Tuesday Volume 682 13 October 2020 No. 118

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 13 October 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 141 13 OCTOBER 2020 142

to ensure that we stand up for the people of Hong House of Commons Kong, to call out the violation of their freedoms and to hold China to its international obligations.

Tuesday 13 October 2020 Andrew Rosindell: Does the Minister agree that the national security law in Hong Kong has infringed the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock rights of many Hongkongers and broken international law by breaching the joint declaration? Will he now either urgently review his Magnitsky sanctions regime PRAYERS or outline how he intends to target those who instigate such appalling human rights abuses against this once [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] proud British Crown colony? Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, Nigel Adams: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that. 4 June). As he will know, on 6 July we established our global [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] human rights Magnitsky sanctions regime, and it is under constant review. However, he will be aware that it is not appropriate to speculate on who may be designated Oral Answers to Questions under any future sanctions regime, because to do so would reduce the impact of those designations. Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): Successive FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND Conservative Governments since 2010 have been naive DEVELOPMENT OFFICE and complacent in their dealings with the Chinese Government. The resulting combination of over- The Secretary of State was asked— dependence on China-based supply chains and the breaking of important international alliances has diminished our Hong Kong: National Security Law ability to exert influence on Beijing. Yet, despite these failings, there is clearly more that the UK could be Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con): What assessment he doing for the people of Hong Kong. Will the Minister has made of the effect of the National Security Law on specify what the Government plan to do regarding the people of Hong Kong. [907434] citizenship for Hongkongers born after 1997? What Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): What assessment consular support can he provide to the four BNO he has made of the effect of the national security law on passport holders who are now detained in mainland the people of Hong Kong. [907454] China after attempting to flee? Will he commit to sanctioning the senior mainland Chinese Communist The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): We have been party and Hong Kong Executive officials who have clear that the national security law has had a chilling been committing human rights abuses? It took the effect on society and that it constitutes a clear and Government just days to sanction Belarusian officials. serious breach of the Sino-British joint declaration. It What, or who, is causing this delay? contains a range of measures that directly threaten the freedoms and rights protected by the joint declaration. Nigel Adams: We are working closely with the Home In response to the national security law, the UK has Office on our response for the BNOs, and there will be offered a new immigration path for British nationals, much more detail coming out in due course. suspended our extradition treaty and extended our arms With regard to the cases that the hon. Member raises, embargo on mainland China to Hong Kong. We urge we have raised the cases of the people detained in the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities to abide by Shenzhen with the Chinese authorities in Hong Kong, their international human rights obligations. and we have made it clear that due process should be followed. The rights and freedoms of people in Hong Robbie Moore: In July, books by pro-democracy figures Kong, including their rights to freedom of speech and were removed from public libraries, and just last week assembly,are expressly guaranteed in the joint declaration, Hong Kong’sleader,Carrie Lam, said that it was important and rights committed to under the declaration must be to upheld. Under the memoranda to the joint declaration, “weed out the bad apples” BNOs are entitled to consular assistance in third countries, from the education system in response to a teacher but not in Hong Kong, Macau or mainland China. The “promoting Hong Kong independence”. Does my hon. Chinese authorities do not recognise dual nationality, Friend agree that the UK reserves the right to take and absolutely would not grant UK consular access for further action to safeguard the rights of those in Hong those individuals. On sanctions, I refer the hon. Member Kong, especially if the human rights situation continues to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for to deteriorate further? Romford (Andrew Rosindell). Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We Trinidad and Tobago: Repatriation have taken clear action in response to the national security law,including, as I said, offering a new immigration Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): What steps he is path for British national overseas passport holders, taking to assist the authorities in Trinidad and Tobago suspending our extradition treaty and extending our to repatriate their citizens stranded in the UK as a result arms embargo on mainland China to Hong Kong. We of the closure of that country’s borders in response to will continue to bring together our international partners the covid-19 pandemic. [907435] 143 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 144

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Wendy Morton: My hon. Friend raises an important Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): point, and ending child marriage is key to delivering the The Trinidad and Tobago Government decided to close Prime Minister’s commitment of championing 12 years their borders on 22 March due to covid-19, and they of quality education for girls. Since 2015, our £39 million remain closed. Consular support for Trinidad and Tobago flagship programme has helped to reach just under nationals remains the responsibility of their Government. 40 million people with information designed to change However, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development attitudes towards child marriage. The UK will continue Office officials are in close contact with the Trinidad to use its development programmes and global leadership and Tobago authorities, and we advise all Trinidad and to end child marriage. Tobago nationals to contact their high commission in London for assistance. Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op): Yesterday, the Prime Minister spoke about his manifesto Mr Baker: I have Trinidad and Tobago citizens in my commitment that every child should have the best possible constituency who are burning through their savings and chance to have an education, yet development spending really terrified about failing to get home to protect their on primary education has been cut by more than 27% homes and businesses from the approaching severe weather. this year, which is evidence of a Government without a Will the Minister join me in calling on Trinidad and strategic direction who cannot be trusted to deliver on Tobago to ensure that their citizens get home? I think it their rhetoric. Will the Minister tell us whether the is common humanity to enable people to return to Prime Minister is aware that the Foreign Secretary is protect their homes. cancelling and postponing programmes that would enable girls to have a safe education, such as the one investing Wendy Morton: My hon. Friend raises an important in adolescent girls in Rwanda? point about people in his constituency. The Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office has alerted Wendy Morton: The UK is a world leader in both our the Trinidad and Tobago high commission to cases of educational expertise and our development spend, and stranded Trinidad and Tobago nationals whom we have during the official development assistance prioritisation been made aware of, and has supported affected individuals process difficult but necessary decisions were made to to contact the high commission directly.It is also important meet our 0.7% ODA commitment. However, the process to say that we are in regular contact with our counterparts has ensured continued support and commitment to in Trinidad and Tobago. ODA priorities, including girls’ education. On Rwanda, the issue was raised with the Prime Minister at the Education for Girls Liaison Committee. A tough decision was taken, but the UK has protected schools and education spending Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) across the world. We continue to support women and (Con): What assessment he has made of the effect of girls in Rwanda to have a decent education, and our the covid-19 pandemic on progress in implementing the spend in the country is expected to total approximately Government’s policy on ensuring that girls throughout £13.6 million. the world receive 12 years of quality education. [907436] Occupied Palestinian Territories and Israel The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): About 650 million girls were removed from primary Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): With reference and secondary education at the pandemic’s peak, and to the resolution of the House of 13 October 2014, some risk dropping out of school permanently, so we what steps the Government are taking to recognise the must mobilise global investment and commitment to state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel, as a get education back on track and defeat the global contribution to securing a negotiated two-state solution. learning crisis. The UK is proud to be co-hosting the [907437] Global Partnership for Education 2021 financing conference. We have adapted our education aid Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): What diplomatic programming, and have committed new funding to steps he is taking to help secure peace between Israel UNICEF,Education Cannot Wait and the United Nations and the Palestinian people. [907441] Population Fund to address the impacts of covid-19 on women and girls. We will use our presidency of the G7 The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa next year to rally the international community for greater (James Cleverly): The UK is a strong supporter of support for girls’ education. Palestinian state building efforts. In 2019, we spent £81 million in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Part Nickie Aiken: I certainly welcome the Prime Minister’s of that contribution is helping to build Palestinian state announcement yesterday about the summit on global institutions;fosteringprivatesector-ledsustainableeconomic education. One reason girls are prevented from receiving growth; and providing technical assistance to strengthen education is that they are forced into child marriage. A the Palestinian Authority’sfinancial management. However, recent Save the Children report revealed that a further such progress can never be a substitute for a political 2.5 million girls are at risk of being forced into marriage settlement, which is why the Foreign Secretary visited by 2025 because of the current pandemic. With that in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories in August mind, will the Minister assure me that the FCDO will actively to encourage Israel and the Palestinian leadership ensure that programmes to end the heinous practice to renew co-operation and work together. I also discussed of child marriage are at the centre of international this matter with UN special co-ordinator Mladenov on development strategy? 1 October. 145 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 146

Andy Slaughter: That is not an answer. Six years ago Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his today, this House voted by 274 votes to 12 to recognise question. He is absolutely right to raise this matter. We the state of Palestine. Three years ago, the Prime Minister, believe that democracy, human rights and the rule of then Foreign Secretary, said that law are the absolute foundations on which open, stable “you have to have a two-state solution or else you have some kind and prosperous societies thrive. I am more than happy of apartheid system”. to commit on behalf of the Under-Secretary of State How can there be a two-state solution without two for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, states? The UK’s recognition of the state of Israel my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills shows that we respect its non-negotiable rights. Why (Wendy Morton), to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss should our recognition of the state of Palestine be a this issue. matter for negotiation? Are Palestinians entitled to less respect and fewer rights than the Israelis? Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) [V]: The International Development Committee is currently holding James Cleverly: As I have said, the UK Government an inquiry into sexual abuse and exploitation by aid have supported the Palestinian Authority in putting in workers of the beneficiaries, and I am ashamed to place the building blocks for a future Palestinian state, report that we are finding that it is rife. I welcome the which we recognise. We have been very vocal that our fact that the new Department has brought forward a preferred option is a safe, stable two-state solution, with safeguarding document as one of its first publications. a prosperous and peaceful Palestinian state neighbouring However, will the Minister please comment on why the a prosperous and peaceful Israeli state. FCDO’s terms and conditions for staff say: Caroline Ansell: The middle east is changing before “Sexual relations with beneficiaries are strongly discouraged”? our eyes and the significance of Israel’s peace agreements Why is this not gross misconduct when there is an with the UAE and Bahrain cannot be overstated. Does obvious power imbalance, and what will the Minister my right hon. Friend agree that this new development do to remedy this immediately? between Israel and her Arab neighbours changes the narrative, creates a new dynamic in the region, and gives Nigel Adams: I thank the hon. Lady for raising a very rise to new hope for a peace deal? important issue. I do not have those terms and conditions James Cleverly: The normalisation of relations represents in front of me, but I am more than happy to meet her to a move towards peace in the region, and the UK strongly discuss what sounds like an incredibly serious point that welcomes that. We encourage other states to choose the she has raised. same path, but, ultimately, there is no substitute for direct talks between the Palestinians and Israel, which is Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ the only way to reach a two-state solution and a lasting Co-op): Of course, what the Minister forgets is that the peace. We do hope that normalisation can encourage reason we are getting a seat on the UN Human Rights dialogue between the parties and the UK stands ready Council today is that the seat is uncontested. We actually to support such efforts. have no representatives—a historic low—on any of the main committees of the 10 United Nations human FCO/DFID Merger rights treaty bodies and we have already failed to get elected to the International Court of Justice for the first Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): What the Government’s time since world war two. Human rights barrister Amal policy is on promoting human rights, democracy building Clooney resigned as a UK envoy, saying that it was and the rule of law internationally, following the merger untenable for her to urge other states to respect and of his Department and the Department for International enforce international obligations when the UK declares Development. [907438] that it does not intend to do so itself. With so many The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): The UK is crucial human rights abuses that we should be rightly committed to the promotion and protection of human taking leadership on, does the Minister accept that we rights, democracy and the rule of law acting as a force undermine our position when his fellow Ministers for good in the world. The UK is one of the longest undermine the rule of law and our commitment to standing members of the Human Rights Council, and human rights? we are aiming to maintain that record at today’s election. Another good example is our recent activity at the UN Nigel Adams: No, I do not accept that whatsoever. on China, which shows our commitment to defending We have clearly set out our reasons for introducing the human rights in Xinjiang. measures related to the Northern Ireland protocol. We need to create a legal safety net to protect the integrity Tony Lloyd [V]: I welcome the Minister’s words, but of our internal market and ensure that we can deliver may I refer him and his words to the situation in on our obligations. The UK Internal Market Bill is a Colombia where, since the signing of the peace deal in defensive, precautionary and proportionate measure to 2016, we have seen hundreds of human rights defenders, safeguard the integrity of the United Kingdom. civic leaders, trade unionists and former FARC—Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia—members Amazon Rain Forest murdered, and where the fragile democratic process saw the FARC move from the armed struggle to the political process. Will the Minister commit to making Colombia Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): What recent a priority for this Government and will he or one of his representations he has made to his Brazilian counterpart colleagues commit to meeting a small delegation of on climate change and protection of the Amazon rain MPs who are concerned about Colombia? forest. [907439] 147 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 148

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, and we are confident that our Iranian contacts, including Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): Foreign Minister Zarif, fully understand our concerns On 7 October, the Foreign Secretary held a strategic and our condemnation of such harassment. dialogue with his Brazilian counterpart which covered a number of topics of mutual interest, including trade, Nagorno-Karabakh security and human rights. The Foreign Secretary raised the issue of climate change and the need to protect the Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): What proposals Amazon from further deforestation. We run major the Government have put forward to the UN Security programmes on sustainable agriculture and deforestation Council on a resolution to the conflict over Nagorno- with various stakeholders in Brazil that totalled £259 million Karabakh. [907442] between 2012 and 2020. Climate change is one of the mostimportantglobalissues,andinternationalco-operation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, is vital to tackling it. As COP26 president, the UK will Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): continue to work in partnership with Brazil on this Weremain deeply concerned about the conflict in Nagorno- important issue. Karabakh, and call on all parties to take every measure possible to protect civilians. That is why, on 29 September, Chris Elmore: Some 58.4% of the Amazon rain forest the UK called for discussion at the UN Security Council. sits within Brazilian borders. I am glad that the Foreign The day before that, on 28 September, I spoke to both Secretary is raising the issue of climate change, but it is the Azerbaijani and the Armenian Foreign Ministers to not one of the greatest issues facing the world; it is the urge a return to dialogue under the OSCE Minsk group biggest issue facing the world. Coronavirus is bad, but to ensure a peaceful and sustainable settlement. the longer-term problems of climate change could consume various countries around the world through flooding or Barry Gardiner: The Minister will know that there deforestation. With COP26 now moved to next year, are more Azeris living in Iran than there are in will the Minister make far more robust representations—not Azerbaijan—some 50 million of them, who hold great just to the Brazilian Government, but to many South sway and influence. Russia, on the other hand, is firmly American Governments—about the prioritisation of committed to supporting Armenia in this conflict, and stopping illegal logging and the process of deforestation? that could see the Russian and Iranian co-operation in the Syrian war come under severe strain. What concerns Wendy Morton: As I said in my previous answer, the does the Minister have about the potential for Iran to Foreign Secretary had a strategic dialogue with his become embroiled in the dispute, and what steps is her Brazilian counterpart, and both countries have affirmed Department taking to avoid that situation? that they will work to ensure that the COP delivers substantial negotiated outcomes in the fight against Wendy Morton: As I clearly indicated, we remain very climate change. We believe that climate change is one of concerned about this conflict, and the hon. Gentleman the most important global issues, and will be working is right to raise it. That is why we are continuing to work not just with Brazil but with other countries to tackle to urge both parties back to the table to have dialogue, this important issue. and to use the Minsk process to further that.

Iran: BBC Persian Journalists Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. I have two very concrete Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What recent points. We are all concerned about the risk of a proxy representations he has made to the Iranian authorities war within this, because there are more than two sides on the intimidation of BBC Persian journalists in that to the conflict. What steps are the UK Government country. [907440] taking to make sure that no UK-made armaments, or indeed UK citizens, are finding their way into this The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa theatre? (James Cleverly): The attacks against BBC Persian employees and their families, and threats to an entirely Wendy Morton: Again, the hon. Gentleman is right legitimate media organisation, are unacceptable. We to raise this important point. On armaments, we have raise this harassment regularly with the Iranian export licences in place and a very rigorous process to Government, as well as at the Human Rights Council. deal with applications with regard to any country, and We will continue to defend BBC Persian’s editorial that is always kept under careful and continual review. independence. We most recently raised our concerns We are aware of many media reports that other countries about media freedom in Iran in an E3 Foreign Ministers’ are providing military support, for example, but we letter to Iranian Foreign Minister Zarif on 22 September. absolutely maintain a commitment to encouraging and urging both sides to come back to the table and have the Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for that reply and dialogue that is needed. for sharing the concerns about this serious issue. Will he give us some information on what responses the Foreign Alyn Smith: I gently suggest that there is something Office has received from the Iranian authorities to such for us to follow up in that, because there is a great deal representations? The BBC journalists themselves get of concern that UK armaments and people are finding very little feedback on this issue. their way into this theatre. On a wider point, does the Minister share my concern James Cleverly: Sadly, the Iranian authorities have about Turkey’s increasingly belligerent statements in the yet to provide any kind of justification for their actions wider region? She will be aware of yesterday’s statement that stand up to scrutiny. Their behaviour is indefensible, by the EU High Representative, Josep Borrell, about 149 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 150 the retaking of the Varosha settlement in northern Alan Brown: Last week the Foreign Secretary told the Cyprus, which continues to be illegally occupied. What Foreign Affairs Committee that no one he has met discussions is she having with Ankara in order to strongly thinks that the UK is not a defender of international stress our defence of international law? law. The reality is that a fellow Cabinet member has admitted that the United Kingdom Internal Market Wendy Morton: In terms of Turkey, the Defence Bill breaks international law. The reality on the ground Secretary discussed the conflict during a recent visit to is that 27 EU countries have begun legal proceedings Ankara and again agreed that de-escalation was the against the UK, and in the US both sides of Congress best option for all. I reiterate that, as the Foreign have said that they will not support a Bill that breaks Secretary has said on previous occasions, we urge all the international rules-based order. When will the Foreign external parties and friends of both states to redouble Secretary see reality and admit that the UK is acting their efforts in support for an end to these hostilities like a rogue state? and to refrain from taking actions that risk deepening the crisis. As co-chair of the Minsk group, Russia has a Dominic Raab: No, I do not agree with that. The role in working to end the conflict too. measures in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill are a defensive, precautionary and proportionate, to Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): safeguard the integrity of the UK. I was in Washington Further to the question of Nagorno-Karabakh, obviously recently and had very constructive conversations on the ceasefire is very fragile, and with the use of foreign both sides of the aisle on the hill. fighters from Iraq and Syria, there is a real risk of escalation. What steps are the Government taking to Martin Docherty-Hughes: The way that the Government ensure a return to dialogue, as ultimately only through have used the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill to dialogue can this dreadful conflict come to an end? allow the United Kingdom to abrogate an international Specifically on Turkey and Russia, what urgent discussions treaty in recent weeks has seen the UK take a step away are being carried out in order to try to get them to stop from being a normative power committed to an their arms sales so that that does not increase the international rules-based order. As my constituent Jagtar militarisation and the number of civilians who are Singh Johal now faces his third anniversary in custody tragically being killed in the region? without charge in India, will the Secretary of State at least tell both my constituent and the House how he and Wendy Morton: The hon. Lady makes a very important his Government seek to remind the Republic of India of point reinforcing the need for dialogue. The Foreign its obligations under international law, given that his Secretary issued two statements with Canadian Foreign own Government have so flagrantly disrespected it? Minister Champagne, most recently on 6 October, calling Dominic Raab: I am afraid I just do not accept the for an immediate ceasefire and a return to the negotiating assertion, and I do not accept the equivalence. We have table under the auspices of the OSCE group. On very clear understandings in relation to the positions we 28 September, the Prime Minister spoke to President take in terms of consular access and upholding human Erdog˘an and discussed the recent escalation. On 2 October, rights. We engage with the Indian Government and I spoke to Turkish Deputy Foreign Minister Önal to other Governments right across the world. I have never register concerns at the military escalation. We have had the pushback the hon. Member describes. been engaging with the co-chairs of the Minsk group—the French, the US and Russia. I will continue to reach Patricia Gibson [V]: Further to the question asked by out to my counterparts—both the Armenian and the my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun Azerbaijani Foreign Ministers—to reinforce the UK’s (Alan Brown), can the Secretary of State specifically support for de-escalation and a return to dialogue. outline how and in what ways he believes the United Kingdom International Market Bill strengthens the UK Internal Market Bill: Diplomacy international credibility of the UK, given that it is in breach of international law? Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): What Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Lady. As I have made recent assessment he has made of the potential effect of clear, the Bill is a defensive, precautionary measure to the UK Internal Market Bill on the effectiveness of UK safeguard the integrity of the UK. If the hon. Lady diplomacy. [907443] wants to know what people outside the United Kingdom and the EU say about the United Kingdom when it Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): comes to upholding the international rule of law, perhaps What recent assessment he has made of the potential she would like to listen to Svetlana Tikhanovskaya, the effect of the UK Internal Market Bill on the effectiveness Belarusian opposition leader, who said on 5 October in of UK diplomacy. [907456] an interview: “I am really grateful to the United Kingdom. For them to be so Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): vocal, for them to be so brave, for them to be so strong in their What recent assessment he has made of the potential position—it was all action. The United Kingdom has really effect of the UK Internal Market Bill on the effectiveness shown itself as an example to the whole world.” of UK diplomacy. [907473] That is what they say about the United Kingdom outside the EU. The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): My (Dominic Raab): We continue to work with the EU in right hon. Friend is rightly addressing the rule of law in the Joint Committee to resolve outstanding issues in a particular negotiation. Will he recognise, however, relation to the Northern Ireland protocol. that the negotiations we are conducting around the 151 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 152 world, including with the Japanese Government and the change, but our efforts will pale into insignificance if beginning of the conversation with the comprehensive other nations around the world do not face up to their and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership own responsibilities. What efforts is my hon. Friend will rely on the UK making deals that will endure the making to ensure that everybody plays their part? future? Those deals will only endure truly if the UK holds together and values all parts of this United Kingdom. James Duddridge: It is important that everybody Will he recognise, therefore, that his role is to promote plays their part and that there is collective action. My the voices of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern hon. Friend may be alluding, in part, to China. I Ireland together to make sure all those four nations warmly received China’s commitment—in particular, achieve the best for the whole United Kingdom? its intent to achieve carbon neutrality before 2060. Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have just signed a deal with Japan, and we have signed a continuity deal with South Korea. We are looking at a Transition Period: Cabinet Discussions second one, and we have ambitions for scoping talks in relation to that, so that we can improve in areas such as Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con): What recent discussions data. We are making good progress on Vietnam. That is he has had with Cabinet colleagues on progress in precisely the way in trade negotiations we will represent ensuring that the UK is prepared for the end of the the businesses and consumers of all four nations of the transition period. [907445] United Kingdom, and that is the way we will continue.

Climate Change: International Co-operation Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) progress in ensuring that the UK is prepared for the end (Con): What progress the Government have made through of the transition period. [907448] international co-operation on tackling climate change. [907444] Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con): What recent Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): What progress discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the Government have made through international progress in ensuring that the UK is prepared for the end co-operation on tackling climate change. [907451] of the transition period. [907449]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): What recent Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Duddridge): discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on The Government are fully committed to independent progress in ensuring that the UK is prepared for the end parliamentary scrutiny in this House.The Foreign Secretary of the transition period. [907452] has already announced our commitment to maintaining the Independent Commission for Aid Impact. He has also announced a departmental review to make ICAI Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): What recent discussions even more effective, leveraging what works and producing he has had with Cabinet colleagues on progress in more practical recommendations. This will make scrutiny ensuring that the UK is prepared for the end of the stronger. transition period. [907453]

Stephen Metcalfe [V]: I thank my hon. Friend for his The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, answer. What steps is he is taking to deliver the COP 26 Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): goals when he engages with foreign Governments around It remains our intention and our hope to reach an the world? agreement with the EU, but as a responsible Government, we continue to make extensive preparations for a wide James Duddridge: May I apologise to the House? In range of scenarios. The two Cabinet Committees focused my enthusiasm sharing a joke with you, Mr Speaker, I on EU exit strategy and operations meet regularly to had the wrong page on my briefing and so answered in discuss the Government’s work, to ensure that the UK advance the question tabled by the hon. Member for is prepared for the end of the transition period. Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran). I apologise to the House for my enthusiasm. I thank my constituency near neighbour, my hon. Simon Jupp: I thank the Minister for her response. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock The new Department will no doubt have a busy autumn, (Stephen Metcalfe), for his question. We are committed as it looks to seize the many opportunities that lay to COP 26 through the presidency of G7 next year. We ahead. What discussions have been held with the will be urging Governments to be bold in what they are Department for International Trade to ensure that the hoping to achieve. Indeed, we are co-hosting events Government sing from the same hymn sheet in their with the UN on 12 December to mark the fifth anniversary future trade negotiations on food, animal welfare and of the climate agreement. environmental standards?

Duncan Baker: I will not be thrown off course. Wendy Morton: I can assure my hon. Friend that With the United Kingdom being the fastest country FCDO Ministers are in regular contact with DIT colleagues in the G7 to decarbonise, it is quite apparent that this on a range of trade-related issues. The UK Government Government are leading the world in tackling climate have been consistently clear that we will never sign 153 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 154 a trade deal that would compromise the UK’s high South China Sea environmental protection, animal welfare and food safety standards. All existing food safety provisions will be Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): What recent retained. assessment he has made of the effect on regional security of China’s actions in the South China sea. [907446] Suzanne Webb: Two thirds of my constituents in Stourbridge voted to leave the EU—“Roll on 31 December” The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): On 3 September, is the message I hear loud and clear. Does the Minister I reiterated our concern about reports of militarisation, agree that we must strongly back the Government’s coercion and intimidation in the South China sea, and I negotiating position to deliver a trade deal that takes called on all parties to refrain from activity likely to back control of our money, laws and borders, but that raise tensions. Given the importance we attach to we should not be afraid to fall back on an Australian-style the UN convention on the law of the sea, I also put our arrangement if necessary? comprehensive legal position on the SCS on public record for the first time. Wendy Morton: My hon. Friend asks an important question. We continue to work hard towards reaching Scott Mann: China’s brazen human rights abuses and an agreement with the EU. We want a deal with free its increasingly assertive behaviour internationally are trade provisions similar to those that the EU agreed both deeply disturbing issues. In the light of this behaviour, with Canada, and if that is not possible, we will have a what consideration has the Department given to the trading relationship similar to how Australia trades integrated review of security, defence, development and with the EU. Either way, we will be leaving the single foreign policy to safeguard British friends and interests market and the customs union. in south-east Asia?

Mark Eastwood: The United Kingdom has a proud Nigel Adams: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising history of defending human rights. Does the Minister this. I would remind him that, on 6 October, 39 countries agree that a key benefit of leaving the European Union joined in a statement at the UN Third Committee for our foreign policy is the ability to put in place our expressing deep concern at the human rights situation own independent sanctions regime, allowing us to go in Xinjiang, Hong Kong and Tibet. This growing caucus further on human rights than the EU? willing to speak out reflects the UK’sdiplomatic leadership. The tilt to the Indo-Pacific is a key ambition for our integrated review. It will outline the UK’s intention to Wendy Morton: Yes, the UK will indeed pursue an become a long-term partner to south Asian and Asia-Pacific independent sanctions policy driven by our foreign countries. We are already working to develop closer policy objectives. We established a global human rights partnerships with the region through our bid to achieve sanctions regime on 6 July, which gives us new powers Association of Southeast Asian Nations dialogue to fight those involved in serious human rights abuses. partnership status. The Foreign Secretary visited Hanoi The sanctions we recently imposed on individuals in recently, and that was high on our agenda. We are also Belarus are a good example. Sanctions are best delivered, keen to pursue our accession to the comprehensive and though, through collective action, and we will continue progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership. to work with EU and other international partners. President of Belarus Simon Baynes: Does the Minister agree that the end of the transition period will herald a global Britain with more freedom to follow our own path in the world, to Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What comparative the benefit of my constituents in Clwyd South? assessment he has made of the ability of the (a) UK and (b) EU to impose sanctions on the President of Belarus. [907447] Wendy Morton: Yes. At the end of this year, the process of transition will be complete, and we will recover our economic and political independence. That The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth is why we did not extend the transition period. We need and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State to be able to design our own rules in our best interests, (Dominic Raab): The UK does not accept the results of without the constraints of following the EU. the rigged presidential election in Belarus. We have worked with our international partners to promote a peaceful resolution. We have condemned the actions of Lee Anderson: The UK now has a new role outside the Belarusian authorities, and we hold those responsible the EU as global Britain. Will my hon. Friend advise for human rights abuses to account. the people of Ashfield what the FCDO’s priorities should be in the future? Michael Fabricant [V]: Everybody’sfavourite continental politician Guy Verhofstadt expressed his huge frustration Wendy Morton: The Government’s integrated review, with the European Union recently, surprisingly enough, which is ongoing, will define the UK’s role in the world when he said that unlike the United Kingdom and and the longer-term strategic aims for our national Canada, which have imposed sanctions on Belarus for security and foreign policy following our departure the very reason that my right hon. Friend the Foreign from the European Union. We are committed to the Secretary has just said, the European Union has been UK being a force for good in the world, defending open unable to do so because of the unanimity rules. What societies, free trade, democracy and human rights. assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the EU 155 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 156 foreign policy ability to impose things such as sanctions, here, and generating jobs and growth for the UK economy. and does he share my relief that the United Kingdom The GREAT challenge fund also promotes Welsh business has now left the EU? and culture throughout the world. In the last financial year, more than 40 projects were promoting the devolved Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend. He makes a nations, including Wales. powerful point about the agility and the autonomy that we have with our new Magnitsky sanctions regime, and Jonathan Edwards: Diolch yn fawr, Mr Speaker. For also some of the latitude we will have now we have left some bizarre reason, the Conservative party in Wales is the EU. Equally, I co-ordinate closely with our European pledging to scrap the Welsh Government’s Department partners. He is right to say that the UK, with Canada, for International Relations and Development, yet the proceeded first, on 29 September, to impose targeted Federation of Small Businesses is calling for a greater sanctions on Lukashenko’s son and six other senior international footprint by the Welsh Government. Will Belarusian officials. I can, though, reassure my hon. the Minister support the Welsh Government to expand Friend that the EU has followed our lead and, at the their independent international presence, since many in latest Foreign Affairs Council, announced that it will Wales have little faith that so-called global Britain will now follow that lead and impose sanctions on Lukashenko. even acknowledge the existence of Wales as a nation?

ASEAN Countries: UK Relations Wendy Morton: I reiterate our commitment to the work that we do to promote the UK as one whole Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): What UK—we are much bigger as one UK than in our parts. diplomatic steps he is taking to strengthen UK relations The Department for International Trade promotes British with ASEAN countries. [907450] trade and investment across the world, and we are engaging regularly with the Welsh Government on their The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth international offer to businesses in the devolved nations. and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State The Department promotes capital projects in Wales to (Dominic Raab): I visited Vietnam last month, where we international investors, such as Cardiff’s Central Quay, held the first UK-ASEAN Foreign Ministers meeting, and the new Shaping Swansea regeneration project. discussing collaboration on covid, the green economic recovery and the UK’s application for dialogue partner Topical Questions status with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. [907494] Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): Mrs Wheeler: I thank my right hon. Friend for his If he will make a statement on his departmental answer so far. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking responsibilities. to support new growth markets in the ASEAN region, such as Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, to ensure that The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth the UK economy and UK businesses, especially South and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State Derbyshire firms, feel the full benefit of global Britain? (Dominic Raab): Since the last oral questions, I have hosted my German and French counterparts at Chevening Dominic Raab: First, I must congratulate my hon. to discuss Iran and Belarus. I visited Washington where Friend on her appointment as trade envoy for Cambodia, I met Vice-President Pence, Secretary of State Pompeo, Laos and Vietnam. She will know that UK-ASEAN and others, to discuss the free trade agreement and a trade is already worth over £40 billion in 2019. There whole range of foreign policy issues. In late September I are huge opportunities to strengthen that. The International visited South Korea and Vietnam to forge closer Trade Secretary was meeting ASEAN Economic and partnerships and discuss our application for ASEAN Trade Ministers last month. I have been out to ASEAN dialogue partner status. to talk about our partner dialogue status. We also have a broader ambition to join the comprehensive and Jack Brereton: With tensions increasing in the China- progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership. Pakistan-India border area, will my right hon. Friend All that, through our Indo-Pacific tilt, will increase confirm that the Government are willing to redouble opportunities for businesses and consumers in her efforts to resolve the long-standing conflict in Jammu constituency and across the whole United Kingdom. and Kashmir?

Wales and Welsh Businesses Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend takes a close interest in this issue, and he will know that India and Pakistan Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) are both long-standing and important friends of the (Ind): What steps he is taking to promote (a) Wales and United Kingdom. We have encouraged, and continue to (b) Welsh businesses internationally. [907457] encourage, both sides to engage in the dialogue that is necessary to find a lasting diplomatic solution to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, situation in Kashmir, and to maintain regional stability. Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Wendy Morton): It is, of course, ultimately for India and Pakistan to find The FCDO works in partnership with the Department a lasting political resolution, taking into account the for International Trade, the office of the Secretary of wider issues of the people of Kashmir. State for Wales, and the Welsh Government, to promote Wales internationally. The GREAT Britain campaign, Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary which is actively supported by our diplomatic posts has said that the Chinese Government must accept overseas, showcases the very best of the whole UK, the responsibilities that come with being a leading encouraging the world to visit, study, and do business member of the international community, and he has 157 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 158 rightly highlighted the egregious human rights abuses [907495] Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): The against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Since July, he has merger of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and apparently been gathering evidence to impose targeted the Department for International Development is a sanctions against the officials involved, but so far we welcome acceptance that the UK’s outward-facing have seen very little action. Today China is standing to Departments should merge to best employ all the tools be elected to the UN Human Rights Council. While I at our disposal. I detect, however, a concerning trend in welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s willingness to speak the new FCDO for diplomacy and development to be out about this issue, surely, today of all days, we should regarded as separate and equal. Assimilating DFID’s take a clear moral stance and show that the UK has obtuse culture into King Charles Street is dangerous more than words at our disposal. Will he confirm that and will cripple the Foreign Office’s ability to achieve its we will oppose China taking a seat on that council? objectives. We must, above all, regard development as a foreign policy tool. Can the Foreign Secretary assure the House that the current reform programme at the Dominic Raab: I suspect the hon. Lady will know that Foreign Office ensures that our development programme the UK has a long practice, under successive Governments, supports our diplomatic activities, rather than transcends of not commenting on voting in UN elections that are and undermines them? conducted by secret ballot—[Interruption.] Never under a Labour Government: the hon. Member for Aberavon Dominic Raab: I reassure my hon. Friend that the (Stephen Kinnock) is wrong. The hon. Lady and I raison d’être of the merger is to bring together our aid stand in total solidarity on the point of principle. We clout and heft with our diplomatic reach and muscle. If have unequivocally made clear to China our grave concern he looks at the visit I made to the Occupied Palestinian about Xinjiang. On 6 October, since we last met, the Territories, he will see the support we provided for the UK joined 38 other countries in the UN Third Committee Palestinians in dealing with covid alongside our diplomatic to call on China to allow immediate and unfettered support for a two-state solution; if he looks at the access to independent UN observers. situation in Yemen, he will see that we are doing the same; and he will see the same in our response to Lisa Nandy: May I say to the Foreign Secretary, who the explosion in the port of Beirut. I think he will find is a former human rights lawyer, that it is quite desperate that we are practising what we preach, which brings and a sign of our diminished influence in the world together the aid—taxpayers’money—with our diplomatic that the UK is not willing to take a stance on this muscle to make a real difference on the ground. important issue? We are deeply concerned about our relations with the rest of the world. Whether it is the [907498] Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): covid vaccine, climate change, the Iran deal, west bank Will the Foreign Secretary tell us what representations annexation, NATO or Scotch whisky, the Government the Government have made to the Turkish authorities appear to have no influence at all in Washington at the over their latest silencing of political opposition, with moment when we most need it. We are told that they the arrest of 82 members and office bearers of the are now scrambling to repair the damage to relations Peoples’Democratic Party,the HDP? Do the Government with Joe Biden and his team. There is no greater indication share the view of many of us that those actions are, of why that matters than the case of Harry Dunn. In once again, a fundamental violation of human rights July, the Foreign Secretary told the House he had against the Kurdish population? reached an agreement with the US about immunity arrangements for Croughton annex. His repeated Dominic Raab: As the hon. Gentleman will know, refusal to publish that agreement has fuelled the family’s Turkey is a close NATO ally, but that has never stopped anguish and underlined the widespread belief that his us from raising human rights across the whole range. Department has chosen to side with the US Government We will obviously continue to do so as a part of our over its own citizens. Why does he believe that neither partnership. Parliament nor the family of Harry Dunn should see the small print of this important agreement with the [907496] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: United States? The Prime Minister set this Thursday as the deadline for achieving a comprehensive free trade agreement with the European Union. Foreign Secretary, what is Dominic Raab: Wedid indeed change the arrangements, the likelihood that on Thursday evening you will be exactly as I undertook to the family and to the House. popping champagne corks? We also issued a written ministerial statement, which set out the terms. When the Labour party was in government, Dominic Raab: We have a European Council this at two points when they reviewed the arrangements for week. The scope and the prospects for a deal are there. I Croughton, they did not make a WMS and they did not am hopeful that we can close the gap, but ultimately it put into the public domain the memorandum of will require the same good will, the same pragmatism understanding. It has been standard practice not to do and the same flexibility on the EU side that the United so and I think the hon. Lady knows that. Kingdom and this Prime Minister have shown.

Mr Speaker: I am going to say to both Front Benchers [907499] Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): once again that from today onwards—just a warning—I The reputation and effectiveness of DFID was built on will be stopping questions that are too long. Topicals strong scrutiny within Parliament. What progress has are meant to be short and punchy for the benefit of been made on establishing a Select Committee on everyone. I have got to get through a list. Please, let us official development assistance to review spending and help to make sure that other hon. Members get on it. ensure that every penny goes where it needs to reach? 159 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 160

Dominic Raab: I share the hon. Lady’s view about the [907505] Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The importance of scrutiny. We have made clear our Iranian regime routinely commits human rights atrocities commitment to not just maintain but strengthen the and abuses against its people, with, recently, the execution Independent Commission for Aid Impact. Select there of Navid Afkari. It plays an appalling role in the Committees of the House are ultimately a matter for destabilisation of the whole region. Does the Foreign the usual channels and for the House, but we will make Secretary not think that the UK should be more robustly sure that the FCDO is willing to be scrutinised however condemning that regime and the pernicious role that it the House decides. plays across the middle east and against its own people?

[907497] Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Dominic Raab: I agree with the hon. Member about I warmly welcome the announcement yesterday that the the importance of raising human rights. The most UK and Kenya will jointly host next year’s replenishment recent thing we did, with my French and German of the Global Partnership for Education. May I urge counterparts as E3, was démarche Tehran on the human the Foreign Secretary, when we hold the G7 presidency rights situation, including not only the case that he next year, to put the campaign for 12 years of quality raises but the fate and arbitrary detention of the UK education as a top priority? dual nationals held in Iran.

Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend and pay [907501] AlecShelbrooke (ElmetandRothwell)(Con)[V]: tribute to her work in government; I know her commitment What assessment has my right hon. Friend’s Department on this issue. She will know that since 2015, the UK has made of the potential shifting geopolitical centre of supported 8 million girls to gain a decent education. gravity on natural resources as the world moves from oil What is important is not just the number, but the vehicles to electric vehicles? quality of education. Our global objective is to help 40 million girls into a decent education. That is a key focus of our use of ODA—this touches on the point Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend makes a good about merging DFID and the Foreign Office—and it is point about the shifting economics and the shifting also one of our top priorities for 2021, both with the geopolitical centre of gravity.We have more co-operation summit that she mentioned and our G7 presidency. with South America, as well as other regions, and that will be crucial if we are to shift the dial on climate change. Earlier this week I had a strategic dialogue with [907502] Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): I my Brazilian opposite number that was very much have been contacted by constituents who are concerned about not only the issues he raises but tackling deforestation that covid-19 has resulted in an increase in the persecution and sustainable commodity use. of Christians across the world, with reports that Christians are being denied food aid, access to personal protective equipment and in some places are even being blamed [907509] Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) for the virus. What steps are the Government taking to (Lab/Co-op): Eighty-two arrest warrants against sitting ensure that Christians and other religious minorities do and former mayors; 200 members of the pro-Kurdish not face additional discrimination in the distribution of and pro-peace HDP party currently in detention; and aid because of their faith? now even MPs of the CHP, the Republican People’s party and modern founding party of Turkey, arrested— what is the Government’s view on this undermining of Dominic Raab: I absolutely agree with the concern democracy in Turkey, and how has the Foreign Secretary that the hon. Lady has raised. Bringing ODA into the expressed it to our Turkish allies? FCDO gives us the opportunity to raise these issues diplomatically, as well as to look very carefully at our aid budget. We are a member of the International Dominic Raab: Turkey is a close partner and a strategic Religious Freedom Alliance. We are looking to co-host ally in NATO and has Council of Europe obligations. one of the next summits, whether that is next year or the We raise the whole suite of international obligations following year, depending on covid, and the issue that that apply as a matter both of customary international she raises will be very much at the top of our agenda. law, and of the conventions that Turkey itself has signed up to. [907500] Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): Given the wider destabilising activities of Iran in the middle [907503] Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) [V]: What eastern region, what steps has my right hon. Friend diplomatic efforts has my right hon. Friend engaged in taken to consider the use of sanctions against it, and personally to work with China to ensure success in next what discussions has he had with our US ally? year’s CBD15 and COP26 conferences on global biodiversity and climate? The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa (James Cleverly): We continue to hold Iran to account Dominic Raab: That is a good example for all the for its destabilising activity in the region. We currently other challenges we have; it is an area where we must have over 200 EU sanctions listings in place against work with China if we are going to shift the dial on Iran, including against the Islamic Revolutionary Guard climate change. China is the largest emitter, but also the Corps in its entirety. My right hon. Friend the Foreign largest investor in renewables. My right hon. Friend will Secretary and FCDO officials take every opportunity have seen the welcome recent commitment by China to to discuss Iran with our US counterparts. As part of be carbon neutral by 2060. In that and other areas— this regular dialogue, the Foreign Secretary last spoke including, for example, the recent UN General Assembly to Secretary Pompeo on 16 September. leaders’ pledge for nature on biodiversity, co-led by the 161 Oral Answers 13 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 162

UK—we want to work with China. We will not persuade Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): others to step up to the plate unless we can shift the dial Saudi Arabia has been an ally of ours against terrorism with China. for some time. Foremost among Saudis, the erstwhile crown prince Muhammad bin Nayef was a great friend [907510] Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Brightside and of this country. He has now disappeared from public Hillsborough) (Lab): Last month, the remote village of life, with great concerns over his safety. Will the Foreign Washah in northern Yemen was hit by an airstrike Secretary make plain the importance of Prince bin carried out by the Saudi-led coalition, killing three Nayef’s safety to the United Kingdom Government? women and six children. This is yet another breach of international human rights laws in that area. When Dominic Raab: I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend will the Government step up to their international for all the work that he has done in this area. We will of responsibilities and properly hold Saudi Arabia to account course look very carefully at the case he raises, and I for its actions in Yemen, done in the name of the understand the point that he makes. UK-supported coalition? Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Canada James Cleverly: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an and the Netherlands have formally joined the International important strategic partner, and we recognise its right Court of Justice case, led by Gambia, on the genocide to defend itself against attack from parties within Yemen. against the Rohingya people by the Myanmar Government. The UK has a stringent arms control regime, and it is Can the Foreign Secretary explain why the UK used whenever we work with the Kingdom of Saudi Government, despite being a penholder on the UN Arabia in terms of arms trade with them. Security Council, for instance, in relation to Burma, have not done so, and when he plans to change that? Will he meet me and my co-chair of the all-party [907504] Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con): I was pleased parliamentary group on the rights of the Rohingya to to hear the Foreign Secretary reaffirm the important discuss this matter further? role of the BBC World Service for UK soft power and influence for good when he appeared in front of the Dominic Raab: We have a Commonwealth Foreign Foreign Affairs Committee recently. What consideration Ministers’ meeting coming up, where we will be looking has the Department given to guaranteeing direct funding at the further amount of support we are providing to for the World Service, as the BBC looks at new funding ease the humanitarian plight of the Rohingya. We have models? looked at the ICJ proceedings and will continue to keep those under close review. Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend brings the passion for journalism that he had outside this House to the core of Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. this issue. He is right to say that we value the role of the Members participating in this item of business and the BBC World Service in projecting UK soft power around safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am the world, and I will look very carefully at future suspending the House for three minutes. funding in the context of the spending review. 12.34 pm Mr Speaker: I call Carla Lockhart. Not here. Sitting suspended. 163 13 OCTOBER 2020 164

Speaker’s Statement Public Health Restrictions: Government Economic Support 12.37 pm Mr Speaker: I have a short statement to make about 12.38 pm Select Committees. On Tuesday 24 March the House Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op) ( passed an order allowing for virtual participation in Urgent To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Select Committee meetings and giving Chairs associated Question): he will make a statement on economic support available powers to make reports. I was given the power under to individuals and businesses in areas of the country the order to extend it if necessary. On Wednesday subject to additional public health restrictions. 22 July I announced an extension until Friday 30 October. I can notify the House today that I am now further The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): extending the order until Friday 22 January. Yesterday, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor set out further measures to support local authorities through the crisis. On Friday, the Chancellor set out how we will support jobs in every part of the UK through an extension of the job support scheme, and these announcements build on the Chancellor’s September statement on the winter economic plan. Throughout the pandemic the economic policy focus has been clear—to save jobs. Last month, we set out our plans to help viable businesses that can open through the job support scheme. However, businesses that are required to close due to coronavirus restrictions will also need our help. On Friday, the Chancellor announced the expansion of the job support scheme.Where coronavirus restrictions legally require business premises to close, we will pay up to two thirds of an employee’s salary, up to £2,100 a month, if they cannot work for a week or more. The scheme is nationwide and will run for six months. In addition, businesses in England required to close will be eligible for a non-repayable cash grant of up to £3,000 a month. This can be used for any business costs. On Friday the Chancellor and I agreed with the First Minister of Wales, the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland and the Finance Minister of Scotland on this additional package of support. We have now also guaranteed an extra £1.3 billion of funding to the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Administrations if they decide to do something similar, bringing total guaranteed Barnett funding for this year to £14 billion. In addition, as announced yesterday, we are providing local authorities in England with around £1 billion to protect vital services, and up to £500 million for local authorities at high or very high risk. These measures build on the Government’s economic package, one of the most generous in the world, and underline our unwavering commitment to the people of this country. Anneliese Dodds: Just over a month ago the Conservatives passed a motion in the House stating that “any deviation from this Government’s proposed plan will cause damage to the United Kingdom economy.” The first deviation came two weeks later when the Chancellor announced his sink-or-swim job support scheme, design faults in which are already leading to substantial and unnecessary job losses. The second deviation came as a belated response to the imposition of localised restrictions announced on television last Friday, with further measures announced yesterday—yet Leicester,for example, has been under localised restrictions for over 100 days. The Chancellor told us to learn our new limits as we go. His handling of the economic crisis is testing patience to its limits, especially the patience of those whose jobs are threatened. 165 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 166 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support The Government must answer many critical questions, that in mind, what scientific evidence has the Treasury but here are just three: first, why will local areas be received that closing pubs at 10 pm gets that balance provided with support for test, trace and isolate only right? once they are already in tier 3? This is indefensible. Secondly, there is £1.3 billion-worth of unspent local Steve Barclay: We have to balance the evidence that grants. Why will not the Government allow this money the Government receive from a range of quarters. My to be used to support local businesses in affected areas? right hon. Friend will recall that when the initial advice Thirdly, why are workers in closed businesses expected from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies to face poverty as a result of the businesses they work was put forward, the Government came forward with a for doing the right thing? range of measures, such as the rule of six and the curfew. Indeed, if we look at the projections that were Steve Barclay: It is slightly odd that Opposition Front made at that time, we see that we could potentially have Benchers talk about deviation when their position has had 49,000 or so daily cases by 14 October when in deviated as much as it has, not least on the curfew, actual fact the figure on that date was 12,872. That which they said they would support yet refused to. indicates the fact that the package of measures put in place by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the On the hon. Lady’s points of substance, the package Exchequer have had an influence. However, listening to of support announced by the Chancellor and Prime the SAGE advice, it is recognised that we need to go Minister did support local authorities with an additional further and that is why the tiered approach has been set £1 billion, as I said in my opening remarks, plus a out. further £500 million to address trace and trace locally, reflecting the fact that the Government are listening to local leaders and bringing forward responses. We saw Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and that with the additional funding allocated to Merseyside Strathspey) (SNP): The Chancellor of the Exchequer is and to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—again proving exactly what Tory values are with this dogged reflecting our listening in conversations with the First determination to return to 1980s levels of unemployment. Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Switching away from the rhetoric of whatever it takes to hard choices exposes the fact that protecting jobs was The hon. Lady makes a fair point about underspends an empty promise even before the end of furlough. He that has been made by a number of colleagues. She is is risking more than 60,000 jobs in Scotland alone. The right to point to the sheer extent of support that we Institute for Fiscal Studies is clear. It says: have offered, including the grants of £10,000 and £25,000. “Despite the claim by Chancellor Rishi Sunak last week To deliver them at pace, they were allocated on the that he would ‘always balance the books’, this will not estimations that we had. As a result, the actual spend happen, and he would be most unwise to try.” that has been required has led to some local authorities Mass unemployment is a terrible policy, so will the having very big underspends and others not. If we were Minister urge his boss to change course even at this late to say that the authorities where the estimates were stage and extend furlough to save jobs, to use returned incorrect should benefit disproportionately, we would moneys to help those who have been excluded and to be accused of treating some unfairly compared with listen to the SNP demands for an £80 billion stimulus others. We met the need that was addressed at that time package? Will he listen to the nearly 70% of the Scottish through the awards. public who want financial powers devolved to Scotland, It is right from a fiscal point of view that the underspends or are the Government going just simply to plough are returned because they are surplus to the requirement ahead ignoring Scotland’s needs and further proving on which they were allocated. In last week’s urgent that Scotland needs the powers of independence? question issues were raised by Merseyside Members, and ministerial colleagues engaged, listened and the Steve Barclay: It is a slightly odd premise to say that funding for Merseyside more than doubled per head. the Conservative Government are not supporting the It is a slightly odd line of attack for the Opposition to response when we have spent more than £200 billion as say that we should not bring back underspends where part of that response, when we are currently supporting they met their need but the estimations were inaccurate, nearly half a million jobs in Scotland, when 8.9 million yet not use the money to respond to the legitimate needs people across the United Kingdom have benefited from of areas such as Merseyside and elsewhere that are the furlough scheme and more than half of those are being moved into tier 3. back in their jobs, and when more than 65,000 businesses in Scotland have benefited from our loan scheme. However, the hon. Gentleman is right in one aspect of his question. Mr Speaker: Order. Can I help the Minister? He is This Government are true to Conservative values and meant to be speaking through the Chair and not to the those are the values of the Union. It is through the other end of the Chamber, and I hope that we can work shared broad shoulders that we are able to put in place together on this. Has he finished the answer to that the fiscal package of support that has enabled us to question? protect as many jobs in Scotland and around the UK as we have. Steve Barclay indicated assent. Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): My right hon. Surely the Minister will recognise that the Welsh Friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have done Government face the same task as UK Ministers in a great deal to support the economy, but there has to be needing to manage their budget in the face of the a careful balance struck between protecting against the unprecedented pressures brought about by the pandemic. virus and avoiding further economic destruction. With That task is made harder by the lack of transparency 167 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 168 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support [Gerald Jones] Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman raises a legitimate concern that is shared across the House. It is wrong for from the UK Treasury. We know that the IFS has called companies to act in that way. One purpose of the on the UK Treasury to follow Wales’example in publishing furlough is to retain that link between the labour market, budget adjustments in full so that we know what the person and their job. The furlough bonus is designed announcements apply to Wales and how much budget is to strengthen that link, so people are brought back. He available. Will the Minister today agree to publish the takes a constructive approach to these issues and I am information around the decisions so that we have happy to work with him in the weeks and months transparency and Welsh Ministers can make decisions ahead, because this is a practice that all of us in the with confidence? House would condemn. The schemes we have designed try to retain the link with the worker to prevent that sort Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman talks about of practice. transparency for the Welsh Government. The Chancellor had a call last Friday, which I joined, with the First Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): Stockton South Minister of Wales as part of our transparency with the has some of the best bars, pubs, restaurants and breweries Welsh Government, so it is slightly odd to say that we in the country, and many play an important role at the are not being transparent. However, the hon. Gentleman heart of the community. So far, they have benefited is right that there are issues that need to be managed by from a fantastic package of support, but the tier 2 the devolved Administrations and the concern he sets restrictions pose a huge challenge. What will the out is exactly why we provided the upfront guarantee on Government do to protect jobs and ensure that we do Barnett consequentials. We recognise that, in order that not hospitalise our hospitality sector? the Welsh Government can make decisions in advance of knowing what the Barnett consequentials are, it is important to give a forward-looking guarantee on that. Steve Barclay: It is about getting the right balance That is why we gave the additional guarantee of £1.3 billion because, ultimately, the most damaging thing for those to the devolved Administrations, including the Welsh pubs in tier 2 would be a further escalation of the virus Government, as a response to the point that he raises. and a situation in which they faced further restrictions. We have sought to ensure, first, that they can continue trading through tier 2, while having alongside the package Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): A tenth of pubs of support for jobs, which the Chancellor set out in our have not reopened since lockdown in March while two winter plan to back those jobs with Government support, thirds were already trading at a loss, even before restricted as well as a cash flow package. Cash flow will remain a opening times, mandatory table service and the new key challenge as we go through the winter crisis, which restrictions announced yesterday. Will my right hon. is why we have such an extensive package supporting Friend look at the support that is available for pubs that cash flow. are not yet compelled to close, but are legally prevented from operating economically, and in particular state aid limits that threaten to prevent 10,000 pubs from receiving Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I am sure the support they need? Without that support, many the Minister was as concerned as me to hear reports thousands of pubs will close their doors and never that those people with businesses who take out bounce reopen. back loans to help them to follow the Government rules and survive this economic crisis—not just in their interest, Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is a champion of the but in all our interests—could face action up to and pub sector and he speaks to the fact that it faces many including repossession of their home if they struggle to challenges, but that is why we have been trying to strike repay those loans. Will he reassure not just the House, a balance. Some would say the curfew is insufficient, but people across the country,including in my constituency but part of it is about recognising the very real pressures of Edinburgh West, that this Government will not allow on the pub sector that he speaks to. Other colleagues in that misery to be heaped on the misery already being the House sometimes talk of the Sweden model but, as suffered? he will know, in Sweden the 2-metre rule is often more difficult for the hospitality sector and the pubs to adjust Steve Barclay: The very favourable terms of the bounce to. Ultimately, that is why the Chancellor set out the back loans were designed to deliver with speed. This wider package of support, recognising the concerns he was an initial challenge of the coronavirus business speaks of with the tax deferrals, the loans, the business interruption loan scheme; we received feedback from rate support and the measures on VAT, which are debate in the House and elsewhere that the speed was targeted at the sector because of the very real concerns not there, so that was part of the design for the bounce he correctly articulates. back loans.Another part of the design was the Government guarantee to get that credit to people. We have extended Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): My Aberavon access to that scheme and the possible repayment period, constituents are increasingly concerned about the practice so that issue should not be crystallising at this point. of firing then re-hiring, whereby unscrupulous employers Clearly we need to look at the risk with regard to are using the pandemic as a cover to sack their employees repayments. As I said to the hon. Member for Aberavon and then re-hire them on inferior terms and conditions. (Stephen Kinnock), I am happy to work with colleagues What steps are the Government taking to tackle this around the House, but the hon. Lady will be well aware completely unacceptable practice and to exclude firms of the package of measures that we have put in place to that engage in these behaviours from Government protect people vis-à-vis their mortgage and to protect support schemes? renters from eviction. 169 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 170 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): Is there any specific Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend raises an important evidence that swimming pools and gyms are centres for point. There is a strong interplay between the workforce covid transmission? Has any research been done into challenges and the financial viability of the care home rising obesity and unfitness levels, and has any research sector. One of the biggest risk factors is transmission as been done into rising unemployment caused by the a result of staff, particularly agency staff, moving between closure of gyms and pools that is now happening in care homes. He will know—and I know from my time as parts of the UK? a Health Minister—that the financial pressures of that sector are not new pressures from this covid period; they are of long standing. The first tier of the £3.7 billion Steve Barclay: In some ways, that is slightly more of a package of support that was initially allocated to local Health question than a Treasury question, but I recognise authorities was particularly directed at the adult social that there is read-across from those businesses into the care sector. My hon. Friend will be aware that we are economy. In short, the opinion of the chief medical now on the second tranche of infection control funding officer and the chief scientific officer is that those to support these sectors. He speaks to a very real issue, businesses do carry significantly more risk, which is why which we are monitoring closely, and which is at the they have been harder hit in the guidance that has been heart of how we address staff transfers between care issued. The package of support that the Chancellor set homes and the infection risk that such transfers pose. out recognises that businesses that are closed need additional support, which is why the measures announced Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor yesterday The Government have said that schools will be among spoke exactly to the issue of businesses that have been the last to close under any covid restrictions or lockdowns. closed due to the guidelines. Headteachers in my constituency have told me that they are having to pay additional costs for cleaning to keep Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The wisdom schools safe. When will the Government announce and necessity of some of the restrictions introduced additional funding for schools, so that this money does yesterday have been questioned by leaders of cities in not come out of schools’ budgets, risking deficit for the north of England, by businesses and by the workers them? who are going to be affected, so it is right that the Government should introduce a package of support for Steve Barclay: As the Minister responsible for businesses that are forced to close. However, there are Government spending on behalf of the Chancellor, I many businesses that have not been instructed to close, would want to look closely at why the school in the hon. but which will be forced to because of the restrictions Gentleman’sconstituency is saying that that very significant placed on them. For example, the hospitality industry uplift in funding for schools last year does not appear to faces curfews, restrictions on table numbers and on who be reaching the frontline. The education funding settlement can sit at tables, and so on. How does this package of in the 2019 spending round should more than cover the support assure those businesses that they are not going cleaning costs. I will happily look at that, but if he looks to be killed off by the restrictions that have been placed at the funding settlement allocated in SR19, I think he on them? They have been put in the firing line, yet seem will accept that it was a very generous one. to have been left without any level of support at all, given the conditions attached to this economic package. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is not surprising that more and more Members are calling for more Government support, because the Government Steve Barclay: The right hon. Gentleman speaks to are forcing more and more businesses, particularly in an important issue, which was at the heart of the job the hospitality sector,out of business. The Chief Secretary support scheme’s design: recognising businesses that are says that his priority is to help business. The best way not in closure, but which have difficulty bringing people to help businesses is to let them get on and do business. back full time. The scheme provides support. The employer We are going bankrupt as a nation—there will not be pays the first third, and the remaining amount is split the money to pay for the NHS or pensions. What is the three ways, with the Government supporting. Additionally, Treasury doing to row back against other parts of the there is the wider package of measures, including support Government and insist that we must allow British business to local authorities to get better compliance, which is in to operate? He did not answer the question from the the interests of businesses.The £1 billion to local authorities, Chairman of the Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the £500 million for local test and trace services, the the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride)—what is business loans and the tax deferrals are all targeted at the scientific evidence for pubs closing at 10 o’clock? Is the sector that the right hon. Gentleman is talking he leading the fight to help Britain to stay in business? about: businesses that can still trade and are not closed, but which do face further pressure. The winter plan sets out that support. Steve Barclay: With respect, I did answer it. I pointed to the projection given by the chief medical officer and chief scientific adviser at that time, the SAGE guidance Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): and the fact that the package of measures put in place Care homes across the country are struggling to survive, by the Prime Minister has resulted in a lower infection and the areas with greater restrictions are particularly risk. The CMO and others would recognise that this is a dealing with unprecedented levels of vacancies. What range of measures. My right hon. Friend says that the are the Government doing to support those vacancies Government have gone too far and that there is no and prevent the forced closure of care homes, which evidence for the curfew. The tenor of most of the would in turn lead to many thousands of vulnerable questions one gets is that we have not moved far enough people being rehoused or moved out across the community? and should be taking more drastic actions. That speaks 171 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 172 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support [Steve Barclay] Steve Barclay: If the hon. Lady looks at international comparators, she will see that the Government’s package to the fact that this is a balanced judgment. One needs of support—more than £200 billion—is generous. I to look at the range of measures we are taking, and that point her to the job support scheme, for example. A is what I would refer him to. number of colleagues across the House question whether the 67% is sufficient, but the point is that it is dynamic Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ in conjunction with the additional funding that has Co-op): My constituents in Cardiff South and Penarth been put into welfare. [Interruption.] If the hon. Lady and the Vale of Glamorgan are under a local lockdown lets me answer the question, she will hear that I am and dealing with the economic pressures that that brings. talking about the support for people in businesses that Does the Chief Secretary agree that it is deeply have closed, which is an issue that all colleagues across disappointing that major local employers such as British the House take very seriously. [Interruption.] Well, that Gas/Centrica are engaging in the type of “fire and applies to regional equality. Opposition Members may rehire” tactics that we have seen others try to use, such not like the answer, but the question was: how does the as British Airways? What message does he have for the UK compare with international comparators. I am chief executive of British Gas/Centrica about those pointing to the fact that the package of measures put in measures, which I believe are completely unacceptable place—the furlough at 80% for eight months—was in the current climate? much more generous than that of most other countries. The business support package, including business rents, Steve Barclay: I do not think it is acceptable to have a tax deferrals, loans, such as the bounce back loans and “fire and rehire”culture. The hon. Member for Aberavon help to grow loans—we can go through the full list—bears (Stephen Kinnock) put it very well in his question, and I comparison. The question over the past 24 hours is echo those sentiments. This is an area of common whether the latest measures bear international comparison. ground across the House. The package of measures we The point I was making is that if one looks at the have put in place is to retain the link between a worker French, German, Italian and other schemes, the two and their business, and that is very much the Government’s thirds support for those businesses that are closed, approach. coupled with a dynamic relationship with the support on universal credit does bear favourable comparison Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): My right hon. with those, which is why I stand by my comments that, Friend may remember that I raised with him last week internationally, the UK has a world-leading package. the issue of tourism businesses in north Wales, which have been severely impacted by the decision of the Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con) [V]: Welsh Government to impose movement restrictions. Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member Many of those businesses now face the prospect of for Dudley South (Mike Wood) and the right hon. closure, but they are not being required to close by the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), the tier 2 Government, and there is little help being offered by the restrictions on social mixing are cutting the legs away Welsh Government. The expansion of the job support from the hospitality industry. Equally, even in tier 3, scheme last week was welcome, but that only benefits restaurants will not necessarily be closed, but the fact businesses that have been required to close by the relevant remains that people are just not going to them. May I Administration. What further support can Her Majesty’s implore my right hon. Friend to extend the £3,000 grant Government offer to Welsh tourism businesses, which to all hospitality venues in tiers 2 and 3 regardless of are so badly affected by the current state of affairs? whether they are told to close? The industry is dying, Steve Barclay: Among the range of measures that we because people are trying to do the right thing and not have put in place as support, one speaks directly to my mix. Chief Secretary, the industries are open in name right hon. Friend’s issue, which is the rent support of up only. Please look at extending the available help before to £3,000 for businesses that are forced to close. The Welsh the industry is destroyed. Government can then use Barnett consequential funding to support businesses and to design a scheme as they see Steve Barclay: I hear the concerns of my right hon. fit, but it is for the Welsh Government to design those Friend, but there is a balance that needs to be struck schemes, not the UK Government. That is what devolution between the comprehensive nature and the fiscal cost of entails. What we have done through the comprehensive the range of packages that we have put in place and the package of measures that we have put in place is ensure measures that we have taken to control the virus. The that there is Barnett consequential funding to allow the balance that we have struck, in line with the advice that Welsh Government to put that support in place. we have received, is about balancing how we control the virus with the wider implications not only for the economy, Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) but for non-covid health issues as well. That is the (Lab): Like infectious diseases of the past, covid is a balance that we are striking. Of course it is attractive disease of poverty. Various indicators, including cuts to for him to say that we should keep spending more local authority funding, show that regional inequalities and more, but we have already committed more than have been exacerbated over the past decade. Contrary £200 billion. to the Minister’s earlier remarks about the generosity of the packages to local authorities, only 10% of costs Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Prime associated with the pandemic have been reimbursed by Minister has been clear that the Government’s response the Government. What is the Minister’s assessment of to the covid crisis will follow the science. Last night, on the actual impact that the recent announcement of a conference call with Professor Stephen Powys, the measures have had on the Government’s ambition to medical director for England, the hon. Member for level up? Windsor (Adam Afriyie) and my hon. Friend the Member 173 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 174 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) asked about the science the Global Travel Taskforce, which underscores the behind the 10 pm curfew on pubs and restaurants. Government’s commitment to this sector. The hon. Professor Powys said that there was no specific advice Gentleman talks about support. The aviation sector has and in his words it was a “policy decision”. Given that benefited from our comprehensive package of measures, thousands of jobs and businesses are at risk in tier 2 whether it is the furlough or tax deferral schemes, or all areas such as the north-east, can the Minister tell us the other measures that we have put in place. That is all what the logic is behind this policy decision? part of the wider support that we have given to UK business as a result of the broad shoulders we have as a Steve Barclay: As the right hon. Gentleman will United Kingdom. know, that same SAGE guidance also says that there are multiple anecdotal reports of outbreaks linked to bars, Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): UKHospitality and the Public Health England case control study also reports trade down by 40% to 60% due to the ban on identifies visits to entertainment venues as a risk factor. the indoor mixing of households. Can I therefore add It comes back to the point about balance. Some in the my name to that of other colleagues who have called for House say that there is a risk of infection in these my right hon. Friend to commit to urgently reviewing hospitality venues and we should close them entirely; what targeted support could be provided for enterprises others say that we should have no restrictions at all. We stuck in tier 2, who, as it stands, receive very little have taken our decision on the basis that compliance specific help but will still suffer huge losses of trade tends to decrease later in the evening and that there are from additional restrictions that come with tier 2, and links to outbreaks in these venues. That is the balance ultimately will really struggle to stay open? that we have been striking. Steve Barclay: The most important thing for businesses Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): My right hon. Friend in tier 2 is that we are able to control the virus. That is will be aware that there has been a high degree of public why the Government are investing as heavily as we are opprobrium for employers who have taken advantage in track and trace—over £12 billion so far—and enabling of the furlough scheme and then engaged in poor businesses in tier 2 to retain their staff, which, again, is employment practice. Returning to “fire and rehire”, what the winter plan and the job support package is will he consider an immediate guillotine on any employer doing. The Government have made targeted interventions who sacked 50% or more of their staff and then rehired in support of businesses in tier 2, but we need to balance some or all on reduced pay, so as to disqualify those that against the wider fiscal position that we face. employers from any further form of direct Government support, including the furlough retention bonus? Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): The Minister will surely know by now that my local authority of Steve Barclay: It is very many years since I gave legal Rhondda Cynon Taf has had local restrictions imposed advice as a community lawyer, but one of the things I on it for some weeks now. The Chancellor, when he can remember is that in employment law there is often a lot be bothered to show up, talks a good game, but it is of complexity around what can and cannot be done. clear that this Government do not care about people in The wider point that has been raised in the House, and communities across Wales. It was only earlier this year which my hon. Friend’s question points to, is that there that Pontypridd was decimated by the worst flooding is a consensus that it is not acceptable for businesses to for many decades, and the UK Government simply sat be doing that. Going back to the very first statement on their hands and watched as homes and businesses that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor gave as we were devastated. The Minister now has an opportunity started on the response to covid, he said that how to redeem himself and this Government. We need action people conduct themselves throughout this pandemic now on the money that was promised, so what are his will be remembered. With regard those businesses that plans to finally assist the 3 million people who have do act in this way, we will obviously need to look at that been excluded from the Government support packages in due course. thus far?

Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Steve Barclay: On the issue of the excluded campaign, (SNP) [V]: Given the Chief Secretary’s answers on “fire we have covered this pretty much every time we have and rehire”, which I am very much heartened to hear, I come to the House, for the reasons we have set out. On hope that he will back my Employment (Dismissal and support for Wales, the point the hon. Lady makes is at Re-employment) Bill. With no aviation support package odds with the reality; in the urgent question last week, as promised, the job support scheme riddled with holes the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised and the abolition of airside tax-free shopping, further the issue of some specific flood damage support, and debt or job losses are the only options for firms. It is between then and now we have addressed it, and I have akin to 1980’s policies of “sink or swim”. Last week’s written to him indicating the support available. The statement was completely silent on the sector. Is it now hon. Lady makes a point about the wider support Treasury policy to write off aviation, making tens of without any mention of the guarantee on Barnett thousands of jobs unviable? consequentials that has been given. It is unprecedented for the Government to give a guarantee up front on Steve Barclay: The reality is that the aerospace and Barnett consequentials, yet she does not even mention it aviation sectors have received over £8.5 billion through in her question. the covid corporate financing facility.Grants for research and development, loans and export guarantees are also Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Track and expected over the next 18 months. My right hon. Friend Trace nationally gets a bad press, wrongly in my view, the Secretary of State for Transport recently launched but when we add a local tier, with local people employed, 175 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 176 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support [Craig Whittaker] Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): Fish and seafood wholesalers have been hit hard by a decline the success rate on contacts climbs. Calderdale’s local in demand from the hospitality sector. I have been tier takes the success rate on contacts to almost 90%. contacted by My Fish Company, which is based in How much extra support is being given to these local Fleetwood and which is concerned that the Government’s tiers, which are another tool in the armoury to help domestic seafood supply scheme appears to favour the protect business and local residents? larger national companies because of the short period of time in which to make an application and the level of Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is absolutely right resources that would require. So what reassurances can about the importance of benefiting from the local the Chief Secretary give to my constituents and companies knowledge on track and trace, which is why the Prime based in Fleetwood, many of which are small and Minister and the Chancellor announced an additional medium-sized enterprises, that the Government scheme £500 million to address exactly the point my hon. is going to deliver for them? Friend highlights about the benefit of working closely with local directors of public health. That is exactly Steve Barclay: When we agreed that scheme, it was what we are doing, and the funding announced by the very much with SMEs in mind. I would be quite keen to Prime Minister and Chancellor yesterday will enable look at the delivery of that and to speak to colleagues in that work to accelerate. the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. As the hon. Member knows, as part of this wider package Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): Yesterday, of support, and after listening to businesses such as the I held a roundtable with hospitality businesses facing ones to which she refers, we put in place a £10 million tier 2 restrictions, at which a restaurant owner said that support package in England for the fishing sector. That his business would just bleed out with the economic was about recognising that the restaurant trade in particular support that was available. They asked whether we as a market had been hit and also that exports had been could look at increasing the intervention rate for the job hit. We recognised that there was a pressure in the support scheme in November in order to be more fishing sector and we provided support for it. I am generous, because otherwise they will have to let go of grateful to her for drawing the House’s attention to the their staff and there is the potential for large-scale support that the Government have given to the fishing closures of hospitality businesses.What additional measures sector. If there is a particular constituency issue, I will can the Government bring forward for hospitality businesses ask DEFRA colleagues to look at it. that are under tier 2 restrictions? Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): In Bassetlaw Steve Barclay: Again, I appreciate the concerns the and north Nottinghamshire, we are now subject to tier 2 hon. Gentleman raises on behalf of businesses in his restrictions in line with Nottingham and the rest of the constituency, but, as I said to the hon. Member for county, despite having significantly lower rates. Despite Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) a the tremendous support that has been offered so far, moment ago, by international standards the package of some in the hospitality sector are really struggling, as support the Chancellor has put in place stands fair we have heard from colleagues in the Chamber, so will comparison. That interaction between the support for the Minister please tell us what can be done for those in those jobs and businesses that are able to be open, and tier 2 to help them to get through this incredibly difficult the additional £7 billion of welfare support through time? Will he also try to keep this under review? universal credit, provides dynamic support for the workers to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Steve Barclay: In part, it is our winter plan to support those businesses in terms of the staff they are able to Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): My bring back. There is no gap between the end of the right hon. Friend spoke a few moments ago about the furlough scheme, which has run for eight months—by important role being played by universal credit at this international standards, an extremely generous measure— time, so may I press him again on the Treasury’s intentions and the start of the job support scheme. On top of that, on the temporary uplift in universal credit? It is one there are the measures that my right hon. Friend the thing for a Government to reduce a planned rate of Chancellor announced on the extension of loans to increase of a benefit or even to freeze a benefit, but it is help with cash flow, and on top of that there are the another thing altogether to give extra money to some of measures that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor the poorest people in the country and then take that announced yesterday—the extra £1 billion, the extra away. That is precisely what we are on course to do next £500 million to local authorities, to help those businesses April unless we change course, so will the Minister to control those things. That is ultimately why, collectively, address that issue? we all have a responsibility to keep the virus down in order that those businesses in tier 2 are able to trade and Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend raised exactly come down into tier 1 as soon as possible. the same issue at our urgent question last week, and I know he has a huge understanding of it from his time as Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab) [V]: Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He knows Local lockdowns will undoubtedly affect small businesses full well that the announcement made was a temporary that have already struggled due to the initial lockdown one to deal with the immediate consequences of the earlier this year. In my constituency, traders at Chrisp covid pandemic, and with all these decisions we need to Street market and Watney market were impacted by the balance the competing pressures at a particular time lack of Government support earlier in the year. Some of with the wider fiscal position. those traders operate from rented lock-ups, where their 177 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 178 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support goods are stored, and business rates for those properties an open mind and consulted widely, with the TUC, are paid for by the leaseholder, meaning that market business leaders and many others. That is why for traders did not benefit from business rates relief and hospitality specifically we had a range of measures in therefore suffered financial hardship. May I ask the the summer, with eat out to help out, the targeted VAT Chief Secretary to the Treasury what further financial support and cash support measures, and the job support support can be provided for those local businesses that for staff coming back, where the Government helped are not covered by business rates relief in the event of a with some of those labour costs. Of course the Chancellor local lockdown? will keep these things under review, but the key issue for all of us is to get the virus down, and that is the best way Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady is right to point to the of helping our hospitality sector. fact that when the Government put in place the £10,000 and £25,000 grants of support linked to premises, market Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Yesterday, my traders fell outside of that scheme because it was based constituency of Wallasey, as part of the Liverpool city on property. The specific issue of market traders was region, was mandated by the Government to go into raised with us, and in response we put in place a further tier 3 restrictions. Does the Chief Secretary agree that support scheme giving discretionary grants to local the £40 million of unallocated support that his Government authorities in order that they could tailor that additional gave to the city region at the start of the pandemic funding to local circumstances. I think she could raise could now be used, given that we are in tier 3, to this issue with her local council and ask why it has not support local businesses that are in the worst form of used the discretionary grants to support those traders lockdown? to whom she refers. Steve Barclay: We did address this issue; I recognise Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) that many hon. Members in the House have raised it on (Con): I hugely welcome the expanded jobs support behalf of those councils where the initial estimate was scheme, which is so important, but what it does not do at odds with the actual number of grants issued, but for is help those businesses that supply the events industry—for the same reasons I gave earlier I do not think that would example, the sound engineers and lighting engineers be equitable. Where there are pressures with tier 3, as and, in my constituency, Beat the Street, which provides with the conversations that took place for example tour buses to the music industry. It has not been forced between the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities to shut down, but it has seen its trade wiped out. I urge and Local Government and leaders in Merseyside, among my right hon. Friend to think of ways in which he can others, over the weekend, it is right that the needs are help companies such as that, which employ in excess of addressed pertaining to tier 3, not that the underspend 150 people and can see no end in sight to their current on funding that was allocated in a previous period is financial woes. then used in that way. If the Government were to agree that, many hon. Members across the House would feel Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend rightly highlights that that was unfair. an industry and a sector that have been particularly hit. Again, we have tried, through the package of measures Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I thank my such as the extension of the self-employed income right hon. Friend for the package of support that was support scheme, to help some of those within that put in place yesterday, but may I raise again with him sector. I think the business to which she is referring is companies in the supply chain for the hospitality industry more a pay-as-you-earn one, but it is often freelancers and the events and exhibition industry? He mentioned a who work in, say, the lighting sector and the events moment ago the discretionary criterion available, but sector, and they have been particularly impacted. That unfortunately local councils are not often using that. I is why the self-employed scheme was introduced. To ask him to look at the eligibility criteria for grants and some extent, and given the over £200 million of support, support, which were raised yesterday. Many in the events the Chancellor has been very candid, as have I, about and hospitality industry want to reopen, so will he meet the fact that we were not in a position as a Government me so we can arrange how it can be done safely? to save every single job. Weare working with colleagues—I am always happy to work with my right hon. Friend—to Steve Barclay: First of all , I am always happy to meet look at what measures we can take, but it has to be my hon. Friend and I welcome the constructive approach balanced against the wider fiscal position. that he always takes on these issues. In terms of eligibility, part of the design of the discretionary grant was to give Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) discretion to local authorities to apply it in different (Con) [V]: I thank my right hon. Friend and the Chancellor ways, and it would be slightly at odds with that for the for all the support they have given to jobs and businesses Government to say that there must be a particular way over this period. However, as we move to the next stage of applying it. However, he speaks to a sector that I of our battle, to echo other colleagues, will my right know has been particularly hard hit by covid; we recognise hon. Friend at least agree to keep an open mind about that, and it is a factor that has shaped a number of the further support for hospitality businesses in tier 2, approaches we have brought forward, particularly on which are not required to close, but are going to struggle things such as cash flow. I am very happy to speak with with reduced capacity? I am sure none of us wants to him. see hollowed-out communities as pubs permanently call last orders. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: May I be helpful to the Chief Secretary, as I have been Steve Barclay: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his sometimes in the past? I am the Member of Parliament question; I think the Chancellor has demonstrated for Huddersfield in west Yorkshire; we are tier 2 and, throughout the health pandemic that he has both kept like so many parts of the country, we will be facing vast 179 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 180 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support [Mr Barry Sheerman] secure a change in direction of Government lockdown policy or they have to up the level of support. Which is problems of youth unemployment. May I be very helpful it going to be? by asking him to look at Margaret Thatcher’s history? She introduced a windfall profit tax on the banks. Why Steve Barclay: The fact that, in the course of this cannot he introduce a windfall profit tax year on Amazon, urgent question, we have been criticised both for not the gambling sector—you name it; we know who has done locking down enough and for locking down too much well in this crisis—and then use that money to fund a indicates that these are balanced decisions. The right wonderful green revolution, with new green businesses, hon. Member is right to point to the SAGE advice, new green training and new green jobs for young people? which I know got a lot of media commentary this morning. In an earlier reply, I addressed the fact that Steve Barclay: I have always found the hon. Gentleman there are concerns about outbreaks linked to bars and constructive, and I welcome the fact that he is looking whether compliance is worse later at night, but that is at the fiscal position we face as a country and how we part of the package of measures. That is why,in September, may address that. It would be remiss of me, given my we brought in the additional measures we did. It is why, responsibilities, to stray into the terrain of the next yesterday, the Prime Minister went further with a tiered Budget and tax-raising measures; I will leave that for approach, but it is a balanced approach. my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the very Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): In answer serious issue of youth unemployment. I think it is an to an earlier question, the Chief Secretary talked about issue that concerns us all in this House. The sectors that the interaction of the job support scheme and universal are most hit have concentrations of young people, credit. Could he perhaps flesh out a specific example? particularly in the hospitality sector. It is really at the I think I am right in saying that people getting support heart of the winter plan that my right hon. Friend from both of those schemes can get up to about 90% of brought forward in doubling the number of work coaches, their income, which is obviously of huge benefit. I would in tripling the number of traineeships and with the reinforce the point of the former Secretary of State for £2,000 for apprenticeships. We have been looking at and Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member learning from not just the Thatcher era, but actually for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb). I accept from the previous Labour Government with some of that the UC extra money was temporary during the the packages we discussed with the TUC and others. pandemic, but the Government’s own strategy document One of the great challenges we face is how we address suggests that the pandemic will not be over by next not just the number of people who are unemployed, but April. I do not expect an answer today—[Laughter]—but the length of time they are unemployed. That is an it is something for the Treasury to think about. absolutely key issue, and that is why the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is so focused on doubling Steve Barclay: On the wider point, my right hon Friend, the number of work coaches. The hon. Gentleman is as a former Government Chief Whip, knows full well quite right to highlight that issue. that in government one balances these Budget submissions alongside the wider fiscal position that the Government face. On his first point, he is absolutely right. If we Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): Stoke-on- combine the 67% of support through the job support Trent is currently in medium risk tier 1, but we all know scheme with the dynamic element of universal credit, that any area can see an increase in infection rates. With that takes us much more towards 88%. I can give specific the introduction of the tier system, many workers in the examples, but I have been asked to be briefer—by you, highest tier will once again be unable to go to work and Mr Speaker—in my replies. The point is that my right make a living for themselves and their families. Will my hon. Friend is absolutely right on that, and I am very happy right hon. Friend please reassure me that those who are to share some examples with him. unable to attend their place of work will continue to be supported by this Government, particularly those from Mr Speaker: Especially when the Member does not low-income households with rents to pay? want an answer, Minister! [Laughter.]

Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: Without has sought to do that throughout this crisis. In the additional financial support, the restrictions to which interests of brevity—as requested from the Chair—I South Yorkshire will be subject will deal a hammer would point to the example we had with the shielding blow to businesses and high streets across our region. programme. I think it was a very proud record, which Can I ask the Chief Secretary what assessment the indicates that intent. Treasury has done on the economic effect of the tier 2 measures, and whether he is personally satisfied that the John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): It is a shame the Chancellor current support available will be enough to save jobs is not here today because the Treasury needs to get a and businesses here in South Yorkshire? better answer to the question from the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride) and others: what is the Steve Barclay: I know through his local responsibilities evidence, not anecdotes, to back up the case for the that the hon. Member is in conversation with my ministerial curfew and lockdown for the vast hospitality sector, colleagues in the wider discussions on our response. The which is facing closures, cashflow crises and job losses reality is, as I said earlier, that one cannot be satisfied across pubs and clubs, restaurants and cafés, betting that every job in the area will be protected. It is about shops, bingo halls, casinos, theatres and cinemas, gyms having a balance of measures that enables those businesses and wedding venues? Treasury Ministers either have to to be open that can be and takes action on the virus to 181 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 182 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support suppress the increase. The previous question from one contrast to the aviation sector, where very little direct of his own parliamentary colleagues was to say that we specific support has been provided. In many parts of should not be going as far as we are. He is saying, as I the country, our domestic air routes and our regional understand it, that we should be going further, but with airports are just as much vital transport infrastructure wider support. That points to the fact that even within as the railway is, so will my right hon. Friend please our own parties we have these debates. look again at what support can be given to the aviation It is about getting the balance. We have brought sector, particularly our regional airports? forward what is by international standards a very supportive package that combines the additional billion pounds to Steve Barclay: I know that my hon. Friend is a strong local authorities and the extra £500 million to localise champion of the aviation sector, not least because he track and trace, which the hon. Member and other local and I have discussed the issue. I know he has championed leaders have called for. We have listened to those it within Government. It is not the case that the aviation representations, and that is reflected. I hope he welcomes sector has not had support. I pointed earlier to the that, and I look forward to working with him constructively £8.5 billion through the corporate financing facility. In in the days and weeks ahead. terms of Government focus on the sector, he is absolutely right that it is an important sector for the UK to focus Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): Oadby and Wigston on. We have the largest aviation network in Europe, the in my constituency was the first place in the country to third largest in the world. My hon. Friend draws attention receive extra support because of our local lockdown. I to an important sector, and that is why my right hon. pay tribute to Treasury officials and Ministers for putting Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has launched it in place so quickly, but what is being done through a global travel taskforce, and is working with the travel the kickstart scheme and other schemes to create new industry as part of that. jobs and to fight unemployment? Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): Local Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend raises a good point, lockdowns affect a far wider range of businesses than and it speaks to the point raised on youth unemployment just those that are forced to close. Food and drink suppliers a moment ago. We have invested £2 billion in the such as Edinburgh Beer Factory in my constituency will kickstart scheme. We are tripling traineeships. We have be severely affected. Small and medium enterprises such the £2,000 for firms taking on apprenticeships. That is as that are the backbone of the Scottish economy, so something that the Secretary of State for Work and why has the Chancellor’s furlough replacement scheme Pensions is particularly focused on, as well as the doubling so drastically slashed support for innovative and thriving of work coaches. Linked to that is our investment in businesses such as the Edinburgh Beer Factory? green jobs through net zero and the package that was announced by the Chancellor,including the decarbonisation Steve Barclay: It has not. It has provided a universal of public buildings and homes and the creation of green offer to all firms that are able to be open, for exactly the jobs. We are bringing forward the £5 billion infrastructure reason at the heart of her question. She is quite right package that the Prime Minister announced the week that the displacement impact goes far beyond areas in before the summer economic update. We then need to tier 3 or tier 2. Businesses supplying them are affected. link those jobs to skills through schemes such as the We had a question earlier about support for the fishing kickstart, so that for those who are not able to retain industry. One of the key challenges with the fishing their jobs, we are able to get them into the new jobs of industry was exactly the point to which she refers—they the future. were supplying other businesses that had been affected, and that is why we put £10 million of support into that Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab) [V]: It is sector. important that the Government understand the reality We have taken a universal approach. It is at odds, of people’s lives as new restrictions are introduced. though, with the questions we often get in the House, Figures from the Low Pay Commission show that around which are very much about whether we can support this 1,800 people in Wirral West are paid at or around the sector or that sector. We have taken a universal approach minimum wage. Many people on low pay work in bars because we recognise that one cannot necessarily draw a and restaurants, and I am very concerned about the geographical line around the suppliers of businesses impact that the new restrictions will have on their that are impacted. ability to pay their bills. What action will the Government take to ensure that working people in Wirral West do Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): On Sunday evening, not face poverty as a result of these new measures? Mayor Andy Street was told that Solihull would be in tier 1. The day afterwards we appeared in tier 2. Does Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady is right to highlight the Minister recognise the crushing blow that that gives that worry that many people have, particularly with the to the hospitality industry and that tier 2 is economically additional announcements. That is why we have taken the worst of all possible worlds? the action we have, with the additional £7 billion into welfare to enable universal credit to top-up where there Steve Barclay: I think we all agree in this House that is an impact on people’s wages. That combination of we want to do all we can to get the virus down and get the job support scheme and universal credit speaks exactly businesses open. We do not want businesses to be in to the concerns she raises. tier 2 or indeed tier 3. We want to support them so that they are able to function as much as possible. Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): The The timing of moving between different tiers is shaped Government have rightly put in several billion pounds by a range of factors—the number of positive tests, the directly to support the rail industry, but that is in sharp amount of testing that is being done, the views of the 183 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health Restrictions: 184 Government Economic Support Government Economic Support [Steve Barclay] Steve Barclay: We have addressed this already in a number of questions. The point is that it is not simply local director of public health and the views of local two thirds; it is dynamic, aligned with universal credit, leaders such as Andy Street. We all want to ensure that which then moves to top that up. The package of as many businesses as possible remain in tier 1. support, which is above that provided by many of our European comparators, is, if combined with universal Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland credit, at 88% in many circumstances, not 67%. West) (Lab) [V]: Data out today shows that over 1,700 more people in my constituency were unemployed in August Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): Stevie the Sweet—not 2020 than in August 2019, and that is before the existing everyone’s pet name for the Chief Secretary, but Stevie furlough scheme ends. With unemployment in the north- who has the sweet stall on Mold market in my east already rocketing to 6.6%, the highest of any UK constituency—yelled at me as I walked past on Saturday. region, why is the Chancellor allowing damage not seen “Oi,” he said, “that Boris and Rishi and all the Treasury since Thatcher in the 1980s to befall my region? team are all right by me.” That is the story up and down my Delyn constituency, where my small business owners Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady is usually one of the commend the work done by the Treasury and the support most constructive Members. To suggest that a pandemic they have been given during this pandemic. Does my that all countries are grappling with is down to some right hon. Friend agree that, when businesses in our tourism sort of ideological approach by the Government is not sector are being effectively locked down by draconian accurate. The Government have put in place a furlough travel measures put in place by the Welsh Government, scheme for eight months that stands very good comparison perhaps we need to step in and assist them a little more with those of other countries. We have more than —for example, Greenacres and Tree Tops caravan parks £200 billion of measures to support businesses, including in my constituency? in her constituency, and that is not only to help retain people in jobs. From a peak of 8.9 million on furlough, more than half of those remained in employment through Steve Barclay: One of the strongest benefits to businesses the job support scheme. We are ensuring that more in Wales, and indeed across the United Kingdom, is the businesses are able to bring their staff back. But at the broad shoulders and ability of the UK Treasury to act same time we are being honest. Some businesses will on behalf of the entire United Kingdom. That is a huge not be able to survive. That is why we put £2 billion into strength and it has helped to enable schemes such as the kickstart scheme. It is why we are tripling traineeships. furlough and others to be of benefit to businesses in It is why we put funding into apprenticeships, with a Wales.OnthemeasuresputinplacebynationalGovernments, £2,000 sign-on. It is why we are bringing forward infra- the more that is done through the Joint Biosecurity structure investment. It is to create those jobs for her Centre with consistency, the better. But obviously, that constituents. is a decision for the Welsh Government.

Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): VAT Mr Speaker: Tim Farron, follow that. cuts and business rates holidays were superb for the hospitality operators but unfortunately did not pass Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I will down to supply chains such as ceramic manufacturers. do my best, Mr Speaker. Flexibility needs to be introduced into the job support Outdoor education centres are a crucial part of our scheme to allow continuous manufacturers such as those visitor economy. There are 60-plus of them in Cumbria, in ceramics the ability to access the support of the employing hundreds of talented people whose jobs are, scheme for their weekly workforce. What plans are I am afraid, now seriously at risk. Outdoor education being made to allow ceramic manufacturers such as centres provide huge benefits in personal development, Churchill China and Steelite the flexibility to access the education, and physical and mental health, which are support of this scheme? particularly valuable, even essential, at this time. They are as safe to reopen as schools, yet they face imminent Steve Barclay: There is always a balance between the closure and ruin. Will the Minister meet with me and operability of schemes, the speed at which one can the heads of outdoor education centres so we can take deploy them and how bespoke one makes them. I know urgent action to save them? that my hon. Friend is a huge champion of the ceramics industry, and I know it is important to Stoke and to businesses in his constituency. If there are specific issues, Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman raises a valid I am happy to pick them up offline with him, but the point, and having lived in his constituency for a couple key message we usually get from businesses is the of years, I know how important outdoor education importance of getting packages to people quickly and centres are to the economy. He is also quite right to in particular of addressing the cash flow challenges that point to their benefit to mental and physical health, they face. often for young people, who have been particularly impacted in recent weeks. I suggest that I alert Ministers Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): Last week, in the Department for Education to the specific concern the Chancellor announced that workers at businesses he raises, so they can meet him so that the Department’s and workplaces forced to close would be eligible for guidance can take his point on board. grants worth two thirds of their salary. That is clearly not enough. Will the Minister tell me whether bills, Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): The rents and mortgages will be charged at two thirds of the Conservative Government have stood up to protect usual amount? If not, will the Government extend the jobs, incomes and businesses with unprecedented measures, evictions ban? so will my right hon. Friend reassure me that his priority 185 Public Health Restrictions: 13 OCTOBER 2020 186 Government Economic Support is to create, support and extend opportunity, especially School Breakfast for people in Stoke-on-Trent, where there is a need to grow the quality of job opportunities? Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23) Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is quite right: this is about not only working together to retain as many jobs 1.53 pm as possible, but looking to the jobs of the future. He has constructive views on how we use levelling up in terms Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): I beg of the future jobs that can be offered in Stoke. We need to move, to combine that with our commitments on infrastructure, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require schools to broadband, research and development investment, and provide breakfast club facilities; and for connected purposes. net zero, then look at those future jobs and the skills I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of training that is offered to his constituents in Stoke, so Members’ Financial Interests. that those who move from their current jobs can quickly Across England this morning, more than 2 million get into those jobs of the future. children—that we know of—will have arrived at school ready to learn with a gnawing hunger in their stomach. Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Their day will be marked with worry about when they Members participating in this item of business and and others in their family might be able to eat again. the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am That will have a significant impact on their learning, suspending the House for three minutes. because hungry children do not learn, no matter how bright and determined they are, and no matter how amazing 1.50 pm or dedicated their teachers are. Sitting suspended. Numerous studies have shown the links between nutrition Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, and cognitive development, with hungry children suffering 4 June). developmental impairments, language delays and delayed motor skills, not to mention the psychological and emotional impact, which can range from withdrawn and depressive behaviours to irritable and aggressive ones. The physical and mental health consequences for those stuck in this hopeless situation are dire and long lasting. Research conducted prior to the pandemic found rising levels of hospital admissions for children due to malnutrition and a resurgence of Victorian diseases associated with hunger. Research last year also found that children who went without breakfast tended to be overweight and obese. Schools in my constituency have said that, without this Bill, they may have to charge for or cease breakfast provision next year. Research by the University of Leeds found that children who eat a regular breakfast achieve an average of two GCSE grades higher than those who rarely eat breakfast. Not only is the Bill the morally right thing to do; it clearly makes no long-term economic sense to deprive children of this vital meal. Stories of children going to school with a grey pallor,under-nourished, rummaging through bins for food and wearing threadbare clothing are commonplace. Schools in South Shields have told me that children complain of persistent hunger and stomach pains. One little boy turned up for school having only had a small piece of chocolate for his breakfast. For some, the last time they had any food was their school dinner the day before, and for many children on free school meals, waiting until midday is too long. As one teacher said, it is three hours too late. We know the statistics, facts and reality of the grinding and increasing poverty in daily life for so many children in our country, and we know that this is not the fault of their parents. There is not a single mam or dad I have spoken to who is not totally heartbroken and ashamed that their child is going without, but I remind them and their children that it is not their shame; it is the Government’s, because these levels of hunger were and are avoidable. Last year, the United Nations special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights expressed so clearly how the ongoing policies of austerity introduced in 187 School Breakfast 13 OCTOBER 2020 School Breakfast 188

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck] Islam—also known to many of us as Cat Stevens—and the Children’s Commissioner. Over 30,000 people have 2010, welfare reform measures and inaction on low-paid signed a petition in support of it, and over 70 Members and insecure work have had tragic social consequences. across the House, including the excellent Chair of the That view is supported by 65% of teachers, who, when Education Committee, the right hon. Member for Harlow surveyed by Magic Breakfast, said they felt that the (Robert Halfon), also support the Bill. They all support Government were not doing enough to help children at it because they know that there is no justification and risk of hunger. no argument robust enough to deny children a breakfast. Coronavirus has exacerbated poverty levels. In the I want to say a big thank you to Magic Breakfast and first five weeks of lockdown, more than 2 million children Feeding Britain, which have worked tirelessly to make experienced food insecurity.Over 1 million more children this Bill a reality. But the people who have really made have become eligible for free school meals, and a staggering the Bill possible are those parents and children who 4 million children are now living in poverty. Many are have been brave enough to share their pain with me. hungry every single day of the year, with no let-up in Despite the challenges they face, they have taken the sight. When I was a child protection social worker, it time to use their experiences to try to make a difference was the children suffering from severe neglect who for others. Their daily struggle should be something would be struggling in this way, but now we are faced that we are all determined to change. with a generation of children for whom the hopelessness As I present this Bill, there will be children struggling of austerity and poverty are becoming the norm. to focus because their stomachs are rumbling. The I am acutely aware that this Bill will not address the persistent worry that comes with hunger will permeate underlying causes of hunger; nor will it be a panacea for their entire day. All of us in this place owe it to every every hungry child, but it absolutely will ensure that single child who woke up hungry this morning and who those who currently go without that first important will go to bed hungry tonight in one of the richest meal of the school day no longer will. It will make a countries in the world to make sure that this Bill becomes huge difference for families such as one family in my law. I commend this Bill to the House. constituency who were visited by the local Key 2 Life Question put and agreed to. Food Bank; volunteers went to a bare and desolate Ordered, home, where they found three children and their mam in dire need. When a food parcel arrived for them, the That Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck, Sir David Amess, children began to rip at the boxes with their hands, Robert Halfon, Paul Maynard, Dr Daniel Poulter,Christian shaking with hunger. When we think of these children, Wakeford, Caroline Lucas, Nadia Whittome, Ian Mearns, we should all be lost for words. How, as a society, have Siobhain McDonagh, Wera Hobhouse and Mr Kevan we ever allowed this to happen? Jones present the Bill. Research has shown that the benefits of breakfast Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck accordingly presented the clubs go beyond food. Teachers and school staff have Bill. reported that children often make new friends at these Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on clubs and have time to share their worries with staff, Friday 5 February, and to be printed (Bill 194). and for many, they can complete their homework using a computer and in the warmth. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) The School Breakfast Bill is a simple, costed Bill which will ensure that, when the Government’s current Motion made, and Question proposed, breakfast club programme expires in 2021, there will That, at this day’s sitting, notwithstanding the provisions of be enshrined in legislation a commitment to a more Standing Order No. 16, proceedings on the first of the Motions in the name of a Minister of the Crown relating to Public Health comprehensive, evidence-based programme of school regulations (S.I., 2020, Nos. 1103, 1104, 1105, 1005, 1008, 1046 breakfast clubs. The Bill will ensure that all state-funded and 1029) shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 6.00pm; primary and secondary schools in England where at the Speaker shall then put the Questions necessary to dispose of least 50% of pupils are in the income deprivation affecting proceedings on those Motions forthwith; such Questions, though children index receive funding from the soft drinks levy opposed, may be put after the moment of interruption; and to deliver breakfasts for every single child in the school, Standing Order No.41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Stuart including those children with no recourse to public Andrew.) funds, who are currently, shamefully, excluded from free The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 181. school meals. Additionally, the Bill will allow for any Division No. 131] [2.3 pm school that has demonstrated a need for the provision to request funding. AYES I have always believed in the transformational power Afolami, Bim Bacon, Mr Richard of education. It is certainly not standard for children Ahmad Khan, Imran Badenoch, Kemi from my background to end up in this place. The power Aiken, Nickie Bailey, Shaun of education should never be underestimated. The food Aldous, Peter Baillie, Siobhan that fuels the ability to learn and develop should never Allan, Lucy Baker, Duncan be understated. This Bill will make sure that socioeconomic Amess, Sir David Baker, Mr Steve status is not a deciding factor in good educational Anderson, Lee Baldwin, Harriett outcomes.It will make sure that where some of our children Anderson, Stuart Barclay, rh Steve begin in life is not always where they end up. Andrew, Stuart Baron, Mr John This small, simple Bill will have a profound impact Argar, Edward Baynes, Simon on the lives of so many.It is supported by over 30 respected Atherton, Sarah Bell, Aaron national organisations, Marcus Rashford MBE, Yusuf Bacon, Gareth Benton, Scott 189 School Breakfast 13 OCTOBER 2020 School Breakfast 190

Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Andrew Pursglove, Tom Berry, rh Jake Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, rh Mr David Quin, Jeremy Bhatti, Saqib Everitt, Ben Jones, Fay Quince, Will Blackman, Bob Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, Tom Blunt, Crispin Farris, Laura Jupp, Simon Redwood, rh John Bone, Mr Peter Fell, Simon Kearns, Alicia Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Bowie, Andrew Fletcher, Katherine Keegan, Gillian Richards, Nicola Bradley, Ben Fletcher, Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Richardson, Angela Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Nick Knight, Julian Roberts, Rob Braverman, rh Suella Ford, Vicky Kruger, Danny Robertson, Mr Laurence Brereton, Jack Foster, Kevin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Robinson, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamont, John Robinson, Mary Brine, Steve Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Rosindell, Andrew Bristow, Paul Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea Ross, Douglas Britcliffe, Sara Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rowley, Lee Brokenshire, rh James Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian Russell, Dean Bruce, Fiona Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewis, rh Brandon Rutley, David Buchan, Felicity Ghani, Ms Nusrat Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sambrook, Gary Buckland, rh Robert Gibb, rh Nick Lockhart, Carla Saxby, Selaine Burghart, Alex Gibson, Peter Loder, Chris Scully, Paul Burns, rh Conor Gideon, Jo Logan, Mark Seely, Bob Butler, Rob Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Longhi, Marco Selous, Andrew Cairns, rh Alun Girvan, Paul Lopresti, Jack Shannon, Jim Carter, Andy Glen, John Lord, Mr Jonathan Shelbrooke, rh Alec Cartlidge, James Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Simmonds, David Cash, Sir William Gove, rh Michael Mackinlay, Craig Skidmore, rh Chris Cates, Miriam Graham, Richard Mackrory, Cherilyn Smith, Chloe Caulfield, Maria Grant, Mrs Helen Maclean, Rachel Smith, Greg Chalk, Alex Green, Chris Mak, Alan Smith, Henry Chishti, Rehman Green, rh Damian Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Royston Churchill, Jo Griffith, Andrew Mann, Scott Solloway, Amanda Clark, rh Greg Griffiths, Kate Marson, Julie Spencer, Dr Ben Clarke, Mr Simon Grundy, James Maynard, Paul Spencer, rh Mark Clarke, Theo Gullis, Jonathan McCartney, Jason Stafford, Alexander Clarke-Smith, Brendan Halfon, rh Robert McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Clarkson, Chris Hall, Luke Menzies, Mark Stevenson, Jane Cleverly, rh James Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Johnny Stewart, Bob Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hancock, rh Matt Merriman, Huw Stewart, Iain Colburn, Elliot Hands, rh Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Sir Gary Collins, Damian Harper, rh Mr Mark Millar, Robin Stride, rh Mel Costa, Alberto Harrison, Trudy Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stuart, Graham Coutinho, Claire Hart, Sally-Ann Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunderland, James Crosbie, Virginia Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mohindra, Mr Gagan Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Crouch, Tracey Heappey, James Moore, Damien Syms, Sir Robert Daly, James Henderson, Gordon Moore, Robbie Thomas, Derek Davies, David T. C. Henry, Darren Mordaunt, rh Penny Timpson, Edward Davies, Gareth Higginbotham, Antony Morris, Anne Marie Tolhurst, Kelly Davies, Dr James Hinds, rh Damian Morris, David Tomlinson, Justin Davies, Mims Hoare, Simon Morris, James Trott, Laura Davis, rh Mr David Holden, Mr Richard Morton, Wendy Truss, rh Elizabeth Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Mullan, Dr Kieran Tugendhat, Tom Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Mumby-Croft, Holly Vara, Mr Shailesh Dines, Miss Sarah Holloway, Adam Murray, Mrs Sheryll Vickers, Martin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holmes, Paul Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Vickers, Matt Docherty, Leo Howell, John Neill, Sir Robert Villiers, rh Theresa Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Nici, Lia Wakeford, Christian Dorries, Ms Nadine Huddleston, Nigel Nokes, rh Caroline Walker, Mr Robin Double, Steve Hudson, Dr Neil Norman, rh Jesse Wallace, rh Mr Ben Dowden, rh Oliver Hughes, Eddie O’Brien, Neil Wallis, Dr Jamie Drax, Richard Hunt, Jane Opperman, Guy Warman, Matt Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, rh Jeremy Parish, Neil Webb, Suzanne Duddridge, James Hunt, Tom Patel, rh Priti Wheeler, Mrs Heather Duguid, David Jack, rh Mr Alister Paterson, rh Mr Owen Whittaker, Craig Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Javid, rh Sajid Pawsey, Mark Whittingdale, rh Mr John Dunne, rh Philip Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Penning, rh Sir Mike Wiggin, Bill Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark Penrose, John Wild, James Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Andrea Percy, Andrew Williams, Craig Ellis, rh Michael Jenrick, rh Robert Philp, Chris Williamson, rh Gavin Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, Dr Caroline Pincher, rh Christopher Wilson, rh Sammy Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Dan Wood, Mike Eustice, rh George Johnston, David Pow, Rebecca Wragg, Mr William 191 School Breakfast 13 OCTOBER 2020 School Breakfast 192

Wright, rh Jeremy Tellers for the Ayes: Kyle, Peter Rayner, Angela Young, Jacob Maggie Throup and Lammy, rh Mr David Reed, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Michael Tomlinson Lavery, Ian Rees, Christina Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reeves, Ellie NOES Lloyd, Tony Reeves, Rachel Long Bailey, Rebecca Reynolds, Jonathan Abbott, rh Ms Diane Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Caroline Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Abrahams, Debbie Eagle, Maria Lynch, Holly Rimmer, Ms Marie Ali, Rushanara Elliott, Julie Madders, Justin Rodda, Matt Ali, Tahir Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Eshalomi, Florence Mahmood, Shabana Shah, Naz Amesbury, Mike Esterson, Bill Malhotra, Seema Sharma, Mr Virendra Anderson, Fleur Evans, Chris Maskell, Rachael Sheerman, Mr Barry Antoniazzi, Tonia Fletcher, Colleen Matheson, Christian Siddiq, Tulip Ashworth, Jonathan Fovargue, Yvonne McCarthy, Kerry Slaughter, Andy Barker, Paula Foxcroft, Vicky McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Cat Beckett, rh Margaret Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Andy Smith, Nick Begum, Apsana Furniss, Gill McDonnell, rh John Smyth, Karin Betts, Mr Clive Gardiner, Barry McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sobel, Alex Blake, Olivia Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Spellar, rh John Brabin, Tracy Glindon, Mary McGovern, Alison Stevens, Jo Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Green, Kate McKinnell, Catherine Streeting, Wes Brennan, Kevin Greenwood, Margaret McMahon, Jim Stringer, Graham Brown, Ms Lyn Griffith, Nia Mearns, Ian Sultana, Zarah Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu Tami, rh Mark Buck, Ms Karen Haigh, Louise Morden, Jessica Tarry, Sam Burgon, Richard Hamilton, Fabian Morgan, Stephen Thomas-Symonds, Nick Butler, Dawn Hardy, Emma Morris, Grahame Thornberry, rh Emily Byrne, Ian Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian Timms, rh Stephen Byrne, rh Liam Harris, Carolyn Murray, James Trickett, Jon Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hayes, Helen Nichols, Charlotte Turner, Karl Carden, Dan Hendrick, Sir Mark Norris, Alex Twigg, Derek Champion, Sarah Hill, Mike Onwurah, Chi Twist, Liz Charalambous, Bambos Hillier, Meg Oppong-Asare, Abena Vaz, rh Valerie Clark, Feryal Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Osamor, Kate West, Catherine Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Kate Whitehead, Dr Alan Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Owatemi, Taiwo Whitley, Mick Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel Owen, Sarah Whittome, Nadia Creasy, Stella Howarth, rh Sir George Peacock, Stephanie Winter, Beth Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran Perkins, Mr Toby Yasin, Mohammad Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Phillips, Jess Zeichner, Daniel Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana Phillipson, Bridget Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim Pollard, Luke Tellers for the Noes: Daby, Janet Jones, Darren Powell, Lucy Jeff Smith and Davies, Geraint Jones, Gerald Qureshi, Yasmin Matt Western Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan De Cordova, Marsha Jones, Ruth Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Sarah Question accordingly agreed to. Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kane, Mike The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Dodds, Anneliese Keeley, Barbara proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Doughty, Stephen Kendall, Liz proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Dowd, Peter Khan, Afzal Dromey, Jack Kinnock, Stephen 193 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 194 Regulations Public Health: Coronavirus Regulations State outline whether there are plans to reopen or revive the Nightingale hospitals to serve that region? I do not Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): The mean the hospital in Manchester. business of the House motion that the House has just agreed to provides for motions 3 to 9 on today’s Order Matt Hancock: Yes, as the hon. Lady will know, three Paper to be debated together, but I assure the House Nightingale hospitals were put on alert yesterday to be that the Question will be put separately on each motion reopened. The closest Nightingale is in Manchester, but at the end of the debate. we keep that under review because expanding the capacity of the NHS is one of the things that we can do. Nevertheless, no matter how big the NHS is, if the virus 2.19 pm is not under control it will make more people need The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care hospital treatment than there could possibly be hospital (Matt Hancock): I beg to move, treatment available for. While we are, of course, restarting the Nightingales, which have been mothballed for months, That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local Covid-19 Alert that is only a precaution; it cannot be the full answer to Level) (Medium) (England) Regulations 2020, (S.I., 2020, No. 1103), dated 12 October 2020, a copy of which was laid before this the question. We had a very good discussion yesterday House on 12 October, be approved. about the measures in Liverpool city region, which I will come on to in some detail. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): With this we shall take the following motions, on public Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): To follow on from health: what my right hon. Friend said about our strategy being to suppress the virus until a vaccine makes us safe—until That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local Covid-19 Alert science saves us—the Prime Minister yesterday was, Level) (High) (England) Regulations 2020, (S.I., 2020, No. 1104), dated 12 October 2020, a copy of which was laid before this very wisely, cautious in his answer to our hon. Friend House on 12 October, be approved. the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) on the vaccine. That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local Covid-19 Alert What if it does not come, and what if it comes and the Level) (Very High) (England) Regulations 2020, (S.I., 2020, No. 1105), efficacy of it is not good enough, and there are challenges dated 12 October 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House with roll-out and all sorts of other challenges that he on 12 October, be approved. and I know about—the anti-vaxxers notwithstanding? That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Collection of Contact Can he give those of us who are nervous about— Details etc and Related Requirements) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1005), dated 17 September 2020, a copy of which was laid Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. before this House on 17 September, be approved. This is not a question but a very quick intervention. That the Health Protection (Coronavirus,Restrictions) (Obligations I have 89 people who want to speak. If there are to be of Hospitality Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, interventions, they must be short. No. 1008), dated 17 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 17 September, be approved. Matt Hancock: Of course, the work on a vaccine That the Health Protection (Coronavirus,Restrictions) (Obligations continues. No vaccine technology is certain, but we of Undertakings) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 have already bought six different vaccines and there are (S.I., 2020, No. 1046), dated 26 September 2020, a copy of which more than 100 in development around the world. That was laid before this House on 28 September, be approved. is what underpins the strategy, and the work on the That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) leading vaccines, including the AstraZeneca Oxford (England) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, vaccine, continues effectively. We have seen, both here No. 1029), dated 24 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 24 September, be approved. and overseas, just how quickly the virus can take hold, and we have to act now to get it under control. Matt Hancock: Two weeks ago, I pledged to the Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): At the beginning House that for significant national measures we will of August, Calderdale had just four people in hospital consult Parliament in advance of their coming into with covid, zero in intensive care units, and spikes in force wherever possible, and today we deliver on that just two wards. This morning, we have 43 people in commitment with votes tonight on national measures hospital with covid, six in ICUs, 12 deaths this month, to slow the spread of coronavirus. This pandemic remains and almost 800 positive cases coming through. Can my a formidable threat. Our strategy is to suppress the right hon. Friend say what steps he is taking to ensure virus, supporting the economy, education and the NHS, that the NHS is not overwhelmed by the virus in the until a vaccine makes us safe, and I must report to the coming months? House that the number of cases of coronavirus has quadrupled in the last three weeks. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. There are now more people in hospital with coronavirus I have just said that we must not have long interventions. than there were on 23 March, and in the last four weeks These points are for the speeches that people are waiting hospitals in the north-west and north-east of England to make later. If a Member wants to intervene on the have seen a sevenfold increase in the number of covid Secretary of State about something that he has just patients in intensive care. In those worst-affected areas, said, that is all very well, but if they make points about the virus is spreading just as quickly in older age groups, their constituencies at this stage rather than waiting not just among younger adults. until later, it is simply dishonourable; it is just not right.

Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Given that Liverpool Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend—and he is an city region, which includes my constituency of Wallasey, honourable man—makes an important point that has was placed in tier 3 yesterday, could the Secretary of wider context than just his constituency, which is that 195 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 196 Regulations Regulations [Matt Hancock] Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Will the Secretary of State acknowledge—a simple yes or no—that we we must make sure that we control the virus. My heart should not be in this position in the first place and that goes out to the families of those in his constituency who the best exit strategy is having an effective system of have died. The only alternative to suppressing the virus testing, tracing and isolating that is locally led? If that is that it then expands exponentially. That is what were working properly—even SAGE has admitted that happens with a virus when the R is above 1. I know that it is not—we would not be here. some people feel that we should adopt a more relaxed approach, but that will lead to more of the sort of thing Matt Hancock: We have one of the biggest systems that my hon. Friend has related from his constituency. of tracking and tracing in the world. The idea that I Some people have set out this more relaxed approach, sometimes get from people in this House is that, somehow, including those in the so-called Great Barrington it is not one of the biggest systems in the world or one declaration. I want to take this argument head on, of the most effective in the world. I get that in this because on the substance, the Great Barrington declaration House, but I do not get it when I talk to my international is underpinned by two central claims and both are colleagues. They ask me, “How did you manage to build emphatically false. First, it says that if enough people this capacity so fast?” That is the truth of it. get covid, we will reach herd immunity. That is not true. Of course we need to continue to build it and to make Many infectious diseases never reach herd immunity, sure it is continuously more integrated into the local such as measles, malaria, AIDS and flu, and with communities, who can often go to reach the contacts increasing evidence of reinfection, we should have no that the national system finds it hard to reach. However, confidence that we would ever reach herd immunity to to argue that the enormous system that is working so covid, even if everyone caught it. Herd immunity is a effectively, with so many brilliant people working on it, flawed goal without a vaccine, even if we could get to it, is at the root of this challenge is, unfortunately, to miss which we cannot. the big picture, which is that, sadly, this virus passes The second central claim is that we can segregate the on—until we have a vaccine or a massive testing capacity old and vulnerable on our way to herd immunity. That that nobody yet has, this virus passes on through social is simply not possible. As the medical director of the contact and that is, unfortunately, what we need to tackle NHS said yesterday, we cannot somehow fence off in order to get this under control. the elderly and the vulnerable from risk while everyone Let me make a point about the numbers. In the first else returns to normal. It is neither conscionable nor peak, about 8% of people caught covid and 42,000 people practicable—not when so many people live in inter- died. If we do not have the virus under control, even generational homes, not when older people need carers with the better survival rates we now have, thanks to who of course themselves live in the community, and both drug discoveries by British science and improvements not when young people can suffer the debilitating impact in clinical practice, those figures will multiply.In addition, of long covid. Whenever we have seen cases among harder economic measures would then inevitably be young people rise sharply, we then see cases among the needed to get it under control and they would be needed over-60s rise inevitably thereafter, and we are not the for longer. If you, Madam Deputy Speaker, like me, want kind of country that abandons our vulnerable or just our economy back on full throttle, we need to keep this locks them up. virus in check. If we let this virus continue unchecked, the loss of life would be simply too great to contemplate. We know Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Yesterday, in that it would put our NHS at risk, as my hon. Friends his call with Merseyside MPs, the Health Secretary was have just said. We know that both because of what asked about a circuit breaker lockdown and he did not happened in March and because of what is happening say that SAGE had recommended that three weeks ago. right now. We have already heard from the heads of the Is that the case? Will he now publish the full scientific Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and the Royal College evidence for a circuit breaker lockdown? of Emergency Medicine that, if we do not act fast and come together to quash the virus, we risk putting the Matt Hancock: The SAGE advice that Ministers receive NHS under extraordinary strain both for covid treatments is, of course, published; we have had great debates in and for non-covid treatments. this House about that and it is published. Wemake decisions that are guided by the science, taking into account all John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): How long do the the different considerations we need to look to. scientists think we will need these lockdowns for, and what is their exit plan? Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): It is worth giving credit to the NHS Test and Trace team for the Matt Hancock: We have seen the exit plan from local growth in testing, but the evidence published yesterday lockdowns. For instance, in Leicester, where we had a said that the impact of the testing and tracing system firm local lockdown, the case rate came right down. We was having only a marginal effect on reducing the virus. lifted that and we have sadly seen it start to rise again. So can the Secretary of State look not just in high-risk The case rate is determined by the amount of social areas, but in all areas to get more of the contact tracing mixing, and it reduces during a lockdown. In some done by our fantastic directors of public health and parts of the country where the case rate has continued their teams? to rise, there is an argument for further ensuring that we do not reach the level of contact that is at the root of Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely. We are doing precisely the virus spreading. The challenge is how to calibrate that. The way it works where it works best is that the big the lockdown to get the virus under control while doing national system makes the immediate and rapid contact the minimum damage to the economy and to education. with people who test positive—for more than half of 197 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 198 Regulations Regulations people that is immediately successful—and then when Local action has proved to be one of our most contacts are harder to make the data is passed to the important lines of defence. Where firm action has been local teams, which do not have the scale to do the taken—for instance in Leicester, or in Bolton, where we immediate, rapid contacting but do have the boots on flattened the curve—our local approach has inevitably the ground and the local knowledge. That combination produced different sets of rules in different parts of the of the two is what works best where it works well. country, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) set out. We have already moved Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): My right towards simpler national rules that are centred on the hon. Friend is making a compelling case, but will he rule of six, and we are now acting to simplify and bear in mind that in the west midlands we are concerned standardise the rules at a local level. that yesterday’s change was made on the basis of neatness, The regulations set out three levels of alert: medium, not of medical need? Will he reassure me that he will high and very high. The medium alert level, which will always listen carefully to the West Midlands Mayor, cover most of the country, will consist of the current Andy Street, as these matters all develop? national measures. This includes the rule of six and the closure of hospitality at 10 pm. The high alert level Matt Hancock: Yes. The introduction of the three-level reflects the interventions in many local areas at the system means that, in some areas where the local area moment and that aims to reduce household-to-household has been working so effectively to get the curve flattened, transmission by preventing social mixing between different as in the west midlands, under the leadership of Andy households indoors, with the rule of six outdoors. That Street—there has been a rise in the past few days of is super-simple: no household mixing socially indoors data, but essentially a huge amount of progress has and the rule of six outdoors. been made—changes have had to be made. However, I will absolutely recommit to working with Andy Street, The very high alert level will apply where transmission who is an incredibly effective voice for the west midlands, rates are rising most rapidly and where the NHS will to make sure that what we can do together can best soon be under unbearable pressure without further deliver to control the virus in the west midlands. I pay restrictions. In those areas the Government will set a tribute to my right hon. Friend, who makes the case on baseline of prohibiting social mixing, while allowing this so effectively, because protecting our economy and households to mix in public outdoor spaces, because protecting our health are not alternatives. We must act that is where the risk of transmission is lowest, as long and keep the virus under control to protect lives and as the rule of six is followed. That baseline is set out in livelihoods. I strongly believe that every one of us, the very high alert level regulations being considered young or old, has the ability to suppress the virus today. Pubs and bars will be closed, and we will advise through the actions we take and the best way to protect against travel into and out of very high-risk areas. the vulnerable, support the NHS and protect the economy We also offer a package of support for individuals, is to get the rate of transmission down. businesses and councils. That includes more support for I turn to the steps we are taking to do that and, local test and trace, which many have asked for, more therefore,the instruments before the House today.Yesterday, funding for local enforcement and the offer of help the Prime Minister provided an update on the measures from the armed services, as well as the job support we are taking, which centre on three local covid alert scheme announced by the Chancellor. That is best done levels in England. as a team effort and, wherever possible, we want to build local support on the ground before we introduce these Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The measures. So in each area we will work with local rate of transmission varies significantly within the eight government leaders on the extra measures that need to different districts of North Yorkshire. When we are be taken. We do not rule out further restrictions in the looking at putting different areas into different tiers, hospitality,leisure, entertainment, or personal care sectors, can we look at that by district rather than at county but retail, schools and universities will remain open. level? Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): On buying-in the Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely, and I will go further local community, would the Secretary of State consider than that: we look at this at sub-district level, if that is having a Government postcode checker so that people appropriate. In High Peak we put four wards into level 2 know exactly where they should be, in having the three and the rest of the wards stayed in level 1. So we are tiers? prepared to look at the sub-district level if that is appropriate. Some districts within North Yorkshire have Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): individual outbreaks in individual institutions that we That was my idea. are managing, and we should not mistake that for general community transmission and therefore put those Matt Hancock: My friend, the hon. Member for areas into a higher level than is necessary. I am happy to Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), says from go through the local epidemiology from near Thirsk a sedentary position that that was his idea, but success that affects my hon. Friend’s constituency. has many fathers and I can tell my hon. Friend the In a sense, that brings us to the point of these local Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans) that such a postcode covid alert levels. These are the first statutory instruments checker was launched this morning. I will send him the to be debated under our commitment to consult Parliament link. It is still in beta, so it will be constantly improved, on significant national measures that have effect in the not least to ensure that, if a postcode covers an area whole of England or are UK-wide and, wherever possible, that is in two different levels, that is clear. That is being to hold votes before the regulations come into force. sorted at the moment. A postcode checker is a great That is what we are doing today. idea. It tells you the level of local risk. Furthermore, the 199 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 200 Regulations Regulations [Matt Hancock] Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): The Secretary of State talks about a regulation on pubs closing at NHS covid app, which has now been downloaded by 10 o’clock, which has been in force for four weeks. There over 17 million people, has a link to the local alert level may be some undoubted positives for health, but we see as well. some negatives with people amassing together on public To turn back to the measures before us, we will keep transport and in the streets. Do the positives outweigh the measures under constant review. The overarching the negatives, as far as the science is concerned? regulations sunset after six months, but regulation 8(1) of statutory instrument 1105 makes clear that the allocation Matt Hancock: Yes, I believe that they do, and I will of a particular area to local alert level 3 will automatically give three reasons why I think these measures are expire after 28 days. We will work with local areas on the right ones. The first is that we already now have the level they need to be at and that work continues at evidence from accident and emergency departments pace. Decisions to move local areas between the levels that we have seen a reduction in alcohol-related admissions will be considered by the JBC, working across Government late at night, after the 10 pm curfew. That is important and with local government on the normal weekly cycle. in its own right, but it is also a proxy, a measure of how While, of course, there will be times when we need to act much people are drinking late at night. Therefore, it is quickly to contain the virus, we want to give the House evidence that there is less mixing and less drinking late the opportunity to consider the measures on the medium at night. and high local alert levels, and the baseline measures for the very high alert level. I urge the House to support the The second is that, while people may be coming out measures set out today. and mixing after 10 pm, they are doing so largely outside, when they would otherwise be mixing inside the premises; Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): The Secretary it is just easier to photograph outside. of State mentions that they will work with local authorities The final point, though, and the appeal I make to when moving authorities between areas. Will he also the House on this, is as follows: since, sadly, in order to give time to measures that local authorities may already control this virus, we need to reduce the amount of be taking, such as in Newcastle-under-Lyme, to see social contact, and since we are trying to protect, as their effect before moving areas from one tier to another? much as is possible, education and work, that essentially Matt Hancock: Yes, that is a very important point. leavessocialisingastheotherpartof life—of activity—where Taking into account all local considerations, and working people transmit the virus. It is therefore understandable with the local director of public health and political that Governments around the world and around this leadership, is important to get exactly that sort of United Kingdom, Governments of all different stripes consideration into the decisions. and political persuasions, have all come to broadly the same conclusion that it is necessary to restrict socialising, I would like to set out, as the Prime Minister did because that way we reduce the transmission with the yesterday, the details of where we have reached with the least damage to education and the economy. While there Liverpool city region. Liverpool will move on to level 3 is both direct and proximate evidence for the positive tomorrow. As well as the baseline measures—that is, as impact of this measure, there is also the strategic point well as closing pubs and bars—gyms, leisure centres, that, if we wanted to control the virus and we were not betting shops, adult gaming centres and casinos will to do this, we would have to do something else, and as a also close. I thank all the local authorities that have matter of policy choice we want to protect education been working with us to keep the virus under control, and protect work. but there is more work to do. The regulations under consideration today include I will now come to my concluding remarks. We know measures on the obligations for businesses. Statutory only too well the damage this lethal virus can inflict, the instrument 1005 makes it a legal requirement for a strain it can put on our NHS and the way it can upend range of premises to collect, retain and, where relevant, our closest relationships and our freedom to do the disclose contact details as part of NHS Test and Trace. things we love. I know that we are asking a lot of the Statutory instrument 1008 allows for fixed penalty notices British people, but we also know that together we can to be given for breaches of covid-secure business guidance shift this curve, and we are now called upon to do it in various settings,primarily hospitality.These are amended once more. The measures before the House today will by SI 1046, which adds the need for a range of premises help in that fight, and I commend the regulations to to displayinformation about the need to wear face coverings. the House. SI 1029 increases the fines for those flouting targeted action to close specific public places that are a threat to Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Just public health. Although SI 1029 was intended to deliver before I call the shadow Secretary of State, it will be the 10 pm closing time when laid, the elements relating obvious to the House, both those in the Chamber and to the 10 pm closing time are superseded by the local those watching around the building, that I have more alert level system. The powers in SI 1029 are therefore than 80 people who are trying to catch my eye and that revoked. In practice, the effect of SI 1029 is to deliver we have until 6 pm to conclude the debate. I am afraid enforcement against individual places that have been that, in order to be fair to everybody, because I appreciate flouting the rules, which is the one of the top demands that this is not an occasion for long-thought-out speeches of councils in their fight against coronavirus. I know on matters of principle, but on matters to do with that most people and most businesses have been doing individual constituencies, and to try to give as many their bit. These changes are there to ensure that the vast people from as many parts of the country as possible majority of responsible businesses are not undermined the chance to contribute, we will start with a time limit by others that are not following the rules. of three minutes. 201 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 202 Regulations Regulations 2.47 pm Just as we have to protect our NHS, we cannot allow the mass, industrial halt to elective surgery and delays in Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): treatment never seen before in the history of the NHS. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have heard your message We have to mobilise our national health service to loud and clear; I will endeavour to be brief and not to perform the care for non-covid patients as well. The detain the House for too long, given the points you have decision in March, although entirely understandable—I rightly made. do not criticise the Government for taking it—has The House will understand that we are grappling with bequeathed us waiting lists of 4 million. Today there are a virus that spreads with speed and severity. Throughout 111,000 people waiting beyond 12 months for treatment. this crisis, we have urged the Government to adopt an In January of this year,there were just 1,600. Three million approach with the strategic aim of suppressing the virus people have missed out on vital cancer screening. One and bringing the R below 1 in order to save lives, in three cancer patients has said that their treatment has minimise harm and keep our children in school. That been impacted by the effects of covid. I make these has to be our priority, and no one should be surprised points not to criticise the Secretary of State but to that, as we are in autumn and going into winter, that reinforce the point that we have to protect our national presents us with immense challenges. health service as we go into the winter months. Before the summer, the Academy of Medical Sciences, I know that no Member across this House is complacent in a report commissioned by the Government, modelled about these matters. Every hon. and right hon. Member that we could see 119,000 deaths between September is united and determined to see infection rates reduce 2020 and June 2021. The academy also warned, as did and care improved. I know that everyone across this we, that without an effective test, trace and isolate House wants to see the immense backlog in non-covid regime the virus would get out of control. Sadly, we care tackled. I know that none of us wants to see this were proved correct. The Secretary of State has run virus let rip and leave the weakest and the frail to fend through the numbers on the prevalence of the virus, but for themselves. So I do not come to this House to I will just underline the point that hospital admissions caricature the position of any hon. Member.Our differences are rising. are about how we apply the tools we have at our disposal, Yesterday, there were 3,665 patients in hospital in and how we confront this, the biggest public health England, 568 more than on 23 March when we went crisis for 100 years. into lockdown. Since September, 856 patients have been We know, as the Secretary of State said, that the virus admitted to critical care across England, Wales and thrives on close human contact, especially where air is Northern Ireland—more with every week that goes by. stagnant and in conditions that are poorly ventilated. The largest number of critical admissions are in the We know that the virus is airborne. We know that north-west, north-east, Yorkshire and the midlands. fundamentally our best defences are hand hygiene, More than 100 patients are on ventilation for covid distancing, mask wearing, and avoiding crowds. But we across the north-east and Yorkshire.More than 130 patients also know that a full national lockdown stretching for are on ventilation across the north-west. weeks and weeks, like we had through April, with a rule, A disproportionate number of those in critical care effectively, of one-household contact—a rule of one, today are from poorer backgrounds and from black, indeed, for some people—would be disastrous for society. Asian and minority ethnic communities. That is a reminder Again, I do not believe that anyone in the House is that covid thrives on and exaggerates inequalities, and proposing that. that any long-term covid strategy cannot just rely on a The question is what measures can be taken now to vaccine but demands an all-out assault on health inequalities bring R below 1 without resorting to that full lockdown. as well. We know that when 8 million children returned to Just as hospital beds fill, there are more concerns school, that would have put upward pressure on infection about the availability of beds for the rest of winter. Last rates. I am critical of the Government for not providing week, there were warnings that some hospitals across the extra testing capacity that would have been needed, the north of England are set to run out of beds for as should have been obvious. Yet we must do everything covid patients within days, and NHS Providers reminded we can to keep our children in school. The implications us that the sustained physical, psychological and emotional of children not being in school are devastating for their pressure on health staff is threatening to push them life chances and development. We know that crowded beyond their limits. The British Medical Association is public transport puts upward pressure on infection saying that without stringent measures rapidly introduced, rates, but I do not believe that any Member of this the NHS and its workforce will very quickly be House would consider it sensible to close public transport overwhelmed. This House cannot overstate how serious networks—to close the underground or to close the the situation is. Metrolink across Manchester. We know we have to Yes, as the Secretary of State said, our clinicians have encourage people to work from home, and many are made extraordinary strides in treatment. We know that doing that, but we also know that there are many who steroid and antiviral drugs will help improve mortality, cannot work from home, and they should be protected but we also know that when infections rise, as night with access to mass testing—particularly NHS staff. I follows day, hospitalisations rise, and, sadly and tragically, hope that the Government get on with routine testing of that means that more will die as well. For those who frontline NHS staff. We have repeatedly called for the avoid hospitalisation, many can be afflicted with serious, Government to do that. long-term, debilitating health problems—so-called long That then therefore leaves us with few levers to pull. covid. None of us knows whether those conditions—that That brings me to hospitality, because—I am sorry to syndrome—will last for the rest of their lives or whether have to say it—pubs and bars do bring people together. they will recover in the next 12 months. Every Member across this House knows that after a few 203 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 204 Regulations Regulations [Jonathan Ashworth] such as Wolverhampton, West Bromwich or parts of Birmingham need clarity about their future and local drinks people lose their inhibitions. It should come as leaders need reassurance that there is a plan. Local no surprise to us that social distancing breaks down, leaders need reassurance that if they are put into a tier and if bars and pubs are poorly ventilated—as, sadly, there is a plan to get them out of it and moved into the some are—then airborne transmission is more of a risk. lower tiers. It is not clear at the moment why particular I know that Members will point out to me, as they have areas are in the medium tier and not in, for example, in the past few days, that the data show that household tier 2. I do not want to pick on my near parliamentary interaction is the biggest driver of transmission. That is neighbour, the hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward correct—but how does the virus get into the household Argar), but I hope he can explain when he responds to in the first place? It does not come down the chimney, the debate why the city of Leicester is in tier 2 with like Father Christmas: someone brings it into the house. restrictions yet his constituency, where the infection rate If we cannot close, schools, workplaces or shops and is 150 per 100,000, is not. Why is North East Derbyshire, cannot shut public transport, the only lever that we where the rate is 164 per 100,000, not in that tier? Why is have is hospitality, so, yes, we support the restrictions Barrow, where the rate is 277 per 100,000, not in that announced yesterday by the Secretary of State and the tier? There are many other examples across the House. Prime Minister. We know from experience in Bolton People living in areas where restrictions are in place and Leicester that the pub closures had an impact—the would like to be reassured that there is some consistency virus is still prevalent in my city and in Bolton—but in these matters and that decisions are made transparently. without the closures the virus would have been driven I do not want to pick on the hon. Gentleman’s area, but up further. he will see the point I am trying to make. Wetherefore support the announced measures, difficult Of course, the areas where hospitality has closed as they are. Indeed, we support the measures aimed at need support to save jobs and protect livelihoods. At the constraining the time people can spend in the pub. I moment, there is a financial package on offer for tier 3 understand the Secretary of State’s procedural points —the Opposition do not think it goes far enough; we do about the instruments before us and the 10 pm curfew, not think it is adequate—but there is no financial and he knows that I know that many Members are support for tier 2, even though there will be a significant deeply sceptical about that curfew. We will not stand in impact on the local economy, as we have seen in Leicester. the way of the passing of the statutory instrument, On tiers 2 and 3, could the Minister, in responding to but if the House’s procedures had allowed it, we would the debate, say a little bit about care homes? What does have proposed an amendment to implement the Welsh he say to the thousands of families who, under tier 2 scenario, where there is drinking-up time, off sales are and now tier 3, will not be able to visit their loved ones banned after 10 o’clock and there is no hard stop at in care homes? The impact on a loved one in a care 10 pm. home of not being able to see their family is immense, especially in the winter months as we run up to Christmas. We have all seen the pictures that the hon. Member What steps will the Government take to support those for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) mentioned, areas in tiers 2 and 3 so that families can safely resume although I must say to many of my hon. Friends who visiting their loved ones? Will he commit to a 24-hour made the point about city centres being full of revellers turnaround in test results in care homes so that care after leaving the pub that it is not as though we have homes and residents are protected? seen such pictures only once the 10 pm curfew was This brings me to testing and tracing. One of the introduced—we have seen them before in our city centres, great strides we made in Leicester was door-to-door sadly. I have been on public transport after 11 pm! This testing. Can the Minister guarantee that any areas in is a longstanding issue. The 10 pm curfew does not help tier 2 and tier 3 will get capacity for door-to-door it, but let us not pretend it has caused all these issues. testing? Back in August, the Government promised that local areas would have more control over test and trace, Steve Brine: If the hon. Gentleman could amend the with dedicated teams backed up by local authorities, instrument, would he amend it so that off licences cannot but under this tiered system it was reported yesterday sell after 10 pm? that only areas in tier 3 would have greater local control over contact tracing and testing. Why was this not put Jonathan Ashworth: I think I made that point, but, in place months ago, and why has it not been put in yes, I most certainly would. If I had proposed that place everywhere across the country, not just for tier 3? amendment, I hope the hon. Gentleman would have This is the point that the right hon. Member for Forest joined us in the Division Lobby, although I know that of Dean (Mr Harper) made, and he made it extremely since leaving the Government he has been very lax well. about going through the Lobby with the Opposition— I am sorry, but the testing and tracing regime has [Interruption.] I drank my water too quickly as the hon become a broken system that continues to misfire. We Gentleman’s intervention was shorter than I anticipated— even have SAGE now warning that it is having a marginal [Interruption.] I beg your pardon; I assure Members it impact on transmission, as the right hon. Gentleman is not the virus. said. To be frank, and I know Conservative Member Many Members affected by this in recent days will will groan at this, if Serco has not come up with a know that the decisions made to put an area into solution by now, it never will. Scrap the contract, put restriction will be effective only if they are made in public health and local NHS partnerships in control of conjunction with local people. I know that extremely testing, and invest in the widespread backward contact well as a Leicester Member,where we have had restrictions tracing we need. It is still only in its infancy, but it is for 105 or 106 days. People in towns such as Bury or absolutely vital to getting in control of the virus, and we Bolton or across Greater Manchester or in boroughs need to expand it at a local level. 205 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 206 Regulations Regulations Munira Wilson: Does the hon. Member agree with I am sorry to say that SAGE advised the Government me that one of the other reasons why SAGE said that to take action in March, but the Prime Minister was too test, trace and isolate is having a marginal impact is slow. After the Prime Minister spoke yesterday, we saw because the “isolate” part is not working, and that that yet again he has been advised to take action and rather than slapping £10,000 fines on people for not has so far refused. It is the same virus, the same delays, self-isolating, what we actually need to do is provide the same country and the same Government making incentives and support so that people isolate? the same mistakes again. Our constituents will ask, “Is history repeating itself?” If these tiers do not work, then Jonathan Ashworth: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. what? Tier 4? Tier 5? What is the plan? Well, there isn’t I agree entirely with her. I have been having these one. exchanges with the Secretary of State on almost a We had whack-a-mole—a fairground game—but there twice-weekly basis, and when I go over the remarks I was never a strategy, just a soundbite from the circus have made at the Dispatch Box and remind myself of ring showman. Wehave had exaggerated claims,complaints what he has said at the Dispatch Box in case I can catch when challenged and a lack of transparency with the him out, throw quotes back at him and all that kind of public, but further action and a clear plan are needed. stuff, I have noticed that we were making this argument Just at the time when hospital admissions are rising months and months ago. It is not good enough just to again, we have the Prime Minister hanging on to a rising give one £500 payment; people need support to isolate. balloon, and—to quote “Withnail and I”—not knowing If they are poor and on a zero-hours contract, and they whether to are forced to make a choice between not feeding their “let go before it’s too late or hang on and keep getting higher”. family or going to work, they will go to work. That has been one of the most significant failures in the test, We have the highest deficit in Europe, the worst trace and isolate regime, and the Government, I am recession in Europe and are now not even pretending to afraid to say, still have not fixed it. We would argue follow the science. We will not divide the House against again that they have to put testing and tracing in the these restrictions, because we believe they are necessary hands of public health and local NHS partnerships, as far as they go, but I fear that the Government now because unless we get testing sorted out, we will have a need to go further. The sooner that the Prime Minister never-ending rollercoaster of restrictions, while deaths is clear with the British public, the better. and damage continue. 3.7 pm When it comes to the overall set of restrictions announced yesterday,the fundamental question for us as an Opposition Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I is not whether they go too far, but whether the overall support these restrictions with a heavy heart. On balance, package in fact goes far enough. A question was posed I will be supporting the Government this evening, but by the chief medical officer himself at the Downing I want to make just a few quick points. Street press conference yesterday. He commented that I would be very careful about subscribing to the the areas worst hit by covid will need extra measures on Vallance/Whitty orthodoxy that informed these regulations, top of those announced on Monday if infection rates while not at all examining very carefully respectable are to be significantly lowered. The question is: will the bodies of medical opinion to the contrary. I would cite measures announced yesterday reverse the rising tide of particularly the Heneghan/Sikora/Gupta line.It is important hospital admissions and reverse the rising tide of critical that the Secretary of State and his ministerial team care admissions? I obviously hope so; but I am sorry, I address those things head-on and treat them with the respect fear it will not. The rate of growth in the virus may at that they deserve. this stage be quicker in the northern regions, but the The Secretary of State has my utmost sympathy. embers are burning brightly everywhere else as well, and When coming into office, he opened a box marked I fear further action is going to be needed. “public health” and found tools for doing all sorts of The Prime Minister says he follows the science. Yesterday things, such as sorting out lifestyle problems—obesity, the SAGE minutes that came out—after the press smoking, diet and all of that. I suspect that he found conference, frustratingly—warned of a very large epidemic very few that were geared towards dealing with infectious with catastrophic consequences, and said that the burden diseases, particularly this infectious disease. He has of a large second wave would fall disproportionately on done some good things to try to remedy that in a very the frailest in society, and on those on lower incomes short space of time. May I suggest to him, to sort out and from the black, Asian and minority ethnic community. the shadow Secretary of State’s obsession with Serco, That last point is exactly what is currently happening in that he looks again at the Public Health Laboratory our intensive care units across the country. Service, which was in its second incarnation as the The same minutes reveal that the Government were Health Protection Agency when it was abolished in advised to close all hospitality, move all university 2012. He might find in such a thing the means to deal teaching online and put in place a national circuit break with infectious diseases of this sort in the future. three weeks ago, with immediate action. The Government We need to be careful about groupthink, confirmation rejected that advice, presumably in favour of the measures bias, a thin evidential basis and uncertainty masquerading that we are debating today. Of course, it is only advice as certainty. There is a huge margin of uncertainty with to Government—Ministers are perfectly within their all this, and we all need to develop a level of humility in rights to choose what advice to take and not to take; to our attitudes towards dealing with this crisis. That is govern is indeed to choose—but the Prime Minister and why I shall be supporting the Government this evening. the Secretary of State have come to the Dispatch Box week after week and told us that they are following the Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) science. So at what precise moment did the Prime Minister (Lab): I cannot let the right hon. Gentleman get away stop following the science? with that. In 2016, Operation Cygnus was very clear 207 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 208 Regulations Regulations [Debbie Abrahams] these SIs today yet the public are bewildered and confused about the previous changes. That has resulted in many about what needed to happen. It was a question not of people not listening anymore. They just want to use if there was going to be a pandemic; it was when. The their common sense and get on with their lives. They want Government failed to introduce all the recommendations more clarity. There is a minority who do not follow the from that exercise. I will not let them get away with this. rules, but why should everybody else be penalised and have their civil liberties affected as well? Of course we Dr Murrison: The hon. Lady can do what she likes. want more enforcement of sensible, common-sense rules, The Secretary of State is dealing with the situation that and we need resources to be able to do that locally, in he found at the time. Developing the National Institute addition to hand washing, social distancing and face for Health Protection in short order from the disaster masks, which I will return to shortly. that was Public Health England was, I think, a very good I have spoken to the chief executives of both my local effort, but there is much more to be done, as I know he hospitals. They tell me that they are under increasing appreciates. pressure and that there is a spike in admissions above May I sound a cautionary note for the Secretary of the normal expected, but I am also told that the majority State? We have gone to great measures to close down who have been admitted are over 70. That is not different schools, and I appreciate the need for that. That was from the start of the pandemic, so it should have been informed, of course, by the Imperial College model, no surprise to the Government. which was a flu model, in essence, and was inadequate The second part of the SIs sets out more restrictions for this particular virus. He will know—I hope he on business. I am contacted every day by businesses does—of the work published in September by the University who are in trouble and constituents who are worried of Edinburgh group under Ackland, which suggests about losing their jobs. Two thousand more people have that that certainly did suppress admissions to ITU. It become unemployed in Halton since March. Nobody certainly protected the NHS, but probably over time, understands the reasoning behind the 10 pm curfew for unless we get a vaccine, it will cause more deaths directly hospitality. I have been inundated by constituents about from covid, quite apart from the incidentals for other the closure of gyms. Many of my constituents tell me diseases, the loss of liberty and livelihood. The Secretary how much has been done to make them safer and about of State needs to understand that and that there is an the impact it will have on their physical and mental alternative view. If we do not get a vaccine, I fear, health if they close. They want to see the evidence and paradoxically, that we will see more deaths, not fewer, as reasoning for closing them. a result of some of the interventions that we have put in We do not hear enough from the Government on the place. Of course, Ackland was unsighted on this latest unintended consequences of restrictions on healthcare set, but the logic would suggest that those measures too and the impact on diseases such as cancer and heart may, over time, if we get a third and fourth wave, cause disease. Many of my constituents do not support the more trouble than they solve. It is a respectable piece of measures to put Halton into tier 3, and I share their work and the Secretary of State needs to take account scepticism and concern. I have not seen the evidence to of it. give my support to them. We seem to be being used as a In all this, we simply do not know and we are learning guinea pig. all the time. We have to accept, I think, the expertise of We need to better protect our elderly and vulnerable. those advising Ministers and that we have experts for a We need to better enforce the rules that are sensible and reason, but there is an alternative view. Unless we get a common sense. We need to sort out the test, trace and vaccine—goodness me, I hope we do—I think we may isolate system, which is not having the impact that it find that the cure is worse than the disease in terms of should. Weneed more competence from this Government lives lost directly to covid, incidental lives lost to other and better data to be shared with the public and MPs. common diseases—stroke, heart attack and particularly This Government have got many things wrong, and cancer—loss of liberty, loss of livelihood and the compete they continue to do so. I have no trust in this Government trashing of our economy. That is what is at stake. I do and the way they are working. We need to ensure that not envy the Secretary of State in his work. we have competent and proper reasoning behind these decisions. 3.12 pm Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): It does appear that 3.14 pm anybody who questions or expresses doubts about the Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I Government’s approach to coronavirus is accused of want to focus my remarks on whether there is currently wanting to let the virus rip, which is patently untrue. I any viable alternative to the lockdown measures that support a number of the rules that have been introduced. have been put in place in my constituency. In my view, This is all about what the balance is, what is common there is not. The argument put forward by some is that sense, whether we are going too far the other way, the we could somehow isolate or protect the vulnerable, to impact on civil liberties, and what will work and have a allow the rest of us to carry on with our lives as normal, significant impact on trying to control the virus. That is but how realistic is that? We have to be clear about the where the debate is and why some of us are raising number of people that we are talking about. This is not questions. just about people in their 80s. Our current understanding These statutory instruments come on top of as many is that approximately one in every 200 people in their as four previous announcements between 14 September 50s and 60s affected by coronavirus will die. For people and 3 October on additional national or local restrictions. in their 70s and above, that figure is more like one in 10. The last was a few days ago on 3 October. There lies Taken together, those age groups add up to something part of the problem: we have another raft of rules in like 25 million people. How viable is it to keep them safe? 209 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 210 Regulations Regulations In answering that question, we must not compare it the north-west, is not helping. There is a widespread with how successfully we have been able to do that so feeling that lockdown was lifted in Liverpool city region far, because if we abandon lockdown measures for before cases had fallen far enough. The failings and everyone else, there will be one key difference. Right now, increasingly poor performance of the nationally arranged as we are all involved in the national effort to stop the test and trace system are making control of the virus much spread of the virus, we all play a part in keeping the harder. People are waiting many days to get results. levels of the virus low.That means that when a grandparent Many contacts of those testing positive are going untraced meets up with their grandchildren, their grandchildren until it is too late for isolation to make a big difference. probably do not have the virus. It means that when a The lack of discussion and candour until recently plumber turns up to fix a pensioner’s boiler, they probably and even engagement with local leaders, Mayors and do not have the virus. It means that when a carer arrives MPs means that there is a trust issue. That was worsened to help get an infirm person out of bed, they probably by yesterday’s briefing, at which the CMO suggested he do not have the virus. Most importantly, it means that was not confident that the tier 3 base measures would when an older person managing their chronic illnesses stop the epidemic growing, which the Prime Minister turns up to their next GP or hospital appointment, the told the House they would. We then learned from the receptionist, the nurses, the doctors and the people in SAGE minutes, as my hon. Friend the Member for the waiting room probably do not have the virus. That LeicesterSouth(JonathanAshworth)said,aboutwidespread is because we are all playing our part in trying to stop scientific advice not being followed three weeks ago. We the spread. need—I urge the Minister—more transparency and more If we were to let the virus spread among the rest of openness from Government. We do not have enough of the population, we can forget all of that. We would that. Let us have the information in real time and let us reach a point where, in every single one of those examples, work on it together. the vulnerable person would stand a very real chance of Most of all, we need proper financial support for the catching the virus because it would be rampant. That is people on Merseyside affected by these serious restrictions. the reality of the strategy that some are proposing. We Tier 3 measures are going to devastate some of our would effectively be telling 25 million people to play lowest-paid workers. We cannot defeat the virus on the Russian roulette every time they step outside their door— cheap and we should not do it on the basis of the living they can hug their grandchildren, but they run a real standards of the poorest. The assistance proposed so risk of catching a deadly disease if they do that. They far is inadequate to the task. can go to work, but they run a very real risk of catching According to the TUC, there are 41,000 people in the a deadly disease if they do that. Most importantly, if city region area who might benefit from the local furlough they go to their cancer screening, their radiotherapy or scheme, but there are many, many thousands more their chemotherapy, again, they run a very real risk of whose businesses will not be forced to close but who will catching a deadly disease. That is no choice at all. not benefit by one penny from these proposals or from But we do have a choice, and that is to persevere. It is this support. It is not enough. More is going to have to not easy, and I have no doubt that we are paying a be done to support local people in tier 3 areas and to terrible price in terms of the economy, our wellbeing prevent penury from following the pandemic. and our health, but I simply cannot see how that price would be outweighed by the loss of life on the scale we 3.20 pm would see and the restrictions we would have to put in place on 25 million people if we were to give up. I do John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The Government not think we can justify abandoning the older members are desperately trying to find that balance point between of our society to their fate—not when, if we buy them protecting livelihoods and protecting lives, and I am more time, I believe we will find other ways forward. grateful to them for all they are doing to try to bring Whether it is a vaccine or mass daily testing, science will that off, but the only way forward is to get maximum provide us with the solutions. I could be wrong. We buy-in from the public. There is no perfect set of rules could lose that battle in the long run, but we have not or laws that can be enforced. We do not have enough lost it yet, and I do not think the British people are police and that would require a mighty explanation ready to surrender; I know I am not. We must push on task, so the more they can do by means of persuasion, with these measures. the better. Sharing with the public the dangers and showing them how hand washing, distancing and not 3.17 pm mingling in enclosed spaces are going to work are the Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): The way forward. I am apprehensive about how much of this coronavirus situation on Merseyside is such that I accept is enforceable. that something serious needs to be done. Yesterday in Test and trace can work only if people who are traced Aintree University Hospital and the Royal Liverpool are willing to co-operate. Quite a lot of people leave University Hospital, there were 279 coronavirus-positive funny names, apparently, or they are not available when patients—the highest number in any English hospital. people are trying to contact them, or when they are told Thereissubstantialandwidespreadcommunitytransmission, that they are a contact, they decide they are too busy to with 600 cases per 100,000, and not only in student follow the procedures. They might genuinely be too areas. There is a worryingly high incidence of spread to busy and have real conflicts in their lives about looking vulnerable groups, particularly people over 65 years old, after relatives, sorting out children, cooking meals at and 31 are in critical care, so something definitely needs home or whatever it is, and it is very difficult suddenly to be done. to isolate if they do not have the property and the However,I worry that the way in which the Government means to do all that, so we need to carry them with us. have handled the pandemic and its manifestations so There needs to be a more energetic reliance on persuasion far, and the impact that this has had on the situation in and less on formal rules. 211 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 212 Regulations Regulations [John Redwood] I support the calls of the CMO, SAGE and others for a short circuit break to help drive down infection rates, My other worry about this strategy is that we need a but that should be at the national level. Any circuit plan B for the possibility that there is no early and break period should be used to undertake the transfer successful vaccine. We all hope that the Secretary of of test and trace to local public health departments. State is right and we all hope that, by spring, there is a That must be accompanied by full resource transfer. vaccine that works that can be produced at scale and Currently, less than 10% of the money used by local that enough people want to take it so the problem goes authorities at a local level has been reimbursed by the away, but there might not be and this might fall down Government. That is unjustifiable and unsustainable, on one or more of those requirements. I urge the and it must be resolved. Government to think through what is plan B, because In addition, the circuit break should be used first to we do not want this continuous cycle where the virus ensure that the NHS and social care are fully prepared. pops up, we impose controls, the virus goes down a bit, They must have adequate PPE. They must have flu we relax the controls and the virus pops up again. vaccines. They must have regular testing regimes. We That is deeply destructive to social life and community should identify vulnerable people for supportive shielding, life. It is going to destroy many more businesses and and not via some algorithm. We need to define exactly many more livelihoods. Many more jobs are going to be how we are going to support people in a way that does lost. Businesses need some greater certainty that they not mean they will be detrimentally isolated. We must will be able to trade, so I urge the Government to be also make sure we have simple, coherent messaging with more open with us about what is plan B for no vaccine local community engagement, and I support what the and more open with everyone about how long these Government are trying to do with the simplification. controls have to last and what their purposes are. We must also make sure that we have monitoring and The 10 o’clock rule has become the iconic one that is enforcement capacity. opposed by some and supported by others. The problem All workers and businesses need to be fully supported with it is that people find easy ways round it. They during any circuit break. We are at war with the virus. The comply with leaving the pub, but then congregate in Treasury needs to recognise that and respond adequately. each other’s homes and use off-licence booze. They Finally, the Government must recognise that covid is a might be breaking the rule of six, but feel that is a disease of poverty. tolerable thing to do. The police cannot go to everybody’s home to find out whether they are breaking the rule of 3.27 pm six, but they can enforce turning out the pubs. It might Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): I take this opportunity be worse for people to drink at home than to drink in to thank all those in my constituency who followed the the pub, so rules have their limitations. Let us get more rules when Leicestershire was being threatened with a buy-in by persuasion. That is our job as politicians. lockdown. Through their dedication and their following of the rules, we have managed to avoid it for now. 3.23 pm During that threat of lockdown, one of the key messages I brought to this House was the importance of Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) making sure that two key messages get through: where (Lab): I would like to make the following points based the affected area is and the measures that come into on my 20 years’ experience as a former public health place. I am therefore pleased to hear today that we have consultant. a simplification and a tier-based system that will allow Unfortunately, I do not believe that the new tier our constituents to understand the measures in place. system and measures that were introduced yesterday are With a postcode checker as well, it is even better. That sufficient to contain the virus. The localised approach was built, and I fed into the review led by Dame Mary will not work because of seeding. The virus travels Ney. She has produced a document on good practice for where people come from. I came down on the train areas going into lockdown. I suggest that Members yesterday—I talked to the hon. Member for Altrincham have a look at that document, because they can hold the and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady) about this point—and Government to account by the very nature of what is there might have been people who were asymptomatic written in it. who unknowingly have spread the virus, unfortunately. I was pleased to hear yesterday—it was repeated There may also have been people who wanted to exercise again today—that the Government acknowledge the their personal choice, who have the virus and knowingly difficulties of balancing health and the economy. It is a exposed people to that risk. Unless the Government are simple temptation to say, “Let’s just do it by generations prepared to set up roadblocks across the M1, M6, M62 and protect the shielded”, but the evidence shows that and all other routes to and from the north, I am afraid we cannot do that. Generational spread does happen, that, just as happened in the first wave in Italy, the virus and that is when the threat comes to our elderly and our will spread. shielded. To understand what we need to do now, we must What has happened this time is that we have a more understand how we got to this position. It is abundantly nuanced response from the Government, and I welcome clear, as has already been said, that the national test and that. It is good medicine to change as things progress, trace programme is not fit for purpose. In spite of clear but I want to focus on the future. I have some short-term WHO guidance, it was not fully operational in June suggestions for the Government, such as making sure when the first lockdown measures were eased, and as a we are clear with our signage about indicative dates, consequence it has failed to cope with the predicted rise changes and accountability. We need to be clear about in infections ever since. On top of that there were, the principles behind the decisions we take, so that unfortunately, significant specific failures. when someone asks, “Why can’t I sing?”, they can be told, 213 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 214 Regulations Regulations “Well, singing transmits the virus four times further.” they will not be able to sustain. So it seems we have a When those principles are clear, it becomes obvious how choice here: either we do not follow the science and to interpret the guidelines. instead impose the misery of prolonged tier 2 and tier 3 We want certainty for sectors, whether that is the restrictions in many areas with little economic support, wedding industry, events, the aerospace industry or the and cases and deaths will rise; or we follow the science travel industry. They need certainty on exactly what will and bring down transmission with a short national happen for them with guided points. They welcome circuit breaker and a reform to test, track, trace and timetables and they understand if things move, but a isolate. Frankly, the pandemic strategy so far has been clear direction at least is important. akin to throwing a glass of water on a chip pan fire, and I welcome the aim for a vaccine, but until we get there the Government need to change course today. I agree that a plan B would be useful. We have talked 3.33 pm about near patient testing, and I have raised those questions in this House. Could it be that, in the future, Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I before we come to speak in the Chamber, we have have three quick points. First, I welcome my right hon. 20-minute saliva test—it is bound to be negative—and Friend’s announcements on the tier system and, in then come in and carry on with our day-to-day life? particular, the granularity that has been allowed. In my Until we get there, I urge the Government to read the neighbouring borough of High Peak, we are seeing Health and Social Care Committee’s recommendations ward-based restrictions, and I pay tribute to my hon. on dealing with non-covid sites. At the end of the day, Friend the Member for High Peak (Robert Largan) for experience teaches us to help those who cannot and to his work on ensuring that that happens. I urge that there empower those who can. That should be the message should be more granularity in what we do, led by local that the Government take forward. health professionals. On the matter of hospitality, this is where I have to 3.30 pm declare an interest. My family has run a pub for 53 years, Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): Madam from my grandfather to my father and now my brother, Deputy Speaker, and they have never faced anything like this in all that “I am not confident, and nor is anybody confident, that the tier 3 time. I recognise why my right hon. Friend is doing what proposals for the highest rates…would be enough to get on top he is doing, and I agree with him that schools and of it.” workplaces have to be our priority, but we also have to Those were the words last night of the chief medical think about the businesses that have spent thousands on officer, but sadly the Government knew this in September, making themselves covid-ready and now face a very when SAGE scientists advised the immediate introduction uncertain future. Shift workers and those who work in of a list of measures including a circuit breaker. In the hospitalityarenowcompletelyexcludedfromanysocialising following days, the Prime Minister went ahead with with their friends, because the bars are simply not open only the work-from-home U-turn and the 10 pm curfew. at the time when they can go and enjoy themselves. Now we know the truth. Last night, we saw that the Also, people do not understand why there are differences SAGE minutes clearly stated that the curfew measure around the country.Why is Wales allowing a drinking-up was likely to have a marginal impact, as it also seems the time? Why does Northern Ireland have an 11 o’clock Government’s tiered approach will do. closing time? I say to my right hon. Friend that I will Further, after the initial lockdown, any semblance of support the Government’s measures today, but please economic normality that would have kept the public can we look at having some more flexibility? I would be safe was predicated on a comprehensive test, track and very happy to talk to him about some of the suggestions trace system, but with people still making vast round that my brothers have put to me during this debate, trips to get a test and risking their details being lost in including on off-licence sales, drinking-up time and an Excel spreadsheet never to be seen again, it is clear perhaps more flexibility on Friday and Saturday nights, that we do not have a comprehensive testing system. which are the lifeblood of hospitality industries around And how can we forget Operation Moonshot? Salford the country, particularly in areas outside the big cities. was to be one of the pilot areas testing the Moonshot My final point is about this place, which is leading programme. However, my local council confirmed to the way. We are sitting here in a socially distanced way. me this morning that, some time ago now, it asked the We are the most visible workplace in the country and we Department of Health and Social Care to share the are abiding fully by the rules. However, if we have a clinical validity data behind this new technology. To Division this evening, we are putting ourselves at risk, date, that query remains unanswered, and until this and we are putting the staff of the House at risk. As the morning Salford City Council had been told to pause Clerk said in evidence to the Procedure Committee the programme. So can the Secretary confirm his current yesterday, if we do not have enough security staff able plans for the development of mass testing? to come into this place, we cannot open. I want to see We all know what needs to be done. Any resumption this place open. I want to see us scrutinising what the of normal life depends on bringing the infection rate Government are doing and to be able to have these down, followed by robust test, trace and isolate systems, debates. We will be able to do that a lot better and a lot but for this to happen, we need clear direction from more safely if we vote in a safe way, and that means Government, and our businesses and workers need allowing the House to make a decision about whether economic support to do what is required of them. So we return to remote voting. far, the Chancellor’s support still does not extend to the more than 3 million people who are excluded, and the 3.35 pm watering down of economic support means that, even John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): There is a huge principle under tier 2, many businesses and workers across Greater to be debated here. At the heart of it is the false Manchester will see a significant drop in income that dichotomy posed again by the Secretary of State today 215 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 216 Regulations Regulations [John Spellar] In this context, I would argue that we need to work with the public, encouraging people to take sensible between hospitality and the economy and jobs, as though precautions for themselves. We all know the principal hospitality were not part of the real economy and steps that need to be taken. We know that hand hygiene millions of jobs did not depend on it. Tell that to the and distancing are key to protecting ourselves and others. workers and businesses owners in pubs and clubs, We should encourage people to take that responsibility restaurants and cafes, hotels and wedding venues, theatres on themselves more and more. There should always be a and cinemas, betting shops, bingo halls and casinos and presumption in doing so that we should protect as much gyms, all of which are facing really hard times and of people’s freedom as possible. There are some simple challenges. They are facing closures, ruin and job losses steps that can mitigate some of the worst effects of these on a massive scale. At the same time, as we heard earlier, measures. Exempting young children from the rule of Treasury support is weakening and the Chancellor of six is one that has been taken in other parts of the the Exchequer is not only losing the cost of support but United Kingdom. Getting rid of the 10 pm curfew, or suffering a major loss of revenue. softeningit,asothershavesuggested,isanother.Introducing Unfortunately, the approach seems to be driven less testing at airports to mitigate the hugely damaging by deep analysis and more by the dreaded doctrine of quarantine arrangements is another, and I hope that we “something must be done”. This is something; therefore will see some movement on that in the next few weeks. we must do this irrespective of proportionality, outcome I make no bones about it: I would go further. As I or impact. But this time it is even worse. It seems to be said last week in the House, in my view, it is wrong to “something needs to be seen to be done” without any use public health legislation designed to control infected cost-benefit analysis or considering the impact on a people to direct the lives of an entire population. But beleaguered industry and a workforce facing mass most immediately, I am concerned for my constituents redundancies. Accordingly, I and many other Members in Greater Manchester,who have been in extra restrictions are unclear about the basis, either at a local or national level, since late July. They were lifted for 12 hours, as my right of these proposals. The Chief Secretary talked earlier of hon. Friend the Secretary of State remembers very well, anecdotes. I want a bit more than anecdotes. and I remember the tears that I heard cried by constituents Sir Richard Leese, the leader of Manchester City when those restrictions were restored. In tier 2, we can Council, rightly said on Radio 4 today that a far better at least meet friends and family outdoors, but after two way than closures and curfews is to give powers to local and a half months of controls, we must be told how and councils to take rapid action to shut down non-compliant when the restrictions will be lifted. This half-alive state that venues. In my authority of Sandwell, which has an we have come to inhabit cannot be allowed to become enviable contact rate of 85% led by the excellent public permanent. health director Dr McNally, we have had one case linked to a hospitality venue, and that was early on in 3.41 pm the pandemic in a pub in Smethwick. The Express & Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I begin, I am Star, our evening newspaper, investigated and found afraid, by declaring my registered interest in Glint Pay, that across the Black Country,which is home to 1.25 million for reasons which will become apparent. people, there have been just 10 such incidences of covid, The problem with today’s statutory instruments is again all early in the pandemic. that they implement a strategy to suppress the virus until In his opening speech, the Secretary of State did not a vaccine has been found. Indeed, my right hon. Friend give an indication of how long he thinks this can go on. the Secretary of State tweeted: It could last almost indefinitely unless we develop a “Our strategy is to suppress the virus, supporting education, vaccine, an event that, as the Prime Minister candidly the economy and the NHS until a vaccine can keep us safe.” admitted yesterday, is uncertain and would not be 100% That runs into three problems. The first is that a vaccine effective. One of the tests of an exit strategy is considering may not come. The second is that a vaccine may not be how we contain the virus if we are not able to eliminate effective. The third is that all this is propped up on it, as we have had to do with major diseases throughout quantitative easing and ultra-cheap credit. Indeed, now history and as many of parts of the world still have to we are reading in the newspapers about negative interest do today. rates, and this is why I declared the interest. I think you have to have a peculiarly high level of economic education 3.38 pm to believe that we can head towards £745 billion of QE Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): and ultra-low or negative interest rates and that all this It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for will not be a problem. I will not say any more about it. I Warley (John Spellar) who closed on a critical point. think it will be a problem, and it is precarious indeed I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the Government’s strategy is propped up on such a for the good faith that is being shown today in fulfilling monetary policy. the promises given before about bringing these matters Only yesterday, I asked my right hon. Friend the to the House. I hope that the same will be done in future Prime Minister by when he expected to have vaccinated if there are to be any measures to move areas between the vulnerable population. Of course he was good enough tiers in the three-tier system. to reply that he could not give me a date and made We all recognise that the Government have a difficult reference to SARS, which took place 18 years ago and and unenviable balance to strike. We want to ensure the for which we still do not have a vaccine. I was grateful to most effective response to the virus, while preserving him for his honesty. vital treatment for other illnesses, such as cancer, and Personally, I think that privately the Government are maintaining as far as possible normal family and social a little more optimistic about the AstraZeneca vaccine, life as well as jobs and livelihoods. which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister mentioned, 217 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 218 Regulations Regulations but here is the thing: even suppose the Government had contact information. We are reaching only 68.6% of vaccinated the public with a successful, safe vaccine by those contacts in total, according to the latest data, Easter or possibly the summer, that still leaves our which is the lowest percentage. That means that overall economy and Government spending propped up on we are reaching only about half of the contacts of people ultra-cheap credit. The problem with that is that the who test positive. Bank of England has told us on the Treasury Committee that if inflation comes in it will have to, under its mandate, Munira Wilson: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree fight inflation. That would effectively mean pulling the that the data also shows that the tracing rates for local plug on Government spending. This is precarious indeed. authority or regional public health teams are somewhere I turn in the last few seconds to the Great Barrington between 90% and 100%, whereas the central contact declaration. No one can deny that it is well motivated. tracing percentage is only somewhere in the 60s? That is Indeed, it says: more evidence that we should be running this locally. “Keeping these measures”— Mr Harper: I do think there is some evidence to show lockdown policies around the world— that local teams are better. I work closely with my local “in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, director of public health in Gloucestershire—I am sure with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.” every Member of the House does with theirs—the I have been looking closely at the critiques of the declaration. fantastic Sarah Scott, who has recently been promoted Professor James Naismith of the University of Oxford wrote: to a wider brief, and her team. I would have real “Humility and willingness to consider alternatives are hallmarks confidence that if she were given the resources, she and of good science.” her team would do a fantastic job of tracing contacts For the reasons that I have given, I am convinced that quickly, getting to them, working with them to explain the Government must find an alternative strategic plan why isolating was important and perhaps being able to between the Great Barrington declaration and where work with them to identify some of the barriers that, as we are today. my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) mentioned, might stop them isolating. 3.44 pm If we were to do that and be much more effective, that would enable us not only to live with this virus, but to Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I have live meaningful lives where people could have more heard one or two people say that the Government do social contact; they could have more ability to have those not have a plan, but I do not agree with that. I think the important contacts—the Secretary of State acknowledged Government have a good plan, which they set out in they were important. That was in the Government’s May. I read it at the time and thought it was very sound. original plan and they should lean into it. The Government My problem is that the Government often do not seem have a strategy and they need to go back to that original to remember that they have a plan and do not always strategy to look at the areas that are not being executed follow through on some of the things in it, for example, as well as they could be. I said in my intervention that the risks of a vaccine, which my hon. Friend the Member I give credit to the Test and Trace team for massively for Wycombe (Mr Baker) reminded us about. The Prime expanding testing, but the testing is not an end; it is a Minister said in the foreword to the plan: means to an end: to identify the virus, isolate areas “It is clear that the only feasible long-term solution lies with a where we need to put in further measures and encourage vaccine or drug-based treatment.” people to isolate. If we do that, we will be successful and But he was frank enough to say that the country will thank us for it. “while we hope for a breakthrough, hope is not a plan. A mass vaccine or treatment may be more than a year away.” 3.49 pm The best evidence, even now, is that that year, which Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): If we are to have any would take us to next May or so, is about the best-case hope of getting a grip on this virus, reopening our scenario for being able to vaccinate older members of economy and restoring our freedoms, it all depends on the community if all goes well, so it is clear that we have fixing test, trace and isolate, and on giving control of to do other things. that system to directors of public health. As I understand The first phase of the Government’s plan was the it, local directors of public health can make proposals lockdown, to drive down the virus to a very low level. on how to tackle the virus in their area only under tier 3. The second phase was to introduce smarter controls, for Can the Government confirm today that, if local example, covid-safe workplaces in hospitality venues, authorities make proposals on how to use extra delegated combined with an effective testing and tracing system. I powers and their local knowledge to keep the virus said in my intervention on the Secretary of State, looking under control in their areas, they will work with them to at the evidence at the moment, that the second most enable this to happen, even when those areas are just in important piece of that, according to the Government’s tiers 1 and 2? plan, was the following: We also need to see proper financial support for those “local authority public health services to bring a valuable local businesses that are being asked to close, so that they can dimension to testing, contact tracing and support to people who both survive and recover. This is no small threat. Almost need to self-isolate”. 25% of hospitality businesses think they will fail in the I welcome the extra support given to the local public next three months. We understand the need for public health teams in the high-risk areas that the Government health measures, but they must come with a proper have set out, but I would argue that it should go further package of support. Many in hospitality are worried and extend across the country. The importance of that that the restrictions on households mixing in tiers 2 and is seen if we look at the data, which shows we are reaching 3, and on alcohol to be served only with a meal, might only about 74% of those who test positive to get their make businesses commercially unviable, and they will 219 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 220 Regulations Regulations [Daisy Cooper] Back in August, when the whole of Calderdale was put under local restrictions, we got additional support need to close even if they have not explicitly been told to from the Government in several forms. One form of do so. In those circumstances, will the Government support was an additional tier on the national track and make the extended job support scheme available to trace system. That has been a valuable tool to give the those companies? If local authorities decide to close all local authority real evidence of where the spikes are pubs in addition to tier 3 measures, do those who are coming from. As a result of that, we traced around forced to close have access to the Government’s central 90% of contacts. extended support scheme, and do suppliers to those As I said, I have a problem with state control over businesses that have had to close, but are not technically people’s lives, but—and there is a “but”—what we have forced to close themselves, have recourse to the extended seen locally during local restrictions is that, although job support scheme as well? the majority of people adhere to the law and guidance, Then there is the curfew. We have seen crowds of which is worth repeating, sadly, a significant number do people in close contact turfed out onto streets, onto not. Unfortunately, the actions of a significant few are public transport, into off-licences and into homes where putting everybody else at risk, and the current spike is they cannot be policed. The facts are well rehearsed. staggering. It is the result of a significant minority who SAGE members were not consulted. The Government are taking the liberty of living their daily lives as they did no assessment of the cost to business. The Campaign choose, and they are putting everybody else at risk. These for Real Ale and UKHospitality asked for the evidence, are some of the things that are happening locally, some but got nothing. The curfew is now subject to a judicial of which are evident from our track and trace system: review, because the Government have failed to provide people not self-isolating when they are unwell; people any evidence. Yesterday evening, at a briefing for MPs, not self-isolating when they return from holiday; and the Government’s medical advisers admitted that the people not self-isolating when they have been in contact curfew was a policy decision, not a scientific one.Overnight, with someone else who has tested positive. It is not SAGE’s minutes observed that the curfew would have a advised to mix households in pubs and restaurants; marginal impact. however, because that has been guidance only, our local pubs and restaurants have been full of mixed households Craig Whittaker: On that point, I used to be a landlord seated together. That is not evidence from track and many years ago, in the days when we kicked people out trace, but from the local MP, in the pub for most of the at 10 o’clock on a Sunday and 11 o’clock the rest of the weekend. Finally, households are still mixing, despite it week. Is the reality not that it is up to people to take being law that they cannot. responsibility for their own safety and that this is not There are many reasons why people have not adhered just about a policy? to the law or guidance, but the reality is that when a significant few ignore Government advice and take Daisy Cooper: The idea that a Government can change decisions about the pandemic into their own hands, a policy without having implications for public behaviour they put the majority at huge risk. This is by no means a is absurd. That is why the behavioural science group criticism of our local police and local authority, but exists to advise SAGE and has advised the Government they have taken the decision to have a light-touch on this point. What is worse is that we knew that the approach to enforcement of local restrictions. I have Government were advised to close everything down for supported that, but we are again at a cliff edge with the two weeks and they did not, suggesting that the curfew virus locally, and that light-touch approach, where people was just a feeble attempt to look as though they were are not penalised for taking their own decisions, is being trying to do something. The Government are so desperate abused by a significant number of people. not to accept that they got it wrong, or to suffer a I have lots of stats about what is happening locally, defeat, that even if the House votes down the curfew in but basically we have had 800 positive cases in the the seventh vote tonight, it has already been incorporated last two weeks. We now have 43 people in hospital and into the package of measures in the first three votes, six people in ICUs, and we have had 12 deaths since which will introduce the three tiers from tomorrow. The 1 October. It is for that reason—that is, the evidence—that Government have provided no opportunity for Opposition I support the Government 100% on implementing the MPs to amend them so that we can improve public health tiered system, because we really need to get the virus back and outcomes for businesses. The Government had the under control. opportunity to persuade the public and Opposition MPs with clear evidence, but they have squandered 3.56 pm that, choosing instead coercion and control. It is outrageous Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): A week that local government leaders, business leaders and ago, Nottingham showed for the first time a dramatic Members of this House have had to fight tooth and nail increase in our covid-19 infection rate.Weneeded immediate for weeks to see the evidence behind Government measures action from the Government, but instead all we got was that are threatening lives and livelihoods in our communities. confusion and delay. We were left in the dark for a week, It is an outrageous abuse of power and it must stop. There with no action and no communication from the is a sickness of secrecy at the heart of this Government, Government, and during that time the infection rate and it can be cured only by some radical transparency. doubled to be the highest in the country. The saddest thing about that is that it was avoidable. 3.53 pm The Government have failed us time and again during Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I will say at this crisis. They failed to protect elderly people and the start that, as a Conservative, imposing state control vulnerable people, who died at an alarming rate in care over people’s lives makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable homes and nursing homes. They failed to implement a and puts me well outside my personal comfort zone. test and trace system and they failed to listen to the 221 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 222 Regulations Regulations OECD’s advice that the best way to protect the economy London MP,I am particularly concerned about a London- was to prevent a second wave, instead telling people one wide lockdown, which would impact 9 million people. minute to go out to pubs, to eat out to help out, and All restrictions must be applied proportionately.Merton, then blaming them for doing so the next. The Government which includes Wimbledon, has one of the lowest infection prioritised the interests of the economy over saving rates in London, but many boroughs in different parts lives, yet failed to do both, and we are now faced with of London are affected. At what level would a London the worst recession in the developed world. restriction be applied, and will it be agreed by borough Last week, MPs, councillors and members of the leaders and not just the Mayor? Will the Minister public were left to find out in the press that we were due confirm that for London, like the rest of the country, to go under a local lockdown, without any details of restrictions will be on a borough-by-borough, ward-by-ward what that would look like for residents and for businesses. basis? It is difficult to see the rationale for a London-wide People in Nottingham have made enormous sacrifices imposition of new restrictions. during this pandemic, but frankly people are fed up. People want the Government to do their part. That means 4.2 pm a serious economic package to protect jobs and businesses, Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I believe that the and fixing the privatised Serco test and trace system. Government should have brought all these measures to Are the Government so wedded to privatisation that Parliament from the beginning, and it should not have even when it is utterly failing and public health is at risk taken a revolt on the Tory Back Benches for us to debate they just plough on? We also need to extend the eviction these statutory instruments.Why? Because through debates ban so that no one loses their home during this time. in Parliament we can persuade the public that the We know that lockdowns work only if people can Government are making the right decisions, and we can afford to self-isolate, so why is it that, eight months into challenge the Government and make them explain why this virus, statutory sick pay is still £95 a week? The they are making certain decisions. Secretary of State said that he could not live on that, so From the beginning of the pandemic there was why are my constituents expected to? My final question widespread support for what the Government were to the Minister, in the last few seconds, is why have the doing, but since Dominic Cummings’ trip to Durham, Government not even followed their own scientific advice, where his rule breaking was met with impunity by the which was to ban households mixing, close pubs and Prime Minister, we have seen an increase in confusion bring all university teaching online? How many people and the rules get more complex. We have also seen have to die before the Government get a grip of this virus? people’s good will turn into cynicism. The advice over the summer about eating out to help out, or people Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): If hon. Members being told to go back to work, then to work from home are on the call list between number 25 and 35, they and not go out or even go to the pub, caused confusion really should be in the Chamber now, please. and ill will. That is making it much harder to persuade our constituents that this is what they should be doing, 3.59 pm and that the Government have a plan. Weneed transparency Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I welcome and honesty, and to be able to trust what the Government the opportunity to make a short number of points to are doing. the Government about these statutory instruments. First, Yesterday, my local authority was put into tier 3. We I welcome the fact that they have set out with clarity know that the Government have decided to keep universities and granularity how the system will work, and that we and workplaces open, against the advice of SAGE. have the chance to debate these measures today. As the That leaves them with only socialising to try to press Prime Minister said last night, the evidence behind down on the virus. All they can do is restrict socialising some of the statutory instruments is, at best, imperfect, in private or public. Given that there were 41 deaths in and I am particularly concerned about the evidence for the past week in the north-west, I understand the need the 10 o’clock curfew. That curfew may or may not be to do it, but we cannot just have local lockdowns on the necessary, but in my constituency, many people are cheap. The current furlough-lite is just not a good leaving the hospitality sector at 10 o’clock and going to enough system to ensure that hospitality and jobs are local shops to buy alcohol. They are moving from a properly protected, and 67% of wages is just not enough. covid-secure environment, usually to a less covid-secure We are abandoning many hundreds of thousands of environment. If the Minister wants to make the case jobs and many fantastic businesses in hospitality and that SI 2020 No. 1029 is necessary, I suggest that he entertainment to go to the wall without support. introduces a statutory instrument that allows for local I want to support the Government, but the Government restrictions on the purchase time for alcohol. also need to share their thinking and be much more I welcome the fact that the restrictions are time transparent and open about the scientific advice and limited in a number of cases, and I accept that the Joint what works. They also need to be far more generous, Committee on Statutory Instruments will need to make especially in tier 3 areas, with the support they are quick decisions. Why is the proposed expiry date for a willing to put in to keep local economies, local jobs and number of these statutory instruments not three months local businesses alive, so that we can all fight to get this but six months? If there is any indication that we need virus down. to increase that period, will the House get to debate that? Will there be a 28-day review in the House of all 4.5 pm the statutory instruments? Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am very happy to The Prime Minister was absolutely right last night speak in this debate. This pandemic is devastating to so when he said that we need to build consensus, and the many: those who have lost loved ones, those who live in Minister will not be surprised to hear that, as a south fear of leaving the house, those serving in the NHS, 223 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 224 Regulations Regulations [Jim Shannon] Prime Minister too was in hospital, while his partner was pregnant, and suffered a great deal because of the frontline workers, those worried that their jobs are to be virus. Thankfully he pulled through and is fighting fit lost, those worried that they will not get medical treatment and doing his utmost to protect our people, but no one quickly enough or those who do not seek it for fear they is immune to this virus. may have to go to the hospital, parents of children who The Government have the incredibly complex task of should be doing exams this year and are beyond stressed, saving lives without compromising livelihoods. The teachers who know the need to educate children but are economic measures put in place by the Chancellor to concerned for safety—I cannot think of any group of that extent have been among the most generous in Europe. people in the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain These regulations are consistent with the Government’s and Northern Ireland who are not affected by this in strategy to defeat covid-19 and manage the demands on some way. the NHS. I believe the Government are working hard to I think of a lady I know, who attends and looks after take that balanced approach, taking into account public children and babies at the Ards Elim Church, and who health issues, broader health and wellbeing, and the has had devastating news. As we know, the hospitals economic and social considerations. Unfortunately, we and so on closed down to testing in Ards, particularly have seen infection cases rising rapidly across the country, for those with cancer; the papers today referred to and the number of patients admitted into intensive care 3 million people waiting for appointments and assessments. units in hospitals has increased. This is exactly the This lady, unfortunately, has had devastating news of situation we must avoid. The Government’s job is to do advanced cancer, so I am conscious that it is for that what is best for the people, and to save lives while generation of hard-working, straight-talking, Queen- protecting the economy. One thing is for sure, however: and-country-loving, God-honouring prayer women that noonewantstoseethenumberof deathsandhospitalisations I support the Prime Minister, the Minister and the that we saw earlier this year. Government in what they are trying to do and in their My own area of Morley and Outwood, along with attempts to keep as many things running as possible. the rest of West Yorkshire, has been placed on high alert I am conscious of those waiting for a CAT scan or level at this stage. Such is the great variation of infections MRI scan and of those with normal—if normal is the between the regions, there have been different rules in right word—health issues who are waiting for treatment. different parts of the country. This is the best way to I also think of those with Alzheimer’s; the Alzheimer’s keep our economy going without shutting down our Society has sent me some figures showing that one in entire nation. Today’s three-tier system ensures a four of all coronavirus deaths between March and June collaborative approach between central Government were people with dementia. It also referred to the 92 million and local communities. The Government are not simply extra hours spent by family and friends, and the diagnosis introducing restrictions without the necessary support. rates in August 2020 that fell below the 66.7% target—it I welcome the Chancellor’s further actions to protect was nowhere near reached. jobs and to support businesses whose premises have been Perhaps when the Minister sums up the debate he can legally required to shut. The Government are taking the give me some succour in relation to cancer rates and necessary responsibility to support the economy through Alzheimer’s. The Alzheimer’s Society has also said it this public health crisis. would like to see nominated visitors to care homes As Conservatives, we suffer by instinct from the classified as key workers, so that they can get help with imposition of restrictions—I personally do—but we PPE and infection control. Those may seem like difficult would not do it unless it was extremely necessary to tasks, but the fact is that it is not enough just to keep safeguard lives.During lockdown, I had manyconversations people alive. The quality of that life must also be essential. with care homes, businesses and constituents in Morley Turning very quickly to Northern Ireland, we have and Outwood. They all agreed that it was possible to one of the highest rates in Europe in Strabane, but we keep the virus under control while keeping the economy also have some incredibly low rates of community transition going. I believe there is broad consensus in this House in my own area of Strangford. That shows the difference and in my constituency that the health of our fellow there can be in a small region such as Northern Ireland, citizens is paramount. It is time for us, across the and it shows how we must be localised in how we House, to pull together, across the country with local respond to these things. I conclude by saying this: we leaders, to put the health crisis first and avoid all party must press on in education, press on with hospital politics. appointments and press on with business. We must press on in a new way—the safest way possible for 4.11 pm everyone in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, with space and respect for all—but Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to we must still press on. follow the hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Andrea Jenkyns). She makes a valid point that this is a 4.8 pm public health crisis. Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con): Almost Over a week ago, my constituency of Hartlepool was 43,000 people have died through covid in the UK since placed under lockdown. It is currently in tier 2 of the the start of the pandemic. Those are not just numbers new measures. Yes, it was requested by the local authority not grounded in reality; each number, each curve and that such action be taken, but not in the guise in which each graph represents real people. Many have fallen ill it formed itself in the current measures. Lockdown was and many have died due to the virus. They are our imposed on Hartlepool via a Government press release. neighbours, our friends, our colleagues and our families. Yesterday morning at 9 am, there was a hastily arranged They died, in many cases, without seeing their children, conference call, hosted by a Minister, with all north-east saying goodbye for the last time in an ambulance. Our leaders, yet Hartlepool, together with other authorities 225 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 226 Regulations Regulations in the Tees valley, was left off the phone call. On behalf I fully support the Government’s measures before the of my council, I would like the Minister to answer why House today, which are proportionate, balanced and they were not included in a phone call on the new represent a collective approach to ensuring that we do our measures in the north-east of England. If that was a very best to protect others in the fight against coronavirus. mistake, has it been rectified or when will it be rectified? Consultation with my local authority has so far been 4.17 pm woeful. Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): My constituency Turning to the public health issues, now that the has been under what are now known as tier 2 restrictions whole of the Tees valley is under tier 2 we can hopefully for 75 days. Yesterday evening, public health authorities work together and set party politics aside for the public and the local authority were told that we should now good. Collectively, our local authorities face important enter into talks to consider going into the highest tier. challenges and they deserve to have appropriate resources That quite shocked me, because it was not what I was allocated to them. In my council, it is estimated that told in the calls with the Secretary of State yesterday or £4.5 million is needed to provide extra support during in any other calls. It has also come as a surprise to lockdown. Wedesperately need to see a strategy developed people in Bradford. by the Government for ending lockdown. Test and trace Just as other Members have made cases for their needs to be devolved, so that local environmental health constituencies, I will be no different in making the case teams, who know the patch and have the knowledge, for mine. Bradford West is a special case in that in can provide a more effective service. We need much 2017-18 child poverty was at 50.9% when we take into more to assist us to get through tier 2. It is a public account children’s deprivation and housing costs. We health crisis. I urge the Government to improve their have the seventh highest rates of unemployment in the communications and to answer the question I put earlier. country. Under the current support package, minimum Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): If you are on wage workers on £8.72 will have to pay rent and live off the call list between No. 40 and No. 70 and you no longer £5.84 if the businesses they work for are forced to close. want to participate in the debate, please make sure that Those excluded from any financial support from the the message comes through to the Chair. Government during the pandemic face another £20 cut in their universal credit claims as the Government drive 4.14 pm on with their roll-back of vital support. I ask the Minister directly: how does he expect people Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con): I believe that the to survive in a constituency such as Bradford West, measures proposed by the Government are reasonable which has rising rates of child deprivation and is currently and proportionate to slow the spread of the virus while under additional restrictions, if their places of work balancing this against civil liberties. In particular, I were to close? Do not he and the Government see how believe that the 10 pm closing time is appropriate as the lack of adequate support alongside these restrictions part of the package of measures designed to strike that will, rather than preventing a rise in child poverty, lead balance, and that the data and evidence, as outlined by to an increase in child poverty in constituencies such as the Secretary of State, show that it is actually proving mine? If these measures are to be effective, the support effective in curbing the spread of the virus. It is of needs to be adequate. I therefore ask him to speak to the course a compromise, but one that allows the hospitality Chancellor and consider additional funding support for industry to remain open for business while including constituencies such as mine. I know this Government restrictions to curb the virus in the areas of greatest may not have the political will to try to reduce child risk. It is also important to remember that all these deprivation in constituencies such as mine, but I sincerely measures are kept under constant review and seek to hope that they have the moral will to do so. respond to the latest data about which steps are most effective in curbing the spread of the virus. I am much When history judges how we responded to this pandemic, encouraged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s recent social media has plenty of memes that give really good announcements of increased financial support for sectors outlines of what the Government’s U-turns have been— such as the hospitality industry that are most affected from “whack-a-mole” to “world-beating” and all these by the restrictions. “moonshot” theories. But actually the real test will be: how will our next generation make their way? Will their I speak in this debate as the MP for a Welsh constituency, education be right? Will they be the next generation of Clwyd South, which borders England, and therefore the poverty, even after 10 years of austerity and 10 years of decisions taken in Wales are the responsibility of the this Government? What will life look like for my children Welsh Government. I strongly support the Westminster and the children beyond? That will be the real test, so Government’s introduction of a new three-tier system that is the responsibility the Government need to step that is much more targeted than the Welsh Government’s up to today. current local lockdown by county. Currently, 80% of Wales is under local lockdown. I very much hope that 4.20 pm the Welsh Government will follow the Secretary of State’s more targeted approach, as outlined in this Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con): Lockdowns debate, particularly with regard to the district-by-district do work if the desire is merely to flatten the curve, approach in areas such as High Peak. That is what we flatten the sombrero, reduce the R number, and covid is need in Wales. Having witnessed the blanket approach the only thing in town. But of course it is not the only in Wales, which in my constituency does not distinguish thing in town. That ignores the corollary effects on other between different areas of infection within counties, nor health issues, wellbeing and, of course, the economy. between different levels of infection, I strongly support The benefit of what the Government are proposing the Secretary of State’sgraduated and sustainable three-tier today, with tiers 1, 2 and 3—medium, high and very approach. high—has the benefit of clarity, which I think has been 227 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 228 Regulations Regulations [Craig Mackinlay] single week. No business could be expected to survive that indefinitely and the job support scheme does little lacking thus far. But I do have concerns and I would to help, pushing families into poverty. Far from the like clarity from the Minister before the end of today’s Government’s stated aspiration of levelling up, we are debate as to how he proposes to move areas in the being levelled down in the north-west by coronavirus future, as necessary, between the different tiers. My and a Government who seem to think we should be reading of the SIs is that that can be done without grateful for the limited support we have had. recourse back to Parliament. Areas can be moved between The worst part is hearing from constituents who have 2 and 3 or vice versa with no negative or affirmative lost hope. The mental health impacts of all they have procedure in this House. The worry has to be that there had to endure will be lasting and significant. As well as is an ability to recreate a national lockdown in piecemeal getting serious about financial support for our region to fashion, so I certainly hope the Minister will be able to deal with the virus, we urgently need to see increased answer that. support to deal with the mental health crisis that we I have the same concerns this week as I did last face. To give people hope, we need to have it explained week—raised by many hon. and right hon. Members— what thresholds Warrington needs to meet to be moved about the rule of six, and I was a Teller last week out of tier 2 and into tier 1, with the rest of the country. against that SI. There seems to be very little rationale With something to work towards, compliance will naturally today and there was none last week. If six is the magic increase, and it will give us back some of the control golden number, surely four has got to be better and, if that we feel we have lost. We all want to do our bit, but not, why not 10? Let us discuss that. I was particularly the Government must do theirs. That means greater taken by the speech—he is not in his place—of my right engagement, transparency and accountability and not a hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), lockdown for the north on the cheap. who made the very reasonable point that a mother and a newborn, never detached from each other, under these 4.25 pm counting units count as a two. That has to be patently Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): I am pleased to absurd when, under any reasonable measure, they have contribute to the debate. Many of us on the Back Benches to be counted as a one, and that absurdity would fought for this opportunity to contribute, although I continue into any close living family unit. was hoping that we would have longer than three minutes. My real concern is, of course, about the 10 pm I do not doubt that Ministers are grappling with the curfew. Just considering this great city of London, the most difficult trade-offs in managing the spread of the restaurants close, the pubs close, there is no takeaway virus. In particular, I know that the Minister for Health available at 10 o’clock, and guess what? The first train bears a huge responsibility in trying to ensure the lowest out of London or the next tube at 10.10 is going to be possible number of covid fatalities. rocker-chocker solid—mixing and mingling with people I support the Government in their efforts to manage at close proximity.For great clarity of any Whips listening the virus and their three-tier system, but I have concerns to this debate, I will be voting against the, albeit superseded, similar to those of my hon. Friend the Member for negative procedure SI on the 10 pm curfew, which is South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay), and I want to raise in motion 9. I remain very concerned about the SI in three of them. First, the Prime Minister was brutally motion 3 on the Order Paper about the lower level tier 1 honest yesterday in telling my hon. Friend the Member —medium. Again, the 10 pm curfew has crept into all for Wycombe (Mr Baker) that a vaccine may or may not of these SIs and I see no rationale for it to be relevant be available, depending on what science delivers. If that for the lower level—the safer level. So I remain to be is the case, we need a long-term covid strategy that does convinced, but I am currently concerned and may vote not involve areas being put in and out of restrictive against. measure for many years to come, which will not only damage local economies but have a tragic impact on the 4.23 pm diagnosis and treatment of other potentially fatal health CharlotteNichols(WarringtonNorth)(Lab):Increasingly, conditions among my constituents in Wealden. it feels like the north is being treated as an afterthought, In particular, cancer comes to mind. The national with decisions taken by people in Whitehall who could health service has been called the national covid service not even point to Warrington on a map. Wehad absolutely by many of my constituents. I received an email from a none of the promised engagement over the weekend local resident, Mike, who is trying to get a neurosurgery with our local authority and there was a concerted push consultation appointment. He has been told that, for to make us subject to the tier 3 restrictions of the his condition, he has to wait 48 weeks, not the 26 weeks Liverpool city region, despite not being a part of those that it would have been in February. Amusingly—even conversations or, indeed, of the Liverpool city region. It though my residents in Wealden are struggling, they has been insulting to be invited to a meeting for a totally still have a sense of humour—he says that patients are different county by the Department for Health, and to asked to use their “fastest finger first” when ringing to be told what restrictions we would be subject to only try to get a same-day hospital appointment: minutes before the Prime Minister made his announcement, “Anyone without a swish redialling telephone and the persistence when the details had all been leaked to The Times days of Miss Marple has little chance of getting an appointment.” earlier, causing huge anxiety locally. That is the problem we face. Our efforts to protect the The real irony, however, is that many of our local NHS and protect our constituents from getting covid businesses would be better off if we had gone into tier 3, are unfortunately leading to people being unable to as the financial support for tier 2 is totally inadequate. manage their other health conditions. Between the 10 pm curfew and the introduction of the Secondly, testing and tracing continues to be an issue ban on households mixing indoors, hospitality venues in my care homes and schools, and I urge the Minister in Warrington lost up to 90% of their business in a to do what he can to ensure that the turnaround time 229 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 230 Regulations Regulations for tests is much swifter than it is at the moment. The is far more centralised, so I do not think there is a fair final point I wish to raise is about hospitality. It is clear comparison. It would be best if all our citizens co-operated that there is no scientific basis for the 10 pm curfew. The entirely with test, track and trace, downloaded the app SAGE scientists say: and used it, and behaved responsibly. In the end, with “Curfews likely to have a marginal impact. Low confidence.” the covid virus, the human variable is key to limiting We are repeatedly told that this virus spreads indoors. A and controlling the disease. We have to get individuals story in today’s Telegraph says that spending on alcohol to understand their responsibility and their key use in is £261 million more than it was in September. That is sorting this problem out themselves. no doubt because people are spending money on booze As I was saying, under this new tier system, Wakefield to drink at home, where the virus spreads much more. will be placed under stricter measures while other areas We need to be clear about the unintended consequences in West Yorkshire with a far higher incidence, such as of the decisions we take. the hon. Lady’s, will enjoy eased measures. Wakefield’s infection rate merits the disaggregation of the Wakefield 4.28 pm Metropolitan District Council area from West Yorkshire and its placement in tier 1. The Secretary of State has Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): In March, we already said that this is possible in High Peak and parts adhered to lockdown measures to protect one another’s of North Yorkshire, so, if he would commit to so doing lives and prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed. for Wakefield, I would reconsider and vote with the Evidence indicates that the virus is on the increase across Government. Without such assurances, I fear these the nation. The analysis of what that means, however, is measures would, for Wakefield, be death by a thousand contested, and I remain to be convinced that the imposition cuts. I could not look my constituents in the eye if I had of further measures in Wakefield at this time is the right voted for measures that broke them. thing to do. The measures before the House, which seek to arrest the spread of covid-19, will cripple Wakefield’s economic recovery and sound the death knell for many 4.32 pm businesses. There is no silver bullet, and without one, Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): Bristol, in tier 1, although it is difficult, we must learn to live with the has fortunately been able to maintain low transmissions, virus. The continued peaks and troughs are unsustainable and hence admissions to hospital and, so far, deaths. We and offer false hope. want it to stay that way. My experience of working in Last week I visited Ossett brewery, which employs close the local health system is that this is in large part due to to 400 people in my constituency. Having spent tens of good relationships that have been hard developed over thousands of pounds on becoming a covid-secure business, many years, particularly through local resilience forums. the incomprehensible 10 pm curfew—at best grounded There are good relationships with Public Health England in questionable science—has left the business in jeopardy. and directors of public health. Working together is This afternoon I received an email from the managing sustaining some very good work locally, but there is no director, who said that the imposition of tier 2 measures room for complacency.We recognise that the economy— would merit the brewery’s closure. wealth creation—is crucial to good local health, and I have similar stories to tell from restaurateurs and we need support from the Government for both those businesses from across my constituency. My inbox is things. swamped with people asking me—imploring me—to In the short time available, I want to highlight issues help the Government to realise that their businesses will around isolating, shielding, and test and trace. As well be damned. I have not received one letter or email asking as reducing social contact, which the Secretary of State me to commend the Government on their proposals. talked a lot about, the key to transmission reduction Throughout the pandemic, the people of Wakefield is isolating, but isolation support is woeful and for behaved responsibly, adhering to the Government’s communities with little money, which face higher guidelines. When my constituency was marked as an unemployment, the situation is worsened. We have to be area of concern, my constituents diligently followed much more honest about the incentives and the way social distancing advice and were rewarded. Wakefield they work to support people who are isolating. It is now has a lower number of covid cases than neighbouring hard and the knock-on effects on families are substantial Kirklees and Calderdale—indeed, lower than the and disruptive. Again, we need local public health people Chancellor’s constituency of Richmond, which has been who know their communities to help support those who categorised as tier 1. As a consequence of this new tier are isolating. We need much more support for people system, Wakefield will be unfairly characterised as tier 2, who are shielding. People do not understand why it is along with the rest of West Yorkshire. As Wakefield is now different from how it was back in March. placed in stricter measures— Across the House, we all know that the test and trace system is not working. It is causing chaos for the Naz Shah: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we frontline, particularly care home managers and school should thank local health officials, particularly the directors leaders. There is a balancing act to be done here. Again, of public health such as in Bradford West, and that they we need local support to inform those school leaders have the real answers? That expertise is very local and and care home managers about how to interpret the this needs to be led locally, as opposed to nationally guidance. That cannot just be done through the algorithm. with “one size fits all” in cases such as his? It is a disgrace that the test and trace system is not led by a civil servant whom we can hold to account. I do Imran Ahmad Khan: The hon. Lady raises an interesting not know how we can hold the Baroness—I do not point. Certainly, if we used a model such as Germany, know whether the courtesies of the House allow me to that would be the case, but Germany has a strong name her—to account for the system. That must be federal system with the Länder while the United Kingdom changed. It is crucial that we can hold people to account. 231 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 232 Regulations Regulations [Karin Smyth] Hull West and Hessle was already suffering because of a decade of austerity and of cuts—a decade of cuts that I accept that the legislation was rushed through in the Prime Minister seems to forget he voted for. March, and perhaps there was a reason for not using Our hospitality trade brings colour to our lives—those the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 or the public health social moments that we enjoy; the times we are with legislation we are debating today.The Public Administration friends and family and celebrate weddings, anniversaries and Constitutional Affairs Committee has scrutinised and birthdays. Pubs help to bring the community together. this, produced our report and we now need to move to This Government’s incompetence is killing them off, a better way forward. We cannot keep dragging the and they will not be forgiven. Government here week after week to do our job, which is to agree to disagree, to scrutinise and to hold to 4.38 pm account, based on our experience, the work we do in Committees and our work locally. It would improve the Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): I speak amid concerning legislation. It would improve local trust, and ultimately news for our constituency: our borough, Redbridge, has that supports the front line and saves lives. the highest infection rate in London alongside Richmond upon Thames. Infection rates in the London borough 4.35 pm of Redbridge have risen to more than 100 per 100,000, and in some of my Ilford South wards it is significantly Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) higher. (Lab): The Government must be under no illusion: I welcome the Government’s latest three-tier guidelines, the country’s patience and goodwill are wearing thin. but I feel that they need to go significantly further. People were promised that the lockdown pain would be Hundreds of my constituents have written over the past worth it as they experienced friends, colleagues and few days expressing concern that we have such a high family members lose businesses and be made redundant, rate. I have visited shops and businesses, speaking to separation from loved ones, the cancellation of hospital people face to face in the appropriate socially distanced appointments, and children missing out on education. way. They are extremely concerned about the direction They were promised a world-beating track and trace of travel. system. They were promised that the Prime Minister had taken personal control. They were told that it The London director of Public Health England, would be all over by Christmas. After 204 days, we are Professor Fenton, has warned that coronavirus cases in back to square one: the fourth worst in the world for London continue to rise, and we are seeing undeniable Covid cases. evidence of that trend. In fact, infection rates are rising across the country despite the partial and tight lockdown I spoke last week to a pub landlord, who did not measures in many parts of the country. It is clear that mince his words and had reached the end of his tether. the Government must now act more decisively than He had three pubs: now he has only two. He has seen his they have so far to stop any further escalation of infection costs increase and income fall. He says he did everything rates in London. We must learn the lessons of other the Government asked of him: he shut for 13 weeks; he regions across the country that have had partial lockdowns moved tables; he turned off music; he turned off sports and are still seeing rising infection rates. I am speaking commentaries; he moved drinks outside; he opened to councillors in Oldham, which has witnessed soaring doors and windows; he asked people to sit down; he infection rates—above 205 to 327 per 100,000 in the stopped more than six being in a group; he split up space of just a week—despite being under tight lockdown families and support bubbles; he told people not to measures since the end of August. The partial lockdown shout; he banned singing; he banned dancing; he banned measures in regions such as Greater Manchester have live music; he started wearing masks; he completed clearly failed to curb infection rates, with Manchester’s track and trace; he got sanitary stations; he had additional infection rate rising by more than 100 to 543 per 100,000 cleaning; he had table service; and now he has been told just last week. he must shut at 10 pm, which means last orders at The current overall London lockdown infection rate 9.15 pm, because having been a barmaid I know that remains at 100 per 100,000. That is why I believe it is people need drinking-up time before they can be cleared now time for the Government to act urgently across out. That therefore means that business is being lost London by implementing a circuit-breaker lockdown from 9.15 pm. for at least two weeks to prevent London from suffering He does not understand it. The science is telling him the fate of other major cities across the country and to that it does not have significant reasons for following it, halt the trend of rising infection rates across the city. and what we need from Government are evidence and I recognise that this needs to be hand in hand with clarity. He has been let down. He needs support for further economic measures, because it is a more radical businesses, and not just for those in tier 3 but those right measure, but it must be done. I will not be able to look across the country. We need a commitment that there my constituents in Ilford South in the eye when their will be adequate notice for any of these changes. friends and family are dying because of the utter chaos It is ludicrous that people in tier 3 can order alcohol and ineptitude of this Government. only if they have a “substantial meal”. What is a substantial That initial financial support must urgently be provided meal? If they order a salad they cannot have a glass of to the workers and businesses in Ilford South and across wine, but anything with a pastry lid means they can London. The cost would be far smaller than that which have a pint. This is nonsense. We are treating the public would be required if the infection and death rates like fools. soared, and London was forced into a far longer and We need to improve communication. The Government more serious lockdown over a protracted period of must not underestimate how angry people are. People many months. Similar calls have been echoed by the are losing faith in the Government, and that is dangerous. Mayor of London, who just today stated the need for 233 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 234 Regulations Regulations tighter restrictions across the city. In my constituency, 4.44 pm all the data shows that it is our black and majority Asian communities that are suffering so badly as a result of Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a the virus. We cannot afford for them to continue to be pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Coventry North on the frontline. West (Taiwo Owatemi), and I share very much her frustration at the impossibility of getting clear answers I implore the Government, who have the lives of my from the Government on so many of these important constituents in their hands, to act now and bring in a questions. circuit-breaker lockdown across London immediately. “Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. 4.42 pm It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves”— Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): Just those words from William Pitt were included in an email yesterday the Prime Minister and the Government from one of my constituents complaining about the unleashed a new package of restrictions and tiers in way in which this Government are treating the constituents order to tackle the transmission of the coronavirus. in Christchurch and so many other people in this country. Yesterday afternoon, in a meeting with west midlands What is the necessity for what the Government are MPs, the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care bringing forward today? I asked on 8 October whether told the MPs present that all bar two areas—Dudley the Government would publish the evidence in support and Coventry—will be placed on tier 2 restrictions. of the Secretary of State’s statement on 1 October that When I asked him whether he could let me know the “hundreds of thousands of deaths…would follow”—[Official scientific basis for Coventry and Dudley being on tier 1 Report, 1 October 2020; Vol. 681, c. 503.]— restrictions, and what could trigger a move to tier 2, my if the Government just let the virus rip. There has been question was ignored and unanswered. When I asked no answer to that question—no attempt to answer how soon after a governmental decision has been made it—nor has there been any justification for the arbitrary to move a constituency from one tier to another Members introduction of a 10 o’clock curfew. and community leaders would be alerted, I received no answer. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Does my This is utterly unacceptable.My constituents in Coventry hon. Friend trust the prognosis of Professor Ferguson, North West deserve better. They are doing everything whose estimates have been proved wrong again and they can to hold up their end of the bargain to ensure again and are wildly exaggerated? that transmission is low and stays that way. They deserve more clarity on the evidence behind the Government’s decisions. Clarity ensures adherence. Without it we are Sir Christopher Chope: I do not trust them at all. I flailing in the wind, and people are suffering. Right shall refer to the evidence from Sweden, because the now, the Government risk losing confidence in their Prime Minister’s challenge to his critics was to put ability to see us through this crisis. They have wasted forward an alternative. The Swedish approach is clear months of precious time and millions of pounds of and simple—it is to trust the people and make them taxpayers’ money, and are still not getting it right. Will responsible for their own health and welfare. I looked at the Minister let us know just how much notice each the figures for Sweden for the first week of October. local area will be given if a change in its restriction level Only seven deaths were recorded in Sweden in the whole occurs, and how local communities and local leaders of that period and today, not a single death was recorded will be told of these decisions? in Sweden. The Swedish Public Health Agency recommends that household isolation and quarantine should exclude To borrow a phrase that we are all too familiar with, those who have provisionally tested positive for covid-19 winter is coming. It is imperative for the Government to or have been confirmed to have antibodies in the last be better prepared to tackle the virus, and equip our six months. I tabled a question asking why that category hospitals and care sectors with the resources they need of people cannot be exempt from these regulations. to handle the second wave. I fear that the Government Again, I have not had an answer, although the time have not learnt lessons from spring, and that our care when it should have been answered has long passed. This sector will be under-protected. I fear that our hospitals is intolerable—the arrogance with which the Government will be ill prepared to cope, and that non-covid patients are treating us as elected Members of this place. will once again be relegated to the back burner, because the right precautions and planning are not in place to Swedish common sense is to the fore. They have deal with what may come. restricted gatherings not to six, but to 50. They allow Will the Minister let the House know what the nursing homes to decide their own visiting policies. Government are doing to prepare for the pressures on They regard the rules about face coverings as simplistic our NHS that winter will bring, in particular for cancer and irrelevant. Again, on face coverings, I tabled a patients? What plans will be in place clearly to address parliamentary question on 25 September asking the sprawling waiting lists for cancer services, and what Secretary of State additional support have the Government given to the “whether the introduction of regulations requiring the use of face many thousands of people who have had their cancer coverings was linked to an increase in infection rates of covid-19”. treatment disrupted over the course of the pandemic? It will not have escaped your notice, Mr Deputy Speaker, These are pertinent question that we have asked the that since those regulations were brought in, there has Government time and again, but yet again they are been an exponential increase in the infection rate in this providing us with little clarity and no answer—on the country. Have I had an answer to that question? Of back foot, as usual. course not, which suggests that the Government do not This is an opportunity for the Government to do even want to face up to the evidence that face coverings better, and, in the interests of the country, I really hope are counterproductive and are leading to a false sense of they do. security. 235 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 236 Regulations Regulations [Sir Christopher Chope] I have always said that I will support any measures required that will successfully contain and minimise In Sweden, two thirds of all deaths from covid-19 the devastating impact of this virus, but I hope it has have been in the over-80 age group. That is similar to the become clear to the Government, after a weekend of situation here, and all the United Kingdom restrictions discontent, that this country will not accept measures have so far given the average member of this country—the determined by stealth and communicated through press UK citizen—an extra half-day of life.These new restrictions leaks in the night. Those affected by these measures are that are coming in will not even give that, because the owed much greater respect than that. The leaks last collateral damage that is being caused will actually Thursday evening caused widespread anxiety across reduce life expectancy further. Newcastle. People are fearing for their jobs, businesses are cancelling orders and preparing to batten down, 4.48 pm suppliers are finding themselves left with goods that are Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): Clearly, if we no longer wanted and families are fearing that this are going to live with this virus, which we obviously will might be their last chance to meet. This is no way to at least until—if ever—a vaccine is found, we need to treat people who have already suffered so much as a influence individuals to behave in a way that not only result of the virus. keeps them safe, but makes them discharge their Everyone accepts that sacrifice is needed. The resolve responsibility to keep safe other people in society and in that people have needed to make those sacrifices to their families. There are many tools that Governments protect the most vulnerable and support the NHS has can use to do this. They include rules, regulations and been unwavering, but they must have confidence that restrictions on activity. They also include messaging. their sacrifices are worth the pain and will actually We must give positive incentives to do these things, as bring the right results. That is why the Government’s well as negative consequences if the rules are not followed. approach has been so damaging. We cannot afford to However, I have to say to the Government that more rules lose the confidence of those we rely on to make this work. will just mean that the compliant, who are not engaging The Government need to be open, honest and transparent, in risky behaviour, will continue to comply, but that and respectful to those who need to live with these those who are reckless will find ways round the rules. restrictions. We saw a much better approach yesterday, There is no better example of that than the curfew. and I hope the Government have learned and will not We know that there is no scientific basis for doing it to put people through that anxiety again. protect people’s wellbeing. We have penalised restaurants, I want to put on record my concern about whether which now have to close at 10 pm and cannot do two these restrictions are necessary at all. There is a sense of sittings in an evening, although they have made massive inevitability about this, but the fact is that the UK is far investments to make their premises covid-secure. We are from world-leading when it comes to handling this punishing the compliant. Meanwhile, publicans in the virus, despite its regular over-inflated claims. We need a high street can comply with the rules and close at 10, but functioning test, track and trace system, and we need they are offering take-outs at 9.45 to the massive crowds support for those who are isolating. Also, we are not on of people spilling out of the pubs. That is reckless top of asymptomatic transmission, and that is a major behaviour, and I really think the Government need to problem. It was needed last time and it is still needed now. take stock. It is clear that this is not a good measure to I have one more specific issue to raise. With no influence behaviour in any positive way. There are much financial support being provided to hospitality businesses better ways of doing it. Considering the powers that the in tier 2, we have to know that these measures will work. Government have already taken, I think we should look By allowing restaurants to remain open in the tier 3 at more enforcement of fewer rules and regulations, areas, despite closing the bars, the Government seem to rather than creating new ones when there are issues. have acknowledged that restaurants carry a lower level In the time I have left, I want to pay tribute to my of risk. The effects of alcohol consumption on social community and to the local authority officials and distancing are well documented, but the situation where health officials in Thurrock for the fantastic effort they alcohol is served alongside a meal is clearly different. have made in tackling this virus. Weare currently 134th out We are not talking nuts and crisps, but a meal, yet the of 149 local authorities in terms of cases. We have a blanket 10 pm curfew for all hospitality in tiers 1 and 2 local contact tracing capability that has kept rates down, does not account for the different transmission risk. It and we have had no deaths since July, so it has come as does not look after restaurants which, as the hon. some surprise that Public Health England has been Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) pointed out, lobbying my local authority to move from tier 1 to can offer two sittings. There is no time for dessert or tier 2. That makes an absolute nonsense of this tiering coffee. That sounds trivial, but it can be make or break policy, because we should be asking for additional for a restaurant business. The Government need to look restrictions only where there will be a material benefit again at lumping all hospitality businesses into the same to public health. My director of public health advises restrictions. It does not work. me that further restrictions will actually jeopardise public health, and that there will be no benefits from them. We 4.55 pm must not be complacent, given the current rise in cases, Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Mr Deputy but please will the Minister resist any attempt to put Speaker, you may well think that over 37 years, you have Thurrock into tier 2? heard enough from me, so let me read out a letter that happened to arrive this morning from a constituent. 4.52 pm It says: Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) “I am 67 years old and for the first time in a long time I am (Lab): With time short, I want to highlight just a few scared. Not of the virus, which, let’s be honest, is proving to be no issues relating to the measures being debated today. more deadly than the flu”— 237 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 238 Regulations Regulations that is his opinion; I do not necessarily share it. cancer operations and heart operations, if we drive people “I am scared of the damage being deliberately caused to the into mental health difficulties and if we close down economy and our freedoms by this Government in the name of businesses, we are paying a terrible price, and there has covid-19. It isn’t the virus closing businesses and causing job to be a balance. losses, it’s the actions of the Government. It isn’t the virus stopping people getting treatment and operations, it’s the actions 4.59 pm of the Government. It isn’t the virus preventing pupils and Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): It is a pleasure students getting the education they are entitled to, it’s the actions of the Government.” to follow the right hon. Gentleman. I do not always agree with him, but he does always make me think. I So speaks my constituent in a letter that arrived this hope to be able, on behalf of my constituents, to morning. articulate their anxiety,their confusion and their frustration Another letter arrived this morning from a constituent with today having been placed, along with the rest of telling me that they were having doorstep services very the Liverpool city region, under tier 3 restrictions. The successfully over recent months attended by six to 16 people imposition of such stringent measures has come as a in place of going to church if that was not possible. surprise to us. I want to make it clear that this decision, That, of course, now breaks the rule of six, so they have including the specificity on the businesses that are closing had to stop. and the restrictions on movement and on people, has I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch been made by the Government. There was an ad hoc (Sir Christopher Chope) in posing some serious questions process of discussion with local leaders, but there was to Government that have to be answered. On positive no proper mechanism for consulting them about these test results—I ask the Government to write back to me measures which will have such a huge impact on the if they cannot answer in the winding-up speech—what 1.6 million people across our city region. So for the percentage do they estimate are false positives? Of covid Government to say that this was agreed is like me saying hospitalisations, what is the breakdown between those to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that we have agreed that I in hospital who happen to have tested positive and will have only three minutes to speak in this debate. those who are in hospital because of their covid symptoms? That is important because it speaks to the heart of Given the disparity between the number of cases and the lack of trust and public confidence in the Government, the number of deaths, are we not wrong to react to the and I say that with a heavy heart. Businesses have rate of infection, rather than hospitalisations and deaths? played their part in my community: pubs, gyms, leisure There are many,many other questions that need answering. centres, betting shops and casinos have all expended Following my hon. Friend, what is the evidence that huge amounts of money and resources in getting themselves we are saving lives by throwing people out of pubs at ready to reopen, only to have been let down by systemic 10 o’clock into the street? They can go and buy lager in failures on the part of the Government on test, trace the shops. They can go back to their student digs. and isolate. I am not opposed to restrictions where they are required and necessary, and let me say clearly that I Sir Christopher Chope: Does my right hon. Friend agree am worried about the rising rate of infection in Merseyside that one way of bringing the Government to account and in St Helens, and about the increased incidence of would be to withhold our support until these important hospitalisations, but if these restrictions are to be imposed, questions are answered? we need to see evidence for them and a measure of financial support.ItspeaksvolumesthatnotonlyhavetheGovernment Sir Edward Leigh: My hon. Friend makes his point. failed to provide that in a bespoke way for St Helens and We are a Parliament and we are entitled to express our Merseyside, but they have stopped local leaders using opinion and hold the Government to account, and that the £40 million unallocated from the first round of is what we are trying to do this afternoon. business support to help businesses that are now having The trouble with the Health Secretary’s arguments is to shut their doors, and they have asked for that money that he is always raising up Aunt Sallies and pretending back. That is shameful and it is not a way for the that some of us want to let this thing rip. We are simply Government to bring the public along with them. trying to ask questions of the Government and hold This is fundamentally about the people who live in them to account. No Member of Parliament wants to my constituency. We are a resilient people in St Helens let this thing rip, but what we do say is that the real and we have been through a lot, but resilience is not danger of the disease is to people over 80. The average enough to get us through this. We need help from the age of death is 82, and the vast number of them are over Government. Our businesses need the resources to survive, 80. It is up to the older population and those who care and our NHS needs the tools and staff to get through a for them to take self-responsibility—masked by all means, difficult number of months. I fail to see how imposing a taking great care and shielding even in places of multiple tier 3 lockdown on one part of the country with diverse occupation. We have to shield elderly people—they are rates contained within its entity will do very much to the people at risk—but we have to get the country back mitigate this—the SAGE report said the same yesterday. to work. We simply cannot go on bailing out businesses. It is time that everybody shared in the pain in a short We are going bankrupt, as I said to the Chief Secretary break—a national lockdown for two weeks—to get this to the Treasury earlier this afternoon. under control and for the Government to develop an With the economy, we are hoping to pull ourselves up exit strategy to get the whole country out of this mess. by the hair. We cannot do it. We have to allow people to work, and therefore the whole approach needs to change. We need to emphasise the need to shield the elderly 5.2 pm population and those who care for them and we need Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): I will start people to take back control of their own lives. I repeat—I by disagreeing with the hon. Member for St Helens will say it again and again—that if we go on cancelling North (Conor McGinn), because another lockdown 239 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 240 Regulations Regulations [Christian Wakeford] My constituency of Leicester East has been in lockdown, or under significant restrictive measures, whether we would be the wrong thing to do. I rise to speak to call it tier 3, as it was then, or tier 2, as it is now, for over statutory instruments 1103, 1104 and 1105, on the 100 days—to be precise, 106—at great cost to livelihoods, tiered approach, and to SI 1029, although I believe it our businesses, our collective wellbeing and our mental has now been superseded by the tiered approach. Although and physical health. The Government are failing on I rise to speak about those items, I do not support them. lives and livelihoods. I therefore do not believe that they I am a friend of the Government, and sometimes the have ever had this virus under control, and I fear that best thing a friend can do is be a critical friend. I hope the measures introduced this week will not be enough. that the Government will take my comments in that This catastrophe was not inevitable. Across the world, light, seeing them as critical but constructive. countries from New Zealand to China are returning to Although I welcome the premise of a three-tiered normality. I hope that you will forgive me, Mr Deputy approach, in simplifying what was a patchwork of Speaker, for saying that no city has borne a greater restrictions across the country, I am unfortunately unable brunt of the Government’s failed approach than Leicester. to support it in its current format. While the 10 pm Sadly, the Government have wasted the sacrifices of the curfew is involved, I see this doing nothing but harm to British people, as we are now in a similar position to a sector that has done everything asked of it by the where we were in March. They spent £12 billion on a Government. Obviously, we have limited the number of failed test and trace programme, which prioritises the clients these businesses can have and now we have enrichment of private corporations over the protection limited the number of hours they can open for, which is of our communities. causing them real harm, not only in my constituency Rather than trust local health experts and the public but across the north and the country. SAGE has said sector, the Government have outsourced responsibility that the curfew was likely to have only a marginal to corporate giants, which have consistently failed, with impact and looking at the data we see that that is unacceptable contract rates as low as 50% or lower. My evidently the case, with a small percentage of transmission home city of Leicester is a prime example of the contrasting taking place in this environment. As such, I urge Ministers success of an underfunded local public health-led trace to follow the science in this regard and remove the curfew system. The success rate for our contact system is over as early as possible. 85%. The wasteful experiment of the private sector in Although I appreciate what the Government are trying our test and trace system must end. to achieve with the tiered system, it falls far short. We It should be simple: if someone is contacted by NHS are very much doomed to going down the “Hotel Test and Trace they must be provided with the material California” approach whereby we are having restrictions means to isolate. It does not matter what rules are set if imposed on us that we may never leave. Thresholds no one in government is taking these matters seriously whereby we can go up or down a tier have not been and if they are interpreting the rules to suit their own made clear. My constituency is at the peak of tier 2 and interests. The Government are not even following the so is at risk of being in tier 3 soon, but we have no idea advice of their own scientists, who make it clear what where the threshold is to go into tier 3 or what we would needs to be done to put the health of the nation first need to meet to come back out of it should we go into and protect lives. it. Further support needs to go to tier 2—not only to businesses that are struggling already but in order to 5.8 pm prevent a need to go into tier 3, which should ultimately be a last resort. Hopefully with earlier intervention we Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I am very can mitigate the need for any further places to go into pleased to be able to contribute to this debate. When I tier 3. put in to speak at the end of last week, it was on the basis that we would be discussing the nationwide 10 o’clock There needs to be far more support for those sectors curfew, but of course events have intervened and we that, under Government edict, are being closed, whether now find ourselves in a situation of a tiered approach that be the events industry or the wedding industry, towards lockdown. Many of us on the Conservative which are having severely limited numbers imposed Benches will know that if, as I expect, no votes are held upon them. It is the Government who are saying that on the tiered approach, by the time we get to the actual they cannot operate; therefore, the Government should vote on the 10 pm nationwide curfew it will be somewhat step forward and support them. I think the Government futile. Even if that, to great surprise, did not pass, it are going down the right avenue; I just do not think that would not have any effect because those in the medium they have got it quite right. That would be my constructive level would still have that 10 pm curfew. None the less, comment to the Government. I give them a C for the I want to touch on it. marking, but a “must try harder”. I want to pick up some of the themes in the regulations, and the concerns that many Conservative Members 5.5 pm have. Sometimes I have heard it suggested that Members Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind): It is hard to who raise concerns wish to let the virus rip. On the follow such optimism. I would begin by saying that the contrary, we have great concerns that, if we are not Government have lost control of the coronavirus, but careful, we will rip out the heart of our economy and that would not be entirely accurate, because at every see jobs lost, livelihoods destroyed, and the impact on step of this crisis, from a nonsensical herd immunity health that all that can bring. We have already seen strategy to the initial lockdown delay,equipment shortages, hospital treatment times ripped up so that those who care home neglect, contradictory messaging, a privatised have something seriously wrong with them that could testing crisis and much more, the Government have have been treated will now have a terminal illness. failed to adequately protect our communities. Households and friendships have had their social cohesion 241 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 242 Regulations Regulations ripped out by the fact that they are isolated and cannot Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am sorry,Mike, share their precious time. For some people at the end of we have to move on. their life, this is the only time that they have remaining to see their family and loved ones. 5.14 pm I want the Government to consider that those of who Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I speak on this side of the argument do so because we are must start with some moments of sadness, which is concerned that we will lose more than the benefits that that, although we have heard much praise of the vaccines the covid protections they want to introduce could in development, the reality is that we do not know bring. I want the Government to take this side of the whether one is coming. If it does come, how effective argument with us; I want to see more evidence that the will it be? If it is effective, which groups will it benefit? restrictions will work; that a vaccine is in sight; that we Even if it is effective in wide groups, how easily will it be are having temporary additional lockdowns because made and distributed? We have so many variables and there is a vaccine in place. If there is not, we must be so many unknowns here. honest. We cannot shut down this country and all the people within it for years to come because it would not I appreciate enormously the position that the Minister be sustainable or accepted. and the Government find themselves in, but it is because My message to the Government is, “Please take us of this uncertainty that we need to look really hard at with you. In the event that there is no long-term solution, the decisions we are making tonight. These decisions we will have to live with this virus as we live with the are not just about the spread of coronavirus, or indeed other menu of risks that we face daily.” its prevention, but about the health, the mental health and the wellbeing of our entire community.Fundamentally, 5.11 pm they are not just about health today, but about health tomorrow. The impact on the economy is not simply Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): It is a pleasure something for the Treasury to be interested in; it is of to follow the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw fundamental interest to the Department of Health and Merriman). Social Care and to the welfare of every person in this We hear from Minister after Minister the mantra that country. That is why I ask the Government to think very we should follow the science or the medical advice to hard as they make these decisions. tackle the spread of covid-19. It seems common sense, The purpose of government is quite simple: it is to really. We now have the highest excess death rate in provide a stable platform on which people can build free Europe, and the worst recession in the G7. That is not and independent lives—not controlled lives, not ordered an act of God; it is because of serial incompetence by lives, but lives that are free and independent. Today, we the Government. I do not want the Government to be are taking decisions that are interrupting that and making in that place. Opposition Members sincerely do not that harder. I see the position that the Government find want the Government to be in that place. We all have themselves in, but I ask them to think very hard about loved ones and constituents with families and caring the powers that they are asking to take. responsibilities, and this is a matter of life and death. At the moment, we are not getting the predictability Yetit was revealed today in the media that SAGE gave and the consistency that we need. When we talk to advice about a reset—a short period of time; it could ambassadors or high commissioners of the United have been over the school holidays—and that advice Kingdom around the world, there are some countries was not followed. Now we have more of the same—the that have easy access to the UK without quarantine and whack-a-mole strategy that the Prime Minister referred others that do not. The rules that govern which do and to.Theonlyproblemis,certainlyinpartsof myconstituency, which do not are not immediately consistent. It is not that the mole hills are appearing rapidly by the day. One immediately obvious which will benefit and which will part of the constituency—Halton—is now in tier 3. We not. When we look at the different areas in the United can have arguments about that, when we compare Halton Kingdom, we see the same problem. This level of with other places across the region. The other part of consistency, of predictability, that is so essential for a my constituency is in tier 2, just to complicate matters free people to know and to invest in— slightly when we communicate messages to residents. Just an hour or an hour and a half ago, we saw the Sir Edward Leigh: All we want from the Government national figure for deaths—145 people have lost their is consistency. They spent all summer telling us to go life today. It is very serious in my constituency when we into pubs and restaurants, and paying us to do so. They look at hospital admissions and people in ICU. It is a told us all summer to go back to our offices, and now big issue and a big problem, which requires an approach they are telling us the opposite. Members might not based on evidence. That evidence states clearly and it agree with what they are doing in Sweden, but at least has consistently been argued for six months, certainly there is a consistent message. That is all I am asking of by local leaders, that local authorities should be resourced the Government. up and down the land. The Government should link public health professionals with a national system to Tom Tugendhat: My hon. Friend is absolutely right create an effective test, track and isolate system. That is on this. What we are looking for is the consistency to the major problem here. The hon. Member for Bexhill know that, over the next two, three, or perhaps five and Battle is right that we need a vaccine and we are years, we will have to live with this virus and perhaps probably going to have to live with this virus for some without a fully effective vaccine. We need a system that time. We need effective systems in place. people can rely on, can know what they are doing and Follow the evidence. Look at hospitality, look at the can be able to plan their lives, because, at the moment, it pub trade, look at restaurants. We have all seen the is off the bus, on the bus, off the bus, on the bus. For evidence presented by the Government— those of us who have served in uniform, we know how 243 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 244 Regulations Regulations

[Tom Tugendhat] Munira Wilson: Okay, but he has not denied it. [HON. MEMBERS: “Yes, he has!] Fair enough. I withdraw that much time that wastes, we know how much time that remark. This is not a party political point. I care for my takes, and it makes it so much harder not just to plan country, and lives and jobs are at risk. Please can we sort for weddings and, sadly, for funerals, but to make even out test, trace and isolate, because none of the measures simple investment decisions. Even those areas of the will work if the system is not operating properly. economy that are not closed down suffer because of the lack of predictability. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): It was a very I ask the Government to think very hard about the decent thing to do to withdraw that remark. decisions that they are taking, to devolve as much as possible locally so that those who are in closest touch 5.21 pm with the populations that they are elected to govern can Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The Government’s make the decisions, to follow the track and trace and to responsibilities, for both lives and livelihoods, require understand the effects of the virus locally, and, on a an almost impossible balancing act that is unlikely to much wider scale, to come up with rules that can satisfy anyone, least of all natural Conservative job actually be relied on not just for a few weeks, not just creators, who ask only to be allowed to get on with their for a few months, but, sadly, possibly for several years. business with as little interference as possible. The uncomfortable reality, however, is that our country would 5.18 pm not accept those struck by the pandemic dying without Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): It is a pleasure dignity if hospitals and mortuaries are full, and that to follow the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling means doing things that none of us imagined in our (Tom Tugendhat). As he pointed out, there is some wildest nightmares. significant uncertainty about when we might have a In constituencies such as mine—Gloucester is in tier 1 vaccine, so there are two critical levers to tackling this —the message must be for all to take the restrictions virus: one is public trust, which the Government can seriously to avoid becoming a higher risk area with yet achieve by taking people with them on the measures more severe restrictions. We must enable Gloucestershire that they seek to implement; the other is a functioning, Royal Hospital to have capacity to help those with locally led, test, trace and isolate system. covid and treat cancer and other patients. I urge the On public trust, the Government have made much of Government to promise less and deliver more and to following the science. Yesterday, we found out that there provide a faster testing service so that those at our were plenty of recommendations from SAGE that the universities, colleges and schools can function well. Government chose not to follow. The legislation that we They should expedite the go-ahead for Heathrow’s are considering is before us today. That may be so, but it 20-minute test for travellers and reconsider the details is up to politicians to make policy decisions and advisers of the 10 pm closure when supermarkets are still selling to advise. To build public trust, the Government need to booze later. explain their thinking. What are their trade-offs? They The Government should increase delegation to local need to show their working. When they have considered authorities, such as the responsible public health team these measures, what are the wider health impacts of at Gloucestershire County Council, and let us all share not taking them? What are the economic impacts of as much information as possible. As these restrictions taking these measures? People need to see for themselves, continue, they should carefully consider ways to allow and there must be trust from the public in following the young mother and baby groups to meet, for example, or new measures. I strongly agree that clarity of message is allow some fans at outdoor sport. We will need those important for public trust. small moments of joy to help us through an otherwise Many Members have mentioned following the science, difficult winter. I will support the Government tonight, and my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Daisy but those questions need answering. The cost of lost Cooper) made a passionate argument about the curfew, livelihoods will only grow while we wait to see whether which we know is resulting in other behaviours that these restrictions work and science provides longer-term frankly put public health and those businesses at risk. A solutions. publican in my constituency said, “We will just have to make up for the lost income by encouraging people to 5.24 pm drink earlier in the day,” with bottomless brunches and so on. That binge drinking will happen earlier, or in Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I people’s homes after the pubs have shut. would love to have been a fly on the wall during the The Minister will have heard my earlier interventions discussions that have just taken place, because I have yet on test, trace and isolate, and I believe that the 90 pages to hear from a west midlands council leader or a mayor of complex rules and regulations would not be necessary who supports the decisions that were arrived at, and if we had a properly functioning system. We got the there seems to be little evidence to support the tier 2 R rate below one in the national lockdown, and on decision. I am told that contact tracing shows that 23 April the Secretary of State said: hospitality is probably responsible for about 2% of contacts in Birmingham, and I do not quite get it. “Test, track and trace will be vital to stop a second peak of the virus.” Giving pubs 48 hours’notice of the plan shows indifference to the pressure that those people are under and the jobs I know he likes to talk about his very large testing that are at risk. system, but we have had all sorts of issues with data, and sadly he was making jokes about that in the Smoking I want to mention two things on testing. One of my Room last week, apparently. constituents told me she had developed symptoms and got a test at the local walk-in centre on 1 October. Seven Tom Tugendhat: Not true. days later, no results, so she ordered a home test and 245 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 246 Regulations Regulations sent it off. Then someone at 119 advised that, because she I know that the Government share a belief in the was tested more than seven days ago, they could not important of civil society, local government and trusting give her the results, and 12 days later, no test results at public health professionals locally. I hope that, as we all. Her husband is ill in hospital and she cannot visit until move through this terrible winter,we can adopt a different she has a negative test. Why are we doing this to her? model, relying less on the undoubted intelligence, goodwill Another constituent received a text at 6 am on Sunday and good intentions of people in this postcode and morning with the name, date of birth and covid test more on the people in the places we represent. result for someone they have never met or heard of. The test results were negative, but I have no idea whether the 5.29 pm person who actually took the test knows that. I have raised this matter urgently with NHS Track and Trace, Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): This global pandemic but frankly, I am sceptical about getting any kind of has had a horrific impact—not only a huge human cost suitable reply. My constituent has never had a covid but a tremendous economic and social cost, caused by test. How on earth has this happened, and how many the measures that have had to be taken to contain other people’s results have been sent to the wrong the spread of the virus. None of us would want to be person? World-beating—we would settle for something in the position of having to take these decisions, and I that simply worked. certainly do not envy the Minister for Health and other I have two final observations. First, why are Ministers members of the Government who have to balance the continuing to tell people that it will be okay by Christmas? need to safeguard both lives and livelihoods. It demands What kind of signal are they sending people at this a combination of the judgment of Solomon and the time? Do they mean it will be okay by Christmas and navigational skills of Thetis to reach what is often the then terrible in the new year? Is that what they are least bad outcome, in a situation where there are no planning to do? Finally, I would really like to know why right decisions and no good outcomes. we did not give council leaders the option of a two-week If we are to reassure not only the residents but the circuit break, as was suggested by the officials. Would businesses in our constituencies, many of which provide that not have been a much better deal for many of the the jobs, livelihoods and prosperity on which they rely, people in my constituency and in many other constituencies we need to be clear about the basis on which decisions around the country than the ridiculous proposals that are taken. I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for the have now been imposed on them? openness with which he has approached this, making himself, his ministerial colleagues, scientific and medical 5.26 pm advisers and officials available for a wide range of Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): I start by paying briefings on that evidence. tribute to the Ministers for the work they have been In the minute I have left, I want to speak briefly about doing. I recognise that they are in an incredibly difficult the obligations on the hospitality sector. Clearly these time and doing their best, so I pay tribute to them measures have a hugely detrimental impact on pubs, personally. They are trying to strike a balance between bars, restaurants and the many small businesses that clarity and giving, as my right hon. Friend the Member rely on them, whether in the brewing, events or wedding for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) has said, a consistent industries. We need to be clear about the evidence on message to the public, and trying to achieve flexibility the extent of transmission in hospitality and similar in recognising that the infection works in different ways settings and what has led officials’ and advisers’ clear in different places. They need to strike a balance between confidence that the measures being taken will make a the national and the local, which is not easy, and I meaningful difference. At the briefing last Friday, the recognise the challenge in striking that balance. chief medical officer said it was too early to be sure I do not want to talk about the risk to the economy about the extent to which the restricted opening times that we face, because other hon. Members have made in the last three weeks had made a difference, but he was that point very powerfully. I simply want to raise the sure that it had made a difference. As that data becomes tragedy that this pandemic represents for our communities. available, it needs to be shared with Members of Parliament The tragedy is that, as a virus, it works through human and with our constituents. relationships, through families and households, through communitiesandthegatheringplacesof ourneighbourhoods —the pubs, churches and sports fields, the institutions 5.32 pm that give our lives not only pleasure but identity and Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con): First, I want to meaning. I know that the Government share that sense highlight how amazing the community of Hyndburn of tragedy and want us out of this situation as soon as and Haslingden has been throughout this pandemic. possible. The sacrifices they have made have been unbelievably I accept the advice the Government are getting on the difficult, and we have faced higher levels of restrictions transmission and the value of all the different lockdown than most across the country. All through this, I have measures. I simply want to make an appeal for a response tried my best, as have local leaders in our community, to to the virus that is less about big business and big bring people with us, and one of the difficulties we have government. I accept why big business and big government faced is the varying restrictions. Many have said that the —Deloitte and Public Health England—were called in new tiered system and the simplification of messaging is at the outset, but surely we can say that we have tested the best approach to take. I understand how difficult that approach sufficiently to suggest that there might be the balancing act is between getting the numbers down, a better way to deal with this, a response that is less protecting those who are vulnerable and protecting about big government and big business, and more about people’s jobs and livelihoods, and so do most of my local communities and trusting the people and the residents across Hyndburn and Haslingden, who are professionals in our local places. doing everything they can to get our rates down. 247 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 248 Regulations Regulations [Sara Britcliffe] As many Members have said, where this virus spreads, it spreads in the one thing we hold very close to each The reality we face is that, in Hyndburn and Haslingden, other—our relationships. We live together, we grieve the rate of infection is now over 300 per 100,000 people. together, we celebrate together, and we compete together. As of today,40% of our ICU beds in the Royal Blackburn I get the sense from some that they think that the only Hospitalarenowoccupiedbycovidpatients.Hospitalisations option is to lock down completely. I do not think that are increasing, people are losing their lives and the virus is the right thing to do. We absolutely need to limit is taking hold across Lancashire. We are seeing this virus interactions, but it needs to be targeted in the right move from young adults to those who are most vulnerable. place, at the right time, for the right length of time. Nobody wants that, and we cannot let this virus go Sacrifice is important and it is sacrifice that will get us unchecked. These are people’s friends, loved ones and through this, but it cannot be without hope. family members. The Royal Blackburn Hospital is not That brings me to test and trace, which is the best cancelling elective surgery, but I echo the concerns of tool we have to make sure that our sacrifices are time- Lancashire chiefs about what will happen if covid cases limited. We have an enormous testing capacity, and continue to rise. I urge Health Ministers and officials to Ministers should be congratulated on that. We have continue their engagement with local leaders across done more than many other countries. But the capacity Lancashire. in itself does not protect us; what protects us is how we I also want to comment on how the announcement use it. I ask Ministers, either today or in the future, to will affect the hospitality industry. Many pubs across update us on the rapid testing that will be delivered in Hyndburn and Haslingden have contacted me about five minutes or 20 minutes, because that is how we will the financial struggles they fear they will face due to the get those human relationships back. That is how we will rule on only households and bubbles being allowed to get football fans back into stadiums, children into schools meet in their premises. My local pubs, such as the when there is an outbreak, and all the other things that Albion in Clayton, the Tinker and Budget, and the we want to do. If Ministers could do that, the hope that Hare and Hounds, have expressed their worries that it I spoke of that gives people a light at the end of the may have been better for them to be forced to shut their tunnel will come back. doors rather than to operate under tier 2 restrictions. It would be beneficial for the Treasury to look at a tiered 5.38 pm approach to the financial support available to the hospitality Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con): I pay tribute to the sector, as those who have to close will receive financial Minister and his colleagues for all the hard work they support while those who fall under tier 2 still face are doing at this time. tighter restrictions and could be operating at a loss of about 60%. I ask Ministers to work across Departments I fully understand, as the Member for West Dorset, a to find a financial strategy that matches the tiered very rural seat, that many colleagues in the House approach, as we urgently need to support the beating represent constituencies that have far more difficult heart of our communities. Nobody wants to shut their situations with coronavirus than I and my neighbours doors and most are doing all that they can to keep in Dorset. I know full well that Ministers in the Cabinet people safe in their establishments. will be treading the difficult line between public health and safety and the economy.However,in my constituency, Finally, I want to highlight how critical road maps I have 100,000 residents, 400 geographical square miles, are. If we need to move between tiers, then we need to 132 parishes, 117 pubs, and two people who are poorly do so with clear messaging and to bring our community in hospital with coronavirus symptoms. We are faced with us. We need to explain why certain measures are this evening with a motion that will in effect close our being brought in, backed up by the data. Let us do what village pubs at 10 o’clock. That is deeply, deeply damaging is necessary now to protect the vulnerable and save lives to our community. It is putting hundreds and hundreds while supporting jobs and livelihoods. of jobs at risk. I have to ask the Minister and his 5.35 pm colleagues to consider that this one-size-fits-all approach to the 10 pm curfew really is not right for rural parts of Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): It is always a Britain such as mine, where it will be deeply damaging pleasure to follow my hon. Friend and neighbour the to the economy. Can I just ask the Minister and his Member for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe). colleagues to take this away? I shall have real difficulty I welcome the tiered system because it increases the supporting the Government on that this evening—real simplicity of the messaging. That is very welcome, difficulty—and I very much ask him to see what can be because it is what our constituents need more than done. anything else at the minute. The vast majority want to comply; they want to do the right thing. But for the past 5.40 pm couple of weeks—I speak as the Member for Burnley, where we have had a higher case rate than most places Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): I would like to talk in the country—the complexity of the messaging has briefly about the need for a plan, the use of language been difficult. The next thing that they want is light at and the use of science. I am delighted that the Minister the end of the tunnel. They want to know that there is is here, because he is a very diligent Minister and I know something to look forward to. Will Ministers look at he listens closely to his colleagues. the four-week review period to see if there is a way to First, we need a longer-term plan than the one that I bring that down? The worry is that at four weeks, if we think is on offer. We need a sense of strategy and a sense are placed into extra restrictions—into tier 3—at some of clarity. We may be living with this virus for months point next month, we are looking at Christmas before or, in the worst case scenario, for years. Waiting for the there is even a review of when those measures could be cavalry in the shape of a vaccine is taking longer than lifted. we hoped, and there is a chance—a small chance—that 249 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 250 Regulations Regulations it may never happen, but even if we get that vaccine in We know that poor health leads to greater risk of the weeks and months ahead, it may only be a mitigation, severe covid outcomes and we are concerned with the not a cure-all. risk to health because of coronavirus, and the Government The promised return to normality by December clearly are not known to dither or delay, but one area—it is has not happened, so we need to articulate what is completely relevant—where the Government have dithered paramount to protect people as much as possible, while and delayed is the introduction of the minimum unit ensuring that the cure is not worse than the disease. I price for alcohol. What the Government could do right think that, at times, our posture has been reactive. That now to reassure pubs, which are not affected by that does not mitigate the fact that lots of good stuff has piece of legislation or that tax, is to curtail cheap been done: our economic response has been powerful; alcohol sales in supermarkets, which would not only Test and Trace, even imperfect, is an extraordinary improve people’s health but give the pubs a chance to achievement; and likewise, the Nightingale hospitals. recover. If the Government are not prepared to change We are getting there, but I do not think we are there the curfew, they must be prepared to give pubs a fair yet, and I think the answer needs to be more of a plan chance. and perhaps more of a decentralised approach. Many of The Government are already considering that; they us have had concerns about this. We have said these could bring this forward. It would reduce the drinking things to the Whips, and I have been very careful about culture, which is not helping, and improve health outcomes, saying so publicly, but I think we are now at a juncture which would improve people’s chances of surviving where it is beneficial that I and other colleagues are coronavirus and increase the Treasury’s income, which saying this. has to be something it is very concerned about. Secondly, on language, I do not think the language of The Government had no restraint in imposing the battle helps. Does the Minister agree with Professor Sikora, 10 pm curfew. They have shown that they can move who has said: quickly and aggressively when that is needed to protect “If you try to scare people with worst case scenarios, it doesn’t people’s health. Why do they not do exactly the same work”? and introduce the minimum unit price for alcohol? Talk of battle should be replaced by talk of “Keep calm and carry on”, because that is the language that I think 5.45 pm we need. Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): I completely Thirdly, and perhaps most critically, the Government support the Government’sefforts to help bring coronavirus talk about following the science, but actually it depends under control, to keep us safe and to protect the NHS what question we ask the science. If we say, “Defeat the and our economy. The easy clinical solution would have virus: suppress it in any way you can”, we get one course been a total lockdown, so the new tiered system is a of action, and potentially a very destructive one. We mark of the effort going into providing responses that must accept that the virus cannot be defeated, but be are tailored to localities. determined to mitigate it to protect as much as possible Everyone understands that social contact poses a risk the elderly and the vulnerable, while trying to limit the of contagion, so managing those contacts in pubs, cafes damage to other people’s lives through increased cancer and suchlike is absolutely key. We want to keep those deaths, heart disease and strokes and—God knows—what pubs open where we can—not just because of the jobs must be happening to mental health in this country with they provide directly and through the supply chain, but people cooped up so much. We need a sense of balance. because pubs are often the only place of contact for To me, on the pubs issue, and on gyms and swimming many isolated people. I think of the Chapel House pools, there is absolutely no evidence that shutting a wet-only community pub in Gornal in my constituency, pub or the restaurant in Yarmouth I was in on Saturday and James, the landlord, who is still making things at 10 o’clock, or shutting a swimming pool or shutting a work with about half the normal clientele. However, gym, actually helps prevent the transmission of this virus. James has told me that if his pub is to retain table-only 5.43 pm service, he will have double the staff as well. That is an equation he can balance for the next month or so only Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): I am glad to follow my by dipping into reserves. hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely), but also my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny My appeal is for us to revisit the risk profile of Kruger), who spoke earlier, and I will pick up his theme. table-only service in wet-only pubs, and to consider I represent constituents in Cornwall, and we are the perhaps more creative suggestions that might be even only part of the country that is a different colour to the better. At the moment, new, young staff might be covid- rest, because actually we have reducing coronavirus asymptomatic and moving from table to table taking numbers, which is why the 10 o’clock curfew makes no orders, and then coming back serving that table. Can sense. We have talked again this afternoon—I do not we not look, perhaps, at more creative ideas, such as a wanttorehearseeverythingthathasbeensaid,oranything— table calling system on rotation, so that an individual about consistency, yet we have told pubs they need to from each table, wearing a mask, is called to the bar close at 10 o’clock but we have done absolutely nothing systematically? to curtail the sale of cheap alcohol in supermarkets. All I am asking is that we revisit the science around Onceagain,weareseeingthesupermarketsdoingeverything this specific issue. Whatever the outcome, I feel certain they can to maximise their take on the back of the that Dudley people, and people in Gornal, will play coronavirus. Those in the pubs that have been told to their part in defeating this virus. close are looking out of their window and seeing large groups of people, after curfew, drinking alcohol they 5.47 pm have bought in the Co-op, dare I say, or other high street Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): I have no choice stores and supermarkets. but to be brief, so I shall make three short points. 251 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 252 Regulations Regulations [Paul Bristow] happen when the door opened and we all came out again? That little virus would be there, saying, “Hello, First, lockdowns hit poorer people—those on shifts, I’m back” and it would infect us all again, because it is a those in insecure work, those who work in retail or pandemic. hospitality, those who work alone and those who live in This virus is not going to go away. Two days ago, I flats or smaller houses. Poorer people suffer when the spoke to a professor who is working hard on a vaccine economy suffers, so it is deeply regrettable that Labour at a Southampton hospital and he was optimistic that Members have called for a second full national lockdown. a vaccine could be found. That is great news, but all That again reaffirms their position as the party for vaccines come with a health warning—they do not economic destruction. I urge the Government to resist necessarily do the job, as we have seen in the past. Flu is calls for a full second national lockdown. That would be still here. People who get the vaccine still get the flu. Flu harsh and destructive, and it would condemn people on mutates and new vaccines have to be produced. So even low incomes to much more difficult lives. if we get a covid vaccine—it would be good news and I Secondly, what happened in Peterborough during the would, of course, welcome it—the pandemic will still be last lockdown was remarkable. Stevie Wiley, Ishfaq here. Hussain and Zillur Hussain, as well as countless others, Is all this worth shutting down the country for? My inspired a city. We looked after the vulnerable. We hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow) delivered food to those who were shielding. We fed our does not want to be in tier 2, but all tiers are, in effect, rough sleepers. We come in different shapes and sizes, shutting down the economy in local areas, to a lesser or and from different ethnic groups. We even speak different greater extent. As a country, we are paying a terrible, languages, but we came through this as one city—perhaps terrible price, economically, socially, mentally, financially more than any other city—although I do not want to do and in health terms. Millions of our constituents are this again. Couples remain unmarried. Serious medical suffering in unimaginable ways. I will end by talking conditions remain undiagnosed and, in the case of my about my parents, who, sadly, have passed away. I know father, who died during lockdown, we are still unable to for certain that were they alive now, they would say, say goodbye in the way I would like. To be honest, I still “Richard, get out there. Get the country going again. grieve over this. Protect those like us as best as you can, but for God’s Peterborough has a rate of 56.4 cases per 100,000 sake get the country back on its feet.” people. For a big city with intergenerational households, dense housing and economic challenges, that really is a Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): With remarkable achievement. We have done the right thing one minute, I call Dehenna Davison. and we do not want to be in tier 2. I want the Minister to hear this very clearly: we do not want to be in tier 2 5.53 pm and we will do everything we can to prevent this. That brings me on to my final point. So many pubs Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): I know and restaurants in Peterborough feel as though they are time is short, so I will keep it brief, Madam Deputy being punished for doing the right thing. They have Speaker. The key point I want to get across is that, gone to considerable expense to prepare themselves for obviously, public health must be a priority but we must these restrictions, and the 10 pm curfew in my city is not forget the real human stories behind every one of having a devastating impact. Pubs and restaurants have the statistics. So we should look at not only the number closed—it is not that they might be closing—as a result of covid deaths but the economic impacts that lockdown of this. Why? When I look my local pub landlords and measures are having right across our country. I have bar managers in the eye, I struggle to answer that. So I been banging the drum for our hospitality sector, pushing urge the Minister to review that 10 pm curfew,communicate for additional support for it to protect those people who why he feels it is a good idea, listen to the industry and have spent their entire lives building up strong businesses reflect on what I have said today. that are integral to their local communities, right in the heart of those communities. I think of people such as Christian Burns and Cheryl Jeffrey. We must do all we 5.50 pm can to try to protect them as best as we can as we move Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): It is a pleasure through this pandemic. to be called in this debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to see the Minister for Health on the Front Bench—I 5.54 pm have huge respect for him. This issue is one of national interest, is it not? This is not about party politics; it is The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): As hon. about what we as individual MPs think is best for our Members will see, I have less than six minutes to respond. country. MPs such as me, who disagree with the I regret that I may slightly disappoint the House in Government to a large extent, are not heretics. We do that—untypically for me—I will not be able to take not want to “let it rip” and we do not want to see the interventions, having agreed with the Chair to enable elderly die; we are just trying to gauge as best as we can the maximum number of Back-Bench contributions. what is best for our country. Just because one or two, or We have heard many different views and perspectives a few, of us disagree with the Government, it does not today, and although I may not personally fully share all mean to say that we are violently opposed to what they of them, each represents an important and sincerely are doing. We have huge sympathy for them, as we have held point of view. Whatever the differences of approach never been here before. But I ask myself every morning, among hon. Members, it is clear that all Members and I have asked doctors and professionals this: if we passionately share the common objectives of protecting locked down the whole country again for two, three or lives and livelihoods. No one should doubt the underlying four months and covid almost disappeared, what would unity of purpose in this House. 253 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 254 Regulations Regulations As the Secretary of State set out, we have seen rapidly I urge hon. Members to join me today in supporting rising levels of transmission and infection, followed—with these regulations relating to the covid alert levels and a time lag—by rising hospitalisations, particularly in enforcement action, tracing and businesses, recognising the north-east and the north-west, and, sadly, increasing the very challenging infection point that this country levels of deaths. I think it was my hon. Friend the sits at today, with rising infection and hospitalisation Member for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe) who pointed rates. The fight against this virus is certainly not over out that this disease is sadly now moving from younger and we must all continue to play our part in tackling it. people into older,more vulnerable age groups.Wetherefore These measures seek to do that in a proportionate and need to take further measures to protect the public and clearly understandable way. This House and its collective the NHS—as we have done throughout the pandemic—as wisdom are vital to getting it right, and I hope that this we enter winter. evening the House will demonstrate that wisdom and At the same time, we seek to ensure that individuals vote for these measures. and businesses are not subject to restrictions that are 6 pm disproportionate to the risk in their area or to the risk The Deputy Speaker put the Question (Order, this day). that this disease poses. We need to continue to suppress infection rates and transmission. This is not just about Question agreed to. protecting health; it is also about protecting our economy. Resolved, As hon. and right hon. Members have said, regrettably That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local Covid-19 Alert there are no easy choices here. That is why the Government Level) (Medium) (England) Regulations 2020, (S.I., 2020, No. 1103), are recognising reasonable calls for a simplified and dated 12 October 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 12 October, be approved.—(Edward Argar.) clearer set of regulations, by putting in place a simplified, tiered framework so that individuals and businesses can The Deputy Speaker then put the Questions necessary clearly understand the rules in their local area, the for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that restrictions in place and what they will need to do to time (Order, this day.) comply with them. This helps to build on the consent PUBLIC HEALTH and compliance that many colleagues have mentioned Resolved, that comes with taking people with us and clarity of That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local Covid-19 Alert messaging. Level) (High) (England) Regulations 2020, (S.I., 2020, No. 1104), The Government are acutely sensitive to the impact dated 12 October 2020, a copy of which was laid before this that these restrictions will have on local areas, and hon. House on 12 October, be approved.—(Edward Argar.) Members have spoken passionately on behalf of their Resolved, constituencies today, including a large number who That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local Covid-19 Alert have made points about the 10 pm curfew, as the House Level) (Very High) (England) Regulations 2020, (S.I., 2020, No. 1105), and others will have heard. We have worked and continue dated 12 October 2020, a copy of which was laid before this to work closely with local leaders to seek a consensus on House on 12 October, be approved.—(Edward Argar.) the actions that we are taking at each level. In the time Resolved, preceding these announcements, we increased engagement That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Collection of Contact with local authorities at official level, and had meetings Details etc and Related Requirements) Regulations 2020 (S.I., with local leaders and directors of public health. Their 2020, No. 1005), dated 17 September 2020, a copy of which was valuable insights have helped to shape the new system laid before this House on 17 September, be approved.—(Edward Argar.) set out in three of these sets of regulations today. I have to say that I know of no Minister who has done more to Resolved, engage directly with colleagues, councils and communities That the Health Protection (Coronavirus,Restrictions) (Obligations of Hospitality Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., than my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. 2020, No. 1008), dated 17 September 2020, a copy of which was Local authorities and local leaders will be involved in laid before this House on 17 September, be approved.—(Edward any further actions and decisions about what level each Argar.) area falls into. Having previously spent almost 10 years Resolved, as a local councillor, I pay tribute to the dedication of That the Health Protection (Coronavirus,Restrictions) (Obligations council officers and councillors. I am clear about their of Undertakings) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (S.I., vital role, working in partnership as part of a national 2020, No. 1046), dated 26 September 2020, a copy of which was approach. We recognise that there are elements of the laid before this House on 28 September, be approved.—(Edward restrictions that are difficult for individuals and businesses. Argar.) I pay tribute to the British people and recognise the PUBLIC HEALTH huge sacrifices that they have already made. That is why it is right that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has Motion made, and Question put, introduced further support measures, alongside the very That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, extensive support package that he set out to the House No. 1029), dated 24 September 2020, a copy of which was laid earlier in the year. before this House on 24 September, be approved.—(Edward The measures in these regulations are reasonable and Argar.) proportionate, given the increased rates of transmission The House divided: Ayes 299, Noes 82. that we are seeing and in the context of our clear Division No. 132] [6.2 pm commitment to keep education settings open, and businesses open as much as possible. I reassure the House that AYES throughout, as evidence and the science—I use that Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter term in the plural—develop and evolve all the time, we Afolami, Bim Allan, Lucy continue to keep that under review, and I approach Afriyie, Adam Anderson, Lee emerging scientific evidence with an open mind. Aiken, Nickie Anderson, Stuart 255 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 Public Health: Coronavirus 256 Regulations Regulations Andrew, Stuart Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, rh Jeremy Penning, rh Sir Mike Ansell, Caroline Duddridge, James Javid, rh Sajid Penrose, John Argar, Edward Duguid, David Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Percy, Andrew Atherton, Sarah Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard Philp, Chris Atkins, Victoria Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark Pincher, rh Christopher Bacon, Gareth Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Andrea Poulter, Dr Dan Bacon, Mr Richard Ellis, rh Michael Jenrick, rh Robert Pow, Rebecca Badenoch, Kemi Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, rh Boris Prentis, Victoria Bailey, Shaun Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Dr Caroline Pursglove, Tom Baillie, Siobhan Eustice, rh George Johnson, Gareth Quin, Jeremy Baker, Duncan Evans, Dr Luke Johnston, David Quince, Will Barclay, rh Steve Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew Raab, rh Dominic Baron, Mr John Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David Randall, Tom Baynes, Simon Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Bell, Aaron Farris, Laura Jones, Mr Marcus Richards, Nicola Benton, Scott Fell, Simon Kawczynski, Daniel Richardson, Angela Beresford, Sir Paul Fletcher, Katherine Kearns, Alicia Roberts, Rob Berry, rh Jake Fletcher, Mark Keegan, Gillian Robertson, Mr Laurence Bhatti, Saqib Fletcher, Nick Knight, rh Sir Greg Robinson, Mary Bradley, Ben Ford, Vicky Kruger, Danny Rowley, Lee Bradley, rh Karen Foster, Kevin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Russell, Dean Braverman, rh Suella Fox, rh Dr Liam Largan, Robert Rutley, David Brereton, Jack Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, rh Andrea Saxby, Selaine Bridgen, Andrew Frazer, Lucy Leigh, rh Sir Edward Scully, Paul Brine, Steve Freeman, George Levy, Ian Selous, Andrew Bristow, Paul Freer, Mike Lewer, Andrew Shannon, Jim Britcliffe, Sara Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewis, rh Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Brokenshire, rh James Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sharma, rh Alok Browne, Anthony Gibb, rh Nick Logan, Mark Shelbrooke, rh Alec Bruce, Fiona Gibson, Peter Longhi, Marco Simmonds, David Buchan, Felicity Gideon, Jo Lopez, Julia Skidmore, rh Chris Buckland, rh Robert Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lopresti, Jack Smith, Chloe Burghart, Alex Glen, John Mackrory, Cherilyn Smith, Greg Burns, rh Conor Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Maclean, Rachel Smith, rh Julian Butler, Rob Gove, rh Michael Mak, Alan Smith, Royston Cairns, rh Alun Graham, Richard Malthouse, Kit Solloway, Amanda Carter, Andy Grant, Mrs Helen Mann, Scott Spencer, Dr Ben Cartlidge, James Gray, James Marson, Julie Spencer, rh Mark Cash, Sir William Grayling, rh Chris Mayhew, Jerome Stafford, Alexander Cates, Miriam Green, rh Damian Maynard, Paul Stephenson, Andrew Caulfield, Maria Griffith, Andrew McCartney, Jason Stevenson, Jane Chalk, Alex Griffiths, Kate Menzies, Mark Stevenson, John Chishti, Rehman Grundy, James Mercer, Johnny Stewart, Bob Churchill, Jo Gullis, Jonathan Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Clark, rh Greg Halfon, rh Robert Millar, Robin Streeter, Sir Gary Clarke, Mr Simon Hall, Luke Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stride, rh Mel Clarke, Theo Hammond, Stephen Milling, rh Amanda Stuart, Graham Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hancock, rh Matt Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Clarkson, Chris Hands, rh Greg Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunak, rh Rishi Cleverly, rh James Harris, Rebecca Mohindra, Mr Gagan Sunderland, James Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Harrison, Trudy Moore, Damien Timpson, Edward Colburn, Elliot Hart, Sally-Ann Moore, Robbie Tolhurst, Kelly Collins, Damian Hart, rh Simon Mordaunt, rh Penny Tomlinson, Justin Costa, Alberto Hayes, rh Sir John Morris, David Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Courts, Robert Heald, rh Sir Oliver Morris, James Trott, Laura Coutinho, Claire Heappey, James Morrissey, Joy Truss, rh Elizabeth Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Morton, Wendy Vara, Mr Shailesh Crabb, rh Stephen Henderson, Gordon Mullan, Dr Kieran Vickers, Martin Crosbie, Virginia Henry, Darren Mumby-Croft, Holly Villiers, rh Theresa Crouch, Tracey Higginbotham, Antony Murray, Mrs Sheryll Walker, Mr Robin Davies, David T. C. Hinds, rh Damian Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Wallace, rh Mr Ben Davies, Gareth Hoare, Simon Neill, Sir Robert Wallis, Dr Jamie Davies, Dr James Holden, Mr Richard Nici, Lia Warman, Matt Davies, Mims Hollinrake, Kevin Nokes, rh Caroline Webb, Suzanne Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Adam Norman, rh Jesse Wheeler, Mrs Heather Dines, Miss Sarah Holmes, Paul O’Brien, Neil Whittaker, Craig Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Offord, Dr Matthew Whittingdale, rh Mr John Docherty, Leo Howell, Paul Opperman, Guy Wiggin, Bill Donelan, Michelle Huddleston, Nigel Parish, Neil Wild, James Dorries, Ms Nadine Hudson, Dr Neil Patel, rh Priti Williams, Craig Double, Steve Hughes, Eddie Paterson, rh Mr Owen Williamson, rh Gavin Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Pawsey, Mark Wood, Mike 257 Public Health: Coronavirus 13 OCTOBER 2020 258 Regulations Wright, rh Jeremy Tellers for the Ayes: Fisheries Bill [Lords] Young, Jacob Maggie Throup and Zahawi, Nadhim Michael Tomlinson Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee NOES Abbott, rh Ms Diane Loder, Chris New Clause 8 Ahmad Khan, Imran Long Bailey, Rebecca Amess, Sir David Loughton, Tim AGENCY ARRANGEMENTS BETWEEN SEA FISH LICENSING Baker, Mr Steve Lucas, Caroline AUTHORITIES Baldwin, Harriett Mangnall, Anthony ‘(1) A sea fish licensing authority may make arrangements Begum, Apsana McCartney, Karl for— Blackman, Bob McVey, rh Esther (a) any of its fisheries functions, or Blunt, Crispin Mearns, Ian (b) any of its product movement functions that are not Bone, Mr Peter Merriman, Huw fisheries functions, Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Moran, Layla Brady, Sir Graham Morris, Anne Marie to be exercised on its behalf by another sea fish licensing Bryant, Chris Morris, Grahame authority. Butler, Dawn Olney, Sarah (2) Arrangements made by a sea fish licensing authority under Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Osborne, Kate subsection (1) in relation to a function do not affect that Chamberlain, Wendy Paisley, Ian authority’s responsibility for the exercise of the function. Chope, Sir Christopher Redwood, rh John (3) A sea fish licensing authority that exercises functions on Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Ribeiro-Addy, Bell behalf of another sea fish licensing authority under subsection Cooper, Daisy Robinson, Gavin (1) may charge that other authority such fees as it considers Corbyn, rh Jeremy Rosindell, Andrew reasonable in respect of the cost of doing so. Daly, James Russell-Moyle, Lloyd (4) Subsection (1) does not authorise the making of arrangements Davey, rh Ed Sambrook, Gary in relation to any function of making, confirming or approving Davies, Geraint Seely, Bob subordinate legislation. Davies, Philip Smith, Henry (5) The power of a sea fish licensing authority to make Davis, rh Mr David Spellar, rh John arrangements under subsection (1) does not affect, and is Davison, Dehenna Stone, Jamie not affected by, any other power of the authority to make Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Stringer, Graham arrangements relating to the exercise of its functions by other Doyle-Price, Jackie Swayne, rh Sir Desmond persons on its behalf. Drax, Richard Syms, Sir Robert (6) In this section— Farron, Tim Thomas, Derek “fisheries function”means a function relating to fisheries, Fysh, Mr Marcus Tracey, Craig fishing or aquaculture; Ghani, Ms Nusrat Trickett, Jon “product movement function” means a function Girvan, Paul Twigg, Derek relating to the movement of fishery products— Green, Chris Vickers, Matt (a) into or out of the United Kingdom, or Gwynne, Andrew Wakeford, Christian (b) within the United Kingdom.’—(Victoria Prentis.) Hill, Mike Walker, Sir Charles Hobhouse, Wera This new clause confers powers on the sea fish licensing authorities Watling, Giles to arrange for another such authority to exercise any of their Hunt, Tom Wilson, Munira Huq, Dr Rupa fisheries functions or product movement functions. Wilson, rh Sammy Jones, rh Mr Kevan Brought up, and read the First time. Wragg, Mr William Latham, Mrs Pauline Lavery, Ian Tellers for the Noes: 6.19 pm Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Mr Philip Hollobone and Lockhart, Carla Craig Mackinlay TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. Question accordingly agreed to. The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Government new clauses 9 and 10. New clause 1—Sea Fish Industry Authority: powers in FISHERIES BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME) relation to parts of UK— (NO. 2) ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. Ordered, (2) In section 2(1) (duties of the Authority)— That the Order of 1 September 2020 (Fisheries Bill [Lords] (a) after the third “of”, insert “(amongst other things)”, (Programme)) be varied as follows: (b) delete the words “as a whole”. (1) Paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Order shall be omitted. (3) After section 3 (powers of the Authority), insert— (2) Proceedings on Consideration and on Third Reading shall “3A Exercise of functions in relation to different parts of (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the UK etc. 10.00 pm at this day’s sitting.—(Victoria Prentis.) The Authority may exercise its functions separately and differently in relation to— (a) the sea fish industry in different parts of the United Kingdom, (b) sea fish and sea fish products landed in different parts of the United Kingdom, 259 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 260

(c) sea fish and sea fish products trans-shipped in different (i) an estimate of the total amount of income that the parts of the sea within British fishery limits adjacent to different Authority expects to receive during the financial parts of the United Kingdom.”.’ year from levies imposed under section 4 in The primary purpose of this new clause is to give the Sea Fish relation to sea fish or sea fish products landed in Industry Authority greater flexibility to exercise its functions Scotland or trans-shipped within the Scottish separately and differently in different parts of the UK. It inserts a zone (“Scottish levies”), and new clause into subsection 3, which will enable the Authority to do (ii) a description of how the Authority proposes to this. apply that income in the course of exercising its New clause 2—Sea Fish Industry Authority: delegation functions, and of functions— (b) refer the plan to the committee appointed under paragraph 16(A1) of Schedule 1 (“the Scottish ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. committee”) for approval of the Authority’s proposal (2) After section 3A (exercise of functions in relation to mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii). different parts of the UK etc.), insert— (2) If, as a result of relevant regulations, the Authority “3B Delegation of functions estimates that the total amount of income that it expects to (1) The Authority may authorise any other person to exercise receive from Scottish levies during a financial year is greater than on its behalf such of its functions and to such extent as it may the total amount of income that it received from Scottish levies determine. during the previous financial year, the Authority’s plan prepared (2) The Authority may give to any person authorised under under subsection (1) for the financial year must include a this section to exercise any of its functions— statement describing how the Authority proposes in particular to apply the additional income from Scottish levies in the course of (a) financial assistance (by way of loan, grant or guarantee), exercising its functions. (b) other assistance including assistance by way of the provision of property, staff or services, for the purposes (3) For the purposes of subsection (2)— of those functions.” (a) “relevant regulations”, in relation to a financial year, (3) The giving of authority under this section to exercise a means— function does not— (i) regulations made by the Authority under section (a) affect the Authority’s responsibility for the exercise of 4(2) during the previous financial year, and the function, or (ii) regulations which the Authority expects to make, (b) prevent the Authority from exercising the function and to be confirmed by the Scottish Ministers, itself.”.’ under section 4(2) during the financial year, This new clause inserts a new clause which will allow the Authority (b) the total amount of income received by the Authority to authorise any other person to exercise on its behalf any of its from Scottish levies during a previous financial year functions to the extent determined by the Authority. It will also is the total amount of such income as recorded in the allow the Authority to give any such person financial and other Authority’s accounts kept under section 11(1) in assistance to do so. respect of that year. New clause 3—Sea Fish Industry Authority: accounts (4) The Authority— and reports— (a) must publish a plan prepared under subsection (1) as ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. soon as reasonably practicable after receiving the (2) In section 11 (accounts and reports)— Scottish committee’s approval as mentioned in subsection (1)(b), and (a) after subsection (2) insert— (b) may publish the plan in such manner as it considers “(2A) The statement of accounts must specify the total appropriate. amount of income received in the financial year from levies imposed under section 4 in relation to sea fish or sea fish (5) The Authority must, as soon as reasonably practicable after products landed in Scotland or trans-shipped within the Scottish publishing a plan under subsection (4)— zone.”, (a) send a copy of the plan to the Scottish Ministers, and (b) after subsection (7) insert— (b) lay the plan before the Scottish Parliament. “(7A) The report must include details of how income received (6) The Authority must have regard to each relevant plan— from levies imposed under section 4 has been applied in the financial year in respect of each part of the United Kingdom by (a) in the exercise of its functions, and the Authority in exercising its functions including in particular (b) in particular, in authorising any other person under details, in respect of each part of the United Kingdom, of how section 3B to exercise any of its functions on its the income has been applied by the Authority in— behalf. (a) promoting the efficiency of the sea fish industry in that (7) A person who is authorised by the Authority under part, section 3B to exercise any of the Authority’s functions must have (b) promoting the marketing and consumption of, and the regard to each relevant plan in the exercise of those functions. export of, sea fish and sea fish products relating to (8) In subsections (6) and (7), “relevant plan”, in relation to that part.”.’ the exercise of a function, means— This new clause is intended to ensure that the Authority reports (a) the latest plan published under subsection (4), and how income received from the levies it imposes has been applied in respect of each part of the United Kingdom. (b) any earlier plan published under that subsection in so far as it contains a proposal mentioned in subsection New clause 4—Sea Fish Industry Authority: plan (1)(a)(ii) (or, as the case may be, in subsection (2)) to relating to allocation of Scottish levies— apply income during the financial year in which the ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. function is being exercised.”.’ (2) After section 11 (accounts and reports), insert— The primary purpose of this new clause is to ensure the Authority “11A Plan relating to allocation of Scottish levies sets out an annual plan that outlines how it intends to apply the levy income it expects to receive. This plan must make comparison to (1) Before the start of each financial year, the Authority the levy income of the previous year and where the levy income is must— expected to be higher detail how the Authority proposes to apply (a) prepare a plan setting out— the additional income from Scottish levies. 261 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 262

New clause 5—Sea Fish Industry Authority: committee Authority require confirmation by the relevant Ministers for for Scotland— England, Wales and Northern Ireland with the agreement of the Scottish Ministers. The new clause intends to ensure that levies ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. imposed in relation to Scotland require confirmation by Scottish (2) In schedule 1 (the Sea Fish Industry Authority), in Ministers. paragraph 16— New clause 7—Sea Fish Industry Levies: definitions (a) before sub-paragraph (1) insert— relating to Scotland and the Scottish Zone— “(A1) The Authority must appoint a committee for the ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. purpose of assisting the Authority in the exercise of its functions in relation to the sea fish industry in Scotland. (2) In section 14 (interpretation of Part 1), after the definition of “the Ministers” insert— (A2) The committee is to consist of or include persons who are not members of the Authority. “‘Scotland’ and ‘the Scottish zone’ have the same meanings as in the Scotland Act 1998 (see section (A3) The Authority must consult the committee on the 126(1) and (2) of that Act);”.’ exercise of its functions in relation to the sea fish industry in Scotland.”, This new clause inserts a new clause which makes consequential (b) in sub-paragraph (1), before “committees”insert “other”, new clause to section 14 (interpretation of Part 1) of the 1981 Act by inserting definitions of “Scotland” and “the Scottish zone”. (c) in sub-paragraph (2), for “such committees” substitute “committees appointed under this paragraph”.’ New clause 11—Safety Regulation Within the Exclusive This new clause’s new provisions require the Authority to appoint a Economic Zone— committee for the purpose of assisting the Authority in the exercise ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall, after consultation, develop a of its functions in relation to the sea fish industry in Scotland. They regulatory regime for fisheries in the Exclusive Economic Zone additionally require the consultation of this committee on the with regard to— exercise of the Authority’s functions in relations to Scotland. (a) adherence to the Torremolinos International Convention New clause 6—Sea Fish Industry Levies: powers in for the Safety of Fishing Vessels 1993 and Cape Town relation to Scotland and the Scottish Zone— Agreement of 2012 ‘(1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. (b) regulation of safety of navigation by fishing vessels within the EEZ (2) In section 4 (levies)— (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) the regulatory regime (a) in subsection (2), for “Ministers”substitute “appropriate shall be agreed with devolved administrations, whose consent Ministerial authority”, shall not be unreasonably withheld, and shall come into force no (b) in subsection (7), for “Ministers”substitute “appropriate later than 31 December 2022. Ministerial authority”, (3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) “regulation of safety (c) after subsection (8) insert— of navigation” shall include, but not be limited to, regulation of “(8A) In this section, ‘appropriate Ministerial authority’ acts by a person in charge of a fishing boat which causes or means— attempts to cause a collision or risk of collision with another (a) in relation to sea fish or sea fish products landed in vessel within the EEZ Scotland or trans-shipped within the Scottish zone, (4) For the purposes of subsection (3), a “person in charge of a the Scottish Ministers, fishing boat” shall include the master, the owner and the charterer (b) in any other case, the Ministers.”, (if any) of that vessel. (d) in subsection (9), after “order” in both places where it (5) A person guilty of an offence under regulations made occurs insert “of the Ministers”, under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to— (e) after subsection (9) insert— (a) imprisonment for a period not exceeding two years, “(9A) Any order of the Scottish Ministers— (b) a fine, or (a) under subsection (2) is subject to the negative procedure, (c) both.’ (b) under subsection (7) is subject to the affirmative procedure. The purpose of this new clause is to give the Secretary of State (9B) Before laying a draft Scottish statutory instrument power to make regulations governing the safety of fishing vessels containing an order under subsection (7) before the Scottish working within the EEZ in accordance with existing treaty Parliament, the Scottish Ministers must consult— obligations. (a) the committee appointed under paragraph 16(A1) of New clause 12—Safety of Fishing Vessels in the Exclusive Schedule 1, and Economic Zone— (b) such other persons as they consider appropriate.”. ‘(1) A person in charge of a fishing boat commits an offence if (3) In section 14 (interpretation of Part 1), in the definition of that person uses the vessel to— “the Ministers”, in paragraph (c), after “with” insert “(except in (a) harass or impede another vessel within the EEZ, or the case of an order under section 4(2) or (7))”. (b) endanger the safety of another vessel and/or those (4) In schedule 2 (Sea Fish Industry Levies)— crewing it within the EEZ. (a) for “Ministers” in each place where it occurs substitute “appropriate Ministerial authority”, (2) For the purposes of this section (1), a “person in charge of a fishing boat” shall include the master, the owner and the (b) after paragraph 3 insert— charterer (if any) of that vessel. “4 The Scottish Ministers must, before making an order confirming (3) For the purposes of subsection (1), the Maritime and any regulations, consult— Coastguard Agency (MCA) shall be responsible for— (a) the committee appointed under paragraph 16(A1) of (a) monitoring the conduct of vessels within the EEZ, and Schedule 1, and (b) passing information to a prosecuting authority. (b) such other persons as they consider appropriate. (4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be 5 In this schedule, ‘appropriate Ministerial authority’ has the liable on summary conviction to— same meaning as in section 4 of this Act.”.’ (c) imprisonment for a period not exceeding two years, The primary purpose of this new clause is to devolve, to the Scottish Ministers, the control of the Scottish aspects of levies (d) a fine, or imposed by the Authority. Currently, levies imposed by the (e) both. 263 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 264

(5) The court by or before which a person is convicted of an (3) The Secretary of State may by regulations add to the list of offence under this section may award compensation for loss of protected areas in subsection (2).’ earnings or damage to property caused as a consequence of the This amendment would include in the sea fishing licence conditions offence. a prohibition on using a fishing boat longer than 100 metres in (6) Where a fisheries protection officer, an official of the protected areas in English waters. Maritime Coastguard Agency or a Police Constable has reasonable grounds to believe that an offence has been Government amendments 25 to 35 and 37 to 56. committed under this section, he shall have power to detain in port any vessel or equipment used in the commission of that Victoria Prentis: This Bill marks a really important offence. step forward as we leave the inflexibilities of the common (7) Any property detained under subsection (6) shall not be fisheries policy. It puts in place the framework necessary held for longer than seven days unless authority to extend that for the UK to operate as a responsible, independent period is granted by coastal state. It allows us to ensure that we have sustainable (f) a Sheriff in the Sheriff Court in Scotland; or fisheries to provide benefits for future generations. (g) a judge in the Crown Court in England, Wales or The Bill’s fisheries objectives place sustainability front Northern Ireland. and centre. Six out of the eight objectives relate to (8) Any property held under subsections (6) or (7) shall be protecting the environment. It is critical that we are able liable to forfeiture at the conclusion of any criminal proceedings to balance those objectives as we need to. Additional brought under this section.’ quota we receive following the negotiations will be The purpose of this new clause is to give the Maritime and allocated in a new way, and I am pleased that two Coastguard Agency (MCA) appropriate powers to enforce safety consultations on quota distribution were published today. within the limits of the UK’s Exclusive Economic Zone. A person guilty of an offence shall be liable to criminal prosecution and civil That makes good our commitment in the 2018 White proceedings for damage, loss of earnings and injury. Paper, of which my Secretary of State is particularly proud, having put a lot of work into it himself. Amendment 2, in clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out subsection (2) and insert— This Bill is the product of collaborative and constructive ‘(2) The “sustainability objective” is that— working across all four Administrations of our nation and I am pleased that all the devolved legislatures have (a) fish and aquaculture activities do not compromise environmental sustainability in either the short or the consented to the Bill. It was, unfortunately, however, long term, and important to wait until we had that consent before we (a) subject to subsection (a) fishing fleets must— brought forward further amendments on their behalf (i) be managed to achieve economic, social and employment and that is why I am slightly embarrassed to say that the benefits and contribute to the availability of food Order Paper is full of very technical Government supplies, and amendments. Many are amendments that the devolved (ii) have fishing capacity that is economically viable Administrations could have made themselves, but given and does not overexploit marine stocks. the pressures on all the parliamentary timetables in the (2A) The sustainability objective is the prime objective.’ run-up to the end of the transition period, we felt that This amendment makes the sustainability objective the prime in a spirit of co-operation we should, if possible, make fisheries objective and alters the definition of the “sustainability these changes for them. objective” to make other objectives subject to environmental sustainability in the short and long term. Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): Amendment 57, in clause 1, page 1, line 14, after I understand the position with regard to the devolved “the” insert “short and”. Administrations, but I do not understand the position This amendment would change the ‘sustainability objective’ to with regard to Government amendment 36 and the require that fish and aquaculture activities are environmentally Channel islands. Why has that been brought to the House sustainable in both the short and long term. at this stage in proceedings? Amendment 1, in clause 1, page 2, line 32, at end insert— Victoria Prentis: I will, if I may, come to that very ‘(b) seafood landings into United Kingdom ports are shortly.It is an important point and one that I personally increased and maximised; and am very interested in, having been on the Select Committee (c) that an average of not less than 65% of seafood caught on Justice and written a report on that very subject. in English waters, across all relevant species, should The most substantive changes in the amendments be landed in English ports.’ cover provisions that make clear the ability of the This amendment would amend the “national benefit objective” to devolved Administrations and the Marine Management include a commitment to increase seafood landings into the United Organisation to delegate functions between each other, Kingdom and create a specific target for English ports. the extension of schedule 10 marine conservation powers Government amendments 4 to 11, 36 and 12 to 24. to the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Amendment 3, in schedule 3, page 53, line 24, at end Rural Affairs and amendments to Northern Irish and insert— Scottish statutory instruments to bring them in line with UK and Welsh SIs under schedule 2. The final ‘Prohibition on fishing boats greater than 100 metres in length in amendments are needed to implement the international English waters treaty with the Faroe islands. 1A (1) Any sea fishing licence issued by the sea fish licensing authority for England must include a condition prohibiting the Government amendment 36 includes a permissive use of a fishing boat greater than 100 metres in length in any of extent clause that will allow the UK Government to the protected areas specified in subsection (2). legislate for the Crown dependencies to ensure compliance (2) The protected areas to which the prohibition in subsection (1) with our international obligations. That follows a great applies are marine conservation zones and marine protected areas deal of discussion with the Crown dependencies and I as defined in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. recognise that they take their international obligations 265 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 266 seriously. This is a subject I personally have long been Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) very interested in and I have discussed the matter with (Lab): I have had a fair bit of correspondence with the the Lord Chancellor and my hon. Friend the Member Minister’s Department and I wonder if she will look for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), as well again at funding for the enforcement vessel. The reply I as other Members across the House. had from her states was that no funding is available for IreassureMembersand,indeed,theCrowndependencies, the enforcement vessel, but surely if she wants to support that activation of the permissive extent clause would her hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye only ever be used as a last resort and I am looking forward (Sally-Ann Hart) in taking back control of our waters, to continuing discussions with the Crown dependencies we must ensure that that is enforced. on that in the next few days and weeks. Victoria Prentis: Enforcement is very important and I Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): will look out for the hon. Lady’s correspondence and Will the Minister give way? ensure she gets a full reply. In our view we have sufficient vessels to control our waters. We cannot reduce risk levels to zero. The size of our EEZ, the potential Victoria Prentis: I would be delighted to give way to number of EU and third-country vessels that fish in our my former Chair. waters, and the potential lack of electronic data, mean that this is not feasible. However, we are confident that Sir Robert Neill: My hon. Friend does know this, sufficient capacity is in place to prevent illegal fishing. because she was a great servant of the Justice Committee We take this matter extremely seriously and I would be when she was a member: it is not just a question of delighted to work further with her on that. continuing discussions. As things stand, the Governments and legislatures of both Jersey and Guernsey object. It Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): is not just that they do not think a permissive extent Will my hon. Friend give way? clause is necessary; they object to its inclusion in the Bill. It is truly unprecedented for the Government to Victoria Prentis: If I may I will make a little progress insist upon a permissive extent clause without the agreement because I know my hon. Friend is speaking later. of the relevant Crown dependencies. Why, even in an emergency, go down this rather provocative step? Why Seafish is a fantastic UK-wide organisation that promotes not wait until such time as an emergency arises and let the efficiency of the UK’s seafood industry, and neither them legislate, as they have indicated they would? I nor—importantly—my counterparts in Wales or Northern Ireland support the amendments on Seafish. Seafish Victoria Prentis: I have nothing but the greatest respect has provided excellent support and information to all for the Chairman of the Justice Committee, on which the Administrations regarding the impact of the covid I was very proud to serve for so many years. He and I pandemic on the seafood supply chain. Seafish delivers have discussed this very issue before. The Government the hugely popular national fish and chip shop of the feel that it is important, given that these are significant year awards, which this year was won by The Cod’s matters of international law, that we retain the ability to Scallops—what a name—in Wollaton in Nottinghamshire. legislate for the Crown dependencies if they do not Seafish is able to tailor its work to different priorities. show the inclination to do so when needed. We very For example, it works to trial new types of sustainable much doubt that this will be necessary. I am sorry that fishing gear for the Scottish fishing industry. It has they are upset by this stand, but I do feel that it is the established and run the well-respected Northern Ireland right thing to do in the circumstances at the moment. fishing industry safety group and supported the industries Government amendment 55 repeals provisions of to establish the Aquaculture Industry Wales group. retained EU law concerned with the catching of cod in Seafish supports the fishing industry across the UK, the North sea, which, as drafted, do not achieve what regardless of how much each Administration contributes. they were put in place to do. However much the Scottish Government may protest and dispute it, the Scottish industry receives far more than Seafish is a fantastic UK-wide organisation that promotes its fair share in monetary terms of support from Seafish. the efficiency of the UK seafood industry. The amendments pre-empt the findings of a review of Seafish and do not address the impact there would be Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Many on the valuable services that it provides for England, fishermen, including those in Hastings and Rye who Wales and Northern Ireland. I remain unconvinced of manage the under-10 metre fishing fleet, voted to leave the need for these amendments. the EU to regain total control over our territorial Amendment 2 seeks to make environmental sustainability waters. They are seeking clarity and reassurance on the Bill’s prime objective. This version of the Bill has clause 12, and that no foreign vessels will be permitted significantly more focus on sustainability than its to fish or be granted licences to fish in the 12 nautical predecessor, and its objectives are unquestionably much miles off the UK coast. Can the Minister give that stronger than those of the common fisheries policy. reassurance and clarity? Unlike the CFP, and importantly, those objectives are legally binding on the fisheries administrations through Victoria Prentis: I would be delighted to.The Government the joint fisheries statement. We have also added the have been clear throughout that access to the UK’s vital and world-leading climate change objective, which territorial seas is out of scope for any fisheries framework has been well received by non-governmental organisations. agreement with the EU. Any access negotiated with the The bycatch objective addresses the root cause of discarding, EU will cover only the UK’s exclusive economic zone, rather than just focusing on the symptoms, as the CFP’s and not the 0 to 12-mile zone. That remains the case. discard objective did. 267 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 268

[Victoria Prentis] of our coastal communities. Again delivering on a commitment in our White Paper, I am really pleased to The Government have a proud record on the marine announce that the Government have launched a environment. The global target is to protect 10% of consultation on proposals to strengthen the economic marine and coastal areas by 2020; we have exceeded link licence condition for English-registered vessels. that. Some 25% of UK waters are currently protected, and we are pushing internationally for new global targets Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ to protect at least 30% of the world’s ocean by 2030. It is Co-op): A Labour party policy. noaccidentthattheUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, Victoria Prentis: It may well be a Labour party policy Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for now, but it was in our 2018 White Paper. The economic Taunton Deane (Rebecca Pow), is present listening to link is the route through which we ensure that there is a the debate. Her side of the Department and mine work benefit to the UK from quota fished by UK boats. I am extremelycloselytoensurethatenvironmentalsustainability glad to see consensus across the House on this issue; it is is at the heart of everything we do. clearly a sensible policy. Our consultation proposes a 6.30 pm more sophisticated approach than amendment 1 would deliver, and one that I believe will bring higher value The Bill’s fisheries management plans will revolutionise benefits to the UK and its coastal communities. how we manage our fisheries more sustainably by setting out targets and actions for specific areas, stocks and The consultation proposes increasing the landing types of fishing. This is a holistic approach that will requirement to 70% for quota species, strengthening the take the whole ecosystem into consideration. quota donation requirement, or using a combination of the two to meet the economic link requirement. Quota Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): One of our fears, donation directly benefits the under-10-metre fleet, and which perhaps the Minister can allay, relates to that brings great benefits to their local ports and amendment 42. Wales and Scotland have complete control communities. Under amendment 1, our vessels would of those decisions through their devolved Administrations; lose the flexibility to land where it is most suitable for Northern Ireland does not. Northern Ireland will be their business. That might not always been an English guided by the Secretary of State, who will make those port. Fishermen want to land where they can get the decisions. I understand that the Government may consider best prices, where it is most convenient or where there is making the Northern Ireland Assembly at some stage the most appropriate port infrastructure. For example, accountable for that issue, which means that they will the Voyager, which is registered in Northern Ireland, is have control. Is that the intention of the Government, too big to land in any Northern Irish ports and must and of the Minister? instead land into Ireland. Victoria Prentis: I am afraid it is too early to answer Turning to amendment 3, I know that my colleagues the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I look forward to and their constituents—indeed, all our constituents—feel future discussions with him about that. Some of tonight’s strongly about supertrawlers. There is only one UK- amendments do relate to Northern Ireland, but I do not registered vessel in the category of over 100 metres in think that he will be surprised by any of them. length, but I recognise that there are considerable concerns, for example, about the Lithuanian registered vessel, the I am concerned that those who support the sustainability Margiris. The Fisheries Bill provides powers to attach amendment are losing sight of the importance of the conditions, such as the areas that can be fished and the precautionary objective, which will ensure that we maintain type of fishing gear that can be used, to fishing vessel and rebuild healthy fish stocks, and indeed the ecosystem licences. Foreign vessels permitted to fish in UK waters objective, which is critical to allow us to take a joined-up will have to follow UK rules—including, of course, our approach to protecting our precious marine environment. conditions.When vessels do not comply with the conditions Those objectives will together help to deliver for sustainable of their licences, action can be taken to restrict or prohibit fishing much more than were we to have only the their future activities. sustainability objective. I am concerned that those who support the amendment would see the other objectives Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I was under the deprioritised. impression that supertrawlers were registered and agreed I am keen to be able to balance environmental, social by our own Ministry at the moment; I did not realise that and economic needs. I am worried that if the amendment they were not. The Minister implies that they are not. is passed, it would mean that, for example, infra- structure projects in ports that might cause a short-term Victoria Prentis: Part of the problem is that there is environmental detriment could not be built, which would no officially agreed definition of a supertrawler, but it in turn deprive coastal communities of future economic is fair to say that we have one UK-registered vessel that benefits. Another example is the issue of choke—when is over 100 metres in length. one fish quota is set so low that all other fishing in a Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) mixed fishery is effectively prohibited. Over the past (Ind): Is it not the reality that many of the issues that two years, if we had not been able to agree with the EU the Minister is talking about now will ultimately be a small quota above scientific advice for cod in the decided during the trade negotiations with the European Celtic sea, for example, the choke issue would have led Union? to the closure of many valuable fisheries in the south-west that aim at other species, some of which are certified as Victoria Prentis: No, I do not think that is the case. sustainable by the Marine Stewardship Council. When we pass the Fisheries Bill, as I very much hope we With coastal communities in mind, let us move to will do shortly, there will be no question but that we will amendment 1. As we have said, we must have the be able to impose licence conditions at the end of the flexibility to support the social and economic wellbeing transition period. 269 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 270

Pelagic fishing is the main method used by vessels Shetland demonstrate beyond peradventure that there that are over 100 metres in length. This takes place is no meaningful protection for our fishermen in those within a water column, and so is unlikely to affect the areas. Yes, the Minister is right that fishing is a dangerous seabed features, such as reefs and sediment habitats, industry, but it should not be made more dangerous by that most marine protected areas are set up to conserve. the sort of recklessness that we keep seeing, and if the Prohibiting these vessels will not protect MPAs from Maritime and Coastguard Agency has no powers to fishing activities such as bottom-trawling, which we enforce that, it is only going to get worse. And by the know damage them. As such, I am concerned that this way, it is not a probing amendment. amendment would not deal with the most important issues concerning MPAs. Instead, we should focus on Victoria Prentis: I thank the right hon. Gentleman preventing damage from the types of fishing that we for that clarification and I look forward to working know effect MPAs, which involve the trawling of nets further with him on the important issue of safety. The on the seabed. More than 90 inshore MPAs are now MCA raised the particular issue that affected his protected from destructive fishing methods. constituency in June with the German Government and To date, the common fisheries policy has restricted will continue to do so as hard as possible. We have also our ability to implement fisheries management measures raised concerns with the French Government following in offshore MPAs.Todo that, we have required the consent the incidents in the Baie de Seine—perfectly lawful of all the EU member states who fish there. Once we get fishing activity by, I think, Scottish vessels—that took to the end of this year, we will be free of that restriction place on Sunday night. and we plan to use the powers in the Bill to put measures In conclusion, this is a good Bill that learns the lessons in place very quickly. The House will welcome the fact of the common fisheries policy, and I know that that is that the Marine Management Organisation will shortly recognised across this House. It puts in place a framework be launching a call for evidence on its assessment of the to develop sustainable fisheries, which will benefit the management measures needed in one inshore and four nation as a whole as we become an independent coastal offshore MPAs. This is the start of engagement in advance state. of our new policies being put in place early next year. It is important that we develop these policies in conjunction Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): I rise to with the industry.Fishermen want to work in partnership speak to the amendments that stand in my name and with us on this, as was demonstrated by the fishermen the name of the shadow Environment Secretary, my who raised concerns about the scallop fishery on the hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Dogger Bank, which we were then able to close. Devonport (Luke Pollard). I begin by paying tribute to Turning to new clauses 11 and 12, on safety, we all the six fishers who went to work last year and tragically recognise that fishing remains a dangerous occupation. did not return home. We are agreed that it is important that all fishermen For the Opposition, today’s debate is focused on two have a fair and safe working environment. I would like simplequestions.First,howcommittedarethisConservative once again to pay tribute to all those who work at sea Government to sustainable fishing, and secondly, do and who are at sea now, and I am grateful for the this Government really care about jobs in coastal opportunity to talk about this important matter again communities? I believe Labour’s amendments to this today. And of course I pay tribute to my hon. Friend Bill make it stronger. Amendment 1 increases seafood the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray), landings into UK ports and calls for the majority of who has worked so hard in this area, and to the other fish caught in English waters to be landed in English Members who have, too. ports. Amendment 2 makes the sustainability objective The Government strongly condemn any aggressive the prime objective of the Bill and means that environmental actions taken at sea that make safety worse, particularly sustainability will be considered in the short and the long when this is done deliberately. We have had appalling term. Amendment 3 bans supertrawlers from vulnerable instances off Shetland, which I think we may be hearing marine habitats and conservation zones. about later, with German-Spanish gillnetters, and in the Our amendments close the gap between what the Baie de Seine with French vessels very recently, over the Conservatives have promised to do and this Bill, because weekend. Videos of those incidents are truly horrifying, right now the Fisheries Bill does not make good on the and the fact that there have not been real injuries Government’scommitments to fishers,coastal communities recently is, quite frankly, a miracle. or voters concerned about the environment. Today, the I know this is a probing amendment, but I would say Government have announced three consultations into that the UK already has the powers to prevent unacceptable how to split additional quota from EU negotiations, the or dangerous practices within our territorial waters that allocation of quotas for new entrants to the sector and cover all UK vessels anywhere in the world. We, like attaching licensing additions to vessels so that British other coastal states, rely on flag states being responsible fish is landed in British ports. Those are matters that for the conduct of their vessels in our EEZ. We will have been repeatedly voted against in the Bill Committee. explore what further action can be taken with the We do, of course, welcome their apparent adoption of Marine and Coastguard Agency, the Department for Labour policy today, but consulting on something is Transport and other interested parties. We will continue not the same as taking action. We want the Government to raise issues with the flag state of any vessels concerned, to make good on their promises to voters, not simply to as the MCA did with the German Government in June pay lip service by announcing consultations on the day after the incident in the Shetlands. this Bill is considered on Report. Mr Carmichael: The question is not about territorial Mrs Murray: The hon. Lady is talking about that waters; it is about operation within the exclusive economic economic link, but does she not recognise that it was a zone, from 12 miles to 200 miles. The incidents off Conservative Government in 1988 that passed the Merchant 271 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 272

[Mrs Sheryll Murray] Stephanie Peacock: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his important point. I am sure he will be interested to Shipping Act and the European Court of Justice that know that the British Ports Association does indeed overturned it? It is not Labour party policy; it was support Labour’s amendments this evening. That is originally a Conservative policy many decades ago. because Labour’s amendments would ensure that fisheries management decisions are made through the lens of Stephanie Peacock: I know that the hon. Lady speaks environmental sustainability, which will result in long with great experience as chair of the all-party fisheries and short-term benefits. It will result in a more resilient group, and I am sure that, like me, she will be aware that and productive marine ecosystem and lead to increased for every one job created at sea another 10 are created long-term catches, industry profits and benefits for on land— coastal communities. Will the Minister give an assurance tonight, on the Floor of the House, that decisions made Mrs Murray: Eight. in relation to fisheries management will not compromise environmental sustainability in the short and long term, Stephanie Peacock: Eight—I stand corrected. Eight jobs which, as she knows, is set out in the Bill? are created on land to every one job at sea. The hon. Let me move on to amendment 3, which prohibits Lady will see that there is a clear benefit. That is what vessels greater than 100 metres in length from marine amendment 1 speaks to. conservation zones and protected areas in English waters. These were defined in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. A Greenpeace investigation has revealed that, 6.45 pm last year, supertrawlers, industrial vessels longer than I would like to speak in more detail about amendment 1, 100 metres that hoover up hundreds of tonnes of fish a which will help bring investment back to seaside towns day, spent nearly 3,000 hours fishing in parts of UK and ports. In recent years, coastal communities have waters that are supposed to be protected. These areas faced declining wages and job opportunities. The statistic were created with the purpose of safeguarding vulnerable that I have just quoted is really important, which is that marine habitats and iconic species such as dolphins, yet for every one job at sea, eight to 10 jobs are created on in the first six months of 2020, supertrawler activity in land. Labour’s jobs in coastal communities amendment marine protected areas was almost double that of the takes this statistic and makes it into policy.Our amendment whole of last year. would bring much needed investment and job opportunities to areas that have struggled under the common fisheries Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): Will policy and 10 years of austerity. my hon. Friend join me in asking the Minister why the UK Government have called for the global community Emma Hardy: I thank my hon. Friend for her excellent to increase protection of world oceans by up to 30% by speech and say that, like me, she probably doesn’t recall 2030 when they have shown a reluctance to follow 1988 that well. At one time Hull was one of the world- through with their commitments by supporting a ban leading areas for fishing ports and industry, so does she on supertrawlers fishing in marine protected areas? agree that Labour’s amendment could bring some much needed jobs to areas such as Hull? Stephanie Peacock: I thank my hon. Friend for making that important point. She is right: the Government like Stephanie Peacock: I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend to call themselves a global ocean champion, but we want makes an important point. I know that she is a hard- that same commitment back home, because at present working campaigner for the fishing industry that benefits our MPA network is nothing more than lines on a map. her community in Hull. That is why we believe that Our amendment 3 does just that. landing seafood caught in British waters in British ports will help to level up our coastal community. It will Jonathan Edwards: I strongly support amendment 3, support jobs not just on boats, but in landing, processing but I am sure the hon. Lady will understand why, as a and onward transportation. Welsh MP,I cannot vote for an England-only amendment, With the sustainability objective, there is still time to although I understand why it is England-only. May I seize the chance offered by amendment 2 to put in place implore her to ask her colleagues in Cardiff to bring fisheries legislation that begins to reverse biodiversity forward similar measures for Wales, to protect Welsh decline. In the Conservative election manifesto, voters waters? were promised “a legal commitment to fish sustainably”. Stephanie Peacock: I thank the hon. Gentleman for By the Government’s own admission, we will not be his intervention. We have tried to make our amendments able to achieve the 2020 target for the good environmental devolution-friendly, but we hope that our colleagues in status for many years the devolved Administrations will see merit in them. “unless there are further improvements to fisheries management Labour’s amendments are backed by Greenpeace, the measures.” Marine Conservation Society, Greener UK and the British Ports Association, to name but a few. I urge Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. every Member of the House to think very carefully Lady agree that one of the important things we must do before they vote today about whether they will be to sustain our fishing communities is to ensure that our voting to support more jobs in coastal communities, to ports and landing areas are improved? There should be protect marine habitats and to ensure the longevity of additional support for those areas so that we really can our fishing industry, because that is what the Labour benefit from an increase in our seafaring catch. party will be voting for. 273 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 274

Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a great Most of our fisheries are small family businesses. pleasure to speak in this historic debate. After 40 years, Over 80% of them employ fewer than five people. We we can now look at a fishing policy for the United can grow the sector with access to more fish and good Kingdom, and it is a great moment. I sat in the European reciprocal deals. Lots of people say that the fishing Parliament for 10 years, and I do not think many in this industry is not important, but I believe that it is very House, whether they liked the common agricultural important to this country because we are a coastal policy or not, would stand up and support the common nation. It is interesting that we can and will eat more fisheries policy, because it was not a great success. This fish. The more we have control over our fishing waters, is the moment to rectify many of the wrongs that the more interest there will be in eating fish. People are happened. As I have said before in the Chamber, there is becoming more and more interested in the food they no doubt that when we went into what was the Common eat, and fish will be very much part of that. Market back in the 1970s, the fishing industry paid a The UK has a large fishing zone compared with heavy price, and it is time to put that right. Not only many of our continental neighbours. Under the common was the share of fish wrong for United Kingdom fishermen, fisheries policy,EU fishermen benefit hugely from reciprocal but the policy also saw millions of tonnes of healthy access to UK waters. In 2015, for example, EU vessels fish being discarded over the years. We now have the caught some 383,000 tonnes in UK waters, raising some opportunity to put that right. £484 million in revenue. In the same year, UK vessels I very much welcome the Bill. The Government will caught only 111,000 tonnes in EU member states’ waters, probably be delighted that I am fully supporting them raising £114 million, so there is a great benefit to leaving tonight; I will make no further comment on that. I support the common fisheries policy. EU vessels benefited by a Government new clause 8, because we need to bring back ratio of 6:1 under the CFP. I do not think anyone could control of our waters, so that we can catch more fish believe that that is fair. We need to rebalance this and and manage it more sustainably.Wealso need to remember reduce EU vessels’ access to a more sustainable level. that many fish stocks move between national waters, We are an independent coastal state. We reclaim our and because there is common access to them, they are at waters, we reclaim the fish and then we sit down and risk of being over-exploited. We can do much more to negotiate, under our rules and regulations, what access manage this as an independent coastal state than we there may or may not be to European vessels. could when we were part of the common fisheries policy. When we leave the common fisheries policy at the end I think we can all agree that the common fisheries of this year, we will have control over our waters. This policy was not ideal. It was cumbersome and slow, and will be good for our marine environment and good for getting 26 member states to agree to any changes in local fishing industries and coastal communities, who policy was almost impossible. Outside the common will benefit from a greater catch, especially for our under- fisheries policy, we can shut down places that are being 10 metre fleet. overfished more quickly, like Norway, and open up other fishing grounds that can be exploited. I am glad The Government have been wise to look at the Norway that Ministers have been closely following the way that model when it comes to fisheries because Norway has Norway approaches its agreements. We have signed an far greater control over its waters and acts quickly to agreement with the Norwegians, which shows that this shut them down if they are being over-fished. The can be done; there is only the mere detail of signing the Fisheries Bill is therefore a great opportunity to ensure agreement with the EU, but that is proving a little that we can operate a more dynamic fisheries management difficult at the moment. Each year, our UK fishing fleet system. The Bill is also a significant opportunity to lands £32 million-worth of fish from Norwegian waters, deliver a much needed reversal of the fortunes of coastal so this is an excellent start. communities and small-scale fishers, and I greatly welcome We eat a great deal of cod in this country, some of the direction of travel of our DEFRA Ministers. I also which we catch and much of which we import. We have look forward to being able to help the sea anglers of this to ensure that we keep our export markets, because we country and make sure that they have access to fish, export much of the fish we catch. In coastal communities because they are a huge economic benefit to the fishing like mine—we have a little coastline in Seaton, Branscombe industry but also to recreational fishing. and Beer; it is not massive, but it is there—people expect I welcome the Bill tonight. to see great benefits from leaving the common fisheries policy, and we need to see that turned into a physical Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): I reality.The Government are right to drive a hard bargain rise to speak to new clauses 1 to 7 and amendment 57 on fishing in these negotiations, because it is something tabled by the Scottish National party. that people really care about. We said in our manifesto that we would bring back our sovereign waters and the It is notable that when Brexit negotiations ran into fish that come with it. It is socially and economically trouble recently the first concession that the Prime important to see the regeneration of our coastal Minister’s hand-picked negotiator reached for was fishing. communities after Brexit. Straight off the bat, fishing was first to be sacrificed. It Our fishing sector employs over 25,000 people. Around will be for a few years at first, but there will be more, 18,000 work in the fish-processing industry, which is step after step, until the promises that the Chancellor of important. It is important to enhance the fish processing the Duchy of Lancaster made to foreign fleets will be industry and we have a great need to market this great realised. Their access to our waters will be assured. fish that we catch. We have the opportunity to improve The fact that the PM picked this negotiator and, one our dietary habits and eat a little more different fish. has to assume, gave him his instructions, shows that the Many of those can be caught in Cornwall, and even those attitude that the fishing industry is expendable goes of us who live in Devon would be very happy to buy right to the top of the Tory party and right to the heart some Cornish fish. of the UK Government. Given the impact a no-deal 275 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 276

[Deidre Brock] Government that the current arrangements for the Seafish levy are not fit for purpose in Scotland and have had an exit would have on the industry, getting a deal is essential, ultimately detrimental effect on the promotion of our but in order to get a deal, this Government look willing fine Scottish seafood. The inequity of the red meat levy to sell out the industry. Heads and the fishing industry has taken years to be resolved. It is more than time that loses; tails and the fishing industry loses also. the issue was finally resolved and management transferred to the Scottish authorities, as would be consistent with devolved competencies. 7 pm The new clauses would enable Scottish Ministers to Mrs Sheryll Murray: Does the hon. Lady accept that further support the industry and promote the quality under the Scottish nationalist policy of staying in the and excellence of our Scottish seafood products. While EU, she would take Scottish fishermen back into the we will press only new clause 3 to a vote, I urge the common fisheries policy against their will? Secretary of State and the Minister to revise their opposition to these very reasonable processes. New Deidre Brock: I think the hon. Lady is well aware of clause 3 brings transparency to the levy finances and the SNP’s policy towards the re-entry of an independent the details of their distribution across the UK. Transparency Scotland into the EU, but I remind her that the Scottish seems to me to be a good thing. Surely no one could Government have called the CFP argue against that, and I can see no reason why the “the EU’s most unpopular and discredited policy”, Government continue to resist it. After all, the Minister so we would certainly be starting negotiations from that knows that a commitment was made at the time of the point. Smith commission that the Scottish and UK Governments would work together to explore whether to revise The National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations arrangements in respect of levy-raising using the specific sent out a briefing in advance of the Second Reading examples of red meat and seafood. Now the red meat debate in which it said: levy problem is finally on its way to being sorted, but I “If the Government backs down on its promises to the UK am afraid that the commitment to properly explore fishing industry, many of the objectives that the Fisheries Bill is arrangements for seafood has not been followed through aiming to achieve will be impossible.” on. There has been no such work and no such exploration I do not share the optimism about the Bill in the first to date of those legal and practical arrangements, which place, but I do share the concern about the impact is why I would like to see on the record today a commitment on the fishing communities being sold out by a UK to do that, with a timeline to follow shortly thereafter Government once again—sold out to get a deal on the for the long-promised internal and Department for way in and sold out to get a deal on the way out. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs review of sea Brexiteers relied heavily on the fishing argument during fish, which would take on board all the matters covered the referendum, promising that leaving the EU would in my amendments. produce a “sea of opportunity”. That was only ever going to be for some of the fleets, and I fear that it will Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): One turn out to be nonsense for all of them. The repeated point that I think is important to many in the Scottish promises of this Government to our fishing communities fleet, as it certainly is to the Welsh fleet, is to see an over years that Brexit meant taking back full control of increase in the reserve quota that would allow greater the seas have turned out to be as empty of delivery as flexibility for our fleet. We are keen to see a provision in the emergency Brexit ferry companies were empty of the Bill that would seek assurance that in the future that ferries. Chief negotiator David Frost confirmed that the will be the case. UK Government were offering a three-year transition period for EU fishers in UK waters on top of the four Deidre Brock: All from the devolved authorities would and a half years since the referendum, but we still do like to see that, and the hon. Lady will recall that at the not know what follows that. It beggars belief that we recent roundtable discussion between the National are in the closing months of the transition period and Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations and the Scottish we are still negotiating terms with our nearest and most Fishermen’sFederation the Minister said that a consultation important seafood export market. We still have no will be taking place on the distribution of quotas between outline of what those negotiations look like or what the the devolved authorities. Weare certainly looking forward possible deals might be. Fishing communities that rely to that. [Interruption.] And it has been launched today— on exports for the finances to keep their communities good to hear. alive are being left hanging, with no deal or no prospect New clause 3 would also mark a useful first step—long of a deal, massive bureaucracy if they now want to export, overdue—to giving effect to the agreed commitment in and huge queues at the border posts with only some the Smith commission report. Fiscal transparency and vague promises that their product might be prioritised accountability and a proper and thorough review of by customs. As an Ealing comedy, it lacks the humour current arrangements would help determine whether an and the humanity but it certainly has the farce in spades. equitable share is being received and how to address any At the very least, we once again ask the Government issues. This Tory Government may have forgotten the to take this opportunity to give some assistance to our commitments made as part of that process to bolster Scottish fishing communities and right an injustice that devolution and strengthen Scotland’s powers, but we has been hanging around for a very long time and where have not. they might do a little to make amends. New clauses 1 to The Secretary of State made it clear the last time we 7 make the case effectively for devolving control of the debated this Bill that the involvement of the devolved Scottish aspect of levies imposed by Seafish to Scottish nations had greatly improved it, but as that example Ministers. It has long been the view of the Scottish shows, and as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor 277 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 278

Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) has mentioned, the Deidre Brock: I assure the hon. Gentleman that that Bill is simply still not good enough. It is a hastily is something the Scottish Government are taking in cobbled-together mess, as we see when we look at the hand at the moment. dozens of technical amendments tabled by the Government We recognise that some sort of legislative framework in a frantic attempt to tidy it up. I feel sorry for the civil is needed and we have all heard the fears that there servants who have had to operate under these conditions. might not be time, even now, to put in place all the We are left simply wishing that the Government had fishing legislation that is required, but my view is that listened to the devolved Administrations when they the Bill is not what is needed. There is a shortfall were saying that we needed an extension before leaving between the great expectations that fishers and producers the EU or, even better, when they argued against leaving were fed by this Government and the deliverables. It is the EU altogether. Here we are being asked to agree not enough, it is not in time and it does not do what it skeletal framework legislation simply to cover this says on the tin. Government’sintransigence and their British exceptionalist view—it is a fig leaf for the absence of a realpolitik Scotland is ill served by this Tory Government and attitude in Whitehall, and a failure to appreciate the their failures, but so is England. There was a time when situation that the UK found itself in before the pandemic Ministers would resign for getting it so badly wrong, but arrived or the massively worse situation that unfortunately these days it seems that the default position is finding it finds itself in now. someone to blame, preferably someone in Brussels. We do know, but I will remind the House, that the law of the sea will be the fall-back position if, as looks Mrs Sheryll Murray: It is an absolute pleasure to increasingly and disturbingly possible, we end up in the follow the spokesperson for the SNP, the hon. Member worst of all possible worlds, with no deal. I know that for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock). I have some people have laid heavy bets on that scenario and got some news for her: she said the light was going out stand to make a lot of cash from it, but massive wealth on our EU membership, but as far as I am aware, we are in the hands of some is no substitute for a decent living in a transition period and the light switch has already for many. been turned off. It is also a pleasure to speak during consideration of this historic Bill on Report. The Bill The Prime Minister, in his best Bertie Wooster chant, does provide a framework for fisheries management wants to, “Get Brexit done”, as if there is a crock after sovereignty of this valuable United Kingdom resource waiting for us at the end of a rainbow, but even if we get is, rightfully, restored to this House. a deal done, we have no certainty of the position for fisherfolk. As I mentioned, the Minister has announced I want to address some of the amendments. It is just now that a consultation is being launched that will disappointing that the SNP has tabled such a divisive debate how any additional quota will be divided between set of new clauses, using the valuable platform of the the four nations, but that is if any additional quota is Sea Fish Industry Authority to peddle its nationalist there to be shared. As the scientific advice and information agenda. Perhaps we should remember that Seafish is from the Marine Stewardship Council makes clear,stocks based in two locations, Edinburgh and Grimsby. Board are not in the best of health, so there may not be extra meetings may be held at either office, or at other locations quota to share over that three-year extension to the in the UK. Seafish covers the whole UK and has served transition period. Equally, the Government have not the fishing industry well through its current structure. I outlined what they intend to do about the large chunks urge every hon. Member to reject these divisive new of England’s quotas vested in foreign vessels or what clauses. they think might be a sensible way forward for reallocating those quotas over the next few years. Will it be the Deidre Brock: Will the hon. Lady give way? fishing equivalent of a Government land grab, or will thingsjustbeleftwellalone,sothatthe“seaof opportunity” remains nothing more than a “Narnia”tale to be recounted Mrs Murray: No, I will not. Other people want to in years to come. The referendum was a couple of Tory speak. Prime Ministers and two snap elections ago, but there Other new clauses have been tabled by the right hon. still has not been anything worked out about how to Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael). I deal with the fall-out. The light is dimming on our EU apologise for speaking to them before he has done so, membership and only now, after this painfully long but he is after me on the call list. I know he is well journey, is the question being asked about what to do. intentioned, given his interest in promoting safety aboard We recognise that some sort of legislative framework is fishing vessels. He has been a strong voice for fishing needed; I should speak here to amendment 57 before I safety for many years.Owners of UK-flagged fishing vessels conclude. We propose inserting the word “short” before are responsible for basic health and safety on board “long term”to ensure that sustainability is not an objective their boats, safe working practices and safe equipment. that can be kicked down the road and not dealt with The Merchant Shipping and Fishing Vessels (Health until later, but must be worked on at all times. The UK, and Safety at Work) Regulations 1997 include measures it must be admitted, is not achieving a sustainable to encourage improvement in safety and health of workers fisheries management, so the amendment would encourage at sea. As far as I understand it—the Minister will correct the UK Government to take into account sustainability me if I have got this wrong—licensing will be able to when carrying out their duties. Our hope is that this will control the terms on which vessels from other member be seen as the constructive proposal that it is meant to be. states, or other nations, because there will not be member states as far as we are concerned, can access the UK Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): If the hon. Lady 200-mile or median line limit. It will also ensure that the has such a concern about sustainability, will the SNP boats that fish in those waters are responsible, as is the start addressing the Scottish salmon fishermen? behaviour of the skippers and crew of those vessels. 279 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 280

7.15 pm transition is the period of reducing quotas for other The amendments tabled by the right hon. Member member states and gradually increasing quotas for UK for Orkney and Shetland are really well intentioned, but fishermen. That is an important fact that I think the I will not be able to support them, because we already hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith selectively have such provisions in place. The Bill provides the missed out. structure for the UK to manage fisheries responsibly I had the privilege of naming the first electric passenger after we have restored control over our 200-mile or median vessel, e-Voyager, in my local boatyard yesterday. The line limit—our exclusive economic zone. As someone owner of Plymouth Boat Trips started out more than who has suffered the direct consequence of a fatal 20 years ago as Fish ‘N’ Trips, a small business founded accident at sea, and who, as a result, has a real interest on a lifelong passion for fishing. His name is Ben in fishing vessel safety, I gently say to him that I do not Squire, and with a £1,000 loan and a £500 grant from believe that this is the right place for his amendments; the Prince’s Trust, at the age of 21, Ben purchased a perhaps he would like not to move them this evening. boat and took the first mackerel and deep sea fishing I turn to the official Opposition’s amendments. The trips from Plymouth. He now has a sizeable fleet of National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations says: fishing boats and passenger vessels. I look forward to the future for this great UK-wide industry, and I hope “The NFFO supports the sustainability objective” to see many more people like Ben proudly taking the but believes that this should not be given fishing industry from strength to strength in the years “primacy…over all other fisheries objectives”, to come. as this would be Mr Carmichael: I rise to speak to new clauses 11 and “a fundamental impediment to practical and effective fisheries 12, standing in my name. It is a great pleasure to follow management.” the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray). Paul Trebilcock from the Cornish Fish Producers I listened very carefully to her remarks, as I always do Organisation says that on matters related to the fishing industry, and I absolutely “our fishermen have no interest in bankrupting the fish stocks understand her background and family history, which upon which the next generation will depend. As an industry, we has brought her to a very close interest in fishing safety have been proactive in seeking a Bill that recognises the real over the years. I am grateful to her—enormously grateful demands of modern fisheries management. This includes supporting to her—for accepting that I am well intentioned. I conservation priorities such as bycatch reduction and managing would hope, as I am a vice-chair of the all-party group stocks under climate change, as well as advocating for a system that can allow for the flexibility and adaptations required to on fisheries, of which she is the chair, that she would deliver on these goals.” have expected nothing less. The NFFO believes that a national landing requirement, I am afraid I was not entirely persuaded by the hon. although well intentioned, would cut across the ability Lady’s reasoning, however, and on this occasion I will of fishing vessels to land on to the most profitable stick with the views of the representatives of the fishing market, and potentially generate unintended consequences. industry, who say that amendments such as new clauses It welcomes the Government’s commitment to launch a 11 and 12 are necessary. I say to the Minister, who has consultation reviewing the economic link conditions. I obviously been told that they are probing amendments, genuinely feel that British fishermen will want us to that they are no such thing. Unless I am able to hear any ensure that the flagships that were allowed to stay on reason or persuasive arguments as to why I should not the British fishing vessel register through the Factortame push them to a vote, then with your agreement, Madam case are gradually removed. Deputy Speaker, I will certainly seek to test the views of the House on new clause 12 at least. Industry representatives have welcomed the removal in Committee of the amendments made to this Bill in The hon. Lady’s proposition was an interesting one. the other place. I am pleased that my right hon. Friend She said that we should rely on the provisions of the the Secretary of State has agreed to consult on these Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 and also on matters, as it will enable genuine fishermen to give their the licensing provisions. I am actually a great fan of the views. I urge this House to reject these amendments in Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. It is legislative any vote tonight. Although well intentioned, they were poetry. A whole body of case law and regulations have introduced in the other place and the fishermen felt that been born and grown up out of it, of which I am not they were unnecessary. always a great admirer, but the Act itself is very simple. I look forward to the moment when we take back Mrs Murray: Will the right hon. Gentleman give control of UK waters, for which I have been campaigning way? for almost 40 years—and, yes, I am an old lady. I pay tribute to the late Tom Hay and John Ashworth, who Mr Carmichael: I will just explain this to the hon. campaigned alongside me at that time, as well as David Lady, and then I will give way to her. Pessell from Plymouth Trawler Agents and his wife The Act creates an obligation to provide a safe system Alison. I genuinely believe that the future is bright for of work for those who come into contact with it. It is a the fishing industry that I have been so close to for measure that has to be applied in a way that is reasonable many years. and proportionate. I cannot imagine that any safe system I urge our negotiators again—as I did on Second of work would deal with the sort of piracy we have seen Reading—to hold firm in the negotiations. We must not off the west coast of Shetland in relation to Pesorsa accept anything less than annual negotiations and priority Dos, which I will speak about in a second or two. With access to fish for our fishermen. I would like to point all due respect to the hon. Lady, it seems to me that, in out that what people tend to misconvey when they talk seeking to rely on the Health and Safety at Work etc. about what was reported in the press as three years’ Act and licensing conditions, she is in effect saying—or 281 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 282 advancing an argument that would be akin to saying—that Sir Robert Neill: The right hon. Gentleman is making we do not require the Road Traffic Acts and the offences an important point. of dangerous or careless driving simply because we Is there not a further difficulty in that the Crown license cars, but if the hon. Lady wishes to intervene, dependencies have jurisdiction over their territorial waters, I will give way. so for us to legislate unilaterally for something that they have indicated since the summer that they do not wish Mrs Murray: I think the right hon. Gentleman us to do would be a most dangerous and, frankly, misunderstood what I said. I actually mentioned the entirely novel precedent? It is difficult to see how that Merchant Shipping and Fishing Vessels (Health and could ever by justified. Safety at Work) Regulations 1997, under which a massive number of M notices—merchant shipping notices—are Mr Carmichael: I absolutely agree with the hon. published, meaning that vessels have to be kept and Gentleman. My experience of Government is that there operated in a safe way. If we license other vessels from are issues that sometimes just dot around the civil other nations, we could insist, as part of their licencing, service waiting for a Minister who is prepared to pick that they behave in a responsible way and that the vessels them up and give them a go. This issue is not new. I meet the same requirements as UK vessels. know that the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), Mr Carmichael: The hon. Lady advances an excellent faced a similar dilemma and reached a very different argument in support of my new clause 11, but as it conclusion. I strongly suspect that this has been slipped happens, I am going to press new clause 12. The difficulty in at the last minute because officials somewhere wanted she has is that I do not hear any argument from her to advance it. The Minister should have resisted this. I about enforcement, so when we are in the exclusive say to her gently that this will not just be nodded through economic zone,if these regulations or licensing requirements when the Bill gets to the other place. It will require and are breached, how do we enforce them? At present, there get more substantial scrutiny there. is no power for the Maritime and Coastguard Agency As the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith to do that, but that would be a sensible and reasonable (Deidre Brock), who spoke for the Scottish nationalists, thing to do, and it would, I suggest, be entirely appropriate said at the start of her speech, there is a lot of uncertainty given the stated aim of taking back control. around the fishing industry at the moment, and that uncertainty is very damaging. It is worth reminding the Mrs Murray: I think it is the Marine Management House that the reason for that uncertainty was the Organisation that enforces licensing but in his area, the decision by the former Prime Minister, and the current Scottish fisheries protection agency goes out on board Prime Minister, to enter into a withdrawal agreement the vessels. that put an agreement on fishing into the political declaration. When that decision was made by the former Mr Carmichael: There will be no provision in licensing Prime Minister, I remember that the hon. Members for that will deal with the dangerous and reckless conduct South East Cornwall and for Moray (Douglas Ross), that we have seen west of Shetland, and that we will see and others, were rather unhappy about it, as was I, and in other territorial waters, I think, in the next few months we are now reaping the whirlwind of that somewhat as the political heat is turned up in relation to fishing ill-advised decision. and the changes that are going to come in on 1 January. I want to make a couple of points before dealing in 7.30 pm detail with the reason why new clauses 11 and/or 12 are I will now turn to new clauses 11 and 12. One of the necessary. The first is on Government amendment 36, things that still delights me about speaking in this place which I raised with the Minister in her opening comments. is the opportunity to make the Chair feel very uneasy I understand the reasons why a lot of late Government when we discuss matters to which the sub judice rule amendments to the Bill have come and I have sympathy might apply. I know that the Speaker and the Deputy with them, knowing the to and fro that there has been Speakers would get very excited, and if I were to do that between the Minister’s Department and the various they would be jumping up and down as if there were devolved Administrations, but the Bill is not new. We springs in their shoes. You may sit easy, Madam Deputy had the Bill go through all its stages in this House—certainly Speaker, because I will not be speaking tonight about the Public Bill Committee—once already. It started something that is sub judice, although it absolutely then in the other place and it has been through Committee should be. Indeed, if we had right the balance between here, so introducing at this late stage—when, frankly, law and justice, it certainly would be sub judice, and the there is little opportunity for meaningful scrutiny of it—a skipper of the Pesorsa Dos, a Spanish gillnetter that provision that strikes at a fairly important constitutional was operating 30 miles to the west of Shetland in June, point in relation to the Channel Islands as dependent would be awaiting trial for an offence such as the one territories requires further explanation from the Minister. that I have put before the House in new clause 12. Essentially, the difficulty is that saying that this is just Constituents of mine were crewing the Alison Kay, a backstop power is one thing, but the Government and they were operating in grounds that have long been giving themselves a backstop power that can be used used as fishing grounds for the Shetland fleet, close to unilaterally—possibly without any consultation, although an area where the skipper of the Spanish trawler had I accept that that is unlikely—takes us down a very just shot his gillnets. Gillnets run to several miles long difficult and dangerous constitutional path. I think that and are left in for a long time, and they are a particularly this requires greater scrutiny than this House is able to unsustainable mode of fishing. The skipper of the give it today, because once I have given way to the hon. Pesorsa Dos saw the Alison Kay trawling nearby, and Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), because it is a much bigger vessel, he essentially tried to I will not say much more about it. muscle the Alison Kay out of those fishing grounds. 283 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 284

That was bad enough in itself, but what followed was member, has just died following a two-day battle with utterly culpable and reckless. The skipper shot a rope coronavirus. I send my love and prayers to his wife and into the water in a deliberate attempt to foul the propeller pay tribute to a gentle giant, an awesome guitarist and a of the Alison Kay. Goodness only knows what might true family man. Rest in peace. have happened to that boat and its crew if he had been More than four years have passed since the referendum successful. vote that set out the future of our nation as a full, That was not the first instance of that sort—there sovereign Union. That has dominated the political debate had been tension in those fishing grounds for a long in this Chamber and outside the Westminster bubble. time—but it was the first time that it got videoed, and One only has to take a look at the map of the leave vote those videos were then posted online, and people were to understand the impact of the coastal communities in able to see it for themselves. I suggest that all right hon. deciding the future of our nation. and hon. Members look at that video, because it is The sea and our insularity as an island have always absolutely chilling. been fundamental traits of our history and our identity As the local Member of Parliament I raised the issue as British, English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish. with the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, which said, Because of our geography, we have always had to find a “This is dreadful, this is dangerous, but we can do way to connect with other nations by crossing the seas nothing about it. It happened outside our jurisdiction, and the channel, to boost our trade with nearby nations which stops at the 12-mile limit.” The case was then and to attract the best projects and talent from around passed to the German Government, because the Spanish the world. We had to navigate. We would not be such an trawler was flagged in Germany. outward-looking nation if we were not an island. While I have a letter from 1 January from the Dienststelle my constituency is not directly on the sea, I was born Schiffssicherheit in the German Government, and as an just a few miles away from the beautiful Yorkshire exercise in legal adjudication, it fails some of the most coast, and my granddad Walter Naulls was a fisherman basic tests. It gives the other side of an argument, but over in Hull. I am sure if Walter were alive today, he the German Government enforcement authorities have would be cheering on and welcoming this Bill and the looked only at the case put to them by the owners and opportunity to take back control again of our waters. operators of Pesorsa Dos, and they made no effort to In Yorkshire, whether in Whitby, Morley and Outwood hear the case from the Alison Kay. As far as they are or the dales, we all know the importance of fisheries to concerned, the matter is closed. The Minister said that our economy. Our seafood sector is worth £1.4 billion the Department had been in correspondence with the per year and employs 12,000 people. British ships land German Government, but the letter I have is from 1 around 400,000 tonnes of fish in UK waters, while EU July. If the Minister would be prepared to, I invite her to states’ vessels annually land almost double that in our publish the correspondence between our Government waters. Thanks to Brexit, we will have access to and be and the German Government, because I think that a bit in full control of our waters on our own terms, able to of transparency and daylight is needed. regulate access by third countries. Our fishing communities These vessels are commercial operations. It goes without will not be left behind and we will grow thanks to this saying there is a lot of money involved, and I am pretty legislation. sure that the answer to the question, “How is this This is an extremely ambitious deal, which offers only allowed to happen?” is a simple one: the skipper of the a glimpse of what we were able to do when leaving the Pesorsa Dos did what he did because he knew that he EU. As a strong advocate for animal rights, I would like could and that he could get off with it. When he tried to commend my hon. Friend the Minister and her the same thing—or something similar; I do not know predecessors for the strong environmental approach exactly what the case was—in Irish waters, they detained that they have taken to this Bill. Adding references to the vessel, took it into court, and it was tied up. That is the national benefit objective, along with the powers to what really concentrates the mind, because if the ship is make further provision on aquatic and animal health tied up in the harbour it is not out on the sea earning and the Government’s commitment to high standards, money for its owners. That is the sort of power and are extremely encouraging changes. The Bill will not control that we need to have and to exercise on behalf only protect our fishermen, their families and the of our fishermen and our fleet in our exclusive economic communities that rely on them but protect our marine zone. fauna, creating a strong and legally binding framework That is why I hope the Minister will have something that can leave the environment in a better state than we more positive to say when she comes to reply to this inherited, thanks to the quota levels set for fishing. debate. We know that this is a problem. It has been a The objectives set out by the Bill for the fisheries problem for a long time, it will continue to be a problem policy authorities, particularly on sustainability, the and it will get worse. Eventually, a Government Minister ecosystem, the bycatch and the scientific evidence, are a will stand at that Dispatch Box to table a clause of the sign that leaving the EU does not mean compromising, sort that I have tabled tonight, but he or she will be but rather enhancing, our environmental and animal doing that because there has been loss of life or serious welfare standards. Taking back control of our waters loss of property, because the things that we know can means maintaining the health of our seas, and the Bill happen will have happened. Let us not wait until that offers a unique opportunity to be world leaders on point. We know what the problem is. Let us act on it sustainability, which is vital for our oceans and for and let us sort it now. future generations. I was pleased to read this positive feedback from the National Federation of Fishermen’s Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con): If I Organisations: may take a few moments, Madam Deputy Speaker, I “The Bill is an important and necessary step towards managing have just received a text message alerting me to the news our fisheries in ways that can bring real advantages to our coastal that a good friend of mine, a guitarist and former band communities.” 285 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 286

The Bill not only enables us to take back control of position and to look at the amendments from the our waters as a sovereign nation but gives control back Labour Front Bench. As was said earlier,the environmental to the fishing communities, with a strong focus on and economic issues in fishing sit together. There is a devolution. Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh boats long-term interest in preserving our valuable and very will be licensed by Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh vulnerable coastal waters, and it is time for the Government Ministers. The Bill gives more powers to the devolved to listen, consider the evidence and think again. I urge Governments, who will be responsible for the positive Ministers to take a reasonable approach to this issue. trickle-down effect on coastal communities. I believe that, outside the EU, the Government are paving the Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): I will keep my way forward for others to follow. With its focus on remarks short. I am getting quite used to having debates communities, no compromises on animal welfare and on fishing and fisheries policy—we seem to discuss it the protection of our economy and, importantly, our here every week or every couple of weeks at the moment, sovereignty, the Bill is a clear indication of what taking and long may that continue. This Bill is in a much better back control really means. place than it was when it entered the House, and I support all the Government’s amendments. Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to be able to speak in this important debate. I would like to 7.45 pm offer my condolences to the hon. Member for Morley I would like to focus my remarks on three specific and Outwood (Andrea Jenkyns) on her loss. I would areas, to which I hope the Minister can respond. The like to speak in support of the amendments in the name first is the fisheries management plans. There is a lot of of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton discussion about what they might look like, who will and Devonport (Luke Pollard) and the shadow Front implement them, what powers they will have and, more Bench, and I want to focus my remarks on the opportunity importantly, whether they will have flexibility to diverge for supporting coastal communities and the importance in different parts of the country where we have different of protecting the vulnerable marine environment. fish species and to adjust to them. I ask the Minister to consider that. Our coastal communities have been neglected for far too long. Austerity and long-standing regional inequality The Government are collecting evidence on remote have hit these communities hard. Last year, residents in electronic monitoring, which they are considering. Will coastal areas, shockingly, earned £1,600 less than people they also look at the possibility of having a slick fisheries inland. The Labour amendment recognises these issues app that logs catches as they are caught, to support and calls on the Government to support those communities. sustainable fishing and promote quick turnaround, so As my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East that our restaurants and pubs can benefit from having (Stephanie Peacock) said earlier, landing more fish in food directly out of the sea and on the plate that very UK ports will generate significant new jobs inland. One evening? million pounds of fish landed in UK ports can create Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): Before 10 o’clock. up to 76 new jobs, which is a significant gain in many areas. Surely, at this time when the Government are Scott Mann: Indeed. saying that they want to “build back better”, this I welcome the package of three consultations launched amendment is worth further consideration. I hope that by DEFRA today. The first is on strengthening the the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food economic link for English licensed fishing vessels, to and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Banbury (Victoria help ensure economic benefits for many of our coastal Prentis) will consider this approach and take some time communities, including plans for an increased landing to mull it over. It is important that the Government requirement of up to 70%. That is very welcome news for listen to the needs of all our communities, including many people in North Cornwall. The second consultation those facing real economic challenges, both inland in is on proposals for how the new fishing opportunities seats such as mine and in coastal areas. that the UK secures in negotiations will be split between I would like to turn to the serious economic and Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England in a environmental issues that have been raised in today’s way that is fairer and much more profitable for fishing debate. It is important to consider the sheer scale of communities across our four nations.Finally,I congratulate some of the boats that we have heard about. These the Department on its proposals for how England’s supertrawlers are more than 100 metres in length and share of those new opportunities will be distributed they pull huge nets that can stretch out over a mile across across communities. I hope that we will see greater the sea. These boats have been found to be fishing in benefits for many of our coastal communities and our vulnerable protected areas with fragile marine ecosystems hard-working fishermen and fisherwomen. containing rare flora and fauna. I want to pay tribute to Concerns have been raised over the past few weeks the work that has been carried out by Greenpeace to that the scallop wars we saw a couple of years back in uncover the full scale of this issue. These boats have the English channel seem to be resurfacing, with many been seen to present a severe risk, and it is now time for of our boats being targeted by the French. There is us to consider its full impact. In the first six months of concern in the fishing community in Cornwall that, as 2020, supertrawlers spent more than 5,500 hours fishing we get to the crunch point in negotiations, much of in protected areas. This is a significant issue, and I hope their gear might be towed off and dragged due to the that the Minister will consider it fully. realisation that, if we do not reach a deal, there might Given this evidence, and given the Conservatives’ be challenges for some continental fishermen. own manifesto commitments in this area, it is now time Finally—it would not be a fisheries debate if I did not for further consideration of these environmental risks, mention it—I want to talk about recreational angling. I and I urge Ministers to take some time to rethink their know that I probably bore the Minister when I talk 287 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 288

[Scott Mann] area. In the main, these are within natural fluctuations, but there continues to be debate among fisheries scientists about this, and I promise that I will not talk specifically and fishermen around some of the stark figures. about bluefin tuna, although the conversation we had Northern Ireland’sfishermen have worked with members with the shadow Secretary of State on that recently was of the Greener UK alliance to develop and agree proposals very productive; I am hopeful that we might reach a for marine protected areas in the Irish sea. It is no secret point where we have a catch-and-release bluefin tuna that these measures and other similar plans within fishery around the coast of the country. I am grateful Northern Ireland’s territorial waters are causing economic for the work that DEFRA is doing with the Angling harm to local fishermen. Nevertheless, what this shows Trust on developing a vision statement for recreational me is that legislation at a national and a devolved level angling in the UK. The Minister will know that I have does work to achieve our marine sustainability goals. I an ambition to create a world-class fishery and wide wish to hear from the Minister about what legislative recreational opportunity for fishing off the north Cornwall route she intends to use to devolve responsibility to the coast. I look forward to working with her on the vision authorities in Northern Ireland for the designation and statement. Can she confirm that the statement will management of marine protected areas throughout our include policies that further support the interests of the maritime zone, as is the case with Scotland and Wales. UK recreational sector? Amendment 42 offers more power to Northern Ireland, It is a pleasure to be in the House on this historic and we welcome that, but we support more devolution night. I have heard on many doorsteps in North Cornwall of these powers to Northern Ireland, similar to that in that we need to repatriate our territorial fishing waters, Scotland and Wales. which were slayed on the altar as we entered the European The Public Bill Committee reviewing this Bill did not Union. It is a pleasure to be here this evening to give a have any representative from Northern Ireland. The green light to the great opportunities that are coming to written evidence submitted by the Northern Ireland coastal communities. I ask the Government to continue industry, specifically by Alan McCulla from the Anglo- to be robust in the negotiations, and they will continue North Irish Fish Producers Organisation, referred to to have my full support. the marine protected area process, as well as the discrimination faced by all UK fishermen in the Irish Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): Yesterday, in sea, especially those from Northern Ireland because of the debate on the Agriculture Bill, Members heralded a the application of the Hague preference. We presume new dawn for UK farmers. Likewise, today, with this that, come 1 January 2021, this discrimination will end Bill, we see a new dawn for our fishing industry, breaking when the rightful share of annual total allowable catches free from the over-regulation of Brussels. is repatriated to the UK. That will then be shared among In Northern Ireland, we have a resilient and innovative UK fishermen. fleet. They see Brexit as an opportunity. Therefore, as I want to make it very clear here that, within the UK, we chart this new course, it is incumbent on our Northern Ireland fishermen expect nothing more than Government to ensure that the approach taken is not their share of the UK’s old and new fishing opportunities simply a mirror image of EU regulation. This Bill indicates across all waters and quota species, based on the that that will not be the case, which is welcome. methodology used today.Based on established international Like most MPs here today, I read the briefing from law,zonal attachment is the principle that this Government Greener UK, which highlighted the fact that 58% to have used to claim an increased share of the available 68% of fish stocks in UK waters are now at sustainable catches. Within the UK, the established principle of levels. That signals an improving trend and is good news. fixed quota allocations should be used to apportion The sustainability principle is already at the core of our any new quota. It should then be left to the devolved fisheries policy. There is no need to give it precedence Administrations to decide how to allocate that quota. over other pillars of UK fisheries policy. It is time to seize the opportunities that arise from our The top-down command and control approach of escape from the common fisheries policy and Government the common fisheries policy has failed. The UK must must ensure that that happens. resist the temptation to begin this new era by prescribing draconian solutions across the board, as represented Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): I congratulate the hon. by remote electronic monitoring. On 29 September, the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) on an excellent Fisheries Minister in Northern Ireland, Edwin Poots speech. She spoke on behalf of not just her constituency MLA, told the Assembly that but fishermen across Northern Ireland. She put her “it is important that we have that devolved flexibility to choose case and their case across very well in the House tonight. from the range of management tools and measures, and pick I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for North those that are best suited to our fleet.” Cornwall (Scott Mann) said. It is a pleasure and a I agree with our devolved Minister because I do not support privilege to be in the Chamber tonight, as we debate the amendment that would see REM prescribed. Rather, such an important piece of legislation for our own REM should be something to be considered with the constituencies, the communities we represent, the whole fishing community, rather than imposed upon them. of Scotland and the United Kingdom. They are looking Our fishermen in Northern Ireland are custodians of to this Parliament to finally take back control over our the sea. The principle of sustainability is written into fishing industry. It has for too long been dominated by their DNA. I hope the EFRA Minister will acknowledge decisions in Brussels, rather than here in our Parliament that, in recent years, the total allowable catch in ICES in the United Kingdom. Area VIIa has been managed according to the principles This is very much a framework Bill. It is supported by of maximum sustainable yield. The ICES advice for the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and it allows us to 2021 indicates more challenges and opportunities in the do far more back here in the House of Commons or in 289 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 290 the devolved Administrations. This legislation and the Douglas Ross: When 122 votes separate the difference proposals put forward by this UK Conservative between tens of thousands of votes in the Moray Government respect devolution. It looks for and enhances constituency, I think it is fairly legitimate to say that the sustainability in our seas, but also the sustainability almost 50% of the people in Moray voted for Brexit. I in our fishing communities. For so long—decades—fishing cannot split an individual voter in half, or in quarters or communities in Moray such as Cullen, Findochty, Buckie segments, so when 122 votes was the difference out of and Burghead have suffered from a reduction in fishing tens of thousands, I think it is fair to say that almost right across the country through the straitjacket of the one in two people in Moray voted for Brexit. common fisheries policy. It has done so much harm to our industries, which were crucial to towns and villages 8 pm right across the country. Many of those areas have been decimated, but now we can start to build back again: Mr Carmichael: I hope that the hon. Gentleman feels build back our fishing industry, our fleet, our crews and better for having got some of that off his chest. May I our catches,and what they mean to individual communities, invite him, though, to return to the paths of positivity? what they meant decades ago, and what we can do to He says that he wants to follow the wishes of fishing revitalise those areas when this industry gets back up communities.Look at my new clause 11, which is supported and running because of the legislation that this UK by fishermen, doubtless in his own constituency as well. Government and this Parliament are looking at, debating There is a real need to act on this. Will he join me in and taking through now. urging his own Front Bench to take this seriously, and come forward with serious proposals on it? Positive as I am about the Bill, I have to pause for a moment and stop that positivity to discuss the contribution Douglas Ross: I was not in the Chamber when the from the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith Minister made her opening remarks. I think she may (Deidre Brock). [Interruption.] She laughs about her have thought that it was a probing amendment, but I contribution. I wish I could laugh at it. I really wish I am sure that she listened to the points made. The right could find it funny. I watched part of her speech on the hon. Gentleman has now suggested that he will at least screens outwith the Chamber and, when I was able to press either new clause 11 or 12 to a vote, and I am sure come in, I listened to it further. Watching it on television that she will respond to his points. I also listened closely I thought it was bad enough, and then I looked in. to the heartfelt speech by my hon. Friend the Member Sometimes we say things in the Chamber and we reflect, for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray) on not only her because we are not reading a pre-prepared, scripted own experience of a tragic family bereavement but the speech, that maybe we could have said something different representations that she has heard from fishing communities and put it a better way. I watched the end of the hon. in her long career advocating on their behalf. I look Lady’s speech and she was reading it out. I thought, forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, but I “What kind of individual sits at a computer and types accept the constructive way in which the right hon. such a bitter, twisted and misleading statement, reviews Gentleman has put his case. it”—I presume she writes it herself, but I cannot guarantee that—“and stands up in the Chamber of the House of Since the right hon. Gentleman has intervened, I can Commons and reads out such a poorly crafted argument now mention Shetland. An organisation in Shetland has that does not represent what Scotland is looking for today published the opportunities for the United Kingdom from this Bill and does not represent what fishing to race up the global rankings in terms of what we can communities right around the country are looking for do as a country regarding our share of catch from UK from this Bill?” waters. At the moment, about 70% of the fish caught and landed in our waters is caught by foreign vessels. If I do not believe the hon. Lady’s speech represents the we compare that with Norway, 84% of the fish and Scottish National party position on this. If you listen to shellfish caught in its waters are caught by Norwegian her, there is nothing good in the Bill being brought vessels. I think it is 95% in Iceland. forward by this Government, but her own party in the That is the opportunity that is available to Scotland Scottish Parliament has given a legislative consent motion and the United Kingdom, and that is why many of us in for it. So just once I would ask her to look beyond her this Chamber are excited about the opportunities for blinkered vision of separatism, assuming everything this country, our fishermen and our fishing communities. done in this UK Parliament is bad, and consider for a That is why I had to briefly take a moment to call out moment that the 1 million people in Scotland who backed the, yet again, negativity and pointless point scoring from Brexit and the almost 50% of voters in my Moray the Scottish National party on this issue. constituency who backed Brexit, might actually look at this as an opportunity—an opportunity for this UK Deidre Brock Government to take control back from the European rose— Union over fishing and devolve further to our devolved Administrations right across the country. She would do Douglas Ross: I will gladly give way to the hon. Lady, herself, her party and Scottish politics in general a and hope that she has listened to my constructive criticism, service if she looked at that and that argument from a will look at this afresh and suddenly decide that the more positive angle just once—to look at the positivity, SNP Members are not here just to be bitter and twisted, rather than always the negativity. and for petty point scoring; they are here to work for Scotland’s fishermen.

Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): I think I heard the hon. Deidre Brock: There are always conditions attached Gentleman correctly when he said that there was almost to interventions when the hon. Gentleman allows them— 50% support for Brexit in his constituency, so he lost the very male, Madam Deputy Speaker. He clearly has Brexit argument in his constituency. Is that right? ambitions to one day lead in the Scottish Parliament 291 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 292

[Deidre Brock] We have left the European Union. When we leave the transition period at the end of this year, we come out of and become the First Minister of Scotland. He always the straitjacket of the common fisheries policy—the references his constituency and the fact that a large hated CFP that has done so much to damage our percentage of his constituents voted for Brexit, but industry over the past 40 years. Our fishing communities when will he accept that Scotland voted 62% to remain, have decided to leave the European Union and have and rejected Brexit? If he has ambitions to be the First voted to come out of the common fisheries policy. Why Minister, how will he reflect that when he is making his would the Scottish nationalists ever say that, having pitch to voters? taken the decision to leave, we should go back into a policy that has done so much damage to our communities Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. and to our industry? I relish the bright future that is We will be rather careful here. This is a narrow Bill, ahead of us now with this Bill and look forward to specifically about— developing it further with communities in Moray, right across Scotland, and across the UK. This is a positive time Deidre Brock: On a point of order, Madam Deputy to be in the fishing industry. This is a positive Bill from Speaker. I have just had to endure a personal attack from the UK Government—one that will deliver right across the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross). I was the country and one that I am pleased to support. making the point that if he wants to make those sorts of attacks, he has to be prepared to take it. Dave Doogan: I am very happy to follow the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross). Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): That is not a point of order for the Chair. I assume that every I am extremely fortunate to represent Angus, the Member can take it when they are having an argument. garden of Scotland. Our bounty extends well beyond Let me just take a step back to the hon. Lady’sintervention. our exceptional farmland, over our cliffs, and into our It was an interesting political point, but I want to ensure abundant seas—the North sea. After all, we have in that in answering it the hon. Gentleman does so in terms Arbroath the home of the Arbroath smokie—a taste of the Bill that is before us tonight. sensation that I know for a fact the Minister regularly enjoys. Not only that, but in Ferryden and Arbroath Douglas Ross: Of course I will, Madam Deputy Speaker, harbours we have a thriving inshore fleet fishing creel but I will make a couple of points, if I may. The hon. for crab and lobsters primarily for the EU market. This Lady said that my allowing her to intervene, or her is where my concern lies. The shellfish trade in Angus is taking an intervention from me, always comes with an outstanding success story supporting many jobs and conditions. I hope that she goes back and looks at the underpinning the thriving buzz in Arbroath and Ferryden previous debate we had in this Chamber about fishing, harbours. These boats have little to gain from Brexit in because I was sat about a couple of metres along from their fishing operations,but much to lose if the Government where I am now, and on 12 occasions I tried to intervene will not or cannot secure a deal for unfettered and tariff- on her but she would not let me in once. So I have to say free access to their EU markets. that my generosity is far more generous than hers. I remind Ministers that livelihoods and jobs depend The hon. Lady seeks to criticise me for mentioning on these last-minute negotiations, and fishing businesses, Moray. I am from Moray. I am proud of my roots. I was like any other, need clarity over future trading conditions. born and bred in my constituency, which I now have the Even with a deal, fishermen from Angus exporting into honour to represent in the House of Commons, so I will the EU will be subject to a regime from 1 January that never shy away from mentioning Moray and what a threatens cost and delay for their businesses. These great place it is—Moray with its great coastal communities burdens include the requirements for an export health and great coastline, a little unlike Edinburgh North and certificate, a validated catch certificate sent to the importer Leith, which has neither. hours before the lorry arrives, a storage document if the catch was stored, and a processing statement if the I will now get back to the point of the debate. product has been treated. They must import their product through an EU border control post and the importer Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. must be notified in advance of the arrival. Notification I just want to check, in order to keep within my rules, periods vary so they will need to check with the border that Moray does have fishing. control post in question to find out how much notice they can give. Douglas Ross: The coastal communities on the coastline of Moray provide great opportunities for fishing in my This is a far cry from the seamless process undertaken constituency and, indeed, right around Scotland and currently by crews and hauliers supplying markets in the United Kingdom. In case I have potentially misled the EU today. I seek the Minister’s assurance that due the House, I think there is some coastline in the hon. consideration will be given to those lorries loaded up Lady’s constituency, so before the tweet goes out, I have with live catch from multiple vessels in respect of the corrected the record and I apologise for that. We all effect of this new bureaucracy on my constituents in come to this House to represent our constituents and Angus. the areas for which we are elected in order put forward There exists a seemingly simpler process for UK their views. I think it is right that the representative for vessels landing directly into UK ports. They must land Moray is able to outline how important this Bill is, and intoaNorthEastAtlanticFisheriesCommission-designated how important it is that the Lords amendments, which port with a prior notification form, a catch certificate could cause some difficulties and troubles for the Bill, and a pre-landing declaration. That is onerous, but not are not taken forward, because they would be wrong for insurmountable. Direct landings into the EU should be the industry both in Moray and right across Scotland. seen as a sub-optimal opportunity. It seems clear that 293 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 294 we need to secure as much value add in the commodification Home landings have their limits, such as with the of marine product in Scotland, and the rest of the UK pelagic catch, which can be so vast and so rapid as to of course, as possible, thereby exporting a higher value overwhelm the local capacity to process, and there can product to market rather than exporting the unprocessed be no argument with that reality. However, the principle product to have the value added abroad. National of shared benefit remains intact if domestic capacity is landings will deliver that, and to that extent I have some by default exhausted first. I am confident that my sympathy with amendment 1 tabled by the shadow colleagues in the Scottish Government are sighted on Minister, the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie the national landings priority. The best interests of our Peacock). However,as she will be aware, it is England-only Scottish fleet in coastal communities will be served so I will be unable to support it. I encourage the by that devolved Administration, but we should in all Minister, if not in this iteration of the Bill then in future four nations work in support of this ambition as policy, to consider the ambition of a national landing maritime neighbours, where we remain subject to the requirement. I know that that is an important element same jurisdiction. that all devolved Administrations will be taking forward. We heard the hon. Member for Moray speak at 8.15 pm length about the importance of coastal communities In general, there are substantial opportunities for and reversing the attrition that was wrought on them in fishing in the new reality that our fleets face and for our recent decades. This is an element that we may seek to coastal communities, and I look forward to witnessing exploit to achieve that. Ridding our fishing fleets of the that renewal, although in closing I remind Ministers of thoroughly discredited CFP will of course have an my concerns over inshore fisheries in Angus and across upside for crews and skippers, but we need to ensure these isles. I will be supporting the SNP’s new clause 3. that we are more ambitious than that. We need to maximise and disaggregate the dividend as far and as Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. wide onshore as possible. To do so will benefit precisely Before I call the next speaker, may I explain something, those coastal communities that we have heard discussed because there seems to be some confusion, perhaps earlier this evening, with consequential benefits to local among new Members who do not know how normal services, driving greater investment through higher Chamber procedure works? If I impose a time limit, populations in rural schools, and increased use of transport this debate will end at 10 o’clock and there will be and connectivity. several votes at 10 o’clock and Third Reading after that. A new future based on zonal attachment holds much Anyone can work out how late that will be. If I do not promise for our fleets and for the gross value of the impose a time limit but appeal to Members, for the sake industry going forward. This will do much to correct of all their colleagues, to speak for about three to four the basic fairness of access to marine harvest. We should minutes, and thereby prove that brevity is the soul of feel duty bound to attach any new prosperity widely to wit, the debate will finish earlier, and those who are coastal communities and exploit every opportunity to taking part will have the eternal gratitude of those who secure marketing, processing, fuel supplies, services, are waiting to vote. installation, plant sales and haulage jobs on these shores Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I and in our coastal communities rather than elsewhere. will try to speak clearly with my new self-imposed time This is not protectionism, it is pragmatism. limit. It is a pleasure to follow right hon. and hon. I understand very well the need to ensure the most Members, particularly the hon. Member for Angus (Dave profitable and expedient routes to market for crews, but Doogan), and here we are going straight back down the let us be clear that the damage that Brexit will do to our line to Cornwall, which just shows what an important broader economy and economic prosperity outside fishing issue this is for the whole United Kingdom. will be severe and in so far as fishing will benefit from Despite being the great-great-granddaughter of a Brexit, the industry should maintain an obligation to Scarborough fisherman, I had no idea as a young girl support the onshore economy as much as possible in that I would grow up to become a Cornish fishwife, but management, processing and the wider supply chain. here I am. Actually, I am very proud to be so. It is a privilege to be married to a fisherman, because it gives a Douglas Ross: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman great understanding of what a scary but wholesome living for giving way. He just said that fishing would benefit it is. It is absolutely necessary for the health of our nation. from Brexit—those are the words that came out of his I mentioned in my maiden speech some time ago how mouth, and I absolutely agree with that. Can he explain precarious a living it is, especially when one is on the how fishing would benefit from the SNP policy, which is end of the phone and the weather turns and they cannot to go straight back into the European Union and the get back, so I will not go into that again. common fisheries policy? One thing I have to say is that the fishing industry Dave Doogan: I am happy that the hon. Member for does not speak with one voice, and that is important to Moray is so quick to tell me what SNP policy is. remember. To stand up for the fishing industry means Perhaps he will yield to my knowledge of such matters. giving our fishermen their voices back, and that is what I think I am probably on fairly solid ground as an SNP this Bill absolutely does. It takes a first important politician in saying what our policy is. I will be taking step, and that is what we have to remember about this no lectures from a Conservative politician on how to framework Bill. access the EU in the interests of fishing. We have seen I will speak briefly to the amendments. I do not think how badly it was done by the Conservatives in the early that the Bill is the right place for them, but I understand 1970s. We will not be making any similar mistakes with why they have been tabled. I believe they are well Scotland’s reaccession to the EU after independence, intentioned, and I know that Ministers are listening. but I do not want to fall foul of Madam Deputy Speaker. In terms of amendment 1, I welcome the Government’s 295 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 296

[Cherilyn Mackrory] come off and how it was caught. The fisherman who is fishing hook and line should get a better price than the consultation, and I urge anybody involved to make their one who is using the nets. The fisherman will then representations known before the closing date, which suddenly become responsible for his catch, in the same I believe is 10 November. way as farmers are responsible for the high standards of I would like to see more support from Ministers for their animals. That is important and it means that the direct-from-the-boat sales. When people go to London consumer starts to become king—I hope that Ministers and eat a nice plate-sized piece of fish in a restaurant, are listening. the price can be eye-watering. Let me tell the House that We have a great opportunity for a culture change in at the other end of the scale, when the fisherman gets this country about what we eat and why we eat it—that his price from market, that can also be eye-watering, was mentioned earlier. The new Cornish residents, our but for a different reason. Somewhere along the way, TV chefs, who have moved down to the south-west have somebody is making a lot of money out of it, but it is an important role to play in this. If we suddenly start not the fishermen, and we need to put that right. I know eating wrasse, which they do in Japan, in sushi, or there are voices in the Treasury who are sympathetic to whatever else it might be, we can start making this a that, and I make a plea to urge those conversations good thing to eat and consumers will follow. forward. A business in Falmouth that has just opened I will conclude because I do not want to take up too has as one of its unique selling points the fact that it much time. This Bill is a great first step, from which we wants fish that has never touched land. That sort of have learned lessons from the CFP. We are finally business should be encouraged, particularly in Cornwall. starting to release our fishermen from the shackles of Amendment 2 is about sustainability. One of the the CFP, which is vital. What we can achieve for the main reasons I came to this House was for the sustainability industry is endless because we are now an independent of our oceans and sustainability on land, but when we coastal state. I am reassured that future consultations talk about sustainability in the fishing industry, we will benefit our industry and I look forward to plans that cannot talk just about the oceans; we have to talk about come forward next year. the coastal communities as well. Take bass, for example. My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): I will speak to new Mann) and I have spoken at length about bass and clauses 1 to 7, which we tabled to try to improve this recreational angling versus the commercial fishermen, legislation. I spent 15 years in the European Parliament, and I want to try to bridge the gap tonight if I can. alongside the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton I absolutely get the reason why we need to have a (Neil Parish), working largely on fisheries reform, among sustainable bass fishery.The angling economy in Cornwall lots of other issues. It is safe to say that the CFP is not is growing and is worth a lot of money, but if that bass the Scottish National party’s favourite policy and a fishery is suddenly taken away from an under-10 metre number of things need to be done to improve it. It is boat, that fisherman cannot feed his family. We cannot the primary reason why Norway and Iceland are not just expect these fishermen one day suddenly to have to EU members, although they are proudly part of the EU go out to fish for something else—it does not happen single market, for reasons also largely to do with fisheries like that. I am not prepared to make people suddenly do and fisheries products. that, so we have to have a long consultation with the industry, the fishermen and the conservationists before If I learned anything in my time in Brussels, it was we come up with a plan. That is why this amendment is particularly about the marine ecosystem: everything is misplaced. We have to go with the framework and see connected to everything else, and if one does not look where we go from that. at the whole picture, one makes poor conclusions. This Bill really is only part of the picture and it leaves the big Amendment 3 deals with supertrawlers. Again, I questions—the existential questions for all our fishing understand why it has been proposed, but I am reassured communities and the people employed in fisheries— by Ministers who say that we now are in control of unanswered. Passing this Bill tonight, as I suspect those licences, and pressure will be on our Front Benchers Conservative Members will, is the easy bit; making to make the right decisions there. I will not go on for too good on the fine promises we have heard this evening long, I promise, but let me deal with a couple more will be an awful lot harder. Four years after the vote to things that I want to see, if we can do them. leave the European Union and a year after we left the The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland European Union—a fact that I regret deeply—we have (Mr Carmichael) is no longer in his place, but I have yet to see the much vaunted advantages of that Brexit. sympathy with him on the enforcement argument, and It is a poor state of affairs that we are this stage in this not just on the outrageous incidents to which he refers. stage of the proceedings. We see daily off the Lizard Point that French fishermen are within our waters and they should not be there. The fishing industry is complex. It is not just about Even in the spawning grounds in the estuaries we need boats going to sea and catching fish. In Scotland, it is to make sure that anglers are not going up and taking even more complex. We have a structurally different undersized fish. There should be enforcement from one set-up to our industry in Scotland from that UK-wide. scale down to the last, and we need to make sure we are As we have heard throughout the debate, for every one properly prepared to have enforcement here. job at sea, there are—depending on how one counts I am a big advocate of labelling—everyone in Devon them—seven to 10 jobs on shore. knows how I feel about that—and it is vital that we get Stirling—by way of a counterintuitive point, as it is a some clear labelling on our fish. The technology is there generally landlocked constituency but for the tidal Forth—is now to put the boat name on anywhere that that fish one of the biggest UK producers of farmed prawns. ends up, be it in an expensive fancy restaurant or in one The aquaculture department at Stirling University is of our supermarkets; we can see what boat that fish has engaged in world-leading, planet-saving research that is 297 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 298 crucial to our economy. Tens of thousands of people This is a finely tuned balance between the economic are employed in aquaculture: in the prawn sector, the values and the sustainable values. The Opposition need salmon sector and the inshore fishery, catching scallops to have a little bit of faith in the fishermen who fish our and langoustines, and in the wider processing sector. waters, who are determined to look after that stock, and All those thousands of jobs and all that GDP are to see their children and grandchildren go into the sector. utterly dependent on access, by which I mean tariff-free That really matters. and frictionless access to the EU single market. That A point that has been touched on by a number of really does bring us to the nub of our scepticism about people is how we develop and encourage our own “buy this Bill, which, as we have heard, the Scottish Government local” campaign. and Parliament have consented to because it is necessary, I spoke during my maiden speech about the idea that given that we have left the European Union. There is a the best of British—that British local seafood—should need for a new legislative framework; we just do not be on every menu across the country. That remains the think that this Bill answers the big questions. case and we have a great opportunity to be able to create The Norwegians joke that there is nothing in such a that campaign. I hope the Government will look carefully hurry as a dead fish on the back of a lorry. There are at how we can do that with cross-party support. going to be lots of dead fish on the back of lorries Lastly, I am going to sea next year for three days to wondering where they are going if we do not get a deal see what goes on on a trawler vessel. I know that when that ensures tariff-free and frictionless access. The vast they look at the Bill and hear us talking about it, they chunk of fisheries’ economic activity is in grave danger are proud of what the Government are trying to achieve. in these ongoing talks, and this Bill answers none of their They are proud of the fact that it takes back control of concerns and takes account of none of their interests. our coastal waters, and they are proud of the fact that This Bill is a framework for catching fish, and it is we will no longer be part of the common fisheries meaningless unless there is a deal for market access for policy. I look forward to being able to report what it is all the other fish and fisheries products. The big questions like at sea and how the Brixham trawler fishermen operate are unanswered, so we have tried to make the legislation —and I end my speech there. better with new clause 3 on the sea fish authority. We believe that more transparency in that structure would 8.30 pm very much help the evolution of the organisation in the new challenges ahead. I urge Members to support the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am no stranger new clause, much though we have heard of the Minister’s to this issue—I live some 10 miles from the last working scepticism this evening. fishing village in the Province, Portavogie. I have watched this village go from hundreds of boats—and the livelihoods I am struck by the tone of this debate, as I was struck provided on the boats—and two fish processing factories by the tone of the debate back in December, when I to the loss of both factories and to having some 60 boats made my maiden speech, on the withdrawal agreement—the in the harbour. Women who could shell prawns quicker withdrawal agreement that so many Members on the than we could pick up a hand to lift one were out of Government Benches are now lining up to trash and the work and unable to use their skills in a different way. I Government are looking to resile from in a “limited and have to say, the best prawns in the whole of the United specific way”, barely nine months later. The promises Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are that have been made this evening are cheques that will from Portavogie—I do not care what anybody says. not be cashed in the real world. When Government They are sold the world over, including across Europe, Members fail to deliver on their grand rhetoric—or, and everybody says that Portavogie prawns have a special indeed, sincere hopes, genuinely held—they will have taste. I can only agree and I am very pleased to put that nobody to blame but themselves. on record. We are pleased that at long last we are leaving the EU Anthony Mangnall: It is always a pleasure to be asked and the shackles that tied down the fishing boats in my to speak briefly; brevity is one of my strengths, I am sure. harbour in Portavogie and across Northern Ireland and I have four points to make, and I feel that this may the whole of the United Kingdom. They will be away be—for those who were here on Second Reading— and we will have the freedom of the seas, as we used to, something of a rehash of my previous speech, not least and our fleet will hopefully grow from 60 to the 120 that because I want to speak against two amendments tabled it once was. The red tape and the bureaucracy will be by the Labour party, notably amendment 1 on UK away as well, so is it not great news that the promise of landings.The Opposition talk about the need for specifying 1 January next year will see the fulfilment of the liberty percentages for what our fishermen should be required and freedom of our fishing fleets across Northern Ireland? to land. Rather than restricting where our fishermen None of what has happened is because there is no can go and where they can land their catch, is not the desire for fish, or a lack of fish to land—this is all down answer to develop our ports to make them competitive to the EU’s deliberate policy of giving the EU a living with European ports, so that we can attract not only our while excluding our own. These policies made sons own fishermen, but fishermen from Europe to land decide it that was not worth the danger of the sea and their catch here? That is a more efficient way of building the stress of the paperwork to continue generations of and sustaining the processing plants across the United fishing, and it was heartbreaking to see. I am ever so Kingdom, and building the ports such Brixham in my thankful that this has to come to an end, and more than constituency. That is what we need to be doing—not that, we have an opportunity to feed into the laws that restricting where our fishermen go. will govern us. I am proud to stand here on behalf of My second point is on the sustainability principles my fishermen in Portavogie, as well as the fishermen of and amendment 2. The first page of the Bill talks about Ardglass and Kilkeel, whose MP is yet to come to this the principles of sustainability; it is sustainable at its core. House to represent them—that is a fact as well. 299 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 300

[Jim Shannon] forward to finally shaking off the shackles of Europe and embracing the best of British fishing across the I thank the Anglo-North Irish Fish Producers whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Organisation and Alan McCulla for all their work, as Ireland—better together, and that includes my comrades well as Harry Wick from the Northern Ireland Fish on these Benches. Producers’Organisation for all he has done.I also commend the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray); Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): It is always a pleasure we have had a friendship and relationship with her for a to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon); long time. I agree with him entirely that we are better together. I I am broadly supportive of the Bill and the Lords welcome this historic Bill, which will enable us to keep amendments. In particular, amendment 42 is of great our promise to the British people and become an interest to me, as I said to the Minister. We have been independent coastal state after nearly 40 years of being pushing regarding the designation and management of part of the EU’s common fisheries policy. The benefits marine-protected areas in the Northern Ireland zone of the Bill are multiple, as it will both support our being devolved to Northern Ireland for many years. The fishermen in regaining access to their waters and ensure interpretation that we have been given on amendment 42 that that is done sustainably, by protecting our marine is that it provides the Department of Agriculture, environment for generations to come. It will re-establish Environment and Rural Affairs with powers to make a balanced approach to fishing, as EU vessels caught orders relating to the management of fishing activities nearly eight times as much fish per year in UK waters in the Northern Ireland offshore region for conservation between 2012 and 2016 as UK vessels caught in other purposes. I believe that we are disadvantaged compared member states’ waters during that time. with Scotland and Wales. The Secretary of State retains What is more, with renewed powers to set catch the power to make designations in the Northern Ireland limits, we can finally live up to our objective of setting offshore region. Consideration was given to transferring higher environmental standards than the European Union. designation powers to DAERA, but it was not within Among those is our commitment to safeguarding the scope of the Bill. That is what I tried to raise in my marine protected areas from overfishing. To that effect, earlier intervention and I seek reassurance from the I wholeheartedly sympathise with the sentiment behind Minister in relation to that. amendment 3, which aims to ban trawlers of more than As one of my fish producers organisations said to me 100 metres in length from fishing in protected areas. regarding amendment 42, we need to seek assurances or Coastal communities such as mine in Redcar and Marske a commitment on the mechanism and the timeline for are increasingly concerned at the sight of those gigantic transfer of designation powers so that we might get fishing vessels on the horizon, hoovering up hundreds Government agreeable to that and ensure that the ball of tonnes of fish a day. According to Greenpeace, these keeps moving. This is too important, Minister, to be industrial fishing vessels spent nearly 3,000 hours last lost after the Bill passes. The Secretary of State and I year fishing in parts of UK waters that are supposed to have worked well over the years. I have the utmost be protected. respect for him and all he does. He is not here tonight, The Bill provides the Secretary of State with the and we know why, but the Minister is here and I am power to ensure that fishing quotas are not exceeded. It very pleased to see her in her place. I ask for a timeline goes further,saying that the UK and devolved Governments by which I can see the completion of not simply this Bill not only control who is licensed to fish in our waters but but the important intention behind it: to bring fishing that licence holders will face penalties for fishing in home for everyone in the United Kingdom of Great excess. For that reason, I believe amendment 3 to be Britain and Northern Ireland. unnecessary, and I will support the Government tonight. I am pleased that the environmental factor ranks However, I encourage Ministers to recognise the strength highly; I thank the Minister for that. That is the very of feeling in the House regarding super-trawlers and to thing that the fishing sector wants to see, and it is the use the new powers afforded to them to prevent these way forward. Fishermen want to see a pledge for the vessels from operating in UK waters. future, because their ability to feed their family and pay Sustainability is this Government’s priority, and we their bills goes hand in hand with the need to ensure can only achieve our objectives by working with every that fish are thriving. Rather than the red tape that Government across our four nations, so I welcome the sought to tie our fishermen while releasing other fishermen, flexibility introduced for devolved Administrations to we can and must work hand in hand to allow this have their own say on fishing. I stood on Redcar High industry to thrive, as it has the potential to do. Street in 2015 campaigning to leave the EU so that we I gave you my word, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I could take back control of our laws, our borders and will conclude. As I have said, this Bill is not the fisherman’s our waters. This Bill is a milestone on our way to dream. The fisherman’s dream is one with no more becoming an independent and sustainable coastal state, Europe. The fisherman’s dream is one where we can fish and I am proud to support it today. the seas around the United Kingdom of Great Britain free. The Portuguese, the Spanish, the Dutch and all John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am almost those other EU countries think that they can come in seduced by Opposition amendment 1. It is an admirable and do whatever they want—not anymore, because we idea that we should land more of our own fish in our are in charge, and we are going to do it our way. We will own ports, but I am probably not going to make it to be ever the compassionate brother and sister that we their Lobby, because they lack ambition—why only should be, and we will consider a system whereby they 65%? We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for can also fish the seas, but it will be under our rules and Moray (Douglas Ross) that the Norwegians and the our waters, and we will control that. We can look Icelandics, who have had control of their own fisheries 301 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 302 for much longer or never surrendered them, have much as negotiations were taking place in Brussels, to get an higher percentages than that. These are small, prosperous hour and a half to speak about fishing, so it is fantastic, countries that took their destiny in their own hands, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall and they have a much finer fishing industry than ours— (Scott Mann) said, to be able to talk about fishing a bit crippled as it has been for too many years by the common more often, and we absolutely should. fisheries policy. It is a tremendous achievement by the Minister and So full marks to the Opposition for wanting, for the Secretary of State to get this far, with all those who once, to go in the right direction, but let us have a bit have been involved, in delivering the UK’s first fishing more passion and ambition, because it is a disgrace policy for decades. This Bill enables Government, regions that, after all these years in the common fisheries policy, and the UK fishing fleet to work together for progressively the overwhelming majority of our fish is taken by managed, vibrant fisheries in a post-common fisheries others, and it is a disgrace that this great fishing nation policy landscape. I cannot believe I am an MP standing imports fish to feed ourselves. I want to see a much up and being able to say that—fantastic! I know, as an higher percentage than amendment 1 suggests, because MP who represents one of the UK’s key fishing ports, I think we need the food for ourselves or we would be that south-west fisheries are up for the challenge and very good at processing it and adding value to it. I do keen to get on with it. not just want fresh fish for our tables; I also want to see I want to speak briefly to the amendments of the us putting in those extra factories and processing plants official Opposition. I recognise that they have been in our coastal communities so that they can produce hoodwinked by the environmental campaign groups, excellent fish preparations or derivatives of fish for our believing the Bill has been stripped of its ability to own purposes and for wider export around the rest of deliver real sustainability for UK fishing, but this is not the world. This is crucial. the case. Frankly, I am tired of hearing the good efforts I am afraid that I am not seduced by amendment 2 of our fishermen and women constantly undermined by either. While I and the Government, and I think everyone the SNP and Labour Front Benchers. Their desire to in this House, think that sustainability of our fishery install a heavy burden of regulation and bureaucracy on will be most important, I do not think it is the only aim, fishermen, because of an unfounded belief that the or even the prime aim. It is a very important aim that industry is preoccupied with greater access to fish, would we want to use our fishery to feed ourselves and others, be a mistake, and the Government are right to reject the and to produce much better jobs, more paid employment pressure. and factory processing. It is very important, as others Newlyn fishermen have led the way in developing have said, that we look after the wider marine environment improvements in sustainability and environmental practices, —not just the fish stocks, but the environment in which including the cod-end, which has reduced fish bycatch the fish and others are swimming. by huge amounts and reduced massively the loss of fish I think we need to have multiple aims, and I think that that they were not able to land. Fishermen are not in the is what the Government are setting out. The Government business of taking whatever they can, sparing no thought are very much in favour of sustainability, so when we for the resources that future fishermen and women will wait—desperately worried—on these negotiations, I say, depend on or for the natural environment. The fishermen “Please, Government, do not give our fish away again!” I know support conservation priorities such as bycatch That mistake has been made too often—in the original reduction and managing stocks under climate change, negotiations to go into the European Economic Community as well as advocating for a system that will allow for the and in annual negotiations thereafter. Let us hope that flexibility and adaptation required to deliver on these our fish is not given away in those negotiations. If we goals. cannot fish enough of it in the short term, because we still do not have the boats and the capacity, let us leave it 8.45 pm in the sea and rebuild our stocks more quickly, while we The strong and diverse set of sustainability-focused get that extra capacity. I would like to hear and see more objectives in the Bill makes this a progressive framework from the Minister and the wider Government on how for our country’s rich mixed fisheries and for the we are going to support the acquisition of much more communities that depend on them. That framework capacity. takes me to my next point: the UK fishing fleet is part Should we not be helping fishermen and fisherwomen of the solution to achieving the full aspiration of the commission new boats from British yards, and have that Bill. Co-management is a route to this. I look forward combined shipbuilding capability and the fishing capability, to hearing greater detail from the Government regarding leading on to the production capability? Many of our their plan for co-management, but as I said on Second industries were badly damaged or demolished by our Reading, I cannot overstate the need to maintain a close presence in the European Union. This is a prime example relationship with our fishing industry. The prize here is of an industry that was crippled. The scope for much enthusiastically to include the industry in the management, greater prosperity for our coastal communities could be design and decision-making process, and trust in the added to by the right schemes to get more boats, and by knowledge it holds. the right schemes such as enterprise zones that allow us Cornwall’s fishermen want a Bill that leaves scope for to go right up the value chain and produce the best fish engaged and meaningful co-management of fisheries, dishes in the world. with genuine fishing voices at the heart of collaborative Derek Thomas: It is a pleasure to follow my right decision making. As the Bill stands, it is poised to hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood). deliver on this ambition. It is fantastic to be the fourth Cornish MP that has the I hope to get some clarity on the Government’s opportunity to speak in a fishing debate. When I first intention in relation to what is known as the economic got elected, we would have to wait until December, just link. It seems entirely sensible to say that what is caught 303 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 304 in UK waters is landed in UK ports. Most would see the viable career choice for our future generations. I had the attraction in that until they started to look at what pleasure of visiting Gary Thomas and Chris Pritchard, unintended consequence might arise. There are Cornish two Amlwch constituents who fish lobster, crab and boats sailing out of Newlyn that land their fish in whelks from their boat, the Boy James. They work France. Why? Because it is fuel efficient to do so, and tirelessly to provide fresh produce while also encouraging sometimes and often, their market is favourable. UK and inspiring the next generation of fishers. However, fishing is a complex industry and my advice to the we must ensure that there are sufficient fish stocks to shadow Minister and the shadow Secretary of State is provide income if we want to keep those communities that what sounds popular on Parliamentlive.tv and on alive; that is why I am grateful to see the end of the social media outlets might prove completely unsustainable common fisheries policy. and counterproductive for the very people and values In conclusion, when I look back on my time as they seek to represent. Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn, I want to know In conclusion, and not entirely unrelated to the economic that I helped Sion to grow and strengthen Holyhead link issue, when fish are caught and landed in UK ports, Shellfish, I want to know that Menai mussels have Newlyn must not miss out. While I do not believe reliable stock for decades to come, and I want to ensure vessels will ever be prevented from landing in Newlyn, it that those who come to our island will experience the would reassure local stakeholders if Newlyn could be joy of their first mackerel catch in the beautiful waters included on the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission of Trearddur Bay. designated ports list. That is something the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs can do, and Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the Minister here can do, irrespective of the Bill—perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia a necessary tidying-up of loose ends. Crosbie). Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): It is a pleasure In 2018, a community-led group came together to to follow my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Derek produce a long-term strategy for the fishing industry in Thomas). The common fisheries policy has been disastrous East Anglia. The REAF—that is, the Renaissance of for the environment, fishing communities and our future East Anglian Fisheries—report was launched in Parliament generations. Those responsible in the EU have stood by on 17 October last year. The report concludes that there and allowed chronic overfishing in British waters. That is an exciting future for the local industry, which has harms the biodiversity of our oceans and the economic declined dramatically in the past 40 years, but that there viability of our coastal communities. It is now time to is a great deal of work to do. right the wrongs, and the Bill is a crucial first step. My interest is to ensure that this Bill provides the Fishing is increasingly important to my island framework within which to deliver REAF.On the whole, constituency of Ynys Môn. Sea fishing forms a major part it does. The Bill is by no means perfect, though it is an of our tourism industry, with many chartered fishing improvement on its predecessor from the last Parliament. boats operating around the island, as well as bait shops It has been said by some that, at present, the Bill is a supplying those fishing off the rocks in places such as picture frame without a painting, and that there is a Aberffraw and Holyhead breakwater. need for Government to articulate a compelling vision During the lockdown, we also saw some islanders live for a revitalised fishing industry, both leading the world out their dreams of a career in Anglesey water. Sion in marine conservation and promoting the revitalisation Riley, a Royal Navy veteran, did not let a global pandemic of our coastal communities. halt his ambition of joining the fishing community. His It may well be that that is what lies behind the new company, Holyhead Shellfish, is a favourite with amendments put forward by the Opposition. I can local restaurants and wholesalers. I visited him last understand why the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton week, and he said to me, “Fishing is an important and Devonport (Luke Pollard) and his colleagues have industry in our small but mighty island, but in order to tabled them; I have some concerns of my own, which protect the waters for future generations, we need effective hopefully the Minister will address. However, on the management of fish stocks and investment in small whole, I do not think these amendments are necessary, businesses like my own. That is why I support the action and we need to get on with delivering this once-in-a-lifetime being taken to ensure future generations can make their opportunity to revitalise our fishing industry, which can livelihoods off the beautiful Anglesey coast.” bring so many benefits to coastal communities all around The charity Môn CF in Holyhead helped Sion access the UK. funds for his boat, the Pan Arctic. Alun Roberts from Amendment 2 seeks to make the sustainability objective Môn CF said, “Small business owners go out in all a prime fisheries objective. I can understand the rationale weathers to bring fresh catches to local markets, and a for this amendment, but of the eight objectives, six large proportion of produce is exported to countries all already relate to the environment, one provides for over the world.” equal access for UK boats to any area within British This historic Fisheries Bill carries many benefits for fisheries limits, and the other seeks to ensure that fishing Wales. Equal access will be granted for all UK vessels to brings social and economic benefits to UK communities. fish throughout UK waters and new powers will be There is thus already a clear emphasis in the Bill on the granted to the devolved Administrations. The fisheries vital importance of sustainability. administrations will publish a joint fisheries statement There is an alternative view that we are in danger of setting out how common objectives will be met. having too many objectives and that there should be Importantly, this Government have learned from the just one straightforward duty to prudently manage a mistakes of the common fisheries policy. Effective public asset using sound science. However, as it stands, management is so important if we want fishing to be a the Bill provides a very clear direction of travel, and it 305 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 306 should be noted that the REAF report’srecommendations, with putting in place the policies and initiatives that will based on the feedback from those working in the industry, arise out of it, which will revitalise the UK fishing have sustainability at their core. industry, not just in Lowestoft or in East Anglia but all I have much sympathy with the intention behind around the UK. amendment 1, as one of the main purposes of having a fishing industry is to provide jobs and to bring benefits Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): The Report to local communities—to support the whole supply stage of this Bill is an historic moment for our country—one chain, from the net to the plate, and not just to support that I have long sought to see. As someone who voted those fishermen who sell their fish directly abroad. To no in the first referendum and leave in the second address that concern, the Government should put in referendum, I am absolutely delighted to be here and place policies and funding streams that will enable us to see this happen. I will support the Government amendments deliver meaningful social and economic benefits for and I was convinced by the Minister’s arguments that coastal communities. That requires a review of the other amendments are not necessary. economic link, and I therefore welcome the consultation Earlier in the debate, a couple of Members said that on proposals to strengthen the condition and to increase they were not around in 1988. Well, I was—I was here. the economic benefit. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall There is also the need to invest in infrastructure, in (Mrs Murray) was right to mention that piece of legislation, ports and in processing plants, and it is good news that which was a building block. What I thought was dreadful the Bill contains provisions that allow Ministers to set was when, later in her speech, she described herself as up new grants and funding streams. But time is marching an old woman. As far as I am concerned, she is in the on; the transition period ends in two and a half months, first flush of youth, frankly.Her expertise in these matters on 31 December, and the industry needs to start planning was clear when she dealt with the right hon. Member for what can be a new and exciting future. We need the for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) on safety, detail of what will replace the European maritime and which is obviously a very personal issue to her. She made fisheries fund. What will be the role of local enterprise her points extremely well. partnerships? In Suffolk and Norfolk, the New Anglia The Bill leaves us with a unique opportunity to LEP is fully engaged in REAF, but its remit needs to be prosper as a global giant in the fishing industry and to clarified. regulate the sector how we see fit, instead of just following Reference has been made to the coastal communities the European Union’s directives. Support for our fishing fund and the role that it can play, but its terms of industry must not be overlooked, as our fishing and fish reference need to be changed. The commitment to processing industries employ 24,000 people and contribute invest in port infrastructure is welcome, but that crosses £1.4 billion to our economy. More data and scientific the boundaries of other Departments, including the knowledge will help us to manage the fish in our own Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government waters more accurately. With that knowledge and new and the Department for Transport. The latter is currently management plans, we can allow the rapid growth of focusing on this issue, and I would be grateful if the our own fleet and, in time, limit access for European Union Minister could advise us of what discussions her vessels. More importantly, the Thames estuary and the Department has had with those Departments. east coast do not have good stock levels of Dover sole, one of the main species. I therefore say to my hon. Amendment 3 aims to prohibit fishing in English waters Friend the Minister that we need to improve the by boats longer than 100 metres—so-called supertrawlers. economic output of the industry, but we also need to be That is in line with the REAF recommendation, which environmentally sustainable to ensure that there are actually went further: to ban beam trawling, including plentiful stocks. electric pulse fishing, which has caused so much devastation off the East Anglian coast. Again, I understand why the Opposition have tabled that amendment, but it should 9 pm not be necessary, as with control of our own waters I very much agree with the remarks made by my hon. back in our own hands the Government are able to put Friends the Members for Redcar (Jacob Young) and for a stop to that immediately. Waveney (Peter Aldous) about the huge vessels that we It is good news that the Government have legislated see in our marine conservation zones and marine protected that foreign pulse beam trawlers will not be permitted areas, which are crucial to the biodiversity of our fish. to operate in UK waters after 31 December, and that Without removing the laws allowing such big boats into they have given notice to the four English-registered these particularly fragile areas, we will undoubtedly vessels that their authorisations will be withdrawn at continue to see a decline in our fish stocks and long-term the same time. I urge the Scottish Government to do pollution of our environment. A recent Greenpeace likewise for their single pulse trawler. Studies have shown investigation reports that in 2019, 25 super-trawlers, that pulse fishing has had a devastating impact on cod none of which were UK-owned—[Interruption.] I think in the southern North sea, and thus I welcome Government the Minister said that we owned one of them. Those amendment 55, which allows the UK to adopt its own super-trawlers spent nearly 3,000 hours fishing in marine measures with regard to the catching of cod in the protected areas of the UK coast. That is absolutely North sea. That should help to restore stocks insofar as unacceptable. One of them included a Dutch-owned it is possible to do so, taking into account the impact of 142-metre vessel that was banned from Australian waters. climate change. I want the Government to watch this situation very closely The Bill is not perfect, in that it draws attention to and do all they can to protect our own fish stocks. loopholes that need to be plugged and provokes questions Domestic waste such as detergents and plastics that that need to be answered, but as a framework Bill it is pollute our water systems decreases the water quality more or less fit for purpose, and we now need to get on around the coast and poisons our future. I hope that, 307 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 308 when the Government get some legislative slots, they the power to legislate for the Crown dependencies in a will do everything they possibly can to protect our like manner. I do not understand why the Government coastline. are adopting a different stance on this, compared with This is a historic moment for our country because, as the one they took on the equally desirable legislation on an island nation, getting back control of our waters is tax transparency. so crucial. I enjoyed the spat between Scottish Members, The problem is this: of the Crown dependencies, the because that brings the Chamber alive, and I felt the Isle of Man has consented. Well and good—there is arguments for and against what is happening on this nothing wrong with a permissive extent clause that particular matter. As far as I am concerned, however, involves the Isle of Man. However, the Bailiwick of this Bill and its Report stage are to be welcomed absolutely. Guernsey, which involves three separate jurisdictions— Guernsey, Alderney and Sark, all of which have their Sir Robert Neill: It is always a pleasure to follow my own legislative integrity—and the island of Jersey, have hon. and old Friend the Member for Southend West declined to agree to the PEC. Indeed, there were discussions (Sir David Amess). I think we can say that literally, going back to July and they politely said, “No, thank being much of an age. He and I have consistently you. We have a good relationship with our neighbours disagreed about Brexit, but we still remain friends for in France”—that is where the vast bulk of their catch all that. For those of us who were staunch remainers, lands—“and if we have difficulties we have our own the common fisheries policy was about the most difficult legislative processes, and we will work and legislate for aspect of our EU membership to defend. That is one ourselves in an emergency if need be.” So I do not see part of our arrangements in departing that I do not the constitutional justification for the Government taking regret, and I do not think that many other people will these powers. either. This is a good Bill and a necessary Bill to put I had a concern—the Minister will know this—about matters on a proper footing going forward. our taking what many of us thought to be pre-emptive Bromley and Chislehurst is not particularly noted for powers in the UK internal markets Bill. In the end that its fishing industry, although I do use this opportunity was described as a “break glass in emergency” clause. I to welcome and give every good wish to the establishment do not know whether this is supposed to be a “break by local businesspeople of the excellent Fish Union glass in emergency” clause, but it seems to suggest the Chislehurst, which will provide a direct link from the possibility of the UK Government trespassing on the catchers to the streets of Royal Parade in Chislehurst. It constitutional integrity of the Crown dependencies, in is a great initiative and I am delighted that they are furtherance of a potential dispute between the UK doing it. Government and the Crown dependencies. In fact, as might not surprise you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am going to talk about a legal point instead, Mr Carmichael: Does the hon. Gentleman share my and that brings me to Government amendment 36. I concern that there is no provision for consultation of listened with care to my hon. Friend the Minister in her any sort in the Bill? This is something that could be exchanges with me and with the right hon. Member for done unilaterally. Is that really the way we should be Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael). My hon. Friend gearing our relationship with the Channel Islands? is a very good Minister, she is a very good lawyer, and Sir Robert Neill: The short answer is that the right she was in the past a very distinguished member of the hon. Gentleman is right. It is not the right way to do Justice Committee, all of which, I hope, will lead her to this and we should think again. That is why I ask the pause and take stock as to the wisdom of inserting a Minister to reflect between now and the Bill going back PEC—a permissive extent clause—at this late stage of to the other place. In the end we came to a pragmatic the Bill. In effect, it seeks to give the Government the compromise on the UK internal markets Bill, and we power to legislate, in certain matters, for the Crown set in place certain processes, triggers and thresholds for dependencies. the exercise of that power, should it be needed in There is a long-standing constitutional convention, emergencies. I urge the Government, between now and as my hon. Friend will know from her time on the Select the Bill returning to the other place, to think hard about Committee, from our report in March 2017 on the doing something similar, so that we do not get into a implications of Brexit on the Crown dependencies, and situation where our friends in the Crown dependencies from our visits to the Crown dependencies, that the find themselves obliged perhaps to seek legal redress normal process is that we legislate for the Crown against our own Government and, if need be, to invoke dependencies only with their consent. They are not their internal arrangements in relation to a legislative former colonies or British territories, and they are not referral procedure. As the Minister knows, that can be part of the United Kingdom in the strict sense. They are embarked on and is not the ideal way to deal with this possessions of Her Majesty the Queen, by right of her matter. position as successor to the Duchy of Normandy. That The concern is simply that the principle of consent is is why they do not have representation here. Where thoroughly enshrined in our relationship with the Crown necessary,their legislative dealings with the UK Government dependencies. The Government have always sought to are dealt with historically through the Privy Council, adhere to that, and the Minister and I know that we and are now safeguarded by the Ministry of Justice via have always advocated that in this House. I do not yet the person of the Lord Chancellor. So their constitutional see the grounds for introducing this provision, other position is different. than the possibility that it might be needed at some The Government have recognised that in the past, for point—again, that sounds familiar in respect of the UK example in tax transparency legislation, where this House internal markets Bill. Let us find another solution in accepted that although we have the power to legislate much the same way, where we consult with the Crown for overseas territories, we do not constitutionally have dependencies. 309 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 310

Without anyconsultation, it seems a needless provocation stood up very, very soundly for the Scottish fishing to attempt to place in the Bill, at a late stage, a provision industry and reminded us carefully that the Scottish that I hope will never be needed, but that goes against Parliament has consented to this legislation. The right the express wishes of the legislatures of two parts of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) British family. One of those legislatures had a general raised the very serious matter of the case that happened election only last week, and it now has a new legislature off Shetland. The correspondence to which he referred and set of Ministers, with a mandate to maintain their is part of the MCA correspondence, so I am not able to constitutional position. I urge the Minister to use her give him that, but what I would like to offer is to good influence and wise lawyerly skills to cause her arrange a meeting between him, the MCA and the DFT colleagues to draw back a little, put some safeguards in to discuss this very important matter. the measure, continue talking to our friends in the On the speech by hon. Member for Upper Bann Crown dependencies and find a means of accommodating (Carla Lockhart), DAERA asked for wider powers on the legitimate concerns of both sides, without taking conservation beyond the scope of this Bill. We are what might be termed a draconian step. exploring the options for other appropriate routes if DAERA wants to continue to take that forward in the Victoria Prentis: Well, the Chairman of the Select future—I am happy to take this offline with her. The Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton hon. Members for Angus (Dave Doogan) and for Stirling and Honiton (Neil Parish), told us to eat more fish. (Alyn Smith) were concerned about the speed of lorry That should not be difficult with Arbroath smokies, movements with fish and seafish on them. Seafood and Strangford prawns and buying local in Totnes. Even day-old chicks do need priority care and access through Wokingham is very keen to eat lots and lots more the short straits and that is something that the Government British fish. Chislehurst has a fish union and Holyhead recognise. is willing to sell it shellfish—it’ll be great. It was lovely to hear from the Cornish fishwife, my The hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn said that she was concerned that we would not actually Mackrory), who gave us some real-life experience and act—that we would just consult. I reassure her that made important points about labelling. I would not consulting is a precursor to action. We will consult on mind going on the trawler vessel with my hon. Friend the economic link for four weeks. We will announce our the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) if he were new policy by the end of the year. We will give the to ask me. My hon. Friend the Member for Redcar industry a year to adapt and the changes will come in (Jacob Young) supported marine protected areas and I in 2022. was glad that I could answer his concerns on super-trawlers. The hon. Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda), To my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter who is no longer in his place, was concerned about Aldous), I can say that the REAF report contains some coastal communities. I can tell him that we have invested interesting ideas that the Government will consider as £228 million through the coastal communities fund, part of our ongoing work on inshore fisheries. supporting projects that should create 20,000 new jobs At the end of this year, foreign vessels will not be able very shortly. to pulse trawl. Let me turn now to the hon. Member for Edinburgh On the PEC, I will continue to consult with my hon. North and Leith (Deidre Brock). Many of the amendments Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert to which she takes objection are at the behest of the Neill) and with the Lord Chancellor, to whom I have Scottish Government. I say politely that new clause 3 is also spoken on this issue. I reassure the House that I really not necessary. Seafish already publishes the will speak again to those in the Crown dependencies information that is sought within it and lays its annual who are concerned by this step, which is not one I take reports and accounts before this Parliament, and that at all lightly, but I have been persuaded that there is no information is widely available. other option. We are not intending to use the provision, There were some emotional speeches, and rightly so, but I think it is correct to have it in the Bill. including from my hon. Friend the Member for South I thank all those who have scrutinised the Bill at both East Cornwall (Mrs Murray), who has spent 40 years ends of this place. In particular, I thank my noble campaigning for this historic moment, but is she stuck Friend Lord Gardiner. May his lines always be tight. in the past? She is not. Yesterday, she launched an Before today, we had spent 51 hours debating just this electric boat, which shows that there is a future for this second version of the Bill, so I think it is fair to say that exciting industry. it has been well and thoroughly scrutinised. Thanks are My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West also due to Lucy Cheeseman and Giulia Grierson, who (Sir David Amess) again spoke with experience and are in the Box tonight, to parliamentary counsel, DEFRA passion. My hon. Friend the Member for Morley and officials and, indeed, all those from the devolved Outwood (Andrea Jenkyns) had a horrible experience Administrations who have worked so hard on this Bill. during the debate and we send our love to her. Her The Bill sets in stone our commitment to improving defence of fishing made her grandfather and Yorkshire the health of our seas. It gives our fishermen the better proud. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Derek future they need, and it is an opportunity to seize a Thomas) also spoke emotionally. I encourage him to once-in-a-generation chance to take back control of join in with our consultation process thoroughly. our natural resources and make sure we pass on healthier I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for North seas, which are abundant with life. The Fisheries Bill Cornwall (Scott Mann) that clause 6(2)(c) gives him the gives us the power we need to protect our fish stocks flexibility that he seeks and I am looking forward to and help our seafood sector. It sets a gold standard for going fishing with him soon—if he ever asks me. My sustainability, and it allows us to bring fishing home. I hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) commend it to the House. 311 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 312

Question put and agreed to. “Wales” includes the area of the Welsh zone beyond the New clause 8 accordingly read a Second time, and added seaward limit of the territorial sea.” to the Bill. (4) The Legislation (Wales) Act 2019 (anaw 4) is amended in accordance with subsections (5) to (8). New Clause 9 (5) In section 1(3)(d) (duty to keep accessibility of Welsh law under review)—

FOREIGN FISHING BOATS THAT ARE EXCLUSIVELY FAROE (a) in the English language text, omit “applies in relation ISLANDS-REGULATED to Wales and relates to subject matter which”; (1) No prohibition, restriction or obligation relating to sea (b) in the Welsh language text, omit “y mae’n gymwys o fishing imposed by any enactment applies to— ran Cymru ac y mae’n ymwneud â phwnc”. (a) anything done or not done by or in relation to a foreign (6) In section 3 (legislation to which Part 2 of the Act applies), fishing boat at a time at which the fishing boat is in after subsection (3)— waters lying within the Special Area and is exclusively Faroe Islands-regulated, or (a) in the English language text, insert— (b) anything done or not done in relation to sea fish that “(4) In relation to subordinate legislation that relates to were caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying fishing, fisheries or fish health and is made after section 45 of the within the Special Area at a time at which the fishing Fisheries Act 2020 (c. 00) comes into force, the reference in boat was exclusively Faroe Islands-regulated. subsection (2)(b)(iii) to Wales includes the area of the Welsh zone (2) For the purposes of this section a foreign fishing boat is beyond the seaward limits of the territorial sea.”; “exclusively Faroe Islands-regulated” if— (b) in the Welsh language text, insert— (a) there is in force a licence issued by or on behalf of the Government of the Faroe Islands authorising it to “(4) Mewn perthynas ag is-ddeddfwriaeth sy’n ymwneud â fish in waters lying (to any extent) within the Special physgota, pysgodfeydd neu iechyd pysgod ac a wneir ar ôl i Area, and adran 45 o Ddeddf Pysgodfeydd 2020 (p. 00) ddod i rym, mae’r (b) the fishing boat is not on a list maintained and cyfeiriad yn is-adran (2)(b)(iii) at Gymru yn cynnwys yr ardal o published by the Scottish Ministers for the purposes barth Cymru sydd y tu hwnt i derfynau atfor y môr tiriogaethol.” of this subsection. (7) After section 40— (3) In this section— (a) “enactment” has the same meaning as in the European (a) in the English language text insert— Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and includes an “40A Application of this Part in relation to the Welsh enactment contained in or made under this Act; zone (b) “the Special Area” means the Special Area, as defined in Article 4 of, and Schedule C to, the Faroe Islands In relation to subordinate legislation that relates to fishing, Treaty; fisheries or fish health, references in this Part to Wales include (c) “the Faroe Islands Treaty” means the agreement the area of the Welsh zone beyond the seaward limits of the between— territorial sea.”; (i) the Government of the United Kingdom, and (b) in the Welsh language text insert— (ii) the Government of the Kingdom of Denmark together with the Home Government of the Faroe “40A Cymhwyso’r Rhan hon mewn perthynas â pharth Islands, Cymru relating to the maritime delimitation in the area between Mewn perthynas ag is-ddeddfwriaeth sy’n ymwneud â the Faroe Islands and the United Kingdom, entered physgota, pysgodfeydd neu iechyd pysgod, mae cyfeiriadau yn y into on 18 May 1999.—(Victoria Prentis.) Rhan hon at Gymru yn cynnwys yr ardal o barth Cymru sydd y This new clause exempts foreign fishing boats from UK regulation tu hwnt i derfynau atfor y môr tiriogaethol.”” where they are fishing in the Special Area and have a Faroe Islands (8) In Schedule 1, in the Table— licence. It also gives the Scottish Ministers power to remove this exemption from particular foreign fishing boats by putting them on (a) in the English language text, after the entry for “Welsh a published list. These changes are in order to comply with the tribunal (tribiwnlys Cymreig)” insert— treaty entered into with Denmark in 1999 on maritime delimitation in the area between the United Kingdom and the Faroe Islands. “Welsh “Welsh zone” has the meaning given by section 158 of Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added zone the Government of Wales Act 2006 (c. 32) (and see to the Bill. (parth article 3 of the Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer Cymru) of Functions) Order 2010 (S.I. 2010/760), which makes provision about the limits of the zone)”; New Clause 10 (b) in the Welsh language text, after the entry for “offeryn UE (EU instrument)” insert— INTERPRETATION OF WELSH LEGISLATION (1) In the Interpretation Act 1978, section 23B (application of “parth mae i “parth Cymru” yr ystyr a roddir i “Welsh zone” Interpretation Act 1978 to Welsh legislation), as substituted by Cymru gan adran 158 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006 paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 to the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019 (Welsh (p. 32) (a gweler erthygl 3 o Orchymyn Parth Cymru (anaw 4), is amended in accordance with subsections (2) and (3). zone) (Ffiniau a Throsglwyddo Swyddogaethau) 2010 (O.S. (2) In subsection (6), for “and “Wales”” substitute “, “Welsh 2010/760), sy’n gwneud darpariaeth ynghylch terfynau’r zone” and (subject to subsection (7)) “Wales””. parth)”.—(Victoria Prentis.) (3) After subsection (6) insert— This new clause amends legislation that deals with the “(7) In relation to a provision that— interpretation of Welsh legislation, in consequence of the changes made to the legislative competence of Senedd Cymru by clause 45. (a) relates to fishing, fisheries or fish health, and (b) is contained in an instrument made after section43 of Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added the Fisheries Act 2020 comes into force, to the Bill. 313 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 314

New Clause 3 NOES Adams, Nigel Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey SEA FISH INDUSTRY AUTHORITY: ACCOUNTS AND Afolami, Bim Crosbie, Virginia REPORTS Afriyie, Adam Crouch, Tracey (1) The Fisheries Act 1981 is amended as follows. Ahmad Khan, Imran Daly, James Aiken, Nickie Davies, David T. C. (2) In section 11 (accounts and reports)— Aldous, Peter Davies, Gareth (a) after subsection (2) insert— Allan, Lucy Davies, Dr James “(2A) The statement of accounts must specify the total Amess, Sir David Davies, Mims amount of income received in the financial year from levies Anderson, Lee Davis, rh Mr David imposed under section 4 in relation to sea fish or sea fish Anderson, Stuart Davison, Dehenna products landed in Scotland or trans-shipped within the Scottish Andrew, Stuart Dinenage, Caroline zone.”, Ansell, Caroline Dines, Miss Sarah (b) after subsection (7) insert— Argar, Edward Djanogly, Mr Jonathan “(7A) The report must include details of how income received Atherton, Sarah Docherty, Leo from levies imposed under section 4 has been applied in the Atkins, Victoria Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. financial year in respect of each part of the United Kingdom by Bacon, Gareth Donelan, Michelle the Authority in exercising its functions including in particular Bacon, Mr Richard Dorries, Ms Nadine details, in respect of each part of the United Kingdom, of how Badenoch, Kemi Double, Steve the income has been applied by the Authority in— Bailey, Shaun Dowden, rh Oliver (a) promoting the efficiency of the sea fish industry in that Baillie, Siobhan Doyle-Price, Jackie part, Baker, Duncan Drax, Richard (b) promoting the marketing and consumption of, and the Baker, Mr Steve Duddridge, James export of, sea fish and sea fish products relating to Baldwin, Harriett Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain that part.”.—(Deidre Brock.) Barclay, rh Steve Dunne, rh Philip This new clause is intended to ensure that the Authority reports Baron, Mr John Eastwood, Mark how income received from the levies it imposes has been applied in Baynes, Simon Edwards, Ruth respect of each part of the United Kingdom. Bell, Aaron Ellis, rh Michael Brought up, and read the First time. Benton, Scott Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Berry, rh Jake Eustice, rh George The House divided: Ayes 65, Noes 335. Bhatti, Saqib Evans, Dr Luke Blackman, Bob Evennett, rh Sir David Division No. 133] [9.17 pm Bone, Mr Peter Everitt, Ben Bowie, Andrew Fabricant, Michael AYES Bradley, Ben Fell, Simon Bardell, Hannah Hosie, Stewart Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Katherine Black, Mhairi Jardine, Christine Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark Blackford, rh Ian Lake, Ben Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Nick Brereton, Jack Blackman, Kirsty Law, Chris Ford, Vicky Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin Bonnar, Steven Linden, David Brine, Steve Fox, rh Dr Liam Brock, Deidre Lucas, Caroline Bristow, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Brown, Alan MacAskill, Kenny Britcliffe, Sara Frazer, Lucy Callaghan, Amy MacNeil, Angus Brendan Brokenshire, rh James Freeman, George Cameron, Dr Lisa Mc Nally, John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Browne, Anthony Freer, Mike McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Chamberlain, Wendy Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard McDonald, Stuart C. Chapman, Douglas Buchan, Felicity Fysh, Mr Marcus McLaughlin, Anne Cherry, Joanna Burghart, Alex Gale, rh Sir Roger Monaghan, Carol Cooper, Daisy Burns, rh Conor Garnier, Mark Cowan, Ronnie Moran, Layla Butler, Rob Ghani, Ms Nusrat Crawley, Angela Newlands, Gavin Cairns, rh Alun Gibb, rh Nick Davey, rh Ed Nicolson, John Carter, Andy Gibson, Peter Day, Martyn O’Hara, Brendan Cartlidge, James Gideon, Jo Docherty-Hughes, Martin Olney, Sarah Cash, Sir William Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Dorans, Allan Oswald, Kirsten Cates, Miriam Girvan, Paul Eastwood, Colum Saville Roberts, rh Liz Caulfield, Maria Glen, John Edwards, Jonathan Sheppard, Tommy Chalk, Alex Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Farron, Tim Smith, Alyn Chishti, Rehman Graham, Richard Farry, Stephen Stephens, Chris Churchill, Jo Grant, Mrs Helen Fellows, Marion Stone, Jamie Clarke, Mr Simon Gray, James Clarke, Theo Grayling, rh Chris Ferrier, Margaret Thewliss, Alison Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, Chris Flynn, Stephen Thomson, Richard Clarkson, Chris Green, rh Damian Gibson, Patricia Whitford, Dr Philippa Cleverly, rh James Griffith, Andrew Grady, Patrick Williams, Hywel Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffiths, Kate Grant, Peter Wilson, Munira Gray, Neil Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Grundy, James Wishart, Pete Hanna, Claire Colburn, Elliot Gullis, Jonathan Hanvey, Neale Tellers for the Ayes: Collins, Damian Halfon, rh Robert Hendry, Drew Owen Thompson and Costa, Alberto Hall, Luke Hobhouse, Wera Dave Doogan Courts, Robert Hammond, Stephen Coutinho, Claire Hands, rh Greg 315 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 316

Harper, rh Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Tugendhat, Tom Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Jason Smith, rh Julian Vara, Mr Shailesh Harrison, Trudy McCartney, Karl Smith, Royston Vickers, Martin Hart, Sally-Ann Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda Vickers, Matt Hart, rh Simon Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben Villiers, rh Theresa Hayes, rh Sir John Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark Wakeford, Christian Heald, rh Sir Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Walker, Mr Robin Heappey, James Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Wallis, Dr Jamie Heaton-Harris, Chris Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, Jane Warman, Matt Henderson, Gordon Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Watling, Giles Henry, Darren Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Webb, Suzanne Higginbotham, Antony Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Iain Whately, Helen Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Damien Streeter, Sir Gary Wheeler, Mrs Heather Hoare, Simon Moore, Robbie Stride, rh Mel Whittaker, Craig Holden, Mr Richard Mordaunt, rh Penny Stuart, Graham Whittingdale, rh Mr John Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Wiggin, Bill Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, David Sunderland, James Wild, James Holloway, Adam Morris, James Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Williams, Craig Holmes, Paul Morrissey, Joy Syms, Sir Robert Williamson, rh Gavin Howell, John Morton, Wendy Thomas, Derek Wilson, rh Sammy Howell, Paul Mullan, Dr Kieran Throup, Maggie Wood, Mike Huddleston, Nigel Mumby-Croft, Holly Timpson, Edward Young, Jacob Hudson, Dr Neil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tolhurst, Kelly Zahawi, Nadhim Hughes, Eddie Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Tellers for the Noes: Hunt, Jane Neill, Sir Robert Tracey, Craig David Duguid and Hunt, rh Jeremy Nici, Lia Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Michael Tomlinson Hunt, Tom Nokes, rh Caroline Jack, rh Mr Alister Norman, rh Jesse Javid, rh Sajid O’Brien, Neil Question accordingly negatived. Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Offord, Dr Matthew The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Jenkin, Sir Bernard Opperman, Guy proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Jenkinson, Mark Paisley, Ian proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Jenkyns, Andrea Parish, Neil Jenrick, rh Robert Paterson, rh Mr Owen Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Clause 1 Johnston, David Penning, rh Sir Mike Jones, Andrew Penrose, John FISHERIES OBJECTIVES Jones, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Jones, Fay Philp, Chris Amendment proposed: 1, page 2, line 32, at end insert— Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher “(b) seafood landings into United Kingdom ports are Jupp, Simon Poulter, Dr Dan increased and maximised; and Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca (c) that an average of not less than 65% of seafood caught Kearns, Alicia Prentis, Victoria in English waters, across all relevant species, should Keegan, Gillian Pursglove, Tom be landed in English ports.”—(Luke Pollard.) Knight, rh Sir Greg Quin, Jeremy This amendment would amend the “national benefit objective” to Knight, Julian Quince, Will include a commitment to increase seafood landings into the United Kruger, Danny Randall, Tom Kingdom and create a specific target for English ports. Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Redwood, rh John Question put, That the amendment be made. Lamont, John Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Largan, Robert Richards, Nicola The House divided: Ayes 196, Noes 335. Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Division No. 134] [9.33 pm Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Levy, Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence AYES Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Gavin Lewis, rh Brandon Robinson, Mary Abbott, rh Ms Diane Butler, Dawn Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Abrahams, Debbie Byrne, Ian Lockhart, Carla Ross, Douglas Ali, Rushanara Byrne, rh Liam Loder, Chris Rowley, Lee Ali, Tahir Cadbury, Ruth Logan, Mark Russell, Dean Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Campbell, rh Sir Alan Longhi, Marco Rutley, David Amesbury, Mike Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Anderson, Fleur Chamberlain, Wendy Lopez, Julia Sambrook, Gary Antoniazzi, Tonia Champion, Sarah Lopresti, Jack Saxby, Selaine Barker, Paula Charalambous, Bambos Lord, Mr Jonathan Scully, Paul Beckett, rh Margaret Clark, Feryal Mackinlay, Craig Seely, Bob Begum, Apsana Cooper, Daisy Mackrory, Cherilyn Selous, Andrew Betts, Mr Clive Cooper, Rosie Maclean, Rachel Shannon, Jim Blake, Olivia Cooper, rh Yvette Mak, Alan Sharma, rh Alok Brennan, Kevin Corbyn, rh Jeremy Malthouse, Kit Shelbrooke, rh Alec Brown, Ms Lyn Coyle, Neil Mangnall, Anthony Simmonds, David Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Creasy, Stella Mann, Scott Skidmore, rh Chris Bryant, Chris Cruddas, Jon Marson, Julie Smith, Chloe Buck, Ms Karen Cryer, John Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Greg Burgon, Richard Cummins, Judith 317 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 318

Cunningham, Alex Long Bailey, Rebecca Turner, Karl Whittome, Nadia Daby, Janet Lucas, Caroline Twigg, Derek Wilson, Munira Davey, rh Ed Lynch, Holly Twist, Liz Winter, Beth David, Wayne Madders, Justin Vaz, rh Valerie Yasin, Mohammad Davies, Geraint Mahmood, Mr Khalid Webbe, Claudia Zeichner, Daniel Davies-Jones, Alex Mahmood, Shabana West, Catherine Tellers for the Ayes: De Cordova, Marsha Malhotra, Seema Whitehead, Dr Alan Matt Western and Debbonaire, Thangam Maskell, Rachael Whitley, Mick Jeff Smith Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Matheson, Christian Dodds, Anneliese McCarthy, Kerry Doughty, Stephen McDonagh, Siobhain NOES Dowd, Peter McDonald, Andy Adams, Nigel Clarke, Theo Dromey, Jack McDonnell, rh John Afolami, Bim Clarke-Smith, Brendan Eagle, Ms Angela McFadden, rh Mr Pat Afriyie, Adam Clarkson, Chris Eagle, Maria McGinn, Conor Ahmad Khan, Imran Cleverly, rh James Efford, Clive McGovern, Alison Aiken, Nickie Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Elliott, Julie McKinnell, Catherine Aldous, Peter Colburn, Elliot Elmore, Chris McMahon, Jim Allan, Lucy Collins, Damian Eshalomi, Florence McMorrin, Anna Amess, Sir David Costa, Alberto Esterson, Bill Mearns, Ian Anderson, Lee Courts, Robert Evans, Chris Mishra, Navendu Anderson, Stuart Coutinho, Claire Farron, Tim Moran, Layla Andrew, Stuart Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Farry, Stephen Morden, Jessica Ansell, Caroline Crosbie, Virginia Fletcher, Colleen Morgan, Stephen Argar, Edward Crouch, Tracey Fovargue, Yvonne Morris, Grahame Atherton, Sarah Daly, James Foxcroft, Vicky Murray, Ian Atkins, Victoria Davies, Gareth Foy, Mary Kelly Murray, James Bacon, Gareth Davies, Dr James Furniss, Gill Nandy, Lisa Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Mims Gardiner, Barry Nichols, Charlotte Badenoch, Kemi Davis, rh Mr David Glindon, Mary Norris, Alex Bailey, Shaun Davison, Dehenna Green, Kate Olney, Sarah Baillie, Siobhan Dinenage, Caroline Greenwood, Margaret Onwurah, Chi Baker, Duncan Dines, Miss Sarah Griffith, Nia Oppong-Asare, Abena Baker, Mr Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Gwynne, Andrew Osamor, Kate Baldwin, Harriett Docherty, Leo Haigh, Louise Osborne, Kate Barclay, rh Steve Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Hamilton, Fabian Owatemi, Taiwo Baron, Mr John Donelan, Michelle Hardy, Emma Owen, Sarah Baynes, Simon Dorries, Ms Nadine Harman, rh Ms Harriet Peacock, Stephanie Bell, Aaron Double, Steve Harris, Carolyn Perkins, Mr Toby Benton, Scott Dowden, rh Oliver Hayes, Helen Phillips, Jess Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Healey, rh John Pollard, Luke Berry, rh Jake Drax, Richard Hendrick, Sir Mark Powell, Lucy Bhatti, Saqib Duddridge, James Hill, Mike Qureshi, Yasmin Blackman, Bob Duguid, David Hillier, Meg Rayner, Angela Blunt, Crispin Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hobhouse, Wera Rees, Christina Bone, Mr Peter Dunne, rh Philip Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Reeves, Ellie Bowie, Andrew Eastwood, Mark Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel Bradley, Ben Edwards, Ruth Hollern, Kate Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Bradley, rh Karen Ellis, rh Michael Hopkins, Rachel Rimmer, Ms Marie Brady, Sir Graham Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Howarth, rh Sir George Rodda, Matt Braverman, rh Suella Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Huq, Dr Rupa Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Brereton, Jack Eustice, rh George Hussain, Imran Shah, Naz Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Dr Luke Jardine, Christine Sharma, Mr Virendra Brine, Steve Evennett, rh Sir David Jarvis, Dan Sheerman, Mr Barry Bristow, Paul Everitt, Ben Johnson, Dame Diana Siddiq, Tulip Britcliffe, Sara Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Kim Slaughter, Andy Brokenshire, rh James Fell, Simon Jones, Darren Smith, Cat Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Gerald Smith, Nick Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Mark Jones, rh Mr Kevan Smyth, Karin Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Nick Jones, Ruth Sobel, Alex Burghart, Alex Ford, Vicky Jones, Sarah Spellar, rh John Burns, rh Conor Foster, Kevin Kane, Mike Stevens, Jo Butler, Rob Fox, rh Dr Liam Keeley, Barbara Stone, Jamie Cairns, rh Alun Francois, rh Mr Mark Kendall, Liz Streeting, Wes Carter, Andy Frazer, Lucy Khan, Afzal Stringer, Graham Cartlidge, James Freeman, George Kinnock, Stephen Sultana, Zarah Cash, Sir William Freer, Mike Kyle, Peter Tami, rh Mark Cates, Miriam Fuller, Richard Lammy, rh Mr David Tarry, Sam Caulfield, Maria Fysh, Mr Marcus Lavery, Ian Thomas-Symonds, Nick Chalk, Alex Gale, rh Sir Roger Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Thornberry, rh Emily Chishti, Rehman Garnier, Mark Lewis, Clive Timms, rh Stephen Churchill, Jo Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lloyd, Tony Trickett, Jon Clarke, Mr Simon Gibb, rh Nick 319 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 320

Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Stuart, Graham Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Richards, Nicola Sturdy, Julian Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Levy, Ian Richardson, Angela Sunderland, James Girvan, Paul Lewer, Andrew Roberts, Rob Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Glen, John Lewis, rh Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence Syms, Sir Robert Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robinson, Gavin Thomas, Derek Graham, Richard Lockhart, Carla Robinson, Mary Timpson, Edward Grant, Mrs Helen Loder, Chris Rosindell, Andrew Tolhurst, Kelly Gray, James Logan, Mark Ross, Douglas Tomlinson, Justin Grayling, rh Chris Longhi, Marco Rowley, Lee Tracey, Craig Green, Chris Lopez, Julia Russell, Dean Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Green, rh Damian Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Tugendhat, Tom Griffith, Andrew Lord, Mr Jonathan Sambrook, Gary Vara, Mr Shailesh Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig Saxby, Selaine Vickers, Martin Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Scully, Paul Vickers, Matt Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel Seely, Bob Villiers, rh Theresa Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan Selous, Andrew Wakeford, Christian Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit Shannon, Jim Walker, Mr Robin Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Sharma, rh Alok Wallis, Dr Jamie Hands, rh Greg Mann, Scott Shelbrooke, rh Alec Warman, Matt Harper, rh Mr Mark Marson, Julie Simmonds, David Watling, Giles Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Skidmore, rh Chris Webb, Suzanne Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Smith, Chloe Whately, Helen Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Smith, Greg Wheeler, Mrs Heather Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Smith, rh Julian Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Whittingdale, rh Mr John Smith, Royston Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mercer, Johnny Wiggin, Bill Solloway, Amanda Heappey, James Merriman, Huw Wild, James Spencer, Dr Ben Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Williams, Craig Spencer, rh Mark Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin Williamson, rh Gavin Stafford, Alexander Wilson, rh Sammy Henry, Darren Milling, rh Amanda Stephenson, Andrew Wood, Mike Higginbotham, Antony Mills, Nigel Stevenson, Jane Young, Jacob Hinds, rh Damian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Zahawi, Nadhim Hoare, Simon Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Bob Holden, Mr Richard Moore, Damien Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Noes: Hollinrake, Kevin Moore, Robbie Streeter, Sir Gary Maggie Throup and Hollobone, Mr Philip Mordaunt, rh Penny Stride, rh Mel Michael Tomlinson Holloway, Adam Morris, Anne Marie Holmes, Paul Morris, David Question accordingly negatived. Howell, John Morris, James Howell, Paul Morrissey, Joy The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Huddleston, Nigel Morton, Wendy proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Hudson, Dr Neil Mullan, Dr Kieran proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Hughes, Eddie Mumby-Croft, Holly Hunt, Jane Murray, Mrs Sheryll Hunt, rh Jeremy Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Clause 16 Hunt, Tom Neill, Sir Robert Jack, rh Mr Alister Nici, Lia FOREIGN FISHING BOATS REQUIRED TO BE LICENSED IF Javid, rh Sajid Nokes, rh Caroline WITHIN BRITISH FISHERY LIMITS Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Norman, rh Jesse Government amendments made: 4, page 12, leave out Jenkin, Sir Bernard O’Brien, Neil lines 33 to 37. Jenkinson, Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Jenkyns, Andrea Opperman, Guy This amendment is consequential on NC9. Jenrick, rh Robert Paisley, Ian Government amendment 5, page 13, line 7, leave out Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil subsections (9) and (10) and insert— Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen “(9) In this section “licence” means a licence granted under Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark section 17.”—(Victoria Prentis.) Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike This amendment is consequential on NC9. Jones, Fay Penrose, John Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Clause 37 Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca SECTION 36: INTERPRETATION Knight, rh Sir Greg Prentis, Victoria Government amendment made: 6, page 26, leave out Knight, Julian Pursglove, Tom lines 24 to 27.—(Victoria Prentis.) Kruger, Danny Quin, Jeremy This amendment removes the definition of “fishery products” from Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quince, Will clause 37. The definition is inserted into clause 49 by a separate Lamont, John Randall, Tom amendment. The effect is that the definition applies generally in the Largan, Robert Redwood, rh John Bill. The definition is used in NC8. 321 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 322

Clause 39 (b) subsections (4) to (6) of that section, (c) section 37 (interpretation of section36), SCOPE OF REGULATIONS UNDER SECTION 36 OR 38 (d) sections 39 to41 (regulations under section 36: scope Government amendment made: 7, page 28, line 16, and procedure), leave out from “State” to “under” in line 17 and insert (e) section 48 (regulations), and “, or of any of the sea fish licensing authorities,”.—(Victoria (f) section 49 (interpretation).”.—(Victoria Prentis.) Prentis.) This amendment would allow the power of the Secretary of State The purpose of subsection (5) of this clause is to prevent the to make provision about fisheries for the purpose of implementing regulation-making powers in sections 36 and 38 from being used to international obligations to be extended to the Crown modify the licensing functions conferred by the Bill. This Dependencies. amendment ensures that subsection (5) protects the functions of all the sea fish licensing authorities. Clause 51 Clause 47

AMENDMENTS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN MADE UNDER COMMENCEMENT EXISTING POWERS Government amendments made: 12, page 36, line 13, Government amendment made: 8, page 31, leave out at end insert— lines 16 and 17.—(Victoria Prentis.) “(da) section (Agency arrangements between sea fish This amendment removes the definition of “subordinate licensing authorities)(agency arrangements between legislation” from clause 47. A revised version of the definition is sea fish licensing authorities);”. inserted into clause 49 by a separate amendment. The effect is that This amendment provides that NC8 comes into force on Royal the revised definition applies generally in the Bill. The definition is Assent. used in NC8. Government amendment 13, page 36, line 16, leave Clause 49 out “Section 43 (legislative competence of Senedd Cymru)” INTERPRETATION and insert Government amendments made: 9, page 33, line 40, at end insert— “Sections 43 and (Interpretation of Welsh legislation) (legislative competence of Senedd Cymru etc)”. ‘“fishery products” means— (a) fish or other aquatic organisms resulting from This amendment provides that NC10 comes into force two months fishing or aquaculture, or after Royal Assent. (b) products derived from aquatic organisms within Government amendment 14, page 36, line 21, leave paragraph (a);”’. out This amendment relocates the definition of “fishery products” “and Schedules 3 and 4” (currently in clause 37 and Schedule 8) into clause 49 so that it and insert applies generally throughout the Bill. The definition is used in NC8. Government amendment 10, page 35, line 11, at end “, Schedule 3 and (subject to subsection (5A)) Schedule 4”. insert— This amendment relates to the commencement of the amendment, inserted by another government amendment into Schedule 4, that ‘“sea fish licensing authority” means— clarifies the procedure in the Scottish Parliament applicable to (a) the Scottish Ministers, certain Scottish Statutory Instruments made by the Scottish (b) the Welsh Ministers, Ministers under the Sea Fish Conservation Act 1967. (c) the Northern Ireland department, or Government amendment 15, page 36, line 23, at end (d) the Marine Management Organisation;”’. insert— This amendment relocates the definition of “sea fish licensing “(da) section (Foreign fishing boats that are exclusively authority” (currently in Schedule 3) into clause 49 so that it Faroe Islands-regulated) (foreign fishing boats applies generally throughout the Bill. The definition is used in NC8. exclusively Faroe-Islands regulated);”. Government amendment 11, page 35, line 26, at end This amendment provides that NC9 comes into force on Royal insert— Assent. ‘“subordinate legislation” means an instrument made under primary legislation or under retained direct Government amendment 16, page 36, line 34, at end EU legislation;”’.—(Victoria Prentis.) insert— This amendment revises and relocates the definition of “(5A) In Schedule 4, the amendment made by paragraph “subordinate legislation” (currently in clause 47) into clause 49 so 6(13)(d) is treated as always having had effect.”.—(Victoria that it applies generally throughout the Bill. The definition is used Prentis.) in NC8. This amendment relates to the commencement of the amendment, inserted by another government amendment into Schedule 4, that Clause 50 clarifies the procedure in the Scottish Parliament applicable to certain Scottish Statutory Instruments made by the Scottish EXTENT Ministers under the Sea Fish Conservation Act 1967. Government amendment made: 36, page 36, line 6, at end insert— “(6) Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the Schedule 2 following provisions of this Act to extend, with or without modifications, to any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of REGULATION OF FOREIGN FISHING BOATS Man— Government amendments made: 17, page 42, line 35, (a) subsection (1)(a) of section36 (power to make provision for the purpose of implementing international leave out sub-paragraph (6). obligations), This amendment is consequential on NC9. 323 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 324

Government amendment 18, page 44, line 3, leave The Sharks, Skates and Rays (Prohibition of Fishing, Trans-shipment out sub-paragraph (5). and Landing) (Scotland) Order 2012 This amendment is consequential on NC9. 26 (1) The Sharks, Skates and Rays (Prohibition of Fishing, Trans-shipment and Landing) (Scotland) Order 2012 (S.S.I. Government amendment 19, page 44, line 35, leave 2012/63) is amended as follows. out sub-paragraph (4). (2) In article 2 (definitions) omit the following definitions— This amendment is consequential on NC9. “fishing boat”; Government amendment 20, page 45, line 23, leave “relevant British fishing boat”; out sub-paragraphs (3) and (4). “Scottish fishing boat”; This amendment is consequential on NC9. “third country”; Government amendment 21, page 46, line 3, leave “third country fishing boat”. out sub-paragraphs (3) and (4). (3) Omit article 3 (application). This amendment is consequential on NC9. (4) In article 4 (prohibition of fishing for tope), for “a boat to which this article applies” substitute “any fishing boat”. Government amendment 22, page 46, line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 6 on page 47. (5) In article 5 (prohibition of trans-shipment of tope), for “a boat or vessel to which this article applies” substitute “any This amendment is consequential on NC9. fishing boat”. Government amendment 23, page 47, line 30, leave (6) In article 6 (prohibition of landing tope)— out sub-paragraphs (3) and (4). (a) the existing provision becomes paragraph (1); This amendment is consequential on NC9. (b) in that paragraph, for “a boat or vessel to which this Government amendment 24, page 52, line 43, at end article applies” substitute “any fishing boat”; insert— (c) after that paragraph insert— (2) The prohibition in paragraph (1) does not apply in relation ‘SCOTLAND to tope caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery limits.” The Lobsters and Crawfish (Prohibition of Fishing and Landing) (Scotland) Order 1999 (7) In article 7 (prohibition of landing specified species of shark, skate and ray)— 22 (1) The Lobsters and Crawfish (Prohibition of Fishing and Landing) (Scotland) Order 1991 (S.S.I. 1999/88) is amended as (a) in paragraph (1), for “a boat or vessel to which this follows. article applies” substitute “any fishing boat”; (2) In article 3 (fishing prohibition)— (b) after paragraph (1) insert— (a) in paragraph (2), for “a relevant British” substitute (1A) The prohibition in paragraph (1) does not apply in “any”; relation to a specified species caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery limits.” (b) in paragraph (3), for “within the Scottish zone or anywhere outside that zone” substitute “outside the (c) in paragraph (2), for “paragraph (1)” substitute “this Scottish zone”. article”. (3) In article 4 (landing prohibition), for paragraph (3) (8) In article 8 (powers of British sea-fishery officers in substitute— relation to fishing boats), in paragraph (1)— (3) The prohibition in paragraph (2) does not apply in relation (a) in sub-paragraph (b), for “relevant British” substitute to sea fish caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside “other”; British fishery limits.” (b) omit sub-paragraph (c) and the “and” before it. (4) In article 5 (powers of British sea-fishery officers in The Regulation of Scallop Fishing (Scotland) Order 2017 relation to fishing boats), in paragraph (1)(b), for “relevant 27 (1) The Regulation of Scallop Fishing (Scotland) Order British” substitute “other”. 2017 (S.S.I. 2017/127) is amended as follows. The Sea Fish (Specified Sea Areas) (Regulation of Nets and (2) In article 2 (interpretation), omit the definition of “British Other Fishing Gear) (Scotland) Order 2000 fishing boat”. 23 (1) The Sea Fish (Specified Sea Areas) (Regulation of Nets (3) In article 3 (prescribed minimum size for landing king and Other Fishing Gear) (Scotland) Order 2000 (S.S.I. 2000/227) scallops)— is amended as follows. (a) for paragraph (3) substitute— (2) In article 3 (application), in paragraphs (1)(b) and (1B)(b), (3) The prohibition imposed by section 1(1) of the Act, as read for “relevant British” substitute “other”. with paragraph (1), does not apply in relation to sea fish caught The Prohibition of Fishing for Scallops (Scotland) Order 2003 by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery 24 (1) The Prohibition of Fishing for Scallops (Scotland) limits.”; Order 2003 (S.S.I. 2003/371) is amended as follows. (b) in paragraph (5), omit sub-paragraph (a). (2) In articles 3 and 4 (prohibitions of fishing for king (4) In article 4 (restrictions on number of scallop dredges), in scallops) for “a Scottish fishing boat or by any relevant British” the opening words, omit “British”. substitute “any”. (5) In article 5 (exemption from restrictions in article 4), in (3) In article 6 (powers of British sea-fishery officers), in paragraphs (1), (2), (3)(a) and (4)(a), omit “British”. paragraph (1)(b), for “relevant British” substitute “other”. (6) In article 6 (requirement to install a functioning remote The Shrimp Fishing Nets (Scotland) Order 2004 electronic monitoring system), in paragraphs (1) and (3), omit 25 (1) The Shrimp Fishing Nets (Scotland) Order 2004 (S.S.I. “British”. 2004/261) is amended as follows. The Prohibition of Fishing with Multiple Trawls (Scotland) Order (2) In article 3 (prohibition on fishing for shrimps without a 2017 separator trawl or sorting grid), in paragraph (1)(b), for “relevant 28 (1) The Prohibition of Fishing with Multiple Trawls British” substitute “other”. (Scotland) Order 2017 (S.S.I. 2017/325) is amended as follows. (3) In article 4 (powers of British sea-fishery officers), in (2) In article 3 (prohibition of method of fishing), in paragraph (1)(b), for “relevant British” substitute “other”. paragraph (1)(b), for “relevant British” substitute “other”. 325 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 326

The Specified Crustaceans (Prohibition on Landing, Sale and 31 (1) The Inshore Fishing (Prohibition of Fishing and Carriage) (Scotland) Order 2017 Fishing Methods) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1993 (S.R. 29 (1) The Specified Crustaceans (Prohibition on Landing, (N.I.) 1993 No. 155) are amended as follows. Sale and Carriage) (Scotland) Order 2017 (S.S.I. 2017/455) is (2) In regulation 4 (exceptions), omit “to any person who is amended as follows. not a British citizen or”. (2) In article 2 (interpretation), omit the definition of “foreign The Razor Shells (Prohibition of Fishing) Regulations (Northern fishing boat”. Ireland) 1998 (3) In article 3 (prescribed minimum size for landing edible 32 (1) The Razor Shells (Prohibition of Fishing) Regulations crabs in Scotland), for paragraph (2) substitute— (Northern Ireland) 1998 (Northern Ireland) 1998 (S.R. (N.I.) (2) The prohibition imposed by section 1(1) of the Act, as read 1998 No. 414) are amended as follows. with paragraph (1), does not apply in relation to sea fish caught (2) In regulation 4 (exceptions), omit paragraph (a). by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery The Crabs and Lobsters (Minimum Size) Order (Northern limits.” Ireland) 2000 (4) In article 4 (prohibitions on landing, sale, exposure or offer 33 (1) The Crabs and Lobsters (Minimum Size) Order for sale or possession, or carriage of velvet crabs)— (Northern Ireland) 2000 (S.R. (N.I.) 2000 No. 200) is amended as (a) in paragraph (4), after “Scottish zone” insert “, or a follows. foreign fishing boat within the Scottish zone,”; (2) In article 2 (interpretation)— (b) for paragraphs (6) and (7) substitute— (a) omit the definition of “British fishing boat”; (6) The prohibitions imposed by— (b) for the definition of “foreign fishing boat” substitute— (a) section 1(1) of the Act, as read with paragraph (1), and “foreign fishing boat” has the same meaning as in the (b) paragraphs (4) and (5), Fisheries Act 2020 (see section49 of that Act);”. do not apply in relation to sea fish caught by a foreign fishing (3) For article 4 substitute— boat in waters lying outside British fishery limits. “Exemptions (7) The prohibition imposed by section 1(2) of the Act, as read 4 The prohibitions imposed by section 127(1) of the with paragraph (2), does not apply in relation to sea fish caught Act, as read with Article 3 and the Schedule, do by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery not apply in relation to sea-fish caught by a limits.” foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery limits.” (5) In article 5 (prescribed minimum size for landing spider crabs in Scotland), for paragraph (2) substitute— The Conservation of Scallops Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2008 34 (1) The Conservation of Scallops Regulations (Northern (2) The prohibition imposed by section 1(1) of the Act, as read Ireland) 2008 (S.R. (N.I.) 2008 No. 430) are amended as follows. with paragraph (1), does not apply in relation to sea fish caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery (2) In regulation 2 (interpretation), omit the definition of limits.” “British fishing boat”. (6) In article 6 (prescribed minimum size for landing green (3) In regulation 3 (prohibition of fishing and fishing methods) crabs in the Orkney Islands), for paragraph (2) substitute— in paragraphs (3), (4), (7)(b) and (8), omit “British”. (2) The prohibition imposed by section 1(1) of the Act, as read (4) In regulation 4 (exemptions), omit paragraph (a). with paragraph (1), does not apply in relation to sea fish caught The Edible Crabs (Conservation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British fishery 2020 limits.” 35 (1) The Edible Crabs (Conservation) Regulations (7) In article 7 (prohibitions on landing, sale, exposure or offer (Northern Ireland) 2020 (S.R. (N.I.) 2020 No. 152) are amended for sale or possession, or carriage of lobsters)— as follows. (a) in paragraph (10), after “Scottish zone” insert “, or a (2) In regulation 2 (interpretation), for the definition of foreign fishing boat within the Scottish zone,”; “foreign fishing boat” substitute— (b) for paragraphs (12) and (13) substitute— “foreign fishing boat” has the same meaning as in the (12) The prohibitions imposed by— Fisheries Act 2020 (see section49 of that Act);”. (a) section 1(1) of the Act, as read with paragraphs (1) to (3) For regulation 5 (exemptions) substitute— (7), and “Exemptions (b) paragraph (10), 5 (1) The obligations and prohibitions imposed by regulations 3 and 4 do not apply to any person do not apply in relation to sea fish caught by a foreign fishing operating under the authority of, and in accordance boat in waters lying outside British fishery limits. with a permit granted under, section 14 of the Act. (13) The prohibition imposed by section 1(2) of the Act, as (2) The obligations and prohibitions imposed by read with paragraph (8), does not apply in relation to sea fish regulations 3 and 4 do not apply in relation to caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British sea-fish caught by a foreign fishing boat in waters fishery limits.” lying outside British fishery limits.” The Sea Fish (Prohibited Methods of Fishing) (Firth of Clyde) The Edible Crabs (Undersized) Order (Northern Ireland) 2020 Order 2019 36 (1) The Edible Crabs (Undersized) Order (Northern 30 (1) The Sea Fish (Prohibited Methods of Fishing) (Firth of Ireland) 2020 (S.R. (N.I.) 2020 No. 153) is amended as follows. Clyde) Order 2019 (S.S.I. 2019/419) is amended as follows. (2) In article 2 (interpretation), for the definition of “foreign (2) In article 2 (interpretation), in paragraph (1), omit the fishing boat” substitute— definition of “British fishing boat”. “foreign fishing boat” has the same meaning as in the (3) In article 3 (prohibited methods of fishing), in paragraphs (1), Fisheries Act 2020 (see section49 of that Act);”. (2) and (3), omit “British”. (3) For article 4 (exemptions) substitute— “Exemptions NORTHERN IRELAND 4 (1) The prohibition imposed by section 127(1) of the The Inshore Fishing (Prohibition of Fishing and Fishing Methods) Act, as read with Article 3 and the Schedule, does Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1993 not apply to any person operating under the 327 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 328

authority of, and in accordance with a permit Green, Kate Murray, Ian granted under, section 14 of the Act. Greenwood, Margaret Murray, James (2) The prohibition imposed by section 127(1) of the Griffith, Nia Nandy, Lisa Act, as read with Article 3 and the Schedule, does Gwynne, Andrew Nichols, Charlotte not apply in relation to sea-fish caught by a Haigh, Louise Norris, Alex foreign fishing boat in waters lying outside British Hamilton, Fabian Olney, Sarah fishery limits.”’.—(Victoria Prentis.) Hardy, Emma Onwurah, Chi This amendment inserts into Schedule 2 amendments of Scottish Harman, rh Ms Harriet Oppong-Asare, Abena and Northern Ireland instruments so as to bring foreign fishing Harris, Carolyn Osamor, Kate boats within the regulation of those instruments. Hayes, Helen Osborne, Kate Healey, rh John Owatemi, Taiwo Hendrick, Sir Mark Owen, Sarah Schedule 3 Hill, Mike Peacock, Stephanie Hillier, Meg Perkins, Mr Toby SEA FISHING LICENCES: FURTHER PROVISION Hobhouse, Wera Phillips, Jess Amendment proposed: 3, page 53, line 24, at end Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Pollard, Luke insert— Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Powell, Lucy “Prohibition on fishing boats greater than 100 metres in length in Hollern, Kate Qureshi, Yasmin English waters Hopkins, Rachel Rayner, Angela 1A (1) Any sea fishing licence issued by the sea fish licensing Howarth, rh Sir George Rees, Christina authority for England must include a condition prohibiting the Huq, Dr Rupa Reeves, Ellie use of a fishing boat greater than 100 metres in length in any of Jardine, Christine Reeves, Rachel the protected areas specified in subsection (2). Jarvis, Dan Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Johnson, Dame Diana Rimmer, Ms Marie (2) The protected areas to which the prohibition in subsection (1) Johnson, Kim Robinson, Gavin applies are marine conservation zones and marine protected areas as defined in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Jones, Darren Rodda, Matt Jones, Gerald Russell-Moyle, Lloyd (3) The Secretary of State may by regulations add to the list of Jones, rh Mr Kevan Shah, Naz protected areas in subsection (2).”.—(Luke Pollard.) Jones, Ruth Sharma, Mr Virendra This amendment would include in the sea fishing licence conditions Jones, Sarah Sheerman, Mr Barry a prohibition on using a fishing boat longer than 100 metres in Kane, Mike Siddiq, Tulip protected areas in English waters. Keeley, Barbara Slaughter, Andy Question put, That the amendment be made. Kendall, Liz Smith, Cat The House divided: Ayes 197, Noes 331. Khan, Afzal Smith, Nick Kinnock, Stephen Smyth, Karin Division No. 135] [9.48 pm Kyle, Peter Sobel, Alex Lammy, rh Mr David Spellar, rh John AYES Lavery, Ian Stevens, Jo Abbott, rh Ms Diane Creasy, Stella Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Stone, Jamie Abrahams, Debbie Cruddas, Jon Lewis, Clive Streeting, Wes Ali, Rushanara Cryer, John Lloyd, Tony Stringer, Graham Ali, Tahir Cummins, Judith Long Bailey, Rebecca Sultana, Zarah Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cunningham, Alex Lucas, Caroline Tami, rh Mark Amesbury, Mike Daby, Janet Lynch, Holly Tarry, Sam Anderson, Fleur Davey, rh Ed Madders, Justin Thomas-Symonds, Nick Antoniazzi, Tonia David, Wayne Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thornberry, rh Emily Barker, Paula Davies-Jones, Alex Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Beckett, rh Margaret De Cordova, Marsha Malhotra, Seema Turner, Karl Begum, Apsana Debbonaire, Thangam Maskell, Rachael Twigg, Derek Betts, Mr Clive Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Matheson, Christian Twist, Liz Blake, Olivia Dodds, Anneliese McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, rh Valerie Brennan, Kevin Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. McDonald, Andy Webbe, Claudia Brown, Ms Lyn Doughty, Stephen McDonnell, rh John West, Catherine Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dowd, Peter McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whitehead, Dr Alan Bryant, Chris Dromey, Jack McGinn, Conor Whitley, Mick Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Ms Angela McGovern, Alison Whittome, Nadia Burgon, Richard Eagle, Maria McKinnell, Catherine Wilson, Munira Butler, Dawn Efford, Clive McMahon, Jim Wilson, rh Sammy Byrne, Ian Elliott, Julie McMorrin, Anna Winter, Beth Byrne, rh Liam Elmore, Chris Mearns, Ian Yasin, Mohammad Cadbury, Ruth Eshalomi, Florence Mishra, Navendu Zeichner, Daniel Campbell, rh Sir Alan Esterson, Bill Moran, Layla Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Tellers for the Ayes: Chamberlain, Wendy Farron, Tim Morgan, Stephen Jeff Smith and Champion, Sarah Farry, Stephen Morris, Grahame Matt Western Charalambous, Bambos Fletcher, Colleen Clark, Feryal Fovargue, Yvonne NOES Cooper, Daisy Foxcroft, Vicky Adams, Nigel Aiken, Nickie Cooper, Rosie Foy, Mary Kelly Afolami, Bim Aldous, Peter Cooper, rh Yvette Furniss, Gill Afriyie, Adam Allan, Lucy Corbyn, rh Jeremy Gardiner, Barry Coyle, Neil Glindon, Mary Ahmad Khan, Imran Amess, Sir David 329 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 330

Anderson, Lee Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Robbie Anderson, Stuart Davison, Dehenna Hoare, Simon Mordaunt, rh Penny Andrew, Stuart Dinenage, Caroline Holden, Mr Richard Morris, Anne Marie Ansell, Caroline Dines, Miss Sarah Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, David Argar, Edward Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, James Atherton, Sarah Docherty, Leo Holloway, Adam Morrissey, Joy Atkins, Victoria Donelan, Michelle Holmes, Paul Morton, Wendy Bacon, Gareth Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, John Mullan, Dr Kieran Bacon, Mr Richard Double, Steve Howell, Paul Mumby-Croft, Holly Badenoch, Kemi Dowden, rh Oliver Huddleston, Nigel Murray, Mrs Sheryll Bailey, Shaun Doyle-Price, Jackie Hudson, Dr Neil Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Baillie, Siobhan Drax, Richard Hughes, Eddie Neill, Sir Robert Baker, Duncan Duddridge, James Hunt, Jane Nici, Lia Baker, Mr Steve Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Nokes, rh Caroline Baldwin, Harriett Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Norman, rh Jesse Barclay, rh Steve Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister O’Brien, Neil Baron, Mr John Edwards, Ruth Javid, rh Sajid Offord, Dr Matthew Baynes, Simon Ellis, rh Michael Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Opperman, Guy Bell, Aaron Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkin, Sir Bernard Paisley, Ian Benton, Scott Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkinson, Mark Parish, Neil Beresford, Sir Paul Eustice, rh George Jenkyns, Andrea Paterson, rh Mr Owen Berry, rh Jake Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Bhatti, Saqib Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Penning, rh Sir Mike Blackman, Bob Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Blunt, Crispin Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Fell, Simon Jones, Fay Philp, Chris Bowie, Andrew Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher Bradley, Ben Fletcher, Mark Jupp, Simon Poulter, Dr Dan Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Nick Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca Brady, Sir Graham Ford, Vicky Kearns, Alicia Prentis, Victoria Braverman, rh Suella Foster, Kevin Keegan, Gillian Pursglove, Tom Brereton, Jack Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Quin, Jeremy Bridgen, Andrew Frazer, Lucy Knight, Julian Quince, Will Brine, Steve Freer, Mike Kruger, Danny Randall, Tom Bristow, Paul Fuller, Richard Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Redwood, rh John Britcliffe, Sara Fysh, Mr Marcus Lamont, John Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Brokenshire, rh James Gale, rh Sir Roger Largan, Robert Richards, Nicola Browne, Anthony Garnier, Mark Leadsom, rh Andrea Richardson, Angela Bruce, Fiona Ghani, Ms Nusrat Leigh, rh Sir Edward Roberts, Rob Buchan, Felicity Gibb, rh Nick Levy, Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Burghart, Alex Gibson, Peter Lewer, Andrew Robinson, Mary Burns, rh Conor Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Butler, Rob Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ross, Douglas Cairns, rh Alun Girvan, Paul Lockhart, Carla Rowley, Lee Carter, Andy Glen, John Loder, Chris Russell, Dean Cartlidge, James Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Rutley, David Cash, Sir William Graham, Richard Longhi, Marco Sambrook, Gary Cates, Miriam Grant, Mrs Helen Lopez, Julia Saxby, Selaine Caulfield, Maria Gray, James Lopresti, Jack Scully, Paul Chalk, Alex Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Seely, Bob Chishti, Rehman Green, Chris Mackinlay, Craig Selous, Andrew Churchill, Jo Green, rh Damian Mackrory, Cherilyn Shannon, Jim Clarke, Mr Simon Griffith, Andrew Maclean, Rachel Sharma, rh Alok Clarke, Theo Griffiths, Kate Mak, Alan Shelbrooke, rh Alec Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grundy, James Malthouse, Kit Simmonds, David Clarkson, Chris Gullis, Jonathan Mangnall, Anthony Skidmore, rh Chris Cleverly, rh James Halfon, rh Robert Mann, Scott Smith, Chloe Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hall, Luke Marson, Julie Smith, Greg Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hammond, Stephen Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Henry Colburn, Elliot Hands, rh Greg Maynard, Paul Smith, rh Julian Collins, Damian Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Smith, Royston Costa, Alberto Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl Solloway, Amanda Courts, Robert Harrison, Trudy Menzies, Mark Spencer, Dr Ben Coutinho, Claire Hart, Sally-Ann Mercer, Johnny Spencer, rh Mark Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon Merriman, Huw Stafford, Alexander Crosbie, Virginia Hayes, rh Sir John Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Heald, rh Sir Oliver Millar, Robin Stevenson, Jane Daly, James Heappey, James Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, John Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Davies, Gareth Henderson, Gordon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Davies, Dr James Henry, Darren Mohindra, Mr Gagan Streeter, Sir Gary Davies, Mims Higginbotham, Antony Moore, Damien Stride, rh Mel 331 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 332

Stuart, Graham Wallis, Dr Jamie This amendment clarifies the procedure in the Scottish Parliament Sturdy, Julian Warman, Matt applicable to certain Scottish Statutory Instruments made by the Sunderland, James Watling, Giles Scottish Ministers under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Webb, Suzanne Government amendment 29, page 67, line 19, in Syms, Sir Robert Whately, Helen schedule 4, after “zone”insert “only”—(Victoria Prentis.) Thomas, Derek Wheeler, Mrs Heather Timpson, Edward Whittaker, Craig This technical amendment removes an ambiguity as to the words Tolhurst, Kelly Whittingdale, rh Mr John revoked by paragraph 18(2)(a). Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill Tracey, Craig Wild, James Schedule 8 Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Williams, Craig POWERS TO MAKE FURTHER PROVISION: DEVOLVED Tugendhat, Tom Williamson, rh Gavin AUTHORITIES Vara, Mr Shailesh Wood, Mike Vickers, Martin Young, Jacob Amendments made: Government amendment 30, page 86, Vickers, Matt Zahawi, Nadhim leave out lines 38 to 42 Villiers, rh Theresa Tellers for the Noes: This amendment removes the definition of “fishery products” from Wakeford, Christian Maggie Throup and paragraph 2 of Schedule 8. The definition is inserted into clause 49 Walker, Mr Robin Michael Tomlinson by a separate amendment. The effect is that the definition applies generally in the Bill. The definition is used in NC8. Question accordingly negatived. Government amendment 31, page 88, line 15, leave out from “State” to “under” in line 16 and insert The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their “, or of any of the sea fish licensing authorities,” proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. The purpose of paragraph 4(4) of this Schedule is to prevent the regulation-making powers in paragraphs 1 and 3 from being used to 10.3 pm modify the licensing functions conferred by the Bill. This Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, this day). amendment ensures that paragraph 4(4) protects the functions of The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions all the sea fish licensing authorities. necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Government amendment 32, page 90, leave out at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). lines 24 to 28 This amendment removes the definition of “fishery products” from Schedule 3 paragraph 7 of Schedule 8. The definition is inserted into clause 49 by a separate amendment. The effect is that the definition applies SEA FISHING LICENCES: FURTHER PROVISION generally in the Bill. The definition is used in NC8. Amendments made: Government amendment 25, Government amendment 33, page 92, line 10, leave page 55, line 17, at end insert— out from “State” to “under” in line 11 and insert ‘(4) This paragraph does not confer power on a sea fish “, or of any of the sea fish licensing authorities,” licensing authority to make arrangements for a licensing function to be exercised on its behalf by another sea fish licensing The purpose of paragraph 9(5) of this Schedule is to prevent the authority (see instead section (Agency arrangements between sea regulation-making powers in paragraphs 6 and 8 from being used to fish licensing authorities)(agency arrangements between sea fish modify the licensing functions conferred by the Bill. This licensing authorities)).” amendment ensures that paragraph 9(5) protects the functions of all the sea fish licensing authorities. This amendment clarifies the relationship between the power in paragraph 6 of Schedule 3 to arrange for licensing functions to be Government amendment 34, page 94, leave out exercised by an agent, and the powers in NC8 under which sea fish lines 17 to 21 licensing authorities are able to make agency arrangements with This amendment removes the definition of “fishery products” from each other. paragraph 12 of Schedule 8. The definition is inserted into Government amendment 26, page 57, line 10, leave clause 49 by a separate amendment. The effect is that the definition out sub-paragraph (1) applies generally in the Bill. The definition is used in NC8. This amendment removes the definition of “sea fish licensing Government amendment 35, page 95, line 41, leave authority” from Schedule 3. The definition is inserted into clause out from “State” to “under” in line 42 and insert 49 by a separate amendment. The effect is that the definition “, or of any of the sea fish licensing authorities,” .—(Victoria applies generally in the Bill. The definition is used in NC8. Prentis.) Government amendment 27, page 57, line 17, leave The purpose of paragraph 14(4) of this Schedule is to prevent the out paragraph (a) and insert— regulation-making powers in paragraphs 11 and 13 from being used (a) section 15 or 17,”.—(Victoria Prentis.) to modify the licensing functions conferred by the Bill. This This amendment is consequential on NC9 and has the effect that amendment ensures that paragraph 14(4) protects the functions of the power of the Scottish Ministers to maintain a list of fishing all the sea fish licensing authorities. boats that they regulate even if they are also regulated by the Faroe Islands authorities is not a power that counts as a “licensing Schedule 10 function” under Schedule 3. AMENDMENTS OF THE MARINE AND COASTAL ACCESS Schedule 4 ACT 2009 Amendments made: Government amendment 37, ACCESS AND LICENSING: MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL page 109, line 20, at end insert— AMENDMENTS Amendments made: Government amendment 28, page 61, ‘(10A) An order under this section that contains provision for the charging of fees for permits (including provision changing line 41, at end insert— the level of fees) is subject to the affirmative procedure (see (d) in subsection (11)(b), after “approval”, in the second Part 2 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) place it occurs, insert “or annulment”.” Act 2010) (asp 10)).” 333 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 334

This amendment provides for the affirmative procedure to apply to (a) provision prohibiting or restricting such exploitation in an order made by the Scottish Ministers under new section 137A of specified areas or during specified periods; the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 (orders relating to (b) provision limiting the amount of sea fisheries resources exploitation of sea fisheries resources: Scottish offshore region) if a person or vessel may take in a specified period; the order makes provision about the charging of fees for permits. (c) provision limiting the amount of time a person or Government amendment 38, page 109, line 21, leave vessel may spend fishing for or taking sea fisheries out “An” and insert “Any other” resources in a specified period. This amendment is consequential on the amendment that provides (6) Head 2 is provision prohibiting or restricting the for the affirmative procedure to apply to an order made by the exploitation of sea fisheries resources without a permit issued by Scottish Ministers under new section 137A of the Marine and the Department, including— Coastal Access Act 2009 (orders relating to exploitation of sea (a) provision for the charging of fees for permits; fisheries resources: Scottish offshore region) if the order makes provision about the charging of fees for permits. (b) provision enabling conditions to be attached to a permit; Government amendment 39, page 109, leave out lines 22 and 23 and insert (c) provision enabling the Department to limit the number of permits issued by it. “that Part of that Act).” (7) Head 3 is— This amendment is consequential on the amendment that provides for the affirmative procedure to apply to an order made by the (a) provision prohibiting or restricting the use of vessels of Scottish Ministers under new section 137A of the Marine and specified descriptions; Coastal Access Act 2009 (orders relating to exploitation of sea (b) provision prohibiting or restricting any method of fisheries resources: Scottish offshore region) if the order makes exploiting sea fisheries resources; provision about the charging of fees for permits. (c) provision prohibiting or restricting the possession, use, Government amendment 40, page 110, line 7, at end retention on board, storage or transportation of insert— specified items, or items of a specified description, that are used in the exploitation of sea fisheries ‘(5) Where in reliance on subsection (4)(a) the Scottish resources; Ministers do not comply with subsection (1) before making an order under section 137A, that order— (d) provision for determining whether such items are items of a specified description. (a) comes into force on a date specified in the order, and (b) remains in force (unless revoked) for such period, not (8) An order under this section may be made— exceeding 12 months, as is specified in the order. (a) subject to specified exceptions or conditions; (6) The Scottish Ministers may by further order extend the (b) so as to cease to have effect after a specified period. period for which an order to which subsection (5) applies is in (9) An order under this section may make different provision force for a period not exceeding 12 months.” for different cases, including in particular— This amendment limits the time for which an order under new (a) different times of the year, section 137A (orders relating to exploitation of sea fisheries resources: Scottish offshore region) can remain in force if made (b) different means or methods of carrying out an activity, without consultation. and Government amendment 41, page 111, line 11, at (c) different descriptions of sea fisheries resources. end insert— (10) In this section “specified” means specified in the order. ‘(4) An order to which this section applies may be amended or (11) In this section, and in sections 137F to 137H, “the Department” revoked by a further order.”” means the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural This amendment ensures that the powers of the Scottish Ministers Affairs in Northern Ireland. to make orders under new section 137A and 137C of the Marine 137F Consultation etc regarding orders under section and Coastal Access Act 2009 can be exercised so as to amend or 137E revoke previous orders. (1) Before making an order under section 137E the Department Government amendment 42, page 111, line 11, at must— end insert— (a) consult the Secretary of State, Orders for marine conservation: Northern Ireland (b) if the order would or might affect the exploitation of offshore region sea fisheries resources in the English offshore region, 137E Orders relating to exploitation of sea fisheries consult the MMO, resources: Northern Ireland offshore region (c) if the order would or might affect the exploitation of (1) The Department may make one or more orders relating to sea fisheries resources in the Scottish offshore region, the exploitation of sea fisheries resources in the Northern Ireland consult the Scottish Ministers, offshore region for the purposes of conserving— (d) if the order would or might affect the exploitation of (a) marine flora or fauna, sea fisheries resources in the Welsh offshore region, (b) marine habitats or types of marine habitat, or consult the Welsh Ministers, and (c) features of geological or geomorphological interest. (e) consult any other person whom they think fit to (2) An order under this section may be made so as to apply to consult. any area in the Northern Ireland offshore region. (2) The Department must publish notice of the making of an (3) An order under this section must specify the flora or fauna, order under section 137E. habitat or type of habitat or features for the conservation of (3) The notice under subsection (2) must— which it is made. (a) be published in such manner as the Department think (4) The provision that may be made by an order under this is most likely to bring the order to the attention of section includes, in particular, provision falling within any of the any persons who are likely to be affected by the Heads set out in subsections (5) to (7). making of it; (5) Head 1 is provision prohibiting or restricting the exploitation (b) give an address at which a copy of the order may be of sea fisheries resources, including— inspected. 335 Fisheries Bill [Lords]13 OCTOBER 2020 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 336

(4) Where the Department think that there is an urgent need to ‘(1A) In the heading, omit “by Secretary of State or Welsh make an order under section 137E to protect the Northern Ministers”.” Ireland offshore region— This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will (a) subsection (1) does not apply, insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal (b) the notice under subsection (2) must also state that any Access Act 2009. person affected by the making of the order may make Government amendment 44, page 111, line 21, at representations to the Department. end insert— (5) Where in reliance on subsection (4)(a) the Department ‘(2B) This section also applies where the Department of does not comply with subsection (1) before making an order Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland under section 137A, that order— has the function of — (a) comes into force on a date specified in the order, and (a) deciding whether to make an order under section 137E; (b) remains in force (unless revoked) for such period, not (b) deciding whether to make an order under section exceeding 12 months, as is specified in the order. 137G.”” (10) The Department may by further order extend the period This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will for which an order to which subsection (5) applies is in force for insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal a period not exceeding 6 months.” Access Act 2009. 137G Interim orders made by the Department Government amendment 45, page 111, line 22, leave (1) The Department may make one or more orders relating to out “or Scottish Ministers” and insert “, the Scottish the exploitation of sea fisheries resources in the Northern Ireland Ministers or the Department of Agriculture, Environment offshore region for the purpose of protecting any feature in any and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland” area in that region if the Department thinks— An interim order under this section must contain a description of the boundaries This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will of the area to which it applies (which must be no greater than is insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal necessary for the purpose of protecting the feature in question). Access Act 2009. (a) that the appropriate authority should consider whether Government amendment 46, page 111, line 28, after to designate the area as an MCZ, and “134A,” insert “134B,” (b) that there is an urgent need to protect the feature. This amendment makes contravention of an orders under new (2) Subsections (4) to (10) of section 137E apply to an interim section 134B of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 (exploitation order under this section. of sea fisheries resources: Welsh offshore region) an offence. (3) An interim order under this section— Government amendment 47, page 111, line 29, leave (a) comes into force on a date specified in the order, and out “or 137C” and insert “, 137C, 137E or 137G” (b) remains in force (unless revoked) for such period, not This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will exceeding 12 months, as is specified in the order. insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. (4) The Department may by further order extend the period for which the interim order is in force for a period not exceeding Government amendment 48, page 112, line 5, leave 6 months. out “or 137A(6)” and insert “, 137A(6) or 137E(6)” (5) The Department must publish notice of the making of an This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will interim order under this section. insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. (6) The notice under subsection (6) must— Government amendment 49, page 112, line 21, at (a) be published in such manner as the Department think is most likely to bring the order to the attention of end insert— any persons who are likely to be affected by the 27A In section 189 (power of Welsh Ministers in relation to making of it; fisheries in Wales)— (b) give an address at which a copy of the order may be (a) in subsection (1), for “Subject to subsection (2), the” inspected; substitute “The”; (c) state that any person affected by the making of the (b) omit subsection (2).” order may make representations to the Department. This amendment allows the Welsh Ministers to use the power to (7) The Department must keep under review the need for an make provision by order under section 189 of the Marine and interim order under this section to remain in force. Coastal Access Act 2009 whether or not they could make that provision under another power. (8) In this section “feature” means any flora, fauna, habitat or feature which could be a protected feature if the area in question Government amendment 50, page 112, line 34, leave were designated as an MCZ. out “or 137C” and insert “, 137C, 137E or 137G” 137H Further provision as to orders made under section This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will 137E or 137G insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal (1) This section applies to any order made under section 137E Access Act 2009. or 137G. Government amendment 51, page 113, line 14, at (2) The Department must send a copy of any order to which end insert— this section applies to the Secretary of State and to any person ‘(15) Where the fisheries exploitation legislation consists of an consulted under section 137F(2). order made under section 137E or 137G of this Act (orders relating to Northern Ireland offshore region), this section applies (3) The Department must— as if— (a) make a copy of any order to which this section applies (a) references to a marine enforcement officer included a available for inspection at such place as the Department person appointed as such by the Department of thinks fit for that purpose at all reasonable hours Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in without payment; Northern Ireland, (b) provide a copy of any such order to any person who (b) for the purposes of subsection (3)(a), the relevant requests one.”” enforcement area were Northern Ireland, the Northern Government amendment 43, page 111, line 12, at Ireland inshore region and the Northern Ireland offshore end insert— region, and 337 Fisheries Bill [Lords] 13 OCTOBER 2020 338

(c) subsections (3)(c) and (d) and (4) to (6) were “(5) Any expression used, and not defined, in this Order that is omitted.”” used in the Control Regulation or Regulation 404/2011, or that is This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will used in both of those Regulations, has the meaning it has in the insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal Regulation or Regulations in which it is used.”; Access Act 2009. (c) in article 6, omit paragraph (2); Government amendment 52, page 113, line 17, leave (d) in Schedule 2, in the table, omit the entries relating to out “or 137C” and insert “, 137C, 137E or 137G” Regulation 2017/2403. (2) In the Sea Fishing (EU Control Measures) (Scotland) This amendment is consequential on the amendment which will Order 2015 (S.S.I. 2015/320) (as amended by the Exit insert new sections 137E and 137G into the Marine and Coastal Regulations), in article 2(1)— Access Act 2009. (a) omit the definition of “Regulation 2017/2403”; Government amendment 53, page 113, line 19, leave out paragraph 30 and insert— (b) in the definition of “third country control measure”— (i) omit “Regulation 2017/2403 or”; 30 (1) Section 316 (regulations and orders) is amended as (ii) omit paragraph (a). follows. (3) In this paragraph “the Exit Regulations” means the (2) In subsection (4)(a)— Fisheries (EU Exit) (Scotland) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 (a) for “137” substitute “137G”; (S.S.I. 2019/24).” .—(Victoria Prentis.) (b) after “MCZs” insert “etc”. This amendment makes amendments of certain Scottish Statutory (3) In subsection (6), before paragraph (a) insert— Instruments which are consequential on the revocation of retained “(za) any order under section 137E that contains provision EU law already provided for in Schedule 11 of the Bill. for the charging of fees for permits (including Bill read the Third time and passed, with amendments. provision changing the levels of fees),”.” —(Victoria Prentis.) Business without Debate This amendment provides that an order made by the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland under new sections 137E of the Marine and Coastal Access Act DELEGATED LEGISLATION 2009 is subject to the affirmative procedure if it includes provision about the charging of fees. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Schedule 11 PUBLIC HEALTH That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face RETAINED DIRECT EU LEGISLATION: MINOR AND Coverings in a Relevant Place and on Public Transport) (England) CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations (S.I., 2020, No. 1026), dated Amendments made: Government amendment 54, 23 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 23 September, be approved. page 113, line 39, at end insert “, and —(David T. C. Davies.) (c) paragraph 15 makes consequential amendments.” Question agreed to. This amendment is consequential on the amendment inserting a Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing new paragraph 15 in Schedule 11 of the Bill. Order No. 118(6)), Government amendment 55, page 122, line 34, at That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face end insert— Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1028), dated 23 September “Council Regulation (EU) 2020/123 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 24 September, 13A In Council Regulation (EU) 2020/123 fixing for 2020 the be approved.—( David T. C. Davies.) fishing opportunities for certain fish stocks and groups of fish Question agreed to. stocks, applicable in Union waters and, for Union fishing vessels, in certain non-Union waters, in Article 14 (remedial measures for Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing cod in the North Sea), omit paragraphs 2 to 4.” Order No. 118(6)), This amendment repeals provisions of retained EU law concerned That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face with the catching of cod in the North Sea. This will allow the Coverings in a Relevant Place and on Public Transport) United Kingdom to adopt its own measures in relation to cod in the (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations (S.I., 2020, No. North Sea. 1021), dated 22 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 September, be approved.—( David T. C. Government amendment 56, page 123, line 19, at Davies.) end insert— Question agreed to. “Consequential amendments 15 (1) In the Sea Fishing (EU Recording and Reporting Requirements) (Scotland) Order 2010 (S.S.I. 2010/334) (as GENERAL SYNOD (REMOTE MEETINGS) amended by the Exit Regulations)— (TEMPORARY STANDING ORDERS) MEASURE (a) in article 2, in paragraph (1)— Ordered, (i) omit the definition of “Regulation 2017/2403”; That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church (ii) in the definition of “third country recording and of England, entitled General Synod (Remote Meetings) reporting requirement” omit paragraph (ii) (and (Temporary Standing Orders) Measure (HC 879), be referred to the “or” before it); a Delegated Legislation Committee. —( David T. C. Davies.) (b) in that article, for paragraph (5) substitute— 339 13 OCTOBER 2020 340

Women’s Rugby: Government Support Fay Jones: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I will go on to talk about some of those things later in my Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House speech, but if we can make just one point here this do now adjourn.—(David T.C. Davies.) evening, it is that more women need to think of ways to prioritise sport and fitness for themselves, because the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): untold benefits to their mental and physical health What better way to adjourn than by celebrating the really cannot be overestimated. She and I do not agree Minister’s50th birthday by discussing Government support on everything, but we certainly agree on that. for women’s rugby? Perhaps it is the love of the game of rugby that 10.5 pm motivates the members of the Welsh national team to compete unpaid against countries such as England, Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): This is which has offered 28 full-time 15-a-side contracts to well past my bedtime, but I know that this debate will be women players since January last year. With that in well worth the wait. Before I go on, however, I should mind, I welcome the Welsh Rugby Union’s recent like to wish the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, announcement of its intention to make the Welsh women’s Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member rugby squad semi or fully professional in the future. for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), a very happy That is not only a recognition of the hard work that birthday. I am sure he cannot think of a better way to these sportswomen put in but an investment in the spend his 50th birthday than talking about women’s future of the elite women’s game in Wales, and I hope to rugby with us. I wish him many happy returns. see it come to fruition very soon. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am grateful to you for granting me this Adjournment debate on a subject very Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the close to my heart. Being from Wales and choosing to hon. Lady on securing the debate; I spoke to her beforehand talk about rugby in my first Adjournment debate is, I and sought her permission to make this intervention. admit, something of a cliché, but across the world, Ulster Rugby has, in many ways, led in this area. The more than 2.7 million women are registered rugby players, Ulster Rugby team wear the same shirts as the Ulster making up over a third of all rugby players in members’ women’s rugby team, so whenever we see that shirt, we unions, and some time ago I was proud to be one of see not just a man but a woman. Does she agree that their number. I took up playing women’s rugby when that decision gives equality and recognises the phenomenal I was at university, and I proudly played tighthead prop job that the ladies do in representing Ulster? Their for King’s College for four years. In my third year, I was thrilling matches are every bit as worthy of the shirt as a fortunate enough to spend a year teaching English in men’s game, and the enjoyment is equal. France and so, to make friends, I joined the Gourdon Fay Jones: I feel honoured to have been intervened on rugby team, again playing in the women’s first team. I by the hon. Gentleman in my first Adjournment debate—I thoroughly enjoyed every moment playing rugby, even have truly arrived in this House. I could not agree with the occasional bruise and graze, and especially the social him more. Anything that raises the visibility of the aspect of the team. women’s game and puts it on a par with the men’s game I found sport at a relatively young age when my knees is welcome, and I congratulate Ulster Rugby on that step. did not creak and I could bounce back after 80 minutes The elite and grassroots of women’s rugby in Wales of full contact rugby, but taking up sport at any age is a are closely interlinked, and I pay tribute to the rugby life-changing experience. The transformative lifelong clubs in my constituency who demonstrate that. Rebekah rewards go far beyond health and fitness. I spoke recently O’Loughlin had her first cap as a Gwernyfed Ladies to a former Welsh women’s rugby international and player, a fierce women’s team in Talgarth near Brecon in current referee, and she was clear that she would not be my constituency. Wales captain Carys Phillips even who she is without rugby. She said that rugby had takes the time to act as an ambassador for Red Kites, a provided her with the confidence, skills and work ethic female rugby hub for ages six to 18, also based in my to be successful not just in sports but in her work and constituency. So-called hubs such as Red Kites, which personal life. Above all, playing rugby provided her provide the opportunity for girls-only rugby, have seen with a sense of community, no matter where life took an explosion of interest and participation. I spoke with her. the Red Kites female hub lead, and they stressed that the game is open to all, and those of all abilities can Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): Will the hon. Lady benefit from the family, team spirit and life skills that give way? come from playing the game. Red Kites is just one of 32 hubs around Wales. Fay Jones: To a Welsh international? Absolutely! Tonia Antoniazzi: I thank the hon. Lady for her Tonia Antoniazzi: I congratulate the hon. Lady on generosity in giving way. Because of local lockdowns, securing this Adjournment debate on a topic that is also Welsh Rugby Union training had stopped. I visited close to my heart, particularly because she is talking West Swansea Hawks in Gowerton in my constituency about wellbeing in the community of women’s rugby, and saw its fantastic set-up for covid-regulated training which extends to France. I also played my rugby for the sessions. I pay tribute to all the women’s rugby hubs women’s team at Benetton in Treviso during my year throughout Wales and the United Kingdom, who are abroad, so obviously there are many links with rugby. doing a great job in keeping people safe. Does she agree that we need to ensure that the confidence that all sport gives women continues, particularly during Fay Jones: Again, the hon. Lady is absolutely right, the pandemic, and that women are encouraged to enjoy and I congratulate all those rugby clubs who have sport, do more sport and exercise more? worked incredibly hard to consider social distancing 341 Women’s Rugby: Government Support13 OCTOBER 2020 Women’s Rugby: Government Support 342 measures. It is a contact sport, and it is very much to be could not prioritise doing exercise during the lockdown celebrated that we are getting community rugby back as they had too much to do for others. Some 25% of up and running again. women became worried that getting back into the habit The number of girls playing rugby in the 95 schools of exercise would be hard, which I can say from personal and colleges with full-time rugby hub officers has gone experience is very true. As organised sport and exercise from fewer than 200 to almost 10,000 in the space of were put on hold for men and women alike, we saw the just a few years. I can only hope that each and every one loss of events that showcase gender parity in sport, such of those girls enjoys rugby as much as I did. While I am as the Tokyo Olympics and The Hundred cricket the first to admit that rugby is my sport of choice, I am competition. The visibility that these events provide for a firm believer that all sports provide lifelong benefits. women’s elite sport is vital to making women’s sport a Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that women and girls are natural and accepted part of the sporting landscape. It still 20% less likely to participate in team sports than can also have an impact on grassroots participation by men and boys, with many contributing factors to why highlighting to women and girls the possibilities of that is the case. Sport England research has found that what they can do. At the elite level, although some the main reason for this lack of participation is fear— men’s sport has started to return, women’s sport is something that I am sure all women in the House can further behind. The women’s premier 15s rugby was relate to. cancelled because of covid and started back only on 10 October, well after the men’s game, which restarted Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): Does in August. In order for it to start significant changes the hon. Member agree that it is high time that women’s have been made to the game so as to reduce face-to-face rugby teams, such as Coventry Welsh Ladies in my contact time and therefore avoid the expenses required constituency,enjoyed equality of esteem with that afforded for regular covid testing—these changes were not made to men’s games? to the men’s game. Unfortunately,as sport returns,fans will not be returning. Fay Jones: I do not disagree. I think anybody watching Admissions to matches provide a key funding source, the women’s game derives exactly the same amount of particularly for rugby. Without that money, the WRU value and entertainment, and it is a sporting spectacle announced yesterday that its revenue was down from in the same way. the £90 million level in 2019. The Rugby Football The fear identified in Sport England’s research as the Union has predicted potentially losing up to £142 million main barrier to participation is a fear of being unable to and the rugby league union is also expecting losses, with participate, a fear of the judgment of others and, for the cancellation of the first home ashes series since many, a fear of choosing to spend time on themselves 2003. As the rugby unions tighten their belts, I am rather than their families. That fear is in addition to extremely worried that women’s rugby will be the hardest many other factors. For many women rugby players I hit. The RFU has already taken the decision to cut spoke to, there are practical barriers to participation financial support to each of the 10 teams in the premier too, such as not having a club nearby, having to travel 15s by 25%, which means that each club will be receiving long distances to fixtures and, in one club’s case, only just £56,000, a reduction from the £75,000 this season. having two changing rooms, which meant that they At a grassroots level, clubs I have spoken to also have were unable to arrange a fixture at the same time as a serious concerns about the finances of the women’s men’s match was going on. That said, I am pleased to game. Some are worried that because women’s and girls’ hear that over the past decade women’s sport in the UK rugby does not receive the same financial support as the has been on an upward trajectory, and I wish to pay men’s game, they will struggle to restart training and tribute to all those who have brought that about, particularly matches. But it is not all bad news, because in July the the Minister’s predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member WRU committed to providing an additional £600,000 for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), whom we fund to support clubs in Wales. Enabled by the UK look forward to welcoming back to her place in this Government funding of more than £4 billion to cope House very soon. with coronavirus, the Welsh Government have recently Increased resources from international and national announced a £14 million fund for Wales’s sport and bodies, alongside funding from brands, such as Vitality’s leisure sector. Significant support has also been provided sponsorship of netball and Barclays funding of the to clubs by the Be Active Wales Fund, which has also women’s super league, have resulted in the growth of a seen funding awarded to seven bids from rugby union variety of women’s sport. I wholeheartedly endorse which positively target women and girls. I was also campaigns such as This Girl Can, which has seen nearly pleased to see the Department for Digital, Culture, 3 million women get more active, across all sports. The Media and Sport work with Sport England to make up Welsh Rugby Union’s schemes such as rookie rugby and to £195 million of funding available to help the sport rugby fit are very much to be celebrated, as they challenge and physical activity sector through the ongoing coronavirus the perception that rugby is not for girls. This has crisis. The UK Government are also making more than allowed far more women and girls to reap the physical £11 million of Sport England investment in the Rugby and mental benefits of playing. Football League. In May, the Government announced that the RFL would receive a further £16 million cash However, it would not be 2020 if I did not have to injection to safeguard the immediate future of the sport mention the dreaded C word. Coronavirus is threatening for the communities it serves. the momentum generated over the past decade for women’s sport. During the lockdown earlier this year I welcome the investment of up to £10 million in 42% of women, compared with 35% of men, reported a rugby league facilities to help drive the legacy from the drop in activity levels. With a move en masse towards 2021 rugby league world cup, which will, for the first working from home, 32% of women said that they time, see a combined men’s, women’s and wheelchair 343 Women’s Rugby: Government Support13 OCTOBER 2020 Women’s Rugby: Government Support 344

[Fay Jones] My hon. Friend articulated the great progress being made by Welsh women’s rugby, which is no surprise for tournament. The visibility provided by the 2021 rugby such a proud rugby nation. Sport is primarily a devolved league world cup and other future events, such as the matter, although much of what I have to say applies Birmingham Commonwealth games, could really help across the UK. to boost participation in women’srugby.As the organisation It is vital that we maintain our focus on women’s Women In Sport has said, “Given the gap in participation sport and build on the fantastic progress made in recent between women and men, which has widened during years. I pay tribute to those national governing bodies covid, the visibility of women’s sport has never been and competitions that have showcased women’s sport in more important.” their behind-closed-doors programmes over recent months. While I welcome the much-needed funds being made It was great to see the return of the women’s Premier available for sport across the UK, we must fund the 15s on Saturday, for example. change we want to see in the sport. As we recover from Sponsorship and commercial investment are key to covid-19, we should be aiming to increase the participation growing elite sport, so I welcome the recent announcement of women and girls in sport, the accessibility of women’s that Allianz Insurance has agreed a sponsorship deal sport and its visibility. At the very least, we should not with the Rugby Football Union, which will see funds be prioritising men’s sport over women’s. flow to women’s rugby teams. That partnership means the Premier 15s, which is the top-flight women’s domestic Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con): I thank my hon. rugby competition in England, will receive a landmark Friend for raising this issue. A year ago, Wrexham investment to grow women’s and girls’ rugby, but I rugby club set up the Valkyries rugby cluster, which recognise the impact that covid has had on sport and recruits young women from across north-east Wales. It that women’s sport has been hit particularly hard. is vital that we in the House promote the role of women in rugby and get whatever financial support we can. I That is why I met governing bodies, including the appreciate her doing this tonight. RFU, the Rugby Football League and the chief executive officer of the charity Women In Sport, over the summer Fay Jones: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour. to explore the challenges covid has brought and discuss I would be delighted to learn more about rugby in north what more can be done. I am happy to say that there Wales. As far as I am aware, it is more of a south and was a real shared commitment to protecting investment mid-Wales sport, but I would love to see even more in women’s sport and promoting its growth. participation in north Wales, where people seem to be I know covid has had an impact on rugby and the obsessed with the funny-shaped ball, not the proper-shaped Rugby Football Union has had to make difficult decisions, one. with cuts to its workforce and a reduction in its investment Here is my ask to our Governments: to the UK in grassroots development. I want to take this opportunity Government, the Welsh Government, sporting bodies to assure hon. Members that I am personally committed and rugby organisations alike, please ensure that women’s to helping women’s sport to come out of the current sports receive their fair share of this emergency funding crisis stronger than ever, and I am working closely with and that we continue to encourage more women to play the sector to ensure that that happens. As I have said sport. before at this Dispatch Box, and as I have made clear to sporting bodies in receipt of public funding, I expect a When I began playing rugby at university, we were in fair share of that public funding to benefit women’s a tiny minority and were seen as women playing a man’s sport and physical activity. game. That is far from true now, so let us not let all the progress we have seen in recent years be undone. As we have seen in recent months, sports clubs have an impact and reach that goes well beyond sport. During the pandemic, they have proven themselves bedrocks of 10.22 pm their communities, hosting test centres, looking after The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, the vulnerable and organising food deliveries. Hon. Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): I thank Members will be aware of the incredibly challenging my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire circumstances that many of our sports currently face. (Fay Jones) for tabling the debate and those who have My Department continues to work closely with sports, already contributed; many of them are very knowledgeable including both codes of rugby,to understand what support on the subject. It is a genuine pleasure to be talking they might need. about women’s sport—one of my top political priorities In May of this year, rugby league received a £16 million —on my birthday. I can look my daughter in the eye support package from the Government to safeguard the and tell her that this is what I spend my time doing. immediate future of the sport for the communities it It is vital that we continue to strive for greater equality serves. The Government are also supporting the rugby and opportunity in sport. Women’s rugby is a great league with more than £11 million of Sport England example of the benefits that sport and physical activity investment over the 2017 to 2021 period. can bring. It boosts self-esteem, builds resilience, is Women’s sport as a whole has come a long way in empowering and is fun to play. We have seen a number recent years. To choose just two events, the women’s Six of successes in the professional game, with the Red Nations championship and women’s rugby world cup Roses winning the women’s six nations championship are fantastic events that shine a spotlight on brilliant on 15 out of 24 occasions, and winning the grand slam women rugby stars. We are seeing the popularity of 14 times and the triple crown 21, although I appreciate women’s sport continue to grow, with record audiences that my hon. Friend, being a Welsh MP, might not be as attending international and domestic women’s events enthusiastic about that celebration as I am. and watching them on television. 345 Women’s Rugby: Government Support13 OCTOBER 2020 Women’s Rugby: Government Support 346

These events are inspiring more women and girls to The Government have also helped to secure a wide become active. The latest data from Sport England’s range of major sporting events in this country for the Active Lives survey in April this year showed that next few years. The rugby league world cup 2021 will before covid, there were more than 210,000 more active bring additional significant exposure on free-to-air TV. women compared with the previous year, and we want It will also, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon to continue to encourage more women and girls to get and Radnorshire mentioned, be the first time that the active and build on the momentum that initiatives such men’s, women’s and wheelchair tournaments will take as Sport England’sThis Girl Can campaign have generated. place at the same time. It will be a great opportunity to Domestically and globally,female rugby participation is showcase the women’s game and encourage more people growing at a faster rate than male participation. Overall, to get involved. We are continuing to explore a number the RFU has said it is seeing 17% year-on-year growth in of other hosting opportunities across the range of men’s participation; as of June this year,there were 40,000 female and women’s elite and professional sports. registered players in more than 400 clubs, up from just 13,000 in 2012. Furthermore, 90,000 girls are taking To conclude, the past few years have seen fantastic part in rugby through schools, colleges and universities. progress with women’s sport, including rugby, starting The RFU has also developed a range of programmes to to get the profile it deserves. We definitely have our encourage women and girls to take part. Inner Warrior challenges, as my hon. Friend and others have mentioned, is a series of camps, which has benefited from Sport but we want women’ssport to continue to inspire increased England funding, aimed at introducing women to rugby participation in sport and physical activity. Women’s in a fun and accessible way. The programme started in rugby is a hugely important part of that, and we will 2016 and since then 23,000 women have taken part. continue to support and raise the profile of it wherever The All Schools programme was a 2015 rugby world and whenever we can. I once again thank my hon. cup legacy programme, which got 750 more state schools Friend for securing the debate tonight to shine a light playing rugby and has seen 80,000 teenage girls take on women’s rugby and the vital role it plays in our part. O2 Touch is a non-contact form of the game, communities. which has 10,000 registered female players. The women and girls’ game remains a priority for the RFL, too, Question put and agreed to. especially in the lead-up to the rugby league world cup in 2021. Its aim is to use the Women’s Super League to 10.29 pm raise the profile of the game, increase commercial interest and revenue, and drive participation. House adjourned. 347 13 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 348

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Feryal Clark (Enfield North) Chris Elmore as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated (Lab) as their proxy: Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew (Middlesbrough South and Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy East Cleveland) (Con) Chris Clarkson (Heywood Stuart Andrew Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy and Middleton) (Con) North and Stoke Newington) (Lab) Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew and Hythe) (Con) Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Chris Elmore Green) (Lab) Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore Lancashire) (Lab) Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Mark Spencer Dr Rosena Allin-Khan Chris Elmore Jeremy Corbyn (Islington Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Tooting) (Lab) North) (Lab) Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) West Devon) (Con) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) Stuart Andrew Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady (Con) Hamilton East) (SNP) Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore (SNP) (Lab/Co-op) Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Caroline Nokes Billericay) (Con) Aylesford) (Con) Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore South) (Lab) (Lab) Apsana Begum (Poplar and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Geraint Davies (Swansea Dawn Butler Limehouse) (Lab) West) (Lab/Co-op) Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew Dr James Davies (Vale of Stuart Andrew Valley) (Con) Clwyd) (Con) Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady Darwen) (Con) East Falkirk) (SNP) Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady Marsha De Cordova Rachel Hopkins Renfrewshire South) (SNP) (Battersea) (Lab) Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick Patrick Grady Lochaber) (SNP) and Cumnock) (SNP) Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew (Con) Bedfordshire) (Con) Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore North) (SNP) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Mr Peter Bone Stuart Andrew Erdington) (Lab) (Wellingborough) (Con) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Jeremy Hunt Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) Stuart Andrew Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) (Con) Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Maria Caulfield Leicestershire) (Con) (Con) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Zarah Sultana George Eustice (Camborne Stuart Andrew (Lab) and Redruth) (Con) Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Sir David Evennett Stuart Andrew West) (Con) (Bexleyheath and Crayford) Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Derby) (Lab) Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore (Con) Hodge Hill) (Lab) Stephen Farry (North Down) Wendy Chamberlain Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady (Alliance) Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Marion Fellows (Motherwell Patrick Grady Gregory Campbell (East Sammy Wilson and Wishaw) (SNP) Londonderry) (DUP) Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Jonathan Edwards Sir William Cash (Stone) Stuart Andrew and Hamilton West) (Ind) (Con) Katherine Fletcher (South Stuart Andrew Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore Ribble) (Con) (Lab) Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Douglas Chapman Patrick Grady South) (SNP) (Dunfermline and West Fife) Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore (SNP) Deptford) (Lab) 349 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote13 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 350

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew Dame Diana Johnson Chris Elmore and Wickford) (Con) (Kingston upon Hull North) George Freeman (Mid Bim Afolami (Lab) Norfolk) (Con) Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Melton) (Con) Sir Roger Gale (North Caroline Nokes Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Thanet) (Con) Eccles South) (Lab) Patricia Gibson (North Patrick Grady Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) Gorton) (Lab) Dame Cheryl Gillan Stuart Andrew Sir Greg Knight (East Stuart Andrew (Chesham and Amersham) Yorkshire) (Con) (Con) Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid William Wragg Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore Derbyshire) (Con) Tyneside) (Lab) Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Kate Osborne Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew Chris Law (Dundee West) Patrick Grady and The Weald) (Con) (SNP) Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Patrick Grady Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Lloyd Russell-Moyle (SNP) (Lab) Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) Patrick Grady Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Bridgwater and West Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Graham Stringer Somerset) (Con) Reddish) (Lab) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Graham Stringer Kenny MacAskill (East Patrick Grady Reddish) (Lab) Lothian) (SNP) Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady North East) (Lab) h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Liz Saville Roberts Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stuart Andrew (SDLP) (Con) Neale Hanvey (Kirkaldy and Patrick Grady Andy McDonald Chris Elmore Cowdenbeath) (SNP) (Middlesbrough) (Lab) Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Stewart Malcolm McDonald Patrick Grady (Camberwell and Peckham) (Glasgow South) (SNP) (Lab) Stuart C. McDonald Patrick Grady Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Hertfordshire) (Con) Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore John McDonnell (Hayes and Zarah Sultana (Lab/Co-op) Harlington) (Lab) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Patrick Grady Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow Patrick Grady Nairn, Badenoch and North East) (SNP) Strathspey) (SNP) John McNally (Falkirk) (SNP) Patrick Grady Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Fay Jones Khalid Mahmood Chris Elmore (Con) (Birmingham, Perry Barr) Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore (Lab) (Barking) (Lab) Seema Malhotra (Feltham Chris Elmore Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore and Heston) (Lab/Co-op) (Washington and Sunderland Christian Matheson (City of Chris Elmore West) (Lab) Chester) (Lab) Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Kate Osborne (Lab) Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield Stephen Metcalfe (South Stuart Andrew (Con) Basildon and East Thurrock) Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore (Con) (Knowsley) (Lab) Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) Stuart Andrew Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew (Con) The Border) (Con) Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con) Dehenna Davison North West) (SNP) Imran Hussain (Bradford Mohammad Yasin Anne Marie Morris (Newton Stuart Andrew East) (Lab) Abbot) (Con) Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore David Morris (Morecambe Stuart Andrew (Lab) and Lunesdale) (Con) Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North Stuart Andrew Ian Murray (Edinburgh Chris Elmore East Hampshire) (Con) South) (Lab) 351 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote13 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 352

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore (Lab/Co-op) (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Stuart Andrew Renfrewshire North) (SNP) Rothwell) (Con) John Nicolson (Ochil and Patrick Grady Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady South Perthshire) (SNP) East) (SNP) Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) Rebecca Harris Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Chris Elmore (Con) Kilburn) (Lab) Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Patrick Grady Chloe Smith (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew Bute) (SNP) (Con) Chi Onwurah (Newcastle Chris Elmore Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) Chris Elmore upon Tyne Central) (Lab) (Lab) Guy Opperman (Hexham) Stuart Andrew Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith Chris Elmore Jamie Stone (Caithness, Wendy Chamberlain and Thamesmead) (Lab) Sutherland and Easter Ross) Kate Osamor (Edmonton) Nadia Whittome (LD) (Lab/Co-op) Sir Gary Streeter (South West Stuart Andrew Kirsten Oswald (East Patrick Grady Devon) (Con) Renfrewshire) (SNP) Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew (Con) Shropshire) (Con) Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Patrick Grady Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Stuart Andrew Central) (SNP) Hempstead) (Con) Richard Thomson (Gordon) Patrick Grady Dr Dan Poulter (Central Peter Aldous (SNP) Suffolk and North Ipswich) Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) Dawn Butler (Con) (Lab) Lucy Powell (Manchester Chris Elmore Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Central) (Lab/Co-op) Hull East) (Lab) Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton Chris Elmore Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) Stuart Andrew South East) (Lab) (Con) Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) Stuart Andrew Co-op) (Con) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West Chris Elmore Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady and Penge) (Lab) Ayrshire) (SNP) Selaine Saxby (North Devon) Stuart Andrew Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Liz Saville Roberts (Con) Pete Wishart (Perth and Patrick Grady Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore North Perthshire) (SNP) Southall) (Lab) 51WH 13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 52WH

A UBI strengthens social bonds and improves mental Westminster Hall health. Nobody would deny that economic instability contributes to poor mental health, yet the current system Tuesday 13 October 2020 dangles the threat of sanctions over the heads of recipients, going so far as to drive some to suicide. UBI removes that psychological burden. A UBI will not fund the [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] lifestyle of an MP,but it is a platform on which individuals can add other income without fear of financial Universal Basic Income repercussions. [Relevant documents: e-petition 302284, Implement Universal The current system ties work to welfare. It can make Basic Income to give home & food security through the transition into work more complex. People should Covid-19, and oral evidence taken before the Petitions be free to take on part-time or occasional work without Committee on 17 September 2020, Support for individuals strings attached. A UBI affords more flexibility to and households during Covid-19, HC 754.] employee and employer, while acknowledging that employees are empowered and less likely to be exploited. It is permanent. It gives security and peace of mind. It 9.30 am cannot be withdrawn or become conditional, unlike the Philip Davies (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members pensions of hundreds of thousands of WASPI women— that there have been some changes to normal practice in Women Against State Pension Inequality—who were order to support the new call list system and to ensure cheated out of their pensions by the UK Government. that social distancing can be respected. Members should That permanency stimulates entrepreneurship, which sanitise their microphones, using the cleaning materials can lead to the generation of jobs. It is the poorest in provided, before they use them and should respect the society who will directly benefit most; as we know, one-way system around the room. Members should they are more likely to spend their money on essential speak only from the horseshoe. Members can speak items in their own community, which in turn stimulates only if they are on the call list; that applies even if local growth. debates are undersubscribed. Members cannot join a Prior to covid, the upsurge in interest in UBI was debate if they are not on the call list. Members are not attributed to the gig economy, the increase in automation expected to remain for the winding-up speeches, but and the creation of a greater number of people described they are perfectly free to do so if they wish. by Guy Standing as “the precariat”. Covid has accelerated the increase in the numbers of the precariat. Many Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP): I beg to move, people who once felt safe now feel vulnerable. That this House has considered the introduction of a universal basic income. It is the duty of any good Government to protect their citizens—not just in the short term, not just by I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting reacting to unfolding circumstances, but by planning me this opportunity. I regret that this sitting is not fully for the long term, for future generations. To that end, hybrid and that MPs who are isolating or shielding to pilot projects have already been run in Canada, the protect their health and that of others are in effect USA, Kenya, Brazil, Finland, India, Italy, Uganda and barred from taking part. That only increases the pressure Namibia. Versions of cash transfer projects have been on Members to travel when they could work from home run in Iran, Lebanon, Kuwait, Zambia and Zimbabwe. and forces those who support us to attend the parliamentary There are plans for UBI-type schemes in Spain, Switzerland, estate, too. It was my first time back on the estate for a Germany and Ukraine. I have a simple ask of the wee while and I was delighted to see new signs everywhere Minister: have the UK Government taken any steps to saying, “Keep left and keep moving”. I am hoping that learn anything from any of those countries? And please that is a new sign from the UK Government. do not quote the Finnish Finance Minister, who came While writing this speech, I noticed that as soon as I out against UBI before the results of the Finnish trial typed in the letters “u” and “n”, my iPad prompted me were even published. to select “universal”; when I accepted that, it prompted “basic income”. It appears that my iPad has been If the UK Government think it is beneath them to be paying more attention to me than the UK Government advised by foreigners, will they back pilot projects in the have. It also learns quicker. UK and learn from them? Northern Ireland is asking, Wales is asking, Scotland is asking and England is Universal basic income is an inclusive scheme that asking. If ever there was a policy that could be pursued protects and recognises everyone. All adults and children and that would be welcomed across the United Kingdom, receive a set payment on a regular basis. It is fair. It UBI is it. destigmatises the recipient. People are paid regardless of their circumstances. After all, are all people not The four pilots proposed in Scotland are all well created equal? documented—all we need is the co-operation of the UBI alleviates poverty and reduces inequality. It Department for Work and Pensions and Her Majesty’s strengthens a sense of individual citizenship. It empowers Revenue and Customs. Those pilots will help us not people and facilitates civic partnerships. To quote the only to learn about the economics of UBI but to UBI Lab Northern Ireland working paper, understand the political, strategic, institutional, psychological and ethical feasibility of a UBI. “A UBI can be understood to be a right of citizenship—a fair share of the assets we and the generations before us have helped When we exposed the UK to universal credit, it was create. It recognises each of our stake, or share, in ‘the commons’ plain to see that it had not been thought through fully, of the earth.” and it failed miserably. Ever since then, we have been I find that a truly beautiful concept. patching and amending the system. If we had run pilots 53WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 54WH

[Ronnie Cowan] not doubt for one minute that budgets must be balanced, recent times have taught us that when the for universal credit, we would have avoided many of the motivation exists, the purse strings can be loosened. pitfalls and saved many people from the suffering that it I will now review quickly the response of the Minister caused. to UBI in a recent Petitions Committee sitting. He had I claim that UBI reduces crime, gives people more three objections. First, how do we afford it? The Minister opportunity, improves health and mental wellbeing, explained that the Centre for Social Justice found that improves community relations and contributes to a giving every working-age adult in the United Kingdom stronger local economy. Minister, run these pilots across £10,000 per year would cost in the region of £400 billion. the UK and prove me wrong. I know that the Minister He seems to think it is higher, but I question that is not a fan of UBI: he will claim that the cost makes it a figure. His argument was that the average universal non-starter. Why even consider it, if we cannot afford credit claim was more generous at £16,000 per year, it? Why run pilots that might tell us that it is amazing, completely ignoring the fact that the UC figure is per even magnificent, if we cannot then implement UBI? household. A household with two parents and two kids Well, Minister, let us run the pilots, learn what benefits do not need £5K per adult and £3K per kid to meet his UBI brings or does not bring, and then we can argue generous standards. I have just halved his £400 billion about cost versus outcome. If the Minister is seriously in one stroke. telling me that even if all the benefits of UBI that I am His next question was: how do we deliver it? The claiming can be proved, he would not move mountains simpler the system, the cheaper the delivery—and UBI is to provide them for the citizens of the United Kingdom, simpler. Even if it costs the same as the existing system, then he is skating on very thin ice. we are still no worse off. He went on to boast: The NHS did not just materialise out of thin air; it “My Department and HMRC have done exceptional work was not dreamt up one wet Wednesday afternoon in the throughout the pandemic to stand up new services and increase Tea Room or designed on the back of a fag packet. The the capacity of existing ones. We have been able to move quickly to support over 9 million people”. NHS was introduced on 5 July 1948, but prior to that half of Scotland’s land mass had already been covered I offer genuine congratulations. That is a job well done. by the Highlands and Islands Medical Service, which I know my local DWP and the one jobcentre left in my had been set up in 1913. HIMS acted as a working constituency have been superb, but with UBI there blueprint for the NHS in Scotland. It was directly would be no need for that. All payments would already funded by the state and it had Ministers centrally in a be in place. With UBI, the safety net has already been Scottish Office in Edinburgh. It was a pilot project built. We are not building it as we are falling. allowed to develop and grow; it uncovered unforeseen problems and fixed them. It ensured that, on day one of Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): Is my the NHS, the NHS was to all intents and purposes hon. Friend as concerned as I am that at the height of good to go. lockdown, although the herculean efforts of the DWP staff ensured that people got paid, many people were There is an interesting aside about HIMS. One of its getting about £60 a month taken off them owing to administrators was from my constituency,a Gourock-born advance repayments? woman called Muriel Ritson. She was the only woman on the Scottish Board of Health in 1919, but by 1942 she Ronnie Cowan: That goes back to my original point: was sitting on the Beveridge commission, which helped that I do not believe universal credit is the solution we to establish the NHS. The link is there for us all to see. are looking for. It has been patched and amended, but She had learned her lessons, and she brought that when it is put under pressure and there are changes in learning to bear many years later. She also attended the circumstances, the system is not fleet of foot and able to school that the hon. Member for North East Fife cope with people’s day-to-day living. (Wendy Chamberlain) and I both attended. During the Petitions Committee sitting, the Minister Mary Breckenridge, an American, visited Scotland in turned to the issue of the impact of UBI. He had the 1924 and later established the Frontier Nursing Service temerity to say: in Kentucky,based on the HIMS model. But not everyone “this is the fundamental case against UBI.” saw the benefits of HIMS—just like today with UBI, the Conservatives argued against it. Lord Banbury objected It was not the cost or the delivery, but the impact of to English taxpayers contributing money that would UBI that he did not like. He stated: be of medical benefits to Scotland. Here we are, all “Unlike our UC system, UBI does not target support at those these years later, with NHS Scotland and the wider UK in greater need”. NHS acting in true UBI-style and supporting us all Finally, he got it right. We do not need to target through the current health crisis. If we had not had the it—everybody gets it, with no stigma attached. He went NHS, it would have been too late for us to create it. It on to say that UBI does not was there for us and UBI could have been there for “take into account additional costs faced by many individuals, us, too. such as those with a disability or those with childcare responsibilities.” If the Minister is not prepared to follow current If he reads the pilot project’s proposals, he will see that examples from around the world, then he should be they do take those into account. brave—support the pilot projects and lead the world. Then, in sheer desperation, the Minister went for an Yes, it will cost more; it will cost lots of pounds and lots of old chestnut. To put it into perspective, Chair, UBI pence. However, their value will be far higher than that would be paid to you, me and all Members of this of our current system, and the society that the spending House. Yes it would—and it would be taken back in will support is too precious not to exist. Although I do tax, thank you very much. In attempting to vindicate 55WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 56WH the current system, the Minister, without a hint of moment there is. I am thinking of people who have irony, said in his conclusions that the UK Government worked long hours to get our food to the supermarket were shelves who are not on a huge salary and who could do “providing millions to food charities to help get through to those with some help. who are struggling”. My basic plea to the Minister is this: look at whether Yet if people had UBI, they would not rely on charity we can have a trial, to see whether UBI can work and from this one nation conservatism-driven Government. whether we can have the courage that the Government People do not want handouts—they do not want charity had immediately after the war. That generation looked or the crumbs from the top table. They deserve a to Beveridge and thought, “Here is another way. Here is platform on which they can build and that allows them a way of improving society. Here is a way of making a to sit at the top table as equals, not to be beholden to change, a legacy for future generations.” their rich benefactors. For the benefit of all four nations We have all gone out on a Thursday night and in the United Kingdom, will the Minister please support applauded the NHS, which was part of that bigger the plans for UBI pilots and allow us to move forward vision. We have all, at some point in our lives, looked to with a progressive welfare system that is practical, the welfare state and thought, “Will it be there to help compassionate and fit for this century? me?” In this, we have seen that it is not. It was a wonderful vision for the 20th century, but we need 9.44 am something new for the 21st century. We need something Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): It is a that makes sure that nobody falls through the cracks as pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. we have seen in this crisis: the 3 million people who have I thank the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) had no support and who, regardless of the Government for such an impressive and informative speech about schemes we hear about, still have no support, no financial what UBI could bring to this country. safety net, no way out of this from the Government. UBI could provide that. I say to the Minister that I stand here making this speech today as a convert to UBI. Two years ago, as the At the moment, I would not give the Minister a DWP spokesperson at our party conference, I was not blueprint and say, “This is the one you must follow” in favour of UBI: I did not think that we should because that would be a mistake. We have to look at dismantle what we have at the moment and considered how we can do it, how it can be affordable and how we that we had enough problems with universal credit make sure that support gets to the people who need it: without going back to scratch. However, that was before as I said, the carers, the stay-at-home parents, the I had heard the word “coronavirus” and seen the impact people on a low income. They need our support now it was going to have on this country. That was before we more than ever. arrived at a situation where 4.5 million people in the Two years ago, perhaps, I did not see it, but now I UK were living in poverty. firmly believe that universal basic income is an idea Coronavirus has changed everything. It has changed whose time has come.This time needs something special—it everything in much the same way—this metaphor has needs us to have the courage that a previous generation been used a lot—as the second world war changed had to do something radical and progressive. When everything for this society. When Beveridge put together people look back at this time 20 to 30 years from now, his report in 1942, a lot of people said that it simply they could have this as something we tried to do and could not work, that it was not sensible and that the country hopefully succeeded in doing for the future. could not afford it. What on earth was he thinking about? And yet, immediately post-war, the Labour 9.49 am Government set about putting that Beveridge report Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is a into action. What I say today is that what this country pleasure to serve under you as Chair, Mr Davies. I start needs now is that kind of vision, and that kind of by saying to both contributors so far that I wholeheartedly willingness to take on a challenge and to change society agree with the thesis that they set out while also highlighting for the better for the next generation. It is not an the practical realities of what a universal basic income opportunity that we asked for; it has come in the form could bring. of a challenge—probably the biggest challenge that any We live in such an inequitable society—the second of us will face in our lifetimes. But we also have to see it most inequitable society that there is. We have 4.5 million as an opportunity to make progress. people living in poverty today, in one of the richest Why UBI? The reason I became a convert, frankly, countries. We know that many have made their millions has been the number of phone calls and the number of out of this crisis, but millions have fallen into very stark people who have come to me since March this year—every circumstances. We have heard about the 3.1 million day, every phone call, every person who thought they people who have been excluded from any support were financially secure, every person who spent decades whatsoever and are desperate at this time. building up a company,every person who was self-employed The unemployment rate in my constituency last year but now finds that they are without the support they was 2.8%; next year it will be 27%. This is terrifying—one need for the future: all that has convinced me that the in four people losing their jobs because of the nature of only way to tackle the issue fully and to make sure that our local economy. The 2.8% was an incredible feat, in a everyone gets the support they need is through a universal post-industrial city where the manufacturing base was basic income. wiped out, with the loss of the rail and chocolate UBI would help the people on whom we rely but we manufacturing jobs, but we now face an unprecedented often miss: the carers, the people who are low paid. As precipice, and we are worried—terrified—at what lies the hon. Member for Inverclyde said, there should be ahead. We have to think outside the box at a time like no stigma or penalty to taking another job, but at the this. That is why I believe that York, because of the 57WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 58WH

[Rachael Maskell] the moment many people are struggling to pay heating bills. A constituent came to me about that this week. nature of the economy and the way our city works, People cannot afford to feed their families. Often it is would make an ideal pilot for a UBI, or citizen’s wage, the women in the family—the mothers—who do without as many call it. to make sure their kids get what they need. It is tough. We also know that, at the end of this month, many My city is like many other places in facing that. people on furlough today will fall over tomorrow. The One of the benefits of universal basic income comes reality is that, while wages are currently at 80%, they from the fact that at the moment people are in and out will drop in areas of high lockdown to 67% and in many of work, sometimes because they must isolate, and areas to nothing. That will mean a longer and longer sometimes because of the pace of fluctuations in work. queue at the jobcentre—none of us wants to see that—or People who are self-employed try to get started or to do people simply struggling. UBI is not just about economic more work and then, with levels fluctuating, they fall circumstances; it is about holistically supporting individuals, back. Perhaps they have access to workplaces, or perhaps which is why I am also a convert to such a mechanism. not. If there was a steady income for the self-employed, It does not judge or call out, but it does protect. At a what a difference it would make to entrepreneurs who time like this, we have to look at how we protect society. want to start a business but need time to build it up and The Prime Minister talks about putting his arms to build a custom base. That would give them the around our society, yet we are not seeing the evidence of underpinning they need to grow. that. Many of the economic packages that have come As for people on statutory sick pay—as well as those out have been narrow, too late and too little. They do who do not get it—universal basic income would provide not look at the real, longer-term solutions that we need more of an underpinning while people have to move in to look at in this crisis. The packages are short term and and out of the economy. People on zero-hours contracts have not grappled with the real economic challenges of get paid—and then they do not get paid. They do not our age. We have to look at what will sustain us, and not know, from week to week. Universal credit, whatever just in the next six months or year—we are talking the Minister will say, is not agile enough to respond to decades of recovery from this pandemic. the real economy that people work in. That would not We have to inject the right solutions. Therefore, we be the case with a universal basic income. Also, people should not rush, but move on this path to look deeper entering training and skills development may move in into this situation. We have seen the benefits where and out of it, perhaps with different hours at different universality has been applied. We have the pension times. They may or may not be on full-time courses. scheme—too low, I would argue, but it is a scheme that Universal basic income provides underpinning and does does not judge—and child benefit. Such a solution not discriminate. It does not call out disabled people, removes the issue of the undeserving poor, a narrative those who are shielding, or anyone else. It does not that has often sat with this Government. It does not judge in that way, but understands. We need a system judge; it recognises the real challenges. Of course, it that understands people. should also sit alongside a progressive taxation system— Something that came through to me clearly when we something we desperately need which challenges those debated the Coronavirus Act 2020 was that there were with broader shoulders and supports those without that opportunities to volunteer during the pandemic. We resilience. saw that from the British people in an incredible way at At a time when we see our high streets about to the start of the pandemic. No doubt as we get through topple over, businesses folding, our whole local economy the winter crisis together—and it is going to be a hard in York and our national economy spiralling out of winter—many people will put their hand up and say, “I control, and pp spiralling down with it, we need that will help.” Universal basic income would give employers safety net. Universal credit has been a good attempt, flexibility, because they would know that their staff but it judges, it sanctions and it has caused harm. would be out volunteering, moving in and out of those People have to wait for weeks before they get any opportunities, as we pull together as a society to get money. At the height of the pandemic, it was not just through this impossible situation. We have to have that five weeks, it was eight or nine weeks that people in my solidarity that was built. Flexibility, built into our ability constituency waited. to sustain ourselves through the crisis, would be underpinned by a universal basic income. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work That is why I say do not push it off the table. A and Pensions (Will Quince) indicated dissent. recovery UBI would help the economy to grow and establish itself again. It is interesting that the Mayor of Rachael Maskell: The Minister is shaking his head. I London and even Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater talked to my constituents who were offered a loan, to be Manchester, have said that we need to look at UBI. paid back. I am telling the Minister about cases in my That is my ask of the Minister today: that we look at constituency where people waited that length of time to how to build the foundations of a new, fair economy, get their hands on any money. They were absolutely which does not discriminate and is built on the principle desperate and needed to use the food bank. Why are we of recognising that everyone wants to put in, but sometimes doing this to people when we have other tools that we people need help. UBI is the fairest way to do that. I ask can utilise? the Minister whether he will set up a UBI commission That is why I believe that universal basic income will to look at how UBI can work in different areas, and at bring the universality, the collective responsibility of the economic challenges of our age and the flexibility society, and the solidarity to see people through this needed to grow a new economy, and to report back to time. I argued for it at the start of the pandemic, seeing the House on that commission to show how we can what was ahead. I believe ever more strongly that, as build a stronger, better economy and a fairer system for poverty encroaches, we must find proper solutions. At the future. 59WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 60WH

9.59 am we might be helping those fewer and fewer people in full-time and stable work but not enabling people to LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): develop full-time and stable work positively. Yesterday the Prime Minister responded to me when I asked what someone on minimum wage, who will have a I am a universalist. I generally believe that giving third of their wage cut, should do. He said, “Oh, that’s things to everyone pushes the quality up, not down, the point of universal credit,” in the way that he does. I because the pressure is that everyone understands their think he was getting confused with universal basic value. That does not mean that everyone pays in equally. income. That would be the point of a universal basic One of the critiques that we hear is that giving all this income—so that as wages fluctuated down or there money to everyone means giving rich people money. I were particular problems, there was an automatism; so do not know how those people think the pay-as-you-earn that there was always a basic floor and an income system works, but in a person’s payslip for the month stream that people could rely on. they pay x amount of tax—x is given to the Government. If UBI were set at something like £100 a week—I pick The reality, as we know with universal credit, is that that number from the top of my head—that would there is an application system that is particularly difficult, mean £5,000 a year. Under the current tax system, and the work component has been re-imposed on universal anyone earning more than £26,000 would be a net credit in this country since lockdown. It is not just a contributor. That is an interesting number, because payment made to support people unconditionally, and £26,000 is about the average wage in the south-east, we know that the stress of the waiting period causes although it is slightly higher in Brighton. Actually, that huge anguish for many of our communities. People do would be very positive, because those earning more not see universal credit, or jobseeker’s allowance, or the would be paying for it. Of course, the tax system would dole—or whatever name it is given—as something that have to be redesigned to make it balance. Those enabling is their right or that they deserve. They see it as something figures are an automatism. that they are being judged on to get, and many proud people leave it until it is too late. They leave it, thinking, In the ’90s, the Scandinavians developed what was “I will use my savings; I will do the good thing for called flexicurity. It was adopted, of course, by the society and not go immediately and ask for support.” European Union—we can have arguments about our That means that by the time they are knocking on the leaving, but that is not why I raise it. I raise it because it jobcentre door, they might have already used up what was about looking forward and saying that the job little resources they had—resources that the Government market was changing. The Scandinavian countries expect them to live on while they are waiting for an recognised that they needed a more flexible labour application. How could we avoid a system that is degrading, market. Jobs for life were not necessarily going to causes mental health problems and causes people to happen, and were not necessarily desirable. Companies rely on food banks? Surely we should explore some sort were saying that they needed the ability to be fleet of of system of universal basic income. It would, after all, foot. The pact that was made was that if there was to be do exactly what the Prime Minister promised; it would a more flexible workforce—the ability to hire and fire actually fulfil that pledge. more easily—there needed to be greater protections. Some of that was about free lifelong learning. The Universal basic income is not a replacement for universal pillars were a flexible labour market, lifelong learning, basic services. We need the NHS, we probably need a labour market policies and a strong trade union-business separate way of dealing with housing, we need lifelong pact. The final pillar of the European model was a learning—we need those things to go along with it. model social security system with adequate minimum However, it is a liberating factor for those things that support for all. the Government really should not be providing. My view is that the Government should not be providing I know that the Government are slightly allergic to food parcels—neither the Government nor charities. things that come out of Europe, but we should learn Charities do it in large part. In Brighton, most of those from that decent, forward-looking principle of how the charities are also supported by the local council through labour market needs to look in the future. I do not want cash amounts for them to go to the cash and carry. creative people to be forced to go into cyber-security, as That is not dignified. It is not dignified that people have the latest Government advert suggests, if they want to to go and get a bag of pre-sorted goods to live on that make ends meet. I want them to be free to develop new week. I do not think that is acceptable. That is where creative industries that provide billions of pounds of a cash transfer is important, because cash has a liberating revenue to our country. If they are not given support to element in those circumstances. It has a dignifying do that in difficult times, there is a danger that we will element in those circumstances, because when a person lose whole sections of our industry. I genuinely think walks into the supermarket, they are able, on a par that UBI is an opportunity to put some of that flexicurity with everyone, to engage and purchase the things they model into practice. may like. UBI will not be perfect—there are problems with all Nor is a universal basic income a substitute for a systems—but I believe that it encompasses some of the decent industrial strategy. We need strong trade unions principles of the failed universal credit system. It pushing for greater conditions for workers. We need to encompasses the idea that people can transition. Conditions ensure decent relations between employers and trade could be put on it and infrastructure could be put unions to make sure we have industrial harmony. We around it, but I am not sure that would be particularly need to make sure that the national minimum wage is helpful. being pushed up so that it becomes a real living wage. UBI also has the ability to rebalance our generational All those things are needed. However, if we do not deal problem. We have the clear problem at the moment that with the transitions, particularly in a society where we many younger working-age people—people under 30 or have more transitions and less stability in the job market, even under 40, so not that young in some accounts—feel 61WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 62WH

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle] who thought they would never have to do so have engaged with DWP and universal credit support for the that they are getting a rum deal. They feel that they will first time. DWP staff have worked incredibly hard at never reach pension age because it will increase on and this challenging time. I commend them for that, and on. They feel that the state has abandoned them in acknowledge that, as a Member, I have had direct housing and welfare—under-35s have lower rates in support from them. I also acknowledge that the housing, et cetera. They feel almost infantilised by the Government have temporarily increased the universal current system. That generational pact has broken. I credit standard allowance for 2021 and relaxed the minimum think that part of the problem with coronavirus is that a income floor for the duration of the crisis. However, lot of young people are not convinced that there is a that demonstrates that every support mechanism currently generational pact in society, because they do not feel available has eligibility conditions, and it is therefore that the state or society has actually bothered to care for inevitable that people will miss out. That is often why their concerns. They feel that huge amounts are given to they contact us, as their Members of Parliament, and it pensioners. That is not necessarily true—our pension is is why UBI is such a powerful idea: there are no hoops rather low—but that is the feeling among lots of people. to jump through and no complicated terms and conditions A universal basic income would of course differentiate that exclude people. There is no sense of arbitrariness. between ages. It would be slightly lower for children and We heard yesterday about further restrictions—more would then increase for working-age people and again restrictions have already been put in place in Scotland—and for pensioners. It would be a continuum, which would I am glad that the Government are bringing forward rebalance that understanding of a generational pact further economic support. However, I am disappointed that everyone gains from. That would really transform that, several months on from the initial lockdown, and our society for the better, which is why I hope the facing renewed restrictions and a surge in infections Government will at least explore some real, decent pilot and hospital admissions, we are still no clearer on test schemes. and trace or on a job support scheme that actually reflects the reality of operating under the current restrictions 10.10 am and the seasonality of work in constituencies such as mine, which relies on tourism. Indeed, it feels like we are Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): It is a back in emergency measures, calling on the Paymaster pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. General to unblock issues and get responses from I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Government Departments. Cowan)—a fellow Greenockian, as he acknowledged—on Beyond covid, there has been support for UBI pilots. securing this important debate. In Fife, the preparatory work has been done; they just I agree that the pandemic has made the case for UBI need permission to run the pilot scheme. Instead of ever more urgent. At the outset of the pandemic, I and relying on evidence from elsewhere, let us develop our others welcomed the Government’s financial support own evidence base, then we will be best placed to assess schemes and, I admit, generally accepted that existing whether UBI will work and the income and infrastructure HMRC mechanisms were the most efficient way of required to deliver it. This work could arguably start getting support out quickly and effectively to employers quickly, and report quickly as well. This year, many who and employees. However, time has passed, and we now assumed that the safety net of our welfare system would need to recognise that millions of people missed out on be there to catch them have found the holes too big. any support and continue to do so. Many constituents Exploring UBI is a way of addressing those holes and have been in touch—I am sure the same is true of other providing a platform for future prosperity and economic Members present—to say that they had missed out on recovery. support either because they were employed a day after the furlough cut-off or because their old employer 10.14 am would not re-hire them. Others missed out on the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to self-employment income scheme because they were not participate in this debate. I thank the hon. Member for able to jump through the Treasury’s hoops. They were, Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) for setting the scene and I therefore, unable to access the support they desperately am pleased to make a contribution. I am also pleased to needed. see the Minister. I believe he will do his best to respond We have all heard these stories, which is why many of to what we are asking for. us are members of the all-party parliamentary group on As others have said, covid-19 has been with us over gaps in support, ably chaired by my hon. Friend the the past few months. I recollect many conversations Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross with constituents about these matters back in March. (Jamie Stone). It is impossible to listen to these stories Never at any point did I honestly think we would end without feeling a huge amount of empathy towards up where we are now, with these restrictions in place. these people, who have faced an incredibly difficult year Even as we were fast hurtling towards the changes, I and now find further months of restrictions looming. never envisaged us being here. Some 3 million people were excluded, in some cases on I thank the Government, Ministers, the Chancellor an entirely arbitrary basis. Despite the campaigning of and everyone who has been forthright and helpful. many, the Government consciously continued to exclude Others have done so, but I would also like to put it on those people—if they got no support at the start, they the record, as it is important to include it in Hansard. are still not getting any now. Many of my constituents in Strangford have survived Other Members have referred to members of our until now because of the Government’s commitment society who are sadly all too familiar with the challenges and help. To be honest, those people would not be there involved in engaging with our welfare system. However, without that, so I put on the record my thanks without access to the current support schemes, many to the Minister. 63WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 64WH

As elected representatives, the nature of our job guy or lady across the table had a business from which means that people do not necessarily come to us to tell they were earning £300 a week—some were earning us how good things are or to say thank you, although more—and I had to tell them, “Look, £94.50 is what many do and we appreciate that. People come to us you get.” because they have concerns and worries. Some have I understand that the Government offered what they come to me—others have referred to this—because they could—I am not criticising that—but there must be a fell outside the scheme. way to ensure that those businesses can hold on long Even with all the schemes that the Government have enough so that they can then turn the corner and do brought forward, it is clear that people have missed out, better. I am really conscious of the issues. We need including the 3 million people referred to in a question conditions when it comes to universal basic income. I to the Prime Minister during his statement on covid-19 understand that some of the naysayers are saying that it yesterday, as well as the self-employed and directors. I could reduce the incentive to work. Well, I tell you this: do not want to labour the point, but they invested their every person who came to me looking for help wanted profits and income back into their family businesses, to work. They wanted to continue to work and they thereby employing 12, 15 or even 20 people. But when it wanted that opportunity. They just needed that wee bit came to helping them, the help was not there. of help to get them over the line. The Government have, Why do I look sympathetically on this particular in fairness, responded positively, but I wonder exactly methodology of benefit? It is because universal basic what we need to do. income could be the system to help those who did not receive the income they needed. I am not being critical Ronnie Cowan: I should perhaps have said this earlier. of the Government, but I want to put that on the One complaint about basic income is that it makes record. If we cannot help people, we have to consider people indolent because people are paid for doing nothing. different ways of doing things. That is why the hon. I refer the Minister to all the pilots that have been run Member for Inverclyde has promoted this issue and throughout the world, which show that there is absolutely other Members have supported it. no evidence for that whatsoever. People the world over The experience of my constituency of Strangford is are just like us: they want the opportunity to work and no different from that of the hon. Member for North earn a wage. Basic income does not make people indolent. East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), who said that tourism is important to her constituency. The core economic Jim Shannon: I wholeheartedly agree. I was sympathetic driver of Ards and North Down Borough Council, to the really good question that the hon. Member for which covers the majority of my constituency, is based Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) asked the on tourism. Tourism is vital because it provides income Prime Minister yesterday in the Chamber. I am not and jobs, thereby keeping the whole thing going. saying that because he is sitting across from me; I told I am realistic about the system. I understand that the him it was a good question at the time. It was about the Government do not have bottomless pockets or a money minimum wage. I understand how it works. There are tree at the bottom of their garden. There is no money at arguments to reduce the working week to four days and the end of the rainbow, so they have to work practically to reduce wages, but if someone on a minimum wage with the moneys that they have. I do believe, however, loses wages, they have nowhere to go. This is about that the Minister should at least consider a pilot scheme every penny they have. for universal basic income, so that we can judge and I remember the stories that people in my constituency consider it. Can we pay for it? That is important. We have told me. They managed everything almost to the have to be realistic and honest. Can we reach out and last pound for that week. Even a small reduction in help those people who have missed out, including in my what they have will mean that they will not be able to constituency? Those are the people on whose behalf I pay their rent or their car off. They may be paying off am speaking today. furniture for their property, too. The whole thing becomes There are some 52 million adults aged 18 or over in a real difficulty. If somebody takes ill, it becomes a real the United Kingdom, and 12 million children and young problem. The hon. Gentleman’s question was pertinent, people under 12. I understand the economics, the figures because I could relate personally to what he was saying. and the statistics that mean that some earners are taxed I thank him for that. at a higher rate. My life is no different from that of In opening the debate, the hon. Member for Inverclyde anybody else, and the same is true of the lives of others referred to other schemes. I read in the briefing about in this Chamber. Society is judged by how it looks after the Finnish experiment. It is not all about money. I those who are less well off. When I was a child—that am conscious of time, so I will come to my conclusion was a long time ago, by the way—we never had much fairly quickly. Those who participated in the Finnish back in those days. It was a fact. We did not have experiment material possessions, because that was the way it was in “were more satisfied with their lives and experienced less mental those days, but it made me more understanding of strain, depression, sadness and loneliness. They also had a more those who need help. That is why I am here today, to positive perception of their cognitive abilities, i.e. memory…and speak up and to support the hon. Member for Inverclyde. ability to concentrate.” The Minister is a compassionate person as well. I Giving people that help improves their quality of life, believe in my heart that he understands very well the physically and mentally. We have to look at that, because policy we are putting forward and why it is so important. there is cost otherwise. If the Government or others are Can we do better than universal credit? I felt a wee bit not able to help, there are impacts on people’s physical embarrassed sometimes whenever people came to me and mental health, which then has to be paid for by the during the covid-19 crisis and I said, “You can get NHS. I suggest that although the Finnish experiment universal credit.” I knew right away, though, that the may not be the best example, it did highlight that issue. 65WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 66WH

[Jim Shannon] As someone who sits on the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, I can say that the Committee will As I see every day, those who are under financial be looking at universal basic income. There have already pressure and who are worried about their future also been 20,000 individual submissions not only asking the face mental stress and difficulty. I meet people every Committee to look at universal basic income,but supportive day, every week, in my office—my staff do most of that, of it and describing its benefits. I am struck by just to be fair—and recently, when universal credit first about everyone’scontributions regarding the disadvantages came in, I remember that there were great problems. of universal credit, particularly the five-week wait— The hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris something the Select Committee is currently looking Stephens) and I have spoken about these things on a at—and, of course, the advance repayments model. It number of occasions, and we understand that. beggars belief that at the height of lockdown in May, advance repayments of £60 a month were taken off Rachael Maskell: That brings to mind another aspect people. At least 1.6 million universal credit claimants of this issue, which is sickness absence from the had money taken off them in May this year, which is workplace. We obviously know the impact that has, but something that the Government really do need to look at. if people have the underpinning of a universal basic income, that will help with their rehabilitation and get By way of background, the Scottish Government those people back into work, whatever form of work confirmed on 21 May 2018 that they would provide that is. It may be volunteering experience or it may be £250,000 over two years to support the undertaking of through social prescribing, and therefore having a the feasibility study for a universal basic income pilot in universal basic income could be a real aid to rehabilitation. Scotland. In June 2020, a group established to explore Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is another the feasibility of a citizens’ basic income pilot concluded opportunity? that while such a pilot was desirable it was not feasible within the current devolved settlement, as the necessary Jim Shannon: I certainly do. That is why I brought up tax powers remained with the UK Government through the issue of people’s physical and mental experiences— the Department for Work and Pensions and HMRC. because if we can get people into volunteering or get The Scottish Government have written to UK Ministers them back to work and moving up, that will make the asking them to engage constructively, and to discuss the Minister’s job a lot easier as well. next steps in getting the pilots up and running. A The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) petition entitled, “Implement Universal Basic Income referred to the five-week period, which turned out to be to give home & food security through Covid-19”, was an eight-week period in many cases. In a way, with all considered in an oral evidence session, as my hon. the experiences we had early on with universal credit, Friend the Member for Inverclyde mentioned, on we overcame many of those issues, and the Government 17 September this year. In response, the UK Government did as well. I therefore say gently to the Minister that we said that a UBI did not target help on those who needed should perhaps be looking at a methodology for a it most, stressing that additional support had been universal basic income, at least on the basis of a pilot provided during the coronavirus outbreak with the job scheme, because with a pilot scheme the Government retention scheme and changes to statutory sick pay and can perceive the issue, look over it, challenge it and universal credit. I understand that the Welsh Senedd investigate to see whether it is possible. In Northern debated universal basic income on 13 September this Ireland, 16% of people—300,000 people—live in poverty, year, with a motion calling for the Welsh Government and that is before housing costs, which are enormous. to establish a universal basic income trial in Wales. With that in mind, the Northern Ireland Assembly also We want basic income pilots in Scotland, as well as asked questions on this matter, although I understand elsewhere in the UK. That is desirable, but it can be that responsibility for the DWP lies here. done only with full co-operation and collaboration Wehave always had the greatest respect for the Minister, from the Government. Far too many people across the as he knows, and I believe him to be a compassionate UK were living with the constant pressure of poverty, person who can understand why we, the hon. Member even before coronavirus. In the period 2016-19, about 1 for Inverclyde, and others have spoken on this topic. We million people in Scotland were in poverty,living precarious believe there is a necessity for the universal basic income and insecure lives. That includes people in precarious to be looked at through a pilot scheme. I believe it will and insecure work, which the Government need to help others, and therefore, along with others, I ask for tackle. It is not right in the 21st century that people are that as well. being pushed into destitution and homelessness, having to rely on food banks to survive. 10.27 am Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): It is a The proposed pilot that the Scottish Government pleasure to see you in the chair, Mr Davies. This has want to introduce would run for three years, with a been a fantastic debate in which everyone has come to a one-year preparation period. Even with a pilot, it should consensus; we will see if that lasts as the debate goes on. be understood that such a systematic change to the It was led superbly by my hon. Friend the Member for welfare state could take many years to introduce. Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan), and I very much subscribe Commenting on these matters, the SNP social justice to his advice that we should keep left and keep moving—that and fairness commission produced a discussion paper, is something we should all do, and I encourage the “A Secure Income for All”, which explores the principle Minister to do so. He is shaking his head, for reasons of the state providing a secure minimum income, with a that are beyond understanding. My hon. Friend also more in-depth examination of universal basic income. said that pilots are being asked for across the UK and As many Members have said, the current situation should be supported, which is something I will come to with covid has exposed pre-existing vulnerabilities and later in my remarks. shortcomings in the welfare and social security system. 67WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 68WH

That system is an essential public service, like the national from receiving help and the restrictions that apply, health service, and it should be funded properly and ranging from the five-week wait to the benefit cap and designed to support us all in times of need. Instead, it is many other problems. our view that the Government have eroded the social It is also true that there is a very long-term and safety net over the past decade, with brutal cuts and fundamental issue with social security that those who poverty-inducing policies such as the benefit sanctions support versions of universal basic income recognise. regime, the benefit cap, the two-child limit and the No system stands still. The world has changed bedroom tax. Even with the temporary £20-a-week fundamentally, particularly the world of work and the increase in the universal credit standard allowance, extent to which we are increasingly in a world of flexible which the UK Government have called generous, people employment, income volatility and fundamental who are out of work are £1,000 a year worse off today demographic change. compared with 2011. We want that £20-a-week increase to be made permanent, and it is disappointing that the Even the principles that Beveridge set out as the basis UK Government have refused the right to statutory of the post-war social security system, starting with the sick pay to all those told to self-isolate as part of concept of a flat-rate system, soon had to change as the contact tracing. world changed—as women went into the workplace If we look at the figures on statutory sick pay, the and different pockets of disability emerged. The interaction UK Government’scurrent rate is £94.25 a week, compared between those at work and the nature of the jobs they with £266 a week in Ireland and £287 a week in countries were doing also changed and increasingly became a such as Germany and Austria. The UK Government system that topped up the basic, flat-rate insurance-based have the second-lowest rate in the European Union for systems, so we have ended up with a complex hybrid. statutory sick pay. As the hon. Member for Strangford It is also true—I will come on to this in a minute—that (Jim Shannon) and other Members have said, during whatever system we end up with will have to accommodate the covid period, people whom we would consider to a variety of different approaches. Members have stressed have had a comfortable lifestyle before the pandemic no this morning, and I agree, that if we want to build an longer have such a lifestyle, which is one reason why a argument for a form of universal basic income, the universal basic income could and should be a solution. Government have done a lot of the work for us by It is indefensible for the Government to obstruct introducing a system that has embraced conditionality potential solutions to poverty such as basic income and sanctions with vigour in recent years. If we want to pilots. As mentioned by the hon. Member for Edinburgh convince people of the merits of a basic income, we West (Christine Jardine), there was a call by many could not do much better, given that the DWP seeks to political parties for an emergency basic payment to be micromanage so much of people’s lives, whether they put in place, to go in people’s pockets and support are out of work or in work conditionality,where interaction families during the covid crisis. An emergency basic with job centres often feels like an obstacle course of payment would not be a universal basic income, but booby-traps designed to trigger sanctions. Those sanctions would go some way towards ensuring that people had a are wildly disproportionate including, until last year, secure income. That is something which we very much cutting people off without support for up to three years. believe the Government need to look at. The 3 million The social outcomes of all those policies include what who have been excluded have been referred to in this many refer to as the soaring numbers of people whose debate. The Government need to consider an emergency destitution is such that they are dependent on food payment going to everyone, particularly as local and banks. regional lockdowns are put in place across these islands. I do not want to cover all the points that have been We certainly encourage a universal basic income. We made, but I will refer to two areas where the basic want to encourage the Department for Work and Pensions income argument is particularly relevant. The first is to engage with all the devolved Administrations and income volatility and the ability of the social security any local authorities that want to put a basic income system to deal effectively with the fluctuations in income pilot in place, wherever they are in these islands. We that have become characteristic of the labour market. believe the time has come for that to happen. Again, the problem is not new but, as self-employment, sometimes very dubious forms of self-employment, the 10.36 am gig economy and zero-hours contracts have become Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): It is a more prevalent, it is particularly pertinent. pleasure to contribute to this debate under your The ability of the social security system to react in a chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate the hon. Member timely manner to sudden drops in income is stretched to for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) and others for securing the limit. Despite the use of realtime information from the debate. We have heard strong contributions from the tax system, the monthly cycle of universal credit Members who have critiqued the existing social security payments does not correspond to real-life volatility in system and shown how its weaknesses have been exposed many household incomes, as John Hills of the London during the pandemic. That is absolutely right, for reasons School of Economics has certainly shown. There is a that I will come on to, but we have heard not only about strong case for mitigating that volatility through payments the pandemic, but about a recognition that the current that do not respond to changes in income, which is social security system has a number of fundamental precisely what child benefit—the nearest thing we have problems. to an element of basic income—does. The stability of We have rehearsed the problems with the universal child benefit has been shown to be one of the most credit system on many occasions in the past and will no valued components of the social security system. Whatever doubt do so again, 10 years on. Many problems have happens to earnings from other benefits, child benefit arisen from the fact that many people have been excluded can always be counted on. 69WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 70WH

[Ms Karen Buck] How is the model funded? The personal tax allowance is abolished, so income is taxed from the first pound. The second point concerns the basis on which benefits The basic rate of income tax rises from 20% to 30% from are awarded, whether to individuals or households. Our the first pound of earnings, rising to 40% of gross personal taxation system is overwhelmingly based on income at £25,000 to 50% at £45,000 and 60% at individuals, but our benefits system is increasingly based £90,000 and beyond. An earned income tax discount is on the assessment of household income. Universal credit introduced to avoid excessive taxes on lower-income groups. has reinforced that disparity. It is a benefit designed Members will appreciate that those are not trivial around an out-of-date model of a single breadwinner changes to the system of personal taxation. My hon. and it disadvantages second earners in the household, Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd who can find most of their earnings lost to household Russell-Moyle) said that a basic income would require a means-testing. We should not be comfortable about the total restructuring of the taxation system. That is not fact that people in lower-income households face a something that we can enter into lightly. The scale of completely different set of implicit tax rates from the what is needed to accommodate such changes is better-off. considerable. A doubling of the marginal tax rate on gross incomes of £25,000 a year would surely make even Jim Shannon: I want to underline the issue. It is not the most ardent supporter of basic income hesitate. just about finance, but about health, and the physical Any basic income scheme faces the problem that and mental responses to that. Does the hon. Lady feel spreading payments out over the entire population will that that has to be taken into consideration when it require either cuts to other expenditure programmes or comes to support in such a scheme? increases in tax revenue. The Compass basic income model, which is widely quoted, does not offer a blueprint Ms Buck: I totally accept that security is fundamental for immediate reform. The other scheme is intended as to people’s physical and mental wellbeing. That is implicit a policy that could be adopted immediately. Therefore, in the idea of recognising the weaknesses of the existing the basic income for adults and children is lower, at system and how it responds to volatility, most obviously £60 and £40 a week respectively. To balance the books, demonstrated during a crisis such as the pandemic, but the income tax personal allowance is abolished, as is the consistent over the long term. primary threshold for national insurance contributions, Basic income as a fully individual entitlement could so all income is subject to tax and national insurance. A go some way towards addressing that problem, although new lower rate of 15p in the pound is introduced for the it must be recognised that it is not a complete solution, first £12,000 of income to avoid successively disadvantaging because most of the proposals for basic income retain the lowest earners. All other marginal rates are increased large parts of the existing social security system, most by three percentage points, so the basic rate would be critically, housing benefit. Beveridge was defeated by 23% in England, Wales and so on. That gives an indication the disparity in housing costs across the country, and of what the implications would be for changes to the tax that remains now—if anything, it is probably more system. In both cases, marginal rates of income tax pronounced than it was. A basic income is not the only increase not just for the rich, but for middle and lower imaginable way to improve the current situation, but earners, and income that was never taxed before becomes the argument for it sets out the problem with great liable for income tax and/or national insurance clarity. contributions. Some contributions to the basic income debate, however, Although I accept a number of the arguments about suggest that the reform could be easily implemented—“oven the positivity of changes to the social security system ready”, to coin a phrase—and that all that is necessary that give people security, we cannot dismiss the fact that to deliver it is political will and progressive values. I do we will either have to find significant additional not want to drown the debate in figures, but it is contributions to make it work or look at how the important to get a sense of the scale of change involved changes to the taxation system will affect people and in even modest basic income proposals. I will refer ensure that is part of the debate. It is worth pointing out briefly to two important studies that address the issue that the pilot studies that have been conducted in other of how to fund basic income. Both show incredible countries do not have the advantage of being able to do clarity and are from people who are sympathetic to the all this in realtime, precisely because to make a full basic idea. income work requires social security and tax to be fully The first is a paper by the late Tony Atkinson, who integrated as part of the model; it cannot simply be was a towering figure in the study of inequality. The about testing some aspects of the scheme. paper was published after his death in 2017. Tony I welcome this debate, and I certainly do not dismiss Atkinson favoured what he called a participation income, the idea of basic income. I recognise and support the which would be conditional on some form of social contributions made this morning. People are saying contribution, but not unpaid work. As those conditions that a basic income can address long-term problems do not influence the modelling, we can take the results that are poorly handled by existing social security models. as relevant to basic income in general. The adult As Labour develops our proposals for replacing universal participation income in his model scheme is £75 a week. credit with a more generous and less stigmatising system, Child benefit is raised to £52.60 and £89 for the first I hope we will rise to some of those challenges. child. The scheme prioritises children, and is certainly not extravagantly generous to adults. Other social security benefits would be retained, so it is essentially a partial 10.48 am basic income scheme. The modelling shows that it would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work not eliminate poverty, but would lead to significant and Pensions (Will Quince): I thank the Backbench reductions. Business Committee for granting time for this important 71WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 72WH debate, and all Members who contributed. I will try to that is borne out in the feasibility report by the Scottish address as many of the points that they raised in the Parliament’s own commission. Indeed, there would be time that I have. increased taxation far beyond anything seen in the This issue ignites passionate debate in many quarters, United Kingdom before. We would be taking thousands and I am grateful to be able to come to the House and of pounds in taxation from hard-working people, often make the Government’sposition crystal clear. Throughout simply to shuffle money around in what could be a the pandemic, people have faced significant challenges. costly farce of bureaucracy, before paying it back to Many have sadly lost their job or have seen their income people in monthly UBI payments. That would be a reduce. During these challenging times, my priority as decadence of expenditure and a blow to productivity Minister with responsibility for welfare delivery remains that we can little afford in the throes of one of the most ensuring that the most vulnerable in our society receive severe economic situations that we have faced. the support and financial assistance that is available to I turn now to delivery. UBI is indeed a fantasy, in them. which the practicalities are rarely thought through, and Thankfully, universal credit and the Government’s if we interrogate the idea even slightly, it very quickly £9.3 billion investment in the welfare safety net has unravels. Delivering infrastructure schemes of this size been there to catch those most affected. It has been vital is not easy. For all its detractors, who have been proven to the 3 million people who have made a benefit claim badly wrong in the face of the pandemic, universal since March. We have paid more than 90% of claims in credit is one of the most advanced welfare systems in full and on time, and we have got support to millions of the world. As with any complex IT system that delivers families at an incredibly difficult period. We have targeted sweeping reform, it has taken time to implement and it support, which gets to the people who need it most has not been without challenge. while maintaining responsible economic policies. In 2017, the Work and Pensions Committee found Despite the success of universal credit, some still that any UBI that attempted to support people’sadditional attempt to deride the system and instead demand what needs would not reduce complexity, and that ultimately they call a universal basic income, or UBI. The concept, it was difficult to see how a UBI would substantially as has been explained today, is that a standard monthly alleviate poverty or provide income security. allowance is paid to all working-age adults, regardless As the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) of their circumstances. At first glance, it may appear rightly pointed out, other countries have already tested appealingly simple, but in reality it would be a costly UBI and quickly found that the practice is as bad as the mess that would leave the vulnerable in society far theory. As the hon. Gentleman also pointed out, a UBI worse off. It would disincentivise work in key industries test in Finland was abandoned as a flop after two years, and leave the country’s finances in ruins. with the Finnish Finance Minister saying that the case On the flip side, the universal credit system has was closed for UBI. Importantly— proven that it is up to the challenge. Replacing universal Ronnie Cowan rose— credit, at potentially astronomical cost, would be of little benefit to anyone, not least those who rely on our Will Quince: I have given way once already; if I can welfare safety net the most. give way again at the end, I will. I hope that my clear arguments against UBI, which I As I was saying, the Finnish Finance Minister concluded will set out today, will make it clear that the Government that there must be conditionality—that is the important have no plans to adopt this policy, and for good reasons. point—in the social security system. It is not in the interests of the taxpayer or of those who This Government have done brilliant work through rely on our welfare safety net. Rather than continuing the pandemic to stand up and bolster services, and to to push the unrealistic and damaging idea of a UBI, its get money to those who need it in all four nations of our supporters would do well to look at the welfare safety United Kingdom. Wehave supported more than 9 million net that we already have. people through the coronavirus job retention scheme In the short time that I have left, I intend to cover and we have accepted more than 3 million new claims three areas, if possible: cost, delivery and impact. First, for universal credit. The universal credit system has I turn to cost. A 2018 report by the CSJ found that proven that it is up to the challenge, and replacing it at giving everyone over the age of 16 in the UK £10,000 a potentially astronomical cost would provide little benefit year would cost £500 billion. Despite those staggering to anyone, not least those who rely most on our welfare sums being paid out, a UBI would be likely to leave the safety net. most vulnerable in society worse off. As soon as we Finally, I want to discuss impact, which is the think about the people who need more support from the fundamental case against UBI. The welfare system is a state, the supposedly simple idea of UBI quickly starts safety net and should be there for those who need it. to unravel. Unlike universal credit, UBI does not target support at those in greater need or take into account additional Ronnie Cowan: Is that £500 billion gross or net? costs faced by many individuals, such as those with Will Quince: I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman disabilities or those with childcare responsibilities. To about the CSJ report, because I do not have it to hand. put things into some kind of perspective, UBI would be paid, as the hon. Member for Inverclyde pointed out, to Ronnie Cowan: That is the gross figure. me and all the other Members in the Chamber today and across Parliament. I would much rather that it be Will Quince: The point I am making is that when we spent on supporting those who need it. To claim, as the even begin to think about introducing a UBI, we see hon. Gentleman did, that that would simply be taken that not only would the cost be astronomical, but the back in tax is not a valid argument, as I have set out, Government would have to increase taxation mercilessly; because that is simply shuffling money around. 73WH Universal Basic Income13 OCTOBER 2020 Universal Basic Income 74WH

[Will Quince] provides targeted support to those who are most in need, in a way that is affordable to the taxpayer—challenges The OECD has also been clear about the broader that UBI simply does not and cannot meet. consequences. For most high-income countries, a UBI 10.58 am could increase poverty and negatively affect the poorest, with middle-income households most likely to gain. Ronnie Cowan: I thank everyone who has taken the That is all before we start discussing real outcomes. time to come and speak today, and I thank the Minister Evidence suggests that UBI provides a disincentive to for his time as well. I have rebutted most of what he employment, and in the Finnish trial the Government said, because it is the same speech he used in the have acknowledged—I repeat this, because it is Petitions Committee, about implementation, outcomes important—the need for conditionality. and being too costly. I have already dealt with that here. If anyone really wants to see how the models work—I Chris Stephens: Surely the Finnish model demonstrated acknowledge what the hon. Member for Westminster that people rejected precarious work and that employers North (Ms Buck) said on that—with all the numbers in had to increase pay and model terms and conditions. It boxes that we can add up, subtract and play all these is just not the case that the Finnish model suggested a games with, Annie Miller wrote an excellent book called disincentive to work. “A Basic Income Handbook”, which contains many examples that can be drawn on. She also handily gives Will Quince: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his calculations to put into a spreadsheet, so that people intervention and I hear the call that he and other can build their own and play with it. If the Minister Members across the Chamber make for a UBI pilot, but wants evidence from across the world, I am not going to in rebuttal I say, “Show me the international evidence.” bring it to him. He has the staff behind him. I would The hon. Member for Inverclyde made reference to have thought someone would have brought him evidence numerous pilots that have taken place all over the and said, “You want to have a look at that.” That is why world, so why does he not demonstrate what he argues I asked in my speech whether he had looked at any for by showing what impact they had, and then showing evidence from across the world. He comes up with these the evidence of how those countries have gone on to old canards and arguments that UBI makes people implement UBI? indolent and stops them working. There is no evidence anywhere to show that. Ronnie Cowan rose— I wonder what the final straw will be that makes the Government wake up to the idea. At one point, a Will Quince: I will gladly meet the hon. Gentleman at couple of years ago, the gig economy was coming some point in the future and look at that in further forward, and it brought the discussion back inside the detail—but why have those countries not progressed? Overton window. Now it is covid-19 that is taking us On the issue of the pilot, not only do we think that the down the next stage of the path. I fear that if we do concept is deeply flawed, but it is certainly not currently nothing now, it will be covid-22, a drop in the economy, operable. or a serious escalation of the gig economy. I am asking that we do something now before it is too late. We do The Government remain wholly unconvinced of the not know what the final straw will be. We need to plan case for UBI. We have taken steps to address the financial now, to go forward. It is wise to fasten the seatbelt implications of the pandemic, and that has been possible before hitting the wall. The Minister believes that the only against the backdrop of a welfare system that has financial cost is too high to justify UBI. I fear that the been technically capable of meeting the challenge of cost to society without a UBI will be far higher. hugely increased demand, and that targets appropriate Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). support for those who need it most. More than 1 million people who needed to access UC quickly have Philip Davies (in the Chair): In order to allow the safe been able to receive funds within 72 hours and more exit of hon. Members participating in this item of than 90% of all claims have been paid in full and on business and the safe arrival of those participating in time. That is a record of which I am proud. The the next, I suspend the House for two minutes. pandemic has shown that universal credit is the right approach for the United Kingdom. It simplifies the 11 am benefits system, promotes and incentivises work, and Sitting suspended. 75WH 13 OCTOBER 2020 Fiscal Support for Events Industry: 76WH Covid-19 Fiscal Support for Events Industry: aspiring young talent? Having tried unsuccessfully to Covid-19 get clarity from the Prime Minister on what he meant by “get back into work”, I hope the Minister can 11.3 am perhaps shed some light on this conundrum. Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): I beg to move, For those who are not sure what to retrain to do, the That this House has considered fiscal support for the events UK Government provided a handy quiz to help people industry during the covid-19 outbreak. find a suitable new career. It is a bit like one of those It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, personality quizzes in glossy magazines that might be Mr Davies. There are plenty of events happening these found in a dentist’s waiting room, and the results are days, but unfortunately they are not the kind of events equally ridiculous.On social media, I sawa choir conductor that we want. Ever-changing political events related to who was not too happy when advised to consider colon the global pandemic have devastatingly disrupted our hydrotherapy as an alternative career. I had a go myself, ability to take part in the more fun kind of events and and it suggested that I could perhaps be a football our ability to mix and gather safely. Usually, the UK referee, although taking a second job that has something has a truly world-beating, year-round programme of to do with football is clearly not something that a cultural activities: music, theatre, arts and outdoor festivals, serious politician would consider—except, of course, as well as conferences, ceremonies and shows—events the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, the hon. Member that happen thanks to the collective efforts of a diverse, for Moray (Douglas Ross), who clearly has too much trained and skilled workforce that employs around 1 time on his hands. My hon. Friend the Member for million people. Those events bring us together, inspire Gordon (Richard Thomson) suggested to me yesterday us and lift our spirits. Sadly, since March 2020, the that if the Prime Minister were to take the quiz, it might cultural map of events has been all but wiped out, and suggest that he retrain as a Prime Minister. those events have been held only via computer screens. The UK Government’s response to the crisis faced by This vibrant sector has been brought to its knees. the events industry has been crass, to say the least. They I support the need to take action to tackle the increasing showed a real lack of understanding of the value of the spread of the virus. Balancing public health against sector and the far-reaching consequences of letting economic damage is clearly very tricky, although there these jobs simply vanish. These are skilled professionals is no single step more important than controlling the in viable careers that form the backbone of the UK’s virus when it comes to getting things running again cultural and economic life. Why on earth would the properly in the events sector. Not only are professionals Government give up on them? in the events industry keen to follow the rules, but they could help to frame future solutions. The British Events Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In my constituency, Industry Coalition has members who have expertise in and in my council area of Ards and North Down, planning and running safe events of all shapes and culture and the arts are vital. It is a core issue for the sizes. They would be delighted to lend their health and council, to promote jobs and help things go forward. safety knowledge and industry experience to help frame Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, when it comes to future regulation. They have innovative ideas, such as a events, whether in partnership with the National Trust formal BEIC safety kitemark system, by means of or events companies, the council has a key role to play? which events could demonstrate adherence to standards, boosting public confidence and getting people back Owen Thompson: I absolutely agree. Local government through the gates when guidance allows. I hope that the across the islands plays a critical role in making sure Minister will be willing to work with industry on that, events can takeplace,and in supporting events—particularly and I look forward to his response. community events, which I will come to later. Last month, I asked the Prime Minister what to tell It may be that, as some have suggested—I could constituents in successful, viable businesses whose jobs never be so cruel as to do so—those in the Treasury do rely on live events, and he said that it was better that not actually value the arts, but they must surely respect they “get back into work”. I am sure that they would all the billions of pounds the arts bring into the coffers. If agree; everyone in the events industry is itching to get they do not understand the value of that income, perhaps back to doing what they are so brilliant at doing, and to they need to take the retraining website quiz themselves. pursue careers that they worked so hard to achieve. Let us consider outdoor events alone. I thank the incredible However, I have to say that the Prime Minister’s response volunteers at the “We Make Events” campaign for was somewhat puzzling, given that my constituents still compiling the figures. Across the UK, 141.5 million cannot do what they want under the Government’s people attended outdoor events in 2018, spending restrictions, which either prevent events from running £39.5 billion and supporting 589,000 jobs, with a gross altogether or allow them merely to limp along in a value added of £30.4 billion. financially unviable way. Weare very good at running events. In these challenging Recently, the Chancellor made it clear what the Prime times, we need to look at what we are good at, to Minister meant by getting back into work: that people support, encourage and protect those jobs. The great from all walks of life should retrain. To press that thing about this massive economic generator is that it is message, a Government-backed poster is doing the rounds the opposite of London-centric. It meets the Government’s featuring a young ballet dancer and rather gloomy text, proclaimed levelling-up agenda and it provides jobs which says that her next job could be in cyber but she right across these isles, no more so than in my Midlothian does not know it yet. Forget the dedication, blood, constituency, which not only has a proud tradition of sweat and tears and years of professional training for a community events and gala days, but is home to many career in the arts, and forget following passions—get businesses and freelancers who work in the world’s most stuck behind a computer. It is a worthy job, no doubt, fabulous and famous global events right on our doorstep but is that really the message we want to send to our in Edinburgh. 77WH Fiscal Support for Events Industry: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Fiscal Support for Events Industry: 78WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Owen Thompson] retention and self-employed support schemes.An estimated 3 million people have been excluded, many in the arts, In Scotland, prior to the pandemic, the creative industry in jobs that do not quite fit the spreadsheets—Excel or was among the fastest growing sectors, supporting around not. Individuals who lost their income overnight could £9 billion worth of activity in the Scottish economy. lose their home or be left to struggle in poverty if they With its contribution growing by 62% from 2008 to are not given support until the sector can get back on 2017, across the UK the creative industries were growing its feet. at five times the rate of the economy as a whole, No doubt the Minister will point to the £1.5 billion contributing £111.7 billion in gross value added, and culture recovery fund. That is essential and will be creating jobs at three times the rate of the UK average crucial for much of the infrastructure and keeping in all parts of the country. many venues alive, but a comparison with the billions These businesses are not just viable; they are essential that the arts generates each year really puts it into to the UK’s growth and recovery from the crisis. Culture perspective. Also, it does little for boots on the ground. and events are not frivolous add-ons, or optional luxuries As the We Make Events survey that was published when other more serious jobs are taken care of. They today shows, the vast majority in the live events sector are central to our heritage, happiness and mental health— do not benefit from the fund. I understand it is not fully part of what it means to be a human being. This crisis allocated yet, so I hope the Government will consider has surely shown us just how valuable the arts are in extending its remit to cover the full range of the live creating resilient communities. Hard times have been events supply chain. eased by music, art and creativity, as people look for Like the furlough replacement, the fund appears to ways to come together virtually, while we cannot do it be targeted at regional lockdowns. Sadly, it will not face to face. reach many of the businesses that we have discussed Nobody in the sector is simply sitting back holding today. The Chancellor famously said he will do whatever out for handouts. They want to work. Businesses are it takes, but he is falling short when it comes to the innovating and finding ways to adapt, and people are live events sector and the specific challenges that need taking jobs wherever they can find them to survive. to be addressed. I invite the Minister to commit to a Performers are looking for platforms to share their meeting with industry representatives from the We talent in innovative ways, such as “Stars in their Homes”— Make Events campaign, which would be more than run by a constituent of mine—in which performers take happy to work with him to find a solution to help the to Facebook at the weekend to bring a bit of joy into industry move forward. It has set out its asks that are homes across the country. The fact remains, however, vital to the sector in a way that will work, and it has a that all sorts of skilled professionals dependent on live realistic financial plan supported by the CBI. Its events have been left in the cold with very little support: campaign, like the industry itself, is a global leader, people in staging, lighting, security,audio-visual technology, having spread to 28 countries around the world. Are we sound engineers, promoters, planners, hospitality suppliers, going to let such expertise wither as other countries photographers, florists, technology manufacturers—the recognise the need for support, or can we actually list goes on. All of that is before we get into the associated recognise the benefits that the arts and culture bring to hospitality links and benefits, but given the time constraints, society? that is perhaps one for another day. The decision on what is viable seems to me utterly 11.16 am misguided. There are so many examples of successful The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): businesses, such as the audio-visual technology specialists It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, in my constituency, VisionEvents, which were operating Mr Davies.I congratulate the hon. Member for Midlothian a booming business at the top of their game internationally (Owen Thompson) on securing this important debate. before covid-19 cut their legs out from under them. It is the second or third occasion that we have encountered These are creative, self-sufficient companies doing fantastic each other in this forum. He raises significant issues work to adapt to virtual events, but there are limits and that I will try to deal with forensically. I draw attention constraints on the income gap that can be covered to the presence of the Under-Secretary of State for virtually in the absence of live events. Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the There is and always will be a demand for events, but if Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), we allow these jobs to be lost now, it will be very who has responsibility for sport, heritage and tourism, difficult to pick up again where we left off and we will which also covers the events industry. We are working lose the competitive advantage that the UK currently with my colleague the Exchequer Secretary to deal enjoys. The Minister will no doubt draw attention to the forensically with the challenges that the hon. Member job support scheme extension, albeit limited, and the for Midlothian set out in his excellent speech. fiscal support for the arts. That is welcome; I make no As the hon. Gentleman powerfully highlighted, the bones about that. There are clearly details still to come, past months have been intensely difficult for the businesses but the question remains whether that goes far enough and workers in the events industry. The hon. Member to protect the industry and support those on the brink. for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned the challenges These funds may help venues and organisations to plan in his local authority area, which are mirrored across and adapt, but huge networks of individuals and support the country. Local authorities are trying to work services, such as those in the hire and supply sector, are constructively with the sector in a very difficult set of making huge losses every day. circumstances. The Secretary of State for Digital, Sadly, so far the announcement does not look like it Culture, Media and Sport and the Chancellor both will stave off mass redundancies. Crucially, it still misses recognise the energy that the industry devoted to the all those freelancers who fell through the gaps in the job pilot tests in early September to explore how individual 79WH Fiscal Support for Events Industry: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Fiscal Support for Events Industry: 80WH Covid-19 Covid-19 events could be run safely.I acknowledge how frustrating discretionary grant. In addition, 94% of events venues it must be that, despite the success of those tests, they have been able to make use of the coronavirus job have been overtaken by circumstances. retention scheme. Last month, we committed to helping The hon. Member for Midlothian mentioned the We viable businesses facing lower demand due to covid-19 Make Events campaign a couple of times. I am sure my through the new job support scheme. All small and hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will be keen to engage medium-sized businesses, including thousands in the with that campaign, if he has not done so already. I events sector, are eligible. On Friday, the Chancellor recognise the innovative work that different sectors of announced a further extension to that scheme, which the economy are doing to try to overcome the different will provide temporary help to businesses that have challenges and how they affect different sectors. been legally required to close as a direct result of the covid-19 restrictions. We intend that extension to cover Last month, in the light of rising covid-19 cases, the those directly employed by business conference venues Prime Minister had to pause the reopening of business and exhibition centres that have been unable to open as events, and yesterday he set out how we will further a result of the further measures to address the rising simplify and standardise local rules by introducing a cases of covid-19 announced on 22 September. three-tiered system of local covid alert levels in England. Given the challenges facing the sector, it is imperative We will be setting out more detail in due course. I that we fully understand the long-term impact of covid-19 recognise that it would be ideal for me to announce that upon it. Contrary to the hon. Gentleman’s prompts, I now, but a lot of work is going on to clarify it. It is will not reiterate all the Government support schemes important that we have clarity in the communications, for the arts, but I will say that, as a former Arts but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are working Minister, I still communicate a lot with the arts sector. very closely to ensure that that is clear and is made Indeed, I received a message at the weekend from Darren available as urgently as possible. Sadly, we cannot promise Henley, the chief executive of the Arts Council, and I to save every job or every business, but I can commit feel passionate about the sector’s concerns. We are that we will continue to listen to representations from committed to continuing to reappraise what has happened across the House and monitor the impact of our economic so far. That is why the Treasury has been working support, and we stand ready to evolve our policies as intensively with employers, delivery partners, industry required. groups and other Departments to gain a deeper insight This is an extremely challenging time for a sector that into the conditions that would make it financially viable I grew very close to and have great affection for, and I for the events industry to reopen in a covid-secure way. empathise with it very clearly and strongly in the challenges Some of the sector has benefited from the Government that it faces. I can assure the hon. Member for Midlothian support packages to safeguard the economy during the that his representations in his very fair and balanced pandemic. That includes the broader measures of deferral speech will be taken account of, and I can assure the of VAT payments and a year-long rates holiday for wider audience this morning that we will do everything eligible businesses, although I acknowledge that for we can to bring clarity as soon as possible. Indeed, I some, whose rateable value falls below the threshold, shall be talking to the Under-Secretary, who is responsible that has not been something that they have been able to for this sector, after this debate has concluded. That use. I am not presenting all these interventions as fully concludes my remarks. I hope that I have responded in comprehensive for every business, and the Chancellor, some wayeffectively to the remarks that the hon. Gentleman as the hon. Member for Midlothian acknowledged, has made. said that. Question put and agreed to. Some businesses have benefited from a range of Government-backed and guaranteed loan schemes, 11.23 am the retail, hospitality and leisure grant fund and the Sitting suspended. 81WH 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 82WH Covid-19 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: founded in 1824 by Sir William Hillary. Its establishment Covid-19 has led to the saving of more than 143,000 lives, the creation of an international arm that seeks to prevent drowning, and the setting up of 238 lifeboat stations [STEWART HOSIE in the Chair] comprising 445 lifeboats,including 164 all-weather lifeboats, 274 inshore lifeboats, and seven hovercraft. According 2.30 pm to its latest statistics, in 2020, up to July, the RNLI had Stewart Hosie (in the Chair): Before we begin, I launched its lifeboat crews 3,143 times—equivalent to remind Members that there have been some changes to 16 times a day—saved 95 lives and assisted 584 people normal practice, to support social distancing. Please at sea. sanitise the microphones using the cleaning materials Remarkably, those results come at absolutely no cost provided before you use them. Respect the one-way to the taxpayer. The RNLI, as a charitable body, is system in the Chamber. That means going in one door, reliant on donations from members of the public, and and walking this way, and leaving by the other door. generous legacies. In 2019, it raised £52.4 million through Members can speak only from the horseshoe. There is donations, and £126.5 million through legacies, while it no requirement to stay after speaking, although Members has an expenditure of £181.5 million. However, the may wish to do so. In an oversubscribed debate, if there RNLI expects a 20% decline in annual income by the are Members waiting to speak in what used to be the end of 2020. As a result of covid, fundraising activities Public Gallery, please make way for them after you have have been restricted. RNLI shops have been closed, and spoken. I think that that covers it. Finally, this is quite a the legacies that make a significant proportion of its busy debate, with 10 or 11 additional Members down to budget are expected to decline. Alongside that, there speak. If Members stick to four minutes each, everyone has been a significant fall in expenditure—17%—with will be called. the temporary closure of the RNLI college, and reduced lifeguard cover on beaches because of a shorter season. 2.31 pm Thirty per cent. of RNLI staff have been put on furlough Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): I beg to move, or other wage subsidy schemes, and there has been a That this House has considered the future of the RNLI and halt to building development, and a pause in boat independent lifeboats after the covid-19 outbreak. construction. The RNLI has, as an organisation, been It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, able to build up healthy reserves over the years. While Mr Hosie, and I thank you for being here. Across the it is fiercely independent without Government funding, United Kingdom, there are 60 independent lifeboat I would like to make it clear that the purpose of this stations and 238 Royal National Lifeboat Institution debate is not to change any part of the RNLI’s funding lifeboat stations, covering more than 19,000 miles of structure. My concern is not the provision of the services our coastline. Each of those stations protects and serves that the RNLI is able to roll out this year, but what will coastal communities and those who choose to visit our be the impact of 2020 in 2021, and what lessons we have spectacular coastline. Any Member of Parliament who learned from this period over 2020. Expenditure will is fortunate enough to represent a coastal community have to rise again, as training, infrastructure development has become well accustomed to the sight of lifeboat and new equipment purchases cannot be put off indefinitely. crews on training exercises or responding to an emergency Ensuring that the RNLI continues to benefit from call-out. We should all be aware of the important work strong public support will be essential in maintaining that the RNLI and our independent lifeboats do, and those services. comprehend how incredibly difficult 2020 has been for The Government can play their part. By bringing the that frontline emergency service. There can be no more RNLI into the fold and upgrading the channels of emotive sight than witnessing the launching of a lifeboat communication, we can improve its ability to respond with its crew of volunteers responding at speed from rapidly to situations. I propose that the RNLI be included their day jobs, and heading at pace to an emergency in the fold with the four paid emergency services regarding situation of almost unknown proportions. A single call the level of information and communication it receives. from the coastguard operations centre puts into action That information and communication must come before months and years of training. Crews are mustered, policy implementation. An example over the summer boats are launched in record time, and victims are could not be more clearcut: the RNLI came under reached at eye-watering speed. That rapid response sustained attack by the media for not being able to system, delivered by volunteers who are on call 24/7, provide 100% lifeguard coverage on our beaches. The 365 days of the year, is supported by a comprehensive Government were at fault, because they failed to give lifesaving network of stations covering the whole United significant advance warning to the RNLI about changes Kingdom. to lockdown measures. The RNLI was not at fault, and The purpose of the debate is to recognise the challenges responded in an extraordinary way. Fortunately for all that covid-19 has placed before independent lifeboats of us, its response ensured that 177 beaches had lifeguard and the RNLI, but also to celebrate the important and coverage: a remarkable achievement that shows not extraordinary work done by our lifeboat crews across only the RNLI’s resilience but its flexibility in responding the country. I have a number of suggestions for the at times of crisis. Government, and for Members of Parliament, and I hope that we shall be able to build on today’s debate to Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): My hon. Friend give further support, and act to ensure that our lifesaving is making a most excellent speech, and will know that coastal coverage is never compromised. my home coastal community of Eastbourne has one of I should probably start by highlighting the differences the oldest and busiest stations in the United Kingdom. between the RNLI and our independent lifeboats. As Does he share my dismay that, when the RNLI was we all know, the RNLI is a long-standing organisation challenged over the summer period in maintaining that 83WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 84WH Covid-19 Covid-19 secure presence on the beaches and out at sea, it came in an independent lifeboat meets me and other representatives for criticism for picking up those who had become from independent lifeboats, to discuss how we might stranded or distressed in small boats? The RNLI has a ably and effectively embolden the voice of our independent policy of preservation of life at sea. We would want it to lifeboats. be recognised as the hero that it is, and in no way come Such an association might initially just record the in for any public criticism for its work in that area. data of each station from the operating expense to the capital expense cost, from budget submission to call-out Anthony Mangnall: My hon. Friend says it better information and response times.From there,the information than I could, and I will only say that I wholeheartedly could be collated, documented and centralised, to create agree with her. Perhaps in the near future I can come on a clearer picture of the work done by our incredible a visit to her lifeboat station. Excluding an emergency independent lifeboats. service from information that is likely to increase the That association—which, for brevity’s sake, we shall demand on its services is not only inexplicable, it is call the ILA—would create an informal organisational dangerous to members of the British public. Before I structure around independent lifeboats and help to come on to independent lifeboats, it is particularly ensure that their voice is heard by the UK Government welcome to hear that the RNLI recently signed a and members of the public. We could go one step memorandum of understanding with the Maritime and further and encourage the nomination of a representative Coastguard Agency. After hundreds of years of working from one of the 60 independent lifeboats, so as to be together, that official step formally affirms the collective able to educate, inform and engage members of the aspiration to save lives at sea, and emphasises the dedication public and Members of Parliament. Such a representation and determination to provide the UK and its people could then represent all independent lifeboats on the with another century of coastal coverage. UK search and rescue body, rather than the current This year has seen an incredible rise in domestic system where the representation of independent lifeboats tourism. My own constituency has never felt better. The is made through the RNLI. I hope everyone is keeping town of Salcombe in my constituency saw a turnover of up with this. 35,000 people per week, and the figure for Dartmouth I hope the Minister will consider supporting these was only slightly lower. The dramatic increase in coastline proposals. I am conscious of the time and I know that a visitors undoubtedly heaps pressure and demand on number of hon. Members want to contribute to this our independent lifeboats and the RNLI. The whole debate. I have two quick final points. First, we have all House will agree with me that they have responded in a recognised that fundraising efforts have been significantly manner that is a credit to their professionalism, training curtailed due to covid-19, and for small, independent and structure. Our independent lifeboats are derived lifeboats fundraising is a lifeline, year on year. Coupled from the RNLI and the Maritime and Coastguard with the expensive cost of personal protective equipment, Agency. As the RNLI and the MCA have changed their which has to be more durable at sea, they have suffered structures, communities have often stepped forward huge impacts on their budgets. and maintained their lifeboat stations and crews as I wrote to the Minister on this matter over the summer, independent, self-funding entities. My own constituency with a great deal of support from hon. Members attending is home to the Hope Cove Life Boat, one of the UK’s this debate. I thank him for his response. The letter 60 independent lifeboats. I joined it this summer to raised my concern around PPE costs for independent discuss the impact of covid on its operations, and lifeboats and the RNLI. The RNLI is not calling for committed to holding a Westminster Hall debate. I am any form of reimbursement, but many of the independent delighted to be able to deliver on that promise. That lifeboat stations are. I ask the Minister to look again at said, I am now acutely aware of the challenges faced by that letter and to set up a fund that can be made our independent lifeboats: the lack of recognition for available to independent lifeboat stations, so that they lifeboats independent from the RNLI, organisational can recoup their costs around PPE. A temporary fund issues, lower levels of funding with the phasing-out of would not only be a significant step in the right direction the Government’s grant scheme and, of course, the but would be widely welcomed. impact of covid. I will address each of those points. Secondly, the rescue boat grant scheme was set up in Identity is key, and identity challenges are just that: 2014 as a five-year scheme of £5 million. The last phase challenging. Our independent lifeboats have great difficulty of bidding ended last year.If my information is correct—or stepping out of the shadow of the RNLI. More often my spies are correct—I understand there is a possibility than not, those who donate to the RNLI think they are that the scheme could be reintroduced. I hope the contributing to all lifeboat stations across the United Minister will recognise, given the attendance today, that Kingdom. This is not the case. Today’s debate is, I hope, our lifeboat stations are of significant importance to the first in many steps in helping to raise awareness many hon. Members, and reintroducing that rescue about our independent lifeboat stations and to inform boat grant scheme would be welcomed on both sides of members of the public about the difference between the House and across the country. Groups such as the independent lifeboats and the RNLI. Severn Area Rescue Association have told me that My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Mims another five years of that grant would provide the Davies) held an event in Parliament a few years ago that breathing space for independent lifeboats to recover was attended by many members of the independent from 2020 and plan long into the future. lifeboat community. I understand that at that meeting Of course, the work of independent lifeboat stations proposals for an independent lifeboat association were and the RNLI would not be possible without the raised. I would like to build on this idea, but rather than extraordinary help of the National Coastwatch Institution. create another bureaucratic body that ties down hard- With 57 stations and over 2,500 watchkeepers, it works working volunteers, I would respectfully ask that each intimately with lifeboat stations to maintain a watchful Member of Parliament whose constituency is home to eye across our coastline. If any Member of Parliament 85WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 86WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Anthony Mangnall] out to sea. The Northern Ireland fishing industry regularly requires the use of the lifeboat service and puts on the finds themselves walking along the south west coastal record its thanks to those who put their lives on the line path, as I did this summer, I urge them to visit Prawle to save fishermen. Point Coastguard station. Not only will they be greeted We deal with what I call our 999 response in very by a magnificent view, but they will see the extraordinary different ways. People lift the phone whenever they have work done by the NCI. I hope that any decision made a fire and they know that the fire service will respond today and in the future will consider how integral these with no thought about what is happening—they know networks are and why we need to maintain them. that the fire service will be there. We should put the I have spoken at length about the value of the RNLI RNLI and those independents on the same platform as and our independent lifeboats. I hope the Minister will the fire service. Let us be truthful: they respond to the recognise the necessity of ensuring clear channels of need to save life. An island nation surrounded by sea, communication with the RNLI and to bring it into the this summer has been probably very typical of what is fold with the four other paid emergency services. As for happening. Many people did not go away but bought the independent lifeboats, there is a great deal of work pieces of equipment, whether a bodyboard or surfboard, that we can do as Members of Parliament. The Government jet skis or whatever, and used our own local resources should support our steps to create this new ILA, renew rather than going abroad. Unfortunately, many of those the rescue boat grant scheme and, of course, cover the people came into difficulties, and the coastguard, the costs of PPE. RNLI and our independent life services were the people As one Twitter user said to me in response to Parliament’s they called upon to help. On many occasions, they have digital engagement on this topic, we should always not been able to recover somebody and have had to support those who risk their lives to save others. I am in go back the next day, giving of their time voluntarily awe of the volunteers who brave the harshest elements to do so. to rescue those who find themselves in trouble at sea. I support totally what has been put forward here this These key-sector workers need our support, our applause afternoon, and I hope that we can achieve some sustainable and our commitment. I hope this will be the first of future funding for our emergency services at sea. many debates, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. 2.50 pm Stewart Hosie (in the Chair): Before we continue the debate, I will say two things. First, if the hon. Member Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): As I said earlier for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart) wants to take a in an intervention, Eastbourne has one of the oldest seat in the horseshoe, she is more than welcome. Secondly, lifeboat stations in the United Kingdom. In fact, it was 11 Members are due to speak before the summing up, established in 1822, and the very first boat was donated which will begin at 3.30 pm, so if everyone could speak by the MP “Mad Jack”. So began its story, and over the for just shy of four minutes, everything will be perfect. last 200 years, 700 lives have been saved by the local lifeboat. As I am sure other Members will also say, 2.46 pm those saved include holidaymakers, visitors and would-be Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP): I congratulate paddlers, kayakers and sailors. Sadly, our RNLI station the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) on in Eastbourne also performs a service that is perhaps securing this debate. We are all probably going to agree; unique to our area—recovery at the foot of Beachy this is fairly uncontroversial. However, I will highlight a Head. What our crew experience is truly challenging, number of points. and their bravery and fortitude are quite incredible. In Northern Ireland, every bit of politics is local. We Indeed, the Eastbourne crewmen must be made of have the largest inland waterway in the United Kingdom, something extraordinary, because each year their service Lough Neagh, and Lough Neagh Rescue, an independent to our town and its visitors is celebrated by the Salvation lifeboat service, which does a fantastic job. We also have Army. The relationship between the two might seem Foyle Search and Rescue and Lagan Search and Rescue, curious, but it extends back many years in our local both of which are independent. We really do rely heavily history, to a time when brave crewmen stepped up to upon them. My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford support the bandsmen, who were under attack by local (Jim Shannon) would usually be here, so it would be people for having the temerity to play their music on a remiss of me not to mention something relating to Sunday.Ever since, that relationship has been remembered, Strangford on his behalf: we also have Portaferry lifeboat and the gratitude the whole town feels for our crewmen station, an RNLI service that does a fantastic job. is expressed by the Salvation Army in the very important This year has been extremely difficult. Many of the services that take place. On those occasions, we hear of events that would have been organised to raise funds for the lives saved, the rescue attempts made and the generosity these services, including on-street collections, could not of local people. take place. Their finances are critical at the present time. However, many of my constituents and those of Some of them really are finding it difficult to respond. I other Members will be surprised that 94% of the service put on the record my thanks to those who have donated provided by the RNLI is powered by the public, and in and have made a sacrifice for them. Mention has been all sorts of ways. That is something that we would not made of a 20% reduction within the RNLI, but some of want to change or challenge, because there is something the independents are seeing an even greater reduction in truly of value in that giving, over and above pounds and the funding that they have been able to get. These men pence. It says, “We support you, we value you and we and women put their lives at risk to respond; when have regard for the work you do.” The RNLI crews are everybody else wants to get inside the house, they go high-profile and vital. 87WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 88WH Covid-19 Covid-19 Although lockdown meant that the seas were quieter which was a much more pleasurable experience. The than before, it was still generally business as usual. In benign—or relatively benign—conditions that day gave the aftermath, the issues around being covid-secure me an indication and appreciation of the dangers faced have been hugely challenging. However, that challenge by the lifeboat crew, who not only race towards danger has been met. I therefore support my hon. Friend the in far worse conditions, but perform search-and-rescue Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) in his operations in extremely hostile environments. championing of those who save lives at sea, and I put As the lifeboat is independent, the crew are wholly on record my own gratitude and that of everyone in my reliant on their own funding activity. One of the town for the work of the Eastbourne RNLI. consequences of the pandemic, as has been mentioned in the debate, has been the reduced income faced by 2.54 pm search-and-rescue operations. Last year, the lifeboat in Ferryside raised more than £110,000, mostly as a result Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) of substantial grants from the Charities Aid Foundation (Ind): Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Hosie. It is a pleasure to and the Department for Transport. The lifeboat was serve under your chairmanship, and I congratulate the also able to raise substantial sums from local fundraising hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) on securing activity. So far this year, I am informed, they have been this debate and on the positive suggestions he put able to raise only £3,000. forward. The incredible fall in income is clearly not sustainable. Carmarthen East and Dinefwr is a largely landlocked My key ask of the British Government in this debate is constituency, apart from one small enclave along the that they recognise the importance of the rescue boat lower Tywi and Gwendraeth estuaries, encompassing grant fund, under which they have successfully issued the villages of Ferryside and Llansaint. It is an area of about £6 million to lifeboats such as Ferryside since the outstanding beauty. I used to visit it often as a child; my scheme was set up in 2014. It is regrettable that there parents used to take me to the other side of the Tywi, to has been no grant for this financial year. Were the Llansteffan. Every time I go down to that part of the Minister to get to his feet to say that the grant would be world, it takes my breath away. available next year, I am sure that that would go a long Ferryside is an incredibly close-knit community, and way to bringing a smile to all our great lifeboats across at the heart of the community is the independent lifeboat, the British isles. which has served the Tywi, Taff and Gwendraeth estuaries, and Carmarthen bay, since 1835. At the start, until the inter-war period, the lifeboat’s main area of business 2.58 pm was commercial shipping associated with the port of Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve Carmarthen. Captains would say that entering the bay under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I, too, commend area—and leaving it—was by far the most treacherous the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) for part of the journey. securing this debate and for the way in which he constructed Today, the Ferryside lifeboat is an integral part of the his opening remarks, and I think his views will be Saint John Cymru marine division, and call-outs relate shared across the Chamber. mostly to leisure activity in the area. In May 2019, I had Like many other Members, I represent a coastal the pleasure of launching the new Llansteffan ferry, and community and a constituency where people have for I am proud to say that it is probably the safest ferry generations gone to sea for work, secure in the knowledge journey in the British isles, because of the lifeboat in that, should anything ever happen to them, they would Ferryside. be supported by independent lifeboats or the RNLI. Carmarthen bay is of course part of the Bristol For close to 200 years, crews have gone out and put channel, which has the second largest tidal rise and fall their lives at risk to protect and save others who come in the world. That gives an indication of the challenging into unfortunate situations. environment that the crew operate in and of the dangers RNLI Buckie in my constituency is a station that I that they face. The lifeboat offers a 24/7 service and is have visited on many occasions in my time as an elected wholly manned by local people working closely with the representative. I will use today’s debate, if I may, to coastguard. Considering that it is a voluntary service, it make some remarks about Adam Robertson, who died is absolutely incredible that their average launch time is suddenly just days before his 70th birthday. Adam was only eight minutes. an integral part of the Buckie RNLI station and its I have had the honour and privilege of working with operations for more than 30 years. As with many RNLI the team since my election, and I am always impressed or independent lifeboat volunteers, Adam’s professional by the dedication and commitment of everybody involved life was not at sea, but on the land. For 30 years, he had with the lifeboat. Soon after getting elected in 2010, I a career in building control with Moray Council. When was offered the opportunity to experience a trip on the I was a councillor for a decade, I often met Adam in the new lifeboat. It was a perfectly calm day, so I had corridors of council headquarters. We would stop to absolutely no anxiety when I was donning my kit and have a blether, and he was always well informed, but taking my place on the boat. It was not long, however, also generous with his time. He was someone I respected before the water got very choppy out in the bay, and we a lot. were speeding among white horses in a new boat powered Adam initially became involved with the RNLI at by two Suzuki 90 hp engines. Buckie when he helped to organise its annual gala days Exhilarating would certainly be one word to explain as part of its fundraising efforts. He rose through the the experience, but on looking at my pale complexion, I ranks to become responsible for ensuring that the Buckie think the crew decided quickly to return to the safer and lifeboat was always ready to go to sea and for arranging calmer waters of the Tywi river and to head upstream, ambulance support on land when it was required. He 89WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 90WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Douglas Ross] times more lifeboat launches than any other lifeboat station in the UK. We saw the good work that it does was a genuine stalwart of the RNLI and the local in August when, unfortunately, Emily Lewis, who was community for decades. He was also an officer with the 15 years old, suffered a tragic boating accident in the Boys’ Brigade, and for many years he helped to organise Solent. Our heartfelt condolences should be sent to her the annual fireworks display in Portgordon, which draws family. thousands of people to the coastal village every year. As I pay tribute to the work that independent lifeboat a councillor, an MSP and an MP, I always helped with stations and the RNLI do across the UK voluntarily on the stewarding at Portgordon fireworks, and every year behalf of our communities and residents. I want to Adam was there to do the security briefing to ensure make two brief points—you will be glad to hear,Mr Hosie, that everyone knew where they had to go and what they that I will not take up the full five minutes. It is had to do. He did that in a purposeful and powerful, but concerning that, in the current pandemic, independent always respectful, manner. Although we will not be lifeboat stations are facing a triple whammy of difficulty. having Portgordon fireworks this year, when we meet As hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber have again we will remember Adam and all the help he gave mentioned, fundraising efforts have been hampered by that organisation and many others throughout his near the pandemic. As my hon. Friend the Member for 70 years. Totnes said, the RNLI has seen a 20% reduction in its Adam’s wife said: income, but independent lifeboat stations have seen “He was a family man who would do anything for anyone, his much more of a reduction than the RNLI. Hamble love for the community was exactly the same.” lifeboat station is no different: its fundraising efforts for That is what the RNLI and our independent lifeboats most of 2020 have been completely hampered, and its are all about at heart. Groups like the Buckie lifeboat income has reduced. team are filled with community volunteers who sacrifice That has been exacerbated by the Government’sstopping their time to help others. We thank them for their of the inshore grant and by a lack of clarity about the dedication and the work that they do. rescue boat grant fund, which they have been asked to I also want to mention the Moray Inshore Rescue continue and reintroduce next year. The amount of Organisation, based at Findhorn, which is an independent money given to independent lifeboat stations across the lifeboat organisation that does so much. We are indebted country was not enough to help them cope with the in Moray for the work that our independent lifeboat impact of the pandemic on their operations. Operations and the RNLI do day in, day out. They work both at have had to continue during the past year, but with sea and on land, educating our young people about the generally reduced income. With the same number of dangers and the safety that they need to bear in mind. incidents happening on the Solent and across the UK, Their community work right the way through our towns the RNLI and independent lifeboat stations have had to and villages is something that we all respect and congratulate deal with an awful lot. The Government have rightly them on, and it is something we can all get behind. put their hands in their pockets to help the emergency I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for services, but more needs to be done to assist independent Totnes for giving us this opportunity to pay tribute to lifeboat stations across the UK. our independent lifeboats and the RNLI and for allowing My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes mentioned me to put on record my thanks to and admiration of PPE. It is not desirable that the associated costs—especially Adam Robertson for everything he did for Buckie RNLI high at the beginning of the pandemic—have not been for more than 30 years. covered by the Government. I therefore have two main asks. First, will the Minister work with the Ministry of Stewart Hosie (in the Chair): Given that a few speakers Housing, Communities and Local Government to come on the call list are not here, I am pleased to say that the to an arrangement whereby equipment can be provided remaining speakers can now take five minutes. by local authorities, but claimed back as an additional cost due to covid, as we have seen in other areas of the UK, where local authorities can reclaim from central 3.2 pm Government any extra expenditure they have faced Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): It is a pleasure to owing to the pandemic? Will the Minister, as other hon. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie, and to speak Members have asked, also accept that the grant my hon. in a debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member for Friend the Member for Totnes mentioned needs to be Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), who is a doughty champion reintroduced? for his constituency, as we have seen this afternoon. I On both sides of the House today we have heard welcome this debate. examples of how lifeboat stations work tirelessly for our I want briefly to raise awareness of Hamble independent communities and our residents on a voluntary basis. lifeboat station in my constituency. Like lifeboat stations Given what we have heard and what we will hear across in all coastal constituencies, it provides a vital service to the House, the time has come to reward such selflessness constituents. It celebrated its 50th anniversary in 2018. and bravery with a little more help as we face the It is based on the river Hamble, which has some of the pandemic going forward. most difficult navigational circumstances, due to the tides and channels. It serves a major yachting area and the entrance of the UK’sbusiest waterway—Southampton 3.6 pm Water and the Solent. Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I welcome In 2019, the RNLI saved 220 lives and aided an the debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member for average of 26 people a day. My local crew aided people Totnes (Anthony Mangnall). Earlier this summer, two in 100 incidents last year. On average, Hamble has three young boys were caught out by the surf on the coast of 91WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 92WH Covid-19 Covid-19 Hastings. They were carried several hundred metres out As has been said, there is no doubt that fundraising to sea, and one of them could not swim. It could easily has been completely curtailed this year. The annual have turned into a tragedy if not for two brave young Redcar lifeboat fundraising day usually raises about men who were on lifeguard duty that day: Oliver Veness £4,000. This year, just £600 was raised through a virtual and James Blything. They acted swiftly, got the boys event held online. I commend Redcar RNLI for that back to shore and saved their lives. Oliver’s and James’s £600, because it is not easy to raise money online only. actions were nothing short of heroic. That was an incredible achievement. However, it does In our everyday lives, such heroism might be rare, not take a mathematician to realise that £600 is a long but, for those serving in the RNLI, heroism is an way from £4,000. On top of that, a lot of fundraising everyday occurrence. This past year, it is estimated that comes through the Redcar lifeboat ladies guild, and, almost 8,000 lives have been saved by RNLI boats and unfortunately, most of the women in the guild are in the lifeguards. Likewise, it is important to pay tribute to vulnerable category and have been shielding throughout independent lifeboats. Recently I visited the crew and the pandemic, so they have also been unable to raise volunteers at the Pett Level independent rescue boat, money as they usually would. where the brave men and women risk their lives to save The annual cost of running my local lifeboat station, those in distress at sea in the Pett area. They rely which goes up and down depending on the number of completely on fundraising and donations to support shouts, is in the order of £50,000, excluding any out-of- their rescue efforts, and they rely on volunteers to man the-ordinary maintenance that might have to be done to their boats. That vital utility is provided to residents at some of the equipment. We can, therefore, begin to see no cost because of the generosity of the public and the the problems that may arise if the lifeboat station is bravery of volunteers. unable to fundraise in its usual way. The RNLI and independent boats have kept the Nationally, the RNLI faces a predicted shortfall British public safe for centuries, and now they need our of between £20 million and £45 million this year. That help. As with many charities, the coronavirus pandemic is unsustainable for any organisation, not least a charity has hampered their ability to fundraise, and they have such as the RNLI. I want to be clear that I do not struggled to gain access to Government grants. These support any form of nationalisation of the RNLI, and I British institutions need easier access to different kinds am glad that no one else present does, either. It is in of support in order to—no pun intended—stay afloat. troubled waters, and in those circumstances we do not However, that support cannot come at the cost of their need a new captain; we need a lifeboat. That is what I independence. I am a strong believer that decision making think we should be aiming to provide: a helping hand at should be in the hands of the most qualified, and the this difficult time, whether requested or not. Personnel most qualified people to make decisions about rescue at at the Redcar lifeboat station tell me that they are sea are the people who have been doing it for almost incredibly proud of their history as a charity that is 200 years. funded by the community to support the community. Last week marked a birthday celebration, it being 218 years Accessing Government funding might risk decision since the first launch of a lifeboat in Redcar. The calls being made from Whitehall rather than locally, Redcar lifeboats predate the RNLI by about 20 years and that would be a loss not just for the lifeboats, but and we are home to the oldest lifeboat in the UK, the for the people of this country.Any support the Government Zetland, which successfully completed its first rescue in provide to the lifeboat services must protect the December 1802, saving 15 souls. independence of the crews, who are in the business of saving lives. We are incredibly proud of the Redcar lifeboats. As I have said, the cost of running our station is in the order If someone is in distress at sea, someone will come to of £50,000, which goes up and down depending on the save them no matter their background, income or station number of shouts. The lifeboat station personnel tell me in life. The fact that that person will often be a volunteer that during the period of lockdown until now has been is further testament to the heroic spirit that has pushed their busiest summer on record. This is attributed to the forward the lifeboats for centuries and represents some fact that this year was the year of the staycation—the of the best of this country. We need to protect this UKation—where more and more people are staying at institution from not just the financial hardship wrought home and enjoying the sun on the beaches in the UK by the pandemic, but any force that wishes to challenge rather than abroad. its independence. At the very least, we owe those heroes Another, much more harrowing aspect is the mental that. For those reasons, I support what my hon. Friend health crisis we face. A growing number of people are the Member for Totnes is putting forward today. choosing to end their lives at sea due to mental ill health. We need to have an honest conversation—perhaps 3.10 pm not in this debate—about the obvious link between the Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): It is a pleasure to mental health crisis and covid-19. We need to be realistic serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie, in my first about the risks to mental health of lockdown, in the speech in Westminster Hall. I thank my hon. Friend the same way as we are realistic about the risks to physical Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) for securing health of allowing the virus to spread. That, however, is this debate and for making his case so eloquently. It is a for another debate. useful opportunity for us all to pay tribute to our local To finish, I would like to say a big thank you to the lifeboat stations, including my local RNLI station in Redcar lifeboat station for the tireless dedication of its Redcar, which does such an amazing job in the most volunteers, who have gone through all the same personal difficult of circumstances. I also wish to extend my difficulties as the rest of us, arguably more so as a result congratulations to Redcar’s Bob O’Neill, who today has of seeing the effects of potential loss of life at sea. Each received his 50 years’ service award from the RNLI—an one of those volunteers gets the shout and they respond incredible achievement. without hesitation. No matter what they are going 93WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 94WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Jacob Young] Mangnall) for having brought such an important debate to Westminster Hall. Much like everybody else, I will begin through at that particular time, they put themselves at by paying tribute to the volunteers, and particularly to risk to serve others. They deserve our thanks, they deserve the six lifeboat stations in my constituency: the RNLI our praise, and most of all they deserve our support. crews at Wells, Sheringham, Cromer and Happisburgh, and the independent lifeboat stations in the picturesque 3.14 pm villages of Mundesley and Sea Palling. My coastline—as Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): I will not take up most MPs will realise, because they visited my constituency too much time. I am just going to thank the many for their summer recess—is a stunning 50 miles, with six lifeboat crews we have on the Island and then reiterate blue flag beaches. To myself, who grew up there, it is the some of the concerns, which I am sure the Minister is best coastline in the country—[Interruption.] We can listening to. I congratulate him on his reasonably new be controversial, occasionally. role, which is incredibly well deserved. The year 2020 has been very challenging. Tried and The Island is in part defined by our coastline. Indeed, tested lifesaving procedures have had to be adapted to the south-west of the Isle of Wight was a centre for take account of covid-19, and additional personal protective shipwrecks. There were nearly 50 shipwrecks from the equipment has been required. Life-changing decisions late 18th century until the early 20th century, so we were have had to be made about whether the risks of something of a ship graveyard. Many ships sank off the administering CPR outweigh the risks to the crew, and south-west of the Isle of Wight, sadly leading to loss of personnel have had to engage in time-consuming cleansing life, and lifeboats were developed on the south-west and disinfecting routines for all equipment. There has of the Island from the 1840s and 1850s onwards to also, as we have heard, been a rise in demand for address the situation. A great-great-uncle was the coxswain services this year. Although a staycation culture has of the Brooke lifeboat well over a century ago, and I am provided a welcome boost to the local economy, it has very proud of that connection to the lifeboats. also meant vast increases in numbers of visitors to the For the work they have done this summer, I thank coast, and a much higher number of incidents to respond Sandown & Shanklin Independent Lifeboat and Freshwater to. All of this is happening in a climate where the break Independent Lifeboat; the RNLI lifeboats in Cowes, in regular training regimes has risked skill fade—the Yarmouth and Bembridge; the coastguard rescue teams gradual loss of the highly practised and rehearsed in Needles, Bembridge and Ventnor; and Ryde Inshore mechanisms that lifeboat crews put into operation every Rescue. There is a common-sense theme: a lot of people time they launch—and at a time when traditional methods are engaged in helping sailors, swimmers and others of fundraising, through shop events, normal events and who get into trouble at sea, and we on the Island are face-to-face appeals, have reduced greatly,or even stopped very grateful to them. Feedback from Sandown & Shanklin entirely. Independent Lifeboat indicates that it was one of the Carrying a pager 24/7 is a heavy responsibility and a busiest summers on record—possibly the busiest, as great imposition on the everyday lives of our volunteers. many people flocked to the beaches from June onwards. That they continue to give so much of themselves, in People got out and about while the covid pandemic was spite of these challenges, is inspirational. They deserve at its height, and the Island was absolutely packed from all the support that we can give them. August onwards. That meant that many people were As we have heard, the RNLI faces a shortfall in out on the water and the lifeboats were busier than ever. funding of about £20 million this year. Independent Combined with that busier-than-ever period, significant lifeboat stations typically have operating costs of about fundraising has been impossible this year, so I hope £30,000 to £40,000 and are in a similarly precarious very much that the Minister will take on board what I position. In considering how we might help, we need to and other right hon. and hon. Members have said about bear in mind that the RNLI and independent stations the need to provide some slight additional support. have traditionally resisted asking for or accepting That could mean reintroducing the rescue boat grant Government funding. For instance, the RNLI has been fund, which was an exceptionally good idea brought in self-sufficient for the entirety of its 196-year history. by a previous Government in 2014. Is there any way in Although there have been huge technological and which we can bring that back into being, or at least technical advances in life saving, the business of saving provide funding for the protective equipment that both lives at sea is much the same as it always was. Lifeboat the independent and the RNLI lifeboats have had to organisations are cautious about accepting money from buy? Most of the independent lifeboats in my constituency Government because they do not want their work to be have funding for the year ahead, but, depending on influenced or adversely affected by external changes in what happens next year, they might start to get nervous policy, politics or funding that might put their vital about their cash flow and their ability to raise funds in work at risk. Put simply, they want the freedom to do order to continue doing the incredibly important work what they do best, in the way that they know best—and to which we have all paid tribute. it is the best. Britain’s lifeboat crews lead the world and, The Island is at the centre of global sailing and it has increasingly,are responsible for training lifesaving operations many beaches. We know of the vulnerabilities faced by and organisations in other countries. people at sea, and everyone involved in rescuing them is If we are to provide meaningful forms of financial very important to my constituency. support, we must first establish the strong principle that there are no strings attached to it and that the Government 3.18 pm will not seek, as we have heard time and again today, to Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): It is a pleasure influence those organisations. We must also consider to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie, and I not just lifeboats, but all voluntary lifesaving organisations thank my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony around the country that are in similar positions to the 95WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 96WH Covid-19 Covid-19 RNLI and independent lifeboat stations. What about The hon. Gentleman had another key ask about mountain rescue teams, dog search and rescue, and bringing these organisations into the fold, in terms of drone piloting groups assisting with coastal and inland communications and emergency services. That is a valid search? All those organisations have had to bear the point. We all know the stories of what happened when additional cost of PPE, cleaning fluids and equipment, the covid restrictions were lifted. Many hon. Members which have been a necessary part of lifesaving during have spoken about the fact that people flocked to the covid-19. None would have been able to anticipate these beaches in huge numbers, which put a strain on the costs, or build them into its fundraising plans for 2020. RNLI in terms of lifeguards and manual stations, and Some kind of grant fund—possibly, as we have heard, on getting the PPE in time. It is important that cognisance the rescue boat fund—to reimburse those costs would is taken of that. be fair and reasonable, but only if it is open to all It was good that the hon. Gentleman set out the voluntary lifesaving organisations, recognising the fact problems of independent stations as well. The bare fact that it is not only lifeboat crews that have had to incur is that, unfortunately, they tend to live in the shadow of this kind of expenditure. the RNLI in terms of fundraising. People sometimes In conclusion, we owe all our life savers an immense mix up where their donations have gone and do not debt of gratitude. Not only do they save lives at sea and realise that the independent stations have to be funded elsewhere, but they do so at enormous personal cost. separately. I hope the Minister will take that on board. We heard from the hon. Member for South Antrim. 3.23 pm As a wee aside, he is the only Member with the same Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): It is name of a lifeboat station. A town in Scotland has a a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. lifeboat station that has been there for 140 years, and it Like everybody else, I congratulate the hon. Member shares his surname. He highlighted that Northern Ireland for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) on bringing forward has the largest inland body of water, at Lough Neagh, this debate. We call it a debate, but it is not a debate in which is also reliant on volunteers to do the important its truest sense, because everyone here agrees on the work of rescuing people. good work that is done by the RNLI and the independent The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Caroline Ansell) lifeboat stations. said that she has one of the oldest lifeboat stations and Not for the first time, I am a bit of an oddity that the original boat was donated by an MP.I think she speaking in this debate. I am the only one who has was throwing down the gauntlet to youse guys in the spoken so far who does not have a coastal community, Chamber. As I have a landlocked constituency, I do not so I cannot refer to a local station that I have visited or feel the same pressure as everyone else. with which I have close links. It is, however, a testament to the work of these organisations and their importance The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr to their local communities that so many MPs have (Jonathan Edwards) spoke about Ferryside independent wanted to pay tribute to them and stick up for them. lifeboat. He highlighted the fact that the average launch time is eight minutes, which illustrates how vital the A common theme of the debate has been to point out work these guys do—the training, the preparation and that lifeboat stations are manned by volunteers. They getting out to sea in that time—is for saving lives. It was are the ones who put their lives at risk when others are also interesting to hear him talk about taking a boat in danger. Clearly, as the hon. Member for South Antrim trip in what he thought were benign conditions, but (Paul Girvan) said, they go to sea in conditions that which made him seasick and he had to turn around. make us want to shelter in our houses away from the That is a salutary lesson about the actual conditions in weather. I want to put on the record my own testament which these guys go out to sea. to the work that these guys do. The hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) paid Another common theme is fundraising and the impact personal tribute to Adam Robertson, illustrating how that covid has had on those activities that cannot now organisations can rely and depend on certain key individuals. go ahead. For the RNLI, that will leave a shortfall of up Someone who donated 30 years to Buckie RNLI certainly to £45 million. We have also heard that it is much deserves to have that tribute paid to him. Obviously, my harder for independents to undergo their fundraising best wishes go to his family. The hon. Gentleman also activities. I hope that the Minister was listening. Another highlighted the work of the Moray independent inshore issue is the additional cost of PPE associated with organisation. It is important to acknowledge that these covid. If the Government could do something about organisations also do education and preventive work. that, there would be a lot of happy MPs in this Chamber. Ideally, people would never have to be rescued, but we The hon. Member for Totnes set out the case well. never quite get there, so education is certainly important. Even at the outset, he spoke about the emotive sight of the launch of a lifeboat, because we know what is at That brings me back to another important thing that stake for the crew and the people being rescued. The the hon. Member for Eastbourne said. She spoke about fact is that these people are on call 24/7, 365 days a year. having to deal with trauma of Beachy Head. We are The bare statistics about the RNLI show that 143,000 lives discussing saving lives, but these crews also have to have been saved over the years. What better testament deal with the trauma of recovering dead bodies. What could be paid? The hon. Gentleman highlighted the they have to deal with can lead to mental health pressures organisation’s expenditure of £181.5 million, which shows and trauma, so that is another reason to pay tribute to how much it has to rely on volunteers to raise that them. money and how significant a shortfall can be. We are The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes) talking about a shortfall of up to £45 million, which is a paid tribute to Hamble station, which is having its huge percentage. I reiterate my plea to the Government 50th anniversary.He highlighted the effect on fundraising to do something. locally and the need for the Government to reconsider 97WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 98WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Alan Brown] beach; that is the one thing that we do not have in Manchester, so I will not compete on the territory of the on the rescue boat fund, which other hon. Members hon. Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker) about also suggested, so I hope that the Minister will say who here today has the best beach. It is a pleasure to something positive about that grant fund in summing serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie, and it is great up the debate. to be back in Westminster Hall. I agree with the hon. We heard from the hon. Member for Hastings and Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) that this is an Rye (Sally-Ann Hart), who paid tribute to Oliver and opportunity to celebrate the work of the RNLI and James, lifeguards who, crucially, saved two young boys independent lifeboat associations, and I congratulate who had got into difficulties. Again, that type of personal him on securing the debate. What was really good was story is testament to the importance of what these guys the powerful personal testimonies of people in the room do. Funding has become critical, and we heard the first today. I will point out just a few of them. pun of the day—stay afloat. Fortunately,the hon. Member The hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) referred for Redcar (Jacob Young) was hot on her heels with a to Adam and a lifetime’s dedication of work to the pun about troubled waters. But again, these things RNLI. He is a stalwart of the community.I bet Members illustrate the fact that funding is so important. The hon. know Adams in coastal communities up and down our Gentleman also highlighted his local station having the land, and we could not do without them. The hon. busiest summer on record. A recurring theme has been Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes) talked about the that staycations and local tourism are putting additional very sad death of Emily Lewis. May I say, on behalf of pressures on these volunteer organisations. the Opposition Front Bench, that we send our condolences We heard from the hon. Member for Isle of Wight to the family? (Bob Seely). There are several crews on the Island. They were too many for me to list; I could not write them I join the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann down fast enough, but again, that is indicative of island Hart) in paying tribute to Oliver and James, who saved life and the level of tourism on the Isle of Wight. Again, two young boys out at sea. I think she referred to there the plea was about fundraising. That was repeated by being heroism every day, and that is true. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), the hon. Member for Redcar (Jacob Young) on his first who spoke at the end of the Back-Bench speeches and Westminster Hall speech, and Bob on the 50 years of paid tribute to his six local stations. I did notice a wee his life that he has given to the RNLI. The hon. Member bit of groaning around the room when he started to go for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) spoke over the top and brag about having the best coastline about Stuart “Woody” Wood. It is great that the boat and how every MP will have visited his constituency. was named after him. For the record, I have not visited his constituency, but I The RNLI is an institution indelibly ingrained on the will bear it in mind as a recommendation. psyche of the British nation, and we give thanks to all As I said, this has been a debate in which everybody the souls who down the years have risked their lives to pretty much agrees on the importance of what these keep those of us in peril on the sea safe. Those brave organisations do. I repeat the calls from other hon. men and women are on standby 24 hours a day, every Members for the Government to try to help out with day of the year, launching in minutes, as the hon. funding, particularly for PPE issues. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan To finish, I want to mention a wee story that I have Edwards) said, with the equipment, skills and expertise picked up on. It is of a woman who has been described that have saved hundreds of thousands of lives over the as a “fundraising phenomenon” for the RNLI and has last 200 years. I pay tribute not just to the RNLI but to been recognised in the Queen’s birthday honours. Audrey the independent lifeboat stations as well, as many Members Wood, whom I do not know, from Newmachar in have done. Aberdeenshire, was recently given a British Empire The coronavirus pandemic has not prevented the Medal after raising more than £235,000 for lifeboat operation of the continuous maritime and coastal search stations across the north-east of Scotland following the and rescue service that the RNLI and many independent death of her son. Sadly, Stuart “Woody” Wood was one lifeboat stations provide to HM Coastguard and to of 16 men who died in the Flight 85N helicopter tragedy people in and around British waters. As has been pointed in 2009. Aberdeen RNLI’s D-class inshore lifeboat has out, it is of great credit to the voluntary crews that they been named “Buoy Woody – 85N” in his memory. have maintained that provision even in the midst of a Mrs Wood has described her fundraising efforts as national lockdown this spring. Since the inception of “a distraction therapy for us in this lifelong grieving journey of voluntary lifeboats in the 18th century and the subsequent losing our only son”. foundation of the RNLI in 1824, voluntary crews, and That brings things together in a circular way. This is those they have rescued, have relied on voluntary donations somebody who, in the face of adversity and tragedy, has to keep them going, as the hon. Member for Hastings decided to go out and do good work for the community and Rye said. and try to prevent that tragedy from happening to somebody else, so I pay tribute to her. I pay tribute to all Many of us—even the landlubbers such as myself, the fundraisers who work for the RNLI and independent the Minister and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and stations. And of course I pay a massive tribute to the Loudoun, who are far from the sea—are touched by the volunteers who staff these vital rescue craft. courageous actions of boat crews, although I can point out that, unlike the constituencies of the two Members 3.33 pm I mentioned, Manchester has a ship canal, built by MikeKane(WythenshaweandSaleEast)(Lab):Weshould Daniel Adamson in 1890, and therefore has access to form a website after this—CoastalCommunitiesRUs.com. the Atlantic. I point that out on every occasion. In a Being a Mancunian, I can say that we do not have a testament to the positive impact of lifeboat crews, one 99WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 100WH Covid-19 Covid-19 of my best friends was rescued by the RNLI on a cliff as lexicon is not surprising. It is thanks to those brave a youngster, and five decades later he is still raising individuals that the lists of those lost at sea are not far money for it, even though he is a constituent of mine. longer. Those individuals include people such as Adam The RNLI’s 248 lifeboat stations aided more than Robertson from Buckie RNLI, mentioned by my hon. 9,000 people last year, saving 220 lives. That is more Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), who than four lives saved every week. Lifeboat crews depend said that they sacrifice their time to help others. He is on well maintained rescue craft, equipment and facilities. absolutely right. My hon. Friend the Member for Regular training is also essential. Those costs add up. Eastbourne (Caroline Ansell) said that she would like to Personal equipment costs £2,500 per crew member. see these people recognised as the heroes that they are. I Lifeboats vary from £50,000 to up to £2.2 million. Even agree, and I do so now. an inshore rescue boat costs more than £10,000. According The challenge of saving lives at sea cannot be to the RNLI, it cost it more than £181 million to overestimated. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and operate last year, with 94% of its income coming from Loudoun (Alan Brown) rightly said that they go into donations. The RNLI tells us that this year it has conditions from which the rest of us wish to shelter. He received reduced income—an outlook reflected across is quite right. Their decision to do so often comes at much of the charity sector during the virus and the great personal cost. Hon. Members may be familiar national lockdown. with the story of the Penlee disaster, which I have Despite the lowered income,lifeboat crews have continued always found particularly moving. The lifeboat Solomon to provide an around-the-clock service throughout the Browne went to the aid of the vessel Union Star when it pandemic. Anecdotal evidence suggests that this summer suffered engine failure in heavy seas. Both vessels were may have been one of the busiest for British lifeboat lost with all hands—16 people, including the eight crews. That is probably linked to the greater number of volunteers of the lifeboat crew. “staycations” as was mentioned by the hon. Member Many people are also surprised to learn that there are for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) and others—particularly many independent lifeboats. There are 60 inshore teams as the country came out of lockdown. On top of that around our coasts, such as the Hamble lifeboat, which increased demand, the RNLI has spent an additional my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes) £1.3 million this year on the PPE required to follow mentioned, which has had its 50th anniversary, and the public health guidance and maintain safety for crews, as Sandown and Shanklin lifeboat, which my hon. Friend mentioned by the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Caroline the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) mentioned. Ansell). Steve, my parliamentary assistant, who is a These teams have proud histories, stretching back in former mountain rescue operative, asked me to mention some cases even further than the RNLI itself. As a the skill of the work, particularly at Beachy Head, result of the very powerful speech from my hon. Friend where it is necessary to rescue people from the cliffs. It is the Member for Totnes today, the star of independent time-consuming work, as the hon. Member for North lifeboats will shine all the brighter at the end of this Norfolk mentioned. debate. The RNLI has made it clear that it has not sought Together, independent lifeboats have been launched financial support for the additional costs of the pandemic. over 23,000 times—not since last year, but just since the Nor has it sought wider Government funding. I nevertheless start of the covid-19 pandemic: 23,000 situations where ask the Minister to do everything in his power to ensure lives have been at risk and were saved. Today there will that that truly vital service remains effective. I will end undoubtedly be more. One example of an independent with one simple request to the Minister. Will he review lifeboat charity is Hope Cove in my hon. Friend’s voluntary lifeboat funding and ensure that those courageous constituency. Hope Cove has had a lifeboat protecting crews can continue their lifesaving operations? the waters around Bigbury Bay since 1878, with brave local teams serving their community over many generations. Only this year, since covid-19 reached our shores, the 3.39 pm current crew from Hope Cove has responded to no less The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport than 23 incidents in its area, including responding to (Robert Courts): It is a pleasure to serve under your seven incidents over the late spring bank holiday where chairmanship today, Mr Hosie. I congratulate and thank multiple persons were assisted. The crew were continuing my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony that longstanding and proud tradition for the community Mangnall) on securing this debate. The hon. Member they protect. for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) is quite It is in large part due to the personal commitment right: it is very good to be back in Westminster Hall. and skill of these teams that the UK has one of the best Like him, I will not attempt to find a local coastal link records for water safety in the world. The founder of the to my constituency, given that it is landlocked—I would RNLI, Sir William Hillary, once said: be pushing my luck with the River Thames, although I “With courage, nothing is impossible.” note that the RNLI has a station on the River Thames These brave individuals continue to personify the British at this end of the river. This is an extremely important tradition of altruism and selflessness in the face of issue, which highlights the impact that covid-19 has had adversity. I know that all hon. Members will join me in on all our frontline services. offering our heartfelt gratitude for their service to the I would like to take a moment to pay tribute to the nation. That they have all found a way to continue brave people, often volunteers, who risk their lives to operating with the additional impact, strain and implications save others. The RNLI is an incredible organisation. of coivd-19 only further increases my admiration. Since its foundation in 1824, its lifeboats have saved The impact of the pandemic cannot be overestimated. over 143,000 lives—143,000—an astonishing number The Government have responded with an unprecedented that is worth repeating and celebrating. That the phrase £330 billion of financial measures to support businesses “worse things happen at sea” has entered our national of all kinds across all parts of our United Kingdom, 101WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 102WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Robert Courts] their operations and PPE needs, and to decide how best to support their services. In some cases, as my hon. including the coronavirus job retention scheme and the Friend so powerfully outlined, this has involved significant self-employed income support scheme. Our charities additionalcostsoutsideof normaloperationalrequirements. are playing a crucial role in the national fight against Through the UK Search and Rescue Medical Group, covid-19, backed by an army of volunteers, who continue we have provided advice and guidance, which is publicly to deliver these vital key services. As hon. Members available on gov.uk, to balance the provision of PPE have highlighted today, the search and rescue sector has against the risks to both rescuers and those being rescued. been particularly hard hit during the pandemic. Operational That guidance does not set any requirements on search costs have increased, while at the same time fundraising and rescue services. Operational decisions, such as opportunities have declined. In common with many requirements for specific PPE or deciding whether to other charities, search and rescue organisations have accept a launch request, always ultimately rest with the reduced income this year, and they will need to address individual charity. and assess their operational capabilities and outputs, as If a lifeboat charity is advised that it is unable to our country recovers from this global crisis. respond in these unprecedented times, HM Coastguard I recognise that easing lockdown measures and will entirely respect that decision and seek to request restrictions earlier this year also resulted in significant alternative assets.However,in recognition of the importance spikes in the number of operations, as the public flocked of the charity sector to the delivery of these frontline to the coast in places such as the constituency of my services, the Government announced £750 million of hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight, as he quite new funding in April this year. That announcement was rightly said. The increase in staycations has also increased accompanied by new guidance, which provided best pressure on our search and rescue charities, as people practice advice and assistance on how services could be have chosen to holiday in the UK in places such as—but provided safely. not exclusively—North Norfolk. They have also undertaken My Department has also recently provided significant more adventurous activities outside. My hon. Friend financial support to the search and rescue sector, as we the Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart) have heard from a number of hon. Members. The quite rightly pointed out the very moving story of rescue boat grant fund has provided nearly £6 million of Oliver Veness and James Blything, who saved lives this funding over the past six years to assist charities of all year. My hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Jacob kinds with the purchase of large capital items and Young) also made a significant point about the impact everything down to and including PPE. Grants have on people suffering from poor mental health. That is a bought nearly 100 new rescue boats and other craft, factor that we should consider as well, because these many more launch vehicles and trailers, and thousands charities assist those people too. of items of equipment, including PPE items. We have already initiated discussions with search and A number of Members, in particular my hon. Friend rescue charities to understand the impacts on their the Member for Isle of Wight and the hon. Member for operations, as part of the recovery from covid-19, and Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), we have provided assistance where we can. For instance, have asked that the importance of that fund be recognised, Her Majesty’s Coastguard, which has a close relationship and I can say today that the future of the fund is part of with the RNLI and independent lifeboats in any event, the wider review of Government spending that is currently has increased the support it provides through its search under way. The fund was complemented with a further and rescue aircraft, to reduce the burden on charities £4 million, which was made available to search and rescue such as air ambulances, and it has provided additional charities to provide funding for the training of their assistance to other emergency services. volunteers. Those combined funding measures available We continue to assess the impact of the pandemic on to charities during the Government’s unprecedented the provision of search and rescue services. As part of financial package of covid-19 response measures have this process, we have considered alternative options to left the sector in a much stronger position to weather provide a service to anyone who may need help. For the current storm. We will of course continue to work in example, HM Coastguard has instigated additional safety partnership with the RNLI and independent rescue patrols through its coastguard rescue service, which has boat charities to ensure that the impact of the pandemic its own volunteers, to ensure that assistance can be on our search and rescue services can be mitigated as provided more swiftly in high-risk areas. It has also far as possible. introduced additional patrol activity,by using its helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft to increase its visibility and I again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes reduce response times. for raising this important issue and for providing the Recent formal agreements with the RNLI and Surf opportunity for us to debate the additional challenges Life Saving Great Britain will also ensure even closer that covid-19 has introduced for lifeboats. As my hon. working relationships, and enable vital information about Friends the Members for Totnes and for Hastings and beach activities to be passed to HM Coastguard, to Rye, and the hon. Member for South Antrim (Paul further improve mission planning, asset availability Girvan) have all pointed out, when we are in trouble at and asset usage. My hon. Friend the Member for sea, those services will be there for us, and the House Totnes quite rightly made a point about information has made it clear today that it will be there for them. sharing. We are dealing, of course, with unprecedented circumstances, but I know that the lessons that need to 3.50 pm be learned will be learned. Anthony Mangnall: I do not need long to sum up, Let me turn to the additional costs of operating because every single word uttered by Members in this under pandemic conditions. I entirely recognise that all Chamber today shows the strength of feeling that we all search and rescue charities have been required to assess have for the RNLI and our independent lifeboats. 103WH RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: 13 OCTOBER 2020 104WH Covid-19 I thank the Minister for his response. It is extremely Equality Act 2010: Children from reassuring to hear about the coverage from Her Majesty’s Disadvantaged Backgrounds coastguard, and extremely gratifying to know that lessons will be learned and that information sharing can be developed with regards to the RNLI and how it functions [JUDITH CUMMINS in the Chair] alongside the emergency services. Many of us were aware of the £750 million available 4 pm for the charities. I hope that we might be able to find Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): I beg to move, something tailored more specifically for the lifeboats, on the basis of the complaints that came through. It is That this House has considered ensuring that the Equality Act 2010 protects children from disadvantaged backgrounds. fair to say that these are no ordinary charities; they are part of our emergency services, one way or another, and I raise this matter today because, in truth, I am not they have to have a special position as a result. convinced that it does. In fact, my view is that the misapplication and misinterpretation of the Equality With regard to the rescue boat grant fund, I am glad Act 2010 has led to the exclusion of some of our that it is under review.I have a willing group of volunteers country’s poorest people. Whether by flaw of design or in this Chamber to push on that and to make the case to subsequent false interpretation, the Act does not deliver the Minister and to the Chancellor—I certainly have what was intended. That is not something we should form on doing that. shy away from just because it is difficult or because it One of the most important parts of our RNLI and cuts against the popular narrative on diversity. It is independent lifeboats is the volunteers. By standing up important. If we listened to that narrative—the one that today to speak about the need to support those vital holds sway in the media and on Twitter—we would be lifeboat stations across the country, and their crews, I forgiven for believing that protected characteristics in hope that we have the opportunity to encourage more the Act are things such as black, Asian and minority volunteers in the years to come. ethnic, female, or lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. Given the words of all Members, this debate has been That is how usually it is put across, even by our institutions, a wonderful opportunity to say how much we appreciate by businesses and even by Government Ministers and what those volunteers do for us. I heard Members Departments on the odd occasion. In truth, that is not calling them heroes, and telling us about them braving correct. The characteristics listed, in fact, are race, sex, the elements and doing the things that none of us would sexuality, among others. In fact, a white heterosexual do—they were undeniably right. With work on this in male has just as much protection under the Act as a future, we can create a network for a steady flow of black, gay female. It is equal, hence the name. volunteers to come through to support such sectors. Sometimes it seems like nobody knows this. It is I should add that two Members were unable to attend actually quite mad. Rather than the Equality Act 2010 the debate: my hon. Friends the Members for Dover existing to prevent discrimination, an awful lot of people (Mrs Elphicke)—and Deal—and for East Devon (Simon in influential positions—even in our national institutions— Jupp). They send their apologies. They have been strong seem to be under the impression that the Act and its advocates in their respective communities, and I will provisions on positive action give them the right to work with them as part of the group. actively discriminate in favour of certain groups. As I said at the beginning, the idea of what we can do Discrimination on the basis of those characteristics is, for our independent lifeboats is to create an independent of course, illegal, whether it has “positive” as a prefix or lifeboat association, and that is something that we as not, but it seems commonplace. For example, there are Members of Parliament should lead on. We should not countless scholarships and bursaries for higher levels of take up the time of volunteers, but engage in creating study offered only to BAME students. That is not that structure so that they can come to us. We can help positive action, I am afraid; that is discrimination. in the formation of such an association. In the words of There is a difference. Encouraging under-represented Gilbert and Sullivan, “I’ve got a little list”, and it has all BAME students to apply for scholarships, yes; excluding of our names on it. I will contact Members individually all white students from a scholarship on the basis of about what we can do to ensure that we build this their race should be a no. That is the very definition of structure. discrimination, and it is even worse when, without the lens of identity politics, it is actually the disadvantaged Question put and agreed to. white children who struggle most to access higher education, Resolved, not BAME children. That positive discrimination favours That this House has considered the future of the RNLI and a group that already does better statistically, and at the independent lifeboats after the covid-19 outbreak. expense of the most under-represented. But as I have said, that is commonplace. The Act, or at least its 3.54 pm interpretation and implementation, is fundamentally Sitting suspended. flawed. According to research by the writer and commentator Douglas Murray, the Act has, in the main, tended to support and promote those who are already closest to their destination, rather than digging down into supporting those in genuine need, perhaps due to the lack of provision around socioeconomic circumstances. There is a socioeconomic duty in the Act, in section 1, which puts a duty on public bodies to exercise their duties in a way that is designed to reduce socioeconomic inequalities. 105WH Equality Act 2010: Children from 13 OCTOBER 2020 Equality Act 2010: Children from 106WH Disadvantaged Backgrounds Disadvantaged Backgrounds [Ben Bradley] The popular narrative of white privilege is regularly wheeled out, and it is assumed that those poorest white However, that section has never been enacted. I am not children do not face discrimination on that basis, but in a legal expert and I am sure there is a reason for that: fact they do. If we step outside the Twitter bubble, we perhaps some unintended consequences that would occur are faced with the stark reality that, through that kind if it were enacted, or perhaps a perception that it is of rhetoric, our society is ignoring what is statistically unnecessary—a public body should already be doing one of its most vulnerable demographics. As it happens, that. I know that is not directly in the Minister’s brief those lads are more likely than anyone to chuck themselves but, following the debate, can she ask the Equalities under a train, and that is not a coincidence. Minister to write to me on the issue? It could be argued, if one were so inclined, that the It seems clear that socioeconomic status or social Act, or at least the unfettered misapplication of it, has class is, in fact, the greatest indicator of life chances, but played a part in exacerbating this problem. I have long that is not a protected characteristic nor is it enacted in argued that identity politics is divisive and unhelpful, section 1. I am sure that there is a reason. and the Act enshrines it in our law. It does not recognise the individual needs of the most disadvantaged people, Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): My and it actively supports the advancement of others hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and a very through so-called positive action based not on their good case, not just on the specific points he has mentioned, actual individual needs or disadvantage, and not on any but on the wider principle of making sure that the actual discrimination or barriers they face as individuals, Equality Act actually works. I wish to add to his list the but on the basis of broad assumptions based on their issue of geographical disadvantage. Often, where a person physical characteristics. is born in this country—not just the family they are The identity politics—the lumping of people into boxes, born into but the geographical disadvantages—is a key rather than considering their individual circumstances—that factor that very often gets overlooked and does not get is enshrined in the Act is deeply troubling. We have seen addressed. it manifest itself in other ways that have become part of the popular narrative recently. But it is surely the case Ben Bradley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A that privilege or hardship are not based on which of person’s access to services, for example, can be limited these characteristic boxes a person ticks but are down or decided by where they are lucky enough to be born. to their wider individual circumstances—things such A key point I am making throughout this speech is that as socioeconomic background or geography, which my those differences in equality of opportunity exist outside hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay of the protected characteristics enshrined in the Act (Steve Double) mentioned. Socioeconomic status and and that there are other reasons people might not have social class are more indicative of a person’s life chances that same opportunity that we should be addressing. than their physical characteristics. Physical characteristics A lack of provision around socioeconomic equality play a part, of course. Discrimination, racism, misogyny in the Act and the perverse consequences of the and homophobia exist, but they are one part of a more misinterpretation of protected characteristics and positive complex picture—one segment of an individual’s life action means that it can often seem like every other experience and opportunity. We should help people group in society has support and is protected by the Act based on their actual needs, not on guesswork based on apart from the most disadvantaged white children, and flawed metrics. The interpretation and implementation white boys and men in particular. Recently, UCAS of the Act is deeply flawed. statistics showed that only 9% of white boys on free I am fed up to the back teeth with identity politics. I school meals go to university. The second lowest was do not want to be stood here saying, “White kids this,” white girls on free school meals at 14%. White boys and, “White kids that.” I value all kids and their futures, from disadvantaged backgrounds are most likely to and the support they get should be based on what they drop out of school with no qualifications and have the need, not on the colour of their skin, their gender or lowest rate of achieving GCSEs, followed by disadvantaged any other grand narrative that we concoct to make white girls. In contrast, black or Asian girls have the ourselves feel better. Separating black and white, gay highest chances of going to university. If those statistics and straight, male and female in that way is combative were reversed, I guarantee that there would be an uproar. and unhelpful, but it sometimes feels like I have to In BAME groups too, boys tend to do worse than girls. highlight white disadvantaged kids and their plight, Rates of grammar school entry is another area in because otherwise they do not seem to get a look in. which results differ based on ethnic background. If we talk generally about disadvantage, the system Disadvantaged white British children enter grammar and our legislation—this misinterpretation of the Equality school at the lowest rate of any major ethnic group. Act—always seem to bring the discussion back around Disadvantaged Indian pupils are four times more likely to the BAME, female and other misinterpretations that to attend, and Chinese pupils are 15 times more likely. we have enshrined in law. If we do not say “white kids”, Again, across all races and ethnicities, boys are lower in the popular narrative and the system seem to leave them the rankings than girls. behind—and have done so in many cases—in favour of In education at least, the constant false interpretation a fundamentally flawed diversity agenda, which is hugely of the Act, which promotes positive action for BAME frustrating and, in many ways, wrong. and female pupils,seems entirely backwards.Disadvantaged In closing, I want to ask the Minister some questions. white boys are statistically faring the worst. They are I do not know the answers, and I do not expect her to under-represented at universities and in our public know the answers, but I hope they will be taken away institutions, and their life chances are most limited for consideration. As an Education Minister, she will no because they are most likely to have no qualifications. doubt have some remarks about the points I have made 107WH Equality Act 2010: Children from 13 OCTOBER 2020 Equality Act 2010: Children from 108WH Disadvantaged Backgrounds Disadvantaged Backgrounds about education, which I would welcome. The Secretary low incomes or struggling to find employment. A key of State has been clear about his wish to support more part of the school’s success has been educating parents disadvantaged white working-class boys into university, to have high expectations for their children. for example, if that is their aspiration, and that is very Sadly, not all school experiences are as good as that welcome. of Evelyn Street. In towns across the north and the I have some questions about the Equality Act itself, midlands, white working-class boys are falling behind, and I wonder whether the Minister can take them away and they have been for some time. More than a dozen and perhaps raise them with colleagues in the Government times in recent years, they have been ranked the lowest Equalities Office. First, why has the socioeconomic or second-lowest performing ethnic group in the country. provision within the Act not been enacted? If it is As the chair of the all-party group for school exclusion flawed or inappropriate in its detail, how can we fix it? and alternative provision, I am greatly concerned by What protections can the Act offer to those who face that, as is the rest of the group. By the age of five, white barriers and discrimination based on being poor, being working-class boys are 13% behind disadvantaged black in care or other hardships that are not recognised in this boys and 23% behind disadvantaged Asian girls in law? Secondly,if the answer is “none”, will the Government phonics, and they are 40% less likely to go into higher look closely at the implications of that section of the education than their black counterparts. Act and seek to amend it in a way that offers such The events of recent months have shone some light support? on why we need a review of the system to give everyone Thirdly, will the Government review the implications equal opportunities to succeed while providing children, of amending the Act to remove or change any damaging parents and teachers with the tools to do so, and positive action elements that go way beyond preventing supporting children like those at Evelyn Street Primary discrimination and, due to the constant misinterpretation School. I am particularly pleased to see the £1 billion of those who claim ownership of it, appear in practice catch-up fund to help children to recover some of the to condone positive discrimination to the exclusion of learning that they lost when schools were closed. Although some of our country’s poorest people? that funding is hugely welcome, it is critical that it is Finally, at the very least, the Government should focused on disadvantaged cohorts such as white working- consider clearly restating the actual aims and nature of class boys. the provisions of the Act, laying out the reality,challenging This short debate is about the Equality Act 2010. It is the false rhetoric around it and requiring their own interesting that the Act introduced many protected officers and institutions to implement it in a fair and characteristics, including age, disability and sex, as my balanced way. There are fundamental flaws in the way hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield mentioned, the Act is implemented, whether owing to poor design whereas one key determinant of success in school is or poor interpretation. Left unchallenged, that has made socioeconomic background, which is not a protected things worse for some of the most vulnerable children characteristic. There are many arguments for and against in our society. This narrative has led, for example, to making socioeconomic circumstances—including where fee-paying schools rejecting charitable support for someone was born—a protected characteristic. Given disadvantaged children based on their race, and we have that white working-class boys are clearly identifiable as heard in recent weeks that it has led to racial segregation being more at risk of exclusion and failure in the system in UK businesses, such as Sainsbury’s. It is unhealthy than almost any other group, perhaps it is time to and a backward step. Something needs to change. review that. I urge the Minister to look carefully at the data on exclusions outside London. I also ask her to commit to looking into whether making socioeconomic 4.10 pm background a protected characteristic could be a way to Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): It is a pleasure protect the forgotten group that is white working-class to speak in this short but important debate. I pay boys, or whether the Act could be amended in some tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield other way. Part 1 of the Act, as my hon. Friend the (Ben Bradley), who has done a tremendous amount of Member for Mansfield mentioned, puts a duty on public work to raise important issues about children from authorities to have regard to socioeconomic inequalities disadvantaged backgrounds. It is particularly white when exercising their functions, but that section of the working-class boys in the north of England and the Act is not in force. midlands who are falling behind, as we see from the statistics. To conclude, hon. Members will find nobody who We could do so much more to solve the problem. is more supportive than I am of the Government’s Fortunately, standards in Warrington South schools commitment to levelling up across our country and have risen dramatically over the past 10 years. Evelyn investing in communities that need it most. The fastest Street Primary School in Sankey Bridges, which is in way to help people out of poverty is to help them to get one of the town’s pockets of high deprivation, has gone a job, and the best way to make sure that young people from failing to proudly being one of the top schools in have a fighting chance when they enter the workforce is England. I have seen at first hand how the academy to make the most of their talents and ensure that they trust’s chief executive officer, Mrs Smith, approached get a great start in life with a first-class education. the school’s transformation, changing the culture and pushing for improvements at every turn. We have seen 4.15 pm the same thing in all the academies in her trust. It is fair to say, looking back at the data, that many of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education children who were most at risk of being failed in that (Vicky Ford): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member school when she first arrived in 2004 were white working- for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) on securing this really class boys with hard-working parents, many of them on important debate. As he knows, ensuring equality of 109WH Equality Act 2010: Children from 13 OCTOBER 2020 Equality Act 2010: Children from 110WH Disadvantaged Backgrounds Disadvantaged Backgrounds [Vicky Ford] danger that it could create a tick-box mentality, which might be seen as an acceptable substitute for meaningful opportunity is a topic that is close to my heart. I feel action. Wewant to avoid such distractions and concentrate privileged to be part of a Government that holds this on real help. I assure him that the action he has taken important issue as a real priority. today has ensured that the Government will keep both The Equality Act provides protection to all children, the legislation and the guidance under review. as well as to adults. We must get away from the perception We are also improving our approach to equalities. We that protected characteristics in the Act are there only are reshaping the Government Equalities Office, bringing to protect certain groups and exclude others. For example, it closer together with the race disparity unit and the a white boy at school is covered by the Act in the same disability unit to create an equality hub. We need to way, and to the same extent, as his BAME classmates or move away from the idea that we are simply dealing schoolgirls of any race. If a white boy from a disadvantaged with groups that already enjoy Equality Act protection, background feels he has been treated less fairly in and instead ensure that we are looking at individuals educational work compared with his female or BAME across the country and identifying those who are most peers, he has a means of redress available to him, in need, what their biggest barriers to success are and initially through informal routes, but ultimately at a where there is unequal delivery of public services. We tribunal if it is felt to be necessary. want to examine issues such as geography, as my hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield asked Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve about the elements of the Act that relate to positive Double) mentioned, where communities in certain areas action. The Act enables positive action to help to ensure risk being held back. We also should be focusing on that all groups of society are fairly represented, but that analysing the data, looking closely at individual dignity is not the same as positive discrimination, where one and opportunity and also at areas such as income and group might be unfairly favoured over another. Positive background, so that we have a more holistic view. action is designed to enable the promotion of a level Weunderstand, however,that pupils from disadvantaged playing field. An example of positive action is when an backgrounds, including boys, may face greater challenges employer wants to address the fact that it does not have at every stage of education. Weare committed to addressing any disabled apprentices; the employer can favour the those challenges, levelling up education standards and recruitment of a disabled applicant over a non-disabled improving outcomes. one, provided that their applications are broadly of equal merit. That is positive action. Andy Carter: Will the Minister tell us a little bit about Positive discrimination is unlawful under the Equality how the Government are particularly addressing the Act, however. If people have evidence of positive issue of boys from disadvantaged backgrounds, to get discrimination, they should take such cases to the courts that levelling-up agenda delivered? or tribunals and call out breaches, to help to ensure that the positive action provisions are used only as intended. Vicky Ford: Absolutely. One of my passions is the The provisions were supported across Parliament when early years of development, and too many children, the legislation was brought in in 2010. We support them especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, are as a means of levelling up the playing field for disadvantaged falling behind in those early years. It is then so hard to groups, but it is really important that the public and private close the gaps once they have emerged, and evidence sectors understand the lawful use of positive action. shows us that what happens in a child’s pre-school The code of practice and guidance exist for that purpose. years—those very early years—are the most important My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield also and have a huge influence on later outcomes. That is asked, most perceptively, about the socioeconomic why the Government have been making record investments provisions in the Act. Social status is not one of the in early education, including 15 hours of free education characteristics protected by the Act, and we need to be for all disadvantaged two-year-olds as well as three and careful not to use it as a vehicle for social engineering four-year-olds. It is also why we have doubled the rather than as a shield against discrimination. A duty of amount of free childcare available to three and four-year- that kind would more likely result in public bodies olds for working parents. trying to retrofit a levelling-down agenda, rather than These investments have led to a real improvement. offering better opportunities for all disadvantaged groups The latest early years foundation profile shows that the and levelling up. proportion of all children reaching a good stage of development by the time they start school—year 1—has Ben Bradley: I do not mean to try to catch the gone up from 51%, or one in two children, in 2013 to Minister out here, but can she explain to me the difference nearly 72%, or two in three children, in 2019. Furthermore, between social engineering and positive action? over the same period, the gap between the children who are eligible for free school meals and their peers at age Vicky Ford: Positive action is designed to enable five has narrowed from 19 percentage points to just opportunities to be given, as opposed to positive under 18 percentage points. Indeed, the same is true in discrimination, which is unlawful. That is why it is so school: because of the education reforms that were important that the guidance is clear on the subject. We mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington need to promote the level playing field and enable South (Andy Carter), 86% of schools are now judged to levelling up, and not encourage behaviour that could be good or outstanding, compared with only 68% of constitute levelling down. schools in 2010. As a result, the disadvantage attainment Weneed to avoid taking a tick-box approach. Amending gap has narrowed by 13% at age 11 and by 9% at age 16, part 1 of the Equality Act would not necessarily lead and it has narrowed at every stage from early years to to what my hon. Friend seeks, because there is a real age 16 since 2011. However, we know there are still 111WH Equality Act 2010: Children from 13 OCTOBER 2020 Equality Act 2010: Children from 112WH Disadvantaged Backgrounds Disadvantaged Backgrounds issues in other areas, so we have committed an extra There are children on free school meals, and then there £18 million to the £72 million opportunity areas programme is another group of children who have this huge to transform the life chances of young people in 12 of disadvantage. Will the Government consider that group, the most disadvantaged areas of the country—those who will not be able to engage with laptops and tutors? with particularly low social mobility. Is there something else we can do to help them? My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South also mentioned the very important issue of exclusions. Vicky Ford: My hon. Friend raises an excellent point. It used to be the case that looked-after children—children This is why the national tutoring programme will bring in care—had the very highest rates of permanent exclusion, extra resources into schools to help young people. That and we are making sure that those children in care, who will be on top of the £650 million catch-up fund that often have the worst life outcomes, are supported to has gone to all schools. It will provide extra tutoring succeed in education. For example, we have put in place and support—one on one, or in small groups—for virtual school heads, designated teachers for looked-after those individuals, for whom it is so important. This is a children, and extra funding through the pupil premium deeply challenging time, and we absolutely understand plus for this group. The virtual school heads, in particular, that we need to make sure that the attainment gap does have made a significant impact since they were introduced not unnecessarily widen any more. We have spent a in 2014. Data shows progress across maths, reading and decade trying to close it, and we need to make sure that writing for looked-after children, and today, looked-after it does not spring apart again, particularly for the children are less likely to be permanently excluded cohorts of children that my hon. Friend mentions. from school than all other children. Interventions of I am enormously grateful for my hon. Friend’s support this nature are making a real impact on some really for this agenda. He has raised important concerns. I disadvantaged groups. particularly note his questions, which we will take up However, we know that the disadvantage gap is at with the Equalities Office. I hope I have helped to risk of widening because of the pandemic. Lack of explain the difference between positive action, which is digital access is of particular concern, and that is why allowed, and positive discrimination, which is not. I we have committed over £160 million to support remote point him again to the need for continual work on the education access and provided nearly half a million guidance on this subject, and I will make sure that I laptops and tablets to those most in need. We have also continue to raise these points with the Minister for announced the £1 billion covid catch-up fund, of which Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron £350 million is going into the national tutoring programme. Walden (Kemi Badenoch). I hope my hon. Friend the That will particularly focus support from high-quality Member for Mansfield is happy that the Government’s tutors on disadvantaged and vulnerable children who response today echoes his concerns. We have taken steps are most at risk of falling further behind. The first to underline the importance of supporting the most group of tutors starts on 1 November, and I strongly disadvantaged and vulnerable, and to make sure that all urge all my hon. Friends to ensure that schools in their children from all backgrounds, including the most constituencies are aware of that element of the catch-up disadvantaged, have the best opportunities in life. programme and ensure that the vulnerable students in Question put and agreed to. their area receive support. Judith Cummins (in the Chair): In order to allow the Ben Bradley: I do not expect an answer to this, but I safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of want to highlight a challenge. The poorest school in my business and the safe arrival of those who are coming in constituency in the poorest catchment is very keen to for the next debate, I am suspending the House for two access support for IT, tutoring and everything else, but minutes. 25% of parents within the school are illiterate and they do not want to take laptops home because they fear that the laptops will be stolen, or that they will targeted by 4.28 pm gangs involved in drugs on the estate where they live. Sitting suspended. 113WH 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 114WH Racism during Covid-19 Chinese and East Asian Communities: reported that this July saw the highest ever numbers of Racism during Covid-19 recorded hate crime against protected groups—40% higher than even after 7/7. In March, Jonathan Mok, a 23-year-old student from 4.30 pm Singapore, was punched and kicked in the face on Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): I beg to move, Oxford Street by a group of men. He heard shouts of “Coronavirus!”and was told, “I don’twant your coronavirus That this House has considered Chinese and East Asian in my country!” British-Chinese filmmaker Lucy Sheen communities’ experience of racism during the covid-19 pandemic. was on her way to rehearsals on a bus, when a white I thank Members for joining this debate, which is the male passenger whispered in her ear—forgive me for the first parliamentary debate to look specifically at racism unparliamentary language: “Why don’t you f-off back against the Chinese, East Asians and South-East Asians. to China and take your filth with you?” In Hitchin, just I will use those terms throughout my speech, because it down the road from my constituency, a takeaway owner is vital to get the language right. Chinese, East Asians was spat at and repeatedly asked if he had coronavirus. and South-East Asians have been subjected to horrific In Luton, people have been shouted at from cars. One hate crimes, especially recently due to the pandemic. I woman wrote to me to say that she no longer feels safe, wish we did not have to have this debate, but it is and walks about with her mask on and a hood up to particularly fitting that this is National Hate Crime cover her face. Awareness Week. Given the sharp rise in hate crime That is all without looking at the cesspit of social against British East and South-East Asians and the media. During the pandemic, blatant racism and conspiracy trebling of racist attacks since the covid pandemic, it is theories have been allowed to spread, unchecked and absolutely necessary. unaccountable. I report racist videos I am sent of people I am proud of my roots and my mixed heritage, both eating live animals or claiming that I am some part of a Asian and British. It allows me the best of both worlds global conspiracy, but it is exhausting and the onus is but, unfortunately, it also allows me to experience some on the wrong person. I hope that the Government will of the worst. Racism against Chinese and South-East address that in the forthcoming online harms Bill. Social Asians is absolutely nothing new. An undercurrent of media companies such as Twitter and Facebook should anti-Asian racism plagued this country before the pandemic be held responsible for what is published on their sites. started, but now the lid has been lifted and the far right Coronavirus has been given the face of a Chinese has wrongly been given legitimacy to air its derision, Asian person. This sort of racism punches up as well as violence and hatred. it punches down. Asians are equally dehumanised, to From an early age, it was made clear to me that I was the extent that we are all the same and all eat live seen as different. Sitting backstage at the age of about animals, as well as somehow being part of a global seven or eight, waiting to perform in a play set in a conspiracy. The mainstream media have added fuel to Chinese courtroom, the person doing our make-up the fire. The petition started by the fantastic Viv Yau, pointed at me and said, “Make the other kids look like Mai-anh Peterson, Amy Phung, Charley Wong and her.” The other children had their hair covered in black Karlie Wu called for media outlets to stop using East tights, their eyes coated in exaggerated black eyeliner and South-East Asian-related imagery when discussing and I remember sitting there thinking, “Do I really look covid-19. Their work has revealed that some 33% of like that?” Thirty years later, sadly, we still see examples images used to report covid-19 in the British media have of yellow face all over western culture, whether it is used the image of someone who looks like me, completely Ting Tong in “Little Britain”, productions of “Madame unnecessarily and unrelated to the story. The problem Butterfly”, Scarlett Johansson or countless examples has been compounded by our under-representation in on Amazon, which has yet to take down its offensive the UK media, so the negative coverage has no balance adverts. by positive representation. Only in my teens, though, did I feel that my racial I am grateful to the Minister for Digital and Culture, identity meant that my safety was threatened, when a the hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), for student brought a knife into school to stab me with her recent meeting with us to find a way forward on the because she did not like it when races mixed. I therefore Government’s own advertising around covid-19. But understand the fear and frustration that many British political leadership, standing up for and standing alongside East and South-East Asians are feeling right now, as British East Asians and South-East Asians has been racists add another powerful tool to their arsenal: virtually non-existent, and at its worst it has incited coronavirus. A month ago, police chiefs warned that the further hatred. far right is using covid-19 as an excuse to attack what Donald Trump this week called covid-19 the “China the Metropolitan police describe as “oriental people”. plague”. We have seen Tory Ministers sharing covid-19 We do not have enough time in this debate to unpack jokes with caricatures of a person in a Chinese pointy what is wrong with that term, but it is 2020, not 1920. hat, bucked teeth and slanting eyes, yet this was not The figures obtained by the organisation End the addressed by the party. A Tory council leader said in a Virus of Racism showed that there were 261 hate crimes meeting that this was all because someone was eating against Asians in April, 323 in May and 395 in June, undercooked bat soup in China. Again, that was not rising each time as lockdown eased. Those do not addressed by the party. include the number of hate crimes that have gone A couple of weeks ago, two MPs sat in the same under-reported, so I expect the real figures to be room as me and referred to the Chinese—I will quote much higher, and they are rising across the board: this unparliamentary language—as “those evil bastards”, covid-related racism has increased for the Jewish and and “oh, you know how they look.” They were rightly Muslim communities as well. Protection Approaches discussing the awful human rights abuses being carried 115WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 116WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 out by the Chinese state, but this is an othering of an China—about Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Tibet—but entire ethnicity, which should have no place in society, equally we need to talk today about the fact that many let alone this House. We need to lead by example. We East Asians are under so much pressure. should absolutely criticise the Chinese state for its appalling I was delighted to go and see the chairman of our abuses against the Uyghur people and actions in Hong local mental health trust, Mr Mark Lam, an experienced Kong, but we need to find a way that does not fuel computer technician at the height of his career who is racism or make Chinese-British East Asians even more giving his time and energy to lead the mental health vulnerable or fair game to racists. I believe that we can trust at a challenging time. As a result of covid, there is and must do better. a 20% increase in demand. At the end of the meeting I First, we need a clear statement from the Minister said that I was going to participate in today’s debate. He that she condemns anti-Asian and anti-Chinese racism. said that he has experienced anti-Chinese feeling a It is a basic ask but it is a start, and something that we number of times.Many Chinese people in our communities, have yet to hear officially. Secondly, our community when they are asked, say that they have experienced a must be supported to tackle this unprecedented rise in terrible sense of discrimination. hate crime. We need targeted support for anti-racism I am afraid it is not just words. There have been organisations working with the British East and South-East physical attacks, spitting, trying to run people over and Asian communities. Thirdly, the Government need to a number of very violent and despicable acts. Today is work with media outlets to stop the lazy overuse of East our opportunity in Parliament to say that we do not Asian imagery in their reporting of covid-19, especially stand for it, that we want equality and that we want the when it bears no relation to the story, and to hold social bigotry to stop. media companies to account when it comes to ridding their sites of racism and conspiracy theories. Fourthly, My second point is about the lack of role models. I include our community in the conversation—give us a would love to see more Chinese people in our media, seat at the table. Whether it is about financial support, being our anchors and newsreaders, and in our soaps. health or messaging on covid-19, the black, Asian and Our soaps do an amazing job; I am thinking about minority ethnic community has been left out of the “Hollyoaks,” as we have some Liverpudlians with us conversation altogether. today. They tackle difficult social issues and I wonder whether this might be something for one of our dramas Lastly, I ask the Minister not just to tell us that she is to take up, to try to challenge views and teach our grateful for our contributions, our culture, our skills, community in a real way, showing the hurt and how the our healthcare workers and our businesses. Please act issue is holding back community cohesion. on it. Act on it and let us end the virus of racism for good. My final point is about the local picture. One of the terrible results of the global financial crash was the cuts to local government. Local government used to provide 4.39 pm a small amount of funding for a number of different Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): services—a meals on wheels service or a day centre, for May I say what a delight it is to serve for the first time example. It was a way of mixing everyone up—“Come under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins, and how and have a meal together. Come and have a game of great it is to have a rugby league champion in the Chair? mah-jong or chess. Let’s talk to each other and get to know each other.” That was a powerful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen), who found the Since the cutbacks to local government, I have noticed time and the passion to secure the debate. It is fitting how lonely people are and how they are not experiencing that the debate is taking place this week, not just the fun things about their neighbours. They are not because it is looking at hate crime but in the context of trying each other’s food or going shopping as much. It the Black Lives Matter movement. is heartbreaking to see older people in particular sitting In the last couple of years we can all admit that on their own outside a supermarket or in a café, when bigotry has been emboldened, whether against the Jewish they could be with other people and getting to know community, Muslim communities or the East Asian one another. community here in the UK, who are the subject of I hope that some of the money coming out of the today’s debate. This is not just about the UK; we have Treasury now can go towards local government and heard first hand from my hon. Friend about her experiences, community cohesion and, in particular, that we will but we know that the issue goes across many different look at ways within the political parties to promote role cultures. She mentioned Mr Trump, and I want to touch models. We obviously have a role model here, in my on the background to the current trade war between hon. Friend the Member for Luton North—and the China and the US. There are legitimate issues to be hon. Member for Havant (Alan Mak) is a Minister in debated about trade and commerce, but that must never the Government, I believe. I am sure that there are be confused with racism against Chinese people. others whom I have not remembered today. We have a Some of the debate turns into the “Chinese Communist few councillors, but we should be looking much more party.” We know that some Chinese people based in the carefully at how we in politics can promote role models. People’s Republic of China do not have a choice about It is the way we learned about Black Lives Matter: by whether they are party members or not. It is not good listening to others. It is the way we have learned about enough to say the “Chinese Communist party”—we racism against other Asian communities: by having role should just say “the Government”, in the same way that models in politics or other fields. we might criticise another Government for other things. I hope that we can look not just at the geopolitics of My hon. Friend mentioned some of the issues we are covid and the role that important leaders such as the currently worried about in the People’s Republic of President of the US play. I hope that we can also look at 117WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 118WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 [Catherine West] who had travelled to England as part of the war effort. Liverpool families were never told what happened to the local picture, the fragmentation of our society, and those Chinese sailors. Their wives and children believed the lack of services to bring people together. Finally, I they had been deserted until the release of the declassified hope that we can look at role models within politics so records 50 years later revealed the shocking truth. Surviving that we can promote diversity and in particular make a descendants, now in their 70s, felt cheated out of a study of why we do not have more Chinese role models relationship with their fathers and unable to connect within our politics. I will conclude there because I am with their Chinese roots; they felt abandoned, only keen to hear other contributions. I thank everyone for finding out too late the horrendous events that led to taking part in the debate and I just wish a few more had their separation. It is important to raise awareness of joined us today from the Conservatives. Maybe next the issue and educate the wider community about the time. shocking events of 1946. It is part of British history. I also call on the Government to make an unreserved 4.46 pm apology for their part in destroying so many Liverpool Chinese family lives and to look at the racism that has Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): I welcome increased as a result of the pandemic. the opportunity to speak in this important debate on hate crime faced by Chinese and East Asian communities since the start of the pandemic—hatred stoked, as we 4.50 pm have just heard, by people who should know better: Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): It is a pleasure Tory politicians and Donald Trump. to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins, on I am honoured to represent Liverpool, Riverside, what I believe to be your first occasion in the Chair. I which includes Chinatown, one of the oldest established want to congratulate my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Chinese communities across Europe. The trade links Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen), for securing between China and Britain via the ports of Shanghai this important debate on Chinese and East Asian and Liverpool were instrumental in the establishment communities’ experience of racism during the covid-19 of a Chinese community in the city. The first ship pandemic, particularly this week, during National Hate arrived in Liverpool direct from China in 1834 and the Crime Awareness Week. It is important to take the first wave of Chinese immigrants arrived in 1866, with opportunity to raise the importance of reporting incidents the establishment of the Blue Funnel shipping line, of hate crime when they happen, as that will help which ran a line of steamers directly from Liverpool to prevent them happening to others and help the police China. and other agencies better understand the extent of hate Chinese sailors decided to stay in Liverpool and crime in a local area and, therefore, better respond to it. worked from a settled area in the city that was close to I hasten to add that all public services must also be the docks. Boarding houses were first opened by the properly resourced to do so. shipping company to accommodate its workers. It was A 2019 House of Commons Library briefing shows there that the first Chinese settlers started their own that police-recorded hate crime offences have continually businesses supplying services to their community. The risen since 2012-13. The rate of hate crimes against British merchant navy recruited sailors from its allies Chinese people between January and March this year across the world, and Liverpool became a reserve pool was nearly three times that of the previous two years, for Chinese merchant sailors, with up to 20,000 registered. according to data released by UK police forces to Sky In 1906 Liverpool City Council commissioned a News. The far right is constantly seeking to normalise report on Chinese settlement. There were 49 laundries, racist attitudes and behaviours, and we have seen legitimate 13 boarding houses and seven shops owned by members criticisms of the actions of the Chinese Government of the Chinese community. However, the Chinese being hijacked by those people who want to sow division community remains invisible in Liverpool, like so many in society. Moonshot, which specialises in monitoring others among our long-established diverse communities— extremist content online, found that between February lacking political representation, and neither being seen and April there was a 300% increase in racist and in shops in the city centre nor gaining access to key violent hashtags against China and Chinese people. services such as adult health and social care. They analysed more than 600 million tweets, of which The far right has used the coronavirus as an excuse to 200,000 contained hate speech or anti-Chinese conspiracy attack Chinese and East Asian communities, with hate theories. I urge the Government to address the horrendous crime increasing by a third since the lockdown was abuse online in the upcoming online harms Bill. Facebook eased in May and figures significantly higher than in and Twitter must be accountable for what is published previous years. In Liverpool, community associations on their websites. have expressed concern about the increased levels of bullying and intimidation and have started a low-level Catherine West: Does my hon. Friend agree that helpline, because unfortunately members of the community international students who are in the UK, who travel to are very unlikely to report those incidents. many of our constituencies, are often subject to very The Chinese community in Liverpool has been bad racist abuse and that something needs to be done subject to racism dating back to the 1940s. In 1946, about that as well? after the war, when so many Chinese seamen put their lives on the line to keep this country going and Rachel Hopkins: I welcome my hon. Friend’sintervention. maintain the war effort, more than 1,300 Chinese sailors With the University of Bedfordshire in my constituency were forcibly repatriated to China. Over 48 hours the of Luton South, we welcome many international students Liverpool constabulary implemented orders from the from China and other East Asian countries. They are British Government to deport Chinese sailors in Liverpool welcome in our town and we do not want the rise in hate 119WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 120WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 crime towards East Asian and Chinese people to deter The covid-19 crisis has had untold consequences on them from coming to the UK to study. It is a great all our lives, from the vast redundancies across the UK opportunity, so I thank my hon. Friend for raising that to the many families facing poverty and, of course, to important point. the huge loss of life. However, another consequence has We are also increasingly, and sadly, seeing hard-right been the rampant and utterly unacceptable racism against politicians and movements across the world using racist Chinese and East Asian communities. In the first few language. That has been mentioned already. It is a months of the covid-19 crisis, racist offences against disgrace to hear Donald Trump call coronavirus the Chinese and East Asian people rose rapidly, including Chinese virus or the Chinese plague. However, racism assaults, robberies, harassment and criminal damage. towards East Asian, South-East Asian and Chinese The hon. Member for Luton South rightly brought people is not restricted to politicians abroad. It is a some of those numbers to the attention of the House, disgrace that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- and it was right that, in response to the intervention Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan), the International from the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green, Development Secretary, shared a racist meme. Racism she focused on international students. My own city of is never a joke, and sharing that meme shows the Glasgow is blessed with three universities, and in the judgment of the individuals running our country. past few weeks a number of people have arrived in our city. I have some anecdotal concerns from what I see on The Chinese state must be held accountable for its social media and the comments that people have overheard failings and human rights abuses, but the far right is in the city centre. As we go into a new academic year, being encouraged by media reporting that has provided that could be a real problem. There is an onus on us all, ammunition to far-right activists seeking to normalise as community leaders, to call that out for what it is: racism. In Germany, Der Spiegel magazine ran a cover utterly unacceptable. image of a person in a protective red suit and gas mask, under the headline “Made in China”. In the UK, The Members of the Chinese and the East Asian community Economist also ran a front page with an image of the have described the attacks against them, with restaurants earth wrapped in a face mask adorned with a Chinese and take-outs being vandalised and boycotted and victims flag. The Government must tackle hate crime by making being punched, spat at and coughed on in the street and social media and media outlets accountable for how even verbally abused and blamed for the coronavirus they spread hate or fuel division. We need accurate pandemic. With even the President of the United States health messaging that does not discriminate against a dubbing covid-19 the Chinese virus, and his Secretary community. of State, Mike Pompeo, calling it the Wuhan virus, I make it clear that no one race or ethnic group is Finally, building on the point raised by my hon. responsible for the outbreak of coronavirus, and that Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green absolutely everybody has a right to be protected from (Catherine West) about role models for young people, targeted abuse. Indeed, President Trump’s foolish remarks my final comments are on the importance of anti-racist are a total insult to the families of the 4,634 people education. I am a supporter of the UK’sleading anti-racist in China who to date have lost their life as a result of education charity Show Racism the Red Card and a coronavirus. member of the all-party parliamentary group for showing The UN Committee on the Elimination of racism the red card. This Friday is Wear Red Day and I Racial Discrimination recommended that Governments encourage everybody to show their commitment to adopt national action plans against racial discrimination, anti-racism education and to tackling all forms of racism laying out specific approaches to combat racism and by wearing red on Friday. discrimination, from enhanced policing of hate crimes to public messaging and education programming 4.54 pm encouraging tolerance. Like others, I encourage the Government to take action and adopt new action plans David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): It is a pleasure to address the wave of racism and xenophobia that has to see you in the Chair, Mrs Cummins. I think this is the occurred as a result of the covid-19 crisis. I also echo first time that I have served under your chairmanship, the calls made by End the Virus of Racism urging the and it is good to be here. Government to condemn the growing hate crime and to I start by warmly congratulating the hon. Member give extra protections to targeted communities. for Luton North (Sarah Owen) on securing this debate. As was touched on by the hon. Member for Liverpool, She spoke powerfully in what has been an excellent, if Riverside, the UK must acknowledge its painful history short, discussion. I echo the comment that it would of racism, from the slave trade that originated at our have been nice if more of us were here. I do not say that ports, to Enoch Powell’s “rivers of blood” speech, to the to be party political. I have been in this place since 2017, hostile environment created by the current UK Government. and I actually think that Westminster Hall is probably That racism still exists in the UK. It is nuanced, it is one of the better places for discussing policy. It is a bit striking, but it is still, none the less, completely intolerable. of a shame that numbers are limited, but none the less, Racism will not disappear overnight. We must all what we have not had in quantity we have certainly had work actively to stamp it out from our society. The vile in quality. xenophobia against the Chinese and East Asian people I also place on the record my thanks to the hon. is completely unacceptable, and I hope that all parties in Members for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine the House will come together in unity to condemn West), for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) and for racism in all its forms and to work towards tackling the Luton South (Rachel Hopkins), who all made passionate issue head-on. One simple way of doing that, as the speeches from the Back Benches. Their constituents can hon. Member for Luton North said, is to wear red on be incredibly proud that they came here today to stand Friday, to at least make the point that we stand united up for social justice and against racism. on the most fundamental issue of humanity. 121WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 122WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 4.59 pm algorithms make decisions for users about what they can see online, and essentially that amplifies the content, Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): It so that is an issue that also needs to be addressed. is a genuine pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Cummins. I congratulate my hon. We need wider regulation of social media platforms Friend the Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) on to tackle hate speech and its wider distribution. Although securing this very important debate and on her passionate, I appreciate that the online harms Bill will come before thought-provoking and groundbreaking speech, and I Parliament next year, action is needed now. I highly thank her for sharing her shocking childhood experiences recommend the Institute for Strategic Dialogue’simpressive of racism. That was a telling and very poignant part of report, “The First 100 Days: Coronavirus and Crisis the debate. Management on Social Media Platforms”. That goes into detail as to how hate crime and hate speech are As hon. Members have so eloquently highlighted, spread on social media platforms. one of the social consequences of the coronavirus pandemic has been the alarming rise in online hate speech against I mentioned earlier in my speech that online hate the Chinese and East Asian community. The pandemic speech has evolved into physical hate crime, and we has provided fertile ground for extremists. Conspiracy heard a number of examples from hon. Members in theorists have fuelled hatred and are exploiting people’s today’s debate. Figures from police forces across England fears. Left unchecked, fake news about minority and Wales have revealed that at least 267 offences communities has circulated online, sowing the seeds of against, I quote, “Chinese people”were recorded between hatred. That causes division and damages community January and March during the covid-19 crisis. That relations in our society and it has been allowed to grow included assaults, robberies, harassment and criminal to such an extent that some are emboldened to abuse damage. The rate is nearly three times that of the and attack the Chinese and East Asian community. previous two years. I believe that those figures are just Those in positions of responsibility have done very little the tip of the iceberg. In conversations that I have had to call out the racism or to challenge the fake news and with representatives from the Chinese community in hate speech. London, I have been told that attacks are far more common. They are under-reported, because the community do not believe that the police take their complaints Catherine West: Does my hon. Friend the shadow seriously. To allude to the point made by my hon. Minister agree that those in authority, including police Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green colleagues, could have better training on this specific (Catherine West), the issue is about training as well. sort of racism, given the pandemic? The lack of vocal Government support and the severe cuts to policing over the last decade have left the community Bambos Charalambous: My hon. Friend makes an despondent. They feel that they have no empathy or excellent point on an issue that I will come to later in my understanding of the effect that such attacks have. I am speech. Training is absolutely essential so that people pleased to see that the community are getting organised recognise and treat seriously any forms of racism, so on this issue and demanding action. One group that that it is dealt with swiftly and so that people are not they have formed is End the Virus of Racism. I congratulate frightened to report it. it on calling for zero tolerance for racism and for the full It is deeply disappointing to hear the President of the protection of the law following the threefold increase in United States, Donald Trump, call coronavirus the China hate crime towards people of South-East Asian and virus and give legitimacy to this racist trope. It is also Chinese heritage during the coronavirus crisis. The police deeply regrettable that nothing has been done to challenge must take hate crime seriously and listen to victims; this view by our Government. Nobody has spoken out otherwise, it will continue to be under-reported. against it, and that desperately needs to happen. I hope that the Minister will deal with that in her remarks. Catherine West: From his previous job as a lawyer, is The Government have a moral duty to keep our the shadow Minister aware of a lot of cases that have communities safe, and that includes speaking out against been prosecuted, or is this an under-prosecuted area? hate speech and dispelling falsehoods no matter where they come from. The explosion of hate speech on social Bambos Charalambous: Again, my hon. Friend makes media has been alarming. I know that the most mainstream an excellent point. Where there is a lack of empathy, platforms are taking steps to remove false information there is also a lack of cases that proceed to trial. I am and hateful content. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton not aware of the actual figures for this issue, but rape is South (Rachel Hopkins) mentioned the 200,000 hashtags also an issue where the lack of empathy with victims of hate speech and conspiracy theories against the leads to fewer cases going to trial. The victims do not Chinese and East Asian communities, which was quite want to take it further because they do not feel they will alarming. Recently, the Select Committee on Home be treated seriously. There is an excellent rape review by Affairs had a session in which it heard that Facebook the Victims’ Commissioner for London, which I highly had deleted 9.6 million hate speech posts in the first recommend. quarter of 2020; 9.6 million is an alarming number, and I welcome the calls for greater research, a national that is just the ones that it has removed. strategy and a taskforce to scrutinise the data and The issue is not just content removal. That is not address the impact on community cohesion—hon. enough on its own. More needs to be done to dismantle Members also raised the need for more community the microtargeting of ads and the algorithms that cohesion. The increase in hate crime has fuelled a steep recommend the next piece of visible content, which may rise in demand for victim support and has put additional be just as harmful. This rabbit hole is compounding the pressure on community groups, but at the same time effects of online hate speech and fake news. The ads and their income has been slashed and their resources are 123WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 124WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 more stretched than they have ever been. Any solution many contributions. It was powerful to hear about the to hate crime must include the Government funding of experiences of the hon. Lady, particularly when she was those vital services. My hon. Friend the Member for at school, and the frightening experiences that she was Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) made a point about subjected to. Also, however, the account of the hon. the need for helplines, and these communities need Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West), funding so that the helplines can function in this time of including the experience of one of the mental health great need. workers in her constituency, was very powerful, as was In July, the Commission for Countering Extremism the speech by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside produced an excellent paper entitled “How hateful (Kim Johnson), in which she outlined some of the extremists are exploiting the pandemic”. It highlighted historic events in her constituency, which are still felt how different communities were experiencing racism very acutely by the community there. due to the pandemic. It said: I am sure that some hon. Members will know that “Government needs to include clear plans to counter extremism one of the most famous poems in the Chinese language in their response to this and future crises. It should also publish a is actually about this country. The poem “On Leaving new counter-extremism strategy urgently to ensure that it can Cambridge”, by Xu Zhimo, was written nearly a hundred strategically respond to the activities of extremists in our country. years ago. However, it has stood the test of time, not … This strategy should include: An assessment of how extremism just in the canon of Chinese literature but as a powerful manifests locally, the harm it causes, the scale of support for extremist narratives and how best to pre-empt extremist activity. symbol of the ties that bind our country with the This should also include a mechanism to provide bespoke support Chinese-speaking world. These ties connect with every to local authorities most affected…An assessment of who is most part of our national life, from the people we elect to this susceptible to extremist narratives and a plan of what interventions House to our educational establishments, and from the they will put in place to engage and support those people…A food we eat to our own language. Few communities can commitment to ensure hateful extremism falls within the remit of claim to have had such a powerful effect on our culture, the new online harms regulator and that existing laws on inciting … and people of Chinese and East Asian heritage have hatred should be enforceable online Plans to build an understanding been particularly successful at integrating into the fabric of how conspiracy theories contribute to extremism. Including how they are utilised by extremists, what the scale, impact and of our society. Equally, few countries can claim to have harm is, and how to counter them…Separately, the Ministry of been as tolerant and as welcoming as the United Kingdom, Housing, Communities and Local Government must drive forward a place where people of all ethnicities are free to lead a COVID-19 cohesion strategy to help bring different communities successful and rewarding lives. together to prevent extremist narratives from having significant I deeply regret that the covid-19 pandemic has brought reach and influence.” out the very, very worst in a small minority of our That is from a Government-funded body. citizens. Chinese and East Asian communities, through Racism has no part in any civilised society and should absolutely no fault of their own, have had to contend be stamped out completely. To do that, we urgently with a significant and completely unacceptable rise in need sustained action. We need to call it out, tackle it hostility towards them, as has already been outlined. online and physically, and show solidarity with our According to police reporting, in the period following communities that are experiencing racism. We need to the start of the pandemic, Chinese and South-East ensure that complaints are properly dealt with and that Asian citizens accounted for 1% to 2% of all hate crime our communities are supported. victims, but they accounted for 12% to 18% of the In conclusion, I ask the Minister, when will the victims of hate crimes where covid-19 was mentioned. Government publicly speak out to condemn the anti- As the hon. Member for Luton North said, people Chinese hate speech and the racism against the Chinese were rightly horrified at the dreadful assault on Jonathan and East Asian community? When will she speak to her Mok, a Singaporean student who was badly injured in ministerial colleagues to ensure that more is done to central London. It is also very disturbing to read and remove online hate speech and algorithms that fuel hear about other such attacks. Although they are rarely hateful content? Will she speak to her colleagues to as violent as the one I have just mentioned, we can all ensure that the police take the reporting of hate speech agree—quite clearly, there is a consensus in Westminster seriously and work to build trust with the communities Hall today on this issue—that such incidents are abhorrent, affected? Finally, will she support the additional funding and totally and utterly unacceptable in the United for community groups representing those affected by Kingdom in 2020. racism and hate crime, and those providing support I am equally concerned by reports of people experiencing services? lower levels of intolerance. Although those actions have It is no surprise that the annual hate crime statistics, not always been criminal, they are undoubtedly immoral, which were released this morning, show an 8% increase dehumanising and totally distressing to the individuals in reported hate crime over the past 12 months. Unless who have to hear and live with such comments. This something is done now, there will be long-term damage type of prejudice has also had an impact on Chinese to community relations, which will take years, if not businesses, which had found themselves struggling for decades, to repair. I urge the Minister to take action custom even before the lockdown began. now. My Department works closely with Chinese and East Asian community organisations, and in those early 5.9 pm weeks of the pandemic we engaged with communities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, where we could see that tensions were rising. We held Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): community events and spoke to community members. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, They told us of a sudden change, and of increasingly Mrs Cummins, on your first day in the Chair. I thank negative social attitudes towards anyone believed to be the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) for Chinese. They reported the fear and anxiety experienced securing this vital debate, and hon. Members for their by people who had not faced such hostility before. They 125WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 126WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 [Kelly Tolhurst] tourism or access to our world-class education system, which we spoke about this afternoon. Also, our generous also expressed concern that their communities were not offer to those from Hong Kong eligible to come to always well served by portrayals in the media, not least make a new life here stands as testament to our solidarity. the labelling of covid-19 in some quarters as “the Chinese Although the level of hate crime towards people of virus”, as has been outlined by a number of Members Chinese and East Asian heritage appears to have reduced here today. I am totally against such labelling. since earlier this year, the Government have no interest One of the comments by the hon. Member for Luton in showing complacency. North was about the “cesspit” of social media. We are We will continue to ensure that victims are supported in agreement on that point. After this debate, I hope wherever possible and to bring people who carry out that the media will reflect on their use of images when hateful attacks to justice. We already have one of the reporting on covid-19. I absolutely understand the pain strongest legislative frameworks in the world to protect and anguish caused to individuals who are living in the communities from hostility, violence and bigotry and to United Kingdom. Obviously, as outlined, the online deal with the perpetrators of hate crime. Wewill strengthen harms White Paper is coming, and one of the commitments that framework through measures set out in our online in that is to form a communications campaign about harms White Paper and bring forward world-leading hate crime. Part of that will involve working through legislation to make the UK the safest place to be online. some of those issues with the Society of Editors and the We intend to establish in law a new duty of care on Independent Press Standards Organisation. companies towards their users, which will be overseen I want to be clear, as Members in the Chamber have by the independent regulator, and we will not stop there. said, that no single community is responsible for the We have asked the Law Commission to undertake a full spread of the disease, and no single person should face review of the coverage and approach of hate crime abuse for it, in anyway,shape or form. We,this Government, legislative provisions. It has opened a public consultation condemn that completely.Wecondemned it at the time—the and will report to Ministers early next year. Minister for Faith and Communities did so publicly, We will also consult on our hate crime action plan. It and so did the Home Secretary—and I, today, condemn has guided our work over the past four years and has it again. been well regarded, but now is the time to consider David Linden: As we reflect on the deeply special whether we can be even more ambitious. We will consult relationship that Britain has with America, will the widely in the coming months to ensure that we build an Minister undertake to raise with the Foreign Office that effective new approach, which will benefit from the strong representations should be made from Whitehall input of many of our diverse communities. I look to Washington, DC, that that kind of language is forward to the Chinese and East Asian communities unacceptable? Will that message be conveyed from London? playing their part. Kelly Tolhurst: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I I want to pick up on a point made by the hon. speak regularly with my colleagues across Departments Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) when dealing with a whole host of issues that affect the about the police. He highlighted the annual statistics United Kingdom, in particular in my new role as in the that were reported today. One of the elements that Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. shows progress in this area is that we are seeing more of I have only been in post for about three weeks now. I an understanding from the police of what hate crime is will definitely pass that sentiment on to the Foreign and and the ability to categorise it, so that it is being better Commonwealth Office. reported. I hope that we will continue to see that work in the statistics, but I totally agree with the comments Catherine West: While the Minister is talking to her that have been made: while we are seeing progress in this colleagues in Government, will she also speak to the space, we need to continue with the work to make sure Universities Minister to say that this debate has raised that the complexities are understood and articulated in the specific issue of international students such as Mr Mok, the reporting, and that when individuals feel they want whose case was talked about, and to ask for an action to report to the police, they are comfortable in doing plan to deal with it? that. I was pleased to hear that 87% of the Chinese Kelly Tolhurst: I commit to doing as the hon. Lady community surveyed trusted their local police, in asked. It is important that we remain committed to, and comparison with the national average of, I believe, just steadfast in standing up for anyone who finds themselves over 76%. a victim of hate crime or of any hate, because, sadly, our On spending to work with our communities, we have Chinese and East Asian communities are not alone in committed to spend through the faith, race and hate that experience. We know that bigots are only too crime grant scheme, which enables local groups to bid happy to spread hatred against Jewish and Muslim for grants for work, including with schools and young communities and others if it suits them. people. That is a £1.5 million pot. We also have the This Government have a zero-tolerance approach to integrated communities action plan, with more than those who commit such acts. The perpetrators of hate 70 commitments within that plan, and we are working crimes in relation to covid-19 are being punished. The towards completing them. Crown Prosecution Service has prosecuted a number of Comments have been made about members of my people for crimes involving racist abuse on the basis of party. I am not here to speak for individuals, and I am perceived Chinese ethnicity. We will continue to stand unaware of some of the details. One thing I am very shoulder to shoulder with people of Chinese and East comfortable to say is that the party I represent stands Asian heritage, and this Government have shown that against any form of racism. I am very proud to be part time and again, supporting not only those who have of a party that holds that position, whether people made these islands their home, but people who visit for agree or not. In my role as a Minister in MHCLG, I will 127WH Chinese and East Asian Communities: 13 OCTOBER 2020 Chinese and East Asian Communities: 128WH Racism during Covid-19 Racism during Covid-19 do all I can to make sure that all communities in our The Minister started by saying that this is a vital country have equality and feel parity through the work debate. It is a vital debate, and I am really grateful that we are doing. It is something that I have had experience hon. Friends have come here to represent their communities of in other roles as a Minister in this Government over and provide support, but the Minister is here because the past two years. I am looking forward to working she has to be. Where are her colleagues? There are six with colleagues as we progress the action plans as we seats empty on her side; not a single Conservative, not a move through covid. single Government Member, decided to turn up. I know This week being National Hate Crime Awareness that this is Westminster Hall and it is supposed to be Week, it is a moment to reflect on the challenges that less political, but what message does that send to our confront us and reaffirm our commitment to tackling communities? It sends a damning message. hatred. I believe that today’s debate has been an important I wanted to pick up on some of the points that my part of that, and we should all stand together to condemn hon. Friends have raised, because they are important to hatred and bigotry in all forms, and focus instead on solving this problem. My hon. Friend the Member for what ties bind us together. I end by thanking everyone Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) spoke eloquently for their contributions to today’s debate, and look forward and passionately about the history. The Minister talked to further conversations with colleagues as we progress about our integration: it started in Liverpool, Riverside, some of the work I have outlined this afternoon. the home of one of the oldest ethnic communities in 5.25 pm this country. She also spoke about the importance of education about that history; I do not know how many Sarah Owen: Please forgive me, Mrs Cummins; I people really understand or fully know the damage that should have said that it is a great honour to be serving was caused by those forced deportations of Chinese under your chairmanship. I did not realise it was your sailors, ripping the hearts out of families and entire first day in the Chair, so thank you. generations. Having a helpline is fantastic, and it should I will start by picking up on some of the Minister’s be celebrated and supported, but again, the community comments. First, I am grateful to hear her condemnation is having to step up when the state has stepped back. of hate crimes and racism against Chinese, East Asian My hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood and South-East Asian communities, and I know that Green (Catherine West) was absolutely right to speak the community will be really glad to hear it. As I said in about the pain our community faces when it comes to my speech, it is a low bar just to ask for condemnation mental health. We have all found this period really of racism, but it is a start, and I am grateful to the difficult, with loneliness, losses of earnings and of loved Minister for it. She was absolutely right to mention ones, and being separated, but add to that being blamed Chinese businesses: for many of these businesses, the and being scared to go out of the front door. It is not pain occurred well before lockdown, well before other just hate crime that our community has suffered: thousands businesses started to see their profits decline and started of healthcare workers have come from China and all having to lay off staff. That pain is continuing, and we over South-East and East Asia, and those workers are need to do serious amounts of work to ensure that the very people who we stood on our doorsteps and community, and that business community, is supported clapped for, yet we cannot say that we are going to throughout this pandemic like so many others should be. protect them. More Filipino nurses, healthcare workers Picking up on the Minister’s second point about the and carers have died in this country than in the Philippines online harms Bill, I am heartened by that Bill, because during the pandemic. we have heard countless examples of why it is absolutely necessary.I said that social media is a cesspit; it genuinely I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South is, and it needs cleaning up. One area that I would like (Rachel Hopkins). the Government to concentrate on and look into through Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). the online harms Bill is the comments sections of news outlets, which I know is an area that the Government 5.30 pm have been resistant to include in that Bill’s regulations. Sitting adjourned.

9WS Written Statements 13 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 10WS

This vital Government funding is a vital boost for the Written Statements theatres, music venues, museums and cultural organisations that form the soul of our nation. It will protect these Tuesday 13 October 2020 special places, save jobs and help the culture sector’s recovery. DEFENCE These funds are supporting cultural beacons the length and breadth of the country—from the Beamish museum Overseas Defence Operations in County Durham to the Birmingham Royal Ballet and the Bristol Old Vic. The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): The theatre by the Lake, in Keswick, for example will The Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) receive over £800,000 in support which recognises its Bill currently before this House will provide reassurance importance as the biggest employer in the area, the to service personnel that we have taken steps to help devastating impact coronavirus has had on it and theatres protect them from the threat of repeated investigations more widely, and the importance of safeguarding this and potential prosecution in connection with historical wonderful cultural institution for the future. operations overseas many years after the events in question. Or, to take another example, Yorkshire Sculpture However, we are also clear that there should be timely Park, Wakefield: this cherished organisation will receive consideration of serious and credible allegations and, £804,000 to help the park to adapt its buildings to new where appropriate, a swift and effective investigation regulations and help it reopen safely.Yorkshire Sculpture followed by prosecution, if warranted. In the rare cases Park shows work by British and international artists of real wrongdoing, the culprits should be swiftly and including Henry Moore and Barbara Hepworth. appropriately dealt with. In doing so, this will provide greater certainty to all parties that the justice system This is good news not only for these organisations processes will deliver an appropriate outcome without but for towns, cities and workers in these sectors across undue delay. the country—it will help to protect jobs and ensure our I am therefore commissioning a review so that we can beloved local arts venue can remain afloat and support be sure that, for those complex and serious allegations culture in many communities. of wrongdoing against UK forces which occur overseas On top of this investment the culture sector has on operations, we have the most up to date and future-proof benefited from the job retention scheme, self-employment framework, skills and processes in place and can make income support scheme, the bounce back loan scheme, improvements where necessary.The review will be judge-led a reduction in VAT from 20% to 5% for tourism and and forward looking and, whilst drawing on insights hospitality firms for six months. from the handling of allegations from recent operations, will not seek to reconsider past investigative or prosecutorial I want to reaffirm that we recognise the crucial role decisions or reopen historical cases. It will consider that individuals play in making our arts and creative processes in the service police and Service Prosecuting industries world-leading. Authority as well as considering the extent to which such investigations are hampered by potential barriers The culture recovery fund will benefit freelancers, in the armed forces, for example, cultural issues or because it will invest in organisations and help them to operational processes. A key part of the review will be reopen, and restart performances which will provide its recommendations for any necessary improvements. more opportunities for freelancers to be engaged again. It will seek to build upon and not reopen the It will also help many put on cultural activity within recommendations of the service justice system review this financial year which would not have been possible by HH Shaun Lyons and Sir Jon Murphy. Work by the without this funding. Department in response to the service justice system review is continuing to be taken forward separately. Additionally, to complement this funding for I expect the review will report to me in around organisations, this year, the Arts Council has made over nine months’ time. £115 million of funding available for individuals, including freelancers, to apply to, including £18 million for the [HCWS507] Developing Your Creative Practice programme which will open for applications this Thursday. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Regarding next steps, we are working flat out to support these sectors and to get the remainder of the Culture Recovery Fund: Arts Funding funding and support out to those who need it most as quickly as possible. The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage): There will be further announcements about hundreds I am pleased to inform the House that yesterday we of millions of pounds of allocations in the coming announced 1,385 cultural organisations will share over weeks to support the UK’s incredible culture, heritage, £257 million from the culture recovery fund to help arts and creative industries. support arts and culture organisations through the coronavirus pandemic. The Government are here for culture. Help is on its way with more to come in the days and weeks ahead so This represents the biggest award to date of the that the cultural sector—the soul of our nation—can culture recovery fund and means we have now provided bounce back strongly. over £360 million to support cultural and heritage institutions across England. [HCWS509] 11WS Written Statements 13 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 12WS

EDUCATION to more of the country from spring 2021, and we also want to extend this model to include other technical skills training. The Prime Minister also announced, as part of his Adult Skills and National Retraining Scheme lifetime skills guarantee, that for all adults who do not currently have an A-level equivalent, we will be fully funding their first full level 3, focusing on the valuable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education courses that will help them get ahead in the labour (Gillian Keegan): Today, I want to update both Houses market. on further policy developments we are making as part Through our development of the national retraining of our efforts to help boost productivity, ensure that scheme, we have also undertaken qualitative research businesses can find and hire the skilled workers they into online training tailored for adults’needs. Our findings need, and help people to fulfil their potential. The have shown that online training has the ability to deliver impact of the current situation and the longer-term learning at a time and pace that would fit in with the challenges we are likely to face have underlined the busy lives that users have. It could also reach the more ever-present need to support all adults in gaining new remote areas of the country where users might struggle skills that employers value, whether to progress in work to access provision at a time that works best for them. or to boost their job prospects. This has informed the development of the skills toolkit, Last month, the Prime Minister visited Exeter College which has recently expanded to provide access to even and set out an exciting vision to make lifelong learning more high-quality, free courses, to help all adults gain a reality, announcing new opportunities to help more the confidence and skills they need to move into new people to realise their talents, develop new skills and jobs, potentially in completely new sectors of the pursue their careers. With that broader vision in mind, jobs market. wanting to reduce complexity in the adult skills landscape We remain firmly committed to working with industry, and recognising the need to work closely with a wide workers, and providers. That is why we plan to engage range of key stakeholders and experts, we are integrating extensively with these groups right across the country the national retraining scheme into the national skills through the upcoming consultation on the national fund. The national retraining scheme will no longer skills fund. continue as a separate programme but rather its work Our strong evidence base, delivered through the national and learning will be rolled into the development of the retraining scheme, is summarised in a key findings national skills fund. This will be reflected in wider paper that will be published today at: communications around the national skills fund and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national- our broader offer for adult skills. It will include the retraining-scheme. The paper sets out how the extensive conclusion of the trials of the Get Help to retrain learnings and evidence from the scheme will support service, a digital platform that helped adults identify our ambitious plans for levelling up across the country their existing skills as well as new training options. and help to ensure everyone can get the skills they need, The findings we have gathered by testing Get help to at every stage of their life. retrain have already provided useful insights for the We will set out wider plans for adult skills later in the National Careers Service. This will help inform the further autumn and we will update the Houses in due course. In development of the National Careers Service website the meantime, we will engage closely with stakeholders for people considering a change to their career. as we continue to develop detailed plans for the national The understanding and insights we achieved through skills fund, including considering what role the fund high levels of research and comprehensive user engagement could play in meeting more immediate needs in response while developing the national retraining scheme have to the covid-19 pandemic. also produced a strong foundation for developing the [HCWS506] national skills fund and other adult skills reforms. As both Houses know, the national skills fund is a long term, substantial investment of £2.5 billion—£3 billion HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL included devolved Administrations—that will drive adult GOVERNMENT retraining and support our ambitious agenda for reform to further education. Rough Sleeping Our engagement with employers on the national retraining scheme ensured we were better sighted on the skills they need their workers to have, as well as the need The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and for a more flexible approach to the delivery of skills. Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Today, I have Greater flexible provision was a clear need for both the announced additional support for rough sleepers this employers and the individual. Both of these factors winter, giving local areas the tools they need to protect have been central to the design and delivery of the people from life-threatening cold weather and risks bootcamps announced in the Prime Minister’s speech, posed by covid-19. which are a key element of the national skills fund offer. During the pandemic, we have worked closely with local The bootcamps will support local regions and employers authorities and the sector to offer vulnerable people to fill in-demand digital vacancies. The impact of the safe accommodation and support. That work is on- covid crisis has shown that digital skills are in demand going and in September we had successfully supported now more than ever, so these flexible initiatives will be over 29,000 people, with over 10,000 in emergency instrumental in giving all adults the skills employers accommodation and nearly 19,000 provided with settled need. We are planning to expand the digital bootcamps accommodation or move on support. 13WS Written Statements 13 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 14WS

TheseeffortshavebeenbackedbysignificantGovernment TRANSPORT support. We have given councils over £4.8 billion to help them to manage the impacts of covid-19, which we have been clear includes their work to support rough sleepers. Over the summer we worked with every local Space Industry Act 2018: Insurance and Liabiities authority to develop a local, tailored plan to support rough sleepers over the coming months. This has been supported by £91.5 million of funding from the Next The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Steps Accommodation programme,allocated in September. (Rachel Maclean): I am today publishing the consultation on the draft insurance, liabilities and charging requirements Today’s announcement further builds on this existing to implement the Space Industry Act 2018. This package of support over winter, setting out a plan that consultation seeks views on the operability and effectiveness gives local areas a range of levers to support vulnerable of the proposed liabilities, insurance and charging rough sleepers as we approach winter. requirements to implement the Space Industry Act 2018, First, there will be a new £10 million cold weather including the use of licence conditions to cover insurance fund for local authorities to bring forward covid-secure requirements. It also seeks views on the draft Space accommodation this winter. Industry (Liabilities) Regulations and the associated guidance documents, as well as to gather new evidence Secondly, we will be working intensively with the and test the assumptions in the consultation-stage impact areas in greatest need, in recognition of the particular assessment. challenges they face. The UK’s space sector is a unique national asset, and Thirdly, recognising the vital role of the faith and this Government are committed to growing this exciting communities sector, we are establishing a new £2 million industry. Our regulatory framework for spaceflight will transformation fund to ensure the voluntary sector can support safe and sustainable activities that will drive bring forward covid-secure accommodation. research, innovation and entrepreneurship in this vital sector, exploiting the unique environment of space, and Finally, we are publishing comprehensive guidance to providing a catalyst for growth across the space sector. the sector,produced with Public Health England, Homeless Harnessing the opportunities provided by commercial Link (the umbrella organisation for homelessness charities) spaceflight will also feed into our emerging national and Housing Justice, to help them open shelters more space strategy, the Government’s agenda to level-up the safely, where not doing so would endanger lives. We UK, and global Britain. know that some night shelters are planning to re-open imminently and our operating principles and additional Government and industry have set a target to grow funding package will help shelter providers and local the UK’s share of the global market to 10% by 2030. To authorities make any additional winter provision safer support this, our spaceflight programme aims to establish from the spread of covid-19. commercial vertical and horizontal small satellite launch, sub-orbital spaceflight and space tourism from UK Today’s announcement is on top of the £112 million spaceports. To expand the UK’s spaceflight capabilities, rough sleeping initiative funding provided to local Government are funding a range of industry-led projects. authorities in 2020-21, as well as the recently announced Separately, we are investing in related facilities and funding allocations to provide interim support and technology.This will provide industry with new commercial winter funding as part of the Next Steps Accommodation market opportunities, grow our export share and help programme. We will also be bringing forward 3,300 to build new UK supply chains. longer-term units of accommodation this year. In total, Liabilities and insurance requirements the Government are spending over £700 million to An important element of the Space Industry Act tackle homelessness and rough sleeping this year alone. 2018 concerns operators’ liabilities arising from their We remain committed to transforming the lives of some spaceflight activity. Under UN space treaties, the UK of the most vulnerable in society, and to ending rough Government are ultimately liable to pay compensation sleeping for good. for damage caused by their space objects on the surface In addition, the Government have injected over £9 billion of the Earth or to aircraft in flight, and liable for into the welfare system, including helping people with damage due to its faults in space. This means that housing costs by increasing local housing allowance another state suffering damage can bring a claim against rates to the 30th percentile—putting an average of the UK Government under the UN space treaties. The £600 into people’s pockets this year. We have taken Space Industry Act 2018 places an obligation on an action to protect tenants and support them to stay in operator carrying out spaceflight activities to indemnify their homes. Most recently, we have increased notice the Government or listed person or body for any claims periods to six months meaning that anyone served brought against them for loss or damage caused by notice today can stay in their home until mid-March in those activities. It also includes liability provisions to all but the most egregious cases, such as those involving provide the general public in the UK with easy recourse antisocial behaviour. to compensation. We recognise that this is an important issue for the We will set out further detail about how local areas UK space sector and understand that we need to create can access this winter funding and support imminently, the right environment for the UK to be competitive and and I encourage all relevant partners and local authorities for our British companies to compete on the global to consider how they can best use this funding to save stage. We have listened to the concerns industry has lives this winter. raised about liabilities and insurance and our consultation [HCWS510] sets out approach to address those concerns, as well as 15WS Written Statements 13 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 16WS other issues relating to insurance and liabilities. This and revised delivery into service date. This permitted follows a call for evidence on these matters published in HS2 Ltd’s main works civils contractors to begin March 2018. construction of phase 1. I was delighted to see the We are proposing to limit operator liability and use Prime Minister mark this significant milestone officially the modelled insurance requirement approach, which is by visiting Birmingham interchange a few weeks ago. considered to be critical to enabling launch and unlocking Authorising the main works signalled the Government’s the benefits of spaceflight. commitment to invest in our economic recovery in The insurance proposals and liabilities regulations response to covid. HS2 is central to our plans to build are part of the package of regulations needed to implement back better and will stimulate economic growth and the Space Industry Act 2018 and to allow commercial rebalance opportunity across this country in the short, spaceflight launches to take place from the UK. They medium and long term. supplement the consultation which was launched on HS2 phase 1 is just the first step in levelling-up our 29 July 2020 on the draft Space Industry Regulations, great economic regions and better connecting the north, which covers the other secondary legislation and guidance the midlands and London. That is why we are progressing needed to enable commercial spaceflight in the UK. legislation to deliver phase 2a to provide a high speed Together with the Department for Business, Energy line from the west midlands to Crewe, where trains will and Industrial Strategy, the UK Space Agency and continue further north via the west coast main line. The Civil Aviation Authority, we have legislated to allow for phase 2a Bill is currently in the House of Lords. The the regulation of a wide range of new commercial Select Committee has finished hearing petitions and we spaceflight technologies, including traditional vertically await its report. launched vehicles, air-launched vehicles and sub-orbital To deliver HS2 phase 2b and Northern Powerhouse spaceplanes and balloons. It is our intention to merge Rail more effectively alongside other transport schemes, the draft Liabilities and Space Industry Regulations an integrated plan for rail in the north and the midlands once the consultations have concluded. is being developed. This will be informed by an assessment Next steps from the National Infrastructure Commission, expected at the end of 2020. The integrated rail plan will set out The deadline for responses to the consultation is the the form, scope and phasing of the phase 2b route. It 10 November, following which I will update the House will also inform decisions on how to improve links to and publish the Government’sresponse to the consultation. and from Scotland to strengthen the connectivity of the [HCWS505] Union. Achievements in this first reporting period include: HS2 Six-monthly Report to Parliament Getting on with delivery by approving the phase 1 full business case and authorising the start of construction, supporting the industry and wider economy as part of the covid response. Indeed, HS2 Ltd and its supply chain supports The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Andrew over 13,000 jobs, including over 400 apprenticeships. At Stephenson): This Government have committed to provide peak construction, this will increase to 30,000 jobs. an update to Parliament every six months on the progress Getting a stronger grip on delivery to time and budget by of High Speed 2 (HS2), of which this is the first. This establishing the ministerial task force for phases 1 and 2a, report covers data reported by HS2 Ltd to the end of chaired by the Secretary of State for Transport, and attended August 2020.1 have placed a copy of the report in the by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the Minister of Libraries of both Houses. State at the Cabinet Office, the Minister of State for Regional Overview Growth and Local Government and myself. We have also strengthened the board of HS2 Ltd by appointing three After careful consideration of the independent Oakervee additional non-executive directors. review and wider evidence, including the National Audit Putting the people and communities impacted by the scheme Office’s (NAO’s) progress update, the Prime Minister at the centre of our work by reviewing the land and property confirmed to Parliament in February 2020 that the acquisition programme, the approach to compensation and, Government would proceed with HS2. The Government importantly, how HS2 Ltd supports and engages with people intend HS2 to become the spine of the country’s transport along the route. The review will be published shortly. network, bringing our biggest cities closer together, Revisiting how best to deliver Euston station as recommended boosting productivity and rebalancing the economy in the Oakervee review, with the aim of providing an improved and opportunity for people across the country. It will design and better delivery strategy. This includes revised also help meet our commitment to bring all greenhouse governance providing closer collaboration between HS2 Ltd gas emissions to net zero by 2050, by providing a better and Network Rail, through the new Euston partnership board chaired by Sir Peter Hendy. alternative to regional air and road travel. Developing the integrated rail plan for the north and midlands. In taking this decision, the Prime Minister and Secretary This work focuses on reducing overall costs, identifying the of State for Transport made clear the importance of a correct schemes and sequencing to improve rail services and tighter grip by the Government on the delivery of the to determine how best to improve rail connectivity with project and of the need for full transparency. That is Scotland. A separate ministerial task force is also overseeing why we have consulted the chairs of the Public Accounts preparation of the integrated rail plan. Committee and Transport Select Committee in providing Continuing the preparation of legislation for the phase 2b this report to Parliament, and I intend it to provide western leg into Manchester, reflecting the findings in the clear information about our progress. Oakervee review that phase 2b should be delivered in smaller sections with legislation brought forward as it is ready. This In April, the full business case for the first phase of includes the design refinement consultation launched on the scheme between the west midlands and London, 7 October. The integrated rail plan will set out the form, HS2 phase 1, was approved with an increased budget scope and phasing of the phase 2b route, across the western 17WS Written Statements 13 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 18WS

and eastern legs, and the Government will therefore consider Updated cost estimates will be provided for the phase 2b responses to this consultation alongside the outcomes of the links to Manchester and Leeds once the integrated rail integrated rail plan. plan is concluded. At this stage, ongoing design work Setting out our intent to establish enhanced reporting suggests some further pressure on the most recent estimates arrangements to demonstrate how HS2 Ltd is meeting the but this depends in part on decisions on the route and Government’s environmental priorities. sequencing, as well as decisions about the appropriate Programme update on affordability, schedule and delivery level of contingency to provide at this stage. We will affordability provide further information as this work matures including Earlier this year, the Government reset the funding as part of preparing legislation for the HS2 route from regime for HS2, including a target cost and funding Crewe into Manchester. envelope for phase 1 and revised estimates for the wider Schedule scheme. The total funding envelope for phase 1 was set at £44.6 billion (2019 prices) and the estimated cost for On phase 1, the delivery into service (DIS) range for completing the full network was revised to a range of initial services from Old Oak Common to Birmingham £72 billion to £98 billion. Curzon Street remains 2029 to 2033. HS2 Ltd continues to predict that it will provide services within this range For phase 1, including Euston, HS2 Ltd projects an but notes some pressures on the earliest date from covid outturn cost at £40.3 billion (2019 prices) which is at the impacts and delayed handovers from enabling works, level of its target cost. This projection remains uncertain which it is seeking to mitigate. Schedule estimates will at this early stage in the project’s lifecycle, as with all be more reliable once the main works are fully mobilised major infrastructure projects, and does not yet reflect next summer and once the rail systems elements have the impact of covid. HS2 Ltd is expected to provide its been contracted. estimate of the covid impact within the next six months. Any cost changes will be contained within the funding The overall response to covid by HS2 Ltd and its envelope using the contingency already assigned. construction partners has been positive with the rapid implementation of safe working practices to protect the Of the £40.3 billion, £9.6 billion has been spent public and workers and the reopening of the majority to date,a further £11.5 billion is contracted, and £13.9 billion of sites after a safety review. However, some works have is yet to be contracted and remains an HS2 Ltd estimate. been delayed and at some sites covid-safe practices have The target cost also includes available HS2 Ltd delegated necessarily reduced productivity to a limited degree. contingency of £5.3 billion for managing the risk and uncertainty that are an inherent part of delivering major The range for initial opening of services from Euston projects. HS2 Ltd is currently reporting cost pressures remains 2031-2036, subject to further work on the study of £0.8 billion. If not successfully remediated, these of design and delivery options. pressures will be drawn against the company’s delegated Schedule ranges for phases 2a and 2b will be established contingency. These pressures are driven by: once their scopes are finalised. Enabling works to prepare the line of route for construction. Delivery progress These have been underway since 2017 and in some areas have encountered more significant challenges than anticipated, The main works civils contractors are currently taking such as the need to safely remove more asbestos than expected, possession of sites along the line of route on phase 1 resulting in increased scope and duration. These additional and mobilising their workforces and equipment, including costs are likely to be in the order of £0.4 billion according to the delivery of tunnel boring machines. Significant works HS2 Ltd. are already under way at several sites. Euston station, where further development of the baseline The three other phase 1 stations, Birmingham Curzon scheme has identified a significant cost pressure, which HS2 Ltd is currently reporting as in the order of £0.4 billion. Street, Birmingham interchange and Old Oak Common, Further work is ongoing to validate these initial estimates have now received schedule 17 planning consents. and this could identify further pressure. As this remains at Procurement is under way for the construction of Curzon the design stage, work is under way to consider opportunities, Street and interchange stations and design refinement is efficiencies and scope reductions in order to redress these underway at Old Oak Common ahead of approving the pressures and we will report further on this in the next start of construction. report. The procurement of rail systems packages for track, The total funding envelope for phase 1 remains at catenary, power, control and communications systems £44.6 billion (2019 prices). This includes further available has begun. Contracts for two packages, slab track and contingency of £4.3 billion over and above that delegated cross passage doors, have been awarded. The procurement to HS2 Ltd, which is retained by the Department for of the rolling stock supplier continues and will be Transport and Her Majesty’s Treasury. I am determined awarded in the summer of next year. to carefully scrutinise the use of contingency to ensure that it is sufficient to cover issues that may emerge later The timeline to achieve Royal Assent of the phase 2a in the project and will provide updates to Parliament Bill by the end of the year is challenging, but remains through these reports. feasible subject to Parliament’s will. The overall phase 2a cost is currently estimated as in As noted above, preparations are now under way for the range of £5-7 billion (2019 prices). This remains in a hybrid Bill for the western leg of phase 2b (Crewe to line with the estimate set out at the time of the Prime Manchester). A consultation on design refinements to Minister’s announcement on 11 February and the NAO support future use of HS2 infrastructure as part of update of January 2020. Firmer ranges and a target Northern Powerhouse Rail was launched on 7 October. cost will be confirmed, subject to the scheme being At the same time a route wide update, decisions on approved by Parliament and based on the scope and changes previously consulted in 2019, and revised property undertakings in the Act. safeguarding were published for the western leg. 19WS Written Statements 13 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 20WS

Community and environmental impact HS2 Ltd is also working in partnership with local Since my appointment as Minister for HS2, I have communities to create new woodlands, diverse habitats sought to increase the focus on managing HS2’s impact and community green spaces beyond the construction on communities along the line of route and on the boundary. Funding provided through the phase 1 natural environment. £40 million community and environment fund and the business and local economy fund has seen over 126 projects Securing the land and property needed to construct awarded funding of over £7.7 million. the line of route across all phases is vital to the programme’s Forward look success and is often the first impact that we have on line of route communities. A range of statutory and non- For phase 1, the focus for the coming year will see the statutory property compensation schemes are available continued mobilisation of the phase 1 construction that seek to compensate affected parties fairly while programme and commencement of civil engineering protecting the public purse. and tunnelling activities alongside further contract awards for stations, rolling stock and systems. I will continue Our policy is to provide fair compensation for those to focus on the control of schedule and cost, while directly and indirectly impacted but the process and implementing the reforms on land and property acquisition, disputes for claims can inevitably be traumatic for some. managing the impact of construction on local communities, I therefore commissioned a detailed review of the acquisition and improving environmental performance and reporting. and compensation process to ensure that there is a renewed focus on those who are being impacted by the Subject to Parliament’s will, the phase 2a Bill will new railway. The report will be published shortly and continue through its final legislative stages to secure we will move to consult where appropriate on the proposed authority for construction of the route to Crewe and reforms. northern destinations via the west coast main line. We will continue to define the scope and scheme for Some £3.6 billion has now been spent acquiring land phase 2b as part of the work to conclude the integrated and property and in the order of 1,250 properties have rail plan and to prepare a hybrid Bill for the western leg been acquired to date across the three phases of HS2. from Crewe to Manchester. The majority of this is from phase 1 where £3.3 billion has been spent to date. I will continue to engage closely with Members of Parliament and will provide my next report to Parliament I want to make sure that HS2 Ltd and its contractors in April 2021. are as sensitive as possible to the impact of construction 1 on communities where impacts will unfortunately be Annex A: Period Financial Report unavoidable. HS2 Ltd needs to ensure that communities Forecast costs by phase are properly informed and consulted and that the impacts are minimised to the extent that is reasonable. I intend Total estimated Current to engage closely with Members of Parliament and the Phase Target cost costs range forecast communities that they represent and ensure HS2 Ltd is meeting the terms of its planning consents. 1 £40.3 billion £35-45 billion £40.3 billion 2a Not set yet £5-7 billion Not agreed I also intend to increase our efforts to limit the 2b Not set yet £32-46 billion 2 Not agreed impact of HS2 on the natural environment and to ensure its construction and operation is as low carbon Historic and forecast expenditure as possible. In the coming months, HS2 Ltd will establish a new 2020-21 environmental sustainability committee (as a sub- Phase Spend to date 2020-21 Budget Forecast committee of the HS2 Ltd board), led by its Chair, 1 £9.6 billion 3 £3.79 billion £3.46 billion Allan Cook. This committee will be charged with 2a £0.4 billion £0.18 billion £0.16 billion strengthening environmental sustainability reporting 2b £1.0 billion £0.25 billion £0.23 billion including the development and publication of an Total £11.0 billion £4.22 billion £3.85 billion environmental sustainability report. HS2 Ltd intends to publish the first report next year. 1 All figures in 2019 prices and excluding VAT. Correct as of HS2 Ltd has been working with Natural England 31 August 2020. 2 over the summer to enhance plans to support delivery Validation of the phase 2b cost range is ongoing and will be updated to support the bringing forward of separate legislation of the route wide, “no net loss to biodiversity” target. for the HS2 route into Manchester, in line with the conclusions of Following Royal Assent of the phase 2a Bill, HS2 Ltd the Oakervee review. The range provided excludes scope intended will continue to explore opportunities to enhance its to be funded by other sources such as Northern Powerhouse Rail. existing no net loss objective for that phase of the 3 Spend to date includes a £1 billion liability (provision) programme. It will identify and implement appropriate representing the Department’s obligation to purchase land and opportunities, where it is reasonably practicable, to move property. towards net gains in biodiversity. This will be supported [HCWS508] by a £2 million biodiversity fund. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 13 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND DEVELOPMENT DEVELOPMENT OFFICE...... 141 OFFICE—continued Amazon Rain Forest...... 146 Occupied Palestinian Territories and Israel...... 144 ASEAN Countries: UK Relations ...... 155 President of Belarus...... 154 Climate Change: International Co-operation...... 151 South China Sea ...... 154 Education for Girls ...... 143 Topical Questions ...... 156 FCO/DFID Merger ...... 145 Transition Period: Cabinet Discussions...... 152 Hong Kong: National Security Law...... 141 Trinidad and Tobago: Repatriation...... 142 Iran: BBC Persian Journalists ...... 147 UK Internal Market Bill: Diplomacy...... 149 Nagorno-Karabakh ...... 148 Wales and Welsh Businesses...... 155 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 13 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 9WS HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL Overseas Defence Operations...... 9WS GOVERNMENT...... 12WS Rough Sleeping...... 12WS DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 9WS Culture Recovery Fund: Arts Funding...... 9WS TRANSPORT ...... 14WS EDUCATION...... 11WS HS2 Six-monthly Report to Parliament ...... 15WS Adult Skills and National Retraining Scheme...... 11WS Space Industry Act 2018: Insurance and Liabiities. 14WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 20 October 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 682 Tuesday No. 118 13 October 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 13 October 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 141] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs

Public Health Restrictions: Government Economic Support [Col. 164] Answer to urgent question—(Steve Barclay)

School Breakfast [Col. 186] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mrs Lewell-Buck)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Public Health: Coronavirus Regulations [Col. 193] Motions—(Matt Hancock)—agreed to

Public Health [Col. 254] Motion—(Edward Argar)—on a Division, agreed to

Fisheries Bill [Lords] [Col. 258] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Victoria Prentice)—agreed to As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Women’s Rugby: Government Support [Col. 339] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Universal Basic Income [Col. 51WH] Fiscal Support for Events Industry: Covid-19 [Col. 75WH] RNLI and Independent Lifeboats: Covid-19 [Col. 81WH] Equalities Act 2010: Children from Disadvantaged Backgrounds [Col. 104WH] Chinese and East Asian Communities: Racism during Covid-19 [Col. 113WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 9WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]