University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP
Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History
11-18-1975
Interview no. 212
Charles V. Porras
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Recommended Citation Interview with Charles V. Porras by Oscar J. Martinez, 1975, "Interview no. 212," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.
This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UNIVERSITYOFTEXAS AT EL PASO INSTITUTEOFORAL HISTORY
I NTERVI E'''lEE : CharlesV. Porras (1901- )
I}ITERVIEbIER: 0scarJ. Martfnez
PROJECT: Ricentpnnial .|8, .|975 DATEOF II\TERVIEI,J:November TERI4SOF USE: Unrestricted
TAPENO.: ?12 TRANSCRIPTIIO.: 212
TRAIISCRIBIR: RhondaHartman ,|8, DATETRANSCRIBED: March 1976
BIOGRAPHICALSYNOPSIS OFINTERVIEI{EE: LongtimeE1 Pasoresident.
SUi.ii'IARYOF II.ITERVIEN: Biography;shooting at Zeiger'sSaloon in early E1 Paso;experiences at Beall Elementaryand El PasoHigh schools; Anglo/Mexican relations; experiencesin the Navy;Young Men's Democratic Club; LULAC;Marcos B. Armijo Post; civil rights work; workwith the FederalEmergency Relief Administration;Ciudad Judrez during Prohibition; the MexicanRevolu- tion; the word"Chicano"; zoot-suit riots in LosAngeles; political campaignof Rep.Edward Roybal of California; attitudes towardthe ChicanoMovement.
2 hours. 38 pages. CHARLESV. PORRAS
M: This interviewis beingconducted at the homeof Mr. CharlesV. Porras,
9048Geranium Street, El Paso,Texas. NovemberlB, 1975. Interviewing is OscarMarti'nez from U. T. EI Paso. First, Mr. Pomas,can you tell mewhen and where you were born? .|3, .|90]. P: El Paso,Texas, July
M: Couldyou tell mea little bit aboutyour parents'background?
P: Myfather wasJacinto Pomas. He camehere whenhe wasthree years o1d from SanAntonion Texas. His father usedto drive a packtrain from SanAntonio to SantaFe, NewMexico. 0n the last trip that he made,he
waskilled at AntonChicoo New Mexico. His motherand his sister were stayingat SanEJizario with Mrs. Ellis at the old Ellis Storeand Mill
there. tttyfather cameto El Pasoon the first train that camethrough SanEl izario.
M: Thatwas in lBBl?
P: I don't recall the date, but he wasjust a youngboy. Hecame to El Paso
and he settled here aroundwhat is DurangoStreet today. That wasthe nameof the district--Durango;right by the old SantaFe depotwhich js about 2 blocks from the Uniondepot today. I wasborn at the corner of West0verland and LeonStreet. Myfather hada grocerystore there. M: Did your father ever talk abouthis experienceswhen he first cameto El Paso?
P: 0h yes, Ves. Hewas quite free with his talk abouthis experienceshere. Hewas in the drayage businessand also in the grocerybusiness, so he camein contact with everybodythat wasin bus'inessand a lot of the PORRAS
old-timepoliticians andthe pub'lic-spiritedmen around town.
M: Whatare someof the things that you rememberyour father talking about
of those early days?
P; [He usedto talk about] the old shootingscrapes that they usedto have on the streets. In fact, he recal'ledvery vividly a shootingscrape that
they had on the corner of 0regonand Texas Street, it is now. There
usedto be an old bar there. I think it wasthe Zieger Bar. Theowner
of the bar wasa memberof the old DocHolliday andWyatt Earp igroup]. DocHolliday and somebodyelse shot'it out or had a scrapewith the bar- tender at that particular bar. Theyshot it out in the street. My father at that time wascoming from the SheldonHotel; he waspicking up somebaggage on one of his transfer wagons,and he witnessedthat. He witnessedseveral, but that is the onethat stoodout morevividly in
his mind.
M: Did your father tal k aboutthe relations betweenMexicans and Anglos
during thosedays?
Verydefinitely. Whatdid he say? Myfather v'rasone man that believedthat regardlessof nationality, you
werea man. If you werean honestand goodman, it madeno difference
to him [whatyour nationality was]. Hedidn't cowtowto the so-called "white superiority" here. But in thosedays, there werevery few of our people,unfortunate'ly, that had the gumptionto stand up for what they thoughtwas right. In other words,they gaveway to the old tejano sty'le of treating the paisanoshere. Thepaisano was looked up- on as just a coupleof degreesabove the Negro. Myfather had lots of argumentsabout that; my father wasvery outspoken. He also be-
camea joiner in the existing fraternal ordersand clubs that existed PORRAS
at that time, trying to get our peopleto be representedas they should
be. He wasa great friend of the Escajedafamily and Montoyas,and the
old political leadersof our people. Hedefinitely v'lasvery muchashamed of the wayour peoplecowered behind...you might say, they acteddumb.
It isnrt that they didn't knowthat they wereentitled thesethings, but they feared for physical hurt from the majority of the so-ca11edAnglos.
Becausein thosedays, shootingdown a Mexicanwas not lookedupon as any serious crime. Myfather wasvery, very muchopposed, naturally, to that; but he also went out and tried to do somethingabout it.
M: Didyour father ever tell you of any specific incidentsthat gavean indication of the relations betweenMexicans and Anglos that he was involvedin?
P. Yes. Oneof the best cafei in El Pasoat that time [was]Zieger's on the corner of Oregonand 0verlandStreet. He and a coupleof his cronies
fromone of thesemutual aid societies--LaProtectora, I think, wasthe
name--hada meetingon SouthStanton and Fifth Street. 0n the wayback to townthey stopped'inat Z'ieger'sto get a bite to eat. Theywere told--
not po1ite1y, but very forceably--to get out. Theywere properly dressed
and they had plenty of money. But the fact was that they were told plainly that Mexicansweren't being served there at that time. That wasZieger's. And, incidental'ly,Zieger was of Germanextraction. The Englishthat he spoke--huh!He couldn't evenspeakr you might say, the English language. But he consideredhimself a better Americanthan our people. Whatdid your father do? tllell, he wasall for tak'inga pokeat...in fact, he did take a pokeat
the waiter who,unfortunate'ly, was also one of our people;but fhe was] PORRAS
doing his job. By that time the other two hauledh'im away. That was a very commonincident.
M: Whatdo you rememberabout your childhoodhere in El Paso?
P: I can rememberfrom the time that I was about 6 years old. My uncle
used to bring medowntown from DurangoStreet to El PasoStreet to get
myhair cut. I'll neverforget [this]. Mycousin was a youngfel'low, maybeabout 5 years older than I at the time. In order to savetime walking,he usedto cut acrossthe railroad track, the railroad yards, wherethe SantaFe freight depot is. That's about7th and SantaFe. Weused to cut off from there over to what is nowCharles Street. He usedto bring meunder the cars there. A lot of times they wereshunting
cars. But that wasny first recollection--comingdown to El PasoStreet to get myhair cut. AndI also rememberselling papersat the corner
of El Pasoand SanFrancisco Street. Thereused to be a Snyder'sMarket
on the corner. There'swhere I met all of the importantpeople'in
thosedays, like Mr. S. J. Fellmanwho was our leadingphotographer,
and Mr. Pitmanwho was an Alderman. "UncleHenry" Ke'l1y was Mayor. Al1 of the other peopleused to comeby and used to buy a paper off of me, simplybecause they liked the waythat I usedto speakEnglish. That wasit. M: Couldyou speakEnglish well?
P: 0h, I spokeEnglish I guesssince I started talking. M: Did you speakSpanish in the homeat all? P: Both. tW father usedto speakboth. M: Wasthat unusual,living whereyou lived? P: Yes,yes; very unusual. That is oneof the reasonswhy our old-timers heredid not speakEnglish well. Their folks persistedin using Spanish andnot usingany English at all unlessthey hadto. You'renot old PORRAS
enoughto remember,but the Eng'lishthat they usedto speakdown there
wasterrible--half Englishand half Spanish--becausethey wereashamed
to talk it. Oneof the commonexpressions, when you spoketo one of
thoseold die-hards[was], "Yo no habloperro, yo habloespafr'ol." That's howbad it wasin certain sections.
M: "Perro"stood for English?
P: Yes, Yes. In fact, whenwe werein grammarschool, we usedto haveto fight. In 1912,when the Revolutionstarted over there andall of those refugeescame over here, we whowere born here and werefluent in the 'language wehad to fight thosekids fromover there--I meanphysically;
becausethey usedto call us "agringados."And we hadto force the languageon them.
M: Therefugee kids called you "agringados"? D. 0h yes.
M. Howdid that makeyou feej ?
P: It mademe feel goodbecause it wasjust an excuseto punchsomeone in
the nose;and naturally I got punched,too. But I got a special kick
out of [it for] this reason: there werea few teachersthat we had in thosedays who did not evenknow anything about Spanish. So, I wasat Beall School,and Miss Praterpicked myself and another friend of mine,
AlexanderBull, as teachersfor thesekids. Someof themwere 17 and 18 years o1d. Theywere wonderfully educated, but they didn't knowany Englishat all. Sowe usedto be the Eng'lishteachers. Andwe took great delight in runningthe roughshodover a lot of them. So I got a bangout of it.
Yousound like you hadsome kjnd of a fiqhting spirit in you. Yes;oh yes. I guessit's the Indianblood in me. i wasquarrelsome. I admitthat--I wasquarrelsome. PORRAS
M: Wheredo you think that camefrom? P: tvlyfather.
M: Howdid your father influenceyou?
P: Myfather wasa very, very strict man;but his principal idea wasthat
as long as I wentto school, I hadeverything that I wanted. In other words,I hadfine clothes, a goodbicycle. WhenI wasl0 years old he
set meup in the grocerybusiness. I meancompletely. Hebujlt mea
building, stockedit, andturned it over to me. I fwould]come back from schooland tend to the store; I wasthe buyer, the bookkeeper,and everythinge1se. That's the kind of manhe was,because he didn't get a chanceto go evento the 3rd grade; but he wantedeach one of us to havea full education. Soas long as I wentto schoolI hadeverything.
WhenI was in high school I had a chargeaccount with the PopularDry GoodsCompany. Itly old friend LeonardGoodman was the BeauBrummel here then. Hewore beautiful clothing. WhenI usedto seeLeonard with a
newsuitn I'd go andget meone to match. Thatwas the kind of father
I had. WorldWar I cameup whenI wasin high school. i threwmy books
in the locker andwalked out of there--I didn't finish school. That
was'it. WhenI cameback, he said, "Al1 right, whenare you goingback to school?" I said, "0h, I'lI start pretty soon." I neverdid! That cut'if off. Myfather wouldn'thelp mein anythilg--hewas that strict. But he wasfajr becausehe told meplainly that he wantedme to go to school. I didn't go, so he cut off all the help. Howmany brothers and sisters did you have? I had three brothers and two sisters. I wasthe oldest one. I oniy havetwo brothersand one sister living today. Therest of themare gone. Whatdo you rememberabout lifein the neighborhoodin whichyou grewup? Well, on DurangoStreet, WestOverland Street, I don't recall that much. PORRAS
Myrecollections start on Bassett. Thatwas a newaddition. Fort
Bliss usedto be on the cornerof it. It usedto start on Willow
Street, from Bassettover to Magoffin;and it usedto go as far as
l,llalnut. Now,that wasan entirely newneighborhood. My father and two or three morecame in andbuilt up the homes. Incidentally, in thosedays, insteadof havingsingle homesto rent, they built tenements. So my father had a bunchof tenementsadjoining our house. Our house was independent,and the other was incomeproperty. Myfather, Mr.
Placencia,Mr. Valenzuela,and Mr. Alvarado--allof these [followed]the samepattern. So we all grewup togetherthere, went to the same
school,enjoyed the samekind of living. Ourfathers wereall middle-
class businessmen,workers; so we hadabout the samelife--the social affairs and everything. If you had a party at this house, everybody in the neighborhoodwent. If there wasa death in the family anywhere, well, the samething. It wasa very close-knit community.It wasn't a large group,but we hadvery nice relations there.
Whatelementary school did you go to?
Beall School. Thefirst schoolthat I wentto--it wasone term--it wasBassett School, right on the cornerof Bassettand Willow. They
finished Beall Schooljust aboutthat time, so wewere the first ones to go there. Whatincidents stick out in your mindof your elementaryschool years?
Well, the onethat standsuppermost in mym'ind [is when]I wasthe "teacher"there, and I usedto punishthe heckout of the older ones.
Thatwas meanness on mypart, I guess. [Also], we hadan outstanding soccerteam. Theyused to haveno Bth grade; high 7th wasthe [1ast grade]. Whenwe graduated,they had to run us awayfrom there, because PORRAS
we didn't want to go. Wehad to go to SanJacinto Schoolfor the 8th
grade. So we went there for one term (mypartner AlexanderBull and I);
and instead of going backthere we went to summerschool so we wouldn't haveto go backthere to SanJacinto. Wewent to summerschool and
madeup the high 8th from there to the old El PasoHigh. Like you said a while ago, there werejust aboutthat manyof our peoplethere. M: At El PasoHigh?
P: Theold high school,not the presentEl PasoHigh. Theold high school usedto be on ArizonaStreet right in backof Hotel Dieu. In fact, it's a nursingschool now, I think, for Hotel Dieu. That waswhere we went.
M: Whatdo you recall aboutyour high schoolyears?
P: Theprincipal thing that I recall is that wehad a very nice relation
there with someof our old schoolmateslike Chris P. Fox, [the present] GeneralSam Marsha11, Harry Welsh; all of the old-timers. Wegot along
fine. In school, I can't say that wewere ever shuntedaside. "We"-- I'm talking aboutAlexander Bull andmyself. But the rest of our people
wereafraid to go. Therewere lots of themthat didn't go to high schooljust on that account;they wentto businesscollege in order to
get a highereducation. But that o1dspirit prevailed,that the gringos didn't wantthem around. It wastrue. I don't knowwhether we were
just forceful, but we got by fine. Like I say, Chris Foxand I are the best of friends today. GeneralMarshall, the sameway. Andall of those old-timers. Wewent to schoolwith all of the Schwartzboys of the PopularDry GoodsStore; BernardKrupp; and all of the best peoplein town. I havenothinq to say aboutthe high schoolkids. In
our day they acceptedboth Alex andmyself. Onething I will say is that as far as jnvitations to the social life in their homes,there were PORRAS
very few of them. I don't think that we wereever invited to any
social affairs by morethan a coupleof families.
M: So there wasexclusion on the basis that you werea Mexican?
P: Yes, sir. That's it! Just becausewe wereMexican. But there werea
coupleof famifies fwho'invitedus]. Oneof themwas Jewish and the other onewas the family of a very prominentmining man, Mr. A.J. McQuarters.His childrenwere all in school. But outsideof that we didn't get any invites. M: Howd'id you feel about that? P: To tell you the truth about it, I thoughtnothing of it then. My
consciousnessof exclusioncame after WorldWar I--after I went away
and joined the Navyand traveledaroundthe world and sawdifferent things. WhenI cameback, theyweren'tgoing to pushme around. They
weren'tgoing to tell me, "LJell,you can't sit here;you can't come here." Thenis whenI wokeup. But prior to that I didn't havethe time to think aboutit.
Howdo you explain the changein attitude or in awareness? I becameaware of this exclusivenessbecause out of here, whereverwe went awayfrom Texas,away from the South,we noticed that there wasno
difference. l,'lhenI first wentto California--Los Angeles, SanDiego-- we usedto go everywhereand nobody said a th"ing. DownSouth, in the southernstates, that wasdifferent. Theybeat up a Negromesscook that we usedto haveon ship badly in KeyWest, Florida. I told him, "Any- time that you get ready to go downthere andyou want to punchsome of thoseguys, I'il go with you." 0f coursenwe didn't go, but I would have. Theway they treated him...andhe wasa fine fellow, fine fellow, Like I say, the South--dynamite. PORRAS t0
P: Did you travel throughthe Southduring the Service?
P: Yes.
M: Whatare your experiencesfrom that time?
P: l.Jell,the onethat standsout mostlyis right after WorldWar I.
re-enlisted so that I could go to the UnitedStates NavalAviation School in Pensacola,Florida. Theclasses were nine months1ong. So by the time that I got to Gulf Port, Mississippi--thatwas the training camp--Ihad
to wait six months. Theclass hadjust started, so I hadto wait six months. I wasassigned to that campat Gulf Port. BecauseI haddone recruiting duty here in El Pasoprior to go'ingthere, they put mer'n
there on recruit'ing duty. Our teamworked all of that backwoodscountry from Gulf Port all the wayup the river andthrough Louisiana, and all throughthere. There'swhere you see the difference. If your skin was just a little dark, brother, that's it. I didn't attemptto go to any
picture showsthere becauseI knewthat I wouldhave trouble. In restaurants the manin charge--usuallya Lieutenantor a LieutenantCommander at the most--hadto step downon a mealto keepthem from putting meout. But
whenwe got readyto go up north to Chicagoto take our mechanicaltrain- ing on the GreatLakes, there were"|500 seamen that weregoing for training
at the Lakesstation also. So they put us in charge. WhenI say "us" i meanthe rated men. I had a LieutenantCommander in charge of the group, and there weretwo chiefs, and there wereabout ten of us first-class
petty officers. Wewere in charge. Actually, in the Navy,Vou know, you travel first-class. Wehad dining roomservice and everythingright on the L&Mrailroad. So the first night out of New0rleans, we went into the dining car andwe sat down. Therewere a coupleof vacanciesthere. Oneof the civilians cameand sat downand he turned aroundand looked at me. I noticedhe got up'in a hurry. Hewalks up to the stewardand PORMS 1t
he cameback, and he said, "Youthink I'm goingto sit alongside of that Blackso-and-so?" just like that. WhenI heardthat, thatrs all
I wanted. I got up and I swungat him. By that time the Commanderin chargeof our groupcame over andhe wantedto knowwhat was wrong. So
the stewardtold him, "This manrefuses to sit here." TheCommander said, "Whyare you trying to force him to sit here? Get the hell out
of here," andhe gavehim a push. Andhe said, "He'snot goodenough to sit alongwith mymen here. Don'tyou sit anybodyelse here. I don't care whetherthere's five vacantseats. This is our grouphere, andthat's the wayit's goingto be." But, oh boy--thatleft an everlastingmemory in mymind that is bitter, very bitter. To think that I wasin uniform and I wasvery well presented;I wasa first-class petty officer; clean.
Andthis yokel here--theway he called me"that Blackson-of-a-bitch"-- I i ke that.
M: Did you actual'lypunch him?
P: Yes. I hada chanceto punchhim once,anyway. M: Did he fight back?
P: 0h nor no. He knewbetter, becauseI wasjust youngenough to not have
any better sense. I didn't haveany compunction about beating the hell
out of h'im! So tha:tstands out; oh yeah, that standsout. Like I said, I've hadto fight myway, literally. In the training campI wasin chargeof the recruits while wewere waiting for our school. Mostof
the recruits werefrom East Texas. In the morning,at reveille, i'd havethe recruits fall in andout, report, andall of that. Andthe Masterat Arms,which was mer.goes through the barracks. lllehad hammocksthere for the recruits. Thehammocks were high. I had a
billy club. Andyou'd just go downthe line andfeel fthe hammocks]. PORRAS 12
If there wasanybody there, you'd dumpthem over [and] they'd hit the ground. Therewas one of themthere. Whenhe hit the ground,he got
up andhe wasfighting. Hegot it. I foughthim; and I told him,
"Right after you get dressedup andeverything, I'll be over at the paradeground. I'm going to showyou that whenI give you an order you
take it." Hesaid, "Nogoddamn Mexican's going to tell mewhat to do." I did, I did; I went out and I showedhim. Abouttwo days iater I was taking a shower,and actually the only thing I hadwas a bar of soap in myhands. Herecomes this particular fellow with four moreto the
shower. He sajd, "Chief, I wantto talk to you." AndI figured they weregoing to gangup on me. He said, "Waita minuter"and he pu'lled this armhere. I haveth'is tatoo of an Indian there and he showedit to
the other fellows. He said, "See,I told you. I told you he wasan Indian; he's not a Flexican."He didn't mindbeing punched by an Indian,
but he wasn't going to be punchedby a Mex'ican.fThere were] many things I ike that. Did you knowother Mexicansin the Service?
Yes. Thefirst one that I ran into wasa fellow by the nameof GonzJlez. Hewas an older man;he was from SanFrancisco. Thenthere wasa fellow by the nameof Marti'nezwho was a musician--awonderful piano player. He wasfrom SanFrancisco. ThenI d'idn't meetanybody until my seconden-
listment. I met severalup at GreatLakes, Illinois. Oneof themwas a youngfellow here from El Paso--TonyVillegas. He wasa very, very smartstudent here at oneof the Catholicschools. His brother, Benny, is a big optician in Mdxicotoday. Whateverbecame of Tony,I don't know;I lost track of him. But there werenot many. Whatkinds of pos'itionsdid they havein the Service? PORMS l3
D. Thehighest rank that I can rememberwas that of Chief Petty Officer.
I met one officer, but he wasa doctor and he wasa Commander.He was
just a reserveoffjcer on active duty. But I neverknew a s'ing1eone
that wasa regu'larNavy man above the rank of Chief. Nevermet a one.
Theydidn't havethem in thosedays.
M: Whatyears wereyou in the Service?
P: l9l7 to 1921.
M: Whatdid you do after you cameout? WhenI cameout, I cameback here to El Paso. I had, like everybody says, the full andbeautiful intention of finish'ingschool. I was supposedto study 1aw,according to myfather, AndI liked it; I did. I actually liked the studyof law. But the glamourof the uniform (becausethere weren't very manythat worea Navyuniform here in those days)--betweenthe parties andthis andthat andthe other--I kind of lost my intentionsof goingback to school. Andthe local politicians grabbedahold of me, and I wentinto politics.
M: Right after the Service?
P: Right after the Service. M: Whatkinds of politics did you go into?
P: Thefirst job that I hadwas walking up anddown the streets as an Inspector. Thatwas my title--I wasthe SanitaryInspector. But what I wasactua'l1y
doingwas collecting votes. In other words,I wasshaking hands; a "glad- hander." Thatwas my job--a handshaker.II'd] greet everybody--especially 'if the guy's got five votes,Vou shook hands with him twice! If he was opposedto your candidateoyou kind of turnedaround and didn't shake handswith him. Thatwas the first job that I had. M: Did you get that job throughhe'lping somebody get elected into office? PORRAS 14
D. No, not that job. I got that throughthe instigation of someof the old
polit'icians whowere already in there. Theyknew that there wasan election comingand they wantedme to go aroundand fix up for future
voting strength. Thatwas the first job that I had in pofitics. And
then whenthe election cameby, I wasa speakerat all the rallies. I organizedthe different precincts; andwe hadmeetings and I wasthe speaker. Thefirst onewas for R. M. Dudley. He wasrunning for Mayor. Wewon mighty handi]y. After that, naturallyo I got different jobs. But that wasmy original job in politics.
M: Whenyou spokeat theserallies, wereyou talking to Mexicanpeople?
P: Yes. TheSouth and East side. 0f course,I graduatedup to Cleveland
Squareand someof the large placeswhere the audiencewas pretty well
mixed. But wedidn't haveany folks fromnorth of the tracks. Wedidn't haveany votes in those days. Everythingvvas south of the tracksn and the Valley, of course.
Whatare someof the other positions that you eventually got into?
t^lhenDudley got into office, the first job that he gaveme was that of Timekeeperfor the city. After that administration,the next Mayorthat
I workedfor wasMarvin A. Harlan. I washis hatchetman, VoU might say. Theydon't call themField Deputieshere. In California, you member,they had Field Deputies. But in thosedays they didn't have
themfihere]. Theyhad to st'ick you'in someparticular departmentin order to get you on the payrol1 . So that wasmy job. I went aroundand I organizedfor him. At that time I organizedthe YoungMenrs Demo- cratic Cluband the MarcosB. ArmijoPost, andthe SpanishAmerican Veteransof the WorldWar; all of those. Armijo Park that you see today, that wasmine. It wasgiven to meby MayorR. 14.Dudley. It used PORRAS t5
to be HidalgoPark; and I wentto him and he changedthe nameover to MarcosB. Arm'ijoPark. That wasway back in 1922.
M: Whydid you requesta namechange?
P: Becausethat wasthe only paisanothat wasoutstanding in Worldhjar I. He got killed in aboutthe first attack that the 36th Division launched.
He got woundedand he wasvery heroic about trying to get the mento go aheadand lead themon, for whichhe got decorated. So, I figured that he shouldhave that placenamed after him. It wasnothing in those days. It wasnothing but a dust heap,and it stayedlike that until MarvinHarlan came into office. ThenI got him to give us, with federal money,a wall aroundthere, put a rock fence aroundit, and fix it up. M: Whenyou wereinvolved with theselocal politicians, howwas the Mexican 'little communityorganized politically? Wasthere very activismhere? p. It waspractically the sameway it is today--30chiefs and3 Indians. That's the way it was. Everybodywas out on his own. So in order to wield a workingmass, we usedto havea heckof a time, oneheck of a time. Sowe organizedthe YoungMen's Democratic Club out here in East
El Paso. Andwe hadthe Latin AmericanCivic League. It soundeda little better, you know. Wehad that downtown.And, of course,we had
the veterans. But that's the wayit hadto be done,because you couldn't
appeal to themany other way. The reasonwhy we, the veterans, had the
best successis becausewe cotrldcommand more jobs than the other [organi- zationsl.
M: Werethere manyMexicans holding the kind of position that you held?
p. No, sir. Duringthe Dudleyadministration [there was]myself and the Clerk of the CorporationCourt, BenEscajeda. That's just aboutall in the city; thatrs just aboutit. Wedidn't haveanybody else. We PORRAS l6
had, of course,truck drivers andwe hadlaborers and all that. But
I meanthe white collar jobs, ro.
M: l'lhatwas the reason for that?
P: Theyjust didn't makethem available to us. [It was]not that wedidn't havethe material. Policemenwere few and far between,too. Andthey wereall just buckprivates--patrolmen.
M: Wouldyou say there wasdiscrimination against the Mexicanin employment? P: Definitely. That wasthe thing that wasglaring. I usedto get out there and lead a fight for that, and our ownpeople were the worst enemies that we had. I donrt knowhow familiar you are with LULAC,and I don't ask you whetheryou are favoring LULACor not; but someof the very men
in LULACused to opposeevery movethat we made. J. C. Machucahad a heck of a time. He is the organizerof LULAChere in this town; and there, mister, I can give you the low-downon all of that. J. C. Machucais
the manwho is responsiblefor LULAChere. But LULACdid not enjoy the reputationthat it has today. I'll not talk aboutreputation. Let us say the extent of its membersh'ip--wewere just a Ijttle handful because we werestepp'ing on the toes of the Anglogroup, Andthe oneswho were
responsiblefor all of that animositywere some of our ownpeople.
M: Howwas that?
P: Becausethe Anglowas the employer. I'm not goingto namenames, but I'm goingto name'incidents. Buildingand loan outfits--they got a mortgage on your house;you're payingfor it. Andsometimes it's a little bit shakyand you don't makea paymenton time. We11,that guy's got you
by the collar. So, what's happening?"0h, that bunchof Mexicansover there, Charlie Porras, and so forth and so on. Let's see, whohave we
got that be'longsto this thing?" "0h, so andso." "0K. We'lI calI so andso." "Nowlook, you're a memberof LULAC.What's the idea of PORRAS 17
you fellows raising all that hell aboutthis andthat andthe other?
Andbesides that," he says, "whyshould that guy Porrascome in here and run this showwhen you oughtto be doing it?" So the poor guy is
betweenthe devil and the deepblue sea. He has no fear from me, but he has got fear of the guy that's got the noteson his house. So, whathave you got? This manis doingthe bidding. This is actual fact;
not onecase, but several cases. Therewas one bankhere that wasout-
standing,and there wasonly one fMexican]employee; and naturally he wasafraid for his job, too. So they sent him in to join to see if 'lot. he could divide andconquer. Thatwas used quite a
M: Whatwere some of the activities that LULACwas involved in that they objected to?
P: l,rle11,you've got somethingthat's practically the same,on'ly on a larger scale today--theinflux of aliens fromMeixico coming in to workhere.
Wewere against themtaking awaythe jobs from the local people. And Irm stl'll againstit. So I finagledthrough some of myfriends, who
happenedto be in the Congressof the UnitedStates, and a few others.
Wehad that bridge closedup ti11 9:00 in the morning. Whenwas this?
It wasthe early'30s. I wouldsayr31 or'32. Thingswere tough. That's whenyour rel'ief outfits started here. Weneeded the work hereoand here
wereall these peoplecoming from the other side. So, I got the smart idea and I organizedthe DomesticWorkers' Association--all women, local,
fromhere. M'indyou, $3 a week! I wouldn'tlet themtake a nickle less; and they had to get car fare and this and that and the other. You'dbe surprisedto see the numberof women,I meanthe upperclass womenhere, that went to the Imm'igrationoutfit and tried to get medeported and PORRAS 18
tried to get mearrested becauseI was getting these womento stay
awayfrom them.
M: Thesewere maids that you organized?
P: Maids;and then I organizeda separateoutfit for laundrywork. The
laundries here werethe worst offendersof any of themwhen it cameto cheapwages. Thegreatest offenderof themall wasthe International Bricklayers' Union.They owned the International Brick Plant, and they
owneda laundryat that time that washeaded by a very big politician 1oca1ly. I clippedhis wings. In fact, I mightsound egotistic whenI say that I'm responsiblefor kicking him out of his Commissioner'sjob in the county""And it cameabout through this laundrythat he ran. But, brother, the womenused to go there andkick like the devil because
their ma'idscouldn't comeover before9:00. Westopped a lot of them fromcoming at all.
M: Howlong wereyou able to maintainthat?
Not very long, becausein thosedays my boy was little, I wasbuilding a house,and things weretough. So I couldn't weatherthe stormfinan-
cia'|ly. So insteadof knucklingundero I pickedup andwent to California. Duringthe Depression?
Right after the Depression. I went to work here for the FederalEmergency Relief Administration. I wasthe first Investigatorthat they had. Therolls werefull of aliens. L. J. Trotty wasthe headof the outfit
here, andhe knewthat I couldweed the aliens out; and I did. Howmany al'iens were on thoserolls? Mister, it's beenso long that I don't havea clear idea of it.. But the first trip that I made,they werebuilding a rock wall on RimRoad, the ScenicDrive. Therewere 750 men on that project. I mademy first trip there, bumpingthem out. Westarted at Cincinnati Street down PORRAS t9
below,and before we got to ScenicPoint there, i picked out 25. From
there on I don't recall off-hand,because I had2 assistantsand I turned over the thing to them.
M: Thesewere people who had federal jobs?
P: Well, FederalEmergency Relief Administrationwas supposed to be only for
Americancitizens; andit wasn'tso. So I didn't establisha great reputationof friendshipover there acrossthe line. In fact, I couldn't go acrossthere for a long time, I meanofficially, on accountof those activi ties .
M: Whatkinds of criticisms did you receive from Ju{rez?
P: I not only got criticisms, I got threats. Thehead of the taxi dri vers over there called meup personallyand told methat he'd be veryhappy
to see meon the other side. Theythreatened the Night Chief of Police andmyself. Hewasn't going to p'layring-around-the-rosey with us or
anythinglike that. And I comeback here today after 30 years, and I
f ind the situat'ionis worsetoda.y than it wasthen. M: Just a repetition of history. P: Onlyin greatersize.
M: Howlong wereyou able to keepthat bridgeclosed until 9:00?
P: Not very 1ong. Maybetwo months. Theirony of it is, oneof our b'ig city officials today, his father hadthe to-do with comingacross the bridgethere. It wasn'tthe ImmigrationService in M6xico. Hecould
close that bridgeat ll:00 or he couldclose it [wheneverhe wanted]. I mean,he hadthe powerto do so unquestionably. Theincident that
led to this threat by the headof the Taxi Drivers' Unionwas that at that time I hadthe title of Chief DeputyLicense Inspector for the city here, andmy buddy was N'ight Chief of Police, LeonardBuchofsky. PORRAS 20
[,'Jell,I caughtthis fellow on this side, a taxi, withouta local license.
In other words,he just hadthe Jua/rezpermit. I caughthim, and fhe gave me] the o1dguff about"Give me the ticket and I'll comeback and pay."
I said, "Lookchum, I knowwhat you'l1 do." I didn't knowwho he was. So I took himdown to the station and I evengot the Chief himself. I said, "Youhold this guy andth'is car. If he's goingto go over and
get moneyto payfor the ticket, Vouhold his car; don't turn this car loose." So he did just that. He let the fellow go, supposedlyto get money. But in the meantime,we're checkingup on this car, andwe find that it's stolen in Jua'rez. Theyhad a makeon it; it wasstolen. So
this fellow called myfriend Buchofskyon the phone,and he madethe threat to him. Andhe said,"Youtel1 your little so-and-sofriend that I'11 be waiting to seehim, too." SoBuchofsky called meat myoffice,
and I wentdown there and I called him. AndI find out that he is the Jefe del Sindicatode Choferesover there. So, whenhe said that, I said, "Tut, tut, buddy. You'renot goingto seeme over there; but if you wantto comeover here, then I'll seeyou." Incidentally, I didn't go for a long time becausehe wasn'tthe only onethat wasgunning for
me. Weput a stop to the taxis comingover. I usedto standat that bridgeand, brother, the first onethat'd comeover, WHAM,I'd take them
right over to [the police station]. But wecouldn't stop the maids. TheChamber of Commercehere, they werebitter aga'instme. Theywere fighting like hell, by go11y,to bounceme. Mr. So-and-so'swife is kicking abouther maidnot getting over here, andthe old manbelongs to the Chamberof Commerce,big people. So, we lost out on that. Werethey a'lsocomplain'ing about losing business? No. Theydidn't care so muchabout the businessas the hell that they werecatching at homebecause the wife didn't haveher maidover there.
That's the principal thing. It wasn'tso muchthe business,no. They PORRAS ?1
weren't losing any businessbecause they wereforqed to comeover here.
M: Duringthat time, manyMexican people went back to Mdxico. Doyou re-
call peopleleaving voluntarily or forceably? D. I can remembera lot of themleaving forceably, especially'in Los Angeles.
I happenedto be there at the time whenthat big drive for repatriation
fwasgoing on]. I wasin the dairy businessthen in LosAngeles. And it seemsthat about half of my route wasmade up of those people,and abouthalf of those peop'leowed me plenty of money;so I can remember that very vividly. Theywere sent back. And, incidentally, I can recall onefamily especially. Theydidn't go backvoluntarjly; they put them across. Youwon't believe it, but they took themdown there either / to Manzanior Mazatldn,one of the two. Well, do you knowthat that
family of father andmother and about 4 kids walkedacross the mountajns
and landedover here in Jua/rez?You can iust imaginewhat hardships they went through. Theycame over here to;uJrez in order to walk across
this river. I knowthat, becauseI metthem later here. Youcan'imagine howdesperate they were to get away. But they wallle-dall the way from the coast downto herenacross the mountains;they cameto JuJrez. Thenthe
first chancethey hit, they werehere.
Howmuch money did you lose in the dairy business?Any idea? That helpedme go broke. I hadworked for a coupleof years building
that businessup, so I lost everythingthat I had. I hada coupleof trucks, mypersonal furniture, myautomobile and all that. In other words,they brokeme. That's whenI cameback here; I got that job on the FederalEmergency Relief Administration.
M: Whendid you get to LA andwhen did you leave? P: I left here in 1928. M: Thenwhen did you comeback?
P: AboutI 93.|. PORRAS 22
M: Andthat's whenyou got involvedwith the federal programhere?
P: Yes. Roosevelthad just takenoffice. He is the onethat set up this
program. Everybodyin El Pasohere that was in the automobilebusiness
wentbroke. lvlyold friend L. J. Trotty lvasa bjg manfor DodgeMotor
Company;he had the distributorship here. He wentbroke, and they gave him this job of headingthe FederalEmergency Relief Administration. Andn
incidentally, he gaveme a job. But that's the waythat I got that job.
14: Did you get backon your feet onceyou got backhere? P: Yes.
M: Howwas life for the Mexicancommunity here duningthe Depression? P: Well, wecan't say that it wasany tougher,because at least they had a partial work program,they had lots of food. Maybeit wasn't the food that they wereused to, but they had food of somesort. Andthey had medicalattention. So it wasn'ttoo badfor certain people. 0f course, the onesthat wereused to work'ingand all of that, they didn't fare so well; it wastough. But they had canned food that they usedto
packand send over here, andthey hadlots of surplusmeat. It wasn't too bad, fike I say, for the peoplewho were not usedto getting out and workingfor themselves.
Whatdifferences were there betweenthe Mexicancommunity here in El Paso and the Mexicancommunity in Los Angeleswhen you were there? None,except that they hadfar morewelfare relief in California than here. Here, the federal governmentdidn't put out as muchas they did over
there. They still do. 0ne,thing that I hold against California is that
the alien has taken too manyjobs awayfrom our peopleover there. I
say "our peop1e,"because our peopleare the onesthat are suffering more. Did you knowthat the city of LosAngeles, the state of California, and PORRAS 23
the countyof Los Angeleshave got a great, great numberof al iens
employedon their Civil Servicejobs? That I know;it's not hearsay.
Before, it usedto be you werean Americancitizen beforeyou could
eventake the examinationfor those jobs. Yousee, I wasconnected with the city over there, too.
M: Areyou talking aboutresident aliens or illegal aliens? P: I'm talking aboutanl kind of alien--lega1aliens or il1ega1. The Civil Servicerulings werethat you hadto be a citizen in order to get those jobs. Thereason I knowis that I ownedsome apartment houses in
LosAngeles. I hadwonderful people there, mindyou; I hadnothing to say about them. But they camein here from Guatemala,and those people
there are not citizens yet; this is years back. Verywonderful people,
well educated;they went to work for the Countyof Los Angeles. They're still workingand they're still not citizens.
Whendjd you first becomeinvolved in LULAC? .|932, In whenI cameback from Los Angeies.
Whatwere some of the issues that LULACwas involved in in thoseyears? Job protection.
Havingto do with the peoplefrom the other side comingover? That's right.
Whatabout cases of discrimination? Therewere a few; but thosecases there werevery hard, becauseyou didn't haveenough backing from our ownpeople to makea showing. Thecase that I mentionedto you aboutthis Buildingand Loan outfjt grewout of that-- fromLULAC--the original Counc'il#8, the old Toltec Club. That's where it started. .l920s M: I'd like to backtracka little bit to the during the years of Proh'ibition. l,rlhatdo you rememberaboutProhibition and the activities
in CiudadJuirez? PORRAS 24
p- Well, there wasa blast in Jua/rezbecause everybody was in business
over there; and someof our peoplehere, too. Someof our pretty good
sized politicians wereinterested in the liquor businessover there.
And,naturally, they sold to the bootleggers.The o1d Peyton Packing
Plant--doyou rememberwhere that was? Whatis todayyour Chamizal. Boy, that wasa beautiful spot there. Theactivity there at night was
iust ljke Fifth andMain in Los Angeles--that'sthe wayit wasat night.
People[were] comingacross the I ine there with sacksof boozeand cansof alcohol and all of that. Yeah. I remembervery clearly, be- causeI had a lot of it broughtover for m.ypersonal use. M: Youwere a youngman then. Did you makefrequent trips to JuJrez? P: Unfortunately,yes; I did. Weused to havea groupthat playeddominoes over there from6:00 in the eveningtill closing time at the bridge at ll:00. Weplayed in variousbars over there like the old Central. We'd start there andwork our wayaround. lnle'dpark our car on this side of
the river. But we usedto be there everynight playingdominoes. Doyou remembersome interesting incidents during thoseyears?
0h yes, y€S. I rememberthe incidentsvery, very vividly. Therewas an old friend of minethat wasone of the outstandingboxers of the border. He wasone of our members.Every once in a while he'd haveto l.ay somebodyout becausethey'd try to comeover and bargeinto our gamethere; and he had to use his fists on them. That wasa very common incident. But the thing that standsout, onetime they hadan uprising over there. Theystarted shooting. It wasabout ll:00 at night, they started shooting. Wewere at the AnnexBar there in JuJrez. That's on l6th of September,right close to Villa Street. Theystarted shooting
andsomebody sa'id, "There's been a mutinyin the barracks." I didn't PORRAS 25
stop to hear anymore. This friend of mine,this boxerand I, led the
waydown the railroad track on PanchoVilla Street all the wayto the
border; andwe crossed not at the bridge [but] the tressle at the rail- road bridge. TheGeneral in commandof the garrison of there wasplaying
with us that night. Sowhen they cameto report to himabout this mutiny,
he didn't trouble himself. "Eh," he says, "useforce if you haveto. Calmthem down." He objectedto us leavingbecause we were into him for quite a bit. hleused to play for so mucha game. He started bawling
the hell out of us, "Ohr"he says, "youfellows are supposedto be
veteransof the WorldWar." flaughter] It wasquite a town. M: Doyou rememberany other interesting incidentslike that? P: No. I can rememberwhen the last time that Villa went in. I can remem- ber that.
M: In l9l9?
P: [Yes.] I'll tell you the reasonwhy I remember.I wasstanding by to go to Gulf Port, Mississippito wait mytime to go to the Aviat'ionSchool. I rememberwhen r/illa cameas far as the Judrezmonument there. And
his aide-de-camp,Colonel Delarco (who was quite a military man,he was
a fine fellow), got badlywounded in the stomach.It happened[that] ny brother-in-lawand I, andanother friend of mybrother's weredrinking at this particular bar whenthis happened.So they sent Delarcoover here to Hotel Dieu. Thegarrison headquartersfor the MexicanArmy is right in backof Lerdoand l6th of September.Right behindthere used to be Central Cafe',right on the corner--Gonr{lez'sp1ace. That wasthe outstand'ingn'ight club-bar in those days. Andthe ComandanciaJefatura
Militar wasright in back. t^lell,this [manin charge]--this"Bozo" here wassmart. He sent a platoonof menright straight downthe street PORMS 26
to the river, on the bankthere. Youknow where the El PasoBuilding Company,that lumberoutfit, is on this side of the river, on Stanton? It's about2 blockslong andit's sheetmetal; tin. Hehad his men fire directly into it. Therewas nothjng but lumberin there. They
fired about3 volleys directly into it. Thatwas enough. Theman from the 7th Calvarywas a l4ajor. He wasover there and he was qu'ite
guzzled. fthe MexicanCommander] told him, "Bullets are falling over there in the Americanterritory.'' F'ifteenminutes later the 7th Cavalry wason the way;theB2nd field artillery wason the way. The 7th Cavalry
cameright straight downfrom Fort Bliss andcrossed over here on Ham- mettowhat is nowthe Cdidovabridge. Therewas no bridge then. They crossedover. The82nd field artillery cameand they parkedtheir guns
right alongside StantonStreet, this s'ideof the river andthey started.
Theold racetrackover there had a beautiful cupolaover it. They knockedthat off with the first shot. So, Villa hadto go. He didn't retreat, but they cut downand went; they didn't take the town. They left the townand got out.
Yousay that the federal soldiers, then, shot over here to get the Americans to enter?
Youbet your life. Yes, s'ir. Thatwas done purposely. Did peop'leover here find out aboutthat?
Well, you know,they don't publishthese things. But people"in the
know"on both sides [did know]. This Majorwas from 7th Cavalry;his official title wasProvost Marshall. But he actedas liason betweenthe MexicanArmy over there and the AmericanArny here. He was a very good friend of the Commanderover there. He couldn't afford to havehis social
hour ruined. He told the Commander,"Just set themdown there. There's nothingin the warehousethere. It's stackedwith lumberto the roof." PORRAS ?7
So they did. That's whatactual'ly happened. 7th Cavalryand the 82nd
field artillery--I'11 neverforget those. Wewent over to in front of
the church, the little park there lin Ju#ez]. TheAmerican Commander wasBr"igadier General Irvin. That washis commandpost right there. He
wassitting in his car. Youget thosethings very quickly done;that is, if you happento be in the right place. But that's somethingthat was knownby everybodythat's hadanything to do with the local big-w'igs.
M: Mr. Porras,when'is the first time that you heardthe word"Chicano"? P: In LosAngeles, late'ly. Thatwas just aboutthe time whenthis boy Salazarwas killed. M: RubenSalazar?
P: RubenSalazar. Just aboutthat time. M: Youhadn't heardit beforethen?
P: I heardthe name;that is, "Chicano"was a slurring termfor oneof our
peop'le. But [it was]not usedthe wayit is now. Howwas it usedwhen you werea youth?
Well, Iike the word"nigger." Hewas a "chicano";he waseither a chicano or a zulomato,one of the two. Whatis a zuromato?
Zuromatois one of the peoplefrom Zacatecasnthe very lowestclass.
Weused to get themhere. Theywere poor track workers,laborers. "Chicano, like I saidowas a slurring termfor a Mexican. M: It referred mainly to a poor Mexican? P: Yes,definitely. M: Verylow class?
P: Very low class. But the waythey're using it today is the waythey started there in Los Angeles. In fact, I'm againstit. Nobodycalls PORRAS 28
mea Chicano. I refusedto be called a Chicano. AndI knowthat Salazar
nevercalled himselfa Chicano,never; not him- Sa1azarwas all together a different kind of a cat-
M: Did you knowhim?
P: Slightly. I knewhim in a coupleof veterans'rallies that wehad over there in the East side. But Roybalhappened to be a very goodfriend of
mine,and he had [salazar] at his houseat a party of somesort. I got to talking to him becausehe wasalso a Universityof Texasman, here, and my son had beenthere before him; so I introducedmysel f. Whenhe got killed, I wentdown there immediatelyto seethe place; in fact, the bodywas still there*-WhittierBoulevard, just the other side of Indiana. I ran into an announcerfrom the Mexicanstation there. What was the name? M: KMEX?
P: Somethinglike that. Channel34. Hewas with Salazarwhen he got killed. At least he waswhen they started shooting. By the time Salazargot killed that boywas long gone. Hewas a Colombianboy, but I can't re- memberhis name. Whendid you go back to Los Ange'les? Whentlorld trlarII started. l4yboy enl'isted, and he was going to take
his medicaltraining there in SanDiego. Mywife insisted that we go
over there and be with him as long as he washere. Wedid. Werented out our homehere andwe went out. I wasworking at Fort Bliss then. I was in chargeof the ordinancewarehouses here. I tried to get back into the Navy,but I couldn't passon accountof myeyes. But I did makeit as an Inspectorfor NavalAviation. Theysent medown there
to inspect material for the Navyplanes in SanDiego and Los Angeles both. So we stayedthere. lvtyson didn't last a year. PORMS 29
M: Youwere in SanDiego?
D. LosAngeles. But'I usedto go to SanDiego quite [often]. Convairhad large factories over there.
M: Wheredid you live in LosAngeles?
P: It wasthe East side, right in front of the ContinentalCam Company, on Pradoand Union Pacific. Theywere a big supplierof wingsfor us, the PBY-2's--thebig sea p'lanes. Theywere the chief supplierof wings,
so I usedto haveto go over there to inspect practically every day. M: Yougot a newjob whenyou got there?
P: Yes. I quit, becauseI didn't like this job here. It wastoo far away from wherethe action was. AndI'm not an Armyman anyway. But I
wasin chargeof the civilian personnelhere in the ordinanceoutfit.
M: Wereyou there whenthe zoot-suit riots took place? P: Yes,sir.
M: Whatdo you recalI aboutthat?
P: I say that it wasa glaring caseof anti-Mexicanism.That's all that I
can say--anti-Mexicanism.You used to read in the paperthat these zoot-suitersused to go out andbeat up the sailors andall of that. Phooey. It wasjust the reverse. 0h, I'll admitthat there werea lot of hoodlums
wearingzoot-suits and their women--theblack widows and all of that. But they didn't deliberatelygo out andmake it a point to attack the Service- men. 0h no. Mywife and I usedto go to churchdowntown on MainStreet, the Cathedralthere--it's on about3rd andMain. 0f course,that was during the War. I didn't havean automobile;I hada companycar that I used, but I couldn't take it home. Anyway,my wife and I usedto ride the bus. So we usedto walk from the Cathedralthere over to Broadwayoand stop in someplace and havea bite to eat; then come PORRAS 30
downand catch our bus on 7th and Los Angeles. Lots of times I've
seenthose guyscome out of the P E Depotthere on 6th and Mainand deliberatelyattack anychicanito that happenedto be passingby.
Naturally they retaliated. I'1.| say one th'ing, they werenot tough
enough. Theyshould have done more, but they didn't.
M. l,,lhowasn't toughenough?
D. The paisanos,the so-called zoot-suiters. Therewere not too manyof them--that's the reasonwhy. Theywere outnumbered, too, becausewe,
you might say the "respectable"peopie, had no use for them. In the first place it wason accountof their outlandishclothing andthey were strictly not our type--their modeof living andal'l of that. But they werejust a handfulcompared to all of the Servicementhat werethere.
Theyhad no backingfrom our people,which they didn't deserveanyway. But whenthey wereganged up like that, I wouldhave joined myself, becauseI can't stand that.
M: Did you get involvedat all in the protests? p. No. I didn't havetime. I was so busywith my governmentwork. My
boywas across the line then, and I didn't havetime for anything. 0nce
a weekwe went to churchover there, and that was it. Wehad to work day and night. Mywife took a job right acrossfrom there. Shemade wingsfor the Navy. Wewere right acrossthe street from the Continental
CamCompany.
M: Youmentioned that you wereinvolved with the Roybalcampaign. Did you get involvedwith the CSOover there?
P: No. This wasstrictly on a personalfriendship basis. WhenEddie spoke about running, there werea coupleof boysthat usedto work with meat ContinentalCam during the War. Theyknew Roybal, they had goneto PORRAS 31
school there--RooseveltHigh School. Andtleyrre the onesthat first told methat Eddiewas going to run. TheJews, the businessmenthere on Brooklyn,from Soto Street downabout 3 blocks there, wereall very
goodfriends of his. TlrcCantor outfit had a big restaurant, and then the WarsawBakery, and all of those people--they'rethe onesthat pushed
him 'into running. TheJews are the onesthat elected himoout on West Temp'leStreet, all of those. I regret to say I wasnever so disgusted
as [with] someof our paisanosthere; becauseI went campaigningfor him
persona'lly,and someof the replies that I got were,"Eh,psss Chicanolonriilpgrc Jo." That's wherethat "Chicano"came [from], It didn't set right with me. Like I usedto tell them,"Eddie is descendedfrom Americans, people that were here before GeorgeWashington ever thoughtof leading the
Arm'ieshere. Don't be saps." But he got elected; but nqt with the
Mexicanvote, [but] becausethe Jewsturned to be for him. M: TheMexicans just didn't vote at all, or votedagainst him? P: You'dbe surprisedto see the numberthat votedagainst him, yes, s'ir; simplybecause Eddie's opponenthad a hatchetman that wa- very weTTliked in the East side. He's
the one that walkedup-and down-the ataeet agaTnsFEildierTuti-illamithe beopleforiL M: Whendid you comeback to El Paso?
P: hlell, I just got backhere 17 monthsago. M: Youlived over there all that time? P: Thirty-two years. M: Thenyou werethere during the start of the ChicanoMovement. P: That' s ri ght. M: Whatfeelings do you haveabout everyth'ing that happenedthere in LA? P: I don't like it. I neverhave liked the attitude. I neverhave. To be frank with you, I don't believethat the bilingual programover there, PORRAS 32
the way they started it, was ever intendedto be the way that they camy
it out over there.
M: In LA, you mean?
P: Yes. I don't knowenough of it hereyet, you understand.But in Los
Angeles,I don't think it wasever intendedto be that way.
M: Doyou think that the ChicanoMovement has donemore harm than good?
P: Yes, sir. I definitely do.
M: In whatways?
P: We'l'l, in this way; let mejust mentionthis example. Doyou rememberthe NegroMovement a few years back, howrough and tough it wasand all of
that? Anddo you rememberhow they changedfrom one day to the other, and howthey've been advancing ever since? We'I1,the so-calledChicano Move-
ment,they don't knowwhen to 1et go of the old violenceand all of that. Theyhave still continuedit, so it's not gainingany popularityfor them. At least fromwhat I saw, i don't think it's proper. I definitely am not in favor of the ChicanoMovement as they interpret it over there.
I don't knowenough about it to seehow it's goinghere. Let meask you this question: Throughoutyour life you'vebeen aggressive and a fighter and so forth, andyou've mentionedbefore that too manyof
our peoplewere too submissive. That's right.
But nowcomes the ChicanoMovement in the m'iddle'60s,assert'ing them- selves and beingmore aggressive, more the type of behaviorthat you feel.
M,f,pattern , that' s ri ght. Wherersthe conflict?
You'vegot to cut if off somewherein order to consolidatethe gains. I think you'll agreewith methat fear plays a great part in the feelings PORMS 33
of people. Fearis onething that has gainedrespect for the Negro. But he knewwhen to cut it off. Hedidn't continuewith this agressive-
ness. I'm in favor of [being] aggressive,yes. But you've got to cut it off somepJace.In other words,let us say you turn on the water in order to feed the p'lant; but you've got to turn it off somewhereor otherwise
you're goingto spoil it. Itrs just exactly the waywith this. Sure, you let the peop'leknow that you wantjustice, you wantequality. That's good. Whycarry it further? Whycarry it beyondthat? [,et's bring in the benefits now. I don't say it for myse'lfbecause I never haveneeded
anybodyto go out and fight mybattles for me.
M: Whydid you comeback to El Paso?
P: Well, let us say that I havea dreamof building a memorialto myson,
whichi'm goingto do. That's the reasonwhy we sold out over there
andcame back over here. [Mywife] doesn't like it. Shecame back just so I wouldcome.
Mrs.P: It's just that we promisedmy son that we wouldcome back.
p. Whenwe went over there, she wentover there first. Hetold her definitely,
"I donrt wantyou to stay here. I wantyou to go backhome." So after spendingall that time over thereand see'ingthat we weregetting nowhere as far as the racial end of it wasconcerned,I decidedwe'd comeback
and start workingon his flmemorial]. Whatkind of memorialdo you want to build for him?
A memorialplayground. That's whathe'd want. Wehad a small pieceof land here on WendaWay off SanJose'Road. When he wasgoing to high school, he wantedto put in a swimmingpool and a small playgroundthere for the neighborhoodkids. So that's what I havein mind.
Whatdo you think of the Bicentennialand the wayit's beingrun in El Paso? PORRAS 34
B: l,rlell,frankly, I haven'tnoticed too muchaction for it becauseI've beenso busyfixing up the p'lacehere. This wasnothing but bare sand.
In l7 monthswe've fixed this up the waywe want it, We,'rejust about
throughnow. Really, I haven'thad much of a chanceto notice what's
goingon regardingthe Bicentennialcelebration.
M: Thinkingback to whenyou werehere before and someof the celebrations
that we'vehad here in El Paso,when they commemoratehistorical eventso they talk aboutthe pioneersof El Paso. Theemphasis they put is on Ang'lo Americans,but very little is said aboutthe Mexican. Doyou haveany feel ings aboutthat? p. Yes, sir. I havealways taken part in a1'l of the celebrationswhen I washere; in fact, dry kind of a celebrationnincluding some of myown makingyou mightsay. But the paisanowas never asked, and never did
offer, to take part. Theoutstanding celebration in mymind is wayback, * the Osaple Parade. It wasbeautiful. It standsout in mymind, and mywife and I often discussit. But outsideof thato the 4th of July or any of the other feast days, the paisanowas always backward. Like I say,
aggressiveyeah; I usedto get out andfight like hell in there. Did you knowthat I started the Bicycle Derbyfrom Ysleta downto El Paso on the 4th of July? Whenwas this?
About1934. WhileI washere, that wenton underthe auspicesof MarcosB. Armijo Post. WhenI left here we had a bicycle safety club. Doyou rememberold Liberty Ha'|l here? Weused to havea court there. That placewas jammed wjth kids that belongedto the bicycle club. When I left here, things weregone. Andthe celebrationin SanElizario, we usedto go downthere and put on somebig wing-dings. Thereare beauti- ful peopledown there 'in San.Elizario. I like themall. 0f coursen
mostof themare gonenow. But, outsideof the little regionalcelebrations' PORMS 35
the paisanonever participated.
Whatdo you think aboutthe assimilationof the Mexicansinto the dominant
society?
Let mesay this, and I say it very frankly. Qursituation here is such
that we, the native born, are carrying a load on our shouldersdue to the proximity of the border. Toomany of our peoplehere havenot for- gotten that they wereeither born in M6xicoor their folks were born in lvleixico.And when you try to camy water on both shoulciers,you can'i
be a Mex'icanand be an Americanboth. Youcanrt do it. That's the way
I see it. You'veeither got to forego one or the other. I respect the feliow that is a Mexicancitizen; brother, I'm for him100%, AndI feel the sameway about the fellow that is an American. But there's too many of the peoplehere that holler just as 1oud1yon l6th of Septemberor
5th of Mayor 4th of Ju1y. Andyou can't; you either carry out the dic-
tates of one or the other. In other words,VOu can't be fish and fowl. That has beenthe trouble here. Wewould go out, I say "we"--LULACwas one of them. !'le'dgo out to the schoolsand preachAmericanism. I
don't knowwhether you knowthe ritual for LULAC.What does it say? Americanismis--was, anyway,when I wasa member--themain theme. We'd go out andpreach this in the schoolsand all of that; and the first
thing you knewit somebig wig from acrossthe line wouldcome over and
Sdy, "Regardlessof whereyou wereborn, you are Mexican." I didn't like that. Djd you knowthat I stoppedthe paisanosfrom us'ingLiberty Hall to celebratethe Cincode Mayo,the l6th of September?I'm the guy that wasresponsible. JudgeMcGill got so damnmad; he said, "Look, hereafteryou're goingto be responsible;you be in trouble. If you
want themto use it, good;and if you don't want themto use ito no. PORRAS 36
But I'm not going to get caughtin the middleany more.rr Doyou remem-
ber ProfessorEsquivel, the headof the Palmorecollege? He wasthe
headof the organization[ilrat] representedthe so-called upper-class Mexicans. Theyused to celebratel6th of Septemberand all of that.
0h, he and I hada lot of clashes. Mygood friend FrankGalv# got
mixedup there one time. He left in a hurry, too. It wasvery b'itter. Like I say, I object to that. You'reeither goingto be oneor the other. M: ManyAng'lo Americans seem to feel that the lack of progressamong Mexicanshas beendue to the Mexicancultureo that there's somethingin the Mexicanculture that preventspeople from havingthe workethic, the Puritan work ethic. There'sa stereotypethat Mexicansare 1azy. Whatdo you think of that? p. No. I say that there are different types of peoplein every race. That
has beenproven. If giventhe opportunity,I don't give a hoot if the
guy comesfrom "Cusiburiachi"or he comesfrom NewYork City or from Havana. Yougive h'imthe opportunityto get out into any chosenfield andhe'll makeit. But, let mejust tell you this: Ourown people are the onesthat haveheld backtheir own. In other words,unfortunately our paisanoshere see one of our boysgo'ing up; and that damnjealousy,
that spirit of hatred [starts up] just becausethe manis on his wayup. In other wordsothe o1d adage"If you raise your headabove the common herdo'youimmediately become the target of all abusesand all of the jealousy." We'reloaded with that. But I deffnitely don't believethat the paisanois lazy. No. Weraised a boy; he wasn'tour son. We broughthim here; poorkid was1'l years old andpractically starving. M: FromMdxico?
P: Yeah. Webrought him over. Mywife laid out Cashbonds and this and that andthe other. Weraised him, sent him to school. Todaythat boy's PORRAS 37
got a darn goodjob with Bankof Americain Los Angeles;he graduated
fromcollege over there. He's marriedand has a beautiful family now. Hewas born andraised in Mdxicotill the ageof ll,
Ivl: Howdid you happento adopthim?
D. Well, we didn't adopthim. t,lJejust raised him. Mywife hada business-- a catering service. At her place of businessthere wasa manthat repaired
the appliances--refrigeratorsand everything like that. This woman--this boy's mother--wasliving with this man. He smuggledher over from Mdxicoand they were living there il'legal1y. Thepoor tot usedto sneak peaksthrough the windowwhere she was, her big kitchen. Naturally the
odor of food wasthere, usually turkey, chickenfor the catering service. Andshe sawhim. Right awayshe grabbedhim, and she wentto the Immigra-
tion Service. Theymade her put up cashbonds and all of that. But
like I say, that kid there is wonderful. Myboy wasnot any better brought up than he was.
Mr. Porras,I've exhaustedall the questionsthat i have. Is there any- thing else that you wouldlike to mentionin this interview? Theonly thing that I say is that I amnot in favor of this ChicanoMove- ment. If they changethat name,then I might. But Irm for anythingthat will give our peoplea boost. That gripesme, when they designatethem-
selves fas Chicanos]. Thepeople from the NationalAssociation for the Protectionof ColoredPeople don't call themselvesniggers. I think that they're on the right track becausewhen they cut loose and got rid of all of the toughelement, they consolidatedtheir gainsoand brother, look where
they are [today]. Well, in LosAnge'les, take a look at all of the progress that they've made. Theywould not havemade it; becauseif you imitate peopleto the point whereif they weren'tagainst you, they''I1go out
andfight you. If the Negroeshad continued with all of the rioting and PORRAS 3B
'l all of that, that's whatwould have happened. I don't i ke our people to do that.
Thankyou very much,Mr. Porras, for a very interesting and enlightening interview.
P: Well, Irm speakingto you frankly. Like I say, I've lived a long time, and I've alwaysliked to messaround in all of this.
M: Thankyou very much,sir.
*El Pasospelled backwards.