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House of Lords Official Report Vol. 722 Monday No. 66 15 November 2010 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Introduction: Baroness Hollins Questions Justice: Magistrates’ and County Courts Educational Psychology Healthcare: Costs Health: Private Medical Insurance Communications Committee Membership Motion European Union Committee Membership Motion Statutory Instruments Committee Membership Motion Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion Freedom of Information (Time for Compliance with Request) Regulations 2010 Motion to Approve Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Motion to Refer to Examiners G20 Statement Legal Aid and Civil Costs Reform Statement Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Second Reading (1st Day) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. 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All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2010, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 509 Introduction: Baroness Hollins[15 NOVEMBER 2010] Justice: Magistrates’ and County Courts 510 facilities for custody or for victims and witnesses and House of Lords poor security for professional staff and judges. Therefore, although we will look at the case for that use, the best Monday, 15 November 2010. way is to have modern, purpose-built courts that can dispense justice efficiently. On the first part of my 2.30 pm noble friend’s question, yes, we are well aware of the long-standing role of magistrates. Next year will be Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Blackburn. the 750th anniversary of magistrates in this country. Introduction: Baroness Hollins Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I declare an interest as a former president of the Sussex Magistrates’ 2.39 pm Association, and I am sorry to say that the magistrates’ court at Lewes is currently under threat of closure. Sheila Clare Hollins, having been created Baroness Does the Minister agree that the more work we can Hollins, of Wimbledon in the London Borough of Merton channel into the magistrates’ courts, the better? If so, and of Grenoside in the County of South Yorkshire, was why do we not now consider raising their jurisdiction introduced and took the oath, supported by Lord Rix limit from six months’ imprisonment to 12 months’ and Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws, and signed an imprisonment? undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. Lord McNally: My Lords, I take note of that advice. Lord Drayson took the oath. One of the objectives in the Government’s review of sentencing, which will be published shortly, is to ensure that a proper volume of work goes through the Justice: Magistrates’ and County Courts magistrates’ courts. Question 2.44 pm Lord Anderson of Swansea: Apart from the inconvenience to the public, is there not a danger that, Asked By Lord Phillips of Sudbury when justice becomes less local, justices will not be able to reflect the prevalence of certain offences in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment their district in the sentences that they give? Is there they have made of the effects on local justice of the not also a danger that good justices will be lost to the closure of magistrates’ and county courts and of system because of the extra travelling time involved? holding such courts in multi-use buildings. Noble Lords: Come on! Lord McNally: My Lords, to a certain extent those are concerns, and we will keep them under close review. However, we live in a more mobile age and The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord justices will be given assistance with travel costs. The McNally): I beg your pardon; I am not playing for longest journey to court—this is an extreme under the time. My Lords, the Government are committed to new proposals—will be 40 miles, and most journeys the principle of local justice. However, our court estate will be much less. I understand the concerns but they must reflect changes in population, transport and do not outweigh the fact that, as the Lord Chief communication links, technology, workload and the Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said: needs of today’s communities. These are the factors that will be in mind when judging where to locate “It is obvious that a number of courts in different parts of England and Wales no longer fulfil any sufficiently valuable courts. public purpose”. Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, will my noble Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords— friend the Minister give a commitment that, in making final decisions on which county and magistrates’ courts will be closed, they will take into account: the fact that Noble Lords: Trumpington! local justices and local courts have been the bedrock of criminal justice in this country for many centuries, Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, why was Bow and successfully so; that the cost and inconvenience to Street magistrates’ court, home of the Bow Street public users of distant courts is considerable, and for Runners, the first court and a listed building, allowed the one-third who have to use public transport is to be sold as a hotel when, I am told, there was an unsupportable; that the magistrates’ courts reckon offer from a group of ex-police officers to buy it and that only a third of the 100-plus magistrates’ courts turn it into a museum? Is the Minister also aware that closures are justifiable: and, finally, that the better it was the only court without a blue light outside alternative would be to revert to using multi-purpose because Queen Victoria did not like it? buildings, such as town halls, which would be much cheaper? Lord McNally: I was not aware of that. I do not know whether this was undertaken by the previous Lord McNally: My Lords, the attraction of multi- Administration but the most distinguished ex-Lord purpose buildings has a superficial appeal. The problem Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is that many of them that might offer that up have no is nodding. He obviously did the dirty deed. One of 511 Justice: Magistrates’ and County Courts[LORDS] Educational Psychology 512 [LORD MCNALLY] Baroness Massey of Darwen: I thank the Minister the things that I have asked for in the review is that we for that semi-positive reply. Does he accept that many keep a check on which courts are listed buildings and children who have social and emotional problems what is likely to happen to them. need educational psychologists to support them and their families? Does he further accept that without the Baroness Smith of Basildon: In none of the Minister’s help of educational psychologists many of these children answers has he mentioned the victims of crime having simply will not receive the support they need? Could to attend magistrates’ courts or county courts that are he give more details about the recruitment and training some distance further from their homes than they of psychologists? What will the Government do to otherwise would. Is he aware of the number of cases insist that these educational psychologists are present that are adjourned because somebody does not turn in schools? up to court? A victim of crime may have to attend court two, three or four times before their case is Lord Hill of Oareford: I certainly accept the two heard. What assessment has the Minister made of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, financial, let alone emotional, cost of victims returning about the importance of educational psychologists to court several times to have their case heard? and the role that they play. As I explained in my first Answer, the difficulty with training is that the money Lord McNally: I think the roar of approval is very that has been given to local authorities so that they apt. It is something that we are looking at very carefully. can make a voluntary contribution to the Children’s One of the issues that I know the Lord Chancellor is Workforce Development Council is not being paid.
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