DIGRTAL BROADCAST SYMPOSIUM

TREVOR UFFELMAN: Good afternoon and wel- sion band for digital television-with the concept come to the Digital Broadcast Panel. This panel is of transitioning the country over a period of years being moderated by Richard Wiley, of Wiley, Rein from analog television to digital television, ulti- & Fielding. Mr. Wiley is currently a senior partner mately phasing out the channels we are all watch- and the head of Wiley, Rein & Fielding's commu- ing television on, and returning that spectrum to nications practice. From 1970 to 1977, he served the public for other uses. The transition initially as the General Counsel, Commissioner, and was designed to end in 2006. We will have to see Chairman of the FCC. He is also the former Presi- whether that date is going to hold with our panel dent of the FBA and the FCBA, and former chair today. We also are going to examine the current of the FCC's advisory committee on advanced tel- and possible future state of the digital television evision service, and former chair of the ABA sec- transition, the services that digital television may tion of administrative law and regulatory practice, provide, the benefits associated with it, and the re- the ABA forum committee on communications maining problems that our panel may see in the law, and the Board of editors for the ABAjournal. transition. As moderator, I suggest that we pro- He is frequently named as one of the National ceed in a fast moving question-and-answer format Law Journal's Top 100 Most Influential Lawyers. that will allow us to cover a lot of ground rapidly Please welcome Mr. Wiley. and perhaps more interestingly than talking heads. Now to use that format you basically have RICHARD WILEY: Thank you very much. There to have two ingredients. First, a set of provocative, are a lot of "formers" that I have been, but I am equally unfair questions, and I got some and I actually here today. We are really pleased to have know that you will help me a little later. And sec- all of you here, and it is an honor and privilege ond, a group of informed, articulate and fearless for me to return to Catholic University, the Co- panelists, and we have those here as well. So very lumbus Law School, with my old friends Harvey rapidly let's meet them, and I will be brief because Zuckman and Bill Fox. they are very well known. Ladies and Gentlemen, we are going to talk about On my far left is Peter Fannon, Vice President of digital broadcasting, digital television if you will. the Washington office for Panasonic, where he di- In 1987, the FCC became aware that research and rects the company's legislative and government af- development had been going on in western Eu- fairs, particularly in digital television. Before join- rope and Japan for nearly a decade into what was ing Panasonic, he was President of the Advanced called "advanced television." Therefore, the FCC Television Test Center, which was the official and decided tojumpstart the U.S. effort in this area by futuristic laboratory which tested all the advanced establishing an industry advisory committee, television systems that the industry advisory com- which I was privileged to chair. I was told that it mittee referred to them. He did a truly superla- was going to be a two year effort. Nine years later tive job. I can tell you that from first hand experi- we turned in our final report, but when you are ence. having fun, who is counting? In 1995, the com- mittee recommended a digital broadcasting stan- Next is Rick Chessen. Rick is the Chairman of the dard that was applicable to cable and satellite as FCC's Digital Television Taskforce, and Associate well, that ultimately would replace the NTSC stan- Chief of the Media Bureau. In my opinion, along dard for analog television (which was adopted, if with Chairman Powell and his immediate boss, you can believe this, back in 1941, then colorized Bureau Chief Ken Ferree, Rick has been the hero in the early fifties). The FCC followed through, in in stimulating the private sector to move ahead 1996, by adopting a digital broadcast standard with the digital transition and guiding the Com- largely based on the advisory committee's recom- mission to resolve some of the remaining transi- mendations. Thereafter, it issued service rules for tion issues. digital broadcasting and gave broadcasters a tem- porary loan of a second channel within the televi- Next, we have Susan Fox, and Susan is going to be COMMLAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12 with us for just one question today, the first ques- real push from other potential users of their spec- tion, because unfortunately one of her children is trum coming at them fast and furious. Our spec- sick and she has to leave. Susan, we are really trum is limited and there are real demands from sorry about that, but we understand. She is Vice wireless and other users to get that spectrum. We President for Government Relations for The Walt know that we have got to use it and use it well. Disney Company, here in Washington, a company The other entities have their own competitive which, of course, owns ABC. Prior to joining Dis- pressures. Cable has competitive pressures, vis-a- ney, Susan was Deputy Chief of the FCC's Mass vis satellite. My view is that over the last year there Media Bureau, as it was called then, and was the have been big changes, certainly since the time first and very capable head of the commission's that ABC started airing Monday Night Football in DTV Taskforce, the one that Mr. Chessen now high-def because we did it for a season and then heads. we didn't. Coming back on the air in high-def this year was a huge difference. We are now air- And then we have John Lawson, who is President ing a ton of high definition programming prime and CEO of the Association of Public Television time, special events, and we even aired the State Stations, an organization of over 350 stations of the Union Address in high-def. I am not sure strong. John has been extremely active and very what demand there is for the State of the Union effective, I know, in guiding the non-commercial in high def, as opposed to the State of the Union stations' convergence to digital television, and in analog, but it is a statement that we are actually helping them explore the various uses of digital going towards general programming being aired technology. in high-def which I think is important. Obviously, And last but not least, Mr. Michael Godwin, who is there are a lot of perspectives on these issues and the First Deputy Counsel for the Electronic Fron- this is something that I will miss this afternoon, tier Foundation. He was also counsel of record in especially quibbling with Mike about content pro- Reno v. ACLU. Michael is now senior technology tection. We were also appreciative of the FCC's counsel for Public Knowledge, where he special- efforts throughout the fall to enact the broadcast izes in technology policy, including copyright, flag, which will only prohibit free content coming and, of course, the DTV transition. over the air from being redistributed over the In- ternet, and it won't affect folks' home copying. So, Susan, I promised you the first question and We think that will have a positive effect as well. As digital tel- here it is. I said that I thought that the you may or may not know, broadcast television evision transition was making progress. Do you shows are available on the Web, can be file shared to make a also sense that it is finally beginning and that will only increase, particularly with the and, if so, why is real move in the marketplace high quality of high-def signals. The only other that happening? thing that I would say is that I think we are now at a point where everyone has moved forward a step. SUSAN FOX: I do. I think that the only possible We are probably waiting collectively for the next thing that is harder than keeping three children round of FCC decisions, which I knowJohn is very moderately healthy during cold and flu season, is active in and obviously Rick is. At that point, I getting all aspects of the digital television transi- think hopefully that we will see another giant leap tion actually moving at the same time. You can that will get us closer to the finish line. I do apol- see that fact with Disney-ABC where we are both a ogize very much for having to leave, so thank you. content provider, obviously for the ABC network, but we also own television stations. We are also a content producer in that we make movies that we RICHARD WILEY: Thank you. Let us give her a hope to see aired on television over-the-air for round of applause. (Applause). Good luck, Su- free. I think that over the last eighteen months, san, at home. I am sure that everything will be due largely to the efforts of Rick Chessen, Chair- just fine. Well, our panel is going to be much less man Powell, and Ken Ferree, there really has attractive now and much less diverse, but we are been an agreement that everyone will take a step going to be friendly at least! I will put questions forward, coupled with everyone's own commercial to particular panelists, but I would like to invite reasons. The broadcasters, I think, see the very other members of the panel to join in if they also 2004] Digital Broadcast Symposium want to comment. Peter, is HDTV, which has a may do with television content more in the future picture quality some five to six times better than than they are today. analog television, going to be the "killer app," so to speak, that everybody has been looking for, in RICHARD WILEY: Rick? digital television? RICK CHESSEN: I agree with what people are PETER FANNON: I think that is a fair statement. saying, that HDTV is certainly a "killer app," but I In fact, I think that it is the only "killer app" for am really hopeful that digital is so much more the immediate future, even though the construc- than that, as everybody has been saying. That tion of the digital platform through other media there is going to be additional "killer apps" in the make other things possible. Especially interactive future. Nobody has mentioned multi-casting yet. programming possible on those media like cable I think multi-casting, in certain situations, is going that currently have a two-way connectability. The to be very attractive to people, in news, fast-break- reality of making all of those things work in a re- ing situations. There has been one set of broad- ally easy, sort of, transparent way for consumers is casters in Utah, that are putting together to pro- very difficult, as twenty years of experimentation vide basically a multi-channel video service, a pay has proved. So while interactive programming, service. Something like ten or eleven of the most and all kinds of additional things above and be- popular channels are being provided over the air yond traditional programming in very high qual- using multi-casting capabilities. I am a big be- ity, like HDTV, will come, I think that HDTV is liever in interactive, eventually. Ijust think that it the driver. Certainly, my company sees that as the is a question of when, and not whether. I think driver currently for people to buy into new televi- the infrastructure gets deployed and the set top sion sets. Because now, of course, the screens and box capabilities are set up, and the net connectiv- displays can truly show the real value that is being ity increases, and as the generation, frankly, be- transmitted over the air through cable or satellite. hind us, gets to adulthood, interactivity is going to play a bigger and bigger role, and the real bene- RICHARD WILEY: Mike, did you want to com- fits of digital are going to increase exponentially. ment? RICHARD WILEY: John, when I was running the MICHAEL GODWIN: Yes, I think that Peter is advisory committee, one thing that always im- right, HDTV is certainly going to drive the transi- pressed me was that non-commercial stations tion more than any other variety of digital televi- came to me and said their vision was, during the sion. But I think that it is television, plus time daytime, multicasting in which they could divide shifting and other kinds of uses consumers make up the bits into four or five channels of quality with increasingly digital video recorders, personal similar to what we have today. And then at night, video recorders. One of the things people are go- perhaps, high definition for the prime time audi- ing to do when they invest in the more expensive ence. Is that still the vision of public television? digital televisions is to decide how they are going to get the return on that investment, and one way JOHN LAWSON: It is certainly a large part of it, to get the best value for their entertainment dol- Dick. I recall asking Mark Richter, our friend who lar is personal video recorders. This actually runs the ATFC now, years ago, which was going to brings up what Susan alluded to, which is the con- be successful-high definition, multicast, or data- tent protection issue. I think that one of the casting the PCs. And he said, they will all co-exist things that we have seen is that the content prov- and they will all be successful. We are in a period iders are very uncomfortable with the range of of experimentation right now, where bigband for uses that people have begun to make of the televi- high definition, particularly for prime-time, but sion that they do timeshifting on. So we are going we are staking out new territory. We are moving to see an increasing tension. I think that we are to multiple program streams in the analog world. seeing it in further FCC proceedings, and we are For example, WETA, here, has to make a very dif- going to see increasing tension between consum- ficult choice between serving kids, or seniors, or K ers and the content companies about content pro- through 12 education, or post-secondary educa- tection technologies that may restrict what people tion. That goes away. So multi-casting will defi- COMMELAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12 nitely be a part of it. I am sure we will talk about prime time in high definition. But local broad- cable carriage in a moment. The really exciting cast stations are only primarily passing through thing that we are finding is data-casting. Where that network programming, at the very most. you use the ATS-6 signal. It is a lot of bandwidth, Very few stations are actually originating digital 19.4 megabits/second, to reach PCs. It is an in- broadcasts. Do you think that is going to change, credible point to multi-point distribution technol- John, in the future? And how important would ogy. That is really what DTV is. It is a wireless that factor be to moving the digital transition data distribution system. There is commercial off- along? the-shelf technology-tuner cards, and antennas to allow you to send big amounts of Internet pro- JOHN LAWSON: I think that it is changing. In tocol data over the air. Our stations are pioneer- fact, our stations have raised and spent about $1 ing the use of that for education, workforce train- billion for this digital transition. Most of the ing, and there is obvious implications for home- money came from state governments. Private land security and emergency communications. sources. The federal government is finally step- ping in and picking up where the states have left RICHARD WILEY: Now Mike, if broadcasters off. The initial requirements from our stations were to use all the bits for multi-casting or data- were transmitters and towers and the nuts and casting, do you think that there should be some bolts of getting the signal out. We monitor this enhanced public interest obligations on broad- very closely with our stations, as their advocates casters beyond the public interest mandate that here in Washington. There is a huge interest in normally is required of broadcasting? high definition cameras, in studio upgrades, in everything in the production chain you need to MICHAEL GODWIN: I don't think that there do for local production in high definition. I am should be an enhanced public interest obligation. telling you, as Peter knows, our stations are get- It is not normally how I think about it when we ting great deals on these cameras. Production come to the question of multi-casting. What I costs in many ways are dropping. Post-production find myself thinking more often is that there is is still cheap. I think that we are going to see a re- sort of a different role that multi-casting plays for birth of local programming from public televi- the public television stations than it does for the sion. Partially it is driven by the need to fill up commercial networks. This is because the com- these multi-cast channels. I also think that the mercial networks are competing for eyeballs in a HD itself, and digital interactive capabilities have way that the public stations are not. I think that created a lot of interest in our production com- what the public interest part of public television munity and our stations to really leverage that has been is that they are going to be at the cutting technology. So, I think that we are going to see edge of experimentation with multi-casting pre- more and more high definition, not only pro- cisely because they are not, when they engage in duced locally and aired locally, but swapped multi-casting, they are not competing with them- around the country. selves for audience and eyeballs. They are actu- sectors that are ally experimenting with different RICHARD WILEY: And you think this is true the need to rack up Nielson not quite so driven by with commercial broadcasting as well? points. So to me, the public interest obligation falls, in the multi-casting area, in terms of al- high defini- lowing the greatest degree of experimentation JOHN LAWSON: I believe so. I have I don't find the possible for our public television stations. tion. I have had it for four years. State of the Union address boring, and I actually RICHARD WILEY: I would have asked Susan this thought that it was better in high definition. My next question, but I will put it to John Lawson. thing about the local news is, and public affairs, Broadcast, cable and satellite networks are trans- which is the thrust of local programming for com- mitting a lot of digital programs today, particu- mercial stations, high definition allows me to tell larly in the high definition format. We see it more easily if a public official is lying to me more and more with each passing year. The tele- (laughter). I think that consumers are going to vision networks are basically doing most of their demand it. 20041 Digital Broadcast Symposium

RICHARD WILEY: Peter, through the last seven sion is going to continue to allow us to have more years since we adopted the standard, there have ... services? been a lot of disagreements on the standard (scanning, formats, modulation schemes, etc.). I PETER FANNON: Indeed, yes. When these won't go into technical details. But now after all things actually come together, I think that you will of that has been concluded, ATSC, the DTV stan- find an extraordinary burst of energy and applica- dard setting body, is considering a modification of tion of R&D to exploit that among programmers, the standard to help indoor reception and porta- among distributors, among competing service bility or mobility, if you will. Is that going to be a providers, and certainly among manufacturers good thing, or could it possibly cause more confu- who are pretty competitive as it is ... down to that sion? Perhaps diminish HDTV, and maybe slow one percent return on investment. down the transition? What do you think? RICHARD WILEY: Mike did you want to com- PETER FANNON: I think the answer to that is ment on this? "yes"-literally, it is good news and bad news. The great news about digital is, of course, that you MICHAEL GODWIN: Yes, I think that one of the now have disconnected the capability of doing things we are seeing is, to sort of answer your certain things, including in the transmission and question, is that the adoption of HD has been un- what you have at home, from the original source. coupled from the broadcasting standard. I think In the past, it was the exact same mechanism from early adopters, the people who are picking the camera to the screen in the home. But now through, and increasingly the mainstream of they are separable, and you can manage that data America who are buying these HD sets, are buying stream, as the others have implied here on the them often to hang off of cable systems or home panel, in just about any way you wish. And you entertainment systems, you know connected to have a giant broadband pipe to do it. So, it is not satellite, or even just to watch DVD. So what you surprising that as technologies emerge and new have is sources of content that are not broadcast notions come along about services that you want sources of content that are driving-I think more to either change or enhance what is already there. than the broadcast standard is-the adoption of I think that the challenge always is, not just for HD as a medium. HD as something of an en- digital television, but for any medium, and any tertainment preference. That is not to say that larger standard setting activity in industry, to be ATSC is not doing the right thing by improving sure that you don't disenfranchise or undercut upon its standard. I think, in fact, that it is doing what you started-with not just good intentions, the right thing because there have been some but for all the right [public policy] reasons. So glitches in trying to get reception as reliable as we the ATSC, in this first step for enhancement, has want it to be, especially indoor reception. I think adopted a voluntary add-on mechanism, some- one of the advantages of the fact that people are thing that could conceivably, if used [to its maxi- receiving their television content more through mum extent], sort of clip off the edge of HD qual- cable and satellite has been that as ATSC im- ity in a given channel. But, the reverse of that is proves, it is not going to be a real hitch in the also true. The more things advance, the more DTV transition. I think it will probably be ab- quickly we will be able to find ways to transmit sorbed without any great difficulty. multiple streams of HD, which are currently possi- ble for maybe two or three, if they are film-based, RICHARD WILEY: Peter did you want to add for example, in a single channel and alternatively, something? five, six or seven [standard definitions channels]. That is going to match up quite soon with the PETER FANNON: If I could make a comment. I ability in the home to distribute high definition agree with Mike. Just to put a number under- quality, not just one signal around the house, neath it, in the first five years since '98, since Au- wirelessly or wired, but as many as eight or ten of gust of '98, when the transition effectively was offi- HD quality simultaneously. cially launched with the first HD set from Panasonic. And, the first set top, from Panasonic. RICHARD WILEY: So you are saying compres- And, the first switchable HDcamera, from COMMLAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12

Panasonic. But anyway, just under ten million wall-without set top boxes, just as we do in the units of DTV equipment were sold. That is, dis- analog world. Most recently, there has been the plays capable of displaying better than conven- "Broadcast Flag" ruling, to insure that broadcast- tional TV, all the way up to HD or set tops in some ing programming over the air, in the clear so to combination. The estimate from the industry is speak, isn't "Napsterized"-and put on the In- that this year alone, nearly six million additional ternet for wide distribution. Despite all those units will be sold. So we are definitely at that tip- wonderful steps forward, there is at least one key ping point, or curve in the hockey stick, whatever matter that remains undecided-"digital must you want to call it. And I think, as Mike implies, carry." In the analog world, the Supreme Court an awful lot of things have come together, as the has said that cable has to must carry local broad- others have also said, to make this a giant leap for- cast signals up to certain capacity limitations. But ward year for DTV. with digital, there is no such finding so far. So when can we expect a decision? RICHARD WILEY: Okay. RICK CHESSEN: Ah yes, the timing question MICHAEL GODWIN: Dick, there is one other .... Just to give you a little context here. The thing I want to add, and that is that the . . . you Commission did make a comprehensive cut at talk about compression, and it is really important "digital must carry" a couple years ago, in early to remember this. Right now we have a standard 2001. The Commission adopted a must carry item that accommodates both interlaced and progres- that addressed a plethora of issues that are at sive broadcast. I think that as compression im- stake here. Everyone of those issues was the sub- proves and we try to find more ways to squeeze ject of a petition for reconsideration, which is now more content into the pipe, you are going to see what is pending before us. There was a hope that an increasing shift towards a progressive signal, the industries themselves could get together and because it is relatively difficult as a technical mat- narrow the issues if not decide the issues and ter, it is comparatively difficult to compress inter- come together with a solution. That apparently is laced, however. not going to happen, so the Commission is now prepared to move forward on our own, and make RICHARD WILEY: Through the scanning lines, some decisions that maybe people aren't going to as the audience may know, the television picture like. But it is up to us to make them. is delivered, and, worldwide, the format has always been interlaced. Because of the possibilities of RICHARD WILEY: Without telling us, what spe- having interaction with computers, we also cifically is going to happen-which you can't, I wanted to have progressive scanning. Because a know-can you lay out what are the key issues, the digital set can receive both interlaced and scan- key problems that you have to solve to make this ning formats, the format really is invisible to the kind of decision? public. Rick Chessen, the last year has really been, I think, a watershed year at the FCC. Chair- RICK CHESSEN: Sure. There is sort of two man Powell, a year or two ago, came out with a clumps of issues. One is transitional carriage is- plan to move the transition along. Since that sues, and the other one is digital carriage issues. time, Rick's task force has been sending up to the At the end of the day ... There will be "digital Commission a whole bunch of different recom- must carry," and the question is, at the end of the mendations that the agency has acted on, to its day, what will that look like? The transitional is- credit. We have seen the DTV Tuner Mandate. sue is . . . During the transition, until they get We are still selling twenty-five million analog sets a back one of their channels, is there some require- year-they are going to be around for a long ments of the cable systems to carry both of these time. So the Commission's idea was to put a DTV signals that the broadcasters are currently putting tuner in all larger sets, so that they would be digi- out, both the analog and the digital. So, the most tal from the get-go. That has been decided. A extreme version of that would be immediate car- second major decision was "Plug and Play," the riage of both. And, that is called dual carriage. A idea of having integrated sets, so consumers can couple of years ago, the Commission tentatively buy sets, take them home and plug them into the found that, it was unconstitutional under the First 20041 Digital Broadcast Symposium

Amendment. And what makes this whole area the broadcasting industry on the constitutional very complicated is that you are operating on all perspective. And then you've got policy argu- these different levels. The statutory level, where ments about whether broadcasters should have six there is a statute we have to deal with. The consti- streams carried when there are other cable net- tutional level, which the Supreme Court ad- works out there who are looking for carriage, or dressed in Turner, and there are policy issues. Be- whether there should be a marketplace ... negoti- yond the immediate dual carriage, there is lots of ations for carriage of those additional streams. potential phasings over the transition that people The broadcasters say cable still has the ability or have come up with-about when cable operations incentive to discriminate against us, for the same have to start carrying a digital signal, which system reason we needed "must carry," we need them to should have to carry it, etc. The other clump is carry all of our signals because it is not a fair nego- the digital only issues, and that, I think comes tiation. down to the question: In the digital world which bits are going to be required to be carried by the RICHARD WILEY: That is a good layout. Mike, cable system? It is more complicated because in wouldn't an FCC requirement for cable carriage analog we have one video screen, and you carry it. of the entire six Megahertz channel encourage In digital, you got, can you strip out some bits if broadcasters to experiment with multi-casting and you can't tell the difference in the picture quality? data-casting? Or is that degrading the picture? It is technically possible, but should they be able to do that? Pro- MICHAEL GODWIN: I think that it would. But I gram related ... Interactive data that they want to think that the constitutional hurdle is a pretty stiff send along to purchase bits, you know, click here, one to leap. I was a constitutional lawyer before I is that going to be required to be sent? So, we got into this television stuff, and I think that the have all these different permutations in the digital must carry problem is a particularly difficult prob- world that we didn't have in the analog world, lem. As a pure policy question, I think, sure, if that really, each have to be analyzed on all those your goal is to continue encouraging people to different levels. And that is what makes it so com- use the broadcast system in a maximum possible plicated. way. Of course you want to maximize the audi- ence even for non-commercial television. There RICHARD WILEY: And, is it possible that cable are countless reasons to do that. That is an argu- would have to carry, let's say all the multi-cast pro- ment for must carry of multi-casting. You know, grams, thatJohn Lawson's stations might put on? one of the things that Rick was careful not to indi- cate was how this was going to come out, and I RICK CHESSEN: Multi-casting is one of those is- think that the reason the Commission has been a sues that has come up. There is a statutory re- little bit slow, deciding how it is going to handle quirement that the cable operator carry the pri- this ultimately, has been for the constitutional mary video of the broadcast channel. And two problems perhaps attached to all of this. years ago, the Commission found that primary meant one stream. It did not mean multi-cast. If RICHARD WILEY: John, do you think in making you carry six streams, you only had to carry the that decision, that the Commission might want to primary one. And primary meant a single one. distinguish between commercial and non-com- Since then, the broadcasters, including APTS, mercial stations on this whole multi-casting issue? have come in and argued strenuously that some- times primary can mean more than one, or it is JOHN LAWSON: Well let me introduce Andrew more ambiguous than the Commission found Cutler, our Associate General Counsel, who is before, and so therefore, you should pass the stat- much more qualified to speak to this issue than I utory hurdle, which drops you into the constitu- am. Let me say, that we have long advocated that tional bucket. We have had lots of fights about the Commission carry all of the digital signals of whether multi-cast "must carry" six streams from all of the broadcasters. We still advocate that. It each broadcaster would be constitutional under is the only way that the digital transition is going the First Amendment. We have had filings from to get done in anybody's lifetime. On the other Professor Tribe, at Harvard, and responses from hand, we have made the case, repeatedly, to COMMLAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12

Michael Powell, and the other Commissioners, besides "must carry." We have coming up our de- the staff, to the Hill, if that January 2001 decision cision in our second periodic review of all of our on primary video, which was made before Michael digital television rules, which is a sort of soup to Powell's chairmanship. nuts review of all of the rules in place. The big rules there that are being decided-is when do RICHARD WILEY: Primary video, one program? broadcasters have to go to full power or lose inter- ference protection. The Commission had a policy JOHN LAWSON: Right. If cable only has to in place where some broadcasters in smaller mar- carry one of these programming streams that we kets could come on the air at lower power, and put out, it will be fatal to public television. If you then increase as transition continues. This is want public television to go away, then leave that when we are going to set that deadline. Also, in ruling alone. By that I mean, we have raised a bil- that rulemaking, there is something called the lion dollars for this digital transition. Half of it simulcast rule, which basically requires broadcast- came from state legislatures. That money was ers to, on an increasing basis, provide the same raised on the basis for explicit plans for multi-cast content on their digital stream as they do on their channels. If at the end of the day, we have these analog stream. The idea is that eventually if you Taj Mahal digital facilities, built at great cost- want to turn off that analog stream, people better and all of these promises we have made to these be able to find that same content on their digital legislatures, to the public, to Congress, to deliver stream as they have on analog. Some people have these new services are negated, because we can't said this is a hamper to innovation. Some people, raise the content money. We can't raise the like Mark Cuban, who has an HDTV channel, and money for the content, because seventy percent of would like to provide it to broadcast stations, is the audience is not going to be able to see these saying that he can't sign up broadcasters because services. Who would invest in that? So we say, tell they are afraid they are not going to be able to us what is primary, and tell us what is secondary. meet the current simulcast requirement, because Are our kids secondary? K12 education secon- his high definition content is just going to be on dary? Public Affairs? So, we have said that this is the digital channel. So some people are asking us not only a life and death situation for us, but we to do away with that requirement. We've got a believe that there is a statutory basis for what we proceeding going on out there, everything we call PTV now. If these issues for the commercial have been talking about so far only has to do with values are going to take some more time, we full power broadcasters. There are thousands and would like the Commission to make the decision thousands of low power television stations out now. There is a lot of legal arguments you can there and television translators, which basically make, but it really boils down to this-the NAB take the whole power signal and transmit it to re- and MSTV, right before Thanksgiving, filed their mote locations. Especially out in the western own digital transition carriage plan, and a lot of it mountainous areas, this is a lot of times how peo- was based on re-transmission consent. They can ple actually get their TV service. None of what we withhold their signals from cable. We don't have are talking about, none of the rules applied so far, that. Cable has compulsory copyright to anything have anything to do with those stations. How do we put out. We can't withhold that signal. But those stations transition into digital? How do they what we got in return for that was guarantee do it technically? How do we find a spectrum? "must carry," and we are saying, to the Commis- What rules will they have to abide by? That is a sion, you have to honor the spirit of the law, and big proceeding that is going on. We also have, go ahead and make the decision to make sure Dick mentioned Plug-in-Play, so far, what we have that we are carried. on the books, is a one-way Plug-in-Play world, where you can actually plug in your cable and get RICHARD WILEY: Rick, very quickly, can you one way digital programming. We all want to get tick off, beyond "must carry," what other transi- to the world where you plug in your cable and ac- tion issues remain to be determined by the Com- tually get interactive cable programming, which mission? the current rules don't cover. Negotiations are starting between the Cable TV industries and RICK CHESSEN: Sure we have lots on our plate 20041 Digital Broadcast Symposium others on a two-way agreement and that is some- impulse on part of the content companies to thing we are going to be following very closely. struggle over this. To try to put up sort of a Chi- And the final thing I mention, I guess, is in the nese wall between content delivery and what peo- broadcast flag, and in Plug-in-Play to some extent, ple can do with it when they get it, and that is we have set the rules in place, but the particular actually slowing the transition. content protection technologies are not yet ap- proved. People are going to be coming to the RICHARD WILEY: Peter, would the end of the Commission and making applications to use their transition be expedited if there were the availabil- particular technologies with the broadcast flag sys- ity to the public of low cost boxes that could con- tem, and that is something that the Commission vert digital signals back to analog? That may seem ... hopefully we are going to get lots and lots of a little anomalous. But if we think of those mil- applications from different technologies compet- lions and millions of analog sets that we don't ing. And, that is something that is going to take a want to throw away; and if there were boxes that bit of our time. we could buy for under $100, let's say, that could convert digital signals back to analog and allow us RICHARD WILEY: Now 2006 was initially to still use our analog sets, would that help? planned as the end of this transition. The about, and others, may problems we have talked PETER FANNON: Sure, that is part of it, but see- have slowed down that date. But now we are frankly it is not the magic bullet in my personal ing real progress in the DTV marketplace. Mike, view. It might be sort of the last mortar that goes could 2006 still be a possible date to end the tran- in when you are finishing up the building. Ulti- sition and get back that valuable spectrum? mately for example ... MICHAEL GODWIN: Well, I think the short an- swer is that everybody knows 2006 is not the date. RICHARD WILEY: You mean the last ten percent We haven't gotten anything like the adoption in or so? the various broadcast markets of HD technology to support that transition. I think one of the PETER FANNON: Well, the last very modest per- things that, speaking on behalf of both technolo- cent of the population. It is also true that, of gists and consumers that I have been interested course, you are not going to throw all those sets in, is to see the extent to which that transition can out until there is no off-air use or no other ser- be advanced by the increasing role of information vices [such as VHS or video games going] into technology companies in providing HD plat- those existing sets-even though you will need forms. I think that we have seen in the last couple some particular device for getting the new DTV of years, we have seen everyone from Gateway and signals into that old set. If it is off air it will be Dell to Microsoft, really begin to experiment with some set top, like it is for cable or satellite already. ways to deliver digital television. I think one of Practically speaking though, there is an example the things that we have also seen, in an ongoing in Berlin, which last Fall did flip the switch after a way, has been a tension between the content com- couple years of thinking [and several months of] panies and information technology platforms; this preparation. A so-called "hard switch," and at that actually filters back to the bi-directional rulemak- stage the Berlin government, backed by a teeny ing which I think that we are going to see the stuff bit by the federal government in Germany de- surface yet once again.., too many of the content cided to subsidize the folks who couldn't afford it, companies, computers are WMD-they are weap- not the hold-outs or those who literally didn't ons of mass distribution. So they are very reluc- know about it until the night before. When all is tant to let computers be part of the playing field said in done, however, don't confuse German off- here, and that is actually slowing down the transi- air television with American. In Berlin, ninety-two tion, only because the computer industry, even percent of the population didn't have off-air; they more than the CD industry, has been driving new don't rely on off-air in Germany. They rely much display technologies. They have been giving you more in France, for example, but it is much less more bits and more ways to do things with bits. It than fifty percent in almost every other western is very, very exciting but I think that there is an European country, and falling fast, similarly, in COMMLAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12 eastern and central-Europe. There are certain is- both a goal and strategy. The goal is that we sues that we can look at and study in fact... would save $36 million a year in just electricity costs through just running these analog transmit- RICK CHESSEN: They don't do high definition ters. I was in Allentown, Pennsylvania. They had programming, which obviously makes it easier... ninety-three percent cable penetration. At what point does it become cheaper to just give every- RICHARD WILEY: No high definition in Eu- body over the air a box and you save enough rope? money to pay for them by turning off analog? PETER FANNON: Exactly. So it is a piece of the RICHARD WILEY: And would you do it, or puzzle. I think what is important is the magic of would the government do it? digital makes lots of things possible. In that same sense, let me come back to that notion of "must JOHN LAWSON: Under that equation, we could carry." Not specifically to the issue of what is give it. But the other part of our plan, the strategy carry, but if you bought a television set and it cur- part is that we have to have cable carriage, we rently works today doing X, Y and Z, and that is have to have some accommodation with digital why you bought it, if the Commission's action on satellite. We also believe that if we could guaran- "must carry" limits it to doing X and cuts off Y and tee the government that we would give back the Z, like it did when picture in picture was cut off analog television spectrum we control, twenty-two with the original cable ready standards in the ana- percent of the total, this is beachfront property, log world when you put a set top box on it, then we might be able to keep some of it, frankly, and you are in big trouble. Then you have a giant create a trust fund-something we have wanted consumer backlash. In effect, this isn't just a since LBJ was in the White House. Even though "must carry" and government issue, it is actually we would say, let's keep the proceeds, and also, by an all-industry issue-you have in effect a back- the way, subsidize set top boxes for poor people, lash against just what you are trying to promote. the ripple effect to the economy and for the gov- The government asks everybody to buy in early ernment in terms of tax receipts of freeing up all and soon, and that is why copy protection cannot this spectrum and putting them to the new uses cut off not only the early adopters but any people that are being discussed this morning, I think who have product today. You can't stop people would be enormous. Under that scenario, if we from using what they purchased in a way that they accept that this transition really is industrial pol- expected the property to work. So, whatever hap- icy-which is a dirty word to some-if the govern- pens in that particular arena on "must carry," con- ment and broadcasters and we get in this thing sumer manufacturers, computer companies, together, I think that we could turn off some mar- others who want to hook up to cable and every- kets by the end of 2006. thing else with their products, want to be sure that what they design into the products goes on work- RICHARD WILEY: Mike, I want to give you a ing. And, that is just another layer of complexity, chance to comment. The deal was always that which obviously Rick couldn't get into all of the broadcasters got the second channel as a tempo- details of it, but it is a truly difficult issue. It is a rary loan that very valuable spectrum was being major consumer issue. used for analog television which we wanted to get it back to the public; then auction it off for other RICHARD WILEY: John, did you want to com- uses and get the money to the government. How ment on that? would you feel about John's plan, particularly if it were extended to commercial broadcasting? JOHN LAWSON: Yes, our Board, the Board of the Association of Public Television Stations, di- MICHAEL GODWIN: Well, I think .. .I am to- rected us in the fall, to develop a plan, under tally against people getting to keep the channels. which our stations could embrace a hard date to I think that a deal is a deal. We loan you those turn off analog broadcasting. We are impressed channels to do the transition and when the transi- by what happened in Berlin. We are impressed tion is over, you have to give them back. with the galloping success of the digital preview service in the UK- For us, turning off analog is RICHARD WILEY: Why am I not surprised. 2004] Digital Broadcast Symposium

MICHAEL GODWIN: You know... I don't know RICK CHESSEN: No, I think that what the FCC ...A deal is a deal. This is playground law. I has done is going to help quite a bit to insure that mean it is a thing that you know when you are the content continues to flow. I heard what Mike standing behind home base. The thing that I said about recognizing the different nature of think that you have touched on, that Peter has broadcasting, and I think that our rules, in fact, touched on that adds a level of complexity, is the do that. With broadcast flag and the Plug-in-Play content protection stuff. It is taken widely as a context, we insure that consumers can make as given, by a lot of policy makers, that digital televi- many copies of broadcast content as they want to sion is more subject to piracy than analog televi- within their homes. There is absolutely no restric- sion is. That, as a technical matter, is simply false. tion on making copies of broadcast content. In fact, the converse is true. Analog television is Hopefully, we will even have ways of using the In- more subject to piracy than digital television, in- ternet to distribute what they use to send copies of cluding piracy over the Internet. Because you can broadcast content to their beach house, to their re-digitize analog content. So, to the extent that office, whatever, if you can come up with those you are number one, perhaps concerned about technologies. The only thing that we want to content protection, and number two concerned guard against is the mass redistribution over the about promoting the transition, it seems to me Internet, piracy so to speak-the same thing that that the things that allow these goals to converge happened to the music industry-to happen in is to push for cutting off analog broadcasting on a the video industry. That is all our rules are de- sooner date, and lets move to HD broadcast, lets signed to protect against-not these kind of regu- move to a lot of digital broadcast, which are big- lar uses that consumers expect to make of the ger, they are harder, they need to be compressed broadcast content. So, I think that it is the line we before they can be moved around on the In- are trying to draw. ternet, they are not more subject to piracy than analog television, and you remove a level of tech- RICHARD WILEY: Peter, do you want to com- nical complexity, which is actually mucking up a ment on that? whole dimension of the Plug-in-Play process, and top to bottom-the certainly infected-from PETER FANNON: Consumer electronics manu- broadcasting flag process. And Rick knows I have facturers, of course, often feel themselves caught the Commission has been a strong critic of where in the middle. This month is the twentieth anni- gone with that. Free over-the-air means free over- versary of the Supreme Court's Betamax decision. broadcasters to the-air. We gave the spectrum to A decision that says, in so many words, that if a ways to make money, do things with it, to find product has legal uses, it can be sold, even if it has has to do with con- they can do that. Not all of it other uses that are deemed inappropriate. That electronics peo- trolling what kinds of consumer decision has been coming under stronger and have. The fact that people copy programs or ple stronger attack, all under the guise, dare I say- their PVRs ought to be share them or put them in and Mike please jump in, you are the attorney, something that broadcasters see as an opportu- not I, but given the so called difference of the dig- nity, and not as a problem, and the same thing ital world where in fact the notion is still correct. goes with the content companies. That is going to You should go after the criminals, you should not take a revolution in how you think about broad- go after the device. Nevertheless, the vast major- casting that I think hasn't happened yet. I think ity with very few exceptions-one big company is that is unfortunate to see the process with Plug-in- a single outstanding exception-but the CE [con- Play, with the digital transition slowed down, be- sumer electronics] manufacturing community cause of what I think are misconceived concerns agrees that the idea of the broadcast flag is a plus, about content protection. it's sole purpose being to limit redistribution over the Internet, unauthorized redistribution. RICHARD WILEY: Rick, is that right? Do you [Panasonic], along with a handful of others, has think the lack of an all-industry agreement here, over the last eight or ten years tried to step into for copy protection rules, is slowing the transi- the mix, at considerable risk obviously to our tion? products reputation, in order to find solutions COMMLAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12 that would reasonably protect and certainly re- What we are doing is closing that off. We are try- spect copyright owners' interests. Because it ulti- ing to lock down technology to basically a 1986 mately is true that if everything is digitally inter- standard, or 1990 standard, and I think that is a connected then it is easy for so-called leakage, if terrible, terrible mistake. Especially when the you are a content person, to become a significant case has not been made that the digital content is problem. In the process, I think the FCC took a more prone to piracy. great step when they adopted Plug-and-Play and included the so-called encoding rules. For the RICHARD WILEY: But in fairness now, if you are first time, you have the FCC accepting responsibil- a creative individual, you develop a program, and ity and the government blessing such rules and we it goes over the Internet, don't you lose the value hope that Congress will ultimately come back and of your creation? reconfirm this. [The encoding rules mean that] everybody knows what happens with a given kind MICHAEL GODWIN: In fact you may not, be- of content. There are no surprises, nobody is cause one of the things that happens, for exam- able, after the fact, to switch off the DVD re- ple, let's take a show like Joan of Arcadia, a new corder, although because, they didn't like what we show on CBS, which has developed a cult follow- were going to do with certain content. Even more ing and recently won some awards. A lot of peo- importantly, as the others have said, the two ways ple came to that show late. They may have said, "I to stop it, really gets technically complex, but ulti- want to see what this show's arc is like," they mately, the goal that everybody is going for is the downloaded extra episodes, and suddenly they be- ability to exploit the full underlying value of the come regular broadcast television watchers. The digital revolution. That is going to require rea- economics of these consumption patterns are not sonable protections, reasonably implemented, simple and they are certainly not as simple as the with government [enforcement] backing. content companies would have you believe. If you ask a Disney, Fox or CBS for that matter, they will RICHARD WILEY: Mike, I know you want to re- tell you that every copied program is somehow a spond. loss sale, or chipping away at the revenue. I think the economics of watching television are far dif- MICHAEL GODWIN: Yes, very briefly. The rea- ferent from that. Audiences develop over time. son we have the encoding rules, the reason the People who can use their VCRs to record strip syn- Commission has laid out a landscape of how many dication television shows, never the less buy the times you can copy certain kinds of programming, packaged DVDs and they are often very high whether it is limitless copying, or some kinds of priced. This is a very exciting, developing market limits on the copying. It is all because of Sony and I hate to see it shut up because of fears-sort and the VCR. Twenty years ago, which the con- of irrational fears-of digital content over the In- tent companies believed was flatly illegal, they ternet. flatly opposed and tried to shut down the VCR in- dustry, and the whole time-shifting phenomena, RICHARD WILEY: Rick, I want to give you the as well as shutting down the ability of people to last word on that. archive television shows, and certainly to share tel- evision shows with each other. The very under- RICK CHESSEN: Well, I think that this shows standing that we have about what you can do with that balance that we have had to strike here, be- television when you record it was built on some- tween Mike, who probably would want no restric- thing that was believed to be illegal twenty years tions at all, no restrictions on any ability to ship ago by the content companies. Now, they are say- anything around the Internet. Content commu- ing the broadcast television that we record has to nity of course has their own legitimate concerns be restricted in certain ways, has to be restricted about protecting their content and their particu- according to understandings that we have devel- lar distribution and syndication and release win- oped over the past twenty years. But what about dows, and finding that right balance is difficult. future uses, like the VCR and the videotape after The FCC tries to do this with consumers in mind. market, ultimately generated immense profits and immense streams of revenue for content makers? RICHARD WILEY: I have a lot more questions 2004] Digital Broadcast Symposium here that I want to explore if we get a chance. But ers, that are mandated, actually work? Is that I want to give the audience an opportunity to ask what you are saying? Yes. The question is the questions that you might be interested in. whether the marketplace is best at insuring that or whether the government setting rules is best QUESTION: Do you think that the Commission, for that, and as I said, we have been through this a in the next evolution of the digital transition, will couple of times, and we think that the market- start to address the quality of the digital televi- place is making advances. There is this best prac- sions and set top box receivers, so that you could tices thing going on, that could bear fruit. So, it is actually have a viable over-the-air broadcast televi- something that we are watching closely. sion receivers that could provide people with a stripped down basic, low-cost alternative to cable RICHARD WILEY: Other questions? and satellite delivery? QUESTION: You talked about how the computer RICK CHESSEN: Well, that is something that we industry and the TV industry were coming to- have been following closely. Our preference is gether here. Obviously, there are some good generally to let the marketplace in these situations sides to that since the computer industry is very operate as long as things are moving in the direc- dynamic, they make the coolest things. But I tion that they seem to be moving in. We have guess the down side to that is that the television looked at this a couple times, and in each case the set is a very simple device and not very complex. Commission has found that the advances in tech- Personally, I do not want to buy a new television nology were appropriate and reception capability set every two years to take advantage of new tech- was making advances quickly enough that the nologies with new software, cable boxes, etc. How FCC didn't need to get involved with regulating do you see that playing out in terms of consumer and setting standards. One interesting thing that resistance to that? Will there be bifurcated mar- is going on now with the ATSC is that there is a kets in each zone.., and secondly, when should I subcommittee amongst the consumer electronics buy my next TV? (Laughter). industry and the broadcast industry that is looking at adopting a set of best practices for television RICHARD WILEY: Those are excellent ques- receivers. To try to set some sort of industry floor. tions. Peter? I think that they are pretty far along, and from what I hear they are making good progress PETER FANNON: Second question first. Today. amongst the industries, which of course can do a (laughter) With regard to the second question on much better job amongst themselves like in the televisions, not just my company, but others Plug-in-Play, and if there is something the Com- stopped making analog large screen sets years mission needs to do, they could bring it to us. But ago. We stopped in 2000. We don't make any. In I am not sure they will, and they may come up other words, everything we sell in the large screen with some best practices that will address this is- format, which is thirty-two or something inches sue. But it is something that obviously is a big and above, in our case, is wide screen and capable concern is the reception capability, and some- of display at least twice as good as conventional, thing we are watching closely and if we needed to meaning minimum 480 progressive scan, and usu- get involved, we probably would. ally it has HD capability. And the prices on those are not $10,000-15,000, as the high end guys were FOLLOW UP QUESTION: If the Commission selling analog-only versions just five years ago. felt that it was necessary for the digital transition, You can get a thirty-six inch Zenith HD capable to require that digital televisions have a tuner direct view set for $800, you can get a 53 inch rear built in, because the marketplace is otherwise not screen Panasonic HD projection TV for $1100. developed in that way, isn't it just as important These are HD capable with tuners. By the way, in that those tuners be able to actually receive all six our case, with one-way cable-capability, cable card, to twelve broadcasting stations if the tuner is oper- and the new CableCARD, we are the only ones ated in an apartment building in DC? with those at the moment. But when all is said and done the price curves crossed two years ago, RICK CHESSEN: Is it important that the receiv- and the practicality is that if you go into the stores COMMLAW CONSPECTUS [Vol. 12

now, you will be truly surprised, I think, at what think that these are not easy concepts to explain you can buy in terms of quality and choice. There to anybody... are over 600 DTV products, and it is only in the last year that those computer makers that you al- RICHARD WILEY: Even to this audience ... luded to earlier have been cloning them from the CD industry, which was, in fact, the center of in- RICK CHESSEN: To this audience! Especially novation for displays. The first question I think is this audience. No. There is LCD, DLP . . . in sort of a broader set of issues, and I don't want to some ways these are good because these are con- hog the time . . . Yes televisions are getting sumer choices that people can make. On the smarter, and goodness knows many computers other hand, I am sure when people walk into the are smarter still. But I think that both industries store they are confronted. They used to say what believe that they have hit a complexity plateau. size screen do you want, and that was pretty much And that is part of the reason why you are seeing what you would get. And now, you gotta make a an emphasis, like it was at last week's consumer lot of decisions in there, and do research. So it is electronic show, on simplicity, transparency, ease a lot like other things in the digital world; cell of use. One button, two steps max. That was the phones are a lot more difficult than they once keynote that my company delivered at the Con- were to figure out what you want. TV's are going sumer Electronic Show. Happy to send you a disc, in that direction too, but I think that people are if you want to see it. But when all is said and starting to figure out how to sell these things as done, it has got to be simple and straight forward they are starting to take off and as they get more for average typical television use. It can be as experience with them. I've noticed a real im- complex as some application might demand in provement over that last couple of years at retail. the computer world, but to the extent that two in- Both in displaying and explaining what consum- dustries are converging, I would say that the com- ers are getting. puting industry is looking more and more towards video and visual stimuli, iconography, easy use, RICHARD WILEY: John and Mike, I know you less clicks. And the television industry, or the typi- both have a quick comment and then we are go- cal consumer electronics company is looking to- ing to be winding up here. ward ease of use with the same and growing func- tionalities, and the two are, in fact, coming to- JOHN LAWSON: To the question... Buy it now. gether in terms of smarts. The great news is, of I tell you, I have had HD for four years, there is a course, that memory and the cost of processing- Complexity all the infrastructure that makes those device lot of programming, I can't go back. smarts work-are coming down rapidly in price; it is an issue, I have five remotes on my coffee table, all continues in the two famous curves that make but my four year old twins know how to operate at I that possible, and when all is said in done, when least three of them, so we are making progress. have to depend on you see the prices in the store today, they are not do think that we are going to cable and satellite for a long time, but I do think only affordable, but you get a heck of a lot more is an opportunity to bring back over the value for your money than you did for the same that there air television. The UK, we are learning more and money just five years ago. more about their success there. There are differ- ences, of course. But there are two generations RICHARD WILEY: Rick, just a quick follow up that have grown up with a wire, and if you repack- on that. One part of the plan is to make sure that age it and re-launch it-wireless television, free the public knows the options. Do you think that wireless television, who knows, maybe the broad- retailers are really doing their job in explaining casters will give back just a couple of points of what the difference between digital and high defi- market share over a few years. nition-and what is available? MICHAEL GODWIN: I think you should buy RICK CHESSEN: Yes. I think that they are doing now, and the reason you should is because the a betterjob, but obviously there is still a little ways copy protection has not been implemented yet. to go. I think that these are hard concepts. I (laughter) In fact, what I do when I go to Best 2004] Digital Broadcast Symposium

Buy, I turn around the TV and I see what outlets going to ask the final question for everyone. are there, and I try to get the biggest number of What year will the DTV transition end? Peter? outputs. I favor the ones with the biggest number of outputs, especially analog outputs, because not PETER FANNON: The broadcast DTV transi- only now, but for some time to come, analog out- tion. It is not 2006, but it is not inconceivable that puts won't be protected. So even after broadcast it is 201.1 or 2012. is implemented, if you get an HD set today, or flag RICHARD WILEY: John? even a year from now, if you get a set that has component analog outputs, you can capture an JOHN LAWSON: Well, to implement the plan we exceedingly high quality signal, you can digitize it were developing, I think that it is conceivable that and put it on the Internet, if you want to. I am we really have to go after it on the receiver side, not encouraging you to do that, I am just telling and if the broadcast industry, frankly looked at re- you that you can. It would be wrong. packaging over the air television, we could con- ceivably turn off analog, in some markets, in 2008, RICK CHESSEN: It would be wrong. but there has to be a morality provision, and the MICHAEL GODWIN: But you should buy now whole country I think that it would be sometime before these consumer electronics are encum- after 2010. bered with a protection scheme that are going to RICHARD WILEY: Mike? make a lot of devices incompatible with one an- other. I think that everyone acknowledges that MICHAEL GODWIN: Assuming that broadcast- there is an immense lurking compatibility issue ing survives the digital television transition, it may with the competing protection schemes for both be 2020. broadcast television and cable television, that I think will ultimately cause confusion in the mar- RICHARD WILEY: Okay, Rick. I am going to give ketplace. I think that this is going to turn into you the final word on this overall, then you don't something, if not disastrous, at least very compli- have to name the date. cating for people who want to make the HD tran- sition, or the DTV transition for themselves. Now RICK CHESSEN: I think that it will be over when is a good time to buy a television set. The price it is over. (laughter) points have fallen and the protection schemes RICHARD WILEY: Ladies and Gentleman, I aren't in yet. think that this has been an outstanding panel, we RICHARD WILEY: Dean Fox asked me to get the missed Susan, but let's thank the folks who re- overall symposium back on the time schedule, mained. even though we started quite late. So I am just