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Courtesy of the National Archives and Records Service Lyndon Baines Johnson Library Courtesy of the National Archives and Records Service Lyndon Baines Johnson Library The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training oreign Affairs Oral History Pro$ect UNDER SECRETARY JOSEPH J. SISCO Interviewed by: Paige E. Mulhollan Initial interview date: November 6, 1971 TABLE OF CONTENTS Acquaintance with President Johnson None prior to nomination as Assistant Secretary for International Organi(ations )IO) Initial Meeting with Johnson About appointment as Assistant Secretary for IO September 19.5 Discussed 0.S. policy in 0N and world issues Cautioned against loc2s Impressed with Johnson3s depth and substance Johnson3s advice President Johnson3s Policies Continuity with 4ennedy policies Conflict with 0N Secretary 5eneral over 6ietnam Controversial Issues Arthur 5oldberg and 6ietnam Ta2ing 6ietnam issue to Security Council Johnson orders direct contact 7 Sisco7Johnson Sisco versus 5oldberg recommendations Soviets oppose 0N involvement in 6ietnam issue Sisco78hite House Direct Contacts Arab7Israeli issues 19.7 Security Council Resolution Johnson good listener 8hite House contacts Dean Rus2 Security Council Resolution 242 0S0N and Bureau relations 1 Johnson and Disagreements on Issues Cuban missile crisis 6ietnam Stevenson70. Thant Conversations Rus27Stevenson conversations 0. Thant 6ietnam meeting proposal Harriman 5roup 7 —Peace 5roup“ Composition Peace proposals Laos Conference Bill Sullivan Missed opportunities? Chet Cooper 19.7 London mission INTERVIEW Q: ou were during the Johnson Administration first, deputy assistant secretary for International Organi(ation Affairs, and then in 1965 made assistant secretary, where you finished out that administration. SISCO: That is correct. Q: Of course, you have been in NEA *Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs, since then with the Ni-on Administration. SISCO: That is correct. Q: .hen was the first time that you made any personal ac/uaintance with Mr. Johnson 0emember that far bac12 SISCO: Sure. In many ways, I thin2 this is going to prove about the only real contribution that I can ma2e to this oral history, because I had not 2nown President Johnson at all. Q: That4s a good way to start. SISCO: I was told on one of those days by Secretary Rus2 that he had recommended me to President Johnson to become assistant secretary for International Organi(ation Affairs, ta2ing the place of the then7incumbent. Q: 5arlan Cleveland. 2 SISCO: Harlan Cleveland, yes. I was called to Secretary Rus2Bs office and told this, and he said that since President Johnson did not 2now me77 Q: ou still hadn4t met him at all at that time2 SISCO: I hadnBt met him at all. CBut Secretary Rus2 saidD President Johnson wanted to meet me before he made this appointment, and would I get into a State Department car and go right over to the 8hite House because President Johnson wanted to tal2 to me. So I went over to the 8hite House, ill7prepared, and I was brought into that very small little office which is right neEt door to the Oval Office of the President. And I can recall that I introduced myself, and the President said that he had heard some good things about me from Secretary Rus2. But he really wanted to have a chat with me because, for one thing, he felt that presidential appointments were very important matters and he did not li2e to ma2e presidential appointments without 2nowing the people that he was appointing. 8e had about an hour and a half discussion. Q: 7iscussion. Now does that mean that you tal1ed as well as the President2 SISCO: Fes, I got to say a few things, although I must confess that the President had a little more to say than I did. )Laughter) Q: O1ay. SISCO: But, in any event, what we did discuss and I recall this very vividly, because it was my first encounter with President Johnson, to have the opportunity to sit down. Most of it was alone. At some point, I recall, Harry McPherson joined us in the conversation, but a good part of it was alone in that room. 8e discussed American policy in the 0nited NationsG we tal2ed about foreign policy across the board. And I thin2 the thing that struc2 me in that initial contact is the very broad view which President Johnson had of American foreign policy from, obviously, his vantage point. I canBt really recall a lot of the specific details. Q: 7id he offer the job to you during that conversation2 SISCO: 8ell, after we got through. This was the interesting thing: 8e tal2ed about ChinaG we tal2ed about 6ietnamG we tal2ed about the Middle EastG we tal2ed about a number of these issues. And after an hour and a halfBs discussion, he said the following and IBll never forget it: he said that he thought that Secretary Rus2 had made a good choice. He said, IIBm sure youBll do.I And he gave me some advice, which IBll get into in a moment. But he said that I should go bac2 and report to Secretary Rus2 that he, the President, was going to ma2e this appointment, and that Rus2 should immediately get in touch with my two senators, being from the state of Maryland, to clear that out, and that he intended to announce the appointment very shortly. At that time, I can recall, and IBm 3 sure that this happened at various stages of the administration, there was a particular concern about lea2s. Q: Always9 Not at various times, always9 SISCO: But in any event, one of the things which he underscored was the importance of holding information tightly, and I can recall that he said that if anything was to be lea2ed, there was always the opportunity that this could be done from the 8hite House in the proper way, and that one of the things that he would be watching in particular is that if there were matters that needed to be closely held, that it was important that I not only did that personally, but more important that I do everything that I should do to insure that nothing came out of the bureau that should not have. And that was my initial contact of an hour and a half. 8e hadnBt met. It was obvious that the purpose of the tal2 was to si(e me up and, after heBd drawn whatever conclusions he had drawn, he went right ahead and I was appointed assistant secretary of Internal Organi(ation. I was impressed both with the depth of the substance and the very fact that the President of the 0nited States would ta2e that much time in tal2ing to an individual really that was ta2ing essentially a sub7cabinet post, and not necessarily the most important sub7cabinet post. Q: ou4re a career appointee and not a political appointee. SISCO: ThatBs right, a career appointee rather than otherwise. So that was really my first contact. Q: 7id he give you any direct instructions as to specific things he wanted you to accomplish with the bureau2 SISCO: No, I thin2 the thing that again struc2 me and one of the things that he underscored was that I should call them as I saw them, that he was very interested in 2nowing what my views were, what my recommendations were, and that he was interested in people who analy(ed a problem and eEpressed their views on the given problem regardless of what the views of others might be. He made a particular point of it in this conversation with me, and I thin2 that it made an impression as well. Q: ou had served in the bureau right through the change of administrations and, of course, with the :nited Nations since the mid-fifties. Could you tell a discernable difference in viewpoint or emphasis or interest toward the :nited Nations or other international organi(ations by President Johnson as compared to, say, President Kennedy. SISCO: 8ell, of course, in this field of 0nited Nations affairs throughout that whole period, I was the deputy assistant secretary while President 4ennedy was in office. I would say, fundamentally, President Johnson3s policy reflected more of a continuity of 4 policy as it relates to what we did at the 0.N. rather than any sharp brea2. I will say this, in all candor, that with most of us, there was increasing concern about the disproportionate relationship between power and responsibility in the organi(ation, where the vote of the Maldive Islands 7 ninety thousand peopleG principal source of revenue, flying fish 7 that particular vote counting the same as the 0nited States. That was I thin2 a concern that became discernable in the 4ennedy Administration, but I thin2 it became increasingly magnified under the Johnson Administration. Moreover, one detected, also, a good deal of sensitivity about the criticism that was being directed at the 0nited States by the Secretary 5eneral, in particular with respect to 6ietnam. The Secretary 5eneral of the 0N held very strong views on this matter. They were views sharply critical of the 0nited States, and this, of course, complicated the situation. I can recall, probably, the other incident during this period, and that is my baptism by fire, so to spea2. Because my appointment as assistant secretary , more or less coincided with President JohnsonBs appointment of Arthur 5oldberg as the 0nited States ambassador to the 0.N. I had not 2nown Arthur 5oldberg either, never met him or the President. I can recall, even before I had been sworn in after the President had submitted my name to the Congress and made clear his intention to appoint me, that, in getting ready, I was involved in a series of rather eEtended briefings of Ambassador 5oldberg. And interestingly enough, in the first several wee2s that I too2 over as assistant secretary, I was confronted with a very immediate, delicate issue that involved some differences in view.
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