrorism, the Keith Bristow: I was seconded until 6 October organisation that you now head should be bedded because we did not exist as an agency and, therefore, down for a number of years? a Director General could not be appointed on a Keith Bristow: That is the Home Secretary’s view and permanent basis. What we will now do is go through that is the most important aspect of this. My view is the process of where we have colleagues who shall be the system that we have at the moment is effective joining us permanently, converting those into and has a proven track record. NCA can bring permanent contracts. something to that, in terms of how we share capability across counterterrorism and serious and organised Q59 Chair: Are you still dealing with Sacristy and crime threats. In due course there will be a review on Pallial, or have you stopped doing other things apart how we do all of that, and how we deliver the best from your job as head of the NCA because obviously results for the public possible. However that review it is a very demanding job. decides these capabilities should be delivered is what Keith Bristow: I am still dealing with both. Pallial is we will do. now a proper NCA investigation and resourced as such alongside police colleagues, and Sacristy I am Q63 Mr Winnick: For the moment you accept that still leading. the lead should continue to be the ? Q60 Chair: Do you have the time to do all this stuff Keith Bristow: I believe that if there was going to be as well as being head of this new organisation and a change there would be a review. It would be bringing it all together? It sounds like a very big job. evidenced based, and we would all support doing what Keith Bristow: Yes. You would expect me to work was going to be the right thing to keep the public safe. hard and that is exactly what I am doing. Chair: I will come to counterterrorism in a minute, Q64 Chair: Just in respect of the SOCA files, you but Mr McCabe is bursting to begin to ask a question. have obviously inherited a lot of files from SOCA. You are not responsible for what has happened in the Q61 Steve McCabe: Good afternoon, Mr Bristow. I past, that is absolutely clear and you are right to say appreciate it is very early days, but I want to try to that. But is there going to be a review of those files to clarify something about the work in relation to child make sure that there is nothing left in there that ought protection. CEOP falls within the NCA. You are to be acted upon because, of course, it is this accountable to the Home Secretary and if she Committee that found out there was a lot of stuff that determines you are inspected by the HMIC. General came out of Millipede that was not acted upon, which child protection services in this country fall within the has led to the Information Commissioner’s Department for Education. They are inspected by investigation. Is someone going to conduct the review OFSTED and they are accountable to the Education or are there just too many to look through? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [19-11-2013 14:49] Job: 034705 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034705/034705_o001_MP HC 659-i CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT.xml

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15 October 2013 Keith Bristow QPM

Keith Bristow: The reality is we are inheriting 7½ Keith Bristow: Yes, but if there are issues in the past years’ worth of casework, and the casework that went that we can learn from or could be done differently in from the precursor agencies before that, the Crime the future, or there are issues that need to be picked Squad, NCIS, Customs and others. If I was going to up and taken forward we will do that. What I do not initiate a review of all of that I would not be doing want to do is to dedicate the whole of our crime much crime fighting. We would mostly be looking fighting workforce to reviewing older investigations. I through historic investigations. That being said, all of want us to focus on bringing people to justice now. the information that we hold is held in line with all of the guidance around management of police Q66 Chair: Sure. Mr Bristow, this Committee wishes information and all of the approved professional you the best of luck. We are very interested in the practice, and is scrutinised throughout the NCA because it has come up under our watch during investigative process. If there was a reason to review our time on this Committee. We will be writing to you a particular investigation or intelligence report or a on a regular basis for updates but we will not disturb file of evidence, then it would be rigorously reviewed, you too much because you want to be out there but no we are not going from top to bottom on arresting people, but it would be very helpful to have everything that we have been handed. timely responses to our letters and I look forward to receiving the reply to the letter I sent you. Q65 Chair: So somebody will need to write in and Keith Bristow: Thank you, Chairman. say, “Oh by the way, this has been discovered” or Chair: The best of luck. “could you look into this” or “there is specific Keith Bristow: Thank you. evidence that you might want to look into”, but you Chair: Thank you. want to spend your time out there disrupting the gangs and the criminal organisations rather than look at the past. Is that right? cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [SE] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

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Written evidence

Letter from Keith Bristow, Director General, National Crime Agency, to the Chair of the Committee, 18 September 2013 National Crime Agency I am writing in response to your letter requesting information about the National Crime Agency (NCA); including precursor functions transferring into the NCA and the staffing of the NCA Commands. In this response I will focus only on the functions that are transferring into the NCA and not on issues beyond the NCA relating to the wider policing landscape.

NCA Commands As set out in the NCA Plan, published in June 2011, the NCA will include the following four Commands: — Organised Crime Command. — Border Policing Command. — Economic Crime Command. — Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command. All four Commands will have the following core functions: — Identifying and coordinating delivery against key threats. — Overseeing delivery of NCA-Ied and NCA-supported work with partners. — Managing specialist relationships. — Developing new capabilities to address gaps. Each will be led by a Director. In addition there are also Directors for Intelligence/Operations (which includes the National Cyber Crime Unit) and Corporate Services. NCA officers will have the skills and necessary powers to conduct flexible investigations across all NCA activity, in support of all the NCA Commands, National Cyber Crime Unit and partners. For example, dealing with child sexual exploitation is an integral part of the NCA, and the CEOP Command will have greater capacity for operational delivery by being able to draw upon the resources and specialisms of the whole Agency rather than operating in isolation. In addition the NCA as a whole has a statutory duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children in England and Wales and all NCA officers are being trained on this. The details you requested on the commands, along with similar information for other parts of the NCA, is attached at Annex A with further details set out in this letter.

NCA Core Functions The NCA’s statutory functions are set out in the Crime and Courts Act 2013, being: i) a “crime-reduction function” of securing that efficient and effective activities to combat organised crime and serious crime are carried out (whether by the NCA, other Law enforcement agencies, or other persons); and ii) a “criminal- intelligence function”. The NCA will be’ established from its precursor agencies, namely: — Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA), the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) and some elements of NPlA as detailed below: 4090 officers. — Police Central e-Crime Unit (PCeU): 78 officers to be located in NCA Operations. Some elements of the National Policing Improvement Agency—the Proceeds of Crime Centre, Central Witness Bureau, Crime Operational Support Unit, Serious Crime Analysis Section, Centre and National Missing Persons Bureau—have already transferred into SOCA as part of the work to transfer these functions into the NCA. With the exception of the Proceeds of Crime Centre, which will transfer to the Economic Crime Command, these will transfer to NCA Operations. In total 188 officers have transferred into SOCA from the NPIA in advance of the NCA and have been counted in SOCA’s overall total as above. The Criminal and Financial Investigation (CFI) (Borders) teams, formerly part of UKBA, will also transfer· into the Border Policing command, consisting of 269 officers. The NCA will also shortly begin a recruitment campaign for several hundred trainee officers.

NCA Budget As I explained in my letter to you dated 12 July 2013, the NCA will be delivered within the budget of its precursor organisations. SOCA’s budget (which includes CEOP) will form the bulk ofthe budget for the NCA. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

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From “go-live” in October, the NCA will organise its budgets to provide focus on the NCA operational priorities, which will be set out in the NCA Annual Plan, and will invest in future capability for tackling serious and organised crime.

Parliamentary approval will be sought for the NCA’s budget for the full year of 2013–14, Which will include the expenditure incurred by its precursors (principally SOCA) prior to “go live” for £422.1m Resource; £12.9m budgeted income; and £23.9m supplementary funding from other government departments. The NCA’s total spending power will be £458.9m Resource, and £16m Capital. In addition to this the Home Office has now identified further capital funding of £15m in year, which will be reflected in the NCA’s Supplementary Estimate. Keith Bristow QPM Director General National Crime Agency

Annex A Number of officers appointed from organisations which have not been subsumed within the NCA and of those a) from which organisation they come and b) how many come Number of from each of those Post Head Salary Previous role Posts1 organisations Director Keith Bristow £214,722 Chief As below General Constable, Warwickshire Police

Deputy Director Philip Gormley £181,455 Chief 252 General Constable,

Director, Border David Armond £139,119 Deputy Director 621 Policing International, SOCA

Director, Child Peter Davies £129, 744 Chief 992 Exploitation Executive, and Online CEOP Protection (seconded from Command Lincolnshire Police)

Director, Gordon Meldrum £132, 256 Director 120 Organised General, Crime Scottish Crime Command and Drugs Enforcement Agency

Director of Tim Symington £105,456 Head of 844 Intelligence Transport Security Strategy, DfT

Director of Trevor Pearce £133,782 Director 2,274 Operations (Gary Chatfield General, SOCA Temp)

1 Total post numbers do not match officer numbers detailed as joining the NCA from precursors on previous page due to turnover, and plans to expand the agency by recruiting additional officers 2 Some of the functions formerly undertaken by CEOP are now being undertaken by other parts of the NCA. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

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Number of officers appointed from organisations which have not been subsumed within the NCA and of those a) from which organisation they come and b) how many come Number of from each of those Post Head Salary Previous role Posts organisations Director, Stephen Webb £86,710 Interim 4803 Corporate (Interim) Programme Services Director and SRO, Emergency Services Mobile Communications Programme, Home Office

Economic Trevor Pearce 200 Crime (Interim)

Total 4,890 754

Letter from Stephen Rimmer, Chair, Serious Organised Crime Agency, to the Chair of the Committee, 20 September 2013 Thank you for your letter of 1 0 September in which you ask for further information on potential conflicts of interest and on the transition to the National Crime Agency (NCA). 2. SOCA Board procedures include a requirement for members to complete and maintain a register of declaration of interests including financial and non-financial interests. The register of interests must be kept up to date and is a public document. In the declaration itself, a section covers companies and it notes that should a Board member need to update this declaration they are required to do so as soon as possible. 3. There is a clear delineation between the roles and responsibilities of the SOCA Board and that of the Director General of SOCA, who has general operational control over SOCA’s activities including oversight of SOCA’s operational functions and how such operations are conducted. The SOCA Board, with a majority of non-executive members, has corporate responsibility for ensuring that SOCA discharges its statutory responsibilities. For this reason, with the exception of the former SOCA Chair, it was in line with standard practice for the non-executive directors not to have seen the client lists that were provided to the Committee on 22 July. At the SOCA Board meeting on 24 July, the Director General informed the Board about current issues in respect of private investigators, and SOCA’s engagement with the Committee over this issue. 4. Given the Committee’s concerns raised at the session on 3 September, I made arrangements to sight each of the current Board members—executive and non-executive and on an individual basis—on the contents of the lists accordingly and to seek their reassurances. I can confirm that I am completely satisfied that no conflicts of interest around this issue were identified with any individual member of the Board. 5. As you know, I separately wrote to you on 10 September about the incorrect statement made by the Committee that Francis Plowden was a ‘director of Serco Plc.’ SOCA Board procedures require Board members to avoid any risk of being influenced, or appearing to be influenced, by their personal interests when carrying out SOCA duties. Any personal interest or business interest that might influence, or appear to influence, a Board member’s judgement must be declared. Under this provision, when Francis became a SOCA nonexecutive director, he declared his Serco shareholding- because, at the time, Serco was a supplier to SOCA and bidding for the renewal of SOCA’s IT contract. When Serco ceased to be a supplier, this potential conflict of interest ceased and it became no longer necessary to declare this shareholding. Francis continues to hold these shares. 6. Peter Clarke was also specifically referred to in the session. He has asked me to reaffirm that he has never conducted private investigations, has never to his knowledge worked with or for anyone who conducts private investigations, and so far as he is aware has no connections to any organisation that has used private investigators. Other than his charitable and academic interests, his work mainly consists of advising clients in 3 This figure includes 97 staff who are undergoing full time training programmes for future deployment such as on the High Potential Development Scheme and appointment to International Liaison Officer posts. 4 This figure represents the number of inwards secondees. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

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the public and private sectors, in the UK and overseas, on matters such as crisis management, counter terrorism, the protection of critical national infrastructure and related subjects. 7. For completeness, can I just again make the point- as I did at the Committee hearing that Sir Ian Andrews’ resignation was not linked to any conflict of interest in respect of private investigators. It was directly and solely as a consequence of a failure to register a specific business appointment. 8. I should also add that my own financial and non-financial interests extend only to being a trustee of the Civil Service Charity. 9. On the transition to the NCA, I understand Keith Bristow wrote to you on 18 September setting out the number of SOCA officers transferring to the NCA. The number of retirees since the inception of SOCA is set out in the table at Annex A. A Cabinet Office early exit scheme has been carried out, targeted at senior officers, in support of the NCA’s ambition of a leaner management structure and a further realignment of resources to focus on front-line operational delivery. 27 staff have exited SOCA as part of this, at a total cost of £2.6m. 10. SOCA casework will transfer to NCA in its entirety when it goes live. SOCA has been participating in shadow working since February to assist in a smooth transition, and have done so effectively in my judgement. 11. Trevor Pearce will be writing to you separately in respect of the operational matters on which he agreed to provide you further information. Stephen Rimmer Chair Serious Organised Crime Agency

Annex A NUMBER OF RETIREMENTS FROM SOCA Year Number 2006–07 119 2007–08 245 2008–09 292 2009–10 172 2010–11 238 2011–12 219 2012–13 176 2013 to date 143

Letter from Keith Bristow, Director General, National Crime Agency, to the Chair of the Committee, 15 October 2013 National Crime Agency 1. Further to your letter of 20 August, my reply of 18 September, and your subsequent letters of 8 October and 10 October, I am writing with further information about the establishment of National Crime Agency (NCA). 2. As per our discussion in session this afternoon, the NCA is unable to provide information about elements of the policing landscape which have not transferred to it. For this reason my letter of 18 September endeavoured to set out a clear position for the Committee only in respect of NCA and its precursors. On receipt of your letter of 8 October, I was of course anxious that the Committee should receive, in full, the information it required, and therefore to obtain your approval for the missing aspects to be dealt with by the Home Office, as policy lead. I had understood that this had been granted but clearly we misunderstood your position and requirements in this respect. I would like to apologise to the Committee for any inconvenience this has caused. 3. The three grids in question are contained as appendices to this letter, with appropriate information included.5 Your grid B did not set out a requirement for information related to UK Borders Agency or the Metropolitan Police Service. However, for completeness this is included in the amendments we have made to your grid A. Questions in Grid B relating to the wider policing landscape have been referred to Home Office Officials, who will be providing a separate response. 4. In addition, in your letter dated 10 October, sent by email on 14 October, you set out a number of further questions relating to the handling of information, and asked me to come equipped with answers to the session today. I trust that my response today was sufficient, but for clarity set out answers in writing below, using the numbers you have provided: (11) Who now controls the files of previous investigations performed by SOCA? 5 Grid C was previously printed as Annex A of the letter dated 18 September. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

Ev 14 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

All the intelligence and information held by SOCA, including in respect of previous investigations led by SOCA, has transferred to the NCA. (12) Where are these files kept? This information is stored on NCA systems in line with those contained in the Guidance on The Management of Police Information (2010) and the Authorised Professional Practice (APP) applied to police forces in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. (13) How many files have been transferred over from SOCA? Significant amounts of information and intelligence was transferred across from SOCA to the NCA. To give a give a sense of scale this relates to seven years of SOCA case work and intelligence, in addition to that which transferred into SOCA from its precursors. There are currently 37,000 individuals mapped under organised crime group mapping, and SOCA held information on each of these. (14) Will there be a review of those files conducted by the NCA? All information and intelligence held by the NCA is reviewed regularly in accordance with the NCA’s intelligence handling procedures. (15) If so, when will this review take place? The information will be reviewed on a rolling ongoing basis. For example where the information relates to an individual or organised crime group (OCG) that is included in organised crime group mapping (OCGM), and is still involved in organised crime, the information will be reviewed as part of the current operational activity against that individual or OCG. (16) If so, who will conduct this review? Information in respect of a mapped organised crime group or individual will be reviewed by the Senior Investigating Officer responsible for that OCG or individual. 5. Finally, I would like to thank you for your encouraging words about the NCA. I look forward to updating the Committee about our progress in the coming months and years. Keith Bristow QPM Director General National Crime Agency

THE NATIONAL CRIME AGENCY — Director General: Keith Bristow. — Deputy Director General: Phil Gormley. — Director Operations: Trevor Pearce (Gary Chatfield, temp). — Director, Border Policing Command: David Armond. — Director, Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command: Peter Davies. — Director, Organised Crime Command (OCC): Gordon Meldrum. — Director, Economic Crime Command: Trevor Pearce (interim). — Director, Corporate Services: Stephen Webb (interim). — Director, Intelligence: Tim Symington. — The Agency will have approximately 4,890 post6s, plus volunteer “NCA Specials”. — 2013–14 budget: £494m7.

6 The total posts do not match the officer numbers joining the NCA from precursors due to plans to expand the agency by recruiting additional officers. 7 This comprises £422m resource; £14.3m budgeted income (which has increased since Keith Bristow’s letter to the Chairman of the Committee of 18 September to reflect additional Asset Recovery Incentivisation Scheme income ); £26.2m supplementary funding from other government departments (since the letter of 18 September additional funding has been secured from FCO and DFID); and £16.6m capital from SOCA and £15m additional capital allocation from the Home Office. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

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Agency Function Location SOCA Preventing and detecting serious organised crime; and Transferred to NCA (all 4,090 officers contributing to the reduction of such crime in other ways and Director areas) 2013–14 to the mitigation of its consequences. budget: The Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) centre £401m8 was affiliated to SOCA and accountable through the SOCA £16.6m9 Board. Including staff and resource from CEOP and NPIA functions.

National Proceeds of Crime Centre Transferred to NCA Police (Economic Crime Improvement Command) Agency Central Witness Bureau Transferred to NCA 188 officers (Operations) transferred Crime Operational Support Unit Transferred to NCA into SOCA (Operations) and are in the Serious Crime Analysis section Transferred to NCA figure above. (Operations) £10m, Specialist Operations Centre Transferred to NCA 2013–14 (net; (Operations) included in National Missing Persons Bureau Transferred to NCA SOCA budget (Operations) above)

CEOP 109 Child protection Transfer to NCA CEOP officers Command (included in the SOCA figures above). £7m, 2013–14 (included in SOCA budget above)

UKBA Criminal and Financial Investigation (CFI) teams Transferred to NCA (Border 269 officers Policing Command) 2012–13 budget: £21m 10 Metropolitan Police Central e-Crime Unit Transfer to NCA Police Service (Operations—National 78 officers Cyber Crime Unit) 2012–13 Counter-terrorism No decision has been made budget: on the future of counter- £7m11 terrorism policing structures in England and Wales. The Home Secretary has been clear that any review will happen only after the NCA is established.

8 Resource 9 Capital 10 Resource 11 National Cyber Security Programme included in Supplementary funding, as referred to in foot note 2. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [03-12-2013 15:13] Job: 034705 Unit: PG02

Ev 16 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence National Crime Agency (2013/14) budget £494m posts; 4,890 The newThe landscape of policing ) fficers; CEOP (2013/14 £7m budget £7m budget 109 o elements transferringto NCA fficers. £401m resource resource £401m fficers. 188 officers. £10m budget (2013/14) (2013/14) budget £10m 188 officers. National Policing Improvement Agency Agency Improvement Policing National Serious Organised Crime Agency o 4,090 (2013/14). capital £16.6m budget, detailed NPIA and CEOP (including elsewherethis on chart) The old landscape of policing landscape old The

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